Joe -:- An Observation of Revisionism -:- Wed, Jul 19, 2000 at 23:39:42 (GMT)

__ Susan -:- well said, and how I feel too thanks. (nt) -:- Thurs, Jul 20, 2000 at 00:46:31 (GMT)

__ Shroomananda -:- Yeah, Maharaji MADE you give him -:- Wed, Jul 19, 2000 at 23:50:08 (GMT)

__ __ SB -:- Yes, little by little, soft, nice... -:- Thurs, Jul 20, 2000 at 04:26:07 (GMT)

__ __ Joe -:- Listen, Idiot.... -:- Wed, Jul 19, 2000 at 23:58:58 (GMT)

__ __ __ Shroomananda -:- Listen, Idiot.... -:- Thurs, Jul 20, 2000 at 00:25:09 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ VP -:- Listen, Idiot.... -:- Thurs, Jul 20, 2000 at 03:05:08 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ Shroomananda -:- He gave it pretty freely at first and look -:- Thurs, Jul 20, 2000 at 03:10:53 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ Lotus eater -:- He's more careful now, and they are leaving -:- Thurs, Jul 20, 2000 at 22:17:08 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ VP -:- He gave it pretty freely at first and look -:- Thurs, Jul 20, 2000 at 03:26:20 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ SB -:- LOL (nt) -:- Thurs, Jul 20, 2000 at 04:41:59 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ P-man -:- maharaji is a fraud -:- Thurs, Jul 20, 2000 at 00:56:33 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ Shroomananda -:- One man's snake oil is another man's nectar! nt -:- Thurs, Jul 20, 2000 at 01:02:06 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ Jim -:- Yes, of course you're a revisionist -:- Thurs, Jul 20, 2000 at 00:32:38 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ Shroomananda -:- Incidentally, Jim, he said that in India 2 1/2 -:- Thurs, Jul 20, 2000 at 01:00:08 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ Jim -:- So? -:- Thurs, Jul 20, 2000 at 01:04:38 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Shroomananda -:- Your whole point seems to be that he lied so -:- Thurs, Jul 20, 2000 at 01:47:29 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ SB -:- Surrender to maharaji, not GOD... -:- Thurs, Jul 20, 2000 at 04:48:27 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ VP -:- Shroo, it made sense because of our religion -:- Thurs, Jul 20, 2000 at 03:16:03 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Jim -:- No, no, no! My 'whole point' is that you -:- Thurs, Jul 20, 2000 at 02:45:25 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Shroomananda -:- This is way beyond my ability to respond. I think -:- Thurs, Jul 20, 2000 at 02:52:39 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ P-man -:- amazing -:- Thurs, Jul 20, 2000 at 04:53:48 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Jim -:- Maybe you're forgetting something basic, Shroom -:- Thurs, Jul 20, 2000 at 03:43:14 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Shroomananda -:- P.S. -:- Thurs, Jul 20, 2000 at 04:16:12 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Jim -:- You completely missed my point -:- Thurs, Jul 20, 2000 at 16:19:32 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Shroomananda -:- You know -:- Thurs, Jul 20, 2000 at 04:07:17 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Jim -:- Wrong 'Lord of the Universe', Shroom -:- Thurs, Jul 20, 2000 at 16:24:44 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Susan -:- However, if Maharaji said or did something that I -:- Thurs, Jul 20, 2000 at 04:15:39 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ sb -:- Like protecting criminals? -:- Thurs, Jul 20, 2000 at 05:26:50 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Shroomananda -:- Well, I guess if the Knowledge didn't work or he -:- Thurs, Jul 20, 2000 at 04:32:06 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Jim -:- What about this, Shroom? -:- Thurs, Jul 20, 2000 at 15:52:58 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ VP -:- What about this, Shroom? -:- Thurs, Jul 20, 2000 at 17:37:54 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Susan -:- hmm... -:- Thurs, Jul 20, 2000 at 14:02:40 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ Shroomananda -:- Oh, I'm dealing with it. I'm shouting it in the -:- Thurs, Jul 20, 2000 at 00:50:46 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ Jerry -:- Now, now, Shroo -:- Thurs, Jul 20, 2000 at 01:24:22 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Shroomananda -:- You're right Jerry. And now I've pissed -:- Thurs, Jul 20, 2000 at 01:55:40 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ P-man -:- Maharaji's empty 'Knowledge' -:- Thurs, Jul 20, 2000 at 01:05:54 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ Jim -:- No, Shroom, that's NOT 'dealing with it' -:- Thurs, Jul 20, 2000 at 01:01:20 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Salam -:- Jim, if you notice, premies can not tolerate -:- Thurs, Jul 20, 2000 at 01:57:15 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ Susan -:- well said Jim! (nt) -:- Thurs, Jul 20, 2000 at 00:48:19 (GMT)

VP -:- But were/are you happy? -:- Wed, Jul 19, 2000 at 23:30:50 (GMT)

__ hamzen -:- But were/are you happy? -:- Fri, Jul 21, 2000 at 01:31:53 (GMT)

__ __ gerry -:- Absolutely one of the ***BEST*** ham, and -:- Fri, Jul 21, 2000 at 17:20:09 (GMT)

__ __ __ ham -:- Will do (and thanx) (nt) -:- Fri, Jul 21, 2000 at 20:20:03 (GMT)

__ __ Katie -:- the shadow side -:- Fri, Jul 21, 2000 at 17:05:30 (GMT)

__ __ __ ham -:- the shadow side -:- Fri, Jul 21, 2000 at 21:45:19 (GMT)

__ __ Halzen -:- Great post ham nt -:- Fri, Jul 21, 2000 at 10:04:32 (GMT)

__ __ __ ham -:- Poor ole Nuno! -:- Fri, Jul 21, 2000 at 22:01:16 (GMT)

__ Hal -:- But were/are you happy? -:- Thurs, Jul 20, 2000 at 22:10:34 (GMT)

__ Joe -:- But were/are you happy? -:- Thurs, Jul 20, 2000 at 05:09:00 (GMT)

__ Susan -:- But were/are you happy? -:- Thurs, Jul 20, 2000 at 01:05:23 (GMT)

__ __ VP -:- But were/are you happy? -:- Thurs, Jul 20, 2000 at 02:45:59 (GMT)

__ Beverley Eyre -:- But were/are you happy? -:- Thurs, Jul 20, 2000 at 00:48:43 (GMT)

__ __ VP -:- But were/are you happy? -:- Thurs, Jul 20, 2000 at 02:34:27 (GMT)

__ __ __ Joe -:- Another Premie Suicide -:- Thurs, Jul 20, 2000 at 16:27:30 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ Way -:- Wow, and yet another -:- Thurs, Jul 20, 2000 at 16:45:50 (GMT)

__ __ An Observer -:- Another premie death -:- Thurs, Jul 20, 2000 at 01:16:53 (GMT)

__ __ __ cq -:- I remember Dougie -:- Thurs, Jul 20, 2000 at 17:15:55 (GMT)

__ __ __ Voyeur -:- Another premie death -:- Thurs, Jul 20, 2000 at 14:44:02 (GMT)

__ Good Question -:- This is how I felt -:- Thurs, Jul 20, 2000 at 00:43:09 (GMT)

__ __ Way -:- happy? -:- Thurs, Jul 20, 2000 at 15:02:31 (GMT)

__ __ __ Good Question -:- happy? -:- Fri, Jul 21, 2000 at 16:01:49 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ Way -:- To Good Question -:- Fri, Jul 21, 2000 at 16:13:45 (GMT)

Pauline Premie -:- More Proof that Maharaji is Consistent -:- Wed, Jul 19, 2000 at 22:44:56 (GMT)

__ la-ex -:- More Proof that Maharaji is Consistent -:- Thurs, Jul 20, 2000 at 02:30:42 (GMT)

__ Good Question -:- Seeing as you haven't been kicked off yet -:- Thurs, Jul 20, 2000 at 00:55:41 (GMT)

__ __ Jethro -:- charanand quotes -:- Thurs, Jul 20, 2000 at 10:28:59 (GMT)

__ __ __ Susan -:- cold tears of real devotion -:- Thurs, Jul 20, 2000 at 14:07:13 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ Lotus Eater -:- cold tears of real devotion -:- Thurs, Jul 20, 2000 at 22:02:04 (GMT)

__ __ Pauline Premie -:- No Journey From ME... -:- Thurs, Jul 20, 2000 at 04:36:17 (GMT)

__ __ __ Zelda -:- Pauline uyou are wrong there... -:- Thurs, Jul 20, 2000 at 18:39:42 (GMT)

__ Jim -:- ***Holy cow! JM, please note*** -:- Thurs, Jul 20, 2000 at 00:25:50 (GMT)

__ __ Jean-Michel -:- Hey Jim and EV forum monitors !!! -:- Thurs, Jul 20, 2000 at 17:27:26 (GMT)

__ __ Donny Devotee -:- ***Holy cow! JM, please note*** -:- Thurs, Jul 20, 2000 at 01:38:39 (GMT)

__ __ Susan -:- I agree!!!!!!!!! -:- Thurs, Jul 20, 2000 at 01:12:55 (GMT)

__ Donny Devotee -:- More Proof that Maharaji is Consistent -:- Wed, Jul 19, 2000 at 23:21:05 (GMT)

__ VP -:- Pauline, you are priceless-nt :) -:- Wed, Jul 19, 2000 at 23:04:06 (GMT)

Jerry -:- The wisdom of the Shroo -:- Wed, Jul 19, 2000 at 18:01:24 (GMT)

__ Shroomananda -:- Reply to Jerry -:- Wed, Jul 19, 2000 at 23:28:19 (GMT)

__ __ Jerry -:- Reply to Jerry -:- Thurs, Jul 20, 2000 at 00:10:51 (GMT)

__ __ __ Shroomananda -:- You can't please everybody, Jerry. -:- Thurs, Jul 20, 2000 at 00:46:52 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ JohnT -:- ... you please nobody but yourself, Shroo. -:- Thurs, Jul 20, 2000 at 13:11:22 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ Hal -:- JohnT that was so harsh to Shrew ! -:- Thurs, Jul 20, 2000 at 22:20:54 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ Jerry -:- I'm not buying it, Shroo -:- Thurs, Jul 20, 2000 at 01:12:21 (GMT)

__ Pauline Premie -:- Certainly Not -:- Wed, Jul 19, 2000 at 22:58:36 (GMT)

Way -:- Copy of 'Who is Guru Maharaj Ji?' needed -:- Wed, Jul 19, 2000 at 15:08:30 (GMT)

__ la-ex -:- while we're talking books,ever see this one? -:- Thurs, Jul 20, 2000 at 03:23:27 (GMT)

__ __ Monmot -:- 'The Guru'--Written by Bob Larson nt -:- Thurs, Jul 20, 2000 at 05:46:00 (GMT)

__ __ __ la-ex -:- 'The Guru'--Written by Bob Larson nt -:- Thurs, Jul 20, 2000 at 19:56:25 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ Monmot -:- Try.... -:- Fri, Jul 21, 2000 at 01:22:58 (GMT)

__ Jean-Michel -:- Help to scan and process WIGM. Service anybody? -:- Wed, Jul 19, 2000 at 16:33:20 (GMT)

__ __ Salam -:- I might be able to do it. First need to know what -:- Thurs, Jul 20, 2000 at 01:06:21 (GMT)

__ __ Oliver -:- Help to scan and process WIGM. Service anybody? -:- Thurs, Jul 20, 2000 at 00:39:00 (GMT)

__ __ __ Selene -:- how many pages Oliver? email me -:- Thurs, Jul 20, 2000 at 03:50:28 (GMT)

__ Salam -:- They were being auctioned at ebay few days ago -:- Wed, Jul 19, 2000 at 15:39:57 (GMT)

__ __ Joe -:- I Bought It...... -:- Wed, Jul 19, 2000 at 17:34:39 (GMT)

__ __ Way -:- Thanks, Salam, (nt) -:- Wed, Jul 19, 2000 at 15:56:17 (GMT)

__ __ __ Joe -:- Thanks, Salam, (nt) -:- Wed, Jul 19, 2000 at 17:48:33 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ Monmot -:- Other Used Book Sites -:- Thurs, Jul 20, 2000 at 01:00:45 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ jondon -:- Monmot thanks..... -:- Thurs, Jul 20, 2000 at 21:02:42 (GMT)

Jim -:- Glasnost in EV (Soon Perestroika?) -:- Wed, Jul 19, 2000 at 14:25:38 (GMT)

__ Jerry -:- Crap propaganda -:- Wed, Jul 19, 2000 at 15:07:43 (GMT)

FA: URGENT!! -:- Premie ZEN posted a nude picture -:- Wed, Jul 19, 2000 at 06:46:59 (GMT)

__ Zen -:- More lies Sb? -:- Wed, Jul 19, 2000 at 10:36:29 (GMT)

__ __ SB -:- FA, please read this post!! -:- Wed, Jul 19, 2000 at 13:48:55 (GMT)

__ __ __ Forum Admin -:- He's gone. (nt) -:- Wed, Jul 19, 2000 at 16:00:58 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ No he isn't!! -:- Attention FA: He's gone. NO -:- Fri, Jul 21, 2000 at 07:37:06 (GMT)

__ __ SB -:- Can you explained what happened? -:- Wed, Jul 19, 2000 at 13:33:48 (GMT)

__ SB -:- More clear -:- Wed, Jul 19, 2000 at 06:48:47 (GMT)

__ __ Jim -:- What's the name of the post or thread? (nt) -:- Wed, Jul 19, 2000 at 13:51:23 (GMT)

__ __ __ SB -:- Zen: The Knowledge Session in Spanish. -:- Wed, Jul 19, 2000 at 14:17:18 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ G -:- Results of AltaVista search on 'zensolo' -:- Wed, Jul 19, 2000 at 17:31:55 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ G -:- more on 'zensolo' -:- Thurs, Jul 20, 2000 at 03:23:19 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ SB -:- Clear...Thanks lots G -:- Thurs, Jul 20, 2000 at 13:02:25 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ G -:- It deserves attention. -:- Fri, Jul 21, 2000 at 03:44:54 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ Salam -:- SB, someone is using my name in the Spanish -:- Wed, Jul 19, 2000 at 14:59:34 (GMT)

__ __ __ Felix the ... -:- What's the name of the post or thread? (nt) -:- Wed, Jul 19, 2000 at 14:10:38 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ SB -:- I don't look, I am!! You? ASS ZEN -:- Fri, Jul 21, 2000 at 06:57:41 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ SB -:- FA: Read this post: Felix is Zen!! -:- Fri, Jul 21, 2000 at 06:54:57 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ Felix the ... -:- FA: Read this post: Felix is Zen!! -:- Fri, Jul 21, 2000 at 16:06:25 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ SB -:- FA: Read this post: MORE PROOF! Felix is Zen!! -:- Sat, Jul 22, 2000 at 02:30:09 (GMT)

Know It All -:- Shroomananda -:- Wed, Jul 19, 2000 at 05:48:39 (GMT)

__ Shroomananda -:- OK, Know It All, I'm going to bed. But I'll check -:- Wed, Jul 19, 2000 at 06:02:05 (GMT)

__ __ Selene -:- stupid cop out go 'drag your blanket blindly' -:- Wed, Jul 19, 2000 at 06:05:37 (GMT)

__ __ __ Shroomananda -:- stupid cop out go 'drag your blanket blindly' -:- Wed, Jul 19, 2000 at 23:44:03 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ Selene -:- that is one thing you will never know shroom -:- Thurs, Jul 20, 2000 at 03:28:46 (GMT)

__ Selene -:- like Ms ADAT said.... -:- Wed, Jul 19, 2000 at 05:58:29 (GMT)

Jim -:- Get with the program, dude -:- Wed, Jul 19, 2000 at 05:04:38 (GMT)

__ Salam -:- Get with the program, dude -:- Wed, Jul 19, 2000 at 05:29:46 (GMT)

Jim -:- *Mega-question* for Shroomananda -:- Wed, Jul 19, 2000 at 04:43:05 (GMT)

__ Salam -:- Shroomanad is either a total idiot, or is afraid -:- Wed, Jul 19, 2000 at 05:05:56 (GMT)

__ __ SB -:- What is abmit? Thanks. (nt) -:- Wed, Jul 19, 2000 at 05:45:40 (GMT)

__ __ Shroomananda -:- Salam is not an idiot, is he? Just asking. NT -:- Wed, Jul 19, 2000 at 05:11:40 (GMT)

__ __ __ SB -:- He is fine, you are, aren't you? NT -:- Wed, Jul 19, 2000 at 05:46:40 (GMT)

__ __ __ Ms. ADAT -:- I am always interested when two people show up -:- Wed, Jul 19, 2000 at 05:38:02 (GMT)

__ __ __ Salam -:- You must be brain dead -:- Wed, Jul 19, 2000 at 05:37:01 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ SB -:- Save your energy: He's far Gone. -:- Wed, Jul 19, 2000 at 05:52:09 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ Shroomananda -:- Trying to explain something to someone by first -:- Wed, Jul 19, 2000 at 05:40:28 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ Salam -:- I f you notice the statment above -:- Wed, Jul 19, 2000 at 06:36:11 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ SB -:- SISSY!! = EXTRA POOR EXCUSE!! -:- Wed, Jul 19, 2000 at 05:55:11 (GMT)

__ Shroomananda -:- Head on, Jim! But keep in mind that my only -:- Wed, Jul 19, 2000 at 05:01:53 (GMT)

__ __ Hal -:- We're not all bitter here Shroo -:- Wed, Jul 19, 2000 at 14:39:06 (GMT)

__ __ A.P. -:- The Knowledge -:- Wed, Jul 19, 2000 at 12:45:22 (GMT)

__ __ SBlunt -:- I tell you why now you ask those questions -:- Wed, Jul 19, 2000 at 06:14:02 (GMT)

__ __ Jim -:- Okay, let's pursue this -:- Wed, Jul 19, 2000 at 05:37:21 (GMT)

__ __ __ Shroomananda -:- Whoa, Nellie! What does that have to do with -:- Wed, Jul 19, 2000 at 05:54:29 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ VP -:- But it doesn't really work that way, does it? -:- Thurs, Jul 20, 2000 at 03:52:18 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ Jim -:- Like watching the wicked witch of the east melt -:- Wed, Jul 19, 2000 at 13:31:25 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ Jim -:- BTW, I'd kick you off the page at this point -:- Wed, Jul 19, 2000 at 13:59:22 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ P-man -:- BTW, I'd kick you off the page at this point -:- Wed, Jul 19, 2000 at 15:21:28 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ JtF -:- Take the poison then decide if it's good?(NT) -:- Wed, Jul 19, 2000 at 10:45:46 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ Wise one -:- BUT Knowledge IS NOT GOD -:- Wed, Jul 19, 2000 at 06:23:09 (GMT)

Shintaro -:- No way Jose -:- Wed, Jul 19, 2000 at 02:20:04 (GMT)

Date: Wed, Jul 19, 2000 at 23:39:42 (GMT) From: Joe Email: None To: Everyone Subject: An Observation of Revisionism Message:

Jim posted something from Michael Bordon on ELK that really is bullshit, but I think it's consistent with other bullshit I've seen from premies trying desperately to obscure Maharaji's past when he encouraged his followers to worship him as a God and to devote their lives to him. There is a definite formula/pattern here that is mildly amusing, but at the same time infuriating. Glen Whittaker in his 'history', and Elan Vital in its 'biography' section, and other sections on the Elan Vital FAQs say something like this: First there is long, nostalgic history of Maharaji as a young kid in India, and then a tortiously long section on Maharaji's arrival in the West, in both England and America, with lots of discussions of how tight money was, how Maharaji stayed in rented flats, etc., etc. In Glen Whittaker's revisionist drivel, this goes on for multiple paragraphs. But then, suddenly, after long explanations, these 'histories' skip about 10 years of the 'history' that is inconvenient for the current Elan Vital party line. The 10-year period is summarized in a couple of sentences about the founding of DLM and the briefest of sentences about how there were a lot of Hindu traditions that went on for awhile. Period. End of discussion. Maharaji then changed everything and they start talking about Elan Vital and Maharaji today. The entire 1974-1983 period is just skipped like it never happened. Whittaker explains it away in one brief paragraph, covering about 10 years, as a period when Maharaji spent time enjoying being with his followers and that a 'historian' would describe the period as one of re-evaluation. No mention is made of Maharaji's repeated demands for total devotion and surrender from his followers, no mention of how often he had people line up to kiss his feet, no mention of the thousands of premies who uprooted their lives to give him planes, residences and all the rest during that time. And certainly no mention of him wearing crowns, what the words to ARTI are, or anything like that. The period, during which many of us wasted years of our lives is just skipped. This is a pattern. But I have to say it is pissing me off big time. It is making me really angry because for me, it's real personal. I feel that period of my life was nearly a total waste because I believed in Maharaji and what he was asking me to do -- to dedicate/devote my entire life to him. I literally tried to do that. I profoundly resent that there are premies, especially premies who I knew personally back then, who are writing crap like this literally pissing on the personal experiences of many of their former colleagues and friends. That's bad enough, but that Maharaji is involved in such cover-up, lies, and disrespect for his devotees is beyond reprehensible.

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Date: Thurs, Jul 20, 2000 at 00:46:31 (GMT) From: Susan Email: None To: Joe Subject: well said, and how I feel too thanks. (nt) Message:

nt

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Date: Wed, Jul 19, 2000 at 23:50:08 (GMT) From: Shroomananda Email: None To: Joe Subject: Yeah, Maharaji MADE you give him Message:

planes. He MADE you surrender to him. He MADE you give him residences. He MADE you uproot your life. He MADE you waste years of your life. GROW UP!!! Accept some of the responsibility for the decisions you made, for Christ's sake! Gripe, gripe, gripe, gripe. Ad nauseum!

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Date: Thurs, Jul 20, 2000 at 04:26:07 (GMT) From: SB Email: None To: Shroomananda Subject: Yes, little by little, soft, nice... Message:

sometimes not nice, lying. And you know it!!

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Date: Wed, Jul 19, 2000 at 23:58:58 (GMT) From: Joe Email: None To: Shroomananda Subject: Listen, Idiot.... Message:

I never said anyone made me do anything. Where did you get the stupid idea that I ever said that? My point is there is currently a lot of revisionism and lying going on in the Maharaji-cult world. Care to address that, or would you rather rant?

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Date: Thurs, Jul 20, 2000 at 00:25:09 (GMT) From: Shroomananda Email: None To: Joe Subject: Listen, Idiot.... Message:

Fair enough. An eight year old kid is asked to bring Knowledge to the world by his father/Master which he personally starts doing when he is 13. He builds a large following in the west, many of whom believe he is an incarnation of God and who he does not discourage from that belief. After building that mainstream as a foundation of his later work, he dismantles all of the concepts in order to offer his Knowledge to the mainstream of people who may be put off from receiving his free gift simply because of the hindu/spiritual/religious concepts in which it is presented. He realizes that many will benefit from his Knowledge but many will not aspire for it couched in those terms in which it was initially presented. This pisses off some of those who received it during its initial phase to the point where they start their own website and call themselves 'ex' premies. Do you think I'm a revisionist too?

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Date: Thurs, Jul 20, 2000 at 03:05:08 (GMT) From: VP Email: None To: Shroomananda Subject: Listen, Idiot.... Message:

If Maharaji really wanted to give Knowledge freely to the Mainstream, and to great numbers of people, he would go about it completely differently. The aspirant process is shrouded in secrecy. This is not the way you give something you want 'many' to receive.

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Date: Thurs, Jul 20, 2000 at 03:10:53 (GMT) From: Shroomananda Email: None To: VP Subject: He gave it pretty freely at first and look Message:

how many people fell out or became 'ex' premies. He probably just wants to make sure that he gives it to people who are really going to appreciate it. That's why he's being more careful now. And I think that's a correct approach after some of the caustic comments from some of those I've seen here. Just my opinion, though. You're entitled to yours.

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Date: Thurs, Jul 20, 2000 at 22:17:08 (GMT) From: Lotus eater Email: None To: Shroomananda Subject: He's more careful now, and they are leaving Message:

even faster! Come on, you must have noticed the high attrition rate in 'new premies' hahahahahaha

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Date: Thurs, Jul 20, 2000 at 03:26:20 (GMT) From: VP Email: None To: Shroomananda Subject: He gave it pretty freely at first and look Message:

That's fine, Shroomanada, but which is it? Is he giving something freely, an experience for all humans,(as I've heard him say, many times--that this is inside everyone and everyone is entitled to know God) or is he being careful, picky even, about who recieves the 'gift'? If the latter is the case, then he doesn't really believe that all people are entitled to have knowledge. He doesn't want to give the gift of peace to the whole world. If the former is the case, then he is handling this whole thing wrong.

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Date: Thurs, Jul 20, 2000 at 04:41:59 (GMT) From: SB Email: None To: VP Subject: LOL (nt) Message:

nt

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Date: Thurs, Jul 20, 2000 at 00:56:33 (GMT) From: P-man Email: None To: Shroomananda Subject: maharaji is a fraud Message:

Maharaji is a fat greasy piece of shit. He isn't any God and he doesn't have any 'Knowledge'. He lies and steals from innocent people. First he's God, then he's not God, then he's God pretending he's not God... which is it? Now you see it, now you don't. Try his 'Knowledge'. Not working? Your fault. You can walk away any time. Oh... did he mention it'll be like two tons of rotting vegetables on your doorstep. Funny, my doorstep smells fine. Look, Shroomananda, you miserable stupid moron, this Guru plays the oldest con-game in the book; selling snake oil that does nothing and getting people to fork over their bucks.

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Date: Thurs, Jul 20, 2000 at 01:02:06 (GMT) From: Shroomananda Email: None To: P-man Subject: One man's snake oil is another man's nectar! nt Message:

nt

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Date: Thurs, Jul 20, 2000 at 00:32:38 (GMT) From: Jim Email: None To: Shroomananda Subject: Yes, of course you're a revisionist Message:

He builds a large following in the west, many of whom believe he is an incarnation of God and who he does not discourage from that belief. (my emphasis) He did a lot more than 'not discourage' that belief, didn't he? Here it is: Who is Guru? The highest manifestation of God is Guru. So when Guru is here, God is here, to whom will you give your devotion? Guru Maharaj Ji knows all. Guru Maharaji is Brahma (creator). Guru Maharaji is Vishnu (Operator). Guru Maharjai is Shiva (Destroyer of illusion and ego). And above all, Guru Mahraji is the Supremest Lord in person before us. I have come so powerful. I have come for the world. Whenever the great come,the worldly oppose them. Again I have come and you are not listening. Every ear should hear that the saviour of humanity has come. There should be no chance for anyone to say that they haven't heard of Guru Maharaj Ji. Those who have come to me are already saved. Now its your duty to save others. Shout it on the streets. Why be shy? When human beings forget the religion of humanity, the Supreme Lord incarnates. He takes a body and comes on this earth ...... When human beings forget this one way, then our Lord, who is the Lord of the whole universe, comes in human body to give us practical Knowlege, ....But, most ironically, we don't appreciate the Lord when He comes in His human body on this earth. Similarly, a Satguru, a Perfect Master, a Supreme Lord who is existing in the present time, can give you the practical Knowledge of the real thing... So God Himself comes to give practical Knowledge of His divinity, of His inner self, which is self-effulgent light, eternal light, all-pervading light. And the Supreme Master, the Satguru, gives practical Knowledge of that light, irrespective of caste, creed, color, religion or sex, to those human individuals who bow before him with reverence, with love and with faith. Deal with it.

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Date: Thurs, Jul 20, 2000 at 01:00:08 (GMT) From: Shroomananda Email: None To: Jim Subject: Incidentally, Jim, he said that in India 2 1/2 Message:

years BEFORE he even came to the west. So you never personally heard him say that to you. You simply read it later, translated from the original Hindi.

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Date: Thurs, Jul 20, 2000 at 01:04:38 (GMT) From: Jim Email: None To: Shroomananda Subject: So? Message:

What's your point? That he didn't say it? By the way, are you in the discussion or not? Pot shots or honest dialogue? Which is it?

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Date: Thurs, Jul 20, 2000 at 01:47:29 (GMT) From: Shroomananda Email: None To: Jim Subject: Your whole point seems to be that he lied so Message:

could you respond to the reply I gave to Jerry, if you really want an honest discussion: When you were aspiring, did you ever hear him imply or say that he was God or Lord? If so, that didn't stop you from receiving Knowledge, did it? Even though your mind told you he couldn't be God. After all, God is infinite, all-powerful, etc. and it was clear that Maharaji's body was finite and he wasn't all-powerful, etc. He couldn't be God, could he? Yet a lot of premies, instructors, etc. were saying he was an incarnation of God or Lord of the Universe. When I was investigating, I read all the old satsangs I could find and there were some that quoted Maharaji as saying 'I'm not God. My Knowledge is God' or 'I'm just a humble servant of God.' Other quotes said, 'A rose does not call itself a rose' or 'Owner of the car' or 'Guru Maharaj Ji is all-powerful...' or some other statement implying that he was God. So, like most of the 'ex' premies on this site, I was faced with a dilemma. Here was a man claiming to be God and also claiming he wasn't. One or the other of the statements had to be not true according to logic and reason. But since the Knowledge was free, I decided to receive it and the experience it provided me was all I needed to know. Even now if someone were to ask me whether he's an incarnation or not, I wouldn't be able to tell him one way or the other. He showed me how to access the life force within me. Period. When I was an aspirant, I'd listen to satsang and that night when I was going to sleep, I'd ask God to reveal himself to me. I'd come to the conclusion after reading many scriptures that God was light, and that light was within me. But never once before Knowledge did I see light within me. This morning, when I practiced, I did. That ineffable light was dancing within me. That's my proof. And, of course, the peaceful feeling it provides me. I don't always perceive light or experience peace when I practice, but thanks to Knowledge, I know it's there. And I thank Maharaji with all my heart for providing me with the tools to experience it on occasion. By the way, Christ said 'I and my Father are one' implying that he was God. Then someone addressed him as Father and he said not to call him that, that he was a servant of God and that there was just one Father and he was in heaven. So Christ called himself God and then also said he wasn't God. Interesting, isn't it? Was he a liar, too? It didn't stop John or Peter or the rest of his devotees from listening to him or receiving the kingdom of God within, did it? That's about all the 'wisdom' I can muster at this time. How about you? Enjoy. So Jim, what about you. You were a premie in the early days, weren't you? So you read quotes from Maharaji claiming he was God as well as quotes from him when he said he wasn't God. So wasn't he a liar then too? So why did you receive Knowledge back then? If he was God, he was a liar. And if he wasn't God he was a liar. Either way, he was a liar. Right? So lying didn't bother you enough not to receive knowledge or 'waste' years of your life following a liar. Why does it bother you so much now?

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Date: Thurs, Jul 20, 2000 at 04:48:27 (GMT) From: SB Email: None To: Shroomananda Subject: Surrender to maharaji, not GOD... Message:

That was it. Surrender to Guru Maharaji, The Superior Power in Person, Arti, remember? Remember Arti? What's wrong with that? maharaji is a god, if you have to surrender to him...

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Date: Thurs, Jul 20, 2000 at 03:16:03 (GMT) From: VP Email: None To: Shroomananda Subject: Shroo, it made sense because of our religion Message:

When you were aspiring, did you ever hear him imply or say that he was God or Lord? If so, that didn't stop you from receiving Knowledge, did it? Even though your mind told you he couldn't be God. After all, God is infinite, all-powerful, etc. and it was clear that Maharaji's body was finite and he wasn't all-powerful, etc. He couldn't be God, could he? Yet a lot of premies, instructors, etc. were saying he was an incarnation of God or Lord of the Universe. And Maharaji said it himself, as well. Many of us were raised in a Western Christian tradition. Growing up we were told that Jesus was the son of God AND God at the same time. A perfect mortal. It was a confusing and conflicting concept, yes, but one we were taught early. So, no offense, your argument here doesn't hold any water. Maharaji used that belief in Christ to explain his divinity and it semed to make sense at the time.

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Date: Thurs, Jul 20, 2000 at 02:45:25 (GMT) From: Jim Email: None To: Shroomananda Subject: No, no, no! My 'whole point' is that you Message:

are a revisionist. Remember, Shroom, we were talking about that? Remember? Like you joined the thread offering your own version of Maharaji's past and then specifically asking if Joe thought you were a revisionist. Remember? So what happened? Did you lose interest in the question? Not like the answer? Or maybe you were never really asking to begin with. Which is it, Shroom? And don't think for a moment that you deserve any reply to your other comments until you've dealt with this. This is the second time you've melted down instead of answering honestly. The first was over how outsiders would perceive your posts. You said you were up to the task of doing a little reality-checking on their reasonableness (however we could work out the logistics) but then when I pointed out a most indefensible couple of comments of yours you abandoned any focus you might have had on the subject and started running at the mouth like you had rabies: [Whoa, Nellie, what does that have to do with] anything? If someone hears that Maharaji called himself God and then later renounced that claim, then decides that Maharaji is a liar and his free gift of Knowledge is not worth investigating because of that, then is that person an unbiased person or not? A person should receive Knowledge and then decide whether the gift is true for him or her at that point. If Maharaji called himself God in the first place, how do you suppose people decided whether he was God or not? Through his Knowledge. And He said that was the true test many times. Would you respect someone who said that they were looking for self-knowledge and then decided not to investigate Maharaji's gift simply on the basis that at one time He claimed to be God and then another time claimed he never claimed to be God? I sure wouldn't. Many times Maharaji said that his Knowledge was God. A true seeker would test that and then decide. THAT wasn't what we were talking about. Don't you know how to have a discussion? So now you want to do the same thing -- evade a point, change the subject -- and I say no. The subject is revisionism. You claim Maharaji didn't dissuade people from thinking he was God when, in fact, he did much worse. He claimed he was God. It doesn't matter where or when he did it. The point is he did it. You said he didn't. Thus you're a revisionist. Now can you accept that or not?

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Date: Thurs, Jul 20, 2000 at 02:52:39 (GMT) From: Shroomananda Email: None To: Jim Subject: This is way beyond my ability to respond. I think Message:

that your IQ is about 200 points higher than mine. So I'm giving up. You win. You're right. I'm mistaken. Sorry I wasted your time. Have a nice life. Bye.

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Date: Thurs, Jul 20, 2000 at 04:53:48 (GMT) From: P-man Email: None To: Shroomananda Subject: amazing Message:

Jim's IQ is probably pretty good but all he did here was stick to the point. You asked Joe if he thought you were a revisionist. Jim joined in and pointed out why you were a revisionist. You tried unsuccessfully to dodge his points and then tried to change the subject. When Jim brought you back to the question you asked, you really had no choice but to admit you were 'revising' what really happened. Anyone with common sense could see it, even you could see it. But you just can't let go of your fantasy that maharaji has given you a panacea, to the point you're willing to lie to yourself and everyone else. Your lack of self-respect here will eat away at you and your false notions about maharaji and his 'knowledge'.

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Date: Thurs, Jul 20, 2000 at 03:43:14 (GMT) From: Jim Email: None To: Shroomananda Subject: Maybe you're forgetting something basic, Shroom Message:

The truth is often, not always, but often, much simpler than lies. If you think your story's hard to hold together, think about Maharaji's. Here's a guy who blatantly denies his own words, who claims on his web site that he never claimed to be God, that he never even wanted to be a leader, for Christ's sake! It's like he's the man in the glass booth and all us exes have our noses pushed up against the glass just dieing for a little honesty. The rest of the world isn't really watching but, believe me, Shroom, if Maharaji ever came out of the foxhole and faced the press again, he'd fry. You notice that they've put up a 'press kit' on EV's site? That's a laugh! Call the number -- (818) 889-1193 (I know it by heart now I've called so often) -- and no one answers. I don't think we'll be seeing any more press conferences in the near future. Do you? Not if they're anything like the last one he gave at the Houston Astrodome in '73. Really, if you're sincerely interested in the truth here you should see 'Lord of the Universe'. It's all there, Shroom. Not just the peels but the whole fuckin' banana. So let's say there is a press conference. Say I could only submit one question. What would it be: Maharaji, Mike Donner told me that he met with you just after your close disciple, Mahatma Fakiranand, tried to murder Pat Halley. Donner told me that you ordered him to sneak Fakiranand out of the country. Is that true? or maybe it'll be this: Maharaji, my friend, Dave Wener, who first told me about you and later lived in your ashram with me, started freaking out in 1974. He told me several times that he thought his 'mind' was getting the best of him as he couldn't stop doubting your divinity. He also said that he really did 'know' that you were the Lord deep down and was extremely worried that his mind would take him away from you. He was mindful of your warning that life wasn't worth living without you but, in fact, was worse than we could ever imagine. Ever. So he hung himself. Did you know? Do you care? What, if anything, do you have to tell his family? No, Shroom, you've got it easy.

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Date: Thurs, Jul 20, 2000 at 04:16:12 (GMT) From: Shroomananda Email: None To: Jim Subject: P.S. Message:

I think Maharaji is very concerned about premies contemplating suicide. I happen to know that there are several people who are available for counseling and actively looking for depressed people at events who might be considering suicide. You know, people commit suicide in every walk of life so I don't feel it's fair to accuse him of causing suicides. Even Ramakrishna had a devotee commit suicide and he couldn't even touch money or have sex with his wife. He was a complete renunciate!

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Date: Thurs, Jul 20, 2000 at 16:19:32 (GMT) From: Jim Email: None To: Shroomananda Subject: You completely missed my point Message:

Read what happened again, Shroom. Read it and think for a moment. As for Maharaji's concern, Wener's body was shipped back to Montreal and that was that. Neither Maharaji nor anyone from DLM ever said anything ever to the family. It was only last year that I was able to talk with Dave's brother and persuade him that it wasn't murder.

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Date: Thurs, Jul 20, 2000 at 04:07:17 (GMT) From: Shroomananda Email: None To: Jim Subject: You know Message:

I've always wanted to see 'Lord of the Universe' or 'Satguru Has Come' or 'Who Is Guru Maharaj Ji?.' I did notice that there was a post here about one of them that it was being offered on EBay but I was too late to bid. I was too late for the early GMJ as well. I would have loved to have seen some of the early days when he was a kid. I'll bet it was a blast! Well, I guess you know by now that I'm a diehard. If everyone in the world said I was in a cult, if every thing I read said I was mistaken, it wouldn't affect me at all. However, if Maharaji said or did something that I considered to be out of alignment with God, I'd leave in a second. The Knowledge works. I love listening to him. The external stuff changes and pisses me off sometimes, but the core is there. Some of the milk toast premies do seem to be automatons. But I came in with both eyes open and I really do feel his love. He's made a lot of effort to spread Knowledge, you know. He even pilots his own plane, for Christ's sake. I don't think some of you consider how hard he works just to make it available to people but that's OK. I can certainly empathize with your feelings. I just don't feel the same way. Maybe if I had been around in the early days, I too would be disillusioned. But we can still talk to each other about it in a civilized way. After all we're all trying to learn.

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Date: Thurs, Jul 20, 2000 at 16:24:44 (GMT) From: Jim Email: None To: Shroomananda Subject: Wrong 'Lord of the Universe', Shroom Message:

Shroom, There were two films called 'The Lord of the Universe'. One was the first cult propaganda film (with Suzy Bai singing in the bushes at Prem Nagar). The other was an outsider's view of Maharaji and Millenium. That's the one I'm talking about. It's priceless. If you liked 'Spinal Tap' or 'Waiting for Guffman' or even 'Man Bites Dog', you've got to love it. It's got this fat, spoiled little teenager from India saying he's the saviour of mankind and all sorts of shit. His older brother (now a competing 'Master' in his own right) explains how the aliens are going to be at the festival, how, in fact, the Pope might even make it. All sorts of shit. Plus, you get a knowledge review for nothing. Plus, you get to meet the very first exes. All sorts of shit. You can buy it on Amazon.com I think.

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Date: Thurs, Jul 20, 2000 at 04:15:39 (GMT) From: Susan Email: None To: Shroomananda Subject: However, if Maharaji said or did something that I Message:

Shroomananda you said: However, if Maharaji said or did something that I considered to be out of alignment with God, I'd leave in a second. Can you cite an example or examples of what this something might be?

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Date: Thurs, Jul 20, 2000 at 05:26:50 (GMT) From: sb Email: None To: Susan Subject: Like protecting criminals? Message:

That would not be in alignment with GOD. Like lying? GOD wouldn't lie. God wouldn't trick or confuse people. We had to promise to Never leave place for doubts in our minds. shroom is faking amnesia I think....

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Date: Thurs, Jul 20, 2000 at 04:32:06 (GMT) From: Shroomananda Email: None To: Susan Subject: Well, I guess if the Knowledge didn't work or he Message:

no longer inspired me to practice or if I listened to him and didn't feel that feeling. As far as external events are concerned, shit happens. It would depend on the circumstances. If I had ironclad proof, for example, that he explicitly ordered Fakiranand to hit that reporter with a hammer, I'd have to seriously question my involvment. But smuggling Fakiranand out of the country, if he did that, wouldn't be enough. I think Fakiranand was acting out of love for his master. It wasn't right and he did seriously injure that man but I can't denounce my master for helping Fakiranand vamoose, if that's what he did. I don't know all the circumstances on that one anyway. I'm just trying to know myself and life and God and I feel like I've evolved several lifetimes by listening to him and practicing Knowledge. If I stop feeling like I'm evolving, I'll take a hard look at myself and then proceed. I hope that answered your question.

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Date: Thurs, Jul 20, 2000 at 15:52:58 (GMT) From: Jim Email: None To: Shroomananda Subject: What about this, Shroom? Message:

From EV's new FAQs: Has Elan Vital covered up alleged past improper behavior? Elan Vital’s policy is that everyone, whether a paid employee or volunteer, must behave with respect and decency. In this respect our guidelines are similar to those of any other responsible profit or not-for-profit organization. ElanVital adheres to widely accepted practices in dealing with reasonable complaints made against any of our personnel, using established internal and external disciplinary procedures and, if necessary, in conjunction with relevant external legislation. (emphasis added). Is there any level of hypocrisy that might catch in your craw? Even 'shit happens' can only take one so far.

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Date: Thurs, Jul 20, 2000 at 17:37:54 (GMT) From: VP Email: None To: Jim Subject: What about this, Shroom? Message:

That quoted from EV made me laugh so hard, Jim! Boy, they are trying to give DLM a little Westernized 80's style credibility. But sounding professional/on the up and up and BEING professional/on the up and up are two different animals.

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Date: Thurs, Jul 20, 2000 at 14:02:40 (GMT) From: Susan Email: None To: Shroomananda Subject: hmm... Message:

But Shroom, if he really is your master, and revelaed knowledge to you, how could he really do anything wrong? That would make you question him? If he ordered the attack on Pat Haley for throwing the pie in his face, and lets say you KNEW he did it because you had a video of it or witnessed it, or he admitted it to you, perhaps there would be a reason beyond your understanding for it? Really, who are you to question his motives? What kind of faith do you have? Is your faith conditional? Are you admitting you possibly could be wrong about him? And if you are admitting that there are things he could do which would prove him to not be worthy of your loyalty; doesn't it follow that perhaps he could be unworthy of your loyalty without doing something as atrocious as ordering a murder because someone embarrassed him in public? For example, just for argument, think about this: a person pretends to be 'God' 'Satguru' 'master' ( you pick the word ) and lives an exemplary life, moral in everyway, isn't he just a better actor than one who pretends and screws up all the time by acting unGodlike? I am not sure about your gradations of what it takes to fall off the perfect master pedestal. Sounds like a slippery slope to me. I'd say you better get a video out, sign up for the next event, and meditate. Either that, or as Jim challenges you to, honestly look at the information about your master and Elan Vital. If knowledge/EV/Rawat are not just another cult they will hold up to the scrutiny of your engaging in an HONEST debate, right?

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Date: Thurs, Jul 20, 2000 at 00:50:46 (GMT) From: Shroomananda Email: None To: Jim Subject: Oh, I'm dealing with it. I'm shouting it in the Message:

streets. I even practiced this morning so I'm even more inspired! Peace.

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Date: Thurs, Jul 20, 2000 at 01:24:22 (GMT) From: Jerry Email: None To: Shroomananda Subject: Now, now, Shroo Message:

Don't say 'peace'. You know you don't mean it. You're just trying to rub our faces in it what a wonderful experience you had this morning.

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Date: Thurs, Jul 20, 2000 at 01:55:40 (GMT) From: Shroomananda Email: None To: Jerry Subject: You're right Jerry. And now I've pissed Message:

Jim off so much that he's trying to get me kicked off! Jeesh!

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Date: Thurs, Jul 20, 2000 at 01:05:54 (GMT) From: P-man Email: None To: Shroomananda Subject: Maharaji's empty 'Knowledge' Message:

I tried maharaji's 'Knowledge' and it's useless. It doesn't do anything and it doesn't give you happiness or peace. Maharaji runs an insignificant cult that programs the minds of vulnerable people. He's under average intelligence and he gives terrible, terrible advice. Overall, I'd rate his teachings at about 1 on a scale of 1-10.

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Date: Thurs, Jul 20, 2000 at 01:01:20 (GMT) From: Jim Email: None To: Shroomananda Subject: No, Shroom, that's NOT 'dealing with it' Message:

You offered your own capsule summary of Maharaji's history and sepecifically asked if you were a revisionist. I pointed out just one of many passages which, in my opinion, prove that you are indeed a revisionist. Instead of dealing with that you just say something entirely off-topic. Really, if you're not up to a discussion why join in in the first place? I'm warning you, by the way, that I'm going to lobby with all I've got to get you kicked out of here if you can't discuss matters sincerely. I might not be successful but then again I might. I just can't see the wisdom in allowing people like you to post here once you've deomonstrated an unwillingness to even attempt to reason honestly.

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Date: Thurs, Jul 20, 2000 at 01:57:15 (GMT) From: Salam Email: None To: Jim Subject: Jim, if you notice, premies can not tolerate Message:

being in prolonged intellegant conversation. They run out of steam quick, so they go back to their blanket for a recharge. Amazing that after 20 year of rubing shoulder with truth, you wake up one and find yourself on the wroung side of the river. Shroom is not to be blamed, she/he is only a human, it's Lardy that has wipped her mind clean, I pitty those that are still under his spell, they are definitly puppets. There reaction to anything involving Lardy is only spontanious, they can not help it, neither they know it. They are like a traind guard dog, if you approach his master it will byte you. Having a dialogue with them is totally pointless, and most of the time the conversation deterirate into the sewar.Anything you say is considered an attack on Lardy and they have to react. This was not contested in the past, but now that we have broken free, his 'servants' are finding it impossoble to get anywhere with there pathetic tacktics, its like tying a bull with a cotton wool, does not work. I find hard to get angry with premies, they only frustrate me with their stupidity.

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Date: Thurs, Jul 20, 2000 at 00:48:19 (GMT) From: Susan Email: None To: Jim Subject: well said Jim! (nt) Message:

nt

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Date: Wed, Jul 19, 2000 at 23:30:50 (GMT) From: VP Email: None To: Everyone Subject: But were/are you happy? Message:

When I read the premie stuff from ELK it is always dripping with happiness. (Edited happiness, mind you, but dripping, nonetheless) A premie friend of mine committed suicide while also 'high on Maharaji'. The question is, how happy were you practising knowledge? I'm not asking about whether or not you enjoyed the friendship of other premies, or the freedom of youth, or relating in Satsang or traveling to programs. I'm asking how happy you were practising knowledge. Precisely what did Marharaji HIMSELF do to make you happy?

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Date: Fri, Jul 21, 2000 at 01:31:53 (GMT) From: hamzen Email: None To: VP Subject: But were/are you happy? Message:

The meditation as meditation and as a part of a zenish attitude to living worked and still does fine for me, but gm was another ball game, all of my problems 'around' were directly due to him. (1) The organisation was obviously completely crap, but by the mid eighties I could no longer blame that on the premies, it became very obvious he was incompetent, and I seriously began to doubt that he wanted to spread this knowledge at all. (2) Most of the premies I knew were obviously getting very little of real benefit from practising and it seemed obvious to me that that was because of their confusion because they were always trying to fit in with the messages of gm, contradictory and forked tongued as they were, and allowed themselves to get fucked up in the head because of the social pressures of being a 'premie', and those social pressures came directly from quotes of gm. By the mid eighties this meant it was obvious he had either a serious lack of awareness about psychology, or lack of care about the effects of his words. (3) He was a source of complete embarrassment when talking about the experience of knowledge to people not involved, having to justify his lifestyle to people was impossible, even I couldn't hang onto 'he only does it to blow peoples concepts' for so long, because it was obvious that a lot of premies were trying to ape his lifestyle, and non-premies mostly laughed at that explanation. When he needed to go completely humble and non-materialistic to blow their concepts, no change, la de da. (4) The half monty bum wiggling krishna crowning was excruciating to behold, and was seriously dodgy to me, and at the least was bound to lead to a lot of confusion, distraction, and for women, didn't think of or know any gay premies then, obviously interpreted as sexual mixed with an attractive shyness by a lot of people. (5) Hated the abuse that leaked from him on a regular basis and the attempt to fill people with guilt, in nearly every one of his speeches. (6) Because of the above and other things, like how come the people nearer gm were the biggest arseholes & fakes in the premie community meant I invested in the lila concept big time, which was seriously a fuck up mentally. (7) Always had real problems with his squeeky voice, and his dissociation from his body, so un real. Anybody I knew who got a lot from meditation, and myself, experienced the exact opposite from our experiences. (8) Hated his suits, hair style, moustaches, lack of style in general, especially since he seemed to think these made him appear 'cool'. (9) Positive stuff about him, the basic taoist/buddhist about living stuff sprinkled amongst his satsangs, confirmed stuff I already believed, but even there after every one of his okish quotes there was always some really dodgy quote I couldn't relate to at all. (10) For a long time I was very grateful to him for the techniques and the experiences I had by practicing the techniques, thought they were his, via shri hans, didn't know they were bog standard, I was seriously unschooled about spiritual traditions. (11) Occasionally used to get energy rushes looking at him, which I thought were because he was experiencing something strong in that moment & leaking it. (12) Then, I was inspired by him in my detchment from everything, and increases in confidence due to spiritual arrogance, some of the worst by products of his character. Overall he was a source of complete confusion and self-doubt, and a serious distraction, and later on a source of anger. That anger turned to serious disillusionment and loss of hope in all spiritual leaders, more than ever before, and myself, since as detached from him as I was, it made me realize how bad my judgements could be, and how slow I was to realize this. It meant a long time afterwards I was still ripping myself to shreads, rotten vegetables indeed. The only thing I can thank him for now, is how acutely aware of spin and dodgy logic I am now, that he got me into analysing language at a level I doubt I would ever have done otherwise, and the black humour of it all, very intense and seriously Basil Faulty'ish. Oh and walking when I still didn't know if this was all some gigantic cosmic lila, meant I found a level of courage mentally that I hadn't had before. Oh and because of this all, have finally come to terms with my shadow side.

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Date: Fri, Jul 21, 2000 at 17:20:09 (GMT) From: gerry Email: glyng@techline.com To: hamzen Subject: Absolutely one of the ***BEST*** ham, and Message:

could you please resend your snail mail address? Tape is ready to go but I deleted all old mail en mass in disgust after being barraged with messages from this other support group I joined for a while.

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Date: Fri, Jul 21, 2000 at 20:20:03 (GMT) From: ham Email: None To: gerry Subject: Will do (and thanx) (nt) Message:

a

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Date: Fri, Jul 21, 2000 at 17:05:30 (GMT) From: Katie Email: None To: hamzen Subject: the shadow side Message:

Hi Hamzen - I really liked your post. Quite honest and incisive (as usual). Re the shadow side or dark side - I had already left the cult for a few years before I understood what this was. I was 21 when I left, so that may have been part of that - at that age, you still tend to want to think of everything as 'rainbows and unicorns' if you know what I mean (like, 'why does the Grateful Dead have to have all those yucky skeletons on its records?' I seriously thought this!) But I am sure being in the cult didn't help me recognize it at all - anything 'shadowy' was summarily rejected, or seen as part of 'the mind'. I think it's very important for everyone to see that part of themselves and integrate/recognize it - otherwise it can control you. And those people who try to pretend that they don't have a dark side are VERY scary, and are capable of doing some horrible things. Take care, Katie

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Date: Fri, Jul 21, 2000 at 21:45:19 (GMT) From: ham Email: None To: Katie Subject: the shadow side Message:

Re the shadow side or dark side - I had already left the cult for a few years before I understood what this was. I was 21 when I left, so that may have been part of that - at that age, you still tend to want to think of everything as 'rainbows and unicorns' if you know what I mean (like, 'why does the Grateful Dead have to have all those yucky skeletons on its records?' I seriously thought this!) So did I believe this, but what is really worrying is that I still believed this at 42. Yeah I know, unreal isn't it! But I am sure being in the cult didn't help me recognize it at all - anything 'shadowy' was summarily rejected, or seen as part of 'the mind'. If you mix that in with a 70's joni mitchell style pure love romanticism, well you can understand that I've had some social learning to do. Thank god for this house music generation who made me realize there was a third way where you could integrate the sensitivity without the illusions and actually enhance it. I think it's very important for everyone to see that part of themselves and integrate/recognize it - otherwise it can control you. And those people who try to pretend that they don't have a dark side are VERY scary, and are capable of doing some horrible things. Or they are like 'nice' premies who don't understand social communication at all, 'child mind stuff'! Frightening shit really heh. Think it's the reason why that 'bad faith' stuff of premies here is really doing my head in, the adolescent games playing, there's gonna be some seriously sad premies around when they're seventy and it all gets a bit too real, cause you just know he ain't gonna be around for em at all then, he'll be off yachting it around

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Date: Fri, Jul 21, 2000 at 10:04:32 (GMT) From: Halzen Email: None To: hamzen Subject: Great post ham nt Message:

d

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Date: Fri, Jul 21, 2000 at 22:01:16 (GMT) From: ham Email: None To: Halzen Subject: Poor ole Nuno! Message:

And it ended up with Italy v France, not Holland v Portugal, but what a great tourno, so fucking deep, if porky had a quarter of the depth of it we'd probably all still be there, and that's the most worrying thing of all! And at long last, after 30 fucking years, think the message has sunk in here, next season's gonna be fascinating. Everyone over the hangover there? Everytime you post I think of sunshine. We've had one week in may, from the saturday we beat germany to the day we lost to the romanies (bizarre & almost cosmic), and the last two days! The last few weeks have been grey, grey, grey, fucking cold, almost frosts in the morning, and wet like you can't believe. Hope you're having a good one for me.

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Date: Thurs, Jul 20, 2000 at 22:10:34 (GMT) From: Hal Email: None To: VP Subject: But were/are you happy? Message:

What precisely did Mahaha himself do to make me happy? Errr Let me think eerrr ummm ...you mean without the satsang sharing, going to programs, premie friendships ...errrr without those ..yes well of course he revealed...no actually that was a little Indian lady..he gave lots of inspir..no that was boring really... oh have to get back to you on that one... sorry... hal

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Date: Thurs, Jul 20, 2000 at 05:09:00 (GMT) From: Joe Email: None To: VP Subject: But were/are you happy? Message:

Good question. I have obviously thought a lot about this and this is how it was for me. I would say that for the first year as a premie I was kind of on a certain 'high' most of the time. This wasn't due to meditation or knowledge, it was due to the fact that I believed Maharaji really was going to bring peace to the world and I was a part of it. Also, I dumped my whole life and became an ashram premie. There is something very liberating about breaking all your ties and completely changing your identity. It feels very freeing. Of course, this didn't last very long. For the rest of the 10 years I was a premie, for the most part I was sometimes happy, and sometimes unhappy, in the same mix as I was before I got knowledge and since I left. But there were fairly long periods when I was really miserable because I was stiffling my ambition and abilities and because there was a constant drum beat from Maharaji that we were insignificant pieces of dust and had no ability to do anything without his grace. Plus, like Susan said, my brain kept working and telling me what a crock of crap it all was and that Maharaji was a greedy, and not very smart charlatan, and like any premie I was well programmed to blame myself for having those thoughts. Fighting with that day in and day out was really a drag. I think also as a premie, I longed for a personal, intimate relationship with another person and I was denied that, since Maharaji said put nothing in between me and him. And since I kept seeing Maharaji as a greasy, spoiled child, and since I never even met the guy, I never felt much of an 'intimate' relationship with him. As I have said before, I began to see that the vast majority of the premies I knew were miserable most of the time. I saw the misery in them before I really recognized it in myself.

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Date: Thurs, Jul 20, 2000 at 01:05:23 (GMT) From: Susan Email: None To: VP Subject: But were/are you happy? Message:

Sometimes I was deleriously, 'blissfully' happy. Let's say the 'high' of a festival, especially Holi, which I used to especially get off on. I also would have these times having satsang with other premies in which I felt these deep connections and specialness with other people. Rarely, did I find meditation to make me happy. That was sort of like the nasty medicine you had to drink to be a part of the group. I tried though. I also had lots of times in which I was utterly miserable. Someone would hurt me, or I would want something I could not have. I especially recall wanting to be around the guru very badly. I also always struggled with doubt. I did not admit this to myself, but I had a lot of doubts all along. And I as all good premies did attributed those doubts to 'mr. Mind' and the doubts in themselves tended to prove what Rawat was saying was true, that your mind was evil and in some devil like fashion would tempt you away from the Lord. I recall crying sometimes about these doubts, when they would break through. They really scared me. I hve relayed this before, but once in a darshan line, the very moment a premie is supposed to be happiest, I was overcome with doubt. I looked at the guru, and I thought he looked angry, bored and he clearly had not the slightest idea who I was. I left and was sobbing. Because the thoughts were not the sort I could dismiss. The premies around me thought I was blissed out. I was distraught and wanted to run from the Miami Beach Convention Center and never look back. But I think I finally did decide it was my mind testing me. And I buried that day in my subconcious for awhile. I think I left about a year later. I remember some happy times, I remember a lot of sad conflicted times. But what I most wasn't as a premie is honest with myself. Life is happy and sad now too, but my happiness is based on things that are real. I am not trying to convince myself that some short little Indian guy at the end of a tunnel gives a shit about me.

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Date: Thurs, Jul 20, 2000 at 02:45:59 (GMT) From: VP Email: None To: Susan Subject: But were/are you happy? Message:

Susan, That was a very emotional post, so moving! I brought tears to my eyes. Thank you very much for taking the time to write it. It helped me to hear what you had to say because I imagine that my friend who died was probably experiencing emotions very similar to what you went through. (Doubts, despair, etc.) Sincerely, VP

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Date: Thurs, Jul 20, 2000 at 00:48:43 (GMT) From: Beverley Eyre Email: fbe2@ucla.edu To: VP Subject: But were/are you happy? Message:

What was the name of the premie who committed suicide? I knew one too: Ken Cooper. Bev

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Date: Thurs, Jul 20, 2000 at 02:34:27 (GMT) From: VP Email: None To: Beverley Eyre Subject: But were/are you happy? Message:

I'm sorry to hear about Ken Cooper. Katie had a premie friend who committed suicide. So did Jim Heller. I hesitate to mention my friend's name on the forum. Peace, VP

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Date: Thurs, Jul 20, 2000 at 16:27:30 (GMT) From: Joe Email: None To: VP Subject: Another Premie Suicide Message:

A premie I knew, Greg Dickey, committed suicide in 1975. He had received knowledge around the time I did a couple of years before. He just drove a van off to the side of a freeway and offed himself. There was one attempted suicide of an ashram premie I lived with, and I have already mentioned that my ashram roommate at one point attempted to castrate himself because his 'mind,' in the form of sexual thoughts, was trying to get him to break his ashram vows of celibacy. Elan Vital gave him no psychiatric help whatsoever. The answer for all problems was, of course, to do more satsang, service and meditation. I think I mentioned this once before, but in 1980, Elan Vital came out with a glossy brochure aimed at the general public, with testimonials from and pictures of appropriately successful and attractive premies about how wonderful 'knowledge' was, with no mention that Maharaji was, at the time, saying that devoting your life to him was the purpose of your exisitence. Anyhow, between the time the brochure was prepared and before it was distributed, one of the 'wonderfully happy' premies in the brochure, a guy from Brazil, committed suicide. Even at the time, many of us considered this rather ironic.

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Date: Thurs, Jul 20, 2000 at 16:45:50 (GMT) From: Way Email: None To: Joe Subject: Wow, and yet another Message:

The Brazilian story is very telling! In 1985 or so, a few days after seeing Maharaji in Miami, my friend Craig M. killed himself by shooting himself in the head. One approach to the mind problem, I guess. His premie roommate found him. Quite a shock.

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Date: Thurs, Jul 20, 2000 at 01:16:53 (GMT) From: An Observer Email: None To: Beverley Eyre Subject: Another premie death Message:

Dear Beverley, I knew a VERY DEVOTED premie once that died of a heroin overdose. There is a picture of him carrying Maharaji placards with the other great souls/ Maharma ji's. Black & white on J.M's site. They didn't go to his funeral or visit him in hospital - mahatmas don't do that kind of thing because they are TOO busy serving the LORD. His name by the way ws Dougie Little. Anyone out there from Scotland remember him and his devotion? An Observer

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Date: Thurs, Jul 20, 2000 at 17:15:55 (GMT) From: cq Email: None To: An Observer Subject: I remember Dougie Message:

He was the kind of premie you'd think Maharaji was trying to get us all to be. I remember him as being absolutely total in his devotion - to the point where I (maybe even he) wasn't sure where devotion ended and obsession began. Not sure if he joined the ashram in Edinburgh after I'd left or not, I'll check sometime with Jenny from the Glasgow ashram. One things for sure - Dougie would have been better off if he hadn't heard of the Maha. (IMO)

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Date: Thurs, Jul 20, 2000 at 14:44:02 (GMT) From: Voyeur Email: None To: An Observer Subject: Another premie death Message:

I spent several weekends at a premie house that Doug Little shared just outside Oxford, England, 25 years ago. He was a sweet innocent soul and it pains me to think that he committed suicide.

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Date: Thurs, Jul 20, 2000 at 00:43:09 (GMT) From: Good Question Email: None To: VP Subject: This is how I felt Message:

Dear Vice President, Sometimes I 'got off' on meditation like M talks about - like pressing the reset button, all very cosmic and at the same time very practical. Most of the time, a very long time of 30 odd years, I got very anxious about practicing/not practicing. When I see premies doing service I see the same kind of anxiety even though they say they are blissed out. Now I'm weighing up the pros and cons and feel that I'll meditate when I want to meditate and for how long I want to meditate. I feel a sense of balance can even be reached by not meditating particularly but resting, getting centred and in touch with who you really are, which by the way is definately not dependent or connected to m in any way shape or form but there seems to be a lot of anxiety caused by premies being told that this experience of who you really are is connected or comes from m. This may be the reason there have been so many breakdowns and suicides and premies 'thrown by the wayside as crazies over the years. Bye for now, Good Question

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Date: Thurs, Jul 20, 2000 at 15:02:31 (GMT) From: Way Email: None To: Good Question Subject: happy? Message:

It is fairly easy to read between the lines on the posts over at ELK. They always express the positives they are feeling, but they rarely acknowledge the negatives. And those negatives can be quite heavy for premies, and they are always right there between the lines. For instance, there is a recent post by Nina Shakespeare and her friend, who post quite often. They live in the Orient somewhere. They have a friend who lives in the Philipines and one of them has a son in North America. Anyway, they all attended the recent Boston program, and super-devotees that they are, they also attended the Toronto program! This was definitely naughty, since the programs were only for North Americans and you were supposed to attend one program only, since there was limited seating available. But true gopis get around such rules, eh? Well, they all had a super-wonderful time and they couldn't believe what luck they were having to bathe in so much of Mr. Rawat's love. Nina's son exclaimed, 'I was dying, but I am alive again.' How are we to take such statements? Does anyone really want to follow in these people's footsteps, traveling around the world for an hour of Mr. Rawat's presence, and a remote presence on a stage at that? Once or twice a year? If so, what about the off times where we get to waste away with longing? Read between the lines, people! I know how I answer these questions, because I once lived the life. The whole affaire is a put-on, a self-delusional play. But not to worry - while the devotees of the Master are busy thirsting for his perfect love, they are also busy satisfying their basic human needs with all the less than perfect alternatives. I was very happy in the ashram, as long as I could spend some intimate satsang time with the brother I was secretly in love with, and as long as I could drive one of the cars out in the country while smoking half a pack of Kools, as long as I had my prefered service to perform and didn't have to grocery shop, etc. etc. etc. I also had my own picture collection of the Perfect Master of our time, I was one of his chosen ones, I had relatively good seats at his programs. It was so blissful to dance with him, just him. His discourse was a bit juvenile, but that was easily filed away in the 'to ignore' file, (a fairly large file after awhile). All in all, I look back at my ashram days with nostalgia for the people and the drama and the normal human adventure of it all. But as for the Perfect Master and the Knowledge of All Knowledges, it was all a fantasy. Mr. Rawat is just a cardboard figurehead, even though he says he isn't. When people are on a wild goose chase, they eventually realize that they are never going to catch the goose and then they stop. Like Mr. Rawat says, 'if you don't like it, then walk.' Bye, Bye!

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Date: Fri, Jul 21, 2000 at 16:01:49 (GMT) From: Good Question Email: None To: Way Subject: happy? Message:

Dear Way, I had always assumed you were male until now. Thanks for another intelligent and insightful post. Forgive me if you are gay, Way. Thanks again, Good Question ps are you American or English or neither? - there I go assuming again making an ass out of u and me.

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Date: Fri, Jul 21, 2000 at 16:13:45 (GMT) From: Way Email: None To: Good Question Subject: To Good Question Message:

Hi GQ, I am gay, and you're forgiven. And I'm American, not British, although 3 of my grandparents came over from Cornwall in the early 1900's. I have posted a journey entry, if you're curious. I am not familiar with you, so you probably have not posted much before, or under another pen-name. At any rate, thanks for your input.

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Date: Wed, Jul 19, 2000 at 22:44:56 (GMT) From: Pauline Premie Email: None To: Everyone Subject: More Proof that Maharaji is Consistent Message:

Boy, by the grace of the master who never asked us to ever do a damn thing except have that experience of love, completely free of charge, the premies I live with are just working their fingers to the bone, almost as much as Elan Vital Volunteers, and so I get a chance to use their computer, so here I am again, trying to bring some understanding to this barren place. I was just reading again the updated Elan Vital site about how Maharaji has never said that it is necessary to devote yourself to him, and that Maharaji's message has never changed. In finding more proof for that, I was reading my old Divine Times, also a publication of Elan Vital, from January/February, 1980. In that edition, there is a reprint from Maharaji's speech on Christmas Day, 1979. The greatest pilot in the world couldn't be more clear when he said: And there is only one path: to become a devotee, to completely dedicate, to completely be dedicated and to completely let go of this life...And the only reason for this existence is to be a devotee. And the only thing that ever happens is devotion. And this mind, body and soul are focused on one thing and that is devotion to Guru Maharaj Ji.' 'A devotee will follow their Guru Maharaj Ji wherever Guru Maharaj Ji goes and not be involved in anything else.' Guru Maharaj Ji's Grace is that power that pulls you out....Guru Maharaj Ji's Grace is that power that saves a being. And only when we become a devotee, only then are we even capable of receiving that Grace.' 'And the ones who deserve it get it. When those devotees those beings who have recognized their Guru Maharaj Ji, those beings. And once I was just reading that statement of Kabirdas. And he says, 'PEOPLE WHO CONSIDER GURU MAHARAJ JI SOMETHING ELSE ARE DEFINITELY BOUND TO HELL.'' THERE'S NO IF'S, AND'S AND BUT'S ABOUT IT.' I mean, that couldn't be more beautiful, and it becomes more clear when you delete that confusing Hindu term, 'Guru' which Maharaji did shortly after he started using it. It couldn't be clearer that Maharaji never said that you had to devote yourself to him, (although he did say it was the purpose of your existence), or that you have to give up everything to him to follow him (besides, mind, body and soul that is), or that he is here to save you (but I guess his grace does), nor that anything bad would happen if you ever stop recognizing Maharaji as the master worthy of 100% dedication (except going to hell.) I mean it's just so clear that if you want to go to hell, it's really okay to just try knowledge and then move on if you don't like it. See, no contradiction there at all. And I gotta say, a lot of you ex-premies are really going to hell in a handbasket. Aren't you worried about your immortal souls? Don't you worry about the sins and bad karma you are acquiring by leaving something that is so beautiful, but which Maharaji has always said you are free to leave it you don't like it? Isn't it clear that Maharaji is always consistent in what he has said over the entire time he has been in the West? I am just so glad that I have the understanding to see that. Understanding is such a gift.

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Date: Thurs, Jul 20, 2000 at 02:30:42 (GMT) From: la-ex Email: None To: Pauline Premie Subject: More Proof that Maharaji is Consistent Message:

forum administrators-please save this quote.It's a gem!

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Date: Thurs, Jul 20, 2000 at 00:55:41 (GMT) From: Good Question Email: None To: Pauline Premie Subject: Seeing as you haven't been kicked off yet Message:

Dear Pauline, I would love to know who you REALLY are? Perhaps as you haven't been asked to leave you could do us a great service/ sorry participate and let us all see your journey. I bet YOUR journey would be really interesting and hillariously funny most probably! Love Yer, Good Question ps I feel like asking Charanand a few questions too. As he has told us many times he is not his 'humble persona' type body. Does he realise that in this guise he has persuaded many people to follow m and become really mixed up? I think I for one followed m because of him rather than becaise of m's satsang. In fact when I first saw m on stage it was an immediate turn off and yet I still followed him because of our humble friend Char. Now as has been told he's too busy playing golf and tennis with premies money too be caring about some of the damage that's been done. Shame on you, Char. I even feel bad about saying this because you are sooooo sweeeet. And another thing, Glen and Ron Geaves you know that Jagdeo is in India so lets get moving on this inquiry, pleeese.

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Date: Thurs, Jul 20, 2000 at 10:28:59 (GMT) From: Jethro Email: None To: Good Question Subject: charanand quotes Message:

Reading your post reminded me some of the 'jewels' that charanand has uttered: 'To lie from the mind is okay, but a lie from the soul is damning oneself.'(maybe someone could explain this) 'You know when you have reached the point of devotion when you get the vision of HIS golden lotus feet in your meditation' and something about that when you cry cold tears they are the REAL tears of devotion.

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Date: Thurs, Jul 20, 2000 at 14:07:13 (GMT) From: Susan Email: None To: Jethro Subject: cold tears of real devotion Message:

yes, I think a lot of people at Ev cry cold tears. Some of them are showing themselves to have evolved into being cold blooded reptiles. Knowledge works. I think when Abi's Dad reported Jagdeo to Charnanand he shed some cold tears?

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Date: Thurs, Jul 20, 2000 at 22:02:04 (GMT) From: Lotus Eater Email: None To: Susan Subject: cold tears of real devotion Message:

In my k session, mahatma adharanand said that when I received k, my tears would become cold, (don't recall him saying they were a sign of devotion, giggle). It is some kind of physiological phenomena and refers to the physical sensation. Funnily enough, I did experience it when he did the light technique on me.

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Date: Thurs, Jul 20, 2000 at 04:36:17 (GMT) From: Pauline Premie Email: None To: Good Question Subject: No Journey From ME... Message:

Just how stupid do you think I am? You ex-premies just twist everything anyway, with your logic and arguments. So much mind. I'm not about to write a 'Journey.' My goal is to try to bring some truth to this forum, to counter all the lies I read here, not to give you more ammunition for spreading confusion. For example, Charanand used to be a saint, but isn't anymore. I mean he never was a saint; it was just a Hindu concept that he was. We Western premies were so caught up in our concepts and poor Charanand just couldn't help it. Also, when Maharaji wore Krishna outfits and a Krishna crown, and then when he danced half naked on the stage in front of thousands of people while wearing his Krishna crown, he wasn't really trying to act like Krishna, even though Krishna did that, and he wasn't implying that he was an incarnation of God or a messiah like Krishna. No, he was just so advanced for his time, that as early as 1978 he was leading us in AEROBICS. He was just so brilliant. It wasn't for another three years that the aerobic class craze hit. Out of his love he gave us that ahead of everyone else. It was just so loving and insightful of him -- just like how he saved all the premies from 'drug culture' who lived in the ashram. I mean, how brilliant was that? Who would have ever thought? Like the song we still sing to Maharaji at programs. 'He is lila, lila and his game has just begun.' Just watch -- in no time the masses will come to his feet and beg for knowledge. I know that is just around the corner, now that we are in Phase II.

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Date: Thurs, Jul 20, 2000 at 18:39:42 (GMT) From: Zelda Email: None To: Pauline Premie Subject: Pauline uyou are wrong there... Message:

Mahaha couln't have introduced aerobics that early . Know why? Because RICHARD SIMMONS had already started his classes where he led the dance in front of a crowd. Whats more the ORIGINAL Richard Simmons fittness place which had the first juice bar. He was in competition with Jack La Lane. Jack had no pre-aerobics and this led to his downfall. So there. Sheesh. Typical. No knowledge of the world so you think the good lord invented Aerobics! Get a life. Zelda, CAA. Couch Aerobic Anthropology

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Date: Thurs, Jul 20, 2000 at 00:25:50 (GMT) From: Jim Email: None To: Pauline Premie Subject: ***Holy cow! JM, please note*** Message:

Good work, Pauline (and very astute reply, Donny)! JM, this quote's a keeper, don't you think?

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Date: Thurs, Jul 20, 2000 at 17:27:26 (GMT) From: Jean-Michel Email: None To: Jim Subject: Hey Jim and EV forum monitors !!! Message:

It's already on my website !!!!! The Christmas Satsang Christmas Satsang, December 25, 1979, as published in THE DIVINE TIMES, January/February, 1980.

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Date: Thurs, Jul 20, 2000 at 01:38:39 (GMT) From: Donny Devotee Email: None To: Jim Subject: ***Holy cow! JM, please note*** Message:

Thank you, Jim. I'm glad you're beginning to understand. Big kiss from Maharaji. Smoooooch!

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Date: Thurs, Jul 20, 2000 at 01:12:55 (GMT) From: Susan Email: None To: Jim Subject: I agree!!!!!!!!! Message:

If we ever get it together enough to do a page on their 'FAQ' or 'FUQ's as one of us labeled them, that quote has gotta be there.

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Date: Wed, Jul 19, 2000 at 23:21:05 (GMT) From: Donny Devotee Email: None To: Pauline Premie Subject: More Proof that Maharaji is Consistent Message:

Thank you, Pauline, for attempting to clarify for these ex-premies the meaning of Maharaji's words. But you should save your breath (for meditating on that love). These people have no understanding so the words of Maharaji are always misunderstood by them. They keep on posting all these things that Maharaji said about being God and all. As if that means something. Who cares what Maharaji says? I just want that experience. What else is there? You know what? I'm taking a stand, here. MAHARAJI CAN SAY WHATEVER THE HELL HE WANTS! I DON'T CARE! BIG DEAL! There, I said it. Maybe these ex-premies think it's important what Maharji says, but what do they know? It's the experience, the experience, just like Maharaji says.

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Date: Wed, Jul 19, 2000 at 23:04:06 (GMT) From: VP Email: None To: Pauline Premie Subject: Pauline, you are priceless-nt :) Message:

keep writing, you are very funny

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Date: Wed, Jul 19, 2000 at 18:01:24 (GMT) From: Jerry Email: None To: Everyone Subject: The wisdom of the Shroo Message:

This has got to be the most inane, spectacular, incredulous premie post, EVER. I don't know where Shroomananda's head was at when he said this, (probably up his ass somewhere), but it really deserves a thread of it's own. So, for your enjoyment... Would you respect someone who said that they were looking for self-knowledge and then decided not to investigate Maharaji's gift simply on the basis that at one time He claimed to be God and then another time claimed he never claimed to be God? I sure wouldn't. Shroomananda, 7/18/00 Way to go, Shroo. You want to think a little about this gem of your's before you comment on it? Or should I just start laughing, seeing as it was just a joke and nothing to take seriously? I mean, I'm laughing already, but maybe I shouldn't. Maybe you really were being serious.

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Date: Wed, Jul 19, 2000 at 23:28:19 (GMT) From: Shroomananda Email: None To: Jerry Subject: Reply to Jerry Message:

It all boils down to the gift of Knowledge, doesn't it? Either it works for you or it doesn't. Let me ask you, Jerry, when you were aspiring, did you ever hear him imply or say that he was God or Lord? If so, that didn't stop you from receiving Knowledge, did it? Even though your mind told you he couldn't be God. After all, God is infinite, all-powerful, etc. and it was clear that Maharaji's body was finite and he wasn't all-powerful, etc. He couldn't be God, could he? Yet a lot of premies, instructors, etc. were saying he was an incarnation of God or Lord of the Universe. When I was investigating, I read all the old satsangs I could find and there were some that quoted Maharaji as saying 'I'm not God. My Knowledge is God' or 'I'm just a humble servant of God.' Other quotes said, 'A rose does not call itself a rose' or 'Owner of the car' or 'Guru Maharaj Ji is all-powerful...' or some other statement implying that he was God. So, like most of the 'ex' premies on this site, I was faced with a dilemma. Here was a man claiming to be God and also claiming he wasn't. One or the other of the statements had to be not true according to logic and reason. But since the Knowledge was free, I decided to receive it and the experience it provided me was all I needed to know. Even now if someone were to ask me whether he's an incarnation or not, I wouldn't be able to tell him one way or the other. He showed me how to access the life force within me. Period. When I was an aspirant, I'd listen to satsang and that might when I was going to sleep, I'd ask God to reveal himself to me. I'd come to the conclusion after reading many scriptures that God was light, and that light was within me. But never once before Knowledge did I see light within me. This morning, when I practiced, I did. That ineffable light was dancing within me. That's my proof. And, of course, the peaceful feeling it provides me. I don't always perceive light or experience peace when I practice, but thanks to Knowledge, I know it's there. And I thank Maharaji with all my heart for providing me with the tools to experience it on occasion. By the way, Christ said 'I and my Father are one' implying that he was God. Then someone addressed him as Father and he said not to call him that, that he was a servant of God and that there was just one Father and he was in heaven. So Christ called himself God and then also said he wasn't God. Interesting, isn't it? Was he a liar, too? It didn't stop John or Peter or the rest of his devotees from listening to him or receiving the kingdom of God within, did it? That's about all the 'wisdom' I can muster at this time. How about you? Enjoy.

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Date: Thurs, Jul 20, 2000 at 00:10:51 (GMT) From: Jerry Email: None To: Shroomananda Subject: Reply to Jerry Message:

Do what you want, Shroo. I, myself, see nothing unusual when I meditate. I don't know what people who do are talking about. I really don't. So, I feel at disadvantage because of that. Still, I became a premie, and remained one for the length of time that I did in the hopes that Maharaji could show me God. Now he doesn't even stake a claim on being able to do that. How come? There are still people in this world searching for God. Maharaji no longer caters to them, where before they were his biggest draw. Now, he just talks about inner peace, joy, stuff like that. It's almost as if to search for God has become taboo. Why? I think this is an important question. It has nothing to do with culture clash. Faith in God is worldwide. Searching for him is also. But that's no longer what Maharaji is about. Even if he was intent on removing the Hindu trapings from Knowledge, he didn't have to stop making the quest for God a priority of his students. But that's what he's done. Why? Is there no God to find? Is that what he's trying to say? Just settle for peace, God no longer is?

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Date: Thurs, Jul 20, 2000 at 00:46:52 (GMT) From: Shroomananda Email: None To: Jerry Subject: You can't please everybody, Jerry. Message:

A few years ago, I heard him say that he noticed that whenever he talked about God and then threw it open for questions, that all of the questions were about God. So the next time he had a program with a question and answer period, he made a conscious effort not to mention God at all and when he asked for questions, the first person asked, 'Does this have anything to do with God?' I can certainly understand your frustration but if someone out there really wants to know God, it seems to me that they will somehow find themselves hearing about Knowledge. After all, God is simply a concept. 10 different people will have 10 different concepts of him. And it really opens up a can of worms to associate Knowledge and God. It can be very confrontational to many staunch religious people. But if you listen carefully, he does talk about God sometimes, just not in a fundamentalist way. Didn't I hear him say quite a lot in recent years that the immortal is within, the infinite is within, etc.? And what is the immortal, infinite one if not God? You know, someone once told me that he heard Maharaji say that he liked to give Knowledge to athiests because they have no concepts about God. They simply say, 'Prove it.' It reminded me of when I was in the Army and the drill seargent said that he liked to teach rifle marksmanship to those who had never fired a rifle. No bad habits to overcome, I guess. Well, I'm sorry Knowledge didn't work for you. I've met quite a few who were bored by it but I've also met quite a few who loved it. Knowledge is not mandatory, as I heard Maharaji say one time. But it sure allows me to center myself once in awhile and that's precious to me. Take good care.

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Date: Thurs, Jul 20, 2000 at 13:11:22 (GMT) From: JohnT Email: None To: Shroomananda Subject: ... you please nobody but yourself, Shroo. Message:

... because you are a deeply selfish person, almost solipsist. The nice warm fuzzy feelings you get from your chosen type of spiritual onanism (usually called 'head wanking') is all you care about. You have said so. Listen bud, why don't you go sit on your thumb while concentrating on pictures of some sexual fantasy figure? You could imagine your chosen idol somehow shares your exitement and feelings. You could have conversations in your head with them. You could imagine they are responsible for the nice feelings you obtain from fricative stimulation of whatever body parts. You could imagine those feelings are a gift to you from your chosen idol - that your fantasy figure must be some kind of god. And you could imagine your self-induced fantasy feelings correspond to something real in the world. To round things off you could imagine that if only everyone would do likewise there would be peace on earth! You are sad. Very, very, very sad. And deeply, offensively arrogant.

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Date: Thurs, Jul 20, 2000 at 22:20:54 (GMT) From: Hal Email: None To: JohnT Subject: JohnT that was so harsh to Shrew ! Message:

I agree with you entirely ! Good post , thank you Hal

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Date: Thurs, Jul 20, 2000 at 01:12:21 (GMT) From: Jerry Email: None To: Shroomananda Subject: I'm not buying it, Shroo Message:

Maharaji just played the God card for as long as it suited him. When it no longer did, he stopped. Who knows? When the wind changes direction, maybe he'll start playing it again. Maybe you can accept that kind of inconsistency, but I can't. I don't like people shucking and jiving me.

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Date: Wed, Jul 19, 2000 at 22:58:36 (GMT) From: Pauline Premie Email: None To: Jerry Subject: Certainly Not Message:

Well, first of all, Maharaji never claimed to be god. Lord of the Universe maybe, Superior Power in Person maybe, Perfect Master maybe, but not God. I guess maybe greater than god, but not god. Okay? Can you get that straight once and for all? I mean, the Elan Vital website says that 'Maharaji' literally means 'King of Kings.' I mean, it doesn't mean 'God of Gods' now does it. But I know for me, that just because some mortal human claimed to be God, it would have no effect on whether I would want to follow him as my Master. I mean why should it? Clearly, people make little mistakes like that all the time, and you wouldn't hold it against someone, just because they claimed to be god. What kind of a judgmental person are you? Are you the same awful, judgmental person who judges Maharaji because he is rich? What does that have to do with anything?

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Date: Wed, Jul 19, 2000 at 15:08:30 (GMT) From: Way Email: None To: Everyone Subject: Copy of 'Who is Guru Maharaj Ji?' needed Message:

Somebody I know wants a copy of this book. Are there any copies available? And what is that site called that offers such items for bidding?

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Date: Thurs, Jul 20, 2000 at 03:23:27 (GMT) From: la-ex Email: None To: Way Subject: while we're talking books,ever see this one? Message:

I remember back in the late 70's there was a book about m called 'the guru', I believe, written by a christian minister, detailing his trek to the millenium festival and some of the denver goings-on.It had m in crown at the millenium festival on the cover. Anyone seen this one?

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Date: Thurs, Jul 20, 2000 at 05:46:00 (GMT) From: Monmot Email: None To: la-ex Subject: 'The Guru'--Written by Bob Larson nt Message:

bb

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Date: Thurs, Jul 20, 2000 at 19:56:25 (GMT) From: la-ex Email: None To: Monmot Subject: 'The Guru'--Written by Bob Larson nt Message:

any idea where one might get a copy of it?

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Date: Fri, Jul 21, 2000 at 01:22:58 (GMT) From: Monmot Email: None To: la-ex Subject: Try.... Message:

La-Ex: Go to abebooks.com and do a search under 'Bob Larson.' Around selection #24 is The Guru. Have fun. He also has another book on cults. M

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Date: Wed, Jul 19, 2000 at 16:33:20 (GMT) From: Jean-Michel Email: None To: Way Subject: Help to scan and process WIGM. Service anybody? Message:

Would anybody help me do that? I own a copy of the book, but this is going to be a long and tedious to process all this. Would anybody owning a copy of the book do this ? Then I'll do the layout and have it online for everybody to read ....

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Date: Thurs, Jul 20, 2000 at 01:06:21 (GMT) From: Salam Email: salam_au@iprimus.com.au To: Jean-Michel Subject: I might be able to do it. First need to know what Message:

you planing to do, send me an e-mail, for info, cheers Salam

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Date: Thurs, Jul 20, 2000 at 00:39:00 (GMT) From: Oliver Email: None To: Jean-Michel Subject: Help to scan and process WIGM. Service anybody? Message:

I own a copy of the book that I am willing to donate to anyone who is willing and able to do the scanning.

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Date: Thurs, Jul 20, 2000 at 03:50:28 (GMT) From: Selene Email: None To: Oliver Subject: how many pages Oliver? email me Message:

not volunteering just yet but .... email me.

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Date: Wed, Jul 19, 2000 at 15:39:57 (GMT) From: Salam Email: None To: Way Subject: They were being auctioned at ebay few days ago Message:

nt

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Date: Wed, Jul 19, 2000 at 17:34:39 (GMT) From: Joe Email: None To: Salam Subject: I Bought It...... Message:

I just sent the money for it and I should have it in a few days. They occasionally come up for sale on eBay. I bid on it and was the successful bidder. I bought it from a woman in Maine who never was a premie.

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Date: Wed, Jul 19, 2000 at 15:56:17 (GMT) From: Way Email: None To: Salam Subject: Thanks, Salam, (nt) Message:

nt

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Date: Wed, Jul 19, 2000 at 17:48:33 (GMT) From: Joe Email: None To: Way Subject: Thanks, Salam, (nt) Message:

Also, Way, Powells Books in Portland, which you can access on line, had copies of the book in stock the last time I was in there (although that was a couple of years ago.) Also, Amazon.com has a service by which they will track down used copies of out-of-print books free of charge. Once they find it for you, you have the opportunity to buy it or not buy it at the price. I found one book on the Elan Vital cult this way -- I think it was called 'Sacred Journeys.' But Marianne had already loaned me a copy, so I ended up not buying it.

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Date: Thurs, Jul 20, 2000 at 01:00:45 (GMT) From: Monmot Email: None To: Joe Subject: Other Used Book Sites Message:

Aside from Powells.com, which is fabulous and fave of mine, you can also try: bibliofind.com, abebooks.com, and alibris.com. They all have a monster selection, and I've been able to get some very difficult to find books from these sites. You can probably get WIGM and Soul Rush from one of these sites. Monmot, the Book Hog

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Date: Thurs, Jul 20, 2000 at 21:02:42 (GMT) From: jondon Email: None To: Monmot Subject: Monmot thanks..... Message:

I found a copy for 3.00 bucks from one of those used book joints you posted. Will read it on vacation. Thanks again.

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Date: Wed, Jul 19, 2000 at 14:25:38 (GMT) From: Jim Email: None To: Everyone Subject: Glasnost in EV (Soon Perestroika?) Message:

There's a new face on Pravda and it's a smiley one. Much to my surprise, EV has taken the amazing step of actually posting real-life 'feedback' from real-life people. Mind you, I looked for my own 'feedback' amongst the following and didn't find it but I guess they're just putting this stuff up in batches. My 'feedback' will probably get posted tomorrow, I guess. Okay, maybe the next day. Or maybe the day after that .... We asked volunteers two questions; 'Why do you volunteer to support Elan Vital?' and 'What do you experience in being a volunteer?'. These are some of their answers: From Joseph Mitchell, Chicago 'Life, for me, is most richly experienced with a still mind and a full heart. Maharaji has made this dream a reality by showing me a way inside to a profoundly beautiful experience. I help Elan Vital support his efforts, happy knowing others will avail themselves of this precious opportunity.' 'What do I experience in being a volunteer?' My participation is both an expression of joy and a thank you for the gift I've received. It opens a door in my heart to receive even more. In my simple effort, I feel more deeply connected to the rhythm of my life, and in that experience: joy, clarity, stillness and especially, gratitude. From Sumitra R Nathoo , UK 'I volunteer to support Elan Vital because I feel to be part of this beautiful message that Maharaji takes round the world. Then many people can hear his message and enjoy the gift that knowledge brings into ones life.' 'I experience great joy and a beautiful feeling inside me when I know the effort I put in has enabled someone to listen to his message. I enjoy participating in making it possible in whatever way I can for someone to hear his message and appreciate this gift of life.' From Betty Dawkins, England 'The gift of knowledge has enhanced my life for the better in more ways than I could describe, that is why I am a volunteer. I want be a part of making that message available. Other people then, will have the opportunity of appreciating and enjoying their gift of life in this glorious unique way.' 'The experience of knowledge is wonderful, and I love to help when and where I can. Then I am able to express in action the great joy that I feel from practicing knowledge. I know my little bit of 'volunteering', is a part of what makes this message available globally. It is my pride and my privilege to be part of a growing team of volunteers that is truly international. It makes me feel GOOD!!' From Ms. Nicole Chou, Taiwan 'Why do I get involved? Because this is the way I can express my gratitude to my master.' 'My feeling is: Participation is very enjoyable, especially when I am introducing Maharaji and his message to my classmates. It is very inspiring. That joy can not be expressed by words. All I can say is: Maharaji, thank you!' From Tai-Ying Cui, Taiwan 'The reason that I participate in the work of Insight Foundation is that I want to keep in touch, I want to grow, to be able to develop and to continue learning. The result of being a volunteer? It is enjoyable. I have greater understanding about the gift of this knowledge.' 'I have felt appreciation for life continuously since I received the gift of Knowledge, and I hope that more people can not only appreciate life but also have more understanding that life is simple and enjoyable. Aside from all the work that I have to engage in, to be a volunteer is the greatest testimonial I can offer to others.' Tai-Ying, above, has to be one of my favorites. 'I have felt appreciation for life continuously....' is one of the funniest lines I've read in a long time. Yes, Tai-Ying, that your testimonial is reaching the hearts of millions worldwide. Too fucking funny! From Jui-Chin Lin, Taiwan 'I am very appreciative that I have the opportunity to participate as a volunteer.' 'I need to participate because I have the need to keep in touch with the master, knowledge and my heart. Currently I am involved in the proof reading of video translation. Other than practicing every day, participating gives me great enjoyment. In the work of service, through the language of the master, I have gained more clarity and understanding. In the work of a volunteer, I realize that to have a master is a great blessing to me, I am so fortunate.' I think Jui-Chin wins today's Buzzword contest. Wait 'til Janice and Yvette read this! From Vaughan Thomas, and Caroline Murray, New Zealand 'To express my heartfelt gratitude and to bring knowledge to as many people as possible.' 'Maharaji and knowledge mean more to me than anything else in my life. I volunteer to support E.V as a way of saying thank-you for the joy, love and serenity that is given to me through knowledge.' 'What do I experience in being a volunteer? I experience support and commitment and an inexhaustible enthusiasm to achieving the task at hand. I experience personal growth by being given tasks that I would not get to do anywhere else.' 'I feel immensely privileged to be involved as though I am being given everything I need so that I can experience the joy, and the grace of giving a little back.' From Gwenda Ellwood, Canada 'I volunteer to support Elan Vital because of just one thing: it is my opportunity to do something for the person who has done the most for me. For many years, through all kinds of lifestyle changes, Maharaji has remained as the one constant. He has showered me with kindness upon kindness, and I see Elan Vital as a vehicle for expressing my gratitude.' 'What do I experience in being a volunteer? I am re-charged. I feel a hand reaching into my life and lifting me out of the commonplace. Old habits are dashed to pieces, replaced with a continually unfolding sense of discovery and purpose. I am transformed.' From Louise Amm, Canada 'When I think of volunteering for any organization, I think of working for free. However this is not my experience with Elan Vital. When events through my life leave me feeling rather dead, then life somehow comes along and says, 'Here I am, come with me.' It is not work, it's love inviting me to live fully. Then that feeling of work disappears... There is the word free, but it is a free-dom. A filling up where there is learning and joy and gratitude all put together. Why do I volunteer to support Elan Vital? Because quite simply, it feels good.' 'What do I experience in being a volunteer? Volunteering in the way that is most comfortable for me, using the skills that I have, the intelligence I have, with the desire to help out my teacher - all I can say is, it is a tremendous gift. I feel like I am the taker, the one being focused on and all this love comes my way, the joy seeps into me and then the fun starts and the ride is amazing!' I remember Lousie from the old days. What a surprise to see that she's still in the cult. .... Okay, it's not a surprise. Whatever. Just trying to be nice.... From Barbara Maizie, USA 'Why do I volunteer with Elan Vital? The desire to volunteer comes from a place inside me that I don't completely understand, and can't fully express in words.' 'I volunteer because it feels so deeply right and good to use my mind and body, my time and energy to do something that may help Maharaji in his efforts to make knowledge available to the people of the world. Why does it feel so right and so good to help? Because I know how precious the gift of knowledge is. And because I know there is no one in the world doing anything more beneficial for all mankind than Maharaji. I know these things only because he taught me how to see, and my gratitude to him is never ending.' 'There is one other reason why I volunteer. I have seen many beautiful things in my lifetime, but I have never seen anything more beautiful than Maharaji's commitment to Knowledge. I have never seen anything more beautiful than Maharaji's commitment to fulfilling the wishes of his master. I live in awe of his commitment, and I am completely humbled whenever I remember that he is offering me the opportunity to make that commitment in my own life. Volunteering for Elan Vital is a way to take him up on his most generous invitation.' 'What do I experience as a volunteer for Elan Vital? As a volunteer for Elan Vital, I experience everything that a person normally experiences when people work together. Sometimes it is simple. Sometimes it is complex. Sometimes it flows beautifully. Sometimes it is frustrating. But no matter what the practical experience may be, there is always something else going on…the deep, deep joy of knowing that I am making an effort to help Maharaji accomplish what he wants to do in the world. And that joy always feels like heaven to me.' Stay away from complex, Barb. You don't want complex. From MSM, NY, USA 'I volunteer to support Elan Vital because what I have learned about life and myself through Maharaji's teachings has transformed my life. In fact, what Maharaji's teachings offer me continue to enhance and transform my life every day and very possibly in ways I am not aware of.' 'Volunteering is a way of giving something back as well as a way of being involved with an organization whose work I support wholeheartedly. I have come to know an incredible 'other world' as a result of what Maharaji has shown me. This world is one of - please excuse the cliché phrase - joy and fulfillment. That describes it in pretty exact terms. It's home, it's a place I desperately wanted to get back to my whole life before becoming involved with Elan Vital. So, by volunteering to support Elan Vital, I remain in close touch with that amazing world. I don't want to miss anything that happens in this world, and volunteering helps me to ensure that I won't. Because I volunteer to support Elan Vital, my life is incredibly full and truly magical.' 'What do I experience in being involved and participating? Gratitude. Gratitude for everything. Gratitude for knowing myself and knowing pure joy. And mostly gratitude for the person who taught me all of this.' Nice try with the anonymity, MSM, but you don't think for a moment that no one will recognize your distinctive expression just because you don't post your full name, do you? Who else but you, of all people, talks like this? From Leonor Sucre, Caracas, Venezuela 'Why do I volunteer to support Elan Vital? I don't know why I volunteer, but I do know what I feel when I volunteer. When I'm involved, it feels so good!' 'Because I live so far away and only get to see Maharaji about once a year, I feel the need to help in whatever tiny project I can. I live in Caracas, far away from the hall where the videos are shown, so ( because of the distance and the personal difficulties I might encounter because of going out alone at night) whenever I can, I get involved. I feel so elated because this gives me the feeling that I had a tiny but significant part in communicating his message.' '...When you help, or when you really want to help it is not an ordeal, but instead it is truly a privilege. I feel honored and half the time I can't believe that I am involved in something as magnificent as this wonderful world of knowledge, and that today in this year 2000, I could be so fortunate as to be a part of all of this!' From Chiu-Hua Huang, Taiwan 'Why be a volunteer?' Because there is so much to learn, there is so much to grow, there is so much to love.' 'Although I came across conflict, doubt, and frustration during my work as a volunteer, these feelings were replaced by synchronization, trust, inspiration and joy.' 'I am so willing to continue to contribute my small part, because I love all these.' Okay, ALL the Taiwanese premies sound like pentacostals. I still like Chi the best. From Dayachund Bundhoo, Mauritius 'Why do I volunteer to support Elan Vital? I find Elan Vital is the only place where my skills and time are regarded with genuine respect. I therefore do not have to 'act'.' 'What do I experience in being a volunteer? I am proud and thankful for having been accepted as a volunteer. This is more important than salary and I perform better than I do in my professional work.' Remind me NEVER to hire this guy. From Leonard Shapiro, South Africa 'Why do I volunteer to support Elan Vital? By supporting Elan Vital I am able to do something that is part of the world of knowledge. Where is the world of knowledge? It is inside me. What is in the world of knowledge? A deep feeling that is more beautiful and more complete than the most beautiful sunset.' 'By doing something from this feeling and directing it within Elan Vital, I can participate with a whole lot of other people who also want to express themselves from this very special feeling. The result of people participating together from this experience in a directed way is that there is a physical expression of this beautiful feeling.' 'By supporting Elan Vital, I am doing something to help Maharaji to get his message to people.' From Sourekha Bundhoo, Mauritius 'Why do I volunteer to support Elan Vital? It is a way to express my gratitude, without which I would feel empty inside.' 'What do I experience in being a volunteer? I feel very happy as a volunteer. I feel I am part of this world of truth. What an opportunity!!!, it doesn't come all the time. I am happy to have received this opportunity. Thank you Maharaji.' Very telling comment, Sourekha. You express your 'gratitude' in order to avoid feeling empty. That's like saying you keep thanking someone for food so you don't notice how hungry you are. I LOVE it! From Caroline Millard, Kenya 'Why do I volunteer to support Elan Vital? Because it gives me the most precious opportunity to live out my gratitude in action. It has become an essential part of my enjoyment. Without this expression I really think I would burst. I have been given a way to express and be refilled again and again in a million exquisite and unexpected ways.' 'What do I experience in being a volunteer? I experience the rare privilege of having something completely meaningful to me into which I can direct my passion and my life energy. Being motivated by gratitude is clean, an uncontaminated drive. Nothing in this world can touch it because it has its own rules entirely which have nothing to do with the rules of the world's activities. There's no explaining it. It just feels good, fundamentally true and essentially right. To somehow be useful, to help, to offer the best of myself to the most important person in my life. It seems to me that this is what a human heart, brain and body is designed for. By some great kindness this chance has been given to me.' I see that 'gratitude' is being raised to some high status as a sort of 'Prime Directive'. Well, better Gratitude than Clarity, that's all I can say. From Thomas Jones, Kenya I volunteer because I want to help my teacher. I also volunteer because I enjoy it and because it is an opportunity for me to express my appreciation for what I have been taught. 'What do I experience in being a volunteer? I experience many things when I come forward to volunteer. And not all of them are 'good.' I experience challenges, frustration and disappointments. But more than all of that, I experience appreciation. I see things I never would have seen. It's as if a window opens up and I get to see people in a way I have never seen them before. I get to see me in a way I have never seen me before too.' 'And it's not a static process like looking at a picture that stays the same every time you look at it. Every day, it's like another layer gets peeled away and I see more.' 'Seeing 'what is' is very simple and very wonderful. Volunteering helps me to see what is.'

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Date: Wed, Jul 19, 2000 at 15:07:43 (GMT) From: Jerry Email: None To: Jim Subject: Crap propaganda Message:

Of all the questions to ask, it would be about serving the master, or in today's terms, 'participation'. Now, every premie who isn't 'participating' can have a nice little twinge of guilt about it, and get on out there and get with the program. Mao Tse-tung couldn't have done it better.

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Date: Wed, Jul 19, 2000 at 06:46:59 (GMT) From: FA: URGENT!! Email: None To: Everyone Subject: Premie ZEN posted a nude picture Message:

On July 08, 200 Zen posted here a link to his site, supposedly an ex-premie site. Few minutes a go I went there to see what he had added and all is gone. In place of his site is a woman sorrounded by few men having sex. Can somebody post a link and change it afterwards? How did it happen? I appreciate if you remove it inmediatly...you'll see why. Please. block him too, I guess...LOL

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Date: Wed, Jul 19, 2000 at 10:36:29 (GMT) From: Zen Email: None To: FA: URGENT!! Subject: More lies Sb? Message:

Because you have caught me mania

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Date: Wed, Jul 19, 2000 at 13:48:55 (GMT) From: SB Email: None To: Zen Subject: FA, please read this post!! Message:

Zen removed the porno picture which had across the top, on large bold letters: Irene is the forum administrador of the ex-premies' spanish forum!!! You knew that and nobody else in the spanish forum, burro!! Are you blaming all on hackers now? The page with the XXX pic had a programm that did not allow me to save the page, obviously you got that one taking care of,but sent it Brian with a letter. You are scum!! Caca!! You'll hear from me soon.

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Date: Wed, Jul 19, 2000 at 16:00:58 (GMT) From: Forum Admin Email: None To: SB Subject: He's gone. (nt) Message:

zzz

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Date: Fri, Jul 21, 2000 at 07:37:06 (GMT) From: No he isn't!! Email: None To: Forum Admin Subject: Attention FA: He's gone. NO Message:

Zen is also Felix and he posted on the 20th. Did you block him?

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Date: Wed, Jul 19, 2000 at 13:33:48 (GMT) From: SB Email: None To: Zen Subject: Can you explained what happened? Message:

Why is it that your link is gone and instead you have a hardcore porno picture there with my name all over? How do you explain that all your site is gone? It doesn't exist anymore? Why Zen? How do you explain your IP number? How do you explain the emails. Youe are a very, very sick individual. Maybe you fixed it by now to vover your ass but I saved it, and also sent the page to Brian. Can you explain it? Did you get my email and that is why you are coming to cover something? Well, too late! Need translation?

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Date: Wed, Jul 19, 2000 at 06:48:47 (GMT) From: SB Email: None To: FA: URGENT!! Subject: More clear Message:

You will find the link here, on the innactive threds, Zen, July 08, 2000, 16:47.

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Date: Wed, Jul 19, 2000 at 13:51:23 (GMT) From: Jim Email: None To: SB Subject: What's the name of the post or thread? (nt) Message:

dddddd

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Date: Wed, Jul 19, 2000 at 14:17:18 (GMT) From: SB Email: None To: Jim Subject: Zen: The Knowledge Session in Spanish. Message:

The xxx picture is gone and his link is back after I sent him a message that he was going to be contacted by my lawyer. He had my name at top of the xxx picture. This is what premies want, confussion from the 'real issue', maharaji!!

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Date: Wed, Jul 19, 2000 at 17:31:55 (GMT) From: G Email: None To: SB Subject: Results of AltaVista search on 'zensolo' Message:

I did a AltaVista search on 'zensolo'. This is what I found: 1. alt.discuss.clubs.public.sex.vid-caps.zensolo (listed as a newsgroup at http://www.munitions.com/~advotes/ad-newsgroups) 2. SexoEspirituModeloMujer;-) Pulsa en la foto. Musica Cine Prensa Granhermano Actores. Loterias Juegos Modelos Mujer Erotismo. Libro de visitas. Tu nombre: Escribe tus... URL:club.telepolis.com/zensolo/ Last modified on: 30-May-2000 - 3K bytes - in Spanish (Win-1252) 3. Sexoespiritumodelo mujer Sobre sexo,mujeres, meditación,modelos.Krishnamurt .Maharaji... URL: www.lorenzo.es.fm/ Last modified on: 20-Jun-2000 - 796 bytes - in Spanish (Win-1252) I tried this URL, it could not be displayed. Regarding the the 'Sobre Maharaji' page: There is a link to http://club.telepolis.com/zensolo/index.html, which I tried but it did not display. The metadata keywords include: Maharaji; maharaji; Maharaj ji; maharaj ji; maharaji.org; Maharaji's message; Mahraji; guru maharaj; dettmers cult meditation premie elan vital divine mission dlm prempal rawat enjoyinglife personal, página, homepage, Maharaji, Now the picture doesn't show, but there is still a reference to 'SB', I won't repeat the sentence because I don't know what it means. You may want to notify telepolis.com and lorenzo.es.fm.

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Date: Thurs, Jul 20, 2000 at 03:23:19 (GMT) From: G Email: None To: all Subject: more on 'zensolo' Message:

There is a link called 'Ex-premies' at his site http://club.telepolis.com/zensolo/index.html that links to http://club.telepolis.com/zensolo/mj.htm. http://www.lorenzo.es.fm is an alias for http://club.telepolis.com/zensolo/ There is porn on this site. On his 'Busca en tu interior' web page, http://club.telepolis.com/zensolo/pr.htm there is a picture of Rawat, and he writes 'Gracias a mi Maestro'. There is a link to http://www.fundacionelanvital.es/. There is also an EV events page on his site: http://club.telepolis.com/zensolo/evn.htm Also this (Sugerencias y Opiniones) email link: Rebeca@mail.ono.es On his 'Sobre mi persona' page http://club.telepolis.com/zensolo/yo.htm he says 'Mis temas favoritos son: leer, cine, meditación, ...' I think his name is either Antonio Lorenzo or José Lorenzo. Here are other email addresses for him (or them?): fducados@hotmail.com antlorenzo@hotmail.com

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Date: Thurs, Jul 20, 2000 at 13:02:25 (GMT) From: SB Email: None To: G Subject: Clear...Thanks lots G Message:

I will email you went I get back home about this. I got to go now. I reallt want to fond out as much as possible and do something about it. It deserves attention?

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Date: Fri, Jul 21, 2000 at 03:44:54 (GMT) From: G Email: None To: SB Subject: It deserves attention. Message:

Yes, send me an email.

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Date: Wed, Jul 19, 2000 at 14:59:34 (GMT) From: Salam Email: None To: SB Subject: SB, someone is using my name in the Spanish Message:

forum, have you got an idea who it is. Good seeing you firing. That Zen is a cowerd pervert. Salam

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Date: Wed, Jul 19, 2000 at 14:10:38 (GMT) From: Felix the ... Email: Try club.telepolis.com/zensolo/mj.htm To: Jim Subject: What's the name of the post or thread? (nt) Message:

I don't know but that Irene sure looks like a very helpful girl .

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Date: Fri, Jul 21, 2000 at 06:57:41 (GMT) From: SB Email: None To: Felix the ... Subject: I don't look, I am!! You? ASS ZEN Message:

tan chiquito y estupido, lento, malicioso, premie.

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Date: Fri, Jul 21, 2000 at 06:54:57 (GMT) From: SB Email: None To: Felix the ... Subject: FA: Read this post: Felix is Zen!! Message:

please block him! Were we hacked or not FA? Thanks adorable person...who ever you are...taugh 'job:, isn't?? LOL.

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Date: Fri, Jul 21, 2000 at 16:06:25 (GMT) From: Felix the ... Email: None To: SB Subject: FA: Read this post: Felix is Zen!! Message:

Look SB you tryhard you seem to me to be a little bit of a case. I'm definitely not Zen but I do thank you for informing us of Zens very artistic link. I must say I enjoyed it, and hell for a minute I thought he'd got a polaroid of you and the family enjoying pre-dinner drinks!! Cheers my little Spanish Harlot

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Date: Sat, Jul 22, 2000 at 02:30:09 (GMT) From: SB Email: None To: Felix the ... Subject: FA: Read this post: MORE PROOF! Felix is Zen!! Message:

nt

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Date: Wed, Jul 19, 2000 at 05:48:39 (GMT) From: Know It All Email: None To: Everyone Subject: Shroomananda Message:

He's hijacked the forum.

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Date: Wed, Jul 19, 2000 at 06:02:05 (GMT) From: Shroomananda Email: None To: Know It All Subject: OK, Know It All, I'm going to bed. But I'll check Message:

in tomorrow after I practice. Good night!

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Date: Wed, Jul 19, 2000 at 06:05:37 (GMT) From: Selene Email: None To: Shroomananda Subject: stupid cop out go 'drag your blanket blindly' Message:

from the lyrics to my new favorite song How To Fight Lonliness by Wilco check it out you might learn something about yourself but no I doubt it.

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Date: Wed, Jul 19, 2000 at 23:44:03 (GMT) From: Shroomananda Email: None To: Selene Subject: stupid cop out go 'drag your blanket blindly' Message:

I like to practice on top of the blanket. Do you like to be on top or on the bottom? Just curious.

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Date: Thurs, Jul 20, 2000 at 03:28:46 (GMT) From: Selene Email: None To: Shroomananda Subject: that is one thing you will never know shroom Message:

sorry bout that.

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Date: Wed, Jul 19, 2000 at 05:58:29 (GMT) From: Selene Email: None To: Know It All Subject: like Ms ADAT said.... Message:

a theory of mine.... I've seen this over and over. haven't you Know It all?

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Date: Wed, Jul 19, 2000 at 05:04:38 (GMT) From: Jim Email: None To: Everyone Subject: Get with the program, dude Message:

Below is some puffy, nostalgic shmaltz from ELK, posted in commemoration of Maharaji's big 29th anniversary in America. Maharaji? You know, the guy who recently explained on his own web site that 'a few others saw me as a leader, and I didn't want to be one and I am not one.' That guy: All that counts is Knowledge Reflections by Michael Borden Once upon a time (29 years ago, 17 July to be precise) a young boy boarded an airplane in London thereby changing the trajectories of hundreds of thousands of lives around the world. And while 29 is hardly the most glamorous of anniversaries, the date of Maharaji's arrival in the US. still resonates as the starting point of a long and wondrous journey of 'Follow the leader' that remains magically captivating to this day. At whatever point you managed to join this conga line of joy and discovery that danced its way from continent to continent, heart to heart, you were awarded a ticket to the world's largest party where you're welcome to stay as long as you want. What Maharaji kindly refers to as the enthusiasm of the Seventies was in ample supply that day in July as a handful of his earliest Western followers made their way to LAX. The subsequent events are now legendary: Alta Loma Terrace, Maharaji and roomful of hippies staring at one another - 'first contact' between strange beings from two different worlds. Over the years the props have changed as Maharaji jettisoned piece after piece of cultural baggage obscuring the clarity and simplicity of his message. Mahatmas became initiators who then became instructors. The names of the techniques, once floridly religious, evolved into simple ordinal numbers. Meditation became practice in order to bypass confusion, and anyway, besides, everyone knows that practice makes perfect. It's hard not to feel a little nostalgia for some of the old ways; they're indelibly linked with our own youth and that heady time of first falling in love. But this has always been his game and his alone and as far as I'm concerned he can define it (or undefine it) any way he chooses in the service of making Knowledge accessible to everyone, everywhere. For, in the end, just as it was 29 years ago, it's still only about the experience inside. And that experience is unchangeable. I've come to view much of what Maharaji has discarded over the years - the rites, the rituals the Hindi names - as comfortable leaning posts on which I could rest, look around and see how one is supposed to relate to the master. But that's a lazy way out; Maharaji's standards are higher than that. In disposing of the cultural underpinnings of Knowledge he effectively demands that I rely on nothing else but Knowledge itself; that I define my own relationship with him independent of everyone and everything else. The experience of Knowledge transcends any fantasy I may have about it and he wants me to experience it purely. That's fine with me. Over the years nothing has more consistently made me as happy as practicing Knowledge. No one has made me feel the same as he does. I love him and that hasn't changed a bit.. So, happy 29th. And thank you for the opportunity to reflect and appreciate. My emphasis, his bullshit.

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Date: Wed, Jul 19, 2000 at 05:29:46 (GMT) From: Salam Email: None To: Jim Subject: Get with the program, dude Message:

Are they panning to make it a public holiday?

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Date: Wed, Jul 19, 2000 at 04:43:05 (GMT) From: Jim Email: None To: Everyone Subject: *Mega-question* for Shroomananda Message:

I've read your posts and, like all the other exes here, think you're full of shit. But that's certainly no surprise. It's really not even worth mentioning, is it? 'Oh Jim Heller [or any other ex] thinks I'm stupid' or whatever. Big fucking deal, right? But this is what interests me. If you honestly believe that your beliefs are reasonable, if you honestly think that your ideas about Maharaji's history are defensible, if you honestly think that .... well, that you're thinking clearly about all this, do you believe anyone outside EV would agree? See, it's almost painfully obvious to me and, I assume, all the other exes here, that your comments are whack. But it's just as obvious that it's impossible to reason with you. So, at the end of the day, all that's left is appealing to outsiders. Are you game? Are you willing to find some outside arbitrer to test your ideas? To me that would be a lot more interesting than watching myself and other exes turn blue trying to reason with you. What do you say?

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Date: Wed, Jul 19, 2000 at 05:05:56 (GMT) From: Salam Email: None To: Shroomanad Subject: Shroomanad is either a total idiot, or is afraid Message:

to abmit it. I can not belive that you are such a stunch believer of Rawat. You obviously have a jugment problem. You know, children under age can not be responsible for there action because they can not tell right from wroung, are you still a baby that you do not distinguish the truth from a lie, what does it take to discover a lier. Psycologically you are defenitly unstable, your denial of the fact is due to your fear of letting go of maharaji. You know, your are lucky to have this forum, otherwise who would you talk to. To many of us, we had to make a 'conscious' decision to part away from maharaji, the majority did that on their own, no premies or internet to tell. But here you, grovling in your belief that you know it all. I do not belive a spec of what you say or what you qoute, it is only a facad for you to hide your questioning. It does not need a genious to know that EV was setup by maharaji for maharaji, it is his PR, and a vechile to propagate knowledge. If EV denies anything or say anything it is becuase gm says so. EV does not care about you or prmies, their only interest is that you attend events and purchase maharaji's related material so they can beef up thier revenious. How they do it is irrelevant. But you are a person made of blood and bone, you hurt and you laugh, and do million of other things, so stop being the parrot that you are. Offcourse it is hard to admmitt to something, specially when it is as important as knowledge, and when it has been programmed in your mind for so long, because you have been made to belive that they are part of you, you need them and life does not exist without them to say that you have been brainwashed certainly does not add up in your head. This only show how undeveloped and imature premies are as a human being, it is exactly what gm and EV want, keep a lid on you, it is to their advantage. This is what everyone is trying to tell you, each in his/her own way. As you can appreciate, premies, (or may I generlize, members of religous movements) are interesting, because they find it hard to finish a sentence without adding something about gm, bliss, god, knowledge...etc. or something like, it happened because of gm.This is an affirmation that gm is everywhere, he is above the laws of nature. Only gods can do that, so stop denying this. The difference between you and the exes or persons with knowledge as you like to call them, is that they are all sitting in the light, they do not hide, it is you that is beating around the bushes. Salam

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Date: Wed, Jul 19, 2000 at 05:45:40 (GMT) From: SB Email: None To: Salam Subject: What is abmit? Thanks. (nt) Message:

nt

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Date: Wed, Jul 19, 2000 at 05:11:40 (GMT) From: Shroomananda Email: None To: Salam Subject: Salam is not an idiot, is he? Just asking. NT Message:

NT

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Date: Wed, Jul 19, 2000 at 05:46:40 (GMT) From: SB Email: None To: Shroomananda Subject: He is fine, you are, aren't you? NT Message:

nt

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Date: Wed, Jul 19, 2000 at 05:38:02 (GMT) From: Ms. ADAT Email: None To: Shroomananda Subject: I am always interested when two people show up Message:

at the same time. Just weird I guess. And fight with each other on forum. Call it a theory of mine. synchronicity?

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Date: Wed, Jul 19, 2000 at 05:37:01 (GMT) From: Salam Email: None To: Shroomananda Subject: You must be brain dead Message:

if this is all what you can say. I tried to explain something to you, but obviously you do not get it or do you?

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Date: Wed, Jul 19, 2000 at 05:52:09 (GMT) From: SB Email: None To: Salam Subject: Save your energy: He's far Gone. Message:

Maybe he decides to come back someday. What gallaxy did he said he lives at? Lardymind?

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Date: Wed, Jul 19, 2000 at 05:40:28 (GMT) From: Shroomananda Email: None To: Salam Subject: Trying to explain something to someone by first Message:

calling them a total idiot or a coward is not going to make them amenable to your point of view. Do I make myself clear?

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Date: Wed, Jul 19, 2000 at 06:36:11 (GMT) From: Salam Email: None To: Shroomananda Subject: I f you notice the statment above Message:

Ananda, I do not remember saying your were a total idiot. If you have bothered to read what I said, and you may if you wish, you will notice that I have not treated you like a maggot, instead all I did is say the obvious. You are obviously feeling offended, but that is not the issue, it is rather the fact that Lardy is dishonest in his relationship with you, and as I said somewhere else, he does not know the meaning of the word accountable, simply because he does not think it applies to him, which only tell me that he thinks himself superior to the human race. Everyone is accountable to their action, does not matter who they are. Also I do not feel the urge to be another jesus, and die for the truth, history has a way of judging people, if it is not going to happen today, it will happen tomorrow. I appreciate how deligent you are in being here, except I do not compromise(I remember someone saying that) with what I found and that is : maharaji is not relevent in this world and knowledge is avaliable from other sources. I know he is a fraud, to you it is hard to see that, it is a choice that we make. Stick around, and as they say, may the force be with you Salam

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Date: Wed, Jul 19, 2000 at 05:55:11 (GMT) From: SB Email: None To: Shroomananda Subject: SISSY!! = EXTRA POOR EXCUSE!! Message:

For your information all the premies here use that one to avoid answering logical arguments. And I know why. I wrote it above!!

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Date: Wed, Jul 19, 2000 at 05:01:53 (GMT) From: Shroomananda Email: None To: Jim Subject: Head on, Jim! But keep in mind that my only Message:

position here is to try to understand what's really going on underneath the surface. I'm really not into arguing or debating. My only concern is why you all are so bitter and why you are trying to keep others from checking Maharaji's Knowledge out. I do respect anyone who has investigated Knowledge and then decides it's not for them. You guys should be commended for that. Most worldly people won't even go that far. They immediately label it as 'cult' and then move on. Thank God for those who are so thirsty for that beauty inside that nothing will dissuade them from checking it out. Those are the real truth seekers. But if you can design a real test, bring it on. A worldly person will agree with you guys and a devotee will agree with Maharaji. And may the heart be the victor!

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Date: Wed, Jul 19, 2000 at 14:39:06 (GMT) From: Hal Email: None To: Shroomananda Subject: We're not all bitter here Shroo Message:

A common misconception and easy to make when one initially reads the forum. Sure there is sometimes a bitterness expressed and that's fine with most people here I think. Sometimes anger does surface towards Maha and even towards rigid minded premies. I personally do not feel bitter. I would describe my feelings as astonishment at having been tricked for so many years by the empty promises made to me by Maha. I come onto this site to read and post primarily because I find it enjoyable and relaxing. I don't get the feeling that there are loads of fuming, irate ex premies sitting at their PC's. I have come to enjoy the cybermeetings with other people, the humour, intelligence and wit of many here. We actually have an enjoyable time discussing and communicating you know. However I can see how from a premie perspective it could seem otherwise. Hal

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Date: Wed, Jul 19, 2000 at 12:45:22 (GMT) From: A.P. Email: None To: Shroomananda Subject: The Knowledge Message:

You refer to the knowledge as Maharaji's. Are you aware that these techniques do not belong to Maharaji. He stole them. Then he proceeded to steal from you. As I see it he is a thief. You wrote: A worldly person will agree with ex-premies and a devotee will agree with M. I suppose this comment is true because of all the brainwashing M has performed on you and the other devotees. I watched 1 M video and knew he was a fraud. thank goodness!!! I would much rather be a worldly person than one who follows the teachings of a thief and a liar. No matter what kind of meditation experience I was having. Why should you limit yourself anyway? There are hundreds of other meditation techniques that work. Does M have any kind of pattent or copyright on his so called knowledge? Of course not, you can't get pattents or copyrights on stolen material. The techniques do not belong to M!!!! Being worldly is my choice being a follower is your choice. I highly reccommend You try thinking for yourself sometime, I think you will like it. But until than, keep on giving your heart to the Lord. As long as there are premies like you, he has a pretty good gig. I'm sure he appreceiates your support. I also have a question for you. Why don't premies call themselves premies? You all refer to each other as having Kknowledge. Is premie a bad word? Or does it make you feel smart saying you have knowledge? Just asking? A.P.

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Date: Wed, Jul 19, 2000 at 06:14:02 (GMT) From: SBlunt Email: None To: Shroomananda Subject: I tell you why now you ask those questions Message:

Because you pretend to be brain dead now!! People were talking and explaining for hours and you haven't understood yet?? You are so, so stupid. Take it how you want, neverthelees you are one!! You talk like one!! Are we exes really bitter or is it that exes call your shitty conceptual world where you live in what it's and you don't like it? What did you think you were going to encounter here? Poems to Lardy? Naive, perhaps? All you have is a concept given to you by the courtesy of de cult maharaji created in the 70s: It became your life. Good. Goodbye. WE WERE RIGHT WHAT YOU ARE AND DIDN'T LIKE IT. Get it? Adios. Call it what you want. Dislike us, this is not the right place for you. If you stay you will encounter more of the same so why not leave now? You are getting to be very boring to see all over. I saw many like you come and display their maturity and intellectual capacity: Keep yours up. You represent the cult mind very, very well. In fact, you are one of the best I'd have seen! Congratulations!! Thanks for leaving your words in the archives. Thanks lots!! And before you acusse others of doing something it can make you look a little smarter if you avoid doing the same. I read what you told some exes! How dare you come to our site and express like that! Are you desoriented, confused? Can we help you? Get sincere. We heard all the other crap already!

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Date: Wed, Jul 19, 2000 at 05:37:21 (GMT) From: Jim Email: None To: Shroomananda Subject: Okay, let's pursue this Message:

A worldly person will agree with you guys and a devotee will agree with Maharaji. And may the heart be the victor! Okay, let's get going. I say that you're being patently unreasonable when you say things like: What did he lie about? Even if he said that he was the authorized representative of God on the planet, how are you going to prove that's a lie? Now I think this is an easy claim of yours that we can test outside our group of interested people. Let's start with EV's latest FAQ which addresses the question head-on: Did Maharaji ever say he was God? No, Maharaji never at any time claimed to be God. This, of course, flies in the face of Maharaji's own words such as: 'Who is Guru? The highest manifestation of God is Guru. So when Guru is here, God is here, to whom will you give your devotion? Guru Maharaj Ji knows all. Guru Maharaji is Brahma (creator). Guru Maharaji is Vishnu (Operator). Guru Maharjai is Shiva (Destroyer of illusion and ego). And above all, Guru Mahraji is the Supremest Lord in person before us. I have come so powerful. I have come for the world. Whenever the great come,the worldly oppose them. Again I have come and you are not listening. Every ear should hear that the saviour of humanity has come. There should be no chance for anyone to say that they haven't heard of Guru Maharaj Ji. Those who have come to me are already saved. Now its your duty to save others. Shout it on the streets. Why be shy? When human beings forget the religion of humanity, the Supreme Lord incarnates. He takes a body and comes on this earth ...... When human beings forget this one way, then our Lord, who is the Lord of the whole universe, comes in human body to give us practical Knowlege, ....But, most ironically, we don't appreciate the Lord when He comes in His human body on this earth. Similarly, a Satguru, a Perfect Master, a Supreme Lord who is existing in the present time, can give you the practical Knowledge of the real thing... So God Himself comes to give practical Knowledge of His divinity, of His inner self, which is self-effulgent light, eternal light, all-pervading light. And the Supreme Master, the Satguru, gives practical Knowledge of that light, irrespective of caste, creed, color, religion or sex, to those human individuals who bow before him with reverence, with love and with faith.' (Various excerpts - 'Who Is Guru Maharaj Ji?') Okay, two points: you think it doesn't matter if Maharaji lied about this and you also think it can't be proven that he did in any event. I say that both sentiments are absurd. That no reasonable person could ever deny that Maharaji claimed to be God on any fair reading of this one little statement. That's one thing. And that it doesn't matter even if he DID lie. That's another. So what do you say that we try to find someone to judge this position of yours?

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Date: Wed, Jul 19, 2000 at 05:54:29 (GMT) From: Shroomananda Email: None To: Jim Subject: Whoa, Nellie! What does that have to do with Message:

anything? If someone hears that Maharaji called himself God and then later renounced that claim, then decides that Maharaji is a liar and his free gift of Knowledge is not worth investigating because of that, then is that person an unbiased person or not? A person should receive Knowledge and then decide whether the gift is true for him or her at that point. If Maharaji called himself God in the first place, how do you suppose people decided whether he was God or not? Through his Knowledge. And He said that was the true test many times. Would you respect someone who said that they were looking for self-knowledge and then decided not to investigate Maharaji's gift simply on the basis that at one time He claimed to be God and then another time claimed he never claimed to be God? I sure wouldn't. Many times Maharaji said that his Knowledge was God. A true seeker would test that and then decide.

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Date: Thurs, Jul 20, 2000 at 03:52:18 (GMT) From: VP Email: None To: Shroomananda Subject: But it doesn't really work that way, does it? Message:

You say that the person can decide to accept the free gift of knowledge and then test it for himself and decide whether Maharaji is real or not. But you basically have to commit yourself to Maharaji and accept him BEFORE you can receive knowledge. Right? In fact, you have to ASK (meaning literally beg) for knowledge and you have to be judged 'sincere' (and a whole host of other subjective characteristics) in order to get knowledge. By the time they have worn you down, you will say anything to get what they have--to prove yourself sincere, worthy, devoted.

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Date: Wed, Jul 19, 2000 at 13:31:25 (GMT) From: Jim Email: None To: Shroomananda Subject: Like watching the wicked witch of the east melt Message:

Very, very funny, Shroomananda. Very, very funny.

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Date: Wed, Jul 19, 2000 at 13:59:22 (GMT) From: Jim Email: None To: Jim Subject: BTW, I'd kick you off the page at this point Message:

If it were up to me, Shroom, I'd boot you out of here now. By demonstrating so handily your unwillingness to subject your arguments -- any of them -- to scrutiny, you've proven, to me at least, that you're arguing in bad faith. It's not a matter of your fucking 'experience'. I'm not the least bit interested in the only kind of 'reality check' premies can live with (i.e. join the cult and see if you like it). I'm interested in how you reason to begin with. It matters not whether one has ever heard of this silly guru, it's still entirely possible to determine whether or not his words then and now are consistent. You made a two-part claim about them that you've now shown that even you don't believe in. In other words, you don't believe your own bullshit. Translation? You're insincere. As a result, if I were in charge, I'd kick you out in a moment and never think twice about it. Like getting rid of trash, really.

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Date: Wed, Jul 19, 2000 at 15:21:28 (GMT) From: P-man Email: None To: Jim Subject: BTW, I'd kick you off the page at this point Message:

I agree with this, Jim. When this guy, Shroom', is faced with the truth he buries his head in the sand. Put him out with the trash.

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Date: Wed, Jul 19, 2000 at 10:45:46 (GMT) From: JtF Email: None To: Shroomananda Subject: Take the poison then decide if it's good?(NT) Message:

nonsense!

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Date: Wed, Jul 19, 2000 at 06:23:09 (GMT) From: Wise one Email: None To: Shroomananda Subject: BUT Knowledge IS NOT GOD Message:

Many times Maharaji said that his Knowledge was God. But is it or he just says it's? K is nothing but some old yoga techniques. What you and Lardy believe is something else. Quit talking. Do yourself a favor. Why don't go around and read; the archives have lots of good, good light on the 'subject'. Many of your questions are going to get answers. Have a good night.

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Date: Wed, Jul 19, 2000 at 02:20:04 (GMT) From: Shintaro Email: None To: Everyone Subject: No way Jose Message:

Regarding Way's post which includes this quote- 'People who have received Knowledge, my blessings are always with them and they should carry on and build an ashram here where many people can come and receive Knowledge. I am working for that, I am working very fast and I need your constant cooperation. God is cooperating with me from that side but you must cooperate with me from this side, that's why you are made devotees, that's why you are made disciples. What I want is to bring forth the Kingdom of Heaven quickly. And I can bring it forth by this grace.' Shintaro says= Children ask for their parent's blessings. And the Oscars are full of people thanking God for his,her,its co-operation. Neither position is exclusive, netiher suggests a pre- eminent divine status. I am divine, I am a teacher, I am a manisfestation of God, I have come on this planet to help bring peace on earth and God is co-operating with me. All the above statements are true of me and true of everyone. People who do not feel that they are a manifestation of a higher power are sadly deluded. They believe their superiority to anyone or thing should produce happiness. But the opposite occurs,it creates an inferiority complex . They have no conection with the divine and that creates bitterness and confusion. Shintaro

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