Forum V: Archive
Compiled: Tues, Oct 10, 2000 at 09:50:49 (GMT)
From: Sep 26, 2000 To: Oct 07, 2000 Page: 2 Of: 5


Roger eDrek -:- How can premies justify a 7 million dollar yacht? -:- Tues, Oct 03, 2000 at 01:51:57 (GMT)
__ Janet of Venice -:- How can premies justify a 7 million dollar yacht? -:- Thurs, Oct 05, 2000 at 04:19:22 (GMT)
__ Pauline Premie -:- How can premies justify a 7 million dollar yacht? -:- Tues, Oct 03, 2000 at 21:33:34 (GMT)
__ Know It All -:- Wrist watch collection -:- Tues, Oct 03, 2000 at 18:56:03 (GMT)
__ __ Jean-Michel of Paris -:- about to tell you how he's amassed cheap souvenirs -:- Wed, Oct 04, 2000 at 08:10:32 (GMT)
__ __ i witness -:- Wrist watch collection -:- Wed, Oct 04, 2000 at 03:35:56 (GMT)
__ __ cq -:- Tell it to the IRS (nt) -:- Tues, Oct 03, 2000 at 19:20:18 (GMT)
__ Elaine -:- How can premies justify a 7 million dollar yacht? -:- Tues, Oct 03, 2000 at 13:29:13 (GMT)
__ suchabanana -:- MAHAMANTRA + 4 simple techniques to enlightenment! -:- Tues, Oct 03, 2000 at 10:31:18 (GMT)
__ Buzz -:- How can premies justify a 7 million dollar yacht? -:- Tues, Oct 03, 2000 at 05:53:14 (GMT)
__ suchabanana -:- 7 million dollar yacht (2000 model) lookee, folks! -:- Tues, Oct 03, 2000 at 04:26:37 (GMT)
__ __ suchabanana -:- corrected address page (2000 model) lookee, folks! -:- Tues, Oct 03, 2000 at 04:35:37 (GMT)
__ __ __ Jean-Michel -:- Your link doesn't work !! (nt) -:- Tues, Oct 03, 2000 at 07:59:41 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Janet of Venice -:- Your link doesn't work !! (nt) -:- Tues, Oct 03, 2000 at 10:41:54 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ JM of Paris -:- No problem through a proxy ! -:- Tues, Oct 03, 2000 at 13:30:46 (GMT)
__ steve -:- The wristwatch collection -:- Tues, Oct 03, 2000 at 04:08:48 (GMT)
__ __ Steve -:- If you read the page you'd notice steve... -:- Tues, Oct 03, 2000 at 09:56:18 (GMT)
__ TED Farkel -:- Ya think our lord would give ole TED a ride?(nt) -:- Tues, Oct 03, 2000 at 03:59:33 (GMT)
__ gerry -:- Nice One, Rog, Hey shp, you jerk... -:- Tues, Oct 03, 2000 at 02:16:44 (GMT)

Yves -:- Cult suspected of being gay-unfriendly -:- Mon, Oct 02, 2000 at 18:02:30 (GMT)
__ Joe -:- Cult suspected of being gay-unfriendly -:- Mon, Oct 02, 2000 at 21:00:41 (GMT)
__ __ Is Dennis Murphy -:- Still a Premie ? (NT) -:- Tues, Oct 03, 2000 at 11:29:01 (GMT)
__ __ __ Joe -:- I don't know (NT) -:- Tues, Oct 03, 2000 at 18:28:04 (GMT)
__ PCH -:- Yves: homophobic jerk -:- Mon, Oct 02, 2000 at 18:38:31 (GMT)
__ __ Jim -:- What's so bad about the word 'homophobic' -:- Mon, Oct 02, 2000 at 22:02:50 (GMT)
__ __ __ Scott T. -:- What's so bad about the word 'homophobic' -:- Wed, Oct 04, 2000 at 05:43:12 (GMT)
__ __ __ P-man -:- What's so bad about the word 'homophobic' -:- Tues, Oct 03, 2000 at 14:21:48 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Joe -:- Good Point. -:- Wed, Oct 04, 2000 at 20:21:40 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Scott T. -:- Good Point. -:- Thurs, Oct 05, 2000 at 04:19:27 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Joe -:- The fear and the backlash -:- Thurs, Oct 05, 2000 at 19:15:42 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Scott T. -:- The fear and the backlash -:- Thurs, Oct 05, 2000 at 20:49:19 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Joe -:- Why Clinton Won and Lost -:- Thurs, Oct 05, 2000 at 21:47:57 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Scott T. -:- Why Clinton Won and Lost -:- Fri, Oct 06, 2000 at 06:06:20 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Joe -:- Why Clinton Won and Lost -:- Fri, Oct 06, 2000 at 20:08:49 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Scott T. -:- Addendum -:- Fri, Oct 06, 2000 at 13:55:48 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Joe -:- Addendum -:- Fri, Oct 06, 2000 at 20:24:53 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Scott T. -:- What's so bad about the word 'homophobic' -:- Wed, Oct 04, 2000 at 05:50:12 (GMT)
__ __ __ Yves -:- A word with many meanings means nothing -:- Tues, Oct 03, 2000 at 13:56:48 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Scott T. -:- A word with many meanings means nothing -:- Wed, Oct 04, 2000 at 05:59:04 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Yves -:- There once was a murder case where the accused ... -:- Fri, Oct 06, 2000 at 14:15:08 (GMT)
__ __ __ Joe -:- What's so bad about the word 'homophobic' -:- Mon, Oct 02, 2000 at 23:12:24 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Scott T. -:- What's so bad about the word 'homophobic' -:- Wed, Oct 04, 2000 at 06:03:21 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ gerry -:- I'm ascared of black men... -:- Tues, Oct 03, 2000 at 02:20:06 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ ham -:- Aren't all attacks based upon labelling someone -:- Mon, Oct 02, 2000 at 23:16:34 (GMT)
__ __ Yves -:- If previous post was contemptuous... -:- Mon, Oct 02, 2000 at 19:20:33 (GMT)
__ __ __ Sir Dave -:- How times change and I disagree with Joe -:- Mon, Oct 02, 2000 at 23:34:47 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Joe -:- Not my suggestion -:- Mon, Oct 02, 2000 at 23:40:33 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Sir Dave -:- My point is we DID want sexual relationships -:- Tues, Oct 03, 2000 at 00:08:08 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ gerry -:- Whaaaat? -:- Tues, Oct 03, 2000 at 02:28:35 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Roger eDrek -:- Whaaaat? -:- Tues, Oct 03, 2000 at 04:33:30 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ gerry -:- Rog are you mixing me up with that Red Nighty guy? -:- Tues, Oct 03, 2000 at 15:26:26 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Roger eDrek -:- I never tire of hearing your story, Ger -:- Tues, Oct 03, 2000 at 20:27:14 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ gerry -:- Rog, did I ever tell ya about the time... -:- Wed, Oct 04, 2000 at 21:05:24 (GMT)
__ __ __ hamzen -:- Don't take any notice Yves -:- Mon, Oct 02, 2000 at 22:51:59 (GMT)
__ __ Yves -:- Please explain how previous post is homophobic. -:- Mon, Oct 02, 2000 at 18:55:25 (GMT)

Yves -:- Michael Dettmers holds silently his secret -:- Mon, Oct 02, 2000 at 17:43:37 (GMT)
__ Joe -:- Michael Dettmers Resume -:- Mon, Oct 02, 2000 at 20:46:25 (GMT)
__ __ JTF -:- Michael Dettmers Resume -:- Tues, Oct 03, 2000 at 05:50:17 (GMT)

Jean-Michel -:- Interesting article on m in some French paper -:- Mon, Oct 02, 2000 at 17:26:41 (GMT)
__ suchabanana -:- literal translation here (a bit awkward) -:- Mon, Oct 02, 2000 at 21:10:07 (GMT)
__ __ suchabanana -:- Saturday 23 and Sunday 24 release (Society page)nt -:- Mon, Oct 02, 2000 at 21:12:43 (GMT)
__ Windflower -:- Translation Site -:- Mon, Oct 02, 2000 at 18:58:19 (GMT)
__ Yves -:- And its translation into a popular langage. -:- Mon, Oct 02, 2000 at 18:36:54 (GMT)
__ __ Yves -:- Could JM please update us on Euro policy on cults? -:- Mon, Oct 02, 2000 at 18:40:35 (GMT)
__ Way -:- Interesting article on m in some French paper -:- Mon, Oct 02, 2000 at 17:47:37 (GMT)
__ __ Jean-Michel -:- la Mission interministerielle contre les sectes -:- Tues, Oct 03, 2000 at 09:53:49 (GMT)
__ __ __ Way -:- Thanks JM -:- Tues, Oct 03, 2000 at 13:55:51 (GMT)
__ __ suchabanana -:- r.e. cult bannins -:- Mon, Oct 02, 2000 at 21:32:35 (GMT)
__ __ __ gerry -:- r.e. cult bannins -:- Wed, Oct 04, 2000 at 14:51:46 (GMT)
__ __ __ Scott T. -:- r.e. cult bannins -:- Wed, Oct 04, 2000 at 13:11:11 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Such -:- good points (nt) -:- Wed, Oct 04, 2000 at 19:21:58 (GMT)
__ __ __ Way -:- r.e. cult bannins -:- Tues, Oct 03, 2000 at 15:38:41 (GMT)
__ __ __ gerry -:- r.e. cult bannins -:- Tues, Oct 03, 2000 at 14:59:06 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ such -:- tsk tsk tsk: flame names flame games make no gains -:- Tues, Oct 03, 2000 at 20:56:35 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ gerry -:- what's so tough about defining a cult? -:- Wed, Oct 04, 2000 at 14:54:23 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Way -:- drawing the line -:- Wed, Oct 04, 2000 at 14:39:08 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ gerry -:- Harmful Cults: Characteristics (cut n paste job) -:- Wed, Oct 04, 2000 at 15:31:35 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ such -:- good job - please read Scott T.'s post above (nt) -:- Wed, Oct 04, 2000 at 19:24:14 (GMT)

Elan Vital -:- Response to Mr. Showcase -:- Mon, Oct 02, 2000 at 17:08:30 (GMT)

Joe -:- The Ashrams Closing -- Reprise -:- Mon, Oct 02, 2000 at 17:05:47 (GMT)
__ P-man -:- The Ashrams Closing -- Reprise -:- Mon, Oct 02, 2000 at 21:45:28 (GMT)
__ Joe -:- Some Additional Comments/Questions -:- Mon, Oct 02, 2000 at 20:02:12 (GMT)
__ __ Tonette -:- 'An experiment that didn't work' -:- Tues, Oct 03, 2000 at 02:15:53 (GMT)
__ __ G -:- Some Additional Comments/Questions -:- Mon, Oct 02, 2000 at 21:03:54 (GMT)
__ __ __ Joe -:- Some Additional Comments/Questions -:- Mon, Oct 02, 2000 at 21:13:12 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Roger eDrek -:- Joe, can you show me the money? -:- Tues, Oct 03, 2000 at 03:01:06 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Joe -:- Some estimates -:- Tues, Oct 03, 2000 at 18:08:52 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Monmot -:- Joe, can you show me the money? -:- Tues, Oct 03, 2000 at 05:16:36 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Roger eDrek -:- Great answers. Thanks! -:- Tues, Oct 03, 2000 at 20:38:32 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Helen -:- Great answers. Thanks! -:- Fri, Oct 06, 2000 at 14:10:15 (GMT)

Janet of Venice Beach -:- my name ridiculed at Roger's House of M Drek -:- Mon, Oct 02, 2000 at 15:08:23 (GMT)
__ Roger eDrek -:- Damnit, Janet! -:- Mon, Oct 02, 2000 at 21:16:08 (GMT)
__ __ Janet of Venice -:- Damnit, Janet! -:- Tues, Oct 03, 2000 at 09:37:56 (GMT)
__ __ __ Roger eDrek -:- Alright, Janet! Welcome! -:- Tues, Oct 03, 2000 at 20:52:11 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Janet of Venice -:- Alright, Janet! Welcome! -:- Thurs, Oct 05, 2000 at 08:47:04 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Roger eDrek -:- Wow! That's almost a complete Journey -:- Thurs, Oct 05, 2000 at 22:02:38 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Jim -:- Holy fuck, Janet -:- Thurs, Oct 05, 2000 at 21:43:26 (GMT)
__ __ __ Forum Administrator -:- No permission necessary - welcome! (nt) -:- Tues, Oct 03, 2000 at 12:38:52 (GMT)
__ Joe (JW) -:- Janet, I did not write what you quoted... -:- Mon, Oct 02, 2000 at 17:59:28 (GMT)
__ __ Janet of Venice -:- Janet, I did not write what you quoted... -:- Tues, Oct 03, 2000 at 09:46:44 (GMT)

SD -:- Inappropriate post on GWWL is put here instead -:- Mon, Oct 02, 2000 at 15:03:32 (GMT)
__ Janet Of Venice -:- Inappropriate post on GWWL is put here instead -:- Mon, Oct 02, 2000 at 15:13:52 (GMT)
__ __ suchabanana -:- persecution -- and Light at the end of the tunnel -:- Mon, Oct 02, 2000 at 18:23:27 (GMT)
__ __ __ Janet of Venice -:- persecution -- and Light at the end of the tunnel -:- Tues, Oct 03, 2000 at 09:54:22 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ suchabanana -:- persecution -- and Light at the end of the tunnel -:- Tues, Oct 03, 2000 at 21:43:50 (GMT)
__ __ Sir Dave -:- Inappropriate post on GWWL is put here instead -:- Mon, Oct 02, 2000 at 15:32:06 (GMT)

SD -:- New question in the Polling Booth -:- Mon, Oct 02, 2000 at 12:37:10 (GMT)
__ suchabanana -:- Answer in the Polling Booth -:- Mon, Oct 02, 2000 at 18:08:09 (GMT)
__ SD -:- Now put it into singular form -:- Mon, Oct 02, 2000 at 13:05:50 (GMT)

Damn homosexul's takin' -:- over the world--and YOU DON'T EVEN KNOW IT! -:- Mon, Oct 02, 2000 at 00:34:39 (GMT)
__ Joe -:- A Free Toaster Oven.... -:- Mon, Oct 02, 2000 at 21:03:54 (GMT)
__ __ Scott T. -:- A Free Toaster Oven.... -:- Tues, Oct 03, 2000 at 06:43:59 (GMT)
__ __ __ Joe -:- A Free Toaster Oven.... -:- Tues, Oct 03, 2000 at 18:43:42 (GMT)
__ Joe -:- Funny -- but this is actually true. -:- Mon, Oct 02, 2000 at 19:19:14 (GMT)
__ __ Scott T. -:- True, but this is actually funny. -:- Tues, Oct 03, 2000 at 06:49:06 (GMT)
__ __ Monmot -:- Funny -- but this is actually true. -:- Tues, Oct 03, 2000 at 05:22:44 (GMT)
__ Forum Administrator -:- Dear anonymous poster -:- Mon, Oct 02, 2000 at 14:39:44 (GMT)
__ hamzen -:- It's not what you do but how you do it -:- Mon, Oct 02, 2000 at 11:30:24 (GMT)
__ AJW -:- Don't knock it 'till you've tried it (nt) -:- Mon, Oct 02, 2000 at 11:14:15 (GMT)
__ Scott T. -:- over the world--and YOU DON'T EVEN KNOW IT! -:- Mon, Oct 02, 2000 at 07:10:14 (GMT)
__ bill -:- people that say 'damn' and other swear words are.. -:- Mon, Oct 02, 2000 at 01:27:51 (GMT)
__ __ Mel Bourne -:- people that say 'damn' and other swear words are.. -:- Mon, Oct 02, 2000 at 08:58:49 (GMT)
__ __ __ gerry -:- Uh, don't you guys think maybe this article was -:- Mon, Oct 02, 2000 at 16:37:12 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ ExTex -:- Uh, don't you guys think maybe this article was -:- Mon, Oct 02, 2000 at 19:10:38 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ gerry -:- Uh, don't you guys think maybe this article was -:- Mon, Oct 02, 2000 at 19:23:33 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ ExTex -:- That makes sense (nt) -:- Mon, Oct 02, 2000 at 20:24:19 (GMT)

jewel -:- stronger the light - darker the shadow... -:- Sun, Oct 01, 2000 at 21:09:39 (GMT)
__ Scott T. -:- stronger the light - darker the shadow... -:- Mon, Oct 02, 2000 at 13:34:47 (GMT)
__ __ ham -:- I thought the thuggies were a specific cult? -:- Mon, Oct 02, 2000 at 22:39:13 (GMT)
__ __ __ Scott T. -:- I thought the thuggies were a specific cult? -:- Tues, Oct 03, 2000 at 06:57:19 (GMT)
__ suchabanana -:- r.e. guitarists / gurus -:- Mon, Oct 02, 2000 at 02:35:00 (GMT)
__ __ gerrry -:- can you do anything for me... -:- Tues, Oct 03, 2000 at 02:48:28 (GMT)
__ __ Scott T. -:- r.e. guitarists / gurus -:- Mon, Oct 02, 2000 at 13:23:06 (GMT)
__ __ SAC -:- Do you are giving a challenge? nt -:- Mon, Oct 02, 2000 at 12:34:48 (GMT)
__ __ SAC -:- r.e. guitarists / gurus -:- Mon, Oct 02, 2000 at 12:31:32 (GMT)
__ __ hamzen -:- Musicians and rip offs -:- Mon, Oct 02, 2000 at 11:27:33 (GMT)
__ __ __ suchabanana -:- r.e. 'faves music wise', and musical inspiration -:- Mon, Oct 02, 2000 at 18:00:29 (GMT)
__ Gregg -:- Are you saying M. is a 'strong light?' (nt) -:- Sun, Oct 01, 2000 at 22:57:27 (GMT)
__ ExTex -:- Great Observation -:- Sun, Oct 01, 2000 at 21:28:07 (GMT)
__ __ jewel -:- Great Observation -:- Sun, Oct 01, 2000 at 21:41:56 (GMT)
__ __ __ ExTex -:- Great Quote -:- Sun, Oct 01, 2000 at 21:53:42 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Scott T. -:- Great Quote -:- Mon, Oct 02, 2000 at 13:47:59 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ jewel -:- thinking vs. believing -:- Sun, Oct 01, 2000 at 22:09:49 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Salam -:- The tree and the weed. -:- Mon, Oct 02, 2000 at 04:48:46 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ ExTex -:- Don't insult snakes-reptiles, Ha Ha (nt) -:- Mon, Oct 02, 2000 at 07:51:58 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Salam -:- Don't insult snakes-reptiles. Sorry..nt -:- Mon, Oct 02, 2000 at 11:43:15 (GMT)

Brian -:- Two new Journeys -:- Sun, Oct 01, 2000 at 14:20:52 (GMT)
__ Brian -:- And a third entry -:- Mon, Oct 02, 2000 at 01:49:22 (GMT)
__ Helen -:- Two new Journeys -:- Sun, Oct 01, 2000 at 15:21:24 (GMT)
__ __ Bin Liner -:- Two new Journeys -:- Sun, Oct 01, 2000 at 23:11:31 (GMT)
__ Salam -:- Two new Journeys -:- Sun, Oct 01, 2000 at 14:57:05 (GMT)
__ __ Bin Liner -:- Two new Journeys -:- Mon, Oct 02, 2000 at 01:31:28 (GMT)
__ __ suchabanana -:- practice on light (u2!), + kindness = a path -:- Sun, Oct 01, 2000 at 21:08:30 (GMT)
__ __ sb -:- To Salam -:- Sun, Oct 01, 2000 at 20:40:03 (GMT)
__ __ bill -:- Thanks Salam good story-nt -:- Sun, Oct 01, 2000 at 18:14:29 (GMT)
__ __ __ Marianne -:- Wonderful contributions -:- Sun, Oct 01, 2000 at 21:37:27 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Gregg -:- yes indeed -:- Sun, Oct 01, 2000 at 23:13:45 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ bill -:- yes indeed -:- Mon, Oct 02, 2000 at 01:33:41 (GMT)

Salam -:- It did not happen -:- Sun, Oct 01, 2000 at 12:06:47 (GMT)
__ Buzz -:- It did not happen -:- Sun, Oct 01, 2000 at 13:01:37 (GMT)
__ __ Salam -:- So you want to see Jesus? -:- Sun, Oct 01, 2000 at 14:15:26 (GMT)
__ __ __ Aussie Aussie Aussie -:- So you want to see Jesus? -:- Mon, Oct 02, 2000 at 12:58:24 (GMT)
__ __ __ ExTex -:- Very clever..cute (nt) -:- Sun, Oct 01, 2000 at 19:14:24 (GMT)
__ __ __ gerry -:- That was great !!! -:- Sun, Oct 01, 2000 at 17:05:09 (GMT)


Date: Tues, Oct 03, 2000 at 01:51:57 (GMT)
From: Roger eDrek
Email: drek@oz.net
To: Everyone
Subject: How can premies justify a 7 million dollar yacht?
Message:
I recently saw that Jean-Michel had gotten specific data about Maharaji's 7 million dollar motor yacht, Serenity and I'm wondering just exactly how premies can rationalize this extravagant luxury.

Ok, sure, Maharaji is his own man - a self-made successful private investor, inventor, poet, songwright, painter, educator and motivational speaker - and I have no right asking questions as to how he spends his money. Or do I?

I was a premie for far too long. I gave it up only a few years ago. I was active in financially supporting both the local and the national organization. I attended the touring fund raisers. I received the mass mailings about the money drives for the various airplanes that Maharaji needed to acquire for the purpose of being able to spread his Knowledge and save the world. In the early days I even volunteered at various premie companies. I lived in a premie house where we turned over our paychecks and the money above and beyond our minimal expenses were given to Divine Light Mission.

I was doing all of that giving of myself for the belief that I was helping Maharaji spread his Knowledge and make the world a better, more enlightened place.

I could easily understand why Maharaji might need a superior and more expensive aircraft that has a longer range since Maharaji spends so much of his time travelling to give programs. (Note: This was during the time a few years ago when it appeared that Maharaji was doing a lot of travelling for the purpose of putting on programs. At this point in time it appears that the number of programs has been drastically reduced.) We were told that Maharaji flew such and such hundreds of thousands of miles and how much of his life he sacrificed on behalf of the premies. How could I not fall for this pitch? I didn't and I saw it as my duty to give more money and I increased the amount of money that I sent every month to Elan Vital. And really because the checks were made to Elan Vital it wasn't like I was supporting Maharaji's extravagant playboy expensive wristwatch collecting lifestyle complete with entourage. No, indeed not! There is a separate P.O. Box for money being sent straight to fatso. Thus, there is a clear and discernable delineation between Maharaji and Elan Vital for those desiring not seeing their donations squandered.

Like I said above, I have no right asking Maharaji money if it's his money. But really how much of his Money is his money? Where did all this money come from? I guess if the Donald and Ken DeLaski's and all the other rich guys want to out and out give Maharaji money I should have no valid complaint. Or is there more to the obscene wealth that seemingly belongs to Maharaji than that? And it would appear that from Michael Dettmers' own accounting he ran a Swiss based foundation that took in excess of 100 million dollars in 1982 one has to wonder how much of this money made it to Maharaji and his cohorts and web of shell corporations?

And, as long as I'm on the topic of Swiss based foundations and 100 million dollars in 1982, one year prior to the closing of the ashrams for good, I'm wondering if closing the ashrams and scaling back on the organization overhead wasn't more of a move to reduce expenses and liabilities that would otherwise siphon off hard dollars that could be going directly into Maharaji's shell corporations? Consider if the ashrams were to never close and the ability to attract and retain new younger ashram residents was to permanently decline. Basically, the ashram as used by Maharaji was a pyramid scheme where at some point in the future huge outlays of cash would be required to pay for much neglected and postponed needs of ashram residents - things like clothing, healthcare and even further out in time something called retirement. Instead, I propose the ashrams were viewed as cash cows and the ability to starve the cow to bare subsistence was easily accomplished due to the extreme sacrifice that ashram premies were willing to make just to be a lowly pimple on Maharaji's ass. Add to that the threat of the most unthinkable tragic consequences if anyone ever left the ashram and you've got the perfect slave labor camp.

Damn straight, I have no right asking questions as to how Maharaji spends his money! Why the hell am I saying his money anyway when all these material things like yachts, planes, cars, estates, etc. are not directly owned by Maharaji? Conveniently none of this stuff belongs to him. No taxes are paid. All the privileges and none of the consequences. Yes indeedy, this spark makes whatever it touches perfect and perfect are all those shell corporations.

I digress a wee bit. How can premies justify or rationalize a 7 million dollar motor yacht? Like I said, as a premie I could proudly justify a 25 million dollar corporate aircraft, the same kind Bill Gates had, but had I known about 7 million dollar yacht I could never have rationalized that unless I thought that Maharaji was God. And I did think that. So, what's it gonna be, premies? Is Maharaji God or is he just a teacher or as he says a Master? And why can't the Master sacrifice a little himself once in awhile? In the touring fund raisers the guest speaker from Maharajitown always paint horrific dire pictures of an organization that is going out of business forever in the next two months unless every premie increases their donation. How can this be? Can't Maharaji cut back a little and kick in a few of his own bucks if he really cares so much about saving humanity with his sacred and secret ancient Knowledge?

And what about his damn wristwatch collection? Do those things grow on trees or what? I mean who the fuck has a wristwatch collection? I'll tell ya - somebody with too much fucking money and too much time on their hands. Get a fucking real job, you fucking greedy pig!

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Date: Thurs, Oct 05, 2000 at 04:19:22 (GMT)
From: Janet of Venice
Email: None
To: Roger eDrek and all
Subject: How can premies justify a 7 million dollar yacht?
Message:
here's some brutally truthful data from a ship owner who is my landlord, and an ex-NASA physicist. I invite any one interested to do the math implied from this, and figure out how much this toyboat is gonna cost the premies AFTER he acquires it!!
to wit, I quote---(((curved parenthetical remarks are mine)))
'normally about 20% down is required to buy a boat, after which you get a loan for the balance at about 10-12%, with a term of 15 years, or 30 years if it is a big loan, over 100k or so. you must have fair credit, and be able to show income that will pay the loan back... usually they require that only 1/3 of your income be devoted to long term expenses, like rent, loan payments, etc.  For instance, if you wanted to buy a 30 ft.-long boat costing $10,000, you would need $2,000 down and a loan of $18,000 - say at 12 % interest for 15 years, or with payments of $216.03 for 15 years. [the 10% payment would be $193.43 and if you could get a 10%/30yr loan, then the payments would be $157.96] -  in order to qualify for the loan, your monthly income would have to be three times your rent,  $500 plus your loan payment, $216.03,  or 3x[$500 + $216.03] = $2148.09 or about $25k a year.

~> In addition to your loan payments, you would have to pay slip fees of about $10/foot per month, and

~>insurance of about $500 a year for a 30ft boat worth $10,000.

~> Add in maintenance,
and operating supplies,
and you get the final figure...

probably around $216 + $300 [slip fee] + $42 [insurance] + $100 [everything else] = $658 a month...

i have assumed a 30 foot boat.

one other thing... most marinas double their slip fees if you live aboard... and most marinas do not allow liveaboards at all...

to sail away into the sunset... you can go to latitude 38 web site and look around for a start... you also might find a desperate seller who you can make a deal with... like $500 down and small monthly payments to pay off the boat... anything is possible...
€ € € € € € € € € € €
as far as million dollar boats... you must have million dollar incomes to afford them...

the maintenance cost of boats go up as
~~~>>>the cube of the length... so if a million dollar boat was 100 feet long, then roughly 100 x [100/30]**3 = $3699 a month... and those big boats have even more expenses than the little 30 footer .. like fuel
[diesel costs about 1.50 a gallon,
a 100 footer burns about 10 gallons per mile]

crew [30k a year at least... you need at least one for a 100 footer]
(((†...well-- we KNOW the poor schmucks who will get drawn into doing THAT for nothing, just like at DECA))))

and slip fees are much more, since there are few 100 foot slips...
be prepared to spend $10k a month, at least.'

(‡ for a one million dollar boat..do we assume a factor of 7 for a $7M boat??)

someone crunch the numbers for us, and report back to all of us, below this post, please?

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Date: Tues, Oct 03, 2000 at 21:33:34 (GMT)
From: Pauline Premie
Email: None
To: Roger eDrek
Subject: How can premies justify a 7 million dollar yacht?
Message:
A premie has to have that understanding that the very best this completely lost and confused world has to offer is just barely good enough for Maharaji. I'm surprised and ashamed that he only has a $7,000,000 yacht. I would have thought he would have at least a $10,000,000 yacht, or actually two or three, like he truly deserves. The fact that he has only one yacht and that it is so delapidated is just an indication of the hardships Maharaji has to put up with, and how lacking in the gift of gratitude we are in providing for the Master in such an a disgracefully inadequate fashion. It's not easy being rich, you know. It's actually quite hard, or so Maharaji says.
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Date: Tues, Oct 03, 2000 at 18:56:03 (GMT)
From: Know It All
Email: None
To: Roger eDrek
Subject: Wrist watch collection
Message:
Just how did he amass the wrist watch collection, anyway? I'm sure the phrase 'DARSHAN LINE' doesn't appear anywhere on his resume, website, etc., in connection to this illustrious collection.

KIA

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Date: Wed, Oct 04, 2000 at 08:10:32 (GMT)
From: Jean-Michel of Paris
Email: None
To: Know It All
Subject: about to tell you how he's amassed cheap souvenirs
Message:
Simple: before he comes for a program (or used to ....), usually a few weeks before, the word was passed through 'friends' having 'connections in Malibu' that Rawat wanted that precise watch, usually worth $ 10,000 or more, and the premies would collect the money all over the country to purchase the 'gift'. And such and such person in Paris was in charge of collecting the money and buying the 'gift'.

Imagine he's been asking for that sort of 'gift' in the main places he would visit for a few years .... It's a bit childish in a way: keeping cheap souvenirs from the places you've been visiting!!

I don't remember taking part in that sort of gift. I didn't like it. Heard about it, and been asked to donate, yes.

But I've been part of teams smuggling money to him (to the US), and/or bottles of good cognac (Marnier Lapostolle).

That's all.

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Date: Wed, Oct 04, 2000 at 03:35:56 (GMT)
From: i witness
Email: None
To: all
Subject: Wrist watch collection
Message:
I heard an ashram premie brag about purchasing, I assume using Rawat's money, a $5,000 wrist watch for him. It was clear that it was at Rawat's direct request that he did this, Rawat told him to buy a particular wrist watch. This was while the ashrams were in debt, one reason for which was the money given to DLM and Rawat, and while ashram premies didn't have money to buy basics, like badly needed new underwear.
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Date: Tues, Oct 03, 2000 at 19:20:18 (GMT)
From: cq
Email: None
To: Know It All
Subject: Tell it to the IRS (nt)
Message:
hah!
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Date: Tues, Oct 03, 2000 at 13:29:13 (GMT)
From: Elaine
Email: None
To: Roger eDrek
Subject: How can premies justify a 7 million dollar yacht?
Message:
Just stopped by and that is an excellent post that I'm printing and giving to some premie friends.
Just one of his watches could help ONE premie that has given soo much to buy a working car.( In the least.) Let alone premies sick with no insurance,etc.

And ps Roger - I don't read all of shp's stuff.What I had seen seemed innocuous enough.

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Date: Tues, Oct 03, 2000 at 10:31:18 (GMT)
From: suchabanana
Email: None
To: Roger eDrek
Subject: MAHAMANTRA + 4 simple techniques to enlightenment!
Message:
The MAHAMANTRA:
'...Once you've made your first million, you need another to protect it. Then you have two million, and you'll need another two million to protect those two million. Then you'll have four million and you'll need another four million to protect those four million, and then you'll have eight million. Of course then you'll need another 8 million to protect those eight million and then you'll have 16 million... it isn't easy, it's not what you think.' (- Maharaji at Long Beach '95)

{repeat this mantra 1000 times while looking at Maharaji's picture, to attain virtual enlightenment!!!]

The MAHAMANTRA:
'...Once you've made your first million, you need another to protect it. Then you have two million, and you'll need another two million to protect those two million. Then you'll have four million and you'll need another four million to protect those four million, and then you'll have eight million. Of course then you'll need another 8 million to protect those eight million and then you'll have 16 million... it isn't easy, it's not what you think.'
'...Once you've made your first million, you need another to protect it. Then you have two million, and you'll need another two million to protect those two million. Then you'll have four million and you'll need another four million to protect those four million, and then you'll have eight million. Of course then you'll need another 8 million to protect those eight million and then you'll have 16 million... it isn't easy, it's not what you think.'
'...Once you've made your first million, you need another to protect it. Then you have two million, and you'll need another two million to protect those two million. Then you'll have four million and you'll need another four million to protect those four million, and then you'll have eight million. Of course then you'll need another 8 million to protect those eight million and then you'll have 16 million... it isn't easy, it's not what you think...' etc.
KEEP GOING 1000X:
HAVE YOU ATTAINED ENLIGHTENMENT OF THE SELF-EVIDENT TRUTH, YET?

Yes? Welcome to the Light!

No? Continue repeating the Mahamantra, little grasshopper.
----------------------------------------------------------------
THE 4 SIMPLE TECHNIQUES FOR TRUE BELIEVERS:
Concentrate on the photo of the featured 112-foot $7.5 million-dollar Westport motor yacht with pilothouse on the westportyachtsales.com site (go to >yacht brokerage: featured vessels: Westport Shipyard) as you repeat any (or all) of the following simple mantras 10,000 times:

Techniques #1-4:
1) mantra: 'It isn't easy; it's not what you think. It isn't easy; it's not what you think. It isn't easy; it's not what you think,' etc.

[Instructions: Focus your Sight on the visual image of the yacht, and silently repeat this mantra, as you gradually gain the hidden deeper meaning of the mantra]

2) mantra: 'The message remains the same, the message remains the same, the message remains the same, the message remains the same' etc.

[Instructions: as you gaze intently at the picture of the yacht, Listen to the mantra words carefully -- to reveal the hidden deeper meaning of the timeless message behind the mantra. Other images or thoughts may arise in the mind: like 'Rolls Royce', 'Aston Martin', 'mansions', 'millions', 'smuggler', 'jets', 'Bijan', 'Armani', or 'Rolex' etc. Allow these thoughts to pass through undisturbed; they are simply material illusions or mental impressions [samsaras], but they also represent steps on the path of your increasing realization. When the hidden enduring resounding message which 'remains the same' finally becomes clear, then you have attained a new level of enlightenment.]

3) mantra: 'The giver and the gift, the giver and the gift, the giver and the gift, the giver and the gift', etc.

[Instructions: As you gaze at the yacht and silently repeat the mantra, Feel a Vibration literally emanating in your abdomen, as your consciousness relates the yacht with this mantra]

4) mantra: 'sucker, sucker, sucker, sucker, sucker, sucker, sucker, sucker,sucker', etc.

{Instructions: Gazing at the yacht, mentally repeat this mantra, and using an ancient hatha yoga technique, Suck your tongue backwards in your throat -- to accentuate the deeper symbolic effect of the mantra]

After enlightenment on the revelation of the evident materialized truths here, then for your own peace of mind (and personal health and self-preservation), without judgment of any individual who comes to mind, quickly plunge into deep meditation [for at least an hour] on the universal life energy within you: the real gift, the energy and Light and Breath you were graced with and born with, that is yours in this life -- and which is no other human being's property or monopoly to hoard -- using any effective inner technique(s) you please. Who/what gave us the Gift of Life? The true giver and the gift!

Peace, to all brothers and sisters, to all who have suffered and endured for the sake of liberating Truth. Slavery is hereby abolished!!! To thine own self be true -- and the truth shall set you free! Rejoice, oh ye daughters and sons of the living infinite universal energy! Know ye not -- ye are ALL the sons and daughters of that eternal and infinite energy. Rejoice and breathe -- Free, Free, Free at last...
Peace, Love, and Light forever...

from a common servant and child of the giver of life

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Date: Tues, Oct 03, 2000 at 05:53:14 (GMT)
From: Buzz
Email: None
To: Roger eDrek
Subject: How can premies justify a 7 million dollar yacht?
Message:
His extravagance is disgusting.What a fucking example!!
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Date: Tues, Oct 03, 2000 at 04:26:37 (GMT)
From: suchabanana
Email: None
To: Roger eDrek et al
Subject: 7 million dollar yacht (2000 model) lookee, folks!
Message:
'IT ISN'T EASY; IT'S NOT WHAT YOU THINK!' - Maharaji at Long Beach '95

Copy this web address, then paste to Address, then GO!

http://webtools.bucnet.com/templates/viewfeatured_sksg.cfm?CFID=104957&CFTOKEN=63064873

$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$
'You know some people don't like rich people. They have this idea or that idea of what it is to be rich. But they really don't know. It's not easy to be rich. It isn't. Once you've made your first million, you need another to protect it. Then you have two million, and you'll need another two million to protect those two million. Then you'll have four million and you'll need another four million to protect those four million, and then you'll have eight million. Of course then you'll need another 8 million to protect those eight million and then you'll have 16 million... it isn't easy, it's not what you think.'
-- Maharaji speaking at Long Beach, December 1995

'IT ISN'T EASY,IT'S NOT WHAT YOU THINK'$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$

THE GIVER AND THE GIFT: THE MESSAGE REMAINS THE SAME
'If Guru Maharaj Ji tells us to go to hell, let us go there cheerfully, without any hesitation, for He has the power which can convert hell into heaven. Therefore, my blessed brothers and sisters, obey Guru Maharaj Ji implicitly, serve Him wholeheartedly and love Him for the sake of love alone. Ask nothing, want nothing in return, just devotion. Devote to Him what you have to devote. It will come back multiplied a millionfold, but do not think of that now. Remember! Guru Maharaj Ji is not hungry of our possessions. He is always selfcontented, perfect in His Divinity, His Knowledge is infinite in its application. His soul is the foundation of immortal bliss. What He wants from us is only pure love and devotion, and really He is the only source of love and devotion. We poor people have got nothing but hatred, jealousy, envy, pride and so on. Truly, He loves the whole world selflessly.' -- Charanand article, 1972

'IT ISN'T EASY,IT'S NOT WHAT YOU THINK'$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$

Was I out of the loop on the Westport Yacht Project, or what? But, I think I understand. I mean, you know, when the aviation fuel gets too expensive, or the FAA bans another polluting plane (like the 707 - garage sale, anyone?), the Lord might need that funky little 106-foot dinghy to get around -- also, to relax, because it must be awful hard sometimes being Lord of the entire Universe. That's a big job, after all. By the way, what about the suffering in Rwanda, Kosovo, Ethiopia, etc.? Don't ask, don't tell -- Right, I mean, 'if you feed those people today, they'll just be hungry again tomorrow', right? Well, you obviously know what you're talking about, sir...

'IT ISN'T EASY,IT'S NOT WHAT YOU THINK'$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$

And you know, 'the guy driving the Lincoln, well he's had money a long long time, but now, the Mercedes -- 'the practical man',' right? But then, I wouldn't know... 'cause we were all bozos on that old VW bus! But, I'm really looking forward to that first million, so I can have the second million to protect the first million, and then the four million to protect the two million, and so forth... Wow, that Maya sure looks nice -- ain't it sweet?!!

'IT ISN'T EASY,IT'S NOT WHAT YOU THINK'$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$

Yep, I had the honor of polishing that green Rolls Royce with the Hans license plate. Why is it that M., Sai Baba, and the late Rajneesh (Osho) have all favored the most expensive cars in the world? Because they can... They're beyond the Maya [illusion of the material world], right? I mean, after you have one Rolls Royce, then you need an Aston Martin, and then you need a Mercedes, and then you need a Lamborghini, and then you need a G-4 jet, right, to keep up with Bill Gates and the Emir of Dubai. Only the best will do!

'IT ISN'T EASY,IT'S NOT WHAT YOU THINK'$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$

To provide the lifestyle worthy of the living Lord of the Universe, there must be Devotion [sic 'gratitude' and 'appreciation'] by the premies ['students'] to the Guru ['Master'].

'IT ISN'T EASY,IT'S NOT WHAT YOU THINK'$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$

Oh, please forgive us, for our tormented thoughts... 'GURU MAHARAJ JI IS NOT HUNGRY OF OUR POSSESSIONS'

'IT ISN'T EASY,IT'S NOT WHAT YOU THINK'$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$

Never leave room for doubt -- doubts about M., or doubt in our own selves, our own intuition, our own innate intelligence, and in our own mutual Creator?

'IT ISN'T EASY,IT'S NOT WHAT YOU THINK'$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$

Really now: If someone comes along and shows us something that's already there within us, is it theirs, or their gift? No. Perhaps their showing us might be a gift -- but only if there are absolutely NO strings attached. Now there's the rub, folks. A gift is not a gift, if there are strings attached. repeat: A GIFT IS NOT A GIFT, IF THERE ARE STRINGS ATTACHED.

'IT ISN'T EASY,IT'S NOT WHAT YOU THINK'$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$

I clearly remember mahatma [instructor] Fakiranand saying (at my knowledge session), 'If you have millions, give millions.' Who instructed the mahatmas and instructors to direct money, gifts and devotion to M., in return for the Knowledge?

'IT ISN'T EASY,IT'S NOT WHAT YOU THINK'$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$

Yeah, 'THE MESSAGE REMAINS THE SAME': 'If you have millions, give millions.'

'IT ISN'T EASY,IT'S NOT WHAT YOU THINK'$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$

Duh! We've been had...

Peace, my Brothers and Sisters

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Date: Tues, Oct 03, 2000 at 04:35:37 (GMT)
From: suchabanana
Email: None
To: suchabanana
Subject: corrected address page (2000 model) lookee, folks!
Message:
http://webtools.bucnet.com/display/frdisplayforsale.cfm?seq=4&view=featured&CFID=104966&CFTOKEN=20394611
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Date: Tues, Oct 03, 2000 at 07:59:41 (GMT)
From: Jean-Michel
Email: None
To: suchabanana
Subject: Your link doesn't work !! (nt)
Message:
nt
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Date: Tues, Oct 03, 2000 at 10:41:54 (GMT)
From: Janet of Venice
Email: None
To: Jean-Michel
Subject: Your link doesn't work !! (nt)
Message:
I have this keen sense that EV people watch this forum and use all the conniving powers they have honed, to block us from reaching all the links we post here that would take us to things they dont want us to know. notice how someone said they could get to the page from elsewhere but not from here? if the link doesnt work from here, ccp it into your cache and then go surfing to unrelated sites and then jump from there. or handwrite the URL down, power off to empty your browser history, come back on and try to go there again. if you're still blocked,try from either a proxy, to conceal your cookies, if their site has tagged you as forbidden to enter, or from the library, or a cybercafe, or a friends pc who isnt into this stuff. it is possible the EV gestapo have alerted these various sites to wanting access blocked from right here. and anyone who tries the links from right here carries the traces with them that they came from here, plus their remote address in cookie so the site will recognize them in the future no matter where they come in from. the only way to foil that sniffer is to come in on some other remote address like the library or school or a cafe, unconnected with your home terminal.
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Date: Tues, Oct 03, 2000 at 13:30:46 (GMT)
From: JM of Paris
Email: None
To: Janet of Venice
Subject: No problem through a proxy !
Message:
That's odd.

I don't believe that company would block some visitors only .....

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Date: Tues, Oct 03, 2000 at 04:08:48 (GMT)
From: steve
Email: the_avenger55@hotmail.com
To: Roger eDrek
Subject: The wristwatch collection
Message:
The wristwatch collection is so he'll get used to wearing tight handcuffs for a long time.
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Date: Tues, Oct 03, 2000 at 09:56:18 (GMT)
From: Steve
Email: None
To: steve
Subject: If you read the page you'd notice steve...
Message:
that I've already posted many times as Steve. This could get confusing. Either you could put an initial after your name or I could?

Steve Mulley.

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Date: Tues, Oct 03, 2000 at 03:59:33 (GMT)
From: TED Farkel
Email: None
To: Roger eDrek
Subject: Ya think our lord would give ole TED a ride?(nt)
Message:
nt
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Date: Tues, Oct 03, 2000 at 02:16:44 (GMT)
From: gerry
Email: None
To: Roger eDrek
Subject: Nice One, Rog, Hey shp, you jerk...
Message:
How do YOU justify goober's

SEVEN MILLION DOLLAR YACHT ???

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Date: Mon, Oct 02, 2000 at 18:02:30 (GMT)
From: Yves
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: Cult suspected of being gay-unfriendly
Message:
Unconfirmed information report a gay high-ranking EV official and major canadian fund-raiser (whose name is kept secret here out of respect) married years ago to avoid cult disrepute and keep opportunity of climbing ladder.

When confirmed, this will be used as evidence for cult's abusive nature.

Educated gay-friendly informators confirm high-ranking EV official to be 'As gay as a flower in May'.

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Date: Mon, Oct 02, 2000 at 21:00:41 (GMT)
From: Joe
Email: None
To: Yves
Subject: Cult suspected of being gay-unfriendly
Message:
I have wondered about this, particularly because Dennis Murphy, who was Maharaji's cook for a few years, told me that Maharaji was derisive toward homosexuals, that he told demeaning and homophobic jokes, and that he had a hard time accepting gay people.

I never detected actual homophobia within the Maharaji cult, and I certainly knew premies, particularly a lot of ashram premies who were gay, most of them firmly in the closet. Since the ashram premies were supposed to be celibate, all sexuality was looked down upon, whether heterosexual or homosexual.

Since I believe ashrams had a higher precentage of gay people than the general population, I think people who wanted to avoid dealing with their sexuality (whether this was due to external or internal homophobia it's hard to say), tended to be attracted to the ashrams.

Unfortunately, it's still the case that many homosexuals get married in order to try to fit in and be accepted by family, friends, society, etc. It's sad because those marriages are often a sham and when there are children involved it can make it much more difficult.

Do you know what kind of 'cult disrepute' this person might have suffered if it was known he was gay? Are you saying that he married simply so he could stay involved in Elan Vital?

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Date: Tues, Oct 03, 2000 at 11:29:01 (GMT)
From: Is Dennis Murphy
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: Still a Premie ? (NT)
Message:
nt
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Date: Tues, Oct 03, 2000 at 18:28:04 (GMT)
From: Joe
Email: None
To: Is Dennis Murphy
Subject: I don't know (NT)
Message:
nt
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Date: Mon, Oct 02, 2000 at 18:38:31 (GMT)
From: PCH
Email: None
To: Yves
Subject: Yves: homophobic jerk
Message:
this is not the first time you post homophobic messages. What is your problem? have you thought of seeking therapy? you really are an embarassement to ex-premie.org and i am surprised that your posts are tolerated
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Date: Mon, Oct 02, 2000 at 22:02:50 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: PCH
Subject: What's so bad about the word 'homophobic'
Message:
I really hate that word, 'homophobic'. No, I'm not afraid of it -- that would make me homophobicphobic and I'm certainly not that. I just don't like.

Phobias are fears. Some people, gay or straight, might believe that anti-gay sentiment stems from some sort of fear, fear that gays might take over city council or fears that the anti-gay people might harbour repressed gay inclinations. But that is, at best, just a theory and, even if it were true in some cases, it sure wouldn't be the norm. Fear of latent gayness has to be just one of several bases for the prejudice. I can think of several other reasons which, I'm sure, are much more common factors.

Prejudice against blacks isn't called 'negrophobia' and prejudice against jews isn't called 'semitophobia'. So what's with this 'homophobia' stuff? The word presumes way too much and that, I think, is wrong.

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Date: Wed, Oct 04, 2000 at 05:43:12 (GMT)
From: Scott T.
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: What's so bad about the word 'homophobic'
Message:
Jim:

Isn't the literal meaning 'fear of sameness?' The mind boggles.

--Scott

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Date: Tues, Oct 03, 2000 at 14:21:48 (GMT)
From: P-man
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: What's so bad about the word 'homophobic'
Message:
One of the differences between the bigotry towards gays, and the bigotry towards racial and religious groups, is that there's pressure for men to not be feminine. There's no worry for a white man to not act Black or Jewish; he'd have to really make an effort, but if he doesn't watch it, he might just act like a sissy.

Nowadays, everyone knows there's gay men who are not feminine, so you can't even be sure you won't be percieved as gay just because you're masculine. On the other hand, you never have to worry you might just be a Negro, underneath.

There might be fear of Blacks, Jews and others but you sure don't have to worry that you, yourself, might actually be one.

Also, you can usually tell who's Black, Asian or Jewish so you can start hating them before you even meet them. They can't often sneak in and gain your respect before you realize they're different and have to hate them. With gays, especially nowadays, you have to be ever-vigilant, lest you unknowingly fall into liking them.

If you're a father, your son could turn out to be gay but he sure as hell won't turn out to be Chinese, if you and your wife are white. Same with your best friend.

Gays are also the only group that don't actually reproduce themselves (except with the help of David Crosby). They just pop up in families, all across America. How would you feel if that was the case with Libyans?

And with Blacks, if they would just stop smoking crack and dancing, they could be exactly like whites... exactly. Same with Jews... ditch the funny beanie-hats and stop being so cheap, and whamo, you have a white person that used to be Jewish.

With gays, no matter what you do to make them the same, they'll always be screwing each other. They can go to church, have a college degree, and even 'act' exactly like everyone else, but they just won't stop having sex with each other.

So you see, deep down, this makes people very nervous.

Also, take into consideration that gay people are the only group that got to invent their own word... homophobic. Blacks didn't coin the word 'racism'. If they had, they would have called it 'blackophobia' or 'Afrophobia'. Everyone wants to be feared, or at least believe that the reason they're hated is because of fear.

So you have to hand it to those gays. They actually came up with their own word for describing your distaste with them. Talk about PR.

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Date: Wed, Oct 04, 2000 at 20:21:40 (GMT)
From: Joe
Email: None
To: P-man
Subject: Good Point.
Message:
I really think with homophobia that it isn't so much that gay people exist, but that people just don't want to know about it. Like you say, unlike racial differences, it is possible to 'pass' as straight in this society, and most gay people, especially from my generation, are expert at it. You learned to do it at a very early age and it is possible to continue for your whole life, although it is a horrible way to have to live.

I think the whole anti-gay Christian Coalition movement is mostly to try to scare gay people to go back into the closet. If there are gay people, at least they shouldn't be acknowledged as acceptable or normal.

That's what's so digusting and destructive about the 'don't ask/don't tell' military policy. It's like it's okay to be gay, just don't ever act like you are or say you are, because knowledge of your existence is offensive to others. It's really outrageous. Well, at least Al Gore has come out opposed to the policy.

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Date: Thurs, Oct 05, 2000 at 04:19:27 (GMT)
From: Scott T.
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: Good Point.
Message:
Joe:

I have to admit that I haven't got the slightest idea what it might be like to live in the closet, so I count on you to be straight with me about it.

I have a slightly better idea what it is to be a Christian conservative, and I submit that not all of them are afraid of gays. Whatever, there is this little matter of the articles of faith, so they aren't entirely free to just glum onto any old personal attitude that strikes their fancy. That *does* play *some* part in it. Not saying you should be awed by anyone else's orthodox convictions, but it might help to understand. What the hell, even if it's not a matter of principled conviction it might become so if you treat it that way. At least then it becames a matter of interpretation, which is one or two steps removed from hate.

The 'don't ask don't tell' policy is clearly a compromise, without which there'd almost certainly be a Republican President in the White House at the moment and an incumbent running for a second term. Principled or not, that *was* the political reality of the thing in 1993 through 1996. (I read those tea leaves long before they settled.) Things may well change, or may have already changed, which in a not-too-peculiar way justifies the policy.

Anyway, there's a lot of fear out there. As long as it doesn't feed on craziness things should keep getting better. I understand that's probably cold comfort, and I don't expect you to 'defer' to it.

--Scott

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Date: Thurs, Oct 05, 2000 at 19:15:42 (GMT)
From: Joe
Email: None
To: Scott T.
Subject: The fear and the backlash
Message:
I have to admit that I haven't got the slightest idea what it might be like to live in the closet, so I count on you to be straight with me about it.

I have actually been fortunate in that I don't have to live in the closet, and haven't for a very long time. Actually, I can't say I've ever had to live a double life like I know other people. I do recall, however, that at a very early age I thought I was different and that I shouldn't say anything about it. Homophobia, just like racism, is learned very, very early, from my own experience and everything else I have heard.

Whatever, there is this little matter of the articles of faith, so they aren't entirely free to just glum onto any old personal attitude that strikes their fancy.

Well, there are all kinds of Christians and only some of them think homosexuality is wrong, I completely agree. From everything I have read, the religious basis for this, is just as bogus as the religious justification of slavery. Neither Jesus Christ, nor the New Testiment, ever mentioned homosexuality, and the places where it appears in the Old Testament are misinterpreted, according to many biblical scholars. Supposed 'literal interpretation' of the Bible is nonsense anyhow. It is always based on somebody's interpretation.

No, the homophobia is exacerbated by like Pat Robertson and Jerry Falwell, Gary Bauer, and a bunch of others, which is so awful, when they flame the prejudice many people already have about gays from an early age and give it a religious justification, and also to use it to scare people (I guess to increase the homophobia) to raise money and to influence politics.

By the way, abortion is another thing never mentioned anywhere in the Bible.

The Catholic position is particularly nuts, and isn't even based on the Bible, and Catholics don't believe in literal interpretation anyway, nor put all that much stock in the Bible. I don't know if you would consider Catholics christian conservatives or not. Certainly on that issue they are.

The 'don't ask don't tell' policy is clearly a compromise, without which there'd almost certainly be a Republican President in the White House at the moment and an incumbent running for a second term. Principled or not, that *was* the political reality of the thing in 1993 through 1996. (I read those tea leaves long before they settled.) Things may well change, or may have already changed, which in a not-too-peculiar way justifies the policy.

I am someone who doesn't blame Clinton for what happened with the policy. He did try to make the change, but didn't realize the opposition would be so great. Tom Ammiano, a local politician has written that during the debate on all this in 1993, Clinton called him up and told him something like: 'Tom, I just didn't realize they hated you that much.' According to Tom, Clinton was floored by the amount of opposition.

And I really think Clinton believed the compromise was an improvement, which it turned out not to be. More gays are being thrown out now than they were before the policy was put in place. It has resulted in an even bigger witch hunt. Fortunately, both he and Gore have acknowledged that the policy isn't working and they ahve come out for eliminating the policy and allowing gay people to serve openly in the military.

But I disagree that the policy would have been Clinton's downfall. As it was, he had the worst of both worlds. Those who hated the idea of gays in the military hated him for proposing it, and the gay community largely felt betrayed by what he did. So, he lost political points on both sides.

But the discussion that happened around the issue was extremely helpful, although painful for many people. The polls on the issue have flipped since then, with about two-thirds of the public in favor of gays being able to serve openly. By the time 1996 came around, it was not even an issue in the campaign, and it isn't even an issue this time around. This is partly the recognition of the gay voting block and fundraising source, especially in states like New York and California, but also because the sentiment of the country has changed.

There have been amazing progress in the past 10 years. More than I would ever have thought. I think if Gore is elected, the EDNA will pass the Senate. It failed only by one vote last time it was up. Of course, where there is progress, there is also more fear, and backlash. That's just how these things work, I guess.

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Date: Thurs, Oct 05, 2000 at 20:49:19 (GMT)
From: Scott T.
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: The fear and the backlash
Message:
Joe:

I'm glad we sorta see eye to eye, though we still probably disagree about the context. As for whether Clinton would have been relected, you're forgetting how profoundly unpopular the guy was at the time. That issue would almost certainly have sunk him for good. The comeback from '94 to '96 was remarkable, but it was partly fueled by his decision to shelve certain committments he had made earlier (healthcare, for instance). I'd like to see the healthcare thing come up again, but it seems pretty anaemic. It is, however, the defining liberal/conservative issue in the Congress. i.e. 'liberals' are for some sort of national health plan almost to a man, and 'conservatives' are just as staunchly arrayed against it. Eventually the conservatives have to lose this one, but probably not until the liberals get smarter about it.

Crap, my mind is wandering again. I need a pill.

--Scott

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Date: Thurs, Oct 05, 2000 at 21:47:57 (GMT)
From: Joe
Email: None
To: Scott T.
Subject: Why Clinton Won and Lost
Message:
As for whether Clinton would have been relected, you're forgetting how profoundly unpopular the guy was at the time.

What 'time' are you talking about? By the election in 1996 Clinton had some of the highest approval ratings with a booming economy. Plus, remember that in 1995 the Republicans closed down the government. That fool-hearty act was probably the single most important event in ensuring Clinton's re-election. And then there was Bob Dole. You aren't serious, are you, that he ever had a realistic chance? And as I said, by 1996 the sentiment had changed on gays in the military.

The unpopularity of Clinton in 1994, resulting in the republican landslides had a lot to do with Clinton failing to propose the middle-class tax cut he promised when he ran in 1992 (because of the 'bond market'), and because any other kind of economic stimulus or economic populism was jetisoned for the same reason right after he was elected, and he failed to get healthcare passed which he also promised. As a result, a big segment of the white working class abandoned the Democratic party in droves in 1994.

They were not, however, voting for Gingrich's rightwing ideology. What saved Clinton in 1996 and the Democrats in subsequent elections, was a perception by these voters, that they were the defenders of Social Security, Medicare, education and the environment -- the 'Old Democrat' programs. This was reinforced by Gingrich shutting down the government and his popularity ratings dropping to 17%. Game over for Gingrich.

By the way, I just finished a great book on this issue where all this is analyzed. It's called America's Forgotten Majority: Why the White Working Class Still Matters by Ray Teixeira and Joel Rogers. The publisher is Basic Books.

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Date: Fri, Oct 06, 2000 at 06:06:20 (GMT)
From: Scott T.
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: Why Clinton Won and Lost
Message:
Joe:

I think it's Ruy Teixeira? He used to be with AEI, I believe: The Disappearing American Voter. Strange bedfellows with Rogers that's for sure. I'll check it out.

I don't think the argument that Clinton was unpopular because he wasn't liberal enough is on point. The chief problem that Clinton had was that he was just incoherent, babbling on and on about anything that happened to pop into his head, to the point that he frustrated and confused the public and they had nearly decided that they hated him. His political mistakes, failure to pass health care, were just a manifestation of that bumbling. In '94 someone with credibility told him to shut up, and limit himself to one thematic idea every six months, and that was the turning point.

Yeah, Gingrich made a big mistake shutting down the government but Clinton's comeback had started before that. My gut tells me that a battle over gays in the military, which if I recall correctly was almost the first thing that came up after his election, would have set the tone of his presidency, and would have engendered not just perplexity (which he eventually survived) but an early political mobilization with running start, so that by the time he was ready to change his strategy in '94 he'd have been buried. Under such a scenario it is not a given that the public would have reacted as they did to the Gingrich shutdown, or that Dole would have been the nominee. The prospects of winning have a powerful influence on who takes the risk of running during the primary, how much money they get, what endorsements, etc. And by the time of the shutdown the Ds had their act together.

I have to admit that I don't quite trust Rogers. We used a lot of the survey items he had used in his labor study, when we did our study of labor attitudes in the US and Canada, and found that he had misinterpreted many of his results. He could be right in this case, but my intuition tells me that there was a sort of decisive turning point that would have dealt Clinton out, leading to an entirely different outcome. Hard to prove though. Let's put it this way, if someone were paying me for the advice I would probably be fairly confident about giving my present opinion, without too many qualifications. Anyway, I'll check out the book since they let me have free reign in the library.

--Scott

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Date: Fri, Oct 06, 2000 at 20:08:49 (GMT)
From: Joe
Email: None
To: Scott T.
Subject: Why Clinton Won and Lost
Message:
I think it's Ruy Teixeira? He used to be with AEI, I believe

It is Ruy Teixeira. The book says he is a senior fellow at the Century Foundation. Actually, my brother had Rogers as a professor at UW Law School.

I don't think the argument that Clinton was unpopular because he wasn't liberal enough is on point.

I would agree if that was my point, but that's not my point. My point was that Clinton and the democrats lost support from the white working class in 1994 because they didn't do for the working class what Clinton said they would do when he ran in 1992.

The chief problem that Clinton had was that he was just incoherent, babbling on and on about anything that happened to pop into his head, to the point that he frustrated and confused the public and they had nearly decided that they hated him.

Well, I couldn't disagree more, and you are a minority of one on this one, as far as I can tell. I think Clinton was the best politician in the 20th century, the best communicator, and clearly the best debater. You are the first person I have ever heard describe him as 'incoherent' and 'babbling.' I don't buy that one bit.

His political mistakes, failure to pass health care, were just a manifestation of that bumbling.

Maybe failure to get universal health care was bumbling, and maybe the opposition was just too great. I think it was a combination. But healthcare wasn't the only thing he promised that he didn't do. Heathcare was at least proposed. Tax cuts and economic stimulus weren't. By the way, ending the ban on gays in the military was, in fact, a campaign promise of his in 1992 and he did try to do it right after he took office. So, I can at least give him credit for that. Of course, there was no monetary cost associated with it. Wall Street didn't care.

My gut tells me that a battle over gays in the military, which if I recall correctly was almost the first thing that came up after his election, would have set the tone of his presidency, and would have engendered not just perplexity (which he eventually survived) but an early political mobilization with running start, so that by the time he was ready to change his strategy in '94 he'd have been buried.

Earth to Scott: There WAS a battle over gays in the military almost the first thing after the election. Clinton was right out there ordering lifting of the ban. The only difference was he didn't completely win and he had to back down some. And he WAS buried in 1994. Where were you?

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Date: Fri, Oct 06, 2000 at 13:55:48 (GMT)
From: Scott T.
Email: None
To: Scott T.
Subject: Addendum
Message:
Joe:

I should say that I think Teixeira's thesis in 'The Disappearing American Voter,' that people aren't voting because of the inefficacy of their leaders is spot on. He might well have something to say about the Clinton term that I've overlooked. Then again, all you can do at this point is tell a credible story since we can't exactly run an experiment. The good news is that things *have* changed, though Rogers' thesis that we have a completely new democratic-socialist-friendly politics just ain't so.

--Scott

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Date: Fri, Oct 06, 2000 at 20:24:53 (GMT)
From: Joe
Email: None
To: Scott T.
Subject: Addendum
Message:
And by the time of the shutdown the Ds had their act together.

The Democrats didn't seize power in Congress in reaction to Gingrich's overreaching (the government shutdown being only one example and all of which were extremely unpopular with the public), and they failed because they had locked themselves into a fiscal conservative straightjacket. The Democrats' strategy of supposedly putting any budgetary surplus in a 'lockbox' for Social Security has kept them from taking advantage of a long period of modest economic growth and huge projected budget surpluses to provide the kind of programs that would win over the white working class.

Gore has continued this idea, and that's why I think he is having a harder time capturing the white working class voter. It's why he isn't way ahead of a very unqualified and very conservative Bush in Michigan, Ohio, Wisconsin, Pennsylvania, and the Northwest as he should be, and as Clinton was. Gore has basically just proposed Clintonesque symbolic minimalism and large-scale federal debt reduction.

I think Teixeira and Rogers are absolutely right when they argue that the best strategy, both for workers and Democrats, is to advocate policies that are universal, like Social Security and Medicare, which progressively redistribute income.

Another book I just got on the same subject, though I think it's less electoral-oriented is called The Working Class Majority: America's Best Kept Secret by Michael Zweig, who's an economics professor at SUNY.

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Date: Wed, Oct 04, 2000 at 05:50:12 (GMT)
From: Scott T.
Email: None
To: P-man
Subject: What's so bad about the word 'homophobic'
Message:
P-man:

That is, without a doubt, the most well thought out and well expressed explanation for something that needs no explanation that I've ever read. Did I say that right? Anyway, it stands on it's own as a masterpiece, and even more so because it's unneccessary.

--Scott

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Date: Tues, Oct 03, 2000 at 13:56:48 (GMT)
From: Yves
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: A word with many meanings means nothing
Message:
Homophobia us a confused word. It could means many things.

1) Most people would like it to mean 'gay-basher'.
2) Others use it for someone who's scared of gays.
3) For others, it's used for people who hate gays.
4) Its latin meaning leans towards someone who hates men while...
5) Its greek meaning leans towards someone who hates what is alike.

It don't mean a thing. Meanwhile, back at the ranch, there is no safe way of talking about the cult's attitude towards premies homosexuality.

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Date: Wed, Oct 04, 2000 at 05:59:04 (GMT)
From: Scott T.
Email: None
To: Yves
Subject: A word with many meanings means nothing
Message:
Yves:

And you sir win the award for being the perpetrator of a crime that's so obscure that you were compelled to define it yourself. By the way, I can't figure out whether Bart is complimenting or dissing Homer when he calls him 'gay.'

Scott 'Getting so confused I must be in New York City' T.

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Date: Fri, Oct 06, 2000 at 14:15:08 (GMT)
From: Yves
Email: None
To: Scott T.
Subject: There once was a murder case where the accused ...
Message:
There once was a murder case in England where the accused had an identical twin sister. Since it couldn't be proved which one had done it, the case had to be dismissed.
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Date: Mon, Oct 02, 2000 at 23:12:24 (GMT)
From: Joe
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: What's so bad about the word 'homophobic'
Message:
I agree that 'homophobia' might not encompass all the reasons that gay people are hated, but I do think it is the major one.

There have been a number of studies of people who murder or physically attack gay people, and the primary motivating factor is fear. They fear their own feelings, they fear what this supposed evil force is doing to themselves, their communities, their children, and they fear that they might be perceived as gay if they don't engage in anti-gay beharior etc. So, I think this is why the word has gotten used in a fashion equivalent to how 'racism' is used.

I guess there could be other reasons that gays are hated, but I think the stronger hatred really is based on fear.

And even when it comes to hatred of other races, particularly African Americans, I've also read studies that most white Americans, are, in fact, afraid of blacks, especially black men. And since one tends to hate the things you fear, hatred isn't far behind fear. I think a lot of racism is also actually based on fear.

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Date: Wed, Oct 04, 2000 at 06:03:21 (GMT)
From: Scott T.
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: What's so bad about the word 'homophobic'
Message:
Joe:

I've also read studies that most white Americans, are, in fact, afraid of blacks, especially black men.

But, for some reason, they're less afraid of black gay men.

--Scott 'Trying desperately to keep things straight.' T.

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Date: Tues, Oct 03, 2000 at 02:20:06 (GMT)
From: gerry
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: I'm ascared of black men...
Message:
Especially the ones with heads as big as refrigerators like you see at Key Arena.

But I generally like the guys I worked on the road crew with...

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Date: Mon, Oct 02, 2000 at 23:16:34 (GMT)
From: ham
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: Aren't all attacks based upon labelling someone
Message:
coming from fear?

Isn't it all fear of 'other', an 'outsider'?

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Date: Mon, Oct 02, 2000 at 19:20:33 (GMT)
From: Yves
Email: None
To: PCH
Subject: If previous post was contemptuous...
Message:
If the previous post proved to be in anyway contemptuous, I do humbly beg anyone who mistook it in any way as such to accept my apologies for being unclear about my point.

That being said, my point is the sect is abusive to the point, if information is confirmed, some gay individual has to make beleive he... you get the point, don't you?

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Date: Mon, Oct 02, 2000 at 23:34:47 (GMT)
From: Sir Dave
Email: None
To: Yves
Subject: How times change and I disagree with Joe
Message:
25 years ago you'd have to be NOT married to keep in the upper echelons of DLM or at least have a chance of becoming a great soul (initiator).

I disagree a bit with one of Joe's points about people moving into ashrams to get away from their sexuality. A lot of people just moved into ashrams because they were coerced into it because they were led to believe Maharaji was the Lord. You kind of pushed your sexuality into the background and pretended it wasn't there, not because of any sexual hangup but because it was what the Lord was asking.

When I was in the ashram I never felt that I could talk openly about my constant sexual frustration and bewilderment at being put into this celibate situation. I was relatively sexually inexperienced since I became an ashram premie as a teenager and far from wanting to be celibate, I really wanted to have a sex life.

Most other ashram premies felt the same and that is born out in my masturbation poll where it shows that 50% of ashram premies masturbated in the ashram. None of us really wanted to be monks or nuns but we were caught in a trap and didn't know how to get out of it.

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Date: Mon, Oct 02, 2000 at 23:40:33 (GMT)
From: Joe
Email: None
To: Sir Dave
Subject: Not my suggestion
Message:
Dave,

I wasn't suggesting that everyone moved into the ashrams to avoid sex. But I think the ashrams were a convenient way for people to avoid sexual relationships, as opposed to 'sex' or 'sexuality.' I'm not suggesting that ashram premies weren't sexual, they just couldn't have open sexual relationships with other people.

So, if you are having to deal with being gay, the ashram might be a convenient way to avoid that. The priesthood draws a disproportionate number of homosexuals (some studies say as high as 40%), and I don't see why the ashrams would be any different.

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Date: Tues, Oct 03, 2000 at 00:08:08 (GMT)
From: Sir Dave
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: My point is we DID want sexual relationships
Message:
but it was Maharaji and his ashrams which prevented us from having that. That's why he seperated them into seperate sex ashrams which was obviously pretty futile if you were gay, of course.

Your average ashram premie was a confused mess since he/she was in their twenties or late teens and wanting a sexual relationship but weighed down with Maharaji inspired guilt because of it.

I admit there were the really weird, inhuman ashram premies who never seemed to possess any sexual desires at all but they were in the minority. I think Maharaji's ashrams were different to the Catholic priesthood. A priest knows what he's letting himself in for and has spent time planning his career. The ashram premies were suddenly brainwashed and thrown into an inhuman and alien situation and didn't have time to think about it or even realise what they were letting themselves in for.

They did not choose to go into the ashram - they were forced by guilt and brainwashing to move into it.

In UK ashrams I didn't perceive a higher percentage of gays in ashrams than would be in the normal community. Actually, in Rugby ashram where I once was, there was a thriving gay premie community outside the ashram. OK so it was just a few guys but hey, Rugby is home to the famous Rugby Public (Private) Boarding School - maybe that was it.

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Date: Tues, Oct 03, 2000 at 02:28:35 (GMT)
From: gerry
Email: None
To: Sir Dave
Subject: Whaaaat?
Message:
. That's why he seperated them into seperate sex ashrams

Huh? Separate sex ashrams? This is the first I've heard of this. Was this the norm in North America, too? When did this happen?

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Date: Tues, Oct 03, 2000 at 04:33:30 (GMT)
From: Roger eDrek
Email: drek@oz.net
To: gerry
Subject: Whaaaat?
Message:
Gerry, this separation of the sexes happened on the morning it was discovered that you, yes, you Gerry, had abandoned your ashram vows by crawling under the cloak of darkness out of an upper floor window of the ashram and taking your guitar, the same one used for accompanying arti. And after it was discovered that you had impregnated the ashram housemother during a tryst on the kitchen table lying atop of freshly baked chapatis intended for a visiting mahatma who would later rape ashram sisters throughout the coldest and bleakest provinces of Canada.

Gerry, you'd better keep an eye over your shoulder when you are attending the next Brittney Spears concert at the Key Arena. I've heard tell that a lot of people will never forgive you for starting that chain of events back in... when was that, Ger?

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Date: Tues, Oct 03, 2000 at 15:26:26 (GMT)
From: gerry
Email: None
To: Roger eDrek
Subject: Rog are you mixing me up with that Red Nighty guy?
Message:
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
I had the decency to at least use the basement. And I'm ascared of heights.

One thing I do know fer sure is that premie who said ashram residents were a bunch of lazy free loaders was right...at least about me.

I was fine when we were fixing up the ashram--you know paint a little, meditate some, do a little puttying, eat a applebutter sandwich, scrape some paint, sing arti...

BUT when push came to shove, what did I do ??? Beat a hasty retreat. The ashram was finally looking like something out of Better Homes and Gardens so I had to get a you-know-what. Well I lasted exactly one week with that deal. I spent a miserable forty hours scraping and painting for some contractor guy who answered our ad for work wanted for young men from a 'religious' home. He thought we were mormons or something until I gave him satsang.

Anyway I got my first paycheck, and duly handed it over to the treasurer. The next day I told him the contractor called and said the check was gonna bounce if I didn't get the amount in cash and return it to him. Voila! I had my traveling dough. This was Saturday and on Sunday I crawled out of the FIRST floor window while everybody was snoring under their sheets and hit the road. I hitched to San Francisco and joined the Castro Astros.

Did I tell you this already?

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Date: Tues, Oct 03, 2000 at 20:27:14 (GMT)
From: Roger eDrek
Email: drek@oz.net
To: gerry
Subject: I never tire of hearing your story, Ger
Message:
If only we had pictures of a young Gerry in the ashram or 'religious home'!
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Date: Wed, Oct 04, 2000 at 21:05:24 (GMT)
From: gerry
Email: None
To: Roger eDrek
Subject: Rog, did I ever tell ya about the time...
Message:
the reporter and photographer showed up at the Harrisburg Ashram? No? Oh I did, ok.

Well for others, these people from the Patriot News came ostensibly to do a story on vegetarian cooking. What followed was a sordid cult expose of ritual sex and tantric ceremonies late into the night, or is that tantric sex and ritual ceremonies...

And then they actually did this nice little story about what we ate and included a nice big half page picture of us at our low dining table (sitting indian style, all the guys with ties.)

I'm not sure my folks kept the clipping, though. It sorta announced to the world I was a cult flake. I bet the guys at Erdman Anthony Associates where my ole man was a not-real-liked boss got a good chuckle out that Wednesday's edition of 'Food and Fun.'

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Date: Mon, Oct 02, 2000 at 22:51:59 (GMT)
From: hamzen
Email: None
To: Yves
Subject: Don't take any notice Yves
Message:
Your post was as clear as could be, how anyone could have taken it as anti-gay is way beyond me.

Well you might be lively, and what's wrong with that, but I notice your posts are on my list of must read people, but then I have traveller tendencies so what do I know.

As for gm being anti-gay, it woudn't surprize me, but then he's anti everything apart from himself, so it's probably just par for the course.

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Date: Mon, Oct 02, 2000 at 18:55:25 (GMT)
From: Yves
Email: None
To: PCH
Subject: Please explain how previous post is homophobic.
Message:
As for me being a 'jerk', you needn't justify since I do agree this is what I am. I even am holding a membership card of DLM.

Given either the latin or the greek etimology of the word, I disagree neither the previous post nor myself could be held as 'homophobe' or of 'homophobic' nature. Quite the opposite.

On the other hand, altough I think you are mistaken, I respect you right to pretend it is.

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Date: Mon, Oct 02, 2000 at 17:43:37 (GMT)
From: Yves
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: Michael Dettmers holds silently his secret
Message:
Michael Dettmers failed to answer questions put to him. Let's just repeat them in case he forgot we're still hoping he would quit defending Rawat by keeping information secret:

Educated guesses confirmed every which way we look at it indicate when Michael parted from Rawat, Michael got a big-fat cash settlement plus ownership of an airplane furniture company based in Miami which was built from slave-labour. In exchage for that, we understand Michael signed a non-disclosure agreement which keep him from revealing any information related to Rawat and Michael's involvement with DLM/EV.

In the past, Michael was often asked to level with ex-premies and always failed to do so. This confirms the non-disclosure agreement theory.

Michael's acquisition of some of Rawat's wealth bring me to ask him the following question: 'Who do you think you are fooling?'

While Michael was a DLM fat-ass, mahatma Trivinanand who was known to be a sexual predator was sent by DLM from town to town. Only when he had raped an ashram girl which resulted in her admission to the hospital did Trivinanand have to be wisked back to India to avoid trouble before the court of public opinion. This brings me to ask Michael the following question: 'Why didn't you have Trivinanand sent back to India right after he was known to be a predator?'

From Michael's resumι, we understand Michael helped divert Rawat's wealth to some Swiss bank. This brings me to ask Michael the following question: 'Does the IRS know about it?'

Michael said somewhere he knew right from the start Rawat's self-claimed divinity was a hoax. He even replaced Bob Mishler as CEO of DLM who did not want to go along anymore. This brings me to ask Michael the following question: 'Why did he keep giving devotional public lectures to premies in which he continued to claim Rawat's divinity?'

Again, I would like to invite Michael to cooperate and answer simple uncompromising questions and share information with us off-forum. His failiure to do so may only keep the spotlight on him until the day he is questionned either by a court of law or a news reporter. This brings me to ask Michael the following question: 'When can I expect an answer?'

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Date: Mon, Oct 02, 2000 at 20:46:25 (GMT)
From: Joe
Email: None
To: Yves
Subject: Michael Dettmers Resume
Message:
If I recall correctly, Michael Dettmers had REMOVED the reference to his being the director of a Swiss-based foundation from 1972-1983', because this, he admitted, was a very misleading reference to his work for Divine Light Mission/Elan Vital, and, more particularly for 'The Office Of Guru Maharaj Ji', which Michael headed for a number of years. But, I just checked and it's back. Specifically, on his resume, Michael Dettmers states the following:

As the Managing Director of a Swiss-based Foundation from 1973 to 1982, he organized educational programs and events in over 25 countries. He also managed its world-wide business operations including travel services, event management, health food services, and publications and video productions generating revenues in excess of 100 million dollars in 1982.

Calling those guru-worship festivals we attended 'educational programs and events' is stretching to the point of absurdity.

Also, if Michael claims to be the manager of Divine Light Mission's 'business operations,' does this mean Michael is saying he was in charge of DECA, the project to convert a Boeing 707 complete with gold toilets for the use of the Lord of the Universe? Does Michael therefore take responsibility for the travesties that happened to many people who worked there, including resulting physical injuries?

Also, does Michael therefore claim to have 'managed' the monastic order of Divine Light Mission, i.e. the ashrams, and does he take responsibility for the way they were handled, closed, how the debts were distributed, etc.? Do Michael's clients, or prospective clients ask him about this? Do they know?

Frankly, I'm surprised Michael has put that particular reference back onto his resume. As the manager of all these things, does Michael accept responsbility for the negative things that happened to people under his 'management,' or just for the 100 million dollars?


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Date: Tues, Oct 03, 2000 at 05:50:17 (GMT)
From: JTF
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: Michael Dettmers Resume
Message:
100 million dollars generated in 1982 is an astounding amount. Since it is on a resume, it's probably an exaggeration but I would have thought 10 million would have been a lot to generate...maybe this cult has been very successful in generating bucks.
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Date: Mon, Oct 02, 2000 at 17:26:41 (GMT)
From: Jean-Michel
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: Interesting article on m in some French paper
Message:
Published the week end before his program ....

Libιration du sam 23 et dim 24 ( page Sociιtι )

Maharaj ji chef de secte de passage ΰ Paris

La France, pays de la Mission interministιrielle de lutte contre les sectes, est aussi une terre d'asile...
pour le gourou indien M, dont l'association franηaise Elan Vital figure parmi les 200 groupes sectaires du rapport parlementaire de 1995. Cible privilιgiιe des militants d'extrκme gauche dans les annιes 70, qui menθrent contre lui des actions hostiles, le marchand de New Age arrivera en France en milliardaire, dans son jet privι, pour une journιe confιrence le 25/09.
Tenus ΰ l'ιcart de l'ιvθnement censι attirer prθs de 3000 personnes au palais des Congrθs de la Porte Maillot, ΰ Paris, les mιdias ont ιtι largement informιs de cet atterrissage par d'ex-adeptes qui insistent aujourd'hui sur le goϋt du lucre du maξtre autoproclamι.
Rιservιe aux adeptes dιtenteurs d'une carte de crιdit spιciale Elan Vital, la confιrence devrait, entre autres, comporter des rιponses sur 'la beautι qu'ιprouve le gourou ΰ vivre pleinement sa vie'. Vu ses conditions de dιplacement, on peut imaginer que l'Elan vital induit des transports aussi spirituels que matιriels...

Translator?

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Date: Mon, Oct 02, 2000 at 21:10:07 (GMT)
From: suchabanana
Email: None
To: Jean-Michel
Subject: literal translation here (a bit awkward)
Message:
Release of Sam 23 and dim 24 (Sociιtι page)

Maharaj ji, head of a sect of passage in Paris France, country of the interdepartmental Mission of fight against the sects, is also a ground of asylum... for the guru Indian M, whose French association Vital Elan appears among the 200 sectarian groups of the parliamentary report/ratio of 1995. Privileged target of the militants of the extreme left in the Seventies, which took hostile actions against him, the New Age merchant will arrive in France as a billionaire, in his private jet, for a one day conference the 25/09 (25th of September). Held with the variation of the supposed event to attract nearly 3000 people to the palate of the Congresses of the Gate Shirt, in Paris, the medias were largely informed of this landing by ex-followers who insist today on the taste for money [profit] of the auto-proclaimed Master.

Reserved to the followers - holders of a special credit card Vital Dash, the conference would have, inter alia, to comprise answers on 'the beauty which tests the guru with living one's life' fully.

Considering his [m.'s] conditions of displacement, one can imagine that induced vital Dash of transport as spiritual - also material...

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Date: Mon, Oct 02, 2000 at 21:12:43 (GMT)
From: suchabanana
Email: None
To: suchabanana
Subject: Saturday 23 and Sunday 24 release (Society page)nt
Message:
nt
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Date: Mon, Oct 02, 2000 at 18:58:19 (GMT)
From: Windflower
Email: None
To: Jean-Michel
Subject: Translation Site
Message:
JM,

Here's a translation site:

http://www.systransoft.com/

It appears, perchance erroneously, that m is a protected cult leader. Not sure.

W

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Date: Mon, Oct 02, 2000 at 18:36:54 (GMT)
From: Yves
Email: None
To: Jean-Michel
Subject: And its translation into a popular langage.
Message:
'France where the 'Inter ministerial Mission to fight sects' is held welcomes Maharaji, the indian guru whose French association named Elan-Vital figures on the list of 200 sectarian groups named by the 1995 parlementarian report. The new-age merchant who was a chosen target for far-left groups during the 70's will arrive as billionnaire* in his private jet for a one-day conference held on 09/25th.

Held away from event expected to attract 3000 at Paris' 'Palais des Congrθs de la Porte Maillot', news organisations were widely informed of this landing by ex-adepts who now insist on self-claimed master's wealth-hunger.

Conference being reserved for adepts holding special Elan-Vital credit card should, amongst other things, answer questions about '...beauty felt by guru for fully living one's life'. Taking into account his traveling conditions, one can imagine Elan-Vital brings about material as well as spiritual changes...'

*Given Francs rate of exchange, 'billionnaire' could arguably be translated as 'multi-billionnaire' for the italian reader or 'bloddy-rich-bloke' for the brittish reader.

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Date: Mon, Oct 02, 2000 at 18:40:35 (GMT)
From: Yves
Email: None
To: Yves
Subject: Could JM please update us on Euro policy on cults?
Message:
Preceding text mentions

Inter ministerial Mission to fight sects

and

the list of 200 sectarian groups named by the 1995 parlementarian report.

What is this?

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Date: Mon, Oct 02, 2000 at 17:47:37 (GMT)
From: Way
Email: None
To: Jean-Michel
Subject: Interesting article on m in some French paper
Message:
Vive la France. So glad to see that at least one Western country is officially looking into the problem of cults, and that Elan Vital is included. Is 'la Mission interministerielle contre les sectes' a French national government program, or is it a private organization, or is it headed by some religious groups? Is the French legislature making new laws against cults, and if so, what kind of laws can be established and what kind of actions can be taken?

I know of no other similar efforts being made in any other country. (Of course, we know that China is banning Falun Gong, and we can't advocate that extreme sort of measure in the West).

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Date: Tues, Oct 03, 2000 at 09:53:49 (GMT)
From: Jean-Michel
Email: None
To: Way
Subject: la Mission interministerielle contre les sectes
Message:
is a French national government program.

They don't do much I guess, beside keeping an eye on the main dangerous groups, and publishing reports from time to time.

They're also working on a law project.

This is a big issue in France, and the media like to publish articles and have TV shows from time to time.

There have been quite some actions in court against cult's schools, cults meetings places (people from their neighbourhood), ex-scientologists asking their money back, etc ... Divorced parents when one of them remains in the cult with the kids, etc.

The main idea is that lots of people think cults are a threat for democracy, and christian values. And they think this can be avoided by having new laws. Which I doubt. They don't have any educational project on this issue. And the government is not very much eager in checking those groups' financial systems, when they could !

EV France could very well be closed after an appropriate financial audit IMO, like many other groups. They did some audits in $cientology's offices here, wait for the results.

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Date: Tues, Oct 03, 2000 at 13:55:51 (GMT)
From: Way
Email: None
To: Jean-Michel
Subject: Thanks JM
Message:
At least France is doing something. Simply exposing these cults in the media might be an effective measure. I've tried to get American televisions shows like 'Investigative Reports' interested in Rawat, but no success.
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Date: Mon, Oct 02, 2000 at 21:32:35 (GMT)
From: suchabanana
Email: None
To: Way
Subject: r.e. cult bannins
Message:
In France, the biggest religious cult is the Roman church.

If cults are banned, who decides? A cult is: the guy down the street's church...

What's a cult (or sect)? Amish, Jews, Mormons, Muslims, Moonies, Quakers, Baptists, Atheists, Republicans, Aryan Nations, National Rifle Association, the Church of Monday Night Football, MTV, gender feminism, RV owners, free thinkers, gays/lesbians, straights, computer geeks, ex-premies, premies, non-premies, Sikhs, Hindus, Buddhists, communists, socialists, capitalists, gangsta rappers, groupies, married couples, celibates, environmentalists, meat eaters????

Relativity and subjectivity!

Would you ban one's freedom of association? No way. liberte, egalite, fraternite. (accents on e's) be careful now...

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Date: Wed, Oct 04, 2000 at 14:51:46 (GMT)
From: gerry
Email: None
To: suchabanana
Subject: r.e. cult bannins
Message:
What's a cult (or sect)? Amish, Jews, Mormons, Muslims, Moonies, Quakers, Baptists, Atheists, Republicans, Aryan Nations, National Rifle Association, the Church of Monday Night Football, MTV, gender feminism, RV owners, free thinkers, gays/lesbians, straights, computer geeks, ex-premies, premies, non-premies, Sikhs, Hindus, Buddhists, communists, socialists, capitalists, gangsta rappers, groupies, married couples, celibates, environmentalists, meat eaters????

Cults in this group include Moonies and premies. That's it.

I didn't say you were a ninny, I meant, you risk sounding like one when you play so fast and loose with word definitions. As that right wing cult leader Rush Limbaugh is fond of saying 'words mean things.'

Now defining who is or isn't a cult for purposes of definition is relatively easy, doing so for puposes of banning them is altogether another story. And not my job.

As far as 'catty' yes that describes me to a 'T.' I was all catted up in fact a few minutes ago. One on my feet and the other on my chest (in bed, no less.) And right now, Bocephus is on my lap. Makes it tough to type.

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Date: Wed, Oct 04, 2000 at 13:11:11 (GMT)
From: Scott T.
Email: None
To: suchabanana
Subject: r.e. cult bannins
Message:
such:

You forgot the church-of-the-upside-down-inside-out-bicycle-shorts. You must have seen their flags flying somewhere in July or August, especially if you live in the midwest. Disgraceful.

Banning cults is out of the question in an open society. As you say, there is no objective definition for one thing, and for another it'd be bad policy anyway. For all we know there might be some benefit, as a safety valve or whatever. What you can do is prosecute any group that breaks the law in other areas (as JM points out), educate people about them, support and protect ex-member organizations and whistle blowers, etc.

--Scott

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Date: Wed, Oct 04, 2000 at 19:21:58 (GMT)
From: Such
Email: None
To: Scott T.
Subject: good points (nt)
Message:
nt
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Date: Tues, Oct 03, 2000 at 15:38:41 (GMT)
From: Way
Email: None
To: suchabanana
Subject: r.e. cult bannins
Message:
such,

Are you a member of the ACLU?

I noticed you didn't list the Man-Boy organization.

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Date: Tues, Oct 03, 2000 at 14:59:06 (GMT)
From: gerry
Email: None
To: suchabanana
Subject: r.e. cult bannins
Message:
guess you don't know what a cult is then, banana.

yer fuckin' with language like a new age ninny. bad habit. tsk, tsk, tsk.

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Date: Tues, Oct 03, 2000 at 20:56:35 (GMT)
From: such
Email: None
To: gerry and Way
Subject: tsk tsk tsk: flame names flame games make no gains
Message:
Sorry for any offensive word associations, 'politically incorrect' nomenclature, or semantic anti-cult naivety:

Maybe listing meat-eaters or Republicans, etc. struck a raw nerve somewhere, too, huh?

Way - don't know anything about 'Man-Boy association'. You sound like a veritable expert on the subject. Is that like Catholic school priests, or boy scouts?

gerry - don't know about 'new age ninny.' Yer the expert [bleepin'] here, too. 'tsk tsk tsk' -- sounds catty?

Guys, why not save the methane for the opposition? Otherwise, we can play toddler playground 'rubber and glue'. Dig? Or, por favor: Voudriez-vous parler en francais? Parla italiano? You wanna converse intelligently in multi-syllables, like: pusillanimous antidisestablishmentarianism, perhaps?

I believe in the freedom to make choices -- that aren't harmful for me or anyone else. When the cult of Big Government starts mandating one's non-injurious choices -- then there is no longer personal freedom. So, if you prefer -- move to communist China (where personal choices are persecuted), or become a fascist, cult deprogrammer-kidnapper. You have those choices, too.

Relativity and subjectivity enter into one's personal judgments and conceptual labelling. Otherwise, we can just try posting a list of 100% unanimous, permissible anti-cult speak. Go figure... Bye Bye. I've got some real work to do today.

Peace

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Date: Wed, Oct 04, 2000 at 14:54:23 (GMT)
From: gerry
Email: None
To: such and Scott
Subject: what's so tough about defining a cult?
Message:
My point is there are cults and then there religions and organizations.

I believe in the freedom to make choices -- that aren't harmful for me or anyone else.

This is certainly a more considered position then your previous post indicates. Of course here you would have to apply some of that 'subjectivity and personal judgement.'

So if you think a group is 'harmful' would you consider banning them?

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Date: Wed, Oct 04, 2000 at 14:39:08 (GMT)
From: Way
Email: None
To: such
Subject: drawing the line
Message:
such,

I was just wondering where you draw the line. You talked initially as if society is duty bound to accept whatever. Now I see you add the qualification 'do no harm.' Well, that's still a little nebulous, and society can't afford to be that nebulous. The lines have to be specifically drawn.

One example of what I'm trying to point out:
(making the news last month and I thought you might be familiar with this case):

NAMBLA, the North American Man/Boy Love Association, opening advocates sexual love between older men and pre-pubescent boys. They publish a newsletter for their members. One of their members in Boston kidnapped a neighborhood boy, molested and killed him. The boy's parents are suing NAMBLA for their role, not in advocating murder, of course, but in supporting their members interests in young boys. The ACLU has taken a stand in this civil suit, in favor of NAMBLA, against the parents. Freedom of speech, right?

I'm just wondering where you stand? From what you have said so far, everybody has the right to make their own choices. But what about the choice to carry concealed weapons? The choice to walk pitbulls along Venice Beach? The choice to tell people that they should commit suicide in order to catch a ride on a passing comet? Can society inact preventive measures, or do we have to wait until the dog actually bites?

The problem with your stance is that gurus just keep on getting away with fraud and murder, and society stands by and watches, tying their own hands behind their backs. As I already said, I'm not advocating bans like the Chinese have. But we've got to do something.

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Date: Wed, Oct 04, 2000 at 15:31:35 (GMT)
From: gerry
Email: None
To: suchaban anda Way
Subject: Harmful Cults: Characteristics (cut n paste job)
Message:

Characteristics of a Destructive Cult:

1. Authoritarian pyramid structure with authority at the top

2. Charismatic or messianic leader(s) (Messianic meaning they either say they are God OR that they alone can interpret the scriptures the way God intended.....the leaders are self-appointed.)

3. Deception in recruitment and/or fund raising

4. Isolation from society -- not necessarily physical isolation like on some compound in Waco, but this can be psychological isolation -- the rest of the world is not saved, not Christian, not transformed (whatever) -- the only valid source of feedback and information is the group

5. Use of mind control techniques (we use Dr. Robert Jay Lifton's criteria from chapter 22 of his book 'Thought Reform & the Psychology of Totalism' to compare whether the eight psychological and social methods he lists are present in the group at question)

Mileu Control: Control of the environment and communication within the environment

Mystical Manipulation: Seeks to promote specific patterns of behavior and emotion in such a way that it appears to have arisen spontaneously from within the environment, while it actually has been orchestrated totalist leaders claim to be agents chosen by God, history, or some supernatural force, to carry out the mystical imperative the 'principles' (God-centered or otherwise) can be put forcibly and claimed exclusively, so that the cult and its beliefs become the only true path to salvation (or enlightenment)

Demand for Purity: The world becomes sharply divided into the pure and the impure, the absolutely good (the group/ideology) and the absolutely evil (everything outside the group) one must continually change or conform to the group 'norm'; tendencies towards guilt and shame are used as emotional levers for the group's controlling and manipulative influences

Confession: Cultic confession is carried beyond its ordinary religious, legal and therapeutic expressions to the point of becoming a cult in itself sessions in which one confesses to one's sin are accompanied by patterns of criticism and self-criticism, generally transpiring within small groups with an active and dynamic thrust toward personal change

Sacred Science: The totalist milieu maintains an aura of sacredness around its basic doctrine or ideology, holding it as an ultimate moral vision for the ordering of human existence questioning or criticizing those basic assumptions is prohibited a reverence is demanded for the ideology/doctrine, the originators of the ideology/doctrine, the present bearers of the ideology/doctrine offers considerable security to young people because it greatly simplifies the world and answers a contemporary need to combine a sacred set of dogmatic principles with a claim to a science embodying the truth about human behavior and human psychology

Loading the Language: Words are given new meanings -- the outside world does not use the words or phrases in the same way -- it becomes a 'group' word or phrase

Doctrine Over Person: If one questions the beliefs of the group or the leaders of the group, one is made to feel that there is something inherently wrong with them to even question -- it is always 'turned around' on them and the questioner/criticizer is questioned rather than the questions answered directly the underlying assumption is that doctrine/ideology is ultimately more valid, true and real than any aspect of actual human character or human experience and one must subject one's experience to that 'truth' the experience of contradiction can be immediately associated with guilt one is made to feel that doubts are reflections of one's own evil when doubt arises, conflicts become intense

Dispensing of Existence: Since the group has an absolute or totalist vision of truth, those who are not in the group are bound up in evil, are not enlightened, are not saved, and do not have the right to exist; impediments to legitimate being must be pushed away or destroyed one outside the group may always receive their right of existence by joining the group; fear manipulation -- if one leaves this group, one leaves God or loses their salvation/transformation, or something bad will happen to them; the group is the 'elite', outsiders are 'of the world', 'evil', 'unenlightened', etc


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Date: Wed, Oct 04, 2000 at 19:24:14 (GMT)
From: such
Email: None
To: gerry
Subject: good job - please read Scott T.'s post above (nt)
Message:
nt
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Date: Mon, Oct 02, 2000 at 17:08:30 (GMT)
From: Elan Vital
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: Response to Mr. Showcase
Message:
Dear Mr. Showcase:

Thank you for your recent inquiry.

Elan Vital has a policy against discrimination in several areas, the most important of which is that we do not discriminate against obscenely rich people. In this day and age, this is one group that most needs protection against discrimination. That's why we do not believe it is appropriate to comment on Maharaji's obviously successful lifestyle, although we do digress from that position to say that Maharaj is unlike anyone else, in that he has gazillions of dollars but really is not into that money and all that it buys and is not attached to it. He could just take it or leave it, really. That's part of what makes him an enigma.

In this regard, one of Maharaji's role models in Imelda Marcos. Do you think she was really attached to those 4,000 pairs of shoes she owned? Elan Vital does not believe there is anything wrong with having 4,000 pairs of shoes, and those starving citizens of the Philippines who were complaining about Imelda's obviously successful lifestyle, were just lacking in that understanding that Imelda wasn't attached to those shoes and they should have beeen following Elan Vital's policy of not judging anyone else's lifestyle. Just who do those people think they are? Maharaji's only real criticism of Imelda Marcos was that she lacked the synchronization to adequately plan for enough closet space. This is something Maharaji has not overlooked, however, in planning the remodeling of his delapidated house in one of the poorest sections of Malibu. Remember, he showed a lot of intelligence and ingenuity in taking apart toys at an early age, and actually juggled being worship as god and going to the 9th grade at the same time, with great synchronization, we might add.

Being the enigma that he is, and despite the fact that he has gotten progressively richer, while with great synchronicity he has at the same time become even less attached to those riches, we wouldn't be surprised if Maharaji just chucked his entire successful lifestyle one of these days, because, really, he couldn't care less. Yessir, any one of these days now, probably about the time hell freezes over, Maharaji might just give it all up and go to work at Pizza Hut. That's because he is an enigma and always does the unexpected.

So, Elan Vital doubts Maharaji holds any grudge against the ashram premies, who were basically sponges siphoning off Maharaji's meager resources, doing things like buying food and underwear. Although Elan Vital does not judge poor people either, we do think those complainers have a lot of nerve commenting on how Maharaji lives, when they were running around squandering his resources int that way, and for not being grateful for being saved from DRUG CULTURE. For them to complain about having to pay of debt is, well, indicative of people who are still living under a Hindu concept or something.

No, Maharaji is just too kind, and we think someone one time might have described him that way, to ever criticize those people. But do they appreciate that? Not according to what we read on the Internet! Elan Vital is not in a position to judge, and we believe in free speech, but these ingrates are real bastards, although we say that in the most nonjudgmental context.

If you would like to know anything more about what Maharaji is like, including other enigmatic things he has done like not claiming to be God, we would be happy to give you that information. You can get it by contacting Elan Vital, which is not a cult, and continues to this day to differ from a cult in a number of significant ways, at ElanVital@wearenotacult/wereallyaren't.org.

Yours in synchronization and leaderless teams of volunteers:

Elan Vital

ELAN VITAL: ABSOLUTELY NOT A CULT SINCE 1971

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Date: Mon, Oct 02, 2000 at 17:05:47 (GMT)
From: Joe
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: The Ashrams Closing -- Reprise
Message:
I'm bringing this post up top because I think it's extremely important. Down below, on the subject of the ashrams and ashram debt, the closing of the ashrams in 1983 was discussed. G wrote an excellent post in which he described how it happened where he was. I can add the following:

1. I was around in the ashram at least through the first 'ashram purge' if there was more than one. This was actually in 1981 on the West Coast, and as I have described, it was inflicted on the ashram premies by David Smith. I think a couple of people were basically kicked out of the ashram, but the rest of us seemed to just double out committment to the ashrams. If anything, it made the ashrams seem MORE important, that they were a permanent institution. Smith said he was personally directed by Maharaji to 'clean up the ashrams.' It's clear that Maharaji was personally involved in this. Clearly, also, at this point the ashram premies were implicitly being blamed for being failures at being ashram premies. Hence, the idea that the ashrams had to be 'cleaned up.'

2. Then, about a year later, in 1982, where I lived there was also an 'elite' ashram set up and only certain ashram premies, selected by another initiator (the sweet but incredibly spacy and saccarine Sally Reeder), were allowed to live there. Being that at that point I was becoming a bit recalcitrant and questioning, at least passively, I, like G, was not selected to live in the 'elite' ashram. My feeling at the time was that I was relieved to stay where I was, partly because the most uptight and holier-than-thou ashram premies all lived to go to the 'elite' ashram, and I felt a lot more compatible with the ashram premies who remained.

BTW - the 'elite' ashram didn't last long. I, like G, also quietly chuckled under my breath when it failed, I think partly because this group (both men and women) were all so premie-ambitious, that they just couldn't get along.

3. Finally, by early 1983, right before I left, I think the ashram premies started being a little more independent, and, to that extent, I also recall some relaxing of the 'ashram rules.' They started handling their own money, and just contributing to a central fund for the ashram. But that was a very short-lived thing. I left in March, 1983, and at that time, the ashrams were still considered an on-going institution.

Anyhow, these are G's comments in response to my questions. The general impression G gives is that not much was ever really explained to the ashram premies about what was happening, except that it was. Also, he makes it clear that Maharaji stayed behind the scenes and took no direct responsiblity, which seems to be a pattern with him. Thanks again, G.

_________________________________

...what happened in the closing of your ashram? Specifically, can you tell us, how you were first told the ashram was closing and what the explanation was?

Where I lived, first there was a loosening of the ashram rules. Premies established their own bank accounts, and - Oh my God! - men and women actually lived in the same house. If premies wanted to leave the ashram, that was suddenly considered ok, in fact, it was now encouraged, whereas before you would go to the equivalent of Hell. There was some spin put on the whole thing, but I don't remember the details, it was all bewildering.
There was also an ashram 'purge' during which a large number of ashram premies were now pressured - not just encouraged - to move out, and individual ashrams were closed. 'Purge' was actually a word that was used. The supposed idea was that the ashram was being 'cleaned up', purged of ashram premies deemed inferior, leaving only the so-called elite. I was kicked out of one ashram, I went to live at another, then that one was told to close. I think there was a deadline given.

I don't remember being told during this period that 'the ashram' as an institution was going to be shut down completely.

One thing I was told - by an 'ordinary' ashram premie - was that 'Maharaji' wanted us to be 'more normal'. That was about it. There was no mention of the reasons that Dettmers wrote about. It seems like a 'blame (and insult) the victim' strategy was taken. The 'more normal' wording implied that ashram premies were abnormal. Ok, we were, but why? It wasn't my idea to move into an ashram.

Rawat said later that it was 'an experiment that didn't work' and 'mistakes were made'. Saying that it was 'an experiment' suggests that he didn't know what the outcome would be, which doesn't fit with his coy (and not so coy) implications of being all-knowing, nor with his claims of being 'the Master'. Who set up the failed experiment? He did. He told people to move in. He wrote the ashram manual. He was the head of the whole thing. What 'didn't work' meant was never described, nor was 'mistakes were made'. Maybe one thing he meant was that the ashrams weren't giving him enough money. There did seem to be a trend towards giving less money to DLM and Rawat, maybe that pissed him off.

The whole affair was very confusing and painful. First I was pressured into the ashram, then kicked out. Why do I say I was pressured to move in? Because Rawat said that he wanted all single premies to move in the ashram, and whatever he wanted was perceived as pressure. He was making it out like, if you want to 'realize Knowledge', you move in the ashram. I perceived him as the authority figure, the expert, so I moved in. There's a book called 'You're Smarter Than They Make You Feel' that describes how 'experts' intimidate us. I think I'll post about it.

I had very mixed feelings about the closing, I was both relieved and deeply hurt.

When I heard that the 'elite' ashram was closed, instead of blaming Rawat, I thought, 'It serves them right.' Rawat is very slick at casting the blame on others.

Who coordinated the closing of the ashram -- dividing up the debt, etc.

It didn't seem coordinated. Where I was, the debt just ended up being paid by the persons who officially owed the debt.

Did you get anything directly from Maharaji, like a letter, a video, or was there ever an ashram meeting in which Maharaji disclosed this?

I don't remember any letter or video or meeting like that, nor do I remember being told that it was 'Maharaji' himself who explicitly ordered the ashram closed. There was no statement made like 'forget about those vows', no explicit release from the vows, just that he wanted us to be 'more normal'. It was more implied than actually stated, whereas before the vows were explicit. That was confusing for people used to being told what to do. I think the closing was made out to be, well, 'Maharaji' wants us to be 'more normal', so we should close the ashrams, it's us premies that are closing the ashrams, not him. It seemed like it was made out to be our fault that the ashram didn't 'work', that we were - in response to his gentle guidance - admitting our failure. Rawat likes to pretend at times that he's so laissez-faire, that way, he doesn't have to take the blame.

When I was in the ashram, there was a lot of talk about having the ashram 'ready' for a visit by him. Premies would dream about him visiting their ashram. It never happened, even when he was in town. I think it served him well for the premies to keep dreaming. He acted like we were not worthy of him.

I can't imagine the ashrams had much in the way of assets. Most of the ashrams were rentals, and maybe there was some furniture and a few decrepit cars, but I can't imagine there was much else.

That was about it, not all the cars were decrepit, but I think they were all used economy cars. Still, for an ashram premie, that seemed like a lot.

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Date: Mon, Oct 02, 2000 at 21:45:28 (GMT)
From: P-man
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: The Ashrams Closing -- Reprise
Message:
I didn't get a chance to read G's post but your response was revealing. Maharaji really is a flim-flam man.
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Date: Mon, Oct 02, 2000 at 20:02:12 (GMT)
From: Joe
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: Some Additional Comments/Questions
Message:
Thanks again, G. I had a few additional questions about the process of closing Maharaji's ashrams in 1983. Specifically, you said:

If premies wanted to leave the ashram, that was suddenly considered ok, in fact, it was now encouraged, whereas before you would go to the equivalent of Hell.

Did the premies have suspicions about this? About whether it was coming directly from Maharaji or not? I say this because in 1976 there was a similar encouragement for premies to move out of the ashrams, supposedly at Maharaji's direction, but then later, Maharaji made all kinds of derrogatory comments about how spaced out the premies were, that they just got confused, and how they should never have left the ashrams. I wonder if ashram premies might have wondered if the same thing was happening again.

Did you or anyone else complain about the ashram closing? Did anyone complain about how the debts were divided up? Did anyone make demands that Maharaji specifically tell them that this is what he wanted?

Who, specifically, told the ashram premies about this? Was it initiators? Was it community coordinator? Who? Who, specifically performed the 'purge' and used that word?

When Mahararji said the ashrams were 'an experiment that didn't work,' was he speaking at a program or somthing? Was that in response to a question?

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Date: Tues, Oct 03, 2000 at 02:15:53 (GMT)
From: Tonette
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: 'An experiment that didn't work'
Message:
I heard that with my own ears at a program in Washinton,d.c. motel. It was during a question and answer period circa 1980's. Can't remember the exact year but I was there and he said it. And I might add very little else to the premie's question.
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Date: Mon, Oct 02, 2000 at 21:03:54 (GMT)
From: G
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: Some Additional Comments/Questions
Message:

If premies wanted to leave the ashram, that was suddenly considered ok, in fact, it was now encouraged, whereas before you would go to the equivalent of Hell.

Did the premies have suspicions about this? About whether it was coming directly from Maharaji or not?

I don't know, it's hard to remember. I think there might have been some phone feeds with Maharaji talking. I think the general feeling was that it was coming from him.

I think there might have been some spin like 'only people who really want to be in the ashram should be in the ashram'. That was during the 'purge', which I think was different than the purge you wrote about.

Did you or anyone else complain about the ashram closing? Did anyone complain about how the debts were divided up?

I didn't. I don't know if anyone else did.

Did anyone make demands that Maharaji specifically tell them that this is what he wanted?

Not that I know of. I think the way die-hard ashram types dealt with it was to figure they would unofficially live an ashram lifestyle at their new place. There was one pseudo-ashram. I don't think that lasted long for anyone, at least I hope not. Maybe a few lived that way for a couple of years.

After the ashrams closed, there was a time (maybe about a year?) when local programs were infrequent and hardly anyone went to them. It almost seemed like the whole thing was going to fold.

Who, specifically, told the ashram premies about this? Was it initiators? Was it community coordinator? Who? Who, specifically performed the 'purge' and used that word?

I don't remember specifically who I heard what from. I think there was an 'ashram coordinator' who was involved, as well as initiators and maybe the community coordinator. I think the 'ashram coordinator' was the main one to carry out the orders, and that's maybe who I heard the 'purge' word from.

When Mahararji said the ashrams were 'an experiment that didn't work,' was he speaking at a program or somthing? Was that in response to a question?

I think I vaguely remember him saying that but I don't remember the circumstances. I do remember him saying 'mistakes were made' in response to a question.

Another spin was that he only started up the ashrams again because some premies kept bugging him to, like it really wasn't his idea. That's certainly not the impression I got in the ashram meeting where he talked!

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Date: Mon, Oct 02, 2000 at 21:13:12 (GMT)
From: Joe
Email: None
To: G
Subject: Some Additional Comments/Questions
Message:
Another spin was that he only started up the ashrams again because some premies kept bugging him to, like it really wasn't his idea. That's certainly not the impression I got in the ashram meetings where he talked!

Me neither. I remember Maharaji specifically rewarded some of the ashram premies, making them initiators, because they hadn't left the ashram in 1976. I also don't recall anyone demanding that the ashrams be reopened. Maharaji made it very clear that he wanted as many premies as possible to live in the ashrams and dedicate their lives to him. That was completely clear. At what point he whimsically changed his mind, who knows?

But I guess the question is, how many people would have lived in the ashram in the first place if it was just an 'experiment' and why weren't we ever told that was what it was?

Elan Vital makes it sound like the only reason people are complaining was that they didn't WANT the ashrams to close -- that they were attached to the Hindu tradition of ashram. This is, of course, nonsense. The reason people are upset is that Maharaji coerced us to move into the ashram, and then dumped the ashram premies a few years later, saying it was all just an 'experiment.' It wouldn't have been such a big deal, except people wasted years of their lives living in something that was just an 'experiment.'

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Date: Tues, Oct 03, 2000 at 03:01:06 (GMT)
From: Roger eDrek
Email: drek@oz.net
To: Joe
Subject: Joe, can you show me the money?
Message:
Joe, up in my 7 million dollar yacht post I briefly mention the ashrams and a possible business reason for closing them. The business reason being that the ashrams might not be profitable and might actually be a huge liability.

And by liability I mean a huge looming deferred liability in the area of medical, dental, and other quality of life concerns like disability and retirement. And while most ashram residents were very young at the time, the Buddhist eventuality is that everyone gets poor, old, sick, and dies. How could Maharaji, his Divine Light Mission advisors not recognize the obvious? Surely, Divine Light Mission Mother India might have had ashram residents in retirement age. Also, wasn't the perpetual promise of the ashram to be a place of permanent life-long shelter?

I would argue that premies making this extreme commitment to the ashram lifestyle did so with some reliance that the ashram would be there for them when they no longer had anything to give - aka in old age. Afterall, we are talking giving one's entire paycheck and being told what to do and where to go and really surrendering all control of one's life and making a very huge personal sacrifice like not pursuing a career or a family.

Some questions:

Did ashram premies have health insurance?

Were the medical and dental needs of ashram premies taken care of?

What happened to ashram premies who for some medical reason became permanently unable to work or disabled?

What happended to ashram premies who became very ill and needed expensive medical treatments or care?

How much money did the ashrams generate for Divine Light Mission and Maharaji personally?

What percentage of all ashram residents paychecks went to the care of the ashram residents needs, the local community, the national organization, and finally Maharaji and his entourage?

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Date: Tues, Oct 03, 2000 at 18:08:52 (GMT)
From: Joe
Email: None
To: Roger eDrek
Subject: Some estimates
Message:
I can't speak for all of the ashrams, but I lived in a number of them, and this is generally how it worked.

Did ashram premies have health insurance?
Were the medical and dental needs of ashram premies taken care of?

By and large the ashram premies did not have health insurance. A few may have had it through their jobs, but most didn't, because they worked very low-level jobs, mostly. I recall when I got sent to San Francisco, I got a job that actually had health and dental benefits. Since my poor teeth had not been attended to in years of ashram living, I utilized the insurance to have a lot of dental work done, because there was never any money in the ashrams I lived in for dental work.

The medical and dental needs of the ashram premies were very inadequately taken care of. Fortunately, most of us were young and so we didn't have very many emergency needs. I recall in San Antonio, we had to go the the public clinic at this seedy county hospital if we needed care. One time, doing 'service,' I gouged my let with a chain saw. True, and I still have the scar. I remember going to this clinic and back again to get and have stiches removed. It was so humiliating because you had to tell them you were a monastic and had no income for them to give you services.

If someone had an emergency need, they would get treatment. It was in the area of regular check-ups and non-emergency care where the treatment was very inadequate. Any condition that you could live with, you basically had to.

What happened to ashram premies who for some medical reason became permanently unable to work or disabled?
What happended to ashram premies who became very ill and needed expensive medical treatments or care?

I know of a couple of cases where ashram premies had some kind of chronic illness and had to leave the ashram and go live with their parents. Also, sometimes people were sent to a 'sick ashram' sort of place. The Broadripple Hotel in Miami was one of these. It was full of ashram premies with various illnesses. But it seemed to me that many of these were psychosomatic. Lots of hypoglycemia, and chronic fatigue, etc. I'm not saying these weren't real illnesses, but I suspect much of it came from the very unhealthy environment of the cult. After all, Maharaji basically told us we were worthless slime without his grace, that we had an evil mind, that we needed to be purified, and that we were entirely dependent on a little fat guy from India who did not even know we were alive. I think there were a number of people who just couldn't cope and got sick.

Also, in line with this 'purification' idea, premies were always going on all kinds of purification diets and fasts, that probably did more harm than good. I remember during one period I did a lot of various kinds of fasts, and for at least a year, I fasted every Tuesday. It was nuts, but that was the mindset. This probably made people pretty sick.

I remember in one ashram I lived in, it was decided that we would all go on a 'raw foods' diet, so we could purify our bodies for service to the Lord of the Universe. So, we ate salads, drank carrot juice, ate fruit, etc. I was, at that time, running a produce department in a supermarket, unloading cases of lettuce, etc. I lost about 30 pound in about a month. I remember one day I collapsed on the floor of the store. But boy, I felt high and very 'purified.'

The IHQ premies and the initiators got better treatment for medical needs. In Denver and Miami, there were premie doctors and dentists, but they mostly lacked most equipment, etc. Plus, there was a lot of herbal and diet fads dispensed by various quack 'experts' among the premie community.

How much money did the ashrams generate for Divine Light Mission and Maharaji personally?
What percentage of all ashram residents paychecks went to the care of the ashram residents needs, the local community, the national organization, and finally Maharaji and his entourage?

In the early years, the ashrams were all kind of financially plugged into Elan Vital. Like Monmot said, whatever wasn't spent by the ashram went directly to DLM. And, as Mishler says in his interview, most of the money going to DLM actually went to support Maharaji, because he basically spent money like water. Since most of the money went to his luxurious lifestyle, and getting Malibu mansions, million-dollar yachts, luxury cars, and racks of $10,000 suits, there wasn't much left for DLM to do much, and hence the fundraising was unrelentling.

I remember before Millennium, there was a big push to reduce ashram expenses to leave more money for 'the most significant event in the history of humanity.' At one point, the Chicago ashram was blissed out that it had reduced its food costs to 35 cents per ashram premie per day. I am not kidding you. People ate a lot of brown rice. This was back when the ashrams were legally a monastic order with the IRS. The IRS disallowed that around 1975, so things changed and the ashrams weren't so direcly connected after that.

Later, the ashrams were a little more separate from Elan Vital. In the ashrams I lived in, we sent 10% of our income to Elan Vital. I think 35% of this money remained in the local community and 65% went to national headquarters. In the communities I lived in, the ashram was always the biggest source of income for the community, even though many of the community premies also donated.

Then, we sent an additional 10% of our income directly to Maharaji, and sometimes more. As housefather, I recall writing checks out to 'Guru Maharaj Ji' and mailing it to a P.O. Box in Malibu. I remember every month an ashram premie had the blissful service of making or purchasing a card that we put the check in and sent it off.

Then, there were usually 'special projects' that we had to contribute to. The biggest one was the Boeing 707 plane project, which was falsely called the 'world tour.' We contributed $40 per ashram premie, per month for this as well.

Then, the ashrams usually supported the Initiators, their food, clothing (they liked silk blouses and shirts), transportation, and they also seemed to make a lot of really expensive long distance phone calls.

The ashrams also usually supported at least one Elan Vital employee, usually the community coordinator. I used to also give the ashram premies cash to drop into the barrels when there was a darshan line at a festival.

As to the actual amounts, I recall in San Francisco, the brothers' ashram was pretty well off by ashram standards. I think we had a monthly income of about $20,000 (this was 1980), and we contributed every month $2000 to Elan Vital, $2000 to Maharaji, and about $1000 for 'special projects.' I would say the ashram probably donated about $1,000 in cash at each darshan line.

I recall that the rent on the ashram was $2500 per month, which was quite a lot in those days, and we spent a big chunk of money going to festivals, paying the entrance fees, hotel costs, etc. The rest of the money went to support the ashram and the community coordinator, and the initiators, etc.

As housefather, I really tried to keep the ashram out of debt, but I recall we had as much as $15,000 in credit card debt at one time, not counting auto loans, etc. I was particularly concerned because this debt was almost entirely in my name. I can't recall if there was any debt by the time I left in 1983. At least I don't think there was any debt on my credit cards at that time.

I do recall that two of the ashram cars was registered in my name and had loans in my name. I was very worried that the ashram wouldn't continue to make the payments, so I demanded that I make the payments myself and that the ashram send me the payment every month. I recall once or twice going to pick up the check at the ashram. After the ashram closed, one premie took possession of one vehicle that wasn't paid off yet and eventually paid off the loan. I was relieved at that point, and I just signed the car over to him.

I recall in Chicago I bought a car in my name, and then got sent to Miami. I remember getting a call from the bank saying the car loan was past due and asking why I wasn't with my car. It was a blot on my credit rating, but eventually the car did get paid off, and I signed it over to somebody else.

So, I would estimate that we spent about 35% of the ashram income on contributions to Elan Vital, Maharaji and to his 'special projects.' An additional amount was spent on supporting the initiators and community coordinator. The rest went to basic living expenses and going to festivals, which was probably the biggest single expense.

Also, keep in mind, that the ashram premies were always 'doing service' for various fundraisers as well. The biggest ones included selling flowers on the streets before Mother's Day, Easter, and Memorial Day. In this respect we had the privilege of behaving just like the Moonies. Such fun.


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Date: Tues, Oct 03, 2000 at 05:16:36 (GMT)
From: Monmot
Email: None
To: Roger eDrek
Subject: Joe, can you show me the money?
Message:
Roger:

I can answer a couple of your questions. I never lived in the ashram because I had a school loan so I was ineligible to move into an ashram. There was a system set up for a few years where people who wanted to live in the ashram, but couldn't for whatever reason, lived in ashram-style premie houses. This was called the Divine Community Project. Basically, these premies lived exactly like ashram residents, following the rules, turning over their paychecks, etc. I was the treasurer in my city of the Divine Community Project. The account was consistently 'zeroed out' by the treasurer of DLM, so they could give all the money to Maharaji. Whenever I spoke up about the way things were run, I was told, 'You're not meditating, sister.' It was not a pretty picture.

When the DCP finally folded, I got stuck with thousands of dollars in debt, mainly because a lot of accounts etc. were in my name. Screwed my credit and set me back for years trying to live and pay off those debts.

So, that said, here's some answers to some of your questions.

Were the medical and dental needs of ashram premies taken care of?

Usually ashram premies went to free clinics for medical care, and for dental care, they went to dental school clinics where dental students 'practiced' on the patients who showed up at their clinic. I had some dental work done which I had to repair years later (and am in the process of doing now).

What happened to ashram premies who for some medical reason became permanently unable to work or disabled?

I know of a couple of cases where ashram premies who became seriously ill were asked to leave the ashram. There might have been exceptions to this, but I don't know of them.

What happended to ashram premies who became very ill and needed expensive medical treatments or care?

Ditto from above question.

M

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Date: Tues, Oct 03, 2000 at 20:38:32 (GMT)
From: Roger eDrek
Email: drek@oz.net
To: Monmot
Subject: Great answers. Thanks!
Message:
Paints a real nice compassionate picture of someone who has a 7 million dollar yacht and threw fits when he couldn't get what he wanted when he wanted.

Maharaji, you are a unscrupulous parasite.

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Date: Fri, Oct 06, 2000 at 14:10:15 (GMT)
From: Helen
Email: None
To: Roger eDrek,Joe, G etc
Subject: Great answers. Thanks!
Message:
Great thread. Yeah, pretty amazing. Premies paid with their bodies (health problems) for the privilege of living in M's ashram. They took their vows seriously, were encouraged to NOT live by worldy standards, and then were thrown out in such a casual way, told that they needed to be more 'normal'.

I think this issue makes me the most angry of all the issues associated with M. It's really digusting. What did the ashram premies get for all their devotion? occasional feelings of bliss and peace mixed in with the bitterness of being indentured servants to a contemptuous Master.

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Date: Mon, Oct 02, 2000 at 15:08:23 (GMT)
From: Janet of Venice Beach
Email: Jai_Choix@webtv.net
To: Jethro 'JW' and readers
Subject: my name ridiculed at Roger's House of M Drek
Message:
This is to JW, and all who may have read his transcription of my first posting here in sept 99.bear with me as i use this as a forum to clear my name, thanks to his completely wrong reading of who and how i am:I quote his entry::Janet, 'an aging remnant of the 60's flower power revolution'(*1) and a long time follower of Maharaji 'is living in her 1967 VW Microbus on the streets of Venice, California'(*2). Stuck somewhere between the promised good times of a previous era and the harsh and cold reality of the streets under constant threat of senseless violence and police harassment, Janet's only hope, Maharaji, 'is through an Internet connection of the modern world when she visits the local Radio Shacks and other appliance dealers where commissioned sales clerks allow her to use WebTV on their floor models'(*3). Janet has an account on WebTV and surfs the net and checks her email 'while the salesperson is distracted by her street punk friend, Sparrow, a known user of methamphetamines.' Maharaji is more aloof than ever, unreachable and completely insulated in his pampered cocoon.' Janet, no longer welcome to do service at the Malibu residence'(*4) is desperately seeking to rekindle a link to better times that she experienced long ago in a far off and distant universe of love and kindness.(*5) Janet is hoping that her Lord will notice her plight and respond and return life to normalcy. But, Janet cannot email Maharaji from his website as she is trapped as it loops in endless senseless commands as WebTV chokes on all of those damn cookies Maharaji is trying to shove down it's throat. Desperate, Janet resorts to one of those sick, hate-filled ex-premie websites and posts her plea to her Lord, hoping that he is a regular visitor. And along comes JW with some hope, but what JW offers is a futuristic vision of a world of Maharaji devotion. Date: Wed, Sep 22, 1999 at 13:32:16 (EDT)From: JethroEmail: To: AllSubject: To MaharajiMessage:I just found this message on a premie/ex-premie website at http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Ithaca/8154/ -------------------okayQUESTION ONE--IS THIS A HATE FILLED BOARD?allow me to correct your imagination of me.i'm 48.(1: i dont drive, never did,have never owned- nor resided in- a vehicle.I was in a car crash at age 9, never shook it off.Mother drove a corvair, drunk. ask Ralph Nader about corvairs.(2:I live in a victorian house with my 22 year old son, and we pay our rent and bills, rock solid, every month, on time, as I have done for 18 years. I have credit too. I don't think i ever gave MJ a dime in all my years, honestly. not even now. He doesnt need it. I do.(3:i own my webtv. my son owns his. we pay our ISP rates ev month on time. i'm not a 60's leftover. by the time i graduated hi school the 60's were over.(4: i have NEVER, in all my 27 years of Knowledge, EVER, been allowed to go do service at the residence!I must be some kinda powerful person to be not wanted that bad! I'm touched by it, really.(5: i am a brutal realist. who among you out there has endured having your child kidnapped by your family, and being locked in a mental hospital for your life in Knowledge? who among you came out of that to be taken to a deprogrammer? who among you was put on a razor edge and told to choose between motherhood and Knowledge before a judge (deny me thrice...)? who among you has battled clinical depression for 22 years without medication? how bout locked environment behavior mod?? and superceded it? i know who i am. i know what i am. i'm still here, clearer than ever THAT I AM.i read the ex-p site. i believe all of it. i'm probably going to forward the damning stuff to the DNC and see if they bust him. but i still use the techniques. i still miss the old days. i hate the heartless machine of now.(5:i saw thru all the ego and the power tripping and the cruelty, from the first day--but i also saw the vaster things.i still, to this day, have never seen that, anywhere else. There is something vaster than even GMJ to this, that even he cannot fight.(5:To all of you who ever hurt me, I want you to know that you did. I have an uncried ocean of tears at what you did to hurt me. You cold, conniving shells. GMJ--you are not one of them.Not to me, not so far. to you ex's--keep drilling.the infection needs popped, for the health of all it is damaging. :and to JW--i hope you bother to read my second and third posts, and write me, direct, before you go ridiculing my life in ignorance again, on the 'best of the forums' at Roger's House of Maharaji Drek. (Readers, put it in a search engine and look it up, if you care to. I neglected to grab the URL on my way over.I was keenly angered.)--JanetJai_Choix@webtv.net look for me in person @www.talkcity.com/port7003/#astronetchat, counsel and patience-- ev night,graveyard shift,PST ---where I ply my trade and skills learned from all this painful experience.
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Date: Mon, Oct 02, 2000 at 21:16:08 (GMT)
From: Roger eDrek
Email: drek@oz.net
To: Janet of Venice Beach
Subject: Damnit, Janet!
Message:
Janet,

Damnit! I confess - I wrote that fictional characterization of you as an introduction to your post (Read it here.) Of course, what you are is not at all like my fictional extension. You appear to be a very special person, indeed. And I do mean that sincerely. You sound like you are a good person who has been through a lot. And I think that we can all appreciate that.

Janet, I was just having some fun with a stereotype that is obviously not you. Could you perhaps take the ***BEST*** attribution of your post as a compliment in that your nostalgic view of the good old days is something that many of us held near and dear as you did? Yes, I confess it was a very unique global community and what it is today is rather creepy. Janet, going out on a limb I suspect that many of us here secretly appreciate what you said in that post.

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Date: Tues, Oct 03, 2000 at 09:37:56 (GMT)
From: Janet of Venice
Email: Jai_Choix@webtv.net
To: Roger eDrek
Subject: Damnit, Janet!
Message:
ok, i can accept your plea. if others do share my wistful nostalgia, please let me know. i wonder how many others feel as i do. i got a private response to my posting that i may get permission to post here. i think there is a tremendous amount of pain and outrage that needs lancing and telling out loud, here, about all the insults we have endured to our human dignity and feelings and our intelligence. this is a great place to do it. i guess now that i'm here, if I'm in for a penny, I'm in for a pound. deal me in. I'll stay. Waiter! starbucks, multiflavor, heavy on the cream and sugar, and a pack of marlboro red 100's.and stop by the table frequently all night.start me a tab, willya?Okay---so where were we? i want stories.
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Date: Tues, Oct 03, 2000 at 20:52:11 (GMT)
From: Roger eDrek
Email: drek@oz.net
To: Janet of Venice
Subject: Alright, Janet! Welcome!
Message:
Great! I am not really sure of which side of the fence you are on, but I enjoyed your witty responses and the story of your trials. Wow!

Again, my piece was purely a fictional extension and I can clearly see was not really about you, rather something that my wild imagination cooked up and my fascination with southern California and the infamous Venice Beach.

And, again, I think that many of us, no matter how ridiculous it seems now, really felt part of something spectacular and unique. There were some really interesting moments. And I think that with Maharaji as an remote and unreachable figurehead that became very cartoon-like, the good stuff and the strange stuff was mostly all of us people. I think that were some rather nasty people and confused people, but the majority of us were really sweet and sincere. I think we shared a sense of community that few people, the normies, ever experience.

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Date: Thurs, Oct 05, 2000 at 08:47:04 (GMT)
From: Janet of Venice
Email: None
To: Roger eDrek
Subject: Alright, Janet! Welcome!
Message:
i said what i did about'now that i'm here i guess i'll stay' because of how i came to this. it's a revealing story, and i think maybe i oughta tell it.
i got pregnant in 1978 by a premie brother i gave a pity fuck to, and spent my pregnant year being dragged all over the country by him, while he spent what should have been our rent to settle in, chasing after u-no-hoo. more of the same after the baby was born. he left me on the freezing grounds of hans jayanti kissimmee in a tent with the baby while he got a ride for himself back to our apt in denver and left me with no way home. i found my way back two mos later, only to have him do it again for holi in april.this time we got stranded in miami and ended up survivng on south south beach in separate apartments.fast forward 20 years. hes on the east coast, i'm on the west, our son comes to live with me after 16 years of separation and propaganda against me from the rest of both families, and tells me they were all wrong, I'm 'da bomb'. he sees the persistent shadow of bitterness and grief that shadows me, from all those years, even tho we're back together.
his father starts sending me printouts from this site. i wonder what's happening to him- with all his disgust at the years he feels he wasted in DLM when he should have been earning money and having a career and a life. yet in all this newfound supposed awakening to what an adult is, he still to this day hasnt turned around to me and apologized or made true amends for what he did, in forsaking his natural responsibilites to me, and his only offspring, for festivals and chasing mirage-ee. his newfound anger doesnt impress me, seeing as how I'd already endured 20 years of my own which he has yet to connect to his behavior.
then comes april 25, 2000. we get word mirage-ee wants us at a program in santa monica civic center, early morning. i get there at sunup, no breakfast, no sleep. there are zero chairs anywhere. the hall is sealed.not ready yet. the staff has seats, not the attendees. hours go by. i need to sit. my bones are in agony from one leg shorter than the other. i cant sit down.the hall isnt open yet. i go into hypoglycemic free fall and suddenly get dim and weak and actually get down on the floor and try to crawl to the corner. of course someone sees me and steers me to special needs, and that sappy, controlling EV system locks into place. they assign me an escort. all i need is food and a place to sit down. not possible. wait in line, the doors open, my escort will sit with me the whole day.
mirage-ee comes out for maybe ten minutes, maybe longer. im getting cold chills amd nodding out from no food or sleep. i beg to be allowd to get off the chair and sit on the floor. not allowed. my back is in agony. i clutch myself and rock in a daze, needing to take care of my body. but the food cart is locked up now and so are the doors out. if i leave, i cant come back in. and this escort is all over me like a cheap suit.
MJ leaves the stage and a video starts. unbelievable. its him giving knowledge by video editing. i put myself into this condition for this?? fuck you, very much, yourself! i excuse myself and leave the hall. the staff escort follows me. i tell her to go back in or she'll miss it all. i have to lie down, NOW. she solicitously finds me a cubbyhole behind some black curtains, leaves me a water bottle, and goes back in. i crawl to lie down on the carpet and burrow into the curtains and fade away in something like a dead faint the rest of the afternoon, until everyone comes out. the food cart opens, i eat, and return to my cocoon. i stay there, all afternoon, while everyone else is inside the hall. armed police, with guns, patrol the doors where the public might try to enter, during the times the hall is sealed. i'm the sole person not in the sealed hall. and i feel far better out there, lying down, breathing and recharging.
when its out, the major push is to issue smart cards to all attendees, like passports, for future tracking.at 30 bucks a pop.
(that was april. this is october. havent seen no damn smart cards yet.)
meanwhile on the east coast, an emergency is unfolding that i will not know until later. my kid's father has been home in bed, bleeding in his shit for three weeks, with a fever that will not go down. someone finally drives him to the ER and the attending surgeon takes one look at him and tells the staff to prep the OR. he tells the dad 'if i dont open you up right now, you have maybe 40 minutes left to live'.
they wheel him in, put him under, and cut open his belly. it is literally a shit pit.his intestines are eaten thru. they remove his colon and it falls to shreds as soon as it is lifted out of his body. they flush out the shit with sterile water and attach his remaining intestine to a stoma-a cut in his side-to drain. no more shitting out the ass for him. those days are gone. his life is saved. for the next six weeks his body digests itself, in catabolism, while the shock wears off. he loses 40 pounds. hair falls out, he withers, his weight in free fall. but it finally stops and he starts to grow back, albeit slowly.
he writes to tell me this, only after he's thru the worst. and he keeps sending me excerpts from this site (ex-p.org) and email about his wasted years and wasted money and the stress he put himself thru.
when i learn the date they cut him open--
it was April 25th.

and i think back to how i spent april 25th. oh yeah.on the floor, passed out in the curtains of the lobby, cos there were no chairs anywhere. and a fuckin' video inside a gun-patrolled, locked hall, of the techniques i've had for 27 years, because he couldnt be bothered to stay in person and meditate with us.
what a royal kiss off.
i think that was what gave me the determination to come here and really pay attention.

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Date: Thurs, Oct 05, 2000 at 22:02:38 (GMT)
From: Roger eDrek
Email: drek@oz.net
To: Janet of Venice
Subject: Wow! That's almost a complete Journey
Message:
Janet, you are definitely one of the real troopers.

There are other such stories from some of the women here regarding that kind of gypsy lifestyle we led. In fact, they wrote a story,Chronicles of the Red Nighty (CORN), about some of it including Kissimmee.

Here, at www.ex-premie.org, is a section called Journeys where people submit their story. What you've written here today would be a great addition and I bet that you could expand on it as well.

Yes, I've been to Long Beach in recent years and the ambiance was just getting stranger and stranger. The whole thing where the people in charge are trying so, so very hard to make everything just right so as not to piss off Maharaji has taken all of the organic simplicity and enjoyment out of it all. And then Maharaji, for me, was just becoming an over-rehearsed production where he really said very little other than the old rambling wandering stuff and his really stupid stuff like 'don't worry about saving for retirement because the money won't be worth anything anyway'. Yeah, that's easy for you to say, Maharaji, because you've got more than your fair share of money.

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Date: Thurs, Oct 05, 2000 at 21:43:26 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Janet of Venice
Subject: Holy fuck, Janet
Message:
Wow.

How's your ex now, by the way?

God!

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Date: Tues, Oct 03, 2000 at 12:38:52 (GMT)
From: Forum Administrator
Email: None
To: Janet of Venice
Subject: No permission necessary - welcome! (nt)
Message:
z
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Date: Mon, Oct 02, 2000 at 17:59:28 (GMT)
From: Joe (JW)
Email: None
To: Janet of Venice Beach
Subject: Janet, I did not write what you quoted...
Message:
I did respond to your post after it was posted on this forum, but I did not bring it from any other location, and I did not write what you posted. My comments all had to do with Maharaji going back to the old 70s ways to do propogation.

Sorry you got the wrong impression, but I did not post what you quoted. I don't know who did.

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Date: Tues, Oct 03, 2000 at 09:46:44 (GMT)
From: Janet of Venice
Email: None
To: Joe (JW)
Subject: Janet, I did not write what you quoted...
Message:
its ok JW, Roger has admitted to fabricating it for his amusement and i forgave him. he used his best rod serling voice to set it up. I'll be hanging out here since i got drawn in. my nightly chat room was deteriorating anyway; I find this more stimulating and revealing to be a part of. liberating, like attending Adult Children of Alcoholics workshops were for me. rips the lid off what i secretly thought was my own private hell. It's great to find out what was really going on, and to find out i wasnt alone. LET's tear the roof off the sucker! lets do it!
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Date: Mon, Oct 02, 2000 at 15:03:32 (GMT)
From: SD
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: Inappropriate post on GWWL is put here instead
Message:
The following is a post which was submitted to The Great Worldwide Linkup today. Since it isn't a genuine contact ad seeking to find old friends, I will be deleting it from The Great Worldwide Linkup. However, although I've not read all of it, somebody who posts here is mentioned and so I've put it all below. They have mentioned this place here and by that they mean The Great Worldwide Linkup. I should like to point out that The Great Worldwide Linkup is only for posting contact ads and is not a message board as such. Thank you.:

Name: JanetSchwartz
Location: Venice Beach
Email: Jai_Choix@webtv.net
Date: Mon, Oct 02, 2000 at 07:23:31 (PDT)

My message: This is to JW, and all who may have read his transcription of my first posting here in sept 99.bear with me as i use this as a forum to clear my name, thanks to his completely wrong reading of who and how i am: he quotes my entry::Janet, an aging remnant of the 60's flower power revolution and a long time follower of Maharaji is living in her 1967 VW Microbus on the streets of Venice, California. Stuck somewhere between the promised good times of a previous era and the harsh and cold reality of the streets under constant threat of senseless violence and police harassment, Janet's only hope, Maharaji, is through an Internet connection of the modern world when she visits the local Radio Shacks and other appliance dealers where commissioned sales clerks allow her to use WebTV on their floor models. Janet has an account on WebTV and surfs the net and checks her email while the salesperson is distracted by her street punk friend, Sparrow, a known user of methamphetamines. Maharaji is more aloof than ever, unreachable and completely insulated in his pampered cocoon. Janet no longer welcome to do service at the Malibu residence is desperately seeking to rekindle a link to better times that she experienced long ago in a far off and distant universe of love and kindness. Janet is hoping that her Lord will notice her plight and respond and return life to normalcy. But, Janet cannot email Maharaji from his website as she is trapped as it loops in endless senseless commands as WebTV chokes on all of those damn cookies Maharaji is trying to shove down it's throat. Desperate, Janet resorts to one of those sick, hate-filled ex-premie websites and posts her plea to her Lord hoping that he is a regular visitor. And along comes JW with some hope, but what JW offers is a futuristic vision of a world of Maharaji devotion. Date: Wed, Sep 22, 1999 at 13:32:16 (EDT) From: Jethro Email: To: All Subject: To Maharaji Message:I just found this message on a premie/ex-premie website at http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Ithaca/8154/ (WHICH IS THIS BOARD AND THIS URL RIGHT HERE) -------------------okay QUESTION ONE--IS THIS A HATE FILLED BOARD? allow me to correct your image of me. i'm 48. i dont drive, never did,have never owned nor resided in a vehicle. was in a car crash at age 9, never shook it off.I live in a victorian house with my 22 year old son, and we pay our rent and bills, rock solid, every month on time, as I have done for 18 years. I have credit .i own my webtv. my son owns his. we pay our ISP rates ev month on time. i'm not a 60's leftover. by the time i graduated hi school the 60's were over. i am a brutal realist. who among you out there has endured having your child kidnapped by your family, and being locked in a mental hospital for your life in Knowledge? who among you came out of that to be taken to a deprogrammer? who among you was put on a razor edge and told to choose between motherhood and Knowledge before a judge (deny me thrice...)? who among you has battled clinical depression for 22 years without medication? and superceded it? i know who i am. i know what i am. i'm till here, clearer than ever. i read the ex-p site. i believe all of it. i'm probably going to forward the damning stuff to the DNC and see if they bust him. but i still use the techniques. i still miss the old days. i hate the heartless machine of now.i saw thru all the ego and the power tripping and the cruelty, from the first day--but i also saw the vaster things.i still, to this day, have never seen that, anywhere else. There is something vaster than even GMJ to this, that even he cannot fight.To all of you who ever hurt me, I want you to know that you did. I have an uncried ocean of tears at what you did to hurt me. GMJ--you are not one of them. to you ex's--keep drilling.the infection needs popped, for the health of all it is damaging. and to JW--i hope you bother to read my second and third posts, and write me, direct, before you go ridiculing my life in ignorance again, on the 'best of the forums' at Roger's House of Maharaji Drek. (put it in a search engine and look it up if you care to. I neglected to grab the URL on my way over here.)

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Date: Mon, Oct 02, 2000 at 15:13:52 (GMT)
From: Janet Of Venice
Email: Jai_Cjoix@webtv.net
To: SD
Subject: Inappropriate post on GWWL is put here instead
Message:
I posted in both places, since the posting he was ridiculing was one i put up at the GWWL first . I wanted it seen in both places. i reasoned that he would go back to where he saw it. here is fine. i hope he sees it here. there was no place at Roger's to rebut it. so much for open and honest discussion aiming at truth.
sorry for duplication. the later one here by me is more completely thought out.
--Janet of Venice
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Date: Mon, Oct 02, 2000 at 18:23:27 (GMT)
From: suchabanana
Email: None
To: Janet Of Venice
Subject: persecution -- and Light at the end of the tunnel
Message:
Dear Janet

May God bless all sincere seekers of truth and heal wounded hearts and minds.

Others here have had their kids taken away in court (and their 1st amendment rights trampled upon), for not renouncing their allegiance to m. and the cult. Others have battled depression, too. Some have even had deprogrammers terrorizing them in the past -- hired by their own families.

And some of us here still like to practice the actual timeless techniques of going within ourselves -- our own light, our own sounds, our own breath -- the gift of our creator, the universal energy.

Peace, Love, and Light to all who suffer and endure, for the sake of truth!

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Date: Tues, Oct 03, 2000 at 09:54:22 (GMT)
From: Janet of Venice
Email: None
To: suchabanana
Subject: persecution -- and Light at the end of the tunnel
Message:
i would like to hear from all of those who have indeed endured as i have. i wonder how many we are? can we get any justice for it? together ? can we get closure? can the wound heal? where are my peers who know the pain? lets get a support group for ourselves going. here is fine.
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Date: Tues, Oct 03, 2000 at 21:43:50 (GMT)
From: suchabanana
Email: None
To: Janet of Venice
Subject: persecution -- and Light at the end of the tunnel
Message:
Dear Janet:

I wouldn't exactly call this an especially 'safe environment' for healing the terrible pain. [Too many flamers and facetious people visit.] We can't be so naive as to immediately trust others and their intentions -- they have to earn our trust now -- and vice versa. This is part of healthy self-preservation. We also have to learn to set acceptable personal boundaries with others, which are inviolable -- our own safe personal space and sanctuary (physically, interpersonal relations, and spiritually).

Probably nobody has suffered 'exactly' the same as you, Janet. We're all individuals with different personal experiences. But, yes, there are similarities for many people. Justice? Not in this world, I fear. Remember, it was government that sanctioned taking away people's kids, in the first place.

Healing? The 'enduring' has made us stronger spiritually, and characterwise, too. That is part of the healing -- the fact that you have also endured shows you do have some abiding strength within you. The strength to carry on in the face of adversity, the strength to be true to yourself and your own heart. That is commendable.

Closure? Perhaps closure comes when we can finally accept the fact that, yes, unpleasant things happened to us, but not to condone them -- just to understand that we don't have to let those events and that emotional pain that we carried around inside ourselves control our lives right now or anymore -- that we can go on with our lives -- and begin anew. Hold your head up, look at the beautiful ocean, listen to the waves, feel the warmth of the sun's rays where you live, and say to yourself: 'I made it. I'm here now. And I have a right to be kind to myself today.' Then, do the things you enjoy. Do you like gardening, cooking, painting, etc.? whatever... If meditation helps, do it.

Don't judge yourself, or torment yourself for what you've endured, Janet. Don't hate, either, because hatred and bitterness becomes like a cancer that only eats away at one's insides. It is indeed hard to forgive those who have directly committed wrongs and inflicted pain upon us -- I know only too well. But I try, nevertheless.

When emotional pain becomes too much to bear, it's always o.k. to offer it up to your higher power. And ask for love, for peace, and light. If you need to talk to someone about the pain, it's ok to see a professional counselor -- if that's available. Some self-help, recovery, and healing books help, too. Above all, don't judge yourself anymore -- just be kind to yourself, every day. ok? And then, if there's any good feeling left, share it with others. The world needs more kindness from us all.

Peace and Love,

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Date: Mon, Oct 02, 2000 at 15:32:06 (GMT)
From: Sir Dave
Email: sirdavid12@hotmail.com
To: Janet Of Venice
Subject: Inappropriate post on GWWL is put here instead
Message:
No problem. I hope this misunderstanding or whatever we could call it, is resolved for you soon.
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Date: Mon, Oct 02, 2000 at 12:37:10 (GMT)
From: SD
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: New question in the Polling Booth
Message:

Click here to go to the Polling Booth

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Date: Mon, Oct 02, 2000 at 18:08:09 (GMT)
From: suchabanana
Email: None
To: SD
Subject: Answer in the Polling Booth
Message:
yes
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Date: Mon, Oct 02, 2000 at 13:05:50 (GMT)
From: SD
Email: None
To: SD
Subject: Now put it into singular form
Message:
although the meaning and answer will be exactly the same for either singular or plural. Agree???
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Date: Mon, Oct 02, 2000 at 00:34:39 (GMT)
From: Damn homosexul's takin'
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: over the world--and YOU DON'T EVEN KNOW IT!
Message:
SAN FRANCISCO--Spokespersons for the National Gay & Lesbian Recruitment Task Force announced Monday that more than 288,000 straights have been converted to homosexuality since Jan. 1, 1998, putting the group well on pace to reach its goal of 350,000 conversions by the end of the year.

'Thanks to the tireless efforts of our missionaries nationwide, in the first seven months of 1998, nearly 300,000 heterosexuals were ensnared in the Pink Triangle,' said NGLRTF co-director Patricia Emmonds. 'Clearly, the activist homosexual lobby is winning.'

Emmonds credited much of the recruiting success to the gay lobby's infiltration of America's public schools, where programs promoting the homosexual lifestyle are regularly presented to children as young as 5.

'It's crucial that we reach these kids while they're still young,' Emmonds said. 'That's when they're most vulnerable to our message of sexual promiscuity and deviance.'

Above: Lansing, MI, fifth-grade teacher Margaret Gerhardt. Gerhardt's is one of countless elementary-school classes across the U.S. in which the homosexual agenda and lifestyle are actively promoted.

'When I grow up, I want to be gay,' said Christopher Linn, 8, a second-grader at Philadelphia's Lakeside Elementary School, one of thousands of public schools nationwide that actively promote the homosexual agenda. 'I don't want to have a family or go to church.'

'Straight people don't have any fun,' said Teddy Nance, 11, after watching Breeders Are Boring!, an anti-heterosexual filmstrip, in his fifth-grade class at Crestwood Elementary School in Roanoke, VA. 'Gay people get to do whatever they want.'

In addition to school programs that target youths, the NGLRTF launched a $630 million advertising campaign this year in an effort to convert adults to homosexuality. The campaign, which features TV and radio spots, as well as print advertising in major national magazines, has helped convince thousands of people to leave their spouses and families for a life of self-gratification and irresponsibility.

'The gay lifestyle is for me,' said James Miller, an Oklahoma City father of four who recently moved to Provincetown, MA, to pursue a career in bath-house management. 'When I was a family man, I constantly had to worry about things like taking the kids to Little League practice, paying for their braces, and remembering my wife's birthday. But now that I'm gay, I'm finally free to focus all my energy on having non-stop, mind-blowing anal sex.'

Though Emmonds said gays have been tremendously successful in tearing at the fabric of society and subverting basic decency, she stressed that their work is far from over.

'For all the progress we've made, America is still overwhelmingly heterosexual,' said Emmonds, who is calling for an additional $2.6 billion in federal aid to further the gay agenda. 'If we are to insidiously penetrate American society, as we constantly do each other's orifices, we need more money and resources. Without such help, this country will remain the domain of decent, moral, God-fearing Christians. And that would be a sin.'

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Date: Mon, Oct 02, 2000 at 21:03:54 (GMT)
From: Joe
Email: None
To: Damn homosexul's takin'
Subject: A Free Toaster Oven....
Message:
Didn't you watch 'Ellen?' Homosexuals get a free toaster oven for every heterosexual they convert to homosexuality. I understand it's been a very successful program.:))
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Date: Tues, Oct 03, 2000 at 06:43:59 (GMT)
From: Scott T.
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: A Free Toaster Oven....
Message:
Joe:

How could you possibly use more than one toaster oven?

--Scott

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Date: Tues, Oct 03, 2000 at 18:43:42 (GMT)
From: Joe
Email: None
To: Scott T.
Subject: A Free Toaster Oven....
Message:
You can trade them for other exciting prizes. For example, two toaster ovens=a week for two in Provincetown.
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Date: Mon, Oct 02, 2000 at 19:19:14 (GMT)
From: Joe
Email: None
To: Damn homosexul's takin'
Subject: Funny -- but this is actually true.
Message:
I read that satire in the Onion some time ago. Very funny.

While we are on the subject, Newsweek ran a cover article on the so-called 'ex-gay' movement, which is touted by Christian conservatives, who think that with proper counseling, a gay person can be made straight. The poster-child for this is a guy named John Paulk, who was on the cover of Newsweek, with his wife, who is supposedly an ex-lesbian. Paulk is the head of something called 'Exodus International' which supposedly educates gay people into becoming straight.

Well, recently Mr. Paulk was discovered frequenting a gay bar in Washington, DC, which he claimed he went into just to go to the bathroom. Right.

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Date: Tues, Oct 03, 2000 at 06:49:06 (GMT)
From: Scott T.
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: True, but this is actually funny.
Message:
Joe:

While we are on the subject, Newsweek ran a cover article on the so-called 'ex-gay' movement, which is touted by Christian conservatives, who think that with proper counseling, a gay person can be made straight.

Maybe not, but there are plenty of straight people who fancied they were gay just because they liked the jokes. (Or were those gentiles who thought themselves Jewish?)

--Scott

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Date: Tues, Oct 03, 2000 at 05:22:44 (GMT)
From: Monmot
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: Funny -- but this is actually true.
Message:
Joe:

He probably did go in just to use the bathroom. He just left out who he was with.

I love it when these guys get bagged a la Falwell.

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Date: Mon, Oct 02, 2000 at 14:39:44 (GMT)
From: Forum Administrator
Email: None
To: Damn homosexul's takin'
Subject: Dear anonymous poster
Message:
The only reason this thread has not been deleted is out of respect for the people who have taken the trouble to reply to it.

In future, please take posts like this over to the 'Anything Goes' forum (unless they relate in some way to Maharaji or the cult). If you do start off-topic threads here, please mark them '(ot)'. Also, please use your own name, or a consistent alias. And - oh yeah - I suggest you get help for the phobia.

Thanks,
Forum Adminisatrator.

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Date: Mon, Oct 02, 2000 at 11:30:24 (GMT)
From: hamzen
Email: None
To: Damn homosexul's takin'
Subject: It's not what you do but how you do it
Message:
Who gives a toss who you're doing it with, it's where you're coming from that counts.
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Date: Mon, Oct 02, 2000 at 11:14:15 (GMT)
From: AJW
Email: None
To: Damn homosexul's takin'
Subject: Don't knock it 'till you've tried it (nt)
Message:
nt
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Date: Mon, Oct 02, 2000 at 07:10:14 (GMT)
From: Scott T.
Email: None
To: Damn homosexul's takin'
Subject: over the world--and YOU DON'T EVEN KNOW IT!
Message:
SAN FRANCISCO--Spokespersons for the National Gay & Lesbian Recruitment Task Force announced Monday that more than 288,000 straights have been converted to homosexuality since Jan. 1, 1998, putting the group well on pace to reach its goal of 350,000 conversions by the end of the year.

Is this a net figure? I mean, does it include a subtraction for Lesbians who develop 'eyes for guys?' I mean, if 'conversions' are possible, then surely 'unconversions' are too.

'When I grow up, I want to be gay,' said Christopher Linn, 8, a second-grader at Philadelphia's Lakeside Elementary School, one of thousands of public schools nationwide that actively promote the homosexual agenda. 'I don't want to have a family or go to church.'

Surely Christopher doesn't need to wait until he grows up? Think of the educational enhancements if we modeled our public schools in the image of English Boarding Schools where young lads learn early what the term 'Headmaster' really means. And, why do you think the characters in 'Farscape' have British accents if they've never been closer than 700 light years from earth? It can only be that they were infected through the Tardis: British accent + six foot scarf = time lord so gay he lactates. Clearly the conspiracy has spread well beyond the confines of terrestrial society. It has become interpenetrary.

'For all the progress we've made, America is still overwhelmingly heterosexual,' said Emmonds, who is calling for an additional $2.6 billion in federal aid to further the gay agenda.

Completely unneccessary with banana fanna Canada just to the north interpenetrating US with their gay socialist propaganda, except for Alberta and parts of northern British Columbia (minus Vancouver, the San Francisco of the north). Why, they even have a 'queen' printed on their money. Coming soon: Mexican pesos with the images of Ellen Degenerous and Richard Simmons, and changing the Mexican national language to Greek. We'll soon be surrounded.

Scott 'So what if I went to an all male Anglican boarding school? BIG DEAL!' T.

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Date: Mon, Oct 02, 2000 at 01:27:51 (GMT)
From: bill
Email: None
To: Damn homosexul's takin'
Subject: people that say 'damn' and other swear words are..
Message:
taking over the society. For some reason, during the last few years american media insists on making swear words part of the every day norm.

I count on the idea that the swings to excess are met with the impulse to return to a more classy way of speaking and acting.
If not the word classy, then mature.

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Date: Mon, Oct 02, 2000 at 08:58:49 (GMT)
From: Mel Bourne
Email: None
To: bill
Subject: people that say 'damn' and other swear words are..
Message:
'...american media insists on making swear words part of the every day norm.'

In Australia the media promoted swear word is 'bugger'. Maybe there's a homosexual lobby in Australia as aggressive as the one in the US, maybe even more so if you believe that media promoted swear words are any indication!

Mel

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Date: Mon, Oct 02, 2000 at 16:37:12 (GMT)
From: gerry
Email: None
To: All
Subject: Uh, don't you guys think maybe this article was
Message:
tongue-in-cheek? (no pun intended)

I read the exact same thing in the Onion

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Date: Mon, Oct 02, 2000 at 19:10:38 (GMT)
From: ExTex
Email: None
To: gerry
Subject: Uh, don't you guys think maybe this article was
Message:
This article was either pure sarcasm or homophobic propaganda, in my opinion. It was WAY OVER THE TOP of what anyone, with such an agenda, would let out of the bag publically.

Although I believe that there is a 'homosexual agenda'...
I believe that FOR THE MOST PART it is only concerned with human rights, justice, support-issues and non-descrimination issues. This article was BOGUS!

(However, there sometimes individual SMALL gay agendas to reverse-descriminate against hetros and women. I have seen it on occasion, unfortunately. But that kind of thing happens with all types of people...and their group.)

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Date: Mon, Oct 02, 2000 at 19:23:33 (GMT)
From: gerry
Email: gkl1@techline.com
To: ExTex
Subject: Uh, don't you guys think maybe this article was
Message:
Yes, the Onion is satirical. If you check the link you can read other similiarly wicked articles. They are not homophobic, and are mocking the people who are. This particular article was ridiucling the concept of a 'homosexual agenda.'
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Date: Mon, Oct 02, 2000 at 20:24:19 (GMT)
From: ExTex
Email: None
To: gerry
Subject: That makes sense (nt)
Message:
nt
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Date: Sun, Oct 01, 2000 at 21:09:39 (GMT)
From: jewel
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: stronger the light - darker the shadow...
Message:
Can someone tell me how come the living 'masters' never mention eachother? Is there some kind of master rivalry or is it just bad business sense? Is there this enormous master jealousy...or master ego...that prohibits them from pointing out other living illuminated souls? They will gladly point out past prophets and deceased saints...but never another living teacher. Sant Mat apparently has the largest esoteric library at the Dera in Beas, India...but no mention of Maharaji...not that he is esoteric. Maharaji, on the other hand has never gone and said...hey, check out this other dude...he's amazing...he's saying the same thing. If I was say a master guitarist, or master whatever, I would automatically call together other peers to share in the message...a kind of get-together or think-tank or festival or something...or just plain mention...you know what I mean?
I fear that they are jealous of eachother and guard the message under this exclusive copyright cloak of mystery when it's absolutely everyones birthright to just be plain fucking enlightened...same principles actually as in the medieval roman catholic church...the brighter the light - the darker the shadow!
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Date: Mon, Oct 02, 2000 at 13:34:47 (GMT)
From: Scott T.
Email: None
To: jewel
Subject: stronger the light - darker the shadow...
Message:
jewel:

Is there this enormous master jealousy...or master ego...that prohibits them from pointing out other living illuminated souls? They will gladly point out past prophets and deceased saints...but never another living teacher.

The secular culture in India has a name for them. They're called 'thugs' (pronounced 'tuggs').

--Scott

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Date: Mon, Oct 02, 2000 at 22:39:13 (GMT)
From: ham
Email: None
To: Scott T.
Subject: I thought the thuggies were a specific cult?
Message:
I might have that wrong, good to see you round again Scott
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Date: Tues, Oct 03, 2000 at 06:57:19 (GMT)
From: Scott T.
Email: None
To: ham
Subject: I thought the thuggies were a specific cult?
Message:
Ham:

There was an assassin cult in northern India called the Thugs or Thuggies, which is probably the origin of the generic term for a spiritual charlatan.

--Scott

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Date: Mon, Oct 02, 2000 at 02:35:00 (GMT)
From: suchabanana
Email: None
To: jewel
Subject: r.e. guitarists / gurus
Message:
Well, actually, some famous guitarists -- even supposedly spiritual ones, have their big egos, too. Most aren't thinking about helping other less-known musicians or crediting the guitar teachers who have already helped them in their own lives. If Clapton acknowledges Buddy Guy, perhaps it's because the Chicago and Mississippi blues lineage (and legacy) is too obvious in his playing, and both are already famous, as well. Also the real blues tradition is clearly African-American -- and Clapton is English. One can't generalize, though.

Did Madonna acknowledge Diana Ross? Did the Rolling Stones acknowledge bluesman Robert Johnson as the composer of Love in Vain (and other tunes on their albums)? No, they simply ripped off entire tunes from him (and others, e.g. Ry Cooder) and attached their own names with the copyrights on the recordings.

Case in point: an example from my own life, for instance -- after meeting Santana at a Sri Chinmoy meditation event, Carlos invited me to his house in Marin County and recording studio back in the early 1970s. We jammed way into the night, and then during the following week I taught his brother my guitar method in depth for many hours each day -- free (including handouts and cassette tapes). Jorge then passed along my guitar knowledge and jazz chording, scales, theory and improvising system to Carlos -- but when Carlos did a Guitar Player magazine interview in 1975, did he even mention me? No.

This sort of thing happened to me on several other occasions directly involving celebrity rock guitarists. Did they ever once publicly acknowledge the source of instruction that improved their guitar technique and opened up their understanding of improvisation and music? No.

Because of similar experiences with several other famous pop stars, I don't associate with musicians like that anymore. I didn't care about receiving any money (I didn't charge them any fee or ask for any perquisites), but just a little appreciation and truthfulness would have also helped me professionally, too. Did they care at all in return? No, they were too selfish (or self-absorbed in their own trips).

I'm not bitter, but I sure don't waste my time on people who are just going to use me anymore. That includes gurus, mega-corporations, publishers, record companies, politicians, agents, pop musicians, and other worldly minded people focussed on greed and power for themselves -- often at the expense of others. Sometimes it's very hard to read people clearly (and their intentions, or modus operandi), before it's too late -- and one is victimized. I've been way too naive, in the past.

There are a lot of con artists in this world, and also people with a trip that looks good, caring, or sincere -- on the surface. Dig?

Yeah, it looks like most of these gurus are in some kind of unmentioned competition with each other (or have strong individual egos). If the truth is one, however, and it's within each of us, then who can claim a monopoly on that truth -- except the universal energy that has created us all?!

I hung with a nice monk-yogi one summer who was not like that -- Baba Hari Das. He took a vow of silence (wrote everything with chalk on a tablet). He related that Shri Hans had once taken him to task for not using his mouth to spread the Knowledge. But he felt that the mouth was a source of much evil -- the hurtful words, knee-jerk reactions, falsehoods, and misconceptions that get conveyed by one's ego verbally. So he vowed never to speak again -- as his personal austerity. Actually, although that approach wouldn't work for or appeal to me, I do admire his diligence and dedication.

I gave up the pursuit of fleeting, empty fame a long long time ago to be true to myself and the abiding energy within. But the majority of inhabitants of this material world, what do they actually recognize and respect (and secretly crave)? Fame, power, and fortune! Hahaha 'Lifestyles of the Rich and Famous' -- even some so-called gurus are susceptible to such banal temptations.

Hello? Is there any intelligent life in this universe? Please let me know if anyone finds it! It's at best rare or virtually extinct on this planet. hahaha Silly us!

Peace.

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Date: Tues, Oct 03, 2000 at 02:48:28 (GMT)
From: gerrry
Email: None
To: suchabanana
Subject: can you do anything for me...
Message:
and my pathetic guutar playing? Look I can't even spell it right. I've been struggling for 31 years.

I know what you mean though. I hate it when that happens. Damn ingrates.

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Date: Mon, Oct 02, 2000 at 13:23:06 (GMT)
From: Scott T.
Email: None
To: suchabanana
Subject: r.e. guitarists / gurus
Message:
Sucha:

Hello? Is there any intelligent life in this universe? Please let me know if anyone finds it! It's at best rare or virtually extinct on this planet. hahaha Silly us!

Since you mentioned Ry Cooder, he financed a documentary about a group of unknown elderly Cuban musicians that made them famous and sought after recording artists. At the time they were no longer playing together, working at menial jobs like garbage man or hotel maintenance man. He met them in the '70s and was appalled at their situation in the 90s, and the fact that their sort of music was dying out, so he promoted them.

Just one case, but it's way better than none.

--Scott

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Date: Mon, Oct 02, 2000 at 12:34:48 (GMT)
From: SAC
Email: None
To: suchabanana
Subject: Do you are giving a challenge? nt
Message:
MAESTRO!!!!!!!!!!!!!
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Date: Mon, Oct 02, 2000 at 12:31:32 (GMT)
From: SAC
Email: None
To: suchabanana
Subject: r.e. guitarists / gurus
Message:
Maestro!!!!!!! (it΄s an english word)
I love SRI HANS ,but HE don΄t live on this world . so...
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Date: Mon, Oct 02, 2000 at 11:27:33 (GMT)
From: hamzen
Email: None
To: suchabanana
Subject: Musicians and rip offs
Message:
One of the major attitudes I love about the drum & bass, & breakbeat culture over here (uk) is that there is minmal self promotion without promoting the wider community. This has meant that they have been able to set up an infrastructure that bypasses the majors so that when they did start catching up and began sniffing around contracts that were signed were non-exckusive, as far as I know a first, and certainly so for unknowns.

They were well aware of hippy and others naivete in this regard in the past which is why they haven't got entangled.

Re gurus, well business is business, & the guru business is one of the sharkiest around.

So who are your faves music wise mr banana?

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Date: Mon, Oct 02, 2000 at 18:00:29 (GMT)
From: suchabanana
Email: None
To: hamzen
Subject: r.e. 'faves music wise', and musical inspiration
Message:
Dear Ham

composers: Bach, Debussy, Tarrega, and Vaughn-Williams (I'm actually an overseas Brit, too; his music stirs up something that is 'forever England' subliminally, with its folk themes).

of all-time recorded musicians: Miles Davis - trumpet (circa 1959-1970), John McLaughlin - electric and acoustic guitar, Segovia - classical guitar, Paco de Lucia - flamenco guitar, Keith Jarrett -piano, recent Michael Brecker - tenor sax (1990-present), Zakir Hussain -tabla, Hariprashad Chaurasia -bansuri flute, Emerson Quartet - string quartet, Weather Report - band, Pat Metheny Band, Jaco Pastorius - electric bass (he also received knowledge, and made the most progress on bass during the time he practiced meditation -- before he got addicted to cocaine).

I don't listen to much contemporary pop music any more; what they play on tv and radio often is physically painful to my hears, and mostly sounds unoriginal and unmusical. At least in the '60s the pop music was fresh! I don't want to get too opinionated here, but I prefer instrumental music where I find some kind of spiritual quality (vibration/feeling) expressed, in addition to a high level of musicianship. I love beautiful and creative melodies, and music that evokes the highest aspirations of the human soul. Not grating, distorted electric guitars, nursery rhyme macho rapping over pounding drum machines, and people whining about their stupid relationships or panting and grunting with groin lust -- or insipid physical infatuation (that they mistake for love). Also, acoustic instruments have a natural resonance and harmonics that electronic sound modulation ruins (if abused).

among pop musicians: I think Bob Marley's music and lyrics made a positive, uplifting (or spiritual) statement for the oppressed and poor people of the world -- that's why he was #1 overall in many so-called Third World countries. Some Beatles tunes were also inspirational and had an upbeat feeling. Sting has a couple songs like that, too.

Those are the qualities that I look for in music, and what personally appeals to me -- speaking just as an individual, of course. Lots of people play pop music for the wrong reasons -- they aspire to fame, fortune, satiated lust. The only pure reason to play music is for the joy of it -- and then possibly to share it (with others, or just alone with one's creator).

The megacorporate structure just feeds into the susceptibility of musicians' egos. Non-musicians basically dictate the global musical scenario -- for financial greed, not musical factors. That's why indie labels, websites, etc. are very important in battling the monolithic capitalist beast and hierarchy -- and providing honest and healthy musical alternatives - organically.

The urbanized world is too noisy -- not a healthy environment. Most of the time I prefer silence -- silence is not silent! I just listen to the music playing in my head.

I think maestro is an Italian word. Thank you.

Peace

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Date: Sun, Oct 01, 2000 at 22:57:27 (GMT)
From: Gregg
Email: None
To: jewel
Subject: Are you saying M. is a 'strong light?' (nt)
Message:
x
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Date: Sun, Oct 01, 2000 at 21:28:07 (GMT)
From: ExTex
Email: None
To: jewel
Subject: Great Observation
Message:
One would think that if they (spiritual masters/teachers) were who they say they are that they would be glad to form alliances with other like minded people...to help further their professed goal.
This obvious GLITCH in the story goes totally UNNOTICED by devotees (and sometimes even by critics!). Strange.
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Date: Sun, Oct 01, 2000 at 21:41:56 (GMT)
From: jewel
Email: None
To: ExTex
Subject: Great Observation
Message:
You said it...exactly...what is it with these guys??? Like Clapton would invite Buddy Guy up for a jam...wouldn't he?
Or Picasso would get into fights with old Matisse. Einstein communicated with other scientists. Spielberg colaborates with Lucas etc...jeeez!!! But Maharaji shake hands with Gurinder...now that's a different story...come on guys!!! Get a (temporary)life!
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Date: Sun, Oct 01, 2000 at 21:53:42 (GMT)
From: ExTex
Email: None
To: jewel
Subject: Great Quote
Message:
I heard Ralph Nader speak the other night and, among many interesting things, he said this about our school system in the US:
Are they teaching our kids to THINK or are they just teaching them to BELIEVE?

I think that the same thing should be asked of any real 'spiritual' teacher. It usually is NOT!

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Date: Mon, Oct 02, 2000 at 13:47:59 (GMT)
From: Scott T.
Email: None
To: ExTex
Subject: Great Quote
Message:
ET:

I recently taught a college course and was shocked to discover that students expected me to publish my lecture notes on a website so they wouldn't have to take notes themselves (or presumably even attend class). Apparently this is practiced widely at the undergrad level, because students have lost the skill of taking notes... which of course means that they'll never acquire it. The educational model is that students are regarded as vessels and the instructor's job is to dump as much stuff as possible in there, and compact it if necessary to make a tighter fit.

But that's an interesting statement from Ralph. Sounds like he's been reading Mortimer Adler. What does he suppose would need to be done to change the system so that kids would be taught to think? Adler figured we'd need a special racket busting agency in, to deal with the teachers colleges that teach the teachers.

--Scott

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Date: Sun, Oct 01, 2000 at 22:09:49 (GMT)
From: jewel
Email: None
To: ExTex
Subject: thinking vs. believing
Message:
I remember telling this Boston University grassroots political science activist hippie chick that South Africa is racially the most advanced country in the world...
Oh yeah, you slave driver you! (she replied...)
So where are the original people of this country?...(I asked...)
Who do you mean?...(was her dumbfounded response)...the Spanish or the French?
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Date: Mon, Oct 02, 2000 at 04:48:46 (GMT)
From: Salam
Email: None
To: jewel
Subject: The tree and the weed.
Message:
Have not you read the guru's responce in the past regarding the tree that has weed growing around it. The good ol farmer came in a cut all the wed so the tree can grow. That is what the guru think of other masters. They are weed. He is the only one. Also there is the economic issue. Too many hands will spoil the pie.

Anyway I had this big realisation. It is about reptiles. You know. Nasty crocs and snakes eating each others. In human or half humans like gurus and other authoritarian figures it appears that according to 'developmentlisim', this authority is a sign that the so called 'old brain', which is concerned with survival is a part of our reptilian origin. Because it needs to concure and controls. So maharaji is really not a perfect master. No siry, we have the wroung idea, he is a snake in human form. I found this to be very amusing do not you?

Man what a con job, a snake huh. Very funny that is.

A bloddy snake in human form, no wounder he wants our money.

Reminds me of that film by Mario brothers. I think I go and watch it.

Guru maharaji you bloody reptalian brain......

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Date: Mon, Oct 02, 2000 at 07:51:58 (GMT)
From: ExTex
Email: None
To: Salam
Subject: Don't insult snakes-reptiles, Ha Ha (nt)
Message:
nt
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Date: Mon, Oct 02, 2000 at 11:43:15 (GMT)
From: Salam
Email: None
To: ExTex
Subject: Don't insult snakes-reptiles. Sorry..nt
Message:
nt
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Date: Sun, Oct 01, 2000 at 14:20:52 (GMT)
From: Brian
Email: brian@ex-premie.org
To: Everyone
Subject: Two new Journeys
Message:
I finally got time to put these entries online this morning: Salam and Toldemso.
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Date: Mon, Oct 02, 2000 at 01:49:22 (GMT)
From: Brian
Email: brian@ex-premie.org
To: Brian
Subject: And a third entry
Message:
George Satory originally sent this as a letter to the site. He has since given me permission to include it as a Journeys entry.
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Date: Sun, Oct 01, 2000 at 15:21:24 (GMT)
From: Helen
Email: None
To: Brian
Subject: Two new Journeys
Message:
Toldesemo's conclusion that kindness is the closest thing to enlightenment is right on , IMO. And I like the way she saw through all that hokey 'enlightened' behavior--what a crock! That mahatma sayign that the dad and kid enjoying the snow was still 'attachment' is the biggest bunch of bulls**t. A VERY illustrative anecdote that points out how destructive the whole trip was to families and relationships and REALITY. Gotta go, I am going hiking with my dog--oh whoops--enjoying hiking is attachment too--so I had better sit under my blanket and walk around with a blank stare on my face and pretend to be happy!
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Date: Sun, Oct 01, 2000 at 23:11:31 (GMT)
From: Bin Liner
Email: None
To: Helen
Subject: Two new Journeys
Message:

Yes , I agree with that. Thank you Toldesmo for your contribution. I like your witty name. Makes me wish I had listened to me all those years ago instead of ..... oh well, dream on.
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Date: Sun, Oct 01, 2000 at 14:57:05 (GMT)
From: Salam
Email: None
To: Brian
Subject: Two new Journeys
Message:
About time.

Thanks for that.

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Date: Mon, Oct 02, 2000 at 01:31:28 (GMT)
From: Bin Liner
Email: None
To: Salam
Subject: Two new Journeys
Message:

Just read your journey & liked it.

I can't comment on what you said about the meditation because I'm still struggling to make sense of my own experience of that side of all this.

Regarding point 5 in your thoughts : have you ever seen an old (c 1960) British movie called 'IT HAPPENED HERE'. Worth it for uncomfortable similarities between Nazi indoctrination sessions & some satsangs(the larger '70's ones) I attended.

Actually, worth it on every count, it's a bloody good film.

Point 7 : Seems to me the only way Shitler can be brought low in the UK is through the Charity Commission.

Hard evidence will be necessary if that approach is to have the slightest chance of success.

Will try through tenuous family connections to get a prominent member of the 'great & the good' interested in all this.

Can't hold out much hope of success however ; apart from having to 'out' myself as a deluded nitwit of long standing, the fate of people who freely entered into a relationship with a charlatan is not one in which the powers that be have any interest.

The taxman is always interested though. Evidence,that's the thing.

I'll try anyway.

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Date: Sun, Oct 01, 2000 at 21:08:30 (GMT)
From: suchabanana
Email: None
To: Salam
Subject: practice on light (u2!), + kindness = a path
Message:
Salam

* same inner light intensity for me (very heavy-duty), too, but also before hearing about m.. I've always loved watching the Light.

I like the other comments people made here about kindness.

The simplest way I could express my own personal path now is:

-- have faith in the all-powerful conscious energy that gives us the breath of life and operates this universe;
-- practice the techniques of Light, Sounds, and Breath;
-- Love others as thyself (and be kind to yourself, too), and
practice truthfulness and honesty in all dealings;
-- do no harm, and try and leave this world a better place than we found it
-- cherish each moment, go for the gusto in this life, and share your joys...

Peace

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Date: Sun, Oct 01, 2000 at 20:40:03 (GMT)
From: sb
Email: None
To: Salam
Subject: To Salam
Message:
thanks!!
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Date: Sun, Oct 01, 2000 at 18:14:29 (GMT)
From: bill
Email: None
To: Salam
Subject: Thanks Salam good story-nt
Message:
That was interesting
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Date: Sun, Oct 01, 2000 at 21:37:27 (GMT)
From: Marianne
Email: None
To: Salam and toldemso
Subject: Wonderful contributions
Message:
Salam: Thank you so much for posting your Journey. I have always imagined that the story of how you came to k and M would be very illuminating and interesting. Your Journey proves my suspicions correct. Your final points say much in few words, but the reasoning is sound. You say: M thinks he is God and expects premies to treat him that way by praying and prostating to him; since he is God, he is accountable to no one for his actions. You also said that once M 'gives' k to the premies, he makes the premies feel indebted to him. You said that M is not thankful to the premies for what they give him, but emphasizes they have a continuing obligation to give to him, and that this is how he controls and manipulates. Those words captured a great deal of what is desperately wrong with the cult and M.

Toldemso: Thank you also for your Journey. Your comments about your husband saying he shouldn't be 'attached' to his infant daughter was very upsetting to me. As Helen said above, M and the cult inculcated premies with those feelings so that the premie family would become primary, not the real family. I'm glad that your daughter had a mother such as you who was able to understand the emotional bankruptness of such an observation. How many premie guys was I involved with who dredged up that comment when they did not want to deal with real life?!!!

Marianne

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Date: Sun, Oct 01, 2000 at 23:13:45 (GMT)
From: Gregg
Email: None
To: Marianne
Subject: yes indeed
Message:
Salam and Toldemso, thanks. I find in your words about the past much truth about the dysfunctional ideas we once had about the nature of spirituality. We should be give ourselves a hug for having grown up a little.

(Hi M. Has M.B. gotten back to you? If not, I'll ask if she's heard from you.)

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Date: Mon, Oct 02, 2000 at 01:33:41 (GMT)
From: bill
Email: None
To: Gregg
Subject: yes indeed
Message:
Toldemso was lucky to bail out when he did.
Too bad about your sister
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Date: Sun, Oct 01, 2000 at 12:06:47 (GMT)
From: Salam
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: It did not happen
Message:
Arti

Many people have requested that we put the words to Arti on the site, so here they are. Originally in Hindi, and translated by Maharaji into English, this devotional song was sung twice a day by the ashram residents as part of their daily devotional routine. It was also sometimes sung to Maharaji at events by those in attendance.

JW gives this description of the twice-daily ritual:

Arti was sung, in the ashram, upon arising at 5:30 am. It was also sung after satsang in the evening. We also sang it to Maharaji at programs at the end of the evening satsang program.

There was a silver tray (called the Arti tray) on which was placed a cotton ball that had been soaked in clarified butter and formed into a cone shape. A bunch of these were made in advance and stored in the ashram refrigerator. The 'cone' was lit and someone was selected to hold and swing the arti tray in front of the altar while the premies sang arti, which was usually accompanied by a guitar. Depending on who was swinging the tray, it might be very under- or over-stated. Some people put on a regular dance act.

At the end of arti, all the premies would drop to the floor and prostrate in front of the altar with Maharaji's picture on it. Sometimes there was a little prayer said at this time, or a Bohle shri recital. The premies would rise from their pranams and sit on the floor. The person swinging the tray would then proceed around the room and put the light in front of each premie, who would wave his or her hands over the flame and then place the hands over his or her face.

At the same time, another premie would get the 'charnamarit' which is water that Maharaji supposedly stuck his lotus toes into. The 'charnamarit' was usually kept in a chrystal container with a silver spoon. Each premie was given a spoon-full of charnamarit, which was dripped into their hand, which was held, palm up, one hand on top of the other in front of the premie. The premie then drank the charnamirit from his or her hand and then premies usually whiped the residue on their faces and sometimes in their hair.

Arti - The English lyrics

Jai Gurudev Maharaj Ji
Your glory fills the world
Protector of the weary and the weak
You bring the death of attachment
You bring the mind true detachment
Save us from the ocean deep
Jai Dev, Jai Satgurudev

Creator, Preserver, Destroyer
Bow their heads and pray to You
All bow and pray to You
Scriptures sing Your glory
Heaveny hosts sing Your praises
Your virtues are ever true
Jai Dev, Jai Satgurudev

Chanting, fasting, charity, austerity
never bring you knowledge of the soul
will never reveal your soul
without the grace of satguru
without the Knowledge of Satguru
rites and rituals never reach the goal
Jai Dev, Jai Satgurudev

In the river of bondage to maya
All are swept out to sea
All are sinking in the depths of the sea
Guru's boat is the holy name
Guru's ship is the holy word
In seconds he has set us free
Jai Dev, Jai Satgurudev

In the river of bondage to maya
All are swept out to sea
All are sinking in the depths of the sea
Guru's boat is the holy name
Guru's ship is the holy word
In seconds he has set us free
Jai Dev, Jai Satgurudev

Anger, desire, attachments
Rob us of eternal life
Take away our heavenly life
Satguru gives us true Knowledge
Satguru is eternal Knowledge
The sword that kills our problem life
Jai Dev, Jai Satgurudev

Religions harp their own glories
Call to follow their own path
Welcome me to follow their own way
The essence of all was revealed
The seed of all was revealed
I walk on the true way today
Jai Dev, Jai Satgurudev

Nectar from Satguru's feet is
Holy and it cleans us of our sins
So sacred in cleaning us of sin
When he speaks, darkness flies away
When he speaks, darkness cannot stay
Doubts removed, new life then begins
Jai Dev, Jai Satgurudev

Mine, thine, Heart, Time
Give them to the lotus feet of love
Give them to the lotus feet of the Lord
Give yourself to Satguru
Sacrifice yourself to Satguru
Be united with the blissful Truth
Jai Dev, Jai Satgurudev

Bible, Gita, the Koran
Sing the glory of Your Name
They all sing the glory of Your Name
Angels sing Your great glory
Heavenly hosts sing Your praises
They find no end to Your fame
Jai Dev, Jai Satgurudev

Desires have robbed me and left me
Trapped in the darkness of the night
Yes, they've trapped me in the darkness of the night
Guru gives holy Name and Light
Guru gives Holy Name and Sight
Cross the ocean by His Love and Light
Jai Dev, Jai Satgurudev

Many past forms you have taken
Now we have come in your control
Again You have come to save the soul
In this time of darkness
To lead Your devotees from darkness
You have come as Hansa the pure soul
Jai Dev, Jai Satgurudev

Come to the shelter of Guru's grace
Come with your heart and your soul
Bring Him your heart and your soul
Cross the worldly ocean
Cross it by your devotion
And attain the supreme goal
Jai Dev, Jai Satgurudev

Jai Gurudev Maharaj Ji
Your glory fills the world
Protector of the weary and the weak
You bring the death of attachment
You bring the mind true detachment
Save us from the ocean deep
Jai Dev, Jai Satgurudev

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Date: Sun, Oct 01, 2000 at 13:01:37 (GMT)
From: Buzz
Email: None
To: Salam
Subject: It did not happen
Message:
Hi Salam,
The whole arti ritual is still done at the Bbj ashrams.
Regards
Buzz.
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Date: Sun, Oct 01, 2000 at 14:15:26 (GMT)
From: Salam
Email: None
To: Buzz
Subject: So you want to see Jesus?
Message:
Check

http://wvetsch.home.gs.net/WOW.gif

After you close you eyes, gently put your second and third fingers on your top eyelids and just pull the eyelid down a tinny bit. You will see the lord in all his glory.

Guru Cyberji Shri Salamji Dev

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Date: Mon, Oct 02, 2000 at 12:58:24 (GMT)
From: Aussie Aussie Aussie
Email: Oi ! Oi !Oi !
To: Salam
Subject: So you want to see Jesus?
Message:
Ahhhh '.com.au'. Very interesting.Sydney?
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Date: Sun, Oct 01, 2000 at 19:14:24 (GMT)
From: ExTex
Email: None
To: Salam
Subject: Very clever..cute (nt)
Message:
nt
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Date: Sun, Oct 01, 2000 at 17:05:09 (GMT)
From: gerry
Email: None
To: Salam
Subject: That was great !!!
Message:
Patty and I both saw Jesus! Enjoyed your journey entry also, Salam. Thanks.
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