Forum V: Archive
Compiled: Wed, Jul 12, 2000 at 09:43:32 (GMT)
From: Jul 01, 2000 To: Jul 09, 2000 Page: 4 Of: 5


Tonette -:- Maharaji's web sites -:- Tues, Jul 04, 2000 at 18:37:28 (GMT)
__ TD -:- I've found a better website than Maharaji's! -:- Tues, Jul 04, 2000 at 22:47:43 (GMT)
__ __ Tonette -:- I've found a better website than Maharaji's!WOW! -:- Wed, Jul 05, 2000 at 00:04:33 (GMT)
__ Fairplay -:- Maharaji's early retirement -:- Tues, Jul 04, 2000 at 18:45:37 (GMT)
__ __ Tonette -:- High Blood Pressure? -:- Tues, Jul 04, 2000 at 19:17:33 (GMT)
__ __ __ cq -:- Tonette, you must be a premie - that is OUT -:- Tues, Jul 04, 2000 at 19:21:34 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Tonette -:- Sorry didn't mean to offend -:- Tues, Jul 04, 2000 at 19:47:17 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ gerry -:- I don't know, cq... -:- Tues, Jul 04, 2000 at 19:36:22 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ cq -:- and I, cq, don't know ... -:- Tues, Jul 04, 2000 at 20:09:50 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Tonette -:- You're right,below the belt -:- Tues, Jul 04, 2000 at 20:36:42 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ cq -:- me too -:- Wed, Jul 05, 2000 at 17:39:02 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Tonette -:- Yes just wishful thinking -:- Tues, Jul 04, 2000 at 19:51:57 (GMT)
__ __ Tonette -:- I think he's plotting -:- Tues, Jul 04, 2000 at 18:52:16 (GMT)
__ __ __ FAirplay -:- I think he's plotting -:- Tues, Jul 04, 2000 at 18:55:50 (GMT)
__ __ FAirplay -:- Maharaji's early retirement -:- Tues, Jul 04, 2000 at 18:48:29 (GMT)
__ __ __ Tonette -:- Washington, DC here (nt) -:- Tues, Jul 04, 2000 at 18:53:24 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ gErRy -:- Why, that would be Houston, TX for 'Fairplay' -:- Tues, Jul 04, 2000 at 20:19:43 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Tonette -:- Tippin my hand? What? -:- Tues, Jul 04, 2000 at 20:39:50 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ gerry -:- Sorry, I was addressing 'Fairplay' not you (nt) -:- Tues, Jul 04, 2000 at 20:51:37 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ gerry -:- I take it back, Fairplay...and Jim, -:- Wed, Jul 05, 2000 at 02:44:36 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Fairboy -:- erry Gerry Gerry -:- Wed, Jul 05, 2000 at 02:50:46 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Gerry -:- Christ, another armchair shrink -:- Wed, Jul 05, 2000 at 02:56:19 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Fairplay -:- Christ, another armchair shrink -:- Wed, Jul 05, 2000 at 03:24:04 (GMT)

Tonette -:- Any ex initiator/instructors out here? -:- Tues, Jul 04, 2000 at 18:29:31 (GMT)
__ Susan -:- Irving? Elliot? Dorcas? (nt) -:- Tues, Jul 04, 2000 at 23:14:34 (GMT)
__ __ Veep -:- Irving? Elliot? Dorcas? (nt) -:- Thurs, Jul 06, 2000 at 17:23:53 (GMT)
__ __ Fairplay -:- Please respond -:- Tues, Jul 04, 2000 at 23:25:50 (GMT)
__ __ __ gERry -:- Where'd you go to school, you retard... -:- Wed, Jul 05, 2000 at 02:32:51 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Fairplay -:- Where'd you go to school, you retard... -:- Wed, Jul 05, 2000 at 02:57:09 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ gerry -:- You started it, Asshole -:- Wed, Jul 05, 2000 at 03:01:09 (GMT)

Jim -:- Analysis leads to paralysis -- but let's go for it -:- Tues, Jul 04, 2000 at 16:31:02 (GMT)
__ Tonette -:- Open discussion? -:- Tues, Jul 04, 2000 at 18:43:20 (GMT)

Gerry -:- Time to Clean Out the Barn? -:- Tues, Jul 04, 2000 at 15:17:15 (GMT)
__ Katie -:- Time to Clean Out the Barn? -:- Tues, Jul 04, 2000 at 18:49:47 (GMT)
__ __ Helen -:- off topic of the thread--trying to catch up -:- Wed, Jul 05, 2000 at 23:28:33 (GMT)
__ __ __ Katie -:- off topic of the thread--trying to catch up -:- Thurs, Jul 06, 2000 at 12:04:42 (GMT)
__ __ VP -:- Time to Clean Out the Barn? -:- Wed, Jul 05, 2000 at 19:00:23 (GMT)
__ Fairplay -:- Calling the kettle black? -:- Tues, Jul 04, 2000 at 18:39:19 (GMT)
__ __ gerry -:- Another big brave anonymous poster -:- Tues, Jul 04, 2000 at 18:44:40 (GMT)
__ __ __ Fairplay -:- Another big brave anonymous poster -:- Tues, Jul 04, 2000 at 18:50:01 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ gerry -:- Another big brave anonymous poster -:- Tues, Jul 04, 2000 at 19:06:59 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Fairytale -:- So brave anonymous poster, Gerry -:- Wed, Jul 05, 2000 at 07:58:37 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Gerry -:- I've given out my full name and address several -:- Wed, Jul 05, 2000 at 14:47:41 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Oh I get it -:- Fairytale is Mili -:- Wed, Jul 05, 2000 at 14:51:37 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ gerry -:- Piss off, Bjorn you pervert (nt) -:- Wed, Jul 05, 2000 at 13:56:00 (GMT)
__ Powerman -:- Time to Clean Out the Barn? -:- Tues, Jul 04, 2000 at 18:23:18 (GMT)
__ Rob -:- What to do with the manure? -:- Tues, Jul 04, 2000 at 15:53:11 (GMT)
__ __ Tonette -:- What a great idea!!!! (nt) -:- Tues, Jul 04, 2000 at 18:44:59 (GMT)
__ __ Gerry -:- Good Idea, Rob -:- Tues, Jul 04, 2000 at 16:06:40 (GMT)
__ __ __ hamzen -:- Think you've missed one key element though -:- Tues, Jul 04, 2000 at 17:37:08 (GMT)

Tim Matheson -:- Re Cults: My MASTER set me free -:- Tues, Jul 04, 2000 at 11:37:08 (GMT)
__ Simon Satsang -:- Re Cults: My MASTER set me free -:- Tues, Jul 04, 2000 at 15:21:15 (GMT)
__ __ Lotus Eater -:- Re Cults: My MASTER set me free -:- Wed, Jul 05, 2000 at 00:01:22 (GMT)

Daneane -:- Higher Octave Music -:- Tues, Jul 04, 2000 at 03:01:10 (GMT)
__ The Critic -:- Higher Octave Music -:- Tues, Jul 04, 2000 at 09:31:07 (GMT)
__ __ Daneane -:- EV warned me 'bout u anonymous posters.(nt) -:- Tues, Jul 04, 2000 at 16:29:42 (GMT)

Joe -:- Well, we sure got Maharaji's attention!!!! -:- Mon, Jul 03, 2000 at 21:46:40 (GMT)
__ Powerman -:- OT - Ralph Nader -:- Tues, Jul 04, 2000 at 19:51:37 (GMT)
__ __ Joe -:- OT - Ralph Nader -:- Wed, Jul 05, 2000 at 23:17:18 (GMT)
__ __ __ Powerman -:- OT - Ralph Nader -:- Thurs, Jul 06, 2000 at 00:23:20 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ VP -:- OT - Ralph Nader -:- Thurs, Jul 06, 2000 at 18:48:37 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Katie -:- I don't want to vote for Gore, but... -:- Thurs, Jul 06, 2000 at 12:08:54 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Powerman -:- I don't want to vote for Gore, but... -:- Thurs, Jul 06, 2000 at 15:50:25 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Joe -:- I don't want to vote for Gore, but... -:- Thurs, Jul 06, 2000 at 17:20:40 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ gerry -:- What choice, eh fellas... -:- Thurs, Jul 06, 2000 at 00:58:00 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Joe -:- NOBODY deserves Bush, not even TEXAS (nt) -:- Thurs, Jul 06, 2000 at 00:43:21 (GMT)
__ __ __ Daneane -:- OT - Ralph Nader -:- Wed, Jul 05, 2000 at 23:47:00 (GMT)
__ Jerry -:- You read that whole book? -:- Tues, Jul 04, 2000 at 13:51:43 (GMT)
__ __ Joe -:- Yeah... -:- Tues, Jul 04, 2000 at 17:53:55 (GMT)
__ __ __ Jerry -:- Yeah... -:- Wed, Jul 05, 2000 at 02:43:15 (GMT)
__ Jim -:- Come on, Joe! -:- Tues, Jul 04, 2000 at 01:33:41 (GMT)
__ __ Dame Edna -:- Come on, Joe! -:- Tues, Jul 04, 2000 at 09:19:26 (GMT)
__ __ __ Joe -:- Come on, Joe! -:- Tues, Jul 04, 2000 at 18:08:08 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Dame Edna -:- Come on, Joe! -:- Thurs, Jul 06, 2000 at 02:05:22 (GMT)
__ __ Joe -:- It was Sydney fun....I guess....(OT) -:- Tues, Jul 04, 2000 at 03:43:01 (GMT)
__ __ __ TD -:- Sydney looked better than Tom's scar-Face off! -:- Tues, Jul 04, 2000 at 04:43:41 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Joe -:- Sydney looked better than Tom's scar-Face off! -:- Tues, Jul 04, 2000 at 18:00:16 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ TD -:- Sydney looked better than Tom's scar-Face off! -:- Tues, Jul 04, 2000 at 22:33:51 (GMT)
__ __ TD -:- MI-2 action was good, but story was crap! -:- Tues, Jul 04, 2000 at 02:30:31 (GMT)
__ Sir David -:- Will Glen Whittaker remember this? -:- Tues, Jul 04, 2000 at 01:09:09 (GMT)
__ __ lotus eater -:- Glen Whittaker -:- Tues, Jul 04, 2000 at 23:47:10 (GMT)
__ __ __ Know it All -:- Glen Whittaker -:- Thurs, Jul 06, 2000 at 06:26:04 (GMT)
__ __ __ Fairplay -:- Glen Whittaker -:- Wed, Jul 05, 2000 at 03:29:54 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Monmot -:- Definitely Not A Butterfly -:- Wed, Jul 05, 2000 at 03:57:48 (GMT)
__ __ Sir David -:- Post script - We are the real premies -:- Tues, Jul 04, 2000 at 06:44:03 (GMT)
__ Joey -:- Great post...vintage JW...glad you're back ! nt -:- Mon, Jul 03, 2000 at 23:58:52 (GMT)
__ Elaine -:- Welcome back -:- Mon, Jul 03, 2000 at 22:35:09 (GMT)
__ __ Joe -:- Welcome back -:- Tues, Jul 04, 2000 at 18:19:59 (GMT)

Roger eDrek -:- Not sure if my battles are over yet -:- Mon, Jul 03, 2000 at 19:39:37 (GMT)
__ Tonette -:- Please don't close your website -:- Tues, Jul 04, 2000 at 20:49:07 (GMT)
__ Tonette -:- Defense Mapping?Right down the street -:- Tues, Jul 04, 2000 at 18:21:12 (GMT)
__ __ JtF -:- No, No, Tonette -:- Tues, Jul 04, 2000 at 21:26:10 (GMT)
__ __ Katie -:- Defense Mapping?Right down the street -:- Tues, Jul 04, 2000 at 18:26:12 (GMT)
__ Jean-Michel -:- Just a guess -:- Tues, Jul 04, 2000 at 13:29:01 (GMT)
__ __ Roger eDrek -:- That's my guess, too. (nt) -:- Wed, Jul 05, 2000 at 16:43:06 (GMT)
__ Ben Lurking -:- Not sure if my battles are over yet -:- Mon, Jul 03, 2000 at 23:28:21 (GMT)
__ __ Roger eDrek -:- The satellite photo of his house in Malibu? -:- Tues, Jul 04, 2000 at 02:28:36 (GMT)
__ Ben Lurking -:- Not sure if my battles are over yet -:- Mon, Jul 03, 2000 at 22:07:03 (GMT)
__ __ SB -:- Not sure if my battles are over yet -:- Mon, Jul 03, 2000 at 22:19:54 (GMT)

Jim -:- My 'feedback' about vegetarianism -:- Mon, Jul 03, 2000 at 19:23:12 (GMT)
__ Elaine -:- My 'feedback' about vegetarianism -:- Mon, Jul 03, 2000 at 22:46:27 (GMT)
__ __ Jim -:- My 'feedback' about vegetarianism -:- Tues, Jul 04, 2000 at 01:23:58 (GMT)
__ __ __ cq -:- Is Elaine spouting the Maha's old story -:- Tues, Jul 04, 2000 at 18:42:37 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Elaine -:- No,cq,she's not---- -:- Tues, Jul 04, 2000 at 20:41:11 (GMT)
__ __ __ SB -:- LOL (nt) -:- Tues, Jul 04, 2000 at 01:57:59 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Tonette -:- what ignorance! -:- Tues, Jul 04, 2000 at 20:55:40 (GMT)

Jim -:- My latest 'feedback' to EV -:- Mon, Jul 03, 2000 at 18:19:31 (GMT)
__ Fairplay -:- Who wrote that stuff? -:- Tues, Jul 04, 2000 at 23:21:45 (GMT)
__ __ Jim -:- Who are you? -:- Wed, Jul 05, 2000 at 01:51:38 (GMT)
__ ham -:- Top one, espec'y truth/premies, nothing like -:- Tues, Jul 04, 2000 at 18:15:43 (GMT)
__ TD -:- Great letter Jim! (nt) -:- Mon, Jul 03, 2000 at 23:17:08 (GMT)
__ Charlie -:- top stuff Jim -:- Mon, Jul 03, 2000 at 22:18:26 (GMT)
__ SB -:- Excellent Jim!! (nt) -:- Mon, Jul 03, 2000 at 20:08:53 (GMT)
__ __ gerry -:- My tidbit to EV -:- Tues, Jul 04, 2000 at 02:10:43 (GMT)
__ __ __ gerry -:- Is Elan Vital a Cult? -:- Tues, Jul 04, 2000 at 02:44:49 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Joey -:- Is Elan Vital a Cult? -:- Tues, Jul 04, 2000 at 03:56:32 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Joey -:- PS, RE: Is Elan Vital a Cult? -:- Tues, Jul 04, 2000 at 04:28:57 (GMT)

cq -:- For the record ... -:- Mon, Jul 03, 2000 at 17:52:21 (GMT)
__ Ben Lurking -:- For the record ... -:- Mon, Jul 03, 2000 at 23:03:45 (GMT)
__ __ cq -:- For the record ... -:- Tues, Jul 04, 2000 at 17:16:55 (GMT)
__ Tonette -:- Right On!Someone needs to do the right thing -:- Mon, Jul 03, 2000 at 18:25:17 (GMT)
__ __ Joey -:- RE: tax returns... -:- Mon, Jul 03, 2000 at 18:48:02 (GMT)
__ __ cq -:- talking of tax returns and the like ... -:- Mon, Jul 03, 2000 at 18:36:46 (GMT)
__ __ __ Joey -:- talking of tax returns and the like ... -:- Mon, Jul 03, 2000 at 18:56:11 (GMT)
__ __ __ Tonette -:- where is their headquarters? -:- Mon, Jul 03, 2000 at 18:43:58 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Joey -:- Good question, Tonette -:- Mon, Jul 03, 2000 at 19:04:25 (GMT)

Joey -:- No members...just volunteers???? -:- Mon, Jul 03, 2000 at 17:38:12 (GMT)
__ SB -:- No members...just volunteers???? -:- Mon, Jul 03, 2000 at 20:38:23 (GMT)
__ Coach -:- No members...just volunteers???? -:- Mon, Jul 03, 2000 at 18:04:26 (GMT)
__ __ Joey -:- Got news for you , Coach -:- Mon, Jul 03, 2000 at 21:01:04 (GMT)
__ __ __ Coach -:- Ye Gods -:- Tues, Jul 04, 2000 at 02:07:14 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Joey -:- Ye Gods -:- Tues, Jul 04, 2000 at 03:06:04 (GMT)
__ __ __ Elaine -:- Got news for you , Coach -:- Mon, Jul 03, 2000 at 22:51:34 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Joey -:- Got news for you , Elaine -:- Mon, Jul 03, 2000 at 23:51:17 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Elaine -:- Got news for you , Elaine -:- Tues, Jul 04, 2000 at 20:48:11 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ SB -:- I can't stand your moronic statements , Elaine -:- Wed, Jul 05, 2000 at 03:43:01 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ gerry -:- You bug me, Elaine. -:- Tues, Jul 04, 2000 at 00:33:02 (GMT)

Happy -:- on guru lineage -:- Mon, Jul 03, 2000 at 16:13:55 (GMT)
__ Fairplay -:- on guru lineage -:- Tues, Jul 04, 2000 at 20:05:24 (GMT)
__ __ gErRy -:- Hey Fairplay... -:- Tues, Jul 04, 2000 at 20:11:48 (GMT)
__ Fairplay -:- Radhasoami Lineages -:- Tues, Jul 04, 2000 at 19:42:28 (GMT)
__ Rob -:- Further research -:- Tues, Jul 04, 2000 at 00:04:38 (GMT)
__ __ Happy -:- One more detail -:- Tues, Jul 04, 2000 at 11:27:13 (GMT)
__ __ __ Mili -:- One more detail -:- Tues, Jul 04, 2000 at 11:42:51 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Rob -:- One more detail -:- Tues, Jul 04, 2000 at 16:21:15 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Mili -:- One more detail -:- Wed, Jul 05, 2000 at 07:55:13 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Rob -:- Predictable -:- Thurs, Jul 06, 2000 at 02:30:47 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ cq -:- Let's clear this up once and for all shall we? -:- Wed, Jul 05, 2000 at 17:15:21 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Happy -:- One more detail -:- Tues, Jul 04, 2000 at 11:57:51 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Jean-Michel -:- and furthermore -:- Tues, Jul 04, 2000 at 14:33:53 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Jean-Michal -:- OK, but still missing link with Jesus and Buddha! -:- Tues, Jul 04, 2000 at 13:13:11 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Jim -:- Don't forget Shakespeare and King David(nt) -:- Tues, Jul 04, 2000 at 15:51:18 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ cq -:- or Clark Kent and Mr Blobby (nt) -:- Tues, Jul 04, 2000 at 18:25:04 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Happy -:- And... -:- Tues, Jul 04, 2000 at 14:43:09 (GMT)
__ Jim -:- Thanks once again, Happy -:- Mon, Jul 03, 2000 at 17:32:12 (GMT)
__ __ Happy -:- Thanks once again, Happy -:- Mon, Jul 03, 2000 at 18:52:30 (GMT)
__ __ __ hamzen -:- As usual, interesting stuff from you -:- Tues, Jul 04, 2000 at 18:39:41 (GMT)
__ __ __ Jim -:- Thanks once again, Happy -:- Mon, Jul 03, 2000 at 19:00:31 (GMT)

Jean-Michel -:- Anth? Tonight's pilgrimage? (OT) -:- Mon, Jul 03, 2000 at 15:52:32 (GMT)

Tim Matheson -:- THE INNER BUZZ(vol. 1)-HE's no longer GOD -:- Mon, Jul 03, 2000 at 11:31:13 (GMT)
__ May be -:- Tim = Pauline Premie = Help = Katie? -:- Tues, Jul 04, 2000 at 10:43:45 (GMT)
__ __ Katie -:- see my post below (nt) -:- Tues, Jul 04, 2000 at 12:31:42 (GMT)
__ Sir Dave -:- THE INNER BUZZ(vol. 1)-HE's no longer GOD -:- Mon, Jul 03, 2000 at 12:29:22 (GMT)
__ __ Know It All -:- THE INNER BUZZ(vol. 1)-HE's no longer GOD -:- Mon, Jul 03, 2000 at 15:54:30 (GMT)
__ __ __ Sir Dave -:- Bottom of the class for me -:- Mon, Jul 03, 2000 at 17:32:48 (GMT)
__ __ xxpremie -:- THE INNER BUZZ(vol. 1)-HE's no longer GOD -:- Mon, Jul 03, 2000 at 12:49:08 (GMT)
__ __ __ Hal -:- xxx to xx -:- Mon, Jul 03, 2000 at 13:43:40 (GMT)


Date: Tues, Jul 04, 2000 at 18:37:28 (GMT)
From: Tonette
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: Maharaji's web sites
Message:
Besides his official one (click on the light to begin-oh pleeeze!), EV, enjoying life, and the other one referenced from EV's site how many more of his web sites are out there? How many more ex sites are there besides this one and Roger's? On M's site there aren't listed any up and coming programs. Why? Isn't this the time of Guru Puja? It seems awfully quite out there.
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Date: Tues, Jul 04, 2000 at 22:47:43 (GMT)
From: TD
Email: None
To: Tonette
Subject: I've found a better website than Maharaji's!
Message:
Click on the light - huh, that's passe! Check out the intro to this website from a religious group - Maharaji could learn a hell of a lot from these guys. You'll need to have Flash player installed, but it's worth it - especially for the big booming words from God speaking.

Click to here God speak

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Date: Wed, Jul 05, 2000 at 00:04:33 (GMT)
From: Tonette
Email: None
To: TD
Subject: I've found a better website than Maharaji's!WOW!
Message:
You're right. He should take some lessons. Wonder if this pastor isn't an ex? LMAO! Many more bells and whistles!!
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Date: Tues, Jul 04, 2000 at 18:45:37 (GMT)
From: Fairplay
Email: None
To: Tonette
Subject: Maharaji's early retirement
Message:
Dear Tonetter,

I like your curiousity - the Dalai Lama once said spy on your guru and he's a pretty nice guy if you ask me - sensible too.

I think M has taken early retirement due to high blood pressure etc. He is now giving knowledge by showing the new recruits a video of the four techniques which lets him off the hook. He doesn't even have to be around but he's not announcing anything of course in his usual style. The premies just have to put two and two together and excuse me for saying this but they usually come up with five.

Fairplay

Fairplay?

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Date: Tues, Jul 04, 2000 at 19:17:33 (GMT)
From: Tonette
Email: None
To: Fairplay
Subject: High Blood Pressure?
Message:
Wonderful!! Maybe he'll blow an aneurysm like his wife.
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Date: Tues, Jul 04, 2000 at 19:21:34 (GMT)
From: cq
Email: None
To: Tonette
Subject: Tonette, you must be a premie - that is OUT
Message:
Tonette, you must be a premie (or else a premie's angry partner) - that is OUT

as in

OUT OF ORDER.

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Date: Tues, Jul 04, 2000 at 19:47:17 (GMT)
From: Tonette
Email: None
To: cq
Subject: Sorry didn't mean to offend
Message:
Yes it was out of order but I couldn't resist. How does it go-'once a premie always a premie?' NOT! I feel so violated by this guy and his whole entourage, wife included. Yes I am angry and would love to see M pay for all that he did. I didn't lose what most have lost, trust funds, years and years of their youth, family, marriages but he did prey on me and my innocent youth. He at least owes me an apology! I am married to a premie that is true and most days when I think of his imvolvement with EV which is very minimal I worry because I think M is a VERY dangerous and unstable guy.
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Date: Tues, Jul 04, 2000 at 19:36:22 (GMT)
From: gerry
Email: None
To: cq
Subject: I don't know, cq...
Message:
That wasn't threat, more like wishful thinking. Of course, I have sympathy for Marilyn's health problems, and I don't think Tonette was NECESSARILY taking pleasure in that, but we'd have to ask her.

Other than threats, I don't have a problem with how anyone wants to vent their anger at the cult, it's apolgists, and The Speaker, himself.

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Date: Tues, Jul 04, 2000 at 20:09:50 (GMT)
From: cq
Email: None
To: gerry and Tonette
Subject: and I, cq, don't know ...
Message:
and I, cq, don't know where, or IF anyone SHOULD draw the line. I just know that, in my book, Tonette's last post was distinctly 'below the belt', no matter HOW passionately she hates the Maha - or her husband. So I posted how I felt.

Question: Wouldn't Elan Vital be only too eager to cite her heart-felt (-NO sarcasm intended Tonette, honestly-) criticism as an example of the kind of unfair treatment that their 'non-leader' (i.e. Maharaji) has to contend with?

Shit, I don't know. Yeah, this site CAN be an outlet for the full range of feelings (often bitter) that people feel toward a con-artist of the Maha's magnitude.

More than that, it SHOULD be.

So, apologies, Tonette, I guess it all boils down to the fact that it's more important to have a place where you can say it like it is (for you) than to have to to kow-tow to some fucking ideal of what fair play should be.

As if Mr Rawat knows what that is.

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Date: Tues, Jul 04, 2000 at 20:36:42 (GMT)
From: Tonette
Email: None
To: cq
Subject: You're right,below the belt
Message:
I have to keep my anger in check and make this forum productive for premies who are starting to question as well for aspirants who are searching. As well for ex premies who are watching, waiting for when this mission really gets out of hand. Let's not forget this guy is dangerous. I have and will write more letters to my congressman/women to alert them to this most awful fraud. I don't hate my husband of 23 years. He's an excellent husband and father. Doesn't donate our money, etc. However, I am constantly on the lookout for for emphasis on Devotion and Master from the programs he attends and the videos he buys/borrows. If I'm not banned from future programs I intend to buy a ticket for one. Call it reconnaissance. And I certainly have poisoned my children's mind about CULTS!
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Date: Wed, Jul 05, 2000 at 17:39:02 (GMT)
From: cq
Email: None
To: Tonette
Subject: me too
Message:
sorry for that mistake about you and your husband there, Tonette. Don't know how I got that impression (misreading one of your earlier posts possibly, but still no excuse). There's at least one other premie and ex-premie partnership that I know of, and kudos to them (and to you and yours) for managing it. I guess relationships that can withstand such a fundamental opposition of beliefs have got to be founded on something much stronger!

BTW, re. what you say about your kids and cults - poisoning you call it? Nah, it's more like innnoculation. Building up their immune system. Let's hope they'll thank you for it one day.

Regards,

Chris

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Date: Tues, Jul 04, 2000 at 19:51:57 (GMT)
From: Tonette
Email: None
To: gerry
Subject: Yes just wishful thinking
Message:
How could I possibly be a threat to M? I've never even gotten to speak with him! Wasn't too high up in the grace race you see. Also I wasn't rich either. No funds to pluck. Just wishful thinking but please don't let anything happen to him before he has to FACE what he did! And I want to be there when it happens too! Perferably in a court of USA law!
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Date: Tues, Jul 04, 2000 at 18:52:16 (GMT)
From: Tonette
Email: None
To: Fairplay
Subject: I think he's plotting
Message:
May seem paranoid but he may be gearing up for a real hoe down. I imagine he doesn't have to worry too much since his investments of other people's coerced money is probably giving him lots of income. Besides think of all the savings he's realizing since Durga Ji doesn't have to buy all those designer dresses no more.
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Date: Tues, Jul 04, 2000 at 18:55:50 (GMT)
From: FAirplay
Email: None
To: Tonette
Subject: I think he's plotting
Message:
Dear Tonette,

Why doesn.t she have to buy designer dresses anymore?

There has been so much enphasis on fundraising over the last couple of years. Those in the know must want to give him a really good early retirement bonus/pension.

Fairplay

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Date: Tues, Jul 04, 2000 at 18:48:29 (GMT)
From: FAirplay
Email: Noe
To: Tonette
Subject: Maharaji's early retirement
Message:
Dear Tonette,

Noticed we are both in the here and now. Same timezone. Are we living in the same place I wonder?

Fairplay

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Date: Tues, Jul 04, 2000 at 18:53:24 (GMT)
From: Tonette
Email: None
To: FAirplay
Subject: Washington, DC here (nt)
Message:
NT
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Date: Tues, Jul 04, 2000 at 20:19:43 (GMT)
From: gErRy
Email: None
To: Tonette
Subject: Why, that would be Houston, TX for 'Fairplay'
Message:
Howdy Runamok. Can't say I'm glad your back, but thanks for tipping your hand so soon...
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Date: Tues, Jul 04, 2000 at 20:39:50 (GMT)
From: Tonette
Email: None
To: gErRy
Subject: Tippin my hand? What?
Message:
Never been here before 3days ago. Just discovered this site from an ex-premie. What do you mean? Are you mixing me up with someone else?
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Date: Tues, Jul 04, 2000 at 20:51:37 (GMT)
From: gerry
Email: None
To: Tonette
Subject: Sorry, I was addressing 'Fairplay' not you (nt)
Message:
nt = no text
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Date: Wed, Jul 05, 2000 at 02:44:36 (GMT)
From: gerry
Email: None
To: Fairplay
Subject: I take it back, Fairplay...and Jim,
Message:
this guy started in on me out of the clear blue without the least bit of introduction. I like a kiss at least before getting fucked. So I'll handle it my way in case you're getting worked up about 'jumping the gun.'

Which I kinda did with you Fairplay. You're not Runamok. You're too stupid to be Runamok. Similiar psuedo-intellectuality and chickenshit idea of fairness while hiding behind a fake name, similiar strain of passive-ggressivity, but no, you're not the Funboy. But you bring out the best in me like he did so I may just call you 'Fairboy.' That OK with you?

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Date: Wed, Jul 05, 2000 at 02:50:46 (GMT)
From: Fairboy
Email: None
To: gerry
Subject: erry Gerry Gerry
Message:
Dear Gerry,

Are you ever an angry one. If there's anyone on this forum that could do with some grief/anger/loss counselling it's you.

Best Wishes,

Fairboy

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Date: Wed, Jul 05, 2000 at 02:56:19 (GMT)
From: Gerry
Email: None
To: Fairboy
Subject: Christ, another armchair shrink
Message:
So have you ever posted here under another name, Fairboy, besides 'Fairplay,' that is. Simple question, why can't you answer it?
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Date: Wed, Jul 05, 2000 at 03:24:04 (GMT)
From: Fairplay
Email: None
To: Gerry
Subject: Christ, another armchair shrink
Message:
No
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Date: Tues, Jul 04, 2000 at 18:29:31 (GMT)
From: Tonette
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: Any ex initiator/instructors out here?
Message:
What ever happened to Grace Wallace, Randy Proudy? Are they still mover/shakers like Ira Woods? Were they ever paid, the instructors that is. And speaking of messed up people, I feel so sorry for a those premie kids that grew up around this nonsense. How they were treated at programs and those idiot names given by the Guru. How many Sunita's are out there by the way. What was the Goo-roo's favorite name for boys by the way?
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Date: Tues, Jul 04, 2000 at 23:14:34 (GMT)
From: Susan
Email: None
To: Tonette
Subject: Irving? Elliot? Dorcas? (nt)
Message:
nt
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Date: Thurs, Jul 06, 2000 at 17:23:53 (GMT)
From: Veep
Email: None
To: Susan
Subject: Irving? Elliot? Dorcas? (nt)
Message:
Susan,
Did Maharaji REALLY name boys 'Dorcas'? That is a common seventeeth century Puritan name for GIRLS.

Poor kids.

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Date: Tues, Jul 04, 2000 at 23:25:50 (GMT)
From: Fairplay
Email: None
To: Susan
Subject: Please respond
Message:
Dear Susan,

Elan Vital are asking for you and Anthony to resond to your allegations. For justice to be done you need to take them up on the challenge. Where is Anthony??

Jagdeo is still around and Elan Vital need to put their money where their mouth is. I thought it was Glen that wrote this because of the mention of Jagdeo but I notice it was on the U.S. site and wonder who wrote it.

Love to You, Susan,

Fairplay

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Date: Wed, Jul 05, 2000 at 02:32:51 (GMT)
From: gERry
Email: None
To: Fairplay
Subject: Where'd you go to school, you retard...
Message:
Elan Vital are asking for you and Anthony to resond to your allegations. For justice to be done you need to take them up on the challenge

You're wearing on my nerves already, asshole. Back waaaaay off Susan unless you're lookin to be the proud owner of size ten bung hole.

Oh and it's Elan Vital is... shit-for-brains.

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Date: Wed, Jul 05, 2000 at 02:57:09 (GMT)
From: Fairplay
Email: None
To: gERry
Subject: Where'd you go to school, you retard...
Message:
Gerry,

Get off my case. I have corresponded with Susan and know that she has been asking for this abuse to get handled for a long while. Now hopefully it is. Whay are you being so abusive?

Fairplay

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Date: Wed, Jul 05, 2000 at 03:01:09 (GMT)
From: gerry
Email: None
To: Fairplay
Subject: You started it, Asshole
Message:
You come in out of the blue and start giving me shit. So who are you? Have you ever posted here under another name?

Why should I get off your case?

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Date: Tues, Jul 04, 2000 at 16:31:02 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: Analysis leads to paralysis -- but let's go for it
Message:
My latest 'feedback' to EV:

In your FAQ about whether or not EV is a cult you suggest that you've found that it is not but only after facing the question squarely and openly:

Elan Vital is not a cult of any kind. However actions speak louder than words, so we have examined commonly held opinions on what constitutes a cult and compared them with the actual activities of Elan Vital in the table below.

No doubt, you were pained to avoid the kind of 'analysis that leads to paralysis' (Maharaji, late twentieth century). You then invite readers to do their own thinking, following the chart you drew up of what you consider common cult descriptors.

In my respectful opinion, I think there might be just a small risk that your analysis might be somewhat biased, your best intentions notwithstanding. After all, as you surely understand, cults are generally not prone to recognize their own cult identities. Indeed, I personally can't think of a single case to the contrary. Can you?

Furthermore, when I review even yoour own checklist I find some of your answers exquisitely bizarre and unpersuasive. How you dismiss Maharaji's charismatic image for his VOLUNTEER STUDENTS is but one example. Trust me.

So what I wonder is whether or not, in the interest of science and all that, you'd be willing to ever had an OPEN DISCUSSION about this?

Got to run. Look forward to your early reply.

Jim Heller

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Date: Tues, Jul 04, 2000 at 18:43:20 (GMT)
From: Tonette
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Open discussion?
Message:
The only way EV would possibly have an open discussion would be if we all agreed to watch 20 hours of non-stop satsang-whoops forgot that term was dead-I meant videos. And don't expect M there during the open discussion, don't you know he's was too all powerful-I mean too busy designing universes to bother with us 'weak and ignorant.'
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Date: Tues, Jul 04, 2000 at 15:17:15 (GMT)
From: Gerry
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: Time to Clean Out the Barn?
Message:
OK, I think we can all agree that what we have going here is basically a support group for people who wasted so many valuable years of their lives in a destructive and limiting CULT.

It's also a place where we can air our grievences and expose the lies and manipulations of Prem Rawat.

So what purpose does it serve to allow people like Deputy Dogg, Elaine and other apologists continued access to OUR site to rail against the people here and inject their insidious, odious little 'opinions' all throughout the discussion?

I can see letting them come in, outgas, get trounced and then get bounced. But I don't see the value in allowing them to stick around, fester and continue to stink up the place with their bullshit.

In a thread below, Deputy Dog (fucking a, ''deputy dog'' what kind of bullshit name is that?) call Michael a ''prick.'' Is there anyone here who thinks Mickey the Pharisee deserves to treated this way on a forum for HIS benefit? This is abusive to a high order. Must we let this jerk DD have free reign like that?

In another thread, Dogg smoozes Katie and tells her she can 'always try Knowledge again later.' Do we need this kind of advice here? Dogg has way overstayyd his 'welcome' here, in my opinion.

And this 'Elaine' (that's not her real name is it?) comes her all nicey nice and continues on her little path of sniping and taking potshots at people hoping she won't be noticed and called on it. It gets tiring and is counter to the purpose of this site, again, IMO.

My suggestion would be allow these people their initial blast of venom and get rid of them when they start to smell like the rotten fish they are. After all, they are ''guests'' here and we all know how welcome guests are after three days.

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Date: Tues, Jul 04, 2000 at 18:49:47 (GMT)
From: Katie
Email: None
To: Gerry
Subject: Time to Clean Out the Barn?
Message:
Gerry et al -
Before you clean out the barn (snicker), I'd really like to know what Deputy Dawg and Elaine think of the Elan Vital FAQ. Neither of them has commented on them to any extent. It's hard for me to understand how either of them can associate themselves with an organization that writes this kind of stuff - and by extension, with Maharaji.

Of course, there is always the 'fact' that Maharaji has not associated himself formally with these FAQ's - thus people can not like them and blame the 'premies who wrote them' without indicting Maharaji. Yet I cannot believe that he doesn't approve of these FAQ's - otherwise they wouldn't be on line.

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Date: Wed, Jul 05, 2000 at 23:28:33 (GMT)
From: Helen
Email: None
To: Katie
Subject: off topic of the thread--trying to catch up
Message:
Hi Katie, I am already puking from the general stuff I am gathering just from readin a few posts, Can anyone fill me in quickly, if they have time? The task of catching up after being off line for a week or so is daunting. Is it true that M has revised his website (or his gremlins have) and it says that Abi and Susan wouldn't talk to the EV people abotu the Jagdeo accusations?

Say hey to Brian
Love
Helen

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Date: Thurs, Jul 06, 2000 at 12:04:42 (GMT)
From: Katie
Email: None
To: Helen
Subject: off topic of the thread--trying to catch up
Message:
Hi Helen -
Elan Vital has written a new FAQ on the elanvital.org website, and it's...well, let me just say that puking is not an inappropriate reaction. Joe requotes a post of mine that quotes their FAQ question and answer re Jagdeo (it's in Elan Vital's Lies re Molestation by Jagdeo - top of the thread.) That is the most blatant lie in the whole FAQ, but some of the other ones...well, lemme say that you just have to read them some time when your stomach feels strong. You also might want to read Glen Whittaker's little piece on 'the History of the Organizations' in 'Perspectives' on the same site.

Take care - is your computer fixed?
Love,
Katie

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Date: Wed, Jul 05, 2000 at 19:00:23 (GMT)
From: VP
Email: None
To: Katie
Subject: Time to Clean Out the Barn?
Message:
Katie,
You brought up a good point. Maharaji is carefully placed at a distance from everything that the organization does-policy-wise, financially, etc. That way, he can always remain blameless. If the PAM are always to blame, it's amazing to me that they stick around (the ones that assume the blame for things, that is.) That's some heavy lack of self esteem.

Gerry,
Let the premies post. They might piss us off, but their posts reveal a lot about the mindset of cult members. Just my take.

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Date: Tues, Jul 04, 2000 at 18:39:19 (GMT)
From: Fairplay
Email: None
To: Gerry
Subject: Calling the kettle black?
Message:
Talk about abusive Jerry? What about stinking fish, etc etc.

Fair play?

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Date: Tues, Jul 04, 2000 at 18:44:40 (GMT)
From: gerry
Email: None
To: Fairplay
Subject: Another big brave anonymous poster
Message:
Yeah, stinking fish. What of it?
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Date: Tues, Jul 04, 2000 at 18:50:01 (GMT)
From: Fairplay
Email: None
To: gerry
Subject: Another big brave anonymous poster
Message:
It's just as much verbal abuse as what you are taking about and I'm not a premie. Takes one to know one I guess>

Just being fair,

Fairplay

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Date: Tues, Jul 04, 2000 at 19:06:59 (GMT)
From: gerry
Email: None
To: Runamok
Subject: Another big brave anonymous poster
Message:
I didn't say you are a premie, but I bet you really are one, now that you mention it.


It's just as much verbal abuse as what you are taking about and I'm not a premie. Takes one to know one I guess. Just being fair,

Fairplay

Since you recognized it so quickly, I guess you're one too, huh?

Like I said, this is OUR site for recovery from the fucking cult. We have a right to 'verbally abuse' Maharaji and his apologists (I suspect you are one) but they have NO right to abuse us. No, it's not fair and no it's not democratic. But who gives a shit. This is a site for people abuse by the cult. What part of that don't you understand?

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Date: Wed, Jul 05, 2000 at 07:58:37 (GMT)
From: Fairytale
Email: None
To: gerry
Subject: So brave anonymous poster, Gerry
Message:
What is your name? Are you nothing but a coward?
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Date: Wed, Jul 05, 2000 at 14:47:41 (GMT)
From: Gerry
Email: None
To: Fairytale
Subject: I've given out my full name and address several
Message:
times and if you missed it 'Fairytale' tough shit.

In case some other premie troll and not Bjorn with yet another fake name, may I ask just who are you?

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Date: Wed, Jul 05, 2000 at 14:51:37 (GMT)
From: Oh I get it
Email: Gerry
To: all
Subject: Fairytale is Mili
Message:
How 'bout it Mili, are the same Mili who tried to shut down the usenet site, ridiculed the abuse woman and threaten someone with bodily harm? Do I have the right person?
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Date: Wed, Jul 05, 2000 at 13:56:00 (GMT)
From: gerry
Email: None
To: Fairytale
Subject: Piss off, Bjorn you pervert (nt)
Message:
nt
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Date: Tues, Jul 04, 2000 at 18:23:18 (GMT)
From: Powerman
Email: None
To: Gerry
Subject: Time to Clean Out the Barn?
Message:
I agree with you about Elaine. I think she's dishonest about being a premie and supporting maharaji, and her posts are undermining. She oughta go.

Deputy Dog ain't so bad though. He mostly makes a fool of himself and maharaji, and I don't mind that.

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Date: Tues, Jul 04, 2000 at 15:53:11 (GMT)
From: Rob
Email: None
To: Gerry
Subject: What to do with the manure?
Message:
I have to agree with you Gerry. I mean, it can be fun, kind of like a bloodsport, prodding their stupid rhetoric and watching them squirm, but it gets old quick.

One suggestion, now EV has a 'Feedback' facility, why not just cut/paste all these stupid premie postings and send them off to EV where they belong, with suitable anotation (eg 'these are your ambassadors, embarrassing huh?'). Could 'cc' them to ELK Expressions too. Do you think they'd get sick of them eventually?

Plus I think the FA's should add in any identifying information that came with the original post - that way they could cross-reference them with their own blissful contributors, (or as Jim put it 'braying donkeys').

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Date: Tues, Jul 04, 2000 at 18:44:59 (GMT)
From: Tonette
Email: None
To: Rob
Subject: What a great idea!!!! (nt)
Message:
nt
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Date: Tues, Jul 04, 2000 at 16:06:40 (GMT)
From: Gerry
Email: None
To: Rob
Subject: Good Idea, Rob
Message:
I almost forgot Mili, who is one of the more obnoxious offenders, IMO. EV would know him, I'm sure.

And Jim knows who 'Deputy Dog' is, and I sure wish he'd out that weasel.

Yeah, I think I will start sending EV and ELK some of the choicer 'contributions' from these wankers.

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Date: Tues, Jul 04, 2000 at 17:37:08 (GMT)
From: hamzen
Email: None
To: Gerry
Subject: Think you've missed one key element though
Message:
The descriptions of the cult obnoxiousness and the lies and bollox, and fakeness and obnoxiousness of premies, could't agree more. What's worse than a party with premies in it, guarantee of party poopers BUT for all the premies on-line who are just starting to think for the first time in years the dialogue is crucial. When you don't trust your mind, when you have no confidence in your ability to rationalize, and with that premie 'ability' to go into zombie mode at the switch of a hat, dry facts and infornmation however compelling don't cut it like a live discussion that REALLY exposes the cult thinking fresh.

Personally I hope never to meet another mind numbed premie new-ager in the rest of my life, and like you both I wouldn't complain if there were none here, but their lack of self-embarrassment over their cult thinking sends the clearest message possible, to aspirants as well as premies.

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Date: Tues, Jul 04, 2000 at 11:37:08 (GMT)
From: Tim Matheson
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: Re Cults: My MASTER set me free
Message:
When my MASTER ordered HIS servants at Elan Vital to address the issue of Is This a Cult in the FAQ's, HE once again showed just how loving HE is. Secretly, Mr. Mind had always been telling me 'you're in a cult...your in a cult'. Now, HIS servants have briefly touched on the issue and I and all you other good premies out there have now been given the freedom to search the internet for information about cults from outside, dispassionate professionals.

I am quite sure the information I find will verify the brief disclaimer about cults provided in the EV FAQ's.

Thank you, thank you, thank you!

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Date: Tues, Jul 04, 2000 at 15:21:15 (GMT)
From: Simon Satsang
Email: foaming@themouth.con
To: Tim Matheson
Subject: Re Cults: My MASTER set me free
Message:
I am once again inspired by the wisdom of Elan Vital leaders who know how to dress it all up so nicely for us sincere premies who might have been doubting things.

I would like to join your Yahoo club but wonder if I'm worthy enough. You are all such high devotees and such great souls there. I am only allowed one hour of internet time per day by my nurse before they put the straight jacket back on. I'm hoping to get some voice reckognition software to overcome that little handicap.

Fortunately my medication is such that I've forgotten what happened in the seventies so I don't have to enter into the argument about why I joined the ashram, gave my life to Maharaji and subsiquently went crazy because of it. I am crazy for God, I tell the staff here. My psychiatrist asks me if I believe that Maharaji is God and I always give him the straight answer, 'Maharaji is a mirror' I tell him. Only the enlightened ones can see what is in the magic mirror.

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Date: Wed, Jul 05, 2000 at 00:01:22 (GMT)
From: Lotus Eater
Email: None
To: Simon Satsang
Subject: Re Cults: My MASTER set me free
Message:
Dear Simon Satsang,
My psychiatrist asks me if I think Maharaji is God or the Devil, I reply: when I look into the magic mirror I lay my head at his Lotus Feets and He is so Beautiful it doesn't matter anymore!
LE

PS He really is just a silly fat hamster who wears cheap socks and speaks with forked tongue.

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Date: Tues, Jul 04, 2000 at 03:01:10 (GMT)
From: Daneane
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: Higher Octave Music
Message:
Anybody know if this label has some premie stuff? I've come across a couple promos of these CDs and it's new age spacey stuff...the lastest one I've seen was by Chris Spheeris and had some song called 'the joy of this longing'. There was thanks to anonymous influences and the first song on it was called 'Magaya'. It was made in Malibu. The music was Indian influenced and cheesy ambient stuff.

http://www.higheroctave.com/catalog/catalog.asp?wci=ShowTitleDetail&PKTitleID=1100

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Date: Tues, Jul 04, 2000 at 09:31:07 (GMT)
From: The Critic
Email: None
To: Daneane
Subject: Higher Octave Music
Message:
Ask yourself ' Am I just a little paranoid?' . Do you have any idea how many cheesey New Age composers there are out there? Know who else lives in Malibu? Too much! I wonder , would anyone venture down there to record based on it's ambience? Earth To DEANNE . Come in!
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Date: Tues, Jul 04, 2000 at 16:29:42 (GMT)
From: Daneane
Email: None
To: The Critic
Subject: EV warned me 'bout u anonymous posters.(nt)
Message:
EV
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Date: Mon, Jul 03, 2000 at 21:46:40 (GMT)
From: Joe
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: Well, we sure got Maharaji's attention!!!!
Message:
Hi Everyone,

I just returned from the land of the Mennehune, the Garden Isle of Kauai, and I had a wonderful time, thank you.

Anyhow, I returned to find that the Rock of Gibraltar has cracked, thanks to heavy pressure on Maharaji and Elan Vital by ex-premies. Good job guys, and this is great news.

I read Elan Vital's answers to 'Frequently Asked Questions,' which are obvious attempts to deal with the damage caused by open discussion about Maharaji's cult, and I laughed so hard I nearly got a hernia, and at my age that isn't good.

The really curious thing about FAQs is that people often use them to pretend to actually be open and honest because you get to frame your own questions and then answer them yourself. Most people can do that pretty well, because almost any idiot can, but the problem is EV and Maharaji are so inept that they can't even phrase the questions right, and they still have to resort to blantant lying to answer them. It's always better to say nothing than to lie, which has been Maharaji's course fo far, so I guess he is REALLY paranoid. Prediction: this was a big mistake that will backfire. The only thing that might work for Maharaji is open discussion with the former premies who have massive greviences with their former master. That's the only way Maharaji can salavage his mission in the West because these people are not going away; the numbers are growing and the noise is getting louder. But somehow I think his massive ego will never allow hm to do that.

Nonetheless, the crack in the wall is defintely there manifesting in a number of ways, including:

First, Elan Vital acknowledges that a bunch of his former followers say Maharaji used to claim to be god and Elan Vital has to lie to address it, and such lies can be easily disproven by the multiple quotes of Maharaji making just such claims.

Ignoring the actual statements, EV is forced to resort to its own little form of racism against East Indians. You see, in India, accordingly to Elan Vital, 'Lord' 'Lord of the Universe' 'greater than god', 'superior power in person', 'all powerful' 'all knowing,' 'the maker of all things created', 'Perfect Master,' etc., etc., all of which Maharaji called himself, and allowed us to call him without comment for a period of at least 15 years in the West, at least until he was 25 (and NOT 13), mean something else. You see, it's only in the 'western tradition' that people think those attributes make you divine. Hmnmmm. I guess in India people wink at each other when their 'masters' make such statements and nobody really believes them. Good argument, Elan Vital -- makes lots of sense.

Second, Elan Vital implies that Maharaji didn't know what the hell he was doing when he came to the West, but later realized he was wrong, very wrong, and, about 10 years later, started to fix things by changing a bunch of terms. Unfortunately, I think it's strange that Elan Vital makes these statements on belhalf of Prem Pal Singh Rawat, but apparently Prem Pal/Maharaji himself is too chickenshit or inept to make them himself. Clearly, one of the major criticisms continuously made against Maharaji is his failure to accept resonsbility for his actions and his big, big errors, and that people got hurt by getting involved with a 'guru' before he knew what the hell he was doing, I guess during his 'learning phase.'

Finally, I was amazed that the ashrams were set up in the West(but were 'soon abandoned' (after a brief 12-year period)) to save us all from 'drug culture.' Boy, was I ever stupid. I didn't realize I would have become a heroin addict were it not for spending 9 years in the ashram, poor and celibate. I also didn't know that sex was a major cause of drug addiction. I mean, we wouldn't have had to be celibate in Maharaji's ashrams except to protect us from drugs, according to Elan Vital's pristine logic. Makes perfect sense to me!

Funny, how I NEVER in all the 9 years I lived in Maharaji's ashrams, ever heard Maharaji or anyone else ever mention anything other than that the purpose of the ashram was to help you devote your entire life to Maharaji, which Maharaji said, repeatedly, over and over and over, during the 'taking stock period,' was the purpose of one's life. Of course, I guess he stopped saying that after what Whittaker calls the 'taking stock' period, ending in 1982, so that's okay. Boy, I feel much better that Elan Vital cleared that up once and for all.

I also think it's really self-defeating of EV to quote Maharaji, himself, saying things like:

Even so, people were saying it was necessary to be a vegetarian and so on. But no one could give reasons why.

It's self defeating, given the many quotes, like Jim quoted below, in which Maharaji himself gave lots of supposed 'reasons' why one had to be a vegetarian, including his ludicrous 'sucking animals' and 'dead seeds' quotes. If I was doing PR for Elan Vital, the first thing I would say would be to NEVER put anything in writing that can easily proven wrong, especially if it is Maharaji himself who is doing the lying. It does terrible things to your credibility if you do-- Both to Elan Vital's and Maharaji's.

[By the way, I read a great book over vacation that I HIGHLY recommend, especially for all you readers of things evolution. It's called Guns, Germs, and Steel by Jared Diamond. He combines evolution, anthropology, and human history, explaining why different cultures evolved the way they did and supplying a rock-solid alternative to the racist answer. A great book.]

I also saw Mission Impossible - 2 and it sucked even more than I feared it might.

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Date: Tues, Jul 04, 2000 at 19:51:37 (GMT)
From: Powerman
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: OT - Ralph Nader
Message:
Hi Joe,
What do you think of Ralph Nader? I planned on voting for Gore just to keep Bush out because he's such an asshole, but then I saw Nader in a couple of interviews and was so impressed I decided to just vote for him even if his chances are slim.
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Date: Wed, Jul 05, 2000 at 23:17:18 (GMT)
From: Joe
Email: None
To: Powerman
Subject: OT - Ralph Nader
Message:
I'm not sure about Nader. I voted for him in 1996 because I could no longer stomach Clinton, but Nader wasn't a serious candidate that year. He had some pledge that he would spend only $5000 and he had at least six different vice-presidents. He also refused to endorse the Green Party platform and called it's plank of endorsing gay marriage as 'gonadal politics.'

This time he seems more serious and has the nomination of the Green Party. The latest poll showed him with 5% of the vote in California, which the demos fear might cost Gore the state. But I probably will vote for him anyway.

It is a little daunting that Nader had to release financials and we find that he is worth over $4 million with substantial holdings in the stock of Cisco Systems. Kind of mitigates against his anti-corporate image.

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Date: Thurs, Jul 06, 2000 at 00:23:20 (GMT)
From: Powerman
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: OT - Ralph Nader
Message:
Thanks Joe. I heard Nader reply on Crossfire to that criticism of his ownership of Cisco stock. He wasn't defensive about it and seemed willing to divest if it was clear it was wrong. He mentioned Cisco having some good corporate policies towards employees and said 'money means nothing to me'. He also said most of his income goes towards consumer projects.

It was curious he wasn't questioned on controversial issues like abortion, gay rights, school prayer or drug policy. He's fighting to be included in the national debates and at the very least that would probably cost Gore the election. Maybe America deserves Bush.

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Date: Thurs, Jul 06, 2000 at 18:48:37 (GMT)
From: VP
Email: None
To: Joe and Pman
Subject: OT - Ralph Nader
Message:
I own Cisco stock and as far as I can tell, Nadar is right about them. I'm not sure Nadar is anti-corporate--I'd call his stance pro-consumer.

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Date: Thurs, Jul 06, 2000 at 12:08:54 (GMT)
From: Katie
Email: None
To: Powerman
Subject: I don't want to vote for Gore, but...
Message:
...I am going to, because I cannot stand George W. and his policies. I really hope you guys WON'T vote for Ralph Nader - yes, I know you're making a statement, but it's going to end up being a pro-Bush statement.

Brian says Bush is going to win - I say that a lot of women won't vote for him because of his stance on gun control (not to mention abortion). I hope I'm right.

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Date: Thurs, Jul 06, 2000 at 15:50:25 (GMT)
From: Powerman
Email: None
To: Katie
Subject: I don't want to vote for Gore, but...
Message:
Nader made some brilliant points on Crossfire. He explained how Roe v Wade won't be overturned, regardless of who wins the presidential election and that Social Security won't be cut either.

The point for me is that the Democratic party has blended so far into the Republican party that I can no long support them with a clear conscience.

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Date: Thurs, Jul 06, 2000 at 17:20:40 (GMT)
From: Joe
Email: None
To: Powerman
Subject: I don't want to vote for Gore, but...
Message:
In 1996, Clinton was so far ahead in the state where I live (California) that there was no danger my vote for Nader would make any difference. Gore is ahead of Bush by 10 points in California according to the latest polls, so I think I can vote for Nader without helping Bush. If it gets really close, I will re-evaluate that.

To me, the danger of Bush is who he would appoint to the Supreme Court. I disagree that Roe v. Wade won't be overturned. Rehnquist, Stevens and O'Connor will probably resign within the next four years, and 3 new justices could really swing the balance on a number of important issues. Just look at how many decisions were 5-4 in the last term, including some on abortion and gay rights.

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Date: Thurs, Jul 06, 2000 at 00:58:00 (GMT)
From: gerry
Email: None
To: Powerman and JW
Subject: What choice, eh fellas...
Message:
Bush/Gore yech.

I'm gonna check out Harry Browne, myself. Not that he has a snowball chance either.

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Date: Thurs, Jul 06, 2000 at 00:43:21 (GMT)
From: Joe
Email: None
To: Powerman
Subject: NOBODY deserves Bush, not even TEXAS (nt)
Message:
nt
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Date: Wed, Jul 05, 2000 at 23:47:00 (GMT)
From: Daneane
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: OT - Ralph Nader
Message:
'Mr. Nader is not without potential
vulnerabilities. Eyebrows were raised
recently when the financial disclosure
statements of Mr. Nader, America's most
famous corporation-basher, revealed that
he was worth nearly $4 million, in large
part because of some savvy stock
investments in high-technology
companies.

Mr. Nader scoffed at the notion that
there was anything untoward about
reaping such gains. He said that he
lived on about $25,000 a year, giving
away 80 percent of his after-tax income,
and that any of his gains represented a
'de facto philanthropic fund' for his
favorite causes. '

http://www.nytimes.com/library/politics/camp/070100wh-nader.html

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Date: Tues, Jul 04, 2000 at 13:51:43 (GMT)
From: Jerry
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: You read that whole book?
Message:
I got about half way through it. It was interesting, and deep, but the facts and figures got too dense after awhile. I don't think it proves that environment is THE determining factor why some cultures remained in the stone age while others advanced, but it sure is a convincing argument. His other book, The Third Chimpanzee, has more to do with evolution than Guns, Germs, and Steel, which is more anthropological.

I have to agree with Jim. MI2 was a fun movie, despite the fact that Tom Cruise was in it (blah!). But if you want to see an even more fun action film, check out Shaft. The cat is a bad motherf.... I also heard form my sister that Perfect Storm is excellent. It's based on a true story about fisherman lost at sea. Did you know that more fisherman, per capita, die on the job than firemen or police? Yes, neither did I. And BTW, Maharaji sucks.

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Date: Tues, Jul 04, 2000 at 17:53:55 (GMT)
From: Joe
Email: None
To: Jerry
Subject: Yeah...
Message:
I actually had trouble putting the book down. And I really liked that he put in lots of facts -- like that Monarch Butterflies are poisonous, why you can't domesticate Zebras (they bite and kill people), and the critical importance of latrines for the domestication of plants.

Also, I was reading the book at the same time I was hiking around these remote valleys in Kauai with ancient stone terraces and platforms everywhere built by the Mennehune, the ancient people of Hawaii. It really made me think about what the Ploynesians had in Hawaii and what they didn't have, and how utilized what they have.

I don't think Diamond thinks environment is the only factor and he admits that cultural differences were also important. What he convincingly shows is that there isn't any support for arguments that there are innate differences among the peoples of the world and that these are the reasonswhy some cultures 'advanced' and some didn't and there are other very logical reasons. This has either been the stated or implied reasoning for hundreds of years -- mostly because history has been written by the people who did the conquering and exploiting.

I was especially impressed with the role of disease. That's something that isn't discussed in American History either -- that the native population was pretty much wiped out by diseases the Europeans brought by the time the colonists arrived, leaving an advanced agricultural land for the colonists. American History books make it sound like the colonists had to clear the land and fight the Indians. That just wasn't true and Diamond shows how that same scenario happened all over the world.

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Date: Wed, Jul 05, 2000 at 02:43:15 (GMT)
From: Jerry
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: Yeah...
Message:
Yeah, Joe, the book really was interesting, and very informative for the curious mind. I actually had a hard time putting it down too. I recommend it as highly as you do. It's just that I read so many different books at a time, that when I finally did put it down, I never got around to it again. But the half that I did read, I read in mostly one sitting, that's how intriguing I found it. And I'm not a fast reader, so I put a lot of hours into it. I think I spent one whole day on it, for about a 7 or 8 hour stretch, in fact. It just draws you in, it's that kind of a read. But I did find the amount of data it presented to be daunting, even though it didn't detract from the enjoyment of the book, overall. I'm sure I'll get back to it again someday to finish it.
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Date: Tues, Jul 04, 2000 at 01:33:41 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: Come on, Joe!
Message:
Glad you're back. You're right about everything. I'll read the book ... but Joe, MI2 was fun. Maybe not San Francisco fun, maybe it was just L.A. fun but it was fun.
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Date: Tues, Jul 04, 2000 at 09:19:26 (GMT)
From: Dame Edna
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Come on, Joe!
Message:
Maybe not San Franciscan fun you say? Who would imagine a San Franciscan reviewer would say 'sucked more than I feared'!
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Date: Tues, Jul 04, 2000 at 18:08:08 (GMT)
From: Joe
Email: None
To: Dame Edna
Subject: Come on, Joe!
Message:
What I meant by 'sucked more than I feared' was that I kind of thought it would suck, but it was even worse than I thought. See, on Kauai, they only have one movie theater and you are sort of stuck with whatever is playing. Personally, I would have preferred to see South Pacific with Mitzi Gaynor and Rossano Brazzi. It would have made it 'Some Enchanted Evening.'
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Date: Thurs, Jul 06, 2000 at 02:05:22 (GMT)
From: Dame Edna
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: Come on, Joe!
Message:
Of course Darling!
For a show that wont disappoint, see Dame Edna's Royal Tour.
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Date: Tues, Jul 04, 2000 at 03:43:01 (GMT)
From: Joe
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: It was Sydney fun....I guess....(OT)
Message:
But I can't get past that the story line was REEEAAALLLY STOOOPID. And isn't there some kind of rule about how many times you can use the 'false face' ruse in the same movie? I mean, they used it about 19 times in the movie and it became a tad predictable after about the 10th time.

But it was kind of fun to see what kind of international menace those brilliant writers had to come up with now that the Cold War is over. Wonder how they thought of the CEO of an Australian chemical company? Really, though, I fell asleep during the movie, but did wake up in time to see the neato motorcycle stunts, and how fast the slash on Tom Cruise's face could heal -- literally in minutes. Awful make-up in that movie, though. Tom wore too much lipstick.

And I have a question. Was the sadistic blonde assistant of the bad guy -- the one who stayed loyal to his boss despite the fact that fact that his boss sliced off the end of his finger with a cigar knife, for no apparent reason, -- supposed to have been his homosexual S&M lover (obviously on the 'M' side)? I mean, he was awful jealous of his girlfriend. I couldn't figure that one out either.

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Date: Tues, Jul 04, 2000 at 04:43:41 (GMT)
From: TD
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: Sydney looked better than Tom's scar-Face off!
Message:
...actually that's what a lot of the critics here said. Movie's shite, but Sydney looked flash! Actually the Matrix probably did Sydney a better turn than this...

I think blonde Sarf Afrikaan guy wasn't necessarily his S&M pal - just one of those typical B-grade sidekicks who don't trust anybody at all around their boss. A bit like Oddjob in James Bond.

You're right about the ole face off trick. John Woo did a good job of this in Face/Off - so why do it again so badly in this film.

I don't know either why the plot was based around the ole 'unleash a virus on the world' crap story that's been done to death. They could have done a much better one based on Pine Gap, that oh-so-secretive US military installation in the middle of Oz, that not even some of our top politicians have even been able to get access to. And it's very photogenic too. Big fat round golfballs on red earth doing oh so nasty spy stuff. Tom should have called me ...

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Date: Tues, Jul 04, 2000 at 18:00:16 (GMT)
From: Joe
Email: None
To: TD
Subject: Sydney looked better than Tom's scar-Face off!
Message:
Right, Sydney looked beautiful in the film. Regarding the side-kick -- why did he stick around when his Scottish boss cut off his finger? Was it just for the money?

I read a story about Pine Gap. Can't the Aussies organize and force their 'democratic' government to tell the US to get the hell out of OZ? I imagine the US would say it has to do with NASA, but I think that's suspect.

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Date: Tues, Jul 04, 2000 at 22:33:51 (GMT)
From: TD
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: Sydney looked better than Tom's scar-Face off!
Message:
It must have been for the money - but he was an extra tough guy so maybe losing the tip of his finger just felt like a scratch!

Australia's too chickenshit to risk not being a strong ally of the US in all things military - hence Pine Gap and going along to every bloody war that either the Poms or the Yanks have been involved in. Not like New Zealand who told the US to take their nuclear warships and stick 'em up their radiation ringpiece. There's something very fishy about Pine Gap. It is very controversial, and if you believe one of our investigative journalists, a guy called John Pilger, then the only dismissal of an Australian prime-minister ever, in the 70's, had something to do with the CIA getting a tad tetchy that the PM was looking to terminate the lease on Pine Gap, hence getting behind the corrupt Governor-General who had the powers to kick out a PM. A big deal here. A bit like the President of the US getting the sack by just one person. He's become a bit of a living martyr since that day.

Actually I went on a dive boat-trip to the Barrier Reef a couple of years back and there was a Yank there who was working at Pine Gap, and we were grilling him on what he was doing and he jokingly said the ole 'I could tell you, but I'd have to kill you' routine. A nice guy, but would not say one word to us about Pine Gap.

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Date: Tues, Jul 04, 2000 at 02:30:31 (GMT)
From: TD
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: MI-2 action was good, but story was crap!
Message:
Like why did they go out and appear suddenly on a remote sheep farm in Central Oz, with all their spying equipment, only to find out that reception was shite. Why set up there in the first place if the reception is shite? And what about the sheep? Why were they there?
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Date: Tues, Jul 04, 2000 at 01:09:09 (GMT)
From: Sir David
Email: sirdavid12@hotmail.com
To: Joe
Subject: Will Glen Whittaker remember this?
Message:

THE WEST GREETS THE LORD

This was the headline, penned by Mr Whittaker, on the front page of the first issue of the Divine Times. I don't like pointing fingers and I did used to have a great deal of respect for 'Mr Glen' but I'd say he either is suffering from amnesia or is a blatant hypocrite and liar.

It was Glen Whittaker who used to give the heavy satsang about how we should all stop wasting our time and serve the living God in human form and move into his ashrams. It was Glen Whittaker who used to hold people spellbound with tales of Maharaji's divinity and how he really was the Big One come to Earth to save it from destruction.

Maharaji is an arrogant and dangerous fool and he is quite unable to see the damage he has done. On the other hand, people like Glen Whittaker, who was one of the main engineers of the old Divine Light Mission and now Elan Vital, such people are beyond the pale if they come out with this crock of bullshit which is written in the Elan Vital FAQ. Who the hell do they think they are fooling? They know it's bullshit because they lived through it all, the same as we did. Or are they so brainwashed that they now believe this crap?

I wonder. One or two people I've met who are high up in the Elan Vital echelons of power, really believe that it's because most of the seventies and eighties premies were not sincere, that they left Maharaji and knowledge. I found this view to be quite chilling. Because these very same people who used to sing arti with me in the very same ashram and who used to do pranam before the very same altar, now they are saying that people like myself were not sincere.

How far does the rubber band have to stretch before it finally snaps? How far can Maharaji and Elan Vital stretch the truth before it breaks? That was a good post Joe and one which I will put on my site.

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Date: Tues, Jul 04, 2000 at 23:47:10 (GMT)
From: lotus eater
Email: None
To: Sir David
Subject: Glen Whittaker
Message:
Sir David,
It seems to me that the path of 'service' has junctures; by now you are fairly addicted to it and the point comes when you swallow something that goes against the grain of common sense and decency, you justify it by thinking that you are fighting your mind, in some part of your psyche it is unthinkable that Maharaji is less than divine. Each time you swallow instead of spit, you damage you instinctual understanding of what's right and wrong. The rumours I have heard about Glen are that he is a bit of a satyr!LE
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Date: Thurs, Jul 06, 2000 at 06:26:04 (GMT)
From: Know it All
Email: None
To: lotus eater
Subject: Glen Whittaker
Message:
Dar Lotus Eater,

I did meet a lady at a programme once that said she didn't want to be just another notch in Glen's bedpost. Glen's excuse is that he's a Scorpio you know!

He just needs to settle down and get married - if anyone would have him!

Know it All

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Date: Wed, Jul 05, 2000 at 03:29:54 (GMT)
From: Fairplay
Email: None
To: lotus eater
Subject: Glen Whittaker
Message:
Dear Lotus,

What's a satyr?

Fairplay

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Date: Wed, Jul 05, 2000 at 03:57:48 (GMT)
From: Monmot
Email: None
To: Fairplay
Subject: Definitely Not A Butterfly
Message:
Handy dandy www.dictionary.com has this to say about Glen's condition/reputation:

sa·tyr (str, str) n.

1.Often Satyr. Greek Mythology. A woodland creature depicted as having the pointed ears, legs, and short horns of a goat and a fondness for unrestrained revelry.

2.A licentious man; a lecher.

3.A man who is affected by satyriasis.

4.Any of various butterflies of the family Satyridae, having brown wings marked with eyelike spots.

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Date: Tues, Jul 04, 2000 at 06:44:03 (GMT)
From: Sir David
Email: None
To: All
Subject: Post script - We are the real premies
Message:
Often the ex-premies are seen as Judases by the faithful. But the real Judases are those who deny that Maharaji was the Lord.

Think about it. We as ex-premies do not deny that Maharaji was the Lord for us. As we proclaimed it then, we still proclaim it now. We have not turned away from the Lord of the Universe. We are still faithful to Him. It is a little Indian con-man who we have turned against.

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Date: Mon, Jul 03, 2000 at 23:58:52 (GMT)
From: Joey
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: Great post...vintage JW...glad you're back ! nt
Message:
nt
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Date: Mon, Jul 03, 2000 at 22:35:09 (GMT)
From: Elaine
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: Welcome back
Message:
Joe,
Noticed you were absent.

RE: book,
What do you mean by ' supplying a rock solid alternative to the racist answer' - want to know more.
And has he written other books?
And is it a new release?

Thanks,
Elaine

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Date: Tues, Jul 04, 2000 at 18:19:59 (GMT)
From: Joe
Email: None
To: Elaine
Subject: Welcome back
Message:
Thanks, Elaine.

Check out my post to Jerry above regarding disproving the 'racist' answer. Basically, for hundreds of years the stated or implied theory has been that some cultures advanced and some didn't because the people of the 'advanced' cultures were smarter, more industrious, or had other innate factors (based on race) that made them superior. Diamond convincingly disproves that by providing lots of other reasons why cultures progressed the way they did and why Europeans were able to so easily dominate various parts of the world.

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Date: Mon, Jul 03, 2000 at 19:39:37 (GMT)
From: Roger eDrek
Email: drek@oz.net
To: Everyone
Subject: Not sure if my battles are over yet
Message:
I've been told by my ISP that they had been contacted by some of Maharaji's lawyers based in London. Don't know what to make of that yet.

I'm seeing that Roger's House of Maharaji Drek is being visited by someone with excellent Internet skills or someone who works at the Defense Mapping Agency:

[* further content edited by Forum Admin *

We request that individual's identities and contact details are not posted on the forum without their consent. Thanks.]

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Date: Tues, Jul 04, 2000 at 20:49:07 (GMT)
From: Tonette
Email: None
To: Roger eDrek
Subject: Please don't close your website
Message:
Good luck. He's(m) got some high power lawyers but you site is music to my ears. Pun intended. Lots of great and true information on your site. Why should they go after a small fry like you unless you pose a threat? Good luck. My email is listed in the white pages if you need help. Wish I was a lawyer.
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Date: Tues, Jul 04, 2000 at 18:21:12 (GMT)
From: Tonette
Email: None
To: Roger eDrek
Subject: Defense Mapping?Right down the street
Message:
I know for a fact there is premie that works there and has worked there for years.Name's Phillip Pradier.
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Date: Tues, Jul 04, 2000 at 21:26:10 (GMT)
From: JtF
Email: None
To: Tonette
Subject: No, No, Tonette
Message:
Phil has not been an active premie for many, many years. Careful, calling someone a premie is a very nasty name, not to mention the implication he might be breaking into someone's computer.
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Date: Tues, Jul 04, 2000 at 18:26:12 (GMT)
From: Katie
Email: None
To: Tonette
Subject: Defense Mapping?Right down the street
Message:
Hi Tonette -
I'm from the DC area too - I have/had a couple of friends that worked there (not premies, though - other soil scientists). Roger - it's not a very sinister place. Well, at least if you are from DC where your next-door neighbors often work for the CIA (mine did).
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Date: Tues, Jul 04, 2000 at 13:29:01 (GMT)
From: Jean-Michel
Email: None
To: Roger eDrek
Subject: Just a guess
Message:
Some of the materials reproduced on the exes sites may be copyrighted by EV UK, which is legally a different organization, even though it's been working as a subsidiary of EV US.

I don't doubt the Brits are less stupid than the US (lawyers:-)))) and will advise EV's representatives differently. Let's see what happens.

I can imagine a meeting with EV's lawyers (US, French and Brits), EV's PRs, EV's representatives, some security guys to watch the doors and Mr Rawat's private advisor!!

All of them advising Mr Rawat to shut up and close all his websites.

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Date: Wed, Jul 05, 2000 at 16:43:06 (GMT)
From: Roger eDrek
Email: drek@oz.net
To: Jean-Michel
Subject: That's my guess, too. (nt)
Message:
lk;j
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Date: Mon, Jul 03, 2000 at 23:28:21 (GMT)
From: Ben Lurking
Email: None
To: Roger eDrek
Subject: Not sure if my battles are over yet
Message:
Maybe they ar elooking for the satellite pictures of M's house you used to have - he could be having a part and we are the only ones not invited. :=)
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Date: Tues, Jul 04, 2000 at 02:28:36 (GMT)
From: Roger eDrek
Email: drek@oz.net
To: Ben Lurking
Subject: The satellite photo of his house in Malibu?
Message:
Hmmm, maybe you are onto something there, Ben. Maybe Big M is trying to be the good citizen and turn me in.

I know that for the upgrade higher rez image you have to pay money. Therefore, I opted for hopefully a free image and I do attribute the owner of the image the copyright ala:

Image is © Copyright 1996 AERIAL IMAGES, INC. All Rights Reserved

And I did this inspite of the fact that the image was probably taken by a Soviet satellite.

You can see the image at Satellite Imagery of Malibu Residence.

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Date: Mon, Jul 03, 2000 at 22:07:03 (GMT)
From: Ben Lurking
Email: None
To: Roger eDrek
Subject: Not sure if my battles are over yet
Message:
Contact the coordinater and ask him what intrest the army has in your site. It may be a goverment employee just poking around on their own. It would be interesting if it was a Volunteer of EV using US goverment time to access your site.
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Date: Mon, Jul 03, 2000 at 22:19:54 (GMT)
From: SB
Email: None
To: Ben Lurking
Subject: Not sure if my battles are over yet
Message:
Maybe Yahoo informed the authorities because they visited all exes sites when contacted by some of us inviting them to do so and what they read was outrageous enough for them to blow the wisthle on the CULT...Interesting POSSIBILITIES.
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Date: Mon, Jul 03, 2000 at 19:23:12 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: My 'feedback' about vegetarianism
Message:
Hi again,

As I go through your FAQs I'll probably be moved to comment further. Hope you don't mind.

Discussing the evolution of EV, you quote Maharaji on vegetarianism:

When Knowledge started to spread around the world, it was obvious that it had to cross cultural barriers and not bring a little bit of India along with it. It was important to look at people, not what they believed in, or what their religion was. Even so, people were saying it was necessary to be a vegetarian and so on. But no one could give reasons why.

(emphasis added).

Funny, I seem to recall Maharaji himself giving 'reasons why'. Ever read any of the following?:

'People will watch television and they see those cowboy movies, and cowboys used to take raw meat and eat that, and they get like that. They got like animals and they used to kill anyone around. How you eat, so you become. See, the way you eat, the way you become. And that's why I want there should be much less food, because that makes you more active. If you just think about eating, eating, eating, you will get lazy like an animal. Eat less, it will make you more active.

But just don't stop eating. Lord Buddha, when He was trying to serve this Knowledge, when He was trying to serve this Truth, went in the jungle, sat there and He tried to meditate and He gave up food and everything. And what happened was, His body got really thin.

And Indra, who is supposed to be the master, who is supposed to be the god of all gods - small gods - He sent some people so as to distract Him from Meditation. But what Buddha hears from the songs they are playing was that you must meditate, and you must eat enough to survive, because you're not going to get anywhere like that.

It's not going to help you because if you are dead, you are not going to be able to meditate anymore. So eat to be alive O.K. ? This is a statement that scientists have been making, and other people have been making that 'Eat to live, but don't live to eat.' You understand ? Eat to live - eat enough so you can survive, but don't survive just to eat.'

(July, 1972 - Denver)

'Q: Maharaj Ji, does it make a difference if a person eats meat or not ? Does it affect their Meditation.

Guru Maharaj Ji: I know one thing - 'what you eat, so you become'. I say from experience. I'll tell you one thing, since it's not meant for human beings to eat meat and there's a very logical explanation - may be you even know it.

You know, it's like people or the beings that are supposed to eat meat, like cats, lions or animals like that, they always lick water. They don't, they don't suck water. They always lick it. They take their tongue out like that. You have seen how a cat drinks water and how a dog drinks it.

But beings that suck water don't eat meat. And that's the way it's supposed to be. And man sucks water - does not lick water, since he is not supposed to eat meat. And God has provided him and made him the king of all nature - not to kill other beings, but to...

He has given all the fruits in the world, anything he wants, a big head up here ….. so he has just to utilize everything. And try to understand the beauty and to grasp the beauty of the fruits God has given us.

Because I'll tell you, it's really healthy too. Body can just really accept it. And that's the way it is. Yes ?

Q: Why wouldn't you say that when you pick a plant killing the plant too ? I mean............

Guru Maharaj Ji: Well, because that's, that's the thing; that little killing is meant to be for you. And that's O.K.

Q: A plant still has consciousness.

Guru Maharaj Ji: A plant has consciousness, but where is the consciousness?

Q: I don't know.

Guru Maharaj Ji: See, this is the thing. Where is the consciousness?

Someone: The root.

Guru Maharaj Ji: The root is the consciousness, but where does the consciousness actually lie ? Because root, if you take root itself, it's in a seed. You see, there is a little explanation to that. If you are eating meat, you are eating out of a being, right ? Like supposedly, some people eat cow, right? Cow comes from life, a mother. Right ? And that also come from a life, and it's a life to a life to a life circle. But a plant does not come from a life. It comes from dead, from a seed which is dead. It doesn't need any nutrition. It's a dead seed. When you plant it, and that's when it becomes (alive), for it to grow, and to give you fruits.

Q: What if you eat an animal that comes from a seed? I mean, an animal.........

Guru Maharaj Ji: well, I wouldn't object to.........

Q: You could call an egg a seed. A chicken comes from an egg; an egg is a seed. Isn't it? Is an egg alive? The one you buy in a store?

Guru Maharaj Ji: No. The egg is killed already. Then... see, it's like, it's not like a seed. Still it isn't like a seed. Because seed is inert, dead. If you put an egg, it'll rot. Because it has a life, and it has a period of life.

You see, everything has come from man's own conception. Because somebody… If I put a man into a cell, the day he is born from, he will never know whether a plant has a consciousness or not. It's man's own conception of it. And so far it all seems again into a conception, into a conception, multiplied by it. It all seems that these fruits are given to a human being to eat them. A man would not be able to live on meat alone. He'll have to still come to nature and ask for its fruits. But a man can live on fruits.'

(January 21,1974 - Phoenix, Arizona)

'So that's it. No more reason to be confused. Just forget about it, you know. Say: 'I'm not going to eat eggs, so I'm not going to eat eggs. Forget it. I'm going to eat what He tells.' You wouldn't be confused about it. It's like, if you really get into explanations, man, you can go night and day long, and start giving explanations about vegetables, and about eggs, and about meat, and still come to no point.

So I just think that, really if you have to go one way, you know, make determination and go ! Really do it. Because, it's like God has given us fruits, you know, now why did He give us fruits ? He gave us fruits to eat, and He gave us all those things to eat. But if you only want to get into a discussion, you can also say, 'Well, means, plants have lives in them, and when we eat them, you know, that's really bad.'

Well, You know, if you cut your arm, you are not supposed to cut your arm. But if you cut your nail, it's just fine. That's the difference. Because the nails grow to be cut, not the hands. They don't grow to be cut. That's the little difference.

The plants grow for us to be eaten, to be cut by us. And all the other things are just like there, and have their own life.'

(January, 1974 - Los Angeles)

'Q: Maharaj Ji, Some people say, it is not good to eat meat. Why ?

Ans: If you eat meat you will find you get more angry and impatient, and that is harmful to you. I have heard there was a time when saints told people to eat meat, but at that time there was no other food. Today we have got plenty of food, so there is no need to kill animals.

How many animals are being killed, because we eat them ? Very many. If the animals have died in a natural way, then it would be OK, may be, but then animal doctors won't allow you to eat them.'

(Published in 'The Sayings of Guru Maharaj Ji' - Part IV - Divine United Organization, Shri Sant Yogashram, Hans Marg, Mehrauli, New Delhi - 110030 - Phone: 666852)

Is this a joke or something? Is Maharaji a comedian? Or is he purposely avoiding the truth?

I look forward to your early replies. I also expect that you'll publish some, if not all, of my posts in your 'Perspectives' section. That's what it's for, isn't it?

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Date: Mon, Jul 03, 2000 at 22:46:27 (GMT)
From: Elaine
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: My 'feedback' about vegetarianism
Message:
How does a cow drink water?
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Date: Tues, Jul 04, 2000 at 01:23:58 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Elaine
Subject: My 'feedback' about vegetarianism
Message:
Why do you ask?
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Date: Tues, Jul 04, 2000 at 18:42:37 (GMT)
From: cq
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Is Elaine spouting the Maha's old story
Message:
Is Elaine spouting the Maha's infamous old story about how animals that are carnivorous use their tongues to LAP their drink? And how vegetarians (like the cow - no, I don't mean you Elaine) SUCK?

Which is all well and good, and a fanatical veggy (as in 'tarian') might go so far as to claim that, since we HUMANS suck/slurp/apply vacuum/do anything but LAP our drinks (in polite company at least) - then Glory be! we must have been intended by Nature to be veggies.

Quite why Nature gave us carnivores (as in teeth), Elaine and the Maha are unlikely to touch on ...

Fact is, we (the human race) are OMNIVORES. And that is how nature has made us.

(some might argue that we're natural cannibals too. Grok that!)

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Date: Tues, Jul 04, 2000 at 20:41:11 (GMT)
From: Elaine
Email: None
To: cq
Subject: No,cq,she's not----
Message:
If cats slurp their water and are meat eaters - well, don't cows slurp their water - they are major vegetarians.

But, you all like to think I'm a Maha clone - so keep it up if you want.

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Date: Tues, Jul 04, 2000 at 01:57:59 (GMT)
From: SB
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: LOL (nt)
Message:
LOL
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Date: Tues, Jul 04, 2000 at 20:55:40 (GMT)
From: Tonette
Email: None
To: everyone
Subject: what ignorance!
Message:
Vegetarianism! HIS explanation? A boy without a high school diploma talking about zoology? PLEEEEASE! And the most funny thing about it is-WE ALL BELIEVED IT! Hardeharharhar!
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Date: Mon, Jul 03, 2000 at 18:19:31 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: My latest 'feedback' to EV
Message:
Okay, on your FAQ about criticism against Maharaji and EV, you write:

Yes. We are aware that criticisms, including unsubstantiated rumors and allegations have appeared on the web, most often placed by anonymous posters. Whereas some people might be initially disturbed by these, we believe in and endorse everyone’s right to free speech within the boundaries of decency and fairness. We have been advised by counsel that some of the posted materials infringe on copyrights belonging to us. We also believe that people can and should make up their own minds in all matters pertaining to their personal lives. Obviously we do not enjoy being on the receiving end of ungrounded criticism. At the same time we welcome criticism that can help us do what we do in a better way.

to which I have something to say:

First, many of the ex-premie posters are NOT anonymous. I, for one, have been posting under my own name, Jim Heller, for years now. In fact, I've contacted your offices repeatledly looking for some form of substantive communication with Maharaji or even some subordinate -- oh sorry, subordinate VOLUNTEER -- able and willing to speak for him. I talked a number of times to Linda Gross, once to David Smith (or was that a robot? I'd say 'replicant' but I think it may have been an older model), David Coyne from Thousand Oaks who, to his credit, took it upon himself to try to get Maharaji to talk with me. I also left a couple of phone messages for Maharaji directly not to mention sent him a registered letter a couple of years ago. Then, of course, there was the time I had a drink with his brother (no, not Satpal, silly! Raja Ji) who shared my exasperation at the difficulty in getting a straight answer, or ANY answer, in fact, from his younger brother.

At the same time as these entreaties have been made, I've contributed, as you know, on the ex-premie forum. I've questioned, speculated, joked about and thoroughly lambasted my former guru. You know, the guy who never claimed to be God. That one.

I also contributed to a group letter to Maharaji which we advertised in the Boston Phoenix and which you have probably already read at:

www.openlettertomaharaji.com

Indeed, I wouldn't be surprised if your FAQs aren't a tacit response to that letter. Far be it from you to openly say as much.

Anyway, forgive me for thinking that your organization does NOT respect free speech in the slightest. I'm sure you'll disavow any affiliation with the Enjoying Life with Knowledge website. I mean this is as delicate as money-laundering, isn't it? But I see a STRONG connection between the two and I can personally attest to the very anti-free speech quality of that site. No dissent is allowed. No DISCUSSION is allowed. Instead, premies are invited to bray like happy donkeys and that's about it. When I and a few others tested the waters there, posting a few fake testimonials replete with now-unfashionable (but still highly prevalent premie thinking) our words were changed wholesale. Without our knowledge or consent either. THIS, I assure you, doesn't look good.

But you say you respect 'free speech', huh? You also say that we exes trade in 'unsubstantiated rumours and allegations'. Fine! Let's sort them all out, shall we? Let's deal with these allegations and sort out the truth from the faleshood. Open your books to us, grant us a few OPEN audiences with your volunteer officials and maybe Maharaji himself. Let's talk! Maybe some of what we've heard and bandied about IS false. Fine. Let's find out. But maybe some of the rumours are true, right? Let's find that out too.
You can't properly complain that we don't substantiate things when your castle doors are as closed as they are.

For example, Mike Donner told me that Maharaji specifically ordered him to secrete Fakiranand out of the country after Fakiranand tried to kill the Pat Halley (sp?), the guy who threw the pie at Maharaji. Is that true? Maybe Donner's lying. What do I know? What's Maharaji's side of the story?

Or what IS the truth about Maharaji's lineage? Come on, we're big people now. It's not SUCH a technical question that we can't handle (in small doses, of course). Maharaji has said something himself about these matters on his web site. Some question his account. Let's talk, people!

Listen, you must know that this dissent is only getting louder. You must know that we're far too clever and persistent to allow a superficial whitewash to close out the issue. You must wonder what the hell your'e going to do next. Well I say that there's only one thing TO do. Quit hiding and come out and talk to us. Show some integrity, for God's sake. Be 'premies' again. Don't be afraid of the truth. Let's talk!

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Date: Tues, Jul 04, 2000 at 23:21:45 (GMT)
From: Fairplay
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Who wrote that stuff?
Message:
First of all I thought it ws Glen Whittaker and then I realized it was on U.S. Elan Vital. Do you know who wrote it?

Jim, please let me know where you got M's private number?

Thanks,

Fairplay

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Date: Wed, Jul 05, 2000 at 01:51:38 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Fairplay
Subject: Who are you?
Message:
Fairplay, it's not that I'm paranoid or anything but who the hell are you anyway? Come on, a little background fella. If you like you can email me:

heller@bc1.com

or call:

(250) 360-1040

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Date: Tues, Jul 04, 2000 at 18:15:43 (GMT)
From: ham
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Top one, espec'y truth/premies, nothing like
Message:
being a mirror!
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Date: Mon, Jul 03, 2000 at 23:17:08 (GMT)
From: TD
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Great letter Jim! (nt)
Message:
nt
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Date: Mon, Jul 03, 2000 at 22:18:26 (GMT)
From: Charlie
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: top stuff Jim
Message:
Keep applying the pressure, this bloated bladder must surely burst soon.
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Date: Mon, Jul 03, 2000 at 20:08:53 (GMT)
From: SB
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Excellent Jim!! (nt)
Message:
nt
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Date: Tues, Jul 04, 2000 at 02:10:43 (GMT)
From: gerry
Email: None
To: all
Subject: My tidbit to EV
Message:
Sent this e-mail yesterday:

Some people say Knowledge didn’t work for them. Why doesn’t it work for everyone?

As with any practice, Knowledge requires commitment and continuing effort to achieve what it has to offer and not everyone wants to make that kind of effort.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I find this highly insulting and false. In many cases, people were extremely committed to practicing knowledge for decades and received very little benefit. Why don't you just state on your website that it doesn't work for everyone because each person has slightly different physiology and brain chemistry and one size does not fit all.

Wonder when they'll respond?

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Date: Tues, Jul 04, 2000 at 02:44:49 (GMT)
From: gerry
Email: None
To: all
Subject: Is Elan Vital a Cult?
Message:
Cult characteristic:

Cults close their borders and display a defensive behavior towards others in society.

'Answer:'

Personal life choices and circumstances are not the concern of Maharaji or Elan Vital and have nothing to do with the practice of Knowledge.

Now what kind of a reBUTTal is that? I'd say they are clearly defensive. Look how they dodged the press for years. Look how they acted against our anti sites. What a bunch of lame suckers.

Their rebuttal just doesn't remotely respond to the criticism.

What say ye, premies (who seem to be curiously in short order these days--maybe they are hiding under their blankies?)

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Date: Tues, Jul 04, 2000 at 03:56:32 (GMT)
From: Joey
Email: None
To: gerry
Subject: Is Elan Vital a Cult?
Message:
Again, Gerry, I'm glad you raised this issue.

I've already posted on the forum about the time I attended a 'Knowledge Pre-Selection' meeting for Toronto aspirants, conducted by Charanand.

At least 50% of the questions that were directed at the aspirants had nothing to do with anything else BUT, their 'personal life choices and circumstances'.

Examples:

-Are you rich?

-Are you poor?

-Are you pregnant?

-Do you suffer from any illnesses?

-Does anyone in your family oppose your receiving knowledge ?

And every fucking word of the aspirants answers were recorded by a premie taking elaborate notes.

Need I say more.

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Date: Tues, Jul 04, 2000 at 04:28:57 (GMT)
From: Joey
Email: None
To: Joey
Subject: PS, RE: Is Elan Vital a Cult?
Message:
That 'knowledge pre-selection' meeting I attended in Toronto was not in 1977. It was 1997
So please premies, if you wanna chime in on this one...don't tell us about how much things have changed since the old days.
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Date: Mon, Jul 03, 2000 at 17:52:21 (GMT)
From: cq
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: For the record ...
Message:




To:

The following letter sent snail-mail today:


(the letters from Elan Vital referred to in it can be viewed at: http://www.ex-premie.org/papers/lear55.htm>http://www.ex-premie.org/papers/lear55.htm


 

To:

Mr David Rich
Investigations Department>
Charity Commission
Harmsworth House
13-15 Bouverie Street>
London ED4Y 8DP


3rd July 2000


Dear Mr Rich,

Re. ELAN VITAL

I would like to bring to your attention the manner in which the above-named charity has, in the past, conducted their fund-raising.

It would appear that the main beneficiary of Elan Vital's fund-raising efforts is none other than the founder of the organisation himself - Mr Prem Pal Singh Rawat (also known as 'Maharaji').

I cite the attached copies of two letters that Elan Vital distributed to potential donators in 1987. Although this happened over 12 years ago, I consider it to be still a matter for the Commission's concern, since such blatant abuse of their charity status has yet to be investigated. An original copy of these letters is available, and a scanned facsimile of them has recently been made available for public viewing on the website at www.ex-premie.org.

That Mr Rawat should still be allowed to profit from Charity status is, quite frankly, scandalous. And that such abuse should be allowed to continue simply because the Charity Commission will not spare the time or the resources to conduct an investigation is nothing less than a condoning of what is, in short, criminal behaviour.

I hope you can ensure that the necessary measures are taken to initiate an investigation of this issue.


Yours sincerely

 

Mr Christopher Giles


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Date: Mon, Jul 03, 2000 at 23:03:45 (GMT)
From: Ben Lurking
Email: None
To: cq
Subject: For the record ...
Message:
Well I got my SS statment the other day and I have 4 years of 0 income (ashram resident). I wonder if the current rules on household help would apply and if I am owed ss. They orginization did recieve value for my services as I worked in a premie business that all the money went who knows where. Does anyone know the law on this, if we could make EV/DLM/M responsible for our medicare and SS payments while we were 'ashram residents' it could put a dent in the works. I mean the housing and food alone I recieved had some value.
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Date: Tues, Jul 04, 2000 at 17:16:55 (GMT)
From: cq
Email: None
To: Ben Lurking
Subject: For the record ...
Message:
Ben, here I have to bow out and say that I know absolutely nothing about the intricasies of the US social services system.

But make a claim, why doncha? No doubt someone, somewhere might have established a precedent on this. And if they haven't, - why not be the first?

Bonne chance,

Chris

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Date: Mon, Jul 03, 2000 at 18:25:17 (GMT)
From: Tonette
Email: not posted
To: cq
Subject: Right On!Someone needs to do the right thing
Message:
Right On!I've always wondered how he gets away with it!Tax exempt too!Can we get a copy of his tax return?Boy that would make for interesting reading!The USA has even tougher laws than England.And yet...he he sits in his mansion built by that cheap premie labor.Or should I say his non members of Elan Vital.How can this guy look at himself in the mirror?What must his children think?His wife?This is all too much.I'll be writing my congresswoman.Refer her to this web site for clarification
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Date: Mon, Jul 03, 2000 at 18:48:02 (GMT)
From: Joey
Email: None
To: Tonette
Subject: RE: tax returns...
Message:
Right On!I've always wondered how he gets away with it!Tax exempt too!Can we get a copy of his tax return?Boy that would make for interesting reading!

Tonette,

According to 'Guidestar,' an organization which monitors charitable, non-profit organizations for the benefit of the public wishing to make donations, EV does NOT have to file a tax return.

Here's the info as it exists on their site:

Elan Vital, Inc.
PO Box 6130, Malibu, CA 90264-6130

Program / Activities
Information currently not available in database

Financial Info
Assets: $ 0
Income $ 0
This organization is not required to file an annual return with the IRS
because it is a church.

Of course, I believe your question pertains to m's personal tax return, and I agree with you...it would be a real hoot (not to mention 'coup':), to get hold of that.

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Date: Mon, Jul 03, 2000 at 18:36:46 (GMT)
From: cq
Email: None
To: Tonette
Subject: talking of tax returns and the like ...
Message:
talking of tax returns and the like ...

thanks for the encouragement, Tonette, (or should I call you Marianne ... ooops - sorry, but really, it was SO obvious - but, thinks, I might be wrong, you're Tonette, not Toinette, yes? ooops again.

But seriously, has anyone requested Elan Vital for access to their 1986-87 financial statements? They're meant to be for public access, y'know. For me living in the old U of K, that's makes a visit to their HQ just a tad OOTQ (as in 'out of the question').

Any volunteers to follow this one up?

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Date: Mon, Jul 03, 2000 at 18:56:11 (GMT)
From: Joey
Email: None
To: cq
Subject: talking of tax returns and the like ...
Message:
But seriously, has anyone requested Elan Vital for access to their 1986-87 financial statements? They're meant to be for public access, y'know. For me living in the old U of K, that's makes a visit to their HQ just a tad OOTQ (as in 'out of the question').

cq,

Please see my post above 'RE: tax returns...'

I really don't know what the applicable laws are in the UK, but in the US, vis a vis their obligations to the IRS...EV simply DOES NOT have to fill out any returns, and no other forms as well. They can if they want to, but they're under no obligation to do so.

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Date: Mon, Jul 03, 2000 at 18:43:58 (GMT)
From: Tonette
Email: not posted
To: cq
Subject: where is their headquarters?
Message:
I'll go if it's nearby but not by myself. Any takers to go with me?
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Date: Mon, Jul 03, 2000 at 19:04:25 (GMT)
From: Joey
Email: None
To: Tonette
Subject: Good question, Tonette
Message:
According to the EV website, they claim to have 5 offices in the US.

However, they offer no precise adresses, just the states in which these offices are located.

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Date: Mon, Jul 03, 2000 at 17:38:12 (GMT)
From: Joey
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: No members...just volunteers????
Message:
From the second section (entitled 'WHO') of the press kit on the EV website:

A feature of this organization in the US and elsewhere, is that it does not have a membership. The basic aim is to provide a platform for the teaching to take place, so that people can hear about and receive what Maharaji has to offer. It is not to create a situation where someone has to be a member of something to benefit from Knowledge.

From the FAQ section of the EV website:

Elan Vital is made up of a largely volunteer workforce. People are our greatest asset and it is because of the efforts of so many people contributing their time and effort that we are where we are today.

OK, so let me see if I understand this.

You can NOT be a member of Elan Vital, BUT...you CAN be part of its volunteer workforce.

Utter hypocrisy, I say!
But I'd be willing to listen to anyone who'd like to argue that the above quotes are NOT contradictory.

Any takers??

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Date: Mon, Jul 03, 2000 at 20:38:23 (GMT)
From: SB
Email: None
To: Joey
Subject: No members...just volunteers????
Message:
If there is no membership why volunteers need to provide a picture to Elan Vital and fill a form when wanting to serve The Lord Of The Universe, Maharaji? They can say there is no membership but anybody with some brains left can see Elan Vital/Maharaji are lying!!
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Date: Mon, Jul 03, 2000 at 18:04:26 (GMT)
From: Coach
Email: None
To: Joey
Subject: No members...just volunteers????
Message:
'Cos without people there'd be no MONEY.

This is the only organisation in the known universe to which you pay your dues but get no membership card. Cheap stunt.

This one's a belter.

'Elan Vital is made up of a largely volunteer workforce. People are our greatest asset and it is because of the efforts of so many people contributing their time and effort that we are where we are today.'

Yeah, living in a fuckin' palace surrounded by slaves never having done an honest day's work in our lives living off the earnings of others.

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Date: Mon, Jul 03, 2000 at 21:01:04 (GMT)
From: Joey
Email: None
To: Coach
Subject: Got news for you , Coach
Message:
This is the only organisation in the known universe to which you pay your dues but get no membership card. Cheap stunt.

In the early DLM-DUO days, here in Canada, we actually DID receive membership cards.

Of course, we were told back then that we weren't really members, because there was 'nothing to belong to', and THAT certainly made the entire process rather puzzling, as all the premies in Montreal lined up one day to have their photographs taken for the files, and membership cards issued.

Question.

If there's nothing really to belong to...what is there worth volunteering one's time to?

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Date: Tues, Jul 04, 2000 at 02:07:14 (GMT)
From: Coach
Email: None
To: Joey
Subject: Ye Gods
Message:
Membership of a non-existent organisation? Ye gods.

I fear you may have just proved that none of this actually happened.

This is a lot worse than I had previously thought. Gulp!!

(trembling hands reach for bottle of pills)

Coach

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Date: Tues, Jul 04, 2000 at 03:06:04 (GMT)
From: Joey
Email: None
To: Coach
Subject: Ye Gods
Message:
I fear you may have just proved that none of this actually happened.

It happened Coach, it happened...but still, there's no need to reach for those pills:)
Actually, I have pohto of a DLM Canada membership card, and I'm trying to contact the guy who sent it to me to get his permission to submit it on the forum (it has his name and signature on it)

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Date: Mon, Jul 03, 2000 at 22:51:34 (GMT)
From: Elaine
Email: None
To: Joey
Subject: Got news for you , Coach
Message:
Guess you never volunteered at a hospice.
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Date: Mon, Jul 03, 2000 at 23:51:17 (GMT)
From: Joey
Email: None
To: Elaine
Subject: Got news for you , Elaine
Message:
Elaine,

I find the comparison implicit in your post between volunteering at a hospice, and volunteering for Maharaji's benefit, to be rather odious.

Just so you know, I did spend a month helping out at a palliative care unit in one of our major hospitals in Montreal, but it really wasn't 'volunteering' in the pure sense of the word. It was part of the preparation for my participation in a community theatre production of a play that deals with terminal illness.

My experience then left me filled with admiration for those who volunteer their time in that way...to help those who are dying, do so in dignity and in an environment of love and caring.

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Date: Tues, Jul 04, 2000 at 20:48:11 (GMT)
From: Elaine
Email: None
To: Joey
Subject: Got news for you , Elaine
Message:
Joey,
My comment was in regards to it not being worth volunteering for something if there's no club or you don't 'belong' or something. I thought that statement didn't ring true.

Volunteering=belonging to a card carrying club ---didn't make sense.

Glad you had a good exp volunteering where you did.

Elaine

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Date: Wed, Jul 05, 2000 at 03:43:01 (GMT)
From: SB
Email: None
To: Elaine
Subject: I can't stand your moronic statements , Elaine
Message:
No fucking way!!
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Date: Tues, Jul 04, 2000 at 00:33:02 (GMT)
From: gerry
Email: None
To: Elaine
Subject: You bug me, Elaine.
Message:
Your presence is kinda like have a perpetrator in support group for people molested by pedophiles.

Maybe you should read more and post less until you get your head screwed on a little tighter.

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Date: Mon, Jul 03, 2000 at 16:13:55 (GMT)
From: Happy
Email: None
To: Anon
Subject: on guru lineage
Message:
Hi Anon,
I did not log in during the weekend, and was accordingly not able to read the replies to my post. I don't log into the forum everyday, in order to be able to do some work, too ...

I always had a great respect for your knowledge in these matters.
However, I am not convinced.

Of cource it is always difficult to be 100% sure. But I'd still make a bet, for the time being, that the Swarupanand guru of the Agra branch really was Hans Ji's guru. The name, the dates (years), teaching, etc, everything seems to fit extremely well. Can you find historical evidence of any known Advait Mat guru named Swarupanand during the 20s-30s (the decades in question), for instance? I don't think so.

Yes, I have read Jurgensmeyer, also David Lane. As you probably know, David Lane worked as Jurgensmeyer's research assistant in India, and drew up all the lineages in Jurgensmeyer's book. They certainly are the two best Western experts as far as Radhasoami lineages are concerned. Still, remember, David Lane has not specifically studied DLM.

I don't really buy the suggestion that Hans ji had a guru from the Beas branch, like some people have suggested in the previous thread (e.g. Sawan Sing or Kirpal Sing), for a number of reasons. Kirpal Sing would be virtually impossible, since they were of the same generation and were competing gurus with each other. For the sake of chronology, Sawan Sing would perhaps be possible. But one thing (besides the difference in name, since it is clearly said in all DLM/EV sources that Swarupanand was Hans Ji's guru) is the difference in teaching. In the Beas branch, they have the teaching of five names of God (panj naam), which they don't have at all within the Agra branch. That would explain why Hans Ji was so angry when one of his mahatmas started to teach the five names during initiation, at one point.

Another thing is that Hans Ji established the ashram Punjabi Bagh in Delhi, very likely to my mind modeled from Dayal Bagh, Swarupanand's ashram (note the ending Bagh). In the Agras branch, there was also the Soami Bagh. The ending Bagh was typical for ashram names in the Agra branch.

A third detail, small but perhaps not necessarily insignificant: the dropping of the use of turbans, still in use among Sawan Sing's & Kirpal Sing's followers. Swarupanand wanted a modern image.

I think it is beyond doubt that Hans Ji had considerably more in common with the Agra branch than with the Beas branch.

You pointed out that in a certain DLM's text ( I have it in my library), it is mentioned that one Varaganand competed with Hans Ji about the successorship. Jurgenmeyer's book names a certain Gurucharandas Mehta (Mehtaji Sahib) as Swarupanand's successor in Dayalbagh. I would not put too much emphasis on this discrepancy. First, there may have been several competing successors, as often was, and still is, the case. Second, Varaganand may have been Mehta Ji's monk name. As you know, people often go under numerous names, and the DLM sources are not known to be especially reliable. There is no other source for this name. I would not make too much of it.

You may be a scientist, I don't know. Probaly you are. I certainly am, and I am used to the principle of going for the most likely explanation until proven wrong. I don't think it is by any means proven beyond doubt that the Swarupanand of the Agra branch of the Radhasoami movement was Hans Ji's guru. But I suggest that there is compelling evidence in favor of this notion. And if so is the case, the whole lineage between Shiv Dayal Sing and Swarupanand is really established, thanks to Jurgensmeyer's and David Lane's excellent work. I think this is of great historical value. I may be wrong, and I appreciate being corrected if I am. Time will show.

Anyway, it should be clear that Hans Ji had a clear connection to the Radhasoami movement, a fact that conveniently has been 'forgotten' or whitewashed within DLM/EV. This, I think, is the main point of interest, from the cult-busting point of view. Who his guru really was I guess is more a matter for the historical record.

All the best, Happy.


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Date: Tues, Jul 04, 2000 at 20:05:24 (GMT)
From: Fairplay
Email: None
To: Happy
Subject: on guru lineage
Message:
Dear Happy,

Daniel Gold has also written 'Clan & Lineage among the Sants; Studies in a devotional tradition of India & also 'Comprehending the Guru: Towards a Grammar of religious perception.

That reminds me where is Miss Grammar these days?

Fairplay

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Date: Tues, Jul 04, 2000 at 20:11:48 (GMT)
From: gErRy
Email: None
To: Fairplay
Subject: Hey Fairplay...
Message:
Borrowing a page from Jim's book, if I may I would like to ask you:

Have you ever posted here under another name?

If so, what name?

I'm asking because you ''sound'' really familiar.

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Date: Tues, Jul 04, 2000 at 19:42:28 (GMT)
From: Fairplay
Email: None
To: Happy
Subject: Radhasoami Lineages
Message:
Dear Happy,

Daniel Gold is another expert on Radhasoamis. In his book, 'The Lord as Guru' the Appendix contains the Agra lineages as well as
those of Beas. There is no mention of Swarupanand though.

Fairplay

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Date: Tues, Jul 04, 2000 at 00:04:38 (GMT)
From: Rob
Email: None
To: Happy
Subject: Further research
Message:
Hi Happy,

I'm sure with perseverance we can get to the bottom of this. I find it odd really that m. has avoided his own history so much, most other cults go to breat pains to impress people with their heritage. I guess he was too busy saving the world:)

I was wondering if you thought it worthwhile trying to get in touch with Dr Lane for his comments and assistance? You have sufficient background knowledge on the subject and academic credibility to catch his interest I'm sure. I saw his email on the Rhad. site as dlane5@hotmail.com, but if that's not accurate it shouldn't be too hard to track him down.

I think he would be quite interested in the current state of affairs of the cult, it's desparate attempt to deny being such and their ham-fisted attempt at rewriting history. I'm sure an educated, objective report from Dr Lane would make a very valuable addition to these pages.

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Date: Tues, Jul 04, 2000 at 11:27:13 (GMT)
From: Happy
Email: None
To: Rob
Subject: One more detail
Message:
Rob, I agree completely with you. Further research is needed.

One more compelling detail:
Prem Pal himself, on his site, mentions the year of death of Swarupanand to be 1936.
Jurgensmeyer and David Lane say the Swarupanand guru of the Agra branch died in 1937.
I say, it comes so awfully close, that in combination with all the other evidence, it gives a strong case. And in that case, we can trace the lineage all the way back to 1850.

Also, the gurus of this lineage were all titled 'Maharaj'
(not 'Baba', or 'Maharishi', or 'Bhagwan', or anything of that sort).

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Date: Tues, Jul 04, 2000 at 11:42:51 (GMT)
From: Mili
Email: mili@cheerful.com
To: Happy
Subject: One more detail
Message:
So that appears to support the lineage stated on Maharaji's site, doesn't it.
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Date: Tues, Jul 04, 2000 at 16:21:15 (GMT)
From: Rob
Email: None
To: Mili
Subject: One more detail
Message:
Like I have said before Mili, it's an old technique - interspersing verifiable truths among the bullshit to make it all appear kosher.

But that isn't even the point. The point is that our tentative research, which I fully intend to continue and enlist the support of objective people like Dr Lane, shows that the cult which you so dearly love and deem exclusive, is in fact but one of approximately 38 branches of the Rhadasoami religious sect. Each has it's own charismatic leader whom, I'm sure, its devotees consider to be 'the one', 'satguru' etc.

In itself this is fine and dandy, but it does rather water down the impression Mr Rawat would like to give that his is the 'real' thing. Remember him saying once that 'there are many similar looking weeds growing in the forest, but the tree (ie the true satguru) will rise above them all in time'. I'm paraphrasing , but maybe someone can find the original quote.

Well if you keep your devotees blinkered and with their noses at your feet, that weed in front of them will seem to be the biggest one around. When you finally stand up and look around for yourself, you see that it's just another weed in a field of weeds.

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Date: Wed, Jul 05, 2000 at 07:55:13 (GMT)
From: Mili
Email: mili@cheerful.com
To: Rob
Subject: One more detail
Message:
'...it's an old technique - interspersing verifiable truths among the bullshit to make it all appear kosher.'

Kind of aptly describes 'Ex-premie.org', doesn't it? Thanks.

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Date: Thurs, Jul 06, 2000 at 02:30:47 (GMT)
From: Rob
Email: None
To: Mili
Subject: Predictable
Message:
OK, so what do you have to say about the rest of my post?
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Date: Wed, Jul 05, 2000 at 17:15:21 (GMT)
From: cq
Email: None
To: Mili
Subject: Let's clear this up once and for all shall we?
Message:
Again and again, the same accusation from premies. Look, if you care to READ this website, copy and paste the bits you think are lies/bullshit and POST them on the Forum - we'd have something to discuss. The fact that no premie ever HAS (to my knowledge) done just that makes it all the more clear that the bullshitting is emanating from none other than YOU, Mili!
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Date: Tues, Jul 04, 2000 at 11:57:51 (GMT)
From: Happy
Email: None
To: Mili
Subject: One more detail
Message:
Mili,
As far as Swarupanand and Shiv Dayal Singh are concerned, yes.
But not for instance concerning Totapuri. And, M does not mention the line of gurus between Shiv Dayal (Param Hans Dayal) and Swarupanand, at all. He also refrains from mentioning that they are part of the Radhasoami movement, which began with Shiv Dayal Singh.
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Date: Tues, Jul 04, 2000 at 14:33:53 (GMT)
From: Jean-Michel
Email: None
To: Happy
Subject: and furthermore
Message:
He never mentioned the fact that there are and have been dozens of 'satgurus' - in that same tradition - now, at his father's time, and at his father's guru's time, all of them claiming to unique.

Of course this is pretty much confusing, and we shouldn't leave any room for doubt in our mind ....

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Date: Tues, Jul 04, 2000 at 13:13:11 (GMT)
From: Jean-Michal
Email: None
To: Happy
Subject: OK, but still missing link with Jesus and Buddha!
Message:
That I haven't quite understood yet !!
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Date: Tues, Jul 04, 2000 at 15:51:18 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Jean-Michal
Subject: Don't forget Shakespeare and King David(nt)
Message:
gggggggg
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Date: Tues, Jul 04, 2000 at 18:25:04 (GMT)
From: cq
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: or Clark Kent and Mr Blobby (nt)
Message:
Jim sez 'Don't forget Shakespeare and King David'(nt) -:- Tues, Jul 04, 2000 at 16:51:18

or Clark Kent and Mr Blobby (nt)

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Date: Tues, Jul 04, 2000 at 14:43:09 (GMT)
From: Happy
Email: None
To: Jean-Michel
Subject: And...
Message:
... although a guru lineage might be traced back to 1850 and Shiv Dayal Singh, there is no telling to what extent the techniques have been altered and exchanged during this period.
Also, there has been a fight about the succession at every point.

(No, no way can you get it to Jesus and Buddha...)

Bye to all of you for three weeks, I'm going off to Spain. Won't log in to this site for some time.

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Date: Mon, Jul 03, 2000 at 17:32:12 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Happy
Subject: Thanks once again, Happy
Message:
Why do I feel like I'm in a Disney cartoon?

Anyway, really appreciate these posts of yours. And Anon's efforts to sort it all out with you. What kind of science do you do, by the way? (PLEASE don't tell me aromatherapy! :) )

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Date: Mon, Jul 03, 2000 at 18:52:30 (GMT)
From: Happy
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Thanks once again, Happy
Message:
Sorry Jim,
now I'm lost? I never said you were like in a disney cartoon? You appear to mistake me for someone else.

You asked about what science i am doing: I'm a professor of psychology. However, I have majored in both philosophy and comparative religion, too.

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Date: Tues, Jul 04, 2000 at 18:39:41 (GMT)
From: hamzen
Email: None
To: Happy
Subject: As usual, interesting stuff from you
Message:
On a slight detour, re psychology, want to find out theories and research around bio-feedback, also the placebo effect, and the physiological effects of them both. Could you point us in a good direction on this 1?
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Date: Mon, Jul 03, 2000 at 19:00:31 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Happy
Subject: Thanks once again, Happy
Message:
Sorry, Happy. The reference was to Snow White. Get it?
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Date: Mon, Jul 03, 2000 at 15:52:32 (GMT)
From: Jean-Michel
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: Anth? Tonight's pilgrimage? (OT)
Message:
I've tried to get in touch with you at Peanutsoft .... couldn't go through!!

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Date: Mon, Jul 03, 2000 at 11:31:13 (GMT)
From: Tim Matheson
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: THE INNER BUZZ(vol. 1)-HE's no longer GOD
Message:
Well, we've now heard it from HIM. HE doesn't want us admitting to the aspirants that we've kissed HIS FEETS, sung the Oh sooooo wonderful song,THE LORD of the UNIVERSE...or even sung ARTI to HIM('Our Lord is the maker of all things created').

HE wants us to just get them interested in HIS KNOWLEDGE and then they will learn who HE really is thru that experience 'within-inside'. I get it! These stupid people just don't get it so we need to just get them to HIS HOLY LOTUS FEETS and HE will then work HIS wonderful magic on them. Yes, LORD...whatever YOU want LORD!

Thank you for waking me up in the middle of the night and directing me to build this club/forum as a shrine to YOUR DIVINITY. This is the place for those who know YOU for who YOU truly are. Thank you, Thank you and pranam as I prosterate at your FEETS.

http://clubs.yahoo.com/clubs/ilovemaharaji

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Date: Tues, Jul 04, 2000 at 10:43:45 (GMT)
From: May be
Email: None
To: Tim Matheson
Subject: Tim = Pauline Premie = Help = Katie?
Message:
Same words, same use of CAPITAL letters,

An intelligent PERSON pretending to be a REALLY STUPID premie?

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Date: Tues, Jul 04, 2000 at 12:31:42 (GMT)
From: Katie
Email: None
To: May be
Subject: see my post below (nt)
Message:
nt
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Date: Mon, Jul 03, 2000 at 12:29:22 (GMT)
From: Sir Dave
Email: sirdavid12@hotmail.com
To: Tim Matheson
Subject: THE INNER BUZZ(vol. 1)-HE's no longer GOD
Message:
Are you the guy who keeps sending me investment scams and porn spam? Of course, Maharaji's the Lord and I'm the King of England. I only reveal my true self to my closest subjects.
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Date: Mon, Jul 03, 2000 at 15:54:30 (GMT)
From: Know It All
Email: None
To: Sir Dave
Subject: THE INNER BUZZ(vol. 1)-HE's no longer GOD
Message:
Sir Dave: I'm surprised that you, as one of the wily, acerbic Brit brigade here, didn't notice the definite ironic tilt to all of Tim's posts.

KIA

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Date: Mon, Jul 03, 2000 at 17:32:48 (GMT)
From: Sir Dave
Email: None
To: Know It All
Subject: Bottom of the class for me
Message:
That's the first post of his I've ever read. I've not been doing my homework have I.
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Date: Mon, Jul 03, 2000 at 12:49:08 (GMT)
From: xxpremie
Email: None
To: Sir Dave
Subject: THE INNER BUZZ(vol. 1)-HE's no longer GOD
Message:
Don't pretend to be stupid, Dave, I guess Tim = Pauline.
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Date: Mon, Jul 03, 2000 at 13:43:40 (GMT)
From: Hal
Email: None
To: xxpremie
Subject: xxx to xx
Message:
Hi xx,

I remember you explaining once how you left and then went back to premiehood, hence your pseudonym xxpremie. I also left for a period of 5yrs from 83-98 and then went back and ardently practiced for 2 yrs before becoming an x in Feb this year, so really I'm an xxx I suppose!

I'm interested in what made you go back again. Do you do an hour a day practice? Do you enjoy the video events? Do you have any criticisms of the way 'premieworld' or Maha are these days? How is your experience in meditation on a daily basis, ie. cosmic or just a nice space to plan the day in?

My experience was that although meditation gave me a good , calm centred feeling and helped me plan my day (think think think), it was by no means an enlightening experience. I really had some great times with it all in the 70's but I think the main enjoyment was being part of a neo hippy movement. I enjoyed the sharing in satsangs and I certainly felt wonderful bliss quite often. However the set up these days leaves me cold. Those videos in hotel rooms and the satellite links ( except the first one ) did nothing for me. I guess I never made the switch to enjoying Maharaji Lite. Anyway I'm genuinely interested in how it is for you.

Hal

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