Forum V: Archive
Compiled: Tues, Nov 21, 2000 at 14:48:02 (GMT)
From: Nov 07, 2000 To: Nov 18, 2000 Page: 5 Of: 5


Cynthia -:- X-Apparently To:.......(On Topic) -:- Thurs, Nov 09, 2000 at 16:45:15 (GMT)
__ a0aji -:- X-Apparently To:.......(On Topic) -:- Thurs, Nov 09, 2000 at 20:56:17 (GMT)
__ __ Cynthia -:- X-Apparently To:...(On Topic) -:- Thurs, Nov 09, 2000 at 21:44:01 (GMT)
__ __ __ a0aji -:- oic :) -nt- -:- Fri, Nov 10, 2000 at 06:03:36 (GMT)
__ Steve Quint -:- Speaking of Translators -:- Thurs, Nov 09, 2000 at 17:00:43 (GMT)
__ __ Cynthia -:- Speaking of Translators..I know what you mean -:- Thurs, Nov 09, 2000 at 17:43:53 (GMT)
__ __ __ Steve Quint -:- Wow! -:- Thurs, Nov 09, 2000 at 18:10:50 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Cynthia -:- I love that show... -:- Thurs, Nov 09, 2000 at 18:36:02 (GMT)
__ __ Steve Quint -:- Speaking of Translators and English -:- Thurs, Nov 09, 2000 at 17:14:13 (GMT)

Patrick -:- attn. Forum Admin. -:- Thurs, Nov 09, 2000 at 07:49:25 (GMT)
__ la-ex -:- attn. Forum Admin./I agree totally -:- Thurs, Nov 09, 2000 at 16:29:28 (GMT)
__ __ Sir Dave -:- I've got most of it on my site -:- Thurs, Nov 09, 2000 at 21:44:35 (GMT)
__ __ Jean-Michel -:- Heard your suggestions ! -:- Thurs, Nov 09, 2000 at 18:29:03 (GMT)

JTF -:- The Human need to believe! -:- Thurs, Nov 09, 2000 at 07:41:20 (GMT)
__ Salam -:- The Human need to believe! -:- Fri, Nov 10, 2000 at 15:33:36 (GMT)
__ __ JTF -:- The Human need to believe! -:- Fri, Nov 10, 2000 at 17:56:07 (GMT)

Daneane -:- Toilet Paper -:- Thurs, Nov 09, 2000 at 05:34:32 (GMT)
__ jondon -:- Toilet Paper -:- Thurs, Nov 09, 2000 at 11:50:28 (GMT)

Marianne -:- The premie therapist -:- Thurs, Nov 09, 2000 at 01:15:46 (GMT)
__ Peter Howie -:- The therapist got by client -:- Fri, Nov 10, 2000 at 01:59:00 (GMT)
__ Ben Lurking -:- The premie therapist -:- Thurs, Nov 09, 2000 at 16:05:12 (GMT)
__ Loaf -:- Well done Marianne. -:- Thurs, Nov 09, 2000 at 05:36:49 (GMT)
__ Rick -:- The premie therapist -:- Thurs, Nov 09, 2000 at 02:37:37 (GMT)
__ Selene -:- why was there a debate? -:- Thurs, Nov 09, 2000 at 01:23:14 (GMT)
__ __ Cynthia -:- Thanks, Marianne.... -:- Thurs, Nov 09, 2000 at 16:08:35 (GMT)

Jim -:- Shp and Dettmers -- what happened, Shppie? -:- Wed, Nov 08, 2000 at 20:31:33 (GMT)
__ shp -:- What do you mean 'what happened', Jim? -:- Thurs, Nov 09, 2000 at 01:10:45 (GMT)
__ __ Jim -:- Don't be a such weenie, shp -- repost -:- Thurs, Nov 09, 2000 at 02:52:42 (GMT)
__ __ __ shp -:- You are not the director of this Forum or anyone -:- Thurs, Nov 09, 2000 at 17:16:25 (GMT)
__ __ Jim -:- Don't be such a weenie, shp -:- Thurs, Nov 09, 2000 at 02:49:58 (GMT)
__ __ __ Erica -:- Don't be such a hard bastard -:- Thurs, Nov 09, 2000 at 10:57:22 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ AJW -:- Cult, Cult, Cult... -:- Sat, Nov 11, 2000 at 13:14:10 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Way -:- You really aren't listening, Erica -:- Thurs, Nov 09, 2000 at 17:14:16 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Erica -:- A Master -:- Fri, Nov 10, 2000 at 02:19:50 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Way -:- Response to:A Master -:- Fri, Nov 10, 2000 at 21:38:38 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ hal -:- Extremely well put Way , as usual ! nt -:- Mon, Nov 13, 2000 at 19:26:55 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Monmot -:- Whoa, Erica, Hold Your Horses There... -:- Fri, Nov 10, 2000 at 06:35:44 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Jim -:- For a girl who's not 'sneaking off' ............ -:- Fri, Nov 10, 2000 at 02:47:31 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Nigel -:- shp: read Way's post three times very slowly (nt) -:- Thurs, Nov 09, 2000 at 23:44:44 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Jim -:- Finally, premies, proof of ex-premie brainwashing! -:- Fri, Nov 10, 2000 at 00:01:48 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Jerry -:- Good post, Way -:- Thurs, Nov 09, 2000 at 18:05:58 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Jim -:- That simply is NOT true (i.e. Fuck off) -:- Thurs, Nov 09, 2000 at 15:54:44 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Erica -:- I didn't sneak off! -:- Thurs, Nov 09, 2000 at 17:52:18 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Jim -:- You are simply lying -- AND YOU KNOW IT!!!! -:- Thurs, Nov 09, 2000 at 21:17:27 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Erica -:- No 'intentional' lies .... -:- Fri, Nov 10, 2000 at 20:48:34 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Susan -:- You are simply lying -- AND YOU KNOW IT!!!! -:- Thurs, Nov 09, 2000 at 21:40:16 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Jim -:- It's even stronger than that -:- Thurs, Nov 09, 2000 at 21:58:14 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Susan -:- you are right -:- Thurs, Nov 09, 2000 at 22:04:34 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Susan -:- this is how Rawat uses his PAMs -:- Thurs, Nov 09, 2000 at 19:27:54 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Cynthia -:- To Susan..... -:- Thurs, Nov 09, 2000 at 22:23:27 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Susan -:- thanks Cynthia -:- Fri, Nov 10, 2000 at 17:41:53 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Katie -:- Terry Yingling is scary -:- Fri, Nov 10, 2000 at 19:01:48 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Susan -:- oh my God -:- Fri, Nov 10, 2000 at 19:50:59 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Katie -:- oh my God -:- Fri, Nov 10, 2000 at 20:04:58 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Susan -:- your credibility is 100% with me -:- Fri, Nov 10, 2000 at 20:11:40 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Cynthia -:- To Susan and It's my Birthday!! -:- Fri, Nov 10, 2000 at 18:40:42 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Susan -:- Happy Birthday! (nt) -:- Fri, Nov 10, 2000 at 18:43:36 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Susan -:- throw...throw...throw.....( where is my brain !)nt -:- Thurs, Nov 09, 2000 at 19:33:51 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Forum Administrator -:- typo now fixed (nt) -:- Thurs, Nov 09, 2000 at 19:55:04 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Susan -:- thanks!!!! (nt) -:- Thurs, Nov 09, 2000 at 20:01:13 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Jerry -:- I didn't sneak off! -:- Thurs, Nov 09, 2000 at 18:16:43 (GMT)
__ Michael Dettmers -:- Shp and Dettmers -- what happened, Shppie? -:- Wed, Nov 08, 2000 at 23:13:30 (GMT)
__ __ shp -:- To Michael -:- Thurs, Nov 09, 2000 at 17:31:44 (GMT)
__ __ __ Jim -:- Translation? -:- Thurs, Nov 09, 2000 at 21:28:11 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ shp -:- YOUR translation, in a convoluted and twisted mind -:- Thurs, Nov 09, 2000 at 22:29:27 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Hal -:- YOUR translation, in a convoluted and twisted mind -:- Tues, Nov 14, 2000 at 07:58:14 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Jim -:- I'll take that as a compliment? -:- Thurs, Nov 09, 2000 at 22:36:42 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ shp -:- Dealing with an overgrown kid named Jim. -:- Thurs, Nov 09, 2000 at 23:31:44 (GMT)
__ __ shp -:- Thank you for your time and information. (nt) -:- Thurs, Nov 09, 2000 at 00:55:53 (GMT)
__ __ __ Jim -:- OK, shp ... your turn now -:- Thurs, Nov 09, 2000 at 16:18:07 (GMT)
__ __ __ Jerry -:- What were you hoping for? -:- Thurs, Nov 09, 2000 at 01:03:17 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Salam -:- What were you hoping for? -:- Thurs, Nov 09, 2000 at 12:40:23 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Jim -:- Give YOURSELF some slack -:- Thurs, Nov 09, 2000 at 16:03:38 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ shp -:- I didn't notice any egg-timers or clocks here. -:- Thurs, Nov 09, 2000 at 17:44:49 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Susan -:- I don't care if you percolate at Burger King -:- Thurs, Nov 09, 2000 at 21:53:14 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Salam -:- Who we're gonna bash if shp changes his mind? -:- Thurs, Nov 09, 2000 at 23:56:15 (GMT)

Jim -:- I feel like I'm missing the party of the century -:- Wed, Nov 08, 2000 at 19:41:18 (GMT)
__ Jerry -:- I'm glad I missed it -:- Thurs, Nov 09, 2000 at 01:22:43 (GMT)
__ Steve Quint -:- I feel like I'm missing the party of the century -:- Wed, Nov 08, 2000 at 20:12:09 (GMT)
__ __ Jim -:- Very funny! (nt) -:- Wed, Nov 08, 2000 at 20:15:34 (GMT)
__ __ __ jondon -:- Wonder if he is listening to... -:- Wed, Nov 08, 2000 at 20:57:07 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Steve Quint -:- Wonder if he is listening to... -:- Wed, Nov 08, 2000 at 21:00:32 (GMT)
__ Mickey the Pharisee -:- I feel like I'm missing the party of the century -:- Wed, Nov 08, 2000 at 20:06:49 (GMT)
__ Selene -:- party of the century -:- Wed, Nov 08, 2000 at 19:48:53 (GMT)
__ __ Jim -:- party of the century -:- Wed, Nov 08, 2000 at 19:56:16 (GMT)
__ __ __ sb -:- party of the century -:- Sun, Nov 12, 2000 at 04:30:29 (GMT)
__ __ __ Selene -:- ick -:- Wed, Nov 08, 2000 at 20:22:01 (GMT)
__ Jim -:- Damn! It sounds like they were really rockin' !! -:- Wed, Nov 08, 2000 at 19:46:02 (GMT)
__ __ Jerry -:- Damn! It sounds like they were really rockin' !! -:- Thurs, Nov 09, 2000 at 01:47:38 (GMT)
__ __ Monmot -:- I feel my teeth rotting while reading this treacle -:- Wed, Nov 08, 2000 at 19:56:06 (GMT)
__ __ __ Jim -:- And look how two-faced he is / they are! -:- Wed, Nov 08, 2000 at 20:10:07 (GMT)
__ __ __ Cynthia -:- It Must Have Been a 'Fantastic Phenomenon' (nt) -:- Wed, Nov 08, 2000 at 20:08:17 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Monmot -:- LOL. Yeah, Fantastic, But It Hurts Like Hell (nt) -:- Wed, Nov 08, 2000 at 20:15:53 (GMT)

Steve Quint -:- What The Hell Is Happening Here? -:- Wed, Nov 08, 2000 at 18:05:25 (GMT)
__ Jerry -:- What The Hell Is Happening Here? -:- Wed, Nov 08, 2000 at 19:05:19 (GMT)
__ Frodo -:- Reply to happenings -:- Wed, Nov 08, 2000 at 18:31:17 (GMT)
__ __ Steve Quint -:- Reply to happenings -:- Wed, Nov 08, 2000 at 19:14:30 (GMT)

a0aji -:- fire -:- Wed, Nov 08, 2000 at 17:22:47 (GMT)
__ Monmot -:- fire -:- Wed, Nov 08, 2000 at 20:38:53 (GMT)
__ __ a0aji -:- Tnx Monmot - wow -:- Thurs, Nov 09, 2000 at 02:19:20 (GMT)
__ __ Katie -:- fire (ot) -:- Wed, Nov 08, 2000 at 21:07:47 (GMT)
__ __ __ a0aji -:- fire (ot) -:- Thurs, Nov 09, 2000 at 02:25:49 (GMT)
__ __ __ Monmot -:- fire (ot) -:- Wed, Nov 08, 2000 at 21:32:02 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Katie -:- fire (ot) -:- Wed, Nov 08, 2000 at 22:33:59 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ a0aji -:- fire (ot) -:- Thurs, Nov 09, 2000 at 02:27:23 (GMT)
__ Selene -:- fire -:- Wed, Nov 08, 2000 at 18:57:12 (GMT)
__ __ a0aji -:- Tnx Selene -- by His grace and oh a FIRE DEPT nt -:- Thurs, Nov 09, 2000 at 02:16:59 (GMT)
__ Jim -:- What if the fire was in Brian Gaudet's building? -:- Wed, Nov 08, 2000 at 18:53:58 (GMT)
__ __ a0aji -:- What if the fire was in Brian Gaudet's building? -:- Thurs, Nov 09, 2000 at 02:12:08 (GMT)
__ __ Steve Quint -:- What if the fire was in Brian Gaudet's building? -:- Wed, Nov 08, 2000 at 19:21:51 (GMT)
__ Katie -:- fire and intutition -:- Wed, Nov 08, 2000 at 18:52:34 (GMT)
__ __ a0aji -:- fire and intutition -:- Thurs, Nov 09, 2000 at 02:02:31 (GMT)
__ a0aji -:- fire -:- Wed, Nov 08, 2000 at 17:37:26 (GMT)
__ __ Rick -:- fire -:- Wed, Nov 08, 2000 at 18:23:20 (GMT)
__ __ __ a0aji -:- fire -:- Thurs, Nov 09, 2000 at 01:58:57 (GMT)
__ __ __ Marianne -:- fire -:- Wed, Nov 08, 2000 at 19:06:03 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ a0aji -:- Thank you Marianne -nt- -:- Thurs, Nov 09, 2000 at 02:05:07 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Cynthia -:- fire -:- Wed, Nov 08, 2000 at 20:22:39 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ a0aji -:- Thanks Cynthia -- great fire story! -nt- -:- Thurs, Nov 09, 2000 at 02:06:49 (GMT)
__ __ __ Lurking Poster -:- Great fire story-- glad you are OK thanks!! NT -:- Wed, Nov 08, 2000 at 18:34:49 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ a0aji -:- Thanks Lurking Poster -nt- -:- Thurs, Nov 09, 2000 at 02:04:07 (GMT)

SongBird -:- Hans Jayanti 71 and the Jewels -:- Wed, Nov 08, 2000 at 11:43:37 (GMT)
__ Salam -:- I don't know about jewels, but I know that lardy -:- Wed, Nov 08, 2000 at 12:44:17 (GMT)
__ __ Cynthia -:- Speaking of jewels....what about the crown? -:- Wed, Nov 08, 2000 at 14:16:55 (GMT)
__ __ __ Bin Liner -:- This is a key to Pandora's box.... (nt) -:- Wed, Nov 08, 2000 at 20:50:27 (GMT)

Frodo -:- Why Thrid world country's -:- Wed, Nov 08, 2000 at 09:03:35 (GMT)
__ Purely Pragmatic -:- Private Investor Reasons -:- Wed, Nov 08, 2000 at 17:42:04 (GMT)
__ Jean-Michel -:- Here's why -:- Wed, Nov 08, 2000 at 11:34:45 (GMT)
__ AJW -:- Propagation in Africa -:- Wed, Nov 08, 2000 at 11:25:55 (GMT)
__ __ Salam -:- Propagation in Africa -:- Wed, Nov 08, 2000 at 11:47:41 (GMT)
__ __ __ AJW -:- Propagation in Africa -:- Wed, Nov 08, 2000 at 12:01:27 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Salam -:- This is the biggest racist remark I have heared -:- Wed, Nov 08, 2000 at 12:38:24 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ AJW -:- Salam you are a cashew nut. -:- Wed, Nov 08, 2000 at 16:09:55 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Salam -:- Salam you are a cashew nut. -:- Thurs, Nov 09, 2000 at 12:52:19 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ AJW -:- UK Tour -:- Fri, Nov 10, 2000 at 09:11:51 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Salam -:- Not until you refloat -:- Tues, Nov 14, 2000 at 18:01:00 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Jim -:- U say 'politically correct' with a straight face? -:- Thurs, Nov 09, 2000 at 16:06:52 (GMT)
__ hamzen -:- But don't forget China, Brazil and India -:- Wed, Nov 08, 2000 at 09:10:55 (GMT)
__ __ Marianne -:- Anth's not a racist -:- Wed, Nov 08, 2000 at 17:18:37 (GMT)
__ __ __ Cynthia -:- What She Said ^ :))) (nt) -:- Thurs, Nov 09, 2000 at 22:40:05 (GMT)

Jim -:- Janet 'tells' it like it is (repost) -:- Wed, Nov 08, 2000 at 03:59:07 (GMT)
__ shp -:- Reply to Janet -:- Thurs, Nov 09, 2000 at 18:53:43 (GMT)
__ __ Jim -:- Here's shp's one-sided scale again -:- Thurs, Nov 09, 2000 at 22:17:37 (GMT)
__ curious George -:- Janet 'tells' it like it is (repost) -:- Wed, Nov 08, 2000 at 18:25:05 (GMT)

Sir Dave -:- The OFFICIAL USA exit poll is HERE (ot) -:- Tues, Nov 07, 2000 at 19:57:19 (GMT)

Jim -:- Who said the fear-mongering's a thing of the past? -:- Tues, Nov 07, 2000 at 18:26:31 (GMT)
__ Cynthia -:- I would like to have a long talk with that guy... -:- Wed, Nov 08, 2000 at 14:59:45 (GMT)
__ ham -:- Upping the ante again I would say -:- Wed, Nov 08, 2000 at 08:36:33 (GMT)
__ Steve Quint -:- Who said puking's a thing of the past? -:- Wed, Nov 08, 2000 at 06:31:52 (GMT)
__ __ Jim -:- Stve, once you stop puking, you can start laughing -:- Wed, Nov 08, 2000 at 20:14:46 (GMT)
__ __ __ Steve Quint -:- Stve, once you stop puking, you can start laughing -:- Wed, Nov 08, 2000 at 20:56:00 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Jim -:- You DON'T think it's kind of funny? -:- Wed, Nov 08, 2000 at 21:06:48 (GMT)
__ Jim -:- If no one reads this fucker I'm going to repost it -:- Wed, Nov 08, 2000 at 04:01:35 (GMT)
__ __ Steve Quint -:- If you don't get nauseous from this sad song...... -:- Wed, Nov 08, 2000 at 07:05:35 (GMT)
__ __ Shattared glass -:- I did -:- Wed, Nov 08, 2000 at 05:33:56 (GMT)
__ __ __ Tim Matheson -:- I did -:- Sat, Nov 11, 2000 at 07:24:19 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Selene -:- testing What? nt -:- Sat, Nov 11, 2000 at 20:35:35 (GMT)
__ __ Salam -:- Yo, wa zup? -:- Wed, Nov 08, 2000 at 04:57:18 (GMT)
__ __ __ Jim -:- Yo, wa zup? -:- Wed, Nov 08, 2000 at 17:45:44 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Jerry -:- Yo, wa zup? -:- Thurs, Nov 09, 2000 at 14:51:57 (GMT)
__ Jerry -:- You're just so in your mind, Jim -:- Tues, Nov 07, 2000 at 19:19:41 (GMT)

Steve Quint -:- Elan Vital Constitutional Reform -:- Tues, Nov 07, 2000 at 17:05:25 (GMT)

Salam -:- Not so perfect -:- Tues, Nov 07, 2000 at 14:56:18 (GMT)


Date: Thurs, Nov 09, 2000 at 16:45:15 (GMT)
From: Cynthia
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: X-Apparently To:.......(On Topic)
Message:
Hello all,

I'm a bit weary from the political talk here, but it is an historical moment in US political history so please be patient.

In the meantime, I subscribed to EV's newsletter, and today's quote is a doozy. He talks about the mind and the whole thing is very convoluted. It's like....I need a translator.

I am curious about one thing though, when I open my email, the heading starts with X-Apparently To: and my email address, which is a yahoo address, not my personal email address.

I thought this was amusing, but wonder if this is how email newsletters are normally sent out. In my ISP mailbox, I've never seen this type of 'Addressee' before...even when I subscribe to newletters of interest to me.

Just wondering,
Cynthia

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Date: Thurs, Nov 09, 2000 at 20:56:17 (GMT)
From: a0aji
Email: None
To: Cynthia
Subject: X-Apparently To:.......(On Topic)
Message:
It is entirely an Internet thing, Cynthia, and has little to do with Elan Vital or the choices they made. I forget the exact reason, but basically the software will use 'Apparently' to when it can't get the best evidence possible, to convey there is some doubt of authenticity somewhere in the chain. I wish I could remember the details; it is easy enough for me to work them out when the time comes, but without a live example, I'm only able to mis-remember what circumstances cause this header to commonly arise.

At any rate, the X- headers are always ignored, officially. They are not meant to be machine-readable, for the most part. They are usually there for human readers to benefit from, when they need additional information the official header elements cannot or will not supply.

Also - the end-user can usually cause X- headers to be added to a message; the other headers are normally dictated by the superuser on that mail server and cannot be specified by the end-user in nonstandard ways. That might even work out to be the official technical definition of what an X- style header is: a header supplied by an end-user with a low-priveleged account.

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Date: Thurs, Nov 09, 2000 at 21:44:01 (GMT)
From: Cynthia
Email: None
To: a0aji
Subject: X-Apparently To:...(On Topic)
Message:
Thanks Chris,

I thought so, I just was amused by the X part. Thanks.

Cynthia

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Date: Fri, Nov 10, 2000 at 06:03:36 (GMT)
From: a0aji
Email: None
To: Cynthia
Subject: oic :) -nt-
Message:
yuk yuk
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Date: Thurs, Nov 09, 2000 at 17:00:43 (GMT)
From: Steve Quint
Email: the_avenger55@hotmail.com
To: Cynthia
Subject: Speaking of Translators
Message:
Speaking of translators, I was thinking that if Bush wins and gets together with Canada's Prime Minister Chretien, they're going to need an interpreter to understand each other.

By the way, the standard joke in Canada is that Chretien doesn't speak either official language. Listening to him speak English is just as hilarious as listening to comedians impersonate him. And he grew up in a small town so his French is a dialect.

Steve

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Date: Thurs, Nov 09, 2000 at 17:43:53 (GMT)
From: Cynthia
Email: None
To: Steve Quint
Subject: Speaking of Translators..I know what you mean
Message:
Hi Steve,

Our cable carries CBC and I watch it a lot. I especially like the show 'Canadian Royal Air Farce.' Often it's hard to 'get' jokes unless you know the politics there.

That comedy troup does great paradies and Chretien is particularly funny....

Best,
Cynthia

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Date: Thurs, Nov 09, 2000 at 18:10:50 (GMT)
From: Steve Quint
Email: the_avenger55@hotmail.com
To: Cynthia
Subject: Wow!
Message:
A soulmate! That's my favourite show!

Steve

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Date: Thurs, Nov 09, 2000 at 18:36:02 (GMT)
From: Cynthia
Email: None
To: Steve Quint
Subject: I love that show...
Message:
especially when they get that big 'ole cannon out and stuff it with all kinds of crap and shoot it at a picture.

Get Stuffed, the skits about the Queen and Queen Mother are hilarious! That comedy troup has been together for years and they are incredibly talented.

Good to have something in common, Steve!

Best,
Cynthia

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Date: Thurs, Nov 09, 2000 at 17:14:13 (GMT)
From: Steve Quint
Email: the_avenger55@hotmail.com
To: Everyone
Subject: Speaking of Translators and English
Message:
I'm finding American English harder and harder to understand. It's almost becoming a dialect. And I'm talking about network news people who are supposed to be the elite of American English speakers.

Steve

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Date: Thurs, Nov 09, 2000 at 07:49:25 (GMT)
From: Patrick
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: attn. Forum Admin.
Message:
I can't help feeling that there should be a link on this forum page to the Dettmers stuff.

I know a number of people who are interested in his unique (so far) and well written perspective. For them to come here for the first time to find Dettmer's most relevant and interesting posts is a little like looking for a needle in a haystack.

Whilst I can understand that it may be constructive that a certain amount of off topic discussion or general socializing goes on here, it would be a shame if the potency of the forum in it's role as a resource for people investigating Maharaji was lessened.

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Date: Thurs, Nov 09, 2000 at 16:29:28 (GMT)
From: la-ex
Email: None
To: Patrick
Subject: attn. Forum Admin./I agree totally
Message:
Just wanted to let you know that I agree totally with Patrick.

I think that there are a number of premies who might be willing to take a peek at this website.

Like Patrick said, it's not easily found (the link to the MD dialogues).

I think that an easy link to the MD dialogues could prove to be invaluable in directing a person (including media types) to the heart of the matter, especially since they are so well written, and from a well informed source, high in the ranks.

If people have to sort out things,especially some of the OT stuff on the forum, they might get discouraged and leave before they can find out the real stuff.
Many of these people are looking for an excuse to NOT look too deeply here, so if it is EASY to find and read, I think that it makes it far more potent.

Also, I think I missed some of the recent posts, because of the huge volume of OT stuff due to the election news....

If there was an easy link to the ongoing dialogues, it would be easy to stay informed on recent posts which you might have missed by not logging on for a day or two...

Thanks for your consideration,

La-ex

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Date: Thurs, Nov 09, 2000 at 21:44:35 (GMT)
From: Sir Dave
Email: None
To: la-ex
Subject: I've got most of it on my site
Message:

The Truth about Maharaji

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Date: Thurs, Nov 09, 2000 at 18:29:03 (GMT)
From: Jean-Michel
Email: None
To: la-ex
Subject: Heard your suggestions !
Message:
This new 'hot' stuff is advertised on the top left of the home page Home Page

and on the sitenews page What's New

It is not feasable for the moment to update all the pages, and specially the forum page everytime something happens.

I'm thinking of having all this website's pages in a navigation frame, I think I'm mastering the technology now, but then we'll have to think of the persons using browsers that don't handle frames, and that makes it really complicated ...... specially because this website is not static, and I don't have that much help to take care of this !!!

Beside this, there is the 'search' engine that takes you there in a second !!

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Date: Thurs, Nov 09, 2000 at 07:41:20 (GMT)
From: JTF
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: The Human need to believe!
Message:
Do we have a need to believe that someone actually cares about us-independent of their own needs? The political comments here the past week have made me wonder about this. I certainly am not comfortable having Bush or Gore make decisions that affect my life. I allowed myself to buy rawat's 'practical solution'....never again!
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Date: Fri, Nov 10, 2000 at 15:33:36 (GMT)
From: Salam
Email: None
To: JTF
Subject: The Human need to believe!
Message:
Unfortunatly that is the fact of life. But if you live in the USA you do not have to vote which I think is a cop out. If you do not say what you want, you'll never get waht you want.
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Date: Fri, Nov 10, 2000 at 17:56:07 (GMT)
From: JTF
Email: None
To: Salam
Subject: The Human need to believe!
Message:
implied in voter participation is your consent that some one is worthy of your vote(trust).
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Date: Thurs, Nov 09, 2000 at 05:34:32 (GMT)
From: Daneane
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: Toilet Paper
Message:
Okay, I got a stockpile. Be at my house tomorrow at 6p and we'll hit the Malibu estate.

You old farts are getting boring...can't someone start a new brouhaha and get the cult all riled up like again?

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Date: Thurs, Nov 09, 2000 at 11:50:28 (GMT)
From: jondon
Email: None
To: Daneane
Subject: Toilet Paper
Message:
Apparently they are a little riled regarding some info. that has been leaking across this forum. One of their own has loose lips.
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Date: Thurs, Nov 09, 2000 at 01:15:46 (GMT)
From: Marianne
Email: MarianneDB@aol.com
To: Rick and all
Subject: The premie therapist
Message:
Some of you will recall that a non-premie came here towards the end of last year to say that she had seen a therapist who used part of their sessions to discuss knowledge. The therapist also gave the non-premie videos and literature. The poster wanted to know what we thought about that.

I immediately jumped on the situation and said the therapist had behaved incorrectly, based on my experience with mental health experts in the context of my law practice. We had a bit of a debate about this situation on the forum.

The non-premie filed a formal complaint with the appropriate licensing board in that state. The board conducted an investigation and found that the therapist, a social worker, had violated the state rule that the therapist 'not engage in practices with a client that create an unacceptable risk of client harm or of impairing a social worker's objectivity or professional judgment. A social worker shall not act or fail to act in a way that, as judged by a reasonable social worker, inappropriately encourages the client to relate to the social worker outside of the boundaries of the professional relationship, or in a way that interferes with the client's ability to benefit from social work services.'

The social worker sent the client to a EV video event the social worker hosted. They also talked about knowledge for a substantial period of time during therapy sessions.

In any event, the investigation found that the social worker violated these rules of professional responsibility. I agree. I can't imagine a therapist referring someone in psychological distress to a cult.

Marianne

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Date: Fri, Nov 10, 2000 at 01:59:00 (GMT)
From: Peter Howie
Email: None
To: Marianne
Subject: The therapist got by client
Message:
Well done.

I've a colleague who is a psychologist and she had a client who was a premie. The premie client influenced her to take knowledge - you can imagine - continually bringing forward ideas about her search etc - anyway she didn't stay long and had worked out pretty quickly it was a cult. I was a bit trapped not wanting to bugger up her relationship with her premie client. I was enormously gratified that her own common sense and abilities had her leave.

Cheers

Peter Howie

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Date: Thurs, Nov 09, 2000 at 16:05:12 (GMT)
From: Ben Lurking
Email: None
To: Marianne
Subject: The premie therapist
Message:
Its bad enough that she took advantage of a patient but to be charged to be propagated to takes the cake.
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Date: Thurs, Nov 09, 2000 at 05:36:49 (GMT)
From: Loaf
Email: None
To: Marianne
Subject: Well done Marianne.
Message:
You have done a good - and possibly significant thing.
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Date: Thurs, Nov 09, 2000 at 02:37:37 (GMT)
From: Rick
Email: None
To: Marianne
Subject: The premie therapist
Message:
I'm not trying to stir anything up, Marianne, but...

I still find the lack of details troubling. For instance, were there any punitive measures? Did the investigating body have more details than the poster gave us last year? Can the poster sue the therapist? Did the investigating body recognize EV as a cult?

Of course I agree it's awful someone was referred to maharaji. My initial objection was that we didn't get to find out how it happened. And I found it mitigating that the therapist most likely didn't understand she was in a cult, and probably thought she was helping.

I've known therapists in the past who were premies (and some who weren't), and know that patients sometimes ask therapists about themselves. I just wasn't sure if that's how this thing had started.

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Date: Thurs, Nov 09, 2000 at 01:23:14 (GMT)
From: Selene
Email: None
To: Marianne
Subject: why was there a debate?
Message:
Makes sense to me. My former therapist kept trying to get me to those 'course in miracles' things and I thought even that was pushing her own beliefs on me, though I don't *think* that it's as harmful. But I had to get away from her it made me very uncomfortable that she wasn't more objective.
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Date: Thurs, Nov 09, 2000 at 16:08:35 (GMT)
From: Cynthia
Email: None
To: Marianne
Subject: Thanks, Marianne....
Message:
I was in on the discussions surrounding that person and I hope she's doing well.

Take care,
Cynthia

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Date: Wed, Nov 08, 2000 at 20:31:33 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: Shp and Dettmers -- what happened, Shppie?
Message:
In another good, clear post, MD answered Shppie's question about m possibly having a bit of a drinking problem AND being God's loyal servant as follows:

Sanford,

I am not going to respond to your question on the basis of your Noah story. You are free, of course, to believe whatever you want to about Noah, but I am not a religious person and I side with the others who suggested that all such stories are myths at best.

Maharaji, on the other hand, is no myth so I will assume you are sincere when you ask me if I “think it is even remotely possible that Maharaji, for all of his drinking, confrontational and apparent dysfunctional and abusive behavior, could still be a true servant of God despite his human frailties, and that his mission could still be what it was originally stated, to spread the Knowledge of God within to the world?”

My short answer is an emphatic “NO”. I don’t fault Maharaji for suffering from human frailties. I fault him for failing to recognize that he is as human as the rest of us and suffers from much more serious human frailties than most people. In his current state of mind, he is not capable of serving anybody but himself as he has been selfishly doing for years. If somehow he were to miraculously get in touch with his own humanity, he would first have to try and undo all of the damage he has done to the thousands of people he has deceived. But that would mean, among other things, giving up all of his ill-gotten gains by making reparations wherever possible. Thus, I think it is highly unlikely that he will ever, of his own accord, look himself in the mirror and face what he has done in the name of “spreading the knowledge of god.”

His day of reckoning will come, no doubt, but in the meantime, Sanford, my advice is to get the hell out of the trap you are in as soon as possible.

... to which all shp could say was that he'd be interested in MD's 'long' reply.

And that was the last of it.

Shp, it appears to me, that you're ducking out of this discussion here. You're not exactly the taciturn type. What happened? Normally, you've got all sorts of stuff to say. ALL sorts. Here you're noticeably quiet. Why? You're not all of a sudden experiencing the 'calm of the heart' instead of the 'chaos of the mind' are you?

Avoiding things, shppie?

Sure looks like it.

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Date: Thurs, Nov 09, 2000 at 01:10:45 (GMT)
From: shp
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: What do you mean 'what happened', Jim?
Message:
I don't owe you a predetermined and predicatable behavioral pattern within your timeframe. How dare you demand that I act and be a certain way on demand. I am bigger than the box you constantly try to put me in, but you just don't realize it. Is that any better than that which you accuse Maharaji of? Oppression is oppression. I can appreciate the fact that you and others here have felt that you were oppressed at the hands of Maharaji and/or his representatives. But I also know that I feel alot of oppression from you. There is no difference. Stop pretending to be the cold cruel ambivalent onlooker and/or the tough love deprogrammer. Just back off. You have always been pushy. I can feel your sleazy vibe through the seemingly innocent questions you pose to neubies, and I know what is going to happen next, every time. The dance, the strike, the venom, the paralysis, and so on. I have broken free of your trance to debate everything you want to debate. Find another one. I wised up. You even try to intimidate other exers whose ideas or ways you disagree with. Geez, Jim, it must be a heavy burden you carry. Take a break. No tailgating. Con cuidado, por favor.

The communication was between Michael Dettmers and myself with you looking on. Know your role.

When I have something more to say I will say it. Good evening.

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Date: Thurs, Nov 09, 2000 at 02:52:42 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: shp
Subject: Don't be a such weenie, shp -- repost
Message:
I don't owe you a predetermined and predicatable behavioral pattern within your timeframe. How dare you demand that I act and be a certain way on demand. I am bigger than the box you constantly try to put me in, but you just don't realize it.

Shp, this is an open forum dedicated, in large part anyway, to questioning and confronting the cult we were once in and from whose poisonous well you still draw deep draughts. There are no private threads, as you well know. It's all out in the open here and if you don't like it, too bad. Start your own forum or do whatever but this is how this place operates.

As far as what you 'owe', shp, you have the same continuing obligation, as do we all, to be clear, fair and responsive in your communication here. It's what people expect pretty well everywhere, well especially in discussion groups, and if you disappoint you're going to get called on it.

That's general. More specifically, people here are experienced in and sensitive to premies' efforts to avoid the pith and substance of any discussion that gets too close for comfort. Hardly any premie avoids being evasive this way and, ore specifically still, you are certainly one of the worst offenders.

But the thing about you, shppie, is that you just blab on and on and on anyway, preaching your stupid new age religious bubble talk whether anyone wants to hear it or not, when you feel like you're not cornered. So, with me at least, it's particularly noticeable, not to mention disappointing. when you clam up just when the conversation's getting interesting. In that respect you're like a card player who leaves the table rather than lose. Everyone hates a poor sport, shp. Me too.

As for your being bigger than this box or that box, give it up, you whiner. We're talking about responsive communication not your new age everything-goes indiscriminate way of talking. Again, if you don't like it, no apologies. Rather, get lost.

Is that any better than that which you accuse Maharaji of? Oppression is oppression. I can appreciate the fact that you and others here have felt that you were oppressed at the hands of Maharaji and/or his representatives. But I also know that I feel alot of oppression from you. There is no difference. Stop pretending to be the cold cruel ambivalent onlooker and/or the tough love deprogrammer. Just back off. You have always been pushy. I can feel your sleazy vibe through the seemingly innocent questions you pose to neubies, and I know what is going to happen next, every time. The dance, the strike, the venom, the paralysis, and so on. I have broken free of your trance to debate everything you want to debate. Find another one. I wised up. You even try to intimidate other exers whose ideas or ways you disagree with. Geez, Jim, it must be a heavy burden you carry. Take a break. No tailgating. Con cuidado, por favor.
The communication was between Michael Dettmers and myself with you looking on. Know your role.

Ever heard the word 'flailing', shp?

When I have something more to say I will say it. Good evening.

Very funny. You're like some comedian in an old slapstick silent movie. You fall falt on your face in some embarrassing moment but then you scramble back up on you feet, look around with an exaggerated look of dignity (hoping no one noticed, really), dust off your bowler and walk off in a 'stately' fashion.

You're too funny, shp. Too fucking funny!

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Date: Thurs, Nov 09, 2000 at 17:16:25 (GMT)
From: shp
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: You are not the director of this Forum or anyone
Message:
on it, except yourself. You are showing yourself for who you are by hassling me. Keep it up. I won't have to say a word about it. You will hang yourself with your own rope and alienate premies and ex-premies alike by your tactics.

As for me, I am neither folding nor walking away. I am not just picking out which socks to wear today. Maybe you make impulsive decisons based on emotions run rampant, mixed with mob psychology and hysteria. I am a bit more discriminating.

Keep on badgering me, JIm. See where it gets you. However I deal with this matter is how I will deal with it, but you will not have my head to mount in your den either way it goes. And you will still be Jim Heller. THAT is your business. Deal with it. You are the only person you can change. Remember?

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Date: Thurs, Nov 09, 2000 at 02:49:58 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: shp
Subject: Don't be such a weenie, shp
Message:
I don't owe you a predetermined and predicatable behavioral pattern within your timeframe. How dare you demand that I act and be a certain way on demand. I am bigger than the box you constantly try to put me in, but you just don't realize it.

Shp, this is an open forum dedicated, in large part anyway, to questioning and confronting the cult we were once in and from whose poisonous well you still draw deep draughts. There are no private threads, as you well know. It's all out in the open here and if you don't like it, too bad. Start your own forum or do whatever but this is how this place operates.

As far as what you 'owe', shp, you have the same continuing obligation, as do we all, to be clear, fair and responsive in your communication here. It's what people expect pretty well everywhere, well especially in discussion groups, and if you disappoint you're going to get called on it.

That's general. More specifically, people here are experienced in and sensitive to premies' efforts to avoid the pith and substance of any discussion that gets too close for comfort. Hardly any premie avoids being evasive this way and, ore specifically still, you are certainly one of the worst offenders.

But the thing about you, shppie, is that you just blab on and on and on anyway, preaching your stupid new age religious bubble talk whether anyone wants to hear it or not, when you feel like you're not cornered. So, with me at least, it's particularly noticeable, not to mention disappointing. when you clam up just when the conversation's getting interesting. In that respect you're like a card player who leaves the table rather than lose. Everyone hates a poor sport, shp. Me too.

As for your being bigger than this box or that box, give it up, you whiner. We're talking about responsive communication not your new age everything-goes indiscriminate way of talking. Again, if you don't like it, no apologies. Rather, get lost.

Is that any better than that which you accuse Maharaji of? Oppression is oppression. I can appreciate the fact that you and others here have felt that you were oppressed at the hands of Maharaji and/or his representatives. But I also know that I feel alot of oppression from you. There is no difference. Stop pretending to be the cold cruel ambivalent onlooker and/or the tough love deprogrammer. Just back off. You have always been pushy. I can feel your sleazy vibe through the seemingly innocent questions you pose to neubies, and I know what is going to happen next, every time. The dance, the strike, the venom, the paralysis, and so on. I have broken free of your trance to debate everything you want to debate. Find another one. I wised up. You even try to intimidate other exers whose ideas or ways you disagree with. Geez, Jim, it must be a heavy burden you carry. Take a break. No tailgating. Con cuidado, por favor.
The communication was between Michael Dettmers and myself with you looking on. Know your role.

Ever heard the word 'flailing', shp?

When I have something more to say I will say it. Good evening.

Very funny. You're like some comedian in an old slapstick silent movie. You fall falt on your face in some embarrassing moment but then you scramble back up on you feet, look around with an exaggerated look of dignity (hoping no one noticed, really), dust off your bowler and walk off in a 'stately' fashion.

You're too funny, shp. Too fucking funny!

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Date: Thurs, Nov 09, 2000 at 10:57:22 (GMT)
From: Erica
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Don't be such a hard bastard
Message:
Dear Jim,

I know I have fucked around with my identity in the past few weeks over my identity and I apologise for that. However, I have not been spinning my words and I have always been as honest as I know how, within the limitations of my own understanding.

Your tactics can be so cruel and your language so abusive. I watched shp being ripped apart here and I wonder at his fortitude at being able to keep coming back for more! Observing this Forum can become addictive but the one thing that keeps coming through for me is the embitteredness and love of abuse and politics!

Michael Dettmers' posts have only confirmed one thing for me. That, in the past at least, there has been a whole corporate structure comprised of people like MD who were making decisions on how M should be presented and how DLM/EV should be run.

It was people like MD and ashram residents that smelt of 'cult' for me and were the reason why I disengaged myself from organizational activities. I could never understand why there was always such a huge divide between what I understood from what M was saying and what I saw people in the organization doing. Thanks to Michael's posts I now understand.

Knowledge is a learning process, Jim, but it is about learning about oneself and developing some wisdom. I know that it is highly unlikely any real communion can come from this Forum if one does not think the same as everyone else here.

Personally, I don't really care whether someone is interested in K or not. It is the worth of the person that interests me. Alot of the people on here have commented that they do still sit down and practice and they do still receive some benefit from it. My advice would be focus on that. That is the whole point of what M has been doing for the past 30 years and that is his focus.

I don't know what happened to you to make you so bitter and twisted over this whole thing. I can bet my last dollar though that it wasn't anything that M personally ever did to you. From what I can gather here most people have been damaged by living lives they weren't happy with and by ideas and rules laid down by other people.

I will say it again, M has worked very hard over the years to break down the structures which arise that take the focus off K. He broke down the ashrams because they weren't working. Most of you that lived in the ashrams say how unhappy you were and yet instead of applauding his effort to disengage something that had become unhealthy that you were suffering from, you berate him for it.

I have always found that I have had to use my own judgement, instinct and wisdom to differentiate between M and Knowlege and the 'politics' and the 'politicians' that surround him. And I have to say, there is such a sweet freedom, once you have made that differentiation.

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Date: Sat, Nov 11, 2000 at 13:14:10 (GMT)
From: AJW
Email: None
To: Erica
Subject: Cult, Cult, Cult...
Message:
Cult, Cult, Cult...Cult, Cult, Cult...Cult, Cult, Cult...Cult, Cult, Cult...Cult, Cult, Cult...Cult, Cult, Cult...Cult, Cult, Cult...Cult, Cult, Cult...Cult, Cult, Cult...Cult, Cult, Cult...Cult, Cult, Cult...

Erica, you're in a cult.

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Date: Thurs, Nov 09, 2000 at 17:14:16 (GMT)
From: Way
Email: None
To: Erica
Subject: You really aren't listening, Erica
Message:
Erica,

We exes have left Maharaji because we do not believe that he is a Master, or even a worthy 'teacher.' We think he is a liar and a fraud who has been pretending to be a God-realized Master from the age of 8 years old.

The issue here is not whether we berate Maharaji for closing the ashrams - the issue is that he told his followers that he was God-incarnate and that we should fully dedicate our entire lives by living in the ashram.

The issue here is not whether there were certain premie organizers that made bad mistakes - the issue is that Maharaji himself made the incredibly horrible mistake of telling people he is the living Perfect Master, and he continues to do so.

The issue here is not what Michael Dettmers did in the past, but what he personally saw Mr. Rawat doing - smoking dope, addictively consuming alcohol and tobacco, verbally abusing people, buying luxury toys, lying to premies and forcing other premies to a code of silence, making horribly stupid financial decisions, being confused about what role to take, having marital problems, etc. In other words, being a very non-God-realized living Master. That is the issue.

The issue here is not Jim, and whether he is polite to shp or anyone else. The issue, may I remind you, is that Mr. Rawat is a fraud who is leading people to believe that they can obtain God's grace in their lives by following him as the Master.

The issue here is not whether Elan Vital is a cult. You obviously agree with us that it is, and you have understood that from many years ago. But the issue is that Maharaji and his followers is a cult, the supposedly enlightened Master bestowing his fake blessings on his ignorant followers is the cult.

The issue here is not whether it is good to meditate, and whether the four techniques are the right way to do it. Some people here meditate and some don't. Some use the techniques and some don't. But the issue is whether our experiences of meditation have anything at all to do with Mr. Rawat, and whether we should be grateful to him for our own connection to our own inner peace. Rawat lies when he leads people to believe that they need him in order to realize their highest potential.

It is obvious that you are not listening to what we are saying. It is obvious because of the advice that you offer us. You tell us to make the distinction between Maharaji and the politics that surround him. You actually advise us to simply focus on Knowledge, the way that you do, and the way that Maharaji has consistently told us to do for 30 years. Are you nuts? Have you not been listening at all? It is not the politics that we are objecting to (although we do), it is Maharaji that we are objecting to. Get it?!

If you think Mr. Rawat is such a wise teacher, then go to ELK and read all the wisdom you want. All the wisdom that is being simultaneously broadcast around the planet and translated into dozens of languages. Stuff like 'we all have eyes, but no two eyes are alike, we all have ears and noses, too, but they are all unique.' Powerful stuff, eh!? Go. Listen. Learn. From your wonderful enlightened master. Over and over again. But we have rejected that path. Understand?

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Date: Fri, Nov 10, 2000 at 02:19:50 (GMT)
From: Erica
Email: None
To: Way
Subject: A Master
Message:
Way, if you had truly rejected M and K in your life, you would not be participating in this forum.

To tell you my honest truth, I always find it hard to define who M is in my life. I was never comfortable with LOTU, Perfect Master always seemed a little pedantic and Master carries a lot of different connotations. I seldom introduce people to M but when I do and I am asked to define who he is; I say he is a teacher of inner wisdom and knowing and is a really valued contributor to my life (or words to that effect!).

As you so rightly point out, it is not about any of the social and/or religious 'crimes' he may have commited in anyone's eyes, it is about his worthiness in receiving the so-called 'adulation' of the brainwashed throng.

Now that totally depends on the appreciation one feels for the true worth one has for the connection with him. And that's such a personal and individual thing.

I guess it's just the same as any relationship you have with individuals throughout your life. There are friendships that endure and some that don't.

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Date: Fri, Nov 10, 2000 at 21:38:38 (GMT)
From: Way
Email: None
To: Erica
Subject: Response to:A Master
Message:
Erica,

I don't understand your comment about my participation here. But since you made a personal comment, I am wondering if you read my journey entry. If you read it, you will know that I have not rejected the pursuit of an inner knowledge. It still occupies me just as much as it did before my premie days ever started. But that, too, is not the issue.

What I was trying to accomplish by my post to you was to have the discussion with you go beyond all the various side-issues about money and instructors and drinking alcohol, etc. and bring the discussion to the central issue that basically devides premies and ex-premies, that divides you and me. That issue is that Mr. Rawat makes a claim about who he is and what he can give to people. Premies accept the claim. Ex-premies now reject the claim.

From what you now say, it seems that you are honest with people when they ask you about Maharaji. The words you use to describe him are basically true, he is, afterall, a teacher of inner wisdom, just as you say he is, no argument. And when you say you value him, again that must be true. And what you go on to say is also true, that it is a personal and individual thing whether one appreciates Mr. Rawat or not. And true again, it is somewhat similar to other interpersonal relationships that we have in life.

But Erica, all those points that you now make still end up begging the question!! What distinquishes premies and ex-premies is none of those things. You can make similar true statements about Mr. Rawat from now till doomsday. For instance, you could say that he is very dedicated to spreading his message. Or that there is a good feeling when one practices Knowledge. On and on and on. All true.

So instead of argueing about things that don't change anybody's position, why don't we discuss the basic difference between us? If you don't yet understand what that basic difference is, I will spell it out for you. You continually look toward Mr. Rawat for God's grace. I don't. You give Mr. Rawat the benefit of the doubt that he is telling people the truth. I don't.

The thing that matters is what Mr. Rawat says about himself, not what you say about him. The thing that matters is what he is doing and saying to his students. Last week, he got up on that stage as the focus for thousands of his students. He told them that if they are interested in Knowledge of God, then they must depend upon him, the Master. All the students focused on him. They listened to his words, and then they sang divine love songs to him. They felt a feeling of love. They know that feeling arises from within them, but Mr. Rawat as the Master is the necessary trigger of that feeling for them. He is the Master of that feeling. It is His Knowledge. After the program, the dependent relationship between Master and student is continued as strongly and as consistently as possible, through satellite feeds of the Master.

Mr. Rawat was eight years olds when he began his reign as the Master giver of God's grace. From that time till now, he has never stopped his reign. He has changed some of the terminology to accomodate people's cultural concepts, but he has not changed his basic claim.

Premies go to Delhi, or go to satellite feeds to be filled with that love of God that the Master brings them. They have learned that it is enough for them to remain a student their whole lives as long as they have their Master to fill them with that feeling. They no longer look toward the real source of love. They no longer credit God for their feeling of love. They credit the Master. The source of love has been stolen. A personality cult has been created. The students have become devotees of some human being who they don't even know, some stranger, and they have forgotten their own soul, and the maker of their own soul.

Erica, it is impossible for you to EVER know Mr. Rawat, or
who he is, or what he does in private or if he is telling the truth. Impossible. But it is possible for you to know yourself!
The difference between you and me, Erica, has nothing to do with God, or Truth, or the Knowledge of all Knowledges. The difference is that you continually look toward Mr. Rawat to show you those things.

And I don't.

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Date: Mon, Nov 13, 2000 at 19:26:55 (GMT)
From: hal
Email: None
To: Way
Subject: Extremely well put Way , as usual ! nt
Message:
gdsg
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Date: Fri, Nov 10, 2000 at 06:35:44 (GMT)
From: Monmot
Email: None
To: Erica
Subject: Whoa, Erica, Hold Your Horses There...
Message:
Way, if you had truly rejected M and K in your life, you would not be participating in this forum.

Aren't we being a bit hypocritical here, Erica? Just what are you doing here? It appears you're so nearsighted, you can't even see what you yourself are doing.

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Date: Fri, Nov 10, 2000 at 02:47:31 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Erica
Subject: For a girl who's not 'sneaking off' ............
Message:
Where's my answer, Erica?
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Date: Thurs, Nov 09, 2000 at 23:44:44 (GMT)
From: Nigel
Email: None
To: Way
Subject: shp: read Way's post three times very slowly (nt)
Message:
nt
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Date: Fri, Nov 10, 2000 at 00:01:48 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Nigel
Subject: Finally, premies, proof of ex-premie brainwashing!
Message:
Okay, now I really am going down......
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Date: Thurs, Nov 09, 2000 at 18:05:58 (GMT)
From: Jerry
Email: None
To: Way
Subject: Good post, Way
Message:
And you're right. I doubt Erica heard a word of it.
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Date: Thurs, Nov 09, 2000 at 15:54:44 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Erica
Subject: That simply is NOT true (i.e. Fuck off)
Message:
What nonsense you're spouting, Erica! But how could one even begin to try to get through to someone like you? You're in a dream. I could spend five minutes with anyone in the world and show them in seconds how Maharaji started from X, moved to Y, PRETENDED to move to Z and really is still doing some of that same old X shit. They'd get it because it's so fucking obvious.

But you? You're in a cult and have no ability at all to see the situation clearly. For example, all it takes is a quick look at the old quotes section on this site (under 'DLM / EV Papers') to see that EV is now, today, clearly, absolutely lying about the past. But you can't see that because to see that would be to see too much.

Your plea is a plea of weakness. Your common bond with people like shp is a bond of weakness. Frankly, you guys are like smiley-face zombies. There's no reasoning upstairs, nothing but weak, fractured parotting of your cult leader. You're asleep and when you come here you're going to hear it. Why? Because some of us are offended by you and what you've let yourselves become. Dishonest, snivelly, wilfully stupid.

Tell me, ERica, if you posted here for the next three years will you ever once contribute an intelligent thought or honest, brave and independent observation? I'm afraid the chances of that being true are incredibly small. What's more likely is that you, like shp, will generate thousands of words of nonsense, that's how disengaged you are from the truth.

So I guess the bottom line is that if you don't like it, go read some Expressions. Then, if that doesn't quite do it for you, go read some Wit and Wisdom. That's what you want, go for it. But don't try this revisionist bullshit here. It won't work.

By the way, if you respond to this, please respond specifically to the EV FAQ. EV says Maharaji never claimed to be God. The quotes section here .....

Hey, I remember! You and I were already talking about this then you snuck away! Of course, how could I forget?

Alright, Erica, you know damn well what I'm talking about. WE were in the midst of discussing it last week, weren't we? Do you now adnit that Maharaji claimed to be God? Forget about how young he was or anything of the sort. Did he or didn't he?

Next question: do you see where EV categorically, without qualification, denies that he ever claimed anything of the sort?

Next question: Is EV telling the truth or not?

If you can't answer these questions simply, directly, honestly, maybe you shouldn't be partaking of any discussion here. You're just not ready.

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Date: Thurs, Nov 09, 2000 at 17:52:18 (GMT)
From: Erica
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: I didn't sneak off!
Message:
I didn't sneak off, Jim, and as you do not know me at all, it seems incredibly immature of you that you should resort to personal insults whenever someone comes on who is coming from a different perspective.

I went to the enjoyinglife site yesterday for the first time after reading your wonderful reporting of the recent event in Delhi!! I have to say this - you are the first person to inspire me to even go there and check it out.

I even went in to the FAQ's and read the answer to whether M had claimed to be God incarnate. I thought the answer was a totally valid one. There was so much 'spiritual' Hindi connotations put on to Knowledge and there was indeed a need to change the languaging as the way things are expressed in India can be misinterpreted and misunderstood here in the West. Once again we are dealing with cultural semantics.

Jim, I am not trying to score points or 'win' anything here, it all started out just as a bit of fun. I just think it is rather interesting that altho' you so vehemently express your loathing for M and K you can't leave it alone. Any therapist would definitely advise you to let go and move on, it can only be unhealthy to be so dedicated to spewing out tirades of abuse.

I was there in the past and I have somehow managed to get through the past 27 years relatively unscathed. Any wounds I have had to heal were inflicted by unconcious, ignorant and selfish people, never M himself.

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Date: Thurs, Nov 09, 2000 at 21:17:27 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Erica
Subject: You are simply lying -- AND YOU KNOW IT!!!!
Message:
Erica,

I don't know what you're trying to prove here but one thing is clear: EV lied in its FAQ.

Did Maharaji claim to be God? Yes, of course he did. You can try to explain it away however you wish but the fact is he did. There's abundant proof on this very website and lots more where that came from.

Does EV say that he never claimed to be God? Yes.

Are you able to think even slightly clearly? To not mis up issues to confuse? I'm not asking you about what Maharaji meant when he claimed to be God. I'm not asking you why he claimed to be God. I'm not asking you why he stopped claiming to be God (if at all) or when. Do you understand? I'm not talking aobut any of that so you can quit talking about it too please.

I'm talking about this one simple point. And that point is that EV is lying; Maharaji did indeed claim to be God.

Now, will you admit that or not? Yes or no? It's a very straightforward question. A child could understand it. Yes or no?

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Date: Fri, Nov 10, 2000 at 20:48:34 (GMT)
From: Erica
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: No 'intentional' lies ....
Message:
Hey Jim, oh relentless one ....

I cannot answer your question. Not because I am avoiding it but because I really don't know. I have never, personally, heard, him say he is God (whatever that actually means).

I know you have done meticulous research and can back up all your claims with quotes to say he has proclaimed that the Master is one with God. Being 'one with' may not mean 'being god', but who really knows? I mean all we are really doing is defining words, aren't we?

In my experience of what I would describe as God, if push came to shove, there are no words that come near to describing it. It has only existed in the realms of my personal experience and when I have truly touched upon it I have become speechless and in awe.

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Date: Thurs, Nov 09, 2000 at 21:40:16 (GMT)
From: Susan
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: You are simply lying -- AND YOU KNOW IT!!!!
Message:
the way the cult deals with this is exactly like Clinton saying a BJ isn't sexual relations.

I do not recall Rawat saying 'I am God' in those words.

But he claimed to be everything one usually associates with God

God: some definitions

the being which made the universe, the Earth and its people and is believed to have an effect on all things

( our Lord is the maker, of all things created, he keeps them and brings them all home to His word. Our Lord is the Superior Power in Person, I bow down before such a wonderful Lord

Did you know that Michael Dettmers, Bob Mishler and any other PAM who has ever left all held Rawat down and MADE him sit there and smile as we sang that song to him.? It is all their fault, and Rawat was such a victim of thier concepts )

the supernatural being conceived as the perfect and omnipotent and omniscient originator and ruler of the universe; the object of worship in monotheistic religions

(hmmm...omnisceint, omnipotent...isn't there a word missing here......ah Rawat never said he was God because he said he was omniscient, ompotent and OMNIPRESENT...this def only has two of the things. And president Clinton said that because he was the recipient of the blow job and it was her lips coming in contact with the dick of the deponant that it was not sexual relations)

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Date: Thurs, Nov 09, 2000 at 21:58:14 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Susan
Subject: It's even stronger than that
Message:
Who is Guru? The highest manifestation of God is Guru.

is just one of the quotes which proves the point beyond dispute.

Remember, Guru is God.

is another.

Both of these are posted on this website (the sedond is from the Alta Loma satsang in L.A.). They were put there to settle the question once and for all. Some premies who weren't around back then might have sincerely wondered about this. Many premies who were there, have pretended to wonder about this. But these quotes handily resolve the matter. EV is lying.

The Clinton analogy is apt for a whole lot of second-tier evidence that Maharaji claimed to be God for all the reasons you offer. But it's even simpler than that. It's as if Clinton was actually found fucking Ms. Lewis, er, I mean Lewinski. This is more than a blowjob. There's nothing marginal about Maharaji's claim to be God. There's nothing that has to be interpreted in quotes such as those above. There's nothing but the blatant truth which is that EV's lying.

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Date: Thurs, Nov 09, 2000 at 22:04:34 (GMT)
From: Susan
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: you are right
Message:
I just have a hard time trying to grasp what they tell themselves when premies, and Rawat, say these things.
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Date: Thurs, Nov 09, 2000 at 19:27:54 (GMT)
From: Susan
Email: None
To: Erica
Subject: this is how Rawat uses his PAMs
Message:
infomation about Jagdeo

important information from Jethro

my letter to EV and the response

Dear Erica,

Your responses here have struck a real chord in me. Because you are parroting exactly what your Master wants you to parrot and exactly what so many premies parrot whenever Rawat is criticized. It is revolting. Please read the links I have enclosed carefully. And with an open heart. Open to the truth.

Rawat uses the people around him, people who have devoted years of their lives, and often with the people close to him, a great deal of money, to be close. What do they get in return? They get to be Marcia Leitner, doing the service of writing me back. I actually think Marcia may have some decency in her, but her decency is so at odds with the cult she is in that all she could do was get the EV faq about Jagdeo taken down.

Or they get to be Randy Prouty and Judy Osborne, who have both found themselves in the position of having remarkably similar terrible powers of recall. Neither of them remember my telling them about Jagdeo, in 1977 and 1982/3 respectively. They don't apparently remember telling me they told Guru Maharaj Ji as he was then known either. Judy doesn't I guess recall assuring me that when she told Rawat about me that Rawat said he was 'glad it was not a new incident' he had already been told about this one. These two have been given the opportunity to serve their master, and your master, in a way that most of you PWK's could only dream. They are 'forgetting' for him.

If it all comes out worse, what would happen Erica? Do you think he would back them up the way they are protecting him?( They are protecting Jagdeo too, but that is just an unfortunate thing they have to do to protect their master ) . Rawat would THROW them to the wolves. Let all the premies be mad at THEM for how they handled it. He would let the mishanding of this be Randy's fault, Judy's fault, and now Glen and Marcia's fault. And yes, they are responsible for 'not remembering'. But they are cult members, and they are doing it for their master.

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Date: Thurs, Nov 09, 2000 at 22:23:27 (GMT)
From: Cynthia
Email: None
To: Susan
Subject: To Susan.....
Message:
Hi Susan,

I didn't come back to the forum until recently and have been trying to both read the forum and catch up on the site's contents. I missed your forum posts from September.

Susan, you were brave, courageous, and articulate in your letter to M. I just don't know how you restrained yourself from blasting him.

After I read all of the links you placed above, I jumped in my car and took a drive. I was in disbelief at the answer you got from EV. I cried for you, Abi, and all the many other children that bastard jagdo hurt.

Your post above to 'Erica' was also very helpful to me. That selected 'forgetfulness' is certainly a cult symptom, and you explained it very well.

At this point, I don't even want to call M a person anymore. M was/is in collusion with jagdeo and anyone else who continue in their efforts to cover all of this up. I'm a bit less forgiving that you about the people who lie and forget for M.

Yet, It is his cult and he bears the responsibility.

I hope you're doing okay,
Be well,
Cynthia

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Date: Fri, Nov 10, 2000 at 17:41:53 (GMT)
From: Susan
Email: None
To: Cynthia
Subject: thanks Cynthia
Message:
It was a pretty intense time for me, trying to deal with the FAQ. It was a very sickening feeling to read something that referred to me on the EV site and to have it imply that I am unwilling to come forward or help made me furious.

Have you read the letter Michael got from EV's Terry Yingling? If not you should. In it she implies that if I wanted more from them I should have met with them. Well, I did not think I should have to lay out for them what the right thing is to do. Anyone with a brain can see what they should do. I did say that I would meet with them, with a witness, if they wanted to. But she implies that if I wanted something more from them I should have met with them. I think they should do more, a lot more, but I am not going to request a meeting. They can ask me for a meeting if they want that. I was very clear about that.

Thank you, and I am fine. I hope you are too.

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Date: Fri, Nov 10, 2000 at 19:01:48 (GMT)
From: Katie
Email: None
To: Susan and CYnthia
Subject: Terry Yingling is scary
Message:
Not only because of the letter she wrote to Michael, although that was scary enough. She is actively engaged in trying to find out the identity of certain ex-premies who post on this forum under pseudonyms. Just doing her job, I guess.

BTW, happy birthday, Cynthia!

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Date: Fri, Nov 10, 2000 at 19:50:59 (GMT)
From: Susan
Email: None
To: Katie
Subject: oh my God
Message:
Katie, can you post how you come to know this on the forum? That is quite scary. Not that I am suprised that they engage in the sort of sleuthing.
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Date: Fri, Nov 10, 2000 at 20:04:58 (GMT)
From: Katie
Email: None
To: Susan
Subject: oh my God
Message:
Hi Susan -
I can't say; hope my credibility is enough :). And I should have said she is 'apparently' engaged in this kind of behavior just to protect my ass (although I could prove my allegations if necessary.)

I guess we should be flattered that the higher-ups in EV pay attention to our silly little forum.

Love,
Katie

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Date: Fri, Nov 10, 2000 at 20:11:40 (GMT)
From: Susan
Email: None
To: Katie
Subject: your credibility is 100% with me
Message:
I just thought the story if how you know this would be interesting...I do not doubt for a sec that it is true.

I do not need to know either, just was curious :)

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Date: Fri, Nov 10, 2000 at 18:40:42 (GMT)
From: Cynthia
Email: None
To: Susan
Subject: To Susan and It's my Birthday!!
Message:
Hi,

I did read Yingling's letter, the same cold premie blaming crap. They don't want that can of worms opened--evidence removal of that particular faq.

I've been spending more time reading the site because there's a lot I'm missed.

But...today is my birthday, so I'm taking the day of from the forum to celerate. Who knows? I may be back, later:))

The moon was huge last night, will be full tomorrow. My name means Goddess of the Moon, and I'm a double scorpio (I'm not an astrology buff, but have had my chart done in the past).

I'm glad to hear you're doing fine, Susan. I'm okay, too.

Best,
Cynthia


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Date: Fri, Nov 10, 2000 at 18:43:36 (GMT)
From: Susan
Email: None
To: Cynthia
Subject: Happy Birthday! (nt)
Message:
nt
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Date: Thurs, Nov 09, 2000 at 19:33:51 (GMT)
From: Susan
Email: None
To: Susan
Subject: throw...throw...throw.....( where is my brain !)nt
Message:
in Maui
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Date: Thurs, Nov 09, 2000 at 19:55:04 (GMT)
From: Forum Administrator
Email: None
To: Susan
Subject: typo now fixed (nt)
Message:
nt
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Date: Thurs, Nov 09, 2000 at 20:01:13 (GMT)
From: Susan
Email: None
To: Forum Administrator
Subject: thanks!!!! (nt)
Message:
nt
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Date: Thurs, Nov 09, 2000 at 18:16:43 (GMT)
From: Jerry
Email: None
To: Erica
Subject: I didn't sneak off!
Message:
There was so much 'spiritual' Hindi connotations put on to Knowledge and there was indeed a need to change the languaging as the way things are expressed in India can be misinterpreted and misunderstood here in the West.

Yes, there was a need for that, Erica. But let's not deny the role Maharaji played in bringing over the hindu baggage with him. He's not the innocent you make him out to be. And he's still emphasizing the 'importance' of a master. As if.

You like to meditate? Fine. Why do you need a master to do that?

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Date: Wed, Nov 08, 2000 at 23:13:30 (GMT)
From: Michael Dettmers
Email: dettmers@gylanix.com
To: Shp
Subject: Shp and Dettmers -- what happened, Shppie?
Message:
Sanford,

'NO' was my short reply. The rest of my post was my longer answer. I've nothing more to say.

Michael

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Date: Thurs, Nov 09, 2000 at 17:31:44 (GMT)
From: shp
Email: None
To: Michael Dettmers
Subject: To Michael
Message:
Michael,

I just wanted to put in a few more words of thanks to you for the time and the reach you must have had to go to in order to say all these things you said at my request and the requests of others here.

I am not prepared to say more at this time, but I wanted you to know that your posts to me were appreciated. As I am sure you are very well aware by your obvious command of your own communications skills, online emotions and your own experiences, I have other things to consider besides your input and must exercise as much wisdom, insight, intuition and all the other attributes that will allow me to see the highest truth through my own eyes, and not just through the words of premies who say one thing and ex-premies who say the opposite. I have to have my own experience. Thank you again for your communication and care to me.

Sanford

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Date: Thurs, Nov 09, 2000 at 21:28:11 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: shp
Subject: Translation?
Message:
I love it, shppie. Here's how I read your post:

Dear Michael,

Gulp! I'm not sure exactly what to say but I know I should probably say something. After all, I asked you a 'sincere' question and you gave me what I can only assume was a 'sincere' answer. Everyone seems to think I like to talk a lot so I can see how my further silence here seems a bit peculiar. Maybe if I just put on my Politeness Man costume and riff a bit that will suffice. Huh, Mike? Coudl you give me this one?

Anyway, you know as well as I do that there's no way I'm going to let a few facts and real-life observations get in the way of my fuzzy, new-age adherence to this cult. Come on, Mike, be reasonable. I'm shp. Haven't you read my posts? Those who know me best know that that just ain't on, I'm afraid. I'm shp.

What I can tell you, though, is that I will hide in this silly cult notion of 'experience'. As you can see, I'm braced against all reason. I've uttered the magic phrase, 'I must have my own experience'. And you know as well as I do that that will protect me from anything you or any other ex-premie could ever throw at me.

So nice try, Mike. Please don't take it personally if I'm not swayed by YOUR experience. Even though I asked, I was only doing that because I like to pretend, at times, to have something akin to an open mind. But, Mike, I'm shp and I didn't get this way overnight.

There, can I go now? Pretty cool perfomance, huh?

Jai Sat Chit Anand.

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Date: Thurs, Nov 09, 2000 at 22:29:27 (GMT)
From: shp
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: YOUR translation, in a convoluted and twisted mind
Message:
You are the typical stunted adolescent (sorry kids) obnoxious jerk, disguised as a man, complete with vocabulary, degree, suit, job and all, who never personally grew up. You can pleasure yourself with with your own stupid words and scenarios, which probably allows you more time away from the bathroom.

The goat is tied up for the night.

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Date: Tues, Nov 14, 2000 at 07:58:14 (GMT)
From: Hal
Email: None
To: shp
Subject: YOUR translation, in a convoluted and twisted mind
Message:
Hey Sandy,

Getting close to enlightenment involves being able to laugh at oneself and ones ideas. You seem to take yourself and your ideas rather seriously no?

Hal

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Date: Thurs, Nov 09, 2000 at 22:36:42 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: shp
Subject: I'll take that as a compliment?
Message:
Shp,

A little sizzle from you just means that the iron's hot. You know that. So thanks for the compliment. You the man, shppie.

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Date: Thurs, Nov 09, 2000 at 23:31:44 (GMT)
From: shp
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Dealing with an overgrown kid named Jim.
Message:
You are trying to set up a no-win situation, if I respond to you it's a sizzle, if I ignore you it's a sizzle....What is sizzling is your brain!

What you fail to realize is that this is not about YOU or ME.
Try as you will, you are not the center of attention here, no matter how hard you try.

I would like to be a fly on the wall (figuratively) when you see your analyst, counselor, or trusted confidante. (If you don't have one, I suggest it.) It would be very interesting to know what drives you with such a frenzy about this particular aspect of your life.

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Date: Thurs, Nov 09, 2000 at 00:55:53 (GMT)
From: shp
Email: None
To: Michael Dettmers
Subject: Thank you for your time and information. (nt)
Message:
thanksreally
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Date: Thurs, Nov 09, 2000 at 16:18:07 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: shp
Subject: OK, shp ... your turn now
Message:
What's your excuse now, shppie?

MD's given you his answer, there's nothing more. What do you have to say in reply?

Or has the Hamster finally got your tongue?

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Date: Thurs, Nov 09, 2000 at 01:03:17 (GMT)
From: Jerry
Email: None
To: shp
Subject: What were you hoping for?
Message:
Really, shp. What was it that Michael didn't say in his first reply, that you were hoping he would say in a longer one?
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Date: Thurs, Nov 09, 2000 at 12:40:23 (GMT)
From: Salam
Email: None
To: Jerry
Subject: What were you hoping for?
Message:
Give the guy some slack will you. I do not know what is going inside shp head, but he is entiteld for his questioning. Pushing him of the edge is not going to help either. If shp wants to change or not that is his choice. I think the washing is on the line and there is nothing to hide after MD's reveling posts.
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Date: Thurs, Nov 09, 2000 at 16:03:38 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Salam
Subject: Give YOURSELF some slack
Message:
Salam,

What you have to remember is that shp will go on and on and on and on bleating forever on his new-age pulpit. Then he appraches MD and starts a discussion. MD answers and shp tursn silent. Sorry, Salam, but if you'd put up with this guy as long as we have you'd be pretty unsatisfied watching him dummy up right here and now.

It's like a chess game. Shp's been moving his silly pieces all over the board and drawing us into playing with him for years. Now he's finally cornered and it's his move. 'Move, already' is the feeling. Move or quit playing.

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Date: Thurs, Nov 09, 2000 at 17:44:49 (GMT)
From: shp
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: I didn't notice any egg-timers or clocks here.
Message:
So Jim, you want it YOUR WAY. Hold the pickles, hold the lettuce, special orders don't upset us! You want a Burger King Forum, a microwave universe, an instant crop of ex-prmeies just by giving them one or two of your darshans. And if it doesn't happen YOUR WAY, there is obviously something wrong with the other party, always. It is you who should have your own Forum. You are just too evolved and clear for the rest of us.

Don't you ever take more time on some of your life situations or cases than others? Doesn't anything slow your fast mouth down to be more thoughtful? You bust me for doing just that, but that is really a sign of something good, and you crack on me for it. Go ahead. Maybe that's why you could leave Maharaji with such a glib tongue, maybe you didn't go very deep in the first place. And everyone is supposed to behave like you or they are fucked up, right? Maybe you didn't really invest alot (deep down inside, were you always the skeptic, even in the ashram...did you ever really give it ALL up, really, ever?)

Anyone with any brains and heart will see you for who you are and what you are doing here and they will need no persuasion from me or anyone else to come to their conclusions. I'd rather be a premie with a good heart than be you, whatever comes along with that. And you can hold your own pickle in the meantime.

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Date: Thurs, Nov 09, 2000 at 21:53:14 (GMT)
From: Susan
Email: None
To: shp
Subject: I don't care if you percolate at Burger King
Message:
or if you are having a slow five course meal. I also think this does take time. But, you have been around here awhile and seen a lot before. If what Michael is saying is your final 'drip' I will be very happy for you. It is painful in a way SHP but a swear getting out is like getting your soul back from the devil.
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Date: Thurs, Nov 09, 2000 at 23:56:15 (GMT)
From: Salam
Email: None
To: Susan
Subject: Who we're gonna bash if shp changes his mind?
Message:
Through the time that I have spent here (6 months?) I have read most of what shp has posted. OK he is a premie, but I have not detected any dogma in him, Not like Mili, which I think is a total idiot, or that shroom or even some of the occasional lurking premie posters. I still think that shp is a bum for wanting to find a way out of it. Looks like a checkmate is approaching, but if he is playing a chess game then each player should take his time to make his next move. I do not think badgering the witness is the way to go. Well this is what I think anyway. But shp has a good snappy mouth and he can defend himself.
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Date: Wed, Nov 08, 2000 at 19:41:18 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: I feel like I'm missing the party of the century
Message:
This is a report from ELK. God, and I could hve gone too if only I'd have booked the time off, saved a bit -- oh, and had plastic surgery, I guess:

In the 20 years since Maharaji first addressed an audience here at the Sri Sant Yogashram in Delhi, many things have changed. Those who travel here often are accustomed to finding big improvements in the facilities, each time they return. They are also accustomed to a familiar routine. Each evening, just before sunset, the bhajans play, Maharaji speaks, more bhajans play... and then they all float away home, moved and inspired.

Last night brought a break with tradition. Music, not just played on sitars... but on guitars. Some people, sitting in the westerners' area were visibly moved to tears as they listened to Dayalata and her multi-cultural rock back-up band play favourite songs in such an exotic environment.

Maharaji began his address by inviting his audience to reflect on how much they have in common as human beings... and then to consider the tiny differences on which people base their sense of individuality.

We all have eyes, yet no two eyes are ever the same. We all have lips, teeth and ears too. Yet they are unique.

He went on to suggest that in their hearts, all the people of this earth want only one thing: to be happy.

'Calm,' he said, 'Resides in the heart, while chaos resides in the mind. Respect and humility live in the heart, pride and selfishness live in the mind. If you really want to know joy, truth and happiness, you don't have to get anything or make anything or buy anything... you merely need to get rid of something. A curtain; a barrier to inner awareness. To remove this, all we have to do is be willing to open ourselves up to the joy that dwells in our heart.'

Maharaji went on to offer a thought provoking view of history.

Once a leaf is formed on a tree, it is inevitable that eventually, it will come slowly floating back to the earth. The tree itself, no matter how high it grows, must one day come back to the ground. Buildings too, don't last forever. They, he explained, are made of stones. Those stones, in turn are made of dust. Sooner or later, they must become dust once more. Jokingly, he suggested, that university professors could bring a pot of dust to show their students and explain to them that THIS is the essence of all history!

Observing that people too, are made from that same dust, he likened the force of creation to a potter. He suggested that human beings are like dolls created from the clay of the earth. These dolls can speak, dance, marry, fight, tell the truth or tell lies - and they are dolls with a huge sense of self importance. They see dust or clay - and they consider it to be dirt. They are repelled by it. They forget that their own body is created from this same dust.

It is the magical gift of breath, Maharaji pointed out, that turns those dolls from bits of dust to living beings. Through the gift of Knowledge, we can recognise this - and appreciate the existence of the eternal. Towards the end of his address, Maharaji shared a memory from his childhood. 'When I was small, we had a little dog called Tommy. He was always biting, barking and chasing people. But when my father came into the room he would be totally quiet and still. One day Tommy found a mirror and started barking at his reflection like crazy. First, he got scared of himself and then, he got angry with himself. Because he didn't recognise himself! It went on for two whole days. People get themselves into just such a state when they try to understand life through their intellect rather than through their heart...'

* All the addresses at this event will be broadcast via satellite to the rest of the world over the next few days.

Sweet memories

These short interviews are with people who received Knowledge from Sri Maharaj Ji.

Nanki Bai was born in 1925 and received Knowledge from Shri Hans Ji Maharaj on 4 February 1966. She remembers him fondly: 'Sri Maharaj Ji spoke so sweetly that sometimes, when I listened, I felt that my heart would melt, but I feel the same - and even more - when I listen to Maharaji.

'He gives me all I need and inspires so much love. I hope that I will keep this experience with me always.

'My heart is blossoming today as Maharaji is honouring his father and master. I have no words to describe my experience. For me there never has been, never was, never will be a master like Maharaji.'

Rama Chandar Bhandar is now retired and at 86 is enjoying his life here at the ashram. 'I received Knowledge from Sri Maharaj Ji in 1962. After that I got to know him. I would speak with him quite a lot in the years to come.

'I had one regret, which I asked him about. It was that I didn't get a chance to participate. But he told me I would have plenty of opportunity one day.

'And it came true. I worked for the government in their horticultural department for many years and then came to the ashram in 1983 and started to take care of all the plants. So my chance to participate was by helping as a mali (gardener) in the ashram.

'When I think of Hans Ji Maharaj I feel so happy but also, close to tears. 'He used to sing a song: 'This life is like a two day festival...' And at the age of 86 I really understand this song. I feel such joy today as Maharaji honours his father. The real heaven is here, now.'

Four sisters, Shanta Devi, Jamuna Devi, Ganga Devi and Uma Devi all received Knowledge from Sri Hans Ji Maharaj.

Jamuna Devi lives here at the ashram and works in the kitchens. The rest of her sisters have come here for Hans Jayanti. They all spoke of their many close contacts with Sri Maharaji and of their beautiful experiences, past and present.

Shanta spoke about her life: 'I am 70 years old, born in 1930. We were all very close to Sri Maharaj Ji and felt that he loved us as his own.

'But I see no difference between now and then and Maharaji takes care of us in the same way as his father.

'I am so happy that Maharaji is honouring his father at this centenary.'

Knowledge sessions for 30,000

Maharaji announced tonight that there will be eight Knowledge sessions held here at Sri Sant Yogashram from 10 to 19 November.

In total it is estimated that 30,000 aspirants will be taught the techniques of Knowledge in the colossal Knowledge tent, which can seat up to 5000 people.

After registering in their home towns, people have travelled from all over the sub-continent and from Sri Lanka.

One Russian is also here, hoping to receive Knowledge.

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Date: Thurs, Nov 09, 2000 at 01:22:43 (GMT)
From: Jerry
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: I'm glad I missed it
Message:
You know what annoys me most about Maharaji when he speaks? Everybody is entitled to look at things the way it seems to them, to relate to their world as it appears. But not everybody is placed on a pedestal and regarded as haveing special insights that would be elusive to us otherwise, that we benefit by.

Why is the way Maharaji sees the world he lives in so fawned over by his devotees? What is he saying that's so special, that is so superior to the way other people look at the world? I can only think of two words to answer that question;

Personality...

Cult.

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Date: Wed, Nov 08, 2000 at 20:12:09 (GMT)
From: Steve Quint
Email: the_avenger55@hotmail.com
To: Jim
Subject: I feel like I'm missing the party of the century
Message:
Maharaji began his address by inviting his audience to reflect on how much they have in common as human beings...

Watch the typos, Jim. That should have read 'how much they have in common with human beings'.

Steve

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Date: Wed, Nov 08, 2000 at 20:15:34 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Steve Quint
Subject: Very funny! (nt)
Message:
gggggggg
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Date: Wed, Nov 08, 2000 at 20:57:07 (GMT)
From: jondon
Email: None
To: everyone
Subject: Wonder if he is listening to...
Message:
himself when he says ''Calm,resides in the heart, while chaos resides in the mind. Respect and humility live in the heart, pride and selfishness live in the mind.'

After what I've been reading from Mike D. and others, I think he speaks here from the head, from experience...but I don't think he hears himself.

Well I am on my way to South Fla. this week. Will post on what I find out about the good ship 'Serenity'.

Later all, jondon

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Date: Wed, Nov 08, 2000 at 21:00:32 (GMT)
From: Steve Quint
Email: the_avenger55@hotmail.com
To: jondon
Subject: Wonder if he is listening to...
Message:
He's making a fucking fool of himself, as well as those who've followed him for any length of time.

Quebec has a language police. I'm starting to think that language policing is not such a bad idea.

Steve

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Date: Wed, Nov 08, 2000 at 20:06:49 (GMT)
From: Mickey the Pharisee
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: I feel like I'm missing the party of the century
Message:
''Calm,' he said, 'Resides in the heart, while chaos resides in the mind.'
If you have an irregular heartbeat, then chaos resides in your heart, too.
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Date: Wed, Nov 08, 2000 at 19:48:53 (GMT)
From: Selene
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: party of the century
Message:
And I thought you meant the election coverage :)
That line about the 'one Russian is also here' seemed so odd to me.
The whole report did. And THIS one:
'But I see no difference between now and then and Maharaji takes care of us in the same way as his father.
HAHAHA! She may hve that one correct. what do you suppose that is supposed to mean? Health and dental benefits? Retirement package?
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Date: Wed, Nov 08, 2000 at 19:56:16 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Selene
Subject: party of the century
Message:
I think it means that he allows us to call out his name when we spiritually masturbate, just like his father.
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Date: Sun, Nov 12, 2000 at 04:30:29 (GMT)
From: sb
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: party of the century
Message:
You are tooooo much, that is exactly why I like you. More please!!!!
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Date: Wed, Nov 08, 2000 at 20:22:01 (GMT)
From: Selene
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: ick
Message:
The western premies are getting ripped off then because
all they get to do is stand and politely applaud.
Too funny.
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Date: Wed, Nov 08, 2000 at 19:46:02 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Damn! It sounds like they were really rockin' !!
Message:
I bet there were a lot of Hans Jayanti babies conceived tonight!:

Things were rocking this afternoon on the final day of Hans Jayanti 2000. It was an event filled with music, culminating in a duet with Maharaji and Dayalata. Amidst virtuoso performances and more East-West fusion there was a strong and vital focus on the nature and need for a master.

Maharaji talked with passion about the role of the master. He stated that the master was only significant for people when they felt a need for Knowledge.

But first the MC had welcomed the crowd on the actual anniversary of Sri Hans Ji Maharaj's birthday. Sri Maharaj Ji's love of music is well known and she said that we would this afternoon witness one of India's living musical legends, Ustad Bismillah Khan, a master of the sahanai, an instruments which sounds like a reedy saxophone. She said he had played for Sri Maharaj Ji and that he could melt stone with his music.

And she was not far wrong. Maharaji acknowledged his totally absorbing performance with a namaste greeting and later commented that the effortless performance of the astonishing tabla player could only have come from years of practice.

Bismillah Khan's soaring, swirling music rose to compelling crescendos and then veered magically away into heart-searing lyricism. To put a name on it would be an injustice - but Indian jazz might be as close as you would get.

Charananand, well known as Maharaji's first ambassador to the West, addressed the crowd drawn from 58 nations around the globe: 'In my life, I have observed that all human beings are the same, whether they are Hindu, Muslim, Sikh or Christian. And what is important is that in this human life you can experience Knowledge. Sri Maharaj Ji and Maharaji both delivered this message.'

Charananand was singing as well as speaking and joined the international band as a back-up vocalist. Dayalata sang on stage and led a version of 'Downpour of the holy name' that joined the assembled musicians into an almost orchestra-sized ensemble - with the rock band alternating with the Indian musicians who in turn gave way to a chorus of Indian female singers.

Maharaji noted the significance of the his father's anniversary pointing out what a rare and precious occasion it actually was.

He went on to observe with irony that both the words 'guru' and 'master' have been devalued, moving into everyday speech. Flying into Indian airspace, he said he had heard pilots addressing each other as: 'guru ji'.

He told a story about a family, in which all family members but the husband had Knowledge. He was illustrating the point that it is only when you see the need and importance of the master that a relationship with him has any meaning. The husband, in question - and Maharaji jokingly remarked that it was a 'fictitious family' - resented the connection the rest of his family had with their master. That is until he was put into a situation where his life hung in the balance and he needed the master's help. At that point he was more than happy to acknowledge his importance.

He spoke of the transformation that ensues when a person focuses on the goal of life. It is all too easy, he said, to pat yourself on the back when things seem to be going well, but cautioned how suddenly the picture can change when fortunes are reversed.

As human beings we all need support in our lives. He pointed out that as we grow up, this is provided by our family. But there comes a point in our lives when we need to fill an emptiness we feel inside.

He encouraged his audience to know and recognise that there is a power and strength that resides in the heart. And that the quest to experience this has always been acknowledged by saints and masters. Their message has always been that we should fulfil our lives and that it is possible for everyone to find the heaven within that they are seeking.

Maharaji used the metaphor of lighting a lamp within oneself to illustrate the powerful transformation that happens to someone seeking to fulfil their life. He described how his own father, Sri Hans Ji Maharaj, had talked of his search for fulfilment. Sri Maharaj Ji had searched and searched so much, and he had studied the scriptures, such as the Bhagavad Gita, and travelled all over but had not been able to find anyone able to enlighten him, until he received Knowledge from his master. Then he said: 'Now I experience what I was never able to understand before.'

Maharaji described how Sri Maharaj Ji had had so much trust in his master, but this was the trust of experience not a blind faith.

He talked of the effort and planning that had gone into the preparations for Hans Jayanti, emphasising the need to take good care of all those who attend events. He said he had suggested more frequent and smaller programmes. And this new strategy would start with his upcoming visit to Nepal later this month, and would continue into the new year here at Sri Sant Yogashram in February.

That the audience gathered today at the ashram was 90,000 strong was significant, he said, because that is the number of people that are currently waiting around the world to receive Knowledge. He said there was a need to train people to give support to this level of interest in his teachings, and that it wasn't just his effort that was required, but the audience's too.

Promising that more entertainment was to follow, Maharaji left the stage. He returned soon after with Dayalata, saying that she was the singer, not him. But he actually proved that singing runs in the family as they both led the audience in a wonderful serenade.

It was another of those Maharaji evenings, which could have gone on forever. But when it ended, it went out in pyrotechnic style - a sky-filling explosion of fireworks.

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Date: Thurs, Nov 09, 2000 at 01:47:38 (GMT)
From: Jerry
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Damn! It sounds like they were really rockin' !!
Message:
Bismillah Khan's soaring, swirling music rose to compelling crescendos and then veered magically away into heart-searing lyricism. To put a name on it would be an injustice - but Indian jazz might be as close as you would get.

Now, THAT I might have enjoyed. I'd like to take a poll of all the premies there. The question would be:

Honestly, now, what did you really enjoy more, Maharaji's satsang, or the performance of Bismallah Khan?

I bet I'd get looks of horror just asking such a question, as if I'd committed a fucking sacrilege or something. Either that, or those dumbass, infatigueable grins that only a premie is capable of.

Flying into Indian airspace, he said he had heard pilots addressing each other as: 'guru ji'.

That's funny. I love it. Maybe I'll start calling people that myself. 'Yo, guru ji. Wazzup?'

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Date: Wed, Nov 08, 2000 at 19:56:06 (GMT)
From: Monmot
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: I feel my teeth rotting while reading this treacle
Message:
He went on to observe with irony that both the words 'guru' and 'master' have been devalued, moving into everyday speech. Flying into Indian airspace, he said he had heard pilots addressing each other as: 'guru ji'.

Damn right, they do, and I would too. I'd rather address a pilot 'guru ji' than Maharaji. The pilots take more responsibility in one day than Maharaji has done in his entire life.

Donnez-moi un break.

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Date: Wed, Nov 08, 2000 at 20:10:07 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Monmot
Subject: And look how two-faced he is / they are!
Message:
Yes, yes, yes, with the right audience, Maharaji tries to pump up the old 'Guru' balloon with as much spiritual mystique and God-like authority as he possibly can. And the premies join right in.

But when it's convenient for him to downplay this shit, well here's what he says in EV's FAQ about whether or not Maharaji ever claimed to be God:

No, Maharaji never at any time claimed to be God. As an Indian national, when Maharaji first started teaching in the west when he was 13 years old, he used many examples from eastern traditions which demonstrated that a student seeking fulfillment could do so by choosing to follow the teachings of a guru or master. As he matured he realized that western traditions put a very different emphasis on the idea of guru and wrongly attributed messianic labels in this process. He changed his language to use the term master only and gradually removed all Indian associations from his teaching, as this is not a path just for Indians but is something that is available for anyone regardless of color, religion or race. It is acknowledged that many people at the time were already looking for a messianic type figure. That Maharaji was not such a figure disappointed some people.

(Emphasis added).

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Date: Wed, Nov 08, 2000 at 20:08:17 (GMT)
From: Cynthia
Email: None
To: Monmot
Subject: It Must Have Been a 'Fantastic Phenomenon' (nt)
Message:
nt
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Date: Wed, Nov 08, 2000 at 20:15:53 (GMT)
From: Monmot
Email: None
To: Cynthia
Subject: LOL. Yeah, Fantastic, But It Hurts Like Hell (nt)
Message:
kk
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Date: Wed, Nov 08, 2000 at 18:05:25 (GMT)
From: Steve Quint
Email: the_avenger55@hotmail.com
To: Everyone
Subject: What The Hell Is Happening Here?
Message:
On this, the one hundredth birthday of Shri Hans, I throw this exerpt from his book, Hans Yog Prakash, available on this website, up for discussion:

Whosoever goes to meet a Guru, a doctor, an astrologer, his friends, the gods, or a King without any gift or offering will never be successful in his endeavour.

You should understand that Guru is superior to God, for God places us in this hell, but Guru makes fear of this hell vanish.

Guru is the Creator, Guru is the Preserver, and Guru is the destroyer of this universe. Shri Guru Maharaj Ji is the Supreme God who removes the suffering of the humble and the poor. He who comes to the shelter of Guru Maharaj Ji is freed from the round of sufferings.

If even the most sinful of men comes to the Perfect Master, no pain nor suffering will reach him. He who believes in the Word of the True Master can never go to hell.

'Gu' means darkness. 'Ru' means light. Thus 'Guru' means He who dispels the darkness of our ignorance and reveals the inner light of God.

Based on this exerpt, I would say that Prem Pal Singh Rawat does not qualify as perfect master or guru. Maybe the validity of guru died when Shri Hans died in 1966. I used to like the idea of guru before I first encountered m in 1972. There was a lot of romance imagining myself a follower of Buddha, Christ, etc.

Any thoughts?

Steve

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Date: Wed, Nov 08, 2000 at 19:05:19 (GMT)
From: Jerry
Email: None
To: Steve Quint
Subject: What The Hell Is Happening Here?
Message:
I used to like the idea of guru before I first encountered m in 1972. There was a lot of romance imagining myself a follower of Buddha, Christ, etc.

Romance. Good word. It aptly describes the relationship between guru and devotee. But like many a romance, it loses it's allure when you find your lover has been cheating on you.

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Date: Wed, Nov 08, 2000 at 18:31:17 (GMT)
From: Frodo
Email: None
To: Steve Quint
Subject: Reply to happenings
Message:
I just want to know what you all expected when you first heard of Maharaji. I had idea's of what my master should be like and M is not what I expected.
Has anyone here worked or 'did service' at deca or CRA? I have.
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Date: Wed, Nov 08, 2000 at 19:14:30 (GMT)
From: Steve Quint
Email: the_avenger55@hotmail.com
To: Frodo
Subject: Reply to happenings
Message:
What's CRA? Was it blissful? Tolerable? Did you get compensated in money or other things?

I expected to be a useful contributor to a good cause. Instead, I've become a mental patient and seriously scorned.

Steve

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Date: Wed, Nov 08, 2000 at 17:22:47 (GMT)
From: a0aji
Email: and_on_anand@yahoo.com
To: Everyone
Subject: fire
Message:
At 2:52 in the morning, as I was about to get up from the computer station chair I was sitting in, fire broke out in one corner of the building I live in, which has 72 rental units. This was on November 7, the morning of the election in the US.

My unit seems to be free of smoke and fire and water damage, but the wing it is in is closed to occupancy while the workmen restore it to habitation conditions (mostly electrical work from what I've heard). I will stay on here (at a neighbor's unit, which overlooks my unit) across the way. The family I'm staying with are my newest friends; we've been getting to know each other for the past six months.

Last night the people coordinating our relief told us that half of us were going home (to the undamaged wing of the building) and the rest of us were going to the Ramada Inn (a hotel), as previously pre-arranged. Most of us knew it was a possibility -- they kept pushing back the estimated hour we could return to the building, even in the section that caught fire (it was contained because the wind was blowing out of the north, which fanned the fire to expand to the end of the building, rather than back into it).

So they boarded the bus, but I walked (it was a two minute walk and the bus was only necessary for a few people, but I think the authorities wanted some population control). I got there ahead of the bus, and went to my apartment (the bus would stop at the building; people would enter, get belongings for overnight at hotel, and leave burned building). I got into my apartment without anyone witnessing the act (quasi against instructions).

Took a shower, packed for overnight in unburned wing with neighbors. Almost took a nap! Neighbors not yet home so no place to wait. Heard workers right outside my door; froze in my tracks to be undiscovered.

When it was quiet, tried to leave. Walked down the hallway outside my apartment, to the exit -- it was boarded-over! I was stunned. They had boarded me in for the night! :)

I have sliding-glass doors (six-footers, but very narrow -- maybe 20 inches per pane) and they are mounted only a foot above floor level -- one lets out onto a patio, so I let out myself! Risked an overnight break-in since I couldn't secure it once I'd got outside the building.

Had a very fun evening with my co-survivors of the fire! We laughed so hard that Afshan (the woman) was laughing almost beyond endurance -- so much laughing our stomach muscles hurt! We'd all been through the same trauma together; all very tired and retelling every detail of the fire and the events that followed.

I tried to hide how happy I was, twenty minutes after the firetrucks arrived, because I was afraid people would think I was insane. I think the long-term exposure to premie culture and the surrounding counter-culture gave me a permanent sense of the fragility of 'secure' house and home, and the joy and glee of simply escaping fire alive and unharmed bodily. Plus, geez, nothing bad happened to my stuph, even if I loose occupancy because they condemn the building (doubt that anyway, severely; nothing at all wrong with my unit).

I woke up refreshed and smiling this morning. I'm alive! I danced around.

I did not have to suck on my tongue to do so, thank you very much. By the grace of whatever, a lot of people seemingly followed an intuition that said to take this very seriously. Hell, one woman went down the very stairwell where the fire was burning the hottest, just one wall-thickness away -- she escaped unharmed though her unit was 100 percent destroyed by the next-unit-over inferno (smoke was steaming out the cracks in the weatherstripping of her windows until they broke them with a fire-axe). I heard her wall was burned out. Four more units on that floor probably need extensive burn and smoke repair; a few more may have water damage and probably all in that wing had smoke damage. There were several coincidences; I'll tell you mine:

I was watching TV idly while doing computer work at 2:45 am. When the alarm went off (very loud) at 2:52 am, I took my time shutting down all three computers, shutting off all appliances and unplugging things. Then I took my fire box (personal papers, blank checks etc) and a lot of spare clothes and things -- pretty much text-book fire egress procedure. This is something I've had on my mind to do for a long time but never actually did it before. Worse, we've had several false alarms here, so I was not expecting to find fire.

So my 'by His grace' story is that I did something I never do; that also was reported by a few others. OTOH many many did not By His Grace stupid things. So -- is His grace selective?

Fuck that. What is wrong with good old human intuition? Some part per million of smoke had reached my nose by the time I decided to pack seriously, before I was consciously aware there was fire. Plus -- the alarm already was deafeningly loud.

IT was a small coincidence.

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Date: Wed, Nov 08, 2000 at 20:38:53 (GMT)
From: Monmot
Email: None
To: a0aji
Subject: fire
Message:
I'm glad you're okay, a0aji. Fire is pretty scary stuff. The house two doors down from us burned down a couple of weeks ago late at night, and we live in a dry leafy canyon which is seriously endangered when it comes to fires. Fortunately, it had drizzled that day, so things were damp. All I could think of was how I was going to corral my cats and get the hell out of the canyon.

I'm sure your elderly neighbor greatly appreciates you banging on her door too.

And, like teachers, I have nothing but the highest respect for firefighters.

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Date: Thurs, Nov 09, 2000 at 02:19:20 (GMT)
From: a0aji
Email: None
To: Monmot
Subject: Tnx Monmot - wow
Message:
Wow. A systemic fire I think is an order of magnitude more devastating. Glad yours didn't spread so far.
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Date: Wed, Nov 08, 2000 at 21:07:47 (GMT)
From: Katie
Email: None
To: Monmot
Subject: fire (ot)
Message:
Monmot, you probably already know this, but put your cats in pillowcases if you have to get out fast. They will be fine (although unhappy), and pillowcases are usually easier to get hold of quickly than a cat carrier.
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Date: Thurs, Nov 09, 2000 at 02:25:49 (GMT)
From: a0aji
Email: None
To: Katie
Subject: fire (ot)
Message:
One lady had a cat in a carrier but no litterbox. She was quite concerned. I'd have suggested a few 1-gallon ziplock bags full of clay litter. BTW it pissed me off when the relief worker suggested there were higher priorities than the cat's comfort -- she seemed totally shocked (ok, somewhat shocked) that I'd ask for such an 'offbeat' request (the owner hadn't spoken up but was sure to whine about it when nobody within earshot could help her, it seemed.) She has a really nice cat but seems to think the cat is as neurotic as she is. She said she is a 'minister'. Never lifted a finger to help her neighbors.

(from the Don't get me started files)

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Date: Wed, Nov 08, 2000 at 21:32:02 (GMT)
From: Monmot
Email: None
To: Katie
Subject: fire (ot)
Message:
Katie:

Actually, I didn't know that. That's a great idea; you can carry more than one pillowcase in one hand easier than multiple carriers. And, you're right, those furballs would be most unhappy but, alas, safe.

Thanks for the tip, and I hope I never have to use it.

M, still pissed at the Greens no matter what analyses I hear.

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Date: Wed, Nov 08, 2000 at 22:33:59 (GMT)
From: Katie
Email: None
To: Monmot
Subject: fire (ot)
Message:
Hi Monmot -
Well, I'm glad I posted it! Actually I got the idea from a friend who has FIVE cats - her vet told her she could bring the cats in to the vet that way. He even told her she could put more than one cat in each pillowcase if necessary (I have a 18 pounder and a 10 pounder, so that wouldn't work for me!).

I'm really pissed at the Greens too. I think a lot of people are - well, women anyway!

Take care -
Katie

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Date: Thurs, Nov 09, 2000 at 02:27:23 (GMT)
From: a0aji
Email: None
To: Katie
Subject: fire (ot)
Message:
You mean for fucking up the Florida vote?

Count me in on that pissed pool :)

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Date: Wed, Nov 08, 2000 at 18:57:12 (GMT)
From: Selene
Email: None
To: a0aji
Subject: fire
Message:
Glad you are OK! Smoke inhilation is scary.
I remember that same intuitive feeling as a child, in one of the bad fires in our 'unit' (ha good word btw).

Agree with Katie forget 'his grace' that was so contrived all of his insinuations about giving us something we didn't already have.

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Date: Thurs, Nov 09, 2000 at 02:16:59 (GMT)
From: a0aji
Email: None
To: Selene
Subject: Tnx Selene -- by His grace and oh a FIRE DEPT nt
Message:
nt
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Date: Wed, Nov 08, 2000 at 18:53:58 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: a0aji
Subject: What if the fire was in Brian Gaudet's building?
Message:
Glad you're alright, Chris. Sounds like a bad situation that could have been much, much worse.

But can you imagine if a Happy Clapper's building had gone up in flames? Here's Brian 'reporting' from the cult festival in India:

Hello from Delhi

I feel lucky to have the opportunity to help out in the first-aid facility here. Much care is being taken to look after the 2500 western attendees as well the Indian guests.

It s is an honor to be a small part of this effort.

Brian Gaudet
Edmonton, Canada

Actually, that's pretty tame. But I'm sure that if Brian, Janet or Yvette ever brushes up against disaster like you did, they'd be singing Halleluah like crazy.


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Date: Thurs, Nov 09, 2000 at 02:12:08 (GMT)
From: a0aji
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: What if the fire was in Brian Gaudet's building?
Message:
> happy clapper

ROFL!

Thanks Jim

You know I turned around to thank my Creator but there was nobody to thank -- a few stars winked 'at me' from oh a few squillion miles away, and from a time before the Earth had critters bigger'n an amoeba slathering around in the primordial divine muck.

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Date: Wed, Nov 08, 2000 at 19:21:51 (GMT)
From: Steve Quint
Email: the_avenger55@hotmail.com
To: Jim
Subject: What if the fire was in Brian Gaudet's building?
Message:
I'm horrified that the organization that I got involved with many years ago has deteriorated into a mindless cult not much different that the moonies or jehovah's witnesses.

Did it really deteriorate or was it always this bad? Probably the latter, eh?

Steve

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Date: Wed, Nov 08, 2000 at 18:52:34 (GMT)
From: Katie
Email: None
To: a0aji
Subject: fire and intutition
Message:
Hey, AoAji - glad you are OK and in good spirits. Sounds like you are a good neighbor, too :).

About intuition, I agree. We had false tornado warnings all the time when I lived in Missouri. People just woke up and went back to sleep. (Since I wasn't from the Midwest, I took them pretty seriously.) Anyway, one night I just KNEW there was going to be a tornado - because of certain weirdnesses in the weather. I went outside at midnight to see if things had changed and my neighbor was also outside for the same reason (very unusual) and we both agreed that we were having tornado weather. I couldn't go to sleep because of this, so went down to the basement, and sure enough at 2:30 the tornado siren went off - for real this time. The tornado ended up completely destroying 20 houses about a mile away (no one was hurt, which was amazing, because most people just ignored the alarm until the tornado was about to hit).

So yes, plain old human (or maybe animal) intuition really helped in this case - as in yours. Forget the 'by his grace' stuff - that actually made me ignore my intuition about dangerous situations several times (luckily, nothing bad ever happened, but it was close.)

Take care - and I hope you get to move back in.

Katie

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Date: Thurs, Nov 09, 2000 at 02:02:31 (GMT)
From: a0aji
Email: None
To: Katie
Subject: fire and intutition
Message:
Thanks, Katie. Hey I'd be far more afraid of a Tornado -- you can't stand 50 feet from one and mock it, as I did this fire!

I agree -- shat-sang taught us to ignore intuition, although premie culture said to engage in superstition :)

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Date: Wed, Nov 08, 2000 at 17:37:26 (GMT)
From: a0aji
Email: None
To: be
Subject: fire
Message:
BTW I went back into the burning building twice; when I finally left and didn't return, it was at least 12 minutes into the alarm. I had one old lady to get out (banged on her door for four full minutes before she came to the door). Everyone else's door I banged on was a wasted risk to my life -- turns out they all had left earlier when they heard the alarm. We get so many false alarms I was worried someone would put a pillow over their ears and wait it out inside.

Turns out nobody on my floor would have been injured, but that was unknown at the time. I took a good hard look at the fire I could see before re-entering the burning building the first time; I think I was over-confident in that I made one short extra trip just to grab a couple of folding chairs out of my apartment! That was stupid, though that may've also been when I got my hammer and flat pry bar, which would redeem the action somewhat.

Those firemen were amazing -- on the ladder over the burning building during the height of the blaze. Just amazing.

I was more like showing off than being much of a hero, quite frankly. People were freaking; many weren't.

Children seemed to adjust very quickly.

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Date: Wed, Nov 08, 2000 at 18:23:20 (GMT)
From: Rick
Email: None
To: a0aji
Subject: fire
Message:
Damn, what an ordeal, aOaji. It sounds like you weathered it quite well. Glad you're okay, and don't even have to move. Is it known how the fire started?
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Date: Thurs, Nov 09, 2000 at 01:58:57 (GMT)
From: a0aji
Email: None
To: Rick
Subject: fire
Message:
Thanks, Rick.

Neighbors speculated that it was a smoking in bed incident but I haven't heard the official story yet.

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Date: Wed, Nov 08, 2000 at 19:06:03 (GMT)
From: Marianne
Email: None
To: aOaji
Subject: fire
Message:
I am relieved to hear that you are all right. I hope you're able to settle back in quickly.

Marianne

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Date: Thurs, Nov 09, 2000 at 02:05:07 (GMT)
From: a0aji
Email: None
To: Marianne
Subject: Thank you Marianne -nt-
Message:
nt
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Date: Wed, Nov 08, 2000 at 20:22:39 (GMT)
From: Cynthia
Email: None
To: aOaji
Subject: fire
Message:
Geeze, I so glad you're okay.

The closest I came to a very large fire was in 1994 when an old Inn in our village had an electrical short. The buildings where entirely engulfed in flames while the volunteer firemen just did their work--incredible. Fortunately no one was injured, but a couple of cats and a dog died.

The buildings caved in on themselves before our eyes so fast, and my husband just happened to have film in the camera and took some incredible shots which the fire marshall was able to use to determine the cause. The fire was so hot and large, in 30 degree weather it melted the vinyl siding on a house across the river.

So glad you made it out safely and in good spirits!

Cynthia

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Date: Thurs, Nov 09, 2000 at 02:06:49 (GMT)
From: a0aji
Email: None
To: Cynthia
Subject: Thanks Cynthia -- great fire story! -nt-
Message:
nt
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Date: Wed, Nov 08, 2000 at 18:34:49 (GMT)
From: Lurking Poster
Email: None
To: Rick
Subject: Great fire story-- glad you are OK thanks!! NT
Message:
NT
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Date: Thurs, Nov 09, 2000 at 02:04:07 (GMT)
From: a0aji
Email: None
To: Lurking Poster
Subject: Thanks Lurking Poster -nt-
Message:
nt
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Date: Wed, Nov 08, 2000 at 11:43:37 (GMT)
From: SongBird
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: Hans Jayanti 71 and the Jewels
Message:
Eactly what is the story behind the Jewels that were found on the plane full of western premies to Hans Jayanti by Indian Customs. Was that story ever told or discovered.

The official version from DLM was that it was Premies property that was put in one bag for security.

I am really sad to hair of propagation in Africa. The Africans are very poor, and they dont have the warewithall and the experience of western ex-s in juding the whole situation. They will really be trapped and exploited....that is real mean..

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Date: Wed, Nov 08, 2000 at 12:44:17 (GMT)
From: Salam
Email: None
To: SongBird
Subject: I don't know about jewels, but I know that lardy
Message:
lives and flourishes on ignorance.

Muritus has a large Indian community with enough idiots to supplant lardy with fodder.

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Date: Wed, Nov 08, 2000 at 14:16:55 (GMT)
From: Cynthia
Email: None
To: Salam
Subject: Speaking of jewels....what about the crown?
Message:
Hi Salam,

First, if this has been discussed before, maybe someone can direct me to the archive.

When I was in Florida I worked on goomrji's krisha pants and malas a few times. The krisha crown was a topic of discussion once and I was told that the jewels on the hat were real rubies, emeralds, etc.

Anyone know anything about this? Is it Shri Hans original crown, and did that come into play during the law suits between the families?

Just Curious
Cynthia

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Date: Wed, Nov 08, 2000 at 20:50:27 (GMT)
From: Bin Liner
Email: None
To: Cynthia
Subject: This is a key to Pandora's box.... (nt)
Message:
nt
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Date: Wed, Nov 08, 2000 at 09:03:35 (GMT)
From: Frodo
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: Why Thrid world country's
Message:
Is there any truths that there are thousand of people receiving knowlege in Africa and other poor country's. And what would Maharaji gain by having a bunch of ethiopians lining up to serve him. They are to weak to fight, they don't have much of anything to offer.
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Date: Wed, Nov 08, 2000 at 17:42:04 (GMT)
From: Purely Pragmatic
Email: None
To: Frodo
Subject: Private Investor Reasons
Message:
He's probably just the door man for certain Telecommunications Companies try to get a slice of the $$$$$$ (billions) pie that the World Bank is offering to Companies most likely to succeed in 'Wireless Communications' geared toward Third World Countries.

Can we say: ADVC, WAIV, NAIV..... to name a few ;-)

And to think Randy used to warn us about 'Maya'.

G'day

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Date: Wed, Nov 08, 2000 at 11:34:45 (GMT)
From: Jean-Michel
Email: None
To: Frodo
Subject: Here's why
Message:
Investments cost: zero (paid by EVF=western premies)

Take west Africa or Mauritius for instance:

there are hundreds of sects and religious groups thriving in these countries. People, like in India, go from one gourou to the other one, from one cult to the next one. They 'receive k', but don't stay, except maybe for a small group. They have no problem proselyting, everybody does there.

And they give money, believe me. You know Yoram's tricks ? The premies there give money every month to the local EV, for huge megaprojects, like buying a residence, a land in their countries (which will of course never happen), cars for m etc. And Rawat comes and leaves with the cash I guess.

When they're tired of the racket, they leave and fall in the next trap .... poor people.

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Date: Wed, Nov 08, 2000 at 11:25:55 (GMT)
From: AJW
Email: None
To: Frodo
Subject: Propagation in Africa
Message:
Hi Frodo,

From what I heard about South Africa, the bulk of black Africans who receive knowledge are the servants of white premies- worried they might be fired if they don't take up the kind offer of their employer to watch an introductory video.

Anth the citizen of the world.

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Date: Wed, Nov 08, 2000 at 11:47:41 (GMT)
From: Salam
Email: None
To: AJW
Subject: Propagation in Africa
Message:
Are you being a pig or can substantiate what you're saying?
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Date: Wed, Nov 08, 2000 at 12:01:27 (GMT)
From: AJW
Email: None
To: Salam
Subject: Propagation in Africa
Message:
Hi Salam,

Right now I am being a pig- I'm stuffing my face with cashew nuts. My evidence is hearsay, gathered when I was working on the editorial team for a cult magazine about three years ago, called 'Connect' or something. We had articles about propagation all over the world. I spoke to an instructor who had visited South Africa, and she told me that the only black premies who received knowledge were the servants of white premies- this is aside from the large group of ethnic Asians in South Africa.

She told me that there was a black African instructor who tried to spread the cult message a little beyond the servants, but I don't know how much success he had.

Anth the Unkosher Cashew Nut

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Date: Wed, Nov 08, 2000 at 12:38:24 (GMT)
From: Salam
Email: None
To: AJW
Subject: This is the biggest racist remark I have heared
Message:
in a long time.

What are getting at by the word 'servant'? Are you saying that those black are slaves or are they wage earning workers? Is this another British colonial thing? Because I do not think the word servant is correct. If they are getting paid wages then they are workers, house cleaners or something on the line. To call them servants is like implying that they are slaves. This shit pisses me off.

Also, give some of that cashew nuts yours tuffing in your face.

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Date: Wed, Nov 08, 2000 at 16:09:55 (GMT)
From: AJW
Email: None
To: Salam
Subject: Salam you are a cashew nut.
Message:
Hi Salam,

In Britain being a servant is not a racial thing. There are lots of white servants here, probably more white than black. Servants get paid a wage like everybody else.

Also, calling a servant something like, 'Domestic Worker', doesn't change the fact they go to a rich persons house every day and do the kind of jobs that most people do for themselves.

So what are you saying here Salam, the word 'servant' should be banned?

I am not a racist. I speak out against it whenever I encounter it and I admire and respect your position on these matters.

Anthony the Anarchist

ps, your cashew nuts have been emailed to you.

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Date: Thurs, Nov 09, 2000 at 12:52:19 (GMT)
From: Salam
Email: None
To: AJW
Subject: Salam you are a cashew nut.
Message:
When are you pomiees are going to become politically correct.

Cleaning someone house does not mean that there is a rich and a poor. There are more reason to cleaning and looking after someones' house than that. Is a plumber or an electrician a servant? How about a handyman? As long as the person has his/her dignity it does not matter what he/she is doing. I have done work for people that thought that they could treat me like a peice of shit, yet I am positive that I earned more than they did. It did not bother me, I took their money and spent it and they can think what they want. So what was I talking about anyway? Ah cashews, leave me some, I may come to the UK in few months

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Date: Fri, Nov 10, 2000 at 09:11:51 (GMT)
From: AJW
Email: None
To: Salam
Subject: UK Tour
Message:
Hi Salam,

If you come to Europe, let us know. Maybe you'll have time to pop over to the Netherlands and I can take you to a Coffee Shop and introduce you to some of the local delicacies.

Anth who can't remember where he put anything

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Date: Tues, Nov 14, 2000 at 18:01:00 (GMT)
From: Salam
Email: None
To: AJW
Subject: Not until you refloat
Message:
your puny little island after all that rain.
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Date: Thurs, Nov 09, 2000 at 16:06:52 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Salam
Subject: U say 'politically correct' with a straight face?
Message:
Salam,

Domestic employees like butlers, maids, housekeepers, cooks .... they're all still properly called 'servants'. You must have something better to fight about, no?

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Date: Wed, Nov 08, 2000 at 09:10:55 (GMT)
From: hamzen
Email: None
To: Frodo
Subject: But don't forget China, Brazil and India
Message:
as they start getting investment and generating $/£'s, he'll be there like a vulture, as for Africa, guarantee you his time involvement will be minimal, and in any country there are always rich individuals.
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Date: Wed, Nov 08, 2000 at 17:18:37 (GMT)
From: Marianne
Email: None
To: Salam
Subject: Anth's not a racist
Message:
Salam: I have spent time with Anth. He's definately not a racist. I can see where use of the word servant does not sit well with you, though. No harm in pointing out another interpretation.

And believe me, the Bushs, senior and junior, grew up with SERVANTS. We're all gonna be their fucking servants now.

Marianne

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Date: Thurs, Nov 09, 2000 at 22:40:05 (GMT)
From: Cynthia
Email: None
To: Marianne
Subject: What She Said ^ :))) (nt)
Message:
nt
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Date: Wed, Nov 08, 2000 at 03:59:07 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: Janet 'tells' it like it is (repost)
Message:
Janet posted this particularly long, strong and clear post to shppie that went inactive pretty darned fast what with all your American thingamujigger stuff. (I trust that the upcoming Canadian election will garner equal interest from this great group of internationalists.):

[sanford, you don't need to serve another ] human being as obviously flawed as Maharaji. You yourself have more compassion,feeling, genuine human caring and humility than the man Michael worked for. I couldnt help but grab this excerpt out of your post to bilbo--

'...not needing to lean on and hide behind a heroic fictional character to bolster my position...'

Sandy, all of us were induced into swallowing exactly that: a heroic, fictional character. Did you know there was such a thing as SatGuru or that you needed one, before you encountered the strange phenomenon of Premies? You were simply told. Did that guy in the expensive suit and the heavy watch and the echoing voice actually sit down with you, yourself, make your individual acquaintence and become your friend? Did he ever actually take a personal interest in you, take tenderness for your tribulations in getting through life, and offer from the moving of his heart to yours, to show you what he had, the secret to life? No. He did not.

You met wave after wave of other people, who told you to go and ask for it. None of them was him. You met Special people, Important people, High Mucky-Mucks, whom you were told came at his order. Some of them may have even told you that he sent them before you. Not to you, Sanford, personally. Not hardly. Just ordered to go out and talk to people. In fact, you may have gotten the distinct impression that they felt that no one ought to be treated to individual recognition. You may have tried to introduce yourself, and may have been offended to be treated as nonexistent or insignificant, and put off by such chilling impersonalism.

Does it make any sense that all the talk refers to listening to the heart, yet those who ostensibly have been chosen for their superior comprehension, to go out and address others at his order, show exactly the opposite of heart?? Does that scan? Wouldn't your human sense tell you that the better a person understood this supposed gift, if it was about living life from your heart, they would evidence more heart than others? And the ones designated as Higher would show more heart than that? And that the one who was suposed to be the Highest would treat you with heart, the Most of All?

And all of this, IF what they were telling you was true?

It isnt like that. You know it hasn't been.

A dear, tender friend, who has learned that the secret of life is in the Heart, wouldn't beat anyone. They wouldn't rip and tear out and shatter anyone's trust. We know what someone with heart feels like. They wouldn't abuse someone who depended on them. They wouldn't get rid of a gift that had had the likes of three years of sacrificial labor poured into it at great personal peril and pain--ie., the Boeing 707 at DECA. That tale is one of heartless ingratitude, Sanford. There is zero love or heart in it.

All of us have Taken this thing on the basis of suspension of disbelief. Not knowing what it was or whether we actually needed it, we were exhorted to come and get it, were harangued that we needed it, in some instances spooked on purpose into dreading the outcome if we did not have it--and even after suspending our natural impulses and faculties to question about it, and after suppressing our personalties to the point it was shown to us, we still suspended our intrinsic intelligence to wait and see why they said all that. We allowed ourselves to be abused. We allowed ourselves to be diverted from everyday life. We permitted ourselves to be ordered about and shamed and denied and degraded, all in the name of waiting to see this great secret, without which life was supposedly nothing. What we were subjected to--and consented to it--was all being touted to us as orignating in the Heart-while all the behavior arose from anything But.

Sandy, we had Life before we bumped into this odd crowd. We had heart. We knew what it was to be moved for others, to care, to love. We had everything we needed. Hell, anyone who's ever made friends with a dog! knows what unreserved heart is--!!! We had devotion, and it was spontaneous, toward whoever or whatever in life merited it! No one had to tell us to be!

Sandy, I honestly see more decency and compassion and higher human carriage in you than in that fat pipsqueak on the high hill! You understand more of love and forgivenenss and real godly qualities than the one you have been told to serve in order to...to do what, Sandy???? In order to do 'what'..?

You, just as you are, have the individual strength and the innate understanding, as yourself, to turn and walk away from serving that capricious, demanding, unappreciative, profligate, power-hungry, control-obsessed, dismissive, obnoxious prick--and to render your love to humans all around you who are far more deserving and hungry for it. They need your love, Sandy. That self-important martinet on the hill does not. He literally would not know what to do with love if it closed on his foot like a steel trap.He is contemptuous of everyone around him. He is disgusted with everything that is brought to him. He uses up and disposes of human beings as if they were kleenex™ and toilet paper.

[See the fancy 'TM' insignia after 'kleenex'? Who'd have thought, huh? -- Ed.]

How many people have you ignored in your life who needed you terribly, people all around you--who needed just you--not satsang, not Knowledge, but you--while you have given your irreplacable time to this remote,selfish, taking, uncaring individual?

When will it be too late, Sandy? Will you wake up in time? Will it dawn on you to look around you, to look back and see what he caused you to do to those who really cared? Really knew you? Really stayed with you? Really helped you?We have all heard the wistful utterings of those who get up and declare that 'they have learned that they can't depend on anyone but Maharaji'...and do you know why, Sandy? Because all the while we are fed this perpetual speech about 'life in the heart', we are surrounded by people acting without heart, in endless and unappreciated toil to try to please him! Isn't love supposed to be mutual, Sandy? Arent't the two supposed to give to each other? If there is a life meant to be lived out of the Heart, where is the equality, the spontaneous gestures, the personal sharing? He isn't loving and responsive, Sandy...he cuts people's hearts out and lacerates them.

God didnt make you and send you into the world for this, Sandy. You are a singular work. There isn't another of you as a spare, in a closet somewhere. There's just you. You are the only you for the people who know you. Do you have children? You are their only dad. Do you have a wife? You are her only mate. Do you have pets? You are their only home and shelter. Do you have a mother and father? You are their son. They don't have another 'you' at home, to see and talk to and delight in, when you are away from them. Are there people in your immediate vicinity who obviously need a hand up? the homeless? scared kids? forgotten old folks? battered women? runaway kids? shut-ins? people with AIDS?
If we are going to declare that the secret to life is in the heart, then wouldn't the open heart see these needs, and move to reach them with something?

Who do you think is more grateful for the meal you put before them, or the coat you bring them, or the hour you come to visit them, or the ride you give them---Maharaji? or that huddled form, over there?

[? - Ed.]

Do you realize how many hungry people just one of Maharaji's watches would feed? How about all of them?
How many homeless people the sale of his houses would provide homes to, if sold and the price distributed?
How much transportation--to doctors, jobs, school, volunteer action his cars would provide, if they were liquidated and the sums divided among the needy, deserving and sincere?

And the yacht, Sanford. What would the expense of owning that yacht be able to do, if it was put toward the truly suffering? The gulfstream V? The helicopter?
What becomes of all of it if he dies tonight? where would it go, and why? and who would do it?

And us--what would we do?

Have you seen his brother's site lately, sandy? Over there, they are doing disaster relief. Yes. Satpal has held public office and is dispatching his minions to go and take care of the refugees of a terrible, devastating natural disaster. They're handing out clothing and food and medicine and creating shelter for tens of thousands of ordinary humans in their time of despair. You can bet his brother would never do such a thing.

Turn away sandy. Walk your own life. Be yourself only. Use your innate qualities for people who need you. Not waste your time on that guy in malibu who doesn't know you and couldn't care less what happens to you. Be what you started out to be--a person,“not needing to lean on and hide behind a heroic fictional character to bolster my position”

[How did she do the quotes in the last sentence? I always thought we could only use single '''s- Ed.]

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Date: Thurs, Nov 09, 2000 at 18:53:43 (GMT)
From: shp
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Reply to Janet
Message:
Dear Janet,

You said alot of things and I know you meant all of it and you were coming from a very sincere place and from your own perspective. I thank you very much for the time and energy you took to write it. I cannot comment on any of it now, partly because of other committments and partly because of how deeply this is all affecting me. Please understand this is not a put-off or a ducking of any issues. It's just a whole lot.

There are elements onsite that are pushing me to not only respond, but respond in a prescribed manner in a certain timeframe. I cannot and will not do so just to please a mob, whether that mob is made up of only one person or those who may glom onto his thing.

But you deserve an answer for all of the effort you made to connect with me and you will get one. I will say this: please don't compare me to Maharaji or anyone else in any way. And I don't advise you to judge him or anyone by their toys. These are classic distractions that have thrown well-meaning people off track way before Maharaji, you, or I ever got here. The rest is open to discussion.

Sincerely,
Sanford

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Date: Thurs, Nov 09, 2000 at 22:17:37 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: shp
Subject: Here's shp's one-sided scale again
Message:
And I don't advise you to judge him or anyone by their toys. These are classic distractions that have thrown well-meaning people off track way before Maharaji, you, or I ever got here. The rest is open to discussion.

Assume, for argument's sake, that a person's 'toys' have indeed been 'classic distractions' at times. Does that mean that a supposed spiritual teacher's 'toy's are never relevant? No, of course not.

But that's exactly what you're pretending here, shppie. Here, I'll translate again:

'You'd have to agree with me, wouldn't you, Janet, that it's at least possible that Maharaji might be sincere in spite of his wealth, right? You'll give me that much? Good. So can't we pretend that that's in fact the case? See, if we can do that, then we can sidestep this otherwise thorny issue. And wouldn't that be great? For me, I mean. Wouldn't that be great for me?

You see, Janet, what you have to understand is that I might be a new-age fool but I'm a stubborn new-age fool. I'm too stubborn to leave this forum even though most people seem to want me to. (Hell, I go a lot of places where people don't take me seriously or worse! I'm shp.) Yeah, stubborn and sneaky! By proposing one possible explanation, no matter how thin, just like I've done here, I'm pretending to have actually dealt with the issue, openly and fairly. Please, don't give me a hard time on this, though, huh? See, I'm shp. I gotta do what I gotta do, you know?

So that's that. The rest is an open discussion. I won't talk about this issue anymore though. I woudln't want to because I see that I could really get stuck and that's not what I'm about. I'm far too slippery for that. You don't know how big I am, Janet. I'm far bigger than any box you want to put me in and you know aht that means. That means, quite simply, that I only play by shp rules. Got it?

Okay, now is there anything else you want to see me pretend to discuss. Because I cand do it, yes I can. I'm shp.

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Date: Wed, Nov 08, 2000 at 18:25:05 (GMT)
From: curious George
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Janet 'tells' it like it is (repost)
Message:
Wow Janet!!!

Touching stuff. Really well put together.

Thanks, and thanks Jim for reposting it. It should definately be up there with the best of,

Best regards,

Curious George

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Date: Tues, Nov 07, 2000 at 19:57:19 (GMT)
From: Sir Dave
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: The OFFICIAL USA exit poll is HERE (ot)
Message:
Being an ignorant Brit, I can't remember the name of the other candidate, so I've just put 'Other' until someone can remind me who it is. Anyway,

Click here for the OFFICIAL US Presidential election exit poll

Personally, I think Gore will win if Bush doesn't.

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Date: Tues, Nov 07, 2000 at 18:26:31 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: Who said the fear-mongering's a thing of the past?
Message:
Below are excerpts from the hamster's October cult indoctrination session in Kuala Lumpar. I guess one could argue that this is a few shades lighter than the murderous poison he was feeding us in the seventies, when people literally killed themselves because they were so afraid of the mind, so afraid of 'falling' off some imaginary path. On the other hand, I wonder: is it any lighter? Take a look:

If life is a river, your boat has to be sound and your captain must know what he is doing. If life is a path, you'd better not stray from it.

Okay, you don't have to a professional spiritual adept like shppie to get the imagery. It's all rushing river, drowning souls and one saviour for the lot of us. Not to worry, though. So long as you don't jump, I guess.

Life is real - it's like walking a tightrope with a balancing pole. How great is the challenge? It depends on how high up the tightrope is. If it is only six inches from the ground, what's the point? But if it is 1,000 feet high, you have a real challenge on your hands. There it is, the rope, and you walk on it with a long balancing pole. Why do people need the pole? Because imbalance is the thing that is going to make you fall off. Balance is so critical. There are forces that are acting continuously against a person. One force, gravity, says, 'Come down here.' But you say: 'No, I can do this, if I am balanced.' But you need to augment your balance with the balancing pole.

Take a look at some of Maharaji's fear-mongering, Instructor's Special Edition, from the seventies. Is it really so different?:

But the thing is that the service of initiator is demanded on the highest standard of Knowledge realizations, so the person is not confused. Because if you are confused, then it's better to walk away from it all. Because I'll tell you one thing from my practical experience. Every person that I have seen who was a full initiator, and then got confused, just got completely disastrous. From that point on, they were just leading a disastrous life. Because mind then begins to actually manifest. A simple example of this is that the higher you are, the harder you fall. If you are just a little glass and yet fall from a short distance, what is done? Maybe you can pick it and put some glue on it and put it together. But the higher you go, the worse it's going to be. And that means, when you shatter, it's going to be impossible to put you back together. - Guru Maharaj Ji, IDP Satsang, Malibu, January 10, 1977

(emphasis added)

I guess it's kind of fun to freak people out. But you'd think that with all the suicides and stuff he'd have learned a thing or two, wouldn't you?

In life, you find yourself on one side of the rope, walking to the other side. Is there a reason to go across?

Now he launches into the 'cross-the-river-of-maya-or-else' routine. Been there, done it and yes, I got a t-shirt. The t-shirt's long gone but I still remember the urgency, the fear. Mind you, it wasn't like we went INTO the fear that often. The suicides and freak-outs did but most of us just treated it like an electric cattle fence. We were the cattle.

A baby zebra, born in the wild, struggles to get up. Is this little zebra intelligent enough to know that there are lions around? I don't think so. But it does somehow knows what it must do. And the mother walks a little bit away, so the baby can get up and take his first steps. Then, the mother will move away again. This is not cruel. It is innate. When the zebra has reached the mother, she will stay still, so it can suckle. The next step for the baby zebra is to drink milk. This wisdom, if you will, is the basics which allow the zebras to continue to survive, to be. The baby zebra has a liking - not hatred - for its mother's milk. If the baby says: 'No, I want a milk shake. I want to see a menu' - it wouldn't work. The zebra has been gifted with this wisdom, for the sake of its survival.

We too have very innate instructions built within us. But we have become subject to our perceptions. We find ourselves in a hospital room, with tubes in us, We think we're sick. Another room, the same: four walls, a door. It's a prison. Another room, also four walls and a door - it's home. What do we see in others, in ourselves, in this creation? We exist, we live, we evaluate. The desire is inside us to get across. And we try to resist it, to reason.

So much for reason, huh? And you wonder at people like shp who today announced that he would retreat even further from reason in his effort to stay the course. No, Maharaji's not anti-intellectual. Of course he's not.

Life is like driving in India. I never get used to it. There's no left, no right. Everyone drives in the center of the road. On the way to the ashram, they have put a divider. So, people now just drive on both sides of it!

Everything in India occupies the same space at the same time! Trust, trust, trust. You don't know what trust and gratitude means until you have been on the roads in India.

To walk this tightrope you have to have a balancing pole. Knowledge is that balancing pole. You have to listen to this heart. You need to listen to the master. 'One step at a time, don't rush this.' Slowly. Every step needs to be deliberate. Don't rush, don't try to shoot across.

Doesn't take an anti-cult extremist to see the potential horror of this imagery. 'Tightrope'? Great! And if you DON'T take 'every step' with heart-stopping deliberation, listening to 'the master', then what? Hm, now that's a real tough one ....

Do you think there is any substitute for consciousness in this life? You have been given that one thing that can never be bought by any amount of money... To run around in unconsciousness is easy. Just, drop the balancing rod.

If I ever get a chance to talk to the hamster, the first thing I'll bring is a big, fat dictionary. And fuck him if I won't use it. He'll use it too. I'll make him.

Feel that peace within you. Because of the gift of Knowledge, the impossible has been made possible.

You must cross in this lifetime, so do it. Don't waste your time in feeling afraid. Spend your energy in being conscious, not afraid. Take each step deliberately, enjoy it, enjoy it - and next thing you know, you are on the other side. Can you really afford to get lost? The consequences haven't hit home yet.

This is so transparent, this tripe, this poison. Again and again the hamster sells a complete paradox and his fools buy it and try to live it. How many tightrope walkers 'enjoy' themselves WITHOUT FEAR? Can you imagine? Especially when you have a 'master' reminding you that the 'consequences' of falling 'haven't hit home yet'? God, I'd love to talk with him!

Maharaji went on to talk about 'the armchair traveller', who never goes anywhere. He just thinks: 'India would be a nice place to go. Africa would be a nice place to be... I think I'll go there...' But he never decides where to go anywhere....

He spoke of need, and how it brings humility:

There are so many plants that use the wind to spread their pollen. And some are shaped like tiny umbrellas. They use the wind to spread their pollen. Some are shaped like sails. They let the wind carry them. Humility, not pride. The question, the debate is not whether you need a master or a guide but whether you want fulfillment in your life.

I'll form my own questions, thank you very much. And the first one is when are you going to have the guts to talk to any of us? We served you for years, asshole! Now we want to talk again.

Traps are traps. If you fall, you just get up and walk. But don't forget to rest and don't forget to resume. Under no circumstances can you afford to get lost. Getting lost is not an option. Drowning in the sea of sorrow is not an option. However difficult it is to get up, remaining on the ground without getting up is not an option.

Not listening to your heart is not an option. You must listen to your basic instructions. And those instructions reside in your heart.

More ratcheting up the 'relaxation' and 'enjoyment' factor? This is hilarious. God, I remember what it was like! No wonder there waqsn't room for any 'chit chat'. We were supposed to be freaked, freaked and smiling.

In this life, don't just be clear. Be very, very clear. Because where there is that separation between clarity and doubt, that's where the fun begins. Sat chit anand, (truth, consciousness and bliss,) can be just a theory. But when a person is away from doubt, the meaning of sat chit anand is obvious. You begin to understand that sat chit anand really is at the heart of every single human being.

Yes, can't wait for the 'fun to begin'! Maybe we'll all get to sing arti or soemthing! And doubt? Why doubt when you can do one more thing to burrown yourself into the mental prison of the cult? Watch a video or something. Anything. Get away from doubt, I'm telling ya', and the meaning of all sorts fo things is obvious.

The ultimate, ultimate symphony going on in this breath. Stay in there... What a master offers is not for a very few. It is for everybody. Yes, you too can feel that bliss as the master does. Celebrate this life. Let it unfold. Exist. Enjoy. What more is there? Know where to go and walk the rope. Enjoy the ride.

'Walk the rope' and 'enjoy the ride' ..... I think I made my point.

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Date: Wed, Nov 08, 2000 at 14:59:45 (GMT)
From: Cynthia
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: I would like to have a long talk with that guy...
Message:
Hi Jim,

Great post. I have the greatest urge to talk to him to tell him off, to tell him he's full of shit and that he's a loser.

Lambs suckling is wisdom. Boat analogy, driving analogy, he's so transparent it's laughable. It's pathetic that he persists in his effort to use people.

I remember the no chit chat days, especially when someone would come up and 'remind' me I was chit chatting. And the big festival when he said...if he heard one word of chit chat, well I don't know what's gonna happen.... Then he would chuckle and the premies would laugh, stomachs turning, nerves razor sharp. The fool.

So I would try not to think, to obey his idiotic agya and then the snake would turn around and tell us it was stupid to have feelings of guilt. Just pick yourself up and keep going...

I remember him saying that guilt was a double whammy. Guilt about guilt--that he instilled in us through his not so subtle nor gentle satsangs!

Ya, I wanna tell him off, I want him in a room and make him listen to me, to all of us...

Best,
Cynthia

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Date: Wed, Nov 08, 2000 at 08:36:33 (GMT)
From: ham
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Upping the ante again I would say
Message:
And not the only time there has been signs of leakage in this direction in a number of recent quotes.

Since we now know with certainty that he is uncappable (you see how I'm getting into that White House intelligence level!) of really learning, with genuine humility, from his mistakes, you just know that when all these training seminars, and recent increased pressure re propagation, fails, the heavy hand will increase as he gets angry.

Without premies actually saying anything (what are they supposed to do, kidnap people & take them to videos?) there is no way that the propagation drive can work.

One thing you did miss is 'The desire is inside us to get across. ', & 'You must cross in this lifetime, so do it.', 'and next thing you know, you are on the other side.', across to where, why it's that ole chestnut enlightenment again, just when you thought it was dead and buried. Truly he is one step ahead.

Of course to reach the other side one has reached a destination, in which case the bus driver, or boat captain if you will, would no longer be needed. But since we know that he will always be needed that means a lifetime of tightrope walking.

Ain't it wonderful, a lifetime of terror masquerading as relaxation, guess it's time to buy another of those visions international glass goblets engraved with his coat of arms to drink from in this neverending journey to nowhere, and to get the courage.

Coat-of-arms, trinkets, and I thought this was a spiritual route about the heart and not corporate religion!

Phase 2 indeed.

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Date: Wed, Nov 08, 2000 at 06:31:52 (GMT)
From: Steve Quint
Email: the_avenger55@hotmail.com
To: Jim
Subject: Who said puking's a thing of the past?
Message:
How much puking does a person have to do to recover from the damage done by this weed-eating monster?

I'm lucky to be alive. That's grace.

Steve

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Date: Wed, Nov 08, 2000 at 20:14:46 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Steve Quint
Subject: Stve, once you stop puking, you can start laughing
Message:
Or maybe you can mix 'em up a bit. Really, this cult is both the most tragic and funniest thing that ever happened in my life.
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Date: Wed, Nov 08, 2000 at 20:56:00 (GMT)
From: Steve Quint
Email: the_avenger55@hotmail.com
To: Jim
Subject: Stve, once you stop puking, you can start laughing
Message:
'Funniest thing that ever happened in my life'?

Either you've had a bad life, or I'm missing something. Please enlighten me.

Steve

P.S. I'm planning to visit Victoria in a couple of weeks.

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Date: Wed, Nov 08, 2000 at 21:06:48 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Steve Quint
Subject: You DON'T think it's kind of funny?
Message:
In a movie, it's funny. In a book, it's funny. In real life, it's just fucking weird. Funny, tragic or just plain dumb. A bit of everything.

Give me a call before when you come over and we can plan something.

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Date: Wed, Nov 08, 2000 at 04:01:35 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: If no one reads this fucker I'm going to repost it
Message:
This is actually an important point, believe it or not.
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Date: Wed, Nov 08, 2000 at 07:05:35 (GMT)
From: Steve Quint
Email: the_avenger55@hotmail.com
To: Everyone
Subject: If you don't get nauseous from this sad song......
Message:
you should run for senator in Missouri.

Steve

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Date: Wed, Nov 08, 2000 at 05:33:56 (GMT)
From: Shattared glass
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: I did
Message:
Yes darling. I read the whole thing and I hate lard more now that I did. Am I suppossed to thank you for it?

What a creep lard is!!

You are good. I'm glad that you keep being interested on the main subject...unlike some of us, whimpies.

s

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Date: Sat, Nov 11, 2000 at 07:24:19 (GMT)
From: Tim Matheson
Email: None
To: Shattared glass
Subject: I did
Message:
testing
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Date: Sat, Nov 11, 2000 at 20:35:35 (GMT)
From: Selene
Email: None
To: Tim Matheson
Subject: testing What? nt
Message:
nt
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Date: Wed, Nov 08, 2000 at 04:57:18 (GMT)
From: Salam
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Yo, wa zup?
Message:
What's bugging you. I have read it. What do want me to do now?
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Date: Wed, Nov 08, 2000 at 17:45:44 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Salam
Subject: Yo, wa zup?
Message:
Oh nothing, Salam. I just thought that here was something I'd never really noticed and I wanted to 'share' it, you know? Company of truth and all.
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Date: Thurs, Nov 09, 2000 at 14:51:57 (GMT)
From: Jerry
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Yo, wa zup?
Message:
It was a good point, Jim, and one worth driving home. Maharaji makes himself indispensable as a means of preventing disaster which, in his mind, will surely befall those of us without a 'master'. It's a thinly disguised scare tactic. Thanks for bringing it to the forefront.
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Date: Tues, Nov 07, 2000 at 19:19:41 (GMT)
From: Jerry
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: You're just so in your mind, Jim
Message:
Me too. I especially like how he sees pollination as an act of humility. Ain't he sumthin'?
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Date: Tues, Nov 07, 2000 at 17:05:25 (GMT)
From: Steve Quint
Email: the_avenger55@hotmail.com
To: Everyone
Subject: Elan Vital Constitutional Reform
Message:
Can we, as people with knowledge, amend the EV constitution to limit m's turn as guru to eight years? That would end his reign of horror stories retroactively to 1974.

Steve

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Date: Tues, Nov 07, 2000 at 14:56:18 (GMT)
From: Salam
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: Not so perfect
Message:
I put what I knew about m in a personality test program which is

The IPIP-NEO
(International Personality Item Pool
Representation of the NEO PI-R™)

These where the results.

Your score on Extraversion is average, indicating you are neither a subdued loner nor a jovial chatterbox. You enjoy time with others but also time alone.
Your level of friendliness is low.
Your level of assertiveness is high.
Your activity level is high
Your level of positive emotions is low.

Your score on Agreeableness is low, indicating less concern with others' needs Than with your own. People see you as tough, critical, and uncompromising.
Your level of trust is low
Your level of morality is low
Your level of altruism is low.
Your level of modesty is low
Your level of tender-mindedness is low.

Your score on Conscientiousness is low, indicating you like to live for the moment and do what feels good now. Your work tends to be careless and disorganized
Your level of self-efficacy is low.
Your level of orderliness is average.
Your level of dutifulness is low
Your level of achievement striving is high
Your level of self-discipline is high.

Your score on Neuroticism is high, indicating that you are easily upset, even by what most people consider the normal demands of living. People consider you to be sensitive and emotional
Your level of anxiety is high
Your level of anger is high.
Your level of depression is high.
Your level or self-consciousness is high
Your level of immoderation is high.
Your level of vulnerability is high.

Your score on Openness to Experience is low, indicating you like to think in plain and simple terms. Others describe you as down-to-earth, practical, and conservative
Your level of imagination is average
Your level of artistic interests is average
Your level of adventurousness is low.
Your level of intellect is low.
Your level of liberalism is average.

I am also sending this result to a psychologist with back ground information on m to see what kind of person is m. The above result are not accurate as there are things I do not know about m, such as his stance on crime and punishement, how he view nationality, does he have imagination and stuff like that. I can do the test again if there is some feedback.

You can view the test on this url:

http://cac.psu.edu/~j5j/test/ipipneo1.htm

The test itself can not be viewed without taking it. It is about 40-60 minutes. I found it very refreshing.

There are other personality test programs on:

http://www.davideck.com/cgi-bin/tests/tests.cgi?action=personality

Have fun

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