Jerry -:- Fuck this culture shit -:- Tues, Jul 25, 2000 at 01:20:25 (GMT)

__ Joe -:- Fuck this culture shit -:- Tues, Jul 25, 2000 at 22:50:38 (GMT)

__ Get the Facts -:- this culture is changing rapidly -:- Tues, Jul 25, 2000 at 01:40:37 (GMT)

__ __ AJW -:- No Mahatmas -:- Wed, Jul 26, 2000 at 12:05:15 (GMT)

__ __ __ FA -:- One name per poster -:- Wed, Jul 26, 2000 at 12:25:11 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ ExPAM -:- Jagdeo's Whereabouts -:- Wed, Jul 26, 2000 at 19:37:01 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ AJW -:- Question -:- Wed, Jul 26, 2000 at 14:41:50 (GMT)

__ __ Jerry -:- Again, you don't get it -:- Tues, Jul 25, 2000 at 02:46:57 (GMT)

__ __ __ Jerry -:- Not only that -:- Tues, Jul 25, 2000 at 14:44:34 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ cq -:- and not only this -:- Tues, Jul 25, 2000 at 19:16:50 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ JohnT -:- No balls Rawat -:- Tues, Jul 25, 2000 at 15:29:43 (GMT)

__ __ Salam -:- Has gm held a meeting in India lately, if so -:- Tues, Jul 25, 2000 at 02:28:11 (GMT)

__ __ __ Jean-Michel -:- Did you read the Recent Satsang in India section -:- Tues, Jul 25, 2000 at 04:13:14 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ This is not recent -:- Get with the Programme Mr 1987 Hasbeen -:- Tues, Jul 25, 2000 at 08:40:17 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ Jean-Michel -:- Would you please send me the transcripts ? -:- Tues, Jul 25, 2000 at 13:53:28 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ It's very simple -:- They are available for anyone to see. -:- Wed, Jul 26, 2000 at 08:22:11 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Jean-Michel -:- You mean an edited video? or the real thing? -:- Wed, Jul 26, 2000 at 08:49:53 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ cq -:- Touche! (nt) -:- Tues, Jul 25, 2000 at 18:51:16 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ Salam -:- Thanks JM, you do no happen to know any -:- Tues, Jul 25, 2000 at 05:02:38 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ Jean-Michel -:- Thanks JM, you do no happen to know any -:- Tues, Jul 25, 2000 at 08:13:27 (GMT)

__ __ __ SB -:- I have few not too old -:- Tues, Jul 25, 2000 at 03:28:21 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ Salam -:- I have few not too old -:- Tues, Jul 25, 2000 at 04:05:02 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ SB -:- I have few not too old -:- Tues, Jul 25, 2000 at 22:05:31 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ Selene -:- hey SB I just wrote you email -:- Wed, Jul 26, 2000 at 00:27:16 (GMT)

Lurkex -:- Nick Danger are you there? -:- Tues, Jul 25, 2000 at 01:16:13 (GMT)

__ Joe -:- Is she still in a mental institution? -:- Tues, Jul 25, 2000 at 22:09:37 (GMT)

__ V. Interested -:- M's affair with a model -:- Tues, Jul 25, 2000 at 02:58:02 (GMT)

__ __ Sir Dave -:- M's affair with a model -:- Tues, Jul 25, 2000 at 10:03:06 (GMT)

Joe -:- Maharaji the Divine Pilot -:- Mon, Jul 24, 2000 at 20:42:02 (GMT)

__ TD -:- The youngest qualified commercial pilot in the US? -:- Tues, Jul 25, 2000 at 06:52:02 (GMT)

__ __ Joe -:- Not Likely -:- Tues, Jul 25, 2000 at 16:45:40 (GMT)

__ __ Nigel -:- The youngest qualified commercial pilot in the US? -:- Tues, Jul 25, 2000 at 12:16:56 (GMT)

__ ~SB~ -:- Elan Vital forgot our picture of DOUBLE DARSHAN -:- Tues, Jul 25, 2000 at 00:47:20 (GMT)

__ __ Sir Dave -:- Also his expertise at driving chariots -:- Tues, Jul 25, 2000 at 01:17:50 (GMT)

__ __ __ cq -:- Hah!that motorised armchair. Was is a charity gig? -:- Tues, Jul 25, 2000 at 18:37:58 (GMT)

__ __ __ Joe -:- The Guy to the Left of M is Michael Donner -:- Tues, Jul 25, 2000 at 13:55:24 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ Sir Dave -:- The Guy to the Left of M is Michael Donner -:- Tues, Jul 25, 2000 at 16:31:57 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ Jim -:- Donner's info -:- Tues, Jul 25, 2000 at 23:10:04 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ Joe -:- Jim? -:- Tues, Jul 25, 2000 at 16:47:34 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ Joe -:- Michael Donner -- correction -:- Tues, Jul 25, 2000 at 14:01:12 (GMT)

__ __ __ ~sb~ -:- Also his expertise at driving chariots -:- Tues, Jul 25, 2000 at 01:38:18 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ Selene -:- at least you didn't marry him. -:- Tues, Jul 25, 2000 at 03:28:51 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ ~SB~ -:- at least you didn't marry him. -:- Tues, Jul 25, 2000 at 04:20:33 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ oops ps from Selene -:- oops I think that last sentence -:- Tues, Jul 25, 2000 at 03:31:24 (GMT)

__ Jerry -:- Way to go, Joe -:- Tues, Jul 25, 2000 at 00:39:17 (GMT)

__ __ Joe -:- Thanks, Jerry -:- Tues, Jul 25, 2000 at 20:22:05 (GMT)

__ hamzen -:- But is he any good in bed? -:- Mon, Jul 24, 2000 at 22:15:44 (GMT)

__ __ Joe -:- But is he any good in bed? -:- Mon, Jul 24, 2000 at 22:38:28 (GMT)

__ __ __ cq -:- 'who will be feeding all the people?' -:- Tues, Jul 25, 2000 at 18:49:50 (GMT)

__ __ __ V. Interested -:- Joe, is that really true? -:- Tues, Jul 25, 2000 at 03:02:47 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ Joe -:- Joe, is that really true? -:- Tues, Jul 25, 2000 at 13:48:54 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ Jim -:- Why you up so early? -:- Tues, Jul 25, 2000 at 14:03:36 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ Joe -:- Why you up so early? -:- Tues, Jul 25, 2000 at 14:07:13 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Jim -:- Joe, that puts me in a very difficult spot -:- Tues, Jul 25, 2000 at 14:18:24 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Jim -:- OK, that was a joke .............................. -:- Tues, Jul 25, 2000 at 14:57:51 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ Jean-Michel -:- Blue Dunhills also forgotten in that FAQ -:- Tues, Jul 25, 2000 at 04:11:33 (GMT)

__ __ Selene -:- irreverence rules. thanks ham. -:- Mon, Jul 24, 2000 at 22:22:44 (GMT)

__ Selene -:- so true -:- Mon, Jul 24, 2000 at 20:50:19 (GMT)

__ __ Joe -:- so true -:- Mon, Jul 24, 2000 at 21:29:03 (GMT)

For JM -:- PRIME R and N41PR -:- Mon, Jul 24, 2000 at 19:02:29 (GMT)

__ Jean-Michel -:- PRIME R and N41PR: owned by whom? -:- Mon, Jul 24, 2000 at 20:57:13 (GMT)

__ __ Jean-Michel -:- Maybe I'm wrong ! -:- Mon, Jul 24, 2000 at 21:00:41 (GMT)

__ __ __ Joe -:- Maybe You're Not -:- Mon, Jul 24, 2000 at 21:21:03 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ cq -:- Maybe You're Not -:- Tues, Jul 25, 2000 at 18:18:54 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ Joe -:- My Evaluation.. -:- Tues, Jul 25, 2000 at 20:05:44 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ G -:- map of streets around 'the residence' -:- Wed, Jul 26, 2000 at 01:11:15 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ G -:- the other address -:- Wed, Jul 26, 2000 at 02:35:09 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Joe -:- Thanks.... -:- Wed, Jul 26, 2000 at 18:09:14 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ Joe -:- Clarification -:- Tues, Jul 25, 2000 at 20:11:35 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ SB -:- I thought I gave money to maharaji!! -:- Thurs, Jul 27, 2000 at 06:47:49 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ cq -:- IMPORTANT - SB and other donators please read this -:- Thurs, Jul 27, 2000 at 19:26:05 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Joe -:- Also -:- Tues, Jul 25, 2000 at 20:27:59 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Joe -:- OOOps -:- Tues, Jul 25, 2000 at 20:30:20 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ cq -:- we're getting there -:- Wed, Jul 26, 2000 at 17:48:17 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Joe -:- Correct -:- Wed, Jul 26, 2000 at 18:14:15 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ SB -:- Correct, but about the incosistencies such as -:- Thurs, Jul 27, 2000 at 13:29:27 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Joe -:- Correct, but about the incosistencies such as -:- Thurs, Jul 27, 2000 at 16:45:58 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ cq -:- How CAN Elan Vital be a 'CHURCH'??? -:- Wed, Jul 26, 2000 at 18:33:19 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ bill -:- the Irs WOULD be interested in these claims that -:- Thurs, Jul 27, 2000 at 03:06:04 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Look in www.guidestar.org -:- How CAN Elan Vital be a 'CHURCH'??? -:- Wed, Jul 26, 2000 at 20:29:23 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Joe -:- Thanks (nt) -:- Wed, Jul 26, 2000 at 21:32:28 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Joe -:- The Registry of Charitable Trusts - Joey? -:- Wed, Jul 26, 2000 at 18:45:46 (GMT)

__ Joe -:- Is this the Gulstream IV 'private corporation?' -:- Mon, Jul 24, 2000 at 19:53:03 (GMT)

__ __ V. Interested -:- Were you one of the jet set? -:- Tues, Jul 25, 2000 at 03:10:07 (GMT)

__ __ __ Joe -:- Definitely Not..... -:- Tues, Jul 25, 2000 at 16:23:27 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ Selene -:- the seating game -:- Tues, Jul 25, 2000 at 18:35:09 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ Joe -:- A black market in seats? -:- Tues, Jul 25, 2000 at 20:07:27 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ Selene -:- Pretty hilarious isn't it? -:- Tues, Jul 25, 2000 at 23:58:18 (GMT)

__ __ __ Selene -:- look at the journey section -:- Tues, Jul 25, 2000 at 03:45:18 (GMT)

__ __ hamzen -:- If they became exes, then it would be theirs? (nt) -:- Mon, Jul 24, 2000 at 22:20:28 (GMT)

__ __ __ Joe -:- Not Likely -:- Mon, Jul 24, 2000 at 22:25:29 (GMT)

__ __ aziz -:- Delaski -:- Mon, Jul 24, 2000 at 21:35:19 (GMT)

__ __ Know It All -:- I wonder, I wa wa. wa...waaa... wonder.... -:- Mon, Jul 24, 2000 at 20:12:08 (GMT)

__ __ __ Smuggling -:- I wonder, I wa wa. wa...waaa... wonder.... (nt) -:- Tues, Jul 25, 2000 at 01:05:19 (GMT)

Joe -:- The Holy Family Rift -- Maharaji's Health -:- Mon, Jul 24, 2000 at 18:08:54 (GMT)

__ slackandsteel -:- The Holy Family Rift -- Maharaji's Health -:- Tues, Jul 25, 2000 at 23:49:33 (GMT)

__ __ Sucksganga -:- but you have to trust you heart -:- Wed, Jul 26, 2000 at 15:31:39 (GMT)

__ __ __ SB -:- I love my perennials too. (nt) -:- Thurs, Jul 27, 2000 at 13:35:37 (GMT)

__ Selene -:- Who can imagine what goes on in Marolyn's mind -:- Mon, Jul 24, 2000 at 18:18:47 (GMT)

__ __ Joe -:- Maharaji Drinking Heavy...... -:- Mon, Jul 24, 2000 at 18:32:57 (GMT)

__ __ __ Ben Lurking -:- Maharaji Drinking Heavy...... -:- Tues, Jul 25, 2000 at 03:54:06 (GMT)

__ __ __ RobertB -:- Amherst drinking..... -:- Mon, Jul 24, 2000 at 20:02:30 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ Been through this -:- 'You can't fuck a Lambourgini' GM -1974? Nt -:- Tues, Jul 25, 2000 at 02:15:01 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ Jethro -:- I heard it that he was given -:- Tues, Jul 25, 2000 at 08:18:40 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ richard petty -:- I heard it that he was given/not true! -:- Tues, Jul 25, 2000 at 10:00:26 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Ben Lurking -:- I heard it that he was given/not true! -:- Thurs, Jul 27, 2000 at 07:05:52 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Jethro -:- I did say 'I heard'(nt) -:- Tues, Jul 25, 2000 at 12:14:22 (GMT)

Helen -:- an odd memory -:- Mon, Jul 24, 2000 at 02:53:12 (GMT)

__ Selene -:- not weird -:- Mon, Jul 24, 2000 at 03:49:29 (GMT)

__ __ Helen -:- not weird -:- Tues, Jul 25, 2000 at 00:54:01 (GMT)

__ __ Sir Dave -:- not weird but see Lewis Carol's prophesy for Lard -:- Mon, Jul 24, 2000 at 12:35:15 (GMT)

__ __ __ Selene -:- thanks for the laugh. -:- Tues, Jul 25, 2000 at 02:59:43 (GMT)

Insurance Company -:- Elan vital must have problems lately finding -:- Mon, Jul 24, 2000 at 01:38:46 (GMT)

__ Joe -:- Why do you say they are having problems? (nt) -:- Mon, Jul 24, 2000 at 01:39:56 (GMT)

__ __ SB -:- Maybe because of his new claim? -:- Mon, Jul 24, 2000 at 12:43:05 (GMT)

__ __ __ Joe -:- Maybe because of his new claim? -:- Wed, Jul 26, 2000 at 00:20:41 (GMT)

Shroomananda -:- 'The Historic Dialogue' -:- Mon, Jul 24, 2000 at 01:12:59 (GMT)

__ Michael -:- 'The REAL Historic Dialogue' -:- Mon, Jul 24, 2000 at 20:29:08 (GMT)

__ __ Lurkex -:- 'The REAL Historic Dialogue' -:- Tues, Jul 25, 2000 at 00:37:31 (GMT)

__ __ __ Michael -:- Thank you. At least someone liked it! NT -:- Tues, Jul 25, 2000 at 12:40:36 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ cq -:- Just lurve those jive gooroo bunnies! (nt) -:- Tues, Jul 25, 2000 at 18:27:12 (GMT)

__ ~SB~ -:- Urgently: Get a SHRINK (nt) -:- Mon, Jul 24, 2000 at 19:31:59 (GMT)

__ Gregg -:- Can I get an Amen, somebody? -:- Mon, Jul 24, 2000 at 14:39:50 (GMT)

__ Jerry -:- 'The Historic Dialogue' -:- Mon, Jul 24, 2000 at 12:53:07 (GMT)

__ G -:- 'The Historic Dialogue' -:- Mon, Jul 24, 2000 at 04:05:37 (GMT)

__ Michael -:- 'The Historic Dialogue' -:- Mon, Jul 24, 2000 at 03:50:36 (GMT)

__ Rocket-EX -:- 'The Historic Dialogue' -:- Mon, Jul 24, 2000 at 01:26:46 (GMT)

__ __ DV -:- M has been quoted as saying ' I hate the IRS.' -:- Mon, Jul 24, 2000 at 11:20:04 (GMT)

__ __ __ Joe -:- And the IRS is deeply hurt..... -:- Mon, Jul 24, 2000 at 17:00:54 (GMT)

__ __ __ Joey -:- M has been quoted as saying ' I hate the IRS.' -:- Mon, Jul 24, 2000 at 11:35:34 (GMT)

__ __ V. Interested -:- 'The Historic Dialogue' -:- Mon, Jul 24, 2000 at 03:12:40 (GMT)

Sir Dave -:- I still don't believe it -:- Mon, Jul 24, 2000 at 01:04:33 (GMT)

__ Hal -:- Maha's as deep as a teaspoon !! Luv it ! nt -:- Mon, Jul 24, 2000 at 17:48:27 (GMT)

__ Selene -:- it's called a cult -:- Mon, Jul 24, 2000 at 05:52:54 (GMT)

Peter Howie -:- I use the product and I feel great. -:- Sun, Jul 23, 2000 at 23:59:20 (GMT)

__ Nigel -:- Well said that fellah down under (nt) -:- Tues, Jul 25, 2000 at 14:03:51 (GMT)

__ Salam -:- Good one Pete..nt -:- Mon, Jul 24, 2000 at 00:30:16 (GMT)

__ Lurkex -:- I use the product and I feel great. -:- Mon, Jul 24, 2000 at 00:28:16 (GMT)

Lotus Eater -:- Amaroo -:- Sun, Jul 23, 2000 at 23:11:38 (GMT)

__ JohnT -:- Dead poets society (ot) -:- Mon, Jul 24, 2000 at 21:18:37 (GMT)

__ __ lotus eater -:- Loved the poem, but this parting is sweet, not -:- Tues, Jul 25, 2000 at 00:38:53 (GMT)

__ Katie -:- I really liked the poem too -:- Mon, Jul 24, 2000 at 01:02:06 (GMT)

__ ~SB~ -:- Amaroo -:- Mon, Jul 24, 2000 at 00:33:01 (GMT)

__ __ Lotus eater -:- twinkling little lardy worms nestling in -:- Tues, Jul 25, 2000 at 00:43:00 (GMT)

__ __ __ SB -:- twinkling little lardy worms nestling in -:- Tues, Jul 25, 2000 at 00:52:48 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ cq -:- toe-jam suckers' dream -:- Tues, Jul 25, 2000 at 19:05:38 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ SB -:- toe-jam suckers' dream -:- Tues, Jul 25, 2000 at 22:09:27 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ cq -:- never mind what I was looking for ... -:- Wed, Jul 26, 2000 at 17:39:02 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ JohnT -:- I gotta chill ... -:- Fri, Jul 28, 2000 at 13:59:48 (GMT)

Nigel -:- When the spell is broken... -:- Sun, Jul 23, 2000 at 21:57:49 (GMT)

__ Loaf -:- When the spell is broken... -:- Mon, Jul 24, 2000 at 14:38:21 (GMT)

__ Sir Dave -:- When the spell is broken... -:- Mon, Jul 24, 2000 at 00:15:41 (GMT)

__ ham -:- Spot on except for one small thing -:- Sun, Jul 23, 2000 at 23:27:23 (GMT)

__ __ Nigel -:- Blackmore and Greenfield... -:- Mon, Jul 24, 2000 at 17:45:29 (GMT)

__ __ __ Sir Dave -:- Blackmore and Greenfield... -:- Tues, Jul 25, 2000 at 00:39:43 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ Nigel -:- Sorry, Sir D, I must object to... -:- Tues, Jul 25, 2000 at 12:10:37 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ Sir Dave -:- I expected you to -:- Tues, Jul 25, 2000 at 16:29:01 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ Nigel -:- Thanks D. (nt) -:- Wed, Jul 26, 2000 at 21:08:48 (GMT)

__ __ __ ham -:- Blackmore and Greenfield... -:- Mon, Jul 24, 2000 at 19:02:44 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ Nigel -:- Hmm, you say the nicest things.. -:- Tues, Jul 25, 2000 at 12:59:03 (GMT)

__ __ __ Nigel -:- PS: Ham, VP, JfT, Katie and others.. -:- Mon, Jul 24, 2000 at 17:49:37 (GMT)

__ __ Jerry -:- Spot on except for one small thing -:- Mon, Jul 24, 2000 at 16:26:21 (GMT)

__ __ __ ham -:- The beauty of truth in the clear light of day -:- Mon, Jul 24, 2000 at 18:46:27 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ Jerry -:- The beauty of truth in the clear light of day -:- Mon, Jul 24, 2000 at 19:29:32 (GMT)

Date: Tues, Jul 25, 2000 at 01:20:25 (GMT) From: Jerry Email: None To: Everyone Subject: Fuck this culture shit Message:

Premies are trying, desperately, to get over with the argument that Maharaji's Lord Of The Universe phase was just cultural Hindu baggage, which he wisely let go of here in the west. My question is this. If you're God in the east, aren't you God in the west, too? Just because it's a Hindu thing for every fucking guru under the sun to call himself God doesn't mean that you're only God over there. You've got to believe you're God over here, too. God is God, right? There's only one. So, if Maharaji was calling himself God, he had to mean he was everybody's God, not just the Hindus. And when he first arrived in the west, he had to feel like the saviour come to liberate the entire world, not just some little, greasy-haired meditation teacher with some techniques for inner peace. He thought he was mankind's saviour, and really thought he was THE ONE who was going to 'establish peace in this world'. Why? Because he thought he was God, THE God, of the whole fucking universe. So later for this 'Hindu baggage'. There's only ONE God in the entire universe, and M thought he was it.

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Date: Tues, Jul 25, 2000 at 22:50:38 (GMT) From: Joe Email: None To: Jerry Subject: Fuck this culture shit Message:

I think this explanation that what Maharaji did in the 70s and 80s (let's not forget that at least until 1983, I, personally, saw him continuing to play god), was due to some cultural misunderstanding, is just the best thing Maharaji and Elan Vital can come up with, because any other explanation makes Maharaji look like a fraud and they will say anything to not do that. To a degree, they also blame it all on Mata Ji and the fact that she was a traditional 'Hindu.' First, I don't think Mata Ji was a 'traditional Hindu' because her husband was teaching that religions are nothing and can't, as we sang in ARTI, 'reveal knowledge of the soul without the grace of Satguru.' It's also midly racist to say this stuff. There is this condescension that India is backward and still believes gurus are god, etc, throughout the Elan Vital FAQs. But in a way, this is really amazing. Elan Vital, on its own website, is admitting: 1) There are a bunch of ex-followers who don't like Maharaji and/or say knowledge doesn't work, and are saying 'scathing' things about him on the internet, which anyone who reads the FAQ would probably immediately try to go and find; 2) There are a bunch of ex-followers of Maharaji who say Maharaji used to claim to be god, and they give this credence by denying it, and then they use a clip from Maharaji in which he can't even LIE right and further confuses the issue. He makes this confused statement about saying he was the messiah in the 70s. Why the hell can't Visions just tape Maharaji making a bald-faced lie? I mean if Maharaji is going to lie, at least he could do it correctly, right? But he can't even seem to do THAT right. 3) The Elan Vital website has insulted a lot of ex-followers and has made them even more committed to exposing Maharaji for the fraud that he is. 4) They admit that at programs, it looks 'to the neutral observer' that there is 'adulation' of Maharaji. Elan Vital implies that it's only because the observer is 'neutral' that is seems to be that way, and this isn't really what is going on, but the admission is interesting and really admits that Maharaji is worshipped. Why would anyone at Elan Vital, with any brains, print something like that? 5) They publicize that there are sexual molestation charges against someone in Elan Vital, but then lie about the supposed investigation they did. Again, why would you even mention it and give it publicity? 6) The idea that the ashrams 'worked' because they were a shelter from 'the drug culture' is so laughable and insulting to anyone who was in them, that this also just diminishes credibility. What a weird comment. I think I'm forgetting that this is a cult and keep expecting Elan Vital to act like a normal organization that actually tries to be effective, instead of a cult that has so many unwritten rules that what they produce appears extremely odd.

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Date: Tues, Jul 25, 2000 at 01:40:37 (GMT) From: Get the Facts Email: None To: Jerry Subject: this culture is changing rapidly Message:

India has changed. No Mahatma's . Coming into line with the West. You can't change the culture of 6000 years overnight, but be patient Jerry .

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Date: Wed, Jul 26, 2000 at 12:05:15 (GMT) From: AJW Email: None To: Get the Facts Subject: No Mahatmas Message:

Get the facts, I thought that the reason there were no mahatmas in India anymore was because of Jagdeo. As a way of firing him, after his paedophilic activities came to light, without drawing attention to the fact that he was being fired, someone came up with the idea of firing the lot of them. That way he was moved out of the limelight without drawing attention to it. Anth the Cult Watcher

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Date: Wed, Jul 26, 2000 at 12:25:11 (GMT) From: FA Email: Derrrrr.................. To: Ignorant premie Subject: One name per poster Message:

Posts from people using a different name with every post are deleted. Persistant offenders are banned. FA

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Date: Wed, Jul 26, 2000 at 19:37:01 (GMT) From: ExPAM Email: None To: All Subject: Jagdeo's Whereabouts Message:

Now he does live in India and is retired. Elan Vital definately know where he is. Instructors definately know where he is and no one is doing a damn thing. This stinks, ExPAM

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Date: Wed, Jul 26, 2000 at 14:41:50 (GMT) From: AJW Email: None To: Anth you are such a Crusa Subject: Question Message:

Ah, at last a premie with information about my favorite mahatma. So, if Jagdeo, as you say, did not live in India, where was he living? And where is he now? And where and why did Maharaji remove his Mahatma status ten years ago? Anth the won't let it lie.

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Date: Tues, Jul 25, 2000 at 02:46:57 (GMT) From: Jerry Email: None To: Get the Facts Subject: Again, you don't get it Message:

This goes beyond culture. When you call yourself God, you're calling yourself God of everybody, not just of the culture you come from. There's only one God. How can I clarify what I'm trying to say? People would like to believe that Maharaji is just letting go of his culture, which doesn't fit here in the west, but that's not it. What Maharaji is doing is retracting a claim on being God, of me, of you, of Hindus, of Americans, the Chinese, Africans, Martians, Vulcans, everybody! Throughout the universe! He wants to go from that to a humble meditation teacher. I don't think he should be allowed to get away with that. God is God, whether he's born in India or Timbuktu. You can't say that it's okay for a guy to stake a claim on being God because that's the culture he comes from. That's absurd. And then he can retract that claim just because he comes from that culture? All a silly Hindu thing that Maharaji was born into, right? Bullshit. Maharaji said he was God. Now, he doesn't want to be recognized as that. Now, he wants us all to get up off our knees, and just see him as a simple, humble meditation teacher. It's like some kind of spiritual musical chairs he's playing, or more appropriately, Simon Says. Simon says call me God. Simon says stop! Fuck that. He just wants to have his cake and eat it too. How much does this joker expect from us, eh? Whatever he wants, he gets, right? Wants to be God? Fine. Don't want to be God no more? Hey, that's cool too. Fuck him. I'm tired of his shit. When are you going to be?

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Date: Tues, Jul 25, 2000 at 14:44:34 (GMT) From: Jerry Email: None To: Jerry Subject: Not only that Message:

He is completely unapologetic about that 'Hindu baggage' he crammed down our throats. For years he was bombarding us with it, and then one day he decides he doesn't want to be the highest manifestation of God anymore. Just like that. And we all said fine. Why? Because even if we weren't going to worship him as God anymore, we could still look at him as being a wise and holy man, who was still our guiding light. For a lot of us, that WAS more palatable. For me, personally, I sighed with relief when he dumped the 'hindu baggage'. Because it didn't matter to me. I could still view Maharaji as being the one who KNEW, the one who was where I wanted to be, the guy who'd been to the mountain top. But this kind of adulation only works for as long as you've got Maharaji on that pedestal, and use him for your daily fix. Once he becomes truly human to you, then his behaviour becomes unacceptable. Then he becomes a guy who's got some explaining to do. Then he becomes a flawed individual who's left a trail of confused and misguided individuals in his wake, people who once gave their all to him -- something he never deserved or should have asked for. After all, he's only human, isn't he? How do you have people waking up first thing in the morning to worship you for years on end, and then decide that's not what you really are about? And with no fucking explanation for why you changed your mind other than some dumbass devotees of your's being a mouthpiece to say it was just some hindu baggage. That doesn't cut it. And then when Maharaji finally does address the issue himself, what does he say? IT NEVER HAPPENNED. He says he was always about that peace inside, and nothing else, which is a big fat lie because if it wasn't, there would be no use for this lame excuse of hindu baggage. Maharaji should just come clean. He should admit that he really did, at one time, buy into all this baloney that he brought over with him, and then, for some reason which he has yet to explain, decided it wasn't good enough for him anymore. One thing he has got HUGE balls for doing is expecting us to just play along. But I guess he knew all along that we would. Such are the benefits of being a cult leader.

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Date: Tues, Jul 25, 2000 at 19:16:50 (GMT) From: cq Email: None To: Jerry Subject: and not only this Message:

Jerry, it's a sad fact that we bought into his dominatorix trip. Ultimately WE were the ones who helped to put him on that pedestal, and now he's decided he doesn't like that particular pedestal (the 'God' one) well, fuck us, he'll just go and create another fantasy in which it never happened, and fill his world with suckers who just pay the bills, without demanding anything of him, other than to watch a vid. or DVD of him now and again. He's done this 're-invention' trip before. No doubt he thinks he can do it again. Unfortunately for him, in the real world, history does tend to write its own version of events.

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Date: Tues, Jul 25, 2000 at 15:29:43 (GMT) From: JohnT Email: None To: Jerry Subject: No balls Rawat Message:

One thing he has got HUGE balls... With repect, I think you must mean 'chutzpah'. His shameless and audacious conduct reflects is no more than ignore-ance. True courage would involve dealing in truth for the first time in his wholly inauthentic and false existence. He is deeply inadequate. Had he any balls he'd have sued us long ago.

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Date: Tues, Jul 25, 2000 at 02:28:11 (GMT) From: Salam Email: None To: Anyone Subject: Has gm held a meeting in India lately, if so Message:

does anyone knows what he said, or can translate from hindu to English, I like to compare what is he saying over there to that of the west. Also what goes he(gm) operate under in India, DLM or something else, if you have a link please post it. Salam

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Date: Tues, Jul 25, 2000 at 04:13:14 (GMT) From: Jean-Michel Email: None To: Salam Subject: Did you read the Recent Satsang in India section Message:

on the EV-DLM Papers ? That might answer some of your questions.

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Date: Tues, Jul 25, 2000 at 08:40:17 (GMT) From: This is not recent Email: None To: Jean-Michel Subject: Get with the Programme Mr 1987 Hasbeen Message:

Try Last year and this year Mr History Teacher.

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Date: Tues, Jul 25, 2000 at 13:53:28 (GMT) From: Jean-Michel Email: None To: This is not recent Subject: Would you please send me the transcripts ? Message:

I'll be glad to have them online......and happy to see that EV doesn't have anything to hide!!!

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Date: Wed, Jul 26, 2000 at 08:22:11 (GMT) From: It's very simple Email: None To: Jean-Michel Subject: They are available for anyone to see. Message:

Get them yourself. Go rent the video. For christ's sake!

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Date: Wed, Jul 26, 2000 at 08:49:53 (GMT) From: Jean-Michel Email: None To: It's very simple Subject: You mean an edited video? or the real thing? Message:

Why don't you help me do that ? I'm presently very busy with all the documents on the Smart Card, that Who Is GM book, and piles of stuff I can't process !!!!! If this is so transparent, why isn't this all available ?

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Date: Tues, Jul 25, 2000 at 18:51:16 (GMT) From: cq Email: None To: Jean-Michel Subject: Touche! (nt) Message:

Ha ha ha!

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Date: Tues, Jul 25, 2000 at 05:02:38 (GMT) From: Salam Email: None To: Jean-Michel Subject: Thanks JM, you do no happen to know any Message:

recent indian satsangs? Also I tried searching for Divine United Organisation URL on the net, does not seem to have any, do you know better. I found this on the net http://perso.club-internet.fr/jmkahn/premie.htm (jmkahn) does that has to do with you? the link seems corrupted.

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Date: Tues, Jul 25, 2000 at 08:13:27 (GMT) From: Jean-Michel Email: None To: Salam Subject: Thanks JM, you do no happen to know any Message:

the EV-DLM Papers website was moved to a new location: open your eyes, and follow the link at the top of this very page !!!!! If you don't know why it's been moved there, check ex-premie.org homepage !!

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Date: Tues, Jul 25, 2000 at 03:28:21 (GMT) From: SB Email: None To: Salam Subject: I have few not too old Message:

but can the translation to english taken as fair for the west?LOL I bet the translation doesn't repeat exactly what he says there.

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Date: Tues, Jul 25, 2000 at 04:05:02 (GMT) From: Salam Email: None To: SB Subject: I have few not too old Message:

Can you e-mail them to me?

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Date: Tues, Jul 25, 2000 at 22:05:31 (GMT) From: SB Email: None To: Salam Subject: I have few not too old Message:

Hi! I'm having problems with my email account. Something is wrong and cannot access them. When I can I will email you. SB

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Date: Wed, Jul 26, 2000 at 00:27:16 (GMT) From: Selene Email: None To: SB Subject: hey SB I just wrote you email Message:

sounds like you may not get it. So, I wanted you to know I only got your msg. at about 5pm today. It came in about 8:30 my time. I am not sure what timezone you are on but I am at the moment 3 hours behind Eastern Standard Time. So sorry I missed you!

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Date: Tues, Jul 25, 2000 at 01:16:13 (GMT) From: Lurkex Email: None To: Everyone Subject: Nick Danger are you there? Message:

I just read a piece on the Real Truth about Maharaji page about a model who had an affair with MJ and Raja Ji, and then they denied it and blew her off and she lost it and ended up in a psychiatric institution. I knew this woman (how many models did they have affairs with?). I only knew about Raja Ji, not the Lard. Nick Danger was the poster about this, but does anyone else know about this? Her family (premies at the time) were incredibly kind to me in a time of stress.

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Date: Tues, Jul 25, 2000 at 22:09:37 (GMT) From: Joe Email: None To: Lurkex Subject: Is she still in a mental institution? Message:

What did she say about her affair with Raja Ji and Maharaji? Was it a three-some? What an awful thought.

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Date: Tues, Jul 25, 2000 at 02:58:02 (GMT) From: V. Interested Email: None To: Lurkex Subject: M's affair with a model Message:

Lurkex, How do I proceed to The Real Truth About Maharaji? Enquiring minds like mine want to know. thanks, V. Interested

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Date: Tues, Jul 25, 2000 at 10:03:06 (GMT) From: Sir Dave Email: None To: V. Interested Subject: M's affair with a model Message:

The site which you are refering to is The Truth about Maharaji and the specific pages you want to read about these affairs are at Maharaji's affairs.

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Date: Mon, Jul 24, 2000 at 20:42:02 (GMT) From: Joe Email: None To: Everyone Subject: Maharaji the Divine Pilot Message:

It's pretty amazing that in Maharaji's 'biography' on the Elan Vital website, which is entitled: Biography - The Man Behind the Message, they make a big deal about the fact that Maharaji is a pilot. His piloting skills are discussed in an entire section of his biography, right up there with his being 'spiritually astute (huh?)' and a 'child prodigy.' Strange, really. Why would anyone care that Maharaji is a pilot, and why is it such a big deal on his biography? Anyhow, Elan Vital says the following in the section of M's biography called 'Learning to Fly': Learning to Fly By the age of twenty two, in 1980, he had received a type rating in a Citation II, which is a small business jet, and was also given an instrument rating on the same flight. Most pilots get their first instrument rating in a single engine plane, the Citation is by comparison, a much more demanding and complex plane. What is notable and quite unusual in Maharaji’s track record as a pilot is his achievement of a broad array of type ratings in a relatively short span of time. Each type rating is a hard won classification, up to three weeks can be spent in a flight simulator, where pilot skills are tested intensely before the candidate is cleared as qualified to fly. Maharaji has a natural ability for flying and has made rapid progress through ratings for jets, helicopters and gliders. In 1983, Maharaji was given an Airline Transport Pilot License. One month later he received his type rating for a Boeing 707. By this time, he had also become a qualified helicopter pilot, and was to receive a private license for gliders in 1984. Just under ten years later, Maharaji qualified to fly a Gulfstream IV. While touting these major acheivements in aviation, Elan Vital doesn't mention the many advantages Maharaji had that many other people don't have, due to his 'successful' lifestyle. For instance, during many of those years, donations from the premies enabled Maharaji to have a full-time, fully-licensed aviation instructor at his disposal at all times. Plus, Maharaji never had a job in his life, and didn't have to support a family or himself while engaging in his hobby of flying planes and thus had leisure time, money and personnel to ensure that he could get whatever he wanted. He scheduled 'events' when he felt like it, and I recall long periods in th 70s and 80s when Maharaji didn't tour at all, just hung out and fiddled with his toys and learned to fly planes. Just to give some context to the discussion.....

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Date: Tues, Jul 25, 2000 at 06:52:02 (GMT) From: TD Email: None To: Joe Subject: The youngest qualified commercial pilot in the US? Message:

For some reason, while I was a premie, the whole pilot trip of Maharaji's was important to me. I felt proud of him as I was told by a few premies that Maharaji was the youngest qualified commercial pilot ever in the US, which added to the 'ain't he the holy one?' and this proves yet again that he's the walking talking Lard trip, as if any other mere mortal could achieve that at that age? Does anybody know if this is true, or is it just a premie myth perpetuated around the community? I also think that because on the whole, only a few premies would have a pilot's licence, it does hold that 'glamour' aspect to it, as unless you're a professional pilot who does it for a living, the only other people who can afford to learn and own a plane are people with lots of spare cash, as it's an expensive hobby. You were spot on Joe about how easy it was for him to get a licence as he never had to work and could afford the best instructor premie's money could buy. Part of the reason I think they emphasise it so much in his biography is it somehow softens the fact that he's just another mega-rich guru who flies about in his own mega-expensive jet. By saying he's a pilot, it makes him different to ones like the Maharishi, to premies eyes. As in 'he's not just sitting in the lap of luxury in the back of the Gulfstream enjoying himself', but rather 'he's actually working, by flying it' on his way to teach the poor ignorant folk of the world about K! Aaah! Oh and another reason I think he's a pilot is so that he can get all those mushy new-age cloud shots from the cockpit that feature in all the EV videos.

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Date: Tues, Jul 25, 2000 at 16:45:40 (GMT) From: Joe Email: None To: TD Subject: Not Likely Message:

I felt proud of him as I was told by a few premies that Maharaji was the youngest qualified commercial pilot ever in the US, which added to the 'ain't he the holy one?' and this proves yet again that he's the walking talking Lard trip, as if any other mere mortal could achieve that at that age? Does anybody know if this is true, or is it just a premie myth perpetuated around the community? Hi TD. I doubt that claim, because you can bet that if Maharaji WERE the youngest qualified commercial pilot, it would be emblazoned on the Elan Vital biography of him. I mean, between his website and EV's, they attempt to dredge up every positive thing about M's life they can find, even stating that he was a good student in elementary school. The biography says he got his commerical pilot rating in 1983, when Maharaji was 25 or 26, so that actually isn't so young. Many commerical pilots come out of the military, learning to fly plans when still in their teens and early 20s. I think the bottom line is that Maharji likes to fly planes. That's why he likes getting newer and better planes all the time. He likes it. To suggest that flying jets to 'events' around the world is some kind of burden on him is nuts. Again, if Maharaji doesn't feel like doing a program he doesn't. He cancels them all the time, and sets his own schedule. Then he flies his own jet there and is treated like a king before and after he arrives. My yes, what a terrible burden he has. Someone should be shot for all the 'cloud shots' in Elan Vital videos. They give new meaning to the word 'schlock.'

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Date: Tues, Jul 25, 2000 at 12:16:56 (GMT) From: Nigel Email: None To: TD Subject: The youngest qualified commercial pilot in the US? Message:

Hmm, I wonder what kind of 'important work' the spanking brand new luxury yacht fulfils... 'Coz it ain't as if it's some two man dinghy for messing about in on a Sunday afternoon. Corporate hospitality, perhaps? - Naah, shouldn't be so cynical... He surely uses it to personally spread K to isolated places like Tuvalu that don't have a big enough landing strip for the Gulfstream.

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Date: Tues, Jul 25, 2000 at 00:47:20 (GMT) From: ~SB~ Email: None To: Joe Subject: Elan Vital forgot our picture of DOUBLE DARSHAN Message:

The black and white picture JM posted here, well, here are all the darshans we have...Elan Vital forgot to mention much about this particular practice. To remember. Darshans

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Date: Tues, Jul 25, 2000 at 01:17:50 (GMT) From: Sir Dave Email: None To: ~SB~ Subject: Also his expertise at driving chariots Message:

Not only can he drive aeroplanes but he can also drive chariots and another fact that is little known is that Maharaji also doubles as the King of Samoa when he's not doing his normal day job of inventing watches. Click here to see Maharaji as the King of Samoa He's a multitalented man is Maharaji.

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Date: Tues, Jul 25, 2000 at 18:37:58 (GMT) From: cq Email: None To: Sir Dave Subject: Hah!that motorised armchair. Was is a charity gig? Message:

stuyt

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Date: Tues, Jul 25, 2000 at 13:55:24 (GMT) From: Joe Email: None To: Sir Dave Subject: The Guy to the Left of M is Michael Donner Message:

That's a priceless picture. It's from Hans Jayanti festival in Florida in 1979. Funny how Maharaji hadn't gotten around to eliminating the Hindu concepts by that point. But just for information, the buy walking to the left of the chariot is Michael Donner. You know, the guy who used to smoke dope with Maharaji in the Kitteridge Building?

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Date: Tues, Jul 25, 2000 at 16:31:57 (GMT) From: Sir Dave Email: None To: Joe Subject: The Guy to the Left of M is Michael Donner Message:

If have any details about Maharaji and Donner smoking dope and you'd like to write a piece about Maharaji smoking dope with Mike Donner then it would be well received here and would also go nicely on my web site.

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Date: Tues, Jul 25, 2000 at 23:10:04 (GMT) From: Jim Email: None To: Sir Dave Subject: Donner's info Message:

Donner told me that he used to smoke dope with Maharaji who was notorious for hogging, or 'bogarting', joints. That's it. No more, no less.

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Date: Tues, Jul 25, 2000 at 16:47:34 (GMT) From: Joe Email: None To: Sir Dave Subject: Jim? Message:

I think Jim can respond to this much better than I.

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Date: Tues, Jul 25, 2000 at 14:01:12 (GMT) From: Joe Email: None To: Joe Subject: Michael Donner -- correction Message:

Sorry, it's early. The GUY walking to the left of the Chariot with the longish hair is Michael Donner.

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Date: Tues, Jul 25, 2000 at 01:38:18 (GMT) From: ~sb~ Email: None To: Sir Dave Subject: Also his expertise at driving chariots Message:

I was there somewhere walking behind him...YUCK! he's so ugly. My mother was right when she said she couldn't understand what I saw on him...My poor mother would find piles of pictures of maharaji in my room and shake her head saying, when are you going to realize what you are doing with your life...It took me so long to understand what she was talking about...In those days we were incouraged to go to his programs, remember? Traveling, following him, all the time... Disgusting!

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Date: Tues, Jul 25, 2000 at 03:28:51 (GMT) From: Selene Email: None To: ~sb~ Subject: at least you didn't marry him. Message:

Imagine that! The thread with Joe got me thinkiing about Marolyn. And her pathetic letter a few years ago. There are worse ways to sell one's body that is for sure.

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Date: Tues, Jul 25, 2000 at 04:20:33 (GMT) From: ~SB~ Email: None To: Selene Subject: at least you didn't marry him. Message:

I did, I just 'divorced' him...sniff...

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Date: Tues, Jul 25, 2000 at 03:31:24 (GMT) From: oops ps from Selene Email: None To: SB Subject: oops I think that last sentence Message:

was supposed to be written a different way... There are better ways to sell oneself.

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Date: Tues, Jul 25, 2000 at 00:39:17 (GMT) From: Jerry Email: None To: Joe Subject: Way to go, Joe Message:

I can't tell you, Joe, how invaluable your input is when you set the record straight. You are truly a thorn in the side of EV. That's a compliment, I hope you understand :)

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Date: Tues, Jul 25, 2000 at 20:22:05 (GMT) From: Joe Email: None To: Jerry Subject: Thanks, Jerry Message:

To be honest though, it doesn't take much to be a 'thorn' when all you have to do is point out that the emperor has no clothes.

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Date: Mon, Jul 24, 2000 at 22:15:44 (GMT) From: hamzen Email: None To: Joe Subject: But is he any good in bed? Message:

So strong and true is he that within ten years of marriage, marriage to the perfect master and source of all, Marilyn was shagging their chauffeur, so rumour has it!

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Date: Mon, Jul 24, 2000 at 22:38:28 (GMT) From: Joe Email: None To: hamzen Subject: But is he any good in bed? Message:

Right. Seeing that they tout Maharaji's accomplishments as a pilot and his watch collection, just think of what they left out. There is no mention of his dancing abilities, including doing difficult movements while wearing gold crowns and even carrying a flute. And the total lack of shame he had such that he would wiggle his rotund body in front of thousands should be worth noting. It was pretty enigmatic. There is also no mention of the fact that Maharaji can drive a tractor. I personally saw this in the movie 'Who is Guru Maharaj Ji' which he did while someone sang in the background a song that that asks 'who is the artist of creation?' and 'who will be feeding all the people?' Such modesty he has to refrain from mentioning this. He did other enigmatic things too, that Elan Vital failed to mention. For example, I don't think it is mentioned by Elan Vital, nor on Maharaji's website about his long-term mistress, or that he took funds from his 'successful investments' and bought her a house out in the valley outside LA. He should be credited for his excellent planning abilities, don't you think? I heard one time that Maharaji was also good at flying kites, and enjoys playing chess, too. And he is pretty good at operating fire hoses.

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Date: Tues, Jul 25, 2000 at 18:49:50 (GMT) From: cq Email: None To: Joe Subject: 'who will be feeding all the people?' Message:

Now there's a memory I'd almost forgotten. Jings. Brain cells ... who'd have thought we still had 'em? But don't forget, Joe, 'He' did feed all 'His' people. More ... ahem, fertiliser, anyone?

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Date: Tues, Jul 25, 2000 at 03:02:47 (GMT) From: V. Interested Email: None To: Joe Subject: Joe, is that really true? Message:

Is that really true about M's longterm mistress and his affair with a model??? Where do you get this inside information from? V. Interested

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Date: Tues, Jul 25, 2000 at 13:48:54 (GMT) From: Joe Email: None To: V. Interested Subject: Joe, is that really true? Message:

The fact that Maharaji has had a long-term mistress, since about 1980, and that new name was Monica Lewis (she was onloy 18 when it started), I have heard from a number of sources, and is, in fact, common knowledge among many of the premies. Note also, that neither Maharaji, nor Elan Vital has ever denied it, despite the fact that it has been discussed on this website for a couple of years now. Regarding Maharaji buying Monica a house in the LA area, I have heard that from two people, both of whom still live in Malibu, and who don't want to be outed on the forum because they fear for the safety of their families. Who else has heard these things?

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Date: Tues, Jul 25, 2000 at 14:03:36 (GMT) From: Jim Email: None To: Joe Subject: Why you up so early? Message:

Me, I couldn't sleep. Daneane was in town this weekend, by the way. Laurie and I had dinner with her last night.

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Date: Tues, Jul 25, 2000 at 14:07:13 (GMT) From: Joe Email: None To: Jim Subject: Why you up so early? Message:

For some reason I went to bed early, and I'm awake, so that's why I'm up. I usually don't get near this place until at least noon. I also have one of those early morning conference calls that I am going to try to do at home and pretend I'm in the office. (Don't tell anyone.) I'm glad you got to meet Daneane. She seems like a great person.

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Date: Tues, Jul 25, 2000 at 14:18:24 (GMT) From: Jim Email: None To: Joe Subject: Joe, that puts me in a very difficult spot Message:

I won't tell anyone, no. No, I won't do that if you tell me who not to tell. And why? Can I tell Laurie, for example? I try not to lie to her unless it's absolutely expedient. And no, Daneane was a real asshole unfortunately.

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Date: Tues, Jul 25, 2000 at 14:57:51 (GMT) From: Jim Email: None To: Jim Subject: OK, that was a joke .............................. Message:

Really, Daneane was great to meet. She was up here for the Victoria Folk Festival and got to meet and actually watch from backstage her favorite band, Blue Rodeo. She really dug that. She's a sharp woman and apparently far too much for this cult to ever deal with. Her account of the aspirant scene with one aspirant being catered to by a few premies was depressing. I actually felt sorry for the cult for a moment, if you can belive it.

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Date: Tues, Jul 25, 2000 at 04:11:33 (GMT) From: Jean-Michel Email: None To: V. Interested Subject: Blue Dunhills also forgotten in that FAQ Message:

according to one of my moles, Rawat doesn't smoke Marlboroughs at all anymore ! Too cheap ...

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Date: Mon, Jul 24, 2000 at 22:22:44 (GMT) From: Selene Email: None To: hamzen Subject: irreverence rules. thanks ham. Message:

For lightening this up but you make a point still. I wonder. She must have had her pick. All the premie guys were hot for her.

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Date: Mon, Jul 24, 2000 at 20:50:19 (GMT) From: Selene Email: None To: Joe Subject: so true Message:

I always felt that way about him. Why could *not* he achieve this flying of planes? I know people who had a passion for it, worked scut at the airlines companies just to have a chance at the industry. And flew rentals and paid LOTS of money to get their small (SMALL) jet licences. I was never that impressed. I can get up at 3 a.m. and keep a toddler from losing it. I can fly a jet. Just give me the time and money. Youth doesn't hurt either. I do also , sad to say, remember as a premie telling potential aspirants about this accomplishment of his. Like it made him some cool new renaissane man. eeesshhh.

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Date: Mon, Jul 24, 2000 at 21:29:03 (GMT) From: Joe Email: None To: Selene Subject: so true Message:

I also have it from a good source that Maharaji failed one or more of his pilot exams, even with all the advantages he had. Elan Vital doesn't mention that. Notice also that other than having pilot licenses, the other worldly 'accomplishments' of his are all unstated. My god, he is so lacking in accomplishments they are reduced on his own website to mentioning that he has a nice watch collection, has a 'pending' patent, and has had successful investments. Look, even I, mortal ME, have had 'successful investments.' In the USA, given that the stock market has increased 5-fold in the past 10 years, even if you just blindly threw money at it, you probably would be 'successful.' The point is, most ordinary people don't HAVE the money to 'invest' in making more money, they are spending it on rent and feeding their kids. But Maharaji, being the recipient of all that 'gratitude' had the luxury of being a 'successful investor.' Please excuse me if I am not impressed.

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Date: Mon, Jul 24, 2000 at 19:02:29 (GMT) From: For JM Email: None To: Everyone Subject: PRIME R and N41PR Message:

Name: PRIME RESOURCES, L.L.C. Type: Limited Liability Company File Number: LLC8205-1994 State: DELAWARE Incorporated On: May 31, 1994 Status: Current list of officers on file Corp Type: Limited Liability Company Resident Agent: WILLIAM J. CROWELL, JR. (Accepted) Address: 510 WEST FOURTH STREET CARSON CITY NV 89702 Manager or Member: STEPHEN SORDONI Address: 967 DELCHESTER RD. MGR/MBR NEWTOWN SQUARE PA 19703 Manager or Member: KENNETH DELASKI Address: 100 INTERPROMONTORY RD MGR/MBR GREAT FALLS VA 22066 Manager or Member: ALVARO PASCOTTO Address: 6116 MERRITT DR MGR/MBR MALIBU CA 90265

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Date: Mon, Jul 24, 2000 at 20:57:13 (GMT) From: Jean-Michel Email: None To: For JM Subject: PRIME R and N41PR: owned by whom? Message:

This doesn't mean that Prime R actually OWNS the aircraft! Could only and very likely operate the G4 (paid by the EV Foundation in Switzerland) ....... and owned by 'someone' else !!! The question still remains: who actually OWNS the aircraft? I'm sure EV's going to answer that one in its FAQ.

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Date: Mon, Jul 24, 2000 at 21:00:41 (GMT) From: Jean-Michel Email: None To: Jean-Michel Subject: Maybe I'm wrong ! Message:

The database says: N-number : N41PR Registrants Name : PRIME RESOURCES LLC Owner Address : 510 W 4TH ST CARSON CITY, NV, 89702 Does this mean Prime R owns the aircraft?

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Date: Mon, Jul 24, 2000 at 21:21:03 (GMT) From: Joe Email: None To: Jean-Michel Subject: Maybe You're Not Message:

At the risk of just taking things at face value, which is a real risk when it comes to Maharaji and Elan Vital, the notice says the plane is 'registered' to 'Prime Resources, LLC' and it is the 'registered owner.' I would assume it means that 'Prime Resources' owns the plane. Why would the plane to registered to an entity that didn't own it? (Not counting the financial institution that may have loaned money for the plane.) Before, I thought the plane was owned by Seva Corporation, also located in Nevada. But maybe that was a different plane.

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Date: Tues, Jul 25, 2000 at 18:18:54 (GMT) From: cq Email: None To: Joe Subject: Maybe You're Not Message:

Joe, with your insider info. (albeit at burocrat level) does the following address ring any bells with you? It seems that the Maha / SEVA is into buying up property too: http://www.coastal.ca.gov/mtg-1097.html a. Application No. 4-97-55 (Seva dba Anacapa View Estates, Malibu) Application of Seva Corporation of America dba Anacapa View Estates for two lot line adjustments of 7 lots and one re-division of 4 acres, under common ownership, at 5865 South Rambla Del Orto, Malibu, Los Angeles County. (SMH-V)

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Date: Tues, Jul 25, 2000 at 20:05:44 (GMT) From: Joe Email: None To: cq Subject: My Evaluation.. Message:

I believe the Anacapa property is THE RESIDENCE. And it makes perfect sense that the theme park known as Maharaji's RESIDENCE in Malibu is owned by a corporation and not Maharaji personally. There are lots of reasons for this, tax and otherwise, and also if M were sued, the house might be protected from being attached. The California Coastal Commission has to approve changes to properties located on, or adjacent to the California coast. Apparently Seva (Maharaji) was applying for some changes to the lot lines in 1997, perhaps in connection with the big new house that he built there. I think Mary Holle, an old time premie, is the President of Seva. So, Seva is the title-holder of the house, and the LLC that J-M found is the owner of the plane. It's a real scam. Elan Vital 'leases' the plane from the corporation and who knows were the money goes from there. Maybe the corporation makes a profit from leasing the plane and then gives a 'gift' to Maharaji of the profits. Hmmmm. Is this a way of transferring money to Maharaji personally from Elan Vital?

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Date: Wed, Jul 26, 2000 at 01:11:15 (GMT) From: G Email: None To: Joe Subject: map of streets around 'the residence' Message:

I think you're right about it being 'the residence'. There was another application for some road work, there was a fundraiser years ago for some road work. Click on the following for a map: Mapquest map of 5865 RAMBLA DEL ORTO DR, MALIBU, CA (I have the zip as 00000, but it works) I noticed in a recent post that Rawat had an Anacapa View Drive address, maybe one address is an alias of the other. Rambla Del Orto Drive is right off Anacapa View Drive.

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Date: Wed, Jul 26, 2000 at 02:35:09 (GMT) From: G Email: None To: Joe Subject: the other address Message:

I found the link to an archived post (the link was recently posted) where another address was given for Rawat: 31334 Anacapa View Dr MALIBU, CA, 90265-2673 Click on the following link to see a map: Map quest map It doesn't seem to be the same address. I did a search on Anacapa View Dr, Malibu, CA at www.anywho.com, got a few addresses but no Rawat, I guess because his phone is unlisted. When I searched on Rambla Del Orto, I got no results.

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Date: Wed, Jul 26, 2000 at 18:09:14 (GMT) From: Joe Email: None To: G Subject: Thanks.... Message:

I think one of the addresses may be 'the residence' and one may be some sort of office or maybe the housing for the servants/slaves who work at 'the residence.' I know that you have to go up Trancas to get to 'the residence,' so it's one or the other.

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Date: Tues, Jul 25, 2000 at 20:11:35 (GMT) From: Joe Email: None To: Joe Subject: Clarification Message:

So, it seems that Maharaji's residence is owned by Seva Corporation, which is owned and run by premies. The Gulfstream IV plane is registered to Prime Resources, LLC, whose members are a different set of premies. What other shell game of corporations does Maharaji engage in? And isn't it clear misrepresentation for Elan Vital to states on its webpage that the plane Maharaji flies is 'leased from a private corporation' without saying that the corporation is controlled by Maharaji because it's members are all his followers/devotees? I call that clear misrepresentation, if not an outright lie. Shame on you, Elan Vital!

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Date: Thurs, Jul 27, 2000 at 06:47:49 (GMT) From: SB Email: None To: Joe Subject: I thought I gave money to maharaji!! Message:

I remember giving money for HIS plane. He put it on other people's names? NO! I can't believe that! Something is VERY wrong in this picture.

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Date: Thurs, Jul 27, 2000 at 19:26:05 (GMT) From: cq Email: quartus@postmaster.co.uk To: SB Subject: IMPORTANT - SB and other donators please read this Message:

Did you make your donation payable to ELAN VITAL? Where did you send your donation? Have you the letter/any documentation requesting donations? Please email above, if you can help. Thanks, Chris

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Date: Tues, Jul 25, 2000 at 20:27:59 (GMT) From: Joe Email: None To: Joe Subject: Also Message:

I notice that Seva Corporation if a FOR PROFIT Corporation, with no pretenses about being non-profit, like Elan Vital. This means that: Elan Vital, which is a non-profit church run by premies, the donations to which are tax deductible as a result, turns around and pays money to lease the plane Maharaji flies to Seva Corporation, which is a FOR PROFIT corporation, also owned and run by premies, who then do SOMETHING with the profits. Can't imagine what, can you? Can you say 'shell game?'

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Date: Tues, Jul 25, 2000 at 20:30:20 (GMT) From: Joe Email: None To: Joe Subject: OOOps Message:

No, it's PRIME RESOURCES, which is the FOR PROFIT corporation from which Elan Vital leases the plane for Maharaji to fly.

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Date: Wed, Jul 26, 2000 at 17:48:17 (GMT) From: cq Email: None To: Joe Subject: we're getting there Message:

Joe, things are gradually getting clearer, and thanks for your input. If exes have a clear understanding of how the scam works, it makes our standpoint all the more credible. Should you previous post read something like this: ? 'I notice that Prime Resources is a FOR PROFIT Corporation, with no pretenses about being non-profit, like Elan Vital. This means that: Elan Vital, which is a non-profit church run by premies, the donations to which are tax deductible as a result, turns around and pays money to lease the plane Maharaji flies to Prime Resources, which is a FOR PROFIT corporation, also owned and run by premies, who then do SOMETHING with the profits. Can't imagine what, can you? Can you say 'shell game?' ' I notice you describe Elan Vital as a 'non-profit church'. Is that the IRS' description? In which case, how come he says that the 'knowledge' (or should that be with a capital K?) has nothing to do with religion???

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Date: Wed, Jul 26, 2000 at 18:14:15 (GMT) From: Joe Email: None To: cq Subject: Correct Message:

Yes, that' what I meant to say. Elan Vital is registered as a church by the State of California. If it were registered as a non-profit charity or educational institution, or whatever, it would have to file information with the state on the amount of donations, and how the money is spent, etc., and that information is available to the public. But churches are exempt from the requirement. So, guess why Elan Vital is a church! This is a big loophole in the US tax laws. Some time ago I spoke with the Registry of Charitable Trusts which keeps the information on non-profit institutions. They said that as of 1989, Elan Vital changed it's designation to a church and therefore no longer has to file any information.

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Date: Thurs, Jul 27, 2000 at 13:29:27 (GMT) From: SB Email: None To: Joe Subject: Correct, but about the incosistencies such as Message:

the fundraising for the Gulfstream which plenty of written evidence prove that it was bought for maharaji to propagate Knowledge and now is used for profits? And why the plane now is in somebody's name other than maharaji? I will hate to be loosing time on something that soembody else is doing. Has anybody informed the US authorities about all this inconsistencies? Has anybody gathered information and contacted anybody? We keep saying all in the open here giving advantage to maharaji and crew to change their stories. Why are we doing this openly here? I'm refering to this: Some time ago I spoke with the Registry of Charitable Trusts which keeps the information on non-profit institutions. They said that as of 1989, Elan Vital changed it's designation to a church and therefore no longer has to file any information.

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Date: Thurs, Jul 27, 2000 at 16:45:58 (GMT) From: Joe Email: None To: SB Subject: Correct, but about the incosistencies such as Message:

I don't know if there are any 'profits' from leasing the plane, but Elan Vital and Prime Resources, being both run by Maharaji-cult members, means it's just a paper transaction, and they can set any amount they want. In a normal corporate situation, Elan Vital, if it was leasing a plane for Maharaji to fly, would have to go out into the market and try to get the best deal, and not enter into a sweetheart deal with a company run by friends of the management. In this situation, the company that owns the plane is just another cult entity. But, since Elan Vital would lose it's church status if it was just a front to give money to Maharaji, using Prime Resources and saying that EV is just renting the plane from a 'private company' to get M to events is really misleading, and, also, it leaves open the possibility the Prime Resources could make a profit from leasing the plane to EV, and then, the 'members' of Prime Resouces could get the profits and turn around and donate them to Maharaji. The IRS would be REALLY upset about something like that going on.

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Date: Wed, Jul 26, 2000 at 18:33:19 (GMT) From: cq Email: None To: Joe Subject: How CAN Elan Vital be a 'CHURCH'??? Message:

...when it describes itself thus: 'Neither his (Maharaji's) teachings nor the process of communicating them lend themselves to becoming belief systems and he vigorously discourages attempts to make them so.' 'People come from a wide range of religious, social and cultural backgrounds.' And from the Maha's own website: 'Does Maharaji advocate a specific lifestyle or religion?' 'Maharaji neither encourages nor discourages any particular lifestyle or religion, and his teachings are independent of either.' 'Maharaji receives no fees, honoraria, compensation, or benefits of any kind from any of the organizations that support his work.' So who at the 'State of California' should be contacted about this? Any idea what department?

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Date: Thurs, Jul 27, 2000 at 03:06:04 (GMT) From: bill Email: None To: cq Subject: the Irs WOULD be interested in these claims that Message:

it is not a religion.

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Date: Wed, Jul 26, 2000 at 20:29:23 (GMT) From: Look in www.guidestar.org Email: None To: cq Subject: How CAN Elan Vital be a 'CHURCH'??? Message:

Elan Vital, Inc. PO Box 6130 Malibu, CA 90264-6130 Program / Activities Information currently not available in database Financial Info Assets: $ 0 Income: $ 0 This organization is not required to file an annual return with the IRS because it is a church.   EIN: 23-7174539 Ruling Year: 1971 How to Help For individual tax filers who itemize federal income tax deductions, a cash donation to this public charity is fully deductible up to 50% of the taxpayer's adjusted gross income (AGI). Special rules may apply to certain noncash donations and to contributions not made by individuals; consult your tax adviser. Any resale of this information or use for commercial gain is prohibited, except in accordance with a GuideStar® licensing agreement. GuideStar is a project of Philanthropic Research, Inc., a 501(c)(3) nonprofit organization. Copyright 2000, Philanthropic Research, Inc. All Rights Reserved. | Policies

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Date: Wed, Jul 26, 2000 at 21:32:28 (GMT) From: Joe Email: None To: Look in www.guidestar.org Subject: Thanks (nt) Message:

nt

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Date: Wed, Jul 26, 2000 at 18:45:46 (GMT) From: Joe Email: None To: cq Subject: The Registry of Charitable Trusts - Joey? Message:

Is most likely the best source. Also the Franchise Tax Board which collects taxes. Actually, Elan Vital is a Colorado Corporation. As we know, it is Divine Light Mission with a name change, and was incorporated in 1971, just like Elan Vital says on its website. They changed the name to Elan Vital in 1986, at least in California. So, Colorado might be the state to contact to find out more about this. A lot of things can be considered a 'church.' Again, it's a big loophole. Some time ago, Joey posted a website on which you can check out non-profit institutions. Under 'Elan Vital' it said that they didn't have to file tax forms because Elan Vital is a church. Joey might be able to tell you how to re-check that.

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Date: Mon, Jul 24, 2000 at 19:53:03 (GMT) From: Joe Email: None To: For JM Subject: Is this the Gulstream IV 'private corporation?' Message:

According to Elan Vital, in its attempt to show that Maharaji isn't as filty rich and doesn't live the grand lifestyle we have suggested, the luxury Gulfstream IV jet, which Maharaji, out of his supreme dedication to helping the people of the world, does not charge to pilot, is leased from a 'private corporation.' I assume this is the 'private corporation.' From what I have heard the plane is worth over $20,000,000, and premies raised the money to buy it, just like they raised the money to buy Maharaji's previous planes, including a Boeing 707. Regarding the members of this LLC: Stephen Sordoni, is a premie I recall from Miami. He and his wife were independently wealthy, I think from family money. I remember they had a Renoir or a Rembrandt or something like that in their home in Miami. He and his wife were in the inner 'jet-set' circle that Maharaji hung out with. They always sat up front at Maharaji programs. 'Kenneth Delaski' is another 'member' of this 'private corporation.' I recall Don Delaski as a premie in the Washington DC area, who was also quite wealthy. Perhaps Kenneth Delaski is a son of his? We have all heard about Alvaro Pascotto. He is also a premie and was an Italian initiator at one point, and I understand he is now an attorney in Southern California who specializes in aviation law. It would be interesting to get the current list of officers. I would suggest that it includes another premie, Mary Holle, and maybe Linda Gross, although that might be too many hats for her, also being President of Elan Vital. The Elan Vital website implies that the plane Maharaji flies is leased from some company that leases planes to various customers as a business. That isn't true. In reality, the plane is owned by a shell corporation owned by premies, and Maharaji is the only 'customer' for the plane. Maharaji completely controls the plane and the separate corporation is just for PR purposes, and probably for tax reasons.

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Date: Tues, Jul 25, 2000 at 03:10:07 (GMT) From: V. Interested Email: None To: Joe Subject: Were you one of the jet set? Message:

Dear Joe, You know so much about the inner sanctum. Where you one of these? You have so much inside information. Have you written a journey? Best Regards, V. Interested

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Date: Tues, Jul 25, 2000 at 16:23:27 (GMT) From: Joe Email: None To: V. Interested Subject: Definitely Not..... Message:

I never had enough money to be part of the Maharaji 'jet-set' inner circle. In fact, as I have mentioned before, I was a premie for 10 years, and lived in the ashram for almost 9 of those years, and I never even met Maharaji, he never even spoke to me even once during that whole time, and I doubt he even knew I was alive. I did, at one point, become a minor bureaucrat in Elan Vital, and since part of that was in Miami, where the Lord deigned to move his headquarters in 1979, and where he had a luxury 'residence' and where an army of premies remodeled a Boeing 707 for him, I got to know who some of these people are. One thing about the rich, 'jet-set' premies, is that, because they don't have to work and money is a lesser object to them, they can pick up and relocate to wherever ther rest of the inner circle resides. For awhile, that was Miami, and many of them moved there. There is a funny mind-set among the Maharaji 'inner circle.' There is almost a frenetic competition to get close to Maharaji, to be involved with him and spend time with him. Many people, in my opinion, bought access to him by giving hiim lots of money. This same mind-set existed among poor premies as well, but there were at a distinct disadvantage because they, like me, didn't have money, and were therefore of much less (read: Zero) interest to Maharaji. I don't think it was so much that being with Maharaji was so great. It was more that it was of a limited quantity. He only allowed so many people near him. Since it was relatively scarce, there was a lot of competition for it. Plus, Maharaji used access to him as a form of reward an punishment. If he was unhappy with someone he just sent them away and they had a sort of experience of banishment. This practice that Maharaji engaged in was openly talked about among people who were in the 'being-close-to-Maharaji' rat race. One thing was for sure. If you gave money (lots of money) were otherwise in favor, or if you were an initiator, you got to sit in the front rows at cult programs, which was a very high social status in the premie kingdom. The message was clear. Some people are in the front feeling superior to the people in the back, and some are in the back wishing they WERE in the front.

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Date: Tues, Jul 25, 2000 at 18:35:09 (GMT) From: Selene Email: None To: Joe Subject: the seating game Message:

What a trip that was. Last few times I went to an 'international event' there was quite a racket going on with the premies who did the seating service (or is it participation?) either answering the phone and getting your credit card number, etc. They'd book like 18 seats. I forget if there was a limit, don't think so. One for their daugher, their daughter's frind, their friend blah blah. Then sell them to or exchange for favors with other premies they knew. It was another way to assure a closer seat. I look back on it and just am amazed how bizarre it all was.

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Date: Tues, Jul 25, 2000 at 20:07:27 (GMT) From: Joe Email: None To: Selene Subject: A black market in seats? Message:

What kind of 'favors' were exhanged for seats. Did this involve money, sex, drugs? The possibilities are endless. ::))

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Date: Tues, Jul 25, 2000 at 23:58:18 (GMT) From: Selene Email: None To: Joe Subject: Pretty hilarious isn't it? Message:

I saw it though. Could give names even but I won't. Teh possiblities ARE endless and most likely occurred. All to get a better glimpse at M. Be closer to what you already are supposed to already have PLUS he isn't god ro anything special, he said so right? So what is the point? Got me.

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Date: Tues, Jul 25, 2000 at 03:45:18 (GMT) From: Selene Email: None To: V. Interested Subject: look at the journey section Message:

why are you so interested in Joe. ---------------------------- (SB I am a contender for Super Brat of the year)

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Date: Mon, Jul 24, 2000 at 22:20:28 (GMT) From: hamzen Email: None To: Joe Subject: If they became exes, then it would be theirs? (nt) Message:

a

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Date: Mon, Jul 24, 2000 at 22:25:29 (GMT) From: Joe Email: None To: hamzen Subject: Not Likely Message:

I'm sure there would be controls for that, including requiring a UNANIMOUS vote to run off with the assets and things like that. In the USA, a limited liability company is a relatively new animal. It's like a corporation, but easier to set up, and you can do about anything you want in the LLC Agreement. I'm sure that agreement has lots of controls to be sure Maharaji retains control over what the LLC does, through the other 'members.' Plus, it is set up under Delaware law, which is known for being the easiest on corporations.

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Date: Mon, Jul 24, 2000 at 21:35:19 (GMT) From: aziz Email: None To: Joe Subject: Delaski Message:

Kenneth Delaski is Don Delaski's son, is a premie, and is Don's right hand man in Don's company Deltek, Inc. Kenneth owns lots of stock in Deltek. Prem Rawat (aka Maharaji) might own a smaller chunk of Deltek. I saw Don sitting in a front-row seat at a program. BTW, Ira Woods is also in Don's company.

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Date: Mon, Jul 24, 2000 at 20:12:08 (GMT) From: Know It All Email: None To: Joe Subject: I wonder, I wa wa. wa...waaa... wonder.... Message:

I wonder if anyone other than M ever pilots this plane? I also wonder what the destinations of this plane are if someone other than M pilots it? KIA

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Date: Tues, Jul 25, 2000 at 01:05:19 (GMT) From: Smuggling Email: None To: Know It All Subject: I wonder, I wa wa. wa...waaa... wonder.... (nt) Message:

(nt)

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Date: Mon, Jul 24, 2000 at 18:08:54 (GMT) From: Joe Email: None To: Everyone Subject: The Holy Family Rift -- Maharaji's Health Message:

On the Elan Vital website, under the biography section, there is the following statement: The matter finally came to a head when in June 1974, aged 16, he married Marolyn. At twenty-four, she was eight years his senior. For his mother, this was the final straw. She accused her youngest son of betraying every tradition she held sacred. She disowned him and returned to India. Once there she helped his elder brother start a separate movement. The strain of this rift with his family took its toll on Maharaji's health. He offered reconciliation with his family, an offer which was never accepted. First, is the 'strain on Maharaji's health' those ulcers he supposedly had when he was 15? Or was that some other time? I know we were told the ulcers were due to Maharaji taking on the suffering in the world and that it manifested physically. His little body just couldn't deal with the strain of saving the entire world. At the time we didn't know that it involved him having an affair with an older woman when he was 15, and disputes with his mother. Regarding the 'reconciliation,' is that true? Was there ever any attempt to try to pull the family back together from either side? Just for those who have forgotten or weren't around, prior to the time Maharaji got married, we had pictures of his Mother and three brothers on the same altars that had Maharaji's pictures. Then, suddently, we were told to remove them. Premies also kissed the feet of Maharaji's mother and brothers (yuck) just like they kissed Maharaji's feet (more yuck), which followers of Maharaji still do to this day. Regarding the 'final straw,' it was my understanding that while Maharaji's mother didn't approve of the marriage, it wasn't until the Amherst Guru Puja program in July, 1974, two months after the wedding, when Maharaji had Marolyn (whom he had named Durga Ji, as some kind of God herself) sit in a side-by side throne with him, that his mother really lost it. Do you recall that we used to pranam to Durga Ji (aka Marolyn), and that we replaced 'DURGA MATA KI JAI!!!' with all the Bohe Shri's for the holy family members? In retrospect, it was clear that Maharaji was REPLACING his mother and brothers as objects of worship and devotion, with Marolyn. It was my understanding that this is what really upset Mata Ji (his mother). Another question. How much do you think Marolyn was into that?

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Date: Tues, Jul 25, 2000 at 23:49:33 (GMT) From: slackandsteel Email: None To: Joe Subject: The Holy Family Rift -- Maharaji's Health Message:

The ulcer was at least a year before Marolyn, maybe more. I think it was attributed to overconsumption of Coca-Cola if I recall correctly. There was a paragraph or so in a national magazine about it and I think it was his doctor who made the comment about cola. Does anyone remember that GM said he only meditated for 'about a month' after he received Knowledge and that he 'realized it' at this time, and didn't meditate after that. I still can't believe a 14-year old guru who had an ulcer and didn't meditate was able to convince us that he was a 'Perfect Master'.

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Date: Wed, Jul 26, 2000 at 15:31:39 (GMT) From: Sucksganga Email: None To: slackandsteel Subject: but you have to trust you heart Message:

You can't look at maharaji with your mind. You have to trust your heart. As long as your heart is telling you to trust him, if your heart is telling you he is a fraud, then that is really your mind, not your heart, because your heart can only feel love for the master. Sit. Down. Rollover. Good boy.

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Date: Thurs, Jul 27, 2000 at 13:35:37 (GMT) From: SB Email: None To: Sucksganga Subject: I love my perennials too. (nt) Message:

yack

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Date: Mon, Jul 24, 2000 at 18:18:47 (GMT) From: Selene Email: None To: Joe Subject: Who can imagine what goes on in Marolyn's mind Message:

Back then it looked like she was a brainwashed as the rest of us. And it looked like she was VERY into the attention it all was getting her. She just 'glowed' (more yuck) sitting on that thone. Then I'd think even back then when I'd see him with his hair all greasy; - how could she have sex with him????? (more yuck) Didn't Mishler say in his interview that those were also the years M was drinking heavy? Couldn't heve helped his ulcers.

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Date: Mon, Jul 24, 2000 at 18:32:57 (GMT) From: Joe Email: None To: Selene Subject: Maharaji Drinking Heavy...... Message:

Yeah, I think Mishler said that Maharaji was drunk a lot of the time and Sophia Collier says in her book that Maharaji was smashed on alcohol in between his speaking engagements at Millennium. But from the people I have spoken with, Maharaji continued to drink heavily at least through the 80s. I have heard from people I trust enormously, that he would go on real benders. I don't know if that continued, but people who have been around him are amazed at how much alcohol he can consume. I guess I would attribute that to getting a very early start in his life on alcohol consumption and getting used to drinking a lot of it. As for the effects on him physically, I don't know if drinking caused the ulcers, but isn't it weird for someone that young to have ulcers? Also, his speech was pretty incoherent most of the time I heard him, so maybe that was the bottle talking too. Plus, just LOOK at those gladbags he's got under his eyes, adn the general puffiness of his eyes. Like someone said, his eyes are litterally just slits.... That looks like the effects of years of alcohol consumption as well.

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Date: Tues, Jul 25, 2000 at 03:54:06 (GMT) From: Ben Lurking Email: benlurken@aol.com To: Joe Subject: Maharaji Drinking Heavy...... Message:

I was working at the Denver residence after the Amherst festival and m showed up a week early. They didn't want anyone to know he was in town and I was driving atruck so I hualed 2-3 bages of trash a day from the residence for 2-3 days, it was mostly liquor bottles, champagne. I can't remember what I thought about the bottles. I wasto excited to be in on a big secret and got darshan one day and I remember telling people we were working out there and getting the truck and going to a park and ssing or bsing

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Date: Mon, Jul 24, 2000 at 20:02:30 (GMT) From: RobertB Email: bobb@wintelsolutions.com To: anyone Subject: Amherst drinking..... Message:

As we were leaving Amherst in 74 (?) we picked up the local paper. It had a brief article about the festival, plus a report from the hotel that a large bottle of booze was sent by room service to the Perfect One's room.

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Date: Tues, Jul 25, 2000 at 02:15:01 (GMT) From: Been through this Email: None To: everyone Subject: 'You can't fuck a Lambourgini' GM -1974? Nt Message:

nt

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Date: Tues, Jul 25, 2000 at 08:18:40 (GMT) From: Jethro Email: None To: Been through this Subject: I heard it that he was given Message:

a Lambourgini, and when he saw how small it was in the back seat he said 'You can;t even have afuck in that'

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Date: Tues, Jul 25, 2000 at 10:00:26 (GMT) From: richard petty Email: None To: Jethro Subject: I heard it that he was given/not true! Message:

Sorry to contradict you Jethro, but the back of the lamborghini was PLENTY big,as we ALL got fucked by him, when he got it....

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Date: Thurs, Jul 27, 2000 at 07:05:52 (GMT) From: Ben Lurking Email: None To: richard petty Subject: I heard it that he was given/not true! Message:

I believe that car was a gift from a premie named Star -he was a welder and came into a trust or something. Thetas the car Ron Colleta was driving at 100+ across country for m and got tossed in jail in Nebraska. Ron used to carry multiple id's so he could show different states id's when he got tickets. Seems they came across these in Nebraska which made his stay a little more expensive.

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Date: Tues, Jul 25, 2000 at 12:14:22 (GMT) From: Jethro Email: None To: richard petty Subject: I did say 'I heard'(nt) Message:

jkh

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Date: Mon, Jul 24, 2000 at 02:53:12 (GMT) From: Helen Email: None To: Everyone Subject: an odd memory Message:

Hey all, Just got back from my vacation yesterday. You know how vacations are so good for shaking a person loose from his/her moorings. I was reading this great sci fi book by Octavia Butler and one scene in the book reminded me of a guru-days memory. I was riding my bike in a small town in MI where I lived at the time. I lost control of the bike and fell and skinned my arm, leg etc. I remember the pain actually feeling GOOD because it jolted me into feeling alive when I had been feeling so numb for so long. Numbness being the primary bodily sensation I seemed to feel being an aspirant. This disturbs me A LOT that the way I coped with the dissonance of the premie scene was to numb/dissociate. But then again, it was my survival M.O. growing up in my family so I guess it isn't so surprising. An odd memory, falling off my bike, and an interesting comment on the life of being an aspirant--when pain was actually preferable to being numb. Weird, huh?

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Date: Mon, Jul 24, 2000 at 03:49:29 (GMT) From: Selene Email: None To: Helen Subject: not weird Message:

I'd rather feel than be numb. I'm thinking most people would. Do you know the most hit on sites on the net? I have been helping a research project. Yes they are the sex sites. But guess which ones? Tne S&M sites. Falls into place with what we are saying. People will go to great lengths to fight the lonliness, to feel.

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Date: Tues, Jul 25, 2000 at 00:54:01 (GMT) From: Helen Email: None To: Selene Subject: not weird Message:

Tell me what you find in your research. S & M always seemed pretty harmless to me as long as it's consensual. Hey, what ever gets ya through, ya know?

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Date: Mon, Jul 24, 2000 at 12:35:15 (GMT) From: Sir Dave Email: None To: Selene Subject: not weird but see Lewis Carol's prophesy for Lard Message:

I can relate to all of that. Back in the late seventies I used to ride my bike across London to satsang every night, come rain or shine, come hail or snow and one evening in the Winter the roads were covered in ice and snow and I came a cropper as I came hurtling down off one of the Thames bridges onto the slip road. Some guys got out of their cars to see if I was OK and I actually felt quite exhilarated although bruised and sat on the ice talking to them quite happily. When I finally did get to satsang that night I was just greeted with the same non-plussed premie faces and the same old diatribe and it was an anticlimax, to say the least. And now to Lewis Carol's prophesy. He already knew about the coming of the Lard aka Humpty Dumpty so click here to read the prophesy and see how true it is. The second part of the prophesy has still to come, of course and you don't need me to tell you what that is!

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Date: Tues, Jul 25, 2000 at 02:59:43 (GMT) From: Selene Email: None To: Sir Dave and Helen Subject: thanks for the laugh. Message:

I'll email you both some of the stuff I have gathered for the English Dept. cool links. {grin} Not NEARLY as interesting as EV's site or M's. But I think you would both like them. And you are right Helen, the S & M stuff IS harmless compared to what M and his little soldiers are doing.

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Date: Mon, Jul 24, 2000 at 01:38:46 (GMT) From: Insurance Company Email: None To: Everyone Subject: Elan vital must have problems lately finding Message:

cheap insurance for their knowledge businness. I wonder why is so, so expensive to insure Elan Vital these days? Any ideas why?

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Date: Mon, Jul 24, 2000 at 01:39:56 (GMT) From: Joe Email: None To: Insurance Company Subject: Why do you say they are having problems? (nt) Message:

Nt

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Date: Mon, Jul 24, 2000 at 12:43:05 (GMT) From: SB Email: None To: Joe Subject: Maybe because of his new claim? Message:

I know personally many premies who's families where upset with their involvement following Lardy maharaji, mine were, and I'm thinking that when it becomes more and more public that the Lord of The Universe is not Lord anymore, just a mortal, it will incite anger with those parents that have to hear for so long, for decades that maharaji was God encarnated. I wouldn't want my insurance company to insure maharaji's organization now that he is God anymore. I wonder who is insuring them? You know what I mean? How easy it would be for him to keep all he has and have the 'poor' insurance CO. pay his damage. I was just trying to understand what that would mean.

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Date: Wed, Jul 26, 2000 at 00:20:41 (GMT) From: Joe Email: None To: SB Subject: Maybe because of his new claim? Message:

There have been claims against DLM and Maharaji for claimed emotional distress, etc. I know there was a claim in about 1979 by the parents of a girl who was given knowledge as a minor and has some kind of emtional problems. Note that there is all kind of statements that someone has to be at least 18, or have written permission from parents in order to receive knowledge. This is all to try to prevent litigation. I don't know who insures M or Elan Vital, but I'm sure they have insurance. An insurance company, if the claim is covered, has to defend someone no matter how much money they have. That's part of the purpose of insurance -- to protect assets.

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Date: Mon, Jul 24, 2000 at 01:12:59 (GMT) From: Shroomananda Email: None To: Everyone Subject: 'The Historic Dialogue' Message:

A week from Tuesday will mark 34 years since Maharaji first stood up at his father’s funeral on August 1, 1966, and said, “Dear children of God, why are you weeping? Haven’t you learned the lesson that your master taught you? The Perfect Master never dies. Maharaji is here, amongst you now.” I’m posting the following dialogue between Shri Hans Ji Maharaj and Swami Sarupanand Ji Maharaj because I felt that people with Knowledge might find it interesting. “The Historic Dialogue” is part of a 20 page booklet that I found in the used book section of the Bodhi Tree bookstore in Los Angeles a few years ago. I paid 15 cents for it which, coincidentally, was its original price when it was first offered in November 1968. The booklet was a second edition, the first edition having been published in Novermber 1967. It is quite possibly the earliest English publication from Divine Light Mission after Maharaji succeeded Shri Hans as Master in 1966 at 8 years old. It was entitled “Shri Hans Ji Maharaj” and briefly told his life story including “The Historic Dialogue” which is presented here in its entirety: In his later years, Sadgurudev Shri Hans Ji Maharaj used to refer often to the first meeting with his guru and give a vivid description of the conversation that ensued. Here are some excerpts from the records kept by those who had the good fortune to hear him speak on the subject: Sarupanand Ji Maharaj: Have you any interest in religion? Hans Ji Maharaj: Yes, I am very much interested in religion. I want to realize the Truth. But I don’t believe in false gurus and rituals. Swami Dayanand has influenced me greatly. I have read the Upanishads and the Gita. The Ramayama too is read in my family. But I like the Upanishads very much. Sarup: Do you think god can be realized by studying the scriptures? Hans: No, no, one has to acquire mental concentration and practice meditation. One should perform yama and niyama and then seek to attain samadhi which is a state of perfect realization. Sarup: What type of meditation do you practice? Hans: I perform havan and sandhya, and meditate on “Om”. Sarup: Do you get proper concentration? Where do you fix your mind? Does it not wander while you meditate on “Om”, because the thought waves are faster than the speed of your recitation? Basically, you cannot attain total control of mind solely through external aids. The real Yoga is that which is eternal and contains in itself the means of ensuring concentration. As Patanjali has described: chita vriti nirodhashya yogeh. “Om” deals with the three states of mind, while the fourth state called “Turiya” does not come within the compass of “Om”. Samadhi cannot be attained unless Turiya is reached. Moreover, the scriptures tell us of two types of knowledge, para and apara. It is only para knowledge which can lead to Self-realization, and you don’t know even its ABC! Hans: Frankly speaking, your talk is quite stimulating, and I feel there is something very important which I know not in spite of my knowledge of the scriptures. I have not had so far any flash of intuition. Sarup: It is good that you speak the truth. Only a truthful person with a guileless heart can visualize the self-effulgent Being in the cavity of his heart. Have you ever tried to focus your mind on this Supreme Being which is called Bhargo in the Vedas and Jyoti in the Upanishads? Hans: No, I had some strange visions of light in my early childhood, but now I don’t have any. Sarup: You are a great soul with a large fund of good samskaras of previous lives. You need only a spark. But what is the fun of repeating Ram-Ram, or Om-Om, or the gayatri mantra without practicing what is meant by these mantras? Should we not practice what we say? Hans: Yes, but I don’t know how to understand and practice it. Sarup: Has not the study of the scriptures enabled you to know it? If, however, it cannot be known through the scriptures alone, then what is the right way to achieve it? Hans: May be by the grace of god, because the Upanishads say that He reveals himself to one whom He chooses! Sarup: How can you say that god’s grace is not with you? He has given you the human frame which is the gateway to liberation. Have you not read in the Upanishads that this knowledge can only be attained through a spiritual teacher, that is, a realized soul? Have you approached any such teacher? Hans: No, I do not trust the gurus, and I believe that only god can be the best guru of the aspirant. Sarup: Then why did Swami Dayanand go to Virjanand, and why did Nachiketas go to the Lord of Death? According to our scriptures, one can get this knowledge only from a realized soul and not by any other means. Hans: I am not averse to approaching a guru in pursuit of knowledge, but I cannot worship him as god in the way most of the gurus are fond of being worshipped. Sarup: That is a minor matter. What is relevant is the acquisition of true knowledge. Once you get it from a real teacher, you will naturally develop a reverence and love for him. In this matter, your own experience must be the best guide. Hans: Well, if you could possibly give that knowledge, I would request you to impart it to me. Sarup: Yes, I can do so, and, when I initiate you into the Holy Name (Word), you will yourself realize its tremendous significance. However, success in its application can be achieved only by ceaseless devotion and perseverance. Practice makes a man perfect. Hans: Of course, I shall practice it with all the sincerity and perseverance at my command. My longing for the Truth has grown so intense that it cannot any longer be restrained until it is fulfilled.

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Date: Mon, Jul 24, 2000 at 20:29:08 (GMT) From: Michael Email: None To: Shroomananda Subject: 'The REAL Historic Dialogue' Message:

Well, I know that this is just one amazing find, but I have managed to discover the actual ‘historic dialogue’ between those incredibly holy and saintly barefoot, dhoti-clad, God realized fellows, Sarupanand-ji Maharaj and the big Kahuna, Hans-ji Maharaj. Sarupanand Ji Maharaj: Hans-ji, how are things? Hans Ji Mahara: Fair to middlin’. And you, how’s it going? Sarupanand Ji Maharaj: Okay, been shopping for devotees. How’s the wife and kids? Hans-ji Maharaj: Well, Satpal needs glasses, but that little Prempal, what a cut-up! He loves to tell everyone what to do. Oh, wait, I don’t have any kids yet; must be my amazing psychic abilities kicking in again! Sarupanand Ji Maharaj: Have you any interest in religion? Hans Ji Maharaj: Yes, I am very much interested in religion, especially as a possible money making venture. I want to realize the Truth but I do have a family to support. But I don’t believe in false gurus and rituals. Swami Dayanand has influenced me greatly. I have read the Upanishads and the Gita. The Ramayama too is read in my family. But I like the Upanishads very much. And some stuff by that Ramakrishna fellow; very droll. Sarup: Do you think god can be realized by studying the scriptures? Hans: No, no, one has to acquire mental concentration and practice meditation. One should perform yama and niyama and then seek to attain samadhi which is a state of perfect realization. Sarup: What type of meditation do you practice? Hans: I perform havan and sandhya, and meditate on “Om”. Also, I find that I can get pretty close to the Divine Light when I have a stroganoff made from these mushrooms here. Sarup: What would you say if I told you I can teach you some techniques which will really amaze the hayseeds and will eventually bring in some big bucks, if not for you, at least for your heir? Hans: Frankly speaking, your talk is quite stimulating, and I feel there is something very important which I know not in spite of my knowledge of the scriptures. I have not had so far any flash of intuition. Sarup: What? Hans: I mean, yeah, I’m interested. Sarup: It is good that you speak the truth. Only a truthful person with a guileless heart can visualize the self effulgent Being in the cavity of his heart. Have you ever tried to focus your mind on this Supreme Being which is called Bhargo in the Vedas, Jyoti in the Upanishads, YHWH in the Hebrew Scriptures, and Bob in the Book of the Subgenius? Hans: No, I had some strange visions of light in my early childhood, usually when I rubbed my eyes, but now I don’t have any. Sarup: You are a great soul with a large fund of good samskaras of previous lives, but you need a large trust fund for that future family of yours. You need only a spark and a few rupees. But what is the fun of repeating Ram-Ram, or Om-Om, Shubba-shubba, or Rama-lama ding-dong if it doesn’t pay? Hans: Keep talking; I ‘m listening... Sarup: Has not the study of the scriptures enabled you to know it? If, however, it cannot be known through the scriptures alone, then what is the right way to achieve it? Look, let me show you this stuff; if you like it, fine; if it doesn't’ t work, forget the rest. Hans: May be by the grace of god, because the Upanishads say that He reveals himself to one whom He chooses! Sarup: What? Will you keep focused? Get with the program, Hans. Say, isn’t that a German name? Hans: Sorry. Sarup: That’s more like it. Well first you do this..... (Sarup initiates Hans in the mystical techniques which are now called Knowledge. Sarup squeezes Han’s eyeballs to see the Divine Light, has him stick his thumbs in his ears to hear the Divine Music, tells him to be aware of his breath to experience the Word, and then shows him how to stick his tongue up past his uvula to drink of that fountain of divine nectar.) Sarup: Whadda ya think? Pretty cool, huh? Hans: Well, I think you had your finger in my eye. And that tongue thing; ‘sup wid dat? Sarup: That is a minor matter. What is relevant is to convince people that this is the true knowledge. Once you convince folks that they got it from a real teacher, they will naturally develop a reverence and love for you and give you anything you ask for. I’m telling you, it’s a gold mine!! Hans: But what if they think these techniques are goofy? I’m mean, stick your thumbs in your ears? And that tongue thing.... Sarup: How can you say that god’s grace is not with you? He has given you the human frame which is the gateway to liberation. And i have given you a sure-fire technique which will keep the rubes coming for years! Have you not read in the Upanishads that this knowledge can only be attained through a spiritual teacher, that is, a realized soul? Have you approached any such teacher? Of course you have, me!!!! And now I’ve taught you this and you can make a family business of the whole thing. Hans: No, I do not trust the gurus, and I believe that only god can be the best guru of the aspirant. Sarup: You dipshit, if you don’t trust gurus, what the hell are you doing here? Come on, everybody knows you want to be a guru yourself; you’re not fooling anyone. According to our scriptures, one can get this knowledge only from a realized soul and not by any other means. You came to me, I gave it to you, and you can pass it on and make some serious cash. Hans: I am not averse to approaching a guru in pursuit of knowledge, but I cannot worship him as god in the way most of the gurus are fond of being worshipped. Sarup: Don’t knock it until you’ve tried it, Hans. Besides, now they are going to be worshiping you, ya big galoot! Just think, every November, “Hans Jayanti”, and every Summer, “Guru Puja” with big honking posters of your beaming face. Hans: Well, when you put it that way, it IS appealing... Sarup: Yes, it is. So, whadda ya think? You in on this deal? Hans: Of course, I shall practice it with all the sincerity and perseverance at my command. My longing for the Truth has grown so intense that it cannot any longer be restrained until it is fulfilled. Sarup: What? Hans: Count me in!!!!

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Date: Tues, Jul 25, 2000 at 00:37:31 (GMT) From: Lurkex Email: None To: Michael Subject: 'The REAL Historic Dialogue' Message:

I loved your REAL historic dialogue. Thank you. It gave me a real good laaarrrfff!! (Don't know why the particular posters below didn't appreciate it but I bet lots of other lurkers laughed their lurking asses orrf).

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Date: Tues, Jul 25, 2000 at 12:40:36 (GMT) From: Michael Email: None To: Lurkex Subject: Thank you. At least someone liked it! NT Message:

no text

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Date: Tues, Jul 25, 2000 at 18:27:12 (GMT) From: cq Email: None To: Michael Subject: Just lurve those jive gooroo bunnies! (nt) Message:

sdfyw5

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Date: Mon, Jul 24, 2000 at 19:31:59 (GMT) From: ~SB~ Email: None To: Shroomananda Subject: Urgently: Get a SHRINK (nt) Message:

sick

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Date: Mon, Jul 24, 2000 at 14:39:50 (GMT) From: Gregg Email: None To: Shroomananda Subject: Can I get an Amen, somebody? Message:

This is too funny. Some 'shroomed-out faithful member quoting some totally specious 'dialogue' on this site to...I don't know, why? The 'dialogue' is a pedantic exposition of DLM's weak-minded mish-mash of Hindu wisdom. Can you imagine these two actually speaking these words? If so, you must have a capacity for suspension of disbelief so great that, well, you could mistake a dissolute playboy millionaire for a wise man.

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Date: Mon, Jul 24, 2000 at 12:53:07 (GMT) From: Jerry Email: None To: Shroomananda Subject: 'The Historic Dialogue' Message:

Boorrrrinnnng!

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Date: Mon, Jul 24, 2000 at 04:05:37 (GMT) From: G Email: None To: Shroomananda Subject: 'The Historic Dialogue' Message:

Thanks. Let's suppose that this conversation took place as described. Sarup: '... Basically, you cannot attain total control of mind solely through external aids. The real Yoga is that which is eternal and contains in itself the means of ensuring concentration. ... ... How can you say that god’s grace is not with you? ...' How do you reconcile these statements with the rest of what he says? A guru and meditation techniques are external aids and are not eternal. If god's grace is with you, then what need is there of a guru? This goes against all of Prem Rawat's previous explicit talk (and now implicit suggestion) of 'Maharaji's grace'. Hans: 'No, I do not trust the gurus, and I believe that only god can be the best guru of the aspirant.' He should have stuck with his instincts. Hans: 'I am not averse to approaching a guru in pursuit of knowledge, but I cannot worship him as god in the way most of the gurus are fond of being worshipped.' Sarup: 'That is a minor matter. ... you will naturally develop a reverence and love for him. ...' Worshipping another person as a god is a 'minor matter'??? Tell me, do you worship Prem Rawat as a god? Now let us stop supposing that this conversation took place as described. To me, this sounds made up. How do we know that this conversation actually happened?

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Date: Mon, Jul 24, 2000 at 03:50:36 (GMT) From: Michael Email: None To: Shroomananda Subject: 'The Historic Dialogue' Message:

I'll bet that the dialogue is quoted verbatim, too. You are a real sucker, boy. This is just more bullshit. Why don't you spend your time at ELK?

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Date: Mon, Jul 24, 2000 at 01:26:46 (GMT) From: Rocket-EX Email: None To: Shroomananda Subject: 'The Historic Dialogue' Message:

The day I really long for is when Maharaji has his own 'Historic Dialogue.' With the IRS.

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Date: Mon, Jul 24, 2000 at 11:20:04 (GMT) From: DV Email: None To: Rocket-EX Subject: M has been quoted as saying ' I hate the IRS.' Message:

I wonder why?:) The PAM who overheard this figured it was directed at him and he immediately quit his IRS job!

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Date: Mon, Jul 24, 2000 at 17:00:54 (GMT) From: Joe Email: None To: DV Subject: And the IRS is deeply hurt..... Message:

Because the IRS does not have THAT understanding -- that Maharaji never does anything wrong and is above rules and regulations.

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Date: Mon, Jul 24, 2000 at 11:35:34 (GMT) From: Joey Email: None To: DV Subject: M has been quoted as saying ' I hate the IRS.' Message:

I love your very short but highly insightful post, DV. A thousand times more interesting and relevant than anything shroomer's put on the board :)

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Date: Mon, Jul 24, 2000 at 03:12:40 (GMT) From: V. Interested Email: None To: Rocket-EX Subject: 'The Historic Dialogue' Message:

I found that remarkably interesting. What a find. Thanks. V. Interested

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Date: Mon, Jul 24, 2000 at 01:04:33 (GMT) From: Sir Dave Email: None To: Everyone Subject: I still don't believe it Message:

I'm sorry but I will go to bed now but I just have to say, with reference to the Elan Vital video clip, that I cannot believe how all the premies in the audience who were listening to Maharaji's claptrap actually laughed at his pathetic attempt at some kind of childish humour. No wait, that's insulting children. Most children I know have a good sense of humour and are naturally funny. How can people find this bloke funny? He's transparent. He's about as deep as a tea spoon. So what kind of people all laugh in unison at Humpty Dumpty's attempt to make something funny out of a pathetic lie? It beggars belief.

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Date: Mon, Jul 24, 2000 at 17:48:27 (GMT) From: Hal Email: None To: Sir Dave Subject: Maha's as deep as a teaspoon !! Luv it ! nt Message:

sdfg

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Date: Mon, Jul 24, 2000 at 05:52:54 (GMT) From: Selene Email: None To: Sir Dave Subject: it's called a cult Message:

groupthink. Group NON think. I remember last event. 97. I grumbled a little too loudly in my seat about having to sit through that band, whoever they are, the blonde lame singer singing another wishy washy song I have heard for 25 years. I wanted to go but my friend didn't. someone sitting in back of me heard me. Whispered to his wife or whatever next to him 'another mind attack' I swear I wanted to scream. But I sat and tried to be good. Last and final visit to the Lard for me!

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Date: Sun, Jul 23, 2000 at 23:59:20 (GMT) From: Peter Howie Email: None To: Everyone Subject: I use the product and I feel great. Message:

After I left Maharaj Ji I sold some Herbalife for a while. Herbalife is a multi-level marketing organisation very like Amway. It met some of the needs that were met by being a premie. It had great, uplifting sales meetings, I was supported to try new things (selling) I met wonderful new and interesting people. Anyway it took me a while to realise it was a sales job by another name. I don't like selling so I quit. Anyway I spent heaps on their products at the time which is relaly what they were after - a large consumung sales force. Anyway the point of this thread has been inspired by many threads below. Specifically the arguments about what constitutes a decent argument. Now without getting into the semantics and semiotics of the real argument - what the Herbalife people used to do was essentially identical with what premies do and indeed I used to do - which is why it fit well for me at the time. When people asked difficult questions about the products - firstly we were encouraged to simply get people to 'try it you'll like it' type of stuff. But if people were really serious about asking real questions regarding diet, health etc we were cautioned - 'You are not allowed to diagnose people - simply say 'Well Im don't know about that. All I know is thart I use the products and I feel great.' If they continued - do it all over again. 'Well I don't know about that. I use the products and I feel great.' ad nauseum. e.g. 'Will this stuff help me with ....' 'Well I don't know about that. I use them and I feel great' I reminds me of the final premies/mystic argument. 'Well I don't know about theat. I practice the knowledge and I feel great' It is not an argument it is a sales pitch and an abfuscation. Nothing wrong with saying it - but as an answer it is, a many of you have pointed out, a diversion not and answer. Cheers Peter Howie

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Date: Tues, Jul 25, 2000 at 14:03:51 (GMT) From: Nigel Email: fitzroy@liverpool.ac.uk To: Peter Howie Subject: Well said that fellah down under (nt) Message:

nt

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Date: Mon, Jul 24, 2000 at 00:30:16 (GMT) From: Salam Email: None To: Peter Howie Subject: Good one Pete..nt Message:

nt

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Date: Mon, Jul 24, 2000 at 00:28:16 (GMT) From: Lurkex Email: None To: Peter Howie Subject: I use the product and I feel great. Message:

I was delving into Herballife too, decades ago, and I am naturally very skinny (actually because of illness). There was a badge (button) to wear that said Lose Weight Now, Ask Me How. Someone said to me: you should wear one of these badges and you'll get lots of people asking you because you're so thin, and you can say it was because of Herballife. So I left. Sounds a bit like being a premie, and having my natural goddess-given radiance claimed by the Lard and his schtick.

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Date: Sun, Jul 23, 2000 at 23:11:38 (GMT) From: Lotus Eater Email: None To: everyone Subject: Amaroo Message:

Love’s Trinity by Alfred Austin, posted on forum v by ‘JohnT’ Soul heart and body we thus singly name, Are not in love divisible and distinct. But each with each inseperably linked. One is not honest, and the other shame, But burn as closely fused as fuel heat and flame. They do not love who give the body and keep The heart ungiven, nor they who yield the soul, And guard the body. Love doth give the whole; It’s range being high as heaven, as ocean deep, Wide as the realms of air or plant’s curving sweep. This poem expresses clearly in words a very human feeling. It is not linked in any way with Maharaji’s cult, (probably a young man’s lust!). Reading it, I thought about Amaroo. That is what Amaroo came to mean for me and now I have it back, thank you John.

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Date: Mon, Jul 24, 2000 at 21:18:37 (GMT) From: JohnT Email: None To: Lotus Eater Subject: Dead poets society (ot) Message:

Hi Lotus Eater, My feeling is that one couldn't be in love with a person and get off on that poem and be into m's scene. Oh yeah, it also says sex is OK - a natural part of human love. Sooo, you gonna tell what did happen at Amaroo? Are are you just gonna tease, hmmm? You parted with ol' lardy toes after that, right? PARTING by Emily Dickinson My life closed twice before its close; It yet remains to see If Immortality unveil A third event to me So huge, so hopeless to conceive, As these that twice befell. Parting is all we know of heaven, And all we need of hell.

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Date: Tues, Jul 25, 2000 at 00:38:53 (GMT) From: lotus eater Email: None To: JohnT Subject: Loved the poem, but this parting is sweet, not Message:

sorrow! Here is a bit from the archives: Dear Way, I was eighteen when I received Knowledge, I'm now 45, 'budding' anger!!!!!just trying to take an intelligent approach to this, it's no joke dealing with powerful emotions. Love Lotus Now I've got that off my chest, I reread your posting, you are still answering my questions, THANK YOU. It's a bit like coming out of a deep freeze, the touch of a spring breeze being an expression of affection rising naturally and being responded to by the person beside you. Incidentally, the two emotions I remember most strongly from sitting on that hill were when Maharaji talked about that bloody wallaby overcoming it's fear to come and drink the water. It broke through my objectivity and in my head I was yelling 'don't do it maharaji, don't you think the fear is there for a good reason' I felt an extraordinarily beautiful feeling of love and the other one was when he said there were 60,000 (I think that was the number, of course further reflection made me realise the number was bullshit) people waiting to receive Knowledge, I felt distressed, he had just finished saying everything has to come to an end, and I had thought that he meant his trip....I wish he would start thinking about what he can do to help the people who already are caught up in this, I believe it is his best bet to help himself. Can you imagine what it would be like for him if, instead of a few people up at the back looking at him, thinking ‘get a grip’, there was a sizeable percentage of the audience……then don’t even try to imagine the effect of the aftershock on those Poor Attenuated Masochists. Shaking but still cool, Lotus Eater. So that, John, was written shortly after the last amaroo event. I know I’m a bit of a tease, but I’ve come a long way from there and just when I was beginning to wonder whether I would ever be able to write about it, along comes your poem and the whole thread that accompanied it and suddenly I am breathing easier and getting ready to write. Up until now, I have choked up a lot, still am a bit, but last night (slightly drunk) at dinner with friends, I declared in loud comfortable tones how much happier I am feeling now that I have got the guru shit out of my chest and out of my head…..subtext came up in my head of how I had just read Nigel saying he was still digging it out after ten years, oh god, oh god…..

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Date: Mon, Jul 24, 2000 at 01:02:06 (GMT) From: Katie Email: None To: Lotus Eater Subject: I really liked the poem too Message:

Thanks to JohnT for posting it. And, LE, glad it helped. Poetry is great sometimes, isn't it?

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Date: Mon, Jul 24, 2000 at 00:33:01 (GMT) From: ~SB~ Email: None To: Lotus Eater Subject: Amaroo Message:

Did you kiss his feet at Amaroo?

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Date: Tues, Jul 25, 2000 at 00:43:00 (GMT) From: Lotus eater Email: None To: ~SB~ Subject: twinkling little lardy worms nestling in Message:

nasty socks: Sure hon, lined up and went on through, kissed the nasty sock, felt like I’d just walked through granite, that was in 97, there was one in Brisbane just before that I think, hadn’t been in a darshan line for years, took my shoes off AUTOMATICALLY even though it had been so long I’d forgotten about that, he locked into my gaze as I entered the room, kissed the nasty sock, felt a timeless blissful feeling….hahahahahaha another line in New Zealand just before that one ( I wasn’t there)….oh yes the Pacific premies were sooo graced. There haven’t been any ‘official toe kissing ceremonies’ around here since then.

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Date: Tues, Jul 25, 2000 at 00:52:48 (GMT) From: SB Email: None To: Lotus eater Subject: twinkling little lardy worms nestling in Message:

Thanks for sharing that...I went blank, sorry. Amazing, isn't? How many times I did that too and now it look so sickening. I posted up a link to the darshan pictures if you care to look. I'm glad you are here, out. SB

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Date: Tues, Jul 25, 2000 at 19:05:38 (GMT) From: cq Email: None To: SB et al Subject: toe-jam suckers' dream Message:

WARNING: naked feets here for all you premie toe-suckers: http://www.montenegrovideo.com/feet.htm Hoo! Who'd have thought the Maha's darshan would lead to this!

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Date: Tues, Jul 25, 2000 at 22:09:27 (GMT) From: SB Email: None To: cq Subject: toe-jam suckers' dream Message:

What were you looking for when you found this?! What were you 'searching' for... I'm laughing so hard...LOLOLOL... I like your humor! SB

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Date: Wed, Jul 26, 2000 at 17:39:02 (GMT) From: cq Email: None To: SB Subject: never mind what I was looking for ... Message:

... I didn't dare take a peek beyond the home page! talk about tootsie temptation - was the rest of the site ... er ... interesting?

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Date: Fri, Jul 28, 2000 at 13:59:48 (GMT) From: JohnT Email: None To: y'all Subject: I gotta chill ... Message:

... for a while. Back later. xx JT

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Date: Sun, Jul 23, 2000 at 21:57:49 (GMT) From: Nigel Email: fitzroy@liverpool.ac.uk To: Everyone Subject: When the spell is broken... Message:

They think I'm a hypnotist. A reasonable assumption given that I research the stuff, running hypnotic inductions with task suggestions, 'wake up' cues and the rest. Newcomers understand the script in advance and act their roles in good faith trusting me to deliver an experience. And it seems to work. But no way am I an accomplished hypnotist. I am not ANY kind of hypnotist since I neither believe in hypnosis or hypnotists, accomplished or otherwise. Or to clarify: I don't believe in a 'trance state' or those common-sense-defying effects: loss of volition, hypnotic amnesia, anaesthesia, deafness, post-hypnotic suggestion, past-life regression etc. - the spooky stuff. Hypnotists have no skills beyond everyday powers of persuasion - and no more than the average person. Yet these can be as effective as the 'divine' powers of a guru for invoking, infecting and manipulating the belief and compliant behaviour of others. Anyone could do it. It matters not whether I use my own voice or an induction tape. Context is half of the effect - for the rest, an implicit assumption of authority and specialised knowledge on my part. Strip hypnosis of its popular connotations and silly ritual and what remains is commonplace and uncontroversial: focused attention, deep relaxation, imaginative engagement in a given task are no more than what they are. The 'hypnosis' label is redundant. The main determinant of whether people interpret their experience as 'hypnosis' is their conviction that what they are experiencing is hypnosis. Call it 'deep relaxation' and they will experience deep relaxation instead. And if the bloke in charge is a 'Master' supposedly 'revealing Knowledge', the subject will interpret whatever feelings of well-being show up in that context as 'Knowledge'. (Highly susceptibles will exhibit disturbing signs of subservience and self-loathing by kissing carpet and leaving wallet at the door.) The will to believe, to transcend the everyday by way of novel experience and to look for earthly St Christophers to carry you override any honest desire to examine or understand the ordinary mysteries of consciousness and emotion. For a believer to scrutinise the circumstances which give rise to their inner sensations, or draw comparisons with analogous experiences is beyond the pale. I would challenge any premie who offer 'it's about personal experience' by way of proof to explain the distinctions between a personal experience of 'hypnosis', 'deep relaxation' and 'meditation on the Word' - or a thousand other go-within paths and practices... Sigmund Freud said something interesting (in a career of much bullshit and myth-making!) when he observed that the experience of being hypnotised is like being 'in love'. I think he was quite astute here - spotted something about deep relaxation that is universal. Relax and focus enough, shut out the perceptual and cognitive overload and your 'heart' starts to twinkle. The serotonin flows, the synapses spark and your world takes on a rosy glow. And a fake hypnotist delivering his spiel, or a fake Master 'giving satsang' facilitates the worldly detachment process effectlvely enough. No magic involved, though no less enchanting for all that. Focus on the breath is hardly Maharaji's 'gift', nor is anything transmitted during his secret induction ritual (can people believe that in the twenty-first century?), any more than a hypnotist's snap of the fingers will induce hypnosis. But awareness of the breath is inevitable when you remove your focus from external and internal stressors. Those who achieve such moments return to the cradle (long lost eternal home?), and very nice too - if boring after about twenty minutes. Yes, boring and ultimately unfulfilling, since they never 'go deeper' or 'realise' their experience, for there is no deeper, and no realisation to arrive at. Why else would premies come here to chew the fat with sad losers when they have such an allegedly precious opportunity waiting in every breath... But if people experience benefits from that feeling, by whatever label, then what is the damage? Does any of this matter? Yes, it does matter. Suppose I were to package and promote a Self Hypnosis Procedure (call it 'SHP'), free of charge (but donations permissible) as a life-enhancing panacea. This would be a legal, potentially lucrative (if morally questionable) enterprise. But suppose I went one further and pronounced that: yes, SHP is yours to experience, but you won't receive it unless you first show 'understanding' - by means unspecified - and will then not work properly unless you come watch me on video thrice weekly and buy a satellite dish. Again, this would be legal, potentially lucrative but - surely - morally indefensible (even if I sincerely believed in my own methods, since they would involve my manipulation of others without any independent confirmation of my expertise or the efficacy my teachings from disinterested parties.) Then suppose I then threw in an implicit Creatonist world-view: that human beings were designed purely for this experience (- no, make that my experience), and should therefore abandon attachments and ambitions, even sideline family and friends in its pursuit. Then I added a messianic hook: that it was not only my own Grace or power that made the Self Hypnosis possible but also my express command which enables the world to turn. Or that once you have bought into my trip, a life of 'respect' and 'gratitude' are in order, expressible in unpaid labour and fancy goods. And suppose I warned that those who abandoned the path would crash and burn then turned a deaf ear to ex-followers now claiming my teachings were a mind-fuck. And, instead of listening to critics, attempted to silence them whilst denying past claims and directives... Legal? - Sure! Lucrative? - You bet! But morally...? At the very least I should have some explaining to do. And the people I had exploited - in good faith, or otherwise - and who may have given up a vast slice of their adult lives following my instructions to the letter would have every right to move heaven and earth to hold me to account for as long as I continued to tout the mirage to a willing and all-too-gullible public. Our collective will is powerful and shall triumph. Margie - and all the lawyers in the world - are powerless to resist. 'The glass is falling hour by hour, the glass will fall forever. But if you break the bloody glass You won't hold up the weather.'

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Date: Mon, Jul 24, 2000 at 14:38:21 (GMT) From: Loaf Email: None To: Nigel Subject: When the spell is broken... Message:

I think we should do it. This is the voice of the Mister Ron (Geaves) Just leave your clothes in a neat pile over there Next to mine. Trust me... I'm a medical man.

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Date: Mon, Jul 24, 2000 at 00:15:41 (GMT) From: Sir Dave Email: None To: Nigel Subject: When the spell is broken... Message:

Just because you've not experienced something, it doesn't mean it isn't true. I have experienced a deep hypnotic trance state and was actually surprised at how easily I was hypnotised, by a real hypnotherapist. I have been hypnotised a couple of times and went into a trance state that I didn't know was possible. I was sceptical before being hypnotised. What to do with the trance state is another matter and I'm not an advocate of past life regression or any other such parlour tricks. I have experienced some strange and unusual phenomena which I once poo pooed before actually experiencing them. As a racing cyclist I used to sometimes go into a state of elevation where I felt superhuman and went beyond my normal capabilities. As a hippie sitting in a circle with other hippies in St Ives, Cornwall I once had an unbelievable experience when we all held hands together in the circle. I felt a power akin to several thousand volts flowing from my hand holding partners, up my arms and into my body. I've also seen a flying saucer shaped spacecraft from another planet/dimension in Kent, where I live. I am naturally sceptical but also very interested and open minded about unusual or unexplained happenings. But you are quite right with your analysis of Maharaji. Actually, I never did think that Maharaji was very powerful as a person. I found him boring and usually felt uneasy in his presence. Most of the power within the cult was from the group itself.

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Date: Sun, Jul 23, 2000 at 23:27:23 (GMT) From: ham Email: None To: Nigel Subject: Spot on except for one small thing Message:

Great to have you back again Nige. Completely with you 98%, but I suspect there was a limit to the experiences you had in meditation. Those experiences can go deeper, not because of any flaw in your argument, but that the drugs/hormones that can be released are not just serotonin (ecstacy related & we all know the love that that can generate), but melatonin through the pineal gland (mescalin related), there is also an integral connection between dmt and serotonin. As anyone who has experienced dmt, or read about it knows, it's just about the most powerful psychedelic on the planet and makes pure acid look positively kindergarten. Under the influence of dmt, an experience of pure light bathed with a cosmic love is bog standard, amongst many other peculiar effects, such as loss of ego/self, no sense of time at all, or so slow, and almost no standard sense of space. It is a natural part of our biological inheritance, no externals needed, and is suspected of being the key component in NDE's. Bio-feedback mechanisms can be very powerful. While on the drug/hormone number, apart from alcohol, all of those drugs that are mood enhancing can be accessed directly through the brain, including also opiates and nicotine, naturally. But if you don't know this, very easy to project, as you so clearly state, some 'other' source, for these unexpected effects. The power of naivete or what, oh well it took thirty years for us to get there, but at least we got there! Are you watching the Susan Blackwell series on the brain, on Tuesdays? If you didn't see the first one it was fascinating, especially since brain/biological explanations for spiritual experiences is gonna be a key part of the series, wonderful stuff. And as she said at the end of the programme, explaining these experiences enhances not diminishes them.

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Date: Mon, Jul 24, 2000 at 17:45:29 (GMT) From: Nigel Email: fitzroy@liverpool.ac.uk To: ham Subject: Blackmore and Greenfield... Message:

Hi Ham, Just a quick one. I actually agree that altered-state experiennces do occur (and can do spontaneously) - and in reply to Sir D above, I was merely saying that whether these happen in a hypnotic or non-hypnotic situation, with or without drugs, there is not a shred of evidence (MRI scans or whatever) of a 'trance state' that is specifically hypnotic, and that the use of the term 'hynosis' (or 'Knowledge' etc.) tends to muddy the waters rather than clarify anything. Also, although I don't believe anything extraordinary happens when I run a hypnotic session, some people DO report all sorts of wonders - at about the same frequency as is found by 'proper' hypnotists who DO believe in the trance state. Whatever is happening is autogenerated and has nothing to do with the hypnosis rituals, though subjects will cheerfully report having been 'hypnotized', if 'hypnosis' is the context. (Where extraordinary claims about forgetting one's own name or immunity to pain etc. are concerned, there are some solid research findings to suggest a good deal of play-acting and downright lying goes on.) Yeah, I am aware that there are more neurotransmitters involved in inner bliss-out states than serotonin - and they can be predicted and generated in experimental conditions, such as the centrifuge experiments at that US air base. I think you (and Jerry below) may be confusing prof Susan Greenfield with Dr Susan Blackmore. Both are Brits, but Greenfield is a neurologist, and Blackmore a psychologist. But there is a lot of overlapping territory between them. SB has studied NDE's and OBE's, and the psychic illusions which are interpreted as paranormal experiences, and has also written quite a lot on temporal lobe seizures. I haven't seen the Greenfield programme yet, but I am very familiar with her writings on the brain. I am big fan of both. (have met Sue Blackmore - very nice person.)

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Date: Tues, Jul 25, 2000 at 00:39:43 (GMT) From: Sir Dave Email: None To: Nigel Subject: Blackmore and Greenfield... Message:

What are you up to Nigel? I have visions of you hypnotising a class full of people and then telling them they only think they're hypnotised. And I thought you were just a regular office worker or something. While I have been hypnotised very easily and gone into what people call a 'trance state', I was not particularly suggestable when in that state and it was more of a physical thing than a mental one. I felt completely relaxed physically and didn't want to move or do anything. I was more suggestable to some suggestions but they were only things which I would normally be suggestable to anyway and which I agreed with. I could not have been made to do something against my will nor would I have believed something I wouldn't normally. Regarding Susan Blackmore, I am sceptical about her and see her as a possible self publicist and little else. I have looked at much of her research and found it wanting in detail and clarity. Her explanation about how people could hallucinate UFOs by being influenced by electrical or magnetic fields left me very cold and it seemed utterly far fetched to me with no scientific basis whatsoever. I am not convinced by any of these so-called scientific explanations for unusual or unknown phenomena. The details are too sketchy for my liking. If a person feels some nice warm feeling if their brain is influenced by electrical fields, it doesn't mean that NDE or UFO experiencers are simply feeling the reasults of electrical fields on their brain. Yet Susan Blackmore seems too ready to tie up vastly different experiences together as one experience from a common cause. Too patchy for my liking.

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Date: Tues, Jul 25, 2000 at 12:10:37 (GMT) From: Nigel Email: None To: Sir Dave Subject: Sorry, Sir D, I must object to... Message:

... I have looked at much of her research and found it wanting in detail and clarity. Which research is lacking in detail and clarity? Sure, Sue Blackmore gets invited on to loads of Radio and TV progs and that is because she is an effective communicator, but I would hradly call her a 'media tart' - and there are very few skeptical commentators doing proper research into paranormal / altered states at least in this country (hard to get funding). She may be an automatic choice for many programmes, but I doubt she has an agent ringing round trying to get her gigs. Her books (apart form the one about meme theory, which I don't have much time for) and journal papers are ALL first class pieces of work, IMO. They certainly deserve more than outright dismissal, without a strong counter-argument being produced. (Most of her relevant research was carried out as an unknown entity, years before she ever appeared on the box.) BTW, Dave, I was looking for your excellent search engine which lets you scan the forum archives, but don't seem to be able to find it. Can you give us the URL. Thanks.

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Date: Tues, Jul 25, 2000 at 16:29:01 (GMT) From: Sir Dave Email: None To: Nigel Subject: I expected you to Message:

While I don't dispute that she's put a lot of effort into certain fields of research, it's her conclusions which I disagree with. The one which sticks in my mind was her experiment using magnetic fields on people's brains. I agree that she did come up with some remarkable results but her trying to marry these experiences from her experiments with other people's unusual experiences did seem far fetched and trying to stretch a point too much. I've found the American experiments with test pilots in centrifuges similar. The experiments produced some very interesting data on losing consciousness but then to try to take a giant leap and connect that data with NDE experinces did not gel, in my mind. The two experiences were too disimilar and the descriptions of the two different experiences were only slightly comparable. A bit like comparing snow with dry ice. Regarding the forum search engine, it's still a long way from being finished but click here to search the forum archives. I must make a point of adding more to it every week. Then it'll be finished by Christmas.

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Date: Wed, Jul 26, 2000 at 21:08:48 (GMT) From: Nigel Email: fitzroy@liverpool.ac.uk To: Sir Dave Subject: Thanks D. (nt) Message:

nt

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Date: Mon, Jul 24, 2000 at 19:02:44 (GMT) From: ham Email: None To: Nigel Subject: Blackmore and Greenfield... Message:

Sorry I didn't make myself explicit enough, it was just the one quote 'even if boring after twenty minutes'. I know myself that they can be transcendent for a lot longer than tqwenty minutes, regularly went into deep states that lasted for up to four hours or so, and carried on after in gentler versions, and not always that gentle, the rest of the day, and were still there the following morning. After three or four weeks they can get a bit too trippy. The only reason I bring this up is that I know there are premies out there who reached/reach similar states, who will think your argument doesn't apply to their experiences because of that one quote, otherwise 100% with you. In fact Nigel thought it was the best articulated and explicit description of the processes from that angle I've ever read, any published papers I could follow up? Re name mix up, thanks, I'm getting dyslexic about names, and purely names big time at the moment, nothing else just names. Very odd, it might be the enormous number of people I deal with at work now in VERY stressful conditions.

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Date: Tues, Jul 25, 2000 at 12:59:03 (GMT) From: Nigel Email: fitzroy@liverpool.ac.uk To: ham Subject: Hmm, you say the nicest things.. Message:

I don't think I ever 'transcended' for one hour - let alone four.. (but I guess, what you class as transcending will depend very much on what you were expecting or hoping for). But I reckon this illustrates the crucial importance of personal differences. I mean, each of our brains is unique, even though functionally similar, so inevitably you will get a broad spectrum of experiences. Which only emphasises the inappropriateness of packaging K as the universal 'answer' for everyone. Publications? If you mean my own, I have a couple of things published but nothing (yet) in this area. And the other stuff is way too boring to recommend. And I have an old paranormal belief research paper I keep meaning to submit to the journals one of these days. See if I can dig it out. But publications of others, probably the best semi-academic book on hypnosis is 'Hypnosis, Compliance and Belief' (1981) by Graham Wagstaff. Or anything by him, X. Barber or Nick Spanos, for starters. But disappointing reading for anyone hoping for past-life-regression and other wacky stuff.

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Date: Mon, Jul 24, 2000 at 17:49:37 (GMT) From: Nigel Email: fitzroy@liverpool.ac.uk To: Nigel Subject: PS: Ham, VP, JfT, Katie and others.. Message:

Thanks to some fiendish lila or other, my uni computer has exploded and awaits a new part. In the meantime, all your recent emails are inaccessible, but I should be able to reply to anyone who has mailed me lately - probably next week.

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Date: Mon, Jul 24, 2000 at 16:26:21 (GMT) From: Jerry Email: None To: ham Subject: Spot on except for one small thing Message:

Are you watching the Susan Blackwell series on the brain, on Tuesdays? If you didn't see the first one it was fascinating, especially since brain/biological explanations for spiritual experiences is gonna be a key part of the series, wonderful stuff. And as she said at the end of the programme, explaining these experiences enhances not diminishes them. Is Susan Blackwell a Brit, too? Jeez, don't we have anybody on this side of the pond besides that dork, Gould? Well, we do have Pinker, and I guess he's pretty cool. About spiritual experiences, isn't part of their allure that they provide the conviction you've touched infinity, that God is real? How does Blackwell suppose wiping that out with a purely materialistic explanation enhances the experience? I can see where a skeptic would appreciate a scientific explanation for spiritual experiences, but as has been proven, time and again, right here on very own forum -- believers, new agers, spiritualists, and such don't want to hear about it. Sounds like an interesting show. I think I'll give the Big M a call to see if I can borrow his jet and fly on over. He's a pretty agreeable chap, or so I hear (at least, when he's not bogarting joints), so maybe I'll see you next Tuesday. Heh, heh.

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Date: Mon, Jul 24, 2000 at 18:46:27 (GMT) From: ham Email: None To: Jerry Subject: The beauty of truth in the clear light of day Message:

Are you watching the Susan Blackwell series on the brain, on Tuesdays? If you didn't see the first one it was fascinating, especially since brain/biological explanations for spiritual experiences is gonna be a key part of the series, wonderful stuff. And as she said at the end of the programme, explaining these experiences enhances not diminishes them. God I'm cracking up at the moment with names, it's Susan Greenfield, as Nigel pointed out. Is Susan Blackwell a Brit, too? Jeez, don't we have anybody on this side of the pond besides that dork, Gould? Well, we do have Pinker, and I guess he's pretty cool. About spiritual experiences, isn't part of their allure that they provide the conviction you've touched infinity, that God is real? How does Blackwell suppose wiping that out with a purely materialistic explanation enhances the experience? I can see where a skeptic would appreciate a scientific explanation for spiritual experiences, but as has been proven, time and again, right here on very own forum -- believers, new agers, spiritualists, and such don't want to hear about it. I think her argument is that understanding enhances the experience for a number of reasons. When explanations are given they don't explain away the experiences, because of the elegance of how they work. Whereas before it was all guesswork, when you see the intricacies and realize the processe that lead up to them, even if that is speculative, it's like you are in closer to them. In the way that a magnifying glass can help you to glory in patterns, trhe beauty of etc. And also the truth is always luminous in a way that speculation isn't, around any topic. Like a crisp morning light where everything is sharpened rather than blurred. Now obviously for believers who need the emotional crutch of faith and hope to justify, it's initially threatening, but once past that point the isness of it all becomes more glorious because you have ditched the speculation and fuzziness of it all, and are then even more in contact. That journey has been my journey, and the same can be true for people leaving gm, or any other conceptual crutvh. The ironic thing is that this was our reason for getting involved apart from the over sensitivity and vulnerability around our experience of the world. Always remember Anth saying how when he left he started to experience the exhilaration and liberation he joined for in the first place. Ironic that the removal of concepts happens after you leave, and not before when you constantly need to reaffirm the concepts, such is the inverted wonder of cult thinking! Sounds like an interesting show. I think I'll give the Big M a call to see if I can borrow his jet and fly on over. He's a pretty agreeable chap, or so I hear (at least, when he's not bogarting joints), so maybe I'll see you next Tuesday. Heh, heh. That would be wonderful, I'd love to meet ya, I regularlyt get this fantasy of putting on a rave/house do, with all of these gorgeous exes there, from all over the world. Just know it would be truly wild, and a complete celebration. We're the lucky ones who survived, and REALLY appreciate living, ie NO CRUTCHES!! Yet again ironic or what! Funnily enough it was my ex-wife, who is still a premie, who told me about it!! She knows I love that stuff, as she does herself, but thewn she sees it as increasing her sense of wonder, but doesn't deal with the contradictions. I still have hope for her that she'll break free, but it's unlikely. She's videoing the series, I'll try and get ya a copy translated into your format, you'd love it, truly purrfect! Still got you down for my double tape mix, but don't wait up, ham time being what it is, first two attempts using my new second shit deck have been crap, but I'll get there soon. Are the tapes still holding up?

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Date: Mon, Jul 24, 2000 at 19:29:32 (GMT) From: Jerry Email: None To: ham Subject: The beauty of truth in the clear light of day Message:

I 'lent' the tapes to my girlfriend. Haven't seen them since, along with some of my favorite albums. Oh, well. She thinks they're great, too. You're right about the luminosity of truth. But still, I wonder if along with our need for truth there isn't a need for immortality, as well. That's where faith in God comes in. It reassures us that all is not in vain, that death is not the end. I think even skeptics on the deepest levels have a hard time accepting that this is it. We might be genetically programmed to deny the finality of death, as much as reason tells us this is probably so. This is why I question if Greenfield is correct in her assertion that explaining spiritual experience, scientifically, enhances them. Your argument is a good one, though.

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