Forum V: Archive
Compiled: Mon, Aug 07, 2000 at 11:09:47 (GMT)
From: Jul 25, 2000 To: Aug 04, 2000 Page: 4 Of: 5


Jean-Michel -:- Rawat's upcoming tour in Europe -:- Fri, Jul 28, 2000 at 07:36:15 (GMT)
__ la-ex -:- Rawat's upcoming tour in Europe -:- Fri, Jul 28, 2000 at 17:46:37 (GMT)
__ Sir Dave -:- Rawat's upcoming tour in Europe -:- Fri, Jul 28, 2000 at 10:58:08 (GMT)
__ __ Lords don't drive- they f -:- ly. (Leeds Bradford a/port) (NT) -:- Sun, Jul 30, 2000 at 07:44:17 (GMT)
__ SB -:- and your wallets!! -:- Fri, Jul 28, 2000 at 08:57:28 (GMT)

Jim -:- Am I nitpicking? Really? Am I just a nitpicker? -:- Fri, Jul 28, 2000 at 05:15:51 (GMT)
__ ham -:- This is getting too cosmic for me! -:- Fri, Jul 28, 2000 at 06:56:14 (GMT)
__ Zelda the Melba -:- Am I nitpicking? Really? Am I just a nitpicker? -:- Fri, Jul 28, 2000 at 06:13:34 (GMT)

G -:- Prem P. Rawat and Rive T. McDow's watch patent -:- Fri, Jul 28, 2000 at 03:16:27 (GMT)
__ bill -:- Prem P. Rawat and Rive T. McDow's watch patent -:- Fri, Jul 28, 2000 at 12:10:29 (GMT)
__ __ SB -:- Prem P. Rawat and Rive T. McDow's watch patent -:- Wed, Aug 02, 2000 at 11:05:33 (GMT)
__ __ Pauline Premie -:- My Master Is Brilliant.... -:- Fri, Jul 28, 2000 at 17:02:12 (GMT)
__ Malibu Mole -:- Rives McDow -:- Fri, Jul 28, 2000 at 08:46:31 (GMT)
__ __ Selene -:- Don Beaner oh so that is where he ended up -:- Fri, Jul 28, 2000 at 19:53:06 (GMT)
__ __ Joe -:- Rives McDow/Don Boener -:- Fri, Jul 28, 2000 at 17:10:17 (GMT)
__ __ __ Selene -:- Don Boener - oops *that* isn't how I knew him -:- Fri, Jul 28, 2000 at 19:55:22 (GMT)

Joey -:- Hey, who's mad ? :) -:- Thurs, Jul 27, 2000 at 23:28:32 (GMT)
__ bill -:- now for the rebirth of DUO -:- Fri, Jul 28, 2000 at 01:48:13 (GMT)
__ __ SB -:- I bet they already have -:- Mon, Jul 31, 2000 at 06:19:57 (GMT)
__ __ ham -:- Vital Ellen - the ideal co. for social services -:- Fri, Jul 28, 2000 at 06:09:54 (GMT)
__ __ __ Selene -:- I've heard this before right here in the US ham -:- Fri, Jul 28, 2000 at 16:50:57 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ ham -:- There's been some wicked times too -:- Sat, Jul 29, 2000 at 01:12:42 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Selene -:- There HAVE been some wicked times -:- Sat, Jul 29, 2000 at 03:05:17 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ ham -:- No I ain't having that -:- Sat, Jul 29, 2000 at 03:24:59 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Selene -:- watch out for those Irish girls -:- Sat, Jul 29, 2000 at 03:37:33 (GMT)
__ __ __ G -:- it's the same in the USA -:- Fri, Jul 28, 2000 at 15:33:23 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Joe -:- You are so right, G -:- Fri, Jul 28, 2000 at 17:32:20 (GMT)
__ __ __ Sir Dave -:- Vital Ellen - the ideal co. for social services -:- Fri, Jul 28, 2000 at 11:27:29 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ bill -:- Vital Ellen - the ideal co. for social services -:- Fri, Jul 28, 2000 at 12:20:18 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ ham -:- If only it was that simple, Bill and Sir D, BUT -:- Fri, Jul 28, 2000 at 13:28:24 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Katie -:- Hamzen, my sympathy and respect. -:- Fri, Jul 28, 2000 at 16:16:47 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ ham -:- Can you imagine Elan Vital running some of it -:- Fri, Jul 28, 2000 at 17:21:28 (GMT)

Pauline Premie -:- My Poem -:- Thurs, Jul 27, 2000 at 22:21:10 (GMT)
__ Loaf -:- FA - this might be an imposter -:- Fri, Jul 28, 2000 at 04:30:20 (GMT)
__ __ ham -:- Don't be sad Loaf -:- Fri, Jul 28, 2000 at 07:06:14 (GMT)
__ Jim -:- That is SO beautiful! (nt) -:- Fri, Jul 28, 2000 at 00:07:54 (GMT)

cq -:- Non-profit Cyber-Accountability: help! -:- Thurs, Jul 27, 2000 at 19:21:35 (GMT)
__ Joe -:- The Registry of Caritable Trusts -- Call Them -:- Thurs, Jul 27, 2000 at 20:14:07 (GMT)
__ Joey -:- Great find cq, already in my favorites... -:- Thurs, Jul 27, 2000 at 19:54:30 (GMT)

Eyecatcher -:- Here's an Interesting Site -:- Thurs, Jul 27, 2000 at 16:10:12 (GMT)
__ Elaine -:- Thank you very much. nt -:- Sat, Jul 29, 2000 at 00:23:22 (GMT)
__ bill -:- as if.. -:- Fri, Jul 28, 2000 at 01:55:08 (GMT)
__ cq -:- Here's an Interesting Site -:- Thurs, Jul 27, 2000 at 18:46:08 (GMT)
__ Jim -:- Do you think they're premies? -:- Thurs, Jul 27, 2000 at 16:18:10 (GMT)
__ __ Eyecatcher -:- Do you think they're premies? -:- Thurs, Jul 27, 2000 at 16:24:40 (GMT)
__ __ __ cq -:- Do you think they're anything OTHER than premies? -:- Thurs, Jul 27, 2000 at 18:25:59 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ G -:- Whois search on hraipress -:- Thurs, Jul 27, 2000 at 19:10:42 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ cq -:- They sound like good people, G, why the search? nt -:- Thurs, Jul 27, 2000 at 19:15:37 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ G -:- In case anyone wondered who the registrant was -:- Thurs, Jul 27, 2000 at 19:23:11 (GMT)
__ __ __ RobertB -:- There's a suggestion form at this site - -:- Thurs, Jul 27, 2000 at 17:30:03 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ jondon -:- M's poetry -:- Thurs, Jul 27, 2000 at 17:43:51 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ G -:- Here's some 'better' poetry -:- Thurs, Jul 27, 2000 at 18:56:55 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ G -:- correction to link -:- Thurs, Jul 27, 2000 at 22:29:00 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Old Scottish Poet -:- Me favorite Scottish Poem -:- Thurs, Jul 27, 2000 at 23:56:04 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Street Poet -:- Here's some 'better' poetry -:- Thurs, Jul 27, 2000 at 20:14:47 (GMT)

Jim -:- Can anyone reach EV? -:- Thurs, Jul 27, 2000 at 16:06:35 (GMT)
__ Ben Lurking -:- Can anyone reach EV? -:- Fri, Jul 28, 2000 at 17:18:42 (GMT)
__ __ Jim -:- Thanks for trying anyway, Ben (nt) -:- Fri, Jul 28, 2000 at 22:47:24 (GMT)
__ __ __ Ben Lurking -:- Thanks for trying anyway, Ben (nt) -:- Sat, Jul 29, 2000 at 00:37:58 (GMT)
__ Jim -:- ***10 DOLLAR REWARD FOR CONTACTING EV *** -:- Fri, Jul 28, 2000 at 02:43:52 (GMT)
__ __ Ben Lurking -:- ***10 DOLLAR REWARD FOR CONTACTING EV *** -:- Sat, Jul 29, 2000 at 00:49:20 (GMT)
__ __ __ Jim -:- ***10 DOLLAR REWARD FOR CONTACTING EV *** -:- Sat, Jul 29, 2000 at 01:09:21 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Ben Lurking -:- ***10 DOLLAR REWARD FOR CONTACTING EV *** -:- Sat, Jul 29, 2000 at 02:12:16 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Jim -:- ***10 DOLLAR REWARD FOR CONTACTING EV *** -:- Sat, Jul 29, 2000 at 02:16:26 (GMT)
__ __ SB -:- Have you tried Registered Mail? -:- Fri, Jul 28, 2000 at 09:30:51 (GMT)
__ Jim -:- Back one reading group for you, Ben -:- Fri, Jul 28, 2000 at 01:46:34 (GMT)
__ __ Ben Lurking -:- Back one reading group for you, Ben -:- Fri, Jul 28, 2000 at 04:07:12 (GMT)
__ SB -:- I did. No answer for me either. nt -:- Thurs, Jul 27, 2000 at 21:22:34 (GMT)
__ EV -:- Jim ---caller ID ......Duuuuhhh!! NT -:- Thurs, Jul 27, 2000 at 20:21:13 (GMT)
__ __ Ben Lurking -:- Jim ---caller ID ......Duuuuhhh!! NT -:- Fri, Jul 28, 2000 at 01:20:06 (GMT)
__ __ __ Ben Lurking -:- Jim ---caller ID ......Duuuuhhh!! NT -:- Fri, Jul 28, 2000 at 01:21:57 (GMT)
__ Joe -:- Good job, Jim. Did you request a picture? (NT) -:- Thurs, Jul 27, 2000 at 16:31:29 (GMT)
__ P-man -:- fucking hysterical (nt) -:- Thurs, Jul 27, 2000 at 16:11:10 (GMT)
__ __ Salam -:- You cracking me up...help can't stop laughing!..nt -:- Fri, Jul 28, 2000 at 12:50:22 (GMT)

Salam -:- 15,000,000 and counting -:- Thurs, Jul 27, 2000 at 11:36:59 (GMT)
__ hamzen -:- Greater than 400 million dollars for techno toys? -:- Thurs, Jul 27, 2000 at 15:15:02 (GMT)
__ bill -:- 15,000,000 and counting -:- Thurs, Jul 27, 2000 at 11:46:41 (GMT)
__ __ Salam -:- How much Amaroo cost? -:- Fri, Jul 28, 2000 at 01:31:25 (GMT)
__ __ __ G -:- How much Amaroo cost? -:- Sat, Jul 29, 2000 at 04:07:30 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Salam -:- G. you are king, see if I can ring the council -:- Sat, Jul 29, 2000 at 04:29:25 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ G -:- sounds good (nt) -:- Sat, Jul 29, 2000 at 04:53:02 (GMT)

Joe -:- Suggestion re DLM/EV Papers -:- Thurs, Jul 27, 2000 at 01:10:53 (GMT)
__ Sir Dave -:- More eye catching links -:- Thurs, Jul 27, 2000 at 09:27:07 (GMT)
__ __ Joey -:- I agree, Sir D, and good point about links (nt) -:- Thurs, Jul 27, 2000 at 23:38:29 (GMT)
__ AJW -:- 'Forgotten Secrets of the Crazy Guru Cult' (nt) -:- Thurs, Jul 27, 2000 at 07:44:52 (GMT)
__ __ Salam -:- 'How to get shaffted by a Guru in 7 Days'..nt -:- Fri, Jul 28, 2000 at 01:35:53 (GMT)
__ __ Jean-Michel -:- No tea ..... only wine? -:- Thurs, Jul 27, 2000 at 09:08:06 (GMT)
__ __ __ AJW -:- No tea ..... only wine? -:- Thurs, Jul 27, 2000 at 12:03:32 (GMT)
__ Jim -:- How about 'Who WAS Guru Maharaj Ji?' -:- Thurs, Jul 27, 2000 at 01:19:46 (GMT)
__ __ Joe -:- How About Just 'Who Was Maharaji?' -:- Thurs, Jul 27, 2000 at 16:24:46 (GMT)
__ __ __ AJW -:- Before and After. -:- Thurs, Jul 27, 2000 at 16:38:52 (GMT)
__ __ la-ex -:- How about 'Who WAS Guru Maharaj Ji?' -:- Thurs, Jul 27, 2000 at 02:59:24 (GMT)
__ __ __ bill -:- How about 'Who WAS Guru Maharaj Ji?' -:- Thurs, Jul 27, 2000 at 11:33:22 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Jean-Michel -:- Which video? -:- Thurs, Jul 27, 2000 at 13:18:40 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ bill -:- Which video? -:- Thurs, Jul 27, 2000 at 15:42:00 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Joe -:- Rawat in Amaroo -:- Thurs, Jul 27, 2000 at 16:59:48 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ bill -:- Rawat in Amaroo -:- Fri, Jul 28, 2000 at 01:52:14 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Zelda -:- Rawat in Amaroo -video of blonde -:- Fri, Jul 28, 2000 at 21:42:21 (GMT)
__ __ Salam -:- As Mel Said in a previous thread, it is only a -:- Thurs, Jul 27, 2000 at 02:31:21 (GMT)
__ __ __ Zelda -:- As Mel Said in a previous thread, it is only a -:- Thurs, Jul 27, 2000 at 12:36:53 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ salam -:- As Mel Said in a previous thread, it is only a -:- Fri, Jul 28, 2000 at 11:51:34 (GMT)

Joe -:- Elan Vital Is a Church but not A Religion (Huh?) -:- Wed, Jul 26, 2000 at 21:11:21 (GMT)
__ cq -:- Elan Vital Is a Church but not A Religion (Huh?) -:- Thurs, Jul 27, 2000 at 17:31:32 (GMT)
__ Joey -:- Elan Vital Is a Church but not A Religion (Huh?) -:- Thurs, Jul 27, 2000 at 01:18:46 (GMT)
__ __ cq -:- Excellent contact there, Joey. But I thought ... -:- Thurs, Jul 27, 2000 at 17:47:05 (GMT)
__ __ __ Joey -:- Excellent contact there, Joey. But I thought ... -:- Thurs, Jul 27, 2000 at 18:26:24 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ cq -:- Excellent contact there, Joey. But I thought ... -:- Thurs, Jul 27, 2000 at 18:54:06 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Joey -:- Excellent contact there, Joey. But I thought ... -:- Thurs, Jul 27, 2000 at 19:33:10 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Joey -:- ps-cq -:- Thurs, Jul 27, 2000 at 18:40:01 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ cq -:- You got a contact? Go for it! Ditto everyone (nt) -:- Thurs, Jul 27, 2000 at 18:55:51 (GMT)
__ __ Eyecatcher -:- Doing the same the as The CHURCH of Scientology (n -:- Thurs, Jul 27, 2000 at 16:12:54 (GMT)
__ __ Selene -:- RE: the link to Guidestar -:- Thurs, Jul 27, 2000 at 04:58:59 (GMT)
__ __ __ Joe -:- I think I know the answer -:- Thurs, Jul 27, 2000 at 16:29:22 (GMT)
__ __ __ Joey -:- RE: the link to Guidestar -:- Thurs, Jul 27, 2000 at 05:54:18 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ bill -:- RE: the link to Guidestar -:- Thurs, Jul 27, 2000 at 11:38:04 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ G -:- Info on Elan Vital from IRS web site -:- Fri, Jul 28, 2000 at 01:16:42 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ sb -:- FUCKING SICKENING!!! -:- Fri, Jul 28, 2000 at 09:51:55 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Joey -:- Way to go, G !! -:- Fri, Jul 28, 2000 at 02:32:44 (GMT)
__ __ bill -:- If elan and rawat claim NOT to be a religion as -:- Thurs, Jul 27, 2000 at 03:11:38 (GMT)
__ Ben Lurking -:- Elan Vital Is a Church but not A Religion (Huh?) -:- Wed, Jul 26, 2000 at 23:47:16 (GMT)
__ __ Joe -:- Elan Vital Is a Church but not A Religion (Huh?) -:- Thurs, Jul 27, 2000 at 00:19:25 (GMT)
__ __ __ Salam -:- WAHADAMAR Inc -:- Thurs, Jul 27, 2000 at 11:45:28 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ bill -:- WAHADAMAR Inc -:- Thurs, Jul 27, 2000 at 11:57:58 (GMT)
__ Joe -:- Check it out at www.guidestar.org (nt) -:- Wed, Jul 26, 2000 at 21:13:01 (GMT)
__ __ Joe -:- Cult Financial Disclosures -:- Wed, Jul 26, 2000 at 21:56:06 (GMT)
__ __ __ Joey -:- I think your estimate is just about spot on, Joe -:- Thurs, Jul 27, 2000 at 05:02:31 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Joey -:- my revised estimate estimate for EV -U.S. -:- Thurs, Jul 27, 2000 at 20:22:44 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Katie -:- Other 'givers' -:- Fri, Jul 28, 2000 at 15:54:50 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Lakota -:- Other 'givers' -:- Fri, Jul 28, 2000 at 18:39:38 (GMT)
__ __ __ bill -:- Cult Financial Disclosures -:- Thurs, Jul 27, 2000 at 03:14:29 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Salam -:- Cult Financial Disclosures -:- Thurs, Jul 27, 2000 at 10:44:45 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Jean-Michel -:- Who's going to paint a good picture? -:- Thurs, Jul 27, 2000 at 13:51:42 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Joe -:- Excellent ideal, JM -:- Mon, Jul 31, 2000 at 13:53:16 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ G -:- Wadi Sue and Serenity -:- Mon, Jul 31, 2000 at 00:23:05 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Joe -:- Wadi Sue and Serenity -:- Mon, Jul 31, 2000 at 17:32:09 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ SB -:- He uses his yatch to squeeze the wealthy premies.. -:- Mon, Jul 31, 2000 at 19:57:38 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ bill -:- Who's going to paint a good picture? -:- Thurs, Jul 27, 2000 at 15:43:43 (GMT)

cq -:- Question for all you technical wizards out there -:- Wed, Jul 26, 2000 at 17:29:08 (GMT)
__ Sir Dave -:- Question for all you technical wizards out there -:- Wed, Jul 26, 2000 at 23:45:46 (GMT)
__ __ cq -:- Sounds like that could be v.useful for some, Sir D -:- Thurs, Jul 27, 2000 at 17:41:25 (GMT)
__ __ __ G -:- Netscape, IE -:- Sun, Jul 30, 2000 at 16:12:19 (GMT)
__ __ ham -:- I'm on my knees, begging you please, help needed -:- Thurs, Jul 27, 2000 at 17:39:05 (GMT)
__ __ __ Sir Dave -:- I'm on my knees, begging you please, help needed -:- Fri, Jul 28, 2000 at 09:54:51 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Jethro -:- Almost right SirDave -:- Fri, Jul 28, 2000 at 16:10:19 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ ham -:- Turn on Your Lovelight/Grateful Dead -:- Fri, Jul 28, 2000 at 17:32:52 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ G -:- Turn on Your Lovelight info -:- Sun, Jul 30, 2000 at 16:27:23 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ ham -:- Ha, you ole trainspotter you, -:- Sun, Jul 30, 2000 at 22:07:12 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ G -:- Who, me? -:- Mon, Jul 31, 2000 at 00:14:13 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ ham -:- Who, me? -:- Mon, Jul 31, 2000 at 05:43:43 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ G -:- Who, me? -:- Mon, Jul 31, 2000 at 22:02:51 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Katie -:- Turn on Your Lovelight/Grateful Dead -:- Fri, Jul 28, 2000 at 22:20:04 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ ham -:- Haven't got a clue why, but he did an excellent -:- Sat, Jul 29, 2000 at 02:12:43 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Katie -:- High Fidelity -:- Sat, Jul 29, 2000 at 13:12:31 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ G -:- Easy Wind lyrics -:- Sun, Jul 30, 2000 at 16:46:09 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ ham -:- Were you into them big time too? -:- Sun, Jul 30, 2000 at 22:16:05 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ G -:- not big time -:- Sun, Jul 30, 2000 at 23:17:05 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ ham -:- Remember that rumour that they'd got into gm -:- Mon, Jul 31, 2000 at 05:54:34 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ G -:- Workingman's Dead -:- Mon, Jul 31, 2000 at 22:08:52 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ ham -:- Nick Hornby and the middle class high lit brigade -:- Sun, Jul 30, 2000 at 08:25:55 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Katie -:- Nick Hornby and the middle class high lit brigade -:- Sun, Jul 30, 2000 at 17:31:10 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ ham -:- The middle class high lit brigade, -:- Sun, Jul 30, 2000 at 21:51:37 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Jim -:- Garcia was my first 'guru' -:- Sat, Jul 29, 2000 at 02:58:05 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ ham -:- Mr Heller you spook me sometimes! -:- Sat, Jul 29, 2000 at 04:13:43 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ ham -:- and yah, I admit it, Mike Cobb is a trainspotter, -:- Sat, Jul 29, 2000 at 04:19:55 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Jethro -:- You must be kidding me -:- Fri, Jul 28, 2000 at 17:41:34 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ ham -:- Has anyone ever told ya you're a sad old fucker :) -:- Fri, Jul 28, 2000 at 19:17:05 (GMT)
__ Coach -:- Summat like this peut etre -:- Wed, Jul 26, 2000 at 17:56:04 (GMT)
__ __ cq -:- Merci bucketloads, Coach. Will persevere. (nt) -:- Wed, Jul 26, 2000 at 18:14:45 (GMT)
__ __ __ Salam -:- May I also ask? Has the link in the toilet bowl on -:- Thurs, Jul 27, 2000 at 04:05:06 (GMT)


Date: Fri, Jul 28, 2000 at 07:36:15 (GMT)
From: Jean-Michel
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: Rawat's upcoming tour in Europe
Message:
Monday September 25, Paris, France
Wednesday September 27, Harrogate, UK
Saturday September 30, Rome, Italy
Monday October 2, Barcelona, Spain.....

Have you SmartCards ready!!

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Date: Fri, Jul 28, 2000 at 17:46:37 (GMT)
From: la-ex
Email: None
To: Jean-Michel
Subject: Rawat's upcoming tour in Europe
Message:
Hey JM, do you think this would be a good time for an add in London and Paris, directing people to the other side of the story about m (epo)?
It's obvious the first one had quite an impact...
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Date: Fri, Jul 28, 2000 at 10:58:08 (GMT)
From: Sir Dave
Email: None
To: Jean-Michel
Subject: Rawat's upcoming tour in Europe
Message:
Get the banners ready, inform all local press and let's make them events Maharaji will never forget!

In reality he'll always have a cult following, so long as the old hard-core premies are still around. Eventually it will become the Maharaji Darby & Joan club for old-age pensioners and like the WW2 veterans, they'll meet and reminisce about the old days and 'doesn't he look young for his age'.

They'll always be asked to make more effort and good things will always be just over the horizon. He'll make bad and derisory jokes about the ignorant people of the world and they'll laugh, mindlessly at them. He'll yell at them and they'll be grateful as they shuffle off with their Zimmer frames back to the old folks home.

Why Harrogate and not London? Maybe it's cheaper. But it's quite a drive from Reigate to Harrogate. He's certainly putting himself out.

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Date: Sun, Jul 30, 2000 at 07:44:17 (GMT)
From: Lords don't drive- they f
Email: None
To: Sir Dave
Subject: ly. (Leeds Bradford a/port) (NT)
Message:
Drive ... Ha. Leeds Bradford airport (probably in a helicopter) then car.
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Date: Fri, Jul 28, 2000 at 08:57:28 (GMT)
From: SB
Email: None
To: all
Subject: and your wallets!!
Message:
Isn't sad to see maharaji take advantage of premies? He convinces his followers they will benefit listening to his repetitive crap when all he is preocupied with is his wealth.
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Date: Fri, Jul 28, 2000 at 05:15:51 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: Am I nitpicking? Really? Am I just a nitpicker?
Message:
Something's happened to me. I used to be such a nice guy. Now all I can do is find fault, it seems. For example, on their web site, EV begins it's 'Statement of Values' with the following:

Elan Vital upholds the spirit of tolerance and openness throughout the organization and considers respect for the human being to be one of its most fundamental values.

Now, I'm sorry, but I just don't get this 'openness' thing. Am I being hypercritical, do you think? Like one of those guys you jsut want to tell to shut up? Maybe you're thinking, 'Hell, Jim, maybe EV's not the MOST open organization in the world but Christ, fella, they're okay, you know? They're not gonna win any awards or anything but they're like average or something.' Yet here I am just picking away.

Like, I know EV upholds the spirit of tolerance. No argument there. And yes, that standard's obvious throughout the organization. I admit that. And even a cranky old ex like me has to admit that respect for the human being is indeed one of EV's most fundamental values.

So why do I get hung up on this 'openness' thing? I feel like such an asshole sometimes. EV's open enough. It's just a bunch of volunteers getting together and doing stuff. What the fuck's my problem anyway, I have to wonder?

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Date: Fri, Jul 28, 2000 at 06:56:14 (GMT)
From: ham
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: This is getting too cosmic for me!
Message:
See my response to Bill in Joey's 'Hey who's mad' thread but also, and this is where it's doubly trippy, as I logged on I started scratching my head with paranoia because the second place I work (a hostel) has had an outbreak of head lice this week, and yesterday I was working in the hostel during the day with those who have been kept at home during the day, so as not to infect others using the day services. One of the women at this hostel has serious autistic tendencies, and our communication has got seriously deep and honest during the last two years. She cannot articulate very well but she is VERY AWARE of the realities around her, and how to manipulate the fraudulence surrounding her in social services. We went shopping together yesterday, and I think the nits have made the leap so it's a Sinead O'Connor shaved head 0 for me I think (I've been toying with it yet again anyway so that's my decision made for me).
When we got back yesterday, as usual after we'd been out, she said 'What am I today Mike, yes what am I today Mike, happy, that's what I am today, happy' and bursts into the most gorgeous laughter you've ever heard.

I'm rambling on because I'm a bit volatile emotionally at the moment, as I'm sure you can imagine, but also, just occasionally you've made comments about people with learning disabilities which implies they are stupid. Intellectually they might not be bright, after all, the only definition that sticks for a learning disability is someone with an IQ of less than 70, BUT BUT BUT
, emotionally within this group of people, I've met the sharpest people I will ever meet.

You imagine if you were still stuck in the ashram, and were unable to leave, and would never be able to leave, and that org controlled every single moment and movement of your life and you never got out, and, on the surface it was close to impossible for you to gain control, unless you exploded (with the risk of enforced meds). Is it any wonder they are very sharp. The biological survival mechanism, as we know from the concentration camps is a powerful force, even on the emotional level.

You know the respect I have for you, and why you talk here the way you do, (I KNEW, even without Gerrys comments earlier in the year, that in the real world you're very different)

but PLEASE count to ten before making comments in this territory. I also think that people leaving the cult now, are even more emotionally vulnerable and open to abuse, because they've been under the delusion that they WERE free agents, and the reality is just dawning after thirty years. Very similar emotionally to the journey of those with Parkinsons who took El Dopa or whatever it was called, and came too after decades unconscious.

Other than that you know how much I luv ya.

And think of the explanations of sychronicity I would have given to your and Joeys threads, back in the day.

God or guru maharajis grace in our lives is something else, heh.

HA HA HA HA HA ,

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Date: Fri, Jul 28, 2000 at 06:13:34 (GMT)
From: Zelda the Melba
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Am I nitpicking? Really? Am I just a nitpicker?
Message:
No Jim you are not a nipicker.
You are just able to see the forked tongued propaganda for what it is.
It sounds nice on paper, but what the organization REALLY does is support Mahaha in how he errodes personal freedom by grafting onto the person the rotten branch of guru dependance.

One thing, the people involved in this EV propaganda may truly beileive that they uphold the ultimate personal freedom, but they also may have a strong idea of what personal freedom is and should be- but they aint going to say that are they? It suffices to put the words to paper and let the common interpretation of them also be there.

This sounds like one of the statements an organization gets into its pr in order to protect ittself from being accussed of Human Rights violations.

Tis doubletalk Holmes

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Date: Fri, Jul 28, 2000 at 03:16:27 (GMT)
From: G
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: Prem P. Rawat and Rive T. McDow's watch patent
Message:
I did a search for patents held by Prem Rawat and got one hit.

Here is a link to a detailed description of Prem P. Rawat and Rive T. McDow's watch patent:

US5982710: Method and apparatus for providing time using cartesian coordinates

'A world time multi-function watch for providing the local time at any location on earth by entry of the cartesian coordinates of that location through the bezel of the watch or by means of a GPS unit.'

'Family member':
AU6463998A1: MULTI-FUNCTION WORLD TIME WATCH (Australia)

I could comment but it's late.

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Date: Fri, Jul 28, 2000 at 12:10:29 (GMT)
From: bill
Email: None
To: G
Subject: Prem P. Rawat and Rive T. McDow's watch patent
Message:
Notice how there is never any mention, in all his lists of 'accomplishments' of any success at bringing someone from darkness to light. Or a short list of humans who due to his teaching, actually realized knowledge.
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Date: Wed, Aug 02, 2000 at 11:05:33 (GMT)
From: SB
Email: None
To: bill
Subject: Prem P. Rawat and Rive T. McDow's watch patent
Message:
Good one!! LOL
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Date: Fri, Jul 28, 2000 at 17:02:12 (GMT)
From: Pauline Premie
Email: None
To: bill
Subject: My Master Is Brilliant....
Message:
I hope this puts to rest the sniping you ex-premies have been doing at Maharaji, and how successful he is. I'm sure Maharaji has made millions off this patent, all due to his own efforts and brilliance. I'm sure there is a huge market for....whatever that what does.

And I'm sure it was just out of that love and that compassion that Maharaji LET Rives McDow share in the patent with him. I'm sure Maharaji invented that watch all by himself and then Rives got to share in it out of that grace. I'm absolutely certain that it wasn't Rives that invented it, or did 99% of the work and then 'dedicated' it out of 'gratitude' to his 'master.' Of course not. I can't even imagine that was possible.

I mean, really, Maharaji has a 9th grade education from St. Josephs Academy in India, and the design of his website is pure genius, and so is his brilliant ability to write music and poetry. So, there is plenty of reason to think Maharaji invented that watch all by himself, in what precious little time he has what with having to tour all the time.

And I'm sure Maharaji's failure to mention Rives name on his website in which he talks about holding a patent, or even that he owns it with anyone else, is just an oversight, or due to some confused, spacy premie who wrote that part of Maharaji's biography.

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Date: Fri, Jul 28, 2000 at 08:46:31 (GMT)
From: Malibu Mole
Email: None
To: G
Subject: Rives McDow
Message:
You can email Rives McDow @ rmcdow@enteles.com He is right here in Malibu not far from the Ivory Tower. Runs a jewelry shop of sorts. Actually sounds like a pretty cool watch. Geez, I wonder what time it is in NY right now. Lemme see. Punch in the cartesean coordinates, Longitude and Latitude, plug in the GPS, press the button, wait for the satellite to acknowledge, download the coordinates, Bingo, It's 0442 in NY. Could have found that stupid page in the yellow pages with the time zones on it, in that amount of time.
Granted it is a great idea for world travelers, I guess.

Rives has an East Coast partner he has mentioned a few times to me. Don Beaner from Boston I believe. They are old 70's devotee's from the early ashram days.

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Date: Fri, Jul 28, 2000 at 19:53:06 (GMT)
From: Selene
Email: None
To: Malibu Mole
Subject: Don Beaner oh so that is where he ended up
Message:
He always did have aspirations for moving up in the cult.
Too funny.
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Date: Fri, Jul 28, 2000 at 17:10:17 (GMT)
From: Joe
Email: None
To: Malibu Mole
Subject: Rives McDow/Don Boener
Message:
Rives, I think, is Canadian (or should be with a name like that), but I don't recall for certain. He was an initiator for awhile in the late 70s or early 80s. I didn't know him well, but he seemed like a nice guy.

Don Boener was in Denver for quite a while, but I knew him in San Antonio, where I think he got sent as a 'problem' ashram premie. Quite a few of those got sent to San Antonio, which was sort of an ashram boot camp. Don was kind of a cut-up, and had a lot of problems with his celibacy vows. He was known for being quite aggressive, sexually, with the ladies. But maybe this is just because I happen to know quite a long list of female premies, whom Don slept with, and then rejected. I always thought this was strange, because Don was far from handsome. I think it was more 'imagination,' if you catch my drift.

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Date: Fri, Jul 28, 2000 at 19:55:22 (GMT)
From: Selene
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: Don Boener - oops *that* isn't how I knew him
Message:
he was community something or another for a while in Phoenix.
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Date: Thurs, Jul 27, 2000 at 23:28:32 (GMT)
From: Joey
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: Hey, who's mad ? :)
Message:
Thursday, July 27, 2000
Copied from Slate

By Chris Suellentrop

Bush's Unlikely Guru
The Los Angeles Times profiles Marvin Olasky, the former Communist and atheist turned born-again Christian and University of Texas journalism professor, who is 'the inspiration for Bush's philosophy of compassionate conservatism.' Olasky wants to allow religious groups to use taxpayer funds to provide social services to the poor, as long as the programs are voluntary. 'My tendency is to be inclusive. That can include Wiccans and Scientologists. If people are going to get mad at me, then so be it,' Olasky said.

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Date: Fri, Jul 28, 2000 at 01:48:13 (GMT)
From: bill
Email: None
To: Joey
Subject: now for the rebirth of DUO
Message:
federal funding!
The non religion can have its volunteers do deeds that the feds will pay for. Some notify ellen Vital
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Date: Mon, Jul 31, 2000 at 06:19:57 (GMT)
From: SB
Email: None
To: bill
Subject: I bet they already have
Message:
I was checking the non-profit sites today and couldn't help to notice how much benefits are there available for these assholes; EV/maharajichi must be taking advantage of ALL. Under educational organization alone they have hundreds of benefits to take advantage of. THE TAXPAYERS ARE COLABORATING WITH HIS MISSION?? He lives in our society, uses all, and gives crap in return.

He must be exposed. He must be stopped.

Sickening; in the name of love and GOD. yack!

I must go now, i'm puking again...

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Date: Fri, Jul 28, 2000 at 06:09:54 (GMT)
From: ham
Email: None
To: bill
Subject: Vital Ellen - the ideal co. for social services
Message:
I have now been working for social services in the UK for five years, and I'm just about to do a runna, at great risk to myself financially, because I've been certain that it is identical to a cult for three of those five years, and if I stay there any longer I will do or say something that I will SEVERELY regret.

I cannot imagine for one minute that it is any different in the US of A, and I'd bet for exactly the same reasons.

Superficial similarities.

They are both orgs that because of their aims should be committed to quality, openness and values, values such as respect, choice, equality of opportunity, involvement in the community, with chances for increasing skills and personal learning through experience and because of these aims, which are about respect for life, their value base should be reflected in their practice because without that they are nothing.

But when you scratch the surface, goodness me what a surprize, you find they are both riddled with lies and their practice is based upon abuse and in both instances you need do no more than scratch the surface to find this abuse, which is fundamentally psychological abuse of vulnerable people.

I could take this a lot further because the similarities are so frightening it has shocked me, and really made me work out in detail the nature of that abuse, but I handed in my notice yesterday, because I can't take any more whatsoever, and I'm devastated because the people I work for (people with learning disabilities in the supposedly radical end of SS) have just heard I'm leaving and are devastated. These people have been abused by the system all their lives, and most of them will never be able to live independently and know it, and have developed interesting and sophisticated survival strategies to deal with that abuse, but revel in the opportunity in real communication from the heart when they do meet workers who are truly committed to their cause, but are also used to dealing with the good workers continually leaving because they are driven out by the abuse they take because of their committment.

I say Ellen Vital and Social Services will be perfect bed mates, and deserve each other, and the number of gorgeous value driven women who come into our line of work, well the prawn will love it because we know how much he likes to shag his employees, especially if there is a steady stream of them.
But porky, if that is a key component for your org making the move, be warned,

these women will find you a sad and disgusting creature who they would not even be able to be in the same room with but the laughter your come ons would create would be truly hilarious, but I can think of a few managers who would be perfectly up for it, IF your pecker is big enough, who are as disgustingly creepy as you are.

Yes I say the match would be perfect organizationally and sexually for those at the top, truly a good fit all round.

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Date: Fri, Jul 28, 2000 at 16:50:57 (GMT)
From: Selene
Email: None
To: ham
Subject: I've heard this before right here in the US ham
Message:
I work with someone who worked for one of those orgs and it was just as bad. The people at the top were corrupt and the organization was top heavy with them, all commanding salaries 2 or more times hight than the rest of the workers.

Get some rest. Or go have some fun. Sorry you had to go through that.

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Date: Sat, Jul 29, 2000 at 01:12:42 (GMT)
From: ham
Email: None
To: Selene
Subject: There's been some wicked times too
Message:
Think I'll take a break for a while then go back for the social nights, turned 'em onto house stuff, we've had some wild nights, couple of the younger members are pretty good at djing, & Phil the MC is something else, he just goes for it, whenever he's on the mic the floor is packed within 5 minutes, he's a real character & a right entrepreneur!

But you're right, can already feel myself getting a life again, & don't regret it at all for a moment, because there's been some great stuff to counter all the bollox, loads of laughter, real confidence building, up in the computer room where I worked we've got members who show staff how to use the computers now, for nearly three years the place was seriously radical, and a lot of members are much more assertive, and will fight for their rights more now, the lunchtime radio station used to be like a party every day for a couple of years, and that's just starting again, but most important of all they've started to learn that it's ok to take the piss out of staff, and without too much anger leaking.

And a bit of guerrilla activity, unnofficially and anonymously through the local media, with protection to those leaking blah de blah. There is also a local advocacy group who do a lot of good work, and a few of our more articulate members are part of that group, as long as I'm not perceived as TOO much of a threat because of my 'attitude', they're mostly funded by social services! well I'm seeing ways .........Also been meaning to set up a house club in east london for people with, there's one in south london which has been going down a storm, starting to tour, even had a session at the glastonbury festival this year, don't know if you've heard of that festival, but it's cool, a bit large, and getting a bit urban, but the thought of our members getting a chance in such an environment is wicked, someone like phil would revel in such an atmosphere.

Talking of laughter, what a dork I am, I had such a great time in my first cult, I ended up working for another one, if that isn't seriously deranged I'd like to know what is!! :)

Thanks for pulling that positive stuff out of me babes.

Anyway that's enough of me, how's things your end, hows your cult exiting going, whatever whatever, do love the way you're so open about your emotional swings, must give serious encouragement to others to start releasing that stuff, apart from the healing aspect re the psycho abuse side of the cult and coming to terms with the buried and repressed emotions it created, think you're one hell of a courageous woman, and I'm not overblowing, know it's not all hunky dory. That is the worst aspect I've found from those years, how it encouraged the repressive denial aspects of our personalities to end up way too dominant.

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Date: Sat, Jul 29, 2000 at 03:05:17 (GMT)
From: Selene
Email: None
To: ham
Subject: There HAVE been some wicked times
Message:
Hey Ham thank you.

That is one of the nicest posts anyone has ever written to me.
Arent you going to the straw man festival real soon? That should help. I actually looked into coming there but it's a bad time.
(they; work) always try to bother development (me) this time of year to start shit up while the faculty and students are away.

It sucks becuase it corresponds with the worst season of the year weather wise. but I'm getting out soon for a little while.
Just not to Europe, damned!!

Don't feel like a dork about anything. First of all jobs don't count we have to work.
Second:
We were brainwashed and it takes forever. I still fall for the charismatic types. Just get out of it quicker and with less damage every time. It's a learning process.
I APPRECIATE so much what you said about me not hiding my emotional side but you know I don't deserve credit really, it's just how I am.

Love you.

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Date: Sat, Jul 29, 2000 at 03:24:59 (GMT)
From: ham
Email: None
To: Selene
Subject: No I ain't having that
Message:
Come on Selene, own it, you didn't end up where you are by total accident, I ain't having that, there were choices taken, take some credit, PLEASE!

Big Chill, we got a deal, next year for definite??

Went to book tickets early July, all gone, but it feels cool, gonna head out into the green south west and do a bit of e therapy, well needed, still gonna see if we can get in, hey and going with this gorgeous irish nutter driving, maybe, maybe not, either way cool!!

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Date: Sat, Jul 29, 2000 at 03:37:33 (GMT)
From: Selene
Email: None
To: ham
Subject: watch out for those Irish girls
Message:
now how would I know that? didn't get me last name from nowhere.

Enjoy yourself and OK OK I'll work on learning to take credit.
Next year is a plan (much as I can do those things)
Hope you get in someway or another :) :)

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Date: Fri, Jul 28, 2000 at 15:33:23 (GMT)
From: G
Email: None
To: ham
Subject: it's the same in the USA
Message:
I cannot imagine for one minute that it is any different in the US of A, and I'd bet for exactly the same reasons.

You are unfortunately correct, it's the same in the USA. I've read about a lot of abuse and seen some first hand, and it runs the gamut of all kinds of services. I saw a unbelievably decrepit house for recovering alcoholics, run by 'entrepreneurs', that should have been condemned and torn down. I worked with a woman whose husband was involved in an embezzlement scheme at a social services program. I saw a nurse verbally abuse a dying person.
A social worker friend told me about the high stress of her job, one thing she mentioned was too much paperwork.
I've read about mentally retarded people dying due to neglect while someone pocketed the money, and plenty of other abuse.
Some of this is related to the Reagan era privatization of social services, which many times just made things worse. Reagan also slashed federal funds and basically kicked people out of mental hospitals onto the streets.
It's sad, but there are also plenty of people who care.
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Date: Fri, Jul 28, 2000 at 17:32:20 (GMT)
From: Joe
Email: None
To: G
Subject: You are so right, G
Message:
California is still living with the mess Reagan made when he was governor. He slashed the funds for mental institutions, with the promise that the services would given through smaller facilities in local communities. Nice idea, but Reagan never funded the local communities. Hence, we have many people on the streets, including a large number of Vietnam Vets with post-traumatic stress disorder, and accompanying drug and alcohol problems that the cities and counties are stuck with trying to deal with.

Then of course, in their wisdom, Americans elected this same guy president, who gave the largest tax cut in history for the rich, while increasing payroll taxes on ordinary working people, and then slashed social welfare programs while at the same time pouring trillions into defense programs like star wars.

And this is the man that got an airport named after him in DC?

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Date: Fri, Jul 28, 2000 at 11:27:29 (GMT)
From: Sir Dave
Email: None
To: ham
Subject: Vital Ellen - the ideal co. for social services
Message:
Ham, if you are leaving the job, why not spill the beans about all the abuse you've witnessed to the local and national press? This kind of thing is hot news these days and it would throw some light into dark corners.
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Date: Fri, Jul 28, 2000 at 12:20:18 (GMT)
From: bill
Email: None
To: Sir Dave
Subject: Vital Ellen - the ideal co. for social services
Message:
I talked with someone last week who spent the winter working at a disabled facility in Conneticut usa and it sounds similar to your story. If you dont want to spill the beans to the media as Sir David suggests, you can always talk to us.
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Date: Fri, Jul 28, 2000 at 13:28:24 (GMT)
From: ham
Email: None
To: bill
Subject: If only it was that simple, Bill and Sir D, BUT
Message:
If only it was that simple, but we aren’t talking physical abuse here, but verbal & psychological abuse of staff and clients- directly and built into the system, and that is too subtle and not sexy enough for the media.

Higher management are also incredibly slippery, very clever with language, the whole management culture is pr & spin. Most managers are careerists who are not good enough for the private world, and they know all the key words & cover their tracks unbelievably fast when they think something is becoming a hot issue.
Bullying verbally is the norm, sickness levels in the borough average 35 days a year, the sickness is nearly all stress related, staff positions are not covered for months, we’ve just been through a period where we had no manager and deputy for six months, with an acting deputy part-time. During that period we had two staff posts unfilled, when our manager came back from stress related illness the dep was taken away. We had two staff positions unfilled for months, another two off long term sick. Three of us committed to the work have been on the verge of stress related breakdowns for months. We’re talking three/four staff, covering sixteen rooms and thirty clients a day, with three clients with severe challenging behaviour roaming the building either verbally intimidating and/or physically assaulting other clients and destroying equipment and files, when up to five staff are in, two are lazy as hell and don’t give a fuck, they know the system inside out, one of them is the union rep. How do you prove someone is verbally abusing someone, or deliberately being heavy handed. What are classed as small scale complaints are struck off the disciplinary record after a year. I’ve been working in the elderly (2 yeasrs) and learning disability field (5 years) without a police check. Anyone who is truly evil would find it very easy to get into this line of work.
And because of the stresses, if you highlight problems you are perceived as negative and having an attitude problem.

Project management in the borough is appallingly bad, there has been a huge cover-up of a £3 million pound overspend, so budgets have been slashed, this is all happening as the borough prepares for the ss equivalent of ofsted, except because we are talking learning disabilities they won’t be visiting the sites for a week to check out the practice, no it all has to be paper documented, everything we do, so the workloads are going up.

You’ve got the flavour I’m sure, and this isn’t the half of it..
I’m after a group contact through the local media, a huge number of committed workers are leaving the borough, but of course job refs are required so they really squeeze. Any contact with the media leads to instant suspension blah de blah

No votes in learning disabilities, so as long as no physical abuse is present or exposed, or if it is, not proven, then out-of-site, out of mind.

In the elderly services all over the country abuse and neglect is rampant but it’s very difficult to prove, how do you prove that an elderly patient with dementia is being terrorised or physically abused when workers are one-to-one with them in the toilet, or helping them dress in their bedrooms or when getting up. God help you if you’re elderly and have a learning disability, or are in hospital with a learning disability, then it’s even worse.

Private homes for the elderly are even worse, but inspections are usually set in advance etc.
The only way of really spotting neglect in elderly homes is if the home smells of urine you have serious neglect, and if the majority of residents have sores around the groin area. But if the staff are starving the residents, nicking all the best food, leaving unskilled and unchecked agency staff to look after residents witrhout telling them who is diabetic, likely to have fits etc, well you can imagine. Yet inspect their records and everything is hunky dory.

Thanks for your concern though both of you.
Now that I'm leaving I will not be giving up, I haven't put myself through the daily institutional abuse of the last few years to just slip away quietly, in fact it gives me a lot more freedom, and I will continue sniping and doing hit and run guerrilla tactics.

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Date: Fri, Jul 28, 2000 at 16:16:47 (GMT)
From: Katie
Email: None
To: ham
Subject: Hamzen, my sympathy and respect.
Message:
I could never work in social services, for the reasons you describe and a few others. It is bad enough working in an environmental protection field - cannot imagine what it would be like to work with people who really need help.

I know people in many kinds of social services who are extremely committed to their jobs and who genuinely want to help people - unfortunately, most of them either get burned out by all the paperwork and administration and end up not doing anything or being cynical and abusing the system, or are like you and are forced out. (Also, I am not sure if this is true in England, but many hospital/nursing home/day care workers in the US generally get paid minimum wage. Anyone who really cares and is good often can get other jobs which will pay them the wage they need to support their families.)

Congratulations to you for not giving up though, and also for the time you DID put in in the system. I am sure that you helped a lot of people, and will continue to do so. I also appreciated what you said about LD people - I have a couple of people in my family/extended family who are LD (one has gotten a lot of help because her mother is extremely pro-active; the other one has not because he fell through the cracks in the 'system'), and what you said is correct.

Take care -
Lots of love,
Katie

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Date: Fri, Jul 28, 2000 at 17:21:28 (GMT)
From: ham
Email: None
To: Katie
Subject: Can you imagine Elan Vital running some of it
Message:
if Bush gets in, the results on staff who survive long term are the same denial of reality, constantly putting a positive gloss on, denying the problems, thinking about anything is seen as pointless, no mind allowed, everyone gets duplicitous, everything pc on the surface, loss of confidence through that denial, and the spin is wondrous to behold, never allow anyone outside to see the reality of the org (secret techniques), the thought of rawat getting money out of running such a scam is too appalling to imagine.

And lets be honest really, what religious group is any different?
Sometimes this world is unreal eh!

Re the dosh, it's above minimum thank god, but no savings and limited life, but then I'm an old hippy who's always been at that level so it's been bearable.
Maybe after thirty years though, it might be interesting to earn some, and the stress I definitely won't miss, just the pain of thinking of those people I've made friendships with who have no option, and never will. Oh well, a few tears will be shed, that's for sure!!

Oh and after a number of phonecalls it looks like there is now an informal network which will be stirring it up in the local media, between us we have a lot of info.

One thing, the good workers in this field are the best people I've ever met, sharp, wicked humour and big hearts, and completely mad, well not unlike the people in the cult!

Oh & thanx for the comp's.

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Date: Thurs, Jul 27, 2000 at 22:21:10 (GMT)
From: Pauline Premie
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: My Poem
Message:
Speaking of poetry, I wrote this to express what a wonderful experience of that love, I had at the last event at Amaroo. It just shows you that absolutely everything is by his grace, even the simplest things in life. It's so beautiful You can also see it on Enjoyinglife.org.

Amaroo Morning by Pauline Premie

Slowly, on the turgid plains of Amaroo
I squat, avoiding tepid cow pies and other doo.
Hark, is that the sound of the holy breath of life?
Or is it the private duties a coordinator's wife?

Languidly, I sit in a field so near to my Lord
I try, in case he sees, to not look bored.
Awake, is that what life is meant to be?
The nectar is yellow, I may finally pee.

Silently, my mind and body destroy that peace.
I cry, unsynchronized without release.
Despair, why is that gift not here?
Am I to be denied that relief that seems so near?

Desperately, I push for that gift to explode
I groan, loudly, and search for a departing load.
Rejoice, I think it may be on its way
And I will have that gratitude for another day.

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Date: Fri, Jul 28, 2000 at 04:30:20 (GMT)
From: Loaf
Email: None
To: Pauline Premie
Subject: FA - this might be an imposter
Message:
For the time up to the present, Pauline has been a single ray of sunshine in a very dark place indeed. Despite the hounds baying for her blood, she, like Mira, has not swayed from her simple devotion to her Lord.

I am therefore forced to come to the conclusion that this poem is far too cynical and lavatorial to have come from PP.

Unless of course, she has been corrupted and filled with doubts as a result of keeping bad company here. Its always sad when a saintly soul employed in missionary work among the unredeemed savages falls ill with an STD.

Is this really you Pauline ? Has it come to this ?

If it is you, then I for one shed a tear for the passing of your innocence.

Loaf

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Date: Fri, Jul 28, 2000 at 07:06:14 (GMT)
From: ham
Email: None
To: Loaf
Subject: Don't be sad Loaf
Message:
You're coming to terms with your own loss of innocence, but are still desirous of the condition in a Hollywood/Wizard of Oz kind of way I'd guess.

When Pauline turns, she'll really turn, and then we'll see one hell of a powerful woman. She might even fancy a shag then, or maybe more, so I'd support her in her hour of need if I were you.

And didn't our big hearts, and over sensitivity, lay us open to the supremest lila of all!

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Date: Fri, Jul 28, 2000 at 00:07:54 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Pauline Premie
Subject: That is SO beautiful! (nt)
Message:
ffffff
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Date: Thurs, Jul 27, 2000 at 19:21:35 (GMT)
From: cq
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: Non-profit Cyber-Accountability: help!
Message:
I have to be off-line for a day or two.

Would anyone like to check the following site for juicy details?

http://www.bway.net/~hbograd/cyb-acc.html
Nonprofit Cyber-Accountability

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Date: Thurs, Jul 27, 2000 at 20:14:07 (GMT)
From: Joe
Email: None
To: cq
Subject: The Registry of Caritable Trusts -- Call Them
Message:
This is the entity I called some time ago, who said that Elan Vital was no longer 'charitable' but was a church, and so they weren't filing anymore. I didn't think to ask of the other stuff they may have, since according to this, they have 'files' on every non-profit registered in California. I encourage anyone to call and ask about Elan Vital, Inc.

The Registry of Charitable Trusts.
The Registry of Charitable Trusts has files for every nonprofit registered in California and is a good place to turn if the organization is being uncooperative, or if for some reason you don't want it to know you're requesting this information. Its files contain Form 990s for most groups. A few non-charitable nonprofits -- like business groups and political organizations -- may file a Form 990 with the IRS but are not registered with the California Attorney General.

The Registry's files contain other great stuff besides the form 990: Articles of Incorporation, Bylaws, the Form 1023 (see below), the California form CT-2. In addition, the files contain any letters from the secretary of state and the attorney general, which may be requests for further information or warnings that the organization doesn't meet certain standards (for example, if its directors are engaging in self-dealing or if too much money is going to compensation rather than program expenses). Information obtained as part of formal investigations by the Attorney General's enforcement unit are not part of the public record.

There are two ways to get information from the Registry: Go to Sacramento and browse through the file during business hours (Monday to Thursday, 10 a.m. to noon and 2 to 4 p.m.) or call and request that copies be made by the official copying service, which charges 30 cents a page plus postage. Registry staff does not make copies. For more information, write the Registry of Charitable Trusts at 1300 I St., suite 1101, Sacramento, CA 94203-4470, or call (916) 445-2021.

The Institute for Nonprofit Organization Management has created a database of information from the 990s and CT-2 forms of California nonprofit organizations. It provides printouts to the public, for a service charge, and it contains only information that the Registry has entered into its database, so it's not complete. For information, call (415) 422-2336.

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Date: Thurs, Jul 27, 2000 at 19:54:30 (GMT)
From: Joey
Email: None
To: cq
Subject: Great find cq, already in my favorites...
Message:
...although there's so much there, it'll take time to sink my teeth into it.
I'm hopeful that this site can help us in our efforts to make m and EV more accountable...that there will be some helpful tips there.

Good work!

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Date: Thurs, Jul 27, 2000 at 16:10:12 (GMT)
From: Eyecatcher
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: Here's an Interesting Site
Message:
http://www.hrdaipress.com

poems of Mira,Kabir, Brahmanand,mysticism,devotion,poetry,Indian songs,other expressions of the heart......poems of quest poems of finding.......could it be? ...... yes it is .....direct links to M site and Enjoying Life.

About Us, books and music to be added shortly.

Very beautiful, very enticing, very wrong,

Glad it's not too exposed,

Eyecatcher

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Date: Sat, Jul 29, 2000 at 00:23:22 (GMT)
From: Elaine
Email: None
To: Eyecatcher
Subject: Thank you very much. nt
Message:
om
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Date: Fri, Jul 28, 2000 at 01:55:08 (GMT)
From: bill
Email: None
To: Eyecatcher
Subject: as if..
Message:
as if any of that crap gives any authenticity to the insane rawat clan.
eastern bullshit misperception of life.
All thier poets are hallucinating.
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Date: Thurs, Jul 27, 2000 at 18:46:08 (GMT)
From: cq
Email: None
To: Eyecatcher
Subject: Here's an Interesting Site
Message:
Kabir was certainly an inspired poet. But since when have premies thought that the Maha was the one that inspired him?

They do think that?

I see.

Interesting ....

(still not a 'leader' is he?)

enjoy the following poems of Kabir, and remember, they were written by someone who WAS a poet.


I said to the wanting creature inside me:

What is this river you want to cross?

There are no travelers on the river-road, & no road.

Do you see anyone moving about on that bank, or resting?

There is no river at all, and no boat, and no boatman.

There is no towrope either, and no one to pull it.

There is no ground, no sky, no time,no bank, no ford!

And there is no body, and no mind!

Do you believe there is some place that will make the soul less thirsty?

In that great absence you will find nothing.

Be strong then, and enter into your own body;

There you have a solid place for your feet.

Think about it carefully!

Don't go off somewhere else!

Kaaabir says this: just throw away all thoughts of imaginary things, &

stand firm in that which you are.


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------


What has death and a thick body dances before

What has no thick body and no death.

The trumpet says, 'I am you.'

The spiritual master arrives and bows down

To the beginning student.

Try to live to see this.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Are you looking for me? I am in the next seat!

My shoulder is against yours.

You will not find me in the stupas, nor in Indian shrine rooms, nor in the

synagogues, nor in cathedrals:

Not in masses, nor kirtans, nor in legs winding around neck, nor in eating

nothing but vegetables.

When you really look for me, you will see me instantly - you will find me

in the tiniest house of time.

Kabir says: 'student, tell me, what is God? He is the breath inside the

breath.'

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

It is time to put up a love-swing!

Tie the body and then tie the mind so that they swing between the arms of

the Secret One you love,

Bring the water that falls from the clouds to your eyes,

& cover yourself inside entirely with the shadow of night.

Bring your face up close to his ear,

& then talk only about what you want deeply to happen.

Kabir says: Listen to me, brother, bring the shape, face, & odor of the

Holy One inside you.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

The Holy One disguised as an old person in a cheap hotel

Goes out to ask for car fare.

But I never seem to catch sight of him.

If I did, what would I ask for?

He has already experienced what is missing in my life.

Kabir says, I belong to this old person. Now

Let the events about to come, come!


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------


What comes out of the harp? Music!

And there is a dance no hands or feet dance.

No fingers play it, no ears hear it,

Because the Holy One is the ear, and the one listening too.

The great doors remain closed,

But the spring fragrance is inside anyway,

And no one sees what takes place there.

Men and women who have escaped from

The gross part of their brain will understand

This poem.

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Date: Thurs, Jul 27, 2000 at 16:18:10 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Eyecatcher
Subject: Do you think they're premies?
Message:
Do you think they're premies?

The reason I ask is that they say this somewhere:

But most of all, I want to thank my Master, Maharaji, for awakening my heart and giving me Knowledge. He has taught me simplicity and led me to the natural joy within. He has breathed life into my devotion and made it real. He continues to guide me in my daily life and helps me keep this fire burning. He reminds me again and again of what is important. I am benefiting immensely from what he is doing. I could never have translated these poems without his inspiration. These poems are more his than mine. I am very grateful for this privilege.

All the time I was working on this book I was very aware of my great fortune. It felt as if Kabir and the other poets were standing on one side, whispering their poems in my ears, and my Master was standing on the other, laughing and unlocking their mystery. Without the inner experience that my Master taught me, these poems would have been mere speculations. But because of what he has done for me they have become real and I can relate to them as an experience and not just a nice idea. Based on what has happened for me I have great hopes for all of mankind. I think peace is not only possible, it is imminent! Many people will find peace within themselves, not as a group, but as individuals. It is already happening. I have seen it with my own eyes. My Master can help everybody. I have total confidence in his purpose and ability.

We are very lucky to have him.

My guess is that they are. What do you think?

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Date: Thurs, Jul 27, 2000 at 16:24:40 (GMT)
From: Eyecatcher
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Do you think they're premies?
Message:
Where did you find this part? I haven't seen it yet. I did see the links to M sites though so of course I definately do.

Eyecatcher

ps By the way I do love the paintings and the format of the site.

Very esthetically done. Very intelligent for a premie.

That's good news.

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Date: Thurs, Jul 27, 2000 at 18:25:59 (GMT)
From: cq
Email: None
To: Eyecatcher
Subject: Do you think they're anything OTHER than premies?
Message:
http://www.hrdaipress.com/essays.htm then look under 'acknowledgements' for the bit that Jim quoted.
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Date: Thurs, Jul 27, 2000 at 19:10:42 (GMT)
From: G
Email: None
To: cq
Subject: Whois search on hraipress
Message:
Results of Whois search:

Registrant:
Hrdaipress Inc (HRDAIPRESS-DOM)
72-47 Loubet St.
Forest Hills, NY 11375
US

Domain Name: HRDAIPRESS.COM

Administrative Contact:
NICREG (NIC22-ORG) crc@PHOENIXAT.COM
820 Massachusetts Avenue
St Cloud, FL 34769
US
(407) 891-1363
Fax- (407) 891-1363
Technical Contact, Zone Contact:
Hostmaster (HO1320-ORG) hostmaster@9NETAVE.COM
9NETAVE
110 Meadowlands Pkwy
Secaucus, NJ 07094
US
000-000-0000
Fax- 000-000-0000
Billing Contact:
Alex Louis (AL478-ORG) entelechy@IBM.NET
Hrdaipress Inc.
72-47 Loubet St.
Forest Hills , NY 11375
US
718 268-5667
Fax- 718 793-1143

Record last updated on 15-Sep-1999.
Record expires on 21-Mar-2001.
Record created on 21-Mar-1999.
Database last updated on 27-Jul-2000 06:19:54 EDT.

Domain servers in listed order:

NS2.9NETAVE.COM 216.156.2.2
NS3.9NETAVE.COM 216.156.2.3

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Date: Thurs, Jul 27, 2000 at 19:15:37 (GMT)
From: cq
Email: None
To: G
Subject: They sound like good people, G, why the search? nt
Message:
sdghfd
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Date: Thurs, Jul 27, 2000 at 19:23:11 (GMT)
From: G
Email: None
To: cq
Subject: In case anyone wondered who the registrant was
Message:
I wondered how independant this site is, so I wondered who the registrant was. I figured someone else may also wonder, so I posted this.
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Date: Thurs, Jul 27, 2000 at 17:30:03 (GMT)
From: RobertB
Email: bobb@wintelsolutions.com
To: anyone
Subject: There's a suggestion form at this site -
Message:
I asked to see some poetry from their master. (You know, some of that crap is an embarrassment to humanity. I'll take a peak later and report back.)
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Date: Thurs, Jul 27, 2000 at 17:43:51 (GMT)
From: jondon
Email: None
To: RobertB
Subject: M's poetry
Message:
I heard this stuff once at an event. He was reading this stuff and I'm thinking, 'Wow, what a self-absorbed, ego-maniacal motherfucker'.

Some of the lines that I distinctly remember, dealing with Master and Student:

You are the Flowers
Master is Sun
You are the fishes
Master is Water....
yada yada yada yada...ad infinitum....ad vomitus

It was at this point in the event that I stood up and left. My roommates, who must be somewhat near the inner circle judging by their seats on the floor (albeit last row on the floor) thought it was the most thought provoking stuff. I look at poetry for what it is. I was taught in my schools that one did not judge poetry. It is just what it is, for the moment it was written.

This stuff just plain SUCKED. And each one got progressively worse, more and more about him being the one who gives life to all of you sheep out there. Come on right this way, step right up folks, to the slaughterhouse. Duh! OK!

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Date: Thurs, Jul 27, 2000 at 18:56:55 (GMT)
From: G
Email: None
To: jondon
Subject: Here's some 'better' poetry
Message:
Here's some 'better' poetry (although ONLY relatively speaking), Vogon poetry!

Devnull's Vogon Poetry

(I wonder if Lee Wilson is related to Janice)

Oh frettled gruntbuggly

The dead swans

Official Page of Vogon Poetry Submissions

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Date: Thurs, Jul 27, 2000 at 22:29:00 (GMT)
From: G
Email: None
To: all
Subject: correction to link
Message:
This is the correct link for 'Oh frettled gruntbuggly':

Oh frettled gruntbuggly

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Date: Thurs, Jul 27, 2000 at 23:56:04 (GMT)
From: Old Scottish Poet
Email: None
To: G
Subject: Me favorite Scottish Poem
Message:
You canna shove your granny off a bus,
You canna shove your granny off a bus
You canna shove your granny,
Because she's your mammies mammy,
You canna shove your granny off a bus.
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Date: Thurs, Jul 27, 2000 at 20:14:47 (GMT)
From: Street Poet
Email: None
To: G
Subject: Here's some 'better' poetry
Message:
slowly recognizing a large dog in the car ahead

almost full moon a luxurious voice on the answering machine

car piled with luggage straying into the funeral procession

sun shines red through my father's thumb on the steering wheel

in a gentle way, in the angry hills yes, I am laughing

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Date: Thurs, Jul 27, 2000 at 16:06:35 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: Can anyone reach EV?
Message:
I've been trying to reach EV ever since they put up their 'press kit' with its contact number, (818) 889-1193, but no one ever answers. Sometimes I've left my name and number, sometimes I haven't. I've tried several different extensions but nothing. No live person ever, only voice mail.

This is the contact number on a PRESS KIT, for God's sake! I wonder, do you think they've all drunk cool-aid or eaten jello or something? Should we call the fire department?

Anyone else want to try? Or, better still, anyone have any other numbers where I might hope to find a real, live EV person. I want to talk to someone about a few things. Like upping my monthly automatic credit card withdrawal for one. Is there a limit to how much I can give? That's one question.

I also want to know if I'm free to take this press kit around to local public schools in my area. See, I'm not clear about the current age cut-off. Is it okay to give the press kit to kids under thirteen-and-a-half? How about if you don't answer their questions? And what about if THEY want to make a contribution but still aren't old enough for Knowledge yet? Is that okay?

And I've got other questions. EV offers a free picture of Maharaji upon request. But I need to know if the picture they're offering is one I've already got and, if so, if I can get a different one instead? Or maybe one of Premlata or Monica maybe? Or is there a group shot of Maharaji, Marolyn AND Monica with the kids? How about one of those?

And what's Maharaji's favorite summer drink? Has he been affected by the recent world-wide cost rise in tequila? If so, what's he doing about it? Can he recommend any good substitutes for margueritas for the budget-minded drinker? What?

Anyway, I wonder if any one else has tried to contact EV recently. Seriously. Anyone?

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Date: Fri, Jul 28, 2000 at 17:18:42 (GMT)
From: Ben Lurking
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Can anyone reach EV?
Message:
Its all voice mail - I even tried rawat under the name selction, I don't think its caller ID as I go out thru a internal system and you can id the line I am on. That number probally routes to voice mail only.
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Date: Fri, Jul 28, 2000 at 22:47:24 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Ben Lurking
Subject: Thanks for trying anyway, Ben (nt)
Message:
This is so funny.
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Date: Sat, Jul 29, 2000 at 00:37:58 (GMT)
From: Ben Lurking
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Thanks for trying anyway, Ben (nt)
Message:
Dial 1194 and you can get a real Elan Vital person, I got voice mail the first time and the second time some one answered and I said is this Elan Vital and she said yes and I said thank you and hung up - its now your turn Jim I found a live person.
PS I learned this dial 1 number up trick as a premie from Joe Gould who owned the Kittredge building, so see I did retain something useful!
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Date: Fri, Jul 28, 2000 at 02:43:52 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: ***10 DOLLAR REWARD FOR CONTACTING EV ***
Message:
I think it's fair to say that Joe Whalen would be willing to pay ten dollars, maybe even more, to the first person who's able to actually speak to someone at EV's hysterically-named 'Public Relations' or, as we call it in Canada, 'PR', department. This does not include calls limited to donation or trinket issues. My guess is that Joe would be willing to pay anyone who's able to find out when and where Maharaji or his representative (or, as we say in Canada, a 'rep') would be available for an interview.

Again, the number is:

(818) 889-1193

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Date: Sat, Jul 29, 2000 at 00:49:20 (GMT)
From: Ben Lurking
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: ***10 DOLLAR REWARD FOR CONTACTING EV ***
Message:
DO I have to call her back and ask her if she is in PR to get the $10? I have made three ld calls already and I got a live person - I think I should get the reward. I notice you volunteered Joe to pay it so he can give it to Brian in my name to keep the site up.
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Date: Sat, Jul 29, 2000 at 01:09:21 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Ben Lurking
Subject: ***10 DOLLAR REWARD FOR CONTACTING EV ***
Message:
Sorry, Ben, just reaching someone on the phone and hanging up doesn't cut it. Obviously, Joe's not going to put out his hard-earned money for that. I think that what Joe meant (well, he didn't really talk about this at all but I'm guessing that this is what he would have meant if he'd ever talked about this) is that you have to have a substantive conversation of some sort to get the money.

What you did, I figure, is worth about $4.00, give or take.

But that's good too. Don't get me wrong. But $10.00? Come on, Ben. Joe wasn't born yesterday.

Anyway, I tried the 1194 after I read your post and all I got was voice mail. But thanks for the tip. I'll try again.

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Date: Sat, Jul 29, 2000 at 02:12:16 (GMT)
From: Ben Lurking
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: ***10 DOLLAR REWARD FOR CONTACTING EV ***
Message:
I think that each number up gets a direct extension, if you know names you may work your way up to the teacher himself. Now your trying to make me earn another 6 dollars when I previously stated I don't want to talk to anyone there and I think I did quite well to say thank you before I hung up.
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Date: Sat, Jul 29, 2000 at 02:16:26 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Ben Lurking
Subject: ***10 DOLLAR REWARD FOR CONTACTING EV ***
Message:
I'm not trying to do anything, Ben. Besides, it's all Joe's money. What's it got to do with me anyway? Sheesh!
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Date: Fri, Jul 28, 2000 at 09:30:51 (GMT)
From: SB
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Have you tried Registered Mail?
Message:
That is how I will contact them. Terry is not interested in answering any questions. She is the head of PR?? LOL

maharaji is so efficient!! NOT! All is so shyncronized, just as he wants it...

I just puked again!

All is good Jim! The one who laughs last laughs better.

Do you think Terry Yingling would feel as comfortable as you would if talking face to face? These people function on fear, 'that feeling' they refer as being powerful is like a big BOO! Powerful nothing. Weird? Yes! She can't EVEN ANSWER THE PHONE!!!They are afraid of our MINDS...That tells you something about what goes on at the headquarters of Lard. ALL FOR THE LORD! Can you imagine the internal conflict they live with each day! Such a horrible way to live!!

Registered mail.

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Date: Fri, Jul 28, 2000 at 01:46:34 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Back one reading group for you, Ben
Message:
(818) 889-1193 :)
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Date: Fri, Jul 28, 2000 at 04:07:12 (GMT)
From: Ben Lurking
Email: benlurken@aol.com
To: Jim
Subject: Back one reading group for you, Ben
Message:
Look it took me 2 hours 2 get to the bottom, now you want me to retain what I am reading - give me a break I'll go back to being a reporter for ScrewuGuru magazine. Okay lets assume I am capable of dialing the number tommorrow. I don't really want to talk to anybody, I'll give you ten dollars if I can get through and don't have to talk to anybody - thats a skill that I don't have (bull shitting bullshitters who believe what they spew). I mean if the jerk grants me an interivew I have no intrest in talking to him - ever - again - in my life - its bad enough that I wasted part of my life, I think I would go fractionaly postal if I was to talk to him -shit my blood boils just thinking about it. Okay I am calm now ready to inteview. Lets see shall I identify myself as clark k, jimmy o, Ben Hadbyyou, Ben Lurking or ...... (can't id myself to after I get thru). Sutol Rewolf - thats menot
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Date: Thurs, Jul 27, 2000 at 21:22:34 (GMT)
From: SB
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: I did. No answer for me either. nt
Message:
koolaid
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Date: Thurs, Jul 27, 2000 at 20:21:13 (GMT)
From: EV
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Jim ---caller ID ......Duuuuhhh!! NT
Message:
NT
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Date: Fri, Jul 28, 2000 at 01:20:06 (GMT)
From: Ben Lurking
Email: Whats the number
To: EV
Subject: Jim ---caller ID ......Duuuuhhh!! NT
Message:
Whats the number I'll call fromn work and see if they answer
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Date: Fri, Jul 28, 2000 at 01:21:57 (GMT)
From: Ben Lurking
Email: None
To: Ben Lurking
Subject: Jim ---caller ID ......Duuuuhhh!! NT
Message:
Did you let them know you were with Horse and Hound, or Screw the Gurew?
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Date: Thurs, Jul 27, 2000 at 16:31:29 (GMT)
From: Joe
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Good job, Jim. Did you request a picture? (NT)
Message:
nt
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Date: Thurs, Jul 27, 2000 at 16:11:10 (GMT)
From: P-man
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: fucking hysterical (nt)
Message:
nt
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Date: Fri, Jul 28, 2000 at 12:50:22 (GMT)
From: Salam
Email: None
To: P-man
Subject: You cracking me up...help can't stop laughing!..nt
Message:
nt
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Date: Thurs, Jul 27, 2000 at 11:36:59 (GMT)
From: Salam
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: 15,000,000 and counting
Message:
he saw a dilapidated structure atop an isolated mountain and it caught his eye. The leaking bungalow, built as a weekend retreat by a Hollywood director, was some way off from the celebrated beach-side community.

EV

He lives in Malibu, California. Scott Perry has been there: 'I would easily estimate it's worth at least 2,000,000 to 3,000,000. It is a palatial, gated estate sitting atop a mountain with a spectacular view of the Pacific Ocean far below.' We've also had a report from a local realtor who says the mansion has recently been rebuilt and expanded, and now includes such essentials as heated marble floors, electric windows and a 2,000,000 music studio. His estimate is that it's worth a minimum of 15,000,000.

[All fig in U.S. dollers]

from { http://www.caic.org.au/eastern/elan-faq.htm }

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Date: Thurs, Jul 27, 2000 at 15:15:02 (GMT)
From: hamzen
Email: None
To: Salam
Subject: Greater than 400 million dollars for techno toys?
Message:
I know the figures are somewhere for the cost of buying all the planes, anybody have them handy?

020,000,000----present plane
--------------past planes
135,000,000----fuel costs for flying planes
---------------helicopter
---------------yacht
--2,000,000----music studio
---------------materials for house
---------------houses all over the world
---------------Amaroo
---------------cars
---------------business investments
---------------vehicles

------------
400,000,000 ??

Fuel costs are based on present prices, say 300 hours a year for thirty years.

Can anyone fill in the gaps, or question the assumptions?
And this leaves out the free gifts, the copious amounts of drugs and alcohol, the Armani suits, the house for his mistress etc etc

And to think he did all this for us when it could have gone into, DUO say, and just so we could learn not to have concepts about the perfect master. He really did value us.

Except we've all left, so it's wasted money.

What a long, strange very expensive trip it's been.

There is only one thing that comes to mind,
this is a fucking obscenity.

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Date: Thurs, Jul 27, 2000 at 11:46:41 (GMT)
From: bill
Email: None
To: Salam
Subject: 15,000,000 and counting
Message:
The new house, built with mostly free or 50 dollar a week premies who, by the way, didnt have an 8 hour day,
It was built on a 'floating' foundation. That is a design for earthquakes where the house actually is not connected to the ground. It sits on top of a gravel type base. It might shift in a quake, but it would not crack.

It has just about the only residential heliport in LA. And that was only because he/WE put in a 10,000 gallon tank of water for the fire fighting helicopters to use if there is a fire in the area. Another perk that would raise the price of the land. Also, the property bought in the 90's that allow him to drive directly to the PCHighway increases value.

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Date: Fri, Jul 28, 2000 at 01:31:25 (GMT)
From: Salam
Email: None
To: Joet
Subject: How much Amaroo cost?
Message:
Joey,

You must be an Australian, guessing by your little pouch. Do you know how much Amaroo cost. Can not you find someone to contact the land register or Amaroo council to find out?

Salam

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Date: Sat, Jul 29, 2000 at 04:07:30 (GMT)
From: G
Email: None
To: Salam
Subject: How much Amaroo cost?
Message:
Joey,

If you're interested, here's some info from my post 'Ivorys Rock conference Centre':

Ivorys Rock Conference Centre
Peak Crossings
Tel: (07) 5464 8200

and

Garth Moore, Ipswich City Council (07) 3810 6252'

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Date: Sat, Jul 29, 2000 at 04:29:25 (GMT)
From: Salam
Email: None
To: G
Subject: G. you are king, see if I can ring the council
Message:
for a little chat next week, hey?
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Date: Sat, Jul 29, 2000 at 04:53:02 (GMT)
From: G
Email: None
To: Salam
Subject: sounds good (nt)
Message:
nt
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Date: Thurs, Jul 27, 2000 at 01:10:53 (GMT)
From: Joe
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: Suggestion re DLM/EV Papers
Message:
J-M has done an excellent job pulling together a lot of the proof for the stuff we talk about here regarding the Maharaji cult, including his claims to be god, his instilling fear into his followers, his demands for devotion, the ashram, darshan etc. and it's really powerful. Every time I go into the site I find new morsels of information, pictures, etc. [By the way, I encourage ex-premies to copy stuff from J-Ms site, and use it liberally to provide proof about what Maharaji is now denying. It's great to bring that stuff up into the forum for the world to see -- especially premies and aspirants.]

But I have one suggestion. I think 'DLM/EV Papers' sounds REALLY dry, like you are going to see dense transcripts of Shri Hans pontificating, or corporate documents of cult corporations. It has that stuff, but it has LOTS more that is really interesting and it's really accessible. So, I think it should be re-named. And maybe we could come up with some suggestions. I'm sure J-M wouldn't mind.

I have a couple:

History and Background of the Maharaji Cult

Maharaji's words and deeds that he wishes you didn't know

I know, not the best, but others probably have ideas.

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Date: Thurs, Jul 27, 2000 at 09:27:07 (GMT)
From: Sir Dave
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: More eye catching links
Message:
I'd change it to DLM/Elan Vital History which is short and sweet but its present title is good because it's innocuous. What I would do is have the links at the top of this forum more flashy and eye catching. Many visitors don't even notice the links at the top which is evident since there's people on the forum who ask where the DLM/Elan Vital Papers site is.

On my site I put icons with the links to grab people's attention. Something similar at the top of this page would be beneficial.

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Date: Thurs, Jul 27, 2000 at 23:38:29 (GMT)
From: Joey
Email: None
To: Sir Dave
Subject: I agree, Sir D, and good point about links (nt)
Message:
nt
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Date: Thurs, Jul 27, 2000 at 07:44:52 (GMT)
From: AJW
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: 'Forgotten Secrets of the Crazy Guru Cult' (nt)
Message:
no tea
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Date: Fri, Jul 28, 2000 at 01:35:53 (GMT)
From: Salam
Email: None
To: AJW
Subject: 'How to get shaffted by a Guru in 7 Days'..nt
Message:
nt
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Date: Thurs, Jul 27, 2000 at 09:08:06 (GMT)
From: Jean-Michel
Email: None
To: AJW
Subject: No tea ..... only wine?
Message:
did you check that new cellar?
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Date: Thurs, Jul 27, 2000 at 12:03:32 (GMT)
From: AJW
Email: None
To: Jean-Michel
Subject: No tea ..... only wine?
Message:
Bonjour Jean-Michel,

I'll be there at the weekend, with a handful of money.

A Samedi

Anth le vin rouge

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Date: Thurs, Jul 27, 2000 at 01:19:46 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: How about 'Who WAS Guru Maharaj Ji?'
Message:
Joe,

I agree again (that's twice now). I also think that one of these days we could and should spruce up everything. Why not? Every other web site does? There are so many ways we could make this place a bit more attractive and easy to navigate.

For example, Daneane had an interesting idea the other day. How about little capsule bio's -- mini 'Journey's if you will -- on regular posters? Maybe even pic's (oh sorry, I forgot about the Sarin gas). Okay, no pics. Okay, no bio's. I forgot we're fugitives. Sigh ....

Alright, there ARE other things. And no, I'm not the guy who knows how to do this. But it doesn't mean we can't talk about it. Improvements, I mean.

And how ABOUT that name, 'Who was Guru Maharaj Ji?'

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Date: Thurs, Jul 27, 2000 at 16:24:46 (GMT)
From: Joe
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: How About Just 'Who Was Maharaji?'
Message:
That's short and sweet and there is no confusion added by the word 'guru' that the newly indoctrinated premie might not even know about.

I like the short bio and picture idea too. When you mentioned it, I thought of something else. A couple of years ago, I found a picture from Hans Jayanti '75 in Orlando, that my brother took of me, in which I look like the most raving, children-of-god-type cult-member you could imagine. I'm about 30 pounds under-weight, look exhausted, I have a really bad haircut, I'm wearing one of those Mexican wedding shirts and draw-string pants, and Earth Shoes. That, next to a current picture, in which I hope I don't look that way, would be funny. Maybe each of us could come up with similar 'before and after' pictures.

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Date: Thurs, Jul 27, 2000 at 16:38:52 (GMT)
From: AJW
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: Before and After.
Message:
Before- thin, plenty of hair (all brown), no money, sad, sickly, smile, mentally challenged.

After- fat, balding and grey, loadsamoney, angry, vengence-filled, you ain't seen nothing yet, crazy grin.

Anth no longer mentally challenged, just mental.

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Date: Thurs, Jul 27, 2000 at 02:59:24 (GMT)
From: la-ex
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: How about 'Who WAS Guru Maharaj Ji?'
Message:
I agree. A little spiffier title would be nice.

I'm also wondering about video,kind of like the one that m has, where you click on a face and get a 30 second message.
I think it's very effective.

Maybe the person could talk a little bit about their background and why they are qualified to know something about the m's other side, and then give the other side to some of m's recent quotes.

I like Who was gm?

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Date: Thurs, Jul 27, 2000 at 11:33:22 (GMT)
From: bill
Email: None
To: la-ex
Subject: How about 'Who WAS Guru Maharaj Ji?'
Message:
can anyone get the video's from the second amaroo series?
In it he tells a story about his father that is very damning although he didnt think so. JM?
It makes a good print story but also, it would be god..oops I mean good streaming video clip.

Also, the video from England where it was the first global live event. in it he said angrily to 'stop complaining' that would be funny.

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Date: Thurs, Jul 27, 2000 at 13:18:40 (GMT)
From: Jean-Michel
Email: None
To: bill
Subject: Which video?
Message:
Do you have the dates ? I own so many of them .....
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Date: Thurs, Jul 27, 2000 at 15:42:00 (GMT)
From: bill
Email: None
To: Jean-Michel
Subject: Which video?
Message:
I believe it was a morning event and it was the second amaroo event maybe around 94 or so.
It was a story about his dad refuseing a dinner invitation in the most rawatian way. Something like threatening the guy with hundreds of lifetimes of some calamity for his offer which the lord thought was a slight. IT really is is a classic and also shows how deluded rawat junior is to even tell it. Thinking somehow it cows the premies to -watch it-, the master can do these kinds of things.

Hope that helps.

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Date: Thurs, Jul 27, 2000 at 16:59:48 (GMT)
From: Joe
Email: None
To: bill
Subject: Rawat in Amaroo
Message:
I get the feeling that Maharaji feels freer to be his old god-self in Amaroo, maybe because he thinks it's out of the way and no one will notice.

For example, he still gives darshan there, but wouldn't DARE give darshan in North America or Europe.

Also, I heard a tape of him from Amaroo in 1997 in which he RANTED at the premies. He was really negative, criticizing them for complaining, etc. It was the way I used to him talk when he was pissed off. It was like he really hated the premies.

Then he told this story, bragging about how his daughter took some exam and got into this pricey private school. It reminded me of the time Maharaji bragged about how cool his new Ferrari was. It was REALLY condescending and out of touch with ordinary people, especially considering how Maharaji denigraded education and worldly ambition in years past. Anyhow, he didn't mention that his daughter was waited on by servants since she was born, and every advantage, including tutors or whatever were available, and that she had the money to go to whatever school she desired.

He also didn't mention the many of his followers who trashed their educations to devote their lives to him, and that many of them helped provide the money so his kid could go to Radcliffe or whatever. Since he was talking to some of those people, it was amazing that Maharaji didn't see how insulting he was.

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Date: Fri, Jul 28, 2000 at 01:52:14 (GMT)
From: bill
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: Rawat in Amaroo
Message:
i for one think that ole premlata has been here at the forum defending dear old meglomaniac dad.
Not that I can pick out her posts.
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Date: Fri, Jul 28, 2000 at 21:42:21 (GMT)
From: Zelda
Email: None
To: everyone
Subject: Rawat in Amaroo -video of blonde
Message:
I saw one that was seemed to be an advertisement for Amaroo or something like that.
It showed Mojo in a dry field admiring sky and land and trimmed with premies doing the same to him.
That was ok enough BUT THEN this leggy blonde starts a slow motion run towards him and every move was perfectly matched peotry- 'though she ran gracefully only to be closer to his divine zone one could see that his movements were perfectly syncronized like like Fred Astair and White Tina Turner'
It was so obvious- she was the only one of the devottees in the clearing.
Art porn sells tent spaces apparently.
It was embarrassing to watch because it was a very naive in a way.

Later when I found out Mojo edits the videos it made me feel ill.

(The faces on the crowd watching the video were hilarious. Smiling, surprised and perplexed. I peeked at them because I was dumbfounded)

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Date: Thurs, Jul 27, 2000 at 02:31:21 (GMT)
From: Salam
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: As Mel Said in a previous thread, it is only a
Message:
change. What I hate when entering this site is having to see two large buttons of Gum Ji, which take over third of the space of the front page, if these were resized to the size of a fly shit, then more links can be inserted , such as the DML/EV which sounds like a mathamatical puzzle {not that I deny that there is tremendous amount of information here, but we are talking about the name only}, maybe a link such as ' Ex-premie vs Maharaji debate'. Probably better use 'Why did we walk away'. The first will defenitly indicate seperation for Gum Ji, the secound is more like a countinous thing, but probably I could be talking about something different!!!!!!!!!

Salam-shaffted

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Date: Thurs, Jul 27, 2000 at 12:36:53 (GMT)
From: Zelda
Email: None
To: Salam
Subject: As Mel Said in a previous thread, it is only a
Message:
Salam
I too cringe and feel my chest constrict when I see those buttons on the front page. It is traumatic
I now look away and see if the trash needs empting
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Date: Fri, Jul 28, 2000 at 11:51:34 (GMT)
From: salam
Email: None
To: Zelda
Subject: As Mel Said in a previous thread, it is only a
Message:
I woluld have made something interesting out of these pic, say for example make his cloths fall off him when clicking or making a sound like aahhooooch, makes it more interesting.
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Date: Wed, Jul 26, 2000 at 21:11:21 (GMT)
From: Joe
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: Elan Vital Is a Church but not A Religion (Huh?)
Message:
I wanted to bring up a discussion from down below, about how Elan Vital claims it isn't a religion. However, Elan Vital is classified by the IRS as a CHURCH. The advantages to being a church, as opposed to a non-profit charity or educational corporation is that you don't have to file tax returns and the financial information doesn't have to be made available to the public like is required of all other non-profits. Isn't this hypocritical? Elan Vital isn't a religion, but when it's in its financial and secrecy interests to do so, it categorizes itself as such.

Below is the information from a website Joey found that lists the information. Note that donations to EV are tax deductible, but they don't have to file returns or disclose any information.

Elan Vital, Inc.
PO Box 6130
Malibu, CA 90264-6130

Program / Activities:Information currently not available in database

Financial Info:
Assets: $ 0

Income: $ 0

This organization is not required to file an annual return with the IRS because it is a church.

EIN:
23-7174539

Ruling Year:
1971

For individual tax filers who itemize federal income tax deductions, a cash donation to this public charity is fully deductible up to 50% of the taxpayer's adjusted gross income (AGI). Special rules may apply to certain noncash donations and to contributions not made by individuals; consult your tax adviser.

If this information was made public, I would like to know how much of Elan Vital's money is paid to Prime Resources, LLC, and Seva Corporation, and to other 'for-profit' corporations also run by cult members, and how much of that eventually ends up in the pockets of the former Lord of the Universe himself.


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Date: Thurs, Jul 27, 2000 at 17:31:32 (GMT)
From: cq
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: Elan Vital Is a Church but not A Religion (Huh?)
Message:
Hey Joe, (hey - wasn't that a Hendrix number?)

I recently emailed the site that lists the info you give above. I wanted to know what their source was for that information.

Their reply was as follows:


'We received the information on this organization from the coding that was done by the IRS on the Business Master File.

If this information is incorrect please send us a copy of your Letter of Determination to our fax at (757)229-8912 or mail to us at 427 Scotland Street, Williamsburg, VA 23185.'

--------------

Any idea what the 'Business Master File' is?

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Date: Thurs, Jul 27, 2000 at 01:18:46 (GMT)
From: Joey
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: Elan Vital Is a Church but not A Religion (Huh?)
Message:
I wanted to bring up a discussion from down below, about how Elan Vital claims it isn't a religion. However, Elan Vital is classified by the IRS as a CHURCH. The advantages to being a church, as opposed to a non-profit charity or educational corporation is that you don't have to file tax returns and the financial information doesn't have to be made available to the public like is required of all other non-profits. Isn't this hypocritical? Elan Vital isn't a religion, but when it's in its financial and secrecy interests to do so, it categorizes itself as such.

Hypocritical, you ask? Given all the claims they make on their website, as to how Maharaji is NOT a religious or spiritual leader, and that Knowledge has NOTHING to do with religion, it seems to be the epitome of hypocrisy. It almost leaves one scratching your head, trying to figure out how they can get away with it, and wondering if there isn't due cause for the IRS to be contacted and notified about the claims EV makes on their website, as to NOT having anything to do with religion and yet benefitting from their 'church' status at the same time, in that they don't have to make ANY declarations to the IRS...zip, gornisht, rien de tout!

(Certainly if EV in the U.S. would lose their church status they would then be obliged to fill out a form 990, which by law are made available to the public and containing much financial info, and that would give us a powerful tool to keep track of what they're really up to and how they might be deceiving the IRS.)
However we know that Robert Jacobs is one of the top tax lawyers in the U.S. and that somehow there has got to be a legal basis for what on the face of it seems to be an utter sham.

So I set out to do some layman's research with a tip from a guidestar employee with whom I spoke on the phone last week, to visit this website- ( http://www.irs.gov ) where I might possibly find an explanation or at least more information.
Now here's what I came up with from the Internal Revenue Code applicable to this situation, that might just provide the answer as to how EV gets away with it.

[7.8.2] 3.6.4 (02-23-1999)
Validity of Religious Belief
In making a determination whether a religious organization qualifies for exemption under IRC 501(c)(3), the Internal Revenue Service cannot pass judgment on the merits of the applicant's asserted religious belief.
Accordingly, proof of entitlement to exemption does not include proving the validity of the religious doctrines or beliefs of the applicant or its members. It is the government's duty to 'make room for as wide a variety of beliefs and creeds as the spiritual needs of man deem necessary.'Zorach v. Clausen , 343 U.S. 306 (1952).
This concept is also discussed in U.S. v. Ballard , 322 U.S. 78 (1943), in which the Court stated 'The Fathers of the Constitution were not unaware of the varied and extreme views of religious sects, of the violence of disagreement among them, and of the lack of any one religious creed on which all men would agree. They fashioned a charter of government which envisaged the widest possible toleration of conflicting views...The religious views espoused by respondents might seem incredible, if not preposterous, to most people. But if those doctrines are subject to trial before a jury charged with finding their truth or falsity, then the same can be done with the religious beliefs of any sect. When the triers of fact undertake that task, they enter a forbidden domain.'
[7.8.2] 3.6.5 (02-23-1999)
Religious Belief Defined
The term 'religious' as used in IRC 501(c)(3) is not subject to precise definition. The leading interpretation of the term was made by the Supreme Court in United States v. Seeger , 380 U.S. 163 (1965), in which the Court interpreted the phrase 'religious training and belief' as used in the Universal Military Training and Service Act, 50 U.S.C. section 456 (j), in determining an individual's eligibility for exemption from military service on religious grounds. The Court formulated the following definition: 'A sincere and meaningful belief which occupies in the life of its possessor a place parallel to that filled by the God of those admittedly qualifying for the exemption comes within the statutory definition.'
The Court elaborated upon the Seeger definition in Welsh v. United States , 398 U.S. 33 (1970), stating that '[i]f an individual deeply and sincerely holds beliefs that are purely ethical or moral in source and content but that nevertheless impose upon him a duty of conscience to refrain from participating in any war at any time, those beliefs certainly occupy in the life of that individual a place parallel to that filled by... God in the lives of traditionally religious persons.' Thus, religious beliefs include many beliefs (for example, Taoism, Buddhism, and Secular Humanism) that do not posit the existence of a Supreme Being in the conventional sense.
(emphasis my own and precise address for the above )- http://www.irs.gov/prod/bus_info/tax_pro/irm-part/part07/36070a.html#ss47

Joe, you certainly have more legal knowledge than this total layman, and I would cetainly welcome your feedback on this.

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Date: Thurs, Jul 27, 2000 at 17:47:05 (GMT)
From: cq
Email: None
To: Joey
Subject: Excellent contact there, Joey. But I thought ...
Message:
... even from the early days of DLM, the message was that it had nothing to do with beliefs.

And now it apparently has nothing to do with religion OR spirituality either (I can find the quotes for you, if need be).

I think a representation to the IRS expressing our concerns, - especially since the Maha has OBVIOUSLY profited from his 'non-profit' status - would be a Very Good Idea.

You?

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Date: Thurs, Jul 27, 2000 at 18:26:24 (GMT)
From: Joey
Email: None
To: cq
Subject: Excellent contact there, Joey. But I thought ...
Message:
... even from the early days of DLM, the message was that it had nothing to do with beliefs.
And now it apparently has nothing to do with religion OR spirituality either (I can find the quotes for you, if need be).

I have enough quotes, thank you, that won't be necessary.

I think a representation to the IRS expressing our concerns, - especially since the Maha has OBVIOUSLY profited from his 'non-profit' status - would be a Very Good Idea.

Well of course, he HAS benefitted from his 'non-profit' status. I believe the IRS is very well aware of that already, and I'm aware of previous contacts and reports to the IRS by ex-premies.
To date the IRS has not found any wrong doing on M's or EV's part that would justify laying charges against him for tax-fraud or removing EV's non-profit status.

What I was speculating about in my above post was appealing to the IRS to remove EV's 'church' status. That would make them more accountable to the public in that they would be obliged to fill out a form 990 (something they don't have to do now BECAUSE of their church status), giving us a greater facility to monitor their financial activities, in order to file even more reports to the IRS in the future, where we would find in these form 990's information that just didn't jive with the reality of the cult as we know it. (Or where we had information that contradicted the information in the form 990.)

However that particular portion of the Internal Revenue Code that I referred to in my above post might just provide them with a basis in law to claim 'church' status to the IRS, while claiming to the rest of the world that they have nothing to do with religion or spirituality. That's what I'm not sure of and that's what I plan to get a legal opinion about from the tops in the field.

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Date: Thurs, Jul 27, 2000 at 18:54:06 (GMT)
From: cq
Email: quartus@postmaster.co.uk
To: Joey
Subject: Excellent contact there, Joey. But I thought ...
Message:
Don't forget to share your findings with the rest of us now, Joey! - even if only via email (see above).

PS - why are you so sure the IRS is aware that he HAS profited?

And didn't I read recently that there was a premie mole in IRS?

I say: pool our resources, share the information, let EVERY contributor to ex-premie.org take whatever credit there might be in getting this conman sorted - SOON!

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Date: Thurs, Jul 27, 2000 at 19:33:10 (GMT)
From: Joey
Email: None
To: cq
Subject: Excellent contact there, Joey. But I thought ...
Message:
Don't forget to share your findings with the rest of us now, Joey! - even if only via email (see above).

You bet, I will. Isn't that what I'm doing now?

PS - why are you so sure the IRS is aware that he HAS profited?

As I said because of previous representations made to the IRS by exes. Hopefully, sooner or later the walls of Malibu have to come tumbling down (metaphysically speaking of course :)

And didn't I read recently that there was a premie mole in IRS?

Could be. Then again it could be meaningless gossip.

I say: pool our resources, share the information, let EVERY contributor to ex-premie.org take whatever credit there might be in getting this conman sorted - SOON!

This forum represents a pooling of resources. Off forum communication as well. Then again, there's a fine art to whistle blowing, and certainly when it comes to whistle blowing, discretion is always the better part of valor.

Cheers, cq !

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Date: Thurs, Jul 27, 2000 at 18:40:01 (GMT)
From: Joey
Email: None
To: cq
Subject: ps-cq
Message:
I just noticed Joe's post below (Registry of Charitable Trusts-Joey?) where he says the following.
A lot of things can be considered a 'church.' Again, it's a big loophole.
That's precisely my fear. That the legal reference quoted in my above post might constitute the loophole.
Again, given EV's outlandish claims on their website that they have NOTHING to do with spirituality or religion, I want to have a legal opinion from the tops in the field.

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Date: Thurs, Jul 27, 2000 at 18:55:51 (GMT)
From: cq
Email: None
To: Joey
Subject: You got a contact? Go for it! Ditto everyone (nt)
Message:
Irons in the fire ... non?
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Date: Thurs, Jul 27, 2000 at 16:12:54 (GMT)
From: Eyecatcher
Email: None
To: Joey
Subject: Doing the same the as The CHURCH of Scientology (n
Message:
eee
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Date: Thurs, Jul 27, 2000 at 04:58:59 (GMT)
From: Selene
Email: None
To: Joey
Subject: RE: the link to Guidestar
Message:
Question:
They Call themselves, at least on the Guidestar link.

Elan Vital Inc.
(the focus of my question being on the Inc. part of their name)

My vague recollections of business law:
One can apply for incorporation just by applying for a business license..but.... it is a BUSINESS license.

So, my question; Isn't there a conflict between calling oneself a corporation/business and a church? I'm confused.

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Date: Thurs, Jul 27, 2000 at 16:29:22 (GMT)
From: Joe
Email: None
To: Selene
Subject: I think I know the answer
Message:
Elan Vital is incorporated, but incorporated as a non-profit corporation, and categorized by the IRS as a church for tax purposes. Lots of churches are incorporated.

But you don't have to be incorporated to get a business license (if you need a business license to operate). You can do that as an individual, a partnership, or just an association of people.

Most entities incorporate to shield the individuals in the corporation from liability for what the corporation does.

Elan Vital was incorporated in Colorado as Divine Light Mission in 1971 and then changed its name to Elan Vital in 1986. At some point they made their case to the IRS that it is a church, and I guess the IRS accepted that.

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Date: Thurs, Jul 27, 2000 at 05:54:18 (GMT)
From: Joey
Email: None
To: Selene
Subject: RE: the link to Guidestar
Message:
I think the answer would be no. There would be no conflict. But we could email guidestar just to be sure. Or maybe Joe could chime in if he's gotta sure answer to that one.
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Date: Thurs, Jul 27, 2000 at 11:38:04 (GMT)
From: bill
Email: None
To: Joey
Subject: RE: the link to Guidestar
Message:
another one for the IRS to review.

Probably the only Inc. in the religious exempt list
Scientology Inc? they wouldnt dare, they struggled against the IRS for a long time.

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Date: Fri, Jul 28, 2000 at 01:16:42 (GMT)
From: G
Email: None
To: bill
Subject: Info on Elan Vital from IRS web site
Message:
From
http://www.irs.ustreas.gov/plain/tax_stats/soi/ex_imf.html
Tax Statistics - Tax Exempt / Employee Plans Statistics
- States - California

Extracted from file eo_ca.exe:

Employer Identification Number (EIN): 237174539
(assigned by IRS to identify an account)

Primary Name of Organization: ELAN VITAL INC

In Care of Name: blank
(party (officer, director, etc.) to whose attention any correspondence should be directed)

Street Address: PO BOX 6130
City: MALIBU
State: CA
Zip Code: 90264-6130

Group Exemption Number: 0000
(internal # assigned to central/parent orgs holding group determination letters)

Affiliation Code: 3 (Independent)

Subsection Code: 03
Classification Code(s): 1___ (Charitable Organization)

Ruling Date: 197112

Deductibility Code: 1 (Contributions are deductible)
Foundation Code: 10 (Church)

Activity Codes: 059 001 000
(Other school related activities; Church, synagogue, etc; -)

Organization Code: 1 (Corporation)

District of Jurisdiction: 95 (IRS District Office)

Advance Ruling Expiration Date: 000000

Tax Period: ______

Asset Code: 0
Income Code: 0

Filing Requirement Code: 060 (Not required to file (church); No 990PF return)

Blanks: ___

Accounting Period: 12 (accounting period ending date (MM))

Asset Amount: blank
Income Amount: blank
National Taxonomy of Exempt Entities (NTEE) Code: blank
Sort Name (Secondary Name Line): blank

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Date: Fri, Jul 28, 2000 at 09:51:55 (GMT)
From: sb
Email: None
To: G
Subject: FUCKING SICKENING!!!
Message:
HELP!!!!.....
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Date: Fri, Jul 28, 2000 at 02:32:44 (GMT)
From: Joey
Email: None
To: G
Subject: Way to go, G !!
Message:
Up until now the only documentation we had of EV being classified as a church by the IRS, came from guidestar and the Chief US Army Chaplain.

I was actually told by a professional affiliated with the AFF not to take their word for it, but to do the research thoroughly and get confirmation from the IRS itself.

I was looking for this, but couldn't find it on my own.

This is brilliant! Thank you !!

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Date: Thurs, Jul 27, 2000 at 03:11:38 (GMT)
From: bill
Email: None
To: Joey
Subject: If elan and rawat claim NOT to be a religion as
Message:
they certainly do now, the IRS would take another look. If we claim it is not, the IRS would let us know the result of thier new investigation. AND the claims made to it on behalf of the (non religion)rawat and his appreciative volunteers.
We should make them have that meeting with the irs and the state agencies.
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Date: Wed, Jul 26, 2000 at 23:47:16 (GMT)
From: Ben Lurking
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: Elan Vital Is a Church but not A Religion (Huh?)
Message:
I wonder what the churches plan is when the teacher dies? Will there be a money / power grab? Has m left vital instructions in case of his demise, I wonder what head hunter you use for a new speaker / teacher?
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Date: Thurs, Jul 27, 2000 at 00:19:25 (GMT)
From: Joe
Email: None
To: Ben Lurking
Subject: Elan Vital Is a Church but not A Religion (Huh?)
Message:
I bet it will be one of the kids. It seems the daughters are already part of the cult machine/business, 'working' at Visions and 'performing' at events. One never seems to hear about or see the boys, though.
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Date: Thurs, Jul 27, 2000 at 11:45:28 (GMT)
From: Salam
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: WAHADAMAR Inc
Message:
Maharaji and Marolyn have three* children; Hansi who lives at home, Prem Lata who dropped out of college after a year, and Daya Lata who is the new star singer for Elan Vital. (*Editor's note: we've since heard that M has created a company owned by his children called WAHADAMAR Inc. We're told it's a derivation of his children's names: WAdi, HAnsi, DAya and AMAR... so perhaps there are four.) It will be interesting to see if any of them take over the family crown in the same manner as Maharaji did from his father.
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Date: Thurs, Jul 27, 2000 at 11:57:58 (GMT)
From: bill
Email: None
To: Salam
Subject: WAHADAMAR Inc
Message:
Amar was born in 1981 and our lord held his feet up for the instructors and said, 'you can tell the perfect master by his feet'.
The smiling buddha statues you see in gardens is the imagined coming buddha of the future. He is rumoured to be destined to have 3 kids. When Amar was born, our lord said that 'they didnt know about this one' referring to the 3 child idea.
But, he already topped the 3 kid prophecy by having a child with Claudia (raja ji's wife) and she is called Navlata (new vine)
Premlata means (vine of love). So, that makes 5.
Not counting the abortions he had with different mistresses as was confirmed to us by our Malibu reporter.

The premie world in Miami was all abuzz the day after Amar was born because it was said (through the usual channels that gave us our daily 'what he did today' reports) that our lord had Marolyn get on a swing and swung her till she went into labor
(bet that hurt) because he wanted Amar born on christmas.
The grapevine at DECA would NEVER have made that one up. Who could have thunk it up? We werent allowed to think so wildly, plus who would dare go against the lord in 1981 when he was at his absolute peak of 'I am the Ultimate phase' ...(see the 'I am always with you' excerpt located on JM, web pages to see what he was thinking in 81.

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Date: Wed, Jul 26, 2000 at 21:13:01 (GMT)
From: Joe
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: Check it out at www.guidestar.org (nt)
Message:
nt
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Date: Wed, Jul 26, 2000 at 21:56:06 (GMT)
From: Joe
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: Cult Financial Disclosures
Message:
I note that Elan Vital also talks about how the majority of it's money is spent on things other than administration. Note, however, that at nowhere does Elan Vital say HOW MUCH money its 3600 contributors give, or how much they get from selling Visions crap.

I recall some time ago someone posted that Maharaji himself had a meeting with premies and got up with graphs and charts to show how donated money was spent. But as someone pointed out, there was only graphs and percentages THERE WAS NO DISCLOSURE OF ACTUAL DOLLAR AMOUNTS.

Doesn't this bother any of the '3600 donators?' Don't they think they deserve some disclosure?

But, if each of those 3600 donated $50 a month (the preferred payment being an automatic charge on a credit card), that would be $2.2 million a year. And that doesn't count money from events, sales, etc., and it doesn't include money donated directly to Maharaji.

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Date: Thurs, Jul 27, 2000 at 05:02:31 (GMT)
From: Joey
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: I think your estimate is just about spot on, Joe
Message:
But, if each of those 3600 donated $50 a month (the preferred payment being an automatic charge on a credit card), that would be $2.2 million a year

That of course would constitute official donations for which official receipts have been issued and I have the official numbers from EV Canada, as declared on their 'registered charity information return' which I've obtained from Revenue Canada.
The number is $577,326 (Canadian Dollars)

Based on the fact that EV Canada claims 600 financial contributors on their website ( http://www.elanvital.ca ) if we multiply by 6 (to get the 3600 financial contributors in the U.S.) you get $3,463,956 (Canadian).

Converting that into U.S. Dollars at a rate of .68 you get $2,355,490 (U.S.)

And that doesn't count money from events, sales, etc.

And I have precise numbers for those too. But in a nutshell it all adds up to another $210,000 (Can) here in Canada (although I wouldn't take the numbers for anonymous cash donations declared by EV Can at face value, as I would the figure for donations where official tax receipts have been issued.)

Projecting that onto the U.S. situation we then have another $856,OOO (U.S.) for a total of gross revenue for EV -U.S. of $3.2 million dollars (U.S.) and change.

As you said that doesn't include money sent to M directly nor would it include donations made directly to the Elan Vital Foundation (EVF) in Switzerland.

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Date: Thurs, Jul 27, 2000 at 20:22:44 (GMT)
From: Joey
Email: None
To: Joey
Subject: my revised estimate estimate for EV -U.S.
Message:
Given that I suspect there may very well be some fudging on anonymous cash donations in the EV Canada reports, that is, I suspect that they may be higher than reported...AND, given that there's generally speaking more affluence in the U.S. as opposed to Canada...I'm revising my estimate for EV -U.S. gross annual revenue to be in the vicinity of $4.5 million.

Again, this figure would NOT include monies sent by premies directly to m or to EVF-Switzerland.

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Date: Fri, Jul 28, 2000 at 15:54:50 (GMT)
From: Katie
Email: None
To: Joey
Subject: Other 'givers'
Message:
Again, this figure would NOT include monies sent by premies directly to m or to EVF-Switzerland.

I have heard from a recent ex who I trust that whenever Maharaji needs money for a 'special project' (for example, trying to shut down ex-premie websites - snicker!), there are about 100 quite wealthy premies around the world that he or EV can call directly for large donations. (BTW, did you know that under US law, personal 'gifts' of $10,000 or less per year are non-taxable? And of course these personal 'gifts' could be made to all members of Maharaji's family, etc. I am not sure if there are tax advantage for the giver, but I doubt it.) Anyway, I am not sure if this money gets funneled through EV or if it is a direct gift to Maharaji.

Anyway, good job on getting all these figures together, Joey and G. If you can write a comprehensive web page on this information, then J-M may be interested in putting it onto ex-premie org.

TC -
Katie

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Date: Fri, Jul 28, 2000 at 18:39:38 (GMT)
From: Lakota
Email: None
To: Katie
Subject: Other 'givers'
Message:
Good point Katie.

Wonder who the Delaskies were thinking of back in 1998:

October 8, 1998
Why Sell When the Chips Are Down?

But that is not how it was supposed to be. Deltek originally made its filing at the beginning of August, before the recent market correction. At the time, the company was to sell 500,000 shares to raise $10 million for acquisitions, investments and other working capital. Donald and Kenneth deLaski, a father/son team who has run the company since its founding 15 years ago, owned most of the rest of the 2.9 million shares offered at $23.13 a share.

According to company sources, Donald, the 66-year-old chairman, is looking to retire. Kenneth, the 44-year-old president and chief executive, wanted to free up some money to give to charity. Together, the two men and their families wanted to unload $43 million worth of stock — nearly one quarter of their holdings.

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Date: Thurs, Jul 27, 2000 at 03:14:29 (GMT)
From: bill
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: Cult Financial Disclosures
Message:
those figures do not include india and other countries.
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Date: Thurs, Jul 27, 2000 at 10:44:45 (GMT)
From: Salam
Email: None
To: bill
Subject: Cult Financial Disclosures
Message:
This is the most interesting of things. Does anyone Know about other finnancial doos of the rest of the world?
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Date: Thurs, Jul 27, 2000 at 13:51:42 (GMT)
From: Jean-Michel
Email: None
To: Salam
Subject: Who's going to paint a good picture?
Message:
I'll be glad to make a new page or section for EPO out of it. All details on EV's income, testimonies of exes who've been taking care of this aspect. What's the EVF in Switzerland about, details on the various properties (Malibu/Seva, G4/Prime Resources, the yachts - Wadi Sue and Serenity - etc ....), how donations are 'suggested' (including EV's documents) etc .... I'm sure there's enough good writers here to do this.

BY THE WAY: I'm the one now in charge of taking care of the pages on EPO ..... Brian keeps taking care of the technical side and the forum's software. And I'm not the FA except for the French forum.

Please, don't harrass me with suggestions !!!!!! OK, do it if you like .....

My first plan: merge in EPO all the stuff that's now in the EV-DLM Papers, having new sections for this stuff. I'll consider your suggestions reg names for these new sections.

IF there's anybody skilled enough to make fancy pages, his help will be welcome. Otherwise I'll keep the old style for a while as it's easy for the layout.

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Date: Mon, Jul 31, 2000 at 13:53:16 (GMT)
From: Joe
Email: None
To: Jean-Michel
Subject: Excellent ideal, JM
Message:
I think merging the two sites is an excellent idea. Thanks again for all you fine work.
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Date: Mon, Jul 31, 2000 at 00:23:05 (GMT)
From: G
Email: None
To: Jean-Michel
Subject: Wadi Sue and Serenity
Message:
By 'Wadi Sue', do you mean something other than one of his daughter's nicknames? Do you have any info on Serenity? That's the name of the yacht, yes?
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Date: Mon, Jul 31, 2000 at 17:32:09 (GMT)
From: Joe
Email: None
To: G
Subject: Wadi Sue and Serenity
Message:
Back in 1980, Maharaji had a big yacht that he called the 'Wadi Sue' after his daughter, Premlata, whom he called that name.

I remember it was big, black and silver, and cost a lot of money, of course. Now, I understand he has a yacht that is a lot bigger and cost millions. He uses it to spread knowledge, of course, and when he doesn't he isn't 'attached' to it, so, of course, it's okay.

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Date: Mon, Jul 31, 2000 at 19:57:38 (GMT)
From: SB
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: He uses his yatch to squeeze the wealthy premies..
Message:
Tim, (I can't remember right now his last name) one of maharaji's dentist, from Miami, went many times for rides with 'the Lord'...It costed him dearly! maharaji asked Tim to buy an apartment for Charanand, which he did.

His yatch is another 'propagation tool' alright... But really it doesn't matter because all is an illusion, anyway, remember? The ONE who created all deserves all. Premies talk like that, not me. I hate the greedy bastard!

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Date: Thurs, Jul 27, 2000 at 15:43:43 (GMT)
From: bill
Email: None
To: Jean-Michel
Subject: Who's going to paint a good picture?
Message:
thank you for your efforts JM.
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Date: Wed, Jul 26, 2000 at 17:29:08 (GMT)
From: cq
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: Question for all you technical wizards out there
Message:

Does anyone know if it's possible to download ALL the threads AND messages in the Active Index in one fell swoop, and then read them all off-line?

(I'll soon be having to severely limit my time on-line, and would like to save each day's messages onto a floppy disk and read them at leisure - and without internet access!)

Any advice/suggestions welcome.

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Date: Wed, Jul 26, 2000 at 23:45:46 (GMT)
From: Sir Dave
Email: None
To: cq
Subject: Question for all you technical wizards out there
Message:
If you are in the forum using Internet Explorer, click on Favourites and then Add to Favourites and click the box which says Make available off line.

Click on Customize and then click all the next buttons until you get to the part where you can configure it to save pages 1,2,3 etc deep. Make sure you choose to save it 1 page deep, click all the rest of the buttons and it will download the forum and all the messages.

Later on, you can update it by going to the Tools menu and clicking on Synchronize and following the prompts.

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Date: Thurs, Jul 27, 2000 at 17:41:25 (GMT)
From: cq
Email: None
To: Sir Dave
Subject: Sounds like that could be v.useful for some, Sir D
Message:
... but you wouldn't know the equivalent procedure for Netscape Navigator, would you?

Not all of us use Internet Exploiter. (!)

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Date: Sun, Jul 30, 2000 at 16:12:19 (GMT)
From: G
Email: None
To: cq
Subject: Netscape, IE
Message:
As of Netscape v 4.7, there is not a procedure that I know of. You'll need some other software. The IE procedure described requires IE v5. You could try hotfiles.zdnet.com to find free software that you can download.
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Date: Thurs, Jul 27, 2000 at 17:39:05 (GMT)
From: ham
Email: None
To: Sir Dave
Subject: I'm on my knees, begging you please, help needed
Message:
Sir D, don't know if my mac version is differtent, I'm using version 4 of IE but no box for 'make available off line' unless you mean 'offline browsing' in the file menu, also no 'customise', no 'tools' menu, guess it must be an older version.

No points for guessing the song, loads of points for revealing your age by naming the song.

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Date: Fri, Jul 28, 2000 at 09:54:51 (GMT)
From: Sir Dave
Email: None
To: ham
Subject: I'm on my knees, begging you please, help needed
Message:
Of course, I'm looking at V5 of IE but I guess 'Offline browsing' would be the same thing on V4.

Dunno, is that a Tamla Motown song? Something like the Isely Brothers?

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Date: Fri, Jul 28, 2000 at 16:10:19 (GMT)
From: Jethro
Email: None
To: Sir Dave
Subject: Almost right SirDave
Message:
'Dunno, is that a Tamla Motown song? Something like the Isely Brothers? '

There was a song called 'Beging you' by Frankie Valli and the Four Seasons (the greates ever group). I'm sure hamzen will back me up.

Regards jethro

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Date: Fri, Jul 28, 2000 at 17:32:52 (GMT)
From: ham
Email: None
To: Jethro
Subject: Turn on Your Lovelight/Grateful Dead
Message:
But it was Pigpen singing it, so it could well have been an older fifties song,
Frankie Valli and the Four Reasons, who they?
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Date: Sun, Jul 30, 2000 at 16:27:23 (GMT)
From: G
Email: None
To: ham
Subject: Turn on Your Lovelight info
Message:
The original version is by Bobby 'Blue' Bland, for lyrics see

Turn On Your Lovelight (Scott/Malone)

and

Turn On Your Lovelight - As performed in Blues Brothers 2000

the lyrics differ a little.

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Date: Sun, Jul 30, 2000 at 22:07:12 (GMT)
From: ham
Email: None
To: G
Subject: Ha, you ole trainspotter you,
Message:
thought I was bad, but think you might be worse! :)

So g since we're off on a tangent here,
wanna chat?

Work? What music you into, other interests?

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Date: Mon, Jul 31, 2000 at 00:14:13 (GMT)
From: G
Email: None
To: ham
Subject: Who, me?
Message:
I had to look that one up, which probably means I am one.
trainspotter
Noun. Generally a usually intelligent but particularly anally retentive person; the person may be obsessed with trivia or an interest such as trainspotting, stamp collecting etc. Originates from the much ridiculed hobby of trainspotting. Compare with 'anorak' and 'nerd'. Derog.

Music:
Before I got fanatical I was big into rock and roll, Beatles, Led Zeppelin, Allman Bros, various other '70s hard rock greats, etc.
Then I was into premie music when I was a fanatical premie. I remember when asked by co-workers what kind of music I liked, I said 'devotional music'. They just looked at me. I thought premie music was by far the best music and it was the only music I listened to. Well, it was better than the new age put-you-to-sleep stuff he pushes on premies now. Ok, enough about that.

When the ashrams closed, I got back into other music. Now I like good music of just about any kind. I'm big into classical for now. I'm getting more into Miles Davis, I know someone who has almost everything Miles did. I like rock and roll, blues, jazz, world, latin (for dancing), a little country and bluegrass. Not much into rap and heavy metal, although there is some good heavy metal and a little bit of good rap. These are my opinions of course. Leaving out a lot, but that's mainly what I like.

Btw, I knew a some people who are really into the rave scene, one is a good dj. One was a co-worker who tried to get me to take e and go to a rave, but I was afraid I would go nuts. He turned me onto some house (or close to it) music, some of it very cool. They have loads of vinyl records, some of it rare. I should give them a call. What are your recommendations for house, etc?

Other interests: computer stuff, fractals, dancing, art, trying to figure out the big picture (without much luck) ...

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Date: Mon, Jul 31, 2000 at 05:43:43 (GMT)
From: ham
Email: None
To: G
Subject: Who, me?
Message:
I had to look that one up, which probably means I am one.
trainspotter
Noun. Generally a usually intelligent but particularly anally retentive person; the person may be obsessed with trivia or an interest such as trainspotting, stamp collecting etc. Originates from the much ridiculed hobby of trainspotting. Compare with 'anorak' and 'nerd'. Derog.
You must go see 'High Fidelity', haven't yet myself, but music trainspotter movie, supposed to be really funny, Nick Hornby who wrote it is superb, if you're into sport at all, the first book he wrote was about a fanatical footie supporter, or soccer if you're a yank.
Music:
Before I got fanatical I was big into rock and roll, Beatles, Led Zeppelin, Allman Bros, various other '70s hard rock greats, etc.
Then I was into premie music when I was a fanatical premie. I remember when asked by co-workers what kind of music I liked, I said 'devotional music'. They just looked at me. I thought premie music was by far the best music and it was the only music I listened to. Well, it was better than the new age put-you-to-sleep stuff he pushes on premies now. Ok, enough about that.
So that makes you about 45 I reckon?
When the ashrams closed, I got back into other music. Now I like good music of just about any kind. I'm big into classical for now. I'm getting more into Miles Davis, I know someone who has almost everything Miles did.
What classical you into? Miles Davis I've had periods where I was into him bigtime, for me specially 65-75 stuff. I like rock and roll, blues, jazz, world, latin (for dancing), a little country and bluegrass. Not much into rap and heavy metal, although there is some good heavy metal and a little bit of good rap. These are my opinions of course. Leaving out a lot, but that's mainly what I like.
Btw, I knew a some people who are really into the rave scene, one is a good dj. One was a co-worker who tried to get me to take e and go to a rave, but I was afraid I would go nuts. He turned me onto some house (or close to it) music, some of it very cool. They have loads of vinyl records, some of it rare. I should give them a call. What are your recommendations for house, etc?
Other interests: computer stuff, fractals, dancing, art, trying to figure out the big picture (without much luck) ...
I would THOROUGHLY recommend going to a rave, there ain't nothing like it, especially the real underground stuff, but if you're not doing serious chemikals I'd be careful with e's. E's are a fascinating drug, using them for therapy at the moment. Before taking them out I'd recommend just doing a quarter to a half at home, the effects are VERY subtle, like mushrooms, superb for any kind of deconstructing, but also for anyone who has been in a cult, well there's usually a lot of body detachment, and e's can pull you back into your body big-time. With house music/raves, especially if you're not doing much chemikals, and you don't find it easy sharing emotionally (usually another cult symptom) be careful. If I didn't know better I'd say it was designed for house music, a single track of music can completely kick start it, and if you're not prepared for that can be a bit intense and can cause panic attacks, I'd recommend a quarter to a third to start with, and the same again an hour to an hour and a half later if you're feeling fine, and enjoying the event, that way it's a lot gentler and very liberating. Needless to say, get them before hand from someone you really trust, there's some dodgy stuff around, mixed in with ketamine, amphetamines etc, which could really throw you if you're not prepared.
Re house, god there's so much stuff now, and so various, like most people who dj a bit, I've got close to 1000 12 inches, and three quarters of that is classy. Quite happy to put you on my tape mailing list if you like, but it won't be quick.
Ham @ hamzen.freeserve.co.uk

Compilations & dj mix tapes are the best starting point, bearing in mind your seriousness (?) and your eclectic music tastes check out some stuff on the Astralwerks label, out of San Francisco.

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Date: Mon, Jul 31, 2000 at 22:02:51 (GMT)
From: G
Email: None
To: ham
Subject: Who, me?
Message:
So that makes you about 45 I reckon?

Something like that.

What classical you into?

The classical I like the best are pieces that are very emotional, and violin and piano concertos. A rough list of my favorite composers: Rachmaninoff, Bach, Chopin, Beethoven, Brahms, Saint-Sains, and selected Mozart, Handel, and Debussy. I like to check out different periods including early music. Women are very underrepresented in classical music for various reasons and I don't think lack of potential is one of them. Amy Beach for example wrote some great music.

About your mailing list, if my friend is interested in being on it, mind if I forward your email address to him?

Astralwerks, found their site, will check it out

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Date: Fri, Jul 28, 2000 at 22:20:04 (GMT)
From: Katie
Email: None
To: ham
Subject: Turn on Your Lovelight/Grateful Dead
Message:
Hi Ham -
If Pigpen was singing it, it probably WAS an old blues/R&B song (prob. non-copyrighted, too).

Frankie Valli and the Four Seasons? Frankie had a REALLY falsetto voice (have you ever heard 'Sherrie, Sherrie Baby', etc.?) Do not know why Jethro likes them so much - I never did!

Take care, you -
Katie

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Date: Sat, Jul 29, 2000 at 02:12:43 (GMT)
From: ham
Email: None
To: Katie
Subject: Haven't got a clue why, but he did an excellent
Message:
dj set at work, and in the right track order made a lot more sense, went down really well too!

And pigpen eh, what an early loss, I loved that geezer, he was something, remember that one he did 'thgere's a lot of people out on the streets in a rage today', Workingman's Dead, lets hope Jim's not reading this, he's got me as a bit of a trainspotter I think!
Have you seen High Fidelity?

Or Essex Boys, that's where I'm based, Essex!

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Date: Sat, Jul 29, 2000 at 13:12:31 (GMT)
From: Katie
Email: None
To: ham
Subject: High Fidelity
Message:
Haven't seen the movie, but I loved the book (my typical answer). The book was supposed to be very revealing about the way men think - I didn't find it surprising but just thought the author was very honest. (Did anyone else here read the book and see the movie too?)

That Pigpen song from Workingman's is 'Easy Wind'. Robert Hunter wrote the lyrics. I always thought it was 'there's a whole lot of women out on the streets in red today.' And BTW, Garcia was my guru AFTER Maharaji :)

Re Jethro: I suppose Frankie Valli could be all right IN CONTEXT, although there is so much other better music from back then.

Hope you're doing well, Ham -
Love you,
Katie

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Date: Sun, Jul 30, 2000 at 16:46:09 (GMT)
From: G
Email: None
To: Katie
Subject: Easy Wind lyrics
Message:
See Easy Wind

'Cause there's a whole lotta women, Mama
Out in red on the streets today (note 4)

(4) variants that Pigpen sang include 'Out dressed in red ...', 'Out on the streets in red today' and 'Out in red that way.'

Also see Grateful Dead Lyric And Song Finder

Workingman's Dead

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Date: Sun, Jul 30, 2000 at 22:16:05 (GMT)
From: ham
Email: None
To: G
Subject: Were you into them big time too?
Message:
if so, then that makes you an old hippy too, & where would he have been without us as the hard core to build upon.
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Date: Sun, Jul 30, 2000 at 23:17:05 (GMT)
From: G
Email: None
To: ham
Subject: not big time
Message:
I saw them once, but I wasn't a Deadhead, I was somewhat of a hippy. It was a good concert, and a typical Dead concert if you know what I mean, could have gotten high just being there, a girl was dancing topless in classic Deadhead fashion. But I just didn't 'get' them the way other people did. Actually, just recently I heard a Dead song on a TV show about the '70s and really liked it (maybe the girl dancing on TV had something to do with it, although she didn't take her top off). I think the song was from American Beauty, so I'm going to get that album. I had a co-worker who used to be a real Deadhead, travelled to see them. He couldn't understand why we weren't more into them, he was almost prosletizing about them.
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Date: Mon, Jul 31, 2000 at 05:54:34 (GMT)
From: ham
Email: None
To: G
Subject: Remember that rumour that they'd got into gm
Message:
god I was so excited, and then they made their public denial of any interest, such a downer!
An awful lot of that late sixties early seventies stuff had strong hints of an alternative, for want of a better term, reality that was 'spiritual', knowing etc. Mix that in with an alternate social take, yet I was almost a proseletyser too, but the vibe if you were into them was always so chilled you could never have been too gung-ho, or that would have destroyed why you were into them in the firsat place. That more than anything I regret losing around mr prawn features.

Since you're into blues'y stuff, I'd recommend Workingmans Dead, similar period, more rootsy, grounded.

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Date: Mon, Jul 31, 2000 at 22:08:52 (GMT)
From: G
Email: None
To: ham
Subject: Workingman's Dead
Message:
<>...I was almost a proseletyser too, but the vibe if you were into them was always so chilled you could never have been too gung-ho, or that would have destroyed why you were into them in the firsat place. ... I'd recommend Workingmans Dead ...

My co-worker wasn't really a proseletyser, just that when the subject of the Dead came up, he was almost evengelical about it. He's an intense guy anyway. Anyway, I know what you mean.

Workingman's Dead is the other album I want to check out, I might start with that or just get both of them.

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Date: Sun, Jul 30, 2000 at 08:25:55 (GMT)
From: ham
Email: None
To: Katie
Subject: Nick Hornby and the middle class high lit brigade
Message:
He's destroyed it almost single handedly, well between him and the Bridget Jones series.

Lit over here was an incredibly snobby & snotty interest, for older Oxbridge graduates to pore over & analyse, and sales were dropping fast, then along he came. His first book about being an obsessive soccer fan, 'Fever Pitch' was brilliant. Even the broadsheet newspapers have got the hint, in all our culture here now there has been the same shift to that aliveness in the moment of working class culture, and good riddance to all that nose in the air I'm superior jobs for the boys bollox.

Re Easy Wind and Pig Pen, well I've just gone into my acid rock collection for the first time in yonks, and I stand corrected, but when he comes back to the chorus at the end I'd always heard it as 'rage', hate to think what kind of shitty sound systems I had back then to hear that, and whats with the timing of the bongos/tom/kick drums on that track, whoever mixed it should be shot, because the rest of them are spot on. Oh well, guess house
production has turned me into a perfectionist! Ahh simpler more naive days, perfect fodder for the guru.

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Date: Sun, Jul 30, 2000 at 17:31:10 (GMT)
From: Katie
Email: None
To: ham
Subject: Nick Hornby and the middle class high lit brigade
Message:
Hi Ham,
I kind of like some of the British middle class lit brigade myself :) (the female contingent). But maybe it's because I'm not British. Didn't really like Bridget Jones diary that much; think Adrian Mole diary is much funnier.

I looked up the Easy Wind lyrics in 'Box of Rain', which is a book of Robert Hunter lyrics, and G has got the right version. (I can't comment on the production - I do not have the ear for it. It WAS 1970, though!) But here is a quote from Robert Hunter that you might like:

My versions of these songs are no more the 'real ones' than those that may have spoken to some of you from a garbled tape recorded twenty years ago. I hope seeing the intended words will provide you with an interesting, if not always convincing, variant on the words some of you actually heard.

I dedicate 'Box of Rain' to those who have taken a line or two of it to heart. Believe it if you need it - if you don't, just pass it on.

Take care, Ham -
Love,
Katie

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Date: Sun, Jul 30, 2000 at 21:51:37 (GMT)
From: ham
Email: None
To: Katie
Subject: The middle class high lit brigade,
Message:
truly corrosive, maybe out of context they're readable! :)
I just pray you're not talking Margaret Drabble, c'mon Katie spill the beans, who are you into, and how do you see them from your side of the pond?

It's not so much the books, as the corrosive & stifling effect they had on our culture through the media, this has been a truly class sodden culture, and the smug and self satisfied and self absorbed vibe they've projected, purely by their membership of the brit educational establishment.....uugh! They extended the social splits here, all the while hiding behind their caring liberal naivete, but actually they were completely out to lunch.

It was that bunch, along with our corrupt trade unions that ushered in the semi-fascism of Thatcher.
When she turned up they were completely at a loss as to how to cope, they'd been living in their safe little Hampstead coterie, summer holidays in France & Tuscany. Thatcher destroyed them so easy she didn't even need a second wind. Truly pathetic the lot of them. I'm almost glad Thatcher came along just to see their patronising smug self-satisfaction wiped off their faces, and I hated Thatcher.

Give me Nick Hornby any day of the week.

Re the toms whatever, it wasn't the production, it was their timing, way off, when the rest of the band are spot on & very inspired, but then Kreutzman especially was always a bit sloppy, the toms? should have been buried in the mix, and that they could have done easy, even then.

Sorry Katie, sounds like I'm spoiling for a fight, but I'm not.
I've spent too long absorbing all that brit middle class bollox, soooo white and anaemic. Real black input into the culture here has only happened in the last ten years, but it has exploded, a lot of acid house was truly multi-racial, not that the wider culture isn't racist, but for a lot of younger people it's a dead issue now.

Love the Robert Hunter quote.

So how's your writing going?

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Date: Sat, Jul 29, 2000 at 02:58:05 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: ham
Subject: Garcia was my first 'guru'
Message:
It went like this:

Jerry Garcia

Arthur Janov (of 'Primal Scream' fame. Years later a friend of mine told me he used to go out with Janov's daughter. Janov didn't approve and pretty well screamed him out of the house. The daughter later killed herself. Not over Jerome, though)

Maharaji

I loved 'Workingman's Dead'. Still do. That, 'American Beauty' and 'Anthem of the Sun'. But they were all good (except for the bad ones).

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Date: Sat, Jul 29, 2000 at 04:13:43 (GMT)
From: ham
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Mr Heller you spook me sometimes!
Message:
Jerry/John Cipollina equal first with acid (loved workingmans, but especially the original Dark Star off Live/Dead, and Anthem for the sun, and Happy Trails

Neil Young/Joni Mitchell

Then Janov (turned down for primal t, under 25), imagine big boy being that aware, like never!

Gm as an extension of k

Robert Motherwell/Gunter Grass, both for grounding, and valuing doubt, first serious intellectual steps away

Raw Food (velly trippy)

Albert Mangelsdorf (obscure european free jazzer with a wicked sense of humour)

Francesco Varela (systems thinking)

Orbital

Psycilocybin mushes (hhmmmm yes)

LTJ Bukem/Photek (drum &; bass)

Fatboy Slim/Armand Van Helden (dirty house)

So many people who grew up in the nineties that I've met, so cool & so sussed, 'guru's, give us a break, so old school'

the year 2000,

myself

e's, small amounts for therapeutic purposes, spot on,

I love this year, turning into one of those special ones, a real gem

uk garage out of pumping car systems, especially Craig David, ooohhh yes, and don't the ladies love him,
and his voice, oooohhh liquid
and he's gonna get me into stylishly smart, I know it

jesus I bought my first suit ever the other week, neat goatees,
and his voice, oooohhh liquid

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Date: Sat, Jul 29, 2000 at 04:19:55 (GMT)
From: ham
Email: None
To: ham
Subject: and yah, I admit it, Mike Cobb is a trainspotter,
Message:
but a seriously fucking cool one, oh yeah!

:) to you mr H

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Date: Fri, Jul 28, 2000 at 17:41:34 (GMT)
From: Jethro
Email: None
To: ham
Subject: You must be kidding me
Message:
'Frankie Valli and the Four Reasons, who they? '

The greatest multi-octave sound producers eeeevvvvvvvvveeeeerrrrr!

Jethro

PS you're not taking the piss, are you?

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Date: Fri, Jul 28, 2000 at 19:17:05 (GMT)
From: ham
Email: None
To: Jethro
Subject: Has anyone ever told ya you're a sad old fucker :)
Message:
Me and Sharon are definitely coming, if we don't get in I'm thinking maybe Glastonbury, you heard anything about the green fayre happening in the sw somewhere, any ideas?

Frankie fucking Valley, I can't believe you sometimes, get that audio stuff together, you've still got to prove it's possible with his stuff, two samples and short, otrherwise, nah can't see it, but I'm open to it.

Hey re Frankie V, ever heard of Armand Van Helden, done some great tracks, house shit and other deeper dark black, his mix of Spin Spin Sugar was the starter for UK garage, well he reckons house clubs are boring, only playing the same stuff, when he dj's he mixes in 50's, 60's, 70's, hip-hop, cuban, house, garage, disco, funk blah de blah, he's made some excellent stuff, a right maverick, hey Ali G even copied his beard!

Luv ya

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Date: Wed, Jul 26, 2000 at 17:56:04 (GMT)
From: Coach
Email: None
To: cq
Subject: Summat like this peut etre
Message:
Vous needez une site sucking websnaker type thingy. There's billions of 'em. Here's one that'll probably do tho I ain't tried it.

'HTTrack will download a website to a local directory, building all directories, getting html, images, and other files from the server to your computer. HTTrack arranges the original site's relative link-structure.' - from nonags.com - free shit. About 1.9mb download. I guess you'll be able to just download the sections of a site you want. Websnake is another which I've actually used.

There's probably other ways an' all.

Httrack Thingy Download

Coachez

PS Hope it's in English, CQ.

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Date: Wed, Jul 26, 2000 at 18:14:45 (GMT)
From: cq
Email: None
To: Coach
Subject: Merci bucketloads, Coach. Will persevere. (nt)
Message:
Non, je ne regret rien ...
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Date: Thurs, Jul 27, 2000 at 04:05:06 (GMT)
From: Salam
Email: None
To: anyone
Subject: May I also ask? Has the link in the toilet bowl on
Message:
Gum Mahamj Li's link, where it show the world map been always active, it seems to be flasing today. Also does Gum now encourages listinig to the BBC and CNN or has he discovered that his site is dead boaring? and why has Gum particularly chosen the State departement web site for one of his links? Maybe he should have some banners flashing, things like quotes from Gum or something similar.

Salam ex-shaffted

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