Forum V: Archive
Compiled: Tues, Oct 10, 2000 at 09:50:49 (GMT)
From: Sep 26, 2000 To: Oct 07, 2000 Page: 3 Of: 5


ExTex -:- Continued Thread From Way Back -:- Sun, Oct 01, 2000 at 00:52:01 (GMT)
__ shp -:- Continued Thread From Way Back -:- Sun, Oct 01, 2000 at 23:13:41 (GMT)
__ Bin Liner -:- Continued Thread From Way Back -:- Sun, Oct 01, 2000 at 19:52:39 (GMT)
__ Tex -:- Really Red (ot) -:- Sun, Oct 01, 2000 at 03:35:33 (GMT)
__ __ ExTex -:- Really Red (ot) -:- Sun, Oct 01, 2000 at 05:00:06 (GMT)
__ __ __ ExTex -:- Tex are you out there? (OT) -:- Sun, Oct 01, 2000 at 07:59:34 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Tex -:- Tex are you out there? (OT) -:- Sun, Oct 01, 2000 at 08:37:33 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ ExTex -:- Tex are you out there? (OT) -:- Sun, Oct 01, 2000 at 09:25:26 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Tex -:- Tex are you out there? (OT) -:- Sun, Oct 01, 2000 at 18:06:46 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ ExTex -:- Does anyone know what..... (OT) -:- Sun, Oct 01, 2000 at 18:48:22 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ ExTex -:- Disregard above question, sorry.(NT) -:- Mon, Oct 02, 2000 at 21:10:17 (GMT)
__ bill -:- shp is a total waste of time. -:- Sun, Oct 01, 2000 at 02:22:40 (GMT)
__ __ shp -:- you're halfway home, bill. now stop commenting -:- Sun, Oct 01, 2000 at 23:16:09 (GMT)
__ __ __ bill -:- I will assist those that you ensnare sometimes-nt -:- Mon, Oct 02, 2000 at 01:36:59 (GMT)
__ __ ExTex -:- If shp is a total waste of time.. -:- Sun, Oct 01, 2000 at 03:22:59 (GMT)
__ __ __ shp -:- If shp is a total waste of time.. -:- Sun, Oct 01, 2000 at 23:20:34 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ bill -:- please dont post to me. -:- Mon, Oct 02, 2000 at 01:35:19 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ shp -:- indulge me this once, bill -:- Mon, Oct 02, 2000 at 12:26:08 (GMT)
__ __ __ bill -:- shp is a total waste of time.. -:- Sun, Oct 01, 2000 at 04:50:54 (GMT)
__ Rob -:- *Very well put ExTex* Good reading for all. nt -:- Sun, Oct 01, 2000 at 02:00:37 (GMT)

There is a question to -:- gerry in the 'Ashram debt' thread (nt) -:- Sun, Oct 01, 2000 at 00:26:46 (GMT)
__ gerry -:- Get lost you fucking weirdo nt -:- Sun, Oct 01, 2000 at 00:32:53 (GMT)

jim carpenter -:- Finding your main site and this forum -:- Sat, Sep 30, 2000 at 14:48:15 (GMT)
__ Bin Liner -:- Finding your main site and this forum -:- Sat, Sep 30, 2000 at 23:46:26 (GMT)
__ __ Rob -:- Now, now BL....... -:- Sun, Oct 01, 2000 at 00:50:19 (GMT)
__ Rob -:- Welcome Jim -:- Sat, Sep 30, 2000 at 16:35:02 (GMT)
__ __ jim carpenter -:- Welcome Jim -:- Sun, Oct 01, 2000 at 00:35:43 (GMT)
__ __ __ ExTex -:- My 2 cents worth -:- Sun, Oct 01, 2000 at 19:04:44 (GMT)
__ __ __ bill -:- Welcome Jim -:- Sun, Oct 01, 2000 at 02:49:59 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ cq -:- Welcome Jim too, and a point to Bill ... -:- Wed, Oct 04, 2000 at 18:21:52 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ bill -:- As you know, we have a Jim, so continue to post in -:- Sun, Oct 01, 2000 at 04:55:00 (GMT)
__ __ __ Rob -:- Happy to help -:- Sun, Oct 01, 2000 at 01:09:23 (GMT)
__ jim.carpenter -:- Finding your main site and this forum -:- Sat, Sep 30, 2000 at 14:56:47 (GMT)

Brian -:- Want to contact cult ex members in London -:- Sat, Sep 30, 2000 at 12:39:59 (GMT)
__ Salam -:- Want to contact cult ex members in London -:- Sat, Sep 30, 2000 at 13:13:09 (GMT)
__ __ Rob -:- Omigod you have to read this site -:- Sat, Sep 30, 2000 at 16:46:23 (GMT)
__ __ __ Buzz -:- Omigod you have to read this site -:- Sat, Sep 30, 2000 at 20:11:22 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ suchabanana -:- http://names.adidam.org -:- Sat, Sep 30, 2000 at 21:36:18 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ suchabanana -:- http://zoo.adidam.org/ -:- Sat, Sep 30, 2000 at 21:48:37 (GMT)

Salam -:- Redemption. -:- Sat, Sep 30, 2000 at 08:22:33 (GMT)
__ ExTex -:- Redemption. -:- Sat, Sep 30, 2000 at 10:58:26 (GMT)

suchabanana -:- M:'IT ISN'T EASY,IT'S NOT WHAT YOU THINK' -:- Sat, Sep 30, 2000 at 07:56:09 (GMT)
__ Roger eDrek -:- Zeitgeist, Mister Banana -:- Tues, Oct 03, 2000 at 04:17:36 (GMT)
__ __ suchabanana -:- Never leave room for doubt -:- Tues, Oct 03, 2000 at 07:15:54 (GMT)
__ ExTex -:- Long Beach Dec '95 -:- Sat, Sep 30, 2000 at 11:04:05 (GMT)

Jim -:- Holy fucking timewarp! -:- Sat, Sep 30, 2000 at 03:14:43 (GMT)
__ ExTex -:- It's just not fair! -:- Sat, Sep 30, 2000 at 10:46:37 (GMT)
__ __ cq -:- It's just not fair! -:- Sat, Sep 30, 2000 at 12:28:10 (GMT)
__ __ __ Janet of Venice -:- The Holy Family -:- Tues, Oct 03, 2000 at 15:17:28 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Jim -:- Have you actually tried to READ your post? -:- Wed, Oct 04, 2000 at 02:14:37 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Janet of Venice -:- The Holy Family -:- Tues, Oct 03, 2000 at 15:56:22 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ cq -:- The Holy Family -:- Wed, Oct 04, 2000 at 19:12:14 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ gerry -:- If you ask me, it DOES matter... -:- Thurs, Oct 05, 2000 at 00:42:48 (GMT)
__ __ __ bill -:- bbj's sons give darshan! bhole shit also!-nt -:- Mon, Oct 02, 2000 at 01:42:07 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Salam -:- Do you think -:- Mon, Oct 02, 2000 at 04:58:49 (GMT)

Elan Vital -:- Ashrams: A Successful Drug Rehabilitation Program -:- Fri, Sep 29, 2000 at 21:33:29 (GMT)
__ bill -:- Ashrams: A Successful Drug Rehabilitation Program -:- Sat, Sep 30, 2000 at 01:33:25 (GMT)
__ Gordon Showcase -:- Ashrams: A Successful Drug Rehabilitation Program -:- Fri, Sep 29, 2000 at 23:36:12 (GMT)
__ __ Elan Vital -:- Ashrams: A Successful Drug Rehabilitation Program -:- Sat, Sep 30, 2000 at 22:08:44 (GMT)
__ __ Tonette -:- Stop it already, that is too much -:- Sat, Sep 30, 2000 at 04:14:47 (GMT)

Buzz -:- Bbj -:- Fri, Sep 29, 2000 at 20:28:39 (GMT)
__ la-ex -:- Bbj/HERE'S A GOOD QUESTION FOR BBJ! -:- Mon, Oct 02, 2000 at 03:40:12 (GMT)
__ __ Salam -:- Bbj/HERE'S A GOOD QUESTION FOR BBJ! -:- Mon, Oct 02, 2000 at 05:03:38 (GMT)
__ cq -:- Bbj -:- Sat, Sep 30, 2000 at 12:19:42 (GMT)
__ la-ex -:- Bbj-let's come up with some good questions... -:- Sat, Sep 30, 2000 at 03:50:15 (GMT)
__ __ AJW -:- Bbj-let's come up with some good questions... -:- Sat, Sep 30, 2000 at 08:07:39 (GMT)
__ __ __ Salam -:- Also -:- Sat, Sep 30, 2000 at 12:43:41 (GMT)
__ bill -:- Bbj -:- Sat, Sep 30, 2000 at 01:32:15 (GMT)
__ __ Buzz -:- Bbj -:- Sat, Sep 30, 2000 at 15:08:57 (GMT)
__ __ __ ExTex -:- This could be facinating! (nt) -:- Sun, Oct 01, 2000 at 07:14:33 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Janet of Venice -:- This could be fascinating! -:- Tues, Oct 03, 2000 at 15:33:07 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Janet of Venice -:- This could be fascinating! -:- Tues, Oct 03, 2000 at 15:42:34 (GMT)

Yves -:- Scary links to cult-related sites -:- Fri, Sep 29, 2000 at 18:35:55 (GMT)
__ Yves -:- Scary links to cult-related sites -:- Fri, Sep 29, 2000 at 19:13:26 (GMT)

Jim -:- Difference between a Premie and a teletubby? -:- Fri, Sep 29, 2000 at 17:48:52 (GMT)
__ Tonette -:- What is the difference .. -:- Tues, Oct 03, 2000 at 02:30:11 (GMT)
__ Rob -:- You found THAT on ELK??? -:- Sat, Sep 30, 2000 at 00:14:20 (GMT)
__ __ Roger eDrek -:- One explanation - victims of the drug culture -:- Sat, Sep 30, 2000 at 01:33:54 (GMT)
__ __ __ Tonette -:- HARdeharharhar! Good one Roger nt -:- Sat, Sep 30, 2000 at 04:29:35 (GMT)
__ Yves -:- I don't know. What is it? -:- Fri, Sep 29, 2000 at 19:17:52 (GMT)
__ __ shp -:- I don't know. What is it? -:- Fri, Sep 29, 2000 at 23:03:04 (GMT)
__ __ __ Bin Liner -:- I don't know. What is it? -:- Sat, Sep 30, 2000 at 00:38:04 (GMT)

Yves -:- What will Fatrat do with plane when he retires -:- Fri, Sep 29, 2000 at 14:06:16 (GMT)
__ Tonette -:- Maybe Rawat will fly into a mountain nt -:- Sat, Sep 30, 2000 at 04:45:30 (GMT)
__ __ Patsy Cline -:- Flying into a mountain is a real blast (nt) -:- Sat, Sep 30, 2000 at 21:11:31 (GMT)

Steve -:- Charisma -:- Fri, Sep 29, 2000 at 10:54:47 (GMT)
__ Joe -:- Charisma -:- Sat, Sep 30, 2000 at 21:23:54 (GMT)
__ __ Scott T. -:- Charisma -:- Wed, Oct 04, 2000 at 02:37:15 (GMT)
__ Scott T. -:- Charisma -:- Sat, Sep 30, 2000 at 06:54:34 (GMT)
__ __ Steve -:- Charisma -:- Sat, Sep 30, 2000 at 10:18:40 (GMT)
__ __ __ Scott T. -:- Charisma -:- Sat, Sep 30, 2000 at 11:38:54 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Gregg -:- Thanks, Scott, Steve and Joe... -:- Sun, Oct 01, 2000 at 00:29:16 (GMT)
__ Bin Liner -:- Charisma -:- Fri, Sep 29, 2000 at 23:30:45 (GMT)
__ __ Steve -:- It's crumbling - he's falling! -:- Sat, Sep 30, 2000 at 10:22:28 (GMT)
__ Loaf -:- Great POST !! (NT) -:- Fri, Sep 29, 2000 at 17:10:56 (GMT)
__ Gregg -:- Charisma -:- Fri, Sep 29, 2000 at 14:47:31 (GMT)
__ __ Steve -:- Thanks Gregg -:- Fri, Sep 29, 2000 at 20:20:55 (GMT)
__ __ Way -:- So right-on, guys! (nt) -:- Fri, Sep 29, 2000 at 15:08:02 (GMT)
__ __ __ Disculta -:- Absolutely spot-on thread, chaps! -:- Sun, Oct 01, 2000 at 06:28:29 (GMT)

Tonette -:- Ashram Debt -:- Fri, Sep 29, 2000 at 08:12:38 (GMT)
__ Jean-Michel -:- All of His other experiments failed, BTW! -:- Sun, Oct 01, 2000 at 08:28:58 (GMT)
__ G -:- debt and closing -:- Sat, Sep 30, 2000 at 19:44:05 (GMT)
__ __ Joe -:- To G.... -:- Sat, Sep 30, 2000 at 21:03:12 (GMT)
__ __ __ G -:- To G.... -:- Sun, Oct 01, 2000 at 18:52:19 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Tonette -:- Thank you so very much! One more thing........... -:- Tues, Oct 03, 2000 at 02:08:21 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Tonette -:- This should be readily available, as in best of -:- Tues, Oct 03, 2000 at 02:05:40 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ ham -:- To G.... -:- Mon, Oct 02, 2000 at 11:45:20 (GMT)
__ __ __ Tonette -:- Please G would you post these remarks -:- Sun, Oct 01, 2000 at 06:34:47 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ ExTex -:- Please G would you post these remarks DITTO! (nt) -:- Sun, Oct 01, 2000 at 07:10:22 (GMT)
__ Joe -:- Maharaji's Ashram Scandal -:- Fri, Sep 29, 2000 at 17:16:28 (GMT)
__ __ Rob -:- *Excellent Post Joe* and PS to Glen -:- Sat, Sep 30, 2000 at 00:59:12 (GMT)
__ gerry -:- Experiment that failed -:- Fri, Sep 29, 2000 at 16:46:16 (GMT)
__ __ JohnT -:- Lardman Maha -:- Sat, Sep 30, 2000 at 08:03:16 (GMT)
__ The observant -:- Ashram Profits? -:- Fri, Sep 29, 2000 at 09:57:49 (GMT)
__ __ Way -:- Dream on, mr. observant -:- Fri, Sep 29, 2000 at 17:16:29 (GMT)
__ __ __ The observant -:- Dream on, mr. Way? -:- Fri, Sep 29, 2000 at 17:43:05 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Way -:- Response to: Dream on, mr. Way? -:- Fri, Sep 29, 2000 at 18:25:09 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ The observant -:- Response to: Dream on, mr. Way? -:- Fri, Sep 29, 2000 at 18:44:15 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Tonette -:- Thank you for your honesty -:- Sat, Sep 30, 2000 at 02:55:16 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Way -:- To Bjorn -:- Fri, Sep 29, 2000 at 18:50:15 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ The observant -:- To Way -:- Fri, Sep 29, 2000 at 19:48:48 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Tonette -:- Listen -:- Sat, Sep 30, 2000 at 03:08:30 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ gerry -:- OK Bjorn, you win -:- Fri, Sep 29, 2000 at 20:30:54 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Marianne -:- Yeah, Bjorn -:- Fri, Sep 29, 2000 at 21:49:33 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Rob -:- To Bjorn, friendly advice -:- Fri, Sep 29, 2000 at 22:26:34 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Kjarne -:- To ROB -:- Sat, Sep 30, 2000 at 15:55:28 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Rob -:- To KJARNE -:- Sat, Sep 30, 2000 at 16:20:35 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Bjørn the observant -:- To friendly advices -:- Sat, Sep 30, 2000 at 00:34:19 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ gerry -:- You continue to lie -:- Sat, Sep 30, 2000 at 20:08:51 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ gerry -:- Parting shot -:- Sat, Sep 30, 2000 at 19:04:17 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ A question to gerry -:- Why do you really lie, gerrry? -:- Sat, Sep 30, 2000 at 23:48:39 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Rob -:- You're hurting yourself here, my friend -:- Sun, Oct 01, 2000 at 01:55:16 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ gerry -:- You said 15 in an earlier post, stupes. -:- Sun, Oct 01, 2000 at 00:32:05 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ gerry -:- OK I made a mistake, you did say 14 originally. -:- Sun, Oct 01, 2000 at 01:05:38 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ ExTex -:- Brave and Honest Words. I wish you only...... -:- Sat, Sep 30, 2000 at 09:24:15 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Rob -:- Now you are talking like a human being -:- Sat, Sep 30, 2000 at 06:37:09 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Rob -:- Thanks cq - see I can be nice when I try!!! (nt) -:- Tues, Oct 03, 2000 at 03:37:34 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ cq -:- I really enjoyed reading that, Rob. Thanks. (nt) -:- Mon, Oct 02, 2000 at 18:18:52 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ cq -:- There's more to it than that, ain't there Rob? -:- Tues, Oct 03, 2000 at 19:09:34 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Tonette -:- You regard M as a friend? -:- Sat, Sep 30, 2000 at 03:34:45 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Salam -:- Is this another I cann't see posts? -:- Sat, Sep 30, 2000 at 01:00:51 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Way -:- Back to Bjorn -:- Fri, Sep 29, 2000 at 20:28:25 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ gerry -:- O you're an idiot and retarded socially to boot... -:- Fri, Sep 29, 2000 at 17:51:30 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Monmot -:- You do realize this is Bjorn you're talking to? nt -:- Fri, Sep 29, 2000 at 18:01:16 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ gerry -:- No I didn't but thanks for telling me. -:- Fri, Sep 29, 2000 at 18:04:51 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Joe -:- What 'mentality?' -:- Fri, Sep 29, 2000 at 17:50:11 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ The observant -:- What 'mentality?' -:- Fri, Sep 29, 2000 at 18:18:18 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ gerry -:- So Bjorn, spy any choice kiddies lately? -:- Fri, Sep 29, 2000 at 18:23:22 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Joe -:- What 'mentality?' -:- Fri, Sep 29, 2000 at 18:22:19 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Tonette -:- I missed something Observant. -:- Sat, Sep 30, 2000 at 04:08:48 (GMT)
__ __ Joe -:- Not the usual case... -:- Fri, Sep 29, 2000 at 16:56:24 (GMT)
__ __ __ Tonette -:- Thanks for the info and specifics -:- Sat, Sep 30, 2000 at 03:55:20 (GMT)
__ __ Tonette -:- That's interesting -:- Fri, Sep 29, 2000 at 10:13:27 (GMT)
__ __ __ Salam -:- That's interesting -:- Fri, Sep 29, 2000 at 10:37:23 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Yves -:- Smells like a lie to me -:- Fri, Sep 29, 2000 at 14:41:25 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Salam -:- If you know the observant -:- Fri, Sep 29, 2000 at 14:46:00 (GMT)
__ Salam -:- An Experiment that failed -:- Fri, Sep 29, 2000 at 09:32:41 (GMT)
__ __ Gordon Showcase -:- An Experiment that failed -:- Fri, Sep 29, 2000 at 13:43:15 (GMT)
__ __ __ Tonette -:- Your're full of shit -:- Sat, Sep 30, 2000 at 03:37:12 (GMT)
__ __ __ Elan Vital -:- Ashrams: A Successful Drug Prevention Program -:- Fri, Sep 29, 2000 at 21:19:59 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ ExTex -:- Booth Dyess!!! -:- Sat, Sep 30, 2000 at 09:58:09 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Janet of Venice -:- Booth Dyess!!! -:- Tues, Oct 03, 2000 at 17:16:51 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Boston Momma -:- Booth Dyess!!! -:- Sat, Sep 30, 2000 at 13:32:13 (GMT)


Date: Sun, Oct 01, 2000 at 00:52:01 (GMT)
From: ExTex
Email: None
To: shp
Subject: Continued Thread From Way Back
Message:
You (shp) left off with this ps, below:

ps I imagine you see a paradox in my support of both Nader and Maharaji....but your tone is conversational enough and you seem to be sure enough and secure enough in yourself that you don't have to attack me just because we disagree about the latter.
I'll be looking for your e-mail or posting.
-----------------------------------------------------------------
Well I am the one who brought up Ralph Nader, and I really don't want to get into a big heated political debate with my forum-mates...so maybe I opened a can of worms. (And YES I also support Nader and what he stands for.) But having said that, let me respond to your question.

Actually I wouldn't use the word 'paradox' about you being able to support M and also Nader. What I would call it is a HEALTHY direction. In the former days when you were required to show up to formal satsang meetings every night...there was no time to be involved in much of anything other than M & his 'mission'. Of course this was very intentionally designed to keep premies from 'spacing-out', ie Being involved in the real world outside of the cult.

For you and other devotees of Rawat to be involved with concerns and activities OUTSIDE of Rawatism is a mature and healthy thing because it will help you to get a better perspective on the cult,your relationship to it and yourself.

(I don't feel you need to respond to this next stuff but please just give it some serious thought)

As I have said..I was a practising devotee of GM for quite some time. When I began to lose confidence in the perfect master it did not happen over night. The indoctrination will not allow that. It also will not allow it to happen without a good deal of confusion, self-doubt, and fear! However, my experience was that these feelings were not right out front in my mind...no. They skirted around in the background because I couldn't allow them to just pop up and be center stage.
I NEVER ALLOWED MYSELF THE OPPORTUNITY to discuss any of it with anyone! I certainly could not talk to my fellow premies about it. And not always because I might not have found a sympathetic ear!
BUT MOSTLY because it was too hard to go against all of the satsang that I MYSELF HAD GIVEN FOR YEARS!!
To begin to understand that I was wrong and had made way too much of a commitment to the whole damn thing was terrifying. This was just unthinkable even though I had profound doubts about the whole experience. IT IS CALLED (cliche) DENIAL!

So what I did was start more and more getting involved in NON premie activities...with whatever rationalization I could muster up ...TO MYSELF. I started (gasp!) making contact with non premie friends. I started dropping the verbalizations about M&K out of my dialogue (INTERNAL & external)... I never made a big announcement to others nor did I even allow myself to dwell much on the fact that I was allowing myself to 'drift'.

Time went by and I slowly got more involved in NON-PREMIE activities (read: the real world) for the majority of my time. I read non 'spiritual' oriented books (history, biographies, fiction, etc) and slowly reinvented myself, but NEVER EVER TALKED ABOUT MY PREMIE HISTORY! I realize now that I was totally embarrassed and ashamed of my being exploited. But in a totally pschizoid way I still 'felt' superior to others (a new wife, friends, workmates, etc) because I 'had a spiritual secret'. More cult indoctrination that would take YEARS and YEARS to nullify!

THE POINT OF ALL THIS BLABBER IS THIS:
You do not just up and one day go from being a practising devotee of Rawat and the next day go..AHA I quit! It is a long process that you mostly aren't aware of as it is happening. There is a tremendous amount of fear and insecurity built into the 'arrested developement' fostered by a cult. It can be painful and humiliating. It can make you furious.. at anything but Rawat. Most probably you will be drifting from the fold before you even know that is what you are doing. That's okay. Just take life a step at a time, do your meditation if you feel like it and try to see where YOU ARE NOT OPEN MINDED ANYMORE about other people and things. Get involved in things that you care about...where ever they may appear. Or take time to drop out of things and that means the cult too.

So support Nader and The Greens, enjoy some live music, do whatever...IF RAWAT IS GOD ...He will understand....Remember that THAT THING is suppose to be the core of your very being....if that is so then YOU CANNOT MISPLACE IT! Don't worry, relax, take a deep breath and grab life by the throat and shake it!!

And there is no reason to attack you or other premies that show up here EXCEPT OUT OF SHEER FRUSTRATION! Many of you keep trying to tell us about M and the 'experience of K'. This is maddeningly arrogant as we are ALL former premies!!! WE KNOW AS MUCH (OR MORE) AS ANY OTHER PREMIES! Some premies lie or make ridiculously huge rationalizations, justifications and excuses for blatantly bogus things. This does get old and at times tempers will flare...words will fly...not out of hate, but sheer frustration.

I have no problem with agreeing to disagree, as long as lying and falsehoods are not being perpetrated. We are not perfect on this site but we seem to TRY TO KEEP THE COMPANY OF TRUTH. You are obviously not stupid and you seem to be a caring person with a conscience. You also try to be civil. I enjoy the discourse. As far as I am concerned you are welcome here, as long as you don't harangue us with cliched satsang that we all know by heart.
You can believe what you like, of course. But this is an EX-premie forum.

Peace and Wackiness to You.

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Date: Sun, Oct 01, 2000 at 23:13:41 (GMT)
From: shp
Email: None
To: ExTex
Subject: Continued Thread From Way Back
Message:
Hey ExTex,

I just got a chance to check my e-mail from all weekend. Thank you for explaining how you feel. Although I don't presently agree with your point of view, I respect your right to your opinion and experience without my trying to put anything on it.

I have a very busy week coming up and not the luxury of spending as much time here as I have recently. I haven't even read this whole thread yet.

I catch your drift about engaging in and with life and always knew and agreed with that too.

shp

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Date: Sun, Oct 01, 2000 at 19:52:39 (GMT)
From: Bin Liner
Email: None
To: ExTex
Subject: Continued Thread From Way Back
Message:

Thanks Tex, I enjoyed reading that.

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Date: Sun, Oct 01, 2000 at 03:35:33 (GMT)
From: Tex
Email: None
To: ExTex
Subject: Really Red (ot)
Message:
Hey guy, good to hear you, couldn’t figure out who you where, someone else put it together. I won’t out you, I was the guy who put up the beaded curtain. Alas, I can’t join the club, though reading here for several years I have faced some of the clutter.
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Date: Sun, Oct 01, 2000 at 05:00:06 (GMT)
From: ExTex
Email: None
To: Tex
Subject: Really Red (ot)
Message:
Bingo!
Do I know you...or the 'someone else' who put it together? The beaded curtain clue was a bit vague...it has been a long time. Give me another clue.
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Date: Sun, Oct 01, 2000 at 07:59:34 (GMT)
From: ExTex
Email: None
To: Tex
Subject: Tex are you out there? (OT)
Message:
I am completely baffled as to who you are. The reference in your 'subject' narrows it some, but that just makes it more curious....as it is a reference to a post-premie time!
I hope you post me another clue or two. You have really tweaked my curiousity...and it is driving me bats!

Please post again. Thanks

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Date: Sun, Oct 01, 2000 at 08:37:33 (GMT)
From: Tex
Email: None
To: ExTex
Subject: Tex are you out there? (OT)
Message:
Well... the other was your premie house papa. Playing golf with him in the morn.
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Date: Sun, Oct 01, 2000 at 09:25:26 (GMT)
From: ExTex
Email: None
To: Tex
Subject: Tex are you out there? (OT)
Message:
If that is former 'Beeks' partner... Wow! GIVE HIM MY BEST REGARDS!
Now who could you be? The Mars Man? A former police cadet? A saxophone player? A man with a truck company? Father of the 'Sky'? Hmmmm I'm stumped.
Beaded curtain? Hmmm....
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Date: Sun, Oct 01, 2000 at 18:06:46 (GMT)
From: Tex
Email: None
To: ExTex
Subject: Tex are you out there? (OT)
Message:
You got it, 'The Beeks', not dennis,max,grevs,neils,or allen. I was 'The Exterminator', or the guy sleeping in the bed across the room.

Anyway, I think I am taking up to much OT time here and if you want to talk in these forum formats, I would feel much safer in AG forum or the 'Lifes a Shoe' forum. I go by Wm or Mw.

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Date: Sun, Oct 01, 2000 at 18:48:22 (GMT)
From: ExTex
Email: None
To: ALL
Subject: Does anyone know what..... (OT)
Message:
...forums are being refered to by Tex in his last post? He's an old roommate from one of the premie houses I lived in. It has been a long long long time. I am curious.
thanks for any info.
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Date: Mon, Oct 02, 2000 at 21:10:17 (GMT)
From: ExTex
Email: None
To: ALL
Subject: Disregard above question, sorry.(NT)
Message:
nt
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Date: Sun, Oct 01, 2000 at 02:22:40 (GMT)
From: bill
Email: None
To: ExTex
Subject: shp is a total waste of time.
Message:
Hi ex tex, good post.
part of the annoyance of shp is his LONG time here that was spent teaseing us with his bullshit.
He wasted our time in a thousand ways.
You are new to him and dont know that he is not honest or sincere. His ailment is more than the premie dilemma.
He is one of those people that suck the life out of those that he lives with. Others have verbalized his condition very well.
I cant do the job they did.
I wont read him.
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Date: Sun, Oct 01, 2000 at 23:16:09 (GMT)
From: shp
Email: None
To: bill
Subject: you're halfway home, bill. now stop commenting
Message:
about me and you will be truly free. You're still talking to me only one step removed. Let go!
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Date: Mon, Oct 02, 2000 at 01:36:59 (GMT)
From: bill
Email: None
To: shp
Subject: I will assist those that you ensnare sometimes-nt
Message:
;lrrg
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Date: Sun, Oct 01, 2000 at 03:22:59 (GMT)
From: ExTex
Email: None
To: bill
Subject: If shp is a total waste of time..
Message:
Thanks for the warning. I admit that I am new here and there is a whole lot that I missed that might put perspective on things going on now. I have also seen the wankers who are either plants or insincere flaming arseholes who just are here to disrupt and annoy. (shroom, fer instance)

I know you are sincere about your warning in this case and it is appreciated. But do not take offense if I say that I try to take everyone on their merits or lack of them that I experience and perceive myself. (perception is such a slippery slope sometimes, that I try to rely on my own...if possible).

Also I believe that we should always allow people the room to grow and change....an asshole can learn and change....and it isn't very constructive or supportive to hold people to 'who they WERE', when they might be growing and changing. They might be TRYING but also trying to hold on to a shred of dignity as they see their errors. We all do that, and should be able to spot it in others (but it is kind of hard in cyberspace)

Just think if we were forever judged on our past statements and actions? (I cringe in horror....I satsanged my parents, my sister, and all my friends into getting indoctrinated!!!) We have got to try to allow these curious premies who come here to have a shred of dignity...as M has already taken almost all of their self esteem.
I've got nothing to lose. Being civil and giving someone the benefit of the doubt ain't no skin off my ass.

If they are playing games...give 'em enough rope and they will hang themselves! Then 'FLAME-ON!!' Shredding time!
And I think I can hold my own and give no quarter to die-hard arseholes.
Thanks again, Bill.

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Date: Sun, Oct 01, 2000 at 23:20:34 (GMT)
From: shp
Email: None
To: ExTex
Subject: If shp is a total waste of time..
Message:
To my sensibilities, yours is the way of a devotee of truth, whether you are with Maharaji or not, as described in how you treat others. -shp
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Date: Mon, Oct 02, 2000 at 01:35:19 (GMT)
From: bill
Email: None
To: shp
Subject: please dont post to me.
Message:
at least I am being more real about those around me
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Date: Mon, Oct 02, 2000 at 12:26:08 (GMT)
From: shp
Email: None
To: bill
Subject: indulge me this once, bill
Message:
We know each other, man. Back up in Hartford when I was bouncing around and you were part of the premie community. We were friends. I am not addressing you as a persuasion back to Maharaji. This is just between you and me. We both know he wants premies to leave folks alone about him if they don't want to hear it. But all you guys do is talk about him around here, so it's my input you don't like, not the fact that I am talking about him. In a Forum, a variety of ideas are presented. Right?
And I assure you it is not my intention to 'save' anybody here and bring them 'back' or anything like that.

We disagree, that's all there is to it. I don't claim the moral high ground here and I don't think you have the right to either.
Our experience of/with Maharaji is different. Why do you have such an urgent need to demonize me? There are people who feel the same way about you as you feel about me and have stories to back them up too. But I try to tune all that out. I believe in one-to-one relationships being the truest level of human contact outside one's own self, and when you try to create a war between two sides of any issue, you end up with good hearted, well-meaning, hardworking fathers facing each other with guns on battlefields, having no personal gripes and having much in common, being manipulated into pawns of the agendas of others.
It will never come to that with us I am pretty sure, but there sure is alot of cyerwar going on here and I see no need for it.

I wish you and your family all the best,

sandy

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Date: Sun, Oct 01, 2000 at 04:50:54 (GMT)
From: bill
Email: None
To: ExTex
Subject: shp is a total waste of time..
Message:
I wouldnt call him an asshole.
Just that so many people spent vast amounts of time with him here and he was leading us on.
These days he has a different forum face but he will lead you on
and not listen to what you say.
You are resonable and sensible in your posts to him.
If you find it is useful to stretch out on a subject using his post as a vehicle, that is one thing. At least you (and us that read you) can enjoy your expression.
If you post for his benefit in any way, he is stealing your time. He is not interested. He has pretended way too much to many people here. He is abusive.
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Date: Sun, Oct 01, 2000 at 02:00:37 (GMT)
From: Rob
Email: None
To: ExTex
Subject: *Very well put ExTex* Good reading for all. nt
Message:
nt
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Date: Sun, Oct 01, 2000 at 00:26:46 (GMT)
From: There is a question to
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: gerry in the 'Ashram debt' thread (nt)
Message:
nt
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Date: Sun, Oct 01, 2000 at 00:32:53 (GMT)
From: gerry
Email: None
To: Stupes
Subject: Get lost you fucking weirdo nt
Message:
nt
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Date: Sat, Sep 30, 2000 at 14:48:15 (GMT)
From: jim carpenter
Email: jim.carpenter!talk21.com
To: Everyone
Subject: Finding your main site and this forum
Message:
Maharaji was my life for over 20 years. I help in the 1st trip to Eagland of Maharaji, in the very early days of the the Divine light Mission.
today I was looking on the web to help stop my son from going down the same road as me by hopefully showing he what Elan Vital stands for today. I show he what he a did to get his so called 'Knowledge'
all I got from him to tell me the all the things on your site was lie's give out by people that had not at anytime be give any knowledge.
Elan Vital (Divine Light Mission) has told him and all new devotees that looking at your site will stop them form going to meting , to the point the he asked me NOT to tell anyone that he as look at you site.
After I show him so very old pic's of me with Maharaji as a young boy he still told me that HE IS WALK IN THE LIGHT and that he was so sorry that I had loss my way.
Thank you for your site and this way of talking to people in the same place as me . All I can hope is that useing this site I can show he the way to come home.

jim

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Date: Sat, Sep 30, 2000 at 23:46:26 (GMT)
From: Bin Liner
Email: None
To: jim carpenter
Subject: Finding your main site and this forum
Message:

You've got an excellent, may I say 'intuitive', understanding of how the 'present perfect' tense works in English, remarkable in a non-native speaker of the language, and quite at odds with the other 'mistakes' you make.

Taking the piss is fine with me,just don't bring your son into it o.k.

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Date: Sun, Oct 01, 2000 at 00:50:19 (GMT)
From: Rob
Email: None
To: Bin Liner
Subject: Now, now BL.......
Message:
Give the man a break, we can't assume everyone who appears here posting in less than perfect English is an imposter. It's no skin off my nose if he turns out to be so, may as well go along for the ride. There's easy ways to find out, anyway.....

Watch this thread.

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Date: Sat, Sep 30, 2000 at 16:35:02 (GMT)
From: Rob
Email: None
To: jim carpenter
Subject: Welcome Jim
Message:
Hi Jim

Found it a bit hard to read your post, perhaps English is not your first language, although your name would suggest it is?

Anyway, one thing I did pick up on was a suggestion that Elan Vital had told your son that viewing the Ex-Premie website will stop him from going to meetings.

Did I read this right? If so, would you elaborate a bit. Who was it said that, and exactly what was said? Was it at a meeting or in the form of a letter?

Has your son actually received Knowledge, and if so, how did he first hear about it?

Many of us here have experienced similar conflicts with family members. I recently separated from my wife because of the increasing rifts between us - I left the cult a year or so ago and she is still deeply devoted to this person she thinks is god.
So if you'd like to share your feelings about these difficulties, you will find empathy and support here should you need it.

Rob

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Date: Sun, Oct 01, 2000 at 00:35:43 (GMT)
From: jim carpenter
Email: jim.carpenter1@talk21.com
To: Rob
Subject: Welcome Jim
Message:
Rob and to all
Sorry if you found it hard to read my last post.
All I can said is that I was coming down from trying to talk to my son about what Elan vital stands for today.
He was told at a meeting that reading the Ex.premie website is somthing a lover of 'm' will not do and to do so will stop him being part of the group.
I left over 10 years ago and till today had be so happy.
so what do you say to a a 20 year old that is willing to give up his wife if she does not join too.
I do not know what to say to him or the best way to play it. If you can help with what to say then let me know.
thank you again
jim
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Date: Sun, Oct 01, 2000 at 19:04:44 (GMT)
From: ExTex
Email: None
To: jim carpenter
Subject: My 2 cents worth
Message:
I would suggest that NO MATTER WHAT you stay in CONTACT with him! Even if you have to compromise a little, even if you have to bite your tongue and be silent at times, even if you have to struggle to do so.... but STAY IN CONTACT WITH HIM! It could even take YEARS!

You must not sever the ties that you have because of the cult because THAT is exactly what will try to be forced! Either you join him or you are ditched...that is the agenda. But you must be strong and try to practise UNCONDITIONAL LOVE> It will probably be difficult BUT HE MUST HAVE A GUT LEVEL FEELING THAT YOU ARE THERE! There will come a time that he will need to have you there, hopefully.

Also LEAVE ROOM FOR HIS OWN DIGNITY AND A SHRED OF SELF RESPECT! Don't try to completely obliterate him intellectually...it won't work. Logical arguements have nothing to do with cult mentality.

Check in here..let us know how it is going and feel free to ask for advice. (Which might or might not be of use.)

Good luck to you and yours.
(ExTex to ExTex: That was about six bucks worth NOT 2 cents!)

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Date: Sun, Oct 01, 2000 at 02:49:59 (GMT)
From: bill
Email: None
To: jim carpenter
Subject: Welcome Jim
Message:
Tell him the truth that prem rawat has cheated on his wife for a couple decades and also that he shunned his own mom for 18 years till she died.
One of his long running mistresses is named monica lewis.
He shuns 2 of his brothers for 20+ years now.
He drinks and smokes pot.
Get the link to the 'guru papers' that is available from the web site.
Read that and give a copy to his wife.
Read here to strengthen your clarity about this.
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Date: Wed, Oct 04, 2000 at 18:21:52 (GMT)
From: cq
Email: None
To: bill
Subject: Welcome Jim too, and a point to Bill ...
Message:
Hi there, Bill, don't think we've exchanged posts here before.

Maybe the accusations about M's lifestyle that you mention are less effective than you might think in opening people's eyes to the Maha's game.

For someone who has never heard of him before, it might trigger warning lights for them, but for people who are half-way towards falling for the Maha, then those accusations are all too easily dismissed as being the product of rumour and distortion (however true/untrue they might actually be).

The real humdinger that EV is petrified of is the actual HISTORY. The fact that M did claim to be 'that superior power in person' (i.e. God) and that he would 'bring peace to the world' etc. etc. - those facts about who and what he's formerly presented himself as, (preferably given in a form that's unclouded by personal opinion/bias/prejudice) are what will make people sit up and re-evaluate, IMO.

M's and EV's attempts to deny their past can only make people suspicious. And attempting to re-write that past can only do them damage - AS LONG AS THE TRUE HISTORICAL FACTS ARE KNOWN. But to current aspirants, the allegations that ex-premie.org presents an inaccurate history (which I presume is part and parcel of EV's 'stay away' campaign) - is enough to deter them from finding out for themselves.

Unfortunately, ex-premie.org has somehow got a reputation among premies as being full of lies. One wonders why this reputation has spread? Could it be because of unsubstantiated rumours like the ones you mention in your post?

If people really took the trouble to read ALL of the website, (and not just the Forum), it might change their views.

At the end of the day, the evident fact that the Maha attempts to deter current 'seekers' from finding out about his history is ... well, what can you call it? Talk about shooting himself in the (lotus?) foot!

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Date: Sun, Oct 01, 2000 at 04:55:00 (GMT)
From: bill
Email: None
To: bill
Subject: As you know, we have a Jim, so continue to post in
Message:
a way that lets us know that you are you.
Thanks.
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Date: Sun, Oct 01, 2000 at 01:09:23 (GMT)
From: Rob
Email: None
To: jim carpenter
Subject: Happy to help
Message:
More than happy to lend a hand to a fellow soul Jim, we just need to clear one or two things up first, if that's OK?

You mentioned in your first post having shown your son photographs of yourself with maharaji 'as a young boy'. So where were they taken, and how old was Maharaji? 'Young boy' would seem to indicate your were with him in India before he came to the West at age 14, or do you consider mid-teens to be 'young boys'? Perhpas you could email them to the forum admin at the link above - we collect little gems like that!!

Glad to see you regained your command of English a bit, must be a tremendous strain emotionally watching your loved one being sucked in like that, right in front of you. I thought for a minute you may have been doing mushrooms! (Sorry, bit of an in-joke)

It seems you have two problems, that of your son being drawn in the cult, and his threatening to leave his wife if she does not join. Did he already have knowledge before they were married? How long have they been wed? This is important as it will help us to structure the kind of advice which will be most useful.

Oh and one more thing, in what way did you help in maharajis first trip to England? Was that with Joan Apter and Glen Whittaker?

Rob

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Date: Sat, Sep 30, 2000 at 14:56:47 (GMT)
From: jim.carpenter
Email: jim.carpenter1@talk21.com
To: all
Subject: Finding your main site and this forum
Message:
sorry MY email address is

jim.carpenter1@talk21.com

and not

JIM.CARPENTER!@TALK21.COM

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Date: Sat, Sep 30, 2000 at 12:39:59 (GMT)
From: Brian
Email: brian@ex-premie.org
To: Everyone
Subject: Want to contact cult ex members in London
Message:
This was forwarded by Jan Groenveld of the Cult Awareness and Information Centre in Australia.

---------- Jan's message ----------
I have been in contact with this journalist and he is genuine. He has a website at: http://easyweb.easynet.co.uk/~durham/ As you will see he was involved in exposing the cult Tvind.

If you can help or know someone hwo can talk to him please pass this on.

Jan Groenveld

---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: Thu, 28 Sep 2000 10:04:51 -0700
From: Michael Durham
Email: cultresearch2000@yahoo.co.uk

Is anybody reading this news group in London or the south east of England?

I am a journalist researching cults (old and new) active in the London area for a news feature article. I would be really interested to hear from anyone who was either in a cult (or cult-like movement), has heard of any new movements, or who has experience of friends or members of their family joining up.

Obviously I wish to pass on people's stories but I can guarantee anonymity or change names if absolutely necessary.

Some of the groups I am interested in are:

Life Training
School of Economic Science
Klausur
Int Church of Christ
Sokka Gakkai
Tvind/Humana/Planet Aid
TM
Moonies
Lanmark
Scientology

I'd be particularly interested in any new or lesser known ones. Any ideas?

Thanks, Michael Durham

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Date: Sat, Sep 30, 2000 at 13:13:09 (GMT)
From: Salam
Email: None
To: Brian
Subject: Want to contact cult ex members in London
Message:
His Tvind web site is:

www.tvindalert.org.uk

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Date: Sat, Sep 30, 2000 at 16:46:23 (GMT)
From: Rob
Email: None
To: Salam
Subject: Omigod you have to read this site
Message:
Follow the link salam gave: www.tvindalert.org.uk

Here's a snippet:


Tvind even has its own reclusive guru, Mogens Amdi Petersen, who has not been seen for 20 years. According to some reports, he's an austere, monk-like figure who wields absolute power over his cult followers. According to others, he's a playboy with a harem of now rather ageing Danish women, a beachside apartment, a mansion and a fleet of Mercedes...

So many similarities, it's creepy.

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Date: Sat, Sep 30, 2000 at 20:11:22 (GMT)
From: Buzz
Email: None
To: Rob
Subject: Omigod you have to read this site
Message:
Try this one>
HTTP:/names.addidam.org/woh.htm
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Date: Sat, Sep 30, 2000 at 21:36:18 (GMT)
From: suchabanana
Email: None
To: Buzz
Subject: http://names.adidam.org
Message:
nt
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Date: Sat, Sep 30, 2000 at 21:48:37 (GMT)
From: suchabanana
Email: None
To: buzz and everybody
Subject: http://zoo.adidam.org/
Message:
http://zoo.adidam.org/
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Date: Sat, Sep 30, 2000 at 08:22:33 (GMT)
From: Salam
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: Redemption.
Message:
After reading the Observant/Bjorne reply below I feel like shit.

But who gives a fuck?

Is F5 the place for premies before their final journey?

I am really touched. Someone tell me it OK or I am gonna start kicking myself.

Salam the sensitive at present.

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Date: Sat, Sep 30, 2000 at 10:58:26 (GMT)
From: ExTex
Email: None
To: Salam
Subject: Redemption.
Message:
ALL THINGS MUST PASS.

and...uh

Never look a gift horse in the enchilada.

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Date: Sat, Sep 30, 2000 at 07:56:09 (GMT)
From: suchabanana
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: M:'IT ISN'T EASY,IT'S NOT WHAT YOU THINK'
Message:
$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$
'You know some people don't like rich people. They have this idea or that idea of what it is to be rich. But they really don't know. It's not easy to be rich. It isn't. Once you've made your first million, you need another to protect it. Then you have two million, and you'll need another two million to protect those two million. Then you'll have four million and you'll need another four million to protect those four million, and then you'll have eight million. Of course then you'll need another 8 million to protect those eight million and then you'll have 16 million... it isn't easy, it's not what you think.'

-- Maharaji speaking at Long Beach, December 1995

'IT ISN'T EASY,IT'S NOT WHAT YOU THINK'$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$
'IT ISN'T EASY,IT'S NOT WHAT YOU THINK'$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$'IT ISN'T EASY,IT'S NOT WHAT YOU THINK'$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$'IT ISN'T EASY,IT'S NOT WHAT YOU THINK'$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$'IT ISN'T EASY,IT'S NOT WHAT YOU THINK'$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$'IT ISN'T EASY,IT'S NOT WHAT YOU THINK'$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$'IT ISN'T EASY,IT'S NOT WHAT YOU THINK'$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$'IT ISN'T EASY,IT'S NOT WHAT YOU THINK'$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$'IT ISN'T EASY,IT'S NOT WHAT YOU THINK'$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$'IT ISN'T EASY,IT'S NOT WHAT YOU THINK'$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$'IT ISN'T EASY,IT'S NOT WHAT YOU THINK'$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$'IT ISN'T EASY,IT'S NOT WHAT YOU THINK'$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$'IT ISN'T EASY,IT'S NOT WHAT YOU THINK'$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$'IT ISN'T EASY,IT'S NOT WHAT YOU THINK'$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$'IT ISN'T EASY,IT'S NOT WHAT YOU THINK'$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$'IT ISN'T EASY,IT'S NOT WHAT YOU THINK'$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$

Yes, sirree, tell us ALL about it, please! We wouldn't know, of course, but nevertheless we'd love all the line-item details. How did you do it? Obviously, with all those little side accounts and corporations set up, you're right, it wasn't easy. Yes, we do realize it's not what we think. But then, we're not supposed to think, after all, are we? A mind is terrible thing to have, right?

You know, if all the premies [devotees/students] truly thought deeply about what your very revealing and informative message really means, then some very strange things might happen, indeed -- a lila of planetary proportions.

Dude, it certainly looks like you sold everybody out, so you could wallow in the luxury of the Maya [the material illusion]-- the cumulative evidence certainly indicates that you defiled and abused your position and the 'gift of this Knowledge'-- used and sold out your very own devotees (who sacrificed and made you what you are today) and you got filthy rich, in the process. If this isn't so, and you haven't been playing with a loaded deck, then just lay all those cards out on the table for the world to see. All the contributions from Day 1 in the West (gross revenues 1971-2000), all the ashram money, all the corporations and owners, the taxes paid, even the cash transported in suitcases, the startup money for the textbook corp., and where it all came from and where it all went...

Where did the money come from to purchase back the house? Buy the big luxury yacht? helicopters? land? residences around the world? Who really owns what -- limited liability corporations have names of actual people who are the owners? Who owns Amaroo? Why was an expensive house purchased for a young woman unrelated to you? Why did another woman sue your Seva Corp.?

When people made contributions for the Gulfstream jet and the conference center land, etc., most thought they were giving to EVI to own -- as a non-profit corp., and to be handled accordingly and appropriately. Why all the double-talk from Elan Vital? Don't you think your paying patrons and many sponsors have a right to know -- a full disclosure?!

What kind of scam is this, dude?! If you're really the satguru, then why did you fatten yourself materially and grossly at the sacred altar of your own trusting devotees? Have you no shame?!

'The Giver and the Gift' = The Smuggler and the Gift with Strings Attached. Shame, shame, shame. Devotion to you = $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$

To earn even $16,000,000 would take most of your Western devotees and their families about 20-30 lifetimes, and your Indian devotees 150+ lifetimes, and your African devotees 250+ lifetimes.

How many hundreds of millions of dollars have actually passed through DLM and EVI hands? Just on paper, man, it looks like you have at least $50 million to $100 million in assets freely at your personal disposal, in addition to all the expenses that have been paid by the premies. That doesn't even include the money and assets you actually own now, or the luxurious gifts (including cars) solicited for you, or the gifts genuinely given to you.

Don't you think that's kind of disgusting -- oh, fallen one, who used us, abused us, and sold us out for the indulgent, addicting temptations of the filthy Maya (illusion of the material world).

A great king takes cares of his subjects, mister. How about what you did to the ashram premies? How about the sexually abused kids? How about the Truth? You're supposed to deal in truth, right, oh Satguru?!

Well, the gig's up, dude! The party's over. No more idolatry, dough, or dedication from those who have awakened to the 'cheat and deceit' of this game -- and those who are even now waking up, too.

You're set anyway, right, so what do you care?! You obviously don't really care what happens to the premies, anyway.

PLEASE, prove us wrong here. I would really like to see that from you. 'fess up, spill the beans. The whole truth and nothing but the truth. But, you don't have it in you, or do you?
Prove us wrong, Maharaji -- or confess, apologize, and surrender those reins yourself. We actually believed in you and trusted you...

Sincerely
(on behalf of thousands of other concerned human beings on this planet who feel betrayed by you -- and your callous, self-indulgent, megalomanical greed)

P.S. Yes, the Knowledge is within us. We were born with it. Only the energy of the Universe itself has a monopoly on the truth. If you can simply give Knowledge with a video machine, or get the techniques from a book, then anybody who has ever faithfully practiced the techniques and had an inner experience is qualified and can teach this Knowledge. Now, that's the real truth.

Yes, you helped spread this Knowledge -- but you did it by participating in a scam that only enriched yourself. Shame, shame, shame. So -- prove us wrong, please! 'Cheat and deceit, indeed.' Everything was just for you, you, you. Devotion to you in the form of money for you, luxurious gifts for you, expense accounts for you, planes for you, houses for you, land for you, power for you, idol worship to you, you, you.

You talk about humility -- where's yours, dude? When have you ever not had things handed to you on a silver platter, in this entire life? $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$

The party's over, man. Slavery is hereby abolished!

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Date: Tues, Oct 03, 2000 at 04:17:36 (GMT)
From: Roger eDrek
Email: drek@oz.net
To: suchabanana
Subject: Zeitgeist, Mister Banana
Message:
Nice post!

Just this weekend I've been pondering about all the money that Mahrajabba the Hut has stolen from his premies and I've been pissed about it, too. I think seeing the specific details on EPO about the yacht. Until seeing them I had only heard about it and until it really materializes the good premie still within myself will squirm and deny that Maharaji would do anything like that.

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Date: Tues, Oct 03, 2000 at 07:15:54 (GMT)
From: suchabanana
Email: None
To: Roger eDrek
Subject: Never leave room for doubt
Message:
ditto, brother! Incredible!!! The yacht was the coup de grace...

Rog: Besides daily practicing 3 techniques (inner Light, inner Sounds, and Breath meditation) -- I personally recommend the MAHAMANTRA to cure oneself of that latent impulse of doubt (and attain enlightenment of the truth).

The MAHAMANTRA:
'...Once you've made your first million, you need another to protect it. Then you have two million, and you'll need another two million to protect those two million. Then you'll have four million and you'll need another four million to protect those four million, and then you'll have eight million. Of course then you'll need another 8 million to protect those eight million and then you'll have 16 million... it isn't easy, it's not what you think.'

{repeat this mantra 1000 times while looking at Maharaji's picture, to attain complete enlightenment!!!]

The MAHAMANTRA:
'...Once you've made your first million, you need another to protect it. Then you have two million, and you'll need another two million to protect those two million. Then you'll have four million and you'll need another four million to protect those four million, and then you'll have eight million. Of course then you'll need another 8 million to protect those eight million and then you'll have 16 million... it isn't easy, it's not what you think.'
'...Once you've made your first million, you need another to protect it. Then you have two million, and you'll need another two million to protect those two million. Then you'll have four million and you'll need another four million to protect those four million, and then you'll have eight million. Of course then you'll need another 8 million to protect those eight million and then you'll have 16 million... it isn't easy, it's not what you think.'
'...Once you've made your first million, you need another to protect it. Then you have two million, and you'll need another two million to protect those two million. Then you'll have four million and you'll need another four million to protect those four million, and then you'll have eight million. Of course then you'll need another 8 million to protect those eight million and then you'll have 16 million... it isn't easy, it's not what you think.'
'...Once you've made your first million, you need another to protect it. Then you have two million, and you'll need another two million to protect those two million. Then you'll have four million and you'll need another four million to protect those four million, and then you'll have eight million. Of course then you'll need another 8 million to protect those eight million and then you'll have 16 million... it isn't easy, it's not what you think.'
'...Once you've made your first million, you need another to protect it. Then you have two million, and you'll need another two million to protect those two million. Then you'll have four million and you'll need another four million to protect those four million, and then you'll have eight million. Of course then you'll need another 8 million to protect those eight million and then you'll have 16 million... it isn't easy, it's not what you think.'
'...Once you've made your first million, you need another to protect it. Then you have two million, and you'll need another two million to protect those two million. Then you'll have four million and you'll need another four million to protect those four million, and then you'll have eight million. Of course then you'll need another 8 million to protect those eight million and then you'll have 16 million... it isn't easy, it's not what you think.'
'...Once you've made your first million, you need another to protect it. Then you have two million, and you'll need another two million to protect those two million. Then you'll have four million and you'll need another four million to protect those four million, and then you'll have eight million. Of course then you'll need another 8 million to protect those eight million and then you'll have 16 million... it isn't easy, it's not what you think.'
'...Once you've made your first million, you need another to protect it. Then you have two million, and you'll need another two million to protect those two million. Then you'll have four million and you'll need another four million to protect those four million, and then you'll have eight million. Of course then you'll need another 8 million to protect those eight million and then you'll have 16 million... it isn't easy, it's not what you think.'
'...Once you've made your first million, you need another to protect it. Then you have two million, and you'll need another two million to protect those two million. Then you'll have four million and you'll need another four million to protect those four million, and then you'll have eight million. Of course then you'll need another 8 million to protect those eight million and then you'll have 16 million... it isn't easy, it's not what you think.'
'...Once you've made your first million, you need another to protect it. Then you have two million, and you'll need another two million to protect those two million. Then you'll have four million and you'll need another four million to protect those four million, and then you'll have eight million. Of course then you'll need another 8 million to protect those eight million and then you'll have 16 million... it isn't easy, it's not what you think...'

If your doubts persist, then remember, 'never leave room for doubt':
1. go to: http://www.westportyachtsales.com
2. then click: yacht brokerage
3. then click: featured vessels
4. then click: Wesiport shipyard {fourth from top of list} 112'
5. Bingo! Year 2000 base model price (similar 106' Westport yacht) Add on the requisite custom luxury modifications.

Yacht is listed on EPO (from the company's registration) as being for the 'personal' benefit/use of the owner. Premie Kathy Gliebe (I know her) is the listed director/officer of Premo Marine Inc. But who is the real owner and user? Go figure...

Peace always (especially this moment, when we need it the most),

da swami

PS Roger: Can you help me set up a healing/inspirational and 100% positive website? I have communicated with some other exes about this, and also some freaked premies, all of whom still like to meditate on their own, but I need some technical advice/assistance (Mac format).

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Date: Sat, Sep 30, 2000 at 11:04:05 (GMT)
From: ExTex
Email: None
To: suchabanana
Subject: Long Beach Dec '95
Message:
If that 'satsang' from the 'Perfect Master' doesn't sound exactly like the ramblings of some raving nutcase scrooge...

then you can just call me ExLax!

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Date: Sat, Sep 30, 2000 at 03:14:43 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: Holy fucking timewarp!
Message:
[Below are the questions and answers from Maharaji's older brother, Satpal's, website,

http://www.manavdharam.org/index.html

This is so funny, it's too funny to really get. It's infinitely funny, so funny, it just keeps going up, up...

Satpal is still selling the old classic family recipe which Maharaji's tried to distance himself from and, indeed, if pressed, deny altogether. But here it is, the real thing, the whole superstitious Indian hokum.

One thing that's clear is that, as silly and life-defeating as this nonsense is, it's at least easier to digest mentally than Maharaji's current vagueness-for-vagueness sake bullshit. It's almost a relief to see Satpal actually say something, actually stand for something, regardless of how ridiculous it is. Anyway, here it is. The rest of the site is a hoot too.]

How can we know what is the proper balance in our lives?

The more you meditate, the more balance you’ll have in life. A person who doesn’t meditate can’t understand that, but people who have done meditation understand that the more you meditate the more balance you get. You have worldly obligations, and you blend spirituality with them. You say, “I have to work this much for my living and this much action performed in the world will give me enough food and clothing, enough time for my spiritual practice.” I think that it is on the basis of the spiritual experience that you can balance yourself. It naturally happens. When you throw a log into the water it does not swim - it does not have the power to swim. It floats with the water. So in meditation you throw yourself into that stream of life, it picks you up and you can go with that.

How can we actually see and know God for sure?

We have to break these three dimensions, because man is a three-dimensional being. If you go past these dimensions, then you can see. That is why the scriptures talk about being above, overcoming the sensory organs, mind and intellect. If you pass beyond them, if you overcome them, you can see God as God is. Otherwise, you’ll be perceiving God either with your intellect or with your mind, and trying to make God something which God is not. That is why the scriptures say that people have to go beyond mind and intellect, they have to transcend all the working organs and sensory organs (karmindriya and gyanindirya. Cross over them, jump over them and then experience God as God is. Otherwise the experience of God will not be pure, it will be diluted.

How does a person overcome weakness?

Any weakness which a person has basically comes from the weakness of his mind. For example, if your stomach is not functioning properly, your body will get sick. In the same way, if your mind is not concentrated, if your mind is not getting the proper spiritual food, there will be weaknesses. So, directly and indirectly, when a person meditates, the meditation itself will removes all the weaknesses that he sees through introspection. Through Knowledge, one is contented in himself. Through meditation, all the desired results are achieved.

For example, I am sitting in a car. Even though my vision, my power to see, is perfectly normal, if there is mud on the windscreen I cannot see properly. So what I do is, get out of the car, clean the windshield and then I can see properly. Likewise, right before a meditator are all his karmas on the windscreen. The karmas are simply there, clouding his vision. “Simply by shooting an arrow into the sky I can tie the sky into one bundle, but I cannot control this mind”, said Arjuna. His karmas were right there before him. That is why patience is necessary.

If you have perfect concentration, you’ll have a perfect experience. If your concentration is lacking, you’ll have a different experience. It depends on your efforts. One day your effort is there and you have complete concentration. You put all your efforts there and you can concentrate. Effort itself is karma.

Is your effort determined by previous karmas?

Yes, by previous karmas and karmas which are present now. Listening to satsang is a karma. Now, if you are encouraged spiritually, if you get satsang, if you get your doubts removed, and you sit in meditation, apply all your energy and your mind becomes concentrated, then you’ll have a good experience. But see, meditation should be for the sake of meditation alone. Good experience comes when you don’t want anything. When you go above your wants, then you can have a good experience.

Isn’t having a family, living a good life and trying to be a good person what life is all about?

Having a family, having a social life, having a job, having an education, all that adds up to a human life. But what is human life for? Ultimately the answer is that it is for achieving total satisfaction.

Take for example, the process of induction. Induction means, if we have a north pole, then automatically a south pole will be existing. If we have a south pole, then automatically we will have a north pole. That’s logic. In the same way, have a coil of wire, and if we pass electricity through that, then it becomes a transformer, it’s induced to a higher or a lower potential. In the same way, because we are south poles, we are automatically looking for a north pole. It has to be somewhere, and that north pole becomes the unknown factor, like a mysterious or mystical experience. So being in the physical world, we automatically project spirituality and recycle that, just as in a magnet the polarity, the magnetic force, oscillates from north pole to south pole and then back again. So we want to complete that cycle. That’s why we seek harmony between materialism and spirituality. Everyone wants mental peace and to be perfect in the world. You cannot say that a man is like a cog in a wheel or that man is like a robot - you cannot say that. Human beings are something more than that, because we have spirit, we have mind and that mind wants satisfaction.

Can you meditate while doing other things?

You can meditate 24 hours a day. You can actually go shopping and meditate at the same time. That’s feasible. Have you ever ridden a bicycle? Have you ever taken another person along with you? Now, you are pedaling, you are talking, you are balancing yourself, you ring the bell and look here and there. So many things are happening at the same time. But where’s your mind? It is on the road, your attention is on the road. In the same way, your organs could be doing what they are assigned to do - your eyes could be seeing, your mouth could be speaking, your ears could be listening - and at the same time, your mind could be in unison with God. Each organ has a different function, and the function of the mind is to meditate. You can think about your girlfriend, your money ,or your business, and this thinking causes problems. So the best thing is to think about God, and be in the world, but not of the world. Jesus said, “I am in the Father and the Father is in me.” The problem is, that we all know that God is within us, but we are not in God. Only through meditation do we go in God, merge in God. This is the climax of human life.

Once I get Knowledge, that’s it, isn’t it?

You plant a seed in the ground, you don’t plant a huge tree. Automatically, that small seed grows and becomes a tree. Spirituality, or the path of Knowledge, is not like a trip that you get into for maybe three or four years. It is a way of life. Once you are initiated, then actually you have to live that life and evolve spiritually and finally merge into the infinite, because merging into the infinite is salvation. It’s like a sugar cube - the cube has length, breadth and height. Now, if you put it into water, what happens? the length dissolves, the breadth dissolves and the height dissolve. In the same way, these dimensions totally dissolve in infinity.

What do you mean by ‘mind’?

Mind cannot be defined as can a worldly object. Mind is very subtle matter. It is partly physical and partly paraphysical. That’s why the mind has the capacity to go through a wall. It’s like a magnet - the magnet has a physical limit, but the force of the magnet has a wider range. The magnet is a piece of metal, but you can move a pin with it, can’t you? That means that it has a dimension, but its force extends beyond that dimension. The mind is more like the force of matter. Mind is like a negative magnetism. It is like the magnetic power of the body - the body is like the magnet and the power of the body is the mind. The magnet is solid but the magnetism is not solid; it can go through things. I could be sitting in a closed room, but the mind will go out. You have to control the mind, because it can go and roam about, but it can be used if you control it.

Let me explain further. The mind is like a gate that stops everything, like a the gates of a dam. When you open the gates, the water flows, and if the gate is closed, the water doesn’t flow. Water is the energy, but that energy is still be controlled by the gate, which is the mind. So without the mind, the energy simply flows and completely engulfs your life. But if the mind is there, the energy will be blocked. So if you actually want to have more experience, you won’t get more, you’ll get less, because of the mind.

How can one be selfless?

If you’re selfish for God, if God becomes the prime target in your life, then you will have no selfishness for the world or worldly things. How does one do that? All through meditation - meditation is the key. If you turn the key and open the lock, you have access to everything.

Is Knowledge some kind of evolved mental process?

It’s not a mental process, it is the process of concentration. Also, evolution means to be reborn, to come out. See, we are already spiritual beings, the spiritual entity is already inside us. We have to evolve in order to really taste it. It’s like having food ready, but you have to go inside the dining room in order to taste it. Then your understanding will be a balanced understanding. It is called the middle path. The will then has a spiritual inclination. Or you can call it a spiritual baptism. These are all different words, but they mean the same thing.

Can you explain about the types of karmas?

Yes, there are basically three types. There are karmas, the seeds which you are creating, there are karmas which you are suffering now and there are karmas which you will suffer. It’s like past, present and future karmas. Now, the karmas which you have done in the past you are suffering or enjoying at present, but you will, through Knowledge, be eliminating the karmas which you will suffer in the future, or even at present. You can correct your present and completely change your future. What you are cannot be changed - that you have to suffer. You have not broken, you have not neutralized your karmas, you are still under the karmic law. You are not above that. Coming here is due to karma. but through satsang, through practising the path of Knowledge, one can actually break that cycle of karma.

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Date: Sat, Sep 30, 2000 at 10:46:37 (GMT)
From: ExTex
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: It's just not fair!
Message:
Gee Bowling-gee should have his own web site too.
As the Musical Embodiment of God (or some such twaddle) He could teach us so much about Godly musical expression...and hum a snappy tune while driving his taxi-cab! ('Hey, thanks little brother. You owe me big time! I brought in the suckers with MY rockin' BIG BAND and I get diddley squat. I was Holy too!')

And wasn't BB-ji supposed to be the Intellectual Manifestation of God as well as the reincarnation of Jesus? He hasn't changed is tune one bit! (The Intellectual Manifestation of God was really heavy into LECTURING INTELLECTUALLY about the evils and pitfalls of using your intellect/mind!)

I heard him tell that one about the magnetic coil way back when....didn't make any sense then either! OOOOh He is just SOOOO SCIENTIFIC! Gag!

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Date: Sat, Sep 30, 2000 at 12:28:10 (GMT)
From: cq
Email: None
To: ExTex
Subject: It's just not fair!
Message:
I couldn't believe it.

They STILL call themselves the 'Holy Family'!

Here they all are, at the 'Birthday Celebration of Shri Bhole Ji Maharaj'

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Date: Tues, Oct 03, 2000 at 15:17:28 (GMT)
From: Janet of Venice
Email: Jai_Choix@webtv.net
To: cq
Subject: The Holy Family
Message:
wow. this just shows to go ya how far away I HAVE been from it all...I knew BBJ and Mata Ji went back to india to stubbornly return to what they knew best, but that's ALL i knew. Who's this woman in the center? Looks like the perpetually chaste BBJ got married? what year? Who are those four non-indian looking kids to the side? Isn't that strange, considering how this side of the family damnned MJ for marrying Marolyn and breeding outside the race?? Who are all these people??I was shocked to see Raja Ji in Marina Del Rey at an evening program, a few months ago. I couldnt recognize him. He's old and bald! I didn't recognize BBJ on his site, for the same reason. Ok, so we know they got shri Hans's genes for balding and MJ apparently did'nt. or he has a lifetime supply of Rogaine.I read that Mata Ji is now dead. when did she die? what of? what's the deal with these cranky looking teenagers on the stage? whose kids are they? why are they western looking? somebody please explain. and what does Bhole Ji look like now? I heard from a clandestine member of Blue Aquarius that Bhole Ji still sneaks back over to America for the music. He comes to get together and jam with his loyal band members and to go see various concerts and shows he digs.I think i get it now. I think all that happened here was a horrible failure of understanding when east meets west. If MJ was shown K at the age of 6 and made all-powerful heir at age 8, knowing nothing more than any 6to8 year old child could of adult life, then, being raised in indian belief and doctrine, he would have been woefully ignorant of everything outside what his family let him see. once getting here as a teen boy, he would have taken one good look around and said to himself 'why not? I CAN have it all' and Raja Ji saw the same. if the natives ply you with gifts and bring you whatever they have and whatever you ask for, you dont know enough to say no. imagine yourself in some utterly exotic, strange culture like..Tibet. Or deepest Africa. Persia. Micronesia. Aborginal australia. You dont know the customs. you dont know the language. you have no idea what it is to be them. they bring you food, they bring you clothes, they bring you the use of their homes, their women, all that they have. you're too ignorant to understand that these things are hospitality and tremendous sacrifice to them in their everyday lives, but they are honor bound to present it to you, because you are a guest, and they will be ill known,or ashamed, if they are anything less than generous. word travels. so you get fat, and spoiled, thinking you have no choice but to go with it.What happened with the Dutch in south Africa? the Indians in British colonial India? The Aztecs, Inca, Mayans, with the spanish Conquistadores?The Native American in the Old West? they start out greeting you as a guest, knock themselves out to get you anything you ask for, and end up exploited and enslaved, separated from their natural culture, language, habits, foods,dress, history, dignity.in a poor country it would be one thing. the offerings would be limited by their real material resources and skills. but in America? where anyone can become president? where a bill gates or a sam walton or a ross perot can happen? where your hosts have at their disposal the whole of the US economy? and all that lifetime competitive conditioning, to go as far as they can get??i think MJ and Raja ji saw what they wanted, what they could have in America, and their marriages to western girls was the last straw. the culture schism with mom and home and family just tore. and each side lunged for what they wanted the most. mom and the older brothers were disgusted and went home to India, the younger brothers stayed in America, and turned their appetites loose. If you've got it down, straight from your old man when you are age 6, that 'the breath is it', and he dies by the time you turn 8 and he leaves you carte blanche to show everyone what he showed you--then from there, you can do anything you want. You can have anything. You're a child given over complete power, and no father to curb it. Any such child would become a monster .Adult things, like ethics and respect and taxes and corporate reports and treating others as your equals would never touch your conscience. think about what we each learned from our parents, as they raised us. they said 'no'to us. they punished us. they made us say 'please' and 'thank you'. they insisted we learn to share, to tell the truth, to not hit unless there was an extremely good reason to. we learned more of it in school.And some of us learned it in jail, from John Law! Our billionaire musicians arent exempt--Paul McCartney did time in jail. Our High mucky muck politicians arent exempt-remember Watergate? Our richest investors arent exempt--remember Michael Milliken? Has Maharaji ever had to subjugate himself to any of this?? has anyone ever told _him_ 'NO!'? He's a US citizen: he doesnt have diplomatic immunity! When he took his oath of citizenship, he swore to be subject to, and to abide by, the laws of this country, whch means to be acountable for his acts-- and also accept the punishments of the laws of this country, since government acts 'in loco parentis'. I have often pondered on the Bill of Rights, where it says 'Congress shall make no law respecting Religion'. some say it means religion makes one exempt. others assert that it means All religions must be equally respected. Now i believe it means that god is no respecter of individuals, and congress is to levy the law without respect to religion, that all are to be meted out justice evenly- regardless of religion- or absence thereof. If religion were allowed to be a refuge from prosecution, then Ibn-Bin- Laden would be immune for the World Trade bombing. Manuel Noriega would have never been taken from Panama to prison in the US. David Koresh would have been off limits to Janet Reno, the FBI and the ATF. But it is not so--and that means Maharaj Ji is not 'immune from prosecution by reason of Religion'. the imaginary shield vanishes.Seeing that picture of BBJ and the wife in red and the four wiseass, western looking kids, brought it all into a shock of clarity for me, suddenly. one family's east, one's west, but other than that--there's no difference. Imagine the stunning experience it would be for Maharaji to go into prison. the treatment. the harshness. the jeers. the deprivation. the punishment the schedule. the rules.the food. the toilet and bathing provisions. the work. Imagine if the government seized all his assets and liquidated them--and after taking their share in taxes, restored a back dividend to each of us, perhaps calculated by length of years we had been exploited.Class-action suit, anybody??....
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Date: Wed, Oct 04, 2000 at 02:14:37 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Janet of Venice
Subject: Have you actually tried to READ your post?
Message:
Janet,

You may be an atheist, you may be a believer. Maybe you're simply not sure.

But, clearly, Janet, if there is a God he invented paragraphs for a good reason, dontcha think?

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Date: Tues, Oct 03, 2000 at 15:56:22 (GMT)
From: Janet of Venice
Email: None
To: Janet of Venice
Subject: The Holy Family
Message:
'What happened with the Dutch in south Africa? the Indians in British colonial India? The Aztecs, Inca, Mayans, with the spanish Conquistadores?The Native American in the Old West? they start out greeting you as a guest, knock themselves out to get you anything you ask for, and end up exploited and enslaved, separated from, and taught that their natural culture, language, habits, foods,dress, history, is all wrong, bad, inferior, a thing to forsake, and compelled to adopt the ways of the missionaries. the final thing taken is their dignity.'
musing on this, it strikes me that for once, we have had our own game turned on us. what rich karma. after all those white missionaries covered the world, corrupting and co-opting, exploiting and invalidating all those indigenous cultures--here we have had it turned back on us. what goes around comes around! what a hoot, from a cosmic scorecard! we been had! we have been fucked in the missionary position!! what you do unto others shall be done unto you...
wouldnt it be a pip, if we all found out we agreed to experience this, in this life, in our karmic contracts, in order to atone for similar things we foisted on others, in past lives?
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Date: Wed, Oct 04, 2000 at 19:12:14 (GMT)
From: cq
Email: None
To: Janet of Venice
Subject: The Holy Family
Message:
Your posts were an interesting read, Janet

Before touching on the content, can I make a small request as regards the typography? Yup, the same request as Jim made (in his own inimitable 'I won't let you forget me' style)

Paragraphs!

When you've spent too long already reading post after post, one of the biggest turn-offs is to come across a wodge of prose - like solid block, KWIM? (Know What I Mean?)

The eyes see this black wall of words, and, unless you're determined, it takes a lot of perseverance not to skim-read.

As it happened, I took the opportunity of printing your post onto paper, where the eye-strain is less severe. And you know what? That was a very interesting post of yours.

I don't know if you're still a quote 'premie' or not (and it shouldn't really matter, should it?) but your comparison of the third-world countries getting their own back on the West via the likes of the Maha made me chuckle. Of course, that angle is suspect in that it requires an Overseer of some kind to keep score. And IMO, that sort of thinking is simply an offshoot of the theist indoctrination most of us have been born into. You could take that kind of 'karmic' reasoning (ever questioned the validity of the doctrine of karma, have you? It's only more power to the priests, if you haven't) and say that everybody, every individual, every minority, every group, every religion, every nation, who has ever suffered on this Earth has suffered FOR THEIR OWN BEST INTERESTS. Decidedly dodgy doctrine, IMO (the doctrine of Karma, that is).

Anyway, just to say, thanks for posting. This place only benefits from a variety of contributors, and I'd like to read your own 'Journey', if you're thinking of getting one together.

Cheers,

Chris

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Date: Thurs, Oct 05, 2000 at 00:42:48 (GMT)
From: gerry
Email: None
To: cq
Subject: If you ask me, it DOES matter...
Message:
I don't know if you're still a quote 'premie' or not (and it shouldn't really matter, should it?

Now do you mean it shouldn't matter if YOU personally don't know or, if it shouldn't matter if he IS a premie, and what exactly do you mean by 'matter?' Not that that matters if you know what I mean.

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Date: Mon, Oct 02, 2000 at 01:42:07 (GMT)
From: bill
Email: None
To: cq
Subject: bbj's sons give darshan! bhole shit also!-nt
Message:
ghj
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Date: Mon, Oct 02, 2000 at 04:58:49 (GMT)
From: Salam
Email: None
To: bill
Subject: Do you think
Message:
if bbj adopts a child, then that that child will be entitled to his hollyness?

But shit, what adoption. you need to be born in it.

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Date: Fri, Sep 29, 2000 at 21:33:29 (GMT)
From: Elan Vital
Email: ElanVital@wearenotacult/wereallyaren't.org
To: Everyone
Subject: Ashrams: A Successful Drug Rehabilitation Program
Message:
Dear Mr. Showcase:

Your recent post came to our attention amid all the unsubstantiated, scathing and scurrilous attacks against us and Maharaji on the Internet, mostly hurled by anonymous malcontents who have nothing better to do with their lives besides hurting decent, charitable people like us, who are just helping Maharaji educate people about the peace and love inside of them. We were terribly hurt, until we started feeling grateful again, and then, in no time, we were grateful for having gratitude, and then it's just so beautiful. Plus, we have the gift of participation. Gifts are just all over the place, and that's a gift too. We are just gifted by gifts.

Regarding the ashrams, which very few people chose to be in you know, and as we state clearly on our website, the ashrams were elimintated shortly after Maharaji got out from under the influence of his mother, who was an Indian national and who was also a Hindu, and we all know what that is probably like; she was a raving, controlling, bitch with all kinds of Hindu concepts and ideas that just got in the way over here in America, and it was just so courageous for Maharaji, after having sex with Marolyn at age 16, right under his Mother's nose, practically, to stand up to her and tell her to get lost.

Maharaji was just so focused on the purpose of his life, which is to talk simply about knowledge, while simultaneously, and with great synchronization, getting a pilot's license and also writing poetry while wearing several collectible watches on both arms all while living in an utterly delapidated house up in the poorer section of Malibu.

Anyway, as we also say on our website, the purpose of the ashrams was to save many people from DRUG CULTURE. Those ashram residents should be just so grateful they they didn't die of drug overdoses, and every one of them would have, were it not for the supreme caring of Maharaji to provide 'shelter' for them. This is the reason there are not quite as many premies today as there were in 1974, because the premies who weren't in the ashram all died from DRUG CULTURE, or they are currently in mental institutions. Not everyone is willing to accept the gift after all, and that's somewhat sad, although it was their choice, and we have a policy that everyone should make up their own, jaded on confused minds.

Now, as is common knowledge, the DRUG CULTURE was entirely eliminated in 1983, so then it was safe to close those shelters and Maharaji, out of his kindness and concern, did just that, because he realized they weren't needed and because they were a big, Hindu concept, and because there was no more DRUG CULTURE. It only took about 12 years after Maharaji arrived in the West and was frightened by a naked woman on a bed, for him to realize this. It was gift, after all, both having the ashrams, and closing them. It was TWO gifts.

We have also noticed that a number of those evil and malicious 'ex-premies' who say they lived in the ashrams were the very ones who caused all the problems. They just didn't want the ashrams to close because they were having such a good time being saved from DRUG CULTURE and doing things like not having sex and having rotten teeth. You can kind of understand someone not wanting to let go of that, but, of course, some people just were not willing to accept that Maharaji was getting rid of Hindu concepts and that the ashrams were just not needed anymore, being that all the drugs were gone in 1983, and all. So, that's why these people are so upset. They want the ashrams back, and Maharaji has been unable to oblige them. He is an enigma, you know. And enigmas kind of just do whatever he wants. Even we at Elan Vital have no idea what exciting and interesting thing he will do next. We wait on pins and needles just to see what it is, and it always surprises and delights us, and it's always a gift for which we are grateful before we even get it.

So, instead of just accepting the gifts Maharaji is currently giving, these patehtic ex-premies want the old, Hindu concepts back, and they are just rigid, and unwilling to change. It's really kind of sad and we feel sorry for them, that is, when they aren't saying mean and false things about us and Maharaji. We at Elan Vital have a strict and highly ethical policy that everyone who now criticizes Maharaji is just stuck in their concepts, and are just disgruntled ashram wannabees who don't even appreciate the gift of being alive because they were saved from DRUG CULTURE. We also have a policy that these people should get lives.

We hope this clarifies things for you. If you would like to reach our PR person, Booth Dyess, or one of his numerous female assitants by whom he has fathered no children we are aware of, please contact us at ElanVital@wearenotacult/wereallyaren't.org.

Sincerely,

Elan Vital

ABSOLUTELY NOT A CULT SINCE 1971

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Date: Sat, Sep 30, 2000 at 01:33:25 (GMT)
From: bill
Email: None
To: Elan Vital
Subject: Ashrams: A Successful Drug Rehabilitation Program
Message:
Love your posts ev
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Date: Fri, Sep 29, 2000 at 23:36:12 (GMT)
From: Gordon Showcase
Email: None
To: Elan Vital
Subject: Ashrams: A Successful Drug Rehabilitation Program
Message:
Thanks for that info and may I say how nice it is to finally communicate here with somebody of substance and integrity, unlike all the dross who hang out here.

I wrote on the AG forum that it served those stupid premies right if they were saddled with debts when the ashrams closed. After all, it was Maharaji's money that they'd squandered and why shouldn't they pay for that?

I was one of the upper echelon ashram premies and I didn't have to work, nor did I need to worry about ashram debts because I had faith in my master which is something which these ex-premies have forgotten about or will sneer at.

Since leaving the ashram I've built a successful business in drug trafficing and protection rackets. Once again, these myopic ex-premies may get all moralistic about this but I know for a fact that Maharaji is very interested in doing business with me and has guaranteed me a front row seat at the next program and has even asked me down to play a round of golf with him.

After all, there will be a new generation of spaced out junkies to save from the drug culture and I will be doing my level best to ensure that this happens.

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Date: Sat, Sep 30, 2000 at 22:08:44 (GMT)
From: Elan Vital
Email: None
To: Gordon Showcase
Subject: Ashrams: A Successful Drug Rehabilitation Program
Message:
Dear Mr. Showcase:

Thank you for your recent inquiry.

Elan Vital has a policy against discrimination in several areas, the most important of which is that we do not discriminate against obscenely rich people. In this day and age, this is one group that most needs protection against discrimination. That's why we do not believe it is appropriate to comment on Maharaji's obviously successful lifestyle, although we do digress from that position to say that Maharaj is unlike anyone else, in that he has gazillions of dollars but really is not into that money and all that it buys and is not attached to it. He could just take it or leave it, really. That's part of what makes him an enigma.

In this regard, one of Maharaji's role models in Imelda Marcos. Do you think she was really attached to those 4,000 pairs of shoes she owned? Elan Vital does not believe there is anything wrong with having 4,000 pairs of shoes, and those starving citizens of the Philippines who were complaining about Imelda's obviously successful lifestyle, were just lacking in that understanding that Imelda wasn't attached to those shoes and they should have beeen following Elan Vital's policy of not judging anyone else's lifestyle. Just who do those people think they are? Maharaji's only real criticism of Imelda Marcos was that she lacked the synchronization to adequately plan for enough closet space. This is something Maharaji has not overlooked, however, in planning the remodeling of his delapidated house in one of the poorest sections of Malibu. Remember, he showed a lot of intelligence and ingenuity in taking apart toys at an early age, and actually juggled being worship as god and going to the 9th grade at the same time, with great synchronization, we might add.

Being the enigma that he is, and despite the fact that he has gotten progressively richer, while with great synchronicity he has at the same time become even less attached to those riches, we wouldn't be surprised if Maharaji just chucked his entire successful lifestyle one of these days, because, really, he couldn't care less. Yessir, any one of these days now, probably about the time hell freezes over, Maharaji might just give it all up and go to work at Pizza Hut. That's because he is an enigma and always does the unexpected.

So, Elan Vital doubts Maharaji holds any grudge against the ashram premies, who were basically sponges siphoning off Maharaji's meager resources, doing things like buying food and underwear. Although Elan Vital does not judge poor people either, we do think those complainers have a lot of nerve commenting on how Maharaji lives, when they were running around squandering his resources int that way, and for not being grateful for being saved from DRUG CULTURE. For them to complain about having to pay of debt is, well, indicative of people who are still living under a Hindu concept or something.

No, Maharaji is just too kind, and we think someone one time might have described him that way, to ever criticize those people. But do they appreciate that? Not according to what we read on the Internet! Elan Vital is not in a position to judge, and we believe in free speech, but these ingrates are real bastards, although we say that in the most nonjudgmental context.

If you would like to know anything more about what Maharaji is like, including other enigmatic things he has done like not claiming to be God, we would be happy to give you that information. You can get it by contacting Elan Vital, which is not a cult, and continues to this day to differ from a cult in a number of significant ways, at ElanVital@wearenotacult/wereallyaren't.org.

Yours in synchronization and leaderless teams of volunteers:

Elan Vital

ELAN VITAL: ABSOLUTELY NOT A CULT SINCE 1971

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Date: Sat, Sep 30, 2000 at 04:14:47 (GMT)
From: Tonette
Email: None
To: Gordon Showcase
Subject: Stop it already, that is too much
Message:
Your gonna pay for my hernia operation. Laughing like a fool. Which I probably am because I once believed M was true.
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Date: Fri, Sep 29, 2000 at 20:28:39 (GMT)
From: Buzz
Email: None
To: Yves
Subject: Bbj
Message:
Hi Yves,
You mentioned in a post earlier you wanted to invite Bbj here to question him.I hope to do better than that and meet him face to face to question him,he is due to come to the ashram here any week now and I am looking forward to trying to get some proper answers.
Buzz
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Date: Mon, Oct 02, 2000 at 03:40:12 (GMT)
From: la-ex
Email: None
To: Buzz
Subject: Bbj/HERE'S A GOOD QUESTION FOR BBJ!
Message:
BUZZ-Why don't we just be honest and ask bbj this?
we both have a common interest-we can't stand m...
we both have a common goal-to expose him for the fraud that he is...

How can he help us and how can we help him in our common pursuit?
any family anecdotes that m wouldn't like to be known?
any things that bbj would like to express about his little brother?
what went on during the court trial?
how is m regarded in india now?
stories about m's role in the holy family...

anything from their days together growing up would be real helpful...

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Date: Mon, Oct 02, 2000 at 05:03:38 (GMT)
From: Salam
Email: None
To: la-ex
Subject: Bbj/HERE'S A GOOD QUESTION FOR BBJ!
Message:
Maybe that brings us back to the non-discloser agreement that they have.
How about something like: can you tell us what was written in Shri Hans's will, regarding how his assets will be distributed after his death. And was Mataji the legal guardian of it until gm reached the age.
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Date: Sat, Sep 30, 2000 at 12:19:42 (GMT)
From: cq
Email: None
To: Buzz
Subject: Bbj
Message:
You could also ask him how it felt to be a premie - he was one too, y'know.

(My guess, for what it's worth, is that he knew it was a con from the start, but business is business.)

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Date: Sat, Sep 30, 2000 at 03:50:15 (GMT)
From: la-ex
Email: None
To: Buzz
Subject: Bbj-let's come up with some good questions...
Message:
Buzz-please ask bbji what he thinks about his little brother.
Also,what really went on when he assumed control of the mission,'after hearing a voice' that told him to do it...
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Date: Sat, Sep 30, 2000 at 08:07:39 (GMT)
From: AJW
Email: None
To: Buzz
Subject: Bbj-let's come up with some good questions...
Message:
Hi Buzz,

Like la-ex, I'd love to know what went on between Shri M dying and little M being crowned.

anth the historian

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Date: Sat, Sep 30, 2000 at 12:43:41 (GMT)
From: Salam
Email: None
To: AJW
Subject: Also
Message:
Ask jim if gm is trying to make Amoroo look like Prem Nagar.
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Date: Sat, Sep 30, 2000 at 01:32:15 (GMT)
From: bill
Email: None
To: Buzz
Subject: Bbj
Message:
ask his people about satsangs of the holiest mother of creation.
Maybe they have a booklet of her blabber.
Surely they have some kind of memorial book extolling her virtues.
Bet there is no mention of our lord of the universe.
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Date: Sat, Sep 30, 2000 at 15:08:57 (GMT)
From: Buzz
Email: None
To: bill
Subject: Bbj
Message:
Hi Bill.
In the magazine(monthly)there are discourses by Mataji taken from the early divine light mags etc.Also most of the books by Bbj are just the compilations of that time also.
Don't worry if I get the chance I will ask him all about the whole charade!
Buzz
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Date: Sun, Oct 01, 2000 at 07:14:33 (GMT)
From: ExTex
Email: None
To: Buzz
Subject: This could be facinating! (nt)
Message:
nt
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Date: Tues, Oct 03, 2000 at 15:33:07 (GMT)
From: Janet of Venice
Email: None
To: all
Subject: This could be fascinating!
Message:
where is he supposed to be coming to? for how long? who's hosting him? who's paying for it? why is he coming? is he looking for defectors from his brother's side? does he hope to lure us all into his fold??
who is going to be present in person for this? can you arrange a live chat or Q and A with him for us?, or on here on the net? will he travel? or only stay at one locus, while he's here?
do we have an agenda? what is his? could we interest him in our cry for justice and exposé of his brother's oh-so-carefully concealed real life?
consider these my submission list for the interview. answer what you can, here. report on the rest, afterwards, while its happenning, or when you feel you have enough that you can.

thanks
Janet

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Date: Tues, Oct 03, 2000 at 15:42:34 (GMT)
From: Janet of Venice
Email: None
To: Buzz
Subject: This could be fascinating!
Message:
copy from elsewhere on board, relevant here.
cq wrote:
I couldn't believe it.
They STILL call themselves the 'Holy Family'!
Here they all are, at the 'Birthday Celebration of Shri Bhole Ji Maharaj'
Janet of Venice responded:
wow. this just shows to go ya how far away I HAVE been from it all...I knew BBJ and Mata Ji went back to india to stubbornly return to what they knew best, but that's ALL i knew. Who's this woman in the center? Looks like the perpetually chaste BBJ got married? what year? Who are those four non-indian looking kids to the side? Isn't that strange, considering how this side of the family damnned MJ for marrying Marolyn and breeding outside the race?? Who are all these people??I was shocked to see Raja Ji in Marina Del Rey at an evening program, a few months ago. I couldnt recognize him. He's old and bald! I didn't recognize BBJ on his site, for the same reason. Ok, so we know they got shri Hans's genes for balding and MJ apparently did'nt. or he has a lifetime supply of Rogaine.I read that Mata Ji is now dead. when did she die? what of? what's the deal with these cranky looking teenagers on the stage? whose kids are they? why are they western looking? somebody please explain. and what does Bhole Ji look like now? I heard from a clandestine member of Blue Aquarius that Bhole Ji still sneaks back over to America for the music. He comes to get together and jam with his loyal band members and to go see various concerts and shows he digs.I think i get it now. I think all that happened here was a horrible failure of understanding when east meets west. If MJ was shown K at the age of 6 and made all-powerful heir at age 8, knowing nothing more than any 6to8 year old child could of adult life, then, being raised in indian belief and doctrine, he would have been woefully ignorant of everything outside what his family let him see. once getting here as a teen boy, he would have taken one good look around and said to himself 'why not? I CAN have it all' and Raja Ji saw the same. if the natives ply you with gifts and bring you whatever they have and whatever you ask for, you dont know enough to say no. imagine yourself in some utterly exotic, strange culture like..Tibet. Or deepest Africa. Persia. Micronesia. Aborginal australia. You dont know the customs. you dont know the language. you have no idea what it is to be them. they bring you food, they bring you clothes, they bring you the use of their homes, their women, all that they have. you're too ignorant to understand that these things are hospitality and tremendous sacrifice to them in their everyday lives, but they are honor bound to present it to you, because you are a guest, and they will be ill known,or ashamed, if they are anything less than generous. word travels. so you get fat, and spoiled, thinking you have no choice but to go with it.What happened with the Dutch in south Africa? the Indians in British colonial India? The Aztecs, Inca, Mayans, with the spanish Conquistadores?The Native American in the Old West? they start out greeting you as a guest, knock themselves out to get you anything you ask for, and end up exploited and enslaved, separated from their natural culture, language, habits, foods,dress, history, dignity.in a poor country it would be one thing. the offerings would be limited by their real material resources and skills. but in America? where anyone can become president? where a bill gates or a sam walton or a ross perot can happen? where your hosts have at their disposal the whole of the US economy? and all that lifetime competitive conditioning, to go as far as they can get??i think MJ and Raja ji saw what they wanted, what they could have in America, and their marriages to western girls was the last straw. the culture schism with mom and home and family just tore. and each side lunged for what they wanted the most. mom and the older brothers were disgusted and went home to India, the younger brothers stayed in America, and turned their appetites loose. If you've got it down, straight from your old man when you are age 6, that 'the breath is it', and he dies by the time you turn 8 and he leaves you carte blanche to show everyone what he showed you--then from there, you can do anything you want. You can have anything. You're a child given over complete power, and no father to curb it. Any such child would become a monster .Adult things, like ethics and respect and taxes and corporate reports and treating others as your equals would never touch your conscience. think about what we each learned from our parents, as they raised us. they said 'no'to us. they punished us. they made us say 'please' and 'thank you'. they insisted we learn to share, to tell the truth, to not hit unless there was an extremely good reason to. we learned more of it in school.And some of us learned it in jail, from John Law! Our billionaire musicians arent exempt--Paul McCartney did time in jail. Our High mucky muck politicians arent exempt-remember Watergate? Our richest investors arent exempt--remember Michael Milliken? Has Maharaji ever had to subjugate himself to any of this?? has anyone ever told _him_ 'NO!'? He's a US citizen: he doesnt have diplomatic immunity! When he took his oath of citizenship, he swore to be subject to, and to abide by, the laws of this country, whch means to be acountable for his acts-- and also accept the punishments of the laws of this country, since government acts 'in loco parentis'. I have often pondered on the Bill of Rights, where it says 'Congress shall make no law respecting Religion'. some say it means religion makes one exempt. others assert that it means All religions must be equally respected. Now i believe it means that god is no respecter of individuals, and congress is to levy the law without respect to religion, that all are to be meted out justice evenly- regardless of religion- or absence thereof. If religion were allowed to be a refuge from prosecution, then Osama-Bin- Laden would be immune for the World Trade bombing. Manuel Noriega would have never been taken from Panama to prison in the US. David Koresh would have been off limits to Janet Reno, the FBI and the ATF. But it is not so--and that means Maharaj Ji is not 'immune from prosecution by reason of Religion'. the imaginary shield vanishes.Seeing that picture of BBJ and the wife in red and the four wiseass, western looking kids, brought it all into a shock of clarity for me, suddenly. one family's east, one's west, but other than that--there's no difference. Imagine the stunning experience it would be for Maharaji to go into prison. the treatment. the harshness. the jeers. the deprivation. the punishment the schedule. the rules.the food. the toilet and bathing provisions. the work. Imagine if the government seized all his assets and liquidated them--and after taking their share in taxes, restored a back dividend to each of us, perhaps calculated by length of years we had been exploited.Class-action suit, anybody??....
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Date: Fri, Sep 29, 2000 at 18:35:55 (GMT)
From: Yves
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: Scary links to cult-related sites
Message:
Soundtrack from a 60 minutes report on a sect named Scientology and one of its subsidiaries: Network awareness network.
http://www.rickross.com/sounds/60Minutes.ram

Some data base on sects cults and your favorite pilot
http://www.rickross.com/

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Date: Fri, Sep 29, 2000 at 19:13:26 (GMT)
From: Yves
Email: None
To: Yves
Subject: Scary links to cult-related sites
Message:
A short clip about new religions
http://www.rickross.com/graphics/mtv.mov

An interview with cult specialist
http://www.rickross.com/graphics/japan.mov

A clip where the rat says he never said he was god. He doesn't even know where that came from. Ghee. It must be that darn mind again.
http://www.elanvital.org/faq_opposing_views.htm

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Date: Fri, Sep 29, 2000 at 17:48:52 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: Difference between a Premie and a teletubby?
Message:
From ELK:

Freedom

The old man was walking
In the hot African sun
He was happy.

He saw the angel
Come over the hill
The angel was smiling.

They walked to each other
And embraced
Their breath was mingling.

The old man lay down
On the warm African soil
He was smiling.

The breath drifted away
And merged into the sky
The sun smiled on.

The people from the village
found the body
And saw it was smiling.

They took the body
and buried it in the African soil
Then they danced for joy.

John McHardy
Brunswick Heads, Australia

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Date: Tues, Oct 03, 2000 at 02:30:11 (GMT)
From: Tonette
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: What is the difference ..
Message:
What is the difference between Maharaji and a bucket of shit???

The Bucket!

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Date: Sat, Sep 30, 2000 at 00:14:20 (GMT)
From: Rob
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: You found THAT on ELK???
Message:
Not a very nice story coming from a synchronised devotee.

So some poor old senior citizen, is wandering lost out in the African bush. Dehydration has caused his facial muscles into seizure, hideously resembling a moribund grin.....

Finally the wretched man falls to the ground and dies. Then along come the local villagers, too late, bury him and dance on his grave.

Weird.

Those guys are really losing it.......

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Date: Sat, Sep 30, 2000 at 01:33:54 (GMT)
From: Roger eDrek
Email: drek@oz.net
To: Rob
Subject: One explanation - victims of the drug culture
Message:
It is TRUE that Maharji saved thousands, if not millions, of young people lost in the drug culture that existed from the late 60's until 1983.

Unfortunately, while these people were saved from the fate of dying from drug overdoes, the toll the dope had on their brains was too, too much and now they talk like this.

If only they had continued with real dope instead the dope known as Maharaji.

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Date: Sat, Sep 30, 2000 at 04:29:35 (GMT)
From: Tonette
Email: None
To: Roger eDrek
Subject: HARdeharharhar! Good one Roger nt
Message:
nt
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Date: Fri, Sep 29, 2000 at 19:17:52 (GMT)
From: Yves
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: I don't know. What is it?
Message:
Maybe this.

Teletubbies are allowed to be queer while premies are weird.

There is one but we haven't found it yet.

With four of them, Teletubbies outnumber premies.

What is it?

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Date: Fri, Sep 29, 2000 at 23:03:04 (GMT)
From: shp
Email: None
To: Yves
Subject: I don't know. What is it?
Message:
Teletubbies have obvious visible weird shit coming out of their heads and premies have invisible weird shit coming out of thiers...same is true for ex-premies. So we have something else in common. Un otro Corona con limon, por favor!
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Date: Sat, Sep 30, 2000 at 00:38:04 (GMT)
From: Bin Liner
Email: None
To: shp
Subject: I don't know. What is it?
Message:

Never mind the 'wierd shit' in or out of heads. What about the real vile smelling stuff here on Terra Firma that needs addressing.

I don't know whether to be angrier with myself, or with shitler for having believed him.

I presume you must have looked around in this site.

How much 'hearsay' evidence does it take for the straw to break the camel's back.

I must admit that I was one of those who thought 15 years ago ; 'phew' thank god all that's over,now I can get on with being a realised soul like I thought it was all about in the beginning.

I never did make that,& am blaming no-one for it, because if that is my goal in life then that is my responsibility.


Shitler, however, told me that it takes two to Tango on this path & I believed him.

I knew very little about him over 28 years,but now that I do, I believe I've been Tangoing with an ARSEHOLE.


Never mind the experience, what about the truth.

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Date: Fri, Sep 29, 2000 at 14:06:16 (GMT)
From: Yves
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: What will Fatrat do with plane when he retires
Message:
He loves expensive toys. He loves to show-off with airplane. Rational is it is a tool for propagation. Now this period closes to an end. What will he do with airplane then. Take it for a ride around the world once a month? Rent it? Sell it? We're talking 25 millions here, let alone operating costs and he's not about to go to work as a private pilot.

I think he's squeezed. He has no reason for living beside playing god a few times a year and getting fed-up with it. He's got some soul-dearching to do and must be depressive these days.

Has anyone heard about Micheal J Fox lately?

I should drop him a line at
dettmers@gylanix.com

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Date: Sat, Sep 30, 2000 at 04:45:30 (GMT)
From: Tonette
Email: None
To: Yves
Subject: Maybe Rawat will fly into a mountain nt
Message:
nt
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Date: Sat, Sep 30, 2000 at 21:11:31 (GMT)
From: Patsy Cline
Email: None
To: Tonette
Subject: Flying into a mountain is a real blast (nt)
Message:
nt
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Date: Fri, Sep 29, 2000 at 10:54:47 (GMT)
From: Steve
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: Charisma
Message:
Maha is what I would describe as a charismatic leader of a personality worshipping cult, rather than a true spiritual teacher. Most premies I know and hear about do not generally have much of a true holistic learning obout life. Many do not practice regularly. They go and see the 'great man' perhaps once a year if possible, and from that they gain some kind of inspiration to give 'it' a bit more effort. They manage to attain a boost or I prefer the term 'a fix'. They are addicted to the vision of bliss and do seem to elevate themselves at 'event' time. A little of that old feeling seeps in and reminds them of a possibility they'd let slip.

I think Maha knows very well that the techniques do not work in the way that his hype suggests they should. That constant state of joy eludes most premies as indeed it is an impossibility for anyone to be happy and blissful always. It is not a natural desire to even sit for an hour in this busy life and try and get beyond thought. Hence the need for constant reminders and occassional knowledge reviews.

It all seems to be about looking at him , an illusion of joy and happiness manifested before them in physical form. Endless him. Videos and more videos of that Mao like face and listening to the platitudes and shallow encouragement he offers.

Here's something I found in Jack Kornfields book , 'After the ecstasy, the Laundry ' :

Another source of spiritual misunderstanding is the confusion of charisma with true wisdom. Certain spiritual leaders possess the ability to evoke extraordinary states. Amplified by our hopes, feelings of bliss and transcendance arise easily around these charismatic ministers, priests, Zen masters, mystics, rabbis and gurus.

It is easy to mistake such spiritual powers as definite signs of widom or enlightenment or divine love. We forget that power and charisma are just power and charisma. That these energies can just as easily serve demigogues, politicians and entertainers.

It is very possible for someone to be charimatic yet without wisdom. Conversely wisdom is not necessarily flashy or powerful-
it can manifest itself in a simple and humble heart, and in the most ordinary seeming lives.

In groups where special spiritual powers are highly valued, students should take special care. When secret teachings or special lineages are evoked, when one group is chosen to be saved or awakened above all others in the world, spiritual communities are ripe to become CULTS. This is a particular risk within the blinding arena of CHARISMA.

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Date: Sat, Sep 30, 2000 at 21:23:54 (GMT)
From: Joe
Email: None
To: Steve
Subject: Charisma
Message:
I have a hard time using the word charisma in connection with Maharaji. I never saw him as charismatic, which I sort of equate with attraction or magnatism. I never felt that way about Maharaji. Rather, I believed he was the Perfect Master, and, therefore, he must be charismatic. It's a kind of chicken and egg thing.

I think the vast majority of premies became premies, not because they found Maharaji charismatic or that they were attracted to him or what he said, but because the liked the premies, and wanted whatever it was they said they had. Once you go through the aspriant process, there is a good chance you are going to start being devoted to Maharaji, whether you find him charismatic or not, just because you are told over and over that is what you are supposed to do, and because you want to fit into the group.

The other thing about charisma is that I think the amount of 'charisma' is inversely related to how much you know about the supposed 'charismatic' person. Most premies have never even met Maharaji, know nothing about him as a person and hence can pin their fantasies and wishful thinking on to him, which might make him, and anyone, really, charismatic to them.

Nowadays, I think Maharaji looks like crap, has a squeaky, annoying voice, says nothing of substance, is repetitive, doesn't speak very well, and is arrogant about his wealth and position. None of that is the least bit attractive if you don't already believe he is somebody special.

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Date: Wed, Oct 04, 2000 at 02:37:15 (GMT)
From: Scott T.
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: Charisma
Message:
Joe:

True that Maharaji does not correspond to the classic Weberian definition of charisma. Rather, he has a sort of institutional or traditional appeal, even though he only makes vague reference to the traditions from which his legitimacy derives. He's a charismatic leader only to the extent that he managed to raise himself beyond *our* traditions, expectations and constraints. But this was due to a rather canny trick, rather than to any personal charismatic appeal.

The other thing about charisma is that I think the amount of 'charisma' is inversely related to how much you know about the supposed 'charismatic' person. Most premies have never even met Maharaji, know nothing about him as a person and hence can pin their fantasies and wishful thinking on to him, which might make him, and anyone, really, charismatic to them.

One issue this raises for me is that I'm not sure just how much we deserve to know about the private lives of our leaders. Spiritual leaders get a lot less consideration in that regard, of course, since they are far more likely to invade *our* privacy and independence. I guess to the extent that ingorance helps to preserve a mystique it serves charisma, especially for someone like Maha who really is not very charismatic on his own. But most people are perfectly willing to simply overlook what they know about someone whose 'spell' they are under. It's a little like being in love. I've done it myself, so I'm pretty sure it's true.

The one thing that *will* break the spell is if I get a good look into the heart at some point when I'm open to the insight. Mishler is a good example of that. Unfortunately very few of us will ever get that close a look, so we have to use our brains to make inferences based on credible information. I hope we're helping in that process for some people, but strictly speaking we've already had the insight.

--Scott

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Date: Sat, Sep 30, 2000 at 06:54:34 (GMT)
From: Scott T.
Email: None
To: Steve
Subject: Charisma
Message:
Steve:

Another source of spiritual misunderstanding is the confusion of charisma with true wisdom. Certain spiritual leaders possess the ability to evoke extraordinary states. Amplified by our hopes, feelings of bliss and transcendance arise easily around these charismatic ministers, priests, Zen masters, mystics, rabbis and gurus.

It is easy to mistake such spiritual powers as definite signs of widom or enlightenment or divine love. We forget that power and charisma are just power and charisma.

Sorry to say, but this is not a very useful distinction, or at least not as useful as it appears to be. Charisma is a genuine faculty, and even an 'essential' faculty. (Why that's the case is another story.) It's erroneous to suppose that charisma is linked to wisdom, or goodness, of course. But that doesn't solve much for us. You can't have a true spiritual leader who lacks charisma, and since following a charismatic leader demands that we dispense with skepticism then at some point it becomes essential to be able to recognize true wisdom or goodness *before* surrendering to charisma. (I'm not certain this is possible, I merely hope that it is.)

The one characteristic that I find common to all leaders with 'good charisma' is that they don't attempt to bar the door to exit. A spiritual leader will also avoid the obvious, like adultery, seduction of children, cruelty, theft, gluttony, insobriety, etc.

But there are genuine charismatic leaders in the political and social realm who have bad traits: George Washington and Thomas Jefferson, for instance. So, what appears to be common is that they don't 'need' their 'followers' in order to be whole men (or women). Something like that anyway. It's not a simple formula. But since Maharaji is not on the cusp, he doesn't present any serious problem about which side of the line he's on -- good or bad. And the funny thing is, once you recognize that, he's not even charismatic.

--Scott

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Date: Sat, Sep 30, 2000 at 10:18:40 (GMT)
From: Steve
Email: None
To: Scott T.
Subject: Charisma
Message:
Hi Scott,

Yes indeed . It's rather difficult to imagine a spiritual leader who doesn't have any 'charisma '. I think that he would be a studentless teacher if he lacked that attribute.

I think that the point is not that a teacher should lack charisma but that he doesn't rely on that alone and actually offers something of more substance than Maha and others.

Maha's cult relies almost entirely on his appeal to premies. I find that as someone who is still devoted to finding an inner balance that there is so little 'meat' to his method. For example the Buddhist teachings in all their various forms seem to deal with intellectual concerns too. They delve deeply into psychology and the nature of mind. They are nowadays very involved in ecological issues like saving the forests etc. They generally don't shy away from any aspect of human existence.

Certainly Maha has lost most of his charisma from my perspective but to the remaining herd he is still the bee's knees ( strange term?).

Steve

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Date: Sat, Sep 30, 2000 at 11:38:54 (GMT)
From: Scott T.
Email: None
To: Steve
Subject: Charisma
Message:
Steve:

I find that as someone who is still devoted to finding an inner balance that there is so little 'meat' to his method. For example the Buddhist teachings in all their various forms seem to deal with intellectual concerns too. They delve deeply into psychology and the nature of mind. They are nowadays very involved in ecological issues like saving the forests etc. They generally don't shy away from any aspect of human existence.

Well, it's certainly true that the EV seems a little thin, but the larger Sant Mat religion rests pretty firmly on the Indian 'Sants' including Kabir. I think you'd get an argument from many of those in Rhadasaomi that the religion as a whole doesn't have something to say about human existence. What makes EV so disingenuous is the disingenuousness of the leader, pure and simple. Buddhist religious leaders don't seem to be prone to the same sort of moral degeneration, probably because they have so much more constraining tradition. Neither Christianity nor Islam have the same priestly traditions, but most Christians and Muslims would regard that as a strength. Anyway, it is peculiar that Buddhism is somewhat unique. I'll think about it.

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Date: Sun, Oct 01, 2000 at 00:29:16 (GMT)
From: Gregg
Email: None
To: Scott T.
Subject: Thanks, Scott, Steve and Joe...
Message:
... for the authentic discourse which takes place on this site, but is often overshadowed by the shouting.

I really found your post helpful, Joe, concerning how the superdivinity of the guru and one's closeness to the guru are inversely related. And, even more germane, how one's love for GMJ is really tied to one's relationship to other group members. That is, in essence, how a cult coheres.

Some of us opened up to spirituality, in part, in DLM. And some of us are, now, further enlightened by the cult's shortfalls.

I wish us all growth and happiness!

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Date: Fri, Sep 29, 2000 at 23:30:45 (GMT)
From: Bin Liner
Email: None
To: Steve
Subject: Charisma
Message:

A very thought provoking message.

Have you got any ideas about how such people can be knocked off their perches, before they fade out with the loot like the Chesire Cat,& leaving behind just the GRIN.

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Date: Sat, Sep 30, 2000 at 10:22:28 (GMT)
From: Steve
Email: None
To: Bin Liner
Subject: It's crumbling - he's falling!
Message:
Hi there B L,

He's falling off it for sure. I think this EPO website is assisting in that. I've also found that dicussions I have with premies lately have revealed that they are no longer very certain of the true authenticity of their path.

Steve

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Date: Fri, Sep 29, 2000 at 17:10:56 (GMT)
From: Loaf
Email: None
To: Steve
Subject: Great POST !! (NT)
Message:
Shoo
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Date: Fri, Sep 29, 2000 at 14:47:31 (GMT)
From: Gregg
Email: None
To: Steve
Subject: Charisma
Message:
Very well put. True spirituality (and I feel like a dork writing that way overused phrase) has little to do with what GMJ calls 'Knowledge.' The path of the premie is simply guru worship without context or understanding or meaning. The 'techniques' are practiced without context, too. The gift of human life begs to be explored and understood and enjoyed, but premie life is more about chasing emotional bliss than anything else. That is not a path of understanding.

The only quibble I have with your post is the bit about 'secret teachings and special lineages.' That could describe much of Tibetan Buddhism, and some other traditions as well. The thing is, is that that secret/special thing does not necessarily involve feelings of superiority or exclusivity. It does sometimes, as with the Mormons, for example; but I don't think the Tibetan Buddhists feel they have a corner on the spirituality racket.

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Date: Fri, Sep 29, 2000 at 20:20:55 (GMT)
From: Steve
Email: None
To: Gregg
Subject: Thanks Gregg
Message:
The part about secret teachings and lineages is actually incomplete. I missed out the last paragraph which says ' This does not always happen of course. Wise traditions include safeguards against such misuse, often by the creation of a network of elders, respected teachers able to watch over one another's spiritual condition and behaviour.'

Highly recommended for a more complete and humanistic view of true spiritual evolution is the book that these quotes come from:

'After the Ecstasy, the Laundry' Jack Kornfield - a clinical psychologist and Buddhist teacher and writer.

Kind regards
Steve.

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Date: Fri, Sep 29, 2000 at 15:08:02 (GMT)
From: Way
Email: None
To: Gregg
Subject: So right-on, guys! (nt)
Message:
nt
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Date: Sun, Oct 01, 2000 at 06:28:29 (GMT)
From: Disculta
Email: None
To: Way and all
Subject: Absolutely spot-on thread, chaps!
Message:
Lovely posts,old chaps.

That Kornfield book is excellent and should be recommended on some part of this website for premies exiting. It's much less all-or-nothing than some other cult books.

I've been thinking about MJ's charisma or lack thereof. Haven't seen him for years, but I have to say that the way I really got involved was when I saw him at London airport in 1971. Something distinctly 'charismatic' happened, even though I didn't believe in him and was along for the ride.

Perhaps it was the innocent flush of youth, though, because he certainly went downhill and became obnoxious, boring and pretty embarassing.

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Date: Fri, Sep 29, 2000 at 08:12:38 (GMT)
From: Tonette
Email: netguest42@yahoo.com
To: Everyone
Subject: Ashram Debt
Message:
I was never in the ashram. In fact, I tended to avoid ashram premies like the plaque. But I am very curious about how the ashrams were closed. Would any of you old(no pun intended) ashram premies elaborate on:
How much debt was present when all was said and done. Did M help to off set any of the monies?
How was the debt divided among the participants? Equally? Did former ashram members, ie those not in the ashram at the closing, help with the debt?
How did you guys pay it? Did you have any credit history or credit cards? Did you take loans? Could you refuse to pay?
How much notice was given before the actual closing? How did you guys get out of your leases?
How was property divided? Furniture, Cars ect.

I don't remember what program I was attending in 1983 or 1984 but I remember a former ashram premie asking M during a question and answer session why he closed the ashram. His sensitive reply? 'It was an experiment that didn't work' I was absolutely appalled! That was his answer. To someone who gave years of her life in devotion and dedication. Is it just me, or do others also find that evil?
Anyway I have this curiosity about some of the specifics on this matter and although it was 1983 I would still like to know.
Thanks Tonette

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Date: Sun, Oct 01, 2000 at 08:28:58 (GMT)
From: Jean-Michel
Email: None
To: Tonette
Subject: All of His other experiments failed, BTW!
Message:
Tell me about only one that succeeded beside him becoming a jet flying millionnaire?
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Date: Sat, Sep 30, 2000 at 19:44:05 (GMT)
From: G
Email: None
To: Tonette
Subject: debt and closing
Message:
How much debt was present when all was said and done? Several thousands of dollars in my area
Did M help to off set any of the monies? No
How was the debt divided among the participants? Unequally
Did former ashram members ... help with the debt? No
How did you guys pay it? A little at a time
Did you have any credit history or credit cards? Already max'd out, damaged credit history
Did you take loans? Wouldn't have helped
Could you refuse to pay? No, some was in my name
How much notice was given before the actual closing? Maybe a couple of months or so.
How was property divided? Unequally, and the assets didn't go to those left with the debt.

I remember a former ashram premie asking rawat 'What was that about?' and rawat replied something like 'Mistakes were made.' Very Regeanesque.

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Date: Sat, Sep 30, 2000 at 21:03:12 (GMT)
From: Joe
Email: None
To: G
Subject: To G....
Message:
Thanks for you responses on this. I am wondering. Could you just give a narrative explanation of what happened in the closing of your ashram? Specifically, can you tell us, how you were first told the ashram was closing and what the explanation was? Who coordinated the closing of the ashram -- dividing up the debt, etc. Did you get anything directly from Maharaji, like a letter, a video, or was there ever an ashram meeting in which Maharaji disclosed this?

After it was announced that the ashram was closing, how did that proceed? Was there a deadline by which the ashram was supposed to be closed? I think the details are important about this, and I for one, and very interested, as you know. This is a very important subject and certainly an area in which Maharaji is the most vulnerable to direct criticism.

When you say that the debt was divided unequally, on what basis, if any was the debt divided? Did you get stuck with a lot of debt because it was in your name? [This was something that I was always afraid of myself, because I was always putting a lot of ashram debt on my personal credit cards and if push came to shove I would be legally responsible for it, no matter how many people in the ashram, and certainly Maharaji, benefited from that debt. Fortunately, I left before the final closing and left broke, but not in debt.]

I can't imagine the ashrams had much in the way of assets. Most of the ashrams were rentals, and maybe there was some furniture and a few decrepit cars, but I can't imagine there was much else.

Basically, any details would be extremely helpful. Thanks.

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Date: Sun, Oct 01, 2000 at 18:52:19 (GMT)
From: G
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: To G....
Message:
...what happened in the closing of your ashram? Specifically, can you tell us, how you were first told the ashram was closing and what the explanation was?

Where I lived, first there was a loosening of the ashram rules. Premies established their own bank accounts, and - Oh my God! - men and women actually lived in the same house. If premies wanted to leave the ashram, that was suddenly considered ok, in fact, it was now encouraged, whereas before you would go to the equivalent of Hell. There was some spin put on the whole thing, but I don't remember the details, it was all bewildering.

There was also an ashram 'purge' during which a large number of ashram premies were now pressured - not just encouraged - to move out, and individual ashrams were closed. 'Purge' was actually a word that was used. The supposed idea was that the ashram was being 'cleaned up', purged of ashram premies deemed inferior, leaving only the so-called elite. I was kicked out of one ashram, I went to live at another, then that one was told to close. I think there was a deadline given.

I don't remember being told during this period that 'the ashram' as an institution was going to be shut down completely.

One thing I was told - by an 'ordinary' ashram premie - was that 'Maharaji' wanted us to be 'more normal'. That was about it. There was no mention of the reasons that Dettmers wrote about. It seems like a 'blame (and insult) the victim' strategy was taken. The 'more normal' wording implied that ashram premies were abnormal. Ok, we were, but why? It wasn't my idea to move into an ashram.

Rawat said later that it was 'an experiment that didn't work' and 'mistakes were made'. Saying that it was 'an experiment' suggests that he didn't know what the outcome would be, which doesn't fit with his coy (and not so coy) implications of being all-knowing, nor with his claims of being 'the Master'. Who set up the failed experiment? He did. He told people to move in. He wrote the ashram manual. He was the head of the whole thing. What 'didn't work' meant was never described, nor was 'mistakes were made'. Maybe one thing he meant was that the ashrams weren't giving him enough money. There did seem to be a trend towards giving less money to DLM and Rawat, maybe that pissed him off.

The whole affair was very confusing and painful. First I was pressured into the ashram, then kicked out. Why do I say I was pressured to move in? Because Rawat said that he wanted all single premies to move in the ashram, and whatever he wanted was perceived as pressure. He was making it out like, if you want to 'realize Knowledge', you move in the ashram. I perceived him as the authority figure, the expert, so I moved in. There's a book called 'You're Smarter Than They Make You Feel' that describes how 'experts' intimidate us. I think I'll post about it.

I had very mixed feelings about the closing, I was both relieved and deeply hurt.

When I heard that the 'elite' ashram was closed, instead of blaming Rawat, I thought, 'It serves them right.' Rawat is very slick at casting the blame on others.

Who coordinated the closing of the ashram -- dividing up the debt, etc.

It didn't seem coordinated. Where I was, the debt just ended up being paid by the persons who officially owed the debt.

Did you get anything directly from Maharaji, like a letter, a video, or was there ever an ashram meeting in which Maharaji disclosed this?

I don't remember any letter or video or meeting like that, nor do I remember being told that it was 'Maharaji' himself who explicitly ordered the ashram closed. There was no statement made like 'forget about those vows', no explicit release from the vows, just that he wanted us to be 'more normal'. It was more implied than actually stated, whereas before the vows were explicit. That was confusing for people used to being told what to do. I think the closing was made out to be, well, 'Maharaji' wants us to be 'more normal', so we should close the ashrams, it's us premies that are closing the ashrams, not him. It seemed like it was made out to be our fault that the ashram didn't 'work', that we were - in response to his gentle guidance - admitting our failure. Rawat likes to pretend at times that he's so laissez-faire, that way, he doesn't have to take the blame.

When I was in the ashram, there was a lot of talk about having the ashram 'ready' for a visit by him. Premies would dream about him visiting their ashram. It never happened, even when he was in town. I think it served him well for the premies to keep dreaming. He acted like we were not worthy of him.

I can't imagine the ashrams had much in the way of assets. Most of the ashrams were rentals, and maybe there was some furniture and a few decrepit cars, but I can't imagine there was much else.

That was about it, not all the cars were decrepit, but I think they were all used economy cars. Still, for an ashram premie, that seemed like a lot.


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Date: Tues, Oct 03, 2000 at 02:08:21 (GMT)
From: Tonette
Email: None
To: G
Subject: Thank you so very much! One more thing...........
Message:
What city were you living in at the time?
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Date: Tues, Oct 03, 2000 at 02:05:40 (GMT)
From: Tonette
Email: None
To: Best of forum
Subject: This should be readily available, as in best of
Message:
Okay who's in charge? This response should be forward and center
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Date: Mon, Oct 02, 2000 at 11:45:20 (GMT)
From: ham
Email: None
To: G
Subject: To G....
Message:
Rawat likes to pretend at times that he's so laissez-faire, that way, he doesn't have to take the blame.

Think this was the biggest spin trick of all, and the perfect counterbalance to lila, enabled him to cover all spectrums.

Certainly there were also quite a few single premeies committed to k and m who could always find quotes from gm to balance the ashram pressure. That laissez faire attitude of his, minmal rules compared to other religions, suggested greater confidence in its roots, and is always the angle of resistance by premeies to 'it;s a cult'.

The one area of spin he's good at, covering the angles.

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Date: Sun, Oct 01, 2000 at 06:34:47 (GMT)
From: Tonette
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: Please G would you post these remarks
Message:
I really hope that you can find the time and where with all to elaborate. Yours is the only post that begins to answer what I've have asked in this thread.
Please, pretty please?
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Date: Sun, Oct 01, 2000 at 07:10:22 (GMT)
From: ExTex
Email: None
To: G
Subject: Please G would you post these remarks DITTO! (nt)
Message:
nt
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Date: Fri, Sep 29, 2000 at 17:16:28 (GMT)
From: Joe
Email: None
To: Tonette
Subject: Maharaji's Ashram Scandal
Message:
I think the cavalier way in which Maharaji handled the ashrams is something that will dog him for the rest of his life. There are too many of us out there who aren't about to forget what a rotten thing Maharaji did to us, and how little he seemed to care about the ashram residents. There are a whole bunch of us out there who really resent what Maharaji did to us, which is just magnified by the fact that Maharaji gave insulting excuses like the one you mentioned, or just refuses to admit that there was any problem.

As I mentioned down below, I left the cult in the Spring of 1983, and the ashrams were closed in the US, I think, later that year. So, when I left, I had nothing but my clothes, but I wasn't required to take on any debt, because, at that time, we all believed that the ashrams would go on forever. I was pressured heavily to remain, and people laid heavy guilt trips on me, but by that point, for me, the ashram wasn't the issue anymore, I no longer believed in Maharaji either.

As I also mentioned down below, a large number of the ashrams were in debt almost all the time, mostly because of the cost of going to programs, the cost to donate money to Maharaji himself, the cost to support Elan Vital, the cost to support Elan Vital personnel and initiators who didn't work, and, very significantly, the cost to donate to various expensive toys Maharaji wanted, like that Boeing 707 monstrosity that cost (and wasted) millions and millions of dollars.

Most of the ashram debt was on credit cards. When I was ashram housefather in two different cities, it was always a struggle to meet all the financial committments, because the ashram premies usually had relatively low-paying jobs, which they often lost because they had to take off for programs, and because Elan Vital moved people around a lot for 'service.' It was always a financial struggle to make ends meet. We had the advantage of living communally, but, besides debt, many of the needs that the ashram premies had, like medical, dental, clothing and other needs, were not adequately met, because there just wasn't the money. For example, I never had any dental work done the whole time I lived in the ashram because there wasn't any money for that.

Of course, we really believed, because Maharaji told us, that he was taking care of us, because we had dedicated our lives to him. His grace would take care of us, which he told us over and over would happen if we just surrendered our lives to him. That, of course, was a pile of crap, the falsity of which was exposed when he whimsically decided in 1983 to just shut down the ashrams with no preparation whatsoever. We are told by people on the inside of the cult that he did it because he was worried about the ashram premies being a liability as they got older, and because the ashrams weren't the cash cows for him that they used to be.

Just a few years previous, people like Randy Prouty, at Maharaji's direction, were harrassing people to move INTO the ashrams, if they didn't have kids, because that's what Maharaji wanted.

It was also weird because just the year before the ashrams were closed there was a terrible ashram inquisition, in which people like David Smith harrassed and tortured the ashram residents to double their committment or to get the hell out if they weren't 100% devoted and surrendered to Maharaji. This was, according to David Smith, at Maharaji's personal direction.

Then, the ashrams were closed about a year or so later, and from what I gather, little or nothing was done, financially, psychologically, or in any other sense, to help the ashram premies make the transition into the real world. Some of these people were true babies, if you know what I mean. Some had lived in the ashram for over a decade. There were in many cases great people, in fact, who just made the terrible mistake of trusting someone as deceitful and uncarring as Maharaji.

As I said, this is a terrible scandal in the Maharaji cult, and I don't think it will be forgotten soon, especially if Maharaji continues stonewalling like he has, and refusing to admit the terrible mistakes he made.

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Date: Sat, Sep 30, 2000 at 00:59:12 (GMT)
From: Rob
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: *Excellent Post Joe* and PS to Glen
Message:
You know, after years of writing, rewriting and manipulating copy for all kinds of devious corporate executives, in order to put the most convincing and appealing veneer on their lies (sorry guys, but it pays the rent!) I can instinctively tell when something has been 'constructed' and when it just flows from real experience. There is a passion, a singularity of message which is almost impossible to fake.

Reading Joe's post here, I had that feeling in spades. Compare this, if you will, with the pathetic, clumsy, stumbling fiction penned by Glen Whittaker on the EV site. His trick is brevity. Gloss over events spanning decades and affecting thousands of young people with a sparsity of words, leaving enough unsaid to provide leaway for the inevitable retorts to be covered with made-to-measure lies.

Glen, I've done it. I do it for a living for chrissake. When the subject matter is incontroversial and dear to your heart, you gabble. When it comes to sticky areas, like messianic denials and 'failed ashram experiments' you skip through it as tersely as possible. Maintaining the flow in those areas takes work, and I guess all that Yorkshire pudding has turned you into a lazy fat fuck, just like your master.

But there's trouble at 't mill, Glen. The natives are restless. I feel undercurrents going on, pusillanimous whispering among the faithful. Premies read your shit and it doesn't jive with their own experiences. They get confused, trying to see the lila in it all, but it hurts them too much. Then somehow they stumble in here and read posts like this one from Joe. It rings true, ironically just like that first satsang did all those years ago.

And they start to wonder........

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Date: Fri, Sep 29, 2000 at 16:46:16 (GMT)
From: gerry
Email: None
To: Tonette
Subject: Experiment that failed
Message:
Yes, I do find goober's answer disturbing and evil, even. He's sounds a lot like 'Doctor' Mengele to me.
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Date: Sat, Sep 30, 2000 at 08:03:16 (GMT)
From: JohnT
Email: None
To: gerry
Subject: Lardman Maha
Message:
Lardman Maha

How do I hate you,
Lardman Maha?
With bile.
I find you vile.
Your leaching hands milk away
Supporting strengths from other lives,
And almost worse than this...
You lie.
You lie with all your brain's deceitful art
To me; to mine; and worse,
You lie to calm your greedy heart.
I find you sad, but vile,
Lardman Maha.

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Date: Fri, Sep 29, 2000 at 09:57:49 (GMT)
From: The observant
Email: None
To: Tonette
Subject: Ashram Profits?
Message:
Probably the policy was to divide the assets among the remaining ahram residents. Sounds pretty fair to me.
In one country, I know for a fact that the remaining ashram residents divided furnitures and stuff, and a sum of about 40 000 $ was given to eash of those who still stayed in the ashram(the net cash after selling the ahsram appartement)
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Date: Fri, Sep 29, 2000 at 17:16:29 (GMT)
From: Way
Email: None
To: The observant
Subject: Dream on, mr. observant
Message:
You are living in a complete dream world.
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Date: Fri, Sep 29, 2000 at 17:43:05 (GMT)
From: The observant
Email: None
To: Way
Subject: Dream on, mr. Way?
Message:
Facts are facts.
In this case there were only 3 left in the ashram. One person renounced the money. So the 2 left shared the money. One of them thought it was wrong to receive the money, so he gave it away to the person who arranged for the appartement, (this person had just lost her partner.) The ashram premies who ended up receiving his half, bought a vintage sports car and had a pretty easy life for a couple of years.

The 2 other ashram residents do not come around any more. The person who renounced her part got married, studied medicin and her husband became a multimillionaire. (this is an irony in my opinion)

In the community there were different opinions in this case. Right or wrong, I think it tells a great deal about the mentality of people in ashrams.

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Date: Fri, Sep 29, 2000 at 18:25:09 (GMT)
From: Way
Email: None
To: The observant
Subject: Response to: Dream on, mr. Way?
Message:
Observant,

Would you forget that I insulted you for a moment and tell us what country you are from? Your spellings are curious. And in what country was the ashram that you talk about?

Ashram premies were not supposed to be property owners. It sounds like you are talking about a very, very unique case. I'm still confused as to the facts that you provide. Who actually owned the property and why would that money be split up among premies who only lived there?

I can see why a premie profiting off Maharaji would have been very controversial in your community - that's a big premie no-no!

In any event, your initial post not only spoke about that one case but about ashram premies in general sharing the profits. That's a total farce, and that's what I meant about you living in a dream world - you try to put a hopeful, positive spin on things that are actually negative, just to keep up appearances for your guru. You say that 'facts are facts' and I quite agree, and you need to look at the facts about Prem Pal Singh Rawat, even the facts that Elan Vital tries so hard to hide.

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Date: Fri, Sep 29, 2000 at 18:44:15 (GMT)
From: The observant
Email: None
To: Way
Subject: Response to: Dream on, mr. Way?
Message:
This might be a special case, my intention was just to state that sometimes things are different than what Yvette posted.

This special appartement had regualtions so it could not be owned by an institution nor a company.

Positive or negative is not for me to judge.

By the way, re gerrys false accusations in his posts, I am finally having appointment with a terapist reagrding the damages I had being sexually abused as a child.

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Date: Sat, Sep 30, 2000 at 02:55:16 (GMT)
From: Tonette
Email: None
To: The observant
Subject: Thank you for your honesty
Message:
Listen I know you get a bad rap here and so do you.
But all that aside, would you tell me when you started following M? And what country do you live in?
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Date: Fri, Sep 29, 2000 at 18:50:15 (GMT)
From: Way
Email: None
To: The observant
Subject: To Bjorn
Message:
Bjorn,

I think it is unfair of you to be posting here under a new assumed name.

I hope you get some help with your therapist. You might also mention to the doctor that you are currently following a guru who claims to be the equal of Jesus Christ.

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Date: Fri, Sep 29, 2000 at 19:48:48 (GMT)
From: The observant
Email: None
To: Way
Subject: To Way
Message:
First of all, I have for obious reasons changed my aliases. This is due to false accusations, outing and attacks on my person.

In one of my posts as The observant, in a reply to Rob, I signed Bjørn.

If you think that is unfair, dream on.

Your reply tells me about the mentality of the ex-premies.

Bottom line, I am a human being. Human beings are treated in a special way, Way, by the group that call them self ex-premies if those people happen to have a special belief. It is interesting to observe that you acept lies, false accusations, libel statements from your fellow believers, but jugde me for being unfair, because I am posting under different alias due to the reasons stated above.

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Date: Sat, Sep 30, 2000 at 03:08:30 (GMT)
From: Tonette
Email: None
To: The observant
Subject: Listen
Message:
I didn't mean to incite a riot!
I thank you for telling what you know. But listen, observant, most people here do not, at all, like M. Come on, we've been lied to, duped, sapped of our very spirituality by him. These are not small things for us to have endured as loving human beings.
But please do not group us, as ex-premies, in some sort of sick mentality! We have personal things to work out as well as helping others who feel as I/we do. Our mentality is not in question. Rather our journey, I would think is in righting a WRONG.
BTY, I was there and have been there throughout M's journey. I see very little, if any, factual mistakes. In other words, it's all true.
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Date: Fri, Sep 29, 2000 at 20:30:54 (GMT)
From: gerry
Email: None
To: bjorn
Subject: OK Bjorn, you win
Message:
You yourself stated that when you were a teenager, you had sexual feelings for a five year old girl. It is my understanding that such pedophilic impulses do not go away with age and maturity.

You are wierd, dude. You call us 'believers' as if we were the cult members, not you with your 'special belief.' Oh it's special, all right. Fucking sick if you ask me.

So tell us again about the 'mentality of ex-premies.'

PS I just got off the phone with my best ex buddy and she has advised me to stop 'conversing' with you for YOUR BENEFIT. Now tell me again about ex-premie mentalities.

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Date: Fri, Sep 29, 2000 at 21:49:33 (GMT)
From: Marianne
Email: None
To: Bjorn
Subject: Yeah, Bjorn
Message:
I was the person to whom geRrY was speaking. And the reason I told him not to talk to you anymore is this:

You say you were sexually abused as a child. Because I have many death row clients who were also sexually abused, I have learned a great deal about this issue. Your defense of Maharaji is just like someone who identifies with their abuser. Have you ever considered that your loyalty to the cult leader has happened because he is just like the person who abused you as a child? Have you ever considered that you make excuses for Maharaji's abusive behaviour because you are allowing yourself to recreate what happened to you as a child? Abuse victims often seek to justify the behavior of their abusers because they are struggling to understand someone would abuse them. Think about whether your on-going defense of Maharaji to people who are totally unsympathetic to your comments is connected to your history as a victim of sexual abuse.

Bring that to your therapist the next time you go. I did tell Gerry to leave you alone because your unending defense of M has started to strike me as pathetic and based in your history of abuse. I could be completely off base about this, but that's my impression today.

Marianne

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Date: Fri, Sep 29, 2000 at 22:26:34 (GMT)
From: Rob
Email: None
To: Bjorn
Subject: To Bjorn, friendly advice
Message:
Hey Bjorn

I am actually sorry to hear you are in need of therapy - all differences aside you have to understand that people here DO care about the well-being of others, despite your impression to the contrary.

This is often masked or over-ridden by the more spirited arguers here (yes, I include myself there) when faced with premies who insist on trying to force the party line when it is painfully clear they haven't once stood back and looked clearly at the issues or the situation they are in. So the effect often is, and appears to have been in your case, that we come across as uncaring and insensitive to your particular difficulties.

Well all I can say Bjorn, is that if you genuinely are going through some kind of personal strife right now, that you stay well away from the forum, at least for a couple of months, then see how you feel. I'm not just saying this to 'get rid of you', I am saying that from my own experience of having had counselling, it really does not help to continue to participate (no pun intended) in these arguments. I would endorse Marianne's suggestion also, that you disclose your entire involvement with the cult to your therapist, so that he or she may guide you through this.

Lastly, you must accept that if you refuse this advice, and carry on your pathetic, empty defences of maharaji, under whatever pseudonym (you are SOOO obvious, you may as well stick to 'Bjorn'), then you have only yourself to blame for being emotionally upset as a result.

Who was it once said 'you stick your foot in the crocodile's mouth and it's gonna hurt.....'?

Take care

Rob

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Date: Sat, Sep 30, 2000 at 15:55:28 (GMT)
From: Kjarne
Email: None
To: Rob
Subject: To ROB
Message:
Well, Bjorn is here now and I am not HIM. I am Kjarne, a different person, so I hope you don,t see ghosts in daylight again.

Regards

Kjarne

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Date: Sat, Sep 30, 2000 at 16:20:35 (GMT)
From: Rob
Email: None
To: Kjarne
Subject: To KJARNE
Message:
I guess I saw the Seven Faeces of Dr Lao too many times.

Well OK if you say you're somebody else, fine, even if you co-exist in the same head as Bjorn!!! (Just kidding.)

So how about sharing a bit more about yourself, like Bjorn did? That works wonders here for the way people will accept you.

It occurred to me that perhaps one of the reasons premies don't talk much beyond the boundaries of gumji-speak is because they are afraid of giving too much away. Wouldn't want to risk being 'identified' by lurking honchos, perhaps? Unfortunately that has the effect of making you come across as slightly robotic. Try talking like you would to your mates in the pub, or the people you work with. You know, give an impression of what Kjarne the person WITHOUT knowledge is like.

A kinder, gentler Rob.

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Date: Sat, Sep 30, 2000 at 00:34:19 (GMT)
From: Bjørn the observant
Email: None
To: Rob
Subject: To friendly advices
Message:
I started posting here about 9 months ago. I suppose it was a distraction, as I was in a situation where I just had lost a fortune. And I had to wait for things to work out. Surfing the internet I found ex-premies wrote about a person I cared about and admired. A person I regard as a friend.

I started to post and were surprised about the hostility.
In some post I read about the Jagdeo case. This did upset me. As I then started to remember things from my youth this conserned me a lot. I tried to find the thruth about it and about Maharajis role. I also wrote a post which was not very wise. In this post I tried to make a point that the tendancy for pedophile desires is something probably a certain percentage of the population have. So what I wrote was that at the age of 14 (actually 13) I had for a couple of days the experience of falling in love with a little girl. I stated that I was grateful that such feelings never ocurred later in my life. I aslo wrote that I had been a victim myself of abuse myself.

The result of this was acccusations of being a pedophile.

I dont know if you can imagine the feelings of not only being a victim of sexual abuse, but to be accused of being a criminal abuser. And not to mention that nobody (like in this tread) seemed to believe what you say.

To me it made me really depressed. In my country there was recently a program about pedophile. It was stated, as also I have tried to tell several times, that the worst thing for a victim often might be to bring back the memories of what happened to them. Eager lawyers were critisised because they pushed the cases, and there is a fact that in many cases there are a close realtionship between the abuser and the victim. A trial often brings to light for the victim his / her sufferings and the result is often that the closeness turns to lonliness and hate. According to what was told this situations even created suicidal attempts. So my point was the care of the victim is more important than the punishment of the pedophile.

In my opinion the peodophily is a tendency like a decease and the best thing for such persons is medical treatment. I also belive that the 'crucify the pedophiles' attitude , like it recently happened in England, is likely to be 'run' by persons who have pedophile tendencies, who try to hide this , or never will admit this .(like the homosexual father in the film 'American beauty).

Anyway, I think my reason for posting here, has been a stupid struggle to come over the depression I felt as all the memories that came into my being. I suppose I can let it go now and I am looking forward to what will happen to me. Re advices I will do according to what I feel is right for me, but I will not engage myself in any discussion with ex-premies. By the way, I have friends that are former premies, so it is hard for me to understand the mentality of the ex-premies.

In the satelite feed from England a few days ago, someone told me Maharaji had said something about that we human beings are 'feeling machines' and what situation we bring our self into, will generate the feelings we will end up with. Sound like a sound advice to me. ( A bit similar to Robs saying)

I am not trying to convince you about what to do in your life, nor to stop your efforts to post about Maharaji. That is entirely up to you, but it seems to me, there are some fanatical people here, and all together you sound like a propaganda machine. Therefore in my opinion there is a danger to have ones own thoughts uniformed into a certain pattern of thinking.

Anyway, I wish you a good life. And I hope 'my' case will rest.


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Date: Sat, Sep 30, 2000 at 20:08:51 (GMT)
From: gerry
Email: None
To: Bjørn the observant
Subject: You continue to lie
Message:
You never mentioned being a victim of sexual abuse when you were trying to rationalize and justify Jagdeo's appalling and criminal behaviour. You only did so much, much later in the conversation, days after you said you had sexual feelings for a five year old girl.

You're such a fucking liar:

also I have tried to tell several times, that the worst thing for a victim often might be to bring back the memories of what happened to them. Eager lawyers were critisised because they pushed the cases, and there is a fact that in many cases there are a close realtionship between the abuser and the victim. A trial often brings to light for the victim his / her sufferings and the result is often that the closeness turns to lonliness and hate. According to what was told this situations even created suicidal attempts. So my point was the care of the victim is more important than the punishment of the pedophile.

You fucking liar!!! You kept digging and digging, under different names to find out what EXACTLY happened to the victims of Jagdeo. BLOW BY BLOW. It was disgraceful and extremely upsetting to several people here. YOUR WHOLE THING WAS TO PROTECT MAHARAJI. YOU HAD NO INTEREST OTHER THAN PRURIENT INTEREST, IN THE VICTIMS.

I also belive that the 'crucify the pedophiles' attitude , like it recently happened in England, is likely to be 'run' by persons who have pedophile tendencies, who try to hide this , or never will admit this .(like the homosexual father in the film 'American beauty).

This is utter nonsense. Not even clever. And very similiar to the 'blame the victim' mentality.

In the satelite feed from England a few days ago, someone told me Maharaji had said something about that we human beings are 'feeling machines' and what situation we bring our self into, will generate the feelings we will end up with. Sound like a sound advice to me. ( A bit similar to Robs saying)

No it doesn't sound anything similiar to what Rob is saying. It's a stupid, meaningless thing to say. Like most of goober's prattle.

I am not trying to convince you about what to do in your life, nor to stop your efforts to post about Maharaji. That is entirely up to you, but it seems to me, there are some fanatical people here, and all together you sound like a propaganda machine. Therefore in my opinion there is a danger to have ones own thoughts uniformed into a certain pattern of thinking.

Fuck you with your 'fanatical people here' bullshit. You assholes are the fanatics. There are no fans of goober here, pal. And this bullshit about uniform pattern of thinking describes premies MUCH, MUCH more than it describes ANYONE here.

Anyway, I wish you a good life. And I hope 'my' case will rest.

Yeah, well fuck you again. You're starting to sound like that other phony fanatic, shp.

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Date: Sat, Sep 30, 2000 at 19:04:17 (GMT)
From: gerry
Email: None
To: Bjørn
Subject: Parting shot
Message:
Your 'point' about a certain percentage of people having pedophilic urges was a blatant attempt in justifying Jagdeo's behavior. A sick rationalization. This really angered me.

Then you went on to say that you, too, had the same urges when you were FIFTEEN. Not thirteen or fourteen. You kept lowering the age of this supposed one time incident until you felt it could somehow be justified because of youth or whatever.

I've never heard of anyone having these weird feelings and 'growing' out of them. The more likely scenario is that they escalate and their behaviour becomes increasingly more abberant and criminal.

What I am more willing to believe is that you lied and made up the whole thing, and that you did this to make Jagdeo's appalling behaviour seem 'normal.' As if this behaviour was something people go through and was just a natural part of growing up for some.

The great lengths which you and other premies go to in order to justify Rawat's lies is too much to take sometimes. To me you became a symbol of the worst of rawat's fanatic followers.

I hope you are really sincere about getting therapy. At this point, I have no reason to believe or trust anything you say. It could be all lies: lies about your financial troubles, lies about your childhood sexual abuse, lies about therapy, lies about your identity here on the forum, lies, lies, lies. Just like your make believe 'friend' rawat, the biggest liar of all.

I'm having a really difficult time generating any sympathy for you. Go away and stay away.

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Date: Sat, Sep 30, 2000 at 23:48:39 (GMT)
From: A question to gerry
Email: None
To: gerry
Subject: Why do you really lie, gerrry?
Message:
You wrote:
'Then you went on to say that you, too, had the same urges when you were FIFTEEN. Not thirteen or fourteen. You kept lowering the age of this supposed one time incident until you felt it could somehow be justified because of youth or whatever.'

Here is what Bjørn alias Bim wrote:

Date: Sat, Nov 20, 1999 at 05:43:29 (EST)
From: Bim Doubtfire
Email: bim_doubtfire@hotmail.com
To: Cynthia G.
Subject: Re: Pedophiles
Message:

Dear Cythia
Who are you? What is so important with that, I dont understand. I am a human being. The peak of my career the last 25 within EV / DLM was to operate the VCR at local programs. I dont know if I can call myself a premie. but I admit I aspire to. OK?

I did not write I feel sorry for Jagdeo. May be I do. I wrote I felt sad.
When I was 14 years old, I fell in love with a 5 year old girl. I did not do anything with her, but I had sexual feelings. Such feelings never occurred later in my life. When I read about pedophilic persons, I feel sad, but also grateful that such desires never developed within me.

I think I am very careful about jugding other people. That is based upon some very personal experiences were I was the victim.

What concerns Maharaji, I was lucky enough (or unlucky) not to go into the lord of the unverse thing. I did not understand it. In my life, I have accepted that it is a part of being a human to make mistakes.

Best regards

Bim

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Date: Sun, Oct 01, 2000 at 01:55:16 (GMT)
From: Rob
Email: None
To: Bjorn
Subject: You're hurting yourself here, my friend
Message:
Bjorn,

I don't remember reading that post of yours, perhaps it was during a time I was not reading the forum, I don't know.

Anyway, after reading that, I really do think you ought to keep that aspect of yourself out of the public view - surely you can see how it is only going to get turned against you? Have you talked to other premies about this? I'm curious to know if their reaction was any more sympathetic to what you received here.

I think the actual age this occurred is fairly immaterial, falling in love with a child that age is inappropriate at ANY age (unless you're also 5, I guess).

I sense that you view paedophilia as an illness? When I put aside my own disgust and anger at the manifestation of this deviation, I am able to agree - it is a mental illness and I believe the law also recognizes this fact and attempts to impose suitable treatment on offenders wherever possible ()please correct me if I'm wrong, Marianne or Jim).

Do you not then think it was doubly wrong of maharaji and his staff to ignore and suppress the Jagdeo allegations? By doing so they deprived the child victims justice and healing, but also denied Jagdeo the psychiatric help he so obviously needs?

If you'd like to talk about this offline, you may ask the FA for my email address if you like.

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Date: Sun, Oct 01, 2000 at 00:32:05 (GMT)
From: gerry
Email: None
To: Bim bjorn or whoever the
Subject: You said 15 in an earlier post, stupes.
Message:
That's all you have to say?

Good. Now piss off.

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Date: Sun, Oct 01, 2000 at 01:05:38 (GMT)
From: gerry
Email: None
To: Bim Doubtfire
Subject: OK I made a mistake, you did say 14 originally.
Message:
You brought this whole fucking thing on yourself though.

I apologize for my mistake and any extra pain it my have caused you. I stand by everything else I said in my last couple of posts to you.

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Date: Sat, Sep 30, 2000 at 09:24:15 (GMT)
From: ExTex
Email: None
To: Bjørn the observant
Subject: Brave and Honest Words. I wish you only......
Message:
healing and peace of mind. Therapy can be an empowering and enriching experience. You are on the right course. You are taking control of YOUR LIFE. This can only be good for you. Follow through.
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Date: Sat, Sep 30, 2000 at 06:37:09 (GMT)
From: Rob
Email: None
To: Bjørn the observant
Subject: Now you are talking like a human being
Message:
Do you see the difference? I do, it is like night and day. Compare what you have written here, say, with the robotic diatribe of Mike 'The Mushroom' Fronke, or the madcap ramblings of Deputy Dog and shp. Or even some of your own attempts to explain, justify or otherwise excuse maharaji.

We arrived here in much the same way; I stumbled in and fell back aghast at all the horrendous things being said about MY blessed maharaji. I didn't have monetary problems or too much time on my hands, but I did have suppressed doubts and a great deal of fear. Like you, I hammered my way through many, many heated arguments, the whole gamut of premie rhetoric and reiterated guru-wisdom. But beneath it all, there was a recognition that I was approaching a horrific, life-altering realization. If you have ever read Lord of the Rings, it would be like Gandalf sensing the approaching Balrog.

The winged beast I feared was the unwelcome truth that I had allowed myself to be duped for 25 years. I should qualify that really by saying that I, like ALL premies (if they are honest with themselves) had suppressed an uneasy feeling about this for at least 15 of those years. And, like most premies, had never, ever dared express it to anyone, not even myself.

Somewhere along the way, I cracked. It's no secret. I fell into the fire with the Balrog and, like Gandalf, emerged severely drained emotionally but victorious. I had looked my Lord in the face and seen him for the fraud he really is. Now that takes courage, Bjorn, and sadly few of the many doubting premies have found the strength in themselves to face that battle. Among those who have are those you would call 'fanatical' and 'propogandist'. If ever you take that journey into the pit - the pit of your own fear of divine retribution - and emerge with your eyes and your mind opened, you will realize how much of an insult those words are.

But you are not yet ready, so I won't berate you for your attitude.

For what its worth, I do feel you were harshly treated here over your 'inappropriate' disclosure. I've never had any similar feelings, nor was I ever abused as a child. Quite the contrary, my parents were both extremely loving and supportive. However, I can accept that one can have short-lived feelings of that nature, especially at that age, without any long-term sexual deviation being indicated. But really that ought to be kept between yourself and your therapist, and I can see no benefit to you from discussing it further here, even if you are only seeking to augment your denials.

It sounds to me very much like you need a break from all of this. From the forum, and even from listening to maharaji and other premies. Too many conflicting influences, too many philosophies competing for your attention. Give yourself a break, go do normal, mundane, fun stuff for a few months. Remember - the *real* Creator, or God, or whatever, will still be there for you even if you do tell maharaji to go fuck himself. And if it turns out that he IS *The One*, hey, he'll forgive you. Besides, it's His own fault for being so fucking enigmatic, right?!

Bjorn, you take care, and find the courage to explore those doubts of yours. Hey, I still practice the techniques when I want to, as do a lot of people here. I'm just over the guru, that's all.

Rob.

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Date: Tues, Oct 03, 2000 at 03:37:34 (GMT)
From: Rob
Email: None
To: cq
Subject: Thanks cq - see I can be nice when I try!!! (nt)
Message:
nt
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Date: Mon, Oct 02, 2000 at 18:18:52 (GMT)
From: cq
Email: None
To: Rob
Subject: I really enjoyed reading that, Rob. Thanks. (nt)
Message:
encore!
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Date: Tues, Oct 03, 2000 at 19:09:34 (GMT)
From: cq
Email: None
To: Rob
Subject: There's more to it than that, ain't there Rob?
Message:
Y'see, it's all too easy to pick holes in any premie's 'reasons' (not concepts, of course) for sticking with the Maha. And Bjorn has made it all the easier by opening up about an urge that he felt in his adolescence that was decidedly dodgy. Was he brave? Was he foolish? A bit of both? Perhaps he felt that by 'baring his soul' he would attract responses that were as unguarded as his. Who knows? And I guess Bjorn is unlikely to open up on that subject again (though he'd probably benefit from finding someone to talk to about it).

Anyway, my point is this:

Premies are not the enemy. Premies are people who have fallen deeper into the 'lila' (for want of a better word) of worshipping/adulating/respecting/getting off on the charismatic personality of a character who profits from their attention. They tell themselves they still get something out of the relationship with their 'Master' ... good dogs like they are (i.e. they enjoy breathing/meditating)

and to sum it up, the BIG difference between 'them and us', is that they are still enamoured of the teachings of a bloke WE once thought to be God incarnate.

That we share with them (though the new ones might quibble about it, now that his teachings have become so anodyne and bland).

But we've been where they are. The devotion. The mindlessness. The dependence.

And for you, Rob, to treat these premies apoligists as if you could have been one of them ... well. That's the big difference between your posts and those of us exes who prefer a more confrontative yet denying approach to the whole issue.

.
.
.

For what it's worth, I'd say that the more premies feel under attack, the stronger their faith in their 'Master' will be.

Absurd?

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Date: Sat, Sep 30, 2000 at 03:34:45 (GMT)
From: Tonette
Email: None
To: Bjørn the observant
Subject: You regard M as a friend?
Message:
Okay. Whatever.
Observant/Bjorn whomever, this forum is not at all a place for those who respect and respond to M. In fact, the forum, is downright unhealthy for those of us who have identity issues.
I would in all consciousness, as a medical person, advise you to leave this place. I trust, in your work with your therapist, there would be no problem in you disclosing your beliefs and the fact that you follow M to him/her. This is such a big part of your life how could you not tell 'all'?
I also think this web site, as well as others, would be a good place for your therapist to visit in order to get an understanding of what might per-chance be some of the things that you could work out. Frankly, I have found this site and others very beneficial.
Propangada and a certain pattern of thinking? I have only found truth here. And as for a certain way of thinking? Take a good look at this statement. How exactly does M say the experience should be? I have found the opinions here very diverse. As for M's talks, they are very repitious. 'Ones own thoughts uniformed into a certain pattern of thinking.'
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Date: Sat, Sep 30, 2000 at 01:00:51 (GMT)
From: Salam
Email: None
To: BJorne
Subject: Is this another I cann't see posts?
Message:
Whatever it is, I agree with Rob. This place is not for people that are looking for peer support. You need to be a blockhead to be here. It is cyberspace and any reply you recive is measured accourding to your post. I do suggest that you do not come to this forum if you are under treatement, especially if the cause is still fresh in your mind. I hope you do take advice. If you continue what you are doing then there is only one person to blame,

I wish you well,

Salam I was there.

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Date: Fri, Sep 29, 2000 at 20:28:25 (GMT)
From: Way
Email: None
To: The observant
Subject: Back to Bjorn
Message:
Bjorn,

I didn't see the Observant post where you signed your name.

I'm sorry if I have offended you. Actually, I think Gerry and some others are much too hard on you. I am a soft-hearted person and I have a strong suspicion that if you and I ever had the change to communicate face to face, I would be very sympathetic toward you, not only because of your painful past, which deserves respect, as you say; but also because I have a sympathy toward premies, having been one for over twenty years.

I know that on this forum, I oftentimes express myself to premies with undisguised contempt and sarcasm, but only when I feel that the target of my sarcasm deserves it. Most of the premies who post here are fringe premies who are expressing nothing but contemptible nonsense, in my opinion. However, when a premie is decent and honest, such as Susan was about 6 months ago, I find that I am very understanding of their feelings.

I consider myself a lover of truth. I do not accept lies, accusations and libelous statements. I do not believe that you are a paedophile. I think you are basically an honest person who deserves respect. I sincerely hope that you gain help from therapy.

The reason I say that it is unfair for you to post under different names is simply because we exes end up unknowingly repeating ourselves to the same person and there is no reason to keep on rehashing these issues over and over and over again and using the same arguments with someone who we already know has their mind made up.

I'm sorry but I do think it is unhealthy for you to follow Mr. Rawat as if he were the source of your own soul's experience. I was sincere when I suggested that you look into that part of your life when you are in therapy.

Again, I apologize for having offended you. So...how do you say 'peace' in Norwegian?

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Date: Fri, Sep 29, 2000 at 17:51:30 (GMT)
From: gerry
Email: None
To: The observant
Subject: O you're an idiot and retarded socially to boot...
Message:
So tell us asshole, just what exactly does this dubious story 'tell' about the mentality of ashram premies?
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Date: Fri, Sep 29, 2000 at 18:01:16 (GMT)
From: Monmot
Email: None
To: gerry
Subject: You do realize this is Bjorn you're talking to? nt
Message:
say no more
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Date: Fri, Sep 29, 2000 at 18:04:51 (GMT)
From: gerry
Email: None
To: Monmot
Subject: No I didn't but thanks for telling me.
Message:
You mean Bjorn the Norwegian who has sexually feelings for five year old girls? Yuck, I shall truly 'say no more' to this creep.
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Date: Fri, Sep 29, 2000 at 17:50:11 (GMT)
From: Joe
Email: None
To: The observant
Subject: What 'mentality?'
Message:
What sort of 'mentality of people in ashrams' are you talking about?
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Date: Fri, Sep 29, 2000 at 18:18:18 (GMT)
From: The observant
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: What 'mentality?'
Message:
The mentality of being idealistic, naive, and to have a religous attitude of unselfish thinking.
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Date: Fri, Sep 29, 2000 at 18:23:22 (GMT)
From: gerry
Email: None
To: The observant
Subject: So Bjorn, spy any choice kiddies lately?
Message:
And this 'mentality' thing: does it apply to every premie and did you take a poll or are you just blowing smoke out your ass again?

Why aren't you in prison? Does the local law enforcement know about your 'proclivities?'

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Date: Fri, Sep 29, 2000 at 18:22:19 (GMT)
From: Joe
Email: None
To: The observant
Subject: What 'mentality?'
Message:
Yes, that was a prevalent mentality in the ashram, because the ashram was set up as a renunciate institution. You sort of had to be into that to some degree, or at least aspire towards it because of Maharaji's directions, or else you wouldn't be there.

And wouldn't you think that people with that 'mentality' were particularly vulnerable to a megalomaniac like Maharaji?

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Date: Sat, Sep 30, 2000 at 04:08:48 (GMT)
From: Tonette
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: I missed something Observant.
Message:
Are you really in prison?
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Date: Fri, Sep 29, 2000 at 16:56:24 (GMT)
From: Joe
Email: None
To: The observant
Subject: Not the usual case...
Message:
I don't know about that particular situation, but I can say that in the USA, when the ashrams closed, the majority of them were in debt, and the ashram residents were required to pay off the debt on their own. Maharaji and Elan Vital offered no assistance whatsoever in paying off the debt, despite the fact that the ashram residents turned over every cent of their income the entire time they were in the ashram. And much of that money went directly to Maharaji, and to Elan Vital.

In addition, the ashrams supported many Elan Vital personnel, like community coordinators and initiators, as well as Elan Vital officials. It was disgraceful that Maharaji, with all his immense wealth, was unwilling to contribute a dime to help reduce the debt of people who had dedicated their lives to him, especially since he just decided one day on a whim to close the ashrams the throw the ashram residents into the streets. This, after ranting for years about how the ashram was a life-long committment and how one should never leave. But, of course, Maharaji is a hypocritical liar on a lot of things, not just this.

I know for a fact that the Montreal ashram closed and a premie I spoke with got stuck with $20,000 in debt. It took her years after leaving the ashram to pay it off.

G, reported that the got stuck with thousands of dollars in debt when his ashram closed. I'm sure G would be happy to fill in the details.

Most of the ashrams were either in debt, or just barely out of debt, because of the cost of going to programs, the requirements to support Maharaji personally and Elan Vital as well, and the cost of supporting Elan Vital personnel who didn't work. I was one of those people for awhile, so I know.

Fortunately for me, I left the cult a few months before the ashrams were closed. So, although I left with nothing but my clothes, at least I didn't have a debt.

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Date: Sat, Sep 30, 2000 at 03:55:20 (GMT)
From: Tonette
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: Thanks for the info and specifics
Message:
Yes, very specifically it was stated that deciding to live in the ashram was 'for your whole life.' Funny, that policy changed in just over a decade. Not funny at all that our Lord 'changed his mind.' Yes, I think, that word mind especially applies to M.
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Date: Fri, Sep 29, 2000 at 10:13:27 (GMT)
From: Tonette
Email: None
To: The observant
Subject: That's interesting
Message:
Do you know what country? Who's name was on the deed/title? Was the apartment bought with someone's trust fund money?
That's a different twist. There was actually money left over! 40,000 dollars each for how many ashram residents? Now that is quite a tidy sum. The apartment must of been just about in the free and clear, ie no mortgage and also in some prime location. Do you know any more details?
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Date: Fri, Sep 29, 2000 at 10:37:23 (GMT)
From: Salam
Email: None
To: Tonette
Subject: That's interesting
Message:
Say 10 people. that is 400,000 dollers 18 years ago. Big money indeed. I am surprised gm did not ask for that money.
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Date: Fri, Sep 29, 2000 at 14:41:25 (GMT)
From: Yves
Email: None
To: Salam
Subject: Smells like a lie to me
Message:
Let's go see if Pinnichio's nose grew lately:

http://www.oz.net/~drek/dance_dirty.html

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Date: Fri, Sep 29, 2000 at 14:46:00 (GMT)
From: Salam
Email: None
To: Yves
Subject: If you know the observant
Message:
you would not say that. He is a straight jacket ex-accountant look a like that does not smile because it hurts his face to do so. No I think it is true.
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Date: Fri, Sep 29, 2000 at 09:32:41 (GMT)
From: Salam
Email: None
To: Tonette
Subject: An Experiment that failed
Message:
What is more than evil?

What would Hitler say about killing 6 million jews.

An experiment on human being that failed.

fuckin piss artist crapp filled fat ugly mother of a guru.

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Date: Fri, Sep 29, 2000 at 13:43:15 (GMT)
From: Gordon Showcase
Email: None
To: Salam
Subject: An Experiment that failed
Message:
We all know why it failed. Because the premies were failures. Maharaji tried to get them off drugs and rehabilitate them into the community but they abused his help and squandered his money on going to the cinema and all night tofu parties.

Many of the ashrams had become dens of iniquity with pornographic magazines such as 'National Geographic' being blatantly left lying around the satsang room. I saw SS&M crazed ashram secretaries turning into little Hitlers and latter day Al Capones. I myself saw one ashram van with an out of date tax disk. God knows how many other crimes went untold.

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Date: Sat, Sep 30, 2000 at 03:37:12 (GMT)
From: Tonette
Email: None
To: Gordon Showcase
Subject: Your're full of shit
Message:
Either this is a joke, right, or you are also stupid to boot.
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Date: Fri, Sep 29, 2000 at 21:19:59 (GMT)
From: Elan Vital
Email: None
To: Gordon Showcase
Subject: Ashrams: A Successful Drug Prevention Program
Message:
Dear Mr. Showcase:

Your recent post came to our attention amid all the unsubstantiated, scathing and scurrilous attacks against us and Maharaji on the Internet, mostly hurled by anonymous malcontents who have nothing better to do with their lives besides hurting decent, charitable people like us, who are just helping Maharaji educate people about the peace and love inside of them. We were terribly hurt, until we started feeling grateful again, and then, in no time, we were grateful for having gratitude, and then it's just so beautiful. Plus, we have the gift of participation. Gifts are just all over the place, and that's a gift too. We are just gifted by gifts.

Regarding the ashrams, which very few people chose to be in you know, and as we state clearly on our website, the ashrams were elimintated shortly after Maharaji got out from under the influence of his mother, who was an Indian national who was also a Hindu, and we all know what that is probably like; she was a raving, controlling, bitch with all kinds of Hindu concepts and ideas that just got in the way over here in America, and it was just so courageous for Maharaji, after having sex with Marolyn at age 16, right under his Mother's nose, practically, to stand up to her and tell her to get lost. He was just so focused on the purpose of his life, which is to talk simply about knowledge, while simultaneously, and with great synchronization, getting a pilot's license and also writing poetry while wearing several collectible watches on both arms.

Anyway, as we also say on our website, the purpose of the ashrams was to save many people from DRUG CULTURE. Those ashram residents should be just so grateful they they didn't die of drug overdoses, and every one of them would have, were it not for the supreme caring of Maharaji to provide 'shelter' for them. This is the reason there are not quite as many premies today as there were in 1974, because the premies who weren't in the ashram all died from DRUG CULTURE, or they are currently in mental institutions. Not everyone is willing to accept the gift after akk, and that's somewhat sad, although it was their choice.

Now, as is common knowledge, the DRUG CULTURE was entirely eliminated in 1983, so then it was safe to close those shelters and Maharaji, out of his kindness and concern, did just that, because he realized they weren't needed and because they were a big, Hindu concept. It only took about 12 years after Maharaji arrived in the West and was frightened by a naked woman on a bed, for him to realize this. It was gift, after all, both having the ashrams, and closing them.

We have also noticed that a number of those 'ex-premies' who say they lived in the ashrams were the very ones who caused all the problems. They just didn't want the ashrams to close because they were having such a good time being saved from DRUG CULTURE and doing things like not having sex and having rotten teeth. You can kind of understand someone not wanting to let go of that, but, of course, some people just were not willing to accept that Maharaji was getting rid of Hindu concepts and that the ashrams were just not needed anymore, being that all the drugs were gone in 1983, and all. So, that's why these people are so upset. They want the ashrams back, and Maharaji has been unable to oblige them.

So, instead of just accepting the gifts Maharaji is currently giving, they want the old, Hindu gifts back, and they are just rigid, and unwilling to change. It's really kind of sad and we feel sorry for them, that is, when they aren't saying mean and false things about us and Maharaji. We at Elan Vital have a strict and highly ethical policy that everyone who now criticizes Maharaji is just stuck in their concepts, and are just disgruntled ashram wannabees. We also have a policy that these people should get lives.

We hope this clarifies things for you. If you would like to reach our PR person, Booth Dyess or one of his numerous female assitants, by whom he has fathered no children we are aware of, please contact us at ElanVital@wearenotacult/wereallyaren't.org.

Sincerely,

Elan Vital

ABSOLUTELY NOT A CULT SINCE 1971

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Date: Sat, Sep 30, 2000 at 09:58:09 (GMT)
From: ExTex
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: Booth Dyess!!!
Message:
Wow! Booth Dyess! He was one of the fanatics from when I lived in Houston!!! He has been involved since BEFORE Guru Puja Montrose (where I got indoctrinated). I cannot believe that he is still involved. Amazing! That is heading towards almost 30 years for him! Pathetic.

Sad really, like it is for all those poor bastards still wasting their lives. Insane!
It gives me the fucking creeps! I wonder who else that I used to know is still involved? How would I find out? Is there an active premie register? Too wierd.

And just what the hell does Elan Vital mean and who came up with such a stupid name?

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Date: Tues, Oct 03, 2000 at 17:16:51 (GMT)
From: Janet of Venice
Email: None
To: ExTex
Subject: Booth Dyess!!!
Message:
the name rings familiar. Did I know you in Houston?? it was Houston where my father tricked me into going into psychiatric'observation'(that turned into 9 months of locked care). arrived on Texas soil end of august 1981, got driven to houston hospital(methodist, on Fannin ST--across the park from the ashram, tho i didnt know that then) oct 6th of 81 and locked in. premies came to visit me there once. spent next six months out by sharpestown mall at a place called West Oaks, still locked in. got out in april of 82 and went to live on Bissonnett street. discovered a premie optometrist named don, living across the street while i was in a halfway house. i remember three ashrams in houston at that time--one across the park from methodist medical center, one in a duplex where you went up some blond hardwood stairs to the upper floor, and another in a tiny, cozy house with a carriage house in back. i remember there being a community pool across the street from it, behind a chainlink fence, where a lotta little black kids went swimming. i remember Eve was getting foot surgery and going to travel agent school. i remember a jewish guy with a guitar, sang at satsang, who was funny in a dour sort of way. name began with a J, very biblical. joshua, jason, jeramiah, jonah... like that. Booth Dyess fits in somewhere, in all that. was any of this during your time in Houston? Did we meet then? would have been May to July of 82. I went on an odyssey escaping the mental system by pickup truck when my son's premie father came to Houston in July to visit. he drove me away from there and took me all the way bAck to Fort Lauderdale with him . I went to Guru Puja, Miami 82.Spent august looking at apartments for myself in lauderdale, decided agains it.Took a plane to los angeles, where my ister took me to meet Hilly Zeitlin. he was the first ex premie i ever met. she hoped it would deprogram me. it didnt. it gave me the creeps. hilly was nice, but i realized my family was bent on reforming me. left los angeles in early november on a bus to Denver. stayed in the basement of a premie family i knew. had to jump on another bus back to houston after thanksgiving, when my family wouldnt mail me my disability checks. was appalled to discover the houston ashrams had disappeared since i was there last. could only find don the optometrist, right across the street from my old psychiatrists offices. that put a fear into me! don took me to miami for MJ's birthday Dec 10th. I saw my son's father again in lauderdale. he put me on a bus back to Denver, where I landed in snow with sunbelt clothes, a hefty sack with my laundry in it, and a thousand dollars in back checks on me, I took the first apartment i could get. I stayed there ten years. vowed i wouldnt move on until i either recovered myself from my ordeal, or died there, whichever came first.if you were there then, talk to me. help me regain my memories. the mental hospital scarred me. the vanishing of the ashrams terrified me. the abandoment of my family and my community propelled me into suicidal beliefs for years following. Help me make sense of it all?
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Date: Sat, Sep 30, 2000 at 13:32:13 (GMT)
From: Boston Momma
Email: None
To: Booth Dyess!!
Subject: Booth Dyess!!!
Message:
Hello Booth,

I've been wondering off and on over the years what became of the antique 'rocking chair' I lent the mother of your son years ago. You do remember you have a son I hope.

At any rate I've found you listed as a Deltek Employee:

http://cs.deltek.com/employee.asp

So, I'll be contacting you via Deltek and perhaps you or your wealthy family can arrange for the return of this chair as it is of great sentimental value to me. Maybe you don't know but mothers tend to cherish an item such as the rocking chair the mother of your son is holding the very one I nursed both my children in.

Now don't be a prig like your goohoo and when you hear from me try to step out of your twilight zone of adoration and money making to respect and honor my wishes. It was clearly stated that the item was a 'loner'.

Have a great weekend.

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