Forum V: Archive
Compiled: Wed, Aug 02, 2000 at 01:36:49 (GMT)
From: Jul 20, 2000 To: Jul 28, 2000 Page: 3 Of: 5


Stonor -:- Knowledge of 'knowledge'? (Khechari-Mudra +) -:- Sat, Jul 22, 2000 at 19:09:23 (GMT)
__ Lurkex -:- About nectar and boring ashram jobs. -:- Mon, Jul 24, 2000 at 00:21:42 (GMT)
__ __ Stonor -:- About delayed response . . . -:- Wed, Jul 26, 2000 at 11:03:05 (GMT)
__ Stonor -:- Try again for that link, sorry! -:- Sun, Jul 23, 2000 at 02:59:55 (GMT)
__ Sir Dave -:- Knowledge of 'knowledge'? (Khechari-Mudra +) -:- Sat, Jul 22, 2000 at 23:50:01 (GMT)
__ __ Stonor -:- Knowledge of 'knowledge'? (+ another who 'knows') -:- Sun, Jul 23, 2000 at 13:48:39 (GMT)
__ __ Salam -:- Knowledge of 'knowledge'? (Khechari-Mudra +) -:- Sun, Jul 23, 2000 at 02:04:10 (GMT)
__ Gregg -:- another tounge technique... -:- Sat, Jul 22, 2000 at 21:46:37 (GMT)
__ __ Stonor -:- another tounge technique... -:- Sat, Jul 22, 2000 at 22:00:14 (GMT)
__ __ __ G -:- another tounge technique... -:- Sun, Jul 23, 2000 at 22:08:19 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Stonor -:- another tongue technique... -:- Tues, Jul 25, 2000 at 00:06:08 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ G -:- another tongue technique... -:- Tues, Jul 25, 2000 at 00:27:10 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Stonor -:- techniques... -:- Tues, Jul 25, 2000 at 02:03:49 (GMT)
__ __ __ buzz -:- another tounge technique... -:- Sun, Jul 23, 2000 at 00:33:39 (GMT)
__ __ buzz -:- another tounge technique... -:- Sat, Jul 22, 2000 at 21:52:23 (GMT)
__ buzz -:- Knowledge of 'knowledge'? (Khechari-Mudra +) -:- Sat, Jul 22, 2000 at 21:43:46 (GMT)

Jim -:- What the fuck is this shit? -:- Sat, Jul 22, 2000 at 17:32:33 (GMT)
__ Bill -:- JIM -:- Sun, Jul 23, 2000 at 03:29:40 (GMT)
__ Salam -:- Just as you said, weird and illudede no more -:- Sun, Jul 23, 2000 at 02:08:53 (GMT)
__ P-man -:- What the fuck is this shit? -:- Sun, Jul 23, 2000 at 01:28:30 (GMT)
__ Dr Calm -:- Aggressive Abuse?Testosterone Overload?(nt) -:- Sun, Jul 23, 2000 at 01:01:28 (GMT)
__ buzz -:- What the fuck is this shit? -:- Sat, Jul 22, 2000 at 21:46:27 (GMT)
__ Shroomananda -:- edited -:- Sat, Jul 22, 2000 at 20:06:34 (GMT)
__ __ Tonette -:- Why don't you shut the fuck up! -:- Sat, Jul 22, 2000 at 20:36:20 (GMT)
__ __ __ Shroomananda -:- I haven't reached the point where I can practice -:- Sun, Jul 23, 2000 at 07:09:19 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ sb -:- You are such a fanatical cult member!! -:- Sun, Jul 23, 2000 at 13:15:19 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Hal -:- Shroo you rigid narrow minded cultie... -:- Sun, Jul 23, 2000 at 12:53:08 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ POOR SHROO -:- So Deluded and Poluted by M and K NT -:- Sun, Jul 23, 2000 at 12:33:01 (GMT)
__ __ __ Salam -:- Why don't you shut the fuck up Shroomananda.!! -:- Sun, Jul 23, 2000 at 02:14:03 (GMT)
__ __ Stonor -:- Hey, Jim. When you were in the 'cult' do you -:- Sat, Jul 22, 2000 at 20:18:41 (GMT)
__ __ Jim -:- And ANOTHER stupid question from you! -:- Sat, Jul 22, 2000 at 20:12:21 (GMT)
__ __ __ Shroomananda -:- I don't remember what the other one or two names -:- Sun, Jul 23, 2000 at 07:33:18 (GMT)

buzz -:- breathless -:- Sat, Jul 22, 2000 at 13:58:28 (GMT)
__ Hal -:- breathless -:- Sat, Jul 22, 2000 at 19:41:48 (GMT)
__ __ buzz -:- breathless -:- Sat, Jul 22, 2000 at 21:48:37 (GMT)
__ __ __ hal -:- breathless -:- Sun, Jul 23, 2000 at 12:29:11 (GMT)

Jean-Michel -:- Cyber Satsang link !!!!!!! -:- Sat, Jul 22, 2000 at 13:38:27 (GMT)
__ Salam -:- They forgot to ask my Visa card number..nt -:- Sat, Jul 22, 2000 at 15:17:11 (GMT)

Sir Dave -:- Hey up - you're all head and shoulders above -:- Sat, Jul 22, 2000 at 12:58:41 (GMT)
__ Selene -:- David -:- Sat, Jul 22, 2000 at 17:17:36 (GMT)
__ __ Joey -:- David -:- Sat, Jul 22, 2000 at 20:27:44 (GMT)
__ __ __ Sir Dave -:- David -:- Sun, Jul 23, 2000 at 00:33:15 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ KMDarling -:- Hi David -:- Tues, Jul 25, 2000 at 01:25:01 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ cq -:- pardon me 2 B so rude 4 butting in right now but -:- Tues, Jul 25, 2000 at 17:15:57 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Selene -:- haha love you and your post -:- Sun, Jul 23, 2000 at 00:39:50 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Sir Dave -:- Spam spam spam spam premie spam -:- Sun, Jul 23, 2000 at 01:27:14 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Selene -:- no I don't get it -:- Sun, Jul 23, 2000 at 05:42:09 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Salam -:- Spam spam spam spam premie spam -:- Sun, Jul 23, 2000 at 02:19:29 (GMT)
__ __ __ Tonette -:- Your daughter -:- Sat, Jul 22, 2000 at 20:42:24 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Sir Dave -:- Your daughter -:- Sun, Jul 23, 2000 at 00:25:31 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Tonette -:- I might get her to try e-mail -:- Sun, Jul 23, 2000 at 05:13:43 (GMT)

Extre Extra -:- Read All About It -:- Sat, Jul 22, 2000 at 08:06:14 (GMT)
__ la-ex -:- Read All About It/new opp. to express gratitude -:- Sat, Jul 22, 2000 at 15:11:48 (GMT)
__ __ bill -:- Read All About It/new opp. to express gratitude -:- Sun, Jul 23, 2000 at 01:09:31 (GMT)
__ __ Lurkex -:- Julio Castro is still in!? Can you access him -:- Sat, Jul 22, 2000 at 17:59:06 (GMT)
__ Mel Bourne -:- Just a change in presentation ..that's all (NT) -:- Sat, Jul 22, 2000 at 09:03:38 (GMT)
__ __ Sir David -:- Just a change in LIES .. that's all -:- Sun, Jul 23, 2000 at 07:04:53 (GMT)
__ __ Salam -:- So Mel is now the official PR officer between gm -:- Sat, Jul 22, 2000 at 16:39:13 (GMT)
__ __ JohnT -:- ..you dream, fool yourself and lie ..that's all NT -:- Sat, Jul 22, 2000 at 10:10:48 (GMT)

whoever -:- Please: some advice -:- Sat, Jul 22, 2000 at 06:07:26 (GMT)
__ Zelda -:- Lots of good advice here -:- Sun, Jul 23, 2000 at 05:50:43 (GMT)
__ Salam -:- All you had to do is ask..nt -:- Sun, Jul 23, 2000 at 02:11:10 (GMT)
__ Joe -:- Gratuitous Advice -:- Sat, Jul 22, 2000 at 22:56:51 (GMT)
__ __ Katie -:- Very Good Advice, Joe -:- Sun, Jul 23, 2000 at 13:50:40 (GMT)
__ __ __ Tie her to a tree -:- and let Ted Patrick cock whip her NT -:- Mon, Jul 24, 2000 at 16:17:29 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Joe -:- Cute ----- but I oppose force deprogramming -:- Mon, Jul 24, 2000 at 16:36:08 (GMT)
__ X -:- Please: some advice -:- Sat, Jul 22, 2000 at 22:34:38 (GMT)
__ __ Joey -:- hey X , you anonymous dweeb ... -:- Sat, Jul 22, 2000 at 22:49:44 (GMT)
__ __ __ X -:- hey X , you anonymous dweeb ... -:- Sat, Jul 22, 2000 at 22:58:06 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Joey -:- hey X , you anonymous dweeb ... -:- Sun, Jul 23, 2000 at 00:50:05 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Selene -:- so why keep posting as X? -:- Sun, Jul 23, 2000 at 00:47:42 (GMT)
__ Brian -:- Practice tolerance -:- Sat, Jul 22, 2000 at 19:55:44 (GMT)
__ __ gerry -:- did you take a stupid pill, brian? NT -:- Sat, Jul 22, 2000 at 21:35:25 (GMT)
__ __ __ Joey -:- speaking of pills, gerry.... -:- Sat, Jul 22, 2000 at 22:24:54 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ gErRy -:- You can pull that only once per summer, Joey... -:- Sun, Jul 23, 2000 at 02:51:38 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Joey -:- OK ger, no more lawn mowing jokes this summer... -:- Sun, Jul 23, 2000 at 05:10:17 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Selene -:- if whoever was sincere -:- Sun, Jul 23, 2000 at 05:54:29 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Joey -:- if whoever was sincere -:- Sun, Jul 23, 2000 at 06:20:10 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Selene -:- shhh do not let them know you like me -:- Sun, Jul 23, 2000 at 06:43:32 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Joey -:- ah, fuck da whole lot of em :::)) -:- Sun, Jul 23, 2000 at 06:58:28 (GMT)
__ __ Jim -:- Naw, I say accept your human nature -:- Sat, Jul 22, 2000 at 20:05:30 (GMT)
__ Tonette -:- If you really love her -:- Sat, Jul 22, 2000 at 17:35:36 (GMT)
__ __ Joey -:- If you really love her -:- Sat, Jul 22, 2000 at 22:03:51 (GMT)
__ Susan -:- good book for you -:- Sat, Jul 22, 2000 at 17:33:22 (GMT)
__ __ Selene -:- thanks Susan -:- Sat, Jul 22, 2000 at 17:40:18 (GMT)
__ Elaine -:- Please: some advice -:- Sat, Jul 22, 2000 at 15:14:47 (GMT)
__ __ Jerry -:- Please: some advice -:- Sat, Jul 22, 2000 at 15:36:45 (GMT)
__ __ __ gerry -:- whoever: Ignore Elaine, she's a cult member too -:- Sat, Jul 22, 2000 at 16:06:50 (GMT)
__ A.P. -:- Been there also -:- Sat, Jul 22, 2000 at 14:05:45 (GMT)
__ JohnT -:- Please: some advice -:- Sat, Jul 22, 2000 at 09:53:43 (GMT)
__ __ Lotus Eater -:- to JohnT, thank you thank you thank you nt -:- Sun, Jul 23, 2000 at 06:24:39 (GMT)
__ __ cq -:- John, bravo. Good advice IMO. (nt) -:- Sat, Jul 22, 2000 at 16:47:22 (GMT)
__ Been through this -:- Please: some advice -:- Sat, Jul 22, 2000 at 06:18:33 (GMT)
__ __ Selene -:- that is well intentioned advice?? -:- Sat, Jul 22, 2000 at 08:42:42 (GMT)
__ __ __ been through this -:- that is well intentioned advice?? -:- Sat, Jul 22, 2000 at 09:57:32 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ JohnT -:- that is well intentioned advice?? -:- Sat, Jul 22, 2000 at 10:30:28 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Selene -:- come on JohnT you know I am an ex -:- Sat, Jul 22, 2000 at 16:31:27 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ JohnT -:- come on JohnT you know I am an ex -:- Sun, Jul 23, 2000 at 05:52:24 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Selene -:- yeah well 'been through this' is a good writer -:- Sun, Jul 23, 2000 at 05:58:36 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Been through This -:- yeah well 'been through this' is a good writer -:- Mon, Jul 24, 2000 at 03:43:58 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Selene -:- RE: Selene Hello -:- Mon, Jul 24, 2000 at 03:56:33 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Been thru -:- RE: Selene Hello??? -:- Mon, Jul 24, 2000 at 05:17:30 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Selene -:- you could start by posting by your real fake name -:- Mon, Jul 24, 2000 at 05:32:47 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Been through This -:- you could start by posting by your real fake name -:- Mon, Jul 24, 2000 at 10:13:02 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Selene -:- well the problem is who I think you are -:- Mon, Jul 24, 2000 at 17:21:27 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Been Trough tis -:- well the problem is who I think you are -:- Tues, Jul 25, 2000 at 04:32:45 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Selene -:- I believe it was Been through this. -:- Tues, Jul 25, 2000 at 04:41:54 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Been through this -:- I believe it was Been through this. -:- Tues, Jul 25, 2000 at 09:19:34 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Selene -:- then like I said -:- Tues, Jul 25, 2000 at 16:01:27 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Joey -:- you could start by posting by your real fake name -:- Mon, Jul 24, 2000 at 13:16:58 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Been through this -:- you could start by posting by your real fake name -:- Tues, Jul 25, 2000 at 04:40:05 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Joey -:- you could start by posting by your real fake name -:- Tues, Jul 25, 2000 at 07:19:03 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Selene -:- anonymity at it's finest -:- Mon, Jul 24, 2000 at 18:40:25 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Been through this -:- that is well intentioned advice?? -:- Sat, Jul 22, 2000 at 11:26:43 (GMT)
__ __ Salam -:- and the verdict is....... nt -:- Sat, Jul 22, 2000 at 06:32:00 (GMT)
__ __ __ Been through this -:- and the verdict is....... nt -:- Sat, Jul 22, 2000 at 06:36:03 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ RobertB -:- Good luck - hope this helps -:- Sat, Jul 22, 2000 at 13:42:39 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Tonette -:- Father leaves his wife and one year old -:- Sat, Jul 22, 2000 at 17:28:40 (GMT)

Zelda -:- Dont miss EV Disclaimer in thread below by Jtf -:- Sat, Jul 22, 2000 at 05:00:55 (GMT)
__ Stonor -:- Hi Zelda! (OT) -:- Mon, Jul 24, 2000 at 00:39:47 (GMT)

Jerry -:- The mystic's proof -:- Sat, Jul 22, 2000 at 05:00:26 (GMT)
__ Mel Bourne -:- The mystic's proof -:- Sat, Jul 22, 2000 at 08:43:27 (GMT)
__ __ Lotus Eater -:- to Mel, peaches and onions -:- Sun, Jul 23, 2000 at 06:07:24 (GMT)
__ __ __ Mel Bourne -:- to Mel, peaches and onions -:- Sun, Jul 23, 2000 at 10:16:45 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Lotus Eater -:- this isn't some silly game -:- Sun, Jul 23, 2000 at 21:32:59 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Jim -:- You're trapped on this one, Mel -:- Sun, Jul 23, 2000 at 14:22:07 (GMT)
__ __ gerry -:- Snorrrrrr MelBoring... -:- Sat, Jul 22, 2000 at 16:35:50 (GMT)
__ __ Jerry -:- You miss the point -:- Sat, Jul 22, 2000 at 13:14:05 (GMT)
__ __ hamzen -:- It's not your experience I doubt, -:- Sat, Jul 22, 2000 at 08:54:23 (GMT)
__ __ __ Mel Bourne -:- It's not your experience I doubt, -:- Sat, Jul 22, 2000 at 09:15:33 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ hamzen -:- Then you to are in major disagreement with gm -:- Sat, Jul 22, 2000 at 10:47:22 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Mel Bourne -:- Then you to are in major disagreement with gm -:- Sun, Jul 23, 2000 at 01:42:04 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ hamzen -:- Then you to are in major disagreement with gm -:- Sun, Jul 23, 2000 at 03:44:54 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Mel Bourne -:- Then you to are in major disagreement with gm -:- Sun, Jul 23, 2000 at 11:20:10 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ hamzen -:- Then you to are in major disagreement with gm -:- Sun, Jul 23, 2000 at 22:59:20 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Katie -:- Very good post, Hamzen. And Mel... -:- Mon, Jul 24, 2000 at 01:00:10 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ hamzen -:- mel, your post's blank, and has been for hours -:- Sun, Jul 23, 2000 at 15:41:44 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ buzz -:- Then you to are in major disagreement with gm -:- Sat, Jul 22, 2000 at 12:43:55 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ hamzen -:- Errr buzz I was speaking to Mel not you (nt) -:- Sat, Jul 22, 2000 at 21:46:58 (GMT)
__ buzz -:- The mystic's proof -:- Sat, Jul 22, 2000 at 05:07:38 (GMT)
__ __ JohnT -:- The mystic's proof (aka stinking thinking) -:- Sat, Jul 22, 2000 at 09:16:10 (GMT)
__ __ __ Mel Bourne -:- The mystic's proof (aka stinking thinking) -:- Sun, Jul 23, 2000 at 01:58:55 (GMT)
__ __ __ ham -:- 'Because k works for me, m must be OK' -:- Sat, Jul 22, 2000 at 10:55:44 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ buzz -:- 'Because k works for me, m must be OK' -:- Sat, Jul 22, 2000 at 12:41:04 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ cq -:- 'Cos heroin works for me, my dealer must be OK'?nt -:- Sat, Jul 22, 2000 at 16:55:50 (GMT)
__ __ __ JohnT -:- More stinking thinking -:- Sat, Jul 22, 2000 at 09:26:32 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Mel Brooks -:- More stinking thinking -:- Sun, Jul 23, 2000 at 02:10:03 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ JohnT -:- Mel's stinking thinking -:- Sun, Jul 23, 2000 at 06:37:58 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ buzz -:- More stinking thinking -:- Sat, Jul 22, 2000 at 12:38:40 (GMT)

buzz -:- med -:- Sat, Jul 22, 2000 at 04:53:24 (GMT)
__ jondon -:- Bajji -:- Sun, Jul 23, 2000 at 10:27:27 (GMT)
__ Salam -:- Can you elaborate a bit on this bajji thing, who -:- Sat, Jul 22, 2000 at 05:55:24 (GMT)
__ __ buzz -:- Can you elaborate a bit on this bajji thing, who -:- Sat, Jul 22, 2000 at 12:37:48 (GMT)
__ __ __ Salm -:- So you are saying that there is this person that -:- Sat, Jul 22, 2000 at 15:44:04 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Tonette -:- He may not be able to write -:- Sat, Jul 22, 2000 at 17:07:27 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Salam -:- He may not be able to write -:- Sat, Jul 22, 2000 at 17:21:39 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Selene -:- I would not write -:- Sat, Jul 22, 2000 at 21:52:12 (GMT)

la-ex -:- carolyn myss on gurus... -:- Sat, Jul 22, 2000 at 03:08:56 (GMT)
__ Joe -:- Wow, fits Maharaji to a 'T' -:- Sat, Jul 22, 2000 at 04:53:37 (GMT)
__ __ Elaine -:- I agree - M will run away nt -:- Sat, Jul 22, 2000 at 15:34:29 (GMT)
__ __ Jean-Michel -:- Rawat's had huge funraisings for Amaroo in 99 -:- Sat, Jul 22, 2000 at 09:49:16 (GMT)
__ __ __ Joey -:- J-M, that just might explain the following -:- Sat, Jul 22, 2000 at 20:14:24 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ V.Interested -:- Where do you live? -:- Tues, Jul 25, 2000 at 03:41:12 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Selene -:- Joey lives inside a patch I swallowed last week -:- Tues, Jul 25, 2000 at 03:48:46 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Jean-Michel -:- I don't think so -:- Mon, Jul 24, 2000 at 07:52:39 (GMT)
__ __ __ G -:- That is true -:- Sat, Jul 22, 2000 at 14:41:49 (GMT)
__ __ __ hamzen -:- I'll give him his due, as a con he's a good one. -:- Sat, Jul 22, 2000 at 11:00:00 (GMT)
__ gErRy -:- goober should listen to Ms Myss... (nt) -:- Sat, Jul 22, 2000 at 03:33:40 (GMT)
__ __ gerry -:- ps to goob... -:- Sat, Jul 22, 2000 at 03:36:08 (GMT)


Date: Sat, Jul 22, 2000 at 19:09:23 (GMT)
From: Stonor
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: Knowledge of 'knowledge'? (Khechari-Mudra +)
Message:
Found this link by chance on a search, and I'm not sure if it was posted when Khechari-Mudra was being discussed a month or so ago, but thought I should post this, as it might be of interest to others. What is fascinating to me is it's contextualization of the nectar-technique within a more complex system, and explaining its 'function'. Also of interest, is that it mentions that these 'abilities' can be developed naturally or through accident - ie. a 'guru's' guidance or special techniques are not the only path.

A brief excerpt from Vishuddhi-Chakra and Bindu-Chakra:

There is a very effective exercise for controlling the Vishuddhi-Chakra called Khechari-Mudra which consists of rolling the tongue so far back that it touches the throat. The throat forms a passageway connected to the nasal and sinus cavities, and these hormones travel down along the mucous membranes. When the ambrosia reaches the tip of the tongue it mixes with the saliva and then comes to the larynx.

(Source, for the curious: Publisher: Paramhans Swami Maheshwarananda, International Sri Deep Madhavananda Ashram Fellowship 1040 Vienna, Schikanedergasses 12/13, Austria / Europe)

I'll be looking forward to comments from those who know more about this than I do, although I have learned some of the techniques mentioned, if not Khechari-Mudra. And it certainly makes it clear that m is no fount of 'knowledge,' and the 'goal' is not at all as he describes, or has he described any at all besides mindfree 'bliss'?

Stonor


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Date: Mon, Jul 24, 2000 at 00:21:42 (GMT)
From: Lurkex
Email: None
To: Stonor
Subject: About nectar and boring ashram jobs.
Message:
This is all very interesting. I, too, went for the super-yogi thing and rubbed away at my under-tongue tendon for ages until my tongue went up to around between my eyes. I can't remember what inspired me to do it. I was always reading esoteric scriptures and yoga books from other lineages trying to get the 'real dope' because, quite frankly, Lardy's knowledge felt pretty watered down to me, and if I was going to give up having boyfriends and money and choice, I at least wanted some supreme thrills. I had been really into yoga before knowledge, and I was strongly discouraged from practicing once in the shram (Ira Woods, for example, specifically told me not to!). Plus I was probably deadly bored in some shit job I had while living in the shram.

Anyway, it took several months, and it hurt a bit, but not much more than after doing weights in the gymn, and once it was up it was up. Sort of an oral spiritual Viagra. I absolutely LOVED it and I still do now, at least 16 years after leaving the Lard.I really related to someone's post above about doing it while listening to Bach in the bath. Just my style! I also find myself automatically doing it in times of stress, like when I'm driving exhausted and I know I have to stay with it. And I follow my breath in a very relaxed sort of way too. It just became automatic for me, and now that I've come back into living in my body and emotions and loving it all, it is different in that it isn't a dissociative thing, just a sort of power-assist and centering tool.

I'm really grateful to myself for all the effort I put in to have this particular piece hardwired in. I'm annoyed that I gave up my yoga practice, which was really good for my body (I got ill in the latter years of my time with the Lard and am still struggling with it now). But the tongue thing has been quite helpful. It feels good for me to say this and attribute some value to my precious teens and twenties, because I have had to UN-hardwire so many other pieces that got downloaded into my poor brain as I gazed up entranced from lotus-foot level.

I don't attribute it to Margie at all. In fact, he was the lousiest meditation teacher imaginable. No information whatsoever on what to do when your mind wanders and you feel like hitting the wall, or on anything else. Because he doesn't know.Because he doesn't meditate.I remember around the time when Iwas leaving, picking up a little book on meditation by Stephen Levine, and in one page he gave me more good advice than Ihad had in 12 years from Lardy. Nowadays I do lots of meditative practices, mostly involving various kinds of movement and relaxed breathing, but I am completely burned out on the sitting still to meditate thing. I think I have PTSD from all those hundreds of hours sitting there under a blanket not knowing why I wasn't getting enlightened or experiencing more than the occasional mini-hit of bliss. Aaaaargh!

Hey, maybe if we offer the REAL hot, juicy techniques of knowledge over here we can lure more people out of the mind-fuck. We've had the real Holy Name and the juice on the Nectar. Now someone tell us more about sound and light (yes I know it's all in Kriya Yoga, but tell us here!). Spread a rumor to premies that the true knowledge of all knowledges is available on ex-premie.org.

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Date: Wed, Jul 26, 2000 at 11:03:05 (GMT)
From: Stonor
Email: None
To: Lurkex
Subject: About delayed response . . .
Message:
Apologies Lurkex,

I've started a response, but I'm not getting enough time to finish it and this is fast going into in-active. if you don't mind I will cut and paste this post with my response over the weekend at latest.

Stonor

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Date: Sun, Jul 23, 2000 at 02:59:55 (GMT)
From: Stonor
Email: None
To: all
Subject: Try again for that link, sorry!
Message:
Vishuddhi-Chakra and Bindu-Chakra

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Date: Sat, Jul 22, 2000 at 23:50:01 (GMT)
From: Sir Dave
Email: None
To: Stonor
Subject: Knowledge of 'knowledge'? (Khechari-Mudra +)
Message:
What I call oral sex with yourself doesn't require any tendon cutting but I admit it took me a couple of weeks of constant practise before I achieved full cunnilingus. That was back in 1974 and Mahatma Ashokanand was staying in the ashram I was in (Stoke) and at the time I thought he could read my mind so I tried to think only pure thoughts and achieve a non masturbatory orgasm by doing the nectar technique.

I didn't achieve it until after Ashake-ahand had left but I was a bit dissapointed when my tongue finally entered and I was no longer a virgin because I didn't get the expected orgasm.

Years later I tried it again and did get some good buzzes although they were very unreliable. It does do something and strangely enough I was doing it this morning for a while and I kind of got half way to getting somewhere while listening to some Bach in the bath.

Like all forms of yoga, the results are unpredictable and don't always happen. Also, you might practise the technique solidly for several days before actually getting any result which could be deemed as satisfactory. When it has been satisfactory it has been very good with an indefinable tingling and falling into a kind of ectacy. Also I have sometimes experienced an almost hallucinagenic high for a while.

Definitely not a yoga technique for the faint hearted since it requires a lot of constant practise before any results are achieved. Maharaji's tongue flip to the roof of the mouth for 15 minutes doesn't come close to the amount of real effort and sheer will power needed to get the full ketchup & mustard yoga experience.

Contrary to popular opinion here, you don't taste snot because the tongue soon becomes aclimatised to the taste and doesn't taste it any more. A bit like heavy chain smokers who no longer taste their cigarettes or chocoholics who get used to the taste of chocolate after a few bars. The tongue has a cut off point where it doesn't taste any more of the same stimulus.

I have sometimes experienced an indefinable taste which is not snot, saliva or mucus but something quite nice. God only knows what it is or where it is coming from.

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Date: Sun, Jul 23, 2000 at 13:48:39 (GMT)
From: Stonor
Email: None
To: Sir Dave
Subject: Knowledge of 'knowledge'? (+ another who 'knows')
Message:
Hi Sir Dave!

I was very sorry to hear about your recent illness and glad to hear that you are recovering well and back in the fray! That Humpty Dumpty scenario would be fitting for someone who threatened his devotees that they would smash into a million pieces if they left him!

I also appreciate your personal account of the 'tongue technique'. (And 'listening to some Bach in the bath' sounds wonderful!) When I first heard of the 'nectar' meditation technique, I felt some amount of disbelief, even disgust, which may have been a bit related to the way in which it was described in some posts! ;-) But as it was the one of his four techniques which I had never practiced before, and it clearly isn't something he invented, I have been curious about it. (Didn't have the time to check out all of that last long thread on Khechari-Mudra - must go back and try to find it.) After reading that link that I posted about the chakras above, I didn't feel that it was so strange anymore. To go back a bit, I never learned to actually 'press' on my eyeballs, but to put thumbs on ears, two fingers lightly over each eye socket, the ring fingers at the corners of the nostrils and the little fingers at each corner of the mouth. I'm still not sure if I'll try Khechari-Mudra, but thanks for letting me know that if I ever do try it, I will have to make a concerted effort.

As you describe K-M as having oral sex with yourself, I thought you might appreciate this link, the most bizarre one I have EVER found, with the warning that it does contain adult material.

Glenn Scheper Knows

I clicked around a bit before I found the centre of his universe, so let me give you this link too,

The Word of God; The Production of Christ

which contains a section of Biblical support for autofellatio - just check the table of contents... He says 'God is incredibly delicious!' (Dogs do it, don't they? - I say that) He has an incomplete section on autocunnilingus because, as he says, he can't speak from personal experience. He added it this July - I had wondered about that when I found his site, particularly because he is standing with a woman in the picture on his home page.

Some of the computer-tech links on his home page could be of interest to you and other more advanced techies, as well. And I don't know why his main page link is slightly scrolled down after it has loaded.

Hope you're having a pleasant Sunday!

Stonor

PS I just remembered something - maybe Scheper's practice is not quite so extremely bizarre . . . my boyfriend around 15 years ago claimed he could do the 'Scheper' manoeuvre, and now I wish I had asked him to give me a free home demonstration (or not! :-p)! He never described it in any way like Scheper does! He just treated it as another 'amazing' thing he could do, like sitting in lotus position for hours playing guitar. He was hardly so amazing in other ways. (wry grin emoticon)

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Date: Sun, Jul 23, 2000 at 02:04:10 (GMT)
From: Salam
Email: None
To: Sir Dave
Subject: Knowledge of 'knowledge'? (Khechari-Mudra +)
Message:
I know a lot of people that could not do the technique, for some reason or another, the way I did it is to use the secound and third fingers to push my tonge slightly backwards. First time it happened I jumped, could not belive it, defenitly felt like loosing verginity.

By the way, is the above link corrupted?

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Date: Sat, Jul 22, 2000 at 21:46:37 (GMT)
From: Gregg
Email: None
To: Stonor
Subject: another tounge technique...
Message:
Other traditions maintain that a good place for the tounge during meditation is on the roof of the mouth -- no gymnastics or tendon-cutting needed. This is said to facilitate the free flow of energy down the front of the body prior to its return up the back.
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Date: Sat, Jul 22, 2000 at 22:00:14 (GMT)
From: Stonor
Email: None
To: Gregg
Subject: another tounge technique...
Message:
Hi Gregg,

That tendon cutting idea really disgusted me. Sort of like breaking your legs to get into lotus or something like that. I had never heard of any particular placement of the tongue during meditation before I heard of k, and thank you for an alternative version!

Stonor

PS to buzz, I think you get to recent exes by emailing recentexes@yahoo.com. or djrayovac@aol.com

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Date: Sun, Jul 23, 2000 at 22:08:19 (GMT)
From: G
Email: None
To: Stonor
Subject: another tounge technique...
Message:
Gregg wrote:
Other traditions maintain that a good place for the tounge during meditation is on the roof of the mouth -- no gymnastics or tendon-cutting needed. This is said to facilitate the free flow of energy down the front of the body prior to its return up the back.

Stonor responded:
Hi Gregg,
That tendon cutting idea really disgusted me. Sort of like breaking your legs to get into lotus or something like that. I had never heard of any particular placement of the tongue during meditation before I heard of k, and thank you for an alternative version!

G:
The tendon cutting (or even stretching) idea doesn't sound good to me. I figure it's there for a functional reason, perhaps so we don't swallow our tongue or for support.

Sometimes when I had racing thoughts the tongue technique helped me to calm my mind. I think that maybe it did this for me by reducing the subvocalizations I made with my tongue. I don't believe I ever read or heard this, it's more a personal observation.

Sometimes I've had 'experiences' with the tongue technique, but it's hard to describe them, I wouldn't call them 'God' or 'cosmic'. I've never felt what I would characterize as a flow of energy up and down my body. I don't think I've ever really tasted or smelled anything while doing it. I never could get my tongue way back, so I never tasted snot either.

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Date: Tues, Jul 25, 2000 at 00:06:08 (GMT)
From: Stonor
Email: None
To: G
Subject: another tongue technique...
Message:
Thank you for another good theory about 'role' of the 4th technique. It sounds good to me, but I'm not exactly getting the idea that it is necessarily worth the effort. If I were to try to do it while I was meditating, I think it would be a total distraction unless it became comfortable - and that doesn't sound likely. Did m ever give any reasoning behind this practice? From what I've read, it doesn't seem like he has.
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Date: Tues, Jul 25, 2000 at 00:27:10 (GMT)
From: G
Email: None
To: Stonor
Subject: another tongue technique...
Message:
Did m ever give any reasoning behind this practice?

m hardly talked about the meditation techniques until he did k reviews in the 80's, at which time there were some modifications. Someone asked him in one review how the techniques work and he said 'I don't know.' I have never heard him give any real reasoning behind this practice. The same is pretty much true for the other techniques as well. In the old days I believe he talked about 'Nectar', but no reason was given for why this technique would enable someone to experience 'Nectar'.

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Date: Tues, Jul 25, 2000 at 02:03:49 (GMT)
From: Stonor
Email: None
To: G
Subject: techniques...
Message:
I gather that he never drew your attention to various sensations after certain exercises because there were only the four techniques. At times I've felt that all these practices are just too complicated, but when I feel the effects of a breathing exercise or yoga posture for example, I understand better the importance of combined details. Over the years, I've learned more and more variations of postures and other practices from different teachers, and when something new is introduced, there is usually a preamble and debriefing. A guru is primarily supposed to be a teacher, no? Showing regular videos etc. is not teaching. The content of his videos and 'reviews' could not really be called 'teaching' from any transcript of his words I've read here.
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Date: Sun, Jul 23, 2000 at 00:33:39 (GMT)
From: buzz
Email: None
To: Stonor
Subject: another tounge technique...
Message:
thanks for the addresses
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Date: Sat, Jul 22, 2000 at 21:52:23 (GMT)
From: buzz
Email: None
To: Gregg
Subject: another tounge technique...
Message:
hi gregg yes i guess thats the main purpose i never really got nectar if it was supposed to be a taste my intuition or exp of it is more like aan electrical charge intensifying as the med. deepens?
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Date: Sat, Jul 22, 2000 at 21:43:46 (GMT)
From: buzz
Email: None
To: Stonor
Subject: Knowledge of 'knowledge'? (Khechari-Mudra +)
Message:
hi stoner. it seems the mudra is used very much in kriya yoga the tongue going down inside the throat i think its used to create a sort of energy dam to stimulate certain parts of the brain possibly also tofacilitate the breathless state damned uncomfortable to me ! if you search kriya yoga thers a whole bunch of postings by differant kriya groups mentioning these things plus there fist kriya is actually the holy name but done like i mentioned in an earlie posting
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Date: Sat, Jul 22, 2000 at 17:32:33 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: What the fuck is this shit?
Message:
Okay, here's a memoire from the Boston program I just found on ELK:

The Boston Event

The Boston program was really wonderful for me in so many ways. I was able to be there the day before the event, to help out and to witness the love and care being given by so many to transform the Copley Theatre into a suitable environment for Maharaji and his students to come together.

Somewhere in the middle of that magical day, I was struck with a wave of gratitude - as I invariably am whenever I have an opportunity to be at a program with Maharaji. What a gift to be able to participate in whatever way I can in what Maharaji is doing on this planet! Like everything else that has to do with Knowledge, it brings such joy to my heart. The word fortunate seems inadequate to describe how I felt to be there in the world of Knowledge, the world that the master makes possible. Blessed is more like it.

And then, to be able to listen to Maharaji speak twice the next day and have a chance to experience first-hand the incredibly simple, beautiful, clear Knowledge session video. I felt like he was showering me with such sweet gifts.

My oldest son was part of the set-up crew, and after the program was over, I had a chance to help them out with the dismantling process. I never realized before how many little parts go into the physical set-up for a program - folding tables and chairs, table covers and skirts, curtains and drapery, water coolers, etc. As I spent the next few hours removing table covers and skirts and folding them, and folding and moving chairs, the feeling I got was pure joy.

Such is the world of Knowledge.

Carole Jone
Ithaca, NY, USA

I get this weird image of this poor, deluded fool polishing chairs and giving other cult members trinket brochures waiting for the 'wave of gratitude' to hit like a drug. Okay, fine, we used to think that 'grace' was just like that. Understood. But 'grace' had a whole cosmology behind it. You know, there's the universal consciousness or 'God' or whatever you want to call it -- 'Guru Maharaj Ji' was one name we had for it -- and it was everywhere. And if you 'opened up' and 'got past your mind' and really 'surrendered', well, you might feel it. Cause it was out there. Or in there. Or something like that. 'Omnipresent', right?

But now that the cult doesn't talk about that stuff anymore, are these people actually replacing 'grace' with plain, old human emotion? As in thinking that there's gratitude 'out there' or 'in there' or however you want to say? Oceans of gratitude waiting to flood us? Not God, not some universal power, but just some emotion?

I'm sorry. I don't care what new-age truck you fell off, that's plain crazy. Emotions are mental phenomena. At least that's what they were last time I looked. Moreover, back in the day, there was even a time when we tried to transcend such common emotion, seeing it as a mere by-product of our so-called 'heightened consciousness'. Now it's ground zero.

The institutionalized infantalism of this cult is amazing.

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Date: Sun, Jul 23, 2000 at 03:29:40 (GMT)
From: Bill
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: JIM
Message:
St James, would you download from visions.org the 'unabridged' transcripts for events
#13-1163
#13-1168,1167, 1169,1170
and do an analysis.

It costs 3$ apiece.
Thanks.

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Date: Sun, Jul 23, 2000 at 02:08:53 (GMT)
From: Salam
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Just as you said, weird and illudede no more
Message:
no less, that also is true for Ivetteananda.
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Date: Sun, Jul 23, 2000 at 01:28:30 (GMT)
From: P-man
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: What the fuck is this shit?
Message:
Good point, Jim, although the Gopis carried alot of weight in our day, and their thing was mostly emotional.

The part that really gets me in this testimonial is:

What a gift to be able to participate in whatever way I can in what Maharaji is doing on this planet!

It's as though she believes Maharaji is actually making a difference. Not just in some city or state, or here and there, but on this planet.

In case you're not up to speed on the New Age, the planet is not small potatoes. That's when you're making a difference that can even affect the heavenly bodies or on a 'cellular level'.

The truth is, and anyone with common sense can see it, Maharaji makes less of a difference than a small city college in Nebraska. He does nothing in the West but encourage a bunch of spoiled kids to care about nothing but their own mood, and nothing in the East but continue a tradition of superstition.

He has done nothing with his influence to contribute anything back to humanity, and for all intents and purposes, after more than thirty years of trying, almost no one has even heard of him.

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Date: Sun, Jul 23, 2000 at 01:01:28 (GMT)
From: Dr Calm
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Aggressive Abuse?Testosterone Overload?(nt)
Message:
hhdsdtgr
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Date: Sat, Jul 22, 2000 at 21:46:27 (GMT)
From: buzz
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: What the fuck is this shit?
Message:
well said jim
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Date: Sat, Jul 22, 2000 at 20:06:34 (GMT)
From: Shroomananda
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: edited
Message:
edited
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Date: Sat, Jul 22, 2000 at 20:36:20 (GMT)
From: Tonette
Email: None
To: Shroomananda
Subject: Why don't you shut the fuck up!
Message:
This is a forum for EX-PREMIES!!! Go meditate or earn some money to send to 'The Master.' Why are you here wasting your time when you need to be a real devotee? Go fold some table clothes yourself or help with his next program you moron. You're not a Premie you're just a JERK. Go play with yourself.
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Date: Sun, Jul 23, 2000 at 07:09:19 (GMT)
From: Shroomananda
Email: None
To: Tonette
Subject: I haven't reached the point where I can practice
Message:
Knowledge and do service 24 hours a day. Sorry. But I do enjoy having 'ex' premies scream profanity at me. Shows me that I'm doing my job of providing a counterpoint for all the emotional raving I see displayed here. Besides, Tonette, someday I will be an 'ex' premie, too....when I'm six feet under the ground!
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Date: Sun, Jul 23, 2000 at 13:15:19 (GMT)
From: sb
Email: None
To: Shroomananda
Subject: You are such a fanatical cult member!!
Message:
Easy to see: You speak like one loud and clear.

Logic have left you. lARDY won, shroom, THE HUMAN BEING lost. You are in it baby. HE GOT YOU!!

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Date: Sun, Jul 23, 2000 at 12:53:08 (GMT)
From: Hal
Email: None
To: Shroomananda
Subject: Shroo you rigid narrow minded cultie...
Message:
I'm disappointed in you. I thought when you came initially that you may be able to communicate and think, you know have some honesty . You are about as flexible as a HariKrishna monk. by the way what is the difference between a premie and a follower in the Hari Krishna cult?
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Date: Sun, Jul 23, 2000 at 12:33:01 (GMT)
From: POOR SHROO
Email: None
To: Shroomananda
Subject: So Deluded and Poluted by M and K NT
Message:
ii
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Date: Sun, Jul 23, 2000 at 02:14:03 (GMT)
From: Salam
Email: None
To: Tonette
Subject: Why don't you shut the fuck up Shroomananda.!!
Message:
n
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Date: Sat, Jul 22, 2000 at 20:18:41 (GMT)
From: Stonor
Email: None
To: Shroomananda
Subject: Hey, Jim. When you were in the 'cult' do you
Message:
Hi Shroomer,

As a neutral non-anything, I can tell you that I agree with Jim on this one. This account is pathetic, and does indicate 'institutionalized infantilism', or worse. And yes, 'Sure loves the Master', and nothing else! Too bad.

Stonor

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Date: Sat, Jul 22, 2000 at 20:12:21 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Shroomananda
Subject: And ANOTHER stupid question from you!
Message:
Really, Shroom, what IS your education level? Five? Six?

And what were those OTHER names you've posted under?

And, to answer your question -- just so you don't start whining that I didn't -- I'm sure someone DID think that. Too bad they couldn't get to me and shake me out of it.

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Date: Sun, Jul 23, 2000 at 07:33:18 (GMT)
From: Shroomananda
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: I don't remember what the other one or two names
Message:
that I've posted under. Why are you so obsessed about it? I've already said that I didn't know at the time that it was against the rules and I've promised not to do it again. Why the angst?
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Date: Sat, Jul 22, 2000 at 13:58:28 (GMT)
From: buzz
Email: None
To: hal
Subject: breathless
Message:
hi hal did you get my earlier message?
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Date: Sat, Jul 22, 2000 at 19:41:48 (GMT)
From: Hal
Email: None
To: buzz
Subject: breathless
Message:
Hey Buzz,

Don't worry, you are not alone in having those kind of experiences. I don't know what they are but I tend to not really care if they are spiritual or chemical or whatever. All I know is that they were supremely enjoyable with no detrimental come down effects, unless one considers joy and contentment an undesirable side effect that is. I don't find the forum a suitable place to discuss these type of experieces though.

I usually discuss more intimate stuff on recent exes forum , which is not public. You could apply to join that if you want.

Kind regards
Hal

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Date: Sat, Jul 22, 2000 at 21:48:37 (GMT)
From: buzz
Email: None
To: Hal
Subject: breathless
Message:
hi hal thanks for the reply how do i get to this forum?
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Date: Sun, Jul 23, 2000 at 12:29:11 (GMT)
From: hal
Email: None
To: buzz
Subject: breathless
Message:
Buzz,

You send an e-mail application to recentexes@yahoo.com and the forum admin. will contact you with more info.

Namaste,
Hal

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Date: Sat, Jul 22, 2000 at 13:38:27 (GMT)
From: Jean-Michel
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: Cyber Satsang link !!!!!!!
Message:
Welcome to Radhasoami.net's
Cyber Satsang

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Date: Sat, Jul 22, 2000 at 15:17:11 (GMT)
From: Salam
Email: None
To: Jean-Michel
Subject: They forgot to ask my Visa card number..nt
Message:
nt
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Date: Sat, Jul 22, 2000 at 12:58:41 (GMT)
From: Sir Dave
Email: sirdavid12@hotmail.com
To: Everyone
Subject: Hey up - you're all head and shoulders above
Message:
above any 'master'. Thanks for your kind words down below, Katie, Katie Darling, Jim, Tonette and Salam. There's a big world out here and I'm glad I'm still in it, despite some difficulties. My heart is doing OK now (I mean my REAL heart, my blood pumper). The other heart's doing OK too and it's good to share things here and on The ANYTHING GOES Forum.

I'll be around these parts and will certainly have a few things to say. All emails will be replied to, also be assured. Thanks for those and let's stick together and help one another!

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Date: Sat, Jul 22, 2000 at 17:17:36 (GMT)
From: Selene
Email: None
To: Sir Dave
Subject: David
Message:
I meant to send email. Was so confused which email to send to.
:)
I'm glad you are doing better. You are one of the people who has helped me and kept me going these past few years and you mean a lot to me.
Sorry you had this hard time.
And, hey I still post on AG. I feel like I have my own damned forum. I should take advantage, publish my writing.....

Love you.

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Date: Sat, Jul 22, 2000 at 20:27:44 (GMT)
From: Joey
Email: None
To: Sir Dave
Subject: David
Message:
Just wanted to join Selene in saying how glad I am that you're doing better. (Then again, I wouldn't mind in joining Selene in most anything :::))

Had a wonderful week here in Montreal meeting up with local exes and also some very dear friends who came in from Florida and Puerto Rico. All greatly facilitated by your Great World Wide Link-Up.

Thank you for this, and for everything you do, and for everything you mean around here.

All the best,

Joey

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Date: Sun, Jul 23, 2000 at 00:33:15 (GMT)
From: Sir Dave
Email: sirdavid12@hotmail.com
To: Joey
Subject: David
Message:
I'm very glad Joey, that The Great Worldwide Linkup has brought some people together.

And Selene, you can always email me at the address you have already (which I don't advertise on this forum for spam reasons) or at the email address on this post.

And to the premie spammers: I am still not interested in your investment schemes or your porn sites which always disappear off the net as soon as you've told me about them.

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Date: Tues, Jul 25, 2000 at 01:25:01 (GMT)
From: KMDarling
Email: darlingwave@aol.com
To: Sir Dave
Subject: Hi David
Message:
Hi David

Thanks for your thanks.

Did I ever know you? I was an English premie briefly (before Mataji and M sent me to Spain and South America). My name was Katie Jones. Then I was around for years as Katie Baier. I've lived in the States for about 20 or more years and now I'm Katie Darling (so Igot married a few times... I'm with the right one now!). I get the feeling from your posts that I know you but maybe not.

Talking of brain research and all that stuff, have you read the most amazing, should-win-nobel-prize stuff: Molecules of Emotion, by Candace Pert? She's a biochemost who made amazing discoveries about neuropeptides.

Sorry you're sick. Me too. Have been on and off since I burnt out in the early 80's doing service (CFS).

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Date: Tues, Jul 25, 2000 at 17:15:57 (GMT)
From: cq
Email: None
To: KMDarling
Subject: pardon me 2 B so rude 4 butting in right now but
Message:
... you wouldn't be the same Katie that took the 'K' at Muswell Hill in the summer of 73 would you?

Just wondering ...

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Date: Sun, Jul 23, 2000 at 00:39:50 (GMT)
From: Selene
Email: None
To: Sir Dave
Subject: haha love you and your post
Message:
Good to see your spirits up. We have so much going for us.
I am like you with email.
It's OK. I'm just happy to hear you are doing well.
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Date: Sun, Jul 23, 2000 at 01:27:14 (GMT)
From: Sir Dave
Email: None
To: Selene
Subject: Spam spam spam spam premie spam
Message:
Here's a bit of premie spam which I got today and which they keep sending me:

Hello,

We are a profitable Internet Shopping Company and we're about to launch a multi-million dollar advertising campaign. We'd like to send you FREE INFORMATION on investment and/or store ownership opportunities. If you're looking for a sound investment opportunity or are interested in possibly becoming your own boss, CLICK HERE FOR FREE INFORMATION

There is absolutely no obligation when you request this free information package. All contact information you supply will be kept strictly confidential and used only for this specific purpose.

Thank you for your time!


Anyone else get this stuff?

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Date: Sun, Jul 23, 2000 at 05:42:09 (GMT)
From: Selene
Email: None
To: Sir Dave
Subject: no I don't get it
Message:
.........Fringe as always.

Greetings from the edge. Sorry you get that shit.
Use more filters. I love em.

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Date: Sun, Jul 23, 2000 at 02:19:29 (GMT)
From: Salam
Email: None
To: Sir Dave
Subject: Spam spam spam spam premie spam
Message:
I have not, or better, at least not yet.
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Date: Sat, Jul 22, 2000 at 20:42:24 (GMT)
From: Tonette
Email: netguest42@yahoo.com
To: Sir David
Subject: Your daughter
Message:
Hey, I have a 9 year old little girl who outgrows clothes right and left. Some of them are pretty damn nice. My girl is 4'9' and 100 lbs. Most of them worn once, dresses that had to be bought for special occassions. She is such a tomboy. If you will e-mail me with your address I would love to find a home for some of these things instead of giving them to salvation army.
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Date: Sun, Jul 23, 2000 at 00:25:31 (GMT)
From: Sir Dave
Email: sirdavid12@hotmail.com
To: Tonette
Subject: Your daughter
Message:
Thanks. Actually, I've got two daughters of my own and one step daughter who are nearly eight and nine years old. I'll email you and my daughters would love to correspond with yours via email if that's applicable.
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Date: Sun, Jul 23, 2000 at 05:13:43 (GMT)
From: Tonette
Email: netguest42@yahoo.com
To: Sir Dave
Subject: I might get her to try e-mail
Message:
My daughter might try e-mail. She loves any kind of mail. Do yours use it? Mine has never tried it. But she does like mail so what the hell, we could give it a try.
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Date: Sat, Jul 22, 2000 at 08:06:14 (GMT)
From: Extre Extra
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: Read All About It
Message:
Latest News Hot Off the Press..... What you've all been waiting for.... MAHARAJI IS RETIRING...this is why he is doing satelite broadcasts.....he no longer wants to do public events...less and less so.....he now wants his premies to take responsibility and tell people about the Knowledge.....then the new aspirants, few and far between as they are, will be given knowledge by video.....he wants to live a quiet life with his family far away from the critical eye of the public, press and exes. He is afraid things will become too public and that one of you exes will expose the techniques on T.V. and then where will he be? ....there will be no money coming in to support his family in the style they are used to (as the scam will be exposed.)

This was told by a PAM.... could even be Gurucharnanand himself, who will be retiring as well to play golf and tennis instead, following M's agya...... even though perhaps he would still prefer to show people the Knowlege tecniques if he really had the choice.

From Extra Extra

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Date: Sat, Jul 22, 2000 at 15:11:48 (GMT)
From: la-ex
Email: None
To: Extre Extra
Subject: Read All About It/new opp. to express gratitude
Message:
Dear extra-I wasn't sure how much of your post was facetious and how much was serious,but to add a little bit to your retirement news:
I was recently told by a semi-PAM that the organization will never be the same again. m will only go to places that want him and have a need for him(?), there will be no more tours per se,he will spend more time between malibu-india-amaroo.amaroo could be where he retires or at least spends a lot more of his time.he has promised some of the faithful that they can retire in amaroo when they get older.One guy, an instructor named Julio Castro, told m that the thought of retiring on a parched piece of land in amaroo turned him off.He said m was 'taken aback' by his honesty.(I'm sure m is 'taken aback' by any trace of honesty around him)
A new 'opportunity' will be announced in the next week or so.m will be giving the premies an 'opportunity' to be sponsors of his 'work', by contributing a minimum of $50/month to support his work.The $50 will allow them to watch the satellite videos at home, or attend them in anyone elses home.Most of the halls will probably close down.Aspirants will watch videos for awhile, and then get knowledge by watching a dvd video of m doing the techniques.Instructors are responsible for achieving 'measurable results' with the new premies.
Dying a slow death,while trying to eliminate all traces of cultism.
Wonder what storage facility the crown and mala are in?
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Date: Sun, Jul 23, 2000 at 01:09:31 (GMT)
From: bill
Email: None
To: la-ex
Subject: Read All About It/new opp. to express gratitude
Message:
they are in that storage 'closet' right by his bedroom in the
house blueprints.
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Date: Sat, Jul 22, 2000 at 17:59:06 (GMT)
From: Lurkex
Email: None
To: la-ex
Subject: Julio Castro is still in!? Can you access him
Message:
through your PAM friend?

He is such a great guy and I was in Spain with him in the seventies and I would love to support him in being even more HONEST with himself and the Lard del Universo.

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Date: Sat, Jul 22, 2000 at 09:03:38 (GMT)
From: Mel Bourne
Email: None
To: Extre Extra
Subject: Just a change in presentation ..that's all (NT)
Message:
nt
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Date: Sun, Jul 23, 2000 at 07:04:53 (GMT)
From: Sir David
Email: None
To: Mel Bourne
Subject: Just a change in LIES .. that's all
Message:

'When THAT God comes to Earth, we can serve Him and it's beyond liberation blah blah blah'

(Maharaji from the late seventies)

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Date: Sat, Jul 22, 2000 at 16:39:13 (GMT)
From: Salam
Email: None
To: Mel Bourne
Subject: So Mel is now the official PR officer between gm
Message:
and this forum. And you think it is agreeable too hah? Is the new failed image of many of an organization that is standing on cruches

just a change in presentation..that is all

and last time also just change of presentation.

does that mean the message is still the same.

Does that mean he is still really god, but it is not politically correct to mention it.
Do we still have to kiss his socks.
Work for him for nothing.
Give him 10% of our earning.
And do all the other things that he says we should not do.

I remember him saying that without the presence (physical) of the perfect master (aka,gm) knowledge will not work. Can you tell us pleeeaaassseeeee how that is going to happen on DVD? Is he going to creep through the wires across the wall into the room and strech his hand through the tv and deliver knowledge?

Oh, I know, better still,

It will happen by HIS Graaace.

Yes, that is what it is, Hiiiiissssssss Grrrraaaaaccce

He is all powerfull, beats the crap out of the lawnmower man by 50 to 1, all cyber knowing.

Oh man, I feel sick.

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Date: Sat, Jul 22, 2000 at 10:10:48 (GMT)
From: JohnT
Email: None
To: Mel Bourne
Subject: ..you dream, fool yourself and lie ..that's all NT
Message:
No Text
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Date: Sat, Jul 22, 2000 at 06:07:26 (GMT)
From: whoever
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: Please: some advice
Message:
My girlfriend (who I love very much) is an adherent of 'M'

She's not into it in a big way, but sometimes goes to meetings, and as far as I'm aware, just sees it as a meditational technique.

For whatever reason, I find myself feeling very uncomfortable about it. Whilst we're normally very open with each other, she refuses to talk rationally about it - she tells me that it's a feeling 'beyond thought' and we always end up having a row.

I really don't want to lose her, but the whole situation scares me.

I'd be very grateful for some help.

Thank you.

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Date: Sun, Jul 23, 2000 at 05:50:43 (GMT)
From: Zelda
Email: None
To: whoever
Subject: Lots of good advice here
Message:
I would now add that you get well versed on the 'Disclaimer' and all of its pitfalls as listend in the thread down below.
In it you can isolate some of the vocabulary and know what the expectations are.
Zelda
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Date: Sun, Jul 23, 2000 at 02:11:10 (GMT)
From: Salam
Email: None
To: whoever
Subject: All you had to do is ask..nt
Message:
n
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Date: Sat, Jul 22, 2000 at 22:56:51 (GMT)
From: Joe
Email: None
To: whoever
Subject: Gratuitous Advice
Message:
I have never been in a situation like yours, but like others have said, you have to understand that your friend is suffering from an information disease on the subject of Maharaji, knowledge and things related. The disease is what is the essence of a cult. She has most likely learned to disregard, repress, and filter anything that conflicts from her staunch programming that:

1. Maharaji is loving and perfect and never does anything wrong, at least as far as knowledge and his followers are concerned, and she will do mental and emotional gymnastics to avoid ever judging or blaming Maharaji for anything. She is likely incapable of judging him objectively and it will be painful and distressing for her to hear anyone else do so, including you;

2. 'Knowledge' works and is the ultimate experience. The reason she doesn't experience it that way most of the time, she is programmed to believe, is her own fault because she listens to her 'mind', or is the fault of 'the world,' which, unfortunately, includes you. Again, 'knowledge' is beyond objective evaluation.

This is not to say that she doesn't get a certain 'high' from going to Maharaji-events, not unlike what happens to people at a Christian revival meeting. Also, she may have nice experiences in meditation once in a great while, but she is programmed to think it has something to do with Maharaji, which it doesn't. Plus, Maharaji offers a simple solution to life's problems which people will hold onto not unlike how people hold on to a belief in Jesus or guardian angels.

I'm sure she is a very nice, loving person. Most premies are, because they were seeking love and peace and all that good stuff when they got involved with Maharaji in the first place. But in this one area, she has a big, big, blind spot and you can't go there. She won't let you.

I am only saying this because I was once in the same place your girlfriend is, and after I got out of it, I realized that I had that information disease. It's very insidious because you don't think you have it. Like others have said, if your friend knew she was in a cult, she would no longer be in it.

So, I think either you learn to live with that, or the relationship probably won't work. She might become an ex-premie at some point, but she will probably go through a lot of changes in the process. But the key thing to remember is to take care of yourself first. Under no circumstances, even if you think it's necessary to save the relationship which you treasure, get sucked into this cult yourself.

You might be able to help her get out of the cult, but that would probably be a somewhat slow process, by just letting her talk, and gradually saying how you see it. And like someone else said, information is the key. Learn all you can, and tell her what you've heard. But don't attempt to force her, she will probably just go deeper into the cult if you do.

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Date: Sun, Jul 23, 2000 at 13:50:40 (GMT)
From: Katie
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: Very Good Advice, Joe
Message:
I particularly liked the following:
So, I think either you learn to live with that, or the relationship probably won't work. She might become an ex-premie at some point, but she will probably go through a lot of changes in the process. But the key thing to remember is to take care of yourself first. Under no circumstances, even if you think it's necessary to save the relationship which you treasure, get sucked into this cult yourself.

You might be able to help her get out of the cult, but that would probably be a somewhat slow process, by just letting her talk, and gradually saying how you see it. And like someone else said, information is the key. Learn all you can, and tell her what you've heard. But don't attempt to force her, she will probably just go deeper into the cult if you do.

A lot of people write to the forum, or write in e-mail, with the same question that 'whoever' has. It is not an easy situation, and there are no easy answers, but I agree with Joe that you have to accept where the other person is at, but also take care of yourself.

I do know several non-premies or ex-premies who are married to premies, and the relationships seem to work, but only because of this. It takes a LOT of acceptance on the part of the non-premie partner, and also on the part of the premie partner, because they have to accept that the non-premie partner doesn't want to be involved with Maharaji. I agree also that you cannot try to force the other person to leave M - this usually has disastrous results for the relationship.

Best wishes to you, whoever -
Katie

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Date: Mon, Jul 24, 2000 at 16:17:29 (GMT)
From: Tie her to a tree
Email: None
To: Katie
Subject: and let Ted Patrick cock whip her NT
Message:
oops
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Date: Mon, Jul 24, 2000 at 16:36:08 (GMT)
From: Joe
Email: None
To: Tie her to a tree
Subject: Cute ----- but I oppose force deprogramming
Message:
Whoever you are, I don't think your post is very funny.

And just to set the record straight, personally, I have always opposed 'forced' deprogramming. When I was involved in an ex-cult members support group after I left the Maharaji-cult, there were those in the group who thought I was nuts to believe that, since some of them had been deprogrammed themselves, and they were actually grateful for it. They believed it got them out of the Moonies, the Krishnas or Elan Vital, and they were happy about that.

But I just think the downsides are a lot worse, Forced deprogramming infringes on personal rights and liberties, and I have seen deprogramming fail and actually cause a much more paranoid cult-member to submerge themselves even more strongly in the cult. I also believe that most people will eventually leave a cult on their own terms.

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Date: Sat, Jul 22, 2000 at 22:34:38 (GMT)
From: X
Email: None
To: whoever
Subject: Please: some advice
Message:
Many people enjoy what M teaches.
What should scare you? If its what you read here you should realize that a lot of what is posted is bs. There are many sides to this issue.
If you and your girlfriend love each other, whats the problem?
Why not let her pursue her own interests that she finds worthwhile. You may even learn something from her that benefits you.

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Date: Sat, Jul 22, 2000 at 22:49:44 (GMT)
From: Joey
Email: None
To: X
Subject: hey X , you anonymous dweeb ...
Message:
What should scare you? If its what you read here you should realize that a lot of what is posted is bs

Exactly. Like YOUR OWN post.

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Date: Sat, Jul 22, 2000 at 22:58:06 (GMT)
From: X
Email: None
To: Joey
Subject: hey X , you anonymous dweeb ...
Message:
to promote and reinforce unreasonable fear is bs
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Date: Sun, Jul 23, 2000 at 00:50:05 (GMT)
From: Joey
Email: None
To: X
Subject: hey X , you anonymous dweeb ...
Message:
Again I suggest you take a look at your own post. Perhaps even some of Maharahji's own words and actions. He's promoted and reinforced unreasonable fear of his own.
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Date: Sun, Jul 23, 2000 at 00:47:42 (GMT)
From: Selene
Email: None
To: X
Subject: so why keep posting as X?
Message:
Let us hear your reason for anonymity. I'm taking a personal poll.
Just call me...........
Selene, Girl Interested
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Date: Sat, Jul 22, 2000 at 19:55:44 (GMT)
From: Brian
Email: brian@ex-premie.org
To: whoever
Subject: Practice tolerance
Message:
She's not into it in a big way, but sometimes goes to meetings, and as far as I'm aware, just sees it as a meditational technique.

I get the feeling from your post that you are the one making an issue out of it and bringing up the subject that you both end up arguing about. You haven't said that she has pressured you to go with her.

You're lucky. There are many devotees who plan their lives around flying off to distant programs just to see him,

If she decides (for herself) tomorrow that Maharaji is a fraud, and then she takes up some other belief system, are you going to be 'very uncomfortable' about that one too? Would you be just as concerned if she had some other activity in her life that you were excluded from? What measure of control do you need to exercise over her beliefs and actions?

Face it. She's not you, and she never will be. Love her for who she is or walk away.

If the day comes when she stops being a devotee, then she'll need you to reassure her - not that you were right, but that she is alright. But don't stay if you can't accept that she makes her own choices in life, just as you do. She's chosen to be with you. Does she make bad choices?

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Date: Sat, Jul 22, 2000 at 21:35:25 (GMT)
From: gerry
Email: None
To: Brian
Subject: did you take a stupid pill, brian? NT
Message:
good gawd
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Date: Sat, Jul 22, 2000 at 22:24:54 (GMT)
From: Joey
Email: None
To: gerry
Subject: speaking of pills, gerry....
Message:
...isn't time for you to cut the grass again?

OR, here's another time saving technique for you when it comes to mowing the lawn:

1)Put a 'for sale' sign on your lawn mower.

2)When people come by to check it out, have them each do a test drive :::)))

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Date: Sun, Jul 23, 2000 at 02:51:38 (GMT)
From: gErRy
Email: None
To: Joey
Subject: You can pull that only once per summer, Joey...
Message:

OK 'stupid pill' was kinda mean, but I think brian musta thought about that post too much. Is he fishin' for a new girlfriend or something? Oops
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Date: Sun, Jul 23, 2000 at 05:10:17 (GMT)
From: Joey
Email: None
To: gErRy
Subject: OK ger, no more lawn mowing jokes this summer...
Message:
...promise :)

Actually I felt if you take Brian's post and then Jim's, you have a pretty interesting juxtaposition of two intelligent viewpoints on the subject.

The post that I really felt was the best in the thread is Joe's higher up, where both viewpoints seem to come together and even more additional and valuable info is contributed to the discussion.

Just my take, and you take care.

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Date: Sun, Jul 23, 2000 at 05:54:29 (GMT)
From: Selene
Email: None
To: Joey
Subject: if whoever was sincere
Message:
He or She must be sitting reading this thread. Imagine.
IF... he or she is serious. What an interesting thread we presented over the last 2 days.
No weight on the positive or negative side meant by this.
Just observing. HA. I get to do that. I'm not anonymous. :) :)
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Date: Sun, Jul 23, 2000 at 06:20:10 (GMT)
From: Joey
Email: None
To: Selene
Subject: if whoever was sincere
Message:
Just observing. HA. I get to do that. I'm not anonymous. :) :)

No you're not anonymous, thank googness !
You're Selene, you're you, and you're wonderful.
Luv ya, and talk to you soon.

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Date: Sun, Jul 23, 2000 at 06:43:32 (GMT)
From: Selene
Email: None
To: Joey
Subject: shhh do not let them know you like me
Message:
I'm ---- oh what was it?? 3 miles of bad road I believe last I got evaluated here. \
OH - And today told to take a chill pill.

AND fuck you premies. We still get to express ourselves warts and all. So there. Edit this ELK

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Date: Sun, Jul 23, 2000 at 06:58:28 (GMT)
From: Joey
Email: None
To: Selene
Subject: ah, fuck da whole lot of em :::))
Message:
I'm ---- oh what was it?? 3 miles of bad road I believe last I got evaluated here. \
OH - And today told to take a chill pill.

You know what Selenie ??

Whoever told you to take a chill pill...should take a chill suppository. That is if there's room, with whatever else is stuck up there.

Now it's really time for me to go to bed ! ::))

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Date: Sat, Jul 22, 2000 at 20:05:30 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Brian
Subject: Naw, I say accept your human nature
Message:
With all due respect, Brian, I think you're forgetting something and that's the natural indignation one feels watching one's friends or loved ones get duped. Unless you're trying to cultivate tolerance for its own sake, you're bound to be pretty appalled at the prospect of your intimate partner following this absurd cult leader in any way whatsoever. That's just human nature, I think.

Now I know that some people might not give a damn and, to be fair, that's human nature too. But I wouldn't charcterize it as 'tolerance' so much as apathy. I couldn't imagine that relationship having any depth or honesty to it on those terms.

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Date: Sat, Jul 22, 2000 at 17:35:36 (GMT)
From: Tonette
Email: None
To: whoever
Subject: If you really love her
Message:
And want to continue to invest in the relationship I would suggest contacting a de-programmer. She is involved with a dangerous cult and one that is I believe very unstable at the moment. No telling what Maharaji will be mandating in the future for his devotees to do. He isn't right in the head himself and the more your girlfriend invests of herself in his cult the more messed up she will be.
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Date: Sat, Jul 22, 2000 at 22:03:51 (GMT)
From: Joey
Email: None
To: Tonette
Subject: If you really love her
Message:
Tonette,

'Deprogrammers' and the brutalizing techniques of 'deprogramming' have long been abandoned in favor of the more effective and humane approach of 'exit counselling'.

Check out Steve Hassan's latest book as recommended by Susan in her post below, or his 'Combatting Cult Mind Control'.
Either book will spell out the difference quite clearly for you.

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Date: Sat, Jul 22, 2000 at 17:33:22 (GMT)
From: Susan
Email: None
To: whoever
Subject: good book for you
Message:
It is for the family members and people who care about cult members. It has practical ways to help them out.

Releasing the Bonds: Empowering people to think for themselves

By Steve Hassan

Good luck. She is in a cult.

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Date: Sat, Jul 22, 2000 at 17:40:18 (GMT)
From: Selene
Email: None
To: Susan
Subject: thanks Susan
Message:
for the practical advice. It was what I was trying to do earlier in this thread but didn't do it as consice as you just did ...
I think it helps to get it off the emotional side and into the gathering information side.
That is what helped me SO much a few years ago.
Learning all I could about the history of M and the current way he is using his organizations and his lifestyle, etc..
Information is the key.
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Date: Sat, Jul 22, 2000 at 15:14:47 (GMT)
From: Elaine
Email: None
To: whoever
Subject: Please: some advice
Message:
whoever,

In reading your post I saw two key words to look at -'uncomfortable' and ' refuses'.

I would simply ask you to ask yourself :

1. Why do you feel uncomfortable? or What is it that makes you feel uncomfortable exactly? What is it that exactly scares you?

2. Are you sure she 'refuses'? Could you be asking in a way that could be polarizing her? Is communication about other things problematic?

3. If there is a polarizing already in your communication - could this be the cause of the lack of 'rationality'?

If she feels your curious and want to really understand what she experiences - I don't see why she couldn't try to explain better.

Stay open and non-judgemental (in all your communications about anything) and things could stop ending in an argument.

Appreciation for each other is so important in relationships - differences are avenues for growth and learning about each other.

You love her very much and you say she's not into M in a big way,
so I would wager the communication skills of you both could just use some improvement.:)

I'm curious - if she were to spend time alone say...each day on a walk by herself routinely or alone in a room journaling (writing privately in a diary) would you also feel 'uncomfortable or scared' ?

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Date: Sat, Jul 22, 2000 at 15:36:45 (GMT)
From: Jerry
Email: None
To: Elaine
Subject: Please: some advice
Message:
For Chrissakes, Elaine, the guy's looking for advice, not a psychoanalysis. Good grief!
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Date: Sat, Jul 22, 2000 at 16:06:50 (GMT)
From: gerry
Email: None
To: whoever
Subject: whoever: Ignore Elaine, she's a cult member too
Message:
She is a guru M cult member, although she'll try to convince you she's not. Elaine has a little problem with honesty and she's not one who should be giving anyone advice.
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Date: Sat, Jul 22, 2000 at 14:05:45 (GMT)
From: A.P.
Email: antiprem@aol.com
To: whoever
Subject: Been there also
Message:
Hi whoever,

I can maybe help you a little bit. You need to know exactly how involved she is. Does she donate money or time? (service) How long has she been a follower of Maharaji? Does she think he is god or some similar facimile thereof?

Then you need to evaluate the situation: How serious is the relationship? is this a marriage in the works? How about family in the future?

There will be tensions about this subject in your relationship as long as you feel uncomfortable. The thing is she also feels uncomfortable with the fact that you want to degrade her experience.

You need to know exactly where she stands in her involvement with the cult and she needs to know exactly where you stand in your views of the cult.

Than you need to decide if her involvement is enough to let ruin your relationship. There are also other things to think about. It really depends on when she recieved knowledge. Old time premies and new age premies are 2 different animals. I personally chose to stick it out and we have come a long way.

I have spent hours and hours on this site gathering my information. Chances are, she will not want to visit this website because she thinks only lies are written here. The more 'Knowledge' you arm yourself with, the better your argument.

If I can help you out, you can feel free to e-mail me at the above email address. I could go on and on, but it would be a rather long post. Good luck

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Date: Sat, Jul 22, 2000 at 09:53:43 (GMT)
From: JohnT
Email: None
To: whoever
Subject: Please: some advice
Message:
she refuses to talk rationally about it - she tells me that it's a feeling 'beyond thought' and we always end up having a row.

Yeah, it because she's in a cult. And as long as she's in that cult, there's gonna be three of you in the relationship. And that is too crowded.

It's easier to suggest what not to do.
* Don't try to cut off her supply! Don't hide the stash or throw away the bottles! More seriously, don't try to stop her going to events and programs and mixing with other cultists.
* Don't disparage or belittle her experiences obtained by use of the cult's med techs. Her experiences are real even if the interpretation of those experiences is wacky.

DO
* Emphasise that her experiences, thoughts and feelings are hers and are independent of Rawat.
* Emphasise she is mind, body and soul. She was not made to be divided from herself.
* Use this site to discover as much as you can about the enemy. For Rawat and his apologists are the enemy of your relationship. While she follows Rawat, she will make it clear in diverse little ways that you are second best - 'he' is the main man in her life.
* Keep fighting. You will win, for you care for both her and the truth. Her cult cares for neither.

Hers a nice poem for you...

LOVE'S TRINITY (by Alfred Austin)
Soul, heart and body, we thus singly name,
Are not in love divisible and distinct.
But each with each inseperably link'd.
One is not honest, and the other shame,
But burn as closely fused as fuel, heat and flame.

They do not love who give the body and keep
The heart ungiven; nor they who yield the soul,
And guard the body. Love doth give the whole;
Its range being high as heaven, as ocean deep,
Wide as the realms of air or planet's curving sweep.

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Date: Sun, Jul 23, 2000 at 06:24:39 (GMT)
From: Lotus Eater
Email: None
To: JohnT
Subject: to JohnT, thank you thank you thank you nt
Message:
asdf
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Date: Sat, Jul 22, 2000 at 16:47:22 (GMT)
From: cq
Email: None
To: JohnT
Subject: John, bravo. Good advice IMO. (nt)
Message:
Good advice, and non-partisan too.
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Date: Sat, Jul 22, 2000 at 06:18:33 (GMT)
From: Been through this
Email: None
To: whoever
Subject: Please: some advice
Message:
Accept that she is in a cult and will probably remain in it.

Contemplate if you can accept Maraji as her permanent love affair.

Then decide if you want to always play second best.

If the answr is yes then never mention it again and accept it when she goes to functions and moans his name in her sleep and is distant.

If not , leave her, and give Her the problem: IE: She has to choose between you or her other lover.

Thats the bare bones of it in my long experience.

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Date: Sat, Jul 22, 2000 at 08:42:42 (GMT)
From: Selene
Email: None
To: Been through this
Subject: that is well intentioned advice??
Message:
moans his name in his sleep???
oh please. I am so XXXXX here saying this

but

I do very recognize
YOUR writing style. sheesh.

now, to whoever

if you are sincere....
Just do what you need to do. Do NOT dwell on moanings in sleep.
That is the least of your worries.
Find out all you can about M. Read everything on this site.
Ask her to read with you.
Did you ask her to? That's a start. Not forum the site.
www.ex-premie.org
the main page. Look through the info with her.

It's a start. Talk to people and do what you have to do. Don't pay attention to paranoid posts like 'moaning in her sleep' stuff unless it helps!!! (it would NOT help me to read that)

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Date: Sat, Jul 22, 2000 at 09:57:32 (GMT)
From: been through this
Email: None
To: Selene
Subject: that is well intentioned advice??
Message:
Ok Ok
cant handle a little exotica eh?

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Date: Sat, Jul 22, 2000 at 10:30:28 (GMT)
From: JohnT
Email: None
To: been through this
Subject: that is well intentioned advice??
Message:
Well, I suppose there are worse times she could, ahem, 'moan his name'? I mean, a chap could be confused by a person shouting 'o god o god o god more...'

And rounding it off with a thankful 'by his grace'.

Cos, to the cultists, it is all 'by his grace' isn't it?

It sure gets crowded with three in a relationship.

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Date: Sat, Jul 22, 2000 at 16:31:27 (GMT)
From: Selene
Email: None
To: JohnT
Subject: come on JohnT you know I am an ex
Message:
And I think your post was funny.
:)
Actually now that I think of some of the very;
I repeat
VERY weird premie women I know a few years ago, I suppose it isn't even that far off to imagine them orasming in their sleep over the --0-- -shit ---- I simply cannot finish this.
You get the general drift. ick too early in the morning for this.

so, I give to Been through this.

I think it's the damned anonymity thing bothering me right now. Recognize someone right off the bat by their post, wonder why they don't post by (YET THEIR OTHER anonymous ID) etc... but that is a whole other issue
for a whole other thread. OK, I'll stop now.

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Date: Sun, Jul 23, 2000 at 05:52:24 (GMT)
From: JohnT
Email: None
To: Selene
Subject: come on JohnT you know I am an ex
Message:
Hi Selene,

I'm glad you found it funny, I was aware I was sailing a bit close to the wind and in danger of pushing some ex's buttons - yours was the first post I checked this morning!

Sounds like whoever's partner is not in so deep that he need fear my nightmare scenario - just the milder version of 'three's a crowd' more delicately portrayed by Been through this.

Respect.

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Date: Sun, Jul 23, 2000 at 05:58:36 (GMT)
From: Selene
Email: None
To: JohnT
Subject: yeah well 'been through this' is a good writer
Message:
We will see more of his efforts. So you are a lucky fan, your author is prolific.

That is cute you checked my post first. You know you have my email. It's OK!!

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Date: Mon, Jul 24, 2000 at 03:43:58 (GMT)
From: Been through This
Email: None
To: Selene and JohnT
Subject: yeah well 'been through this' is a good writer
Message:
John I appreciate your frustration with anonymous posts.
But because this subject is very close to the bone ;)pun intended) my identity may show through in this particular area,
-well you get my drift.
Exposure here would leave me open to much.

BTW exs need to appreciate that some of us have real enemies in premiedum.

Selene hello ;)

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Date: Mon, Jul 24, 2000 at 03:56:33 (GMT)
From: Selene
Email: None
To: Been through This
Subject: RE: Selene Hello
Message:
fuck you
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Date: Mon, Jul 24, 2000 at 05:17:30 (GMT)
From: Been thru
Email: None
To: Selene
Subject: RE: Selene Hello???
Message:
Selene
I must have missed something here
After you cool off, would you let me know
what I said, or not to warrant that?
I have thought about it but if I put my guesses down
we could be rubix cubing for a few more hours.
(Oi you have made my tea spill.)
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Date: Mon, Jul 24, 2000 at 05:32:47 (GMT)
From: Selene
Email: None
To: Been thru
Subject: you could start by posting by your real fake name
Message:
that is a start.
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Date: Mon, Jul 24, 2000 at 10:13:02 (GMT)
From: Been through This
Email: None
To: Selene
Subject: you could start by posting by your real fake name
Message:
Selene
i have never said it on the forum before I would nevr have dreamed of saying it to you but
fuck you.

I have just as much right here as you do.
dont you tell me what is a start

If my being anonymous on this thread bothers you it is not my problem and I dont need to make a start.

who the hell do you think you are

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Date: Mon, Jul 24, 2000 at 17:21:27 (GMT)
From: Selene
Email: None
To: Been through This
Subject: well the problem is who I think you are
Message:
And if I'm correct I wouldn't get so high and mighty about me because you know why I feel this way.

And if I am wrong, I'll never know will I? So I shouldn't have gone off like that. But shit happens and I get hurt too.

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Date: Tues, Jul 25, 2000 at 04:32:45 (GMT)
From: Been Trough tis
Email: None
To: Selene
Subject: well the problem is who I think you are
Message:
For what it is worth- I would not have known why you would have felt this way.
I can understand you feeling that way if you thought I did though.
so maybe we can drop it
PS Since you have a reason for feeling that way - here is virtual hug. and I am not a hugger usually.
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Date: Tues, Jul 25, 2000 at 04:41:54 (GMT)
From: Selene
Email: None
To: Been Trough tis
Subject: I believe it was Been through this.
Message:
Be consistant at least.
And why would I feel??

let's see:
Average about 2 emails a day then no communication whatsoever and no explanation
Why on earth would that bother me? Silly me.
Hug someone else thanks.

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Date: Tues, Jul 25, 2000 at 09:19:34 (GMT)
From: Been through this
Email: None
To: Selene
Subject: I believe it was Been through this.
Message:
I am not sending you emails selene, never have.
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Date: Tues, Jul 25, 2000 at 16:01:27 (GMT)
From: Selene
Email: None
To: Been through this
Subject: then like I said
Message:
That would make me wrong. But how will I even know?
And like I said, in which case it was wrong to go off like that.

I'm pissed off and chasing shadows. No matter, Katie is right that the important thing is how close would I want to get to smeone who would not reveal their real identity to me, ever.

Sorry for so much confusion. Very sorry.

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Date: Mon, Jul 24, 2000 at 13:16:58 (GMT)
From: Joey
Email: None
To: Been through This
Subject: you could start by posting by your real fake name
Message:
who the hell do you think you are

She's Selene.

And what's the point of anyone asking you the same question, when all we're going to get in return, is some bullshit, fake answer.

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Date: Tues, Jul 25, 2000 at 04:40:05 (GMT)
From: Been through this
Email: None
To: Joey
Subject: you could start by posting by your real fake name
Message:
hope you can at least trust yourself
I am a premie and proud of it and I tricked you
so get over it you oaf
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Date: Tues, Jul 25, 2000 at 07:19:03 (GMT)
From: Joey
Email: None
To: Been through this
Subject: you could start by posting by your real fake name
Message:
hope you can at least trust yourself

Oh yes I do, now that I'm out of the cult.

But that's the crux of the issue, isn't it ? Trusting oneself.
Someting you lose in the cult, which is why the only thing you have left... is playing your stupid little cyber games.

Goodbye loser.

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Date: Mon, Jul 24, 2000 at 18:40:25 (GMT)
From: Selene
Email: None
To: Joey
Subject: anonymity at it's finest
Message:
I can't blame my paranoia attack on anyone else.

But I refuse to buy the 'vicim is responsible for their vicimization' bs either. Like I said and you said, we'll never know.

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Date: Sat, Jul 22, 2000 at 11:26:43 (GMT)
From: Been through this
Email: None
To: JohnT
Subject: that is well intentioned advice??
Message:
Ill say
I was putting it delicately actually. It is not nice to begrudge the luds space in your partners heart.
The fact is that it ends up that the partner has not all of he/she/its faculties.
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Date: Sat, Jul 22, 2000 at 06:32:00 (GMT)
From: Salam
Email: None
To: Been through this
Subject: and the verdict is....... nt
Message:
nt
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Date: Sat, Jul 22, 2000 at 06:36:03 (GMT)
From: Been through this
Email: None
To: Salam
Subject: and the verdict is....... nt
Message:
He needs to make up his own mind.
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Date: Sat, Jul 22, 2000 at 13:42:39 (GMT)
From: RobertB
Email: None
To: Been through this
Subject: Good luck - hope this helps
Message:
In 1987 I saw a father leave his wife and one year old baby to get closer to the guru. - Something that happens in a cult.

Your girlfriend needs to know that her feelings (which are quite real and cannot be argued about) are not the result of 'his teachings'. She needs to leave this lunatic and re-associate all those wonder 'experiences' with HER own heart and soul. Bring her to this forum - I still meditate everyday and my experience 'inside' has not increased or decreased one bit.

Note to girlfriend: By devaluing everything but Knowledge Maharaji gets us to increase our practice - but the reverse works as well. I love my children , I love human frailty, I love planning out my day, I love things that are temporary - I appreciate lots of things. It's maharaji who has left knowledge, not me.

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Date: Sat, Jul 22, 2000 at 17:28:40 (GMT)
From: Tonette
Email: None
To: RobertB
Subject: Father leaves his wife and one year old
Message:
In 1991 or somewhere around that time, I saw you, Robert B, leave your wife, baby daughter and young son to experience a program in Bath, England. I also remember that it cost alot of money to go there for a week and that taking the family was out of the question because the GooRoo didn't want children anywhere near his precious programs and it would of interferred with your experience. You know how wives and children can be so distracting when one is trying to 'focus' on the form of the master.
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Date: Sat, Jul 22, 2000 at 05:00:55 (GMT)
From: Zelda
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: Dont miss EV Disclaimer in thread below by Jtf
Message:
The thread has a unpleasent 'subject' but is a must read.
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Date: Mon, Jul 24, 2000 at 00:39:47 (GMT)
From: Stonor
Email: None
To: Zelda
Subject: Hi Zelda! (OT)
Message:
Hi Zelda

Sorry to hear about your computer problems, and good to see you back. Mine are beginning to finally settle down as I sort out the last details. Should get back to you on that text by the first week of August. This extra July contract has thrown me a few interesting learning curves . . .

Until soon,

Stonor

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Date: Sat, Jul 22, 2000 at 05:00:26 (GMT)
From: Jerry
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: The mystic's proof
Message:
In skeptic Michael Shermer's fine book, Why People Believe Weird Things, he speaks a little about the futility of the mystic's plea that his personal experience is all the evidence that's needed to prove something true. Shermer quotes psychologist Richard Hardison as follows:

Mystical 'truths', by their nature, must be solely personal, and they can have no possible external validation. Each has equal claim to the truth. Tealeaf reading and astrology and Buddhism; each is equally sound or unsound if we judge by the absense of related evidence. This is not intended to disparage any one of the faiths; merely to note the impossibility of verifying their correctness. The mystic is in a paradoxical position. When he seeks external support for his views he must turn to external arguments, and he denies mysticism in the process. External validation is, by definition, impossible for the mystic.

The reason why I was struck by this is because so often, in a last ditch effort to save face, premies here will fall upon their experience as being the only evidence needed for why they remain loyal to Maharaji. This is unfair play. How can anyone verify or deny what your experience is? Only you know for sure. To use personal experience in an argument for why you believe something, is no argument at all. Only evidence which is objective, that is available to all parties, should be presented. Otherwise, keep it to yourself. In the case of Maharaji, the only evidence that meets this standard is things said and done, by Maharaji, for all to see.

In the future, with this in mind, I, personally, will tell each and every premie who worms out on a debate by proclaiming his experience, to shove it. Your experience proves nothing to anybody but yourself, and is invalid, in an argument, as evidence on behalf of Maharaji.

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Date: Sat, Jul 22, 2000 at 08:43:27 (GMT)
From: Mel Bourne
Email: None
To: Jerry
Subject: The mystic's proof
Message:
Jerry

In the future, with this in mind, I, personally, will tell each and every premie who worms out on a debate by proclaiming his experience, to shove it. Your experience proves nothing to anybody but yourself, and is invalid, in an argument, as evidence on behalf of Maharaji.

You seem to forget that the whole deal was and always has been the 'revelation' and experience of Knowledge, whether in the 'Satguru seventies' or the 'non-spiritual nineties'. The basic message is the same, to experience the fulfillment and contentment in side of yourself.

Now, whether you like it or not, I have practiced Knowledge in many lifestyles (ashram to career/family man, in a premie community and far away in remote areas for long periods of time). I've practiced in happy and properous times and in times of extreme personal sadness and tragedy. In all thses conditions I've found the practice of Knowledge to provide me with the sense of well being and 'protection' that Maharaji has intimated on many occassions that it would. I wouldn't class this as 'mystical', but it is certainly very real to me. This is the crux of why I support Maharaji, because however much you say he may lie about this and that, on the subject of Knowledge he has never lied to me

I can well understand that if I were not to experience Knowledge in the way that I do, that I would probably be as critical of Maharaji as anyone else here, but for me to do that just to curry favour with ex's would be 'dishonest' (that's my definition, Jim).

So you may tell me to shove it, fine, but what you and others have to understand is that there are many others who experience Knowledge in a similar way to me, and that they are sincere honest people who live normal healthy and productive lives, and who are not worthy of your derisive scorn as brainwashed 'cult' members.

As I said on this forum before, if ex's want disparage this whole thing to premies they are going to have to prove beyond all doubt to them that their experience (in some cases years of it) is false, and your statement above admits that ex's are fundamentally unable to do that.

I fully respect that Knowledge may not have 'worked' for you and others here, fine, but I think it unfair that you project your experience (or non-experience) as being the ultimate truth on the matter, you have to at least give your fellow human beings the benefit of the doubt on these personal matters, even if you cannot relate to it yourself. I think that is what many premies find frustrating in talking to ex's, there is no respect that they, like any other human being on this planet, are entitled to the freedom of choice on personal and 'spiritual' matters and this choice includes the 'enjoyment' of Knowledge and the freedom to associate with Maharaji without being insulted and ridiculed for it.

Mel

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Date: Sun, Jul 23, 2000 at 06:07:24 (GMT)
From: Lotus Eater
Email: None
To: Mel Bourne
Subject: to Mel, peaches and onions
Message:
Heard an interesting thing about hypnosis the other day:

You can tell a person they are eating a peach and give them an onion to eat.
they will eat it with every expression of enjoyment ( go on, tell them how sweet and juicy it is), not only will they yum up that onion, but their STOMACH will actually ingest it AS IF IT WERE A PEACH.

Now my question is what do you think they ate, and how will it affect them?

My answer to that question is the poor bastard ate an ONION, and possibly experienced some intestinal discomfort from bad digestive processes.

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Date: Sun, Jul 23, 2000 at 10:16:45 (GMT)
From: Mel Bourne
Email: None
To: Lotus Eater
Subject: to Mel, peaches and onions
Message:
Lotus Eater

So what are you trying to imply here? That the experience of Knowledge is other than Maharaji says and that is how I (and others) have experienced it? How do you really know beyond your own attempt at 'clever' sophistry?

The problem is with your theory (mind game) is even a lot of ex's still feel that the techniques of Knowledge give them a 'positive' experience. (Check the archives if you don't believe me) So we already have a basic consensus between quite a divergent group of people including Maharaji, some ex's, premies and myself on the quality of the experience. Seems to be quite a significant consensus in a way. Of course, the secret is that you actually have to practice to find out for yourself, don't you?

For you (assuming you still practice) the experience could be well as you say - eating onions thinking they're peaches, but how come you call yourself 'lotus eater' then?

Happy indigestion

Mel

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Date: Sun, Jul 23, 2000 at 21:32:59 (GMT)
From: Lotus Eater
Email: None
To: Mel Bourne
Subject: this isn't some silly game
Message:
I was not attempting to 'score points off you'. Personally I thought my post of interest, any 'implications' are up to you to infer, as I suggested, you answer the question posed for yourself, I did for myself. The person who told it to me was defending hypnotherapy. Her contention was that it really was a peach for the subject, I disagree.

An implication that I got out of it is that brainwashing is effective, and BY IT'S NATURE undetectable by the subject, unless the indigestion prods them into searching for an answer to their discomfort.

Yes Mel, 27 years, and I could count the days that I didn't meditate on my fingers and toes, well, probably plus a few. And yes there long periods when I exceeded the 'minimum' in a day.

I am entitled to discuss this subject.

PS Why Lotus Eater, well I was feeling pretty shaken at the time, a little ironic humour helped. I am considering at the moment asking the forum admin if I can change it on receipt of a solemn promise from me that I will never nibble again on lotus toes!

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Date: Sun, Jul 23, 2000 at 14:22:07 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Mel Bourne
Subject: You're trapped on this one, Mel
Message:
The closest thing to a 'consensus' you're ever going to get is that K stands for Knothing. Many, many, many more have thrown it out like platform shoes than have kept it. You forgot about those.
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Date: Sat, Jul 22, 2000 at 16:35:50 (GMT)
From: gerry
Email: None
To: Mel Bourne
Subject: Snorrrrrr MelBoring...
Message:
I think that is what many premies find frustrating in talking to ex's, there is no respect that they, like any other human being on this planet, are entitled to the freedom of choice on personal and 'spiritual' matters and this choice includes the 'enjoyment' of Knowledge and the freedom to associate with Maharaji without being insulted and ridiculed for it.

Freedom of choice goes out the window when someone (goober in this instance) employes cultic brainwashing techniques. You think you are associating with Maharaji on the basis of free choice. You are not. You have been heavily indoctrinated. You have no more free choice than a prisoner on death row.

Of course, you won't accept this because you are in a cult.

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Date: Sat, Jul 22, 2000 at 13:14:05 (GMT)
From: Jerry
Email: None
To: Mel Bourne
Subject: You miss the point
Message:
Mel,

While we have compared notes on the experience of Knowledge, we have always been talking about something subjective. I can never know your experience and you can never know mine. My point is, why even discuss it? Our separate, purely subjective experiences will always remain a mystery to each other. If the only thing you can bring to the table when discussing Maharaji is your personal experience of Knowledge, you might as well not bring anything at all. There are other matters to discuss which are plain for all to see, such as whether or not M claimed to be God. If you don't want to go there, there's no reason for you to be here. So, I suggest you just take your experience and.... go have fun with it (bet you thought I was going to say 'shove it', didn't you?).

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Date: Sat, Jul 22, 2000 at 08:54:23 (GMT)
From: hamzen
Email: None
To: Mel Bourne
Subject: It's not your experience I doubt,
Message:
it's your explanation of the experience.

That experience is not unique to followers of gm, and he makes out it is.

THAT is why premies are ridiculed. They are sloppy, sloppy, sloppy, about discussing their experiences because gm and the experience has been elevated above anything else, beyond language , beyond truth, it's a worship of a belief system and the boss.

You too just don't get it.

Do you believe anyone else who doesn't follow gm, could have these experiences or not?

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Date: Sat, Jul 22, 2000 at 09:15:33 (GMT)
From: Mel Bourne
Email: None
To: hamzen
Subject: It's not your experience I doubt,
Message:
Hamzen

Do you believe anyone else who doesn't follow gm, could have these experiences or not?

I have absolutely no idea, but it's certainly possible.

Have I been sloppy about explaining my experience?

Apart from this 'sloppiness', do you believe that any one who does 'follow' Maharaji (as you put it) could have these experiences?

Mel

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Date: Sat, Jul 22, 2000 at 10:47:22 (GMT)
From: hamzen
Email: None
To: Mel Bourne
Subject: Then you to are in major disagreement with gm
Message:
Have no doubt at all that premies could have these experiences, did myself.

BUT I still do now, even though I know he's a crock of shit. How is this possible, when as he states it isn't possible without him in the triangle?

And you saying it's possible means you are in disagreement with the CORE belief system he promotes. How do you deal with that?

And secondly if other people could have these experiences then knowledge is not a unique system. Now we already know this, the techniques are bog standard yoga techniques, so what's the big deal and importance of gm? And how can you then justify him promoting himself as THE unique key to it all, his $500,000 a month expenses etc etc. People have supported him for years because they took him at his word. This means he has been quite happy lying to people about his role, and been quite happy to set up the emotional dependency states required to sustain this.
This doesn't make you even a little bit quesy?

And what about the fact that in India, he still promotes himself exactly the same as he did in the west in the 70's, which in his FAQ's he tries to deny.
Doesn't the fact that he is a liar worry you at all?

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Date: Sun, Jul 23, 2000 at 01:42:04 (GMT)
From: Mel Bourne
Email: None
To: hamzen
Subject: Then you to are in major disagreement with gm
Message:
Hi again Hamzen

...And you saying it's possible means you are in disagreement with the CORE belief system he promotes. How do you deal with that?

To me the 'CORE belief system' (if there is even one), is that there is an experience to be had by practicing Knowledge as presented by Maharaji that can contribute in some way to my wellbeing. In my practice I have found this to be true and am quite happy to talk about it as I believe that it is possible for other people to benefit too. That is the extent of my 'CORE belief system' on this topic, it certainly doesn't encompass speculation as to whether or not Maharaji is 'Lord' or that the Knowledge is the ONLY way to achieve a similar state of well being.

As to the difference as to how he promotes himself in India, I really can't comment, except to say that if Knowledge can only be accepted in India in what may be termed a more 'traditional' context then why not? I don't think that it may be so much of an issue of 'telling lies', but more an issue expediency in getting Knowledge across. I think that the 'cultural' issues are more important than you may think. I've traveled in Asia quite extensively and what I as a 'Westerner' take for granted as 'normal' can actually be quite alien to Asians. The issue isn't what is 'right or wrong' but what is 'different'. We Westerners all tend to make very definitive judgements on all sorts of issues within our own cultural context. Maharaji is conversant with both cultures obviously because he was reared in one and has spent a longtime living in another, so although I may personally disagree with how he might present Knowledge in India because I simply can't relate to it, doesn't detract from the fact that in Maharaji's judgement a more traditional promotion could be more effective there. However this is really all speculation on my part!

Mel

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Date: Sun, Jul 23, 2000 at 03:44:54 (GMT)
From: hamzen
Email: None
To: Mel Bourne
Subject: Then you to are in major disagreement with gm
Message:
To me the 'CORE belief system' (if there is even one), is that there is an experience to be had by practicing Knowledge as presented by Maharaji that can contribute in some way to my wellbeing. In my practice I have found this to be true and am quite happy to talk about it as I believe that it is possible for other people to benefit too. That is the extent of my 'CORE belief system' on this topic, it certainly doesn't encompass speculation as to whether or not Maharaji is 'Lord' or that the Knowledge is the ONLY way to achieve a similar state of well being.
Mel I'm really trying here, but I wonder how much effort you are prepared to show too. I was not talking about YOUR core beliefs, but gm's. The triangle with him as the magic ingredient is central to his whole message which you have completely avoided. He also still makes it quite plain on a regular basis that his k is definitely the only way to reach this understanding. You can't avoid this Mel, because there are any number of premies who HAVE accepted this even if you don't.
As to the difference as to how he promotes himself in India, I really can't comment, except to say that if Knowledge can only be accepted in India in what may be termed a more 'traditional' context then why not? I don't think that it may be so much of an issue of 'telling lies', but more an issue expediency in getting Knowledge across. I think that the 'cultural' issues are more important than you may think. I've traveled in Asia quite extensively and what I as a 'Westerner' take for granted as 'normal' can actually be quite alien to Asians. The issue isn't what is 'right or wrong' but what is 'different'. We Westerners all tend to make very definitive judgements on all sorts of issues within our own cultural context. Maharaji is conversant with both cultures obviously because he was reared in one and has spent a longtime living in another, so although I may personally disagree with how he might present Knowledge in India because I simply can't relate to it, doesn't detract from the fact that in Maharaji's judgement a more traditional promotion could be more effective there. However this is really all speculation on my part!
Same again Mel, I'm not just talking promotional style, logos etc cultural baggage but the main message. When he says something, does language truth apply as it would to anyone else you might meet, or does he have more slack? Say I was a westerner travelling in India, which is hardly a rarity, and went to his programs there, or was an urban Indian, I would be hearing him say the ole perfect master shit directly. When someone says something that clearly it either means something or it doesn't, language is not just some flexi truth you can bend as you feel, it would be quite easy for him to talk to them in a buddhist taoist way, or even a kundalini yoga way, or say he is not the only guru who can get you there, which is standard practice for any number of real teachers there, otherwise you're saying hindus or indians don't deserve the truth, which looks a bit racist to me.

If you can't see what I'm getting at Mel, then we're hitting the same ole same ole, and it stinks, because you're happy with your experience, so sod everything else that goes with it. There is no way you'd accept this 'flexibility' with language by an aussie government minister over aboriginal rights. Can't you see that your responses come over as the usual premie word games with no committment to truth, just that you're being superficially more civilized than most of the others who come here?

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Date: Sun, Jul 23, 2000 at 11:20:10 (GMT)
From: Mel Bourne
Email: None
To: hamzen
Subject: Then you to are in major disagreement with gm
Message:
Hamzen

I'm not just talking promotional style, logos etc cultural baggage but the main message. When he says something, does language truth apply as it would to anyone else you might meet, or does he have more slack? Say I was a westerner travelling in India, which is hardly a rarity, and went to his programs there, or was an urban Indian, I would be hearing him say the ole perfect master shit directly. When someone says something that clearly it either means something or it doesn't, language is not just some flexi truth you can bend as you feel, it would be quite easy for him to talk to them in a buddhist taoist way, or even a kundalini yoga way, or say he is not the only guru who can get you there, which is standard practice for any number of real teachers there, otherwise you're saying hindus or indians don't deserve the truth, which looks a bit racist to me.

What is the 'truth' we're talking about here...

Is it all about the spreading of Knowledge, or the acceptance of Maharaji as god incarnate? Ex's along with many premies assume it's the latter, so you have an action/reaction on this point.

To me, the 'Truth' is the importance and experience of Knowledge, and this is the consistant thing in Maharaji's message in both his Indian presentations AND his 'western' presentations.

If the divinity of Maharaji was the 'truth' that needed to be conveyed then this message would not have been dispensed with in the West, would it? Personally I always had problems in the old DLM days about the 'divinity' issue because I had enormous difficulty swallowing it, but, fortunately, I did not let my 'lack' of understanding on this issue prejudice my practice.

These days it's far easier for me on two points..

1. I've had years to practice and the experience has grown.
2. There is no now insistence that I hold beleifs about Maharaji's 'divinity' or similar 'concepts' that used to be pummeled into me, not by Maharaji (strangely enough) but by premies (especially from the ashram)

So although I agree that 'language truth' is important, it is obviously subject to change and 'flexibility' but the fundamental message remains the same and is consistant. These are subtle points but I hold strongly that Maharaji trys to present the basic message in ways appropriate to the cultures concerned. To help you understand this further..

If you were the 'Master' committed to spreading Knowledge around the world, and you knew that in a certain area or country if you presented it in a particular way that it would not be accepted, would you change your presentation? If this new presentation was not accepted in another cultural environment, would you adapt it to suit that environment, even if it led to some people of accusing you of lying? Would you in fact be lying? What would you do given the Knowledge may be rejected if not presented according to 'local conditions'? Give up spreading Knowledge? Quite a 'moral' dilemma isn't it and it has to be balanced with the what you believe is the overwhelming need in the world for Knowledge. Would you let the 'moral' issue outweigh the 'need' for Knowledge to be spread or would you maintain your moral integrity and shirk what you felt was your duty?

Of course this may all be bullshit, but sometimes the issues may not be as clear cut as you would like to think they are. Have you considered the issue in this light before, is it too challenging for you or is it easier to rush to judgement on your own superficial assessment of the situation?

Mel

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Date: Sun, Jul 23, 2000 at 22:59:20 (GMT)
From: hamzen
Email: None
To: Mel Bourne
Subject: Then you to are in major disagreement with gm
Message:
I'm not just talking promotional style, logos etc cultural baggage but the main message. When he says something, does language truth apply as it would to anyone else you might meet, or does he have more slack? Say I was a westerner travelling in India, which is hardly a rarity, and went to his programs there, or was an urban Indian, I would be hearing him say the ole perfect master shit directly. When someone says something that clearly it either means something or it doesn't, language is not just some flexi truth you can bend as you feel, it would be quite easy for him to talk to them in a buddhist taoist way, or even a kundalini yoga way, or say he is not the only guru who can get you there, which is standard practice for any number of real teachers there, otherwise you're saying hindus or indians don't deserve the truth, which looks a bit racist to me.
What is the 'truth' we're talking about here...
The truth here refers to two things, speaking truthfully, and the truth as to whether he believes he is god, the perfect master, the only one who can 'give' as he so quiantly puit it k, etc. As he has now admitted himself, speaking truthfully is out, one minute it was the premies, not him, saying he was god and it was all their fault, now all the quotes have been dug out for public consumption, and, 'well yes I did say that but it doesn't matter', now in the west he isn't, now in the east he is. This isn't just presentation.
If an aboriginal meeting was addressed by an australian politician saying, 'yes, you have every right to the lands', and then in trhe australian parliament he votes against land rights, that's not just presentation, and you quite rightly would be enraged.

We're not just talking presentation of irrelevant issues here, we're talking god etc, big time stuff. At the very least you have to admit he's being incredibly shifty even if you won't admit what anyone with half a brain can see, that he is lying, like any drug dealer he'll spin whatever line he thinks he can get away with. For me coming to k was about truth overall, and that means honesty & truthfullness as a key part of the package. If he didn't think about that one he's not only a liar but unintelligent to a degree it would be impossible to believe.
Call me naive, but I assumed this territory was the one place that the lies & deceptions of this world would be out of place, and lets remember how he loves taking the piss out of this in religions etc.
.

Is it all about the spreading of Knowledge, or the acceptance of Maharaji as god incarnate? Ex's along with many premies assume it's the latter, so you have an action/reaction on this point.
For me it's both, he's lied about the perfect master lineage, he's lied about where the techniques came from, he's lied about the special juju, that knowledge is more than the techniques and the experience of practicing them ( remember there was a short period a couple of years back when he gave knowledge by video or are you saying his special juju was graced into the videos?, and now he he's admitted he lied he says that doesn't matter.
Also remember, that it's him that still goes on about the triangle as key, that witrhout your committment to him, no experience, that also is a lie.
I've been telling a lot of people who aren't involved about all this and their reactions have been fascinating, the'yre pissing themselves, and I'm not embellishing etc, just straight quotes from the horses mouth.

To me, the 'Truth' is the importance and experience of Knowledge, and this is the consistant thing in Maharaji's message in both his Indian presentations AND his 'western' presentations.
Mel we've already agreed that there is no argument about the experience, but just because he showed you the way to that experience does not mean you can lower the truthfulness threshold, surely even you would agree you'd expect it to be higher. Standards and ethical qualities should improve with that experience, not get worse, IF that experience means anything. Certainly for me that has been the case.
If the divinity of Maharaji was the 'truth' that needed to be conveyed then this message would not have been dispensed with in the West, would it? Personally I always had problems in the old DLM days about the 'divinity' issue because I had enormous difficulty swallowing it, but, fortunately, I did not let my 'lack' of understanding on this issue prejudice my practice. Anyway even there he's still ambiguous on that one, again to repeat didn't you see the secret bumff sent out about no-one getting knowledge without total dedication and non-questioning of him. Also don't forget that holy name now refers to imagining him on a swing as you follow the breath, hardly an irrelevance. His presentations make it explicit that the two are one, and you are in complete denial of his main message if you think otherwise. Nor did I find the divinity issue easy, but he still hints at it for those who still believe in the lila concept, and most old timers still do. I also did not let my 'lack' of understanding prejudice my practice, that's why I left and continued meditating, but what about his comments til very recently that he never said it, and that it was all the premies fault. Don't you find that unbelievably shifty??
These days it's far easier for me on two points..
1. I've had years to practice and the experience has grown.
2. There is no now insistence that I hold beleifs about Maharaji's 'divinity' or similar 'concepts' that used to be pummeled into me, not by Maharaji (strangely enough) but by premies (especially from the ashram) Now you are being amazingly selective in your memory, and you are denying so much of what he said it's laughable Mel, in fact you are now lying outright too, whether it's to yourself as well as me, well I've got no idea.
So although I agree that 'language truth' is important, it is obviously subject to change and 'flexibility' but the fundamental message remains the same and is consistant. These are subtle points but I hold strongly that Maharaji trys to present the basic message in ways appropriate to the cultures concerned. To help you understand this further..
If you were the 'Master' committed to spreading Knowledge around the world, and you knew that in a certain area or country if you presented it in a particular way that it would not be accepted, would you change your presentation? Not if it meant lying, no. If this new presentation was not accepted in another cultural environment, would you adapt it to suit that environment, even if it led to some people of accusing you of lying? You have now switched it to presentation, style etc, but the whole caboodle has been a pack of lies. Other yoga teachers don't all lie, the knowledge experience does not need lies, and that's not just presentation, packaging. Would you in fact be lying? What would you do given the Knowledge may be rejected if not presented according to 'local conditions'? Give up spreading Knowledge? Quite a 'moral' dilemma isn't it and it has to be balanced with the what you believe is the overwhelming need in the world for Knowledge. Now you are getting downrightr silly Mel, he has never run it as though the need for knowledge is overwhelming, you might feel that, I certainly felt that, but he's made it quite plain he doesn't give a fuck about that. Would you let the 'moral' issue outweigh the 'need' for Knowledge to be spread or would you maintain your moral integrity and shirk what you felt was your duty? You present it as though it's an either or choice, lie and get the message across, or tell the truth and have no-one listening. You are insulting yourself now mel, and I suspect that outside of this environment, looking at any other religious group, you'd be ripping that argument to shreds. Actually I think you are also demeaning the experience that can be gained from meditation.
Of course this may all be bullshit, but sometimes the issues may not be as clear cut as you would like to think they are. Have you considered the issue in this light before, is it too challenging for you or is it easier to rush to judgement on your own superficial assessment of the situation?
Mel you're now insulting me unbelievably, amnd getting me very angry, I got everything from practicing the techniques in a zen spirit, in fact more than I was expecting, and my expectations were already incredibly high when I came to my knowledge session. If you don't believe me I'll give you my wifes number. I grilled her about her experiences for months, to the finest detail, we're talking hundreds of hours, through the night almost every night for months. Like you I was certain this planet needed this experience big time, BIG TIME, and not because of what he said, but from my own experience, and I knew of this experience in detail before I'd even heard of any spiritual practice, I'd had contact with that experience for two years because of acid, in fact our group I treipped with, called that state, 'knowing' and 'knowledge'. It also took me over ten years to leave because I was desperate for this experience to be shared, but the guy is a complete incompetent. Even so when I left, I left still not certain if he was god incarnate and it was all some gigantic lila because after all that time it was painfully obvious that there wasn't a chance in hell he'd get the message over. During the ten years I was disecting his role, my analysis went WAY deeper than you've just presented, and obviously I gave him loads of slack, that's why it took ten years for chrissakes.

Mel, I suspect you're in the same state I was before I left, you couldn't handle the possibility that he's a fraud and incompetent because of the loss of hope, or whatever, that thinking that way brings, and you're scared stiff of losing that experience, so scaredf that even someone with your intelligence in other environments (rights issues etc) has to be in denial.
To be fair, I will say that this is the nearest to an honest discussion I've ever had with a premie here, but even so you're still displaying typical cult denial at key points in your argument. Mel you have a dependency problem after all these years, and need to take a break. He is never gonna spread this knowledge, and you know it. I suspect you also know that iof you did walk it wouldn't affect your experience one iota, and that's because, like me, you've always been outside the org and set up the conditions where it could work.
Mel you're giving him way too much slack, and you're a better person than he ever deserves, like so many of us were.
Outside of this I suspect we'd probably have ok contact.

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Date: Mon, Jul 24, 2000 at 01:00:10 (GMT)
From: Katie
Email: None
To: hamzen
Subject: Very good post, Hamzen. And Mel...
Message:
Thanks, Hamzen. (And I also think Mel is an intelligent and compassionate person.)

Mel, you wrote:
If you were the 'Master' committed to spreading Knowledge around the world, and you knew that in a certain area or country if you presented it in a particular way that it would not be accepted, would you change your presentation? If this new presentation was not accepted in another cultural environment, would you adapt it to suit that environment, even if it led to some people of accusing you of lying? Would you in fact be lying? What would you do given the Knowledge may be rejected if not presented according to 'local conditions'? Give up spreading Knowledge? Quite a 'moral' dilemma isn't it and it has to be balanced with the what you believe is the overwhelming need in the world for Knowledge. Would you let the 'moral' issue outweigh the 'need' for Knowledge to be spread or would you maintain your moral integrity and shirk what you felt was your duty?

Mel, I am not clear whether you are talking about how he presents knowledge in the 'West' or in India, here. I do think, however, that you are giving the argument that the ends justify the means, and I do NOT think that is right. Lying, or pre-varicating, or manipulating by 'presentation' is NEVER right - and, in the case of someone who is supposed to be the 'master' of a spiritual discipline, is completely unacceptable.

Maharaji and Elan Vital are now marketing knowledge in an effort to appeal to the most likely consumer - isn't that what you are saying? I can accept that people who are trying to sell products, and politicians do this (although it makes me angry then, too), but this is someone who is supposed to be revealing truth!

IMHO, Maharaji should just start charging for knowledge up front - it would be more honest, and people would indeed 'value' it more if they had to pay a lot of money for it! Then he could get rid of the gratitude and devotion stuff, and the need to constantly emphasize his so-called 'exclusive connection' with knowledge.

Mel, with all due respect, I really think you are rationalizing this, and that, as Hamzen says, you would NOT accept this kind of marketing scheme from someone else. (For example, would you feel OK about Tony Robbins, or someone like him, going to India and pretending to be a guru or a 'perfect master'? Well, Maharaji has done the opposite.)

I do NOT deny your experiences with knowledge - I just question their connection to Maharaji. And I agree with Hamzen that you are a better person than Maharaji deserves.

Take care -
Katie

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Date: Sun, Jul 23, 2000 at 15:41:44 (GMT)
From: hamzen
Email: None
To: melbourne
Subject: mel, your post's blank, and has been for hours
Message:
Normally that clears after 3/4 hour or so, so can't respond I'm afraid.
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Date: Sat, Jul 22, 2000 at 12:43:55 (GMT)
From: buzz
Email: None
To: hamzen
Subject: Then you to are in major disagreement with gm
Message:
for the last time im not pro rawat!!
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Date: Sat, Jul 22, 2000 at 21:46:58 (GMT)
From: hamzen
Email: None
To: buzz
Subject: Errr buzz I was speaking to Mel not you (nt)
Message:
a
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Date: Sat, Jul 22, 2000 at 05:07:38 (GMT)
From: buzz
Email: None
To: Jerry
Subject: The mystic's proof
Message:
gerry im not saying that what i exp in med is proof of rawats authenticity or of anyone else im just saying that doing certain techniques not necessarily k. can result in certain feelings and exps.i'm not pro rawat so please dont take me as.a lot of people took k to get an exp. surely not to worship some fat guy.
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Date: Sat, Jul 22, 2000 at 09:16:10 (GMT)
From: JohnT
Email: None
To: buzz
Subject: The mystic's proof (aka stinking thinking)
Message:
Hi buzz,

Here's an example of the kind of 'mystical' nonsense some PWKs believe...

Take this simple statement- 'I enjoy K and respect M. I do not believe he has intentionally forced or deceived anyone to take K'. Will anyone on this forum accept that I am an intelligent, informed adult who is having a beautiful experience caused by Knowledge?

Now, Rawat is a most contemptable con artist; liar; fraud; hypocrite and false god. He certainly deceived legions into believing he and his techniques are something UNIQUELY AND DIVINELY special. There is much evidence to this effect on this site.

Yet, in the 'mind' of this poor deluded fool, Rawat's respectability and K's efficacy seem to have become linked.

'Because k works for me, m must be OK'

Duh!!

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Date: Sun, Jul 23, 2000 at 01:58:55 (GMT)
From: Mel Bourne
Email: None
To: JohnT
Subject: The mystic's proof (aka stinking thinking)
Message:
John

'Because k works for me, m must be OK'

You're guilty of a bit of 'stinkin thinkin' yourself if this is the way you interpret what I've said

'Because k works for me, m was right about what he said about it' would be closer to the mark! It has nothing to do with 'respectablity'

Mel the 'deluded fool'

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Date: Sat, Jul 22, 2000 at 10:55:44 (GMT)
From: ham
Email: None
To: JohnT
Subject: 'Because k works for me, m must be OK'
Message:
Got stuck for ten fucking years on that one myself, and I didn't even believe he was competent, without the added lila baggage I would have been out of there years before, so even in my detached state I was seriously warped in the brain.

Without lila the whole shebang would have crumbled, and that's why almost no younger people would come now, that whole naivete thing was the glue. Thank god for social evolution.

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Date: Sat, Jul 22, 2000 at 12:41:04 (GMT)
From: buzz
Email: None
To: ham
Subject: 'Because k works for me, m must be OK'
Message:
it actually started working better when trying yoganandas technique
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Date: Sat, Jul 22, 2000 at 16:55:50 (GMT)
From: cq
Email: None
To: buzz
Subject: 'Cos heroin works for me, my dealer must be OK'?nt
Message:
Not that I'm into H, you understand.
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Date: Sat, Jul 22, 2000 at 09:26:32 (GMT)
From: JohnT
Email: None
To: buzz
Subject: More stinking thinking
Message:
Hamzen: Do you believe anyone else who doesn't follow gm, could have these (K) experiences or not?

Mel Brooks: I have absolutely no idea, but it's certainly possible.

Duh!!

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Date: Sun, Jul 23, 2000 at 02:10:03 (GMT)
From: Mel Brooks
Email: None
To: JohnT
Subject: More stinking thinking
Message:
Wrong again John

Not stinkin' thinkin', just honest thinkin'

I don't know what others experience, but I admit they may experience something similar, what's wrong with that?

You are the one with the stinkin' thinkin' because you cannot admit that the way I see and experience Knowledge can have any validity. This is the typical ex's 'self protection' tactic to ridicule anything a premie might say on anything to preserve your own paradigm. You seem quite shallow on the basis of your commentd although I would like to suspect that yyou have more substance. You r comment is at the very leasts arrogant and bigotted.....Duhhh

Mel

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Date: Sun, Jul 23, 2000 at 06:37:58 (GMT)
From: JohnT
Email: None
To: Mel Bourne
Subject: Mel's stinking thinking
Message:
Hamzen: Do you believe anyone else who doesn't follow gm, could have these (K) experiences or not?

Mel: I have absolutely no idea, but it's certainly possible.

So Mel, let's take this nice and slow.

1) You have no idea (if a person who does not follow gm (like buzz, for example) could have these (K) experiences.

2) You consider it's certainly possible.

Mel, old son, you get to pick one or the other, not both. You have been speaking out of both sides of your mouth for so long, you cannot drop the act, even to yourself.

Challenged on this you bleat
don't know what others experience, but I admit they may experience something similar, what's wrong with that?
The fact you also claimed you had 'no idea' whether they could...

and you then whine
You are the one with the stinkin' thinkin' because you cannot admit that the way I see and experience Knowledge can have any validity.
Direct sensation is just that - direct sensation. What is the meaning of green?

What you have failed to do is usefully to reason about your experiences. You've compounded that foolishness by attacking people who have successfully managed to reason and understand.

Like I said, Mel. You do stinking thinking. It's because you are in a cult.

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Date: Sat, Jul 22, 2000 at 12:38:40 (GMT)
From: buzz
Email: None
To: JohnT
Subject: More stinking thinking
Message:
yes
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Date: Sat, Jul 22, 2000 at 04:53:24 (GMT)
From: buzz
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: med
Message:
hi salam .this is what ist all about for me. i took k cuz i wanted to exp.something differant from what i'd known up to that point i wasnt sure what was gonna happen.ive med.for years now because i like the exp,i live a normal life otherwise.the med really took off when i got into yoganandas,med.which basically is very sim to k.i found out about holy name from a baiji that follows m,s brother. she took k when 9yrs old and has given k for around 20 yrs this is how holy name is shown important you do the nectar teq, at same time.i know med. doesnt seem to work for every one but my point is a lot of people took k. to get some sort off buzz and all im saying is it can get pretty blissy.like i said im not into rawat but i am into the k.techniques etc/.
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Date: Sun, Jul 23, 2000 at 10:27:27 (GMT)
From: jondon
Email: None
To: buzz
Subject: Bajji
Message:
Is this Bajji broad now a chef for M? I know that in London there is a chef, who often travels with M and crew to cook for them. Her name is Bajji. Based out of London.
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Date: Sat, Jul 22, 2000 at 05:55:24 (GMT)
From: Salam
Email: None
To: buzz
Subject: Can you elaborate a bit on this bajji thing, who
Message:
is she, how did you find her, what is her relationship to K and gm and what is she doing now?

Salam

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Date: Sat, Jul 22, 2000 at 12:37:48 (GMT)
From: buzz
Email: None
To: Salam
Subject: Can you elaborate a bit on this bajji thing, who
Message:
she is in my city at an ashram i found by a little searching she is with satpalji
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Date: Sat, Jul 22, 2000 at 15:44:04 (GMT)
From: Salm
Email: None
To: buzz
Subject: So you are saying that there is this person that
Message:
recieved knowledge from gm when she was 9, did whatever she did, decided that knowledge needs a bit more polishing by making a cocktail with yogananda's teaching of yoga and now she has her own fermentation menthod. Am I getting you right?

Your posting is a bit difficult to read, I wish you write without using shorthand.

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Date: Sat, Jul 22, 2000 at 17:07:27 (GMT)
From: Tonette
Email: None
To: Salm
Subject: He may not be able to write
Message:
I think he's been doing too much of this med stuff. He doesn't synapse anymore nor does he want too.
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Date: Sat, Jul 22, 2000 at 17:21:39 (GMT)
From: Salam
Email: None
To: Tonette
Subject: He may not be able to write
Message:
Or he could be doing the old woodpecker trick.
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Date: Sat, Jul 22, 2000 at 21:52:12 (GMT)
From: Selene
Email: None
To: Salam
Subject: I would not write
Message:
Why should he give that info to her? Who is she anyway?

Selene, on a roll with the anonymity thing. I tend to get obsessive.

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Date: Sat, Jul 22, 2000 at 03:08:56 (GMT)
From: la-ex
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: carolyn myss on gurus...
Message:
I thought I might share a few things from a lecture I went to with Carolyn Myss.She is a medical intuitive, who unlike many 'new age' healer types, actually backs up a lot of what she does with science.She works with a harvard trained surgeon and has written a number of best seller books.
Anyway, I'm not trying to promote her one way or another, but I do thing think she has something to say about spiritual matters.
So, someone in the audience says to her, 'What about gurus?What do you think about them?'
If she wasn't talking about m, it must have been his twin brother that she was talking about.
Paraphrasing her, she said:
'These gurus, especially some of them, they come here and pretend to actually be perfect.Some of them have actually tried to convince people that they are perfect.
Well,they're certainly not,and boy are they in for trouble when their followers realize they are not perfect.
They generally have a shadow side, or secret life, that is outrageous, far more than the followers would ever imagine.And when it comes out, becomes it always comes out sooner or later, boy do those followers hate that guru.
And the more they try to pretend they are divine, or perfect,the bigger and uglier that shadow side is, and the worse it is.
And some of these guys are in for a big fall.'

At this point the person in the audience asks:'What should the guru do when people find out all this stuff?'

Carolyn says:'The best thing and the only right thing to do, is to come down off the pedestal, be a human being, confess, tell the truth, admit they are not perfect and are probably more screwed up than their devotees, ask for their forgiveness and see what happens.'

The audience member says:'Do you think they would do that?'

Carolyn says:'They almost never do the right thing, because to admit that would be such an ego blow, it would crush them.And they have every bit of an ego as the next guy.
What they generally do is, disappear from the scene where they are discovered, and go to some other part of the world where people will still worship them.They can't look at themselves, even though that may part of their message to the followers.'

Does this sound like anyone we know?

(Apologies to Ms. Myss.The transcript is not exact, but that is the essence of what she said.)

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Date: Sat, Jul 22, 2000 at 04:53:37 (GMT)
From: Joe
Email: None
To: la-ex
Subject: Wow, fits Maharaji to a 'T'
Message:
I was talking to someone, can't remember who ::)), who was suggesting that Maharaji realizes the shit is hitting the fan and he is preparing to spend a lot more time in the outback of Australia and in India. And since Maharaji has so far failed to admit his errors and human failings, his removing himself from the scene would seem to be the way to avoid the 'blow to his ego.'
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Date: Sat, Jul 22, 2000 at 15:34:29 (GMT)
From: Elaine
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: I agree - M will run away nt
Message:
nt
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Date: Sat, Jul 22, 2000 at 09:49:16 (GMT)
From: Jean-Michel
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: Rawat's had huge funraisings for Amaroo in 99
Message:
according to some recent exes (Bidouc) on the French Forum.

He promised having mega intl programs there that never took place, and premies got VERY much disapointed.

Lots of premies got into debts etc, to donate money, usual scenario.

And that's been a worlwide racket !!!

I bet the money's been used to build him a huge residence there. And I bet Rawat's lawyers won't move against me for defaming his spotless persona.

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Date: Sat, Jul 22, 2000 at 20:14:24 (GMT)
From: Joey
Email: None
To: Jean-Michel
Subject: J-M, that just might explain the following
Message:
While I don't have the inside scoop from any 'moles' or recent exes here in Canada, I've just received this week some documents submitted by EV Canada to the charities division of Revenue Canada.

While I don't have figures for 1998 (they're on the way), I do have figures for 1996, 1997 and 1999.

While EV Canada's declared gross receipts for 1996 and 1997 were $438,422 and $448,124 respectively (Canadian dollars of course),
the figure for 1999 shot up to $792,101.
Please note that while the 'total direct expenditure outsideCanada' was $136,710 for 1996 and $142,350 for 1997, this figure also shot up for 1999 to $240,630.
Interestingly enough, these funds are sent by EV Canada outside the country according to a memorandum of understanding with the Elan Vital Foundation (EVF) Switzerland.

I'll provide more info if you want, unless someone beats me to the punch , and relieves me of the responsibility :::)))

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Date: Tues, Jul 25, 2000 at 03:41:12 (GMT)
From: V.Interested
Email: None
To: Joey
Subject: Where do you live?
Message:
Der Joey,

Where do you live in Canada? Anywhere near that scoundrel, Jim?

Cheers,

V. Interested

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Date: Tues, Jul 25, 2000 at 03:48:46 (GMT)
From: Selene
Email: None
To: V.Interested
Subject: Joey lives inside a patch I swallowed last week
Message:
Hey Joey check it out? Let's tell V. Interested where you live.
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Date: Mon, Jul 24, 2000 at 07:52:39 (GMT)
From: Jean-Michel
Email: None
To: Joey
Subject: I don't think so
Message:
Most national EVs have always been transfering money to the EVFoundation for the jet's support.

Maybe the EVF also sends money to Oz to support the Amaroo's development project, but I doubt it. Up to 1996 when I left EV, the funds for Amaroo have always been sent directly to Oz.

And according to the figures I remember, the amount sent by Canada to Switzerland is quite near to the amount that used to be sent by France.

My guess is that this is what's been regularly sent by Canada for the G4, and that money send to Oz is sent by individuals or groups of premies, to avoid having this appearing in EV's accounts. And also because Almaroo is very likely privately owned! You can't have a charity or whatever non profit org sending money to that type of private company !!!

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Date: Sat, Jul 22, 2000 at 14:41:49 (GMT)
From: G
Email: None
To: Jean-Michel
Subject: That is true
Message:
I heard an announcement in 1999 that at least $450,000 had been raised in a fundraising drive. I don't know if that was the figure for the US or worldwide. The excuse for not having the intl program at Amaroo in '99 was that the site was not 'ready' and some blah blah blah about quality. The announcer was clearly upset.

I wonder how much more money Rawat wants for the 'site' to be 'ready'. Even with all the money raised and all the years the site has been there, premies at the recent small surprise (i.e. inadequate notice) program at Amaroo ended up sitting on the grass.

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Date: Sat, Jul 22, 2000 at 11:00:00 (GMT)
From: hamzen
Email: None
To: Jean-Michel
Subject: I'll give him his due, as a con he's a good one.
Message:
To still get away with it thirty years later, and with the same people, is seriously impressive!
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Date: Sat, Jul 22, 2000 at 03:33:40 (GMT)
From: gErRy
Email: None
To: la-ex
Subject: goober should listen to Ms Myss... (nt)
Message:
yes he should
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Date: Sat, Jul 22, 2000 at 03:36:08 (GMT)
From: gerry
Email: None
To: gErRy
Subject: ps to goob...
Message:
cut yer losses, pal, you've made yer dough. If you don't want to go back to india (I don't blame you) go to mauritania or bumfuque egypt. But go. Disappear. Yer done.
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