Forum V: Archive
Compiled: Fri, Sep 01, 2000 at 13:23:18 (GMT)
From: Aug 19, 2000 To: Aug 29, 2000 Page: 5 Of: 5


video gal -:- showing the LOTU video on this site? -:- Sun, Aug 20, 2000 at 21:33:09 (GMT)
__ SB -:- showing the LOTU video on this site? -:- Mon, Aug 21, 2000 at 22:00:16 (GMT)

Forum Admin -:- Two threads deleted.. -:- Sun, Aug 20, 2000 at 21:30:41 (GMT)
__ Joey -:- Two threads deleted.. -:- Sun, Aug 20, 2000 at 22:45:44 (GMT)
__ __ Jim -:- Oh, yes, FA, PLEASE delete this thread too! -:- Mon, Aug 21, 2000 at 01:12:30 (GMT)
__ __ __ Joey -:- Oh, yes, FA, PLEASE delete this thread too! -:- Mon, Aug 21, 2000 at 01:30:57 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Jim -:- Good questions, Joey -:- Mon, Aug 21, 2000 at 01:44:46 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Joey -:- Pathetic answers, Jim -:- Mon, Aug 21, 2000 at 03:48:30 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Nigel -:- Please....!!!!! -:- Mon, Aug 21, 2000 at 02:13:44 (GMT)
__ __ Oliver -:- Two threads deleted... -:- Sun, Aug 20, 2000 at 23:09:47 (GMT)
__ Jim -:- Yeah, that's right, completely irrelevant -:- Sun, Aug 20, 2000 at 21:57:06 (GMT)
__ __ Jerry -:- Jim, you're too fucking funny -:- Mon, Aug 21, 2000 at 00:05:48 (GMT)
__ Joey -:- not fair -:- Sun, Aug 20, 2000 at 21:55:51 (GMT)
__ __ Katie -:- not fair -:- Mon, Aug 21, 2000 at 11:10:54 (GMT)
__ __ __ Joey -:- not the point Katie. -:- Mon, Aug 21, 2000 at 12:18:51 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Joe -:- Joey, get over it.....the MRC letter -:- Mon, Aug 21, 2000 at 15:57:04 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Joey -:- Joe, get over it.....the MRC letter -:- Tues, Aug 22, 2000 at 02:57:29 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Joe -:- Joe, get over it.....the MRC letter -:- Tues, Aug 22, 2000 at 15:48:47 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Joey -:- sorry Joe, you're in the twighlight zone -:- Wed, Aug 23, 2000 at 02:40:20 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Joe -:- Ending this circular discussion -:- Wed, Aug 23, 2000 at 18:12:30 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Joey -:- It ain't over till the fat lady sings -:- Wed, Aug 23, 2000 at 21:47:14 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Selene -:- the fat lady sings -:- Thurs, Aug 24, 2000 at 04:42:02 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ VP -:- Please clue me in, Selene -:- Thurs, Aug 24, 2000 at 17:07:54 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ MRC Member -:- Here's the link... -:- Thurs, Aug 24, 2000 at 17:24:42 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ SB -:- I hear you. I'm with you on it. (nt) -:- Thurs, Aug 24, 2000 at 16:12:32 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ One MRC Member -:- the skinny lady sighs -:- Thurs, Aug 24, 2000 at 06:17:36 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Selene -:- hi thanks for answering -:- Thurs, Aug 24, 2000 at 23:41:57 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ One MRC Member -:- You're welcome -:- Fri, Aug 25, 2000 at 00:29:01 (GMT)
__ SB -:- Did you get my emails? (nt) -:- Sun, Aug 20, 2000 at 21:51:50 (GMT)

SB -:- Quick, quick, GO GET a GOOD laugh!! -:- Sun, Aug 20, 2000 at 20:03:38 (GMT)
__ SB -:- I'm bad, I know. (nt) -:- Mon, Aug 21, 2000 at 22:55:05 (GMT)
__ sb -:- Here is the link -:- Sun, Aug 20, 2000 at 21:45:56 (GMT)
__ __ Stonor -:- Thanks for the link, SB -:- Mon, Aug 21, 2000 at 02:21:55 (GMT)
__ __ __ SB -:- Thanks for the link, SB -:- Mon, Aug 21, 2000 at 10:50:01 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Stonor -:- 53 degrees! My tomatoes will never ripen! -:- Mon, Aug 21, 2000 at 11:21:04 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ sb -:- 53 degrees! My tomatoes will never ripen! -:- Mon, Aug 21, 2000 at 11:47:55 (GMT)

Salam -:- Home decorating -:- Sun, Aug 20, 2000 at 18:24:23 (GMT)
__ Jerry -:- Interesting point -:- Mon, Aug 21, 2000 at 00:53:57 (GMT)
__ sb -:- Home decorating, TO MOVE OUT! -:- Sun, Aug 20, 2000 at 21:18:21 (GMT)

Elaine -:- A truce? -:- Sun, Aug 20, 2000 at 17:13:53 (GMT)
__ Rob -:- Simple solution -:- Tues, Aug 22, 2000 at 17:17:53 (GMT)
__ __ Stonor -:- Simple solution for simple minds. -:- Thurs, Aug 24, 2000 at 00:40:11 (GMT)
__ __ __ Shroomananda -:- Simple solution for 'non-anything' minds: Put -:- Thurs, Aug 24, 2000 at 23:04:03 (GMT)
__ __ cq -:- Establishing boundaries -:- Wed, Aug 23, 2000 at 18:22:18 (GMT)
__ SB -:- No patching -:- Sun, Aug 20, 2000 at 18:38:02 (GMT)
__ __ Elaine -:- No patching -:- Sun, Aug 20, 2000 at 23:30:58 (GMT)
__ __ __ SBored -:- You are bad, very bad, to me. -:- Sun, Aug 20, 2000 at 23:47:56 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Elaine -:- You are bad, very bad, to me. -:- Mon, Aug 21, 2000 at 00:11:22 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ SB -:- You are bad, very bad, to me. -:- Mon, Aug 21, 2000 at 00:27:39 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Elaine -:- Yes, and we can all appreciate that ... -:- Mon, Aug 21, 2000 at 00:37:41 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ SB -:- You spook me: Look what you wrote at Paradise -:- Tues, Aug 22, 2000 at 07:03:09 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Joey -:- Elaine, if I may ejaculate here for a moment :) -:- Mon, Aug 21, 2000 at 05:03:41 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ SB -:- Elaine, if Joey ejaculates here for a moment :) -:- Mon, Aug 21, 2000 at 10:54:57 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Elaine -:- SB -:- Mon, Aug 21, 2000 at 15:04:05 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ sb -:- SB -:- Mon, Aug 21, 2000 at 15:26:26 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Elaine -:- SB -:- Mon, Aug 21, 2000 at 16:00:06 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ SB -:- After reading what you wrote in Paradise, I'll -:- Tues, Aug 22, 2000 at 06:35:23 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Elaine -:- Nice road you decided to take,SB --- nt -:- Tues, Aug 22, 2000 at 10:29:02 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ SBe smart -:- Nice road you decided TO PICK, ass ELAINE -:- Tues, Aug 22, 2000 at 13:12:32 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Joey -:- Elaine, if Joey ejaculates here for a moment :) -:- Mon, Aug 21, 2000 at 12:32:28 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Stonor -:- Elaine, if Joey ejaculates here for a moment :) -:- Mon, Aug 21, 2000 at 12:16:35 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ sb -:- Elaine, if Joey ejaculates here for a moment :) -:- Mon, Aug 21, 2000 at 13:47:35 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Joey -:- Elaine, if Joey ejaculates here for a moment :) -:- Mon, Aug 21, 2000 at 12:26:39 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Stonor -:- Honest Joey :) -:- Mon, Aug 21, 2000 at 12:49:48 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Joey -:- Honest Stonor :) -:- Tues, Aug 22, 2000 at 03:04:14 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Stonor -:- should read- Stonor ejaculates in front of 30 (nt) -:- Mon, Aug 21, 2000 at 12:18:30 (GMT)

Jerry -:- To G, on nonlocality -:- Sun, Aug 20, 2000 at 14:01:42 (GMT)
__ G -:- on nonlocality -:- Fri, Aug 25, 2000 at 00:28:46 (GMT)
__ ham -:- Slight detour Jerry -:- Sun, Aug 20, 2000 at 17:09:27 (GMT)
__ __ Jerry -:- Brain dead and conscious? -:- Sun, Aug 20, 2000 at 21:28:14 (GMT)
__ __ __ ham -:- Brain dead and conscious? -:- Sun, Aug 20, 2000 at 22:07:11 (GMT)
__ Salam -:- To G, on nonlocality -:- Sun, Aug 20, 2000 at 16:30:13 (GMT)
__ __ ham -:- Theres a difference though Salam -:- Sun, Aug 20, 2000 at 17:01:35 (GMT)
__ __ __ Salam -:- Theres a difference though Salam -:- Sun, Aug 20, 2000 at 17:30:04 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ hamzen -:- Theres a difference though Salam -:- Sun, Aug 20, 2000 at 18:12:56 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Salam -:- Theres a difference though Salam -:- Sun, Aug 20, 2000 at 18:32:17 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ ham -:- Theres a difference though Salam -:- Sun, Aug 20, 2000 at 22:23:06 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Salam -:- Theres a difference though Salam -:- Mon, Aug 21, 2000 at 04:17:37 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ hamzen -:- The drugs are in us naturally not taken -:- Tues, Aug 22, 2000 at 19:47:50 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Elaine -:- Evolved -:- Sun, Aug 20, 2000 at 17:49:22 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Salam -:- Evolved -:- Sun, Aug 20, 2000 at 18:36:09 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Elaine -:- Evolved -:- Sun, Aug 20, 2000 at 23:33:11 (GMT)
__ __ __ Elaine -:- ham,can you explain? nt -:- Sun, Aug 20, 2000 at 17:05:43 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ ham -:- ham,can you explain? -:- Sun, Aug 20, 2000 at 17:18:37 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Elaine -:- ham,can you explain? -:- Sun, Aug 20, 2000 at 17:39:51 (GMT)
__ __ Elaine -:- Salam -:- Sun, Aug 20, 2000 at 16:52:58 (GMT)
__ __ __ Salam -:- Salam -:- Sun, Aug 20, 2000 at 17:36:48 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Elaine -:- Salam -:- Sun, Aug 20, 2000 at 17:42:55 (GMT)

St Philip of the light -:- got the bigK when I was 19. 26 years ago. -:- Sun, Aug 20, 2000 at 13:08:31 (GMT)
__ Jerry -:- Computer games (ot) -:- Mon, Aug 21, 2000 at 05:16:20 (GMT)
__ __ St Phil OLT -:- Computer games (ot) -:- Mon, Aug 21, 2000 at 11:27:41 (GMT)
__ __ __ Jerry -:- Computer games (ot) -:- Mon, Aug 21, 2000 at 14:04:20 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ St Phil otl -:- Computer games (ot) -:- Tues, Aug 22, 2000 at 10:20:06 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Jerry -:- Computer games (ot) -:- Tues, Aug 22, 2000 at 16:54:43 (GMT)
__ a regular -:- got the bigK when I was 19. 26 years ago. -:- Sun, Aug 20, 2000 at 20:48:26 (GMT)
__ hamzen -:- Welcomen sunshine -:- Sun, Aug 20, 2000 at 13:32:13 (GMT)
__ SB -:- got the bigK when I was 19. 26 years ago. -:- Sun, Aug 20, 2000 at 13:29:39 (GMT)
__ __ st Phil otl -:- Are there many premies where you are from? -:- Mon, Aug 21, 2000 at 12:00:18 (GMT)
__ __ __ SB -:- Are there many premies where you are from? -:- Mon, Aug 21, 2000 at 21:56:39 (GMT)
__ buzz -:- got the bigK when I was 19. 26 years ago. -:- Sun, Aug 20, 2000 at 13:12:56 (GMT)
__ __ st Phil otl -:- got the bigK when I was 19. 26 years ago. -:- Mon, Aug 21, 2000 at 11:39:01 (GMT)
__ __ __ Selene -:- hey that's my line -:- Mon, Aug 21, 2000 at 17:28:13 (GMT)
__ __ SB -:- got the bigK when I was 19. 26 years ago. -:- Sun, Aug 20, 2000 at 13:30:28 (GMT)
__ __ __ buzz -:- got the bigK when I was 19. 26 years ago. -:- Sun, Aug 20, 2000 at 14:22:42 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ sb -:- got the bigK when I was 19. 26 years ago. -:- Sun, Aug 20, 2000 at 16:31:16 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Salam -:- Now now sb.Don't you go be bashin buzz head, -:- Sun, Aug 20, 2000 at 16:44:09 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ hamzen -:- Now now sb.Don't you go be bashin buzz head, -:- Sun, Aug 20, 2000 at 17:24:50 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Salam -:- Or a Russian sub exploding. -:- Sun, Aug 20, 2000 at 18:42:53 (GMT)

St.Peter -:- Sat.Nite leave -:- Sun, Aug 20, 2000 at 09:39:25 (GMT)
__ Salam -:- Whatever it is, I hope it's good!!!??..nt -:- Sun, Aug 20, 2000 at 16:46:30 (GMT)

buzz -:- shri hans -:- Sun, Aug 20, 2000 at 09:20:25 (GMT)
__ Anon -:- Here is what they say... -:- Sun, Aug 20, 2000 at 10:17:52 (GMT)
__ __ la-ex -:- Here is what they say... -:- Sun, Aug 20, 2000 at 20:59:24 (GMT)

Anon -:- Who is Maharaji's 'Stepmother'? -:- Sat, Aug 19, 2000 at 23:43:25 (GMT)
__ Knowall -:- Who is Maharaji's 'Stepmother'? -:- Mon, Aug 21, 2000 at 04:12:41 (GMT)
__ __ Anon -:- So Shri Hans wanted a son that badly? -:- Mon, Aug 21, 2000 at 21:55:05 (GMT)
__ buzz -:- Who is Maharaji's 'Stepmother'? -:- Sun, Aug 20, 2000 at 00:19:07 (GMT)
__ __ Joey -:- Who is Maharaji's 'Stepmother'? -:- Sun, Aug 20, 2000 at 03:16:46 (GMT)
__ __ bill -:- Who is Maharaji's 'Stepmother'? -:- Sun, Aug 20, 2000 at 03:12:47 (GMT)
__ __ __ Joey -:- oh bill beeeeee...... -:- Sun, Aug 20, 2000 at 03:19:01 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ bee beee -:- oh bill beeeeee...... -:- Sun, Aug 20, 2000 at 03:38:38 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ bill -:- oh -:- Sun, Aug 20, 2000 at 03:47:34 (GMT)

moldy warp -:- ???premielalaland -:- Sat, Aug 19, 2000 at 19:37:52 (GMT)

Helen -:- Secret message for Joe W. -:- Sat, Aug 19, 2000 at 15:44:20 (GMT)
__ Bobby -:- Secret message for Joe W. -:- Sat, Aug 19, 2000 at 17:20:30 (GMT)
__ Joe -:- Hi Helen... -:- Sat, Aug 19, 2000 at 17:10:21 (GMT)
__ Katie -:- Secret message for Joe W. -:- Sat, Aug 19, 2000 at 16:01:17 (GMT)
__ __ Helen -:- The power of literature to change hearts -:- Sun, Aug 20, 2000 at 16:10:46 (GMT)
__ __ __ Bobby -:- dream nature -:- Sun, Aug 20, 2000 at 19:24:14 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Helen -:- wolf guardian angel visitations -:- Tues, Aug 22, 2000 at 01:34:41 (GMT)
__ __ __ Helen -:- power of lit-addendum -:- Sun, Aug 20, 2000 at 16:17:56 (GMT)

JTF -:- It's a wonderful day for a Mind-Fuck !!! -:- Sat, Aug 19, 2000 at 12:47:04 (GMT)

Ebay Alert -:- Penthouse 74 Article -:- Sat, Aug 19, 2000 at 12:23:05 (GMT)
__ Bobby -:- Penthouse 74 Article -:- Sat, Aug 19, 2000 at 17:13:00 (GMT)
__ __ Monmot -:- Penthouse 74 Article -:- Sat, Aug 19, 2000 at 17:55:08 (GMT)
__ __ __ Bobby -:- Penthouse 74 Article -:- Sat, Aug 19, 2000 at 18:17:52 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Jim -:- Kevin Kelly edited The Whole Earth Catalogue (nt) -:- Sat, Aug 19, 2000 at 18:21:41 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Bobby -:- Kevin Kelly edited The Whole Earth Catalogue (nt) -:- Sat, Aug 19, 2000 at 18:28:53 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Jim -:- Kevin Kelly edited The Whole Earth Catalogue (nt) -:- Sat, Aug 19, 2000 at 18:34:45 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Monmot -:- Thanks - Thought My Memory Was Going :-) (nt) -:- Sat, Aug 19, 2000 at 18:19:40 (GMT)
__ __ la-ex -:- Penthouse 74 Article -:- Sat, Aug 19, 2000 at 17:35:29 (GMT)
__ __ __ Bobby -:- Penthouse 74 Article -:- Sat, Aug 19, 2000 at 18:26:47 (GMT)
__ Jerry -:- I remember that -:- Sat, Aug 19, 2000 at 16:19:03 (GMT)
__ __ Jim -:- What I remember -:- Sat, Aug 19, 2000 at 18:28:10 (GMT)
__ __ __ Moldy Warp -:- Dave Wener -:- Sat, Aug 19, 2000 at 22:35:14 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Jim -:- Dave Wener -:- Sun, Aug 20, 2000 at 03:55:26 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Moldy Warp -:- Dave Wener -:- Mon, Aug 21, 2000 at 00:15:43 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Elaine -:- Dave Wener,I'm sorry. -:- Sun, Aug 20, 2000 at 23:44:41 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ sb -:- Dave Wener,I'm sorry. -:- Thurs, Aug 24, 2000 at 16:24:07 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Lotus Eater -:- Dave Wener -:- Sun, Aug 20, 2000 at 19:54:32 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Jim -:- Dave Wener -:- Sun, Aug 20, 2000 at 20:00:31 (GMT)
__ __ __ SB -:- Why did he killed himself? -:- Sat, Aug 19, 2000 at 21:50:06 (GMT)
__ __ Selene -:- I remember that too -:- Sat, Aug 19, 2000 at 16:58:51 (GMT)

Jethro -:- To John Lilly: Re:Chillin nicely -:- Sat, Aug 19, 2000 at 08:24:44 (GMT)
__ JohnT -:- Nope, no such luck. I just posted a quote (nt) -:- Sat, Aug 19, 2000 at 10:15:50 (GMT)
__ __ Jethro -:- No problem -:- Sat, Aug 19, 2000 at 12:50:55 (GMT)


Date: Sun, Aug 20, 2000 at 21:33:09 (GMT)
From: video gal
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: showing the LOTU video on this site?
Message:
To all-has anyone ever thought of asking the original filmmaker of the Lord of the Universe video from the millenium days, if it could be shown on the internet, or at least a few select clips, which would in turn be a little free advertising for him?
Not that anyone would actually buy it, except for a few old time masochists, but it would be interesting to play it as a response to m's little video where he says he's not god...
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Date: Mon, Aug 21, 2000 at 22:00:16 (GMT)
From: SB
Email: None
To: video gal
Subject: showing the LOTU video on this site?
Message:
Hi!

I agree with you, it would be a great idea. People were talking here last week about including videos in this site. Lets bring the subject up once in a while and see what happen.

Bye gal.

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Date: Sun, Aug 20, 2000 at 21:30:41 (GMT)
From: Forum Admin
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: Two threads deleted..
Message:
No software glitch this time. Jim's thread attacking Joey, and Joey's attacking Jim. Neither marked (ot) and neither having anything to do with the purpose of the forum.

Please post this stuff to 'Anything Goes'. That's what it's there for.

Thanks
FA

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Date: Sun, Aug 20, 2000 at 22:45:44 (GMT)
From: Joey
Email: None
To: Forum Admin
Subject: Two threads deleted..
Message:
Notwithstanding Jim's sarcasm which he always resorts to when he has a problem defending his position, I ask you to give serious consideration to my post below in this thread - 'not fair'.

As far as Jim's concerned, he's probably happy the thread was deleted. His association and involvement with the MRC effort is highly questionable as is the final result - the letter itself and the ad that was taken out in the Boston Phoenix.
IMO, that was painfully obvious to anyone who may have followed the thread.

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Date: Mon, Aug 21, 2000 at 01:12:30 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Joey
Subject: Oh, yes, FA, PLEASE delete this thread too!
Message:
Joey's right, I'm in excruciating pain over the debalce of the MRC letter. Just because it might be the singluar thing that prompted Maharaji to stick his foot in his mouth like never before with the new EV FAQ, I'm not impressed. Joey's right, the cult members under my skirt must have been preoccupying me somehow. Onward Christian soldiers!
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Date: Mon, Aug 21, 2000 at 01:30:57 (GMT)
From: Joey
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Oh, yes, FA, PLEASE delete this thread too!
Message:
Just because it might be the singluar thing that prompted Maharaji to stick his foot in his mouth like never before with the new EV FAQ, I'm not impressed

As if M could really afford NOT to respond sooner or later to the ex-premie presence on the net, if you really think that the MRC letter('smacking of guru worship ') did it, you're more deluded than I thought.

And I wonder if you haven't stuck your foot in your mouth by claiming to be part of the whole effort, and then not even know that premies were also part of it.

Tell me, how far will you go to protect the ass of one of your buddies? To what extent will you stand the truth on its head?

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Date: Mon, Aug 21, 2000 at 01:44:46 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Joey
Subject: Good questions, Joey
Message:
Listen, you crazy paranoid freak, the only 'premie' involved was Dettmers and his input ended pretty well by the time I tinkered with the thing. I knew about him; I just didn't realize he was beign counted on to fill the 'premie' category.

Ask 'MRC' for further details if you're so interested.

By the way, when was the last time I called you a crazy paranoid freak?

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Date: Mon, Aug 21, 2000 at 03:48:30 (GMT)
From: Joey
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Pathetic answers, Jim
Message:
By the way, when was the last time I called you a crazy paranoid freak?

Well you do it almost everytime we have an argument, which leads to me to believe, YOU'RE the one who's paranoid...paranoid of being caught with your pants down.

the only 'premie' involved was Dettmers and his input ended pretty well by the time I tinkered with the thing.

Right, and you still haven't told us what your 'tinkering' contribution was all about.

I knew about him; I just didn't realize he was beign counted on to fill the 'premie' category

That's interesting. When Dettmers was here, he presented himself as someone who was out of the cult. Now he's being counted on to fill the 'premie' category. Yes Jim, you're making more and more sense all the time.

Ask 'MRC' for further details if you're so interested

Jim, I'm not going to be discussing this with a bunch of anonymous dweebs, you fool.

BTW, you might want to check out the 'Elaine Getting Centred' photo over on AG.
You're a better contortionist than she is:)
Distortionist too.

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Date: Mon, Aug 21, 2000 at 02:13:44 (GMT)
From: Nigel
Email: fitzroy@liverpool.ac.uk
To: Jim and Joey
Subject: Please....!!!!!
Message:
Shut the fuck up, both of you.

It's boring.

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Date: Sun, Aug 20, 2000 at 23:09:47 (GMT)
From: Oliver
Email: None
To: FA
Subject: Two threads deleted...
Message:
Last night I saw that Joey had Jim on the run in that the latter had stopped replying. I was amused and interested to see what would come of it.
But this morning? Nothing.
Can anyone tell me who got the last post in? After all, that's how one wins around here, isn't it?

:)

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Date: Sun, Aug 20, 2000 at 21:57:06 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Forum Admin
Subject: Yeah, that's right, completely irrelevant
Message:
You're right, FA, I was wrong to attack Joey. I'm sorry, Joey. I really am a protector of cult operatives. And yes, again, FA, that has nothing to do with this forum anyway.

Hey, FA, you're not by chance a cult operative yourself, are you?

Just asking.

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Date: Mon, Aug 21, 2000 at 00:05:48 (GMT)
From: Jerry
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Jim, you're too fucking funny
Message:
I've got to tell you man, there are times you really crack me up. Seriously, thanks for all the laughs these past two years. And thanks for all the clear thinking, as well. It's a guiding light, for those who care to take advantage.

You're alright, dude :)

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Date: Sun, Aug 20, 2000 at 21:55:51 (GMT)
From: Joey
Email: None
To: Forum Admin
Subject: not fair
Message:
Sure, the two threads began with Jim attacking me, and me attacking back, but then it dealt with the entire MRC question which definitely DOES concern this forum.
You certainly took your time in deleting it, and one has to wonder about any lobbying you might have been subjected to urging you to delete it.
There was a similar thread on the MRC issue a week or two ago which you chose NOT to delete.
You might have thought of deleting only those posts which were of a strictly personal nature and leave those posts that dealt with the MRC sham standing.
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Date: Mon, Aug 21, 2000 at 11:10:54 (GMT)
From: Katie
Email: None
To: Joey
Subject: not fair
Message:
Hi Joey -
It's a huge hassle to delete posts in the beginning of a thread and leave the ones at the end - especially if they are interspersed with posts you want to delete. I don't think the deletion had anything to do with the MRC content of the thread, but rather with the opening series of posts in each thread.

Also, Joey, for what it is worth, I think the MRC letter is legitimate. It doesn't pretend to be anything it is not - in fact it clearly STATES what it is. The authors of the letter do not claim in any way to represent ex-premie.org, or the general opinions of most ex-premies. It's just a group of opinions, and as so, the authors are entitled to put it on the internet, and to publicize it - just like we are entitled to say what we think here on the forum, and on ex-premie.org, and on other ex-premie web sites. (A lot of ex-premies don't agree with everything on ex-premie.org, for that matter.)

Furthermore, I do think that letter was the impetus for the creation of the EV FAQ, which are (IMHO, of course) a huge PR disaster for EV.

Just my two cents, as always... And now I have to get to work quick because today is the first day of classes at the university, which equals total chaos :). Wish me luck - I'll need it.

Love,
Katie

I think, also, that there are a lot bigger fish to fry than the MRC letter. I do not see it as any kind of conspiracy or plot to undermine ex-premie.org.

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Date: Mon, Aug 21, 2000 at 12:18:51 (GMT)
From: Joey
Email: None
To: Katie
Subject: not the point Katie.
Message:
It's a huge hassle to delete posts in the beginning of a thread and leave the ones at the end - especially if they are interspersed with posts you want to delete. I don't think the deletion had anything to do with the MRC content of the thread, but rather with the opening series of posts in each thread.

Fine. then the whole thread should have been left standing.

Also, Joey, for what it is worth, I think the MRC letter is legitimate

I'm not the only one who believes the letter was conceived in circumstances that were suspect.

It doesn't pretend to be anything it is not - in fact it clearly STATES what it is. The authors of the letter do not claim in any way to represent ex-premie.org, or the general opinions of most ex-premies

Whether you care to admit or not Katie ,this letter was conceived
BECAUSE of ex-premie.org and via ex-premie.org. And what we have is a result which for most participants on this forum was a sham. You've already heard the comments from others, not only myself.

Furthermore, I do think that letter was the impetus for the creation of the EV FAQ, which are (IMHO, of course) a huge PR disaster for EV.

And I think it was the impetus for Bush choosing Cheney as his running mate. I mean who's spinning this bullshit that people just keep spouting.
Seriously Katie, why would M have to respond to a letter which 'smacked of guru worship,' 'offered M a sense of reprieve' and which even according to Jim was a 'little soft'?
Sooner or later he would have had to respond to the ex-premie presence on the net and I think you know it.

Have a nice day and good luck!

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Date: Mon, Aug 21, 2000 at 15:57:04 (GMT)
From: Joe
Email: None
To: Joey
Subject: Joey, get over it.....the MRC letter
Message:
Look Joey, I was very involved with the MRC letter, and I can assure you there was no involvement by cult operatives. But if you want to go along believing that, go ahead.

One person considered himself a 'premie' when the project began but no longer does. That person posts on this forum and has become extremely critical of Maharaji.

Dettmers made suggested changes to the MRC letter. Some of his suggestions, all minor, were incorporated and some weren't. In my opinion, from what I recall, Dettmer's suggestions to the letter made it STRONGER that it was originally. It made it MORE critical of Maharaji. Although Dettmers commented on the letter, he was not involved, or was he aware of, the plans to put the letter on the internet and to take out the ad.

I also believe that the letter and the Boston ad caused Elan Vital to write those FAQs and I also believe it that has been extremely beneficial in undermining whatever credibility Elan Vital and Maharaji might have had among both premies and non-premies.

Finally, to me, the MOST significant event is Elan Vital putting up a video clip of Maharaji on the internet in which he blatantly llies. Given the MANY quotes we have posted here, and JM has on his website in which Maharaji unambiguosly claime to be God, putting up a video in which Maharaji lies and can easily be proven to be doing so, is just the stupidest and most self-destructive thing I can imagine, and I couldn't be happier.

In my opinion, since the MRC letter dealt mostly with Maharaji's claims to divinity, I think it was the letter and the ad that caused Maharaji to do that. The letter was a good thing. It had a good result. However, as Katie said, it was a project that a group of people decided to do. If you feel so strongly about this, why not put together a letter or some other kind of strategic action on your own, or with others, instead of just bitching about what other people did?

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Date: Tues, Aug 22, 2000 at 02:57:29 (GMT)
From: Joey
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: Joe, get over it.....the MRC letter
Message:
The problem with this defence of the MRC effort is that all these answers as to who was involved, and how it came together have come out piecemeal in what appears to be a totally improvisational manner.

I'll say this again, that Dettmers involvement is highly suspect based on a common sense evaluation of his positon in terms of the cult and its opponents. Again, his interests would lie in seeing a softening of that opposition.

It also seems to me that this assumption on your part, that EV came out with its press release and FAQ's as a response to the MRC letter, is nothing more than hot air and a massive rationalization of a letter which had in it absolutely no mention of the history of sexual abuse in the cult, no mention of M's material abuse, no mention of his self-abuse(of himself and others) and paid only lip service to his abuse of power.

I agree with you that the video clip on the EV site of m lying is a significant development, but I can't see how that has anything to do with the MRC letter.

I also agree with both you and Katie that people have the right to associate in whatever groups they want to express themselves and take action in whatever way they want, but when the subject is M and the cult - that's what we're here to talk about on this forum.

And in view of everything that's been said about this letter not only by myself but by others as well, if you want to see it as 'good thing,' then I'd like to tell you the same thing you have to tell me... 'Get over it'

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Date: Tues, Aug 22, 2000 at 15:48:47 (GMT)
From: Joe
Email: None
To: Joey
Subject: Joe, get over it.....the MRC letter
Message:
The only thing 'piecemeal' about the MRC effort was who was involved. Some people, other than Jim and me in fact, and I think Marianne, have decided to remain anonymous, which is their right.

I'll say this again, that Dettmers involvement is highly suspect based on a common sense evaluation of his positon in terms of the cult and its opponents. Again, his interests would lie in seeing a softening of that opposition.

Highly suspect to whom? I mean other than you? As I said, Dettmers' comments made the letter stronger which would tend to undermine your theory. As far as I can see, you are the only person who still thinks the MRC letter was a bad idea.

Yes, I see the MRC letter as a good thing, and I don't think that is wishful thinking. Yes, I think it caused EV to do what it did. The timing is just too coincidental. I had a lot to do with writing the letter. I stand behind it. Of course, it doesn't say everything everyone would like, but then, it was a letter that we actually wanted people to read that was attempting to address the crux of the issue -- that Maharaji is viewed is divine both now and in the past and that is very harmful.

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Date: Wed, Aug 23, 2000 at 02:40:20 (GMT)
From: Joey
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: sorry Joe, you're in the twighlight zone
Message:
Re Dettmers involvement, you ask,

Highly suspect to whom? I mean other than you?

Certainly when he was here, what he had to say wasn't only suspect to myself. Again, there were more than a few exes who indicated that. Even you yourself, mastering the art of understatement, claimed that what he had to say was 'incomplete'
He just didn't ring true.

I say you're dreaming in technicolor if you refuse to see the obvious.
Nobody occupied as high a place in m's heirarchy for so long, in so many key positions as Michael Dettmers. That should tell you everything you need to know right there.
Unless you believe that everything has been squeeky clean in m's world and that there's no need for an IRS investigation because nothing could possibly be found to be illegal, I don't see how you can fail to see the vulnerability in Dettmers situation.
IMO, if he ever told everything he knows that could spark such an investigation, he could very well become a subject of it himself. As I've already said it would take an act of great courage for him to come forward and personally I would advise him to get a good lawyer before he does so.
This is common sense, nothing more. And under these circumstances for you to take what Dettmers has to say at face value is extremely naive of you. Now you've done this before in the case of Linda Smith, and I believe you've since seen that you were wrong about that, and now you're doing it with Dettmers.

As I said, Dettmers' comments made the letter stronger which would tend to undermine your theory.

This is a meaningless statement since we don't know with whom this letter started out.

As far as I can see, you are the only person who still thinks the MRC letter was a bad idea.

Sorry Joe, now you're entering the realm of dishonesty.I'm sorry, perhaps you want me to repeat some of the commentaries of others the last time it was posted. There were NONE that were favorable.

Yes, I see the MRC letter as a good thing, and I don't think that is wishful thinking. Yes, I think it caused EV to do what it did. The timing is just too coincidental

Wishful thinking is EXACTLY what it is, along with alot of denial.

Of course, it doesn't say everything everyone would like, but then, it was a letter that we actually wanted people to read that was attempting to address the crux of the issue -- that Maharaji is viewed is divine both now and in the past and that is very harmful.

I bet you Maharaji loves it, that we're getting caught up in this bullshit discussion about whether or not he is now, or was ever viewed as divine.
If that is how you see the crux of the issue, 'how Maharaji is viewed as divine' and NOT the abuse he's committed, then you're living in a twilight zone.
A twilight zone of you're own making, with a little help from your friends.

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Date: Wed, Aug 23, 2000 at 18:12:30 (GMT)
From: Joe
Email: None
To: Joey
Subject: Ending this circular discussion
Message:
I think we are all well aware of your opinion, Joey, I just don't think it's shared by anybody else. Of course, you are entitled to it.

No reason to go around in circles with you, though. I will comment on one thing.

I said:

As I said, Dettmers' comments made the letter stronger which would tend to undermine your theory.

And you said:

This is a meaningless statement since we don't know with whom this letter started out.

Maybe you don't know, but I do, so it isn't meaningless at all, it's, in fact, very significant.

You know, Joey, sometimes things just aren't as complicated you as make them. Sometimes things really are as they appear.


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Date: Wed, Aug 23, 2000 at 21:47:14 (GMT)
From: Joey
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: It ain't over till the fat lady sings
Message:

Perhaps YOU'RE going round and round in circles but that's your problem. I've responded to what you've had to say in this thread, and especially in my last post, introduced a couple of new elements re: Dettmers situation and the difference between dealing with questions such as 'how m was/is viewed as divine' vs dealing with the issue of his abuse. Again, I believe that m is laughing that we've been sucked into a discussion of the former, as opposed to the latter.

You say:
I think we are all well aware of your opinion, Joey, I just don't think it's shared by anybody else.

I've never thought I'd say this to you Joe, but you remind me of premies blindly repeating the lies of the cult.
So again, for the last time, I'll remind you of the comments of your and my peers the last time the MRC letter was posted.
-the letter smacks of guru worship.
-seems to offer m a reprieve
-the problem with the letter is that it's alot like telling a thief that it's not nice to be a thief.

These were other people's comments, not my own. I believe they support my opinion that what we have with the MRC letter is a very poor result.

Since the time it was last posted, there has only been one very qualified expression of support for it coming from outside the MRC group, and that's been from Katie.

I believe that if you post this letter again on the forum for continued debate, you would fare even worse. I've never really dissected it on the forum, just shared a few summary observations.

Re my view of Dettmers; when he was here on forum, other people expressed the view that he lacked credibility, very similar to my own opinion I'm expressing today.

Regarding my opinion that this was a ploy of the cult; while perhaps many would not go that far, the fact that some people are willing to at least entertain the idea given the intimidation they'd surly face from Jim ...well I take heart that I'm not alone in that as well.

So, I'll take your cue that this discussion has now come to an end. If others want to attempt to salvage the case that you and Jim have failed to make, that's their business.
I've dealt with Jim's utter paranoia at being caught with his pants down, and with your dishonest spin meistering...and I've seen enough.

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Date: Thurs, Aug 24, 2000 at 04:42:02 (GMT)
From: Selene
Email: None
To: Joey
Subject: the fat lady sings
Message:
To whoever wrote the letter and are not telling us : was it meant to represent ex-premie.org?
I hope not. and, I am not fat
but I do think the MRC letter falls short. I was the one who said
it gives M a false sense of reprieve

Why?
It does not address the deep issues. That is my take on it IMO.

What about the suicides and the families left in that aftermath
? what about:
ME for example. A woman who spent most of her adult life denying her feelings, stuffing and left to dealing with it now?

No I do not think the MRC letter is sufficient and I feel that publishing something like that is not representative of all of us.
MRC authors doesn't this letter get M off the hook for what I addressed above and much more?
Am I wrong. and if so, how am I wrong
please tell me!!
1. are you representing us on this site?
2. if so why when some of us do not agree?
3. what about the msg. I just wrote?

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Date: Thurs, Aug 24, 2000 at 17:07:54 (GMT)
From: VP
Email: None
To: Selene
Subject: Please clue me in, Selene
Message:
What the hell is everyone talking about? What and where is this MCR letter? I haven't been reading the forum lately, can you tell?
Thanks,
VP
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Date: Thurs, Aug 24, 2000 at 17:24:42 (GMT)
From: MRC Member
Email: None
To: VP
Subject: Here's the link...
Message:
Dear VP:

A group of us wrote an open letter to M, took an ad out in the Boston Phoenix for the week when M was appearing in Boston, with the hopes that premies in that area might see the ad and visit the site which was mentioned in the ad.

The letter has caused a controversy, to say the least, in this forum.

Here's the link to the letter:

http://www.tigerriver.com/mletter.html

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Date: Thurs, Aug 24, 2000 at 16:12:32 (GMT)
From: SB
Email: None
To: Selene
Subject: I hear you. I'm with you on it. (nt)
Message:
hi!
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Date: Thurs, Aug 24, 2000 at 06:17:36 (GMT)
From: One MRC Member
Email: None
To: Selene
Subject: the skinny lady sighs
Message:
Dear Selene:

Here are some, but not necessarily definitive, answers to your questions.

To whoever wrote the letter and are not telling us : was it meant to represent ex-premie.org? I hope not. and, I am not fat but I do think the MRC letter falls short. I was the one who said it gives M a false sense of reprieve. Why?

It was not meant to represent EPO, otherwise it would have been posted for suggestions etc. We never presumed to represent EPO. No one's said you're fat. What does your 'why' question refer to?

It does not address the deep issues. That is my take on it IMO.

I would say it does not address all deep issues, but it certainly does address some. No one letter could address all the issues relevant to M's effect on us. We all spoke at length about a variety of issues, but felt that they all could not be addressed in one letter. So we were aware of other deep issues even if they don't appear in the letter.

What about the suicides and the families left in that aftermath? what about: ME for example. A woman who spent most of her adult life denying her feelings, stuffing and left to dealing with it now?

As I said above, not all issues could be addressed in one letter. We had hoped that perhaps there would have been a series of letters (not written by the MRC people) addressed to M about the issues you raised and more. Perhaps, in regard to your question about YOU spending most of your adult life denying your feelings, stuff and left to dealing with it now, you could craft a letter yourself addressing this and your other points.

No I do not think the MRC letter is sufficient and I feel that publishing something like that is not representative of all of us.

The MRC group was/is free to publish whatever letter we so chose/choose to write, and AGAIN, it never states to represent 'all of us.' We wrote the letter, paid for the ad, and never thought that the letter addressed ALL the issues or represented ALL of us (a near impossibility anyway).

MRC authors doesn't this letter get M off the hook for what I addressed above and much more? Am I wrong. and if so, how am I wrong please tell me!!

This letter does not let M off the hook, and I'd be surprised if he or his minions thought so. And, again, this letter was not meant to address all issues.

1. are you representing us on this site?

NO

2. if so why when some of us do not agree?

We don't represent this site, so the question is moot.

3. what about the msg. I just wrote?See above.

Selene, you said that you could've written a better letter but that you never would have. Perhaps this is now the time for you to carpe diem and write a letter addressing some of the issues which you raised.

Thanks

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Date: Thurs, Aug 24, 2000 at 23:41:57 (GMT)
From: Selene
Email: None
To: One MRC Member
Subject: hi thanks for answering
Message:
I write about my issues HERE. I don't bother to write to M because I dont' trust him, I don't think THAT is hard to understand.
I'm free to express my opinions just as you (whoever you are) are free to write any letter you want.
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Date: Fri, Aug 25, 2000 at 00:29:01 (GMT)
From: One MRC Member
Email: None
To: Selene
Subject: You're welcome
Message:
And I'm free to express my opinions just as you are free to write any letter you want also.

I don't think M's worthy of trust also. We're on the same side. A few of us tried to do something publicly, that's all. (Not that the forum's not public; probably more than we know.)

Tx

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Date: Sun, Aug 20, 2000 at 21:51:50 (GMT)
From: SB
Email: None
To: Forum Admin
Subject: Did you get my emails? (nt)
Message:
sss
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Date: Sun, Aug 20, 2000 at 20:03:38 (GMT)
From: SB
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: Quick, quick, GO GET a GOOD laugh!!
Message:
Go to Anyhting Goes. Sir Dave has added a gorgeous picture
of ELAINE getting centered!!

TRIPLE ROFL!!

So funny!!

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Date: Mon, Aug 21, 2000 at 22:55:05 (GMT)
From: SB
Email: None
To: SB
Subject: I'm bad, I know. (nt)
Message:
nt
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Date: Sun, Aug 20, 2000 at 21:45:56 (GMT)
From: sb
Email: None
To: SB
Subject: Here is the link
Message:
Elaine getting centered

Sir Dave's humor rocks!

And Elaine is ok with it. She says she feels honored by it.

Have fun.

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Date: Mon, Aug 21, 2000 at 02:21:55 (GMT)
From: Stonor
Email: None
To: sb
Subject: Thanks for the link, SB
Message:
I've been too busy cooking to keep on top of everything, and I would have missed it. I've been to the Cirque du Soleil a few times, have you heard od it? Those contortionists are amazing, aren't they?
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Date: Mon, Aug 21, 2000 at 10:50:01 (GMT)
From: SB
Email: None
To: Stonor
Subject: Thanks for the link, SB
Message:
I saw them in April, in Las Vegas! I love those guys: Such a show!

I envy you, harvesting...I lived with my grandmother for two years, in the country, country, when I was about 11 years-old and harvesting and canning was trully a nice event in her house.

Just a joke. Elaine said to somebody at Anthing Goes that we ex-premies were too something, and that she needed to get centered. Dave came up with that. LOL

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Date: Mon, Aug 21, 2000 at 11:21:04 (GMT)
From: Stonor
Email: None
To: SB
Subject: 53 degrees! My tomatoes will never ripen!
Message:
Hi SB,

It's no farm here, just my backyard harvest, and if it doesn't warm up my tomatoes will never ripen! At least it's sunny. I'll have to get out ther and put plastic over them.

I've gotta to go centre on my cooking! (But not like that ... no pretzels on the menu today!)

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Date: Mon, Aug 21, 2000 at 11:47:55 (GMT)
From: sb
Email: None
To: Stonor
Subject: 53 degrees! My tomatoes will never ripen!
Message:
I had to heat my place last night! Is cold. Ouch, I just remember winter is coming...:(

No, I didn't meant to say that I thought you had a farm. I was really commenting on the harvest itself. I remember the good feeling and shared with you about me living in the country, as to say I know the feeling. Put it this way, the amount doesn't count, but the act of doing it. Good food that you saw growing.

Pretzels!! hahaha.....

have a nice day :)

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Date: Sun, Aug 20, 2000 at 18:24:23 (GMT)
From: Salam
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: Home decorating
Message:
Isn't it interesting.

Because even if you have a dilapidated house (like some)
you can make it look and feel the way you want, by changing few things.
Take color for example, a light shade will make a room look larger,

while using a darker shade make it smaller. The same thing with curtains,
If you want you ceiling to look higher use curtains that hangs all the way
to the floor.

But what does that tell us about reality. That you can change the truth of the
matter by playing some subtle psychological tricks.

Look at car accident, most of the time the police do not take
the word of the 'Accidentees' and look for witnesses.

Is not this like leading the way your own way?

I remember when I used to be a salesman and a new person
starts working with us, my first reaction was 'things are not so good mate'.
That was a lie to deter that person, so I do not have competion,
most of the time, anyone that worked close to me will leave in
a very short time.
What I did is paint a picture of doom and gloom.
I made the world too small for that person that he could not see further than
His nose. I changed his prospect of how big the world is.

Maharaji does the same:

1- he is the perfect master; therefore he should know what he is talking about.
2- I can revel you the secret. Oh wow human curiosity is endless.
3- I have come to save you. Generated an anxiety that did not exist to start with.
4- you can have it, it is free. Put a damper on my eyes, there is nothing out there
that is worth it, so do not look.
5- all I want in return is 'simply'. Put very strategically, so you do not get scared.
6- all I want is. You are already hooked on to the bait. Now he is closing the curtains.
7- the sacred vow. Got you, you stupid ass. Now you are mine, completely blind,
you have turned into a zombie; the world does not exist anymore,
your friends, family, work, study, dreams are all a threat to Maharaji,
he says that he has no objection for you to do all that,
but he 'simply' want you to do service, satsang and meditation
so you do not question what is the space outside the window

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Date: Mon, Aug 21, 2000 at 00:53:57 (GMT)
From: Jerry
Email: None
To: Salam
Subject: Interesting point
Message:
3- I have come to save you. Generated an anxiety that did not exist to start with.

It's true. I didn't know I needed to be saved until they told me. Mind you this happenned well before M, thanks to my Christian upbringing, but M just takes advantage of that, puts it into his sales pitch. Yeah, these fuckers who think they're here to save us are just taking advantage of our gullibility that's what we need to be. Good point, Salam. Overall, a good post, too :)

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Date: Sun, Aug 20, 2000 at 21:18:21 (GMT)
From: sb
Email: None
To: Salam
Subject: Home decorating, TO MOVE OUT!
Message:
Lard has so much compassion! He stripped us of our identity to make our lifes simpler... NOT!

How good the process of entrapment was that we fall for it, eh?

Now is our turn to entrap him.

I liked your post. Good to see you around.

SB

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Date: Sun, Aug 20, 2000 at 17:13:53 (GMT)
From: Elaine
Email: None
To: SB
Subject: A truce?
Message:
SB,

How would you like - for our sakes - and everyone elses'--
to call a truce of some kind?

You can even define the perameters (sp?) if you'd like.

Sincerely,
Elaine

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Date: Tues, Aug 22, 2000 at 17:17:53 (GMT)
From: Rob
Email: None
To: Elaine
Subject: Simple solution
Message:
You've expressed a commendable concern for this little alien environment of ours, Elaine, I'm sure we're all deeply touched.

However, the resolution is far simpler than you have yet suggested. You should simply pack up and leave.

After all, you are a practising premie are you not? Or are you 'on the fringe'? You must be aware that you are here despite your lord's wishes, so even if you do not consider yourself to be a fringe premie, your very presence here would qualify you as one in the in the minds of the 'Safety & Security' department. Unless, of course, you are here under orders?

Anyway, modern manners would dictate that in the circumstances it is up to the guest to make a discreet departure. That would be you, seeing as this is a forum for ex-premies, and SB is a full-blooded one and you are not.

Plain enough?

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Date: Thurs, Aug 24, 2000 at 00:40:11 (GMT)
From: Stonor
Email: None
To: Rob
Subject: Simple solution for simple minds.
Message:
Did it feel good, Rob, to 'know' exactly the right solution again? Heck, with your kind of knowledge, you don't have to waste anytime following events or finding out what is at issue, do you? Just like magic, that 'knowledge' of yours, no matter what side of the fences you sit on. Why live in boring shades of grey? Your black and white environment eliminates so many messy details. Shit, I should've joined a cult years ago ... when I think of all the time I've wasted not knowing the right answers. And damn-it, I'm fucking up again. I know what the politically correct answers are here at Forum V, and I still can't just go along with the dogma!! Well, what can I say, once a loser, always a loser, and always left out of that fun loop of being in the 'know'.
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Date: Thurs, Aug 24, 2000 at 23:04:03 (GMT)
From: Shroomananda
Email: None
To: Stonor
Subject: Simple solution for 'non-anything' minds: Put
Message:
what you don't know in a box so your simple mind can deal with it. Call it a 'cult'. Real simple. That way you don't have to investigate for yourself. Just parrot what others have said about the subject. What makes you such an authority, Stonor? Because you're a schoolmarm? It's so convenient to write it off as a 'cult', isn't it? What a loser! Oh and I guess it's not OK for a person with Knowledge to swear but it's OK for a non-anything to. Right? Even for a non-anything you're embarrassing!
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Date: Wed, Aug 23, 2000 at 18:22:18 (GMT)
From: cq
Email: None
To: Elaine
Subject: Establishing boundaries
Message:
You still call yourself a premie though, don't you?

Premies got you, me and SB into this whole trip with the Maha in the first place, Elaine. I'm sure you can see why she is none to willing to let you try and satsang/censor her into 'that place' again.

We all have strong feelings about this particular con-artist. Sure, a diplomat would refrain from using words like 'garbage', but IMO this Forum serves a better purpose in allowing those who, sometimes for years, would not, could not express any thought that was unfavourable to the Maha.

This site is more valid as a place where free expression, regardless of the normal civil constraints of tact, diplomacy, etc, can be given its therapeutic rein.

Remember, most exes have no reason for being considerate toward the Maha. (Legitimately). Unlike you, apparently.

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Date: Sun, Aug 20, 2000 at 18:38:02 (GMT)
From: SB
Email: None
To: Elaine
Subject: No patching
Message:
Just watch your mouth; that would do it. If not, I have no problem responding to your garbage.
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Date: Sun, Aug 20, 2000 at 23:30:58 (GMT)
From: Elaine
Email: None
To: SB
Subject: No patching
Message:
Umm...that wasn't exactly what I was thinking about, SB.

I was thinking a truce where words like 'garbage' weren't said.
As in 'no attitude'.
You, of course, can have your attitude - but, I was thinking - restraining from it spilling over into words here. ---For us, and others.

When there was a disagreement. Words like - 'Can't really agree with you on that one, Elaine.I think you're all wrong.''
As opposed to 'That was garbage.'

Is that reasonable?

Could you consider that?

Sincerely,
Elaine

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Date: Sun, Aug 20, 2000 at 23:47:56 (GMT)
From: SBored
Email: None
To: Elaine
Subject: You are bad, very bad, to me.
Message:
I do not like you, get it? I don't like people like you. You have been very rude to me and I think I know by now how you are.

I see no sense in calling garbage something else, when that's what it's. You deliberatly try to mask it as something else, but I read better than what I write, and I do not think with an accent. You are fake and I doubt that you are interested in changing your 'power' games. Good luck to you. Sincerely. Is your real name Helen?

Magic, baby!! Yes!! Whatever rocks your boat, Elaine. I rather tango. And I love humor.

I'm glad that you took SD's pic with humor.

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Date: Mon, Aug 21, 2000 at 00:11:22 (GMT)
From: Elaine
Email: None
To: SBored
Subject: You are bad, very bad, to me.
Message:
SB,

Of course, we don't like each other.
We've been rude to each other. We all know that.
That is a given.
Isn't it wonderful were agree on one thing. :)

I'll continue to not like you,and you can agree to not like me -
what I was thinking was to ask for a truce on this site...to spare us and others of a 'feud' - that doesn't need to take place. We already know we don't like each other ---there's nothing more to accomplish.

Why, we can read each others posts and just imagine what the other would say. So why say it?

We're not going to dislike each other more - and we are certainly not going to ever like each other. So hows about leaving it at that?

We can spare our fellow posters the personal feud.They are here for other things.

How does that sound? Reasonable?

Sincerely,
Elaine

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Date: Mon, Aug 21, 2000 at 00:27:39 (GMT)
From: SB
Email: None
To: Elaine
Subject: You are bad, very bad, to me.
Message:
You are so considerate: They are here for other things'. You crack me up! LOL I get it.

I have problems compromising with a lier.

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Date: Mon, Aug 21, 2000 at 00:37:41 (GMT)
From: Elaine
Email: None
To: SB
Subject: Yes, and we can all appreciate that ...
Message:
Well, let's see,SB.

We all have a hard time with something.I think we all understand that.

If you tried, do you think if we all knew you felt you were compromising with a liar - for the Greater Good of the Forum- perhaps you could see your way to restraining your true feelings - in words only? You understand.

You can still feel your feelings to the fullest extent.

Sincerely,
Elaine

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Date: Tues, Aug 22, 2000 at 07:03:09 (GMT)
From: SB
Email: None
To: Elaine
Subject: You spook me: Look what you wrote at Paradise
Message:
Posted: Sat, Aug 19, 2000 at 12:58:30 (EDT)
Original: Sat, Aug 19, 2000 at 08:15:54 (EDT)

Posted by: Elaine Recipient: buzz

Email Address: Not Provided Recipient: Not Provided
Browser Type: Mozilla/4.0 (compatible; MSIE 5.0; MSNIA; Windows 98; DigExt)

Subject: Re: meditation
Message:

Hi buzz,
The West/Southwest in USA. Rec'd Kn in '73 before Millenium. I was friends with a bunch of fun loving hippies so we drove there. Otherwise I wouldn't have gone probably.
I'm not a die-hard premie ---long time ago I referred to myself as a crappy premie.
I'm into anything that can help me grow. Even therapy.

If I hadn't called myself 'a premie' on F5 I wouldn't be getting the crap I usually do.

I love to meditate and go in spurts of forgetting to. But, have learned little tricks to go nice and deep quickly. I used to have to sit for an hour before my mind stopped and the experience started to happened. ( ...of me observing whatever and being 'taken' whereever.)

I really want to just feel connected - if that means mellow or peaceful or to have vast insights - whatever. Oh, connected to...reality - how's that one for lack of a better word.
I think when I'm hooked up to 'reality' things in the world
don't bother me. If you think this is all 'really real' - it could get very disturbing.

Take care,
later,
Elaine

I'm too unreal for you, eh?

Stop the lies. You have no clue what you are looking for. Peace will come to you when you get sincere with yourself.

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Date: Mon, Aug 21, 2000 at 05:03:41 (GMT)
From: Joey
Email: None
To: Elaine
Subject: Elaine, if I may ejaculate here for a moment :)
Message:
If you tried, do you think if we all knew you felt you were compromising with a liar - for the Greater Good of the Forum- perhaps you could see your way to restraining your true feelings - in words only?

For the 'Greater Good of the Forum,' Elaine, or for your own good?

And what makes you so qualified to speak for the 'Greater Good of the Forum' ??

And what an utterly pathetic suggestion.

restraining your true feelings

Yuck! Only a premie!!

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Date: Mon, Aug 21, 2000 at 10:54:57 (GMT)
From: SB
Email: None
To: Joey
Subject: Elaine, if Joey ejaculates here for a moment :)
Message:
I will comment.

restraining your true feelings

Yuck! Only a premie!!

And I am supposse to say yes, I want to fake what I feel to make her happy? How stupid that request can be?

How disgusting is ignorance?

How much I dislike her? She doesn't get it.

YUCK....................

Hi Joey!

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Date: Mon, Aug 21, 2000 at 15:04:05 (GMT)
From: Elaine
Email: None
To: SB
Subject: SB
Message:
SB,

Actually, I thought I made it clear that - No, have your feelings...no one wants to take them away from you - they are your feelings and they are valid.

I don't want you 'to fake your feelings to make me happy'.

Not at all.
And SB, I probably don't like you as much as you don't like me - I indeed, DO 'get it?'.

My request or suggestion is actually NOT 'stupid' at all.

If countries can make a decision to, in the least, NOT make war - I truly think you and I can come to some 'terms'.

Now, if you want to continue with the way it is - that is certainly your choice/decision.

I thought a 'truce' would be nice for everyone.

I am willing and open to try. And we can remember - that we can't stand each other even though the posting gets toned down.

Would you like to try? Maybe on a temporary basis.
A week or two. You pick.

Remember - you can dislike me as much as you do - we just both decide to 'tone it down'.

Personally, I think this is an issue between you and me to decide. This is a white flag I'm extending.
Whether someone comments and agrees with you or agrees with me ---it is purely our decision,no?

Thank you.

Sincerely,
Elaine

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Date: Mon, Aug 21, 2000 at 15:26:26 (GMT)
From: sb
Email: None
To: Elaine
Subject: SB
Message:
I understand what a truce is! I answered 'no patching' because I think that is what you want to do. You want to cover the fact that you meant to harm me posting my name, well, close. I don't believe that you never read my posts. You knew that it was going to bother me. You want to stop it, for a while, How candid. Scram Elaine. Be yourself and let me be me.

Do you realize that you are asking me to trust your words? I don't trust anything you say anymore. Redemption? Show the catalogue first, then I may buy.

Enjoy your day.

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Date: Mon, Aug 21, 2000 at 16:00:06 (GMT)
From: Elaine
Email: None
To: sb
Subject: SB
Message:
'Redemption? Show the cataloque first, then I buy.'

What does that mean?

BTW, I'm not asking you for anything really - except a truce. Even a temporary,experimental one.

Actually, I thought I've been extremely clear. No I don't want to 'patch' anything.

Let me say it yet again,SB: We both know we can't stand each other. That does not have to change. We don't have to trust each other. We can hate or despise each other to the maximun degree in our hearts.

All I was suggesting was a VERBAL truce - even temporarily.

And if you truly do not want to try after all this,
that will be fine - it is entirely your decision.

I find you are doing very well already - there has been no mention from you of * F___ing off or bitch or dirty liar* in a few of your posts to me.
That seems to be working right now. How about continuing for a bit?
As I said before - you could feel free to say,for just an example --'I disagree with what you said,Elaine - you're not thinking clearly.' That is still expressing your opinion and letting me and everyone know you disagree.

Is that anything you'd be willing to try?

And,BTW, I am myself,already.

Thank you.
Sincerely,
Elaine

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Date: Tues, Aug 22, 2000 at 06:35:23 (GMT)
From: SB
Email: None
To: Elaine
Subject: After reading what you wrote in Paradise, I'll
Message:
tell you something: YOU ARE A TOTAL RETARDED BITCH!!!

YOU ARE A SICK PUPPY.

You wish to be me. You simply wish. Your insecurity and sick mind speaks tons about your 'search'. You are really looking for enlightment. Well, you were looking for the truth, now I told you who you are. If you don't like to be that, start changing. You totally suck!! Yucky, repugnant person!!

Honesty obliges.

I bet you you have too many years of hearing lies. Learn to behave. You can't hide. If you want to trash me get an email account, so you can correspond with Stonor and talk about everybody. Ass.

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Date: Tues, Aug 22, 2000 at 10:29:02 (GMT)
From: Elaine
Email: None
To: SB
Subject: Nice road you decided to take,SB --- nt
Message:
nt
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Date: Tues, Aug 22, 2000 at 13:12:32 (GMT)
From: SBe smart
Email: None
To: Elaine
Subject: Nice road you decided TO PICK, ass ELAINE
Message:
You are the most disgusting character I saw here.

I feel no remorse for calling you names: You deserve each and everyone. ROFL at you. Silly ignorante, presumptous, enlighten my ass, pitiful premie person. Enjoy your 'light', if you know what I mean...Light, get it? No weight.

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Date: Mon, Aug 21, 2000 at 12:32:28 (GMT)
From: Joey
Email: None
To: SB
Subject: Elaine, if Joey ejaculates here for a moment :)
Message:
And I am supposse to say yes, I want to fake what I feel to make her happy? How stupid that request can be?

I think that's the point with Elaine. She wants you to become as fake as she is. Then she'll have you on her playing field.
Personally, I think she's freaked by your genuineness, SB.

I say...You be you and no one and nothing else. You're just great as you are!

Have a nice day!

Love ya,
Joey

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Date: Mon, Aug 21, 2000 at 12:16:35 (GMT)
From: Stonor
Email: None
To: SB
Subject: Elaine, if Joey ejaculates here for a moment :)
Message:
Still drinking my coffee.

I've GOT to tell you about when I had to go around from class to class in the adult-ed highschool one day telling them about the anti-flu inoculations (I was working on program development so I didn't have a class then). In one class, yes you've got it ... I said 'ejaculations' instead of 'inoculations'. I stayed very calm (most of the students were second language, I told myself) and acted like nothing had happened. No one said anything! I think that the few that heard it were too shocked to speak!!! Even I couldn't believe my ears, or my mouth! Talk about a Freudian slip!

(Sorry SB, I haven't read the posts above)

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Date: Mon, Aug 21, 2000 at 13:47:35 (GMT)
From: sb
Email: None
To: Stonor
Subject: Elaine, if Joey ejaculates here for a moment :)
Message:
That is funny! Is like, Pubic Event. The poor L was omitted. I did that. LOL.

No need to read the thread, again, is about nothing real, like humor is, for example. What more real than a laugh? (Look at my depth here: SB having a silly morning.) No coffe yet; maybe that's the 'problem'.

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Date: Mon, Aug 21, 2000 at 12:26:39 (GMT)
From: Joey
Email: None
To: Stonor
Subject: Elaine, if Joey ejaculates here for a moment :)
Message:
(Sorry SB, I haven't read the posts above)

Bullshit! IMO.

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Date: Mon, Aug 21, 2000 at 12:49:48 (GMT)
From: Stonor
Email: None
To: Joey
Subject: Honest Joey :)
Message:
I don't like fights! I scanned SB's a bit, but it didn't really go in because I only went back to look at it when I realized I hadn't. Why? It was the subject title that made me think of that story to tell SB - she's always making so many good jokes, I took the opportunity to tell her one in return, that's all.

And do you know how to prepare mangos?

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Date: Tues, Aug 22, 2000 at 03:04:14 (GMT)
From: Joey
Email: None
To: Stonor
Subject: Honest Stonor :)
Message:
I don't like fights!

Sheesh, you could've fooled me!:)

But heck, I'll take your word for it and I'll get back to you on the mangoes:)

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Date: Mon, Aug 21, 2000 at 12:18:30 (GMT)
From: Stonor
Email: None
To: Stonor
Subject: should read- Stonor ejaculates in front of 30 (nt)
Message:
or was it 35?
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Date: Sun, Aug 20, 2000 at 14:01:42 (GMT)
From: Jerry
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: To G, on nonlocality
Message:
Sorry, people if you find this discussion I'm having with G to be tiresome and out of place, but, well, there's another point I just HAVE to make.

G,

If consciousness IS nonlocal to the brain, that still doesn't support your theory that consciousness can exist on it's own without the brain. Nonlocality shows dependence of one particle on another. When particle A spins left, particle B spins right, when A spins up, B spins down. So the two are dependent upon each other for the actions they take. They're not independent of one another. How does this show an independence of consciousness from the brain? I don't see it.

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Date: Fri, Aug 25, 2000 at 00:28:46 (GMT)
From: G
Email: None
To: Jerry
Subject: on nonlocality
Message:
I'm not citing the nonlocality exhibited by two entangled particles as evidence of the independence of awareness from the brain. I don't think that that type of nonlocality is sufficient to account for qualia or for the simultaneous awareness of qualia.

I believe that awareness is not located in material space at all. There are many qualia that are nonspatial. To me, this indicates that awareness is nonmaterial and thus not dependent on matter.
Matter is not the end-all and be-all, after all, it was created from something else.

I do not think of Occam's razor as evidence for material monism. I'm starting with a different assumption than you are, that awareness and matter are different. Maybe (a big maybe) mind and matter are formed from the same ultimate substance, but I don't think that substance is matter, and that wouldn't mean they are the same.

Regarding 'brain dead and conscious', I've read about cases where nde's were reported after there was no measurable brain activity.

For the record, I'm not arguing, nor did I argue for 'God' 'on the back of' QM as Jim claimed. First, I don't believe in 'God' in the Biblical sense of a separate entity that created the universe from nothing. I don't think of 'God' as a guy in the sky. Second, I'm not arguing for anything 'on the back of' QM. I've cited many reasons for my beliefs and they do not depend on QM.

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Date: Sun, Aug 20, 2000 at 17:09:27 (GMT)
From: ham
Email: None
To: Jerry
Subject: Slight detour Jerry
Message:
One point I didn't make to you the other day re consciousness and unconsciousness, there's been some research over here recently about brain death and cutting off life support etc. Turns out a number of people classified without doubt as brain dead or in comas who didn't have their life support cut off were conscious but completely immobile, which of course proves nothing just enhances our mapping of consciousness.

The Susan Greenfield series on neurobiology finishes this week and it's all on consciousness, should be fascinating. The whole series has been superb and the first tv series I've ever seen that incorporates systems thinking at quite a deep level.

Isn't the workings of the brain fascinating!

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Date: Sun, Aug 20, 2000 at 21:28:14 (GMT)
From: Jerry
Email: None
To: ham
Subject: Brain dead and conscious?
Message:
Turns out a number of people classified without doubt as brain dead or in comas who didn't have their life support cut off were conscious but completely immobile, which of course proves nothing just enhances our mapping of consciousness.

ham, if it can be proven that people who are brain dead still posess consciousness, those of us who think consciousness requires a living brain are going to have to rethink our concepts of where consciousness comes from. How did they figure out that these brain dead individuals were 'conscious but immobile'?

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Date: Sun, Aug 20, 2000 at 22:07:11 (GMT)
From: ham
Email: None
To: Jerry
Subject: Brain dead and conscious?
Message:
Gonna have to find that stuff, fuck it, can't find where I filed it, for definite there were coma victims sited who returned to consciousness and described conversations that had taken place etc while they were in the coma, if I remember rightly there was also a couple of people who nearly had life support removed who returned to recognizable consciousness with limited physical mobility, similar results as per the coma states people.

As you can imagine it frightened the shit out of the doctors.

I really must get a proper filing system sorted for this shit.

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Date: Sun, Aug 20, 2000 at 16:30:13 (GMT)
From: Salam
Email: None
To: Jerry
Subject: To G, on nonlocality
Message:
I thought I will comment on this if you do not mind,
from experience. I do not know how much you belive
in out of body experience, but I have had a few,
during meditation and sometimes instantanious. I can say
that 'the I that is ME' which is my consiousness
was floating around looking excatly through the
same eyes.
I belive that the body is only temporary, and that
the consious moves on. I have not follwed this line of
thought or research because it was never my interest.
My belife is that you can learn all what you want, get
as much realisation as you want but that does not mean
anything. Your consious will not fly and be one with
the so called 'Total'. This is a fairy tale told by
gurus and the like to scare us. 'the YOU who you are'
will always be around'. I am not sure if you have tried
reburthing sessions.
I have an excellent book written by a Japaneese scientest,
how investegated stuff like that, especially the question
of chakras, which he invented some device to detect
their activities. I will post the title when I locate it.
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Date: Sun, Aug 20, 2000 at 17:01:35 (GMT)
From: ham
Email: None
To: Salam
Subject: Theres a difference though Salam
Message:
between having those experiences and having them without a body/brain.
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Date: Sun, Aug 20, 2000 at 17:30:04 (GMT)
From: Salam
Email: None
To: ham
Subject: Theres a difference though Salam
Message:
Your reply is vague. I do understand what experiences you are refereing to.
What I said is specific and can not be seperate. I do not know if
one can exist as pure conscious only, neither I can comment
why the consious needs to occupy a body. I can say though
that there is an element of learnig. For some reason
the conscious needs to learn and evolve, why?
Does that also imply that the conscious is incomplete, which
can also lead to allyways such as, are there being who
are more evolved than others, an edgy topic.
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Date: Sun, Aug 20, 2000 at 18:12:56 (GMT)
From: hamzen
Email: None
To: Salam
Subject: Theres a difference though Salam
Message:
Your reply is vague. I do understand what experiences you are refereing to.
I was making the point because I've known people who think that those experiences prove some other seperate reality, as premies who post here who have had experiences at that level quite often do, my reply wasn't specifically aimed at you salam
What I said is specific and can not be seperate. I do not know if
one can exist as pure conscious only, neither I can comment
why the consious needs to occupy a body.
Now you are talking as though the conscious is a seperate reality, and why occupy? as though it's seperate from material reality?
I can say though
that there is an element of learnig. For some reason
the conscious needs to learn and evolve, why?
Surely that's a definition of evolution, otherwise all life tends towasrd entropy.
Does that also imply that the conscious is incomplete, which
can also lead to allyways such as, are there being who
are more evolved than others, an edgy topic.
This is where I was as a premie, but afterwards I relized it just meant my focus had been more in that direction, so obviously I would be more aware of the possibilities, but I also found that people who were less aware in those areas were more aware in other areas, ie social skills, streetwiseness etc, suspicion of gurus etc, so I don't think that anyone is more evolved than others in a general sense, just different skills/interests.
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Date: Sun, Aug 20, 2000 at 18:32:17 (GMT)
From: Salam
Email: None
To: hamzen
Subject: Theres a difference though Salam
Message:
Now you are talking as though the conscious is a seperate reality, and why occupy? as though it's seperate from material reality?

Good point, got me by the balls. As I said I am a bit rusty
on this subject, because I have not persued it for a while.
I would say the word 'occupy' is not the right thing.
But I do not know how to describe something that is indestructible charing the same space with another that is temporary.

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Date: Sun, Aug 20, 2000 at 22:23:06 (GMT)
From: ham
Email: None
To: Salam
Subject: Theres a difference though Salam
Message:
How do you know it's indestructible Salam, not having a pop, just intrigued where people come to these conclusions?

The problem with this stuff is that those experiences are rooted in severe time and space distortions but most of us don't realize that any drug that works on our awareness, apart from alcohol works by hitting receptor sites that are already in the brain. Those receptor sites are there because ALL those drugs are part of out system. (Found out the other day that even nicotine is in our system!)

But dmt which makes lsd look like kiddies choc ices is intimately linked with the key nervous system chemikal serotonin (which is VERY simialar to ecstacy), dmt produces feelings of timelessness, pure light, quite often bliss states etc etc. Problem is it's early days in research into this stuff, so frustrating.
Opiates, amphetamines, ecstacy related serotonin, mescalin related melatonin, cannabinoids, the list is endless, pretty much are all swimming around our bodiues. What a bunch of junkies we all are.

But because of our lack of knowledge about these drugs in our systems, if we have trigger experiences through bio-feedback which is all meditation is, and have those experiences, we are unlikely to acknowledge that they could be drug related but come to believe they come from somewhere else, because we have no framework for dealing with them.

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Date: Mon, Aug 21, 2000 at 04:17:37 (GMT)
From: Salam
Email: None
To: ham
Subject: Theres a difference though Salam
Message:
How do you know it's indestructible

Again you go me by the balls. I do not. I only had an out of
body expereince while I am in the 'state' of being alive,i.e. my body still functions, I do not know what will happen when I die.

Strange enough though, I do recal things and people before I was born, in past life times, especially on female person that I feel in love 500-600 years ago in north of Spain, When I met her
in this life, something strange happened to me, as if I just continued were ever I left. I have such a stronge connection
with the person that I can tell at anytime what she is 'feeling',
the process invloved is like making a phone call and opening
a 'channel' to communicate.

Note that the induction of hallucegenic drugs is not an issue,
the physical state of the body at any time to be able to
have such an expereience is.

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Date: Tues, Aug 22, 2000 at 19:47:50 (GMT)
From: hamzen
Email: None
To: Salam
Subject: The drugs are in us naturally not taken
Message:
Whenever those experiencees are examined closely, in all the instances I've read about there are pieces of information taken in and digested unconsciously and weaved upon, usually because there are unresolved personal issues that need outletting.

The best case I read up on involved information that had been picked up while someone had just been flicking through a book, lots of information taken in in less than 30 seconds, that was then expanded upon. I would love re-incarnation to be true, but the research I've seen points to other issues.

Re the drugs, they are all produced in us naturally whether someone takes them in or not. Drugs taken externally can only work because of the receptor sites they hit BECAUSE those receptor sites are there naturally. You're a junkie whether you never take anything or not, and these naturally produced drugs are core to consciousness and ANY mood alteration.
Again I wish this wasn't the fact, it would be great if not, but....

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Date: Sun, Aug 20, 2000 at 17:49:22 (GMT)
From: Elaine
Email: None
To: Salam
Subject: Evolved
Message:
S,
How about beings that just 'know' alittle more. You may be more 'evolved' than me - Someone else may be more 'evloved' than both of us. They may have experienced more or different things thus 'know' more.Learned their lessons better even.

I see no reason for it to be an 'edgy topic' necessarily.

That seemed to me to imply 'ego'. Did I read it wrong?

Elaine

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Date: Sun, Aug 20, 2000 at 18:36:09 (GMT)
From: Salam
Email: None
To: Elaine
Subject: Evolved
Message:
Well I was refereing to the fact that someone, say gm, walks in
and say: You see I told you so, I am the perfect master and I have
realised the whole thing(wahtever it is), so now you should bow
and kiss my feet.

By the way, did not you know I was egoless!!

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Date: Sun, Aug 20, 2000 at 23:33:11 (GMT)
From: Elaine
Email: None
To: Salam
Subject: Evolved
Message:
I'm getting a sense.
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Date: Sun, Aug 20, 2000 at 17:05:43 (GMT)
From: Elaine
Email: None
To: ham
Subject: ham,can you explain? nt
Message:
Can you explain?
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Date: Sun, Aug 20, 2000 at 17:18:37 (GMT)
From: ham
Email: None
To: Elaine
Subject: ham,can you explain?
Message:
I've never heard about these experiences even in the wildest literature where there hasn't been a connection to the brain, never some seperate reality.

If there is some extra connective thread reckon it has to be by accessing the quantum level, which is a very circular loop.
I too have had, not out of body experiences but very accurate readings of what others are feeling/thinking (so it appeared when double checking with them) at a distance.

If these are accurate, and that's a massive IF, came to the conclusion that access to quantum levels must be happening, which would explain Sheldrakes morphogenetic fields theory.

What a shame that we will have to wait a while for research to be forthcoming on this one.

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Date: Sun, Aug 20, 2000 at 17:39:51 (GMT)
From: Elaine
Email: None
To: ham
Subject: ham,can you explain?
Message:
I have a tape of Sheldrake's - will have to take a walk and put it in my walkman.
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Date: Sun, Aug 20, 2000 at 16:52:58 (GMT)
From: Elaine
Email: None
To: Salam
Subject: Salam
Message:
S,
I have also had OBE. And am starting to believe what you said - that this is a fairy tale that our consciousness merges into 'Whatever' one day.
I have read alot from authors I respect that we will always be 'us'.
Or at least this 'merging' is like a trillion-million years away - doesn't concern me anymore.

Elaine

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Date: Sun, Aug 20, 2000 at 17:36:48 (GMT)
From: Salam
Email: None
To: Elaine
Subject: Salam
Message:
Am a down to earth person. I find, that it will be better to feed
a hungry person than send him into his subconscious. There is
no point in being all grovey and elightened (shroomi)when the person
sitting next to you is crying for help.
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Date: Sun, Aug 20, 2000 at 17:42:55 (GMT)
From: Elaine
Email: None
To: Salam
Subject: Salam
Message:
I don't know exactly how that spun off of my post - but regardless, I agree. :)

Elaine

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Date: Sun, Aug 20, 2000 at 13:08:31 (GMT)
From: St Philip of the light
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: got the bigK when I was 19. 26 years ago.
Message:
Still don't have my permanent LSD trip :)
No, I'm off the drugs now. Just a few beers now and then.
I'm a computer game addict now. 'TOTALLY DEVOTED'.
Don't you guys just love that word. DEVOTION DEVOTION :)

Stopped doing the M thing long ago. Still sort of meditate.
Meditate to find 'ME'.

'LORD, GOD, GURUS'.....yeah well, I don't know any more.
It's probably just one big fairy tail. BUT THEN AGAIN.....
ohhhhh Might 'JUST' be 'THE LORD' testing his play things out.
NO SUR...I ain't gonna think about all that sort of
shit no more.

I'm just ME. And that's what I'm DEVOTED to now.
ME ME ME ME ME ME ME ME.

I only found this site tonight and this is the first time
I have looked on the net for anything on M. I found the
following on the Grapevine here....

>The news of his mistresses and drug and alcohol use and his >denials of the past claims to be our lord also seem to make them >catch thier breath.
YEAH.....ya right, did make me catch my breath.
So this is true is it. Where can I find out more about this.

It was quite a surprise to find a site like this.
I was never expecting it. Way to COOL.
cheers all

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Date: Mon, Aug 21, 2000 at 05:16:20 (GMT)
From: Jerry
Email: None
To: St Philip of the light
Subject: Computer games (ot)
Message:
I'm a computer game addict now. 'TOTALLY DEVOTED'

Whatcha been playing lately? I'm trying to get into this game called Deus Ex, but am having a little trouble so far. Ever hear of it?

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Date: Mon, Aug 21, 2000 at 11:27:41 (GMT)
From: St Phil OLT
Email: None
To: Jerry
Subject: Computer games (ot)
Message:
>Deus Ex, but am having a little trouble so far.

Yeah, what trouble ya been haven.

I'll be check'n out the demo. Sounds like it might
be a good one from what I've heard.

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Date: Mon, Aug 21, 2000 at 14:04:20 (GMT)
From: Jerry
Email: None
To: St Phil OLT
Subject: Computer games (ot)
Message:
Just trouble getting into it. It hasn't really grabbed me yet. When a game does that, I'm gone, completely captivated, totally in my element. I know, I should grow up, but fuck that. I'll take the fun where I can find it. Deus Ex is supposed to be the best game out there, today, along with Diablo 2, which I haven't played, yet. One game I find very charming is Rollercoaster Tycoon, where you build your own amusement park and design your own rollercoasters. Fun game.

Just thought I'd ask what games you were playing, since I'm a bit of a gamer, myself. To be honest, I prefer the Sony Playstation. The graphics might not be as good, but the gameplay is, the controls are better designed, and you know the friggin' thing is going to work. Not always so with a PC game.

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Date: Tues, Aug 22, 2000 at 10:20:06 (GMT)
From: St Phil otl
Email: None
To: Jerry
Subject: Computer games (ot)
Message:
I'm into almost every sort of PC Game.
Yes..Even Submarine sims :)
>and you know the friggin' thing is going to work. Not always so >with a PC game.
Yeah, Know what you mean. Inperfect world :)

Sounds like Deus Ex might be a bit like Soldier of Fortune.
Got board very quickly with that one.

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Date: Tues, Aug 22, 2000 at 16:54:43 (GMT)
From: Jerry
Email: None
To: St Phil otl
Subject: Computer games (ot)
Message:
I haven't played Soldier Of Fortune. I think that one's a straight FPS. Deus Ex is also first person, but it's RPG, with a lot of emphasis placed on stealth, less on action. There's a deep story line, and a lot of interaction with NPCs, which I don't think is true of SOF. Be forewarned. Deus Ex is a hardware hog. You should have at least a Pentium 400, with a good accelerator, 128MB Ram, and a good size hard drive. The game takes up about 1GB. Can you believe that? Unbelievable. It's the game industry that's really driving the hardware as fast as it's going.

But the game I recommend most for people is Rollercoaster Tycoon. It's like SimCity, only more fun, and you don't need more than a Pentium 133 to play it. Here's a link to a playable demo.

Rollercoaster Tycoon Demo It's about 18MB in size. Hope you like it if you decide to download it.

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Date: Sun, Aug 20, 2000 at 20:48:26 (GMT)
From: a regular
Email: None
To: St Philip of the light
Subject: got the bigK when I was 19. 26 years ago.
Message:
Saint P-feel free to tell all your friends about EPO as well!
And encourage them to tell their friends as well!
Welcome aboard!
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Date: Sun, Aug 20, 2000 at 13:32:13 (GMT)
From: hamzen
Email: None
To: St Philip of the light
Subject: Welcomen sunshine
Message:
The main site has TONS of details about mr prem little willy & his various shenanigans, and there is also 3 years plus archives of all the forum discussions.

Have a good one exploring, guaranteed, especially if you haven't been able to verbalize your doubts socially, that it will be more liberating than the whole of your time with gm.

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Date: Sun, Aug 20, 2000 at 13:29:39 (GMT)
From: SB
Email: None
To: St Philip of the light
Subject: got the bigK when I was 19. 26 years ago.
Message:
Welcome to 'hell'!

Yes, is very refreshing for some of us having found this site. It helped me put Mahariachi were he belongs: OUT OF MY LIFE!

If you click on top, Elan Vital Papers, you'll get to one of mahariachi's ex-instructor/mahatmas, Jean-Michel. He is from France. He has a excellent informative site, and there are others too.

I left last year, after 25 years, and it feels great to be free. The freedom mahariachi talks about is not real freedom. His freedom is fake! Are there many premies where you are from?

Glad to hear that another person gained freedom from the cult! Yes, it's about you. Life is about you. And PC games are fun! Well, whatever melts your butter, whatever you chose to do with your time is good. ;)

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Date: Mon, Aug 21, 2000 at 12:00:18 (GMT)
From: st Phil otl
Email: None
To: SB
Subject: Are there many premies where you are from?
Message:
>Are there many premies where you are from?

No idea...don't associate with them :)I'm from Aussie.

>I left last year, after 25 years, and it feels great to be free.

SHIT....long time man. I ain't had nothing to do with Him in
16 years or so. At that time he was 'GOD Lord of the universe'.

I just sort of wandered off and started to live 'MY OWN LIFE'
again and stoped thinking about him.
I am yet to find out what the story is with him now. I have
checked out a fair bit at this site so far,it been very interesting...looking forward to finding out all the nitty
gritty.

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Date: Mon, Aug 21, 2000 at 21:56:39 (GMT)
From: SB
Email: None
To: st Phil otl
Subject: Are there many premies where you are from?
Message:
Have fun. He had it with us. He made a fool of ourselves, the asshole!!

Glad that you are visiting this site. If you have any contacts with premies, invite them to read the truth about Mr Lard in this site.

I'm glad also that you left for many years, unlike some of us who were stupid enough to 'try harder', like K was real. What a joke!!

Yes, indeed, life is much better without Lard!

;)

SB

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Date: Sun, Aug 20, 2000 at 13:12:56 (GMT)
From: buzz
Email: None
To: St Philip of the light
Subject: got the bigK when I was 19. 26 years ago.
Message:
welcome home st philip of the light,play you at
quake 3 sometime.

cheers
buzz

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Date: Mon, Aug 21, 2000 at 11:39:01 (GMT)
From: st Phil otl
Email: None
To: buzz
Subject: got the bigK when I was 19. 26 years ago.
Message:
Yeah, thanks buzz.
Don't play online anymore though, quite happy playing solo.
HEY Its all about 'ME' remember :)
Did'nt get quake 3. Was disapointed with Quake2 buy the
end of it. Thought the orig Quake was a better game myself.

I got Unreal Tournament instead though.

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Date: Mon, Aug 21, 2000 at 17:28:13 (GMT)
From: Selene
Email: None
To: st Phil otl
Subject: hey that's my line
Message:
and I'm not you.
I hate computer games. I have to work with the damned things enough as it is.
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Date: Sun, Aug 20, 2000 at 13:30:28 (GMT)
From: SB
Email: None
To: buzz
Subject: got the bigK when I was 19. 26 years ago.
Message:
What game is that, Buzz? Quake?
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Date: Sun, Aug 20, 2000 at 14:22:42 (GMT)
From: buzz
Email: None
To: SB
Subject: got the bigK when I was 19. 26 years ago.
Message:
computer game sb.only kids can play
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Date: Sun, Aug 20, 2000 at 16:31:16 (GMT)
From: sb
Email: None
To: buzz
Subject: got the bigK when I was 19. 26 years ago.
Message:
What u mean? I play them... :0
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Date: Sun, Aug 20, 2000 at 16:44:09 (GMT)
From: Salam
Email: None
To: sb
Subject: Now now sb.Don't you go be bashin buzz head,
Message:
buzz is only a baby. Anyway Quake is a game where you have to
pretened you are a duck, so you go quake, know what I mean,
ducks quake. Not nice for ladies to do that. wot!!
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Date: Sun, Aug 20, 2000 at 17:24:50 (GMT)
From: hamzen
Email: None
To: Salam
Subject: Now now sb.Don't you go be bashin buzz head,
Message:
I thought a quake describes the female orgasm exactly!
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Date: Sun, Aug 20, 2000 at 18:42:53 (GMT)
From: Salam
Email: None
To: hamzen
Subject: Or a Russian sub exploding.
Message:
Bad joke. Poor sailors, turned into sardine.
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Date: Sun, Aug 20, 2000 at 09:39:25 (GMT)
From: St.Peter
Email: None
To: absolutely no one
Subject: Sat.Nite leave
Message:
I , a sargaent on leave,
have,
personally
come back from the dead.
To tell you all.
that I am having a
window pane acid party
and we can
get to the bottom
/ top / of this
for once
and for all
all for one and one for all
bennyverily hills will be there...he's stuck and covered in mud.
constructing stuckinmud.com under and over..or is it up and over?
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Date: Sun, Aug 20, 2000 at 16:46:30 (GMT)
From: Salam
Email: None
To: St.Peter
Subject: Whatever it is, I hope it's good!!!??..nt
Message:
nm
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Date: Sun, Aug 20, 2000 at 09:20:25 (GMT)
From: buzz
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: shri hans
Message:
sorry to bring this up again but i find it most importanti went to the ex satsangi support group and posted a question regarding sawan singh having initiated hans and it seems as definate as can be without actually witnessing it.there are some interesting replies if anyone is interested just go to the site.its posted under shri hans advait mat
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Date: Sun, Aug 20, 2000 at 10:17:52 (GMT)
From: Anon
Email: None
To: buzz
Subject: Here is what they say...
Message:
...over at http://clubs.yahoo.com/clubs/exsatsangisupportgroup

(I thought it was worth cutting and pasting the following since it is also clearly topical here)

From discussion going on at exsatsangisupportgroup:

'An initiate of Baba Sawan Singh, Bhagwan Singh Giani, secretary of Sant Kirpal Singh, told me that the father of Maharaji was indeed an initiate of Baba Sawan Singh.
Baba Sawan Singh died in 1948. By following the history of Divine Light Mission, you may be able to retrace the dates. I am sorry that I have no further details to offer, other then that the same story of the DLM/Sawan Singh connection was in general circulation among the followers of Kirpal Singh. Kirpal Singh had confirmed this on various occasions when questioned.

By the way, I took so-called 'knowledge' in Vancouver BC in early 1972 by a visiting so-called 'Mahatma'. I thought perhaps it was the same thing as initiation by Sant Kirpal Singh, without the prerequisites (strict veg diet, etc.). I was not quite seventeen at the time and as usual I was seeking the easy way.

The rhetoric was similar and with the 'knowledge' session I understood that some of the technique is very similar to that of the line of Sant Kirpal Singh. However, I recall being put off by the arrogance of the so-called mahatma, the eye pressing technique, the tongue in the back of the throat business, and the general vibe. My own interest ended with that event, which, in fact, convinced me to get initiated by Sant Kirpal Singh.

Buzz,
A couple of years ago I met, and spent about six months studying with, a spiritual teacher here in Santa Barbara by the name of Justin Gold. Although he did not talk much, even to his own group, about his spiritual background, he did tell me that his teacher was a South American man named Raul Rente ('Raya') who worked with a fairly obscure Sufi sect. His teacher was part, he says, of a group of people being trained by Sawan Singh for spiritual service. The group consisted of Kirpal Singh, Shri Hans ji, George Gurdgieff, Raul Rente, and one more who I can't recall (possible a Beas master?).Mr. Gold spent time with Prem Pal Rayat here in the US, and adopted some few things from him, including the 'mahatma' hierarchy, in that he has five 'teachers' who work more directly with the students. There are about sixty people in the group, and they are currently in exodus from this area to northern California, where they have bought some land.
Mr. Gold's main teaching revolves around the idea that we are not 'one thing' but many selves (a la Hesse's 'Steppenwulf'). He has developed unique 'tools' to develop this insight.
I had never before heard that Gurdgieff was involved with Sawan Singh, though I had heard from T.S. Khanna and others that Shri Hans Ji was, though he never admitted to it himself apparently, which says allot.
Aside from the tongue thing and the pressing of the eyeballs, the devotional aspects ('God in Human Form') were carried to an extreme by Prem Pal, as you must know.
I remember seeing the people lined up to kiss his feet while he chewed gum. Made me wanna barf. '

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Date: Sun, Aug 20, 2000 at 20:59:24 (GMT)
From: la-ex
Email: None
To: Anon
Subject: Here is what they say...
Message:
Anon-interesting that you knew justin gold.I knew him in Wash. DC in the late 70's, when he was a rank and file premie.He was into m and k, and had a certain respect from the premies, but was also a bit removed from the community.He and a lot of premies came into some major disagreements in the 70's when people around m demanded a lot of money from the communities for m's aston martin.They wanted to buy him the stupid car for his birthday, while justin and a bunch of other premies said that the best celebration of m's birthday would be to spend it all day in s,s &m...
He 's a very interesting guy-I heard that he went to college and was rommates with the guy who later became 'bubba free john', in upstate NY, and that also he was regarded as one of the 5 best poker players in NY state...(not sure who gave him that title, or how they decided that, but that was the rumour)
He also had a farm in Oregon before all that doing a Guirdjieff thing of some sorts...
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Date: Sat, Aug 19, 2000 at 23:43:25 (GMT)
From: Anon
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: Who is Maharaji's 'Stepmother'?
Message:
On www.maharaji.org, in the credits section, Maharaji dedicates his website to various people including his mother and ...'my Stepmother'.

Does anyone know who this is/was? Did his Shri Hans leave Mata Ji and remarry or what??

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Date: Mon, Aug 21, 2000 at 04:12:41 (GMT)
From: Knowall
Email: None
To: Anon
Subject: Who is Maharaji's 'Stepmother'?
Message:
When I was in India many, many years ago at a Hans Jyanti event a little old lady in a white sari was pointed out to me as Hans first wife. As she bore him no sons she was 'put on the back burner' so to speak. Hans, the rogue married Mata Ji and the rest is history....
I didn't realise M had a sister. Any truth in this?

Almost Knows it all

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Date: Mon, Aug 21, 2000 at 21:55:05 (GMT)
From: Anon
Email: None
To: Knowall
Subject: So Shri Hans wanted a son that badly?
Message:
Thanks for the responses...The idea that Shri Hans left his first wife because she bore him no son suggests that he was very concerned with keeping the business within the family. I guess he wanted a son for that job. Interesting that the notion of a lady Satguru was not acceptible.
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Date: Sun, Aug 20, 2000 at 00:19:07 (GMT)
From: buzz
Email: None
To: Anon
Subject: Who is Maharaji's 'Stepmother'?
Message:
hans was married before mataji .thats all i know.
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Date: Sun, Aug 20, 2000 at 03:16:46 (GMT)
From: Joey
Email: None
To: Anon
Subject: Who is Maharaji's 'Stepmother'?
Message:
buzz is right, Anon.

Hans wanted a son - his first wife never delivered the goods, so he got himself a second wife to start his 'Holy Family' with.

Apparently though, growing up, little Santji was quite fond of his stepmother and also his one (or two?) stepsisters. When she died some five or six years ago, he attended the funeral and I can remember him speaking about her at an event in North America with what seemed to be considerable affection.

In contrast m didn't attend Mataji's funeral. He did take out an ad in an Indian paper which stated something to the effect, 'We mourn the loss of Shri Mataji, wife of our beloved Satguru Shri Hans Ji Maharaj blah blah blah...' but there was absolutely NO mention in it of Mataji being his own mother.

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Date: Sun, Aug 20, 2000 at 03:12:47 (GMT)
From: bill
Email: None
To: buzz
Subject: Who is Maharaji's 'Stepmother'?
Message:
His stepmom(?) died a couple years after his mom died.
She actually wasnt his stepmom at all. It is ANOTHER elan lie.
He shunned his own mom for 18 years till she died and having learned a little something from that, when his fathers first wife was sick, he was nearby and when she died he said he was waiting for the greif to hit but it didnt.
She didnt mean enough to him. And he admitted it on the video.
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Date: Sun, Aug 20, 2000 at 03:19:01 (GMT)
From: Joey
Email: None
To: bill
Subject: oh bill beeeeee......
Message:
She actually wasnt his stepmom at all. It is ANOTHER elan lie.

Then what was she??

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Date: Sun, Aug 20, 2000 at 03:38:38 (GMT)
From: bee beee
Email: None
To: Joey
Subject: oh bill beeeeee......
Message:
Good question, maybe there is no term for your fathers first wife.
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Date: Sun, Aug 20, 2000 at 03:47:34 (GMT)
From: bill
Email: None
To: bee beee
Subject: oh
Message:
I did hear the rumours of him having a half sister.
However, I never did hear that it was from king rawats first wife. Could have been from any 'devotee'.
published materials claimed his first wife had no children.
Of course they do have a history (and recent history) of lying for no good reason.
I have the publication that states....I think it is the millenium *and it is divine* issue. States the story of divine mata ji no 2.
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Date: Sat, Aug 19, 2000 at 19:37:52 (GMT)
From: moldy warp
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: ???premielalaland
Message:
Found this on the totally humourless 'enjoylife...'wit (?) and (?) wisdom:
Mencius: Ethics
'Never has a man who has bent himself
been able to make others straight'
WOOPS just infringed their precious copyright!?*&
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Date: Sat, Aug 19, 2000 at 15:44:20 (GMT)
From: Helen
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: Secret message for Joe W.
Message:
Hey Joe remember that argument we had a while back. Well, you were right and I was wrong. The famous radio personality in question is a dangerous demagogue who parcels out human feeling only to those who agree with her point of view. Thus she has sold out her humanity to ideas.

What brought about this change of heart? Not sure....I think I wanted something solid to believe in and my 'spirituality' took a more traditional turn. But you know how life has a way of buffeting one about in a stormy sea, stirring up questions. After reading Octavia Butler's books for awhile and the recent shake-ups in my personal life, I can see Dr. Laura is barking up the wrong tree. Her 'tree' is not one that I wish to stand near, even from a distance, any longer as there is too much pee on it, from those filled with hate who want to mark their territory along with her.

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Date: Sat, Aug 19, 2000 at 17:20:30 (GMT)
From: Bobby
Email: None
To: Helen
Subject: Secret message for Joe W.
Message:
Hi Helen,

Always thought that Dr. Laura was curious in a Judge Judy kinda way. However, she wasn't curious enough for me to listen for more than the minute it took just to get her drift.

Wishing you happiness and good times,

Bobby

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Date: Sat, Aug 19, 2000 at 17:10:21 (GMT)
From: Joe
Email: None
To: Helen
Subject: Hi Helen...
Message:
Great to hear, and obviously I agree. I haven't listened to Dr. Laura for awhile, not since that week-long marathon a few months ago. I understand she is really upset at all the people complaining about her because she is losing advertisers in droves. I heard that a few days ago she started out her show with a rambling dialogue claiming that she was being unfairly attacked. I really feel sorry for her.

By the way, according to an article I read today, she is promoting a book on her website that says that gays can be 'cured' from their 'deviant biological error.' Pretty amazing.

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Date: Sat, Aug 19, 2000 at 16:01:17 (GMT)
From: Katie
Email: None
To: Helen
Subject: Secret message for Joe W.
Message:
Hi Helen -
Butting in on your 'secret' thread here :).

I am VERY glad to hear about your change of heart concerning Dr. Laura. I think she's dangerous too. Yes, some of the things she advocates are good or right (IMHO, anyway), but isn't that the case with cult leaders like Maharaji as well? They mix good ideas with bad beliefs and people who are attracted to the good ideas often end up believing the bad things as well.

Plus she is just plain RUDE, as well as being hateful.

BTW, loved your pee tree analogy!

Love,
Katie

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Date: Sun, Aug 20, 2000 at 16:10:46 (GMT)
From: Helen
Email: None
To: Katie,Joe, Bobby
Subject: The power of literature to change hearts
Message:
I think Octavia Butler's book 'The Parable of the Talents' helped me work all this out.Oh the power of literature! In it, the U.S. is in such upheaval (year: 2030) and a new Presdient is elected whose goal is to restore 'Christian America.' People have been living in such chaos and are struggling just to survive so they welcome the new President's promises to restore law and order and unity to the country. All these horrible things are done to anyone who is not a Christian, anyone who is Unitarian or lesbian or different in some way. It made me think about how frightening it is when someone in a leadership position is wedded to a literal absolutist interpretation of scripture (as Dr. Laura is). It clouds her humanity. Things like saying gays can be rehabilitated through therapy so they can become 'normal' and therefore no longer sinners in God's eyes is as twisted as this twisted leader in this sci-fi book!

Sci fi provides some powerful allegories! I rememebr teaching Brave New World and my high school students' minds exploded with all the issues it brought up.

Anyway I have seen the light about Dr. Laura. She's kinda like a corrupt guru--she has some good ideas but mixed in with them is alot of creepy twisted stuff that does make her danegrous as Katie said. I think she has a strong attraction for people like me raised in the 'anything goes' era who now are trying to define a moral code for themselves. Problem is, there's something really immoral about what she is doing so, I guess I outgrew her. Bobby, sounds like you got the point in her message alot faster than I did!

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Date: Sun, Aug 20, 2000 at 19:24:14 (GMT)
From: Bobby
Email: None
To: Helen
Subject: dream nature
Message:
you're touching on some points important to me here Helen.

'the power of literature'.

I'm now pretty much convinced that I'm living in a dream. . Really. I've spent much of my life looking for certainty 'out there' or 'out here', looking for a way, looking for metaphor to describe the 'way it is'.

My near death and visions of 30 years ago have always been the lynchpin of my quest. They've abided in my awareness and I've sought to come to terms with them. A genuine and powerful quality of these experiences has been to give me a reference point for dream/reality. My NDE was more real than anything I've ever experienced and my everyday reality I experience as dreamlike.

So literature provides constructs for dream/realities. It seems obvious to me that we do the same with our everyday semantics. We create virtual worlds out of words, ideas, semantic constructs. Even our physics is a part of that.

It's good to tap into the deep seatings of our internal constructs that go into what we call our personalities. Then we can understand how we operate and further take steps to transform these constructs into the best we can be.

The base for me is love and compassion. I've found no other method that can come close to healing the sufferings of my life and my hope to help the sufferings in the lives of others.

And then there's the 'emptiness'. That's an abiding meditation. The dream-like qualities of all experience come into this, as well as the impermanence of it all. What works in one context falls apart in the next. No thing stands by itself as an absolute, everything is dependent on context and interrelationship.

At a certain point love/compassion and emptiness come together. Love and Truth inseparable. Very beautiful and spacious. Very important as ground of Being, as a basis of one's life.

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Date: Tues, Aug 22, 2000 at 01:34:41 (GMT)
From: Helen
Email: None
To: Bobby
Subject: wolf guardian angel visitations
Message:
Hi Bobby,
Great post. You are a good writer (I have said that before, no?) I especially liked what you said about understanding the constructs of our own personalities so we can peel away the layers to become the best people we can be. I don't know about it all being a dream...whose dream is it? But I do know what you mean at the same time and I know your experiences are the real deal for you.

I have often been touched by literature in a way that tears away some existing construct in my head. I know I have shared this before but Walker Percy's 'The Second Coming' did that for me in a big way. Maybe this is a working definition of grace? This idea of some traumatic or transformative experience that peels away at the ordinary and reveals a glimpse of the extraordinary.

I had an experience with my wolfie dog Logan who died two years ago. He came and 'visited' me around the end of July and it was the day of his death (July 23). I didn't remember it on the conscious level but must have on the subconscious level. Either that or he is my guardian angel! Whatever the experience was, it was like he was right there in the room with me. I 'felt' him watching me as I was doing the dishes and then I felt him in the room with me upstairs and all these memories of him, his smell, his eyes, his presence, came flooding back to me vividly. Whatever caused the experience it was a gift. And my brother in law had a similar Logan experience on the same day!

We are all fine here at the Clark house. Hope you are good too.
Helen

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Date: Sun, Aug 20, 2000 at 16:17:56 (GMT)
From: Helen
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: power of lit-addendum
Message:
I guess the thought of being persecuted for being a Unitarian hit me where it hurt. Joe, I am sorry I didn't have more empathy for your position, as a gay person, for why Dr. laura is so dangerous.
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Date: Sat, Aug 19, 2000 at 12:47:04 (GMT)
From: JTF
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: It's a wonderful day for a Mind-Fuck !!!
Message:
Some old-timers may think it to be Guru Puja or Holi but for my money, I'd have to say Hans Jayanti was rawat's best day for manipulation.

For those who don't know Hans Jayanti was billed as a celebration of the birthday or crokeday of rawat's old man Hans-who ran a small cult scam of his own in India.

Anyway, rawat would come out and spend quite a bit of time telling us how he felt about his guru maharaj ji. He would then talk about how grateful he was for the K and it's giver(Hans).

Is it any wonder then that at the end of one of these manipulative sessions, premies would be heard saying 'how humble rawat was' and how they wish and wanted to feel the same way about their guru maharaj ji-who coincidentally was rawat himself.

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Date: Sat, Aug 19, 2000 at 12:23:05 (GMT)
From: Ebay Alert
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: Penthouse 74 Article
Message:
Couple of Ebay things up for grabs. This Penthouse article:
http://cgi.ebay.com/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=413785429

and 'Who is Guru M'

These Items make wonderful bathroom reading material. Keep them on the top of the toilet and read a few paragraphs whilst meditating on the throne. The same throne used by the Lord of the Universe (except of course, his is gold). Still, his shit stinks like the rest of ours, maybe more so, with all that curry and chicken vindaloo residing in his colon.

This way if you get sick whilst reading the articles, it is not that far to the porcelein god.

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Date: Sat, Aug 19, 2000 at 17:13:00 (GMT)
From: Bobby
Email: None
To: Ebay Alert
Subject: Penthouse 74 Article
Message:
The article is written by Kevin Kelly, the guy that was assaulted by Fakiranand and is mostly about the pie-throwing incident and subsequent incidents from his perspective.

Funny, I have a copy of this article and read it just last week.

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Date: Sat, Aug 19, 2000 at 17:55:08 (GMT)
From: Monmot
Email: None
To: Bobby
Subject: Penthouse 74 Article
Message:
Bobby:

Wasn't Pat Halley (sp?) the guy who was attacked by Fakiranand? Or was there another attack?

Thanks

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Date: Sat, Aug 19, 2000 at 18:17:52 (GMT)
From: Bobby
Email: None
To: Monmot
Subject: Penthouse 74 Article
Message:
I'm sorry, yes. The article is about Pat Halley and written by Ken Kelley. Pat Halley was a journalist who wrote for Detroit's Fifth Estate, an underground newspaper.
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Date: Sat, Aug 19, 2000 at 18:21:41 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Bobby
Subject: Kevin Kelly edited The Whole Earth Catalogue (nt)
Message:
gggggg
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Date: Sat, Aug 19, 2000 at 18:28:53 (GMT)
From: Bobby
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Kevin Kelly edited The Whole Earth Catalogue (nt)
Message:
That's correct. One of the editions.
He also wrote (I think) the Whole Earth production Fringes of Reason.
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Date: Sat, Aug 19, 2000 at 18:34:45 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Bobby
Subject: Kevin Kelly edited The Whole Earth Catalogue (nt)
Message:
Yes, he did. I loved that book.
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Date: Sat, Aug 19, 2000 at 18:19:40 (GMT)
From: Monmot
Email: None
To: Bobby
Subject: Thanks - Thought My Memory Was Going :-) (nt)
Message:
mm
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Date: Sat, Aug 19, 2000 at 17:35:29 (GMT)
From: la-ex
Email: None
To: Bobby
Subject: Penthouse 74 Article
Message:
Bobby-can you get the article onto this site?
Sounds like it might be good for JM's site...
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Date: Sat, Aug 19, 2000 at 18:26:47 (GMT)
From: Bobby
Email: None
To: la-ex
Subject: Penthouse 74 Article
Message:
Personally, I don't like a lot of the spin on this ex-premie forum and don't want to further the dirt. Actually I don't agree with a lot of the gist of the article itself.

On the otherhand I do believe in bringing to light relevant information. I'd be happy to share the article with some individuals.

I'll have to think of it further.

The magazine is of course available on ebay and is not my copy.

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Date: Sat, Aug 19, 2000 at 16:19:03 (GMT)
From: Jerry
Email: None
To: Ebay Alert
Subject: I remember that
Message:
There's an artist's rendition of Maharaji with sweat pouring down his face, and I beleve a swastika drawn over it; I can't remember exactly. It was a very unflattering picture. I wasn't a premie, yet, but a friend of mine who was just gaped at the picture in astonishment. 'I can't believe it! I can't believe it!', he said over and over, 'I thought this was a pretty cool magazine! I can't believe they did this!' Anybody else remember this article? Am I remembering the picture, right? It really painted M as being some kind of evil dictator. It was the first time I'd ever seen M projected in such a light. The funny thing is, instead of thinking Penthouse might be onto something, I assumed they were the evil ones, and it wasn't surprising that champions of carnal delight, such as they were, would paint a man of true spiritual aspirations in this light. Yeah, I was already sinking my teeth into the bait, six years before I became a premie, myself.
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Date: Sat, Aug 19, 2000 at 18:28:10 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Jerry
Subject: What I remember
Message:
It was a nice, sunny early spring Saturday. I was doing my service, all the ashram laundry down at the corner. For some reason, I stopped by Safeway on the way back and causally let my eyes glance by the magazine rack. And there, on the cover of Penthouse, was this lead for the story of the young, fat guru!

Now I was a celibate monk then, don't forget. I very gingerly picked up the magazine and went to the article. I just had to. Really, I had no business even being in the store in the first place. And now? Now I was reading the mind's own dark sacreligious evil utterances about the Lord of the Universe? But I just had to see.

O, Maharaji, forgive me, I just have to look!

So i read the article and for a moment, in between my silent rosary, I remember a strong pang of confusion.

What if these guys are right??

And then I thought about the girls! I looked at the pictures for a moment or two. Oh Lord, I did, yes I did. And then I ran back to the ashram and started to fold.

This was around the time Dave Wener killed himself, I recall.

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Date: Sat, Aug 19, 2000 at 22:35:14 (GMT)
From: Moldy Warp
Email: None
To: Jim and everyone
Subject: Dave Wener
Message:
Just curious. Who was he? What happened to him?? And on a different subject, is U.K. Mole still posting?? I like her/his direct-action mind-set(see Bubblegum stuff).
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Date: Sun, Aug 20, 2000 at 03:55:26 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Moldy Warp
Subject: Dave Wener
Message:
Dave was a friend of mine from before Knowledge. We went to summer camp together. He and another friend, Steve Winbaum, turned me onto the Hamster in the fall of '72. I went to some satsang for a bit, asked Mahatma Parlokanand for Knowledge, gut offended when he said more satsang and stopped going for a few months. Dave meanwhile went to India that year then spent some time afterwards travelling with a Mahatma in the states. That was a very cherished niche to fit into then, travelling with a real live saint.

I got Knowledge that next spring and was already in the ashram in Vancouver when Dave came back to live there after Millenium. This would be the early '74. Dave had become really pious. Lost his teenage carefree nature, the only side of him I'd ever seen, and was now a very hardcore ashramie.

Problem was, though, that Dave started wrestling quite vigorously with his doubts. Maharaji's marriage, the debacle of Millenium ('Most Significant Event in the History of Mankind' - not!) and the Holy Family split were taking their toll. Dave was doubting Maharaji's divinity and hating himself for it.

One day Dave came to see me for some help. His mind was relentless. All those doubts, all that darkness. I did what every good premie would and indeed did do for him (he'd turned to others for help as well): I gave him satsang. 'Leave those doubts behind, Dave! You know as well as I do that it's just the mind stirring up shit because you're leaving it behind! Come on, man, just meditate and don't listen to it.' Typical stuff.

Dave hung himself the next day. Gary Ockendon, then community co-ordinator in Vancouver was called out of satsang to go down and identify the body. Satsang continued, as did arti and meditation that night. We were all more resolved than ever to not let Mr. Mind get us the way he got Dave.

No one ever called Dave's family back in Montreal. It wasn't until I talked with his brother last winter that he gave up thinking that his brother was murdered. That's how in the dark they were. Mind you, I guess depending on how you look at it ....

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Date: Mon, Aug 21, 2000 at 00:15:43 (GMT)
From: Moldy Warp
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Dave Wener
Message:
Thanks for telling me the story. I guess any premie, me included, would have said the same stuff (regurgitated hamster blurb) to anyone feeling what Dave was feeling.The responsibility for Dave's emotional state, and those of all of us with less tragic outcomes, must be laid firmly at the 'lotus' feet. I would like to get the perpretator of so much emotional turmoil to admit culpability. So sorry that happened to you. It could have been any of us.
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Date: Sun, Aug 20, 2000 at 23:44:41 (GMT)
From: Elaine
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Dave Wener,I'm sorry.
Message:
Wow, I'd read intimations to you having a friend that committed suicide.
I'm sorry. How horrible. How close.

Elaine

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Date: Thurs, Aug 24, 2000 at 16:24:07 (GMT)
From: sb
Email: None
To: Elaine
Subject: Dave Wener,I'm sorry.
Message:
Have you tried to commit suicide? I have, more than once. Guruji's trick can drive some people insane and he refuses to take responsibility, even about the fear he inculcated us with. funny, isn't?

Don't forget now to put what I just said in the subject area, in big letters, bold it too. Tell everybody that I tried to kill my poor self. NOT! What drove me and many others to that desperate point? Not loving him as he asked me to love him in order to have 'that' experience droved me nuts. I thought at times that something was wrong with me for not being able to have consistency in my devotion for him. Like he cares. Is all bussiness.

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Date: Sun, Aug 20, 2000 at 19:54:32 (GMT)
From: Lotus Eater
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Dave Wener
Message:
Dear Jim,
After reading your post, I tried to think of something comforting to say. I couldn't. I can imagine only too well the nightmare he was living and can imagine only too easily that the Jim I know from this forum would have been able to get him the help he needed. Sorry to say that, it's not something that can be 'made better', dead is dead. we were brainwashed, ya know! Love Lesley
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Date: Sun, Aug 20, 2000 at 20:00:31 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Lotus Eater
Subject: Dave Wener
Message:
God, thaanks for that, Lesley!

In fact, I'm planning on seeing Dave's family next week. I'll report back when we return.

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Date: Sat, Aug 19, 2000 at 21:50:06 (GMT)
From: SB
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Why did he killed himself?
Message:
Can you explain? He was a premies, I assume.

Thanks.

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Date: Sat, Aug 19, 2000 at 16:58:51 (GMT)
From: Selene
Email: None
To: Jerry
Subject: I remember that too
Message:
I had asked about it ages ago. I think we bought that issue, and I WAS a premie at the time.
Must have blocked the picture out of my mind. The only thing I remember clearly was a paragraph regarding:

Maharaji's family has been in the god business for some time

and went on to trace back to Shri Hans and some other telling info. It made a my doubts surface but of course I just stuffed them away and read some other more interesting articles :)

I do remember it getting to me at the time though, and not necessarily being angry at Penthouse. My capacity for denial astounds me at times.

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Date: Sat, Aug 19, 2000 at 08:24:44 (GMT)
From: Jethro
Email: None
To: John Lilly
Subject: To John Lilly: Re:Chillin nicely
Message:
I just noticed your message down below which said

'In the province of the mind what is believed to be true is true, or becomes true, within limits to be determined experientially and experimentally'
Something like that anyway. It's from a book called The Centre of the Cyclone.


Are you THE John C. Lilly.


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Date: Sat, Aug 19, 2000 at 10:15:50 (GMT)
From: JohnT
Email: None
To: Jethro
Subject: Nope, no such luck. I just posted a quote (nt)
Message:
... and signed it at the bottom. Sorry for any confusion.
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Date: Sat, Aug 19, 2000 at 12:50:55 (GMT)
From: Jethro
Email: None
To: JohnT
Subject: No problem
Message:
I had never heard of him until this morning when I was surfing the net and read about him...and then it clicked where I'd seen the name before.
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