Forum V: Archive
Compiled: Fri, Oct 13, 2000 at 13:08:59 (GMT)
From: Oct 04, 2000 To: Oct 11, 2000 Page: 2 Of: 5


Salam -:- Whois. -:- Sun, Oct 08, 2000 at 03:21:56 (GMT)

Love Junkie -:- Addicted To Love -:- Sat, Oct 07, 2000 at 17:50:44 (GMT)
__ janet of venice -:- Addicted To Love -:- Sun, Oct 08, 2000 at 07:20:25 (GMT)
__ __ DeProGram Anand Ji -:- Addicted To Love -:- Mon, Oct 09, 2000 at 11:58:34 (GMT)
__ __ Steve Quint -:- Twelve-Step Programs -:- Sun, Oct 08, 2000 at 12:47:54 (GMT)
__ __ JohnT -:- psst... -:- Sun, Oct 08, 2000 at 07:44:51 (GMT)
__ __ __ janet of venice -:- re: psst... -:- Sun, Oct 08, 2000 at 09:19:15 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Steven Quint -:- Life After Death -:- Sun, Oct 08, 2000 at 12:38:59 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Hal -:- Life After Death -:- Sun, Oct 08, 2000 at 20:45:37 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Salam -:- Life After Death -:- Mon, Oct 09, 2000 at 01:55:28 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Monmot -:- Life After Death--Lessons -:- Sun, Oct 08, 2000 at 21:17:42 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Hal -:- Life After Death--Lessons -:- Mon, Oct 09, 2000 at 07:10:43 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Monmot -:- Life After Death--Lessons -:- Tues, Oct 10, 2000 at 18:06:21 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Hal -:- Life After Death--Lessons -:- Tues, Oct 10, 2000 at 20:37:18 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ JohnT -:- re: psst... -:- Sun, Oct 08, 2000 at 09:28:30 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Janet of venice -:- life after death -:- Mon, Oct 09, 2000 at 08:20:39 (GMT)

A Busy Body -:- Time Management -:- Sat, Oct 07, 2000 at 17:03:47 (GMT)
__ Forum Administrator -:- Two suggestions.. -:- Sat, Oct 07, 2000 at 18:37:06 (GMT)

Brian -:- Janet's Journey -:- Sat, Oct 07, 2000 at 14:52:57 (GMT)
__ Janet of venice -:- Janet's Journey -:- Sun, Oct 08, 2000 at 09:05:42 (GMT)
__ __ shp abuse patrol -:- Janet, shp is a black hole. be forewarned. -:- Mon, Oct 09, 2000 at 01:31:10 (GMT)
__ __ __ shp -:- Janet, shp is a black hole. be forewarned. -:- Mon, Oct 09, 2000 at 01:55:01 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ shp abusee patrol -:- Sorry, the shp abuse patrol doesnt read your posts -:- Mon, Oct 09, 2000 at 02:00:43 (GMT)
__ __ shp -:- Janet's Journey -:- Sun, Oct 08, 2000 at 21:06:42 (GMT)
__ __ __ Janet of venice -:- Janet's Journey -:- Mon, Oct 09, 2000 at 09:27:39 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Jim -:- Sorry, Janet but that's definitely NOT rape -:- Mon, Oct 09, 2000 at 18:19:05 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ janet of venice -:- no, the rapes happened years later, not with him -:- Wed, Oct 11, 2000 at 02:31:02 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ shp -:- Janet's Journey -:- Mon, Oct 09, 2000 at 14:17:25 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ JohnT -:- What your best friends won't tell you -:- Mon, Oct 09, 2000 at 18:26:51 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Jim -:- And, shp, you idiot, that's even LESS rape -:- Mon, Oct 09, 2000 at 18:25:28 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ shp -:- You, being the intellectual rapist that you are, -:- Mon, Oct 09, 2000 at 18:36:07 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Jim -:- ***FA, WOULD YOU PLEASE EMPTY THE TRASH?**** -:- Mon, Oct 09, 2000 at 19:17:02 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ cq -:- unreachable and pedantic, yes, Jim, but then ... -:- Mon, Oct 09, 2000 at 20:08:37 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ JohnT -:- the ignorance of shp -:- Tues, Oct 10, 2000 at 12:23:19 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ cq -:- 'ignoring' vs ignorance? -:- Tues, Oct 10, 2000 at 18:46:21 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ JohnT -:- 'ignoring' vs ignorance? -:- Tues, Oct 10, 2000 at 21:10:39 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Jim -:- You are right on da' money with that one, John -:- Tues, Oct 10, 2000 at 23:02:28 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ shp -:- To all you geniuses whose name starts with a 'J' -:- Wed, Oct 11, 2000 at 02:11:50 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Jim -:- Jump out of the 'material PLANE' shp! -:- Wed, Oct 11, 2000 at 02:34:20 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Susan -:- 'ignoring' vs ignorance? -:- Tues, Oct 10, 2000 at 19:07:13 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ JohnT -:- 'ignoring' vs ignorance? -:- Tues, Oct 10, 2000 at 21:27:58 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Susan -:- you're right again -:- Tues, Oct 10, 2000 at 22:15:52 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ shp -:- Hi Susan -:- Tues, Oct 10, 2000 at 23:02:19 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Jim -:- Tell me, Susan, what do you think shp wants here? -:- Tues, Oct 10, 2000 at 23:11:12 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Jim -:- Give him his nickel back and send him to hell! -:- Tues, Oct 10, 2000 at 22:22:52 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Susan -:- LOL LOL -:- Tues, Oct 10, 2000 at 22:40:29 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Jim -:- No, I didn't make it to the bathroom -:- Tues, Oct 10, 2000 at 22:50:32 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ shp -:- No, I didn't make it to the bathroom -:- Tues, Oct 10, 2000 at 23:07:06 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Jim -:- Oh no! He's talking about the 'material plane'! -:- Tues, Oct 10, 2000 at 23:31:21 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ JohnT -:- shp, you are DISGUSTING nt -:- Mon, Oct 09, 2000 at 19:05:00 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ gerry -:- You're shameless, shp -:- Mon, Oct 09, 2000 at 14:25:22 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ shp -:- hey hey hey hey hey gerrrrrrry -:- Mon, Oct 09, 2000 at 14:30:20 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ hamzen -:- Ha ha ha, still around shp -:- Mon, Oct 09, 2000 at 18:27:48 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ shp -:- well, ham, it's like this.... -:- Mon, Oct 09, 2000 at 18:39:45 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ JohnT -:- Get lost shp. Ooops you ARE lost. Get LOSTER (nt) -:- Mon, Oct 09, 2000 at 19:33:10 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ gerry -:- go suck energy someplace else -:- Mon, Oct 09, 2000 at 14:50:09 (GMT)
__ __ __ shp -:- Janet's Journey -:- Sun, Oct 08, 2000 at 21:13:58 (GMT)
__ __ Katie -:- Janet's Journey -:- Sun, Oct 08, 2000 at 17:17:02 (GMT)
__ Sir Dave -:- Janet's Journey -:- Sun, Oct 08, 2000 at 00:02:34 (GMT)
__ Susan -:- touching and powerful story -:- Sat, Oct 07, 2000 at 16:56:21 (GMT)
__ __ Susan -:- does your ex post here? -:- Sat, Oct 07, 2000 at 21:31:36 (GMT)
__ __ __ Probably not at this time -:- yes he has posted here. For a couple years.-nt -:- Mon, Oct 09, 2000 at 01:20:12 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Janet of venice -:- yes he has posted here. For a couple years. -:- Mon, Oct 09, 2000 at 09:38:22 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ bb -:- There are of course two sides to a couples story. -:- Mon, Oct 09, 2000 at 01:34:47 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ bb -:- It aint me by the way. -:- Mon, Oct 09, 2000 at 01:57:28 (GMT)
__ shp -:- Janet's Journey -:- Sat, Oct 07, 2000 at 16:24:04 (GMT)
__ __ Helen -:- Janet's Journey -:- Sun, Oct 08, 2000 at 04:01:43 (GMT)
__ __ __ shp -:- Janet's Journey -:- Sun, Oct 08, 2000 at 20:07:13 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Bin Liner -:- Janet's Journey -:- Sun, Oct 08, 2000 at 23:19:50 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ shp -:- Janet's Journey -:- Mon, Oct 09, 2000 at 02:09:22 (GMT)
__ __ __ H.G -:- Janet's Journey -:- Sun, Oct 08, 2000 at 12:33:45 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Katie -:- Don't blame the premies -:- Sun, Oct 08, 2000 at 17:25:26 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ H.G -:- Don't blame the premies -:- Sun, Oct 08, 2000 at 23:07:46 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Helen -:- you sound like the corporate spokesperson -:- Wed, Oct 11, 2000 at 02:05:19 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Forum Administrator -:- Don't we know you? -:- Wed, Oct 11, 2000 at 01:44:16 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Brian -:- Fool's Fool -:- Sun, Oct 08, 2000 at 14:29:30 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ janet of venice -:- Fool's Fool -:- Mon, Oct 09, 2000 at 10:21:53 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ H .G -:- Fool's Fool -:- Sun, Oct 08, 2000 at 23:12:06 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Jean-Michel -:- Abusers around the Main Abuser -:- Mon, Oct 09, 2000 at 13:14:35 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Helen -:- Fool's Fool -:- Sun, Oct 08, 2000 at 17:18:25 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Salam -:- It is all a matter of numbers. -:- Sun, Oct 08, 2000 at 14:48:17 (GMT)
__ __ G -:- an incriminating thing -:- Sun, Oct 08, 2000 at 02:35:00 (GMT)
__ __ __ shp -:- We all have free will all the time... -:- Sun, Oct 08, 2000 at 21:28:58 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ G -:- free will -:- Sun, Oct 08, 2000 at 22:27:00 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ shp -:- free will -:- Mon, Oct 09, 2000 at 02:21:49 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Jim -:- You're such the drama queen, aren't you shp? -:- Mon, Oct 09, 2000 at 02:26:11 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ shp -:- Truth or dare.... -:- Mon, Oct 09, 2000 at 02:30:52 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Jim -:- Yeah, right -:- Mon, Oct 09, 2000 at 03:10:15 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ shp -:- Bon apetit -:- Mon, Oct 09, 2000 at 14:28:57 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ JohnT -:- YOU'RE IN YOUR MIND, shp. FO back to rawat nt -:- Mon, Oct 09, 2000 at 19:39:36 (GMT)
__ __ Is your brain Mush? -:- Janet's Journey -:- Sun, Oct 08, 2000 at 00:24:19 (GMT)
__ __ __ shp -:- Janet's Journey -:- Sun, Oct 08, 2000 at 21:35:10 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ JohnT -:- shp has no Journey - he's got nowhere nt -:- Mon, Oct 09, 2000 at 20:03:15 (GMT)

One Of The Judges -:- PAM's and M -:- Sat, Oct 07, 2000 at 10:38:22 (GMT)

Salam -:- Knowledge DVD. -:- Sat, Oct 07, 2000 at 10:14:49 (GMT)
__ suchabanana -:- will post your messages on my site, if you do it! -:- Sun, Oct 08, 2000 at 03:45:08 (GMT)
__ __ Salam -:- will post your messages on my site, if you do it! -:- Sun, Oct 08, 2000 at 13:57:52 (GMT)
__ suchabanana -:- Don't sell Knowledge or DVD for Money!That's SICK! -:- Sat, Oct 07, 2000 at 19:40:35 (GMT)
__ __ Salam -:- Don't sell Knowledge or DVD for Money!That's SICK! -:- Sun, Oct 08, 2000 at 01:06:48 (GMT)
__ __ __ suchabanana -:- Well,I'm going to be offering Kn. FREE no strings! -:- Sun, Oct 08, 2000 at 03:27:52 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ alam -:- et tu bruto? -:- Sun, Oct 08, 2000 at 04:08:41 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ G -:- ok but -:- Sun, Oct 08, 2000 at 03:31:59 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Salam -:- True. -:- Sun, Oct 08, 2000 at 03:51:53 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ such -:- Remember: a greedy guru and his envious disciple.. -:- Sun, Oct 08, 2000 at 20:48:30 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Salam -:- Remember: a greedy guru and his envious disciple.. -:- Mon, Oct 09, 2000 at 01:38:28 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ suchbananas -:- Silly me:couldn't tell the salami from the baloney -:- Mon, Oct 09, 2000 at 04:16:37 (GMT)
__ __ Jim -:- Hm, how much do you think we could get? -:- Sat, Oct 07, 2000 at 19:56:19 (GMT)
__ __ __ G -:- That is inexpensive -:- Sun, Oct 08, 2000 at 02:07:02 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ JohnT -:- distributing knowledge -:- Sun, Oct 08, 2000 at 07:17:09 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Salam -:- Execuse me. -:- Sun, Oct 08, 2000 at 02:27:45 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Salam -:- Oh by the way. -:- Sun, Oct 08, 2000 at 02:37:29 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ G -:- Oh by the way. -:- Sun, Oct 08, 2000 at 03:27:02 (GMT)
__ __ __ Cap'n Dave -:- Not much if I'm around -:- Sun, Oct 08, 2000 at 00:15:29 (GMT)
__ janet of Venice -:- Knowledge video -:- Sat, Oct 07, 2000 at 11:04:24 (GMT)
__ __ Salam -:- Knowledge video -:- Sat, Oct 07, 2000 at 11:25:14 (GMT)
__ __ __ Cap'n Dave -:- Knowledge video -:- Sun, Oct 08, 2000 at 00:18:33 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Salam -:- I am already on V3 -:- Sun, Oct 08, 2000 at 01:15:58 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Salam -:- and note this post below -:- Sun, Oct 08, 2000 at 01:23:47 (GMT)
__ The ultimate -:- Fraud? -:- Sat, Oct 07, 2000 at 10:36:10 (GMT)
__ __ Cap'n Dave -:- Fraud? -:- Sun, Oct 08, 2000 at 00:26:03 (GMT)
__ __ Salam -:- Sue me then. -:- Sat, Oct 07, 2000 at 11:06:40 (GMT)
__ __ __ Salame -:- Sue me then. -:- Sat, Oct 07, 2000 at 17:40:20 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Disculta -:- Cheaper to pay -:- Sat, Oct 07, 2000 at 23:38:08 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ G -:- Indeed -:- Sun, Oct 08, 2000 at 01:55:35 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Salam -:- Indeed -:- Sun, Oct 08, 2000 at 02:31:30 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ sam -:- I paid 150 dollarsfor ihour of live m -:- Sun, Oct 08, 2000 at 05:02:07 (GMT)

Janet of venice -:- Hilly zeitlin emailed me today... -:- Sat, Oct 07, 2000 at 06:40:26 (GMT)

suchabanana -:- da YACHT,SPREAD THE WORD:7.5 million dollar YACHT! -:- Sat, Oct 07, 2000 at 04:45:44 (GMT)
__ What did I miss? -:- Premo Marine inc. wants to sell a yacht -:- Sat, Oct 07, 2000 at 17:26:20 (GMT)
__ G -:- da YACHT and other stuff -:- Sat, Oct 07, 2000 at 17:10:55 (GMT)
__ __ suchabanana -:- Customer specified fittings? = adds to Big COSTS!! -:- Sat, Oct 07, 2000 at 19:32:02 (GMT)
__ __ __ G -:- Customer specified fittings? = adds to Big COSTS!! -:- Sun, Oct 08, 2000 at 01:49:23 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Bin Liner -:- Customer specified fittings? = adds to Big COSTS!! -:- Sun, Oct 08, 2000 at 02:12:16 (GMT)
__ jondon -:- I have seen this yacht in Newport -:- Sat, Oct 07, 2000 at 12:03:08 (GMT)
__ __ Jim -:- Actually 'Beefjerkie ji' is a muslim name (nt) -:- Sat, Oct 07, 2000 at 19:52:44 (GMT)
__ Jim -:- That can't be his; it's by far the most expensive! -:- Sat, Oct 07, 2000 at 05:04:51 (GMT)

Rob -:- The buck stops here -:- Sat, Oct 07, 2000 at 04:34:43 (GMT)
__ Jim -:- You're completely off base -:- Sat, Oct 07, 2000 at 04:41:58 (GMT)
__ __ Rob -:- Vote for God -:- Sat, Oct 07, 2000 at 22:12:26 (GMT)
__ __ __ Sir Dave -:- Vote for God -:- Sat, Oct 07, 2000 at 22:58:33 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ What to think -:- about the lord of the universe -:- Sun, Oct 08, 2000 at 01:02:25 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Hal -:- about the lord of the universe -:- Sun, Oct 08, 2000 at 09:50:21 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ There is a difference -:- believing / wanting to believe (nt) -:- Sun, Oct 08, 2000 at 11:39:42 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Rob -:- May I call you Bjorn? -:- Sun, Oct 08, 2000 at 03:12:51 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Bjørn the observant -:- re arti -:- Tues, Oct 10, 2000 at 11:30:39 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Hal -:- I assure you Bjorn -:- Tues, Oct 10, 2000 at 12:58:42 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Bjørn the observant -:- I dont doubt you hal -:- Tues, Oct 10, 2000 at 13:24:25 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Bjørn the observant -:- May I call you Bjorn? -:- Tues, Oct 10, 2000 at 10:20:55 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Bin Liner -:- about the lord of the universe -:- Sun, Oct 08, 2000 at 01:35:57 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Bjørn the observant -:- about the lord of the universe -:- Tues, Oct 10, 2000 at 11:07:14 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Bin Liner -:- about the lord of the universe -:- Tues, Oct 10, 2000 at 19:54:15 (GMT)


Date: Sun, Oct 08, 2000 at 03:21:56 (GMT)
From: Salam
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: Whois.
Message:
I have been thinking of this idea for a while. No it is not about the DVD venture.

Would it be a good thing to have a Who is in marraji's organisation. Say we start with honco and his immediate family, background on each with pics. Then his not so immediate family in India. The top brass in EV. The ex top brass...etc

A kind of database.

What do you think.

(now that could be another DVD)

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Date: Sat, Oct 07, 2000 at 17:50:44 (GMT)
From: Love Junkie
Email: lovejunkie@glued_to_computer.org
To: Everyone
Subject: Addicted To Love
Message:
I'm addicted to this website. Is there a twelve-step program for this particular addiction?
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Date: Sun, Oct 08, 2000 at 07:20:25 (GMT)
From: janet of venice
Email: None
To: Love Junkie
Subject: Addicted To Love
Message:
joke or no, the 12 steps work for anything. alone or with friends. be the first on on your block.
.
now: if that anxious, alcoholic, shopaholic, codependent megalomaniac in malibu could only grasp that....
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Date: Mon, Oct 09, 2000 at 11:58:34 (GMT)
From: DeProGram Anand Ji
Email: not given
To: janet of venice
Subject: Addicted To Love
Message:
I'm 13 years clean and sober through Alcoholics Anonymous. Hey M need a sponsor?
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Date: Sun, Oct 08, 2000 at 12:47:54 (GMT)
From: Steve Quint
Email: sequint@home.com
To: janet of venice
Subject: Twelve-Step Programs
Message:
I've been in Emotions Anonymous and Adult Chilren Anonymous for fourteen years now.

Could you really see him going to a step-step program? Could you really see him doing a 180 degree turn and admitting he was wrong?

Thanks and Love
Steve

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Date: Sun, Oct 08, 2000 at 07:44:51 (GMT)
From: JohnT
Email: None
To: janet of venice
Subject: psst...
Message:
janet of Venice: joke or no, the 12 steps work for anything. alone or with friends. be the first on on your block.
.
now: if that anxious, alcoholic, shopaholic, codependent megalomaniac in malibu could only grasp that....

JohnT: But do they work on anxious, alcoholic, shopaholic, sociopathic megalomaniac narcissists?

I fear not. He's beyond help.

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Date: Sun, Oct 08, 2000 at 09:19:15 (GMT)
From: janet of venice
Email: None
To: JohnT
Subject: re: psst...
Message:
uhhh--yeah. once step one happens, then step two..yes, they work. none of them are easy, but yes.
i have done extensive research on life after death. this included contact from the departed. if he does not reach the breaking point in this life, at life's end, he will be shown all that he caused to happen to others, and undergo a long period of rehab in the realm beyond, and when he has undertood and accepts it and is fully ready, he will be allowed or assigned to return here and experience what he put others through. karma works. and it will be with his own permission, too. he himself will write his own punishment. he will be the one to set up what he knows he deserves. and that will not be with the ego and appettites of this world. it will be after he has seen and felt every last emotion and moment of every life he affected, seen the outcome of every act he ever committed, and spent as long as it takes for them to reschool him in what god wants for each of us. not before.
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Date: Sun, Oct 08, 2000 at 12:38:59 (GMT)
From: Steven Quint
Email: sequint@home.com
To: janet of venice
Subject: Life After Death
Message:
I'm fascinated by your message.

How can you know what happens to a person after they die?

I've been thinking about this a lot lately.

How does your posting relate to the concept of burning in hell?

If the body perishes when someone dies, how can they perform the deeds mentioned or feel the fires of hell?

Thanks
Love,

Steve

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Date: Sun, Oct 08, 2000 at 20:45:37 (GMT)
From: Hal
Email: None
To: Steven Quint
Subject: Life After Death
Message:
Hi Steve,

Maybe the only sure bet is to deal with one world at a time.

I've actually had a near death experience and landed up in another dimension with people I'd never met yet who seemed to know me intimately. I was given a guided tour of this other world which was similar to this one yet all the colours were brighter and everything vibrated with light. I remember seeing major events in my life pass before me and the lessons I was supposed to learn on earth became apparent.

There was a lot more to it and although the event was 25 yrs ago I'm able to recall it all perfectly.

However it could all have been fantasy caused by a traumatised brain. I can't know for sure.

I've chosen not to speculate because one day I'll find out for sure. Now I'm trying to deal with this life as it is and still finding it a challenge

best wishes

Hal ( Steve Mulley)

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Date: Mon, Oct 09, 2000 at 01:55:28 (GMT)
From: Salam
Email: None
To: Hal
Subject: Life After Death
Message:
From my experience, the reson to learn was to develpe further. Become more human if you like.

The lessons seemed applicable to everyone, though the difficulty is relative to the scale of evolution of that particular person. It appeared that there was pain in the learning process but that pain changed to an understanding of the mechanics of the process of evolution as one climed up the stair ladder

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Date: Sun, Oct 08, 2000 at 21:17:42 (GMT)
From: Monmot
Email: None
To: Hal
Subject: Life After Death--Lessons
Message:
Hal/Steve M:

...and the lessons I was supposed to learn on earth became apparent.

If you don't mind sharing this, what were the lessons you were supposed to learn? Are they particular to you, or do you think they're similars lessons to be learned by your fellow (wo)men?

Thanks
M

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Date: Mon, Oct 09, 2000 at 07:10:43 (GMT)
From: Hal
Email: None
To: Monmot
Subject: Life After Death--Lessons
Message:
Hi Monmot,

Of course assuming the experience had some validity ( which I do)and was not mere illusion the lesson I was to learn was a very simple one. Love and compassion for myself and all sentient beings. Kindness to those I come in contact with and appreciation of familial love.

I was also shown a fair amount of detail my last incarnation as a Jewish scientist forced to work on a secret military project who commited suicide.

Sincerely
Hal

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Date: Tues, Oct 10, 2000 at 18:06:21 (GMT)
From: Monmot
Email: None
To: Hal
Subject: Life After Death--Lessons
Message:
Hi Hal:

Thanks for your answer. I've never had an NDE, but I was once very sick, close to dying, but rallied just in time. But I've always been interested in 'life beyond.' I realized many years ago that the key to life was understanding (and I don't mean 'stand under' :-)), and I think that understanding is the key to love and compassion as you mentioned. I hope this makes sense.

Also, when you reviewed a former life of yours as a Jewish scientist who was forced to work on a secret military project and who committed suicide, did it make 'sense'? As in, did it explain any fascination/revulsion toward science, the military, etc.? Or perhaps you've grappled with the issue of suicide this lifetime? Or have an inherent knowledge or understanding of something which you wouldn't necessarily know or understand this time around?

I hope these questions aren't too personal, so please forgive me if they are, and, obviously, you should feel free to demur answering any of them.

Thanks
Monmot

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Date: Tues, Oct 10, 2000 at 20:37:18 (GMT)
From: Hal
Email: None
To: Monmot
Subject: Life After Death--Lessons
Message:
Hi Monmot,

I'd be very happy to discuss these topics with you but would prefer to do it by e mail . I'm steve.mulley@clix.pt.

Hope to hear from you,
Steve

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Date: Sun, Oct 08, 2000 at 09:28:30 (GMT)
From: JohnT
Email: None
To: janet of venice
Subject: re: psst...
Message:
Hmmm. In that case I should say the boy's already booked for several lifetimes of remedial classes.

8. Made a list of all persons we had harmed, and became willing to make amends to them all.
9. Made direct amends to such people wherever possible, except when to do so would injure them or others.

Yup, that's gonna keep heem and hees PAMs busy for a few lifetimes alright. Don't ya think it would be more humane to lob the slobs into the void and have done with them?

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Date: Mon, Oct 09, 2000 at 08:20:39 (GMT)
From: Janet of venice
Email: None
To: all who responded
Subject: life after death
Message:
thanks for taking this seriously

what hal's telling us here, as it happened to him, is consistent with what i found, time and again, from people who died and returned, from contacts from the departed (which i never expected, had no beliefs about, and which happened to others in the room with me when it occurred , so it could not have been just me ) and from accounts, written anywhere from the present day, to going back centuries, even millennia.

i have communicated with patients in deep coma, and had them confirm it to me when they revived. I did likewise , with comatose who passed on, and they reached me from over there, years later ,to tell me what it was like to be there.

btw guys--i thank you for not ridiculing me for making this known. this is not my belief system. it came into my life unwarned, and took me years to trust . not until i had tried to tear it apart from every possible angle, and I kept meeting with the same answers, did i have to finally stop fighting it and accept it.

and from all i have read and heard, it seems its preferable to wake up now, and make the inventory now, and make the amends now, in this lifetime, because once you go over, its a looooooot harder.

alcoholics remain alcoholics over there. addicts remain addicted. whatever you think about or fear, manifests.you crave the satisfactions of this world, but cannot have them. in that world they are mirages.

if there is a hell, it is made by your own imagination.

there is not a god-ordained hell, for the purpose of punishment, as we have been told.

but there is a great and ongoing school that we must attend, and be taught in.

suggested reading on this understanding:

_Conversations_with_God_, all four books, by Neale Donald Walsch

_The_Urantia_Book_

_Embraced_by_the_Light_, by Betty Eadie

the books by Dannion Brinkley

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Date: Sat, Oct 07, 2000 at 17:03:47 (GMT)
From: A Busy Body
Email: busy@body.one
To: Everyone
Subject: Time Management
Message:
I feel I need more than one body to do my work.

Anybody have any suggestions?

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Date: Sat, Oct 07, 2000 at 18:37:06 (GMT)
From: Forum Administrator
Email: None
To: A Busy Body
Subject: Two suggestions..
Message:
Your threads may be innocuous, 'Busy Body'/'Love Junkie', but we're trying to discourage bad habits. Please repect forum guidelines and mark off-topic posts as such ('ot'), and having chosen a name or alias, stick with it.

BTW: Do we know you? Do you have anything to say about Maharaji or Knowledge?

Thanks,
Forum Administrator

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Date: Sat, Oct 07, 2000 at 14:52:57 (GMT)
From: Brian
Email: brian@ex-premie.org
To: Everyone
Subject: Janet's Journey
Message:
I put Janet's Journey online this morning. This is strong stuff.

I'm told that she's related parts of her story on the forum already. Sorry to say that I missed it, but I won't forget her entry.

Thanks Janet. You, and others like you, are the reason that I got involved with maintaining the site in the first place.

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Date: Sun, Oct 08, 2000 at 09:05:42 (GMT)
From: Janet of venice
Email: Jai_Choix@webtv.net
To: Brian
Subject: Janet's Journey
Message:
I thank you all-very deeply.
sir dave knows a bit more of my story from email.roger knows some of it, from my rebuttal to his twilight zone narrative, on his 'best of'. its in the recent inactive index right now, from just days ago, but easy to locate and go read.
my ex is healing from his surgery.He has determined not to subject himself to any stress, or monetary demands re MJ ever again. He meditates on his own and has yet to make his history right by me. i await his 4th and 8th steps.
if he is here on the forum, i have not found anything by him. i might ask him or do a search, later.
my son has just come back from making a cross country greyhound trip, alone, to go see his dad, after learning of this NDE. he said his father looked haggard, until they got alone together, and started playing around, and laughing together, and then he said 'mom--he wasnt just happy--when he got to spend time with me, he was EFFULGENT!(the choice of words is his; he's never heard me use the term.)
I thank you all for the impressions. i strive to convey raw feeling, and I am not surprised you tell me it's hard to read. your feedback means i have succeeded in my hopes to render it. It was just that raw and painful to live thru, and years of unreality are lifting off my heart, unspooling, in finally finding a place where i can speak aloud what it has felt like to be me.
how radically is this changing me? well...today i reamed thru my closet with a vengeance, and threw out everything i saw, in there, that i realized i'd adopted, during my miserable years of trying to go along with the hush-hush, all business, cold, sterile, cruel EV. and my ego felt freed. lightened, loosened. no more iron fisted 'competence' and 'performance' act to put on, no more having to 'prove' to anyone I could 'do it'.
roger will find this ironic: it would seem i am more like your twilight zone image than i suspected i was!! when i was done, what i had left, could very well outfit the character you described, in your jape of me.thanx, roj. maybe your intuition is better than you know!
shp--you fail to understand that this guy i bedded was not on my list of things to do. rather, he diverted me from an honest errand, drove me to, and then waylaid me at, his premie house, under false pretenses, made excuses not to drive me, either to satsang or back to my house, and when i finally prepared to walk the mile home, in hip high snow, at 3° below zero, after midnight, he sprang up and blocked my way, and pleaded with me not to leave-- because he was lonely.
had we not been in the cult, i would have had no hesitation about telling him to forget it, and made the walk. instead, i stifled my real reactions, as id been taught to do as a 'devoted sister', and 'showed compassion', acted 'with that love', and i found myself pregnant as a result.
I was shocked, all to hell, when his first response to me was to tell me 'youre in your mind, dont give it any energy', and then, when the tests showed i certainly was not, to beg me to abort it, 'because it would ruin his life and his career' if i had it!
shp-do you understand? that healthy, thinking, normal responsive people, in their right mind, don't react with such bizarre prattle, when given such news? that only cult members or the psychiatrically disturbed, ever speak in such delusional mentations?
you must have no consciousness-raising experience with 'blaming the victim'. i was a rape crisis counselor in denver in the 80's, and i got my training the hard way. it happened to me. when a person is jumped, raped, assaulted, robbed, burglarized, defrauded, battered, abused, trapped, isolated, scammed, carjacked, etc. it is the wrongdoer who is responsible. it is they who committed the act, not their target. the victim has committed no crime. they do not 'deserve' what happens to them, and the trauma behavior they display afterwards, trying to regain their reality, is remarkably consistent in all cases. once i had lived it, i could spot it in anyone else.
i would not wish it on anyone, but should it come to you, i will be someone you can tell, who will know what is happenning to you, when you feel you are disintegrating, and you realize you are acting terribly strangely in the aftermath.knowing what i do, i accept your apology now, years in advance of when you will be able to come to me, with it.
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Date: Mon, Oct 09, 2000 at 01:31:10 (GMT)
From: shp abuse patrol
Email: None
To: Janet of venice
Subject: Janet, shp is a black hole. be forewarned.
Message:
Hi Janet,
He will waste your time if you allow it.
Keep alert to his style of abuse.
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Date: Mon, Oct 09, 2000 at 01:55:01 (GMT)
From: shp
Email: None
To: shp abuse patrol
Subject: Janet, shp is a black hole. be forewarned.
Message:
Dear shp abuse patrol,

I think Janet is bright enough to know her way around and know the difference between abusers and non-abusers without being parented by you. Also, if I were a betting man, I'd say you are bill, working hard at keeping the bad vibes going.

sanford

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Date: Mon, Oct 09, 2000 at 02:00:43 (GMT)
From: shp abusee patrol
Email: None
To: shp
Subject: Sorry, the shp abuse patrol doesnt read your posts
Message:
dfghs
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Date: Sun, Oct 08, 2000 at 21:06:42 (GMT)
From: shp
Email: None
To: Janet of venice
Subject: Janet's Journey
Message:
Janet of Venice said:
shp--you fail to understand that this guy i bedded was not on my list of things to do. rather, he diverted me from an honest errand, drove me to, and then waylaid me at, his premie house, under false pretenses, made excuses not to drive me, either to satsang or back to my house, and when i finally prepared to walk the mile home, in hip high snow, at 3° below zero, after midnight, he sprang up and blocked my way, and pleaded with me not to leave-- because he was lonely. had we not been in the cult, i would have had no hesitation about telling him to forget it, and made the walk. instead, i stifled my real reactions, as id been taught to do as a 'devoted sister', and 'showed compassion', acted 'with that love', and i found myself pregnant as a result.

shp asks:
Who taught you to give it up to a premie brother in order to be a 'devoted sister'? Are you telling me that you believed at the time that giving him a 'pf' was in accord with being a good premie? I don't recall Maharaji or any mahatmas giving direction to premies to give it up to other lonely premies...I think the numbers would have surged if that was the case, and we would have been on all the media and busted a long time ago. I have no doubt in my mind from what you said that this man sounds like he was premeditatedly setting circumstances up for an encounter in a weasely sort of way. OK, that's what he did, and it sounds really uncool. But how you reacted and the reason you gave, I honestly don't understand. Nor is it my business to, unless you wish to share more. I do feel from your post that you acted in sincerity and with good will towards the guy. But if someone is not being true to themselves, then whatever follows is doomed to fail because truth is the foundation upon which everything else rests, regardless of the magnitude or minutae of the matter at hand. Anyway, I am sure that you and your ex both love your son very very much and are really glad he's here, which smooths out a certain amount of the pain of the past and how he got here...he must have wanted to get here and be with you pretty bad. And although I know you would have preferred courtship, getting to know and love the father of your child beforehand, some flowers and candy and some dinners and movies and meaningful conversations, I don't think that you would change a thing because you love your son so much. It really comes through loud and clear. My wife and I have two sons. Our family is not without its problems. On a level, I understand how you feel.

Janet said:
I was shocked, all to hell, when his first response to me was to tell me 'youre in your mind, dont give it any energy', and then, when the tests showed i certainly was not, to beg me to abort it, 'because it would ruin his life and his career' if i had it!

shp says:
Very immature and short-sighted of him. I have no respect for that position whatsoever.

Janet said:
shp-do you understand? that healthy, thinking, normal responsive people, in their right mind, don't react with such bizarre prattle, when given such news? that only cult members or the psychiatrically disturbed, ever speak in such delusional mentations?

shp says:
Certain cult members, psychiatrically disturbed, or very immature.

Janet said:
you must have no consciousness-raising experience with 'blaming the victim'. i was a rape crisis counselor in denver in the 80's, and i got my training the hard way. it happened to me. when a person is jumped, raped, assaulted, robbed, burglarized, defrauded, battered, abused, trapped, isolated, scammed, carjacked, etc. it is the wrongdoer who is responsible. it is they who committed the act, not their target. the victim has committed no crime. they do not 'deserve' what happens to them, and the trauma behavior they display afterwards, trying to regain their reality, is remarkably consistent in all cases. once i had lived it, i could spot it in anyone else. i would not wish it on anyone, but should it come to you, i will be someone you can tell, who will know what is happenning to you, when you feel you are disintegrating, and you realize you are acting terribly strangely in the aftermath.knowing what i do, i accept your apology now, years in advance of when you will be able to come to me, with it.

shp says:
Are you saying that you were raped besides the encounter with the father of your child? A 'pf' and a rape are two very different events. Maybe how you first described it confused me, or I did not pick up on something in between the lines. Please clarify.

Dear Janet,
I am not cold-hearted to nor unconscious of the things of which you speak. I understand how relationships can go bad, either from the start, or slowly, gradually and insidiously over years.
I have experienced both. Please do not misunderstand my original feedback. Perhaps I was just too blunt.

Was it all for him that cold winter night? Did you want to do it too, even a little? This matters. It matters very much. Either you totally gave up your free will to his or you agreed to something, reluctantly or otherwise, or you were raped. And since you shared this very honest and open story, I hope it's OK to ask honest and open questions. There are two sides to every story. You say you would not have acted the way you had if your head had not been messed with. This is also probably true of your ex-mate. Was it like the stories we used to get fed about the gopis and the temple prostitutes taking care of the devotees so they could meditate better or something? If he fed you a line of crap in the name of Knowledge to get laid, and you bought it, I can totally understand and have compassion, which is different than pity. That has been going on for millenia.

If you voluntarily complied, then assume your share of the responsibility. You always had your yes and your no, is that not so? If you were in a situation that could be described as a rape or a forced act, that is a totally different story. Which one was it is an important thing to determine, but I don't think it's my business or the business of this Forum, out of respect for what privacy you have left, unless you choose to talk about it.

And in the grand scheme of theings, now that your man-child is here, would you change a thing? My life ain't perfect either, but in the connectedness of everything and everybody involved, one must proceed with great care in the affairs of human relationships. And what we call 'bad' and 'good' blends into life itself and becomes a whole picture as our lives unfold.

I apologize now for anything I said before or now that may have hurt you to read, for that is not and was not my intention. My questions are sincere, as is my highest hope for you, your son and his father to reconcile and be together if that is possible.
And if that is not possible, then at least the love may flow freely between the three of you, for that is what you son needs most right now, as all growing and developing children do.

Sincerely,

shp

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Date: Mon, Oct 09, 2000 at 09:27:39 (GMT)
From: Janet of venice
Email: None
To: shp
Subject: Janet's Journey
Message:
the rapes occurred later, in denver , in the 80's whle i was living alone and going about my life . i have come to know that rape sometimes cannot be identified until afterward, by its symptoms. if you feel filthy, unsafe, confused, not clean, spaced, unreal, and somehow apart from all the people you know--then it was a rape. even if you knew the person, even if you liked them, even if you trusted them--if this is what you begin to exhbit afterwards, then you were raped. what jagdeo did to those children was rape. there need not be penetration or even exposure for it to be rape. the symptoms follow the same list.what that brother did to me wasnt a rape. it was more like work. he stalled all evening, about first having to do the dinner dishes, and then taking a nap instead of going to the hall, like all his housemates did, miles away, and then making up some excuse when they came home and he awoke,about' his car wouldnt start in the cold, so late at night, why didnt i stay and he'd drive me home in the morning' and my therefore trying to make a go of sleeping on his freezing floor, in a ratty sleeping bag he had,-- in truth, after an hour on his floor while he had a nice warm bed, i got disgusted and got up and prepared to walk home to my own bed. when he sprang up and hastily blocked my way, and went into his pleading and hand wringing and his doleful refrains, i stood there, sizing him up and keenly clear on what this was. he grandly went over to his bed and drew back his blankets, and grinned and said we could keep warm that way. i was as matter- of- fact about what this was, as i imagine a streetwalker is, about her johns. i narrowed my eyes and said,'fine. move over' and i got in with him.we made a pretense of lying there to get warmed up, motionless and chaste, for about 20 minutes. and then he turned over to face me, and as soon as he looked at me, i said tersely 'come on. let's get this over with.' i intentionally exhausted him . i kept pushing him. he got off five different times. i didnt even get aroused, much less come. to this day, that night included, we have never so much as kissed. there has never been any love between us.he resents me, and i feel scorn and impatience for/with him.
you are quite right, however, about each of us loving our son. that was never an issue until recently. the boy yearns for us all to be together, and for his sake, i wish it too. but the swing vote is his father and i seriously dont expect it to happen. his parents hate me, my parents hate him, and even being ex-p's will not heal that feud. not after 20 odd years of recrimination.
would i change anything? yes. i know exactly where i would. i would have peeled away and made my own home without him and gotten ready for the coming baby, and Mj would have had to wait. I would never have called my parents to come rescue me, and placed myself in a trap, to be locked away, and have my son taken from me by legal sleight of hand for 16 years. and had i done those two things, so much else would be different that i would not be carrying this load of misery today.
the manchild is 22 as of yesterday. i am 48.dad and i email each other from time to time. he saw the boy 3 times a year while he was growing up in my fathers first half a million dollar house.( he has had three built)but i could not.but he has never fathered him. weekend visits 3 times a year do not make for fathering, as i know from my own father's years of visitation weekends, after the divorce. those years can never be gotten back and done the way they were supposed to be.
but i welcome your questions. nothing you could ask me, could be as brutal as the questions i have asked myself, and answered. I stood my ground for what and who i was, even under excruciating pressure to be otherwise, first from the hospital, then my father, then the courts, and then maharaji. I am what i am, and i cannot be anything else, for anybody else. even if you kidnap and hold my only child for ransom for 16 years, even if you lock me behind walls and ply me with psychiatric drugs, even if you contrive to make my life over with behavior modification,even if you threaten me from the bench, even if you reneg on your sweeping promises about divinity--you shall not break me. I AM THAT I AM.as john bradshaw taught me--I am the only person who will never leave me. i am the only person who knows me. I am the only one who has been with me from the beginning and will be with me in the end. so i had best appreciate me.
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Date: Mon, Oct 09, 2000 at 18:19:05 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Janet of venice
Subject: Sorry, Janet but that's definitely NOT rape
Message:
Janet,

There are many levels of hell I'm sure and it sounds like your night wasn't a whole lot of fun. But that WASN'T rape by any stretch of the word. Not even close.

And your 'morning after' test isn't very helpful either.

I've got news for you -- a lot of guys feel dirty too after some drunken or casual sex the night before. Or even without the bppze, there could be a lot of reasons men, just like women, might regret sex. And yes, men can get seduced to. You don't have to be super good looking like me to have that experience. [insert smile]

None of it reads back to rape. That is a very dangerous and unnecessarily provocative bit of wordsmithing there. Next thing you know, you'll be quoting Catherine Mckinnon to us ('all penetration is rape').

Your night in question sounds like a long, dreary, whiny, pathetic and sleazy seduction which, apparently, was failing miserably until you, perhaps to make a point -- who the hell knows? -- gave in. Whatever it was, it wasn't rape.

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Date: Wed, Oct 11, 2000 at 02:31:02 (GMT)
From: janet of venice
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: no, the rapes happened years later, not with him
Message:
reread my posting. i said as much. i treated the premie like he was a john, after i saw what he had been planning all along. the rapes were completely different instances, years later in the alleys of Denver, when i was shadowd and followed and jumped, on my way home from seeing a friend. none of them got what they wanted. i gave them hell in each case, but i still went thru the entire spectrum of symptoms after each one. i got a head injury from one, who bounced my head off glare ice when i struggled against his seizing me. in another, the guy jumped on my back, piggy-back style, but i backed up against a brick garage wall with him there, and pinned him behind my weight, and reached my hand around back of his head and began to sink my fingers into his eye sockets (hey! was i revealing the techniques without authorization??!!!lol!) till he freaked. both attackers escaped and were never caught. i went thru a bizarre spectrum of behaviors, in the aftermath of each experience, which the rape crisis counselors assured me were typical, and that i should just go with it, and let it run its own timetable. i locked myself in my apt. i taped the peephole over with a quarter, convinced that the rapist was on the other side, with a reverse lens, looking in at me when i slept. when i ventured out by necessity, i contrived myself a weapon, by loading round rocks the size of dinosaur eggs inside of 18 layers of plastic grocery sacks, knotted securely inside and disguised to look like plain groceries on the outside,so that the police couldn't stop me for visibly carrying a deadly weapon. I was watchful of all whom i passed on the street, and consumed with fantasies of retribution, rehearsing constantly how i would cave in the head of anyone who tried to get near me, with my stone-sack, if anyone made one false move at me. when that period wore off, i took to carrying a waist high lead pipe as a walking staff, and spun it and swiped at things with it, as i walked. eventually both the symptoms wore off, but to this day, i can't stand the feeling of someone walking behind me. i will step off the walk and wait for them to get ahead of me, before i move on. if they question it, i tell them openly that i got jumped and i can't take it, its not their fault. i am met with understanding, and sometimes a similar story in return.
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Date: Mon, Oct 09, 2000 at 14:17:25 (GMT)
From: shp
Email: None
To: Janet of venice
Subject: Janet's Journey
Message:
Dear Janet,

I know the feeling of freedom that telling the truth gives. You must feel very free right now. The only thing I would even ask you to reconsider is the responsibility that you place on Maharaji for what happened.

This same scenario could have happened in the armed forces, a frat house, in a homeless shelter, at an expensive boarding school, on a scout or church camping trip, the White House, and many other places. It is a classic plotline. It's not Maharaji, but the crazy world we all live in and the breakdown of truthful human communication, the denial of love by our cultures, and the search we all go through to find it that takes on so many weird disguises.

I sincerely believe that he does give a shit about situations like this. Disciples down through all of history always get it wrong and are frequently overzealous. I am not making excuses for them or defending them in any way. I am merely saying that this too is a classic plotline that has reprised itself many times down through history.

My hope in this life is to break free of the repeating classic and classicly flawed plotlines of human experience and evolve and grow and go beyond the games we all have had programmed into our genes for centuries and refresh our memories to a have simpler more truthful and loving life, with the I AM that you speak of as the centerpiece. For me, the Knowledge puts me in that place.

What's done is done. As a parent, I know that doing what is best for the child (even if he's a 22 year old and bigger than you he is still your child) and manifesting as much love to him as you can, and his father doing the same thing, just doing the best you can from the bottom of your heart, even if it is not all the way back to living together, your son will know that you are turning yourself inside out to let him know you love him and he will love you for it and slowly understand that you and his father have deep divisions that do not allow for a total reconciliation.

I know what rape feels like. I got it from corporate America, a few very abusive employers and some Federal goverment hacks. Same feeling.

shp

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Date: Mon, Oct 09, 2000 at 18:26:51 (GMT)
From: JohnT
Email: None
To: shp
Subject: What your best friends won't tell you
Message:
shp: I know what rape feels like. I got it from corporate America, a few very abusive employers and some Federal goverment hacks. Same feeling.

YOU ARE DISGUSTING

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Date: Mon, Oct 09, 2000 at 18:25:28 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: shp
Subject: And, shp, you idiot, that's even LESS rape
Message:
God!

First I read Janet's post and replied.

But then I read yours!

What a pathetic drama queen you are, shp! Too much!

How're the lightbulbs selling, by the way?

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Date: Mon, Oct 09, 2000 at 18:36:07 (GMT)
From: shp
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: You, being the intellectual rapist that you are,
Message:
don't have a clue. You mentally rape people for a living if that is what it takes. Your profession is not off limits here anymore than my lightbulbs are. I am not into that anymore, but you will still twist words ofr a living if you have to. And you are known for it here by both premies and ex-premies. Go ahead, tell me I'm wrong. Twist a few more, what the hell.
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Date: Mon, Oct 09, 2000 at 19:17:02 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: shp
Subject: ***FA, WOULD YOU PLEASE EMPTY THE TRASH?****
Message:
Isn't it time to get rid of shp?

Personally, I'm less and less inclined to support ongoing long-term visits from entrenched idiots like shp.

We don't need him. We just went a perfectly fine spell without any dumb premie intervention and it was great.

Wasn't he blocked or limited once before? I mean, the guy's unreachable, yes, but worse, he's pedantic in the extreme. He's not here to communicate, he's here to irritate.

Please?

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Date: Mon, Oct 09, 2000 at 20:08:37 (GMT)
From: cq
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: unreachable and pedantic, yes, Jim, but then ...
Message:
Shp's a classic candidate for how the 'would-be exes who never quite made it out', are still thinking.

But why should any of us care? Just ignore the guy if he's off-base for you.

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Date: Tues, Oct 10, 2000 at 12:23:19 (GMT)
From: JohnT
Email: None
To: cq
Subject: the ignorance of shp
Message:
Hi Chris,

I dunno about Jim, but I've certainly tried to ignore shp, pretty much ever since I was a (rather well genned up) newbie here. After a few posts to him I was convinced by his replies that sandy is pretty much braindead (sorry Katie) -- at least as far as being able to think about the relationship between THAT experience and THAT guy goes.

And, until last night, I had by and large succeeded in ignoring shp for months, even though I find his damaged thinking repellent and offensive.

Unlike many premies that come here to reclaim their minds, shp is NOT sincere. He comes here to rile and to preach and to try to prevent the forum from talking people out of the cult. And that is not easy to ignore, as our similar experience with the similarly abusive Mike Fronke demonstrated.

Apart from the practical difficulties of appearing to concede shp's misrepresentations, distortions and downright stupidity (as in I know what it's like to be raped 'cos a beaurocrat was once horrid to me) by accepting in silence his preposterous posturing -- apart from that -- there seems to me to be a logical problem in the course of action you urge upon Jim (even though I think in this particular case it is actually quite good advice, so long as cover is given against sandy's unpleasantness against his selected targets).

For if, as you say, Jim should just ignore shp -- could not Jim equally ask that cq just ignore Jim?

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Date: Tues, Oct 10, 2000 at 18:46:21 (GMT)
From: cq
Email: None
To: JohnT
Subject: 'ignoring' vs ignorance?
Message:
Ignore Jim? How could I? ;)

Jim could ask me to ignore him, but someone who spends as much time and energy posting here surely doesn't want to be ignored do they?

As for Shp - well, I guess for my suggestion to work it's pretty much dependent on everyone ignoring him. Which could work.

I've only replied to Shp's posts when I thought I could get through to him. But that started to lose its thrill when I began to realise that this guy is 'dyed-in-the-wool' old-school premie. And the old doctrines are so transparently inane, that trying to apply any logic to them is almost an affront to intelligence!

But why did I make the suggestion in the first place? Well, blocking posts that we don't agree with/have time for is just what the likes of EV and Enjoying Life do, isn't it? Seems a shame to use the same forms of censorship as them.

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Date: Tues, Oct 10, 2000 at 21:10:39 (GMT)
From: JohnT
Email: None
To: cq
Subject: 'ignoring' vs ignorance?
Message:
I don't think ignoring shp and other similarly abusive premie posters would or even could work. Any plan that depends on everyone toeing a line is fragile (in the absense of enforcers). How could an Ex newly finding this place know that that the slime toad's propagandists and apologists were just here to be ignored. Like, why have 'em taking up space here at all, in that case?

And there's a logical difficulty. If such a plan were adopted, and I failed to toe the line, would you remonstrate with me? If so, I should say, 'hey bud, just ignore me not ignoring them'!

There is real and objective problem with cultist thinking. It is not just cult survivors who can see it here in the cold text.

Here we are deprived of vocal inflexions; facial expressions; body postures; movements; and the panoply of cues exploited by skilful actors. In this stripped down world the evasions and distortions of those acting a part with something to hide are no longer hidden by masking tones and supplicating gestures. The self deception of the cultist becomes plainly apparent. The mutilated minds; the wilful distortion of reason's light; the smugly stunted emotionality -- these vile consequenses of Rawat's perverted spirituality are here completely exposed.

It is not censorship to require that people genuinely engage in good heart and sincere minds. The censors are those that come here to obstruct and confuse the liberating discourses of ex-premie.org!

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Date: Tues, Oct 10, 2000 at 23:02:28 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: JohnT
Subject: You are right on da' money with that one, John
Message:
Your whole post is excellent but this says it all:

It is not censorship to require that people genuinely engage in good heart and sincere minds. The censors are those that come here to obstruct and confuse the liberating discourses of ex-premie.org!

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Date: Wed, Oct 11, 2000 at 02:11:50 (GMT)
From: shp
Email: None
To: Jim and John
Subject: To all you geniuses whose name starts with a 'J'
Message:
Jim,

Please read the excerpts from your Forum's 'welcome mat'.
Then print it out, roll it up in a real nice tight roll, and shove it up your ass. Maybe you'll get the message that way, because you sure don't get it through reading comprehension.

shp

'The Forum is an unmoderated collection of ongoing threaded discussions where ex-premies, current premies, and non-premies express their views on anything and everything related to following Maharaji, practicing Knowledge, and life afterwards. We always welcome new participants to the Forum, but please read
the following before you enter.

We advise that you read the messages for a few days before you begin posting. This will give you a general idea of what people are talking about, and of the style of communication commonly used here.

If you wish to post anonymously, pick a pseudonym, and stick to it. This will prevent confusion, and help people get to know you.

If you are a current premie, be aware that most of the people who post on the Forum are ex-premies, and that some ex's will be expressing negative feelings towards Maharaji and his organization. If you post pro-Maharaji messages, you may be met with anger or ridicule. Be prepared for this, but don't let it deter you from expressing your own views and feelings here....

Because many of the people who post have gotten to know each other over time, they often tease, insult, or argue with each other. As in any group of people, a person's best side may not be the side that they are currently showing in their latest post. Human relations are a dynamic condition rather than a static one and are subject to change over time - for the better or the worse.

A certain amount of talking and joking about subjects that are unrelated to Maharaji does happen on the forum. We don't encourage or discourage this.

Try to be reasonably civil when posting messages on the Forum, but be aware that 'flaming' does occur here at times.....'

No shit... really?

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Date: Wed, Oct 11, 2000 at 02:34:20 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: shp
Subject: Jump out of the 'material PLANE' shp!
Message:
Ha ha haha...

Too fucking funny.

Come on, shp, you have to admit that you really walked into that one, huh?

And yes, I agree with you, the guidelines are misleading. You're not welcome here. Get lost.

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Date: Tues, Oct 10, 2000 at 19:07:13 (GMT)
From: Susan
Email: None
To: cq
Subject: 'ignoring' vs ignorance?
Message:
I always think SHP just wants the last word and so does Jim. I have mixed feelings about SHP myself. I do have a kind of respect for him because he actually wrote a letter to EV about Jagdeo. I feel he has been in a personal way supportive of me and I respect that. But, I also agree that he is an 'old school' premie and immune to logic about the guru. I talked with him once on the phone actually. That gave me more insight than a zillion posts ever could, it was like going through some sort of eerie time warp and getting 'satsanged'. Your insights, as they often are CQ, are right on. And Sandy, I hope I did not hurt your feelings by calling you an old school premie. I was once myself. I remain touched and impressed by the letter you wrote to EV and that you had the guts to share it with me. But I also think you remain a cult victim who hasn't, and may never, see it for what it is. That saddens me.
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Date: Tues, Oct 10, 2000 at 21:27:58 (GMT)
From: JohnT
Email: None
To: Susan
Subject: 'ignoring' vs ignorance?
Message:
There is little or nothing in what you say that a person should oppose.

I hope then you will not think me harsh or brutal for urging that your kindly gratitude be balanced with this heartfelt realisation -- when folk act decently and responsibly towards you, it is only what you deserve.

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Date: Tues, Oct 10, 2000 at 22:15:52 (GMT)
From: Susan
Email: None
To: JohnT
Subject: you're right again
Message:
But in the Maharaji cult, what SHP did IS an anomaly, as he took a stand, signed a letter with his name to it, that would make EV and Rawat uncomfortable. If he didn't already have a 'shadow escort' at every event he probably will now.

But yes, I agree, he was only doing the right thing, it just is that very few premies do that when doing the right things sitting a few rows further back from the master's feet.

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Date: Tues, Oct 10, 2000 at 23:02:19 (GMT)
From: shp
Email: None
To: Susan
Subject: Hi Susan
Message:
Yes, I am an anomaly in the premie world.
No, I am not afraid of being 'shadowed'.
No, I did not join a secret society.
Yes, I feel totally free to be me.
Yes, I understand both your feelings and the feelings of those who can't stand me and some of the things I say.
Yes, it was just normal human behavior as someone else said, that I felt for you and inquired of the very organization I belong to to find out about some very unpleasant and hurtful things that happened to you and others....but as a premie it stick outs.
I can't speak for anyone else, and I don't try to.
If I come out like an old premie, then I guess that's what I am.
That doesn't mean I'm unable to be communicated with by you or anyone else here. You see walls in me and I see walls in you.
I am not trying to talk anyone out of being an ex. Are you all trying to talk me out of being a premie? I thought that if we all talked about our experiences, then we'd all come to our own conclusions and nobody would have to judge anybody else or call anyone names. I respect your right to believe anything you choose to. You don't hear me all digusted dialogging with other premies about how dense you all are and why don't you all get it together and be premies again, do you? That's because that's not my stand. But every time I turn around, somebody is freaking out because I haven't turned. What's all that about?

Anyway, hi Susan. Why should a premie be afraid to question the organization that supports the thing and find out what the hell is going on, anytime they want to. EV is not any more divine than I am, last time I looked. I like to think of it as another form of 'participation'.

So take care and thank you for seeing what little good in me may be left, according to the pundits here.

Your brother,
shp

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Date: Tues, Oct 10, 2000 at 23:11:12 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: shp
Subject: Tell me, Susan, what do you think shp wants here?
Message:
Personally, I think he's happy as hell that he bought you (so he thinks) with that nominal gesture of his. Hey, he's got a defender here, no matter what.

But do you remember how he later resiled from any of the moral independence he appeared to be willing to assert initially? Where's the follow up?

Instead, we have the real shp, the one who's only answer to Maharaji's flagrant wasting of MILLIONS OF PREMIES DOLLARS is that it's all a red herring. That the Master can do what he wants, it's not for him to judge.

Honestly, ask yourself this: do you think that shp hasn't easily extended that kind of carte blanche excuse to Maharaji for not taking Jagdeo out of commission too?

Of course he has!

Millions of dollars out of premies' pockets, turning a blind eye to a little perverse indeceny, what's the diff? It's not shp's role to judge or understand. And all the 'wittow wittow ones'? Fuck 'em. Maharaji's the Lord and that's that.

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Date: Tues, Oct 10, 2000 at 22:22:52 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Susan
Subject: Give him his nickel back and send him to hell!
Message:
God Susan!

Shp really bought your heart with that little gesture, didn't he? Let's do it 'for the little ones.'

I'm gonna puke

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Date: Tues, Oct 10, 2000 at 22:40:29 (GMT)
From: Susan
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: LOL LOL
Message:
Jim you are too funny.

Are you still in the bathroom puking?

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Date: Tues, Oct 10, 2000 at 22:50:32 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Susan
Subject: No, I didn't make it to the bathroom
Message:
You should see my keyboard. And my suit. I'm back from the office -- didn't have to run to court after all -- and didn't change before checking in. This WAS a nice suit. I'm sending the bill to you and shp. You guys can divide it however you deem just.
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Date: Tues, Oct 10, 2000 at 23:07:06 (GMT)
From: shp
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: No, I didn't make it to the bathroom
Message:
So finally your mental and verbal incontinence has spilled over to the material plane? It was bound to happen sooner or later.
You do think and say something long enough a certain and it manifests. And you want me to pay for it, even it jest? Learn control, if only of your depracating humor.
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Date: Tues, Oct 10, 2000 at 23:31:21 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: shp
Subject: Oh no! He's talking about the 'material plane'!
Message:
Too fucking funny, you idiot!

Look, asshole, we've been talking about the 'material plane' for days now. That's the thing that you said doesn't matter.

But maybe you want to talk about the 'material plain' That would be a really dumb new-age thing right up your alley. Need a little help?

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Date: Mon, Oct 09, 2000 at 19:05:00 (GMT)
From: JohnT
Email: None
To: shp
Subject: shp, you are DISGUSTING nt
Message:
no text (not worth it)
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Date: Mon, Oct 09, 2000 at 14:25:22 (GMT)
From: gerry
Email: None
To: shp
Subject: You're shameless, shp
Message:
I know what rape feels like. I got it from corporate America, a few very abusive employers and some Federal goverment hacks. Same feeling.

You patronising ass, you really think employer woes and rape are equivalent?

You're fucking nuts.

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Date: Mon, Oct 09, 2000 at 14:30:20 (GMT)
From: shp
Email: None
To: gerry
Subject: hey hey hey hey hey gerrrrrrry
Message:
Janet and I are talking over hear!
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Date: Mon, Oct 09, 2000 at 18:27:48 (GMT)
From: hamzen
Email: None
To: shp
Subject: Ha ha ha, still around shp
Message:
What happened to all your heartfely concern over not wanting to wind people up?

Same ole, same ole

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Date: Mon, Oct 09, 2000 at 18:39:45 (GMT)
From: shp
Email: None
To: hamzen
Subject: well, ham, it's like this....
Message:
I was having this dialog with Janet and was accosted one more than one side by some hyenas frothing at the mouth. I am still in dialog with Janet, but I am having to fend off or ignore the slings and arrows of some really bad shots. I find that fending them off sharpens by wits, and ignoring them has it time as well.
Sometimes I may respond to the shit and sometimes I may just ignore it.

How you doin'?

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Date: Mon, Oct 09, 2000 at 19:33:10 (GMT)
From: JohnT
Email: None
To: shp
Subject: Get lost shp. Ooops you ARE lost. Get LOSTER (nt)
Message:
no text. not worth it.
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Date: Mon, Oct 09, 2000 at 14:50:09 (GMT)
From: gerry
Email: None
To: shp
Subject: go suck energy someplace else
Message:
you vampire!
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Date: Sun, Oct 08, 2000 at 21:13:58 (GMT)
From: shp
Email: None
To: janet
Subject: Janet's Journey
Message:
Janet,

I just posted to you and some of it did not come thru for some reason. I cannot remember it all, but basically I just wanted to say that I am sorry if anything I said hurt you. It was not my intention.

shp

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Date: Sun, Oct 08, 2000 at 17:17:02 (GMT)
From: Katie
Email: None
To: Janet of venice
Subject: Janet's Journey
Message:
Dear Janet -
First, thank you so much for writing your Journey. It can't have been easy to write, but you do communicate very well.

I'm glad your ex is recovering (and I think your compassion towards him is remarkable), and I hope for your and his sakes that he's able to 'make amends'. I have found through experience with my own family that the biggest harms are the hardest things for people to make amends for - I think sometimes the idea of going back and really thinking about what YOU did and suffering the consequent guilt can be overwhelming. Sounds like your ex has been going through several life-changing experiences lately - he may need time to absorb and integrate it all.

Two specific things about your journey that I could relate to:
1. Behavior of premie men - I have experienced this (things like being abandoned at festivals because M was more important) and so have many other people here. I know there are men here who were good partners when they were involved in the cult, but so many others were not. I still have bad feelings about being accused of 'distracting' some man from Maharaji, or not being 'devoted' enough because I wanted to have a committed relationship.

2. I was in a darshan line in the 70's with my 15-year old sister and a friend of hers who was diabetic. It was very hot and we were waiting for Maharaji outside, under the sun. Naturally, he was VERY late, and my friend started to get sick (I did too). We were afraid to leave the line, although we weren't physically prevented like you were. We were not able to get even water from the people in charge - basically, they told us to tough it out. Finally Maharaji did come around - I hardly remember it, and I had to drag the two girls to someplace where we could get water and some kind of food.

Anyway, I posted this story on here, and several sincere premies told me that 'things have changed' from those days, and that people are not treated like that anymore. I think these people honestly believed this. Well, after reading your story, I can see that that is obviously not true. Should we blame the premies in charge in both cases, as HG suggest below - I don't think so! We are talking about two incidents 25 years apart, and the attitude is the same. I believe this attitude towards individual premies comes from Maharaji.

I'm really glad you found this forum and site, and that it's been helpful to you (not to mention your ex.)

Love,
Katie

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Date: Sun, Oct 08, 2000 at 00:02:34 (GMT)
From: Sir Dave
Email: None
To: Brian
Subject: Janet's Journey
Message:
This story well illustrates just how Maharaji's whole trip falls very short of actually doing any real help in the world. It shows that Maharaji and premies live in a narrow perception while all the world goes on around them. They try to ignore that world but of course, it eventually catches up with them.

Maharaji's cult is a 'fair weather cult'. I mean by that that it's only there for people who have the money, the health and the energy to participate. When things go seriously wrong in life, Maharaji and his cult are totally useless in providing any help or support.

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Date: Sat, Oct 07, 2000 at 16:56:21 (GMT)
From: Susan
Email: None
To: Janet
Subject: touching and powerful story
Message:
Janet, you really have a way of communicating raw feeling that is hard to ignore, and hard to read. Your journey is an important statement.

I hope you post more.

Susan

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Date: Sat, Oct 07, 2000 at 21:31:36 (GMT)
From: Susan
Email: None
To: Janet
Subject: does your ex post here?
Message:
do we 'know' him?
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Date: Mon, Oct 09, 2000 at 01:20:12 (GMT)
From: Probably not at this time
Email: None
To: Susan
Subject: yes he has posted here. For a couple years.-nt
Message:
ldfgjl
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Date: Mon, Oct 09, 2000 at 09:38:22 (GMT)
From: Janet of venice
Email: None
To: Probably not at this time
Subject: yes he has posted here. For a couple years.
Message:
if that's you, i'd be genuinely interesed to read your posts. if they are in the archives, can you find them in a string search and give me links?

if you feel better not posting, thats ok with me too. i dont care who sees mine. i appreciate all this validation. we have all been treated atrociously for a long time.

i do feel compassion, despite all the crappy treatment i've endured. being treated badly says more about the person doing the treating than it does the person taking it.

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Date: Mon, Oct 09, 2000 at 01:34:47 (GMT)
From: bb
Email: None
To: Probably not at this time
Subject: There are of course two sides to a couples story.
Message:
nivevndjvd;
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Date: Mon, Oct 09, 2000 at 01:57:28 (GMT)
From: bb
Email: None
To: bb
Subject: It aint me by the way.
Message:
dfh
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Date: Sat, Oct 07, 2000 at 16:24:04 (GMT)
From: shp
Email: None
To: Brian
Subject: Janet's Journey
Message:
I just read Janet's Journey, waiting for some incriminating thing to be shoved in my face about Maharaji, and encountred none.
I read a sad story about a woman who gave a man a 'pity-f*ck' and things got worse from there. Pity and cruelty go hand in hand.
Nobody really wants pity.

I feel for her and her estranged husband, but especially for the son. I hope he can find his way to have a decent life. I don't believe anyone gets to be on earth in a human body by accident.

I know for sure some of you will jump on me as being insensitive
mean, nasty, etc, for this short but concise post. I most certainly am not being any of those things. Just calling it like I see it, with much compassion and wishing the best to Janet and her son and ex.

shp

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Date: Sun, Oct 08, 2000 at 04:01:43 (GMT)
From: Helen
Email: None
To: shp
Subject: Janet's Journey
Message:
Don't you think it was a bit weird that noone would give the woman something to eat at that festival? Isn't that common sense, a person is having a hypoglycemic attack, you give them something to eat? Don't you see anything a little nazi-ish about that scenario?

Can't you see how the stuff that goes on in premie land comes from the top down? Comes from M?

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Date: Sun, Oct 08, 2000 at 20:07:13 (GMT)
From: shp
Email: None
To: Helen
Subject: Janet's Journey
Message:
Hi Helen!

I can only speak for myself.

I would have given her something to eat and drink and made her as comfortable as possible. I would have asked her a number of questions if I thought she was in any sort of medical distress or emergency and responded accordingly based on her answers. If necessary I would have arranged her transport to wherever else she would have to go, back home, to a hospital, to connect with someone there to help her, perhaps ask if there was a premie doctor in the house. If that would haved violated EV's policy, so be it. That's just me.

The obvious lack of consciousness of the security people who dealt with her should be brought to the attention of EV executive officers, for the purpose of re-training the 'security' people to be more attentive to people who may be in distress. This scenario reminds me of a scene in 'Three Kings' where Mark Walberg has a valve shoved into his chest to relieve air pressure in his chest cavity resulting from a gunshot wound. An unsuspecting soldier is ordered to handcuff him, which made him unable to turn the valve and release the air pressure. Finally, the soldier noticed the valve sticking out of his chest and him struggling for air, and cut him free.

I too have experienced some very weird stuff at the hands of the 'security' myself. Once at a program at CW Post College on Long Island, I believe it was, my wife really had to go, and they would not let her into the building even though it was verrry early in the day and hardly anyone was around. They radioed the college custodian, had him meet up with us and escort us to another building about 100 yards away, just to use the bathroom.
That bothered me. I could tell how uncomfortable my wife was, but she's not one to complain out loud in public, as I am when the occasion arises. It isn't like we were strangers. Everybody recognized everybody. My wife has had Knowledge since '73.

I think they were more into the letter of the law than the spirit of the law. Maybe they were told to keep the building secure and took it to mean even if a little lady premie had to go potty many hours prior to the event. I think if by some quirk, Maharaji himself came to the door, he would definitely have let her in.

Sandy

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Date: Sun, Oct 08, 2000 at 23:19:50 (GMT)
From: Bin Liner
Email: None
To: shp
Subject: Janet's Journey
Message:

This is the 2nd time you've referred to a crap movie in order to make a point.

Why don't you shove M Wallbag's air-valve right up your arse?


Next time you take Mrs.shp to an event, why not encourage her to drink several bottles of mineral water beforehand, then get up on stage & piss all over SHITLER, then watch for the 'quirky'
response.


If that was cruel, too bad . I'm getting angry at having been betrayed at a level so deep I can't yet come to terms with it.

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Date: Mon, Oct 09, 2000 at 02:09:22 (GMT)
From: shp
Email: None
To: Bin Liner
Subject: Janet's Journey
Message:
OK.....
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Date: Sun, Oct 08, 2000 at 12:33:45 (GMT)
From: H.G
Email: None
To: Helen
Subject: Janet's Journey
Message:
Look I dont want to live here but really that is over the top. What happened was the result of some fool's total lack of common sense, and perhaps empathy and simple human kindness. You cannot blame M for such acts. Its like ANTH's straw that broke his two humped British back. In that case a fool sent someone back out into the rain rather than find a more sensible solution. Fools are fools , it matters little why they act and respond in the way that they do.

Statements like that are ridiculous and show up just how fucked up some of the posters here really are. What do you think it is , a rerun of the sixties classic 'The Time Machine' with Robert Taylor and a cast of sonambulist zombies? Sheesh!!

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Date: Sun, Oct 08, 2000 at 17:25:26 (GMT)
From: Katie
Email: None
To: H.G
Subject: Don't blame the premies
Message:
dear HG -
Please read my post to Janet above. This is not an isolated incident. There are so many stories about the rudeness and lack of empathy shown to individual premies at events that I find it difficult to blame all those individual premies who perpetrated all those acts.

What Janet described is yet another manifestation of an attitude problem that's persisted as long as Maharaji has been around (through many changes in premie leadership), and I believe it DOES come from Maharaji himself. The attitude is that Maharaji is important and individual premies are not.

The only other logical answer is that most of the premies who help run these events are all rude and inconsiderate fools who are lacking in human compassion. That doesn't say much about Maharaji either, does it?

Sincerely,
Katie

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Date: Sun, Oct 08, 2000 at 23:07:46 (GMT)
From: H.G
Email: None
To: Katie
Subject: Don't blame the premies
Message:
It is a lot simpler than that. Often people are asked to perform tasks they are neither qualified or capable of carrying out. Rather than saying so , they just push on...to the detriment of all..including M. Being a P doesn't give you a licence not to think or to do what you think is best.Major events ,whoever stages them must be guided by general protocols. It is no different to any other large event and people attending should not expect any more or less than if they went to see any other key note speaker. They will experience in the main a higher level of care and compassion. However there will always be unfortunate exceptions when dealing with largely volunteer staffing. What you are suggesting is a theory. Without one scrap of linking evidence
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Date: Wed, Oct 11, 2000 at 02:05:19 (GMT)
From: Helen
Email: None
To: H.G
Subject: you sound like the corporate spokesperson
Message:
H.G. you sound like a corporate spokesperson! I don't care how high fallutin' a conference or meeting is (and I have been to a few), if someone is sick and needs something to eat, you get them something to eat. Even down at the World Bank or IMF,during a conference, if someone were sick, someone would find them medical attention. SHEESH!
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Date: Wed, Oct 11, 2000 at 01:44:16 (GMT)
From: Forum Administrator
Email: None
To: H.G
Subject: Don't we know you?
Message:
You sound kinda familiar, HG.

Care to tell us a bit more about yourself. Who you've posted as before..?

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Date: Sun, Oct 08, 2000 at 14:29:30 (GMT)
From: Brian
Email: brian@ex-premie.org
To: H.G
Subject: Fool's Fool
Message:
What happened was the result of some fool's total lack of common sense, and perhaps empathy and simple human kindness. You cannot blame M for such acts. Its like ANTH's straw that broke his two humped British back. In that case a fool sent someone back out into the rain rather than find a more sensible solution. Fools are fools , it matters little why they act and respond in the way that they do.

That is simply not so. Who is ultimiately responsible for selecting those who are in a position at these events to determine who does and doesn't get entry? Or get a chair? Or get food? Or get medical attention?

Who is selecting these fools, and empowering them with this authority? Who is responsible for the policies set out in writing regarding how to be an usher at these events? Who is ultimately responsible for the words in the scripts that these fools are supposed to adhere to?

Certainly anyone who would turn a blind eye on the suffering around them is a fool. So, can YOU see it?

Maharaji called that meeting. He sets the policies. It's his cult. He's the only Speaker.

That nothing has changed in Msharaji-Land since the days that Anth heard his last drip speaks volumes about the fools out there willing to take the place of someone who has had enough and left. But it also testifies to the foolishness required by Maharaji in the first place.

What he wants he gets. And yes he gets it from fools. But he demands and requires that people act foolishly. Those who are capable of independent thought decide to leave, just like Anth did.

The rest stand by Maharaji, and defend his innocence.

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Date: Mon, Oct 09, 2000 at 10:21:53 (GMT)
From: janet of venice
Email: None
To: Brian
Subject: Fool's Fool
Message:
you have to think on this one a little bit. MJ called the program. MJ made a video of the K techniques. MJ had to tell EV to get him a hall to do this in. Someone had to have made choices and decisions what to order of the services abailable at the facility. i have attended other events held there, both by MJ and by such users as the international gem show. they will always want to know what you will need of their provisions. will you want their food service? wil you want outdoor seating? will you want partitions? will you want auditorium seating? will you want their security guards or will you be bringing your own? will you need curtaining, railings, use of the box office or ticket booth? on and on.
obviously somebody was asked these, point by point, in procuring the hall on short notice, and somebody said yes and no to each point. the rental couldnt have been made without it.
how is it they had chairs for the staff, but not the members? how is it that i found a tiny area curtained off with three empty chairs on one end of the teeming lobby, and sat down gratefully for a few moments, only to be rousted by a snappish looking corporate woman in a business suit, and told the chairs were for members of the press--in the event that any might come(!!!)(none ever did). I reasonably offered to rise at once if any such came, and move on--but she curtly ordered me to leave the area at once and folded up the three chairs and pulled the curtains, and then left the cubicle. empty.

i wandered all over the hall, looking in vain for a chair. the lobby was teeming with EV tables, briskly hawking their wares. the house food service was briskly selling gourmet coffees, which would kick a hypoglycemic straight into coma. there was no other food to be had, for blocks in all directions.there also were no atm's. the area outdoors where other events customarily set up chairs and eating tables, had none. the side rooms were lined with chairs, all along the walls, and were-every one, occupied by EV people with badges, busily moving papers around, brusquely processing people for smart cards, photographs,seat asignments, special needs, all to a redundancy factor of five. but zero chairs open for those attending. no ledges, planters,benches, windowsills, nowhere to rest. at one point i went out to the lawn and lay down, but the lawn was wet from sprinklers, and i began to itch from possible fertiizers sprayed on it.

my back was in agony because 5 years ago i broke my left shin clean thru into 3 pieces, while trying to rollerblade, and my doctor ignored my reports that the bones slipped inside the cast, the day i got home. as a result, my left leg healed an inch short of my intact right one, and my spine has curved to compensate for the unbalanced gait. i am 2 years into menopause and my bones are losing mineral mass.there is an agonizing pain growing in my left hip joint that never abates.it doesnt matter which leg i stand on. either one shifts my pelvis too far, so getting off my unequal legs is the only way i can escape the pain. but sitting in a chair for too long in the same position brings it on after a bit too, so i have to move. hence my begging to be allowed to sit on the floor somewhere unobtrusive.

but there was not a chair to be found, not for the likes of me. i was participating, but i wasnt doing any 'service', so i didnt rank.

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Date: Sun, Oct 08, 2000 at 23:12:06 (GMT)
From: H .G
Email: None
To: Brian
Subject: Fool's Fool
Message:
You are passionate and poignant . But you are totally wrong. Just as Tom Robbins does not organise the ushers in the foyer to the last detail , neither does M. Dream on.
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Date: Mon, Oct 09, 2000 at 13:14:35 (GMT)
From: Jean-Michel
Email: None
To: H .G
Subject: Abusers around the Main Abuser
Message:
I've been myself a direct victim of many abusers around Mr Rawat.

I won't tell their names here, but these guys were under his direct orders and were acting on his behalf. I think I'll write something on all those situations I remember.

And that happened many many times. I've been lucky enough (if you can say so) to be a victim of these abuses (usually verbal and behavioral) as I had many opportunities to 'do service' in EV's 'high spheres'.

And it took me 24 years to understand and admit that there is One Person responsible for that situation, and only one: their boss.

Way too many 'drips' for me too !!!

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Date: Sun, Oct 08, 2000 at 17:18:25 (GMT)
From: Helen
Email: None
To: Brian
Subject: Fool's Fool
Message:
Dear Brian,
I agree. One 'drip' experience does not a dysfunctional leader make, but trillions of drips later, a person has to wake up and see the connection. M is the consummate dysfunctional leader and these countless paranoid acts on the part of his PAMS speak to that loud and clear.

Glad to hear from ya Brian!
Helen

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Date: Sun, Oct 08, 2000 at 14:48:17 (GMT)
From: Salam
Email: None
To: Brian
Subject: It is all a matter of numbers.
Message:
How many fools are between the fools. 99%. The rest are on the way out.
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Date: Sun, Oct 08, 2000 at 02:35:00 (GMT)
From: G
Email: None
To: shp
Subject: an incriminating thing
Message:

I just read Janet's Journey, waiting for some incriminating thing to be shoved in my face about Maharaji, and encountred none.

Here is one incriminating thing:
... spent my pregnant year being dragged all over the country by him, while he spent what should have been our rent to settle in, chasing after u-no-hoo. More of the same after the baby was born. ...
This kind of irresponsible behavior hasn't been discouraged by Prem Rawat. In fact, it has actually been repeatedly encouraged by him. Just a few months ago a premie in the UK posted at ELK about getting two days notice about a one day program in Australia. This premie's comment about Rawat was 'bastard bastard bastard'. This premie and at least one other dropped everything, spent a fortune on plane tickets, and went to the one day program. The irresponsibility of this was mentioned by the premie. Now, ELK is edited for 'clarity', which indicates that Elan Vital's (and therefore Rawat's) position is that Rawat really is a bastard, and that this behaviour, even though it's irresponsible, shows 'clarity'.

Eat that.

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Date: Sun, Oct 08, 2000 at 21:28:58 (GMT)
From: shp
Email: None
To: G
Subject: We all have free will all the time...
Message:
...and can choose what we do.

If we choose to do whatever Maharaji says, including zap around the world on 48 hours notice putting us in deep debt, then we must take the responsibility for the action and not cry in our beer afterwards. If we choose to pass on it, then we pass on it. If he is who is he, our hearts are known and actions and distance don't mean so much.

I believe one can be closer to him inside thousands of miles away
than in the same room spacing out. Some might say I'm doing my own brand of the thing, but I just think I'm using common sense and Knowledge together. If he called an event and said 'this one you can't miss if you are with me', that one I would really make a stretch to attend.

shp

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Date: Sun, Oct 08, 2000 at 22:27:00 (GMT)
From: G
Email: None
To: shp
Subject: free will
Message:

We all have free will all the time and can choose what we do.

That is true only to a certain degree. If someone doesn't realize they have free will, they might as well not have it. If a premie feels like they have to respond to Rawat, then their free will has been compromised. Rawat shares partial responsibility for that because he has convinced them that they need to respond.

The fact remains that Rawat encourages irresponsible behavior.

If we choose to do whatever Maharaji says, including zap around the world on 48 hours notice putting us in deep debt, then we must take the responsibility for the action and not cry in our beer afterwards.

Partial responsibility, not full responsibility, things are not that clear cut. Rawat shares partial responsibility because he more than encourages this kind of behavior and has deeply affected the mentality of premies. It's called 'mind control'. And does this premie have a right to complain by saying 'bastard bastard bastard'? Certainly.

If he is who is he

What are you saying? Did you mean 'If he is who he is?' What are you implying? He is who he is, you are who you are, I am who I am. So? Are you timidly implying that he might be God but you have doubts?

our hearts are known and actions and distance don't mean so much.

Again, what are you saying? Our hearts are known by ...? Why can't you just come out with what you are saying? I take 'actions and distance don't mean so much' to mean that you think there is some unique extra-special connection between you and Rawat. How do you know? Maybe he's completely unaware of you.

I believe one can be closer to him inside thousands of miles away than in the same room spacing out. Some might say I'm doing my own brand of the thing, but I just think I'm using common sense and Knowledge together.

Prem Rawat is not inside of you. If you really thought he was God, you would write 'Him'. No, he's not God, God incarnate, the highest manifestation of God, surrendered, enlightened, or anything of the sort. Wouldn't it be easier to be closer to yourself?

Besides, the issue is that he encourages irresponsible behaviour. You are not addressing the fact that he does this. Instead, you are trying to side step the issue with diversions.

If he called an event and said 'this one you can't miss if you are with me', that one I would really make a stretch to attend.

That's just another diversion. You're saying something like 'Oh, he didn't ORDER these premies to attend', similar to the 'Nobody put a gun to your head' excuse. That's not how a good con game works.

He DOES more than encourage premies to travel all over the world just to see and listen to him. Who the hell does he think he is, God or something?

If he did say this, why would you comply? What does 'with me' really mean? Perhaps it means subservience. You can miss any event you want to. This is what premies need to realize, they don't need to obey Prem Rawat. They obey because they think they have to for the sake of their souls.


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Date: Mon, Oct 09, 2000 at 02:21:49 (GMT)
From: shp
Email: None
To: G
Subject: free will
Message:
I am not going to respond to every line item, but I understand what you are saying. At some point in one's life, hopefully one is hipped to the fact that they have free will. They should teach it in kindergarten or earlier if you ask me.

We don't talk about love much here. That most misused word doesn't show up here much. I wish it did for what it really and truly is, and that we here all related through it as a central clearing house for whatever is being said, and not have so many
assumptions of adversarial malice flying.

The hurt I just felt from your post and other recent ones was tangible. I do not belittle that.

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Date: Mon, Oct 09, 2000 at 02:26:11 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: shp
Subject: You're such the drama queen, aren't you shp?
Message:
You deserve everything you get here and then some.

Putz!

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Date: Mon, Oct 09, 2000 at 02:30:52 (GMT)
From: shp
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Truth or dare....
Message:
You are getting drunk, stoned or both right now.
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Date: Mon, Oct 09, 2000 at 03:10:15 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: shp
Subject: Yeah, right
Message:
Sure, idiot, anything you say.

I'm getting ready to go out to dinner, quite frankly. No nothing.

Tell me, Sanford, how does it feel to look at your life and realize that you're just a middle-age, new-age 'looser'?

God that must hurt! I'm SOOOOO sorry for you!

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Date: Mon, Oct 09, 2000 at 14:28:57 (GMT)
From: shp
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Bon apetit
Message:
Sophisticated, debonair, out-to-dinner-attorney who does not need to smoke or drink anything to have delusions of grandeur,

Sticks and stones may break my bones, but names will never hurt me.

Like a little kid in your father's tux you stand there in your caste trappings and spit out things intended to hurt and think it even matters.

What a charade you are, and with a brain so big you don't even see yourself. Must be a blindspot for you, to see yourself.
Too bad. It is the most essential thing you need to be aware of
and you miss yourself entirely. But you can do everybody else real good, can't you? I used to be like you....in junior high school. I grew up. You just got bigger and learned a few tricks to get by in a suit, so nobody would know right off that you never really matured, that is until you opened your mouth.

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Date: Mon, Oct 09, 2000 at 19:39:36 (GMT)
From: JohnT
Email: None
To: shp
Subject: YOU'RE IN YOUR MIND, shp. FO back to rawat nt
Message:
waste of time talking to shp.
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Date: Sun, Oct 08, 2000 at 00:24:19 (GMT)
From: Is your brain Mush?
Email: None
To: shp
Subject: Janet's Journey
Message:
look SHP, I come from the other place and I will tell you something your best friends wont. You are being terribly insensitive , no matter what the circumstances. Some things speak for themselves and dont require comment.
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Date: Sun, Oct 08, 2000 at 21:35:10 (GMT)
From: shp
Email: None
To: Is your brain Mush?
Subject: Janet's Journey
Message:
Look SHP, I come from the other place and I will tell you something your best friends wont. You are being terribly insensitive , no matter what the circumstances. Some things speak for themselves and dont require comment. -Is Your Brain Mush?

shp says:
What 'other place' are you from? And what is everybody doing hiding behind all these fake names? Halloweed is still a few weeks away. I can understand that some here are truly fearful and freaked out by something that happened to them during their affiliation with Maharaji and are associating it with him in many cases. But is everyone here using fake names in that position, or is that a cover to be personally unaccountable for what is said? And you don't know what my best friends tell me, either.

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Date: Mon, Oct 09, 2000 at 20:03:15 (GMT)
From: JohnT
Email: None
To: shp
Subject: shp has no Journey - he's got nowhere nt
Message:
waste of time bothering with shp
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Date: Sat, Oct 07, 2000 at 10:38:22 (GMT)
From: One Of The Judges
Email: Supreme_Court@heaven.org
To: Everyone
Subject: PAM's and M
Message:
Let them burn in hell together in a circle with M at the center so that they can watch him dance.
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Date: Sat, Oct 07, 2000 at 10:14:49 (GMT)
From: Salam
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: Knowledge DVD.
Message:
Why do not we make it easier for everyone to take noolidge and make a recording of the four techniques on a CD/DVD/VIDEO. We can have a manual and online help for newbies. We can sell it though this site and others, the funds could go to pay for site expenses and to help in fighting fat ass lardy and help exes that need it, a sort of a 'charity' thing. Just an idea.
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Date: Sun, Oct 08, 2000 at 03:45:08 (GMT)
From: suchabanana
Email: None
To: Salam, Jim, and everybody
Subject: will post your messages on my site, if you do it!
Message:
Just for the record, dudes:

If your intentions are just mercenary and greedy, then you shouldn't mind everybody else knowing about it, too. I have saved your posted words of capitalist inspiration here, and if I actually find any site charging bucks for profit for the Knowledge by anyone anywhere, I will post links to it -- exposing the scam.

I've got mouths to feed, too. But...

Absolute Honesty and integrity - that's where I draw the line!

Peace,

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Date: Sun, Oct 08, 2000 at 13:57:52 (GMT)
From: Salam
Email: None
To: suchabanana
Subject: will post your messages on my site, if you do it!
Message:
Ah sucha, you're going banana. You do not know what your missing, do not you?
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Date: Sat, Oct 07, 2000 at 19:40:35 (GMT)
From: suchabanana
Email: None
To: Salam
Subject: Don't sell Knowledge or DVD for Money!That's SICK!
Message:
Show and post Knowledge techs, yes (if you want) -- and do it correctly. No solicitations for dough, though!!!

P.S. Don't make yourself into just another greedy fatguru, dude.

Hope you were just joking, Salam. The world doesn't need any more money-grubbing spiritual sharks. That's wrong, man -- BAD karma -- especially at this point.

Peace,

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Date: Sun, Oct 08, 2000 at 01:06:48 (GMT)
From: Salam
Email: None
To: suchabanana
Subject: Don't sell Knowledge or DVD for Money!That's SICK!
Message:
As you can see banana, there is a favourable responce to this venture.
What is wroung with making money. Really I think you are limiting yourself here. I do not hate marraji because he has money. If I did, I will be too busy looking for others with money to hate.
Also, why do you think that is immoral to sell nolije. I am doing the world a favor. How many people out there want this thing, but do not want to get involved in the guru stuff. Or how many people were turned of by Belkis because they did not meet the criteria.
Fortunatly to me, I have come into term with guilt. Notabanana anymore. I will say it is a good idea that will send the guru crying to his mummy.
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Date: Sun, Oct 08, 2000 at 03:27:52 (GMT)
From: suchabanana
Email: None
To: Salam
Subject: Well,I'm going to be offering Kn. FREE no strings!
Message:
Dear Salam:

Whatever, but please know that my friends and I will be offering Knowledge on at least 3 different websites FREE FREE FREE, with no strings whatsoever. No donations, no seminars, free downloadable manual and video files, and no new fake gurus to worship or pay, either.

My ethical Silicon Valley friends and I can spread these techs all over the entire world absolutely free with dignity and kindness, and anyone charging (or requesting) a dime, franc, rupee, peso, etc. in return will simply be wasting their time -- when everyone on the face of the earth with internet access can download a free video and manual -- no strings attached!

Am already working on the layout and text.

Please, don't be greedy, or misguided.
Why imitate him and the other ripoff materialist guru con artists?

Salam: In this life - we have choices: the high road or the low road. I want nothing for myself from this endeavor -- these techniques belong to the Creator and to the human race.

But, if you insist, take the low road and see where you end up...

Peace,

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Date: Sun, Oct 08, 2000 at 04:08:41 (GMT)
From: alam
Email: None
To: suchabanana
Subject: et tu bruto?
Message:
Well I was hopping that you become our PR or legal adviser, but seeing that you are in the opposition group, I have to look for someone else unless you like to have a good severance package? But really you need to sign the confidentiality agreement first.
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Date: Sun, Oct 08, 2000 at 03:31:59 (GMT)
From: G
Email: None
To: suchabanana
Subject: ok but
Message:
That will work for some people, but others incorrectly think that if it's free, it can't be worth anything.
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Date: Sun, Oct 08, 2000 at 03:51:53 (GMT)
From: Salam
Email: None
To: G
Subject: True.
Message:
I have downloaded stuff of the net that I though was good and then deleted them after a week. Having to pay is a committment.

Also sucha should be aware that we intend to protect our reputation from any slander. Sucha needs also to know of our policies on competition. We intend to protect our copy right regarding this issue, and will take legal action to silence their unethical web sites that are trying to put us out of bussiness.

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Date: Sun, Oct 08, 2000 at 20:48:30 (GMT)
From: such
Email: None
To: Salam
Subject: Remember: a greedy guru and his envious disciple..
Message:
'A greedy guru and his envious disciple compete with each other for a place in the circles of hell.'
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Date: Mon, Oct 09, 2000 at 01:38:28 (GMT)
From: Salam
Email: None
To: such
Subject: Remember: a greedy guru and his envious disciple..
Message:
WAKE UP YOU STUPID ASS.

IT'S A FUCKING JOKE.

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Date: Mon, Oct 09, 2000 at 04:16:37 (GMT)
From: suchbananas
Email: None
To: Salam
Subject: Silly me:couldn't tell the salami from the baloney
Message:
Oh, silly me.

I couldn't tell the salami from the baloney!

I'm so so naive -- did I mention that I once followed this funny fat kid for almost 30 years -- and then one day I just woke up -- as if from a dream. And when I looked, the Light was still there -- just as it had been in the very beginning...

Peace

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Date: Sat, Oct 07, 2000 at 19:56:19 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: suchabanana
Subject: Hm, how much do you think we could get?
Message:
Before you say no, Banana, do the numbers.

If we can get, say $20 -- that's not too much to ask for eternal peace, is it? -- from just 1 million Asians and Africans, well that's somewhere around $20 million dollars, I think!

Come on, man, YOU might think it's not worth it but I've got mouths to feed. JUST LIKE THE HAMSTER!

I'm in!

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Date: Sun, Oct 08, 2000 at 02:07:02 (GMT)
From: G
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: That is inexpensive
Message:
$20 is a lot less than what these gurus actually charge. Consider also that people sell CDs with free software on them. They are charging for the convenience. I would adjust the price according to who is buying. I would also include TM mantras, etc. Why stop with the 'Knowledge' techniques?
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Date: Sun, Oct 08, 2000 at 07:17:09 (GMT)
From: JohnT
Email: None
To: G
Subject: distributing knowledge
Message:
Is it OK to be serious?

G's point about the free software is a good one, I think. Linux, for example is distributed under the mutualist GNU General Public License as devised by the Free Software Foundation. The software ('the knowledge') is free, but one can charge for a 'distribution' - a selection of the free software on a CD perhaps, along with a manual and installation program. Redhat; Suse; Corel and others sell shrinkwrapped distributions of Linux in a good PC store near you.

I think that model could be used for distributiong K, you know 'cos it's SOOO important and Rawat has been SOOOOO dismal (despite being helped by the good Dettmers' and his phenomenal team building and management skills) at actually promulgating that beautiful gift. But I would also urge some caution.

It does seem that the techniques (even as rigidly and ignorantly promulgated by Rawat) can actually work. I understand the light technique in particular gave Sir Dave a particularly nasty headache, for example. And just look what they've done to shp! So I would urge that we also set up a network of registered mahatmas that people could turn to for help and advise as needed. A list of registered mahatmas could be included on the CD and on the people's K website.

A post-revolutionary strategy, eh? I bet ol' Karl's turning in his grave wishing he had thought of such a thing!

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Date: Sun, Oct 08, 2000 at 02:27:45 (GMT)
From: Salam
Email: None
To: G
Subject: Execuse me.
Message:
First Jim gives a discount of up to 200%. I said 55 do-llars did not I. Then you come in trying to infiltrate my operation. I said I won't be selling gooroo marragi's DVDs only remember. Anyway G you look like you're good in market research, I will take in.

This is getting serious.

Salam-the-latest-con-merchant-on-the-block.

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Date: Sun, Oct 08, 2000 at 02:37:29 (GMT)
From: Salam
Email: None
To: Salam
Subject: Oh by the way.
Message:
Should we use a male or a female on the DVD? And what about sound? We can also steal some of those marraji music and put it on, keep cost low, you know, we do not want to spend that much. We also need background color, maybe Brian can help with that, if you get my meaning.(background color on this screen).
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Date: Sun, Oct 08, 2000 at 03:27:02 (GMT)
From: G
Email: None
To: Salam
Subject: Oh by the way.
Message:
To do a class act, we should use decent looking models and give people a choice. Maybe not too good looking, unless you want to get into an 'erotic meditation' video line. I wouldn't steal the marraji music, there would be a lawsuit. Besides, there's better music. Could offer differing philosophical add-ons, spiritual, secular, whatever. People could take their pick. I would say for a book, no more than $25, for a video, maybe higher, but $55 is too high. Need to be competitive. Someone mentioned that Rawat has priced himself out of the market. That's true, he doesn't seem to realize how many people offer meditation techniques. I'm a little surprised at the number of web pages there are about meditation.
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Date: Sun, Oct 08, 2000 at 00:15:29 (GMT)
From: Cap'n Dave
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Not much if I'm around
Message:
I already have the resources to pirate these DVDs and make a killing myself. As soon as you start selling something like this, out of the woodwork come the pirates and the wide boys, offering it even cheaper.

Actually I don't think there's anything morally wrong in selling meditation techniques. It's no different to selling any supposed self improvement method. You've got to make a living and if anyone has to spend time on such a business, they can't do it for free. Time is money.

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Date: Sat, Oct 07, 2000 at 11:04:24 (GMT)
From: janet of Venice
Email: None
To: Salam
Subject: Knowledge video
Message:
he's beat you to it. thats exactly what he's made. he tried it out on us in the santa monica civic center on april 25th this year. this is what the new aspirants are going to see in their knowledge sessions. until the next 'experiment', anyway. is this the height of laziness?yaa know--if shri hans wasnt named the successor to his master, then he did what we are speaking of doing: leaving and spreading the knowledge in total defiance of the organization. a number of mahatmas did it and are doing it still. vijayanand started his own school in denver. it was still going on, sincerely when i left in 93.
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Date: Sat, Oct 07, 2000 at 11:25:14 (GMT)
From: Salam
Email: None
To: janet of Venice
Subject: Knowledge video
Message:
I am not starting a new school, I am only singing the glory of the American Way, market competition. Also I want to make a bit of dosh, why should marraji monopolise the market. I think there are plenty of dorks out there that can dish out 55 do-llars for self realiztion. You know like Tie-Bow and the Abb craze.

Hey I am serious now, I am really thinking of doing a web site for that. A bit of QT or real player for the video and sound, online secure order.

(now let me see, call it Kv1. Must have a demo, or shareware version, oh that is easy. Full version 55 do-llars with registration, gives them online help for six months after that charge 20 do-llars an hour, humm sound good. I can have version 2 in a year at let's see, 20 do-llars, not bad. 2000-3000 downloads a year. A good retirement packadge. Ofcourse I can flog some other stuff like books and spritual music....)

Hellooo, this was a charity thing remember.

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Date: Sun, Oct 08, 2000 at 00:18:33 (GMT)
From: Cap'n Dave
Email: None
To: Salam
Subject: Knowledge video
Message:
What's version 2 ???

Will you tell them to stick their thumbs in their ears a different way?

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Date: Sun, Oct 08, 2000 at 01:15:58 (GMT)
From: Salam
Email: None
To: Cap'n Dave
Subject: I am already on V3
Message:
Well look at it this way. It is soso beautifull, because there are people like you who want to pirate other people hardwork. So I have to keep ahead. Plus you have to understand that I am in it for the money ( I mean charity), so if I get 10000 customer and do not do anything about it, it is bad for bussiness, got to milk the bastards. I mean we can bring Jim in it to give a good rap, you know, some crap about how to be carefull when choosing a guru, not that I am saying that Jim talks crap or anything, mind. Roger can talk about tantric yoga, seeing that he is into porno and stuff like that. There are a lot of possibilities.

Any way, I should not really talk to you, you want to steal my hard work.

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Date: Sun, Oct 08, 2000 at 01:23:47 (GMT)
From: Salam
Email: None
To: Salam
Subject: and note this post below
Message:
From one DVD PWK -:- to another; TED -:- Sat, Oct 07, 2000 at 09:34:21

Hi Ted.
Read your post about your experience as a new born DVD premie.
How come the Knowledge you talked about is completely different than the presentation I saw.
Just wondering

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Date: Sat, Oct 07, 2000 at 10:36:10 (GMT)
From: The ultimate
Email: None
To: Salam
Subject: Fraud?
Message:
You call a person a fraud for offering Knowledge for free. (ergo Knowledge must be a fraud)

You want to sell the same thing you claim to be a fraud.

You want to use the income from the sales of what you consider to be a fraud, to fight the person who offers for free what you think is a fraud and what you want to charge money for.

Great logic.

Read the posts of rob areson. They might tell something.

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Date: Sun, Oct 08, 2000 at 00:26:03 (GMT)
From: Cap'n Dave
Email: None
To: The ultimate
Subject: Fraud?
Message:
Maharaji's priced himself out of the market, dear fellow. People don't want to sit through six months of boring videos just to get some meditation techniques. They'd prefer to buy them online with a credit card.

And you know that Maharaji's knowledge isn't really free. You get the bill after receiving them.

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Date: Sat, Oct 07, 2000 at 11:06:40 (GMT)
From: Salam
Email: None
To: The ultimate
Subject: Sue me then.
Message:
Well look at it this way. It's a one off payment for the rest of your life of say 55 do-llars. Better than getting ripped off for the rest of your life. You also get to participate on F5, what a grace. And also the money is going for a cause, a good one too.

Oh by the way your to serious, relax.You must be some fellow from EV to give such a responce. I am only trying to make it easy for people like me l'le mat'e rob to get noolije that is all. Saving a lot of time and money. You know, 1800 US of A do-llars to go to Amorro, 50 for video and stuff like that. You really should learn how to appreciate people and have some gratitude, instead of being bad and nasty to me.

I think I know who you are

(hmmm, now let see if I do a ding then a dong comes up and I get this engines and put some vodka in it, a bit of whois, and yep there it is, Your address is .........)

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Date: Sat, Oct 07, 2000 at 17:40:20 (GMT)
From: Salame
Email: None
To: The ultimate
Subject: Sue me then.
Message:
ok?
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Date: Sat, Oct 07, 2000 at 23:38:08 (GMT)
From: Disculta
Email: None
To: Salame
Subject: Cheaper to pay
Message:
Personally I think it would have been much cheaper to pay for the knowledge session. A few hundred thousand dollars cheaper, for example. (Have you ever added it all up?)

There's a well-known principle in sales which is to give someone something for free so they feel obligated to you for life.

I think it's a lot cleaner to do a straight energy exchange myself.

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Date: Sun, Oct 08, 2000 at 01:55:35 (GMT)
From: G
Email: None
To: Disculta
Subject: Indeed
Message:
I paid about $200 bucks for a TM mantra, I don't even know how much I spent on 'Knowledge'. With the TM mantra, I paid the bucks, so I didn't feel obligated after that.
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Date: Sun, Oct 08, 2000 at 02:31:30 (GMT)
From: Salam
Email: None
To: G
Subject: Indeed
Message:
And am only asking 55 do-llars. What a rippoff?

You want some?

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Date: Sun, Oct 08, 2000 at 05:02:07 (GMT)
From: sam
Email: -
To: Salam
Subject: I paid 150 dollarsfor ihour of live m
Message:
and that was about 10 years ago in Sydney. I think he only got cheaper bacause people didnt want to keep paying this, otherwise he'd still be asking these prices.
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Date: Sat, Oct 07, 2000 at 06:40:26 (GMT)
From: Janet of venice
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: Hilly zeitlin emailed me today...
Message:
he didnt know of ex-p dot org till i explained about it to him. i invited him to come over and talk with us, about his life and journey. he says he was never in mj's entourage, but probably gathered his information thru others. he was an exit counselor to others leaving, for a number of years after leaving. he's a therapist today, and has been one, all these years since.
i told him him he's needed here, that his presence and experience would be deeply appreciated, by many who read the site.
keep an eye out for him. we may have a visitor.
see what happens when you know someone's Name? You can summon them!
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Date: Sat, Oct 07, 2000 at 04:45:44 (GMT)
From: suchabanana
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: da YACHT,SPREAD THE WORD:7.5 million dollar YACHT!
Message:
1. go to: http://www.westportyachtsales.com
2. then click: Yacht Brokerage
3. then click: Featured Vessels
4. then click: Westport Shipyard - 4th on the list: Motor yacht with Pilothouse - 112'
5. view details for year 2000 base model of M.'s 'personal use' yacht, named 'Serenity' (formerly 'Westport One')
(Premo Marine, Inc. - Kathy Gliebe - director/officer, Thousand Oaks, CA).

http://www.corps.state.ri.us/corp_detail1.ASP?CORP_ID=94635&Rn=Premo+Marine+Inc%2E

or see: Who owns what around Prem Rawat page (ex-premie.org)

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Date: Sat, Oct 07, 2000 at 17:26:20 (GMT)
From: What did I miss?
Email: None
To: suchabanana
Subject: Premo Marine inc. wants to sell a yacht
Message:
for 7,5 mill $? What about the profit?
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Date: Sat, Oct 07, 2000 at 17:10:55 (GMT)
From: G
Email: None
To: suchabanana
Subject: da YACHT and other stuff
Message:
See Who Owns What

Are you saying that Maharaji wastes money? His little boat is listed at a measly 106' (it might actually be 108'), not 112', and only cost about $7 million, maybe even less, not 7.5 million. The $7 million estimate is based on a 108' Westship Raised Pilotship, so his boat might cost a lot less, maybe only about $6.5 million. Do you actually think he would waste hundreds of thousands of dollars by getting a bigger yacht than he needs? And look at these much bigger yachts those filthy rich tycoons have, now there's some greedy materialistic bastards for you. He needs this luxury megayacht so he can charge those rich premies lots of money for seminars on it. He's got to get the money from them, and they are not going to be impressed by a little rowboat. How else will he be able to get a bigger yacht, and eventually the biggest yacht in the world? You know he deserves it. Why should some rich tycoon drowning in maya have a bigger yacht than him?

The next thing you'll accuse him of is having a bigger house and a bigger luxury jet than he needs. Without a big garage, where is he going to put all his luxury automobiles? What if one of his kids wants to light a fire in their bedroom? You know how cold it gets in Malibu. Without a private fireplace, they might burn down the house! You wouldn't want that would you? Marble can get chilly, so those marble floors need to be heated. You wouldn't want his lotus feet to get cold would you? If that happened, he might catch a cold and die, so it is of the utmost importance to the future of earth that his marble floors are heated. As to the buying up of lots of land around his house, that's for security reasons. He really should have a bigger and better house than Bill Gates.

Then you'll say that he doesn't really need all those expensive wrist watches. You know, he was only kidding when he said his watch collection is a bad habit, that's just his lila. He uses those watches to be on time for programs, and he needs quality watches so they are accurate and don't break. What if he were a minute late? The reason for the many watches is backup, in case all but one of them suddenly break all at the same time, he can use the one that works. That way, the odds of him not having a working watch are slim.

Then you'll say that his other houses shouldn't be just left vacant while he's not staying in them, which is most of the time. Gosh, it that happened, they might get dirty and messy and filled with premie germs that he might die of. Also, the premies might actually start thinking that they are not infinitely inferior to him. What a better way to remind the Indian ashram premies of their inferiority than to have a mansion on the ashram grounds that they can't use, even though it's usually vacant? Why should he have to share? If he didn't have all these houses around the world, he would have to stay in luxury hotel suites more often, which is very costly, and you know how filthy and germ-ridden they can be. So you see, all these houses are really investments.

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Date: Sat, Oct 07, 2000 at 19:32:02 (GMT)
From: suchabanana
Email: None
To: G
Subject: Customer specified fittings? = adds to Big COSTS!!
Message:
Please note: Yacht price is base price for the new model - without any alterations or requisite modifications. Don't you think m. would want (and insist on) the most luxurious fittings imaginable for his little motorboat? These additions might not appear on the official records.

Check the posting of the person from Rhode Island -- who has actually seen the yacht.

I am not aware that the yacht is for sale now? Who heard this rumor and can substantiate it, or is that just a miscommunication?

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Date: Sun, Oct 08, 2000 at 01:49:23 (GMT)
From: G
Email: None
To: suchabanana
Subject: Customer specified fittings? = adds to Big COSTS!!
Message:
That could very well be true, modifications could cost a substantial amount of money. He spent loads of money on plane modifications. Crown Ltd worked on the yacht and they sound very expensive. They don't give prices and if you have to ask... He would want 'Premium Leathers' or 'Ultraleather' (whatever that is), everything custom made, and lots of gold. Maybe he would deign for solid brass, since that would give some premie the 'opportunity' to spend their valuable time shining it. Hey, that's the ticket, he only bought this yacht to 'give' premies the 'opportunity' to do 'service' by maintaining it.

'Serenity' is registered with the Rhode Island Secretary of State as being 106'. Also see Yacht Projects at Crown Ltd's web site, where 'Westship One' is listed as a 108', not 106', yacht. This was the yacht's name prior to it being renamed to 'Serenity'. I did see jondon's post. Well, whether it's 106', 108', or 112', it's one big ass boat.

Here's a blurb from Crown Ltd:


Welcome to CROWN LTD and our web portfolio. Since 1981 we have been a world leader in the design and fabrication of helm chairs, stools, tables, and pedestal systems for the megayacht industry. We encourage the customization of our product to suit your needs through the selection of options, upholstery, and pedestal heights.

In addition, one of our key strengths is the ability to quickly design new product solutions for difficult problems. Our products are the perfect blend of handcrafted quality, beautiful styling, and luxurious comfort. Our service is the very finest.

Give us a call and discover the possibilities.


Oh, how nice.
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Date: Sun, Oct 08, 2000 at 02:12:16 (GMT)
From: Bin Liner
Email: None
To: G
Subject: Customer specified fittings? = adds to Big COSTS!!
Message:

Have just looked at your link above.

Why is God such a vulgar little prick.

Those chairs look like a cross between things you find in a dental surgery, & the put em together crap at the bottom of my children's cornflake box.

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Date: Sat, Oct 07, 2000 at 12:03:08 (GMT)
From: jondon
Email: None
To: suchabanana
Subject: I have seen this yacht in Newport
Message:
Rhode Island, last summer. It is just what you see in the picture. I spoke with the mate and gleaned as much info. as I could from him re: the boat and the owner. He was very tight lipped about the owner. You know: Loose lips sink ships.
Unfortunately I did not have my camera with me. It did not show up in Newport this summer. If it does I will probably hear about it from premie roommate and friends who believe they are connected to the man via word of mouth through the premie grapevine.

A friend of my premie roommate was invited to visit M aboard the vessel. Apparently she wanted to show him her new baby. I hope she did not leave the baby alone with him for even a couple of minutes. My roommate said that she went there to have M give the baby (who was already one year old) a name. You know, some Indian name meaning something like: Slushie ji, or Beefjerkie ji. Some code name for light or moon or love or life. Some such nonsense.

Will let you know if it shows up here again, and will photograph it.

Later, jondon

Maharaji is a fraud

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Date: Sat, Oct 07, 2000 at 19:52:44 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: jondon
Subject: Actually 'Beefjerkie ji' is a muslim name (nt)
Message:
gggg
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Date: Sat, Oct 07, 2000 at 05:04:51 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: suchabanana
Subject: That can't be his; it's by far the most expensive!
Message:
The culmination of one of the most intensive research and development efforts in the companys history, this spectacular all-new raised pilothouse 112 motoryacht incorporates state-of-the-art composite materials with contemporary styling for todays discerning yachtsman. Her proven performance, legendary reliability, and uncompromising attention to detail is an obvious testament to her Northwest pedigree. The new This vessel features a 24 beam accommodating 4 spacious staterooms + ample crew quarters aft. The reverse transom facilitates water sports while also providing for a larger aft deck and salon. Founded in 1964, Westport has built more large composite hulls than any shipyard in the U.S. In addition to having built most of the yachts marketed by Westports former dealer, Westship, Inc., for the past 20 years Westport has built an extensive line of large composite yachts and commercial vessels under the Westport trademark as well. Presently, Westport is building yachts in the 112 - 131 range, 3 large commercial vessels, numerous hulls for neighboring shipyards, and starting work on its new 128 tri-deck model. Recent expansion of Westports 160,000 sq. ft. state-of-the-art facility accommodates the demand for the larger tri-deck models and continued dedication to their improved 112 Westports.'

So why's he selling it? To buy a few tv's and satellites for his African premies?

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Date: Sat, Oct 07, 2000 at 04:34:43 (GMT)
From: Rob
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: The buck stops here
Message:
I just got caught up with reading 'The Donner Papers', thanks Jim & BB, great work.

It prompted a question about EV's FAQ, but let me put it in a real world context first:

Just suppose Bill Clinton's Press Secretary sent a memo around the White House staff, with Bill's knowledge and approval, stating that he (Bill) had a 12 inch penis. Further, in the ensuing days or weeks, Bill neither denied this statement nor removed his Press Secretary from office. It would be fair to assume that the statement had Bill's tacit approval, would it not and that he more than likely had informed his P.S. of this fact (as it would be unlikely the gentleman had discovered this truth for himself)

OK, now let's suppose that years pass, and Bill's new Press Secretary issues another memo, in a response to questions about the President's ample anatomy, claiming that Bill never said he had such a beast in his pants.

By any definition of the word, he'd be lying, right? We'd be left with the impression that Bill wanted people to believe that at the time, but is now embarrassed by the fact that some of his former staff are claiming he's more prawn than python.

So moving on from penises to perfect masters, let's take a look at one of EV's current FAQ's:

Imaginary Questioner:

Did Maharaji ever say he was God?

Elan Vital:

No, Maharaji never at any time claimed to be God.

Now let's wind the clock back and look at a few statements taken from Mike Donner's letter posted by Jim:


Mike Donner
National Executive Director
DIVINE LIGHT MISSION
NATIONAL HEADQUARTERS
FIVE ELEVEN SIXTEENTH STREET
DENVER, COLORADO 80202
303-623-8280

Guru Maharaj Ji is the Supreme power who is taking care of everything in this world.

Guru Maharaj Ji is our only Lord and by serving Him only, He will take care of all the rest.

I can only serve one Lord, not five. Guru Maharaj Ji is one, not five.

'Why does Guru Maharaj Ji allow such things to happen if He is the Lord?'

As we all know, Guru Maharaj Ji is in complete control of all levels of life.

Now you have to remember that this came from the desk of rawat's National Executive Director, not some bongo hippy stuck with Hindu concepts, as EV would have us believe was the usual source of such nonsense.

If Rawat did not consider himself to be God and did not want other people to think he was God, why did he not immediately fire this clown and issue a retraction?

I guess we all know the answer to that. Any premies have a comment on this? Glen? Linda?

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Date: Sat, Oct 07, 2000 at 04:41:58 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Rob
Subject: You're completely off base
Message:
Oh sorry, I forgot who I was talking to. Sorry about that.

No, Rob, you've hit the nail right on the head.

So now what? I think this God thing should be made a central issue at the next EV elections. Don't you?

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Date: Sat, Oct 07, 2000 at 22:12:26 (GMT)
From: Rob
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Vote for God
Message:
I think it would be a fun, useful thing to dig out as many 'official' documents as we collectively can and extract all messianic references into one damning (right word?) document.

The really sad thing is that the majority of die-hard old timers in premieville, and a good number of the newbies also hold on to this idea of rawat being the lord, much to the embarrassment of the Elan 'we are not a cult' Vital PR team.

Wouldn't it be interesting if we could somehow view all the offerings to ELK Expressions before they were sanitized for public consumption?

Hey premies, how about it? Send us your original poetic masterpieces and we guarantee to publish them in all their unexpurgated glory!! Ivette, Janice, just think how wonderful it would be to express THAT devotion to HIS lotus feet without having your expression watered down by those closet Judases at ELK.

Ex-premies, any feedback from premies you know personally on whether they think he is divine? How do they feel about EV's current denial stance? Do they, like the ones I know, see it as being part of His Divine Lila, the world not ready to receive Him blah, blah, blah?

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Date: Sat, Oct 07, 2000 at 22:58:33 (GMT)
From: Sir Dave
Email: None
To: Rob
Subject: Vote for God
Message:
In my limited exprience of premies in recent years I've found that the people who I've met in the Elan Vital organisation, do not believe he is the Lord but rather the master. They have adjusted their perception to fit the accepted philosophy and current beliefs.

However, the ordinary premies who aren't involved with the organisation still believe he's the Lord of the Universe. They have said so.

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Date: Sun, Oct 08, 2000 at 01:02:25 (GMT)
From: What to think
Email: None
To: Sir Dave
Subject: about the lord of the universe
Message:
I think the only persons I met who believed Maharaji was the lord of the universe, are the ex-premies and Bob Mishler.
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Date: Sun, Oct 08, 2000 at 09:50:21 (GMT)
From: Hal
Email: None
To: What to think
Subject: about the lord of the universe
Message:
Believe me , we sang Arti every day and night for years , on Maha's instruction. Just check out the words to that and stop being so pig headed !

Meditation begins in the form of our master
Concentration begins at the feet of our LORD blah blah....

It's somewhere on the EPO website I'm told...

Come on premie... he did recently say it's about heart and MIND you know !

Hal

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Date: Sun, Oct 08, 2000 at 11:39:42 (GMT)
From: There is a difference
Email: None
To: Hal
Subject: believing / wanting to believe (nt)
Message:
nt
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Date: Sun, Oct 08, 2000 at 03:12:51 (GMT)
From: Rob
Email: None
To: What to think
Subject: May I call you Bjorn?
Message:
In the absence of a given name, I'll use the generic term, OK?

I assume you intended that statement to have some sort of impact? Well unless you can quantify it by telling us what particular community or circle of premies you radiate in, it has as much excitement potential as a failed erection.

Also, are you saying you've met some ex-premies AND Bob Mishler (you do know he's dead, don't you?) Do tell, who are the lucky ex's to have made your acquaintance?

What did you make of Mike Donner's statement? Remember now, he was about as high up in the organization as one could get. Did you ever sing arti? If so, did you mean it, or did you secretly cross your fingers behind your back when you recited 'You are my all, my Lord, to me etc etc.'?

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Date: Tues, Oct 10, 2000 at 11:30:39 (GMT)
From: Bjørn the observant
Email: None
To: Rob
Subject: re arti
Message:
I think it is a myth that arti was sung every morning in the ashram. In my memory it happened in weekends.
I sung, I suppose the same way people sing in a church. Do you cross your finger when you sing christmas songs? The words are vast, the belief is smaller.
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Date: Tues, Oct 10, 2000 at 12:58:42 (GMT)
From: Hal
Email: None
To: Bjørn the observant
Subject: I assure you Bjorn
Message:
Scouts honour , honest to God , that Arti was sung in all UK ashrams , morning and night on Maharaji's request and after every evening satsang, right up until '82 at least.

This is verifiable information.

You are my mother and you are my father..... was the first little part consisting of a few verses of sickly sentiment and ending with you are my all my Lord to me..

It then starts again with a new tune and Jai guru dev Maharaji

Your glory fills the world....protector of the weary and the weak....Save us from the ocean deep....blah ..blah...

Why do you deny everything said here on this website so pig headedly?

Hal ( I lived an ashram lifestyle for 4 yrs)

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Date: Tues, Oct 10, 2000 at 13:24:25 (GMT)
From: Bjørn the observant
Email: None
To: Hal
Subject: I dont doubt you hal
Message:
Hal
I lived in ashrams in sweden, norway, US, India and Denmark. Not everywere Arti was sung regulary. I would be rather impractical due to different job situations. My wife lived in Asram in Finland - same story there.

I dont know about England.

If this was an commandment or not I dont know, but I think people enjoyed it.

I dont deny everything pig headedly?
I just dont think things are black or white. I see shades of grey everywhere.

I lived in ashrams for 3 years, but funny enough I never moved in. The ashram moved into my appartement,

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Date: Tues, Oct 10, 2000 at 10:20:55 (GMT)
From: Bjørn the observant
Email: None
To: Rob
Subject: May I call you Bjorn?
Message:
Re your questions: I never knew Michel Donner. As far as I know he was the head of the US DLM. I suppose he believed what he wrote. I did not read it all, but the picture I got, this was partly cowritten by Jagdeo.

Yes, I knew Bob Mishler. He introduced me to the idea of M being the Lord of the Universe. In a kind of sophisticated way. I never really believed his envision of a megagigantic computer, knowing all - in control of everything. This was in 1972.

By the way I once lived in the ashram in 1560 race street in denver. There I met a guy Rob. One evening after bed time Charles Cameron, a girl called Kathy, (not the one here) a guy from Peru (i cant remember his name - he became a instructor and died of Aids), me and a couple of other premies were laughing in one room. So when we went to bed, this guy Rob, (I dont think it is you,) came behing me and knocked me down. He was kicked out of the ashram afterwards i was told.

I suppose Rob would be an ex-premie today.

By the way, I never got your email from FA

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Date: Sun, Oct 08, 2000 at 01:35:57 (GMT)
From: Bin Liner
Email: None
To: What to think
Subject: about the lord of the universe
Message:

So who did you think he was.

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Date: Tues, Oct 10, 2000 at 11:07:14 (GMT)
From: Bjørn the observant
Email: None
To: Bin Liner
Subject: about the lord of the universe
Message:
I was open and tried to find out. He never told me to believe in the lord of the Universe' He told to belive in what you see. I tried to do that.
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Date: Tues, Oct 10, 2000 at 19:54:15 (GMT)
From: Bin Liner
Email: None
To: Bjørn the observant
Subject: about the lord of the universe
Message:

You aren't sufficiently observant to answer the question,which was , 'Who do you think he is' ?

What you believe you see is your affair.

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