Forum V: Archive
Compiled: Sat, Dec 16, 2000 at 21:05:25 (GMT)
From: Nov 23, 2000 To: Dec 14, 2000 Page: 3 Of: 5


Aussi Ji -:- Can you quote me? -:- Fri, Dec 08, 2000 at 07:12:09 (GMT)
__ Oliver -:- Can you quote me? -:- Fri, Dec 08, 2000 at 12:17:09 (GMT)
__ __ Aussi Ji -:- Can you quote me? -:- Fri, Dec 08, 2000 at 22:08:59 (GMT)

Scott T. -:- A Prediction -:- Fri, Dec 08, 2000 at 06:52:38 (GMT)
__ Scott T. -:- Well, now I'm stumped. -:- Sat, Dec 09, 2000 at 20:57:39 (GMT)
__ JTF -:- A Prediction/good call-now it's interesting(nt) -:- Fri, Dec 08, 2000 at 21:48:23 (GMT)
__ __ Scott T. -:- A Prediction/good call-now it's interesting(nt) -:- Fri, Dec 08, 2000 at 22:08:20 (GMT)
__ Joe -:- A Prediction -:- Fri, Dec 08, 2000 at 17:12:30 (GMT)
__ __ Scott T. -:- Question about FSC ruling -:- Fri, Dec 08, 2000 at 21:15:40 (GMT)
__ __ __ Joe -:- Question about FSC ruling -:- Fri, Dec 08, 2000 at 22:20:37 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Scott T. -:- Safe harbors -:- Fri, Dec 08, 2000 at 23:27:31 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Joe -:- Safe harbors -:- Fri, Dec 08, 2000 at 23:49:47 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Scott T. -:- Dead and dying lines. -:- Sat, Dec 09, 2000 at 01:42:51 (GMT)
__ __ Scott T. -:- A Prediction -:- Fri, Dec 08, 2000 at 20:43:17 (GMT)
__ bill -:- A Prediction -:- Fri, Dec 08, 2000 at 12:48:20 (GMT)
__ __ Jerry -:- A Prediction -:- Fri, Dec 08, 2000 at 19:06:12 (GMT)
__ __ __ Joe -:- A Prediction -:- Fri, Dec 08, 2000 at 19:45:38 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Jerry -:- A Prediction -:- Sat, Dec 09, 2000 at 15:09:21 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Scott T. -:- A Prediction -:- Sat, Dec 09, 2000 at 16:19:41 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ bill -:- A Prediction -:- Sat, Dec 09, 2000 at 05:28:53 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Scott T. -:- Gore and undervote -:- Sat, Dec 09, 2000 at 15:24:38 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ bill -:- Gore fibs -:- Sun, Dec 10, 2000 at 02:24:38 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Scott T. -:- Gore fibs -:- Sun, Dec 10, 2000 at 04:30:28 (GMT)
__ __ Scott T. -:- A Prediction -:- Fri, Dec 08, 2000 at 14:38:49 (GMT)
__ __ __ bill -:- A Prediction -:- Sat, Dec 09, 2000 at 00:22:45 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Scott T. -:- A Prediction -:- Sat, Dec 09, 2000 at 02:02:12 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ bill -:- Oliver Ellsworth -:- Sat, Dec 09, 2000 at 04:57:23 (GMT)
__ __ __ Marianne -:- Bush won't be 'fun' for me -:- Fri, Dec 08, 2000 at 18:28:19 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ cq -:- The 'Texecutioner' Bush won't be 'fun' at all -:- Sat, Dec 09, 2000 at 18:42:33 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ cq -:- ... at least not for these people: -:- Sat, Dec 09, 2000 at 19:34:42 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Scott T. -:- Bush won't be 'fun' for me -:- Fri, Dec 08, 2000 at 20:48:52 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Joe -:- Think Clinton will Pardon Leonard Pelltier? -:- Fri, Dec 08, 2000 at 19:06:57 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ gerry -:- Joe, did you read 'In the Spirit of Crazy Horse' -:- Fri, Dec 08, 2000 at 19:28:15 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Joe -:- Joe, did you read 'In the Spirit of Crazy Horse' -:- Fri, Dec 08, 2000 at 21:57:26 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Marianne -:- About Peltier -:- Fri, Dec 08, 2000 at 20:23:39 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Joe -:- Are you sure? -:- Fri, Dec 08, 2000 at 21:55:29 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ bill -:- Are you sure? -:- Sat, Dec 09, 2000 at 00:32:12 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Scott T. -:- Are you sure? -:- Sat, Dec 09, 2000 at 02:05:39 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ bill -:- Are you sure? -:- Sat, Dec 09, 2000 at 05:20:43 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Scott T. -:- Are you sure? -:- Sat, Dec 09, 2000 at 15:31:27 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Scott T. -:- Are you sure? -:- Sat, Dec 09, 2000 at 15:33:44 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Marianne -:- Judi Bari -:- Sat, Dec 09, 2000 at 05:35:43 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Scott T. -:- Judi Bari -:- Sat, Dec 09, 2000 at 16:24:30 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ bill -:- Marianne I thought you would know. -:- Sun, Dec 10, 2000 at 14:43:08 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Joe -:- It was Judi Bari who was bombed. -:- Tues, Dec 12, 2000 at 23:09:52 (GMT)

Paul Bunyeon -:- just wanted to tell ya -:- Fri, Dec 08, 2000 at 05:14:32 (GMT)
__ Deputy Dog -:- just wanted to tell ya -:- Sat, Dec 09, 2000 at 05:15:37 (GMT)
__ __ Stonor -:- just wanted to tell ya DD -:- Mon, Dec 11, 2000 at 07:39:57 (GMT)
__ __ Stonor -:- I saw Bowie's 'Diamond Dog' show ... -:- Sat, Dec 09, 2000 at 05:30:06 (GMT)
__ __ __ Deputy Dog -:- I saw Bowie's 'Diamond Dog' show ... -:- Sat, Dec 09, 2000 at 06:07:24 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Stonor -:- I saw Bowie's 'Diamond Dog' show ... -:- Sat, Dec 09, 2000 at 16:45:36 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Deputy Dog -:- Stonor -:- Tues, Dec 12, 2000 at 14:43:48 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Stonor -:- Deputy Dog -:- Wed, Dec 13, 2000 at 01:32:02 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Salam -:- I saw Bowie's 'Diamond Dog' show ... -:- Sun, Dec 10, 2000 at 02:15:41 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Stonor -:- Your demand demand has been fulfilled, my ex-guru. -:- Sun, Dec 10, 2000 at 02:27:53 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ AJW -:- Monickers -:- Sat, Dec 09, 2000 at 08:34:23 (GMT)
__ Daneane -:- Everybody sucks...the problem is... -:- Sat, Dec 09, 2000 at 00:12:27 (GMT)
__ cq -:- Hey, hypocrite, you bitchin' about us again? (nt) -:- Fri, Dec 08, 2000 at 18:32:25 (GMT)
__ Pauline Premie -:- Yes ex-premies are all bitches..... -:- Fri, Dec 08, 2000 at 17:22:31 (GMT)
__ AJW -:- Yeah Paul -:- Fri, Dec 08, 2000 at 08:43:13 (GMT)
__ TD -:- Hey is that a rap song from a new Visions CD? -:- Fri, Dec 08, 2000 at 05:24:14 (GMT)
__ __ Tonette -:- OMG that's funny! nt -:- Fri, Dec 08, 2000 at 08:27:48 (GMT)

Bazza -:- Hey Bob Dole's with us! -:- Fri, Dec 08, 2000 at 04:27:03 (GMT)
__ Scott T. -:- Hey Bob Dole's with us! -:- Fri, Dec 08, 2000 at 16:24:40 (GMT)

TiM -:- gerry - What yogic powers? -:- Fri, Dec 08, 2000 at 02:31:29 (GMT)
__ Sir Dave -:- Rawat's waning mystical powers -:- Fri, Dec 08, 2000 at 21:16:05 (GMT)
__ AJW -:- Earth calling TiM -:- Fri, Dec 08, 2000 at 13:41:25 (GMT)
__ GErry -:- gerry - What yogic powers? -:- Fri, Dec 08, 2000 at 02:53:26 (GMT)
__ __ RobertB -:- Nice post Gerry and some good advice -:- Fri, Dec 08, 2000 at 18:57:43 (GMT)
__ __ __ suchabananer -:- TiM: no violence; and yes, it's ok to seek help-nt -:- Sat, Dec 09, 2000 at 19:50:16 (GMT)

TiM -:- Your reply to Pio In Pio -:- Fri, Dec 08, 2000 at 02:05:24 (GMT)
__ gerry -:- We still love you -:- Fri, Dec 08, 2000 at 02:10:31 (GMT)
__ Nick Danger, Third Eye -:- If Anyone Would Know about -:- Fri, Dec 08, 2000 at 02:09:50 (GMT)

TD -:- An interesting take on the US election stuffup(OT) -:- Fri, Dec 08, 2000 at 01:37:19 (GMT)
__ Helen -:- An interesting take on the US election stuffup(OT) -:- Tues, Dec 12, 2000 at 03:30:25 (GMT)
__ __ Stonor -:- Thanks TD ... -:- Tues, Dec 12, 2000 at 06:04:01 (GMT)
__ Rick -:- That's a good one, TD (nt) -:- Fri, Dec 08, 2000 at 02:25:28 (GMT)

TiM -:- Padre Pio In Prison -:- Fri, Dec 08, 2000 at 01:30:36 (GMT)
__ gerry aka dead asshole -:- Padre Pio was a religious monastic -:- Fri, Dec 08, 2000 at 01:41:20 (GMT)
__ Sir Dave -:- Padre Pio In Prison -:- Fri, Dec 08, 2000 at 01:40:34 (GMT)

TiM -:- Alternate Univers MaharajJi dumber than Rawat -:- Fri, Dec 08, 2000 at 00:39:10 (GMT)
__ Bin Liner -:- Alternate Univers MaharajJi dumber than Rawat -:- Fri, Dec 08, 2000 at 01:37:15 (GMT)
__ gerry -:- You're wrong about Padre Pio, -:- Fri, Dec 08, 2000 at 01:09:24 (GMT)
__ Sir Dave -:- Alternate Univers MaharajJi dumber than Rawat -:- Fri, Dec 08, 2000 at 00:56:55 (GMT)

brian -:- perimeter of chaos -:- Thurs, Dec 07, 2000 at 23:26:58 (GMT)
__ Cynthia -:- perimeter of chaos...Choice -:- Sat, Dec 09, 2000 at 04:33:29 (GMT)
__ __ brian -:- perimeter of chaos...Choice -:- Sat, Dec 09, 2000 at 09:13:06 (GMT)
__ __ __ cq -:- you forgive him because you bought his con? -:- Sat, Dec 09, 2000 at 18:57:35 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ brian too -:- you forgive him because you bought his con? -:- Mon, Dec 11, 2000 at 22:49:37 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ cq -:- I see. But what you call 'forgiveness' sounds more -:- Tues, Dec 12, 2000 at 18:53:34 (GMT)
__ Bobby -:- discovered on a search for the meaning of..... -:- Fri, Dec 08, 2000 at 19:31:55 (GMT)
__ __ Way -:- on magical thinking and Emily -:- Fri, Dec 08, 2000 at 20:52:29 (GMT)
__ __ __ Bobby -:- on magical thinking and Emily -:- Sat, Dec 09, 2000 at 12:33:19 (GMT)
__ Way -:- perimeter of chaos -:- Fri, Dec 08, 2000 at 16:17:59 (GMT)
__ __ brian -:- perimeter of chaos -:- Fri, Dec 08, 2000 at 19:43:13 (GMT)
__ __ __ way -:- sorry, brian -:- Fri, Dec 08, 2000 at 20:27:31 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ brian -:- sorry, brian -:- Sun, Dec 10, 2000 at 05:27:52 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ gerry -:- groovy, now how about responding to suchabanana -:- Mon, Dec 11, 2000 at 05:33:59 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ brian -:- groovy, now how about responding to suchabanana -:- Mon, Dec 11, 2000 at 09:02:37 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ cq -:- ... and how about responding to me? -:- Mon, Dec 11, 2000 at 20:23:14 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Steve Quint -:- Barf Bag Alert -:- Mon, Dec 11, 2000 at 20:41:05 (GMT)
__ Bobby -:- chaos mandala -:- Fri, Dec 08, 2000 at 14:30:07 (GMT)
__ suchabanana -:- If the way is within, M's irrelevant for the wise! -:- Fri, Dec 08, 2000 at 05:15:09 (GMT)
__ __ cq -:- ***BEST OF*** (we still have a best of, J-M?) (nt) -:- Sat, Dec 09, 2000 at 19:20:32 (GMT)
__ __ JTF -:- meditation habits of rawat cult members -:- Sat, Dec 09, 2000 at 10:08:58 (GMT)
__ __ brian -:- If the way is within, M's irrelevant for the wise! -:- Sat, Dec 09, 2000 at 08:10:34 (GMT)
__ __ __ gerry -:- You call that an answer ??? -:- Mon, Dec 11, 2000 at 16:16:14 (GMT)
__ __ Bin Liner -:- I keep coming here Such.... -:- Fri, Dec 08, 2000 at 23:43:19 (GMT)
__ __ Robyn -:- If the way is within, M's irrelevant for the wise! -:- Fri, Dec 08, 2000 at 22:21:40 (GMT)
__ __ Hal -:- Great post Such- thanks nt -:- Fri, Dec 08, 2000 at 18:16:05 (GMT)
__ __ gerry -:- Powerful, insightful, truthful, such, thanks(nt) -:- Fri, Dec 08, 2000 at 15:24:39 (GMT)
__ hamzen -:- What can one say,but bully for you? -:- Fri, Dec 08, 2000 at 02:50:20 (GMT)
__ TiM -:- perimeter of chaos -:- Thurs, Dec 07, 2000 at 23:42:53 (GMT)
__ __ gerry -:- Rodhami? FA take note -:- Thurs, Dec 07, 2000 at 23:57:07 (GMT)
__ __ __ Marianne -:- FA: threats in this thread, please delete-nt -:- Fri, Dec 08, 2000 at 00:10:41 (GMT)

gerry -:- Oh Jim, look what you are missing... -:- Thurs, Dec 07, 2000 at 19:23:07 (GMT)
__ Deputy Dog -:- Ok, so I like Jim. -:- Sat, Dec 09, 2000 at 03:35:19 (GMT)
__ Bazza -:- JSCA...where do I plug this in? -:- Fri, Dec 08, 2000 at 03:55:27 (GMT)
__ __ Steve M -:- Thanks for a great post Bazza nt -:- Fri, Dec 08, 2000 at 12:15:16 (GMT)
__ hamzen -:- It's hard to believe sometimes isn't it, -:- Fri, Dec 08, 2000 at 03:06:54 (GMT)
__ Deputy Dog -:- Jim is too cowardly to ever post here again -:- Fri, Dec 08, 2000 at 01:48:29 (GMT)
__ __ hamzen -:- Yopu truly are a sad fucker -:- Fri, Dec 08, 2000 at 02:55:33 (GMT)
__ __ __ Deputy Dog -:- What? I'm not I follow you hamzen -:- Fri, Dec 08, 2000 at 03:06:35 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Deputy Dog -:- Sorry! Should read . . -:- Fri, Dec 08, 2000 at 03:12:00 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ hamzen -:- That's complete bollox -:- Fri, Dec 08, 2000 at 03:31:03 (GMT)
__ __ gerry -:- You're too cowardly to give your name -:- Fri, Dec 08, 2000 at 01:55:14 (GMT)
__ __ __ Deputy Dog -:- Not cowardly just prudent! -:- Fri, Dec 08, 2000 at 02:08:28 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ hamzen -:- Could you put me straight -:- Fri, Dec 08, 2000 at 02:58:01 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Cynthia -:- Truly Tasteless and....Funny....(nt) -:- Fri, Dec 08, 2000 at 04:30:01 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Deputy Dog -:- Could you put me straight -:- Fri, Dec 08, 2000 at 03:03:08 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ hamzen -:- So what's the big deal then?? (nt) -:- Fri, Dec 08, 2000 at 03:08:46 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Deputy Dog -:- So what's the big deal then? Exactly! (nt) -:- Fri, Dec 08, 2000 at 03:13:30 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ hamzen -:- But if it's no big deal, -:- Fri, Dec 08, 2000 at 03:38:00 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Deputy dog -:- But if it's no big deal, -:- Fri, Dec 08, 2000 at 04:07:23 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ gerry -:- It doesn't look that way to me -:- Fri, Dec 08, 2000 at 02:17:19 (GMT)
__ Steve Quint -:- Enlightenment - Or Lightening The Brain -:- Thurs, Dec 07, 2000 at 21:52:47 (GMT)
__ suchabanana -:- it's a female sexual repression/m. fantasy thing -:- Thurs, Dec 07, 2000 at 20:24:49 (GMT)
__ __ Cynthia -:- To suchabanana, you nailed it right on the head... -:- Fri, Dec 08, 2000 at 04:21:19 (GMT)
__ __ __ suchabanana -:- To suchabanana, you nailed it right on the head... -:- Fri, Dec 08, 2000 at 05:36:57 (GMT)
__ __ cq -:- why just female? -:- Thurs, Dec 07, 2000 at 21:12:02 (GMT)
__ __ __ suchabanana -:- Could be gay or sado-masochistic overtones,too. ok -:- Fri, Dec 08, 2000 at 02:49:25 (GMT)
__ Gregg -:- Lovesick premies... -:- Thurs, Dec 07, 2000 at 20:04:27 (GMT)
__ gerry -:- The amazing, amazing Mr Breath -:- Thurs, Dec 07, 2000 at 19:45:21 (GMT)
__ __ Deputy dog -:- John 4: 24 -:- Sat, Dec 09, 2000 at 14:32:08 (GMT)
__ __ __ Hal -:- John 4: 24 -:- Sat, Dec 09, 2000 at 16:22:26 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Deputy Dog -:- John 4: 24 -:- Sat, Dec 09, 2000 at 17:59:42 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Hal -:- Thanks Dep -:- Sat, Dec 09, 2000 at 18:24:40 (GMT)
__ __ AJW -:- The amazing, amazing Mr Breath -:- Fri, Dec 08, 2000 at 13:46:00 (GMT)
__ __ __ Steve Quint -:- The amazing, amazing Mr Breath -:- Fri, Dec 08, 2000 at 15:17:57 (GMT)
__ __ Mr Hanky -:- Don't forget about me! -:- Thurs, Dec 07, 2000 at 21:19:07 (GMT)
__ Marianne -:- Retch, retch -:- Thurs, Dec 07, 2000 at 19:41:02 (GMT)
__ __ Jean-Michel -:- Marianne ? -:- Fri, Dec 08, 2000 at 09:19:34 (GMT)
__ __ gerry -:- OK, Marianne, but just one more? -:- Thurs, Dec 07, 2000 at 20:07:23 (GMT)
__ __ __ Marianne -:- Loved the ode to Pat Halley, ger -:- Thurs, Dec 07, 2000 at 20:10:58 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ cq -:- Cork? Blimey, introduce me to Father Ted will ya? -:- Thurs, Dec 07, 2000 at 21:27:06 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Marianne -:- Cork? Blimey, introduce me to Father Ted will ya? -:- Thurs, Dec 07, 2000 at 21:46:05 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ cq -:- Will email you tomorrow with all the news (nt) -:- Fri, Dec 08, 2000 at 18:48:32 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ gerry -:- Pop a cork in Cork for me... -:- Thurs, Dec 07, 2000 at 20:17:56 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Marianne -:- Patty/Ireland --OT -:- Thurs, Dec 07, 2000 at 20:25:46 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ gerry -:- Nyet, but will go there now (nt) -:- Thurs, Dec 07, 2000 at 20:34:34 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Disculta -:- What, you're going and I haven't met you! -:- Fri, Dec 08, 2000 at 20:34:09 (GMT)


Date: Fri, Dec 08, 2000 at 07:12:09 (GMT)
From: Aussi Ji
Email: None
To: gerry
Subject: Can you quote me?
Message:
Yes gerry you can use the quote 'spat the dummy'.I am not sure if it is the same as 'shit the bed'Another similar saying to 'spat the dummy 'would be 'had the dick' or 'shit itself' or 'nackered' or 'it's wheels fell off'These are all good ol' aussi sayings.
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Date: Fri, Dec 08, 2000 at 12:17:09 (GMT)
From: Oliver
Email: None
To: Aussi Ji
Subject: Can you quote me?
Message:
Doesn't 'spat the dummy' mean 'lost my temper?'

It does where I live.

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Date: Fri, Dec 08, 2000 at 22:08:59 (GMT)
From: Aussi Ji
Email: None
To: Oliver
Subject: Can you quote me?
Message:
Yes it does,as well as 'broke down'where I come from(those strange colloquilisms)
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Date: Fri, Dec 08, 2000 at 06:52:38 (GMT)
From: Scott T.
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: A Prediction
Message:
I think the Ds will lose in Martin and Seminole Counties, but the Florida Supreme Court will rule to count the ballots in Dade. I'll expand later on why I think that, but the media isn't talking about the right things, as usual. Suffice to say that most of us, led by the media obsession, are thinking in terms of this Presidential election result in the short term. I think the FL Court is thinking in terms of precedent and the voter. And they also don't want to be remembered by history as the group who were intimidated by the bullies in the Bush Gang from looking at the ballots, when we learn a few months down the line that Gore actually won by 2,000+ votes statewide. Anyway, we'll soon see.

--Scott

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Date: Sat, Dec 09, 2000 at 20:57:39 (GMT)
From: Scott T.
Email: None
To: Scott T.
Subject: Well, now I'm stumped.
Message:
There are some problems with merely counting the undervote in Florida, but I see the issue of Federalism as having been resolved. I've read the Florida ruling and it seems to me that there's a pretty solid case that they based their ruling on Florida law regarding election contests. To fudge that the USSC will have to get into the interpretation of Florida law, and by their own admission they don't have the authority to do that. So the only avenue that I can see for the Supremes to get involved has to do with 'equal protection' and voting rights. That is, they must see some asymmetry in the decision to manually count only the undervote, and this sufficiently concerned O'Connor and Kennedy that they agreed to virtually destroy the safe harbor by issuing a stay.

This does not bode well at all for the Gore team. On the other hand there are these uncounted votes still out there hanging over the heads of the less partisan judges like the Sword of Damocles. They are *certain* to be counted now, within several months of the election, by the end of February is my guess. It's clear how Scalia, Rhenquist and Thomas will vote, as well as the four liberal justices. But the question is, do Kennedy and O'Connor have enough imagination to see how history might look at them if they draw the necessarily temporary veil over this election and allow Bush to sneak in behind it? If I were Boese or Tribe I'd do my best to make that point, and address it directly to O'Connor.

It would be helpful if the USSC could impose some sort of statewide standards on Florida, but I think they lack jurisdiction. The 'standard' has already been established by Florida statute. Perhaps there's something they can do under equal protection, but the mere fact that some counties have punch card systems and others do not is already unequal treatment of votes, and can probably be demonstrated to a great deal of certainty using statistics. They may have painted themselves into a corner, where simply setting the clock back to the machine count will no longer be an option. (The 'sensitivity' to disparate treatment of votes is greater under a machine count than under a manual count, however poorly it's organized.) They'll need to justify their jurisdiction over the case, and they may have to adjudicate a hand count of Florida in order to do that.

Well, that's my prognostication. Again, in spite of what the Bush people have been saying I think the FL Supremes are bullet proof now as far as the second amendment and federalism goes. I think this is now a 'voting rights/equal protection' issue.

--Scott

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Date: Fri, Dec 08, 2000 at 21:48:23 (GMT)
From: JTF
Email: None
To: Scott T.
Subject: A Prediction/good call-now it's interesting(nt)
Message:
asdf
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Date: Fri, Dec 08, 2000 at 22:08:20 (GMT)
From: Scott T.
Email: None
To: JTF
Subject: A Prediction/good call-now it's interesting(nt)
Message:
Yeah, I also think that part of the reason for the 4/3 split is that some justices did not want to include undervotes from all counties. They probably felt, as did Boese, that this smacked of 'creating legislation.' It seems pretty dicey to me, so am interested to hear their reasoning. If they refer to the US Constitution, rather than the FL Constitution, they may get away with it. It also occurred to me that they were specifying something that none of the parties had requested. However, there were several conservative 'voters rights' groups, whose case could be construed as asking for a statewide count even though they were specifically asking for no count presumably in leiu of time constraints on a statewide count.

I think they, rather brilliantly, called everyone's bluff here. The US Supremes will have a very hard time justifying any decision that stops this count. It could still go in Bush's favor too, should he pick up a lot of votes in some of those Republican counties. It's not certain yet who, exactly, is going to conduct all these counts either. And it's also not clear whether they've left anything to the discretion of the counties.

--Scott

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Date: Fri, Dec 08, 2000 at 17:12:30 (GMT)
From: Joe
Email: None
To: Scott T.
Subject: A Prediction
Message:
Scott,

Those absentee ballot cases were a disaster from the beginning and Gore was smart to keep his distance from them. I thought it was interesting, however, that the media doesn't even make the distinction. On the MSNBC website, Rickman, the lawyer for the plaintiff in the Seminole case, was referred to as the 'Gore lawyer.' That's how superficial the coverage is.

I hope you are right about the Florida Supremes. Maybe the fact that they didn't give their decision immediately, like within a few hours, is a sign they are trying to craft a remedy. They know it would have to be quite detailed and explicit.

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Date: Fri, Dec 08, 2000 at 21:15:40 (GMT)
From: Scott T.
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: Question about FSC ruling
Message:
Joe:

I'm going to have to go into the prediction business. Looks like they may count the undervote in Duval county too, so that would put an end to the voting rights suit pending in Atlanta.

Anyway, thinking ahead what do you think of the following scenario? FL Legislature certifies the Bush slate. Gore wins after the manual count, and orders brother Jeb to certify the Gore electors. He refuses. The Congress can't agree on which slate to certify, and the default rule is problematic because the executive is in contempt of a court order. Sounds like a Constitutional crisis to me. I mean, we are into a situation that is not covered by the current constitutional rules: no 'controlling legal authority.'

--Scott

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Date: Fri, Dec 08, 2000 at 22:20:37 (GMT)
From: Joe
Email: None
To: Scott T.
Subject: Question about FSC ruling
Message:
I think the one thing Gore learned from Clinton, that served Clinton very well, was to NEVER give up. Clinton survived almost all his attackers, and actually flourished, partly just by dogged tenacity. I think Gore is in the same camp.

Anyway, thinking ahead what do you think of the following scenario? FL Legislature certifies the Bush slate. Gore wins after the manual count, and orders brother Jeb to certify the Gore electors. He refuses. The Congress can't agree on which slate to certify, and the default rule is problematic because the executive is in contempt of a court order. Sounds like a Constitutional crisis to me. I mean, we are into a situation that is not covered by the current constitutional rules: no 'controlling legal authority.'

I think the scenario is more like this: Assuming Gore picks up enough votes to win, which isn't certain but, since he only needs another 155 votes, it's more than possible, the Court would order Harris to certify the results and Bush to sign and certify. I don't think Bush would dare refuse, and since the legislature will also appoint electors because it would be the end of his career, and it won't be necessary in order to get a Bush slate before the Congress, because the legislature will certify another set for Bush. Then there will be two sets of electors and the Congress will have to decide which one to accept.

At that point, since Gore could be the tie-breaking vote in the Senate, look for a Democrat to switch parties. I think Breaux from Louisiana is the most likely. He is already making noises in that regard, especially if Bush wins. Then the republicans would have the votes in both houses, even with Gore presiding. It will be messy and politically costly, but the Republicans, unlike the Democrats, are committed to the very end to win. They will do anything.

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Date: Fri, Dec 08, 2000 at 23:27:31 (GMT)
From: Scott T.
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: Safe harbors
Message:
Joe:

Congressman Breau was in the back of the group that made the pro-Gore speech the other day standing behind Daschel (sp?). He's very conservative, but I think he can read the writing on the wall and will not back the man who clearly lost both the national popular vote, and the Florida vote, should that come to pass.

...the Court would order Harris to certify the results and Bush to sign and certify. I don't think Bush would dare refuse, and since the legislature will also appoint electors because it would be the end of his career, and it won't be necessary in order to get a Bush slate before the Congress, because the legislature will certify another set for Bush. Then there will be two sets of electors and the Congress will have to decide which one to accept.

Timing is critical, because it closes off certain options. If the Legislature certifies the Bush electors within the 'safe harbor' (ends at midnight Dec. 11) and the manual count and subsequent order to Harris doesn't occur until after the safe harbor, then the Bush electors would be presumptive. That assumes, however, that their process is legal and that's a murky area. Also, they may not have time to do that anyway, since they have to conduct a second reading of the statute and there are some delaying tactics that the Democrats can use. They only have to delay until midnight Monday and after that there's no safe harbor for anyone, so nothing has to be completed until Dec. 18th (or possibly not even until Jan. 6).

I think the only way the Bush electors would be seated, if Gore wins the recount, is if Jeb Bush defies a court order. He might employ some sort of legal strategy to do that, which might end up in the US Supreme Court. Anyway, it'll get resolved. The only way a Constitutional Crisis will ensue is if there are two constitutional provisions that are in conflict and there's no way to resolve the conflict. I don't see that here... yet.

BTW, you can check the new language the FL Supremes are using in this recent decision at:

http://www.firn.edu/supct/index.html

It's the 'Gore v. Harris' link at the top. They've dropped most reference to the FL Constitution, and now refer only to FL statute and electoral tradition going back to the 1840s. It looks pretty robust to me. Haven't read the dissent though.

--Scott

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Date: Fri, Dec 08, 2000 at 23:49:47 (GMT)
From: Joe
Email: None
To: Scott T.
Subject: Safe harbors
Message:
Congressman Breau was in the back of the group that made the pro-Gore speech the other day standing behind Daschel (sp?). He's very conservative, but I think he can read the writing on the wall and will not back the man who clearly lost both the national popular vote, and the Florida vote, should that come to pass.

I think John Breaux might switch parties (like Shelby in Alabama and Campbell in Colorado did in 1994), just to be in the majority. He is in an increasingly republican state, with two democratic senators, and Mary Leandrieu just BARELY got elected in 1996, when Clinton easily carried the state. So, he might not switch just to vote in Bush, but I think he might switch nonetheless. He might stand behind Gore, but he has been saying things that aren't all that supportive. Also, the perception in the country is that Bush won. (It will be interesting to see if that changes if the counting shows Gore won.) And it's unclear how much heat he would take in Louisiana, except among blacks, but as a Republican he wouldn't get their votes anyway.

I was assuming that either both sets of electors would be certified by 12/12, or neither would be. They would either both have safe harbor, or they wouldn't. I think the legislature is already too late to meed the 12/12 deadline, unless they certify today.

Did you read the dissent of the chief justice? Sounds like he has a few good points, and sounded just like the Bush team.

I just have a hard time seeing how all this recounting is going to happen so quickly.

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Date: Sat, Dec 09, 2000 at 01:42:51 (GMT)
From: Scott T.
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: Dead and dying lines.
Message:
Joe:

I was assuming that either both sets of electors would be certified by 12/12, or neither would be.

Odds are neither will be. I think the 18th is when the Electoral College meets and casts it's vote, but that's almost irrelevant anyway because there will almost certainly be two sets of electors, and the deterimination of which to seat won't be made until Jan. 6. At that time Florida will cast its votes and they'll be counted. In other words, Dec. 18 is not a drop dead date either, except in the sense that if the count hasn't determined a winner then the Bush electors may be presumptive. (I'm not sure about that.) Delay, up to a point, is probably still to Bush's advantage but only for awhile.

I think Breaux's desire to become a Republican in order to be on the majority may be tempered by the dwindling prospects of the Republicans in the Senate. They've lost ground for three cycles in a row, and are now set to lose their majority status. Strom Thurmond is set to kick the bucket on an inclement sneeze, and will be replaced by an appointed Democrat, so their majority may not even survive until 2002. Same with Helms, who is not in good health.

--Scott

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Date: Fri, Dec 08, 2000 at 20:43:17 (GMT)
From: Scott T.
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: A Prediction
Message:
Joe:

The other thing they might do is simply announce that they're going to count the ballots before ruling on the election contest issue. Theoretically they could count the ballots, find that Gore doesn't have enough to change the outcome, and then rule against the contest of the election.

--Scott

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Date: Fri, Dec 08, 2000 at 12:48:20 (GMT)
From: bill
Email: None
To: Scott T.
Subject: A Prediction
Message:
I was for gore as a less dangerous candidate, but I am pissed at him for his insulting behaviour and his lying and all his lawyers and bonior and gephardt and daley as well as run of the mill democrats and the approaches he condoned amonst his troops.

I loath him now and would prefer anyone else.

I do agree with your fla court assessments.

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Date: Fri, Dec 08, 2000 at 19:06:12 (GMT)
From: Jerry
Email: None
To: bill
Subject: A Prediction
Message:
I agree about Gore, Bill. He's a Republican running around in a Democrat's suit, like Bill Clinton. But you really don't want Bush. This guy is bad news. I hope Gore does pull this off, even if I think it's bullshit this spin about how it's the vote that matters, and how everyone of them should be counted. In a national election, it's estimated that anywhere from 1 to 2 million votes don't get counted for one reason or another. Some viewer on CNN asked the pertinent question concerning this when she asked, 'When will people realize that 3 counties in Florida don't represent the entire nation'? Have you heard the joke about Palm Beach County, yet? We put the 'duh' in Florida.
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Date: Fri, Dec 08, 2000 at 19:45:38 (GMT)
From: Joe
Email: None
To: Jerry
Subject: A Prediction
Message:
Jerry,

Whether you agree with Gore or not politically, it is a fact that over 50 million people voted for him, more than voted for George Bush. We are supposed to be a country of 'one man one vote', which isn't really the case. But I really disagree that 'every vote should count' is some kind of a ridiculous goal, especially when it's pretty clear, as in this case, that Gore won both the popular vote and the state of Florida, if we made the effort to actually count the votes. Gore owes it to the people who voted for him, no matter how unenthusiastically he voted for him, to at least try to get the votes counted. And the country ought to take the time to make sure that the 'will of the people' actually gets carried out, despite our very imperfect system.

Not every state is as screwed up as Florida, you know. Washington state, for example, just did a recount in the Senate race up there and found only a 220-vote discrepancy in 4 million votes cast. Very different from the Florida situation.

Joe

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Date: Sat, Dec 09, 2000 at 15:09:21 (GMT)
From: Jerry
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: A Prediction
Message:
Joe,

I don't think it's so clear Gore won Florida. I don't think we'll ever really know just who won. I don't see how counting hanging, swinging, and dimpled chads is going to give us a 'clear' winner. As for every vote counting, have you noticed that the song (since the Seminole and Martin county fiascos) is every 'legal' vote should count, not just every vote, period, but every legal vote? It makes me want to laugh. Heck, it does make me laugh.

Hahaha!

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Date: Sat, Dec 09, 2000 at 16:19:41 (GMT)
From: Scott T.
Email: None
To: Jerry
Subject: A Prediction
Message:
Jerry:

As for every vote counting, have you noticed that the song (since the Seminole and Martin county fiascos) is every 'legal' vote should count, not just every vote, period, but every legal vote?

Hasn't that always been implied? The only reason to state it explicitly is that some people apparently seem to think illegal votes should be counted too. For instance, if alleged 'disparate treatment' had been proved in Seminole and Martin I think they would have had to throw out all the ballots, because illegal ballots would have been infused in the overall vote count. And anyway, it's perfectly permissible to state something as an ideal even if it can't be practically attained. How about: 'All men are created equal.'? Do you really think that's demonstrably accurate?

--Scott

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Date: Sat, Dec 09, 2000 at 05:28:53 (GMT)
From: bill
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: A Prediction
Message:
putting aside the bad behaviours and excess here and there, I like the wacky twists and turns.

What do you say Joe, dont you think the exact same results could have been had without anyone needing to insult voters by
spinning us so bad?

I mean, this is a legal issue, not a poll issue as someone mentioned, so there was no compelling reason not to have behaved in a classy way.

That is what I find so dissappointing about gore.

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Date: Sat, Dec 09, 2000 at 15:24:38 (GMT)
From: Scott T.
Email: None
To: bill
Subject: Gore and undervote
Message:
Bill:

I mean, this is a legal issue, not a poll issue as someone mentioned, so there was no compelling reason not to have behaved in a classy way.

I think that Gore would have been taken to the cleaners if he 'played fair' with Bush. Recall what happened to McCain. They would have driven him into the ground with that 'sore loser' nonsense. This is really a 'poll' issue in the sense that to keep going you need public support of some kind. And I'm not sure what lies you're talking about either. My impression is that what few statements Gore has made have at least been reflective of the popular wisdom of his case. He's not alway accurate, but neither is the media. I certainly could have missed something though.

a separate issue

Now I can't figure out what they're going to do in Duval County, and I'm not sure what they did in Dade. When they separated the undervote didn't they update the machine count at the same time? If not, then they might very well be double counting some ballots. But again, this stellar media is simply not giving us the critical information. Did they just run a bunch of ballots through and separated the undervote without counting?

I suppose what they could do, and what they intended to do in Dade, is punch a set of duplicates for the undervote where they discerned a valid vote, put those back with the whole set of ballots, and run them through again for a count. Since they've eliminated all the 'real' undervote, then they shouldn't have any undervote in the final count, so that would give them a check of their accuracy. But, is that what they're doing or not? I really don't fault the Republicans for bringing this up, as long as they keep the objections valid and succinct.

--Scott

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Date: Sun, Dec 10, 2000 at 02:24:38 (GMT)
From: bill
Email: None
To: Scott T.
Subject: Gore fibs
Message:
Hi Scott T.
I think Gore could have easily maintained public support for his continued efforts by just stateing his case without insulting his listeners.
I read where you mention not being up on all his comments.
If you give me some time, I will in the future point them out as the election review books come out.
In his last speech of about monday, his three main points were lies. And the new york times even gave him flak for it.
I didnt expect them to chime in chideing him as they also are
siding with him in the way they slant thier stories.

I was going to report back to you on the last part of your post
but as you know, they stopped for a while.

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Date: Sun, Dec 10, 2000 at 04:30:28 (GMT)
From: Scott T.
Email: None
To: bill
Subject: Gore fibs
Message:
Bill:

Well, the one lie that really stands out to me is the fiction that 'all the votes that were cast without voter error [or what that fat idiot Kluck call 'voter airrr'] have been counted.' That's just insulting to the third power.

As I said, this 'back door equal protection' claim that Scalia it touting is not going to fly, and that's really the only justification they have for intervening. I think one or two justices may end up abandoning him on that one. The reason is that if you look at the inequity in the sort of voting machines that are used in Florida it has far greater equal protection implications that the manual counting protocol. Indeed, if the Supreme Court ends up upholding the Bush side on those grounds you should expect the Gore people to file a case to throw out all the Florida vote on the same grounds. You can't strain out gnats and swallow camels.

The only possible Second Amendment issue I've heard raised concerns the fact that the Florida Contest law gives the circuit courts plenary power, and this power is claimed by the FL Supremes. At most, this would mean that the case is remanded so that the determination of remedy is left to the individual state circuits, which would CLEARLY INTRODUCE EVEN MORE INEQUITY. I think the Supremes were very imprudent to take this case, but we'll see.

And furthermore, none of the concurring opinions raise Second Amendment issues... so what we are dealing with is a very weird equal protection interpretation that will just crumble on close inspection. Wonder what Joe thinks.

--Scott

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Date: Fri, Dec 08, 2000 at 14:38:49 (GMT)
From: Scott T.
Email: None
To: bill
Subject: A Prediction
Message:
Bill:

I've been thinking about the potential of having Bush as president, and it might be fun. Leno last night had this skit where he was supposedly interviewing Gore and Bush and he took out this tennis ball and, as you do when you trick your dog, he pretended to throw it. Of course Bush looked immediately at where he thought the ball had gone.

And as for hilarious inconsistency how about Barry Richards, making an impassioned speach in the Seminole case for the 'sanctity of the voter' and then almost immediatly before the Supreme Court touting the opinion that not one single voter in that pile of 9,000+ undervotes in Dade deserves to have a vote counted?

The best thing for the Democrats is to lose this election as a result of some transparent machination of the Bush family in Florida. If the Democrats have to make excuses for Gore for the next four years it'll drain them dry. But it *is* the voter that's really important, not which candidate wins.

--Scott

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Date: Sat, Dec 09, 2000 at 00:22:45 (GMT)
From: bill
Email: None
To: Scott T.
Subject: A Prediction
Message:
Joe mentions agreeing with the politics of one or the other, for me, the political view of the guy, or the policies he leans to
was secondary because I thought that bush was someone who has a hot streak in him and I didnt trust him to behave in the face of intenational challenges. Although I am more of an earth first type and gore would seem to be the proper choice for me because of that, I now dont want to see him again period.

It was a bush supported who took a saw to that girls tree out west, but I will endure the pat robertson maniacs before I would
have gore in there now. Not that I have any choice in the matter!

Who am I to sqeak? as our lord once said.

The dems wont 'make excuses for gore for the next four years' if he gets in. They will continue to lie and vilify and distort and blame the republicans, who are not all made of one mold.

I have read the ot threads but not chimed in because I didnt have much to say, but this last two weeks gore really ticked me off.

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Date: Sat, Dec 09, 2000 at 02:02:12 (GMT)
From: Scott T.
Email: None
To: bill
Subject: A Prediction
Message:
They will continue to lie and vilify and distort and blame the republicans, who are not all made of one mold.

Well, if they aren't of one mold there sure isn't much diversity at the moment. They all see the vote controversy one way (No second helping of votes please. I'm stuffed!) while the Democrats all see it the other way (Gimme more votes. I'm starved!) It occurs to me that we are finally seeing a fundamental difference between Republicans and Democrats: That Republicans favor a Republic, and Democrats favor a Democracy. A Republic sort of looks at voters as 'advisors,' while a Democracy looks at them as 'decision-makers.' An unfettered Democracy composed largely of disinterested and marginally informed invidivuals is probably not a good idea, but it may be time to give that concept a little more weight.

I know what you're saying about Gore. In a word, 'unctuous.'

--Scott

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Date: Sat, Dec 09, 2000 at 04:57:23 (GMT)
From: bill
Email: None
To: Scott T.
Subject: Oliver Ellsworth
Message:
Hi Scott T,
I guess I am a bit shocked by gore, Iwas willing to allow for typical human political flaws in the guy, but not to see the
in your face lying, maybe I am overreactive because of my
lord of the universe experience!

I still think bush is riskier, but if his adult advisors are strong enough, they could keep him in check. But I think if he ends up president, his mouth will cause problems. Big ones.

Near me is a museum for Oliver Ellsworth, I did a big project there over the years, includeing this fall during the election.
So there I was, surrounded by 1776 info and memorabilia.
Reading words and speeches and at the same time getting recent spin based distortion of info to influence voters.

It was kind of disconcerting, but this post election performance really has shown characters for what they are made of and it is
disgusting frankly. Granted, not all the characters showed all thier stuff because a number of them kept quiet somewhat.

Oh well! I dont really expect the place to fall apart, and if I really had to decide it, I would probably just say I choose the one that was most freindly to environmental zealots.

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Date: Fri, Dec 08, 2000 at 18:28:19 (GMT)
From: Marianne
Email: None
To: Scott T.
Subject: Bush won't be 'fun' for me
Message:
Scott: I appreciate your humor about this, but a Bush presidency will be totally disastrous for me and my clients. I've stayed away from these threads because the prospect really does make me feel sick to my stomach. I was up at San Quentin this week visiting clients, and they all wanted to talk about the election. Believe me, they are worried.

The SF paper reported today that Clinton has given a reprieve to Jesse Garza, the first federal death row inmate, who was to be executed in a few days. The Justice Dept. did a study in which it was revealed that 70% of the federal death sentenced inmates are either Latino or black, and come from a handfull of states, including Texas, of course. Clinton entered the reprieve so that consideration could be given to the racial disparity issue in deciding whether to grant executive clemency and set aside the death sentence. As death penalty opponents quickly pointed out, the result of this is probably that Garza's clemency petition will end up in front of Bush. Arrrrggghhhhh.

Marianne

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Date: Sat, Dec 09, 2000 at 18:42:33 (GMT)
From: cq
Email: None
To: Marianne
Subject: The 'Texecutioner' Bush won't be 'fun' at all
Message:
Just found this site:

http://members.nbci.com/ccadp/inmateart.htm,

maybe you're familiar with it (then again ...)

and here's some work from an artist who's on death row at the moment:
http://members.nbci.com/ccadp/tullyart1.htm

That's some job you're doing there Marianne. Pity our Latvian night wasn't long enough to get into a discussion on your work, and how (if at all) it relates to this place.

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Date: Sat, Dec 09, 2000 at 19:34:42 (GMT)
From: cq
Email: None
To: Marianne et al
Subject: ... at least not for these people:
Message:

http://members.nbci.com/ccadp/serialpresident.htm
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Date: Fri, Dec 08, 2000 at 20:48:52 (GMT)
From: Scott T.
Email: None
To: Marianne
Subject: Bush won't be 'fun' for me
Message:
Marianne:

Of course I was just kidding about it being fun. According to some of the religious right the first thing Bush will do is disallow all of Clinton's executive orders. That is... if he can read them.

--Scott

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Date: Fri, Dec 08, 2000 at 19:06:57 (GMT)
From: Joe
Email: None
To: Marianne
Subject: Think Clinton will Pardon Leonard Pelltier?
Message:
That's one thing I hoping Clinton will do before he leaves office. It is a true travesty that Pelltier has been in prison for 25 years when both the prosecutor and the FBI agents agree there was no evidence to convict him.

Apparently as a pre-emptive strike, our old fascist friend Henry Hyde (he, like George W., a hypocrite who had 'youthful indescretions' well into his 40s), just circulated a letter from Freeh, saying a pardon of Pelltier would be disrespectful of the law enforcement community.

I hope Clinton does the right thing on that one. Clinton gave an interview to Amy Goodman on WBAI in New York and she asked him directly. He said Pelltier would get a decision from him one way or the other before he leaves office. [Just in the nick of time before the grand executioner takes office.]

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Date: Fri, Dec 08, 2000 at 19:28:15 (GMT)
From: gerry
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: Joe, did you read 'In the Spirit of Crazy Horse'
Message:
I thought it looked bad for Leonard Peltier and supposedly it was pro-Peltier book.

Somebody executed those two young FBI agents in a cold and ruthless gangland style. They were fired upon from afar when driving up to a house to ask some questions. Both were shot attempting to get their weapons out of the trunk and then 'finished off' with close range shots to the head.

Peltier was admittedly there and admittedly firing shots if I recall correctly.

Not many people dislike the government and their police state tactics here more than I, but I can't help thinking about those young men and the wives and children they left behind.

No doubt the trial was fucked up and he deserves a second trial, though.

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Date: Fri, Dec 08, 2000 at 21:57:26 (GMT)
From: Joe
Email: None
To: gerry
Subject: Joe, did you read 'In the Spirit of Crazy Horse'
Message:
I haven't read the book, but there has plenty written about how there wasn't any evidence to convict Peltier. Yeah, the killings were bad, but that isn't a good enough reason to convict someone.
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Date: Fri, Dec 08, 2000 at 20:23:39 (GMT)
From: Marianne
Email: None
To: gerry and Joe
Subject: About Peltier
Message:
Ok, you guys, I worked with the American Indian Movement for years in an organization called the Native American Solidarity Committee. I even have a photo of me giving a speech on the steps of the federal building in SF during an Anti-FBI demonstration our organizations sponsored together.

Clinton will never pardon Peltier because it was 2 FBI agents who were killed. That is the beginning and end of it. I absolutely believe that Peltier did not do it. His co-defendants were acquitted in a separate trial in Nebraska. Evidence withheld by the government shows that the gun that the prosecution said Peltier used to kill the agents could not have fired the bullets found at the crime scene. Even the Chief Judge of the 8th Circuit Court of Appeals wrote to Clinton telling him that Peltier should be pardoned based on that evidence. But, the bottom line is that it was FBI agents and politicians are chicken shit when it comes to law enforcement. Believe me, it would be easier to give clemency to Garza than to pardon Peltier. In this sense, the ghost of J. Edgar Hoover lives on.

Joe and Gerry, did you ever read the biography of Hoover by Curt Gentry? It is fabulous, and a must read for anyone who practices federal criminal defense.

Marianne

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Date: Fri, Dec 08, 2000 at 21:55:29 (GMT)
From: Joe
Email: None
To: Marianne
Subject: Are you sure?
Message:
Maybe now that Clinton can't run for re-election he might just do it. There is no love lost between Clinton and Freeh. Those last minute pardons, like Bush pardoning all the Iran-contra criminals was a case in point. He didn't seem to really pay for that politically.

There are quite a few people who disagree with you, Marianne. Clinton sounded pretty sincere in his interview on WBAI, but then he is pretty good at sounding sincere.

I hope we are both surprised. I am convinced that Peltier did not do it, was set up for it, and should be freed.

I heard about the Hoover biography, but I didn't read it. I did see the documentary on his life; that was bad enough.

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Date: Sat, Dec 09, 2000 at 00:32:12 (GMT)
From: bill
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: Are you sure?
Message:
Wasnt it Hyde that was linked in some way to the bombing of that Woman who was a earth first leader?
They set her up to die in the bomb and then accused her of having the bomb in her car to go bomb timber interests.
That case is moving slowly in courts I hear. But moving.
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Date: Sat, Dec 09, 2000 at 02:05:39 (GMT)
From: Scott T.
Email: None
To: bill
Subject: Are you sure?
Message:
I had a girlfriend in Earth First once (actually Cathedral Forest Action Group). What was her name?
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Date: Sat, Dec 09, 2000 at 05:20:43 (GMT)
From: bill
Email: None
To: Scott T.
Subject: Are you sure?
Message:
Today I cannot remember her name.
She survived the blast but died later.
Her kids are now involved with the court case.
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Date: Sat, Dec 09, 2000 at 15:31:27 (GMT)
From: Scott T.
Email: None
To: bill
Subject: Are you sure?
Message:
Bill:

The girl I'm thinking of had only one little boy, so it's probably not her. Mary Beth Nearing, who was the head of CFAG, didn't have any children... so it probably wasn't her either. Still, I might have known her. I used to know a lot of those people, and did some setup of for the Paul Winter concert they did in the woods, building the stage, etc. I can't recall many names though. This was back in 1986. For some reason a lot of it is a bit hazy.

--Scott

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Date: Sat, Dec 09, 2000 at 15:33:44 (GMT)
From: Scott T.
Email: None
To: Scott T.
Subject: Are you sure?
Message:
The girl I'm thinking of had only one little boy, so it's probably not her.

Her name was 'Emily' BTW, in case you get the name of the girl in the bombing.

--Scott

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Date: Sat, Dec 09, 2000 at 05:35:43 (GMT)
From: Marianne
Email: None
To: bill
Subject: Judi Bari
Message:
She was the woman who died and was involved in Earth First.
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Date: Sat, Dec 09, 2000 at 16:24:30 (GMT)
From: Scott T.
Email: None
To: Marianne
Subject: Judi Bari
Message:
Thanks. I don't know her, fortunately. Truth is, I only knew people in CFAG which is a non-violent wing who practiced civil disobedience, but refused to participate in any of the more destructive tactics of Earth First.
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Date: Sun, Dec 10, 2000 at 14:43:08 (GMT)
From: bill
Email: None
To: Scott T.
Subject: Marianne I thought you would know.
Message:
She helped get the group to stop doing its more radical actions.
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Date: Tues, Dec 12, 2000 at 23:09:52 (GMT)
From: Joe
Email: None
To: bill
Subject: It was Judi Bari who was bombed.
Message:
Judi Bari, who was part of Earth First, was bombed in her car, in Oakland in 1991, and for a while she and Daryl Cherney, who was also in the car, were accused of bombing themselves. This was later dropped, but Judi and Daryl sued the FBI and I think that suit is still going on.

Unfortunately, Judi died of cancer a year or so ago, and lived in a lot of pain from the bombing during the final years of her life. She was a truly remarkable person.

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Date: Fri, Dec 08, 2000 at 05:14:32 (GMT)
From: Paul Bunyeon
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: just wanted to tell ya
Message:
that you guys suck.
and then on the other hand
there's something inside that doesn't.
just wanted to tell ya..
and then i changed my mind..
why waste my time
which one's it gonna be ?
the one that bitches all the time
or the one which is loved and felt ?
doesn't matter if you have K or don't have K,
a bitch is a bitch and a royal pain in the arse.
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Date: Sat, Dec 09, 2000 at 05:15:37 (GMT)
From: Deputy Dog
Email: None
To: Paul Bunyeon
Subject: just wanted to tell ya
Message:
Right on Paul,

You can light a candle or curse the darkness.

I was at a concert years ago, all the light were turned off and the audience was asked to light matches or lighters. It was pitch black for a few seconds and suddenly you could see a match here and a lighter there, until eventually there was about 30 or 40 lights lit and you could actually see. These 30 or 40 lights had made it possible to actually see in the arena. Maybe it was the hash, but I've always been impressed by that incident.

Is there a lesson to be learned here he asked, expecting the answer no.

Diamond Dog

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Date: Mon, Dec 11, 2000 at 07:39:57 (GMT)
From: Stonor
Email: None
To: Deputy Dog
Subject: just wanted to tell ya DD
Message:
BTW, that was one of my mother's favorite expressions, and is one of mine. It went, 'Why curse the darkness when you can light a candle?' It has NOTHING to do with 'k'. She died over 25 years ago.
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Date: Sat, Dec 09, 2000 at 05:30:06 (GMT)
From: Stonor
Email: None
To: Deputy Dog
Subject: I saw Bowie's 'Diamond Dog' show ...
Message:
Why would you choose that name?
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Date: Sat, Dec 09, 2000 at 06:07:24 (GMT)
From: Deputy Dog
Email: None
To: Stonor
Subject: I saw Bowie's 'Diamond Dog' show ...
Message:
The Buddhist Diamond Sutra, Pink Floyd's 'Shine on you Crazy Diamond,' my monicker Deputy Dog, the combination, I don't know.

What does it mean? How do I know? Why not ask Anth why he means with all the weird names he uses.

I am a Bowie fan but I'm not gay. I'm not gay, really. I'm really not gay damn it!

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Date: Sat, Dec 09, 2000 at 16:45:36 (GMT)
From: Stonor
Email: None
To: Deputy Dog
Subject: I saw Bowie's 'Diamond Dog' show ...
Message:
When I got the image of Bowie's 'Diamond Dogs' cavorting about with their leashes held by Bowie I was reminded of the domination/submission element so essential to m's groupies, oops, sorry, I meant devotees.

Funny that you read a suggestion of homosexuality into that association - some might suggest that there is an element of homophobia in your reaction. To my knowledge, Bowie was somewhat ambiguous about his sexuality. Anyways - who cares?

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Date: Tues, Dec 12, 2000 at 14:43:48 (GMT)
From: Deputy Dog
Email: None
To: Stonor
Subject: Stonor
Message:
Stonor,

I'm not devotional and I don't see it all that strange that people associate David Bowie with homosexuality.

My boss is gay and quite civilized, conscious, and sensitive. I get along with him fine, and I'm not gay.

I guess my post was an attempt at humour.

Deputy Dog

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Date: Wed, Dec 13, 2000 at 01:32:02 (GMT)
From: Stonor
Email: None
To: Deputy Dog
Subject: Deputy Dog
Message:
Yes, DD, I know that it was supposed to be a joke. I guess my sense of humour runs along different lines. And you didn't answer my questions way below, so that makes me a little cranky. If you want to see how cranky, check out my pic at Anything Goes, see Bazza, 'Shazzammm!!'. You'll be glad this is only virtual space, but even so, we do seem to have been getting along like cats and dogs anyways!

(And Harry thought he was the only one who finds my sense of humour limited! ;-)

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Date: Sun, Dec 10, 2000 at 02:15:41 (GMT)
From: Salam
Email: salam_au@iprimus.com.au
To: Stonor
Subject: I saw Bowie's 'Diamond Dog' show ...
Message:
You still flirting with those infidels are you?

No your ex-guru is upset and demands that you e-mail him on the above e-mail to see if his e-mail is working. Do not use the otherone as I do not know where it's gonne.

Cheers

Salam

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Date: Sun, Dec 10, 2000 at 02:27:53 (GMT)
From: Stonor
Email: None
To: Salam
Subject: Your demand demand has been fulfilled, my ex-guru.
Message:
Done. I await your next command, my ex(?!!)guru.

(Oh no, what have I done?!!) It's cq's fault, isn't it?!!???

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Date: Sat, Dec 09, 2000 at 08:34:23 (GMT)
From: AJW
Email: None
To: Deputy Dog
Subject: Monickers
Message:
Hi Dog,

Back in 1968, when the acid was pure, I took a trip and my personality split into about 10,000 little personalities. Now, each time I sit down to type, the next one in the queue gets a chance at the keyboard. I reckon by the year 2010 they should all have had a turn.

Anth the Milkman who lives in Leeds with a Sri Lankan wife and nine children, who spends all his money on lottery tickets and is thinking about learning the recorder.

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Date: Sat, Dec 09, 2000 at 00:12:27 (GMT)
From: Daneane
Email: None
To: Paul Bunyeon
Subject: Everybody sucks...the problem is...
Message:
some don't know they suck.
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Date: Fri, Dec 08, 2000 at 18:32:25 (GMT)
From: cq
Email: None
To: Paul Bunyeon
Subject: Hey, hypocrite, you bitchin' about us again? (nt)
Message:
hah!
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Date: Fri, Dec 08, 2000 at 17:22:31 (GMT)
From: Pauline Premie
Email: None
To: Paul Bunyeon
Subject: Yes ex-premies are all bitches.....
Message:
But then, we, as premies, in fact all human beings, are nothing more than coagulated dust without Maharaji. And I agree with what you said, and I have always felt it in my heart, that the fact that Maharaji and that knowledge, and that 'something inside,' don't 'suck' is the most ringing endorsement of that love, that truth, that peace and that synchronized experience, there could ever be.

It's just so beautiful. I mean, only premies like you and me, and of course Maharaji, are in a position to know that everyone who doesn't have that understanding of that love, that truth, that peace and that synchronized experience, just suck, and we know they are really unhappy and lost. It's just so obvious because they are all negative and say negative things to other people, especially premies, ulike you, of course, who would never do that. You are obviously experiencing the divine love and are completely satisfied, and are only saying ex-premies 'suck' and are 'bitches' out of that ultimate love Maharaji has given you. It's just so synchronized and beautiful.

Thank you for your inspiring post.

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Date: Fri, Dec 08, 2000 at 08:43:13 (GMT)
From: AJW
Email: None
To: Paul Bunyeon
Subject: Yeah Paul
Message:
...we should just shut out mouths and open our wallets right?

You're in a cult Paul.

Cult!Cult!Cult!Cult!Cult!Cult!Cult!Cult!Cult!Cult!Cult!Cult!Cult!Cult!Cult!Cult!Cult!Cult!Cult!Cult!Cult!Cult!Cult!Cult!Cult!Cult!Cult!Cult!

But you don't hear me do you?

Anth who was in the same cult once.

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Date: Fri, Dec 08, 2000 at 05:24:14 (GMT)
From: TD
Email: None
To: Paul Bunyeon
Subject: Hey is that a rap song from a new Visions CD?
Message:
Get Daya to do the backing vocals, and you're all set....
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Date: Fri, Dec 08, 2000 at 08:27:48 (GMT)
From: Tonette
Email: None
To: TD
Subject: OMG that's funny! nt
Message:
nt
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Date: Fri, Dec 08, 2000 at 04:27:03 (GMT)
From: Bazza
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: Hey Bob Dole's with us!
Message:
I was doing a little 'research' in the library the other day, and came across one of many post-Jonestown articles in the Miami herald.

This one, dated Febraury 6th 1979 concerns Bob Dole's interest in the Moonies:

Sen. Robert Dole (R., Kan.) ended an informal congressional hearing on religious cults Monday, with a vow to continue probing despite what he called intimidation by some religious groups.

'We can take the heat' Dole told a hearing jammed with supporters and opponents of so-called cult groups, primarily [Moonies].

Dole indicated he would seek a hearing by the Senate Finance Committee on the 'tax-exempt status' held by [such] groups.

[snip]

About a dozen other witnesses said religious cults practice mind control, deception and other techniques that should be investigated and prohibited by the government.

© Knight Ridder Group 1979

Anyone wanting to ask Bob if he still feels as strongly about cults can email him HERE

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Date: Fri, Dec 08, 2000 at 16:24:40 (GMT)
From: Scott T.
Email: None
To: Bazza
Subject: Hey Bob Dole's with us!
Message:
Bazza:

What's the point? He's no longer a decision-maker. There's also a reason why the tax exemption limitations being considered were never adopted. Where's the dividing line between a 'cult' and a 'sect?' This being a sectarian country that's a fairly important distinction.

--Scott

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Date: Fri, Dec 08, 2000 at 02:31:29 (GMT)
From: TiM
Email: MahaSamadhi
To: Gerry
Subject: gerry - What yogic powers?
Message:
Anyone can develop yogic powers. Padre Pio, Sri Chinmo, Harold Klemp, Tibetan Yogis. The only proof is to diligently work with a yogi for several years and develop them yoursef. A real yogi
demonstrates the reality of transcendental energy. That's why you get involved. Just as the famous Ken Wilber eventual got invlved with a Tibetan Yogi - that Yogi showed Wilber an experience of the final goal and Wilber signed up as an aspirant in reaching such a demonstrated goal. Rawar demonstrated his energy filed in darshan lines. It wasn't an emotional hype. But once you work diligently for five years you find out those powers can be used for beneficial or harmful ends. I used them harmfuly. I found out Rawat was using them harmfuly, even to kill Harold Washngton. I walked away. Ther I found out how horrifingly dangerous it is to walk away and begin loosing it. That's why Rawat doesn't retire. He has to go on or face the horror of his power backlashing upon himself. ui survived because what I had developed was minor, but real. I think Rawat should be got rid of. But how could anyone get rid of him with the clairvoyance he has, the power of bilocation, the ability to snuff someone out from long distance. He's rich mainly thru insider traiding via clairvoyance and investing the darshan line money thereby. Most premies never found out about the transcendental connection because they just went along for the cult thing which they developed even though Rawat tried to stop it. Dear rats know nothing.
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Date: Fri, Dec 08, 2000 at 21:16:05 (GMT)
From: Sir Dave
Email: None
To: TiM
Subject: Rawat's waning mystical powers
Message:
He hasn't snuffed out this web site yet, has he, nor all the other ex-premie sites, despite him paying through the nose to get expensive lawyers to work for him.

By the way, if you consider all the people here to be 'dead rats' then what do you consider the premies to be? Live rats?

.. Dave

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Date: Fri, Dec 08, 2000 at 13:41:25 (GMT)
From: AJW
Email: None
To: TiM
Subject: Earth calling TiM
Message:
TiM

Your head is full of wierd fantasies. Did you do lots of acid in the 60s?

Have you got any friends or relatives you can talk to about these wierd beliefs?

The only way to snuff someone out over a long distance is with a missile.

Where did you get these crazy ideas from- like Maharaji being clairyoyant. Really TiM- it's time you came back to Earth.

Anth the Earthling

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Date: Fri, Dec 08, 2000 at 02:53:26 (GMT)
From: GErry
Email: None
To: TiM
Subject: gerry - What yogic powers?
Message:
It's not necesary to start a new thread for each of your posts and it makes other discussions go into the inactive mode before people are finished with the discussion. If you don't mind please follow our unwritten, but generally accepted protocal of responding to others' post in a single thread. When you have a new topic to discuss, then it's fine to start a new thread. Just for your information so you don't unduly distress anyone here, OK?

Tim, you probably won't like what I have to say but please take it in the spirit it is given. Exiting this cult after so many years is difficult. And meditation can provide what seems to be unexplanable experiences, and indeed some of the experiences are extraordinary.

What I see in your writings is someone who is very upset at the whole thing and needs to talk about it with a professional. A lot of us here have had similiar difficulties adjusting and many have found that a good therapist with a sympathetic ear can do wonders. Also, sometimes brain chemistry can get out of whack and there are remedies available for that, too.

Please keep in mind that we support you in your effort to sort this whole thing out but we are not professionals and even if we were, there is not much we can do over the internet. You need some real, live assistance and we can't do that for you.

Also, though your anger and fear is very understandable (we've all been there) this talk of doing violence to Rawat is inappropriate and might even get you and the site into legal difficulties. You have enough on your plate without that.

Best of luck to you and feel free to express your (nonviolent) feelings here as you see fit.

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Date: Fri, Dec 08, 2000 at 18:57:43 (GMT)
From: RobertB
Email: None
To: GErry
Subject: Nice post Gerry and some good advice
Message:
Ya know, in the cult your advice would be taboo -

People only have personal problems when they don't practice enough

Helping another Human Being through a problem is a waste of time

Even recognizing problems is discouraged

World humger, no problem. Poverty and ignorance, no problem.

(It's certainly no problem for the fool on the hill)

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Date: Sat, Dec 09, 2000 at 19:50:16 (GMT)
From: suchabananer
Email: None
To: RobertB and Gerry
Subject: TiM: no violence; and yes, it's ok to seek help-nt
Message:
nt
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Date: Fri, Dec 08, 2000 at 02:05:24 (GMT)
From: TiM
Email: MahaSamadhi
To: Sir Dave
Subject: Your reply to Pio In Pio
Message:
Your reply is totaly unexpected - that's more beautiful shit than a dead rat has put out in years. But you keep pretending you are still alive. You poor sucker.
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Date: Fri, Dec 08, 2000 at 02:10:31 (GMT)
From: gerry
Email: None
To: TiM
Subject: We still love you
Message:
Dave was just enjoying a little humor.

How about answering my questions:

What proof if any, do you have of Rawat's alleged yogic powers?

And what yogic powers do you have?

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Date: Fri, Dec 08, 2000 at 02:09:50 (GMT)
From: Nick Danger, Third Eye
Email: None
To: TiM
Subject: If Anyone Would Know about
Message:
dead rats and dead assholes, you would. Intimately, no doubt.
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Date: Fri, Dec 08, 2000 at 01:37:19 (GMT)
From: TD
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: An interesting take on the US election stuffup(OT)
Message:
Comments from a Swedish scholar:

1. Imagine that we read of an election occurring anywhere in the third world in which the self-declared winner was the son of the former prime minister and that former prime minister was himself the former head of that nation's secret police (cia).

2. Imagine that the self-declared winner lost the popular vote but won based on some old colonial holdover (electoral college) from the nation's pre-democracy past.

3. Imagine that the self-declared winner's 'victory' turned on disputed votes cast in a province governed by his brother!

4. Imagine that the poorly drafted ballots of one district, a district heavily favoring the self-declared winner's opponent, led thousands of voters to vote for the wrong candidate.

5. Imagine that that members of that nation's most despised caste, fearing for their lives/livelihoods, turned out in record numbers to vote in near-universal opposition to the self-declared winner's candidacy.

6. Imagine that hundreds of members of that most-despised caste were intercepted on their way to the polls by state police operating under the authority of the self-declared winner's brother.

7. Imagine that six million people voted in the disputed province and that the self-declared winner's 'lead' was only 327 votes. Fewer, certainly, than the vote counting machines' margin of error.

8. Imagine that the self-declared winner and his political party opposed a more careful by-hand inspection and re-counting of the ballots in the disputed province or in its most hotly disputed district.

9. Imagine that the self-declared winner, himself a governor of a major province, had the worst human rights record of any province in his nation and actually led the nation in executions.

10. Imagine that a major campaign promise of the self-declared winner was to appoint like-minded human rights violators to lifetime positions on the high court of that nation.

None of us would deem such an election to be representative of anything other than the self-declared winner's will-to-power. All of us, I imagine, would wearily turn the page thinking that it was another sad tale of pitiful pre- or anti-democracy peoples in some strange place elsewhere.'

Okolo Thomas-Toure

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Date: Tues, Dec 12, 2000 at 03:30:25 (GMT)
From: Helen
Email: None
To: TD
Subject: An interesting take on the US election stuffup(OT)
Message:
Exceelent post! I am printing that one out!!
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Date: Tues, Dec 12, 2000 at 06:04:01 (GMT)
From: Stonor
Email: None
To: Helen and TD
Subject: Thanks TD ...
Message:
I shared this with my sister last Friday, and never got around to thanking you for it. Thanks for drawing it to my attention again, Helen!

Did you hear that they're vrditing it to viagra? They've never been able to sustain an election for this long before. (or something like that ;-)

Anna

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Date: Fri, Dec 08, 2000 at 02:25:28 (GMT)
From: Rick
Email: None
To: TD
Subject: That's a good one, TD (nt)
Message:
nt
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Date: Fri, Dec 08, 2000 at 01:30:36 (GMT)
From: TiM
Email: MahaSamadhi
To: Gerry
Subject: Padre Pio In Prison
Message:
The Catholic Church has a book on PadrePio showing the cell where the Church kept Pio under house arrest for ten years. During those ten years Pio prayed and meditated and developed transcendental connection. He could do bilocation. He could induce the stigmata in himself. But he induced the stigmata in the wrong place - in the palms of his hands instead of the wrists. In the wrong place, unless God was having a joke and purposely put the stigmata in Pio's palms instead of wrists to have a little fun with those of little faith. Just as Pio developed his yogic powers, anyone can and Rawat dis and so did Harold Klemp, and Sri Chinmoi. Evidently you didn't. Glad to see you acknowledge you are a dead asshole.
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Date: Fri, Dec 08, 2000 at 01:41:20 (GMT)
From: gerry aka dead asshole
Email: None
To: TiM
Subject: Padre Pio was a religious monastic
Message:
Being a monastic is not the same as being in prison. All monastic bedrooms are called 'cells.'

What proof if any, do you have of Rawat's alleged yogic powers?

And what yogic powers do you have?

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Date: Fri, Dec 08, 2000 at 01:40:34 (GMT)
From: Sir Dave
Email: None
To: TiM
Subject: Padre Pio In Prison
Message:
Wrong. Gerry has 63 yogic powers and I have the other one. I have seen Gerrry in my meditations and prayers and he is nearly all powerful. If only he could get that other yogic power. But I won't let him have it. I'm just mean like that.
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Date: Fri, Dec 08, 2000 at 00:39:10 (GMT)
From: TiM
Email: None
To: Sir Dave And All
Subject: Alternate Univers MaharajJi dumber than Rawat
Message:
I just read Sir Dave's sttement that some other 'maharajJi' was dragged into court on suspicion of murder. How dumb! Rawat simply used his highly developed yogic powers to give a major heart attack to Harld Washington who at that time was mayor of Chicago. It seems Washington was pulling major illegal deals and spouting facist rhetoric in his attempt to upset the balance of power in Chicago. Jessee Jackson was on t.v. with Washington and laughing his Jackson head off at the 'pranks' Washington had pulled. And so, Rawat used his yogic powers by long distance to give Washington a major and lethal heart attack. Who could even suspect such a thing and pull Rawat into court? Yes Rawat does possess highly developed yogic powers. As does SriChinmoi, Harold Klemp, and many other people who have meditated deeply for long periods of time. Example: Padre Pio of the Catholic Church who was imprisoned for ten years and developed yogic powers. I suspect the Reason Rawat doesn't retire as 'Lord' is because the consequence for him of dropping out from the stage of power he has developed would be horrifying in the process of loosing control of such transcendental energy. Why is it that premies and expremies who talk of having practiced knowledge for so long never mention that they themselves have developed such powers? It's real. It should have happened. Probably because in all their asshole ego tripping in the ashrams of DLM they never really got down to meditation. How I hated listening to all thse people vomit in the DLM satsang ashram sessions. Know I know where dead assholes go to. They go the the expremie website.
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Date: Fri, Dec 08, 2000 at 01:37:15 (GMT)
From: Bin Liner
Email: None
To: TiM
Subject: Alternate Univers MaharajJi dumber than Rawat
Message:

Have you got the vote tim ?

I just hope you're one of the many who doesn't use it.

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Date: Fri, Dec 08, 2000 at 01:09:24 (GMT)
From: gerry
Email: None
To: TiM
Subject: You're wrong about Padre Pio,
Message:
so you might want to consider you are wrong about Rawat.

Padre Pio was not in prison, unless you consider the monastery to be a prison. A quick internet search will confirm this for yourself.

-ada
(a dead asshole)

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Date: Fri, Dec 08, 2000 at 00:56:55 (GMT)
From: Sir Dave
Email: None
To: TiM
Subject: Alternate Univers MaharajJi dumber than Rawat
Message:
So now you're here so does that mean you're a dead asshole too?

No but seriously now, Maharaji's yogic powers? Deep meditation? Trancendental state? Are you talking about the same guy???

Maharaji has about as much yogic power as a toenail clipping. And really, the only yogic 'power' that trancendental yogi's have is the power to disappear up their own backsides.

Heart attacks happen all the time. They're caused by clogged up coronary arteries. Nothing yogic about it.

.. Dave

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Date: Thurs, Dec 07, 2000 at 23:26:58 (GMT)
From: brian
Email: bgsmith@teleport.com
To: Everyone
Subject: perimeter of chaos
Message:
I look back over the 28 years since I was first introduced to DLM and M and its seems as if now as it did then that there was a perimeter of choas surrounding M and the message that he was delivering. It was in New York just before departing to India in 72 that I discovered that there were other sources of the techniques. Nevertheless, it made no difference to me that there are/were other masters, other ways to self realization. I realized and acknowledged that this is the way (M) that this had come to me and so that was my path and my opportunity. The knowledge itself, when I use it has always had a positive and beneficial effect on me and my life. I do not regret having taken advantage of the meditation techniques and will continue to practice them for the rest of my life. I have learned to rely on my own experience and understanding. In the early days, when some of the fanatical premies were giving me directives on the correct way to
practice knowledge, to be 'Blissed Out' I checked out my our experience and if it wasn't relative, I called Bullshit! I have continued on my own journey at my own pace and I have enriched my life with the ability to meditate in the way that was shown to me. I have also had the chance to develop many friendships and experiences along the way that I cherish. I accept complete responsibility for my own life and for buying into the whole Guru thing, I also know that I can throw the thing out as well. That is the beauty of it all, and I blame no-one for leading me on. I will always have my own choice available every second. I have from day one looked more at what is going on within and depended a lot less on what other people including Maharaji do. I like very much what I discover inside, that is my guide. I can also appreciate engaging and enjoying the drama that usually can be found going on around everyone and everything in life. That is also my choice and one that I will continually make and accept responsibility for as well. As always, I got what I asked for, a chance to go inside, an opportunity for self realization. The perimeter of Chaos continues to swirl, and somewhere within all of that there is peace.
They seem to need each other ......

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Date: Sat, Dec 09, 2000 at 04:33:29 (GMT)
From: Cynthia
Email: None
To: brian
Subject: perimeter of chaos...Choice
Message:
Hi Brian,

I loved your post. I don't know you, but I grokked what you said. It is both honest and daring for you to post that. My reaction was that it sounds as if you have forgiven M. But I don't know you so, have you? If you have, (and even though it's a very Christian concept) congratulations!!! Forgiveness is a wierd thing, don't you think? I rather think of it as a sort of release. When it happens, something changes. It's like breaking out of a deep grief, which grief caused such pain.

However, I don't see myself forgiving Maharaji too soon. And I think that's the reaction you got.

I say Great! We're all in the same book but on different pages. Shit! I just sounded like Maharaji. I hate that, when it happens. Shit. Shit. Shit.

I have concluded so far that everything, probably, just about, except for a shit load of things, is a choice. I don't know about fate, but sometimes I believe in it. I can't dictate every second's activity like choose if I will or won't fall on the ice again,:)).

If I will get to see some Northern Lights this year, I will howl at the sky. Totally unpredictable, and when they happen and you're there to see them happen, a total joy comes up. Nature. Chaos? I don't care. I've come to see that it's a choice how I deal with stuff during my day to day life. I'm not perfect, and won't ever expect myself to be perfect again. That, is a day to day practice, no thanks to Maharaji. What I chose for my life when my life became unbearable was to heal from the wounds of my life. All of them? Never. But I'm learning how to be an adult and accept responsibility for the things I do today and tomorrow not just yesterday. And try not to be hard on myself or others, except for sometimes, because I'm not perfect.

I don't blame myself for the whole Maharaji thing in my life though I do see the vulnerabilities I had when I entered. I am not beyond his betray, and have great interest in watching his cult. I shall blame him until I die, for doing nothing about Jagdeo. I'm sorry for ramblin on and on.

Beautiful prose, Brian,
Cynthia

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Date: Sat, Dec 09, 2000 at 09:13:06 (GMT)
From: brian
Email: None
To: Cynthia
Subject: perimeter of chaos...Choice
Message:
Thank you Cynthia, yes I forgive Maharaji, he basically is doing what he has been trained to do from birth. And I have to say that he does it well, he is amoung other things a truly gifted orator and salesman. Why do I forgive him? because I bought what he was selling! I raised my hand and said, I will take that which you are offering, and no-one twisted my arm to do it. That is where my choice in the matter comes in. There are choices that we make consciously and there are subconscious choices that run us and cause reactions in our lives that we cannot always explain. I cannot explain to you how I got to this point of forgiveness, and I am quite sure that based on your experience, my story would not remedy your pain. I will tell you this much, that what ever I did on both a conscious and sub conscious level has truly liberated me. I do feel better, And I do feel that it all comes back to my choice, what I needed at the time I got knowledge, and to the many choices and needs that have changed over the years. Am I bitter? No.... not at all, and I consciously forgive M and even myself which believe it or not, is even harder, You cannot force yourself to do what you do not want to do. It will backfire, and I sense that you are being kind to yourself, So please continue to be good to yourself, and not be hard on yourself, you have made a conscious choice to heal and that is what is happening, that is a start. I appreciate your response
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Date: Sat, Dec 09, 2000 at 18:57:35 (GMT)
From: cq
Email: None
To: brian
Subject: you forgive him because you bought his con?
Message:
Brian (and I take it you're another person by that name, and not the same Brian who set up ex-premie.org and who has always posted under that name?)

You say: 'Why do I forgive him? because I bought what he was selling! I raised my hand and said, I will take that which you are offering, and no-one twisted my arm to do it ...'

Remember that it wasn't just the 'Knowledge' that we got when we raised our hands to recieve it. He was also 'selling' his own supposed divinity, 'Lord of the Universe' 'That Superior Power in Person' no less.


Now he claims that he never said he was God (see Elan Vital's site for a video clip of him actually saying this at http://www.elanvital.org/faq_opposing_views.htm)

Can you forgive him for such a blatant lie?

If so, how?

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Date: Mon, Dec 11, 2000 at 22:49:37 (GMT)
From: brian too
Email: None
To: cq
Subject: you forgive him because you bought his con?
Message:
Sorry for not getting back sooner, Yes I do forgive M, I forgive the premies and I forgive myself. For everything, I am not grinding any more axes with anyone. In the last couple of days I have actually reaquainted myself with my committment to practice knowledge. My response a couple of days ago might have been different, After a few inquiries here I have changed my mind and that is what I want to do. I cannot be of any help about how to give forgiveness. Whenever or if ever you get around to it you will just do it, no instructions needed.
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Date: Tues, Dec 12, 2000 at 18:53:34 (GMT)
From: cq
Email: None
To: brian too
Subject: I see. But what you call 'forgiveness' sounds more
Message:
... sounds more like avoidance of the issues. It's your choice, 'Brian too', but I hope you can see that you're only postponing facing questions that your subconscious is going to keep throwing back at you, until you manage to resolve this.

The issue of Maharaji's denials on the EV website portraying him as a blatant liar does need resolving. And by choosing to run away from that issue, you make it all the more clear just how dangerous you consider it to be - to your allegiance, your trust, your pride, your ability to have faith in the power of your own judgement.

Becoming free of Maharaji is not an easy journey. And I can understand how much safer it feels to sweep all these difficult questions (and they are difficult to resolve) back under the carpet.

If it's been a harsh wake-up call that some posters on this Forum have given you, it's because the defences that the premie belief-system (belief about WHO Maharaji is, rather than about whether or not the meditation is beneficial) - those defences that kick in to protect your image of what/who M is - they NEED to be confronted, if you're to regain your own independence.

And from what you say, at the moment that sounds like it's a big if.

But best of luck, anyway.

Chris

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Date: Fri, Dec 08, 2000 at 19:31:55 (GMT)
From: Bobby
Email: None
To: brian
Subject: discovered on a search for the meaning of.....
Message:
....magical thinking.

Much Madness is divinest Sense --
To a discerning Eye --
Much Sense -- the starkest Madness --
'Tis the Majority
In this, as All, prevail --
Assent -- and you are sane --
Demur -- you're straightway dangerous --
and handled with a Chain --
Emily Dickinson

I'm with Emily

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Date: Fri, Dec 08, 2000 at 20:52:29 (GMT)
From: Way
Email: None
To: Bobby
Subject: on magical thinking and Emily
Message:
Bobby,

First off, I adore Emily. I have several books of her works and life, and often one of her poems in the last thing in my day. No one puts me in awe as she does with her higher perspective so brilliantly and beautifully brought down into words.

However, that leaves open the discussion about when the higher wisdom becomes misappropriated to aspects of our Earthly existence. The human attempt to apply the purity of higher spheres to all physical activity is one of the scourges of religion. And there are many!

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Date: Sat, Dec 09, 2000 at 12:33:19 (GMT)
From: Bobby
Email: None
To: Way
Subject: on magical thinking and Emily
Message:
I think I agree.

I always liked Joseph Campbell's phrasing 'historicizing the sacred', a form of attempting to grasp the divine.

Then there's the shamanic dilemma of living in two worlds. How does one effectively maintain the apparent separate integrities of the sublime and the mundane? It seems there are answers to that in some religions, definitely in Tibetan Buddhism.

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Date: Fri, Dec 08, 2000 at 16:17:59 (GMT)
From: Way
Email: None
To: brian
Subject: perimeter of chaos
Message:
brian,

I am a bit perplexed about many of the statements you make. You seem to be expressing a lot of magical thinking:

You accept complete responsibility for your own life??? Examine that statement carefully. Surely you don't mean it as it stands. I think a bit of a rewrite is required.

You blame no one for leading you on??? And you call that beautiful? I would call that unexamined, and not fully informed. But do you mean that no-one led you on, or that you don't fault them even though they did? And do you apply this to both fellow premies and the guru. I'm perplexed.

You will always have your own choice available every second??? How is this statement to be understood, as it stands? Does it refer to a certain choice, if so, which one?

You got what you asked for, a chance to go inside? If that's what you wanted, I'd say you got a little more than what you asked for. Don't we all have the opportunity for self-realization, completely irrespective of Mr. Rawat and those four particular techniques?

As always, you got what you asked for? As always?! You mean to claim that you always get what you ask for? Really?

Forgive me if I am only nitpicking with your way of writing. But if you actually mean to say what you in fact say, I must respond that you have your heard in the clouds and your feet several inches above the ground. Come back to Earth, it's not so bad!

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Date: Fri, Dec 08, 2000 at 19:43:13 (GMT)
From: brian
Email: None
To: Way
Subject: perimeter of chaos
Message:
I agree that you are perplexed, and your perplexity is not my responsibility to clear up. I stand at face value for whatever statements I made, and I could care less about how many holes you can find to poke into them. So what that there are many. And that is the ugly truth.......
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Date: Fri, Dec 08, 2000 at 20:27:31 (GMT)
From: way
Email: None
To: brian
Subject: sorry, brian
Message:
brian,

I admit that my response to your first post was confrontational, and I apologize if I have offended you to the point that you do not wish to continue the conversation. I really am sorry, because I appreciated you posting your message here, and I do not want to scare anyone away from this Forum.

But I made my comments because they represent very interesting points. For instance, the question of personal responsibility for one's life. This is an interesting topic of discussion for ex-premies. What responsibility should we assign to Mr. Rawat for misquiding us? You deliver him from all blame, and I really object to that.

There is also the more general issue between us about magical thinking. I think there are some 'New-Age' sentiments that should be challenged. This is also an issue between Bobby and I. I see that he has made a post in its favor, and I will respond when I get done here. But first I have to repeat my apology for bluntly describing your feelings as having your head in the clouds. That was rude and counterproductive to welcoming you to the discussion.

Having said that, dare I make a fresh objection? - 'ugly truth' is an oxymoron.

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Date: Sun, Dec 10, 2000 at 05:27:52 (GMT)
From: brian
Email: None
To: way
Subject: sorry, brian
Message:
Thank you Way, I accept your apology and I appreciate your forthright sentiments. I want to acknowledge you for extending to me the invitation to participate in this inquiry. You need not worry about scaring me off, I am not looking for agreement or acceptance here. To respond to your question about m's responsibility, As hard as it is to accept, One cannot assign responsibility to to another, you can point it out, not that it matters to the responsible party in question. The best way that I have found to deal with it is to own up to my responsibility. If my neck is stretched out on the tracks when the 5:15 rolls across it, I am the turkey that put it there. Is that so hard to see?
And yes Ugly Truth is an oxymoron, good call
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Date: Mon, Dec 11, 2000 at 05:33:59 (GMT)
From: gerry
Email: None
To: brian
Subject: groovy, now how about responding to suchabanana
Message:
You play fast and loose with words and logic, fella. How about tackling Such's post?

, As hard as it is to accept, One cannot assign responsibility to to another, you can point it out, not that it matters to the responsible party in question.

This is meaningless. You can point it out, but can't 'assign' it? Poppycock. God, infuriatingly stupid word games that mean nothing.

Now how 'bout Such's post?

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Date: Mon, Dec 11, 2000 at 09:02:37 (GMT)
From: brian
Email: None
To: gerry
Subject: groovy, now how about responding to suchabanana
Message:
Thanks Gerry, I did respond to suchabana, check it out, Sat Dec 9th 2000 00:10:34 if the way is within etc, under brian.
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Date: Mon, Dec 11, 2000 at 20:23:14 (GMT)
From: cq
Email: None
To: brian
Subject: ... and how about responding to me?
Message:
From this very thread:

Date: Sat, Dec 09, 2000 at 18:57:35
From: cq
Email: None
To: brian
Subject: you forgive him because you bought his con?

Message:

Brian (and I take it you're another person by that name, and not the same Brian who set up
ex-premie.org and who has always posted under that name?)

You say: 'Why do I forgive him? because I bought what he was selling! I raised my
hand and said, I will take that which you are offering, and no-one twisted my arm to
do it ...'

Remember that it wasn't just the 'Knowledge' that we got when we raised our hands to
recieve it. He was also 'selling' his own supposed divinity, 'Lord of the Universe' 'That
Superior Power in Person' no less.

Now he claims that he never said he was God (see Elan Vital's site for a video clip of him
actually saying this at http://www.elanvital.org/faq_opposing_views.htm)

Can you forgive him for such a blatant lie?

If so, how?

Well, brian,

if so,

how?

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Date: Mon, Dec 11, 2000 at 20:41:05 (GMT)
From: Steve Quint
Email: the_avenger55@hotmail.com
To: cq and everyone
Subject: Barf Bag Alert
Message:
I found the clip. It's amazing.

Get the barf bag ready and watch him squirm.

Steve

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Date: Fri, Dec 08, 2000 at 14:30:07 (GMT)
From: Bobby
Email: None
To: brian
Subject: chaos mandala
Message:
Funny, the 'perimeter of chaos' you describe is akin to the symbolic imagery of one of the Buddhist Tantra mandalas. In that representation, the Deity (projection of our own Mind) dances amidst a vast landscape of life and death events, including charnel grounds. The Deity herself is surrounded by the 'fire of Aeon' and her mandala is marked at the perimeters by little swirling vortices of chaotic energy.

Wildness is always at the borders. The key is to ground in love and compassion.

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Date: Fri, Dec 08, 2000 at 05:15:09 (GMT)
From: suchabanana
Email: None
To: brian
Subject: If the way is within, M's irrelevant for the wise!
Message:
Dear Brian,

Remember that a lot of that chaos was actually created at the organizational core (not at the perimeter) -- by Prem, his fucked-up greedy family (including him), his infernal perpetual scams and never-ending pleas for his money org machine, and the superstitious concepts and dogma he and his dupes ritualized and fed everybody - to serve him and his never-ending material appetites.

Meditation is fine - but only if you like it. Some of the exes here eschew it, while others (like me) still chew it.

If Prem wanted to spread knowledge to millions of people, he wouldn't have solicited and hoarded most of the money for himself. He wouldn't have lied - and acted like he alone owned your fucking insides and soul and the spiritual key. With the literally hundreds of millions of dollars that have been donated over the years, those same techniques could have already been spread by experienced meditator-instructors to tens of millions of people. (Parasite Raja ji is an instructor - what a joke!)

No, Prem diverted most of the money for himself. He's a fraud, in that respect. He does not deserve our respect - let alone devotion. I was a devoted follower of Prem (and insider) for almost 30 years, too, until I realized the extent to which Prem has patently abused the trust of the premies and aspirants, and he and EVI have lied and spin-doctored to perpetuate his worldly power trip -- instead of coming clean, like Krishnamurti did.

Techniques are just techniques - but the experience within has nothing to do with him - it's yours alone, brian. He's irrelevant now, because he knowingly abused the truth. The Rawat family line comes from the Singhs (from the Sikh tradition), and it was the Sikhs who promulgated the dynastic appropriation and hoarding of others' yogic practices and truths.

If the experience is within you, it's yours - not his. If the techniques are old, then they also predate him. Other people reveal some of the same meditations - it is known that his dad collected them from several teachers, too. It is also now known that Rawat's dad was not even the person designated by Sarupanand to succeed him as guru.

The Rawat family added the Krishna crown and claims, the perversion of genuine altruistic guru traditions, and the self-serving money machine - which they bitterly fought over in court in India, UK, and USA. Now Bubblegum ji (SatPal) and lil' bro fat-ass are setting up their own families to continue the profitable charade. Usurping the teachings of monastic yogis for worldly power over naive sheep followers.

I say: enjoy the meditation - if you actually do sit down and really do it daily (or whenever). Not like, oh yeah, I'm on 'Holy Name' all day cruising around at my job (or whatever). Some of the most fanatical premies in denial I know are the very people who haven't been sitting down and meditating every day for all those years. Many of them believe in a lazy myth - that Prem has some kind of power over their experience, and that they are saved just because they have knowledge and think he and it is the key, and are devoted to him.

The truth is, Prem doesn't have a clue about your personal experience. Truthfully, when's the last time he personally guided you into samadhi? You don't need him -- in fact, he's an obstacle to anybody's spirituality, at this point (because he has lied; his so-called knowledge comes with strings attached to him, him, him and his selfish piggy trip). Deluded or whatever, he fucked up and he dares not cop to the fraud -- the money machine would stop. He lied in the way that he and his family have misrepresented simple meditation techniques to accrue material benefit and worldly power to themselves. He is irrelevant to your spirituality -- and believing in him, the individual or as a guru now, is an obstacle that obstructs one's spiritual progress and the truth of existence.

So, let's proceed from here, in truth. That's the ticket. Not Prem's and EVI's spin-doctored thorny thicket of time-worn misrepresentations, and the blame he's laid on everyone else -- to evade responsibility and distract us from the fact that the buck with every fucked-up thing with him and in his organization stops with Prem himself:
The homocidal assault on Pat Halley (Rawat's responsible for what his organization agents did, with his knowledge), the sexual abuse of dozens of premie children by Jagdeo (Prem knew and wouldn't deal with it), the thousands of ashram premies thrown out on the street after generating hundreds of millions of dollars for him (because he didn't want to provide health care or for their eventual retirement), the diversion of tens of millions of dollars of donations for his exclusive tax-free personal benefit (yacht, planes, luxury cars, mansions, accounts, corporations, etc.), the spiritual superstitions and lies he has promoted and perpetuated to enthrone and benefit himself and his position, and so forth.

This site is a wake-up call, brian. This site is truly providing a service, this forum contains the company of people who speak from the truth of their experiences, and you can still meditate all you want: without Prem, his boring videos (many of us here could give you the same mellow nebulous rap he gives - or better), the insipid muzak EVI calls music, the millions in donations diverted to him (not to propagation; but a little propagation for show in the videos feeds the money machine). How many people in West Africa are really crying out for Prem and to receive knowledge? Not very many at all, or elsewhere (except India, where He still presents himself like he did in the 70s, which contradicts the EVI website claims). The participation vids are candy-coated propaganda sound-bites and clips. It's utter bullshit -- the big bucks go to feed fatso and his clan.

Prem personally destroyed the premie communities to focus everything on himself (were we so misguided? bullshit), he destroyed the growth and satsang of his own devotees (lots of potential competition - like his dad was, to the real successor of Sarupanand), the satellite feeds are just another money-grubbing tool to feed his ego-power and money trip.

Surrender the reins of your precious life to a single person, Prem? Really?! How about, just surrender to God within (if you would). In God we trust, all others pay cash. Well, Prem's had an entire lifetime of prepping for and feeding off this deluded trip. It's time he paid cash, too. After all, he's got the big big mega-bucks now. Everything Prem owns he basically owes to the premies. Every fucking thing. And what gratitude and appreciation has he shown to the premies? He shits all over his premies. So, fuck false materialist gurus who live a lie, debase the truth for their own power, milk fortunes and shit on their devotees.

As others here can vouch, I usually don't use such strong language, but Prem and his spin doctors abused my sincere trust for almost 30 years. I sacrificed so many things in my life for the sake of being his premie. What has he ever sacrificed for anyone? Nothing. Nothing at all.

Does Prem invite or allow dialogue on his official org sites? NO. Even enjoyinglife is censored and edited for political correctness. Like it or not, this forum is the only place on the internet where past and current premies and aspirants are expressing themselves openly and freely. The truth shall set you free.

Peace,

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Date: Sat, Dec 09, 2000 at 19:20:32 (GMT)
From: cq
Email: None
To: all
Subject: ***BEST OF*** (we still have a best of, J-M?) (nt)
Message:
Spoken like it is, Such, thanks.
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Date: Sat, Dec 09, 2000 at 10:08:58 (GMT)
From: JTF
Email: None
To: suchabanana
Subject: meditation habits of rawat cult members
Message:
Hi-

Thanks for your post.
I can say that the vast majority of rawat cult members I know have just done the minimum amount of medition(now known as practice)agyad by fatso....one would think that if it is so good then--------?

Even when I was trapped in the cult, I always wondered about this...now, I'm left wondering if the amount I used to do affected my brain chemistry!

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Date: Sat, Dec 09, 2000 at 08:10:34 (GMT)
From: brian
Email: None
To: suchabanana
Subject: If the way is within, M's irrelevant for the wise!
Message:
Thanks,
I really appreciate your response suchabanana, It is even more revelant and significant particularly coming from the level of devotion and service that you must have mustered up over a thirty year time frame. I am assuming that you were at one point quite zealous in your commitment. It means alot to me and oviously to others that you would take the time to render such a thoughtful and insightful response to my post.
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Date: Mon, Dec 11, 2000 at 16:16:14 (GMT)
From: gerry
Email: None
To: brian
Subject: You call that an answer ???
Message:
Well, Suchabanana's post to you is in almost total opposition to your vacuous drivel and this silly obsequious post does nothing to answer the pointed challenges to you new age excreta.
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Date: Fri, Dec 08, 2000 at 23:43:19 (GMT)
From: Bin Liner
Email: None
To: suchabanana
Subject: I keep coming here Such....
Message:
....... to read stuff like that.

Thanks for taking the time to write it.

Being betrayed by the 'lord ' is a major kick in the head , isn't it .

Speaking of heads reminds me of the saying ' uneasy lies the head that wears the crown'.

You mention Rawat's crown.

I think his crown , gold , studded with precious stones,its provenance,manufacture,tax status in India & elsewhere, could be the key to his downfall.

Maybe someone with serious balls knows something ?

In the meantime Such , I'm with you on the path.

Give up believing that love is eternal ?...... Never.

FUCK YOU RAWAT: WHERE DID YOU GET ALL THAT SHIT YOU WORE ON YOUR HEAD FROM.

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Date: Fri, Dec 08, 2000 at 22:21:40 (GMT)
From: Robyn
Email: None
To: suchabanana
Subject: If the way is within, M's irrelevant for the wise!
Message:
Dear Such,
Great post, seems like it was good for you to get that all out. I don't have much time to read here but belive you when you say you don't usually use such strong language, didn't think it was near as bad as some I've read here anyway but since you don't usually I hope that doing so, getting it out was good for you.
Love,
Robyn
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Date: Fri, Dec 08, 2000 at 18:16:05 (GMT)
From: Hal
Email: None
To: suchabanana
Subject: Great post Such- thanks nt
Message:
hxd
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Date: Fri, Dec 08, 2000 at 15:24:39 (GMT)
From: gerry
Email: None
To: suchabanana
Subject: Powerful, insightful, truthful, such, thanks(nt)
Message:
nt
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Date: Fri, Dec 08, 2000 at 02:50:20 (GMT)
From: hamzen
Email: None
To: brian
Subject: What can one say,but bully for you?
Message:
You sound a lot clearer than me,

I'm open for ideas if you've got any about that

Yet after all that responsibility chaos continues to swirl, and somewhere within all that swirling there's a really good vibe,
I thought that was called living,
living and learning and loving and loathing and loafing
blah de blah........

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Date: Thurs, Dec 07, 2000 at 23:42:53 (GMT)
From: TiM
Email: None
To: brian
Subject: perimeter of chaos
Message:
Lucky you that you never discovered how insanely dangerous M's knowlege is seeing that he is only one-half of a Rodhami master.
Unfortunately I did discover how dangerous a half guru's knowledge is. And I don't see why that premie who wants to push M down a flight of stairs is waiting for the right synchronicity to make it happen. The future is brightest when we stop waiting for providence and take things in our own hands. Did any premie ever receive balistics training in the military?
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Date: Thurs, Dec 07, 2000 at 23:57:07 (GMT)
From: gerry
Email: None
To: TiM
Subject: Rodhami? FA take note
Message:
Look Tim, these thinly veiled threats just aren't gonna fly here so stop it now. This is completely out of line.

Are you trying to get us shut down?

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Date: Fri, Dec 08, 2000 at 00:10:41 (GMT)
From: Marianne
Email: None
To: FA
Subject: FA: threats in this thread, please delete-nt
Message:
xxxxx
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Date: Thurs, Dec 07, 2000 at 19:23:07 (GMT)
From: gerry
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: Oh Jim, look what you are missing...
Message:
By Jim's favorite premie poet, the ineffable Janice Wilson:

My breath is full of happiness;
discovering.
I am reborn anew, fresh each day
in the world of the breath:
discovering.
My heart is so alive, happy, joyous:
discovering.
This Knowledge takes me in
to where the most exciting thing is happening:
rejoicing.
Inside, jumping up and down with delight
while my body is perfectly still:
rejoicing.
With the pulse of life flowing through me:
rejoicing.
Knowing the master knows how blissed out I'll be
when I discover the freedom contained within my heart:
celebrating.
The gift of life, life with my heart:
celebrating
Life with the Knowledge of happiness:
celebrating
with the one who gives the gift
of the endless celebration of life.

Well la-te-da, Janice. Does your mother know you talk this way?

And then there's this little cult gem:

Eleni Kyriakopoulou: For my master
Written on 5 December from Athens, Greece


Today I am 52 years old
As I look out from the window of my mind
I am overwhelmed with gratitude.
You have given me the highest gift that a human being can get in a life.
Through you I was reborn.
Through you I feel truly alive.
You have given me what nobody else gave me.
Not my mother.
Not my father.
Not my family.
Not my friends.
And you asked nothing in return only that I do what is best for me.
You are there when I turn my back on you, and you are there when I return.
Always kind, always compassionate, always understanding, always ready to shower me with your precious gift.
There is nothing more I want in this life.

Isn't that sad? Here's a woman 52 years old, spouting this puerile drivel you might expect from a love sick thirteen year old. Truly disconcerting, to me anyway.

And finally, for those who haven't yet run screaming from their computer is this little prose tidbit from

Magdeline Sodberberg: Commitment to excellence
From Eureka, California

It would be almost easy to take the satellite broadcast events for granted. There are no glitches in the transmissions even though most of the work is done by volunteers. Nowhere else have I experienced so much care and commitment towards excellence by ordinary people.

Actually when I started watching the broadcast today ( 3 December) that familiar voice in my head said: 'But you know all this already.' However it was another spectacular video by Dunrite Productions. (It is exciting to see names of people I know in the credits. Actually I have been considering buying an Apple computer with iMovie 2.0.1 and then getting proficient enough do some volunteering at Visions International.)

What I loved most in the video today was the shots of Maharaji as a boy, especially the one of him on stage right next to his father and master all wrapped up in his chair, snoozing. What an incredible contrast to him at the helm of a plane in his captain's uniform looking really sharp and unbelievably handsome.

The next event will be on his birthday and I hope to celebrate with other lovers of truth, consciousness and bliss.

Can't wait...

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Date: Sat, Dec 09, 2000 at 03:35:19 (GMT)
From: Deputy Dog
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: Ok, so I like Jim.
Message:
And my posts yesterday were a juvenile attempt to goad him back into the fold. And I was censored, but so what!

And why wouldn't I want Jim back posting here. He's smart, astute, ingenious, deft, adroit, shrewd, sharp, witty, crafty, and vulpine.

Maybe he could post here now and then. Just a thought. Not in your face 24/7, but now and then, you know like a normal person.

But no! With Jim it has to be all or nothing.

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Date: Fri, Dec 08, 2000 at 03:55:27 (GMT)
From: Bazza
Email: None
To: Magdeline and others
Subject: JSCA...where do I plug this in?
Message:
It would be almost easy to take the satellite broadcast events for granted. There are no glitches in the transmissions even though most of the work is done by volunteers. Nowhere else have I experienced so much care and commitment towards excellence by ordinary people.

Actually when I started watching the broadcast today ( 3 December) that familiar voice in my head said: 'But you know all this already.' However it was another spectacular video by Dunrite Productions. (It is exciting to see names of people I know in the credits. Actually I have been considering buying an Apple computer with iMovie 2.0.1 and then getting proficient enough do some volunteering at Visions International.)

Magdeline, if only you knew.....

First up, the satellite transmissions are provided by hired professional contractors - (DISH Network.. you know, the big logo on that oversize frisby on your roof?) and most of the 'head-end' equipment is rented and set up by, you guessed it, hired professional contractors. And I'll let you in on a little secret - most of those professional contractors think you are fucking weird, and for the most part wished you'd all get out of the way and let them get on with their work. And stop nit-picking over dimes ('if we use our own crappy amplifier, can we get $50 off the bill?'). AND PULLEASE....stop telling them how maharaji is a really special person and this all has to be sooooo perfect for Him.

As a video professional myself, I had one foot in each camp. I was 'volunteering' sometimes, other times I was hired by those contractors who were my regular clients anyway. Working with blissful volunteers like yourself, Magdeline, used to piss me off so badly.

Talk about inept, cack-handed happy-clappers.....there was usually more time wasted 'being in THAT feeling' than actually getting the gig together. I'd set up the video projector and run an m. tape to tweak up the signal path and all work would stop. People would sink to a soppy squat on the floor with their hands clasped in fawning (and usually fake) expressions of devotion, and I'm, like, 'can we get the fucking equipment set up THEN act like gopis?'.

Sometimes I'd come in and part of the system was already rigged, and I'd look at it and see that it was all pretty screwy and just waiting for a failure to happen. But say something and up reared those monstrous Productions Honcho egos, so desparate to protect their pathetic little status in maharaji's dreamworld, and I'd just back off smiling and hold my hands up. Have it your way, Brother Volunteer, I just do this for a living, thats all, what do I know? I'd go join the rest of the frustrated contractors in the coffee room and pretend like I wasn't 'one of them'

I guess that was when I began to realize I really WASN'T one of you, the fog had started to lift (this would be about a year ago, BTW). Thank God, eh?

So Magdeline, you can eulogise all you want about Dungheap Productions, and well, maybe you haven't experienced so much care and commitment towards excellence by ordinary people, but then you probably don't get out much. How could you, you're in a cult.

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Date: Fri, Dec 08, 2000 at 12:15:16 (GMT)
From: Steve M
Email: None
To: Bazza
Subject: Thanks for a great post Bazza nt
Message:
nt
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Date: Fri, Dec 08, 2000 at 03:06:54 (GMT)
From: hamzen
Email: None
To: gerry
Subject: It's hard to believe sometimes isn't it,
Message:
that we were involved in such a shambolic and patently obvious cult,

the happy clapper positive thinking deny all negativity in my life and it may go away,
reeking of an unfulfilled need for self esteem,
a self esteem that most people happily neogtiate
without all the cult superscructure,
just so obvious.

You'd also think that if this experience was so unique and individual that there would be no hint of stepford wives at all, yet all of those posts reek of it

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Date: Fri, Dec 08, 2000 at 01:48:29 (GMT)
From: Deputy Dog
Email: None
To: gerry
Subject: Jim is too cowardly to ever post here again
Message:
That's right, he's too much of a coward to ever post here again. Did you hear that Jim? Too cowardly!!!!
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Date: Fri, Dec 08, 2000 at 02:55:33 (GMT)
From: hamzen
Email: None
To: Deputy Dog
Subject: Yopu truly are a sad fucker
Message:
get a life for fucks sake mate,
the script's so shallow
it's embarrassing to have to point it out to an adult,
which was MY assumption,
maybe I'm wrong.
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Date: Fri, Dec 08, 2000 at 03:06:35 (GMT)
From: Deputy Dog
Email: None
To: hamzen
Subject: What? I'm not I follow you hamzen
Message:
adf
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Date: Fri, Dec 08, 2000 at 03:12:00 (GMT)
From: Deputy Dog
Email: None
To: All
Subject: Sorry! Should read . .
Message:
'I'm not sure if I follow you hamzen.'

Which is worth more, a crowd of thousands,
or your own genuine solitude?
Freedom, or power over an entire nation?

A little while alone in your room
will prove more valuable than anything else
that could ever be given you.

Rumi

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Date: Fri, Dec 08, 2000 at 03:31:03 (GMT)
From: hamzen
Email: None
To: Deputy Dog
Subject: That's complete bollox
Message:
Anything can be the best thing ever, pilling it up, shagging a tree, wistfully contemplating, dancing, especially dancing,
everything's a buzz,

who wants to sit contemplating their own navel,

there's so many great people out there.

I'm even more certain you need to get out more and get a life,

you can go so far up your own arse you know that you run out of daylight,
but I'd recommend a bath, then get out
and learn from others if you need to be so po-faced 'spiritual' about it, you don't know anything that any other human being in the world needs no pointing out on,
and there's no premie who's any more perfect in their practice,

I reckon it's all about needing to feel xtra special,
this cult shit,
covering over the obvious inadequacies and insecurities and wrapping it in some mystery magic juju walt disney, and they all lived happily everafter shit
don't forget doing sport, flirting, making music,

Laughing,
having the piss taken out of youre pretensions by others, and with a laugh
cause in the end we're all posers to some degree or another

And that's why I know gm's a fraud, he never has, and he never will take the piss out of himself, and he certainly wouldn't be able to tolerate somebody else taking the piss out of him, he'd have to have the last laugh, like that fuck off video to that instructor in malaysia,
just so predictable
he'd be a shit poker player I reckon, you only have to listen to the music he produces, so lifeless, even for a genre that is already pretty lifeless.

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Date: Fri, Dec 08, 2000 at 01:55:14 (GMT)
From: gerry
Email: None
To: Deputy Dog
Subject: You're too cowardly to give your name
Message:
So what do you think of the stuff your fellow cult members are bleated on ELK, DEPUTY DOG?
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Date: Fri, Dec 08, 2000 at 02:08:28 (GMT)
From: Deputy Dog
Email: None
To: gerry
Subject: Not cowardly just prudent!
Message:
Not my cup of tea! It's impossible not to find premies who turn one off, who seem to be neurotic, timid saps. The thing is one's own experience of Knowledge.

Most of friends are non premies, and they can't get enough of me.

But what about that Jim not posting here. I think he's yella not to, just plain yella.

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Date: Fri, Dec 08, 2000 at 02:58:01 (GMT)
From: hamzen
Email: None
To: Deputy Dog
Subject: Could you put me straight
Message:
I'm not sure I get what the difference is between what you call knowledge, and what I call living?
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Date: Fri, Dec 08, 2000 at 04:30:01 (GMT)
From: Cynthia
Email: None
To: hamzen
Subject: Truly Tasteless and....Funny....(nt)
Message:
kk
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Date: Fri, Dec 08, 2000 at 03:03:08 (GMT)
From: Deputy Dog
Email: None
To: hamzen
Subject: Could you put me straight
Message:
Seems like you got it hamzen. No need for me to put you straight.
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Date: Fri, Dec 08, 2000 at 03:08:46 (GMT)
From: hamzen
Email: None
To: Deputy Dog
Subject: So what's the big deal then?? (nt)
Message:
a
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Date: Fri, Dec 08, 2000 at 03:13:30 (GMT)
From: Deputy Dog
Email: None
To: hamzen
Subject: So what's the big deal then? Exactly! (nt)
Message:
Mu
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Date: Fri, Dec 08, 2000 at 03:38:00 (GMT)
From: hamzen
Email: None
To: Deputy Dog
Subject: But if it's no big deal,
Message:
the techniques are bog standard,
and it's about being alive to the moment as much as possible,
well everybody I know's like that, and none of them needed to even sniff a cult, letalone prop up their insecurities, and in what?,

a master who is a master in no big deal, who was once lord of the universe, and as he made explicit, still is, on odd occasions when he thinks the cameras aren't around,

sorry dog, but it all smells of desperation

do you believe you've taken on any baggage over the years in being a premie?

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Date: Fri, Dec 08, 2000 at 04:07:23 (GMT)
From: Deputy dog
Email: None
To: hamzen
Subject: But if it's no big deal,
Message:
sorry dog, but it all smells of desperation

do you believe you've taken on any baggage over the years in being a premie?

Not as much as most of the exes who post here, but probably.

I've always seen the practice of Knowledge as wiping the slate clean. Probably a trait picked up in my iconoclastic hippie days. To me, being a true premie means having as little baggage as possible.

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Date: Fri, Dec 08, 2000 at 02:17:19 (GMT)
From: gerry
Email: None
To: Deputy Dog
Subject: It doesn't look that way to me
Message:
Since you and Jim go way back I'll tell ya: Jim 'announced' that he was taking a break a while back. And he did. What's the mystery? He'll be back when he feels like it. Your transparent 'baiting' isn't going to move him one way or the other.

And besides what do care?

Where were you the last several weeks? (not that I really care but as a comparison.)

And finally what's with the 'prudent' thing. What are you afraid of?

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Date: Thurs, Dec 07, 2000 at 21:52:47 (GMT)
From: Steve Quint
Email: the_avenger55@hotmail.com
To: gerry
Subject: Enlightenment - Or Lightening The Brain
Message:
Lightening the brain of its capacity to think in any sort of normal way. Maybe gugu maharatweed wants everybody in the world to talk like these people. He seems to be acting that way. Strange.

Steve

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Date: Thurs, Dec 07, 2000 at 20:24:49 (GMT)
From: suchabanana
Email: None
To: gerry
Subject: it's a female sexual repression/m. fantasy thing
Message:
'And you asked nothing in return only that I do what is best for me.
You are there when I turn my back on you, and you are there when I return.
Always kind, always compassionate, always understanding, always ready to shower me with your precious gift.
There is nothing more I want in this life.'

Yeah, right! He asked for nothing in return, except blind Nazi devotion to him, absolute cult control of people's minds and lives, tens of millions of dollars and a mega-billionaire lifestyle. This person also confuses her own identity and breath with m. -- like he is some omniscient, omnipresent entity and she is just a nothing, a chimera. When was the last time she turned around at home and actually saw him in person? Always compassionate? Tell that to those who have been brow-beaten and verbally abused by m. Tell that to the ashram premies who got put out on the street.

'What an incredible contrast to him at the helm of a plane in his captain's uniform looking really sharp and unbelievably handsome.'

Get real! What kind of gooey, looney crap are they posting at enjoyinglife.org, anyway?! This was even after the routine censoring/editing, right? Maybe she just needs a guy in a uniform with a $40 million dollar plane-- how about a young, studly fighter pilot. I'm sure she could get fulfilled a lot better -- you know the double-entendre, gopi lunacy litany: 'his love just fills me up so completely inside, he fills that empty space inside of me, I find myself just wanting only his love, his touch, his grace.'

All the lonely people, where do they all come from? Confusing m. with God might be bad enough, but then to make it some kind of sick fantasy trip -- yuck! That part always repulsed me with the premie chicks. How many dudes ever talked that way? 'his love just fills up that empty place, and I find myself just wanting only him and his love, filling me more and more...'

Those posts remind me of a Sally Reeder-type letter: 'today is Father's Day and m. is such a father and lover to us all.' Vice is nice, but...

barf, barf, barf. Somebody get these pathetic, lonely ladies a real man!!! (or at least a battery-operated toy and a big stuffed teddy bear).

In closing, perpetuating a self-serving family dynasty of megalomaniacal spiritual tyrants is sikh, sikh, sikh! Yep - It's a Sikh tradition. (Also very lucrative materially.) Holy family, indeed!

Peace,

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Date: Fri, Dec 08, 2000 at 04:21:19 (GMT)
From: Cynthia
Email: None
To: suchabanana
Subject: To suchabanana, you nailed it right on the head...
Message:
so to speak:)))

sucha said:
Those posts remind me of a Sally Reeder-type letter: 'today is
Father's Day and m. is such a father and lover to us all.' Vice is nice, but...

Hi! Thank you so much. I been trying to think of Sally's last name for months. I was that gopie type, and I wrote to m everyday and I got a lot of letters from Sally. Weird. The lord's holy vessel.

I still have the responses, I haven't read them in years, but I am tempted to take a look. They might even be hilarious, ya never know.

Hey, thanks for that memory jag.

Cyn

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Date: Fri, Dec 08, 2000 at 05:36:57 (GMT)
From: suchabanana
Email: None
To: Cynthia
Subject: To suchabanana, you nailed it right on the head...
Message:
Cynthia, HI!

Yeah, I went through my old stuff and found a Sally Reeder letter recently. Wow, the concepts she laid on me, too. She was the official letter writer for those responses to urgent premie missives to m.

Hmmm, I thought we were supposedly smashing the ol' concept maker!

In truth, we were being indoctrinated with a whole new set of concepts, while shedding our own brains' knowledge and relinquishing our personal space (boundaries and self-preservation from abuse). Brainwashing is the correct operative term, I think.

Peace,

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Date: Thurs, Dec 07, 2000 at 21:12:02 (GMT)
From: cq
Email: None
To: suchabanana
Subject: why just female?
Message:
the whole Maha trip is admittedly about repression/submission/surrender/fantasy/kiss-my-toes-why-don't-you/ooooh you-know-you-want-a-dominator-in-your-life/don't you?

Submission to an all-powerful overlord/lover is the juice that's kept religion going for all these centuries. The Maha's version has nothing original about it. It's about buying the 'I'm a weak sinner, dependent on my Lord's grace'-trip that the various churches (or rather the priests of those churches) have been foisting on mankind ever since the first shaman claimed credit for a successful harvest.

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Date: Fri, Dec 08, 2000 at 02:49:25 (GMT)
From: suchabanana
Email: None
To: cq
Subject: Could be gay or sado-masochistic overtones,too. ok
Message:
Yeah, cq, I dig what you're saying. However, what I was referring to were the gooey expressions of blatant infatuation - often not even subliminal sexuality. The 'fill up my aching empty cavity, oh supreme lover Master', stuff.

Please review and understand what I was talking about -- the repressed sexual element as an expression of female devotion (especially in the ashrams, as I recall), substituting for a healthy, fulfilling relationship. Look at the words those premie women chose in their wetdream posts. Unless a dude is a monk, gay, or just a screwed-up dysfunctional wimp, those choices of words are clearly a twisted sexual female-male relationship fantasy. Even a gay expression of that fluffy stuff is still a twisted take on the same theme (in that case, the dominator - and the passive dominated dupe - who bends over and takes it up the butt spiritually).

It would be one thing for a guy to talk about God that way as the spiritual lover of one's soul, but drooling over some short fat-ass guru - pretending he's handsome like some Malibu film celeb to screw. It's just spiritual, delusional groupiedom -- a situation I know very well from my rock concert tours. [There used to be gorgeous young women just waiting to do their Clintons in the oral office - same thing. Fucked up people with an identity crisis.]

From my observation, the gopi - gropie syndrome was a phenomenon unto itself. Perhaps one day (when I feel like discussing it) I'll relate here what Marolyn Johnson Rawat herself (#1 gopi) told me when we lived in a premie house together. That will reveal the totally extreme, obsessive thinking of some female premies.

For example, how many sane, straight guys would ramble on about how handsome m. looks in his phony pilot suit? I never met a single self-respecting premie dude who did that shit, unless he was agreeing with a woman friend - to be nice, etc. Barf, barf, barf.

Now, I don't want to belabor the point. Furthermore, for the record, I respect all the women who post on this site. But let's not anyone be in denial here about kinky undercurrents in premie gopiedom. We used to joke about it all the time, in the old days. That's a fact.

Peace,

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Date: Thurs, Dec 07, 2000 at 20:04:27 (GMT)
From: Gregg
Email: None
To: gerry
Subject: Lovesick premies...
Message:
And these dribblings are from the same EV site that assures us that Maharaj is neither Lord, God nor Satguru?

These are poems of love and dependence and faith that the Master is, indeed, in control of these peoples' lives, so that they do not need to worry themselves with petty matters such as family, friends, jobs, etc. Maharaji is watching over them, personally, with his benign moon-like face.

Oh well, I learned one thing from the third poet of which I had previously been unaware: that Maharaji is 'incredibly sharp and unbelievably handsome.'

Huh. Live and learn, I always say.

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Date: Thurs, Dec 07, 2000 at 19:45:21 (GMT)
From: gerry
Email: None
To: all
Subject: The amazing, amazing Mr Breath
Message:
Look what Mr Breath can do now !!!

Through the breath

Through the breath,
my heart can write.
Through the breath,
it reads too.
Through the breath,
it distinguishes
the seeds from the weeds,
Through the breath,
it recognises
the words of
simplicity, sincerity
and truthfulness.
Through the breath,
my heart receives,
all those
beautiful gifts
from you.

Stojan Svet
Postojna, Slovenia

Go, Mr Breath, go!

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Date: Sat, Dec 09, 2000 at 14:32:08 (GMT)
From: Deputy dog
Email: None
To: gerry
Subject: John 4: 24
Message:
God is Spirit, and those who worhsip Him must worship in spirit and truth.
John 4: 24
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Date: Sat, Dec 09, 2000 at 16:22:26 (GMT)
From: Hal
Email: None
To: Deputy dog
Subject: John 4: 24
Message:
You amaze me sometimes Dep. you seem to be into everything with Ju JU and Wu Wu. You were a Buddhist down below there and now you're quoting Bible stuff. You like ram Dass and Zen and it seems just about everything new agey. Where does the old Maha fit in there? Is he something special or just another spiritual thing you keep on the mantlepiece?

Do you have any discrimination or is it all wowee ?

Did you ever really give 100% to k & m or hold plenty back for all the rest of it?

Sorry to bombard you with questions but I am curious.

Hal

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Date: Sat, Dec 09, 2000 at 17:59:42 (GMT)
From: Deputy Dog
Email: None
To: Hal
Subject: John 4: 24
Message:
Hal,

Buddhists can read the Bible. It's allowed. I became a Buddhist later on in life and the bible quote was meant to appeal to exes with Christian beliefs.

The message of Ram Dass and zen is not new agey, neither is Shakespeare, spinach therapy and jogging on hot coals. Okay maybe the last two.

You ask, 'Do you have any discrimination or is it all wowee?' Well Hal, it's all wowee.

No, I just use what works and what I enjoy, and I guess I'm a bit like Ram Dass, and my relationship with Maharaji is a bit like Ram Dass's realtionship with Neem Karoli Baba, his Maharaji. Ram Dass investigated other trips. It's fun.

I'd say I gave 100% to Knowledge, but I've always been a bit of an intellectual. I didn't get into the whole devotional trip that Jim and so many of the disgruntled exes who post here did. I don't know why. It just didn't appeal to me.

Maybe I was lucky.

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Date: Sat, Dec 09, 2000 at 18:24:40 (GMT)
From: Hal
Email: None
To: Deputy Dog
Subject: Thanks Dep
Message:
Appreciate your response,

I too enjoy a very varied diet of inspiration although as a follower of Maha I was told very emphatically by him that other pathways were not to be compared with his 'true knowledge'.

He said not so long ago when asked by an aspirant if knowledge was like other meditations that it was not.

I think that ram dass's relationship to his guru was totally devotional wasn't it? I bow to the probability that you are much more knowledgable on RD than me.

These day's I'm inclined to drop as much belief system stuff as I can - and just focus myself into life this moment and my experience of contentment has increased since shedding hopes and dreams of reaching enlightenment. I accept that I am where I am and it's fine and dandy to be here.

I aint too keen on the ol Maha these days. I don't hate him but I feel more empowered and connected without him. Different folks different strokes,

keep well,
hal

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Date: Fri, Dec 08, 2000 at 13:46:00 (GMT)
From: AJW
Email: None
To: gerry
Subject: The amazing, amazing Mr Breath
Message:
Through the breath,
I blow up balloons,
Through the breath,
I blow on my hot cup of tea and cool it,
Through the breath
I suck my intoxicants.

Anth the (cough cough)drug addict, having a cup of tea while putting up the Christmas decorations.

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Date: Fri, Dec 08, 2000 at 15:17:57 (GMT)
From: Steve Quint
Email: the_avenger55@hotmail.com
To: AJW
Subject: The amazing, amazing Mr Breath
Message:
Beautiful, Anth. Have you submitted it to enjoyingstrife.org for an edit check?

Steve

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Date: Thurs, Dec 07, 2000 at 21:19:07 (GMT)
From: Mr Hanky
Email: None
To: gerry
Subject: Don't forget about me!
Message:
tha's right, folks,
without Mr Hanky,
you wouldn't know which end
you oughta b breathin' from!
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Date: Thurs, Dec 07, 2000 at 19:41:02 (GMT)
From: Marianne
Email: None
To: gerry
Subject: Retch, retch
Message:
Stop that gerry! Right now!!!!
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Date: Fri, Dec 08, 2000 at 09:19:34 (GMT)
From: Jean-Michel
Email: None
To: Marianne
Subject: Marianne ?
Message:
Did you check your email ?
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Date: Thurs, Dec 07, 2000 at 20:07:23 (GMT)
From: gerry
Email: None
To: Marianne
Subject: OK, Marianne, but just one more?
Message:
Like a vineyard

My master's Knowledge
is like a vineyard.
Sweet grapes
are his gifts to me.
Whoever
embraces them
with their hearts
extracts a
priceless benefit.

Stojan Svet
From New Delhi, India

For Pat Halley

Their master's nollidge
Is like a crow bar.
Plastic skull plates
are his gift to him.
Whoever
dare pie the Lord
with his hands
will pay with
a crushing revenge

BURMA SHAVE!

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Date: Thurs, Dec 07, 2000 at 20:10:58 (GMT)
From: Marianne
Email: None
To: gerry
Subject: Loved the ode to Pat Halley, ger
Message:
But get rid of the fecking satsang poems! How goes it up your way? In a little over 3 weeks, I'll be all settled in Cork again!!!!!

Marianne

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Date: Thurs, Dec 07, 2000 at 21:27:06 (GMT)
From: cq
Email: None
To: Marianne
Subject: Cork? Blimey, introduce me to Father Ted will ya?
Message:
(well you are a death-row lawyer)

.
.
.
.
oooooooh. Sorry 'bout that.

& apologies to the late Father (the money was only resting in my account') Ted Crilly, aka the late, great Dermot Morgan.

More here:http://www.father-ted.co.uk/pages/horse.html

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Date: Thurs, Dec 07, 2000 at 21:46:05 (GMT)
From: Marianne
Email: None
To: cq
Subject: Cork? Blimey, introduce me to Father Ted will ya?
Message:
Hi Chris. Yes, I'm back to Cork again. I used to watch Father Ted when I was there. Loads of Catholic in jokes.

How are you?

Marianne

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Date: Fri, Dec 08, 2000 at 18:48:32 (GMT)
From: cq
Email: None
To: Marianne
Subject: Will email you tomorrow with all the news (nt)
Message:
salkfjd
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Date: Thurs, Dec 07, 2000 at 20:17:56 (GMT)
From: gerry
Email: None
To: Marianne
Subject: Pop a cork in Cork for me...
Message:
So soon? You lucky girl, you. Must whip Patty to get the citizen thing moving forward. PS She aced her Unix test yesterday...
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Date: Thurs, Dec 07, 2000 at 20:25:46 (GMT)
From: Marianne
Email: None
To: gerry
Subject: Patty/Ireland --OT
Message:
Congrats to Patty!

Did you get the info off the net about obtaining Irish citizenship?

Marianne

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Date: Thurs, Dec 07, 2000 at 20:34:34 (GMT)
From: gerry
Email: None
To: Marianne
Subject: Nyet, but will go there now (nt)
Message:
nt
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Date: Fri, Dec 08, 2000 at 20:34:09 (GMT)
From: Disculta
Email: None
To: Marianne
Subject: What, you're going and I haven't met you!
Message:
Hi Marianne,

Are you really moving to Cork? What will the death-row guys at San Quentin do?

Did you get my e-mail telling you my identity?

Give me a call sometime before you go if you have time.

Love, your neighbor for a while

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