Jim -:- ***EXTRA EXTRA!! CHECK OUT NEW EV SITE!!*** -:- Sat, Jul 01, 2000 at 18:29:30 (GMT)

__ shp -:- feedback -:- Mon, Jul 03, 2000 at 12:37:25 (GMT)

__ __ Jim -:- Shp's IQ test -:- Mon, Jul 03, 2000 at 17:20:28 (GMT)

__ __ __ shp -:- You don't get it and probably never will but -:- Tues, Jul 04, 2000 at 00:32:55 (GMT)

__ Katie -:- I'm completely disgusted! -:- Sat, Jul 01, 2000 at 22:02:53 (GMT)

__ __ Katie -:- And here's one for me and Jerry -:- Sat, Jul 01, 2000 at 22:17:30 (GMT)

__ __ __ Deputy Dog -:- And here's one for Katie -:- Tues, Jul 04, 2000 at 04:23:12 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ Katie -:- And here's one for Katie -:- Tues, Jul 04, 2000 at 12:28:04 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ gerry -:- That's rotten advice, Dogg and Katie... -:- Tues, Jul 04, 2000 at 14:57:13 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ Katie -:- 'American Beauty', and trying Knowledge later -:- Tues, Jul 04, 2000 at 18:20:11 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ gerry -:- 'American Beauty' -:- Tues, Jul 04, 2000 at 18:42:43 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Katie -:- Story of my life, along with 'Ordinary People'(ot) -:- Tues, Jul 04, 2000 at 18:57:10 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ Deputy Dog -:- Relax gerry, It's only a movie -:- Tues, Jul 04, 2000 at 16:32:02 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ gerry -:- More dogshit from 'Deputy' -:- Tues, Jul 04, 2000 at 16:53:36 (GMT)

__ __ __ xxpremie -:- So, for for FIVE years -:- Mon, Jul 03, 2000 at 00:16:05 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ Katie -:- Yeah, that's right - I WAS stupid back then -:- Mon, Jul 03, 2000 at 01:58:38 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ xxpremie -:- Yeah, that's right - I WAS stupid back then -:- Mon, Jul 03, 2000 at 08:23:49 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ Katie -:- Yeah, that's right - I WAS stupid back then -:- Mon, Jul 03, 2000 at 15:02:56 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ xxpremie -:- Yeah, that's right - I WAS stupid back then -:- Mon, Jul 03, 2000 at 22:07:52 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Katie -:- Yeah, that's right -:- Mon, Jul 03, 2000 at 22:17:50 (GMT)

__ __ __ Powerman -:- And here's one for me and Jerry -:- Sun, Jul 02, 2000 at 00:09:13 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ Ben Lurking -:- And here's one for me and Jerry -:- Sun, Jul 02, 2000 at 01:46:36 (GMT)

__ __ __ Sir David -:- Present day EV cultists don't experience knowledge -:- Sat, Jul 01, 2000 at 23:16:41 (GMT)

__ __ __ Nigel -:- Ditto every word, Katie -:- Sat, Jul 01, 2000 at 22:59:32 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ bb -:- Ditto every word, Katie -:- Tues, Jul 04, 2000 at 10:12:51 (GMT)

__ __ __ Jerry -:- I'm with you, Katie -:- Sat, Jul 01, 2000 at 22:45:01 (GMT)

__ __ __ Susan -:- amen Katie me too... -:- Sat, Jul 01, 2000 at 22:38:34 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ Katie -:- Thanks, y'all... -:- Sun, Jul 02, 2000 at 00:17:02 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ Michael -:- Thanks, y'all... -:- Sun, Jul 02, 2000 at 00:25:44 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ Deputy Dog -:- Michael, you're a prick...(nt) -:- Tues, Jul 04, 2000 at 04:37:59 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ Lotus Eater -:- I missed that bit too -:- Sat, Jul 01, 2000 at 23:53:34 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ SB -:- I missed that bit too -:- Sun, Jul 02, 2000 at 13:36:37 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ Lotus Eater -:- Surnames -:- Sun, Jul 02, 2000 at 21:42:08 (GMT)

__ Roger eDrek -:- These pages need to be saved -:- Sat, Jul 01, 2000 at 21:14:30 (GMT)

__ __ SB -:- These pages need to be saved -:- Sat, Jul 01, 2000 at 21:20:15 (GMT)

__ Coach -:- Outrageous -:- Sat, Jul 01, 2000 at 21:05:56 (GMT)

__ __ SB -:- Outrageous: What comes to mind with your post... -:- Sat, Jul 01, 2000 at 21:12:46 (GMT)

__ __ __ Coach -:- What the fuck are you on about? -:- Sat, Jul 01, 2000 at 22:51:51 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ SB -:- What the fuck are you on about? -:- Sun, Jul 02, 2000 at 05:48:00 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ Coach -:- Got it. -:- Sun, Jul 02, 2000 at 13:57:18 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ sb -:- Good Point Coach!! MAHARAJI, everybody wants... -:- Sun, Jul 02, 2000 at 15:55:47 (GMT)

__ Nigel -:- Fucking hell, this is good shit! -:- Sat, Jul 01, 2000 at 20:49:59 (GMT)

__ Know It All -:- Maharaji Responsibility Campaign -:- Sat, Jul 01, 2000 at 19:26:42 (GMT)

__ JtF -:- FAQ re. Jagdeo -:- Sat, Jul 01, 2000 at 19:16:02 (GMT)

__ __ Susan -:- FAQ re. Jagdeo -:- Sat, Jul 01, 2000 at 19:48:12 (GMT)

__ __ __ SB -:- FAQ re. Jagdeo -:- Sat, Jul 01, 2000 at 21:17:36 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ Susan -:- thanks and yes, save that.... -:- Mon, Jul 03, 2000 at 01:12:56 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ SB -:- thanks and yes, save that.... -:- Mon, Jul 03, 2000 at 02:19:22 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ red butler -:- Another headache, another hearache -:- Sun, Jul 02, 2000 at 02:48:16 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ red -:- a little help here, please... -:- Sun, Jul 02, 2000 at 02:51:49 (GMT)

__ __ __ Nigel -:- * These are lies and character defamations.* -:- Sat, Jul 01, 2000 at 21:03:32 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ Susan -:- * These are lies and character defamations.* -:- Mon, Jul 03, 2000 at 01:15:50 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ Marianne -:- * These are lies and character defamations.* -:- Sat, Jul 01, 2000 at 22:00:55 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ Nigel -:- whitewash -:- Sat, Jul 01, 2000 at 23:16:58 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ Marianne -:- whitewash -:- Sun, Jul 02, 2000 at 00:53:33 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ Katie -:- I agree with Nigel -:- Sat, Jul 01, 2000 at 21:27:57 (GMT)

__ __ __ JtF -:- FAQ re. Jagdeo -:- Sat, Jul 01, 2000 at 20:44:59 (GMT)

__ Powerman -:- ***EXTRA EXTRA!! CHECK OUT NEW EV SITE!!*** -:- Sat, Jul 01, 2000 at 18:57:08 (GMT)

__ __ SB -:- Yes, but Powerman... -:- Sat, Jul 01, 2000 at 19:16:08 (GMT)

__ __ __ Powerman -:- I hope you're right, SB (nt) -:- Sun, Jul 02, 2000 at 00:26:33 (GMT)

__ SB -:- IS HE DIRTY OR WHAT, PREMIES??? -:- Sat, Jul 01, 2000 at 18:35:09 (GMT)

__ Jim -:- ***THERE'S EVEN A FAQ ALL ABOUT US!!!***** -:- Sat, Jul 01, 2000 at 18:32:57 (GMT)

__ __ Jim -:- So he's finally acknowledged us -:- Sat, Jul 01, 2000 at 18:53:07 (GMT)

__ __ __ Marianne -:- So he's finally acknowledged us -:- Sat, Jul 01, 2000 at 19:13:07 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ VP -:- So he's finally acknowledged us -:- Sun, Jul 02, 2000 at 14:29:26 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ Ben Lurking -:- So he's finally acknowledged us -:- Sun, Jul 02, 2000 at 18:49:26 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ VP -:- So he's finally acknowledged us -:- Sun, Jul 02, 2000 at 19:04:08 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ Good point Marianne -:- So he's finally acknowledged us -:- Sat, Jul 01, 2000 at 19:17:17 (GMT)

__ __ SB -:- ***THERE'S EVEN A FAQ ALL ABOUT US!!!***** -:- Sat, Jul 01, 2000 at 18:44:29 (GMT)

__ __ to Linda Gross:: -:- you are one of THE GREATEST SCUMS ON THIS EARTH!! -:- Sat, Jul 01, 2000 at 18:37:52 (GMT)

__ __ __ PCH -:- you are one of THE GREATEST SCUMS ON THIS EARTH!! -:- Sat, Jul 01, 2000 at 18:51:55 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ SB -:- That is exactly what I WANTED TO HEAR -:- Sat, Jul 01, 2000 at 19:02:44 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ PCH -:- That is exactly what I WANTED TO HEAR -:- Sat, Jul 01, 2000 at 19:44:09 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ Jim -:- I submitted my 'feedback' -:- Sat, Jul 01, 2000 at 19:20:38 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ Roger eDrek -:- But did you request a picture from Press Kit -:- Sat, Jul 01, 2000 at 21:21:30 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Jim -:- No, but I called them -:- Sun, Jul 02, 2000 at 03:36:07 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ GREAT IDEA JIM!!! -:- I submitted my 'feedback' -:- Sat, Jul 01, 2000 at 19:56:04 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Sorry FA -:- I forgot to sign: SB (nt) LOL -:- Sat, Jul 01, 2000 at 19:57:17 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Forum Admin -:- I forgot to sign: SB (nt) LOL -:- Sun, Jul 02, 2000 at 00:02:13 (GMT)

cq -:- The gentle art of brainwashing -:- Sat, Jul 01, 2000 at 14:13:02 (GMT)

__ SB -:- Great Post!! Thanks. (nt) -:- Mon, Jul 03, 2000 at 01:07:51 (GMT)

__ Stonor -:- A Must Read!!! . . . it doesn't stop at m's kind.. -:- Sun, Jul 02, 2000 at 22:09:25 (GMT)

SB -:- Michael Moore CONTACTED!! -:- Sat, Jul 01, 2000 at 13:12:47 (GMT)

Rob -:- 'My Guru is not fat' -:- Sat, Jul 01, 2000 at 03:41:27 (GMT)

__ Nigel -:- 'My Guru is not fat' -:- Sat, Jul 01, 2000 at 21:43:26 (GMT)

__ __ Jerry -:- Funny shit -:- Sat, Jul 01, 2000 at 23:19:34 (GMT)

Anarchist -:- A place to be thoroughly irresponsible -:- Fri, Jun 30, 2000 at 20:10:51 (GMT)

Nigel -:- A poll for premies only -:- Fri, Jun 30, 2000 at 19:29:57 (GMT)

__ Monica Lewis -:- A poll for premies only -:- Sat, Jul 01, 2000 at 05:53:12 (GMT)

__ Jim -:- Good questions, Nige (nt) -:- Fri, Jun 30, 2000 at 23:44:06 (GMT)

__ __ Baba -:- a poll for nigel -:- Sat, Jul 01, 2000 at 06:50:50 (GMT)

__ __ __ Nigel -:- a troll replies. -:- Sat, Jul 01, 2000 at 20:27:39 (GMT)

__ __ __ SB -:- ...and YOU can't even talk...GET HELP!! (NT) -:- Sat, Jul 01, 2000 at 18:45:49 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ Baba -:- ...and YOU can't even talk...GET HELP!! (NT) -:- Sun, Jul 02, 2000 at 06:22:48 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ SB -:- Insults is the best you can do? -:- Sun, Jul 02, 2000 at 11:40:26 (GMT)

Happy -:- The guru lineage before M -:- Fri, Jun 30, 2000 at 19:22:04 (GMT)

__ Anon -:- You've got it wrong I'm afraid. -:- Fri, Jun 30, 2000 at 23:51:01 (GMT)

__ __ Rob -:- Here's another possibility and why. -:- Sat, Jul 01, 2000 at 01:28:02 (GMT)

__ __ __ Katie -:- That book is in the Library of Congress -:- Sat, Jul 01, 2000 at 14:40:33 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ Rob -:- Thanks -:- Sun, Jul 02, 2000 at 03:29:26 (GMT)

__ __ __ Jim -:- Kirpal Singh's no stranger to old Vancouver prems -:- Sat, Jul 01, 2000 at 03:39:09 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ Rob -:- Kirpal Singh's no stranger to old Vancouver prems -:- Sat, Jul 01, 2000 at 03:51:22 (GMT)

__ __ __ Jean-Michel -:- What would be interesting -:- Sat, Jul 01, 2000 at 01:46:45 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ Anon -:- What would be interesting -:- Sat, Jul 01, 2000 at 12:17:12 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ Rob -:- It is worth pursuing -:- Sat, Jul 01, 2000 at 02:10:13 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ Jean-Michel -:- It is worth pursuing, of course ! It's all faked -:- Sat, Jul 01, 2000 at 08:18:54 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ Jim -:- Well, Dog, what do you think? -:- Sat, Jul 01, 2000 at 03:44:26 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ Rob -:- There's a strange absence of premies just now! (nt -:- Sat, Jul 01, 2000 at 03:55:18 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Jim -:- Here's how the premies will probably react -:- Sat, Jul 01, 2000 at 04:14:05 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Mel Bourne -:- Here's how the premies will probably react -:- Sat, Jul 01, 2000 at 10:31:10 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Rob -:- Here's how the premies will probably react -:- Sun, Jul 02, 2000 at 03:40:18 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Jim -:- Let's be just a LITTLE logical, Mel -:- Sat, Jul 01, 2000 at 18:07:15 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Jerry -:- How conveniently they forget -:- Sat, Jul 01, 2000 at 18:45:18 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Anon -:- Here's how the premies will probably react -:- Sat, Jul 01, 2000 at 12:33:21 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Mili -:- Here's how the premies will probably react -:- Sat, Jul 01, 2000 at 09:49:16 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Rob -:- You should join EV's PR team Mili. Please!!! nt -:- Sun, Jul 02, 2000 at 03:50:45 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Nigel -:- Here's how the premies will probably react -:- Sun, Jul 02, 2000 at 00:26:43 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Jerry -:- It matters, Mili -:- Sat, Jul 01, 2000 at 18:18:22 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Nigel -:- Great post Jerry, and... -:- Sat, Jul 01, 2000 at 23:29:33 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Jim -:- Great point, Jer -:- Sat, Jul 01, 2000 at 18:21:21 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Jim -:- Is this the same Mili who tried to shut us down? -:- Sat, Jul 01, 2000 at 18:11:27 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Rob -:- On the other hand... -:- Sat, Jul 01, 2000 at 04:26:31 (GMT)

__ __ Anon -:- These are the links to read. -:- Sat, Jul 01, 2000 at 00:12:26 (GMT)

__ Happy -:- cont. -:- Fri, Jun 30, 2000 at 19:35:45 (GMT)

__ __ Rob -:- Great work Happy. -:- Fri, Jun 30, 2000 at 22:43:22 (GMT)

__ __ Rob -:- Roger: 1st *Best* for drek reborn? (nt) -:- Fri, Jun 30, 2000 at 22:35:04 (GMT)

__ __ Jean-Michel -:- One wild guess on why Hans hasn't been chosen -:- Fri, Jun 30, 2000 at 20:54:24 (GMT)

Tim Matheson -:- My Guru Maharaj Ji's LILA -:- Fri, Jun 30, 2000 at 17:55:09 (GMT)

__ devotee -:- My Guru Maharaj Ji's LILA -:- Sat, Jul 01, 2000 at 19:24:47 (GMT)

__ X -:- Tims LOLA -:- Fri, Jun 30, 2000 at 20:09:27 (GMT)

__ Know It All -:- My Guru Maharaj Ji's LILA -:- Fri, Jun 30, 2000 at 19:33:51 (GMT)

__ __ Tim Matheson -:- My Guru Maharaj Ji's LILA-I'm but a worthless dog -:- Fri, Jun 30, 2000 at 20:13:59 (GMT)

__ __ __ Know It All -:- Yes, but Tim.... -:- Fri, Jun 30, 2000 at 20:18:02 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ Tim Matheson -:- Yes, but Tim.-As MY GURU told us once... -:- Fri, Jun 30, 2000 at 20:29:28 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ Know It All -:- Photos prove your point! -:- Fri, Jun 30, 2000 at 21:40:43 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ cq -:- Is it true that Maharaji's pet-handler ... -:- Fri, Jun 30, 2000 at 20:33:48 (GMT)

__ __ cq -:- 'LILA'??? you mean he IS divine??? (nt) -:- Fri, Jun 30, 2000 at 19:39:54 (GMT)

Jim -:- Anything good happening on the French Forum? -:- Fri, Jun 30, 2000 at 16:07:16 (GMT)

__ Stonor -:- You modest guy . . . (Spanish Forum?) -:- Fri, Jun 30, 2000 at 16:40:56 (GMT)

__ __ Jim -:- No, you got the WRONG guy (nt) -:- Fri, Jun 30, 2000 at 16:43:37 (GMT)

__ __ __ Stonor -:- Thanks for disillusionment-still good work (nt) -:- Fri, Jun 30, 2000 at 16:49:11 (GMT)

__ Jean-Michel -:- Nothing special! -:- Fri, Jun 30, 2000 at 16:35:10 (GMT)

__ __ cq -:- NON J-M, -:- Fri, Jun 30, 2000 at 19:19:01 (GMT)

Keith -:- Vote Keith..for president! -:- Fri, Jun 30, 2000 at 05:41:06 (GMT)

__ Jim -:- It's not your cologne that stinks, Keith -:- Fri, Jun 30, 2000 at 16:00:34 (GMT)

__ __ Frank Zappa -:- A little ditty -:- Fri, Jun 30, 2000 at 20:45:11 (GMT)

__ __ __ The original Frank -:- A little ditty -:- Fri, Jun 30, 2000 at 23:01:45 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ Brokenhearted Lord Keith -:- To all my on-line therapists. -:- Sat, Jul 01, 2000 at 01:51:46 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ Detective Sargeant Frank -:- To all my on-line therapists. -:- Sat, Jul 01, 2000 at 03:17:33 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ Keith -:- Me...wasting my time? -:- Sat, Jul 01, 2000 at 04:17:09 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ gerry -:- I can diagnose you, Keith -:- Sat, Jul 01, 2000 at 02:45:25 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ Lord Keith of The Cosmos -:- Another the-rapist. I'm so lucky. -:- Sat, Jul 01, 2000 at 04:21:52 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ gerry -:- You stole 'the-rapist' from me... -:- Sat, Jul 01, 2000 at 14:43:02 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Keith -:- I agree! -:- Sun, Jul 02, 2000 at 00:33:47 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Frank Banner -:- Another the-rapist. I'm so lucky. -:- Sat, Jul 01, 2000 at 14:04:11 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Master Keith -:- Another the-rapist. I'm so lucky. -:- Sun, Jul 02, 2000 at 00:36:40 (GMT)

__ __ Keith -:- Respect. -:- Fri, Jun 30, 2000 at 18:25:13 (GMT)

__ Mr Bubblehead -:- Sigh. -:- Fri, Jun 30, 2000 at 09:22:04 (GMT)

__ __ Lord Keith -:- Sigh. -:- Fri, Jun 30, 2000 at 09:43:38 (GMT)

__ __ __ Mr Bubblehead -:- Sihg -:- Fri, Jun 30, 2000 at 10:02:43 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ King of Kings(Keith) -:- out of the closet.. -:- Fri, Jun 30, 2000 at 11:51:05 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ JohnT -:- ... for G & M (nt) -:- Fri, Jun 30, 2000 at 11:59:36 (GMT)

__ Oliver -:- Shouldn't it be...Vote Keith..for prime minister! -:- Fri, Jun 30, 2000 at 06:30:13 (GMT)

__ __ Keith -:- Shouldn't it be...Vote Keith..for prime minister! -:- Fri, Jun 30, 2000 at 08:15:28 (GMT)

Date: Sat, Jul 01, 2000 at 18:29:30 (GMT) From: Jim Email: None To: Everyone Subject: ***EXTRA EXTRA!! CHECK OUT NEW EV SITE!!*** Message:

EV has revamped its site and has included new FAQ's intended, I suggest, to counter the building ex presence or whatever you want to call it. Here's a sample spin job: What were some of the changes made by Elan Vital? The early Indian organization that supported Maharaji’s teachings brought with it to the West many Hindu based practices, including vegetarianism and ashram (monastic type) living. These concepts were soon abandoned, and eventually disbanded. Some people were very happy to see an end to all these concepts and practices; others wanted them to continue. The 70s were a time when many young people embraced the values of what came to be known as the ‘drug culture’. The ‘ashrams’, which literally mean shelters, were established to provide people with an environment for serious and focused effort to pursue the benefits of Knowledge. Maharaji, at that time, though a young teenager, was recognized by several US states for the significant effect his teaching was having in leading people away from the ‘drug culture’. As such, ashrams worked for a while precisely because of what was going on socially in the era in which they came about, but at no time were they mandatory. At their most popular, only about 10% of people chose the ashram lifestyle. Maharaji, reflecting on those early days, observed: “When Knowledge started to spread around the world, it was obvious that it had to cross cultural barriers and not bring a little bit of India along with it. It was important to look at people, not what they believed in, or what their religion was. Even so, people were saying it was necessary to be a vegetarian and so on. But no one could give reasons why.”

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Date: Mon, Jul 03, 2000 at 12:37:25 (GMT) From: shp Email: None To: Jim Subject: feedback Message:

What were some of the changes made by Elan Vital? The early Indian organization that supported Maharaji’s teachings brought with it to the West many Hindu based practices, including vegetarianism and ashram (monastic type) living. -EV Site courtesy of Jim + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + Hmmmm. I have not read this entire thread yet. Also, I haven't seen the FAQ's except here. I do however remember Maharaji saying that the way a creature drinks water is a primary indicator of whether it has a carnivorous or herbivorous digestive system. When I heard this, I had already been pretty sold on being a vegetarian from the I-can-survive-quite-nicely-without-eating-animals place, but his take seemed to make more sense across the board, not just in a Hindu or Indian sense, but more as if from the OEM (original equipment manufacturer.) That's how I took it at least. Made sense and still does. But at some of his events, meat is still served, I believe out of compassion for those who have not yet stopped. He's got bigger fish to fry that to make people change their diets, as I see it. That is important, but not the highest priority. As for monastic living, I believe it has been around and in many cult-ures for thousands of years. The Western cult-ure already was aware of monstic living via the Church and IMHO saw nothing inheritly wrong with it as a way of life. It was these new intense people from a far away land in different clothes, with different smells of food, words, greetings and shouts in a foreign language, and new and different spiritual practices....it takes time for people to split fields and reach a balance, especially on a global scale. I believe that our generation has borne and is bearing a very large part of the burden of the pivotal turn that humanity is making to come to terms with itself and our planetary home. So even though I don't associate monastic life and vegetarianism with Hindu or Indian origin, and I think that it was just a cult-ural time of splitting fields and finding a balance, still looking for it - Westerners wearing saffron and shaving their heads and Indian mahatmas playing golf, stuff like that - I still know that the Knowledge is what it is, despite anything else. Monasticism and/or vegetarianism can be a great experience or a nightmare. All depends how the program is administered. No thing is evil or good in itself, but becomes one or the other in the hands of a human being and the motive or their heart. shp

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Date: Mon, Jul 03, 2000 at 17:20:28 (GMT) From: Jim Email: None To: shp Subject: Shp's IQ test Message:

Those are very interesting observtations, I'm sure, shp. Very interesting indeed. But tell me, what, if anything, is WRONG or INCOMPLETE about EV's answers? (Now don't anyone help him out. This is Shp's question!)

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Date: Tues, Jul 04, 2000 at 00:32:55 (GMT) From: shp Email: None To: Jim Subject: You don't get it and probably never will but Message:

you might. It's not about IQ. And just because I don't match wits with you doesn't mean I don't have any...I just don't want to waste them on you. If you cannot discern that I have taken issue with Elan Vital on their explanations, then perhaps it is you who needs to be tested for comprehension.

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Date: Sat, Jul 01, 2000 at 22:02:53 (GMT) From: Katie Email: None To: Jim et al. Subject: I'm completely disgusted! Message:

Jim (and all), As you know, I tend to give everyone who posts on here a break, including premies. However, the following quotes from the EV pages really made me angry. If they are not outright lies, they are definitely unbelievably biased and inaccurate representations. (BTW, all italicized material that follows is copyright Elan Vital/Enjoyinglife.org, 2000) First, they say (in response to the ex-premie sites) We are aware that criticisms, including unsubstantiated rumors and allegations have appeared on the web, most often placed by anonymous posters. This is an outright fabrication. Brian and I have NEVER been anonymous; neither has Jean-Michel; and neither has David Stirling. Furthermore, the most outspoken criticism of Maharaji on the forum has been made by people who give their REAL names, and even include personal information: Jim, JW, Anthony, Susan, Abi, Marianne, Michael D., Helen, Charlie, Lee...and the list goes on and on. They continue: Whereas some people might be initially disturbed by these, we believe in and endorse everyone’s right to free speech within the boundaries of decency and fairness. I am sorry, but the right to free speech (at least in the U.S.) has nothing to do with decency and fairness. I suggest that the US contributors to Enjoyinglife.org who formatted this question and answer watch the movie 'The People VS Larry Flynt'. I am no big fan of Larry Flynt, but the movie is instructive. (Furthermore, I'd like to say that we put NOTHING on ex-premie.org that we don't think is decent or fair.) Then, they write: Has Elan Vital taken action to protect its reputation? Yes. Elan Vital, to protect its copyrights, has written letters to the ISPs involved where it believes there have been infringements of its copyrights. As a not-for-profit organization, we were reluctant to use the donations of our contributors for this activity. However we wanted you to know that we felt it appropriate to use our resources on this occasion to protect our rights. Failure to do so could jeopardize our ability to do so in the future. Well, it's now been documented that Elan Vital wrote this WITHOUT ever having contacted the ISP of ex-premie.org (which now includes the EV/DLM papers). So apparently, EV believes that none of the material on ex-premie.org infringes on any of their copyrights. (Glad to know that, by the way - and I appreciate their posting that statement in public!) They also clearly state that they have used premie donations to pay the law firm (a very expensive law firm, I might add) who handled these supposed copyright infringement, or to protect their rights. Unbelievable. If I were an EV contributor, I would think twice about sending them any more money for 'propagation'. I am sympathetic to some of the premies who post on the forum: Mel, Elaine, Deputy Dog, etc. (and I do not want to argue about this statement!) But honestly, these statements, and the other statements, posted in the FAQ are mind-boggling, and, in some cases - for example, saying that they had contacted Jagdeo's victims - are outright fabrications! How can you contribute or even lend credence to an organization, and its associated leader, who would post something like these FAQ's! This has NOTHING to do with the 'experience of Knowledge'! Sincerely, Katie

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Date: Sat, Jul 01, 2000 at 22:17:30 (GMT) From: Katie Email: None To: all Subject: And here's one for me and Jerry Message:

(italicized materiel is copyright 2000, ElanVital/Enjoyinglife.org) Some people say Knowledge didn’t work for them. Why doesn’t it work for everyone? As with any practice, Knowledge requires commitment and continuing effort to achieve what it has to offer and not everyone wants to make that kind of effort. This really makes me angry. When I think of all the times I sat there for an HOUR in the morning and an HOUR at night, and tried to 'experience' Knowledge (I am not even mentioning the all-night meditations)! I was also committed enough to attend every festival during the time I was a premie, to go to satsang almost every night (I lived one hour away), and to give 10% of my miniscule income to Maharaji. Not to mention doing service whenever I got the chance - selling 'And it is Divine' subscriptions door-to-door, selling my possessions to help fund Millenium, working as WPC at festivals, and blah, blah, blah. Yet Knowledge never 'worked for me' - and I felt plenty guilty about myself because of that. I wanted to make 'that kind' of effort and I DID make 'that kind' of effort - for FIVE years! It angers me that someone can write these FAQ's and blow me off for not trying hard enough.

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Date: Tues, Jul 04, 2000 at 04:23:12 (GMT) From: Deputy Dog Email: None To: Katie Subject: And here's one for Katie Message:

Katie, Thanks for the earlier kind words. You say in the above post, 'Yet Knowledge never 'worked for me' - and I felt plenty guilty about myself because of that. I wanted to make 'that kind' of effort and I DID make 'that kind' of effort - for FIVE years! It angers me that someone can write these FAQ's and blow me off for not trying hard enough.' I'm sorry you felt guilty because Knowledge never worked for you. My advice would be to do something else. Choose a method that uses your natural tendencies, that fits in with your temperament, what you are already good at. My advice would be to keep looking until you find a method that works for you. For example, if you are athletic, sitting motionless for an hour would be excruciating, so do something like t'ai chi, kung fu, or yoga. If you are more intellectually inclined, read Buddhist doctrine, practice vipassana meditation, NLP, or TM. If you are emotional, do Sufi dancing, singing or chanting, or get involved in Subud or the Forum. Choose a method that feels right for YOU. Not anybody else! YOU! If it's not right for you it's not right. Then promise yourself that you will to do it for a month or so. Do whatever you can to be in the flow. The purpose of all spiritual and psychological work is to free us from our conditioning, i.e. our identification with our thoughts and senses, to be happier, calmer, more independent, self-reliant, free and self determined. We should all do everything in our power to enjoy this life as best we can. You can always give Knowledge a try later. The character Ricky Fitz said in American Beauty, 'This bag was just dancing with me, like a little kid begging me to play with it - for 15 minutes. That's the day I realised that there is this, entire life, behind things, and this incredibly benevolent force, who wanted me to know that there is no reason to be afraid, ever. A video is a poor excuse I know, but it helps me remember. I need to remember.' We all need to remember.

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Date: Tues, Jul 04, 2000 at 12:28:04 (GMT) From: Katie Email: None To: Deputy Dog Subject: And here's one for Katie Message:

Hi Dep - Actually I have found some things that work for me - visualization of colors and light seems to be the best so far. Have also done some of the things you mentioned. (Thanks, by the way!). I'm glad you don't feel that people didn't 'experience Knowledge' because of lack of commitment and effort - or at least you don't appear to feel that way. I know that some people (both premies and exes) do experience a lot by using the Knowledge meditation techniques. However, others do not, and the idea that Knowledge is the ONLY way (as promoted by EV and M) is extremely short-sighted, not to mention insulting and obnoxious. Hope you are well - guess you really liked that movie, huh? Will have to see it - other people here have recommended it highly. Take care - Katie

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Date: Tues, Jul 04, 2000 at 14:57:13 (GMT) From: gerry Email: None To: Katie Subject: That's rotten advice, Dogg and Katie... Message:

I would seriously warn you off that fucking movie. You WILL NOT like it, my opinion, given what little I know of your background. Why is it we have to DO something to GET...what ??? Isn't 'life' good enough for these people? Here's the real purpose of Guru Dogg's diatribe: We should all do everything in our power to enjoy this life as best we can. You can always give Knowledge a try later. Insidious, odious, sneaky, deceptive, are only a few of the descriptive words which come to mind here. How about relaxing and loving the people around you? It's no 'magic technique' but it 'works' for everyone, guaranteed.

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Date: Tues, Jul 04, 2000 at 18:20:11 (GMT) From: Katie Email: None To: gerry Subject: 'American Beauty', and trying Knowledge later Message:

Hi Gerry and Dep - Selene HIGHLY recommended that movie to me - she thought I would like it. Jean-Michel said it was really depressing. So why don't you think I would like it, Gerry? I'm serious, because there are some movies I cannot stand because of one scene in them. Dep, I missed the line 'you can always try Knowledge later' - I read your post before I had my contact lenses in. I've got to admit that that idea makes me kind of sick. I know that a lot of exes like and still practice the Knowledge meditation, but I also know a couple of exes who get far more benefit from other types of meditation or spiritual practices (not to mention therapeutic practices.) And I would never EVER be able to be 'grateful to Maharaji' because of the amount of associated concepts he has promoted and asked people to swallow so they can received four easily learned (and widely available) meditation techniques. Example being my quote from Elan Vital above about why Knowledge doesn't work for everyone - what a guilt trip! Also, Gerry, I agree that 'relaxing and loving the people around you' is VERY helpful - in fact, I do some of that when I visualize. It's great. It's just hard for some people - like me - to relax sometimes, but I think I have found the way to do it. Take care, both of you - Katie

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Date: Tues, Jul 04, 2000 at 18:42:43 (GMT) From: gerry Email: None To: Katie Subject: 'American Beauty' Message:

Since you asked, Katie: Most of the movie revolves around a forty something year old man lusting after a young teenage girl and at one point he gets her naked and almost has sex with her. Another highlight is the abusive homophobic father next door who beats the shit out of his son to the point of drawing blood. Then that father turns out to be gay. A real nice way to portray gay people, don't you think? Other delights include the end where the 'good' father is shot in head by the 'bad' (gay repressed) father, with the requisite splash of blood on the wall. Of course, the gay repressed, wife and son beating father is a military man, so we get that in there too. Yeah, it was a real 'American Beauty.' And the twirling bag scene was oh so 'inspiring.' Not.

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Date: Tues, Jul 04, 2000 at 18:57:10 (GMT) From: Katie Email: None To: gerry Subject: Story of my life, along with 'Ordinary People'(ot) Message:

I'm still not sure, Gerry - I'll talk to Selene about it. I do know that I wouldn't want my little brother to see it! I managed to avoid most of the more violent stuff, but he experienced it. He cannot even go to ACOA meetings because they are 'too heavy' and he has too many repressed memories. Can definitely see why you wouldn't like it. Brian might feel the same way. Thanks - Katie

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Date: Tues, Jul 04, 2000 at 16:32:02 (GMT) From: Deputy Dog Email: None To: gerry Subject: Relax gerry, It's only a movie Message:

How about relaxing and loving the people around you? It's no 'magic technique' but it 'works' for everyone, guaranteed. Sounds like excellent advice to me gerry, a bit simplistic but quite workable. And if I'm relaxed, and clear, and happy, less at the effect of my past conditioning, above it all, it's probably going to be a little easier to do. In fact I'd probably be more relaxed and loving without even having to think about it. And what's all this crap about Dogg's diatribe? It's a post, where I'm sharing my opinion. IMO the disciplines I mention in my post help free people up. Katie can practice the techniques of Knowledge on her own. Insidious, odious, sneaky, deceptive, are only a few of the descriptive words which come to mind here. Hey, relax pal. Take your own advice. Buy the world a Coke or something. And that film that you think is so lousy won five Academy Awards. Life is good enough for me, but I can always make it better. IMO we carry heaven and hell with us. I know what I want to be in contact with.

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Date: Tues, Jul 04, 2000 at 16:53:36 (GMT) From: gerry Email: None To: Deputy Dog Subject: More dogshit from 'Deputy' Message:

So 'relaxing and loving the people around you' is simplistic. Yes, I guess it is to someone like you who is as you said ''above it all.'' And yes, I'm quite sure you are above it all, ''Deputy Dog.'' And what's all this crap about Dogg's diatribe? It's a post, where I'm sharing my opinion. IMO the disciplines I mention in my post help free people up. Katie can practice the techniques of Knowledge on her own. Is this an embedded command, ''Katie can practise the techniques of Knowledge on her own?'' You mentioned NLP. Thanks for ''sharing.'' Hey, relax pal. Take your own advice. Buy the world a Coke or something. And that film that you think is so lousy won five Academy Awards. Who says I'm not relaxed? Of course, I haven't spent the time under my blankie like you have, Dogg, so my ''clarity'' ''appreciation fo life'' and ''graditude'' could never measure up to yours. And where did I say it was a ''lousy movie?'' Don't put words in my mouth, Dog. And yes, that's an example of you insidious dishonesty. I don't think all of Hollywood's wonderful award winning movies are appropriate for everyone, but Katie's a big girl and she can decide for herself. I just wanted to provide a dissenting view. Is that ok with you ''Deputy Dog?'' Why anyone would take you seriously, a coward who hides behind an anonymous cartoon character name, is beyond me. Life is good enough for me, but I can always make it better. IMO we carry heaven and hell with us. I know what I want to be in contact with. Well, Dog, get under your blankie and make it all better then. Yes, we all have so much control over our lives, don't we? Indeed we ''create our own reality,'' right? Get the fuck out of here with your new age poison, you wanker.

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Date: Mon, Jul 03, 2000 at 00:16:05 (GMT) From: xxpremie Email: None To: Katie Subject: So, for for FIVE years Message:

YOU DID make 'that kind' of effort! AND 'Yet Knowledge never 'worked for me'' REALLY A SMART PERSON, huh?

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Date: Mon, Jul 03, 2000 at 01:58:38 (GMT) From: Katie Email: None To: xxpremie Subject: Yeah, that's right - I WAS stupid back then Message:

I was 16 when I received Knowledge. I believed COMPLETELY in everything Maharaji and the premies told me about Knowledge. When I didn't experience anything, I thought it was my fault - that there was something wrong with me - that I should try harder - that I wasn't doing 'enough'. Yes, I was really stupid. I was also very young, and really wanted peace of mind - and I thought I could get it through practicing Knowledge. I finally wised up when I was 21 and started going to college (I had dropped out of high school to be a full-time premie). You are correct that I wasn't a very smart person then. However, I'm a lot smarter now.

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Date: Mon, Jul 03, 2000 at 08:23:49 (GMT) From: xxpremie Email: None To: Katie Subject: Yeah, that's right - I WAS stupid back then Message:

What did you say when you gave 'satsang'?

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Date: Mon, Jul 03, 2000 at 15:02:56 (GMT) From: Katie Email: None To: xxpremie Subject: Yeah, that's right - I WAS stupid back then Message:

Mostly, I was too shy to give satsang - I had a hard time speaking in public. I cannot really remember what I said when I did - probably parrotted the typical thing that everyone else was saying (hey, I was a TEENAGER - sheesh!). I know I handed out leaflets and sincerely (I thought) told people about M and K. You can read my journey entry - it is under Katie (Mischa) if you want - it will give you some idea of my experiences back then.

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Date: Mon, Jul 03, 2000 at 22:07:52 (GMT) From: xxpremie Email: None To: Katie Subject: Yeah, that's right - I WAS stupid back then Message:

'AND Yet Knowledge never 'worked for me' Quote from your journey 'I never was able to meditate very successfully: I only saw light very occasionally (doughnut); I did hear music, but not very often, never tasted nectar, and had problems concentrating on the Word. I realize now that I was suffering from extreme anxiety coupled with some depression - how could I hope to meditate if I couldn't even relax?'

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Date: Mon, Jul 03, 2000 at 22:17:50 (GMT) From: Katie Email: None To: xxpremie Subject: Yeah, that's right Message:

I said that, and meant it. I have since realized that that 'doughnut' light thing (people used to diss it in satsang) was an optic nerve pressure thing. Yes, I heard 'music', but I heard better, clearer, and more longer-lasting music on drugs - I think they both came from inside my head (I can still hear it now sometimes, when I am subjected to too much white noise). Anxiety and depression - what can I say? The point back then was that Knowledge was supposed to cure everything and make it possible for people to know peace. I realize Maharaji has changed his tune on this, but tell me how many people you know who do NOT suffer from either anxiety or depression - at least occasionally. Anyway, my point was that my 'non-experience' was not related to lack of effort and lack of committment - as said in in the Elan Vital FAQ. If they would have been honest and said that Knowledge didn't work for some people no matter what, I wouldn't have posted the very first post that you replied to. BTW, why do you care so much about this? Katie

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Date: Sun, Jul 02, 2000 at 00:09:13 (GMT) From: Powerman Email: None To: Katie Subject: And here's one for me and Jerry Message:

I can honestly say I gave every last ounce of effort in practicing knowledge and devoting myself to Guru Maharaj Ji. It took a long time to realize the problem wasn't with my effort but with the Guru and his 'knowledge'. The reason the Guru's 'teachings' don't work is because they're empty. How convenient to blame the victim. Can anybody say a*b*u*s*e?

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Date: Sun, Jul 02, 2000 at 01:46:36 (GMT) From: Ben Lurking Email: benlurken@aol.com To: Powerman Subject: And here's one for me and Jerry Message:

If only a few students failed it would be fair to place some blame on the students, when very few if any succeed one must believe the teacher is incable of teaching or the teacher is lying, which is pretty ironic -maybe he should be 'de-gurued'. Even the worst public schools have a higher success rate than M/EV. No - M is a scam artist, not a teacher, he lied to us, misrepresented himself to us, and abused the students in general. If only India had a bureau of gurus (BUG) that we could report him to.

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Date: Sat, Jul 01, 2000 at 23:16:41 (GMT) From: Sir David Email: sirdavid12@hotmail.com To: Katie Subject: Present day EV cultists don't experience knowledge Message:

The people who write such things, Katie, are not experiencing this phenomenon called 'knowledge'. They are experiencing a group mindset which is held together by collective peer grouping and by Maharaji's Emperor's New Clothes trick. Always remember, very few premies are experiencing anything from meditation. For most it is just an emotional dependence upon Maharaji and his organisation.

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Date: Sat, Jul 01, 2000 at 22:59:32 (GMT) From: Nigel Email: fitzroy@liverpool.ac.uk To: Katie Subject: Ditto every word, Katie Message:

The 'willing to make that effort' shit is so pathetic when you have Anth, Hal, Jerry, Rog, BB and many others with these twenty-year plus pedigrees saying 'Actually we tried it...' In my own four-year, mega-commitment phase I squeezed out every last drop of yearning, trying, straining, commiting, pranaming, praying, waiting, hoping, relaxing, letting going, serving, donating, crying, listening carefully to the Lord of the Universe and hanging on in... For the next six years (after burning the mags and pictures upon request) of still believing I rebuked myself for having not tried hard enough... God, it is SO easy for an intelligent person to be stupid. So sad that these EV spin doctors are stupid still.

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Date: Tues, Jul 04, 2000 at 10:12:51 (GMT) From: bb Email: None To: Nigel Subject: Ditto every word, Katie Message:

Thanks for the mention Nigel. Who in thier opinion HAS 'made enough effort'?

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Date: Sat, Jul 01, 2000 at 22:45:01 (GMT) From: Jerry Email: None To: Katie Subject: I'm with you, Katie Message:

No matter how hard you try, it will always be YOUR fault why Knowledge isn't 'working'. You will never, ever be told that it just might not be for you. A little more effort, a little more effort, that's all you'll hear. You'll even be told, and I have heard M say so himself, that people who are 'struggling with Knowledge', as he put it, really are experiencing all the joy and bliss that K has to offer, but they can't accept it. Yes, all you struggling premies, the master has decreed that you just don't want to be happy, and that Knowledge is flawless. But you? You're fucked up! Why are you struggling? Don't you know that Knowledge WORKS? What's wrong with you? This is the kind of support those of us who 'struggled' got from our wise and compassionate master. We were told to take a long, hard look at the Emperor's new clothes and blame ourselves if we couldn't see them. My advice to anybody who hasn't found what they're looking for through K is to give yourself a break and let go of it. You might be scared that there's nowhere left to go without K (hey, M says so himself), but that's just another lie you're forced to swallow. Just stop banging your head against the wall. You'll be glad you did. You'll taste freedom and love it. I know I have.

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Date: Sat, Jul 01, 2000 at 22:38:34 (GMT) From: Susan Email: None To: Katie Subject: amen Katie me too... Message:

I believed and tried and gave an important part of my life to this cult ( and yes, it is and was a cult by the defining qualities they provided ). Just a little slick slap in the face to the ex's, those who knowledge failed simply didn't try hard enough. Those who are still around, well, they are superior. How convenient for them. No need to prove anything, if you left, by definition, you failed. Ah, cult logic. Don't ya just love it. And, what part of their defense about why they are not a cult wouldn't work for a Scientologist or a moonie? That little dittie concinced me that they had read the MRC letter! And, then there is the 'Maharaji never said he was God' Nope, I do not recall Maharaji ever saying he was God. But he did let us sing him this song, every morning, and every night, at every festival, and before we prostrated ourselves at his feet. ( always referred to as His feet ) Our Lord is the maker Of all things created. He keeps them and brings them all home to his Word. Our Lord is the Superior Power in Person. I bow down before Such a Wonderful Lord. Did I miss the part where he said 'just kidding?'

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Date: Sun, Jul 02, 2000 at 00:17:02 (GMT) From: Katie Email: None To: Susan et al. Subject: Thanks, y'all... Message:

This 'answer' to a Frequently Asked Question is obviously designed to pull in those who tend to feel that they are 'not doing enough' - this description fits me exactly. So, in this case, I agree with EV, this part of the message 'has not changed' - in other words, if you don't experience anything, it's YOUR fault. P.S. I hope my other post shows up soon :).

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Date: Sun, Jul 02, 2000 at 00:25:44 (GMT) From: Michael Email: None To: Katie Subject: Thanks, y'all... Message:

This 'you didn't try hard enough' crap is the same garbage that Televangelists and Faith Healers (I hope I haven't offended the Dogg) tell people when they aren't healed: 'you don't have enough faith!' It is sick, it is wrong, and it is manipulative. I guess that M and his minions are getting a bit worried, though! Padre

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Date: Tues, Jul 04, 2000 at 04:37:59 (GMT) From: Deputy Dog Email: None To: Michael Subject: Michael, you're a prick...(nt) Message:

nt

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Date: Sat, Jul 01, 2000 at 23:53:34 (GMT) From: Lotus Eater Email: None To: Susan Subject: I missed that bit too Message:

Dear Susan, thanks for that, I guess I must have had my fingers in my ears! Did you note the bit about 'recommended that you practise for one hour a day' Could it be that a pudgy little someone has finally twigged that too much meditation is not good for you????, feels a litigious little prickle at the back of his neck?? Ooh, is he saying we were right when we translated m i n i m u u m mm into maximum??? God, it's funny. I am going to try and talk with a friend of mine on the PR team, I want to reassure myself that he is still the same intelligent funny and honourable man that I remember. Lesley

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Date: Sun, Jul 02, 2000 at 13:36:37 (GMT) From: SB Email: None To: Lotus Eater Subject: I missed that bit too Message:

Are u from Michigan? Is your last name Dailey?

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Date: Sun, Jul 02, 2000 at 21:42:08 (GMT) From: Lotus Eater Email: None To: SB Subject: Surnames Message:

Dear SB, No I am not, I have lived in Australia since 1975. I signed up for the joy ride, our holy hamster's wheel of hell, in London, my birthplace, in 1973. LE

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Date: Sat, Jul 01, 2000 at 21:14:30 (GMT) From: Roger eDrek Email: drek@oz.net To: Jim Subject: These pages need to be saved Message:

I cannot believe this stuff! The fools! Neither confirm nor deny is always the best PR avoidance technique. Read my lips, I did not have sex with that woman. It will be interesting to see how long these pages remain. I will bet that they might be pulled in the near future. I particularily enjoyed: 'we believe in and endorse everyone’s right to free speech within the boundaries of decency and fairness'. Sorry, to break the news to you, but that is not the Consitutional nor the legal definition of Free Speech in the United States and especially in regards to a Public Person such as Maharaji. Indeed, we have seen the efforts of Elan Vital to impose their limited definition of Free Speech on others. I'm quite relieved to know that Maharaji is not the Lord of the Universe.

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Date: Sat, Jul 01, 2000 at 21:20:15 (GMT) From: SB Email: None To: Roger eDrek Subject: These pages need to be saved Message:

This remarkable event of Elan Vital new 'info' deserves to reach the press; sound and loud!! Lets push some more!!! I'm busy like hell...hehehehhehe.... SB

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Date: Sat, Jul 01, 2000 at 21:05:56 (GMT) From: Coach Email: None To: Jim Subject: Outrageous Message:

Just goes to show. You never know what's around the corner. Maximum respect - currently fashionable due to Jim's poll - to all the X's. One thing I'm REALLY curious about. Did the push for this come from Maharaji or his stooges and lawyers? Or both. Anyone? Coach

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Date: Sat, Jul 01, 2000 at 21:12:46 (GMT) From: SB Email: None To: Coach Subject: Outrageous: What comes to mind with your post... Message:

is that 'not even a leaf moves without Maharaji's will'...and that is the total truth. Right, David Smith? Great devotee of God encarnated, Guru Maharaji, You are his right hand, the 'link' between the world and Maharaji! Come and talk to us, exes, would you? It would be a pleasure to remind you of some past words of yours... SB

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Date: Sat, Jul 01, 2000 at 22:51:51 (GMT) From: Coach Email: None To: SB Subject: What the fuck are you on about? Message:

SB, What the fuck's all this David Smith shit?? If I'm David Smith then you're fuckin' Mata Ji. Explain your post. Coach

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Date: Sun, Jul 02, 2000 at 05:48:00 (GMT) From: SB Email: None To: Coach Subject: What the fuck are you on about? Message:

...hmmmm.fuck....well.... How do you think Elan Vital changed their site:Because they read THIS site!! If he comes here to read to inform the 'boss' I can tell Smith how much I love him!! fuck, fuck... SB

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Date: Sun, Jul 02, 2000 at 13:57:18 (GMT) From: Coach Email: None To: SB Subject: Got it. Message:

SB, OK, I got it. I took hold of the wrong end of the stick. Sorry. Cancel the fuckin'. The last contact I had wih the EVil Empire featured David Smith. Talk about sickly. A complete asshole. It was a blatant trawl for cash thinly disguised as a 'presentation'. Very informative if you really need to know how many times Maharaji has flown to the moon and back. Very little about where the actual MONEY goes. BTW, this one I love. Maharaji has an 'openly successful lifestyle.' Successful at what? And it's totally secretive. Coach

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Date: Sun, Jul 02, 2000 at 15:55:47 (GMT) From: sb Email: None To: Coach Subject: Good Point Coach!! MAHARAJI, everybody wants... Message:

...to know WHERE YOUR MONEY COMES FROM? That one is a funny one...succesful...successful at stealing by manipulation the money earned by someone else!! Maharaji is very successful at that... I would love to see Elan Vital explain that one in behalf of Lord Maharaji!! He would never talk to a 'commoner', directly, right? He is too busy getting drunk and dreaming his next wordly desire. Poor deluded premies!

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Date: Sat, Jul 01, 2000 at 20:49:59 (GMT) From: Nigel Email: fitzroy@liverpool.ac.uk To: Jim Subject: Fucking hell, this is good shit! Message:

I mean this, and the stuff you've posted lower down, Jim... I always thought that either failing to address, or attempting silence your critics was the cult's biggest weakness - as with the last egg-on-face House of Drek incident. One way or another it always backfires. But trying to engage with your critics will be twice as self-destructive, I have just realised. I mean the first thing every new aspirant (or practising premie who never knew dissent existed) will now browse the web for 'Maharaji' just to see what the fuss is all about. The next thing they will do is get the fuck out. Praise the lord for cult stupidity!

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Date: Sat, Jul 01, 2000 at 19:26:42 (GMT) From: Know It All Email: None To: Jim Subject: Maharaji Responsibility Campaign Message:

I think that this is all in response to the Maharaji Responsibility Campaign. KIA

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Date: Sat, Jul 01, 2000 at 19:16:02 (GMT) From: JtF Email: None To: all Subject: FAQ re. Jagdeo Message:

Has Elan Vital covered up alleged past improper behavior? Elan Vital’s policy is that everyone, whether a paid employee or volunteer, must behave with respect and decency. In this respect our guidelines are similar to those of any other responsible profit or not-for-profit organization. ElanVital adheres to widely accepted practices in dealing with reasonable complaints made against any of our personnel, using established internal and external disciplinary procedures and, if necessary, in conjunction with relevant external legislation. We are aware that some opposing sites make allegations in particular against one individual concerning events alleged to have happened 25 years ago. This kind of behavior, if true, is completely unacceptable to Elan Vital and we would be as appalled as anyone if this was found to be true. The only information we have comes from postings on these sites. We were able to contact two individuals who made these allegations and asked that they help shed light on what happened but as yet have received no cooperation from them. As it stands Elan Vital has still received no direct information from any of the alleged victims and to date no complaint has been filed with Elan Vital or with any authorities. --------------------------------------------------------------------------------

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Date: Sat, Jul 01, 2000 at 19:48:12 (GMT) From: Susan Email: None To: JtF Subject: FAQ re. Jagdeo Message:

I think the 'contact' they are referring to is via Anth via Glenn Whitaker. Both Abi and I felt that it was insulting to ask us to 'contact' them now when they refuse to acknowlege they were ever contacted before. I for one am very tempted to contact them formally again. But the fact that I did so, twice before, and that this has been conveniently forgotten makes me feel it would be bizarre to deal with these people as if they really give a shit about anything except covering their own asses.

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Date: Sat, Jul 01, 2000 at 21:17:36 (GMT) From: SB Email: None To: Susan Subject: FAQ re. Jagdeo Message:

Hi Susan! Go for it! How dare they laugh about all???? In case you need them, I have an old but in very good shape Divine Times magazine with pictures of all the kids in Unity Church. Don't let them and find enjoyment in doing something, otherwise, is letting them win again. He has NO HEART!!! All my love to you, SB

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Date: Mon, Jul 03, 2000 at 01:12:56 (GMT) From: Susan Email: None To: SB Subject: thanks and yes, save that.... Message:

I think it could be important, you never know.

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Date: Mon, Jul 03, 2000 at 02:19:22 (GMT) From: SB Email: None To: Susan Subject: thanks and yes, save that.... Message:

I have them, anytime...safe. Love, SB

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Date: Sun, Jul 02, 2000 at 02:48:16 (GMT) From: red butler Email: None To: SB Subject: Another headache, another hearache Message:

''Fucking bastards,'' thought big M as he slid into the back of the waiting Mercedes. ''I'd like to take that goddam Constitution and shove it up each one of those ex-premies' asses.'' The stupid lawyers had let him down again. Everybody was always letting him down and all he did was give, give, give. ''And that fucking old man Jagdeo,'' he ruminated, ''I wish to god somebody would smash HIS skull in. Where's Fakiranand when I need him? They wouldn't get away with this shit in India.'' He never did really trust these western eggheads, though the money was good. ''That new website better be up and it better be perfect or heads are gonna roll.'' The ride back to Malibu was gloomy. Not even Monica could cheer him up, not that she didn't try. ''Oh fuck,'' he muttered, as she fiddled with his zipper, ''I'm not in the mood for that shit.'' Monica pulled away and leaned against the opposite door. M reached for one of the ready rolls he knew would be next to cognac in the bar. ''That's all I need at a time like this'' he screamed, ''for you to start pouting.'' Monica knew the signs. First a little smoke, then the cognac and by evening the mirror would come out and she'd spent the next two days in hell. 'God,' she prayed silently, ''if I ever thought it would turn out like this, I'd never've left the LA...''

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Date: Sun, Jul 02, 2000 at 02:51:49 (GMT) From: red Email: None To: fa's Subject: a little help here, please... Message:

Another headache, another heartache. Can you fix?

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Date: Sat, Jul 01, 2000 at 21:03:32 (GMT) From: Nigel Email: fitzroy@liverpool.ac.uk To: Susan Subject: * These are lies and character defamations.* Message:

We were able to contact two individuals who made these allegations and asked that they help shed light on what happened but as yet have received no cooperation from them. Susan, as you just said, and as we all know, EV did not contact you. They are pretending that they did but that you were uncooperative. What a shower of creeps, just piling on insult to injury... Ev are lying about you and Abi, and doing it on the internet. Couldn't Jim, Marianne or other legal bods pen a stiff letter making them retract? They are well out of order here, and should be exposed for it.

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Date: Mon, Jul 03, 2000 at 01:15:50 (GMT) From: Susan Email: None To: Nigel Subject: * These are lies and character defamations.* Message:

thankds Nigel. I am figuring out what to do next.

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Date: Sat, Jul 01, 2000 at 22:00:55 (GMT) From: Marianne Email: None To: Nigel Subject: * These are lies and character defamations.* Message:

Don't worry, Nigel. I am paying very close attention to all of this. Marianne

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Date: Sat, Jul 01, 2000 at 23:16:58 (GMT) From: Nigel Email: fitzroy@liverpool.ac.uk To: Marianne Subject: whitewash Message:

I'm wondering, given that EV's internal inquiry completely failed to identify Susan or Abi as Jagdeo's victims or locate further evidence, who or what DID they investigate before announcing their 'all clear' - or 'not proven' verdict..? Did they look exclusively to ex-premies for hints and clues? Did they speak to anyone who hasn't lost their memory? How did they go about tracking victims down? Did they interview Jagdeo? Did they publish? Do they care?

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Date: Sun, Jul 02, 2000 at 00:53:33 (GMT) From: Marianne Email: None To: Nigel Subject: whitewash Message:

Nigel: As I said, I'm paying close attention to all of this. I don't want to publish on the Forum what, if anything, I plan to do in my legal capacity as a result of the information posted on the Elan Vital site. Marianne

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Date: Sat, Jul 01, 2000 at 21:27:57 (GMT) From: Katie Email: None To: Nigel and Susan Subject: I agree with Nigel Message:

Hi Susan - As far as I know, EV has made NO effort to contact you or Abi. They appear only to have contacted Anthony. As Nigel said, perhaps Marianne or Jim can make them aware of that. IMHO, they oughta come to you. I can understand your frustration, and I feel that contacting them would be fruitless, because they can always 'lose' the letter, the e-mail, or someone can not 'remember' that they got a phone call. Take care, Susan - Love from Katie

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Date: Sat, Jul 01, 2000 at 20:44:59 (GMT) From: JtF Email: None To: Susan Subject: FAQ re. Jagdeo Message:

I would never presume to tell you what to do but my feeling on the matter is that these FAQ's are no more than EV's version of premie apologia. Soon these answers will be parroted back on this forum as if the idea is that of the poster. My initial feeling about all these FAQ's was anger over the lies but now I'm looking at it more as if EV is back on their heels re-acting to those who know Rawat& Stooges are despicable sub-human scum. I guess I'm still angry!

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Date: Sat, Jul 01, 2000 at 18:57:08 (GMT) From: Powerman Email: None To: Jim Subject: ***EXTRA EXTRA!! CHECK OUT NEW EV SITE!!*** Message:

I couldn't stomach reading the whole FAQ but I read the part about opposing views, web sites, etc. When liars are confronted they lie even more. Elan Vital's responses are so pathetic and so ugly, it's really ruined my day. To think they would openly deny maharaji ever said he was God... well, it's just unbelievable. And Abbie Hoffman was right: If Guru Maharaj Ji is the Lord of the Universe, he's the Lord America deserves.

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Date: Sat, Jul 01, 2000 at 19:16:08 (GMT) From: SB Email: None To: Powerman Subject: Yes, but Powerman... Message:

...all cannot stay like this forever...He deserves more 'light' and exposure!! His record deserves to be known by the whole world, not just a few!! He is the Lord and we are going to exposse HIM, right? THE SAVIOUR IS HERE...He needs OUR help in letting everybody know what he is up to!! IS TIME TO CONTACT THE MEDIA AS MUCH AS WE CAN: He and his organization are totally panicked ABOUT THAT CHANCE!! I was in a Long Beach 96' 400 people's meeting where the whole discussion was about HOW TO AVOID THE MEDIA...If he was a true teacher, master, or saviour of some sort, he would be using 'free advertizing', but no! He is afraid of exposure!! Let's give him a hand. Lets agree who is contacting whop...Just an idea...I hate his nerves!! How busy are you? Few minutes to spare? I encourage and support any EX who wants to counter-attack this POOR manuever trying to minimize the fact thatHE IS A FAKE!!! Sorry, I'm angry, I confess... SB

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Date: Sun, Jul 02, 2000 at 00:26:33 (GMT) From: Powerman Email: None To: SB Subject: I hope you're right, SB (nt) Message:

nt

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Date: Sat, Jul 01, 2000 at 18:35:09 (GMT) From: SB Email: None To: Jim Subject: IS HE DIRTY OR WHAT, PREMIES??? Message:

The more I know about this guru the more fastidious I get...AND I get an urge to PUKE!! SB

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Date: Sat, Jul 01, 2000 at 18:32:57 (GMT) From: Jim Email: None To: Jim Subject: ***THERE'S EVEN A FAQ ALL ABOUT US!!!***** Message:

Haven't read it yet but this is part of the, ahem, ahem, 'press kit': Frequently Asked Questions - Opposing Views Is Elan Vital aware of criticisms of its activities that have appeared on the Internet? Has Elan Vital taken action to protect its reputation? What were some of the criticisms of Elan Vital and Maharaji? Is Elan Vital a cult? Has Elan Vital covered up alleged past improper behavior? Does Maharaji have an affluent lifestyle? Did Maharaji ever say he was God? Has Maharaji changed what he is teaching?

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Date: Sat, Jul 01, 2000 at 18:53:07 (GMT) From: Jim Email: None To: Jim Subject: So he's finally acknowledged us Message:

As the great prophet Vacol once said, ' LET THE DEBATE BEGIN! ' We're going for coffee now but really, it's so cool that this has happened. Lies upon lies, carefully spun and lawyer-vetted. 'Maharaji was never a spiritual leader', 'he never claimed to be God', 'no pressure to live in the ashrams', 'he's got no reason to apologize for his wealth' .... etc. This is getting tres, tres cool.

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Date: Sat, Jul 01, 2000 at 19:13:07 (GMT) From: Marianne Email: None To: Jim Subject: So he's finally acknowledged us Message:

This is going to be very, very interesting. Marianne

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Date: Sun, Jul 02, 2000 at 14:29:26 (GMT) From: VP Email: None To: Marianne Subject: So he's finally acknowledged us Message:

Hi, Marianne! I got your message from Katie and I appreciated it very much, so thanks a lot :) I hope for our sakes this will get interesting, but it just seems to me like more of the same--watered down, lame, spin doctored answers to pacify the premies. Like the ones he delivered when he closed down the ashrams. Remember those? It's my guess that you've heard the last of him. I doubt Jim is really expecting a real dialogue. We all know better, right? It's sort of entertaining to review the history of Maharaji's response to this site: 1) Pretend nothing has happened. Ignore it and it will go away. 2) It doesn't go away. Tell everyone not to listen to it. 3) Get our own party line that is 'positive'--ELK Still not respond to other points of view. 4) Vague references to 'ememies' (what?) at programs 5) Decide to find a way to silence these 'ememies' Consult attorney who suggests copyright violations on their internet sites. 6) Finally, when it can't be ignored any longer, respond with watered down answers that make little to no sense, but sound good to people with limited powers of reasoning and limited ability to see the truth. 7) Retreat back into cult cave (my guess as to his next move) Yawn, snore, VP ;)

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Date: Sun, Jul 02, 2000 at 18:49:26 (GMT) From: Ben Lurking Email: benlurken@aol.com To: VP Subject: So he's finally acknowledged us Message:

This is a basic marketing strategy, he is trying to protect the erosion of his market. If he was as successful and growing as large as they claim, he could safley ignore the ex sites and language.

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Date: Sun, Jul 02, 2000 at 19:04:08 (GMT) From: VP Email: None To: Ben Lurking Subject: So he's finally acknowledged us Message:

It is a marketing strategy, and it's also a defense mechanism. What's so bad is, when he ignored the criticism, he looked bad. Now that he's responded, he looks bad. That's the way it is when you don't have truth on your side. How's it going?

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Date: Sat, Jul 01, 2000 at 19:17:17 (GMT) From: Good point Marianne Email: None To: Marianne Subject: So he's finally acknowledged us Message:

I din't see it like that until you pointed to it!! Thanks. SB

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Date: Sat, Jul 01, 2000 at 18:44:29 (GMT) From: SB Email: None To: Jim Subject: ***THERE'S EVEN A FAQ ALL ABOUT US!!!***** Message:

Did Maharaji ever said he was God? Does Elan Vital offer the video Lotus where Maharaji is shown on a stage and the word God flashes on the background? No Elan Vital, we are not going away:You better get as good as you can get. The best is yet to come. Sincerely, SB PS: My respects 'master' Jim.

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Date: Sat, Jul 01, 2000 at 18:37:52 (GMT) From: to Linda Gross:: Email: None To: Jim Subject: you are one of THE GREATEST SCUMS ON THIS EARTH!! Message:

SHAME ON YOU!!

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Date: Sat, Jul 01, 2000 at 18:51:55 (GMT) From: PCH Email: None To: to Linda Gross:: Subject: you are one of THE GREATEST SCUMS ON THIS EARTH!! Message:

let's not get hysterical....what is your problem? you are upset because they finally respond to YOUR criticism?

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Date: Sat, Jul 01, 2000 at 19:02:44 (GMT) From: SB Email: None To: PCH Subject: That is exactly what I WANTED TO HEAR Message:

Premies always show their true colors: Loving, sweet, understanding intelligent people... NOT!! How did you concluded that the poster is hysterical? I think people are enjoying the 'ride' here, right? I AM!! There is a sweet satisfaction on realizing what we have left! KEEP TALKING!! Thanks!! To the premies posting here, including Lard: ROFL!!! SB

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Date: Sat, Jul 01, 2000 at 19:44:09 (GMT) From: PCH Email: None To: SB Subject: That is exactly what I WANTED TO HEAR Message:

Screaming (ie writing in Capital letters) 'Linda Gross you are the greatest scum on earth' does sound a tinsy leetle bit hysterical...;) ROTFL too

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Date: Sat, Jul 01, 2000 at 19:20:38 (GMT) From: Jim Email: None To: SB Subject: I submitted my 'feedback' Message:

I wrote: I dare Maharaji or any of you to enter into a public debate on the issues you've raised here. What do you say? If it's all true, you can prove your points. If not, well, that's another story. Jim Heller

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Date: Sat, Jul 01, 2000 at 21:21:30 (GMT) From: Roger eDrek Email: drek@oz.net To: Jim Subject: But did you request a picture from Press Kit Message:

Jim, You need to request a picture of Maharaji in the Press Kit. I'm sure they will give it to you. The form has an entry for an URL and I'll let you use mine, www.oz.net/~drek.

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Date: Sun, Jul 02, 2000 at 03:36:07 (GMT) From: Jim Email: None To: Roger eDrek Subject: No, but I called them Message:

Roger, There's no way in the world I'd ever claim to have your web site. You're going to hell; we all know that. But I did call the number they offer: (818) 889-1193 and left a message for Terry something-or-other, the PR rep.

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Date: Sat, Jul 01, 2000 at 19:56:04 (GMT) From: GREAT IDEA JIM!!! Email: None To: Jim Subject: I submitted my 'feedback' Message:

I'm sending mine right now!!

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Date: Sat, Jul 01, 2000 at 19:57:17 (GMT) From: Sorry FA Email: None To: GREAT IDEA JIM!!! Subject: I forgot to sign: SB (nt) LOL Message:

nt

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Date: Sun, Jul 02, 2000 at 00:02:13 (GMT) From: Forum Admin Email: None To: Sorry FA Subject: I forgot to sign: SB (nt) LOL Message:

Don't want to sound heavy, SB, but it would probably be better to put 'SB' in the 'From' box, which was cunningly designed for the purpose of identifying the poster. Nothing personal, but just trying not to encourage bad habits. If exes don't use a visible name or alias, premies (who do it already) and other exes will feel justified in doing likewise, and the forum could get messier than it already is. Thanks, FA

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Date: Sat, Jul 01, 2000 at 14:13:02 (GMT) From: cq Email: None To: Everyone Subject: The gentle art of brainwashing Message:

In recent posts, the subject of 'brainwashing' and its relevance (or lack of relevance) to Mr Rawat's propagation techniques has been raised. It's an interesting subject, and one which conjures up (for some people) images of 'Ipcress File'- type torture scenarios, sleep and food deprivation, enforced solitude with a canvas bag over your head , 'white noise' blaring through headphones, and much, much more. In fact, here in the 21st century, brainwashing has become a much more sublte, though no less insidious affair. It exists under a variety of names, from 'mind-control' to 'thought-reform' to 'indoctrination' to simple 'persuasion-techniques'. And it's far more widespread than many would like to believe. Here's an interesting site I came across recently, which I'd like to quote from, called: THE BATTLE FOR YOUR MIND Persuasion & Brainwashing Techniques Being Used On The Public Today by and copyright Dick Sutphen The section titled 'Mass Misuse' has some interesting observations to make. (more at http://www.dcd.net/NBP/persuasn.html) Persuasion Techniques Persuasion isn't technically brainwashing but it is the manipulation of the human mind by another individual, without the manipulated party being aware what caused his opinion shift. I only have time to very basically introduce you to a few of the thousands of techniques in use today, but the basis of persuasion is always to access your RIGHT BRAIN. The left half of your brain is analytical and rational. The right side is creative and imaginative. That is overly simplified but it makes my point. So, the idea is to distract the left brain and keep it busy. Ideally, the persuader generates an eyes-open altered state of consciousness, causing you to shift from beta awareness into alpha; this can be measured on an EEG machine. First, let me give you an example of distracting the left brain. Politicians use these powerful techniques all the time; lawyers use many variations which, I've been told, they call 'tightening the noose.' Assume for a moment that you are watching a politician give a speech. First, he might generate what is called a 'YES SET.' These are statements that will cause listeners to agree; they might even unknowingly nod their heads in agreement. Next come the TRUISMS. These are usually facts that could be debated but, once the politician has his audience agreeing, the odds are in the politician's favor that the audience won't stop to think for themselves, thus continuing to agree. Last comes the SUGGESTION. This is what the politician wants you to do and, since you have been agreeing all along, you could be persuaded to accept the suggestion. Now, if you'll listen closely to my political speech, you'll find that the first three are the 'yes set,' the next three are truisms and the last is the suggestion. 'Ladies and gentlemen: are you angry about high food prices? Are you tired of astronomical gas prices? Are you sick of out-of-control inflation? Well, you know the Other Party allowed 18 percent inflation last year; you know crime has increased 50 percent nationwide in the last 12 months, and you know your paycheck hardly covers your expenses any more. Well, the answer to resolving these problems is to elect me, John Jones, to the U.S. Senate.' And I think you've heard all that before. But you might also watch for what are called Imbedded Commands. As an example: On key words, the speaker would make a gesture with his left hand, which research has shown is more apt to access your right brain. Today's media-oriented politicians and spellbinders are often carefully trained by a whole new breed of specialist who are using every trick in the book-both old and new-to manipulate you into accepting their candidate. The concepts and techniques of Neuro-Linguistics are so heavily protected that I found out the hard way that to even talk about them publicly or in print results in threatened legal action. Yet Neuro-Linguistic training is readily available to anyone willing to devote the time and pay the price. It is some of the most subtle and powerful manipulation I have yet been exposed to. A good friend who recently attended a two-week seminar on Neuro-Linguistics found that many of those she talked to during the breaks were government people. Mass Misuse I could relate many stories that support subliminal programming, but I'd rather use my time to make you aware of even more subtle uses of such programming. I have personally experienced sitting in a Los Angeles auditorium with over ten thousand people who were gathered to listen to a current charismatic figure. Twenty minutes after entering the auditorium, I became aware that I was going in and out of an altered state. Those accompanying me experienced the same thing. Since it is our business, we were aware of what was happening, but those around us were not. By careful observation, what appeared to be spontaneous demonstrations were, in fact, artful manipulations. The only way I could figure that the eyes-open trance had been induced was that a 6- to 7-cycle-per-second vibration was being piped into the room behind the air conditioner sound. That particular vibration generates alpha, which would render the audience highly susceptible. Ten to 25 percent of the population is capable of a somnambulistic level of altered states of consciousness; for these people, the suggestions of the speaker, if non-threatening, could potentially be accepted as 'commands.' The Medium for Mass Takeover The more we find out about how human beings work through today's highly advanced technological research, the more we learn to control human beings. And what probably scares me the most is that the medium for takeover is already in place! The television set in your livingroom and bedroom is doing a lot more than just entertaining you. Before I continue, let me point out something else about an altered state of consciousness. When you go into an altered state, you transfer into right brain, which results in the internal release of the body's own opiates: enkephalins and Beta-endorphins, chemically almost identical to opium. In other words, it feels good and you want to come back for more. Recent tests by researcher Herbert Krugman showed that, while viewers were watching TV, right-brain activity outnumbered left-brain activity by a ratio of two to one. Put more simply, the viewers were in an altered state in trance more often than not. They were getting their Beta-endorphin 'fix.' To measure attention spans, psychophysiologist Thomas Mulholland of the Veterans Hospital in Bedford, Massachusetts, attached young viewers to an EEG machine that was wired to shut the TV set off whenever the children's brains produced a majority of alpha waves. Although the children were told to concentrate, only a few could keep the set on for more than 30 seconds! Most viewers are already hypnotized. To deepen the trance is easy. One simple way is to place a blank, black frame every 32 frames in the film that is being projected. This creates a 45-beat-per-minute pulsation perceived only by the subconscious mind-the ideal pace to generate deep hypnosis. The commercials or suggestions presented following this alpha-inducing broadcast are much more likely to be accepted by the viewer. The high percentage of the viewing audience that has somnambulistic-depth ability could very well accept the suggestions as commands-as long as those commands did not ask the viewer to do something contrary to his morals, religion, or self-preservation. The medium for takeover is here. By the age of 16, children have spent 10,000 to 15,000 hours watching television-that is more time than they spend n school! In the average home, the TV set is on for six hours and 44 minutes per day-an increase of nine minutes from last year and three times the average rate of increase during the 1970s. It obviously isn't getting better we are rapidly moving into an alpha-level world-very possibly the Orwellian world of '1984'-placid, glassy-eyed, and responding obediently to instructions. A research project by Jacob Jacoby, a Purdue University psychologist, found that of 2,700 people tested, 90 percent misunderstood even such simple viewing fare as commercials and 'Barnaby Jones.' Only minutes after watching, the typical viewer missed 23 to 36 percent of the questions about what he or she had seen. Of course they did-they were going in and out of trance! If you go into a deep trance, you must be instructed to remember-otherwise you automatically forget. I have just touched the tip of the iceberg. When you start to combine subliminal messages behind the music, subliminal visuals projected on the screen, hypnotically produced visual effects, sustained musical beats at a trance-inducing pace you have extremely effective brainwashing. Every hour that you spend watching the TV set you become more conditioned. And, in case you thought there was a law against any of these things, guess again. There isn't! There are a lot of powerful people who obviously prefer things exactly the way they are.. You may distribute and use the unaltered text of this article for any non-profit project so long as you include 'By and copyright Dick Sutphen' as a reference.

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Date: Mon, Jul 03, 2000 at 01:07:51 (GMT) From: SB Email: None To: cq Subject: Great Post!! Thanks. (nt) Message:

nt

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Date: Sun, Jul 02, 2000 at 22:09:25 (GMT) From: Stonor Email: None To: cq Subject: A Must Read!!! . . . it doesn't stop at m's kind.. Message:

Great find Chris! Finally got around to reading this piece on brainwashing properly today, and he sure covers a lot of ground! And 'persuasion' techniques seem to be quite insidiously all-pervasive, and in many cases used subconsciously! Now I know why for more than a few years now I've felt that just about everybody has been to some degree brainwashed (and I'm sure I haven't been entirely untouched) and is that where the idea of 'going with the flow' comes from? Just let that stuff wash you right out of your own mind . . . but into whose? (you deserve this kind of question once in a while ;-) Is this why I've always found salespeople, hype, TV, politics, and large gatherings irritating, if not repelling? (And why I haven't watched TV for at least 5 years now? - Don't touch that dial!) I just read a review of a book called 'You're Too Kind: A Brief History of Flattery' by Richard Stengel. Peripherally related, I'll agree, but the criticism was that he glossed over the downside: 'But there is a difference between innocent diplomacy, personal and public, and cynical hypocrisy. Stengel himself responds to the question by stating that it seems 'less vexing today in an era ... when our outer selves seem to have overtaken our inner selves' Maybe that's what the problem is.' Or maybe the problem is that our inner selves have simply been 'overtaken'. Stonor )~(

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Date: Sat, Jul 01, 2000 at 13:12:47 (GMT) From: SB Email: None To: Everyone Subject: Michael Moore CONTACTED!! Message:

I will not include here the whole letter I sent Michael because I do not want to give Maharaji ANY benefit from it. It took me too long to do it but I just sent it. Any response received will be prompted posted here, of course. I included the 9 objection's letter and I'm gathering right now the most important links to send Michael Moore today! Here is Moore's email address: TVNatFans@aol.com, in case anybody wants to make a personal statement.

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Date: Sat, Jul 01, 2000 at 03:41:27 (GMT) From: Rob Email: None To: Everyone Subject: 'My Guru is not fat' Message:

This should be required reading for premies! Came across an essay by David Lane entitled 'The Guru has no turban' at url http://www.mtsac.edu/~dlane/turban1.html Here is an extract: It so happens that many middle-aged gurus have a bulging waistline. They have what my father had: a growing pouch! But, unlike my father, who knew his increasing girth was due to late night binges of ice cream and candy bars, certain disciples feel that the guru is fat for a spiritual reason. You see, it is just not kosher to say, 'Yea, my guru is getting fat; he likes to eat and doesn't get much exercise' (a pretty solid explanation). Rather, some argue that there must be a 'higher' reason or meaning. These range from: 'Oh, he awakened his kundalini and that is why his stomach is pot shaped; when the shaktipat arises, the stomach protrudes.' 'My guru is not fat! He is literally eating the disciples karmas in his own stomach.' 'The God-man is not fat. He is full of life in the solar plexus.' The rest is equally poignant. I wonder if Dr Lane could has any information on DLM & sri hans lineage? He lists his email as dlane5@hotmail.com

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Date: Sat, Jul 01, 2000 at 21:43:26 (GMT) From: Nigel Email: fitzroy@liverpool.ac.uk To: Rob Subject: 'My Guru is not fat' Message:

Hi Rob, I remember my community coordinator sharing on this very issue: Maharaji is pear-shaped because he has 'just let go' of worldly concepts about body image. Meanwhile muscles relax in divine contemplation and the gut flabs out with scant respect for our pathetic worldly inhibitions. Maharaji is so unlike the rest of us, so self-disregarding and free from all that... It was one of those amusing, but safely speculative satsangs where everyone chuckles without having to feel they must believe every word literally, provided the vibe feels right. Like every other satsang.

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Date: Sat, Jul 01, 2000 at 23:19:34 (GMT) From: Jerry Email: None To: Nigel Subject: Funny shit Message:

That's like the song that went 'she ain't skinny, she's tall, that's all'. Well, 'he ain't fat, he's divine, so sublime'.

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Date: Fri, Jun 30, 2000 at 20:10:51 (GMT) From: Anarchist Email: anarchyinthe.uk To: Everyone Subject: A place to be thoroughly irresponsible Message:

If you feel like talking online then go to The Anything Goes Live Chatroom and you can rant and rave or even be normal and it won't all be saved for posterity. Call yourself any name you like and say what you want. Nobody (including the webmeister) will know who you are but please don't use one of my many aliases which I use on this forum 5 otherwise the sweet FA over here might catch you at it and give you a severe telling off.

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Date: Fri, Jun 30, 2000 at 19:29:57 (GMT) From: Nigel Email: fitzroy@liverpool.ac.uk To: Everyone Subject: A poll for premies only Message:

1) Do you completely trust Maharaji's judgement on how he presents himself and his message to the world? 2) If 'yes' to (1), has his judgement always been reliable? 3) If 'yes' to (1) and 'no' to (2), when did his methods and message become reliable? 4) If 'yes' to (1) and 'yes' to (2), how do you rationalise the complete overhauling of the practise of K in the eighties? 5) Do you have any criticisms of Maharaji? 6) If 'yes' to (5), what are they? 7) If 'no' to (5), do you consider all criticisms of Maharaji himself, voiced on ex-premie.org, to be unfounded and therefore unfair? 8) If 'yes' to (5) and you have made any criticsm(s) in response to (6), do you have the courage to repeat these criticisms using your own name? 9) If you saw my recent 'real M' versus 'fake M' challenge, how well to think you would score if you took the test yourself? 10) Are you a devotee? 11) Would you kiss his feet if the opportunity arose right now? (I would appreciate straight 'yes' or 'no' answers where appropriate, even if you wish to clarify these afterwards. Thanks.)

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Date: Sat, Jul 01, 2000 at 05:53:12 (GMT) From: Monica Lewis Email: None To: Nigel Subject: A poll for premies only Message:

1) Do you completely trust Maharaji's judgement on how he presents himself and his message to the world? Oh yes, yes, yessssssss! 2) If 'yes' to (1), has his judgement always been reliable? Well not all the time. Sometimes, when we're fooling around, he can't always contain his excitment and you know has a bit of a premature accident .... 3) If 'yes' to (1) and 'no' to (2), when did his methods and message become reliable? When we started learning about Tantric Sex. 4) If 'yes' to (1) and 'yes' to (2), how do you rationalise the complete overhauling of the practise of K in the eighties? You mean K for kissing don't you? Well, we couldn't kiss as freely and openly in the 80's as the 70's - the free love era was definitely over. Marolyn threatened to leave, and he threatened to cut off the money flow, and so, of course he had to overhaul how we kissed. We had to do it in private from then on. 5) Do you have any criticisms of Maharaji? Only one. 6) If 'yes' to (5), what are they? That we can't do it in the big master bedroom with the elevator windows, and we always have to sneak off to the massage room at Malibu when Marolyn's not in. 7) If 'no' to (5), do you consider all criticisms of Maharaji himself, voiced on ex-premie.org, to be unfounded and therefore unfair? Yes, except for anything negative said about Marolyn or his other women. Then I think you're all spot on. 8) If 'yes' to (5) and you have made any criticsm(s) in response to (6), do you have the courage to repeat these criticisms using your own name? Yes, I've tried, but what can I do? I know we have to be careful, because he's got his family image to be mindful of (check out his biography on Elan Vital website - not a mention of me! Huh!). And, I do use my name, but not Monica, I use his pet name for me, which is Titilaya, which is Hindi and means 'Bit on the Side'. 9) If you saw my recent 'real M' versus 'fake M' challenge, how well to think you would score if you took the test yourself? Very well indeed. Many times I have to fake it with M, but he thinks it's real, so I'm sure I'd score highly ... 10) Are you a devotee? Yes. And I'm his devoted mistress to boot! 11) Would you kiss his feet if the opportunity arose right now? You betcha. In fact, sometimes I suck his toes - just like Fergy. (I would appreciate straight 'yes' or 'no' answers where appropriate, even if you wish to clarify these afterwards. Thanks.) Um, yes and no. Is that OK?

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Date: Fri, Jun 30, 2000 at 23:44:06 (GMT) From: Jim Email: None To: Nigel Subject: Good questions, Nige (nt) Message:

fff

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Date: Sat, Jul 01, 2000 at 06:50:50 (GMT) From: Baba Email: None To: u Subject: a poll for nigel Message:

which I wood like 2 personally put up your... where the sun don't shine. hey nigel...what donkey did your ass come from? u guys are such assholes... y not talk 'bout tom jeffersons slaves? phucking idiots..thanks for the thoughts

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Date: Sat, Jul 01, 2000 at 20:27:39 (GMT) From: Nigel Email: fitzroy@liverpool.ac.uk To: Baba Subject: a troll replies. Message:

Thanks Baba. You answered every question by default.

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Date: Sat, Jul 01, 2000 at 18:45:49 (GMT) From: SB Email: None To: Baba Subject: ...and YOU can't even talk...GET HELP!! (NT) Message:

NT

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Date: Sun, Jul 02, 2000 at 06:22:48 (GMT) From: Baba Email: None To: SB Subject: ...and YOU can't even talk...GET HELP!! (NT) Message:

I forgot to tell you to go phuck yourself

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Date: Sun, Jul 02, 2000 at 11:40:26 (GMT) From: SB Email: None To: Baba Subject: Insults is the best you can do? Message:

1-Why? 2-What is your problem? 3-What are your objections to our presence here? Are you afraid 4-to talk normally? 5-Did you received knowledge in the 70s? 6-Are you angry because you think mahariachi is GOD? 7-Are you against about exes right to be here? Seven is a good number. Take a deep breath and go for it! You are free!!

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Date: Fri, Jun 30, 2000 at 19:22:04 (GMT) From: Happy Email: None To: Everyone Subject: The guru lineage before M Message:

In a post about a week ago, Slackandsteel asked if anybody had information about M's father's life before he became a guru. In another post, Rob asked for information about the gurus that M himself has mentioned (on his site) as satgurus or givers of 'Knowledge'. I did not have time to answer then, and I do not have much information, but let me give a few comments based on what I know and have dug up from historical sources. Jean-Michel already correctly commented that the reference to Totapuri probably is a bluff, an attempt to link M to the in India highly esteemed lineage Totapuri-Ramakrishna-Vivekananda. JM also pointed out that Shiv Dayal Singh was the establisher of the Radhasoami sect in India. Another of the gurus mentioned, Swarupanand (their names are often spelled in different ways, with more or less titles added) was none less than Hans Ji's own guru. According to DLM's official version, Hans Ji was born in Badrinath, in Norther India, halfways between Hardwar-Rishikesh and Gaumukh, the place were Ganges runs out of the Himalayan glacier. It is very 'holy place' to Hindus, and whether he was born there may or may not be true, perhaps it is only part of a myth. The same source also claims that 'Born in the a Suryawansh, or sun dynasty, he inherited the greatness and the glamour of the Raghu dynasty. He was a descendant from the lineage of Lord Rama's family.' Well... believe it if you wish. A known fact is that his family name (and, accordingly, also Prem Pal's) was Sing(h). It suggests a Sikh descendency, but this is not entirely sure. All Sikhs are named Singh, but there also Singhs who are not Sikhs. It is a possible, but not a necessary link. Somewhere down the line, the family must have had a Sikh forefather, though. What is certain, however, is that he chose the Radhasoami guru, Anand Swarup, sometimes called Swarupanand, or Sarupanand, as his guru. Now, who are the Radhasoamis? They are a large sect, nowadays mainly based in both Agra and in the state of Punjab, the state which the Sikhs tried to make into an independent Sikh nation during the 70s and 80s, but failed in their attempts. They exist also in Uttar Pradesh, and in Bihar. And, nowadays, there are many followers in the U.S. As J-M mentioned, it was founded by Shiv Dayal Singh, in 1850, in the city of Agra (where Taj Mahal is), not in Punjab. However, Shiv Dayal Singh was of Sikh origin, and his family had moved to Agra from Punjab. The Radhasoamis did not appear out of nowhere, however. They had forerunners in the so called Sant (='saint') movement. The most well-known Sants were Kabir and Guru Nanak. Kabir lived in the fifteenth century, was born a low-cast Hindu, but was adopted into a Muslim family. He had a Hindu guru, Brahmanand,who was well-versed in yoga techniques taught within the Nath sect. Kabir himself did not support the practice of hatha-yoga, in fact, he poked fun at the Nath sect hatha yogis. Besides Brahmanand, he was also affected by the sufis living in Agra. Due to his dual experience of Hinduism and Islam, he tried to combine the best of the too, condemning the Hindu idolatry, but accepting their spiritual techniques. That is, in the Sant movement, there were no gods. However (with negative consequences, as we can see) guru-bhakti was encouraged. The Sant movement was in most respects a movement of mysticism, a mixture of elements from sufism and yoga. Hans Ji's admiration for Kabir is well-known, and one of the names he gave Prem Pal was, in fact, 'Sant'. It is not known for sure whether Guru Nanak, the founder of the Sikh religion, was a direct disciple of Kabir or not, but I would guess that he was. At least, he simply must have known of and probably also visited Kabir, who was the greatest name of the period. There are also striking resemblances in their teachings and poetry. Nanak was 20 years younger than Kabir. Nanak is, besides Kabir, considered the most important Sant, but to the Sikhs, he is of course the founder of their religion. Kabir's most well-known follower was Dharam Das, and there is still a subsect called the Dharamdasis. Their ideology is strikingly similar to that of DLM/EV and the Radhasoamis, including satsang, service (seva) and meditation. They meditate on the inner sound, 'SOHUNG'. Shiv Dayal Sing, the founder of the Radhasoamis, was a student of Tulsi Das, and also of Tulsi Das' successor, Girdhari Das. It was only after the latter's death that he established himself as a guru, in 1850. According to Radhasoami sources, Tulsi Das, in turn, was a disciple of Guru Govind Singh, the last of the ten Sikh gurus. Accordingly, there is an absolutely unquestionable link to the Sikhs, although the Radhasoamis differ in many respects from the Sikhs, and also have been persecuted by them. On the positive side, Shiv Dayal Singh himself did not claim to be perfect, although his followers claimed he was. Shiv Dayal Sing mentions several predessors in his writings, among them Kabir, Nanak, Tulsi Das, Hari Das, Sur Das (the blind gardener, you remember?), Rai Das, but also Mohammedans such as the sufi Shams-i-Tabriz, teacher of Jawal-eddin-Rumi. These appear to be sources of inspiration rather than direct predecessors. BUT, there is unquestionably a direct line of succession between Shiv Dayal Sing and Swarupanand, Hans Ji's guru. After Shiv Dayal Sing's death in 1878, their was - as there always appears to be - a fight about the succession. None less than six individuals established themselves as gurus: four in Agra, one in Beas, Punjab, and one in Delhi. They all agreed on the fact that Shiv Dayal Singh appointed someone as his successor, but they could not agree on whom. Today, there are 12 existing branches of the Radhasoami sect (some have merged, others have died out, etc.), and they are 13 if we add DLM/EV to the list, which we perhaps should. 14, with Sat Pal, M's brother. Two major branches of the Radhasoamis are usually considered to exist, though: The Agra branch, and the Beas branch (in Punjab). The Beas branch was established by Jaimal Singh (guru period: 1878-1903), and some of the most important names of this line have been Sawan Singh (1903-1948), Kirpal Singh (1948-1974), and, from another offshot, Jagat Singh (1948-1951), Charan Singh (1951-1990) and Gurinder Singh (1990 - present), who is now 'reigning' in Beas. The teachings within the Beas branch is somewhat different than within the Agra branch. For instance, in Beas, the teaching about the 'five names of God' exists, but it does not within the Agra branch. In Agra, there were also several off-springs, but the most important successor from our point of view was Rai Saligram (1878-1898), who also established the name, Radhasoami. From him stems the line to Anand Swarup, Hans ji, and Prem Pal. Here is the correct historical guru line from Shiv Dayal Singh to Prem Pal ('guru dates' in brackets): SHIV DAYAL SINGH (1850-1878) RAI SALIGRAM (1878-1898) ('Huzur Maharaj') BRAHM SANKAR MISRA (1898-1907) ('Maharaj Saheb') KAMTA P. SINHA (1907-1913) ('Sarkar Maharaj') SWARUPANAND (1913-1937) ('Sahebji Maharaj') HANS JI MAHARAJ (1937-1966) PREM PAL SING RAWAT (1966-present) ('Sant Ji Maharaj') And, if we go back in time before Shiv Dayal Singh, the lineage is likely to have been (but this is more debatable and difficult to establish with certainty): GURU GOVINDH SINGH - TULSI DAS - GIRDHARI DAS - SHIV DAYAL SINGH. Some words about Swarupanand, Hans Ji's guru. He was born by a Sikh father and Hindu mother. His father was a modern Sikh, who had abandoned the turban. As a youth, he was attracted to the politico-religious movement Arya Samaj, before joining the Radhasoamis. After becoming a guru, he established a 'divine village', Dayalbagh. It is still existing. Male Radhasoamis usually wear a turban, like the Sikhs. However, I would expect, although I do not know for sure, that turbans were not required in Dayalbagh, since Anandswarup was brought up modernly. Accoriding to DLM sources, Hans Ji received the four 'kriyas' (techniques) by a mahatma, suggesting that Swarupanand did indeed teach the 4-K package. This may be a post hoc construction, however. The only way to find out for sure would be to travel to Dayalbagh for some historical research. On his death, Swarupanand appointed (according to Dayalbagh sources) Gurucharandas Mehta (Mehtaji Saheb) as his successor. He 'reigned' during the period 1937-1975, and has since then been followed by Dr. M. B. Lal as guru (1975-present). DLM sources claim that Swarupanand in fact appointed Hans Ji. Apparently disappointed with the outcome of matters, Hans Ji left and started his own guru career. He went first to Delhi and spread K there, then to Punjab, the state with so many Sikhs and Radhasoamis, and to Sind, in present-day Pakistan. He travelled in most states of Northern India. The Divine Light Mission was established and registered under the Registration Act of India in 1960, in the state of Bihar. Its Hindi name was DIVYA SANDESH PARISHAD. Accordingly, there can be absolutely no question about the fact that DLM is an offspring of the Radhasoami sect. This is a fact that already Hans Ji tried to silence, and it is never mentioned in DLM/EV. The rewriting of history is nothing new, it did not start with Prem Pal and his brother Sat Pal. It started already with Hans Ji.

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Date: Fri, Jun 30, 2000 at 23:51:01 (GMT) From: Anon Email: None To: Happy Subject: You've got it wrong I'm afraid. Message:

What is certain, however, is that he chose the Radhasoami guru, Anand Swarup, sometimes called Swarupanand, or Sarupanand, as his guru. Nope. I made the same mistake at first, assuming that this well documented Anand Swarup was Shri Hans' guru. He was not. The Sarupanand who Hans Ji apparently did receive Knowledge from was from a different sect known as 'Advait Mat'. Some time ago Scott Talkington and I got the considerably rare documented history of this group from a library and sent it to Jean Michel where it is, in part, clearly laid our for anyone to read who is interested (thanks to some text recognition software). The only connection that Shri Hans had with Radhasoami is that he apparently (according to Prof. David Lane) received initiation at some time from Sawan Singh as well. If you read the Advait Mat text on JM's site you will see that Sarupanand appointed someone called Vairagananad to be the next guru.(not Hans Ji). The Divine Light Mission equivalent 'history book' paints a predicatably different version of events whereby Vairaganand is dismissed as an 'scoundrel imposter' and Hans Ji is the true subsequent Satguru. I would guess that you (like myself) have been reading 'Radhasoami Reality' by Jurgensmeyer. A very good and informative book which tempts one to believe that Swarup Anand may have been Maharaji's 'grandad guru'. There are so many similarities between early DLM and the Radhasoamis. For instance, the early DLM motto (emblazened over a door at the Palace of Peace, East Dulwich, London, cica 1974) was 'Work is Worship'. This was also the Radhasoami motto at Dayalbagh according to Jurgensmeyer. Again JM has a section on his site which deals directly with such similarities. Also he has some stuff there taken from direct correspondance with David Lane (who was Jurgensmeyer's assistant in India) further relating to Shri Hans' past. I suggest that you read JM's site thoroughly since a lot of what you seek to know is touched on there.Information is still scant and it would be interesting to hear from people who have something new and accurate to add about Shri Hans' history.

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Date: Sat, Jul 01, 2000 at 01:28:02 (GMT) From: Rob Email: None To: Anon Subject: Here's another possibility and why. Message:

Hi Anon, Well it's got me interested all right! I've been reading extracts from Dr Lane's work at: http://www.mtsac.edu/~dlane/rs3.html There it mentions that when guruship was transferred from Sawan Singh to Jagat Singh (and BTW this was all done by way of wills, legal documents etc, not by playing supernatural 'tag'), another disciple, Kirpal Singh, felt he should have been next in line and broke away from the main sect to establish his own following. I think Kirpal Singh would be a good contender for Shri Hans's guru because of these two extracts from the above linked website: The first is a story of a disciple being rescued from the water by his satguru, and bears an uncanny resemblance to that put out as having happened to Shri Hans, when in fact it is attributed to Kirpal Singh: In Sar Bachan (Prose), Shiv Dayal Singh describes how a sincere devotee should test whatever appears within: 'All people on board were drowned with the exception of the disciple, who continued to float on a plank. He too was about to sink in a short while when a hand came out of the sea and a voice was heard saying: `Give me thy hand so that I may save thee.' `Who are you?' asked the disciple and the voice replied: `I am the Prophet.' The disciple said, `I do not know the Prophet. I do not know anybody else except my Sat Guru .' And the hand disappeared. A little later, when the disciple was drifting on the plank and dousing too, another hand appeared and (a voice) said: `Grasp the hand so that I may save you.' The disciple asked, `Who are you?' and the voice replied: `I am Kuda or Ishwar (God).' The disciple said: `My Khuda (God) is my Guru . I know no other Kudha .' That hand too disappeared, but shortly a third hand came out. This was the hand of his spiritual grandfather. `I am thy Guru's Guru ' said he, `Give me thy hand that I may take thee out.' The disciple thereupon replied: `Whether I am saved or drowned, I cannot give my hand to anybody else except to my Guru . . .' That hand also disappeared. Then the Guru Sahib Himself appeared, embraced the disciple and immediately took him home.' See Sar Bachan (Beas: Radha Soami Satsang, 1978), pages 157-158. *] does in letter 152, he is writing about Kirpal Singh's claim to be a genuine master, not his claim for rightful succession. Is it possible that Shri Hans took his Master's story for his own? The second extract describes how Kirpal Singh's focus for his devotees differed from traditional Rhadasoami, and is more akin to that spouted by the DLM branch: Since Kirpal Singh made inner experience the chief litmus test in appraising a guru's competence, all of Kirpal Singh's successors attempted to demonstrate that they had the power to grant spiritual experiences during meditation and initiation to sincere devotees. This emphasis, however, led to some severe epistemological questions among seekers, since disciples of each successor (e.g., Darshan Singh, Thakar Singh, Ajaib Singh, and even 'tape-recorded' initiates of Kirpal Singh) claimed to have transmundane experiences in the higher spiritual planes. Thus much of the debate surrounding successorship centered on who was 'competent' to transmit divine encounters of light and sound, and less on who possessed the proper 'outer' credentials. This development, which is consistent with Kirpal Singh's assumption of the mastership, generated an extremely esoteric debate over the authenticity of inner experiences. Instead of a unified body of reports all agreeing about the spiritual mastership of one genuine successor to Kirpal Singh, there were a plethora of differing stories, each of which appeared to back the charismatic prowess of the guru in question I'll admit that this is conjecture on my part at this stage, I need to try to buy the book and give it a thorough going over, but it would explain a lot of the departure Shri Hans took from Rhadasoami traditions if he were Kirpal Singh's devotee.

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Date: Sat, Jul 01, 2000 at 14:40:33 (GMT) From: Katie Email: None To: Rob Subject: That book is in the Library of Congress Message:

(I think - that's where Scott got ahold of it.)

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Date: Sun, Jul 02, 2000 at 03:29:26 (GMT) From: Rob Email: None To: Katie Subject: Thanks Message:

I have a few used book dealers looking for it, plus I plan to write to Dr Lane, (maybe he'll send me an autographed copy!!!)I have a feeling he may be interested in what's happening now - the (unsuccessful) westernization of Sant Mat! I'll keep everyone posted if he writes back. Dr Lane can be contacted at dlane5@hotmail.com (haven't verified that email address yet)

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Date: Sat, Jul 01, 2000 at 03:39:09 (GMT) From: Jim Email: None To: Rob Subject: Kirpal Singh's no stranger to old Vancouver prems Message:

When I got k in Vancouver in '73 Kirpal Singh had a sizeable presence in the new age / hippie / spiritual community there. His group owned the largest health food store then, Lifestream, and his posters and pamphlets were everywhere. I almost bit his hook except but had already started going to satsang and preferred a young guru to an old bearded one. But the idea that he might have been Hans' guru seems so unlikely to me. I'd have figured they were more contemporaries than anything else. Maybe Hans would have been a bit younger. I dunno.

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Date: Sat, Jul 01, 2000 at 03:51:22 (GMT) From: Rob Email: None To: Jim Subject: Kirpal Singh's no stranger to old Vancouver prems Message:

You are probably right Jim, but I would put money on them having hung out together and compared notes. There are just too many similarities. Apart from the ones I gave above, Dr Lane also has this to offer regarding Kirpal's would-be successor, Thakar Singh: 'Perhaps the one greatest obstacle confronting Thakar Singh's claim as the true successor to Kirpal Singh was Thakar himself. Unlike other gurus in his tradition, Thakar Singh's moral life has been thoroughly scrutinized and found wanting. Indeed, it has been well documented by a variety of sources--both within and outside the movement--that Thakar Singh has embezzled money, engaged in illicit sexual relations with a number of western female disciples, and conducted violent exorcisms on several devotees.' 'The Radhasoami Tradition : A Critical History of Guru Successorship' by David Christopher Lane Oh doesn't THAT ring a few bells!!!

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Date: Sat, Jul 01, 2000 at 01:46:45 (GMT) From: Jean-Michel Email: None To: Rob Subject: What would be interesting Message:

would be to have a transcript of the first 30 or so pages of that sant mat book, where they give details on the lineage of their first masters. I'm afraid one of you guys will have to go back to that library ....... Beside this, plagiarizing other gurus' books and scriptures is very common in those radhasoami/sant mat groups. Some gurus even complained ..... too funny.

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Date: Sat, Jul 01, 2000 at 12:17:12 (GMT) From: Anon Email: None To: Jean-Michel Subject: What would be interesting Message:

Even if Scott is prepared to go back to the library and photocopy the first pages of that book I am not entirely sure what we can learn that is of any interest. We already know that Shri Hans claimed to be Sarupanand's successor. We already know that Sarupanand had a guru (it says in the transcripts we already have) who was called 'Shri Paramhansa Dayal Ji Shri Swami Advait Anand Ji Maharaj' He was their so-called 'First Master' I gather. 'Shri Paramhansa Dayal Ji Shri Swami Advait Anand Ji Maharaj, according to the need of the country and its conditions, reincarnated Himself in response to the piteous prayers of the troubled humanity. He made them taste the nectar of NAM' (sacred Mantra) and relieved the whole world from the clutches of miseries. His arrival made the land blessed. The Advait Mat' organisation, started by Him, is still spreading the message of His eternal 'NAM' to the people in every nook and corner of the country. The teaching of Shri Paramhansa Dayal Ji, in the common parlance, is the same, as has been that of the ancient spiritual teachers.' (excerpt from page 30, The 'Paramhansa Advait Mat' Book) Then at http://www.maharaji.com/masters/masters.htm Maharaji says that Sarupanands guru was 'Param Hans Dayal Sri Adwetanand Ji 1840-1919' -This sounds like the same guy as above, although the spelling is different of course. Anyway it get's so vague going back this far that I personally lose interest. No, what interests me is that Shri Hans was supposed to have been Sarupanands disciple. I don't see him mentioned anywhere in that book unless he had a different name then. Their names certainly sound very grand don't they?! I noticed when looking at Maharaji's 'Guru Family Tree' - that as time goes on, the gurus have increasingly lengthy and grandiose titles, almost as if each successive generation seeks to out-shine the previous! We start with the modest 'Sri Totapuri Maharaj' and end with the fabulously crowned 'HRH Yogiraj Param Hans Sadgurudev Sri Hans ji Maharaj'. What's all this 'HRH' stand for?? In the UK, those initials have one immediate meaning - 'His Royal Highness' I know that Maharaji worships his father, but I would have thought that such a title would have sounded rather inappropriate. Does it mean something different? BTW I think it may be also interesting if anyone has the time to: a) Write to the current Advait Mat group in Guna for their comment. David Lane suggested this when I emailed him asking what he knew of Shri Hans/DLM's origins:- 'Advait Mat is different than Radhasoami in terms of lineage (except that the founder may have been at one-time connected to the early leaders of Radhasoami). Hansji was clearly a follower of Sarupanand of Advait Mat. Hansji is also reported to have received initiation from Sawan Singh of Radhasoami Beas, as reported byKirpal's personal secretary at Sawan Ashram, Gyanji (who I personally interviewed in July of 1978 on this issue). Hansji's doctrines are clearly reflective of Advait Mat (especially the pressing of the eyeballs, and the shortish hair--versus Beas's Sikh lineage gurus). I visted one of the Advait Mat centers in Delhi. A letter to their headquarters in Guna may reveal more.' This may be difficult of course. What would help would be if there was a contact in India or if they had an email address. There is an address on the Paramhans Advait Mat book which is the publisher I presume from 1975. SHRI ANANDPUR TRUST P. O. SHRI ANANDPUR Dist: Guna (M. P.) b)Ask some old premies (some Indian ones may remember)??

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Date: Sat, Jul 01, 2000 at 02:10:13 (GMT) From: Rob Email: None To: Jean-Michel Subject: It is worth pursuing Message:

Because I think the more that is uncovered about the origins of 'Knowledge' and the plethora of gurus which were and still are maintaining the traditions which Rawat first brought over to the West, the easier it will be for people to see what was really going on. The most we ever got out of him was 'this Knowledge was given to me by my father, my guru maharaj ji, and his guru maharaj ji before him...' Well that really doesn't tell the whole story by a long shout. He tried to give the impression that this was some secret method of discovering God which had been handed down to the chosen ones throughout the ages. I guess he didn't reckon on the explosion of information brought about by the internet! Now he is desparately trying to distance himself from the six hundred other Rhadasoami groups promulgating the same schtick in more flavors than Baskin Robbins. I've been trying to figure out why premies can't see it and really I had to look at myself and explore what made a difference to me. In a word, INFORMATION. Until I read the Sant Mat papers and started to research the internet for myself, I had never heard of 'Rhadasoami' or would even have thought to question the apparant lineage quoted on M's site. Even earlier than that, until I came across ex-premie.org, I had never heard a single criticism of m. or had my long-held concepts questioned. Information. Information which sooner or later will seep through to all his followers and provide them with the freedom to choose for themselves whilst in possession of all the facts.

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Date: Sat, Jul 01, 2000 at 08:18:54 (GMT) From: Jean-Michel Email: None To: Rob Subject: It is worth pursuing, of course ! It's all faked Message:

I've done it a bit, and finally gave up. There is so much data, but the whole picture is quite clear. Hans was a scoundrel disciple of his own guru, maybe simply by accident because he had some charisma and ventured in a new area where his guru had no following. Then Prempal claimed a fake heritage, and tried to cover his real one. Shiv Dayal Singh is definitely the origin of the Radhasoami movement - and there is a lot to say about it on the sociological and political point of view. Hans was definitely interested in this movement and has had at least 2 different gurus in 2 different branches (sant mat with sarupanand, and sawan sing in Radhasoami). This is no 'ancient' tradition, even though Shiv Dayal Singh has been inspired by different sources rooted in the middle-age traditions of bhakti (polytheists). Myriads of Indian groups (including the Sikh religion) claim Nanak and Kabir in their origins. The Radhasoami/Sant mat groups are definitely an offspring of the Sikh groups, for sociological/political reasons. And then there is a myriad of facts to illustrate those main points. I think D. Lane did a great job gathering all this information. As far as our group is concerned, what's lacking the most IMO is information on those sant mat groups, and I think the first pages of that sant mat book would be worth having online. Scott ??? Ready for another visit at the library? What would be also interesting if you want to do that, would be to write an introduction to that whole issue. I've tried to do that on my index page, but maybe someone could do a better job. But this is not the only issue with his past. The beginning of propagation in West is also interesting, the family business/fights, and his various attempts to cover his past (and DLM's) and to present himself as a 'teacher'. All aspect are interesting and worth digging IMO. When I was a premie, I've always thought he was very proud of his past, deeds and heritage. And when you begin scratching the surface, you're surprised to discover it's all fake.

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Date: Sat, Jul 01, 2000 at 03:44:26 (GMT) From: Jim Email: None To: Rob Subject: Well, Dog, what do you think? Message:

Dog, What do you think about this stuff? Are you willing to look at it openly? What do you see?

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Date: Sat, Jul 01, 2000 at 03:55:18 (GMT) From: Rob Email: None To: Jim Subject: There's a strange absence of premies just now! (nt Message:

nt

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Date: Sat, Jul 01, 2000 at 04:14:05 (GMT) From: Jim Email: None To: Rob Subject: Here's how the premies will probably react Message:

First, they won't say anything. They'll avoid the subject and may even stop posting for a day or two. Or they'll keep posting but will stay out of this thread. But, if someone makes a super big deal about it they will eventually say something although it might not be more than an inconsequential CD-like no-text empty thingamajigger. Of course that won't satisfy exes who'll chide them for their cowardice giving the premies just what they need: an excuse to launch yet another pathetic, irrelevant counter-offensive -- 'Why should I answer your questions? Who do you think you are?' kind of thing. Anyway, this will continue until finally one of them bites the bullet and posts a flagrant lie, something to the effect of 'It doesn't matter; I know what I experience' or something similar (the lie, of course, being that it doesn't matter to them. They know it matters. They're not stupid, just dishonest in the extreme. But that's cults for you.) They will let this information simmer and simmer and simmer in their heads until they think it's softened enough with all their other cult mush that they can regurgitate it in some other form. They will never deal with it squarely. Never, that is, until they're ready to quit their whole unseemly game.

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Date: Sat, Jul 01, 2000 at 10:31:10 (GMT) From: Mel Bourne Email: None To: Jim Subject: Here's how the premies will probably react Message:

Hi Jim Wrong! I've dumped and read Lane's material extensively over the last couple of years. Does it undermine my experience of 'Knowledge' as shown by our Maharaji? No Is it possible that disciples may enjoy a similar experience from their Maharaji? Yes My personal view is that it puts Maharaji into a far wider context and tradition (even giving him a certain legitimacy!) and it is certainly NOT threatening in even the vaguest way to me as a 'premie'. It seems many roses have appeared on the Rhadasoami bush, I guess I'm lucky to I enjoy the scent of just one them. Mel

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Date: Sun, Jul 02, 2000 at 03:40:18 (GMT) From: Rob Email: None To: Mel Bourne Subject: Here's how the premies will probably react Message:

Mel, I wouldn't dream of trying to undermine your experience of meditation. In fact, if it is real, how could I possibly? Also, it may well be that maharaji is but another 'rose on the rhadasoami bush'. The problem for me is that this is not how it was and is presented, although I have a feeling that is going to change shortly (more on that later). The Knowledge was presented to us as being an exclusive gift from the Living Lord of the Universe, often imitated, never equalled, as the admen say. Had it been presented in it's true light, ie that of a rather obscure offshoot of an aleady established Indian religious sect, with it's own particular favorites out of the grab-bag of yogic exercises bundled in with assorted Sant Mat, Hindu and Siekh philosophies, would you have still gone for it and be in it now? I know I wouldn't, but perhaps you are different. Take care, Rob

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Date: Sat, Jul 01, 2000 at 18:07:15 (GMT) From: Jim Email: None To: Mel Bourne Subject: Let's be just a LITTLE logical, Mel Message:

Is it possible that disciples may enjoy a similar experience from their Maharaji? Yes Ipso facto, Maharaji's a liar. He said he was the only one. As did his father. As do they all. They're all liars, Mel. It's inescapable.

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Date: Sat, Jul 01, 2000 at 18:45:18 (GMT) From: Jerry Email: None To: Jim Subject: How conveniently they forget Message:

Wasn't there a time when Maharaji was saying that there can only be one living perfect master at a time? What's wrong with these premies? Forgetful, aren't they? I wonder how many candidates Mel suckered into the fold with just those words, about Maharaji being the only one and all. C'mon, Mel, tell me you never believed that Maharaji was the only one and told others the same. I'm certain you did. You'd be unique if you didn't. How come you're singing a different tune, now?

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Date: Sat, Jul 01, 2000 at 12:33:21 (GMT) From: Anon Email: None To: Mel Bourne Subject: Here's how the premies will probably react Message:

This just goes to show how people draw their own conclusions as they wish. It seems to me that those that find this historical information bolsters their faith in thir experience and their Master, must surely have turned a blind eye to the glaring paradoxes that people like Lane rightfully draw attention to. Anyway. So be it.

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Date: Sat, Jul 01, 2000 at 09:49:16 (GMT) From: Mili Email: mili@cheerful.com To: Jim Subject: Here's how the premies will probably react Message:

Jim, you're so full of shit as usual. What's so significant about this whole little mystery hush-shush you're playing out here, anyway? You're trying to pose as some kind of 'guru-experts' now. But, as usual, you are so biased to portray Maharaji as a 'bad guy' that it's obvious that your credibility in any kind of objective way is nil. It's so silly and superficial it's not worth a comment really. And yes, the experience of Knowledge is what matters, and seeing for oneself how that relates to what Maharaji is saying about it. You wouldn't know anything about that now, would you.

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Date: Sun, Jul 02, 2000 at 03:50:45 (GMT) From: Rob Email: None To: Mili Subject: You should join EV's PR team Mili. Please!!! nt Message:

nt

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Date: Sun, Jul 02, 2000 at 00:26:43 (GMT) From: Nigel Email: None To: Mili Subject: Here's how the premies will probably react Message:

And yes, the experience of Knowledge is what matters, and seeing for oneself how that relates to what Maharaji is saying about it. You wouldn't know anything about that now, would you. How many years in an ashram does one need, or how many in a community practising diligently, or how many out on the fringes in semi-detached new-age bullshit land does it take for a person to discover how one's experience 'relates to what Maharaji is saying about it'? Can you explain the relationship? Would you like to try my 'fake M' experiment? I bet you couldn't tell the difference - not only between fake and real, but also between 70's M and 90's M... It is just a wash of silly noises.

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Date: Sat, Jul 01, 2000 at 18:18:22 (GMT) From: Jerry Email: None To: Mili Subject: It matters, Mili Message:

And yes, the experience of Knowledge is what matters... Well, Mili, not everybody has such a great experience with K, and the heritage M claims to come from certainly must matter to him, or he wouldn't have dedicated a special spot on his website to it. What's he trying to prove, that he's legit? If all that matters is the experience, why is he dragging in his questionable lineage? I've browsed through The Radhasoami Tradition, looking for some insight on Maharaji. There's a brief mention of him on one page as being probably, or most certainly (I forget which), from the tradition. And that's it, nothing more. Neither he nor his father is 'officially' recognized as being a legitimate heir to any guruship. In that case, I'd have to say that Shri Hans was a bit of a rogue who took it upon himself to setup shop with no official sanction, which would make Maharaji's claim to be of an 'official' lineage, bullshit, as far as I can tell, unless he's NOT from the Radhasoami tradition, which is unlikely. The practice of satsang, service, and meditation is just too akin to the tradition of where M comes from for him not to be.

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Date: Sat, Jul 01, 2000 at 23:29:33 (GMT) From: Nigel Email: fitzroy@liverpool.ac.uk To: Jerry Subject: Great post Jerry, and... Message:

? If all that matters is the experience, why is he dragging in his questionable lineage? Or why even drag himself into it? Why not just make the whole idea of K a pass-it-on thing to be spread by people who DO have that experience? - Like a good recipe. The ultimate lifestyle advice whose source is both unknown and irrelevant.

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Date: Sat, Jul 01, 2000 at 18:21:21 (GMT) From: Jim Email: None To: Jerry Subject: Great point, Jer Message:

It's like someone flashing a fake cop badge. It matters. It matters a lot.

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Date: Sat, Jul 01, 2000 at 18:11:27 (GMT) From: Jim Email: None To: Mili Subject: Is this the same Mili who tried to shut us down? Message:

Mili, I wish you'd have answered my post below in the 'Ex-premie poll' thread because I'm really confused, like I say. Are you the same guy that: 1) try to shut down our newsgroup by telling Usenet you had the support of a whole bunch of people when, in truth, you'd just grabbed a bunch of names from all the people who'd ever posted on Harlan's page, even when it turned out that all sorts of exes were amongst them, right? Usenet told you to fuck off for being such a slimeball too, didn't they? Or something to that effect, no? Did I get that wrong? How? Please, Mili, correct me here. This is YOUR name we're talking about. You should defend yourself if I've somehow got this wrong. 2) threaten to punch out the 'original' David if you ever saw him outside a program afe yeras ago, didn't you? I mean, that wasn't some other Mili, was it? You know, with all these aliases and people just using first names and stuff, I could be mistaken. What's your recollection of that incident? I seem to recall a big discussion and how that confirmed -- possibly even spawned -- the 'no threats' policy here. Wasn't it something like that? Help me out here, Mili. The truth matters sometimes. 3) tell some woman here who posted about being sexually abused in the cult that she must be a liar and is probably an old, fat hag anyway, or, again, something like that, didn't you? I seem to remember everyone recooiling from your post like it was poison. Or maybe I'm imagining things. Please, Mili, don't leave me in the dark on this. What's your version? 4) shut down the only discussion that ever really started on yours and Harlan's page, the discussion where one premie started talking about Maharaji as the Lord and the other premie took issue with that. You DID tell them that debates of that nature weren't allowed on your forum, didn't you? I seem to remember that it provided a ton of laughs for us all here but, then again, maybe that's just my twisted memory. How do YOU recall that, huh? Again, as I said below, the last thing in the world I'd want to do, Mili, is mischaracterize anything you or anyone's done. So please, if I got any of it wrong, let me know. I stand to be corrected and all that.

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Date: Sat, Jul 01, 2000 at 04:26:31 (GMT) From: Rob Email: None To: Jim Subject: On the other hand... Message:

..maybe they are all busy following the links to Dave Lane's sites! Well I can dream. The page I linked to in my 'fat Guru' post had me in stitches, you should read it if you haven't already. I got to write to this guy, he must know some juicy stuff! Well hey, if the premies ignore this line of reasoning that's fine. But it's just going to get stronger and clearer, as we sift through it and continue the research. I think it's the strongest debunking material I've come across, just been under utilised until now.

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Date: Sat, Jul 01, 2000 at 00:12:26 (GMT) From: Anon Email: None To: Happy Subject: These are the links to read. Message:

These links may help. The 'Paramhansa Advait Mat' Book: http://www.ex-premie.org/papers/ad.htm Prof. David Lane' comments: http://www.ex-premie.org/papers/lane.htm Similarities with the Radhasoami tradition: http://www.ex-premie.org/papers/rad.htm

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Date: Fri, Jun 30, 2000 at 19:35:45 (GMT) From: Happy Email: None To: Everyone Subject: cont. Message:

The last part of my post got lost, and the last line was distorted. The continuation is here (I repeat the last paragraph): ************************ Some words about Swarupanand, Hans Ji's guru. He was born by a Sikh father and Hindu mother. His father was a modern Sikh, who had abandoned the turban. As a youth, he was attracted the politico-religious movement Arya Samaj, before joining ther Radhasoamis. After becoming a guru, he established a 'divine village', Dayalbagh, near Jamuna river (the river Hans Ji i supposed to have swom when he went to receive K?). It is still existing. Male Radhasoamis usually wear a turban, like the Sikhs. However, I would expect, although I do not know for sure, that turbans were not required in Dayalbagh, since Anandswarup was brought up modernly. According to DLM sources, Hans Ji received the four 'kriyas' (techniques) by a mahatma, suggesting that Swarupanand did indeed teach the 4-K package. This may be a post hoc construction, however. The only way to find out for sure would be to travel to Dayalbagh for some historical research. On his death, Swarupanand appointed (according to Dayalbagh sources) Gurucharandas Mehta (Mehtaji Saheb) as his decessor. He 'reigned' during the period 1937-1975, and has since then been followed by Dr. M. B. Lal as guru (1975-present). DLM sources claim that Swarupanand in fact appointed Hans Ji. Apparently disappointed with the outcome of matters, Hans Ji left and started his own guru career. He went first to Delhi and spread K there, then to Punjab, the state with so many Sikhs and Radhasoamis, and to Sind, in present-day Pakistan. He travelled in most states of Northern India. The Divine Light Mission was established and registered under the Registration Act of India in 1960, in the state of Bihar. Its Hindi name was DIVYA SANDESH PARISHAD. Accordingly, there can be absolutely no question about the fact that DLM is an offspring of the Radhasoami sect. This is a fact that already Hans Ji tried to silence, and it is never mentioned in DLM/EV. The rewriting of history is nothing new, it did not start with Prem Pal and his brother Sat Pal. It started already with Hans Ji.

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Date: Fri, Jun 30, 2000 at 22:43:22 (GMT) From: Rob Email: None To: Happy Subject: Great work Happy. Message:

It sure is a murky picture, but I congratulate you on the way you have delved into this and come through with a clearer picture of how this all started. Makes a lot more sense than the whimsical idea of Mr Rawat somehow being in a direct line of 'superbeings' which included Jesus Christ, Buddha & Krishna! If you stand back and look at the whole picture in context, it all fits in neatly, and for those premies here who STILL refuse to see the obvious, maybe I'll set to and write up the Real DLM story over the long hot summer months. Could be a movie in it too, hmmm, let me call my agent. Seriously though, I think Happy deserves a round of applause for his (or her, sorry) efforts here.

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Date: Fri, Jun 30, 2000 at 22:35:04 (GMT) From: Rob Email: None To: Roger drek Subject: Roger: 1st *Best* for drek reborn? (nt) Message:

nt

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Date: Fri, Jun 30, 2000 at 20:54:24 (GMT) From: Jean-Michel Email: None To: Happy Subject: One wild guess on why Hans hasn't been chosen Message:

He wasn't of Sikh origins. Simple. If you take a close look at all the Radhasoami gurus, they're all Sikh, have Sikh names and attires. Hans chose the Krishna outfit, I guess he tried to turn towards the hindu people, knowing that he couldn't compete with all the Radhasoami and Sant mat groups ....... Prempal tried to move even further away I guess.

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Date: Fri, Jun 30, 2000 at 17:55:09 (GMT) From: Tim Matheson Email: None To: Everyone Subject: My Guru Maharaj Ji's LILA Message:

'This is a club for those interested in the Holy and Sacred Knowledge of Guru Maharaj Ji. He now prefers to be known as Maharaji. HIS DIVINE RESIDENCE is in Malibu, CA. Many premies volunteered many years of there life to build it. I wish he'd let me kiss HIS holy lotus feet again. PLEASE Join and help me sing HIS praises. I've been lost without HIM. Let's sing ARTI some night in our chatroom.' This is the Founder's message I posted at my club/forum in honor of SATGURU MAHARAJ JI. I have been given very clear agya to make this YAHOO club the place for premies to hang out and express there joy. But MY LORD is so playful. Every time I try to post an invitation over on EV.org, it fails to post. HE is sooooo playful! I'll keep trying! http://clubs.yahoo.com/clubs/ilovemaharaji

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Date: Sat, Jul 01, 2000 at 19:24:47 (GMT) From: devotee Email: None To: Tim Matheson Subject: My Guru Maharaj Ji's LILA Message:

I encourage you to have the guts to continue your devotion trip. You are one of the only 'premies' here who has the guts to openly talk about your true feelings. Thank you for representing us so well: WE ARE DEVOTEES AND we don't care abour kissing other person's feet, especially when he is THE LORD ENCARNATED! MAHARAJI IS THE LORD, 2000. The Lord is here and be ready to approach your wallet: He is no cheappy. His lifestyle is a little too much, but well, GOD can do anything HE wants with ANYTHING, RIGHT? Guru is greater than GOD because HE shows you GOD, remember? DEVOTEE DYING FOR darshan IN THE US!! I will cry my sweetest tears ON HIS FEET!!

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Date: Fri, Jun 30, 2000 at 20:09:27 (GMT) From: X Email: None To: Tim Matheson Subject: Tims LOLA Message:

Happiness is not a consequence yet you are seeking a reward. Misguided beliefs are the source of delusion. What you experience to be true without thought is true. Love is true. X

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Date: Fri, Jun 30, 2000 at 19:33:51 (GMT) From: Know It All Email: None To: Tim Matheson Subject: My Guru Maharaj Ji's LILA Message:

Tim, my dear: If you really want to know what GMJ's lila is like, try posting all of the corporate documents on your site that Roger eDrek has deleted from his site. Then be sure to add as many photographs of GMJ as you have from your old days in DLM. I'm sure GMJ would especially appreciate you including photos of darshan, in which his feets (as you like to say) are being kissed, and photos in which he is wearing the Krishna crown and the word GOD is displayed in 5 foot tall letters behind him. I'd like to join your club, Tim, but I don't qualify. Once you add all these materials, be sure to put up a link on the forum. I bet lots of exes will go over to take a look. Good luck with your website, KIA

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Date: Fri, Jun 30, 2000 at 20:13:59 (GMT) From: Tim Matheson Email: None To: Know It All Subject: My Guru Maharaj Ji's LILA-I'm but a worthless dog Message:

Thanks for your suggestion. However, I am nothing but HIS vessel by which to spread this wondrous KNOWLEDGE. HE lets me know. HE lets me know. HE's taking me for a ride. I just hang onto HIS LOTUS FEETS.

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Date: Fri, Jun 30, 2000 at 20:18:02 (GMT) From: Know It All Email: None To: Tim Matheson Subject: Yes, but Tim.... Message:

Your site will be soooo much better with all that stuff on it. Believe me, GMJ will be very impressed! Love, KIA

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Date: Fri, Jun 30, 2000 at 20:29:28 (GMT) From: Tim Matheson Email: None To: Know It All Subject: Yes, but Tim.-As MY GURU told us once... Message:

I am the LORD thy GOD: Thou shalt not put another before ME Just surrender-KIA and all will be clear to you(translated that means beg like a dog)

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Date: Fri, Jun 30, 2000 at 21:40:43 (GMT) From: Know It All Email: None To: Tim Matheson Subject: Photos prove your point! Message:

Tim, dear: Your response to me was spot on. If you put up the photos of us kissing GMJ's lotus feets, then it will show that we all begged like dogs, just like HE wanted and still wants. Why won't you put up the darshan & Krishna photos on your site? Please.... Love, KIA

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Date: Fri, Jun 30, 2000 at 20:33:48 (GMT) From: cq Email: None To: Tim Matheson Subject: Is it true that Maharaji's pet-handler ... Message:

Is it true that Maharaji's pet-handler ... ... has to lick his dog's balls for him?

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Date: Fri, Jun 30, 2000 at 19:39:54 (GMT) From: cq Email: None To: Know It All Subject: 'LILA'??? you mean he IS divine??? (nt) Message:

'LILA'??? you mean he IS divine??? (nt)

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Date: Fri, Jun 30, 2000 at 16:07:16 (GMT) From: Jim Email: None To: Everyone Subject: Anything good happening on the French Forum? Message:

JM or anyone, I just looked at the French Forum and see a few names we've never seen here. What's going on there? Anything worth telling us all about? Are people talking about the new French anti-cult legislation? Qu'est-ce que ce pas? (Or something like that).

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Date: Fri, Jun 30, 2000 at 16:40:56 (GMT) From: Stonor Email: None To: Jim Subject: You modest guy . . . (Spanish Forum?) Message:

What's this about some work you did with Ged to translate documents for the Spanish forum? Seems it's been getting some appreciative feedback! The first premies I ever met were Latin American.

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Date: Fri, Jun 30, 2000 at 16:43:37 (GMT) From: Jim Email: None To: Stonor Subject: No, you got the WRONG guy (nt) Message:

ggg

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Date: Fri, Jun 30, 2000 at 16:49:11 (GMT) From: Stonor Email: None To: Jim Subject: Thanks for disillusionment-still good work (nt) Message:

His and yours.

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Date: Fri, Jun 30, 2000 at 16:35:10 (GMT) From: Jean-Michel Email: None To: Jim Subject: Nothing special! Message:

That new French law will definitely be a threat for EV. I don't know what they're going to do about it, but the threat is real. Imagine persons who attend the video brainwashing, then decide to go to some participation meeting with Yoram and RJ, where they'll be 'suggested' to 'donate' ..... and then decide there is something wrong in this .... and complain to authorities !! Very bad for EV ....... My take is the risk is too big, and they'll disappear under the carpet, or dissolve the organization here! I take the bets .....

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Date: Fri, Jun 30, 2000 at 19:19:01 (GMT) From: cq Email: None To: Jean-Michel Subject: NON J-M, Message:

NON J-M, WE ALL take the bets - and I'll bet you don't want to risk making a complaint to the French authorities (not that I blame you, - I've heard that Rawatti's psychic hit-squad is ready to roll...)

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Date: Fri, Jun 30, 2000 at 05:41:06 (GMT) From: Keith Email: None To: Everyone Subject: Vote Keith..for president! Message:

What do ex's think of premies? What do premies think of ex's? What do all you forum people think of me? I mean, that's what it's really all about. Isn't it? My attributes? What medication I should be on? Who approves of my writing style? What about my aftershave? Care to come and sniff? I'm so caught up with personality polls. Don't they just bring everyone out into the open? We surely owe Jim a great debt for giving us this opportunity to express our views about the strange creatures known as premies. Premies are separate from us aren't they? They smell different,don't they? Sure some are nice, if you happen to meet one on the street, but they all suffer from the same brain disease,don't they? Perhaps I'm closer to being a premie than I realise. That would explain my idiocy, wouldn't it? No one around here is stereotyping others,are they? My criticisms are just reflections of my own twisted mind. Right? Keith for president, I say! I have such a winning way about me. Will you all vote for me. Or am I to be forever an outcast? Love to you all anyway! Love love love love love! Don't you love me too? (Keith the insane)!

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Date: Fri, Jun 30, 2000 at 16:00:34 (GMT) From: Jim Email: None To: Keith Subject: It's not your cologne that stinks, Keith Message:

It's your mind.

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Date: Fri, Jun 30, 2000 at 20:45:11 (GMT) From: Frank Zappa Email: None To: Keith Subject: A little ditty Message:

It's not just for Keith, it's something for us all to share! I think it's so cute, it takes me back to college days. What's the ugliest part of your body? What's the ugliest part of your body? Some say your nose, some say your toes, but I think it's your mind I think it's your mind Well possums, it seems there was a real M in the alphabet stew after all, doesn't it? So off we go to the LOTUS FEETS chearie hearts. JohnT

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Date: Fri, Jun 30, 2000 at 23:01:45 (GMT) From: The original Frank Email: I will counsel the boy To: Frank Zappa Subject: A little ditty Message:

He is a lost soul,having suffered a recent separation, then meeting a lovely city girl......Keith , why dont we meet at the Blue Elephant . I could hold your trunk and you could spill out all that angst.........It is really a Thring to behold!!!

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Date: Sat, Jul 01, 2000 at 01:51:46 (GMT) From: Brokenhearted Lord Keith Email: None To: The original Frank Subject: To all my on-line therapists. Message:

Wow...Frankie baby, we don't have to meet. You and all the other on-line therapists (the rapists) are here to help me through. Your deep concern for my mental and emotional well being is very touching. Love love love to you all. ps: I wish I could be without the angst that most of the ex's seem to be so without. How are they so free and easy the Lord thinks to himself!

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Date: Sat, Jul 01, 2000 at 03:17:33 (GMT) From: Detective Sargeant Frank Email: Banner , Division 4 To: Brokenhearted Lord Keith Subject: To all my on-line therapists. Message:

Come on Keith , if you come here and waste your precious time with this lot , what do you expect? I've been watching you spray these pages for months now and I can tell you why you are here. Personal isolation..... are you still with that nice little dark haired girl living up the road from the Blue Elephant in Prahran? There are far more interesting Forums than this one Keith ,this is predictable and boring....I know where you are Keith and I just might look you up to share a Latte with. PS: I'm no 'regular' and I do pass through here often to see who is killing who....notice that Raina has gone...Rob is actually Drek, no matter what Jim says and he operates with Drek under a number of alias's (It is seemingly OK for them!) Did you ever see Frank Thring?

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Date: Sat, Jul 01, 2000 at 04:17:09 (GMT) From: Keith Email: None To: Detective Sargeant Frank Subject: Me...wasting my time? Message:

That little dark thing you've seen me with is my lover.(I think) Great mate! I'm enjoying myself here. And this is not the only cyber place I visit. Nor do I not have a life besides the comp. Come on Sarg, you don't know it all. You must be careful otherwise you'll end up sounding like Jim. A worse fate I cannot imagine. where would you direct me? I'm all eyes.

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Date: Sat, Jul 01, 2000 at 02:45:25 (GMT) From: gerry Email: None To: Brokenhearted Lord Keith Subject: I can diagnose you, Keith Message:

ps: I wish I could be without the angst that most of the ex's seem to be so without. How are they so free and easy the Lord thinks to himself! You got the same dis-ease Elaine has--spiritualitis. You're still a 'seeker' and you won't be a 'finder' until you really and truly give up. Surrender, but this time to life and not some goofy guru or some high falutin' concepts.

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Date: Sat, Jul 01, 2000 at 04:21:52 (GMT) From: Lord Keith of The Cosmos Email: None To: gerry Subject: Another the-rapist. I'm so lucky. Message:

Thanks Gerry. Spiritualis. Elaine and I should get together and start a new cult thinks the Lord Of The Cosmos. Thanks for the tip. Another Minister perhaps for my world ministry. And sarge thinks I'm wasting my time. Ha!

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Date: Sat, Jul 01, 2000 at 14:43:02 (GMT) From: gerry Email: None To: Lord Keith of The Cosmos Subject: You stole 'the-rapist' from me... Message:

And I stole it from Richard Bandler. Anyway, it's like this Keith. As much as you think you can work yourself into an exalted spiritual state, it's all wishful thinking. If you give up efforting and relax into acceptance of things as they are you begin to experience a whole different way of perceiving. Once you 'wake up' to the fact that consciousness is all there is and YOU are that, you begin to see it in everyone and everything. You can start with this idea as an intellectual idea, that's ok. Once you get it firmly planted in your mind that you are not in control here, General Haig, it starts to slowly perculate into your, well, heart, for lack of a better term. Sort of 'trickle down' realization, if you will. Now this doesn't mean you 'become' something else. You still experience the full range of human emotions and in a sense, you have one foot in one 'third' dimension and the other in the 'fourth.' You're still subject to all foibles of the human condition but with a little added juice of knowing that you are not the doer here and you can go with the flow since there really isn't any point in resisting things as they are, anyway. It's a gradual process, and life long one. The is no 'arriving there' as there is no real destination. And it doesn't really matter if you start this process or not, because again you have no real control over it anyway and at the moment of death it won't make one damn bit of difference. I personally think it makes life easier, and much more fun, but as Bobby is fond of saying, your mileage may vary. Jai Satchitanand, oh Lord of the Cosmos.

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Date: Sun, Jul 02, 2000 at 00:33:47 (GMT) From: Keith Email: None To: gerry Subject: I agree! Message:

Now Gerry,what makes you think that I disagree with you above post ? Indeed the only question I would add is. What exactly do we mean by 'consciousness'? OK, ONE OTHER QUESTION. How much do we really understand of the powers of consciousness? Damn it, there are a few more quetions too. But you get the gist. Good post of yours above. I rarely use the word 'spiritual' in my daily parlence.

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Date: Sat, Jul 01, 2000 at 14:04:11 (GMT) From: Frank Banner Email: None To: Lord Keith of The Cosmos Subject: Another the-rapist. I'm so lucky. Message:

Christ I forgot , you know little of Melbourne's cultural heritage. The Swiss thing would probably be a better fit?

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Date: Sun, Jul 02, 2000 at 00:36:40 (GMT) From: Master Keith Email: None To: Frank Banner Subject: Another the-rapist. I'm so lucky. Message:

As a universal citizen I am attuned to both the Swiss and the Melbournian cultures. I won't say more as some may think I'm boasting!

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Date: Fri, Jun 30, 2000 at 18:25:13 (GMT) From: Keith Email: None To: MahaJim Subject: Respect. Message:

Oh Master of all who desire to understand the true significance of respect...hahahahaha!

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Date: Fri, Jun 30, 2000 at 09:22:04 (GMT) From: Mr Bubblehead Email: None To: Keith Subject: Sigh. Message:

What would a vote for Keith stand for? What would you do to make the world a better place. If you promise to ban the rationalists like Jerry, then you got my vote Brother. And how about making it illegal to sit for more than 1 hour a day in front of a computer. And everyone has to smell at least 10 different flower species a day. Mr B

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Date: Fri, Jun 30, 2000 at 09:43:38 (GMT) From: Lord Keith Email: None To: Mr Bubblehead Subject: Sigh. Message:

I don't only want your vote Mr.Bubblehead. I am scouting for Ministers in my world goverment. How would you deal with the rationalists? Banning them is too severe. I'm running on a platform of free speech. Cannot agree either with limiting time spent on the computor. It's not 'how long' that matters but rather what you do with the length. Smelling 10 flowers a day is ok but what if you live in the desert? All replies to The Lord Of The Universe will be dealt with in one way or another. Thankyou for your interest. Love, Lord Keith.

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Date: Fri, Jun 30, 2000 at 10:02:43 (GMT) From: Mr Bubblehead Email: None To: Lord Keith Subject: Sihg Message:

I'd like to apply for a position as Minister for the Detection of Pussies, and root out all those fairies that spend their time over at Elk, reading all that pussy poetry and then badmouthing the people that wrote it. Closet pussies have got to be made accountable. How would I deal with Rationalists? 3 strikes and your dead. Mr B

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Date: Fri, Jun 30, 2000 at 11:51:05 (GMT) From: King of Kings(Keith) Email: None To: Mr Bubblehead Subject: out of the closet.. Message:

Your application is being considered. I do have a certain empathy with pussy detectors. So you do have a (bubble) 'head' start. Indeed all closet people should be brought out into the light of day and made accountable. 3 strikes and your'e dead for the rationalists. You are quite generous. I'm impressed.

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Date: Fri, Jun 30, 2000 at 11:59:36 (GMT) From: JohnT Email: None To: King of Kings(Keith) Subject: ... for G & M (nt) Message:

ha!

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Date: Fri, Jun 30, 2000 at 06:30:13 (GMT) From: Oliver Email: None To: Keith Subject: Shouldn't it be...Vote Keith..for prime minister! Message:

And no sorry I can't. I'm Voting for Kim Beasley, he'll win in a landslide. :)

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Date: Fri, Jun 30, 2000 at 08:15:28 (GMT) From: Keith Email: None To: Oliver Subject: Shouldn't it be...Vote Keith..for prime minister! Message:

Prime Minister of Australia. President of the U.S. I don't mind. I'm an international citizen. Just vote for me. Ruler of the world? Lord of the Universe? Keith for Lord. Vote here,vote now!

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