Forum V: Archive
Compiled: Mon, Jul 24, 2000 at 09:20:21 (GMT)
From: Jul 13, 2000 To: Jul 22, 2000 Page: 3 Of: 5


G -:- Another Elan Vital quote -:- Mon, Jul 17, 2000 at 23:26:50 (GMT)
__ SB -:- All 'true' premies think like that! -:- Tues, Jul 18, 2000 at 04:06:20 (GMT)
__ __ Salam -:- All 'true' premies think like that! Why? -:- Tues, Jul 18, 2000 at 05:43:49 (GMT)
__ __ __ shp -:- Possible pain relief for the pulled tooth -:- Tues, Jul 18, 2000 at 21:42:36 (GMT)
__ __ __ SB -:- All 'true' premies think like that! Why? -:- Tues, Jul 18, 2000 at 12:19:59 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Salam -:- I meant run away from this forum. -:- Tues, Jul 18, 2000 at 14:52:03 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ SB -:- Oh yes do run.... -:- Tues, Jul 18, 2000 at 20:33:17 (GMT)

Lotus Eater -:- to jewels -:- Mon, Jul 17, 2000 at 21:32:52 (GMT)
__ Shroomananda -:- I'm not Jewels but I wonder why -:- Mon, Jul 17, 2000 at 23:38:50 (GMT)
__ __ Lotus Eater -:- Here's my response -:- Tues, Jul 18, 2000 at 21:38:32 (GMT)
__ __ __ Shroomananda -:- Thanks for responding -:- Tues, Jul 18, 2000 at 21:59:39 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Lotus Eater -:- Thanks for responding -:- Tues, Jul 18, 2000 at 22:48:52 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Shroomananda -:- It's not frightening at all LE, I'm just trying to -:- Wed, Jul 19, 2000 at 00:39:15 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ SB -:- He is my Lard (nt) -:- Wed, Jul 19, 2000 at 05:08:52 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Lotus Eater -:- it's a good question to find an answer to -:- Wed, Jul 19, 2000 at 04:33:47 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Shroomananda -:- OK, but you didn't answer my question. Did you -:- Wed, Jul 19, 2000 at 04:51:04 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Lotus Eater -:- Listen mate, do your own thinking -:- Wed, Jul 19, 2000 at 23:18:02 (GMT)
__ __ JohnT -:- Here's why -:- Tues, Jul 18, 2000 at 12:53:49 (GMT)
__ __ JtF -:- The Magic Box -:- Tues, Jul 18, 2000 at 08:37:56 (GMT)
__ __ sam -:- I'm not Jewels but I wonder why -:- Tues, Jul 18, 2000 at 04:55:06 (GMT)
__ __ __ Shroomananda -:- The gift-giver has lied? -:- Tues, Jul 18, 2000 at 05:18:43 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ cq -:- The gift-giver has lied -:- Tues, Jul 18, 2000 at 18:15:06 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Shroomananda -:- Even if you feel that the gift-giver has lied -:- Tues, Jul 18, 2000 at 18:55:40 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ cq -:- And a spade is a spade ... -:- Wed, Jul 19, 2000 at 17:14:30 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ JohnT -:- Yes, he's lied. And that 'gift' has strings... -:- Tues, Jul 18, 2000 at 12:25:35 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ ex mug -:- M and Jesus -:- Tues, Jul 18, 2000 at 07:09:06 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Michael -:- M and Jesus -:- Tues, Jul 18, 2000 at 13:29:02 (GMT)
__ __ Jerry -:- I'm not Jewels but I wonder why -:- Tues, Jul 18, 2000 at 02:20:07 (GMT)
__ __ __ Shroomananda -:- Jerry said, 'GO -:- Tues, Jul 18, 2000 at 02:57:59 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Jerry -:- Fucking yourself is easy -:- Tues, Jul 18, 2000 at 03:10:26 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Shroomananda -:- Fucking yourself is easy -:- Tues, Jul 18, 2000 at 03:29:44 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Jerry -:- Fucking yourself is easy -:- Tues, Jul 18, 2000 at 03:40:55 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Shroomananda -:- Whoever told you, in so many words, that you -:- Tues, Jul 18, 2000 at 04:03:30 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Jerry -:- You did, for one -:- Tues, Jul 18, 2000 at 10:33:26 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Salam -:- to Ananda from Shroom -:- Tues, Jul 18, 2000 at 04:13:04 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Shroomananda -:- Was I talking to you? -:- Tues, Jul 18, 2000 at 04:23:34 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Salam -:- Thank you, can you tell me what is this? -:- Tues, Jul 18, 2000 at 05:23:55 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Selene -:- so why are you posting here? -:- Tues, Jul 18, 2000 at 03:35:36 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Shroomananda -:- so why are you posting here? -:- Tues, Jul 18, 2000 at 03:54:35 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Selene -:- that's a good one never heard that one before -:- Tues, Jul 18, 2000 at 04:01:45 (GMT)
__ __ __ Jerry -:- On second thought -:- Tues, Jul 18, 2000 at 02:47:01 (GMT)
__ __ __ Selene -:- as I said earlier -:- Tues, Jul 18, 2000 at 02:44:49 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Jerry -:- as I said earlier -:- Tues, Jul 18, 2000 at 03:00:03 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Selene -:- thanks Jerry I didn't make it up -:- Tues, Jul 18, 2000 at 03:12:38 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Jerry -:- thanks Jerry I didn't make it up -:- Tues, Jul 18, 2000 at 03:16:41 (GMT)
__ __ Elaine -:- I'm not Jewels but I wonder why -:- Mon, Jul 17, 2000 at 23:54:14 (GMT)
__ __ __ JohnT -:- Steady on... -:- Tues, Jul 18, 2000 at 13:05:14 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Elaine -:- Steady on... -:- Tues, Jul 18, 2000 at 13:38:38 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ S Blunt -:- So Elaine, accept responsability too on -:- Tues, Jul 18, 2000 at 23:37:51 (GMT)
__ __ __ Katie -:- I'm not Jewels but I wonder why -:- Tues, Jul 18, 2000 at 10:37:57 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Elaine -:- I see -:- Tues, Jul 18, 2000 at 13:43:50 (GMT)
__ __ __ Monmot -:- It's not your fault -:- Tues, Jul 18, 2000 at 05:31:08 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Jerry -:- It's not your fault -:- Wed, Jul 19, 2000 at 23:45:12 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Hal -:- So much new age crap justifies abuse !! nt -:- Tues, Jul 18, 2000 at 18:35:27 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Monmot -:- It's so new age, it's old age, n'est-ce pas? nt -:- Tues, Jul 18, 2000 at 21:14:29 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Elaine -:- It's not your fault -:- Tues, Jul 18, 2000 at 15:31:49 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Monmot -:- It's not your fault -:- Tues, Jul 18, 2000 at 21:25:38 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Katie -:- Monmot, Elaine, Selene, etc. -:- Tues, Jul 18, 2000 at 10:31:35 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Jim -:- Sometimes yes, sometimes no -:- Tues, Jul 18, 2000 at 15:55:35 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ ham -:- Spot on as usual Jim -:- Tues, Jul 18, 2000 at 22:15:28 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Monmot -:- Velocity Junkie -:- Wed, Jul 19, 2000 at 00:26:21 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Stonor -:- Spot on as usual Jim -:- Tues, Jul 18, 2000 at 23:31:01 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Monmot -:- Grab them hair handles... -:- Wed, Jul 19, 2000 at 00:32:10 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ ham -:- You should have said it, might have slipped -:- Tues, Jul 18, 2000 at 23:44:50 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Lotus Eater -:- from one ex junkie to another -:- Tues, Jul 18, 2000 at 23:03:20 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ ham -:- I wish I could say I believed him but -:- Wed, Jul 19, 2000 at 00:04:57 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ SB -:- Monmot, Elaine, Selene, etc. -:- Tues, Jul 18, 2000 at 12:34:00 (GMT)
__ __ __ Shroomananda -:- Personal responsibility, to me, is -:- Tues, Jul 18, 2000 at 01:08:19 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Elaine -:- Personal responsibility, to me, is -:- Tues, Jul 18, 2000 at 13:54:58 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ cq -:- Are you really a 'guroupie' then, Elaine? -:- Tues, Jul 18, 2000 at 17:35:40 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Elaine -:- Yes -:- Wed, Jul 19, 2000 at 00:35:15 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Michael -:- Personal responsibility, to me, is -:- Tues, Jul 18, 2000 at 02:40:28 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Shroomananda -:- Ex-premies are more compassionate now?? -:- Tues, Jul 18, 2000 at 03:06:45 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Michael -:- Ex-premies are more compassionate now?? -:- Tues, Jul 18, 2000 at 13:24:13 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Shroomananda -:- Answer to your first post...... -:- Tues, Jul 18, 2000 at 17:55:24 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Jerry -:- Ex-premies are more compassionate now?? -:- Tues, Jul 18, 2000 at 03:28:07 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ gerry -:- Ex-premies are more compassionate now?? -:- Tues, Jul 18, 2000 at 03:22:52 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Super Brat -:- What about Elaine to Hal? Provocative? -:- Tues, Jul 18, 2000 at 05:09:56 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ gerry -:- crossed wires, SB? -:- Tues, Jul 18, 2000 at 14:11:40 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ SB -:- Wonder bread: LOL (nt) -:- Tues, Jul 18, 2000 at 20:41:12 (GMT)
__ __ __ Selene -:- no way -:- Tues, Jul 18, 2000 at 01:03:57 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Elaine -:- no way -:- Tues, Jul 18, 2000 at 15:10:40 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Selene -:- no way -:- Tues, Jul 18, 2000 at 16:34:09 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ gerry -:- You know a little NLP, right? -:- Tues, Jul 18, 2000 at 15:59:37 (GMT)
__ __ __ gerry -:- I'm not Jewels but I wonder why -:- Tues, Jul 18, 2000 at 00:17:42 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ SB -:- What kind of therapist could have said that to Ela -:- Tues, Jul 18, 2000 at 01:55:07 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Salam -:- I'm not Jewels but I wonder why -:- Tues, Jul 18, 2000 at 01:25:39 (GMT)

Joe -:- World's THINNEST Books -:- Mon, Jul 17, 2000 at 17:03:18 (GMT)
__ Lakes Lover -:- You forgot three -:- Tues, Jul 18, 2000 at 04:23:25 (GMT)

JtF -:- Propogation2000 (from my D.C. mole) -:- Mon, Jul 17, 2000 at 16:58:11 (GMT)
__ Call -:- Hyatt Hotel: Cult leader's having a kissing feet -:- Tues, Jul 18, 2000 at 01:47:01 (GMT)
__ Jean-Michel -:- Same workshops in France these days -:- Mon, Jul 17, 2000 at 22:19:43 (GMT)
__ Joe -:- Propogation2000 (No different than 1975) -:- Mon, Jul 17, 2000 at 18:36:28 (GMT)
__ __ Salam -:- love your post -:- Mon, Jul 17, 2000 at 20:13:11 (GMT)
__ __ Tonette -:- Got a great laugh! nt -:- Mon, Jul 17, 2000 at 20:11:55 (GMT)
__ __ JtF -:- Propogation2000 (More Deceitful than 1975) -:- Mon, Jul 17, 2000 at 19:12:18 (GMT)
__ __ __ Joe -:- Propogation2000 (More Deceitful than 1975) -:- Mon, Jul 17, 2000 at 19:31:55 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ JtF -:- Propogation2000 (More Deceitful than 1975) -:- Mon, Jul 17, 2000 at 20:05:34 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Joe -:- Propogation2000 (More Deceitful than 1975) -:- Mon, Jul 17, 2000 at 20:55:48 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ So glad -:- Propogation2000 (More Deceitful than 1975) -:- Mon, Jul 17, 2000 at 23:26:11 (GMT)

jondon -:- Dear Visions International -:- Mon, Jul 17, 2000 at 14:19:04 (GMT)
__ Boredon -:- Delusions International -:- Mon, Jul 17, 2000 at 16:10:46 (GMT)

VP -:- FA-someone used my name to post below -:- Mon, Jul 17, 2000 at 12:57:55 (GMT)
__ FA -:- FA-someone used my name to post below -:- Mon, Jul 17, 2000 at 15:21:08 (GMT)
__ __ VP -:- FA-someone used my name to post below -:- Mon, Jul 17, 2000 at 19:23:39 (GMT)
__ __ __ SB -:- Which post is that VP? -:- Tues, Jul 18, 2000 at 20:48:41 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ VP -:- Which post is that VP? -:- Tues, Jul 18, 2000 at 23:23:39 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ SB -:- Spain, eh? hmmmm...who can that be? -:- Wed, Jul 19, 2000 at 03:25:37 (GMT)

Salam -:- The jewel of truth -:- Mon, Jul 17, 2000 at 12:48:26 (GMT)
__ cq -:- The jewel of truth -:- Mon, Jul 17, 2000 at 13:15:53 (GMT)
__ __ JohnT -:- The nastiness of jewels -:- Mon, Jul 17, 2000 at 21:08:27 (GMT)
__ __ __ cq -:- reminds me of -:- Tues, Jul 18, 2000 at 17:00:59 (GMT)
__ __ __ Salam -:- See what they think -:- Mon, Jul 17, 2000 at 22:03:00 (GMT)

SecretServante -:- I just had to say that -:- Mon, Jul 17, 2000 at 08:25:03 (GMT)
__ cq -:- big boots?? you don't mean big boobs, do you? (nt) -:- Mon, Jul 17, 2000 at 13:18:04 (GMT)
__ Zelda -:- OOOOOOO! Sexy! big boots and he lives inside! -:- Mon, Jul 17, 2000 at 10:50:34 (GMT)
__ __ SecretServante -:- OOOOOOO! inside! -:- Mon, Jul 17, 2000 at 21:25:02 (GMT)

Zelda -:- Notice to Premies -:- Mon, Jul 17, 2000 at 06:57:51 (GMT)
__ Pauline Premie -:- Notice to Premies -:- Mon, Jul 17, 2000 at 21:12:11 (GMT)
__ __ Anoder Premy -:- Pauline: Can I move in with you? -:- Tues, Jul 18, 2000 at 02:02:35 (GMT)
__ __ DP -:- HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA -:- Mon, Jul 17, 2000 at 21:38:52 (GMT)
__ __ __ Zelda -:- Gosh I dont know Pauline... -:- Tues, Jul 18, 2000 at 04:16:11 (GMT)
__ Duped Premie -:- Sorry Zelda but I wish to remain duped! -:- Mon, Jul 17, 2000 at 20:00:14 (GMT)
__ __ SB -:- No sense of humor dupie, why? -:- Tues, Jul 18, 2000 at 04:34:53 (GMT)
__ __ __ Zelda -:- Dupe! Holy Smoke I didnt mean THAT -:- Tues, Jul 18, 2000 at 11:08:56 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ gerry -:- Who's the extremist? -:- Tues, Jul 18, 2000 at 16:40:30 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Selene -:- this will go inactive before you answer -:- Thurs, Jul 20, 2000 at 04:16:06 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Zelda -:- Who's the extremist? -:- Tues, Jul 18, 2000 at 20:37:46 (GMT)

G -:- Q and A from Elan Vital FAQ web page -:- Mon, Jul 17, 2000 at 04:22:04 (GMT)
__ Hal -:- Q and A from Elan Vital FAQ web page -:- Mon, Jul 17, 2000 at 12:15:50 (GMT)
__ __ Joe -:- Preconceptions and Concepts... -:- Mon, Jul 17, 2000 at 16:32:54 (GMT)
__ Anon -:- Q and A from Elan Vital FAQ web page -:- Mon, Jul 17, 2000 at 09:35:11 (GMT)
__ __ Joe -:- Oh, Come On Anon -:- Mon, Jul 17, 2000 at 16:09:23 (GMT)
__ __ __ Anon -:- Oh, Come On Anon -:- Mon, Jul 17, 2000 at 19:52:23 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Joe -:- Oh, Come On Anon -:- Mon, Jul 17, 2000 at 21:22:32 (GMT)
__ __ __ jondon -:- Oh, Come On Anon -:- Mon, Jul 17, 2000 at 18:37:42 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Salam -:- Oh, Come On Anon -:- Tues, Jul 18, 2000 at 00:54:54 (GMT)

jewels -:- any other related sites/chats/forums? -:- Sun, Jul 16, 2000 at 21:10:13 (GMT)
__ SB -:- romp your brains maybe get some answers -:- Mon, Jul 17, 2000 at 05:22:44 (GMT)
__ Selene -:- what you are searching for -:- Mon, Jul 17, 2000 at 03:28:32 (GMT)
__ __ Hal -:- Selene you're a gem ! nt -:- Mon, Jul 17, 2000 at 11:59:00 (GMT)
__ __ Salam -:- spot on. -:- Mon, Jul 17, 2000 at 03:36:43 (GMT)
__ __ __ Oliver -:- I laughed, and I laughed, and I laughed. (nt) -:- Mon, Jul 17, 2000 at 07:23:57 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Like a Dummy -:- I laughed, and I laughed, and I laughed. (nt) -:- Tues, Jul 18, 2000 at 02:04:02 (GMT)


Date: Mon, Jul 17, 2000 at 23:26:50 (GMT)
From: G
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: Another Elan Vital quote
Message:
Another quote from www.elanvital.org web site, this one from the Maharaji - Biography - The Man Behind the Message web page:


Maharaji certainly presents something of an enigma. He is not a religious teacher. He says that what he teaches is practical not spiritual, yet it provides an experience of the true self. He says he is an ordinary human being, no different from anybody else, yet his gatherings often trigger a degree of enthusiasm and respect which to a neutral onlooker could justifiably be interpreted as adulation.

Here is how a devoted premie reads the above quote:

Yea, sometimes he says he's ordinary. (a knowing tee hee) But I know differently, I remember him saying he the Lord. (a knowing ha ha) This is just His Lila (ho ho), He's pretending not to be the Lord but hints at it for those who have ears to hear - like me, a living semi-saint. (he he) Like one of my brother ji's said here, He 'mutes his message'. I just ignore all this pretending, I remember He said 'The Lord, the True Saint, the True Guru Maharaj Ji has incarnated in this world.' I remember kissing His Holy Lotus Feet, having His Most Supremest Darshan. But I won't tell 'new people', they can find out later after they are into Knowledge, it might scare them away at first, they're not 'ready' yet.
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Date: Tues, Jul 18, 2000 at 04:06:20 (GMT)
From: SB
Email: None
To: G
Subject: All 'true' premies think like that!
Message:
The more I learn about maharaji I see how much more dangerous his cult is than what I ever thought.

I heard that same 'interpretation' from two premies this week. They told me BOTH to meditate more, that maharaji is real./b> (?)Premies don't 'shine' anymore: They look like zombies.

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Date: Tues, Jul 18, 2000 at 05:43:49 (GMT)
From: Salam
Email: None
To: Any one
Subject: All 'true' premies think like that! Why?
Message:
I have not been here long emough to answer why? Could anyone tell me why premies run away. I am sure some of you have figure that out. Trully now, is it because of lack of conviction in their belefe, or do they think we are some sort of boogy man. I mean I do not mind talking to anybody as long as thet keep the mish mash out of it.Also how come they are poliet most of the time (at least the ones I have seen), I love people that screem,shout and kick, it show that they have something to say? Am I right in asking this question, or is there something I do not know, or maybe because I just pulled a tooth and got confused,help.

Salam

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Date: Tues, Jul 18, 2000 at 21:42:36 (GMT)
From: shp
Email: None
To: Salam
Subject: Possible pain relief for the pulled tooth
Message:
salam:
I just pulled a tooth and got confused,help.

shp:
salam, if you have pain after the gas or novicaine wears off, you may want to get some clove oil at a health food store, dip a q-tip in it and rub it on your gums around the pulled area. Clove oil is a natural painkiller....then there is always beer and all the rest. Just offering a little first aid in the midst of the battle...and even in a war zone, nobody shoots at the Red Cross. So I hope you feel better. I do suggest that you consult with your doctor before taking my advice, but I know it works for me.

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Date: Tues, Jul 18, 2000 at 12:19:59 (GMT)
From: SB
Email: None
To: Salam
Subject: All 'true' premies think like that! Why?
Message:
Premies run away from here?
Premies run away from answers?

I don't understand your question Salam.

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Date: Tues, Jul 18, 2000 at 14:52:03 (GMT)
From: Salam
Email: None
To: SB
Subject: I meant run away from this forum.
Message:
nt
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Date: Tues, Jul 18, 2000 at 20:33:17 (GMT)
From: SB
Email: None
To: Salam
Subject: Oh yes do run....
Message:
Have you visited the arvhives? There is a lot of laughable material.

Elaine has been here for a while and gerry like many of us have good memory to remind her how shifting she can be. Many of us get tired of hearing the same crap. Don't get mad at gerry. Read the archives so you get to know our visitors.

Take care. I haven't forget I owe you an asnwer. (email) I see if I do it tonight, if the children let me. They like to keep me busy at the spanish forum. They are so sweet and loving; they cannot deny where they come from:
A cult? Anything but loving.

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Date: Mon, Jul 17, 2000 at 21:32:52 (GMT)
From: Lotus Eater
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: to jewels
Message:
In an older thread JohnT writes to you that he is appalled. This is in reference to your comment that it is the fault of the person who falls under his spell.

I admired JohnT for being able to say appalled, I was shaking with anger after reading your comment.

How does that make you feel????
Care to reply to that????
Care to actually defend that disgusting statement???

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Date: Mon, Jul 17, 2000 at 23:38:50 (GMT)
From: Shroomananda
Email: None
To: Lotus Eater
Subject: I'm not Jewels but I wonder why
Message:
you seem so angry when she says that the person receiving the gift of Maharaji's Knowledge should shoulder the responsiblity of whether or not he or she likes it. Does Maharaji have all of the responsiblity for the person's reaction (positive or negative) or does the person checking into it shoulder some of the responsiblity? To me, Knowledge of Truth is for Truth seekers and it is their responsibility to ferret out what's real from what's not. You not liking the gift or the gift-giver should be on you, not him. Any response?
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Date: Tues, Jul 18, 2000 at 21:38:32 (GMT)
From: Lotus Eater
Email: None
To: Shroomananda
Subject: Here's my response
Message:
Firstly, i would like to say I am not feeling so angry today. I went for a walk after my last post and remembered a time when i had said the same thing to myself that Jewels said. I then felt a little of that compassion that was talked about further down this thread.

yes, there was a time when I sat in front of the tubby one and decided it was my fault, that i had misused the precious gift this beautiful being had bestowed on me. Why did i think this? because once you accept the premise that k & m are perfect, anything less than perfection is your fault.

One day a crack will appear in the walls of your world view that you won't be able to paper over, when you shoot the rapids of that one, remember this site.

you seem to think there is a lot of anger and hatred here, and thought it risible that someone should say we have become more compassionate now.....wait til you feel the fresh breath of life that comes in through the crack you can't paper over. LE

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Date: Tues, Jul 18, 2000 at 21:59:39 (GMT)
From: Shroomananda
Email: None
To: Lotus Eater
Subject: Thanks for responding
Message:
I've had Knowledge since 1982 and if any cracks had appeared I would have noticed them by now. I'm in for the duration. To me, you guys are caught in the appearance of the thing (why do you all keep calling him lardy, porky, fatso, etc.? He was that way when you were still devotees, or didn't you notice? And what do you have against fat people anyway? Do you call every overweight person you don't like 'fatso'?) To me, this is life is between me and God. He put Maharaji there just when I thought you never got to know what it's all about. Then I heard Maharaji and after seeing and hearing him at my first video event back in 1981, I said to myself 'That guy knows something.' That hasn't changed over the years and sure I dislike what some of the things that the premies say and do and their unquestioning devotion, etc., but the bottom line is I love to listen to Maharaji and practice his Knowledge. Believe me, if he had said something or done something that I considered to be out of alignment with my life, I would have left. But he makes more sense to me than anyone I've ever come across and continues to do so. All the external stuff keeps changing anyway but my experience hasn't. By the way, if Maharaji lost weight and became slim again, would that change the way you guys respond to him? I don't understand the name calling. That's what little kids do on the playground!
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Date: Tues, Jul 18, 2000 at 22:48:52 (GMT)
From: Lotus Eater
Email: None
To: Shroomananda
Subject: Thanks for responding
Message:
Yes, it is a bit like calling names in the playground. I like doing it, I guess the large number of names that refer to his corpulence is a bit like a cartoon process, you pick the most obvious feature; if he was thin with a big nose, he'd get names like the emaciated elephant!

the knowledge session I attended was in 1973, the cracks started to cause me serious problems in 1997, I started to question this year.

when it happens to you, I warn you, the first part is not easy, because you just don't realise what you have absorbed. It is very frightening; having people there who are not afraid to call him a fat greasy hamster, people who are not afraid to take a good look, is most helpful....and finally, good fun!LE

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Date: Wed, Jul 19, 2000 at 00:39:15 (GMT)
From: Shroomananda
Email: None
To: Lotus Eater
Subject: It's not frightening at all LE, I'm just trying to
Message:
understand it. So you had Knowledge for 24 years and suddenly realized that you had been conned. You got nothing out of your experience with Maharaji and Knowledge and the premies? Come on, you stayed for 24 years. That's a long time to be conned. Call him whatever you want. He was your teacher for a long time and you're entitled to call him whatever you want. I just wonder why. It doesn't frighten me at all. Peace, brother!
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Date: Wed, Jul 19, 2000 at 05:08:52 (GMT)
From: SB
Email: None
To: Shroomananda
Subject: He is my Lard (nt)
Message:
L A R D
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Date: Wed, Jul 19, 2000 at 04:33:47 (GMT)
From: Lotus Eater
Email: None
To: Shroomananda
Subject: it's a good question to find an answer to
Message:
27 years, actually, before I suddenly realised I'd been conned, 24 before I encountered serious problems, as you can imagine, it has enormous repercussions for me.

You stated before that you want to understand why we call our former master such names, that is why i started posting to you, and that is what i have been attempting to address. LE

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Date: Wed, Jul 19, 2000 at 04:51:04 (GMT)
From: Shroomananda
Email: None
To: Lotus Eater
Subject: OK, but you didn't answer my question. Did you
Message:
get nothing out of those 27 years with the premies, listening to Maharaji and practicing Knowledge? Do you honestly think that you would have been better off never to have heard about Maharaji? What do you think your life would have been about if you had never followed this path? Would you be happier? Wiser? Healthier? Would you be a potentate or a pauper if you had never heard of Prem? I know it's a speculative question but I find it hard to believe after so many years with Knowledge and Maharaji that you would be so bitter about it. I've heard and felt nothing but love, peace and joy from him. Sure the external stuff from the premies and the organization can give me a headache but ultimately I've benefitted tremendously from my experience with the 'cult'. Do you have devotion now? And if so, what are you devoted to? You don't have to answer if you don't want to, I'm just curious. Peace to you.
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Date: Wed, Jul 19, 2000 at 23:18:02 (GMT)
From: Lotus Eater
Email: None
To: Shroomananda
Subject: Listen mate, do your own thinking
Message:
I specifically said FIND, not tell, give, whatever. You know as I do, the only answer worth having is the one you have arrived at through your own understanding. THINK IT OUT, then I would feel more comfortable in responding to your questions about how I feel.
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Date: Tues, Jul 18, 2000 at 12:53:49 (GMT)
From: JohnT
Email: None
To: Shroomananda
Subject: Here's why
Message:
Shroomananda wrote: she says that the person receiving the gift of Maharaji's Knowledge should shoulder the responsiblity of whether or not he or she likes it

No S, jewels did not say that. This what the braindead apologist actually twittered... those that fall under his spell...that's their problem, not his. (in Pray tell me oh wise one, exactly what experience -:- Sun, Jul 16, 2000 at 20:42:34).

What we have here is a bait laid on purpose to make the taker mad. That's all. It's very simple.

You set and bait a trap to lure the open-hearted hopeful into a delusional belief that you are special - have something special.
Then you say 'Hey - it's your fault you fell for it.'

But that's because you too are an apologist for a false god. You and jewels give the proof. After all, it is clear you have no sense of ethics from your years of following this idol and his training.

I hope this has lifted the fog a little.

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Date: Tues, Jul 18, 2000 at 08:37:56 (GMT)
From: JtF
Email: None
To: Shroomananda
Subject: The Magic Box
Message:
The gift you speak of is a hype. There is nothing inside the box yet rather than admit they have been duped many find magical, mystical things here....they speak of it and rather than admit they see nothing, others agree and embellish....and on and on! Come with the heart of a child and the mind of a fool. The giver is naked!
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Date: Tues, Jul 18, 2000 at 04:55:06 (GMT)
From: sam
Email: -
To: Shroomananda
Subject: I'm not Jewels but I wonder why
Message:
the gift giver has lied, you cant find truth in lies
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Date: Tues, Jul 18, 2000 at 05:18:43 (GMT)
From: Shroomananda
Email: None
To: sam
Subject: The gift-giver has lied?
Message:
What did he lie about? Even if he said that he was the authorized representative of God on the planet, how are you going to prove that's a lie? Because he drank alcohol? Well, didn't Jesus drink wine? Because he slept with someone? Did Christ sleep with Mary Magdalene? I've read all the stuff on this site, including Bob Mishler's interview (who, by the way, died in a plane crash--was God looking out for him?), but nothing I've read here proves he told lies. Are you trying to tell me that every ex-premie got totally ripped off and got no benefits from practicing Knowledge or meditating or participating? If nothing else, you learned it wasn't for you. If you all had never heard about it, you would never have this web-site. You would never have met all these cool ex-premies. I wonder what your lives would have been like if you had never heard about Knowledge or Maharaji. Many of you would have died of overdoses or been in jail or loveless marriages or careers. Could you sit up on the stage and talk about life, etc. as Maharaji as done countless times over the years? When I was an aspirant and coming to Knowledge, I thought that either this was the biggest con job on the planet or it's the real deal. Well, after Knowledge I found it was real for me, but even if I had found it was a con job, at least I would have known that and I could move on from there. Why are you all so stuck in jabbering about how you were so ripped off? Move on and find something else or you'll always be stuck in that bitter place you're in now!
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Date: Tues, Jul 18, 2000 at 18:15:06 (GMT)
From: cq
Email: None
To: Shroomananda
Subject: The gift-giver has lied
Message:
The simple fact Shroo, is that not only has he lied, he continues to lie.

Here's the facts:

Thirty years or so ago he spent all his efforts trying to convince the world that he was the Messiah.

He approved when we published books, magazines and newspapers with the words 'Lord of the Universe' next to photographs of him.

He had a 'Holy Family'

He gave 'Holy Breath' at 'darshan'

His mahatma Gurucharanand spoke of:

'the Lotus Feet of the Supreme Lord Guru Maharaj Ji.'

'When the Lord assumes human form He performs various lilas (divine actions) which can only be recognized by the faithful devotees ...'

'The supreme Lord knows human weaknesses, therefore He manifests Himself in the form of Satguru to reveal the mystery of His own Divinity and to give to His devotees the opportunity of performing service at His Holy Lotus Feet.'

His mother gave us this:
' The Hans Family is the Light of the world and they are going to show the whole world the path of light.'
Shri Mata Ji, Palam Airport, Delhi, 1971.

and this:
'My son is such a great power that He has come to save the whole universe. But who will believe me? From the age of seven Guru Maharaj Ji has openly proclaimed, 'Come to me and I will give you peace. I have come in this universe to establish peace and tranquility for all time.'

(Shri Mataji, Montreal, May 16, 1972)

His brother said of him:
'He is the Word turned to flesh which raises itself to speak about the glory of the Word. Who else can reveal the Word to us except that flesh which is the Word, or the Word which is turned into flesh?'

His father said things like:
'only He who can bestow God-vision instantaneously within oneself is the Satguru of the time, and no one else. In reality, He is God incarnate'

(Shri Hans Ji Maharaj June, 1961, Prem Nagar, India)

And the final fact:

Is this: that the self-same 'Lord', 'Perfect Master' the one who was the FOCUS OF IT ALL - Maharaji NOW HAS THE GALL TO SAY:

'But I was saying right from the beginning: I'm not a messiah; I'm not a prophet, I'm none of those things.'

and you wonder why we get angry?

Duped and conned we certainly were - and quite how any premie who still respects Maharaji can feel that they're being true to themselves when they read that last quote of his is way beyond my comprehension.

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Date: Tues, Jul 18, 2000 at 18:55:40 (GMT)
From: Shroomananda
Email: None
To: cq
Subject: Even if you feel that the gift-giver has lied
Message:
does that negate the feeling of peace that Knowledge brings? You wrote about all these quotes about Maharaji being the Lord and now denying it. Well, many things were said in those days that may have been outlandish but Maharaji said many times that it was up to the individual to decide one way or the other. During a question and answer session following his discourse at Westminster England on November 2, 1971, the 13 year old Maharaji responded to these questions:

Questioner: Somewhere in the magazine, Maharaj Ji, I read that you are the only Supreme Power who can lead one to the Light of God and other gurus aren't important. Now what experience have you had of these other gurus that you can utter these words?

Maharaj Ji: But I never said that. Show me where it is written. Everything I say has a foundation. Yes, the question is, what is the purpose of all other teachers who are on the earth now? and I answer, when there is a tree, beside that tree are many weeds and these weeds are unnecessary. So when the gardener comes he takes them all out. What are they doing there? They are just there. When this tree really grows into something they will abolish these weeds. It will be very powerful. These weeds are unnecessary, they are just wasting one's time. People go to them and it takes five years for them to decide 'No, he is not a true master, let us look for somebody else', and they go to somebody else and they waste their time again, they waste five years unnecessarily. There is no use in this. To waste five years of your time is always unnecessary if there is only one Master. So isn't that true?

Questioner: Yes.

Maharaj Ji: If there is only one Master, everybody can rush to Him. If these weeds were not there, then the Perfect Master would stand out and everybody could go to Him and receive Knowledge without wasting time. But these weeds distract people and they stop people from coming. The trouble is, people are so suspicious nowadays because everything is so artificial.

Questioner: But aren't you saying you are the tree?

Maharaj Ji: No, I don't say I'm the tree.

Questioner: Let me tell you what I think. I may be wrong but I think you are saying to your disciples that you are a tree and there are a lot of weeds around you, and one day you will wipe those weeds out and you will be the Spiritual Master. That's what I think.

Maharaj Ji: That's what you think.

Questioner: That's what I think, but I may be mistaken.

Maharaj Ji: Let me explain. First of all I know this business from beginning to end, because I have been giving all the answers. This happpened in London ashram didn't it? This is our magazine and it has quoted what was said and you can go there and ask the people. Now this man was my disciple when he asked this question, and my answer to him is fact. If I am a weed, then it is still a fact. And if I am a tree, then still what I said is true. But if I say I am a tree and you have realized me, you have asked me for my fruit, you have taken it, you have eaten it, but you have gained nothing, then you will know that I am not the tree. Now you are more intelligent than me in a worldly sense, so you must know what's right and wrong, and you have created the impressiuon in yourself that I am trying to be a tree. But let me say that I never try to be a tree. I am what I said, a humble servant of humanity and that is very clear.

(From Divine Light, Guru Puja Special)

So, CQ, you see a weed and I see a tree. It's up to us individually how we perceive him, isn't it? We're both right!

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Date: Wed, Jul 19, 2000 at 17:14:30 (GMT)
From: cq
Email: None
To: Shrew-man and a?
Subject: And a spade is a spade ...
Message:
Just because you like the meditation, that makes everything just hunky-dory with the Maha and excuses his lies does it, shrew-man?

And if you intend to try and excuse the man's latest lie: ' ... I was saying right from the beginning: I'm not a messiah'
then, Shrew, in my book, I'm sorry to say that makes you a liar too.

Go one, deceive yourself for all I care. But until you can get honest about this one point, I don't intend to follow you as you attempt to weasel your way round the garden ...

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Date: Tues, Jul 18, 2000 at 12:25:35 (GMT)
From: JohnT
Email: None
To: Shroomananda
Subject: Yes, he's lied. And that 'gift' has strings...
Message:
... like you have to relinquish your capacity for independent thought and feeling.

That means that in exchange for this 'gift' you have given up your love of truth; your feel for beauty; and your sense of ethics.

People here know these things - they have been where you are. But they have since moved on to rejoin the human race. Why can't you see that, Shroomananda?

Are you in a cult, or something?

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Date: Tues, Jul 18, 2000 at 07:09:06 (GMT)
From: ex mug
Email: None
To: Shroomananda
Subject: M and Jesus
Message:
Shroomanada

you are assuming that Jesus actually existed.

The first scriptures were (supposedly) written about 30 years
after his death by someone else.

Some say that he was the son of a wealthy architect, and thus
the member of a middle class family at that time (?)
Chances are that he actually slept with more than one woman,
who knows (?)
One could assume that Christanity is merely a long standing
cult anyhow. Basically who knows what Jesus did (even if he
did exist).

In conclusion, I cannot accept your comparison of M with Jesus
as being either true or false, because none of us actually know
what happened approx. 2000+ years ago.

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Date: Tues, Jul 18, 2000 at 13:29:02 (GMT)
From: Michael
Email: None
To: ex mug
Subject: M and Jesus
Message:
ex-mug, sheesh, I would say that you are a bit mistaken in your statements regarding Jesus, but I do agree that comparing M and Jesus is silly. It is all part of that goofy Perfect Master of the Age crap they fed us. M and Yoganada and other groups always put Jesus in their lineage to give them credibility in the West.
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Date: Tues, Jul 18, 2000 at 02:20:07 (GMT)
From: Jerry
Email: None
To: Shroomananda
Subject: I'm not Jewels but I wonder why
Message:
You not liking the gift or the gift-giver should be on you, not him. Any response?

It's not a fucking 'gift'. It's a goddam scam. I'll take responsibility for having been scammed, but that doesn't mean the scam artist is innocent of any wrong done. The sad fact is that the scam artist, that fat fuck called Maharaji, is still around strutting his stuff like he's never done wrong, when he's been making a career of it, so much for responsibility. He has never taken any nor does he ever intend to.

Your choice of words really misses the mark to what's actually happenning here. Gift my ass. Oh, and since you're a premie, I'd just like to say...

GO FUCK YOURSELF, ASSHOLE!!!

Ahhhhh....

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Date: Tues, Jul 18, 2000 at 02:57:59 (GMT)
From: Shroomananda
Email: None
To: Jerry
Subject: Jerry said, 'GO
Message:
FUCK YOURSELF, ASSHOLE.'

Shroomananda replies: How does one go about doing that, Jerry? I guess I need an ass-master for that one. I'm sure you could probably teach me but I'm not so sure I want to learn. Have you discovered any benefits from doing so? I'm always open to new techniques or teachers.

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Date: Tues, Jul 18, 2000 at 03:10:26 (GMT)
From: Jerry
Email: None
To: Shroomananda
Subject: Fucking yourself is easy
Message:
It's very easy to fuck yourself, Shooey. First, what you do is you bow before the 'perfect master' and dedicate your life to him. Then you practice these techniques, called Knowledge, till you're blue in the face trying to realize God. Then you let the 'perfect master' tell you that you're not surrendered enough or committed enough, and that's why you're not making any progress. But keep in touch, (and make whatever contributions you are able, in the meantime, to help the perfect master with his 'work'). Yes, continue this procedure for as long as you care to suffer through it. You'll be fucking yourself, royally, like I and so many other poor bastards did, for years.
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Date: Tues, Jul 18, 2000 at 03:29:44 (GMT)
From: Shroomananda
Email: None
To: Jerry
Subject: Fucking yourself is easy
Message:
Practicing Knowledge and listening to Maharaji are very joyful to me. There has been no suffering whatsoever in the countless times I've listened to him or practiced or participated. Sometimes my arms get tired doing the 2nd technique but then I just put them down for a while but I don't consider that suffering. I've gotten a lot more out of knowing M and K than I've put into it. I just don't understand your hatred.
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Date: Tues, Jul 18, 2000 at 03:40:55 (GMT)
From: Jerry
Email: None
To: Shroomananda
Subject: Fucking yourself is easy
Message:
I didn't get out of it what you did. My hatred is rooted in being told, in so many words, that the reason I didn't was because I just wasn't good enough. I would rather have been told that it just might not be for me, but nobody ever said that. M can't fathom how this Knowledge can fail somebody. Well, it did me.
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Date: Tues, Jul 18, 2000 at 04:03:30 (GMT)
From: Shroomananda
Email: None
To: Jerry
Subject: Whoever told you, in so many words, that you
Message:
weren't good enough did a disservice to Maharaji, because I know that he would never say that. You are good enough and you should not get upset just because someone else thinks you're not. Good luck, Jerry, I wish you all the best that life has to offer you, whether or not M and/or K are in your life or not. He has said that Knowledge is not required but that whether or not it's for you, you should enjoy your life. So enjoy!
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Date: Tues, Jul 18, 2000 at 10:33:26 (GMT)
From: Jerry
Email: None
To: Shroomananda
Subject: You did, for one
Message:
Shoo, you came in here, yourself, blabbing about how if we didn't like the 'gift', we should shoulder the responsibility for that. I'll tell you once again, it was no gift. It was a scam. If it really was a gift, I would have recognized that, and appreciated it. So don't tell me what's a fucking gift and how I'm responsible for rejecting it. You can go fuck yourself if that's the bullshit you think I'm going to swallow. I already swallowed enough of it.
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Date: Tues, Jul 18, 2000 at 04:13:04 (GMT)
From: Salam
Email: None
To: Shroomananda
Subject: to Ananda from Shroom
Message:
Oh you'r so kind to give your blessing enlightened one, accept I have no use for it.
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Date: Tues, Jul 18, 2000 at 04:23:34 (GMT)
From: Shroomananda
Email: None
To: Salam
Subject: Was I talking to you?
Message:
No I wasn't but you are blessed, but not by me.
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Date: Tues, Jul 18, 2000 at 05:23:55 (GMT)
From: Salam
Email: None
To: Shroomananda
Subject: Thank you, can you tell me what is this?
Message:
Re Cults: My MASTER set me free tim_matheson2000
(49/M/Matheson) 7/4/00 8:16 am
http://clubs.yahoo.com/clubs/ilovemaharaji)

()

When my MASTER ordered HIS servants at Elan Vital to address the issue of Is This a Cult in the FAQ's, HE once again showed just how loving HE is. Secretly, Mr. Mind had always been telling me 'you're in a cult...your in a cult'. Now, HIS servants have briefly touched on the issue and I and all you other good premies out there have now been given the freedom to search the internet for information about cults from outside, dispassionate professionals.
I am quite sure the information I find will verify the brief disclaimer about cults provided in the EV FAQ's.

Thank you, thank you, thank you!

and I thought I had cult problems, Salam

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Date: Tues, Jul 18, 2000 at 03:35:36 (GMT)
From: Selene
Email: None
To: Shroomananda
Subject: so why are you posting here?
Message:
why?
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Date: Tues, Jul 18, 2000 at 03:54:35 (GMT)
From: Shroomananda
Email: None
To: Selene
Subject: so why are you posting here?
Message:
Several months ago, I gave a video to a Christian that I saw everyday at the YMCA when I worked out in the morning. He watched the video and kept trying to convert me to Christianity which I wasn't responding to. Then he went on the Net and found this site and bombarded me with questions and even printed out a bunch of the propaganda you have on this site (along with a lot of quotes from the Bible). He wanted to know why the ex-premies were so antagonistic and I responded that I didn't know. So I'm trying to figure out why. I still haven't. The guy never investigated any further so I guess you guys did your job, but I'm sure if he had really wanted to know that essence within that Knowledge showed me, he would have become an aspirant and eventually receive Knowledge. If there is one person on this site who sees one of my posts and decides to give Knowledge or Maharaji another chance, then it will be well worth it. He has said that the door is always open. Also, I'm always in search of new scriptures and you have Hans Yog Prakash on this site as well as the 1st Divine Light publication. So I have benefited from my tour here!
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Date: Tues, Jul 18, 2000 at 04:01:45 (GMT)
From: Selene
Email: None
To: Shroomananda
Subject: that's a good one never heard that one before
Message:
you get a C+ in creative writing
yawn

well just so long as your arms don't start bending back.
No I do not expect you to know what that means.
And you don't have to respond. I got my answer. I don't need to
hear any more of it thank you.

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Date: Tues, Jul 18, 2000 at 02:47:01 (GMT)
From: Jerry
Email: None
To: Jerry
Subject: On second thought
Message:
I place ALL of the fucking responsibility on M's shoulders. I wasn't looking to be scammed. I was sincereley, and humbly asking for the 'gift'. Instead, I was led around by the nose, being told what a precious gift I'd been given, when nothing could be further from the truth. So, I plead innocent through and through, your honor.

Take your gift and shove it up your ass, Shoo-shoo, whatever the fuck your name is.

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Date: Tues, Jul 18, 2000 at 02:44:49 (GMT)
From: Selene
Email: None
To: Jerry
Subject: as I said earlier
Message:
he is not giving anything. His family marketed some age-old meditation techniques to a gullible 60's audience with a cute kid at the helm. The rest is history.

saw Big Brother again. bad Jerry you got me hooked. figured out why i related to Jordan tonight!!!!!

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Date: Tues, Jul 18, 2000 at 03:00:03 (GMT)
From: Jerry
Email: None
To: Selene
Subject: as I said earlier
Message:
Yeah, Selene, I'm wrapped up in it too. My long term prediction on who the winner will be is... George. Only because he's the one guy I can't forsee rubbing anybody the wrong way.

I think what you told Elaine about being raped is right on. She is entirely blameless. But I understand how the victim can feel dirty and guilty when such a crime is committed against her. When you're violated like that, for some reason, in a perverse and sad way, you feel it never would have happenned if you didn't deserve it, somehow. It's wrong to think that way, of course, and part of the healing process is realizing that you did NOTHING to deserve what happenned to you, nothing. I hope Elaine soon realizes this.

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Date: Tues, Jul 18, 2000 at 03:12:38 (GMT)
From: Selene
Email: None
To: Jerry
Subject: thanks Jerry I didn't make it up
Message:
out of nowhere but don't want to get into it.
This business of victims being accoutable is something I know firsthand to be false.

And no matter what I personally consider it a bad metaphor though I can see why someone who hasn't been emotionally involved could make the connection w/o getting upset.

George must be the fat guy no? he is so nice and quiet.

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Date: Tues, Jul 18, 2000 at 03:16:41 (GMT)
From: Jerry
Email: None
To: Selene
Subject: thanks Jerry I didn't make it up
Message:
George must be the fat guy no? he is so nice and quiet.

Yep, that's George, on his way to being 500,000 dollars richer. IMHO, of course.

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Date: Mon, Jul 17, 2000 at 23:54:14 (GMT)
From: Elaine
Email: None
To: Shroomananda
Subject: I'm not Jewels but I wonder why
Message:
Well, I have to admit I can understand a person's first reaction to jewel's statement - after what LE and others feel.

But, my therapist would never let me get away with pointing the finger at Maharaji 100 %. That's all part of the healing is to see your part. Accept all your background that lead you to the point of being 'duped' or whatever word you want to insert.

I'm using my exp. with rape victims, of which I'm one - of course, it was the rapists fault - but it was also mine that I let myself be in a situation that I did. I must and have accepted that - and, by God, it will never happen again - it's part of the healing and strengthening.

***I have taken responsibility for the situations I was in that allowed me to be raped*** - more than once.
( I was very young.)
It's like a statement one says at an AA meeting.

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Date: Tues, Jul 18, 2000 at 13:05:14 (GMT)
From: JohnT
Email: None
To: Elaine
Subject: Steady on...
Message:
That is too a exacting standard. Would it be your fault if you were hit by a meteor! Surely some things do happen out of the blue.

Isn't it that we cannot escape our responsibility for how we respond to what happens to us?

Shit happens. Nasty things do happen to nice people.

Forget that and you are in danger of losing compassion for those dealt harsh blows by the chaos of the real world which we all share.

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Date: Tues, Jul 18, 2000 at 13:38:38 (GMT)
From: Elaine
Email: None
To: JohnT
Subject: Steady on...
Message:
Yes, and as a matter of fact - right after I wrote that post I read a sentence in some psychic book I'm reading about the psychic solving a huge serial rape spree in San Fransisco once - and it said an older woman (I think 83!!!) was attacked in a CONFESSIONAL!!!

I thought, oh boy, am I going to get it from others here.

Ok, so in ALOT of situations we put ourselves in bad things can happen and our responsibility is a big part of the deal.
Not this lady. Like she's going to take pepper-spray in the confessional!!!! Jeez, what a world.

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Date: Tues, Jul 18, 2000 at 23:37:51 (GMT)
From: S Blunt
Email: None
To: Elaine
Subject: So Elaine, accept responsability too on
Message:
the reactions you get with your posts. Don't blame exes and call them mean: They are JUST responding to your words.Take responsability and stop calling other means. You do it everytime you do not like what you read. You side with shp 'false theories'. How silly can you be? Is always room for improvement, thanks god....

That is why is better to mantain an open dialogue than stop it and call some one mean because you cannot respond to their blunt truth. It shows how you are and think, you know?

SB

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Date: Tues, Jul 18, 2000 at 10:37:57 (GMT)
From: Katie
Email: None
To: Elaine
Subject: I'm not Jewels but I wonder why
Message:
Hi Elaine -
You wrote:
But, my therapist would never let me get away with pointing the finger at Maharaji 100 %. That's all part of the healing is to see your part. Accept all your background that lead you to the point of being 'duped' or whatever word you want to insert.

I think that a lot of people you see on the forum felt that it was completely THEIR fault that they got involved, or were duped, or didn't experience anything. I think that a lot of what you read here is people's realizations that it was NOT all their fault. Maharaji and Elan Vital consistently shift blame onto 'the premies' for any lack people experience in practicing K. (Just read the EV FAQ's for examples of this - they cannot even admit that Jagdeo was a child molester!)

Yes, I think we are all responsible for our part of it. But in my own life, I've had to consistently struggle to see that there is even another part besides mine, and that Maharaji, for example, might have been to blame to any extent. One thing about taking responsibility for your part, and your part only, is that it clarifies exactly what part the other person (or whoever) had in the situation.

Take care -
Katie

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Date: Tues, Jul 18, 2000 at 13:43:50 (GMT)
From: Elaine
Email: None
To: Katie
Subject: I see
Message:
what you mean - I didn't realize people here blamed themselves so much. And that it's a healthy turn around to look at M's role now.I see.

Thank you for the clear post.

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Date: Tues, Jul 18, 2000 at 05:31:08 (GMT)
From: Monmot
Email: None
To: Elaine
Subject: It's not your fault
Message:
Elaine:
I think you're doing yourself a great disservice by thinking you had a part in being raped. The guy was a rapist and you crossed his path, that's about as much as you had to do with it, IMO. He violated you, and in a way, you trying to accept some responsibility for the rape is a further violation of yourself. I know that in many instances of our lives it's necessary to take responsibility, but rape is an exception.

A man tried to rape me at knifepoint, and although I got cut up and was stabbed in the hand, he didn't succeed in completing the act. It certainly changed me forever. A follower of John-Roger tried to tell me I created it, and I was incensed at the temerity of her remark to me. My attacker set out to rape someone, I crossed his path at 8:00 a.m. on a Saturday morning, and he went after me. My responsibility lies in the fact that I had the nerve to be outdoors, I guess.

At the trial, I was asked by the Public Defender what I was wearing and I refused to answer the question, and the judge backed me up on that one. I think it's heinous that women get attacked, raped and brutalized, and then are thought to be co-conspirators in their brutalization.

In this instance, I think your therapist also is doing you a disservice. I know how easy it is to get attached to a therapist (the ole transference thing), and not see what they're doing at times, but trying to get a client to accept responsibility (partial or not) for a rape is out of bounds.

I responded because that is quite a load you're carrying and it's not necessary. It was not your fault. Also, if you're working with rape victims, I would hope that you don't ask or imply to them that they're responsible for a vicious attack upon their person. Not that I think you'd do it consciously, but if you're thinking you're responsible for your rape, then you most likely are thinking they're responsible for theirs. That just perpetuates the horror.

Did you ever see Good Will Hunting? It's a different story, but it deals very closely with brutality 'not being your fault.' I highly recommend it.

Take care
M

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Date: Wed, Jul 19, 2000 at 23:45:12 (GMT)
From: Jerry
Email: None
To: Monmot
Subject: It's not your fault
Message:
Did you ever see Good Will Hunting? It's a different story, but it deals very closely with brutality 'not being your fault.' I highly recommend it.

Another good movie with that theme is Ordinary People, a story about a teenage boy who held himself responsible for his brother's death in a drowning accident. At the end, when the psych finally got through to him, he told the kid, 'give yoursef a break'.

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Date: Tues, Jul 18, 2000 at 18:35:27 (GMT)
From: Hal
Email: None
To: Monmot
Subject: So much new age crap justifies abuse !! nt
Message:
dfgh
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Date: Tues, Jul 18, 2000 at 21:14:29 (GMT)
From: Monmot
Email: None
To: Hal
Subject: It's so new age, it's old age, n'est-ce pas? nt
Message:
bmbmbm
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Date: Tues, Jul 18, 2000 at 15:31:49 (GMT)
From: Elaine
Email: None
To: Monmot
Subject: It's not your fault
Message:
You know what, as I look back I almost don't think any of the rapists I encountered were 'real' rapists( ok, one big black guy was definitely a career rapist in my University area.)
More seemed like dumb lugs that saw an opportunity with a sweet thing.

I gave them too much of an opportunity and opening.( The old hitchhiking naivete of the '70's if you can relate - low self-esteem etc - oh, don't forget the old co-dependence girls can be raised with - adds a nice touch.)

I think just a couple of strong signals and they wouldn't even have come near me ---just as they don't now.

I was stupid, bottom line, and I do take responsibility for that.

And ty for the concern of the load I may be carrying - but, Katie's right I was talking about empowerment. If I had just blamed the perp - I don't know if I EVER would have picked my self esteem up off the floor. I faced my part,didn't wallow in it - but accepted and learned from it. And it will never happen again. ( AT least in the way it did - but -never.)

Saw GWH soo long ago - can't remember.

Thanks for your post,Monmot.

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Date: Tues, Jul 18, 2000 at 21:25:38 (GMT)
From: Monmot
Email: None
To: Elaine
Subject: It's not your fault
Message:
It is weird how it affects the sense of self and I see your point. It was empowering for me to dog this guy through the court system even tho it took over three years etc. He even had his father and five brothers in the back of the courtroom trying to intimidate me. The sheriff and the DA, who were very supportive toward me, told me to not let them push me around. Certainly learned a lot.

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Date: Tues, Jul 18, 2000 at 10:31:35 (GMT)
From: Katie
Email: None
To: Monmot
Subject: Monmot, Elaine, Selene, etc.
Message:
I agree that rape is never the victim's FAULT. And in some (many?) cases, rape can't be avoided no matter how many precautions you take - in the example you cited, Monmot, and in Abi's story and many others.

My feeling about what Elaine was saying is that she was talking about empowerment and not FEELING helpless afterwards. At least I hope that is what she was talking about!

There are situations women should stay out of because they are dangerous - for example, hitchiking alone, walking around cities alone in the middle of the night, etc. (I know, this absolutely sucks and makes me very angry, but that's the way it is, unfortunately.) Learning to recognize and stay out of dangerous situations is important. There are things women can do to lower the odds of becoming rape victims, although we cannot prevent it from happening.

Anyway, Monmot, good on you for fighting back in court. That is a truly inspiring story. I agree that it doesn't matter one bit what a rape victim was wearing - good god.

Take care, all of you -
Katie

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Date: Tues, Jul 18, 2000 at 15:55:35 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Katie
Subject: Sometimes yes, sometimes no
Message:
To me it's quite obvious that there are two kinds of rape victims: those that bear some responsibility (however slight) for inducing the attack and those that don't. You know, there are people who get killed by animals at the zoo or even in the wild who are somewhat responsible for provoking an attack. Like by sticking their arms in cages and taunting the animals, for example. There are others that were just walking by when the animal somehow leaped over the wall or whatever. They have asolutely no responsibility whereas the first kind of victims might.

There is indeed such a thing as 'leading a guy on'. It's real. It happens. We all know it. Women who do that must take some responsibility if they play that game reckless as to who they're playing it with. To make the extreme case, if a woman got a guy all the way to the very point where they were about to have sex and then said 'stop' just as he was about to enter her, for no good reason but the sheer 'fun' of it (I said 'extreme'), she's certainly partly responsible if he doesn't stop. Just like if she decides to quit in the middle of the act -- again, for no good reason but because she can -- she's partly responsible (not fully bu any means) -- if he continues.

On the other hand, there's the easier case like the one Monmot describes. Walking around at 8 on a Saturday morning isn't throwing peanuts to the animals in the zoo.

Same thing with con men. Sometimes circumstances like youth, culture or even the smoothness of the con are such that the victim really can't be held accountable. Anyone in similar circumstances might have fallen for it even with reasonable, if nto perfect, 'due diligence'. Were we at fault for falling for Maharaji? I guess it depends on what we believe we should ahve known about such things as gurus, God-realization and cons in general at the time. There might be some premies who were old enough or worldly enough that they really can be blamed for failing to properly consider Maharaji. I don't think that's the case for most of us.

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Date: Tues, Jul 18, 2000 at 22:15:28 (GMT)
From: ham
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Spot on as usual Jim
Message:
'There might be some premies who were old enough or worldly enough that they really can be blamed for failing to properly consider Maharaji. I don't think that's the case for most of us.'

That's the whole nature of junkies, and as a 'spiritual experience' (for want of a better description) junkie that's exactly my case, pathetic really, and even more pathetic really because it took me so long to properly walk! With doubts that never went about gm from day 1, that were amplified by a truly abusive satsang he gave after practicing for 18 months, and still it took me 15 years to fully walk because I was so scared of losing my experiences!

If that isn't a description of a spiritual junkie I'd like to know what is!

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Date: Wed, Jul 19, 2000 at 00:26:21 (GMT)
From: Monmot
Email: None
To: ham
Subject: Velocity Junkie
Message:
Years ago, an acquaintance called me a velocity junkie when I was expounding about some spiritual concept or another. Never forgot that because I thought it was an apt description.
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Date: Tues, Jul 18, 2000 at 23:31:01 (GMT)
From: Stonor
Email: None
To: ham
Subject: Spot on as usual Jim
Message:
Hi ham,

Funny you should be talking about spiritual junkiness. I ran into a couple of teenagers with shaven heads and full Hari Krishna makeup downtown after work. I wanted to scream at them to go out and get drunk or high rather than isolate themselves from the rest of the world in one cult of many. (The downside of reading FV)

Stonor

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Date: Wed, Jul 19, 2000 at 00:32:10 (GMT)
From: Monmot
Email: None
To: Stonor
Subject: Grab them hair handles...
Message:
Stonor:
You shoulda grabbed them by their hair handles and dragged them into a bar, a topless one would be even better, likker 'em up and give 'em a good talkin' to.
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Date: Tues, Jul 18, 2000 at 23:44:50 (GMT)
From: ham
Email: None
To: Stonor
Subject: You should have said it, might have slipped
Message:
through the cracks and cut their journey short in a few years, certainly when I was really walking a few key VERY honest comments made to me years before kept coming back like a case of bad flu to haunt me.

Why do you say the 'downside'?
Coming to terms with our shadow sides is so healthy in comparison to being constantly 'nice', which is where a lot of us got sucked in in the first place.
Personally I think punky mutant thinking AND SPEAKING is the perfect antidote to emotional oversensitivity.

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Date: Tues, Jul 18, 2000 at 23:03:20 (GMT)
From: Lotus Eater
Email: None
To: ham
Subject: from one ex junkie to another
Message:
oh Ham, it's not pathetic, we believed him when he said that the door to the kingdom of heaven was at his feet.

I have clear memories of looking at him and thinking that he was like a candle and we were moths. Even after the experience of getting burnt, we still would go back for more.

Why was I so stupid? because I trusted him, because I believed that he knew what he was doing, I never gave up.

i hope i get to see that program you are talking about, it is interesting and a little scary.......i am distantly, but by blood, a relative of van gogh! Lesley

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Date: Wed, Jul 19, 2000 at 00:04:57 (GMT)
From: ham
Email: None
To: Lotus Eater
Subject: I wish I could say I believed him but
Message:
I never did, or rather I was open to the possibility but the spark never happened, my committment was always to k as a zen meditation, so I gave him loads of slack in a lila'ish way!

Sorry but I do see it as pathetic, naive and spiritually arrogant, the stance I took for years.

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Date: Tues, Jul 18, 2000 at 12:34:00 (GMT)
From: SB
Email: None
To: Katie
Subject: Monmot, Elaine, Selene, etc.
Message:
My feeling about what Elaine was saying is that she was talking about empowerment and not FEELING helpless afterwards. At least I hope that is what she was talking about!

Where did Elaine say that? I read something else then?

Thanks.

S

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Date: Tues, Jul 18, 2000 at 01:08:19 (GMT)
From: Shroomananda
Email: None
To: Elaine
Subject: Personal responsibility, to me, is
Message:
the crux of Maharaji's message, at least these days. One of the promises he asks from aspirants about to receive Knowledge is to give Knowledge a fair chance. If a person gives it a fair chance and decides it's not for him or her, then they can leave. But it's up to them. When I received Knowledge, I had spent months prior investigating it seriously and if it hadn't been what I was looking for, not only would I have left it, I would have let everyone I knew that it was bogus. It was up to me to determine its value. To blame Maharaji for it would be a copout, to me. By the way, you mentioned AA in your post. Isn't it interesting that every AA member I've ever met labels themselves as an alcoholic, not an 'ex' alcoholic? So they accept responsibility for their condition (although some refer to it as a disease) and don't call themselves an 'ex' even if they haven't had a drink for 30 years! I'll always be a person with Knowledge but if I were ever to be so disconnected with my heart that I no longer practiced or listened to him (God forbid!), I wouldn't call myself an 'ex' person with Knowledge. Just someone who has Knowledge but no longer practices or listens. Capice?
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Date: Tues, Jul 18, 2000 at 13:54:58 (GMT)
From: Elaine
Email: None
To: Shroomananda
Subject: Personal responsibility, to me, is
Message:
Yes, I've thought I probably wouldn't say 'ex' either. Just someone that doesn't practice. However, I like meditation and intend to continue using the techs I learned ( barrogan and original music tech and sometimes original light tech -not with the 'squeezing', but finger positions). I will probably always incorporate other techniques.

I have every (exaggeration) picture or carving of every master I find in an art store,plus saints in my meditation area. (OK, not Sai Baba and Muktananda).

As it is - other premies would not consider me a premie in the 'true' sense of the word. Thus,'crappy premie'.

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Date: Tues, Jul 18, 2000 at 17:35:40 (GMT)
From: cq
Email: None
To: Elaine
Subject: Are you really a 'guroupie' then, Elaine?
Message:
Your pictures of all these 'masters' and 'saints' - I'd be interested to know what it means to you, Elaine. Does something 'rub off' on you when you look at them?

(PS I'll try my best not to be flippant or disrespectful if you do decide to answer this).

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Date: Wed, Jul 19, 2000 at 00:35:15 (GMT)
From: Elaine
Email: None
To: cq
Subject: Yes
Message:
nt
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Date: Tues, Jul 18, 2000 at 02:40:28 (GMT)
From: Michael
Email: None
To: Shroomananda
Subject: Personal responsibility, to me, is
Message:
Shroomananda wrote: 'but if I were ever to be so disconnected
with my heart that I no longer practiced or listened to him...'

This is quite a claim you are making. Do you wish to infer that all of us who have realized that M is a fraud and his 'knowledge' a hoax are 'disconnected with our hearts?' Do you realize what a spiritually arrogant statement that is? Do you think that if one is connected to their brain they are disconnected from their heart? I think that many of us here have re-connected with our hearts and are more compassionate now that we are no longer under the Lard's sway.

When I was first interested in M's 'knowledge,' I had to prove that I was worthy and I had to prove my devotion to M. In those days one had to have such a longing for K that one was willing to give up friends and family before admittance to a K session. I was told that I would see God's face, I would finally have access to the true spiritual knowledge and other blather. Are you saying that M is not responsible, that I must take responsibility for being lied to? Perhaps you have received a bit too much 'ananda' from 'shrooms.

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Date: Tues, Jul 18, 2000 at 03:06:45 (GMT)
From: Shroomananda
Email: None
To: Michael
Subject: Ex-premies are more compassionate now??
Message:
Jerry wrote, 'GO FUCK YOURSELF, ASSHOLE!' and in another post, 'Take your gift and shove it up your ass..'

Michael wrote, '..many of us here have re-connected with our hearts and are more compassionate now that we are no longer under the Lard's sway.'

Shroomananda asks: Is Jerry manifesting one of the many here who have re-connected with their hearts or one of the few who haven't? Do you consider his comments compassionate?

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Date: Tues, Jul 18, 2000 at 13:24:13 (GMT)
From: Michael
Email: None
To: Shroomananda
Subject: Ex-premies are more compassionate now??
Message:
You avoided the questions I asked you. So Jerry insulted, so I called the guru a name; as a premie or PWK or whatever you call yourselves nowdays, you are use to rationalizing all the time anyway. The fact is that although we may be rude here on the site, we are compassionate in the real world. One might say that this site is a symbol of compassion as we are trying to help others avoid being trapped.

Now, without your little avoidance techniques, answer the questions I asked you in my first post, or are you unable to do so?

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Date: Tues, Jul 18, 2000 at 17:55:24 (GMT)
From: Shroomananda
Email: None
To: Michael
Subject: Answer to your first post......
Message:
First of all, I said that if I was so disconnected from my heart, etc. That statement had nothing to do with you or anyone else. Why do you infer it does? Secondly, if you think that Maharaji lied to you, that's how you feel. I don't feel like he's lied to me. One man's truth is another man's lie, I guess. I'm amazed by what Maharaji has accomplished in this world. He's given self-Knowledge to millions of people in the world. Why do so many aspirants line up to receive Knowledge when he goes to India? If Maharaji was such a big scam artist and liar, you'd think that the Indian people would be the first ones on the planet to rebel against him but they love him more than ever and more and more people come to him to receive his gift. Most of the people on this site seem to me to be blaming him for getting 'conned' but even if you got conned by Maharaji at least you'll know what to look for next time. Once burned, twice shy. But do you know anyone else on this planet that is doing what he's doing for so many people? Of course there are going to be some who say what you guys say but there are many more who say that his Knowledge has benefited them tremendously.
Anyway, at least you guys got to investigate and receive his Knowledge even if it wasn't for you. How many on this planet have never even heard about him let alone investigate and receive Knowledge? I support your right to gripe about it. I just don't get it. It's a gift! Jai satchitanand!
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Date: Tues, Jul 18, 2000 at 03:28:07 (GMT)
From: Jerry
Email: None
To: Shroomananda
Subject: Ex-premies are more compassionate now??
Message:
Fuck you, asshole.
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Date: Tues, Jul 18, 2000 at 03:22:52 (GMT)
From: gerry
Email: None
To: Shroomananda
Subject: Ex-premies are more compassionate now??
Message:
I consider your boorish intrusion onto this site, an EX-premie site, to be quite insensitive, if not down right provocative.

You like being in your cult? Fine then. There's a whole lotta people out there that gave it their all and got nothing in return.

You don't even have the compassion to consider their objections, much less empathize with their feelings. That being the case, I find Jerry's remarks quite appropriate.

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Date: Tues, Jul 18, 2000 at 05:09:56 (GMT)
From: Super Brat
Email: None
To: gerry
Subject: What about Elaine to Hal? Provocative?
Message:
She cannot talk that crap here and get away with it, spitting with her victim 'voice' how bad we are.

Are you still supporting the sneaky fly?

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Date: Tues, Jul 18, 2000 at 14:11:40 (GMT)
From: gerry
Email: None
To: Super Brat
Subject: crossed wires, SB?
Message:
I'm not really a big supporter of Elaine, SB. I wish she'd face the music and quit being such a spiritual air head, but there's nothing anyone can do for her, except counter her silly banalities with a little slice of life. But she seems content with her 'Wonder Bread.'
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Date: Tues, Jul 18, 2000 at 20:41:12 (GMT)
From: SB
Email: None
To: gerry
Subject: Wonder bread: LOL (nt)
Message:
nt
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Date: Tues, Jul 18, 2000 at 01:03:57 (GMT)
From: Selene
Email: None
To: Elaine
Subject: no way
Message:
That is so wrong. No.
I don't kmow your definition of rape Elaine. But mine is forced sex. Totally against my wishes.
Why should any woman accept responsibility for that?
And HOW can you compare that to the premie/guru thing.
The two have NOTHING to do with each other.
It's apples and oranges and I am insulted as a woman that you would do this comparison. I thought you had more going for you than that. And you work with rape victims?????????
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Date: Tues, Jul 18, 2000 at 15:10:40 (GMT)
From: Elaine
Email: None
To: Selene
Subject: no way
Message:
Selene,

I don't work with rape victims.Never said that.

Yes, your definition of rape would be mine,basically.

You don't know the situations I put myself in and indeed I take responsibility for some of the deal.Maybe another rape victim - blaming herself - would need help 'NOT blaming herself'.
That was not me -I took no responsibility and 'blamed' it totally on the perp. It happened many times - I 'put' myself into situations that were stupid and then was a young wimp that didn't know what to do -signals were not sent out right.
Ever taken a self defense course? Anyway.

From what I've read here -I never thought it would offend someone comparing 'crimes'.
Sorry if it offended you or that you got upset.Really didn't think it was such a biggy - the comparison.

I am almost constantly being misinterpreted - like from left feild usually - too often to go back and correct a misconception.

But, this one I wanted to talk to you about.

Elaine

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Date: Tues, Jul 18, 2000 at 16:34:09 (GMT)
From: Selene
Email: None
To: Elaine
Subject: no way
Message:
You don't know the situations I put myself in and indeed I take responsibility for some
of the deal.Maybe another rape victim - blaming herself - would need help 'NOT blaming herself'.
That was not me -I took no responsibility and 'blamed' it totally on the perp. It happened many times - I 'put' myself into situations that were stupid and then was a young wimp that didn't know what to do -signals were not sent out right.

Then if you truly believe that what can I tell you? I would not call it rape I don't knwo what the hell I'd call it but I persoanlly wouldn't call it rape if I truly believed that.

And you didn't ask but you did mention being attacked here from left field a lot. I have followd some of it. Not much of it but some And based on our exchange just now I can see how it would happen. You trigger me, see that it has clearly pushed a buttom and come back with this:

Sorry if it offended you or that you got upset. Really didn't think it was such a biggy -the comparison.

uh??? nice one. whatever. I am ok about it. I will continue to feel strongly about this issue and believe what I do. But I can see why you have upset people. So have I, here.

But one difference that people who are not ex's seem so outraged about at times is: the main purpose of the site is as an ex-premie site. So like it or not, there is going to be a certain bias when someone delares them selves a premie, or neither.

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Date: Tues, Jul 18, 2000 at 15:59:37 (GMT)
From: gerry
Email: None
To: Elaine
Subject: You know a little NLP, right?
Message:
I am almost constantly being misinterpreted - like from left feild usually - too often to go back and correct a misconception.


Richard Bandler, the creator of NLP is found of saying 'The meaning of your communication is the response you get.'

Elaine, I think you are so used to deceiving yourself and other people you have no idea where the truth lies, so to speak. To me, this trait in you is beginning to look like an incurable character flaw. So sorry for you, but I really wish you would take your pathology and go some where else. Anywhere else, but OFF this website.

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Date: Tues, Jul 18, 2000 at 00:17:42 (GMT)
From: gerry
Email: None
To: Elaine
Subject: I'm not Jewels but I wonder why
Message:
If you think you had ANY responsibility for being raped when you were very young, you are indeed sick and so is your therapist.

This whole 'accept responsibility' trip is starting to smell suspiciously like the New Age saw, 'you create your own reality.'

No wonder you have trouble telling truth from falsehoods, if this is the kind of crap you are pumping into yourself.

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Date: Tues, Jul 18, 2000 at 01:55:07 (GMT)
From: SB
Email: None
To: gerry
Subject: What kind of therapist could have said that to Ela
Message:
Elaine. Is she lying once more to provoque distraction?

What therapist could have said that stupidity?

1- The one in her imagination. She doesn't have one.
2-A fake therapist.
3-Therapist maharaji.

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Date: Tues, Jul 18, 2000 at 01:25:39 (GMT)
From: Salam
Email: None
To: everyone
Subject: I'm not Jewels but I wonder why
Message:
Jewels tossed a hot potato and we ended up holding it while she went brain jumping.

what she said, is that the truth is perverted if the person likes the music and falls in love with the musician.
But the truth is already perverted because maharaji and knowlegde can not be seperated. To recieve knowledge is to accept maharaj, there is no two ways around it. Jewel obviously does not see that.

Salam

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Date: Mon, Jul 17, 2000 at 17:03:18 (GMT)
From: Joe
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: World's THINNEST Books
Message:
My Plan to Catch the Real Killers by O.J. Simpson

My Inspirational Speaches by Dr. Kevorkian

My Best Beauty Secrets by Janet Reno

A Travel Guide to Detroit

Explanation and Analysis of Maharaji's Devotional Period(1977 -1982) by Glen Whittaker

Why We Are Not a Cult by Elan Vital

AND

How I Never Claimed to be God by Maharaji

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Date: Tues, Jul 18, 2000 at 04:23:25 (GMT)
From: Lakes Lover
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: You forgot three
Message:
'In Your Dreams'

'French Man Hate Detroit Because They Didn't See Anything: For Them Is Museums or Nothing'

I would change A Travel Guide to Detroit to:

Wrong Travel Guide Book of Just Museums zzzzzzzzzzzzz

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Date: Mon, Jul 17, 2000 at 16:58:11 (GMT)
From: JtF
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: Propogation2000 (from my D.C. mole)
Message:
This is just a whole bunch of shit!


Hello,

You are invited to a Workshop on 'telling people about K. and M.' at 5:30pm
on Sunday, July 23rd at the Hyatt Regency Bethesda.

A satellite broadcast presentation is scheduled for earlier that afternoon starting
at 4:00 p.m. at the Hyatt. The workshop will be in the same room as the broadcast
presentation, starting about 30-40 minutes after the broadcast ends......(at approximately
5:30 p.m.)

At this workshop, you will hear and learn ways that others are using, about materials for propagation, ways to follow-up with a new person, and how you can tell people and be more comfortable in 'telling people about K and M.'

The workshop will be fun and very informative for all. There will be videos, information shared, and lots of smiles. The workshop will be 2.5 hours with breaks.

Many are excited about 'telling people about K. and M.', and want to strengthen our propagation efforts here in the Wash DC Metro Area. There are many things to do. The first thing is 'inviting people' to hear about K.; either by inviting them to listen to an audio or video that you present to them, or inviting them to an introductory event or satellite broadcast. An essential to telling someone about K. is being comfortable, confident, and focused (on K.... the feeling). The workshop will assist you with this one-on-one interaction and the follow-up interactions that may occur.

Please RSVP to me via email if you are able to attend; so the workshop and exercises can be
planned appropriately for everyone's comfort and enjoyment.

Thanks and I look forward to seeing you there.

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Date: Tues, Jul 18, 2000 at 01:47:01 (GMT)
From: Call
Email: None
To: JtF
Subject: Hyatt Hotel: Cult leader's having a kissing feet
Message:
ceremony? To attract new cult memebers did you say?
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Date: Mon, Jul 17, 2000 at 22:19:43 (GMT)
From: Jean-Michel
Email: None
To: JtF
Subject: Same workshops in France these days
Message:
according to one of my moles.

Not much going on here anymore, 2/3 of premies don't come to videos anymore, and premies are fed up paying (monthly subscribing) for satellites broadcasts: poor quality, 1/2 hour long, same stuff all the time, no live events. Most premies haven't seen Rawat for years, and become desinterested .......

EV keeps asking for more money all the time, and updating statistics .......

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Date: Mon, Jul 17, 2000 at 18:36:28 (GMT)
From: Joe
Email: None
To: JtF
Subject: Propogation2000 (No different than 1975)
Message:
Hey, I got a different announcement from Elan Vital:

Hello,

You are invited to a Workshop/Programming Session on 'telling people about K. and M. even though you know it's a cult, while acting sincere and honest' at 5:30pm on Sunday, July 23rd at the Hyatt Regency Bethesda.

A satellite broadcast presentation is scheduled for earlier that afternoon starting at 4:00 p.m. at the Hyatt, in order to prepare you for dealing with cognitive dissonance and ignoring your own better judgment that Maharaji is a fraud. The workshop will be in the same room as the broadcast presentation, starting about 30-40 mines after the broadcast ends......(at approximately
5:30 p.m.) These presentations will deal with how to lie about Maharaji's past, how to avoid discussion of Maharaji's obscenely extravagent lifestyle, and how to change the subject, and/or bald-face lie whenever asked if Maharaji ever claimed to be god, the 'Lord of the Universe,' the 'Superior Power in Person,' or greater than Jesus Christ, Krishna and Mohammad.

At this workshop, you will hear and learn ways that others are using to be able to lie without showing it, about materials for propagation, ways to follow-up/recruit a new person without them thinking that is what you are doing, and how you can tell people and be more comfortable in 'telling people about K and M., even though you know it's a cult.'

The workshop will be fun and very informative for all. There will be videos, information shared, and lots of smiles, especially those fake cult-smiles that are so important in propogation. The workshop will be 2.5 hours with breaks.

Many are excited about 'telling people about K. and M. even though you know it's a cult', and want to strengthen our propagation efforts here in the Wash DC Metro Area. There are many things to do. The first thing is 'inviting/recruiting people' to hear about K. without them know that's what you are doing; either by inviting them to listen to an audio or video that you present to them, or inviting them to an introductory event or satellite broadcast. An essential to telling someone about K. is being comfortable, confident, and focused (on K.... the feeling) while simultaneously, and in a synchronized fashion, uttering bald-faced lies. The workshop will assist you with this one-on-one indoctrination and the follow-up indoctrinations that may occur.

Please RSVP to me via email if you are able to attend; so the workshop and exercises can be planned appropriately for everyone's comfort, enjoyment and brainwashing.

Thanks and I look forward to seeing you there.

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Date: Mon, Jul 17, 2000 at 20:13:11 (GMT)
From: Salam
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: love your post
Message:
lol

Salam

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Date: Mon, Jul 17, 2000 at 20:11:55 (GMT)
From: Tonette
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: Got a great laugh! nt
Message:
nt
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Date: Mon, Jul 17, 2000 at 19:12:18 (GMT)
From: JtF
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: Propogation2000 (More Deceitful than 1975)
Message:
Back then we were not embarrassed to tell people that 'we're talking Lord of the Universe, satguru etc.'(this makes me cringe)

Now, those few that aren't embarrassed to tell people about rawat have to be manipulated into manipulating. These people (for the most part) will not even realize that they are being taught sales/recruiting techniques very much like those being used by MLM/Network Mkt. organizations.

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Date: Mon, Jul 17, 2000 at 19:31:55 (GMT)
From: Joe
Email: None
To: JtF
Subject: Propogation2000 (More Deceitful than 1975)
Message:
It probably is more deceitful, but I remember in 1975, there was an attempt to 'propogate' by saying it was a 'meditation' that it was all about, at least at first.

I remember we went around pretending to be doing a survey on 'meditation,' which was a lie. The idea was to get people to start talking about meditation and then slip in that the questioner did a 'meditation' and how great it was.

We also had those stupid posters that said: 'Discover the Sunny Kingdom through Meditation.' Remember those?

Anyhow the goal of this was to get somebody to go to an 'introductory program' at which the least-hippie-cult-like premies were dragged out to put on a little introductory event, at which the worshipping of Maharaji that were all engaged in, and his claims of divinity, were strictly off limits.

It was only in the 'follow-up' programs that people were gradually indoctrinated into the cult-world of guru-worship and slave-dedication.

Of course, we had 'nightly satsang' then, but we made special efforts to tone down the rhetoric if a 'new person' was in the audience.

But just like today, no one was considered 'ready' for knowledge, unless they at least said they had no doubts and recognized Maharaji as the living god, and were ready to dedicate their lives to him.

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Date: Mon, Jul 17, 2000 at 20:05:34 (GMT)
From: JtF
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: Propogation2000 (More Deceitful than 1975)
Message:
Thanks for reminding me...I had forgotten that EFFORT.

Another thing I'm wondering about is how can these current cult members find many new people to run their shit at...most of their friends/fellow workers have resisted many previous attempts to victimize them...I wonder how many of these premies are the butt of jokes around the workplace.

Most probably knew to shut up a long time ago.

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Date: Mon, Jul 17, 2000 at 20:55:48 (GMT)
From: Joe
Email: None
To: JtF
Subject: Propogation2000 (More Deceitful than 1975)
Message:
Right, I think most premies gave up years ago ever attempting to coerce anyone into receiving knowledge. I was interested in what Elaine said, who is still a premie. She said the actually recommends OTHER kinds of meditation to people who are interested in it because of the bullshit one has to put up with in the Maharahji-cult aspirant process. I thought that was a revealing comment.

Considering the minuscule number of people who are receiving knowledge in the West, it's fairly clear that premies don't tell people about Maharaji, or at least they have already hit up their friends and relatives to the point there is no one left to tell.

Plus, if they are like most premies, they probably have lost friends and strained family relationships because they got people involved who thought the whole thing was nuts, or they actually got knowledge, but rejected it and Maharaji at some point because of all the nonsense. At some point, even if one remains a premie, you would tend to shut up about it.

Of course, there are some 'die hard' premies who will do 'propogation' just because they think Maharaji wants them to, to matter how ridiculous they feel and how embarrassing it is.

Do you remember a period in 1979 when there was a trend in Elan Vital (started by Ira Woods in Boston) when we were expected to take a picture of the Lord of the Universe out into the parks of a city and start screaming about the Lord? I remember in DC, we went to Farragut Square, where a lot of office workers ate lunch and did that. We even got on TV, in the most sarcastic, negative television segement, in which we looked like the raving cult-members we were. By the way, that 'propogation' effort was a total failure, just like everything else we tried after about 1974.

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Date: Mon, Jul 17, 2000 at 23:26:11 (GMT)
From: So glad
Email: that's over!
To: Joe
Subject: Propogation2000 (More Deceitful than 1975)
Message:
I'm psyched to think I'm free of that humiliating servitude!

Doesn't this just get at the crux of things? Having to think about whether you sincerely would want someone else to buy into the whole trip, with M as 'the Ultimate One' and the whole silly charade surrounding him, is just such an indication of how YOU really feel about it. I realized I don't have an iota of inspiration to do that; K & M must not be for me!

If you're honest with yourself, you know that even if the internal experience is real, you're also getting quite a bill of goods attached.

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Date: Mon, Jul 17, 2000 at 14:19:04 (GMT)
From: jondon
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: Dear Visions International
Message:
As I'm sure most of you know,if you received your Keeping in Touch catalogue, courtesy of Visions International, a subsidiary of ElanVital, a non-profit orginization, headed by the cult leader known as The Lord of the Universe, GURU Maharaji, the following is the Broadcast Schedule for Satellite Broadcasts for the month of July 2000 (of which half of the month is over) in North America:

Sunday 16 (yesterday): 1pm PDT

A compilation of talks from events over the past decade (Borrrrriiing) Save your $15.00 Suggested Donation and go see X-Men, it is tremendous.

Sunday July 23: 1pm PDT Rebroadcast Thurs July 20: 5pm PDT

For all audiences. People who are interested in learning more about K (read: interested in being deceived) are invited to view this broadcast. Save your $15.00 Suggested Donation and go see The Perfect Storm - See how people get caught up in a storm of events that leads to their ultimate demise.

Sunday July 30: 1pm PDT Rebroadcast Thurs Aug 3: 5pm PDT

This broadcast focuses on participation and how people around the globe are helping M make K available. (See how an Ant Farm works). Save your $15.00 Suggested Donation and go see The Chicken Farm - A story about a coop of chickens trapped within a cult and their attempts to free themselves from the grips of their Master. A wonderfully poignant analogy.

Oh, there is only an $8.00 Suggested Donation for the July 2nd Broadcast (which occurred 2 weeks ago!!!!). Come on guys. If you're gonna spread the propaganda, get it out earlier. You think Hitler would have gotten anything accomplished if his Propaganda machine was 2 weeks behind the 8-ball. Now, let's get your asses in gear over there.

Recent Satellite broadcasts are also available on video for the same Suggested Donation of $15.00. Save the $, go rent some videos from Blockbuster, at least we know what Wayne Hyzenga (owner of Blockbuster) is doing with his profit.

And how come you don't offer Lord of the Universe? You could have picked up that copy off of Ebay this week and made some copies and sold them for a Suggested Donation of $14.85 (which is about what it seems worth, to somebody-on Ebay).

Sincerely, jondon

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Date: Mon, Jul 17, 2000 at 16:10:46 (GMT)
From: Boredon
Email: None
To: jondon
Subject: Delusions International
Message:
As I'm sure most of you know,if you received your Out of Touch catalogue, courtesy of Bitters International, a subsidiary of NonVital, a non-profit orginization, headed by the ex-cult leaders known as The Bores of the Universe, CU Later, the following is the Schedule for Notalot Postings for the month of July 2000 (of which half of the month is over) in North America:

Sunday 16 (yesterday): 1pm PDT

A compilation of talks from events over two decades ago. (Borrrrriiing) Save your 15 minutes and go see X-Men, it is tremendous.

Sunday July 23: 1pm PDT Reposted every Thurs July 20: 5pm PDT

For all audiences. People who are interested in learning nothing (read: interested in being deceived again) are invited to view this broadcast. Save your hours and go see The Gladiator - See how people get caught up in past events that leads to their ultimate suprise.

Sunday July 30: 1pm PDT Reposted Thurs Aug 3: 5pm PDT

This broadcast focuses on participation and how people around the globe are still doing nothing. (See how an Ant Farm works). Save your 15 minutes and go see The Co-op - A story about a co-op of cynics trapped within a timewarp and their attempts to dig themselves deeper into the grip of a new Master. A wonderfully poignant analogy.

Oh, there is only a 2 hour waste for the July posting.Come on guys. If you're gonna spread the propaganda, get it out earlier. You think Hitler would have gotten anything accomplished if his Propaganda machine was 25 years behind the 8-ball. Now, let's get your asses in gear over there.

Recent postings are also available for the same investment of 15 minutes or save the time and go rent some videos from Blockbuster, at least we know what Wayne Hyzenga (owner of Blockbuster) is doing with his time.

And how come we don't offer Bard of the Universe? Because you could have picked up Porky's Revenge and watched that over 8 nights instead of reading this.

Sincerely
Boredon

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Date: Mon, Jul 17, 2000 at 12:57:55 (GMT)
From: VP
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: FA-someone used my name to post below
Message:
I wasn't at the computer on Sunday, yet someone posted as VP in the thread entitled 'Zen' below.

It may have been a mistake, but I just wanted to make you aware.

If this happens again, I will assume it was intentional and will ask that this person be blocked from the forum. Wanted to give this person a 'heads up' in case it was just a mistake.

Thanks,
VP

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Date: Mon, Jul 17, 2000 at 15:21:08 (GMT)
From: FA
Email: None
To: VP
Subject: FA-someone used my name to post below
Message:
I changed the handle VP

FA

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Date: Mon, Jul 17, 2000 at 19:23:39 (GMT)
From: VP
Email: None
To: FA
Subject: FA-someone used my name to post below
Message:
Thanks.
I guess that guy needs to use a new handle, not VP. SB said it was Zen (?)
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Date: Tues, Jul 18, 2000 at 20:48:41 (GMT)
From: SB
Email: None
To: VP
Subject: Which post is that VP?
Message:
Just curious. Thanks. ;)
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Date: Tues, Jul 18, 2000 at 23:23:39 (GMT)
From: VP
Email: None
To: SB
Subject: Which post is that VP?
Message:
Hi, SB
You can find it in the inactive messages.
The thread was started by Zen. The FA changed the from field in that post to read,'Another VP in Spain'
Bye for now,
VP
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Date: Wed, Jul 19, 2000 at 03:25:37 (GMT)
From: SB
Email: None
To: VP
Subject: Spain, eh? hmmmm...who can that be?
Message:

Did you go to the spanish forum yesterday? Maybe somebody posted with your name there too! LOL

:0

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Date: Mon, Jul 17, 2000 at 12:48:26 (GMT)
From: Salam
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: The jewel of truth
Message:
What you are searching for is within you.

Premies appear to be hoked on this statement, it seems to turn them on, like pigs in mud. Has maharaji trade marked it in his name. This statement does not appear to apply in maharaji's world, because knowlege and maharaji are inseprabale, one can not have knowledge without him, which means that you are always dependent on someone on the outside, that defenitly contradict the original message?

premies!!!!?????

Salam

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Date: Mon, Jul 17, 2000 at 13:15:53 (GMT)
From: cq
Email: None
To: Salam
Subject: The jewel of truth
Message:
I think the Maha (and others before him - Ram Das f'rinstance) used it originally as a contrast to looking for happiness and fulfilment 'out there' in the 'materialistic' world.

I'd like to see the Maha try and live for just a month or two (preferably longer)without any of the materialistic attachments he's grown used to! See how far his 'within inside' would get him then!

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Date: Mon, Jul 17, 2000 at 21:08:27 (GMT)
From: JohnT
Email: None
To: cq
Subject: The nastiness of jewels
Message:
jewels wrote: those that fall under his spell...that's their problem, not his. (in Pray tell me oh wise one, exactly what experience -:- Sun, Jul 16, 2000 at 20:42:34).

The spell being that 'the answer's within you - but I'm the key'.

Still, at least we know jewel's ethics, eh?

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Date: Tues, Jul 18, 2000 at 17:00:59 (GMT)
From: cq
Email: None
To: JohnT
Subject: reminds me of
Message:
... Hansel and Gretel in the House of Candy?

'You can't get out of the oven? That's your problem, not mine ... heh, heh, heh'

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Date: Mon, Jul 17, 2000 at 22:03:00 (GMT)
From: Salam
Email: None
To: anyone
Subject: See what they think
Message:
http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Ithaca/8154/
------------------------------
The sausage in the sandwich.

from ;Name: Tim Matheson
Location: USA
Email: tim_matheson2000@yahoo.com
Date: Wed, Jun 28, 2000 at 05:56:35 (EDT)

My message: Hi-I'm an old-time premie just getting back into practicing HIS Knowledge. I used to live in Boulder in the 70's until I found my wife in bed with 2 large women. I'm back now...premies please join my club----http://clubs.yahoo.com/clubs/ilovemaharaji
-----------------------------------------
SB, its yours.

Name: ivonne yolanda perez celis
Location: Moyobamba, Peru
Email: ivon.perez@essalud.sld.pe
Date: Thurs, Mar 30, 2000 at 19:23:37 (EST)

My message: Hello, a im speak inglish very well, but understang. Hola me siento muy feliz al poder contactarme con personas que conocen a Maharahi, en la ciudad donde me encuentro soy la unica premi, ya que mis padres muy pronto se iran a vivir a Lima, siento mucho amor y me encantaria que me escriban a mi Email a fin de poder conocernos y hablar sobre este tema tan importante que es la vida y poder ser felices gracias a estwe aliento y a lo que un día con tanto amor nos revelo Maharahi.

-------------------------------------
gagagagagag

Name: angelo Malfitano
Location: 161-77th Street,Brooklyn,N.Y.United States
Email: amalfi4496@aol.com
Date: Thurs, Mar 16, 2000 at 10:15:06 (EST)

My message: FREE FLIGHT This is your hour my soul You can fly away from books and art into another world. The day is erased, the lesson done. Now you can merge,silent,gazing,pondering. the Holy which you love best. Free flight with light and wind and a blessed breath. enlighting,enlighting,enlighting. For all my past,present and future Sisters,Brothers in this wonderfuluniverse,my pleasure was in our exchange of experiences with this Knowledge in loving one another from what ever walk of life we all came from made no difference for we are all of the same Father,Mother. Fortunate are we to have crossed path with our Maharaji,no time has passed we are all still together even though we are in diaspora, we are all of us in the True Love Boat hang in there grab the oars,or the barnacles, just hang in there,stay strong, keep the Faith, no thing changes just imagination.Stay with your heart,listen to your Heart, speak with your Heart,it will never deceive you. So happy to be given this opportunity to write to any persons on this internet you have my E-mail you can write if you like to I will answer Many blessings from that source we all know and Love.

-------------------------------------------
grow up

Name: CJ
Location: Minnesota,MN USA
Email: banjolee@uswest.nt
Date: Wed, Mar 01, 2000 at 21:35:40 (EST)

My message: I Love my Gu Maraji, I miss him very much. I have a deep despising of any one calling KNOWLEDGE 'k' Whats THAT about? I am sad that anyone would do that.

-------------------------------------
More for SB

Name: william (bill) bburkenroad
Location: san diego, ca
Email: wburkenr@san.rr.com
Date: Wed, Feb 09, 2000 at 14:52:24 (EST)

My message: Hello to all. It is very nice to see messages from persons that have been involved with Maharaj ji. I would be very interested in hearing from anyone at all. Si alguien habla espanol, tambien puedo communicar en espanol. I received K in 1972, lived with premies in La Jolla, and then in the Los Angeles area on Wilton pl., wilshire, as well as being in premnagar in india in 72. I am only attempting to assimilate knowledge with what I do. I have two kids, and am trying to direct their course to pass on this experience of a spiritual reality. Maharaj Ji, I miss you being where I can be near. I worry about my children, and not taking this life's opportunity to grow closer to you. My heart seems to know, however, happiness is elusive. I know John & Jane Finch in San Diego, and that's about the only contact I have. I went to the final video presentation meeting in Carlsbad, Nov, 99, and I appreciated it very much. Where do I get some videos? I can't find the email site. Love, William Burkenroad

----------------------------------------------------------------
That's the spirit

Name: stephen bennett
Location: huddersfiel
Email: stephen@sbennett69.fsnet.co.uk
Date: Tuesday, Jan 11, 2000 at 19:01:40 (EST)

My message: I miss you Maharaj Ji. I look forward to seeing you again. By the Grace.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
This person needs help desperatly, 21 years of brainwashing are showing, be kind and e-mail her/him

Name: Janet Schwartz
Location: Venice Beach on the Pacific--Los Angeles
Email: flawedgenius@webtv.net
Date: Thurs, Sep 16, 1999 at 04:12:17 (EDT)

low point in my life and could do with a little of his love again. I was only a little girl but even children know when they meet someone so beautiful. I'm 34 in jan so you'll know how young i was. I wasnt allowed to have k then at the time i met loads of mahatmas being so young and going to satsang by myself i seemed to meet everyone it was 14 years later that i finally was allowed to get k. I still meditate but feel very lonely.
---------------------------------------------------------------------
??

Name: Lee de Montagnac
Location: Kingston, Surrey, UK
Email: lee@demont.co.uk
Date: Sat, Nov 13, 1999 at 17:02:46 (EST)

My message: Hi there I'm now an ex-premie but have a lot of good feelings for my old premie friends.
---------------------------------------------------

The truth is, you have been duped

Name: Mike Canuel
Location: canada
Email: mikedubois67@hotmail.com
Date: Mon, Nov 01, 1999 at 16:13:30 (EST)

My message: write to me and tell me the truth. here is another adress wolfpie@hotmail.com
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

oh jolly wolly, i am liking maharaji

Name: Parmeshbhai Bhavsar
Location: India, GUjarat, Ahmedabad
Email: divineimpex@satyam.net.in
Date: Sat, Oct 23, 1999 at 16:15:54 (EDT)

My message: Jay Sacchidanand, I am Premi. I work in PR team. My wife & I very very thankful to getting knowledge & super joy. We have no words to express our experience within. We are ready to secrifise for your mission. My ID no is 037855.Department: Public relation, & center: DC2347. Thanks A lot Premi

----------------------------------------------------------
Gerry, do not scare him off.

Name: Janet Schwartz
Location: Venice Beach on the Pacific--Los Angeles
Email: flawedgenius@webtv.net
Date: Thurs, Sep 16, 1999 at 04:12:17 (EDT)

. I miss no meat fish or egg vegetarianism. I miss community centers and community businesses. We have gotten too worldly and too egotistical. we made a wrong turn somewhere. the new elan vital hrts. i dont like it. i dont love i. i cant bring my friends-they are repeled by the conformity and the control.the street kids i know need this knowledge but wouldnt come near a program. thestudents on campus need it but scoff at the sight of us. we are going to be a memory, a flash in the pan, a curiosity that was there

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Date: Mon, Jul 17, 2000 at 08:25:03 (GMT)
From: SecretServante
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: I just had to say that
Message:
a speechless state of being
no doubt
is awaiting inside
not outside
This is where the creator resides.
and he's got really big boots
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Date: Mon, Jul 17, 2000 at 13:18:04 (GMT)
From: cq
Email: None
To: SecretServante
Subject: big boots?? you don't mean big boobs, do you? (nt)
Message:
or is he too big for his boobs?
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Date: Mon, Jul 17, 2000 at 10:50:34 (GMT)
From: Zelda
Email: None
To: SecretServante
Subject: OOOOOOO! Sexy! big boots and he lives inside!
Message:
And he is bigger than anything isnt he?
And he is powerfull and we are really all very weak under his gaze huh.
And we dont want to displease him
and when he is happy our lives are complete.
Ah my precious lord of the Unipurse.
who has given us this precious gift
All hail
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Date: Mon, Jul 17, 2000 at 21:25:02 (GMT)
From: SecretServante
Email: None
To: george
Subject: OOOOOOO! inside!
Message:
not boobs
not shoes
quess again
it's an cyber term
sounds like.....
a soccer futbol kicker
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Date: Mon, Jul 17, 2000 at 06:57:51 (GMT)
From: Zelda
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: Notice to Premies
Message:
You have been Duped.
Deep peace inside is not the result of practicing Knowledge
Maraji wants you to think otherwise
You need to know this.
Zelda
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Date: Mon, Jul 17, 2000 at 21:12:11 (GMT)
From: Pauline Premie
Email: None
To: Zelda
Subject: Notice to Premies
Message:
Zelda, you are not having that understanding. It's such a gift, but you are confused. See, as Duped Premie said, we premies would rather be duped with Maharaji than be clear and thoughtful without him.

I remember one time that great saint John Hampton Ji, gave a satsang, I mean speech, in which he said that 'if this is a cult, then I want to be in a cult, and if I am brainwashed, then I love being brainwashed.' He got cheers and applause from the premies who understood how true that statement was.

I was thinking about how unbrainwashed I was the other day, after listening to 11 hours straight of Maharaji's videos, going to a satellite event, making a donation to Maharaji, and telling my boss how participation is more important than my job. It was really blissful. Although I am unemployed again, and still sleeping in the trunk of my car, I feel so privileged and special -- certainly more privileged and special than you, Zelda, whom I feel sorry for in the most patronizing fashion you can imagine. I just pray to Maharaji that you gain the gift of that understanding.

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Date: Tues, Jul 18, 2000 at 02:02:35 (GMT)
From: Anoder Premy
Email: None
To: Pauline Premie
Subject: Pauline: Can I move in with you?
Message:
I'm on the steet, sleeping on the beach, by the grace of maharaji. He wants to teach me something, I know. So much mercy. My friends tell me that he wants to teach me to don't give my money to strangers; him. I laugh, because they don't know about lilas. Yes. I rather sleep on the beach and have maharaji IN my heart that anything else. I came to this world to be with HIM, to live the magic of his love, to kiss his feet. He is my breath. Oh guru, I'm your servant.

I'm sorry pauline, I got lost in my heart. So? Is there a place for me in the trunk of your car or not?

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Date: Mon, Jul 17, 2000 at 21:38:52 (GMT)
From: DP
Email: None
To: Pauline Premie
Subject: HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA
Message:
You are sooooooooooo funny!
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Date: Tues, Jul 18, 2000 at 04:16:11 (GMT)
From: Zelda
Email: None
To: Pauline Premie
Subject: Gosh I dont know Pauline...
Message:
I meam, I realise that I am taking a chance. I should have surrendered enough to be able to look at my chilren through the filter of my love for Him- to keep us from having too much human interaction. Now I am probably sending them a clear signal to give into Maya by becoming an Ex.

But I really really used to think (:0) that eclipsing my perception of their growth during the tender years was GOOD for them. But now I am not so sure and so I have decided to leave his holy feet.

I wonder how it is in the trunk of the car? I envision children sometimes bring you bagels and show you their homework.

Free and frankly
Zelda

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Date: Mon, Jul 17, 2000 at 20:00:14 (GMT)
From: Duped Premie
Email: None
To: Zelda
Subject: Sorry Zelda but I wish to remain duped!
Message:
Yeah,Zelda,you almost convinced me but I'd rather remain duped practicing Knowledge and listening to Maharaji than the alternatives I've seen on this site! Hope you enjoy being 'un' duped as much as you and others here seem to enjoy being 'ex' premies. Jai Satchitand! (How are Dobie Gillis and Maynard G. Krebs doing, by the way?)
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Date: Tues, Jul 18, 2000 at 04:34:53 (GMT)
From: SB
Email: None
To: Duped Premie
Subject: No sense of humor dupie, why?
Message:
Too confronting to look some more? Or you came not to reson but to judge...
Alleluya sister, you have found the lord. Be his servant and kiss his feet all you want. He created a little god in a trone for you, in your head/heart. Enjoy 'his presence'. Is all yours. You are not that ignorant as to judge us for living the cult, right? Because you know something is wrong but you chose denial. You can stand the truth. Is a cult!! maharaji is not special at all. Is all staged, thought each inch. Don't fool yourself!

Free

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Date: Tues, Jul 18, 2000 at 11:08:56 (GMT)
From: Zelda
Email: None
To: Duped
Subject: Dupe! Holy Smoke I didnt mean THAT
Message:
Duped Premie wrote:
Yeah,Zelda,you almost convinced me but I'd rather remain duped practicing Knowledge and listening to Maharaji than the alternatives I've seen on this site!
Hope you enjoy being 'un' duped as much as you and others here seem to enjoy being 'ex' premies. Jai Satchitand! (How are Dobie Gillis and Maynard G. Krebs doing, by the way?)

Dear Duped Premie

To get something straight I must say that I never meant that the choice is/was between being duped into practicing Knowledge OR the stuff on this site.
That would be a very dagerouus conclusion to draw.
This site has the most crazy bag of mixed lollies around, and plenty of them are no good at all.

One thing I keep saying is that being an ex is just that - and it does not imply buying into any ex-like dogma as an option to knowledge. It is a free fall to extract oneself from knowledge- and one is left to find their own feet in their orientation to a higher power or lack of.

The only common thread we have here as far as I am concerned is that Mahaha is selling co-dependance and getting away from him is essential to freedom. That DOES NOT mean that one even needs to ever ever come to his forum to be an ex . It is an independant move and I think it is a healthy process to get away from Miragi
and NOT hang out here until one is secure in their exness.

Dobie and I were together briefly but not he has done broka my heart with whats-her-name and Maynard is around here someplace-he became a Hari Krishna guy.

Zelda

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Date: Tues, Jul 18, 2000 at 16:40:30 (GMT)
From: gerry
Email: None
To: Zelda
Subject: Who's the extremist?
Message:
This site has the most crazy bag of mixed lollies around, and plenty of them are no good at all.

That's quite a statement. The most huh? That presumes you've been to all such forums. Well, maybe you have, but the internet is pretty large place.

So plenty 'of them' are 'no good at all.' Another huge sweeping generalization. But quite ungenerous.

It is an independant (sic) move and I think it is a healthy process to get away from Miragi and NOT hang out here until one is secure in their exness.

Well a whole lot of folks 'hung out here' and BECAME secure in their 'exness.' Who are you to say what's healthy for other people?

BTW, you're really Cynthia, aren't you.

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Date: Thurs, Jul 20, 2000 at 04:16:06 (GMT)
From: Selene
Email: None
To: gerry
Subject: this will go inactive before you answer
Message:
but WHY do you think she is Cynthia? That is interesting.
I am of course interested given that Cynthia took it upon herself to be so very interested in me (YUCK!!!) and Zelda has never bothered me, always been cool.
Curious.
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Date: Tues, Jul 18, 2000 at 20:37:46 (GMT)
From: Zelda
Email: None
To: gerry
Subject: Who's the extremist?
Message:
This is what happens when I post hurriedly.

not cynthia
not other forums
I meat participants here
There is a mixed bag of beliefs in god/not ect ect here- and some are quite offiensive I think.

I will give you the generalizations and
see your ungenerous

What I was trying to say is that it is not necessary or necessarily a good thing to find ounes 'exness' here exclusivly.

some premeis think that to become an ex it is necessary to join the forum - which easily can be interpreted as another group or cult to join..

This is not so and I think it needs to be emphasized.

I realize it must have read negatively to an ex but I didnt mean it like that.
Your not Joey are you?

;)
Z

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Date: Mon, Jul 17, 2000 at 04:22:04 (GMT)
From: G
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: Q and A from Elan Vital FAQ web page
Message:
From the www.elanvital.com FAQ web page:

Does getting Knowledge mean the person has to give up everything else she or he believes in?

No it does not. The only request Maharaji makes is that people do not approach Knowledge as another thing to collect on a ‘spiritual shopping trip’ as it were. Knowledge stands apart from the other things you do in your life and should be approached without preconceptions. He explains:

'To give Knowledge the best chance possible you need to have a clean slate. Just as a gardener will not plant a tree where another tree is growing, you have to clear a space in your life to allow the seed of Knowledge to grow.'


There is some very strange wording here. The question of whether 'the person' has to give up everything else she or he believes in to 'get Knowledge' is posed. That is not the correct question, it should be something more like 'Are there any beliefs that one will be pressured or asked to give up to get Knowledge or that will be attacked in any way after one receives Knowledge?' and 'What beliefs are in conflict with 'Knowledge'?'

Rawat's request 'do not approach Knowledge as another thing to collect on a 'spiritual shopping trip' as it were' means to not 'collect' anything else and, by implication, to get rid of what you've already collected on your - as he disdainfully puts it - 'spiritual shopping trip'. He is saying to stop looking elsewhere for the Truth (or truth if you prefer), don't do any other practices, don't have other beliefs, don't look on your own. What else could this mean? I'm basing what I'm saying on my own past experience.

He says 'Knowledge stands apart'. In other words, if anything conflicts with 'Knowledge', say something like Father's day, forget about it. If he announces a program two days in advance, drop everything and go. If he wants money for something and you need the money for something else, forget about it, that's just 'other things', fork over the dough. In the old days he said something like 'Don't try to fit Knowledge into your life, fit your life into Knowledge', or more to the point 'Dedicate your life to Guru Maharaj Ji'.

If 'Knowledge' should be approached without preconceptions, then what is the aspirant process for? Better to just show people the techniques right away, so they don't have the concepts that are presented in the 'person preparing to recieve Knowledge' process. But of course, those concepts aren't 'concepts' are they? No, to him, only concepts that conflict with 'Knowledge' are 'concepts', concepts like 'you need the Master' are not 'concepts' because they are good concepts.

A 'clean slate', what does that mean? What if your 'slate', i.e. your mind, is not 'clean'? Then wouldn't you have to clean it? Doesn't that involve giving up your 'unclean' beliefs? What is this 'tree' that you have to get rid of? Is there some conflict here? How does one 'clear a space', what does one have to 'clear'?

Come on, Prem, show us your 'clarity', give us some clear answers.

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Date: Mon, Jul 17, 2000 at 12:15:50 (GMT)
From: Hal
Email: None
To: G
Subject: Q and A from Elan Vital FAQ web page
Message:
Hi G,

That was an excellent analysis. Particularly perspicacious I thought was the fourth parigraph in which you spoke of preconceptions. ' Better just to show people the techniques right away, so they don't have the concepts presented in the 'preparing for knowledge phase'. I'd never thought of that. Your proposition is very sensible. Why do they have all that indoctrination if they want people to just have a pure experience of 'IT' inside them????

Thanks G

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Date: Mon, Jul 17, 2000 at 16:32:54 (GMT)
From: Joe
Email: None
To: Hal
Subject: Preconceptions and Concepts...
Message:
Maharaji says that you have to go through the aspirant process to get your questions answered. He implies that it is a process by which people free themselves from 'concepts' and get 'ready' to receive knowledge.

But as G points out, what really happens in the aspirant process is that people learn the essential elements of being in a cult. They learn to suppress or ignore their doubts; they learn to ignore, hide/repress all real questions, and never express them. If you express either doubts or questions you are by definition not 'ready' and you won't get knowledge. Since all the time the premies are saying how incredible it is, one learns to fake it. You would never express a doubt, or even a question, unless it is entirely feigning, like 'how can Maharaji be so loving and beautiful?'

And in the course of that, you have to accept the new concepts of the cult. 1) Peace and happiness are within you; 2)Maharaji is an essential part of the experience; 3)You can't doubt or analyze knowledge, or Maharaji; 4)You have to be grateful to Maharaji or you don't get what he supposedly offers; 5)There is a part of you, your mind, that is basically evil, and constantly distracts you from the wonderful experience.

Note, however, that nowhere in the process is it explained who set up such a stupid system, whereby you get peace, but are, at the same time, constantly deprived of it. It also is never explained why a chubby, obscenely wealthy, Indian guy is the source of your happiness.

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Date: Mon, Jul 17, 2000 at 09:35:11 (GMT)
From: Anon
Email: None
To: G
Subject: Q and A from Elan Vital FAQ web page
Message:
G wrote: 'Come on, Prem, show us your 'clarity', give us some clear answers.'

Your last sentence prompted me to consider why it would indeed improve the credibility of Elan Vital's FAQ's section on their site if Maharaji wrote the answers and explanantions himself , rather than members of the Elan Vital organisation.

Since the whole thing hinges on Maharaji's advice as a teacher it would surely be best that Elan Vital should serve to present HIS answers to peoples questions and not some 'organisations' idea of how they want to present him.

We were often told that this thing was between 'us' and 'him' and no intermediary was required. Maharaji stressed that this was the ideal. Whatsmore he has many times bemoaned the fact that followers interpretations of what he said has misrepresented him over the years. How does one know that Elan Vitals PR work is not further misrepresentation??

Why cannot he take the simple and obvious step of writing his own answers? Are we to believe that he is too busy?
How much do Elan Vitals carefully worded answers reflect Maharaji's personal feelings about these issues?

Despite the fact that many premies feel that Maharaji owes no explanations to anyone, would it not be somewhat appropriate..even 'healing' if Maharaji responded in person to those people who clearly do feel that they would benefit from some sort of personal explanations from him?

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Date: Mon, Jul 17, 2000 at 16:09:23 (GMT)
From: Joe
Email: None
To: Anon
Subject: Oh, Come On Anon
Message:
As for whether Maharaji is answering those questions, do you think for one second that Maharaji didn't approve those FAQs and 'answers' on the Elan Vital website? Do you think there is any way they would have been put up there without his knowledge and approval? You know as well as I that the Maharaji cult doesn't operate that way. Not a leaf moves, you know.

The facade that those answers are coming from Elan Vital without Maharaji's involvement is as falacious as the assertion that Elan Vital is a completely separate organization from Maharaji and that is operates independently and Maharaji isn't involved in the decision-making process.

For example, do you really think Elan Vital set up those recent 'events' in Boston, Alexandria and the rest and then just 'invited' Maharaji to speak there like Elan Vital claims? Of course not. Maharaji is running that organization. The supposed separation is for tax appearances, and to give Maharaji 'plausable deniability' when things go wrong.

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Date: Mon, Jul 17, 2000 at 19:52:23 (GMT)
From: Anon
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: Oh, Come On Anon
Message:
OK, so even if Maharaji approved the FAQs and 'answers' on the Elan Vital website, that is NOT the same as writing them himself is it? I accept that he may have approved them, but I also think there is a chance that he didn't actually. I doubt if he has the time or inclination to vet everything they do. I imagine he invests some trust that they are doing what he wants and let's them get on with it to a certain extent. Maybe not- how should I know. Maybe I am way out of touch. Maharaji may have discussed the general way he wants those questions answered but they are not his words.

My point really is that it would be better if Maharaji answered those questions in his own words. I for one would like to hear his answers off the cuff or even lengthily considered. I find the Elan Vital answers very predictable in tone and would much rather hear directly from yer man himself.

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Date: Mon, Jul 17, 2000 at 21:22:32 (GMT)
From: Joe
Email: None
To: Anon
Subject: Oh, Come On Anon
Message:
I can't imagine that some sort of 'public' explanation of Maharaji's actions by Elan Vital, no matter how lame, wouldn't be seen and approved by Maharaji. They wouldn't dare just put out those FAQs without his approval, for mortal fear that he would be pissed about it.

But I agree that there is a double-edged sword in acting like those answers aren't from Maharaji. On the one hand, it makes it appear that Maharaji can't speak for himself. On the other hand, it does provide a layer of deniability. Maharaji can always claim that EV did those FAQs without his knowledge, in case, for example, a reporter were to ask a pointed question about the inconsistencies in the answers from Maharaji's printed speeches from the past -- for example, his claiming to be god in those speeches, when EV catagorically denies he ever did.

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Date: Mon, Jul 17, 2000 at 18:37:42 (GMT)
From: jondon
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: Oh, Come On Anon
Message:
Joe, I thought that was a given, that M and EV and K are the holy trinity; one and the same.
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Date: Tues, Jul 18, 2000 at 00:54:54 (GMT)
From: Salam
Email: None
To: jondon
Subject: Oh, Come On Anon
Message:
I agree with Joe, EV is a puppet in gm hands, if he says jump they jump. I do not think that it will make any difference if gm answers the questions, for that I do not think he will ever answer any question. He is too far gone to give up what he has, especially his fortune. Personally I think I will be old and gray waiting for him to answer, he basically do not know what being accountable is, it is not in his dictionary, he is either too dump to know it, or he belives that him being a perfect master, he can do as he pleases, except this is not holding anymore. He defenetly knows what is happening out there, he is trying to distance himself from it but he is doing a very bad job of it. Look at EV correspondances and you can see how paranoid they are. His satallite transsmission and his retreats and withdrawel from an personal activites and public appearences is a indication that he feels the pinch. He is like a dog chasing his tail, trapped, living in a dream that is turning into a nightmare.

But hey, If he writes to me I will tell you.

Salam

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Date: Sun, Jul 16, 2000 at 21:10:13 (GMT)
From: jewels
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: any other related sites/chats/forums?
Message:
i'm new here ...so, are there other places to go and romp...
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Date: Mon, Jul 17, 2000 at 05:22:44 (GMT)
From: SB
Email: None
To: jewels
Subject: romp your brains maybe get some answers
Message:
Maybe 'THAT' would be a good 'site' to go to and do some romping; share with us the results if it ever happens.
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Date: Mon, Jul 17, 2000 at 03:28:32 (GMT)
From: Selene
Email: None
To: jewels
Subject: what you are searching for
Message:
is within you
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Date: Mon, Jul 17, 2000 at 11:59:00 (GMT)
From: Hal
Email: None
To: Selene
Subject: Selene you're a gem ! nt
Message:
dsf
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Date: Mon, Jul 17, 2000 at 03:36:43 (GMT)
From: Salam
Email: None
To: Selene
Subject: spot on.
Message:
nt
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Date: Mon, Jul 17, 2000 at 07:23:57 (GMT)
From: Oliver
Email: None
To: From Oliver to Selene
Subject: I laughed, and I laughed, and I laughed. (nt)
Message:
nt
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Date: Tues, Jul 18, 2000 at 02:04:02 (GMT)
From: Like a Dummy
Email: None
To: Oliver
Subject: I laughed, and I laughed, and I laughed. (nt)
Message:
LOL
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