Steve Quint -:- Fat Rawat's Fat -:- Wed, Oct 04, 2000 at 12:51:24 (GMT)

__ Janet of Venice -:- Fat Rawat's Fat -:- Thurs, Oct 05, 2000 at 05:11:18 (GMT)

__ __ Steve Quint -:- Fat Rawat's Fat -:- Thurs, Oct 05, 2000 at 09:56:31 (GMT)

__ Elan Vital -:- Judging people based on size -:- Thurs, Oct 05, 2000 at 00:17:47 (GMT)

__ gerry -:- An excellent theory -:- Wed, Oct 04, 2000 at 14:54:06 (GMT)

__ __ Steve Quint -:- An excellent theory -:- Wed, Oct 04, 2000 at 15:45:47 (GMT)

__ __ Steve Quint -:- An excellent theory -:- Wed, Oct 04, 2000 at 15:28:42 (GMT)

__ __ __ gerry -:- Unified FatRat Theory -:- Wed, Oct 04, 2000 at 15:39:21 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ Steve Quint -:- Unified FatRat Theory -:- Wed, Oct 04, 2000 at 16:04:11 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ Lotus Eater -:- Unified FatRat Theory -:- Wed, Oct 04, 2000 at 19:37:15 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ A former 'lover' of the L -:- Lesley's protests aside, a summation... -:- Wed, Oct 04, 2000 at 20:53:41 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Lotus Eater -:- A good pair of points, sir -:- Fri, Oct 06, 2000 at 19:30:32 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ cq -:- Talking of a good pair ... -:- Fri, Oct 06, 2000 at 20:27:32 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Lotus Eater -:- Good grief, no I hadn't heard that, but how -:- Sat, Oct 07, 2000 at 18:27:36 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Salam -:- Another theory -:- Thurs, Oct 05, 2000 at 00:14:26 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Roger eDrek -:- He was breast fed by his mother until when? -:- Thurs, Oct 05, 2000 at 00:27:13 (GMT)

Steve -:- Justice III -:- Wed, Oct 04, 2000 at 10:27:40 (GMT)

__ Steve -:- Thank you Steve Q... -:- Wed, Oct 04, 2000 at 14:51:24 (GMT)

__ Sir Dave -:- Insidious hijacking of the English language -:- Wed, Oct 04, 2000 at 12:48:13 (GMT)

__ __ Steve Quint -:- Insidious hijacking of the English language -:- Wed, Oct 04, 2000 at 13:06:28 (GMT)

__ Stuart -:- Justice III -:- Wed, Oct 04, 2000 at 11:37:55 (GMT)

__ __ Janet of Venice -:- Justice III -:- Thurs, Oct 05, 2000 at 05:26:17 (GMT)

__ __ Scott T. -:- Consideration 101 -:- Wed, Oct 04, 2000 at 13:25:05 (GMT)

__ __ Steve Quint -:- Justice III -:- Wed, Oct 04, 2000 at 12:33:01 (GMT)

__ __ Sir Dave -:- You've no right here Stuart -:- Wed, Oct 04, 2000 at 12:20:36 (GMT)

__ Bongo -:- Justice III -:- Wed, Oct 04, 2000 at 11:00:07 (GMT)

__ __ cq -:- Well said there, Bongo. Whoever thought that the -:- Wed, Oct 04, 2000 at 19:32:28 (GMT)

__ __ __ Roger eDrek -:- good points, Steve Q. and cq -:- Thurs, Oct 05, 2000 at 02:51:56 (GMT)

sam -:- too late for some? -:- Wed, Oct 04, 2000 at 09:37:02 (GMT)

__ Tonette -:- It's never to late!!!!!! nt -:- Thurs, Oct 05, 2000 at 03:10:12 (GMT)

__ poul -:- too late for some? -:- Wed, Oct 04, 2000 at 20:35:16 (GMT)

__ Lotus Eater -:- too late for some? -:- Wed, Oct 04, 2000 at 19:21:51 (GMT)

__ __ sam -:- too late for some? -:- Thurs, Oct 05, 2000 at 10:53:51 (GMT)

__ Sir Dave -:- too late for some? -:- Wed, Oct 04, 2000 at 12:52:51 (GMT)

__ __ Bongo -:- too late for some? -:- Thurs, Oct 05, 2000 at 11:09:29 (GMT)

__ __ sam -:- sir dave, how true -:- Thurs, Oct 05, 2000 at 11:08:53 (GMT)

Steve -:- Justice II -:- Wed, Oct 04, 2000 at 06:24:32 (GMT)

__ Joe -:- Justice II -:- Wed, Oct 04, 2000 at 19:47:19 (GMT)

__ __ Way -:- les manipulations mentales -:- Thurs, Oct 05, 2000 at 15:16:55 (GMT)

__ __ __ Joe -:- Lawsuits -:- Thurs, Oct 05, 2000 at 17:59:38 (GMT)

__ __ Janet of Venice -:- Justice II -:- Thurs, Oct 05, 2000 at 06:07:35 (GMT)

__ __ cq -:- The IRS might - they grant EV 'church' status (nt) -:- Wed, Oct 04, 2000 at 19:51:47 (GMT)

__ __ __ Joe -:- Yeah, but that's up to the IRS (nt) -:- Wed, Oct 04, 2000 at 20:08:08 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ cq -:- I thought diddling the IRS was a criminal offense? -:- Wed, Oct 04, 2000 at 20:14:44 (GMT)

__ Hal/Steve -:- Excuse me- Ahoy there! steve -:- Wed, Oct 04, 2000 at 10:27:48 (GMT)

__ __ Steve -:- Excuse me- Ahoy there! steve -:- Wed, Oct 04, 2000 at 10:40:06 (GMT)

__ __ __ Jim -:- It's just common sense, isn't it? -:- Wed, Oct 04, 2000 at 13:40:58 (GMT)

__ __ __ Salam -:- notice. -:- Wed, Oct 04, 2000 at 11:25:23 (GMT)

__ sam -:- a law against misrepresenting yourself as god (nt -:- Wed, Oct 04, 2000 at 09:43:13 (GMT)

buzz -:- yout thought and feelings -:- Wed, Oct 04, 2000 at 06:09:09 (GMT)

la-ex -:- anyone know Hilly Zeitlin?an ex-p,now deprogramer -:- Wed, Oct 04, 2000 at 04:44:38 (GMT)

__ Janet of Venice -:- anyone know Hilly Zeitlin?an ex-p,now deprogramer -:- Thurs, Oct 05, 2000 at 06:23:14 (GMT)

__ Monmot -:- Check this out... -:- Wed, Oct 04, 2000 at 04:57:09 (GMT)

__ __ Salam -:- Check this out... -:- Wed, Oct 04, 2000 at 11:53:33 (GMT)

__ __ __ gerry -:- Hilly has a website (Billy was a mountain) -:- Wed, Oct 04, 2000 at 15:21:09 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ Salam -:- Hilly has a website (Billy was a mountain) -:- Wed, Oct 04, 2000 at 23:29:06 (GMT)

Larkin -:- All Hail to the Lord with the 100 ft yacht! -:- Wed, Oct 04, 2000 at 03:57:38 (GMT)

__ cq -:- what's the tune? (it really helps, y'know) nt -:- Wed, Oct 04, 2000 at 19:39:03 (GMT)

__ __ Larkin -:- It hasn't got one, but... -:- Thurs, Oct 05, 2000 at 16:05:09 (GMT)

__ Loaf -:- Hurrah !!! (NT) -:- Wed, Oct 04, 2000 at 14:34:36 (GMT)

suchabanana -:- ATTN: r.e. LAWSUITS, AND OTHER RECOURSE, ACTION!!! -:- Wed, Oct 04, 2000 at 03:03:57 (GMT)

__ Janet of Venice -:- ATTN: r.e. LAWSUITS, AND OTHER RECOURSE, ACTION!!! -:- Thurs, Oct 05, 2000 at 06:43:48 (GMT)

__ Way -:- about lawsuits -:- Wed, Oct 04, 2000 at 15:04:14 (GMT)

__ Roger eDrek -:- Don't forget RICO, sucha -:- Wed, Oct 04, 2000 at 04:01:24 (GMT)

__ __ suchabanana -:- suits; pr campaign; demo/teach K. free on internet -:- Wed, Oct 04, 2000 at 19:06:26 (GMT)

__ __ __ Jim -:- Drop the 'respect' -- take a good, hard look -:- Wed, Oct 04, 2000 at 23:54:36 (GMT)

__ __ __ gerry -:- experience? what experience? -:- Wed, Oct 04, 2000 at 21:59:14 (GMT)

Steve -:- Party Time -:- Wed, Oct 04, 2000 at 02:20:58 (GMT)

__ sam -:- gonna cut a rap track of that?(nt) -:- Wed, Oct 04, 2000 at 10:06:08 (GMT)

__ __ Janet of Venice -:- gonna cut a rap track of that?(nt) -:- Thurs, Oct 05, 2000 at 06:47:02 (GMT)

Steve -:- Silence -:- Wed, Oct 04, 2000 at 02:04:35 (GMT)

Steve -:- Class Action Suit -:- Tues, Oct 03, 2000 at 20:58:40 (GMT)

__ suchabanana -:- r.e. Logic: CLASS ACTION SUIT(Legal Reality Check) -:- Wed, Oct 04, 2000 at 02:39:13 (GMT)

__ __ gErRy -:- Don't gimme any of that legal cult speak, buster -:- Wed, Oct 04, 2000 at 15:12:46 (GMT)

__ SURE -:- sure! -:- Tues, Oct 03, 2000 at 22:31:21 (GMT)

Steve -:- Going for a strikeout -:- Tues, Oct 03, 2000 at 20:55:39 (GMT)

steve -:- Justice -:- Tues, Oct 03, 2000 at 18:21:52 (GMT)

__ Salam -:- psss. -:- Wed, Oct 04, 2000 at 01:33:59 (GMT)

__ __ steve -:- psss. -:- Wed, Oct 04, 2000 at 01:42:02 (GMT)

__ __ __ Janet of Venice -:- fear -:- Thurs, Oct 05, 2000 at 06:53:29 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ cq -:- conspiracy=breathing together. True. (literally) -:- Fri, Oct 06, 2000 at 20:24:21 (GMT)

Jim -:- My latest talk with Dettmers -:- Tues, Oct 03, 2000 at 17:57:00 (GMT)

__ Yves -:- That's all folks -:- Fri, Oct 06, 2000 at 13:58:04 (GMT)

__ __ Jim -:- You mean Mike hasn't contact you yet? (nt) -:- Fri, Oct 06, 2000 at 17:26:16 (GMT)

__ GAC -:- Tough Luck You're pissed - Deacon Dettmers - -:- Wed, Oct 04, 2000 at 11:50:34 (GMT)

__ CHR -:- Leave the guy alone -:- Wed, Oct 04, 2000 at 11:46:13 (GMT)

__ __ Susan -:- I agree CHR -:- Fri, Oct 06, 2000 at 19:01:36 (GMT)

__ __ JohnT -:- Why excuse Rawat's accessories to fraud? -:- Thurs, Oct 05, 2000 at 12:49:31 (GMT)

__ __ Roger eDrek -:- this is definitely going to be self righteous -:- Wed, Oct 04, 2000 at 21:47:16 (GMT)

__ __ __ CHR -:- this is definitely going to be self righteous -:- Thurs, Oct 05, 2000 at 04:18:15 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ Roger eDrek -:- well... -:- Thurs, Oct 05, 2000 at 05:11:34 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ Bin Liner -:- well... -:- Thurs, Oct 05, 2000 at 19:08:47 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ Roger eDrek -:- and JohnT says it so well above, too (nt) -:- Thurs, Oct 05, 2000 at 22:58:28 (GMT)

__ __ __ Gordon Showcase -:- this is definitely going to be self righteous -:- Thurs, Oct 05, 2000 at 00:03:46 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ Scott T. -:- Free valuable wats collection, maybe... -:- Thurs, Oct 05, 2000 at 03:47:56 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ Roger eDrek -:- can you get me some of those 70's drugs? -:- Thurs, Oct 05, 2000 at 01:56:39 (GMT)

__ __ Joe -:- Hope this isn't self-righteous -:- Wed, Oct 04, 2000 at 20:01:16 (GMT)

__ __ __ CHR -:- Hope this isn't self-righteous -:- Thurs, Oct 05, 2000 at 03:56:33 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ Joe -:- Hope this isn't self-righteous -:- Thurs, Oct 05, 2000 at 17:23:44 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ Scott T. -:- Hope this isn't self-righteous -:- Thurs, Oct 05, 2000 at 04:32:31 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ CHR -:- Hope this isn't self-righteous -:- Thurs, Oct 05, 2000 at 05:00:39 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ la-ex -:- Hope this isn't self-righteous -:- Thurs, Oct 05, 2000 at 15:04:27 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ Jim -:- The APPARENT Dettmers paradox -:- Thurs, Oct 05, 2000 at 14:21:14 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Roger eDrek -:- Hey! Why me? I haven't done nothing... -:- Fri, Oct 06, 2000 at 00:19:17 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Jim -:- Hey! Why me? I haven't done nothing... -:- Fri, Oct 06, 2000 at 00:35:59 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Roger eDrek -:- Moi? -:- Fri, Oct 06, 2000 at 00:44:37 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Jim -:- Oh? What kind of pictures? (nt) -:- Fri, Oct 06, 2000 at 00:56:25 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Roger eDrek -:- Like these, of course -:- Fri, Oct 06, 2000 at 01:18:32 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Yves -:- Liste Roger. It is ME who Jim called a weirdo -:- Fri, Oct 06, 2000 at 14:08:31 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Jim -:- Yes, well everyone gets their little moment (nt) -:- Fri, Oct 06, 2000 at 16:16:03 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Fergie -:- I told Prince Andy to burn those... -:- Fri, Oct 06, 2000 at 02:22:52 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Jim -:- That's not Joan Apter! -:- Fri, Oct 06, 2000 at 01:25:40 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Jim -:- THIS is Joan Apter! -:- Fri, Oct 06, 2000 at 02:27:08 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Scott T. -:- The APPARENT Dettmers paradox -:- Thurs, Oct 05, 2000 at 21:02:41 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Jim -:- Am I for 'em or agin' 'em? -:- Thurs, Oct 05, 2000 at 21:17:55 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Scott T. -:- Am I for 'em or agin' 'em? -:- Fri, Oct 06, 2000 at 03:55:54 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Bin Liner -:- The APPARENT Dettmers paradox -:- Thurs, Oct 05, 2000 at 19:41:45 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Joe -:- Great analysis Jim, and thanks, finally..... -:- Thurs, Oct 05, 2000 at 17:13:39 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Jim -:- I don't normally change flattering subject lines -:- Thurs, Oct 05, 2000 at 17:34:52 (GMT)

__ __ GAC -:- Hush Fund? -:- Wed, Oct 04, 2000 at 11:55:22 (GMT)

__ __ __ CHR -:- Hush Fund? -:- Wed, Oct 04, 2000 at 12:31:46 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ cq -:- come on in, the waters ... murky -:- Wed, Oct 04, 2000 at 19:47:12 (GMT)

__ Salam -:- My latest talk with Dettmers -:- Wed, Oct 04, 2000 at 01:30:11 (GMT)

__ __ Salam -:- In fact: YVES KEEP IT UP..nt -:- Wed, Oct 04, 2000 at 01:36:14 (GMT)

__ Scott T. -:- My latest talk with Dettmers -:- Wed, Oct 04, 2000 at 00:05:53 (GMT)

__ Joe -:- Someone else. -:- Tues, Oct 03, 2000 at 23:35:18 (GMT)

__ JohnT -:- The heart of darkness -:- Tues, Oct 03, 2000 at 22:06:01 (GMT)

__ Roger eDrek -:- Pure and total horseshit! -:- Tues, Oct 03, 2000 at 22:05:12 (GMT)

__ __ Nigel -:- I don't know, Rog... MD was a premie -:- Wed, Oct 04, 2000 at 00:33:02 (GMT)

__ __ Bin Liner -:- Pure and total horseshit! -:- Tues, Oct 03, 2000 at 23:03:14 (GMT)

__ Buzz -:- My latest talk with Dettmers -:- Tues, Oct 03, 2000 at 19:40:54 (GMT)

__ Lotus Eater -:- Dear Premies.....nice to see you again -:- Tues, Oct 03, 2000 at 19:39:17 (GMT)

__ Joe -:- My latest talk with Dettmers -:- Tues, Oct 03, 2000 at 18:55:42 (GMT)

__ __ Scott T. -:- Two great posts in one thread (nt). -:- Wed, Oct 04, 2000 at 00:46:30 (GMT)

__ __ Nige -:- Well said, 'nuff said! (nt) -:- Tues, Oct 03, 2000 at 23:10:13 (GMT)

__ __ Way -:- You're right, Joe,... -:- Tues, Oct 03, 2000 at 19:47:15 (GMT)

__ __ __ Jim -:- Well, so much for ex-premie journalism -:- Tues, Oct 03, 2000 at 22:02:54 (GMT)

__ Joe -:- Correcting Michael Dettmers about his resume -:- Tues, Oct 03, 2000 at 18:26:14 (GMT)

__ __ Jim -:- Really, Joe! -:- Tues, Oct 03, 2000 at 19:40:01 (GMT)

__ cq -:- Thanks for that, Jim -:- Tues, Oct 03, 2000 at 18:07:59 (GMT)

__ Jim -:- I meant 'threw', of course (nt) -:- Tues, Oct 03, 2000 at 17:59:23 (GMT)

suchabanana -:- Technique #5: quick enlightenment revealed! New!! -:- Tues, Oct 03, 2000 at 17:32:03 (GMT)

__ suchabanana -:- guaranteed (typo) nt -:- Tues, Oct 03, 2000 at 17:38:26 (GMT)

gerry -:- One simple Objective -:- Tues, Oct 03, 2000 at 15:07:25 (GMT)

__ Jerry -:- One simple Objective -:- Wed, Oct 04, 2000 at 00:18:07 (GMT)

Way -:- Rawat's current message -:- Tues, Oct 03, 2000 at 15:04:29 (GMT)

__ cq -:- simple gratitude for being alive? -:- Tues, Oct 03, 2000 at 18:20:07 (GMT)

__ Gregg -:- Worshipping His Blandness -:- Tues, Oct 03, 2000 at 17:21:40 (GMT)

__ gerry -:- Hey Way you stole my thunder... -:- Tues, Oct 03, 2000 at 15:11:06 (GMT)

__ __ Way -:- To gerry: synchronisity -:- Tues, Oct 03, 2000 at 15:22:00 (GMT)

Jean-Michel -:- That great quote deserved a special place -:- Tues, Oct 03, 2000 at 08:07:00 (GMT)

steve -:- Why hasn't the plugged been pulled yet? -:- Tues, Oct 03, 2000 at 06:01:11 (GMT)

__ Steve M -:- this is a new steve not Hal nt -:- Tues, Oct 03, 2000 at 09:46:23 (GMT)

steve -:- Why hasn't the plugged been pulled yet? -:- Tues, Oct 03, 2000 at 06:01:11 (GMT)

__ Salam -:- A thing or two on cults and the law. -:- Tues, Oct 03, 2000 at 14:28:00 (GMT)

suchabanana -:- Showing the way to quickly access 'The Yacht' page -:- Tues, Oct 03, 2000 at 04:51:08 (GMT)

__ suchabanana -:- http://www.westportyachtsales.com/ -:- Tues, Oct 03, 2000 at 05:28:35 (GMT)

__ __ suchabanana -:- westportyachtsales.com [brokerage:featured vessels -:- Tues, Oct 03, 2000 at 06:04:16 (GMT)

__ suchabanana -:- Wesport Yachts:Motor Yacht w Pilothouse (112')2000 -:- Tues, Oct 03, 2000 at 05:14:33 (GMT)

Date: Wed, Oct 04, 2000 at 12:51:24 (GMT) From: Steve Quint Email: sequint@home.com To: Everyone Subject: Fat Rawat's Fat Message:

Anybody know or have theories as to how Rawat became fat at puberty from being a slender kid. My idea is that his father castrated him as a kid because he had some foresight. Steve Quint

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Date: Thurs, Oct 05, 2000 at 05:11:18 (GMT) From: Janet of Venice Email: None To: Steve Quint Subject: Fat Rawat's Fat Message:

funny--but if so, where did premlata. hansi, daya and amar come from?????

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Date: Thurs, Oct 05, 2000 at 09:56:31 (GMT) From: Steve Quint Email: sequint@home.com To: Janet of Venice Subject: Fat Rawat's Fat Message:

Please see gerry's message of Oct. 4 7:54:06 and my response of Oct. 4 8:28:42 below in this thread. Raja Ji is the obvious candidate.

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Date: Thurs, Oct 05, 2000 at 00:17:47 (GMT) From: Elan Vital Email: None To: Steve Quint Subject: Judging people based on size Message:

Elan Vital has taken note of your unfounded, negative and anonymous post regarding Maharaji's weight. The very antithisis of a cult, Elan Vital, has a policy of non-discrimination of both rich and fat people. Elan Vital does not believe it is appropriate to judge Maharaji or anyone else, because of an obviously successful lifestyle, nor on one's inability to push away from the table prior to stuffing one's face. Maharaji has stated that knowledge can be practiced by even fat, rich people, as long as one is not attached to either money or food. Plus, being fat and rich is not as easy as it looks. And while we are on the subject, we also wanted to point out that the ashrams, which literally mean 'shelter, and which only existed for a brief period during the DRUG CULTURE, had the added advantage of keeping a whole generation of young people sheltered from getting too fat by requiring that they be vegetarian, and prohibiting steak, pork, and alcoholic beverages. The health advantages of these shelters were noted when Maharaji was recognized for his contributions in sheltering young people from the health perils of obesity by several State Legislatures and the United Nations. In Syncrhonicity, Elan Vital ELAN VITAL: ABSOLUTELY NOT A CULT SINCE 1971

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Date: Wed, Oct 04, 2000 at 14:54:06 (GMT) From: gerry Email: None To: Steve Quint Subject: An excellent theory Message:

if you can get over the small stumbling block of his kids. Rajaji, maybe ???

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Date: Wed, Oct 04, 2000 at 15:45:47 (GMT) From: Steve Quint Email: sequint@home.com To: gerry Subject: An excellent theory Message:

The only other theory I can imagine is some kind of drug abuse, but I don't know what kind of drug puffs a person up like that, and it would have to have started at a relatively young age in India. I stand by what I said in the original message. Steve Quint

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Date: Wed, Oct 04, 2000 at 15:28:42 (GMT) From: Steve Quint Email: sequint@home.com To: gerry Subject: An excellent theory Message:

Great minds think alike! Let's take this further. nt

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Date: Wed, Oct 04, 2000 at 15:39:21 (GMT) From: gerry Email: None To: Steve Quint Subject: Unified FatRat Theory Message:

Hmmm...his lack of balls could very well explain his, well, lack of balls in not addressing the concerns of thousands of his ex-devotees. And of course, this testicular deficiency also accounts for his squeaky voice which never changed. Hey this theory is getting elegent...

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Date: Wed, Oct 04, 2000 at 16:04:11 (GMT) From: Steve Quint Email: sequint@home.com To: gerry Subject: Unified FatRat Theory Message:

And his money is his protection against aggression. It is a kind of prosthesis or compensation for lack of balls. Steve Quint

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Date: Wed, Oct 04, 2000 at 19:37:15 (GMT) From: Lotus Eater Email: None To: Steve Quint Subject: Unified FatRat Theory Message:

As an ex toe kisser, I must protest, surely you realise it is the premie's fault that he is so fat, after all we MADE him sit there for hours and hours when he really should have been playing tennis.

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Date: Wed, Oct 04, 2000 at 20:53:41 (GMT) From: A former 'lover' of the L Email: None To: Lotus Eater Subject: Lesley's protests aside, a summation... Message:

The Unified FatRat Theory 'If this middle-aged castrato soprano has-been-guru-in-drag is gawd, than it's the gawd Amerika deserves...' (a paraphrase)

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Date: Fri, Oct 06, 2000 at 19:30:32 (GMT) From: Lotus Eater Email: None To: A former 'lover' of the L Subject: A good pair of points, sir Message:

True, true, we did give him a lot of encouragement to keep up with the callisthenics!

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Date: Fri, Oct 06, 2000 at 20:27:32 (GMT) From: cq Email: None To: Lotus Eater Subject: Talking of a good pair ... Message:

am I being completely dumb in suggesting to you that 'Lotus Eater' means 'lesbian' in ... well, Europe at least? Not that I mind, of course ... . . . . . . .(but I thought you should know, if you don't already. And if you do ... then doo-doos on me)

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Date: Sat, Oct 07, 2000 at 18:27:36 (GMT) From: Lotus Eater Email: None To: cq Subject: Good grief, no I hadn't heard that, but how Message:

obvious when you think about it, ohmigawd, I'm blushing. No the reference I had apart from the hindu one was sort of Gauguin, Hemmingway, english literature referring to people who left those chilly shores and wasted their life away soaking up the sun on some tropical shore whilst rotting their brains on gin slings! Actually I am very fond of my 'moniker' and would be sad to drop it but I don't want to cause any confusion here. No, dammit, I haven't even got to first base with a woman...but I do have a very gorgeous husband.

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Date: Thurs, Oct 05, 2000 at 00:14:26 (GMT) From: Salam Email: None To: A former 'lover' of the L Subject: Another theory Message:

His mother force fed him, that is why they broke off.

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Date: Thurs, Oct 05, 2000 at 00:27:13 (GMT) From: Roger eDrek Email: drek@oz.net To: Salam Subject: He was breast fed by his mother until when? Message:

Until they had sex together in an outhouse? Puleeeeeze!

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Date: Wed, Oct 04, 2000 at 10:27:40 (GMT) From: Steve Email: the_avenger55@hotmail.com To: Everyone Subject: Justice III Message:

It's 3am here but I often sleep only 3 hours and something's burning inside of me. At this hour my thoughts are more from the subconscious and thus maybe deeper and less censored. I'm thinking about suchabanana's reply to my call for class action and my reply entitled Justice II. There's one thing that I cannot get out of my mind and that is criminal charges against PP for FRAUD and CRIMINAL NEGLIGENCE. By the way, did you notice that I just used the word 'mind'. I think the thing I'm most pissed off about against PP is that he has always, amidst changing themes, denigrated the mind and the word 'mind'. Some examples of uses of the word 'mind': 'The mind is a terrible thing to waste' 'Out of sight, out of mind' 'He's out of his mind' I'm sure there are many more. The point is that this fucking sonofabitch prick has denigrated the most important thing a person has outside of his or her body. The body is what every living being has in common, even the animals, but the mind is what sets humans apart from animals and, more importantly, human beings from assholes. Denigrating the mind has probably been the most important factor in people with the techniques committing suicide, having mental illness, becoming brainwashed zombies, becoming joyless when the so-called teacher talks about joy. A few people I know who have regularly attended PP's events seemed to have escaped this brainwashing and remain happy people. But what proportion of the people that you guys know who continue to attend events would you consider free-thinking, happy people? Feedback please. I've been in psychotherapy for fourteen years getting my mind fixed, largely due to PP's antics. I have been a regular attendee at events for all but five years since I received the techniques in the seventies. The mind is what sets people apart from each other. PP has implied that his mind is the only one to listen to, and everyone else's mind is fucked or unworthy or HINDERING THEIR PROGRESS WITH HIS TEACHINGS. What criminal law would be appropriate to use against a person, son of a living master, and a revealer of the four techniques, perhaps the only one on the planet for 34 years? Fraud, criminal negligence, maybe other charges as well. There should be laws against people brainwashing other people to the brainwashee's detriment, especially MASS MIND MURDERERS. It is true that developed human beings have a thirst for enlightenment, and a person who represents themselves as able to give enlightenment, especially one who reveals the inner lights, sounds and vibrations (by the way has anyone out there tasted 'nectar'. I think the fourth technique is a total fraud and is designed merely to keep people from talking sense) has a duty to follow through with sound advice and information. Just as he delegated the giving out of the techniques to others for many years, he could have delegated the satsang to those, and I'm sure there were some available from 1966 on who were capable, who could talk about knowledge in a sensible and enlightening way. I'm steamed. The guy denigrated the mind because his own mind is a third-rate piece of shit and he was jealous of those around him with better minds. If you can't or won't lift your own mind to greater heights, put down other people's minds and maybe they'll sink to your level and you'll feel better. Fuck this. Criminal charges are the appropriate actions. A Very Pissed Off Steve

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Date: Wed, Oct 04, 2000 at 14:51:24 (GMT) From: Steve Email: None To: Steve Q Subject: Thank you Steve Q... Message:

I hope you understand why I requested that we differentiate between our posts ? I'll post in future as Steve M - perhaps you could use Steve Q ? I apologise for my bumptious tone in the last post but I had actually approached you before , with no response. Cheers Steve

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Date: Wed, Oct 04, 2000 at 12:48:13 (GMT) From: Sir Dave Email: None To: Steve Subject: Insidious hijacking of the English language Message:

There's so many English words and phrases which the non English ignoramus Maharaji has taken and changed the meaning of for his cult followers. Words like, joy, happiness, peace, life, enjoy, mind, breath, participation, synchronise, to name but a few. He even changed the meaning of the Indian word 'Maharaj Ji' to mean God when all it really means is 'Great King', the Ji being an Indian term of respect.

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Date: Wed, Oct 04, 2000 at 13:06:28 (GMT) From: Steve Quint Email: sequint@home.com To: Sir Dave Subject: Insidious hijacking of the English language Message:

Dear Brother Dave: I've been having awake nightmares lately about Rawat's butchering of the English language. Thanks for bringing up this crucial and sad point. I'm almost crying right now about this. I've been spending hours per day the last few weeks with online dictionaries to heal my knowledge of the English language. My favorite is Encarta at http://dictionary.msn.com/ The other one that I sometimes use for a second opinion is Webster's available at http://www.m-w.com/ and other sites. Steve Quint

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Date: Wed, Oct 04, 2000 at 11:37:55 (GMT) From: Stuart Email: sfirth@usa.net To: Steve Subject: Justice III Message:

As Maharji has often said knowledge is not for everyone and you have made it blatantly obvious it is not for you. So stop being so angry and get on with your life. You can either live a content and happy life and then die, or live a frustrated and unhappy live and then die. It seems quite obvious which one you have chosen for yourself. Hey enjoy your time here or not as the case maybe. Best regards Stuart

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Date: Thurs, Oct 05, 2000 at 05:26:17 (GMT) From: Janet of Venice Email: None To: Stuart Subject: Justice III Message:

gee-said like a true, cruel, 'you're in your mind, brother' supremacist. nothing's changed since 1971! how easy life is when you can cut human beings off cold and dismiss them--just like MJ does!! no time to listen, no time to hear, no time to feel, no time to care, no compassion, no humanity,--brutal, summary, selfish, irritable, shallowness. what are you doing here anyway?? are you in need of some attention for yourself, and hurt so much that you can't wait your turn, while somebody else speaks their pain?

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Date: Wed, Oct 04, 2000 at 13:25:05 (GMT) From: Scott T. Email: None To: Stuart Subject: Consideration 101 Message:

Stuart: Please reproduce only that part of the post to which you want to respond, or in the event that you're responding to the entire post in general pick a representative part. Otherwise few of us regularly have time to scroll down to the bottom so we can read what you have to say. BTW, what you have to say is just a variation on an old and completely wrong-headed theme. Anger about the cult and it's devious ways is natural, and this *is* the place to express that anger. 'nuff said. --Scott

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Date: Wed, Oct 04, 2000 at 12:33:01 (GMT) From: Steve Quint Email: sequint@home.com To: Stuart Subject: Justice III Message:

Anger is a very normal and necessary part of life, Stuart. Thanks for your concern. Steve Quint

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Date: Wed, Oct 04, 2000 at 12:20:36 (GMT) From: Sir Dave Email: None To: Stuart Subject: You've no right here Stuart Message:

Stuart; you've no right to lecture people here with your wishy-washy philosophy. Neither have you any right to tell people what they should be feeling or thinking. There is no call for it and it is most impolite and arrogant. Steve has written some very heartfelt paragraphs which are most relevant. That you should belittle them is a clear indication that you have no empathy with his feelings. Perhaps you would prefer that he felt like you; a mindless parrot for a fat master.

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Date: Wed, Oct 04, 2000 at 11:00:07 (GMT) From: Bongo Email: None To: Steve Subject: Justice III Message:

Bad news huh? Still what can you do about it? Anger prevents clarity of thought. You'll just have to sweat it out.That's what I have been doing for years. I find the total brainlessness of knowlege a relief. But what M. has forgotten to tell his minions is that they should actively cultivate clarity of thought with reference to the 'external world'. All this 'its inside you' stuff is true enough, but what about the relationship between what is inside and what is outside? There's a point Mr Rawat doesn't mention. Judging by his talking in Harrogate he has never found it neccessary to pursue a line of thought more than two stages. Thereafter he simply leaps onto one of many habitual prepared high vantage points-and we all laugh, and it's all ok. I am heading into advanced middle age and I hope I can rescue my clarity. It aint easy when your brain hasn't got the mobitlity of youth, when knowledge helped it, oh so gently, to sleep. Still you never know, who knows what the outcome will be for such brains in arrested development. None of this has ever happened before.

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Date: Wed, Oct 04, 2000 at 19:32:28 (GMT) From: cq Email: None To: Bongo Subject: Well said there, Bongo. Whoever thought that the Message:

'Knowledge' would, in fact, turn out to imply the word's opposite. 'Arrested development' is what it's really about, especially if you have to be financially/socially/psychologically self-reliant in the real world. Of course, the REAL world is not what premie-hood is (or ever was) all about. The real world? Has any premie ever asked M about it? And what was his reply?

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Date: Thurs, Oct 05, 2000 at 02:51:56 (GMT) From: Roger eDrek Email: drek@oz.net To: cq Subject: good points, Steve Q. and cq Message:

arrested development and the concept of Maharaji really hijacking our most precious asset and turning it into a liability where one doesn't trust one's self because of a belief in a super self that one has been sold by Rawat. Also, Stuart's little thing about 'moving on' and all that is really the same kind of hijacking. It's the invalidating of one's current and present experience in the hopes of a higher spiritual state. And maybe there is a higher spiritual state, but it's probably in the here and now and it probably still exists regardless of whether you are thinking, not thinking, or pissed off or not.

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Date: Wed, Oct 04, 2000 at 09:37:02 (GMT) From: sam Email: None To: Everyone Subject: too late for some? Message:

Thinking about some of the still and long devoted prems I know, moving into their fifties, I' ve wondered if they'd really be better with an open opinion of m. I wonder what they'd have left in their lives to go back to. Like someone who's been on cortisone or another dependent drug for too long. I guess most would say 'truth is always best', but I really wonder when I think of some.

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Date: Thurs, Oct 05, 2000 at 03:10:12 (GMT) From: Tonette Email: None To: sam Subject: It's never to late!!!!!! nt Message:

nt

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Date: Wed, Oct 04, 2000 at 20:35:16 (GMT) From: poul Email: None To: sam Subject: too late for some? Message:

I think your feelings are right and it is very sad, someone i know for the last 25 years i do not dare to say anything to,i think he will kill himself and i cant be the one hwo tell him ,,,dont i have to think twice before i do.???????? Poul

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Date: Wed, Oct 04, 2000 at 19:21:51 (GMT) From: Lotus Eater Email: None To: sam Subject: too late for some? Message:

As a long termer, I felt like that. The first post I made on this forum, I expressed the horror I felt at the nightmare journey of the slow disintegration of such a dearly loved belief. This slow disintegration had already happened, and the thing that made the difference for me was INFORMATION and SUPPORT. After a few weeks reading here on this site, realising I was in a cult, I was over the worst and haven't looked back. As the first outspoken ex in my particular circle of friends, I know perfectly well that I wouldn't have said anything if I hadn't realised how much good it had done me to face up to it, and in my case, I really didn't any longer have any leeway, I had to find out, it was driving me nuts. What brought me to this state? Things happen in a life, don't they. No-one is immune, and as we age, they are going to be happening to all of us. When you are faced with a life threatening disease you need to be present and able to learn and grow, not react like a scared kid asking Daddy for another bedtime story to take your mind off your fear, especially when it turns out 'Daddy' isn't really 'Daddy'. That can be a bit of a problem when you are relying on him at the 'business end' of life. The sadness and loss that I feel at this stripping away of my illusions has not harmed me, quite the reverse. I am far more subject to unfettered bursts of happiness, creativity, fun and companionship, than I can remember for a long long long time. IMO, not to have had this time of living, free of that bloody triangle would have been the genuine tragedy. Lesley

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Date: Thurs, Oct 05, 2000 at 10:53:51 (GMT) From: sam Email: - To: Lotus Eater Subject: too late for some? Message:

yes! After the initial shock, I have experienced those same 'magical' highs that I put down to k. And it's so great to know it is coming from me,as I'm supposed to be naturally and not from someone I can never contact. I think a lot of us got into k (me included) as a teen who was going through all the natural hormone, finding yourself, drug experimenting for some, and as I came out the other side I gave the credit to m ands k. But really one comes out of any teen experience with a certain amount of learning and moves on. I now feel I was stunted by giving credit to m only. Other people(friends) developed more by trusting and learning from the life experience than I did by subjucating(sp) all thought. A lot of us were caught at a vulnerable time in our lives, be it age or circumstance. I feel a bit like I've been frozen for 20 odd years and just starting agaijn . feels good!

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Date: Wed, Oct 04, 2000 at 12:52:51 (GMT) From: Sir Dave Email: None To: sam Subject: too late for some? Message:

I heard from a premie about an old friend of mine who is still a premie and he sounds like he's in a pretty bad state. Certainly for him, long term adherence to the cult has done him no good at all. How many people there must be who have wasted decades following an empty promise? I think the sooner the carpet is pulled away, the better. Once out of the cult and cult mindset and beliefs, people soon start thinking for themselves again.

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Date: Thurs, Oct 05, 2000 at 11:09:29 (GMT) From: Bongo Email: None To: Sir Dave Subject: too late for some? Message:

'Our Lord's the superior power in person I bow down before such a wonderful lord' !!! I am shocked at the memory. How embarrassing. This was a part of my life for years and years. I can only assume I had lost my use of the English language. How did it happen? 'A man hears what he wants to hear and disregards the rest' I can still smell the carpet as I did pranam! Wow! Let it all playback and lets see what else is in there.It makes me laugh now. Love to all.

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Date: Thurs, Oct 05, 2000 at 11:08:53 (GMT) From: sam Email: - To: Sir Dave Subject: sir dave, how true Message:

A SUPER premie actually started me on the path to freedom. I got him into k 25 years or so ago and pushed and pushed until he got k - then broke his heart and where did he go for comfort? Now his KIDS, ex-wife and HIS OWN LIFE come a sad second to m. This person keeps his car spotless - not for him or the family- but incase the LORD may ever need to use it. I wont go into detail here, but I think m can make people socially disfunctional and they embrace it. I've seen it happen in this case but dont want to dwell on all the details. I wish something or someone could pull the carpet on the entrenched and mindless believers.

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Date: Wed, Oct 04, 2000 at 06:24:32 (GMT) From: Steve Email: the_avenger55@hotmail.com To: Everyone Subject: Justice II Message:

To suchabanana: What's with the name? I think you deserve better. Thanks for the message re legal options. I happen to live in Canada and it's a common belief up here that the U.S. is a litigious country, vastly more so than Canada. One lawyer who I asked about litigation in this context about three years ago replied simply 'You can't sue your guru'. However, we hear stories about people in the U.S. who win $1,000,000 from MacDonald's for spilling coffee on themselves and claiming they were injured because the coffee was hotter that it supposedly should have been. If this kind of case can be won in the U.S., the mind boggles at how trivial a case has to be to be thrown out as frivolous. I'm not a lawyer (I happen to be an accountant). I have taken a couple of courses in law at university and like to think that I have some feeling at least for what kind of questions to ask when talking to a lawyer and a basic understanding of legal thinking. I think the bottom line here is that there is nothing else like PP's knowledge where the student becomes as dependent as an adult as a baby would be towards a mother. There are laws concerning physical abuse of children, but I'm not aware of any concerning mental or emotional abuse. That being the case, how could one possibly expect laws about how a guru treats his students. As I mentioned in my earlier message entitled 'Justice', if the courts of the land can't help, one must rely on God for meting out justice. It's the thought that counts. Thanks Steve If there were any basis for a lawsuit in this context I would think it would relate to

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Date: Wed, Oct 04, 2000 at 19:47:19 (GMT) From: Joe Email: None To: Steve Subject: Justice II Message:

Yeah, I guess the US is a litigious society, but those big awards for negligence due to hot coffee and the like, while greatly blown up in the press, are extremely exceptional, and almost always the awards are greatly reduced on appeal. The 'tort reform' people who don't want big corporations like Firestone and Ford, who knowingly produce products that kill and injure people. You know, it's bad for business. But the legal system is not a very good place to resolve disputes. Anybody can sue anybody, so of course you could sue Maharaji if you wanted to. But what, exactly are your damages and who caused them. Here is the problem as I see it in using the courts to get some kind of justice against Prem Pal Singh Rawat: To most people in the world, most of us appear to have freely chosen to join a somewhat bizarre religion when we were young, we foolishly became very devoted to it for whatever time we were, and then we discovered it was not for us, and not what we had believed it was, and we left. Unless something specifically damaging was done to you, like sexual abuse or something, it would be very hard to prove much more. People who understand about cults know that this wasn't just a matter of choice, but that's really hard to prove objectively. So, really, it appears we chose to join and we chose to leave. At least, I think, that's how the courts would see it, and Maharaji is running a religion, and there are all kinds of weird religions, and the courts aren't about to get into religious beliefs.

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Date: Thurs, Oct 05, 2000 at 15:16:55 (GMT) From: Way Email: None To: Joe Subject: les manipulations mentales Message:

Both Joe and Such seem to think, given the current state of American jurisprudence, that gurus are basically immune to lawsuit unless they actually break tax laws or abuse someone sexually, or some other such blatant transgression. However, the French are currently attempting to address the issue of brainwashing or deceiving people, an obviously more nebulous subject matter, but nevertheless, one that has obvious and sometimes severe consequences. They have coined the new term 'les manipulations mentales', and are attempting to formulate some controls. It is announced on the French ex-premie forum that an upcoming national television program will be discussing this issue. Remember that France has recently seen within its own small borders the kind of cult where mass suicide occurs. I forget the name of the cult but suicides happened in France, Switzerland, and Canada. The French have documented nearly 200 cults in their country, Elan Vital among them. Whatever success happens there should be noted here. I suppose that the first amendment to the American constitution will forever protect any Joe Blow's right to proclaim himself to be God's gift to humanity, but the kind of legal protection that Mr. Rawat has purchased for himself is just one more example of how our laws actually enable and protect the bad guys.

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Date: Thurs, Oct 05, 2000 at 17:59:38 (GMT) From: Joe Email: None To: Way Subject: Lawsuits Message:

Way, I know for a fact that Elan Vital and Maharaji have been sued on a number of occasions and they have paid damages to settle some claims. For example, I recall a case in Florida in which an under-aged girl was given knowledge by some Mahatma, had some kind of a nervous breakdown or something, and her parents sued. That claim was settled. I was working at Elan Vital Headquarters at the time, and I recall discussing it with Elan Vital lawyers. Note also that Elan Vital now says it has a STRICT policy that people under 18 can't receive knowledge. Wonder why? Apparently, Elan Vital and Maharaji are less concerned with these people experiencing the so-beautiful peace and love inside of them, than they are with being sued. Joe

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Date: Thurs, Oct 05, 2000 at 06:07:35 (GMT) From: Janet of Venice Email: None To: Joe, Steve Q and all Subject: Justice II Message:

I have pondered the thought of a class action suit that we could bring, ourselves, on behalf of all the premies. they don't have to be present in the courtroom to be represented, to win or be awarded. damages?? psychiatric diagnoses, that did not exist until after time in the cult.My father spent 50,000 dollars to try and undo the warping that being in DLM did to me. I had my toddler son taken from me for 16 years. the boy was diagnosed schizophrenic at 19 when he freely chattered away about pictures talking to him and hearing everyone's thoughts and seeing their auras. He's been hospialized three times, committed once (by me) and now under my conservatorship and payeeship. I've been hosptalized twice myself for profound depression. We are both on psychiatric meds for these states of mind. steve Q obviously can stand with me, in this category. who else can we sue on behalf of? we the plaintiffs could demand the dissolution of MJ's stinking excess and ask the court to partition it up as repayment to those who suffered. in a class action suit, all who meet the criteria get an award, not just those who go to court. racketeering--all the fundraising hidden behind numerous front and shell corporations, paying each other but actually all going into personal luxuries, not towards any humanitarian work for the world, nor for the members themselves. the maharishi was sued by an ex follower, who charged that all the tuition he spent at maharishi university did not result in his learning 'yogic flying' 'stopping of the ageing process','enlightenment' and a list of all the other promises maharishi made him when he joined. the jury saw it his way. he won. maharishi had to pay him several hundred $K in damages. so there is a precedent now. in law, that's all they have to see. it was breach of contract. I believe we can do it. but it will have to name each of the shell holders of his assetts as codefendants, and our lawyer(s) will have to be steeped in our bizarre culture and familiarized with the various outrages we endured--and be very savvy about going for the jugular. a ferinstance-- the malibu home is held in someone else's name. where does this person live? if they are the owner of the house, do they ever live in it? have they ever? will they ever? why did they put their name to it if they live in conspicuously modest housing themselves?. were they asked to do it? by whom?for what reason? if it is sold, what will the money go to? to whom? another ferinstance. supposedly, MJ's kids have drug habits. cocaine,lets say. by DEA drug laws, if such a substance is found on the premises of a place, the DEA can arrest all present AND seize ALL of the assetts of the arrestees, on the premises, then and there, and never return them, regardless of the outcome of the case. moneylaundering. racketeering. drug trafficking. breach of contract. slavery at DECA and all such 'service'. as i've said elsewhere: Blow the roof off the sucker.

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Date: Wed, Oct 04, 2000 at 19:51:47 (GMT) From: cq Email: None To: Joe Subject: The IRS might - they grant EV 'church' status (nt) Message:

dong

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Date: Wed, Oct 04, 2000 at 20:08:08 (GMT) From: Joe Email: None To: cq Subject: Yeah, but that's up to the IRS (nt) Message:

nt

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Date: Wed, Oct 04, 2000 at 20:14:44 (GMT) From: cq Email: None To: Joe Subject: I thought diddling the IRS was a criminal offense? Message:

That could end up in court, couldn't it? (assuming somebody brings it to their attention) Anyone out there brought it to the IRS's attention yet? Like, I thought, ... maybe a long-standing ex, (the kind of ex who brought THIS site together perhaps?) should have the privilege of spilling the beans - that's why I (for one) haven't mentioned it to the IRS yet. Anyone?

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Date: Wed, Oct 04, 2000 at 10:27:48 (GMT) From: Hal/Steve Email: None To: Steve Subject: Excuse me- Ahoy there! steve Message:

Perhaps with all your talking you don't find time to listen. I asked you in a thread just below why you come on here and just start posting as Steve when if you read on this very page you would notice that I am already posting as Steve which is my real name. I'll give you the benefit of the doubt and not accuse you of lack of etiquette. Perhaps you have no interest in communication and just need to sound off with no intro to who you are. Who the hell are you anyway? What's your real name ? I'm Steve Mulley resident in Portugal.

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Date: Wed, Oct 04, 2000 at 10:40:06 (GMT) From: Steve Email: the_avenger@hotmail.com To: Hal/Steve Subject: Excuse me- Ahoy there! steve Message:

Steve is my real name. In which message did you ask me to stop posting using Steve, my real name? I didn't see it. Steve is a common first name. I'm have no previous experience with bulleting boards. If there's some etiquette or rule I'm breaking by using my real first name please patiently explain it to me. I'm a very good listener but you haven't talked to me yet in a civil and decent way. Please try. Steve Quint

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Date: Wed, Oct 04, 2000 at 13:40:58 (GMT) From: Jim Email: None To: Steve Subject: It's just common sense, isn't it? Message:

Steve (earlier 'Hal') was already posting as 'Steve' so please just qualify your name somehow.

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Date: Wed, Oct 04, 2000 at 11:25:23 (GMT) From: Salam Email: None To: Steve Subject: notice. Message:

__ steve -:- The wristwatch collection -:- Mon, Oct 02, 2000 at 21:08:48 __ __ Steve -:- If you read the page you'd notice steve... -:- Tues, Oct 03, 2000 at 02:56:18 'that I've already posted many times as Steve. This could get confusing. Either you could put an initial after your name or I could? Steve Mulley.'

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Date: Wed, Oct 04, 2000 at 09:43:13 (GMT) From: sam Email: - To: all Subject: a law against misrepresenting yourself as god (nt Message:

maybe he'd have to prove it.

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Date: Wed, Oct 04, 2000 at 06:09:09 (GMT) From: buzz Email: None To: all premies visiting this Subject: yout thought and feelings Message:

come on all you premies lurking behind your computers,have you nothing to say in defence of your lord!!??

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Date: Wed, Oct 04, 2000 at 04:44:38 (GMT) From: la-ex Email: None To: Everyone Subject: anyone know Hilly Zeitlin?an ex-p,now deprogramer Message:

Does anyone remember Hilly Zeitlin?He lived in the Syracuse NY area in the 70's and then suddenly left.He returned and deprogrammed his girlfriend Joanie Ross, and then started a career as a deprogrammer. I would be interested in re-connecting with him. I also think he might have LOTS of info on m that he would share.

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Date: Thurs, Oct 05, 2000 at 06:23:14 (GMT) From: Janet of Venice Email: None To: la-ex Subject: anyone know Hilly Zeitlin?an ex-p,now deprogramer Message:

my sister took me to meet hilly in san fransisco in the autumn of 1982. hilly had been general secretary of the san fran ashram, and was called to the residence to do service. what he witnessed up there utterly revolted,repulsed him, and snapped him wide awake. he quit and walked out. he tried to tell me of the gross things he saw Mj doing up there. i was fresh out of 9 months of psychiatric behavior mod and did not want to listen. what i wouldnt hear then, i would be hungry to hear, now. i just sent him an email, inviting him over here, to read and join the dicussion.

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Date: Wed, Oct 04, 2000 at 04:57:09 (GMT) From: Monmot Email: None To: la-ex Subject: Check this out... Message:

Just came in from class and am a bit wired, so I thought I'd do a search. I came up with: http://www.thechangeworks.com/wkshps/hilly.html This Hillel Zeitlin is an LCSW-C. Can't be too many Hilly Zeitlins floating around out there. He practices a combo of NLP and Ericksonian Hypnotherapy, deprogramming tools if ever I heard of them.

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Date: Wed, Oct 04, 2000 at 11:53:33 (GMT) From: Salam Email: None To: Monmot Subject: Check this out... Message:

From: http://www.refocus.org/history.html A History of FOCUS and reFOCUS In 1982, a group of former cult members conferred by phone about forming a support network for people who had experiences in controlling, totalistic groups, cults or relationships. At the time, those individuals felt ex-members had specific needs that were not being addressed by CAN (Cult Awareness Network). CAN consisted mainly of parents of present and former cult members. The individuals who wanted to form a support network felt that CAN, while having pure motives and intentions, tended not to be sensitive to recovery issues of former cult members. They felt strongly there was a need for a support network run by ex-members for ex-members in which we could support each other through the recovery process, be a resource to those just exiting destructive groups and relationships and, at the same time, be sensitive to recovery issues. A group of individuals met at the home of Hope Evans in Dallas, TX to form such a network. Some of the persons at that initial meeting were David Clark, Vanessa Weber, Kathy Hansen, John Hulla, Larry Bisman, Bob Brandyberry, Lynn Schwartz, Hilly Zeitlin, Ian and Marie Haworth. 20 to 1 he is your man.

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Date: Wed, Oct 04, 2000 at 15:21:09 (GMT) From: gerry Email: None To: Salam Subject: Hilly has a website (Billy was a mountain) Message:

Here's a link to Hilly's Website

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Date: Wed, Oct 04, 2000 at 23:29:06 (GMT) From: Salam Email: None To: gerry Subject: Hilly has a website (Billy was a mountain) Message:

That is the same link that Monmet put??????

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Date: Wed, Oct 04, 2000 at 03:57:38 (GMT) From: Larkin Email: None To: Everyone Subject: All Hail to the Lord with the 100 ft yacht! Message:

Well I could have signed up with that sweet Mararishi a there-you-go mantra all yours for my own ok, so the charlatan's rolling in money but at least they don't seat the old flake on a throne.. or - hey! - a sex crazy, bright orange Rajneeshi a bucolic frolic conclusion foregone just bold day-glo brothers and hippie-chick honeys spreading fear and revulsion throughout Oregon.. Maharaji, Maharaji, dear video exporter so sorry you had us like lambs to the slaughter my Christ - did we really deserve what we got when we fell for the fraud with the 100 ft yacht? Or I could have had Koresh beside me to guide me he'd teach me at least how to fire a gun right no matter Mount Carmel so soon became charnel just give me the prophet who'll set things alight.. Applewhite - full of shite? - who cares, he will hide me meditation, castration? - I won't reason why I've no earthly need for things fleshly or carnal now Marshall is taking us up to the sky.. Maharaji, Maharaji, dear satellite saviour hope you made use of the money we gave yer.. my Christ - did we really deserve what we got from a boring old twat with a 100 ft yacht? They say that there's bliss to be had in the orient with Ashokohara, life's really a gas with forty-odd thousand devotees behind him the jail-term will surely and painlessly pass.. falun gong, so I hear, is inciting much foment (forget the cold war - this could damage our trade) they’ve even a leader, if someone can find him and once we've made contact the dude's got it made.. Maharaji, Maharaji, Our satellite saddhu so sick that you had us, so sorry we had you my Christ - did we really deserve what we got to be cloned by the clown with the 100 ft yacht? Be Catholic, go Baptist, whate'er makes your day, now go sing Hare Krishna if that turns you on just be warned: every guru will gorge like a gannet and pull out the carpet you're walking upon Jim Jones had his day and, indeed, had his way, now taught 'poison is truth' as it e'er more shall be, oh 'coz cults are a blight on the face of the planet but they'll never again make a monkey of me, oh… Maharaji, Maharaji, O bullshit redeemer so barely cogniscient, yet good enough schemer my Christ - did we really deserve all we got when we scrubbed for the tub with the 100-ft yacht..?

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Date: Wed, Oct 04, 2000 at 19:39:03 (GMT) From: cq Email: None To: Larkin Subject: what's the tune? (it really helps, y'know) nt Message:

doremifasolati ...

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Date: Thurs, Oct 05, 2000 at 16:05:09 (GMT) From: Larkin Email: None To: cq Subject: It hasn't got one, but... Message:

..the 6/8 rhythm would fit a few Irish jigs ('Oh, what would you do if the kettle boiled over..?' etc.) 'Dee-diddly-diddly-diddly-diddly diddly-diddly-diddly-dum...'

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Date: Wed, Oct 04, 2000 at 14:34:36 (GMT) From: Loaf Email: None To: Larkin Subject: Hurrah !!! (NT) Message:

what you are looking for is within you !!

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Date: Wed, Oct 04, 2000 at 03:03:57 (GMT) From: suchabanana Email: None To: Everyone Subject: ATTN: r.e. LAWSUITS, AND OTHER RECOURSE, ACTION!!! Message:

Options: I.) Class Action Suit (or other Civil and/or Criminal Lawsuits) [advisory disclaimer: I am not providing legal counsel here] Folks, Let's really look at this matter logically and sensibly. Follow me patiently here, please: 1. First, in order to have a lawsuit of any kind, laws and statutes have to have been broken. You have to show probable evidentiary cause to file the suit -- so it's not perceived as frivolous and dismissed outright. Second, there has to be a plaintiff and a defendant. You have to prove accountability, deliberate or willful intent/motive or complicity, resultant harm or losses, and computation of actual damages (or statutory, where applicable). Third, there has to be jurisdiction of an applicable court. Fourth, the suit has to comply with any prevailing statute of limitations (e.g. can't exceed X # years ex post facto (after the fact), in many cases). 2. Litigants: Who are obvious potential legitimate plaintiffs in any foreseeable future lawsuits against Prem Rawat, his authorized representatives or agents, or EVI (aka DLM)? --A. the alleged child abuse victims of Jagdeo. UK apparently has no such binding criminal statutes of time limitations (unlike US, where civil statutes might still apply, however). This matter has foreseeable prospects, if all the victims are willing to cooperate collectively and come forward to testify. Jagdeo could be tried in absentia (in India); no problem. Similarly, need to prove that DLM, its representatives, and/or Rawat were made aware of these crimes, and did nothing to resolve or rectify the situation satisfactorily, including making amends to the victims. Judging from Susan's letter and the related info, this is probably a strong compelling argument, if there is multiple witness corroboration (including US schoolteachers' affidavits or sworn depositions). DLM reps would probably have to be issued subpoenas (I don't think extraterritorial extradition applies here). Need to find US victims willing to come forward, too. --B. rape/sexual assault victims of mahatmas/instructors, etc. [same as above] Such lawsuits could be filed in Canada, the United States, and Great Britain, separately. --C. litigant sovereign nations (and their respective states/provinces) - if any laws have have been broken by Rawat, EVI/DLM, or its representatives. Most probable case scenario: alleged tax evasion or complicity to evade taxes. For instance, were limited liability corps. (e.g. Seva or Premo Marine) set up to inure personal material benefit to Mr. Rawat or others, and if so, was this done with any intent to evade pertinent governmental taxes? Burden of proof probably falls on the plaintiff/litigant here. Could be US government (IRS) federal attorney, or other sovereign nations, governments and their respective agencies. State of California, etc. Given the preponderance of governmental authority and means, potentially a problem for Mr. Rawat and EVI internationally. Additionally, were any representatives or employees of Mr. Rawat, EVI (aka DLM), or its agents directed to take any unlawful, dishonest, or otherwise unethical actions (includes accountants and attorneys) which might tend to circumvent or violate applicable tax laws? Here, based on the example of the Dettmers' relayed conversation today, one might surmise that clever preemptory action was taken (i.e. confidentiality or severance agreements) to prevent any inadvertent leaking of incriminating information. However, a court with jurisdiction may always subpoena uncooperative witnesses within their district of jurisdiction. Advisable here, then, to find former employees with access to financial records. -- D. all individual non-profit financial contributors to EVI/DLM: were any personal monies/funds donated under false representations, assumptions and/or assurances by Mr. Rawat, EVI/DLM, or its agents/representatives? Were donations intended for the non-profit corp. EVI/DLM diverted to other outside entities, or improperly for the personal benefit of Mr. Rawat and/or others? Were donated funds (and resultant assets) diverted for the direct personal benefit of Mr. Rawat and others for the direct or indirect purposes of avoiding income taxes? Were employees of EVI/DLM or its agents party to these violations? Need for witnesses, evidence, and/or enough circumstantial evidence to interest the IRS (USA) and similar governmental tax agencies in other countries, or their respective states and provinces. Given the many contributors to EVI/DLM, potential seen for possible multi-national litigation. --E. Ashram residents -- were any DLM ashram residents directed to collect, convey, or report monies accruing to Mr. Rawat, DLM, or its agents, in any way in violation with prevailing laws? --F. other claimants or plaintiffs? 3. Award of Damages: This is where the relayed communications with Mr. Michael Dettmers are most revealing. Even a brief review of the Seva Corp. records indicates that a clever and concerted effort was made to limit the liability of EVI as an organization (and perhaps incidentally provide some personal immunity for Mr. Rawat himself and his cohorts), by creating separate legal entities actually owning the substantial assets accumulated under the alleged auspices of DLM/EVI and its related services, via sales and substantial material donations to the one-time Lord of the Universe. Considering Mr. Dettmer's alleged admitted severance and confidentiality agreement (per the 10/3/00 posting on the ex-premie.org website), therefore, it would not be surprising if the directors/officers of these alleged ex officio affiliate entities did not likewise also have similar remunerative confidential arrangements with EVI -- and also pertaining to the eventual disbursement of any corporate assets of Seva Corp. and Premo Marine. Accordingly, if financial judgments are won directly against EVI/DLM, it would appear that the alleged substantial overall assets obtained via the organization may actually be sheltered within other protected entities --thereby potentially limiting EVI's own liability and the collection of actual monetary damages. Similarly, the numerous corporate assets directly utilized by Mr. Rawat (comprising tens of millions of US dollars in material assets) are apparently not owned by Mr. Rawat himself. Need to prove complicity or organization for purposes of tax evasion, or collection of debts, or for other unlawful purposes, etc. In the USA, burden of proof is upon the litigant, unless the federal government takes an active role in such investigations and discoveries. Ergo: Mr Dettmers' assessment of Mr. Rawat's legal team's clever maneuvers and precautions may be credible. Hence, by all means, if prudent (and if desirable) then pursue all legal avenues and recourse in all nations and localities possible. II. Additional Options Available, too: Purposes: 1. To advise/warn potential future cult recruits/aspirants. 2. To provide information on-line and to the various media regarding alleged cult activities and abuses. 3. To provide a coordinated or linked network of support, counselling, legal advice, open feedback, inspiration and positive encouragement, and related services to those already involved or affected in the past. Use all available media: network and brainstorm with others to collectively notify and affect all countries and localities where Rawat and EVI and its affiliates operate (or intend to operate). Contact and utilize any and all free press and broadcasting access. Conduct coordinated media campaigns. Create network of linked websites with respective roles. Thank you for your attention to this matter. Peace, suchabanana

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Date: Thurs, Oct 05, 2000 at 06:43:48 (GMT) From: Janet of Venice Email: None To: suchabanana Subject: ATTN: r.e. LAWSUITS, AND OTHER RECOURSE, ACTION!!! Message:

excellently thought out. do both. media and legal. and internet.i wonder if MJ is getting the boat in order to flee prosecution?? take to the high seas in international waters to evade the law?? how long could he hold out do you suppose? become like Voyager and drift from port to obscure port, scrounging supplies anonymously? one good storm and.....'in the river of bondage to maya, all are swept out to sea, all are sinking in the depths of the sea.,...guru's ship is the holy name,guru's boat is the holy namein seconds he has set us freejai devjai satgurudev' *******'if a man is drowning, and you come out to save him and he tries to pull you in too,you give him two pushes under'

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Date: Wed, Oct 04, 2000 at 15:04:14 (GMT) From: Way Email: None To: suchabanana Subject: about lawsuits Message:

such, Are you aware of the case in the late 90's against Swami Kriyananda of the Ananda community, an off-shoot of Yogananda's Self-Realization Fellowship? Donald Walters, aka Swami Kriyananda, was sued by a former female follower. Six or seven other females provided supporting evidence. Mr. Walters had sex with all seven women, not a crime. But the law was able to accept testimony that these women were following Mr. Walters as a swami, and the sex was therefore psychologically injurious to the claimant. She was awarded a million dollars, I believe. The two lawyers in that case specialize in cult cases. If any ex-premies are serious about bringing Rawat to some kind of justice, these particular lawyers may be helpful. The whole sordid story, including the transcripts from the case, is available at the website 'the Ananda Awareness Network.'

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Date: Wed, Oct 04, 2000 at 04:01:24 (GMT) From: Roger eDrek Email: drek@oz.net To: suchabanana Subject: Don't forget RICO, sucha Message:

In the U.S. there is the federal and the state Racketeer-Influenced and Corrupt Organization (RICO) statutes that extend statute of limitations for on-going criminal enterprises. The little bean spilled by Dettmers where Bob Jacobs of Milbank Tweed has probably devised a bulletproof set of books and shell corporations to help Rawat and Company avoid taxation problems does not come as a big surprise. Jacobs' vitae is quite impressive going way back to the good old boys in smoke filled backrooms. It's not surprising at all that Elan Vital has passed IRS audits and Maharaji lives like a Colombian Narco-trafficante with a Get-Out-Of-Jail-Free card. We don't have much at all. Who the hell are we? We are a bunch of little people who cannot afford the likes of Milbank Tweed et al to protect our ill gotten gains. Maharaji and Company know that we don't have much of a hand to play. Too time has passed. Too many honchos like Dettmers have been bought off. These people are the only chance we have of sticking it to Rawat while he lounges on his 7 million dollar yacht after flying to a Caribbean airport in his 25 million dollar G4 from his 30 plus million dollar dilapidated home in the poor section of Malibu, California with his 25 car garage filled with Mercedes and Rolls Royces. Oh, yeah, Maharaji is your humanitarian leader! No, sorry, that should be Master! And for every Master there are the Slaves! Fulfillment, yeah, sure you and your cronies, Rawat! So, we are the little people. Always have been and always will be. The only possibility of prosecution would have to be under the RICO statutes. Let me say that name again, Racketeer-Influenced and Corrupt Organization. I love that - Racketeer, Corrupt Organization. Don't ya think that Maharaji and Company were really a bunch of racketeers just like any other street gang pulling a scam like bunko, flim flam. Consider all the suitcases full of cash. Consider the spiriting away Fakiranand to avoid criminal prosecution. All the perverted Mahatmas and Jagdeo. And these are really the tip of the ice berg. You've got to know that the bulk of it is all underwater sitting in all the income tax avoidance. And, I gotta think that Dettmers knows about some of that. Those severance agreements authored by Bob Jacobs are buying more than just Dettmers knowledge of the secret formula to the old time feel-real-good snake oil elixir that Maharaji peddled. No, I'd say that the head of a 100 million dollar Swiss based foundation might, just might, have knowledge of felonious activities. I'm just speculating, of course. Basically I think that we all know by now that all along there was a huge tax avoidance scam going on. Whether we can prove it or not and whether they got one of the countries slickest New York City lawyers to put the package together doesn't really change what is really just simple and common knowledge. Whether we can ever do anything to knock Humpty Dumpty off of his throne we'll never know. In fact, it's very unlikely. A serious government investigation would cost hundreds of thousand, if not millions of dollars. And because Bob Jacobs probably did a real good job the prosecutors might even know that Maharaji is guilty, but they would not go through with the case because conviction might be unlikely. Or Bob Jacobs might have left a little gimme in the system that he lets the investigators catch and then they plead a deal pay a pittance and end of story. Me, I can't even balance my checkbook. What can I hope for? Nothing much, but I think that I get the satisfaction of knowing that even if we were to shut down all the anti-Maharaji websites tomorrow that Maharaji knows that we know and a lot of other people also know. He can run, but he can't hide. Maharaji is nothing but a cheesy little two-bit uneducated egotistical racketeer influencing a very corrupt organization of bought-off and paid for yes men who have absolutely no respect for themselves because they will work for that organization for years and years long after they know that real people are getting hurt because the whole thing is corrupt and a sham. However, in the end we can almost say that we have made all the forests of the earth into paper and we have turned all the oceans into ink and we have written of the disgrace of Guru Maharaji - the Lord of the Universe. We win, you selfish sick greedy bastard!

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Date: Wed, Oct 04, 2000 at 19:06:26 (GMT) From: suchabanana Email: None To: Roger eDrek and JM Subject: suits; pr campaign; demo/teach K. free on internet Message:

Dear Roger and Jean-Michel et al: Lawsuits: RICO is a possibility, also Way's point, too (e.g. EVI/DLM r.e. Trivinanand and any others of his ilk in related civil suits for punitive damages; Catholic church in Chicago has paid damages in civil suits to kids molested many years ago by priests). But I think EVI may have limited its full liability -- that is, on collecting large awards of damages via the Seva stuff, where the main assets are registered. Where's the documentation on Seva's Articles of Incorporation, Bylaws, any Annual Reports, list of owners? It should be public record, too. If it ties back to EVI or M. there, then there's the link. Also, the G-4 plane should be tied to EVI, because it was EVI that raised the money -- misrepresentation angle, possible fraud? Didn't the Lear get sold to help defray the costs, too? That ties in directly to EVI. Find some ex-insiders who know the mechanics of any financial schemes. Frankly, except for the sex abuse victims, I think a concerted PR campaign is the easiest and cheapest way to go overall, especially in the US, Canada, and Europe (and even India), other than getting the US feds to check out any alleged tax scam. Governments want their taxes -- and they don't take tax evasion lightly in the US, especially. Organized Public Relations/Media Campaign: Problem is also: exes are basically unorganized as a group. I mean, it's hard to get people to even agree on lots of stuff on this site. If there were a little informal public relations committee or a committee of correspondence that did a media blitz -- some 'Common Sense', who knows? The mass media thrives on 'controversy!' Hypothetically, m. doesn't even have to get nabbed on legal stuff. Look what the pie incident did -- on the cover of major newspapers, into the big mags. The Holy family breakup -- same thing. Millenium '73 -- they interrupted national tv broadcasts to show m. Mass media sharking is bigger business and more widespread now than ever. Just the docs posted on this site alone are more than an eyeful for any investigative reporter with a brain! The discrepancies in the official p.r. and presentation of M. by the org and himself from the 70's to the present are another glaring subject. The cult extremes -- the personal worship, the victims, the trappings, the mega-rich lifestyle, etc. etc. -- tv and the print media absolutely love this kind of stuff. It's what sells their products -- enquiring minds want to know. Someone should put together a comprehensive media package (with all the goodies) that gets distributed in every country where EVI operates, and in cities where any big event is scheduled -- advance promo. Reporters don't have time to wade throught gazillions of docs, so you pick the gnarliest stuff thats gets their immediate attention and interest -- the crown mala photos vs. the business suit, darshan line, yacht info and photo, planes w/ photos, mansion layut and photos, sex abuse victim accounts, the schoolteacher Jagdeo accounts, the shelter corps docs (Seva and Premo Marine), horror accounts of exes, related Dettmers conversation posted 10/3 (in a better form) r.e. severance agreement and confidentiality, former instructor/mahatma accounts, and a selection of the most revealing, extreme and wackiest m. quotes (the sixteen million, the dung-beetles, the Mercedes - the practical man, the Lord comes in a physical form -- go through the old And it is Divines and the videos). Hey, get everybody to do it! Like, Folks, please do a little research and post your wackiest M. quotes on the forum or e-mail any actual docs to ex-premie.org. Please post exactly as written or spoken, with specific date of m. quote, location, and source/medium (video, cassette, magazine, book, poster, handout, personal conference, etc.) Then, from all the submissions, put together a gnarly p.r. portfolio. Truly, a little bit goes a long way -- to demystify the cult. It happened to Scientology -- who in the US is interested in them anymore? hardly anyone. Lawsuits definitely helped, too. POST THE TECHNIQUES, now!: Also, what gives the cult any more power or attraction to newcomers? The mystery and secrecy of the techniques. Ex-premie.org and your site, too, should post several pages dedicated entirely to actually showing the techniques (photos with no individual's facial identity, CAD program, or using a mannequin, etc.) and describing the inner focus for each. Brainstorm with other people who have practiced them for years, and still practice -- for accuracy. Explain and demo the variations of physically doing the Light and Sound techs. Also just following the breath, versus listening to the sohung (inspiration/expiration), etc. Then post a zillion metatag links to Knowledge, but don't call it M.'s knowledge -- because it isn't -- it belongs to the human race. Yeah, this has been the big taboo, huh? Just feeds into someone's control/power trip, though. I mean, looks like the lineage has been contested by lots of people over the centuries -- and self-realization does some of the techs, Buddhists do the breath, Ching Hai teaches some, many Sikh lineage teachers show the sound tech, hatha yoga books teach the nectar/tongue, and Indian scriptures (and other traditions) spell out some of the techniques, too. Again, if M. can teach knowledge with a vcr or dvd player, anyone who knows this stuff can. No mystery. It's there to share free. That one website that already does it, though, doesn't explain the focus correctly, I feel. Also, there aren't any digitized video demos of the techs, photos, or diagrams, etc. Speaking personally, I would like to see this done with utter respect for the inner experience and that energy. No clowning around or dissing about the knowledge -- save that 'tude for exposing a packrat. See, that's what kept many of us involved -- the authenticity of our own experiences. So, I propose this: boldly offer knowledge free to the entire world on the internet: and a whole new revolution has begun -- no group or individual will then be able to monopolize these techniques of going within ourselves ever again. No one can copyright the techs -- after all, the techniques are universal, and there's too much documentation around to show that people have done the techniques for thousands of years. Bingo! Then, we can feel good about lots of things. It's not that hard; it's not what you think! haha right?! Revolution for the Love of it -- for our lives, our dignity, our freedom -- and for those who still walk in the cloud of cult delusion, as well as those innocents yet unaffected by the cult. Slavery is hereby abolished! New Beginnings: And, yes, we can actually do something really good and positive, too. The techs posting eventually evolves into this: forget about m. anymore, and just spread the knowledge techniques free all over the internet with gazillions of spiritual, yogic, philosophical, historical, New Age mega metatag word links (select the words that will draw the most hits)! Then establish a positive support group on-line (with translation links) for people everywhere who enjoying practicing. Bingo! Fait accompli! Take a bummer and completely turn it around! Peace and Light to all

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Date: Wed, Oct 04, 2000 at 23:54:36 (GMT) From: Jim Email: None To: suchabanana Subject: Drop the 'respect' -- take a good, hard look Message:

Speaking personally, I would like to see this done with utter respect for the inner experience and that energy. No clowning around or dissing about the knowledge -- save that 'tude for exposing a packrat. See, that's what kept many of us involved -- the authenticity of our own experiences. Such, What makes you think the 'inner experience' is anything other than a whipped-together amalgum of bizarre expectations and simple brain trickery?

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Date: Wed, Oct 04, 2000 at 21:59:14 (GMT) From: gerry Email: None To: suchabanana Subject: experience? what experience? Message:

Such, I don't share your fervor for sharing the techniques. They didn't do much for me and apparently, lots of other people. And besides, they're just old hindi retreads, nothing special.

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Date: Wed, Oct 04, 2000 at 02:20:58 (GMT) From: Steve Email: the_avenger55@hotmail.com To: Everyone Subject: Party Time Message:

1999 Don't worry, I won't hurt U I only want U 2 have some fun I was dreamin' when I wrote this, forgive me if it goes astray But when I woke up this mornin', could've sworn it was Judgment Day The sky was all purple, there were people runnin' everywhere Tryin' 2 run from the destruction, U know I didn't even care Cuz they say 2000 zero zero party over, oops, out of time! So 2night I'm gonna party like it's 1999! I was dreamin' when I wrote this, so sue me if I go 2 fast But life is just a party and parties weren't meant 2 last War is all around us, my mind says prepare 2 fight So if I gotta die, I'm gonna listen 2 my body 2night Yeah, they say 2000 zero zero party over, oops, out of time! So 2night I'm gonna party like it's 1999! (Yeah, yeah) People, let me tell U somethin' If U didn't come 2 party, don't bother knockin' on my door I got a lion in my pocket and, baby, he's ready 2 roar (Yeah) Everybody's got a bomb, we could all die any day (Oh) But before I let that happen, I'll dance my life away Oh, they say 2000 zero zero party over, oops, out of time! (We're runnin' out of time) So 2night I'm gonna party like it's 1999! (We gonna, we gonna, oh!) Say it one more time 2000 zero zero party over, oops, out of time! (No, no) So 2night I'm gonna party like it's 1999! (We're gonna, we gonna) Alright, 1999 U say it, 1999 1999 (1999) Don't stop, don't stop, say it one more time 2000 zero zero party over, oops, out of time! (Yeah, yeah) So 2night I'm gonna party like it's 1999! (We gonna, we’re gonna) Yeah, 1999 (1999) Don't U wanna go? (1999) Don't U wanna go? (1999) We could all die any day (1999) I don't wanna die, I'd rather dance my life away (1999) Listen 2 what I'm tryin' 2 say Everybody, everybody say party! Come on now, U say it (Party!) That's right, everybody say (Party!) {repeat in BG} Can't run from Revelation, no! Sing it 4 your nation, y'all! Dreamin' when U're singin’, baby! Say the telephone a-ringin', mama, now! Come on, come on, U say Everybody, 2 times Work it down 2 the ground, I’m sayin’ (Oh baby, say it again) (Oh, shake your body, baby!) That's right, come on, sing the song That's right, everybody say Got a lion in my pocket mama, say! Ah, and he's ready 2 roar! Yeah! Mommy, why does everybody have a bomb? {x2} © 1982 Controversy Music - ASCAP

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Date: Wed, Oct 04, 2000 at 10:06:08 (GMT) From: sam Email: - To: Steve Subject: gonna cut a rap track of that?(nt) Message:

you should.

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Date: Thurs, Oct 05, 2000 at 06:47:02 (GMT) From: Janet of Venice Email: None To: sam Subject: gonna cut a rap track of that?(nt) Message:

its copyrighted. foo! that's Prince's 1999! donchoo know nothin?? did that gooroo fry yo brain, boy?

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Date: Wed, Oct 04, 2000 at 02:04:35 (GMT) From: Steve Email: the_avenger55@hotmail.com To: Everyone Subject: Silence Message:

The silence around here is deafening. I hope that's a good sign.

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Date: Tues, Oct 03, 2000 at 20:58:40 (GMT) From: Steve Email: the_avenger@hotmail.com To: Everyone Subject: Class Action Suit Message:

Anybody for a class action suit?

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Date: Wed, Oct 04, 2000 at 02:39:13 (GMT) From: suchabanana Email: None To: Steve, and EVERYONE Subject: r.e. Logic: CLASS ACTION SUIT(Legal Reality Check) Message:

Options: I.) Class Action Suit [advisory disclaimer: I am not providing legal counsel here] Folks, Let's really look at this matter logically and sensibly. Follow me patiently here, please: 1. First, in order to have a lawsuit of any kind, laws and statutes have to have been broken. You have to show probable evidentiary cause to file the suit -- so it's not perceived as frivolous and dismissed outright. Second, there has to be a plaintiff and a defendant. You have to prove accountability, deliberate or willful intent/motive or complicity, resultant harm or losses, and computation of actual damages (or statutory, where applicable). Third, there has to be jurisdiction of an applicable court. Fourth, the suit has to comply with any prevailing statute of limitations (e.g. can't exceed X # years ex post facto (after the fact), in many cases). 2. Litigants: Who are obvious potential legitimate plaintiffs in any foreseeable future lawsuits against Prem Rawat, his authorized representatives or agents, or EVI (aka DLM)? --A. the alleged child abuse victims of Jagdeo. UK apparently has no such binding criminal statutes of time limitations (unlike US, where civil statutes might still apply, however). This matter has foreseeable prospects, if all the victims are willing to cooperate collectively and come forward to testify. Jagdeo could be tried in absentia (in India); no problem. Similarly, need to prove that DLM, its representatives, and/or Rawat were made aware of these crimes, and did nothing to resolve or rectify the situation satisfactorily, including making amends to the victims. Judging from Susan's letter and the related info, this is probably a strong compelling argument, if there is multiple witness corroboration (including US schoolteachers' affidavits or sworn depositions). DLM reps would probably have to be issued subpoenas (I don't think extraterritorial extradition applies here). Need to find US victims willing to come forward, too. --B. rape/sexual assault victims of mahatmas/instructors, etc. [same as above] Such lawsuits could be filed in Canada, the United States, and Great Britain, separately. --C. litigant sovereign nations (and their respective states/provinces) - if any laws have have been broken by Rawat, EVI/DLM, or its representatives. Most probable case scenario: alleged tax evasion or complicity to evade taxes. For instance, were limited liability corps. (e.g. Seva or Premo Marine) set up to inure personal material benefit to Mr. Rawat or others, and if so, was this done with any intent to evade pertinent governmental taxes? Burden of proof probably falls on the plaintiff/litigant here. Could be US government (IRS) federal attorney, or other sovereign nations, governments and their respective agencies. State of California, etc. Given the preponderance of governmental authority and means, potentially a problem for Mr. Rawat and EVI internationally. Additionally, were any representatives or employees of Mr. Rawat, EVI (aka DLM), or its agents directed to take any unlawful, dishonest, or otherwise unethical actions (includes accountants and attorneys) which might tend to circumvent or violate applicable tax laws? Here, based on the example of the Dettmers' relayed conversation today, one might surmise that clever preemptory action was taken (i.e. confidentiality or severance agreements) to prevent any inadvertent leaking of incriminating information. However, a court with jurisdiction may always subpoena uncooperative witnesses within their district of jurisdiction. Advisable here, then, to find former employees with access to financial records. -- D. all individual non-profit financial contributors to EVI/DLM: were any personal monies/funds donated under false representations, assumptions and/or assurances by Mr. Rawat, EVI/DLM, or its agents/representatives? Were donations intended for the non-profit corp. EVI/DLM diverted to other outside entities, or improperly for the personal benefit of Mr. Rawat and/or others? Were donated funds (and resultant assets) diverted for the direct personal benefit of Mr. Rawat and others for the direct or indirect purposes of avoiding income taxes? Were employees of EVI/DLM or its agents party to these violations? Need for witnesses, evidence, and/or enough circumstantial evidence to interest the IRS (USA) and similar governmental tax agencies in other countries, or their respective states and provinces. Given the many contributors to EVI/DLM, potential seen for possible multi-national litigation. --E. Ashram residents -- were any DLM ashram residents directed to collect, convey, or report monies accruing to Mr. Rawat, DLM, or its agents, in any way in violation with prevailing laws? --F. other claimants or plaintiffs? 3. Award of Damages: This is where the relayed communications with Mr. Michael Dettmers are most revealing. Even a brief review of the Seva Corp. records indicates that a clever and concerted effort was made to limit the liability of EVI as an organization (and perhaps incidentally provide some personal immunity for Mr. Rawat himself and his cohorts), by creating separate legal entities actually owning the substantial assets accumulated under the alleged auspices of DLM/EVI and its related services, via sales and substantial material donations to the one-time Lord of the Universe. Considering Mr. Dettmer's alleged admitted severance and confidentiality agreement (per the 10/3/00 posting on the ex-premie.org website), therefore, it would not be surprising if the directors/officers of these alleged ex officio affiliate entities did not likewise also have similar remunerative confidential arrangements with EVI -- and also pertaining to the eventual disbursement of any corporate assets of Seva Corp. and Premo Marine. Accordingly, if financial judgments are won directly against EVI/DLM, it would appear that the alleged substantial overall assets obtained via the organization may actually be sheltered within other protected entities --thereby potentially limiting EVI's own liability and the collection of actual monetary damages. Similarly, the numerous corporate assets directly utilized by Mr. Rawat (comprising tens of millions of US dollars in material assets) are apparently not owned by Mr. Rawat himself. Need to prove complicity or organization for purposes of tax evasion, or collection of debts, or for other unlawful purposes, etc. In the USA, burden of proof is upon the litigant, unless the federal government takes an active role in such investigations and discoveries. Ergo: Mr Dettmers' assessment of Mr. Rawat's legal team's clever maneuvers and precautions may be credible. Hence, by all means, if prudent (and if desirable) then pursue all legal avenues and recourse in all nations and localities possible. II. Additional Options Available, too: Purposes: 1. To advise/warn potential future cult recruits/aspirants. 2. To provide information on-line and to the various media regarding alleged cult activities and abuses. 3. To provide a coordinated or linked network of support, counselling, legal advice, open feedback, inspiration and positive encouragement, and related services to those already involved or affected in the past. Use all available media: network and brainstorm with others to collectively notify and affect all countries and localities where Rawat and EVI and its affiliates operate (or intend to operate). Contact and utilize any and all free press and broadcasting access. Conduct coordinated media campaigns. Create network of linked websites with respective roles. Thank you for your attention to this matter. Peace, suchabanana

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Date: Wed, Oct 04, 2000 at 15:12:46 (GMT) From: gErRy Email: None To: suchabanana Subject: Don't gimme any of that legal cult speak, buster Message:

Hey that was good. We should save it somewhere. Maybe Dave or Roger could give it a home on their webpages somewhere. And Part II Additional Options, we should all print it out and paste it on our foreheads. Hmmm that wouldn't work. We could paste it on our partners foreheads. OK maybe on the wall would be better...

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Date: Tues, Oct 03, 2000 at 22:31:21 (GMT) From: SURE Email: None To: Steve Subject: sure! Message:

SURE

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Date: Tues, Oct 03, 2000 at 20:55:39 (GMT) From: Steve Email: the_avenger@hotmail.com To: Everyone Subject: Going for a strikeout Message:

From Microsoft Encarta Dictionary: http://dictionary.msn.com/find/entry.asp?search=bum bum 1 [bum ] noun (plural bums) (informal) 1. good-for-nothing: somebody considered to be irresponsible or worthless 2. hobo: a homeless person living on the street (sometimes considered offensive) 3. devotee: a person excessively devoted to a particular activity or place a ski bum adjective useless: useless, worthless, or of poor quality (informal) gave me some pretty bum advice Re the noun definition, I think we might have two strikes against the batter. We're going for a strikeout. Steve

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Date: Tues, Oct 03, 2000 at 18:21:52 (GMT) From: steve Email: the_avenger55@hotmail.com To: Everyone Subject: Justice Message:

I've only read a bit of the entire forum, but after reading Salam's message of October 3 I am wondering why I have never heard of even one lawsuit against Rawat or his organizations. Any lawyers out there with opinions on this? I would strongly suspect that the excruciating ambivalnce caused by the facts that PP is both a true teacher and a demon, exacerbated by the lord of the universe/all powerful stuff that was diabolically foisted on us created paralyzing fear in us all. My current understanding of the truth is that the True, Perfect, All-Knowing, Loving, Just, True Lord Of The Universe always has the last word and that gurus, even those presenting the highest form of initiation available on the planet, are subject to Divine Judgment like everyone else. I have grown to believe, and this forum has nurtured that growth, that we are all part of the Divine. Knowledge has helped us to realize that Divine character and thus to be Divine Judges ourselves. Something has to be done about PP. Are the lawcourts of the land an appropriate avenue for effective action? If so, let the judges of the land participate in PP's downfall. If not, let the Divine Judges increase in number and power and let Divine Justice win very very soon. With Love To All Steve

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Date: Wed, Oct 04, 2000 at 01:33:59 (GMT) From: Salam Email: None To: steve Subject: psss. Message:

talk quietly. EV is listening for us. many suits. veeerrrry secritive. not in public. watch and see.

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Date: Wed, Oct 04, 2000 at 01:42:02 (GMT) From: steve Email: the_avenger55@hotmail.com To: Salam Subject: psss. Message:

No need for fear, Steve is here.

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Date: Thurs, Oct 05, 2000 at 06:53:29 (GMT) From: Janet of Venice Email: None To: steve Subject: fear Message:

feel the fear and do it anyway. the worst that cappen is --the worst that can happen. fear is an imagination conjured to fill the unknown, and by the time what ever it is gets here, it'll be the known. hey here's a good laugh. we're conspiring. know what conspiracy is?? literally?--breathing together

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Date: Fri, Oct 06, 2000 at 20:24:21 (GMT) From: cq Email: None To: Janet of Venice Subject: conspiracy=breathing together. True. (literally) Message:

damn Now the authorities can screw us for anything.

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Date: Tues, Oct 03, 2000 at 17:57:00 (GMT) From: Jim Email: None To: Everyone Subject: My latest talk with Dettmers Message:

Talked with MD for over an hour yesterday and here's what he said: He's pissed off that Yves et al. are sticking it to him so hard. After all, he claims that he did make a good faith effort to explain himself here in his initial 'emails for publication' to me and then in his own follow-up posts. But nho one's interested in giving him the basic respect and benefit of the doubt that he or anyone should expect. He's particularly angry that Yves has brought up the 'Swiss Foundation' thing again -- and Joe has taken at face value Yves' account that MD's put it back in his resume -- when, in fact, he hasn't reinserted it. (I've never checked so I wouldn't know) MD reiterated that he has taken a 'principled stand to not trash Maharaji personally' and we discussed that a bit. I suggested that as this was the epitome of a personality cult, and one that encouraged worshipping the leader as the literal embodiment of God, that his personality was very much the issue. What can I tell you? MD disagrees. He still meditates, he thinks that Anth got it right when he started posting somewhat sympathetic sentiments about Maharaji recently, how the guy was just a product of his bizarre childhood, etc., and that Maharaji was never insincere about his mission in life when MD knew him. That is, if he's now a coldly calculating avaricious monster of a cult leader, he only became so after MD left. When he knew him, Maharaji honestly believed in himself and thought that his luxurious lifestyle was nothing less than appropriate for the Perfect Master. So, anyway, he's not going to dish dirt on Maharaji. Besides that, he claims to not really have any. That's when I brought up his confidentiality agreeement and 'severance package'. He advised me that these were insisted upon by Jacobs, Maharaji's top drawer lawyer, a man who'd earlier been Linda Gross' boss / mentor and who'd taken Maharaji on as a client as a favour to her. Jacobs, MD advises, put together such perfect, unassailable business structures for Maharaji that, in MD's opinion, Maharaji would never be vulnerable to any further scrutiny from the IRS or anyone. There already were a couple of IRS audits back in MD's time and DLM / EV sailed through just fine thanks to Jacobs. So Jacobs insisted that someone who'd worked as hard as he'd seen MD work for all those years deserved a little somethin' somethin'. MD couldn't say no and Jacobs through the confidentiality clause in as the product of simple common sense. Apparently there were several such packages. MD no longer feels like he might want to confront Maharaji himself someday, in his own way, of course. He did send Susan's letter on but that was essentially because he got to know her a bit in the past year, believed her story and couldn't stomach seeing EV call her a liar about coming forward earlier with it in its new FAQ. The fact is that MD's moving on. Or he has moved on. He's not interersted in Maharaji and he has no interest in trying -- futilely, he suggests -- trying to topple him. And what would be the point anyway? The reasonable people all got out already or, if they haven't yet, they will. (MD believes that the cult is truly on its last legs. Mind you, he says he thought so as well back in the mid eighties when he split.) And the lifer die-hards might never shake out. That's life, isn't it? I posited a hypothetical to him: what if his wife or someone else he cared about deeply decided to join this cult, lock stock and barrel. If MD had to demystify Maharaji hard and fast what secret information would he use? Surely there must be something? MD answered that he couldn't really see that happening but that, if it did, he ... well, he couldn't really see it happening. And don't forget, he still meditates. I returned to the San Ysidro Non-Video Event. What really happened? MD stuck to his original story, that Maharaji willingly went to a management-style seminar hosted by the Charles Schutz guy. It got confrontational at times because that's the only way those things work. At no time did Maharaji ever bolt or anything of the sort. And no, as he said before, this was not an 'intervention' about either drugs or alcohol. But MD wants to move on. He believes that any breach of his confidentiality clause could do thunderous damage to his current business. I tried to argue that he would easily be able to distinguish that agreement from those he enters into with his new clients but MD wasn't buying. Why bother anyway? No harm, no foul, life moves on. They were heady times, all that unfettered idealism. We're all different now. There you go. I expressed my disappointment that JM and Anth are the only former PAMs to really join this effort to deconstruct and, yes, topple a predatory cult and its leader. But what's new about that? Md knows my feelings; I know his. (Buy the way, I left out KK. Is there anyone else?) Gotta go.

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Date: Fri, Oct 06, 2000 at 13:58:04 (GMT) From: Yves Email: None To: Jim Subject: That's all folks Message:

It seem that's all we're going to get for now.

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Date: Fri, Oct 06, 2000 at 17:26:16 (GMT) From: Jim Email: None To: Yves Subject: You mean Mike hasn't contact you yet? (nt) Message:

Just kidding

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Date: Wed, Oct 04, 2000 at 11:50:34 (GMT) From: GAC Email: None To: Jim Subject: Tough Luck You're pissed - Deacon Dettmers - Message:

So, now we hear Deacon Dettmers is displeased with us for not accepting his Corporate Consultant Fluff Songs on this site. Too bad, Deacon Dettmers! Many of us here feathered your nest when your silence was bought by the EV Church lawyer. Now you'll find with a few exceptions that we will not provide the feathers for your conscience you'd like us to stroke. Stew on it Brother Michael and tell Sister Gross the same. Church and Educational Institute - right. Funny, the inside liars club (and you are all liars) never told the masses where their money was truly going. So tell us Deacon Dettmers is Sister Gross in it for the millions of dollars too? GAC

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Date: Wed, Oct 04, 2000 at 11:46:13 (GMT) From: CHR Email: None To: all Subject: Leave the guy alone Message:

I find some of the 'witch hunting' here on the forum a little ugly. No doubt somebody will reply with some sort of patronising, self righteous statement to the effect of 'what about all the ugly things M did to us, in which Michael Dettmers was involved', but I really wish everybody would just leave the guy alone. I stumbled upon this site in 1997 and it was very helpful for me to be able to sort through and discuss experiences that I had had as a premie from 1973 to the early 90s. It was a reasonably tolerant forum at the time with a wide range of viewpoints. When I look in, these days, I tend to see a site that is full of its own self importance to the extent that there is an expectation that every ex PAM should feel an obligation to reveal their whole experience of M here. There also is an undercurrent of expectation that their experiences should always fit in with the paradigm of the 'desperate, meglomaniacal, totally fraudulent, drunken, sex crazy, money hungry cult leader.' This expectation of compliance with a particular viewpoint seems to me to be at the least hypocritical, at worst almost draconian. I mean, what is this site for? My understanding is that it is a forum for people who have left M, to freely discuss and express what they have been through. If you are wanting people who used to be close to M to come forward, the treatment of Dettmers on this forum has virtually snuffed out any possibility. I persnally know ex PAMS who have a huge amount to offer, but do not feel safe to come onto the forum.

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Date: Fri, Oct 06, 2000 at 19:01:36 (GMT) From: Susan Email: None To: CHR Subject: I agree CHR Message:

But we seem pretty much in the minority here. I was very much hoping Michael would say more, and I still hope he will find some way to make a stronger statement about his feelings about the cult and his own personal 'journey'. I think some of the questions and challenges raised by the posters here are very legitimate. Others remind me of the guy in LOTU who said he thought the pie thrower deserved to have his throat slit. Fanaticism is hardest to take when its coming from your own side. When people behave in an ugly fashion and excuse the behavior by how important the 'cause' is I have to question it. I do think we see here as you say why so few PAMs have come out to be of help on this site. But I do not want to appear to be excusing the legitimate questions, and there are many. I do think that a lot of people who post haven't even taken the time to look up what Michael did say way back when he posted. He did clarify that when he was in the cult, and gave for example, that Poconos satsang, he did very much believe what he was saying. His proccess of seeing the cult for the cult it is was slow, like it is for most of us. But I do not want to get in the role of being his spokesman or his apologist. And I do consider him to be a friend, and I do not want to wade into the muck here and duke it out. I am sad that he likely will not be saying more, I think what he has to say could be helpful to some wavering premies and to some ex premies. Yes, there are ex's who will always treat him badly, and there are premies who would never stop believing Guru is greater than God even if Rawat did a real mea culpa, but there are a whole lot of other people listening who he could make a difference to.

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Date: Thurs, Oct 05, 2000 at 12:49:31 (GMT) From: JohnT Email: None To: CHR Subject: Why excuse Rawat's accessories to fraud? Message:

CHR: Michael Dettmers ... I really wish everybody would just leave the guy alone. Why on earth should this particular crooked ( = 'cynical and aware operative for a fraudulent messiah and false God') career cultist be left alone? To enjoy the cash he's helped to screw out of folk he helped to delude? Get real, CHR. The world just isn't like that. And nor should it be. Understand that the facts indicate Dettmers was NOT an honestly deluded victim of Rawat's lies. No. He'd seen through all that, even before Bob Mishler left all those years ago. He is not like Mel Bourne; shp; Elaine; O; Deputy Dawg; Mili or even Shroomananda. No, those poor deluded folks were deliberately tricked and deluded by Rawat and PAMs like Dettmers. Confidence tricksters who pretended to believe in Rawat's divinity and urged on others the beliefs they publicly espoused but privately rejected - for what? For cash and career. WAS IT WORTH IT, DETTMERS?

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Date: Wed, Oct 04, 2000 at 21:47:16 (GMT) From: Roger eDrek Email: drek@oz.net To: CHR Subject: this is definitely going to be self righteous Message:

Come on! Yeah, you are correct, however, in saying that the Forum is not the kinder and gentler forum. Fine, that's your opinion and you are entitled to it. That viewpoint is the well known nicey-nicey thing where your disdain and disgust, IMO, says that those of us (I admit that I think I am one) that are rather racous and ill-mannered are not good, kind and caring decent people. And to me that 'church-lady' attitude really sucks and is very stifling. Stop trying cover me with your wet blanket, please! I believe that other kinder and gentler forums have been created to cater to the different interests and tastes. Your whining message to this forum is a complete and utter waste of time as this Forum has been this way ever since I can remember.

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Date: Thurs, Oct 05, 2000 at 04:18:15 (GMT) From: CHR Email: None To: Roger eDrek Subject: this is definitely going to be self righteous Message:

Well, I nearly didn't bother responding to such a garbled misunderstanding of what I had posted. I really don't care about 'nicey nicey' as you put it. What I do care about is the ability and willingness to listen to another's point of view and respect how they wish to use the forum. My main interest here is to help people, and especially ex-premies, understand the reality of what they were or are involved in with M. This is not served well by innuendo, sensationalism, or muckraking on fellow ex premies. I actually don't give a shit whether you or anybody else here is 'nice' or not, but I find the push to make somebody, such as MD, tow a certain line or give over information, reeks of similarities to the pressure I experienced at times as a premie, in M's ashram and organisation.

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Date: Thurs, Oct 05, 2000 at 05:11:34 (GMT) From: Roger eDrek Email: drek@oz.net To: CHR Subject: well... Message:

I think that our purposes are different. I have clearly come to the point where I want to muckrake. Ultimately, I want to put Maharaji out of business and prevent him from drawing others into his personality worshipping cult. I want to affect Maharaji's bottom dollar line and let him stand accountable. Sensationalism? I strongly suspect that we don't know the half of it. In fact, I'd be willing to guess that what we know of is only the tip of the proverbial iceberg. I adored Maharaji for years and years. I always put the organization, people like Dettmers, the mahatmas, the initiators, the instructors, the entourage, and all the rest to blame before Maharaji. But, now? Now, I think Maharaj and all his honchos are filthy dirty. And as far as wanting Dettmers to be something - well, no. I think he is still a shill for Maharaji. The fact is that he was bought off, paid for, bribed. Sure, he and Bob Jacobs could come up with a more benign term for their arrangement, but to the man on the street it was a payoff. Whether the revelation of Dettmers receiving such a payoff falls into the category of innuendo, sensationalism, or muckraking, I don't think so. It was his admission to Jim. It is my sensationalist belief that Dettmers profited quite handsomely from his role, his association. And I believe that some of his current business arrangements might be the result of that association today. Compare what Dettmers got to what the others got and for the unluckly ashram residents to get the boot and then to have to pick up the pieces in the form of ashram debts. Finally, you say you want to make people feel better. Not all feeling better comes from soothing talk. Sometimes taking a strong stand and toppling an oppressor is the medicine that the doctor ordered. For me, that's what makes me feel better because for years and years and years Maharaji and Company (including people on stage looking just like Michael Dettmers) told me that I was nothing without Maharaji and everything and anything I would or could do would be worthless meaningless nothing. That's really oppressive and really a cruel form of disempowerment (I'd like to use the word castrastion.) Heck, call it what it is and it was brainwashing. And people like Dettmers were part of it and not only that he profited from it. You can feel your way about, but I know I'm going to feel my way about. Being in that damn cult for over 24 years fucked me in the abililty of being a normal successful person with some sense of pride and accomplishment. I've wasted years and years thinking that I was a worthless piece of shit because of this damn cult. And here's Dettmers, IMO, lying his ass off for what reason I don't know. Is it my innuendo, sensationalism, or muckraking on my website that he is concerned with. Oh, I don't want to be that self-centered and think that something I did had an effect on the world or nothing, but one can dream... Thanks, I enjoyed feeling my deepest feelings on this subject. I'm pissed. I'm nearly fifty years old with the best years of my life wasted on trying to fit Maharaji's crap philosophy into my life. You bet I'm pissed.

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Date: Thurs, Oct 05, 2000 at 19:08:47 (GMT) From: Bin Liner Email: None To: Roger eDrek Subject: well... Message:

110% right on Mr. Drek.

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Date: Thurs, Oct 05, 2000 at 22:58:28 (GMT) From: Roger eDrek Email: drek@oz.net To: Bin Liner Subject: and JohnT says it so well above, too (nt) Message:

adsf

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Date: Thurs, Oct 05, 2000 at 00:03:46 (GMT) From: Gordon Showcase Email: None To: Roger eDrek Subject: this is definitely going to be self righteous Message:

Yes, it's been this way, this wining, winjing way ever since I came to this forum. You loosers have nothing better to do than invent stories and slag off your master, without whom, you would have died of drugs back in the 1970s. You make me sick with your pathetic attempts to sully Maharaji's good name. He is a decent, respectable and honourable member of society who is doing some good in this world by giving his free gift to all who want it. Wats your free gift, then? Just moning and living in the past. I bet you still ware flarred trousers.

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Date: Thurs, Oct 05, 2000 at 03:47:56 (GMT) From: Scott T. Email: None To: Gordon Showcase Subject: Free valuable wats collection, maybe... Message:

Gordon: Wats your free gift, then? I'm thinking about conducting a study to see if there is a market for more valuable free prizes at Maharaji prices. In the mean time you might be able to score a toaster oven. --Scott

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Date: Thurs, Oct 05, 2000 at 01:56:39 (GMT) From: Roger eDrek Email: drek@oz.net To: Gordon Showcase Subject: can you get me some of those 70's drugs? Message:

Gordon, sweetie, I missed out on all of those good kill ya dead drugs of the 70's. Do ya think ya can get me some to see what I missed?

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Date: Wed, Oct 04, 2000 at 20:01:16 (GMT) From: Joe Email: joger02@aol.com To: CHR Subject: Hope this isn't self-righteous Message:

CHR, I'm curious about your PAM friends who say it's unsafe to post here. Is it because somebody might disagree with them? Surely they are not worried about their personal safety, unless of course, they are worried about crazed premies coming after them. What is it about the forum they fear? See, I think some PAMs aren't really afraid of the forum, or that people who post on the forum might disagree with them. I think they may be more afraid of somebody finding out they were once premies, or that premies might find out they are ex-premies, and 'aiding the enemies of Maharaji.' Because, really, in the cult-world if your aren't deferential towards Maharaji, you are an enemy, or at least a suspect, potential enemy. I also think some PAMs, and I think this might include Dettmers, are reticent to talk about their own involvement in the cult, and what they did and believed as PAMs because it is embarrassing, including being embarrassing to current friends and business relationships. The forum, and the supposed 'nastiness' that occurs here, which I frankly think is extremely minor, is just used as an excuse. Clearly, people have the right to post or not post, and to discuss the cult or just try to forget it all. But I don't think it is just 'self-righteous' posturing to say that people who benefited from their cult involvement, financially and otherwise, should think beyond themselves and try to help and support people to get out of the cult, and to process their involvement after they got out. It's exactly for the 'support' reasons for which you liked the forum, that I think people like Michael Dettmers have a moral obligation to open up and tell the truth. Obviously Michael disagrees, and I have no intention of lambasting someone for that, but I don't think it's inappropriate to mention it. And as I have said. I am not interested in Michael or anyone else dishing personal dirt on Maharaji and his personal life. But I think discussion of why things happened, and how they were perceived from a PAMs vantage point, like closing the ashrams, the perspective on Maharaji's and the PAM's views on Maharaji's divinity, etc., is extremely important, helpful, and immensely supportive. As Lesley says on another thread so well, it was INFORMATION and SUPPORT of this forum that has helped her and others break free. PAMs have information that can help people do that, and I don't think I'm being patronizing by suggesting that there is a moral obligation to help where one is particularly situated to do so, like if someone is a former PAM. Joe

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Date: Thurs, Oct 05, 2000 at 03:56:33 (GMT) From: CHR Email: None To: Joe Subject: Hope this isn't self-righteous Message:

Hi Joe, 'Unsafe' is probably the wrong word. Its more that they feel it is difficult to have a discussion here without strong expectations from the other posters. Michael Dettmers said what he said on the forum and since then there has been a fairly constant push for him to change his point of view, to fit in with a certain perception of M etc. He would have been better off not saying anything, and this is the viewpoint of the people (ex PAMS) I mentioned. At least one of these people has helped several premies and exes free themselves of M. Why is there some sort of moral obligagation to do it on this site?

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Date: Thurs, Oct 05, 2000 at 17:23:44 (GMT) From: Joe Email: None To: CHR Subject: Hope this isn't self-righteous Message:

If ex-PAMs feel so emotionally destroyed by their cult experience and feel to fragile to post here, then I agree, they shouldn't. But I have a hard time believing that people who left 15 years ago are still so vulnerable. And certainly, I can assure you, that does not apply to Michael Dettmers. I think Michael doesn't say more that what he did because he has a confidentiality agreement with Maharaji, is concerned about the effects of violating that, but, more importantly, I think Michael Dettmers does not want to be confronted with the carefully crafted rationalizations he has developed to avoid facing his cult involvement, a cult involvement many times more significant in helping Maharaji do what he did and continues to do, than any of the rest of us. And it's great that people help their friends get out of the Maharaji cult. That's laudable. But there are a lot more cult members, and recent ex-cult members who aren't fortunate enough to have a friend who is an ex-PAM to help explain what was really going on. So, I'm saying they could be a lot more effective by giving information to a lot more people, even if they do it anonymously. I strongly believe that information is the antitode to cult programming. I've heard that too many times on this forum not to believe that is true. And, at this point, this is the only centralized forum to discuss all this. I think it has been amazingly effective, and it is just beginning. It could be even more effective with even more information.

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Date: Thurs, Oct 05, 2000 at 04:32:31 (GMT) From: Scott T. Email: None To: CHR Subject: Hope this isn't self-righteous Message:

CHR: I also know people who have first-hand knowledge of M's, shall we say, 'indescretions.' They won't post to this site because they have more to lose than gain by doing so, or should I say they have everything to lose and nothing to gain. But I don't think the 'tone' of the site has anything to do with it at all. And I can't imagine that these PAM folks are so thin-skinned that they feel intimidated. Given who they are, and what they've done, that would just be out of character. Rather, in Michael's case it is mostly a matter of the nondisclosure agreement... and a certain reluctance to expose a not-too-secure philosophical rationalization to outside scrutiny (or even self scutiny). The fact that it's not-too-secure (if my inference is correct) speaks volumes. Perhaps he does need to move on, and maybe he'll be back. --Scott

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Date: Thurs, Oct 05, 2000 at 05:00:39 (GMT) From: CHR Email: None To: Scott T. Subject: Hope this isn't self-righteous Message:

Not everybody who was around M is thick skinned. In fact most of the people I knew were very sincere and caring people. Some of these people were hurt deeply in the fallout from M. One person I know had been involved very closely from the age of thirty to Fifty five. She left with nothing except a deep sense of personal betrayal. The forum is not the appropriate place to share some of these things, it is too impersonal and anonymous and prone to misunderstandings - this is more to do with the nature of on line discussions than the forum itself. We are talking about big slabs of peoples personal lives. It is really up to their own personal decision as to whether they decide to share anything. Harrassment is certainly one way to make sure they don't. And why is there this expectation that all must be shared HERE. There are many other avenues of expression and ways of helping.

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Date: Thurs, Oct 05, 2000 at 15:04:27 (GMT) From: la-ex Email: None To: CHR Subject: Hope this isn't self-righteous Message:

CHR-I agree with some of the things you have said, but I DO feel that this is the best place for PAMS to express themselves for the following reasons: 1-The more that is revealed about 'maharaji the man',as opposed to 'the lord on stage', the better.I know that for years I believed what was told to me about m, and bought the 'stage persona' hook,line and sinker.The internet is by far the best and probably only place where the entire picture can be pieced together,with stories and personal anecdotes from around the world that begin to paint the picture of what has gone on behind the scenes while we were busy watching the stage show. I think people need to know more about m's personal character before they do something like receive knowledge,and they will never find that out from his presentations, but can and do here. 2-PAMS who want to post can simply share the information about what they saw and experienced around m, without haveing to 'bare their soul' and experience negative feedback like dettmers has. It does not have to be personal stuff or get personal between them and others. Thanks for listening, LA (I do think that the internet and this site can be the sword that does m in,as in 'he who lives by the sword,dies by the sword'...m has always been fascinated by technology and used it to the max for his own purposes...I think it is fitting that now technology can be used to expose him for what he is...)

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Date: Thurs, Oct 05, 2000 at 14:21:14 (GMT) From: Jim Email: None To: CHR Subject: The APPARENT Dettmers paradox Message:

CHR, It sounds like you're buying into Dettmers' 'damned-if-ya'-do-and-damned-if-ya'-don't' story. Here he comes, a real, live one-time cult majordomo, and, unlike so many other former PAMs who won't say anything, he is more than willing to say a few, kind words for the folks at home ..... but what does he get for his efforts? Nothing but grief. Nothing but 'Michael. Michael, tell us more!' and worse, much worse, real live anger and suspicion! I mean, fuck 'em if they're going to be such ingrates, huh? Here's Dettmers actually rolling up his sleeves and talking to all of us .... a bit ... BUT IS ANYBODY LISTENING!?? Let's not forget who had the 'talent' to become the president of DLM / EV in the first place, shall we? No, it wasn't some nameless flunky like 'Roger E. Drek'. It wasn't some weirdo like this Yves guy. It wasn't even Mr. Joseph Q. Whalen who, I remind you, was a mere community co-ordinator. No, none of those guys had it. Dettmers, on the other hand, did. What bugs me about Mike -- and I hope you're reading this, Mike, because, I mean it sincerely and I'd love for you to think about this and then maybe one day we can talk about it, if you're still interested -- is the way he's just got so much pride and self-satisfaction for how he helped run the cult in his day. He can't see past that to really understand how simply ugly, wasteful, ridiculous and downright destructive it was for people. And how does Michael immunize himself from ever having to face that simple truth? He does so by finding work that allows him to treat his whole cult experience as really nothing more than the place where he first cut his teeth as a naturally-gifted 'management consultant'. Yeah, that's right, Michael, just like you told me the other day, you ARE really good at what you do. Good for you. Whatever it is you're doing, man, you're good at it. Really, it's so obvious in a way. I know, I know, I hate to play at psychoanalyzing people. I think it's usually stupid, false and downright rude. Usually the facts are wrong, let alone the interpretations. And maybe I'm guilty of that right now. But, for MY money, it's so obvious that Michael's 'management consulting' gig, with all his clients who he'd just HATE to give the wrong impression to, is just a way for him to rationalize where he came from. Where'd you FIRST learn to advise 'corporate' big shots, Mike? Where'd you FIRST learn to gather their trust? To walk and talk so comfortably with them? Where'd you FIRST learn to play with power, even if only vicariously? Michael respects Bob Jacobs. Jacobs is a top-draw advisor to the rich and powerful. Indeed, as Michael explained, Maharaji's such a anomolously dinky client for Jacobs, that's the kind of guy Jacobs is. He's helped put to bed big, billion dollar deals time and again. What's not to respect? Michael does NOT respect Roger E. Drek. And again, why should he? Where's HIS resume, huh? Michael's is right out there for the world to see, but where's Mr. Drek's? (Notice how I leave myself out of this? Cute, huh?) So, yes, CHR, Dettmers didn't get quite the easy treatment here. Oh yeah, at one point he was actually thinking of writing something to Maharaji himself, maybe mix it up a bit with his former client, if you can imagine something so unprofessional and just downright uppity. But that moment's passed. We weren't polite enough, you see. 'Professional', perhaps. Maybe THAT's the word.

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Date: Fri, Oct 06, 2000 at 00:19:17 (GMT) From: Roger eDrek Email: drek@oz.net To: Jim Subject: Hey! Why me? I haven't done nothing... Message:

Yeah, that's right! I haven't ever done nothing in my life to amount to a pile of shit. Yes, mostly it's my fault if I really take the responsibility, but I'd prefer to blame the Lord of the Universe for making me second guess myself for over 24 years wondering whether I was ever doing the right thing. Blah, blah, blah - Words! Anyway, Jim, like my buddy Joey used to say, 'I'll deal with you later. And, that's Mr. Flunky to you.' But what do I care? This is all just fucking maya and we're all going to die anyway. At least that's what I've been told.

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Date: Fri, Oct 06, 2000 at 00:35:59 (GMT) From: Jim Email: None To: Roger eDrek Subject: Hey! Why me? I haven't done nothing... Message:

Roger, We're on the same page here, aren't we? I hope so. I was being.... faceitous? But then you were too, right?

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Date: Fri, Oct 06, 2000 at 00:44:37 (GMT) From: Roger eDrek Email: drek@oz.net To: Jim Subject: Moi? Message:

Jim, you know that I am always serious! And these are serious matters. I did see that you were talking about me, but the dullard that I am does not always possess the greatest of reading comprehensions so I may avoid a few of the larger words and avoid the longer paragraphs and skim. In fact, I prefer books with pictures.

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Date: Fri, Oct 06, 2000 at 00:56:25 (GMT) From: Jim Email: None To: Roger eDrek Subject: Oh? What kind of pictures? (nt) Message:

gggg

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Date: Fri, Oct 06, 2000 at 01:18:32 (GMT) From: Roger eDrek Email: drek@oz.net To: Jim Subject: Like these, of course Message:

this picture!

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Date: Fri, Oct 06, 2000 at 14:08:31 (GMT) From: Yves Email: None To: Roger eDrek Subject: Liste Roger. It is ME who Jim called a weirdo Message:

Mind your own character.

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Date: Fri, Oct 06, 2000 at 16:16:03 (GMT) From: Jim Email: None To: Yves Subject: Yes, well everyone gets their little moment (nt) Message:

ffffff

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Date: Fri, Oct 06, 2000 at 02:22:52 (GMT) From: Fergie Email: None To: Roger eDrek Subject: I told Prince Andy to burn those... Message:

I've got so many better pix and dix since I've joined Weight Watchers. I love it when you suck my toes like that, Roger. Yeah, that's the way, oooooh, yes....

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Date: Fri, Oct 06, 2000 at 01:25:40 (GMT) From: Jim Email: None To: Roger eDrek Subject: That's not Joan Apter! Message:

I don't who you're trying to fool, Roger, but that is NOT a picture of Joan or any other PAM. Well, she looks more like she's a POM than a PAM .... Honestly, is that picture for real? Is that woman really waiting for Maharaji? Holy cow....

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Date: Fri, Oct 06, 2000 at 02:27:08 (GMT) From: Jim Email: None To: Jim Subject: THIS is Joan Apter! Message:

Here's the link (mind never work for some reason): The REAL Joan Apter And here's the URL just in case: http://www.ideachampions.com/staff.shtml#joan Note how Joan and Ditkoff are doing the same thing as Dettmers, trying to rationalize away their cult fanaticism as 'management consulting'. My favorite quote from the site? Well it's all so shlocky but there are a few choice blurbs that must have special significance for the (former?) cult members in the company. Here's one: 'Face the Music Proof that the Millennium is upon us… Face the Music is a highly accomplished, interactive business blues band that gives participants a constructive way to express their corporate blues, while simulaneously sparking teamwork, risk taking and innnovation. A perfect way to energize participants and launch a company conference. Recent clients include: GE, Panasonic, Aventis, Con Edison and Ernst & Young.' Here's another: 'Keynotes Interactive, 60-90 minute presentations that help people get off their 'ifs, ands or buts' and into creative action. Topics include: 'Free the Genie,' 'Beyond Limiting Assumptions,' 'Leading Indicators of an Innovator,' 'Creative Thinking 101,' 'Fostering Innovation in the Workplace,' 'Idea Greenhouse,' and 'Reinventing Retirement.'' But then, there's this bizarre thingamajigger: The Ten Commandments for Visiting a New Age Ashram During the past two decades, a curious phenomenon has swept this nation. Inspired by the teachings of several Master souls from the East, an unusually large number of ashrams have made their appearance on the scene -- spiritual retreats designed to provide seekers of the truth with a focused environment in which to practice their particular spiritual path. While most people who spend time in an ashram are extremely dedicated and sincere, there still remains a goodly number who, in their attempt to have 'an experience,' miss the point completely. Seduced by the Western notion of cause and effect, they somehow think that spiritual attainment is related to the way they act -- as if God were some kind of transcultural Santa Claus looking for good little boys and girls to bring his shiny red firetrucks to. Not surprisingly, the spirit of the law is all too often traded for the letter -- a letter that, no matter how many stamps are put on it, is continually returned for insufficient postage. Surrender is replaced by submission; patience by hesitation; and humility by timidity. Alas, in the name of finding themselves, our God-seeking brothers and sisters have tended to lose the very thing that makes them truly human -- their individuality. And so, with great respect to your personal God, your Guru, your Guru's Guru, and your favorite tax-deductible charity, I humbly offer you the following soul-saving tips should you decide to visit (or move into) the local ashram of your choice. Take what you can, leave the rest, and remember -- it's not whether your shoes are on or off, but if your heart is open... 1. DO NOT CHANGE THE WAY YOU WALK Most visitors to a new age ashram think they have to change the way they walk if they are truly going to have a spiritual experience. Somehow, they believe there is a direct correlation between the way they move their feet and the amount of 'grace' or 'blessings' about to enter their lives. The 'ashram walk,' is actually a not-too-distant cousin of the 'museum walk,' the curious way a person slows down and shuffles knowingly, yet humbly, past a Monet (or is it a Manet?), silently 'getting' the essence of the Masterpiece even as they move noddingly towards that incomprehensible cubist piece in the next room. If you like, think of the ashram walk as the complete opposite of the on-the-way-to-work-walk or the exiting-a-disco-in-New York walk. Simply put, the ashram walk is a way of moving that practitioners believe will attract small deer from nearby forests -- deer that will literally walk right up to them and eat from their hand -- more proof to anyone in the general vicinity that they are, in fact, enlightened souls, humble devotees, children of God, or the so-far-unacknowledged successors to their guru's lineage. Ideally, the ashram walk should be taken in sandals, though Reeboks or Chinese slippers will do in a pinch. Cowboy boots are definitely out, as are galoshes, high heels, and Chuck Taylor Converse All-Stars. 2. DO NOT, UNDER ANY CIRCUMSTANCES, SUCCUMB TO THE ASHRAM 'NOD' Closely related to the ashram walk, the ashram nod is routinely practiced in spiritual retreats the world over. And while no one completely comprehends it's divine origins, many believe it began when a blissful ashram brother simply forgot the name of his roommate on his way to the bathroom. Instead of issuing the familiar sanscrit phrase of the week, our trend-setting friend simply tightened his lips, looked at the ground and... well... nodded. Now, every time you walk by someone in the ashram, you are half-expected to flash them the nod, the non-verbal equivalent of 'Hi! I know you know, and you know I know, and you know that I know that you know, and in my knowing, I know that I know you know, and by so knowing, need not speak, since words are finite and cannot express the knowingness which the two of us (being one) share from such a knowful place. Know what I mean?' 3. DO NOT JUDGE ANYONE, INCLUDING YOURSELF This is the hardest of all commandments to obey. Why? Because spiritual environments not only bring out the best in people, they also bring out the worst. And while the worst is often more difficult to detect than the bliss of people wanting you to notice how blissful they are, the higher you get, the easier it is to notice -- that is, if you are looking for it. Of course, it would be very easy to spend your entire ashram visit noticing all the subtle ego trips going on around you. Resist this temptation with all your might! Do not, I repeat, do not, focus on the stuff that would make good material for this article. You have no right. In fact, you have absolutely no idea why anyone is there, what their motivation is, or how they will learn the kinds of lessons you are absolutely sure they need to learn. In reality, you are most likely seeing your own projections -- those disowned parts of your self that you've refused to acknowledge all these years: your spiritual groupie, your brownie point collector, your junkie for more experience, your suburban yogi , your guilty seeker of God, your con man, your eunuch, your Peter Pan, your resolution maker, your ass watcher, your glutton for humble pie, your seeker of the perfect mate, your closet fanatic, your too patient listener, your definer of ecstasy, your flaming bullshit artist, your know-it-all, your have-it-all, your reader of too many Shirley McLaine books, and your spring-headed bower towards anyone with more than two devotees. All of them are you! Every single one of them! Don't judge them. Love them! Bring them tea! Rub their feet every chance you get! 4. DO NOT THINK THAT THIS IS THE ONLY PLACE WHERE IT IS HAPPENING Ashram aficionados have a marked propensity to think that the grounds they inhabit are somehow more blessed than any place else on earth -- that they are privy to a special command performance by God, revealing himself in thousands of exotic ways for those lucky enough to be there, while thousands, nay millions, of Ed Koch-like souls are stumbling around in uncool places recently vacated by the Power of Life so a very cosmic thing can happen here and only here this weekend. Life, in fact, is often perceived as so good in the ashram, that the rest of the world becomes eerily cast as the 'booby prize.' Indeed, to ashram dwellers, everything else is simply referred to as 'the world,' much like Manhattanites speak of New Jersey. In short, the ashram comes to represent all that is good -- about God, about the Guru, about life itself. Somehow ('and I don't know how, but you could ask anyone who was there this weekend') flowers seem sweeter at the ashram, the moon seems fuller, the air seems cleaner. Even the bread tastes better. If you glimpse a shooting star at night, it's the 'guru's grace.' If you see a double rainbow, it's directly over the meditation hall. I guess it's all in how you look at it. The same shooting star convincing you that your guru is, in fact, the Supreme Guru, was also seen by a plumber named 'Leroy' who just happened to be drinking a beer in between innings of the Mets game. His conclusion? The Mets were gonna win 20 of the next 25 and bring the pennant home to Flushing! What do the signs in the sky (or what we perceive as signs) really mean? Isn't the whole world our ashram? Isn't the whole universe our ashram? Isn't the real issue one of appreciating what is happening all around us? The flowers? The stars? The beggars asking for spare change? Flowers aren't any sweeter at the ashram. It's our willingness to breathe deeply and enjoy them that's different. What's stopping us from being in this place right now? What's stopping us from realizing that the very ground beneath our feet is the promised land -- wherever we happen to be at the time. 5. DO NOT PUT A RED DOT ON YOUR FOREHEAD IF YOU DON'T WANT TO Unless you've been living in a trailer park your whole life, you probably already know what the red dot thing is all about. That's right. The third eye. The sixth chakra. High holiness. INDIA!! While sometimes mistaken for a beauty mark or a random bit of watermelon, the little red dot is actually a useful reminder to focus one's attention on the space between the eyebrows, which, for some people, is where God lives (or if not lives, at least vacations). Nothing wrong with that, now is there? Still, you have to concede that the third eye isn't the only spot on the human body that's sacred. What about the earlobes? The belly button? The nipples? They come from God, too -- not too mention chakras #1 - 5 and the highly under-represented center of consciousness at the crown of the head. Sacred, every one of them! Don't you think that, if the body is the temple of the soul, it follows that our entire physical structure is sacred? Shouldn't we be covered from head to toe with little red dots? And if so, why is it that we routinely quarantine people with measles -- the very people who have selflessly chosen to manifest disease just to remind us to honor our body's ultimate holiness? 6. PLAY WITH THE CHILDREN The only sentient beings free from the collective mentality of ashram life are the children. Children visiting ashrams, in fact, behave the same way the world over no matter what adjectives their elders use for the unspeakable name of God. When they're hungry, they eat. When they're tired, they sleep. They cry when they want to, laugh for no reason, consume ice cream without guilt, and rarely wonder why your picture of the Master is bigger, newer, or better framed. 7. FART AT YOUR OWN RISK If you fart, and there's no one around to hear it in the ashram, did it happen? And if it did happen, does that mean you've been disrespectful? Is the resident Guru able to hear you? And if he or she is meditating, out of the country, or dead, is their guru or their guru's guru able to hear you? And if so, so what? Will you be reborn as a gerbil? Does the Guru fart? And if it's OK for him or her to pass wind, why not you? OK, so it's their ashram and you're a guest. But after all, aren't we all guests here? Even the Guru? Who do they answer to? And if it's not the same one you're answering to, what the hell are you doing getting up at five in the morning and sitting cross-legged? Maybe the real question isn't whether or not it's permissible to fart in the ashram, but how you fart. For instance, if you're farting out of a blatant disregard for the Master's teachings or the sincerity of his or her followers, you might want to reconsider where you're coming from. However, if your farting is just a random release of gas, relax! Give yourself the benefit of the doubt. You see, a typical visit to the ashram often quickens one's ability to 'let go' -- so what you call 'farting' may, in fact, be a timely sign of your evolving spiritual condition. 8. DO NOT THINK YOU ARE HIGHER OR LOWER THAN ANYONE ELSE One of the favorite pastimes of people visiting a spiritual retreat is comparing themselves to everyone else. 'See the guy over there carrying firewood? He's a very old soul -- way older than me. Been on the path for years. And that dude laughing hysterically in the corner? That's Shiva. Oops, he can probably see through me, maybe I better walk around the other way.' Want to save yourself some time? Don't try to figure out how 'on the path' anybody else is. It's impossible. Stare into the eyes all you want, watch for tell-tale signs of liberation, but when it comes right down to it, the only conclusion you'll reach will be your own -- one that may have absolutely nothing to do with the anything but your own projections. Face it, how accurate is your assessment going to be when 98 percent of humanity couldn't tell that the 'carpenter' from Galilee had something special going for him? Indeed, it's not at all unlikely that the beer-bellied, first-time visitor to the ashram you met this morning at breakfast is, at this very moment, being treated like a spiritual mongoloid by everyone who meets him (repeatedly being asked if 'this is your first time') when, in fact, the beer-bellied, first-time visitor is actually the reincarnation of Buddha. 9. DO NOT THINK THAT YOU ARE GOING TO GET SOMETHING Many people visit an ashram because they want to get something. They want 'clarity' or 'contentment,' 'enlightenment' or 'grace,' 'blessings' or 'piece of mind.' At the very least, they want their business to improve or their marriage to be saved. Alas, they miss the point completely: If you try to get, you will lose, left only with the sinking feeling of having just bought $300 worth of lottery tickets only to learn that some electrician from Staten Island just won the whole thing. It's really very simple. You don't go to an ashram (or a Teacher, for that matter) to get. You go to give, to let go -- to relax your grip on the very thing that's been separating you from getting all these years: Your grasping. Your fear. Your well-rehearsed strategy to realize God. 10. DO NOT FEEL COMPELLED TO CHANGE YOUR NAME OK, so your name is Joey. Ever since you were knee high to a can of Cheese Whiz, everyone called you Joey -- as in, 'Hey, Joey, what's goin' down, bro'?' Yeah, you grew up in Brooklyn, cut school once a week, and dated a chick named Angela with very big boobs. Great. So, here you are at the ashram and ba-bing, you run smack into a bunch of dudes with names like Arjuna, Govinda, Namdev,Shanti, Krishna. 'Hey,' you think to yourself, 'maybe they got something I don't.' Guess what? They do. They have a spiritual name given to them by their Guru -- names that make their mothers somewhat close-lipped around the canasta table. And while these names are clearly given with a purpose, the fact of the matter is -- they are irrelevant. Do you think the people in India who have spiritual experiences get their names changed to Eddie, Gino, Edna, or Shirley ? Hey, what difference does it make? You are not your name -- even if your namesake was enlightened. It doesn't matter what they call you, when it's time to go, you're gone. The only name worth knowing at that time is God's name -- and that, my friend, no matter how many mantras you've memorized, can never be pronounced.....

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Date: Thurs, Oct 05, 2000 at 21:02:41 (GMT) From: Scott T. Email: None To: Jim Subject: The APPARENT Dettmers paradox Message:

Geez Jim, I can't tell whether yer fer 'im er agin 'im. I guess I can understand how someone might arrive at the conclusions that he has done, and I don't really blame him all that much. I don't admire him, but I don't blame him. Let me put it this way, I wouldn't vote for him in a political campaign if he were running against a reasonably decent fellow. Funny how he reminds me of Richard Hatch, what? They're even in the same beeswax. What really interests me is the apparent deference you seem to give him. I think it's probably the Canadian shining through the libertarian atheist. --Scott

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Date: Thurs, Oct 05, 2000 at 21:17:55 (GMT) From: Jim Email: None To: Scott T. Subject: Am I for 'em or agin' 'em? Message:

Scott, Funny, I thought I was pretty clear. Guess not. I think that Michael's hiding. He's hiding from us, he's hiding from Maharaji and he's hiding from himself. I also think that he's chosen a career that plays into that self-deception quite nicely. Having said that, I'm the first to admit that I might not be any different myself in the circumstances. As someone reminded me this morning, it's easy to say what others can or should do morally, what risks or sacrifices they should bear. Mind you, Michael is in his own boat and I do think that I can see what he should do morally. He's not doing it and that really disappoints me. And why does it disappoint me? Because I do like Michael after talking with him as much as I have. I also think that he'd be a fantastic servant of the truth here if he only woke up. Does that make sense?

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Date: Fri, Oct 06, 2000 at 03:55:54 (GMT) From: Scott T. Email: None To: Jim Subject: Am I for 'em or agin' 'em? Message:

Jim: Makes a lot of sense, and I agree. --Scott

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Date: Thurs, Oct 05, 2000 at 19:41:45 (GMT) From: Bin Liner Email: None To: Jim Subject: The APPARENT Dettmers paradox Message:

You need Sergeants as well as Generals to win wars.

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Date: Thurs, Oct 05, 2000 at 17:13:39 (GMT) From: Joe Email: None To: Jim Subject: Great analysis Jim, and thanks, finally..... Message:

I was wondering when you were going to say that and I think you are absolutely right. By the way, I really don't consider my service as a community coordinator the high point of my professional career. What do you think the Q stands for?

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Date: Thurs, Oct 05, 2000 at 17:34:52 (GMT) From: Jim Email: None To: Joe Subject: I don't normally change flattering subject lines Message:

But I did this time. I'm sure you're kidding but, in an abundance of caution, I'll say that I never meant to imply that you thought your CC years were the high point of your professional life. They were, mind you, but ... And the 'Q'? I dunno ...

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Date: Wed, Oct 04, 2000 at 11:55:22 (GMT) From: GAC Email: None To: CHR Subject: Hush Fund? Message:

CHR, Everything blew up on Deacon Dettmers when the Corporate Information concerning the Church of Elan Vital started coming out. Hey - welcome to the 21st Century. Public Records Rule! Poor Pams.... my heart just bleeds for their destitute situations. BTW - Have YOU received any $$$$ from the Hush Fund

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Date: Wed, Oct 04, 2000 at 12:31:46 (GMT) From: CHR Email: None To: GAC Subject: Hush Fund? Message:

The only thing I ever received from Elan Vital was a couple of pieces of furniture and a large credit card debt, courtesy of the ashram close down.

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Date: Wed, Oct 04, 2000 at 19:47:12 (GMT) From: cq Email: None To: CHR Subject: come on in, the waters ... murky Message:

CHR, it's never been safe to post here, that's half the fun of it. People post for a variety of reasons, and if you find yourself objecting to their posts, well, what do you do? You do what you've done. You tell 'em. This place is what we make of it. So keep telling it like it is, won't you? takes all sorts to make a world. (and to make a good forum ...)

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Date: Wed, Oct 04, 2000 at 01:30:11 (GMT) From: Salam Email: None To: Jim Subject: My latest talk with Dettmers Message:

Like I said before and will always say it, Dettmers is full of bullshit. All he sees is his fuckedup confidentiality agreement with some ass hole lawyer(sorry Jim). He has no balls to walk over it any say what he knows. Spinelss worm. If that all what he cares about, his friggin bussiness, then let him fuck off and do it, stop talking about him. Personally I think he likes all this talk about him being the good ol 'meditator'. Go and burry yourself m fucking d.

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Date: Wed, Oct 04, 2000 at 01:36:14 (GMT) From: Salam Email: None To: Salam Subject: In fact: YVES KEEP IT UP..nt Message:

nt

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Date: Wed, Oct 04, 2000 at 00:05:53 (GMT) From: Scott T. Email: None To: Jim Subject: My latest talk with Dettmers Message:

Jim: But MD wants to move on. He believes that any breach of his confidentiality clause could do thunderous damage to his current business. This is really the heart of it. Personally I think there are a lot bigger fish to fry than Maharaji too. My only interest in him is due to the fact that 'I' was seduced, and that he seems a sort of test case for the way a middle-of-the-road authoritarian cult can muddy the waters. It's easier to investigate this cult precisely because it is so banal. It's also interesting because the flaw in MD's philosophical underpinnings seems to leave the barn door open for this sort of thing... and possibly worse. I think the Heidegger/Gadamer doubletalk is befuddling a lot of people... but only because they want or need to be befuddled. On the whole it's not very convincing. It's just that there's not a very glib counter-argument. --Scott

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Date: Tues, Oct 03, 2000 at 23:35:18 (GMT) From: Joe Email: None To: Jim Subject: Someone else. Message:

I expressed my disappointment that JM and Anth are the only former PAMs to really join this effort to deconstruct and, yes, topple a predatory cult and its leader. But what's new about that? Md knows my feelings; I know his. (Buy the way, I left out KK. Is there anyone else?) There's Bob Mishler, rest his soul. And he at a time when he was truly alone. It took real courage. He could have just 'moved on.' And Mishler didn't even get a serverence package. He left with just his integrity, I guess. Part of this is about courage, isn't it? It's about standing up and doing the right thing because you know it's right. If everybody just 'moved on' and 'thought it was futile,' nothing much would change would it? What is that about evil flourishing when good men do nothing? Something like that.

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Date: Tues, Oct 03, 2000 at 22:06:01 (GMT) From: JohnT Email: None To: Jim Subject: The heart of darkness Message:

Thanks for that Jim, I'm afraid that to this 'outside observer' Dettmers' story looks increasingly thin. Pleasant and personable he may be; nicer by far, than I, perhaps; but I think he is filth. A ruthless conmen needs to have charm and to be plausible. But charming as he may be, a ruthless conman is shallow and trivial right through his oh!-so-very-thin-soul. Strong words perhaps - and I hope some decency stirs in the vile little breast of the disgraceful Dettmers. Perhaps he can bring himself to see what the rest of the world will surely see, if he fails to wise up - and quick! Look here Dettmers - LOOK AT WHAT I SEE - I see you sitting pretty cash wise having helped to screw up other people's lives and perpetrate the worship of a false god and fraudulent messiah; along with all the vile abuse that came along as an integral part of that towering and egregious falsity. Vile? Read on 'man'. It looks to me like once you realised that it couldn't last you bailed out with a pay-off for your silence about the racket - and oh! YOU KNEW IT ALL, RIGHT? Of course you did - what was your position again in that foul pretense? CEO in the service of the One True God. Yeah. Chief hypocrite, that was you, wasn't it Dettmers? You've sold A LOT of people down the river, Dettmers. To wax fat off of their misfortune. Like your Lord, you feed on other people with your falsity, lies and pretense. But with less excuse than Rawat. You were no child manipulated by your corrupt family. You were a man who cynically manipulated his own family to further your opportunistic money-grubbing 'career' in hypocrisy and service to a false god and his most cruel and unconscionable con. YOU KNEW IT WAS A LIE AND YOU WERE A DILIGENT SERVANT OF THAT FALSITY. Now you do as little as you possibly can to clear up the damage, while appearing to be enough of a 'nice guy' to avoid the worst of the heat. IT'S NOT WORKING, DETTMERS. Listen. It is clear that as we peel away the layers from the cult we will descend from the naive and the honestly deluded, towards the heart of darkness. There we will meet the depraved and cynical operatives who rode the fraud to feather their own nests. Charming and depraved conmen. Filth. Dettmers is the first, it seems, to volunteer himself for that most profoundly humiliating and inglorious role. For what? For a slice of the wealth leached from the good hearted victims of his and his master's fraud. SHAME ON YOU DETTMERS. SHAME ON YOU!

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Date: Tues, Oct 03, 2000 at 22:05:12 (GMT) From: Roger eDrek Email: drek@oz.net To: Jim Subject: Pure and total horseshit! Message:

Pure and total horseshit! The confirmation of not one but several severance compensation packages tightly coupled with a confidentiality agreement which avoids any damaging kissing and telling is a rather stark, but not surprising, revelation about Michael Dettmers - he has either sold out or he is still in bed with Maharaji. And I contend the latter to be the case. I am practically certain I've seen Dettmers in the exclusive front and center seats at least one program in the 90's. Furthermore, Dettmers' list of business clients in the late 80's and 90's suggests that he is still very much networked into the Maharaji camp following. It appears to me that Dettmers might not have left Maharaji in a spirit of disgust as many of us did. Rather, Maharaji restructured his organization and Dettmers got away with his golden parachute. Reading everything I've read about Dettmers I think he's still a premie. I wonder if presented with lucrative severance packages would I have walked away from them for the purpose of maintaining my personal integrity? Sometimes I think not when I consider the damage to my life and career for following the Lord of the Universe for too many years. Excuse my indignation, but I cannot so easily sweep aside the serious allegations and issues about the Maharaji's wasteful extravagance, the plight of the ashram premies, the slave labor DECA premies, the sexual molestation of young children at the hands of Maharaji's priests, and all the rest. Sure, sure, sure, Dettmers helped smuggle the letter to Maharaji and Dettmers is taking the high road by not dishing dirt. But, it appears that Michael Dettmers was paid off! I think that Dettmers saw the abyss when Maharaji decided to reduce expenses and overhead by restructuring the organization and Dettmers had become accustomed to a lifestyle of success and privilege. What's the encore to running a $100 million dollar Swiss based foundation when any serious inquiry by prospective employers will result in the revelation of a rather embarrassing little thing called the truth - cult member deluxe! No, Dettmers saw the way out and it was to take the bone that the master offered. Maharaji and Company siphoned off the best years of our lives with his sick charade. And Dettmers was a party to it. And Maharaji is so puckish that he has the audacity to flaunt his obscene wealth by collecting, of all things, expensive wristwatches with Maharaji boasts about it to his followers all the while asking for still more and more. Innocent people's lives were ruined. People killed themselves. People handed over their trust funds, their entire paychecks, their families, their children. For what? So, Maharaji and his entourage could have the highlife. So, that Bob Jacobs could create shell corporations to avoid taxation on these ill-gotten gains. So, Jagdeo could retire quietly to a small little village in India. So, Dettmers could have a quiet severance package. Does anybody see anything wrong with this? But, Dettmers has made amends by smuggling in a letter to Maharaji. This is not to slight the author of that letter nor the issue surrounding that letter, but Dettmers' cover letter to Maharaji was pathetically contrite and very transparent. And now Dettmers' feels like he has done his Boy Scout good deed and all the injured parties have satisfactory closure. HORSESHIT! Give it up, Mike. You've had it cushy for too long and it's always been on the backs of good honest but deluded common and ordinary premies at the bottom of the pyramid. And, I believe based on what you still say, what you've done and what you got that nothing has really changed for you. You think that you can still play the same game on us some twenty or thirty years later. No, not anymore. While it took many of us extra time, some of us have grown up and we no longer believe everything we are told and we are just now beginning to, once again, think for ourselves. That was your advantage then - we were told not to think. My Dettmers' page might have started this and maybe not - I don't give a shit. The page stands. Dettmers has never said or done anything to convince me otherwise. And, the confirmation of a severance package tied to a confidentiality agreement says it all.

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Date: Wed, Oct 04, 2000 at 00:33:02 (GMT) From: Nigel Email: None To: Roger eDrek Subject: I don't know, Rog... MD was a premie Message:

You said: he has either sold out or he is still in bed with Maharaji. The ex-cult thing takes time (decades, even?) to work out, and - like M says - it isn't easy being rich. God, it must be so hard.. Hmm, I tend to agree - and MD might be neither one nor t'other - Rog, but then again, I'm not sure. You can be as rich as the creases on my face when I chuckle out loud at the funny old cult we knew so well, but I don't believe any of the PAMs have any more of a divinely-guided easy exit from the magical bullshit than any of us. Dettmers doesn't know what the fuck his life is all about any more than you or I.. Perhaps he's in pain over all this?!:) But I wish he'd admit it, seeing as he used to advise us all. Forget Maharaji and his (supposed) sincerity. What about yours, Michael? Do you have a healthier guru-free perspective these days? Would you like to talk about it? Here is your stage, my former teacher... Perhaps that is the coming clean MD needs to deal with. We listened to waffling initiators like him for hours, months and years at a fucking time. They taught us every bloody thing they thought they knew and thought we needed to know. Does he know different now? If so, he should listen to us now, if he's genuinely interested in being of any help to those who now need it. If not, he should piss off and stop apologizing for himself, and stop using Jim as his personal crash barrier.. But - yea - being rich is not in itself happiness (as M has now confirmed - and as we all discovered when we found to our chagrin we didn't have that second two million bucks handy to protect the first two mill?) And, yeah, we shouldn't condemn rich people just for being rich, complacent, self-serving conservatives. It's probably in their genes - they can't help it. But there are very good reasons many of society's poorest might want to do that, anyway. Condemn them, I mean. (Shit, they'll all be jumping up and down and rioting next! and I speak as a bona fide Toxteth ratepayer, and we'll have Michael frigging Heseltine planting trees all over and swinging from them but doing nowt for the greater good.) BTW: I avoid political threads these days, but I see a lot of socially excluded, down-at-heel people where I live - for no fault of their own - and I get angry at the 'inclusive' fucking bullshit coming from central government. But I'd sooner be poor with integrity, any day. Gotta go, the boat is overparked..

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Date: Tues, Oct 03, 2000 at 23:03:14 (GMT) From: Bin Liner Email: None To: Roger eDrek Subject: Pure and total horseshit! Message:

What about the people who ran with him right at the beginning, before the corporate types & their 'professional' ways threw up the firewalls. Must be some old disaffected 'bringers of the lord to the west' out there who were too spaced out to throw away all the old cheque stubs. I know you're there friends,come on ,puke it all up, you'll feel much better for it, & you'll be doing humanity a REAL service.

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Date: Tues, Oct 03, 2000 at 19:40:54 (GMT) From: Buzz Email: None To: Jim Subject: My latest talk with Dettmers Message:

So he thinks his lifestle is appropriate for a perfect master. Even if he was a perfect master which he is nowhere near,how about showing a little bit of humility,ie. Christ or Buddha as an example. Your a very good master of how to take advantage of people thats all!!Yogananada makes you look like a first grade teacher!! Go and play with your boats and planes and leave teaching spirituality to those who know. You and the rest of the shit like rajneesh, da free john,all of you that take advantage of people looking for the truth, you all will get your justice soon.

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Date: Tues, Oct 03, 2000 at 19:39:17 (GMT) From: Lotus Eater Email: None To: Jim Subject: Dear Premies.....nice to see you again Message:

At a friends urging, I read the archived posts of Michael Dettmers, a lot has been said, and I wont recap, however there was one little piece of information I found rather fascinating: That Michael, rather proudly, claims authorship of the idea that Maharaji stop using the term 'premie'. I remember when this happened. Event after Event, Maharaji would tell us how we didn't really deserve the name premie, and that is why he wasn't calling us that anymore. That gets me thinking, you can imagine, how can the Master justify being mean to his premies and not saying hello nicely, well obviously, the Master is perfect, so the premies must be fucked. Not that his head is being twisted with the 'east meets west' syndrome of M & M. I even ended up feeling a little sorry for Maharaji as I imagined the scenario: I'm God, really I am Prove it Well I'm really brilliant Oh Yeah Well, Michael Dettmers, have you done a stocktake on the results on other people of your life so far? Why not accept the chance of a bit of free therapy amongst people who would understand you and have a bit of a chat, not on 'spilling the beans, or toppling a previous employer' but just as another ex. We all benefit. Lesley.

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Date: Tues, Oct 03, 2000 at 18:55:42 (GMT) From: Joe Email: None To: Jim Subject: My latest talk with Dettmers Message:

When he knew him, Maharaji honestly believed in himself and thought that his luxurious lifestyle was nothing less than appropriate for the Perfect Master. And the significance of this is.........???? If anything, this makes all of this even more alarming, that Maharaji was do deluded he believed his own hype. But the bottom line is, the damage this caused, and continues to cause, whether he was intentionally deceitful or deluded, is the same. So Jacobs insisted that someone who'd worked as hard as he'd seen MD work for all those years deserved a little somethin' somethin'. MD couldn't say no and Jacobs through the confidentiality clause in as the product of simple common sense. Apparently there were several such packages. And what does Michael think that the other members of Maharaji's cult who contributed everything and worked very hard deserved? How about the truth? Do they deserve that?

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Date: Wed, Oct 04, 2000 at 00:46:30 (GMT) From: Scott T. Email: None To: Joe Subject: Two great posts in one thread (nt). Message:

(nt)

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Date: Tues, Oct 03, 2000 at 23:10:13 (GMT) From: Nige Email: fitzroy@liverpool.ac.uk To: Joe Subject: Well said, 'nuff said! (nt) Message:

nt

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Date: Tues, Oct 03, 2000 at 19:47:15 (GMT) From: Way Email: None To: Joe Subject: You're right, Joe,... Message:

no type of opologist attitude toward Rawat and the cult can stand up to an honest and realistic viewpoint. Dettmers is doing nothing more or less than rationalizing for his own self-benefit. It's so obvious. The thing that galls me the most is that he claims to have a history of strong philanthropic feelings. Apparently the harm that cults do to people is no longer of any concern to him. He should now either shut up or come clean. It's true that Yves is trying to force the issues again, but Dettmers doesn't have to get on the witness stand. No comment is better than excuses.

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Date: Tues, Oct 03, 2000 at 22:02:54 (GMT) From: Jim Email: None To: Way Subject: Well, so much for ex-premie journalism Message:

Hey, you guys, I don't make 'em up, I only write 'em up. Sheesh!

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Date: Tues, Oct 03, 2000 at 18:26:14 (GMT) From: Joe Email: None To: Jim Subject: Correcting Michael Dettmers about his resume Message:

Just for the record, I, personally, went to Michael Dettmers website, Gylanix Solutions, and confirmed on the day I posted to Yves, myself personally, that Michael has REINSTATED the 'Swiss Foundation' reference on his resume. I took no one else's statement for granted. As I said, I was surprised, because on an earlier visit to Michael's website I noted, and stated here just be fair, that he had removed the reference. Michael, if you keep that on your resume, you have to expect us ex-premies will comment. Sorry, this bothered you, Michael, but this is very legitimate comment. I'm not surprised about the confidentiality agreement deterring Michael. It is what I suspected all along. It's what cults do. Just look at Scientology. As for 'toppling Mahararji,' I frankly can't see that as much of a motivation. The fact is, there are still lots of people stuck in that cult, which Michael knows is falsely presenting Maharaji as some kind of diety. That's where the record ought to be set straight and those are the people that matter to me in all of this. Jim, do us all a favor and stop being Michael's messenger to this forum. Let him say whatever he wants to himself. It's demeaning to you and to the rest of us.

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Date: Tues, Oct 03, 2000 at 19:40:01 (GMT) From: Jim Email: None To: Joe Subject: Really, Joe! Message:

Joe, Funny, I don't feel demeaned. Actually, I called MD as a favour to someone. This is what he had to say and I thought y'all might want to hear it. You know, brings a little 'closure' into our lives? Ha ha ha.....

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Date: Tues, Oct 03, 2000 at 18:07:59 (GMT) From: cq Email: None To: Jim Subject: Thanks for that, Jim Message:

So, '...in MD's opinion, Maharaji would never be vulnerable to any further scrutiny from the IRS or anyone. There already were a couple of IRS audits back in MD's time and DLM / EV sailed through just fine thanks to Jacobs.' But surely, in Dettmer's time, EV could still get away with claiming 'religious' status from the IRS. Now that they've publicly stated it is NOT a religion, Jacob's defences (whatever they were) could be significantly weakened. Has anyone asked the IRS why they allow EV 'religious status'?

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Date: Tues, Oct 03, 2000 at 17:59:23 (GMT) From: Jim Email: None To: Jim Subject: I meant 'threw', of course (nt) Message:

ggg

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Date: Tues, Oct 03, 2000 at 17:32:03 (GMT) From: suchabanana Email: None To: Everyone Subject: Technique #5: quick enlightenment revealed! New!! Message:

The previous 4 techniques have now been simplified into one simple, easy mantra, guantanteed to bring quick results -- and enlightenment to all sincere and conscious seekers of truth! 1. go to: http://www.westportyachtsales.com 2. then click: yacht brokerage 3. then click: featured vessels 4. then click: Wesport shipyard {fourth from top of list} 112' (Westport Shipyard - motor yacht with Pilothouse) Then, go to your drop-down menus and enlarge the view/image of the yacht to completely fill your computer screen. Or, simply drag the corners of the image to enlarge it sufficiently. Now: As you gaze intently at the $7.5 million-dollar yacht, silently repeat this short mantra (imparted from the lips of the satguru himself) 500 times: The MOTHER OF ALL MAHAMANTRAS 'It's not easy to be rich!' 'It's not easy to be rich!' 'It's not easy to be rich!' 'It's not easy to be rich!' 'It's not easy to be rich!' 'It's not easy to be rich!' 'It's not easy to be rich!' 'It's not easy to be rich!' 'It's not easy to be rich!' 'It's not easy to be rich!' 'It's not easy to be rich!' 'It's not easy to be rich!' 'It's not easy to be rich!' 'It's not easy to be rich!' 'It's not easy to be rich!' 'It's not easy to be rich!' 'It's not easy to be rich!' 'It's not easy to be rich!' 'It's not easy to be rich!' 'It's not easy to be rich!' 'It's not easy to be rich!' 'It's not easy to be rich!' 'It's not easy to be rich!' 'It's not easy to be rich!' 'It's not easy to be rich!' 'It's not easy to be rich!' 'It's not easy to be rich!' 'It's not easy to be rich!' 'It's not easy to be rich!' 'It's not easy to be rich!' 'It's not easy to be rich!' 'It's not easy to be rich!' 'It's not easy to be rich!' 'It's not easy to be rich!' 'It's not easy to be rich!' 'It's not easy to be rich!' 'It's not easy to be rich!' 'It's not easy to be rich!' 'It's not easy to be rich!' 'It's not easy to be rich!' 'It's not easy to be rich!' 'It's not easy to be rich!' etc. This supreme mantra is like dewdrops of nectar which will dispel all illusions and ignorance at the lotus feet of truth and knowledge. It is also effective while gazing at other suitable material or symbolic objects of devotion (for instance, a photo of the Gulfstream jet, the blueprint of the residence, even a photo of M. himself) This mantra has been revealed to you free of charge. However, if you are then filled with gratitude and appreciation, and wish to show your appreciation through participation, then please write a substantial check (tax deductible) and endorse it to your local non-denominational homeless shelter, or to a home for abused children. Thank you, dear brothers and sisters. Peace

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Date: Tues, Oct 03, 2000 at 17:38:26 (GMT) From: suchabanana Email: None To: all Subject: guaranteed (typo) nt Message:

nt

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Date: Tues, Oct 03, 2000 at 15:07:25 (GMT) From: gerry Email: None To: Everyone Subject: One simple Objective Message:

'Knowledge transcends the borders of language and nationality and cultures. What exists from the perspective of Knowledge is to take this lifetime and to achieve that one, simple objective: to be fulfilled.' Goober - Barcelona, Spain 1994 This is sort of a far cry from 'enlightenment' or 'realizing gawd' aint it? This is a cult who has lost its balls. Goober's shootin' blanks. And this crap got him a new yacht? Shit, I'm in the wrong business...

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Date: Wed, Oct 04, 2000 at 00:18:07 (GMT) From: Jerry Email: None To: gerry Subject: One simple Objective Message:

This is sort of a far cry from 'enlightenment' or 'realizing gawd' aint it? That's because nobody's been enlightened or realized gawd with Knowledge -- (Right, people? Any takers on this? Any enlightened souls who beg to differ?). I wonder what he's going to say about the 'perspective' of Knowledge when it's just as clear that nobody's been 'fulfilled' by it, either.

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Date: Tues, Oct 03, 2000 at 15:04:29 (GMT) From: Way Email: None To: Everyone Subject: Rawat's current message Message:

There have been reports on Rawat's current European tour, both at ELK and here on this Forum. From these reports, it appears that Rawat's message remains essentially unchanged. It can be summarized by the following 12 salient points. Each of these points are paraphrased from directly quoted material from the two most recent programs: 1. Most people in this world live without purpose and fulfillment. 2. People try to find fulfillment in their plans, their families, and their careers - but they will fail. 3. Fulfillment is possible, however; in fact, it is 'by design.' 4. Maharaji is the Master who brings the Knowledge that brings fulfillment. There has always been The Master on earth and he always says the same thing: 'Follow me if your heart concurs, otherwise, don't.' 5. The Knowledge is not a theory. It is a easy to get, but hard to keep. 6. The Knowledge is like a seed that always needs the attention of the gardener. The Master is constantly needed. So needed are the services of the Master, that Mr. Rawat's schedule is packed full. 7. People who have Knowledge are feeling machines that constantly need that good feeling. They are like musical instruments that are constantly going out-of-tune. The master has to follow his students around and constantly retune them. 8. When the students are retuned, they realize what Knowledge is all about, it is the simple gratitude for being alive. The greatest success in life is the breath going in and the breath going out. In the Master's presense, the gratitude for life brings about the true fulfillment of life. 9. After the students hear the message of the Master, they feel that beautiful feeling and they realize that they had forgotten it. Without Rawat, they have been like out-of-tune honky-tonk pianos in a run-down bar, and with Rawat, they are now concert pianos. 10. Simply following the Master, Mr. Rawat, and being with him is the only true fulfillment of human existence. (Videos of the master are close, but not quite sufficient). Being in the front row is best, because Mr. Rawat gives you loving glances. 11. The only problem is that the students are bound to forget the feeling and will need retuning very soon. In the meantime, they can keep partially in touch, anywhere in the whole world, for a mere $15.00 an hour. 12. Fortunately, Rawat detects that 'the wind of change is blowing.' (Mr. Rawat has been detecting this wind for decades now and exactly what change he is refering to remains a bit of a mystery). Note: nos. 9-11 are premie quotes, not Rawat quotes, but they mirror exactly what Rawat had just said. In essence, then, Elan Vital is a simple personality cult where the Master and the devotees come together and share that beautiful feeling of being grateful to be alive and still breathing. It is very interesting to note that Mr. Rawat's message differs vastly from that of his father, Shri Hans. It appears, from the website of Sat Pal, that Shri Hans's legacy is being perpetrated much more accurately by the oldest son. Whereas Mr. Rawat virtually never explains in his discourses what Knowledge actually is, Sat Pal seems happy to explain all the varied intricacies of God-realization.

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Date: Tues, Oct 03, 2000 at 18:20:07 (GMT) From: cq Email: None To: Way Subject: simple gratitude for being alive? Message:

As if the Maha deserves gratitude for that! 'The greatest success in life is the breath going in and the breath going out.' Well, without it, you're not going to achieve much are you? And no doubt the Maha would again like to take credit for the fact you're still breathing! He hasn't lost his old 'perfect master' delusions of grandeur, has he? The whole trip is simply to give this (financially successful) charismatic 'non'-guru the credit for our existence! What dependency! What a crutch! What idiots we were to get suckered into it!

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Date: Tues, Oct 03, 2000 at 17:21:40 (GMT) From: Gregg Email: None To: Way Subject: Worshipping His Blandness Message:

Twelve points! This thing is more complicated than I thought! Well-done, Way (and gerry, above). The 'cultness' of the GMJ religion has always been there, of course, and is just more nuanced now. But what is so fascinating about the cult now its lack of content. There is no there there. Yet it endures! Kind of. It's like we're all sitting around a dying dictator's deathbed, wondering what surprises await as the whole thing unravels and expires.

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Date: Tues, Oct 03, 2000 at 15:11:06 (GMT) From: gerry Email: None To: Way Subject: Hey Way you stole my thunder... Message:

Well, I was slaving over my post above while you so stealthily snuck yours in under the radar. I think we're saying the same thing, though.

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Date: Tues, Oct 03, 2000 at 15:22:00 (GMT) From: Way Email: None To: gerry Subject: To gerry: synchronisity Message:

Our points are identical!

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Date: Tues, Oct 03, 2000 at 08:07:00 (GMT) From: Jean-Michel Email: None To: Everyone Subject: That great quote deserved a special place Message:

that's why I've just updated that page on ex-premie.org. Something about Prempal Rawat's mega-problems

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Date: Tues, Oct 03, 2000 at 06:01:11 (GMT) From: steve Email: the_avenger55@hotmail.com To: Everyone Subject: Why hasn't the plugged been pulled yet? Message:

Why hasn't the plug been pulled yet? It has taken me 28 years, all of my adult life, to almost figure out what's going on. This period includes four serious hospitalizations on psychiatric wards, including one in which I fractured my heel bone to the point where I cannot walk properly and some other bones as well because I was following my interpretation of Prem Pal Singh Rawat's teachings. Consider that I had no psychiatric history before receiving the four techniques. I say that I've almost figured it out because this guy seems to have more than nine lives, which would be at least nine more than he deserves. He's like a stunt pilot lately who goes into what seems to be fatal tailspins but seems to be able to pull himself out at the last second. Until today, elanvital.org showed no satellite events planned after October 1, and after seeing the last few satellite events, reading this forum, and learning about the truth, I thought the end was imminent. However, the elanvital.org site now shows events planned to October 29. I know two of the sweetest people you would ever want to meet who had the four techniques and committed suicide. Through friends and these websites I've heard of lots of other cases. Either the lord of the universe is a very callous and cruel lord, or something's very fucked up here. Prem Pal Singh Rawat's teachings have been somewhat effective in my life, but at a high cost, including but not limited to the factors mentioned above. He seems to me to be a minimalist, that is to say that he does teach the truth but in such a slow and cumbersome way as to make it analogous to Chinese water torture. As far as the aloofness and wealth are concerned, I get the very strong impression that he does not have one friend in the world. I even think that Charles Manson would have the sense to stay away from him if given the choice. Either he exists in tremendous pain due to loneliness or he somehow manages to have joy knowing that he can never have a friend. I don't understand how the latter case could be true. Somebody help me out with this. I know that many people close to him are desparately looking for a way out, i.e. a replacement. What's taking so long? Why hasn't it happened already? Every second wasted in this matter is an eternity to me in so far as the arrival of justice on this beautiful planet Earth. Love To You All Steve

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Date: Tues, Oct 03, 2000 at 09:46:23 (GMT) From: Steve M Email: None To: steve Subject: this is a new steve not Hal nt Message:

nt

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Date: Tues, Oct 03, 2000 at 06:01:11 (GMT) From: steve Email: the_avenger55@hotmail.com To: Everyone Subject: Why hasn't the plugged been pulled yet? Message:

Why hasn't the plug been pulled yet? It has taken me 28 years, all of my adult life, to almost figure out what's going on. This period includes four serious hospitalizations on psychiatric wards, including one in which I fractured my heel bone to the point where I cannot walk properly and some other bones as well because I was following my interpretation of Prem Pal Singh Rawat's teachings. Consider that I had no psychiatric history before receiving the four techniques. I say that I've almost figured it out because this guy seems to have more than nine lives, which would be at least nine more than he deserves. He's like a stunt pilot lately who goes into what seems to be fatal tailspins but seems to be able to pull himself out at the last second. Until today, elanvital.org showed no satellite events planned after October 1, and after seeing the last few satellite events, reading this forum, and learning about the truth, I thought the end was imminent. However, the elanvital.org site now shows events planned to October 29. I know two of the sweetest people you would ever want to meet who had the four techniques and committed suicide. Through friends and these websites I've heard of lots of other cases. Either the lord of the universe is a very callous and cruel lord, or something's very fucked up here. Prem Pal Singh Rawat's teachings have been somewhat effective in my life, but at a high cost, including but not limited to the factors mentioned above. He seems to me to be a minimalist, that is to say that he does teach the truth but in such a slow and cumbersome way as to make it analogous to Chinese water torture. As far as the aloofness and wealth are concerned, I get the very strong impression that he does not have one friend in the world. I even think that Charles Manson would have the sense to stay away from him if given the choice. Either he exists in tremendous pain due to loneliness or he somehow manages to have joy knowing that he can never have a friend. I don't understand how the latter case could be true. Somebody help me out with this. I know that many people close to him are desparately looking for a way out, i.e. a replacement. What's taking so long? Why hasn't it happened already? Every second wasted in this matter is an eternity to me in so far as the arrival of justice on this beautiful planet Earth. Love To You All Steve

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Date: Tues, Oct 03, 2000 at 14:28:00 (GMT) From: Salam Email: None To: steve Subject: A thing or two on cults and the law. Message:

eg. church of Scientology. http://www.xenu.net/archive/CourtFiles/ http://news.bbc.co.uk/hi/english/world/europe/newsid_443000/443271.stm Trials Not so long ago the Church of Scientology in Norway were convicted and had to pay 600.000 NOK (approx. 80.000$) in compensation and trialcosts to a former member. The church had tricked several hundred thousand NOK out of the man while he was in a difficult life situation. In November 1996 15 members of the church in France were convicted with jailsentences and fines for provoking one of the sect members to commit suicide. Patrice Vic jumped out of the window 24th of march 1988, and the court found it proven that it was the sects methods which led to the suicide. They were also convicted for 21 other criminal offences such as fraud, swindle, and so on. The Church of Scientology has been banned in Greece. The Greek district attorney T. Canellopoulos said that the church is leading a 'merciless and immoral war against critics with all means.' Bill Clinton has on the other hand come the thetans to rescue by joining the choir of Hollywood celebrities, who shout out that the German government is acting against the human rights by suppressing the church of Scientology. Thetans has become a curse and a plague in Germany, where they among other things have been recruiting in kindergartens and used the personality test to train police officers. The German government don`t want Scientologs in public positions, but Hollywood have given Clinton winning votes, and that he has to repay. The war against the freedom of speech Religious Technology Center has been fighting very hard to protect their rather profitable copyright to Ron Hubbards secret scriptures. After a period with good wind in the thetans warsails through numerous raids and lawsuits against netusers in the US, the battle-field were moved to Holland when RTC wanted to shut down and ban a newsgroup who among other things discussed scientology. According to RTC, it`s enough to mention the word 'scientology' and it means you are misusing a trademark. A judge demanded that the author Karin Spaink, who had been part of publicising Hubbards criminal secrets, should hand over everything, including private emails. This attempt of censorship with the support of the law met very strong reactions because it was philosophy and religion that were denied a free forum. The war became even more intense after several hundred netusers demonstrated civil disobedience by putting out the documents on their web-pages. The Thetans started a dead agent-campaign against Spaink by hang her out as a member of the Ku Klux Klan. In Holland the Church of Scientology got their first juridical setback when the disobedient netusers didn`t get convicted. From there the battle-field moved to Sweden after a journey through Finland, where the largest anonymity-server on the net (anon@penet.fi) was forced to close. Thetans got a courtorder for obtaining the identity on a critic who used that server in order to be anonymous. Owner Helsingius then chose to shut down the server since he no longer could guarantee anonymity for his 500.000 customers. After this there popped up a guy by the name Zenon Panoussis, in Stockholm, with the top-secret NOT-documents (New Era Dianetics for Operating Thetans) on his web-pages. The war is close to climax, this time in form of an incredible entertaining circus, thanks to Zenons good knowledge of the Swedish laws. Thetans came flying over the Atlantic Ocean, as they did to Holland, and acted like Sweden was a US state. In the first run the thetans got a Swedish court to issue a search warrant for Zenons home in order to find copyrighted documents. But Zenon had backups buried in his garden, copies he then delivered to the Parliament (Riksdagen) and the Court of Law. According to Swedish law documents like this automatically become available to the public, both nationally and internationally. Thereby everyone could order their own copies of Hubbards occult secrets from the Swedish authorities. The Thetans came with sharp warnings that non initiated could die by reading the magical texts, but this only increased the popularity, and orders for the documents came from all over the world, and Hubbards Word was multiplying itself around the globe via internet. The Scientologs stood guards in the parliament building (Riksdagen) and pretended they were reading documents they themselves weren`t allowed to read(they were Pre-Clears, non initiated thetans), in order to occupy the places so that nobody else got to see them. Then there were only made more copies of them and the scientologs had to use an own reading room, because everyone were entitled to have access to public documents. Then there were burglars coming who made their way into the building in the night. For the first time in history documents were stolen from the Swedish Parliament. But Zenon had his backups, and the Xerox machine went full speed ahead. After a while the documents had to been ordered anonymously because the thetanic secret service sent their elite-forces to harass all who were curious about the documents. In the meantime the employees had to cope with terror phonecalls, faxbombs and unpleasant visits from what obviously were mentally unstable Scientologs. A member of the American congress, Carlos Moorhead, sent a threat letter to the Parliaments President and demanded that she should break Swedish laws in favour of the Church of Scientology. Executions The most serious thing a opponent to scientology can face is a so-called R2-45 audit, which means 'a-bullet-in-the-head-therapy'. This method is seldom used, and is reserved for ex-members who used to be on the top of the pyramid, but now are seeking revenge, so-called 'squirrels' with extremely dangerous secrets to expose. Usually it is an easy task to camouflage a audit R2-45 as an EOC, End Of Cycle, which in simple words means suicide. The Church`s history is an avalanche of psychosis and suicides. Hubbard himself had suicidal and psychotic periods. His son Quentin committed suicide. the rest of the list is far too long, which again is a result of the Thetans internal executions often triggered by driving oneanother to commit suicide.

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Date: Tues, Oct 03, 2000 at 04:51:08 (GMT) From: suchabanana Email: None To: Everyone Subject: Showing the way to quickly access 'The Yacht' page Message:

http://webtools.bucnet.com/templates/viewfeatured_sksg.cfm?CFID=104971&CFTOKEN=71745633

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Date: Tues, Oct 03, 2000 at 05:28:35 (GMT) From: suchabanana Email: None To: everybody Subject: http://www.westportyachtsales.com/ Message:

http://www.westportyachtsales.com/ click on: yacht brokerage, then when you see all the boats listed, click on about the 4th one down from the top of the list = Westport Yachts [shipyard] (the 112' model) Tech problem: Something has been making it virtually impossible to directly access the actual boat page from this particular ex site tonight. [It worked when I tested it from another address, until I tried doing it a few times from the ex website after my message was posted.] Sorry. Peace

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Date: Tues, Oct 03, 2000 at 06:04:16 (GMT) From: suchabanana Email: None To: suchabanana Subject: westportyachtsales.com [brokerage:featured vessels Message:

1. go to: http://www.westportyachtsales.com 2. then click: yacht brokerage 3. then click: featured vessels 4. then click: Wesport shipyard {fourth from top of list} 112' 5. Bingo! 'It's not easy; it isn't what you think!' M. Long Beach, '95 'The Giver and the Gift' 'If you have millions, give millions!' mahatma Fakiranand [at Knowledge session] Don't forget that the base sales price does not include any specified custom luxury items/alterations to this little beauty of a marine vessel. If you check the Premo Marine page, you will notice that this puppy is listed as being for the 'personal' benefit/use of the owners. Kathy Gliebe is the listed officer/director -- but she obviously is not the owner. Who owns and uses this little rowboat? Go figure... $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$ 'You know some people don't like rich people. They have this idea or that idea of what it is to be rich. But they really don't know. It's not easy to be rich. It isn't. Once you've made your first million, you need another to protect it. Then you have two million, and you'll need another two million to protect those two million. Then you'll have four million and you'll need another four million to protect those four million, and then you'll have eight million. Of course then you'll need another 8 million to protect those eight million and then you'll have 16 million... it isn't easy, it's not what you think.' -- Maharaji speaking at Long Beach, December 1995 'IT ISN'T EASY,IT'S NOT WHAT YOU THINK'$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$ THE GIVER AND THE GIFT: THE MESSAGE REMAINS THE SAME 'If Guru Maharaj Ji tells us to go to hell, let us go there cheerfully, without any hesitation, for He has the power which can convert hell into heaven. Therefore, my blessed brothers and sisters, obey Guru Maharaj Ji implicitly, serve Him wholeheartedly and love Him for the sake of love alone. Ask nothing, want nothing in return, just devotion. Devote to Him what you have to devote. It will come back multiplied a millionfold, but do not think of that now. Remember! Guru Maharaj Ji is not hungry of our possessions. He is always selfcontented, perfect in His Divinity, His Knowledge is infinite in its application. His soul is the foundation of immortal bliss. What He wants from us is only pure love and devotion, and really He is the only source of love and devotion. We poor people have got nothing but hatred, jealousy, envy, pride and so on. Truly, He loves the whole world selflessly.' -- Charanand article, 1972 'IT ISN'T EASY,IT'S NOT WHAT YOU THINK'$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$ Was I out of the loop on the Westport Yacht Project, or what? But, I think I understand. I mean, you know, when the aviation fuel gets too expensive, or the FAA bans another polluting plane (like the 707 - garage sale, anyone?), the Lord might need that funky little 106-foot dinghy to get around -- also, to relax, because it must be awful hard sometimes being Lord of the entire Universe. That's a big job, after all. By the way, what about the suffering in Rwanda, Kosovo, Ethiopia, etc.? Don't ask, don't tell -- Right, I mean, 'if you feed those people today, they'll just be hungry again tomorrow', right? Well, you obviously know what you're talking about, sir... 'IT ISN'T EASY,IT'S NOT WHAT YOU THINK'$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$ And you know, 'the guy driving the Lincoln, well he's had money a long long time, but now, the Mercedes -- 'the practical man',' right? But then, I wouldn't know... 'cause we were all bozos on that old VW bus! But, I'm really looking forward to that first million, so I can have the second million to protect the first million, and then the four million to protect the two million, and so forth... Wow, that Maya sure looks nice -- ain't it sweet?!! 'IT ISN'T EASY,IT'S NOT WHAT YOU THINK'$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$ Yep, I had the honor of polishing that green Rolls Royce with the Hans license plate. Why is it that M., Sai Baba, and the late Rajneesh (Osho) have all favored the most expensive cars in the world? Because they can... They're beyond the Maya [illusion of the material world], right? I mean, after you have one Rolls Royce, then you need an Aston Martin, and then you need a Mercedes, and then you need a Lamborghini, and then you need a G-4 jet, right, to keep up with Bill Gates and the Emir of Dubai. Only the best will do! 'IT ISN'T EASY,IT'S NOT WHAT YOU THINK'$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$ To provide the lifestyle worthy of the living Lord of the Universe, there must be Devotion [sic 'gratitude' and 'appreciation'] by the premies ['students'] to the Guru ['Master']. 'IT ISN'T EASY,IT'S NOT WHAT YOU THINK'$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$ Oh, please forgive us, for our tormented thoughts... 'GURU MAHARAJ JI IS NOT HUNGRY OF OUR POSSESSIONS' 'IT ISN'T EASY,IT'S NOT WHAT YOU THINK'$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$ Never leave room for doubt -- doubts about M., or doubt in our own selves, our own intuition, our own innate intelligence, and in our own mutual Creator? 'IT ISN'T EASY,IT'S NOT WHAT YOU THINK'$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$ Really now: If someone comes along and shows us something that's already there within us, is it theirs, or their gift? No. Perhaps their showing us might be a gift -- but only if there are absolutely NO strings attached. Now there's the rub, folks. A gift is not a gift, if there are strings attached. repeat: A GIFT IS NOT A GIFT, IF THERE ARE STRINGS ATTACHED. 'IT ISN'T EASY,IT'S NOT WHAT YOU THINK'$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$ I clearly remember mahatma [instructor] Fakiranand saying (at my knowledge session), 'If you have millions, give millions.' Who instructed the mahatmas and instructors to direct money, gifts and devotion to M., in return for the Knowledge? 'IT ISN'T EASY,IT'S NOT WHAT YOU THINK'$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$ Yeah, 'THE MESSAGE REMAINS THE SAME': 'If you have millions, give millions.' 'IT ISN'T EASY,IT'S NOT WHAT YOU THINK'$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$ Let's hear again, sir: $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$ The MAHAMANTRA: '...Once you've made your first million, you need another to protect it. Then you have two million, and you'll need another two million to protect those two million. Then you'll have four million and you'll need another four million to protect those four million, and then you'll have eight million. Of course then you'll need another 8 million to protect those eight million and then you'll have 16 million... it isn't easy, it's not what you think.' {repeat this mantra 1000 times while looking at Maharaji's picture, to attain complete enlightenment!!!] The MAHAMANTRA: '...Once you've made your first million, you need another to protect it. Then you have two million, and you'll need another two million to protect those two million. Then you'll have four million and you'll need another four million to protect those four million, and then you'll have eight million. Of course then you'll need another 8 million to protect those eight million and then you'll have 16 million... it isn't easy, it's not what you think.' '...Once you've made your first million, you need another to protect it. Then you have two million, and you'll need another two million to protect those two million. Then you'll have four million and you'll need another four million to protect those four million, and then you'll have eight million. Of course then you'll need another 8 million to protect those eight million and then you'll have 16 million... it isn't easy, it's not what you think.' '...Once you've made your first million, you need another to protect it. Then you have two million, and you'll need another two million to protect those two million. Then you'll have four million and you'll need another four million to protect those four million, and then you'll have eight million. Of course then you'll need another 8 million to protect those eight million and then you'll have 16 million... it isn't easy, it's not what you think.' '...Once you've made your first million, you need another to protect it. Then you have two million, and you'll need another two million to protect those two million. Then you'll have four million and you'll need another four million to protect those four million, and then you'll have eight million. Of course then you'll need another 8 million to protect those eight million and then you'll have 16 million... it isn't easy, it's not what you think.' '...Once you've made your first million, you need another to protect it. Then you have two million, and you'll need another two million to protect those two million. Then you'll have four million and you'll need another four million to protect those four million, and then you'll have eight million. Of course then you'll need another 8 million to protect those eight million and then you'll have 16 million... it isn't easy, it's not what you think.' '...Once you've made your first million, you need another to protect it. Then you have two million, and you'll need another two million to protect those two million. Then you'll have four million and you'll need another four million to protect those four million, and then you'll have eight million. Of course then you'll need another 8 million to protect those eight million and then you'll have 16 million... it isn't easy, it's not what you think.' '...Once you've made your first million, you need another to protect it. Then you have two million, and you'll need another two million to protect those two million. Then you'll have four million and you'll need another four million to protect those four million, and then you'll have eight million. Of course then you'll need another 8 million to protect those eight million and then you'll have 16 million... it isn't easy, it's not what you think.' '...Once you've made your first million, you need another to protect it. Then you have two million, and you'll need another two million to protect those two million. Then you'll have four million and you'll need another four million to protect those four million, and then you'll have eight million. Of course then you'll need another 8 million to protect those eight million and then you'll have 16 million... it isn't easy, it's not what you think.' '...Once you've made your first million, you need another to protect it. Then you have two million, and you'll need another two million to protect those two million. Then you'll have four million and you'll need another four million to protect those four million, and then you'll have eight million. Of course then you'll need another 8 million to protect those eight million and then you'll have 16 million... it isn't easy, it's not what you think.' '...Once you've made your first million, you need another to protect it. Then you have two million, and you'll need another two million to protect those two million. Then you'll have four million and you'll need another four million to protect those four million, and then you'll have eight million. Of course then you'll need another 8 million to protect those eight million and then you'll have 16 million... it isn't easy, it's not what you think...' KEEP GOING: HAVE YOU ATTAINED ENLIGHTENMENT OF THE TRUTH, YET?

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Date: Tues, Oct 03, 2000 at 05:14:33 (GMT) From: suchabanana Email: None To: such and everybody Subject: Wesport Yachts:Motor Yacht w Pilothouse (112')2000 Message:

Copy web address, then paste to Address and GO! http://webtools.bucnet.com/templates/viewfeatured_sksg.cfm?CFID=104971&CFTOKEN=71745633 Click on Westport Yachts [shipyard]: the 112' is the year 2000 version of the similar 106' model. Don't forget that the base sales price does not include any specified custom luxury items/alterations to this little beauty of a marine vessel. If you check the Premo Marine page, you will notice that this puppy is listed as being for the 'personal' benefit/use of the owners. Kathy Gliebe is the listed officer/director -- but she obviously is not the owner. Who owns and uses this little rowboat? Go figure... 'IT ISN'T EASY; IT'S NOT WHAT YOU THINK!' - m. Long Beach, '95 'If you have millions, give millions.' - mahatma Fakiranand Peace,

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