Joe -:- TDs Excellent Post -- Reprise -:- Fri, Jul 07, 2000 at 00:26:50 (GMT)

__ Joe -:- TDs Excellent Post -- Reprise -:- Fri, Jul 07, 2000 at 00:29:54 (GMT)

__ __ Elaine -:- Joe -:- Fri, Jul 07, 2000 at 15:48:03 (GMT)

__ __ __ Joe -:- Well, Elaine... -:- Fri, Jul 07, 2000 at 16:59:33 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ cq -:- Might I butt in for a moment here ... ? -:- Fri, Jul 07, 2000 at 18:48:28 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ Elaine -:- Joe -:- Fri, Jul 07, 2000 at 18:39:26 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ Joe -:- Elaine, a Story....... -:- Fri, Jul 07, 2000 at 20:16:46 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ Elaine -:- Elaine, a Story....... -:- Fri, Jul 07, 2000 at 21:54:42 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ DV -:- Elaine, a Story....... -:- Fri, Jul 07, 2000 at 23:22:47 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Joe -:- Hey, DV --- any idea who Elaine is? (nt) -:- Fri, Jul 07, 2000 at 23:38:44 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Joe -:- Boy, I missed that...... -:- Fri, Jul 07, 2000 at 23:26:42 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ DV -:- F -:- Sat, Jul 08, 2000 at 03:46:51 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Joe -:- F -:- Sat, Jul 08, 2000 at 04:23:50 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Elaine -:- I forgot /plus interesting info... -:- Sat, Jul 08, 2000 at 15:25:56 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Joe -:- Laura Davis.... -:- Sat, Jul 08, 2000 at 23:16:31 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Joe -:- God, those names. -:- Fri, Jul 07, 2000 at 22:31:28 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ hal -:- God, those names. -:- Sat, Jul 08, 2000 at 15:43:44 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Monmot -:- God, those names. Update -:- Sat, Jul 08, 2000 at 01:12:03 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Joe -:- God, those names. Update -:- Sat, Jul 08, 2000 at 03:23:28 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Elaine -:- God, those names. Update -:- Sat, Jul 08, 2000 at 15:28:28 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Monmot -:- God, those names. Update -:- Sat, Jul 08, 2000 at 04:01:46 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Jim -:- 'Elite', yes, but 'cool'? What's THAT like? -:- Sat, Jul 08, 2000 at 03:31:42 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Joe -:- Jim, 'cool premie' can be described in words (nt) -:- Sat, Jul 08, 2000 at 03:49:52 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Joe -:- Oops, I mean it CAN'T be described in words (nt) -:- Sat, Jul 08, 2000 at 03:53:44 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Jim -:- Yeah, you almost got one of these: '?(nt)' (nt) -:- Sat, Jul 08, 2000 at 04:03:34 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Elaine -:- God, those names. -:- Fri, Jul 07, 2000 at 22:54:33 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Joe -:- God, those names. -:- Fri, Jul 07, 2000 at 23:07:01 (GMT)

__ __ VP -:- Aspirant's excellent journey -:- Fri, Jul 07, 2000 at 01:08:34 (GMT)

__ __ __ TD -:- Aspirant's excellent journey -:- Fri, Jul 07, 2000 at 05:55:04 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ Lotus Eater -:- Aspirant's excellent journey -:- Fri, Jul 07, 2000 at 21:51:42 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ JtF -:- Aspirant's excellent journey/Thanks -:- Fri, Jul 07, 2000 at 10:33:33 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ Joe -:- Aspirant's excellent journey/Thanks -:- Fri, Jul 07, 2000 at 17:09:58 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ Elaine -:- JTF -:- Fri, Jul 07, 2000 at 16:00:51 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ A.P. -:- Money -:- Fri, Jul 07, 2000 at 22:06:31 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Elaine -:- Money -:- Fri, Jul 07, 2000 at 22:30:20 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ DV -:- Thats bullshit Elaine- I've sat in the money room -:- Sat, Jul 08, 2000 at 04:10:58 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Elaine -:- Thats bullshit Elaine- I've sat in the money room -:- Sat, Jul 08, 2000 at 15:33:29 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Monmot -:- Horsepookey -:- Sat, Jul 08, 2000 at 16:00:06 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Monmot -:- Ah, Yes, The Money Room... -:- Sat, Jul 08, 2000 at 04:21:26 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Joe -:- Michael Bergman -:- Sat, Jul 08, 2000 at 04:29:30 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ bill -:- Michael Bergman -:- Sun, Jul 09, 2000 at 05:39:30 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Monmot -:- Friday Nite Around The Campfire... -:- Sat, Jul 08, 2000 at 04:43:40 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Joe -:- Friday Nite Around The Campfire... -:- Sat, Jul 08, 2000 at 05:04:07 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Monmot -:- Friday Nite Around The Campfire... -:- Sat, Jul 08, 2000 at 05:15:17 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Joe -:- Friday Nite Around The Campfire... -:- Sat, Jul 08, 2000 at 05:25:09 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Elaine -:- Jeff Steinberg selling shoes in LV -:- Sat, Jul 08, 2000 at 15:47:57 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Monmot -:- Friday Nite Around The Campfire... -:- Sat, Jul 08, 2000 at 05:31:19 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Joe -:- 'New Gay???' Is that a magazine for homosexuals? -:- Sat, Jul 08, 2000 at 05:43:19 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Monmot -:- LOL!!! He's changed his name... -:- Sat, Jul 08, 2000 at 05:56:32 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Joe -:- Yes, Jeff Steinhardt (sp?) that's it ..and... -:- Sat, Jul 08, 2000 at 06:00:01 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Monmot -:- Jeff's in Orange County -:- Sat, Jul 08, 2000 at 06:07:22 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Joe -:- Good place, he looked like a young republican...nt -:- Sat, Jul 08, 2000 at 06:09:47 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Elaine -:- Well now he looks -:- Sat, Jul 08, 2000 at 15:53:55 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Tonette -:- Yes she is still a premie -:- Sat, Jul 08, 2000 at 06:04:25 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Monmot -:- How about Jon Knight? nt -:- Sat, Jul 08, 2000 at 06:08:50 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Susan -:- hey, I love this whatever happened to stuff -:- Sat, Jul 08, 2000 at 06:02:57 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Tonette -:- what ever happened to Grace Wallace? nt -:- Sat, Jul 08, 2000 at 06:06:04 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Monmot -:- Sounds Familiar...Any Other Last Name? nt -:- Sat, Jul 08, 2000 at 06:16:05 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Susan -:- but, were you remembering the Holy Name? -:- Sat, Jul 08, 2000 at 05:59:59 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Monmot -:- Snoot Was Sincere But Not Clear -:- Sat, Jul 08, 2000 at 06:05:35 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Susan -:- there are lots of people I wonder about. -:- Sat, Jul 08, 2000 at 06:09:29 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Monmot -:- Definitely a Space Chewer, But Veddy Interesting -:- Sat, Jul 08, 2000 at 06:12:41 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Katie -:- LOL, Monmot -:- Sat, Jul 08, 2000 at 14:16:53 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Monmot -:- Took A Lonnng Time, But Yes, Very Nice :-) nt -:- Sat, Jul 08, 2000 at 20:31:47 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Susan -:- Friday Nite Around The Campfire... -:- Sat, Jul 08, 2000 at 05:39:22 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Joe -:- More Dirt on Booth Dyess -:- Sat, Jul 08, 2000 at 05:37:52 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Susan -:- More Dirt on Booth Dyess -:- Sat, Jul 08, 2000 at 05:40:48 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Susan -:- And I know I have told you both how -:- Sat, Jul 08, 2000 at 05:47:58 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Monmot -:- More Dirt on Booth Dyess -:- Sat, Jul 08, 2000 at 05:47:55 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Joe -:- More Dirt on Booth Dyess -:- Sat, Jul 08, 2000 at 05:54:31 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Susan -:- LOL LOL...thanks, when I was a premie I always -:- Sat, Jul 08, 2000 at 05:50:39 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Monmot -:- Horse Hooves? That's Why Knowledge Didn't Work nt -:- Sat, Jul 08, 2000 at 05:59:56 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Joe -:- Booth's reputation preceded him..... -:- Sat, Jul 08, 2000 at 05:56:42 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ SB -:- Elaine: You know it all! ROFL -:- Fri, Jul 07, 2000 at 21:34:08 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ Rob -:- Spin on this. -:- Fri, Jul 07, 2000 at 19:01:08 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Elaine -:- Spin on this.Joe a question -:- Fri, Jul 07, 2000 at 22:00:51 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ DV -:- Elaine, the money received at the programs is not -:- Sat, Jul 08, 2000 at 04:28:06 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Joe -:- I honestly don't know. -:- Fri, Jul 07, 2000 at 22:50:07 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ cq -:- EV's budget: 17 million bucks last year? Phew ... -:- Fri, Jul 07, 2000 at 19:11:12 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ SB -:- EV's budget: 17 million bucks last year? Phew ... -:- Fri, Jul 07, 2000 at 22:06:39 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ cq -:- EV's budget: 17 million bucks last year? Phew ... -:- Sat, Jul 08, 2000 at 14:11:31 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Joey -:- EV's budget: 17 million bucks last year? Phew ... -:- Sat, Jul 08, 2000 at 01:48:37 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Rob -:- It 's who you know;) -:- Fri, Jul 07, 2000 at 19:21:39 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ cq -:- Thank you Mr Anderson (ooops ... shhhhhhh...) nt -:- Fri, Jul 07, 2000 at 19:29:55 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Rob -:- Oh gee, thanks for outing me Chris Giles!! nt -:- Fri, Jul 07, 2000 at 19:53:38 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ cq -:- they'll never believe it! (nor did I) (nt) -:- Fri, Jul 07, 2000 at 20:26:37 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ JtF -:- JTF/rawat's source of income -:- Fri, Jul 07, 2000 at 17:33:35 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Elaine -:- JTF/rawat's source of income -:- Fri, Jul 07, 2000 at 18:51:34 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ Joe -:- Why knowledge is 'hard' to get. -:- Fri, Jul 07, 2000 at 17:23:09 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Elaine -:- Why knowledge is 'hard' to get. -:- Fri, Jul 07, 2000 at 18:47:18 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ VP -:- Elaine, Maharaji has money -:- Sun, Jul 09, 2000 at 02:20:04 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Hal -:- He's doing something right -:- Fri, Jul 07, 2000 at 19:24:56 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ Katie -:- Aspirant's excellent journey/Thanks Daneane -:- Fri, Jul 07, 2000 at 14:14:14 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ Helen -:- Go Daneane -:- Fri, Jul 07, 2000 at 20:43:04 (GMT)

Keith -:- Does Knowledge work? -:- Fri, Jul 07, 2000 at 00:14:54 (GMT)

__ Jerry -:- Does Knowledge work? -:- Fri, Jul 07, 2000 at 13:19:37 (GMT)

__ __ Keith -:- Does Knowledge work? -:- Sat, Jul 08, 2000 at 01:06:49 (GMT)

__ __ __ Jerry -:- Does Knowledge work? -:- Sat, Jul 08, 2000 at 09:13:04 (GMT)

__ bill -:- Does Knowledge work? -:- Fri, Jul 07, 2000 at 04:07:19 (GMT)

__ __ Keith -:- Does Knowledge work? -:- Fri, Jul 07, 2000 at 05:09:01 (GMT)

__ __ __ bill -:- Does Knowledge work? -:- Sat, Jul 08, 2000 at 11:34:27 (GMT)

__ __ __ gerry -:- Does Knowledge work? -:- Fri, Jul 07, 2000 at 05:14:28 (GMT)

__ gErRy -:- I don't each trucks... -:- Fri, Jul 07, 2000 at 03:45:00 (GMT)

__ __ gErRy -:- I don't each trucks v2 sounds better, say it aloud -:- Fri, Jul 07, 2000 at 04:38:35 (GMT)

__ __ __ Keith -:- trucks and clucks and chicks in a flurry... -:- Fri, Jul 07, 2000 at 05:13:49 (GMT)

__ bill -:- Does your breath 'work'? (nt) -:- Fri, Jul 07, 2000 at 03:06:25 (GMT)

__ __ Keith -:- if my breath didn't work.. -:- Fri, Jul 07, 2000 at 03:23:29 (GMT)

__ Jim -:- Why not put on a workshop, Keith? -:- Fri, Jul 07, 2000 at 02:20:44 (GMT)

__ Elaine -:- Does Knowledge work? -:- Fri, Jul 07, 2000 at 01:35:48 (GMT)

__ __ Rob -:- Dear Elaine -:- Fri, Jul 07, 2000 at 05:21:11 (GMT)

__ __ __ Jim -:- Great question, Rob. What of it, premies? (nt) -:- Fri, Jul 07, 2000 at 15:43:07 (GMT)

__ __ Keith -:- Does Knowledge work? -:- Fri, Jul 07, 2000 at 03:21:38 (GMT)

__ __ __ Elaine -:- Does Knowledge work? -:- Fri, Jul 07, 2000 at 15:44:31 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ Jim -:- You want the truth? You can't HANDLE the truth! -:- Fri, Jul 07, 2000 at 16:24:40 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ Rob -:- I think they are worth reading Jim -:- Fri, Jul 07, 2000 at 19:11:06 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ SB -:- I can say that I do 'enjoy' reading Elaine posts!! -:- Fri, Jul 07, 2000 at 22:24:19 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ cq -:- and (in their own sweet way) juicier than ELK's nt -:- Fri, Jul 07, 2000 at 19:14:04 (GMT)

__ __ __ gErRy -:- Don't cast your pearls before swine... -:- Fri, Jul 07, 2000 at 04:25:03 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ Felix the ... -:- If Keith worked he wouldn't spend so much.... -:- Fri, Jul 07, 2000 at 12:57:18 (GMT)

Lotus Eater -:- The Emperors Clothes -:- Thurs, Jul 06, 2000 at 22:32:33 (GMT)

__ Hal -:- Absolutely right on LE (nt) -:- Fri, Jul 07, 2000 at 09:58:52 (GMT)

Tonette -:- Our own festival/program/event -:- Thurs, Jul 06, 2000 at 17:03:36 (GMT)

__ VP -:- Our own party--sort of ot -:- Thurs, Jul 06, 2000 at 17:34:36 (GMT)

__ __ Joe -:- Rent the Miami Beach Convention Center...... -:- Thurs, Jul 06, 2000 at 18:18:12 (GMT)

__ __ __ VP -:- The following is a JOKE-ex fest 2000 -:- Thurs, Jul 06, 2000 at 19:03:57 (GMT)

Susan -:- I am deciding how to respond -:- Thurs, Jul 06, 2000 at 14:48:47 (GMT)

__ Jean-Michel -:- More thoughts on a response -:- Fri, Jul 07, 2000 at 09:25:24 (GMT)

__ __ Joey -:- More thoughts on a response -:- Fri, Jul 07, 2000 at 19:47:58 (GMT)

__ bill -:- I am deciding how to respond (ditto) -:- Fri, Jul 07, 2000 at 03:19:15 (GMT)

__ Joe -:- Jagdeo's Crimes -:- Thurs, Jul 06, 2000 at 20:35:44 (GMT)

__ __ cq -:- and bravo to the both of you for exposing him (nt) -:- Fri, Jul 07, 2000 at 18:55:01 (GMT)

__ Elaine -:- Susan -:- Thurs, Jul 06, 2000 at 19:59:53 (GMT)

__ __ SB -:- Elaine: Shut the fuck up!! -:- Fri, Jul 07, 2000 at 02:41:35 (GMT)

__ __ SB -:- Elaine: Have Elan Vital received your complain.... -:- Thurs, Jul 06, 2000 at 20:29:02 (GMT)

__ __ __ Rob -:- You're starting to get my attention Elaine...NT -:- Fri, Jul 07, 2000 at 05:26:31 (GMT)

__ Jean-Michel -:- One suggestion -:- Thurs, Jul 06, 2000 at 15:43:21 (GMT)

__ __ bill -:- I agree JM (nt) -:- Fri, Jul 07, 2000 at 03:24:53 (GMT)

__ shp -:- reply to Susan -:- Thurs, Jul 06, 2000 at 15:33:59 (GMT)

__ __ Tonette -:- reply to Susan -:- Thurs, Jul 06, 2000 at 16:23:10 (GMT)

__ __ __ shp -:- reply to Tonette -:- Fri, Jul 07, 2000 at 11:07:51 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ Tonette -:- reply to Tonette -:- Sat, Jul 08, 2000 at 03:22:50 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ shp -:- reply to Tonette -:- Sat, Jul 08, 2000 at 13:17:27 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ Jim -:- How stupid you are, shp! -:- Sat, Jul 08, 2000 at 18:58:18 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ shp -:- Exclamations, commands etc is what you are about. -:- Sat, Jul 08, 2000 at 20:11:49 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Jim -:- You're just a big ninny, aren't you? -:- Sat, Jul 08, 2000 at 21:18:14 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ shp -:- You're just a big ninny, aren't you? -:- Sat, Jul 08, 2000 at 23:05:56 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ Jim -:- Shp would have been a great Tartuffe -:- Fri, Jul 07, 2000 at 16:13:23 (GMT)

__ __ __ SB -:- Do you have the burff bag? Who has them, pass one -:- Thurs, Jul 06, 2000 at 19:24:11 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ Katie -:- I respect shp for his actions in this matter -:- Thurs, Jul 06, 2000 at 20:57:47 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ Jim -:- Do u respect his rationalizing on m's behalf too? -:- Thurs, Jul 06, 2000 at 23:57:59 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ Katie -:- Maharaji knows about it NOW! -:- Fri, Jul 07, 2000 at 14:37:46 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ cq - and his silence -:- continues to be the most eloquent thing he's never -:- Fri, Jul 07, 2000 at 19:17:16 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ SB -:- I respect shp for his actions in this matter -:- Thurs, Jul 06, 2000 at 21:13:25 (GMT)

__ __ Jim -:- YOU MAKE ME PUKE, SHP! (nt) -:- Thurs, Jul 06, 2000 at 15:38:03 (GMT)

__ __ __ Susan -:- actions speak louder than words -:- Thurs, Jul 06, 2000 at 15:52:01 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ shp -:- actions speak louder than words -:- Fri, Jul 07, 2000 at 11:20:27 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ Jim -:- There you go, Susan, your own private angel (nt) -:- Fri, Jul 07, 2000 at 15:47:47 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ Jim -:- Sorry, I can't get past his gross sanctimoniousnes -:- Thurs, Jul 06, 2000 at 16:08:28 (GMT)

__ VP -:- I understand -:- Thurs, Jul 06, 2000 at 15:14:56 (GMT)

__ __ Tonette -:- ditto nt -:- Thurs, Jul 06, 2000 at 15:18:01 (GMT)

__ Ruphus -:- I am deciding how to respond -:- Thurs, Jul 06, 2000 at 15:06:43 (GMT)

__ __ Tonette -:- You must do something -:- Thurs, Jul 06, 2000 at 15:14:48 (GMT)

__ __ __ VP -:- You must do something -:- Thurs, Jul 06, 2000 at 15:36:50 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ VP again -:- You must do something-clarification -:- Thurs, Jul 06, 2000 at 19:54:36 (GMT)

__ __ __ Tonette's Husband -:- You must do something besides this.. -:- Thurs, Jul 06, 2000 at 15:31:52 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ Tonette -:- Hey sweetheart -:- Thurs, Jul 06, 2000 at 16:26:42 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ Jim -:- You doing anything after work, Tonette? (nt) -:- Thurs, Jul 06, 2000 at 15:37:00 (GMT)

__ Gerry -:- I am deciding how to respond -:- Thurs, Jul 06, 2000 at 15:04:23 (GMT)

__ __ Elaine -:- I am deciding how to respond -:- Thurs, Jul 06, 2000 at 20:03:01 (GMT)

__ __ __ gErRy -:- Now yer talkin' Elaine -:- Fri, Jul 07, 2000 at 04:21:39 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ Elaine -:- Now yer talkin' Elaine -:- Fri, Jul 07, 2000 at 15:19:36 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ Mechanic -:- Now yer talkin' Elaine -:- Fri, Jul 07, 2000 at 15:36:38 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ Marianne -:- You'd better stop this talk -:- Fri, Jul 07, 2000 at 16:13:33 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ gerry -:- Well, I like to shove a potato up his... -:- Fri, Jul 07, 2000 at 21:29:08 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Elaine -:- Well, I like to shove a potato up his... -:- Fri, Jul 07, 2000 at 22:42:56 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Elaine -:- You'd better stop this talk -:- Fri, Jul 07, 2000 at 16:32:55 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Elaine's neighbour -:- You'd better stop this talk -:- Fri, Jul 07, 2000 at 22:53:44 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Rob -:- Just an opinon....(FA's pls note) -:- Fri, Jul 07, 2000 at 20:27:19 (GMT)

__ __ __ Katie -:- Not the answer -:- Thurs, Jul 06, 2000 at 21:12:43 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ Elaine -:- Not the answer -:- Fri, Jul 07, 2000 at 15:23:52 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ gErRy -:- Do I have to teach youeverything??? -:- Fri, Jul 07, 2000 at 04:38:19 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ Katie -:- Hell, no! -:- Fri, Jul 07, 2000 at 13:46:22 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ gErRy -:- KATIE ARE YOU SUGGESTING -:- Fri, Jul 07, 2000 at 22:03:20 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ gerry -:- Uh, Katie, that was supposed to be a joke... -:- Fri, Jul 07, 2000 at 14:33:45 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Katie -:- Uh, Katie, that was supposed to be a joke... -:- Fri, Jul 07, 2000 at 14:41:53 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ VP -:- Not the answer -:- Thurs, Jul 06, 2000 at 21:15:31 (GMT)

__ __ __ Joey -:- Don't go there, Elaine -:- Thurs, Jul 06, 2000 at 20:57:11 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ Elaine -:- Don't go there, Elaine -:- Fri, Jul 07, 2000 at 00:45:28 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ Rob -:- Joey's right -:- Fri, Jul 07, 2000 at 05:31:01 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ Sir Dave -:- Don't go there, Elaine -:- Fri, Jul 07, 2000 at 01:46:59 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ Joey -:- Don't go there, Elaine -:- Fri, Jul 07, 2000 at 03:44:32 (GMT)

Date: Fri, Jul 07, 2000 at 00:26:50 (GMT) From: Joe Email: None To: Everyone Subject: TDs Excellent Post -- Reprise Message:

I hope TD doesn't mind, but I thought this excellent post of hers deserved to have its own thread rather than to be buried down in another one. I think she hits the nail on the head as to why Elan Vital/Maharaji is a cult. I really agree with TD here, this was certainly my experience as a premie. Indeed, premies love to lord it over aspirants, and boy do they! One of the essential elements of a cult is that the cult members get to believe they have something special that other people don't have -- it's one of the few pleasures one has as a premie. Do premies every wonder why they are not able to take friends without knowledge to certain programs? Why can't people without knowledge watch certain videotapes? Why can't everything be shared with people who want to know or who are interested right from the start? Right up front? Does this ever feel WRONG to premies? Do they ever question this? Again, and I think this was where that book 'The Guru Papers' was so helpful to me, was that it explained the whole authoritarian process, and how the student is never good enough, and will always be one step behind the master, no matter how hard they try. And there's something about humans whereby if we have to wait a while and jump through hoops first to achieve a goal, we expect that everybody else would have to do the same, and we help to reinforce that - hence the 'you can't see this video yet - you don't have K' spiel. No short cuts. You gotta do your time first. And M and K would fall over in a heap, if it didn't build up that exclusive zone around it, and at times seem unobtainable, until you get so bloody obsessed about it, that you'll do anything to get it. It's the ole exclusive club syndrome. And it works too, especially with people saying 'wait till you get K! It's so amazing'. And you know the funny thing is, is that even after I had K for a couple of years, older premies told me that it was even better 20 years down the track, so again you're on that lower rung, not quite good enough yet. But to answer your questions, I think premies deep down do ask all these questions, and M knows this too, but these are referred to as 'doubts' and you know how evil doubts are to a premie. And also I think that until they are out of the cult, and get their logic back, they are never going to see it very clearly. You know it's like when you're in a bad job or relationship and you end up kind of numbing yourself to how bad it really is while in it, and then once you do finally get out, you look back and go 'fuck that really was bad.' The human body must kick into some sort of survival numbing process I reckon.

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Date: Fri, Jul 07, 2000 at 00:29:54 (GMT) From: Joe Email: None To: Joe Subject: TDs Excellent Post -- Reprise Message:

I just wanted to add, that I think TDs analysis sheds light on why it is so difficult to receive knowledge. Why you have to go to videos for so long, go through some humiliating selection process, have the rules changed constantly, and never feel good enough to get it. It's a vital part of the cult that the initiation process is so involved and why the aspirants are so played with. It makes the premies feel special, like they have something valuable, and it makes people who receive knowledge this it's something special, even though it's just some bland meditation techniques.

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Date: Fri, Jul 07, 2000 at 15:48:03 (GMT) From: Elaine Email: None To: Joe Subject: Joe Message:

Joe, I disagree. I think it makes the premies feel stupid and embarassed. Elaine

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Date: Fri, Jul 07, 2000 at 16:59:33 (GMT) From: Joe Email: None To: Elaine Subject: Well, Elaine... Message:

From what I have seen you say here, you are not the typical premie. I'm really glad you have that sensibility. I remember before I left the cult, I was feeling all this pressure to try to convert people I knew who weren't premies. But I cared enough for them that I just couldn't subject them to the premies, to sadistic and rude instructors like David Smith, and I was REALLY embarrassed by the introductory and aspirant process of Elan Vital. But of course, since I believed everything Maharaji did as 'perfect' I thought it was just my lack of devotion when I noticed what a terrible speaker he was, how his 'talk' at an intro program to which I brought people I knew didn't make any sense, was rambling and incoherent, etc. But I think there are premies, mostly those who are heavily involved as 'volunteers' in EV who get off on thinking they are special because they have knowledge, and, like TD said, they think that aspirants should have to go through the grueling and arbitrary selection process to get it. I'm happy to hear that you don't feel that way, but then you said you don't even recommend that people you know receive knowledge. Good for you.

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Date: Fri, Jul 07, 2000 at 18:48:28 (GMT) From: cq Email: None To: Joe Subject: Might I butt in for a moment here ... ? Message:

Might I butt in for a moment here ... ? They say that, when we meet a stranger for the first time, we make our minds up about them within the first ... minute? ... 30 seconds? So with the Maha. The very first exposure to hearing about 'KNOWLEDGE' can do that for some people ( -and the presumption that many make is that lacking 'knowledge' implies stupidity). Once they've set themselves the target of GETTING this so-called 'knowledge', wild horses wouldn't get in their way. Why? Perhaps Elaine might like to offer her perspective on this?

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Date: Fri, Jul 07, 2000 at 18:39:26 (GMT) From: Elaine Email: None To: Joe Subject: Joe Message:

JW, Back in the late 70's I had a 'darshan dream' - in this dream (regardless whether darshan or not) I 'saw' how these PAM's (like in my dream it was Joan Apter) really NEEDED to be PAM's. They were insecure or just nutty in some way--they needed to be special and around M. I didn't. Period. No reason to feel any less special. When I would have 'service', say, in the first three rows or something at a program-- and there needed to be a switch for some reason (ex. once a husband was looking for his wife and she wanted more protection) my 'supervisor would come to me for the switch bec she knew I didn't care about sitting 'far away' in the balcony. This 'special' thing is very weird and causes alot of separation,jealousy and general bad feelings. I laugh at those that think they are. I've stared down the best of 'em - including instructors that thought they were hot shit --- or maybe just 'higher' than I was. It's just illusion. If anything - practicing k made me feel the 'equality' of everyone. And, Joe, I knew you fr COLL - you were always a nice guy and we always got along fine.You liked me,too. Elaine

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Date: Fri, Jul 07, 2000 at 20:16:46 (GMT) From: Joe Email: None To: Elaine Subject: Elaine, a Story....... Message:

Gee, Elaine, now I'm wondering who you are. If you were as rebellious then as you are now, I know I would have liked you at COLL. Certainly at COLL we were never in the higher echelons of the cult, were we? I guess that's what I liked about it. Your mentioning COLL, and in relation to the aspirant process reminds me of something. I don't know if you recall, but in San Antonio, my job was being a zoo keeper at the San Antonio Zoo. Actually, there was another premie named Rob who worked there too, but he got kidnapped by his parents and deprogrammed during that period, and I never saw him again, but that's another story. Anyhow, there was a guy I worked with, a black guy named Lani, who I used to give satsang to when we worked together at the Zoo. I invited him to intro satsang, etc., and finally, when Mahatma Padarthanad came to town, he held a knowledge selection and Lani asked to receive knowledge. The knowledge selection went on for days, and Padarthanad was really heavy, really telling people that this was a path of devotion and that if they received knowledge before they were ready it would damage them. Remember that kind of talk? Remember the 'rotting vegetables' stuff Maharaji said? I was in charge of intro programs at COLL during that time, so I sat in on the selection. Obviously, I was rooting for Lani to receive knowledge. This was in 1975. Anyhow, Padarthanad asked Lani a bunch of questions, and, in particular, he asked Lani if he had smoked dope in the past two months. When Lani honestly said he had, Padarthanad laid into him, saying something like: 'What kind of devotion is this?' etc., etc., saying Lani wasn't ready for knowledge. [I remember even thinking then, about how could someone be devoted if they didn't even have knowledge, but that was what was required, and why was it it a requirement that one couldn't smoke dope BEFORE receiving knowledge?] Why couldn't Lani receive knowledge since he was sincere, and that was supposedly all that Maharaji required? [A 'guilless heart'] It was also weired because he didn't ask any of the other (caucasion) aspirants that question. I asked Padarthanad about this and he gave this bigoted, racist answer. He said that 'black people are like people from Fiji, and are just into sensual pleasure, and lack the discipline to practice knowledge.' I remember being devestated. I told Padarthanad I thought that was racist and he told me I was in my mind. I never did intro programs at COLL after that, I guess because I questioned Padarthanand. By the way, Padarthanad also bragged that since he had given knowledge to so many people in Australia, Australia had much more devoted premies than the USA did, I guess because he was so 'selective.' Of course, that was hogwash and the attrition rate among people in Australia was just as bad as it was in the USA. Are you in touch with any other COLL people? I talked to Mary Haley recently, now Mary Jordan. She was somebody I was pretty close to, and another terrific person. You aren't her, are you? Joe

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Date: Fri, Jul 07, 2000 at 21:54:42 (GMT) From: Elaine Email: None To: Joe Subject: Elaine, a Story....... Message:

Jeez Joe, What a gross story about Pardarthanand. I didn't know he was like that. I'd love to ask him if he still believes that shit. But, he'd probably say I was in my mind for asking. I don't remember Rob off hand. I remember Barrie Baer got deprogrammmed when she went home to visit like in some southern state. Gosh, My mind goes blank on Mary Haley - slender nose and face?? Not Holley right. Used to smoke pot with Rene - down by the river bank. Remember he was a waiter?-He'd get pot as a tip sometimes. I guess I felt pretty honored to be one of the people he picked to share it with.Smoked pot with Helen, also. To this day I tell teenagers what she taught me about carrying Noxema around with you to hide any smell. She was a doll - remember ex-nun??So maybe if you'd known what a rebel I was you wouldn't have liked me afterall? Eh? Gail,Burke,Robin and Jane hear from them occasionally.Oh, saw Stanley from Philly a few years back -he was still friends with Stephanie they were healthy and well. (Oh, I guess you know Rene passed away.)Sorry if it is a shock. :( We should have had a 'class' picture of us all. I've seen Deborah being helped away from a program crying as usual.It's hard not using last names. I don't have the right to. Anyway, take care, Elaine

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Date: Fri, Jul 07, 2000 at 23:22:47 (GMT) From: DV Email: None To: Elaine Subject: Elaine, a Story....... Message:

I was there the last nine months until they shut down. I was the ping pong king- F was second seed. What a scene that place was. Atrology experiments run by Mark, accupressure class with whats his name. I also played a lot of tennis, pretty laid back scene as there was no required satsang attendance. Lots of pot smoking, nude swimming parties at the end. Alas, if only I knew then what I know now...

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Date: Fri, Jul 07, 2000 at 23:38:44 (GMT) From: Joe Email: None To: DV Subject: Hey, DV --- any idea who Elaine is? (nt) Message:

nt

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Date: Fri, Jul 07, 2000 at 23:26:42 (GMT) From: Joe Email: None To: DV Subject: Boy, I missed that...... Message:

I was transferred to another ashram from the Denver program in July, 1976. Remember that program? It was during the 'humanitarian leader' period, when for a brief time, we were instructed to start viewing Maharaji as someone other than god. We even did lots of 'workshops' I recall. Of course, that was very short-lived, and the 'dark devotional period' was in full swing by the end of 1976, according to Mishler, because donations to Maharaji were drying up and he was afraid he would lose his lifestyle. F. Attems. He had been Claudia's boyfriend in Europe before Raja Ji married her, and later divorced her.

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Date: Sat, Jul 08, 2000 at 03:46:51 (GMT) From: DV Email: None To: Joe Subject: F Message:

I first met F on a personal basis because I was demoted from being a driver for the p's going to work to 'regular' jobs. Seems I was 'too blissed out' according to Nancy( I can't remember her last name, from New York?). We went to some oil baron's mansion with the job of trimming all of the trees on his property. His driveway was a two hundred foot circle with a good 20-30 live oaks lining it. We started on the first one, and traded stories of our lives and experiences. For days we moved from tree to tree- he told me of living with Claudia in an ancient rented Spanish Moor on the coast of Morocco, raising chickens and goats, buying fistfuls of hashish from the locals, surfing. We sat up there for hours and laughed and cried our asses off. Then the oil baron sensed that we were having too much fun (thats my slant on it, tho with the perspective of age maybe it was we weren't meeting his production standards), and he hired a Mexican supervisor to run the plantation with a rather Nazi bent, and we, especially F, were not too pleased at all. The next day, I, over F's objection, cut down a huge portion of one of the ancient towering trees in the back(they were terribly overgrown), causing it to collapse across the sacred rear patios requiring weeks to cut up and remove it. El Sargente went nuts, F didn't say a word and just marched of the property, and I, looking at both of them, fell into formation behind him. We never looked back. Our careers in COLL were not over, but that is another story. I truly enjoyed his company and hope he is doing well today.

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Date: Sat, Jul 08, 2000 at 04:23:50 (GMT) From: Joe Email: None To: DV Subject: F Message:

I have to say, I agree with you about F. After I got sent to San Francisco from Miami, F came through as an initiator. We used to go running together in Golden Gate Park and I took him out for coffee. I was pretty miserable at that point, suicidal in fact, I hated being a premie so much, and F was really great to be around. Very supportive. I remember he even called me from other cities on his tour to see if I was okay.

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Date: Sat, Jul 08, 2000 at 15:25:56 (GMT) From: Elaine Email: None To: Joe Subject: I forgot /plus interesting info... Message:

You had asked when I was at COLL -I was there early and was 'sent' to an ashram in early '76. So DV may not have known me. I was told a 'Laura?' was at COLL she came after me I guess then, too-she wrote the thick, big selling book 'The Courage to Heal'. I have the book somewhere if you need to know I'll get the name someday for you. I would imagine most women here that have had childhood stuff happen know of the book. It's one of the biggies in the therapy/healing world.

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Date: Sat, Jul 08, 2000 at 23:16:31 (GMT) From: Joe Email: None To: Elaine Subject: Laura Davis.... Message:

Laura was also at COLL and she wrote a book about childhood sexual abuse, about how she was a victim herself. That's the person you are talking about. She was living in San Francisco, but I haven't seen her in years so I don't know if she still does. I saw her on television a few years ago on the issue of protecting children from abuse by their parents. She is most definately no longer a premie. Laura was there pretty early I think, I mean at COLL. She was probably there when you were there.

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Date: Fri, Jul 07, 2000 at 22:31:28 (GMT) From: Joe Email: None To: Elaine Subject: God, those names. Message:

Was Rene, Rene 'Martinez?' He was gay, right. I was his roommate for awhile. Actually, in the 80s sometime I saw him outside a movie theater in San Francisco. He said he wasn't into Maharaji anymore but was into Muktananda or somebody like that. Yeah, he was a waiter. I didn't know he died. Was it AIDS? I NEVER would have smoked dope at COLL. I was too much of a straight-laced ashram premie to do that. I would never have believed that any dope-smoking was going on there, to tell you the truth. Yes, I remember Helen Sullivan, the ex-nun. I loved her; she was so much fun and so funny and I remember her from Chicago before COLL. I wonder whatever happened to her. I remember when Barrie was deprogrammed too. She was a sweet person. Gail and Burke were married right? The Mary you are thinking of is Mary Holle. She had an affair with Burke and it really freaked out his wife. Mary and I received knowledge in the same knowledge session, in Omaha, Nebraska. She went on to be a honcho in DLM and ELan Vital. I think now she heads up the company from which Maharaji 'leases' his plane. Elan Vital doesn't mention that that separate company is all run by premies, and ultimately by Maharaji himself. It's just a shell/charade, but Elan Vital makes it sound like they rent Maharaji's plane to other people. Fat chance. I think you have Mary Haley right. She was from Connecticut, and a reall sweetheart. She married Tom Jordan, who was also at COLL for awhile. Now they live in Western Mass. She and Tom are both ex-premies now and think M is a scheister. Do you mean Deborah Roettinger? She became an initiator, in the late 70s which shocked everyone, especially he brother, Alan, because she was so nuts. I can just imagine that she puts on a good show of being overcome at programs if she still goes. She was good at that. She and Alan came from some wealthy family and are really into the Malibu/jet-set premie scene. Alan, who was also at COLL, is still a die-hard premie, and wrote some sickening shit on Enjoyinglife a while back. Really frightening stuff. Robin and Jane --- I don't recall them. What years were you at COLL? Other names from COLL--- Marc Lerner, Erica Andersen, Danny Munter, Nona Vicker and her son Sky (Nona became an ex by about 1978 and went on to get her PhD in literature from Brown University). Remember Bill Patterson? I guess he dumped Maharaji too. I thought he would be the LAST person to split.

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Date: Sat, Jul 08, 2000 at 15:43:44 (GMT) From: hal Email: None To: Joe Subject: God, those names. Message:

Reading this stuff is great! It's rather like eavesdropping on a private conversation between old friends. We really did have good times, which were not only to do with Maha but a sort of tribal feeling between us guys, the premies. That was , IMO the best part of the whole Knowledge thing. A sort of togetherness, oneness experience. So weird that Maha always seemed to resent the social aspects of premiedom which if I look at truthfully were the best part. I remember him many times criticising the chit-chat and socialising at programs. No wonder the whole thing is dying now. Feelin warm and fuzzy, Hal

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Date: Sat, Jul 08, 2000 at 01:12:03 (GMT) From: Monmot Email: None To: Joe Subject: God, those names. Update Message:

Marc Lerner's in L.A. He developed MS and was asked to leave the ashram (big medical bills were verboten). Danny Munter lives in L.A. and is a stockbroker now (remember him from LOTU, giggling away smelling a flower from M's mala?). Last I heard, Deborah Roettinger lives in L.A. also. She lived in Boston, among other places, for a while and was a superior pain in the ass. Gave insecurity new meaning.

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Date: Sat, Jul 08, 2000 at 03:23:28 (GMT) From: Joe Email: None To: Monmot Subject: God, those names. Update Message:

Did Marc Lerner lose his eyesight? Around the time I was leaving, he was really having trouble seeing. It seemed that the MS was really hitting him there. Someone I know said he was an ex and had been doing some kind of 'imaging' training for Vietnam vets. I know it's Danny in LOTU and that really made me laugh. He has written his biography on Enjoyinglife as a 'successful LA stockbroker.' He said that Maharaji was more important that knowledge. I'm not sure that fits into the current EV PR campaign, though. He might have to revise that. Deborah Roettinger was a major prima donna when I knew her. I remember hearing all about the time she got to go to 'the residence' and cook for the living god. I guess she almost had a nervous breakdown but spoke of it in the most glowing of terms. I have no doubt that she and Alan (who is also a major Maharaji groupie) both are somewhere in the inner circle of the most cool and elite of premies somewhere in the Malibu area. That meant a lot to them.

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Date: Sat, Jul 08, 2000 at 15:28:28 (GMT) From: Elaine Email: None To: Joe Subject: God, those names. Update Message:

Deborah's motto - anyone know it?? :)

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Date: Sat, Jul 08, 2000 at 04:01:46 (GMT) From: Monmot Email: None To: Joe Subject: God, those names. Update Message:

Marc's pretty much blind now; he uses one of those blind people canes. He does work, very successfully btw, with Vietnam Vets. He's a good guy. Deborah was so high strung she was strung out. Just made me nervous being around her with all that striving and oneupmanship trying to get next to M. I hated that one-up horsepookey, mainly because I felt like a second class citizen in premieland. I had no big bucks to give, nor possessed any other entree into the haute society of PAMs (thank god), other than my then workaholic tendencies which didn't translate into big $$ in the bank for M.

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Date: Sat, Jul 08, 2000 at 03:31:42 (GMT) From: Jim Email: None To: Joe Subject: 'Elite', yes, but 'cool'? What's THAT like? Message:

What's a 'cool' premie these days? Someone with a few more new-age CDs than the next guy? Someone who once partied with Maharaji? Now that'd be cool, I guess. 'Hey, Lord, you want another one of these?' Or maybe cool is nothing more than having a life story that holds up on close examination for, say, half a second or so. You know, 'Sure, I lived in the ashram but, let's be clear, I was only there on MY terms. I left when I wanted and found a way to make money. Not lots but definitely more than the average premie shmuck.' Yeah, that's cool, I guess. Or maybe it's just having a knowing smirk on your face. Nothing new under the sun once you've been following the Hamster for a few decades. 'You got doubts? Forget about it. I've already had THOSE doubts. Nothing new there.'

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Date: Sat, Jul 08, 2000 at 03:49:52 (GMT) From: Joe Email: None To: Jim Subject: Jim, 'cool premie' can be described in words (nt) Message:

NT

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Date: Sat, Jul 08, 2000 at 03:53:44 (GMT) From: Joe Email: None To: Joe Subject: Oops, I mean it CAN'T be described in words (nt) Message:

nt

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Date: Sat, Jul 08, 2000 at 04:03:34 (GMT) From: Jim Email: None To: Joe Subject: Yeah, you almost got one of these: '?(nt)' (nt) Message:

rrrr

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Date: Fri, Jul 07, 2000 at 22:54:33 (GMT) From: Elaine Email: None To: Joe Subject: God, those names. Message:

Yeah,I 'heard' it was aids - re: Rene. I would never have said last names. Oh well. With 135 people -there were alot of different 'circles'. Saw Erica on the street about 5 years ago. Saw Phil Silberman and Sara within the last 8 years. Wait a minute. Mary Haley and Tom. Mary was skinny with a dark, short hair cut like PeterPan. She was darling and Tom alittle stocky - nice guy.(She also had a slender face - and the best smile :) I'd love to hear about Bill's departure....great gossip. See ya later, Elaine

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Date: Fri, Jul 07, 2000 at 23:07:01 (GMT) From: Joe Email: None To: Elaine Subject: God, those names. Message:

Yeah, you have Mary and Tom right. Both great people. I think they had a couple of kids. Phil and Sara were brother and sister, right? I think they were pretty young, maybe just teenagers when they were at COLL. I have a hard time believing I lived at COLL and later in a bunch of other ashrams turning over all my money, not seeing my family, and all the rest. I just think it's disgraceful that Maharaji just writes off the ashrams, and the damage it caused peoples' lives, as just some Hindu concept that he had nothing to do with, except to abandon. That is such bullshit. It said on the ashram manual that Maharaji wrote it, including the requirements for celibacy and vegetarianism. He also used the slave labor the ashram premies provided for years, as well as the income they produced. Yet, he has never bothered to address the damage he caused. That's what makes me so angry at him. He has no integrity, he has no ability to accept responsbility.

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Date: Fri, Jul 07, 2000 at 01:08:34 (GMT) From: VP Email: None To: Joe Subject: Aspirant's excellent journey Message:

Here are some reasons given by an aspirant for NOT recieving knowlege. It came out of her journey. The whole journey is good (Daneane)but I liked her reasons here because several hit home for me: -Could never love a distant figure I see in video tapes. -Could never worship a mortal -Don't have money to give, and won't float while others do. -I didn't get answers to my questions. -Everything so structured, so secret, for no apparent reason. -How can M hoard so much money? -I can't respect a man who would let others kiss his feet. -I could never be friends with anyone and have to withhold so much. -I could never be so regulated by some organization. -He didn't tell me a thing I hadn't heard before, read before, or just knew. -If he speaks from experience, why does he tell stories of farmers? -If the answers are inside, why the need to do service and see him so much? -Could never go to those videos for the rest of my life. -Can't afford the travel -Good teachers, teach, so their students can go off on their own. -Meditation is good, dependence on M is not. -No one is a perfect master -Premies at video events are weird. -Mileage -Just another set of rules, new names for the same questions, same vagueness for the answers. -Got answers from ex sites and exes, never the ins. Seems too deceiving. -M is buttfuck rich, I can't justify his excesses. -Screening process. -Move to satellite and high price. -Too new age happy feely. -He says childlike... I think that's overly romantic. -He says simple self... I think that's too naive. -Bliss comes from many places, attributing to M is wrong. -Heart and mind work together..why then, do you need 'trust'.

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Date: Fri, Jul 07, 2000 at 05:55:04 (GMT) From: TD Email: None To: VP/Joe Subject: Aspirant's excellent journey Message:

No I don't mind Joe! VP, I think this aspirant list is a very good rundown on what turns people off when they first see M, and I reckon, if I'd gone to see Maharaji cold, in that I wasn't involved and so admiring of a premie, then this could have well been my continued reaction to M. In fact my first video I did respond like this, but unfortunately I trusted and deferred to my partner's interpretation rather than my own - which was the beginning of the end for me maintaining my own initial ideas and reservations about M, as the manipulation and brain-washing then took over. Even with the list above, I think that the most adept premie (as we've seen here) could probably give premie-ism answers to each of those so-called 'doubts' that this aspirant has. The important factor in what makes an aspirant stick with this process, I feel, is the relationship that aspirant has to existing premies, rather than the videos and Maharaji himself.

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Date: Fri, Jul 07, 2000 at 21:51:42 (GMT) From: Lotus Eater Email: None To: TD Subject: Aspirant's excellent journey Message:

That last statement rings so true. In the eighties I had become good friends with two people, one from work and one was a neighbour, we had a lot of interests in common and had a lot of fun together, at some point I told them about M & K. Along comes Rich Neel and off they go. The impression I had at that time of Rich Neel is that he was out with the pixies and needed some serious help, however he was the initiator. They came back from their knowledge session looking mindfucked and dazed. They came wandering in to find me and we sat on the jetty, one on either side. I had nothing to say. Our friendship broke up, their relationships broke up, both moved away from the area and I have no idea where they are. LE

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Date: Fri, Jul 07, 2000 at 10:33:33 (GMT) From: JtF Email: None To: TD, Joe, VP Subject: Aspirant's excellent journey/Thanks Message:

It's threads like this that keep me coming back to this forum. For awhile in the early mid-90's Rawat would have his cult members sit in on the aspirant selection process with him. This thread helps me understand how hassling and rejecting aspirants was/is important in helping(manipulating) the existing slaves into feeling special and therfore 'grateful'. A cult member would think, 'I must be special because I have it while this aspirant who seems to really want K must wait'. If Rawat was really interested in expanding his membership, he would make it easy as it was for most of us in the 70's. One could say he is looking for quality only, yet, there is no evidence which suggests these new western cult members of the 90's are staying in the cult in greater numbers than the victims of the 70's.

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Date: Fri, Jul 07, 2000 at 17:09:58 (GMT) From: Joe Email: None To: JtF Subject: Aspirant's excellent journey/Thanks Message:

Hi JtF, Right, I don't think Maharaji has been any less of a failure in retaining his followers in the 90s as he was in the 70s. After all, I think TD received knowledge in 1995 and Daneane was very recently an 'aspriant,' (well, sort of), and they both eventually saw through it. Moreover, other recent ex-premies have posted that a bunch of people received knowledge in the early to mid 90s, but that those people stopped coming around quite soon after that. I do think, however, that making it hard to receive knowledge just makes it seem more valuable. I mean, it's kind of the idea that if something you buy is expensive it must be better, and if it's really hard to get something, you are less likely to evaluate it objectively after you get it. You also feel like you are a member of an exclusive club. Then, of course, Maharaji starts telling you have you have to be constantly reminded, your mind is distracting you, etc., etc., all as excuses for why one is not having the experience he promised. I mean, it's a cult. Joe

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Date: Fri, Jul 07, 2000 at 16:00:51 (GMT) From: Elaine Email: None To: JtF Subject: JTF Message:

Yes, why does M make it so ridiculously hard to rec K?In your opinion. What could be the purpose? I don't get it. That's why I say he is not a good businessman. There are plenty of ways it could be made easier and thus - he could make a fortune.( As I always say - I don't know one premie that gives M money or ever really did.) So, few receiving k - must mean - no revenues. So it never made sense to me coming here with the exes saying he was so into money---bec if that was true he's so BAD at it. He may have invested well - granted - but,who out there is giving him any money now?? Know one I've ever known ever did. Elaine - And I know the six that rec K here last month haven't given any money.I just don't get it.

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Date: Fri, Jul 07, 2000 at 22:06:31 (GMT) From: A.P. Email: None To: Elaine Subject: Money Message:

I would love to help you get it elaine, all you have to do is listen and keep an open mind: I know several premies that give money on a regular basis. I know one that has an automatic charge on their credit card every month. I know of another person that actually gave M a Rolls Royce. The cash money comes mostly from the older premies. Those who have done so year after year after year. They don't really know any better. Are you aware that that plane your master is flying cost him 30 million. Thats right elaine 30 million. I don't think he made that much in the stock market unless he had a huge chunk of cash in the first place. Gulfstream requires a 2 million dollar deposit. You and your premie friends bought him that plane and help maintain it. You may not have given him any cash. But have you done any of the following: Purchased any videos? Paid the suggested donation at programs lately? How many times over the years have you paid that suggested donation they ask for? And how about all those trinkets and pretty smiling pictures of the Lord. How many of those have you bought? Maybe you've caught one of those nifty satelite events? How many have you watched? You don't actually have to answer those question but Start adding it up Elaine You'd be surprised how much you have given him. Ask your fellow premies to do the same and your eyes will open at the amounts as they quickly add up. Maybe you are not aware of all the warehouses he has stocked full of crap for these events. They use the same stuff over and over again. The stages are built by premie slaves using donated time and materials. So Elaine, I think you can see that he is was and as long as there are premies around like you, he will be a great salesman/businessman. The suggested dontations more than pay for the venues. The venue may cost them approx $2,500 the last program had a suggested donation of $45.00. There were 500 premies. So he netted about 20,000. Than he went and did it in several cities. He made more in a few days work than I made last year! All he had to do was sit in a comfortable chair and talk to a bunch of people that think he is some supreme being. What a joke. I wouldn't think that someone as 'spiritually enlightened' as he is, would need so many cars and rolexes and homes. I would never trust such a materialistic person. I find it all pretty sick. But thats just my opinion. I'm am sure you are a very nice person, I don't mean to sound harsh. However, It is what it is Elaine. A.P.

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Date: Fri, Jul 07, 2000 at 22:30:20 (GMT) From: Elaine Email: None To: A.P. Subject: Money Message:

AP- You weren't harsh. But, I did look at your questions - I've paid $30 in the last three or so years to attend a program someplace.That is the extent of it. That's all I'm saying - he sure is not geting rich off of me or the premies I know. I'm not doubting you,mind you. Good input, Elaine

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Date: Sat, Jul 08, 2000 at 04:10:58 (GMT) From: DV Email: None To: Elaine Subject: Thats bullshit Elaine- I've sat in the money room Message:

at these programs listening to them count the money and discuss the total sales from the EV rooms and the donation boxes. By the way, he alreadt got rich off us us, now his investments are surley working quite nicely by themselves, thankyou.

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Date: Sat, Jul 08, 2000 at 15:33:29 (GMT) From: Elaine Email: None To: DV//Monmot Subject: Thats bullshit Elaine- I've sat in the money room Message:

I now prefer the more polite horsepookey. Thank you very much. ;)

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Date: Sat, Jul 08, 2000 at 16:00:06 (GMT) From: Monmot Email: None To: Elaine Subject: Horsepookey Message:

I like it too. It has a certain je ne sais quoi about it, n-est-ce pas?

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Date: Sat, Jul 08, 2000 at 04:21:26 (GMT) From: Monmot Email: None To: DV Subject: Ah, Yes, The Money Room... Message:

I spent all of Millennium ('73, that is) in the money room (after many a refreshing slumber on the concrete floor of the Peace Plant). :>) While I and a few fellow premies counted the filthy lucre pouring in, Michael Bergman was circling the room having a nervous breakdown trying to figure out how to cover the elephantine expenses incurred from setting up the Natural Gas Expo, er, excuse me, the stage in the Dome. Poor guy, I heard he had a real nervous breakdown post-Houston.

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Date: Sat, Jul 08, 2000 at 04:29:30 (GMT) From: Joe Email: None To: Monmot Subject: Michael Bergman Message:

My, aren't we gossipy???::)) Michael Bergman did have a nervous breakdown in 1979. I was at IHQ in Miami Beach and Michael was head of PR for Elan Vital. Holi Festival was coming and Life Magazine agreed to do a positive article on the event. I guess Michael was really working on this, very excited, and we were all waiting to see that finally, Maharaji was going to get some good, national exposure and the masses were finally going to show up asking for knowlegdge. Well........ The article was a total slam of Maharaji. It had all these color photos of Holi, in the most pejorative light, and the story was really sarcastic and negative. It was a total embarrassment. Also the Miami Herald did a big, very negative expose as well. It was too much for Michael. He had a nervous breakdown and I think they sent him to some small ashram in Michigan to recover. I never heard what happened to him after that.

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Date: Sun, Jul 09, 2000 at 05:39:30 (GMT) From: bill Email: None To: Joe Subject: Michael Bergman Message:

Im sure rawat blasted him but good. THAT is what drove him off the cliff. rawat did that to many people. blasted them with his intense rage.

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Date: Sat, Jul 08, 2000 at 04:43:40 (GMT) From: Monmot Email: None To: Joe Subject: Friday Nite Around The Campfire... Message:

Maybe we should make Friday nite our Lake Chit Chat Radio Show. It's fun catching up on what happened to people, where they went, what they're doing etc. Do you remember Dave Richmond? I think he was initially from Phillie. He gave this satsang once about taking quaaludes and going to a bowling alley to listen to the pins drop that was so funny, I remember it to this day. I have some fabulously fond memories with some of my old premie friends. The friendship factor was one element which made it difficult to leave, and in fact, probably delayed my departure. Luckily, I still have some friends from those days. As for Michael B., I know a couple of people who were close to him and I'll have to ask them if they know what happened to him. I liked him a lot, probably because I felt bad that he was so overloaded. I remember that Holi fiasco (Holi Smokes?) well. I was in a camera store several years ago and came across a Canon brochure, and the picture inside was a picture of Holi!!! Guess the colors were too vibrant to pass up. Who's next?

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Date: Sat, Jul 08, 2000 at 05:04:07 (GMT) From: Joe Email: None To: Monmot Subject: Friday Nite Around The Campfire... Message:

I guess we are the West Coast time zone chat room of the Forum. The name Dave Richmond sounds familiar, but I can't place a face on it. Sure, there were great people who were premies. No doubt about it. In fact, it was the premies I was attracted to when I got involved, not Maharaji. But familiarity kind of bred contempt too. It was one thing to have premie friends, it was another thing to actually live with them, day in and day out. That could be difficult. Plus, being a sincere premie bred serious neurosis and made them do strange things. Back to Deborah Roettinger. I remember when she was selected to be an initiator by Maharaji, she was selected with a bunch of other people from the Boston Ashram, some of whom were equally weird. Maharaji said he was really pissed if he saw on an initiator application that someone had ever moved out of the ashram, as lots of people did in 1976, but the Boston ashram was kept open and people were sent there when other ashrams closed. So, the story was Maharaji was pleased that these people remained renunciate monks, even during 1976, and 'rewarded' them by making a bunch of them initiators. Of course, he dumped all them a few years later, but loyalty and mutual respect is not Maharaji's strong point, nor is, apparently an accurate memory of historical events, including his own words and actions. Wanna trash Booth Dyess and the way he abandoned his wife and kid? He deserves it.

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Date: Sat, Jul 08, 2000 at 05:15:17 (GMT) From: Monmot Email: None To: Joe Subject: Friday Nite Around The Campfire... Message:

I went to Booth's wedding, which I think lasted longer than the marriage. My memory's fuzzy, but I think he left her within weeks, if not days, of getting married. Back then, relationships were considered a prostitution of Divine Love, and if you got involved with someone, or got married, well then, you were on the first leg of going out to get a glass of water, possibly never to return. Ha! I think ole Booth baby 'had' to get married, as in shotgun, because he dropped his wife and in utero child like rabid rats. Lou Schwartz even made a 'national tour' (remember them), disparaging those people who got married (I was one of them). Very intense. Booth always kind of reminded me of David Smith a bit. Along with Deborah Roettinger, I think Jim Colpas became an initiator. Talk about fanatical. He kind of melted down and was homeless for a while, walking the streets muttering aloud.

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Date: Sat, Jul 08, 2000 at 05:25:09 (GMT) From: Joe Email: None To: Monmot Subject: Friday Nite Around The Campfire... Message:

Really, Jim Colpas went nuts? Geez. There was this really short, plump woman, with thick glasses, who also became an initiator. Later, when she got sent to Miami, when I was CC, she broke down crying when I asked her to do a knowledge review. I think I told you that after COLL in the summer of 1976, I was transferred to the Boston Ashram. Still remember the address: 64 Sewall Avenue. Rosie Lee was there. And there was this blonde guy who sort of looked like a Ken doll. I should remember him, because I lived with him in Chicago too, and I think he was even in SF for awhile. Anyhow, he was mucho bizarre. Booth told me about two days after I arrived that he was getting married. The fiance was hanging around the office quite a lot 'doing service.' I found out it was a shotgun wedding. Anyhow, I got sent to Chicago soon after and it wasn't until about a year later that I noticed Booth was, surprise, surprise, single again. When I got sent to Miami, I replaced him as CC in Miami. Booth was totally NOT into being a coordinator anymore. Instead, he went off to 'Travel Lite' to run personal errands for Joe Anctil, like picking up his dry cleaning. I asked him once what happened to the wife and kid and he muttered something about 'grace.'

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Date: Sat, Jul 08, 2000 at 15:47:57 (GMT) From: Elaine Email: None To: Joe Subject: Jeff Steinberg selling shoes in LV Message:

Hey, at least Booth married what's her name - gotta give him credit for giving the child a name,ya know? I didn't see Colpas much after he became an instructor but 'heard' he messed around sexually. When I did see him he was a puppy wanting connection with someone fr the past. Sweet guy.Hope he turned out ok. I didn't think Jeff was bizarre -just sweet,quiet and kind.Pretty unjudgemental -I mean he had a girlfriend on the side for awhile and everything - so to me he was cool. Short woman ---Maryann maybe? Looked like she was frumpy from midwest or something? Used to have health problems so went to Boston for Hippocrates Institute - that the one. Elaine

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Date: Sat, Jul 08, 2000 at 05:31:19 (GMT) From: Monmot Email: None To: Joe Subject: Friday Nite Around The Campfire... Message:

The Ken doll wasn't New Gay, was it? Even Booth's wife probably thought it was grace that he left. What a dip.

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Date: Sat, Jul 08, 2000 at 05:43:19 (GMT) From: Joe Email: None To: Monmot Subject: 'New Gay???' Is that a magazine for homosexuals? Message:

No, I think you meant Newt Gay. No, it wasn't him. I want to say his last name was Schafer, but that isn't right. I wonder whatever happened to Rosie Lee? I heard she was David Smith's roommate in Los Angeles. God, her karma must be fucked. I think she was one of those premies with tons of family money. How about Dot Procter? Very nice person, also from Boston, I think.

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Date: Sat, Jul 08, 2000 at 05:56:32 (GMT) From: Monmot Email: None To: Joe Subject: LOL!!! He's changed his name... Message:

There's a new startup mag for SF. Wasn't Jeff Steinhardt, was it? Rosie is no longer David's roommate. She's doing well actually, as is Dot (who lives in DC). Dot's got a gangbuster career as an artist now...good person. As for Newt saying studying was 'mind,' I think he'd even agree now that he should be shot for shortstopping your academic career. We've discussed this before, and I have to reiterate that the education lost was probably one of the most painful aspects of cultdom and the aspect I've most regretted. It took me a lot of years of attending college at night, while working a full time job, to finally get my degree. But I got the damn thing.

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Date: Sat, Jul 08, 2000 at 06:00:01 (GMT) From: Joe Email: None To: Monmot Subject: Yes, Jeff Steinhardt (sp?) that's it ..and... Message:

Is Dot still a premie? Is Newt? I imagine Rosie still is.

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Date: Sat, Jul 08, 2000 at 06:07:22 (GMT) From: Monmot Email: None To: Joe Subject: Jeff's in Orange County Message:

Newt: I don't think so. But Rosie and Dot, yes.

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Date: Sat, Jul 08, 2000 at 06:09:47 (GMT) From: Joe Email: None To: Monmot Subject: Good place, he looked like a young republican...nt Message:

nt

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Date: Sat, Jul 08, 2000 at 15:53:55 (GMT) From: Elaine Email: None To: Joe Subject: Well now he looks Message:

like death rung over. His hairline has receded big time - but, that's not it -he's still slender, but from hereditary his dark circles around his eyes are shocking.So all combined he looks physically ill. But,as charming and gallant as ever. Even a 'non-premie' friend thought so.

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Date: Sat, Jul 08, 2000 at 06:04:25 (GMT) From: Tonette Email: None To: Joe Subject: Yes she is still a premie Message:

Called my husband to ask if he would be an usher at the last program in Alexandria,VA on father's day!

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Date: Sat, Jul 08, 2000 at 06:08:50 (GMT) From: Monmot Email: None To: Tonette Subject: How about Jon Knight? nt Message:

nt

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Date: Sat, Jul 08, 2000 at 06:02:57 (GMT) From: Susan Email: None To: Joe Subject: hey, I love this whatever happened to stuff Message:

we could have a page for this. We could all list the premies we wonder 'whatever happened to?' and who ever knows could fill in the blanks. ???

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Date: Sat, Jul 08, 2000 at 06:06:04 (GMT) From: Tonette Email: None To: Susan Subject: what ever happened to Grace Wallace? nt Message:

nt

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Date: Sat, Jul 08, 2000 at 06:16:05 (GMT) From: Monmot Email: None To: Tonette Subject: Sounds Familiar...Any Other Last Name? nt Message:

mm

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Date: Sat, Jul 08, 2000 at 05:59:59 (GMT) From: Susan Email: None To: Monmot Subject: but, were you remembering the Holy Name? Message:

yes, I agree. We used to call him 'snoot' gay. But, he did send me to Rome on DLM funds. So he at least was sincere that I should stop taking those courses and be a better premie.

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Date: Sat, Jul 08, 2000 at 06:05:35 (GMT) From: Monmot Email: None To: Susan Subject: Snoot Was Sincere But Not Clear Message:

Or we could have a 'Ralph Edwards' page: This Is Your Life...

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Date: Sat, Jul 08, 2000 at 06:09:29 (GMT) From: Susan Email: None To: Monmot Subject: there are lots of people I wonder about. Message:

yes, I think Snoot was sincere. He was trying to help me not be seduced by the dark side of the study of English literature when the LOTU was on the planet what did that stuff matter. It would be really easy to do this whatever happened to. It might eat up space though. All you would have to do is start a new post with every name you were wondering about. Well, not even, a whatever happened to thread...and just start listing names.

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Date: Sat, Jul 08, 2000 at 06:12:41 (GMT) From: Monmot Email: None To: Susan Subject: Definitely a Space Chewer, But Veddy Interesting Message:

Now you've got me wondering where my ex-husband is.

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Date: Sat, Jul 08, 2000 at 14:16:53 (GMT) From: Katie Email: None To: Monmot Subject: LOL, Monmot Message:

Must be nice to not know :)!

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Date: Sat, Jul 08, 2000 at 20:31:47 (GMT) From: Monmot Email: None To: Katie Subject: Took A Lonnng Time, But Yes, Very Nice :-) nt Message:

ggg

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Date: Sat, Jul 08, 2000 at 05:39:22 (GMT) From: Susan Email: None To: Monmot Subject: Friday Nite Around The Campfire... Message:

Hi you two!

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Date: Sat, Jul 08, 2000 at 05:37:52 (GMT) From: Joe Email: None To: Monmot Subject: More Dirt on Booth Dyess Message:

Nona Vickers was a wonderful person who I knew in San Antonio, she had a little boy, named Sky, but for some reason Nona lived in the Houston ashram, even with Sky. Anyhow, I guess Booth had been community coordinator in Houston and Nona told me she walked through the satsang hall one day and saw one of the ashram sisters giving Booth a blow job. Nona said that was why Booth got her sent to San Antonio, along with the sister who gave him the blow job. This would have been about 1975. I think her name was Babs Johnson, who later was arrested for writing bad checks to cover her boyfriend's drug money shortages, but that is another story. None of this, neither the blow jobs nor the lack of celibacy in the ashram (both in Houston and Boston) seems to have prevented Booth's meteoric rise in Elan Vital. I understand he is now the PR person for Elan Vital and wrote those brilliant instructions to premies about what to say to the press. (If you haven't read them, you should, they are hysterical. Brian put them on the ex-premie website.)

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Date: Sat, Jul 08, 2000 at 05:40:48 (GMT) From: Susan Email: None To: Joe Subject: More Dirt on Booth Dyess Message:

Did either of you know Shelley Klavans? He was a nice guy.

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Date: Sat, Jul 08, 2000 at 05:47:58 (GMT) From: Susan Email: None To: Susan Subject: And I know I have told you both how Message:

Newt Gay told me my honors courses in high school were 'mind'. Imagine the editing help I would not be in need of if I had ignored him!

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Date: Sat, Jul 08, 2000 at 05:47:55 (GMT) From: Monmot Email: None To: Susan + Joe Subject: More Dirt on Booth Dyess Message:

Howdy, Susan, pull up a log, put a marshmallow on a stick, roast it over the open fire, and join us in Lake Chit Chat (too bad Lake Woebegone is taken--much more apt). Didn't know Shelley K. Booth's a piece of work. He should've written a manual on keeping it zipped. Not only does he transfer the witness, he transfers the 'blower' too. Jeez, that reminds me of some of the jerks I worked for who fired me when I refused their advances.

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Date: Sat, Jul 08, 2000 at 05:54:31 (GMT) From: Joe Email: None To: Monmot Subject: More Dirt on Booth Dyess Message:

The last time I saw Nona was in about 1981. I was still nominally a premie, but she was really out of it. When I mentioned Booth, she said for me to tell him, in no uncertain terms: TELL BOOTH I HATE HIM!!! So Booth, if you are reading this, which I think you are supposed to do as part of your job, I never got around to delivering Nona's message until now.

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Date: Sat, Jul 08, 2000 at 05:50:39 (GMT) From: Susan Email: None To: Monmot Subject: LOL LOL...thanks, when I was a premie I always Message:

spurned the marshmallows as they had gelatin ( horse hooves) in them. I never knew Booth but by name and reputation.

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Date: Sat, Jul 08, 2000 at 05:59:56 (GMT) From: Monmot Email: None To: Susan Subject: Horse Hooves? That's Why Knowledge Didn't Work nt Message:

ggg

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Date: Sat, Jul 08, 2000 at 05:56:42 (GMT) From: Joe Email: None To: Susan Subject: Booth's reputation preceded him..... Message:

But I think by only about 3 inches. ::))

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Date: Fri, Jul 07, 2000 at 21:34:08 (GMT) From: SB Email: None To: Elaine Subject: Elaine: You know it all! ROFL Message:

You haven't had the opportunity to change your mind yet, eh? Maharaji is very succesfull as making money and all the posessions he acquired since he left India are proof of that. So, few receiving k - must mean - no revenues. So it never made sense to me coming here with the exes saying he was so into money---bec if that was true he's so BAD at it. He may have invested well - granted - but,who out there is giving him any money now?? Know one I've ever known ever did. He doesn't received his money in public, so? What do you know? I happen to know quite FEW people who still sends money to him. An example: A lady from 'my community' named Marolyn L. sends no less, most of the time more (unless she was lying and I have no reason to believe she did) than $100 monthly, PLUS, she buys videos all the time. How do I know this? Because I was the video librarian she donated them when she got tired of listening the same and she also donated two plastic binders with 12 cassettes of Maharaji. Also, even that I cannot prove this, there were indicaciones from Elan Vital to try to handle only cash, until Elan Vital 'looked' at something and requested that all communities open checking accounts. What am I insinuating? Money laundering. His organization is very succesful in providing $$$$ for the Lord. Any person looking at the big picture can notice his fortune. Investments? We'll see that later, hopelly. There is a premie whi his initials are KC, who sends money so much that on September he is going to Malibu to do service 'for his Lord', his own words. $$$$$$Were you silly blind noticing how many people went crazy buying his shit and that at programs when Visions sold his 'stuff' never gave receipts for those sales when they were made with cash??? What happened to the cash? Was there any investigation done that stop them to date to control how many videos or trinkets are made and how many sold? YOU NEVER SAW ANYBODY BUYING SOMETHING? Or dropping money in the 2' boxes all over the hall? He does good, recognize it Elaine! You say ' I just don't get it'! I don't blame you: The horse blinders you have on can be seeing from everywhere. Get the point? Is a waste of time to try to get serious with you but I have to say something once more about the estupidity you chose to post here. You are a premie at heart and you are bored, coming here like if this is just another forum. The Lord is here, Elaine!! You must wake up to that!!

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Date: Fri, Jul 07, 2000 at 19:01:08 (GMT) From: Rob Email: None To: Elaine Subject: Spin on this. Message:

Come on Elaine, are you really that disparaging of M, or that out of touch? EV budget for last year:- approx $17 million. Monthly pledges, long term low-interest premie loans, the Millionaires Club (you know, the ones that get invited to 'special' events because their annual donation exceeds $100,000), that little extra something premies are asked for at events, profits from Divine merchandising .....the list goes on. I think you're a fucking spin doctor Elaine, and I'm on your case now.

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Date: Fri, Jul 07, 2000 at 22:00:51 (GMT) From: Elaine Email: None To: Rob Subject: Spin on this.Joe a question Message:

I don't actually know what a spin doctor is -but I will before the night is over. There's no way I could believe EV has income of $17 million!!! By selling VIDEOS!!!! Who are these rich premies??? They must be from other countries. I don't know any of them obviously. I trust Joe -Joe, is that a fact -$17 million? Does that mean a year?? Elaine

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Date: Sat, Jul 08, 2000 at 04:28:06 (GMT) From: DV Email: None To: Elaine Subject: Elaine, the money received at the programs is not Message:

as much as the money received leading up to and during the program from external sources. Seems the lord still has many admirers.

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Date: Fri, Jul 07, 2000 at 22:50:07 (GMT) From: Joe Email: None To: Elaine Subject: I honestly don't know. Message:

I've been away from the workings of Elan Vital for many years. People who have been more recently involved than me would have to tell you what EVs income is, and what Maharaji's income is, but I would fathom it is substantial. I can tell you some things from when I was involved. 1. In the late 70s, everytime Maharaji gave darshan, he netted about a quarter of a million dollars. He also netted a lot of expensive gifts like jewelry and watches, which piled up in a warehouse filled with all kinds of other expensive gifts that he couldn't possibly ever use. On occasion, I heard him speak of giving darshan almost entirely in financial terms -- as a way to make money. 2. On more than one occasion, we raised about a quarter million dollars in cash to pay for the Boeing 707 rennovation -- this was when there was this supposed 'emergency' need for cash. 3. Again, talking late 70s, to this was a lot more money then, but we would often charge $70 to $100 for somebody to get into a big festival in Miami. Since we'd often have 12,000 to 15,000 people, we netted well over a million dollars. This does not count the money made off the food service, sale of trinkets, the money the cult travel agency made off the planes and hotels (remember, we had to use the cult travel agency and every community had a 'travel agent') nor did it include the money donated at darshan. 4. I know in the ashrams I lived in, we donated 10% of our income to Elan Vital, and another 10% to Maharaji directly, month, after month, after month. 5. We were constantly being hit up for more money for stuff Maharaji wanted, like a new residence, land around the residence, a new luxury car, a new plane, a helicopter, a helicopter pad, etc., etc. 6. As a community coordinator for Elan Vital, I was told by the President of Elan Vital, to tell the members of my community to take out loans, go into debt, or whatever was necessary to raise money for some particular project M wanted, mostly for a new plane. I actually feel very guilty about this -- I know some premies had very little money and suffered from giving more than they could to Maharaji because they believed he was the incarnation of god and they really had no choice if they wanted to be true devotees. It was a lot of money. Maharaji wasted most of it. He could spend money like water. He wore $6,000 suits. He took vacations in Bali that cost $15,000 PER DAY. The need for more money was insatiable, and from what I understand that hasn't really changed. I'm sure his finances are more under control now. I'm sure he took at least some of the millions that have been given to him and invested them. After all, Elan Vital says he is a 'successful investor.' I gotta say though, if someone gave me millions of dollars I could be a 'successful investor' too.

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Date: Fri, Jul 07, 2000 at 19:11:12 (GMT) From: cq Email: None To: Rob Subject: EV's budget: 17 million bucks last year? Phew ... Message:

EV's budget: $17 million last year? Phew ... You sound like you're in the know. As one who is/was, could you tell me this Rob: how does anyone get access to the (supposedly public-access) figures of EV's finances? Do we have to turn up in person on a specific date and time - and location - to get to see them?

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Date: Fri, Jul 07, 2000 at 22:06:39 (GMT) From: SB Email: None To: cq Subject: EV's budget: 17 million bucks last year? Phew ... Message:

Do charities/churches respect the Freedom of Information Act and have to respond when somebody enquires about their finances and how their money is used? Jim? Anybody knows? Under that law do WE have the right to know and follow those numbers? Hi cq!

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Date: Sat, Jul 08, 2000 at 14:11:31 (GMT) From: cq Email: None To: SB and Joey Subject: EV's budget: 17 million bucks last year? Phew ... Message:

Hi SB! I think it varies from country to country. The UK Charity Commission publish this: 'New accounting and reporting rules for charities came into force on 1 March 1996. Charities have long had an obligation to keep accounting records and prepare accounts, but for the first time there is now a detailed statutory framework for preparing the accounts and annual reports. The new regulations are designed to meet the need for public accountability for the large resources held by charities without placing unnecessary burden on trustees. This is why the requirements are far fewer for small charities. All charities have to keep accounting records, prepare annual accounts and make them available to the public on request. In other respects, the rules differ for charities according to the size of their income or expenditure.' More at http://www.charity-commission.gov.uk

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Date: Sat, Jul 08, 2000 at 01:48:37 (GMT) From: Joey Email: None To: SB Subject: EV's budget: 17 million bucks last year? Phew ... Message:

Hi SB, The Answer to your question is ...NO. Unfortunately the Freedom of Information Act is not applicable in that regard. In the US, non profit organizations have to file a form 990 with the IRS, which is designed to make them more accountable to the public in terms of their financial info. But there again, churches or religious organizatins are exempt, and therefor EV does not have to file a form 990 or any other forms. They can if they want to, but they're under no obligation to do so. Sorry, I know this isn't what you wanted to hear, but that's just the way it is.

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Date: Fri, Jul 07, 2000 at 19:21:39 (GMT) From: Rob Email: None To: cq Subject: It 's who you know;) Message:

You either have to know people who know, or send in a check for a hundred grand;) Saw a program on the History chanel the other day about Hitler's Chief of Security (von something-or-other). Turns out he saw his boss for what he really was and was essentially a double-agent for most of the war. He convinced Franco not to let German troops through Spain to attack Gibralter, tipped off the allies about the Panza defences around Normandy etc etc. Ended up being hung slowly with piano wire for his troubles!! Just goes to show, you can never trust even your top people sometimes. Which has absolutely nothing to do with your question, or the reason some people prefer to remain anonymous.

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Date: Fri, Jul 07, 2000 at 19:29:55 (GMT) From: cq Email: None To: Rob Subject: Thank you Mr Anderson (ooops ... shhhhhhh...) nt Message:

Thank you Mr Anderson (ooops ... shhhhhhh...) nt

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Date: Fri, Jul 07, 2000 at 19:53:38 (GMT) From: Rob Email: None To: cq Subject: Oh gee, thanks for outing me Chris Giles!! nt Message:

nt

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Date: Fri, Jul 07, 2000 at 20:26:37 (GMT) From: cq Email: None To: Rob Subject: they'll never believe it! (nor did I) (nt) Message:

they'll never believe it! (nor did I) (nt) lurve those archives ...

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Date: Fri, Jul 07, 2000 at 17:33:35 (GMT) From: JtF Email: None To: Elaine Subject: JTF/rawat's source of income Message:

I think rawat realizes that as far as expanding his number of victims that it just is not going to happen...yet he must look like he wants that so as to make things seem real and alive to his current willing victims. His revenue source seems to be in squeezing more out of these current victims. Why should they have to spend part of their disposable income on traveling to see him when via satelite he can get that as well...expect lots of these made for tv events!!

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Date: Fri, Jul 07, 2000 at 18:51:34 (GMT) From: Elaine Email: None To: JtF Subject: JTF/rawat's source of income Message:

Yes, good point,M 'appeares' to be working so hard to spread k. I hear that ALOT fr 2 premies.He is travelling SO much. I said to them - 'You really think so?' Bec, I for one do not think 120 in LA last month was alot of people considering ALL the Midwest and Westcoast. They said nothing,BTW.

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Date: Fri, Jul 07, 2000 at 17:23:09 (GMT) From: Joe Email: None To: Elaine Subject: Why knowledge is 'hard' to get. Message:

Actually, if you think about it, it isn't like it's that hard to get knowledge, it's more that are no definite guideposts that tell an aspirant he or she is 'ready.' So, the aspirant is left praying to Maharaji to please grace them with knowledge, because there isn't anything in particular one can do to get it. Even after doing the 6 months of videos or whatever, there is this question and answer procedure and an arbitrary selection process, during which the aspirant is supposed to act like he or she has no doubts, has had all questions answered, and is even devoted to Maharaji, and since nobody knows how to do that, they just try to conform to the premie nowm. This is where the cult programming really happens. It's where one learns the lesson one must practice as a premie, to at least pretend to have no doubts and to at least act devoted. And as we know, if you practice that enough, it becomes automatic and you actually believe it. This is what a cult does, and it's why you have to actually get out of the cult before you can even see it. It becomes very ingrained. I know it did in me, and it took being out of the cult for awhile before I even saw the enormity of the programming I had been subjected to in Maharaji's cult. Another reason that knowledge is difficult to get, in my opinion, is about money. First, if knowledge was given freely, it is more likely that people would reveal the techniques to others and Maharaji would lose his gig. Second, according to what I have heard about EV, although only 10% of Maharaji's followers are in the USA, the USA provides 90% of the donations. If only a few thousand people are giving money, but if they are giving enough money, because they are the 'fanatic' devotees, you can raise sizeable money. For example, if just 4,000 people each have 'automatic' deductions from their credit cards each month (which is Elan Vital's preferred donation procedure), in the amount of only $50, that amounts to $2.4 million a year. Add to that the money made off selling trinkets at programs, the Visions catalog, videos, satellite feeds, etc., and not even counting the millions sent to Maharaji directly by his fanatic devotees, plus the money made from cult businesses like Amtext, and you are talking lots of money. For that, Maharaji needs really devoted people, and the more exclusive and 'special' they feel, the more likely they are to give money. Keep in mind that Maharaji has people like Yoram Weiss, whose major job seems to be hitting up the 'students' for donations to Maharaji and to Elan Vital. My theory is that if knowledge was given away freely, Maharaji would lose a lot of those people, because they would no longer feel as special.

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Date: Fri, Jul 07, 2000 at 18:47:18 (GMT) From: Elaine Email: None To: Joe Subject: Why knowledge is 'hard' to get. Message:

Very interesting - the clearest post yet on the subject. I was amazed by the $50 x 4,000 ----I don't think it would be quite that much - maybe $30 x 2000 ---but, that's bec I don't know premies that give anything. But,still I see what you mean and the logic. I still think he could be marketing so much better like Landmark does for example. I will be interested in the comments ,say, 6 months fr now on the 2 new premies I know personally in my town the rec'd K last month. (One is coming for a barbecue tonight - she's a fr of a friend.) I heard if she got even a hint of 'fellowship' she'd be outta here. Elaine

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Date: Sun, Jul 09, 2000 at 02:20:04 (GMT) From: VP Email: None To: Elaine Subject: Elaine, Maharaji has money Message:

Elaine, Do you get EV's full color mail order catalog? I have a good friend who owns a mail order catalog. She makes a very nice living off of her catalog alone. She doesn't do satellite broadcasts, programs, donations and doesn't have a religious institution tax write off status like Elan Vital does. I am not against someone having money--but I do object to some of the ways that Maharaji has made his. I'm always floored when a premie thinks Maharaji doesn't have money. That's just not the truth. Have you seen the floor plans of M's house that are on this site?

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Date: Fri, Jul 07, 2000 at 19:24:56 (GMT) From: Hal Email: None To: Elaine Subject: He's doing something right Message:

Hi Elaine, You have mentioned before how if he was only in it for the money he surely could do it a lot better. I've thought that way myself. However I think that he is probably much more clever than we can perceive. The TM movement charge a person one weeks wages (they used to anyway) for a simple mantra like keyring,I ching, ay ung or some such thing, but that is a one off payment. I think that M is perhaps on to a much better thing. I hear from some exes that they worked out their donations, over the years they were involved , at around 30-100,000 $ !!!!!! I always thyought that I never gave that much money but if I added it up it would be still a considerable amount in over 20yrs. I worked with no salary for about a year. At one time I remember that program entrances were far fom free, I think that 100$ wasn't uncommon for registration at many programs I attended! I bought videos and photos occassionaly and now and again made a small cash donation in darshan. Even a skinflint over a period of years gives a fair amount without even noticing. ElaineI thinkhe is a very clever businessman indeed, if you really think about it. For someone with a few 'fast food' raja yoga techniques to sell he is astounding in his business acumen. He convinced us that we were special, he was more special , and the Knowledge was priceless. Clever little Indian businessman, Oh yes indeed! Hal

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Date: Fri, Jul 07, 2000 at 14:14:14 (GMT) From: Katie Email: None To: JtF Subject: Aspirant's excellent journey/Thanks Daneane Message:

It's Daneane's journey, and I agree that it's very good (and worth reading in its entirety. (BTW, JtF, I might owe you an e-mail - if so, I am sorry, have been terrible about answering anyone lately.)

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Date: Fri, Jul 07, 2000 at 20:43:04 (GMT) From: Helen Email: None To: Katie Subject: Go Daneane Message:

Thanks for the info, that Daneane wrote that journey--I'll read it now. Katie I saw your question regarding my computer. I tried to post on an answer on the old basement computer but it wouldn't let me post (that computer is old and decrepit, you know it's like 2 years old--ha ha) Our newer computer is sorta fixed but it still takes a long time to load. I am wkg full-time now, and can't come here much anymore, but it's good to check in and see what's going on! Love helen

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Date: Fri, Jul 07, 2000 at 00:14:54 (GMT) From: Keith Email: None To: Everyone Subject: Does Knowledge work? Message:

Having read some posts in a recent thread about 'K' I felt it timely to express about some of my experiences and understanding. In the 16 years of practicing K I also meditated in other ways too. This was breaking one of the golden rules, of course. That one should not mix and match techniques. Oh well, I'm just a naughty wayward boy. But at least I developed a type of comparative understanding based on these different techniques. I benifited and still do,(when I meditate) from all these techniques. I never found K to be superior overall. It has all been a bit like tasting different spirits. What do I prefer? Brandy? Rum? Port? It depends on the occassion. And perhaps on my mood. Therefore the emphasis put on K by Maharaji and premies is ok up to a point but not when it is claimed as the bees knees of techniques. It is one set of techniques among many. Knowledge as technique is finite. Knowledge as experience defies attempts to measure because all meditation techniques aim to 'take one' beyond the realm of the measurable. In other words, for me , meditation is about experiencing, feeling and realising rather than intellectually understanding. It is about Consciousness. Some here will strongly disagree with me, but I make a clear distinction between Consciousness and the 'contents' of Consciousness. The 'contents come and go and are subject to continual change and modification. Consciousness Itself is not changable. It is a 'Given'. It is constant. It is empty and yet aware. Either one realises 'That' or not. It is 'That' experience for me, that is the primary purpose of any meditation technique. Not the only purpose but the primary one. So getting back to K. The techniques of K are good. But I don't like all the paraphanalia that goes along with them. As an ex I could say, why not eat the lollies and throw away the wrappers. Or try any other lollies if they are to your taste. I guess lollies are lollies and wrappers are wrappers, no matter what factory they derive from. Nowadays I do my own mish mash of 'ways' to go within and make That deeper connection. The techniques of K are a part of a pot pouri of 'ways' there at my disposal if I choose to utilise them. When I don't practice any inward concentration I do suffer the consequences. Of that I have no doubt.

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Date: Fri, Jul 07, 2000 at 13:19:37 (GMT) From: Jerry Email: None To: Keith Subject: Does Knowledge work? Message:

In other words, for me , meditation it's about experiencing, feeling and realising rather than intellectually understanding. It is about Consciousness. What's all this talk about meditation being about consciousness? You'd think that consciousness didn't exist without it. Baloney.

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Date: Sat, Jul 08, 2000 at 01:06:49 (GMT) From: Keith Email: None To: Jerry Subject: Does Knowledge work? Message:

Being conscious. It's about BEING CONSCIOUS. Is my dog conscious? Yes. Is my dogs state of consciousness the same as Jerry's? I hope not. Do all human beings have the same experience of consciousness? God no! My dog is conscious without meditation. So what? What is consciousness? That's the problem Jerry. What do you mean by consciousness? Might differ from my understanding. The connection between meditation and consciousness is so obvious to me. Not to you. And you say nothing about the distiction between consciousness and the 'contents' of consciousness. Is that destinction meaningless for you? And what I mean by meditation is something more than just doing a bunch of techniques. There are people who I know that claim they never meditate. Even don't believe in it. But who I perceive as being very meditative. I mean by 'meditation being about consciousness' that there is a qualitative condition of consciousness that is naturally meditative.

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Date: Sat, Jul 08, 2000 at 09:13:04 (GMT) From: Jerry Email: None To: Keith Subject: Does Knowledge work? Message:

Is my dog conscious? Yes. How do you know? He might just look like he is (if it's a she, apologies). Scientists are still debating the question. If consciousness is the child of the human neocortex, there's a good chance that your dog ISN'T conscious. What is consciousness? That's the problem Jerry. What do you mean by consciousness? Might differ from my understanding. Consciousness is the ability to be aware, of feelings, of sounds, of light and dark, of thought, of anything, even of consciousness, itself. Does that jive with your understanding? And you say nothing about the distiction between consciousness and the 'contents' of consciousness. Is that destinction meaningless for you? Can one exist without the other? There has to be some kind of sensory input, or some kind of stimulation of the central nervous system for consciousness to exist. You're just a believer, for no good reason, that consciousness is an entity separate from the material realm, and self sustaining. I don't share your belief. It's an ancient misunderstanding due to a lack of knowledge on brain chemistry and the central nervous system. One of these days, scientists are going to put it together and determine just what part of the central nervous system is required for consciousness to exist. On that day, it's going to create quite a stir, as much as the theory of evolution has. A bold prediction? I don't think so. And I think it's going to happen in our lifetime. The connection between meditation and consciousness is so obvious to me. Not to you. When you meditate you're just training your consciousness on a specific point. Big deal. You know what I use to do when I was a kid, long before I heard of meditation? In use to stare at the first hand (is that the big one, that's the one I mean) of the clock, just watching it move, ever so slowly, with no other thought in my mind. I found it relaxing. Was I being more conscious? I don't think so. I was just focusing my consciousness. ...there is a qualitative condition of consciousness that is naturally meditative. I'll go along with this. If you're focused on something, I'd say it's fair enough to say you're in a meditative state. Same thing, in my book.

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Date: Fri, Jul 07, 2000 at 04:07:19 (GMT) From: bill Email: None To: Keith Subject: Does Knowledge work? Message:

'consiousness is empty yet aware...either one realises that or not'. You make statements that are said with all the assurance of fact, and you dont see where that is kind of insulting to your reader. Of course you would never MEAN to do that:) Also, the idea that 'conciousness is unchangable' is just a echo of someone else's guess. That is another non fact. 'all meditation attempts to take one beyond the realm of the measurable'. How very vague and surely should be a beacon for those that are scientifically inclined. But, when you look at the words and deeds of those that pitch that sort of endevour, you end up with deciet! Dont ask me why, although I do have a guess. Since we cant measure it, it is the perfect way to your own personal domination trip over others. 'I claim to have gotten somewhere in the measureless beyond. You cant prove me wrong, and because I have been there, my actions here are not judgeable by you. the measureless thing is useing me now to teach you. You cant get there? well, YOUR FAULT! You still are faulty? Imperfect? plagued with pesky human nature? You are not doing the practice right. You said you have no doubt that 'When I dont practice inner concentration I suffer the consequences' If so it would be true for all of us wouldnt it? When you watch tv your mind isnt bugging you with thoughts usually. But at least you get to hear something and see something and maybe feelsomething. Looking inside you see nothing, hear nothing, and feel what?

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Date: Fri, Jul 07, 2000 at 05:09:01 (GMT) From: Keith Email: None To: bill Subject: Does Knowledge work? Message:

This is the problem as I see it Bill. I cannot prove to anyone any experience I am having. Whether or not an experience is real or imaginary can never be proven. If I am in pain, for example, how do you know that I am ? I could be faking it. I could be self deluded. And not all experiences are scientifically measurable. I do experience what I describe. Even though the description is flavoured by my particular way of expressing myself. If you don't believe this to be so, so be it! It's too simple. Consciousness in its primary 'mode'of aware silence is self evident. For you not. Ok.

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Date: Sat, Jul 08, 2000 at 11:34:27 (GMT) From: bill Email: None To: Keith Subject: Does Knowledge work? Message:

Well, Kieth, if you said in your post that it was your experience that conciousness was unchangable, that would have been different. I dont know if my response was critical, if so, that is not what I want. It is more an attempt to poke around at what where the line is between what we are echoing of what we have heard and what weknow from our own life. Having been upset at the series of recent revisionist statements by maharaji's org and his own statements, I probably was too critical of your comments again, sorry about that. I know you are a good guy, although you know, it IS just a guess about the nature of conciousness itself. A popular notion, but not agreed upon by even a majority. It is part of the eastern religious concept. I very much disagree with that idea even thought I have not gotten into why in this post. Have a good saturday!

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Date: Fri, Jul 07, 2000 at 05:14:28 (GMT) From: gerry Email: None To: Keith Subject: Does Knowledge work? Message:

Actually Keith, your 'experience' COULD be measured and indeed has been. There is lots of studies on meditation and the brain. And there's lots of techie gimmicks out there which will give your brain the meditation experience in a New York minute, no 'practising' involved.

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Date: Fri, Jul 07, 2000 at 03:45:00 (GMT) From: gErRy Email: None To: Keith Subject: I don't each trucks... Message:

As an ex I could say, why not eat the lorries and throw away the wrappers. Or try any other lorries if they are to your taste. I guess lollies are lorries and lollies need wrappers, no matter what factory they waste.

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Date: Fri, Jul 07, 2000 at 04:38:35 (GMT) From: gErRy Email: None To: gErRy Subject: I don't each trucks v2 sounds better, say it aloud Message:

As an ex I could say, why not eat lorries and throw wrappers away? Or try any other lorries if they're to your taste. I guess lollies are lorries and lollies need wrappers, no matter what factory they waste. Oh yes, much better...

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Date: Fri, Jul 07, 2000 at 05:13:49 (GMT) From: Keith Email: None To: gErRy Subject: trucks and clucks and chicks in a flurry... Message:

some times Gerry is picky and sometimes funny... lorries and lollies and dollies .. all wrapped in words.. and other silly jumbles meaning nothing at all... is this your type of communication Gerry... having fun???

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Date: Fri, Jul 07, 2000 at 03:06:25 (GMT) From: bill Email: None To: Keith Subject: Does your breath 'work'? (nt) Message:

dfy

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Date: Fri, Jul 07, 2000 at 03:23:29 (GMT) From: Keith Email: None To: bill Subject: if my breath didn't work.. Message:

...I'd be dead!

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Date: Fri, Jul 07, 2000 at 02:20:44 (GMT) From: Jim Email: None To: Keith Subject: Why not put on a workshop, Keith? Message:

Keith, You've got a message to get out there and I'm just not sure if this website's the right vehicle. Think about it: no one here's asking for your advice and few, if any, exes want to talk with you at all. It's just not the right market, you know? But I'll tell you, I know a couple of premies right here in Canada, my home and native land, who've set themselves up as new-age 'advisors'. They've got regular ads in new-age snake oil catalogues, they charge money, the whole nine yards. Guys like Chris Moon or Alex Perlman come to mind but I bet there are more. Really, Keith, have you ever thought of doing this? You don't need to know anything -- indeed, I'd expect the less, the better -- and you can slice a bit of Maharaji into the mix however you wish for seasoning. Want some help with a web site? There's always Chris Dickey. You should be making money at this, Keith, instead of just giving it away.

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Date: Fri, Jul 07, 2000 at 01:35:48 (GMT) From: Elaine Email: None To: Keith Subject: Does Knowledge work? Message:

As I said below I think the techs of K are a practical way to turn your senses inward by blocking the 'outside' senses.Irregardless of M. What other techniques have you found,Keith,and where did you find out about them. I'm guessing I'll be hearing about energy,chakras and maybe kundalini from you?( I'm just betting with myself.) Thanks, Elaine

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Date: Fri, Jul 07, 2000 at 05:21:11 (GMT) From: Rob Email: None To: Elaine Subject: Dear Elaine Message:

Not exactly 'Who wants to be a Millionaire' material but a question I've been posing premies recently (you did say you were one, right?). Anyway give it a shot: Dear Premies: Are you proud of the way you are representing your Lord and Master here, and how do you think he would feel if he knew who you were and what posts you had written? Have you considered sending a summary of your involvement here to ELK Expressions? Why not? Surely you are doing His bidding and aiming only to serve Him? Do your premie friends know you are here? Does your husband/boyfriend/offspring? It's kind of my stock question, but might make you think a bit. Don't worry, I got more - they make good seeds for discussion I think, which is after all why we are here on the forum, right?

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Date: Fri, Jul 07, 2000 at 15:43:07 (GMT) From: Jim Email: None To: Rob Subject: Great question, Rob. What of it, premies? (nt) Message:

gggggg

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Date: Fri, Jul 07, 2000 at 03:21:38 (GMT) From: Keith Email: vayukeith@netscape.net To: Elaine Subject: Does Knowledge work? Message:

Wow Elaine, do you expect me to tell you other techniques for free after Jim's wonderful guidence? Indeed I am considering hiring Jim as my P.R agent. Come on Elaine. He could manage both of us. New Millenium Enlightenment. I can just see it now. On a more serious note, how about e-mailing me? As Guru Jimji has rightly said, I'm wasting my precious time sharing this info here.

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Date: Fri, Jul 07, 2000 at 15:44:31 (GMT) From: Elaine Email: None To: Keith Subject: Does Knowledge work? Message:

Keith, When I write to someone - in my mind no one else exists. I'm sorry Jim got brought into the equation - I don't read his posts generally. But, it's ok - I've got plenty of info on other techniques. I was just being curious.No biggy. Regards, Elaine

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Date: Fri, Jul 07, 2000 at 16:24:40 (GMT) From: Jim Email: None To: Elaine Subject: You want the truth? You can't HANDLE the truth! Message:

Normally, I don't read yoru posts either, Elaine. I find them too confronting, you know? Have a nice day!

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Date: Fri, Jul 07, 2000 at 19:11:06 (GMT) From: Rob Email: None To: Jim Subject: I think they are worth reading Jim Message:

Very subtle spin-doctoring and ingratiation going on. Low profile stuff, worthy of both our attentions.

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Date: Fri, Jul 07, 2000 at 22:24:19 (GMT) From: SB Email: None To: Rob Subject: I can say that I do 'enjoy' reading Elaine posts!! Message:

NOT!! But: Look at the good thread generated by her 'sincere' statements about 'our' Lord's income. Great opportunity for us. I advice her to read her posts before submitting them, she haven't taken the advice yet. Good for us: More opportunity to exposse MORE dirt about Rawat!! Keep it up Ealine!! PS: She doesn't know how to talk honestly yet; maybe tomorrow...

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Date: Fri, Jul 07, 2000 at 19:14:04 (GMT) From: cq Email: None To: Jim and Rob Subject: and (in their own sweet way) juicier than ELK's nt Message:

and (in their own sweet way) juicier than ELK's nt

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Date: Fri, Jul 07, 2000 at 04:25:03 (GMT) From: gErRy Email: None To: Keith Subject: Don't cast your pearls before swine... Message:

(snicker)

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Date: Fri, Jul 07, 2000 at 12:57:18 (GMT) From: Felix the ... Email: The Wonderful ,Wonderful........ To: gErRy Subject: If Keith worked he wouldn't spend so much.... Message:

Fucking time HERE!!!!

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Date: Thurs, Jul 06, 2000 at 22:32:33 (GMT) From: Lotus Eater Email: None To: Everyone Subject: The Emperors Clothes Message:

The thing that I find extremely distasteful about premies, regardless of how good or likeable they are, and despite acknowledging the brainwashing aspect, is that THEY ARE THE EMPERORS CLOTHING. Every person who believes in him is clothing him. I remember him describing the triangle once in Brisbane. He said, and I paraphrase: 'Take away the master and you have a religion, take away the knowledge and you have a discussion, take away the student and you have the worlds best kept secret'. Now just what secret is that, Maharaji? I think you should do some research into mental health, because you are going to need some help when you stand naked before us. Signed, Lesley, an ex lotus eater who is now clothing herself,thankfully.

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Date: Fri, Jul 07, 2000 at 09:58:52 (GMT) From: Hal Email: None To: Lotus Eater Subject: Absolutely right on LE (nt) Message:

sdfg

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Date: Thurs, Jul 06, 2000 at 17:03:36 (GMT) From: Tonette Email: netguest42@yahoo.com To: Everyone Subject: Our own festival/program/event Message:

How about sponsoring our own little get toether. We could even 'invite' M. Give him an opportunity to explain himself. Have Q&A's. All donations and the small entrance fee could go towards paying for the hall and in a fund for legal expenses. Just think on how much we would save by not having to build an elaborate stage or having to buy all those flowers he used to wear. And PAM's would be relagated to the back row! Ha!

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Date: Thurs, Jul 06, 2000 at 17:34:36 (GMT) From: VP Email: None To: Tonette Subject: Our own party--sort of ot Message:

I wanted to get a party together at my place. Nothing fancy, just some pillows on the floor, belly dancers, incense, tarot readers, tofu for Joe, snicker. (bouncers at door to keep out bongo premies) But it never panned out--so far, anyway. Any ideas, anyone?

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Date: Thurs, Jul 06, 2000 at 18:18:12 (GMT) From: Joe Email: None To: VP Subject: Rent the Miami Beach Convention Center...... Message:

Or maybe we could use the old DECA warehouse in Hialeah. I hear there is swamp-land near Kissimmee, Florida that isn't used anymore either. That's a possibility -- we could all camp there, and take turns pulling each other around in a flower-drapped carriage while wearing a gold crown, while others stand along the road and pranam in the mud, as a commeration of when we worshipped Maharaji that way there in 1979, during that period when Maharaji was having fun with his followers, but was really 'taking stock.' Just remember to bring lots of bug repellant.

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Date: Thurs, Jul 06, 2000 at 19:03:57 (GMT) From: VP Email: None To: Joe Subject: The following is a JOKE-ex fest 2000 Message:

Don't forget to bring the blankets to meditate under. (Can someone loan me an extra baragon?) Now, some exes will have to do service for the cause. We can obtain a list of premies from our intelligence sources at ELK--complete with photos. Some exes will have to volunteer to keep all 'security risks' from attending ex fest by checking for the magic ex password at the entry hall and comparing all those wishing to enter with our compiled photos. (Roger? Sir Dave?) All 'participants' in the ex fest must have 1) posted on the forum under at least one false name 2) seen Lord of the Universe at least once 3) Read The Guru Papers 4) Disavowed vegetarianism 5) Sent all copies of And It Is Divine to the round file or Jim Heller 6) Mailed one letter of sincere questions (foolishly expecting answer) to EV or Maharaji I nominate gErRy and Jim to compile a list of questions and grill any non exes who manage to sneak through security. That way, they are sure to leave the party ASAP, thus leaving more beer and cigars for all of us!

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Date: Thurs, Jul 06, 2000 at 14:48:47 (GMT) From: Susan Email: None To: Everyone Subject: I am deciding how to respond Message:

This is a big decision and there are some choices for me to make. I want the people and there are so many that I do not want to list you all because I might forget someone, who have written supportive posts to know that I REALLY appreciate it. I especially appreciate what Katie has been saying. From the first day I saw the FAQ I felt I had to respond. But, I have to resist the temptation to do it impulsively and really think out my options. Recall, I did report this, twice before. EV's President in England, and Linda Gross as SHP has now come forward to say, and I knew this and respected his privacy on the issue, have both stated that the people who I reported it to deny it. As SHP stated, it is really hard to imagine that even twenty years later a person would have no recolllection of such a thing. I think SHP has a lot of guts to take a stand on this issue. These no recollection letters are scary. Because they make me think that Elan Vital is a much more sinister organization than I even thought before. It is also very bizarre to have one's integrity challenged in a letter, or FAQ, that has obvious lies in it. If they are lying in these letters and FAQs, then why would they treat whatever statement I make to them with integrity? I have every reason to beleive they would not. However, let me be clear, I have never been contacted by Elan Vital. If, they are referencing Abi and I as the two victims, they may be referencing the Anth and Glenn Whitaker correspondence, which someone posted a link to. In it, Glenn asks Anth for our names, and Anth responds by stating the reasons Abi and I have lost faith in their sincerity that they really want to investigate this, rather than cover it up. He states that we are happy to talk to the police. Yet another lie is in the FAQ, as Anth did contact the police. I have tried to as well, but not with as much success, this is a very old complaint, and what happened to me was much less than the other victims. It is very hard to decide how, and if, to respond to people who are lying and whose motives are clearly self protection. Also, common sense tells me Elan Vital could very well know of victims that we here in our ex premie virtual community do not. I knew of a handful of girls in Miami, and Abi knew of others in England. The odds that Jagdeo stopped there are so slim as to be absurd. That is not how pedophiles operate. His job was to travel and move, travel and move. Why would he just decide to do this in these two cities? And if he acted like most pedophiles, and did this whenever he had the opportunity, would there not have been some other child or parent who came forward? How about now? I think they could well have corroboration we will NEVER hear about. I am really sick of all this.

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Date: Fri, Jul 07, 2000 at 09:25:24 (GMT) From: Jean-Michel Email: None To: Susan Subject: More thoughts on a response Message:

My sugegstion, again, beside any legal action you may undertake, is to have a document publicly available (and maybe properly copyrighted). Could be available on this website. A lot has already been written on this issue, by you and other exes, and you could use these materials for this document. I'm offering you to help for the layout etc if you want. Beside this, I've been involved in EV's organization since 1974, and also one of the appointed (by EV) French translators for him when he was in Paris. I clearly remember translating for him during satsang sessions in the late 70s and 80s. And I've never heard of anything regarding a potential danger with him.

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Date: Fri, Jul 07, 2000 at 19:47:58 (GMT) From: Joey Email: None To: Jean-Michel Subject: More thoughts on a response Message:

My sugegstion, again, beside any legal action you may undertake, is to have a document publicly available (and maybe properly copyrighted). Could be available on this website. Yes, I believe its time to document this entire saga in one well-written article....from the beginning with the original abuse right up until now with EV's denial and humiliation of the victims. A well written article can also be submitted to other sites such as Steve Hassan's and the Leo J Ryan website. They're actually aking for such articles to be submitted. I say if Susan wants to go that route, then let the story not only be on this site, but all over the net...on as many sites as possible. HOWEVER, if Susan wants to take a legal route, it may very well be that her lawyer will tell her that its time to be quiet about the entire matter before it gets to court. Of course, I agree with Katie and others that the decision is Susan's to make. I wouldn't want to influence her one way or another...just offer her my best wishes whatever she decides.

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Date: Fri, Jul 07, 2000 at 03:19:15 (GMT) From: bill Email: None To: Susan Subject: I am deciding how to respond (ditto) Message:

Hi Susan, Sorry you have to endure this ugly lying that rawat and his lapdog minions do so easily. It is upsetting to me also to read many of the other lies. It must be much worse for you. This dispicable group of liars drive us to further action. Hard to believe how low they stoop. There is not one shred of integrity in the whole group of rawat and his 'volunteer' organization. This is definately adding insult to injury. Anybody have glen whitikers address? NOT the email. Anyone know where he works?

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Date: Thurs, Jul 06, 2000 at 20:35:44 (GMT) From: Joe Email: None To: Susan Subject: Jagdeo's Crimes Message:

Hi Susan, I agree with VP down below, who said that whatever you decide you need to do for yourself in all of this is fine. You shouldn't feel like you have to do anything. I would, however, love to see you respond to the lies that Elan Vital is putting out, although I think you just did that, above. Also, I wanted to say that if I recall correctly, you reported Jagdeo's molestations to an initiator (Randy Prouty) in 1977, who was quite close to Maharaji, and again in 1979 to Judy Osborne who was then working at Maharaji's 'residence' taking care of Maharaji's children (as an unpaid servant by the way), and that she told you that, at that time, Maharaji already knew about complaints against Jagdeo. I just wanted to say, that from September, 1979 to October,1980, I was 'Community Coordinator' for Elan Vital in Miami, Florida. I recall Jagdeo speaking at satsang in Miami during that period, and also at big 'festivals' in Miami and Kissimmee, Florida during that period. When Jagdeo was in Miami, no one at Elan Vital, nor anyone else, said that any precautions had been taken in regard to Jagdeo's crimes against children, and I certainly was NOT informed about protecting the children of the followers of Maharaji in the Miami Community. I believe that given the position I had, if Elan Vital or Maharaji had taken any steps to preclude Jagdeo's activities based on your notifying them of what he was doing, I certainly would have been informed. And, of course, Elan Vital is stating publicly that it had no knowledge of what Jagdeo did until it read about it on the internet. I also wanted to say that your courage is inspiring to me. You have already helped people deal with with awful situation by having the courage and tenacity to speak out. Joe

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Date: Fri, Jul 07, 2000 at 18:55:01 (GMT) From: cq Email: None To: Joe Subject: and bravo to the both of you for exposing him (nt) Message:

and bravo to the both of you for exposing him (nt)

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Date: Thurs, Jul 06, 2000 at 19:59:53 (GMT) From: Elaine Email: None To: Susan Subject: Susan Message:

Susan, If I had the resources I would take off and travel around and find that fucker Jagdeo - and take care of him myself. Just to tell you how I feel about him. But,we've talked about this before. (And I would do all this as you were feeling the love of the Universe inside and outside you. ;) Elaine

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Date: Fri, Jul 07, 2000 at 02:41:35 (GMT) From: SB Email: None To: Elaine Subject: Elaine: Shut the fuck up!! Message:

fake bitch!!

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Date: Thurs, Jul 06, 2000 at 20:29:02 (GMT) From: SB Email: None To: Elaine Subject: Elaine: Have Elan Vital received your complain.... Message:

letter about this matter? Share it with you if you did. Talk is cheap, no?

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Date: Fri, Jul 07, 2000 at 05:26:31 (GMT) From: Rob Email: None To: SB Subject: You're starting to get my attention Elaine...NT Message:

NT

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Date: Thurs, Jul 06, 2000 at 15:43:21 (GMT) From: Jean-Michel Email: None To: Susan Subject: One suggestion Message:

Is to have a permanent page or section on this website or mine on this very issue.

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Date: Fri, Jul 07, 2000 at 03:24:53 (GMT) From: bill Email: None To: Jean-Michel Subject: I agree JM (nt) Message:

sth

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Date: Thurs, Jul 06, 2000 at 15:33:59 (GMT) From: shp Email: None To: Susan Subject: reply to Susan Message:

Hi Susan, Please check out my reply to Joe further down about if premies question or think about things...I can only speak for myself, not 'premies'. I just really hope and pray that you, Abi and the others can find your way to your greater and deeper personal healings independent of any response or non-response from EV or anyone else. You have that power within you and no one can withhold it unless you give them the authority to. So may you feel intensely - and know that it is real - all the love that surrounds you now, and all the emotional healing energy, and that no one or nothing can withhhold it from you. We have to do what we have to do in this world, but we can do it so much better if we are experiencing and knowing that healing and protecting love pulsing through us constantly. I also hope and pray that everyone here on this Forum, regardless of viewpoint, takes some time to sincerely seek communion with their own inner spirit however each may do it, but that each reaches really far within and gives of their best here on these screens we all stare at and search for answers for so many hours, trying to sort out the suffering of children and right the wrong, for you and also for the future, that it may not happen again in this neck of the universe. shp

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Date: Thurs, Jul 06, 2000 at 16:23:10 (GMT) From: Tonette Email: None To: shp Subject: reply to Susan Message:

Well that is all very well and enlightened. Boy shp what knowledge you impart. You must be such a realized soul. BTY, shp, would you have that same viewpoint if your daughter was raped or molested? Huh? Let me guess, you don't have any children. What an asshole response. What premie speak. Excuse me I gotta go puke!

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Date: Fri, Jul 07, 2000 at 11:07:51 (GMT) From: shp Email: None To: Tonette Subject: reply to Tonette Message:

T said: Well that is all very well and enlightened. Boy shp what knowledge you impart. You must be such a realized soul. BTY, shp, would you have that same viewpoint if your daughter was raped or molested? shp says: I'd want my kid or any loved one to heal up regardless of whether or not we were getting cooperation from the authorities to assure the control and apprehension of the perpetrator or not....as much as possible without or before that kind of closure, to avoid further personal suffering...and I would seek ways (including and in addition to what is going on here on this site) for the sake of the injured person(s). That would be empowering to the victim(s), to find ways to feel better that are not dependent upon anyone else, especially the parties representing the culprit. Of course, getting complete closure is ideal, but until then I would want the suffering to be eliminated as much as possible. Wouldn't you? No, I'm not 'such a realized soul', and that is what I am realizing. If my kid had been involved, it would have been handled alot different at the time of the actual events, of that you can be sure. T: Huh? Let me guess, you don't have any children. shp: Wrong. Two sons. Both naturally delivered. I caught the first one. Organically fed, homeschooled for a number of years, both growing strong and straight. Much much love, time and energy invested in each of them, and I would defend them with everything in me. T: What an asshole response. What premie speak. Excuse me I gotta go puke! shp: You have to puke, not because of what I said, but because you are so full of wrong thinking it manifests in physical form via puking. To blame me for you having to puke or you having to do anything is indicative of a certain kind of psychological problem. Take responsibility for your own bodily functions, thank you very much. I have enough to be responsible for without your regurgitated repast garnishing my plate. This is not about you or me or what we think of each other. Try to stay focussed.

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Date: Sat, Jul 08, 2000 at 03:22:50 (GMT) From: Tonette Email: None To: shp Subject: reply to Tonette Message:

Maybe if you engaged your brain cells occasionally instead of constantly meditating and remembering holy name you might actually make sense again someday again.

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Date: Sat, Jul 08, 2000 at 13:17:27 (GMT) From: shp Email: None To: Tonette Subject: reply to Tonette Message:

Tonette said: Maybe if you engaged your brain cells occasionally instead of constantly meditating and remembering holy name you might actually make sense again someday again. shp says: Tonette, if and when you really want to communicate and not just play some adolescent word games with me, let me know. All ex-premies are not alike, and same goes for premies. We are all people first. I think whoever is trying to communicate here would be well advised to find the most common denominator we all share and work from there. Us-them stuff just makes things worse. Take care.

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Date: Sat, Jul 08, 2000 at 18:58:18 (GMT) From: Jim Email: None To: shp Subject: How stupid you are, shp! Message:

All ex-premies are not alike, and same goes for premies. We are all people first. It's the ideas that matter, shp. This is a discussion and all we've got are our words to define us. Yours are very garden-variety new age fluff. There's nothing the least bit original about you. I could find a handful of shps downtown at the flea market tomorrow. Really, you all got your dieas at the same new-age convenience store and it shows. You're folloing yourself if you think otherwise. I think whoever is trying to communicate here would be well advised to find the most common denominator we all share and work from there. Us-them stuff just makes things worse. Take care. It's not that either. It's ideas. Yours are to ostupid to take seriously.

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Date: Sat, Jul 08, 2000 at 20:11:49 (GMT) From: shp Email: None To: Jim Subject: Exclamations, commands etc is what you are about. Message:

All ex-premies are not alike, and same goes for premies. We are all people first. -shp It's the ideas that matter, shp. This is a discussion and all we've got are our words to define us. Yours are very garden-variety new age fluff. There's nothing the least bit original about you. I could find a handful of shps downtown at the flea market tomorrow. Really, you all got your dieas at the same new-age convenience store and it shows. You're fooling yourself if you think otherwise. -jim Yeah, and I know some arrogant folks who think they have an edge on most everybody else and abuse it to boot...a legend in their own minds, just like you. But we are both deeper than all that, aren't we...or are you just a lawyer hacking away 24/7 on everybody like you are in court because you only have one gear? A bit of your humanity peeked out of your 'insight' post, but quickly hid away. I saw you. I heard you. -shp I think whoever is trying to communicate here would be well advised to find the most common denominator we all share and work from there. Us-them stuff just makes things worse. Take care. -shp It's not that either. It's ideas. Yours are too stupid to take seriously. -jim So don't invest any more energy in me. I won't be insulted. You have a bad habit that you pull on others as well as me. You call people 'stupid' if you don't agree with them. I'm not the only one. You hassled Susan about our dialog. You are an immature buttinski, one of millions of people walking the earth who have become physically mature, hold jobs, function adequately to live independently, but are still psychologically and emotionally children. That's not from 'new age' insight, that's from old fashioned common horse sense. You go get yourself a case of Windex and a roll of paper towels, shine up all your mirrors and spend some time in front of them.

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Date: Sat, Jul 08, 2000 at 21:18:14 (GMT) From: Jim Email: None To: shp Subject: You're just a big ninny, aren't you? Message:

shp, Somehow I picture you in drag like Dame Edna herself. Only you're wearing a new-age peasant's dress or something. Susan's too kind to you. She forgets how you backtracked and started covering for Maharaji soon after your big moment of glory -- your one little ltter to the cult. But I don't. I remember.

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Date: Sat, Jul 08, 2000 at 23:05:56 (GMT) From: shp Email: None To: Jim Subject: You're just a big ninny, aren't you? Message:

jim wrote: shp, Somehow I picture you in drag like Dame Edna herself. Only you're wearing a new-age peasant's dress or something. shp says: Whatever. Verbal demeaning degrading attacks are what you are practiced at, and you will use them to win a case regardless of who is innocent or guilty. That's how you make a living, right? So what am I supposed to do now according to your game plan, get upset and start calling you names, get down in the gutter and throw mud with widdle Jimmy Heller? No thanks. Interesting that you mentioned the peasant dress, though. Some Time Magazine shmuck reporter referred to the peasant dress of a Nader supporter in his article to demean the Green Party, too. They make more sense than all the other candidates put together, too. And all this guy could come up with was that a facilitator wore a peasant dress and antoher coordinator had a Portabello sandwich. And this shmuck reproter called Nader and the Green Party gadflies too. So I am in good company. Go ahead, keep making an ass out of yourself. I don't have to do a thing. Godman Jim delcares: Susan's too kind to you. shp: So now you monitor and control the kindness emitting out of each ex-premie and who they are being kind to. You are one busy guy. Jim: She forgets how you backtracked and started covering for Maharaji soon after your big moment of glory -- your one little letter to the cult. But I don't. I remember. shp: You don't know what Susan remembers and what she doens't remember. And your head must be in a concrete base, which affords stability but not much room for growth. You are one arrogant asshole...I want to call you a son-of-a-bitch, but I don't want to insult your mother whom I never met. She might be a very nice person. So asshole will have to do. I have no 'moments of glory' as you call them, and your own strange way of expressing all this reveals your own sick self and motivation, not mine. If I am so stupid and new age, why don't you go spend some time on other more significant and intelligent people? I'll tell you why. Because your actions speak louder than your words and your actions reveal that you talk to me and continue to talk to me, all the while declaring what a waste of time it is. what a poser you are...a hoser poser. Yeah, YOU. James Heller, Esq. You actually win cases with the shit you play here? God, you must be a big fish in a small pond. You were saying...?

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Date: Fri, Jul 07, 2000 at 16:13:23 (GMT) From: Jim Email: None To: shp Subject: Shp would have been a great Tartuffe Message:

Who was it, Moliere perhaps? Wrote that great play about the windbag spiritual advisor, Tartuffe? I saw it as a kid at Stratford. Shp can't see himself and thus makes a classic buffon, fit for stage or legend.

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Date: Thurs, Jul 06, 2000 at 19:24:11 (GMT) From: SB Email: None To: Tonette Subject: Do you have the burff bag? Who has them, pass one Message:

I puked!! I am so, so ashamed of having supported these sychos for so long!!

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Date: Thurs, Jul 06, 2000 at 20:57:47 (GMT) From: Katie Email: None To: SB, Tonette, Jim Subject: I respect shp for his actions in this matter Message:

As Susan said, OK, maybe you don't like the spiritual stuff. But I can appreciate a lot of what shp (Sandy) has said - sometimes you never get an apology, or any other kind of satisfaction from someone who has sexually abused you, or the organization that has permitted them to do that. You have to heal yourself - and I know that both Abi and Susan have done a lot work on that on their own, although I appreciate their concern for other people who might have been abused by Jagdeo, and their bravery in coming forward. I also think Sandy was very brave to write to Elan Vital under his own name, and to outrightly state that he would not tell anyone about Maharaji or take someone to a program because this abuse matter was unresolved. I also VERY much appreciate the fact that he believed Susan was telling the truth - so many other people on here have questioned her veracity in a 'blame the victim' way. In fact they are STILL doing it. I know what that feels like, and I respect Sandy for not doing that, and for ACTING. I'm guessing that if Sandy's daughter were abused, he'd have a similar reaction - try to help her as much as he could (in his own way) and contact people that he thought could stop the person from doing further harm to children. I don't agree with everything Sandy says on this forum, but I do respect his stand on this issue.

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Date: Thurs, Jul 06, 2000 at 23:57:59 (GMT) From: Jim Email: None To: Katie Subject: Do u respect his rationalizing on m's behalf too? Message:

As I recall, after Shp made his admittedly-brave (for a cult member) gesture of writing EV he did a couple of posts where he basically rationalized away Maharaji's culpability. Did it make sense? No, of course not. It was new-age drivel. Was it offensive? You bet. Check the archives.

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Date: Fri, Jul 07, 2000 at 14:37:46 (GMT) From: Katie Email: None To: Jim Subject: Maharaji knows about it NOW! Message:

Jim, I believe that Maharaji DID know about these incidents - based on what Susan has said. However, regardless of that (and it's a point that could be argued endlessly because there is no way we will ever know for sure), it is obvious that Maharaji knows about the reports of abuse NOW. That is not arguable, and I have to wonder what Sandy and other premies think about his non-action NOW - not to mention his allowing EV to lie about it. Katie

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Date: Fri, Jul 07, 2000 at 19:17:16 (GMT) From: cq - and his silence Email: None To: Katie Subject: continues to be the most eloquent thing he's never Message:

... and his silence continues to be the most eloquent thing he's never said.

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Date: Thurs, Jul 06, 2000 at 21:13:25 (GMT) From: SB Email: None To: Katie Subject: I respect shp for his actions in this matter Message:

Rainny day: No work!!! I didn't know that shp had written a letter to Elan Vital. I do give her credit for that!! Sure I do, honestly. When I wrote my post bellow I didn't know that though... Nobody can heal with unresolved garbage though...IMO, Susan needs Maharaji's response in orden to heal, otherwise, it's just more abuser that she definetly doesn't need. As painful as it may be right now for her to read Elan Vital's lies, doing something will provide for the opportunity to heal and let go. We are talking about GOD here...and he's full of compassion...Now HE has to show that!! Thanks Katie.

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Date: Thurs, Jul 06, 2000 at 15:38:03 (GMT) From: Jim Email: None To: shp Subject: YOU MAKE ME PUKE, SHP! (nt) Message:

yech!!!

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Date: Thurs, Jul 06, 2000 at 15:52:01 (GMT) From: Susan Email: None To: Jim Subject: actions speak louder than words Message:

Jim, I understand that all the spirituality in that post might make you 'ill' but, I wish you would lay off him. Sandy wrote to Linda Gross about this and has taken a stand. A stand he took even though we all know that by doing so he would be forever relegated to the back row reserved for those not trusted by Elan Vital. I think it was brave, I think it was a very selfless act. He got the letter back and sent a copy to me and to Anth. It was pretty similar to the Glen Whitaker stuff. How many premies have had the guts to speak out on this issue like SHP? Very few. And if they are lurking, and they read you make me sick after what he wrote, it just reinforces the 'hate site' thing they like to spout. Again, SHP, I do thank you very much.

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Date: Fri, Jul 07, 2000 at 11:20:27 (GMT) From: shp Email: None To: Susan Subject: actions speak louder than words Message:

Thank YOU, Susan. You know what I have meant in my posts to you that Tonette and others have been tearing up. You know because I wrote those words for you, from heart to heart across all barriers and we have heard each other and believed each other, one-to-one. And we have done this with an audience of critics chewing away at my every word and nuance, looking for something 'bad' at every turn. Of course your complete healing would be complemented with accurate and straight-talking input from EV (and ideally Maharaji personally), but what I was saying is that until then, or even if that never happens, I want you to let it go as much as possible, for your own sake, not for anyone else's. shp

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Date: Fri, Jul 07, 2000 at 15:47:47 (GMT) From: Jim Email: None To: shp Subject: There you go, Susan, your own private angel (nt) Message:

hhhhhhh

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Date: Thurs, Jul 06, 2000 at 16:08:28 (GMT) From: Jim Email: None To: Susan Subject: Sorry, I can't get past his gross sanctimoniousnes Message:

s Shp's siezed on this little issue as his pet. Something to base his Sunday sermon on. The point's too obvious for words. YES, for the millionth time, good for Shp that he wrote EV. But how many victory parades does that warrant? Afterward, if you recall, Shp dissembled like crazy about what all the rest of us could see were the logical ramifications of them never answering. He virtually exonerated Maharaji in the process. Don't you remember?

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Date: Thurs, Jul 06, 2000 at 15:14:56 (GMT) From: VP Email: None To: Susan Subject: I understand Message:

why you are sick of this whole thing. It IS important to discuss this here because, as you said, it shows how sinister this whole thing is. But YOU personally shouldn't have to say another thing about it ever again if you don't want to. When you know you are right, it's tempting to want to say your piece, especially when others are questioning you. But, Susan, you will never be able to convince some people and you shouldn't have to. I also have serious doubts that you will ever be answered by EV. Look at Dave Sterling's attempts to get a simple answer about copyrighted materials on his website. You (and Dave) and others deserve an answer, but probably will never see one. OR if you do get one, it will resemble the FAQs. The way I see it, you didn't even have to come forward and tell your story in the first place-- a lot of people haven't. Therefore, I admire you very much for doing it. Abi, too. You have done more than enough. For people to keep demanding things of you is ridiculous. You know what happened, you have confronted it and that should be enough for people. You don't owe anyone anything.

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Date: Thurs, Jul 06, 2000 at 15:18:01 (GMT) From: Tonette Email: None To: VP Subject: ditto nt Message:

xxxxx

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Date: Thurs, Jul 06, 2000 at 15:06:43 (GMT) From: Ruphus Email: None To: Susan Subject: I am deciding how to respond Message:

1. Anth refused to give the names of you and Abi, when Glen asked about it. I don't understand why. 2. Anth says he reported this case to the police. If the police investigated it at all, they would have contacted both you and Abi. 3. As far as I understand neither you nor Abi have given any statement directly to the police. 4. Would it not be possible to find Judy and Randy and talk to them about this? So said, I understand very well your frustration.

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Date: Thurs, Jul 06, 2000 at 15:14:48 (GMT) From: Tonette Email: None To: Susan Subject: You must do something Message:

A good attorney is what you need. I am sickened by what was allowed to happen to you and others! Maybe an open letter in every major newpaper would weed out other children who were abused by that monster. A good attorney could take it form there. Please don't tell me Jagedo is still in the US! It is your moral resposibility to protect others. Anything I can do please let me know. netguest42@yahoo.com. I'd even contribute to help defray costs of advertising. Not rich but if everyone helped might be interesting.

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Date: Thurs, Jul 06, 2000 at 15:36:50 (GMT) From: VP Email: None To: Tonette Subject: You must do something Message:

I agree that it IS important to stop Jadego if he still is involved and has access to children. The decision to do something to stop him would rest with the victims--not with us. I say this because it's asking a LOT to have a victim go through a criminal or civil trial. They have to re-live the whole experience over again. They are probably having to re-live it all over again here on the forum which is bad enough.

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Date: Thurs, Jul 06, 2000 at 19:54:36 (GMT) From: VP again Email: None To: whoever cares Subject: You must do something-clarification Message:

I said that it is important to stop Jadego. I didn't mean to say that it was up to his victims to do this. It isn't! It is up to ELAN VITAL and MAHARAJI--the people he works for and with to stop him--get him the help he needs and get him away from innocent children. Jadego is EV and Maharaji's responsibility. He is not ex-premie.org's responsibility and he is not Susan or Abi's responsibility. What I meant to say was that IF the victims wanted to pursue him, that was up to them. Just so they know, they are already heroes in my book.

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Date: Thurs, Jul 06, 2000 at 15:31:52 (GMT) From: Tonette's Husband Email: bobb@wintelsolutions.com To: Tonette Subject: You must do something besides this.. Message:

I'm worried you might be slipping away. I've heard that some of these ex-premies are here because there are no good looking women left in the cult. Watch out for invitations to chat privately. Give me a call at work. Your devoted hushand, Gale

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Date: Thurs, Jul 06, 2000 at 16:26:42 (GMT) From: Tonette Email: None To: Tonette's Husband Subject: Hey sweetheart Message:

What a hoot you are! What's with the email?

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Date: Thurs, Jul 06, 2000 at 15:37:00 (GMT) From: Jim Email: None To: Tonette's Husband Subject: You doing anything after work, Tonette? (nt) Message:

ffffff

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Date: Thurs, Jul 06, 2000 at 15:04:23 (GMT) From: Gerry Email: None To: Susan Subject: I am deciding how to respond Message:

Yes, the criminal case is old and probably not prosecutable. BUT, you have a VERY GOOD civil case. Although it won't put anyone behind bars (god knows that's where some of these people belong) it will EXPOSE these creeps and hopefully put an end to Jagdeo's 'career' at least in the US. And who knows, maybe someone WILL come forward and he'll be prosecuted. And I think there is a very good chance you could win a sizeable judgement, which I firmly believe you deserve. You really need to talk to a lawyer about the civl case if you haven't done so already. Many attornies will work on a contingency basis for a percentage. It's worth looking into. You have my admiration, respect and affection.

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Date: Thurs, Jul 06, 2000 at 20:03:01 (GMT) From: Elaine Email: None To: Gerry Subject: I am deciding how to respond Message:

Oh, screw all this prosecution crap. Isn't there someone that could find Jagdeo and fix him so he never thought about touching another person again.

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Date: Fri, Jul 07, 2000 at 04:21:39 (GMT) From: gErRy Email: None To: Elaine Subject: Now yer talkin' Elaine Message:

We need to think up suitable fitting 'fixes' for Mr Jagdeo... Well, the classic, castration, immediately comes to mind, it bit medieval though... There's chemical castration... lobotomy...chemical lobotomy... Any suggestions from you???

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Date: Fri, Jul 07, 2000 at 15:19:36 (GMT) From: Elaine Email: None To: gErRy Subject: Now yer talkin' Elaine Message:

Gerry, This could be fun. I've only dealt with terrorising neighborhoods and mechanics. One individual in a foreign country - hmmm - I'll think on it. You first. And right -castration is not up our alleys. Elaine

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Date: Fri, Jul 07, 2000 at 15:36:38 (GMT) From: Mechanic Email: None To: Elaine Subject: Now yer talkin' Elaine Message:

I've only dealt with terrorising neighborhoods and mechanics. What did you mean by that?

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Date: Fri, Jul 07, 2000 at 16:13:33 (GMT) From: Marianne Email: None To: Elaine and Gerry Subject: You'd better stop this talk Message:

While I appreciate that neither of you intends to actually do anything to harm Jagdeo, and that your posts are simply an expression of your anger at EV having done nothing to deal with Jagdeo's repeated sexual assaults on children, I really believe you should not be talking this way on the forum. These comments could be misconstrued. And Elaine, I feel compelled to point out that it was you -- A PREMIE -- who started this talk. Gerry, don't fan the flames. Marianne

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Date: Fri, Jul 07, 2000 at 21:29:08 (GMT) From: gerry Email: None To: Marianne Subject: Well, I like to shove a potato up his... Message:

car's exhaust pipe. That one usually worked pretty well... Jeez I got yelled again...

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Date: Fri, Jul 07, 2000 at 22:42:56 (GMT) From: Elaine Email: None To: gerry Subject: Well, I like to shove a potato up his... Message:

Gerry, I hate to be the one to tell you this, but we shouldn't be doing this day-dreaming - not here in black and white - so for any attorney's reading we were both just kidding and venting. But, let's say we were just kidding about say....a mechanic that really screwed us bad and lied to us and messed up our car to the point of having to sell the car even. Just really screwed us...and there just wasn't anything legally that could be proven,you know? Let me say - a potato up someone's exhaust would be minor to what I would have planned. But, since people here don't like this kind of musing I'm going to have to stop. See ya, Elaine

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Date: Fri, Jul 07, 2000 at 16:32:55 (GMT) From: Elaine Email: None To: Marianne Subject: You'd better stop this talk Message:

Marianne, With all due respect, I don't need anyone to point out I started it. I'm not a child. If Jagdeo lived next to me,I would do some insidious undetectable 'thing' to him (and repeatedly I might add) if he was going scott free for his crime. Period. I'm not ashamed of it. I'm basically a vigilante at heart. I don't trust the justice system (along with the media). I do trust that God takes care of everything in the end. But, I lose my judgement with child molesters - or animal torturers. Period. I can certainly respect your opinion that it shouldn't be talked about on this forum - like I said, I lose my judgement - ok. Elaine's Evil Twin Sister

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Date: Fri, Jul 07, 2000 at 22:53:44 (GMT) From: Elaine's neighbour Email: None To: Elaine Subject: You'd better stop this talk Message:

If Jagdeo lived next to me,I would do some insidious undetectable 'thing' to him (and repeatedly I might add) if he was going scott free for his crime. Period. I'm not ashamed of it. I'm basically a vigilante at heart. I don't trust the justice system (along with the media). With your courage and integrity you would allow a fly eat your whole meal. You would never do that, so then, why do you lie to us making those statements? Who can believe that YOU would take the law on your hands? I don't. Except if you are holding something about you and you trully are a crazy person you NEVER would confront anybody that way, right? You say: If Jagdeo lived next to me,I would do some insidious undetectable 'thing' to him (and repeatedly I might add) Sneaky statement. What about the love and compassion you displayed at the begining of you visit to this forum? IMO, a criminal is a sick person and they have to be locked and helped, not be beattened or killed. What do you know? Common Elaine: Read your posts before clicking send. Love manifest itself in many ways...someday maybe you realize that. SB O yes you read my posts!

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Date: Fri, Jul 07, 2000 at 20:27:19 (GMT) From: Rob Email: None To: Elaine Subject: Just an opinon....(FA's pls note) Message:

...respect it or not, but I have this uneasy feeling that you know exactly what you are doing and why. Inspired by the recent closure of ex-premie sites by EV, it could be argued that you are making and provoking potentially threatening remarks in order to give Messrs Sue, Grabbit & Run, Attorneys to the Living Lord, all the excuse they would need to shut this place down and begin proceedings against the administrators. Of course, you could easily dispel this mad fantasy of mine by answering some of the questions I've posed you elsewhere, or simply stating what your current position is vis-a-vis maharaji and your reasons for being involved in this forum. Then again Elaine, you could simply diss me, moan about being told what to do, whimper or otherwise avoid the spotlight. But sooner or later more people are going to begin seriously questioning your motives.

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Date: Thurs, Jul 06, 2000 at 21:12:43 (GMT) From: Katie Email: None To: Elaine Subject: Not the answer Message:

Elaine - This situation has developed so that Jadgeo is not the only problem (I suspect that Maharaji could have stuck him where the sun doesn't shine many years ago - if he had WANTED to). The other problem is that a whole organization is in denial about and is trying to minimize reported child abuse, is telling lies about their 'investigations' into the matter, and is NOT NAMING the abuser so that other premies with children who were around Jagdeo alone can talk to their kids. You probably know how few abused children ever confront their abusers. I am surprised that we have TWO people on this forum who have had the guts to talk about their abuse by Jagdeo (especially given the non-response by DLM/EV earlier in their lives). I would guess that there are other premie children - or former premie children - out there that were abused (in fact, I KNOW there were.) Did you read Abi's testimony? Her father tried to talk to people about the abuse and no one would listen. Susan tried to tell people TWICE, and no one would listen. This indicates a pattern of concealment that possibly covers not only Jagdeo, but other people within the DLM/EV organization. I feel that Elan Vital AND Maharaji both need to be held accountable for this concealment. And for those who say 'Maharaji didn't know' - well, he must be either really stupid or extremely out-of-touch with what is going on in his little world. If I were sending some guy all over the world to talk to people about my spiritual techniques, I would sure as hell want to know what he was doing and saying. Maybe Maharaji's organization has gotten way too big for him to keep track of everyone that supposedly represents him. If so, he shouldn't be doing this in the first place. It is NOT enough to say you 'didn't know', when the person was doing things in YOUR name, and under your auspices. I am sorry to be so vehement, Elaine, but this issue makes me extremely angry. Take care, Katie

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Date: Fri, Jul 07, 2000 at 15:23:52 (GMT) From: Elaine Email: None To: Katie Subject: Not the answer Message:

Katie, BTW, your post was fine. :) Elaine

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Date: Fri, Jul 07, 2000 at 04:38:19 (GMT) From: gErRy Email: None To: glyng@beingthere.com Subject: Do I have to teach youeverything??? Message:

You can't say this: I am sorry to be so vehement, Elaine, but this issue makes me extremely angry. And then say this: Take care, Katie You need private email lesson, I'm afraid...

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Date: Fri, Jul 07, 2000 at 13:46:22 (GMT) From: Katie Email: None To: gErRy Subject: Hell, no! Message:

Good grief, Gerry! In case you haven't read her posts, Elaine was abused as a child. It can't be easy for her to read this stuff. Let Patty read my post and give her opinion about whether it is out of line or not.

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Date: Fri, Jul 07, 2000 at 22:03:20 (GMT) From: gErRy Email: None To: Katie Subject: KATIE ARE YOU SUGGESTING Message:

PATTY'S MORE LAID BACK, EMOTIONALLY BALANCED, RATIONAL, COOL-HEADED, THOUGHTFUL, SLOWER TO ANGER AND HAS A BETTER TAN THAN I DO ??? WELL YOU'RE WRONG about the tan...

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Date: Fri, Jul 07, 2000 at 14:33:45 (GMT) From: gerry Email: None To: Katie Subject: Uh, Katie, that was supposed to be a joke... Message:

I guess I misspoke 8>) A lot of that abused stuff goin' around and that ain't no joke...

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Date: Fri, Jul 07, 2000 at 14:41:53 (GMT) From: Katie Email: None To: gerry Subject: Uh, Katie, that was supposed to be a joke... Message:

The forum is so hot and heavy right now that I wasn't sure. (Plus that gErRy guy is kinda scary sometimes!) Take care, Katie

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Date: Thurs, Jul 06, 2000 at 21:15:31 (GMT) From: VP Email: None To: Katie Subject: Not the answer Message:

I agree with all that you said here Katie-- 100 % Darn good post! VP

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Date: Thurs, Jul 06, 2000 at 20:57:11 (GMT) From: Joey Email: None To: Elaine Subject: Don't go there, Elaine Message:

I resent your attempt to trivialize this pathetic situation, with the suggestion implicit in your post that it be resolved violently.

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Date: Fri, Jul 07, 2000 at 00:45:28 (GMT) From: Elaine Email: None To: Joey Subject: Don't go there, Elaine Message:

Wow, you call my post about vengeance (pay back) as 'trivializing'? Boy, are we ever on two different wavelengths.

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Date: Fri, Jul 07, 2000 at 05:31:01 (GMT) From: Rob Email: None To: Elaine Subject: Joey's right Message:

Does sound like you are just trying to ingratiate yourself. Or are you beginning to have doubts about your loyalties?

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Date: Fri, Jul 07, 2000 at 01:46:59 (GMT) From: Sir Dave Email: sirdavid12@hotmail.com To: Elaine Subject: Don't go there, Elaine Message:

I can sympathise with Elaine's sentiment. It's a bit santimonious to suggest that people shouldn't feel like giving Jagdeo a kicking. Some child abusers need police protection after they have been released from prison. There's no point in being nice to really nasty people. All they do is take advantage of it. Look at Maharaji. There's a good case of a really nasty person taking advantage of nice people.

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Date: Fri, Jul 07, 2000 at 03:44:32 (GMT) From: Joey Email: None To: Sir Dave Subject: Don't go there, Elaine Message:

I'm not suggesting that we be 'nice' to Jagdeo. Exposing him on this forum hasn't necessarily been a nice thing to do. Remember Dave, there's a certain power behind words. I can understand you sharing in the sentiment behind behind Elaine's post, but not in her suggesting publicly on this site, that someone ought to track him down and 'fix' him. As Katie said, that is 'not the answer'.

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