Forum V: Archive
Compiled: Wed, Aug 02, 2000 at 01:36:49 (GMT)
From: Jul 20, 2000 To: Jul 28, 2000 Page: 4 Of: 5


GAC -:- YOUR LINK AS REQUESTED -:- Fri, Jul 21, 2000 at 20:12:54 (GMT)
__ Joe -:- The Political Fight for Maharaji's Heliport -:- Fri, Jul 21, 2000 at 20:47:38 (GMT)
__ __ SB -:- Political maybe -:- Fri, Jul 21, 2000 at 22:02:54 (GMT)

cq -:- QUOTE 'as clearly as the sun shines in the sky'... -:- Fri, Jul 21, 2000 at 19:12:33 (GMT)
__ la-ex -:- QUOTE 'as clearly as the sun shines in the sky'... -:- Sat, Jul 22, 2000 at 03:26:17 (GMT)
__ __ cq -:- He's very clever, - on each successive listening: -:- Sat, Jul 22, 2000 at 17:53:04 (GMT)
__ __ Joe -:- QUOTE 'as clearly as the sun shines in the sky'... -:- Sat, Jul 22, 2000 at 04:07:58 (GMT)
__ __ __ cq -:- You got it Joe, he's so plastic, you can read just -:- Sat, Jul 22, 2000 at 15:51:15 (GMT)
__ __ __ ham -:- Language games with premies -:- Sat, Jul 22, 2000 at 08:46:49 (GMT)
__ Susan -:- I did. -:- Fri, Jul 21, 2000 at 21:43:43 (GMT)
__ __ cq -:- You did? (like, throw up?) -:- Sat, Jul 22, 2000 at 17:23:26 (GMT)
__ __ __ la-ex -:- You did? (like, throw up?)-great analysis -:- Sat, Jul 22, 2000 at 19:24:46 (GMT)
__ __ Joe -:- Really? -:- Fri, Jul 21, 2000 at 22:06:20 (GMT)
__ __ __ Susan -:- read watched it again. I think I may have -:- Fri, Jul 21, 2000 at 22:11:16 (GMT)
__ __ Susan -:- watched it again... -:- Fri, Jul 21, 2000 at 22:03:08 (GMT)
__ __ __ Joe -:- Right, Susan.... -:- Sat, Jul 22, 2000 at 04:15:53 (GMT)
__ JHB -:- CQ - I need to contact you -:- Fri, Jul 21, 2000 at 20:50:55 (GMT)
__ P-man -:- unbelievable -:- Fri, Jul 21, 2000 at 20:30:15 (GMT)
__ Joe -:- What a Bastard.... -:- Fri, Jul 21, 2000 at 19:46:21 (GMT)
__ __ Jerry -:- Compulsive liar? -:- Fri, Jul 21, 2000 at 20:55:18 (GMT)
__ __ __ Joe -:- Fool some of the people all the time... -:- Fri, Jul 21, 2000 at 21:06:17 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ ham -:- I'm beginning to think he gets pleasure from -:- Fri, Jul 21, 2000 at 23:53:42 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Lardi is -:- Ultimatley, evil. -:- Sat, Jul 22, 2000 at 11:56:04 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ hamzen -:- Frightening isn't it! (nt) -:- Sun, Jul 23, 2000 at 15:38:33 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ sb -:- No kidding -:- Sun, Jul 23, 2000 at 16:39:21 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ ham -:- The guys confidence in being such a liar -:- Sun, Jul 23, 2000 at 16:59:44 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ SB -:- No comprendo -:- Sun, Jul 23, 2000 at 19:11:40 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ ham -:- Yes -:- Sun, Jul 23, 2000 at 23:02:50 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ SB -:- LOLOLOLOL........(nt) -:- Mon, Jul 24, 2000 at 00:41:27 (GMT)
__ __ Jethro -:- He said -:- Fri, Jul 21, 2000 at 20:27:58 (GMT)
__ __ __ cq -:- he no good getting peoples' feet on the ground!(nt -:- Fri, Jul 21, 2000 at 20:30:48 (GMT)
__ __ hamzen -:- It's all porky's lila, same as it ever was -:- Fri, Jul 21, 2000 at 20:13:19 (GMT)
__ __ __ Susan -:- Children of God heavenly deception -:- Fri, Jul 21, 2000 at 21:38:07 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Jethro -:- Krishnas call it ..... -:- Sat, Jul 22, 2000 at 09:27:25 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Jerry -:- Krishnas call it ..... -:- Sat, Jul 22, 2000 at 13:42:54 (GMT)
__ __ cq -:- How do premies from the 70s reconcile this? -:- Fri, Jul 21, 2000 at 19:58:13 (GMT)
__ __ __ Joe -:- How do premies from the 70s reconcile this? -:- Fri, Jul 21, 2000 at 20:09:45 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ cq -:- How do premies from the 70s reconcile this? -:- Fri, Jul 21, 2000 at 20:29:30 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ gerry -:- He's a cocky little fucker... -:- Sat, Jul 22, 2000 at 01:20:30 (GMT)

cq -:- QUOTE 'why Jesus came as Guru Maharaj Ji' -:- Fri, Jul 21, 2000 at 18:25:09 (GMT)
__ Ben Lurking -:- QUOTE 'why Jesus came as Guru Maharaj Ji' -:- Sat, Jul 22, 2000 at 12:21:24 (GMT)
__ Mark -:- QUOTE 'why Jesus came as Guru Maharaj Ji' -:- Fri, Jul 21, 2000 at 22:02:25 (GMT)

buzz -:- med. -:- Fri, Jul 21, 2000 at 17:49:56 (GMT)
__ cq -:- '...to paradise by way of Kensal Green'? -:- Fri, Jul 21, 2000 at 18:38:19 (GMT)
__ __ hal -:- '...to paradise by way of Kensal Green'? -:- Sat, Jul 22, 2000 at 10:56:00 (GMT)
__ __ __ CQ -:- yOW! mind you don't kill off too many braincells -:- Sat, Jul 22, 2000 at 16:29:40 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Hal -:- yOW! mind you don't kill off too many braincells -:- Sat, Jul 22, 2000 at 19:34:48 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ ham -:- Hal, I don't think that's strictly true -:- Sun, Jul 23, 2000 at 09:21:00 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Stonor -:- yOW! mind you don't kill off too many braincells -:- Sat, Jul 22, 2000 at 19:31:32 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ cq -:- yOW! etc. (OT) -:- Mon, Jul 24, 2000 at 10:58:56 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Hal -:- Hi Stonora senhora -:- Sun, Jul 23, 2000 at 12:42:59 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Stonora -:- Hey Halo! -:- Sun, Jul 23, 2000 at 15:59:57 (GMT)
__ __ __ buzz -:- '...to paradise by way of Kensal Green'? -:- Sat, Jul 22, 2000 at 12:59:28 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ G -:- punctuation? -:- Mon, Jul 24, 2000 at 04:18:12 (GMT)
__ Katie -:- well, be careful -:- Fri, Jul 21, 2000 at 17:54:01 (GMT)
__ __ buzz -:- well, be careful -:- Fri, Jul 21, 2000 at 17:56:27 (GMT)
__ __ __ Salam -:- I am sorry I called all sorts in the other thread, -:- Fri, Jul 21, 2000 at 18:06:07 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ gerry -:- It's not in Grey's Anatomy, here's what I found -:- Sat, Jul 22, 2000 at 00:59:51 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Salam -:- Exactly the point Gerry, that is what I want to -:- Sat, Jul 22, 2000 at 03:58:15 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ ham -:- Magnifying ther moment -:- Sat, Jul 22, 2000 at 09:05:01 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ gerry -:- Exactly the point Gerry, that is what I want to -:- Sat, Jul 22, 2000 at 05:04:06 (GMT)

Joe -:- Can't Let this Go --- 49 -:- Fri, Jul 21, 2000 at 17:38:32 (GMT)
__ Joe -:- My Partial Response -:- Fri, Jul 21, 2000 at 17:40:58 (GMT)
__ __ 49 -:- My Partial Reply -:- Sun, Jul 23, 2000 at 15:27:06 (GMT)
__ __ __ Joe -:- Good God -:- Mon, Jul 24, 2000 at 17:39:12 (GMT)
__ __ Jethro -:- Remember he said -:- Fri, Jul 21, 2000 at 18:55:15 (GMT)
__ __ Joe -:- Also to 49... -:- Fri, Jul 21, 2000 at 17:45:42 (GMT)
__ __ __ 49 -:- Also to 49... -:- Sun, Jul 23, 2000 at 15:31:27 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Joe -:- Also to 49... -:- Mon, Jul 24, 2000 at 17:42:10 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Jerry -:- Also to 49... -:- Sun, Jul 23, 2000 at 21:07:30 (GMT)

P-man -:- Attn: FA re: shroomananda -:- Fri, Jul 21, 2000 at 15:36:41 (GMT)
__ Forum Admin -:- Attn: FA re: shroomananda -:- Fri, Jul 21, 2000 at 17:36:30 (GMT)
__ __ Forum Admin -:- Shroomananda... -:- Fri, Jul 21, 2000 at 18:13:40 (GMT)

Way -:- video clip? -:- Fri, Jul 21, 2000 at 14:58:29 (GMT)
__ Salam -:- video clip? -:- Fri, Jul 21, 2000 at 16:07:27 (GMT)
__ Jim -:- Video clip? -:- Fri, Jul 21, 2000 at 15:54:15 (GMT)
__ __ Joe -:- Are you sure, Jim? -:- Sat, Jul 22, 2000 at 04:13:12 (GMT)

NEWS FLASH -:- In a recent secret meeting, gm expressed to a -:- Fri, Jul 21, 2000 at 14:22:31 (GMT)
__ Susan -:- no one has posted any response to this -:- Fri, Jul 21, 2000 at 21:24:11 (GMT)
__ __ G -:- 'news flash' might just want ex's email addresses -:- Fri, Jul 21, 2000 at 23:19:38 (GMT)
__ __ __ ~sb~ -:- For what? (nt) -:- Mon, Jul 24, 2000 at 00:42:45 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ G -:- to spam them? I don't know. -:- Mon, Jul 24, 2000 at 03:29:45 (GMT)

JtF -:- Do you want to throw up this morning? -:- Fri, Jul 21, 2000 at 08:53:04 (GMT)
__ Sir Dave (Secret Agent) -:- Sounds good. When can I join? -:- Sun, Jul 23, 2000 at 07:10:01 (GMT)
__ Zelda -:- Jim! Read JtFs post here- Remarkable NT -:- Fri, Jul 21, 2000 at 19:16:10 (GMT)
__ Zelda -:- Its Entrapment. -:- Fri, Jul 21, 2000 at 10:59:21 (GMT)
__ __ Shintaro -:- No Zelda, it's English -:- Fri, Jul 21, 2000 at 12:57:34 (GMT)
__ __ __ cq -:- QUOTE: 'Following Maharaji's TEACHING' ... -:- Fri, Jul 21, 2000 at 19:28:37 (GMT)
__ __ __ SB -:- BS!! Shintaro. IT IS A CULT. -:- Fri, Jul 21, 2000 at 14:19:35 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Zelda -:- Shintro: Forked-Tonged Document- ENTAGLES ENTRAPS -:- Fri, Jul 21, 2000 at 19:11:42 (GMT)

SB -:- Old Elan Vital/M mental manipulation:Same as today -:- Fri, Jul 21, 2000 at 06:28:11 (GMT)
__ Mel Bourne -:- Old Elan Vital/M mental manipulation:Same as today -:- Fri, Jul 21, 2000 at 11:14:58 (GMT)
__ __ cq -:- QUOTE: 'He was going to clothe and feed the world' -:- Fri, Jul 21, 2000 at 19:36:49 (GMT)
__ __ JohnT -:- Old Elan Vital/M mental manipulation:Same as today -:- Fri, Jul 21, 2000 at 18:57:12 (GMT)
__ __ Jerry -:- Old Elan Vital/M mental manipulation:Same as today -:- Fri, Jul 21, 2000 at 17:45:02 (GMT)
__ __ SB -:- Mel, I know who you are... -:- Fri, Jul 21, 2000 at 14:01:06 (GMT)
__ __ __ Mel Bourne -:- 'Mel, I know who you are...' challenge! -:- Sat, Jul 22, 2000 at 07:51:25 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Felix the... -:- 'Mel, I know who you are...' challenge! -:- Sat, Jul 22, 2000 at 15:18:51 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Mel Bourne -:- ... K and D cat -:- Sun, Jul 23, 2000 at 01:51:17 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Felix the ... -:- ... K and D cat -:- Sun, Jul 23, 2000 at 07:47:21 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Mel Bourne -:- ... K and D cat -:- Sun, Jul 23, 2000 at 11:34:16 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Informant -:- Nigel: Mel is talking about you!! -:- Sun, Jul 23, 2000 at 15:09:46 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ SB -:- Not literally... -:- Sat, Jul 22, 2000 at 11:52:41 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Mel Bourne -:- Not literally... -:- Sun, Jul 23, 2000 at 02:32:20 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ SB -:- No challenge at all, you are right. -:- Sun, Jul 23, 2000 at 11:52:31 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Jim -:- Well said, SB (nt) -:- Sun, Jul 23, 2000 at 14:31:10 (GMT)
__ __ __ Jim -:- Who is he, SB? + (JM, u might want that stuff too -:- Fri, Jul 21, 2000 at 16:26:18 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ SB -:- You got it, right? -:- Sun, Jul 23, 2000 at 16:43:02 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ SB -:- I'm done trying to reason with premies... -:- Fri, Jul 21, 2000 at 22:14:19 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ X -:- Who is Jim -:- Fri, Jul 21, 2000 at 17:51:27 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Katie -:- You shouldn't have mentioned my name! -:- Fri, Jul 21, 2000 at 17:56:16 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ X -:- Y -:- Sat, Jul 22, 2000 at 22:49:57 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Hal -:- Y -:- Sun, Jul 23, 2000 at 12:48:38 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Selene -:- It's not fair -:- Sat, Jul 22, 2000 at 17:25:00 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Katie -:- I don't have access! -:- Sat, Jul 22, 2000 at 17:59:37 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Jim -:- And support it I do! Fuck anonymity! -:- Sat, Jul 22, 2000 at 17:47:01 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Hal -:- Anonymity- But really would it make any difference -:- Sat, Jul 22, 2000 at 19:30:29 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Selene -:- Yes it would make a difference -:- Sat, Jul 22, 2000 at 20:31:17 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Jim -:- I think it would -:- Sat, Jul 22, 2000 at 19:54:40 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ cq -:- Can we not just say - some do, some don't? -:- Sat, Jul 22, 2000 at 17:59:30 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Jim -:- You jjust proved my point, cq! -:- Sat, Jul 22, 2000 at 18:20:42 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ SB -:- There is no others Fakiranands? -:- Sat, Jul 22, 2000 at 19:55:33 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Jim -:- And you prove my point too, SB -:- Sat, Jul 22, 2000 at 20:09:55 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Selene -:- it is usually just an excuse -:- Sat, Jul 22, 2000 at 20:40:23 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Selene -:- all right Jim. -:- Sat, Jul 22, 2000 at 18:28:13 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Katie -:- to Selene :) -:- Sun, Jul 23, 2000 at 13:38:17 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Brat S -:- Me. (nt) -:- Sun, Jul 23, 2000 at 19:13:19 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Katie -:- Not you! -:- Sun, Jul 23, 2000 at 21:14:21 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Selene -:- is it better not to know? you may be right but.. -:- Mon, Jul 24, 2000 at 05:16:56 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Jim -:- I just want to know, can I go back to sleep now? -:- Sat, Jul 22, 2000 at 18:34:37 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Selene -:- thanks Jim -:- Sat, Jul 22, 2000 at 17:54:51 (GMT)
__ __ Salam -:- Mel, dedication is a good virtue, except you are -:- Fri, Jul 21, 2000 at 12:59:41 (GMT)

la-ex -:- what I like about this site... -:- Fri, Jul 21, 2000 at 05:19:01 (GMT)
__ SB -:- Very Nice. Thanks for your sincerity. (nt) -:- Fri, Jul 21, 2000 at 06:45:53 (GMT)

Elaine -:- Interesting site I found... -:- Fri, Jul 21, 2000 at 01:23:33 (GMT)
__ Elaine -:- Interesting site I found... -:- Fri, Jul 21, 2000 at 17:05:43 (GMT)
__ __ cq -:- what would be your agenda? -:- Fri, Jul 21, 2000 at 19:45:55 (GMT)
__ __ Katie -:- Interesting site I found... -:- Fri, Jul 21, 2000 at 17:46:15 (GMT)
__ __ gerry -:- Bingo, Elaine, manipulation -:- Fri, Jul 21, 2000 at 17:38:05 (GMT)
__ __ __ Elaine -:- Misinterprations are you're main prob w/ me. -:- Fri, Jul 21, 2000 at 22:07:57 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Elaine -:- And forgot.... -:- Fri, Jul 21, 2000 at 22:39:33 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ gerry -:- Well you're a piss poor communicator then -:- Fri, Jul 21, 2000 at 23:12:29 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ SB -:- Have you tried amends? -:- Fri, Jul 21, 2000 at 23:09:38 (GMT)
__ __ __ Katie -:- Manipulation - not sure, but some questions? -:- Fri, Jul 21, 2000 at 18:09:51 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Elaine -:- Look at 'Misinterpetations' post above. -:- Fri, Jul 21, 2000 at 22:16:48 (GMT)
__ Salam -:- Elaine, it is OK to look for somethig else -:- Fri, Jul 21, 2000 at 13:11:50 (GMT)
__ __ gerry -:- 'Seeking' is a lost cause, don't encourage it. (nt -:- Fri, Jul 21, 2000 at 16:23:46 (GMT)
__ SBe quick! -:- Don't come back here then: Go there!! -:- Fri, Jul 21, 2000 at 06:42:28 (GMT)
__ gerry -:- Fuck you Elaine -:- Fri, Jul 21, 2000 at 03:25:17 (GMT)
__ __ Katie -:- Heckling Elaine? -:- Fri, Jul 21, 2000 at 10:53:48 (GMT)
__ __ __ cq -:- Well said, Katie. (nt) -:- Sat, Jul 22, 2000 at 17:30:11 (GMT)
__ __ __ Dr Reich -:- An analysis of Elaine -:- Fri, Jul 21, 2000 at 15:38:42 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ JohnT -:- Yecccchhhhhhhhh! Blurghhhhhhhhh! Ugh! Retch!! (nt) -:- Fri, Jul 21, 2000 at 18:11:44 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Salam -:- To the DOC -:- Fri, Jul 21, 2000 at 16:34:32 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ SB -:- To the DOC -:- Fri, Jul 21, 2000 at 22:50:38 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Selene -:- you are processing it -:- Sat, Jul 22, 2000 at 05:49:01 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ SB -:- Thanks for your understanding -:- Sat, Jul 22, 2000 at 13:35:50 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Katie -:- Selene and SB -:- Sat, Jul 22, 2000 at 13:12:43 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Selene -:- hi Katie yes you see my side I know that -:- Sat, Jul 22, 2000 at 16:52:46 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Katie -:- P.S. to SB (ot) -:- Sat, Jul 22, 2000 at 13:20:39 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ SB -:- P.S. to SB (ot) -:- Sat, Jul 22, 2000 at 13:46:32 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Selene -:- Gerry, gerry and gErRy are the same? -:- Sat, Jul 22, 2000 at 16:40:03 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ SB -:- LOL. Split personalities. (nt) -:- Sat, Jul 22, 2000 at 20:02:47 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Selene -:- Is it really Lots Of Laughs? -:- Sat, Jul 22, 2000 at 22:52:01 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ gerry -:- Exactly, my feelings also, well said, SB (nt) -:- Fri, Jul 21, 2000 at 23:21:47 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ SB -:- Thanks (nt) -:- Sat, Jul 22, 2000 at 00:13:39 (GMT)
__ __ __ SB -:- Heckling Elaine? -:- Fri, Jul 21, 2000 at 14:43:32 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Katie -:- To SB -:- Fri, Jul 21, 2000 at 15:49:57 (GMT)
__ __ __ gerry -:- Heckling Elaine? -:- Fri, Jul 21, 2000 at 14:23:45 (GMT)
__ __ __ Shintaro -:- Heckling Elaine? -:- Fri, Jul 21, 2000 at 13:20:47 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ cq -:- Obviously not THAT well informed, Shintaro -:- Sat, Jul 22, 2000 at 17:35:31 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Jim -:- I can answer that -:- Fri, Jul 21, 2000 at 16:03:33 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Katie -:- 'Shouting down' was my analogy -:- Fri, Jul 21, 2000 at 16:31:26 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ SB -:- The content as with beauty is to be 'judged' -:- Sat, Jul 22, 2000 at 00:10:15 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ gerry -:- Katie you're missing a HUGE point here -:- Fri, Jul 21, 2000 at 16:45:09 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Katie -:- Katie you're missing a HUGE point here -:- Fri, Jul 21, 2000 at 16:53:43 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ gerry -:- Ok, maybe you and JohnT are right. -:- Fri, Jul 21, 2000 at 16:59:15 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Katie -:- Well, you don't have to be 'nice'... -:- Fri, Jul 21, 2000 at 17:09:03 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ SB -:- And Elaine is civil? Please!! -:- Sat, Jul 22, 2000 at 01:22:35 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Salam -:- Shintaro, obviously knowledge is not working for -:- Fri, Jul 21, 2000 at 14:06:38 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Katie -:- Heckling Elaine? -:- Fri, Jul 21, 2000 at 13:46:28 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ JohnT -:- Respecting M? -:- Fri, Jul 21, 2000 at 13:33:39 (GMT)
__ __ __ JohnT -:- Nice one, Katie. Respect. -:- Fri, Jul 21, 2000 at 11:47:00 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ gerry -:- Yes, thanks JohnT and here's the deal... -:- Fri, Jul 21, 2000 at 14:55:52 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Katie -:- Gerry, what's the point? -:- Fri, Jul 21, 2000 at 16:04:07 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ SB -:- To play her game at times, responding -:- Sat, Jul 22, 2000 at 01:38:58 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ gErRy -:- Gerry, what's the point? -:- Fri, Jul 21, 2000 at 16:20:43 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Katie -:- Gerry, what's the point? -:- Fri, Jul 21, 2000 at 16:48:38 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ SB -:- Thse two paragraphs... -:- Sat, Jul 22, 2000 at 02:23:51 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ gerry -:- SB was smart, gutsy and perceptive... -:- Fri, Jul 21, 2000 at 18:55:01 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ JohnT -:- Not a dummy. But strangely unaware. -:- Fri, Jul 21, 2000 at 15:53:24 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Katie -:- One point, JohnT -:- Fri, Jul 21, 2000 at 16:06:52 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ JohnT -:- Indeed so ... -:- Fri, Jul 21, 2000 at 19:43:21 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Katie -:- Thank you, JohnT -:- Fri, Jul 21, 2000 at 13:51:28 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ SB -:- Sometimes she tells you what you want to hear (nt) -:- Sat, Jul 22, 2000 at 02:26:21 (GMT)
__ __ Tom -:- Fuck you Gerry -:- Fri, Jul 21, 2000 at 04:58:52 (GMT)
__ __ __ RobertB -:- I love these threads -:- Fri, Jul 21, 2000 at 12:10:46 (GMT)


Date: Fri, Jul 21, 2000 at 20:12:54 (GMT)
From: GAC
Email: None
To: JM
Subject: YOUR LINK AS REQUESTED
Message:
Tips wrote:

This is interesting!
Hey we paid for it so it's public ;-)

Identity: CL1Ø
Location: MALIBU, CA, ANACAPA VIEW ESTATES HELIPORT
Tie In FAC: HHR
Cntr: ZLA

JM - Here's the link:

http://www2.fallingrain.com/air/index.cgi?info=14878

So-so map.

GAC

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Date: Fri, Jul 21, 2000 at 20:47:38 (GMT)
From: Joe
Email: None
To: GAC
Subject: The Political Fight for Maharaji's Heliport
Message:
In 1981, Maharaji was despirately trying to get a heliport for himself on his property in Malibu because it was such a serious and terrible burden on him to ride in a luxury limosine all the way to and from LAX where his private luxury jet was kept.

There was a major fight in Malibu about this, with Maharaji's neighbors, who were already suspect given the population of premie undesirables who had descended into their posh area to be near the living Lord, concerned that there would be additional noise, wind damage, etc.

A hearing was to be held to get the planning commission to okay the heliport, and in a clumsy attempt to pretend to have some political strength, Maharaji, through Michael Dettmers, contacted the various California premie communities to send bodies to fill the hall where the hearing was held. According to Dettmers, whom I spoke to personally about this, the purpose was to 'give the impression of political strength' (translation:
to make it appear that the hall was full of premie Malibu residents who would vote for the members of the commission who supported the heliport, even though most of the premies were from someplace else.)

So, a bunch of premies in San Francisco, got in cars and drove all night (500 miles) to get to the hearing, and sitting in the hall without the slightest clue what the issues were. Apparently, Maharaji's lawyer was suggesting that he would let his heliport be used for fire fighting.

If I remember correctly, the heliport was voted down. At some point later a heliport, with a very limited number of take-offs and landings allowed per month, was approved.

Some time ago I did a Nexis search and uncovered an article from the late 80s that said Maharaji was trying to increase the allowed usage of his heliport. One of the arguments was that since Maharaji always had a 'large entourage,' allowing more use of the heliport would reduce traffic on the windy roads and on PCH. Maharaji lost, and the quotes from the commissioners were amusing, mostly saying things like: 'who does he think he is?'

All this is somewhere in the archives.

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Date: Fri, Jul 21, 2000 at 22:02:54 (GMT)
From: SB
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: Political maybe
Message:
I own a video where maharaji, I don't have at hand but he said this more than once, makes a comment that because some people who has knowledge are so 'important' it would be difficult for them to come to one of maharaji's events and that it would cause the streets around the hall to be sorrounded by security. I believe he was promoting his videos, as to say that videos are such a good way to people 'to stay in touch with him', as in that case, when premies' professions don't allow them to go to his events. Maybe he was just trying to impress the premies.
Or, say that he has connections...That would explain a lot. Can be interesting to know who is helping him perpetuate his lies and play his 'GOD' game.
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Date: Fri, Jul 21, 2000 at 19:12:33 (GMT)
From: cq
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: QUOTE 'as clearly as the sun shines in the sky'...
Message:
Under the press kit section entitled 'opposing views', FAQ on Elan Vital's website,http://www.elanvital.org/faq_opposing_views.htm# under the heading 'Did Maharaji ever say he was God?' Mr Rawat now presents his so-called 'evidence' that he never claimed that in video format.

However, the evidence is self-contradictory:

Two clips appear of the Maha. The first one has him saying the following:


'If you want that peace, if you want that joy, I can give it to you. And that's all it takes. That's all it is.

I'm not sitting here going, 'Yes, I am the Messiah and I'm the Prophet', ah - ah, I was saying this back in the (apparent edit here) seventies (laughter).

I'm not saying I'm the Messiah, or I'm a Prophet, or I'm a this or I'm a that. But if you want that peace in your heart, and if you want that joy in your heart, - I can make that happen. And I'm still saying that. Forget about the rest...'

The other clip has him saying this:

'So many times I have been called for an interview and the person would ask me ... '...Are you God?', and long time ago, long time ago, there was a video made, there was actually a movie, shot in 16 millimetre, and there was a video made, and as clearly as the sun shines in the sky, well, I mean I'd be so clear to a lot of people, but at least for those who do see it, as clearly as the sun shines in the sky, I said 'I'm not God'. And yet that just went on and on and on and on and on.'


I strongly suggest you access the EV website to hear the man saying this himself.

(then find your own space to throw up).

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Date: Sat, Jul 22, 2000 at 03:26:17 (GMT)
From: la-ex
Email: None
To: cq
Subject: QUOTE 'as clearly as the sun shines in the sky'...
Message:
After listening to m's little video, it definitely seems to me that he IS saying the he used to say he was the messiah in the 70's, and then casually dismissing it.He actually says to not listen to that stuff, even though he was the one saying it.

I think all of this current revisionism on his web sites is a direct response to the MRC letter.

The more he tries to wiggle out, the more stuck he gets.

Congratulations to everyone who contributes here at EPO...

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Date: Sat, Jul 22, 2000 at 17:53:04 (GMT)
From: cq
Email: None
To: la-ex
Subject: He's very clever, - on each successive listening:
Message:
you end up hearing what you want/expect to hear - even when your expectations change!

Phew!. How lucky I am to have gotten out of that weasel's clutches.

& don't forget, - kudos to you too, la-ex.

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Date: Sat, Jul 22, 2000 at 04:07:58 (GMT)
From: Joe
Email: None
To: la-ex
Subject: QUOTE 'as clearly as the sun shines in the sky'...
Message:
I think the little video of Maharaji on the Elan Vital website is a good example of the problem Elan Vital has with its own 'master.' He is so incoherent in the way he speaks that you can watch that video and honestly you can't tell whether Maharaji is saying he used to say in the 70s that he was the messiah, OR he used to say he WASN'T the messiah. Elan Vital is stuck with using Maharaji's own words that can be easily intrepreted to contradict their own FAQs. It's really quite pathetic. Only Maharaji can leave someone more confused on an issue after he opens his mouth than before he did.
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Date: Sat, Jul 22, 2000 at 15:51:15 (GMT)
From: cq
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: You got it Joe, he's so plastic, you can read just
Message:
about anything you want into his vaccuous witterings.

Maybe he's just playing it safe, so that in another 20 years time he can re-write his re-written history all over again.

PS -re. yesterday's 'wiser than serpents' post: It could have been the booze talking, ;) but I think what I was trying to get at was that the only ones who would stick around such an obvious con-artist are probably those who've got some sort of vested interest in his scam. i.e. they've got a finger in his money-making pie as well.

Serpent=symbol not just of the medics (cf. the cadduceus) but also of the mercantile world too.

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Date: Sat, Jul 22, 2000 at 08:46:49 (GMT)
From: ham
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: Language games with premies
Message:
That whole game of pissing around with words and language, that complete lack of transparency, gets reflected perfectly in every premie that comes here too.

It's based upon an arrogance, that if it wasn't so adolescent and incoherent, would be definitely evil.

And I'm sure they can only justify their non-use of language, and lack of shame, because of their belief that those who know are superior.

Classical hierarchichal medieval thinking which now manifests through new age belief systems. That's why I think anything discussed around that stuff is DIRECTLY relevant to gm. In this society the only way they can get away with guru worship is under that slippery new age umbrella, otherwise they'd be as obvious as any god & the devil middle ages priest from the vatican.
That slippery stuff I never had before contact with porky, but my god, I'm still digging out bucketloads of it from the recesses of my brain, even now ten years on.

And apologies, Kennedy not Roosevelt!! :)

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Date: Fri, Jul 21, 2000 at 21:43:43 (GMT)
From: Susan
Email: None
To: cq
Subject: I did.
Message:
It sure SOUNDS like he is saying he said he was God in the seventies to me. Like it doesn't matter that it was the seventies?

But the next quote totally contradicts it.

These guru people are whacked.

Who is their audience anyway? I think it is the PWKs they are losing, the aspirants they are losing.

The only way out would be for him to be completely honest about his past and take responsibility for his actions. That seems impossible given his propensity to blame everyone around him for everything.

Pathetic.

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Date: Sat, Jul 22, 2000 at 17:23:26 (GMT)
From: cq
Email: None
To: Susan
Subject: You did? (like, throw up?)
Message:
Hope you feel better for it, Susan, (if that's what you meant by 'I did'). As they say: better out than in.


Notice in the second clip in the video, he gives three 'examples' that are intended to incite a 'no'-response:

1. He cites the reporter as asking if he can speak 34 languages. Obvious response: no. ('where did that come from' he asks)

2. Is it true you can you appear and disappear? he says he was asked. Obvious response: no. (says he doesn't know where that came from either)

3. 'ARE YOU GOD?' - M says he doesn't know where that comes from either. The tendency is to give the same, supposedly 'obvious' response.

The placing of that third question is designed to get the same answer as the first 2 questions - i.e. the reporter must be obviously wacko for asking such questions.

This is how he tries (and fails) to re-write his personal history.

The published material (books, magazines etc) that he tried to recall and have destroyed still exist. THEY prove the extent to which he lied and continues to lie.

Fortunately for those of us who still have some space for truth in our lives, those books and quotes still exist, and many are given here on the ex-premie.org website.

The man is obviously not to be trusted.

How do I know?

Simple. I listen to what he says.

As the old saying goes: 'A GOOD LIAR NEEDS A GOOD MEMORY'

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Date: Sat, Jul 22, 2000 at 19:24:46 (GMT)
From: la-ex
Email: None
To: cq
Subject: You did? (like, throw up?)-great analysis
Message:
CQ-your analysis of the way m lists the stupid questions is right on.He sets you up with 2 obviously stupid, inane questions, and then tries to sneak the 3rd one by while you're laughing at the absurdity of the first 2.
It kind of reminds me of Maxwell Smart, in the old TV show Get Smart. He would always say things in threes, with the most absurd line being the last one.

It's also interesting how he tries to use this same technique to explain his (lack of) morality.
On the web site, and in his recent talks he tells this story of how he stumbled into a bedroom when he was 13 and saw a naked woman.He loves to tell how he freaked out, and it was so immoral, what this guy was doing with his girlfriend in the bedroom, and how pure he was.
The implication is that he is still so innocent and moral, because he had that one experience when he was 13.
What he doesn't tell you that he is a drunk and a womanizer.

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Date: Fri, Jul 21, 2000 at 22:06:20 (GMT)
From: Joe
Email: None
To: Susan
Subject: Really?
Message:
I haven't listened to it yet, but could he be making some attempt at sarcasm? I mean, how could he say he said he was god in the 70s and then Elan Vital says in writing that he never said it? They really are whacked, or drugged, or brain damaged, or programmed, or stupid, or aliens, or insane, or....
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Date: Fri, Jul 21, 2000 at 22:11:16 (GMT)
From: Susan
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: read watched it again. I think I may have
Message:
misinterpeted it. However, that would be easy to to. Watch it. He says I was saying 'this' back in the seveties. It could mean he was saying he was the messiah. It could mean he wasn't. Judging from the laughter, the audience heard it the way I did the first time around.
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Date: Fri, Jul 21, 2000 at 22:03:08 (GMT)
From: Susan
Email: None
To: Susan
Subject: watched it again...
Message:
' I was saying this back in the seventies'

this could refer to a positive or negative declaration on the subject.

But, of course, we all know what he said, and what we did, what he encouaged, supported and expected. We were there.

He is so used to being surrounded by yes men he has no idea everyone in the world will not swallow every bit of BS that escapes his lips.

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Date: Sat, Jul 22, 2000 at 04:15:53 (GMT)
From: Joe
Email: None
To: Susan
Subject: Right, Susan....
Message:
Isn't it funny that you could take it either way, and that the audience seemed to take it that he said he was the messiah in the 7Os? Of course, most of them know he did, because they heard him.
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Date: Fri, Jul 21, 2000 at 20:50:55 (GMT)
From: JHB
Email: brauns@dircon.co.uk
To: cq
Subject: CQ - I need to contact you
Message:
Chris,

Please email me your telephone number so that I can fulfill a long outstanding obligation:-)

Regards,

John.

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Date: Fri, Jul 21, 2000 at 20:30:15 (GMT)
From: P-man
Email: None
To: cq
Subject: unbelievable
Message:
This really takes the cake. Between 1975-1980 I read every piece of material available with Maharaji's speeches, question and answers, etc. I read old stuff, new stuff, any stuff I could get my hands on. I paid for stuff, got it free, lifted it, read it on the toilet, anything I could get anywhere I could read it. I bought tapes, borrowed tapes, watched videos, films, and went to live speeches of Maharaji. I nearly memorized every word he said. I hung on every word he said.

Dozens of times, maybe hundreds, Maharaji referred to himself as the Lord, superior power in person, the same as Jesus, Krishna and Buddha. He said not even a leaf shakes on a tree without his Grace; the Grace of Guru Maharaj Ji, of which he spoke thousands of times.

His assistants said he was the Lord and begged us to worship him. In my initiation I was prompted to say 'I surrender the reigns of my life to Guru Maharaj Ji.'

Quotes of Maharaji referring to himself as the Lord and God have been posted here hundreds of times.

With this latest denial on his website (elanvital.org), Maharaji lies through his teeth and makes the biggest fool possible of himself. Only Hitler's henchmen at Nurenberg could make bigger fools of themselves.

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Date: Fri, Jul 21, 2000 at 19:46:21 (GMT)
From: Joe
Email: None
To: cq
Subject: What a Bastard....
Message:
'So many times I have been called for an interview and the person would ask me ... '...Are you God?', and long time ago, long time ago, there was a video made, there was actually a movie, shot in 16 millimetre, and there was a video made, and as clearly as the sun shines in the sky, well, I mean I'd be so clear to a lot of people, but at least for those who do see it, as clearly as the sun shines in the sky, I said 'I'm not God'. And yet that just went on and on and on and on and on.'

After a bout of spilling my guts at the toilet, I re-read the latest drivel from Maharaji that you are quoting here, with it's attendent lies.

First, Mahararji hasn't given an 'interview' in 27 years, the last one being that disastrous one at Millennium. One would think that if he wanted to make clear that he wasn't God, he might have said something before this. Funny also that Maharaji never showed us this supposed movie in which he denied he was god. In the interview he did on the Merv Griffin Show which was a little before Millennium, Merv asked Maharaji why his followers say he is God, and Maharaji said: 'Ask them why they say that.' When Merv pressed the question, Maharaji said, 'I don't say that I am God.' He NEVER in the course of that interview on national television said he wasn't God. It was clear from the interview that he implied that he was.

Of course, Maharaji doesn't mention all the other terms he called himself that, which not technically the word 'God' state the same thing. Every time we sang in the intro to Arti that he was 'the Superior Power in Person,' words he wrote himself as a substitute for the 'twamava mata...' verses, he said he was God. Of course, we also have is quotes that is is greater than god. Of course, we also have his statements when he said he revealed the same knowledge as Jesus and Krishna.

What a fucking liar this guy is! The premies from the 70s know he is lying. How do they reconcile this?

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Date: Fri, Jul 21, 2000 at 20:55:18 (GMT)
From: Jerry
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: Compulsive liar?
Message:
This guy is wild. He not only lies about what he said. He lies about what he DIDN'T say. I'd love to see that interview where Maharaji says as clearly as the sun shines in the sky, I'm not God. I'd LOVE to see it. In fairness to Maharaji, somebody really should dredge it up. Maybe a premie. How's about it, Mel? Shroo? Why don't one of you guys find that interview and straighten us out real quick about what Maharaji said about being God. Be forwarned, though. If you find it (which I doubt), you'll have to reconcile that with all the times he DID say he was God. Sounds like a dilemna.
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Date: Fri, Jul 21, 2000 at 21:06:17 (GMT)
From: Joe
Email: None
To: Jerry
Subject: Fool some of the people all the time...
Message:
....This seems to be the moto of both Maharaji and Elan Vital. Maharaji must think there are enough gullible and ignorant people, who also happen to have enough disposable income, who will accept any inconsistency or lie and will also keep him in planes and luxury automobilies till he is cold in the ground. I think as long as he can hold that group together, nothing else really matters.
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Date: Fri, Jul 21, 2000 at 23:53:42 (GMT)
From: ham
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: I'm beginning to think he gets pleasure from
Message:
abusing people, having power over, because fundamentally he's so frozen emotionally, it's the only way he knows he's alive.

Think he really understands our vulnerability, our need, why we were there in the first place.

And like someone who sexually knows they're wanted, can tease and tease, fuck with heads, but will never ever let you get close.

A control freak voyeur.

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Date: Sat, Jul 22, 2000 at 11:56:04 (GMT)
From: Lardi is
Email: None
To: ham
Subject: Ultimatley, evil.
Message:
do you know a premie said yesterday that m doesn't know how to lie because he is so pure? I laugh so hard I almost pee my pants.
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Date: Sun, Jul 23, 2000 at 15:38:33 (GMT)
From: hamzen
Email: None
To: Lardi is
Subject: Frightening isn't it! (nt)
Message:
a
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Date: Sun, Jul 23, 2000 at 16:39:21 (GMT)
From: sb
Email: None
To: hamzen
Subject: No kidding
Message:
I hate the bastard every day more. Why? Each of his lies that surface prove further that he is a deceiving EVIL person!!!

Over my dead body maharaji...until I die. You ruined my life and that of many others...and you are not going to get away with it!!

Hi hamzen!!

I would like to talk about music with you. One of these days when you are contacting Robyn ask her for my email address, would you?

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Date: Sun, Jul 23, 2000 at 16:59:44 (GMT)
From: ham
Email: None
To: sb
Subject: The guys confidence in being such a liar
Message:
is so outrageous, if it wasn't for the after effects on real lives, you'd almost have to smile.

Have got your address, and am dying to chat, just waiting for time and mood for an e-mail day, got a fucking stack of them to send, I really must go on a typing course, the last time I checked with Mavis Beacon I was on 10wpm, end up avoiding e-mails like the plague!

In tewrms of a laugh, you responded so fast to the shit thread, I felt like I'd been caught with no clothes on, explain that one to me, and you've got the job of my therapist, like pronto!

Really will get onto you soon, well soonish, ie ham time!

And doesn't it feel amazingly therapeutic getting that shit out, after all those years of repression. How he must hate democratic technology, excellent.
Still I do feel sorry for the geezer, after thirty years living on $500,000 a month, having to reduce costs must be very worrying, especially when he knows he's alienating premies big time with stuff like the amaroo fundraising scam.

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Date: Sun, Jul 23, 2000 at 19:11:40 (GMT)
From: SB
Email: None
To: ham
Subject: No comprendo
Message:
In tewrms of a laugh, you responded so fast to the shit thread, I felt like I'd been caught with no clothes on, explain that one to me, and you've got the job of my therapist, like pronto!

What do you mean??

You posted and my answer came right away?

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Date: Sun, Jul 23, 2000 at 23:02:50 (GMT)
From: ham
Email: None
To: SB
Subject: Yes
Message:
So fast it spooked me!
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Date: Mon, Jul 24, 2000 at 00:41:27 (GMT)
From: SB
Email: None
To: ham
Subject: LOLOLOLOL........(nt)
Message:
nt
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Date: Fri, Jul 21, 2000 at 20:27:58 (GMT)
From: Jethro
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: He said
Message:
If guru maharaj ji wanted to
He could unzip the sky
Poke his head through
And make everyone without knowledge
Float 6 inches above the ground
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Date: Fri, Jul 21, 2000 at 20:30:48 (GMT)
From: cq
Email: None
To: Jethro
Subject: he no good getting peoples' feet on the ground!(nt
Message:
sdfhsg
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Date: Fri, Jul 21, 2000 at 20:13:19 (GMT)
From: hamzen
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: It's all porky's lila, same as it ever was
Message:
No wonder none of the premies who come here have any sense of shame, the bad faith that comes from him is like perverted garlic on the breath.

Lila, what a fucking concept.

Lila is porky's way of making the premie equivalent of heavenly deception that the Children of God practiced, be perfectly acceptable, it's been there all the way through.

It really is absolutely disgusting, the man doesn't give a fuck.

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Date: Fri, Jul 21, 2000 at 21:38:07 (GMT)
From: Susan
Email: None
To: hamzen
Subject: Children of God heavenly deception
Message:
well put.
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Date: Sat, Jul 22, 2000 at 09:27:25 (GMT)
From: Jethro
Email: None
To: Susan
Subject: Krishnas call it .....
Message:
divine deception, i.e. it's ok to lie to someone if it causes them to serve krishna
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Date: Sat, Jul 22, 2000 at 13:42:54 (GMT)
From: Jerry
Email: None
To: Jethro
Subject: Krishnas call it .....
Message:
Not too long ago, I heard Maharaji discussing the Bhagvat Gita, where he told of Krishna telling Arjun, 'you fight, I'll watch', or something to that effect, and then he joins in the fight, anyway, after he said he wouldn't. The point M was trying to impress is that the master can make the rules, and he can break the rules. Talk about giving yourself carte blanche to do whatever the fuck you want.
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Date: Fri, Jul 21, 2000 at 19:58:13 (GMT)
From: cq
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: How do premies from the 70s reconcile this?
Message:
Watch the vid on EV's site, Joe - notice how he appears to contradict himself? That way he keeps both sides (both the innocents and the wiser ones) sussed.
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Date: Fri, Jul 21, 2000 at 20:09:45 (GMT)
From: Joe
Email: None
To: cq
Subject: How do premies from the 70s reconcile this?
Message:
So, are you saying that to the 'wiser' ones he keeps the whole idea of 'lila' going? To them, they know he lied, but it's some kind of a perfect 'plan,' or just his unknowable game?

And to the ones who weren't around in the 70s, they think he's telling the truth, because they don't know anything about his 'Lord of the Universe' period?

Is that what you mean?

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Date: Fri, Jul 21, 2000 at 20:29:30 (GMT)
From: cq
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: How do premies from the 70s reconcile this?
Message:
I think I meant that the 'wiser' ones are truly wise ... as serpents.

But on second reading I prefer your interpretation!

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Date: Sat, Jul 22, 2000 at 01:20:30 (GMT)
From: gerry
Email: None
To: cq
Subject: He's a cocky little fucker...
Message:
I finally got the video to play and the first thing he says is 'If you want that peace, that joy, then I can give it to you.'

Now if that isn't the height of arrogance and messianic thinking then I don't know what is.

How the fuck could he GIVE me peace? By doing a piss poor job of explaining four 'bog standard' (thanks Ham) meditation techniques which might not even work for me?

NO, his gig is devotion and 'graditude.' Always was and always will be. He's just fucking lucky some people are wired neurologically to get off on breath meditation. And unfortunately for them, it puts them into an alpha brain state where they are highly susceptible to suggestion. And then he really pores it to them.

I think he knows exactly what he's doing by now. It's nothing less than criminal and I think France has the right idea in protecting its citizens from this type of exploitation.

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Date: Fri, Jul 21, 2000 at 18:25:09 (GMT)
From: cq
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: QUOTE 'why Jesus came as Guru Maharaj Ji'
Message:
Thanks to Jean-Michel for finding this piece of ... (feel free to supply your own desciption - personally I couldn't believe what I'd read)

Christmas Satsang, December 25, 1979, as published in THE DIVINE TIMES, January/February, 1980.

'And there is only one path: to become a devotee, to completely dedicate, to completely be dedicated and to completely let go of this life...And the only reason for this existence is to be a devotee. And the only thing that ever happens is devotion. And this mind, body and soul are focused on one thing and that is devotion to Guru Maharaj Ji.'

'A devotee will follow their Guru Maharaj Ji wherever Guru Maharaj Ji goes and not be involved in anything else.'

Guru Maharaj Ji's Grace is that power that pulls you out....Guru Maharaj Ji's Grace is that power that saves a being. And only when we become a devotee, only then are we even capable of receiving that Grace.'

'And the ones who deserve it get it. When those devotees those beings who have recognized their Guru Maharaj Ji, those
beings. And once I was just reading that statement of Kabirdas. And he says, 'PEOPLE WHO CONSIDER GURU MAHARAJ JI SOMETHING ELSE ARE DEFINITELY BOUND TO HELL.'' THERE'S NO IF'S, AND'S AND BUT'S ABOUT IT.'

'And what do you want for Christmas?...Nobody thinks about why Jesus came into this world. Nobody thinks of that: what's really true of Knowledge, why Jesus came as Guru Maharaj Ji for those devotees, revealed Knowledge to them, gave them that experience. Nobody remembers that. Because Christ came. His purpose, was for sat chit and anand. What he came in this world for, what he revealed in this world, was this Knowledge, that love, that devotion...For a devotee it's always Merry Christmas because there is never a time in this world when Guru Maharaj Ji isn't here.'

But I mean the devotee's prayer to Guru Maharaj Ji always is, 'Oh Guru Maharaj Ji, YOU ARE ALL-POWERFUL, you are all merciful. Save me. Give me that help that I need in my life.'

And this from the guy who now says:

'But I was saying right from the beginning: I'm not a messiah'

Just how close to claiming to be the Messiah can you get?

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Date: Sat, Jul 22, 2000 at 12:21:24 (GMT)
From: Ben Lurking
Email: None
To: cq
Subject: QUOTE 'why Jesus came as Guru Maharaj Ji'
Message:
But I mean the devotee's prayer to Guru Maharaj Ji always is, 'Oh Guru Maharaj Ji, YOU ARE ALL-POWERFUL, you are all merciful. Save me. Give me that help that I need in my life.'

See its the DEVOTEE that's making this up, he's not saying he his god. although most reasonable people would make that conclusion, he has his wiggle room. A true con artist. See he implies he is god, he implies that he is the same as Jesus, he implies he is god incarnate by the repeat of this process of masters walking the earth. He quotes Kabirdas, and if one is to believe Kabirdas,
then if you don't believe he is god you are doomed. But he never says it - he just implies it and when everybody falls at his feet and says 'oh lord...' he doesn't bother to correct them, but 20 years later his FAQ tells people we were confused. WHO THE FUCK WOULDN'T BE with a statement like that.

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Date: Fri, Jul 21, 2000 at 22:02:25 (GMT)
From: Mark
Email: Apple4256@datastreet.com
To: cq
Subject: QUOTE 'why Jesus came as Guru Maharaj Ji'
Message:
I Strongly urge that this cited quote be put right on the Homepage of this website,as well as the cover of this forum.Then every premie zealot that arrives here must first address the CLEAR AS THE SUN IN THE SKY Bullshit! Elan Vital and Prem Pal are playing at.

Depending on their openness to genuinely giving their take on what Maharaji's up to in the Truth/Honesty department ,then they can post here. Sort of a truth ante.

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Date: Fri, Jul 21, 2000 at 17:49:56 (GMT)
From: buzz
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: med.
Message:
salam sorry so long replying had to go to work. re.the holy name,you take the breath from the manipura chackra down and then up into the sushumna canal in the spine up over the head to the ajna chackra then down the ida and pingala back to the manipura thus circulating the energy with the sound .after a time the energy really builds and you can really space out.etc. i only went after k.to get high was never into the worship and all that shit but for me it works specially when te breath stops altogether and your hanging around in space.i,m not bullshitting i swear that once it starts working its bloody powerfull.
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Date: Fri, Jul 21, 2000 at 18:38:19 (GMT)
From: cq
Email: None
To: buzz
Subject: '...to paradise by way of Kensal Green'?
Message:
'... before we get to paradise by way of Kensal Green'
G K Chesterton.

buzz, you say: 'it works specially when the breath stops altogether'

Uh?

'stops altogether' ???


er, for how long, exactly?

(PS, you're not a zombie, are you?)

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Date: Sat, Jul 22, 2000 at 10:56:00 (GMT)
From: hal
Email: None
To: cq
Subject: '...to paradise by way of Kensal Green'?
Message:
Hi cq,

No he's not bullshitting . There is a state which both my wife and myself have experienced in meditation (in our ex premie phase not when 'practising Knowledge') which is called in Yogananda terminology the breathless state. The breath can stop on the outbreath for a few minutes without any discomfort and the experience is a very tripped out brainstate, perhaps samhadi or whatever it's been called. I really loved it the couple of times it happened. It was like the very highest acid experience.

HAL

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Date: Sat, Jul 22, 2000 at 16:29:40 (GMT)
From: CQ
Email: None
To: hal
Subject: yOW! mind you don't kill off too many braincells
Message:
Hal!

The lack of oxygen to the brain might account for a decidedly 'altered state' - but are you sure there are no side-effects?

Kind of reminds me of Malcolm McDowell in 'IF...' (the film by Lindsay Anderson) with a plastic bag over his head - or is it close to 'Flatliners'? (I think that's what the movie was called).

Or maybe I'm just a scaredy-cat, but the idea of not breathing for a couple of minutes ... ...wait a minute, that's not so long, is it? - I remember holding your breath competitions we had at prep-school, - though 40 seconds was about all I could manage then (probably accounts for my high blood pressure today!)

But that's not what your talking about, is it? It's not holding the breath, it's just letting it stop. No?

Hmmmmm. I'm not tempted to try it. Next stop: NDE? (near-death experience)

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Date: Sat, Jul 22, 2000 at 19:34:48 (GMT)
From: Hal
Email: None
To: CQ
Subject: yOW! mind you don't kill off too many braincells
Message:
I don't think we've suffered any detrimental effects. People consider us quite capable and ordinary I think.

There's so much fear in letting go. One day we ALL have to , so perhaps those experiences are just a bit of early practice in the art of dying?

Fear of flying cq?

Best wishes
Hal

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Date: Sun, Jul 23, 2000 at 09:21:00 (GMT)
From: ham
Email: None
To: Hal
Subject: Hal, I don't think that's strictly true
Message:
I know the state you're talking about, regularly too, had people come into my room when in it who were very close to dialling 999, thought I was dead, but I WAS breathing, but so slowly that you would have needed a massive magnifying glass to have spotted it. And I'll tell ya it wer'nt easy coming back to motor functions to let em know it was all ok, I can tell ya.

I thought that was a truly beneficial state, the calmness afterwards was always truly gorgeous.

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Date: Sat, Jul 22, 2000 at 19:31:32 (GMT)
From: Stonor
Email: None
To: all
Subject: yOW! mind you don't kill off too many braincells
Message:
Actually, I've read about this somewhere, or learned it in some yoga class, and it was just suggested to find that space between inhalation and exhalation and rest there briefly, without forcing it in any way. It is somewhat peaceful . . . maybe I've never gone to extremes, but all of this 'getting high' stuff at the exclusion of all else? Sorry, I don't get it.

Stonor

(BTW, Chris, might be 'Flatliners' you're thinking of. 'If' is the one where they put a man's head on a sheep's body at some bizarre research clinic, but I don't remember a plastic bag. Haven't seen 'Flatliners'.)

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Date: Mon, Jul 24, 2000 at 10:58:56 (GMT)
From: cq
Email: None
To: Stonor
Subject: yOW! etc. (OT)
Message:
Hi there!

It might be just my memory Stonor, but I could swear the movie you're thinking of wasn't 'If...' but another of Anderson's masterpieces called 'O Lucky Man'.

Haven't a clue what the man's head on a ... pig's wasn't it(?) body was meant to represent, but that was one powerful image.

'If...' on the other hand, was about a teenage rebel (Malcolm McDowell again) at an English public school who ends up gunning down the headmaster at the end of term service. - you can bet that fuelled a few teenage fantasies of mine!

(PS just got your email - will get back to you in a day or two)

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Date: Sun, Jul 23, 2000 at 12:42:59 (GMT)
From: Hal
Email: None
To: Stonor
Subject: Hi Stonora senhora
Message:
Hi Stonor,

Who ever said that being 'high' excluded anything else ? Except being miserable and discontented perhaps! Anyway I don't know anyone who is genuinly high all the time , that is not the state that human beings live in. I like sailing anologies . Sometimes the sea gets stormy and you can struggle not to puke. It seems that it will never get calm again. However in equanimity one knows that all is change and that good follows bad, pleasure pain etc etc. You know that story I'm sure.

It's rather wonderful to have an occasional upliftment of one's consciousness in a natural manner I think. Those profoundly sublime states of awareness have never been something that I can create at will through any scientific yogic techniques. I don't understand why but that's the way it is for me . I would at one time have called them states of grace-the experiences I mean- but nowadays I try not to use vague conceptualisations of them.

Nice to see you posting again Stonora
Love hal

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Date: Sun, Jul 23, 2000 at 15:59:57 (GMT)
From: Stonora
Email: None
To: Hal
Subject: Hey Halo!
Message:
Hey Halo!

How are things in Portugal? Have you been to any of those raves yet?

I haven't heard too many people, and certainly never premies, often talk about much else in terms of their 'experiences' or goal. Although now that I think of it, there have been a few other discussions, I think almost, if not always, with exes. My 'experiences' have been sporadic too, and as many others have mentioned, they have happened in other contexts as well, and yes the sailing analogies are good. Again, the fact that 'it' happens sporadically and in other contexts suggests that that 'it' is not related only to meditation and/or m. I can't believe how premies always at best skate back and forth on that issue, like Deputy dog and Shroom(?).

Did you check out that link I posted about the fourth technique up towards the top? Have you read/heard this description before? It must be nice to have shared many of your experiences over the years with your wife! You two seem to be somewhat of the exception around here, I think, although Brian and Katie fall into that category in a different way.

Been real busy with an extremely intensive summer contract that finishes Friday. And of course there's the garden and the other usual stuff. And I have to start cooking my growing harvest.

Good to hear from you Hal, and doesn't your name work out nicely in the masculino!

Love,

Stonora

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Date: Sat, Jul 22, 2000 at 12:59:28 (GMT)
From: buzz
Email: None
To: hal
Subject: '...to paradise by way of Kensal Green'?
Message:
hal id like to discuss this with you further it was the connection with kriya yoga i believe that got the med working im so glad someone else is getting it too its hard to find others to talk to about it get a lot of spinning sesations could be the kundalini and sometimes shaking it dont scare me i just like to find others with similar things are you into yogananda?
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Date: Mon, Jul 24, 2000 at 04:18:12 (GMT)
From: G
Email: None
To: buzz
Subject: punctuation?
Message:
How about some punctuation and spell I with a capital? It makes reading much easier.
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Date: Fri, Jul 21, 2000 at 17:54:01 (GMT)
From: Katie
Email: None
To: buzz
Subject: well, be careful
Message:
That's an intense thing to do, and frankly, I wouldn't mess around with it, or suggest it to other people (I know, they asked!).
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Date: Fri, Jul 21, 2000 at 17:56:27 (GMT)
From: buzz
Email: None
To: Katie
Subject: well, be careful
Message:
but this is the holy name it just wasant shown in its pure form
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Date: Fri, Jul 21, 2000 at 18:06:07 (GMT)
From: Salam
Email: None
To: buzz
Subject: I am sorry I called all sorts in the other thread,
Message:
I thought you were some sort of weirdo.
Very nice what you said, except I do not see what is the benefit of hanging out into outer space?? can you tell me how does that benefit you?

Salam

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Date: Sat, Jul 22, 2000 at 00:59:51 (GMT)
From: gerry
Email: None
To: Salam
Subject: It's not in Grey's Anatomy, here's what I found
Message:
This Pingala and sushumna stuff: is this superstition or is there some real basis for this?
Meditation info (ha ha elaine, a meditation link)

Sounds like standard med stuff, I guess. I do recall Parlokanand explaining 'Holy Name' in very much the same manner as described by buzz and this link. So I guess that just proves some of those Indian guys knew a whole lot more than goober about meditation. Goober sounds pig ignorant when it comes to anything subtle.

What I'd like to know is what is the point in doing this? I never got much out of it. With one exception, it was boring as hell.

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Date: Sat, Jul 22, 2000 at 03:58:15 (GMT)
From: Salam
Email: None
To: gerry
Subject: Exactly the point Gerry, that is what I want to
Message:
know, what is the purpose of hanging in outer space, looking out of place and doing nothing, I remember having a conversation with a premie one day (he is only a person with knowledge !!?? now) and he asked me so what do you see, I told him, there was this great big light that masks everything else around it, he said and, I said and nothing, only this light and I just look at it, he said why do not you go and travel in other places, I replied, what for? I have always considered this absurd, what is the point of being in or out of the light, even for that matter opening the mother of all chakras. And to add (in case there are some premies around), many times while having a walk on a sunny day all I have to do is cross my eyes a tiny bit and I can see the light against the blue background in the sky, many times I have to make a distraction to shake it off, so what is the big deal?
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Date: Sat, Jul 22, 2000 at 09:05:01 (GMT)
From: ham
Email: None
To: Salam
Subject: Magnifying ther moment
Message:
I think the point of going into the light was that you end up letting go of your usual level of attachment to your body, which is where the relaxation comes from. In that state I found that for someone who came into the room and came close, it appeared I was not breathing at all, a couple of times people were going to phone for ambulances because they thought I was dead!, that's where the aftereffects are, similar state to parts of sleep effects but in waking consciousness.

This is the problem with the new age sloppiness around these practices. Because of their belief system they'll say things like, 'I let go of my body' etc, when actually they were just using bio-feedback mechanisms to activate chemicals that alter their sense of time and space.

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Date: Sat, Jul 22, 2000 at 05:04:06 (GMT)
From: gerry
Email: None
To: Salam
Subject: Exactly the point Gerry, that is what I want to
Message:
Real fast, the ten o'clock movie is about to begin, here's what I think: this description is a pre-scientific explanation of a physical phenomena. All the spiritual trappings associate with breath meditation are mythic and obsolete. Brain science is quickly gaining a more accurate (to say the least) understanding of what's going on 'inside within.' A lot more satisfying than maharji's explanation.
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Date: Fri, Jul 21, 2000 at 17:38:32 (GMT)
From: Joe
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: Can't Let this Go --- 49
Message:
Someone posting as '49' down below, but may also be 'Shroom' considering the illogical revisionism she engages in, said the following, responding to my questions her when she said she had a good time in the ashram and had no regrets.

Sounds like you had a good time in the ashram.

--I did

Do you think it was true that many people didn't have a good time?

--Not really? Most of the people I became friends with in the ashram enjoyed themselves and are still involved one way or another.

How come there are others, upon discovering that Maharaji was no longer God, feel they wasted time devoting their lives to him in an ashram?

--They shouldn't have believed he was God in the first place. They had unreal expectations and were naturally disappointed.

Have you ever considered that, or do you just care whether you, personally, had a good time?

-- Knowledge isn't for everyone. It has been given to hundred of thousands of people after they asked for it. Many didn't think it worth the effort and many did. I think it is worth the effort .

You say people were free to leave the ashram. Did you attend any of the ashram meetings when Maharaji said otherwise?

--I didn't attend any meetings where Maharaji or anyone claiming to speak on his behalf said you couldn't leave the ashram. In fact we had couples leave to get married and get married in the ashram garden.

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Date: Fri, Jul 21, 2000 at 17:40:58 (GMT)
From: Joe
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: My Partial Response
Message:
Well, if you claim that Maharaji never claimed to be God, then you apparently weren't around, or you have really faulty memory, or you are just as revisit as Elan Vital and Maharaji are.

Besides saying he was guru and 'greater than god' he also, personally, added the words to Arti in which he said he was 'the superior power in person.' He also repeatedly compared himself to Jesus Christ and Krishna, and claimed they both revealed the same 'knowledge.' We worshipped him and kissed his feet. Nearly all the premies I knew, truly believed he was the messiah. I frankly can't believe you missed that, and I rather think you are engaging in selective memory.

Maybe you and your friends had a good time in the ashram, but there were many others who didn't. The only reason I stayed in the ashram, which I hated for the most part, and which was very damaging to my career, education and relationship with my family, was because I believed Maharaji was god, the messiah, and therefore I tended to believe him when he said, over and over and over, that the purpose of my existence was to devote my life to him. Since he portrayed himself as god, I tended to have faith in him and believe him.

I attended ashram meetings with Maharaji when he said that to move out of the ashram was a terrible mistake. In 1980, in the ashram meeting in Miami, he said moving out of the ashram was akin to 'moving into a cesspool.' He also said that when he saw an initiator application that said someone had moved out of the ashram it made him so angry he threw it at the wall.

Now really, 49, do you expect me to believe that a 'devotee' upon hearing that, and also hearing Maharaji's repeated statements that we were to 'surrender our lives' to him, that it was okay to move out of the ashram? Please.

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Date: Sun, Jul 23, 2000 at 15:27:06 (GMT)
From: 49
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: My Partial Reply
Message:
Well, if you claim that Maharaji never claimed to be God, then you apparently weren't around, or you have really faulty memory, or you are just as revisit as Elan Vital and Maharaji are.

--Clealry no one person can be the sum total of God since be definition everything is God.

Besides saying he was guru and 'greater than god' he also, personally, added the words to Arti in which he said he was 'the superior power in person.'

--Search the Forum archives, this one has been solved. Who is of greater use- the mechanic who brings you the spare part or the spare part that is back in the factory.

ThisHe also repeatedly compared himself to Jesus Christ and Krishna, and claimed they both revealed the same 'knowledge.'

--I don't believe he compared himself to Jesus or Krishna, he made the point that both these people have said 'What you are looking for is within'.

We worshipped him and kissed his feet.

--A common practice in India.

Nearly all the premies I knew, truly believed he was the messiah.

--So what, let them believe what they like.

I frankly can't believe you missed that, and I rather think you are engaging in selective memory.

--I didn't miss it. I don't base my opinion on what other people think.

Maybe you and your friends had a good time in the ashram, but there were many others who didn't.

--Then they should not have asked to join.

The only reason I stayed in the ashram, which I hated for the most part, and which was very damaging to my career, education and relationship with my family, was because I believed Maharaji was god, the messiah, and therefore I tended to believe him when he said, over and over and over, that the purpose of my existence was to devote my life to him.

--When ideas contradict experience, choose experience.

Since he portrayed himself as god, I tended to have faith in him and believe him.

--Belief without experience equals religion.

I attended ashram meetings with Maharaji when he said that to move out of the ashram was a terrible mistake. In 1980, in the ashram meeting in Miami, he said moving out of the ashram was akin to 'moving into a cesspool.' He also said that when he saw an initiator application that said someone had moved out of the ashram it made him so angry he threw it at the wall.

--I can't comment on this because I have no experience of it.
I never went to such a meeting or heard him say such things.

Now really, 49, do you expect me to believe that a 'devotee' upon hearing that, and also hearing Maharaji's repeated statements that we were to 'surrender our lives' to him, that it was okay to move out of the ashram? Please.

--I accept the concept that the student should surrender to the master.
I believe that in the absence of experiencing any benefit from Knowledge or Maharaji that his teachings, the ashrams, devotion etc are a complete waste of time.

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Date: Mon, Jul 24, 2000 at 17:39:12 (GMT)
From: Joe
Email: None
To: 49
Subject: Good God
Message:
--Clealry no one person can be the sum total of God since be definition everything is God.

This is not an answer to the question. Maharaji claimed to be the INCARNATION of God, not the entire Universe. You know, like you sang every single morning and evening in the ashram during ARTI: He is the SUPERIOR POWER IN PERSON....and he is YOUR ALL, YOUR LORD, and the MAKER OF ALL THINGS CREATED... Get it? Again, you are just lying to yourself, and that is kind of sad.

When ideas contradict experience, choose experience.

This is probably a good motto, but it certainly wasn't Maharaji's motto, who stressed faith, surrender and his commandment to NEVER LEAVE ROOM FOR DOUBT IN YOUR MIND. The commadment here was clear. If your experience contradicted Maharaji's commandment or agya, you were to surrender your 'experience' to his commandment or agya. Again, you are engaging in revisionsism.

-I accept the concept that the student should surrender to the master.
I believe that in the absence of experiencing any benefit from Knowledge or Maharaji that his teachings, the ashrams, devotion etc are a complete waste of time.

These two statements are contradictory if your 'experience' is that you aren't being benefitted. In that case, do you just refuse to 'surrender' to the master? On which occasion, exactly, have you ever heard Maharaji say that?

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Date: Fri, Jul 21, 2000 at 18:55:15 (GMT)
From: Jethro
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: Remember he said
Message:
that if we left the ashram sharks woudl be waiting for us.
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Date: Fri, Jul 21, 2000 at 17:45:42 (GMT)
From: Joe
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: Also to 49...
Message:
49 also says that 'knowledge isn't for everyone' and I think Maharaji may have changed his tune and actually say that from tiime to time now.

How do you reconcile that statement which Maharaji's statement in Philadelphia in 1978 that you would smash into a thousand pieces if you stopped having faith in him, or how 7 tons of vegetables would rot inside you if you stopped practicing knowledge, or that you would go to hell (Christmas satsang, 1979) if you didn't recognize Maharaji as worthy of devotion? Keep in mind that Maharaji was portraying himself as the incarnation of god when he said this.

How could it be possible to think 'knowledge isn'r for me' unless you also rejected Maharaji as a fucking liar?

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Date: Sun, Jul 23, 2000 at 15:31:27 (GMT)
From: 49
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: Also to 49...
Message:
49 also says that 'knowledge isn't for everyone' and I think Maharaji may have changed his tune and actually say that from tiime to time now.

How do you reconcile that statement which Maharaji's statement in Philadelphia in 1978 that you would smash into a thousand pieces if you stopped having faith in him, or how 7 tons of vegetables would rot inside you if you stopped practicing knowledge, or that you would go to hell (Christmas satsang, 1979) if you didn't recognize Maharaji as worthy of devotion? Keep in mind that Maharaji was portraying himself as the incarnation of god when he said this.

--I didn't hear it, so I can't comment on it. I suspect that he didn't mean it literally.

How could it be possible to think 'knowledge isn'r for me' unless you also rejected Maharaji as a fucking liar?

--Or simply not interested.

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Date: Mon, Jul 24, 2000 at 17:42:10 (GMT)
From: Joe
Email: None
To: 49
Subject: Also to 49...
Message:
You didn't hear it? Were you a premie in 1978, 1979 and 1980? That's when he said those things. So, I guess you weren't around, or you were thinking about something else when he said it, like what fun time you were having in the ashram. Sure, people who just ignored what Maharaji said probably did just fine. Keep in mind though, that many of us took him literally. Silly us. You should have told us that he was just kidding.

Jesus, if he didn't mean those things literally, what in the hell do you think he meant?

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Date: Sun, Jul 23, 2000 at 21:07:30 (GMT)
From: Jerry
Email: None
To: 49
Subject: Also to 49...
Message:
Let me ask you, 49. Did you enjoy getting up at 5 in the morning to sing arti? What would motivate you to do such a thing as praise Maharji first thing in the morning, while you're still half asleep, if you didn't believe, as the song says, he was the superior power in person?

Where were you at?

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Date: Fri, Jul 21, 2000 at 15:36:41 (GMT)
From: P-man
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: Attn: FA re: shroomananda
Message:
I'm confused. On Thursday you blocked Shroomananda from posting. You said:

A little detective work found there here were already adequate grounds for giving 'Shroomanda' the boot before he took on this latest alias.

He is no longer welcome on the forum - in this or any of his previous incarnations.

But then he was allowed to continue posting.

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Date: Fri, Jul 21, 2000 at 17:36:30 (GMT)
From: Forum Admin
Email: None
To: P-man
Subject: Attn: FA re: shroomananda
Message:
Clerical error, P-man. (V Busy day). Don't worry, he's on his way...
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Date: Fri, Jul 21, 2000 at 18:13:40 (GMT)
From: Forum Admin
Email: None
To: Forum Admin
Subject: Shroomananda...
Message:
You will never outstay your welcome here…

Ivette and co are waiting for you to share.

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Date: Fri, Jul 21, 2000 at 14:58:29 (GMT)
From: Way
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: video clip?
Message:
Elan Vital has added a new video clip. I can get the video to play, but not the audio, even though my audio is working otherwise. Anybody else having better luck?
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Date: Fri, Jul 21, 2000 at 16:07:27 (GMT)
From: Salam
Email: None
To: Way
Subject: video clip?
Message:
I can not even see the video.
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Date: Fri, Jul 21, 2000 at 15:54:15 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Way
Subject: Video clip?
Message:
It's Quicktime, Way. Download a player, they're everywhere.

In the clip Maharaji says that he doesn't claim to be God -- that, in fact, he's been saying that since the seventies. Gives the old bullshit about people coming to him thinking he speaks 34 languages, that kind of thing. Of course, he's always spoken out of both sides of his mouth. Nothing new there.

What no one outside the cult could ever appreciate, I don't think, in fact, what we ourselves could even forget, is jsut how much his every single word mattered. Maharaji didn't have to give his 'rotten vegetables' satsang or his 'peace bomb' satsang or his 'lift you in the sky and turn you all blue' satsang more than once. We knew them all.

For one thing, there weren't that many satsangs to pick from in the old days. Every publication was important. Every last printed word of Maharaji's mattered. Every last reel-to-reel tape, then cassette, old-style film, then early-day video, mattered. We 'waited the word of the Master', just like the song says, and we heard it all. Our ears were pricked like little puppies. We read, listened to and watched his satsangs over and over and over again.

Who does he think he's fooling?

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Date: Sat, Jul 22, 2000 at 04:13:12 (GMT)
From: Joe
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Are you sure, Jim?
Message:
Jim, look at the video again. I can't tell whether he is saying he USED to say he was the messiah in the 70s, or that he used to say he WASN'T the messiah in the 70s. You could take it either way, and it's really funny that Elan Vital has to resort to something so lame to try to prove their point.

I'm sure Elan Vital is TRYING to show that Maharaji claims to have said he wasn't god in th 70s, but the clip is extremely unclear. But then, Maharaji was incoherent in the 70s too, and apparently still is.

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Date: Fri, Jul 21, 2000 at 14:22:31 (GMT)
From: NEWS FLASH
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: In a recent secret meeting, gm expressed to a
Message:
a secret circle of assosiates ( buzz was not invited), including some old ex-premies friends, that he came to the west aginst his will, that his mother pushed him to say and do all these things that he did not understand. He also expressed that he wants to go back to India to finish school because he feels terriably emmbaressed with his education, he cried when he described how one of his mum's mahatmas has been molisting him for sometime, when asked when he is going back, he stutart saying, oh, I was hopping that we can do some fund raising to fill the airplane fuel tank, he also said that may take a while. On the subject of tax. he said that he never intended to be a tax dogger, he just did not know how to fill the forms, so he asked EV to do it for him. Regarding his plans as to what directions his follwers should take, m became a bit delirious and kept repeating the word hansjihansjihansji which can be translated to daddy daddy daddy.

source: getshaffted@lardys

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Date: Fri, Jul 21, 2000 at 21:24:11 (GMT)
From: Susan
Email: None
To: NEWS FLASH
Subject: no one has posted any response to this
Message:
I suppose because like I was they are suspicious as to the truth of it. Anything you can tell us more that might lend some credibility to this?

This is how I read what you wrote:

There was a meeting with some PAMs and some ex premies and the guru.
( why would they trust ex's at any meeting?)

the topic must have been some of the 'frequently unanswered questions'

The former guru now speaker who never wanted to be a leader or figurehead said:

that he was forced to come to the West by his mom. (Does this mean he regrets it now?)

He is embarrassed by his lack of education. ( Why go back to India to finish? )

He cried that a Mahatma is molesting him? Now? Or when he was a child? Can you clarify this at all?

Airplane fuel?

Tax dodging?

the hans Ji hans ji thing is strange indeed?

This post is very hard to understand, and harder to believe, yet if you can give us some reason to beleive it, I would listen.

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Date: Fri, Jul 21, 2000 at 23:19:38 (GMT)
From: G
Email: None
To: Susan
Subject: 'news flash' might just want ex's email addresses
Message:
and their names.
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Date: Mon, Jul 24, 2000 at 00:42:45 (GMT)
From: ~sb~
Email: None
To: G
Subject: For what? (nt)
Message:
nt
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Date: Mon, Jul 24, 2000 at 03:29:45 (GMT)
From: G
Email: None
To: ~sb~
Subject: to spam them? I don't know.
Message:
It just seems like a weird post. I don't buy what 'news flash' wrote.
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Date: Fri, Jul 21, 2000 at 08:53:04 (GMT)
From: JtF
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: Do you want to throw up this morning?
Message:
This is the Elan Vital Statement of Values:(one big cover your ass disclaimer)

Elan Vital upholds the spirit of tolerance and openness throughout the organization and considers respect for the human being to be one of its most fundamental values.
Elan Vital supports each person’s freedom of choice with regard to their philosophical, political and religious convictions. It rejects all forms of illegal discrimination, including those pertaining to race, nationality, age or gender.

It is also Elan Vital’s position that all persons are free and responsible for their choices of family, professional and social life. The organization neither addresses nor interferes with these areas.

Following Maharaji’s teaching is a personal process and in no way requires involvement with any particular group or organization. Each individual may therefore pursue this teaching without associating with or supporting Elan Vital.

In addition, each person freely decides the nature of their relationship to the teaching: they may follow it for whatever period of time they desire, abandon it if and when they want, and return again as they wish.

The decision to request the Knowledge proposed by Maharaji remains at all times an individual act, conscious and free. This is why minors, in particular, are asked to wait until they are of legal age in order to make their request.

Support for Elan Vital activities, whether personal skills or financial contributions, are voluntary and are made freely. Admission to conferences sponsored by Elan Vital is free, however there are some events where a donation is suggested to cover costs of the meeting.

In the US, Elan Vital is a tax exempt, non-profit organization which promotes Maharaji’s teaching, coordinates events at which he speaks and provides information on activities. In order to provide easy access to the teachings of Maharaji, EV makes a variety of products and distribution methods available, including on-line ordering, in-home satellite broadcast viewing, and mail order video libraries.

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Date: Sun, Jul 23, 2000 at 07:10:01 (GMT)
From: Sir Dave (Secret Agent)
Email: None
To: JtF
Subject: Sounds good. When can I join?
Message:
Oooer missus.
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Date: Fri, Jul 21, 2000 at 19:16:10 (GMT)
From: Zelda
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Jim! Read JtFs post here- Remarkable NT
Message:
NT
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Date: Fri, Jul 21, 2000 at 10:59:21 (GMT)
From: Zelda
Email: None
To: JtF
Subject: Its Entrapment.
Message:
And sinister because it is not until After one recieves knowledge does the consequences for accepting Kowledge start. Before that it is just a nice enough teaching promoted by EV.
By the time someone has recieved knowledge, Elan Vital has disengaged ittself from the process other than providing venues ect.
(Sorry abuot the capitals, I dont have italics available.)

This is quite a clever document really upon analysis:

'Elan Vital upholds the spirit of tolerance and
openness throughout the organization and considers respect for the human being to be one of its most fundamental values.'

!!!So far so good

'Elan Vital supports each persons freedom of choice with regard to their philosophical, political and religious convictions. It rejects all forms of illegal discrimination, including those pertaining to race, nationality, age or gender'

!!! Also sound ok. Particularly the 'religious freedom'bit

'It is also Elan Vital?s position that all persons are free and responsible for their choices of family, professional and social life. The organization neither addresses nor interferes with these areas.'

!!! Wups! they left out religious in that paragraph. So 'all persons' are NOT 'free and responsible for their choices of religious life'. So the organization CAN interfere with the are relating to religious choices.

But here is where is gets downright siniser- because it starts to make a distiction between Marajis TEACHING and the Knowledge.

'Following Maharajis TEACHING is a personal process and in no way requires involvement with any particular group or organization. Each individual may therefore pursue this teaching without associating with or supporting Elan Vital'
!!! So this means that one can listen to the satsang with no strings attatched.:

'IN ADDITION, each person freely decides the nature of their relationship to the teaching: they may follow it for whatever period of time they desire, abandon it if and when they want, and return again as they wish.
!! SO THIS MEANS THAT one can can listen to the teaching and then ASSESS whether they want to make THE DECISION as described below.

The decision to request THE KNOWLEDGE !!proposed!! by Maharaji remains at all times an individual act, conscious and free. This is why minors, in particular, are asked to wait until they are legal age in order to make their request.
!!! Maraji gives the teaching in which he PROPOSES taking knowledge

!!! Then oh THEn the SUPPORT for Elan Vital acivities are voluntary you understand.
'Support for Elan Vital activities, whether personal skills or financial contributions, are voluntary and are made freely.
'Admission to conferences sponsored by Elan Vital is free, however there are some events where a donation is suggested to cover costs of the meeting.'
'Well thats ok isnt it????

'In the US, Elan Vital is a tax exempt, non-profit organization which promotes Maharaji?s teaching, coordinates events at which he speaks and provides information on activities. !!!Elan Vital has nothing but Nothing to do with Knowledge giving.
'In order to provide easy access to the teachings of Maharaji, EV makes a variety of products and distribution methods available, including on-line ordering, in-home satellite broadcast viewing, and mail order video libraries.'

This last paragraph insulates Elan Vital from the trappings for a person who has made the DECISION to take knowledge.

From the point that they recieve knowledge, it is a free fall into a trap. By that time the person is hog-tied into invisible contract to be loyal to the master who has given them this gift. And all donations are voluntary- but gratitude and participation are mentioned in the knowledge session as obvious reciprical response to recieving this gift.

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Date: Fri, Jul 21, 2000 at 12:57:34 (GMT)
From: Shintaro
Email: None
To: Zelda
Subject: No Zelda, it's English
Message:
Hey Zelda,
Read it again!

EV='Elan Vital supports each persons freedom of choice with regard to their philosophical, political and religious convictions. It rejects all forms of illegal discrimination, including those pertaining to race, nationality, age or gender'

Zelda says=!!! Also sound ok. Particularly the 'religious freedom'bit

EV='It is also Elan Vital?s position that all persons are free and responsible for their choices of family, professional and social life. The organization neither addresses nor interferes with these areas.'

Zelda says=!!! Wups! they left out religious in that paragraph. So 'all persons' are NOT 'free and responsible for their choices of religious life'. So the organization CAN interfere with the are relating to religious choices.

Shintaro says= The phrase ''It is also Elan Vital's position' makes it clear that the above position is in addition to 'freedom of choice with regard to their philosophical, political and religious convictions'.

Zelda says= But here is where is gets downright siniser- because it starts to make a distiction between Marajis TEACHING and the Knowledge.

Shintaro says= The Knowledge ( the four technques) are a part of M's teachings but are not the whole of his teachings.

EV= 'Following Maharajis TEACHING is a personal process and in no way requires involvement with any particular group or organization. Each individual may therefore pursue this teaching without associating with or supporting Elan Vital'
!!! So this means that one can listen to the satsang with no strings attatched.:

'IN ADDITION, each person freely decides the nature of their relationship to the teaching: they may follow it for whatever period of time they desire, abandon it if and when they want, and return again as they wish.

Zelda says=SO THIS MEANS THAT one can can listen to the teaching and then ASSESS whether they want to make THE DECISION as described below.

Shintaro says= That's right Zelda. You can listen to M and THEN decide you don't want to isten any more.

EV= The decision to request THE KNOWLEDGE !!proposed!! by Maharaji remains at all times an individual act, conscious and free. This is why minors, in particular, are asked to wait until they are legal age in order to make their request.

'Support for Elan Vital activities, whether personal skills or financial contributions, are voluntary and are made freely.
'Admission to conferences sponsored by Elan Vital is free, however there are some events where a donation is suggested to cover costs of the meeting.'

'In the US, Elan Vital is a tax exempt, non-profit organization which promotes Maharaji?s teaching, coordinates events at which he speaks and provides information on activities. !!!Elan Vital has nothing but Nothing to do with Knowledge giving.
'In order to provide easy access to the teachings of Maharaji, EV makes a variety of products and distribution methods available, including on-line ordering, in-home satellite broadcast viewing, and mail order video libraries.'

Zelda says=This last paragraph insulates Elan Vital from the trappings for a person who has made the DECISION to take knowledge.

From the point that they recieve knowledge, it is a free fall into a trap. By that time the person is hog-tied into invisible contract to be loyal to the master who has given them this gift. And all donations are voluntary- but gratitude and participation are mentioned in the knowledge session as obvious reciprical response to recieving this gift.

Shintaro says= M makes it clear long before someone can ask for K that participation is necessary to get the most out of K. There is even an application form on the EV website.
If that is unacceptable then don't proceed.

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Date: Fri, Jul 21, 2000 at 19:28:37 (GMT)
From: cq
Email: None
To: Shintaro
Subject: QUOTE: 'Following Maharaji's TEACHING' ...
Message:
Following?

But He says He's not a leader.

(Forgive the upper case H - he dropped using them only relatively recently)

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Date: Fri, Jul 21, 2000 at 14:19:35 (GMT)
From: SB
Email: None
To: Shintaro
Subject: BS!! Shintaro. IT IS A CULT.
Message:
Shintaro says= M makes it clear long before someone can ask for K that participation is necessary to get the most out of K. There is even an application form on the EV website.
If that is unacceptable then don't proceed.

Be a servant. Yes, people have to be humble, bla bla bla bla.. YES! Because becoming maharaji's servant is the goal of knowledge. Is time maharaji begin to say that. I'm interested in exposing ElanVital/maharaji fraud; he needs to chande his story ASAP. He almost got my son!! What he does is completly unfair: Trapping people with lies have to become illegal. Perfect master of deceipt.

Don't you see that the only reason Lardy and CO. said all the lies on EV's site is because they are afraid and HAVE a need to cover their asses, quick! If you believe any is because you are a brainwashed premie and it's up to you. You chose to believe it even when there are logical expalantion for what he does. Denial!!

You know it, you just have a need to deny it because your real-self has gone. Brainwashing is very powerful and you adore and justify the one who 'clean' you of you.

Who are you Shintaro? You work with Elan Vital?

Terry Yingling told me once that Elan Vital is in deep debt. Is it really? Maharaji is in debt? Well, he should stop shoping, don't you think, instead of milking the poor premies. In my opinion maharaji is EVIL, get it? Very EVIL. Know that is time to recognize that or shut up. Quit coming here with your repetitive lies! I read you before. Go enjoy your cult. We like remembering how how lucky we are for having left maharaji's cult.

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Date: Fri, Jul 21, 2000 at 19:11:42 (GMT)
From: Zelda
Email: None
To: SB
Subject: Shintro: Forked-Tonged Document- ENTAGLES ENTRAPS
Message:
The trouble is that to the uniintiated it reads like a simple statement of choice and freedom.
It ENTAGLES an average understnding of freedom with forked tounge vocabularuy of spititual enslavement.
Z
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Date: Fri, Jul 21, 2000 at 06:28:11 (GMT)
From: SB
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: Old Elan Vital/M mental manipulation:Same as today
Message:
Am I right? What do you think?

Taken from a Divine Time magazine from same year.

Following is satsang given by Rick Berman, July 6, 1974, Amherst Guru Puja.

I'm going to speak briefly to you about some things that are going on within the mission financially, and then sort of very simply and practically include you in it.

The mission is pretty much stagnant in its activities due to lack of financial support. There about 800 premies who over the past year have worked themselves pretty much crazy trying to support the mission.

We're stagnant at this point. We can't go forward. We can stay where we are, we can support ourselves, we can continue to meet out overhead each month. We can ship away away at the bills that we've incurred from other festivales and so on.

But actually that's not whay we want to do. We want to go forward. We want to move ahead. We want to do what maharaj ji has requested. maharaj ji has requested that the premies do service.

In order for us to have our hearts opened up so that flood of grace can come in, so that we can be connected to maharaj ji, we've got to do what's more practical. The practicality is at this time to serve maharaj ji's mission.

Because maharaj ji's mission is nothing other than an extension of his body. We have to understand this. maharaj ji has started this mission - maharaj ji has put it into motion. maharaj ji has given it direction. maharaj ji has given it projects to work on. maharaj ji has given us the grace to be able to do the things that have been done in the past.

But in order to move ahead, it will require the dedication and the desire on behalf of all of maharaj ji's devotess to get behind it and to push and to work.

It's infortunate that there aren't enough offices, enough projects, and enough things that each one of us can plug into right now so we can be able to work together side by side in DUO offices, or serve in maharaj ji's residence. But there's a service that needs to be done now, and that's what i'd like to talk to you about.

maharaj ji said if you surrender the reins (oh no, satan!!....)of your life to him, he will give you peace. Surrender usually means doing what's most practical. At this point what is more practical is for people to be sending in a fixed amount of money on a weekly basis.

We were talking about a figure like ten percent. Ten percent of whatever you earn each week should come of the top, and should go to maharaj ji's mission. Because that's what is needed at this point. That's what has come about.

I know it's going to happen. Because maharaj ji has graced us with his darshan (when devotees kiss maharaji's feet), and he's graced us with his love. There is no way that anybody can turn their back at that. There is no way that anybody can't realize that at this point, as his devotees, we have to take that step which is the first step in commiting our lives to this movement.

His movement at this time has been defined as Divine Light Mission. It needs your support. We should adjust our lives - adjust or lives to live on ninety percent of what we earn. Whatever job we have, wether it be pumping gas or working in a hospital as doctors or lawyers, that job is our service.

Because the fruits of that action are dedicated at maharaj ji's feet. What more can maharaj ji do for us? It's time we start doing for him - starting putting into action all the plans that he has laid out for us.

In the DUO movie he was so explicit that he was going to turn this world on . He was going to feed and clothe the world. He said that the plan would manifest through his devotees.

Right now in practical terms it means money. There are at least 10,000 thousand people out here. If you just figure that if there are 10,000 people earning eighty dollars a week
giving ten percent that's 80,000 dollars a week more than we have now.

There's a whole hell of a lot of things that can be done with that money. (SB: hell literally, no shit) A lot of prachar can be done. A lot of suffering in this world can be relieved. (SB: Especially teeth.LOL)

It all rest with us, we premies that are sitting here tonight. Not only are we to begin this practical program of dedicating ten percent of our income, but we are to give satsang and help other brothers and sisters who aren't here tonight to understand that support of maharaj ji's mission is support of maharaj ji. Supporting the mission is actually showing and actually making that commitment to maharaj ji.

That's all I had to say. I think it was simple enough and clear enough to understand. Give ten percent that first handful. shri maharaj ji has said if you've got ten handfuls of rice, take the first handful and give it to guru maharaj ji. And if you can make it in the other nine, I'll take care of you.

I really don't think in this economic structure we live in that's going to be so difficult for anybody to come up with ten percent on a regular basis. It'll be a lot easier than trying to squeeze out a large sum when you hear of some certain project or whatever it might be that you are interested in.

There was a procession that went through this place today. It was maharaj ji and he was giving his darshan and his Holy Breath. And there was no holding back. If we can just understand that to hold back at any time from serving maharaj ji and his mission is just cutting us off a little bit more.

I just have to speak what I feel. Because I've seen it inside myself. When I hold back, I'm cutting off my own throat. maharaj ji doesn't want that. He wants us to be able to give. He wants us to be able to receive all that he has to give and in order to do that we have to give everything, give ourselves.

He's not asking you to turn over everything you need to live on. He's asking you to - I'm asking you as the director of his financial situation here, to just give ten percent.
END

Have 'his mission' today, July 2000, changed? Have his organization Elan vital changed the tactics to collect money to provide for maharaji's ostentatious life style? Not at all!! Premies, PAMs, are always busy doing that. Lately is evident that there is a desperation from maharaji to get the premies money at all cost, as always. He's bombarding the premies with satellite events and sponsorships programs. The brainwashing is strong these days and I can understand why: maharaji is uncertain of what awaits for him, so he has to get as much as he can now, quick!! More lies and phony projects...to make maharaji richer and richer...

Mental manipulation...And premies are going to come here to play the game 'amnesia' and accuse us of having total responsability for what we lost serving Lardy so many years? We wanted to be good devotees of Lardy!! How many satsangs like this I heard? I've heard directly from him'worse' ones too, talking about giving EVERYTHING TO maharaji, because we were born to serve the master....In my city, on the 70s, a premie literally would stand at the door of the satsang hall and when premies were leaving she asked one by one: Did you give a donation? So many satsangs I remember of the same subject... To feed and clothe the needy my arss! The only thing the needy greedy bastard ever wanted was material stuff, new toys and he motivated the premies to get it. That were the real projects! What he wanted. And today is the same!

If Elan vital/maharaji think that they can fool everybody with their recent explanations, they don't. Is just a matter of time. Because he has no decency, honesty or morals he can twist and switch the story but strangely, it sound just the same, because it's the same. Money is good...(But he got my money!! Robber liar...) He gets what he wants no matter what! No principles.

And premies, stop saying that maharaji doesn't know what Elan Vital is doing: maharaji is Elan Vital's head, and you know it; you just don't want to believe it!! because he programmed you to think good of him...And premies, what about reasoning? Who is this guy maharaji? Just another con man.

So? You old premies who come here and say you never gave money, where were you on those days?

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Date: Fri, Jul 21, 2000 at 11:14:58 (GMT)
From: Mel Bourne
Email: None
To: SB
Subject: Old Elan Vital/M mental manipulation:Same as today
Message:
Hi SB

Well, I still donate money to Elan Vital to help Maharaji promote Knowledge, and despite all your indignant bluster about what happened in 1974 (over 26 years ago) will continue to do so.

You see, any organisation needs money to achieve it's goals whether it is bowling club, amatuer theatrical group, charity or Elan Vital, and it is not unusual for these organisations to request financial help from interested parties, in fact, its quite reasonable.

I support Elan Vital for the simple reason that I'm satisfied with Knowledge and am quite happy to provide this kind of assistance so that others may be able to receive it as well.

I might add that I also support and send similar amounts of money (not much) to Amnesty International, World Vision, Greenpeace, the Heart Foundation and other charitable organisations to try and help alleviate some of the suffering on this planet. No big deal there, no brainwashing, just a desire to help change everything for the better somehow. I have no reason to believe that any of the organisations that I support misappropriate my donations and this includes EV.

So, I really take exception to your paranoid assertions that I and others have been brainwashed to give money and that there is undue pressure placed on us, nothing could be further from the truth. Your assertions are without foundation and extremely mischievious

Mel

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Date: Fri, Jul 21, 2000 at 19:36:49 (GMT)
From: cq
Email: None
To: Mel Bourne
Subject: QUOTE: 'He was going to clothe and feed the world'
Message:
By now he might have made a start on it, don't you think, Mel, rather than spending so much on himself, his wife and his own offspring?
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Date: Fri, Jul 21, 2000 at 18:57:12 (GMT)
From: JohnT
Email: None
To: Mel Bourne
Subject: Old Elan Vital/M mental manipulation:Same as today
Message:
MB: Well, I still donate money to Elan Vital to help Maharaji promote Knowledge, and despite all your indignant bluster about what happened in 1974 (over 26 years ago) will continue to do so.

So Mel, some dude reckons he's god and gonna save the world. You buy it. The guy does not deliver. You carry on buying. Hmmm... you in a cult or something?

MB: You see, any organisation needs money to achieve it's goals whether it is bowling club, amatuer theatrical group, charity or Elan Vital, and it is not unusual for these organisations to request financial help from interested parties, in fact, its quite reasonable.

I really like the 'charity or Elan Vital' bit. No, it is not reasonable for a, ahem, 'charity' corruptly to enrich its shadow director. I'm sure the UK Charities Commission will agree...

MB: I might add that I also support and send similar amounts of money (not much) to Amnesty International, World Vision, Greenpeace, the Heart Foundation and other charitable organisations to try and help alleviate some of the suffering on this planet. No big deal there, no brainwashing, just a desire to help change everything for the better somehow. I have no reason to believe that any of the organisations that I support misappropriate my donations and this includes EV.

Can you do sums? The wealth that Mr Rawat has milked from his rackets like 'Divine Light'; 'Divine United'; 'Elan Vital' has been well documented. I suggest you check it out old chum - you've made a bit of a silly-arse of yourself again.

MB: So, I really take exception to your paranoid assertions that I and others have been brainwashed to give money and that there is undue pressure placed on us, nothing could be further from the truth. Your assertions are without foundation and extremely mischievious.

Mel, you and others have been brainwashed into thinking that Rawat's rackets are something more than a sordid con.

We have the evidence. We have the brains. We have style and substance. But best, we have YOU, sunshine.

So, is your hero gonna sue? How 'bout you?

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Date: Fri, Jul 21, 2000 at 17:45:02 (GMT)
From: Jerry
Email: None
To: Mel Bourne
Subject: Old Elan Vital/M mental manipulation:Same as today
Message:
You see, any organisation needs money to achieve it's goals whether it is bowling club, amatuer theatrical group, charity or Elan Vital, and it is not unusual for these organisations to request financial help from interested parties, in fact, its quite reasonable.

You're a screamer, Mel. Like every head of a bowling club or theatrical group lives in a mansion and flies a private jet. I don't think that analogy works too well. Try again.

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Date: Fri, Jul 21, 2000 at 14:01:06 (GMT)
From: SB
Email: None
To: Mel Bourne
Subject: Mel, I know who you are...
Message:
and because of that I don't want to answer your response because is a waste of my time. You are a self-appointed sucker supporting a greedy egomaniac guru.

JSCA to you, and enjoy whatever it's that you came to believe and accept.

Don't bother Mel responding to this, don't. I don't enjoy talking with people who pretend to reason when in reality logic has left them long a go. Joined a cult, eh?

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Date: Sat, Jul 22, 2000 at 07:51:25 (GMT)
From: Mel Bourne
Email: mbvictoria@hotmail.com
To: SB
Subject: 'Mel, I know who you are...' challenge!
Message:
SB

Ok, so reveal to me my true identity at my email address above, but as a matter of privacy I trust you will not 'out' me to anyone, publicly or privately without my express permission. (I guess you're aware of the Forum rules on this matter). You may also care to advise me how you came across my identity as well.

You can confide in me your identity if you wish, I'm extremely confidential, and tout KK, a former contributor here and someone I knew well in the old DLM days, as a referee. I correctly identified her which she confirmed in an email to me, but I firmly respect her right to privacy and have no interest in divulging it.

Mel

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Date: Sat, Jul 22, 2000 at 15:18:51 (GMT)
From: Felix the...
Email: None
To: Mel Bourne
Subject: 'Mel, I know who you are...' challenge!
Message:
How about a special K but no D notices
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Date: Sun, Jul 23, 2000 at 01:51:17 (GMT)
From: Mel Bourne
Email: None
To: Felix the...
Subject: ... K and D cat
Message:
Sorry, Felix, you 'K''s and 'D''s are a bit beyond me, would you care to clarify what you mean please..

Thanks

Mel

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Date: Sun, Jul 23, 2000 at 07:47:21 (GMT)
From: Felix the ...
Email: None
To: Mel Bourne
Subject: ... K and D cat
Message:
First Initial of your monicker. Then and now.
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Date: Sun, Jul 23, 2000 at 11:34:16 (GMT)
From: Mel Bourne
Email: None
To: Felix the ...
Subject: ... K and D cat
Message:
Oh I see, but wrong, wrong, wrong .. Felix

I remember sometime ago, I think it was Nigel, got me confused with some other poor fellow from his past, and indirectly 'outed' me as this character, calling me by this guy's full name in his posts here, totally convinced of it he was, some English premie I think, anyway it was most embarrasing for him, but a bit of a laugh for me.

Mel

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Date: Sun, Jul 23, 2000 at 15:09:46 (GMT)
From: Informant
Email: None
To: Mel Bourne
Subject: Nigel: Mel is talking about you!!
Message:
anyway it was most embarrasing for him, but a bit of a laugh for me.

What do you know of embarrasment anyway? You have for long made a fool of yourself: What do you feel? Your embarrasment should have turned to shame if you had a brain to realized what you have said and done for your crappy all too common guru of yours.

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Date: Sat, Jul 22, 2000 at 11:52:41 (GMT)
From: SB
Email: None
To: Mel Bourne
Subject: Not literally...
Message:
No Mel, I don't know your real name. I ment to say I know how you think and where you stand.
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Date: Sun, Jul 23, 2000 at 02:32:20 (GMT)
From: Mel Bourne
Email: None
To: SB
Subject: Not literally...
Message:
SB

...I ment to say I know how you think and where you stand.

Well, Im glad you've worked that out anyway, it's not a huge challenge though, I'm pretty direct.

Mel

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Date: Sun, Jul 23, 2000 at 11:52:31 (GMT)
From: SB
Email: None
To: Mel Bourne
Subject: No challenge at all, you are right.
Message:
To have a fair challenging argument both people have to want logic to prove the argument valid or not. I cannot argue with you. I cannot discuss something openly with you, simply because you are afraid of using real logic. You are pretty direct: You are a premie who like me, I just left, heard and accepted so many concepts from maharaji mainly because you think of him as being the highest authority on bliss. You, me, found just a guru who happens to be a LAIAR. And no excuses please, that I missinterpreted him... Not too many loved Lardy how I did, not too many, but I got sick and tired of hearing his lies and having to make sense of them. Enough.

Don't you get tired of coming here and denying over and over again what's so clear? Devotion sucks!

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Date: Sun, Jul 23, 2000 at 14:31:10 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: SB
Subject: Well said, SB (nt)
Message:
hhhh
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Date: Fri, Jul 21, 2000 at 16:26:18 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: SB
Subject: Who is he, SB? + (JM, u might want that stuff too
Message:
If you really know who Mel is please tell us. The only reason I didn't blow Dogg's cover is because, in a moment of weakness, after I'd guessed that the old premie friend who emailed me and he were one and the same, but before he confirmed that fact, I promised I wouldn't. Otherwise, I can't think of any reason at all to not expose one of these creeps.

Thanks for putting up that old sales pitch, btw. Perhaps JM might want to use it.

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Date: Sun, Jul 23, 2000 at 16:43:02 (GMT)
From: SB
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: You got it, right?
Message:
I 'know him' through his posts, not his identity. Does he has one? I thought that you lose it when you are in the cult. LOL
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Date: Fri, Jul 21, 2000 at 22:14:19 (GMT)
From: SB
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: I'm done trying to reason with premies...
Message:
coming here. They want to know their master? I'll bring here, as much as I can proof, so premies can be reminded hearing the lies of maharaji and HIS organization directly from them.

I was such a devotee of his that I have so much about my fake Lordy, all to prove that maharaji is a stupid con artist liar.

My son typed the crap:He did a good job, didn't he?

Hey Jim, what is your email address again?

S

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Date: Fri, Jul 21, 2000 at 17:51:27 (GMT)
From: X
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Who is Jim
Message:
Who is Jim? A nice guy who rejects creeps (people who don't see the world his way, just say creep: Can't Really Ever Experience Perfection).
Who is Dogg? A friend today. A creep tomorrow.
Who is Mel? The enemy.
Who is SB? Son of a Bitch, you've got it!
Who is Gerry? The naughty one who rants.
Who is Katie? Jims mother.
Who is JM? Don't ask.
Who is X? A variable.
Who will be the next in line at the edge of the universe?
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Date: Fri, Jul 21, 2000 at 17:56:16 (GMT)
From: Katie
Email: None
To: X
Subject: You shouldn't have mentioned my name!
Message:
Especially in that context - it is insulting to both me AND Jim.

I know WHO you are, X, and I don't know it from looking at IP's either!

I think you're basically a good guy, but your posting style is obvious.

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Date: Sat, Jul 22, 2000 at 22:49:57 (GMT)
From: X
Email: None
To: Katie
Subject: Y
Message:
>Especially in that context - it is insulting to both me AND Jim.

Don't take it personal.
You are a forum celeb.
Jim was a forum celeb.
And you both seem to be doing well.
Still on the rampage...

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Date: Sun, Jul 23, 2000 at 12:48:38 (GMT)
From: Hal
Email: None
To: X
Subject: Y
Message:
Jim on the rampage I have seen but Katie? Katie on the rampage ?

Wow that would probably be something to behold! I love both of those guys BTW.

Hal

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Date: Sat, Jul 22, 2000 at 17:25:00 (GMT)
From: Selene
Email: None
To: Katie
Subject: It's not fair
Message:
OK I admit I am in a bad mood about anonymity after having been fucked with for the nth time by stupid suppsed ex's (??) vs. premies (??)

I am so sick of the anonymity here. As if effects me personally.
and *you* have this advantage of being ABLE to look up IP's even if all you get is the Privacy Software trace at least you know something.
Writing style?? yeah OK. I will give you that some people are easily recognized. Happened to me last night. But unlike you, I cannot verify it.

Why am I posting this? Just on a rant about anonymity.
Read EV's statement in the FAQ's they commented about how
'most of the posters on the internet against M are anonymous'
etc... OK.. I am just on a rant.
eesh the only person who supports my feeling here is Jim!!

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Date: Sat, Jul 22, 2000 at 17:59:37 (GMT)
From: Katie
Email: None
To: Selene
Subject: I don't have access!
Message:
Hi Selene -
I can't look up IP's anymore - only the FA's (and Brian) can do that. Just so you know. I can't verify anything. I happen to know who this person is because he's posted under this alias as well as another several times before. I was just a little upset that he said that about me.

Re anonymity - it's necessary for some people, & for good reason, maybe not so necessary for others who choose it. What I really don't like is people posting under DIFFERENT names all the time - my pet peeve.

TC & love -
Katie

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Date: Sat, Jul 22, 2000 at 17:47:01 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Selene
Subject: And support it I do! Fuck anonymity!
Message:
No matter how you slice it, there is weakness in all this running around with masks on. We didn't enter the cult anonymously. We didn't live in it that way. So, really, how people can settle in and apparently even enjoy this shadowy disguise thing escapes me.

Premies post anonymously because they're not even supposed to be here and they're certainly not supposed to be saying half the things they say. They're so confused, being a premie is weird when considered in black and white, you can almost picture Maharaji sitting over them saying 'Will you just shut the fuck up, already?!' Really, ask an old-time premie poster like Mel if he can honestly say that Maharaji wouldn't be pissed off at him personally if he knew that he was posting here, either by what Mel's said or just the very activity itself, and Mel couldn't tell you. The premies don't really know what they can say and where they can say it and thus, anonymity.

But exes? Oh yeah, sure I don't doubt, some exes might have some particular problems. Maybe they're running from some viscious old premie spouse. I guess anything's possible. I'm sure there could be several reasons why unique circumstances might necessitate anonymity. But to see people just kind of adopt it as some sort of norm, some sort of cultural norm, if you will, saddens me.

Yes, it does deprive our collective voice of some of its power. How could it not? There's a difference between reading a discussion between 'Way', 'G' and 'Anon', let's say, and 'John Smith', 'Dave Brown' and 'Suzy Creamcheese'. There's always an implicit aura of tentativeness or hesitation or something like that accompanying anonymity. Too bad it's so commonplace a practice, in my opinion at least.

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Date: Sat, Jul 22, 2000 at 19:30:29 (GMT)
From: Hal
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Anonymity- But really would it make any difference
Message:
if instead of Hal I called myself Stephen Higginbottom or Carl Frisburg. A pseudonym which is more realistic than say Powerman or Anon could give an impression of more credibility but it would still be easy to use any pseudonym.

I've considered giving up my anonymity, but I have to confess that a few very dear friends of mine to whom Maha is a major religion would be mortally insulted and hurt to know what I say here about M and it could be very inhibiting for me. Yeah I know I'm a coward but I'm not quite ready for total exposure just yet.

Hal

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Date: Sat, Jul 22, 2000 at 20:31:17 (GMT)
From: Selene
Email: None
To: Hal
Subject: Yes it would make a difference
Message:
For one it would give us more credibility. That is the real and most mportant reason.

And second and more personal to me;
It does make a diff when one posts anon vs. your true self.

I have been on the net long enough to see that in myself.
Not here I am almost always myself here but I have posted anonymously elsewhere and I see the difference.

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Date: Sat, Jul 22, 2000 at 19:54:40 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Hal
Subject: I think it would
Message:
Hal,

Who said there isn't an exit fee for leaving the cult? The longer one's been in, the more one's life is all bound up with these people in so many ways, on so many levels.

But, really, what are the options?

I know that one option that seems fraught with all sorts of difficulty is in hiding one's rejection of Maharaji. Where can that lead that's any good? It definitely can't help anyone lese and I doubt, as well, that it can do much for the 'hider'. Know what I mean? The test of those premie/ex relationships has to fall on the premies. After all this time in a cult, how can an ex compromise the truth any longer?

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Date: Sat, Jul 22, 2000 at 17:59:30 (GMT)
From: cq
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Can we not just say - some do, some don't?
Message:
There's enough of us here who choose NOT to be anonymous (unwisely, some might say).

I can understand why the majority prefer anonymity, Jim, and to attack them because of that preference is NOT the real issue here, is it?

Like the character who posted as 'Mike Tyson' not so long ago. He/she was a QC, apparently. As in legal heavyweight.

Their reasons for maintaining anonymity might just be valid, as might the premies' - just think what the Maha would like to do to them for misrepresenting him here!

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Date: Sat, Jul 22, 2000 at 18:20:42 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: cq
Subject: You jjust proved my point, cq!
Message:
Their reasons for maintaining anonymity might just be valid, as might the premies' - just think what the Maha would like to do to them for misrepresenting him here!

Don't you see? The premies' 'reason' is only valid if you accept the legitimacy of their not wanting their big, bad cult leader to know who they are and what they're saying about him without their permission. And, just like you say, ex's anonymity looks like it exists for the very same reason!

The fact is, very few, if any of us, have anything to fear from the Hamster. But we all started, at one point, as people who did indeed think we had much to fear from him (sorry, I mean 'Him'). Maybe a few PAMs who have special dirt on Maharaji might have some reasonable fear of retaliation if Maharaji feared exposure. I don't think that's what we're seeing here though. I think anonymity here is much more for the kinds of reasons you express.

And by the way, who gives a damn if such-and-such an ex is a QC ('Queen's Counsel', a government-honoured lawyer in the Commonwealth) or whatever? Is you point that he or she'd have too much to lose if anyone ever learned they were once caught in a cult? Sorry, I have very, very little respect for such concerns. That just looks too much like hypocrisy and cowardice to me. I mean, what's Mr. QC really got to fear? A little teasing in the Barrister's Lounge? Give me a break, please!

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Date: Sat, Jul 22, 2000 at 19:55:33 (GMT)
From: SB
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: There is no others Fakiranands?
Message:
Premies think they live their lives from 'their hearts' but what is that but a concept they have learned to accept. Fakiranand thought same way that day when he began to hit a reporter's head with a hammer because he threw a pie on maharaji's face. Because premies have all backwards they think they can have some liberties to 'defend their guru' and that's scary enough for some of us. I'm not afraid of many things, but from insane premies I'm, because how many of them like Fakiranand would do anything to hurt somebody, an enemy of maharaji?

What can I get from an insane premie like Fakiranand? Anything.

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Date: Sat, Jul 22, 2000 at 20:09:55 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: SB
Subject: And you prove my point too, SB
Message:
That's just it. Ex's anonymity suggests, to some anyway, fear of spectres like the hammer-wielding Fakiranand. So is that how anonymous posters feel? Is that what they're worried about? I think that sure gives a lot of power to the cult, thinking that way. I don't think it's necessary either. Don't forget, Fakiranand attacked a guy who literally assaulted Maharaji. Things were certainly more charged then too. Fanaticism was a blatant virtue in the cult then. Now it's more subtle.
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Date: Sat, Jul 22, 2000 at 20:40:23 (GMT)
From: Selene
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: it is usually just an excuse
Message:
For other reasons for anonymity. IMO
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Date: Sat, Jul 22, 2000 at 18:28:13 (GMT)
From: Selene
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: all right Jim.
Message:
geez. I am on a thank you Jim binge this morning.
You are right. Who has more to lose? I outed myself in a city of about 20 premies left active.
But ... they WERE active and visible.

I'm sick of this shit that is all I know.
It is a very huge portal, gateway for bullshit. But this opinion of mine is so right wing and unpopular, it will go nowhere..
I already know this.

and Katie I know you are reading this and I have to go so I am doing this in this post; You say YOU don't have complete access but Brian does. OK.

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Date: Sun, Jul 23, 2000 at 13:38:17 (GMT)
From: Katie
Email: None
To: Selene
Subject: to Selene :)
Message:
Hi Selene -
Brian has access, but doesn't do the IP thing anymore. I specifically requested NOT to have it, and I'm pretty sure you can understand why!

TC,
Katie
(who doesn't want to be a FA.)

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Date: Sun, Jul 23, 2000 at 19:13:19 (GMT)
From: Brat S
Email: None
To: Katie
Subject: Me. (nt)
Message:
LOL
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Date: Sun, Jul 23, 2000 at 21:14:21 (GMT)
From: Katie
Email: None
To: Brat S
Subject: Not you!
Message:
There gets to be a certain point where you just don't WANT to know who is who anymore (snicker!).
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Date: Mon, Jul 24, 2000 at 05:16:56 (GMT)
From: Selene
Email: None
To: Katie
Subject: is it better not to know? you may be right but..
Message:
There are times when I *do* want to know;
after say 60 personal emails in one month.
And seeing posts on forum that correspond.

I'd like to check for my own sanity.
Or another way of saying it,

I'd like that *they* could not pull that on me.
but then, the bullshit would resurface in another way.
I give you that.
I have a headache.

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Date: Sat, Jul 22, 2000 at 18:34:37 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Selene
Subject: I just want to know, can I go back to sleep now?
Message:
Okay, did I finally convince everyone to give up their disguises? Good. That's that.

But, really, can you imagine how cool it would be if all the exes did 'come out', so to speak? The premies would never follow suit and would thus look that much less credible and responsible in contrast.

All I can say is that every last ex who posts under his or her own name helps rebut the impression EV trades in that we're frightened somehow or ashramed of our words.

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Date: Sat, Jul 22, 2000 at 17:54:51 (GMT)
From: Selene
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: thanks Jim
Message:
You summed it up. I am fed up.
But I doubt this will change. Anonymity is way way easier technically.

I think it would be very easy to put an authentication system in place here.

But, I am talking out of my ass since I don't have the time to do it. (job)

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Date: Fri, Jul 21, 2000 at 12:59:41 (GMT)
From: Salam
Email: None
To: Mel Bourne
Subject: Mel, dedication is a good virtue, except you are
Message:
barking at the wroung tree. When I see premies tying themselves with ropes to Japaneese fishing boats to stop whaling then I will reconsider.

To say that EV is chariatable is an insult to intellegance. It is through a loop hole in legislation that organization like EV and others exist. Truly I am surprised, because I read all your post many times and belive that you are capable of critical thinking. I do agree that non-profit organizations need support , and I have supported some, but when it comes to organization that have the sole message of spreading the word of a single individual, I stand back.

But EV is diffrent you want to say, defenitly it is. You obviously cherish knowledge and belive it is the best thing since sliced toast. I can only wonder, if your posting here has made more determined to spread the word of maharaji or not? Only you can answer that.

Knowledge as an experience of being in touch with your true self(sol) is amazing indeed, knowledge being a trade mark of Satpal is different, or do you dought that knowledge has always been around since the human race came to being.

Offcourse, maharaji has put you in touch with it, as a gratitude you do all the things that you do. You just neglected one thing, you had knowledge before you saw him a long time ago, an if you have met any other guru he would have been able to show it to you, for that maybe even stumble across on of the many books that describe the techniques.

So can you please explain what is so special about EV and maharaji that I have missed?

Salam

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Date: Fri, Jul 21, 2000 at 05:19:01 (GMT)
From: la-ex
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: what I like about this site...
Message:
Dear all-I'm sitting here at my screen, it's late at night, and I'm thinking,why do I come here, to this site, a few times a week,and what do I get from it?And every once in a while I go to m's site,and what do I get from that?How do each of these sites affect me, and what do I get from them?
The main reason is that m and k were a big part of my life for so long.It's simple.No matter what you think about the subject,it was a big part of my life for a long time.
OK.
Now, what do I get from each site?What does each site give me?
M's site has pre-packaged, bland, starchy testimonials from pre-screened premies who have nothing to say but the party line.You know the entire script before you even finish it.'Everything's so beautiful,I'm so greatful,he's so wonderful'.The new fad seems to be to try to imitate m by being what I would call a K-Mart poet.
Not too good,not much quality,pretty cheap stuff in general.
It's bland,sappy,boring and predictable.Maybe if they repeat the party line to themselves enough, one day it will come true.It's pretty revolting and pathetic.Not very real,in my opinion.
Now,let's take EPO.
I thnk it's quite a hoot. A real piece of work.
I have one complaint, and that is that there is too much petty squabbling, but maybe that's the price we pay for freedom of speech and press.
But,to it's credit, it's got some great things going for it.
I love the humor. At times I have found myself howling with laughter, or literally falling off my chair in hysterics at some of the old stories, anecdotes,holy family encounters,quotes, festival stories etc.
Some of the headlines, like 'Bole Ji speaks out' and 'Bal Bagwan Ji rides again' or 'the kangaroo hop' are priceless.
The old quotes are fantastic-quite a reminder to all of us about: 1)the lies that m fed us and 2)how we bought so many of them uncritically 3)how m and present day premies can't look at them.
The history of dlm/ev is fascinating-I now understand so much that I never did before.Why things happened when they did.All about m's 'secret life'-the money,alcohol,drugs, affairs etc.
The real story is gradually emerging,helped greatly by the internet.
The personal stories are touching-no one tries to express anything except what they are actually feeling.No party line.
The 'watch dog' role that it plays, countering m's revisionist BS,is a great service.
The work on Jagdeo's escapades is helping to possibly bring a criminal to justice and expose m's hypocrisy and callousness.
The 'de-divining' of m provides a valuable service to everyone-exes,aspirants, and eventually to premies, and one day,to m himself, when he realizes that his critics provide more honest feedback to him than his devotees ever will.
Loved the 'saturday night around the campfire'chat a few weeks ago-it was great.
I'll close with a paraphrased quote from Ben Franklin.Something like this:
The average man flees from his critics.
The superior man embraces his critics, because he realizes that the critic alone sees and points out his faults.He uses this criticism to work on his faults and thus improve his character.

I don't think m will ever embrace us,but he sure has taken note of us.Maybe that's a good first step for him.
Anyway, keep up the good work!
This site provides an invaluable service and is having an effect!
I feel that I have many friends here...

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Date: Fri, Jul 21, 2000 at 06:45:53 (GMT)
From: SB
Email: None
To: la-ex
Subject: Very Nice. Thanks for your sincerity. (nt)
Message:
nt
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Date: Fri, Jul 21, 2000 at 01:23:33 (GMT)
From: Elaine
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: Interesting site I found...
Message:
I typed into 'ask.com' - 'How can I learn how to meditate?'

It came up with some fun stuff. One was The World Wide Meditation Center.
There is a chat room.

Thought some might be interested.

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Date: Fri, Jul 21, 2000 at 17:05:43 (GMT)
From: Elaine
Email: None
To: Anybody
Subject: Interesting site I found...
Message:
Well,
Just got here this morning and was amazed finding so many posts under the 'interesting site found' subject.

Then to READ them was amazing.
How a simple post about another site no one has ever mentioned
that could be fun or interesting could bring such a stir is truly amazing to me - for lack of a word - I'm still kind of shocked by your posts.

I was indeed surprised by Gerry's post that he thinks I'm manipulating - manipulating what?? But, then he did say he thought I was unconscious of it - well, at least thank you for that. I do think if anyone else had posted about the site - it wouldn't have gotten much response. I am guilty of being innocent on alot of the things said about me.

And as IF I knew someone would come to my 'rescue' - And, of course, things Katie said I don't 100% see as coming to Elaine's 'rescue' - but,rather, her speaking up for what seems to her to be an imbalance and thus, not right.

TY Katie for speaking your truth.I think you know I didn't NEED any 'rescuers', it's just nice to know there are level-headed people out there somewhere not filled with anger and clear.

And I don't attack SB by saying she is mean or antagonistic. That is not what I call an 'attack'. I would ask anyone to find an actual 'attack'. (And if you do, let's compare.)

I've called Jerry a jerk,PM a pig, and Gerry probably 3 things like neanderthal. All went against my basic nature and are something I would never do in my real life. Just couldn't take the crap anymore on those days. After awhile the attacks can get to you (me).And afterwords, I didn't feel good about it - as one might think I would. It felt crummy.

And was it Salem? - no, what that Dr. R wrote wasn't real it was just a funny story. Quite creative and well done I might add.

I did smile at Robert's post.

The manipulating stuff is truly a mystery to me -like what would be my agenda? Manipulate you all to do what?I could care less about you and M - take him to court if you'd like - I'd like to see what he'd do.

Is it because I like meditation? And I want all you guys to like it too or try it no matter what techs you use?? - yes, I would love that.
Well, I guess you're right, I'm just plain EVIL.

Elaine

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Date: Fri, Jul 21, 2000 at 19:45:55 (GMT)
From: cq
Email: None
To: Elaine
Subject: what would be your agenda?
Message:
My guess at what your (hidden?) agenda is, Elaine:

To turn as many people as possible on to meditation.

Trouble is, evangelism of any sort is probably a major turn-off for many ex-premies.

It's when the con-artist and historical revisionist par excellence (i.e. Mr Rawat) worms his way into the threads that you'll find the natives at their most revolting.

But then, why come here to try and turn us on to meditation, and/or to tell us how good it is for you?

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Date: Fri, Jul 21, 2000 at 17:46:15 (GMT)
From: Katie
Email: None
To: Elaine
Subject: Interesting site I found...
Message:
Hi Elaine -
I feel that you are entirely correct that if an ex-premie, or Stonor, or someone else who was not a premie (I single out Stonor because she is neither an ex or a premie), had posted that link, they wouldn't have been attacked. Sometimes even Mili posts stuff like that and just doesn't get a response, period.

You are also correct that I wasn't trying to 'rescue' you (I have gone out of the 'rescuing' business - at least I HOPE so!) - I was just saying what I felt, and, as I pointed out to SB, I have said it about other people too (i.e. Raina's gratuitous attacks on SB.) I don't agree with some of what you say, and I DO think you are somewhat evasive sometimes, but getting attacked all the time may contribute to that.

I do not think you are here for any covert reason - I think you said the reason that you first came here was to show that not all premies had bought the EV party line. It would probably be more helpful to communication if you would say why you are sticking around the forum - are you just interested in what people are saying, do you like having someone to talk to, whatever.

My primary motivation for getting involved with the site and forum was that I was very upset that a premie friend of mine had killed himself, and was then even more upset to read about what had happened in the ashrams, etc (Forum I archives). However, my secondary motivation was that I was very lonely and isolated at the time (I was living in a small town in the Midwest, and my then-husband was working at least 60 hours a week), and that I just really liked a lot of the ex-premies, and 'met' a lot of them through e-mail and even in person.

Take care,
Katie

P.S. In re meditation - I think it's great for people who benefit from it. And there are SO many different kinds of meditation. The 'knowledge' meditation never worked for me, but I have gotten a lot of benefit from visualization of various things (colors, light, etc.) This is something Maharaji has specifically NOT recommended in the past, too - do you remember 'if you meditate on a candle, you'll become a candle'? This scared me off ANY kind of meditation for a long time - obviously, after I became an ex-premie, I was adverse to doing the knowledge meditation because of the associations. But as it happens, I am a visually-oriented person, and visually directed meditation works best for me. I also really like the 'Artist's Way' exercise of writing three pages of whatever first thing every morning. This has produced far more positive changes in my life than the 'knowledge' meditation ever did.

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Date: Fri, Jul 21, 2000 at 17:38:05 (GMT)
From: gerry
Email: None
To: Elaine
Subject: Bingo, Elaine, manipulation
Message:
Well, I guess you're right, I'm just plain EVIL.

Here's a fairly good example of what I mean.

Now, nowhere did anyone say you were evil. Yet you toss this comment out in a blatant (to me anyway) attempt to elict-manipulate- sympathy from people.

OK, I'll give you the answer you crave: you're NOT evil Elaine, just __________(you fill in the blank.)

Here's another revealing thing about you, Elaine:

I could care less about you and M - take him to court if you'd like - I'd like to see what he'd do.

I REALLY believe you when you say you could care less about 'us.'

You know what, I care a lot about the people here and feel a wonderful kinship and comraderie with most EVERYONE here. I AM concerned about them, interested in their lives, how they are doing, what they are experiencing, in the real world.

Why is it that the most 'spiritual' people here, you, Keith and that ilk (Sandy excepted) seem to be the coldest and most uncaring folks around? Cold tears, indeed. I'm telling you, it's the fucking meditation and this constant I, I, I, me, me, me focus of becoming 'spiritually developed.' It's a killer, far worse than my 'fuck you's' could EVER be.

And I REALLY disbelieve you when you say you could care less about M. You're a liar, plain and simple, and that's about as civil as I can be towards you right now...

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Date: Fri, Jul 21, 2000 at 22:07:57 (GMT)
From: Elaine
Email: None
To: gerry
Subject: Misinterprations are you're main prob w/ me.
Message:
G-
We have always been on two diff wavelengths -
I usually never go back to correct a misconception you have of something I write bec it seems so endless.

When I said I'm just plain evil - illiciting SYMPATHY from anyone here is unbelievable to me that you could think that -see how diff we are -I was being sarcastic, blowing you're misconception of me out of proportion so you could see how ridiculous it is. Sympathy -whoa -didn't enter my mind -nor do I need it -seriously. I don't know how you're mind works even that you would actually think that.

'I could care less about you and M.' I mean 'TOGETHER' - ie,your relationship to him.
Why is it so hard to understand? Then instead of asking what I mean or ending you comments with 'if that's what you meant?'
You assume you're right always.

Some of your misinterpretations of what I've said have been WAY from left field.

As far as getting close or caring about anyone here - if I were to say, 'hey George so how did you're interview go?'
You know I would get shit from people galore.
Sincerity shown by me here has only been excepted by the person I'm speaking with - then someone butts in and is mean.Period. And you know that's true bec you are one that butts in alot about something you know nothing about.

Elaine

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Date: Fri, Jul 21, 2000 at 22:39:33 (GMT)
From: Elaine
Email: None
To: Elaine
Subject: And forgot....
Message:
In your mind Gerry - did you think that me writing about an interesting link I found was a manipulation?

Did you actually think that I thought by informing you guys here it would 'change' you or manipulate you all into meditating?

Go look at the sight and then I want you to seriously accuse me of trying to get ANYONE here to be influenced by that site. Would you do that for me if that is what you thought?

And yes, I do like meditation - but, I understand others here don't. I find that a shame - but, that's not the BAD thing you make it out to be.
Yes, I innocently want everyone to get out of it what I do. But, I don't recall preaching about it or even talking alot about it here.

When someone says stuff about not experiencing anything (in meditation - not about being a premie, mind you...) I go into a 'fix it' mode. I know that's not the greatest thing.
But, why is it such a big deal to anyone and mostly why do you have to be so intense about it and then do these personal mean-spirited attacks -with no regard of how it may affect another ( me).
Like I have some secret agenda of manipulation that is just so deeply wrong or sinister. I mean Jesus, why can't you just say --hey, stop being so co-dependent.Or don't preach to us. Or the old - we've heard it all before - that would probably shut me up.

But, these ATTACKS - don't even you think they are out of proportion?

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Date: Fri, Jul 21, 2000 at 23:12:29 (GMT)
From: gerry
Email: None
To: Elaine
Subject: Well you're a piss poor communicator then
Message:
Elaine,

Co-dependent isn't in my vocabulary. I really haven't been able to suss out the meaning of that one, even though I heard it a 'million' times. But I do understand manipulation.

Mean-spirited, that's sort of a fucked up and over used term too, isn't it. It doesn't really mean anything, except to you new agers, I guess.

Your agenda really isn't all that secretive. It's just run-of-the-mill manipulation, trying to get others to do as you do.

Oh and yeah, meditation IS a bad thing, btw. Do you think it's done you (or goober for that matter) any good?

I guess these 'attacks' as you call them would stop if you would quit behaving like you've got something to teach us, like we haven't heard it all before. It's a superior, manipulative attitude and you can't even see it.

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Date: Fri, Jul 21, 2000 at 23:09:38 (GMT)
From: SB
Email: None
To: Elaine
Subject: Have you tried amends?
Message:
Have you showed an interest in compromising with the people who post to you and follow whatever argument that got developed? NO. Always evasive and quick to blame others for your inconsistencies, your 'accomodating all so it fits', kind of actitud. We exes, ok, I am sick and tired of lies. Twenty five years of it. Sure, I don't come here to help myself and to do that I see what you say to others and can't avoid reacting.

SB is not Katie. I have called her a saint, sarcasticly, but I love her, she is a beautiful person, and she has her interpretations of Elaine and I don't see the same. So Katie is good and SB is a rude bitch. Maybe I'm wrong but by reading other's peoples post to Elaine it became obvious to me long a go that many share my opinions about her. Her ideas get attacked and she takes it personally, she'd shut people off, acting snotty, superior, and she don't understand how some people can get mean reading her posts? Have she made an attempt to clarify anything 'with her enemies' here? No. Elaine just like to use her sling shot and right away she hides it and accomodates what she said before to prove the ex she is arguing with is wrong. That is manipulation in my book.

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Date: Fri, Jul 21, 2000 at 18:09:51 (GMT)
From: Katie
Email: None
To: gerry
Subject: Manipulation - not sure, but some questions?
Message:
Hi Gerry -
My response:
The 'EVIL' comment was meant to be a joke, IMHO. Jim has called me the 'Evil Katie' enough times so *I* think it's funny, anyway.

About the comment I could care less about you and M - take him to court if you'd like - I'd like to see what he'd do - I want to ask Elaine. DO you care, at all, about any of the people who post on this site? Like Gerry, I really do care about the people who post here. At times, I find some of them irritating, infuriating, or just plain off the wall, but I do care about what happens to them, and I wouldn't be here if I did not.

Gerry also wrote
Why is it that the most 'spiritual' people here, you, Keith and that ilk (Sandy excepted) seem to be the coldest and most uncaring folks around? Cold tears, indeed. I'm telling you, it's the fucking meditation and this constant I, I, I, me, me, me focus of becoming 'spiritually developed.' It's a killer, far worse than my 'fuck you's' could EVER be.

Well, I wouldn't characterize Elaine as 'cold and uncaring' - I simply do not know her enough to tell. But I do agree that many so-called 'spritual' people seem to be uncaring. I think some of it is a reaction or way of dealing with all the pain in the world - people believe things like 'well, it is their karma that that awful thing happened to this person because she/he did something bad in their last life', or 'they created their own reality', or 'ends justify the means' (M and Elan Vital's slogan, IMHO), or that if THEY perfect their spiritual practice they are uplifting the whole world.

Gerry wrote:
And I REALLY disbelieve you when you say you could care less about M.

I'm not sure about this either. Elaine, what do you say?

TC - I gotta go!
Katie

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Date: Fri, Jul 21, 2000 at 22:16:48 (GMT)
From: Elaine
Email: None
To: Katie
Subject: Look at 'Misinterpetations' post above.
Message:
I think that may answer some.
It's Friday -I haven't much time either.

Elaine

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Date: Fri, Jul 21, 2000 at 13:11:50 (GMT)
From: Salam
Email: None
To: Elaine
Subject: Elaine, it is OK to look for somethig else
Message:
if you think what you have is not enough.

By the way I checked the link, could not see the chat room.

lol

Salam

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Date: Fri, Jul 21, 2000 at 16:23:46 (GMT)
From: gerry
Email: None
To: Salam
Subject: 'Seeking' is a lost cause, don't encourage it. (nt
Message:
asdf
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Date: Fri, Jul 21, 2000 at 06:42:28 (GMT)
From: SBe quick!
Email: None
To: Elaine
Subject: Don't come back here then: Go there!!
Message:
I tell you again: You are such a bitch! I can see your intentions clearly. To bug us has become your favorite hobby and what you don't understand yet is that you inspire just laugh to most of us. How can I really, really get angry at you? I see who you are.

Well said, bad attention is better than no attention. How lonely are you? Want to get honest? I know you don't...

I don't know who you are but for what you bring here you show you are a shitty person, a total ass, and yes, you do not deserve my kindness or respect. You haven't earned it. Sneaky brainwashed 'good person': Go away now and enjoy that chat room you found. We here speak about the truth and you are not interested in it, but in your dreamy life.

Sayonara!!

PS: Kiss my door.

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Date: Fri, Jul 21, 2000 at 03:25:17 (GMT)
From: gerry
Email: None
To: Elaine
Subject: Fuck you Elaine
Message:
Get the fuck outta here.
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Date: Fri, Jul 21, 2000 at 10:53:48 (GMT)
From: Katie
Email: None
To: SB and Gerry
Subject: Heckling Elaine?
Message:
OK, this is just how *I* feel, but I don't have a problem with Elaine posting here. I don't agree with much of what she says, but at least she appears to be thinking for herself and not just parroting the EV 'party line'. She doesn't spam the forum, doesn't post the same things over and over, and doesn't use a whole bunch of names.

I know that you, Gerry and SB, and others really dislike her posts, but frankly, I find the continual 'Fuck You, Elaine', and 'Shut Up, Elaine', and 'Go Away, Elaine', etc., etc., etc. posts in any thread where she posts to be even more annoying. Ditto with the constant analysis of Elaine's personality. (I honestly don't think you can tell what anyone is really like from their posts on here - you can tell what their POSTS are like, but that's about it. That applies to both of you, Gerry and SB, also.)

My feeling is that if premies are to be allowed to post here, and they ARE allowed to post here, then they should be allowed to speak without constant heckling. I am not talking about *responses* to their posts, disagreements, or whatever - I'm talking about constant personal attacks, 'Fuck You'-type posts, or whatever. I can understand why people want to write this kind of stuff about Maharaji, and I think THAT is helpful. However, Elaine is NOT Maharaji, and furthermore, I believe that she really IS questioning certain things about her involvement (although I may be wrong). Anyway, she is one of the few premies on here who I feel I can converse with, and whos posts I actually READ. (Furthermore I feel that she often READS my posts instead of just trying to rebut them - such automatic rebuttals being one of the reasons I don't talk to premies much.)

At this point, I feel like Elaine cannot post ANYTHING without getting flamed - for example, if she posted 'It was a nice day and I took my dog for a walk', she'd get personal attacks, fuck-yous, accusations of distracting the forum, etc. I tried to read a thread in which she was participating a couple of days ago, and it was so full of insults to her that I had to give up. I know this deters ME from posting on the forum, and I have to wonder how many other people it turns off (and I am not talking about premies here.)

Bottom line, in my opinion, is that as long as premies are allowed to post here (and if they post within guidelines), then constantly telling them to fuck off, shut up, and go away achieves nothing but making the forum look like a gladiator arena or a meeting in which people with unpopular views are shouted down without being listened to.

I know that you, sB and Gerry, probably won't like this post, but it's been on my mind for the last several days and I didn't feel like I could post here without saying this first.

Take care -
Katie

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Date: Sat, Jul 22, 2000 at 17:30:11 (GMT)
From: cq
Email: None
To: Katie
Subject: Well said, Katie. (nt)
Message:
sdgjdu
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Date: Fri, Jul 21, 2000 at 15:38:42 (GMT)
From: Dr Reich
Email: None
To: Katie
Subject: An analysis of Elaine
Message:
Elaine presented with complaints of being anorectic for 8 years. She weighed 100 lbs. at that time (her ideal weight is 125 lbs.; she had an inability to eat solid food or meat; she craved ice cream and feared a constriction in her throat that could choke her to death. The patient was also plagued by 'all this horrible mucous in there,' referring to her mouth and throat, that she had to spit out. In addition, E. suffered from anxiety attacks: claustrophobia, hyper-ventilation, diaphoresis, palpitations, and a fear of impending doom.

She dated the onset of her current symptoms to a deteriorating long-term relationship with a man who demanded and forced oral-genital sex. However, it later emerged that she had symptoms as early as ten years of age with crying spells, finicky eating, and a haughty attitude with playmates.

E. acknowledged that she was always trying to please others (acting the part of a 'perfect little girl'), yet secretly feeling 'mean inside,' and consequently, did not like herself.

Frequently fearful, lonely, and scared, there was significant mood disorder and neurovegetative signs of depression. There was significant drug and alcohol use, bingeing, vomiting, and laxative abuse.

She idealizes her father, describing him as cool, collected, understanding, and directive. Mother, on the other hand, is reported to be controlling, intrusive, moralistic, and 'perfect phony.' Mother and daughter are in constant disagreement and fight frequently over competitive issues which Elaine elicits and disdains. At least on the surface, all of E's whims and fancies have been catered to by her parents throughout her life.

Therapy consisted of twice weekly psychotherapy sessions for the past year. Her transference attitude was one of helplessness and continually trying to force the therapist to take control by telling her what to do, how to manage, and 'explain her symptoms to her.' This was her particular form of avoiding contact, or 'running.'

The therapist refused these machinations and reflected back to her whining, pathetic attitude. As the therapist consistently pointed out this defense, she became increasingly angry. She could not yell easily. The therapist had her scream and spit while making noises, and with vigorous work on her ocular segment, often elicited the expression of fear and then rage. There were several weeks of panicked phone calls, with relief of symptoms by phone contact and an occasional emergency session.

Subsequently, a defensive posture of superiority emerged and, later, more accessible feelings of disgust. As therapy progressed, she has become increasingly aware that everything in life has been shoved down her throat, and she is sick of it. What was originally experienced as diffuse oral and cervical muscular tension and rigidity became increasingly organized into a true globus in the throat. Throughout therapy, she has been encouraged to express rage through biting, tearing, and hitting, while staying in contact.

She continues to struggle with her need to be a 'perfect' and 'good girl. She has also developed a new symptom, a hostile sounding cough. As her throat loosens, the rage which is beneath is finding expression, pushing upward. She typically has a desire for genital union, but after having intercourse with her boyfriend, she becomes disgusted (spits it out), and has an exacerbation of her symptoms.

Diagnostically, this patient fits the criteria for conversion hysteria with an oral block. She has elements of both an oral repressed and an oral unsatisfied block, which cannot be differentiated at this time. She consciously fears that which she unconsciously desires.

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Date: Fri, Jul 21, 2000 at 18:11:44 (GMT)
From: JohnT
Email: None
To: Dr Reich
Subject: Yecccchhhhhhhhh! Blurghhhhhhhhh! Ugh! Retch!! (nt)
Message:
No Text
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Date: Fri, Jul 21, 2000 at 16:34:32 (GMT)
From: Salam
Email: None
To: Dr Reich
Subject: To the DOC
Message:
Has Elaine asked you to post this info on the forum, if so, I think you are only doing her damage in trying to stand for her, instead of she coming in and saying, hey dudes, I am mushed up in the head, take it easy with me. If what you say is true about her, I think this is defenitly the wroung place to be in for a person being anorectic and depressed, because as you can see most of the exes(sorry guys, aahhhooch, that hurts SB) are block heads, knowing what they are about and what they want. If Eline thinks that she is going to get support from us, she'd better think twice. I think, if you had any sentement, you take it on yourself to stop her from comming her and direct her instead to a real support group, instead of a cyber one.

But I may add, that once upon a time I needed all the help that I could get, if Eleine fell up to it, she can e-mail me on

Salam_au@iprimus.com.au

as long as she keep the mish mash away from me.

Salam

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Date: Fri, Jul 21, 2000 at 22:50:38 (GMT)
From: SB
Email: None
To: Salam
Subject: To the DOC
Message:
It was never my intention to talk about my emotional problemas as to bring sympathy toward me, but as to state what my involvement with the cult did to my head. Yes Salam, you are right: A part of me is blocked, i.e.confused. No need to appologize. There is no logic, information or education that can help me avoid what I'm going through; is part of the process of getting my head deprogrammed.

Elaine can get support here if she gets honest with herslf, just a little.

I'm rude and evil, fine, some can view me like that, but when premies come here to laugh at the pain of others and to be rude to people it's my pleasure to fight back. It brings me pleasure!! Is that too hard to understand for premies? They get what they are looking for. Elaine never finish her sentences but carefully puts words together in a way that incite anger, and that is the bottom line. IMO, she knows very well was she is doing, and she enjoys it!

She is sick? So do I. But that we are both sick doesn't mean that facts can be twisted around, and for the most, MOST, she does exactly that, just to bother others. She knows the reaction she is going to get, but continues her compulsive behavior to do that in the same way that I feel compelled to jump at her stupid posts. If she is really sick, she should have being honest and she wasn't. At the begining she displayed such a superiority complex, laughing at everybody, saying that she was an expert in grace, bla, bla, bla...Fine. She likes her beliefs but then, she needs to understand that words have power and she solely is responsible for what she choses to post, not others reacting to her posts.

I could come here and be really provocative, talking lies or saying something outrageous, if I chose to post that then, I can expect a bad reaction from others. Yes, people have different personalities. Some exes don't have problems with Elaine's posts, I understand that. Me? I can't stand dishonesty and so far, she is full of it. She has toned down a little, but she is still the Elaine who came to inform us how wrong we were for not having 'her experiences'.

;)

S

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Date: Sat, Jul 22, 2000 at 05:49:01 (GMT)
From: Selene
Email: None
To: SB
Subject: you are processing it
Message:
I know I told you I wouldn't be here for a few days;
But am doing some upgrades and installs tonight. (good excuse)
ok also, I have no social life. It's deathly hot outside and I'm sick of it.

Anyway this made me just *have* to admit my lurking and respond:
you said:
I'm rude and evil, fine, some can view me like that, but when premies come here to laugh at the pain of others and to be rude to people it's my pleasure to fight back. It brings me pleasure!!

I have done the similar things and been flamed on forum for it. By ex's as well as premies.
You are not not not not evil for being emotional and reacting to posts. It is what you are going through. You are doing what you can to process it. I know how much you try to help people. Others do too. And those that cannot or do not see it will see this side to you in time, or they won't. Just had to say that because I have been flamed for the same things.

Something that bothers me in the posts today is the assumption that time out of the cult does NOT matter. I disagree with this. It is like saying time withdrawing from a drug doesn't matter. Or healing from a physical or biochemical illness doesn't involve a timeline. OF course it does!
I mean, if it doesn't well then that means there is no progress right? I refuse to think that.

and I stand by my earlier statement that being a recent ex is a very emotional time.

When I am away for a decade or two I can post about how that is.
I cannot judge that or those ex's and their posts yet.

I would only hope by then his stupid facade has been blown to smithereens. I hate the lies on the EV site. all the bullshit.
It makes me hang around.

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Date: Sat, Jul 22, 2000 at 13:35:50 (GMT)
From: SB
Email: None
To: Selene
Subject: Thanks for your understanding
Message:
much! Of course time matters but above all, when talking about individual experiences we all come from similar roads, but they are not the same. My 'road' took me to places I would have never conciously want to go.

I know I'm not evil. maharaji is evil. He drives people's nuts, deliberatly. He confuses people to then tell them it's their fault...how convinient...

A big hug!

S

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Date: Sat, Jul 22, 2000 at 13:12:43 (GMT)
From: Katie
Email: None
To: Selene
Subject: Selene and SB
Message:
Hi Selene and SB -
I just want to clarify a few things that I said:

First, I don't think SB is a bad person for reacting in the way she does. Of course I don't! I know she's not mean, bad, a bitch, whatever! And SB, I do not mind the swearing - I would bet that I swear a lot more than you do in real life (I have to watch my language constantly!)

But I felt a certain way about the reaction to Elaine's posts (it wasn't just you, SB), and it was something *I* had to say - maybe in the same way you had to say what you did to Elaine. I hope you can understand that. I don't expect you to change - I was just expressing MY feelings. I am not trying to say that the way I feel is RIGHT, and the way you feel is WRONG.

Also, Selene, I think that time out of the cult DOES matter. You are exactly right about how disorienting it is, how much emotion comes to the surface, and so forth. The thing I disagree with is that someone like me cannot understand or remember what it feels like to be a recent ex. I remember it VERY well, and because I write back and forth to several recent exes, and live with one, I keep getting reminded. (In fact, I have tried to explain how difficult this process is to Elaine in several posts.) What I was trying to say is that not everyone reacts in the same way to exiting.

And SB, that is what I was trying to say in my post below - NOT that you are like all the other recent exes, but that everyone is different. Some people get very angry, some people get very sad, some people get depressed and isolate themselves, some people become very fearful, some people act out, some people withdraw, and so on and so forth. IMHO, this is all quite understandable behavior because you have lost something that has been a fundamental part of your life for a long time. And Selene is right that recent exes shouldn't underestimate how hard it can be sometimes.

Take care, both of you -
Love,
Katie

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Date: Sat, Jul 22, 2000 at 16:52:46 (GMT)
From: Selene
Email: None
To: Katie
Subject: hi Katie yes you see my side I know that
Message:
What can I say?
As I said, I'll know what that 15 or so years exiting is like when I am gone from this shit for 15 years. Til then I am just me. RUDE as SB anyday :)

You know, we will all be so old by then we will be mellowed out. Sorry. It's just the truth. oh well.

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Date: Sat, Jul 22, 2000 at 13:20:39 (GMT)
From: Katie
Email: None
To: SB
Subject: P.S. to SB (ot)
Message:
At least you and Gerry are getting along a lot better! Glad to see that. He seems to like and respect you a lot.
Love to you -
Katie
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Date: Sat, Jul 22, 2000 at 13:46:32 (GMT)
From: SB
Email: None
To: Katie
Subject: P.S. to SB (ot)
Message:
You are never going to forget being involved with maharaji, even if you were with him for few years. Time doesn't matter: mental abuse doesn't meassure that. That is what I tried to explain: Recent exes are like Selene said: A pressure pot whose lid have being removed.

No excuses. I chose to be rude at times for reason explained in other posts. Bad girl... :0

Have a nice weekend!

S

So? Gerry, gerry and gErRy are the same?

I'm slow sometimes,; too many people and stories too to remember all.

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Date: Sat, Jul 22, 2000 at 16:40:03 (GMT)
From: Selene
Email: None
To: SB
Subject: Gerry, gerry and gErRy are the same?
Message:
yes.
And I don't get it.
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Date: Sat, Jul 22, 2000 at 20:02:47 (GMT)
From: SB
Email: None
To: Selene
Subject: LOL. Split personalities. (nt)
Message:
:0
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Date: Sat, Jul 22, 2000 at 22:52:01 (GMT)
From: Selene
Email: None
To: SB
Subject: Is it really Lots Of Laughs?
Message:
I suppose. To me, it is getting irritating.
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Date: Fri, Jul 21, 2000 at 23:21:47 (GMT)
From: gerry
Email: None
To: SB
Subject: Exactly, my feelings also, well said, SB (nt)
Message:
right on
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Date: Sat, Jul 22, 2000 at 00:13:39 (GMT)
From: SB
Email: None
To: gerry
Subject: Thanks (nt)
Message:
nt
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Date: Fri, Jul 21, 2000 at 14:43:32 (GMT)
From: SB
Email: None
To: Katie
Subject: Heckling Elaine?
Message:
I understand your posts but in my opinion, Elaine is not honest. I have the right to dislike her. I see what I see. She has ATTACKED ME before. She named me in so many of her posts, always saying how bad I am, because she can stand me being blunt pointing her bs. You have being gone from the cult long a go; I just left months a go and I think that makes a difference how I take her 'buzzigng'. You never comment on Elaine's barbarities because probably you don't read all her posts or becasue it doesn't bother you: It does to me.

Fine Katie. You don't have to be me. I don't aprove all you say. I see you have good intentions but what I think about Elaine is what I think about her. Her insults are not Fuck you, go away, but they are even worse than that!! She enjoys her 'role' here of bugging, well, she needs to be prepared to be bugged and reminded of what she is doing here. You don't have to understand it. If a rule against swering needs to be implemented, the FA should make an announcement, because I have seen many here using the same words. This is who I'm today. My real-self have being gone for too long. Twenty five years in a cult can do that to you, can make you mad and angry, can make you say things that you wouldn't have said if it wasn't that you found a disgusting guru. SB have being gone for too long! Do you know where she is at? I'm trying to find her... I almost killed her....three times. No, I don't like Elaine's suckitude! IMO, she asks for it posting senselesly, she provoques my emotions. Be glad to be strong and smart. This is me today.
S

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Date: Fri, Jul 21, 2000 at 15:49:57 (GMT)
From: Katie
Email: None
To: SB
Subject: To SB
Message:
Hi SB -
Gerry's been out of the cult longer than me, and he seems to feel similarly, so I don't think length of time out of the cult necessarily means you are going to feel a certain way about someone else's posts. So please don't keep telling me I don't understand because I am not a recent ex - some other recent exes on here don't seem to feel the way you do either. I think it is more of a personality conflict between you and Elaine (or Gerry and Elaine) than you being a recent ex.

I do not like it when people follow someone else around the forum insulting them and harassing them. I didn't like it when Raina did it to you, and I said something about it then, several times. Whether a premie or an ex does it, I think it's 'spamming', and I don't think it belongs on the forum. It is alienating to other people (other ex-premies, too) who have to read it (not to mention the person it's addressed to.)

By now, everyone KNOWS that you and Gerry cannot stand Elaine. So what is the point of saying it over and over again? Maybe you guys could just have a 'flame Elaine' thread once or twice a week to make sure your point is getting across. I gather from your post that you feel she is acting a role for some reason and is not posting honestly. I am not convinced of that at all - the same way I wasn't convinced that you were a 'premie plant' when you first started posting!

I am sorry, SB, but I don't like to see the forum used to harass individual people - whether or not they are premies. Dialogue or argument, yes, but harassment, no.

Take care -
Katie

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Date: Fri, Jul 21, 2000 at 14:23:45 (GMT)
From: gerry
Email: None
To: Katie
Subject: Heckling Elaine?
Message:
Katie I don't have ANY problem with your post. It was sincere and heartfelt, completely the opposite of anything Elaine posts for the most part. It wouldn't be YOU if you didn't express this.

You're right--Elaine will get flamed for even saying have a nice day. Maybe you could converse with her via email.

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Date: Fri, Jul 21, 2000 at 13:20:47 (GMT)
From: Shintaro
Email: None
To: Katie
Subject: Heckling Elaine?
Message:
Katie says=

Bottom line, in my opinion, is that as long as premies are allowed to post here (and if they post within guidelines), then constantly telling them to fuck off, shut up, and go away achieves nothing but making the forum look like a gladiator arena or a meeting in which people with unpopular views are shouted down without being listened to.

I know that you, sB and Gerry, probably won't like this post, but it's been on my mind for the last several days and I didn't feel like I could post here without saying this first.

Shintaro says= You are absolutely right. This forum is 'like a gladiator arena or a meeting in which people with unpopular views are shouted down without being listened to'.
Take this simple statement- 'I enjoy K and respect M. I do not believe he has intentionally forced or deceived anyone to take K'.
Will anyone on this forum accept that I am an intelligent, informed adult who is having a beautiful experience caused by Knowledge?

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Date: Sat, Jul 22, 2000 at 17:35:31 (GMT)
From: cq
Email: None
To: Shintaro
Subject: Obviously not THAT well informed, Shintaro
Message:
especially if you 'do not believe he has intentionally forced or deceived anyone to take K'.

But then, why would you disbelieve him?

PS, if you were in his shoes, would you still try and propagate the 'knowledge'.

If so, why?

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Date: Fri, Jul 21, 2000 at 16:03:33 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Shintaro
Subject: I can answer that
Message:
Take this simple statement- 'I enjoy K and respect M. I do not believe he has intentionally forced or deceived anyone to take K'.
Will anyone on this forum accept that I am an intelligent, informed adult who is having a beautiful experience caused by Knowledge?

No. You've got to be kidding.

Shintaro says= You are absolutely right. This forum is 'like a gladiator arena or a meeting in which people with unpopular views are shouted down without being listened to'.

That's ridiculous. You can't 'shout down' the written word. No matter how dumb a premie's post, it hangs here in cyberspace just like the rest.

What's your education level, by the way?

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Date: Fri, Jul 21, 2000 at 16:31:26 (GMT)
From: Katie
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: 'Shouting down' was my analogy
Message:
Hi Jim -
I wrote the 'shout down' part (he was quoting me), and it was an ANALOGY. I had to go to a county Board of Supervisors meeting once where my boss was trying to explain about a project we were doing in that county, and he ended up walking off the stage because the two hundred or so people in the audience started screaming at him before he even starting talking because they already THOUGHT they knew what he was going to say. That is what I meant.

My point was this: if premies are allowed to post here, then said premies shouldn't be harrassed every time they open their mouths. Again, I want to make it clear that I am not talking about arguments, discussions, or dialogue - I'm talking about spamming harassment with little to no content. Premies would NOT get away with that kind of behavior on here - they'd be blocked. I realize that ex-premies have a lot more leeway, but I am sick of reading threads in which most of the posts say little more than 'Fuck you', 'Go away', or 'Shut up', and I would guess that other people who either read or post on here might be a bit tired of them too.

I'm in favor of allowing premies to post here, but their posts don't seem to bother me as much as they bother SB, for example. I do think people start questioning things about M and EV when they post on the forum, and I don't think that screaming obscenities at them or telling them to shut up or go away helps this process.

TC -
Katie

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Date: Sat, Jul 22, 2000 at 00:10:15 (GMT)
From: SB
Email: None
To: Katie
Subject: The content as with beauty is to be 'judged'
Message:
by the eyes of the beholder.


- I'm talking about spamming harassment with little to no content.

To you it has no content. Is your opinion, and that doesn't mean that it doesn't mean 'something' to others.

Elaine spams well. Don't you think? I reacted to her posts from my observations, never thinking on yours. I'm many things but not a people's pleaser person. I shouldn't have told her to fuck off. I did tried before to talk with her, right? No. Reasoning was to hard for her. It was better for her to get her sling shot. Fine. I'm a rude person.

She doesn't want to talked honestly and her posts speak for themeselves. Glad to see that your skin is thicker than mine. I'm just here trying to be honest with myself, most of all. I'm a good reader, most of the time. The times that have misinterpreted some posts my perfect excuse is that english is my second language and at times my head goes quite fast, but really Katie? Who are you kidding? You have defended Elaine many times before. You'd have, with your well known good intentions, interpreted Elaine's posts to be not so bad, well, can you once and for all agree that she is provocative most of the time and that others may perceive her differently and interpret her posts in a total different way than you and react different? They do inspire me to react bad, more, because she talks so good of me, a little often.

I do think people start questioning things about M and EV when they post on the forum, and I don't think that screaming obscenities at them or telling them to shut up or go away helps this process.

Maybe it does, maybe. I think it does. Should it be necesary to post insults? I guess not, but that is how much some get bothered by her posts. We need a moderator? New rules for this forum? I will respect what the mayority wants.

No bad words here ever again? Lets do it. Who is going to inform the FA of the need for that? But then, the same coming from Elaine for months can be also too much for some of us and a change is needed for this type of premie like her, who love to create controversy but cries wolf when she gets the results she expected when she pressed submit..

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Date: Fri, Jul 21, 2000 at 16:45:09 (GMT)
From: gerry
Email: None
To: Katie
Subject: Katie you're missing a HUGE point here
Message:
My point was this: if premies are allowed to post here, then said premies shouldn't be harrassed every time they open their mouths. Again, I want to make it clear that I am not talking about arguments, discussions, or dialogue - I'm talking about spamming harassment with little to no content. Premies would NOT get away with that kind of behavior on here - they'd be blocked. I realize that ex-premies have a lot more leeway, but I am sick of reading threads in which most of the posts say little more than 'Fuck you', 'Go away', or 'Shut up', and I would guess that other people who either read or post on here might be a bit tired of them too.

Premies are initially responded to the manner to which you obviously prefer--argumentation, discussion, attempts at persuation and pointing out obvious fallacious thinking.

However, a lot of them are persistent, obstinant, obnoxious, and in complete disregard of the fact that this is an *EX* premie forum and their repeated preaching exhortations, cult apologising and the like eventually bring down the wrath of even the most mellow ex here. SHP is a good example. So is Elaine, albeit she is much more subtle and sneaky about it. But basically the tactics are the same.

SHP and Elaine ARE a lot alike. A lot of people here can't stand Sandy's rambling. People reacted to Keith in a similiar manner. All three are recalcitrant and therefore a huge waste of time. They've all had their say and it's time for them to move on, get a life and get over it (us.)

The same dynamics are going on with Elaine. And you, true to form, are reacting pretty much the same too, so give me a break and don't tell me how to react to premies, please. You do it your way and I'll do it mine.

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Date: Fri, Jul 21, 2000 at 16:53:43 (GMT)
From: Katie
Email: None
To: gerry
Subject: Katie you're missing a HUGE point here
Message:
Hi Gerry -
Lengthening the thread further here...

SHP and Keith both came back after relatively long hiatuses from the forum, and posted almost EXACTLY the same kind of posts that they posted before. I do like Sandy, but I don't read most of his posts because he just says the same thing over and over - and has for at least a year, maybe more. Keith - maybe two years? I can't remember. (BTW, I stopped defending both of them pretty early on, after it became clear that we were not really communicating.)

Elaine hasn't been on here that long. She's also posted some things that were different than what she said in the beginning. I say give her a chance. If she ends up being like SHP or Keith (or Mili or you name it), then that's different.

Anyway, like I said below, I don't expect either you or SB to change. Just had to give my two cents worth.

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Date: Fri, Jul 21, 2000 at 16:59:15 (GMT)
From: gerry
Email: None
To: Katie
Subject: Ok, maybe you and JohnT are right.
Message:
I'm willing to entertain the idea, anyway. I did try being nice to her and it only seemed to encourage her. But I can try again, knowing she's reading this now.

And shame on you Katie--you brought out that despicable Doctor Reich...

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Date: Fri, Jul 21, 2000 at 17:09:03 (GMT)
From: Katie
Email: None
To: gerry
Subject: Well, you don't have to be 'nice'...
Message:
...just civil - there is a difference. Even I, Gerry, am FAR less 'nice' than I was when I started posting here (my old posts make me sick, if you wanna know the truth).

Hey, I thought Dr. Reich only practiced on the new moon?

TC -
Katie

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Date: Sat, Jul 22, 2000 at 01:22:35 (GMT)
From: SB
Email: None
To: Katie
Subject: And Elaine is civil? Please!!
Message:
How civil is she? She has a poingnant tongue that she knows how to manipulate well. Me? Gosh, I come from a place where all is arguable, no kidding. It comes from repressed anger. It shows in many ways. I curse and act rude, Elain uses the sneaky approach. Which one is worse, if you care to compare? I say f... you openly. It means something, doesn't it? People use it sometimes to express ' I'm sick of you', and is inevitable, again, for some of us. But to call it uncivil, these days...Am I justifyng that and why I cursed? No, understanding what I think about what you said because it includes me. I wanted to say that, and I have sinned. If it bothers you be glad to never go to my lands were cursing is too common. (Even maharaji curses I heard. LOL.) I'm a stupid person for calling some one this or that, or saying f...you...ok, but we know that there are other words that carry hate y more, and they cannot be considered a direct insult but unless the intention shines through the words and is simply disgusting as it's tome. Yeah I heard, don't read her posts, but gosh, some comments to her from others get my curiosity and also because sometimes is so funny, and others her allussions to meanness make me read, just to see where she is at that day, and...human here. A little extreme to say uncivil, as if using the word uncivilized to describe our insults/expressions.

I wouldn't go as far to say that you are completly defending her, I understood your posts, nevertheless, you sound as if somehow you are justifyg her dishonesty, which created many different reactions, and she needs a chance to continue doing the same.Or maybe what you say is your writting tactic to make her think...to help her. Some of her posts are/were funny, others infuriated/s me so much because I could hear her laugh by reading her words...not nicely. That is not being civil. Some of her posts I read twice, because I wanted to believe that I only missunderstood something, but her words are there in the archives. My point? The words games she sometimes play are not civil, is not the norm if one wants to mantain open communication for many cultures.

Words are streched miles and we become biased? It happens all the time, I see it everyday, people are biased toward what/or whom they cannot understand. But haven't many of us asked often for her honesty and got insulted by her comments? It's is not civil to spit on someone's face lies as she have done either. Is true, I don't think that Elaine is a person who right now I will like to meet, is true, I don't like her attitud at all. I shouldn't swear. I should be nice no matter what. I confess. My mother taught me well, I just...Poor Elaine? No.

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Date: Fri, Jul 21, 2000 at 14:06:38 (GMT)
From: Salam
Email: None
To: Shintaro
Subject: Shintaro, obviously knowledge is not working for
Message:
you, because you are still deluded in beliving that maharaji has something to do with it. Better pour some acid in your head, wll give you a real kick.

Salam

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Date: Fri, Jul 21, 2000 at 13:46:28 (GMT)
From: Katie
Email: None
To: Shintaro
Subject: Heckling Elaine?
Message:
Hi Shintaro -
You wrote:

Take this simple statement- 'I enjoy K and respect M. I do not believe he has intentionally forced or deceived anyone to take K'.

Will anyone on this forum accept that I am an intelligent, informed adult who is having a beautiful experience caused by Knowledge?

I can't get into your head, so I accept that you enjoy K, and are having a beautiful experience practising it. I wouldn't argue with the fact that you are intelligent - I don't know enough about you to know whether you are or not. Also, whether you respect M or not is your own business - I definitely do NOT respect him.

The part of your statement that I take issue with is I do not believe he [M] has intentionally ...deceived anyone to take K' (I'll allow the 'forced' part.) *I* believe that you are NOT informed if you believe this statement. I definitely feel that I was deceived about Knowledge - and part of this deception came directly from Maharaji himself. I also believe this deception was intentional, particularly the part about how the sucessful practice of the knowledge meditation is dependent on following Maharaji. This was DEFINITELY stated by Maharaji, over and over, ad infinitum.

In other words, please speak for yourself - I do not think that you can speak for 'anyone' who has ever received K.

Sincerely,
Katie

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Date: Fri, Jul 21, 2000 at 13:33:39 (GMT)
From: JohnT
Email: None
To: Shintaro
Subject: Respecting M?
Message:
No Shintaro,

I cannot accept 'I ... respect M. I do not believe he has intentionally ... deceived anyone to take K'.'

Nor can I accept you are '... an intelligent, informed adult...'

The experience you induce by your head wanking has no bearing whatsoever on Mr Rawat's character.

Got that, you deluded fool?

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Date: Fri, Jul 21, 2000 at 11:47:00 (GMT)
From: JohnT
Email: None
To: Katie
Subject: Nice one, Katie. Respect.
Message:
I read Gerry and SB and find them often insightful, funny or outrageous. Sometimes all three!

Not this time though, guys, I'm sorry to say.

Heck, Elaine isn't even a 'proper' premie - she thinks other techniques (of yoga or meditation) may be useful. In the context of braindead frozenhearts like the unlamented 'shroom that is positively subversive!

'There's only one K and only one person who can reveal it to you.' No way does Elaine hold to that view.

Mind you, I haven't checked out the link yet! Maybe I'll be back later rueing these words!

Respect.

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Date: Fri, Jul 21, 2000 at 14:55:52 (GMT)
From: gerry
Email: None
To: JohnT
Subject: Yes, thanks JohnT and here's the deal...
Message:
Elaines's a dummie but she's not stupid. She is calculating. She knows *exactly* what she's doing by postings this pablum. She knows her smiley face post about meditation and chatrooms is BOUND to arouse animosity here. That's why she does it.

It goes like this, 'innocent and sweet' Elaine posts some 'innoculous fluff' in the guise of 'helping,' she gets flamed (as she expects) and then Katie comes to the rescue (as she also expects.) It's manipulation, plain and simple.

Then Elaine gets a whole thread about HER and she gets to feel unjustly wounded, righteously rescued and then smugly satisfied. It's a game to her. And what the fuck, I'll play along just so I can write a post like *this* one.

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Date: Fri, Jul 21, 2000 at 16:04:07 (GMT)
From: Katie
Email: None
To: gerry
Subject: Gerry, what's the point?
Message:
If Elaine is doing what you say, she's fully capable of making her own self look bad without 'help' from you and SB. Believe it or not, I and others on here am fully capable of recognizing manipulation when I see it (like I tell people at work, I'm not as stupid as I look!). I just don't always call people on it, especially if I feel that they are also trying to communicate truthfully as well.

I feel that the constant flaming of her posts just leads to MORE distraction from the issue at hand. Not only that, but the no-content but flaming posts are so frequent that I feel that they constitute spamming. This is not an 'anti-Elaine', or even an 'anti-premie' forum. And personally, I have never read anything that Elaine has written that is even comes within a light-year of being as manipulative, calculating, game-playing and self-serving as the EV FAQ's.

Like I said to SB - everyone on here has got to be fully aware of what she and you think of Elaine. So my question - what's the point of continuing to harass her?

TC -
Katie

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Date: Sat, Jul 22, 2000 at 01:38:58 (GMT)
From: SB
Email: None
To: Katie
Subject: To play her game at times, responding
Message:
to the indirects f...yous she sends.

answer to this:

what's the point of continuing to harass her?

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Date: Fri, Jul 21, 2000 at 16:20:43 (GMT)
From: gErRy
Email: None
To: Katie
Subject: Gerry, what's the point?
Message:
Scared ya, didn't I?

I wish Elaine would disappear. Go bye bye. Vamoose. Scram. Get lost. Beat it. Hit the road. That's the point.

Perhaps most, but maybe not everyone is as capable as you in detecting subtle manipulation. I don't think Elaine herself is all that conscious of her game. That's why I feel I have to point it out continually and will do so in the future.

You call it harrassment; I say Elaine is the true harrasser.

Of course, no one here holds a candle to EV's manipulation, but does that mean we have to take it in its lesser form from Elaine?

And you're wrong about the recent ex thing with Elaine. I can REALLY understand why SB objects so strenously to Elaine as being part and parcel of her recent exit from the cult.

I have my own reasons for disliking Elaine's dishonest and sneaky manipulation.

You are the one who is extending this thread by your comments. My message was simple, short and clear.

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Date: Fri, Jul 21, 2000 at 16:48:38 (GMT)
From: Katie
Email: None
To: gErRy
Subject: Gerry, what's the point?
Message:
Hey, I don't have a problem with extending this thread. I have already told the FA's that they can delete any of my posts that they want to :).

You wrote:
Perhaps most, but maybe not everyone is as capable as you in detecting subtle manipulation. I don't think Elaine herself is all that conscious of her game. That's why I feel I have to point it out continually and will do so in the future.

Well, most people don't appreciate this, but a lot of people who have been in therapy do. If you really feel that Elaine is NOT that conscious of what you feel she is doing, I feel that you would be much more effective if you were more sensitive in pointing it out. I do not think most people enjoy being manipulators - I say this having had to 'unlearn' manipulative skills learned from my mom (skills I did NOT need, but that are taught to a whole lotta women).

Of course, no one here holds a candle to EV's manipulation, but does that mean we have to take it in its lesser form from Elaine?

Elaine has revealed things about herself on this forum that make me think of her as a human being. EV has not done that at all, especially in their individual posts on the EV site. Like Susan said, they all seem to 'cry cold tears' (or crocodile tears).

And you're wrong about the recent ex thing with Elaine. I can REALLY understand why SB objects so strenously to Elaine as being part and parcel of her recent exit from the cult.

What I was trying to say to SB is that length of exit from the cult does NOT mean a person is going to react a certain way to premie posts. SB has told me several times that I do not understand because I have been out of the cult so long (and I guess that would apply to you too). I do not believe this is true, especially given the fact that I have corresponded with a lot of recent exes over the past few years.

SB read the forum when she was a premie - she can tell you about what she thought, and what SHE wanted to post back then (I am not certain if she actually did post). I feel that her 'exit' time would have been greatly lengthened if she had posted some of her doubts, etc. and then been personally flamed on here. Knowing SB, I know it would have made her angry - and maybe angry enough to stop reading the site and the forum!

Anyway, Gerry, I don't expect you or SB to stop or anything because of what I say. I just had to express my opinion, as always :).

TC,
Katie

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Date: Sat, Jul 22, 2000 at 02:23:51 (GMT)
From: SB
Email: None
To: Katie
Subject: Thse two paragraphs...
Message:
What I was trying to say to SB is that length of exit from the cult does NOT mean a person is going to react a certain way to premie posts. SB has told me several times that I do not understand because I have been out of the cult so long (and I guess that would apply to you too). I do not believe this is true, especially given the fact that I have corresponded with a lot of recent exes over the past few years.

Generalization, maybe? I'm JUST like the rest, It must be like that, if YOU think that. hmmm...

SB read the forum when she was a premie - she can tell you about what she thought, and what SHE wanted to post back then (I am not certain if she actually did post). I feel that her 'exit' time would have been greatly lengthened if she had posted some of her doubts, etc. and then been personally flamed on here. Knowing SB, I know it would have made her angry - and maybe angry enough to stop reading the site and the forum!

BTW, NEVER posted as a premie. If my ip appears somewhere it was my ex-husband using my pc which he did use few times when I wasn't at home, not me. I began posting when I decided I was not a premie anymore. What is the point arguing what you don't know? I had doubts and if nothing I read around here changed my head sooner it was because I was in a denial state. Most premies posting here show their intentions clearly: To bug/insult.
Knowing SB, I know it would have made her angry - and maybe angry enough to stop reading the site and the forum!

It depends why people come here. When some people attacked me when I began posting, even that already was a ex-premie, I was a 'basket case' but I wanted logic to. I reached for support openly, I was honest,and I was very, very rude to one of the gerrys and it was intense, I should have laughed then too...LOL.

If you want to understand and know about maharaji you don't leave because others bother you. I say this even that I have said the opposite, because what you read here Elan Vital/m won't tell you.. I wasn't going to stop reading, only posting, maybe. Maybe you are right. I know me. I wouldn't have dared to post what I thought. The lordy is in disguise to filter the good from the bad; I was brainwashed by Lardy and you guys were telling me so...without me saying anything. I simply thought, analized. The posibility that you were right was accompanied by my own doubts and I made up my mind. BTW. I literally don't think she should go, but sure her nerves enerves me!

Yes, some premies IMO are just a pest!

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Date: Fri, Jul 21, 2000 at 18:55:01 (GMT)
From: gerry
Email: None
To: Katie
Subject: SB was smart, gutsy and perceptive...
Message:
I say this because she chose to read, listen, learn and come to her own conclusions before posting. Alas, I feel Elaine is a lost cause, and here only to do what? Give us helpful hints from Heloise about neat chat sites promoting meditation?
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Date: Fri, Jul 21, 2000 at 15:53:24 (GMT)
From: JohnT
Email: None
To: gerry
Subject: Not a dummy. But strangely unaware.
Message:
Thanks gerry,

I too have felt that Elaine plays upon the shifting interference patterns in the interplay between dishonesty and unawareness. It is not too much to expect that a person respect the raw sensitivities of SB, for example.

So I can see that a person could feel enraged by Elaine's clumsiness in trying to support meditation practice here. She has no need, I'm sure. I have read many ex-premies saying here that they still meditate - some with old techniques, others with methods that work for them.

It does seem to me to be reasonable that Elaine should look and see how her words encourage and comfort the likes of shintaro and keith. This forum is not a vacuum - it has a heavily charged atmosphere - and Elaine's skipping through like a little Ms Innocent while giving comfort to friends of falsity is ... hmmm ... disturbing.

But may I suggest that Salam's light touch may be a more effective counter?

Respect.

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Date: Fri, Jul 21, 2000 at 16:06:52 (GMT)
From: Katie
Email: None
To: JohnT
Subject: One point, JohnT
Message:
Hi JohnT -
Believe it or not, Keith is an EX-premie (or he calls himself one, anyway).

Respect -
Katie

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Date: Fri, Jul 21, 2000 at 19:43:21 (GMT)
From: JohnT
Email: None
To: Katie
Subject: Indeed so ...
Message:
... funny old world innit?

Just goes to show there's more than one way to be daft as a bat.

The thing about the person you mentioned, he did strike me as a somewhat nasty character. Not at first - I was actually pretty taken aback by the chorus of disapproval he evoked. Shocked, even, by the picturesque greeting from cq!

But I soon felt the reasons for the dismay and aversion. And how neatly cq had used a picture worth a thousand words.

Elaine, on the other hand, does not seem to get nasty with people on a personal level. Nor did she respond to yer man's attempted overtures. He got Mr Bubblehead instead.

ha!

Respect to (most) ex-premies!

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Date: Fri, Jul 21, 2000 at 13:51:28 (GMT)
From: Katie
Email: None
To: JohnT
Subject: Thank you, JohnT
Message:
I have to admit that I only read about two of Shroom's posts and couldn't read any more because it appeared to be the 'same old, same old'. I am glad there are people who CAN read and respond to these posts, but I can't deal with it anymore. I didn't check out Elaine's link either, mostly cause I'm just not interested. But her attitude about M is definitely different than 'party line' type premies - also, she appears to be thinking out loud about her changing thoughts and feelings on the subject on the forum, which isn't usually what premies do on here.

Respect to you too -
Katie

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Date: Sat, Jul 22, 2000 at 02:26:21 (GMT)
From: SB
Email: None
To: Katie
Subject: Sometimes she tells you what you want to hear (nt)
Message:
manipulation.
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Date: Fri, Jul 21, 2000 at 04:58:52 (GMT)
From: Tom
Email: None
To: gerry
Subject: Fuck you Gerry
Message:
Pussy will get you. My mother said always be kind and gentle to a young ladies cat......Oh my god ...it has teeth!!!!
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Date: Fri, Jul 21, 2000 at 12:10:46 (GMT)
From: RobertB
Email: bobb@wintelsolutions.com
To: anyone
Subject: I love these threads
Message:
They remind me of life in a premie house - the good, bad and ugly - and that sense of community that some of us still want. Only there's no house mother or those friggin house meetings!
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