Forum V: Archive
Compiled: Tues, Nov 21, 2000 at 14:48:02 (GMT)
From: Nov 07, 2000 To: Nov 18, 2000 Page: 2 Of: 5


Nigel -:- Aussie exes - wanna meet pommie bastard? (OT) -:- Mon, Nov 13, 2000 at 22:41:15 (GMT)
__ gerry -:- usethay ethay odecay, upestay! -:- Tues, Nov 14, 2000 at 00:20:27 (GMT)
__ __ Stonor -:- usethay ethay odecay, upestay! -:- Tues, Nov 14, 2000 at 03:29:43 (GMT)
__ __ __ Zelda -:- usethay ethay odecay, upestay! -:- Wed, Nov 15, 2000 at 08:56:04 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Stonor -:- Hey eldazay! Great you see you! -:- Wed, Nov 15, 2000 at 15:00:12 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Salam -:- Hey eldazay! Great you see you! -:- Thurs, Nov 16, 2000 at 02:47:06 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Stonor -:- LOL alamsay, but Pig Latin isn't typos! -:- Thurs, Nov 16, 2000 at 03:03:50 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Stonor -:- (supposed to be 'cookies', not 'cockies' (nt) -:- Thurs, Nov 16, 2000 at 04:38:21 (GMT)

Jean-Michel -:- Did Rawat really got a brand new G V -:- Mon, Nov 13, 2000 at 14:10:55 (GMT)
__ Blue Max -:- Did Rawat really got a brand new G V -:- Mon, Nov 13, 2000 at 15:51:50 (GMT)
__ __ Jean-Michel -:- Did Rawat really got a brand new G V -:- Mon, Nov 13, 2000 at 16:06:36 (GMT)
__ __ __ Blue Max -:- Did Rawat really got a brand new G V -:- Mon, Nov 13, 2000 at 17:09:43 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Jean-Michel -:- No, no -:- Mon, Nov 13, 2000 at 17:21:43 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Blue Max -:- No idea.. -:- Mon, Nov 13, 2000 at 18:04:22 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Red Baron -:- How much just to hangar a jet these days? (nt) -:- Tues, Nov 14, 2000 at 19:59:41 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Blue Max -:- How much just to hangar a jet these days? (nt) -:- Wed, Nov 15, 2000 at 13:57:48 (GMT)
__ __ __ G -:- Wouldn't surprise me, looks like he sold the G IV -:- Mon, Nov 13, 2000 at 16:39:00 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Ms Onae, Wahadamar, Seva -:- Wouldn't surprise me, looks like he sold the G IV -:- Mon, Nov 13, 2000 at 17:30:44 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ janet -:- Wahadamar-it dont take a rocket scientist... -:- Tues, Nov 14, 2000 at 08:21:20 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ G -:- I can provide a list of G Vs -:- Mon, Nov 13, 2000 at 19:26:02 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Jean-Michel -:- Great, not so hard to find IF -:- Tues, Nov 14, 2000 at 08:17:25 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Blue Max -:- SP -:- Mon, Nov 13, 2000 at 18:08:56 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Who the hell does he -:- think he is...GOD??? (NT) (Cynthia) -:- Mon, Nov 13, 2000 at 19:44:21 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ cq -:- That was the premies' job ... -:- Tues, Nov 14, 2000 at 20:07:07 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Steve Quint -:- get the money? -:- Mon, Nov 13, 2000 at 21:34:57 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ PHD -:- get the money? -:- Tues, Nov 14, 2000 at 08:47:14 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Steve Quint -:- Piled High And Deep? -:- Tues, Nov 14, 2000 at 15:51:08 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Disculta -:- From Alvaro? + mini-question to MD -:- Mon, Nov 13, 2000 at 23:42:00 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ PHD -:- From Alvaro? + mini-question to MD -:- Tues, Nov 14, 2000 at 08:52:56 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Blue Max -:- get the money? -:- Mon, Nov 13, 2000 at 23:40:13 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Cynthia -:- Blue Max, that was funny::::))))^^^^^LOLOL (NT) -:- Tues, Nov 14, 2000 at 00:19:15 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Ms Onae, WaHaDaMar, SEVA -:- Randy Prouty's Latest Investment Web Site -:- Tues, Nov 14, 2000 at 15:20:24 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Tim Miller -:- Is he still a PAM? nt -:- Thurs, Nov 16, 2000 at 10:01:51 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Ms Onae -:- Is he still a PAM? Not sure! -:- Thurs, Nov 16, 2000 at 17:16:47 (GMT)

Michael Dettmers -:- My response to your question -:- Mon, Nov 13, 2000 at 01:15:59 (GMT)
__ Sanford Pass -:- Hi Michael...more questions to answer please.... -:- Thurs, Nov 16, 2000 at 18:04:28 (GMT)
__ __ cq -:- Poor, sweet, deluded fools that we were ... -:- Thurs, Nov 16, 2000 at 18:55:06 (GMT)
__ __ __ shp -:- And fools rush in...da da da da da da -:- Thurs, Nov 16, 2000 at 21:29:16 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Stonor -:- A tad 'judgemental', no? -:- Thurs, Nov 16, 2000 at 22:25:24 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ shp -:- Please forgive me, I am still under construction. -:- Fri, Nov 17, 2000 at 01:28:34 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Stonor -:- Please forgive me, I am still under construction. -:- Fri, Nov 17, 2000 at 04:08:12 (GMT)
__ Steve Quint -:- By The Way -:- Wed, Nov 15, 2000 at 06:20:55 (GMT)
__ suchabanana -:- those darn financial details, and Paradise Lost -:- Mon, Nov 13, 2000 at 21:07:08 (GMT)
__ __ Marianne -:- Detroit ashram -:- Mon, Nov 13, 2000 at 22:09:13 (GMT)
__ __ __ Marianne -:- PS to suchabanana -:- Tues, Nov 14, 2000 at 16:23:49 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ suchabanana -:- Detroit/Soupy Sales trad led to m. party pie rite -:- Wed, Nov 15, 2000 at 05:03:58 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Marianne -:- Trip down memory lane -:- Wed, Nov 15, 2000 at 16:17:36 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ such -:- can u scan poster + pie photo, email to post here? -:- Wed, Nov 15, 2000 at 20:33:59 (GMT)
__ Steve Quint -:- My response to your question -:- Mon, Nov 13, 2000 at 18:18:23 (GMT)
__ __ JohnT -:- Hear! Hear! -:- Mon, Nov 13, 2000 at 19:14:28 (GMT)
__ __ Michael Dettmers -:- My response to your question -:- Mon, Nov 13, 2000 at 19:05:07 (GMT)
__ __ __ JTF -:- You could just explain to current clients...... -:- Tues, Nov 14, 2000 at 05:15:05 (GMT)
__ __ __ Steve Quint -:- My response to your question -:- Mon, Nov 13, 2000 at 21:28:42 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ DV -:- Grow up, Quint. -:- Tues, Nov 14, 2000 at 01:06:43 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Steve Quint -:- Fulfill Your Promises, DV -:- Tues, Nov 14, 2000 at 02:17:38 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ DV -:- Explain yourself, -:- Wed, Nov 15, 2000 at 00:57:39 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Steve Quint -:- It's Impossible To Explain Anything To An Idiot -:- Wed, Nov 15, 2000 at 05:44:14 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Brian -:- Be serious -:- Mon, Nov 13, 2000 at 22:33:50 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ cq -:- er, excuse me? -:- Tues, Nov 14, 2000 at 18:35:54 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Brian -:- er, excuse me? -:- Tues, Nov 14, 2000 at 21:20:26 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ cq -:- er, excuse me? -:- Wed, Nov 15, 2000 at 18:40:41 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ JohnT -:- How about ... -:- Wed, Nov 15, 2000 at 09:39:14 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ a0aji -:- Godwin Limit proximity alert -:- Tues, Nov 14, 2000 at 22:58:37 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Daneane -:- Be serious -:- Tues, Nov 14, 2000 at 06:13:27 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ bill -:- Brian -:- Tues, Nov 14, 2000 at 04:16:58 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Brian -:- What's your email address? -:- Tues, Nov 14, 2000 at 14:24:41 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ bill -:- sure..nt -:- Wed, Nov 15, 2000 at 04:23:24 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Steve Quint -:- Have you become so twisted? -:- Mon, Nov 13, 2000 at 23:15:48 (GMT)
__ __ __ cq -:- questions raise questions - legal questions ... -:- Mon, Nov 13, 2000 at 21:23:05 (GMT)
__ gerry -:- something's hinky with you dettmers... -:- Mon, Nov 13, 2000 at 01:30:00 (GMT)
__ __ Rick -:- something's hinky with you dettmers... -:- Mon, Nov 13, 2000 at 16:16:42 (GMT)
__ __ __ gErRy -:- I knew I should have finished my university degree -:- Mon, Nov 13, 2000 at 16:37:18 (GMT)
__ __ AJW -:- something's hinky with you gerry... -:- Mon, Nov 13, 2000 at 13:23:38 (GMT)
__ __ __ gerry -:- Well we all know THAT, Anth -:- Mon, Nov 13, 2000 at 15:35:43 (GMT)
__ __ Sir Dave -:- My life of crime in Divine Sales -:- Mon, Nov 13, 2000 at 12:09:53 (GMT)
__ __ __ Tim Miller -:- Me too! But just once -:- Thurs, Nov 16, 2000 at 03:52:14 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Sir Dave -:- I was there -:- Thurs, Nov 16, 2000 at 12:42:46 (GMT)
__ __ __ JTF -:- My life of crime in Divine Sales -:- Tues, Nov 14, 2000 at 05:25:51 (GMT)
__ __ Patrick -:- How about some credit where credit's due Gerry? -:- Mon, Nov 13, 2000 at 11:34:19 (GMT)
__ __ __ gerry -:- OK Patrick, but... -:- Mon, Nov 13, 2000 at 14:48:28 (GMT)
__ __ __ Jean-Michel -:- What's illegal has always been done by individuals -:- Mon, Nov 13, 2000 at 14:48:01 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Hal -:- What's illegal has always been done by individuals -:- Mon, Nov 13, 2000 at 15:12:36 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Happy -:- What's illegal has always been done by individuals -:- Mon, Nov 13, 2000 at 17:37:11 (GMT)
__ __ Stonor -:- something's hinky with you dettmers... -:- Mon, Nov 13, 2000 at 05:02:44 (GMT)
__ __ __ Cynthia -:- If I had a non-disclosure agreement... -:- Mon, Nov 13, 2000 at 15:44:03 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Disculta -:- Hinky winky? -:- Mon, Nov 13, 2000 at 18:54:39 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ gerry -:- guess you haven't been around very long -:- Mon, Nov 13, 2000 at 19:35:18 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ gerry -:- OK maybe I' m just jealous -:- Mon, Nov 13, 2000 at 23:42:51 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Cynthia -:- Gerry, I' m just jealous too::o)) -:- Tues, Nov 14, 2000 at 00:16:42 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ cq -:- Golden parachute: - is that as useful as ... -:- Tues, Nov 14, 2000 at 20:15:37 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Selene -:- what strikes me as weird -:- Mon, Nov 13, 2000 at 19:49:31 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ gerry -:- what strikes me as weird -:- Mon, Nov 13, 2000 at 19:54:35 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Lotus Eater -:- The smell of evasion -:- Mon, Nov 13, 2000 at 20:31:38 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Selene -:- good tangent LE -:- Mon, Nov 13, 2000 at 20:36:35 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Selene -:- hi gerry, it doesn't really piss me off -:- Mon, Nov 13, 2000 at 20:21:40 (GMT)

maxwell smart -:- do you think the guru stole my schtik? -:- Mon, Nov 13, 2000 at 01:09:32 (GMT)
__ The Chief -:- Wait for the 'Cone of Silence' you fool! (nt) -:- Mon, Nov 13, 2000 at 03:01:14 (GMT)

la-ex -:- Michael Dettmers-what's your personal opinion on? -:- Mon, Nov 13, 2000 at 00:50:46 (GMT)
__ shp -:- Michael Dettmers-what's your personal opinion on? -:- Thurs, Nov 16, 2000 at 20:25:20 (GMT)
__ __ shp -:- foul up at end of my last post / correction -:- Thurs, Nov 16, 2000 at 21:45:32 (GMT)
__ Marianne -:- Spot on, la-ex -:- Mon, Nov 13, 2000 at 01:15:56 (GMT)

Rick -:- OT - Florida Orders Countywide Recount -:- Sun, Nov 12, 2000 at 17:19:57 (GMT)
__ Scott T. -:- OT - No fig leaf for the FL Secretary of State -:- Tues, Nov 14, 2000 at 18:42:59 (GMT)
__ __ Sir Dave -:- OT - No fig leaf for the FL Secretary of State -:- Wed, Nov 15, 2000 at 00:33:49 (GMT)
__ __ __ Scott T. -:- OT - No fig leaf for the FL Secretary of State -:- Wed, Nov 15, 2000 at 02:00:11 (GMT)
__ Sir Dave -:- What I find surprising -:- Tues, Nov 14, 2000 at 00:27:11 (GMT)
__ __ Scott T. -:- What I find surprising -:- Tues, Nov 14, 2000 at 02:51:41 (GMT)
__ __ Rick -:- What I find surprising -:- Tues, Nov 14, 2000 at 01:51:47 (GMT)
__ a0aji -:- Harris says deadline will not be extended -:- Mon, Nov 13, 2000 at 14:14:02 (GMT)
__ G -:- Jeb's Sec o State says she'll throw out late votes -:- Mon, Nov 13, 2000 at 02:39:25 (GMT)
__ __ G -:- Massive Miami voter fraud ??? -:- Mon, Nov 13, 2000 at 05:59:51 (GMT)
__ Sir Dave -:- OT - Florida Orders Countywide Recount -:- Mon, Nov 13, 2000 at 00:09:09 (GMT)
__ __ Stonor -:- That depends ... -:- Mon, Nov 13, 2000 at 03:20:31 (GMT)
__ __ Jerry -:- Put on your glasses -:- Mon, Nov 13, 2000 at 00:47:32 (GMT)
__ __ __ Sir Dave -:- Put on your glasses -:- Mon, Nov 13, 2000 at 01:12:17 (GMT)
__ Scott T. -:- OT - Florida Orders Countywide Recount -:- Sun, Nov 12, 2000 at 18:28:34 (GMT)
__ __ Scott T. -:- OT - Margin of Error and the Basic Problem -:- Sun, Nov 12, 2000 at 18:46:01 (GMT)
__ __ __ Rick -:- OT - Margin of Error and the Basic Problem -:- Mon, Nov 13, 2000 at 21:19:14 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Scott T. -:- OT - Jackson's Revenge -:- Mon, Nov 13, 2000 at 21:49:54 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Rick -:- OT - Jackson's Revenge -:- Tues, Nov 14, 2000 at 01:34:14 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Scott T. -:- OT - Jackson's Revenge -:- Tues, Nov 14, 2000 at 03:10:27 (GMT)
__ __ __ G -:- the dilemma -:- Sun, Nov 12, 2000 at 22:43:38 (GMT)
__ __ __ gerry -:- The Ultimate Conspiracy -:- Sun, Nov 12, 2000 at 19:25:12 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Katie -:- The REAL Conspiracy -:- Mon, Nov 13, 2000 at 13:04:36 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Scott T. -:- The REAL Conspiracy -:- Mon, Nov 13, 2000 at 14:45:09 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Katie -:- The REAL Conspiracy -:- Mon, Nov 13, 2000 at 18:14:32 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Scott T. -:- The REAL Real Conspiracy -:- Mon, Nov 13, 2000 at 20:26:57 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Jerry -:- Did you see Gore? -:- Mon, Nov 13, 2000 at 21:54:46 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Scott T. -:- Did you see Gore? -:- Mon, Nov 13, 2000 at 23:52:34 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Jerry -:- Did you see Gore? -:- Tues, Nov 14, 2000 at 00:48:18 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Scott T. -:- Did you see Gore? -:- Tues, Nov 14, 2000 at 03:28:42 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Jerry -:- Rules are rules -:- Tues, Nov 14, 2000 at 05:18:54 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Scott T. -:- Rules are rules -:- Tues, Nov 14, 2000 at 15:40:43 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Rick -:- Rules are rules -:- Tues, Nov 14, 2000 at 22:14:04 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Scott T. -:- Rules are rules -:- Wed, Nov 15, 2000 at 02:42:26 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Jerry -:- Rules are rules -:- Tues, Nov 14, 2000 at 18:58:10 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Scott T. -:- Rules are rules -:- Tues, Nov 14, 2000 at 20:04:59 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Jerry -:- Rules are rules -:- Wed, Nov 15, 2000 at 00:39:25 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Scott T. -:- Rules are rules -:- Wed, Nov 15, 2000 at 03:24:06 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Jerry -:- Bottom line -:- Wed, Nov 15, 2000 at 05:33:44 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Scott T. -:- Bottom line -:- Wed, Nov 15, 2000 at 15:28:30 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ a0aji -:- One Hundred Percent Accuracy Methods Attainable! -:- Tues, Nov 14, 2000 at 23:25:23 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Scott T. -:- One Hundred Percent Accuracy Methods Attainable! -:- Wed, Nov 15, 2000 at 03:33:26 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ G -:- Bush signed a Texas bill favoring hand counts -:- Tues, Nov 14, 2000 at 21:27:39 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Scott T. -:- Bush signed a Texas bill favoring hand counts -:- Wed, Nov 15, 2000 at 03:37:15 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Joy -:- The Ultimate Conspiracy -:- Mon, Nov 13, 2000 at 00:48:07 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Sir Dave -:- A message to Joy -:- Mon, Nov 13, 2000 at 01:09:48 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Scott T. -:- The Ultimate Conspiracy -:- Sun, Nov 12, 2000 at 23:36:07 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ gerry -:- Did he inhale ? -:- Sun, Nov 12, 2000 at 23:57:23 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Marianne -:- Beam us up, Scotty! -:- Mon, Nov 13, 2000 at 02:04:49 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Scott T. -:- Beam us up, Scotty! -:- Mon, Nov 13, 2000 at 11:23:17 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ gerry -:- Beam us up, Scotty! -:- Mon, Nov 13, 2000 at 02:11:53 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Tim G -:- Dolly's Dilemma -:- Sun, Nov 12, 2000 at 21:11:53 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ a -:- the stiffneck -:- Sun, Nov 12, 2000 at 22:49:30 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ G -:- a is G (nt) -:- Sun, Nov 12, 2000 at 22:50:56 (GMT)


Date: Mon, Nov 13, 2000 at 22:41:15 (GMT)
From: Nigel
Email: fitzroy@liverpool.ac.uk
To: Everyone
Subject: Aussie exes - wanna meet pommie bastard? (OT)
Message:
I'm going to be spending most of December in Australia (Sydney). If any of the gang out there fancy a meet-up, would you email me please?
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Date: Tues, Nov 14, 2000 at 00:20:27 (GMT)
From: gerry
Email: None
To: Nigel
Subject: usethay ethay odecay, upestay!
Message:
Igelnay, uoyay ouldcay ebay illedkay ybay emiepray onspiratorscay. On'tday elltay emthay enwhay uoyay areay omingcay:easeplay ebay arefulcay...
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Date: Tues, Nov 14, 2000 at 03:29:43 (GMT)
From: Stonor
Email: None
To: gerry
Subject: usethay ethay odecay, upestay!
Message:
Shit! I knew I should have spent more time on my Pig-Latin studies when I was in high school!
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Date: Wed, Nov 15, 2000 at 08:56:04 (GMT)
From: Zelda
Email: None
To: Stonor
Subject: usethay ethay odecay, upestay!
Message:
dont fret stonor, jerry is telling nigel that the starbucks in the international terminial is NOT the meeting place.
Instead, they will meet at macdonalds.
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Date: Wed, Nov 15, 2000 at 15:00:12 (GMT)
From: Stonor
Email: None
To: Zelda
Subject: Hey eldazay! Great you see you!
Message:
Hope all is well and getting better! (tiay siay errygay, otnay errjay) (Did I finally remember?)

igbay ugshay!

tonorsay

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Date: Thurs, Nov 16, 2000 at 02:47:06 (GMT)
From: Salam
Email: None
To: Stonor
Subject: Hey eldazay! Great you see you!
Message:
Cocky cookie cook cock
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Date: Thurs, Nov 16, 2000 at 03:03:50 (GMT)
From: Stonor
Email: None
To: Salam
Subject: LOL alamsay, but Pig Latin isn't typos!
Message:
Yes, I remember that wonderful typo of yours ... something about someone's kock-a-doodle cockies or something roosterish rather than chickenish (no, those aren't languages either).

ugshay,

tonorsay

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Date: Thurs, Nov 16, 2000 at 04:38:21 (GMT)
From: Stonor
Email: None
To: Salam
Subject: (supposed to be 'cookies', not 'cockies' (nt)
Message:
damn typos!!!
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Date: Mon, Nov 13, 2000 at 14:10:55 (GMT)
From: Jean-Michel
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: Did Rawat really got a brand new G V
Message:
worth more than $ 40 million ?

I can't believe this !!!!!

Yoram ? Details ? ....

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Date: Mon, Nov 13, 2000 at 15:51:50 (GMT)
From: Blue Max
Email: None
To: Jean-Michel
Subject: Did Rawat really got a brand new G V
Message:
Jean-Michel,

I believe he got a type rating on the G5. He probably did a lease
purchase on the upgrade or some other financial arrangement so that a full purchase was not necessary.

Type ratings for the G5 are done at Flight Safety International
in Savanna. They are in the $20,000 range. I'll be doing my turbine training there. Aviation is a hole you pour money into!

Training is everything.

Blue Max

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Date: Mon, Nov 13, 2000 at 16:06:36 (GMT)
From: Jean-Michel
Email: None
To: Blue Max
Subject: Did Rawat really got a brand new G V
Message:
Can you try to find some info on Rawat's new jet in some aviation database ?
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Date: Mon, Nov 13, 2000 at 17:09:43 (GMT)
From: Blue Max
Email: None
To: Jean-Michel
Subject: Did Rawat really got a brand new G V
Message:
Jean-Michel,

A good overview is available at www.airbroker.se/jets/g5.htm

The G5 is at the top of the foodchain for corporate aviation. To me, it's really not necessary to own one of these since there are custom charter arrangements that can handle any sitrep. I imagine that Maharaji could have an arrangement like this, though I have no way of knowing for sure.

Blue Max

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Date: Mon, Nov 13, 2000 at 17:21:43 (GMT)
From: Jean-Michel
Email: None
To: Blue Max
Subject: No, no
Message:
If the deal has been made like it's been done in the past, he's sold the G IV, used the cash as downpayment for the new one, and got a lease for the rest.

Of course nobody will know if he didn't keep some of the money for some 'other purpose' ....

He's into OWNING jets !!

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Date: Mon, Nov 13, 2000 at 18:04:22 (GMT)
From: Blue Max
Email: None
To: Jean-Michel
Subject: No idea..
Message:
Jean-Michel,

Well, that's what I mean by 'lease-purchase'. What he ultimately
does, I have no idea. It just doesn't make sense to me to own one if all you're going to do is to FLY it.

If ownership is that important to him, well...sing loi

Blue Max

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Date: Tues, Nov 14, 2000 at 19:59:41 (GMT)
From: Red Baron
Email: None
To: Blue Max
Subject: How much just to hangar a jet these days? (nt)
Message:
squillion a month?
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Date: Wed, Nov 15, 2000 at 13:57:48 (GMT)
From: Blue Max
Email: None
To: Red Baron
Subject: How much just to hangar a jet these days? (nt)
Message:
Red Baron,

Cool name!

It can range anywhere from $1000 to $10,000 per month depending on amenities.(or more..)

Blue Max

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Date: Mon, Nov 13, 2000 at 16:39:00 (GMT)
From: G
Email: None
To: Jean-Michel
Subject: Wouldn't surprise me, looks like he sold the G IV
Message:
It looks like the G IV is now owned by OMG Jett Inc, which is related to OMG, a chemical company.

I base that on the old N-number not showing up anymore in the FAA database, and a G IV with the same serial number showing up with a new N-number and being owned by OMG Jett Inc. It looks like the sale happened recently. I can supply more details.

The tricky part is what to search on.

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Date: Mon, Nov 13, 2000 at 17:30:44 (GMT)
From: Ms Onae, Wahadamar, Seva
Email: None
To: G
Subject: Wouldn't surprise me, looks like he sold the G IV
Message:
G,

I'm sure Rawat's attornies have made this one harder to find. Apparently the spoilt little man has learned from F5.

At any rate the Aircraft Model for the G-V is: 3980116

However, there is now a new G-V with the SP suffix.

I just read an article that fewer than 1,000 individuals could afford the G-V at it's exhorbitant rate. My guess is Alvaro Pascotto, the Registered Agent for Wahadamar Inc, and Aviation Legal Expert offered his services to the Lotus feet.

At any rate... should we really be surprised at this news? Can't you imagine Rawat going bonkers coveting the G-V and not letting up until he got what he wanted?

Ms Onae!

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Date: Tues, Nov 14, 2000 at 08:21:20 (GMT)
From: janet
Email: None
To: the gang
Subject: Wahadamar-it dont take a rocket scientist...
Message:
to play games with that name and realize its composed of the names of his kids in chronological order:

WAdi
HAnsi
DAya
AMAR....

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Date: Mon, Nov 13, 2000 at 19:26:02 (GMT)
From: G
Email: None
To: Ms Onae, Wahadamar, Seva
Subject: I can provide a list of G Vs
Message:
I can provide a list of G Vs if anyone is interested. This would include some detailed info like company name. But if he has some type of lease arrangement, it would be very hard to track down.
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Date: Tues, Nov 14, 2000 at 08:17:25 (GMT)
From: Jean-Michel
Email: None
To: G
Subject: Great, not so hard to find IF
Message:
There are not that many G V that have been sold in the past months, and most companies won't have to be checked, like Coca-Cola, the Pope and Bill Gates .....

Plus we know some names ....

IF the G V is a US jet ....

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Date: Mon, Nov 13, 2000 at 18:08:56 (GMT)
From: Blue Max
Email: None
To: Ms Onae, Wahadamar, Seva
Subject: SP
Message:
'SP' means Special Performance. It's an upgrade to the avionics
suite, IFR fuel reserve capability, and assorted safety and comfort issues.

It would be like flying a mansion..

Blue Max

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Date: Mon, Nov 13, 2000 at 19:44:21 (GMT)
From: Who the hell does he
Email: None
To: Blue Max
Subject: think he is...GOD??? (NT) (Cynthia)
Message:
nn
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Date: Tues, Nov 14, 2000 at 20:07:07 (GMT)
From: cq
Email: None
To: Who the hell does he
Subject: That was the premies' job ...
Message:
... and that's how he got others to pay for it.

Maha=great
Raj=king
???= of beggars

In the end, Mr Prem Pal 'Spare Change?' Rawat will be so sick of knowing that money can't buy happiness, he'll be forced to try meditating!

(What else is keeping him from practising it?)

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Date: Mon, Nov 13, 2000 at 21:34:57 (GMT)
From: Steve Quint
Email: the_avenger55@hotmail.com
To: Where the hell does he
Subject: get the money?
Message:
Just wondering.

Steve

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Date: Tues, Nov 14, 2000 at 08:47:14 (GMT)
From: PHD
Email: None
To: Steve Quint
Subject: get the money?
Message:
Steve,
Most time I find your contribution of little value. I thought you said you were going to leave this site. Please stick to your word infuture. Where do you think the money comes from? It is obvious!
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Date: Tues, Nov 14, 2000 at 15:51:08 (GMT)
From: Steve Quint
Email: the_avenger55@hotmail.com
To: PHD
Subject: Piled High And Deep?
Message:
Is your monicker an indication of a degree that you have either in 'reality' or in your imagination?

If so, was it purchased or rented?

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Date: Mon, Nov 13, 2000 at 23:42:00 (GMT)
From: Disculta
Email: None
To: Steve Quint
Subject: From Alvaro? + mini-question to MD
Message:
Is Alvaro still around? He must be a multi-billionaire.

It IS interesting, where he gets all the money, considering that membership is low, etc. etc. Is it just a few rich premies? Does anyone know? Do you know Michael?

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Date: Tues, Nov 14, 2000 at 08:52:56 (GMT)
From: PHD
Email: None
To: Disculta
Subject: From Alvaro? + mini-question to MD
Message:
Alvaro has his own practice in LA and contributes his services to GM free of charge. Alvaro is a difficult person to deal with infact is a right prick. One day some one will return all the unpleasant favours he has dished out.
PHD
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Date: Mon, Nov 13, 2000 at 23:40:13 (GMT)
From: Blue Max
Email: None
To: Steve Quint
Subject: get the money?
Message:
Steve,

Well, I guess he's a 'successful investor'. Sounds about as truthful as a 'successful recount of the ballots by sunlight'!

Blue Max

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Date: Tues, Nov 14, 2000 at 00:19:15 (GMT)
From: Cynthia
Email: None
To: Blue Max
Subject: Blue Max, that was funny::::))))^^^^^LOLOL (NT)
Message:
nt
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Date: Tues, Nov 14, 2000 at 15:20:24 (GMT)
From: Ms Onae, WaHaDaMar, SEVA
Email: None
To: ALL
Subject: Randy Prouty's Latest Investment Web Site
Message:
Here's Randy's latest web site:

http://www.worldassoc.net/

I wonder if instead of Arti Randy now hums... 'I'm your private jester (oops meant investor) I'll do what you want me to do...'

Or whatever that Tina Turner song is.

Ms Onae

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Date: Thurs, Nov 16, 2000 at 10:01:51 (GMT)
From: Tim Miller
Email: None
To: Ms Onae, WaHaDaMar, SEVA
Subject: Is he still a PAM? nt
Message:
nt
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Date: Thurs, Nov 16, 2000 at 17:16:47 (GMT)
From: Ms Onae
Email: None
To: Tim Miller
Subject: Is he still a PAM? Not sure!
Message:
Tim,

I think so. Can't say for certain. He's moved to Malibu.

Maybe someone else knows.

Ms. O

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Date: Mon, Nov 13, 2000 at 01:15:59 (GMT)
From: Michael Dettmers
Email: dettmers@gylanix.com
To: Suchabannana
Subject: My response to your question
Message:
Suchabannana,

You, and others, have been persistent in your efforts to get me to provide inside information on Maharaji’s financial affairs. As you are aware, the non-disclosure clause in my agreement prevents me from providing the detailed financial information you desire.

Notwithstanding my difficulty in this regard, I am comfortable with the information I have provided to date for two reasons. First, I have only commented on those organizational and financial matters that I had previously addressed many times with DLM/EV organizers at meetings all over the world. Hence, the information I provided is not confidential. Second, I felt compelled, and I have a right, to defend myself regarding certain speculations and allegations that were made about my past involvement with Maharaji on this and other websites.

Let me re-cap what I have said so far on this Forum:

1. Under my watch, nothing illegal was ever done regarding the administration and handling of Maharaji’s financial affairs.

2. I discussed the issues and concerns surrounding the IRS audit of DLM in 1977 and how they were addressed and resolved to the IRS’s complete satisfaction. I also discussed how the resolution of those issues formed the basis for the management and organization of Maharaji’s financial affairs going forward.

3. I explained the purpose and functioning of the Élan Vital Foundation in Switzerland and cq’s recent post of his response from the UK Charity Commissioners confirms what I explained on that topic.

4. I discussed DECA and the Boeing 707 project in some detail.

5. I confirmed that Maharaji secured an interest in several premie-owned businesses, which provided him with taxable income.

6. I confirmed that Maharaji, as a US citizen and resident, always paid whatever taxes he owed.

7. I disclosed that Maharaji was subsequently audited on two other occasions, again with the IRS declaring their complete satisfaction with the tax returns he filed.

I have not provided information about the specific structuring and financing of Maharaji’s asset holdings. However, most of my information about these matters is out of date. Many of the assets in question have been acquired since I left my position with Maharaji. For instance, the Malibu property has been completely renovated. The used Canadair Challenger was replaced with a new one, which was, in turn, replaced with a new Gulfstream IV jet. The current rumor is that he has just replaced it with a new $40M+ Gulfstream V aircraft. I know nothing about the acquisition, financing and structuring of these assets, nor do I know anything about the Amaroo property in Australia, nor the 106’ yacht named Serenity except what I have read on this Forum.

Since it appears that Maharaji’s affairs continue to be handled by many of the same people who were involved during my time, I have no reason to believe that anything illegal is or has taken place. I have acknowledged that, while Maharaji has done nothing illegal, there are justifiable grounds to question the ethics surrounding his accumulation of wealth. In that regard, I have taken particular exception to Élan Vital’s statement that Maharaji “in his private life, as a means of maintaining his independence, has business interests which have been very successful.“ To reiterate what I have already said, this statement is a shameful attempt to obscure the fact that his fortune is really based on the love, devotion and efforts of sincere and trusting premies who believed in him.

Michael

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Date: Thurs, Nov 16, 2000 at 18:04:28 (GMT)
From: Sanford Pass
Email: None
To: Michael Dettmers
Subject: Hi Michael...more questions to answer please....
Message:
Michael,

I have been away and am just getting caught up reading here. I do freelance video camera work and spent the last four days at the Plaza in NYC. Surrounded by all that opulance, many thoughts - not covetous, but curious - and some questions came to me, some of which I am posing to you below. I have appreciated your lucid and consicse remarks. They are a welcome ingredient in this very emotionally wrenching exprience of soul-searching and examination of the teacher-student relationship all present have had or are having with Maharaji, regardless of social positon, PAM, X, or any other worldly status.

This touches all of us in the most personal and vulnerable spot, more personal than anything physical, mental or emotional. We gave up our hearts, our lives, our trust. In light of that, money is not the primary issue, however I do realize how important money is in this world. The internal entanglements surrounding all this are unbelievably intricate and sensitive once exposed to the bright light sincere and honest scrutiny.

Forgive me if I missed something you have already said, but what I would like your feedback about is this:

Given that Maharaji has connections who can very successfully multiply wealth (his/ours), has he shared THIS Knowledge with ANY premies at all, even his 'inner x circle'? There are those outside of that realm who could really use help to understand how to even survive in this world, make a decent living, have a decent shelter, get their kids insured, through college (just like his kids), pay the bills, etc., get to programs, purchase his advertising specialty items for his mission, let alone buy yachts and all the rest, not that there's anything wrong with that, as Jerry Seinfeld would say. I recall an old saying, 'You can't tell a hungry man about God' or 'To a hungry man, God is a piece of bread.' There are many hungry premies all over the world, maybe young inexperienced souls, maybe they blew it and screwed up, whatever...no judgement on anybody. One of my most vivid memories of going to festivals in Miami when I lived there was that sometimes I'd be the guy sitting on the concrete with my hand out for help to get in, an sometimes I'd be the guy in the suit and the person I would help out would be the one who was in the suit when I was down. Lessons learned, but no need to re-learn this over and over worldwide as I see it.

Seems to me EV could be or could have been a point of dowloaded information from Maharaji and his investors and advisors to premies to assist in the nuts and bolts of life, just like at a festival, where to stay, eat, financial assistance, etc. this could have actually helped the premie businesses and everyone would have benefitted. A life preserver without a rope attached can save a life, but then it just bobs around on the waves, never drawn to shore. That's how Knowledge feels now, like OK, I've got this very intense and tangible experience within me that I know is real and connects me to myself and peace, but I am drifting like everyone else out here, trying to 'make it' in the physical world. Do you know why he never encouraged or helped needy premies to get smarter and richer? It would have made him richer besides, if premies had more to give. So it doesn't add up, as so many things seem not to on this beautiful fall day.

It feels like a new caste system has been established, not based on birth or blood but cold hard cash, crossing all cultural, racial and social barriers. Doesn't feel good at all, money being the bottom line in the realm of premies and Maharaji. Caste is caste, whatever it is based on. I understand that's how the world is, but it is so sad and disheartening to see it happening among people who have come for so much more than that.

As for the 'smart card' and EV's use of it to facilitate transactions for programs, do you have any knowledge of the impending 'cashless society' and all that it entails? Are you familiar with the subtle 'Pandora's box that the smart cards are connected to?

I have heard over and over that EV runs itself and Mahraji has nothing to do with its day-to-day activities. This simply does not make any sense to me whatsoever. Here he is out to save the world and he is not directing the organization that represents him in any way? Is the Board of Directors of EV going to vote down or disagree with someone who is embedded in their psyche to be the Word made flesh? I find this very hard to take. Is it said just for legal reasons or what? Yeah, I can see EV deciding who is going to staff the booth at the next festival or something like that, but as for the real decisionmaking, what is up?

I know noble and holy people who are struggling financially and I know some real jerks who are loaded. I would have thought that in the 'premie world' valuable information that could make the inner wealth of Knowledge be manifested physically (on earth as it is in Heaven) would be shared by all, not just by the teacher and a few close associates. Your experience and comments?

Sanford

PS - A Note to Silent Observers

I would bet what little money I have that EV and others are monitoring this site, and to those of you who fit this description I ask the same questions I am asking Michael, with all due respect to all readers, whoever you are and whatever your station, whether it's you Maharaji, sitting in one of your mansions or sophisitcated vehicles to which you may well be entitled, or whether it's a bleary-eyed, exhausted premie doing service in some studio apartment surrounded by overdue bills with devotional music playing.

I know I speak not only for myself but for many many sincere people who feel very (temporarily) disempowered and disoriented in life by all of this. But we are getting our strength back. Whatever doesn't kill us makes us stronger I have heard. May we all be made stronger by our search for the truth of our own lives and those we allowed in so close to us.

I call from the depths of my being in the presnece of witnesses, from the place where Knowledge itself dwells within me, upon all that is holy and true in the universe, to once and for all clear the confusion and bring clarity and accurate information, not just for me but for all present who are in suffering and who have questions and scars from the past and present, knowing that my call is being heard way beyond cyberspace and anyone who may be reading these words. So be it.

I ask this in the presence of witnesses and in the conscious presence of the Holy Name, trusting in the promise that whatever I ask in in the spirit of the Holy Name will come to pass.
No worries.

Sincerely,
Sanford Pass

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Date: Thurs, Nov 16, 2000 at 18:55:06 (GMT)
From: cq
Email: None
To: Sanford Pass
Subject: Poor, sweet, deluded fools that we were ...
Message:
Sandy, I know you want Michael to reply, but while you're waiting, may I offer this:

Your post has all the hallmarks of being heartfelt, but I guess the divide between the attitudes of those who still respect Maharaji and those of us who don't, makes communication a touch difficult at times.

Yup, I remember thinking similarly about him. I, too, accepted the culture of belief in his divinity, his purpose, his ... magnanimity, for spreading 'Knowledge' to the world. It was a cause to believe in. It could have really made a difference.

There's a massive gulf between how I viewed all this as a premie, and how it now appears.

Now it's all too easy to mock the beliefs and dependency that still surround M. But you sounded like you wanted your post to be taken seriously, so I'll respond in the spirit that was intended.

You say:

'I have heard over and over that EV runs itself and Mahraji has nothing to do with its day-to-day activities. This simply does not make any sense to me whatsoever. Here he is out to save the world and he is not directing the organization that represents him in any way?'

It is your belief that he is 'out to save the world'. Are you strong enough to entertain the possibility that you just might be mistaken here?

'Whatever doesn't kill us makes us stronger' -
well it sounds like wisdom, until you realise that such a generalisation can be abused, and for all the wrong reasons. Wasting the opportunity of getting on with our own lives, and of finding our own priorities - that doesn't kill us. But no way does it make us stronger.


'May we all be made stronger by our search for the truth of our own lives'
yup, you'll need strength and inner reserves when you find the courage to look at Maharaji as he really is, not just as how you want to see him.


Good luck,

Chris

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Date: Thurs, Nov 16, 2000 at 21:29:16 (GMT)
From: shp
Email: None
To: cq
Subject: And fools rush in...da da da da da da
Message:
Your post has all the hallmarks of being heartfelt, but I guess the divide between the attitudes of those who still respect Maharaji and those of us who don't, makes communication a touch difficult at times. -cq

I will make an agreement with you and anyone else here. I will agree to be peaceful and respectful in my talk with you and do my best to relate with you using all the light I have at any given here and now to be as honest as my spirit and conscience direct me to be. I have no quarrel with you personally and you don't have one with me either. You have a quarrel with Maharaji, I caught wind of it a bit over a year ago here and wanted to know wazzup and here we are. How's that? -shp

Yup, I remember thinking similarly about him. I, too, accepted the culture of belief in his divinity, his purpose, his ... magnanimity, for spreading 'Knowledge' to the world. It was a cause to believe in. It could have really made a difference.
-cq

I believe he has made a positive difference for those who practice Knowledge, regardless of anything we talk about here.
-shp

It is your belief that he is 'out to save the world'. Are you strong enough to entertain the possibility that you just might be mistaken here? -cq

Remember the film that was produced including clips of Maharaji arriving in America and being interviewed in the early years over here? One question was about bringing peace to the world and he answered, 'Yes, as a matter of fact I am doing that right now!' To me, it was an like inside joke that he was in Holy Name and that is the Only Way that Knowledge of God and Peace will ever become reality in this world, when individuals experience it within first. Then there are those who are awaiting Armageddon, the Rapture, the Big It, etc as foretold in many holy books from many places. Far as I'm concerned, the Kingdom of Heaven is at hand (here and now, always, that's where it is, nowhere else, not past or future. Here Now is where we are on the cosmic mall map. We are Here. We are Now. We aren't yesterday or tomorrow. Yadda yadda, I'm preaching to the choir, ain't I? Sorry about that. -shp

'Whatever doesn't kill us makes us stronger' - shp

well it sounds like wisdom, until you realise that such a generalisation can be abused, and for all the wrong reasons. Wasting the opportunity of getting on with our own lives, and of finding our own priorities - that doesn't kill us. But no way does it make us stronger. -cq

Anything can be abused. Peanut butter can be abused. As for 'our lives', if you want to get technical, we gave the reins to him. Now some of us don't like the way the reins seem to be beng handled and want them back. Everyone has their story, their voice. Each is to be respected as the life experience of a sovereign human being, no better or worse than any other in the eyes of the Creator. We can't agree or disagree with someone's direct experience, we can only listen and absorb the words, thoughts and feelings of the teller. There is no wrong or right to someone's experience. We can only be there and share the joy or sorrow of the moment. I am no one's judge, not even my own.

(atheists, agnostics, and general bible haters, please skip to next paragraph)
I also beleive that energy expended (sowing) results in energy returned (reaping) on an individual soul basis, and no one can touch that immutable law of cause and effect, save Forgiveness Grace, hence their supreme preciousness and the necessity to produce in real time and real life the tragic street theatre that had to take place 2000 years ago to dramatize the the fact, played most admirably by the Rabbi Jesus of Nazareth, who brought the Knowledge from China, Tibet and India as far west as it had ever been in our known history. This set up the stage for the next move, which was to spread it from the east even unto the west, all the way full circle, to be led by a little child.
That's historical reference, and I don't think people wrote it just to mess with their progeny's heads. For what? -shp

One thing for sure I agree wtih that he said was in answer to the question 'What is the most precious thing you gave us?' To which he replied, 'Each other'. Right on. Where would anyone of us be now if we had no one to talk to, be we premie, ex-premie, or just going through a midlife audit of everything and doing some serious soul searching, truth or dare style. -shp

'May we all be made stronger by our search for the truth of our own lives' -shp

yup, you'll need strength and inner reserves when you find the courage to look at Maharaji as he really is, not just as how you want to see him. -cq

'How I want to see him', as you put it, is in the clear light of truth. St. Paul (atheists, agnostics, and general bible haters, please skip to next paragraph) advised us to 'try the spirits to see if they be of God.' I figure that if God is all-loving, then He won't mind being carded, so to speak, realizing the dilemma we mortals, His children, are having in this darkest of Kali Yugas to find our way home. When I'm out and I forgot my key and I knock, I don't mind my kid asking who is at the door or checking out the peephole. I would not want him to just open the door to our home to anyone just because they knocked. I thnk that is a reflection of how God feels about us, for the love of a parent is not unlike the love of a Creator. -shp

Good luck, Chris

This has nothing to do with luck, but I accept the vibe behind your words. Sandy

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Date: Thurs, Nov 16, 2000 at 22:25:24 (GMT)
From: Stonor
Email: None
To: shp
Subject: A tad 'judgemental', no?
Message:
Hello Sanford,

One thing for sure I agree with that he said was in answer to the question 'What is the most precious thing you gave us?' To which he replied, 'Each other'. Right on. Where would anyone of us be now if we had no one to talk to, be we premie, ex-premie, or just going through a midlife audit of everything and doing some serious soul searching, truth or dare style. -shp

I have to assume you are telling the truth here, but I find it hard to believe; m said he gave you each other?!! Perhaps I'm misunderstanding, but you seem to be including even those who have never been associated with m, but I doubt it, because it seems to me that many who have been associated with m see those who are not as some kind of inferior beings or, at best, lost souls. I rejected churchianity as a child because of precisely the same 'belief' system.

One way or another, just reading this hurts my head and my heart. How could anyone take this (insanity) seriously? It's appalling what m and 'k' seem to do a premies heart, mind and soul. With regards to the 'mid-life audit of everything and doing some serious soul searching', it's never too late! ('truth or dare style?' How can you cheapen the concept of soul-searching with such a childish phrase?)

Anna

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Date: Fri, Nov 17, 2000 at 01:28:34 (GMT)
From: shp
Email: None
To: Stonor
Subject: Please forgive me, I am still under construction.
Message:
Anna,

So sorry that you had a bad reaction to what I said. On one hand I can always be better at communicating, and on the other hand I am not here for your entertainment and pleasure. I will work on my communication and perhaps you could read with a bit more compassion, just as you would like me or someone else to do when reading soemthing you had to dig deep for to bring out. OK?

Maybe if you check it out between the lines, tune into where I was coming from, your headache might subside a bit.

I do believe that we are siblings in the Creator's eyes and have the potential to have such a relationship. And I do not think people without Knowledge or those who have left are any less than me in any way. Everything can shift in a nanosecond, without a moment to reconsider our evaluation. So I try to remain clear of all that.

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Date: Fri, Nov 17, 2000 at 04:08:12 (GMT)
From: Stonor
Email: None
To: shp
Subject: Please forgive me, I am still under construction.
Message:
Sure Sanford,

We are all 'works' in progress, we can all do better at communicating, but what does communication have to do with 'entertainment and pleasure,' and why do you imply that that is what I am reading here for?

I have the same 'bad reaction' when I read the words of m, most premies, a few of exes', born again Christians, and a number of other cultic types. Cultic thinking also seems to exist in many everyday 'institutions': the arts, sports, politics, industry, and most sadly, marriage and other social relationships. All negative cults enslave.

I do feel compassion for you Sanford, that's why I'm taking the time to communicate my observations to you, please forgive my awkwardness, but I would like to see you break free in the same way that I would like to see a woman I was talking with earlier tonight break free of an abusive, self-nihilating relationship. 'Whatever-It-Is' gave you your being, my being and m's being, same as everything else; what are you going to do with yours?

You acknowledge the human family and deny it in one sentence:

I do believe that we are siblings in the Creator's eyes and have the potential to have such a relationship.

In the Creator's eyes? What about in your eyes? Are we siblings, or are we only born with the potential to become siblings? If the latter, rather than the former is true, what is the process through which to actualize this potential, and what are the criteria through which to recognize this type of transformation? Most importantly for me, as I've asked a number of premies and exes, if you 'realize' that we are all one, what do you do with that knowledge? IMO, we are siblings, but we could certainly improve the quality of our relationships with each other and our environment, wouldn't you agree? I don't hear many 'devotees' of any kind doing anything about these 'real' issues.

To me, it's possible that your words are an example of what Toby mentioned above, :

I remember in the beginning of the 90's Rajaji was touring and giving strange examples about truth like: 'when it is day and I say it's night, it is also true because on the other side of the earth it is still day.' I didn't understand it at that time why he was trying to relativate such things. But now I know that it was a part of the campaign to make the premies professional liars and to corrupt their characters which partially worked pretty well.

Anna

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Date: Wed, Nov 15, 2000 at 06:20:55 (GMT)
From: Steve Quint
Email: the_avenger55@hotmail.com
To: Michael Dettmers
Subject: By The Way
Message:
By the way, Michael, I was very close to your brother Peter in the late seventies and have fond memories of conversations with your mother.

Steve

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Date: Mon, Nov 13, 2000 at 21:07:08 (GMT)
From: suchabanana
Email: None
To: Michael Dettmers
Subject: those darn financial details, and Paradise Lost
Message:
Dear Michael:

Thanks for finally responding. Ok - I understand that you can't talk about the money that much (at all?). Frankly, I am disappointed that some parts of the financial information have not been placed in the jigsaw puzzle that has been gradually pieced together here. Indeed, the confidentiality agreements reached with several informed individuals have served to perpetuate and protect m.'s operations from closer scrutiny and questioning by the premies, especially, as well as the media and various regulatory agencies. However, I think that your posts have helped provide a better understanding of the shuffling and processes that most of us were never honestly apprised of by the organization or m.

Based on other sources, though, I personally think that some illegal activities might have happened (unbeknownst to you) involving large amounts of cash. A lot of cash got laundered through those knowledge sessions and darshan lines. While you understandably state that nothing illegal happened under your watch, that is also essentially a technicality and an opinion, too -- I feel that m. has violated and, in fact, grossly abused the trust of the premies, as well as his position as an alleged spiritual leader. I further believe a number of inexcusable improprieties were committed and concealed via the organization in diverse matters. (Sarupanand ji and the gurus who preceded him did not milk the kn. techniques as a cash cow and transform propagation and service into a worldly ego power trip.)

Coming from the civil rights, peace, and youth movements of the time, we were all very vulnerable and gullible, in retrospect.

My own conclusions coincide with yours [as you stated above]: '...there are justifiable grounds to question the ethics surrounding his accumulation of wealth. In that regard, I have taken particular exception to Élan Vital’s statement that Maharaji 'in his private life, as a means of maintaining his independence, has business interests which have been very successful.' To reiterate what I have already said, this statement is a shameful attempt to obscure the fact that his fortune is really based on the love, devotion and efforts of sincere and trusting premies who believed in him.'

On a related note (subject: criminal matters), I am also personally aware of events/details relating to Fakiranand's braining of a radical Detroit reporter in the summer of 1973. I was at the ashram, met with, and spoke briefly with mahatmaji that same evening. Other persons directly associated with DLM were clearly involved, from my observation. That's obviously why DLM settled with the reporter (I think the figure was about $100,000) - to prevent a trial and the terrible publicity that would ensue. The Detroit and national press was already fairly skeptical of m. at the time. While the pie incident got a lot of attention, it is interesting that the criminal assault by Fakiranand was basically hushed up asap. [I should have saved the news clippings.]

I'm not one to get on your case (too much), given your situation and the circumstances of many other persons. I mean, if I was naive for almost 30 years, then you obviously thought you were doing the right thing, at the time. When the doubts and ethics issues became too much, you left. Alas, hindsight informs us that perhaps we should have left sooner? However, I was never in a position to witness the financial information you are privy to r.e. m.

Michael, in reviewing your confidentiality agreement, are they any other areas you can discuss here, such as the ownership of SEVA corp., Monica-m., why an L.A. house was co-purchased for April Gillam, the setup and arrangement with premie businesses, shares in those businesses (book distribution, etc.), or other areas you could shed some light upon? How about just annual DLM/EVI revenues/various expenses, proportionately?

What's this report about a G-5? Really?! Amazing - when is enough ever going to be enough?

I will be preparing a short, factual introduction (1 paragraph each) to some of the EVI plane documents (Lear and Challenger fundraising letters recently posted on this site) later this week. When I'm done, I would be obliged if you would review my assessment of the 1980s plane projects/campaigns - for accuracy and any missing details. Besides the early prop planes, 707, Lear, Challengers, G-4, glider, and Bell chopper, were there any other aircraft or related projects? What were those first 2 planes? Beechcraft? Also, the Deca project. If you or someone else could prepare a succint 1-2 paragraph explanatory summary about Deca, that would effectively help put Deca into better perspective in the whole procession of increasingly expensive aircraft. A G-5, really?!!

Personally, it was a shattering experience to find one's faith, trust and confidence in m. destroyed. Then, after the disillusionment to find hope and purpose again. A lot of soul searching...

The last steps to enlightenment may involve discarding the master and his image - ultimately deterrents and concepts on the path of truth. I now worship the conscious infinite energy permeating and operating this entire universe, not any specific human being (although some merit my respect). [Nihilism was not a viable or healthy alternative for me.]

Paradise Lost, wisdom gained, and after the pain - a life renewed.

Peace,

PS I couldn't sleep last night, so I watched the inner light in between my eyes (without doing the technique). When I pray for guidance, the light gets brighter. Same as it ever was... And so, I continue and persevere in my own personal experience.

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Date: Mon, Nov 13, 2000 at 22:09:13 (GMT)
From: Marianne
Email: MarianneDB@aol.com
To: suchabanana
Subject: Detroit ashram
Message:
suchabanana: We probably know each other. I lived in the Kalamazoo ashram in '73-'74. Received k in Grand Rapids in November of '72. I used to go to Detroit regularly during '72-'74 to do propagation. I was very close to Dean Zito.


Marianne

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Date: Tues, Nov 14, 2000 at 16:23:49 (GMT)
From: Marianne
Email: MarianneDB@aol.com
To: suchabanana
Subject: PS to suchabanana
Message:
I forgot to mention that I was in the audience in Detroit when M got pied.

Marianne

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Date: Wed, Nov 15, 2000 at 05:03:58 (GMT)
From: suchabanana
Email: None
To: Marianne
Subject: Detroit/Soupy Sales trad led to m. party pie rite
Message:
I was at several parties after that incident where m. threw pies in the faces of premies (incl a b'day on the Queen Mary at Long Beach). Pie-throwing became almost a bizarre m. rite to make light of and play down the Detroit incident (Fakiranand's braining session was never revived as a skit, however). Maybe some people thought some kind of karma was being worked out - hah!

At the Detroit ceremony: What transpired, from your observation? Did he get the award first (key to the city or plaque), then blam? Remember the cover photo of it in the newspaper the next morning? That photo appeared all over the country. Do we have it posted on this site yet? [I'll have to check]

The pie incident and Fakiranand's swift revenge basically killed everything for that upcoming Soul Rush event at Cobo Hall, too! Cancelled. Remember those 'Guru Maharaj ji is here and now' black and white face posters? and Millenium '73 color posters? and 'Who is Guru Maharaj ji' literature? 13-year Perfect Master and Lord of the Universe stuff? Some areas of the larger US cities were plastered with those posters and flyers during much of 1973.

How many times did m. ever go back to Detroit? I don't think it turned out to be a hot spot for propagation! I went to California after the pie and baragon incidents.

Peace,

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Date: Wed, Nov 15, 2000 at 16:17:36 (GMT)
From: Marianne
Email: MarianneDB@aol.com
To: suchabanana
Subject: Trip down memory lane
Message:
Hey such, I have one of those black and white leaflets from propagating in Detroit!!!! I was 3 rows back from the front of the stage. M got the key first, and then BLAM! I remember the totally horrified looks on the faces of Dean and Jeff.

I was also at the Queen Mary event, and it was Bihari Singh who got pied there by M. I even have pictures of it. I moved to SF in August, 1974, and the Queen Mary event was that December, for M's birthday.

Are you in touch with anyone from the Detroit ashram?

Marianne

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Date: Wed, Nov 15, 2000 at 20:33:59 (GMT)
From: such
Email: None
To: Marianne
Subject: can u scan poster + pie photo, email to post here?
Message:
I was just in the Detroit area for about 6 weeks doing propagation for the event. Then I went to Calif. (via Soul Rush events - some were cancelled because he got sick) before being sent to Houston for Millenium preparation and event. (I sat on the stage for 3 days 15-20 feet from m.) Those were pretty intense times!

After the pie-throwing, Fakiranand and those 2 brothers showed that freak reporter stars. Was it the baragon or a hammer - there have been varying reports? Did you save any of the news clips? What was that weekly rag - Fifth Estate?

Fakiranand and the 2 brothers (names?) stopped by the ashram (in the evening) -- long-distance phone calls were going back and forth. A car was packed with luggage, and parked in front on the street. Fakiranand had changed from his usual saffron outfit to nondescript street clothes and was hanging out by the car, waiting. Something was odd in his uneasy manner - he was not acting like himself. When I walked out to greet him, he was very surprised to see me (I had last seen him in L.A.), and I asked him what was happening and if he was leaving. One guy was at the wheel waiting to go. Fakiranand was by the trunk. The other brother came back out, said something to Fakiranand, and then he said they were going to Chicago now. They got in the car and left fast. That was the last time I ever saw Fakiranand.

That small black and white poster - can you scan it?

Also, the Queen Mary pie-throwing pic - that would be great for this site and a brief explanation after the mention of the Detroit incidents.

Peace,

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Date: Mon, Nov 13, 2000 at 18:18:23 (GMT)
From: Steve Quint
Email: the_avenger55@hotmail.com
To: Michael Dettmers
Subject: My response to your question
Message:
O.K. I can't hold back on this one.

Could anyone imagine P.P. Singh Rawat suing Michael Dettmers based on breach of the non-disclosure agreement?

The bad publicity would be the last nail in his coffin.

Come on Michael.

Steve

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Date: Mon, Nov 13, 2000 at 19:14:28 (GMT)
From: JohnT
Email: None
To: Steve Quint
Subject: Hear! Hear!
Message:
And Rawat would have to put up or shut up.

He could hardly put it about that MD had broken the Agreement -- under those circumstances people would expect Rawat to take legal action, not just bleat. It would be a very serious allegation.

But Rawat is hardly likely to put himself in a position where he could be cross-examined in court, is he? Not about the nature or purpose of his businesses, and where the money originally came from.

And even if this unlikely scenario were to unfold (as one might say, in front of dear Jim's drooling jaws) are we to believe the court would find for Rawat? In the matter of a non-disclosure agreement with a false God and fraudulent Messiah?

No, Rawat would not sue. And if he did, the Agreement would be unenforceable. Rawat's Mission (the whole ground and substance of the matter) was ever a fraud.

J'accuse Rawat!

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Date: Mon, Nov 13, 2000 at 19:05:07 (GMT)
From: Michael Dettmers
Email: dettmers@gylanix.com
To: Steve Quint
Subject: My response to your question
Message:
Steve,

I am well aware of that argument, but it fails to take into account a point which I have made a couple of times alraedy. I have current clients who, as a standard practice, include non-disclosure clauses in all of their agreements with outside consultants.

I am not going to put myself in the position where I may have to explain the circumstances under which I selectively decided to ignore such a provision.

Michael

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Date: Tues, Nov 14, 2000 at 05:15:05 (GMT)
From: JTF
Email: None
To: Michael Dettmers
Subject: You could just explain to current clients......
Message:
that you once thought this ugly fat slob rawat was the incarnation of GOD. You were duped and you want to help others not make the same mistake.
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Date: Mon, Nov 13, 2000 at 21:28:42 (GMT)
From: Steve Quint
Email: the_avenger55@hotmail.com
To: Michael Dettmers
Subject: My response to your question
Message:
Poor argument, sir.

Think of the mental health and wellbeing of hundreds or thousands or people that would benefit from full disclosure. You are obviously multi-talented and should firstly, gain the cheers and admiration of any sane-minded client and secondly you could and should, if your clients turn out not to be such people, surely find gainful employment elsewhere. You would have done a significant service and cleared your mind of any lingering guilt.

Steve

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Date: Tues, Nov 14, 2000 at 01:06:43 (GMT)
From: DV
Email: None
To: Steve Quint
Subject: Grow up, Quint.
Message:
I couldn't help but read your post, even tho I promised myself not to. Before I got on line, I was thinking of suggesting to MD to take a break from this site, so the rabble could die down. Sure enough, look what's here. You want MD to be responsible for your 'hundreds and thousands'? Sacrifice his career on some misplaced guilt trip? Why stop there. What about the community coordinators, the house mama, papas, blah blah blah. Maybe he could finf gainfull employment like yourself, in the food service or housekeeping industries...
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Date: Tues, Nov 14, 2000 at 02:17:38 (GMT)
From: Steve Quint
Email: the_avenger55@hotmail.com
To: DV
Subject: Fulfill Your Promises, DV
Message:
I can see that you have also been a devotee of the monster. You've learnt well not to fulfill your promises.
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Date: Wed, Nov 15, 2000 at 00:57:39 (GMT)
From: DV
Email: None
To: Steve Quint
Subject: Explain yourself,
Message:
or shut up.
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Date: Wed, Nov 15, 2000 at 05:44:14 (GMT)
From: Steve Quint
Email: the_avenger55@hotmail.com
To: DV
Subject: It's Impossible To Explain Anything To An Idiot
Message:
And don't ever tell me to 'shut up'.
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Date: Mon, Nov 13, 2000 at 22:33:50 (GMT)
From: Brian
Email: brian@ex-premie.org
To: Steve Quint
Subject: Be serious
Message:
Think of the mental health and wellbeing of hundreds or thousands or people that would benefit from full disclosure.

They are not his problem in life, Steven. And they aren't really your concern in your post. You just wanna know is all, and if curiosity kills the financial cat, so what? It's not YOUR cat, right?

You would have done a significant service and cleared your mind of any lingering guilt.

You're not the least bit concerned here about Michael's well-being, but you can rationalize the behavior you encourage like THIS?? That's Rawat's ploy - asking self-sacrifice from others in 'their best interest', when actually HE is the one benefitting from it.

Life isn't about 'doing service'. It's about doing what you believe is right - according to your own values. You either do or don't live by your own principals, and they either do or don't work for you. Only a fool would make personal or business decisions based on the mental health and wellbeing of hundreds or thousands of other people.

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Date: Tues, Nov 14, 2000 at 18:35:54 (GMT)
From: cq
Email: None
To: Brian
Subject: er, excuse me?
Message:
Brian, your argument would free even Hermann Goering of any responsibility for his complicity in the 3rd Reich!

You say: 'Only a fool would make personal or business decisions based on the mental health and wellbeing of hundreds or thousands of other people.'

You sure you meant to say that?

I agree when you say that life is 'about doing what you believe is right', but if Michael Dettmers choses to refrain from outing one of the world's major con-artists who is continuing to screw up the lives of too many people (and I have an inkling that Michael's got the means to out him - why else would Rawat have required the non-disclosure clause?) if Dettmers prefers just to protect his own reputation as 'a secure business-partner', then that says a lot more about his so-called 'ethical' stance (and his choice of business partners) than he might wish.

Michael's own financial well-being might be the most important thing is his own life, but why should it be in ours?

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Date: Tues, Nov 14, 2000 at 21:20:26 (GMT)
From: Brian
Email: brian@ex-premie.org
To: cq
Subject: er, excuse me?
Message:
When Steven makes the statement that the mental health and wellbeing of hundreds or thousands of other people [HIS words, not mine] is somehow hinging on what Michael Dettmers decides to post on this forum, I don't share his belief. Were Michael to modify his personal values based on Steven's belief in Michael's amazing power over these fictional lives, Michael would be a fool in my eyes.

Now, tell me you didn't follow that in the thread. Do you happen to believe that you personally have the ability to destroy or repair that many lives based on what you post here? Are paople able to pull your strings in life by saying that they will be 'hurt' by your not behaving as they dictate? Do you really accept that shouldering a self-sacrificing 'responsibility' to serve someone else's demands is more important than living by your own values? I hope not...

You brought up Hermann Goering. Why not instead make your point by saying that Dorothy was cruel and unfeeling to hurt so many people who wanted her to remain in Oz?? It's nicer, and just sa much gibberish in my mind.

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Date: Wed, Nov 15, 2000 at 18:40:41 (GMT)
From: cq
Email: None
To: Brian
Subject: er, excuse me?
Message:
It's been a long day at work, but I'll try to put a few relevant thoughts together.


Perhaps the scenario Steve is envisaging goes something like this:


The Maha has, over the decades, had a very big effect on literally thousands (maybe even tens of thousands?) of people.

The effect of becoming ensnared into his dependency trip is expensive - not just financially, but in terms of wasted time, opportunities, misplaced faith etc.

And the Maha still continues to snare people.

How many, over the next decade (for instance) will go through the whole trip, and come out the other side of it thinking - 'what the hell did I waste my energy on that for?'

Now, suppose (a long shot, but a possibility) that someone like Michael Dettmers (or Peter Potter, for instance), who has the low-down on some the Maha's less-than-ethical money-making scams, were to come forward and alert the various government agencies (that are supposed to prevent fraudulent misappropriation of charity/church funds) to the fact that M's empire is a lot less squeaky-clean than it's painted.

To cut a long story short, what if it led to the Maha being discredited to the extent that he could never profit from his scam again (maybe even face tax-evasion charges, who knows?)

The point is this - wouldn't putting him out of action save a lot of sweat and tears on the part of the people who are still being drawn into it? (not to mention the sense of closure it would bring many of us who post here at ex-premie.org).

I guess the question is this: is it ethical to let the man continue to damage people's lives when you've got the ability to prevent him?

Is it?

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Date: Wed, Nov 15, 2000 at 09:39:14 (GMT)
From: JohnT
Email: None
To: Brian
Subject: How about ...
Message:
Only a cad would make personal or business decisions without considering thier impact on the mental health and wellbeing of... of other people.

Call me an old fashioned guy, but I do think other people matter.

Does the former right hand man to 'God incarnate' think otherwise?

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Date: Tues, Nov 14, 2000 at 22:58:37 (GMT)
From: a0aji
Email: None
To: forum
Subject: Godwin Limit proximity alert
Message:
Godwin's Law prov. [Usenet] 'As a Usenet discussion grows longer, the probability of a comparison involving Nazis or Hitler approaches one.' There is a tradition in many groups that, once this occurs, that thread is over, and whoever mentioned the Nazis has automatically lost whatever argument was in progress. Godwin's Law thus practically guarantees the existence of an upper bound on thread length in those groups.

(From the Jargon file)

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Date: Tues, Nov 14, 2000 at 06:13:27 (GMT)
From: Daneane
Email: None
To: Brian
Subject: Be serious
Message:
As usual I find Brian has touched on a very interesting topic here. Both manipulation and self-sacrifice.

I'm reading a book, a novel, by Mark Salzman called 'Lying Awake'. I've only read the first 60 pages. It's about devotion. It's about women in a Carmelite monastery living a 'contemplative life'. From the first page its about everything being devotion to god -- every thought, every move, in gratitude and prayer -- utter credit to their god and sacrifice to the point of pain.

Again and again in so many ways of life and beliefs I see this worship of others to the detriment and discredit of one's self.

Makes me wonder why. Even in something as seemingly harmless as rock star worship...I heard a story of a woman fighting her way back stage at a Red Hot Chili Peppers concert, fighting over a pair of Flea's sweaty underwear, then actually wringing them out above her face to drink the drop of sweat that fell from them. She felt satisfied to finally have a part of him in her.

So I wonder...the utter devotion to the false Lord of the Universe in M sucks, yes. But it seems to the utter devotion to anyone and anything sucks as well. I guess maybe this just touches on that line between being part of a group and being in a cult.

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Date: Tues, Nov 14, 2000 at 04:16:58 (GMT)
From: bill
Email: None
To: Brian
Subject: Brian
Message:
Hi Brian,
Just saw your thread below.
I cant email from this computer, although I can send and recieve email at the rocketmail address.
Would you send me the address you want the money sent to.
And if you want checks, I will need your last name again!
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Date: Tues, Nov 14, 2000 at 14:24:41 (GMT)
From: Brian
Email: brian@ex-premie.org
To: bill
Subject: What's your email address?
Message:
Umm, Bill... you could email me FROM rocketmail so that I know where to send the email [grin]

brian@ex-premie.org

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Date: Wed, Nov 15, 2000 at 04:23:24 (GMT)
From: bill
Email: None
To: Brian
Subject: sure..nt
Message:
sdgh
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Date: Mon, Nov 13, 2000 at 23:15:48 (GMT)
From: Steve Quint
Email: the_avenger55@hotmail.com
To: Brian
Subject: Have you become so twisted?
Message:
Have you become so twisted and cynical from followin m that consideration of others and consideration of reason is totally irrelevant to you?
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Date: Mon, Nov 13, 2000 at 21:23:05 (GMT)
From: cq
Email: None
To: Michael Dettmers
Subject: questions raise questions - legal questions ...
Message:
Michael, I hope you won't forget that some of your current clients might view your apparent so-called loyalty, under the mask of your non-disclosure agreement with Maharaji, alias Guru Maharaj Ji, (the man that claimed to be God incarnate) actually puts you in a far less ethically sound position than you might hope.

It's one thing to swear not to disclose information. It's quite another to with-hold information that could lead to a conviction.

Are you prepared to take your 'legal' non-disclosure clause into court?

Just asking.

PS I repost my reply to Janet (in a post about the UK Charity Commission) below, in the hope that is might help you view this whole scenario in another light:


Date:
Mon, Nov 13, 2000 at 19:52:10
From:
cq
Email:
None
To:
janet
Subject:
for starters.. you might send her...
Message:

Hi Janet,

There's so many beans to spill aren't there? I think we've got to remember that we're
dealing with a Government agency here, and one that plays things strictly by the books.
There are many people who are trustees of Charities (many of them very wealthy) whose
lives are less than ethical, but as long as they don't break the rules (at least as far as
Charity-status goes) then the Commission really has no power of retribution. No matter
how unethical the whole Maha scenario might seem to those of us who have seen through
it, the likes of the Commission can really do nothing UNTIL and UNLESS THEIR rules
are broken.

The Maha might have been (or still be) a piss-artist (ie given to binges on alcohol) but that
ain't no crime. He might have resisted dealing with his addiction in a therapy/counselling
scenario, but that ain't no crime. He might have been screwing every would-be Gopi that
thought he was Krishna re-incarnate, but ... you guessed it. He might have gotten stoned to
Peter Frampton but ... woah! now that might be criminal, but what do you think the
Charity Commission can do about that?

Heh, heh, ... get my drift? (that last bit should be said in a Barry White octave) - sad but
you gotta laugh, at least a bit?

Perhaps there's some way of proving that the Maha gets his income from nowhere else.
But first we gotta prove it.

It can be a long hard walk to get the criminals to face justice, especially when justice
(so-called) prefers to turn the other cheek. But what we're looking for here, in my
ever-so-jaundiced opinion, is for some people who COULD spill the real beans (the ones
that count, you dig?) to put their er ... 'non-disclosure agreements' are they called? - under
the spotlight.

Yeah, it's no surprise that Michael Dettmers' name comes to mind here, but I bet there's
plenty more that have signed similar agreements with the Maha, over the last few decades.

Michael might think, in some perverse way, that he's safeguarding his quote 'ethical' interests by preventing a criminal (OK - it hasn't been proved yet, but you know what I'm getting at) from facing the music. But I wonder what his current clients (especially any 'religously'-inclined ones) might think of that attitude?
.
.
.

Where do we go from here?

Evidence of illegal behaviour - particularly on the financial front. That's what's required.

Who to supply it?

i wonder.

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Date: Mon, Nov 13, 2000 at 01:30:00 (GMT)
From: gerry
Email: None
To: Michael Dettmers
Subject: something's hinky with you dettmers...
Message:
I think you are a big bullshit artist who is trying to cover his ass in case the shit hits the fan on goober's frauduent aquisition of wealth.
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Date: Mon, Nov 13, 2000 at 16:16:42 (GMT)
From: Rick
Email: None
To: gerry
Subject: something's hinky with you dettmers...
Message:
gErRy,
Dettmers has given some valuable information to this forum and just about everyone here believes it. His motivation may not be completely pure but it doesn't matter.

His presentation is pretty slick and I can see how that makes you wonder. But Dettmers has essentially co-signed on the most important items on our list of complaints about maharaji. That's worth alot regardless of how much the guy bothers you.

Maybe it's time to loosen up, gErRy. Steal some sodas and ball-point pens from the local Rexall. Add a couple of fake jobs to your resume or put a little dye on those greying temples.

Everyone's dying to get something for free, gErRy, and most people do it. They pop a few grapes in their choppers before they get to the checkout stand, or get in the ten-items-only line with fifteen cans of soup. Hell, Katie even stole my silverware and salt shakers.

See gErRy, you're so frustrated that anyone's getting anything for free while you're being such a good boy, and it's just eating away at you. Live a little, Man, no one will blame you.

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Date: Mon, Nov 13, 2000 at 16:37:18 (GMT)
From: gErRy
Email: None
To: Rick
Subject: I knew I should have finished my university degree
Message:
then I'd be as smart and smooth as dettmers. Hey maybe I can still matriculate at Kennedy Western !!!

As far as living a little, well, I went razor clamming on Friday night. Does that count? But yeah, I took only my legal limit. And those damn dungeness crabs, if they were only an eighth of an inch bigger I coulda kept 'em.

Oh and I copped a few dances with a town chippie at the VFW Halloween night. Shoulda seen the dress she was wearing and none of the young dudes were hitting on her.

Patty led me out by my ear, though. It was kinda embarrassing but I had a mask on...

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Date: Mon, Nov 13, 2000 at 13:23:38 (GMT)
From: AJW
Email: None
To: gerry
Subject: something's hinky with you gerry...
Message:
gerry,

If Michael was trying to cover his ass- he wouldn't have posted here in the first place. Far much easier for him to drift silently into obscurity, like most of the other PAMs who have quit.

The fact that he has posted here and answered everyone's questions to the best of his ability is surely to his credit.

If you call him a bullshit artist- you should be specific and say exactly what he's been bullshitting about. The way I understand what he's written is he's telling it how it is.

Give the guy a break- he deserves a medal, not a slagging off.

Anth the Libran

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Date: Mon, Nov 13, 2000 at 15:35:43 (GMT)
From: gerry
Email: None
To: AJW
Subject: Well we all know THAT, Anth
Message:
The reason dettmers posted here was in response to Roger's excellent parody on his website. Anyone searching the net for info on dettmers got The House of Drek. You actually think he's here for any other reason? Like his conscience was bothering him? Ha ha ha ha, or Bwah ha ha ha ha, as Mike would say. No, he was flushed out.

How do you know he's answered all questions 'to the best of his ability?' He sounds very cagey and contrived to me. See my post to Patrick for more on 'bullshit.'

And Anth, dettmers already got his 'break.' His hush money, remember? Oh yeah, that and the deca company.

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Date: Mon, Nov 13, 2000 at 12:09:53 (GMT)
From: Sir Dave
Email: None
To: gerry
Subject: My life of crime in Divine Sales
Message:
If Mike Dettmers wanted to 'cover his ass' then writing stuff on this forum wouldn't help him. If it comes down to illegalities, such things are decided in a court of law, not a message board.

I used to regularly embessle small amounts of money out of Divine Sales jumble sales. I was poor and I needed the cash. I was amazed at how easy it was and I considered the other premies to be too spaced out to worry about them catching me. Just pick up an item of clothing to hide my hand and then slip a few quid into my pocket. Did anyone else do this, I wonder? This was a regular Saturday afternoon income for me.

On the financial level of Mike Dettmers and Maharaji, there's many loopholes and there's no need to do anything illegal. I think Maharaji has always done illegal things - drug smuggling, diamond smuggling, drug possession etc but if an accountant such as Mike Dettmers was dealing with his financial affairs, he'd make sure that everything was above board and legit.

An accountant won't want to risk losing their accountant's licence to operate and they'll know all the legal loopholes to legaly cut taxes, hide money etc. So I'd agree with others here and say that Mike Dettmers wouldn't have do anything illegal, although of course, as he's admitted himself, it may have been morally wrong.

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Date: Thurs, Nov 16, 2000 at 03:52:14 (GMT)
From: Tim Miller
Email: None
To: Sir Dave
Subject: Me too! But just once
Message:
I have never been so excited about service than the time I was selling pictures for DLM at the Kissimee (isn't this boring) Festival. I think it was 1979. It was the first Kissimee event in any case, not the midnight darshan one. Every day, faithfully, I would 'report' for my service at the booth. Gosh it was easy. I think all toll I was able to steal about 120.00 dollars. That really helped with the gas money for the ride home. And yes, I definately didn't buy that 'He's the Lord crap.' I can't believe so many of you did.
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Date: Thurs, Nov 16, 2000 at 12:42:46 (GMT)
From: Sir Dave
Email: sirdavid12@hotmail.com
To: Tim Miller
Subject: I was there
Message:
but I didn't want to buy any of your pictures because I had been revolted by the spectacle of the Lord with his flowery string vest on. Ah, if only we had struck up a conversation, you would have made me feel much better.

I thought that everybody there was seeing Maharaji as the Lord and I was the only one seeing a fat, ugly bloke in a string vest.

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Date: Tues, Nov 14, 2000 at 05:25:51 (GMT)
From: JTF
Email: None
To: Sir Dave
Subject: My life of crime in Divine Sales
Message:
That's really funny. This tells me that even then you knew somehow that rawat was no Jesus. Just imagine stealing from God.
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Date: Mon, Nov 13, 2000 at 11:34:19 (GMT)
From: Patrick
Email: None
To: gerry
Subject: How about some credit where credit's due Gerry?
Message:
I think you are a big bullshit artist who is trying to cover his ass in case the shit hits the fan on goober's frauduent aquisition of wealth.

Bullshit Artist - Hardly! What he has said has rung truer, and been more interesting and substantial, than anything anyone else has said for a long time on this forum. It sounds to me like Gerry may not have read all of what Dettmers wrote lately. I can't believe anyone who did could say this.

Mike says that he doesn't know of illegal goings on. Why assume he is lying to 'cover his ass'? That's an extreme judgement with no proof. Anyway even if he is concerned to preserve his interests to a large extent (and he has admitted that) he has hardly been shy and retiring about his criticism of Maharaji. He has actually been fiercely critical of Maharaji - this doesn't smack of someone primarily concerned with covering their ass to me.

I understood that Mike said that he doesn't know of illegal goings on but says he acknowledges that Maharaji's money mainly comes from premies. He is very critical of the way that Maharaji's aquisition of wealth is now explained by EV and the morality of it etc. What's the matter with that? Sounds pretty honest to me. It's in Mike's interest not to break his legal contract and I would expect him not to do so.

I sort of understand why some may feel extremely sensitive and hostile about all this but I think this anger against Dettmers is excessive and misdirected. To constantly berate Michael Dettmers seems to serve no useful purpose since he has actually been very forthcoming.

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Date: Mon, Nov 13, 2000 at 14:48:28 (GMT)
From: gerry
Email: None
To: Patrick
Subject: OK Patrick, but...
Message:
I hardly think anyone is 'constantly berating' dettmers, the opposite is more likely. The same for 'excessive and misdirected anger.'

I think it is funny that people believe thaat the main architect of goober's financial empire and his 'personal manager' for fifteen years had no knowledge of financial wrongdoings. This is laughable in the extreme. I can just about see him writing this latest stuff with his lawyer looking over his shoulder.

And of course there's the unresolved issue of his 'college degree' from Western Kennedy and his bullshit resume as well as his bullshit business. The guy's made of bullshit if you ask me. Carefully constructed and well spoken bullshit, but bullshit non-the-less.

So dettmers, just how big was your hush money payoff ???

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Date: Mon, Nov 13, 2000 at 14:48:01 (GMT)
From: Jean-Michel
Email: None
To: Patrick
Subject: What's illegal has always been done by individuals
Message:
and not by EV as far as I know.

Everything has always been done to 'protect' Rawat. I've been part of seminars with one of EV's intl lawyers (V Ciulio), and he's always been very adamant on this very point.

When there was anything illegal to be done, that was premies responsibility, and EV had nothing to do with it.

I've been part of some illegal money tranfers from France to the US. Nothing to do with EV of course ....

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Date: Mon, Nov 13, 2000 at 15:12:36 (GMT)
From: Hal
Email: None
To: Jean-Michel
Subject: What's illegal has always been done by individuals
Message:
Yes indeed,

Milky Cole was apparently very successful at fundraising and the fact that it was from cocaine dealing, using willing premies was overlooked.

I have no proof on this story , before it is demanded but I trusted my source at the time.

hal

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Date: Mon, Nov 13, 2000 at 17:37:11 (GMT)
From: Happy
Email: None
To: Hal
Subject: What's illegal has always been done by individuals
Message:
I also have memories of situations when individuals were told to do 'illegal' transactions in order to cover Rawat's ass. There are plenty of examples - starting from the ill-famed diamond smuggling into India in 1972. Quite often, it was a question of illegal money transfers from one country to another.

And, while we were premies, we did not think there was anything wrong with it. We felt it was ok, as long as it helped the Perfect Hamster's work.

That's why I asked Michael about the Swiss bank accounts in the first place, some weeks ago. The obvious need for Swiss bank accounts being when you want to make transactions untraceble.

Anyway, there is an important distinction between illegal and immoral activities. As somebody said above, whether something is illegal or not is to be determined by judge and jury, not by this forum. When Michael says he does not know about illegal transactions, I take it as what he is saying is that he at least has not done anything illegal. (Surely, he must know about for example the diamond smuggling in 1972, which actually went to court in India, and about other illegal transfers from one country to another, before his time as Rawat's economy advisor.) Personally, I leave it at that. I guess that was part of his job, to see to it that Rawat's activities could stand a little scrutiny, as long as he was Rawat's advisor.

I appreciate his input, and welcome him to the forum. He has said explicitly that he is not proud of all the things he did as a big honcho. That's enough for me. I hope his example will make other honchos come out in the open, as well.

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Date: Mon, Nov 13, 2000 at 05:02:44 (GMT)
From: Stonor
Email: stonor21@hotmail.com
To: gErRy
Subject: something's hinky with you dettmers...
Message:
Put the 'nothing illegal' as 'nothing'illegal'' and accept that this is the reality of big money multinational corporations - nothing is 'illegal' until it has been established 'by law' as such - accountants just do their job as well as they can with the loopholes they are provided with and in the paid service of their employers.

Have you read Bucky Fuller's 'Grunch'('87, but still lots of relevance)? Or how about Leguinn - 'Acceptance is the only power.'

Please email me your new email address.

Stonor

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Date: Mon, Nov 13, 2000 at 15:44:03 (GMT)
From: Cynthia
Email: None
To: Gerry
Subject: If I had a non-disclosure agreement...
Message:
I don't think I would ignore it and tell all. I would protect myself and family from probable lawsuits.

Gerry, I understand your anger, I have felt it about the honchos around Maharaji, too. But a separation agreement is a legal document.

Sure, I'd like to know what the severance pay was, but I think demanding that Michael disclose that is unfair. Michael told us he did get one, and has revealed and confirmed so much here. M owes all of us...are we going to get $$? I don't think so.

Because Michael calls himself an ex-premie, has had correspondence from EV and has published it here, you know that they are watching every word he writes. I think that's good.

What I'm angry about is the yacht and the alleged newly acquired aircraft. I want to know more about THAT.

Be well,
Cynthia

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Date: Mon, Nov 13, 2000 at 18:54:39 (GMT)
From: Disculta
Email: None
To: Cynthia
Subject: Hinky winky?
Message:
Michael Dettmers has, as mentioned above, given some of the most interesting and non-ranting condemnation of MJ's activities anywhere on this website. I think it is quite unfair to make him the object of projected anger which belongs elsewhere. Some people are more successful and skilled and wealthy than others, and Michael Dettmers is certainly not stopping my success or anyone else's.

People (I mean exes) whom I invite to this Forum often complain that it's too full of people blaming MJ for what isn't working in their lives, years later. Actually, I find myself clearly empathizing with both sides of this line -- I do blame him for certain things that have made my life difficult, and I also take responsibility for my choices and I am moving on, quite successfully. I find it helpful and also funny to 'go both ways' on this. I don't find it helpful to apply the same blame game to Michael or other premies or former premies. I see myself too clearly in their actions and behaviors, albeit in my little scaled down ways. And they never claimed to be perfect or asked me to give the reins of my life to them, and they would take care of me.

Someone did, though, and I think this grants a lot of license to haul him over the carpet!

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Date: Mon, Nov 13, 2000 at 19:35:18 (GMT)
From: gerry
Email: None
To: Disculta
Subject: guess you haven't been around very long
Message:
People (I mean exes) whom I invite to this Forum often complain that it's too full of people blaming MJ for what isn't working in their lives, years later.

This is crapola. Who, what, when? Most people here are very successful as far as I can determine.

You know, I was just thinking the other day, I've TOTALLY accomplished what I've desired for years and have been living my ideal life for at least five years. Could things get better? Sure. Will I feel different about my life later on? Possibly.

Everyone measures success in their own terms. I certainly don't blame or credit goober for anything in my present life. I don't hear anyone complaining in this manner here either. Sure, they regret the years that their cult enslavemnt wasted, who wouldn't, but most have truly 'moved on' and gotten a life as far as I can tell.

As far as dettmers, I'm not at all angry with him. Not at all. I just don't trust him. After all, he knew goober was 'just an ordinary mortal' as early as 1974 and he continued presenting him as something other than that. And he bailed out with a golden parachute when things no longer suited him.

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Date: Mon, Nov 13, 2000 at 23:42:51 (GMT)
From: gerry
Email: None
To: all
Subject: OK maybe I' m just jealous
Message:
Maybe michael deserved the dough after all his years of faithful and effective, ah, er, service. And I'm sure he did a damn good job.

So what if he bailed with a golden umbrella? And didn't we all get out when it 'no longer suited us?'

Ward?

Yes dear...

Do you think you were a little rough on the beaver last night?

I'll see you at five, dear...

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Date: Tues, Nov 14, 2000 at 00:16:42 (GMT)
From: Cynthia
Email: None
To: gerry
Subject: Gerry, I' m just jealous too::o))
Message:
Hi gerry,

I'm extremely envious of not getting a golden parachute. Twice.

I slaved as a child for my father (one of his sadist pleasures), and will I inherit anything? Nada.

I slaved for Guru Maharaj Ji consistently for years until my health gave out, I lost my spirituality, my ambition. Will I get a pension, severance pay, or golden parachute? Nooope.

Does it piss me off. YESSSSSS!!! Very much.

If I could sue somebody I would. However, I have no legal ability to do so. It's the way of the world. It's the way of insidious cults, like Guru Maharaj Ji's. Sant Ji, Rawat...bottom feeder. You know, bottom feeders get the best nutrients. I have a beautiful koi tank and they suck the gravel...they are well fed, but they take everything off of the bottom and they're beautiful. It's a strange analogy, but it's true.

Yuck, I feel like I'm sounding like goomraji. See? I'm mad that his words and 'speak' is still engrained. His speak. That pisses me off.

Our golden parachute is all neatly allocated for goomraji's high LA lifestyle. What can I do? Nothing.

Is it fair? Absolutely not.

So rage on gerry, I am no one to stop or discourage you. It's your right to have your feelings and opinions. Keep on posting them!

I have a question for Michael Dettmers: did you receive a salary while you were in the position of managing Maharaji's financial matters? Can you say how much?

You keep posting too, Michael. It's both appreciated and insightful.

Be well, Gerry,
Cynthia

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Date: Tues, Nov 14, 2000 at 20:15:37 (GMT)
From: cq
Email: None
To: Cynthia and Gerry
Subject: Golden parachute: - is that as useful as ...
Message:
... a chocolate fireguard?
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Date: Mon, Nov 13, 2000 at 19:49:31 (GMT)
From: Selene
Email: None
To: gerry
Subject: what strikes me as weird
Message:
Is how everyone on this forum addresses Michael with a question by (usually) starting a thread and formally asking him.
He doesn't just talk in threads, he is asked to answer, kinda like we used to raise our hands to ask M a question.
Sorry Michael I know I am addressing you in the third party here and that is rude but.. hey I didn't wanna start a new thread :)
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Date: Mon, Nov 13, 2000 at 19:54:35 (GMT)
From: gerry
Email: None
To: Selene
Subject: what strikes me as weird
Message:
Yupper. I noticed that too, Selene. Now THAT pisses me off.

All Hail King dettmers !!!

Still the PAM

Yeck

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Date: Mon, Nov 13, 2000 at 20:31:38 (GMT)
From: Lotus Eater
Email: None
To: gerry
Subject: The smell of evasion
Message:
Any premie who has had even the remotest participation in the activities of elan vital has come across the legal doublespeak barrier. A bit like a mini version of the 'x-rating': have you sufficient intelligence to be able to talk legal and act devotee? Can you master the mental gymnastics of such apparent anomalies as 'Ivory's Rock Conference Centre belongs to a company whose main client is Elan Vital, therefore Elan Vital has some say in the development of the facility. Mr Rawatt, sometimes known affectionately as Maharaji by his students, you ask? Oh he is a guest speaker invited to attend this event.' and 'Amaroo belongs to the Master, you may not move a rock without his permission'.

On the subject of money, I guess one would hope that someone with intimate knowledge of the process of making the financial activities legal and socially acceptable, would be able to twitch a few blankets. For instance, money used for the hamsters personal expenses coming out of funds raised by ev as registration for an event, at some point this has to be cleaned up on paper, as it would be illegal and improper.

It seems the IRS has been interested enough to do more than one audit. It's a pity they didn't have some inside help.

I do, however, think there are more factors that determine what we write here than a simple premie reflex of protecting Maharaji. I have good friends whose love and friendship I value deeply, friends who have felt hurt, angry and betrayed by what I have written here.

I, like so many of us here, have walked an interestingly delicate path of seeking the deprogramming I need, of caring about the experiences of others, of making sense of my own experience, whilst attempting not to hurt or betray those I love.

Damn that bloody parrot and his stinking birdshit. Actually, I wish to mount a defence for parrots. They are beautiful, wonderfully colourful, have very gentle natures, and are one of the funniest comics in the birdworld. That's out in the garden, of course, not neurotically ripping their feathers out as they attempt to imitate the sounds of the idiot human they have bonded with, who doesn't seem capable of having good satisfying sex with them.

Oops, went off at a tangent there, regards, Lesley the Primate!

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Date: Mon, Nov 13, 2000 at 20:36:35 (GMT)
From: Selene
Email: None
To: Lotus Eater
Subject: good tangent LE
Message:
I didn't take such a mild course. I have alientated all the premies I know. But I spent my 80's cult years making new non premie friends and I had a chance to see the difference in the quality of friendship. My best friend voted for Bush and she is not giving an ounce to me about my political opinions but we are still friends and I think we always will be. I'm astounded she thinks this way but it isn't like 'you either believe M is god or you don't'
and so life goes on. I liked your post a LOT. once again this place makes me see how I am so glad I got out.
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Date: Mon, Nov 13, 2000 at 20:21:40 (GMT)
From: Selene
Email: None
To: gerry
Subject: hi gerry, it doesn't really piss me off
Message:
But it does seem odd. Reminds me of a post I made last week regarding the authority issues with premies and ex's alike.
Not all, but some. Me included!
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Date: Mon, Nov 13, 2000 at 01:09:32 (GMT)
From: maxwell smart
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: do you think the guru stole my schtik?
Message:
Do people remember the tv show 'Get Smart',
featuring Maxwell Smart and agent 99?

During every show, Max would state some of his outrageous powers and accomplishments, always in a series of three, either to some arch enemy or to his friend agent 99.
Generally, they were quite outrageous, and the high point of the show.
They would always begin with the most outrageous, to something quite a bit less outrageous, to something absurdly small...

Something like this:

I singlehandedly saved the world from communism.
(Reply-I find that hard to believe..)

Would you believe that I served in the US marine corps?
(Reply-I still find that hard to believe...)

Would you believe that I got kicked out of the cub scouts?
(Reply-usually just a perplexed stare from the other person)

It occurred to me today that the hamster is lot like Maxwell Smart.
Does anyone else see the similarities, or have a set of three to contribute?

How about:

M-I swear on the holy bible I will bring peace to this world!
(Reply-I find that hard to believe...)

M-Would you believe that you'll get enlightenment from squeezing your eyeballs and sticking your thumbs in your ears while leaning on a board screwed into an old table leg that you got from divine sales?
(Reply-I still find that hard to believe...)

M-Would you believe that I once meditated for a half hour without falling asleep?
(Reply-perplexed stare, or maybe a bolie shrie!

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Date: Mon, Nov 13, 2000 at 03:01:14 (GMT)
From: The Chief
Email: None
To: maxwell smart
Subject: Wait for the 'Cone of Silence' you fool! (nt)
Message:
nt
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Date: Mon, Nov 13, 2000 at 00:50:46 (GMT)
From: la-ex
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: Michael Dettmers-what's your personal opinion on?
Message:
Michael-I'd like to thank you for the revealing descriptions of so much of the behind the scenes stuff that went on during the 70's and 80's,both in the organization and in the private life around maharaji...it continues to help many of us sort out our lives and how we got so misled by maharaji and the people around him....

For instance, I remember when I saw his wife Marilyn lecturing all of us at a satsang in Denver in the late 70's about not smoking dope, because of the negative impact it could have on maharaji and his work if we got caught (her exact words were these: if 2 catholics get caught smoking a joint, nothing happens.If 2 premies get caught smoking a joint, a huge newspaper article comes out proclaiming 'Guru's followers caught with drugs', with plenty of references to the possibilities of connections to the guru.)That's fair enough...I actually agree with her reasoning and perspective.
But now I understand that while she was lecturing all of us about dope, that she, maharaji and the x-crew were all getting stoned and drunk at the residence, night after night...

This is especially galling to me, as I helped start a community at that time, and I started by going out and giving satsang at drug clinics and swithboards(hotline services that were popular in the 70's), and would always tell them that the key to getting past drug and alcohol use was through meditation, with you know who as the master! The point was that with knowledge you could get so high off of existence alone, you wouldn't even need drugs! (on and on and on...you know the whole rap...)

Anyway, this is laughable now, but there are more serious questions I have...some about specific issues, some more general in nature...so here goes, if you're up for responding...

1)What do you think kept so many of us involved in such a devoted manner for so long?
How could we, and especially the PAMS (who saw so much contradictory and hypocritical behaviour)not see through so much of this sooner?

2)Wasn't there talk about maharaji's drunkenness and drug use, especially since it seemed so out of control, amongst people around him?
Were there discussions amongst good friends about the hypocrisy of all this? And what to do about it?
Didn't people feel guilty about going out into communities and and talking it up for maharaji when they knew that in his real life he was so screwed up?
Were you the only one to confront maharaji about his behaviour?
Did his wife confront him?
Did he get counseling, or would he even listen to a therapist or counselor? (He generally seems to be extremely anti-psychology/therapy, and has indicated that in his talks)
What do you think is the main reason for his drinking problem?

3)When you said earlier that maharaji didn't seem to care about his work or his own life, what behaviours of his caused you to think this way?
Did you ever have an in depth talk about this with him, as someone who cared about him?

4)When you said that 'night after night' at the residence maharaji would be getting stoned with the premies, and that you have seen him 'countless' times inebriated at different places...
Was this over a short period of time, like 6 months-one year, where he may have been in turmoil over a specific situation in his life, and then gave it up? Or was this behaviour that has gone on continuously for years and years?

The reason I ask this is because a number of premies have shrugged these revelations off by stating that 'we all go through tough times' once or twice in our lives, and it just shows that maharaji is human...
That may be the case, but having a drinking problem for years and years, and not caring about his life (I'm not sure what that meant exactly) is another story.
The point is, as I told these premies, is that they are recommending a lifetime of dependency on maharaji to aspirants, and everyone should know if the captain of the ship is 1)just like us, and weathers a tough storm once in awhile....or 2)a drunk...

5)Are there other former PAMS that you know that would shed more light on this situation? Would you contact them?

I'm not recommending or requesting that you name them, or that they identify themselves on the forum, but I do feel that the more we know, the better off we are...

I believe that the more that is posted here, the more pressure it puts on maharaji to come clean and level with all of us...those people from the past, those presently involved, and those who may be considering getting into this in the future...

And I also believe that in the long run, this reconciliation and healing process can help all of us, including the one who needs it the most...

Thanks Michael,
La-ex

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Date: Thurs, Nov 16, 2000 at 20:25:20 (GMT)
From: shp
Email: None
To: la-ex
Subject: Michael Dettmers-what's your personal opinion on?
Message:
Outrageous.

I read in the book 'Marijuana, Magic and Religion' that this useful herb, Cannabis Sativa (Sativa means 'Useful'...lettuce also has the word 'Sativa' in its actual name) has been used 'from time immemorial', to coin a phrase...

The Temple of Solomon, the very Temple in Jersusalem stained with the blood of women and children from many places around the world to this very day in the name of God, once had huge urns of hashish buring in the outer courts. Temple servants would open and close the tremendous Temple doors to act as a bellows to circulate the smoke.

Above the door, the inscription read something like:
'A Man Must Change His Mind Before Approaching His Maker'.

They knew what it was for and they used it righteously.
It was originally used, treated and respected as a sacrament.
Crikey, they didn't teach THAT in MY Sunday School! Wonder why..

It, like the rest of Creation, was ALL created to be a sacrament. Sacred. Man has made it and many other aspects of the Creation into something profane. Anything can be abused. Treating the causes of abuse in the abusers is smarter and more accurate a move than to ban the sacrament. And by the way, how does one define 'abuse'? Hurtng others is abuse, for sure. Being a threat to society is abuse for sure. But who is to say what is too much for someone. Everyone has different appetites and different tolerances. Two beers and I could go nappytime right on the barstool. Others do six-packs regularly can handle it. So 'abuse' has to be defined.

And by the way, I don't see wine, which is used as a sacrament throughout the Judeo-Christian world and beyond, being made illegal and more folks die from abuse in the form of drunkenness on the road and elsewhere than from somebody listening to music in the privacy of their own home and doing a bud instead of a Bud.

Like you la-ex, I can relate to their concerns of not being busted in favor of a higher cause, namely to advance the spreading of Knowledge in a world that is upsidedown in its relationship to Nature (including herb), and opting to not make that the issue that the media would obviously bring front and center with full floods and spots, 27 glossies with circles and arrows on the back, with parapgraphs 'splainin' what was ON the 27 glossies....I mean.....If he had said don't do it 'cause it's not worth forfeitng the mission of spreading Knowledge, that's one thing. But he condemned its use...or Marolyn did, so maybe in some books that doesn't count....

One thing Maharaji said sticks in my head like a hot poker right now. He told us to be immaculate legally. I had another teacher once who used weed and was straight about it. He was immaculate in being truthful and straight with his words and actions being one, his behavior was in accordance with his teaching, which I happen to admire and respect. I think that's a heavy and courageous thing, even if it broke a bad law. Civilized Man's progress and evolution has been a series of breaking bad laws and making better ones, never without resistance from the status quo. That seems to be a path one can follow, to use the light we have been given to better our lot, whether it's on a school board, in the home, at work, in the country, on any level to raise it up and take it to the next phase of evolution or R&D for you corporates types. I know some here question Jesus Christ and just exactly what it was he did when he was here, but one thing is damn sure...He did something so remarkable that folks are focussing on it to this day. We can hash out the details later, Mickey and others. Getting back to Stephen, he even did time, 3 years in Tennessee State Prison for it. I think he took the fall for someone else. He honored his Mother and Father who made it and provided it. And he questioned his Uncle Sam which is his birthright and ours (for US citizens). I respect that kind of move, that kind of committment to truth. Stephen's book, Rendered Infamous, tells the story, but I ain't selling it here or anything, it's just some good reading.

If the Marijuana laws are bad, then they need to be changed.
We live in a free country and have the right of redress of grievances. It is happening all over the world and in many U.S. states as we sit before our computers here and now.

How many of us reading keep it a secret in favor of not being busted in a world turned upside down? Only difference is we don't go before thousands of other people and give direction to abstain before we ourselves light up. The way I see it, unless someone can be totally truthful in the here and now, they can't BE in the here and now. Being truthful to the core is the price of the ticket to the here and now, Heaven, the world of truth...Heaven means truth from the Greek. Check me on this, will ya, Brother Mickey?

It's not the weed that gets you high, it's the company you are in and the level of truth and agreement and where you are at inside that gets you high. Reading, hearing, writing and speaking in the truth gets me higher than the best weed in the world shared with paranoid, greedy, selfish, faithless people. I know of whence I speak. Something gnaws at me as I write....a Master
can do ANYTHING and is not subject to even his own rules, which he can change on a dime. I mean, hurricanes clean the atmosphere and I believe that is one of their major puroses or positive attributes. They also kill millions of folks all over the world.
Does that mean we should not live near the coasts or that some cherubim neubies in the Nature Department of Heaven don't have a handle on it yet, or what or that those souls had karma to pay or WHAT? Now I don't mean any disprespect to anyone anywhere anytime. But I am free to express, ask, say, declare, anything I want without fear of any damn thing. People had to fight, bleed and die so I could say whatever the hell I want to say without fear of a knock on the door in the middle of the night and a one-way trip to the gulag. Are we not all destined to be Masters of ourselves once we have learned calmness and love in the face of everything, and know when to put on the face of anger to make a point otherwise impossible to make?

The dirty big secret is that those who are trying to eradicate the herb from the planet, or just keep it for themselves and make it illegal for everybody else, are desecrating it and its Source for personal self-aggrandizement. The fuel, fabric, pharmaceutical, medical, paper, building material and food industries are extremely powerful in a worldly sense. They, like little children who reject their parent's help and want to do the 'their way', are literally destroying the planet in their arrogance to do it their way. For what? For love. For love of what? For love of money. And the love of money, my friends, is the root of all evil.

Whew.....I hope you feel as good reading this as I do writing it.

Some people convicted of murder do less jailtime than some folks caught with a bag of weed. I know one of the Big Ten says not to murder, but I see nothing that says not to eat, smoke, or ingest in any way anything designed by my Father God, grown and nurtured by my Mother Earth, but demonized and prohibited by my Uncle Sam.
Quite the contrary, in Genesis we are given our MThe word meal means just that...'Meal' is ground grains and herb seeds, hence cornmeal, oatmeal, wheatmeal, hempmeal, etc. YUM!
(Yum, that is, if you know how to cook! Otherwise, you will be turned off to the whole idea).

This is not just about the smoking of weed, my friends. I have studied this subject for many years and from many angles. Cortez took Amaranth, another super multi-use plant provided by our Creator, away from another culture he sought to subjegate, the Aztecs. (We are all not suits, and we have all been here before -CSNW).

The Cannabis Sativa plant was a very special gift from our Creator. Literally hundreds of thousands of uses were known 'since time immemorial' and more recently were published in the 1937-38 Popular Science Magazine article entitled 'The New Billion Dollar Crop'. From paper to fabric to food (seeds are 25% protein, oil has 100% EFAs, GLA's, Omegas 3-6-9), to building material to fuel to medicine to a myriad of other worldly necessities, hemp is a real blessing to the human race. Those opposed to its use would have us all think the exact opposite. But it is those who oppose who are doing the harm, the evil to this world and making a handful of abusers the red herring (Reefer Madness) in their argument and effort to eradicate hemp from the earth and replace it with synthetic substances that must be manufactured in factories and therefore supply-controlled and profitted from by manipulating the supply and demand. I heard that a woman has to pay $17K for seven treatments of a cancer drug that was researched by a pharmaceutical company at no expense to them, all the R&D paid for with our tax dollars.
Follow the money. Georgia Pacific, one of the biggest timber mills, is sitting in on meetings with the Hemp Industries of America. They see the handwriting on the wall and somebody over there doesn't want to go down in history as being responsible for the final destruction of our atmosphere by cutting down so many trees.

So anyway, I cut and pasted stuff all over this post as I remembered things to say and was so inspired, so it may not read like Shakespeare, but it all true. My heart feels good when I tell the truest truth I know and don't water anything down.
I just wanted to share some of me that has been sort of hanging in the background ever since we first had the pleasure of meeting each other. Hi! You are my brothers and sisters, as are the ones who call themselves premies. There is not a God for premies and a God for ex-premies, at least not in my cosmology. I appeal to the Maker of us all, whether He and/or She or They (elohim), or a Scientist in some laboratory observing what we call the known universe including ourselves in a petri dish, to bring clarity to all our minds and truth to all our hearts, so much that it pours out of us when we speak and we feel the intoxicating and natural effects of being in the presence of God MOST High, as it is written.

Quote from and old National Geographic during an interview with
a member of a 'primitive' Pygmy tribe:

Q: What is God?
A: God is what comes out of your mouth when you speak.

Q: Where do we go when we die?
A: (Pointing at stars in the night sky) Those are our brothers and sisters who have gone before us.

May our hearts beat truly free and easy and may we hear God when we hear each other. Peace.

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Date: Thurs, Nov 16, 2000 at 21:45:32 (GMT)
From: shp
Email: None
To: shp
Subject: foul up at end of my last post / correction
Message:
For some reason, my post came out messed up.
At the end, I was relating about an interview with a pygmy in National Geographic. The first Q was 'what is God'?
A: God is what comes out of your mouth when you speak.
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Date: Mon, Nov 13, 2000 at 01:15:56 (GMT)
From: Marianne
Email: None
To: la-ex
Subject: Spot on, la-ex
Message:
Excellent questions. I hope that Michael is able to answer you. These inquiries will help us to advance our understanding of what was happening with M and the ashram/Denver machinations too.

Good work, la-ex. Thanks.
Marianne

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Date: Sun, Nov 12, 2000 at 17:19:57 (GMT)
From: Rick
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: OT - Florida Orders Countywide Recount
Message:
http://dailynews.yahoo.com/h/ap/20001112/ts/eln_florida_recount_84.html
Sunday November 12 2:35 AM ET
Fla. Orders Countywide Recount

By KARIN MEADOWS, Associated Press Writer

WEST PALM BEACH, Fla. (AP) - Palm Beach County officials ordered an
extraordinary countywide recount, by hand, of the more than 425,000 votes
cast in the presidential election for Al Gore (news - web sites) and George
W. Bush (news - web sites).

Gore added 36 votes and Bush lost three in a machine recount of Palm
Beach County in Florida's disputed presidential balloting. A hand count of
selected precincts turned up enough errors in the election night vote to
prompt county election officials to order a complete recount by hand. The
vote was 2-1.

Election officials said their exhaustive manual recount found numerous
differences from the machine count. Palm Beach County official Carol
Roberts said the errors point to potentially 1,900 errors county wide - more
than the total margin between Bush and Gore statewide.

At stake is no less than the presidency, since Florida will deliver 25 electoral
votes.

The new machine tabulation, the third in this populous Democratic-leaning
county, gave Gore 269,732 vote, or an add of 36 votes, and Bush 152,951,
or minus three.

County election officials will meet again Monday to discuss further action. It
was not clear when the labor intensive examination of ballots in all 531
precincts would begin.

``This clearly would affect the national vote,'' said Carol Roberts, a county
commissioner and a member of the canvassing commission.

County Judge Charles Burton said that he wanted to obtain an advisory
opinion from the secretary of state before proceeding with a hand count.

A lawyer for the Republican Party (news - web sites), Mark Wallace,
objected to a further manual recount.

``It has been pandemonium today,'' he said. ``We vigorously lodge our
protest and plead with you not to put the county through that.''

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Date: Tues, Nov 14, 2000 at 18:42:59 (GMT)
From: Scott T.
Email: None
To: Rick, et al
Subject: OT - No fig leaf for the FL Secretary of State
Message:
Hi:

The judge in Tallahassee just disabused the Florida Secretary of State of her fig leaf. He specifically issued an opinion that although she has discretion, she does not have the discretion to ignore late returns arbitrarily. Her argument was that she had no discretion, so this really leaves her politically exposed. Don't know whether this will go to the Florida Supreme Court, and I'm not really qualified to comment on the legal aspects. Perhaps Joe would like to proffer his opinion. But my reading of the political ramifications is this:

The argument for not accepting the late hand counted returns after 5:00 tonight is thin. If she doesn't accept them her political career is over. It will be seen by the public as a naked attempt to steal the election without giving all Florida voters who cast their ballots in good faith a chance to be counted. Furthermore, from a legal standpoint, I think that if she does chose to not accept them on some thin justification the Gore people can file suit later with a fairly good chance of arguing that her decision *was* arbitrary. This would compel their acceptance. So, this looks like a short term victory for the Bush people, but in actuality it leaves them with no real alternative at this point except to push for a statewide manual count in order to offset the losses they'll get in Palm Beach.

One more thing. The judge also reiterated that the County Election Board has the discretion to make the call on whether to have a full manual count. The argument of 2 Palm Beach commissioners this morning who voted to delay the manual count was based on their opinion that they did not have that discretion, and that they had to await an advisory from the Attorney General and the Secretary of State, and that they did not have discretion about whether he ignore the Secretary's advisory. So this ruling also removes their fig leaf. As a further incentive, there are monetary fines that can be imposed on the election board members for late filing if they are deemed to be unnecessarily tardy.

Finally, is another suit pending that will clarify the issue of what the actual guidelines to the county boards mean, whether they can avoid a manual recount if there are no specific problems with the machinery. My guess is that this last fig leaf will be removed from them, and they'll be left with the guideline that they must conduct a manual count if, in their opinion, the outcome of the count might materially effect the outcome of the election... which it clearly might... because it clearly *will*.

My conclusion is that this is a nearly complete victory for the Gore Campaign. but they'll have to exercise some political savvy and caution in order to take advantage of it. The public wants these manual counts done, so any politician who stands in their way will not only end up careerless... but the counts will probably be admitted anyway at some later date, as long as the delay is not extraordinary.

This is a mix of politics and law, so I'll defer to any lawyerly types who interpret the legal ramifications differently.

--Scott

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Date: Wed, Nov 15, 2000 at 00:33:49 (GMT)
From: Sir Dave
Email: None
To: Scott T.
Subject: OT - No fig leaf for the FL Secretary of State
Message:
What many British commentators (and myself) find repugnant and ridiculous is the obvious political bias of judges in America. A judge is supposed to be impartial and cannot really operate as a judge without being impartial.

So I would say that America has a corrupt legal system. Many people here think the same.

But most ridiculous of all is the fact that America is using 1950s voting technology which is prone to massive error. People the world over are shaking their heads in disbelief as the World's most powerful democracy is shown to be as backward as a third world country.

Hopefully, after this election fiasco, America might catch up with the rest of the world.

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Date: Wed, Nov 15, 2000 at 02:00:11 (GMT)
From: Scott T.
Email: None
To: Sir Dave
Subject: OT - No fig leaf for the FL Secretary of State
Message:
David:

Everyone is biased, as Karl Mannheim observed. We sometimes get a glimpse of our own bias, but usually not. One of the things that concerns me about this situation is that if Katherine Harris decides not to accept the hand counted tabulations that are to be submitted late then the issue will go to the Florida Supreme Court, which is 6/7ths Democrat. I think an objective judge would listen to the arguments of both sides and determine that the Gore people simply have a better case, but that will never be seen as the reality. These judges can only be seen as 'impartial' if the rule against the Gore campaign. The issue right now rests in the impartial hands of Katherine Harris, and from the reaction of the Bush campaign they may not feel the have her in the bag. She may not want to rest her entire future on the possibility of a non-elected appointment to a Bush administration.

There are two points that carry some degree of weight that Bush could use. The notion that all hand counts are inaccurate just won't fly. However, I have heard that the Dade County canvassing board intends to apply an 'evolving' standard for determining when a punch is a vote. Someone needs to explain methodology to them, and quickly, if Gore wants these counts to stand up to scrutiny. You simply cannot have an 'evolving standard' and expect to have any sort of consistent result. I would not be surprised if the result were thrown out.

It is not such a problem if different counties apply different protocols, because as long as false positive errors are random they won't affect the margin of victory or loss for either side. And the only source of 'bias' is the bias toward finding actual intended votes. In other words, the tendency to find false votes only distorts the total, not the difference. However, if you don't stick to a single protocol you can't claim that false positive errors were unbiased, and a judge who knows anything about statistics would throw it out the results.

The remedy that has been proposed by the Bush people is to back up to the machine count. However, it is easy to demonstrate that 'false negatives' or actual votes that went uncounted, *are* biased. Therefore, the only fair remedy is to have a statewide manual count with a fixed protocol. The current handling of the cards may cause some new punches to appear, and in some cases these will invalidate actual votes by causing over-votes or double punches. Thus, handling the cards roughly can cause some further errors to occur, but they will be unbiased.

The methodological mistakes worry me a great deal. Beyond that, nearly all of the Bush claims that hand counts are inaccurate are specious.

I think Gore deserves to win, but the only real solution is to hand count the whole damn state. After all of this they may have to start over again completely, which would really make the country look foolish. I'd buy voting machine stock if I knew which company makes the damn things.

--Scott

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Date: Tues, Nov 14, 2000 at 00:27:11 (GMT)
From: Sir Dave
Email: None
To: Rick
Subject: What I find surprising
Message:
and if I were an American, alarming, is that the American President is usually elected to office before all the votes have been counted. If the postal ballots are taking a week to arrive from overseas then this means that it must be normal to disregard the overseas votes when declaring who has been voted in as president.

It's the principal of the thing I find wrong. While overseas votes may not make a difference in most presidential elections, it seems bad democratic form to actually declare the winner of the election without having counted the absentee ballots.

Taking this further, I remember when President Carter lost to Ronald Reagan, Carter conceded defeat while people were still voting on the west coast. He said it was the manly thing to do but I'd say it was the undemocratic thing to do.

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Date: Tues, Nov 14, 2000 at 02:51:41 (GMT)
From: Scott T.
Email: None
To: Sir Dave
Subject: What I find surprising
Message:
Dave:

You might have something. We're trying to figure out what happened to the 'vanishing voter' and this might be a clue. We say, essentially, 'Every vote counts, but not every vote will be counted.' The same could be said of this undervote. Something like 40,000 ballots in Cook County, of which approximately 5,000 are valid votes that did not register in the machine, and will therefore never be counted.

--Scott

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Date: Tues, Nov 14, 2000 at 01:51:47 (GMT)
From: Rick
Email: None
To: Sir Dave
Subject: What I find surprising
Message:
Yes, I see your point, Dave. Americans are very impatient and people don't want to wait a week to find out who won.
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Date: Mon, Nov 13, 2000 at 14:14:02 (GMT)
From: a0aji
Email: None
To: Rick
Subject: Harris says deadline will not be extended
Message:
Florida says it will Certify the vote tomorrow!

5 pm Tomorrow all counties must certify.

Catherine Harris

'Under no circumstances would the deadline be extended.'

[NOTE: above quotes are sound bytes transcribed without verification of spellings and are not necessarily verbatim]

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Date: Mon, Nov 13, 2000 at 02:39:25 (GMT)
From: G
Email: None
To: Rick
Subject: Jeb's Sec o State says she'll throw out late votes
Message:
'Counties Set to Sue as State Imposes Deadline

Recounts of Florida ballots could stop sooner rather than later if a state official is not blocked from forcing all counties to turn in their votes by Tuesday or face disqualification.'

See Florida to Demand Final Vote Tallies

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Date: Mon, Nov 13, 2000 at 05:59:51 (GMT)
From: G
Email: None
To: all
Subject: Massive Miami voter fraud ???
Message:
.
I don't know how accurate this is (if at all), but Bush Watch quotes the London Times as stating that the Gore camp alleges massive Miami voter fraud.

'THE FBI is being asked to investigate how thousands of mainly black supporters of Al Gore were given ballot papers that had allegedly already been marked for rival candidates. ...'

(click on Bush Watch above for more)

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Date: Mon, Nov 13, 2000 at 00:09:09 (GMT)
From: Sir Dave
Email: None
To: Rick
Subject: OT - Florida Orders Countywide Recount
Message:
I told them those punch hole ballots were no good. They'd be better off just using the old pencil 'cross in a box' ballot and handcounting all those. At least the result would be known by now.

But why count the whole country? Surely it's just Florida that's at stake.

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Date: Mon, Nov 13, 2000 at 03:20:31 (GMT)
From: Stonor
Email: None
To: Sir Dave
Subject: That depends ...
Message:
See Quebec, the last referendum for 'Sovereignty-Association' with Canada (1996?) - I don't think my vote was counted because I make my 'X' without completely lifting my pen off the paper - ie. there is usually a loop on the left - but it got even more ridiculous than that, in terms of disqualification. As the 'yes' to 'Sovereignty-Association' (independence of Quebec from Canada) did not win (by an extremely close margin), no one has bothered to effectively challenge the issue of biased counting ambiguities. All it takes is a few well placed suggested possibilities in the right company at the right time (ie. a coffee break from counting ballots) to encourage this kind of distorted judgement.

Like I say since living in the '3rd' world for a few years - it's all the same abuse and manipulation, it's just that we're more sophisticated and 'subtle' in the '1st' world.

I still have faith that 'Whatever-It-Is' rules the world in the end - beyond our petty perspectives, and that's a potential, only if more become aware of a more complete picture.

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Date: Mon, Nov 13, 2000 at 00:47:32 (GMT)
From: Jerry
Email: None
To: Sir Dave
Subject: Put on your glasses
Message:
That's county, Sir D, not country. You sure you're not really a yank, one of them oldtimers in Palm Beach?
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Date: Mon, Nov 13, 2000 at 01:12:17 (GMT)
From: Sir Dave
Email: None
To: Jerry
Subject: Put on your glasses
Message:
Finally my cover has been blown. I was never a premie, either. Got you guys fooled, eh? Who is this Maharishi, anyway?
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Date: Sun, Nov 12, 2000 at 18:28:34 (GMT)
From: Scott T.
Email: None
To: Rick
Subject: OT - Florida Orders Countywide Recount
Message:
Rick:

Palm Beach County officials ordered an
extraordinary countywide recount, by hand, of the more than 425,000 votes
cast in the presidential election for Al Gore (news - web sites) and George
W. Bush (news - web sites).

I believe this statement in innaccurate as well, if I understand the process. AFAIK everyone has confidence that the machine has counted the ballots correctly, in which a vote was cast, excluding double counts (overvote) and votes for Buchanan that might have been meant for Gore. Isn't it true that the only manual counts that are going on are of the ballots where no vote was cast (undervote) which amount to something like 10,000 in Palm Beach County? The point here is that this is not, strictly speaking, a 're-count' of these ballots so much as a 'first count' of ballots that may have been cast but were not recorded by the machine.

I also think you're correct and insightful about the issue regarding the margin of error. See my next post on that subject.

--Scott

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Date: Sun, Nov 12, 2000 at 18:46:01 (GMT)
From: Scott T.
Email: None
To: Scott T.
Subject: OT - Margin of Error and the Basic Problem
Message:
Rick, et al:

I think you are correct that the major definition of what's going on is that we effectively have a tie in FL, and that no one will be satisfied with the result until the margin victory is clearly outside that margin of error. There is another issue of disenfranchisement of voters in Palm Beach County, and possibly of some voters in a Bush favored county who appear to have overvoted for some reason, probably because the Presidential candidates were on two separate pages. But the basic problem is that by any objective standard of the intentions of Florida voters Bush will lose the election. It's a genuine dilemma:

Disregarding the disenfranchisement issue there is no issue to resolve the closeness of the vote that won't result in a Bush win. If they manually count the vote in Palm Beach, or in the whole of Florida, or have a re-vote in part or all of Florida analogous to a runoff that would normally occur to resolve a tie then Bush would clearly lose. About the only tie-breaker than might not make the election a foregone conclusion would be some form of a coin toss. They could even split the electoral votes in FL and Gore would still win.

So basically the only incentive that Bush has to deal right now is the contemplation of a really ugly presidency should he win his count case to suppress the manual vote, or the contemplation of a shadow presidency should he lose Florida, which he probably will. I see Gore's dilemma as almost equally profound, but his best course of action is to engineer some sort of compromise that gives both parties an even chance at winning. Strictly speaking he doesn't have to, because he'll probably win without that, but he'd have a genuinely ugly presidency. It turns my stomach to think about it.

Whoever offers a valid compromise, that is clearly not some sort of spin, will now be perceived as the statesman and will win ultimately no matter what the outcome of this election. Don't you think? Has this logic occurred to either of these dunderheads, do you suppose?

--Scott

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Date: Mon, Nov 13, 2000 at 21:19:14 (GMT)
From: Rick
Email: None
To: Scott T.
Subject: OT - Margin of Error and the Basic Problem
Message:
I don't know if offering a compromise that ultimately loses the election is worth anything. In the end, the stakes in this game are egotistical: Whoever goes down in history the most, wins. In order for that to happen, the presidency has to be won.

Being tactful and diplomatic at this point would have a temporary PR benefit but nothing longlasting. The loser here will just be a footnote in history, no matter how big of a footnote.

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Date: Mon, Nov 13, 2000 at 21:49:54 (GMT)
From: Scott T.
Email: None
To: Rick
Subject: OT - Jackson's Revenge
Message:
Rick:

I agree that a large part of the stakes are egotistical, but this is mitigated by public option. Consider a compromise that puts the odds at 50/50 but ensures a good presidency for the winner, and leaves the loser with enough credibility that he can run again. Put this against an odds of 60/40, but with the certainty of a deeply divided Congress bent on revenge and an unsupportive public. Maybe the likely winner won't compromise... but he does have some incentive to do so if he understand the principle of legitimation, or the 'right to govern.' 'Rules are rules' is a standard that's appropriate for a football game, but the winner just gets a trophy and goes home. He doesn't have to worry about governing afterward.

I'll give an example. You may know something about John Quincy Adams, who defeated Andrew Jackson in their first election in an 'electoral inversion.' The aftermath was a bitter and failed presidency, and JQA does not occupy a very prominent place in history. Four years later Andrew Jackson won the Presidency. The 'Jacksonian Period' is generally seen by historians as a classical 'Golden Age,' during which America really came into it's own as an economic and political force in the world, and a period that established the classic American values. Jackson was the first President elected as a Democrat. He is a far more prominent figure in American history than John Quincy Adams.

--Scott

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Date: Tues, Nov 14, 2000 at 01:34:14 (GMT)
From: Rick
Email: None
To: Scott T.
Subject: OT - Jackson's Revenge
Message:
I think I see your point, Scott. The lack of power to govern is definitely a consideration. However, that may be better than nothing, which is what I think either of these candidates have to look forward to if they lose, as far as another presidential bid.

Neither of these guys are that lovable or impeccible, even by their own parties' standards. Just by virtue of failing to carry this election without a big crisis, puts them at a disadvantage. I think the losing party will be looking for a fresh face or someone more impressive than these guys.

I know very little about Jackson and Adams, but it occurs to me that the world is much different place now, and the United States is a much different country. It's possible that *anyone* who becomes president for this term will have a big place in history, despite their ability to govern domestically.

The Middle-East will likely hold all sorts of surprises, and other places around the world. The president may play a significant role in those theaters.

Technology may also be a big star in the upcoming movie (the genome project, etc.) and the president may ride in its wake.

But even if one of these guys ends up like John Quicy Adams, and the other like Jackson, it's still a fact that we've heard of John Quincy Adams. Many people know his name, and most don't know he was a 'nobody' of presidents.

It could have been worse for Adams. He could have lost the election and never been heard from again.

Do you have any specific ideas for the type of 50/50 compromise you're suggesting?

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Date: Tues, Nov 14, 2000 at 03:10:27 (GMT)
From: Scott T.
Email: None
To: Rick
Subject: OT - Jackson's Revenge
Message:
Rick:

Do you have any specific ideas for the type of 50/50 compromise you're suggesting?

Well, Ed Rawlins the Republican political strategist says that they should establish an objective protocol, agree on a standard for referees, and do a manual count of all the undervotes in the state. You can ignore overvotes, and the infamous 'butterflies for Buchanan,' as well as all ballots that have been counted by the machines. There's no way to retrieve the miscast votes. This might be enough of a concession to attract Bush. You can ignore ballots that have already been counted, since 'false positives' are not a problem. The compromise is not so much for the candidates as for the voters, so that we can all have confidence in the result. Basically, it's as much like a coin toss as it's possible to get. When the overseas ballots are counted there won't be enough uncertainty left in the toss to induce anyone to agree, so the window of opportunity will have been lost.

--Scott

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Date: Sun, Nov 12, 2000 at 22:43:38 (GMT)
From: G
Email: None
To: Scott T.
Subject: the dilemma
Message:
I agree with you about the dilemma both face. Whoever wins will be viewed as an illegitimate president by many people, whereas if one bows out (or maybe just compromises) they will probably be viewed as the statesman. If there is a recession (imo likely) the winner will be blamed, I think Bush more so. The losing party could be galvanized for the next elections. So winning at this point could be a booby prize.

There's also the issue of who Bush will betray if he gets in, the religious right or the moderate republicans. IF he were shrewd he would betray the right wing. I've read about him having secret meeting with far-right groups.

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Date: Sun, Nov 12, 2000 at 19:25:12 (GMT)
From: gerry
Email: None
To: Scott T.
Subject: The Ultimate Conspiracy
Message:
OK. So this mess becomes more entangle with more states' results called into question. Nothing is resolved by January 20th. The Congress then picks a president. It could be any 'qualified' person. They pick Senator Jay Rockefeller.
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Date: Mon, Nov 13, 2000 at 13:04:36 (GMT)
From: Katie
Email: None
To: gerry
Subject: The REAL Conspiracy
Message:
Gerry, if there is no president by January 20th, the Speaker of the House (I am sorry, but I cannot remember his name) becomes president. Next in line after him is guess who: Strom Thurmond. Better pray that the Speaker stays healthy - snicker - since Strom seems to be immortal :).

.

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Date: Mon, Nov 13, 2000 at 14:45:09 (GMT)
From: Scott T.
Email: None
To: Katie
Subject: The REAL Conspiracy
Message:
Katie:

The Speaker is Dennis Hastert, who is generally considered to be competent and relatively even-handed. The problem is that acceptance of the Presidency may be contingent on his resignation from the House, so he might decline. Next in succession is Strom Thurmond, but he might decline as well. I don't know to whom the presidency devolves at that point. I'm sure Clinton would be willing to serve for awhile longer.

With the Florida Secretary of State's refusal to extend the deadline this morning, and the apparent strategy of the Republican referees in the manual count to delay every single ballot determination as long as possible, this election may have gone into an even uglier phase. I think the electorate may soon reach the point where they're just terminally disgusted with both of these candidates. Public opinion is about the only thing that can put pressure on these pygmies, but the media's tendency to just keep repeating the partisan spin of each side is keeping the public from being as informed as they might be.

The bottom line is that any genuinely fair resolution of the uncertainty involved in the ballot counting process would probably benefit the Democrats... since more Democrat votes were undercounted than Republican votes. This is due to the fact that the undervote in Republican counties is much smaller. That's why the Bush team never bothered to request manual counting in those counties. Machine recounts are calibrated to undercount the actual vote, which tends to bias the overall count in the direction opposite the 'real' winner. Different machines have different uncertainty rates, but the punch cards have the greatest.

Furthermore, even machine recounts will tend to correct for this undercounting because chards that were punched but still attached tend to fall out each time they're put through the machine. So recounts in other states where Bush is behind will only benefit him if he actually has more uncounted votes, and since he appears to be losing nationally his people figure that's unlikely. I think his threat to demand recounts in these other states is idle, thought that might be his only option if Gore wins Florida. They've already determined they're unlikely to win those states, and he'll pay a big price politically. He's already ahead a little bit in NM, so it'll be Gore who requests recounts there, if anyone.

So, Gore probably won the popular vote... and if ballot uncertainty were corrected he also probably won the electoral vote... even excluding those miscast votes in Palm Beach. Bush's innate insensitivity to the requirements of governance may actually be an advantage in the short run, because he'll be willing to be more ruthless in pursuit of his goals. Ironically he may be somewhat insulated from reprisal by the Greens, who have clearly diluted the 'liberal' vote and can be counted on also diluting any sense of outrage and reprisal. Republicans seem very willing to believe the Bush spin, and after initial resistance even Democrats seem to be less critical. I'm afraid someone on that campaign has our number and has mastered the 'littlebig lie.' We're just too apathetic to seriously stand in his way. This is not good.

--Scott

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Date: Mon, Nov 13, 2000 at 18:14:32 (GMT)
From: Katie
Email: None
To: Scott T.
Subject: The REAL Conspiracy
Message:
Scott, I was kidding about Strom becoming president - he is obviously not competent to serve even in his present office. I did think it was funny that he was second in line, and you have to take your humor where you can find it these days!

Re anger over incorrect ballot count - of course, people are angry! But you cannot blame this on either the Republicans OR the Democrats OR the Green party - it's a huge procedural error. And I really can't say what a 'fair' resolution would be - except I think it should be resolved by people in Florida without interference from the rest of the country (yeah, I know it's a Republican state).

I do not like the way Bush is handling it, and I think you'll find that a lot of other people feel the same way. (He'd be in a lot better shape if he would keep his mouth shut, to tell you the truth.) Also, I think the Green Party does have responsibility for Bush getting elected (if he does), and I do not think this will reflect well on them.

Scott, I think some of what you see as apathy is really just pragmatism.

Take care,
Katie

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Date: Mon, Nov 13, 2000 at 20:26:57 (GMT)
From: Scott T.
Email: None
To: Katie
Subject: The REAL Real Conspiracy
Message:
Katie:

It is important to understand that each different sort of voting machine has a different error rate, and punch machines are higher than optical readers. Now, there are two kinds of errors that are possible: a 'false positive' which is a non-punch that's read as a punch. These would result in either an erroneously recorded vote where the intent was a non-vote (type X), or a double vote (type Y). Then there are 'false negatives.' Mostly these are valid punches that are erroneously recorded as non-punches, or 'undervotes' (type Z). The voter intended to, and in fact actually did vote for someone, but his vote was never recorded. Type X errors aren't really a problem, because they're randomly distributed. Overall each candidate on the ballot will get the same number of these, including minor party candidates, so the vote margin won't change. Type Y and type Z ballots are a problem because these are errors that fail to count a valid vote, and therefore will tend to harm whichever candidate actually has the most support. If a district is predominantly Democrat then type Y and type Z errors will favor republicans. That is, they will be biased against Democrats. The opposite is true in predominantly Republican districts. The whole point is that, because of these errors, machine counts are biased, and the higher the error rate for a particular machine the greater the bias.

Engineers usually design in order to minimize false positives, because that's their habit. So, as a rule, type X errors are minimized, which of course tends to maximize type Y and Z errors. This is why there are looking especially at the undervote ballots. I have also complained about this to some of my engineering friends recently, because they have designed to the wrong specifications. We really don't care about false positives, because they are unbiased, so why minimize them?

Now, this part is important in order to understand why Bush is spinning things the way he is. Punch machines are cheaper than optical readers, so they are generally concentrated in low income districts. What this means is that the overall impact of the procedural errors you feel are nonpartisan is to systematically undercount lower income districts. This was the point made by Lawrence Tribe in his defense of the manual vote count for the Gore Campaign. It is also the reason why Bush does not think he will gain as much from asking for a manual count in the districts that went for him, so he is attempting to block manual counts on principle. Some principle! The judge saw right through this, and denied the request for an injunction.

There is an issue regarding who controls the manual counting process, but the procedure and protocol used in Palm Beach seems pretty transparent. If it goes to the Supreme Court they may order a re-start of the manual process all over again, with a matched set of controls and a rigid protocol for judging when the chards indicate a valid vote. I could explain the reasoning behind the judgments, but figure this is enough for now. One the whole I think the protocols are fine because they attempt to minimize Type Y and Z errors, and don't make type X errors worse, which we don't care about anyway. The bias of who controls the process is still a problem though, so everything probably depends on how open the process is. A ruling against Bush on this by the Supreme Court would be devastating to his credibility, so he may not pursue it at all.

So, Bush stands to gain less from a recount than do Democrats. It's that simple. Even machine recounts tend to favor Democrats... or more accurately they tend to adjust for the bias of the machine error that tends to harm Democrats. So, in general Bush will not ask for recounts, except possibly in Florida if the vote is still close at the end, after all the manual counts and the overseas ballots have been tallied. That's because he has already lost as much as he can to the unbiasing in Democratic districts, and may pick up a few votes in heavily Republican districts. This is not the case in the other states: Oregon, Iowa, Wisconsin and New Mexico... because no lower income neighborhoods will have yet been counted... so he can *only* lose ground. He is bluffing about asking for recounts in those states. It is pure hot air, and the Gore people know it. The final wildcard is New Hampshire, which may now be back in play. A recount there could put the state in reach for the Democrats.

Bush will do everything he can to stop the manual counting in Florida, no matter what the cost. He now has Republican volunteers participating in the Palm Beach manual count attempting to slow down the process as much as possible. The strategy is to keep them from meeting the deadline, which is why this battle has emerged over the deadline now.

What an education for all of us, huh?

--Scott

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Date: Mon, Nov 13, 2000 at 21:54:46 (GMT)
From: Jerry
Email: None
To: Scott T.
Subject: Did you see Gore?
Message:
He just made a statement not too long ago that it's not about who wins or loses, it's about the democratic process and how everybody has a right to have their vote counted. If that's the case, how come they're only going to these painstaking lengths to find those uncounted votes in Democrat controlled counties? I've never seen a politician more transparent. I hate him.

Jerry The Republican

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Date: Mon, Nov 13, 2000 at 23:52:34 (GMT)
From: Scott T.
Email: None
To: Jerry
Subject: Did you see Gore?
Message:
Jerry:

Florida law allows any candidate to request a manual count in any county they want to. The Bush campaign could have made that request. They offer, as their excuse for not doing so, that they disbelieve in the principle of manual counts. If they actually believe that then they're dunces, because all you need is a protocol for determining when you're going to count a hanging chard as a vote, and when it doesn't count as a vote. As I said before, counting too many partially connected chards as votes will add the same amount of votes to all candidates, so that type of error really doesn't matter. The argument that this inaccuracy hurts anyone is specious. What they are worried about are the valid Democrat votes that will be revealed by the protocol. The bias of the machine is to *not* count these, so this inaccuracy *does* hurt someone. If the punch card machines were in Republican counties it would be Republicans that are hurt, but the machines are almost exclusively in Democratic counties. The optical readers found it Bush counties have an error rate, but it's smaller, so the dividend of a manual count is also smaller. By the way, one very good reason for Bush to request manual counts in those districts is to determine whether Gore gains. If he does, then there may be an argument for 'mischief.' But the guy was too dull to figure that out.

I repeat for the sake of clarity, the only hope Bush has of winning the election is to make sure these valid votes aren't counted. He cannot pick up enough votes in Republican districts to make up for this loss, so he didn't request recounts in those counties. He should have, because he'll get some dividend from overseas votes that will partly counteract the *correction* of the vote in Gore's counties. Studies can be cited that almost any protocol will produce additional valid votes, and errors will be unbiased or evenly distributed, so they won't affect who wins.

So if he loses by a narrow margin after all the votes are counted he may petition the Supreme Court on the basis that you just mentioned: manual counts only in D counties are 'unfair.' The justices will ask his surrogates why they didn't request manual counts themselves, to which they will give the rather lame response that they 'don't believe in them.' The Justice may grant relief in the form of a statewide recount using a standard protocol and nonpartisan safeguards against 'mischief,' but in my opinion no mischief is going on. The process looks pretty open to me, and indeed there is no reason to do mischief. Because of the error rates I mentioned a completely unbiased manual count of all the votes in the state would still benefit Gore enough to win the election... and that's the whole of it.

So take your pick. Either Bush was too dumb to request the manual counts, or he was too smart. But, 'rules are rules,' right?

I am not gloating. I think Gore should not take this to the bank. He should find some way to even the score for the sake of the country. I really think he was attempting to do that in his speech, but the guy is so inarticulate that he's being misunderstood. He wants to win REALLY BAD, but he's also putting out feelers to Bush. The question is whether Bush is smart enough, or too smart, to respond. Since Gore is winning the public relations battle I really hope Bush *is* smart. But I'm not counting on it.

Now, what would be fair? Answer: both sides need to bend on the 'rules are rules' rigidity. I'm not sure there is such an accomodation. Maybe it's just wishful thinking, and this really *is* a football game.


--Scott

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Date: Tues, Nov 14, 2000 at 00:48:18 (GMT)
From: Jerry
Email: None
To: Scott T.
Subject: Did you see Gore?
Message:
Scott,

I'm aware that the Republicans have to cover their own asses and shouldn't expect the Democrats to do them any favors. I just didn't care for the spin, that it was to honor the rights of the people. Gore is just scraping for votes to get his ass in the White House. Any fool can see that. But there he is, with a big smile on his face, telling us how it's us he cares about. It was about as transparent a lie as any I've seen.

He cannot pick up enough votes in Republican districts to make up for this loss, so he didn't request recounts in those counties.

That's pure speculation, Scott. I haven't heard a single Democrat or pundit make this claim before you did. You'd think we would have by now. I'm not saying you're wrong. I'm just saying it's a very speculative call I haven't heard before.

But, 'rules are rules,' right?

That's right. Unless you believe in anarchy.

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Date: Tues, Nov 14, 2000 at 03:28:42 (GMT)
From: Scott T.
Email: None
To: Jerry
Subject: Did you see Gore?
Message:
Jerry:

That's pure speculation, Scott. I haven't heard a single Democrat or pundit make this claim before you did. You'd think we would have by now. I'm not saying you're wrong. I'm just saying it's a very speculative call I haven't heard before.

I just heard Ed Rawlins, Dale Bumpers, and Carl Bernstein make this observation. Dale Bumpers says that Gore would agree to wave the deadline excluding Bush from requesting manual counts in a 'New York minute.' Rawlins also thinks its the only way to resolve things. I hope there is enough uncertainty in the outcome that Bush would agree. He may have to agree whether he wants to or not, because I have a sense that the heavyweights in the Republican party are going to start leaning on him.

And the statement 'Rules are rules' is a meaningless tautology. The point is that you have to weigh rules and values. That's what justice is about.

--Scott

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Date: Tues, Nov 14, 2000 at 05:18:54 (GMT)
From: Jerry
Email: None
To: Scott T.
Subject: Rules are rules
Message:
And the statement 'Rules are rules' is a meaningless tautology.

Somewhere, you've got to draw the line, Scott. Otherwise it could go on forever. But one rule, in this case, I think might deserve some amendment is the one that demands that all certified votes must be submitted within a week of the election. Obviously, if a manual recount is going to be allowed, that's not going to give them enough time to complete the count. So, you've got 2 conflicting rules. Manual recounts are allowed but not enough time is allowed for them. Something's got to give. As far as the Democrats giving the Republicans the right to dredge up more votes for themselves in counties supportive of them, I don't think that's the Democrats' right to give. They don't make the rules.

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Date: Tues, Nov 14, 2000 at 15:40:43 (GMT)
From: Scott T.
Email: None
To: Jerry
Subject: Rules are rules
Message:
Jerry:

Somewhere, you've got to draw the line, Scott. Otherwise it could go on forever.

James Buchanan calls these 'relatively absolute absolutes.' Essentially he means that the variation allowed in the interpretation of rules gradually slows down until it stops, for all practical purposes.

But one rule, in this case, I think might deserve some amendment is the one that demands that all certified votes must be submitted within a week of the election. Obviously, if a manual recount is going to be allowed, that's not going to give them enough time to complete the count. So, you've got 2 conflicting rules. Manual recounts are allowed but not enough time is allowed for them. Something's got to give.

I think we are in 100% agreement about this.

As far as the Democrats giving the Republicans the right to dredge up more votes for themselves in counties supportive of them, I don't think that's the Democrats' right to give. They don't make the rules.

I assume you're talking about having missed the deadline. Here to, there's an issue of interpretation of law. There is even the rather novel concept of one campaign filing suit to expand the interpretation to compel all counties to do manual counts if the vote difference might materially effect the outcome, and asking the other campaign to join the suit. So you'd have the Gore and Bush campaigns on the same side of the issue. Not that this would happen. The suit would probably be brought by Bush, with the Gore lawyers simply advising. Frankly they seem to understand the issues better than the Bush lawyers.

There is also the issue that Bush is on the verge of alienating Republicans in congress that have to run for re-election in 2002. His fumble-footed and undemocratic efforts to stop the manual counts will place most of the Republican incumbents from moderate districts at risk for re-election.

This Bush guy is really stupid, and if that's not apparent by now I don't know what is. If he's elected my expectation is that we'll have a recession within 2 years, because he simply will be so incompetent that he will make some decisive managerial blunder. Jesus, he doesn't even understand that hand counts correct for machine errors, or the difference between machines and computers, or the fact that the 'machine' includes the reliability of the card specifications as well as the mechanics of the counting machines. Sheesh, what a dunce! How can he possibly lead in the information age? Forget it.

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Date: Tues, Nov 14, 2000 at 22:14:04 (GMT)
From: Rick
Email: None
To: Scott T.
Subject: Rules are rules
Message:
Jesus, he doesn't even understand that hand counts correct for machine errors, or the difference between machines and computers, or the fact that the 'machine' includes the reliability of the card specifications as well as the mechanics of the counting machines. Sheesh, what a dunce!

I don't think he's that dumb. I think he understands that hand counts correct for machine errors, and the difference between machines and computers, and the importance of card specifications.

Sometimes he compromises the truth to put on a spin, and sometimes the problem he has is bringing a large amount of information to bear in drawing a conclusion. He may forget some details when trying to make a point or not take the time to get the proper information.

I'm not defending him or saying he's bright. I think his intelligence is average at best. Maybe he's a good card player and has a few strengths in certain areas that involve politics.

It's just that he's glaringly unexceptional and qualified, at best, to be the director of a local Kiwanis chapter.

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Date: Wed, Nov 15, 2000 at 02:42:26 (GMT)
From: Scott T.
Email: None
To: Rick
Subject: Rules are rules
Message:
Rick:

I think both sides are glaringly ignorant of statistics. For one thing, no one has mentioned the fact that false positives are an 'error' that's not a problem. Now Brower and Miami-Dade have decided not to have a manual count, which I think is probably appropriate. 6 votes found for Gore out of 3 precincts is not statistically significant, so there is no justification for a manual count. The Gore people are blindly extrapolating from that result a 2 vote per precinct gain, without considering the significance of that figure. In other words, finding 6 more votes in a precinct means that the average change over all precincts is not significantly different from 0. I think the results in Palm Beach *are* significant, and although it's a smaller county there's good reason to proceed there. Furthermore, since the methodology they planned to use in Miami-Dade sounded fishy to me, I'm glad they decided not to continue.

So that leaves Palm Beach County and the absentee ballots. Right now, I'd place the odds at approximately 50/50 and the candidates should shake hands and agree to just call it a day and accept whatever vote emerges from these two sources. If Gore attempts to sew this up by forcing a count in Brower and Miami-Dade I'll make sure not to vote for him next time around, unless the Republican put up someone worse than a yellow dog. Basically what both sides have to recognize is that this is actually a tie, and anything that resembles a coin toss is the appropriate way to end it. In New Mexico there's a law that if the election ends in a tie both candidates are obliged to resolve the election by playing a game of poker. That's what we need now. Someone has to propose a game of poker.

(By the way, I don't think that's a reference to color. What it means is a dog that's too cowardly to hunt.)

--Scott

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Date: Tues, Nov 14, 2000 at 18:58:10 (GMT)
From: Jerry
Email: None
To: Scott T.
Subject: Rules are rules
Message:
His [Bush's] fumble-footed and undemocratic efforts to stop the manual counts will place most of the Republican incumbents from moderate districts at risk for re-election.

I don't think trying to stop the manual recount was a bad move, Scott. The argument was if there's nothing wrong with the machines, why do you have to count the ballots by hand? Personally, I'm not so sure why this argument wasn't upheld in court.

I'm really beginning to enjoy this. I can't wait for the movie, which you just know is going to happen. If they do a good job of it, it should turn out to be one of the best comedies in years!

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Date: Tues, Nov 14, 2000 at 20:04:59 (GMT)
From: Scott T.
Email: None
To: Jerry
Subject: Rules are rules
Message:
Jerry:

I don't think trying to stop the manual recount was a bad move, Scott. The argument was if there's nothing wrong with the machines, why do you have to count the ballots by hand? Personally, I'm not so sure why this argument wasn't upheld in court.

Well, I don't think the term 'machine' appears in the statute, but even if it does there's a longstanding tradition that the term 'machine' includes parts that are used in conjunction with the mechanism and essential to it's function. In other words, a gun is of no use without bullets, so those bullets are 'part' of the machine. Therefore the cards used with the balloting machines and counted in the counting machines are part of the machine, and if they have malfunctioned then the restriction to only consider a machine malfunction has been met. This isn't stretching the definition of 'machine' at all. Cards are manufactured to varying tolerances.

The other part of the restriction says that the board has to order a remedy if the malfunction would materially affect the outcome of the election. So, it says nothing about whether the magnitude of the malfunction is minor or major, and we all know that even minor malfunctions can have huge consequences. There were 72 votes cast in the 1% of undervote ballots tested that weren't counted in two passes of the mechanized part of the machine. This extrapolates to 7200 votes countywide, and clearly this could effect the outcome of the election. So in my opinion the board has to order a manual count. This will be the argument made in court on this issue, or something like it. But the county officials don't need to be 'ordered.' They only need to be given permission, so the resolution will be simple.

Interestingly, one non-arbitrary reason Katherine Harris might give for not accepting any late hand counts might be that they have only been done in 'some' but not 'all' counties. This might not be considered arbitrary, but she'd then have to allow time for the counts to be conducted in all counties, and the Governor would have to order a statewide hand count. There is precedent for this kind of discretion on the part of the Governor in Florida Law. He can even order a special election, if he deems it sufficiently in the public interest.

--Scott

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Date: Wed, Nov 15, 2000 at 00:39:25 (GMT)
From: Jerry
Email: None
To: Scott T.
Subject: Rules are rules
Message:
Scott,

I disagree, entirely, with your argument that the card is part of the machine. Those cards could have, and should have been tested before they were submitted to the public to cast their votes. And they probably were, just like the butterfly ballot that's now being disputed.

Some things you just don't argue in retrospect. If the election board decided the punch card ballot was an effective enough way to conduct an election before the election, it looks pretty fucking pathetic of them to decide after the election that it really isn't.

It just seems like so much whining over spilt milk, or the snowjob of the century if they get away with it. And don't count out the possibility of the manual recount being disallowed yet. The Republicans have made an appeal on it. I wouldn't be surprised if it winds up in the Supreme Court. The way things are going, it probably will.

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Date: Wed, Nov 15, 2000 at 03:24:06 (GMT)
From: Scott T.
Email: None
To: Jerry
Subject: Rules are rules
Message:
Jerry:

Well, I think the cards are part of the machine, but that's only one narrow interpretation of the law anyway. I don't think its the right one anyway, so the 'machine' concept would probably not survive closer inspection. And you have to understand that the Gore people sent out volunteers to record testimony of irregularities concerning the vote as the returns were coming in, so whatever happens they will be able to meet the criteria that they were justified in asking for manual counts.

I don't think punch cards are tested any more than gasoline is tested, so do you just leave your car behind if you get water in the gas or do you fix it? And by the way, gasoline *is* part of the machine, as are the tires, grease, etc.

The fact is that the Gore people have met the requirements of the law, Palm Beach and Volucia counties (and possibly Broward) have conducted a test to determine that the number of uncounted votes is statistically significant, and that the benefit of a manual count could materially change the outcome. Any court in Florida will uphold the necessity to include the manual count from Palm Beach (and possibly Broward) in the total given the conditions under which they were gathered.

The Republicans had the opportunity to make this case anywhere else in the state that they wanted to, but were frankly afraid they'd get their suits mussed up, so they never bothered to get out in the streets and gather the evidence. Enough. I think Gore will probably pick up enough votes in Palm Beach county alone to win the election, so at that point you can apply your 'rules are rules' test to understand why it's not unfair, unless you think the Gore campaign should have done Bush's work *for* him. Claiming at this late stage that manually counting Gore counties and not Bush counties is somehow unfair is 'whining' just as much as anything else.

My contention is that 'rules are rules' is a false standard. It ain't good enough. But in the absence of any sort of mutual agreement that would transcend that standard it will have to do. Remember, at this stage in the election the candidates are actually in a tie, and neither deserves to win. Flip a coin or let them fight it out. Same diff.

--Scott

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Date: Wed, Nov 15, 2000 at 05:33:44 (GMT)
From: Jerry
Email: None
To: Scott T.
Subject: Bottom line
Message:
Claiming at this late stage that manually counting Gore counties and not Bush counties is somehow unfair is 'whining' just as much as anything else.

The Republicans aren't doing any such thing, Scott. Their whole strategy rests on the courts' decision if the manual recounts are to be included in the final tally. They will sink or swim with that decision. In the long run, it'll be who was the better strategist that wins this election, which might be the way it should be. After all, would you want a president who played a lousy hand with the cards he's been dealt? Well, that's what's happening here. Both Bush and Gore have been dealt their hands, and they're playing them, each, to the best of their ability. We'll see who wins.

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Date: Wed, Nov 15, 2000 at 15:28:30 (GMT)
From: Scott T.
Email: None
To: Jerry
Subject: Bottom line
Message:
Jerry:

I agree, with one caveat. We not only need a President who is good at strategizing his own victory, but one that is able to lead by convincing the public that he is more committed to the good of the country than his own good. A clever strategist who uses those skills to his own benefit, and the expense of the country, is not a good thing. In the long run though, we're better off with a smart president than a dumb one, because he'll be better able to exercise his skill in the country's benefit when there is not clear personal benefit at stake. We also have other checks and balances in place to protect against some of the potential damage a clever but self interested politician might do.

So basically, I agree with you. What's going on here is a sort of 'trial by combat.' It's pretty ugly, but they usually are.

Oh, one other thing. If the manual counts go ahead, and Bush is only behind by a small margin, then watch Bush demand manual counts, at least in that northern county that had 23,000 undervotes that went for him. Some of the rhetoric he has used may haunt him, but he'll do it anyway. That will be the endgame, at least in Florida.

--Scott

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Date: Tues, Nov 14, 2000 at 23:25:23 (GMT)
From: a0aji
Email: None
To: Scott T.
Subject: One Hundred Percent Accuracy Methods Attainable!
Message:
Perhaps irrational, but I believe Harris meant to see that every ballot the people want counted, is counted. I thought the 5 p.m. thing today was just a ruse to cover her political derriere. She said right in her statment:


barring foo fah fah.

Who would say that, when they don't have to, unless they were inviting it?

The more I think about this, the more I think even one out of a million misidentified votes is entirely unacceptable in any election anywhere.

Here's what I'd do:

1. Revise the ballots to be limited to the kind filled in with a #2 pencil. The People have already been trained for this, in their State Lottery. :)

Every phase of this has a front and a back side, with blinds, to protect the actual identity of the people on both sides of the balloting booth:

2. Have each ballot reviewed by hand and eye at the time cast, by a qualified Teller. They could speak to each other through a screen (like a confessional).

3. Have a public way to see the actual accumulation of votes, down to single vote units. For offices like President, a separate ballot is cast. As each person's Presidential Ballot is cast, it is tallied in an unambiguous way in a public setting, so that each elector can validate the presence of their own vote.

The simplest way to do this:

Every vote cast also has a password that the elector alone knows is theirs. Every ballot has a serial number, generated at random from a 32-bit database (is unique in a 32 bit space). The person's password is a combination of this 32-bit number (expressed as a dotted quad, just as IP addresses are) and an 8 to 24 character text string the elector provides.

The votes are posted -- every one of them -- on a computer bulletin board, with passwords. Each member of the public can then read the bulletin board, and search on their unique password, to verify their particular ballot was counted!

This is all low-tech, really; and every step of the way, there is mechanical auditing available; everything is tangible; all computerized stuph is simply there for a speedy second source of the same dataset, and is in no way unique (the system would work just as well without them, but would work more slowly).

[ran out of time to proofread this, above]

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Date: Wed, Nov 15, 2000 at 03:33:26 (GMT)
From: Scott T.
Email: None
To: a0aji
Subject: One Hundred Percent Accuracy Methods Attainable!
Message:
a0aji:

One problem. The Republicans would lose approximately 0.5 to 2 percentage points over what they're traditionally used to receiving, due the the inherent tendancy of punch card machines to undercount votes in lower income Democratic precincts. Accuracy, in other words, will hurt Republicans. That's one of the things that's playing out with a vengeance in Florida.

--Scott

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Date: Tues, Nov 14, 2000 at 21:27:39 (GMT)
From: G
Email: None
To: Scott T.
Subject: Bush signed a Texas bill favoring hand counts
Message:
About two years ago Bush signed a Texas bill favoring hand counts over machine counts. The passage read:

'If different counting methods are chosen under Section 214.042(a) among multiple requests for a recount of electronic voting system results, only one method may be used in the recount. A manual recount shall be conducted in preference to an electronic recount and an electronic recount using a corrected program shall be conducted in preference to an electronic recount.'

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Date: Wed, Nov 15, 2000 at 03:37:15 (GMT)
From: Scott T.
Email: None
To: G
Subject: Bush signed a Texas bill favoring hand counts
Message:
G:

Not sure what a 'corrected program' is, but I think this is a method of calibrating the machine to minimize false positives or false negatives. You have to optimize one at the expense of the other. Accuracy is not really the issue. The issue is bias. Having too many false negatives is biased, while having too many false positives is not.

--Scott

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Date: Mon, Nov 13, 2000 at 00:48:07 (GMT)
From: Joy
Email: None
To: gerry
Subject: The Ultimate Conspiracy
Message:
That's a cool idea. Maybe they could pick Ralph Nader.
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Date: Mon, Nov 13, 2000 at 01:09:48 (GMT)
From: Sir Dave
Email: sirdavid12@hotmail.com
To: Joy
Subject: A message to Joy
Message:
Joy; I'd like to speak with you again if that's OK. Please email me your phone number as I've lost it. My email address is on this post. Thanks.
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Date: Sun, Nov 12, 2000 at 23:36:07 (GMT)
From: Scott T.
Email: None
To: gerry
Subject: The Ultimate Conspiracy
Message:
Gerry:

I once double dated with a Jay Rockefeller in college. He was a sandy-haired guy who was in 'the' Rockefeller family, but I've no idea whether it was the same guy. As I recall we smoked a little pot he happened to have with him. Naah... couldn't be.

--Scott

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Date: Sun, Nov 12, 2000 at 23:57:23 (GMT)
From: gerry
Email: None
To: Scott T.
Subject: Did he inhale ?
Message:
'Jay' is John D. Rockefeller IV, Senator from West Virginia.

It's funny thinking that the Congress really could pick anyone they wanted, as long as he/she were 'qualified' according to the constitution. See the Twentieth amendment.

Maybe it is the same guy, Scott. Here's some pictures

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Date: Mon, Nov 13, 2000 at 02:04:49 (GMT)
From: Marianne
Email: None
To: gerry and Scott T.
Subject: Beam us up, Scotty!
Message:
Do tell, Scott T., is the person in gerry's photos the person you recall toking with?

And Ger, I found your nomination of Jay to be hilarious! My pal...

Marianne

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Date: Mon, Nov 13, 2000 at 11:23:17 (GMT)
From: Scott T.
Email: None
To: Marianne
Subject: Beam us up, Scotty!
Message:
Gerry, Marianne:

The pictures look vaguely like the guy, but it was 33 years ago in the summer of 1967, and all the Rockefellers probably have similar features. I know his knickname was 'Sandy.' I won't tell you who our dates were, but they were definitely rich girls. Not oil rich, but aerospace. And I'm not sure that we exactly doubled, or that I doubled with someone else and he happened to be at the party. His date had extraordinary eyes. Yeah he did inhale. It was his pot. I can't even remember how I met them.

--Scott

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Date: Mon, Nov 13, 2000 at 02:11:53 (GMT)
From: gerry
Email: None
To: Marianne
Subject: Beam us up, Scotty!
Message:
marianne--the threat is over--the ringer is back on. Over and out..
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Date: Sun, Nov 12, 2000 at 21:11:53 (GMT)
From: Tim G
Email: timgitti@indigo.ie
To: all
Subject: Dolly's Dilemma
Message:
I heard on Irish radio that Dolly Parton had characterised the race as being one between ' A Redneck and a Stiffneck '.
It gives a new meaning to the phrase ' neck and neck'.
What about a completely new election across all the States?
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Date: Sun, Nov 12, 2000 at 22:49:30 (GMT)
From: a
Email: None
To: Tim G
Subject: the stiffneck
Message:
I saw a PBS program 'Frontline' about the two candidates. I voted for Gore, but I have to say that he looks abnormally stiff in many photos. In one photo he's sitting down with some college friends and he's sitting STRAIGHT up, as if he's still standing. He looked comical but I'm not sure that was intentional. Maybe he should have smoked more dope. If he becomes president, I can see someone carving a wooden statue of him.
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Date: Sun, Nov 12, 2000 at 22:50:56 (GMT)
From: G
Email: None
To: all
Subject: a is G (nt)
Message:
nt
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