Forum V: Archive
Compiled: Wed, Aug 02, 2000 at 01:36:49 (GMT)
From: Jul 20, 2000 To: Jul 28, 2000 Page: 2 Of: 5


Nigel -:- Squaring the Triangle... -:- Sun, Jul 23, 2000 at 21:52:29 (GMT)
__ G -:- Impossible Triangle -:- Sun, Jul 23, 2000 at 22:46:42 (GMT)
__ __ Zelda -:- Nigel-still thinking this through NT -:- Mon, Jul 24, 2000 at 03:46:44 (GMT)

Jim -:- Does anonymity encourage 'MELification'? -:- Sun, Jul 23, 2000 at 19:34:57 (GMT)
__ Mel Bourne -:- Does anonymity encourage 'MELification'? -:- Mon, Jul 24, 2000 at 12:36:24 (GMT)
__ __ Jim -:- Harrassment you fear is from your own cult, Mel -:- Mon, Jul 24, 2000 at 15:50:05 (GMT)
__ __ __ Mel Bourne -:- 'Harrassment you fear is from your own cult'-is it -:- Tues, Jul 25, 2000 at 06:03:54 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Jim -:- Bullshit, Mel -:- Tues, Jul 25, 2000 at 13:21:49 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Mel Bourne -:- No bullshit, Mel -:- Wed, Jul 26, 2000 at 10:47:57 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Jim -:- Very, VERY funny -:- Wed, Jul 26, 2000 at 15:40:40 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ gErRy -:- Mel, don't show this to your wife... -:- Tues, Jul 25, 2000 at 14:59:16 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Mel Bourne -:- Mel, don't show this to your wife... -:- Wed, Jul 26, 2000 at 10:29:35 (GMT)
__ __ __ Jim -:- Here's a perfect example re Mel -:- Mon, Jul 24, 2000 at 16:22:34 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Jim -:- Sorry, correction again -:- Mon, Jul 24, 2000 at 16:24:09 (GMT)
__ __ PCH -:- to explain Jim's point further... -:- Mon, Jul 24, 2000 at 15:02:53 (GMT)
__ __ __ Jim -:- You're right to some extent -:- Mon, Jul 24, 2000 at 15:54:30 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Jim -:- correction -:- Mon, Jul 24, 2000 at 16:00:09 (GMT)
__ JohnT -:- A technical fix in the long term? -:- Mon, Jul 24, 2000 at 12:33:55 (GMT)
__ __ ham -:- Wicked concept, love it -:- Mon, Jul 24, 2000 at 19:06:55 (GMT)
__ __ Selene -:- Interesting JohnT -:- Mon, Jul 24, 2000 at 18:48:10 (GMT)
__ __ Jim -:- What an interesting idea! -:- Mon, Jul 24, 2000 at 16:07:56 (GMT)
__ Selene -:- and Katie says Brian is not tracking IP's -:- Mon, Jul 24, 2000 at 00:02:46 (GMT)
__ __ Katie -:- Selene, the FA's do track IP's -:- Mon, Jul 24, 2000 at 00:16:45 (GMT)
__ __ __ Selene -:- ok ok Katie -:- Mon, Jul 24, 2000 at 05:00:09 (GMT)
__ Nigel -:- I think Mel serves a very useful purpose... -:- Sun, Jul 23, 2000 at 22:29:32 (GMT)
__ __ Jim -:- That purpose no longer exists -:- Mon, Jul 24, 2000 at 06:21:13 (GMT)
__ __ __ SB -:- Jim, what do you think? -:- Mon, Jul 24, 2000 at 12:16:28 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Jim -:- Yes, for sure use your real name! -:- Mon, Jul 24, 2000 at 15:59:08 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Joey -:- Yes, for sure use your real name! -:- Tues, Jul 25, 2000 at 07:40:50 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Selene -:- the excuses for anonymity are endless -:- Mon, Jul 24, 2000 at 17:25:48 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Jim -:- Yes, they are -:- Tues, Jul 25, 2000 at 15:06:43 (GMT)
__ __ Nigel -:- And another thing... -:- Sun, Jul 23, 2000 at 22:54:24 (GMT)
__ __ __ Katie -:- And another thing... -:- Mon, Jul 24, 2000 at 01:14:58 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Jim -:- Are you serious, Katie? -:- Tues, Jul 25, 2000 at 14:01:41 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Katie -:- Are you serious, Katie? -:- Wed, Jul 26, 2000 at 01:57:49 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Jim -:- I'm sorry, Katie, that's hopelessly naive -:- Wed, Jul 26, 2000 at 02:38:36 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Joe -:- God Jim, Get a Grip!!! -:- Wed, Jul 26, 2000 at 21:44:17 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Jim -:- God Jim, Get a Grip!!! -:- Wed, Jul 26, 2000 at 23:04:36 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Joe -:- Thanks for being reasonable, Jim -:- Wed, Jul 26, 2000 at 23:26:27 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Joe -:- And another thing... -:- Mon, Jul 24, 2000 at 17:21:30 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Jim -:- Sure it's fun but is it worth it? -:- Tues, Jul 25, 2000 at 02:33:59 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Jerry -:- And another thing... -:- Mon, Jul 24, 2000 at 17:14:00 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Selene -:- If their purpose on here is only to confuse -:- Mon, Jul 24, 2000 at 18:43:14 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Jerry -:- If their purpose on here is only to confuse -:- Mon, Jul 24, 2000 at 19:45:56 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Selene -:- so stupid it can't be stupid -:- Mon, Jul 24, 2000 at 20:04:42 (GMT)
__ P-man -:- Does anonymity encourage 'MELification'? -:- Sun, Jul 23, 2000 at 20:24:28 (GMT)
__ __ Jim -:- Does anonymity encourage 'MELification'? -:- Sun, Jul 23, 2000 at 20:48:29 (GMT)
__ __ Joey -:- Good points P-Man -:- Sun, Jul 23, 2000 at 20:38:29 (GMT)
__ __ __ Selene -:- exactly -:- Sun, Jul 23, 2000 at 23:45:06 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Joey -:- exactly -:- Mon, Jul 24, 2000 at 02:20:57 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Selene -:- ouch... -:- Mon, Jul 24, 2000 at 05:30:44 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Katie -:- you guys need an exorcism! (nt) -:- Mon, Jul 24, 2000 at 11:18:07 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Joey -:- Re: you guys need an exorcism! -:- Mon, Jul 24, 2000 at 13:09:59 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Katie -:- I meant your COMPUTER, Joey, not YOU :) -:- Mon, Jul 24, 2000 at 15:19:04 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Selene -:- Left it at work -:- Mon, Jul 24, 2000 at 17:16:04 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ ps to Joey -:- oh but make a backup first. I do hahaha nt -:- Mon, Jul 24, 2000 at 06:12:29 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Katie -:- anonymity and personal boundaries -:- Mon, Jul 24, 2000 at 00:27:21 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Selene -:- anonymity and personal boundaries -:- Mon, Jul 24, 2000 at 02:18:30 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ SB -:- anonymity and personal boundaries -:- Mon, Jul 24, 2000 at 02:46:33 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Selene -:- that is some of what I mean -:- Mon, Jul 24, 2000 at 03:45:13 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ SB -:- I see your point -:- Mon, Jul 24, 2000 at 12:34:27 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Selene -:- you did see my point -:- Mon, Jul 24, 2000 at 19:36:07 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ sb -:- you did see my point (ot) -:- Tues, Jul 25, 2000 at 01:02:32 (GMT)
__ Jim -:- Look at '49's posts to Joe -- I rest my case (nt) -:- Sun, Jul 23, 2000 at 19:45:54 (GMT)
__ __ JohnT -:- Is 49 for real? -:- Sun, Jul 23, 2000 at 20:08:22 (GMT)
__ __ __ Selene -:- freedom from fantasy -:- Mon, Jul 24, 2000 at 06:27:19 (GMT)

Salam -:- 129 -:- Sun, Jul 23, 2000 at 17:38:27 (GMT)
__ salam -:- oops, sorry about the link..nt -:- Sun, Jul 23, 2000 at 17:41:05 (GMT)

Jean-Michel -:- Gulfstream IV numbers are as follows: N41PR -:- Sun, Jul 23, 2000 at 17:31:50 (GMT)
__ Jean-Michel -:- Where's the link to that jets' database ? -:- Mon, Jul 24, 2000 at 08:32:20 (GMT)
__ bill -:- Gulfstream IV numbers are as follows: N41PR -:- Sun, Jul 23, 2000 at 18:13:45 (GMT)
__ __ Jean-Michel -:- Here's a link -:- Mon, Jul 24, 2000 at 10:23:08 (GMT)
__ __ __ cq -:- And here's a result: -:- Mon, Jul 24, 2000 at 11:53:14 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Jean-Michel -:- READ THIS !! No doubts anymore !! -:- Mon, Jul 24, 2000 at 17:06:54 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ cq -:- Just got your post, J-M! -:- Tues, Jul 25, 2000 at 17:30:47 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ cq -:- and there's more! -:- Tues, Jul 25, 2000 at 17:57:17 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ FYI -:- 11900 Biscayne is Amtext Bldg. nt -:- Mon, Jul 24, 2000 at 21:48:28 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ SB -:- YES! -:- Mon, Jul 24, 2000 at 19:41:15 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Jean-Michel -:- and another interesting hint -:- Mon, Jul 24, 2000 at 14:08:11 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Jean-Michel -:- What would be interesting to know -:- Mon, Jul 24, 2000 at 13:21:46 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Jean-Michel -:- And here's a result: -:- Mon, Jul 24, 2000 at 13:17:11 (GMT)

hamzen -:- The Religions -:- Sun, Jul 23, 2000 at 16:42:45 (GMT)
__ Selene -:- 70's : no shit happens but for me; -:- Tues, Jul 25, 2000 at 01:55:23 (GMT)
__ Gooberism: -:- That's some good shit, dude, don't bogart it... -:- Mon, Jul 24, 2000 at 16:02:10 (GMT)
__ __ Jerry -:- That's a good one, heh, heh... -:- Tues, Jul 25, 2000 at 00:53:59 (GMT)
__ __ Jim -:- 'I am the source of shit in this world!' (nt) -:- Mon, Jul 24, 2000 at 16:27:42 (GMT)
__ Jerry -:- The Religions -:- Sun, Jul 23, 2000 at 19:51:54 (GMT)
__ __ Selene -:- hey Jerry just realized I said the same thing -:- Tues, Jul 25, 2000 at 03:34:12 (GMT)
__ __ sb -:- good one! (nt) -:- Mon, Jul 24, 2000 at 01:29:22 (GMT)
__ bill -:- The Religions -:- Sun, Jul 23, 2000 at 18:16:47 (GMT)
__ Stonor - Shit is in your -:- mind; deny it, and it doesn't exist! (NT) -:- Sun, Jul 23, 2000 at 18:16:32 (GMT)
__ Hal -:- Let's roll this shit and smoke it ! nt -:- Sun, Jul 23, 2000 at 17:38:07 (GMT)
__ __ Paul -:- ex-premies: Oh shit! -:- Mon, Jul 24, 2000 at 15:53:37 (GMT)
__ SB -:- Shit is inside of you. (nt) -:- Sun, Jul 23, 2000 at 16:43:54 (GMT)

webtravlerand -:- does mahara ji have a relationship with the fbi? -:- Sun, Jul 23, 2000 at 16:11:01 (GMT)
__ webtravlerand -:- missing the 2000 program in alexandria virginia -:- Sun, Jul 23, 2000 at 19:54:58 (GMT)
__ hamzen -:- Rumour had it he loved Reagan (nt) -:- Sun, Jul 23, 2000 at 16:44:25 (GMT)
__ __ Joe -:- Is that love in the Biblical sense? (nt) -:- Mon, Jul 24, 2000 at 01:47:55 (GMT)
__ __ __ ham -:- You're cracking me up at the moment! :) -:- Mon, Jul 24, 2000 at 06:51:24 (GMT)
__ __ Salam -:- Maybe he works for the Indian mafia..nt -:- Sun, Jul 23, 2000 at 16:49:48 (GMT)

SB -:- cocky Humpty Dumpty is a SPAMMER!! -:- Sun, Jul 23, 2000 at 14:22:13 (GMT)
__ Salam -:- Do not miss the big event if you are in Vensuela, -:- Sun, Jul 23, 2000 at 16:46:26 (GMT)
__ __ SB -:- maharaji shows desperation!! -:- Sun, Jul 23, 2000 at 17:16:37 (GMT)
__ __ __ Salam -:- SB, you are missing the point, you should have -:- Sun, Jul 23, 2000 at 17:26:48 (GMT)
__ The Fork and the Spoon -:- cocky Humpty Dumpty is a SPAMMER!! -:- Sun, Jul 23, 2000 at 15:00:30 (GMT)
__ __ Salam -:- Forkey, I do not know what you want or after, but -:- Sun, Jul 23, 2000 at 16:42:34 (GMT)
__ __ __ Fork and Spoon -:- Dear me that smells like a THREAT!! -:- Mon, Jul 24, 2000 at 01:28:49 (GMT)

Sir David -:- A cocky Humpty Dumpty -:- Sun, Jul 23, 2000 at 09:27:54 (GMT)

Mel Bourne -:- Sorry VP - a late answer to your question -:- Sun, Jul 23, 2000 at 03:01:58 (GMT)
__ hamzen -:- Didn't you see the bumff that went out -:- Sun, Jul 23, 2000 at 03:58:05 (GMT)
__ __ Mel Bourne -:- Didn't you see the bumff that went out -:- Sun, Jul 23, 2000 at 09:36:10 (GMT)
__ __ __ SB -:- Stubborn Denial -:- Sun, Jul 23, 2000 at 11:53:53 (GMT)
__ __ __ hamzen -:- Well at least you're honest about your denial -:- Sun, Jul 23, 2000 at 11:46:56 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Mel Bourne -:- Well at least you're honest about your denial ... -:- Mon, Jul 24, 2000 at 11:32:27 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ hamzen -:- Blimey, a number of posts and still talking -:- Tues, Jul 25, 2000 at 00:47:17 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Mel Bourne -:- Blimey, a number of posts and still talking -:- Tues, Jul 25, 2000 at 07:43:01 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ hamzen -:- And last but definitely not least -:- Tues, Jul 25, 2000 at 23:42:06 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Mel Bourne -:- And last but definitely not least -:- Wed, Jul 26, 2000 at 11:00:37 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Jethro -:- And last but definitely not least -:- Wed, Jul 26, 2000 at 17:21:44 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Jim -:- Oh yeah, good point, Mel -- you got him there! -:- Wed, Jul 26, 2000 at 16:09:36 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Jim -:- Astounding.... Disgusting and astounding -:- Tues, Jul 25, 2000 at 13:44:54 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Mel Bourne -:- Astounding.... Disgusting and astounding -:- Wed, Jul 26, 2000 at 10:52:03 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ JohnT -:- ... smug and filthy stinking thinking (nt) -:- Tues, Jul 25, 2000 at 21:47:00 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Mel Bourne -:- ... honest about your denial ...(take 2) -:- Mon, Jul 24, 2000 at 11:56:41 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ JohnT -:- Why ? -:- Wed, Jul 26, 2000 at 13:02:20 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Jim -:- Way to go, Ham! (nt) -:- Sun, Jul 23, 2000 at 14:14:58 (GMT)

Jerry -:- 'Forget about the rest' -:- Sat, Jul 22, 2000 at 23:49:13 (GMT)
__ Shroomananda -:- He never asked me to stop thinking, Jerry! -:- Sun, Jul 23, 2000 at 07:28:50 (GMT)
__ __ Jerry -:- He never asked me to stop thinking, Jerry! -:- Sun, Jul 23, 2000 at 13:10:50 (GMT)
__ __ __ Shroomananda -:- If someone gave you a cold pure glass of water -:- Sun, Jul 23, 2000 at 23:26:54 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Katie -:- This is another 'ends justify means' statement -:- Mon, Jul 24, 2000 at 11:15:59 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Sir Dave -:- Maharaji's not giving you the water -:- Mon, Jul 24, 2000 at 00:51:36 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ G -:- If someone gave you a cold pure glass of water -:- Sun, Jul 23, 2000 at 23:58:53 (GMT)
__ __ Marolyn -:- Yes he did told you not to think: bad liar!! (nt) -:- Sun, Jul 23, 2000 at 11:23:47 (GMT)
__ __ JohnT -:- ... you mean you stopped ON YOUR OWN!! (nt) -:- Sun, Jul 23, 2000 at 08:19:24 (GMT)
__ __ Selene -:- you are so obvious -:- Sun, Jul 23, 2000 at 07:38:34 (GMT)
__ __ __ Shroomananda -:- You'll never know, Selene! NT -:- Sun, Jul 23, 2000 at 23:30:23 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Katie -:- Can't believe you're saying this to Selene! -:- Mon, Jul 24, 2000 at 01:19:44 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Selene -:- don't overestimate me Ace. -:- Mon, Jul 24, 2000 at 02:20:52 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Selene -:- isn't that a bit arrogant? I'm sure I could -:- Sun, Jul 23, 2000 at 23:49:00 (GMT)
__ Mel Bourne -:- 'Forget about the rest' -:- Sun, Jul 23, 2000 at 02:20:50 (GMT)
__ __ Jerry -:- 'Forget about the rest' -:- Sun, Jul 23, 2000 at 13:15:15 (GMT)
__ __ JohnT -:- Mel Bourne 'Forgets about thinking' -:- Sun, Jul 23, 2000 at 08:32:40 (GMT)
__ __ __ Mel Bourne -:- Mel Bourne 'Forgets about thinking' -:- Sun, Jul 23, 2000 at 09:51:02 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ JohnT -:- Mel Bourne forgets about k and m -:- Sun, Jul 23, 2000 at 18:46:49 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ hamzen -:- Mel Bourne 'Forgets about thinking' -:- Sun, Jul 23, 2000 at 11:49:01 (GMT)
__ buzz -:- 'Forget about the rest' -:- Sun, Jul 23, 2000 at 00:37:16 (GMT)

Peter Paul -:- can I post here ? -:- Sat, Jul 22, 2000 at 22:19:14 (GMT)
__ Tonette -:- only if you're not die hard premie -:- Sun, Jul 23, 2000 at 05:01:34 (GMT)
__ __ Joey -:- only if you're not die hard premie -:- Sun, Jul 23, 2000 at 05:27:28 (GMT)
__ __ __ Tonete -:- True but... -:- Sun, Jul 23, 2000 at 05:40:56 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Joey -:- True but... -:- Sun, Jul 23, 2000 at 06:12:43 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Sir Dave (Secret Agent) -:- True but... the only reason that -:- Sun, Jul 23, 2000 at 06:59:29 (GMT)
__ Salam -:- can I post here ? -:- Sun, Jul 23, 2000 at 01:31:09 (GMT)
__ Marianne -:- can I post here ? -:- Sat, Jul 22, 2000 at 23:00:44 (GMT)
__ __ Selene -:- Why are you asking? -:- Sat, Jul 22, 2000 at 23:43:56 (GMT)
__ __ __ Marianne -:- Why are you asking? -:- Sun, Jul 23, 2000 at 04:24:03 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Selene -:- geez Marianne take a chill pill -:- Sun, Jul 23, 2000 at 04:30:46 (GMT)


Date: Sun, Jul 23, 2000 at 21:52:29 (GMT)
From: Nigel
Email: fitzroy@liverpool.ac.uk
To: Everyone
Subject: Squaring the Triangle...
Message:
Hi!

The Penrose 'Impossible Triangle' is a well-known visual illusion wherein three straight bars (rectangular in cross section) are conjoined to form a triangle. Each side has a plausible joint with its neighbouring sides. But taken as a whole the 2D figure could not exist in three dimensions. If you tried to build one from Penrose's illustration, you could assemble any two sides but the third would prove impossible.

The Premie's Impossible Triangle involves three personal attributes:

a) Intelligence
b) Honesty
c) Unwavering faith in the Master

Pick any one of the above traits if you think it applies to you. - Hell, treat yourself and pick two. But three is a definite no-no. If you tried to build a premie from M's teachings, you could assemble any two attributes but the third would prove impossible.

This is a harsh judgement, perhaps. For a start, I would now have to concede that as a premie I was either unintelligent or dishonest since I will shamefully admit my faith was unwavering. And as a premie I would no more have accepted either slur on my saintliness than I would right now.

But the boy-god works in mysterious ways his woodwork to perform…

Yes I was probably no less intelligent then than now - assuming I am (?) - but I used that intelligence dishonestly. Instead of arriving at intelligent conclusions from my experiences, I would bend the perceived world into interesting shapes so it would fit the received cult wisdom, ie. I used to rationalise.

('Hmm, although I feel miserable and desolate after these months of one-pointed practice of Knowledge, that must just be my mind getting in the way. Failing to see Maharaji's lila. The real experience is up around the corner if I hang on in there and rededicate with every breath…')

Rationalisation requires mental gymnastics - and most cult initiates were well-educated and hence good rationalisers - but such abuse of intelligence is dishonest.

And I was probably no less naturally honest then than I am now - assuming I am (?) but I applied that honesty without sound judgement. Instead of reporting to others what I knew to be true, I would tell them what I believed or felt to be true as if it were irrefutable. ie., honesty became deluded sincerity.

('I know for sure that this experience is my inner connection with Maharaji. You only have to look at his picture. I know that to feel his Knowledge happening inside is the only reason Maharaji even put us here on this planet. To rediscover and recognise Him. Everything else is a waste of this precious life.')

A sincere desire to share your truth - and most cult initiates enjoyed an orthodox religious upbringing and were thus well-primed - leads to stupid pronouncements, however honest your intentions.

Every post to this forum - from premie or ex, you will notice - obeys this two-out-of-three rule (or zero-out-of-three, or one-out of-three). Examine a few posts at random and see what you think…

You would have to be omnipotent do the impossible and score three out of three, and in this respect, M too is impotent.

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Date: Sun, Jul 23, 2000 at 22:46:42 (GMT)
From: G
Email: None
To: Nigel
Subject: Impossible Triangle
Message:
Good post. In order to construct this triangle, one or more of the following must be bent or lacking a) Intelligence b) Honesty c) Unwavering faith in the Master, sometimes all three. Sometimes a premie will even convince themself that they have unwavering faith in 'the Master' when they don't, so that they can, for whatever reason, listen to him with less conflict. Quite a slight of mind is involved. This is not to say that premies are unintelligent or dishonest in all aspects of their lives, but when it comes to having unwavering faith in 'the Master', it is required. With the rationalisations of this revisionism going on, it's glaringly evident. Now a premie might say 'Oh, but in Maharaji's world, this triangle is possible, because what seems stupid or dishonest or unfaithful really isn't because it's in a space where the logic of 'the mind' doesn't apply and bent is straight and straight is bent.', something silly like that. But that's just another rationalisation.
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Date: Mon, Jul 24, 2000 at 03:46:44 (GMT)
From: Zelda
Email: None
To: Nigel
Subject: Nigel-still thinking this through NT
Message:
NT
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Date: Sun, Jul 23, 2000 at 19:34:57 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: Does anonymity encourage 'MELification'?
Message:
Picking up on the discussion below regarding what I guess has become a bit of a pet peeve for me, anonymity, I want to talk about Mel.

First, remember, there is no Mel Bourne. As most realize, Mel is an Aussie premie who posts under a 'pun name' derived from the Australian city of Melbourne. He uses this fake name because when he found the forum it was filled with anonymous posters, just like today. We'll never know if Mel might have posted under his own name if, say, that was the norm. Maybe yes, maybe no. What we do know is that Mel picked up on the generally anonymous nature of the forum and joined in. If there were any hard issues concerning his speaking out about his cult publically, Mel sidestepped them easily, all with the assistance of the forum.

So now, a couple of years later, the Mel phenomenon continues. We have a masked poster who, in classic premie fashion, practises gross revisionism and turns logic on its head at every turn. Nothing he says is in good faith. Rather he engages in a certain melifides that one simply learns over time can never be taken seriously. Mel is a mirage, an artifice. In truth, there is no Mel and no one knows that better than the cowardly premie sniping at us from behind the Mel mask.

Now, here's what I wonder: would this Melification have developed if this guy had been forced to post under his real name? I'm inclined to think not. For one thing, this premie might never have posted anything here if he knew that the cult knew he was doing so. There's every reason to believe that any premie posting here under his own name might expect some contact at some point from cult officials. Has CD ever heard from EV? We know that Mili did when he and Harlan had their site. They were shut down. At least their premie forum was. CD is such a weird cat it's hard to tell what's ever happened with, to or from him. But it's a good question. Mel might never have even started here if he had to do so as a real person.

Anonymity has allowed Mel the luxury of lying without reservation about his own background circumstances, before and after becoming a premie. No one who knew him then or now can take him to task for anything he says. He can say he lived in the ashram for years and loved every minute of it and, even if he was a notoriously morose, despondent fucker there no one can say so. Mel's personal history is as fake as the cult's for what it matters. It's in his hands and that makes it suspect.

It's like what happened with Deputy Dog. If only I hadn't promised Dog I wouldn't reveal his identity! Here's a guy who was a complete fence-sitter in terms of trusting Maharaji at all. If Dog hadn't been able to post anonymously, you'd likely have heard from several of his former fellow community members giving him shit in several respects. And Dog, like Mel, might have thought twice before making some of his more outlandishly specious comments just for that reason. As it is, people like Dog and Mel revel in their shamlessness. They don't have to worry about any reality-checks from anywhere. No long-time friend challenging them about some particularly stupid thing they've said here. No, anonymity ensures that that ain't going to happen.

So, perhaps Mel would not have posted all the spurious tripe he has over time. Would that have been a good thing or bad? Personally, while I'm well aware of the masochistic entertainment value of being lied to by premies and the cautionary tale their twisted attitudes offer, I'm not convinced that all this Melness is a good thing for any of us. What it is is downright ugly. So how much ugliness do we need here. Isn't the simple truth ugly enough? Do we actually have to encourage its production? You know, there once was a point where we needed these premie lies to prove something. But now we have the Lord himself denying -- directly for our very own benefit and in specific response to our accusations -- that he ever called himself God or acted accordingly. We don't need this premie bullshit anymore. Maharaji's trumped them all.

I don't know. I can't help but think it would be a really cool step if we shook off this anonymity thing wherever possible. If it means risking a few fake relationships, is that too great a price to pay for truth? I don't know. Premies talk about free speech, blah, blah, blah. But don't forget, even newspapers won't publish your letters unless you put your proper name to them. And city council won't let you address it unless you state your name and address. There are no 'X's or 'Mel Bourne's or 'Deputy Dogs' at these meetings. Or, if they're there, they're sitting there listening, wondering if and when they'd have the courage to speak out themselves and what, if they do, they'd possibly say. And that, in my books, is a good thing.

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Date: Mon, Jul 24, 2000 at 12:36:24 (GMT)
From: Mel Bourne
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Does anonymity encourage 'MELification'?
Message:
Jim

I am anonymous for one basic reason, I am not interested in subjecting myself or my family to any kind of direct harrasment if people knew who I was.

Mel

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Date: Mon, Jul 24, 2000 at 15:50:05 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Mel Bourne
Subject: Harrassment you fear is from your own cult, Mel
Message:
Honestly, Mel, do you think Maharaji would be pleased with you if he knew you were posting here as 'Mel Bourne'? How about the other premies?

Sorry, dude, the only harrassment you could ever expect would be from the cult side. All the more reason why you shouldn't be allowed to post anonymously, if you ask me.

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Date: Tues, Jul 25, 2000 at 06:03:54 (GMT)
From: Mel Bourne
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: 'Harrassment you fear is from your own cult'-is it
Message:
Jim

You must remember the reception I got when I first started posting here, obscenities and abuse in
HUGE
HTML from Gerry and others.My wife (not a premie) was completely freaked out reading some of those posts (as was I).

Being new to the Forum, I was not expecting that kind of reaction so I was quite shocked and found it extremely threatening and intimidating, which was the obvious intent. I believe that it would have been very foolish to publish my name and address in the light of that type of response, and I still do. (my email tends to be interesting too)

You're right, though, I suspect that there are those on both sides of the fence who may intensely disagree with what I have to say, and dealing with dispossessed, disadvantaged (and sometimes deranged)people in my work, I never underestimate the inherent capacity for violence. Considering the volatility of the subject matter here, I simply do not wish to expose myself or my family unnecessarily, it's really that simple.

Mel

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Date: Tues, Jul 25, 2000 at 13:21:49 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Mel Bourne
Subject: Bullshit, Mel
Message:
Sorry, Mel, I don't buy it. The real risk you have in coming out has nothing to do with any ex harrassing you. There are laws and internet protocols and even just simple group pressure here to protect you in any event.

No, the real threat you face, the one you typically avoided commenting on, is the threat of criticism and sanction from your fellow cult members and leader. Talk about that for a bit, will you, Mel. Tell me, please, if it's not true that you would not have conceded the similiar appearances, such as they exist, between the Hare Krishnas and EV if Maharaji knew that was you talking.

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Date: Wed, Jul 26, 2000 at 10:47:57 (GMT)
From: Mel Bourne
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: No bullshit, Mel
Message:
Hi Jim

Sorry, Mel, I don't buy it.....

That's OK Jim, I don't expect you to, never the less...

Tell me, please, if it's not true that you would not have conceded the similiar appearances, such as they exist, between the Hare Krishnas and EV if Maharaji knew that was you talking.

Why not? The proposition wasn't unreasonable, it referred to an appearance to the 'outsider' and doesn't in any way invalidate what Maharaji's doing or the value of Knowledge, nor does it intend to. Actually the 'literal' appearance, of course, bears no similarity at all, premies don't shave their heads, wear strange clothes and chant in the street for their experience, do they?

Anyway, I'm sure that Maharaji and other premies wouldn't be too phased these days by these conversational points, they're not nearly as paranoid as you like to make out.

Mel

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Date: Wed, Jul 26, 2000 at 15:40:40 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Mel Bourne
Subject: Very, VERY funny
Message:
Well your word means nothing. You're the last person I'd expect to fairly comment on anything and this is no exception. I say that it's patently obvious that your concession about the apparent similarities between you guys and Hare Krishnas would never have been been made if Maharaji knew you were posting here. And you lie and say otherwise. What's new about that?

As for the cult not being as paranoid as we might imagine. Perhaps you'd like to tell us just how paranoid it really is? You might want to discuss the fact that EV won't even answer its own phone or email -- and we're talking about the contact numbers on its so-called 'press kit' for God's sake! Or the fact that there isn't a single forum, cyber or otherwise, for anything close to free expression in EV's world. Or the fact that Maharaji has hidden from the press for over twenty-five years now. That might help you get going.

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Date: Tues, Jul 25, 2000 at 14:59:16 (GMT)
From: gErRy
Email: glyng@techline.com
To: Jim
Subject: Mel, don't show this to your wife...
Message:

BOO !!!

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Date: Wed, Jul 26, 2000 at 10:29:35 (GMT)
From: Mel Bourne
Email: None
To: gErRy
Subject: Mel, don't show this to your wife...
Message:
Hi Gerry

You very civil these days, what a pleasant change !!

Mel

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Date: Mon, Jul 24, 2000 at 16:22:34 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Here's a perfect example re Mel
Message:
In a thread below, in response to some excellent questioning by Ham, Mel said the following:

As for what Hare Krishna's or other groups members experience I can't comment, but it would be extremely arrogant of me to assume that their experiences are invalid, so from the outsiders view there is nothing that really makes this 'cult' appear different. It's the argument that 'many paths may lead to God' but being an individual I can only walk one path, not all of them simultaneously. However, I have found one that suits me and I'm quite content to stick with it. I hope you forgive this analogy, it's only a means to make a point.

Now you can't tell me that Mel would NOT have dared post this concession that there are any similarities between the Krishna cult and EV, superficial or not, if he knew that Maharaji and the rest of the cult might be aware he was doing so. Sorry, that's a complete non-starter. Really, could you imagine such an admission on ELK? Never!

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Date: Mon, Jul 24, 2000 at 16:24:09 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Sorry, correction again
Message:
take out the 'NOT' -- (I'm just waking up .... and running)
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Date: Mon, Jul 24, 2000 at 15:02:53 (GMT)
From: PCH
Email: None
To: Mel Bourne
Subject: to explain Jim's point further...
Message:
as his spokesperson (joke), i can explain that what bothers Jim the most is not so much the premie's anonimity but the ex's....it is hard to make credible accusations (in front of the media, a court of law, whatever) if you don't identify yourself openly.
at least, on EV's site you do have actual names of people...(and ELK demands that as well)
i think that this is this site's most serious problem...no credibility....
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Date: Mon, Jul 24, 2000 at 15:54:30 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: PCH
Subject: You're right to some extent
Message:
I do think that ex's give far too much to the cult when they post anonymously. I do think that ELK has one strength we don't have in that respect.

Mind you, I also think that there's not a single point or argument that's made here that gets lost simply because its proponet is anonymous, although premies love to try to say otherwise. Exes are reasonable or at least try to be reasonable, whether they're anonymous or not. The problem, as I see it, is that they set a bad example for premies who haven't found honesty yet. Honesty alludes them, such are the ways of the cult.

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Date: Mon, Jul 24, 2000 at 16:00:09 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: correction
Message:
make that 'eludes'
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Date: Mon, Jul 24, 2000 at 12:33:55 (GMT)
From: JohnT
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: A technical fix in the long term?
Message:
Hi Jim,

I wonder if, long term, a technical fix may be the solution? I ask because another favourite site of mine is the 'news for nerds' place at http://slashdot.org.

Like ex-premie.org, slashdot maintains open access to posters who may write in and comment in any one of a number of threads. Posters may chose to remain anonymous, in which case their post is published under the moniker 'anonymous coward'. But if a person wishes to register a user-name or nick-name their posts appear under their chosen handle. Registration involves giving certain details to the 'forum adminstrators', including, for example, one's email address and other information.

Posts to slashdot.org are 'moderated'. That is, each post is given a score of up to 5. The default score for posts by an anonymous coward is set to zero; and for a registered user the default mark is 1. These scores can be modified up or down by the forum's moderators (in a system a bit like jury service, people who register with slashdot.org are asked to take their turn moderating the posts of others). Really ugly posts may be given a negative mark which effectively consigns them to obscurity and oblivion - although they are still accessible to devotees of such material.

The beauty of the system lies in the way that each registered user can customise the slashdot that they see. One can, for example, set the site so that one sees only posts with a score of 1 or above. Or whatever. The unmoderated slashdot (0 and above) is a pretty ugly place, full of trolls and flaming responses. But set your preferences to see only posts that score three or over, and a very different view emerges. At that exalted level, trolls and flames are gone. Instead the registered user finds vigourous and well informed debate with heavy weight contributions from some senior luminaries of the open-source movement and general computer industry.

Despite the open access to posters (and the controversial areas covered) the forum is usable and useful. People are free to post anonymously - and good anonymous posts can score very highly. But registered users can filter out the crud.

Slashdot has published its website software under the GNU General Public License. That license gives ex-premie.org the right to use the website software without charge. Under the GPL, ex-premie.org is also free to modify the software for the particular circumstances here.

This is by no means a quick fix - but it does seem to me that could provide a long-term solution to the problem. If this sounds interesting it might be worthwhile for folks who might have an interest in slashdot for its own sake to get to know how the site works and can be configured.

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Date: Mon, Jul 24, 2000 at 19:06:55 (GMT)
From: ham
Email: None
To: JohnT
Subject: Wicked concept, love it
Message:
JohnT, don't usually like duplicating posts expressing a point but in this case thanx, what a great concept, very lateral.
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Date: Mon, Jul 24, 2000 at 18:48:10 (GMT)
From: Selene
Email: None
To: JohnT
Subject: Interesting JohnT
Message:
They came up with some good dynamics for communcation.

I *do* think technology could help. I already have scripts on place at work that gather info about what OS a person is using, browser type blah blah... not hard to extend with more variables for proxies, etc. I don't *think*.
(easy for me to say, I do a little of the work and then assign it usually) I believe at one point telecom even had something in place to block proxy servers.

I'll check out that site more. Thanks.

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Date: Mon, Jul 24, 2000 at 16:07:56 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: JohnT
Subject: What an interesting idea!
Message:
John,

That whole set-up certainly has its appeal. I'll check the site out. Meanwhile, this friend was over here the other night and he showed me this site where all the posters have little icons like men on a chessboard (you can pick your own. There were more than a few gorgeous women-type pieces). Somehow you move the pieces around when you're talking with various people. I didn't get it because I was in the other room jamming but I'm going to try to track that place down again. But that seemed more of a fun, cosmetic mod, whereas yours could actually have more substantial promise.

I guess this whole net scene is anything but stagnant. I'm sure that this forum, like everything else on the web, is bound to change -- and improve -- over time just as new ideas and methods pop up here and there.

Meanwhile, I'll check out that site. Thanks.

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Date: Mon, Jul 24, 2000 at 00:02:46 (GMT)
From: Selene
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: and Katie says Brian is not tracking IP's
Message:
So I have to assume no one is. Which lets these yokels run rampant.
oh well Jim. If I *ruled* haha..
I had thought I'd be totally hands off.

Now I'm thinking this shit need addressing. I completely agree.
If Mel Bourne, Dep, even some ex's...or supposed ex's
(my pet peeve) had to be real I know we would see a very different dynamic here.

But they will shout and scream. we are asking to take away a very basic shelter for new people. So my question to you? IF (and it won't happen soon) but IF some sort of authentication were in place. What about those new people who are afraid to post? What would happen to them? That is about the only issue that concerns me. Seasoned posters here can live through it.
but what about them?
Any ideas?

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Date: Mon, Jul 24, 2000 at 00:16:45 (GMT)
From: Katie
Email: None
To: Selene
Subject: Selene, the FA's do track IP's
Message:
Since they are responsible for the forum (thank you, FA's!). The reason Brian and I don't do it is because we don't have to take care of the forum anymore (thanks again, FA's!).

I should say to all that Brian and I had a policy of not revealing anyone's real name, location, or any other information that we got from IP tracking (EXCEPT use of multiple pseudonyms to try and deceive), and the FA's are continuing this policy.

Re authentification - I do not think there is any way you can force people to reveal their real names. The most you could do would be to institute a password system in which they would have to use the same user-name to be able to post. I think this would be scary to new people, and frankly, I do not think it's worth the trade-off.

Take care -
Love,
Katie

I think there are people here who are more scared than they should be about 'coming out', but I also know several people with very valid reasons (usually involving ex-spouses or child custody arrangements).

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Date: Mon, Jul 24, 2000 at 05:00:09 (GMT)
From: Selene
Email: None
To: Katie
Subject: ok ok Katie
Message:
It is a relief to see someone is gatekeeping.
Even if it means I get busted {grin} I'd rather not see this shit run rampant w/o someone at least watching.

I have a headache.

Love you. As always thanks for being around.
Selene

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Date: Sun, Jul 23, 2000 at 22:29:32 (GMT)
From: Nigel
Email: fitzroy@liverpool.ac.uk
To: Jim
Subject: I think Mel serves a very useful purpose...
Message:
I agree with pretty much all of that, Jim, but I think in Mel we have the premies' very best shot. He / she sounds more plausible than the other premie posters, whilst remaining every bit as evasive and revisionist. What politicos call 'spin'.

He can also turn in a grammatical sentence, and unlike trolls such as Shroom or Dep, tends not to resort to ad hominem attacks. If anything, he goes out of his way not to get himself banned.

Why should any premie feel this consistent need to maintain a pseudo-respectful presence here?

I can't help but wonder whether he/she is doing some kind of damage-limitation service for EV. (Sure, he/she is at least trying to do that privately, but I mean maybe officially..?)

If I were Mel and believed as Mel did, I wouldn't hestitate to use my own name. I would be proud of my Master, my saviour and living inspiration, and glad to declare my humble association with him at every turn...

But I suspect Mel, in his/her heart of hearts, feels no such glow of positive association. The word 'ashamed' also comes to mind...

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Date: Mon, Jul 24, 2000 at 06:21:13 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Nigel
Subject: That purpose no longer exists
Message:
Nigel,

Reducing, qualifying or even eliminating anonymity here would indeed discourage some premies from posting like Mel. But we don't need them anymore. Maharaji and EV have already done it all in spades. All the Mel's of the world can do is reiterate what EV's posted in its FAQ acknowledging and supposedly responding to the criticism here.

I actually think we may be doing Mel a disservice by allowing him to play the role he does. If there's a soul (joke!) what he's doing has to be very bad for it.

I just think that a web site where we all stood up to be counted and premies, in contrast, made only the most tentative appearances, if that, would be a healthy thing. Not so much of a sport, perhaps, but it sure would take the rug out from under EV's criticism that we're just a bunch of anonymous (read 'untrustworthy' or 'intimidated') posters. The fact is that very, very few premies are willing to talk about Maharaji openly under their own names. This issue is never explored because so many exes choose anonymity too. Too bad because they, in my opinion, generally don't have to.

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Date: Mon, Jul 24, 2000 at 12:16:28 (GMT)
From: SB
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Jim, what do you think?
Message:
Think about what we talked about on the phone: Should I say my real name?

Would it help or it would create problems? Is it better if I don't? I'm tempted to just do it. I do not have nothing to hide and whatever I have said is true.

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Date: Mon, Jul 24, 2000 at 15:59:08 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: SB
Subject: Yes, for sure use your real name!
Message:
Maharaji's a paper tiger and, lucky you, you haven't tried to keep your social or business life in the cult alive through compromise or deception. Do you know, SB, that there are some exes who continue to do business with the cult and thus feel they can't afford to 'come out' just yet. Inconvenient and all, you know.
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Date: Tues, Jul 25, 2000 at 07:40:50 (GMT)
From: Joey
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Yes, for sure use your real name!
Message:
Do you know, SB, that there are some exes who continue to do business with the cult and thus feel they can't afford to 'come out' just yet.

Which makes me wonder how much of an ex they really are?
Because if they really came to terms with the fundamental manipulation, deception and destructiveness of the cult...they'd not only want to extricate themselves from video or satellite events, but from any kind of economic transaction that would be to the cult's benefit.

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Date: Mon, Jul 24, 2000 at 17:25:48 (GMT)
From: Selene
Email: None
To: Jim and SB
Subject: the excuses for anonymity are endless
Message:
And often bullshit. It's too bad when someone DOES have a valid reason because the others just take advantage.
SB I read your response to me below. Your anonymity with me hasn't bothered me. You are genuine to me, and haven't hurt me.

Do you know, SB, that there are some exes who continue to do business with the cult and thus feel they can't afford to 'come out' just yet. Inconvenient and all, you
know.

aarrrggghhhh...........

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Date: Tues, Jul 25, 2000 at 15:06:43 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Selene
Subject: Yes, they are
Message:
I think a fair question exes should ask themselves is whether or not they think giving up their anonymity would effectively assist in whatever goals they themselves have regarding the cult. If the answer's yes, they should really do a cost / benefit analysis. Just being anonymous out of convenience or habit might not cut it.
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Date: Sun, Jul 23, 2000 at 22:54:24 (GMT)
From: Nigel
Email: fitzroy@liverpool.ac.uk
To: Nigel
Subject: And another thing...
Message:
Mel likes to chip in on other people's threads and - especially - to start big threads of his own, but I don't think he even reads the exes' replies to the latter. Likes to have his say and leave it at that, believing he has said it all.

Otherwise, Mel would have noticed how mercilessly trounced he was by Joe 's response to his 'Revisionism and Jim's nostalgia -' thread. How could anyone with an ounce of self-respect allow themselves to be left looking so foolish?

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Date: Mon, Jul 24, 2000 at 01:14:58 (GMT)
From: Katie
Email: None
To: Nigel
Subject: And another thing...
Message:
Hi Nigel -
I think Mel is an intelligent and compassionate person - like MANY of the premies I used to know, and some that I have met through the forum. It bothers me that he is still giving Maharaji credit for his experiences with knowledge. I have felt the same way about some (definitely not all) of the other premies who posted here - particularly OP.

I have always said that I don't post here to try and convert premies, and this is generally true. I do wish that some of the clearer thinking premies who post here could allow themselves to really LOOK at what they are saying about Maharaji. (I do not discount anyone's experiences with knowledge - the linking of those experiences with Maharaji is what I dispute.) I have had to LOOK at a lot of things in my life that I didn't want to, and I'm sure these people have too.

Yes, I agree that Joe's rebuttal to Mel was excellent. It would have been what I would have said myself, except that I doubt that I would have called Mel 'deluded' upfront - maybe that is why he did not read it. But the rest of it was heartfelt, and, I feel, true.

TC, Nigel -
Katie

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Date: Tues, Jul 25, 2000 at 14:01:41 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Katie
Subject: Are you serious, Katie?
Message:
I think Mel is an intelligent and compassionate person...

You know, I just finished reading a post below which Mel ended in his typical fashion:

Certainly, I accept your view on this, I benefit enormously from the candour and honesty in discussion with ex's like yourself, but the real problem is the bitterness and hatred that can (an has) developed. I fear that this reactive hatred can lead to the most extreme kind of pychological damage and the elements of this I see here I find extremely disturbing.

Do you think Mel's being sincere here, Katie? See, I don't. I think that any informed outsider would scoff at this notion. They would see it for what it truly is, a thinly-veiled scornful provocation. If you look just a little closely you can see Mel's lips curling despite himself. He knows what he's doing and he loves it.

So where's the 'compassion', Katie? And what is it about your earlier posts that embarrasses you?

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Date: Wed, Jul 26, 2000 at 01:57:49 (GMT)
From: Katie
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Are you serious, Katie?
Message:
Yes, I think Mel is a compassionate and intelligent person. I say this after personal e-mail, as well as reading his postings on this site.

You wrote:
Quote from Mel, then you:
Certainly, I accept your view on this, I benefit enormously from the candour and honesty in discussion with ex's like yourself, but the real problem is the bitterness and hatred that can (an has) developed. I fear that this reactive hatred can lead to the most extreme kind of pychological damage and the elements of this I see here I find extremely disturbing.

Do you think Mel's being sincere here, Katie? See, I don't. I think that any informed outsider would scoff at this notion. They would see it for what it truly is, a thinly-veiled scornful provocation. If you look just a little closely you can see Mel's lips curling despite himself. He knows what he's doing and he loves it.

I think you are exaggerating here, Jim, and are possibly blinded by your dislike for ANY premie. If I just READ this forum and didn't know most of the people off-forum (by e-mail or by meeting them in person), I would think that some of the people here were so angry that I'd be scared of them. But I know many of the people who post here, and I know that THIS is the ONE place where they can express their anger - and their bitterness.

I don't think 'any outsider' would 'scoff' at this. I know several other EX-PREMIES who think the forum is way too angry and aggressive, and who do not want to post here, and have not ever posted here because of this. Do you think 'outsiders' would feel any differently?

You wrote:
So where's the 'compassion', Katie? And what is it about your earlier posts that embarrasses you?

I think it's going to hurt people if they cannot let go of their anger at Maharaji - and I see the compassion there. As Joe has said several times, 'living well is the best revenge'. If an ex-premie stops posting here because they are 'living well', and their post-Maharaji life is so great that they have stopped thinking about him - I think that's great! There are always other people who will post here in their (our) places. I gave enough time to Maharaji when I was involved with the cult - I always urge others to NOT keep on doing that now.

Re the 'earlier posts' (and where did you dig THAT up from??) - I went through some tough times in the 'Real World' between then and now, as you may know. My earlier posts reflect my more inexperienced self, and that is why I am embarassed.

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Date: Wed, Jul 26, 2000 at 02:38:36 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Katie
Subject: I'm sorry, Katie, that's hopelessly naive
Message:
Katie,

To begin with, you close by responding to my question about your earlier posts embarassing you:

Re the 'earlier posts' (and where did you dig THAT up from??) - I went through some tough times in the 'Real World' between then and now, as you may know. My earlier posts reflect my more inexperienced self, and that is why I am embarassed.

I just 'dug that up' from one of your own very recent posts. It's just what you said, that some of your earlier posts embarass you. Maybe you forgot but that's where I got it.

Anyway, you've really pissed me off here, Katie. Here's why. I'd said:

Do you think Mel's being sincere here, Katie? See, I don't. I think that any informed outsider would scoff at this notion. They would see it for what it truly is, a thinly-veiled scornful provocation. If you look just a little closely you can see Mel's lips curling despite himself. He knows what he's doing and he loves it.

to which you reply:

I think you are exaggerating here, Jim, and are possibly blinded by your dislike for ANY premie. If I just READ this forum and didn't know most of the people off-forum (by e-mail or by meeting them in person), I would think that some of the people here were so angry that I'd be scared of them. But I know many of the people who post here, and I know that THIS is the ONE place where they can express their anger - and their bitterness.

I don't think 'any outsider' would 'scoff' at this. I know several other EX-PREMIES who think the forum is way too angry and aggressive, and who do not want to post here, and have not ever posted here because of this. Do you think 'outsiders' would feel any differently?

What pisses me off is that you're actually siding with this Mel asshole. How Polyanna-ish you can be! If, like you say, you 'just read the forum', yes, you'd see a lot of anger and bitterness. But if you didn't 'just read the forum' and instead understood exactly what angers the exes -- something you have no excuse for forgetting -- you would deem this hostility exquisitely righteous. And I say that any outsider who isn't a new-age puff ball, who understood the implications of Maharaji's deceit, would indeed have no problem with the anger here.

The anger here is a non-issue. It's a red herring, if you ask me. Yet that's exactly what cult apologists like Mel focus on. 'Oh look how upset you are!' he urges. 'Maybe you should go fly a kite or something.' And there you are eating it up.

Tell me this, Katie, do you think Mel knows how much his gross revisionism inflames that 'anger' he's so concerned about? Talk to me about this in terms of Mel's 'intelligence and compassion' please because maybe I just don't get it. Do you think for a moment that Mel's being sincere here? Because if he's not your defense of him must fail. Do you actually think that Mel would pass a polygraph on any of the bullshit he posts here? You must in order to defend him so.

So then you post this tripe:

I think it's going to hurt people if they cannot let go of their anger at Maharaji - and I see the compassion there. As Joe has said several times, 'living well is the best revenge'. If an ex-premie stops posting here because they are 'living well', and their post-Maharaji life is so great that they have stopped thinking about him - I think that's great! There are always other people who will post here in their (our) places. I gave enough time to Maharaji when I was involved with the cult - I always urge others to NOT keep on doing that now.

I can't believe that you think for a moment that Mel or any like him are motivated by compassion for you, me or any of the rest of us. But it sounds as if you take him fully at face value. Funny, at dinner last night Daneane told me she thought you and Mel were friends. Well I guess she was right.

Katie, maybe it's time for you to go on and show the world how well you can live without Maharaji. I for one don't need your condescension like this. Personally, I feel like I've got a full-spectrum, satisfying life. I am constantly reassessing the pro's and con's of this anti-Maharaji campagin -- and however you dice it, that's exactly what it is -- and I still feel that it's a valid effort for me personally and socially. What I don't need, though, is your kind of back-stabbing. If you've done such a good job 'ridding yourself of the anger' then what are you doing here except to show everyone how nice you can be?

You've given Mel some completely undeserved encouragment, Katie. Just like you used to do with CD and Mili when we argued over their sincerity and intentions. Good work.

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Date: Wed, Jul 26, 2000 at 21:44:17 (GMT)
From: Joe
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: God Jim, Get a Grip!!!
Message:
God Jim, you think Mel was engaging in provocation and Katie doesn't. So? I don't understand why this angers you so much. To suggest Katie is engaging in 'back-stabbing' you in your 'anti-Maharaji campaign' is a bit too Betty Davis (or maybe Ann Baxter). I can't believe you really are feeling as dramatic about this as you appear to be.

Lay off Katie, Jim. It's an old, booooorrrrring story, a recurring, broken record. Let it go, if not for yourself, then for the rest of us.

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Date: Wed, Jul 26, 2000 at 23:04:36 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: God Jim, Get a Grip!!!
Message:
Sorry, Joe. I guess I was just a bit blinded by my dislike of all premies. You're absolutely right. Reasonable minds can disagree as to whether or not Mel's being provocative. What WAS I thinking? Maybe, as Katie suggests, it's time to just move on. Mel is certainly a compassionate and intelligent fellow. Katie is NOT prone to compliment people for the hell of it. I must be nuts.
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Date: Wed, Jul 26, 2000 at 23:26:27 (GMT)
From: Joe
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Thanks for being reasonable, Jim
Message:
We can now all gather around and sing: 'I'd like to wish the world a Coke,' 'If I Had A Hammer,' and, oh what the hell, 'Peace Now,' just like those cute guys did at Millennium.
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Date: Mon, Jul 24, 2000 at 17:21:30 (GMT)
From: Joe
Email: None
To: Katie
Subject: And another thing...
Message:
Well, Katie, I think I told Mel that delusion was the only explanation I could come up with for what he had to say. And I suppose he didn't take it as a criticism, because he is openly implying that Maharaji was deluded as well.

But anyway, thanks for the compliment, and I wanted to add to what you and Nigel said, that if it weren't for Mel, I wouldn't have posted what I did. And I think the audience for that isn't Mel, or Mel is only one person in the audience. I think both Mel and Shroom provide catalysts for some great information and analysis being presented here for the benefit of the many premies and aspirants who read this forum, and I have always thought those are the most powerful elements of this place.

So, in that sense, people like Mel and Shroom do a lot more damage to what Maharaji and Elan Vital are trying to do in their current attempts at whitewashing their cult.

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Date: Tues, Jul 25, 2000 at 02:33:59 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: Sure it's fun but is it worth it?
Message:
No doubt the lying premie brings out some of our best 'work'. For a foil, there's nothing like a sleep-walking cult member. And if you want crazy, unfathomably ridiculous arguments, you're best off talking to an anonymous one because, as we've seen, anonymity tends to bring out some of their best work.

But aren't there some other concerns? Wouldn't the ex-premies look stronger to premies in general if they were all clearly, unflinchingly open about who they are? And wouldn't the fact that few, if any, premies had the guts to post here under their real names speak loudly as well? I think so.

What I'd expect if we somehow got past anonymity is that some premies would still try to defend the indefensible. They simply wouldn't be able to sit back and see no one jump in to defend the Lord. But, now they would ahve to do so under their own name and would be extremely limited in disseminating bullshit. No premies are going to concede, for example, that EV might look like the Hare Krishna cult to outside observers. I couldn't imagine that.

So, yes, we'd have less 'debate'. Individually, many of us might spend less time here than we have these last few years. There'd be less bloodsport, nobly-intended or not. But there would also be a very, very clear message to premies and Maharaji and that's that his intimidation ultimately and irreversibly failed. We've got his number and he, not us, is the one who's afraid of his own shadow.

Hey, aren't you glad you're not 'JW' anymore?

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Date: Mon, Jul 24, 2000 at 17:14:00 (GMT)
From: Jerry
Email: None
To: Katie
Subject: And another thing...
Message:
Hi Katie,

I try to refrain from telling premies that their experience has nothing to do with Maharaji for the simple reason that I have no idea what they're experiencing or what causes it. I'd rather watch them squirm when they're told their master is a two-faced, lying egomaniac. That's something, I think, everybody can agree on, even premies. They sure seem to agree that's the case. Have you read some of Shroomananda's or Mel's posts lately? They have absolutely conceded that M speaks out of both sides of his mouth and is a boldfaced liar. They don't care! Amazing!

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Date: Mon, Jul 24, 2000 at 18:43:14 (GMT)
From: Selene
Email: None
To: Jerry
Subject: If their purpose on here is only to confuse
Message:
and disrupt, it isn't really so amazing. They are doing their job.
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Date: Mon, Jul 24, 2000 at 19:45:56 (GMT)
From: Jerry
Email: None
To: Selene
Subject: If their purpose on here is only to confuse
Message:
Hi Selene,

I don't know what a premie's purpose here is. Maybe some are trying to offset the damage done, but seriously, after Jim is done with them, they look so pathetic they'd be wise to beat it and never come back. The funny thing is they never seem to realize this. They just keep coming back for more, the dodos. Truly stupid behaviour.

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Date: Mon, Jul 24, 2000 at 20:04:42 (GMT)
From: Selene
Email: None
To: Jerry
Subject: so stupid it can't be stupid
Message:
Is my point.
But I don't know either Jerry. one interesting result:

I'm not mad at Jim again.

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Date: Sun, Jul 23, 2000 at 20:24:28 (GMT)
From: P-man
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Does anonymity encourage 'MELification'?
Message:
Jim,
Obviously I don't have a beef with anonymity because I post anonymously, and for good reason I believe. And I take exception with your claims about the harm of allowing anonymous posters.

It would be like if an asshole kept coming to our parties with a mask on, and we said 'If only he didn't have his mask on'. That's ridiculous; throw the bum out.

The idea that Mel isn't a real person is also ridiculous. Of course he's a real person, and his anonymity lets him act like who he really is. And it's clear who he really is, is affected by his involvement with maharaji's cult. If Mel posted in his real name he would be more presentable and that would be more convenient for us, but it would also work against us in a way because Mel wouldn't seem as bad as he really is.

Mel acts like such an asshole because it's as if no one's looking. Ironically, alot of people are looking. They don't know Mel as Bob Blair or Ken Kootles but that wouldn't mean anything to us anyway, knowing his real name. It would just be another name to almost everyone.

What people do see is that Mel is a premie and his behavior and cult-thinking is connected to maharaji and that's pretty significant. The fact that his anonymity allows him to act like more of an asshole than he would under his own name works to our advantage up to a point.

When Mel's (and Shroom, and whoever else's) behavior becomes disruptive, it's our own foibles that prevent us from banishing them from the Forum.

There are alot of good reasons to post anonymously on the Internet and there are many reasons to post anonymously on the Forum. In fact, one of the great things about the Internet is the privacy afforded by anonymity.

In this case, the case of the Forum, I think you have it backwards. Premies show who they really are because of anonymity. We may not like it and be too burdened with guilt to do anything about it but you can't blame the premies from trying to be who they really are.

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Date: Sun, Jul 23, 2000 at 20:48:29 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: P-man
Subject: Does anonymity encourage 'MELification'?
Message:
P-man,

I get your point. Sure. Anonymity gives them the rope to hang themselves. What I'm saying is that we don't need to encourage that kind of shit anymore. I mean, you can look at this a few different ways. There are pro's and con's either which way.

But I've got to go inner-tubing on the river now. They're threatening to throw my computer out the window!

Later.....

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Date: Sun, Jul 23, 2000 at 20:38:29 (GMT)
From: Joey
Email: None
To: P-man
Subject: Good points P-Man
Message:
I certainly don't agree with the abuse of anonymity, but your argument as to how in and of itself, anonymity isn't such a bad thing is quite persuasive.
Along with the point that you make, that what may really be the problem, is our inability or failure to protect ourselves from the abuse.(ie. wasn't shroom supposed to be long gone? Now how does he get around the block(s)?)
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Date: Sun, Jul 23, 2000 at 23:45:06 (GMT)
From: Selene
Email: None
To: Joey
Subject: exactly
Message:
He got around it by masking his IP. I'm so sick of it.

Pman and Katie and Hal and all others who have contributed to the looking at anonymity again; I read you posts. they bring up very good points.

It's a tough issue. As I said (when I started the shit down below) I feel violated on a personal level so hence my passion about the issue.

And, I read the FAQ's on Ev.
(as if haha frequently Asked Question.Do premeis ASK quesitons?)
They like to mention how most of their detractors are anonymous.

So I am only repeating myself. I have the two issues. I do think when someone ' comes out ' and posts as their real selves they tend to try harder to be their real selves. Well I do anyway.
That is WHY I have been afraid to adopt any new personas.
Like 'Estranged' etc... she scares me!!

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Date: Mon, Jul 24, 2000 at 02:20:57 (GMT)
From: Joey
Email: None
To: Selene
Subject: exactly
Message:
As I said (when I started the shit down below) I feel violated on a personal level so hence my passion about the issue.

Selene,

I think I know something about being violated as a result of forming relationships with certain people on this forum.
But how else would I have experienced great writing like the following, if I wouldn't have a let this most magnificent of posers in my life.

Joey, perhaps you felt/feel we were lovers only by phone or cyber space, and I can understand your perspective. Being your lover - to me - was/is such a deep, sensual, and sweet torment on a level beyond the phone or ems. I resisted at first and then had that dream I told you about ... I was asleep and felt a hand lain on my thigh... was it yours? I can't imagine it being anyone elses because there was such a completeness to the touch of that hand. Maybe it is God's hand. I awoke and felt such a floodgate of emotions that I hadn't realized could be so powerful. I literally ached in 'the yearning to be near you'. I won't pretend that those feelings are gone. They're not. Yesterday, driving to the springs, I wondered will I ever gaze into your 'brown' eyes? Will I ever inhale the intoxicating scent of my love? Will I ever brush my lips on your hand, your cheek, your lips... any part of you and sate this longing to taste you? I wondered... do you know that there's a certain breath you take, while we are on the phone that 'whooshes' me to the point of climaxing? What do I do with this sensuality that I always knew was within me? Yet, felt it would be to overwhelming for anyone .... until you awakened it?

Here's to great writers!

Oh, has anybody seen BJ-JB, Trixie-Zelda, Ana T-AT, who knows (and god knows whoever else...Stonor? Elaine?)???

Oh, what a place!

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Date: Mon, Jul 24, 2000 at 05:30:44 (GMT)
From: Selene
Email: None
To: Joey
Subject: ouch...
Message:
Delete that shit off all your disks.
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Date: Mon, Jul 24, 2000 at 11:18:07 (GMT)
From: Katie
Email: None
To: Selene and Joey
Subject: you guys need an exorcism! (nt)
Message:
nt
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Date: Mon, Jul 24, 2000 at 13:09:59 (GMT)
From: Joey
Email: None
To: Katie
Subject: Re: you guys need an exorcism!
Message:
I don't need to be exorcised, Katie.

The devil don't live inside of me.

Well, at least not on a full time basis :)

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Date: Mon, Jul 24, 2000 at 15:19:04 (GMT)
From: Katie
Email: None
To: Joey
Subject: I meant your COMPUTER, Joey, not YOU :)
Message:
Where's that Fiery Wall of Protection powder when you need it?
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Date: Mon, Jul 24, 2000 at 17:16:04 (GMT)
From: Selene
Email: None
To: Katie
Subject: Left it at work
Message:
Didn't think I'd need it here. But I'd better split the bottle and bring some home.
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Date: Mon, Jul 24, 2000 at 06:12:29 (GMT)
From: ps to Joey
Email: None
To: ps to Joey
Subject: oh but make a backup first. I do hahaha nt
Message:
nt
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Date: Mon, Jul 24, 2000 at 00:27:21 (GMT)
From: Katie
Email: None
To: Selene
Subject: anonymity and personal boundaries
Message:
Hi Selene -
I know you have felt personally violated, and I agree that that is a huge problem with anonymity. There have been a couple of people on here that I really liked, but who would not even e-mail me, let alone reveal who they really were, and that made me feel really bad.

I have trouble setting boundaries for this kind of thing, but I think I've been learning to do it. For instance, I will correspond by e-mail, or even talk on the phone, with an anonymous person if I know and trust someone else who knows who they *really* are. But otherwise I am very cautious, and tend to be non-committal, impersonal, and don't trust the person that much - in other words, I wouldn't say anything to them that I wouldn't say on the forum.

The real question is how much can YOU trust someone who won't even trust YOU enough to reveal their real name?

Love you and hope you are OK -
Katie

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Date: Mon, Jul 24, 2000 at 02:18:30 (GMT)
From: Selene
Email: None
To: Katie
Subject: anonymity and personal boundaries
Message:
You said:
The real question is how much can YOU trust someone who won't even trust YOU enough to reveal their real name?
-------
right on Katie It IS up to me to fend these assholes off and I have done a so-so job of it.

It gets weirder stil when I see all of F5 embrace them. Oh well, always the trailblazer....
Love and thanks.

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Date: Mon, Jul 24, 2000 at 02:46:33 (GMT)
From: SB
Email: None
To: Selene
Subject: anonymity and personal boundaries
Message:
Selene, you said:

It gets weirder stil when I see all of F5 embrace them.

Do you mean when ex-premies answer the premies' posts?

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Date: Mon, Jul 24, 2000 at 03:45:13 (GMT)
From: Selene
Email: None
To: SB
Subject: that is some of what I mean
Message:
I also see posers.
People who come on here all sincere as ex's and eveyone just accepts it. And I may or may not have some inside info that makes it hard to take.

I once told an ex im email, about a year ago;
Sometimes it sucks when you learn too much about someone.
But that is something I deal with. I let people in too close so I have go take the bad with the good.

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Date: Mon, Jul 24, 2000 at 12:34:27 (GMT)
From: SB
Email: None
To: Selene
Subject: I see your point
Message:
You are saying that you may have exchanged mail with somebody who you know is 'good' or 'bad' and you have to keep it to yourself when you observe their interaction here with others?

S, trying to combate 'mental laziness'...

I want to give my name because I have nothing to hide, at face level, but then, who are these people brainwashed to a point of being fanatical and illogical, can they be dangerous? That is scarry to me and it makes me think twice about doing it. I'm afraid of retaliation? Sincerely yes. But, in the same time is silly for me to feel this way because for what I have said about EV some who know me know who I am, as Yingling, Wood, Smith, Mancoff...Of course we were trained by Smith that if a trouble maker creates a problem 'you just call the police'...he said, if you get to the phone....hahahaha. The way I see it today is that is more evil in the hearts of premies than what they imagine simply because maharaji is fake and makes people sick. Analizing that makes me understand why Fakiranand almost killed somebody just for throwing a pie on his Lord's face and I also imagine what other loonies I know around here may do, loonies, total loonies. maharaji cares about people? LOL. I don't think so, to this point when his laugh can be 'heard' clearly...talking on EV's site.

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Date: Mon, Jul 24, 2000 at 19:36:07 (GMT)
From: Selene
Email: None
To: SB
Subject: you did see my point
Message:
SB wrote:
You are saying that you may have exchanged mail with somebody who you know is 'good' or 'bad' and you have to keep it to yourself when you observe their interaction here with others?
That is what I am saying. You got it - The Big Mindfuck.
I'm ok, going upluggged in a few days for a week. And to the ocean. Nick wants to drive up the coast and see the monstrosity of a house I have showed the blueprints to him.
I may or may not be able to stomach that 'field trip'.

Thanks for understanding. And as I posted elsewhere you are one of the people who had good reason for anonymity IMO.

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Date: Tues, Jul 25, 2000 at 01:02:32 (GMT)
From: sb
Email: None
To: Selene
Subject: you did see my point (ot)
Message:
Have a great time!! You can do it. Fun!

SB

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Date: Sun, Jul 23, 2000 at 19:45:54 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Look at '49's posts to Joe -- I rest my case (nt)
Message:
hhhhhhhh
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Date: Sun, Jul 23, 2000 at 20:08:22 (GMT)
From: JohnT
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Is 49 for real?
Message:
Jim's right.

49 claims to have been an ashram premie. Does this sound like an ashram premie...

(the other ashram premies) shouldn't have believed he was God... They had unreal expectations and were naturally disappointed.

Which ashram 49?
When?
Who are you talking about?

Freedom from fantasy for ex-premies!

Respect to Jim Heller.

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Date: Mon, Jul 24, 2000 at 06:27:19 (GMT)
From: Selene
Email: None
To: JohnT
Subject: freedom from fantasy
Message:
good way to put it JohnT.
this isn't the place for it and it has been abused.
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Date: Sun, Jul 23, 2000 at 17:38:27 (GMT)
From: Salam
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: 129
Message:
The page counter on EV Itally, says 0000129, maybe it is the effect of pasta?

< a herf='http://www.elanvital.it/'>pasta129

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Date: Sun, Jul 23, 2000 at 17:41:05 (GMT)
From: salam
Email: None
To: oops
Subject: oops, sorry about the link..nt
Message:
nt
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Date: Sun, Jul 23, 2000 at 17:31:50 (GMT)
From: Jean-Michel
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: Gulfstream IV numbers are as follows: N41PR
Message:
Anybody to find who owns that jet ?

PR like Prem Rawat, of course !

I wonder what the N41 stands for !!

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Date: Mon, Jul 24, 2000 at 08:32:20 (GMT)
From: Jean-Michel
Email: None
To: Jean-Michel
Subject: Where's the link to that jets' database ?
Message:
You remember that one with all the G4 and Lears ?

Now that we have its ID#, it should be easy to find who owns it !!

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Date: Sun, Jul 23, 2000 at 18:13:45 (GMT)
From: bill
Email: None
To: Jean-Michel
Subject: Gulfstream IV numbers are as follows: N41PR
Message:
I say it means prem rawat age 41. n41.p.r.

or lets see,
p=perfect
r=ruler

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Date: Mon, Jul 24, 2000 at 10:23:08 (GMT)
From: Jean-Michel
Email: None
To: bill
Subject: Here's a link
Message:
to an aviation database:

http://www1.drive.net/evird.acgi$pass*26851188!_h-www.landings.com/_landings/pages/search_nnr.html

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Date: Mon, Jul 24, 2000 at 11:53:14 (GMT)
From: cq
Email: None
To: Jean-Michel
Subject: And here's a result:
Message:
N-number : N41PR
Registrants Name : PRIME RESOURCES LLC
Owner Address : 510 W 4TH ST
CARSON CITY, NV, 89702
Reservation Type : Fee paid
Reserve Date : 06-Jun-2000
Registration Date : 06-Apr-2001

----------------------------------

Jean-Michel, would this be the ONLY plane with that N-number? (I know next to nothing about aviation)

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Date: Mon, Jul 24, 2000 at 17:06:54 (GMT)
From: Jean-Michel
Email: None
To: cq
Subject: READ THIS !! No doubts anymore !!
Message:
I found this in Forum III's archives:

Forum III: Read Message
Date: Sat, May 22, 1999 at 10:43:58 (EDT)
From: Blue Bird
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: The Seventies to Nineties

Following is info of interest concerning the President of Elan Vital, Linda Gross. Quite a straw woman all along.

Blue

Quantum Incorporated
Type: Corporation File Number: 6439-1978
State: NEVADA Incorporated
On: December 15, 1978
Status: Dissolved Corp Type: Regular
This corporation is not in good standing.
Resident Agent: CROWELL, SUSICH, OWEN & TACKES (Accepted)
Address: 510 WEST 4TH STREET
CARSON CITY NV 89703
President: LINDA L. GROSS
Address: 5321 DERRY RD. SUITE G
AGOURA HILLS CA 91301
Secretary: TERESA A. YINGLING
Address: 5321 DERRY RD. SUITE G
AGOURA HILLS CA 91301
Treasurer: KATHIE THOMAS
Address: 5321 DERRY RD. SUITE G
AGOURA HILLS CA 91301

Following is the re-org of Quantum Incorporated. Apparently Linda passed the torch.

Quantum Incorporated
Old Name: Quantum Leasing Corporation
WITHDRAWAL 06/24/1992 <---- Ninety Two kids
TITLE: VP NAME: MARGULIES, ALICIA I.
11900 BISCAYNE BL, S-200
MIAMI, FL
TITLE: DP NAME: GLIEBE, KATHLEEN M.
1900 BISCAYNE BL, S-200
MIAMI, FL
TITLE: VD NAME: POTTER, P. D.
11900 BISCAYNE BL, S-200
MIAMI, FL
TITLE: S NAME: YINGLING, TERESA A.
299 W HILLCREST DR S212
THOUSAND OAKS, CA
TITLE: T NAME: BALE, JOHN K.
299 W HILLCREST DR S212
THOUSAND OAKS, CA
TITLE: D NAME: JACOBS, ROBERT A.
ONE CHASE MANHATTAN PLZ.
NEW YORK, NY

Same addresses .......... Linda Gross still into it ?

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Date: Tues, Jul 25, 2000 at 17:30:47 (GMT)
From: cq
Email: None
To: Jean-Michel
Subject: Just got your post, J-M!
Message:
Sounds like the kind of material Roger eDrek would love!

I notice that the Carson City address is the same, and that quote: 'This corporation is not in good standing.'

Veeeery interestink.

Not in good standing with whom, I wonder?

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Date: Tues, Jul 25, 2000 at 17:57:17 (GMT)
From: cq
Email: None
To: All
Subject: and there's more!
Message:
J-M, don[t know if it's significant or not, but I just found the following in the archives at http://www.ex-premie.org/archives/archive.cgi?arch=f3a49e#P115T?arch=f3a49e (originally posted by someone called Mary M - before my time, I think)

Note that the Gulfstream isn't the only aircraft he owns/has access to (but note that the BURKHART GROB can only handle 700 pounds take-off weight - that's pushing it for him, isn't it? ;)


Amnex: Active/Foreign Profit

Amtext: Active/Foreign Profit

Prem Mark Inc: Prem Mark, Inc. (the 'Company'), is wholly owned by The Onae Trust (a Qualified Subchapter S Trust). The Company operates as a distributor
of health foods and related products. Sold in 1994.

COMMEX: Florida Profit

Elan Vital: Active/Foreign Non Profit

QUANTUM INCORPORATED: Inactive/Foreign Profit

SEVA CORPORATION OF FLORIDA: Inactive/Florida Profit

SEVA CORPORATION OF AMERICA (FILED IN NEBRASKA): Active/Profit
(Note: This is the company that owns the Malibu Residence, the Helicopter, and the Glider. President: Mary Holle)

CLEAR RESOURCE CORPORATION: Inactive/Florida Profit
(Note: Water Purifying pyramid scheme)

EXECUCORP: Delaware Corporation Active/Foreign Profit

That's part of the picture.


--------------------------

Mary Holle is/was (seeing Delaski bailed out of Amtext just this past May 9th could be an indicator that some people want their names off the current
filings... ergo is/was)President of SEVA so she would probably know how it works.

Following is the info that
1. Establishes the Address,
2. Establishes Seva and the Absentee Owner as Owners
3. just for kicks the info about SEVA's Bell Helicopter and Glider.

Rawat
Name : RAWAT, PREM PAL SINGH
Pilot's Address : 31334 ANACAPA VIEW DR
MALIBU, CA, 90265-2673
Date of Medical : Oct, 1997
Class of Medical : 1
Pilot Certificates : Airline Transport Pilot
Helicopter
Instrument
Glider Rating
Ratings : Multi-Engine Land
FAA Region : Western/Pacific

Single Family Residence
Land Use: SINGLE FAMILY RESIDENCE

Property Address: 31334 ANACAPA VIEW DR
MALIBU, CA 90265

Mailing Address: PO BOX 4029 MALIBU CA 90264
Name: SEVA CORPORATION OF AMERICA & ]A
Name Type: Absentee Owner

Toys

Manufacturer Serial Num.: 1660203
Registration Mark(N-Num): N-103PR
Last Registration Activ.: 08-20-1997
Latest Registration Cert: 02-29-1984
Aircraft Manufacturer: BURKHART GROB
Aircraft Model and Ser.: G 103 TWIN II
Year: 1984
Maximum Take-Off Weight: 700 POUNDS
Number of Seats: 2
Engine Manufacturer: NONE
Model Name: NONE
FAA Region of Registrat.: WESTERN
Registration Type: CORPORATION
Aircraft Type: GLIDER
Airworthiness: STANDARD
Engine Type: NO ENGINE
Name: SEVA CORP
Address: PO BOX 1437
THOUSAND OAKS CA
91358

Manufacturer Serial Num.: 1181522
Registration Mark(N-Num): N-10HA
Last Registration Activ.: 07-16-1997
Latest Registration Cert: 12-28-1982
Aircraft Manufacturer: BELL
Aircraft Model and Ser.: 206L
Maximum Take-Off Weight: 3000 POUNDS
Average Cruising Speed: 112 M.P.H.
Number of Seats: 5
FAA Region of Registrat.: WESTERN
Registration Type: CORPORATION
Aircraft Type: ROTOCRAFT
Airworthiness: STANDARD
Name: SEVA CORPORATION
Address: PO BOX 4029
MALIBU CA
90264

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Date: Mon, Jul 24, 2000 at 21:48:28 (GMT)
From: FYI
Email: None
To: JM
Subject: 11900 Biscayne is Amtext Bldg. nt
Message:
ddd
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Date: Mon, Jul 24, 2000 at 19:41:15 (GMT)
From: SB
Email: None
To: Jean-Michel
Subject: YES!
Message:
Linda Gross still there.

You want her phone number?

She said once, during a phone conference that premies involved had nothing to fear there was not anyhting illegal going on. These is when communites were 'trained' on how to to deal with the Media/Press if contacted. She knew that well: All covered up, eh?

Sickening.

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Date: Mon, Jul 24, 2000 at 14:08:11 (GMT)
From: Jean-Michel
Email: None
To: cq
Subject: and another interesting hint
Message:
I've just found on this guy's website

The G4 is a G.1159C SP
1226 seems to be operator company's ID #

and WAS at Tokyo-Narita on 30/3/98

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Date: Mon, Jul 24, 2000 at 13:21:46 (GMT)
From: Jean-Michel
Email: None
To: cq
Subject: What would be interesting to know
Message:
is WHO is that company's manager etc ....

Some PAMs I guess, Alvaro Pascotto maybe ....

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Date: Mon, Jul 24, 2000 at 13:17:11 (GMT)
From: Jean-Michel
Email: None
To: cq
Subject: And here's a result:
Message:
I don't either !

But I think it's like for cars ! You don't have 2 with the same # !

Otherwise, what would be the use of ID#?

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Date: Sun, Jul 23, 2000 at 16:42:45 (GMT)
From: hamzen
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: The Religions
Message:
Taoism; Shit happens
Hinduism: This shit happened before
Buddhism: It is only an illusion of shit happening
Zen: What is the sound of shit happening
Islam: If shit happens, it's the will of Allah
Atheism: There is no such thing as shit
Agnosticism: Maybe shit happens, maybe it doesn't
Protestantism: Shit won't happen if I work harder
Catholicism: If shit happens, I deserve it
Judaism: Why does shit always happen to me?
Teleevangelism: Send money or shit will happen to you

I'm sure everyone has seen this joke before, but now porky has finally & gracelessly admitted it's a cult/religion, what should it be called & what should be the accompanying phrase?

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Date: Tues, Jul 25, 2000 at 01:55:23 (GMT)
From: Selene
Email: None
To: hamzen
Subject: 70's : no shit happens but for me;
Message:
now: I never said that shit
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Date: Mon, Jul 24, 2000 at 16:02:10 (GMT)
From: Gooberism:
Email: None
To: hamzen
Subject: That's some good shit, dude, don't bogart it...
Message:
nt
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Date: Tues, Jul 25, 2000 at 00:53:59 (GMT)
From: Jerry
Email: None
To: Gooberism:
Subject: That's a good one, heh, heh...
Message:
But I think SB's is the one that's most right on. 'Shit is inside of you'. So smoke it!
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Date: Mon, Jul 24, 2000 at 16:27:42 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Gooberism:
Subject: 'I am the source of shit in this world!' (nt)
Message:
ggggggg
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Date: Sun, Jul 23, 2000 at 19:51:54 (GMT)
From: Jerry
Email: None
To: hamzen
Subject: The Religions
Message:
Maharajism=I never said that shit
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Date: Tues, Jul 25, 2000 at 03:34:12 (GMT)
From: Selene
Email: None
To: Jerry
Subject: hey Jerry just realized I said the same thing
Message:
as you. They are going to accuse us of being brainwashed.
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Date: Mon, Jul 24, 2000 at 01:29:22 (GMT)
From: sb
Email: None
To: Jerry
Subject: good one! (nt)
Message:
nt
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Date: Sun, Jul 23, 2000 at 18:16:47 (GMT)
From: bill
Email: None
To: hamzen
Subject: The Religions
Message:
maharajianity...everything is shit but the master

rawatinism...the family is shit

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Date: Sun, Jul 23, 2000 at 18:16:32 (GMT)
From: Stonor - Shit is in your
Email: None
To: hamzen
Subject: mind; deny it, and it doesn't exist! (NT)
Message:
Shit is in your mind; deny it, and it doesn't exist! (NT)
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Date: Sun, Jul 23, 2000 at 17:38:07 (GMT)
From: Hal
Email: None
To: hamzen
Subject: Let's roll this shit and smoke it ! nt
Message:
bd
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Date: Mon, Jul 24, 2000 at 15:53:37 (GMT)
From: Paul
Email: None
To: everyone
Subject: ex-premies: Oh shit!
Message:
EOM
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Date: Sun, Jul 23, 2000 at 16:43:54 (GMT)
From: SB
Email: None
To: hamzen
Subject: Shit is inside of you. (nt)
Message:
LOL
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Date: Sun, Jul 23, 2000 at 16:11:01 (GMT)
From: webtravlerand
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: does mahara ji have a relationship with the fbi?
Message:
does anyone out there imagine mahara ji and maybe some of his closer devotees were involved with america's fbi and maybe even the cia? do you think mahara ji was politically pro american as i could never tell one way or another if he loved or thoroughly hated america after association with the organization for at least a decade? i kept up with mahara ji and his private jet and amaroo which seems only to provide him with his ever changing facade as lord or guru and an excuse to investigate anything and everything associated with foriegn or investigation including his supposed relationship with mahatma jis', vegetarianism, and including mahara jis' family.
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Date: Sun, Jul 23, 2000 at 19:54:58 (GMT)
From: webtravlerand
Email: None
To: webtravlerand
Subject: missing the 2000 program in alexandria virginia
Message:
i had planned to try and attend the program in virginia that being the first darshan i would acknowledge in many years (which potentially could have relieved questions in my mind) but logistics fell through at the last moment. i'm forced to accept my karma being not so bad association with this computer.
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Date: Sun, Jul 23, 2000 at 16:44:25 (GMT)
From: hamzen
Email: None
To: webtravlerand
Subject: Rumour had it he loved Reagan (nt)
Message:
a
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Date: Mon, Jul 24, 2000 at 01:47:55 (GMT)
From: Joe
Email: None
To: hamzen
Subject: Is that love in the Biblical sense? (nt)
Message:
nt
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Date: Mon, Jul 24, 2000 at 06:51:24 (GMT)
From: ham
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: You're cracking me up at the moment! :)
Message:
What's happening in your life at the moment, you been doing e's or summink? :)
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Date: Sun, Jul 23, 2000 at 16:49:48 (GMT)
From: Salam
Email: None
To: hamzen
Subject: Maybe he works for the Indian mafia..nt
Message:
n
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Date: Sun, Jul 23, 2000 at 14:22:13 (GMT)
From: SB
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: cocky Humpty Dumpty is a SPAMMER!!
Message:
He's spamming the spanish speaking people with his holy crap!! You won't believe what I just saw!

MAHARAJI, YOUR DAYS OF GAMES ARE NUMBERED!!

Now you want to deny all! It doesn't work like that maharaji. You are at fault and now you must reapond to us: Why did you lied to us and why you want to continue lying? You are inciting a war! Your ex-premies are telling the truth and nothing you may do can make you look different than what you are: A bad person!! Very bad person.

You deserve whatever you are going to get, BASTARD!!

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Date: Sun, Jul 23, 2000 at 16:46:26 (GMT)
From: Salam
Email: None
To: SB
Subject: Do not miss the big event if you are in Vensuela,
Message:

Transmisión Satelital para Todo Público
Fecha: martes 25 de julio
Hora: 7:00 p.m.
Lugar: Hotel Caracas Cumberland
2da. Av. de Las Delicias,
entre Av. Francisco Solano
y Libertador,
Caracas.

Refreshment are not served,

Salam


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Date: Sun, Jul 23, 2000 at 17:16:37 (GMT)
From: SB
Email: None
To: Salam
Subject: maharaji shows desperation!!
Message:
He has to maintain the devotion level on his subjects. Lardy is very worry about the damage brought by the mistake he did opening once more his lying big mouth to say he is not GOD anymore! Premies are confused...nothing new. He just have to keep trying...to secure those few idiots left who are afraid 'of his loving Powers'.

I wish I was a fly to be there and hear more of his lies...not that he is going to say anything new...I wolud like to hear how he justifies that one today. I'm no GOD, I'm just another god. I'm a cult leader. I have created a new religion. Elan Vital is a church now premies... gggha...

Sorry, I must take a shower now: I puked all over myself again!

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Date: Sun, Jul 23, 2000 at 17:26:48 (GMT)
From: Salam
Email: None
To: SB
Subject: SB, you are missing the point, you should have
Message:
been a guru, then you can have a private plane. No need for transformation then.
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Date: Sun, Jul 23, 2000 at 15:00:30 (GMT)
From: The Fork and the Spoon
Email: SB=Somewhat Bent?
To: SB
Subject: cocky Humpty Dumpty is a SPAMMER!!
Message:
Are you for real?
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Date: Sun, Jul 23, 2000 at 16:42:34 (GMT)
From: Salam
Email: None
To: The Fork and the Spoon
Subject: Forkey, I do not know what you want or after, but
Message:
if I was you, I will not jump from one forum to the other, with the attitude that you are carrying. Also if you think I will reply to your e-mail, you have something else coming. I will not be dragged into your pethetic little mind, I definetly advice you to shap up or put up with what is going to happen when others enter the forum.

Salam

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Date: Mon, Jul 24, 2000 at 01:28:49 (GMT)
From: Fork and Spoon
Email: None
To: Salam
Subject: Dear me that smells like a THREAT!!
Message:
Is what is there what you are trying to say or are you struggling with Englaise????
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Date: Sun, Jul 23, 2000 at 09:27:54 (GMT)
From: Sir David
Email: sirdavid12@hotmail.com
To: Everyone
Subject: A cocky Humpty Dumpty
Message:
Might have a great fall and all of Elan Vital's volunteers couldn't put him back together again.

That video clip takes the biscuit. To think we lived in poverty to travel across continents to just touch his feet. It's a joke. A lying buffoon conned the cream of a generation's sincere seekers and now he thinks he can just rewrite history and pretend it never happened.

He's just digging himself deeper into a hole with every ridiculous word he says. Time to call it a day Maharaji. You've lost the love and respect of your former devotees. So many times you said it was Lord and devotee and now rather than pretend it never happened you'd serve yourself and others far better by bowing out, gracefully.

One thing's for sure;

This farce cannot continue!

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Date: Sun, Jul 23, 2000 at 03:01:58 (GMT)
From: Mel Bourne
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: Sorry VP - a late answer to your question
Message:
Hi VP

On Thursday you asked a question and I missed it, anyway a late answer is better than none (I hope).

You said...

Shroo said that now Maharaji is more picky about giving it to people with whom Knowledge would 'stick' Doesn't that whole line of reasoning sound weird to you? He wants to promote it, but you have to be the 'right sort' of person to receive it...what ever happened to the idea that Knowledge is within each of us and we can all access and enjoy it? I don't think that promise has changed since the 70's, has it?

Firstly, I'm not really aware that anyone's been 'refused' Knowledge unless there's some kind of mental instability, of course. Generally people have been asked to wait.

Obviously Maharaji is concerned that if people receive Knowledge that they practice it and it certainly helps the promotion of it if this is the case. A bit of fundamental 'sales' savvy there, I guess, 'the best advertisment for a product is satisfied customers'. I don't think it's an issue of the 'right sort' of person receiving Knowledge, that implies discrimination of some sort. I think it's a matter of whether or not Maharaji feels that someone understands (theoretically) the value of it and is willing to demonstrate a commitment to its practice and personally realise it value.

I agree that having to wait until someone thinks you are 'ready' can seem humiliating and can understand why some people may walk away digusted with the whole thing, but this is Maharaji's standard on this, quality maybe?

Mel

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Date: Sun, Jul 23, 2000 at 03:58:05 (GMT)
From: hamzen
Email: None
To: Mel Bourne
Subject: Didn't you see the bumff that went out
Message:
It made it quite plain that NO-ONE was to be allowed to receive k UNLESS they had completely accepted the CRUCIAL role ogf his lordship in it all. Hardly just a meditation technique. Your line of arguing might be acceptable otherwise, but no, we're talking idol worship here, religion.
Why is that so hard for you to accept?
Loads of people belong to religions, whether in the west or the east.
But what you're saying is that because k is so valuable, the degree of slack and variability about it's truth claims and the value and uniqueness of the seller, don't need to be so testable, which is the exact reverse of what anyone would expect in this territory.
Just come clean and admit it's a religion.
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Date: Sun, Jul 23, 2000 at 09:36:10 (GMT)
From: Mel Bourne
Email: None
To: hamzen
Subject: Didn't you see the bumff that went out
Message:
Hamzen

Just come clean and admit it's a religion

No, my experience is not a religion, and remember 'forget the rest'

Mel

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Date: Sun, Jul 23, 2000 at 11:53:53 (GMT)
From: SB
Email: None
To: Mel Bourne
Subject: Stubborn Denial
Message:
Nothing to sustain your claims though....
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Date: Sun, Jul 23, 2000 at 11:46:56 (GMT)
From: hamzen
Email: None
To: Mel Bourne
Subject: Well at least you're honest about your denial
Message:
of being in a religion.

But to any independent person, that's what it is.

Now lets get onto the next bit.
You're saying that even if he does lie, distort and avoid, and even if you do, that's irrelevant because the experience is all.

(1) Would you admit that you and junkies have an awful lot in common then, since that is exactly their argument?

(2) Now you will obviously counter with the facvt that you don't damage your body by practicing and you are still able to function in this world. But can you imagine that avoiding these 'lesser', in your eyes realities, you are in some way denying them and that this might have side effects psychologically that could be harmful? Can you think of anything else in your life you could reason like this without it having deleterious effects?

(3) Since, as you've now admitted, truth is neither here nor there when it comes to anything but the experience, that anyone who comes in can be lied to and it doesn't matter. How then is it any different from the heavenly deception that the children of god or krishna people practice? I've also met people from both who also have 'that' experience, ands have also read about any number of other groups where people have those same experiences.
So what makes this cult so special?

(4) How, since nothing matters re truth apart from that experience, that anything you say is worth wasting time on, how do I know you're not lying about even your experience, since honesty and truthfulness is obviously an irrelevant concept.

(5) Also for the same argument line, is there ANYTHING that he could do that would make you step away from him?
Murder, protecting a paedophile, theft, anything at all? and again how would I know, you're attempting at least, to be honest, since the question I'm asking you is not about the experience?

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Date: Mon, Jul 24, 2000 at 11:32:27 (GMT)
From: Mel Bourne
Email: None
To: hamzen
Subject: Well at least you're honest about your denial ...
Message:
Hi hamzen

An attempt at honest answers to your questions....

(1) Would you admit that you and junkies have an awful lot in common then, since that is exactly their argument?

May be not in experience, or healthy practice, but I can certainly see similarities if your point is about 'justification'.

(2) ..... But can you imagine that avoiding these 'lesser', in your eyes realities, you are in some way denying them and that this might have side effects psychologically that could be harmful? Can you think of anything else in your life you could reason like this without it having deleterious effects?

Im not sure what you mean by 'lesser realities'. I don't consider that I am 'pyschologicaly' damaged by my involvement in Knowledge, and I don't consider it has any deleterious effect on my life. Obviously, I might not be pyschologically perfect (but who is) and I would consider some of my childhood negative experience as more damaging than my trying to experience 'peace' by meditating. Unless you specify the 'lesser realities' you are talking about, I don't think that I can clearly answer this question. I don't consider the 'reasoning' applied in my discussion with ex's as having deletrious effects, but again I'm not sure that I'm quite getting the point of this question.

(3) Since, as you've now admitted, truth is neither here nor there when it comes to anything but the experience, that anyone who comes in can be lied to and it doesn't matter. How then is it any different from the heavenly deception that the children of god or krishna people practice? I've also met people from both who also have 'that' experience, ands have also read about any number of other groups where people have those same experiences.
So what makes this cult so special?

Well, you've certainly extrapolated on the argument I put forward in relation the presentation of Knowledge in different cultures and made it seem as though I think truth (ie honesty) is unimportant. Of course, I value honesty and integrity.

As for what Hare Krishna's or other groups members experience I can't comment, but it would be extremely arrogant of me to assume that their experiences are invalid, so from the outsiders view there is nothing that really makes this 'cult' appear different. It's the argument that 'many paths may lead to God' but being an individual I can only walk one path, not all of them simultaneously. However, I have found one that suits me and I'm quite content to stick with it. I hope you forgive this analogy, it's only a means to make a point.

(4) How, since nothing matters re truth apart from that experience, that anything you say is worth wasting time on, how do I know you're not lying about even your experience, since honesty and truthfulness is obviously an irrelevant concept.

Again, as in my previous answer, you seem to think that I have a debased value of honesty, but in fact I don't. True, you really can never know whether I'm lying about my experience or not. You can only trust me and take me word for it (if you want to). However your acceptance of what I say about it doesn't undermine or validate it, it exists whether you believe me or not.

(5) Also for the same argument line, is there ANYTHING that he could do that would make you step away from him?
Murder, protecting a paedophile, theft, anything at all? and again how would I know, you're attempting at least, to be honest, since the question I'm asking you is not about the experience?

I don't know, I guess everyone has a line that if other people step over, it changes their whole trust and respect for them. I guess that where Maharaji is concerned I give him the 'benefit of the doubt' with regard to all the accusations and allegations that circulate here and feel incredibly hurt by them. Most of the serious allegations are about his followers, rather than him, and if he is regarded as showing poor judgement as to how he deals with the issues, well I guess that's part of the territory that comes with the job. I clearly define, though, the role Maharaji has had in my acquisition of Knowledge and I value that immensely. As for 'stepping away', maybe that could happen, but I could never deny that he was the agency by which I was able to acquire and enjoy Knowledge.

Mel

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Date: Tues, Jul 25, 2000 at 00:47:17 (GMT)
From: hamzen
Email: None
To: Mel Bourne
Subject: Blimey, a number of posts and still talking
Message:
without having to resort to abuse, novel!

(1) Would you admit that you and junkies have an awful lot in common then, since that is exactly their argument?
May be not in experience, or healthy practice, but I can certainly see similarities if your point is about 'justification'.

Well Mel, that response at last means I've met a premie here who is part of the human race, I appreciate that big time. It's the first time ever any 'discussion' with a premie here becomes a discussion, and not like butting my head against a brick wall or chatting with spotty adolescents. I might not agree with most of your points, I might discern large doses of cultic thinking, but for that response alone you get some respect since you didn't fall for the obvious bait of just having junkie with premie, and actually read what the point was about, you already had some respect from me for your professional 'rights' work, a rarity in my experience in the premie world.

(2) ..... But can you imagine that avoiding these 'lesser', in your eyes realities, you are in some way denying them and that this might have side effects psychologically that could be harmful? Can you think of anything else in your life you could reason like this without it having deleterious effects?
Im not sure what you mean by 'lesser realities'. I don't consider that I am 'pyschologicaly' damaged by my involvement in Knowledge, and I don't consider it has any deleterious effect on my life. Obviously, I might not be pyschologically perfect (but who is) and I would consider some of my childhood negative experience as more damaging than my trying to experience 'peace' by meditating. Unless you specify the 'lesser realities' you are talking about, I don't think that I can clearly answer this question. I don't consider the 'reasoning' applied in my discussion with ex's as having deletrious effects, but again I'm not sure that I'm quite getting the point of this question.
I don't think I explained what I meant by lesser realities at all well. What I was getting at, is that by denying the cultic effects of gm's 'lying' & the cultic surrounds he covers himself with all over, and the unconscious or semi-conscious rationalizations and apportioning of blame onto ashram premies and not gm, just focusing on the experience, don't you think certain aspects of yourself and your experience might have been corrupted to the point that it has psychological effects?
One of the most surprizing realizations I had after I walked was that I'd taken on certain psychological colourings that I was not even aware of, until the 'protective' clothing of premiedom had been stripped away. A naivete about social communication, a puritanical streak, a lack of an ability to take the piss out of myself, an overblown seriousness, an arrogance; subtle though it was, upon exposure it was more than just a few colourings, but deep psycho stuff that needed serious working on, and all because I had protected the experience, raised it above those other 'lesser' virtues. Being in relationships with non-premies was a serious eye opener, socializing with non-premies too, and only non-premies, in effect I'd become more po-faced, and control freaky, than I could have imagined. Outside of premie social circles I began to feel the way I did as an adolescent, and it made me realize how unbalanced and undeveloped I was. Maybe as a premie that is hard to imagine, it certainly made me realize how strong the conceptual crutches were, ahead of the raw me. It also made me realize that my reasons for being there were not just about strengths, finding that experience etc, but that there was a need to distance myself emotionally from the pain of this world, ie there were anaesthetic qualities in my committment to 'that' experience. Realized that by elevating the experience as the be all and end all I'd missed out on a lot of basic human emotions that were of no less value than the experience itself. It took me a long time to come to terms with that, and was completely unexpected. In the process I realized that however much, like you, I thought I hadn't treated other people as less, on some subtle level I had, by denying that those who were living a more unprotected, less spiritual life, were having an equally valid, if different experiential existence, that I had as much to learn from them, as they had from me. A lot of it came down to the effects of rationalizing lila internally, the discrepances between what I heard him say, and the organizational realities and personal lifestyle/tone he carried with him. And did'nt all those of us who were outside of the shrams blame the premies in them, when they were only manifesting the inconsistencies that came from gm himself. Could go a lot further on this one, it required a lot of very subtle working.

(3) Since, as you've now admitted, truth is neither here nor there when it comes to anything but the experience, that anyone who comes in can be lied to and it doesn't matter. How then is it any different from the heavenly deception that the children of god or krishna people practice? I've also met people from both who also have 'that' experience, ands have also read about any number of other groups where people have those same experiences.
So what makes this cult so special?
Well, you've certainly extrapolated on the argument I put forward in relation the presentation of Knowledge in different cultures and made it seem as though I think truth (ie honesty) is unimportant. Of course, I value honesty and integrity.
Yes but when it comes to gm saying just a while back that he never said he was god, that it was all down to the premies, and then when we exposed that as a lie, he admits he did say it, but who cares, and you admit you agree with him, then you don't value honesty and integrity to the same level you value that experience, then you are compromising.
As for what Hare Krishna's or other groups members experience I can't comment, but it would be extremely arrogant of me to assume that their experiences are invalid, so from the outsiders view there is nothing that really makes this 'cult' appear different. It's the argument that 'many paths may lead to God' but being an individual I can only walk one path, not all of them simultaneously. However, I have found one that suits me and I'm quite content to stick with it. I hope you forgive this analogy, it's only a means to make a point. Again appreciate your honesty, but why is this such a rare commodity in premie visitors, and in premies in general. You'd expect that the reverse would be true, and that they would be more honest than non-experiencers?? I'm certain that's the effects of the twisted rationalizations gm produces that somehow corrupts the experience, and certainly corrupts the explanations of the experience.
(4) How, since nothing matters re truth apart from that experience, that anything you say is worth wasting time on, how do I know you're not lying about even your experience, since honesty and truthfulness is obviously an irrelevant concept.
Again, as in my previous answer, you seem to think that I have a debased value of honesty, but in fact I don't. True, you really can never know whether I'm lying about my experience or not. You can only trust me and take me word for it (if you want to). However your acceptance of what I say about it doesn't undermine or validate it, it exists whether you believe me or not.
You miss my point, if it's irrelevant whether gm lies or not, because the experience is beyond it, then anything that promotes and furthers the spread of k into this society is justifiable. As Katie states below in Jerry's thread (you might have missed both Katie & my responses to you), the ends justify the means is a very dangerous path, and riddled with deviations without serious checks and balances, and that's without arguing whether such a position is ever justifiable. I'm experiencing a classic example of this at work. I do support work for people with learning disabilities, in a supposedly radical establishment, but the org is abusive, such that the abuse is institutionalized. My boss protects our members from this abuse but passes it onto staff, so that anyone with committment to the values ends up destroyed........
(5) Also for the same argument line, is there ANYTHING that he could do that would make you step away from him?
Murder, protecting a paedophile, theft, anything at all? and again how would I know, you're attempting at least, to be honest, since the question I'm asking you is not about the experience?
I don't know, I guess everyone has a line that if other people step over, it changes their whole trust and respect for them. I guess that where Maharaji is concerned I give him the 'benefit of the doubt' with regard to all the accusations and allegations that circulate here and feel incredibly hurt by them. Most of the serious allegations are about his followers, rather than him, and if he is regarded as showing poor judgement as to how he deals with the issues, well I guess that's part of the territory that comes with the job. I clearly define, though, the role Maharaji has had in my acquisition of Knowledge and I value that immensely. Bearing in mind that the techniques are big standard yoga techniques, which could have come through many sources, and that what you have gained from it has to have been from you, what do you see as so special about his input? As for 'stepping away', maybe that could happen, but I could never deny that he was the agency by which I was able to acquire and enjoy Knowledge. Have you read Nigels thread about hypnosis? Would be interested in your reactions.

To take it wider, do you understand or appreciate in any area the level of anger, frustration, and criticism that gm takes here, and what do you feel about the magic thinking/juju aspects that even now he hints at to the knowers, witness especially those insider jokes that produce those embarrassing premie laughing responses?

Do you also accept, that the criticism and apportioning of blame to premies alone is unfair, since any culture and the adherents it attracts, and their behaviour, has to in some large measure reflect the tone at least set from the top?

Do you also accept that in any group, whether spiritual or otherwise, that those who leave have a unique and valuable role in critical analysis of that group, by virtue of their distance from it now, while it is still clear in their experience, which again I would presume you would in any culture outside of premiedom?

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Date: Tues, Jul 25, 2000 at 07:43:01 (GMT)
From: Mel Bourne
Email: None
To: hamzen
Subject: Blimey, a number of posts and still talking
Message:
Hi again Hamzen

To take it wider, do you understand or appreciate in any area the level of anger, frustration, and criticism that gm takes here, and what do you feel about the magic thinking/juju aspects that even now he hints at to the knowers, witness especially those insider jokes that produce those embarrassing premie laughing responses?

Of course I can, it is plainly obvious that people feel hurt and rejected because of the changes that have happened over the years. Fortunately, I haven't been effected in the same way because I didn't make the type of commitment that many here made. Without trying to sound trite, I would say that the reaction to Maharaji and premies evident here is very similar to that experienced by people who are involved in the process of a messy marriage breakdown (it really is the breakdown in a relationship, isn't it?), huge amounts of recrimination, blame, frustrated anger and defensiveness and invariably any attempt to reconcile points of view end up in ferocious arguments based on the overwhelming of conviction that 'I'M RIGHT, YOU'RE WRONG'. The thing that disappoints me is that through all our disagreements we lose sight that we are all fallible human beings with far more in common than not.

As to the premie 'magical' thinking you refer to, I personally regard that as some kind of 'in-house' phenenonom, and probably a reaction to or acknowledgement of familiar but former myths. I've belonged to sporting clubs which have had similar phenomena, a laughter or reaction usually relating to some obsure aspect of the sport involved which remains a complete mystery to the outsider.

Do you also accept, that the criticism and apportioning of blame to premies alone is unfair, since any culture and the adherents it attracts, and their behaviour, has to in some large measure reflect the tone at least set from the top?

Of course I accept that 'apportioning the blame on premies alone' is unfair, but I think that Maharaji has acknowledged this by making the changes (from the top)that we now have. The real problem I see on this site is that many ex's tend to blame Maharaji alone for everything. When I was having difficulties in the early days they were nearly always with premies and hardly with Maharaji. The 'cult' behaviour was really a group dynamic of people trying to out do each other in their 'devotion'. I found that such an environment was really beginning to suffocate any experience of Knowledge, so I moved to safer ground to protect it.

Do you also accept that in any group, whether spiritual or otherwise, that those who leave have a unique and valuable role in critical analysis of that group, by virtue of their distance from it now, while it is still clear in their experience, which again I would presume you would in any culture outside of premiedom?

Certainly, I accept your view on this, I benefit enormously from the candour and honesty in discussion with ex's like yourself, but the real problem is the bitterness and hatred that can (an has) developed. I fear that this reactive hatred can lead to the most extreme kind of pychological damage and the elements of this I see here I find extremely disturbing.

Mel

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Date: Tues, Jul 25, 2000 at 23:42:06 (GMT)
From: hamzen
Email: None
To: Mel Bourne
Subject: And last but definitely not least
Message:
Since you obviously value your experience of knowledge so highly, and place it highest of al,l above all else in this life, don't you find it appalling how incompetent he has been in spreading it to people who have very little in their lives, hardly a shortage of them on this planet after all?

And doesn't the thought of $25 million for his jet, with running costs of between $10,000 & $20,000 an hour, fill you with even just a little embarrassment, if not disgust?

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Date: Wed, Jul 26, 2000 at 11:00:37 (GMT)
From: Mel Bourne
Email: None
To: hamzen
Subject: And last but definitely not least
Message:
hamzen

You can't deny that he's definitely succeeded in spreading the Knowledge globally,though, can you?

As for the costs involved, how can I possibly comment, I don't really know the logistics involved, and besides 'the end justifies the means', doesn't it?

Thanks for a pleasant conversation.

Mel

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Date: Wed, Jul 26, 2000 at 17:21:44 (GMT)
From: Jethro
Email: None
To: Mel Bourne
Subject: And last but definitely not least
Message:
'You can't deny that he's definitely succeeded in spreading the Knowledge globally,though, can you?'

I really don't know why premies think this. R...(woops, can't say that name) eeeer someone said the same to me recently.

Self realisation fellowship, Raja Yoga Academy, and many other groups teach these techniques and more.

Do your own reality check on this.

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Date: Wed, Jul 26, 2000 at 16:09:36 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Mel Bourne
Subject: Oh yeah, good point, Mel -- you got him there!
Message:
You have to admit, Ham, that Mel's got you there. Maharaji really is spreading Knowledge globally. Now what in the world can you say to that?

And I have to agree with Mel on that other issue too. It's extremely unreasonable and even thus unfair to ask Mel to comment on costs at all. Obviously, if you'd have thought about this, you'd have realized that he doesn't know the logistics. Furthermore, what's wrong with you? Did you forget that the ends justifies the means? I thought that much, at least, was already settled business.

Mel, Katie's right. You ARE intelligent and compassionate! Let's see how Ham tries to crawl out of this hole you've tipped him into.

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Date: Tues, Jul 25, 2000 at 13:44:54 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Mel Bourne
Subject: Astounding.... Disgusting and astounding
Message:
....the real problem is the bitterness and hatred that can (an has) developed. I fear that this reactive hatred can lead to the most extreme kind of pychological damage and the elements of this I see here I find extremely disturbing.

And I say that any informed observer watching this conflict between the cult and its former members would say that you were full of shit, that the 'real problem' is that the cult persists and that neither it nor its leader has the courage to stand accountable for anything. You have no scruples, Mel. You fear 'harrassment' in the same way a roof-top sniper fears detection.

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Date: Wed, Jul 26, 2000 at 10:52:03 (GMT)
From: Mel Bourne
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Astounding.... Disgusting and astounding
Message:
Jim

And I say that any informed observer watching this conflict between the cult and its former members would say that you were full of shit..

Yawn, whatever you say Jim....

Mel

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Date: Tues, Jul 25, 2000 at 21:47:00 (GMT)
From: JohnT
Email: None
To: Mel Bourne
Subject: ... smug and filthy stinking thinking (nt)
Message:
No, that's too mild.
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Date: Mon, Jul 24, 2000 at 11:56:41 (GMT)
From: Mel Bourne
Email: None
To: Mel Bourne
Subject: ... honest about your denial ...(take 2)
Message:
Hi again Hamzen

Seems the last pargarph above got lost, but to continue the point I was saying...

...I guess that where Maharaji is concerned I give him the 'benefit of the doubt' with regard to all the accusations and allegations that circulate here and feel quite hurt by them. If Maharaji has been poor in his judgement as to how to deal with these issues it's part of the territory that comes with the job I guess, but I feel quite clear about him being the agency by which I received an enjoy the Knowledge and could never deny that.

Mel

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Date: Wed, Jul 26, 2000 at 13:02:20 (GMT)
From: JohnT
Email: None
To: Mel Bourne
Subject: Why ?
Message:
Mal Born: I guess that where Maharaji is concerned I give him the 'benefit of the doubt' with regard to all the
accusations and allegations that circulate here and feel
quite hurt by them.

Why? You've said you can entertain the idea that a K-like experience has nothing to do with m - or K for that matter. Rawat has given you nothing - merely tipped you off that such and such techniques exist. But he has also lied to you - telling you K is something to do with him. Those lies and the baggage you've consequently followed exacted a very heavy price from you. You lost your sense of ethics; feel for truth; and love of beauty. And now you are a sad figure of ridicule who dare not openly stick up for his delusional beliefs.

Clearly the man formerly known as Prem Pal Rawat is a fraud and a liar. The charge is repeatedly made in public fora and backed with evidence. If Rawat had an effective counter to the charge that he is a false and empty fraud he would have sued long ago.

Yet you are his apologist. So Mal, what's the real payoff for you?

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Date: Sun, Jul 23, 2000 at 14:14:58 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: hamzen
Subject: Way to go, Ham! (nt)
Message:
kkk
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Date: Sat, Jul 22, 2000 at 23:49:13 (GMT)
From: Jerry
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: 'Forget about the rest'
Message:
I finally got Quicktime to work and saw M's little video clip about being the Messiah, but only 'back in the seventies'. Heh, heh. A nice little brushoff, to say the least. Maharaji has given his decree. If you want peace, and happiness, he can give that to you. Forget about the rest. That is his latest 'agya' (you all remember agya), but let's update it and call it his decree.

Every premie will now not give a shit what Maharaji has said about himself in the past, present, or future. Why? Because Mahraji has instructed them that it is about 'that peace'. Forget about the rest. And as you know and I know, what Maharaji says, goes. Mel and Shroo are already, blatantly, professing they don't care what Maharaji has said. They have that peace, and as the master has decreed, forget about the rest. So they will. Because to be a premie means, before anything else, to treat the words of Maharaji as if they come from the mouth of God, himself. To be a premie means to believe he is God, or at least, to treat him as if he were.

So, thank you Mel and Shroo, for bringing it back home to me what it means to be a premie. It means never to question the master. It means to hang on every word, to wait with abated breath for the next pearls of wisdom to pour forth, so we can have the direction we so crave in our lives which we believe only Maharaji can provide, nobody else. It means to give him our heart, minds and soul. It means to shut down our critical faculties, because God has spoken. So, like Maharaji has decreed, just focus on that peace, Mel, Shroo. Forget about the rest. The golden path has been laid before you. Skip down it merrily, without a thought in your head. Maharaji, aka God Almighty, will do whatever thinking is necessary. You just enjoy the journey, and leave the driving to Big M.

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Date: Sun, Jul 23, 2000 at 07:28:50 (GMT)
From: Shroomananda
Email: None
To: Jerry
Subject: He never asked me to stop thinking, Jerry!
Message:
As a matter of fact, after listening to Maharaji for 18 years, I've learned to put my thoughts in their proper place. Thank God that there's a place within me where my thoughts can't go! They always come back but at least I get some respite from them once in awhile. I don't know about you, but I get tired of constantly thinking. As Maharaji said once, it's like driving a car with no brakes. And believe you me, I've driven a car with practically no brakes and it was nerve-wracking!
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Date: Sun, Jul 23, 2000 at 13:10:50 (GMT)
From: Jerry
Email: None
To: Shroomananda
Subject: He never asked me to stop thinking, Jerry!
Message:
All anybody here is asking you to think about is the truth about Maharaji. He once said he was God, and now says he never said he was God, but still alludes that he was saying he was the messiah back in the seventies. Yes, I can see where you'd want to shut those thoughts out. They're mind boggling and damaging to M's credibility, which you'd like to believe is impeccable, but obviously is not.
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Date: Sun, Jul 23, 2000 at 23:26:54 (GMT)
From: Shroomananda
Email: None
To: Jerry
Subject: If someone gave you a cold pure glass of water
Message:
and made some claim that you believed about him and then later said that he hadn't made the claim or made a different claim about himself, but continued to offer you that same cold pure water whenever you were thirsty, would you refuse to drink that cold water on the grounds that he's a liar or a con artist? The water is free. I'm thirsty. I'll drink it and I'll drink it again the next time I'm thirsty. It quenches my thirst. What the water-giver calls himself or doesn't call himself or claims not to call himself is irrelevant to quenching my thirst. Especially since it's the best damn water I've ever tasted!
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Date: Mon, Jul 24, 2000 at 11:15:59 (GMT)
From: Katie
Email: None
To: Shroomananda
Subject: This is another 'ends justify means' statement
Message:
You wrote:
If someone gave you a clear pure glass of water and made some claim that you believed about him and then later said that he hadn't made the claim or made a different claim about himself, but continued to offer you that same cold pure water whenever you were thirsty, would you refuse to drink that cold water on the grounds that he's a liar or a con artist? The water is free. I'm thirsty. I'll drink it and I'll drink it again the next time I'm thirsty. It quenches my thirst. What the water-giver calls himself or doesn't call himself or claims not to call himself is irrelevant to quenching my thirst. Especially since it's the best damn water I've ever tasted!

I'd sure as hell question the water-giver, even if the water was OK! You imply (although I am sure not consciously!) that who or what Maharaji is is irrelevant to the experience of knowledge. I believe this is true.

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Date: Mon, Jul 24, 2000 at 00:51:36 (GMT)
From: Sir Dave
Email: None
To: Shroomananda
Subject: Maharaji's not giving you the water
Message:
Unless of course, you are refering to the videos and satellite events which he gives. But the so-called knowledge is just your own personal meditation. It has absolutely nothing to do with Maharaji.

If you catch a cold, is it because of Maharaji? So why say that Maharaji gives you any experience from meditation? It's nonsense to suggest it.

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Date: Sun, Jul 23, 2000 at 23:58:53 (GMT)
From: G
Email: None
To: Shroomananda
Subject: If someone gave you a cold pure glass of water
Message:
By saying 'made some claim that you believed about him'
and 'later said that he hadn't made the claim', it sounds like you are implicitly agreeing that he made these claims and now says he didn't. He's not telling the truth, true? If it doesn't matter to you that he's a liar, why not just admit it?

One assumption that I'd like to challenge you on is that he is that he 'gave' you the 'water', i.e. the experience, that he is the 'water-giver', that he 'offers you' the experience. Why do you say that? Do you think there is some hocus-pocus going on?

'What the water-giver calls himself or doesn't call himself or claims not to call himself is irrelevant to quenching my thirst.'

He's calling himself the 'water-giver' and you believe him, so that does have an effect on you, not him quenching your thirst. He is irrelevant to you quenching your thirst.

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Date: Sun, Jul 23, 2000 at 11:23:47 (GMT)
From: Marolyn
Email: None
To: Shroomananda
Subject: Yes he did told you not to think: bad liar!! (nt)
Message:
NT
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Date: Sun, Jul 23, 2000 at 08:19:24 (GMT)
From: JohnT
Email: None
To: Shroomananda
Subject: ... you mean you stopped ON YOUR OWN!! (nt)
Message:
no text
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Date: Sun, Jul 23, 2000 at 07:38:34 (GMT)
From: Selene
Email: None
To: Shroomananda
Subject: you are so obvious
Message:
Give it up. So how did you get around the IP block shroom?
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Date: Sun, Jul 23, 2000 at 23:30:23 (GMT)
From: Shroomananda
Email: None
To: Selene
Subject: You'll never know, Selene! NT
Message:
NT
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Date: Mon, Jul 24, 2000 at 01:19:44 (GMT)
From: Katie
Email: None
To: Shroomananda
Subject: Can't believe you're saying this to Selene!
Message:
Do you even know anything about her? Maybe you better watch what kind of challenges you put in front of her :).
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Date: Mon, Jul 24, 2000 at 02:20:52 (GMT)
From: Selene
Email: None
To: Katie
Subject: don't overestimate me Ace.
Message:
Always wanted to say that :)
Thanks Katie
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Date: Sun, Jul 23, 2000 at 23:49:00 (GMT)
From: Selene
Email: None
To: Shroomananda
Subject: isn't that a bit arrogant? I'm sure I could
Message:
solve the mystery. or get the help I need, for free and willingly, to help me figure it out. It's not rocket science.

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Date: Sun, Jul 23, 2000 at 02:20:50 (GMT)
From: Mel Bourne
Email: None
To: Jerry
Subject: 'Forget about the rest'
Message:
Jerry

I've always had difficulty with the 'rest', but put it aside because I couldn't understand or relate to it. If what you report Maharji has said about it is correct, I'm not going to grumble, because, as you well know, I've always thought that it's not an issue. I'm glad that Maharji's apparently confirmed this, makes my practice easier, if nothing else.

Cheer up mate, just a bit more 'revisionism', you should be used to it by now.

Mel

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Date: Sun, Jul 23, 2000 at 13:15:15 (GMT)
From: Jerry
Email: None
To: Mel Bourne
Subject: 'Forget about the rest'
Message:
I've always had difficulty with the 'rest', but put it aside because I couldn't understand or relate to it.

It's not that difficult to understand if you meet it head on. Maharaji speaks out of both side of his mouth, and is a liar. First he says he's God. Then he says he isn't. Then he says he never said he was God at all.

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Date: Sun, Jul 23, 2000 at 08:32:40 (GMT)
From: JohnT
Email: None
To: Mel Bourne
Subject: Mel Bourne 'Forgets about thinking'
Message:
Hamzen: Do you believe anyone else who doesn't follow gm, could have these (K) experiences or not?

Mel: I have absolutely no idea, but it's certainly possible.

(This gem is from
Mel Bourne -:- It's not your experience I doubt, -:- Sat, Jul 22, 2000 at 09:15:33
part of the thread
Jerry -:- The mystic's proof -:- Sat, Jul 22, 2000 at 05:00:26)

So Mel, let's take this nice and slow.

1) You have no idea (if a person who does not follow gm (like buzz, for example) could have these (K) experiences.

2) You consider it's certainly possible (if a person who does not follow gm (like buzz, for example) could have these (K) experiences.

Mel, old son, your brain is not working anymore.

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Date: Sun, Jul 23, 2000 at 09:51:02 (GMT)
From: Mel Bourne
Email: None
To: JohnT
Subject: Mel Bourne 'Forgets about thinking'
Message:
John

What's the problem here? You seem to imply that I'm contradicting myself, but am I?

'1) You have no idea (if a person who does not follow gm (like buzz, for example) could have these (K) experiences.' means that I really don't know.

'2) You consider it's certainly possible (if a person who does not follow gm (like buzz, for example) could have these (K) experiences' means that I concede that, despite my ignorance on the matter, they may well have an experience.

Any fool would be able to clearly understand that this is what I meant from my first statement. I think you've been smoking too much, and that kind of over indulgence can lead to a 'two dimensional' (shallow) logic

Anyway, I hope this explains what I mean to your foggy brain.

Mel

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Date: Sun, Jul 23, 2000 at 18:46:49 (GMT)
From: JohnT
Email: None
To: Mel Bourne
Subject: Mel Bourne forgets about k and m
Message:
Thanks Mel, you've kindly made your position on K and m clear. By removing the ambiguity from your earlier declaration you have made it plain. You have the idea that maybe neither is needed for a K-like experience.

That's it. It's very simple.

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Date: Sun, Jul 23, 2000 at 11:49:01 (GMT)
From: hamzen
Email: None
To: Mel Bourne
Subject: Mel Bourne 'Forgets about thinking'
Message:
So the fact that gm says exactly the opposite doesn't matter?
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Date: Sun, Jul 23, 2000 at 00:37:16 (GMT)
From: buzz
Email: None
To: Jerry
Subject: 'Forget about the rest'
Message:
nice post jerry
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Date: Sat, Jul 22, 2000 at 22:19:14 (GMT)
From: Peter Paul
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: can I post here ?
Message:
ex-poster
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Date: Sun, Jul 23, 2000 at 05:01:34 (GMT)
From: Tonette
Email: None
To: Peter Paul
Subject: only if you're not die hard premie
Message:
I am so sick of them. So sick of premie speak. This is an Ex-Premie forum. If you still just LOVE Maharaji then it is better if you go to Elan Vital. Or any number of other sites. If you are a cult member in recovery then this is your forum. We are here to support each other and form a game plan of retalitation.
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Date: Sun, Jul 23, 2000 at 05:27:28 (GMT)
From: Joey
Email: None
To: Tonette
Subject: only if you're not die hard premie
Message:
While I agree with the sentiments expressed in your post, I disagree with the last part of your last sentence-
'and form a game plan of retaliation'.

While the internet serves as an excellent means to bring as much information and the light of day on what m and his cult are really all about...my own view is that this is NOT the place to plan strategic action against the cult, for the simple reason that we tip our hands in so doing.

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Date: Sun, Jul 23, 2000 at 05:40:56 (GMT)
From: Tonete
Email: None
To: Joey
Subject: True but...
Message:
We should never tip our hand but we should also stay in touch with each other and perhaps someday come together off of the forum network to expose the fat bastard! At the very least, expose Elan Vital as the 'not for profit'; 'charity';'church'? filing it has with the US Government. It's fine to educate and help premies and ex-premies with their recovery. However, I think that Maharaji has a day of judgement coming. SOON! And this is just the place to organize it! Legally and peacefully. Like in a court of law.
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Date: Sun, Jul 23, 2000 at 06:12:43 (GMT)
From: Joey
Email: None
To: Tonete
Subject: True but...
Message:
Again Tonette, I agree with much of what you have to say, but let's take a closer look at it.

We should never tip our hand but we should also stay in touch with each other and perhaps someday come together off of the forum network to expose the fat bastard!

What makes you think that there aren't participants of this forum who are contemplating and planning legal and civil action against the cult, either individually or in association with others whom they have trust and confidence in ?

I'd also add, that it would be an excellent move for those people to include the resources and guidance of outside professionals such as those affiliated with the American Family Foundation, and perhaps some are already doing exactly that.

At the very least, expose Elan Vital as the 'not for profit'; 'charity';'church'? filing it has with the US Government.

An excellent topic of conversation, and I've done some research on that subject which I'd like to bring forward in another post or thread. ( Not now, if you don't mind...I don't know what time zone you're in, but where I am, I'm getting ready for some celestial slumber:)

It's fine to educate and help premies and ex-premies with their recovery. However, I think that Maharaji has a day of judgement coming. SOON! And this is just the place to organize it! Legally and peacefully. Like in a court of law.

It's that last part of the statement that I've put in bold type that I respectfully disagree with.
This is NOT 'just the place to organize it', because by planning strategic action against the cult on this forum, we'd be tipping our hands, which you've aleady agreed isn't such a wise move.
Finally we should remember, this is a discussion forum and NOT 'Like a court of law.'
There is a difference.

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Date: Sun, Jul 23, 2000 at 06:59:29 (GMT)
From: Sir Dave (Secret Agent)
Email: sirdavid12@hotmail.com
To: Joey
Subject: True but... the only reason that
Message:
The only reason that secret agent stuff shouldn't be discussed here is so that Maharaji & Co don't get wind of what we're doing. He is after all, a totally insincere, lying bastard.

I spent about an hour getting that wretched Qucktime program downloaded so I could listen to his codswallop speech about him never saying he was God. Then I realised that Quicktime had messed up my default plugins so I had to uninstall it.

Anyway, email is the best way to plan the downfall of Humpty Dumpty.

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Date: Sun, Jul 23, 2000 at 01:31:09 (GMT)
From: Salam
Email: None
To: Peter Paul
Subject: can I post here ?
Message:
If you ex posted here you know what to do, I suggest you read the introduction page about the forum
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Date: Sat, Jul 22, 2000 at 23:00:44 (GMT)
From: Marianne
Email: None
To: Peter Paul
Subject: can I post here ?
Message:
Did you ever live in Michigan?
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Date: Sat, Jul 22, 2000 at 23:43:56 (GMT)
From: Selene
Email: None
To: Marianne
Subject: Why are you asking?
Message:
weird
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Date: Sun, Jul 23, 2000 at 04:24:03 (GMT)
From: Marianne
Email: None
To: Selene
Subject: Why are you asking?
Message:
Geez Selene, take a chill pill. I had an old friend named Peter Paul when I lived in Michigan -- that's why.

Marianne

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Date: Sun, Jul 23, 2000 at 04:30:46 (GMT)
From: Selene
Email: None
To: Marianne
Subject: geez Marianne take a chill pill
Message:
I was just asking.
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