Jim -:- Who's my Local Event Amaroo Participation Contact? -:- Wed, Aug 02, 2000 at 14:57:14 (GMT)

__ sam -:- Who's my Local Event Amaroo Participation Contact? -:- Thurs, Aug 03, 2000 at 05:14:26 (GMT)

__ __ Lotus Eater -:- Sam, with a comment like that you must be -:- Thurs, Aug 03, 2000 at 22:07:56 (GMT)

__ __ __ sam -:- Sam, with a comment like that you must be -:- Fri, Aug 04, 2000 at 01:30:58 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ Lotus Eater -:- Sydney in the seventies -:- Fri, Aug 04, 2000 at 20:14:54 (GMT)

__ TD -:- Curious? Is Mariane Brown originally a Kiwi? -:- Thurs, Aug 03, 2000 at 03:47:17 (GMT)

__ Joe -:- Why isn't an FC an APCP? -:- Wed, Aug 02, 2000 at 18:46:18 (GMT)

__ __ Hey -:- Why isn't an FC an APCP? -:- Thurs, Aug 03, 2000 at 04:34:05 (GMT)

__ __ __ Joe -:- Another Question.... -:- Thurs, Aug 03, 2000 at 17:06:59 (GMT)

__ __ __ Joe -:- Try opening your eyes. -:- Thurs, Aug 03, 2000 at 14:12:46 (GMT)

__ __ __ Steve -:- eat shit - so many flies can't be wrong ! nt -:- Thurs, Aug 03, 2000 at 12:57:54 (GMT)

__ __ __ Rob -:- Vox populii -:- Thurs, Aug 03, 2000 at 05:22:25 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ Hey -:- Vox populii -:- Thurs, Aug 03, 2000 at 06:30:28 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ To HEY -:- In the community of Detroit -:- Thurs, Aug 03, 2000 at 17:43:14 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ Jim -:- SB, why do you continue to post without a name? -:- Fri, Aug 04, 2000 at 00:58:52 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ Stonor -:- To HEY: In an unnamed European community . . . -:- Thurs, Aug 03, 2000 at 20:48:26 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ Rob -:- Double dare:) -:- Thurs, Aug 03, 2000 at 06:53:01 (GMT)

__ __ __ la-ex -:- Why isn't an FC an APCP?/attendance assessment... -:- Thurs, Aug 03, 2000 at 05:03:10 (GMT)

__ __ __ Jim -:- Who are you? Have you posted here before? -:- Thurs, Aug 03, 2000 at 04:36:38 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ Hey -:- edited -:- Thurs, Aug 03, 2000 at 05:07:17 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ Jim -:- Oh fuck, I think I'm going to kill myself -:- Thurs, Aug 03, 2000 at 06:32:41 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ Rob -:- Yeah Jim's a heavy hitter! Talk to me instead:) -:- Thurs, Aug 03, 2000 at 05:26:39 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ Hey's been -:- edited -:- Thurs, Aug 03, 2000 at 06:33:26 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Rob -:- Very deep stuff, Hey, -:- Thurs, Aug 03, 2000 at 06:57:22 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Hey Ho Way to Go!! -:- edited -:- Thurs, Aug 03, 2000 at 07:22:23 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Rob -:- Try directory assistance -:- Thurs, Aug 03, 2000 at 07:38:53 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Rob -:- Doesn't ring any bells, sorry -:- Thurs, Aug 03, 2000 at 12:43:22 (GMT)

__ G -:- .... to etc. -:- Wed, Aug 02, 2000 at 18:09:02 (GMT)

__ __ Simon Satsang -:- Don't mock -:- Wed, Aug 02, 2000 at 18:17:24 (GMT)

__ __ __ Pauline Premie -:- Thanks, Simon -:- Wed, Aug 02, 2000 at 18:40:06 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ G -:- I'm humbled -:- Wed, Aug 02, 2000 at 19:08:32 (GMT)

__ __ __ Salam -:- Do we need smart cards to do service at -:- Wed, Aug 02, 2000 at 18:31:29 (GMT)

__ Sir Dave -:- Who's my Local Event Amaroo Participation Contact? -:- Wed, Aug 02, 2000 at 18:02:40 (GMT)

__ __ Stonor -:- Amen, thank God that's not the end.(nt) -:- Fri, Aug 04, 2000 at 04:49:21 (GMT)

__ __ __ Stonor -:- Sir Dave - don't know where the post above comes.. -:- Fri, Aug 04, 2000 at 19:55:11 (GMT)

__ Marianne -:- No relation to this Marianne -:- Wed, Aug 02, 2000 at 15:09:21 (GMT)

__ __ Sir Dave -:- Oh yes, and I hated the food (nt) -:- Wed, Aug 02, 2000 at 18:07:12 (GMT)

__ __ __ A Yank -:- This, from a Brit, means the food was shit! -:- Thurs, Aug 03, 2000 at 00:58:23 (GMT)

JtF -:- Cyber K/Phase II is just info control technique -:- Wed, Aug 02, 2000 at 09:52:17 (GMT)

__ Jim -:- Great minds imitate cult members alike -:- Wed, Aug 02, 2000 at 14:00:50 (GMT)

__ __ JtF -:- Great minds imitate cult members alike -:- Thurs, Aug 03, 2000 at 09:29:56 (GMT)

__ __ __ Jim -:- Thanks, ditto, and beats me (nt) -:- Thurs, Aug 03, 2000 at 16:08:51 (GMT)

Jim -:- Brian McDermott's Poconos Mindfuck (7/9/77) -:- Wed, Aug 02, 2000 at 02:04:30 (GMT)

__ Ben Lurking -:- Brian McDermott's Poconos Mindfuck (7/9/77) -:- Wed, Aug 02, 2000 at 18:21:23 (GMT)

__ Jim -:- And here's a taste of Dettmer's that day -:- Wed, Aug 02, 2000 at 14:44:23 (GMT)

__ __ Joe -:- Michael Dettmers -:- Wed, Aug 02, 2000 at 18:09:02 (GMT)

__ __ __ Lurkex -:- About them Poconos -:- Wed, Aug 02, 2000 at 18:23:24 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ Joe -:- Great Story, Lurkex..... -:- Wed, Aug 02, 2000 at 18:32:08 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ cq -:- Maharaji touched me really deep ...in the Poconos? -:- Thurs, Aug 03, 2000 at 20:03:11 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ Jethro -:- Great Story, Lurkex..... -:- Wed, Aug 02, 2000 at 18:42:31 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ Lurkex -:- Great Story, Lurkex..... -:- Wed, Aug 02, 2000 at 23:57:21 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Jethro -:- Great Story, Lurkex..... -:- Thurs, Aug 03, 2000 at 07:04:17 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ Salam -:- Great Story, Lurkex..you are Hilarious. Stop or -:- Wed, Aug 02, 2000 at 18:41:37 (GMT)

__ __ Salam -:- And here's a taste of Dettmer's that day -:- Wed, Aug 02, 2000 at 16:59:17 (GMT)

__ Joe -:- Brian McDermott's Poconos Mindfuck (7/9/77) -:- Wed, Aug 02, 2000 at 13:54:17 (GMT)

__ __ Lotus Eater -:- Brian McDermott -:- Wed, Aug 02, 2000 at 22:14:10 (GMT)

__ __ __ Jim -:- He's suffering a bit? Ha! Fuck him! -:- Thurs, Aug 03, 2000 at 00:28:41 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ Lotus eater -:- seven years bad karma -:- Thurs, Aug 03, 2000 at 21:54:51 (GMT)

__ __ __ Joe -:- Brian McDermott -- really? -:- Wed, Aug 02, 2000 at 22:28:52 (GMT)

__ poul -:- Brian McDermott's Poconos Mindfuck (7/9/77) -:- Wed, Aug 02, 2000 at 13:35:47 (GMT)

__ Anon -:- Brian McDermott's Poconos Mindfuck (7/9/77) -:- Wed, Aug 02, 2000 at 10:20:22 (GMT)

__ Felix the ... -:- edited -:- Wed, Aug 02, 2000 at 03:49:02 (GMT)

__ __ Joey -:- And now here's Mr Sensitivity!!!! -:- Wed, Aug 02, 2000 at 04:02:52 (GMT)

__ __ __ Salam -:- Pokeman sermon -:- Wed, Aug 02, 2000 at 05:42:04 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ Jerry -:- Pokeman sermon -:- Wed, Aug 02, 2000 at 16:34:19 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ Katie -:- Or 'just' (in both speeches) -:- Wed, Aug 02, 2000 at 17:07:29 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ Joey -:- Or 'just' (in both speeches) -:- Wed, Aug 02, 2000 at 17:30:48 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Katie -:- THIS (or THAT) experience is JUST... (nt) -:- Wed, Aug 02, 2000 at 17:55:41 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Joe -:- THIS (or THAT) experience is JUST... -:- Wed, Aug 02, 2000 at 18:12:46 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Katie -:- Yeah, the opening line was a classic. -:- Fri, Aug 04, 2000 at 15:57:26 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ G -:- And it's just like, who knows? -:- Fri, Aug 04, 2000 at 16:16:25 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ G -:- 'just' (Dettmer's speech) -:- Wed, Aug 02, 2000 at 17:38:26 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Salam -:- 'just' (Dettmer's speech) -:- Wed, Aug 02, 2000 at 18:23:52 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ Stonor -:- Oh, if he ever comes, now, now, if he ever comes.. -:- Wed, Aug 02, 2000 at 14:10:01 (GMT)

Jim -:- Am I just a nitpicker (Part II) -:- Tues, Aug 01, 2000 at 16:20:47 (GMT)

__ Jerry -:- Am I just a nitpicker (Part II) -:- Tues, Aug 01, 2000 at 17:13:29 (GMT)

__ Salam -:- Am I just a nitpicker (Part II) -:- Tues, Aug 01, 2000 at 16:44:20 (GMT)

Salam -:- Jim you owe me 10 bucks. -:- Tues, Aug 01, 2000 at 15:52:58 (GMT)

__ SB -:- DUO Is getting a 'makeup' (nt) -:- Tues, Aug 01, 2000 at 16:30:04 (GMT)

__ Salam -:- shheeet Ji, did not read your post properly -:- Tues, Aug 01, 2000 at 16:07:20 (GMT)

__ Jim -:- Why, you slimy salami! -:- Tues, Aug 01, 2000 at 16:04:16 (GMT)

Sir Dave -:- Any joy with Cult Watch, David? -:- Tues, Aug 01, 2000 at 09:46:18 (GMT)

buzz -:- divorce -:- Tues, Aug 01, 2000 at 05:44:05 (GMT)

__ Buzz -:- Kriya -:- Tues, Aug 01, 2000 at 15:32:05 (GMT)

__ __ Way -:- Oops, the above post is from Way, to Buzz -:- Tues, Aug 01, 2000 at 15:34:01 (GMT)

__ __ __ buzz -:- Oops, the above post is from Way, to Buzz -:- Wed, Aug 02, 2000 at 16:13:34 (GMT)

__ SB -:- divorce -:- Tues, Aug 01, 2000 at 06:32:35 (GMT)

__ __ Lurkex -:- divorce, getting out, etc... -:- Tues, Aug 01, 2000 at 14:57:46 (GMT)

__ __ __ Joe -:- So true... -:- Tues, Aug 01, 2000 at 17:41:15 (GMT)

__ __ __ SB -:- divorce, getting out, etc... -:- Tues, Aug 01, 2000 at 15:16:55 (GMT)

Joey -:- Are these guys premies ? -:- Tues, Aug 01, 2000 at 02:58:38 (GMT)

__ rocket man -:- Are these guys premies ? -:- Wed, Aug 02, 2000 at 19:51:10 (GMT)

__ J. Edgar Hoover -:- edited -:- Tues, Aug 01, 2000 at 06:40:08 (GMT)

__ __ Joey -:- I thought you were dead, but... -:- Tues, Aug 01, 2000 at 14:23:18 (GMT)

__ __ __ Sb -:- I thought you were dead, but... -:- Tues, Aug 01, 2000 at 15:22:18 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ Salam -:- 5 to 1 he is a gumi....nt -:- Tues, Aug 01, 2000 at 15:43:03 (GMT)

__ Joe -:- Are these guys premies ? -:- Tues, Aug 01, 2000 at 03:47:05 (GMT)

__ __ Lurkex -:- When exes become premies again... -:- Tues, Aug 01, 2000 at 14:44:26 (GMT)

__ __ __ Joe -:- When exes become premies/Linda Smith -:- Tues, Aug 01, 2000 at 16:48:17 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ Lurkex -:- To Joe -:- Wed, Aug 02, 2000 at 18:00:29 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ Joe -:- Sure..... -:- Wed, Aug 02, 2000 at 18:21:04 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ Jim -:- Parallels to Bob Kirby's story -:- Wed, Aug 02, 2000 at 14:14:37 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ Lurkex -:- Parallels to Bob Kirby's story -:- Wed, Aug 02, 2000 at 18:11:20 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ Joe -:- I don't get it -:- Wed, Aug 02, 2000 at 17:49:07 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ Joey -:- I get it... -:- Wed, Aug 02, 2000 at 18:56:19 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Joe -:- Thanks, Joey, it just goes to show you how... -:- Wed, Aug 02, 2000 at 19:02:47 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Jim -:- Bob was filled with sinful pride after this -:- Thurs, Aug 03, 2000 at 00:05:22 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Joe -:- So, I take it Bob is an ex-premie now...... -:- Thurs, Aug 03, 2000 at 00:42:00 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Jim -:- Last time I heard -:- Thurs, Aug 03, 2000 at 00:55:33 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Marianne -:- I would've been too -:- Thurs, Aug 03, 2000 at 00:27:05 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Joey -:- You're welcome Joe, and... -:- Wed, Aug 02, 2000 at 19:33:30 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ Joey -:- The dance with m-that I declined -:- Wed, Aug 02, 2000 at 02:53:06 (GMT)

__ __ __ Jim -:- When exes become premies again... -:- Tues, Aug 01, 2000 at 16:02:14 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ Joe -:- Probably true, Jim -:- Wed, Aug 02, 2000 at 03:14:56 (GMT)

__ __ G -:- Are these guys premies ? -:- Tues, Aug 01, 2000 at 13:41:02 (GMT)

__ __ __ Joe -:- A Question G..... -:- Tues, Aug 01, 2000 at 16:56:53 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ newt gingrich -:- A Question G..... -:- Wed, Aug 02, 2000 at 19:28:53 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ Joe -:- Thanks, Newt -:- Wed, Aug 02, 2000 at 20:28:45 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ newtie newtie gingrinch -:- Thanks, Newt/no problem Joe! -:- Thurs, Aug 03, 2000 at 02:38:06 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Joe -:- Thanks, Newt -:- Thurs, Aug 03, 2000 at 14:25:28 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ G -:- I wouldn't know (nt) -:- Wed, Aug 02, 2000 at 17:40:12 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ Joe -:- Sorry, G, got you mixed up with someone (nt) -:- Wed, Aug 02, 2000 at 18:22:18 (GMT)

__ __ __ Joey -:- Thanks Joe and G... -:- Tues, Aug 01, 2000 at 14:27:48 (GMT)

__ __ Rob -:- Talking of premies -:- Tues, Aug 01, 2000 at 04:07:49 (GMT)

__ __ __ X -:- Talking of premies -:- Tues, Aug 01, 2000 at 08:18:53 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ Jim -:- Is that all you can say, X? Y not simply ........ -:- Tues, Aug 01, 2000 at 16:09:01 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ X -:- Xtra Xplanation -:- Wed, Aug 02, 2000 at 08:41:37 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ Rob the Robot -:- Xtra Xplanation -:- Wed, Aug 02, 2000 at 21:05:10 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ Jim -:- If Rob's a robot, you're pure devo, bud -:- Wed, Aug 02, 2000 at 13:53:36 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ X -:- cute! -:- Fri, Aug 04, 2000 at 04:13:08 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ Salam -:- X, u defenitly need it..nt -:- Tues, Aug 01, 2000 at 13:14:36 (GMT)

__ __ __ Zelda -:- To Rob Joey Ham C ect -:- Tues, Aug 01, 2000 at 04:56:13 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ SB -:- It was about somethoing else -:- Tues, Aug 01, 2000 at 07:33:00 (GMT)

Rob -:- 'Sleep shall neither night nor day -:- Tues, Aug 01, 2000 at 00:35:40 (GMT)

__ Jean-Michel -:- Fodder for more pages! Service anybody? -:- Tues, Aug 01, 2000 at 07:35:17 (GMT)

__ G -:- Canada Customs and Revenue Agency - CA -:- Tues, Aug 01, 2000 at 01:33:26 (GMT)

__ G -:- Charity Commission for England and Wales - EV -:- Tues, Aug 01, 2000 at 01:10:44 (GMT)

__ __ Sir Dave -:- Complaining to England/Wales Charity Commission -:- Wed, Aug 02, 2000 at 12:56:11 (GMT)

__ __ __ Jean-Michel -:- Complaining to US authorities also, Dave? -:- Wed, Aug 02, 2000 at 13:12:46 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ Sir Dave -:- Complaining to US authorities also, Dave? -:- Wed, Aug 02, 2000 at 19:08:40 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ Jean-Michel -:- And what about the Swiss Cottage ownership? -:- Thurs, Aug 03, 2000 at 13:50:45 (GMT)

__ __ G -:- Swiss Govt -:- Tues, Aug 01, 2000 at 03:15:15 (GMT)

__ __ G -:- Australia, other links -:- Tues, Aug 01, 2000 at 02:03:06 (GMT)

__ __ __ Salam -:- Australia, other links -:- Wed, Aug 02, 2000 at 18:03:09 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ G -:- EV Australia -:- Fri, Aug 04, 2000 at 02:41:00 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ G -:- any opinions from the lawyers? -:- Wed, Aug 02, 2000 at 18:56:30 (GMT)

__ __ __ Rob -:- Thanks G -:- Tues, Aug 01, 2000 at 03:09:33 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ Salam -:- Australain tax laes regarding charities. -:- Tues, Aug 01, 2000 at 09:32:02 (GMT)

G -:- California Public Records Act -:- Mon, Jul 31, 2000 at 23:25:12 (GMT)

__ G -:- Corporate Records Order Form (CA) -:- Mon, Jul 31, 2000 at 23:35:54 (GMT)

Stonor -:- Why am I having difficulties posting? -:- Mon, Jul 31, 2000 at 20:57:46 (GMT)

__ Stonor -:- Descriptions of posting problem and steps taken... -:- Wed, Aug 02, 2000 at 13:03:20 (GMT)

__ __ X -:- try the ping test -:- Fri, Aug 04, 2000 at 04:29:14 (GMT)

__ __ __ Stonor -:- Huh? -:- Fri, Aug 04, 2000 at 15:25:25 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ X -:- Huh? -:- Fri, Aug 04, 2000 at 18:24:04 (GMT)

__ __ Katie -:- Descriptions of posting problem and steps taken... -:- Wed, Aug 02, 2000 at 16:46:17 (GMT)

__ __ __ Stonor -:- Descriptions of posting problem and steps taken... -:- Wed, Aug 02, 2000 at 18:34:42 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ Stonor -:- SOLUTION to posting problem and steps taken... -:- Thurs, Aug 03, 2000 at 02:18:02 (GMT)

__ X -:- Why am I having difficulties posting? -:- Tues, Aug 01, 2000 at 08:21:43 (GMT)

__ __ Stonor -:- You must be new here, and . . . -:- Tues, Aug 01, 2000 at 14:07:45 (GMT)

__ __ __ X -:- yes -:- Wed, Aug 02, 2000 at 08:59:48 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ Katie -:- No need to be rude -:- Wed, Aug 02, 2000 at 16:48:12 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ SB -:- Why don't you get lost! -:- Wed, Aug 02, 2000 at 10:53:23 (GMT)

__ Stonor -:- Tried to post SB again right after . . . -:- Mon, Jul 31, 2000 at 21:02:22 (GMT)

Date: Wed, Aug 02, 2000 at 14:57:14 (GMT) From: Jim Email: None To: Everyone Subject: Who's my Local Event Amaroo Participation Contact? Message:

From ELK: Helping out at Amaroo Hi! Amaroo's great! Amaroo's fantastic. Amaroo is simply a beautiful place to be... to express... to feel... to participate... to learn... to be part of... to make ready for an event that will bring people together... from all parts of the globe... with their teacher... in celebration... of this gift of life. I volunteered my services to EV Australia to be a part of this preparation process in August last year. Almost a year later I am living here, and each day I am able to give in this area of participation which bursts, both with challenges - and rewards... ( I have grown so much!) In this time there is no other place I could think of being. Keep in touch with what help is needed here, via your local event Amaroo Participation Contact Person or FC... to synch in with the application process... it's such a gift to say 'thank you'... here... it's one long, beautiful, committed and extended working holiday. Cheers to all - swept by this wonderful feeling! Mariane Brown Landscape Garden Maintenance Team, Amaroo

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Date: Thurs, Aug 03, 2000 at 05:14:26 (GMT) From: sam Email: - To: Jim Subject: Who's my Local Event Amaroo Participation Contact? Message:

and everything is so well organised up there because the premies are just so well organised and all the money is so well spent

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Date: Thurs, Aug 03, 2000 at 22:07:56 (GMT) From: Lotus Eater Email: None To: sam Subject: Sam, with a comment like that you must be Message:

an Amarusian! Thanks for the giggle. We probably do know eachother, do you want to find out? Lesley

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Date: Fri, Aug 04, 2000 at 01:30:58 (GMT) From: sam Email: - To: Lotus Eater Subject: Sam, with a comment like that you must be Message:

yes, I would, but I dont think we do know each other- we probably know a lot of the same people - but your name isn't familiar and I haven't spent a lot of time in Qld, I got k in sydney in the 70's

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Date: Fri, Aug 04, 2000 at 20:14:54 (GMT) From: Lotus Eater Email: None To: sam Subject: Sydney in the seventies Message:

I got K'ed in London but lived in Sydney in the 70's, was at NHQ in Wentworth ave, moved to the NSW north coast in 81. For a while there, I thought, I know who 'sam' is, this is really funny, he is using his father's name as an alias, but alas no. I reckon those 'premie kids' who have gotten K will turn round and ROAST their parents!! You are right, we might not know eachother. Do you still live in Syd? My partner, Bill, was aspirant coordinator in Sydney during the late 70's, something he did in all sincerity but wishes he hadn't now. Did you go to satsang at William St?, quite a few people from that era have moved up here over the years. Are you a closet ex?, I am in the process of 'coming out' at the moment, I can joke about it as much as I like, but I really care a lot, 25 year friendships are worth cleaning up. Good luck, Lesley

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Date: Thurs, Aug 03, 2000 at 03:47:17 (GMT) From: TD Email: None To: Jim Subject: Curious? Is Mariane Brown originally a Kiwi? Message:

Can anybody answer this for me? Does anybody know if this person used to live in NZ?

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Date: Wed, Aug 02, 2000 at 18:46:18 (GMT) From: Joe Email: None To: Jim Subject: Why isn't an FC an APCP? Message:

Honestly, how do they expect people to 'synch in with the application process' with confusing terms like this? How do they expect people to have THAT synchroniation? Since there are so few premies, I would imagine nearly every PWK also gets another impressive anagram title. And isn't that the purpose of life? To have 'one long, beautiful, committed and extended working holiday?' I mean what would an UNcommited extended working holiday be like? It would be worthless, right? I know for me, I just LOVE my 'working holidays.' I mean, they just mean so much to me. They are a gift. I will try to understand that better.

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Date: Thurs, Aug 03, 2000 at 04:34:05 (GMT) From: Hey Email: Where you going with that Gun in your hand? To: Joe Subject: Why isn't an FC an APCP? Message:

I am really puzzled by your perception that 'there are so few Premies' What do you base this on? To my knowledge there are more people world wide than there has been ever before and I've been around for thirty years and I am in a postion to accurately assess this. What do you base your assumption on Joe? No abuse please.

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Date: Thurs, Aug 03, 2000 at 17:06:59 (GMT) From: Joe Email: None To: Hey Subject: Another Question.... Message:

Since you are in a position to know, how many followers does Maharaji claim in India? How many followers does his brother, Sat Pal, and the former Bal Bahgwan Ji, who also claims to be the Perfect Master, have? How many people follow both of these jokers?

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Date: Thurs, Aug 03, 2000 at 14:12:46 (GMT) From: Joe Email: None To: Hey Subject: Try opening your eyes. Message:

Are there more premies now in the world than there were during Shri Hans time? I don't think you know. I don't know how many premies there are in India, nor how many gurus each of those people have. But in the West, Maharaji has a lot fewer followers now than he did 20 years ago, and if you've been around for 30 years you would know that. I saw a video from 1997 in which Maharaji bragged that 8,000 people showed up to an international program, and that it was the LARGEST one. Well, at international programs in 1979 and 1980 in Florida, we would get nearly 20,000. Where are they? Given how 'dedicated' Maharaji is to 'spreading knowledge' and how 'wonderful' it is, you would think the number of premies would have increased, and not decreased. The only thing that has increased is Maharaji's wealth. Numerous people have reported that there are fewer and fewer premies. In the West, pitifully few people are receiving knowledge, something like a couple hundred a year. Many people are leaving. Nearly everyone I knew who received knowledge, that I was at all close to, has left. Elan Vital brags about 3600 people who contribute money. That is a TINY number. Remember, Maharaji promised to spread knowledge to the whole world. DLM claimed 40,000 members in 1973. Where are they? Come on.

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Date: Thurs, Aug 03, 2000 at 12:57:54 (GMT) From: Steve Email: None To: Hey Subject: eat shit - so many flies can't be wrong ! nt Message:

nt

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Date: Thurs, Aug 03, 2000 at 05:22:25 (GMT) From: Rob Email: None To: Hey Subject: Vox populii Message:

Hey, er..hey... I'm also curious to know what difference it makes in your mind how many people have received knowledge and are currently practising? Is it a case of 'if this many people are into it, then it must be real?' Really? In terms of sheer demographics, the rawat cult pales in comparision with established religions like Christianity, Islam, Hinduism...etc. Should not the group with the biggest voice claim your devotions instead? Or is it a case of 'well if you're wrong about the numbers of premies, then hey, you must be wrong about everything else.'? You see my friend, most of the people here have 'been around for 30 years' also, and are in a position to 'assess things'. Perhaps more so, because we now have the freedom to be objective, without fear of offending some 'higher power', and see things as they really are. The 'success', if it exists, of the cult's current propogation efforts are simple to understand: potential recruits are simply not being told the truth about this organisation. Show me one 'new' person who is aware of the fact that Elan Vital falsely registered itself as a 'church' in order to avoid having to file details of its financial activities with the IRS. Find me another that is even remotely aware that Rawat used to proclaim himself to be the Lord of the Universe, and that, a few years ago, he or she would have been expected to prostrate themselves at his feet. Read thoroughly the stories on these pages...about the bogus charity status they claim to have, about the physical and mental abuse of its members, about unlawful exploitation of 'volunteer' labor, hazardous working conditions, total disregard for the laws of the land, shady domestic and international business dealings.....read them and tell me where else in Rawat's wonderful world of Knowledge you will hear these things? Explain to me why the Elan Vital FAQ pages make no mention of any of this, not even a single point of the dozens addressed here every day. Call them up and ask about DECA, Amtex, SEVA...about why they claim to be a church...ask them for a copy of their Tax exemption application or their Articles of Incorporation..better still, ask them for a copy of The Lord of the Universe video, then ask them why you can't have one, or anything unedited from before about 1985. Why are new people deprived the joy of watching old videos of darshan lines, heavy cosmic satsang and the 'master' dancing in his sesame street costume, or of reading the inspiring words in Who Is Guru Maharaji (available in paperback)? Hey, why is that? Make a point of giving the address of this website to every single premie, new and old, that you come across and urge them to read it. I dare you. But you won't, will you? Because you know yourself what has gone on and continues to go on, but have not the courage to face it. Or do you? Hey, prove me wrong, I'm an open kinda guy.

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Date: Thurs, Aug 03, 2000 at 06:30:28 (GMT) From: Hey Email: Dont I know you? To: Rob Subject: Vox populii Message:

To your original enquiry- I was responding to Joe's contention that presently ' there are very few premies and that numbers are shrinking' I am asking what he bases that statement on. Instinct or facts? PS Your last 'dare'. We do read it. So much hot air..........

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Date: Thurs, Aug 03, 2000 at 17:43:14 (GMT) From: To HEY Email: None To: Hey Subject: In the community of Detroit Message:

is only 7 premies left! David Mancof said that it was a good number because most have less than that. He was encouraging 'propagation' that a new phase had started. This happen three years or more a go. What do you think? Only two people received K on this area in 16 years!! Common! You are fooling yourself! Shut your mouth!

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Date: Fri, Aug 04, 2000 at 00:58:52 (GMT) From: Jim Email: None To: To HEY Subject: SB, why do you continue to post without a name? Message:

It makes it pretty hard to give premies shit for doing that when exes are too. Yet you persist ....

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Date: Thurs, Aug 03, 2000 at 20:48:26 (GMT) From: Stonor Email: None To: To HEY Subject: To HEY: In an unnamed European community . . . Message:

In an unnamed European community there was a dismal attendance of premies for a video event this past winter, as I was told by a premie. I was surprised (not entirely) to read in one of this same premie's recent posts here, that the premie community in his 'neck of the woods' was alive and thriving. But that wasn't the only lie I've heard him tell. He had also said that he didn't have much to do with m anymore, and that premies in general were a bunch of disfunctional losers, unlike him! Oh Divine Premie Denial and Projection! Stonor

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Date: Thurs, Aug 03, 2000 at 06:53:01 (GMT) From: Rob Email: None To: Hey Subject: Double dare:) Message:

Well OK you were quizzing Joe's contention etc etc. Joe can answer that himself if he wants. Personally I was making the point that the numbers don't mean a thing, in terms of gving any credence to the cult. So 'we' do read it huh? Well good. Um, who exactly is 'we'. Are you Glen Whittaker or some other official spokesperson? By 'we', do you mean you and a few of your pals from the old days, new premies, aspirants, what? So much hot air hmmm. By which you are saying what exactly? That none of it is true, that some of it is true, that it could all be true but doesnt matter because you are blissed out being a servant of the Lord? Do you want a discussion or not? I'm easy either way, but if you want to join in and give your side of the equation, you're gonna have to put out a bit more than the usual premie non-answers we get here. You see when you studiously avoid facing the issues being discussed here, it really does come across like you are actually afraid to probe your own thoughts and experiences. That's OK, you're certainly not alone, and if you're happy being a blissed-out happy clapper, stuck in a cult but don't know it, then I guess all I can say is, enjoy, and goodbye!

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Date: Thurs, Aug 03, 2000 at 05:03:10 (GMT) From: la-ex Email: None To: Hey Subject: Why isn't an FC an APCP?/attendance assessment... Message:

Can you tell us all how you are in a position to assess? The way I assess,at least the US is this: 1)there are 1800 US premies who contribute regularly ($500/yr or more) 2)another 1800 US premies give $1-500/yr 3)on the last US tour in miami, they had to call up old time premies to fill the hall for the 2nd night, because of the empty seats.m doesn't like empty seats,you know,it upsets him and he has given specific instructions to have them filled when he speaks.The organizers told the premies that they had important service for them to do at the hall, so they would feel guilty about not coming.When they arrived, they told them to just enjoy the show, they were not needed-at least they got the seats filled, without paying people to come...they just manipulated the premies... 4)programs in the 70's would draw 10-20,000 people.... 5)about 4,000 people attended the recent tour (there may have been more seats filled, but many of those were people who attended 2,3,4 or 5 times) 6)approx. 5-10% of all the people who ever received knowledge in the US or UK will attend a program.Less than that will contribute even $1/yr. 7)the US is in the process of closing almost all of the halls in the country... 8)m has said that the US, in terms of propagation,is 'falling off the table' 9)a recent fundraiser for amaroo attempted to raise $450,000. but at last count, raised about 100-150,000, causing program to be moved into unknown future.. 10)m has announced that tours will end. Now, if you have some other information that would show us a different story, as you are in a position to assess, I'm all ears....

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Date: Thurs, Aug 03, 2000 at 04:36:38 (GMT) From: Jim Email: None To: Hey Subject: Who are you? Have you posted here before? Message:

Everyone's supposed to use a name, even if it's fake. Who are you? Have you been here before? What's what? By the way, you've got to be kidding!

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Date: Thurs, Aug 03, 2000 at 05:07:17 (GMT) From: Hey Email: None To: Jim Subject: edited Message:

EDITED Jim, this jerk's been posting under several aliases, including Felix the Cat, Les Patterson etc. Most of the stuff has been kicked off, because as far as we're concerned the idiot is still banned. Duty FA

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Date: Thurs, Aug 03, 2000 at 06:32:41 (GMT) From: Jim Email: None To: Hey Subject: Oh fuck, I think I'm going to kill myself Message:

Are you threatening me? Are you threatening me!!? ... oh, sorry, wrong response..... Hey, here's one.. You can't post here and change your name again and again. Have you ever posted here before? If so under what name and when?

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Date: Thurs, Aug 03, 2000 at 05:26:39 (GMT) From: Rob Email: None To: Hey Subject: Yeah Jim's a heavy hitter! Talk to me instead:) Message:

But at least think of a name first! No really, I'm a pussycat to talk to, and I'd love to hear your angle on things. Rob

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Date: Thurs, Aug 03, 2000 at 06:33:26 (GMT) From: Hey's been Email: None To: Rob Subject: edited Message:

edited FA

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Date: Thurs, Aug 03, 2000 at 06:57:22 (GMT) From: Rob Email: None To: Hey Subject: Very deep stuff, Hey, Message:

not sure if I'm intellectually worthy of talking with you. You got anything else to say, or you just sniping?

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Date: Thurs, Aug 03, 2000 at 07:22:23 (GMT) From: Hey Ho Way to Go!! Email: None To: Rob Subject: edited Message:

edited FA

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Date: Thurs, Aug 03, 2000 at 07:38:53 (GMT) From: Rob Email: None To: Hey Ho Way to Go!! Subject: Try directory assistance Message:

If you're having trouble looking up my number. No really, its OK, just ring it once and hang up, I don't have Caller ID. Or open up a bogus Hotmail account and email me. Or post my initials - go on, you have my permission. Or where you last saw me. Or what I do for a living. Or how many kids I have. Oh ANYTHING but make me sweat like this. HAHAHA. You're too funny. Actually HeyHoHum I haven't a clue who you might be. I actually don't 'go back a LONG way with anyone', unless you're someone I've chatted with here before. But then you would have used another fake name, so I'm still none the wiser. So why not stop being a silly boy or girl and reveal yourself? So tell me, what was your point in saying you knew me? Are you trying to intimidate me or threaten me? What will you do next time you see me and we're alone? Go on, promise I won't subpoena you're ISP account details. The small amount of sane communication I could extract from this post leads me to think you are happy with your status quo. Am I right? So what's up? What is YOUR 'mission' here?

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Date: Thurs, Aug 03, 2000 at 12:43:22 (GMT) From: Rob Email: None To: Rob Subject: Doesn't ring any bells, sorry Message:

Is that your real name, or another of those funny australian ones being bandied about elsewhere? Either way I never heard of you. But feel free to watch, if that's what rocks your world.

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Date: Wed, Aug 02, 2000 at 18:09:02 (GMT) From: G Email: None To: Jim Subject: .... to etc. Message:

Here's this weird punctuation again, now in the form of periods (....) instead of the commas (,,,,) that were in a pwkie's post. It looks like they are mimicking the massa's long pauses. Boy, I'm missing out on my chance to maybe, just maybe, be a LEAPC or FC (whatever that is), or better yet, to give up everything (it's all just maya anyway), move to Australia, and work in that sacred dirt as a member of the Amaroo Landscape Garden Maintenance Team, and that's Team with a capital T.

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Date: Wed, Aug 02, 2000 at 18:17:24 (GMT) From: Simon Satsang Email: foaming@themouth.con To: G Subject: Don't mock Message:

That landscape gardening is doing a lot of good for the world. Why do you have to be so negative. Here's a sister, giving her all for world peace and you just sit back and mock. We used to sing, 'Sacrifice your all to Satguru' and this sister is doing just that. She's probably left her children and spouse, parents and friends to do this essensial work for humanity. And all you people can do is imply that she's weird!

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Date: Wed, Aug 02, 2000 at 18:40:06 (GMT) From: Pauline Premie Email: None To: Simon Satsang Subject: Thanks, Simon Message:

Working in the dirt at Amaroo really is a service to humanity. As we all know, Maharaji is now in Phase II, and Amaroo is a part of that phase. We are going to, just around the corner, anytime now, going to start to fell and see that love and that gift just manifest in this world and boy, are you ex-premies ever going to have egg on your face! But Maharaji, out of his grace and that supreme love, will maybe allow you to clean latrines at Amaroo for about 30 years and then maybe you can kiss his feet again. As you know, he only allows premies to kiss his feet in India and Australia, so by the grace of that master, the master who never claimed to be god, and the eliminator of all cultural minsunderstandings about what 'superior power in person' means, you may before you end that precious life, just have that opportunity to experience that love again.

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Date: Wed, Aug 02, 2000 at 19:08:32 (GMT) From: G Email: None To: Pauline and Simon Subject: I'm humbled Message:

You are such beautiful and humble devotees, er.. students, of the Lord, oops I mean Master. I hang my head in shame. I mean, what was i THINKING!!!, His Holy Lotus Feet might have even trodden on that dirt! This is Holy Land we're talking about!

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Date: Wed, Aug 02, 2000 at 18:31:29 (GMT) From: Salam Email: None To: Simon Satsang Subject: Do we need smart cards to do service at Message:

Amaroo. We can pretend we are locals and we were drawn to the place because it is so nice... so good.. so beautiful. Or better maybe apply for the job, I have 5 years experience in gardening and landscaping. I will be the mother of all moles.

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Date: Wed, Aug 02, 2000 at 18:02:40 (GMT) From: Sir Dave Email: None To: Jim Subject: Who's my Local Event Amaroo Participation Contact? Message:

Now I know why I always felt out of place in the cult. I guess I never was like this premie. I hated festival sites with tent accomodation with snoring, smelly people. I hated the mud or the baking heat and I hated seeing premies wherever I looked. I guess I was a pretty hateful guy. I also hated Maharaji's discourses and loathed his wretched dancing. How I stayed in the cult for eleven years, I'll never know. I guess you accept any old crap if you think he's the Lord of the Universe.

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Date: Fri, Aug 04, 2000 at 04:49:21 (GMT) From: Stonor Email: None To: Sir Dave Subject: Amen, thank God that's not the end.(nt) Message:

aaaaa

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Date: Fri, Aug 04, 2000 at 19:55:11 (GMT) From: Stonor Email: None To: Sir Dave Subject: Sir Dave - don't know where the post above comes.. Message:

Sir Dave - don't know where the post above comes from or why, and I can't figure out what it's referring to. Just in case you're wondering... I am too! ;-) Stonor

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Date: Wed, Aug 02, 2000 at 15:09:21 (GMT) From: Marianne Email: None To: Jim Subject: No relation to this Marianne Message:

So, in other words, she now pulls weeds for free, lives in substandard housing, has no medical care, and is poorly fed. Sounds truly blissful to me! Marianne the Ex-Premie

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Date: Wed, Aug 02, 2000 at 18:07:12 (GMT) From: Sir Dave Email: None To: Marianne Subject: Oh yes, and I hated the food (nt) Message:

z

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Date: Thurs, Aug 03, 2000 at 00:58:23 (GMT) From: A Yank Email: None To: Sir Dave Subject: This, from a Brit, means the food was shit! Message:

nt

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Date: Wed, Aug 02, 2000 at 09:52:17 (GMT) From: JtF Email: None To: Everyone Subject: Cyber K/Phase II is just info control technique Message:

I don't think propogation for its own sake is the main goal of the cult leader. I feel that the new stuff being employed is just a way to keep the cult intact-separated, together in a bunch! First of all, by not having local gatherings, the active cult members will not be exposed to dwindling attendance-don't want to put ideas in their heads, you know. Secondly, with cyber K, this will allow for making any claims they want as to the number of new cult members. No witnesses. 'We're movin' on up' 'uga buga and praise the lord'. If the current cult base is kept in tact, some new additions are made(inflation and attrition), then more money can go to the cult because the cult members will have more money to give as they will be travelling less. Why give money to airlines or hotels if they can give it to rawat.

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Date: Wed, Aug 02, 2000 at 14:00:50 (GMT) From: Jim Email: None To: JtF Subject: Great minds imitate cult members alike Message:

'We're movin' on up' 'uga buga and praise the lord'. How embarrassing! See, in my post below to X I'd just said the same thing -- ugga bugga (mind you, I spelled it differently. Are you American?). Well, just goes to show you ....

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Date: Thurs, Aug 03, 2000 at 09:29:56 (GMT) From: JtF Email: None To: Jim Subject: Great minds imitate cult members alike Message:

I've never seen uga buga in print so I've no idea. I conducted an informal poll and the spelling I liked best was 'ugha bugha'. I really enjoy your posts. Where have all the rogue premie posters gone recently? Orders from on high?

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Date: Thurs, Aug 03, 2000 at 16:08:51 (GMT) From: Jim Email: None To: JtF Subject: Thanks, ditto, and beats me (nt) Message:

fffff

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Date: Wed, Aug 02, 2000 at 02:04:30 (GMT) From: Jim Email: None To: Everyone Subject: Brian McDermott's Poconos Mindfuck (7/9/77) Message:

Brian Mcdermott rallied the troops as we waited for Maharaji to fly in to the Poconos 'Court of Love' retreat in September, 1977. Here's a taste. Read this and weep, Brian. Jai Sat Chit Anand! I just feel completely helpless, and I want him to come and help me. Because I don’t know what to do. And I don’t want to sit here wasting my time, not loving him. It’s too precious. I just want Guru Maharaj Ji to come so much. Even though I know he’s here, I still want him to come so much. You know, I really do. So much. I just want Guru Maharaj Ji to come. I’m really glad the family’s together, and I’m … Actually I don’t even care if the family’s together. Guru Maharaj Ji, please come. That’s all I want. I just want him to come. I don’t want him to phone, and I know it’s the middle of the night and I know it’s really inconvenient, but I’d like him to get on a plane and I’d like him to come. I don’t even feel that I’d like him to come, but I just feel it so deeply that if there’s just the slightest possibility that he would come, that’s what I want to hope for. I don’t want it to stop my experience that I’m having right now. But if stopping the experience that I’m having right now would help him to come, I’d stop it! Oh, gosh! Okay, I’ll try. I’ll try to share some satsang. But I still want him to come. And this is so serious. It’s just really serious, because if he could have come, and he doesn’t come because we just don’t go deep enough, I’m going to feel terrible. And I don’t know how to bring him. I just don’t know how to bring him. But I really want him here. And if we have to sit here all night, and sit here all tomorrow, and sit here all tomorrow night, as lnog as he’s dancing by that phone I just – well, maybe for me it’s not such a great sacrifice. I don’t know – I don’t have a lot of commitments that everyone has. Maybe you’ll have to make the sacrifice. Maybe he’ll give me a sacrifice to make. But you know, I think the only thing we have to do … I don’t know what we have to do; I just feel completely -- I just want him to come! If that Love doesn’t have to have a reason, why do I have to have a reason to want it? Why can’t I just say, “Guru Maharaj Ji, just come, please.” And I know that we can sit here, and we can become enthusiastic. I know we can sit here. But I also know that there’s got to be a place that’s touched within inside our heart. And that’s the place from which we have to call Guru Maharaj Ji. On one hand, we can set up a video camera and Guru Maharaj Ji can see us waving and he can listen to us clapping, but do we want him more than anything on this Earth? ‘Cause that’s what I know it takes, or it might take. And that’s not something that I say just to say it, because I have things that are long overdue in being surrendered. And I’d really be willing to surrender those things – I think at this point I’d be willing to do anything if he would come. You know those songs that we sing – do we ever mean them? It’s so easy to sing a song that has a tune and you can clap to it and say, “I would give you everything I own. I would give you my life and my heart and my home.” But do we want to? To see him once again? You know, how much do we understand the value of Guru Maharaj Ji …. I can’t even say that. Guru Maharaj Ji doesn’t even have a value. What is the value of everything? But I know we have to go deep. I know thqt Guru Maharaj Ji is Guru Maharaj Ji. At least a little bit I know that. And it takes an incredible amount of letting go to let Guru Maharaj Ji just be a little of what he is for us. And just sitting on a cold field with mists blowing in, I don’t know how much that opens us up to the glory and the majesty of Guru Maharaj Ji. Somehow I think we just have to let go of a lot more than that. We just have to go back before that. We have to go back, much further back. And it’s hard, you know, top long for that moment, because there’s an ache. When that time comes, when Guru Maharaj Ji does give us that glimpse of himself, there’s just such an ache within our being. Because it’s so beautiful. But that ache calls. It can call to Guru Maharaj Ji. Our ache within our heart called him to this Earth. It called him to us. This Knowledge was revealed to us so that we could have that connection with Guru Maharaj Ji. But even that is only activated, only becomes real, when we pray, when we long in the deepest part of our heart that he keeps an experience alive for us. But are we willing to be large enough by letting go of all the smallness within inside of us? Are we really willing to let every moment of satsang tonight penetrate – really keep our concentration focused, so deeply, into every word, so that every single opportunity that’s presented, every single bit of Grace that’s flowing out to prepare us for that longing to hear the words of Guru Maharaj Ji, is taken full advantage of?

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Date: Wed, Aug 02, 2000 at 18:21:23 (GMT) From: Ben Lurking Email: None To: Jim Subject: Brian McDermott's Poconos Mindfuck (7/9/77) Message:

When I was done with the construction of Unity School in Denver in Sept 77 I really got to feel that love that grace - thas when My ashram tour of duty was concluded without any notice, it was ...oh by the way ... go find a place to live, we well let you have some tools and a truck on your way out the door but please don't let it hit you in the ass.

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Date: Wed, Aug 02, 2000 at 14:44:23 (GMT) From: Jim Email: None To: Jim Subject: And here's a taste of Dettmer's that day Message:

And it's just like, who knows? Every time we have the opportunity for Guru Maharaj Ji's darshan, our growth, our openness, our Love, our experience of Knowledge is jsut multiplied a million times. You can't even put a quantity to it. It just opens up. And what Maharaji has done for us today we'll never understand, we'll never really realize it. We'll never be able to figure it out. But it's more than those thousnad steps that Maharaji takes. Because we use that example: we just take one little step towards Guru Maharaj Ji, and he takes a thousand steps ... You can say a million, a billiob, because where Maharaji is coming from is infinite. You can't even put a figure on it. But he's come into our lives in a way that we never could have expected, we could have never hoped. But that pure Grace that he talks about just manifests. And maybe our faith is a little bit stronger now, and maybe our trust is a little bit stronger. And we're going to be able to just give more. And then who's going to benefit? Maharaji? Maharaji, who was up on this stage and who actually looked tired, who wasn't just saying all he had gone through, but actually looked it? But still, why does the Perfect Master keep coming again and again? For himself? I just realize that the more I realize what Maharaji is doing for us, the more I realize that I just want that red carpet wherever he goes. That we've just got to understand how precious Guru Maharaj Ji is for us. Because it wasn't that smooth, as he said. The plane arrived much later than was expected, and it was foggy and there was jsut nobody in New York that was there to greet him. And it's just like, when we recognize who Guru Maharaj Ji is, then we want everything to be as perfect as it can be. We say that we want the best for Guru Maharaj Ji. The best isn't good enough; it's unfortunate that that's what we have to settle for. But even Guru Maharaj Ji is taking us beyond those limitations as well, what the world defines as 'best'. But still, there was nothing arranged. And Maharaj knew that. He knew that before he stepped in the plane. But that wasn't reason enough for him not to come. He still came. And I just see that whatever effor we're making, it's just so insignificant compared to the significance of Guru Maharaj Ji in our lives. And that love and devotion is so critical, is the thing that will give us that trust and that faith and that Love to be able to surrender. To me, that's what Knowledge is. Knowledge is just the means to surrender. Knowledge is just the means to get closer to Guru Maharaj Ji. Because the more that we can surrender to Guru Maharaj Ji, the more that we can just get rid of this ego, ger rid of this mind, get rid of anything that's separating us from Guru Maharaj Ji, then the more that expeience of perfection is just there. Perfection is right there. It's just that there's this mind, there's this thing that's just blocking it from coming through. And if we can take that and surrender it to Guru Maharaj Ji through satsang, service and meditation, then the thing that we want just manifests without any apparent effort, because we recognize that everything that comes is just through his Grace. We begin to realize that all we need is Love and humility to really realize this Knowledge. And an understanding that Knowledge isn't a joke. Maharaji once said that there's the experience of Knowledge, and then there's understanding Knowledge and understanding Guru Maharaj Ji. And there's a difference. But he said, actually both are equally important. We have to understand a few things that are constant; they have to be constant in our awareness. And one is that life is no joke, Guru Maharaj Ji is no joke. Because that'll give us the determination to practise Knowledge. But when that determination comes, once we've made that decision, then that Grace takes over, and actually, what happens is something so much more than understanding, so much more than determination, and it's just an experience of Knowledge. Adn the experience is that we just have to be humble. The qualification for anyone receiving this Knowledge is to understand one simple thing, and that is that we're weak and that we're ignorant and that we're filled withthe impurities of this world. That si the vow that we say to Maharaj Ji when we receive Knowledge; that's the acknowledgement that we make, and that's about as simple as the qualifications are. They're not that we have to be great yogis, that we have to be detached, that we have to be all of these things that we think we need to be in order to be realizing Knowledge. But just to recognize that we are weak, that we are ignorant, and that we are filled with the impurities of this world, adn that it is that Love and that is that Grace that Guru Maharaj Ji bestows upon us that can take us beyond it, that can take us beyond all of those limitations. We just have to keep recognizing that he's always here and alwyas with us.

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Date: Wed, Aug 02, 2000 at 18:09:02 (GMT) From: Joe Email: None To: Jim Subject: Michael Dettmers Message:

Well, here is good old Michael Dettmers again, flying into the Poconos with Maharaji and letting us know what terrible inconveniences Maharaji has to put up with, like that there weren't throngs of adoring premies at the airport when he arrived in New York, because they were all in the Poconos. What a terrible, burdonsome thing to have to put up with! I am just appalled. But the following section of Michael's talk really gets to me, and Michael said the same thing a few months later in Rome, in that satsang Bill quoted some time ago: To me, that's what Knowledge is. Knowledge is just the means to surrender. Knowledge is just the means to get closer to Guru Maharaj Ji. Because the more that we can surrender to Guru Maharaj Ji, the more that we can just get rid of this ego, get rid of this mind, get rid of anything that's separating us from Guru Maharaj Ji, then the more that expeience of perfection is just there. Perfection is right there. I don't think you could get any more 'raving-cult' than this. I think it sums up perfectly how Maharaji was fucking with our minds and how the honchos around Maharaji repeated it endlessly. Your purpose is to surrender your life to Maharaji and to get rid of your own mind and ego, as well as ANYTHING else in your life that isn't Maharaji. To anyone who took any of this literally, this meant, career, family, friends, community involvement, personal development, and virtually anything else. Knowledge was just the hook to get you involved and getting you to surrender, which we weren't told about when we received knowledge. True bait and switch. So, my question is, what the hell has happened to Michael Dettmers???? He appeared here briefly a few months ago, and gave a few corporate-speak explanations for his major involvement in helping Maharaji do what he did, but my main question is, doesn't Michael Dettmers feel any obligation to do something to address these kinds of statements he made, even if it's just to come out publicly and discuss this, since he has apparently has now rejected all that he said that day in the Poconos? To redress the effect this had on fucking up peoples' lives? Doesn't he have any moral compunction to deal with the fact that he helped enable Maharaji to damage so many people? All we hear from Michael Dettmers is silence. Do any of you think he has any moral principles whatsoever? I hope he does, but I am losing, what is the word? -- THAT FAITH AND THAT TRUST! Michael, if you are reading this, please restore my faith and trust.

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Date: Wed, Aug 02, 2000 at 18:23:24 (GMT) From: Lurkex Email: None To: Joe Subject: About them Poconos Message:

'Well, here is good old Michael Dettmers again, flying into the Poconos with Maharaji and letting us know what terrible inconveniences Maharaji has to put up with, like that there weren't throngs of adoring premies at the airport when he arrived in New York, because they were all in the Poconos. What a terrible, burdonsome thing to have to put up with! I am just appalled.' No, he ddidn't have to put up with those inconveniences, because there were several of us in NYC, preparing luxury suites for him and his enormous entourage. When he agreed to come to the Poconos thing, it was on the condition that he bring an entourage of about 30 people, and that all their fares be paid. We got the best suite in the Plaza, and I was there when Mahalard arrived and nixed it, moving over to the Pierre, which was more his cup of cognac. When the Lard came into the Plaza suite and saw me, (trying to hide with my cleaning cloths and so on) he said to the person with him, 'What's she doing here?' It was pretty unloving, now that I think of it, but I was blissed out at any attention whatsoever, and made all kinds of deep meanings out of it. I mean, if you're going to have a guru, it would be great if he/she would say hello after not seeing you for ages, since they love you more than life itself! Plus we lucky servants in the city missed the dramatic helicopter landing in the Poconos. But oh the grace!

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Date: Wed, Aug 02, 2000 at 18:32:08 (GMT) From: Joe Email: None To: Lurkex Subject: Great Story, Lurkex..... Message:

Somehow I had the feeling that Maharaji never experienced much of anything that wasn't better than first class. Maharaji could be rude, you know. At least he looked at you, that is a true triumph. I don't believe I ever even got that 'gift'. But something else comes to mind. Few months later, there was a birthday 'party' for Maharaji in Los Angeles, at the Shriners Auditorium. A bunch of us flew all night from Chicago to get there for it, and we sat for many hours listening various initiators give satsang before HIMSELF arrived. Anyhow, some initiator got up and said: Maharaji touched me really deep in the Poconos, and I just know that he will touch me in other places as well. Anyhow, maybe it was the lack of sleep or whatever, but I started laughing and I couldn't stop. It just struck me as hysterical. I felt so guilty. I had to leave the room and sit in the bathroom and laugh where no one would see me as an un-surrendered devotee.

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Date: Thurs, Aug 03, 2000 at 20:03:11 (GMT) From: cq Email: None To: Joe Subject: Maharaji touched me really deep ...in the Poconos? Message:

er... excuse me?

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Date: Wed, Aug 02, 2000 at 18:42:31 (GMT) From: Jethro Email: None To: Joe Subject: Great Story, Lurkex..... Message:

You reminded me of a satsang given by Irene Hall( a used-to-be initiator) in Kensington town Hall(London) in the late 70s. She was talking alot about 'the flow' and said tha she went into the lavatory(toilet for non-UKers) and she sat down and everything began to flow. Everyone cracked up...except her..she looked puzzled.

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Date: Wed, Aug 02, 2000 at 23:57:21 (GMT) From: Lurkex Email: None To: Jethro Subject: Great Story, Lurkex..... Message:

Heh, heh, heh. By the way, what do you mean, 'used-to-be initiator?' I know her. Is she an ex or just demoted?

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Date: Thurs, Aug 03, 2000 at 07:04:17 (GMT) From: Jethro Email: None To: Lurkex Subject: Great Story, Lurkex..... Message:

I havent't seen Irene hall for at least 15 years and have no idea of her whereabouts. I don't know if she is an ex or not.

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Date: Wed, Aug 02, 2000 at 18:41:37 (GMT) From: Salam Email: None To: Joe Subject: Great Story, Lurkex..you are Hilarious. Stop or Message:

I am gonna fall of my seat cracking up.

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Date: Wed, Aug 02, 2000 at 16:59:17 (GMT) From: Salam Email: None To: Jim Subject: And here's a taste of Dettmer's that day Message:

Did he believe this or was he saying it because he was getting paid for it. Pokemon sounds like a monkey compared to him. Reminds me of Allan Bond, ex-tycoon that was jailed for fraud, after his release he came on TV asking the Australian for forgiveness, but no mention of the 1.5 billion dollars that was never recovered. Anyway I am not doing a word search on him, I never liked him.

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Date: Wed, Aug 02, 2000 at 13:54:17 (GMT) From: Joe Email: None To: Jim Subject: Brian McDermott's Poconos Mindfuck (7/9/77) Message:

Just to provide a little background: By the time Brian McDemott was giving this psychotic rant that Jim quoted, Brian KNEW that Maharaji was on his way to Pennsylvania, or soon would be. Brian got to play the abject devotee, who, by his severe 'going deep' and 'LONGING' which was a frequently used term in this SUPER DEVOTIONAL PERIOD of Maharaji, the Lord of the Universe himself would arrive, pulled there by the deep love of his devotees on the East Coast. And then, of course, Brian's 'devotee stock' went up dramatically, when, surprise, surprise, Maharaji showed up soon after Brian's imploring, and nauseating, speech. The rest of the country, maybe the world, was listening to this drivel via 'phone feed,' the early equivalent to the current 'satellite feed,' that Maharaji is currently peddling. Phone feeds were not profit centers for Maharaji, but I suspect satellite feeds are. I remember endless, boring, 'phone feeds,' sitting in the ashram hall, listening to Maharaji and initiators blab on in Switzerland or Caracass. Anyhow, Maharaji did arrive in the Poconos, and his 'satang' too, was 'fed' (an appropriate word) to the rest of us as well. Maharaji spoke for about 30 minutes, at least half of which was made up of Maharaji bitching about how inconvenient it was to get to the Pocono Mountains. [I remember he complained that he was told the limosine ride from the airport was 30 minutes, but he was put out because it really took 45 minutes.] But the premies appeared to be blissed out that Maharaji would fly accross the country and abuse them in person. First Brian McDermott, and then Maharaji. How cool. I always thought Brian McDermott needed some kind of medication to deal with his obvious hyperactivity, and also his neurotic desire to always be the center of attention, using Maharaji as the reason he had an audience, of course.

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Date: Wed, Aug 02, 2000 at 22:14:10 (GMT) From: Lotus Eater Email: None To: Joe Subject: Brian McDermott Message:

I met Brian at Amaroo in the nineties, I also thought he needed professional help. I liked him a lot and have found myself thinking about him recently and hoping he has some ex-premie friends to help him through. He told me a story of how he was in a group that the shitty hamster was addressing, can't remember exact details but probably he was fussing and asking too many questions and fuckface pulled him up close and talked to him. Brian has no further recollection but was reliably informed that he barked, ran around and acted in general like a dog; to me that sounds just like a hypnotist's show.

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Date: Thurs, Aug 03, 2000 at 00:28:41 (GMT) From: Jim Email: None To: Lotus Eater Subject: He's suffering a bit? Ha! Fuck him! Message:

I've mentioned this before but I'll say it again. When I was in the Ottawa ashram, around the time of the Poconos in fact, McDermott came to town on your typical initiator tour. Having private interviews with initiators was in vogue then so I thought 'what the hell?' and made an appointment. In the interview I did what we were all doing then: I whined. I also mentioned that I'd done mushrooms one night during the six-month period I left the ashram in early '75. McDermott stared at me with those intense little badger eyes of his (beaver, maybe?) and told me with complete confidence that it would be a full seven years before I could even hope to recover for the karmic setback that night was costing me. Did I fuck up? You bet I did! So fuck you, Brian McDermott!

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Date: Thurs, Aug 03, 2000 at 21:54:51 (GMT) From: Lotus eater Email: None To: Jim Subject: seven years bad karma Message:

Yeah, okay, I wouldn't be too upset about a bit of karma catching up with Brian if I had a memory like that of him. Probably, when I met him he was in a 'more human phase'. He wasn't doing security or any honcho activities, had just come over for the event. I heard he was briefly reinstated as top security dog but left to be with his wife who was sick. My impression at that time was that he was close to a breakdown, well, he had surrendered to the Living Satguru who treated him like a dog, publicly humiliated him, and still he wasn't in samadhi, no he felt humiliated, ...very confusing! hehheh. On the subject of karma, we had a great party here last night, one of those evenings you hope you'll always remember. Afterwards i was remarking with a touch of sadness how in dumping the 'joys of Knowledge' I had also shed the shadow side of it and how much more enjoyable living had become, for having lost it all, both aspects. Suddenly sleep threatened to elude me as I put a few facts together, things like how this antipodean winter my time in the art studio had become so satisfying and productive; I came up with one last ditch excuse....it was my karma for taking acid, 27 years stuck on fuckface.

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Date: Wed, Aug 02, 2000 at 22:28:52 (GMT) From: Joe Email: None To: Lotus Eater Subject: Brian McDermott -- really? Message:

That is quite bizarre, but not really surprising. So, Brian told you he barked and ran around on all fours like a dog in front of Maharaji? Is that correct? What did Brian think about that? Was he embarrassed, or did he think Maharaji was operating him like a puppet, which I think Brian used to believe? Did he think it was grace? Or maybe his mind? Yes, Brian was endearing, in a pathological sort of way. He also could be very funny, but if you really listened to what he said, it was more disturbing than funny.

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Date: Wed, Aug 02, 2000 at 13:35:47 (GMT) From: poul Email: None To: Jim Subject: Brian McDermott's Poconos Mindfuck (7/9/77) Message:

IT STINKS SO BAD ....ZAPPA ONCE SAID

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Date: Wed, Aug 02, 2000 at 10:20:22 (GMT) From: Anon Email: None To: Jim Subject: Brian McDermott's Poconos Mindfuck (7/9/77) Message:

Well done Jim, for reminding us all of those times again. What with all the revisions and 'mumness' about the past that goes on around Maharaji and premies nowadays, one sometimes wonders whether one just dreamed it all! The re-publication of stuff like this amusingly over-the-top satsang is one of the things that I really enjoy about this forum. It's just so right and appropriate that these sort of examples of extraordinary human behaviour should be documented for us and our children. Especially since it would seem Elan Vital would rather not draw attention to this colourful past! Clearly there is a lot of embarassment about the past from both Maharaji and premies. I just wish they could have the guts to come out and say so much. I particularly loved: 'if he could have come, and he doesn’t come because we just don’t go deep enough, I’m going to feel terrible.' Get the whip out Brian! We were always reproving ourselves or being reproved, in satsang. This is a good example. It's quite funny really. I wish Elan Vital would see the funny side of all this. Premies did become terribly humourless at times. Devotion to the Master became less of a delightful joy and more a terrible responsibility - a heavy trip at times.

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Date: Wed, Aug 02, 2000 at 03:49:02 (GMT) From: Felix the ... Email: You are a chump To: Jim Subject: edited Message:

another nasty premie post edited FA

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Date: Wed, Aug 02, 2000 at 04:02:52 (GMT) From: Joey Email: None To: Felix the ... Subject: And now here's Mr Sensitivity!!!! Message:

What's the pain or tragedy that Brian's dealings with? I really haven't heard anything and wouldn't mind being filled in. I saw both of them at the Amtext party in May of 96. They certainly weren't in any pain then, receiving their plastic pyramids and life-time achievement awards. So what's up now? The last I heard they were going to retire from their bookbuying career. Can you let us know?

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Date: Wed, Aug 02, 2000 at 05:42:04 (GMT) From: Salam Email: None To: Jim Subject: Pokeman sermon Message:

Jim, I made a word count on some key words in Pockeman's bullshit sermon, this is what it came up with: I,me,mine 77 gm,him,his 44 you 9 us,our,we 39 give 4 want 16 buts.ifs 20 just 20 really 8 know 22 have to, don't 23 meditation 0 service 0 satsang 2 grace 1 surrender 2 knowledge 1 LOVE....... 1 As you can see he talks about himself twice as much as gum Ji. He tells us what to do and not to do 23 times. No mention of meditation, service. While love gets a 1. I always thought listining to satsang was most boaring, particularly when a pockeman like this idiot gives it. I can also see how I got indoctrinated, being told 23 time in one session what to do and not to do, just imagine how manay times that was said in 2 to 3 days event, add to it the daily dose of satsang, and all the other crapp that premies said then multply it be 20 years. It is no wonder that there are shrooms,mels and pokemans

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Date: Wed, Aug 02, 2000 at 16:34:19 (GMT) From: Jerry Email: None To: Salam Subject: Pokeman sermon Message:

Don't forget come, Salam. 15. Sheesh.

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Date: Wed, Aug 02, 2000 at 17:07:29 (GMT) From: Katie Email: None To: Jerry Subject: Or 'just' (in both speeches) Message:

Why did we all talk the same way? Weird to read this stuff.

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Date: Wed, Aug 02, 2000 at 17:30:48 (GMT) From: Joey Email: None To: Katie Subject: Or 'just' (in both speeches) Message:

Katie, I believe it's called 'assuming a cult identity.' Talking the same way, thinking the same way, acting the same way-was all part of it. Now if a study was done on comparing these words used most by Brian Mc and Michael D, to the most prevalent vocabulary employed by m in his satsangs, I believe you'll find where it all originated from. The modelling in the cult started at the top with m, and filtered down through the mahatmas and Pams to the rest of us. Very much the same as it works today, only some of the vocabulary has changed.

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Date: Wed, Aug 02, 2000 at 17:55:41 (GMT) From: Katie Email: None To: Joey Subject: THIS (or THAT) experience is JUST... (nt) Message:

nt

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Date: Wed, Aug 02, 2000 at 18:12:46 (GMT) From: Joe Email: None To: Katie Subject: THIS (or THAT) experience is JUST... Message:

I think this analysis of the meaningless words we used in satsang is really interesting. I particularly liked Dettmers' opening sentence for the deep meaning it imparts: And it's just like, who knows? It makes me want to pranam. ::))

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Date: Fri, Aug 04, 2000 at 15:57:26 (GMT) From: Katie Email: None To: Joe Subject: Yeah, the opening line was a classic. Message:

And it's just like, who knows? That's the line that really took me back. Can't even count how many times I heard AND said that in satsang :). Also, 'It's really, just, I mean, like, really just...', and similar phrases. I think Joey's right that premies copied a lot of Maharaji's speech patterns and frequently used words. It's also combined with a lot of 'old hippie' verbiage, as in the above. The 'just', and the 'this' and 'that' used as articles appear to come from Maharaji, though.

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Date: Fri, Aug 04, 2000 at 16:16:25 (GMT) From: G Email: None To: Katie Subject: And it's just like, who knows? Message:

And it's just like, who knows? Spoken by someone who 'received' the 'Knowledge of all Knowledges'.

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Date: Wed, Aug 02, 2000 at 17:38:26 (GMT) From: G Email: None To: Joey Subject: 'just' (Dettmer's speech) Message:

Count of certain wording in Dettmer's speech: 'just' - 24 'Guru Maharaji Ji' - 14 'Knowledge' - 13 'have to' - 8

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Date: Wed, Aug 02, 2000 at 18:23:52 (GMT) From: Salam Email: None To: G Subject: 'just' (Dettmer's speech) Message:

I did not expect this to be a popular issue when I did the word count. The whole of pokemon satsang did not seem right when I read it or tried to read it. If all these words were taken out of the text you will get a message, which is the echo of birds that were flying in his. Basically the guy can be classified as an idiot. like Joey said 'assuming a cult identity. Repetition makes perfect. Exactly what the vietnameese did to American POW, loudspeakers night and day swept their minds away. A lot of time I have to make an effert to stop speaking premie, and I have not been in touch with one since 1982. A credit to gum ji though, for doing a thorough job. p.s. G I posted a message below under Australian Links, I have more info on Ivory Rock, too sensitive to post, better to e-mail it.

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Date: Wed, Aug 02, 2000 at 14:10:01 (GMT) From: Stonor Email: None To: Salam Subject: Oh, if he ever comes, now, now, if he ever comes.. Message:

Reminds me of the Lou Reed song - talk about sexual connotations! Oooohoh, 'darshan' feels so goo-ood, Oooohoh, m's made out of (gilded) wood...

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Date: Tues, Aug 01, 2000 at 16:20:47 (GMT) From: Jim Email: None To: Everyone Subject: Am I just a nitpicker (Part II) Message:

Here's how ELK introduces it's 'Days' section: WELCOME to this new section of the site. Here, we invite you to tell us about a recent time when you felt especially glad to be alive. We're calling this section 'Days with Knowledge' but we're equally happy to hear from you about a week, a month, an hour or a single, memorable moment. Sorry, but I think that even in my deepest, darkest cult days I would have been offended by this shoehorning -- 'Jim, would you like to give satsang now? Please tell is about a recent time you felt especially glad to be alive' FUCK YOU! Okay, that was one. That felt good. What d'you got?

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Date: Tues, Aug 01, 2000 at 17:13:29 (GMT) From: Jerry Email: None To: Jim Subject: Am I just a nitpicker (Part II) Message:

Yeah, right? Everything's gotta be happy time with these fuckers, as if that's all life is about. Well, I guess, to a premie, that IS what life is all about, REAL life that is. All else is just maya. So..... Happy New Breath, Jim! :))))

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Date: Tues, Aug 01, 2000 at 16:44:20 (GMT) From: Salam Email: None To: Jim Subject: Am I just a nitpicker (Part II) Message:

I can see your point.My psychologist said to me it all right to scream and swear.

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Date: Tues, Aug 01, 2000 at 15:52:58 (GMT) From: Salam Email: None To: Jim Subject: Jim you owe me 10 bucks. Message:

This is a reply I recieved from EV on a question I had, Hi, At this time I do not think that the site for India is complete. However, the address of the site is www.duo.org.in Hopefully the site will be up and running shortly. Sincerely, Darlene Sounds like a nice person too, I think I deserve a bouns. This is the -----Original Message----- From: Salam AlAhmar [mailto:salam_au@iprimus.com.au] Sent: Tuesday, July 25, 2000 12:46 PM To: info@elanvital.org Subject: Indian contact in English Is there a URL for information about maharaji's {mission} in India, or EV in India,please Salam. So, 10 US of A bucks you owe me.

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Date: Tues, Aug 01, 2000 at 16:30:04 (GMT) From: SB Email: None To: Salam Subject: DUO Is getting a 'makeup' (nt) Message:

Disgusting!!

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Date: Tues, Aug 01, 2000 at 16:07:20 (GMT) From: Salam Email: None To: Jim Subject: shheeet Ji, did not read your post properly Message:

still, new stuff to add to favorites.

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Date: Tues, Aug 01, 2000 at 16:04:16 (GMT) From: Jim Email: None To: Salam Subject: Why, you slimy salami! Message:

I can't believe that an ex would try tp rip Joe off like this! (It's Joe's money we're talking about, Salam. Really, I've got very little to do with this). I said telephone contact, not email. And if I didn't that's what I meant. Sheesh!

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Date: Tues, Aug 01, 2000 at 09:46:18 (GMT) From: Sir Dave Email: sirdavid12@hotmail.com To: Everyone Subject: Any joy with Cult Watch, David? Message:

I would like to update the link to your site from Not Maharaji's Mixed Bag. Have you found a home for your site yet?

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Date: Tues, Aug 01, 2000 at 05:44:05 (GMT) From: buzz Email: None To: sb Subject: divorce Message:

hi sb i only found this site a few weeks ago,i'm still shakenfrom reading all the stuff.how many people have been hurt still trying to take it all in,i want to say how sorry i am for all the pain and shit we've gone through,funny how i feel so close to you all.in answer to the med. question i meant i still meditate but use kriya yoga.i like to read yogananda's stuff.what part of south america did you come from.sounds real nice.are you anywhere near california?i posted here a couple of weeks ago for the first time, i get on here now everyday to keep up with things.i.d like to say thanka to the people who got this thing going and to everyone who keeps it going.it's a tremendous help with the healing process luv buzz

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Date: Tues, Aug 01, 2000 at 15:32:05 (GMT) From: Buzz Email: None To: buzz Subject: Kriya Message:

Buzz, I used to be very into Yogananda, and his self-proclaimed successor Swami Kriyananda (Donald Walters). I read both 'Autobiography of a Yogi' and 'The Path' while in the ashram. The community coordinator caught me reading 'The Path' and inquired whether I was on the path or just reading about it. I am curious if you ever had any contact with Donald Walters and the Ananda community in northern California. Since you attended a Brighton program in the 90's, you may be British. What Kriya organization exists there? Have you followed the sexual scandal of Swami Kriyananda and the subsequent lawsuit? What is amazing to me is that Swami Kriyananda still seems to have a loyal following after all that!!

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Date: Tues, Aug 01, 2000 at 15:34:01 (GMT) From: Way Email: None To: Buzz Subject: Oops, the above post is from Way, to Buzz Message:

sorry bout that

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Date: Wed, Aug 02, 2000 at 16:13:34 (GMT) From: buzz Email: None To: Way Subject: Oops, the above post is from Way, to Buzz Message:

hi way yes i am in england i know of the sex scandel and that is one of the reasons walters had to leave the srf.there are a few centres here derby north notts london that i know of.there is a centre in leicester where a guy called swami shankaranda gives kriya yoga instruction(he doesnt ask you to worship him,thank god!!)his teacher lived at shri yukteswars ashram for 20 years so the kriya tecnique should be original.since practicing kriya from srf i've found meditation very interesting . regards buzz

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Date: Tues, Aug 01, 2000 at 06:32:35 (GMT) From: SB Email: None To: buzz Subject: divorce Message:

I 'left' last year. You say you are shaken by reading and what else can we expect...A while a go I was reading these notes a premie wrote about video contents, subjects maharaji touched on each video she had and read some; what a bunch of shit! Around and around, but always telling premies how much they need him, how good is to do service, the guilt trip, crap, crap, etc. I feel that I knew he was fake all along and that hamster asked/ordered me not to doubt stopped me from leaving sooner. Ex-premies..org took care of that...Welcome then. Interesting to know what we gave ourselves to, right? I don't meditate. I would like to meditate for few minutes sometimes but after so much programming I associate the techniques with him and it makes me sick. Some ex-premies meditate with same techniques. I don't know any others. I would like to do it as relaxation. Is not a big deal... Take care. sb

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Date: Tues, Aug 01, 2000 at 14:57:46 (GMT) From: Lurkex Email: None To: SB Subject: divorce, getting out, etc... Message:

Hi Buzz, Hi SB Welcome back to the real world, Buzz. It's very intense when you first get 'out' (been out for 16 years). It's great that you have this Forum as somewhere to go to sort of 'midwife' you into a new world. The most important thing I can think of right now is not to beat yourself up under any circumstances. If you were a sucker, you were in the company of thousands of others. It's good that you are able to enjoy meditation, if you like it, without the association of the techniques with MJ. I've always had a soft spot for Yoganand, and I remember reading his book just after I went in the ashram in 1971, and thinking the naughtly thought, hey this guy seems cooler than MJ. Then I suppressed the thought and anyway Yog was dead and I was with THE living master, but hey, was MJ in a direct lineage from Yog, he didn't seem to be, so one of them was fake, suppress the thought again. I became such an expert at suppressing the thoughts! I remember when Mj had a bad experience with a female coordinator in South America (remember Gita Bai, SB?) And he said, I will never give a job like that to a woman again. Now, I was brought up by nice, feminist parents, and this tore at my very fabric of disgust. But I suppressed the thought. All that thought suppression ended up making me pretty ill, as I posted below. BTW, SB, yes I have posted before, but not for a while. Much love and ongoing healing to all.

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Date: Tues, Aug 01, 2000 at 17:41:15 (GMT) From: Joe Email: None To: Lurkex Subject: So true... Message:

After I got out, I realized that I knew it was all basically crap from the beginning, but the 'don't doubt' and 'have faith' bullshit (which fit right in with my Catholic upbringing), kept me in. That, and what I think was a real wish that it really were true. I think I wanted a simple solution to all of life's problems, to my own insecurities, for my need for love, etc., and Maharaji claimed to offer that. Plus, because I dove in head first into the cult, I was always surrounded by other premies, which also kept me in. I also was confronted by the sexism in DLM, by the racism of the Mahatmas, by the homophobia of Maharaji, and by the obvious material greed that Maharaji had. That was really a hard one for me, because I had been raised with a kind of socialist class-consciousness by my Father. When I saw the warehouses of expensive stuff that Maharaji had, but couldn't even begin to use, and then saw how premies with kids scrimped on food and clothes to give him more money, I had to block those thoughts big time. By the way, do I know you?

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Date: Tues, Aug 01, 2000 at 15:16:55 (GMT) From: SB Email: None To: Lurkex and Buzz Subject: divorce, getting out, etc... Message:

Thank for your post! It's true, things are settling, healing is possible, don't know if total healing is, because how can you ever forget, memories are there, but to be out, to see the trick from the outside makes me feel good, free in a way, even that I have so much work to do sorting my head. Premies like me that were involved deeply in devoting themselves to Lard, doing service for years wanting to help propagate k got affected big time! I like coming here and being part in any way I can to unmask 'zorro'. It's fun mostly, because I knew it all along and he was confusing the subject making me think that my problems were related with not being a good devotee. Today the concept of devotion has taken such a different meaning than what mahalard taught me. Devotion to a mortal is so demeaning, it put a person in such a ugly, hopless position! I'll never forgive him por playing with my head, never. Too many years lost. I like what you said about not beating yourself up because I went through a period of time that I was very angry at myself for falling the trap, and looking to the fact that it happened to many makes a difference; it helps to know that other share our justified views, pain and anger. Love, SB

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Date: Tues, Aug 01, 2000 at 02:58:38 (GMT) From: Joey Email: jfnim@netc.net To: Everyone Subject: Are these guys premies ? Message:

Richard Kucera - Nasera Corp. Stephen G Danner - Shark International Investments Maria Giordano Ian Kelly - Mattique Tile R E Smith - Phoenix Global Aviation All the above individuals have two things in common. Their companies have all been registered in the state of Florida, by well known premie attorney Linda M Smith Esq acting as the registered agent. All have been registered out of the following address. 11900 Biscayne Blvd. Suite 200 Miami, Fl 33181 OR more commonly known as the AMTEXT office. If you can identify any of these individuals as premies please chime in this thread or let me know at the above email address. It would be greatly appreciated.

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Date: Wed, Aug 02, 2000 at 19:51:10 (GMT) From: rocket man Email: None To: Joey Subject: Are these guys premies ? Message:

Joey-I know that Rick Kucera moved out of miami abbout 4-5 years ago and has relocated to the Durham,NC area. He has a shop in Hillsborough,NC and is trying to get an aircraft parts business off the ground. He has had trouble keeping an employee to help him, as he is such an obnoxious prick, and feels superior to everyone. So far the business has not gotten off the ground, but he seems to have plenty of money and keeps on going...

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Date: Tues, Aug 01, 2000 at 06:40:08 (GMT) From: J. Edgar Hoover Email: Are you kidding? To: Joey Subject: edited Message:

edited FA (One name per poster please, and no abuse)

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Date: Tues, Aug 01, 2000 at 14:23:18 (GMT) From: Joey Email: None To: J. Edgar Hoover Subject: I thought you were dead, but... Message:

...if you have just risen up, why don't you put on a dress?? You might feel better :::)) No way - witch hunt. I wish them all the best. Just looking to give premies the honorable mention they deserve.

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Date: Tues, Aug 01, 2000 at 15:22:18 (GMT) From: Sb Email: None To: Joey Subject: I thought you were dead, but... Message:

Yes, because after all, premies are mahalard's hands. If anybody covered Lard's illegal ways of funneling money they are accountable too. Lets see how far mahariachi's grace helps them. I have a feeling that things are going to get ugly for the cult, very. I want to know where my money went. I want to know too who Hoover is? An ex or a premie?

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Date: Tues, Aug 01, 2000 at 15:43:03 (GMT) From: Salam Email: None To: Sb Subject: 5 to 1 he is a gumi....nt Message:

nt

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Date: Tues, Aug 01, 2000 at 03:47:05 (GMT) From: Joe Email: None To: Joey Subject: Are these guys premies ? Message:

There was a premie in Miami named Steve Danner. Cute, blonde, short guy. He was at IHQ when I was there, I think in accounting. I don't recognize any of the other names. It really is ironic. In the late 80s, Linda Smith, who was an old friend of mine from Chicago, and who I worked with at IHQ in Miami, before she went off to work in the Office of Guru Maharaji Ji, under none other than Michael Dettmers. By the way, Michael Dettmers told me recently that Linda handled his divorce for him. Anyhow, in 1986, Linda came to California and stayed at my place in Sausalito. She had come there from Miami for Barbara Casey's wedding. (Barbara Casey was a bit of a DLM honcho, in both Miami and Denver.) Anyhow, Lindae told me how much she HATED Maharaji, that he was an alcoholic and was having many affairs, cheating on Marolyn, with numberous 'blonde' premie women. She was really disgusted, and wanted nothing more than to get out of Miami and she didn't even want to practice law anymore, and instead wanted to move to Oregon, go back to school and become a therapist. That was, I think, in 1986, about three years after I had left the cult. There is another ex-premie I know very well who was there when Linda told us this. I spoke with her recently and she confirms that is what Linda said. To think Linda may be a premie again is beyond belief. I'm really floored.

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Date: Tues, Aug 01, 2000 at 14:44:26 (GMT) From: Lurkex Email: None To: Joe Subject: When exes become premies again... Message:

'To think Linda may be a premie again is beyond belief. I'm really floored.' Hi Joe. Dig your posts, man. I know what you mean about being floored. I have had similar experiences with premies who I thought were exes, and then they went back to MJ. In particular one PAM I knew well, who left for years and was the source of much amazing (to me then) information about MJ's alcoholism and tyrannical abusive behavior, then she suddenly stopped calling me about 2 years ago, and I found out that she had returned to the lardy fold! Why? What happened? As I tried to work through my personal upset and understand her motivation, I felt it was a desperate low self-esteem that was going through the floor and was reaching out for some SPECIALNESS to rescue it. It was like she was going through a life crisis and the one thread of selfhood that felt really strong to her was the over-inflated version of herself that was a devotee of the lord, and the dissociated bliss of so-called meditation (which is so different from what I now know to be meditation it isn't even funny). Being a devotee (especially close) is special enough to mask feelings of not being good enough and dissociative meditation can put you in a kind of blissful trance where you feel superior to the masses. I remember Linda Smith, too, from the old days, and she was nice and one of those very surrendered, obedient premies that I could never be. Someone who would feel guilty about having her own self, yet somehow thrived as a consistent servant. The kind of secretary every man wishes he could find (and rarely can any more). I remember thinking that maybe if I could be more like her, I would get better services closer to MJ. Thank God I was so basically feisty and they could tell!

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Date: Tues, Aug 01, 2000 at 16:48:17 (GMT) From: Joe Email: None To: Lurkex Subject: When exes become premies/Linda Smith Message:

Good analysis Lurk, and you are probably right. I suppose if your identity is so tied up in being a high servant of the Lord, it might be something you would miss. I do know that at OGM, Linda lived a rather 'high' life, much, much better than she did as an ordinary ashram premie, or IHQ staff attorney. The thing is, when you got to know Linda, you could see she was really quite irreverent and questioned things. Anyhow we used to talk about things that were screwed up in the Maharaji kingdom. I know when I left in 1983 I spoke with her about how I felt and she was mildly supportive, at least she said something like 'you have to do what is best for you' and didn't try to guilt-trip me into returning. So, in 1986, when she was disgusted and leaving the cult, I wasn't surprised, although I was surprised to hear the extent of Maharaji's sexual affairs and his alcohol problem. I didn't know about those things when I was a premie. Linda also told me this fascinating story. Apparently it had gotten around in the Guru Office that Linda was disgusted and leaving. Around that time she was invited to a party at 'the residence' in Miami. Maharaji as apparently drinking heavily (she said he drank really expensive Cognac (surprise, surprise)) and that he asked her to dance with him. She said that previously, as a gopi premie, something like that would have been a dream come true, but all she could feel while she was dancing with that he was this vacant being, who was trying to manipulate her into staying because he still needed her services. She said that was the thing that REALLY disgusted her, and confirmed her decision to get the hell out of there. Linda and I discussed the programming we had as premies. The fact that we turned over our rational brain, didn't allow doubts to enter, and how that all worked. She readily agreed that we had been duped. By this time Linda had married Albert Keegan, who she said was also an ex-premie (I don't know if he has also gone back or if he and Linda are still married). I remembered Albert as the janitor at the Broadripple offices. But something else does come to mind. Maybe Linda isn't a premie, maybe she is just a lawyer and has no scruples about taking fees from her former cult. Nah, that probably isn't possible. The cult would never trust a monmot with inside information, even if their is an attorney-client privilege. I should try to contact her, now that she has surfaced. She is somebody I liked a lot.

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Date: Wed, Aug 02, 2000 at 18:00:29 (GMT) From: Lurkex Email: None To: Joe Subject: To Joe Message:

Hi! I don't know if you know me or I you. Would you be willing to put a phone# or e-mail here and I'll contact you? I'll be offline Aug 7-20.

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Date: Wed, Aug 02, 2000 at 18:21:04 (GMT) From: Joe Email: joger02@aol.com To: Lurkex Subject: Sure..... Message:

I've included my email address. Joe

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Date: Wed, Aug 02, 2000 at 14:14:37 (GMT) From: Jim Email: None To: Joe Subject: Parallels to Bob Kirby's story Message:

When I lived in L.A. in the eighties I met Maharaji's former plumber and PAM, Bob Kirby. Bob and I soon discovered something of a kindred apostate spirit in each other and I had several long, interesting discussions with him about Maharaji at my place in Santa Monica. Funny, thinking back, I can just kind of picture it. Bob, super intense kind of guy, loved talking, good talker. We hashed it all out. It was fun. Anyway, Bob was quite disillusioned and even disgusted with Maharaji by then but the folks up the hill didn't quite get it. Indeed, Maharaji was still giving Bob his old suits -- tons of them (Bob's about Maharaj's height although he, Bob, is not a tub of lard, just short). Bob was even getting pestered to do some further plumbing work for the Hamster. Something about putting in or fixing Maharaji's jacuzzi or something. Bob told me he was enjoying billing them fair market value. Think about it.... So Maharaji has this party, might have been Marolyn's birthday or one of their anniversaries. Bob's expected to go and he does. But here's what he tells me. When Maharaji goes to cut the cake and give it to everyone (a little 'Bogus Prashad' anyone?), Bob declines. This kind of gesture is unthinkable up on Anancapa Drive. So Maharaji offers it again. Again Bob says no. Then the two of them get into an instant staring match. Everyone's watching, no one's talking .... frozen smiles everywhere. Nervous, nervous, nervous.... titter, titter -- quiet now! It's apparent after just a few seconds that Bob's essentially telling the Lord of the Universe to fuck off. No one knows what to do, least of all Maharaji. Bob, who really is a super intense fellow (I mean, you'd have to know him to know what I'm saying) never backs down. Indeed he simply wins. He's slapped the hand that feeds him. No make that he's slapped the hand that's been sneaking into his pockets for the last fifteen years. Everyone knew. I just wish I'd been there.

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Date: Wed, Aug 02, 2000 at 18:11:20 (GMT) From: Lurkex Email: None To: Jim Subject: Parallels to Bob Kirby's story Message:

I knew Bob and this story will get me through many a dark night.

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Date: Wed, Aug 02, 2000 at 17:49:07 (GMT) From: Joe Email: None To: Jim Subject: I don't get it Message:

Something about this story I don't understand. Maybe Bob just wasn't hungry, was on a diet, or doesn't like cake. Why is it such a big deal that he said no to a piece of fucking cake? Why was that such a big deal to Maharaji? Why did it make everyone so nervous?

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Date: Wed, Aug 02, 2000 at 18:56:19 (GMT) From: Joey Email: None To: Joe Subject: I get it... Message:

I JUST hope I can explain it to you :) M has talked about the importance and joy of giving, but he's also talked about the importance and joy of receiving - usually in the context of premies receiving what the master has to offer; such as his knowlege, his direction, the opportunities the master gives for participation and devotion. WHATEVER the master has to offer, it's important for a devotee to be able to receive. Even if it's a fucking piece of cake. And by failing to receive or accept the cake, Kirby was demonstrating to m and to the other 'true devotees' present, that there was something seiously wrong with his understanding. Because 'true devotees' accept WHATEVER the master has to offer. And for Bob Kirby to have that grace, that incredible opportunity of a lifetime to be invited to Maharaji's home, and to have Maharaji himself offer him a piece of cake - well it was if he was refusing the 'grace, the mercy and compassion, the beauty of Maharaji' himself. The fact that Bob may not have been hungry for the cake at that time and refused to accept it, could only signify in m's own mind and for the 'true devotees' present, that he (Bob) was no longer hungry for devotion. He was no longer a 'true premie'. And that IMO, is what the big deal was all about.

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Date: Wed, Aug 02, 2000 at 19:02:47 (GMT) From: Joe Email: None To: Joey Subject: Thanks, Joey, it just goes to show you how... Message:

much I was a part of all that, that sickening explanation actually makes sense. Yechh. I wonder, did Bob suffer rejection, derision, or did he get ulcers because of this horrible slight to his master?

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Date: Thurs, Aug 03, 2000 at 00:05:22 (GMT) From: Jim Email: None To: Joe Subject: Bob was filled with sinful pride after this Message:

You think it feels good to diss Maharaji here? Bob did it to his face -- and he was virtually giddy afterwards. Cheap high, that, sticking it to your former cult leader. Nothing like it, I'm sure.

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Date: Thurs, Aug 03, 2000 at 00:42:00 (GMT) From: Joe Email: None To: Jim Subject: So, I take it Bob is an ex-premie now...... Message:

And what else did he have to say about the Hamster?

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Date: Thurs, Aug 03, 2000 at 00:55:33 (GMT) From: Jim Email: None To: Joe Subject: Last time I heard Message:

Bob, took off for Wyoming or Montana or some such place just around the time I left L.A. and that'd be sometime around '90. What else did he have to say? Hm.... I always pumped him for stuff but there wasn't that much. I used to ask him what Maharaji 'was like' and he used to say that he was pretty standard fare for a wealthy, cut-off-from-the-world cult leader. Moody, rude and pompous. Can't recall any specific stories. Just that he'd grown to hate him.

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Date: Thurs, Aug 03, 2000 at 00:27:05 (GMT) From: Marianne Email: None To: Jim Subject: I would've been too Message:

Jim: Bob's adventure sounds like catching a cop in a big lie on the witness stand in a very important case... I loved the story! Marianne

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Date: Wed, Aug 02, 2000 at 19:33:30 (GMT) From: Joey Email: None To: Joe Subject: You're welcome Joe, and... Message:

Actually Joe, I was going to tell you that the fact that it initially DIDN'T make sense to you, was a positive sign for all us recent-exes that with more and more time out of the cult-we'll just be so far removed from it all, that nothing about it would make sense anymore. And that's kinda good, you know? I don't know how Bob reacted to his 'failure to be an accepting/receiving premie.' I suppose different people would react in different ways, and Bob had come to his own perspective of m and the cult at the time. But I can tell you this. When I phoned the Amtext office to tell them that I wouldn't be coming to the party of Oct.17/97, I became really ill that nite with a temperature of 103 degrees. Was laid up in bed and could hardly eat for close to three days. In my on mind then, he was the Lord, and I was refusing this 'incredible opportunity' the Lord was presenting to me. It was just that I also sensed, that what this opportunity actually represented , was an opportunity to be headfucked up close and personal by my Lord. I mean, he wouldn't do that to me-would he?? But it certainly felt like that in my gut. I just didn't want to find out by actually going there. In retrospect, I'm glad I fried in bed for a few days instead. Instead of being set-up for staying in the cult, this is what I had to do to set up my exit from it.

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Date: Wed, Aug 02, 2000 at 02:53:06 (GMT) From: Joey Email: None To: Joe Subject: The dance with m-that I declined Message:

Linda also told me this fascinating story. Apparently it had gotten around in the Guru Office that Linda was disgusted and leaving. Around that time she was invited to a party at 'the residence' in Miami. Maharaji as apparently drinking heavily (she said he drank really expensive Cognac (surprise, surprise)) and that he asked her to dance with him.... A fascinating story, indeed, Joe. Something similar happened to me, as it became clear that my relationship with the Amtext office was deteriorating to the point that if things weren't resolved soon, I could very well end up on my way out. There was to be a party at the residence on Oct 17, 97 for Amtext and m's wealthy premie financial contributors. A total of 300 people were invited and I being a premie Amtext buyer was one of them. When I asked Patsy Sanders at the amtext office what time the party would begin, Patsy told me 4PM for everybody else, but then she informed me that I was part of a 'small group' that was invited for 3PM. She said it in such as a way as to lead me to believe that I was in for some kind of special grace. I just imagined the 'carrot' of m attempting to sweet-talk me into letting go of all the differences and hurt that had built up by that time, and then the 'stick' of the glares of contempt if I failed to comply. Indeed by that time, it had become clear, that was the game the Amtext office was playing with me- a headfucking game of good cop/bad cop, carrot and stick. I didn't go to the party. Missed out on the oppotunity for that special dance with m:) Instead 7 months later I was no longer doing business with Amtext. 4 months after that I was at the Info-Cult office here in Montreal asking for help to extricate myself from the cult. And 3 and 1/2 months after that when I got my first computer, I appeared on the Ex-premie forum. I think you know the rest-for better or worse:) I have no regrets. Being out of the cult, is definitely better than being in it. And it keeps getting better all the time. Hey, I don't even have to worry about getting a fucking Smart Card!! :::))

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Date: Tues, Aug 01, 2000 at 16:02:14 (GMT) From: Jim Email: None To: Lurkex Subject: When exes become premies again... Message:

My guess is that in the past exes often left Maharaji on much shakier footing than today. The cyber-ex world has fostered a virtual (literal virtual?) explosion of true, if dirty, information on Maharaji which necessarily dwarfs the knowledge that of even the closest PAM. Sure, those guys knew about the personal 'lila' of the Hamster but how many knew anything of the Ride-my-pony guru lineages, etc. which, to me anyway, is the Hamster's single most damning exposure? None that I knew of. Moreover, leaving the cult used to be a very private, often confused and unsupported enterprise. A midnight, defeated stroll into the forest. But now, what with this site and the others, there's such a broad web of ex-cult support. We test our personal thoughts and experiences against each other and that helps us immeasurably. Helps us ground our true thoughts and opinions in something sturdier than the pre-dawn nightmares of desertion from the 'true master'. If this were Hesse's Journey to the East it would be the Hamster, not us, who was on trial before his fellow travellers. Current exes also have the benefit of watching Maharaji and his cult shamelessly dissemble and lie like there's no tomorrow trying to obliterate the past and all common sense. That reaction is golden in supporting new exes resolve that leaving the cult is not only intellectually unavoidable but morally too. Thank God for Maharaji and EV's websites. And thank all his little angels for ELK. And thank his very own mom for Satpal's site. Finally, there's science. I do think that our exploding knowledge about the brain and mind gives yet another significant plank for exes to abandon the cult ship on, at least for those exes so interested. I just get the impression that science is in a much better position to fight for our respect in this realm than it was even ten years ago, let alone 25. But then again, maybe that's just a reflection of my changing interest. Maybe a bit of both. But, for me anyway, that's been so important. So yes, even today an ex could go back. But he'd have to fight his swim upstream through a lot more bullshit than I could imagine taking on. In short, I don't think we're going to see too many exes ever go back. It'll happen. Or you'll see the kind of new age mental abandonment that Carol underwent last year. But anyone trying to 'go home' is going to have to buy some very strong ear plugs and a very dark blindfold to make it happen.

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Date: Wed, Aug 02, 2000 at 03:14:56 (GMT) From: Joe Email: None To: Jim Subject: Probably true, Jim Message:

It's interesting the number of people who have posted on the forum who were 'inactive' premies, maybe going to go back, maybe not, and then found the support of other exes on this forum and that made going back out of the question. I sure felt the 'alone in the dark' feeling when I left. There wasn't any way to connect up with other ex-premies, compare notes and get support. Now there is. I just wish Linda had some support and maybe she would be off doing something a little more productive with her life.

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Date: Tues, Aug 01, 2000 at 13:41:02 (GMT) From: G Email: None To: Joe Subject: Are these guys premies ? Message:

Steve Danner is the registered agent for Bristol Consulting Services, Inc. (Prouty, Randall). Linda Smith is the registered agent for many companies, most of which are probably not premie related.

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Date: Tues, Aug 01, 2000 at 16:56:53 (GMT) From: Joe Email: None To: G Subject: A Question G..... Message:

If you know, who was the woman who lived in the ashram in Bethesda, who got called down to work in the Office of Guru Maharaj Ji in 1979? She was attractive, had brown hair and was in charge of 'introductory programs' in the DC community. Do you know her name? That person would know a lot about what was going on in the inner world of Maharaji in the late 70s and 80s.

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Date: Wed, Aug 02, 2000 at 19:28:53 (GMT) From: newt gingrich Email: None To: Joe Subject: A Question G..... Message:

Joe-the woman you are thinking of lived with 2 other women in northern Va. I think her name was Claudia-she lived with an english woman named ruth, and kathy Bell, a stewardess. She was attractive, nice smile, and most of all, looked normal! I think Randy Prouty was responsible for getting her connected, as she was a fairly new premie, but seeemed to be given a chance to rise through the ranks fairly quickly because Randy thought she would look good and fit in well..

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Date: Wed, Aug 02, 2000 at 20:28:45 (GMT) From: Joe Email: None To: newt gingrich Subject: Thanks, Newt Message:

That was who I was thinking of, Claudia. Since she went to work for the 'Office of Guru Maharaj Ji,' I wondered where she is now and what she might have to say about it. Yes, Claudia was attractive, and that seemed to be the kind of people who tended to work around Maharaji. Do you know whatever happened to her? I also remember Kathy Bell, the stewardess. Another very nice person, whom I lived very much. So, newt, I was wondering. Now that you are out of office, I wondered if you have ever apologized for calling Hillary Clinton a bitch. Have you?

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Date: Thurs, Aug 03, 2000 at 02:38:06 (GMT) From: newtie newtie gingrinch Email: None To: Joe Subject: Thanks, Newt/no problem Joe! Message:

Claudia was very attractive, with a real nice all-american type personality and smile. I remember seeing her years later and she looked totally devastated...really terrible...very thin and sickly, like she had some sort of degenerative disease..not really sure what happened to her. Now about that hillary flap... You see Joe (I think you'll be able to understand this, being an ex-premie..), the truth is, I never said that! Some people back in the 70's said some things like that, but I never did. Even though you may have seen me on videotape saying that, it wasn't me...it may have been something that someone else said, but I'm just a humble teacher/master/bullshitter/hypocrit... So even though I did say that, I didn't say that! It's that simple...

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Date: Thurs, Aug 03, 2000 at 14:25:28 (GMT) From: Joe Email: None To: newtie newtie gingrinch Subject: Thanks, Newt Message:

That's awful to hear about Claudia. How long ago did you see her? Do you know where she is now? Thanks for cleaing up the flap about you calling Hillary a bitch. Of course your own mother told Connie Chung on national TV that you said it, but that was probably just because of her traditional concepts and that she was trying to make your lesbian sister the new Speaker of the House.

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Date: Wed, Aug 02, 2000 at 17:40:12 (GMT) From: G Email: None To: Joe Subject: I wouldn't know (nt) Message:

nt

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Date: Wed, Aug 02, 2000 at 18:22:18 (GMT) From: Joe Email: None To: G Subject: Sorry, G, got you mixed up with someone (nt) Message:

nt

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Date: Tues, Aug 01, 2000 at 14:27:48 (GMT) From: Joey Email: None To: G Subject: Thanks Joe and G... Message:

I guess that nails down Steve Danner. Trying to identify all the premie and m-related companies associated with the Amtext office. appreciate your help.

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Date: Tues, Aug 01, 2000 at 04:07:49 (GMT) From: Rob Email: None To: Joe Subject: Talking of premies Message:

Where are they all? Did I miss some mass exodus while I was offline? Couldn't be that all this current discussion about the IRS and charitable/church/exemption status has left them speechless? What happened to all the apologists and defenders of the faith? The bubble's going to burst soon, guys, better get meditating all night (like you did when Marolyn was in labor, remember?) It might take the IRS a year even to conduct their investigations, but just remember, they are like pitbulls once they get their teeth into something. (Remember that other famous racketeer they brought down, Al Capone!) Look on the bright side, maybe in the aftermath there'll be a class-action suit you can join in on, to retrieve some of your lifelong contributions to a non-charity!

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Date: Tues, Aug 01, 2000 at 08:18:53 (GMT) From: X Email: None To: Rob Subject: Talking of premies Message:

edited because of abuse FA

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Date: Tues, Aug 01, 2000 at 16:09:01 (GMT) From: Jim Email: None To: X Subject: Is that all you can say, X? Y not simply ........ Message:

bow your head in defeat if that's all you can do? Going down with the ship, X or are you a swimming kind of guy?

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Date: Wed, Aug 02, 2000 at 08:41:37 (GMT) From: X Email: None To: Jim Subject: Xtra Xplanation Message:

>bow your head in defeat if that's all you can do? Thats not the point at all. Not the posture taken by Xbeings. Oh yeah, premies need Rob advising them what to do. And now you too. What a joke. I get it. Xcept ... Defeat? There is no defeat. Keep your grip for the ride and hang on to your sense of humor. There might even be time for music. Can't you tell? Rob is a computer Robot in the tradition of Eliza. Clever stuff but lacking true spirit or value for life. Don't associate meaning with words alone. True meaning is felt. Xactly, X

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Date: Wed, Aug 02, 2000 at 21:05:10 (GMT) From: Rob the Robot Email: None To: X Subject: Xtra Xplanation Message:

Sorry, I'm not programmed to respond to idiotic cult invective. Or people who can only sign their name with an 'X'.

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Date: Wed, Aug 02, 2000 at 13:53:36 (GMT) From: Jim Email: None To: X Subject: If Rob's a robot, you're pure devo, bud Message:

Your 'communication' here must go in quotes. There's nowhere else to put it. I don't know what the fuck you're saying and I doubt you do either. Mind you, what can I expect from a guy who believes that meaning isn't in the words but must be 'felt'? Ugga bugga bigga mugga......

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Date: Fri, Aug 04, 2000 at 04:13:08 (GMT) From: X Email: None To: Jim Subject: cute! Message:

>Ugga bugga bigga mugga...... Is that what your girlfriend hopes for after the lecture? You're kinda cute!

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Date: Tues, Aug 01, 2000 at 13:14:36 (GMT) From: Salam Email: None To: X Subject: X, u defenitly need it..nt Message:

nt

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Date: Tues, Aug 01, 2000 at 04:56:13 (GMT) From: Zelda Email: None To: Rob Subject: To Rob Joey Ham C ect Message:

I for one am watching with interest as all this comes to light. What 'happens' after this interests me. It is interesting that online Jim an Marianne are scarce on this topic. I know Marianne advised not getting to specific on the forum- but it is good to see some real research happening.

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Date: Tues, Aug 01, 2000 at 07:33:00 (GMT) From: SB Email: None To: Zelda Subject: It was about somethoing else Message:

I think. It was about not disclosing plans about who wants to sue and do this or that.

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Date: Tues, Aug 01, 2000 at 00:35:40 (GMT) From: Rob Email: None To: Everyone Subject: 'Sleep shall neither night nor day Message:

Hang upon his penthouse lid. He shall live a man forbid. Weary se'nnights nine times nine Shall he dwindle, peak and pine; Though his bark cannot be lost, Yet it shall be tempest-tost. Macbeth, I, iii, 19 Sorry, cq got me started on Macbeth and I can't get him out of my head! Anyway, we are seeing a lot of contributions and focus on the US IRS tax laws as it relates to the 'Church of Elan Vital (NOT)'. It would be great if we could start to see similar attention focussed on all the 50 or so other 'EV's' listed in their Press Kit, along with similar Tax information from the respective governments. Don't they chop hands off in some of those countries?:) Could be fodder for more pages JM?

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Date: Tues, Aug 01, 2000 at 07:35:17 (GMT) From: Jean-Michel Email: None To: Rob Subject: Fodder for more pages! Service anybody? Message:

All this information reg EV's questionable status reg IRS, and all this info on EV's properties is excellent stuff IMO. That will answer all the questions premies never get an answer to!!! They're the one who're going to be glad!!!! Who's going to write the pages ? I can do the layout .... We can make it as a whole section, with a page introducing the whole issue, and one page on each topic .... something like that ! We have some excellent writers here! Who's going to volunteer?

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Date: Tues, Aug 01, 2000 at 01:33:26 (GMT) From: G Email: None To: Rob Subject: Canada Customs and Revenue Agency - CA Message:

See Canada Customs and Revenue Agency Taxes - Charities Charities - Online List Canadian Registered Charities - Detail page Charity name: ELAN VITAL BN/Registration number: 887331999 RR 0001 Correspondence Contact: SECRETARY-TREASURER Address: P.O. BOX 727 STATION B City: MONTREAL Province: QC Postal Code: H3B3K3 Country: CA Designation: Charitable Organization Auditing Charities What triggers a charity audit? ... to follow-up on possible non-compliance or complaints ... 'I spotted another one' G

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Date: Tues, Aug 01, 2000 at 01:10:44 (GMT) From: G Email: None To: Rob Subject: Charity Commission for England and Wales - EV Message:

See Charity Commission for England and Wales Results of searching for charity by the name 'Elan Vital': --------------------------------------------------------- View Main Charity Details - ELAN VITAL Registered Number: 1016818 Subsidiary Number: 0 Other Name(s): n/a Correspondent Details: JAMES W SHAW 3 THE DRIVE HOVE EAST SUSSEX BN3 3JE 01273 747179 Objects: TO ADVANCE THE EDUCATION IN THE UNDERSTANDING AND REALISATION OF HUMAN POTENTIAL THROUGH SELF-KNOWLEDGE BASED UPON THE TEACHINGS OF PREM PAL SINGH RAWAT K/A MAHARAJI. Area Of Benefit: NOT DEFINED Registration Date: 28/01/1993 Governing Document: TRUST DEED DATED 22ND OCTOBER 1991. Area(s) Of Operation: NATIONAL From the FAQ page: ----------------- Obtaining a copy of a registered charity's accounts or governing document. ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Q: How do I obtain a copy of a registered charity's accounts or governing document? A: Copies of a registered charity’s accounts or governing document held on our Central Register of Charities are available to the public. However, please bear in mind that only charities with a gross income or total expenditure over £10,000 in the financial year in question are required to send accounts to the Commission, so you may need to contact the charity directly. You can contact the charity correspondent direct for the most recent accounts. Charity correspondent details are available on our Register of Charities Page. A charity is entitled to charge for photocopying/postage. If you wish to obtain accounts/governing documents of a registered charity from us please telephone our switchboard 0870 333 0123 and ask for our Central Register. There is a nominal charge for photocopying and postage. You can also email the Central Register Manager who is Joanne Solomon: jsolomon@charity-commission.gov.uk. for further information or assistance. How to complain about a particular charity. ------------------------------------------ Q: I want to complain about a particular charity. What should I do? A: In the first instance please read our publication: Inquiries into Charities which is available on our publications page on this website. This publication explains how to alert us about your concerns, which matters we can and cannot take up and what action we will take --- Trainspotter G

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Date: Wed, Aug 02, 2000 at 12:56:11 (GMT) From: Sir Dave Email: None To: G Subject: Complaining to England/Wales Charity Commission Message:

It's all layed out for you - the DLM and then Elan Vital charity scams. Also, how to complain. Click here for Elan Vital's questionable charity status The more people complain, the more these guys will sit up and take notice.

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Date: Wed, Aug 02, 2000 at 13:12:46 (GMT) From: Jean-Michel Email: None To: Sir Dave Subject: Complaining to US authorities also, Dave? Message:

Hi Dave !! Would you also do that for EV Inc.'s status (in the US) ? I'll be glad to include a full documented informative page on EPO.

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Date: Wed, Aug 02, 2000 at 19:08:40 (GMT) From: Sir Dave Email: sirdavid12@hotmail.com To: Jean-Michel Subject: Complaining to US authorities also, Dave? Message:

I'm not up to scratch on The USA details but I will of course put a link (and commentary) to any information you can give about the USA Elan Vital non-profit scam.

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Date: Thurs, Aug 03, 2000 at 13:50:45 (GMT) From: Jean-Michel Email: None To: Sir Dave Subject: And what about the Swiss Cottage ownership? Message:

I'm sure this has already been posted here. I'll be glad to add it to the new page ....

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Date: Tues, Aug 01, 2000 at 03:15:15 (GMT) From: G Email: None To: all Subject: Swiss Govt Message:

Swiss Government Swiss Federal Tax Administration Federal Finance Administration

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Date: Tues, Aug 01, 2000 at 02:03:06 (GMT) From: G Email: None To: all Subject: Australia, other links Message:

See Australian Commonwealth Government Australian Taxation Office Where can I find additional information about charities? (Elan Vital is not listed at the 'Australian Charities' link)

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Date: Wed, Aug 02, 2000 at 18:03:09 (GMT) From: Salam Email: None To: G Subject: Australia, other links Message:

G. I have come across a lot of info regarding Ivory's Rock, things like, annual reports since 1996, Notification of Allotment of shares, notification of change to officeholders, and stuff like that, cost me some big bucks. I am trying to get a servay map of Amaroo. I have some friends in a real estate and they can dig up info like how much the site was sold for, what name is the deed and more stuff like that, I have to scan all the info, would you be interested in it or should I just post it here, seeing that Sir Les Patterson Simpson(see thread below)recons that it is already public, therefore usless, therefore a waste of time, therefore it is really pointless to do anything with it except for giving gumi a bad night sleep. I hope this pissing you of EV.

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Date: Fri, Aug 04, 2000 at 02:41:00 (GMT) From: G Email: None To: Salam Subject: EV Australia Message:

EV states on their Australian site that 'Elan Vital Incorporated (Australia) is a non-profit association'. So no, this information is far from useless. They mention Elan Vital Productions, Elan Vital Australia. Phone: (07) 3379 9530 Fax: (07) 3379 9490 Email: elan@gil.com.au (gil is an ISP called Global Info-Links, gil.com.au/)

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Date: Wed, Aug 02, 2000 at 18:56:30 (GMT) From: G Email: None To: Salam Subject: any opinions from the lawyers? Message:

I'd say just post it, but if you have images, you'll need a place on the internet to put them and then link to them. Maybe if you email any possible images to JM, he could put them in a directory at this site. But I'm not in a position to volunteer him for this service, nor can I give him agya. To do that, first I'd have to convince him that I - as Guru G - was his Master. Do the lawyers here have any opinions about posting information? When we come across information, should we just post it, or is there any reason to delay posting? Regarding Les's opinion about it being a waste of time, well, that's assuming that public records are easily accessed and that premies investigate what they're into so that they can be well informed.

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Date: Tues, Aug 01, 2000 at 03:09:33 (GMT) From: Rob Email: None To: G Subject: Thanks G Message:

Curious to see if each of the countries you listed here have filing requirements similar to Form 990 - in other words, are there actual accounts available (I've seen the Canadian ones posted) for say UK & Australia, and is Elan Vital registered as a church there also? Anyone know what International guidelines are in place for interaction between all these 'independant' entities? For example, how do US donations for Amaroo legally find their way over to Australia and the Ivory Rock Center? Who pays gummy bear's 'documented expenses' on world tours? Can an EV in one country send funds to an EV in another? Where is the documentation, particularly from countries which currently have to file that information? The picture is much much bigger than I think most folk realize.

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Date: Tues, Aug 01, 2000 at 09:32:02 (GMT) From: Salam Email: None To: Rob Subject: Australain tax laes regarding charities. Message:

I have some info on tax laws regarding charities and non-profit organization in Australa, they are few pages, might take me a day or two to type it in. Salam

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Date: Mon, Jul 31, 2000 at 23:25:12 (GMT) From: G Email: None To: Everyone Subject: California Public Records Act Message:

http://www.cfac.org/Law/CPRA/Text/cpra_text.html#Heading9 In case anyone is interested, here's a link to a web page describing the    California Public Records Act including   How to Request Access to Information

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Date: Mon, Jul 31, 2000 at 23:35:54 (GMT) From: G Email: None To: all Subject: Corporate Records Order Form (CA) Message:

Another link: Corporate Records Order Form (for California)

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Date: Mon, Jul 31, 2000 at 20:57:46 (GMT) From: Stonor Email: None To: Everyone Subject: Why am I having difficulties posting? Message:

Don't know why, but usually a socket is not connected and I can't post, although sometimes I can. It just sits and then tells me to try again. Anyone have any ideas? (sorry SB, I've been trying!)

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Date: Wed, Aug 02, 2000 at 13:03:20 (GMT) From: Stonor Email: None To: anyone Subject: Descriptions of posting problem and steps taken... Message:

All of a sudden, at no forum of the 4 I've tried in the last 24 hours, can I post more than a short paragraph. After a couple of minutes spinning its gears, it says something about network socket not connected, try again. It is trying to make me crazy, but I won't let it. I have an unlimited highspeed connection - this is happening when I am clicking around no problem. At least there is no problem with email. I apologize again. I've spoken to 4 or 5 techies now, and we still can't figure it out. Same problem with both Netscape and Explorer. The last option is to custom de- and re-install both browsers, which Apple tech is willing to talk me through. I'm waiting to hear back from higher technical support from my server first - should be today. (better be!) Will let the curious know how it is solved. (And thanks for taking a shot at X for me, SB, but lets igore 'it' if 'it' posts anymore of 'its' Ignorance.) Stonor

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Date: Fri, Aug 04, 2000 at 04:29:14 (GMT) From: X Email: None To: Stonor Subject: try the ping test Message:

A socket problem doesn't have to do with the browser. It is below that at the TCP level. A socket is a TCP session Could be a loose connection on your cable. Try the commond ping www.ex-premie.org -l 4096 like this: D:\>ping www.ex-premie.org -l 4096 Pinging www.ex-premie.org [216.205.113.5] with 4096 bytes of data: Reply from 216.205.113.5: bytes=4096 time=261ms TTL=238 Reply from 216.205.113.5: bytes=4096 time=260ms TTL=238 Reply from 216.205.113.5: bytes=4096 time=261ms TTL=238 Reply from 216.205.113.5: bytes=4096 time=260ms TTL=238 If you see something different you have a connectivity problem.

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Date: Fri, Aug 04, 2000 at 15:25:25 (GMT) From: Stonor Email: None To: X Subject: Huh? Message:

Thanks for your help, I think, X, but didn't you notice that I have solved my problem (read below) and it was not 'connectivity', it was the highspeed software.

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Date: Fri, Aug 04, 2000 at 18:24:04 (GMT) From: X Email: None To: Stonor Subject: Huh? Message:

>but didn't you notice that I have solved my problem (read below) and it was not 'connectivity', it was the highspeed software. 'highspeed software' is connectivity software. It operates even below the TCP level to provide the low level transfer of packets. Hence 'connectivity' software. The physical cable is even below that in the connectivity layer. Katie did say to be nice. Now, back to the big debate ... X

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Date: Wed, Aug 02, 2000 at 16:46:17 (GMT) From: Katie Email: None To: Stonor Subject: Descriptions of posting problem and steps taken... Message:

Hi Stonor - I have had that problem with Netscape and this forum a couple of times, but your problem sounds far more extensive. I do not think it has anything to do with the forum software itself - it is something on your computer, especially as it's doing it on all these other forums. I think the idea about re-installing your browsers sounds really good - sounds like something got screwed up when they installed the high-speed line (I recently tried to download a update to a virus program and it shut down all my e-mail. Luckily, I live with Brian - what a mess! It took him an hour to straighten it out, and it wasn't even anything I did - it was the program.) Anyway, when I have had the problem, I just save the post and re-load the forum (make sure it's not a cached version). Sometimes my posts appear ANYWAY when I get that 'socket disconnect' message, and sometimes they don't. The second or third time I post, it's usually OK. The more complicated that software gets, the more chance of one program interacting adversely with another. My BIGGEST problem has been Outlook Express crashing Windows! (Microsoft not compatible with Microsoft - go figure.) Take care - Love, Katie

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Date: Wed, Aug 02, 2000 at 18:34:42 (GMT) From: Stonor Email: None To: Katie Subject: Descriptions of posting problem and steps taken... Message:

Hi Katie, I just emailed the same idea about the high speed installation to my server a couple of hours ago. No reply yet. Because I've been so busy lately I haven't posted much or of much length, since the installation of high speed, except one to Monmot the same day. About re-loading etc.- I tried that theory a while ago - no change. You see, this is posting no problem (just looked at preview) but if it's a little longer, no go! Outlook Express crashing Windows?!!! Why am I not totally surprised? Thanks for your suggestions and support, Stonor

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Date: Thurs, Aug 03, 2000 at 02:18:02 (GMT) From: Stonor Email: None To: anyone Subject: SOLUTION to posting problem and steps taken... Message:

It was a problem with the high speed software. I have new software now that a very kind techie at my server helped me to get properly installed. And it only took a few days of constant turning over of stones (there's a lot of dead weight in some techie worlds)! Love, and thanks for your patience and concern. Stonor

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Date: Tues, Aug 01, 2000 at 08:21:43 (GMT) From: X Email: None To: Stonor Subject: Why am I having difficulties posting? Message:

>Anyone have any ideas? Try a different handle.

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Date: Tues, Aug 01, 2000 at 14:07:45 (GMT) From: Stonor Email: None To: X Subject: You must be new here, and . . . Message:

It's a family name, and around here you don't 'change' your handle, do YOU?

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Date: Wed, Aug 02, 2000 at 08:59:48 (GMT) From: X Email: None To: Stonor Subject: yes Message:

Yes, new here but not there. I haven't had socket problems on this forum. The software likes me and my machine. You just need to think clearly. Be an example. Learn more socket theory. Try Comer. Turn to a network analyzer or get help from Roger. But get help! Give Jim a call for support. His connectivity is fabulous. Give up on that Atari box you are using. Get a DSL connection for Gods sake. Always have options.

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Date: Wed, Aug 02, 2000 at 16:48:12 (GMT) From: Katie Email: None To: X Subject: No need to be rude Message:

Hey, X, be polite to Stonor! What has she ever done to you?

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Date: Wed, Aug 02, 2000 at 10:53:23 (GMT) From: SB Email: None To: X Subject: Why don't you get lost! Message:

Stupid cult memebr, sucker of dirty smelly feet!! Take a good look at yourself, lame being. Sad to see what the effects of knowledge are... One, it makes people be stupid like you!!

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Date: Mon, Jul 31, 2000 at 21:02:22 (GMT) From: Stonor Email: None To: Stonor Subject: Tried to post SB again right after . . . Message:

Tried to post SB again right after . . . same thing: network error, socket not connected, try connecting again. Wonder if this will post? Stonor

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