Forum V: Archive
Compiled: Fri, Dec 01, 2000 at 16:23:07 (GMT)
From: Nov 15, 2000 To: Nov 25, 2000 Page: 3 Of: 5


TD -:- Public Service Announcement - Maharaji's website -:- Tues, Nov 21, 2000 at 16:07:40 (GMT)
__ Sir Dave -:- Public Service Announcement - Maharaji's website -:- Tues, Nov 21, 2000 at 16:50:05 (GMT)
__ __ TD -:- X-rated Maharaji.org is much much better Sir Dave! -:- Tues, Nov 21, 2000 at 20:02:09 (GMT)
__ __ __ Sir Dave -:- X-rated Maharaji.org is much much better Sir Dave! -:- Wed, Nov 22, 2000 at 00:45:50 (GMT)
__ __ Sir Dave -:- By the way TD -:- Tues, Nov 21, 2000 at 18:05:05 (GMT)
__ __ __ Salam -:- I thought this might be of interest to you -:- Wed, Nov 22, 2000 at 00:54:10 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Tonette -:- M didn't design -:- Wed, Nov 22, 2000 at 03:29:17 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Steve Quint -:- I thought this might be of interest to you -:- Wed, Nov 22, 2000 at 01:35:32 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Salam -:- I thought this might be of interest to you -:- Wed, Nov 22, 2000 at 03:12:20 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Steve Quint -:- I thought this might be of interest to you -:- Wed, Nov 22, 2000 at 04:45:22 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Salam -:- I thought this might be of interest to you -:- Wed, Nov 22, 2000 at 12:33:36 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ janet -:- you too? I just realized they started me too -:- Wed, Nov 22, 2000 at 12:30:57 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Steve Quint -:- you too? I just realized they started me too -:- Wed, Nov 22, 2000 at 12:48:59 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Steve Quint -:- For Sentimental Reasons, The Lyrics -:- Wed, Nov 22, 2000 at 12:53:27 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Sir Dave -:- I thought this might be of interest to you -:- Wed, Nov 22, 2000 at 01:22:28 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ TD -:- Jossi Fresco and Mary Wishard did web conversion -:- Wed, Nov 22, 2000 at 15:05:01 (GMT)

Way -:- The Krishna children -:- Tues, Nov 21, 2000 at 15:29:40 (GMT)
__ Curious George -:- The Krishna children -:- Thurs, Nov 23, 2000 at 05:48:28 (GMT)

Steve Quint -:- If It's Not Scottish, It's Crap -:- Tues, Nov 21, 2000 at 07:20:35 (GMT)
__ Steve Quint -:- Once More, With Sound Effect -:- Tues, Nov 21, 2000 at 15:34:12 (GMT)
__ Sir Dave -:- If It's Not Scottish, It's Crap -:- Tues, Nov 21, 2000 at 12:32:50 (GMT)
__ __ Steve Quint -:- If It's Not Scottish, It's Crap -:- Wed, Nov 22, 2000 at 14:27:38 (GMT)
__ __ __ Sir Dave -:- The basic Hindu negativity -:- Thurs, Nov 23, 2000 at 12:46:12 (GMT)
__ __ TD -:- Why don't people go to Sweden for spirituality.... -:- Tues, Nov 21, 2000 at 15:40:30 (GMT)

la-ex -:- Michael Dettmers-is m addicted to being worshipped -:- Tues, Nov 21, 2000 at 05:24:18 (GMT)
__ Jerry -:- Michael Dettmers-is m addicted to being worshipped -:- Tues, Nov 21, 2000 at 17:33:39 (GMT)
__ __ la-ex -:- Jerry-we're on same page,just see it differently.. -:- Tues, Nov 21, 2000 at 18:19:25 (GMT)
__ __ __ Katie -:- Jerry-we're on same page,just see it differently.. -:- Tues, Nov 21, 2000 at 21:54:35 (GMT)
__ Susan -:- LOL LOL...smoke scene! -:- Tues, Nov 21, 2000 at 16:33:42 (GMT)
__ __ la-ex -:- LOL LOL...smoke scene!/Hold on,that's my idea! -:- Tues, Nov 21, 2000 at 18:58:12 (GMT)
__ Stonor -:- I am what I am given. -:- Tues, Nov 21, 2000 at 06:05:32 (GMT)

Sir Dave -:- Remembering our dear brother -:- Mon, Nov 20, 2000 at 17:58:16 (GMT)
__ A question -:- Re: Remembering our dear brother -:- Tues, Nov 21, 2000 at 10:48:47 (GMT)
__ __ Sir Dave -:- Re: Remembering our dear brother -:- Tues, Nov 21, 2000 at 16:32:59 (GMT)
__ __ Katie -:- Re: Remembering our dear brother -:- Tues, Nov 21, 2000 at 15:13:41 (GMT)
__ __ 1/o the nobrainer friends -:- all of the above and then some -:- Tues, Nov 21, 2000 at 11:39:14 (GMT)
__ __ __ A question -:- Re all of the above and then some -:- Tues, Nov 21, 2000 at 12:04:54 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Salam -:- And you must be the biggest dumb ass I've seen -:- Tues, Nov 21, 2000 at 13:37:04 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ A question -:- Am I the biggest dumb ass you've seen -:- Wed, Nov 22, 2000 at 11:48:55 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Salam -:- you certainly are -:- Wed, Nov 22, 2000 at 14:17:17 (GMT)
__ janet -:- removing the paragraphs-i still disagree. -:- Tues, Nov 21, 2000 at 10:01:22 (GMT)
__ __ Sir Dave -:- removing the paragraphs-i still disagree. -:- Tues, Nov 21, 2000 at 14:58:45 (GMT)
__ Stonor -:- Petty point I know, but ... -:- Tues, Nov 21, 2000 at 03:42:24 (GMT)
__ Cynthai -:- Remembering our dear brother..thank you Sir D (nt) -:- Mon, Nov 20, 2000 at 20:18:11 (GMT)
__ __ Cynthia -:- janet, I hope you're okay....be well....Cyn (nt) -:- Mon, Nov 20, 2000 at 20:48:07 (GMT)
__ __ __ janet -:- I'm fine. Greg deserved his life to be known -:- Tues, Nov 21, 2000 at 09:33:16 (GMT)

Salam -:- RAWAT you boofhead -:- Mon, Nov 20, 2000 at 15:56:48 (GMT)
__ Hal -:- RAWAT you boofhead -:- Mon, Nov 20, 2000 at 19:45:12 (GMT)
__ 20 years -:- I rebuke you with puke on your feet -:- Mon, Nov 20, 2000 at 17:31:06 (GMT)
__ Yves -:- RAWAT you are Master bathing -:- Mon, Nov 20, 2000 at 16:48:19 (GMT)
__ Sir Dave -:- RAWAT you boofhead -:- Mon, Nov 20, 2000 at 16:21:03 (GMT)
__ __ Cynthia -:- Maharaji, you're a low class liar and cheat... -:- Mon, Nov 20, 2000 at 16:59:58 (GMT)
__ __ __ Marianne -:- Wheaties this A.M.? -:- Mon, Nov 20, 2000 at 19:34:18 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Cynthia -:- Wheaties this A.M.? No Wheaties, just coffee.... -:- Mon, Nov 20, 2000 at 20:20:57 (GMT)

people finder -:- Randy Prouty -:- Mon, Nov 20, 2000 at 15:56:10 (GMT)
__ PHD -:- Randy Prouty -:- Mon, Nov 20, 2000 at 21:04:01 (GMT)

A wavering premie -:- Closure -:- Mon, Nov 20, 2000 at 06:50:17 (GMT)
__ Helen -:- you did it--hurrah! -:- Tues, Nov 21, 2000 at 02:50:59 (GMT)
__ __ Bazza -:- you did it--hurrah! -:- Tues, Nov 21, 2000 at 03:50:22 (GMT)
__ __ __ Helen -:- you did it--hurrah! -:- Wed, Nov 22, 2000 at 22:24:55 (GMT)
__ Jerry -:- Closure -:- Tues, Nov 21, 2000 at 02:22:25 (GMT)
__ Bin Liner -:- Welcome -:- Mon, Nov 20, 2000 at 21:45:16 (GMT)
__ __ Bazza -:- Welcome -:- Mon, Nov 20, 2000 at 21:54:04 (GMT)
__ __ __ Bin Liner -:- It's a question of discretion -:- Tues, Nov 21, 2000 at 01:00:40 (GMT)
__ Monmot -:- Closure -:- Mon, Nov 20, 2000 at 21:19:12 (GMT)
__ __ Bazza -:- Doorways -:- Mon, Nov 20, 2000 at 21:47:39 (GMT)
__ __ __ janet of venice -:- Doorways--and media esp! -:- Tues, Nov 21, 2000 at 10:15:20 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Bazza -:- Media -:- Tues, Nov 21, 2000 at 19:52:42 (GMT)
__ __ __ Cynthia -:- You Sound So Good -:- Mon, Nov 20, 2000 at 23:05:51 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Bazza -:- You Sound So Good -:- Tues, Nov 21, 2000 at 00:58:40 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ gErRy -:- Maharaji's little world -:- Tues, Nov 21, 2000 at 02:01:44 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ AJW -:- LOL :) nt -:- Tues, Nov 21, 2000 at 15:42:27 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Bazza -:- Maharaji's little world -:- Tues, Nov 21, 2000 at 04:01:41 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Stonor -:- pssst -:- Tues, Nov 21, 2000 at 06:24:04 (GMT)
__ Mickey the Pharisee -:- Closure -:- Mon, Nov 20, 2000 at 17:35:50 (GMT)
__ Gail -:- Congratulaton -:- Mon, Nov 20, 2000 at 16:13:08 (GMT)
__ Katie -:- Closure -:- Mon, Nov 20, 2000 at 16:04:33 (GMT)
__ __ Bazza -:- Closure -:- Mon, Nov 20, 2000 at 17:35:51 (GMT)
__ Nigel -:- Closure (or opening time?) -:- Mon, Nov 20, 2000 at 15:36:26 (GMT)
__ Scott T. -:- Closure -:- Mon, Nov 20, 2000 at 13:42:20 (GMT)
__ Rick -:- Closure -:- Mon, Nov 20, 2000 at 13:36:18 (GMT)
__ jondon -:- Closure -:- Mon, Nov 20, 2000 at 12:05:06 (GMT)
__ __ Bazza -:- Peer pressure -:- Mon, Nov 20, 2000 at 18:05:35 (GMT)
__ Patrick -:- Closure -:- Mon, Nov 20, 2000 at 11:00:50 (GMT)
__ PHD -:- A man of courage,I salute you (nt) -:- Mon, Nov 20, 2000 at 09:37:46 (GMT)
__ AJW -:- Da da da der da da der (tune- Great Escape) -:- Mon, Nov 20, 2000 at 09:03:03 (GMT)
__ Hal -:- Closure -:- Mon, Nov 20, 2000 at 08:37:12 (GMT)
__ __ Bazza (to my friends) -:- Thanks for your support..... -:- Mon, Nov 20, 2000 at 17:23:27 (GMT)
__ Susan -:- a very heartfelt hello to you -:- Mon, Nov 20, 2000 at 08:22:59 (GMT)
__ __ Helen -:- a very heartfelt hello to you -:- Tues, Nov 21, 2000 at 02:54:15 (GMT)
__ __ Happy -:- congratulations! -:- Mon, Nov 20, 2000 at 11:00:59 (GMT)
__ __ __ Cynthia -:- Great Letter! -:- Mon, Nov 20, 2000 at 16:53:17 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ cq -:- PMJI (pardon me jumping in) -:- Tues, Nov 21, 2000 at 21:00:05 (GMT)

Michael Dettmers -:- My responses to la-ex -:- Sun, Nov 19, 2000 at 21:51:42 (GMT)
__ Curious George -:- Monica Lewis theory or fact? -:- Tues, Nov 21, 2000 at 00:26:11 (GMT)
__ Susan -:- interesting as usual, and a few more questions -:- Mon, Nov 20, 2000 at 03:05:40 (GMT)
__ __ Blue Max -:- interesting as usual, and a few more questions -:- Mon, Nov 20, 2000 at 14:15:36 (GMT)
__ __ __ Susan -:- very true -:- Mon, Nov 20, 2000 at 16:31:38 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Blue Max -:- very true -:- Mon, Nov 20, 2000 at 23:35:58 (GMT)
__ __ suchabanana -:- Monica Lewis, April Gillam, bimbo eruptions? nt -:- Mon, Nov 20, 2000 at 04:19:28 (GMT)
__ __ Marianne -:- Jonestown Remembered and Ultimate Responsibility -:- Mon, Nov 20, 2000 at 03:51:38 (GMT)
__ __ __ Tonette -:- A question -:- Tues, Nov 21, 2000 at 16:50:17 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Marianne -:- Jones lost it bec. of Ex-PT members -:- Tues, Nov 21, 2000 at 17:38:14 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Katie -:- Jones lost it bec. of Ex-PT members -:- Tues, Nov 21, 2000 at 21:50:28 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Salam -:- Better be safe than sorry -:- Wed, Nov 22, 2000 at 15:12:08 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Tonette -:- Thanks for the answer. -:- Tues, Nov 21, 2000 at 17:56:47 (GMT)
__ __ __ Bin Liner -:- Hear , Hear nt -:- Mon, Nov 20, 2000 at 21:51:49 (GMT)
__ __ __ sam -:- thank you, thank you , Marianne. ( NT) -:- Mon, Nov 20, 2000 at 09:50:54 (GMT)
__ __ __ Susan -:- another great post Marianne (nt) -:- Mon, Nov 20, 2000 at 05:27:19 (GMT)
__ Salam -:- Question. -:- Mon, Nov 20, 2000 at 02:54:22 (GMT)
__ __ Michael Dettmers -:- Answer -:- Tues, Nov 21, 2000 at 02:48:49 (GMT)
__ __ __ Bazza -:- Just an aside -:- Tues, Nov 21, 2000 at 06:14:06 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Michael Dettmers -:- Just an aside -:- Tues, Nov 21, 2000 at 12:17:24 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Salam -:- Thanks for the reply, You're a champion..nt -:- Wed, Nov 22, 2000 at 00:57:03 (GMT)
__ __ Buzz -:- Question. -:- Mon, Nov 20, 2000 at 05:54:16 (GMT)
__ __ __ Marianne -:- Answer -:- Mon, Nov 20, 2000 at 05:58:54 (GMT)
__ __ Katie -:- Question. -:- Mon, Nov 20, 2000 at 03:28:04 (GMT)
__ Rick -:- My responses to la-ex -:- Sun, Nov 19, 2000 at 23:48:39 (GMT)
__ Tim G -:- My responses to la-ex -:- Sun, Nov 19, 2000 at 22:09:03 (GMT)
__ __ Cynthia -:- Questions to Michael -:- Mon, Nov 20, 2000 at 16:24:20 (GMT)

Tim G -:- Calling any ex-premies or waiverers in Eire -:- Sun, Nov 19, 2000 at 21:28:43 (GMT)
__ Marianne -:- Merry Eire ex meeting? -:- Sun, Nov 19, 2000 at 22:38:35 (GMT)

I knew Orzano when he.... -:- and I were in junior high together-he did what? -:- Sun, Nov 19, 2000 at 20:58:50 (GMT)
__ Salam -:- Dicks work in a mysterious way -:- Mon, Nov 20, 2000 at 02:58:15 (GMT)
__ __ dick -:- Dicks work in a mysterious way, yes they do -:- Mon, Nov 20, 2000 at 15:28:20 (GMT)
__ __ __ Gail -:- Are you insinuating incest in the Rawat tribe? -:- Mon, Nov 20, 2000 at 20:55:12 (GMT)

ebay alert -:- Get your inspiration HERE -:- Sun, Nov 19, 2000 at 20:37:28 (GMT)
__ Tonette -:- These aren't mine -:- Tues, Nov 21, 2000 at 19:35:30 (GMT)
__ janet of venice -:- ebay alert -we need to buy these for evidence -:- Tues, Nov 21, 2000 at 11:06:28 (GMT)
__ __ Katie -:- ebay alert -we need to buy these for evidence -:- Tues, Nov 21, 2000 at 15:05:27 (GMT)
__ Katie -:- Too funny :) -:- Tues, Nov 21, 2000 at 03:32:22 (GMT)
__ jondon -:- Here's an idea -:- Sun, Nov 19, 2000 at 22:28:13 (GMT)
__ __ e-bay-master -:- Here's an idea?That's not bad, plus this as well.. -:- Tues, Nov 21, 2000 at 19:13:20 (GMT)
__ __ __ jondon -:- Heck, why auction it off, -:- Tues, Nov 21, 2000 at 23:31:24 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Bazza -:- You may be on to something there -:- Wed, Nov 22, 2000 at 04:39:40 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ jondon -:- nice work... -:- Wed, Nov 22, 2000 at 13:17:44 (GMT)

la-ex -:- premies:how will you feel about the next master? -:- Sun, Nov 19, 2000 at 19:37:12 (GMT)
__ Steve Quint -:- premies:how will you feel about the next master? -:- Wed, Nov 22, 2000 at 08:06:32 (GMT)
__ Nigel -:- Yes - and what about if there were NO successor? -:- Mon, Nov 20, 2000 at 18:07:01 (GMT)
__ __ a0aji -:- Nine of Lilas, Six of Gopies, and two Holy Ghosts -:- Tues, Nov 21, 2000 at 04:57:24 (GMT)
__ __ Steve Quint -:- Yes - and what about if there were NO successor? -:- Tues, Nov 21, 2000 at 00:28:02 (GMT)
__ Bin Liner -:- First choice -:- Mon, Nov 20, 2000 at 00:42:28 (GMT)
__ Steve Quint -:- premies:how will you feel about the next master? -:- Sun, Nov 19, 2000 at 23:05:41 (GMT)
__ ulf -:- premies:how will you feel about the next master? -:- Sun, Nov 19, 2000 at 20:23:59 (GMT)
__ JTF -:- interesting hypothetical LA-ex but....... -:- Sun, Nov 19, 2000 at 20:12:19 (GMT)
__ hal -:- premies:how will you feel about the next master? -:- Sun, Nov 19, 2000 at 19:56:38 (GMT)
__ __ la-ex -:- the next master? Now here's a question for you... -:- Mon, Nov 20, 2000 at 00:39:06 (GMT)
__ __ __ Cynthia -:- The next master? -:- Mon, Nov 20, 2000 at 20:44:20 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ a0aji -:- The next master? -:- Mon, Nov 20, 2000 at 21:23:27 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Cynthia -:- You're a sick puppy, a0aji.... -:- Mon, Nov 20, 2000 at 23:12:52 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ a0aji -:- You're a sick puppy, a0aji.... -:- Tues, Nov 21, 2000 at 04:49:49 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ la-ex -:- Next question-how would m choose? -:- Tues, Nov 21, 2000 at 01:10:36 (GMT)

Sir Dave -:- If you don't have a life -:- Sun, Nov 19, 2000 at 17:30:08 (GMT)
__ Salam -:- Where is the search engine? -:- Sun, Nov 19, 2000 at 18:26:45 (GMT)
__ __ Sir Dave -:- Where is the search engine? -:- Sun, Nov 19, 2000 at 23:33:14 (GMT)

AJW -:- What's the difference... -:- Sun, Nov 19, 2000 at 16:26:27 (GMT)
__ What's the difference -:- between Marolyn Rawat and a hockey player? -:- Mon, Nov 20, 2000 at 16:03:35 (GMT)
__ Lotus Eater -:- Lots of difference... -:- Sun, Nov 19, 2000 at 19:55:19 (GMT)

Salam -:- to : Kjarne -:- Sun, Nov 19, 2000 at 10:14:27 (GMT)
__ Kjarne -:- to : Kjarne -:- Sun, Nov 19, 2000 at 12:39:08 (GMT)
__ __ Jean-Michel -:- Confusion and doubts are great !! -:- Sun, Nov 19, 2000 at 14:40:10 (GMT)
__ __ __ Salam -:- Confusion and doubts are great !! -:- Sun, Nov 19, 2000 at 16:16:12 (GMT)

JohnT -:- Premies! Try your luck at this ... -:- Sun, Nov 19, 2000 at 09:37:53 (GMT)
__ ExTex -:- Ho Ho Ho Well Done, John T (nt) -:- Mon, Nov 20, 2000 at 08:37:15 (GMT)


Date: Tues, Nov 21, 2000 at 16:07:40 (GMT)
From: TD
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: Public Service Announcement - Maharaji's website
Message:
If you haven't been to www.maharaji.org since it was launched in 1999, and are wondering what you may have missed in the year 2000 or maybe you were intimidated by his lengthy legalese website terms of agreement on the front page and never got past the flushing toilet logo - well I am here to tell that you have missed absolute nothing by not checking it out. It has zero new information on it - zip, nada! So no need to go there, even for curiousity's sake.

I went there the other day to check it out again, and it's an absolute embarrassment and must be a turnoff even to hardened premies. Maharaji did himself a complete disservice by saying that he designed and did it all primarily himself. He's negelected to follow any decent website design rules even for an amateur, but that's being pedantic. What's more obvious, is that it hasn't been updated once since it was launched in Feb '99. The crap and misleading statistics are old and out of date, showing 1998 results only, and his updates just tells of a bit of basic website housekeeping that has been done. His email responses still only show the first 10 days of numbers since February 1999.

His responses to feedback are of course non-specific and all glowing....

But what was interesting (and I'd forgotten this) is that he's devoted his website to his mother, stepmother and father, family and those who are into life etc etc. Why didn't he mention PREMIES for god's sake! Use that word M, or the more modern PWK! That's interesting that Mata Ji got a mention.... I didn't think they got on so well after the court battle!

You'd think with him having satellite broadcasts now and not needing to travel as much, he'd be able to spend more time on his own website, but alas no. Come on Maharaji, what's the story? Update your website, because it's utter crap! Give us some fresh material will you? Tell us how well K has done around the world, how numbers have grown etc etc? You're an expert at tweaking statistics and facts! Should be easy for you to do a bit more!!

Or does it mean that you've been spending far too much time reading this website to spend time on your own .... ?

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Date: Tues, Nov 21, 2000 at 16:50:05 (GMT)
From: Sir Dave
Email: None
To: TD
Subject: Public Service Announcement - Maharaji's website
Message:
I think Maharaji's bored with his own site and doesn't see the point in updating it. It hasn't brought in the thousands of new devotees that he hoped. Not to worry though;

Click here for the more interesting X Rated Maharaji.org

I think even Maharaji will say it's an improvement.

.. Dave

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Date: Tues, Nov 21, 2000 at 20:02:09 (GMT)
From: TD
Email: None
To: Sir Dave
Subject: X-rated Maharaji.org is much much better Sir Dave!
Message:
I agree - this is a hell of a lot more interesting. Mind you, I didn't notice the turd on the front page. Is there supposed to be an actual one on the blue toilet swirl?
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Date: Wed, Nov 22, 2000 at 00:45:50 (GMT)
From: Sir Dave
Email: None
To: TD
Subject: X-rated Maharaji.org is much much better Sir Dave!
Message:
It's a divine turd, TD, which is why it isn't brown but a kind of sickly green colour. Well anyway, that thing swirling around in the toilet bowl looks green to me and it's a long one that's come from eating too much curry and popadums.

Huh, there's one thing a lot of people have in common with the Lard - I fondness for curries. But in Britain it's our favourite dish. You can get curry and chips (French fries) here. Lovely!

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Date: Tues, Nov 21, 2000 at 18:05:05 (GMT)
From: Sir Dave
Email: None
To: Sir Dave
Subject: By the way TD
Message:
Thanks for pointing out all of that TD. I hadn't given his web site much thought but your research has revealed that he considers his website to be a waste of time.
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Date: Wed, Nov 22, 2000 at 00:54:10 (GMT)
From: Salam
Email: None
To: Sir Dave
Subject: I thought this might be of interest to you
Message:
I came across this web site a while ago. They are a web design company. I noticed a link to Rawat's web site so I e-mailed them asking why. A Gwenda (must say she was polite) replied. What follows is the conversation. It is interesting because I noticed the name Gwenda on EV web site feedback/perspective, yey her name and her writting disappeared a week after this conversation took place.

www.logdev.com

No nothing at all with visiting our site, I just thought that perhaps maybe you knew Gwenda.... but we're always happy to have new visitors to our site!

I didn't mean to come off sounding short in my reply about the Maharaji page either - I honestly don't know why she chose this one - we only asked that our staff and associates provide us with a page of their favorite websites.... just to give everyone an understanding of who they are and what they like to do...

Tara (she sounds like the boss)

To Gwenda,
What is the relation between what you do
and the link that you have for 'maharaji.org'.
Salam

Hi Salam:
I just like the site -- it doesn't have anything to do with my professional life. It's nice that you took the time to read my 'favorites', though. Are you in Australia?
Gwenda

Gwenda
So I would have thought that Favorites links mean
something that we favor.
But then there is private and professional
like business and pleasure,
Salam

Okay, I admit it, Salam - the person who did the graphics and writing for the site, Maharaji, has been my teacher for over 25 years and is probably the single most important influence in my whole life.
How was it that you stumbled on my information?
Regards,
Gwenda

Gwenda,
to answer your question how I stumbled your information, well, that
how I got it, stumbled upon it, I can not remember what I was
searching for, but it has several crawlers that came up with few hundreds
of sites, one of them was yours (honestly now), I went to the link, but I could
not see its relevance to what you do.
Now that you tell me that he designed the site, it makes some sense.
So do you contract him for the work or is it a one off.

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Date: Wed, Nov 22, 2000 at 03:29:17 (GMT)
From: Tonette
Email: None
To: Salam
Subject: M didn't design
Message:
his web site. In fact, on his web site it used to give credit to a few individuals who probably did the majority of the work. I wonder if that referance is still there? In any case, Sir Dave is right the webmaster/designer is listed in these archives on EPO.

Typical and sad that this premie didn't want to divulge the relationship she has had with her 'teacher.' I always found it embarrassing to mention M too so I can relate to her predictament. Too bad you didn't share with her YOUR favorite web site Salam.

I made a mistake the other day in trying to start a conversation with a premie. I casually asked him if he had ever checked out EPO or had heard of it. Man, he said that he had and high tailed it the hell away from me in a hurry. Just me mentioning this web site freaked him out big time. I was just trying to make conversation. That little experience really showed me what a closed, fantasy world some premies live in. Information is power and a toxin to their cult. I really felt sorry for this dude.

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Date: Wed, Nov 22, 2000 at 01:35:32 (GMT)
From: Steve Quint
Email: the_avenger55@hotmail.com
To: Salam
Subject: I thought this might be of interest to you
Message:
Hi Salam, how're you doing.

Gwenda is a friend of mine. I'm not sure where she's at with respect to m but I've decided to follow the kind of thinking expressed recently here in respecting my 'premie' friends and telling them in a matter-of-fact way where I'm at. I was the most regular attendee at Vancouver events for the last 14 years and so my absence and change of viewpoint will be definitely noticed.

Regards,

Steve

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Date: Wed, Nov 22, 2000 at 03:12:20 (GMT)
From: Salam
Email: None
To: Steve Quint
Subject: I thought this might be of interest to you
Message:
I am OK.

Is not live strange, a turn of a page...

Sure it is small world, ain't. Give Gwenda my regards next time you see her.

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Date: Wed, Nov 22, 2000 at 04:45:22 (GMT)
From: Steve Quint
Email: the_avenger55@hotmail.com
To: Salam
Subject: I thought this might be of interest to you
Message:
The Moody Blues got me started on the path to here. Isn't life strange?

By the way, when I decided I needed a job a couple of weeks ago Gwenda and her partner, a fellow who has been to many video events over many years and chose to never be 'initiated' and is also a good friend of mine, were the first ones I called.

Regards,

Steve

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Date: Wed, Nov 22, 2000 at 12:33:36 (GMT)
From: Salam
Email: None
To: Steve Quint
Subject: I thought this might be of interest to you
Message:
Well, I have hesitated posting these e-mails for about three months waiting for a reply, but since I never got it I thought I will not be breaching her confidence. I also did not want to push my point with her as I have given up long time ago telling strangers what to do. Hope you get the job but.
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Date: Wed, Nov 22, 2000 at 12:30:57 (GMT)
From: janet
Email: None
To: Steve Quint
Subject: you too? I just realized they started me too
Message:
I just saw it. I did my first acid after listening to all the moody blues albums in a row at college. then when i got tired of acid and wanted to profound experience without having to go find a dealer, again the moody blues came back into mylife.the entire two weeks i was waitng to be picked for knowledge, a bunch of us were tooling around pennsylvania in a vw bus going from program to program and from town to town, and the moody blues and the beatles last albums were all we played.damn
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Date: Wed, Nov 22, 2000 at 12:48:59 (GMT)
From: Steve Quint
Email: the_avenger55@hotmail.com
To: janet
Subject: you too? I just realized they started me too
Message:
The song that started loosening me from the grip of the con artist formerly known as m was Ride My See-Saw.

Hope you're well. I'm going through a lot of shite but am still hopeful about the future.

Steve

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Date: Wed, Nov 22, 2000 at 12:53:27 (GMT)
From: Steve Quint
Email: the_avenger55@hotmail.com
To: janet
Subject: For Sentimental Reasons, The Lyrics
Message:
Ride My See-Saw
(John Lodge)

Ride, ride my see-saw,
Take this place, on this trip, just for me.
Ride, take a free ride,
Take my place, have my seat, it's for free.

I worked like a slave for years,
Sweat so hard just to end my fears,
Not to end my life a poor man,
But by now, I know I should have run.

Run, run my last race,
Take my place, have this number of mine.
Run, run like a fire,
But don't you run in, in the lanes, run for time.

Left school with a first-class pass,
Started work but as second class,
School taught one and one is two,
But by now, that answer just ain't true.

My world is spinning around,

Everything is lost that I found,
People run, come ride with me,
Let's find another place that's free.
Ride my see-saw.

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Date: Wed, Nov 22, 2000 at 01:22:28 (GMT)
From: Sir Dave
Email: None
To: Salam
Subject: I thought this might be of interest to you
Message:
That's weird, calling Maharaji her teacher for 25 years but being coy about it. No, not weird but pretty average for a current premie.

I don't think Maharaji actually designed the web site himself. Someone here (Mike Dettmers I think) mentioned the name of the person who actually designed Maharaji's site. It'll be in the forum archives and when my search engine catches up with it, we'll find it.
.. Dave

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Date: Wed, Nov 22, 2000 at 15:05:01 (GMT)
From: TD
Email: None
To: Sir Dave
Subject: Jossi Fresco and Mary Wishard did web conversion
Message:
and techical bits. Sorry I got confused with the artwork and graphics being done entirely by Maharaji. Well it's the graphics that are the problem. Badly cut up and take ages to download.
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Date: Tues, Nov 21, 2000 at 15:29:40 (GMT)
From: Way
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: The Krishna children
Message:
Next Monday, on 20/20 Downtown, a report will be aired on the Hari Krishna children. These are the children of American Krishna devotees in the 70's, 80's, and 90's. There were horrible abuses, as has already been reported. But this show will feature some of the now-grown children themselves.
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Date: Thurs, Nov 23, 2000 at 05:48:28 (GMT)
From: Curious George
Email: None
To: Way
Subject: The Krishna children
Message:
This will be very interesting to watch.

Curious George

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Date: Tues, Nov 21, 2000 at 07:20:35 (GMT)
From: Steve Quint
Email: the_avenger55@hotmail.com
To: Everyone
Subject: If It's Not Scottish, It's Crap
Message:
And if it's Indian, it is.

That's the way I've been thinking lately. But why then do many or most 'spiritual' traditions and knowledge come from India? The only good explanation I can come up with is that different cultures have different roles and those roles evolve over time. The Indian culture may have had value, but I think it is bankrupt.

Steve

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Date: Tues, Nov 21, 2000 at 15:34:12 (GMT)
From: Steve Quint
Email: the_avenger55@hotmail.com
To: Everyone
Subject: Once More, With Sound Effect
Message:
A little sound effect here - page down once.

Check out the other sound clips, including the first one which is the technically correct way to address the con artist formerly known as m.

Steve

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Date: Tues, Nov 21, 2000 at 12:32:50 (GMT)
From: Sir Dave
Email: None
To: Steve Quint
Subject: If It's Not Scottish, It's Crap
Message:
Not only bankrupt but medieval and extremely primative. Hinduism is based upon negativity, the caste system and worshipping self proclaimed gods. It has no place in the West and if people really studied what Hinduism was about, they wouldn't touch it with a barge pole.
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Date: Wed, Nov 22, 2000 at 14:27:38 (GMT)
From: Steve Quint
Email: the_avenger55@hotmail.com
To: Sir Dave
Subject: If It's Not Scottish, It's Crap
Message:
I like your post, but I'm wondering what you mean by negativity in this context.

Thanks,

Steve

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Date: Thurs, Nov 23, 2000 at 12:46:12 (GMT)
From: Sir Dave
Email: sirdavid12@hotmail.com
To: Steve Quint
Subject: The basic Hindu negativity
Message:
What I mean by 'negativity' is the basic Hindu philosophy that people are born into the world because of some ridiculous idea of karma and that they have to escape from this world by practising Hinduism.

Basically, Hinduism preaches that the world is a bad place that you only came to out of error. They preach that everything here is a waste of time and you should spend your whole life practising Hinduism to prevent yourself from coming to this world again.

It's a very negative philosophy and one I've found to be completely untrue. In fact, the exact opposite philosophy appears to hold more truth - that this world is a good place to come to and explore. One can develope important relationships here and can learn much from them. Rather than detatch from the world, by getting into it, one's real spirit can shine and grow. This has been my experience.

.. Dave

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Date: Tues, Nov 21, 2000 at 15:40:30 (GMT)
From: TD
Email: None
To: Sir Dave
Subject: Why don't people go to Sweden for spirituality....
Message:
... rather than India? Has hell of a lot more to offer the human race than India does in terms of looking after humanity and being good to your fellow man ....

Mind you, the impact of a smiling starving sadhu covered in ash compared to a smiling Swedish junkie fed and housed in a hostel in Stockholm - has probably more of an effect on the spiritual 'tourist' ....

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Date: Tues, Nov 21, 2000 at 05:24:18 (GMT)
From: la-ex
Email: None
To: michael dettmers
Subject: Michael Dettmers-is m addicted to being worshipped
Message:
Michael-I have to say, that your posts are enlightening,and at times, hilarious, to say the least...

One, I think the part where you said that m got you into cigarettes, and then seemed miffed when you were able to give them up, and he didn't, borders on the hilarious....if there ever is a movie about m, this would make a great scene, or a series of scenes that would provide great comic relief...

Second, was m really inebriated or drunk 5 out of 7 days/week, for years on end?
What years were they?
Was he able to function then?(like flying?)

My question is this: Is m addicted to being worshipped?

I ask this, because I have only come to this conclusion in the last year or two.

Before this, I probably had the typical premie belief that maharaji toured constantly because he was trying so desparately to bring knowledge to the world....

Now I see it in this light: Maharaji is hopelessly addicted to being served, praised, worshipped and listened to as if he is were god...this has gone on from day one of his life....most kids ARE worshipped by their doting parents and family as very young children....the difference with maharaji is that he never outgrew that self-centered phase, as he became the 'perfect master' soon after that...I think this has led to his drinking problem....I think that any other kind of life would seem boring to him, although his life of constantly being served and worshipped is probably bringing him down further....

I never questioned that maharaji was 'experiencing knowledge'....I believed he was always peaceful, content, happy, fulfilled etc...and that the more I practiced knowledge, the more I would be having that experience....

It now seems that maharaji is probably the worst example for knowledge, not the best....he seems to be alcoholic, confused,deluded,narcissistic, hopelessly out of touch with people,arrogant...

Is this way you saw maharaji when you were with him?

This process is intriguing, as the story unfolds....

99% of the premies have never known a lot of this stuff, and I think the effect is extremely powerful as more premies find out about this stuff...

Thanks...

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Date: Tues, Nov 21, 2000 at 17:33:39 (GMT)
From: Jerry
Email: None
To: la-ex
Subject: Michael Dettmers-is m addicted to being worshipped
Message:
One, I think the part where you said that m got you into cigarettes, and then seemed miffed when you were able to give them up, and he didn't, borders on the hilarious....

Personally, la-ex, I think this is pretty fucking pathetic, and not funny at all. Here you've got a guy, Maharaji, droning on about the human race being enslaved by worldliness and how he's got the solution to that, and he can't even kick cigarettes. Fucking pathetic. Nothing funny at all.

Sorry if I've lost my sense of humour, but that was my reaction to Michael's revelation on Maharaji's cigarette habit. Not only that, but Maharaji actually got Michael hooked on them, and then when Michael kicked the habit, Maharaji felt uneasy about that? That's pathetic. How the hell does he go on stage after that to talk about what a master HE is while the rest of us are still trapped in the maya? The guy's got balls.

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Date: Tues, Nov 21, 2000 at 18:19:25 (GMT)
From: la-ex
Email: None
To: Jerry
Subject: Jerry-we're on same page,just see it differently..
Message:
Jerry-I agree with you whole-heartedly, but also with Susan as well.
It IS totally hypocritical....but when you think about it from a comic perspective, it's funny, very funny....
But I agree with you,in that if you don't see it as humorous, it would be totally bizarre and offensive.

Woody Allen once said, about writing comedy:

Rule #1- DON'T try to be funny.

Although that might sound contradictory, what he was saying was that when people TRY to be funny or cute, they generally are not.

People are the funniest, and most interesting to watch, when they are totally serious about their perspective...

Hope that explains where I'm coming from...

I do understand your disdain of m's hypocrisy....

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Date: Tues, Nov 21, 2000 at 21:54:35 (GMT)
From: Katie
Email: None
To: la-ex
Subject: Jerry-we're on same page,just see it differently..
Message:
La-ex, Jerry, et al. -
Someone who thinks they might be an alcoholic but won't admit it will often push other people to have drinks when they don't want them. I guess the same might be true for a smoker who is insecure about his habit or doesn't want to believe he can't quit. (I should add that I smoke, but would NEVER press cigarettes on anyone. Especially if I knew that they had suceeded in quitting! I try NOT to smoke around non-smokers.)

Anyway, I thought the story was kind of pitiful myself, for the above reason. I have alcoholic relatives who have literally tried to force me to have drinks when I did not want them - it is sad.

Take care,
Katie

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Date: Tues, Nov 21, 2000 at 16:33:42 (GMT)
From: Susan
Email: None
To: la-ex
Subject: LOL LOL...smoke scene!
Message:
I just cracked up at that. What a great idea. Just one of those things in the film that happens over and over, Rawat offering Michael the cigarettes.

Oh that would be SO funny.

Maybe I could encorporate it into my Disney ride? Give everyone a chance to 'Just say No' to the Guru?

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Date: Tues, Nov 21, 2000 at 18:58:12 (GMT)
From: la-ex
Email: None
To: Susan
Subject: LOL LOL...smoke scene!/Hold on,that's my idea!
Message:
Susan-glad to see that you appreciate my whacky sense of humour, especially concerning the 'cigarette routine'.

Many times comedy works in sets of three, if you study it-Maxwell Smart was a perfect example...

I think we would need three or maybe even four separate scenes to really do it justice...

Maybe something like:

Scene 1-m offers the unsuspecting devotee a butt. devotee takes it, not because he wants to, but because it's from the master....

Scene 2-m and devotee hopelessly addicted to smoking, and shown puffing together in all different scenarios, quickly, perhaps even in illegal places, where they clandestinely share a puff or two.....maybe backstage, after or before an event, or darshan, or a k-session, in a plane ...

Scene 3-devotee chews nic-o-lozenge or gum, or wears patch on arm, and encourages guru to do same....guru is resentful that devotee kicks habit, and he can't....

Scene 4-devotee takes guru to nicotine anonymous meeting to begin 12 step program....

Anyway, that was MY idea, and I want some residual income if you put it into your guru ride at the new age theme park....

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Date: Tues, Nov 21, 2000 at 06:05:32 (GMT)
From: Stonor
Email: None
To: la-ex
Subject: I am what I am given.
Message:
m seems to be stuck at the first stage of Erickson's lifecycles:

Erikson's premise is that each stage of life has its psychological 'chore' to either master and grow on, or fail and somehow get 'stuck' in some stage, sometimes for life.

The first stage of life, self identity is formed around 'I am what I am given.' An infant defines himself by those things around him. Deprived of essential 'things' he will fail to thrive. I'm talking about 'things' like touches and smiles and milk and warmth. Those that learn to trust can have faith.

The only problem is they don't mention the opposite extreme, over-indulged in unessential things, but I think it fits rather well as his self-image - and isn't self-image everything to m?

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Date: Mon, Nov 20, 2000 at 17:58:16 (GMT)
From: Sir Dave
Email: sirdavid12@hotmail.com
To: Everyone
Subject: Remembering our dear brother
Message:
This message is primarily for Janet of Venice because I've lost your email address and can't email you. But perhaps I should also put this message on the forum.

I have put your account of the final days and the sad end of Greg's life in the Shattered Lives section of my site. It is here:

Remembering our dear brother

However, I have omitted one whole paragraph of your original post because in that paragraph, reference was made to another person who could have mistakenly been thought to have been implicated in Greg's suicide.

I don't mean by this that you were implicating him. What I mean is that someone reading your account might have thought that this other person was somehow to blame for Greg's death. Perhaps even that person (who the paragraph was about) might read your account and think it was his fault when it clearly wasn't.

Anyway, having removed the paragraph, your account is not detracted from in any way and I feel it's better to keep other innocent people out of it, lest we cause pain for someone else.

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Date: Tues, Nov 21, 2000 at 10:48:47 (GMT)
From: A question
Email: None
To: Sir Dave
Subject: Re: Remembering our dear brother
Message:
Imagine following story:
A bloke believes in Jesus Christ. He meets some friends who fool him to sell his stuff to rent a flat so they can all live there. His friends are nobrainers and don't understand that they are not allowed to work in this country. As no one makes any money, they have to give up the flat. The poor bloke who has sold his only belongings has no job, and no place to live.
Finally he knocks on the door of a monastery of Jesus Christ and the monk in charge lets him live there for some days. The bloke don't want to move into the monastery and has to leave. Finally he returns to the old flat, breaks into it and puts his head into the owen and commits suicide:

Question: Who is responsible for the suicide:
A: Jesus Christ?
B: The monastery?
C: The poor bloke
D: His nobrainer friends?
What do you think?

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Date: Tues, Nov 21, 2000 at 16:32:59 (GMT)
From: Sir Dave
Email: None
To: A question
Subject: Re: Remembering our dear brother
Message:
In most cases, nobody can be blamed for a suicide. It's usually one last straw which breaks the camel's back and that last straw isn't to blame on its own.

Like the turning of a screw, a person can find life impossible to bear any longer as the screw becomes tighter. They see no other way out other than suicide.

That is the crossroads and if we can catch a person at that crossroad, we can hopefully help them and prevent them from ending their life.

If we can be aware of why people committed suicide and the circumstances which led to them ending their lives, maybe we can prevent it from happening too often or simply, stop one person from ending their lives. That would be enough.

.. Dave

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Date: Tues, Nov 21, 2000 at 15:13:41 (GMT)
From: Katie
Email: None
To: A question
Subject: Re: Remembering our dear brother
Message:
Please read Sir David's INTRODUCTION to these stories - he is not blaming anyone. I, for one, am glad they are on line, and am glad these people are remembered.
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Date: Tues, Nov 21, 2000 at 11:39:14 (GMT)
From: 1/o the nobrainer friends
Email: None
To: the questioner
Subject: all of the above and then some
Message:
you're baiting us.
you want us to say it was the guy's own fault and no one else is to blame.
you obviously have never done any suicide hotline counseling, never been in the military or combat training, or been suicidal yourself.
jesus never opened any monasteries or ashrams--just a point of difference.
jesus takes every suicide very much personally, as his failure to convey to each individual how deeply to value their life.
the no brainer friends know what part they played in his death, and what they should have done differently if they had been been living from their right place.
this monastery and that ashram were not comparable. this particular traveler might not have joined that monastery, but the traveler of my tale would have, gladly. he would not have joined , let us say, a Campus Crusade for Christ frat house. or perhaps NOT wanted to move into Jim and Tammy Faye Bakker's mansion and live with them there.
understand the difference?
and had he not encountered such guilt-laden, extreme teachings of the jesus freaks that told him how and what to believe, he would not have felt such utter despair and abandonment and betrayal when he came knocking on the door when turned away. I already know what you're gonna say to this, too.
but i reasert my original stand on this.
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Date: Tues, Nov 21, 2000 at 12:04:54 (GMT)
From: A question
Email: None
To: 1/o the nobrainer friends
Subject: Re all of the above and then some
Message:
Just to mention:
1. I have done real life counselling of 2 suicidal persons.
2. I had suicidal thoughts myself.
3. I have been in military and done cambat training.
4. One thing about M is that he allways talks abaout the gift of life. At least that has been an inspiration to me to go on in my life in spite of all the crap happening in in this world.
5. The easiest thing is to judge. I don't want to judge. But since a dear friend (not a premie) made an attempt to commit suicide, this interests me.
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Date: Tues, Nov 21, 2000 at 13:37:04 (GMT)
From: Salam
Email: None
To: A question
Subject: And you must be the biggest dumb ass I've seen
Message:
What is your story you idiot? I do not belive for a second what you have said. Give it up. Talk about something else. At least Sir Dave has some decencey to tell a true story and keep someone's name anonymos. Do you think your stupid attitude will really help anyone. Why don't you rinse your head before opining your stincking mouth?
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Date: Wed, Nov 22, 2000 at 11:48:55 (GMT)
From: A question
Email: None
To: Salam
Subject: Am I the biggest dumb ass you've seen
Message:
you have not seen a lot. Believe it or not, what I wrote is true.
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Date: Wed, Nov 22, 2000 at 14:17:17 (GMT)
From: Salam
Email: None
To: A question
Subject: you certainly are
Message:
This is not a contest about how much you or I have seen. I was in the meat grinder not long time ago and I appreciate it if you can stop carrying on about it. Capici.
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Date: Tues, Nov 21, 2000 at 10:01:22 (GMT)
From: janet
Email: None
To: Sir Dave
Subject: removing the paragraphs-i still disagree.
Message:
as i told you elsewhere, I feel that by leaving out the section that you did, it fails to describe how extremely we were exhorted to renounce the world, to seek shelter at maharaji's feet and in his ashram--and then when we did, the promised shelter was denied. i went to great pains to make it clear in my original submission that the housefather of the ottawa ashram tried to bend the rules as far as he could by letting greg stay, but he was ordered to tighten up and make no exceptions, and greg railed at him in all the same language we all had heard for years, about maharaji's ashram being the only place a true devotee who has given up everything, should turn.I don't think that implicates the housefather as a person. He was obviously in a terrible bind, and he had to do what he was told to. it does, however, clearly illustrate the hypocrisy and the chasm between words and deeds when one gave their life to the cult , followed and believed it verbatim
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Date: Tues, Nov 21, 2000 at 14:58:45 (GMT)
From: Sir Dave
Email: None
To: janet
Subject: removing the paragraphs-i still disagree.
Message:
I'm thinking about the ashram secretary who had to tell Greg to go away. He obviously didn't want to do this because in the beginning he said Greg could stay. Therefore, I don't feel it's right to mention him (and he could be identified) in the suicide of Greg.

I'm sorry about this but I can only do what I feel is right, even though it may seem wrong.

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Date: Tues, Nov 21, 2000 at 03:42:24 (GMT)
From: Stonor
Email: None
To: Sir Dave
Subject: Petty point I know, but ...
Message:
OttAwa IS the capital of Canada, if you have a minute maybe you could fix Janet's mis-spelling.

And good work, as always, Sir Dave.

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Date: Mon, Nov 20, 2000 at 20:18:11 (GMT)
From: Cynthai
Email: None
To: Sir Dave
Subject: Remembering our dear brother..thank you Sir D (nt)
Message:
nn
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Date: Mon, Nov 20, 2000 at 20:48:07 (GMT)
From: Cynthia
Email: None
To: janet
Subject: janet, I hope you're okay....be well....Cyn (nt)
Message:
nt
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Date: Tues, Nov 21, 2000 at 09:33:16 (GMT)
From: janet
Email: Jai_Choix@webtv.net
To: Cynthia and all
Subject: I'm fine. Greg deserved his life to be known
Message:
sir dave-my address is on every email i send. here it is again.
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Date: Mon, Nov 20, 2000 at 15:56:48 (GMT)
From: Salam
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: RAWAT you boofhead
Message:

Is it true that you read this forum at night after you have banged up Monica and drank half a bottle of Jack Daniel’s? Well I hope you chock on it you fat ugly greedy bastard. How does it feel that you’re losing them faster than they come you mongrel puffer?
Did anyone close to you ever told you that you stink you moron, if not well I just said you fat tub of lard. I hope you fall and break your leg you greasy sleaze bag.

(Again, I felt like saying that in a moment of inspiration)

Thank you all

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Date: Mon, Nov 20, 2000 at 19:45:12 (GMT)
From: Hal
Email: None
To: Salam
Subject: RAWAT you boofhead
Message:
Salam,

Have you got something against this guy ?

Hal

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Date: Mon, Nov 20, 2000 at 17:31:06 (GMT)
From: 20 years
Email: None
To: Rawat
Subject: I rebuke you with puke on your feet
Message:
icky icky icky
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Date: Mon, Nov 20, 2000 at 16:48:19 (GMT)
From: Yves
Email: None
To: Salam
Subject: RAWAT you are Master bathing
Message:
I despise all of you. I curse you with suffering. Have a bad day.
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Date: Mon, Nov 20, 2000 at 16:21:03 (GMT)
From: Sir Dave
Email: None
To: Salam
Subject: RAWAT you boofhead
Message:
So what you're actually saying here, Salam, is that you've not been feeling very devotional recently? Why don't you try putting up a few pictures of Maharaji around your home and playing some nice 'One Foundation' music.

I reckon that song by Rich Neal should get you back into the devotional spirit. How does it go now? ... 'I love you, I love you, I love you my Lord, I love you what more can I say? I love you, I love you, I love you etc etc.'

Don't worry, we'll soon get you feeling that devotion again. Maybe share some satsang, brother.

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Date: Mon, Nov 20, 2000 at 16:59:58 (GMT)
From: Cynthia
Email: None
To: Maharaji
Subject: Maharaji, you're a low class liar and cheat...
Message:
you son-of-a-fucking bitch! Go to hell. Give it up. Retire. Nobody loves you anymore.

You big overgrown, spoiled (at our expense) rat of a person. Ratwat--that's your name you low-life.

I know people living in trailers in Vermont where it gets to 40 F deg. below who have more integrity and love than you.

FAKE, LIAR, BETRAYER, EVIL DOER-----YOU...YOU....FUCKHEAD MAHARAJI!!!!

Cynthia, an EX-Premie and Proud of IT (YOU ASSHOLE)

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Date: Mon, Nov 20, 2000 at 19:34:18 (GMT)
From: Marianne
Email: None
To: Cynthia
Subject: Wheaties this A.M.?
Message:
Geez Cynthia, you must have had some powerful cereal this morning! Or lots of coffee. Or both.

How are you doing, girlfriend?

Marianne

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Date: Mon, Nov 20, 2000 at 20:20:57 (GMT)
From: Cynthia
Email: None
To: Marianne
Subject: Wheaties this A.M.? No Wheaties, just coffee....
Message:
and a lot of angst over the recent suicide threads.

I'm fine...just wanted to vent to you know who...just in case he reads this place.

Not to worry....

Love,
Cynthia

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Date: Mon, Nov 20, 2000 at 15:56:10 (GMT)
From: people finder
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: Randy Prouty
Message:
Randy Prouty has a new website, with an email contact, at http://www.worldassoc.net/

The company is involved with a multi-million dollar product for NASA. Some of the company's officials are former astronauts. Is any of this money going to Maharaji, without the clients knowing about it?

Has Randy been contacted directly by anyone regarding the Jagdeo problem and Randy's denials?

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Date: Mon, Nov 20, 2000 at 21:04:01 (GMT)
From: PHD
Email: None
To: people finder
Subject: Randy Prouty
Message:
I dont think Randy is still a PAM. According to a premie friend of mine he is not listed on 'first class' which is the in house email system. If you are not listed on first class you really ain't in the picture.
PHD
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Date: Mon, Nov 20, 2000 at 06:50:17 (GMT)
From: A wavering premie
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: Closure
Message:
I just sent the following email to Maharaji:
*********************************************
Dear Maharaji

You must be aware of all the things being written on an internet website known as the 'Ex-Premie Forum', most particularly the posts by Michael Dettmers. I have to tell you that I have been reading things there now for about a year, and more than anything else I have read there and agreed or disagreed with, Michael's calm, measured reporting of his own experiences and knowledge of 'behind the scenes' have had the most profound effect.

I've had doubts for a while now. Part of me would like to believe that somehow you know, thanks to some divine omniscience I was led to believe you have, or which perhaps I wanted you to have. But I have reached a pivotal point in my life and no longer consider myself a premie, and choose to move on..

I can't defend or rationalize the discrepancies between the reality projected by your publicity vehicle, Elan Vital, and my own experiences and perception of truth. The history outlined on the FAQ pages at elanvital.org is incredibly lacking both in facts and perspective. For them to say you were never presented to us as the Lord, the Perfect Master of our time, is so blatantly dishonest and deceptive that it made me return to the ex-premie forum and start to read things there with more objectivity. I kissed your feet many times, not because I was caught up in some residual Hindu culture, but because I believed what I had been told, and what my peers around me reinforced in me, that you were the Messiah.

If indeed you are the Messiah, then you must see how you have failed us poor mortals by allowing ambiguity and avoidance to cloud our minds? Many questions are raised every day, but not once have you responded. Perhaps you choose to maintain a dignified silence - by refusing to come and talk with us, man-to-man, you hope to preserve the aura of divinity and mystery which surrounds you? But can you not see that this is only compounding the problem?

Do you think I am the only premie who has had these doubts and concerns about you, yet still managed to maintain a facade of being 'plugged in'? There are hundreds, if not thousands, out there just like me - disillusioned, disappointed and confused. Maharaji, your aloofness and reticence is just making things worse, can't you see that?

Anyway, there's really nothing more to say. I seriously doubt you will take any of this to heart. After all, who am I, right? Do you even know? Will you reply to me in person, perhaps revealing things about myself that only I and my Creator could possibly know? Or will this be read by someone at EVs office, be cc'd to Security and Registration people so my name can be added to the bongo list, and never actually get to you? I guess I'll never know.

I don't hate you or despise you, as do many others who contribute to that forum. I am simply disappointed that you are not the Being I believed and needed you to be. My own fault? According to the FAQ's, yes, I 'projected my concepts' onto you. Did I really? You had no part to play in that? You have to look into your own heart to answer that, I know I have.

Barry Shaw
****************************************************************
God forgive me if I'm wrong. Now I need a drink and some support.

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Date: Tues, Nov 21, 2000 at 02:50:59 (GMT)
From: Helen
Email: None
To: A wavering premie
Subject: you did it--hurrah!
Message:
1. You're not wrong.
2. Support is here.
3. Have a stiff one on me!
and
Congrats on breaking away from the cult.

Helen

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Date: Tues, Nov 21, 2000 at 03:50:22 (GMT)
From: Bazza
Email: None
To: Helen
Subject: you did it--hurrah!
Message:
1. I'm pretty sure I'm not
2. I know, thanks all of you
3. You might wanna rephrase that, my wife reads this too!

cheers

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Date: Wed, Nov 22, 2000 at 22:24:55 (GMT)
From: Helen
Email: None
To: Bazza
Subject: you did it--hurrah!
Message:
HA HA Depends on what your definition of 'stiff' is!!

I MEANT a stiff drink, Mr. Smarty Pants
(;

Seriously, congrats. You'll find alot of support here, and don't let the arguing here distract you from your healing.
Helen

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Date: Tues, Nov 21, 2000 at 02:22:25 (GMT)
From: Jerry
Email: None
To: A wavering premie
Subject: Closure
Message:
God forgive me if I'm wrong. Now I need a drink and some support.

You're being true to yourself, wavering premie. You can't be that and wrong at the same time. Not about this.

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Date: Mon, Nov 20, 2000 at 21:45:16 (GMT)
From: Bin Liner
Email: None
To: A wavering premie
Subject: Welcome
Message:
To the ranks of the disconnected/interconnected/disillusioned.

That letter was a wonderful piece of work.

I hope his cognac goes down the wrong way if he ever reads it.

I don't hate him either , but I still would like him to choke.

All the best for the onward journey.

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Date: Mon, Nov 20, 2000 at 21:54:04 (GMT)
From: Bazza
Email: bshaw8@bellsouth.net
To: Bin Liner
Subject: Welcome
Message:
What kind of a name is Bin Liner??:) Hey if I can throw my real name out so can you, how 'bout it mate? What made a difference for me was seeing Steve Mulley's journey. Cant tell you how powerful it is to recognize a name in this place, especially someone you were in the ashram with.
Its up to you of course but it does seem odd that so many expremies do that. Anyway no matter. Email me if you know me from Manchester/London. Thanks for the support btw.
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Date: Tues, Nov 21, 2000 at 01:00:40 (GMT)
From: Bin Liner
Email: None
To: Bazza
Subject: It's a question of discretion
Message:

Mainly self-serving , but with an element of not wanting to upset certain friends , far scattered , until I can meet them face to face & explain my position vis a vis Rawat.

I never lived in an ashram , thank god ,& we don't know one another.

As for the name..... well , there's a story , but I won't bore you with the details.

Particularly as I don't want a cruise missile down the chimney.

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Date: Mon, Nov 20, 2000 at 21:19:12 (GMT)
From: Monmot
Email: None
To: A wavering premie
Subject: Closure
Message:
Dear Bazza:

Congratulations on a wonderful letter.

When I left M, it was a dark time for me. I left fairly early on and I took a lot of wicked nasty flak from premies for doing so. I began psychotherapy shortly after I left M, and I was fortunate to have found a therapist who had been in a cult herself (Yogi Bhajan) and knew what I was dealing with in terms of separating etc.

The old chestnut that 'when one door closes, another opens,' hit home one day as I was walking down the street and saw a man with a T-shirt that said, 'When one door closes, another opens. But the hallways sure are dark.' I laughed out loud when I saw that and it gave me the boost I needed to keep on moving out of 'culthead.'

Humor is always helpful in a situation like the one you now find yourself in, and it provided the philosopher's stone which transformed the base metal of cultdom into the gold of experience for me.

You've now left The Truman Show and have entered the real world. Congratulations.

All the best
Monmot

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Date: Mon, Nov 20, 2000 at 21:47:39 (GMT)
From: Bazza
Email: None
To: Monmot
Subject: Doorways
Message:
That was really nice of you Monmot. I thought for one awful minute you were going to give me the rap about 'doors always being open' (ie to return to the cult) etc

I wont need therapy. I might have if Id not taken the bull by the horns and chosen to free myself but Im actally doing fine.

I got a lot bottled up inside I know that. Might be good to write out the whole story and publish it.
I have a friend who is a division head at Knight Ridder media group, and she is always looking for a good story for their magazines and newspapers. I also have inroads into CNN and a bunch of natinal and local TV stations & newspapers through my work. I'd like to reach out to as many disillusioned premies as possible, and let them know its OK to walk away.

You guys have been great especially Mike dettmers, like to shake his hand one day for helping me find that courage too.

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Date: Tues, Nov 21, 2000 at 10:15:20 (GMT)
From: janet of venice
Email: Jai_Choix@yahoo.com
To: Bazza
Subject: Doorways--and media esp!
Message:
heyyyyy..you have connections????hmmmmmmm...media....truth...mass exposure....we got the goods..they have the means.....what would you say to funnelling the really damaging stuff we have here, out thru their vehicles of mass publication?even premies read the papers and watch the news, now...and the FBI, IRS, they do too...tasty, eh?
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Date: Tues, Nov 21, 2000 at 19:52:42 (GMT)
From: Bazza
Email: None
To: janet of venice
Subject: Media
Message:
Hi Janet

Got your email btw, thanks.

Well I have to say that wasnt quite what I had in mind right now. I'm not 'on a mission' to let loose the dogs of war here, I just wanted to tell my story, from my own perspective and perhaps reach out to those premies who are unhappy because like me they are living a lie. That doesnt mean I defend or disagree with any of that other stuff,I think its not my calling to be an 'activist', least not yet. Hope you understand that.

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Date: Mon, Nov 20, 2000 at 23:05:51 (GMT)
From: Cynthia
Email: None
To: Bazza
Subject: You Sound So Good
Message:
Is Bazza a nickname you prefer to Barry? You do sound so relieved. I felt that too when I reached the point of no returning.

I love that you have connections to possibly publish something. Personal journaling has helped me quite a bit, too. I don't want to dash your hopes of receiving a letter back from Maharaji, but it isn't likely.

I've never heard of anyone except perhaps an x-rated PAM receiving any response from the M camp to letters.

I wish you the best in everything you do, free of those ties. You deserve it. You've earned it. Be good to yourself--the road ahead may become rough. But you know what? Maybe it doesn't have to be difficult for everyone and I wish you an easy ride out of that cult.

Your courage is an inspiration to me. Welcome to the other side of the fence....where the grass really is greener.

Love,
Cynthia

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Date: Tues, Nov 21, 2000 at 00:58:40 (GMT)
From: Bazza
Email: None
To: Cynthia
Subject: You Sound So Good
Message:
Cynthia, Bazza is just a nickname I generally use when I'm emailing my friends. I lived in Australia for a couple of years where Bazza is what you automaticaly get called if your name is Barry. Same thing for Gary = Gazza, etc. got to love those aussies. I thought it was neat so I stuck to it. I've an old friend too from manchester always called me baz. Actually it was 'little Baz' becuase there already was a 'big Baz'. So anyway it seemed appropraite for in here where there are a lot of weird names anyway!

I'm just going to start writing things down and let memories come through. I might have to get my friend to rewrite it though because my typing sucks.This week is a good week anyway becaause of the holidays I've no work to do so I can just type away. Just bought a big stack of Boddingtons to lubricate the old brain a bit.

I'm not looking at it as being an escaped victim of the cult, though in truth that is waht it is, but rather that I've chosen to be true to myself and face the awful truth that Ive allowed myself to be deluded for half of my life. Now the way forward looks full of possibility and hope, whereas before all I clung onto was the little crumbs of attention I got from maharaji in the form of my 'service opportunities'. How much I lived for that, how much it became the yardstick by which I measured my success in this life.

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Date: Tues, Nov 21, 2000 at 02:01:44 (GMT)
From: gErRy
Email: None
To: Bazza
Subject: Maharaji's little world
Message:
Now the way forward looks full of possibility and hope, whereas before all I clung onto was the little crumbs of attention I got from maharaji in the form of my 'service opportunities'. How much I lived for that, how much it became the yardstick by which I measured my success in this life.

Welcome back.

PS Don't ever say 'this life ' here again.

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Date: Tues, Nov 21, 2000 at 15:42:27 (GMT)
From: AJW
Email: None
To: gErRy
Subject: LOL :) nt
Message:
ha ha
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Date: Tues, Nov 21, 2000 at 04:01:41 (GMT)
From: Bazza
Email: None
To: gErRy
Subject: Maharaji's little world
Message:
I guess standard HTML tags work here?
PS Don't ever say 'this life ' here again.

I wasnt even aware of saying it. How scary is that? Hey its going to take some time to reinvent my vocabulary too you know! Hadnt realized just how much I talked in premie sound-bytes. Sooorry.

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Date: Tues, Nov 21, 2000 at 06:24:04 (GMT)
From: Stonor
Email: None
To: Bazza
Subject: pssst
Message:
(don't tell gErRy I told you this, but I'm not a premie and I talk like that)

What? I didn't say anything!

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Date: Mon, Nov 20, 2000 at 17:35:50 (GMT)
From: Mickey the Pharisee
Email: None
To: A wavering premie
Subject: Closure
Message:
Thank you for sharing your letter with us, and congrats on making that important decision to take back 'the reigns of your life,' as the far-from-perfect-master used to say.
Now that you have reclaimed your life, you will actually be able to enjoy life without crediting that enjoyment to some person who doesn't even know you exist. You will also be able to experience the not so great aspects of life without blaming yourself for everything that goes wrong. You are in for an adventure, and we are here to help you.
God bless you.
Padre Mickey
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Date: Mon, Nov 20, 2000 at 16:13:08 (GMT)
From: Gail
Email: None
To: Barrie
Subject: Congratulaton
Message:
Dear Barrie:

Thank you so much for your post. It must have taken a great deal of courage to write this to Maharaji and then to post it here. You are most correct in your assessment of Maharaji's projection of himself as the Lard of the Universe.

Unfortunately, the seconds...minutes...hours...days...years...and decades you and I have wasted on this farce will never come back. Maharaji has a lot to answer for, but it doesn't look like he's paying up at this time. Speaking of egos the size of a small planet, I doubt that meglomaniac Maharaji can take responsibility for his actions--after all he's THE PERFECT MASTER.

Although I doubt it very much, I hope there is a vengeful god out there somewhere that will take its toll on Sant Ji for all his treacherous deceptions.

All the best to you Barrie. It's a slow crawl out of the Lard's realm but well worth the skinned knees.

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Date: Mon, Nov 20, 2000 at 16:04:33 (GMT)
From: Katie
Email: None
To: A wavering premie
Subject: Closure
Message:
Hi Barry -
That was a very brave letter. I think you were right to write it, but I do understand the apprehension you might feel after having sent it. I felt the same way after renouncing Maharaji - it's not easy.

Be nice to yourself, and realize that you might go through some mood swings and feelings of grief or regret after having done this. It's hard to lose something you've believed in for so long. You can get support here - we've all been through it.

Take care -
Katie

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Date: Mon, Nov 20, 2000 at 17:35:51 (GMT)
From: Bazza
Email: None
To: Katie
Subject: Closure
Message:
Thank you katie, I'm a bit overwhelmed by the kind responses here.
There was a lot more I tried to say at first but the email function on maharaji.org is javascript based and limits you to 3200 characters. I kept getting the error message 'please be concise, limit 3200 charcters'.
I kept thinking that after 23 years and all the effort, money and devotion I've given the guy, I'm supposed to sum up my feelings in a half dozen paragraphs?
I wonder if I will get a reply to my email? I'll be sure and let you all know, because there are a lot of premies out there who deserve to know if in fact maharaji does care enough to respond to someone who's been a 'student' since 1977 and is in trouble. What's the point of having a 'living master' if there's no interaction? May as well follow a dead one, right?
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Date: Mon, Nov 20, 2000 at 15:36:26 (GMT)
From: Nigel
Email: firztroy.liverpool.ac.uk
To: A wavering premie
Subject: Closure (or opening time?)
Message:
Greetings, Barry!

Bold post, well said, and welcome ashore.

I will buy you that drink if you're anywhere near Liverpool UK. As for the support, I promise you'll find plenty of it from among the exes here. Perhaps if you find this forum a bit too open, you might also consider the 'recent exes' forum - set up especially for folk like yourself.

Also, you might at some point find it useful as an act of closure to write a 'journeys' entry for the ex-premie.org main site. Many here have found it helps a lot.

Excellent letter to M, by the way. I hope many other premies feel moved to write in similar terms. You will not, of course, receive any reply from the tubster - but at least you've had the courage to post it here where it will probably do a lot more good.

Take care,
Nigel

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Date: Mon, Nov 20, 2000 at 13:42:20 (GMT)
From: Scott T.
Email: None
To: A wavering premie
Subject: Closure
Message:
Barry:

I wrote a letter very much like that in 1982, in which I simply asked Maharaji to clarify the issue of whether he was, or was not, the Messiah. I got back a hastily prepared form letter to the effect that Maharaji was merely someone who was trying to keep people from getting seasick, or some such nonsense. It struck me as incredibly evasive, and basically broke the spell. It appears that you are at the same point. Best of luck.

--Scott

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Date: Mon, Nov 20, 2000 at 13:36:18 (GMT)
From: Rick
Email: None
To: A wavering premie
Subject: Closure
Message:
Welcome, Barry. Glad you made it in from the cold. Life after maharaji is fine. Okay, sometimes it isn't that great but at least it isn't pretend. Pull up a seat.
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Date: Mon, Nov 20, 2000 at 12:05:06 (GMT)
From: jondon
Email: None
To: A wavering premie
Subject: Closure
Message:
Barry, you wrote: 'You (M) must be aware of all the things being written on an internet website known as the 'Ex-Premie Forum', most particularly the posts by Michael Dettmers'

He does know exactly what is being written here. Not through his lardly omniscience, but through his crack staff of PR people who have been assigned to follow ex's posts and report back to the heads there. They in turn fill him in on what's going on. Although I'm sure not VERBATUM. (I believe he spends some time reading here late at night {after Monica has completed her service and returned to her room} whilst sipping courvosier from a heated snifter).

The premies around me are all aware of this site and are very interested in Michaels reporting. They are all becoming suspect of the club to which they belong and the fact that the leader (the man behind the curtain) may not be what he says he is. They do fear letting on to other premies that they visit this site for fear of being ostricized, but the game is afoot and the movement away from their master has begun.

I commend you on your honesty and courage to step forward. It will make an impact on the premies that I know who visit this site.

jondon

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Date: Mon, Nov 20, 2000 at 18:05:35 (GMT)
From: Bazza
Email: bshaw8@bellsouth.net
To: jondon
Subject: Peer pressure
Message:
Thank you for that jondon. That fear of what other premies would think and say was one of the big fears which held me back for so long, the other being fear of leaving the Living Lord's Grace.

But when you know you are living a lie, the pressure it created for me eventually overpowered those fears and knew I had to break through them. I had thought at first of using an Psudonim like a lot of others here do, but for me that would have been just more deceipt, and I can't stand up and accuse him or EV of deception from behind a mask, it just doesnt carry any power. And I have found this to be very empowering. Surrendering your life to someone robs you of that personal power you were born with and are entitled to, and preserving a few shallow friendships and the respect of the local premie community is no substitute.

The last thing I want to do is to try to change anyones committment to knowledge. If its working for you and you are clear about who maharaji is and you are happy, then well you wouldn't be reading this anyway, would you? But the people who know me, and there are plenty of them around, will be surprised, I know, because I've been a front-liner pretty much since '77, but guess what, its easy to wear the costume of a good premie, talk the talk and smile the smile, but I knew I wasnt being honest with myself. So only you know what is going on deep down inside your heart, and even then you can fool yourself for years, rather than face those fears head on.

I'd invite anyone who does know me to get in touch, because I'm not afraid any more, and I feel its crucial to be real about this.

Last night, before I wrote the letter, I went out for a drink and a girl stopped me on the street and handed me a magazine from a 'spiritual community' (bring back memories?) Anyway I flipped open the back cover and this quote jumped out at me:

'Life won't let you get away with pretending. Life doesn't tolerate bullshit. Lieing to yourself will make you sick, depressed, hurt.....you'll end up doing something that makes you face the truth about yourself. Life is like that. Its tough. The truer you become, the more alive you are, the more your life opens up, the more you get what you want.'

I'm starting to feel that already.

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Date: Mon, Nov 20, 2000 at 11:00:50 (GMT)
From: Patrick
Email: None
To: A wavering premie
Subject: Closure
Message:
Hi Barry
your letter pretty much reflects my feelings too. It reminds me of a letter I wrote to M. in Amaroo some years ago, in which I poured out my honest troubled feelings (without any back up from ex-premie forum of course, since it did not exist back then).

In the writing of that letter I experienced a surge of growth (is that the right word?) and emotion. I posted the letter but never heard further. I wonder if you will get a reply. I'm afraid that I doubt it.

You must be aware of all the things being written on an internet website known as the 'Ex-Premie Forum', most particularly the posts by Michael Dettmers.

From the conversations that I have had recently with 'involved' premies, it would seem that the general view of this website and the dissenters therein, is that the latter are a relatively inconsiderable minority and thus represent little threat to Maharaji and his plans for propagation.
Maharaji has pointed out that the Master has always had opposition of one sort or another and that it is to be expected but is of almost no consequence.

I wholeheartedly agree with your sentiments and also think that you are right to put your name to your letter.
I wrote anonymously here for a long time and now am rather ashamed that I didn't earlier demonstrate the 'sincerity' of my feelings by using my name. Life is too short to be cowering in fear of expressing your honest feelings. I got some flak for being anonymous both from ex-premies and premies (who knew I posted here). Quite rightly I think.

God forgive me if I'm wrong. Now I need a drink and some support.

I too have always been nervous about God's involvement in all this. This is especially because , before I ever heard of M and like many youngsters, I prayed earnestly for the real God to stand up and reveal himself from amongst the plethora of religions and beliefs that were on offer.

Maharaji's arrival in England co-incided with my natural youthful hopefulness, and this coupled with his own youthful sincerity and confidence seemed like a prayer answered.
26 years later (a relatively short time in eternity) I find myself again knocking at God's door saying 'Excuse me, but I think I may have been caught up in a very elaborate hoax - how could you have let this happen after all my earnest pleas??'

The temptation to add 'please correct me if I'm wrong' is tempered by the realisation that if God indeed turned out to be an authoritative Old Testament character who was big on intimidation and secrecy I would rather be permanently snuffed out than forever be his sycophantic fearful follower.

Let me attempt to share with you an encouraging thought that has occurred to me.

Should we not wish to entirely abandon the notion of there being a God, and since our consciences are now driving us to question the 'Divine Inspiration' or 'Authority' of this 'Master' (who we have trusted in that capacity for years) let us be enboldened in our current realisations by considering the following.

Maybe that enigmatic and elusive Divinity, God or whatever you wish to call it, is in truth guiding us now to stand up and resist the deluding forces of which we have inadvertently and for so long become victims. In other words, if we like to believe that our prayers were heard and that our involvement with Maharaji was in some way with God's blessing, then we could perhaps also imagine that the real God required some dedicated individuals to familiarise themselves at length with the Guru set up so that they would be later, better armed to expose the vagaries of the religions and cults that blight his world!

Alternatively, my own feeling is to adopt the rather more brutally realistic, yet honest, attitude whereby I am reluctant to entertain any particular beliefs or explanations about what has happened.

All I know is there are many things that I see wrong with Maharaji's current set up which make it impossible for me to continue to lend him my support, fully trust him, or to believe that the meditational practices are as healthy or important a pursuit as he would have us believe.

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Date: Mon, Nov 20, 2000 at 09:37:46 (GMT)
From: PHD
Email: None
To: A wavering premie
Subject: A man of courage,I salute you (nt)
Message:
nt
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Date: Mon, Nov 20, 2000 at 09:03:03 (GMT)
From: AJW
Email: None
To: A wavering premie
Subject: Da da da der da da der (tune- Great Escape)
Message:
Hoooooray,

Another prisoner emerges from the tunnel into the outside world after years of incarceration in Stalag Luft Golden Age.

Welcome to the Imperfect World where we take responsibility for our own actions and you can go to sleep without feeling guilty you didn't poke yourself in the eyes for 20 minutes.

The first thing you need to know is that the guards don't come after you- in fact they're scared to leave the camp in case they can't find their way back and they have to start thinking for themselves. If you shout things at them over the fence they cover their ears and run and hide.

It's also lovely to find that the Universe works perfectly well without any help from our dear old Lard. All that stuff he fed us about 'breaking into a thousand pieces' if we left the Master is complete and utter bollocks.

Once you make the step Barry, the whole thing unravels by itself. It's wonderful to watch.

Anth the Unravelling Ex-con

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Date: Mon, Nov 20, 2000 at 08:37:12 (GMT)
From: Hal
Email: steve.mulley@clix.pt
To: A wavering premie
Subject: Closure
Message:
Barry,

I commend your sincerity and courage. A very heartfelt and articulate letter to Maharaji.

You'll probably feel a bit wobbly ,I did , but right next to you is a feeling of exhilaration too !

You know where I am if you need my support,

Love
Steve

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Date: Mon, Nov 20, 2000 at 17:23:27 (GMT)
From: Bazza (to my friends)
Email: None
To: Steve
Subject: Thanks for your support.....
Message:
I'll wear all the time:)

Steve you've already helped in a tremendous way with the emails you shared, so thank you for that.

Me and the wife were thinking of grabbing our mutual friend and coming over your way next year for hols, you be up for that?

bazza

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Date: Mon, Nov 20, 2000 at 08:22:59 (GMT)
From: Susan
Email: None
To: A wavering premie
Subject: a very heartfelt hello to you
Message:
Dear Barry,

I just want to say your letter is very touching and well written. You have every right to a response. Your feelings and questions are of course so valid.

In a way, in this strange world we live in, I beleive that when those of us who have left make the choice to face the cult, and Rawat, for what they are we get our souls back. The guru likes to take credit for all that is wonderful and lovely in this world. What you will discover is that there is wonder and magic in the world, and it has nothing to do, at all, with him. I think, when you are free, you can truly discover all that life has to offer, and you don't have to lie to yourself to do it.

Your letter shows a lot of courage. My best wishes to you and thank you for posting it.

Susan

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Date: Tues, Nov 21, 2000 at 02:54:15 (GMT)
From: Helen
Email: None
To: Susan
Subject: a very heartfelt hello to you
Message:
well said Susan! How could M ever have sold us this cheap idea that he held the monopoly on magic and wonder? It IS so much better without him.
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Date: Mon, Nov 20, 2000 at 11:00:59 (GMT)
From: Happy
Email: None
To: Barry
Subject: congratulations!
Message:
Welcome back to reality!

A very well-written letter, and I recognize all the steps you're going through from my own life. The doubts, getting stronger and stronger, until you cannot ignore them any longer. And life is much happier, much better, without a guru and without the elusive dream of enlightenment.

Sure, first it feels weird that there is no such thing as a perfect master or an enlightened person. I remember the first time I decided NOT to go to satsang, and NOT to go to see M. First, I was really scared. I wondered what would happen to me. But, of course nothing happened! When I realized there was no punishment, no bad karma, I almost got angry... But then I just started to laugh. What a silly fool I had been for so many years!
And what a release it was, to finally grasp that I, and nobody else, had the full responsibility for my life. For the first time, I felt I was fully grown-up. Not in heaven, not in bliss, just awake, like awakening from a bad dream.

People think, when they leave their faith, that it will feel like having surgery, cutting a big chunk from your heart. That's the big scare. But if you're suffering from cancer, you are not scared of having it cut away, the opposite. Think of it that way. It's getting cured.

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Date: Mon, Nov 20, 2000 at 16:53:17 (GMT)
From: Cynthia
Email: None
To: Barry
Subject: Great Letter!
Message:
Dear Barry,

That letter was a big step. It's great to doubt M guilt-free. Isn't it great to jump out of bed in the morning and into bed at night and NOT do meditation?

To all the premies lurking and doubting: It's a process of withdrawal to walk away. To say Fuck You Maharaji for betraying me. It's really, really okay to do it.

Nothing happens except true freedom from his nasty grasp on our lives. There are ups and downs, but the best payoff is living well.

It's possible.

Be well,
Cynthia

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Date: Tues, Nov 21, 2000 at 21:00:05 (GMT)
From: cq
Email: None
To: Cynthia
Subject: PMJI (pardon me jumping in)
Message:
Yup, Barry has taken a big step, and when he said:
quote:

'I am simply disappointed that you are not the Being I believed and needed you to be.
My own fault? According to the FAQ's, yes, I 'projected my concepts' onto you.
Did I really?
You had no part to play in that? You have to look into your own heart to answer that, I know I have.'

it struck me that the man was saying it like he really felt it (or am I just over-empathising?)


Anyway, I've just gotten online again since posting last Saturday, and saw that you took the trouble to reply to my post about the EV newsletter. Coincidence? Why doubt it? (!)

What Mitch Ditkoff and Linda Pascatto are pitching for is simple really.

'Participate and be helpful' is the price they (and of course their Svengali, Maharaji) want people to think they SHOULD have to pay for the so-called 'free gift' of 'Knowledge'.

Of course, if it really was free, it wouldn't be worth keeping secret, would it?
.
.
.
Ain't that keeping it simple?

Let's wait and see how simple they can make it.

Wish,

Chris

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Date: Sun, Nov 19, 2000 at 21:51:42 (GMT)
From: Michael Dettmers
Email: dettmers@gylanix.com
To: Everyone
Subject: My responses to la-ex
Message:
La-ex:

Here are my answers to the questions in your post of November 12, 2000.

1. What do you think kept so many of us involved in such a devoted manner for so long? How could we, and especially the PAMS (who saw so much contradictory and hypocritical behavior) not see through so much of this sooner?

I believe that each person has to answer this question for him or herself. Speaking for myself, I already answered this question when I said that my position was a 24/7 occupation. I regularly put in 18-hour days and, even when I wasn’t working, I was always “on call.” After being in this situation for years on end, my body and mind coupled to the environment. I simply didn’t have or take the time to reflect on what I was doing with my life in a general sense because I was so preoccupied with getting through the next tour, or completing the next project, or handling this or that problem. It was an all-consuming job that left little or no time for myself.

2. Wasn't there talk about maharaji's drunkenness and drug use, especially since it seemed so out of control, amongst people around him? Were there discussions amongst good friends about the hypocrisy of all this? And what to do about it? Didn't people feel guilty about going out into communities and talking it up for maharaji when they knew that in his real life he was so screwed up?

There was very little trust and openness among the premies around Maharaji. I suspect that very few considered themselves as good friends. Most were scared of losing their positions as there were literally dozens of premies waiting in the wings to replace them, and Maharaji never failed to remind people around him of that fact. Consequently, an atmosphere of fear and competition prevented people from really speaking what they thought or felt with each other in case their moment of indiscretion might get reported to Maharaji, costing them their positions.

My position was somewhat different than most of the premies around Maharaji. When Maharaji drank, he often offered me a drink as well. He also offered me cigarettes. Before I met Maharaji, I never smoked cigarettes. Within a year of being around him, I became addicted to cigarettes. In time, I began asking myself why was I smoking. Shortly thereafter I quit. I don’t think Maharaji liked that very much because he continued to offer me cigarettes which I politely declined. He had tried a couple of times to quit without success and I think my refusal to join him made him uncomfortable.

At parties and special events, Maharaji provided drinks, champagne, wine, cigarettes and dope for all of the x-rated staff. In this way, he co-opted those closest to him into a conspiracy of silence because we all got to participate, some more than others, in his secret.

3. Were you the only one to confront maharaji about his behavior? Did his wife confront him? Did he get counseling, or would he even listen to a therapist or counselor? What do you think is the main reason for his drinking problem?

I believe I am the only person who confronted him about his drinking. Marolyn was certainly in a position to do so, but she found it easier to join him in his drinking than to take issue with it. While I was around, he never got counseling about his drinking. You can re-read my posts about the San Yisidro conference to get an idea about his reactions to a form of counseling even though that conference was not organized to address his drinking problem.

In my post to Peter Howie yesterday I said that, in my opinion, his excessive drinking and profligate spending were desperate attempts to fill a void that, according to his own teachings, only knowledge can satisfy. In saying this, I am not advocating anything positive about knowledge. I am simply pointing out that Maharaji's himself behaved in a way that strongly suggests that he did not to believe nor practice what he preached.

4. When you said earlier that maharaji didn't seem to care about his work or his own life, what behaviors of his caused you to think this way? Did you ever have an in depth talk about this with him, as someone who cared about him?

Maharaji’s excessive drinking and his profligate spending as well as his abusive behavior especially when he was drunk led me to the conclusion that he did not care about his life or his work. When I confronted Maharaji about his drinking, I did so out of love and concern for him.

5. When you said that 'night after night' at the residence maharaji would be getting stoned with the premies, and that you have seen him 'countless' times inebriated at different places...Was this over a short period of time, like 6 months-one year, where he may have been in turmoil over a specific situation in his life, and then gave it up? Or was this behavior that has gone on continuously for years and years?

The behavior continued for years. It was not a periodic event.

6. Are there other former PAMS that you know that would shed more light on this situation? Would you contact them? I'm not recommending or requesting that you name them, or that they identify themselves on the forum, but I do feel that the more we know, the better off we are...

There are definitely many PAMS who could shed further light on this situation. I have spoken with some of them but, for the moment at least, they are unwilling to come forward.

Michael

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Date: Tues, Nov 21, 2000 at 00:26:11 (GMT)
From: Curious George
Email: None
To: Michael Dettmers
Subject: Monica Lewis theory or fact?
Message:
Dear Michael,

Did you know anything about Monika Lewis? Was she/Is she his mistress? Did she go on tour with him sometimes as previously mentioned by another ex? Are there any other women that were/are sexualy abused by M through his abuse of power?

Enquiring minds like mine want to know! I deserve to know after devoting myself to this creep for 30 years.

Thanks Michael,

Regards,

Curious George

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Date: Mon, Nov 20, 2000 at 03:05:40 (GMT)
From: Susan
Email: None
To: Michael Dettmers
Subject: interesting as usual, and a few more questions
Message:
like Rick, I thought the Guru trying to get you to smoke again was the most interesting thing.

One thing I really enjoy about your posts is the opportunity they give one to see Rawat 'behind the curtain'. There are a lot of things I have always been curious about you have answered. If you and I were say, discussing this over dinner, I would have a lot more questions, here are a few, not in order of importance:

Is your sense that Marolyn ever doubts the devotional trip? What is your view of her? What on earth do his kids think about all of it? I suppose they were still kids when you left though.

Could you sort of describe a typical day for the guru when you were around? We all know he has a very jet set ( jet included ) lifestyle. What are some of the details of the way he lives and is waited on ( or was in your day ).

When Rawat interacts with non premies who also have a lot of money, do you think he is threatened by people who have more than he does? Do you think he has any sense of shame about the way he has come to be so wealthy? I get this sense he judges a person's value by how much they have. I have this sense that he is threatened by people with more money and more education than he has. Any truth in this?

Did you observe any use of drugs besides marijuana and alchohol?

Do you think Raja Ji believes in the scam or is it the 'family business'?

Did Rawat ever use his postion as Lord of the Universe to obtain sexual favors as is rumoured?

How do you think Rawat views the rights of other people and what is the worth of other people? Any difference in how he treats premies and non premies? I was interested in the threats to replace the PAMs with all the premies waiting in the wings to replace them. Bizarre, and so true, we were all waiting to replace them. Anything else like that, that sort of thing, like the wanting you to smoke and those threats, things that really flush out his character.

Thanks Michael!


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Date: Mon, Nov 20, 2000 at 14:15:36 (GMT)
From: Blue Max
Email: None
To: Susan
Subject: interesting as usual, and a few more questions
Message:
Susan,

Very thoughtful questions. I, like many others look forward to Michael's response. A look behind the scenes is therapeutic to say the least.

One thing though..

Not all of us were waiting to 'take their place'. Some saw through the inner circle, high school clique, Communist politburo, bastion mentality. We took the method, paid VERY close attention to what was being said, did the internal work and benefited as advertized.

One voice was heard...but still we pray for closure.

Blue Max

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Date: Mon, Nov 20, 2000 at 16:31:38 (GMT)
From: Susan
Email: None
To: Blue Max
Subject: very true
Message:
You are right, I knew a lot of people who did not aspire to be PAMs the way I did. I stand corrected and I admire that you were not playing the game back then.
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Date: Mon, Nov 20, 2000 at 23:35:58 (GMT)
From: Blue Max
Email: None
To: Susan
Subject: very true
Message:
Susan,

It was painful to go against the prevailing winds at that time,
being rather young like most of us were.

I was a natural rebel in college and when I detected the politburo high school model, I railed against it anywhere I encountered it.

Coupled with some very intense LSD sessions using the Tibetan Book of the Dead as a reference, I barreled into Knowledge and focused on the process and results.

What Maharaji did or does makes no difference to me. He was, and remains, a signpost with his own dragons and skeletons to answer
for. His biggest mistake in my opinion was in setting up the ashrams the way he did. Most folks were not ready for what was required, being westerners in nature and temperment. He should have done it JUST for those who wanted to be initiators. That's an opinion only, open for discussion.

I'd love to hear other's thoughts on that subject.

I got my own dragons to deal with...and the weaponry to do it. That I AM grateful for.

Blue Max

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Date: Mon, Nov 20, 2000 at 04:19:28 (GMT)
From: suchabanana
Email: None
To: Susan +Michael Dettmers
Subject: Monica Lewis, April Gillam, bimbo eruptions? nt
Message:
nt
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Date: Mon, Nov 20, 2000 at 03:51:38 (GMT)
From: Marianne
Email: MarianneDB@aol.com
To: Michael
Subject: Jonestown Remembered and Ultimate Responsibility
Message:
Yesterday was the 22nd anniversary of the mass suicide in Jonestown, Guyana, as well as the killing of Congressman Leo Ryan, who bravely went to Guyana to investigate charges that Peoples Temple members were being held there against their will. Every year, there is a memorial service in Oakland at the mass grave where most of the Peoples Temple members were buried after their bodies were brought back from Guyana.

Every time I read one of Michael's posts about how Maharaji really behaved, how he really treated those closest to him, and how those with special access to Maharaji behaved, I see the shadows of Peoples Temple. Some of you may get tired of this comparison, but it is very important to grasp the significance of this connection. Peoples Temple represents the absolute worst situation that could occur as a result of unquestioning devotion to a charismatic leader and the ideals s/he promotes. I lived in San Francisco during the time that Peoples Temple was a political force in this city. PT carried out the kinds of political and social activism that many of us had hoped DUO would. PT fed the hungry, gave shelter to the poor and elderly, provided free medical care to those in need, and created a truly multi-cultural church community with a progressive political agenda. By all outward appearances, PT was a progressive, multi-ethnic community which was practicing what it preached.

But in the early '70's, the same kinds of behavior emerged within the hierarchy of PT and those close to Jim Jones as exists around Maharaji, as described by Michael. At this point, Jones was 'Father' to the PT members -- the functional equivalent of the Lord of the Universe. Those close to him knew that he was carrying out fake healings of the sick (in fact, they assisted in the charade); they knew he had sexual relationships with several women who were in high church positions, even though he was married and had 5 children and his wife was a revered figure in the church; they knew he was abusing alcohol and prescription drugs; they knew that he had faked an incident where it appeared he had been shot in the chest only to miraculously recover -- proving his divinity. These people around Jones also competed for their special place in his inner circle, even though what they witnessed showed that Jones's life was completely at odds with what he was preaching to his congregation. In their myopic desire to be close to their perceived God --to be the Archangel Michael -- they lost all perception of what was really happening in their community. They too were worked til exhaustion, too tired to question the wisdom of their position and pursuit. Had the people around Jim Jones paused to consider the dichotomy between Jones' preachings and his behavior, they might have been a small cog that stopped the exodus to Guyana and the loss of so much precious life.

M's behavior is totally at odds with his teachings. Those around him know that, painfully so, it seems. I am absolutely appalled that people put up with abusive behavior by a confused alcoholic in the seeming pursuit of perfection. It ain't perfection. IT IS ABUSE. You do not need or deserve it, and anyone who suggests otherwise is horribly misguided. Those close to M who have left the fold and who know this information have a responsibility to come forward and give this information to us. Don't misunderstand me -- I am not making a demand upon anyone. I make this request in the hopes that some of the other PAMS with whom Michael is in touch might come forward, because I believe their posts may truly help change the course of otherwise lost lives. Your contributions could help heal some of the damage that has been done by M.

This would be a truly selfless act. Please share your experiences with us. You too will be liberated in the end, I am certain.

Marianne

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Date: Tues, Nov 21, 2000 at 16:50:17 (GMT)
From: Tonette
Email: None
To: Marianne
Subject: A question
Message:
Dear Marianne,
Can you identify a turning point, in relation to the PT, where Jim Jones 'lost it'? Jim Jones seems to have facilitated alot of good works and it appears that for a time he was sincere. Not to say that there wasn't something 'off' about him from the start. I don't know whether there was or wasn't. I wonder if there was an identifying event or factor that pushed Jones over the edge. A point at which Jones transformed from Reverand to delusional maniac. I would speculate it was not the murder of the senator and his investigative party because there had already been talk of suicide in Guyana. From what I know, once Jonestown was established his church had already gone too far and Jones had at that time crossed the line.
I do wonder if M lost his love for toys, life and control to what level he would sink to. Do you see the same potential within M to enact something similar? Just curious.
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Date: Tues, Nov 21, 2000 at 17:38:14 (GMT)
From: Marianne
Email: None
To: Tonette
Subject: Jones lost it bec. of Ex-PT members
Message:
Tonette: Great question. Such a great question that I am going to start a thread and talk about this connection. Jones really started to go downhill because of the activities and publicity generated by ex-PT members about how he was really behaving.

Take some antacids down there in Malibu!

Marianne

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Date: Tues, Nov 21, 2000 at 21:50:28 (GMT)
From: Katie
Email: None
To: Marianne
Subject: Jones lost it bec. of Ex-PT members
Message:
Omigod, Marianne! (And I agree, great question by Tonette). Let's just hope that Maharaji feels he had a lot to lose by 'losing it' - aaagh!
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Date: Wed, Nov 22, 2000 at 15:12:08 (GMT)
From: Salam
Email: None
To: Katie
Subject: Better be safe than sorry
Message:
Hope you have insurance Katie.
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Date: Tues, Nov 21, 2000 at 17:56:47 (GMT)
From: Tonette
Email: None
To: Marianne
Subject: Thanks for the answer.
Message:
I hope you do start a thread along this topic. You're a wonderful writer. I do worry though that the tread has the potential to become downright paranoid. Oh well if it does.
Your answer surprised me. I had no idea. Thanks again-Tonette
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Date: Mon, Nov 20, 2000 at 21:51:49 (GMT)
From: Bin Liner
Email: None
To: Marianne
Subject: Hear , Hear nt
Message:
nt
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Date: Mon, Nov 20, 2000 at 09:50:54 (GMT)
From: sam
Email: -
To: Marianne
Subject: thank you, thank you , Marianne. ( NT)
Message:
and thanks again u wonderful thing
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Date: Mon, Nov 20, 2000 at 05:27:19 (GMT)
From: Susan
Email: None
To: Marianne
Subject: another great post Marianne (nt)
Message:
nt
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Date: Mon, Nov 20, 2000 at 02:54:22 (GMT)
From: Salam
Email: None
To: Michael Dettmers
Subject: Question.
Message:
Michael,

Thank you for being an inspiration. You probably noticed the effect of what you are saying on some of the premies. You wrote,


Maharaji’s excessive drinking and his profligate spending as well as his abusive behavior especially when he was drunk led me to the conclusion that he did not care about his life or his work

Commenting on what you say I want to focus in particular on

he did not care about his life or his work

I find this hard to digest and confusing. If a person is an alcoholic and does not care about his work and his life, would not you say that it would show on his person in one way or another? Things like having a half shaven beard, not caring about his appearance or letting his business run down. (I am sure you understand what I am getting at).

OK, I haven’t been close to the fellow, so I don’t know anything about his day to day activity. From what I’ve seen of him, he never conveyed that image. He always looked like he knew what he wanted and where he was going.

How can such a person persist in doing what he did for so long without getting bored or fed up? What is driving him to continue?

I understand that one of the prerequisites to doing a job or working for one’s self is to enjoy it first. If what you saying are true, then what is the answer?

Can greed explain it?

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Date: Tues, Nov 21, 2000 at 02:48:49 (GMT)
From: Michael Dettmers
Email: dettmers@gylanix.com
To: Salam
Subject: Answer
Message:
Salam,

First, let me emphasize that what I said is simply my opinion but here is what I base it on. I have been around many CEO’s of major corporations as well as smaller entrepreneurial ventures. These are people who are passionate about what they do and they put their heart and souls into it. They are constantly traveling, attending meetings, addressing shareholders, dealing with employee and organizational issues all to further their missions. Just take the recent (although still undecided) US Presidential election as a case in point. Serious politicking for the presidency began with the primaries in February culminating with each party nominating its candidate at their conventions in July and August. Then followed exhausting campaigns that had the candidates addressing crowds and town meetings at the rate of 5 or 6 per day, 7 days a week, right up until election day. Why did they do it? They did it because they are serious in their quest to become president and, under our current system, that is what it takes.

Now, I am willing to bet that most premies would say that Maharaji’s mission is far more important to the world than the missions of business people and politicians. Yet, when I compare the work ethic of these people to the Maharaji I served, it is impossible to conclude that he cared about his work. In the end, I concluded that he was just plain lazy. I experienced the same frustration that Bob Mishler faced over this issue. I kept wondering when he was going to roll up his sleeves and get serious about his work. When was he going to get down off the throne and start connecting and relating with the rest of the human race he delusionally thought he was here to save? When was he going to engage with people in real dialogue instead of pontificating from on high? Believe me, I was ready to do my part.

Instead, I spent a good deal of my time organizing the financing and acquisition of his ever growing collection of watches, his fleet of expensive automobiles, his palatial residences, and his helicopter and planes. After a while, I concluded that there was a strong correlation between his failing mission and the fact that he was slightly inebriated, if not out-and-out drunk, five out of seven days of every week for years on end. To me this was the behavior of a man who did not care about his work. Given the exalted status in which he held himself and his obvious inability to live up to that status, I concluded that he did not care about his life. When the dissonance became too great, he numbed the pain with booze and the acquisition of more toys. Is this behavior greed or an addiction or both? I don’t know or care. What ever it is, it is inexcusable in one who claims to offer the key to happiness, and anybody who supports it is a fool. I should know, I was a fool for much too long.

Michael

PS: Susan, Curious George and Cynthia I will address your questions sometime this week.

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Date: Tues, Nov 21, 2000 at 06:14:06 (GMT)
From: Bazza
Email: bshaw8@bellsouth.net
To: Michael Dettmers
Subject: Just an aside
Message:
Michael

Forgive me if I jump in here a second I just wanted to catch your eye and say how much I appreciate your posting here. If you read my initial post above under name of 'a wavering premie' and the letter I emailed to maharaji, you'll see that you were instrumental in giving me the strength to make that leap.

So please keep it up, your efforts are definitly not in vain.

sincerely

Barry Shaw
ps what do you think are chances he'll reply?

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Date: Tues, Nov 21, 2000 at 12:17:24 (GMT)
From: Michael Dettmers
Email: dettmers@gylanix.com
To: Bazza
Subject: Just an aside
Message:
Barry,

Congratulations on your decision. You have absolutely nothing to fear and I am very gratified that I was able to play a part in helping you come to it.

I think the chances of getting a reply to your e-mail from Maharaji are zero. He cannot respond to anyone who sincerely questions him. For him, that would be like opening Pandora's box and he knows it. His non-response is not a dignified silence, however. It is the fear that his whole charade would unravel.

All the best,

Michael

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Date: Wed, Nov 22, 2000 at 00:57:03 (GMT)
From: Salam
Email: None
To: Michael Dettmers
Subject: Thanks for the reply, You're a champion..nt
Message:
nt
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Date: Mon, Nov 20, 2000 at 05:54:16 (GMT)
From: Buzz
Email: None
To: Salam
Subject: Question.
Message:
How can such a person persist in doing what he did for so long without getting bored or fed up? What is driving him to continue?

Good point Salam.

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Date: Mon, Nov 20, 2000 at 05:58:54 (GMT)
From: Marianne
Email: None
To: Buzz
Subject: Answer
Message:
Greed.
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Date: Mon, Nov 20, 2000 at 03:28:04 (GMT)
From: Katie
Email: None
To: Salam
Subject: Question.
Message:
Hi Salam -
I am sure Michael will have more to say about this, but it's been my impression that Maharaji feels that he HAS to do this because he is fufilling his duty to his father. And if he doesn't really want to do it, then even the money would not be enough to satisfy him - thus the drinking and requests for even MORE money, etc.

Of course, I'm sure by now he has realized he couldn't make near as much money doing anything else. But I still think the excessive responsibility that was laid on him when he was a child is a big factor.

Take care -
Katie

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Date: Sun, Nov 19, 2000 at 23:48:39 (GMT)
From: Rick
Email: None
To: Michael Dettmers
Subject: My responses to la-ex
Message:
Thanks for the further information, Michael. The repeated offerings of cigarettes from maharaji is particularly weird.
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Date: Sun, Nov 19, 2000 at 22:09:03 (GMT)
From: Tim G
Email: timgitti@indigo.ie
To: Michael Dettmers
Subject: My responses to la-ex
Message:
Hi Michael thanx for your openness,I think this info is so important even if it were to free only one person. That the man clearly doesn't follow his own prescription is surely a clinching argument especially after the thousands of hours of harangue about the beauty and efficacy of his 'product' ,which by the way is no more his than anyone else's
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Date: Mon, Nov 20, 2000 at 16:24:20 (GMT)
From: Cynthia
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: Questions to Michael
Message:
Hello Michael and everyone,

Marianne, thanks for your post above.

Michael, in your post you mentioned speaking with other X-rated PAMs and their unwillingness to come forward.

Do you know:

1) If they have read the Ex-Premie site? If so, what do they think?

2) Did they give you specific reasons for their unwillingness to speak out about their encounters with Maharaji;

3) Do they understand the impact on so many exes, not just here, but everywhere, that their stories would have; and

4) Why are they afraid, (if they are afraid)?

Thanks again, glad you got off of the smokes--I started smoking after I left the cult!!

Best
Cynthia

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Date: Sun, Nov 19, 2000 at 21:28:43 (GMT)
From: Tim G
Email: timgitti@indigo.ie
To: Everyone
Subject: Calling any ex-premies or waiverers in Eire
Message:
I'd love to chat with any exes in this neck of the woods [damp ones at the moment] and especially any premies who are entertaining doubts...I remember very well the initial difficulties and I also remember very well the great feeling of freedom and return of my own discrimination when I finally let go .There is life after knowledge and there is knowledge by the bucket-load after Rawatism. Greetings all.
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Date: Sun, Nov 19, 2000 at 22:38:35 (GMT)
From: Marianne
Email: MarianneDB@aol.com
To: Tim G
Subject: Merry Eire ex meeting?
Message:
Maybe we'll be able to organize an ex get together in Ireland while I am there next year. Any other takers? How about you Brits? Nigel? Charlie and Lee? Former Latvians?

Tim, there used to be a monthly ex-premie drinking fest at the Latvian Social Welfare Club in London, hosted by John Brauns, who lived there. John is now living in Latvia. Hi John!! Anyway, ex-premie get togethers began being called Latvian night as a result. The last true Latvian night, at the actual Latvian club, was when I was in London in February. Jean Michel came from Paris and gave a complimentary k review. I, however, passed on that rare opportunity.

Maybe we can organize an Eire Latvian night. Hey Gerry, what about you and Patty coming over for the event?

Cheers Tim,
Marianne

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Date: Sun, Nov 19, 2000 at 20:58:50 (GMT)
From: I knew Orzano when he....
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: and I were in junior high together-he did what?
Message:
Is it true that John Orzano was the guy that had an affair with Marolyn?

If so, that's funny, to me at least, because I knew him in junior high....I never would have guessed that he would be messing around in such high places...

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Date: Mon, Nov 20, 2000 at 02:58:15 (GMT)
From: Salam
Email: None
To: I knew Orzano when he....
Subject: Dicks work in a mysterious way
Message:
They have a mind of their own.
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Date: Mon, Nov 20, 2000 at 15:28:20 (GMT)
From: dick
Email: None
To: Salam
Subject: Dicks work in a mysterious way, yes they do
Message:
Daya to Hansi: Your dick feels bigger than Dad's!
Hansi to Daya: Yeah, Mom says so too.

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Date: Mon, Nov 20, 2000 at 20:55:12 (GMT)
From: Gail
Email: None
To: dick
Subject: Are you insinuating incest in the Rawat tribe?
Message:
I gather you think there is incest in the Rawat Family. Do you have proof?
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Date: Sun, Nov 19, 2000 at 20:37:28 (GMT)
From: ebay alert
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: Get your inspiration HERE
Message:
More wisdom than you can poke a stick at available HERE
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Date: Tues, Nov 21, 2000 at 19:35:30 (GMT)
From: Tonette
Email: None
To: ebay alert
Subject: These aren't mine
Message:
Or rather I should say my husband's. We haven't gotten it together yet to list the videos we own.
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Date: Tues, Nov 21, 2000 at 11:06:28 (GMT)
From: janet of venice
Email: None
To: the who;le forum
Subject: ebay alert -we need to buy these for evidence
Message:
tonette offered these up a while back and jean-michel wanted them for our archives. can somebody scrape up 75 bucks to rope these in for our evidence collection?
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Date: Tues, Nov 21, 2000 at 15:05:27 (GMT)
From: Katie
Email: None
To: janet of venice
Subject: ebay alert -we need to buy these for evidence
Message:
Hi Janet -
I might be able to make a side deal with the seller if he doesn't get bids :). (Warning to all premies: these videos will then be in the hands of monmots!)

Check out the link on the auction, btw.

Take care -
Katie

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Date: Tues, Nov 21, 2000 at 03:32:22 (GMT)
From: Katie
Email: None
To: ebay alert
Subject: Too funny :)
Message:
I just realize that I know the seller from THIS forum :). My eBay world (they have some good forums too) is starting to intersect the ex-premie world - aaack!
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Date: Sun, Nov 19, 2000 at 22:28:13 (GMT)
From: jondon
Email: None
To: all
Subject: Here's an idea
Message:
Tim metions in a thread above:

That the man clearly doesn't follow his own prescription is surely a clinching argument especially after the thousands of hours of harangue about the beauty and efficacy of his 'product' ,which by the way is no more his than anyone else's

How about if someone posted
'Maharaji's Knowledge: the simple techniques of knowledge'
on to Ebay.

One could auction them off. Send the winner a copy of how to do it, you know: stick your thumb in your eye, stick your finger in your ear, touch your nose with your tongue and breath whilst thinking about a short greasy fat guy.

I believe one would receive some negative feedback for such a product. But I think you would get some bids for it.

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Date: Tues, Nov 21, 2000 at 19:13:20 (GMT)
From: e-bay-master
Email: None
To: jondon
Subject: Here's an idea?That's not bad, plus this as well..
Message:
Jondon-maybe you're onto something here.

m has said that he wants to put the k-session onto dvd format and the internet as well...

somebody should put the techniques out for sale, and the revenues collected could finance this site, literature and a documentary about m...

everyone would be happy-knowledge is made available, m is not needed, finances secured for further anti-m efforts...

could this be the way to 'spread this knowledge to every land'?

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Date: Tues, Nov 21, 2000 at 23:31:24 (GMT)
From: jondon
Email: None
To: e-bay-master
Subject: Heck, why auction it off,
Message:
Just post it on Ebay for free. In the description send the bidders to this site and to the page describing K. Maybe set it up at .01 Cent and tell them not to bid. Would only cost one .25 cents and you could cover more earth than M could ever cover.
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Date: Wed, Nov 22, 2000 at 04:39:40 (GMT)
From: Bazza
Email: None
To: jondon
Subject: You may be on to something there
Message:
Maybe we could create a few auctions which would be sure to attract any premie ebay regulars - like maybe beragons, old pics of m., darshan kneepads etc, then embed links to this forum or the main site. I did just that with my auction for CDs - link is on post higher up.
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Date: Wed, Nov 22, 2000 at 13:17:44 (GMT)
From: jondon
Email: None
To: Bazza
Subject: nice work...
Message:
now throw in a copy of the Lord of the Universe which contains the secret techniques of knowledge. I could make you a copy and send it to you or I could send it to the winner of the auction. You could get some big bucks for this stuff if EV wants to get there hands on this stuff. Got any shillers?

ps fuck you EV

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Date: Sun, Nov 19, 2000 at 19:37:12 (GMT)
From: la-ex
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: premies:how will you feel about the next master?
Message:
This is a question to premies and exes alike.

It's based on some posts I recently read from about 2 years ago, thanks to the new search engine.

We all know, as m has told us many times, that one day there will be a new master.
The torch gets passed, so to speak.
He has to die, or at least retire, and someone else takes over.

The queston is this:

When this happens, whoever takes over, do you really think that you will worship and adore that person as well?

Will they get your devotion?

Will you attribute mystical powers to that person?

Will you attribute a divine status to that person also?

Will they be a source of happiness to you as well?

Do you think they will always 'be in that place' as you have believed m to be?

Do you think they will practice every day?

Would it bother you if they were an alcoholic?

Will you believe that they are the next perfect master, and incarnation of god?

AND, who would be the best person for the job?

Seriously, would it be charanand, padarthanand, daya, hansi,david smith, marolyn.....?

Who would be your best bet, and would you then attribute all of these divine attributes and beatuiful experiences to them?

Would you follow them all over the world, and put pictures of them in your house (or car)?

When you look at it this way, I think a lot of the mysticism comes out of the whole thing....

Seriously, who would it be, if you could have your first choice...?

And, how would it affect you?

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Date: Wed, Nov 22, 2000 at 08:06:32 (GMT)
From: Steve Quint
Email: the_avenger55@hotmail.com
To: la-ex
Subject: premies:how will you feel about the next master?
Message:
Two more ways of looking at this issue:

Seriously

Not So Seriously

Steve

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Date: Mon, Nov 20, 2000 at 18:07:01 (GMT)
From: Nigel
Email: None
To: la-ex
Subject: Yes - and what about if there were NO successor?
Message:
Good questions, la-ex.

One thing we all now understand, however, is that Prem has no advanced knowledge of his own passing. Has he left a 'spiritual' will? I doubt it, somehow.

If he, like his father, slipped on a bar of soap in the shower, leaving no named successor, it would be very interesting to watch the rival claims for the guruship shape up.

My question to premies is not 'who would you follow?' but upon what criteria would you make your decision..?

SHP? Mili? Bimbo? Anyone?

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Date: Tues, Nov 21, 2000 at 04:57:24 (GMT)
From: a0aji
Email: None
To: Nigel
Subject: Nine of Lilas, Six of Gopies, and two Holy Ghosts
Message:
A lot of fortunes are won and lost in card games.
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Date: Tues, Nov 21, 2000 at 00:28:02 (GMT)
From: Steve Quint
Email: the_avenger55@hotmail.com
To: Nigel
Subject: Yes - and what about if there were NO successor?
Message:
My question to premies is not 'who would you follow?' but upon what criteria would you make your decision..?

Could he show me a good time? And undo the damage caused by the fearful leader, the artist formerly known as m.

Steve

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Date: Mon, Nov 20, 2000 at 00:42:28 (GMT)
From: Bin Liner
Email: None
To: la-ex
Subject: First choice
Message:
Should be me.

It would affect me very nicely , thank you.

I'd cancel the new set of $40m wings & retire pronto.

I'd require all premies to chill out & start smoking dope , with a special dispensation for all those who already do so , etc. freedom for all , love & peace etc.

Seriously though , what happens to the dough when he hands in his lunch pail?

No doubt tweedie & friends are working on that one.

Who are his attorney's friends/associates anyway?

As for the true seekers , they won't bother with succession
bullshit , they'll just go to India knowing this time that young , fat & with an ambitious mum is out.

In is old , thin , naked & a bone through its nose.

What I've written is so cynical.

How did it come to this , to be betrayed .

He's got to be knocked off his perch before he falls off.

RAWAT DONT DIE BEFORE YOU'VE FUCKED OFF.


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Date: Sun, Nov 19, 2000 at 23:05:41 (GMT)
From: Steve Quint
Email: the_avenger55@hotmail.com
To: la-ex
Subject: premies:how will you feel about the next master?
Message:
When this happens, whoever takes over, do you really think that you will worship and adore that person as well?

I think respect is appropriate. The rest, including respect, should come naturally.

Will they get your devotion?

Shitty word. What does it mean? If it's real, it's also something that comes naturally, not drummed into someone's head. I still think respect is the baseline. Respect for me is like open-mindedness. Without either of them one is closing a lot of doors. Unfortunately we've been burnt by respect and open-mindedness towards a certain less-than-perfect person. We've got to get over it and I hope that this forum can help.

Will you attribute mystical powers to that person?

I think that given all that we've been through, one should be very wary of 'mystical' powers. A lot of getting down to earth is what's needed in my humble opinion.

Will you attribute a divine status to that person also?

My dictionary shows 'divine' to mean basically Godlike or lovely. I think that Godlikeness is in the 'beware of' category like 'mystical'. Loveliness is in the eyes of the beholder.

Will they be a source of happiness to you as well?

Hopefully. I've had enough aggravation, sadness, disappointment from m to last at least 1,600 lifetimes.

Do you think they will always 'be in that place' as you have believed m to be?

There's so much obscurity and b.s. around this that I don't even want to touch it.

Do you think they will practice every day?

I've talked about 'practicing' in two messages under the thread 'Baby/bathwater' of Nov. 16, 2000. I think that in all things in life, quality is more important than quantity.

Would it bother you if they were an alcoholic?

Yes, but you have to be careful about the word alcoholic. It means being addicted to or dependent on the substance. Ideally, a person should control what they consume, the consumed item should not control them.

Will you believe that they are the next perfect master, and incarnation of god?

Again, it is in the eyes of the beholder. We've been fed so much garbage and abused English from Hindustan that those words are best forgotten, in my opinion.

AND, who would be the best person for the job?

The word job is inappropriate in this context. I think that the question is therefore irrelevant.

Seriously, would it be charanand, padarthanand, daya, hansi,david smith, marolyn.....?

In my humble opinion, you've got to be joking! Anybody with close association to m is pretty much automatically ruled out for much respect from me.

Who would be your best bet, and would you then attribute all of these divine attributes and beatuiful experiences to them?

I think these things will evolve naturally. Once again, leadership should be chosen, not forced.

Would you follow them all over the world, and put pictures of them in your house (or car)?

Personal choice at the time. Peer pressure sucks.

When you look at it this way, I think a lot of the mysticism comes out of the whole thing....

Good statement. The word 'mysticism' sucks, in my humble opinion.

Seriously, who would it be, if you could have your first choice...?

I would prefer to sit this question out.

And, how would it affect you?

I would be thrilled if m was replaced by someone with half a brain, let alone someone 'perfect'.

Thanks for the questions,

Steve

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Date: Sun, Nov 19, 2000 at 20:23:59 (GMT)
From: ulf
Email: None
To: la-ex
Subject: premies:how will you feel about the next master?
Message:
Hi la- ex.

I remenber that when Hansi was born,we (the premies )was told
that he wouldt be the next perfect master
someone i knew hwo had been togheter with m and Marolyn just after Hansi's birth, said that a person asked : hwo is he?(Hansi)
and m smiled and told people that someday: we will all now.
She said that it was clear for her that m was telling that the next master was Hansi.

Ulf

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Date: Sun, Nov 19, 2000 at 20:12:19 (GMT)
From: JTF
Email: None
To: la-ex
Subject: interesting hypothetical LA-ex but.......
Message:
it's important to keep in mind that the vast majority of the existing western cult members are rawat's age and older.

Statistically speaking, most of the cult members will die before rawat.

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Date: Sun, Nov 19, 2000 at 19:56:38 (GMT)
From: hal
Email: None
To: la-ex
Subject: premies:how will you feel about the next master?
Message:
Hi,

That's a most interesting set of questions. It's strange you should mention the replacement master because just before I found ex premie forum and left I had a dream about this.

In my dream I went to the residence to see M and was told that he had died and there was a new master.

The new master I was told was named Bill and he was a regular premie who had been drawn from a ballot of names taken from the practicing premies. I was informed that anyone who practiced and was clear about the techniques could be the master.

I was so disappointed when introduced to this guy Bill because he was a rather serious looking regular kind of guy.

I remember thinking in the dream that HE SURE DIDN'T HAVE THE MYSTERY AND CHARISMA OF AN INDIAN GURU.

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Date: Mon, Nov 20, 2000 at 00:39:06 (GMT)
From: la-ex
Email: None
To: hal
Subject: the next master? Now here's a question for you...
Message:
OK, here's another question, sort of a followup to the first question about the next master....

M has 'quit' at least once, only to reclaim the throne...

But one day he'll have to give it up permanently. According to the maharaji philosophy, a new master will arise....

Let's assume that he is still alive...he just gets burned out, or sick, or too old or whatever...he decides to pass it along...

Now, will m become a premie like the rest of them?
Will he sit in the PAM section at the festivals?
Will the new master yell at him about practicing every day?
Will he listen to the new masters satsang and get inspired?
Will he do service or 'participate' with the new master?
Will he ever 'bitch' about the master?
Will he dance with the new master at programs?
Will he get special service to do, or will he be just another premie?
Will he practice?

I'm just curious....when I think about it, I don't think his ego could bear any part of this...I think he'll have to die before anyone else will take over....

Any comments?

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Date: Mon, Nov 20, 2000 at 20:44:20 (GMT)
From: Cynthia
Email: None
To: la-ex
Subject: The next master?
Message:
Jeezum Crow!

The next master? If I were to make a hunch, it would be Wadi Sue. She's the only one of his children who has K (that I know of), and she's working at Visions or EV or one of the corporations.

She drives a Mercedes--she's an adult and has grown up in wealth. Her father has groomed her well. Her mother has groomed her well.

M said in a video or satellite feed I saw over a year ago that when he gave k to Wadi, he felt the same as when Shri M gave K to him. Hmmmm....interesting I thought.

As far as inheritances ($$$) are concerned...I'm sure they have all that wrapped up for the family. Maybe Michael knows.

Anyway, Hansi hasn't been mentioned in quite some time. I have another hunch he's a problem child. Maybe he doesn't worship his father in the appropriate way according to the Master's expectations. (only my speculations).

I vote Wadie Sue for next PM. And if M slips on a bar of soap, maybe the whole cult will slide right out of existence with him.

IMO,
Love,
Cynthia

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Date: Mon, Nov 20, 2000 at 21:23:27 (GMT)
From: a0aji
Email: None
To: Cynthia
Subject: The next master?
Message:
Yeah, but not without getting a jar of peanut butter up his ass, first.
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Date: Mon, Nov 20, 2000 at 23:12:52 (GMT)
From: Cynthia
Email: None
To: a0aji
Subject: You're a sick puppy, a0aji....
Message:
Hey, I liked seeing that picture of you.

You haven't changed a bit.....(hehehehe)

No, really, I was glad that I was remembering the right face, and there you were, looking happier than when you were a premie.

Where do you find those websites???? Silly man.

Love,
Cynthia

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Date: Tues, Nov 21, 2000 at 04:49:49 (GMT)
From: a0aji
Email: None
To: Cynthia
Subject: You're a sick puppy, a0aji....
Message:
I just think it's funny that he came up with that story about washing the dog and 'falling' onto an inverted peanut butter jar! They must have been laughing their asses off in the ER that night.

Glad you liked the photo, Cynthia.

Thanks for the love,

Chris

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Date: Tues, Nov 21, 2000 at 01:10:36 (GMT)
From: la-ex
Email: None
To: everyone
Subject: Next question-how would m choose?
Message:
Here's another question:

If m decided to choose the next master, and wanted to 'audition' candidates, much the same way they cast actors in hollywood, how would he choose?

Imagine m sitting in a director's chair, looking up at a stage with a chair or podium on it...

What's he thinking as he surveys the possible candidates?
What does he think are important qualities for the next master to display?
How would he critique them?

Any ideas?

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Date: Sun, Nov 19, 2000 at 17:30:08 (GMT)
From: Sir Dave
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: If you don't have a life
Message:
and didn't take premies' advice here and get one, have a look at the Forum archives search engine and bring back a few classic posts.

Remember 'True Primie'? Just type primie in the search engine and get his classic posts before your eyes.

Everything that has ever been posted is there in the search engine. Well nearly. All of Forums 1, 2, 3 and much of Forum 4.

I reckon it will be up-to-date by the New Year.

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Date: Sun, Nov 19, 2000 at 18:26:45 (GMT)
From: Salam
Email: None
To: Sir Dave
Subject: Where is the search engine?
Message:
Looks like you're engine has not got an oil. Is it supposed to be on the link?

Also why does the web page load so slowly. Is your isp using a 486 machine as a server?

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Date: Sun, Nov 19, 2000 at 23:33:14 (GMT)
From: Sir Dave
Email: None
To: Salam
Subject: Where is the search engine?
Message:
You need to have Javascript enabled to use the search engine. The page doesn't take long to load on my computer. Sometimes, Geocities can be a bit slow though.
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Date: Sun, Nov 19, 2000 at 16:26:27 (GMT)
From: AJW
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: What's the difference...
Message:
...between a sycophant and a devotee?

A sycophant is a flattering toady.

Isn't a devotee exactly the same?

In fact- isn't a devotee the ultimate sycophant?

Maybe there's a premie out there who can explain the difference. It looks like two names for the same thing from here.

Anth the sick elephant

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Date: Mon, Nov 20, 2000 at 16:03:35 (GMT)
From: What's the difference
Email: None
To: AJW
Subject: between Marolyn Rawat and a hockey player?
Message:
A hockey player takes a shower after three periods.
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Date: Sun, Nov 19, 2000 at 19:55:19 (GMT)
From: Lotus Eater
Email: None
To: AJW
Subject: Lots of difference...
Message:
The game maybe the same, the dynamics of the relationship the same, but a sycophant is self confessed and will wriggle on the ground before your feet with a bit of intimidation.

A devotee is your devotee through belief in a lie you have told them, Really I would love to hear somebody bit his toe!

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Date: Sun, Nov 19, 2000 at 10:14:27 (GMT)
From: Salam
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: to : Kjarne
Message:
I did not want to enter the thread below with JMK regarding the argument on the book that you mention.

What interested me is that you appear to be critical of maharaji. Am I right? I have not seen you posting for a while, so could you sort of update me (if you wish) as to how your relation regarding fatso been.

Salam

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Date: Sun, Nov 19, 2000 at 12:39:08 (GMT)
From: Kjarne
Email: None
To: Salam
Subject: to : Kjarne
Message:
I have beeen reading this forum once in a while and have also read the post from Michael Dettmers and yes I have started to get some doubts.

I have never myself been around Maharaji and never spoke to him.So when people like Michael Dettmers and Jean-Michel speaks, I take them seriosly. I remember M. Dettmers from the old days and I have great respect for Jean_Michel who have been an instructor and can that he has done a lot of work with his web-sites .
I have also read the Avait Mat book and some websites about the radhasoumi stuff and I can see the simularities with knowledge.

So at the moment I don`t know. I think I am a bit confused.

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Date: Sun, Nov 19, 2000 at 14:40:10 (GMT)
From: Jean-Michel
Email: None
To: Kjarne
Subject: Confusion and doubts are great !!
Message:
Great !! I got a confused a lot discovering all that stuff too !!

But then, I had to somehow chose: keep blindly to believe in what m said and says, or accept to view the whole scene from another angle .... Why should I keep believing in what he says ? Because he's all knowing ? Because I shouldn't have any doubts ?

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Date: Sun, Nov 19, 2000 at 16:16:12 (GMT)
From: Salam
Email: None
To: Jean-Michel
Subject: Confusion and doubts are great !!
Message:
Kjarne

I left Buddha’s belly botton (or is it bottom, Stoner?) a long time ago, so I can’t really remember all the emotions and doughts that were involved.

What is confusing you? Is it the same revelation that shp has had? That is to say m's drinking and personal problems and the understanding that he is no more than an ordinary human being that has perfected a method to abuse others so that he can achive his personal goals.

I am reviewing my stance with shp at present because it appears that there is a real issue in having to cope with the changes of long time implicit acceptance and dedication to a person that has been elevated to the status of god then finding out that all was a mirage and the castle was built on sandy soil and it is starting to sink.

I would like to know (again if you want to do so) what goes on in your head when you think of m, and how are you handling it? Are you pushing the issue to one side of your head because it is too much to handle? Do you have an idea of what the outcome will be in relation to m and k? What would you advice or say to premies if you were asked to comment on m?

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Date: Sun, Nov 19, 2000 at 09:37:53 (GMT)
From: JohnT
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: Premies! Try your luck at this ...
Message:
Ex-Tex posted a news item recently. I've edited out some highlights for you. Can you tell if it is about Rawat, or some other false God? (answer below)

>>>>>

Among his devotees, ??? is believed to be an avatar: literally, an incarnation of the divine, one of a rare body of divine beings - such as Krishna or Christ - who, it is said, take human form to further man's spiritual evolution.

DB became a devotee... drawn by an interest in the guru's reputation... 'I couldn't see him as a God,' says DB, 'but I did think, this could be a great holy man who has certain gifts.'

But the closer he came to ???, DB told me, the more his doubts multiplied. From other devotees, however, the response has been one of disbelief and denial. '???', says DB, 'is... on an ego trip, after money, after power. He is a sheer conman.'

'No', say others, '??? is God.'

JH told me that he and his wife had been devotees for 25 years. He said he was deeply shocked at the allegations and could not begin to understand them. 'All I know in my heart is that ??? is the purest of the purest, and that everything he does is for the highest good of everybody. If other people feel something else, that's how they feel. It's a mystery to me, and that's how I'm leaving it. I just know in my heart what I've found.'

This denial - ??? is God, God doesn't do these things - was a theme that was echoed by innumerable other devotees ... (who are urged) to believe only their own experiences and (to heed the) aphorism...: 'When doubt walks in the front door, faith walks out out the back door. Keep your doors closed.'

(Anonymous devotees) state '??? is a divine incarnation, one cannot attribute human... motives to him, nor interpret him in the light of human... experience.' In other words, because ??? is divine, whatever he does is beyond understanding and beyond accountability.

'Devotion,' said (one devotee), 'doesn't need any justification. In my philosophy of life, everything good and everything bad belongs to God. That is my belief, and that is why whatever he does, does not affect me in that way.' Was he saying that he still believed ??? is God? 'Yes... For me, the only meaningful relationship with him is the personal one...'

(But now, says an Ex), he could see how he had ignored all the contradictions, manufactured explanations for anything that didn't fit. '... I just thought, he's testing me to see if I'm focused on the love or on the external. Because ??? says, love my uncertainty. You'll never be able to understand the avatar.'

Whether he is divine, 'a demented demonic force', as (a one-time devotee) now describes him, or simply the most accomplished... confidence trickster, ??? has said nothing publicly about the allegations laid against him.

<<<<<

Premies, was this about YOUR Master? You can't tell? Don't worry, you are not alone! Here's the answer.

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Date: Mon, Nov 20, 2000 at 08:37:15 (GMT)
From: ExTex
Email: None
To: JohnT
Subject: Ho Ho Ho Well Done, John T (nt)
Message:
nt
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