Forum V: Archive
Compiled: Mon, Aug 07, 2000 at 11:09:47 (GMT)
From: Jul 25, 2000 To: Aug 04, 2000 Page: 2 Of: 5


cutting edge -:- hey bro! ...can you spare 50...(per month) -:- Mon, Jul 31, 2000 at 19:39:52 (GMT)
__ DV -:- hey bro! ...can you spare 50...(per month) -:- Tues, Aug 01, 2000 at 02:18:22 (GMT)
__ Joey -:- hey bro! ...can you spare 50...(per month) -:- Mon, Jul 31, 2000 at 19:46:14 (GMT)
__ __ Joe -:- The 'system' -:- Mon, Jul 31, 2000 at 20:35:18 (GMT)
__ __ __ Joey -:- The 'system' -:- Mon, Jul 31, 2000 at 22:59:46 (GMT)
__ __ cutting edge -:- hey bro! ...can you spare 50...(per month) -:- Mon, Jul 31, 2000 at 20:03:38 (GMT)
__ __ __ Joey -:- hey bro! ...can you spare 50...(per month) -:- Mon, Jul 31, 2000 at 23:32:56 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ G -:- renting Amaroo -:- Tues, Aug 01, 2000 at 00:00:19 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Joey -:- Thanks for the update, G, re: renting Amaroo (nt) -:- Tues, Aug 01, 2000 at 00:22:46 (GMT)

Joe -:- Malibu Residence/Mishler/Being God, etc. -:- Mon, Jul 31, 2000 at 16:59:29 (GMT)
__ G -:- Who owns the Malibu residence? -:- Mon, Jul 31, 2000 at 20:47:45 (GMT)
__ __ SEVA and an -:- Absentee Owner -:- Tues, Aug 01, 2000 at 14:00:35 (GMT)
__ __ __ Joe -:- Wow -- great information.... -:- Tues, Aug 01, 2000 at 17:13:48 (GMT)
__ __ Stonor -:- Sorry to interupt - testing (nt/ot) -:- Mon, Jul 31, 2000 at 22:27:15 (GMT)
__ __ Joe -:- Who owns the Malibu residence? -:- Mon, Jul 31, 2000 at 20:54:59 (GMT)
__ __ __ G -:- Seva Corp - Mary Holle -:- Tues, Aug 01, 2000 at 04:47:17 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Joe -:- Seva Corp - Mary Holle -:- Tues, Aug 01, 2000 at 17:12:19 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Lurkex -:- Seva Corp - Mary Holle DECA -:- Wed, Aug 02, 2000 at 18:50:03 (GMT)
__ __ __ la-ex -:- Who owns the Malibu residence? -:- Tues, Aug 01, 2000 at 02:30:18 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ G -:- Seva Corp bought land -:- Tues, Aug 01, 2000 at 04:56:51 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Rob -:- Who owns the Malibu residence? -:- Tues, Aug 01, 2000 at 03:20:06 (GMT)
__ Jerry -:- The 'inspiration' -:- Mon, Jul 31, 2000 at 19:01:36 (GMT)

Finally -:- Onae, Deltek, Jacobs, Milbank -:- Mon, Jul 31, 2000 at 16:36:35 (GMT)
__ Joe -:- What the numbers mean.... -:- Mon, Jul 31, 2000 at 20:42:13 (GMT)
__ __ Hmmmm.. -:- Does this mean?? -:- Mon, Jul 31, 2000 at 22:39:15 (GMT)
__ __ __ Joe -:- Does this mean?? -:- Mon, Jul 31, 2000 at 23:21:21 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Roger eDrek -:- And that means you can be a shareholder -:- Tues, Aug 01, 2000 at 01:00:07 (GMT)
__ G -:- What do the numbers mean? (nt) -:- Mon, Jul 31, 2000 at 19:34:53 (GMT)
__ __ Joe -:- Sorry, see my post, above (nt) -:- Mon, Jul 31, 2000 at 20:43:26 (GMT)
__ __ __ Joe -:- And, also..... -:- Mon, Jul 31, 2000 at 20:49:05 (GMT)
__ __ It means the scamster -:- has been around a long time.... -:- Mon, Jul 31, 2000 at 20:28:32 (GMT)
__ Roger eDrek -:- Maharaji, the successful private investor -:- Mon, Jul 31, 2000 at 17:57:49 (GMT)

buzz -:- divorce -:- Mon, Jul 31, 2000 at 16:28:41 (GMT)
__ SB -:- divorce -:- Mon, Jul 31, 2000 at 17:46:39 (GMT)
__ __ Lotus Eater -:- damaged lives -:- Mon, Jul 31, 2000 at 21:33:22 (GMT)
__ __ __ SB -:- damaged lives -:- Mon, Jul 31, 2000 at 21:52:24 (GMT)
__ __ __ Joe -:- damaged lives -:- Mon, Jul 31, 2000 at 21:49:31 (GMT)
__ __ buzz -:- divorce -:- Mon, Jul 31, 2000 at 19:41:32 (GMT)
__ __ __ SB -:- divorce -:- Mon, Jul 31, 2000 at 20:12:12 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Lurkex -:- I nearly divorced then just in time... -:- Mon, Jul 31, 2000 at 23:32:48 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ SB -:- I nearly divorced then just in time... -:- Tues, Aug 01, 2000 at 01:15:04 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Salam -:- WE TRUSTED HIM -:- Tues, Aug 01, 2000 at 14:14:09 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ SB -:- WE TRUSTED HIM -:- Tues, Aug 01, 2000 at 15:00:22 (GMT)

Stonor -:- Three Cheers for Forum V and all the exes! -:- Mon, Jul 31, 2000 at 13:09:51 (GMT)
__ Stonor -:- PS: gm and Ex-premie.org links + all available -:- Mon, Jul 31, 2000 at 13:27:02 (GMT)

sam -:- blind faith or reality -:- Mon, Jul 31, 2000 at 06:54:58 (GMT)
__ Joe -:- There isn't an answer, only observation..... -:- Mon, Jul 31, 2000 at 16:33:24 (GMT)
__ __ SB -:- Right on! (nt) -:- Tues, Aug 01, 2000 at 02:53:06 (GMT)
__ Gregg -:- charmingly blind faith -:- Mon, Jul 31, 2000 at 14:37:52 (GMT)
__ ham -:- blind faith or reality -:- Mon, Jul 31, 2000 at 07:19:40 (GMT)

Rob -:- Here's why they need to be a Church -:- Mon, Jul 31, 2000 at 04:34:46 (GMT)
__ Know It All -:- Here's why they need to be a Church -:- Tues, Aug 01, 2000 at 02:13:00 (GMT)
__ __ Rob -:- Go for it, KIA (nt) -:- Tues, Aug 01, 2000 at 03:54:57 (GMT)
__ Jim -:- What exactly are you guys complaining about? -:- Mon, Jul 31, 2000 at 16:07:48 (GMT)
__ __ Rob -:- You had me worried for a minute there! -:- Mon, Jul 31, 2000 at 22:57:30 (GMT)
__ __ Joe -:- Any Idea what 'Visions Support' is? -:- Mon, Jul 31, 2000 at 16:38:47 (GMT)
__ SB -:- LIKE us exes, who would like to know how the... -:- Mon, Jul 31, 2000 at 05:59:02 (GMT)
__ __ Rob -:- The next step..... -:- Mon, Jul 31, 2000 at 06:44:55 (GMT)
__ __ __ Joe -:- The next step/tax fraud..... -:- Mon, Jul 31, 2000 at 14:12:13 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ VP -:- The next step/tax fraud..... -:- Tues, Aug 01, 2000 at 02:33:48 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Rob -:- The next step/tax fraud..... -:- Tues, Aug 01, 2000 at 03:52:47 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Joe -:- By the way Rob... -:- Mon, Jul 31, 2000 at 16:21:12 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Rob -:- By the way Rob... -:- Mon, Jul 31, 2000 at 22:54:30 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Jim -:- Good idea but don't forget to call first -:- Mon, Jul 31, 2000 at 16:26:21 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Rob -:- Although it may not be necessary -:- Tues, Aug 01, 2000 at 00:52:34 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ G -:- Form 4506-A Request for Public Inspection or Copy -:- Tues, Aug 01, 2000 at 02:09:18 (GMT)
__ __ __ SB -:- Thanks Rob -:- Mon, Jul 31, 2000 at 06:56:45 (GMT)
__ __ sam -:- LIKE us exes, who would like to know how the... -:- Mon, Jul 31, 2000 at 06:35:45 (GMT)
__ __ __ SB -:- I did question -:- Mon, Jul 31, 2000 at 06:51:57 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Stonor -:- re: mixed messages ... -:- Mon, Jul 31, 2000 at 14:09:26 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ SB -:- re: mixed messages ... -:- Mon, Jul 31, 2000 at 18:00:34 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Stonor -:- re: mixed messages ... -:- Mon, Jul 31, 2000 at 22:45:19 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Stonor -:- re: mixed messages ... part 1? -:- Mon, Jul 31, 2000 at 22:46:04 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Stonor -:- re: mixed messages ... part 2? -:- Mon, Jul 31, 2000 at 22:52:00 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Stonor -:- re: mixed messages ... part 3? and FA? -:- Mon, Jul 31, 2000 at 22:53:11 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ SB -:- re: mixed messages ... part 3? and FA? -:- Tues, Aug 01, 2000 at 02:47:27 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Stonor -:- re: mixed messages ... part 3? and FA? -:- Tues, Aug 01, 2000 at 03:30:43 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ SB -:- re: mixed messages ... part 3? and FA? -:- Tues, Aug 01, 2000 at 07:20:11 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Stonor -:- Yes, fresh organic vegetables, a good idea, no? 1 -:- Tues, Aug 01, 2000 at 14:54:48 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ SB -:- She was paraphrasing Lard -:- Tues, Aug 01, 2000 at 16:37:34 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Stonor -:- Help!! Any techies!! Posting problem continues!! -:- Tues, Aug 01, 2000 at 17:12:09 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Stonor -:- Yes, fresh organic vegetables, a good idea, no? 2 -:- Tues, Aug 01, 2000 at 15:33:14 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Stonor -:- Yes, fresh organic vegetables, a good idea, no? 3 -:- Tues, Aug 01, 2000 at 15:40:32 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Stonor -:- Yes, fresh organic vegetables, a good idea, no? 4 -:- Tues, Aug 01, 2000 at 15:41:34 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ SB -:- Yes, fresh organic vegetables, a good idea, no? 4 -:- Tues, Aug 01, 2000 at 16:50:28 (GMT)
__ __ __ Rob -:- LIKE us exes, who would like to know how the... -:- Mon, Jul 31, 2000 at 06:45:58 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Lawrence of Eurobia -:- Getting the train to stop is another matter (nt) -:- Mon, Jul 31, 2000 at 19:10:26 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Salam -:- Rob, you have done a lot of work on the church -:- Mon, Jul 31, 2000 at 08:01:57 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Rob -:- Rob, you have done a lot of work on the church -:- Mon, Jul 31, 2000 at 23:12:21 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Salam -:- I understand....nt -:- Tues, Aug 01, 2000 at 01:11:33 (GMT)

cutting edge -:- I want my M-TV...and 24/7, please... -:- Mon, Jul 31, 2000 at 04:08:09 (GMT)
__ SB -:- The more brainwashed, the better -:- Mon, Jul 31, 2000 at 06:01:12 (GMT)

cutting edge -:- 'auto knowledge for all!' -:- Mon, Jul 31, 2000 at 01:25:42 (GMT)
__ Joe -:- Amazing....He appears scared shitless -:- Mon, Jul 31, 2000 at 16:17:14 (GMT)
__ __ Joey -:- Amazing....He appears scared shitless -:- Mon, Jul 31, 2000 at 19:34:05 (GMT)
__ __ __ Sir Dave -:- The stronger the light - the clearer the shadow -:- Tues, Aug 01, 2000 at 00:06:22 (GMT)
__ __ __ Joe -:- Amazing....He appears scared shitless -:- Mon, Jul 31, 2000 at 20:23:46 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Joey -:- Amazing....He appears scared shitless -:- Mon, Jul 31, 2000 at 22:26:11 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Joey -:- PS: RE Amazing....He appears scared shitless -:- Mon, Jul 31, 2000 at 22:33:51 (GMT)
__ __ __ cutting edge -:- Amazing....He appears scared shitless -:- Mon, Jul 31, 2000 at 19:59:16 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Katie -:- Flying in the grass -:- Wed, Aug 02, 2000 at 17:05:20 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Joey -:- Flying in the grass -:- Wed, Aug 02, 2000 at 18:28:07 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Joey -:- correction -:- Wed, Aug 02, 2000 at 19:50:21 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ SB -:- Amazing....He appears scared shitless -:- Mon, Jul 31, 2000 at 20:14:02 (GMT)
__ ham -:- Excellent news, gm admits no juju needed -:- Mon, Jul 31, 2000 at 06:44:37 (GMT)
__ Sir Dave -:- 'auto knowledge for all!' -:- Mon, Jul 31, 2000 at 02:13:02 (GMT)
__ __ Joey -:- 'auto knowledge for all!' -:- Mon, Jul 31, 2000 at 04:38:57 (GMT)
__ __ __ Joe -:- A Question..... -:- Mon, Jul 31, 2000 at 17:07:11 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ SB -:- Ready to be confused!! -:- Mon, Jul 31, 2000 at 19:37:33 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Joey -:- best answer I can offer -:- Mon, Jul 31, 2000 at 18:42:11 (GMT)
__ __ __ Salam -:- ''What was Charanand doing ?' -:- Mon, Jul 31, 2000 at 06:33:10 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Joey -:- ''What was Charanand doing ?' -:- Mon, Jul 31, 2000 at 18:58:52 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Salam -:- I guess cyberguruji is here to stay. -:- Tues, Aug 01, 2000 at 13:00:23 (GMT)
__ __ Salam -:- Whatever became of grace? -:- Mon, Jul 31, 2000 at 03:09:11 (GMT)
__ __ __ cutting edge -:- Whatever became of grace? -:- Mon, Jul 31, 2000 at 03:44:12 (GMT)

Mili -:- Anthony DeMello -:- Sun, Jul 30, 2000 at 22:22:37 (GMT)
__ Jerry -:- Anthony DeMello -:- Mon, Jul 31, 2000 at 20:26:18 (GMT)
__ cq -:- I asked you a question about a month ago. -:- Mon, Jul 31, 2000 at 19:15:31 (GMT)
__ Nigel -:- Never mind that, Mili, how about your doubts? -:- Mon, Jul 31, 2000 at 14:40:40 (GMT)
__ Nigel da Mellow -:- Anthony DeMello -:- Mon, Jul 31, 2000 at 12:42:43 (GMT)
__ SB -:- Lets talk about Elan Vital Mili -:- Mon, Jul 31, 2000 at 04:03:54 (GMT)
__ __ Salam -:- He never said he was God -:- Mon, Jul 31, 2000 at 06:50:19 (GMT)
__ hamzen -:- Wish I could say the same about you -:- Sun, Jul 30, 2000 at 22:46:23 (GMT)
__ __ P-man -:- Get lost, Mili (nt) -:- Mon, Jul 31, 2000 at 00:18:36 (GMT)

Rob -:- 'Is this a Church I see before me?' -:- Sat, Jul 29, 2000 at 23:34:59 (GMT)
__ cq -:- 'The dagger before my hand? - I have thee not ... -:- Mon, Jul 31, 2000 at 18:08:09 (GMT)
__ __ Rob -:- 'Those he commands move only in command, -:- Tues, Aug 01, 2000 at 00:18:19 (GMT)
__ __ __ cq -:- all our yesterdays have lighted fools ... -:- Wed, Aug 02, 2000 at 18:13:49 (GMT)
__ Rob -:- 'Our purpose is to help Maharaji in his work' - EV -:- Sun, Jul 30, 2000 at 01:36:03 (GMT)
__ __ G -:- or do I see an Educational Organization? -:- Sun, Jul 30, 2000 at 02:39:54 (GMT)
__ __ __ Rob -:- or do I see an Educational Organization? -:- Sun, Jul 30, 2000 at 05:06:49 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ G -:- True -:- Sun, Jul 30, 2000 at 16:29:38 (GMT)
__ __ __ Rob -:- One big happy family -:- Sun, Jul 30, 2000 at 02:57:01 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ G -:- A question, notes -:- Sun, Jul 30, 2000 at 03:24:59 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ G -:- Does EV comply with its exemption??? -:- Sun, Jul 30, 2000 at 03:34:06 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Rob -:- Does EV comply with its exemption??? -:- Sun, Jul 30, 2000 at 05:04:23 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ SB -:- Very important Rob, thanks! (nt) -:- Sun, Jul 30, 2000 at 05:43:16 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ G -:- Publicity of Exempt Organizations' Information -:- Sun, Jul 30, 2000 at 06:08:15 (GMT)
__ __ Zelda -:- 'Our purpose is to help Maharaji in his work' - EV -:- Sun, Jul 30, 2000 at 01:43:10 (GMT)

Zelda -:- Has anyone heard from Robyn? OT -:- Sat, Jul 29, 2000 at 21:16:55 (GMT)
__ buzz -:- Has anyone heard from Robyn? OT -:- Sat, Jul 29, 2000 at 22:31:41 (GMT)
__ ham -:- See under Porky's Bed technique, she's surfaced, -:- Sat, Jul 29, 2000 at 22:09:11 (GMT)
__ __ Zelda -:- Buzz- No, the Other one + thanks ham NT -:- Sun, Jul 30, 2000 at 01:16:45 (GMT)
__ __ __ Robyn -:- Buzz- No, the Other one + thanks ham NT -:- Mon, Jul 31, 2000 at 16:35:05 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ VP -:- Hi Robyn -:- Tues, Aug 01, 2000 at 02:04:35 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Robyn -:- Hi Robyn -:- Wed, Aug 02, 2000 at 18:49:10 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Robyn -:- Buzz- No, the Other one + thanks ham NT -:- Mon, Jul 31, 2000 at 16:38:20 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Zelda -:- Buzz- No, the Other one + thanks ham NT -:- Mon, Jul 31, 2000 at 19:40:05 (GMT)

Salam -:- Guru Maharaj Ji, Perfect Master of the Aquarian -:- Sat, Jul 29, 2000 at 17:14:26 (GMT)
__ hamzen -:- You forget that under the universal lila, -:- Sat, Jul 29, 2000 at 22:18:44 (GMT)
__ __ Salam -:- I have not got to that part of the book yet..nt -:- Sun, Jul 30, 2000 at 02:33:59 (GMT)
__ __ __ Selene -:- hey salam got your info regarding this -:- Sun, Jul 30, 2000 at 05:40:49 (GMT)

cq -:- Opening closed doors -:- Sat, Jul 29, 2000 at 11:26:16 (GMT)
__ Salam -:- Opening closed doors -:- Sat, Jul 29, 2000 at 17:49:52 (GMT)

SB -:- Elan Vital on MAHARAJI'S name -:- Sat, Jul 29, 2000 at 11:09:38 (GMT)
__ EddyTheTurtle -:- Elan Vital on MAHARAJI'S name -:- Sat, Jul 29, 2000 at 11:31:00 (GMT)
__ __ Ben Lurking -:- Elan Vital on MAHARAJI'S name -:- Sat, Jul 29, 2000 at 19:42:32 (GMT)
__ __ Salam -:- King my foot..........nt -:- Sat, Jul 29, 2000 at 17:54:59 (GMT)


Date: Mon, Jul 31, 2000 at 19:39:52 (GMT)
From: cutting edge
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: hey bro! ...can you spare 50...(per month)
Message:
another litle wrinkle in m's new fundraising game...

visions is requesting, or giving the opportunity for those with gratitude to participate(in the proper politically correct person with knowledge speak)in m's work in the following way...

you can be a sponsor, which means you can contribute a Minimum of $50/month directly to visions,preferably taken out of your credit card account...

the $50 makes you a sponsor, and allows you to receive weekly broadcasts in your home,or visit any other home and feel comfortable watching it there...

sounds like the AMP program all over again...

most of the halls will close down, in favor of houses showing the videos...

two reasons for this: 1)the money currently used to support community halls will now all go to visions, instead of just a portion of it.In an average small community of 20-25 people this means that visions can get their greedy little paws on about $1000/month, instead of $250/month(from previous video sales)
2)it will be harder for exes or the media to possibly disrupt knowledge events. If the events are in a hall or library, one person can reach all of the possible aspirants just by showing up at the weekly or monthly program.With videos in a number of houses,nobody wants to try and mess around with going to someone's house and telling aspirants about the guru's 'othere side'...

It will certainly be interesting to see how it goes...
they are trying to portray this as a great international movement,but I think it will further the erosion into meaningless,banal,new age drivel that very few will ultimately want...

Stay tuned

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Date: Tues, Aug 01, 2000 at 02:18:22 (GMT)
From: DV
Email: None
To: cutting edge
Subject: hey bro! ...can you spare 50...(per month)
Message:
Their cult process is evolving and integrating nicely with the latest in broadband communications technology- satellite, internet streaming, etc. Soon they will be interesting enough to warrant the attention of 60 Minutes or 20/20. 'Parents, are your kids receiving secret initiation technques in their bedrooms?'
The beat goes on...
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Date: Mon, Jul 31, 2000 at 19:46:14 (GMT)
From: Joey
Email: None
To: cutting edge
Subject: hey bro! ...can you spare 50...(per month)
Message:
Pretty much what I heard from the premie at dinner last nite. She also made reference to the 'new sposorship program' for the Satellite broadcasts, but also made mention of the fact that wealthy premies had made big donations and loans to put the system in place. Alot of money has been raised, and finacially the cult seems to be flying.
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Date: Mon, Jul 31, 2000 at 20:35:18 (GMT)
From: Joe
Email: None
To: Joey
Subject: The 'system'
Message:
Joey, a system like that isn't that expensive. The premies have to buy the satellite equipment and pay Visions for the service. Visions contracts with a satellite company, and M continues making videos the same way he does, only they get played via satellite instead of selling or renting them, or having them get played in halls. Maharaji is just becoming more like a televangelist, with a very, very limited audience, that's all. Big deal.

I do wonder how they are going to attract 'new people' with this system, however. I think communities will become even more fragmented than they already are, and I think most people who want to receive knowledge, do so because they think premies are blissful and happy because they have the 'gift.' Without that kind of exposure, just going to somebody's house, I doubt there will be much 'propogation' primarily because premies don't have much of an 'experience.' And let's face it, without the social and pressure of other premies, most people will fade away over time.

There will be a whole group of premies, who have developed identities being honchos at 'events' doing things like 'security' and 'information' etc., who will lose a reason for their existence, if M stops doing 'events.' They will lose being part of the chosen 'club' to do 'participation.'

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Date: Mon, Jul 31, 2000 at 22:59:46 (GMT)
From: Joey
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: The 'system'
Message:
Joey, a system like that isn't that expensive. The premies have to buy the satellite equipment and pay Visions for the service. Visions contracts with a satellite company, and M continues making videos the same way he does, only they get played via satellite instead of selling or renting them, or having them get played in halls. Maharaji is just becoming more like a televangelist, with a very, very limited audience, that's all. Big deal.

Big deal?? Of course its no big deal. It's the same deal as always.

Raise a shit load of money. Only use a portion of it and both you and I know where the rest is diverted.

I think most people who want to receive knowledge, do so because they think premies are blissful and happy because they have the 'gift.'

Well this way you'll get to see blissed out premies who have the 'gift' at somebody's home, or if you can afford a satellite dish to watch broadcasts all by your lonesome self, you'll see them on your TV screen, without the company of a bunch of goofball ones by your side.

Without that kind of exposure, just going to somebody's house, I doubt there will be much 'propogation' primarily because premies don't have much of an 'experience.' And let's face it, without the social and pressure of other premies, most people will fade away over time

With the 'new' system you'll be able to have as much 'live' exposure to premies as you want, when you want by getting together with them at someone's home or inviting them to yours, and like I said there will still be large events to provide the material for broadcasts. So if you like to do some travelling and can afford it, that opportunity exists as well.

As far as the social pressure goes, that's worked both ways. I wonder how many people have been driven away PRECISELY BECAUSE of the social pressure.

There will be a whole group of premies, who have developed identities being honchos at 'events' doing things like 'security' and 'information' etc., who will lose a reason for their existence, if M stops doing 'events.' They will lose being part of the chosen 'club' to do 'participation.'

OK, so some sevice, er...excuse me...paricipation opportunities might be lost, but then, there's always the possiblity of being chosen for an interview on the next M-TV newscast.

Just think of it, Joe. Having your own 15 minutes of glorious premie fame!
Fuck!! What an opportunity!! :::)))

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Date: Mon, Jul 31, 2000 at 20:03:38 (GMT)
From: cutting edge
Email: None
To: Joey
Subject: hey bro! ...can you spare 50...(per month)
Message:
I think you're right again.I don't think it was hard to raise money for this one, because it was probably presented as a business plan, with a chance to either invest or own a piece of the action...
I was wondering if they are thinking of trying to actually own a channel full time, and then sub lease some of the time to other progaramming, making it a business venture that might eventually bring in big bucks...

With all these projects going on, do you think that there is one person who oversees all of it, like bob mischler, or michael dettmers used to?

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Date: Mon, Jul 31, 2000 at 23:32:56 (GMT)
From: Joey
Email: None
To: cutting edge
Subject: hey bro! ...can you spare 50...(per month)
Message:
I was wondering if they are thinking of trying to actually own a channel full time, and then sub lease some of the time to other progaramming, making it a business venture that might eventually bring in big bucks...

I didn't hear my premie acqaintance speak about a full-time channel, but she did say something about having a variety of channels on the system that you could chose from at the time of broadcast.
Nor did she say anything about the business venture part, leasing some of the time to other programming.
Interesting, although that was the idea with Amaroo to rent it out as facility for other groups as well. So far I haven't heard anything about that working out successfully, but I guess for the premies...hope always springs eternal.

With all these projects going on, do you think that there is one person who oversees all of it, like bob mischler, or michael dettmers used to?

Nope. I suspect there's a number of people in M's politburo, each with their own bit of resposibility.

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Date: Tues, Aug 01, 2000 at 00:00:19 (GMT)
From: G
Email: None
To: Joey
Subject: renting Amaroo
Message:
Interesting, although that was the idea with Amaroo to rent it out as facility for other groups as well. So far I haven't heard anything about that working out successfully, but I guess for the premies...hope always springs eternal.

They rented the 'Ivorys Rock Conference Center' at least once (in April). My guess is that they are making very little money on it.

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Date: Tues, Aug 01, 2000 at 00:22:46 (GMT)
From: Joey
Email: None
To: G
Subject: Thanks for the update, G, re: renting Amaroo (nt)
Message:
nt
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Date: Mon, Jul 31, 2000 at 16:59:29 (GMT)
From: Joe
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: Malibu Residence/Mishler/Being God, etc.
Message:
I thought I would post this again, seeing as we have been talking about the Malibu 'residence,' Maharaji's claims to be God, and Mishler's attempts to try to get Maharaji to drop the divinity crap.

Some time ago, I a Nexis search and found the following from the Associated Press dated January 22, 1979:

The Maharaj Ji, who came to the United States as a child guru, has become an object of veneration instead of a teacher of truth, a critic says.

'He has bastardized the teaching of the gurus,' said Robert Mishler, worldwide president of the Maharaj Ji's Divine Light Mission until 1976...'Now people are taught to learn the truth about him the Maharaj Ji, instead of themselves.'

...many followers do appear to believe the Maharaj Ji has god like qualities or is himself God.

'That kind of absolute dominion over people provides a corrupting influence,' said Mishler, claiming the guru's followers, 'will literally do anything he tells them.'

A mission spokesman estimated membership in the United States is about 12,000, with 1.2 million worldwise, mostly in India.

While followers flock to Malibu to be near their spiritual leader, the Maharaj Ji limits himself to speeches at national festivals and world tours. He travels to and from his estate by limosine or private helicopter.

Mishler said he left the group after trying to get the Maharaj Ji to tell his followers that he was not God, and to live only off his own tax free gifts, instead of income from the missions as he was. He said the mission took in over $5 million in 1976.

'When I proposed that I remember his exact words,' Mishler said, 'the Maharaj Ji asked, 'What about me?''

Joe Anctil, a spokesman for DLM based in Denver, said Mishler 'freaked out' because his job as international director was discontinued. Anctil described the mission as 'a group of individuals who live autonomously, practice a meditation and do selfless service. The Maharaj Ji is a spiritual inspiration for those people who do meditation.'

On the question of whether the Maharaj Ji is regarded as god, he said 'If you asked every member of the mission, they would each give you a different answer.'

Mishler said another factor in his split with the Maharaj Ji was his suggestion to sell the Malibu estate, because it had been purchased with mission funds. 'They've probably signed it over to Maharaj Ji by now,' he said.

Anctil said the mansion belongs to Maharaj Ji. Asked if it had been given to him by the church, Anctil said, 'That's none of your business or mine.'

He also declined to discuss the mission's net worth.


1. Not only did Maharaji claim to be God, he got worried when Mishler suggested he stop doing it, and uttered the pathetic 'what about me' comment. Note also that Michael Dettmers has said and he, also, tried to get Maharaji to stop playing God, and essentially quit when Maharaji refused.

And like we have been saying, this article also supports the fact that many of us, perhaps most of the premies, viewed Maharaji as god.

2. The Malibu 'residence' was purchased with DLM funds, and Mishler thought that was unethical or illegal.

3. Joe Anctil is a dipshit, but even being the whore that he was, he wouldn't deny that most premies believed Maharaji was God.

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Date: Mon, Jul 31, 2000 at 20:47:45 (GMT)
From: G
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: Who owns the Malibu residence?
Message:

Mishler said another factor in his split with the Maharaj Ji was his suggestion to sell the Malibu estate, because it had been purchased with mission funds. 'They've probably signed it over to Maharaj Ji by now,' he said.

Anctil said the mansion belongs to Maharaj Ji. Asked if it had been given to him by the church, Anctil said, 'That's none of your business or mine.'

Following are details of a property record I found. It appears to be the Malibu residence, but the old house, as only 2 bedrooms and 4 baths are listed and the assessed value is a measely $5,264,979. This is an address that Prem Rawat (aka 'Maharaji') has listed as his home address. I don't know how current the data is. If it ISN'T the Malibu residence then....

Now Prem Rawat is not listed as an officer of Seva Corporation, but who owns Seva Corporation? Where did Seva Corporation get the money to buy the house?

The details:

Property address: 31334 Anacapa View Dr, Malibu CA 90265

Name: Seva Corporation Of America

Mailing address: PO Box 4029, Malibu CA 90264

Legal description: POR of Lot 15 R F 534 and POR of Lots 13,22 and

Percent improved: 95.06%

Year built: 1958

Lot size (square feet or acreage): 208,217

Total square feet: 4,857

Number of bedrooms/baths: 2/4

Last sale date: 05-31-1978

Assessed value: $5,264,979

Tax amount: $55,492.57

Zoning: LCA1

Assessor's parcel #: 4470011051

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Date: Tues, Aug 01, 2000 at 14:00:35 (GMT)
From: SEVA and an
Email: None
To: G
Subject: Absentee Owner
Message:
Residence, Homes, Land

SEVA CORP owns property located in MALIBU CA purchased September 23, 1988
SEVA CORP OF AMERICA owns property located in CA which was purchased on March 26, 1991
SEVA CORP OF AMERICA owns property located in CA which was purchased on March 26, 1991
SEVA CORP OF AMERICA owns property located in CA which was purchased on March 26, 1991
SEVA CORP OF AMERICA owns property located in CA which was purchased on December 29, 1995
SEVA CORPORATION OF AMERIC & ]Anacapa View Estates owns property located in MALIBU CA December 29, 1995
SEVA CORP & owns property located in LOS ANGELES CA which was purchased on July 22, 1999

SEVA CORPORATION OF AMERIC & ]Anacapa View Estates owns property located in MALIBU CA May 31, 1978
SEVA CORPORATION OF AMERIC & ]Anacapa View Estates owns property located in MALIBU CA May 31, 1978

Helicopter, Glider, Single Engine

SEVA CORPORATION of MALIBU CA registered an aircraft on July 16, 1997
SEVA CORP of THOUSAND OAKS CA registered an aircraft on August 20, 1997
SEVA CORP (DELAWARE) of THOUSAND OAKS CA registered an aircraft on June 7, 1999

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Date: Tues, Aug 01, 2000 at 17:13:48 (GMT)
From: Joe
Email: None
To: SEVA and an
Subject: Wow -- great information....
Message:
G and the resto of you, I'm really impressed with your abilities to do research on the internet. Great work.

Joe, the computer-illiterate

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Date: Mon, Jul 31, 2000 at 22:27:15 (GMT)
From: Stonor
Email: None
To: G
Subject: Sorry to interupt - testing (nt/ot)
Message:
Sorry to interupt - testing (nt/ot)

It only posts what I don't particularly want to post. Must be a ghost in the machine.

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Date: Mon, Jul 31, 2000 at 20:54:59 (GMT)
From: Joe
Email: None
To: G
Subject: Who owns the Malibu residence?
Message:
G,

I think that is the description of the OLD house, built in 1958 sounds right. It had more than 2 bedrooms however. It was probably worth $5 million, but the house has been completely rebuilt and is huge, worth at least $15 million, according to Real Estate agents in the area.

From what I gather, Seva is the title owner of 'the residence.' Who are listed as the officers? Is one of them Mary Holle?

I would assume that Seva is owned by Maharaji and members of his family, or by trusts controlled by them, probably to protect the property from being attached in litigation and for tax reasons. Since it's a privately held company, there are no requirements to disclose who the owners are.

Seva wouldn't have to get 'money' to buy the house. Maharaji got the money to buy and improve the house first, according to Mishler, from Divine Light Mission, and later, who knows? Sounds like Amtext, donations etc. Then, at some point, Seva was set up and Maharaji may have quitclaimed the house to Seve (which is owned why who knows, again, probably trusts owned by M and his family, but I dont' know for sure. You can bet M feels he has complete control over the house.)

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Date: Tues, Aug 01, 2000 at 04:47:17 (GMT)
From: G
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: Seva Corp - Mary Holle
Message:
This info is current as of 7-21-2000 and was filed with the Secretary Of State. 'Foreign' in this context means foreign to California.

Seva Corporation (Delaware):
---------------------------
State id number: 01677810
Type: Foreign stock corporation
Status: Active
Good standing status: Only available directly from Secretary Of State.
Date of qualification: 12-10-1990
State or country of inc.: Delaware
Duration: Perpetual

Mailing address:
PO Box 1437
Thousand Oaks, CA 91358

Title: President
Name: Mary E Holle
Address:
516 N Pennsfield Place Ste 108
Thousand Oaks, CA 91360

Title: Registered Agent
Agent name: John K Bale
Address:
516 N Pennsfield Place Ste 108
Thousand Oaks, CA 91360

Transaction: Delete accounting period extension
Date: 1-10-1996
Comments: Extended filing date 10/15/95

Seva Corporation Of America:
---------------------------
State id number: 00858497
Type: Foreign stock corporation
Status: Active
Good standing status: Only available directly from Secretary Of State.
Date of qualification: 1-05-1978
State or country of inc.: Nebraska
Duration: Perpetual

Mailing Address:
P O Box 1437
Thousand Oaks, CA 91358

Title: President
Name: Mary E Holle
Address:
516 N. Pennsfield Place, Suite 108
Thousand Oaks, CA 91360

Title: Registered agent
Agent name: John K Bale
Address:
516 N. Pennsfield Place, Suite 108
Thousand Oaks, CA 91360

Transaction: Delete accounting period extension
Date: 1-10-1996
Comments: Extended filing date 10/15/95

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Date: Tues, Aug 01, 2000 at 17:12:19 (GMT)
From: Joe
Email: None
To: G
Subject: Seva Corp - Mary Holle
Message:
Funny, Mary Holle and I received knowledge in the same knowledge session. From Mahatma Vijayanand, this little guy, whose name I think meant 'conquerer of bliss' or something equally weird.

Mary and I followed him to Omaha, Nebraska and received knowledge there. I was in my senior year of college and used Spring Break to follow a Mahatma around to receive knowledge. I lived for a short while in a premie house with Mary, then we were in the ashram together, along with Mary's brother, David (who later worked in accounting at IHQ in Denver) at COLL, with about 150 other premies, in this big hotel in downtown San Antonio, Texas. That became a 'novitiate' or a kind of boot camp for ashram premies.

Mary worked in 'communications' at IHQ in Denver and then in Miami. She was a very nice person, someone everyone seemed to like, but she and David were about the two most rigid, die-hard premies I ever met.

I think Mary 'did service' at DECA during the Boeing 707 plane project while I was there and elsewhere in Miami at the same time. At one point, there was a real scandal and Mary, like happened to some other ashram premies, ran off with an ashram brother. I think for that, Mary was banished to the Minneapolis ashram, where she was working as a teller in a bank. I think Mary had gone to McAllister College in St. Paul, so that was kind of home turf for her, although she was originally from Des Moines, Iowa.

So, I guess Mary continues extremely close involvement with Maharaji. To the point where she is the President of the company that owns 'the residence.' Doubt she is much more than a figurehead, though. At least she got out of Minneapolis and made it to Southern California. I guess that is an improvement.

Mary, if you ever let your eyes wonder onto this forum, I hope you are doing okay. Sorry I missed sending you a card on our 'spiritual birthday' last March 8.

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Date: Wed, Aug 02, 2000 at 18:50:03 (GMT)
From: Lurkex
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: Seva Corp - Mary Holle DECA
Message:
Yes, I liked Mary too. I knew her at IHQ and DECA.

Joe, I've e-mailed you. We seem to have been in a lot of the same places.

Your mention of DECA brought up a was of memories. I'd love to talk to people aabout THAT experience. In fact, I think I'll start a DECA thread above.

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Date: Tues, Aug 01, 2000 at 02:30:18 (GMT)
From: la-ex
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: Who owns the Malibu residence?
Message:
Joe-I would say that the current house would be worth at least 20 million or more...
If the original was worth 5 mil,this one is much higher...
The house is, I believe, 28,000 square feet, which had to cost at least $300-400/sq. ft., due to high CA. building costs, earthquake specs., and m's ridiculous sense of luxury that he requires.
Plus, the land that was bought about 10 years ago, all around the place, plus a new road to the house,plus land appreciation,plus incredible landscaping, guest house, recording studio...
I'd say 20-25 million...
Of course, it was probably built for 1/2 the normal building costs, as so much labor was either free or starvation wages..
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Date: Tues, Aug 01, 2000 at 04:56:51 (GMT)
From: G
Email: None
To: la-ex
Subject: Seva Corp bought land
Message:
You are correct, Sir. That, and more! Details coming.
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Date: Tues, Aug 01, 2000 at 03:20:06 (GMT)
From: Rob
Email: None
To: la-ex
Subject: Who owns the Malibu residence?
Message:
Talking of slave labor, how about a check of local building permits? Electrical, plumbing, fire, security, pool, roofing, drywall etc etc all have to show up somewhere with permits. Who did the work? Who were the architects?. Did gummy bear have a say in the design? Were the premie 'slaves' licensed, insured contractors?
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Date: Mon, Jul 31, 2000 at 19:01:36 (GMT)
From: Jerry
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: The 'inspiration'
Message:
The Maharaj Ji is a spiritual inspiration for those people who do meditation.

Self deception. What premie thinks of M as only this? And who needs inspiration to meditate? Either you enjoy meditation or you don't. If you do, you meditate. If you don't, you stop, unless of course, you've got some shrieking hamster encouraging you to keep it up; the pot of gold is right at the end of the rainbow; click your heels three times, Dorothy. That's what M is good for.

He's somebody to keep you going when you just want to stop because you really can't think of a good reason to carry on, other than you believe in the hamster. THAT'S what Maharaji is for. I guess you could call that an inspiration, if there was a pot of gold at the end of the rainbow, or Kansas really was just three clicks away. But such isn't the case.

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Date: Mon, Jul 31, 2000 at 16:36:35 (GMT)
From: Finally
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: Onae, Deltek, Jacobs, Milbank
Message:
Interesting:

From Deltek 1997 SEC

OTHER 5% SHAREHOLDERS:
Onae Trust, R.A. Jacobs, Trustee....... 1,515,000 10.0% 200,000 1,315,000 7.8%
Milbank, Tweed, Hadley & McCloy
1 Chase Manhattan Plaza
New York, NY 10005-1413

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Date: Mon, Jul 31, 2000 at 20:42:13 (GMT)
From: Joe
Email: None
To: Finally
Subject: What the numbers mean....
Message:
The SEC requires reporting (either quarterly or annually or both) of sales of stock by entities who own 5% or more of the stock. That's what is being reported here in this 10K or 10Q report.

The Onae Trust, owned 10% of Deltek stock (or did in 1997), and sold 200,000 shares, starting out with 1.515 million shares and ending up with 1.315 million shares.

The Trustee of the Onae Trust is Robert Jacobs of Milbank, Maharaji's and Elan Vital's tax lawyer, you know, the guy who tried to shut down ex-premie websites. Onae Trust is some kind of a cult structure that has been around for a long time, I think, set up to transfer money to Maharaji.

It appears Deltek (Don Delaski and his son) and its owners are some of those wealthy 'contributors' to Maharaji. I think someone mentioned that Ira Woods works for Deltek.

The whole trust thing is a stinking set up to funnel money to M, in my opinion.

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Date: Mon, Jul 31, 2000 at 22:39:15 (GMT)
From: Hmmmm..
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: Does this mean??
Message:
Are these shares publicly traded?
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Date: Mon, Jul 31, 2000 at 23:21:21 (GMT)
From: Joe
Email: None
To: Hmmmm..
Subject: Does this mean??
Message:
Yes, they appear to be.
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Date: Tues, Aug 01, 2000 at 01:00:07 (GMT)
From: Roger eDrek
Email: drek@oz.net
To: Joe
Subject: And that means you can be a shareholder
Message:
And if you are a shareholder you can show up at the annual meeting (unless they are cybercasts) and ask questions until security throws you out.
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Date: Mon, Jul 31, 2000 at 19:34:53 (GMT)
From: G
Email: None
To: Finally
Subject: What do the numbers mean? (nt)
Message:
nt
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Date: Mon, Jul 31, 2000 at 20:43:26 (GMT)
From: Joe
Email: None
To: G
Subject: Sorry, see my post, above (nt)
Message:
nt
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Date: Mon, Jul 31, 2000 at 20:49:05 (GMT)
From: Joe
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: And, also.....
Message:
You probably know this, but after Onae sold 200,000 shares, it then dropped from owning 10% of the stock, to owning 7.8%.
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Date: Mon, Jul 31, 2000 at 20:28:32 (GMT)
From: It means the scamster
Email: None
To: G
Subject: has been around a long time....
Message:
Remember Prem Mark aka Rainbow Grocery?

The Onae Trust, a Qualified Subchapter S Trust and sole owner of Prem Mark

Regards.

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Date: Mon, Jul 31, 2000 at 17:57:49 (GMT)
From: Roger eDrek
Email: drek@oz.net
To: Finally
Subject: Maharaji, the successful private investor
Message:
There it is! Maharaji, the successful private investor.

It sure looks easy, doesn't it.

You arrive in the U.S. in the year 1971 and you are sleeping on couches. A few years later and a few thousand monastic ashram residents along with some other brainwashed devotees all handing over their paychecks, inheritances, trust funds, stock options and building businesses you discover that you are a successful private investor. How convenient.

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Date: Mon, Jul 31, 2000 at 16:28:41 (GMT)
From: buzz
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: divorce
Message:
i know it was my decision to spend more time doing satsang service and meditation but on the stength of the lies fatso propogated ,if only i,d known then what i know now maybe i could have spent more time with my kids and saved my marriage.lying bastard!!
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Date: Mon, Jul 31, 2000 at 17:46:39 (GMT)
From: SB
Email: None
To: buzz
Subject: divorce
Message:
Same here, Buzz. I divorced because I couldn't respect my husband: He didn't love maharaji enough...

The fact that maharaji wants to avoid responsability for the crap he stuffed in our brains even when he knows many of us have videos to prove his encouragement to make us believe he was/is a Satguru shows how deluded he is. He is totally nuts IMO. NUTS! But the deceit is so well orchestrated, so justified at some many levels. What else a follower has to believe by listening to him? The way Lard speaks is so, so sneaky!

The damage he incurred in my life is so great; it covers all areas of my life! And now he thinks he can get off so easily? I don't think so!

When did you left buzz/ I haven't read much about you.

Stay strong and be glad that at least you are out of the cult; imagine how many are never going to be able to leave, how many naive people are going to continue being trapped...We are lucky we saw 'the light'!

Love,

SB

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Date: Mon, Jul 31, 2000 at 21:33:22 (GMT)
From: Lotus Eater
Email: None
To: SB
Subject: damaged lives
Message:
Dear SB,
I am so sorry to hear about your divorce, I left my husband for the lard too, I am still trying to come to terms with that, how I could have caused him such pain. I went to Amaroo, 10 days later, having practised on the flat, I now had control of my bike and 'wheeeee' went flying down a hill, splat. I was carted out of the place in an ambulance, four broken bones! I lay in the emergency room waiting for my x-rays and slowly realised that Scotty wasn't going to beam me up, I was in a phenomenal lot of pain, it wasn't going away, and I was going to have to stay with it, boy.....not happy! Not to worry, holy name will take me in, er, actually no, pain has a way of keeping you in the here and now...my husband came and picked me up, he's a hell of a guy. We are still healing, and it hasn't been a picnic, but I am very grateful we are still married. LE
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Date: Mon, Jul 31, 2000 at 21:52:24 (GMT)
From: SB
Email: None
To: Lotus Eater
Subject: damaged lives
Message:
Curious. Is he a premie?

My ex-husband is and more devotee than ever. Life is full of ironies. The 'Mickey mouse God' is never available...it doesn't exist! Sorry about your broken bones. :0

Glad to hear that you have a good guy by you! I'm envious.

;)

SB

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Date: Mon, Jul 31, 2000 at 21:49:31 (GMT)
From: Joe
Email: None
To: Lotus Eater
Subject: damaged lives
Message:
I'm glad to hear there is healing going on, LE. Good for you. Hope you are recovered from you fall.

I wasn't married or in a relationship when I got involved with Maharaji, but for the 9 years I was in the ashram, I wonder what kind of relationships I missed during that time. I guess that is missed opportunities.

I turned down a full scholarship to law school to enter the ashram. It seemed since the living god was here walking on earth, what was I doing going to school? This was, of course, devastating to my parents, but they always said I had to make my own decisions.

I really regret the pain I caused my family. My brother and dad died a few years ago, and I regret the many family occasions I missed, funerals, even my own little sister's wedding, because I was being a monastic, attending a festival or whatever. My little sister got married on July 31, 1982, the same weekend as Guru Puja festival in Miami. So, that's where I was, obviously, trying to be the surrendered devotee, like Maharaji said we should be. It wasn't long after that when I left.

I also lost all my friends from before I received knowledge, except for one or two whom I harrassed into becoming premies themselves. I can think of two cases, and both of them lasted about a year before seeing the bullshit it was long before I did. They just kind of disappeared, in retrospect, I wish they had shaken me hard and gotten me out, but maybe I was just too much of a die-hard premie to have even heard them.

I really feel for some of the people I knew who were married with kids. They often felt so torn between what they instinctively knew was right for their children, while at the same time being cajoled to focus only on M and be with him whenever possible, support him financially, etc.

But the biggest regret for me is those wasted years.

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Date: Mon, Jul 31, 2000 at 19:41:32 (GMT)
From: buzz
Email: None
To: SB
Subject: divorce
Message:
hi sb
sorry to hear you had same unhappiness.when did i leave good question.its hard to say. even after getting k in 72 i still searched around in books and meetings.guess i never quite fell totally for it,but enough to wreck my relationship.not been to a main event for 6 yrs ,brighton i think waste of time that was,im more into kriya yoga now but i'll never let it come between me and another human being,i miss the premies and loved the first couple of years,i find med much stronger now but i really want to see fatty get his cards,how about you?are you from uk or usa?
luv
buzz.
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Date: Mon, Jul 31, 2000 at 20:12:12 (GMT)
From: SB
Email: None
To: buzz
Subject: divorce
Message:
Southamerica, but I live in the US.

My family didn't want to know anything about me for years because of my involvement with the cult. My mother and rest are today so relieved that I finally understood the truth about Lard, but for many years she wouldn't speak with me for all the hurtful things i talked to her to defend my premie life.

You say med, as in medication? I didn't get that.

Have you posted here in the past? Reading this forum has helpped me inmensely! Take the good with the bad, as with everything else, except with maharaji's crap. That is unforgivable!

Love,

SB

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Date: Mon, Jul 31, 2000 at 23:32:48 (GMT)
From: Lurkex
Email: None
To: SB
Subject: I nearly divorced then just in time...
Message:
the ashrams closed. We were a devoted married couple, but very torn between what the Lard was saying (real devotees give everything --anyone remember the Ecknot story, repeated ad nauseam, about the REAL devotee who left his aged parents for his guru; it was very subtle!).

This is without a doubt the thing that I am most angry at MJ for: the callous way he encouraged the separation of families and discouraged people who were in love from being together. I was very happy in my marriage, which was starting to heal me after the isolation of spending my twenties in the ashram. Then when he reopened the ashrams and put on so much pressure, I felt ill and crazy, and I actually got quite ill, with conditions I am still dealing with 20 years later. It was too confusing to feel that something was right and healing and then be told that I had to give that up again. I felt ripped in two. All the rest of my experience with MJ seems fairly humorous relative to his whole destruction of families and relationships, which I think was and is incredibly cruel.

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Date: Tues, Aug 01, 2000 at 01:15:04 (GMT)
From: SB
Email: None
To: Lurkex
Subject: I nearly divorced then just in time...
Message:
I hear you...Cruel is a good word to define his trick! This is one of the reasons why I'm VERY angry too: He laughed at family, he laughed at friendships, he basically laughed at human love, and the damage he inflicted in people's minds created an unnecesary battle inside, pain that we didn't have to feel. He laughed at careers too,suggesting for so long that other than surrendering yourself to him, all was BS. Who is laughing now? Not me!

Say that in the 70s he was young and now, what is his problem? He must continue hurting people's minds overtly?? Have he changed his message? NO! The message is the same, except that today he does it sneaking his words, but it's the same.

Look at what he said at Amaroo 1996:

It's the Master who must be pleased, not ego.

But few minutes later he would say enjoy whatever you do. He doesn't make sense and we wanted to understand what he was telling us so bad because WE TRUSTED HIM. Our pay for trusting him was pain, pain trying to make sense of... what?? Looking for guidance we got so lost into his empty double message concepts because we couldn't apply them to our everyday life...I remember having sometimes a very strong feeling of being alone, not being part of 'the world' and today I know that came from him, his indoctrination that beside Knowledge all is fake made me feel dettached to what I'm supposed to be connected, repeling what I needed, to be human, not his worshiper. So, what happened to me and so many others? We were young and fresh, and he abused a part of us so, so private that in my case, I doubt my life would ever be as it was when I met him 25 years a go.

The reality is that when a person is under 'his spell', the 'spell' doesn't allow the person to reason properly, to make practical decissions, to value what needs to be valued.

The double messages he sends go someplace deep and confusion is the result. Genetically we want to have human experiences and having THE LARD tell you that all is an ilussion, a waste of time, etc., what are the effects of all those years hearing the same crap going to be? Not good. Struggling. ALL premies I know have issues with close relationships. I hate him with passion!

I noticed that you posted few days a go for the first time, is it? Or have you posted before, in the past?

I'm glad that you didn't get hurt much.

Take care,

SB

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Date: Tues, Aug 01, 2000 at 14:14:09 (GMT)
From: Salam
Email: None
To: SB
Subject: WE TRUSTED HIM
Message:
I guess that is the hardest part of it. Imagine giving your life, your heart your whole being to someone you trust, then that person betrays you knowingly, lies to you so that he can carry on stealing from you. I worked in a prison for a while and have seen a lot of scum bags, gm defenitly tops the list.
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Date: Tues, Aug 01, 2000 at 15:00:22 (GMT)
From: SB
Email: None
To: Salam
Subject: WE TRUSTED HIM
Message:
What I find outrageous is that he think he can get away with it!
Maybe he is dumber than what I ever thought.

I hate him, I truly do and I'm not ashamed to say it. I hate his persona. He is a depicable person.

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Date: Mon, Jul 31, 2000 at 13:09:51 (GMT)
From: Stonor
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: Three Cheers for Forum V and all the exes!
Message:
To paraphrase a commentary on the Silva Method which I found on a recent search:

Judging from the large quantity of apostate literature on m, there can be little doubt that many of m's clients are highly dissatisfied.

In sum, the Silva Method is grounded in spiritual presuppositions and teachings that are accepted on faith- not withstanding the fact that truth claims are made. Judging from the dearth of apostate literature , there can be little doubt that the Silva Method has produced many satisfied clients. In the final analysis, the Silva Method proves itself to be a contemporary belief system that must be understood in quasi-religious terms.

from:
Silva Method commentary

An interestingly simple check on a 'guru's' 'integrity', greatly facilitated by the web!

Three Cheers for Forum V and all the exes for presenting an increasingly complete picture of m!

Stonor

(Will try to see if they have anything on m.)

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Date: Mon, Jul 31, 2000 at 13:27:02 (GMT)
From: Stonor
Email: None
To: Stonor
Subject: PS: gm and Ex-premie.org links + all available
Message:
Here's their homepage - seems to be a good general source:

Religious Movements Homepage at the University of Virginia

They have Anth's journey and Mishler's story etc.

Stonor

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Date: Mon, Jul 31, 2000 at 06:54:58 (GMT)
From: sam
Email: -
To: Everyone
Subject: blind faith or reality
Message:
i was telling a premie recently about my doubts and they said 'when your're not in that place you forget or cant understand that its real, then when you are, you KNOW where it is coming from'... what does one say to such things? nothing, anything?
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Date: Mon, Jul 31, 2000 at 16:33:24 (GMT)
From: Joe
Email: None
To: sam
Subject: There isn't an answer, only observation.....
Message:
Your friend is exemplifying the essence of a cult. He or she won't allow doubt to enter, or if it does, they repress it by saying they only let it in because they 'forgot.' It's an endless, circular, closed thought process that makes it very hard to talk rationally to a premie about Maharaji or knowledge.

What your friend is really saying is:

When I don't doubt or question I am in 'that place.'
When I do doubt or question I am not in 'that place.'

Since doubting = being in the 'wrong' place, I ignore all doubts and assume anyone who has them has forgotten 'that place.'

Like Gregg said, it's a convenient way to discount and ignore people who say knowledge doesn't work, Maharaji is a fraud and the like.

I think the way to respond to your friend, is to just let him or her see that even though you entertain such doubts, you actually feel better, are happier, freer, and enjoy your life a lot more than you did when you thought like your friend does. That is VERY confronting to a premie, however, and so usually if that happens, the premie will stop hanging around with you, because it makes them 'doubt' more and it takes a lot of work and energy, and engenders a lot of fear, when they have doubts.

This is one of the reasons premies like 'events' so much. It's one place that they are pretty certain, since everyone around them is also an avid cult member, spewing cult nonsense non-stop, and because Maharaji speaks as if he is absolutely sure, that they won't be confronted with doubts. And that is a real relief to most premies. So, 'events' feel good.

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Date: Tues, Aug 01, 2000 at 02:53:06 (GMT)
From: SB
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: Right on! (nt)
Message:
nt
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Date: Mon, Jul 31, 2000 at 14:37:52 (GMT)
From: Gregg
Email: None
To: sam
Subject: charmingly blind faith
Message:
That is nothing but an attempt to explain something that bugs premies so much: us. EX-premies. After all, if the 'experience' is so supreme, how could one possibly turn her back on it (and on Him, too)?

If premie theology included Satan, the answer would be self-evident. (Satan answers a lot of questions. Religion purports to answer questions of life's purpose, life after death, good and evil...and evil is a tough nut to crack without simplifying/personifying it.)

Anyway, that premie answer is bullshit. First of all, I can remember 'that place' clearly, even twenty-odd years later.

Also, even as a premie, one is not always in 'that place.' And although your premie friends will not likely admit it, premies will sometimes use MEMORIES of 'that place' to bolster their faith in those times of doubt.

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Date: Mon, Jul 31, 2000 at 07:19:40 (GMT)
From: ham
Email: None
To: sam
Subject: blind faith or reality
Message:
You can't argue with the experience, you've got to come from the angle that gm is not special or required for the experience, and since he's now admitted there's no juju involved, how else can he give auto-k via the web & TV, etc etc then it's down to techniques and they're bog standard yoga techniques.

It's their explanations for the experiences that are at fault, the experience is quite often for real, and I reckon for certain chemical release via bio-feedback, third eye triggers melatonin (mescaline related), suspect there is serotonin triggered by the others (key neuro-transmitter). Other spiritual followers of other gurus have these experiences too, so did followers of the grateful dead, it's a chemikal release.

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Date: Mon, Jul 31, 2000 at 04:34:46 (GMT)
From: Rob
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: Here's why they need to be a Church
Message:
Even though, by all (IRS) definitions and precedents(cf thread below), their own failure to claim such on their website or other publications, and by the general understanding of everyone concerned, they would appear NOT to be a 'church', their classification as such shields them from the following:-


Extract from 26 USC 6033

(a) Organizations required to file

(1) In general

Except as provided in paragraph (2), every organization exempt`from taxation under section 501(a) shall file an annual return, stating specifically the items of gross income, receipts, and disbursements, and such other information for the purpose of carrying out the internal revenue laws as the Secretary may by forms or regulations prescribe, and shall keep such records, render under oath such statements, make such other returns, and comply with such rules and regulations as the Secretary may from time to time prescribe; except that, in the discretion of the Secretary, any organization described in section 401(a) may be relieved from stating in its return any information which is reported in returns filed by the employer which established such organization.

(2) Exceptions from filing

(A) Mandatory exceptions

Paragraph (1) shall not apply to -

(i) churches, their integrated auxiliaries, and conventions
or associations of churches,

(ii) any organization (other than a private foundation, as
defined in section 509(a)) described in subparagraph (C), the
gross receipts of which in each taxable year are normally not
more than $5,000, or

(iii) the exclusively religious activities of any religious order.

(b) Certain organizations described in section 501(c)(3)

Every organization described in section 501(c)(3) which is subject to the requirements of subsection (a) shall furnish annually information, at such time and in such manner as the Secretary may by forms or regulations prescribe, setting forth -

(1) its gross income for the year,

(2) its expenses attributable to such income and incurred within the year,

(3) its disbursements within the year for the purposes for which it is exempt,

(4) a balance sheet showing its assets, liabilities, and net worth as of the beginning of such year,

(5) the total of the contributions and gifts received by it during the year, and the names and addresses of all substantial contributors,

(6) the names and addresses of its foundation managers (within the meaning of section 4946(b)(1)) and highly compensated employees,

(7) the compensation and other payments made during the year to each individual described in paragraph (6)

The list goes on. The point is, had they not declared themselves to be a church, this information (with certain exceptions) would be available to any individual requesting it. Which would be useful for any person considering making charitable donations, especially large ones, wishing to be sure the money is properly spent.

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Date: Tues, Aug 01, 2000 at 02:13:00 (GMT)
From: Know It All
Email: None
To: Rob
Subject: Here's why they need to be a Church
Message:
Maybe lots of people should be asking for this information that you are mentioning and then see what happens. I don't think it can hurt. After all, I am Know It All.
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Date: Tues, Aug 01, 2000 at 03:54:57 (GMT)
From: Rob
Email: None
To: Know It All
Subject: Go for it, KIA (nt)
Message:
nt
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Date: Mon, Jul 31, 2000 at 16:07:48 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Rob
Subject: What exactly are you guys complaining about?
Message:
I don't get it. You guys seem to be quite perturbed about this so-called 'disclosure issue'. But it makes me wonder, have any of you actually read EV's website? If you have, you must have noticed there's a page that clearly answers all the questions that even the most critical busy-body might have. Here, look:

EV Voluntary Contributions
66.67%

Visions Sales and
Support
33.33%

Knowledge Promotion, Events & Tours
59.67%

Visions Material Development, Production & Distribution
33.33%

General & Administrative

7.00%

They've even divided it all into two categories, 'revenues' and 'expenses'. I'm not sure if they had to do that but they did. So I really don't see what the problem is.

Just trying to be fair....

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Date: Mon, Jul 31, 2000 at 22:57:30 (GMT)
From: Rob
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: You had me worried for a minute there!
Message:
Thought you'd flipped back to the other side while I've been offline. Missed your unique humor.

BTW, as a Canadian taxpayer, what exactly is your interest in this matter, hmmm? ;)

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Date: Mon, Jul 31, 2000 at 16:38:47 (GMT)
From: Joe
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Any Idea what 'Visions Support' is?
Message:
Do you think that is some kind of program for helping people improve their eyesight? I bet it is. And since there is also 'Visions Material Development,' that money probably goes to producing new Braile materials for the blind. And we thought the DUO proclamation was dead!!!
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Date: Mon, Jul 31, 2000 at 05:59:02 (GMT)
From: SB
Email: None
To: Rob
Subject: LIKE us exes, who would like to know how the...
Message:
money we donated was spent.

What is next then?

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Date: Mon, Jul 31, 2000 at 06:44:55 (GMT)
From: Rob
Email: None
To: SB
Subject: The next step.....
Message:
....is for any ex who understands and can interpret the tax laws to verify all this information, then contact the relevant department in the IRS requesting that they investigate EV's claim to be a church, on the grounds that for the past 29(?) years since being granted tax-exemption status under 26 USC 501(c)(3), they have not filed the Form 990 and other information which would have been mandatory had their status not been registered as a church, which it appears they should not have, given the definitions and Court precedents quoted in the IRS Exempt Organization Manual (extracts in thread below).

Remember also, that under 26 USC 6104(a)(1)(A), approved exemption applications and supporting documents are available for public inspection. In other words, one can request the documents in which the original claim to be a church was made.

It is entirely possible that in 1971(?), Divine Light Mission, as it was then, may have been able to put forward a convincing claim for annual filing exemption on the grounds it was a church, but I seriously doubt that a fresh look by the IRS at its current incarnation would yield the same result. (cf thread below and 'Burden of Proof' notes: simply put, the burden of proof would be on them to prove they were a indeed a church. Yeah, right!)

IMO, it would also fail the litmus test as a Section 501(c)(3) exempt corporation also, but one step at a time eh?

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Date: Mon, Jul 31, 2000 at 14:12:13 (GMT)
From: Joe
Email: None
To: Rob
Subject: The next step/tax fraud.....
Message:
Rob, like we were saying down below, I think the 'next step' for anyone who wanted to follow up on this line, is to get a copy of the application for exemption (the application in which Elan Vital argued is WAS a church) and compare that to the reality of Elan Vital. Either the IRS would change its mind, and Elan Vital would have to become more transparent and disclose financial information, OR it will be really embarrassing to Elan Vital, because their website will be seen to be even more filled with lies.

As I understand the IRS Code, either Elan Vital has to make a copy of the application available at its offices for any member of the public who requests it, or they have to mail a copy of it to you. (I guess they could also post it on the Internet.) As I understand it, that is the law, and EV can be fined if they don't comply. Like Joey and I were saying down below, I think somebody should send a letter to Elan Vital asking to see the application for exemption with a CC of the letter going to the IRS. Then, it will be Elan Vital's burden to either comply, or explain why they don't have to, and it will alert the IRS that there are concerns about this organization. If EV doesn't comply, the IRS can be asked to impose fines.

Also, DLM/EV has changed its status a couple of times over the years since 1972. First, it was a church, then it changed to being a charitable institution, and apparently now it has changed back (I think in the late 80s) in order to avoid financial scrutiny, even by the people who donate money to it. (In the early 70s ashram residents were classified as 'monastics' by the IRS and we didn't even have income taxes withheld from our salaries. EV lost that status in an IRS ruling, I think in 1975). By the way, this is a common strategy of cults -- getting the IRS to classify you as a church and keep your finances secret and there are those who are trying to make the church exemption harder to get.

Now, in terms of tax fraud, the biggest thing the IRS would be concerned about would be if Elan Vital was using it's non-profit, tax-exempt, church status to be funneling money to an individual like Prem Pal Singh Rawat for instance, as a means of avoiding income taxes. Because the IRS has gone after them before for this, that's why M's website and EV's website bend over backwards to say that none of its money EV collects goes to Maharaji. But there are many ways to skin that cat. If EV, for example, rents the plane from a company M flies to 'events' EV 'sponsors', but that company is merely a shell corporation run by premies, which takes the 'profits' for the rental, which can be some arbitray non-market driven amount since this isn't a 'real' transaction, just a paper one, and give it to M, that is getting close to tax fraud, in my humble, non-lawyer opinion. It sure smells very fishy in the least.

And who knows how EV 'reimburses' 'expenses' for Maharaji to got to and speak at 'events.' Lots of room for fraud there, too.

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Date: Tues, Aug 01, 2000 at 02:33:48 (GMT)
From: VP
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: The next step/tax fraud.....
Message:
Yes, I agree that their website is full of embarrasing lies. But if they have to lose the church statement, they will all just pretend they never said it and the premies can feign amnesia like they always do. Come on, premies--Either EV is a church, or it isn't a church. Seems 'simple' doesn't it?

That is the irony in all of this. He preaches 'simple' and makes everything so very complex. That is the trouble with lies and deceit. They complicate everything!

I hope someone will follow up on this tax angle. It would be great if EV's finances could come under close scrutiny by the IRS and even better if they lost their church status and were made to pay taxes.

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Date: Tues, Aug 01, 2000 at 03:52:47 (GMT)
From: Rob
Email: None
To: VP
Subject: The next step/tax fraud.....
Message:
Hi VP

I think the point about the 'church' status, apart from the fact that Elan Vital most certainly is NOT one, is that they would have to disclose all the information noted in a previous thread of mine, some (but not all) of which would be available for public scrutiny.

They may not actually have tax to pay initially, but the point is they would have to produce documentation to demonstrate all of their financial dealings. Not just simple input vs output, as Jim joked about, but figures, sources, invoices, transfers, payroll, purchases, capital gains, assets....the whole pinada.

That may prove a little difficult, especially when it comes to accounting for international support of other EV organisations, if such takes place, or explaining the 'charitable' or 'public good' angle of excessive luxury items and lifestyles.

It might also shed some unwanted light on whether the IRS would consider Mr Rawat as a 'specific person who benefits' as in:-

[7.8.2] 3.3.7 (02-23-1999)

Charitable Class Requirement

A charitable organization or trust must be set up for the benefit of an indefinite class of individuals, not for specific persons. A trust or corporation organized and operated for the benefit of specific individuals is not charitable

Now EV quite clearly states that its purpose is to help Maharaji in his work. Could it not be argued then that this is to fulfil some private dream of his, however altruistic it may appear, and thus is not charitable by definition? Why does not EV offer to help me fulfil my dream of becoming an inspiring, spiritual writer? Are not my esoteric tomes just as beneficial to the American taxpaying public?

Also:-

Reg. 1.501(c)(3)-1(c)......places the focus of the inurement proscription on those who, by virtue of a special relationship with the organization in question, are able to influence the expenditure of its funds or the use of its assets, rather than on the general public...

See, once you open the can, all manner of worms come wriggling out:)

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Date: Mon, Jul 31, 2000 at 16:21:12 (GMT)
From: Joe
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: By the way Rob...
Message:
Thanks for uncovering all this information on the IRS status of Elan Vital.

I have a suggestion for someone preferably someone in the LA area, that they send the request letter and be willing to go to the Elan Vital offices and examine the application. The rest of us could make a big stink if Elan Vital refuses to comply.

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Date: Mon, Jul 31, 2000 at 22:54:30 (GMT)
From: Rob
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: By the way Rob...
Message:
Thanks Joe, but I was just participating in sync with the rest of the team, and am very grateful for the opportunity.

Seriously though, somebody else (oops forget who, sorry) took the trouble to download and extract from Publication 78 the EV status info, I was just having fun drilling down into the IRS web pages.

Great idea for a trip to the EV office (what is the street address BTW?) but I'm in the Big Easy right now, although the IRS do say that if they have registered offices around the country, each one is supposed to have copies of the papers available. I'd also like to see their Articles of Incorporation, as these have to pass the Organisational & Operational Tests also to retain Charity status. A great starting link for E.O. material is:-

http://www.irs.ustreas.gov/prod/bus_info/eo/index.html

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Date: Mon, Jul 31, 2000 at 16:26:21 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: Good idea but don't forget to call first
Message:
I agree. Good work, for sure, Rob. And yes, it would be great if someone in L.A. could do that. I'd suggest, as well, that they don't go alone but preferably show up with two other people. Not because of any sort of anticipated physical confrontation. Not at all. But simply so that there are always witnesses to the conversation in case EV stonewalls. The initial conversation might prove relevant to something or other some time.

But please, call first! I get the distinct impression that no one's home most fo the time. :)

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Date: Tues, Aug 01, 2000 at 00:52:34 (GMT)
From: Rob
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Although it may not be necessary
Message:
Jim am I reading this right, because it sounds like one can get the info required from the IRS directly (you're more used to interpretting this legal stuff)

Reprinted from thread below:

[7.8.2] 49.3 (02-23-1999)
Publicity of Information Required From Certain Exempt Organizations and Certain Trusts

IRC 6104 governs the public disclosure by the IRS of most of the information required from exempt organizations including:

exemption applications,
any papers submitted in support of an exemption application,
any letter or other document issued by the Service with respect to an application for recognition of exemption, and
annual information returns.

IRC 6104(a)(1) makes available to the public upon request the approved exemption application, supporting documents, and Service letters or documents issued with respect to the approved application, of any organization recognized as exempt under IRC 501(c) or (d).

This information is available for any taxable year the organization is or was recognized as exempt beginning after October 31, 1976. Prior to that date, the effective date of 90 Stat. 1667 amending IRC 6104(a)(1)(A), only approved exemption applications and supporting documents were available for public inspection.

In light of the general availability of approved applications and supporting documents, IRC 6104(a)(1) also empowers the Service to disclose the subsection and paragraph of IRC 501 under which an organization has been determined to qualify for exemption, and to state whether an organization is currently recognized as exempt. IRC 6104(a) information may be released only after an organization's exemption application has been approved and it is available for public inspection. For a discussion of how this IRC 6104(a) information is disclosed, see Disclosure of Official Information Handbook, IRM 1.3.

7.10.1.3.1 (04/01/99)
Public Inspection of EO Documents
When a taxpayer requests copies of or asks to inspect exempt organization documents, EO specialists may assist them in preparing Form 4506-A, Request for Public Inspection Copy of Exempt Organization Document, and in forwarding these forms to the Ogden Service Center.

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Date: Tues, Aug 01, 2000 at 02:09:18 (GMT)
From: G
Email: None
To: Rob
Subject: Form 4506-A Request for Public Inspection or Copy
Message:
You can download the form, click on the following:

http://ftp.fedworld.gov/pub/irs-pdf/f4506a.pdf

(in PDF format)

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Date: Mon, Jul 31, 2000 at 06:56:45 (GMT)
From: SB
Email: None
To: Rob
Subject: Thanks Rob
Message:
I'm reading all and visiting other sites too.

You are doing a Great Job!!!

;)

S

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Date: Mon, Jul 31, 2000 at 06:35:45 (GMT)
From: sam
Email: -
To: SB
Subject: LIKE us exes, who would like to know how the...
Message:
apart from the fortune m spends himself, there are still a lot of people in employment (paid) that seem to do very little useful things- I think a lot of premies dont know where their money is going and of course would not question
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Date: Mon, Jul 31, 2000 at 06:51:57 (GMT)
From: SB
Email: None
To: sam
Subject: I did question
Message:
But of course, most premies are in such a desperate situation, longing, weak, needy, that they can only make it to the next fix/satellite/video crap...can't reason.

A premie, his initials are KC, told me few days a go that maharaji is such a pure being that he doesn't have the capacity to lie. Also, most premies think that mahariachi is unaware of what Elan Vital does. Can you imagine 'that concept'? Old premies, the ones who participate and follow Elan Vital's crap are mentally gone: 100% programmed with his shit. The devotees who believe mahariachi is the LARD are the only ones who have 'important' positions. Only old premies!

Do you remember when maharaji said that the mind had to desapear? He did it, eh? He drove everybody nuts with his double messages, nevertheless, he manages always to cover all areas of deceipt and keeps everybody hopeful and happy. If karma exists what would be his?

He'll be born in a little town in Africa, with no water... hahahaha....I hate him, can you tell?

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Date: Mon, Jul 31, 2000 at 14:09:26 (GMT)
From: Stonor
Email: None
To: SB
Subject: re: mixed messages ...
Message:
Hi SB!

My old psycho psychologist prof boyfriend, who specialized in abnormal psych, used to say that if you gave a borderline schizophrenic enough mixed messages, they would go over the edge. It didn't work on me, but he certainly tried! And I do wonder about the effects of mixed messages on the general population - there must be degrees of schizophrenia (Nigel?). I know there are many who believe that we are generally all divided between our'selves' and our 'cultural' upbringing/socialization.

Stonor

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Date: Mon, Jul 31, 2000 at 18:00:34 (GMT)
From: SB
Email: None
To: Stonor
Subject: re: mixed messages ...
Message:
Hi Stonor!

My old psycho psychologist prof boyfriend, who specialized in abnormal psych, used to say that if you gave a borderline schizophrenic enough mixed messages, they would go over the edge. It didn't work on me, but he certainly tried! And I do wonder about the effects of mixed messages on the general population - there must be degrees of schizophrenia (Nigel?). I know there are many who believe that we are generally all divided between our'selves' and our 'cultural' upbringing/socialization.

It didn't work on me, but he certainly tried!

What didn't work on you?

I know there are many who believe that we are generally all divided between our'selves' and our 'cultural' upbringing/socialization.

I don't know if I got what you said. I take it that you are refering that we adapt to function in society from the perception we have of ourselves (self-identity) and balancing that with what society tells us we should be.

Stonor, english is my second language and I want to understand what you wrote. Give me a hand, would you? What exactly the psycology professor told you. I don't get it.

Thanks,

SB, trying to understand what happened to my head. ;)

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Date: Mon, Jul 31, 2000 at 22:45:19 (GMT)
From: Stonor
Email: None
To: SB
Subject: re: mixed messages ...
Message:
if I don't write much does it post?
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Date: Mon, Jul 31, 2000 at 22:46:04 (GMT)
From: Stonor
Email: None
To: Stonor
Subject: re: mixed messages ... part 1?
Message:
Hi SB!

Wish my Spanish was half as good as your English!!

What didn't work were his efforts to push me over the edge and into his total control by giving me mixed messages. I love you I want to marry you, but I don't love you (ie. will punish you) if you don't do as I say, etc. A standard ploy to dominate the more submissive, which our 'cult'ure has dictated for millenia is the proper/true(?!) male/female relationship.

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Date: Mon, Jul 31, 2000 at 22:52:00 (GMT)
From: Stonor
Email: None
To: SB
Subject: re: mixed messages ... part 2?
Message:
To relate it to m is easy - he changes his story to suit his immediate needs, sets himself up as love personified - then threatens like a sick bully, not receiving his 'grace' is your own fault rather than a result of his overblown claims or poor 'guru' skills, and of course, abstinence and poverty for you - lust and luxury for me.

You seem to have a good handle on the second part,

I don't know if I got what you said. I take it that you are refering that we adapt to function in society from the perception we have of ourselves (self-identity) and balancing that with what society tells us we should be.

but I'd word it a bit more strongly. In general I don't think there is a 'balance' but a subjugation of the self to the societal norms. (I'm really sorry about the terminology, but at the same time I know that many of the latin-based words are virtually the same in Spanish (French, Italian, etc.). Many are little more than empty shells, saying what they've learned to say, liking what they've learned is 'right' to like, and so on, and of course, the reverse, not doing what they've learned not to do etc.

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Date: Mon, Jul 31, 2000 at 22:53:11 (GMT)
From: Stonor
Email: None
To: SB
Subject: re: mixed messages ... part 3? and FA?
Message:
I think this may be at the root of ideas of getting in touch with your 'true self' through meditation for example, and escaping the maya through detachment. I also believe that m and others like him are following a twisted and highly manipulative (mis)interpretation of these concepts.

I appreciate your request for clarification - please let me know anytime if what I write is not clear for you - when talking about these things clarity can be a challenge in any language! ;-)

Love,
Stonor

PS: FA . . . What is going on?

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Date: Tues, Aug 01, 2000 at 02:47:27 (GMT)
From: SB
Email: None
To: Stonor
Subject: re: mixed messages ... part 3? and FA?
Message:
but I'd word it a bit more strongly. In general I don't think there is a 'balance' but a subjugation of the self to the societal norms.

I agree with you that there is no balance, but a coping mechanism to make sense of what the world tell us we are and our self identity and personal values.

Are premies connected with their true self? What a laugh. They LONG for him. They are so weak, pathetic and boring. What is very wrong is that the presentation is good, it looks so inspiring and innocent but it's venom. The way he justifies the need for a master is so sneaky to the point that even 'smart' educated people fall for it. That is what I have a need to put in words, to explain how all happens, how people fall the trap. Now I see that what I was trying to do 'needing maharaji's teachings' I was NEVER going to get it! Even that at times I though 'I got it'. And I'm talking about those so many satsangs where he said that only few were going to REALIZE knowledge. Premies were/are incited to reach 'deeper', further, etc. and is all a lie. That 'place' doesn't exists! He creates a nice dream in people's head, even that what brought them to him was a need for true reality, well, so we thought that existed.

Thanks for complementing on my english. Yes, the roots are very similar. Nevertheless, communicating in other language is all weird to me, still; I have trouble sometimes finding a easy way to say something, but, that maybe goes in the territory of not being a good writer...hahahaha. To pest Lard I can make a fool of myself. LOL.

More love,

SB

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Date: Tues, Aug 01, 2000 at 03:30:43 (GMT)
From: Stonor
Email: None
To: SB
Subject: re: mixed messages ... part 3? and FA?
Message:
Hi SB,

Glad my post made sense in the end. I read a post of yours above to Lotus Eater or Lurkex and I was thinking that you gave far better examples of the mixed messages that m gave than this poor non-anything could ever dream of. And of course the ultimate mind-fuck of it all is that he has perched himself on such a lofty pedestal to enslave those looking to him for guidance. I have cried a lot as I have learned more about cults and how they've sucked so many good souls into fruitless 'service' and mindless 'bliss'.

How is your garden growing? I need to start cooking and freezing now, on top of trying to take care of mine!

Stonor

PS Hope this posts!

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Date: Tues, Aug 01, 2000 at 07:20:11 (GMT)
From: SB
Email: None
To: Stonor
Subject: re: mixed messages ... part 3? and FA?
Message:
I feel so, so offended by bastardiji, I can't even explain...I came across these papers, notes that a premie made to remember what each video is about (like they vary much LOL) and it reminded me of so much crap he put in my head! EX:

Ideas are like pesticides, will kill Knowledge.

Time to maharaji comes back as wisdom. Time to the world comes back as frustration.

They dance. Others wonder what they're doing, but we don't have time to explain - too busy enjoying.

m can tell you things no one else can. (The biggest lies)

That's why a Master is needed, so he can fix things whatever his hands touches, that which human beings have spoiled.

We accepted slavery as master.

Then, even participation becomes magic.

A student does what he does to make the master happy.

Love, devotion belong to maharaji. (Video Fall In Love 6/97)

The most outregous I read today: from the video Geneva Morning Event, PWK only, April 14 1996:

We think we know strenght. Inner is real strenght. m is also our strenght. Master has NEVER used threat that bad will happen if you don't practice Knowledge. No rotten vegetables?

Oh, but how the premies receive that? When you have heard a thousand times over two or more decades you KNOW THAT YOU SHOULD NOT STOP MEDITATING. Lies to us, ex-premies. To premies those inconsistencies don't matter. Their fanaticism and idolatry toward mahalard blinds them. In 1999 he talked about the grace of the master at a India program, grace as with GOD or kiddiegod? For the premies is all a lila, or more, what he says don't matter much because he wants to brake their concepts to help them be free. How ridiculous, but it works wonders for him. Talked since the seventies about 'the thief' and that ended up being him! He is an idiot!

The garden looks great. How is yours? Vegetables too?

TC

SB

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Date: Tues, Aug 01, 2000 at 14:54:48 (GMT)
From: Stonor
Email: None
To: SB
Subject: Yes, fresh organic vegetables, a good idea, no? 1
Message:
Hi SB,

That's an unbelievable list! (Are you trying to make me cry first thing in the morning? ;-) His 'truth' is so shockingly distorted!

Ideas are like pesticides, (they) will kill Knowledge.

Not in my garden and life, not that my ideas are always good! ;-)

Time to maharaji comes back as wisdom. Time to the world comes back as frustration.

If your premie friend's list is an example of the 'wisdom' to be gained through m, I'm glad I took my chances with believing that All is 'God', and can teach me to be wise if I observ, listen, and work. (part 1, posting problem continues)

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Date: Tues, Aug 01, 2000 at 16:37:34 (GMT)
From: SB
Email: None
To: Stonor
Subject: She was paraphrasing Lard
Message:
Some are exact quotes. I'm working on a very nice list of stupid quotes of our LARD. ;)

I'm reading the next one now.

Why are you posting like that?! Poor Stonor :(

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Date: Tues, Aug 01, 2000 at 17:12:09 (GMT)
From: Stonor
Email: None
To: SB
Subject: Help!! Any techies!! Posting problem continues!!
Message:
Hi SB,

All of a sudden, at no forum of the 4 I've tried in the last 24 hours, can I post more than a short paragraph. After a couple of minutes spinning its gears, it says something about network socket not connected, try again. It is trying to make me crazy, but I won't let it. I apologize again. I've spoken to 4 or 5 techies now, and we still can't figure it out. Same problem with both Netscape and Explorer. The last option is to custom de- and re-install both browsers, which Apple tech is willing to talk me through. I'm waiting to hear back from higher technical support from my server first - should be within the next 24 hours.

Thank you for your sympathy SB.

Yes, Stonor is :-(

Hope this posts no problem.

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Date: Tues, Aug 01, 2000 at 15:33:14 (GMT)
From: Stonor
Email: None
To: SB
Subject: Yes, fresh organic vegetables, a good idea, no? 2
Message:
They dance. Others wonder what they're doing, but we don't have time to explain - too busy enjoying.

Those poor 'spiritual bastards' (m's words for those who have no guru, which is exactly the same, IMO, as the old churchian view that those without 'Christ' as their master are doomed to hell.) And how could they 'explain' anything if m teaches premies not to think, or explain, but only to propagate?

m can tell you things no one else can. (The biggest lies)

Good one SB!

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Date: Tues, Aug 01, 2000 at 15:40:32 (GMT)
From: Stonor
Email: None
To: SB
Subject: Yes, fresh organic vegetables, a good idea, no? 3
Message:
We accepted slavery as master.

That's a good way of describing m . . . but that's not what he meant here, I don't think ;-)

A student does what he does to make the master happy. Love, devotion belong to maharaji. (Video Fall In Love 6/97)

Again I wonder how anyone could accept this idea without believing that m is 'God.' And what about the rest of 'God's' creation? Oh yes, enjoy it, but it's all maya?!!!!

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Date: Tues, Aug 01, 2000 at 15:41:34 (GMT)
From: Stonor
Email: None
To: SB
Subject: Yes, fresh organic vegetables, a good idea, no? 4
Message:
We think we know strenght. Inner is real strenght. m is also our strenght. Master has NEVER used threat that bad will happen if
you don't practice Knowledge. No rotten vegetables?

That certainly lets him and anyone else off the hook for sitting around like uprooted vegetables 'enjoying' life while they rot. (so that there is no misunderstanding, I do not believe that meditation in itself is bad at all, to the contrary, except in the context of 'teachings' like m's (now there's an oxymoron).

Thank you for sharing this list with me SB, however disgusting ;-) I'm going to make vegetable soup today. Wish I could invite you to dinner to try it - I'll be thinking of you!

Love,

Stonor

(apologies for last paragraph of part 1 being italicized) i'm sorry it's in two parts - it won't let me post all of it, and I'm hoping it will let me post the second part here)

HELP! HELP! HELP!

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Date: Tues, Aug 01, 2000 at 16:50:28 (GMT)
From: SB
Email: None
To: Stonor
Subject: Yes, fresh organic vegetables, a good idea, no? 4
Message:
Glad you like to humor about with our LARD's gracious shit.

Nothing like it. Is like, if you are going to lie, lie big; that seems to be his favorite motto.

Food? Sure. Maybe someday.

Take care, love,

S

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Date: Mon, Jul 31, 2000 at 06:45:58 (GMT)
From: Rob
Email: None
To: sam
Subject: LIKE us exes, who would like to know how the...
Message:
It only takes one to wave the red flag:)
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Date: Mon, Jul 31, 2000 at 19:10:26 (GMT)
From: Lawrence of Eurobia
Email: None
To: Rob
Subject: Getting the train to stop is another matter (nt)
Message:
sdfgdf
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Date: Mon, Jul 31, 2000 at 08:01:57 (GMT)
From: Salam
Email: None
To: Rob
Subject: Rob, you have done a lot of work on the church
Message:
bussiness. I have not followed exactly all your posts, including that of Jim and Joey, but my impression is that perphaps you should write a draft letter to the IRS and post it so it will be open to suggestions. What do you think?

Salam

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Date: Mon, Jul 31, 2000 at 23:12:21 (GMT)
From: Rob
Email: None
To: Salam
Subject: Rob, you have done a lot of work on the church
Message:
That is a good idea, Salam, however I think for maximum impact it would be better written by someone with a legal background and/or experience of dealing with the IRS. Also, I don't want to pre-empt any 'behind-the-scenes' efforts which might be under way:)
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Date: Tues, Aug 01, 2000 at 01:11:33 (GMT)
From: Salam
Email: None
To: Rob
Subject: I understand....nt
Message:
nt
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Date: Mon, Jul 31, 2000 at 04:08:09 (GMT)
From: cutting edge
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: I want my M-TV...and 24/7, please...
Message:
another little update from the corpulent one...

the visions people say that in the near future they want their broadcasts to be on the air 24 hours/day, 7 days/week...

can you imagine listening to that drivel?

they had a 'newsy' type broadcast today, in which the set looked like it came from the old 'The Jetsons' tv show.A number of people remarked on the similarity of the two sets...

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Date: Mon, Jul 31, 2000 at 06:01:12 (GMT)
From: SB
Email: None
To: cutting edge
Subject: The more brainwashed, the better
Message:
ZOMBIELAND!!

That is the only way a person can stay in the cult; listening to his crap constantly it seems to be something...we know it isn't. hahahaha....

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Date: Mon, Jul 31, 2000 at 01:25:42 (GMT)
From: cutting edge
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: 'auto knowledge for all!'
Message:
So, here's the latest from the large one.
Now, you can get the techniques,'Under close ,strict supervision' on your pc.
There will be numerous passwords, and if you don't get in within 3 tries,it won't work for you(for security reasons).

he's calling it 'auto-knowledge' (no kidding).

not sure yet if lotus feet will also appear on the screen that you can kiss,or if any dancing krishna like figure will appear...
(maybe for a slight fee extra)

Suggeston: Maybe we can take Drek's picture of m dancing with the pinnochio-premie having himself a good time, and charge new premies to see it...might pay for the upkeep of the site..

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Date: Mon, Jul 31, 2000 at 16:17:14 (GMT)
From: Joe
Email: None
To: cutting edge
Subject: Amazing....He appears scared shitless
Message:
Thanks for the info. We have been hearing for awhile that plans were in the works for people to receive knowledge via the internet, or a DVD or something equally impersonal.

Do you know what is meant by 'under close, strict supervision' means? Does it mean that there will be someone with the 'aspirant' when he or she views the 4 techniques over the computer? If not, how can Maharaji control whether other people aren't with the person who 'receives knowledge' who isn't appropriately indoctrinated, I mean 'ready?'

What if somebody doesn't have a computer? But then I suppose anyone who is too poor to have a computer, Maharaji isn't particularly interested in anyway, due to the low likelihood of large donations.

I think this is just another piece of proof that Maharaji is trying to retire more into the background due to the shit that ex-premies are disturbing. I think he wants to make his cult as below the radar as possible.

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Date: Mon, Jul 31, 2000 at 19:34:05 (GMT)
From: Joey
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: Amazing....He appears scared shitless
Message:
I think this is just another piece of proof that Maharaji is trying to retire more into the background due to the shit that ex-premies are disturbing. I think he wants to make his cult as below the radar as possible

I'm not so sure about that, Joe. He's already all over the net. Just do a search on Maharaji or Elan Vital on any engine.
Is that going 'as below the radar as possible?'

Again, from the premie I met last nite. Massive funds have been raised to bring about this transition to the satellite-web era of Phase 2.(totally consistent with the information that I've already submitted in a couple of posts...information from EV Canada's 'registered charity information returns' filed with Revenue Canada.)
Also as she put it, 'it will be easier for well-known people to receive knowledge ' and appreciate it in their own privacy, rather than be forced to spend time in the presence of a bunch of goofballs.
She seemed to be very happy about that and I found it revealing in this sense. The inference I drew and the conclusion I arrived at, is that the cult is actually hoping to lure some celebrities in order to use them for the fake 'authoritative' stamp of approval or 'social proof' they can provide that m and k are really cool.

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Date: Tues, Aug 01, 2000 at 00:06:22 (GMT)
From: Sir Dave
Email: None
To: Joey
Subject: The stronger the light - the clearer the shadow
Message:
and by that I mean; the more Maharaji & Co are thrown into the light of publicity, the more well known and pertinent we will become.

I don't think any celibrities would want to be associated with this cult with its history of hammer wielding madmen, child molesters and fake god, crowning it all.

Unfortunately for Maharaji, we will not go away.

And now, here's an advert:

See Not Maharaji's Mixed Bag for all ex-premie links. You know it makes sense!

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Date: Mon, Jul 31, 2000 at 20:23:46 (GMT)
From: Joe
Email: None
To: Joey
Subject: Amazing....He appears scared shitless
Message:
Now, Joey, I know your friend was enthusasitc, maybe even blissed out and all, but think about this for a minute. There are a few problems here.

I'm not so sure about that, Joe. He's already all over the net. Just do a search on Maharaji or Elan Vital on any engine.
Is that going 'as below the radar as possible?'

Well, yes, he is on the internet, but only in very controlled, restricted websites. But then, there are other people on the internet too, saying very different things. By 'below the radar' I mean Maharaji, personally, becomes even more of a recluse. And avoids any direct contact, or any kind of 'events' where people gather in any numbers and where others, like ex-premies, the press, etc., might show up and ask troubling questions.

Again, from the premie I met last nite. Massive funds have been raised to bring about this transition to the satellite-web era of Phase 2.(totally consistent with the information that I've already submitted in a couple of posts...information from EV Canada's 'registered charity information returns' filed with Revenue Canada.)
Also as she put it, 'it will be easier for well-known people to receive knowledge ' and appreciate it in their own privacy, rather than be forced to spend time in the presence of a bunch of goofballs.

This is just one of many 'phases' that have occurred the past concerning Mahararji. None of them has ever seemed to work. I have no doubt that money will be spent on equipment. That isn't new either. It seems Maharaji always has some project to use as an excuse to collect money. It has been planes, Millennium, tours and residences in the past, now it's also equipment. I would suspect that the equipment will be provided by premie companies, or companies with exclusive contracts such that EV and Maharaji will make money off of it. The 'spreading knowledge' bullshit is just that. An excuse for the money to flow.

Celebrities receiving knowledge? Maybe. But, again, Maharaji can't hide his past, and if people are on the Internet to read his crap or watch his videos, how long before they find ex-premie.org?

I don't think Maharaji wants celebrities. I think he would like rich but unknown people. Celebrities mean publicity and he doesn't want that. What happens if, say, Jerry Seinfeld receives knowledge? He might just get asked in the interview in People Magazine if he is aware that Maharaji used to claim to be god, has a mistress and drinks, and whether he has heard of ex-premie.org. No, publicity is death to Maharaji and his propogation efforts. He really needs to fly below the radar, because his past then catches up with him otherwise.

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Date: Mon, Jul 31, 2000 at 22:26:11 (GMT)
From: Joey
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: Amazing....He appears scared shitless
Message:
Now, Joey, I know your friend was enthusasitc, maybe even blissed out and all...

Are you kiddin? I mean her bliss would've put Pauline Premie to shame. Gimmee a break ! And really, this gal has a smile so delightful, she should really be doing Crest commercials and become a celebrity of her own :::))
But its not only her. I've seen other premies 2week ago going, or on their way from the hotel here in Montreal where they have their broadcasts. Man, what a bunch of happy campers !! I say these guys are pumped up. Pumped up with what is another story, but pumped nonetheless.

By 'below the radar' I mean Maharaji, personally, becomes even more of a recluse. And avoids any direct contact, or any kind of 'events' where people gather in any numbers and where others, like ex-premies, the press, etc., might show up and ask troubling questions.

Whaddya mean? He just did a summer tour here in N.A. I suspect he'll keep on doing events or else there will be nothing to broadcast, and no material to splice up and reformat in god knows how many other broadcasts, besides the 'rebroadcasts.'

It seems Maharaji always has some project to use as an excuse to collect money. It has been planes, Millennium, tours and residences in the past, now it's also equipment. I would suspect that the equipment will be provided by premie companies, or companies with exclusive contracts such that EV and Maharaji will make money off of it. The 'spreading knowledge' bullshit is just that. An excuse for the money to flow.

Can't disagree with what you're saying here.
Except I would like to point out, that while propagation or dissemination virtually ground to halt with the advent of ex-premie.org, the numbers are back on the rise from what I've seen, as the cult seems to have recovered from the initial shock of having to deal with an effective opposition and I have no doubt we'll see a further increase for 2000.

What happens if, say, Jerry Seinfeld receives knowledge? He might just get asked in the interview in People Magazine if he is aware that Maharaji used to claim to be god, has a mistress and drinks, and whether he has heard of ex-premie.org.

Well it'll be a PR battle, that's for sure, with ex-premies on the net painted as a bunch of disgruntled losers.
As SB said below, we'll have to work harder to get our message and the information across. Not only harder, but I would add, perhaps even more importantly, smarter as well.

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Date: Mon, Jul 31, 2000 at 22:33:51 (GMT)
From: Joey
Email: None
To: Joey
Subject: PS: RE Amazing....He appears scared shitless
Message:
with ex-premies on the net painted as a bunch of disgruntled losers.

this should read as:

'with an attempt to paint ex-premies on the net as a bunch of disgruntled losers.'

I don't mean to suggest that it's necessarily going to work.

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Date: Mon, Jul 31, 2000 at 19:59:16 (GMT)
From: cutting edge
Email: None
To: Joey
Subject: Amazing....He appears scared shitless
Message:
I think you are right, about trying to get new,more scoially respectable people in to the cult (remember, we weren't socially respectable, but he loves us anyway.It was agya to forget your social respectability back in the early days...)

an english guy, think his name was peter love, was saying recently that he had sent some of m's new written propaganda to some government officials and was very interested that they responded favorably to it. I wasn't sure if they were in california or the UK, but you could tell that he was very interested in getting some people with money and/or power interested...

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Date: Wed, Aug 02, 2000 at 17:05:20 (GMT)
From: Katie
Email: None
To: cutting edge
Subject: Flying in the grass
Message:
Hi c.e. -
(Title is a slang term for flying under radar.)

There was a premie where I used to work who was constantly bringing in Maharaji's 5-minute introductory videos and giving them to people. Everyone (except me, of course, although I did not let this guy know I was an ex) said that what Maharaji said was OK, or good, but that they weren't personally interested.

My point is that in those intro tapes, and no doubt in the written materials, Maharaji just says a bunch of kind of bland, positive, statements that could have been written by any of the new age gurus or popular psychologists around today. What's not to like, if you don't know anything more about the guy? And EV has apparently begun to represent 'knowledge' as another kind of 'workshop' - just like, as I said, one of the workshops by new age gurus or popular psychologists.

If EV and Maharaji make knowledge seem bland enough, then I have no doubt that more people will receive knowledge. I do have grave doubts, however, that these people will feel the proper 'gratitude' (read devotion) to the 'master', and will contribute tons and tons of money, or stick around for all that long. The people who appear to have contributed the most money over the years are the people who really believe that Maharaji is THE PERFECT MASTER, with whatever that entails. There are quite a few of them, and I can definitely believe that EV wants to keep these Phase I premies separated from the Phase II premies - thus the 'privacy of your own home' spiel. (Also, they should delete some of that devotional stuff off ELK!)

I wonder how the Phase I devotional premies feel about all this, honestly? I know some of them think it's just a part of Maharaji's 'plan' to give knowledge to the world, and that he is presenting it this way in order to make knowledge more socially acceptable so more people will receive it. My personal feeling is that some of these Phase I premies are going to get disillusioned - the ones who might have some doubt about this new and watered-down presentation of knowledge.

It will be interesting to see what happens, as always.

Take care,
Katie

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Date: Wed, Aug 02, 2000 at 18:28:07 (GMT)
From: Joey
Email: None
To: Katie
Subject: Flying in the grass
Message:
Katie, I agree with the general thrust in your post until you get to this point:

The people who appear to have contributed the most money over the years are the people who really believe that Maharaji is THE PERFECT MASTER, with whatever that entails. There are quite a few of them, and I can definitely believe that EV wants to keep these Phase I premies separated from the Phase II premies - thus the 'privacy of your own home' spiel...

That's really not the impression I get, and consider this.
First of all, it still has to be those Phase 1 premies inviting newcomers to broadcasts, or else how are newcomers going to find out about it? Even if they were to stumble upon m on the net, and their curiosity piqued to the point where they phone the info line or email for more info, they'll soon be directed to a contact person who most probably is a Phase 1 premie (until there are enough Phase 2 premies who have been sufficiently indoctrinated or assimilated into their new, cultic, premie-like identities.)
To illustrate my point, I was driving through the downtown core or as we prefer to call it here in Montreal-'centre-ville' :) a couple of Sundays ago, on my way home from an afternoon swim at the pool, and not far away from the hotel where the broadcasts are still being featured. I saw some old Phase 2 premies, faces I recognized, but what was most interesting, they were walking side by side with people whom I didn't recognise. New faces.
And whether they were old or new, they both seemed to be blissed out, either coming or going from the broadcast which is held on that day. Old faces and new faces together, both blissed out.

I wonder how the Phase I devotional premies feel about all this, honestly? I know some of them think it's just a part of Maharaji's 'plan' to give knowledge to the world, and that he is presenting it this way in order to make knowledge more socially acceptable so more people will receive it.

Yes that's exactly how they see it, and as I reported previously, the Phase 1 premies who are still left seem to me to be a bunch of happy campers. And meet them in person as I did when running into an old premie acqaintance at dinner the other evening, and they're pumped!
Whereas they saw the cult running into a wall around 1996-98, now they're beginning to see more new faces at their broadcasts and more people receiving knowledge as compared to the serious decline of the past few years.
The 'old way' wasn't working and no doubt the ex-premie presence on the net contributed to that.
With the 'new way', they see the possibility of m and k at least surviving if not flourishing, and they seem excited about that future.
Will they be disappointed ?
Finally, I return to a point of agreement with you.

It will be interesting to see what happens, as always.

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Date: Wed, Aug 02, 2000 at 19:50:21 (GMT)
From: Joey
Email: None
To: Joey
Subject: correction
Message:
To illustrate my point, I was driving through the downtown core or as we prefer to call it here in Montreal-'centre-ville' :) a couple of Sundays ago, on my way home from an afternoon swim at the pool, and not far away from the hotel where the broadcasts are still being featured. I saw some old Phase 2 premies, faces I recognized, but what was most interesting, they were walking side by side with people whom I didn't recognise. New faces.

'I saw some old Phase 2 premies...'

should read

'I saw some old Phase 1 premies..'

Phase 1, Phase 2...sheesh!

I feel like I'm phasing out!! :::)))

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Date: Mon, Jul 31, 2000 at 20:14:02 (GMT)
From: SB
Email: None
To: cutting edge
Subject: Amazing....He appears scared shitless
Message:
We need to rock the boat harder!
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Date: Mon, Jul 31, 2000 at 06:44:37 (GMT)
From: ham
Email: None
To: cutting edge
Subject: Excellent news, gm admits no juju needed
Message:
That is going to completely undermine the whole lila concept, which as we know is what keeps the last of the old timers going.
No juju needed, so it's just a bunch of techniques, then he's directly in competetion with other yoga teachers, and we know how crap he is and will be in that race.

The other good news is that he must be REALLY desperate to go down this route, becoming a TV/web fundamentalist, to risk alienating the grace crowd, when they are already wobbly, means almost for certain the greedy bastard hasn't done any planning and saved a few hundred million for the rainy days. He sure as hell has assumed the cash cow would continue to rain for ever, and that means he is seriously on the run, and when he's on the run he gets sloppy and makes even bigger mistakes.

I reckon he's almost flushed out in the open.

Thanks for that, big time, Cutting Edge, this and admitting he's a liar re Lord of the Universe and blaming all that on the premies means he's now got no cover left at all.

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Date: Mon, Jul 31, 2000 at 02:13:02 (GMT)
From: Sir Dave
Email: None
To: cutting edge
Subject: 'auto knowledge for all!'
Message:
No, no, no. This sacred knowledge of all knowledges can only be revealed by the touch of a fully realised soul. Knowledge by PC - say it ain't so.

I can put Maharaji in touch with a good company that will give him a worldwide premium rate telephone access web site. Then he can charge people directly from their own telephone bill for getting onto his site and receiving knowledge, getting darshan and expressing their gratitude.

But they don't have to fall for such cheap and nasty tricks as this, because they can get darshan right here on Maharaji's webcam completely free!

If you don't see Maharaji on this web cam, it's because your longing is not strong enough. Perhaps you need more participation with other people who are feeling that gratitude and perhaps you need to see more videos of the master to get that longing for that appreciation.

Shit man - this is fast becoming one hell of a farce!

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Date: Mon, Jul 31, 2000 at 04:38:57 (GMT)
From: Joey
Email: None
To: Sir Dave
Subject: 'auto knowledge for all!'
Message:
No, no, no. This sacred knowledge of all knowledges can only be revealed by the touch of a fully realised soul. Knowledge by PC - say it ain't so.

Sorry Sir Dave, but it IS so and 'auto knowlege' is already well on the way to become a reality, just as cutting edge described.

In fact I ran into an old premie friend at dinner tonite, who was more than glad to fill me in on all the details.

Apparently, a couple of weeks back, there was a k session in Montreal for approx 10 people who couldn't attend a major k session with m himself in Miami just a few weeks before that, where over 100 people attended.
So in his infinite mercy and compassion, Charananand was sent to Montreal with what she gleefully described as the 'auto knowledge video, and Maharaji does the entire knowledge session himself, just as if he were there in person !'

'Wow !' I said, trying to feign excitement and bewilderment at the same time. (Not an easy thing to do, but I think I managed :)
'Well, if Maharaji does it all on the video,' I asked, 'what was Charanand doing ?'
'He just pushed the buttons,' she replied, even more gleefully.
(At this point I remember thinking to myself rather sarcastically- you know had Jean Michel just hung in there long enough, he too could have lived to see the day where he'd be a button-pushing prick of an instructor. Alas, he ended up losing out on so much joy. Oh well :)
She then went on describe, not k sessions as I recall on your computer, but events or broadcasts with m that would come via the net, with a password system pretty much as described by cutting edge. I have no doubt that k-sessions will be done that way too eventually for those who want it. As a matter of fact, I believe m's goal is to deliver k to anyone who wants it, however they want it. And if you don't want or can't get away from your computer - no problem - that's where you'll get it.

A little footnote.
I remember when I was at the Malibu res in May 96 for the Amtext party. M was asked by someone, 'Maharaji, are you going to get a website ?'
'Meee??,' he exclaimed almost in protest. 'I HAVE a life !!'
And he went on to explain, 'Maybe in the year 3000, there will be some hologram that comes out of your computer and gives you knowledge. Maybe then, there will be a master who does it that way. But as long as I'm the one who's doing it, it will always have to be person to person. What comes after me, I don't know, but, that's the way it will always be with me.'

And I remember the collective feeling of pride in OUR Maharaji that we all felt in our hearts, that thank goodness OUR Maharaji had so much integrity, and was so faithful to his principles.
We were all so very fortunate.

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Date: Mon, Jul 31, 2000 at 17:07:11 (GMT)
From: Joe
Email: None
To: Joey
Subject: A Question.....
Message:
Joey, thanks for the info. Did your friend say whether, in this attempt to give knowledge to whomever wants it, that it was going to get EASIER to get knowledge?

Will people still have to go to those humiliating 'knowledge selections?' Will people still have to go to videos for months on end? How will it be determined if someone is 'ready,' or does Maharaji care, anymore, if anyone is 'ready.' After all, without the proper 'understanding' of Maharaji's role, they may not have much 'gratitude' to him for some simplistic meditation techniques that don't work very well for most people.

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Date: Mon, Jul 31, 2000 at 19:37:33 (GMT)
From: SB
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: Ready to be confused!!
Message:
How is he going to do it? The same way he has always DONE it: Litle by little he traps a person in his red of confussion and promises. The deceit begins when a person hears the reassurance he talks with about knowledge, as if it's something 'he has mastered' when in reality is only a cultish trap. First, a person BUYS that he knows something very important, the knowledge of all knowledges and crap, crap, crap... and want to learn about it. Then, this person begins to buy videos or listen to him by satellite, or go to his programas because he/she wants to learn 'this amazing' experience INSIDE THEMSELVES. Lard's tactic is about making a person confused but curious enough to make her/him spend their money investigating what KNOWLEDGE is. After all, the advertisement of the premies creates easily that curiosity that would take them 'into the path' of the cult. Same way in the old days we were encouraged to go to 'his festivales/programs', for what? To donate money to him!! I remember I paid $85 to get in the Miami Convention Center, never mind all the crap I bought there!!

People who want to have 'that' incredible experience are persueded by the many images around the cult and its promises; videos showing large groups of people, Master, knowledge of all knowledges, etc. What keeps a person hooked is the promise that there is something to be found when in reality, what is there to be found is just confussion and a confused premie ALWAYS need maharaji!

Isn't that what premies 'experience'? Longing; they are so lost, crazy and neddy, fighting internally with themselves! The price they pay for some 'happy' moments is extremely high. They end up dedicating their lives to investigate or find something that doesn't exists!

His dirty practices need to be reported because they need to stop; he incites people to look for something nowhere to be found.

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Date: Mon, Jul 31, 2000 at 18:42:11 (GMT)
From: Joey
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: best answer I can offer
Message:
Did your friend say whether, in this attempt to give knowledge to whomever wants it, that it was going to get EASIER to get knowledge?

Not in those in precise words, but it was the inference that I drew from what she had to say as described in my post above.

Will people still have to go to those humiliating 'knowledge selections?' Will people still have to go to videos for months on end?

We didn't get into that. What she DID tell me was that within 6 months the transition into Phase 2 will have been completed and there will be hardly any more local events at public venues. The video age as we know it will have come to a complete end, and people will be able to see the satellite broadcasts in the privacy of their own homes if they can afford the DISH or Bell Express View who's the carrier up here in Canada. If not, they'll be getting together in small groups at friends homes.
Also, broadcasts via the net.
The only local events at public venues will be for the odd 'special' occasion. What are those? I didn't even ask, just took it for granted that it meant the traditional 'information and inspiration' meetings (read fundraising) with out of town guests like Yoram Weiss, David Mankoff, Raja Ji etc..)
How will people be introduced to knowledge ? Again, I didn't ask, but what was revealing was when she told me that the phone number that appeared on the Elan Vital website (here in Canada: www.elanvital.ca) was for the general public and introductory events or broadcasts, and re-broadcasts. Once plugged into the system, another phone number is given.

How will it be determined if someone is 'ready,' or does Maharaji care, anymore, if anyone is 'ready.' After all, without the proper 'understanding' of Maharaji's role, they may not have much 'gratitude' to him for some simplistic meditation techniques that don't work very well for most people

Now Joe, if you keep that up, I have a feeling we'll soon witness an appearance by Pauline Premie, and you can bet your ass - she'll put you in your place !!
Be careful, man:::)))

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Date: Mon, Jul 31, 2000 at 06:33:10 (GMT)
From: Salam
Email: None
To: Joey
Subject: ''What was Charanand doing ?'
Message:
I just do not see why is it neccessary for Charanand to do that? Why go through all the expences just for that? Most likly he has aother rule, like maybe someone freaks out, or the transsmission gets cut off. Imagine beeing in the middle of the sound technique and the screen goes blanck, or still, how about a hacker breaking in and starting his own sermon?. Also what happened after the knowledge session, did charanand give satsang or did he wounder about thinking of his lost bride.
Joey I think you should go back to that premie you spoke with and get us more info.
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Date: Mon, Jul 31, 2000 at 18:58:52 (GMT)
From: Joey
Email: None
To: Salam
Subject: ''What was Charanand doing ?'
Message:
Salam,

I think what she was expressing is the typical premie pride in their master that it's really 'Maharaji doing it all.'

I did pry her a little on this point. I asked her, 'Surly, Charanand was there for more than just the button-pushing ?'
I also told her that I was aware of a new batch of instructors who spent time in training with m himself.
'Is this what the training is about?', I asked. 'How to push buttons?'
Finally she admitted that, 'you know, maybe someone has a question or something like that.'

Most likly he has aother rule, like maybe someone freaks out, or the transsmission gets cut off.

I agree with you Salam. But she didn't want to talk about things like that with me. In typical premie fashion, trying to impress someone who hasn't been around for a while, she just wanted to tell me how everything had changed for the better, and now things were just sooo 'positive,' as she put it.

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Date: Tues, Aug 01, 2000 at 13:00:23 (GMT)
From: Salam
Email: None
To: Joey
Subject: I guess cyberguruji is here to stay.
Message:
But how long will those cyber premies last. Maybe they should take stock of the hundred of premies that were close to gum ji for a decade or two and left him. I do not see how anyone can take such an important step trusting a tv? Sound like on of these Gloria Marshal loss weight things, try it for six months then go and try a different diet plan. I defenitly am interested in meeting some of those cyberpremies to see what is flying inside thier heads.
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Date: Mon, Jul 31, 2000 at 03:09:11 (GMT)
From: Salam
Email: None
To: Sir Dave
Subject: Whatever became of grace?
Message:
Secret Initiation

Even if an observer were to film and tape-record a session, he would still not have any record of the ex-perience being imparted. For the essence of a Knowledge session does not involve what is said, or even the demonstration of the four techniques of meditation. Rather, the initiation is a profound spiritual event in which an indefinable essence, or energy, is transferred between human {two} beings.

{p77, Who is Guru Maharaj Ji?}

What a wanker,

Salam

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Date: Mon, Jul 31, 2000 at 03:44:12 (GMT)
From: cutting edge
Email: None
To: Salam
Subject: Whatever became of grace?
Message:
It's really great that so many of these old materials are still around.
This quote will look great next to his 'auto knowledge'.
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Date: Sun, Jul 30, 2000 at 22:22:37 (GMT)
From: Mili
Email: mili@cheerful.com
To: Everyone
Subject: Anthony DeMello
Message:
I'm really impressed by this guy...

Anthony DeMello

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Date: Mon, Jul 31, 2000 at 20:26:18 (GMT)
From: Jerry
Email: None
To: Mili
Subject: Anthony DeMello
Message:
Who cares? I'll tell you what I'm impressed with - that you're still allowed to post here after you once fabricated signatures on a petition to have an ex-premie website shut down. That's what I'm impressed with.
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Date: Mon, Jul 31, 2000 at 19:15:31 (GMT)
From: cq
Email: None
To: Mili
Subject: I asked you a question about a month ago.
Message:
and I'd be really impressed if you could answer.

(it was about your claim about ex-premie.org website's quote 'lies' endquote.)

Thought I'd forgotten?

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Date: Mon, Jul 31, 2000 at 14:40:40 (GMT)
From: Nigel
Email: fitzroy@redcrow.demon.co.uk
To: Mili deSilly
Subject: Never mind that, Mili, how about your doubts?
Message:
Premies who post to the forum speak of their certainty but never their doubts. This is, above all, the single most telling factor for me. You have doubts, of course - serious ones at times - but you will never speak of them.

You doubt your experience and you doubt Mr Roly-Poly's divinity, but the dissonance arising when you dwell on these thoughts is too painful so you have no option but to shove them to the back of your consciousness and forget about them. Perhaps you pray to Maharaj Ji to take the doubts away; but they never do go away, do they? - and they never will. The chances are, for any still practising premie, that their last day on planet earth will not be spent merging with the light, but wrestling with those very same doubts, and asking themselves, too late, whether they have sold their prize cow for a handful of beans that never sprouted.

What about your doubts, Mili? Would you care to share a few with us. It might at least convince some people here that you are a rational, thinking human being. Never forget, Mili, that practically everybody who posts here used to practise 'knowledge' - many of us for years. We all had those same doubts, and we knew all the tricks to keep the doubts at bay. From your perspective we have probably all given in to them, lost the plot, wandered off into the Maya or something. And it was almost certainly the same doubts that you will never publicly admit to that eventually caused us to jump ship. I now treasure those doubts because they rescued me from something whose effects were personally harmful.

Maharaj Ji was always right about one thing, of course, and that is regarding the source of those doubts, namely the Mind. He teaches you to fear your mind; never to trust your mind; to get free of that 'crazy' mind. (And it is our minds -yours and mine - that M fears above all, since he knows that once the number of his followers using their minds to confront the difficult questions hits critical mass, the funding will dry up and the whole guru game will be over.)

Remember that Beatles song: 'There's a Place'?

The-e-e-e-re….
There's a place
Where I can go
When I feel low
When I feel blue
And it's my mind
And there's no time
When I'm alone...

That's pretty close to how I now feel about my mind. I love it! It is wonderful. And it is the product of the most incredible, complex thing in the known universe, ie., the human brain. And what a wonderful, stupendous piece of machinery to be born with - and what a pity that people have to creep through life in fear of their minds, rather than celebrating all the things they can, or could be doing with them.

Anyway, I digress. Let's get back to the doubts. I will try and crystalise a few of them here in the form of questions. I don't expect you to answer these on the forum (though it would be nice if a premie did just that for a change) but perhaps you could take them away with you and think about how you would answer these questions to yourself . I stress these last two words, since you will inevitably already have a whole bunch of standard answers that seem to work well enough when answering questions to other people. But kidding yourself is always that little bit harder than kidding others, I have found.

(1) Tears of Joy

Did you ever ask yourself whether those powerful emotional experiences were ever anything other than conditioned responses? 'Classical conditioning' is just about the most rock-solid phenomenon in the whole of psychology, and the whole DLM/EV
recruitment structure could not be better designed to capitalise on this very simple and natural learning process. The long aspirant period with the frequent combining of M's voice and image with whatever nice sensations you might, at times, be feeling is sufficient for half the task; for the other half it is the learning to associate your inner struggles, pain, freak-outs etc. with your mind. I'm sure you can see this sort of thing going on in other religious groups - maybe the Krishnas, the Moonies, the Jehovah's Wiitlesses or whoever - but do they see it like that? You betcha they don't. Because the nice feelings are real. They cannot be denied. What is unreal, however, is the carefully fabricated association (deliberately or otherwise) between those feelings and the object of their spiritual devotions.

(2) The Knowledge Techniques

We have evolved four primary senses (if you count taste and smell as being one and the same). Their functions are obvious, and all involve interpreting the external world. Did it never strike you as odd that each of the meditation techniques, rather than tapping into something cosmic, involves hijacking one of those senses and diverting it from its proper function to focus on 'inner', basically neutral experiences? For those that want them there are many ways of turning inwards and removing external stressors. You probably believe the 'knowledge' experience to be superior to all the others; the real thing, even.

But you don't know that, do you? How do you know your experience to be 'spiritual'? How do you even know it to be M's 'gift'?

(3) The Path

Why don't your meditation experiences become longer, richer or deeper with the passing of the years?

Why does nobody ever 'realise knowledge'?

(4) The All-powerful Master

Gail recently brought news from reliable sources to the effect that Maharaj Ji has finally started talking again about 'the Knowledge of all Knowledges' and himself as 'The All-Powerful Giver'. Many of Maharaj Ji's pronouncements over the years have been very ambiguous, or at least, premie revisionists have
managed to re-interpret them. As I see it, however, there is nothing ambiguous about the word 'all-powerful'.

Do you believe your guru to be 'all-powerful'?

Would you agree that if somebody who is not all-powerful claimed to be all-powerful, then that would be a pretty serious misrepresentation of oneself?

On the other hand, If Maharaj Ji is all-powerful, how come he seemed to be so powerless in the face of his wife's serious illness, and powerless to anticipate his mother's death?
Why is the all-powerful one completely ignorant of what is supposed to happen when we die? (as he admits on a current introductory video) Why was he powerless to prevent so many premies ending up in long-term psychiatric care or taking their own lives? Why is he so powerless to resist all the usual worldly desires that mess up the lives of ordinary powerless people? Why so much alcohol? Why the drug-taking? Why the mistresses? Why does he look so ill, nowadays? Why do ex-premies outnumber premies by 9 to 1? Why the grotesque display of wealth? Why does the all-powerful 'giver' take so much? Why is the flow of cash strictly one-way? What evidence do we have for this power, other than M's boastful assertions..?

Could it be that you and others like you, are in reality all the power he has?

I have never found the answers to any of these questions 'inside of me' and neither have you. They deserve answers, all the same.

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Date: Mon, Jul 31, 2000 at 12:42:43 (GMT)
From: Nigel da Mellow
Email: fitzroy@liverpool.ac.uk
To: Mili
Subject: Anthony DeMello
Message:
Those who know do not say;
Those who say do not know.

Seem to me that the would-be Zen-men who like to use this quote always have a LOT to say for themselves, but know very little.

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Date: Mon, Jul 31, 2000 at 04:03:54 (GMT)
From: SB
Email: None
To: Mili
Subject: Lets talk about Elan Vital Mili
Message:
So, according to www.elanvital.org maharaji is somebody very different than what premies think, do you agree?

Do you think that is irrelevant how maharaji changed his story?

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Date: Mon, Jul 31, 2000 at 06:50:19 (GMT)
From: Salam
Email: None
To: SB
Subject: He never said he was God
Message:
From {p84, Who is Guru Maharaji?} bracket are mine.

'Do you regard yourself as God or the Son of God?

This is the question I always get on television and on all the news programs, “Why do people say you are God?” And I say, “I don’t say I am Cod. People see something in me and they think I am God.” Right?

{wroung}

What He decides, He can do. There are no laws for Him. There are no regulations for Him. There is no limit for Him. He is Perfect{me ofcourse}. No laws can put Him into limitations. He is not bound by laws. He {i mean me}has made certain laws for humanity, but not for Himself.

So there. If I want to shaft you that is my own bussiness, do not ask any question and just turn around, because by his grace you will enjoy it and it won't hurt, and even if it did hurt, it is just a lila anyway.

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Date: Sun, Jul 30, 2000 at 22:46:23 (GMT)
From: hamzen
Email: None
To: Mili
Subject: Wish I could say the same about you
Message:
Same old wank Mili, why don't you piss off back to your ghetto
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Date: Mon, Jul 31, 2000 at 00:18:36 (GMT)
From: P-man
Email: None
To: hamzen
Subject: Get lost, Mili (nt)
Message:
nt
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Date: Sat, Jul 29, 2000 at 23:34:59 (GMT)
From: Rob
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: 'Is this a Church I see before me?'
Message:
Taking time out from my personal woes to do a little research. Here's my offering, sorry it's lengthy but worth a look IMHO.

http://www.irs.ustreas.gov/prod/bus_info/tax_pro/irm-part/part07/36015a.html#ss2
Handbook 7.8.3
Private Foundations Handbook

[emphases my own]

[7.8.3] 2.2.4 (03-30-1999)
Definition of a 'Church' --Administrative Guidance

[7.8.3] 2.2.1 (03-30-1999)
Relationship of IRC 170(b)(1)(A)(i) to IRC 501(c)(3)--Religious Purposes
Churches are a subset of 501(c)(3) organizations organized and operated for religious purposes. See, e.g., De La Salle Institute v. United States , 195 F.Supp. 891 (N.D. Cal. 1961); Chapman v. Commissioner , 43 T.C. 358, 363 (1967).

[7.8.3] 2.2.2 (03-30-1999)
Churches are not exempt from the substantive requirements for exemption under IRC 501(c)(3)--an organization's religious beliefs or practices cannot serve as an excuse.
Thus, a church's organizing document must comply with the organizational test. [EV's Articles of Incorporation?]

[7.8.3] 2.2.4 (03-30-1999)
Definition of a 'Church' --Administrative Guidance
The current regulations under IRC 170 do not define a 'church.'

An organization qualifies as a church only if its principal purpose or function is that of a church. See Rev. Rul. 56-262, 1956-1 C.B. 131.

Of course, to determine whether certain purposes or functions are those of a church, one must know what a church is.

The Service considers all the facts and circumstances in determining whether an organization is a church, including whether the organization has the following characteristics:

a distinct legal existence
a recognized creed and form of worship
a definite and distinct ecclesiastical government
a formal code of doctrine and discipline
a distinct religious history
a membership not associated with any other church or denomination
a complete organization of ordained ministers ministering to their congregations
ordained ministers selected after completing prescribed courses of study
a literature of its own
established places of worship
regular congregations
regular religious services
Sunday schools for religious instruction of the young
schools for the preparation of its ministers

The above list of 14 church characteristics (first published by the Service in 1978 as a news release, IR-1930) is not exclusive--any other facts and circumstances that may bear upon the organization's claim for church status must also be considered.
An organization need not have all of the characteristics (few churches do, and newly-created churches cannot be expected to); thus, no single characteristic is controlling.
Some of the characteristics may be given more weight than others in a given case.

[7.8.3] 2.2.5 (03-30-1999)
Definition of a 'Church' --Judicial Guidelines
Court opinions provide most of the guidance on the meaning of 'church.'

The courts have generally supported the principle of Rev. Rul. 56-262 that 'the tail cannot be permitted to wag the dog' (as the court put it in De La Salle Institute , 195 F.Supp. at 901).

[These following were found NOT to be churches - rob]

De La Salle Institute (corporation organized under the auspices of the Roman Catholic Church, whose members were the members of a religious order, and that operated (1) a novitiate that trained men for the order, (2) Catholic schools for youth, (3) homes for the members of the order, and (4) a winery and distillery, in addition to chapels at the schools and novitiate, was not a church)

Tennessee Baptist Children's Homes. Inc. v. United States , 604 F.Supp. 210 (M.D.Tenn. 1984), affirmed, 790 F.2d 534 (6th Cir. 1986) (separately-organized child care facility of Tennessee Baptist Convention was not a church--the court noted that an organization is not a church for tax purposes if its own members do not consider it to be a church)

Lack of a recognized creed or exclusive membership were deemed significant in Chapman v. Commissioner , 48 T.C. 358 (1967), which held that an organization of dentist missionaries formed to spread the Gospel and improve dental care in foreign countries was not a church, where the organization was not affiliated with any church, drew its members from various Christian denominations, and did not attempt to promote membership in any particular Christian denomination.
The court reasoned that Congress used the term 'church' in the sense of a denomination or sect rather than the generic or universal sense.
Judge Tannenwald's influential concurring opinion reasoned that the organization was not a church, due not to its failure to ascribe to a particular denomination of Christianity, but rather to its failure to bring people together as the principal means of accomplishing its religious purpose--the dentist missionaries operated largely on an individual basis, although they held some religious services.

Courts have frequently applied the 14 criteria in determining whether an organization is a church, the first being American Guidance Foundation, Inc. v. United States , 490 F. Supp. 304 (D.D.C. 1980), affirmed in unpublished opinion (D.C. Cir. 1981), which noted that while some of the 14 criteria are relatively minor, others (e.g., the existence of an established congregation served by an organized ministry, the provision of regular religious services and religious education for the young, and the dissemination of a doctrinal code) are of central importance.

The court reasoned that, at a minimum, a church includes a body of believers that assembles regularly to worship and that is reasonably available to the public in its conduct of worship, educational instruction, and promulgation of doctrine.
The court also noted that superficially responsive documentation for each of the 14 church characteristics is not sufficient to establish church status.
The court held that a 501(c)(3) religious organization composed of a few family members who attended worship services at a relative's apartment and that made no real effort to extend its membership beyond the family was not a church.

Universal Bible Church. Inc. v. Commissioner , T.C.M. 1986-170 (organization was not a church where it failed to establish a distinct religious history, a membership beyond the trustees (2-50 people attended services, held in the homes of the trustees), or religious instruction for children, and its primary means for promoting its beliefs was to be through radio, t.v. and other media)

First Church of In Theo v. Commissioner , T.C.M. 1989-16 (organization was not a church where its principal activity was publishing religious literature and it had no plans for membership (although it conducted some religious services), no formal creed (other than the Bible and a belief that God dwells in all people), no sacerdotal functions, no membership unassociated with other churches, no regular congregations or services, no established place of worship, no organized ministry for ministering to congregations, and no youth instruction)

Spiritual Outreach Society v. Commissioner , 927 F.2d 335 (8th Cir. 1991) (organization that held bimonthly outdoor gospel music events and retreats with people of different religions for purposes of meditation and study was not a church where it had no established congregation of members who claimed the organization as their church, no organization of ministers other than guest ministers from other churches, and no religious education of the young)

VIA v. Commissioner , T.C.M. 1994-349 (organization formed to promote the 'wellness' and spiritual growth of its members through use of the latest discoveries in exercise, nutrition, and stress management and that held meetings at the members' houses (which involved group meditation, exchange of information on wellness, monitoring of the members' physical fitness, and designing of individual wellness programs), trained mentors to conduct such activities, published a newsletter sold at grocery stores, sold a nutritional food supplement, and planned to broadcast a wellness news program was held not a church--the court reasoned that the organization did not have any of the 14 church characteristics other than a distinct legal existence and literature of its own, and that its meetings, even if viewed as a form of worship, were incidental to its other activities)

The bottom line is, EV would not stand up as a church if properly challenged, and that being the case, would be classified probably as a Private Foundation (Tax Reform Act of 1969) and liable for all sorts of embarrassing restrictions and disclosures.

More to follow.

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Date: Mon, Jul 31, 2000 at 18:08:09 (GMT)
From: cq
Email: None
To: Rob
Subject: 'The dagger before my hand? - I have thee not ...
Message:
... and yet I see thee still'

Not related to MacBeth are you, Rob? ;)

Thanks a million for sharing this stuff with the rest of us.

It'll take me a while to read it all, but in the meantime, I'd like to raise the question of how best to present the request for reviewing EV's status.

Are the legal folk who post here the best ones for the job. Or should each and every one of us (who care to) submit their own letters/emails to the IRS?

What do you think?

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Date: Tues, Aug 01, 2000 at 00:18:19 (GMT)
From: Rob
Email: None
To: cq
Subject: 'Those he commands move only in command,
Message:
nothing in Love; Now does he feel his title
Hang loose about him, like a giant's robe
Upon a dwarfish thief.'

Macbeth V,ii,19

IMHO, we needs us a good lawyer or tax professional. A flurry of letters to the IRS could be mistakenly viewed as a harassment campaign, for which there are restricting provisions made in the code. We are simply of a common mind that this so-called 'church' is nothing of the kind, and is merely trying to avoid exposure of its dubious financial affairs.

I hope someone is collating all this information (JM, maybe?) as I am pressing on and delving further.

My next area of interest is the implication of EV's relationship with all its 'approximately 50 independent Elan Vitals in different countries around the world' (sic; EV website Press Kit). You may have noted that its Affiliation Code was listed as '3 - Independent - This code is used if the organization is an independent organization or an independent auxiliary (i.e., not affiliated with a National, Regional, or Geographic grouping of organizations)'.. Well I'm sure there are all kinds of possibilities for 'creative accounting' given their admitted international relationships.

You know, we may make '60 Minutes' after all!!

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Date: Wed, Aug 02, 2000 at 18:13:49 (GMT)
From: cq
Email: None
To: Rob
Subject: all our yesterdays have lighted fools ...
Message:
Just LOVED doing MacB as a kid. Indulge me while I cobble together some lines from a real master:



... plead like angels, trumpet-tongued, against
The deep damnation of his taking-off;
And pity, like a naked new-born babe,
Striding the blast, or heaven's cherubim, horsed
Upon the sightless couriers of the air,
Shall blow the horrid deed in every eye,
That tears shall drown the wind.


We have scotch'd the snake, not kill'd it.


Lay on, Macduff,
And damn'd be him that first cries, 'Hold, enough!'



When the battle 's lost and won ...


Fair is foul, and foul is fair ...




The earth hath bubbles as the water has,
And these are of them


The insane root
That takes the reason prisoner.


Yet do I fear thy nature;
It is too full o' the milk of human kindness.


To beguile the time,
Look like the time; bear welcome in your eye,
Your hand, your tongue: look like the innocent flower,
But be the serpent under 't.


this blow
Might be the be-all and the end-all here,


I have bought
Golden opinions from all sorts of people.


Letting 'I dare not' wait upon 'I would,'
Like the poor cat i' the adage.

(the adage in question being:
'The cat would eat fish, but would not wet her paw')


Bloody instructions, which being taught, return
To plague the inventor


There 's husbandry in heaven;
Their candles are all out.


'T is the eye of childhood
That fears a painted devil.


Who can be wise, amazed, temperate and furious,
Loyal and neutral, in a moment?



There 's daggers in men's smiles.


Mur: We are men, my liege.
Mac: Ay, in the catalogue ye go for men.


I am one, my liege,
Whom the vile blows and buffets of the world
Have so incensed that I am reckless what
I do to spite the world.


Be innocent of the knowledge, dearest chuck,
Till thou applaud the deed.



By the pricking of my thumbs,
Something wicked this way comes.
Open, locks,
Whoever knocks!


But now I am cabin'd, cribb'd, confined, bound in
To saucy doubts and fears.


How now, you secret, black, and midnight hags!


Hence, horrible shadow!
Unreal mockery, hence!


Stand not upon the order of your going,
But go at once.


Returning were as tedious as go o'er.


Angels are bright still, though the brightest fell.



Pour the sweet milk of concord into hell,
Uproar the universal peace, confound
All unity on earth.


Stands Scotland where it did?


Fie, my lord, fie! a soldier, and afeard?


All the perfumes of Arabia will not sweeten this little hand.


she is troubled with thick-coming fancies,
That keep her from her rest.

Macb. Cure her of that.
Canst thou not minister to a mind diseas'd,
Pluck from the memory a rooted sorrow,
Raze out the written troubles of the brain,
And with some sweet oblivious antidote
Cleanse the stuff'd bosom of that perilous stuff
Which weighs upon the heart?
Doct. Therein the patient
Must minister to himself.
Macb. Throw physic to the dogs: I 'll none of it


To-morrow, and to-morrow, and to-morrow,
Creeps in this petty pace from day to day
To the last syllable of recorded time,
And all our yesterdays have lighted fools
The way to dusty death. Out, out, brief candle!
Life 's but a walking shadow, a poor player
That struts and frets his hour upon the stage
And then is heard no more: it is a tale
Told by an idiot, full of sound and fury,
Signifying nothing.



I gin to be aweary of the sun.


And be these juggling fiends no more believ'd,
That palter with us in a double sense:
That keep the word of promise to our ear
And break it to our hope.


Live to be the show and gaze o' the time.



Nothing in his life
Became him like the leaving it; he died
As one that had been studied in his death
To throw away the dearest thing he owed,
As 't were a careless trifle.


................................................

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Date: Sun, Jul 30, 2000 at 01:36:03 (GMT)
From: Rob
Email: None
To: Rob
Subject: 'Our purpose is to help Maharaji in his work' - EV
Message:
http://www.irs.ustreas.gov/prod/bus_info/tax_pro/irm-part/part07/36070a.html#ss47


[7.8.2] 3.6.2 (02-23-1999)
Compliance with Statutory Requirements
Any religious organization, including a church, must satisfy the statutory requirements to be exempt under IRC 501(c)(3). As explained by the court in Christian Echos National Ministry. Inc. v. United States , 470 F.2d 849 (10th Cir. 1972), cert . den ., 414 U.S. 864 (1973)

Exemption from state or local taxation is neither conclusive nor relevant to the determination whether an organization is operated exclusively for religious purposes under federal tax law. Universal Life Church v. U.S. , 721 USTC 9467 (E.D. Cal. 1972).

[7.8.2] 3.4.2 (02-23-1999)
Public v. Private Purposes
Reg. 1.501(c)(3)-1(d)(l)(ii) provide that to meet the operational test, an organization must be engaged in activities furthering 'public' purposes rather than private interests. It must not be operated for the benefit of designated individuals or the persons who created it.

[Could it be argued that helping to fulfil M's. 'purpose' in spreading K. to the world is a 'private' rather than 'public' interest? Hmm.]

Numerous court cases have held that, in situations similar to that described in Rev. Rul. 81-94, an organization that serves the private interests of a designated individual rather than a public interest does not qualify for exemption under IRC 501(c)(3). See , for example, Basic Bible Church v. Commissioner , 74 T.C. 846 (1980); Church of the Transfiguring Spirit, Inc. v. Commissioner , 76 T.C. 1 (1981); People of God Community v. Commissioner , 75 T.C. 127 (1980); The Southern Church of Universal Brotherhood Assembled, Inc. v. Commissioner , 74 T.C. 1223 (1980); Bubbling Well Church of Universal Love v. Commissioner , 74 T.C. 531 (1980); and Unitary Mission Church of Long Island v. Commissioner , 74 T.C. 507 (1980); aff'd , 647 F. 2d 163 (2d Cir. 1981).

[Next: did EV include ashrams as part of its 'charitable status'?]

In Beth-El Ministries. Inc. v. United States , 79-2 USTC S9412, an organization whose members donated all their possessions and, if employed outside the organization, their salaries, to the organization, and which provided its members benefits in the form of food, clothing, shelter, medical care, recreational facilities, and educational services, was held not to be exempt as a religious organization. The court concluded that private benefits inured to the organization's members because the organization paid their living expenses.

If anyone has any questions or concerns so far, here is where to send them:


http://ftp.fedworld.gov/pub/irs-soi/eobk99.doc

EXEMPT ORGANIZATION INFORMATION AVAILABLE THROUGH THE STATISTICS OF INCOME(SOI) 'TAX STATS' INTERNET WEB SITE

INTRODUCTION

This document provides information to organizations and individuals who desire information on exempt organizations from the Internal Revenue Service's Business Master File (BMF) through the SOI 'Tax Stats' Internet Web Site. If you have any questions about the tax exempt organizations, the data fields, or the contents of the file, please contact Betty Crawford, Fields Systems Branch, OP:E:FS, at (202) 622-8001.

More to come.

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Date: Sun, Jul 30, 2000 at 02:39:54 (GMT)
From: G
Email: None
To: Rob
Subject: or do I see an Educational Organization?
Message:
Elan Vital listed '059' (Other school related activities) as their first activity code in their application to the IRS for exempt status. The second one was '001' (Church, synagogue, etc).

Now consider the following from Handbook 7.8.3 - Private Foundations Handbook [emphases mine]

[7.8.3] 2.3  (03-30-1999)
IRC 170 (b)(1)(A)(ii) Exclusion--Educational Organizations


  1. Educational organizations described in IRC 170(b)(1)(A)(ii) and Reg. 1.170A-9(b)(1), such as primary schools and universities, are excluded from private foundation status under IRC 509(a)(1).

  2. 170(b)(1)(A)(ii) organizations are commonly known as 'schools.'

  3. A 170(b)(1)(A)(ii) organization must:

    1. present formal instruction as its primary function,

    2. normally maintain a regular faculty and curriculum, and

    3. normally have a regularly enrolled body of pupils or students in attendance at the place where its educational activities are regularly carried on

    No, I don't think Elan Vital makes the grade.
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Date: Sun, Jul 30, 2000 at 05:06:49 (GMT)
From: Rob
Email: None
To: G
Subject: or do I see an Educational Organization?
Message:
Actually G that's almost irrelevant, as the important field is the 'Foundation Code', in which it is listed as '10 - Church'

See my later post on this.

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Date: Sun, Jul 30, 2000 at 16:29:38 (GMT)
From: G
Email: None
To: Rob
Subject: True
Message:
That's true, but might as well cover all the bases.
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Date: Sun, Jul 30, 2000 at 02:57:01 (GMT)
From: Rob
Email: None
To: G
Subject: One big happy family
Message:
There are more discrepancies in the listings:

AFFILIATION CODE

Affiliation Code defines the organizational grouping

3 Independent - This code is used if the organization is an independent organization or an independent auxiliary (i.e., not affiliated with a National, Regional, or Geographic grouping of organizations).

Oh but look at their own website:-


Elan Vital, incorporated in 1971 in the US, is a charitable organization that sponsors events and conferences throughout the US at which Maharaji is invited to speak.

Elan Vital cooperates with organizations which have similar objectives in more than 45 countries around the world.

A number of organizations around the world with objectives similar to Elan Vital are developing their own websites. We will provide links to these sites as they go online.

http://www.elanvital.org.uk Elan Vital UK
http://www.elanvital.org.za/ Foundation Elan Vital South Africa
http://www.primeacademy.com.my/ Prime Academy Malasia Berhad
http://www.elanvital.com.au/ Elan Vital Australia
http://www.elanvital.ie/Home.asp Elan Vital in Ireland
http://www.elanvital.it/ Elan Vital Italia
http://www.fundacionelanvital.es/ Fundacion Elan Vital
http://www.elanvital.ca/ Elan Vital Canada
http://www.elanvital.org.ar/ Elan Vital Argentina
http://www.elanvital.edu.uy/ Elan Vital Uruguay
http://www.elanvital.org.ve/ Elan Vital Venezuala

Time to review their status?

Anyone feel like dropping the dime? Jim, you speak the legal lingo, any thoughts?

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Date: Sun, Jul 30, 2000 at 03:24:59 (GMT)
From: G
Email: None
To: Rob
Subject: A question, notes
Message:
Question:

Are there additional requirements for:

1. A Classification Code of 1 (Charitable Organization)
2. A Deductibility Code of 1 (Contributions are deductible)

Notes:

Activity code '059' ('Other school related activities') is classified under 'Schools, Colleges and Related Activities'

District of Jurisdiction code of '95' means that the IRS District Office having jurisdiction is Los Angeles CA.

See http://ftp.fedworld.gov/pub/irs-soi/eobk99.txt for a description of the file, its layout, and the codes. BTW, the file eo_ca.exe, from which the info was extracted, is a HUGE compressed file. When uncompressed (about 34 megbytes), it requires adequate software to view it. I used Quick View Plus, searched on 'ELAN VITAL', and used the layout description in eobk99.txt to interpret it.

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Date: Sun, Jul 30, 2000 at 03:34:06 (GMT)
From: G
Email: None
To: all
Subject: Does EV comply with its exemption???
Message:
A further note regarding EV's tax-exempt status:

From eobk99.txt: (emphasis mine)

'The records are extracted from the BMF where exemption data has been accumulated from the inception of the tax exempt statutes. Determination letters are issued to organizations upon the granting of an exemption, and are not routinely re-issued. These letters are considered valid throughout the life of the organization, as long as the organization complies with the provisions of its exemption.'

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Date: Sun, Jul 30, 2000 at 05:04:23 (GMT)
From: Rob
Email: None
To: G
Subject: Does EV comply with its exemption???
Message:
To me it seems pretty clear that it doesn't and never did, but I guess that would have to be determined by the IRS EO Inspectors, should this ever be presented to them.

The key issue is that they ought IMO to be designated a Private Foundation at the very least, which brings with it extensive requirements for disclosure and revenue filing. They claim to be a Church in the BM field titled 'Foundation Code (10)', but if you read the examples in my first post, some organizations which would appear to the layman to definately be churches, were ruled against by the IRS. This leads to another section I read:


7.8.2] 3.6.3 (02-23-1999)
Burden of Proof

As noted by the court in Church of Spiritual Technology v. United States , 26 Cl. Ct. 713 (1992), which upheld denial of an organization's application for recognition of exemption, in demonstrating their entitlement to exemption, churches and other religious organizations are subject to the same burden of proof requirements as other organizations.

The court in Church of Spiritual Technology cited a long line of authority holding that the applicant bears the burden of showing it is entitled to exemption. In Harding Hospital, Inc. v. United States , 505 F.2d 1068, 1071 (6th Cir. 1974), the court stated that '[i]ncome tax exemption must be strictly construed, with any doubts to be resolved in favor of the taxing entity. Consequently, determinations of the Commissioner are presumed correct.'

Similarly, the court cited Welch v. Helvering , 190 U.S. 111, 115 (1933), and modern cases following its stricture that '[P]laintiff thus bears the burden of proving its entitlement to an exemption.'See also , Bubbling Well Church of Universal Love, Inc. v. Commissioner , 670 F.2d 104, 106 (9th Cir. 1981); Freedom Church of Revelation v. United States , 588 F. Supp. 693, 696 (D.D.C. 1984).

[don't ya love that name 'Bubbling Well Church of Universal Love':)]

The questions are:

Did Elan Vital qualify for exemption status when filed in 1971, and specifically was it justified in claiming Foundation Code 10 (Church) status, thus obviating the need to file Form 990's and excluding it from Private Foundation status?

If so, what paperwork was submitted and how accurate was it? (cf)

Are there sufficient grounds to warrant the IRS reviewing EV's status at this time? (Remember, burden of proof is on them (EV), also read the stuff on Deliquency in the same manual)

If their exemption were revoked, would they be liable for back taxes and penalties dating to the time of original filing, or a later year in which a change in the law rendered their status invalid?

Stick that in your FAQ's and smoke 'em!

Re: Their original filing:


[7.8.2] 49.3 (02-23-1999)
Publicity of Information Required From Certain Exempt Organizations and Certain Trusts

IRC 6104 governs the public disclosure by the IRS of most of the information required from exempt organizations including:

exemption applications,
any papers submitted in support of an exemption application,
any letter or other document issued by the Service with respect to an application for recognition of exemption, and
annual information returns.

IRC 6104(a)(1) makes available to the public upon request the approved exemption application, supporting documents, and Service letters or documents issued with respect to the approved application, of any organization recognized as exempt under IRC 501(c) or (d).

This information is available for any taxable year the organization is or was recognized as exempt beginning after October 31, 1976. Prior to that date, the effective date of 90 Stat. 1667 amending IRC 6104(a)(1)(A), only approved exemption applications and supporting documents were available for public inspection.

In light of the general availability of approved applications and supporting documents, IRC 6104(a)(1) also empowers the Service to disclose the subsection and paragraph of IRC 501 under which an organization has been determined to qualify for exemption, and to state whether an organization is currently recognized as exempt. IRC 6104(a) information may be released only after an organization's exemption application has been approved and it is available for public inspection. For a discussion of how this IRC 6104(a) information is disclosed, see Disclosure of Official Information Handbook, IRM 1.3.

7.10.1.3.1 (04/01/99)
Public Inspection of EO Documents
When a taxpayer requests copies of or asks to inspect exempt organization documents, EO specialists may assist them in preparing Form 4506-A, Request for Public Inspection Copy of Exempt Organization Document, and in forwarding these forms to the Ogden Service Center.

Sorry to take up all this space, but I think this is important information.

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Date: Sun, Jul 30, 2000 at 05:43:16 (GMT)
From: SB
Email: None
To: Rob
Subject: Very important Rob, thanks! (nt)
Message:
nt
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Date: Sun, Jul 30, 2000 at 06:08:15 (GMT)
From: G
Email: None
To: SB
Subject: Publicity of Exempt Organizations' Information
Message:
Here are links to (on the IRS web site):

Part 7 Employee Plans and Exempt Organizations

Publicity of Exempt Organizations' Information

Form 4506A Request for Public Inspection Copy of Exempt Organization Document. (This requires Adobe Acrobat Reader or other software such as a browser plug-in that can read a PDF file.)

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Date: Sun, Jul 30, 2000 at 01:43:10 (GMT)
From: Zelda
Email: None
To: Rob
Subject: 'Our purpose is to help Maharaji in his work' - EV
Message:
Seems like we could also use a legal definition of 'cult'or 'zealot group' to contrast.

dont mean to interrupt

nice to see you up for air

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Date: Sat, Jul 29, 2000 at 21:16:55 (GMT)
From: Zelda
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: Has anyone heard from Robyn? OT
Message:
Robyn are you sipping lemonade under the moony stars on the balcony of cedar?
email me OK?
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Date: Sat, Jul 29, 2000 at 22:31:41 (GMT)
From: buzz
Email: None
To: Zelda
Subject: Has anyone heard from Robyn? OT
Message:
zelda
would that be robyn{uk}?
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Date: Sat, Jul 29, 2000 at 22:09:11 (GMT)
From: ham
Email: None
To: Zelda
Subject: See under Porky's Bed technique, she's surfaced,
Message:
and finally stopped driving, and put her broom down!
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Date: Sun, Jul 30, 2000 at 01:16:45 (GMT)
From: Zelda
Email: None
To: ham
Subject: Buzz- No, the Other one + thanks ham NT
Message:
NT
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Date: Mon, Jul 31, 2000 at 16:35:05 (GMT)
From: Robyn
Email: None
To: Zelda
Subject: Buzz- No, the Other one + thanks ham NT
Message:
Dear Zelda, hammy and buzz,
Buzz, I'm from the US. Don't know you at all but hi. :)
Zelda, ham was writing about me, I so rarely get to even see this page, am just here now to show one of my student workers Brian's handy work with Pearl, his son is teaching himself the programing language and I wanted him to see what can be done with it.
Email is very limited for me now but I think we'll be getting a phone indoors in August and then the internet in Sept or so. I still have an email from you from forever ago. :(
This morning I printed out a ton of emails to work on replies to at home and then mail or just type in my replies. We'll see how well that goes!
Nice to see you wondering about me though Zelda, thanks. Things are ok, some good, some bad like life for anyone but I love the hotel and where it is and am enjoying the hell out of that. Finally have a refrigerator, VERY small but a step up from a cooler for sure!
The drive to work sucks big time and just today I was offered a paid position as aerobic instructor, I've been a substitue for awhile so that was great but is also here. I am a gemini and really living a double life, spread out across 3 counties! Feels great in a way, like I'm 18 again and then also like I am goffing off and need to grow up and get my life together.
Love,
Robyn
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Date: Tues, Aug 01, 2000 at 02:04:35 (GMT)
From: VP
Email: None
To: Robyn
Subject: Hi Robyn
Message:
I tried to send you an e-mail tonight, but it got returned to sender. Hope all is well with you. Did you take the aerobic instructor position?
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Date: Wed, Aug 02, 2000 at 18:49:10 (GMT)
From: Robyn
Email: None
To: VP
Subject: Hi Robyn
Message:
Sorry I missed that email Veep!
Just a glitch as my account is far from full, I about emptied it when I knew I'd be 'out of the email loop'. If you have it saved try sending it again.
Yes, I will be getting PAID to teach 2 or 4 aerobics classes in the fall, not many hours but just the fact that she asked me means she thinks I am good, she is very good and wanted someone who would be energetic and make the work out the same. Also was told today that the present contract I work under that is always in danger of ending was extended through the year 2001! I will have to check on this myself but if it is so and these other things come through I could be 3/4 time in the fall and would be able to rent a place HERE and could be full time by January! I love the hotel but it is TOO far from work and would love to live close by and am sure I could still visit the hotel.
God I miss everyone. I am working overnight tonight actually and plan on catching up on some email this evening for a break so I'll write you then, and Zelda! :)
Love to all who read this,
Robyn
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Date: Mon, Jul 31, 2000 at 16:38:20 (GMT)
From: Robyn
Email: None
To: Robyn
Subject: Buzz- No, the Other one + thanks ham NT
Message:
Sorry, just reread your subject title and see you didn't think ham was writing about 'the other Robyn'.
Does she use a 'y'? Most don't.
Love,
me
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Date: Mon, Jul 31, 2000 at 19:40:05 (GMT)
From: Zelda
Email: None
To: Robyn
Subject: Buzz- No, the Other one + thanks ham NT
Message:
..'better than a cooler' I love it.

Look forward to hearing from you.
Zelda

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Date: Sat, Jul 29, 2000 at 17:14:26 (GMT)
From: Salam
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: Guru Maharaj Ji, Perfect Master of the Aquarian
Message:
Age.

The Word is the true form of the self, our true identity. It is also the true form of God.

Yet only in the Perfect Master is it totally manifested, and in the normal human being it is obscured. The true Master in this age is Guru Mahamj Ji, and he has been born to reveal this eternal reality within us, to return us to that eternal state which is beyond suffering, fear, and delusion. When this Knowledge is given, it is shown practically. The Word, the pure wave of being, is clearly revealed, and its pure energy is clearly seen as radiant.

Dear sisters, brothers, fathers, mothers and children, the final and most blissful part of God's plan for the universe can only be enacted with your cooperation. When you receive this Knowledge, you'll wish to thank with every fiber of your body the mother who gave you birth, you will wish to worship God with every second, every breath of your life. ..... Until that time, we are dreaming an uncomfortable nightmare,

PII, The Context,{Who is Guru Maharaj Ji?}

Otherwise put:

The Word is the true form of God. Only in the Perfect Master is it totally manifested.The true Master in this age is Guru Mahamj Ji.The final and most blissful part to worship God .

So, is the revealer of the Word of God is God or a messenger of God?

Mg says JC, Buddah, Krishna and others reveled this top secret in the past. Are not buddah and Krishna regarded as God(s) manifesting in human form? This answers the first question : the only way a messenger can reveal the Word of God is God himself.

i.e. gm=God=worship

If this is the case, why does he denies it, or is it possible now for anybody to reveal the Word of God, meaning that there is no need anymore for a perfect master, i.e. gm is redundant.

I have respect for JC, at least he died for what he belived in. But look at gm, he is nothing more than a wimp, too scared to come out in the open and explain to us [we lost souls] how things work, rather he [ his godlyness] sits on his tatered thrown thinking where is the next bundle of money is and what is the best way to go about shaffting some inocent souls.

I mean, really gum ji, if your are it, it's ok with me, I won't bite your head off, if that what you want to be [god], it's fine. Only one favor, stop the BULLSHIT.

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Date: Sat, Jul 29, 2000 at 22:18:44 (GMT)
From: hamzen
Email: None
To: Salam
Subject: You forget that under the universal lila,
Message:
all deception is allowed, because who knows god's plan for the universe eh!

This is what happens when you follow mind, you expect consistency, and the master is beyond all concepts and expectations.

You have obviously been living in maya for too long, and become a rotting vegetable.

As we can now see, phase two is just beginning, and if you had held the faith, you would not now be in so much pain.

World peace can only be just around the corner.

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Date: Sun, Jul 30, 2000 at 02:33:59 (GMT)
From: Salam
Email: None
To: hamzen
Subject: I have not got to that part of the book yet..nt
Message:
nt
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Date: Sun, Jul 30, 2000 at 05:40:49 (GMT)
From: Selene
Email: None
To: Salam
Subject: hey salam got your info regarding this
Message:
hope it's going ok.
I can't help much over the next 10 days or so but did contact JM.
best of luck.
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Date: Sat, Jul 29, 2000 at 11:26:16 (GMT)
From: cq
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: Opening closed doors
Message:
Just found an excellent site that details the processes involved in getting information about nonprofit organisations, here: http://www.sfbg.com/News/31/24/Features/doors.html Strongly recommend all interested parties to read it.

Here's a small taster:

'OPENING CLOSED DOORS

A citizens' guide to investigating nonprofit
organizations.

By Jean Field

'INVESTIGATING A nonprofit is trickier than
investigating a government organization, or even, in
some ways, a private business...'
............................................

'Ask the organization for other information. Most
credible nonprofits will provide considerable
information upon request. Among the things to ask for:

Audited financial statements. Information that may be
especially revealing includes an audited financial
statement, prepared by outside accountants. Although
not the last word on how the organization is run, a
financial statement is prepared by independent
auditors who use standard accounting principles, then
issue an opinion letter about the state of the
organization's books.

Annual reports. Annual reports vary from typewritten
photocopies to full-color, glossy propaganda with pie
charts so complex and lovely they're suitable for
framing. They should provide detailed descriptions of
where and how the organization raised its money,
including names of donors and grant-making
foundations, and what the organization has done with
it.

Ask for anything -- staff rosters, contracts,
budgets, minutes of committee meetings. If you
have a question or concern about a nonprofit
organization, ask for information that might be
relevant. Organizations need to become more open
and fully accountable to the communities they serve,
and one way to help them move in that direction is to
ask for information. Be respectful of the organization's
genuine need to make decisions, run a business, and
preserve the privacy rights of the individuals it serves,
but don't be put off by arbitrary rules. See 'FOI
Resources' for examples of documents that a fully
open organization should supply on request. '

........................................................

Anyone yet requested a copy of EV's Forms 1023 and 990? (the author recommends comparing the two).
{See link for how to request from IRS)

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Date: Sat, Jul 29, 2000 at 17:49:52 (GMT)
From: Salam
Email: None
To: cq
Subject: Opening closed doors
Message:
great sit, jumped into my favorates without even asking?
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Date: Sat, Jul 29, 2000 at 11:09:38 (GMT)
From: SB
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: Elan Vital on MAHARAJI'S name
Message:
From www.elanvital.org

The born king of the Yogis???

'Maharaji' - Origin and Meaning

The name Maharaji, Indians explain, is not a name but an honorary title of respect which literally means 'great king'. Maharaji was so young when he was given this title by his followers in India that it has in essence become the name by which he is now commonly known .

There was a time when, wanting to strip his teaching of all its traditional Indian trappings, he considered dropping 'Maharaji'. There was however a modification. Originally part of a bigger title Satguru, or just guru, Maharaj-ji (the ‘ji’ being the Indian suffix meaning ‘respected’), it became shortened to the more manageable Maharaji, pronounced either as ma-ha-ra-ji or, just as correctly, as Ma-ra-ji. He first became known as Maharaji when he was eight years old. He was then also called the much longer name, Balyogeshwar Paramhans Satgurudev Shri Sant Ji Maharaj. To this day he is better known in India as Balyogeshwar which translates 'born king of the yogis.' To understand the background to all of this it is best to look at his biography in more detail.

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Date: Sat, Jul 29, 2000 at 11:31:00 (GMT)
From: EddyTheTurtle
Email: None
To: SB
Subject: Elan Vital on MAHARAJI'S name
Message:
Every village guru in india is called Maharaji....its as common as calling your mother mum or your uncle dick
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Date: Sat, Jul 29, 2000 at 19:42:32 (GMT)
From: Ben Lurking
Email: None
To: EddyTheTurtle
Subject: Elan Vital on MAHARAJI'S name
Message:
I knew m was just a commoner - now were one step short of calling him the village pillager for short.
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Date: Sat, Jul 29, 2000 at 17:54:59 (GMT)
From: Salam
Email: None
To: EddyTheTurtle
Subject: King my foot..........nt
Message:
nt
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