Forum V: Archive
Compiled: Sat, Dec 16, 2000 at 21:05:25 (GMT)
From: Nov 23, 2000 To: Dec 14, 2000 Page: 4 Of: 5


Homer Simpson -:- 'Alchohol... -:- Thurs, Dec 07, 2000 at 08:26:39 (GMT)

Stonor -:- Comprehensive 'spiritual' 'link' pages -:- Thurs, Dec 07, 2000 at 03:28:56 (GMT)
__ Gregg -:- Thanks, Anna. I've bookmarked 'em. (nt) -:- Thurs, Dec 07, 2000 at 14:36:19 (GMT)

Sir Dave -:- They said it couldn't be done -:- Thurs, Dec 07, 2000 at 02:17:33 (GMT)
__ GiraffEs -:- Our necks are more useful that you think! -:- Thurs, Dec 07, 2000 at 14:10:56 (GMT)
__ __ Sir Dave -:- Our necks are more useful that you think! -:- Fri, Dec 08, 2000 at 00:08:24 (GMT)
__ Patrick -:- They said it couldn't be done -:- Thurs, Dec 07, 2000 at 11:54:36 (GMT)
__ __ bill -:- Do it Anon......nt -:- Thurs, Dec 07, 2000 at 14:03:10 (GMT)
__ Roger eDrek -:- That's really great, but... -:- Thurs, Dec 07, 2000 at 04:24:00 (GMT)
__ __ Roger eDrek -:- Search Engine should have a link on this page! -:- Fri, Dec 08, 2000 at 00:43:54 (GMT)
__ __ __ Sir Dave -:- Search Engine should have a link on this page! -:- Fri, Dec 08, 2000 at 01:08:07 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Cynthia -:- Kudos, Sir Dave!!! -:- Fri, Dec 08, 2000 at 01:18:32 (GMT)

Steve Quint -:- Don't Cast Your Pearls Before Swine -:- Wed, Dec 06, 2000 at 18:32:29 (GMT)
__ AJW -:- Alexander Bell -:- Thurs, Dec 07, 2000 at 09:33:28 (GMT)
__ __ Steve Quint -:- Alexander Bell -:- Thurs, Dec 07, 2000 at 10:49:33 (GMT)
__ __ __ Steve Quint -:- Small World, Ain't It -:- Thurs, Dec 07, 2000 at 11:00:07 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ AJW -:- What was the Christian doing... -:- Thurs, Dec 07, 2000 at 13:58:17 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Steve Quint@hotmail -:- What was the Christian doing... -:- Thurs, Dec 07, 2000 at 16:09:58 (GMT)
__ Bin Liner -:- Just because you got suckered........ -:- Thurs, Dec 07, 2000 at 02:11:30 (GMT)
__ __ Steve Quint -:- F.O. -:- Thurs, Dec 07, 2000 at 06:36:55 (GMT)
__ __ __ Bin Liner -:- In reality I'm me , who the fock are ye -:- Fri, Dec 08, 2000 at 01:08:11 (GMT)
__ Sir Dave -:- Yeah and talking about America's fantastic tech -:- Thurs, Dec 07, 2000 at 02:03:51 (GMT)
__ __ ham -:- Yeah ain't it great sir d -:- Thurs, Dec 07, 2000 at 09:30:20 (GMT)
__ __ bill -:- British Musical invasions in 60's,80's...... -:- Thurs, Dec 07, 2000 at 02:29:39 (GMT)
__ __ __ Sir Dave -:- British Musical invasions in 60's,80's...... -:- Fri, Dec 08, 2000 at 00:04:42 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ suchabanana -:- whiny 60's Brits wanking on black American music. -:- Fri, Dec 08, 2000 at 03:13:05 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Cynthia -:- such. Gotta disagree -:- Sat, Dec 09, 2000 at 04:54:53 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ such -:- Turn off your mind, relax and float downstream... -:- Sat, Dec 09, 2000 at 06:45:59 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ cq -:- Maha on Sgt Pepper album cover? I don't see him -:- Sat, Dec 09, 2000 at 16:10:26 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Hal -:- Oh yes Chris - I see him ! -:- Sat, Dec 09, 2000 at 16:31:32 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ cq -:- always thought he looked a bit of a tit (nt) -:- Sat, Dec 09, 2000 at 19:24:59 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Hal -:- Indeed ! ROFL ! nt -:- Sat, Dec 09, 2000 at 20:06:17 (GMT)
__ __ __ ham -:- Bill, bill, bill -:- Thurs, Dec 07, 2000 at 09:39:05 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Extasb -:- I just feel the love for everyonewhen I use extasb -:- Thurs, Dec 07, 2000 at 13:56:04 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ ham -:- Really Bill a good one doesn't drag, -:- Fri, Dec 08, 2000 at 03:48:51 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ bill -:- oh contrare! -:- Fri, Dec 08, 2000 at 12:53:02 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ ham -:- Organic vegan most of the time, -:- Fri, Dec 08, 2000 at 17:58:10 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ bill -:- Organic vegan most of the time, -:- Sat, Dec 09, 2000 at 05:03:15 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ exstab or extasb? -:- nt -:- Thurs, Dec 07, 2000 at 13:58:34 (GMT)
__ bill -:- ........technologies Before Swine -:- Wed, Dec 06, 2000 at 23:05:31 (GMT)
__ __ Stonor -:- 'Santa must be stopped!' No kidding! -:- Sat, Dec 09, 2000 at 05:27:30 (GMT)

Salam -:- M everlasting wisdom -:- Wed, Dec 06, 2000 at 12:45:53 (GMT)
__ Jerry -:- M everlasting wisdom -:- Wed, Dec 06, 2000 at 18:24:12 (GMT)
__ __ ham -:- And methinx the elk crowd doth protest too -:- Wed, Dec 06, 2000 at 23:41:31 (GMT)
__ Steve Quint -:- We're On The Same Wavelength Apparently -:- Wed, Dec 06, 2000 at 15:45:40 (GMT)
__ __ Salam -:- You are scaring me -:- Wed, Dec 06, 2000 at 16:04:19 (GMT)
__ __ __ Steve Quint -:- I'm Scaring Myself -:- Wed, Dec 06, 2000 at 16:11:31 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Salam -:- You have a problem -:- Wed, Dec 06, 2000 at 16:26:21 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Steven Quint -:- I have a problem -:- Wed, Dec 06, 2000 at 17:29:46 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Salam -:- I have a problem -:- Thurs, Dec 07, 2000 at 01:53:00 (GMT)

Anonymous -:- I Hate Him!!!!!!!! -:- Wed, Dec 06, 2000 at 06:00:51 (GMT)
__ Sir Dave -:- The British version -:- Wed, Dec 06, 2000 at 21:26:34 (GMT)
__ Gail -:- I Hate Him!!!!!!!! -:- Wed, Dec 06, 2000 at 15:39:27 (GMT)
__ Jesus the Christ -:- I .... Him!!!!!!!! -:- Wed, Dec 06, 2000 at 10:34:30 (GMT)
__ __ Salam -:- I .... Him!!!!!!!! -:- Wed, Dec 06, 2000 at 15:53:07 (GMT)
__ __ antimili -:- I .... do not love Him!!!!!!!! NT -:- Wed, Dec 06, 2000 at 15:32:48 (GMT)
__ __ Tim G -:- I .... Him!!!!!!!! -:- Wed, Dec 06, 2000 at 15:27:38 (GMT)
__ __ __ Salam -:- Why. you have a problem saying -:- Wed, Dec 06, 2000 at 16:00:21 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Tim G -:- Free Speech -:- Wed, Dec 06, 2000 at 18:08:12 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Salam -:- Free Speech -:- Thurs, Dec 07, 2000 at 00:40:02 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Bai Ji -:- Remember holy name, brothers! nt -:- Thurs, Dec 07, 2000 at 03:32:36 (GMT)

G -:- Sai Baba exposé now on India-Today web site -:- Wed, Dec 06, 2000 at 00:27:04 (GMT)
__ Gail -:- Sai Baba exposé now on India-Today web site -:- Wed, Dec 06, 2000 at 15:49:57 (GMT)
__ toby -:- Sai Baba exposé now on India-Today web site -:- Wed, Dec 06, 2000 at 08:30:34 (GMT)
__ __ Happy -:- Miragey on India Today -:- Thurs, Dec 07, 2000 at 17:36:49 (GMT)
__ __ Jean-Michel -:- Would you email be before ? -:- Wed, Dec 06, 2000 at 18:34:06 (GMT)
__ __ __ bill -:- Looming revelations JM? (nt) -:- Wed, Dec 06, 2000 at 23:18:54 (GMT)
__ __ gerry -:- toby, this is an excellent idea -:- Wed, Dec 06, 2000 at 17:11:11 (GMT)
__ Peter Howie -:- Freaky stuff -:- Wed, Dec 06, 2000 at 00:53:26 (GMT)
__ __ Sir Dave -:- No more living gods -:- Wed, Dec 06, 2000 at 12:13:37 (GMT)
__ __ __ Huh!? -:- Do you mean to say that ... -:- Fri, Dec 08, 2000 at 01:06:30 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ AJW -:- What's your problem Huh? -:- Sun, Dec 10, 2000 at 18:19:54 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Deputy dog -:- Huh!?, brilliant, I wish I'd written that!!!! (nt) -:- Sat, Dec 09, 2000 at 14:23:06 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Sir Dave -:- Global telepathy -:- Fri, Dec 08, 2000 at 01:17:37 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Huh? -:- Or is it amplified confusion -:- Fri, Dec 08, 2000 at 18:33:15 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Sir Dave -:- Or is it amplified confusion -:- Fri, Dec 08, 2000 at 22:01:50 (GMT)

G -:- Mean Genes (OT) -:- Tues, Dec 05, 2000 at 21:07:24 (GMT)
__ Stonor -:- I found the notes ... -:- Fri, Dec 08, 2000 at 23:15:05 (GMT)
__ __ G -:- I found the notes ... -:- Sat, Dec 09, 2000 at 00:05:44 (GMT)
__ Jerry -:- Mean Genes (OT) -:- Wed, Dec 06, 2000 at 18:04:07 (GMT)
__ __ ham -:- Great link as usual g -:- Thurs, Dec 07, 2000 at 00:09:50 (GMT)
__ __ __ Stonor -:- You looked 'symmetrical' to me! -:- Thurs, Dec 07, 2000 at 03:03:13 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Stonor -:- or should that be 'over-generalization'? (nt) -:- Thurs, Dec 07, 2000 at 03:05:03 (GMT)
__ __ __ G -:- symmetry -:- Thurs, Dec 07, 2000 at 01:02:04 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ cq -:- You mean you used to be indicisive ... -:- Thurs, Dec 07, 2000 at 20:41:29 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ G -:- I'm not sure what I mean. (NT) -:- Fri, Dec 08, 2000 at 23:53:49 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ cq -:- Hmmmm, there could be a market in that, G (nt) ! -:- Mon, Dec 11, 2000 at 18:27:10 (GMT)

Sir Dave -:- Don't worry about Maharaji, premies -:- Tues, Dec 05, 2000 at 20:17:29 (GMT)
__ TiM -:- Alternate Universe Maharaji dumber than Rawat! -:- Fri, Dec 08, 2000 at 00:12:03 (GMT)
__ __ Hal -:- Alternate Universe Maharaji dumber than Rawat! -:- Sat, Dec 09, 2000 at 17:33:28 (GMT)
__ __ __ gerry -:- Yo Hal, listen up, yer too hard on the lads -:- Mon, Dec 11, 2000 at 03:43:33 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Hal -:- Yeah - Sorry man -:- Mon, Dec 11, 2000 at 08:07:42 (GMT)
__ AJW -:- Great defence -:- Wed, Dec 06, 2000 at 14:39:02 (GMT)

Steve Quint -:- Wisdom Of The Ages -:- Tues, Dec 05, 2000 at 14:04:29 (GMT)
__ Gregg -:- His Point -:- Tues, Dec 05, 2000 at 17:00:08 (GMT)
__ __ Deputy Dog -:- Gregg, the intellect is not dangerous -:- Fri, Dec 08, 2000 at 01:45:06 (GMT)
__ __ __ Stonor -:- nothing to do with 'k' -:- Sat, Dec 09, 2000 at 02:23:58 (GMT)
__ __ __ gErRy -:- Well you got this one thing right... -:- Fri, Dec 08, 2000 at 02:05:21 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Deputy Dog -:- Well you got this one thing right... -:- Fri, Dec 08, 2000 at 02:16:39 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ gerry -:- You're too clever -:- Fri, Dec 08, 2000 at 02:18:59 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Deputy Dog -:- It's not rocket science gerry -:- Fri, Dec 08, 2000 at 02:54:00 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Stonor -:- I don't understand ... -:- Sat, Dec 09, 2000 at 02:30:10 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Deputy Dog -:- To Stonor - I don't understand ... -:- Wed, Dec 13, 2000 at 02:13:07 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Stonor -:- To Deputy Dog - I don't agree ... -:- Wed, Dec 13, 2000 at 02:56:04 (GMT)
__ AJW -:- So that's why... -:- Tues, Dec 05, 2000 at 15:51:00 (GMT)
__ __ Steve Quint -:- You Lived Dougerously, Anth -:- Tues, Dec 05, 2000 at 19:38:49 (GMT)
__ __ __ Cynthia -:- Rotten Vegetables are Good Things.... -:- Tues, Dec 05, 2000 at 21:48:08 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Deputy Dog -:- Rotten Vegetables are Good Things? -:- Sat, Dec 09, 2000 at 03:47:23 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ AJW -:- Falling -:- Sat, Dec 09, 2000 at 08:38:44 (GMT)
__ __ __ AJW -:- It's OK Steve (corny post) -:- Tues, Dec 05, 2000 at 19:53:40 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Papa Dum -:- using your loaf, ol' chapati? (nt) -:- Tues, Dec 05, 2000 at 20:08:14 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ janet -:- the pillsbury dough boy warned you (nt) -:- Wed, Dec 06, 2000 at 07:16:33 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Salam -:- I hate pizza -:- Wed, Dec 06, 2000 at 13:02:46 (GMT)

Astro -:- Christ Rules -:- Tues, Dec 05, 2000 at 08:28:31 (GMT)

Scott T. -:- Dazzling Media -:- Tues, Dec 05, 2000 at 07:25:43 (GMT)
__ Jerry -:- Dazzling Media -:- Wed, Dec 06, 2000 at 18:46:20 (GMT)
__ __ Scott T. -:- Dazzling Media -:- Wed, Dec 06, 2000 at 21:09:26 (GMT)
__ __ __ Jerry -:- Dazzling Media -:- Thurs, Dec 07, 2000 at 02:37:59 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Scott T. -:- Hangers -:- Thurs, Dec 07, 2000 at 05:14:07 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Scott T. -:- Dazzling Media -:- Thurs, Dec 07, 2000 at 04:31:12 (GMT)
__ __ cq -:- a five year old knows this one -:- Wed, Dec 06, 2000 at 19:18:47 (GMT)
__ Sir Dave -:- Dazzling Media -:- Tues, Dec 05, 2000 at 20:38:30 (GMT)
__ __ Scott T. -:- Dazzling Media -:- Tues, Dec 05, 2000 at 21:16:11 (GMT)
__ Joe -:- Dazzling Media -:- Tues, Dec 05, 2000 at 18:00:20 (GMT)
__ __ Rick -:- Dazzling Media -:- Wed, Dec 06, 2000 at 02:32:01 (GMT)
__ __ __ Scott T. -:- Dazzling Media -:- Wed, Dec 06, 2000 at 05:27:22 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Rick -:- Dazzling Media -:- Wed, Dec 06, 2000 at 06:08:38 (GMT)
__ __ Scott T. -:- Dazzling Media -:- Tues, Dec 05, 2000 at 21:31:21 (GMT)
__ __ __ Joe -:- Dazzling Media -:- Tues, Dec 05, 2000 at 22:05:27 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Scott T. -:- Dazzling Media -:- Wed, Dec 06, 2000 at 05:20:08 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Joe -:- Dazzling Media -:- Wed, Dec 06, 2000 at 18:48:32 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Scott T. -:- Dazzling Media -:- Wed, Dec 06, 2000 at 21:30:57 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Joe -:- The persuasive Gore argument -:- Wed, Dec 06, 2000 at 21:50:00 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Scott T. -:- The persuasive Gore argument -:- Wed, Dec 06, 2000 at 22:43:07 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Jerry -:- Dazzling Media -:- Wed, Dec 06, 2000 at 21:11:14 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Scott T. -:- Dazzling Media -:- Wed, Dec 06, 2000 at 21:43:36 (GMT)
__ __ Way -:- Joe - I know why you got cable -:- Tues, Dec 05, 2000 at 18:14:38 (GMT)
__ __ __ Joe -:- Queer as Folk -- And Hey you Brits...... -:- Tues, Dec 05, 2000 at 18:40:32 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ bill -:- Queer as Folk -- And Hey you Brits...... -:- Wed, Dec 06, 2000 at 17:31:45 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Way -:- Queer as Folk -- And Hey you Brits...... -:- Tues, Dec 05, 2000 at 18:48:52 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Joe -:- Also, Safe Sex -:- Tues, Dec 05, 2000 at 18:47:56 (GMT)
__ JTF -:- Dazzling Media -:- Tues, Dec 05, 2000 at 07:53:06 (GMT)
__ __ Scott T. -:- Dazzling Media -:- Tues, Dec 05, 2000 at 15:02:39 (GMT)
__ __ __ Scott T. -:- Ferinstance -:- Tues, Dec 05, 2000 at 16:26:10 (GMT)

The imperfect Master -:- Well we could be terrorists -:- Tues, Dec 05, 2000 at 00:36:21 (GMT)
__ the dude -:- Hey man, like chill -:- Tues, Dec 05, 2000 at 02:06:24 (GMT)
__ gerry -:- you first -:- Tues, Dec 05, 2000 at 01:02:52 (GMT)
__ __ Marianne -:- FA, you ought to delete that first post -:- Tues, Dec 05, 2000 at 01:31:37 (GMT)


Date: Thurs, Dec 07, 2000 at 08:26:39 (GMT)
From: Homer Simpson
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: 'Alchohol...
Message:
the cause and solution to all o'man's problems.'
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Date: Thurs, Dec 07, 2000 at 03:28:56 (GMT)
From: Stonor
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: Comprehensive 'spiritual' 'link' pages
Message:
Zelda asked below about web pages with multiple/diverse 'spiritual' links below. Here are three of the most comprehensive I have found:

Resources for religious/spiritual interpreting

Home of David Ulansey

The One Behind the Many

Anna

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Date: Thurs, Dec 07, 2000 at 14:36:19 (GMT)
From: Gregg
Email: None
To: Stonor
Subject: Thanks, Anna. I've bookmarked 'em. (nt)
Message:
x
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Date: Thurs, Dec 07, 2000 at 02:17:33 (GMT)
From: Sir Dave
Email: sirdavid12@hotmail.com
To: Everyone
Subject: They said it couldn't be done
Message:
They said it couldn't be done when I told them I'd invented condom's for giraffs. They said the giraffs would never be able to open the packets, let alone get the money into the condom machines. Yes, they called me mad but I didn't give up.

So it was a piece of cake when I set about inventing a search engine system for the forum archives. And now it's finished - complete and up-to-date. All the forum archives from all the past Forums 1, 2, 3 & 4 and the present Forum 5; they're all indexed in the search engine to reveal fascinating data on Maharaji and his family business.

Click here to search ALL the forum archives

It's interesting to see the evolution of the forum participants. Just search on a name and all their posts are thrown up. See the history of Rob, Shroom and even Mike Dettmers. Read the orginal Big Cheese story, the full works of Larkin, Keith & SHP and delve into ancient history and dig up old fossils like TRUE PRIMIE.

The search engine is not 100% accurate and if you encounter obvious omissions, let me know. In time I'll find another, even better search engine which will be more accurate. For instance, with this one, every time I spider the mass of forum archives over all the thirteen sites, I get a different number of spidered pages, so somewhere along the line, some archives must get missed out each time it is spidered.

.. Dave

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Date: Thurs, Dec 07, 2000 at 14:10:56 (GMT)
From: GiraffEs
Email: None
To: Sir Dave
Subject: Our necks are more useful that you think!
Message:
While we appreciate your efforts from the male end of things,
our long necked ladies only allow us to approach them one period of time a year! The rest of the time, well, let me ask YOU what would YOU use a nice long neck for? Hmmmmm?

You can shorten my name by dropping the e, but dont shorten my neck!

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Date: Fri, Dec 08, 2000 at 00:08:24 (GMT)
From: Sir Dave
Email: None
To: GiraffEs
Subject: Our necks are more useful that you think!
Message:
Apologies for my gaff, Mr Giraffe. You are amongst the most noble of creatures. And I alway's had a thing for women with long necks.
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Date: Thurs, Dec 07, 2000 at 11:54:36 (GMT)
From: Patrick
Email: None
To: Sir Dave
Subject: They said it couldn't be done
Message:
This is great fun and personally useful. Thanks Dave.
My own understanding of Maharaji has evolved quite a bit since I started expressing myself here as 'Anon' back in Forum 1.
I think I might search all my posts in the last year, copy and paste them into Microsoft Word and at length, condense the salient points into a single more concise essay.

I am thinking about having a page on my website

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Date: Thurs, Dec 07, 2000 at 14:03:10 (GMT)
From: bill
Email: None
To: Patrick
Subject: Do it Anon......nt
Message:
dfg
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Date: Thurs, Dec 07, 2000 at 04:24:00 (GMT)
From: Roger eDrek
Email: drek@oz.net
To: Sir Dave
Subject: That's really great, but...
Message:
can't you make me look better than that? A few touch ups with an air brush or something?

Seriously though, excellent work, Sir Dave!

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Date: Fri, Dec 08, 2000 at 00:43:54 (GMT)
From: Roger eDrek
Email: drek@oz.net
To: Roger eDrek
Subject: Search Engine should have a link on this page!
Message:
IMHO, Sir Dave's Search Engine should have a promiently posted link at the top of this page!
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Date: Fri, Dec 08, 2000 at 01:08:07 (GMT)
From: Sir Dave
Email: None
To: Roger eDrek
Subject: Search Engine should have a link on this page!
Message:
Yes but would anybody ever notice it? My research has shown that most people don't notice such things as links at the top of pages. For instance, whenever DLM/Elan Vital Papers is mentioned here, people ask how to get to it.

I think a link is a good idea, perhaps with flashing colours and a naked model. Then people might see it.

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Date: Fri, Dec 08, 2000 at 01:18:32 (GMT)
From: Cynthia
Email: None
To: Sir Dave
Subject: Kudos, Sir Dave!!!
Message:
Thank you for your excellent work. I agree, a link would be great.

You're a treasure.

Love, Cynthia

P.S. Now I can go back and read my stuff and see how much I've grown. Thanks sooo much.

A big hug from Vermont to UK, you Brits!

It's gonna be 10 deg. below F tonight) Burrrrrrrrrrr!!!!

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Date: Wed, Dec 06, 2000 at 18:32:29 (GMT)
From: Steve Quint
Email: the_avenger55@hotmail.com
To: Everyone
Subject: Don't Cast Your Pearls Before Swine
Message:
In this time of great reflection on American politics, with recent elections in both the U.S. and Canada, I would like to reflect for a moment on America's place in the twentienth century.

The Wright Brothers, Alexander Graham Bell, Thomas Edison, the inventors of the television and computer, all North Americans. In fairness, many of the scientists who laid the foundations for these inventors were European.

The technologies being abused by our friend from the land of the caste system and the holy river and the religious belief system that would confuse an average flower, were developed in a totally different culture from his.

American imperialism, if you will, has been misplaced and misguided. I believe that Americans should be enormously proud of their technological achievements. By disseminating them to countries that do not have the same culture the world has become an unpleasant and sometimes unsafe place. Instead of trying to conquer oil and be policmen half-way across the world, they should address the multitude of imbalances in their own country and if they are interested in world domination, they should begin by controlling the dissemination of technologies, and I'm talking about even relatively basic ones that do not belong in the third world.

Our beloved ruru maharatweed is a perfect example of advanced technologies being abused by someone who comes from a culture where honesty is not valued, probably ridiculed, and status is probably guaged by how many people you can fool.

Steve

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Date: Thurs, Dec 07, 2000 at 09:33:28 (GMT)
From: AJW
Email: None
To: Steve Quint
Subject: Alexander Bell
Message:
I thought he was Scottish.

Anth the Celt

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Date: Thurs, Dec 07, 2000 at 10:49:33 (GMT)
From: Steve Quint
Email: the_avenger55@home.com
To: AJW
Subject: Alexander Bell
Message:
O.K. so he was born in Scotland - but that's part of the Canadian Commonwealth, isn't it?

Seriously, he died in Canada, so his soul is now Canadian, I guess. He lived most of his life and did his inventing in North America.

Steve The Feckfull

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Date: Thurs, Dec 07, 2000 at 11:00:07 (GMT)
From: Steve Quint
Email: the_avenger55@home.com
To: Steve Quint
Subject: Small World, Ain't It
Message:
A quiz - when and to whom was the first trademark in history given to? I learnt this important fact from an Englishman born in India in my neighbourhood pub last night. Does the best East Indian accent.

I met a Canadian guy in a bar Saturday whose brother, a born-again Christian, lived in Dehra Dun for 20 years. Small world, isn't it?

Steve

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Date: Thurs, Dec 07, 2000 at 13:58:17 (GMT)
From: AJW
Email: None
To: Steve Quint
Subject: What was the Christian doing...
Message:
...drinking in a bar?

Was he or she having second thoughts and thinking they may have been ensnared in a cult?

Anth the born again atheist

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Date: Thurs, Dec 07, 2000 at 16:09:58 (GMT)
From: Steve Quint@hotmail
Email: the_avenger55@hotmail.com
To: AJW
Subject: What was the Christian doing...
Message:
The Christian lives in Bombay now. He had a business in Dehra Dun and maybe was a spy collecting information for some cult-busting organization.

By the way, the first trademark was given to the Bass Beer Company in England in 1790. They had a red triangle on their bottles and other companies started copying this trademark and so they complained to parliament.

The 'red triangle'. Sounds like a secret symbol for the third eye.

Steve

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Date: Thurs, Dec 07, 2000 at 02:11:30 (GMT)
From: Bin Liner
Email: None
To: Steve Quint
Subject: Just because you got suckered........
Message:
......by an Indian flim-flam man is no reason to deny millions of impoverished people a better life.

What technology 'belongs' to the U.S ?

You'd still be crawling towards the 'Promised Land' in ox carts if the numero uno power of the 19th century ,(GB) had kept steam train technology to itself.

As far as other cultures not respecting honesty etc. .... well really.

Con artist/snake oil merchant/carpet bagger/riverboat gambler/rip off/spin doctor.........

All recognisable types in the great mosaic of American culture.

The 'policeman' bit , you wanted the job.

Why don't you fuck off & read a few books.

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Date: Thurs, Dec 07, 2000 at 06:36:55 (GMT)
From: Steve Quint
Email: the_avenger55@hotmail.com
To: Bin Liner
Subject: F.O.
Message:
Who the fuck are you in reality and why are you so rude?

S.Q.

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Date: Fri, Dec 08, 2000 at 01:08:11 (GMT)
From: Bin Liner
Email: None
To: Steve Quint
Subject: In reality I'm me , who the fock are ye
Message:
I'm so rude because I don't agree with one single word of what you wrote.

I do agree with you though that Barry Bollix Shwar needs taking down a peg or 2.

Just leave the other millions in the subcontinent out of the fight.

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Date: Thurs, Dec 07, 2000 at 02:03:51 (GMT)
From: Sir Dave
Email: None
To: Steve Quint
Subject: Yeah and talking about America's fantastic tech
Message:
Yeah, and talking about America's fantastic technological superiority, how come they use 1950s voting technology when having the most important election in their country?

Most things were invented in Europe. Marconi invented radio and then his company invented TV. Also the steam engine, trains, the industrial revolution, the jet engine, the rocket engine, the computer, the Wordwide Web - all were invented in Europe.

So too was The Forum Archives Search Engine. This is now finished, by the way and it now holds all of the posts ever written to all the ex-premie forums, right up to date.

I disagree slightly with your last point. Maharaji has come up against something too powerful with the internet. He never envisaged such a thing and he is powerless to oppose it. He has tried to utilise it himself, in his limited way but has failed to grasp the mettle and judging by his web site, he has given up and instead, is relying on the cult premies to spawn all manner of crap websites to try to out manoeuvre the ex-premies.

With this technology, Maharaji is failing dismally.

.. Dave

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Date: Thurs, Dec 07, 2000 at 09:30:20 (GMT)
From: ham
Email: None
To: Sir Dave
Subject: Yeah ain't it great sir d
Message:
Watching him trying to grapple with democracy and free speech, what a hoot

and since we're having another lets put the boot into the usa, samplers, please tell me that was a japanese techie toy, I'm sure it was

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Date: Thurs, Dec 07, 2000 at 02:29:39 (GMT)
From: bill
Email: None
To: Sir Dave
Subject: British Musical invasions in 60's,80's......
Message:
Do you see one looming for this decade?
I loved both of the previous ones.
Without the Brits in the early 80's, it would have been rather barren. Do you see things revving on the launch pad over there yet?
An ex premie internet feed in a bar singing drunked bar toons with the words changed to rawatian style?
streaming live from her majesties sunny kingdom, Sir Davids
annual Royal Gala!
We could drink and sing along with your live feed, hold up the lyric sheet. How costly IS that technology now?
THAT is american made by the way!
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Date: Fri, Dec 08, 2000 at 00:04:42 (GMT)
From: Sir Dave
Email: sirdavid12@hotmail.com
To: bill
Subject: British Musical invasions in 60's,80's......
Message:
I'm not a drinker but I do like a song and dance. I've been taking my daughters to dancing lessons and the teachers have relented and let me join in sometimes, providing I don't make the children laugh too much. I can wave my arms about better than Maharaji ever could, even in my decrepit old state.

Ham knows more about today's music than I do. Mind you, my kids turned me on to 'Steps' and I think they've made their mark in the USA. Not like the old days of The Beatles taking America by storm...

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Date: Fri, Dec 08, 2000 at 03:13:05 (GMT)
From: suchabanana
Email: None
To: Sir Dave
Subject: whiny 60's Brits wanking on black American music.
Message:
In retrospect, the whole so-called British Invasion essentially started as a bunch of white British kids imitating black American rhythm and blues musicians: Isleys (Twist and Shout), Chuck Berry (Roll over Beethoven), Robert Johnson (Love in Vain), Marvin Gaye (Money), Little Richard, Howling Wolf, Freddy King, Big Mama Thornton, John Lee Hooker, Elmore James, et al.

Just ask Sir Paul (the next time you're in Scotland), or those total rip-off artists - that shitty primping crappy singer and his dopey beginner guitarist: Jagger-Richards.

Then, factor in the tens of millions of corporate dollars to promote those teddy-boy and mod-rocker groups - which was unprecedented before Capitol Records actually did that - just to guarantee that the Beatles would be the next big thing in America!

Incidentally, I was born a Brit myself.

Peace,

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Date: Sat, Dec 09, 2000 at 04:54:53 (GMT)
From: Cynthia
Email: None
To: suchabanana
Subject: such. Gotta disagree
Message:
Hi suchabanana,

I loved the Beatles. They were a phenomanon of charisma and talent. Sure they were marketed. That's the rat race musci biz, but I still loved their voices, harmonies, lyrics.

I know a 14 yr. old girl who is so into the Beatles right now that she say's she hates, NSYNC. Typical teenaged stuff. But not quite. She listens to Rubber Soul, Sgt. Peppers, and talks to her mother about it, who grew up in the Beatles hay day. She's taking shit from her friends who adore NSYNC, who are cute, sing nice, but are no Beatles::))

Today's John Lennons death anniversary. M took that away, too.

Be Well, such,
Cynthia

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Date: Sat, Dec 09, 2000 at 06:45:59 (GMT)
From: such
Email: None
To: Cynthia
Subject: Turn off your mind, relax and float downstream...
Message:
Cynthia,

When I was in high school, as each record came out, I learned the vocals and guitar and bass parts. Later, when I was a professional musician in NYC, Lennon produced my band (after the Beatles broke up).

I took his death very hard in 1980. Driving on tour through the deep snow, with '...and so this is Christmas...' on constant rotation on just about every radio station on the dial.

Especially during the Vietnam War years, it was also important to have some influential voices for peace. And it was the hippies, after all, that sponsored m. to come to the West (I heard some dope deals were allegedly involved, too, early on). We should also remember that it was the Beatles who introduced hundreds of millions of people in the world to elements of Indian music, fashions, and meditation in the mid-60s. From there came an openness to exposure to such things, for many young boomers. The concept of a satguru bringing peace on earth in the New Age Aquarian Millenium was also the bait that obviously played into such pipe dreams.

Look at the photo collage artwork on the cover of the Sgt. Pepper's Lonely Hearts Club Band album. Peering over George Harrison's shoulder is the young boy-god himself, Guru Maharaj ji! [Maybe someone should post an enlargement of a scan of that portion of the album cover! I don't have a copy of the record anymore.]

The Beatle thing, Woodstock nation, peace-love, equality, freedom, do your own thing, communes - we bought into a lot of that. I still subscribe to the spirit that was inspiring us upward and onward into peace, wisdom, light, love, and harmony.

'Turn off your mind relax and float downstream
It is not dying, it is not dying
That you may see the meaning of within...'

-- John Lennon, 1966

Bless you, John, wherever you are. Yeah - Imagine all the people living for today. You can say I'm a dreamer, but I'm not the only one. I'm hope someday you'll join us, and the world will be one...

Way Groovy!

Peace,

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Date: Sat, Dec 09, 2000 at 16:10:26 (GMT)
From: cq
Email: None
To: such
Subject: Maha on Sgt Pepper album cover? I don't see him
Message:
http://members.aol.com/jsweeney/pepper.htm for a closer look.
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Date: Sat, Dec 09, 2000 at 16:31:32 (GMT)
From: Hal
Email: None
To: cq
Subject: Oh yes Chris - I see him !
Message:
When I stared for a few minutes at the left breast of the woman on the right , I could definitely absolutely 100% for sure see the beautiful radiant face of our living Lord and perfect master (pranam). Look again!
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Date: Sat, Dec 09, 2000 at 19:24:59 (GMT)
From: cq
Email: None
To: Hal
Subject: always thought he looked a bit of a tit (nt)
Message:
tee hee!
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Date: Sat, Dec 09, 2000 at 20:06:17 (GMT)
From: Hal
Email: None
To: cq
Subject: Indeed ! ROFL ! nt
Message:
nt
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Date: Thurs, Dec 07, 2000 at 09:39:05 (GMT)
From: ham
Email: None
To: bill
Subject: Bill, bill, bill
Message:
Electronica as they so quaintly put it, big brit invasion through the 90's and still now, all of the mid west kids are starting to rave, god help them when the authorities there realize how big it is.

E consumption in the us of a up 800% + in the last two years, bejeesus even the hip-hop geezers are getting into it.

Think I'm just gonna have to add you to my tape list and bring you up to date.
After the slight lull here after 12 years in FULL swing house music's kicking in fresh again and moving on again, new territories.
I'm picking up onm some excellent shit coming out of detroit at the moment as well, preobably take 'em at least 5 years to twig what's under their noses, they completely missed the late 80's techno which kick started it in europe.

By the way it's really great to see you around at the mo.

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Date: Thurs, Dec 07, 2000 at 13:56:04 (GMT)
From: Extasb
Email: None
To: ham
Subject: I just feel the love for everyonewhen I use extasb
Message:
Well, that's the quote from the interview I saw on the subject recently.
In the late 80's my niece and nephew were e-ing out and
-all night long-ing at raves.
I was invited but the dang thing STARTED at 1am!

Now that Dettmers has made the forum safer, and there is much less threat now then when a letter bomb from MILI was not out of the question, here is my address.
16 jay street, wethersfield conn. 06109 usa bill burke
You know, if I am left alone for hours, I end up dancing.
Some wild interpretive dance ala Joe.

I will mail you back something or other.
perhaps you will be the first (but not the last) to get.....
well, it can be a surprise.
You'll love it.

Ive been here, just reading, and letting the keyboard collect dust.

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Date: Fri, Dec 08, 2000 at 03:48:51 (GMT)
From: ham
Email: None
To: Extasb
Subject: Really Bill a good one doesn't drag,
Message:
and there's always a chill-out zone if you feel a bit zonked
It'll be 8 before you know it.

Ecstacy can be very lovey, fakily so more in the early 90's because it was so unexpected I think after the commercial and pretty fake cocaine 80's, people are a lot more chilled about it now, more real really

I quite often do just smnall amounts, I find it really subtle

Still my chemikal intake is definitely getting small at the mo,
what with all that good livin to be done

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Date: Fri, Dec 08, 2000 at 12:53:02 (GMT)
From: bill
Email: None
To: ham
Subject: oh contrare!
Message:
Unless you are eating diffent than us americans, you are getting
LOTS of chemicals!
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Date: Fri, Dec 08, 2000 at 17:58:10 (GMT)
From: ham
Email: None
To: bill
Subject: Organic vegan most of the time,
Message:
or occasional organic cheddar,
wish I had more dosh & I'd go fully organic.

Have you seen the sperm count has dropped by 50% in the usa & europe in fifty years, and the increase isn't linear.
What's with that

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Date: Sat, Dec 09, 2000 at 05:03:15 (GMT)
From: bill
Email: None
To: ham
Subject: Organic vegan most of the time,
Message:
what I read was that chlorine effects something that effects that.
And we do clorinate the water!
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Date: Thurs, Dec 07, 2000 at 13:58:34 (GMT)
From: exstab or extasb?
Email: None
To: Extasb
Subject: nt
Message:
dwfga
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Date: Wed, Dec 06, 2000 at 23:05:31 (GMT)
From: bill
Email: None
To: Steve Quint
Subject: ........technologies Before Swine
Message:
Well, I hope toilet paper makes it on the list of approved
basic ones that the third world is allowed!
Kids around the world want electricity for play station 2,
and bikes and well, everything on santas list. Which, when you start in with the list will eventually include
*) a job for dad,
8) a nice home with electricity

but the job will need airconditioning, and carpets and a car to drive there and....

but the house will need a lawnmower, and rake and curtains and...

Before you know it Steve, you end up with everyone living like Americans! And that is just working off santa's list!

Of course knowing human nature, they will be attacked by those
possessed in pursuit of money power and religion and all those new 'americans' will need thier own military and .......
To control tech. spread,
Santa must be stopped!

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Date: Sat, Dec 09, 2000 at 05:27:30 (GMT)
From: Stonor
Email: None
To: bill
Subject: 'Santa must be stopped!' No kidding!
Message:
But let me reassure you, the third world can buy toilet paper if they have the money. The quality of 'kleenex' is very poor, and imported costs about 5X what we pay, and is only available in two grocery stores (Wongs) which have armed guards - not uncommon. The family I lived with for a while in Lima only left toilet paper in the upstairs bathroom so that it wouldn't be stolen by guests! Japan seems to be behind their primary (if not only) 'modern technology' manufacturer, 'National' (TVs washing machines etc.).

Great post, thanks.

Anna

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Date: Wed, Dec 06, 2000 at 12:45:53 (GMT)
From: Salam
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: M everlasting wisdom
Message:
From ELK

WITHOUT PRICE

One thing, he said, is everlasting. You can buy many things in this world; a house, clothes, mangoes, but the eternal and everlasting is not for sale.This has the qualities of truth, consciousness and bliss, and is what gives us joy. It is endless; there is no end to it. And you cannot say that about a house, clothes or mangoes.

'My creator has made me so rich, that I don't even know how rich I am.'

What is the worth of one day? he asked. There are no diamonds or gold that can pay for one day. And how many days have we got, how many days are given to us? The master can show us how to truly savour each day.

I think he is due for an audit.

Also, on participation,

He said that participation was also a gift from the master as it enabled his students to express the joy they have received.

By his grace. No gratitude here.

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Date: Wed, Dec 06, 2000 at 18:24:12 (GMT)
From: Jerry
Email: None
To: Salam
Subject: M everlasting wisdom
Message:
Maharaji said: The master can show us how to truly savour each day.

Salam retorts: I think he is due for an audit.

Very funny, Salam. Really, I don't know if I read this right, but the way I see it, if Maharaji is claiming that he has the way to make life a beautiful journey, maybe we should do a survey of everyone who's received Knowledge and found it wanting, or of everyone who once believed he was God, only to wind up despising him like Anonymous who 'Hates Him!!!!!' I think you'd find a lot more people along these lines than you would people who are (superficially) savouring life like our friends over at ELK drooling spittle all over themselves prattling on about how oh so bootiful it is.

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Date: Wed, Dec 06, 2000 at 23:41:31 (GMT)
From: ham
Email: None
To: Jerry
Subject: And methinx the elk crowd doth protest too
Message:
much as well,
so that doesn't leave more than isolated individuals in my book,
and they were probably lucky by not being too close to it all, or were a little warped.
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Date: Wed, Dec 06, 2000 at 15:45:40 (GMT)
From: Steve Quint
Email: the_avenger55@hotmail.com
To: Salam
Subject: We're On The Same Wavelength Apparently
Message:
My 'dream of the night' last night was that I was auditing m. As you may now, I am an auditor by profession. Your psychic powers are frighteningly awesome. I spit on a picture of shri hans on my computer monitor recently, so I understand you throwing a pie at the screen. These Indian dudes are bad bad news.

Steve

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Date: Wed, Dec 06, 2000 at 16:04:19 (GMT)
From: Salam
Email: None
To: Steve Quint
Subject: You are scaring me
Message:
maybe we should have a pie throwing party?

Just a thought, nothing to worry about.

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Date: Wed, Dec 06, 2000 at 16:11:31 (GMT)
From: Steve Quint
Email: the_avenger55@hotmail.com
To: Salam
Subject: I'm Scaring Myself
Message:
You're in Australia, right? What city. I've never been to Australia. I had my first taste of Australian beer Monday and I liked it. Regards,

Steve

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Date: Wed, Dec 06, 2000 at 16:26:21 (GMT)
From: Salam
Email: None
To: Steve Quint
Subject: You have a problem
Message:
I am in Sydney. Nice place, but too wide spread.

How you've been keeping lately?

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Date: Wed, Dec 06, 2000 at 17:29:46 (GMT)
From: Steven Quint
Email: the_avenger55@hotmail.com
To: Salam
Subject: I have a problem
Message:
I'm in too much pain to answer you. I'm supremenly pissed off that the goofball formerly known as the 'perfect master' is still on the throne. I will not be at peace until that imposter is shown some justice.

Steve

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Date: Thurs, Dec 07, 2000 at 01:53:00 (GMT)
From: Salam
Email: None
To: Steven Quint
Subject: I have a problem
Message:
Well, look at it this way.

You can get totally pissed off with the way boofball is going, but really, there is not much one can do.(unless you feel like throwing a pie at him). One the other hand I think we are doing him a lot of damage on this forum and the other sites. Just think for a second why is he going back to India and Mauritus to give knowledge insted of doing it in his backyard. No one wants him, that should give you a lift.

Salam the lifter

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Date: Wed, Dec 06, 2000 at 06:00:51 (GMT)
From: Anonymous
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: I Hate Him!!!!!!!!
Message:
Please, you fat fuck, don't walk down the stairs in front of me because I will push and pray to God that you break your neck!!!!!

What's the difference between Maharaji and a bucket of shit?
The bucket!

I hate you, you cradle robbing, youth sucker, FRAUD!!!!!!!

Liar!

Pervert!

Napolean complex, small penis weilding, power hungry, Fucked Up, unintelligent, ignorant, immoral, undeveloped but very dangerous megalomaniac animal. I can think of many animals that are far better than you! Take the fish for instance or the worm.

Fly a plane why don't you? I only hope the odds are with me. Nothing better I could imagine seeing on the 10 o'clock news: terrible accident all aboard confirmed dead. You and your PAM's.

I really hate you. Only wish that your children continue to snort cocaine and produce more bastards and one nice big court case.

You can run but eventually it does catch up to one, doesn't it?

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Date: Wed, Dec 06, 2000 at 21:26:34 (GMT)
From: Sir Dave
Email: sirdavid12@hotmail.com
To: Anonymous
Subject: The British version
Message:
He's not very nice, is he. I'd be interested to hear your personal (or anyone elses) reasons why you hate Maharaji.

I think giving specific reasons for hating Maharaji is important. It's useful for people to know why he has engendered this kind of feeling. Why do people feel this personal hatred for the man? This is extremely valid.

This all needs to be explained, if only as a means of venting feelings. Also, when premies give the old whitewash, it's useful to know how Maharaji has really affected people as opposed to the cult spin. This can easily be retreaved at a later date by my search engine.

.. Dave

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Date: Wed, Dec 06, 2000 at 15:39:27 (GMT)
From: Gail
Email: None
To: Anonymous
Subject: I Hate Him!!!!!!!!
Message:
Well, there you have it!

However, wishing his children ill is a bit harsh, don't you think:

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Date: Wed, Dec 06, 2000 at 10:34:30 (GMT)
From: Jesus the Christ
Email: None
To: Anonymous
Subject: I .... Him!!!!!!!!
Message:
i drink whine.
every day
it's my blood.
i also eat bread.
somehow..by the grace o' Our....and
I did say our....
somehow.. this bread turns into my body.
however ..
the body and blood of Christ is not ...
well..
I BEG YOUR FORGIVENESS FOR MY PREACHING..
butt..
do you happen to have any ludes ?
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Date: Wed, Dec 06, 2000 at 15:53:07 (GMT)
From: Salam
Email: None
To: Jesus the Christ
Subject: I .... Him!!!!!!!!
Message:
I found poetry hard to eat. Yours sucks. Fuck off.
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Date: Wed, Dec 06, 2000 at 15:32:48 (GMT)
From: antimili
Email: None
To: Jesus the Christ
Subject: I .... do not love Him!!!!!!!! NT
Message:
nt
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Date: Wed, Dec 06, 2000 at 15:27:38 (GMT)
From: Tim G
Email: timgitti@indigo.ie
To: Anonymous
Subject: I .... Him!!!!!!!!
Message:
Maybe you had to get it off your chest....but I can't help feeling it is counterproductive vis-a-vis a browser to this site.I do agree that I would love to see m brought to book in the courts for ruining so many sincere peoples lives. Then again, Life is a risk and we are ultimately responsible for our own decisions...so maybe start the new day afresh and leave the past to the past. Beliefs divide people as do systems,religions and charismatic leaders. We must be our own leader .No man is good enough to be another's leader.
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Date: Wed, Dec 06, 2000 at 16:00:21 (GMT)
From: Salam
Email: None
To: Tim G
Subject: Why. you have a problem saying
Message:
Fuck you maharaji you pig, I hate you and all your grandparent and children's children. I do not. If that is what Anonymos feels like then he should be allowed to say it, also

maharaji sucks

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Date: Wed, Dec 06, 2000 at 18:08:12 (GMT)
From: Tim G
Email: timgitti@indigo.ie
To: Salam
Subject: Free Speech
Message:
Salaam Salam
Of course Anon is free to vent the pent.I just observed that it might be counterproductive. I don't hate m myself it's just that I feel he is at the very least a pest and a very underdeveloped/unrealised person...at worst a cunning fraud and some of the things that Anon says. But I'm talking strategy.
Salutations at the Lotus Gumboot and The Divine Slippers of Mata Ki Jai
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Date: Thurs, Dec 07, 2000 at 00:40:02 (GMT)
From: Salam
Email: None
To: Tim G
Subject: Free Speech
Message:
Why is it counterproductive. This place goes so wild sometime that you really do not to know about it. All the boofheads come together and start having a go at each other. Anyone walking in will thing that the forum is made for angry frustrated people that want to vent their angar. Yet things do go back to normal. Shitting on mahraji's face is the least of our problem. 5 to 1, you can not say fuck you maharaji.

Salam the snake from heaven

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Date: Thurs, Dec 07, 2000 at 03:32:36 (GMT)
From: Bai Ji
Email: None
To: Salam
Subject: Remember holy name, brothers! nt
Message:
he he he
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Date: Wed, Dec 06, 2000 at 00:27:04 (GMT)
From: G
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: Sai Baba exposé now on India-Today web site
Message:

The exposé:   A God Accused

Also:   Sathya Sai Baba Exposed: Cult, Magic, And Brainwashing

.

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Date: Wed, Dec 06, 2000 at 15:49:57 (GMT)
From: Gail
Email: None
To: G
Subject: Sai Baba exposé now on India-Today web site
Message:
Excerpt:

'Swami tells us not to look at the Internet but at the inner net.' And secondly, by posting sites that support Baba's teachings. One such site-The Sai Critic-urges devotees to believe only their experiences with Baba, stating, 'When doubt walks in through the front door, faith walks out of the back door.'

This is so much like Maharaji's trip, n'est pas? Everything Maharaji does is a lila--even the immoral stuff that he and his minions do are for a divine purpose. Pedophilia is sanctioned by sweeping it under the table.

Do not look at the net. Do not doubt. I am the Lord Thy God ...

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Date: Wed, Dec 06, 2000 at 08:30:34 (GMT)
From: toby
Email: None
To: G
Subject: Sai Baba exposé now on India-Today web site
Message:
does India-today know about the hamster and jagdeo etc.
i mean his whole story would give a nice series of articles
about another 'living god' .
Isn' it time to tear those bastards apart , even in India?
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Date: Thurs, Dec 07, 2000 at 17:36:49 (GMT)
From: Happy
Email: None
To: toby
Subject: Miragey on India Today
Message:
Great idea in principle, but Miragey is hardly known in India. Nobody knows about him, nobody could care less. There are literally thousands like him. Sai Baba was big, a few others, like Pilot Baba and Ammachi are quite big, but Miragey... he is a nobody there.
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Date: Wed, Dec 06, 2000 at 18:34:06 (GMT)
From: Jean-Michel
Email: jmkahn@club-internet.fr
To: toby
Subject: Would you email be before ?
Message:
There might be some intersting new stuff in store for them .....
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Date: Wed, Dec 06, 2000 at 23:18:54 (GMT)
From: bill
Email: None
To: Jean-Michel
Subject: Looming revelations JM? (nt)
Message:
sdfh
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Date: Wed, Dec 06, 2000 at 17:11:11 (GMT)
From: gerry
Email: None
To: toby
Subject: toby, this is an excellent idea
Message:
I'll bet that a well written, backed up story would be well received by India Today and stand a good chance at being published.
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Date: Wed, Dec 06, 2000 at 00:53:26 (GMT)
From: Peter Howie
Email: None
To: G
Subject: Freaky stuff
Message:
This bit floored me from its similarity to the Elan mob.

'The devotees are also countering the Internet war on two fronts. First, everybody is encouraged to shun the Internet. Explains Hal Honig, a senior Sai official in New York: 'Swami tells us not to look at the Internet but at the inner net.' And secondly, by posting sites that support Baba's teachings.

Cheers

Peter

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Date: Wed, Dec 06, 2000 at 12:13:37 (GMT)
From: Sir Dave
Email: None
To: Peter Howie
Subject: No more living gods
Message:
No more living gods now that the internet is here. King Canute knew he couldn't hold back the tide and he proved his point nicely.

What remain of the living gods haven't got the message yet. They are trying in a futile manner to hold back the surging tide of internet information. They'll never do it.

A new age is dawning. Hey, Rene - It's Springtime. Springtime for the human race.

.. Dave

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Date: Fri, Dec 08, 2000 at 01:06:30 (GMT)
From: Huh!?
Email: None
To: Sir Dave
Subject: Do you mean to say that ...
Message:
...now that we have the capability to be spammed by no end of uselss bullshit information; now that we can abuse, denegrate and publically humiliate anyone we want without being held accountable; now that every body with a computer can fancy themself a day trader and lose all they own in a matter of hours; now that on-line chat rooms provide another means to cheat on our spouses; now that we have such easy access to pornographic and hate related materials; now that we have yet another added headache of wondering what on-line garbage is influencing our children; now that we can spend our evenings glued to our CRTs instead of spending it with our families; now that assholes from all over the world have a means to meet, comiserate and plot to manifest their stupidity; now that we have an internet Dave it is 'springtime for the human race'?

Do you mind if I ask, were your parents related?

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Date: Sun, Dec 10, 2000 at 18:19:54 (GMT)
From: AJW
Email: None
To: Huh!?
Subject: What's your problem Huh?
Message:
Huh!?
It's not a book's fault if something nasty is printed in it. The book, like the internet, is just a medium for you and your fellow men and women to express themselves if they so wish.

There is a big difference though, you don't have to find a publisher to publish on the net. Anywone can do it. In that respect it's a wonderful leveller. See- your letter got published too Huh!? So did mine.

Sure you can find lots of nasty trash on the web if you go looking for it, but there's loads and loads of other stuff too- mainly different forms of information.

eAnth

(with acknowledgement to eDrek)

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Date: Sat, Dec 09, 2000 at 14:23:06 (GMT)
From: Deputy dog
Email: None
To: Huh!?
Subject: Huh!?, brilliant, I wish I'd written that!!!! (nt)
Message:
Your post was brilliant, absolutely brilliant. I'm going to download it and carry it around with me for a few days.
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Date: Fri, Dec 08, 2000 at 01:17:37 (GMT)
From: Sir Dave
Email: None
To: Huh!?
Subject: Global telepathy
Message:
What is in people's minds is on the internet for all to see. It's the nearest thing to global telepathy we've got. If you don't like it, you'll have to lump it. It's not going to go away now.

Sorry old chap.

My kids aren't interested in porn. They like Yahooligans. It's great for kids.

.. Dave

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Date: Fri, Dec 08, 2000 at 18:33:15 (GMT)
From: Huh?
Email: None
To: Sir Dave
Subject: Or is it amplified confusion
Message:
You miss my point 'old chap'. The internet is a fact i'm not denying - and I don't have to like it or lump it, by the way. It is you who seem to be in denial here. To raise such a flawed tool to such grandiose heights as to proclaim it bringing about 'springtime for the human race' is really stupid. The point of my post was to try and point out its flaws to you, which in my opinion definitely offsets it's good points.

For example, I'm happy your kids opt for 'Yahooligans' website over 'Hot College Coeds For Hire' but tell me, if you are so against child abuse how can you so gleefully support a vehicle that pedophiles use regularily to lure unsuspecting children into harm? Talk about having selective reasoning! You come out with guns blazing against pedophiles but raise to near divine standards a tool that facilitates heinous acts of pedophilia, and worse. That is just not very balanced of you Dave. I wonder if, God forbid, one of your children were to fall victim to coersion by an on-line predator you would hold the internet in such high regard. I suspect not.

Philosophically speaking, the internet will be used for both good and bad, like any tool created by man. It is its all pervasive nature that makes this reality particularily ominous. So when the verdict comes in on the internet, contrary to ushering in a 'springtime for the human race' I believe it will unfortunately have only compounded the confusion already existing.

And so old chap we are left with the harsh truth about the internet, or any other innovation created by man: until the human race changes what is at its core, it will unfortunately be business as usual on planet earth. If you don't believe me on this one Dave, let's wait and see.

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Date: Fri, Dec 08, 2000 at 22:01:50 (GMT)
From: Sir Dave
Email: None
To: Huh?
Subject: Or is it amplified confusion
Message:
Why do you want the human race to change what is at it's core? That's a most unreasonable thing to suggest. We're advanced apes. We can't magically transform ourselves into something we're not.

Anyone can have their say on the internet. What we have to deal with now is that very fact, which has never confronted humanity before - for now there is truly global free speach and anyone can listen.

No children should be allowed to meet strangers without their parent or other adult accompanying them. That's common sense. Of course parents have to guard against paedohpiles and just because someone appears OK on the net it doesn't mean they are. But such things occur in any media, such as children's magazines and penfriends, for instance.

And regarding confusion on the internet: you are also at complete liberty to publish what you want to on the net, to counter the confusion. And people will read it if you link it to the right places.

OK, I was being a little sarcastic when I mentioned 'Springtime for the human race'. If you're an old premie, you'll remember that quote by Rene Davis. But a new age is dawning.

.. Dave

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Date: Tues, Dec 05, 2000 at 21:07:24 (GMT)
From: G
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: Mean Genes (OT)
Message:
Here's an interesting site: Mean Genes

WARNING: Contains explicit chimp nudity.

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Date: Fri, Dec 08, 2000 at 23:15:05 (GMT)
From: Stonor
Email: None
To: G
Subject: I found the notes ...
Message:
The more I read, the more I know why I can't relate in certain ways to a lot of people. Sounds like the kind of book I should read. Some great links in the notes, but I didn't find the chimp nudity. :-(

Thanks G.

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Date: Sat, Dec 09, 2000 at 00:05:44 (GMT)
From: G
Email: None
To: Stonor
Subject: I found the notes ...
Message:
Maybe they had complaints, so they took off the nudity. We don't want children to see naked chimps now, do we? At least not masterbating and engaging in lesbian sex! Actually they were 'pigmy chimps' or bonobos (sp?).

I haven't check out the links yet.

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Date: Wed, Dec 06, 2000 at 18:04:07 (GMT)
From: Jerry
Email: None
To: G
Subject: Mean Genes (OT)
Message:
Looks like an interesting read, G. If I come across it in a bookstore, I might pick it up.

I finally finished the book, Why We Feel but, have to admit, it got pretty dense and wasn't a very enjoyable read for the most part. I still think the basic premise is an accurate one, that the reason we have feelings is because they helped us to adapt and survive, not because, as Maharaji contends, they're God's way of providing us a path back to His loving busom.

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Date: Thurs, Dec 07, 2000 at 00:09:50 (GMT)
From: ham
Email: None
To: Jerry
Subject: Great link as usual g
Message:
But re m/f, no wonder I've had less than my fair share,
facial asymmetry or what,
ahhh well,
in me next life as me ole guru used to say
before he admitted he didn't know
if it even existed,
even though we all knew he didn't really mean it about not knowing
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Date: Thurs, Dec 07, 2000 at 03:03:13 (GMT)
From: Stonor
Email: None
To: ham and G?
Subject: You looked 'symmetrical' to me!
Message:
Send me those pics of you again, ham, that I lost in the crash and burn! I didn't notice that one arm was longer than the other, or that your face is asymmetrical like mine is! (No you can't tell from my pic, I don't think - but you can if you look at each half of my face separately. I didn't find that much info about the book's content there - maybe I need to click around more. My first impression was that it was another gross over-simplification.
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Date: Thurs, Dec 07, 2000 at 03:05:03 (GMT)
From: Stonor
Email: None
To: ham and G
Subject: or should that be 'over-generalization'? (nt)
Message:
something like the statistically created 'normal'.
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Date: Thurs, Dec 07, 2000 at 01:02:04 (GMT)
From: G
Email: None
To: ham
Subject: symmetry
Message:
I think they make a bit too much out of symmetry, there are also other factors.

I've given up trying to figure out the next life, etc. question. Maybe I can pass myself off as the 'I don't know' guru, but I kind of doubt it.

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Date: Thurs, Dec 07, 2000 at 20:41:29 (GMT)
From: cq
Email: None
To: G
Subject: You mean you used to be indicisive ...
Message:
... but now you're not so sure?
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Date: Fri, Dec 08, 2000 at 23:53:49 (GMT)
From: G
Email: None
To: cq
Subject: I'm not sure what I mean. (NT)
Message:
nt
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Date: Mon, Dec 11, 2000 at 18:27:10 (GMT)
From: cq
Email: None
To: G
Subject: Hmmmm, there could be a market in that, G (nt) !
Message:
$$$$ $$$$

O

U

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Date: Tues, Dec 05, 2000 at 20:17:29 (GMT)
From: Sir Dave
Email: sirdavid12@hotmail.com
To: Everyone
Subject: Don't worry about Maharaji, premies
Message:
These perfect masters can get away with murder. Click here to see how a parallel universe Maharaji did just that.

This guy used to be a premie but then decided to strike out on his own. If I was being nasty, I'd say that he'd gotten some inspiration from Maharaji's father, perhaps?

But I'm not being nasty, so I won't say that.

.. Dave

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Date: Fri, Dec 08, 2000 at 00:12:03 (GMT)
From: TiM
Email: None
To: Sir Dave And All
Subject: Alternate Universe Maharaji dumber than Rawat!
Message:
I just read Sir Dave's statement about the other 'MaharajJi' being taken into court for murder. How dumb! Rawat simply used his highly developed yogic power to Give Harold Washington a major heart attack when Washington was the mayor of Chicago. Rawat thought Washington was creating to much interracial problems in Chicago. Jessee Jackson was on T.V. with Mayor Washington and laughng his head off at the 'pranks' Washington had pulled to upset the balance of power in Chicago. And for whatever other reasons, Rawat gave Washington a massive heart attack by long distance. Nobody can prove it. Ah yes, Rawat has those powers enjoyed by Sri Chinmoi, Harold Klemp, Padre Pio, and lots and lots of other people who meditate deeply and long enough. All those premies who say they still meditate seem suspicious to me when they don't mention the yogic powers they have developed as a side result of meditation. Any one can and does who is really into it. Even any of you couod who are reading this. How come no present premie or expremie ever mentions such a thing. It's real. And oh daddy oh is it dangerous. I believe Rawat doesn't resign as Lord because if he ever stopped going forward at his level of developement the horror for him would be unspeakable. Such is the fate that a only half Rodahami guru is cursed with. So goodmight all you expremie never practiced knowledge for real devotees. How I hated knowing all of you ego tripping assholes I met in the ashram system of DLM. Know I know where all you assholes went to. You went to the expremie website where you vomit daily just as you used to vomit in daily satsang.
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Date: Sat, Dec 09, 2000 at 17:33:28 (GMT)
From: Hal
Email: None
To: TiM
Subject: Alternate Universe Maharaji dumber than Rawat!
Message:
Hi Tim,

I can relate to what you just said about the exes here being the ones who weren't really having an experience in the old days and giving non satsang. I actually thought something similar when I first started reading here.

I thought these guys who now say that they never experienced anything with meditation and yet gave 'satsang' were the worst type of hypocrites.

Give it a chance though Tim. Why don't you tell us some more about your experiences? What do you feel now about your path of self discovery ?

There are quite a few exes who post here who are not totally dismissive of alternative realities etc..

Best wishes
hal

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Date: Mon, Dec 11, 2000 at 03:43:33 (GMT)
From: gerry
Email: None
To: Hal
Subject: Yo Hal, listen up, yer too hard on the lads
Message:
I thought these guys who now say that they never experienced anything with meditation and yet gave 'satsang' were the worst type of hypocrites.

Steve, I think I can answer this and put to rest this accusation of rank hypocrisy on the part of premies who experienced little or nothing in meditation, which encompassed a lot of people, let me assure you.

First of all, this was (is) a bhakti cult based on a 'love' feeling one gets when focused on the object of your devotion. Secondly, the atmosphere of satsang generated a lot of these bhakti feelings and this was their (our) source of inspiration for 'satsang,' not the transcendental experiences of meditation.

I get a sense of 'superiority' from your post. The fact is some people just are not 'hardwired' for transcendental experiences. They may well experience strong bhakti devotional experiences in the absence of cosmic meditation and still be sincere in their satsang.

Am I being clear? Have I misread you? Shit, anyway you slice it, it was still an insidious cult and I actually feel sorry for those who persisted because of, or in anticipation of, these meditation experiences. The whole reason I bailed out was because I sincerely wanted these meditation trips but wasn't hardwired for them. And the bhakti rush was a little thin for me with Prempal at the helm. I felt no attraction towards him but the love and the vibe I felt in satsang was enough to keep me going. For a short while that is.

I think you are being way too harsh on my type...

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Date: Mon, Dec 11, 2000 at 08:07:42 (GMT)
From: Hal
Email: None
To: gerry
Subject: Yeah - Sorry man
Message:
I wasn't meaning to be too hard on youse guys. When I first came on here I did think that maybe a lot of people here were the one's who used to create the bad vibes around K & M . Then again I was still a premie at that time and I was antagonistic towards exes.

You are absolutely right in making your points about the Back Tee experience. I didn't mean to say that I still see it that way now , I don't . I was trying to connect and identify with this dude's feelings and encourage him to not go off in a huff because he couldn't relate to anyone here.

My views on the whole thing are in line with yours now Gerry and I now think it was all a self delusion and mass belief load of bollox.

Cheers
hal

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Date: Wed, Dec 06, 2000 at 14:39:02 (GMT)
From: AJW
Email: None
To: Sir Dave
Subject: Great defence
Message:
Hi Sir Dave,

I loved the guy's defence- Maharaji couldn't possibly have beaten the guy from Ghana to death with his spiritual stick, because he'd already beaten three other people with the same stick that day.

Didn't Maharaji's father used to beat premies with a big stick too?

Anth who was hit with a slipper once.

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Date: Tues, Dec 05, 2000 at 14:04:29 (GMT)
From: Steve Quint
Email: the_avenger55@hotmail.com
To: Everyone
Subject: Wisdom Of The Ages
Message:
From enjoyinglife.org

Mauritius Nov. 26, 2000

A PIZZA INTELLECT
You can expand your intellect like pizza dough. You can throw it into the air, let it rotate and expand. When you expand it too much, you might end up with your hand going through a hole in the centre.

Fuck, I finally almost achieved enlightenment after reading this. Soooo close.

Steve

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Date: Tues, Dec 05, 2000 at 17:00:08 (GMT)
From: Gregg
Email: None
To: Steve Quint
Subject: His Point
Message:
Maharaj Ji is making his same old point here: using the intellect is dangerous. If you use your mind too much to try to figure things out, negative results will ensue. (Brain damage? Mental illness? Depression? A hole in the head?)

Anyway, the essential point is that if premies really tried to figure things out, especially things like Knowledge and the Master and the whole cultish tar baby, Prem Pal's cash cow might dry up.

Don't use your mind! It's like playing with fire! Remember the rotting vegetables!

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Date: Fri, Dec 08, 2000 at 01:45:06 (GMT)
From: Deputy Dog
Email: None
To: Gregg
Subject: Gregg, the intellect is not dangerous
Message:
just limited. The most important experiences human beings cherish most - love, happiness, sex, soul, the appreciation of a sunset - cannot be understood by the intellect.

Have you ever noticed that during the best times you ever had, you were not there, i.e. you intellect. Jogging, hitting the perfect golf shot, playing the piano - athletes and musicians call it the 'zone.'

No, the mind is not bad, just limited. I gave the mind a pretty good shot. So why not have a mind and access to the deeper part of us that lies beneath the surface.

Remeber, painted cakes do not satisfy hunger. The menu is not the meal. The map is not the territory. A wet bird never flies at night.

Deputy Dog the mystic zealot

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Date: Sat, Dec 09, 2000 at 02:23:58 (GMT)
From: Stonor
Email: None
To: Deputy Dog
Subject: nothing to do with 'k'
Message:
Have you ever noticed that during the best times you ever had, you were not there, i.e. you intellect. Jogging, hitting the perfect golf shot, playing the piano - athletes and musicians call it the 'zone.'

I was always 'there' when I played the piano, DD - totally with the piano - not in the 'zone', but more a kind of 'oneness' in 'twoness'. I also had no concern about the audience or my 'performance'. It had nothing to do with 'k'. What's your point?

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Date: Fri, Dec 08, 2000 at 02:05:21 (GMT)
From: gErRy
Email: None
To: Deputy Dog
Subject: Well you got this one thing right...
Message:
I gave the mind a pretty good shot.

What'd ya use, a scud missile?

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Date: Fri, Dec 08, 2000 at 02:16:39 (GMT)
From: Deputy Dog
Email: None
To: gErRy
Subject: Well you got this one thing right...
Message:
No, 26 years of my life.
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Date: Fri, Dec 08, 2000 at 02:18:59 (GMT)
From: gerry
Email: None
To: Deputy Dog
Subject: You're too clever
Message:
What the hell does that mean?
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Date: Fri, Dec 08, 2000 at 02:54:00 (GMT)
From: Deputy Dog
Email: None
To: gerry
Subject: It's not rocket science gerry
Message:
Me: I gave the mind a pretty good shot.
You: What'd ya use, a scud missile?
Me: No, 26 years of my life.

What that means gerry is that I gave the mind a pretty good shot for 26 years of my life. I tried books, drugs, etc and was still drawn to look for something else, something more, something deeper.

God has given us a dark wine so potent that, drinking it, we leave the two worlds.
Rumi

I really don't expect you to understand this either. Only those who have experienced release from the tyranny of the mechanical mind will know.

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Date: Sat, Dec 09, 2000 at 02:30:10 (GMT)
From: Stonor
Email: None
To: Deputy Dog
Subject: I don't understand ...
Message:
I don't understand what drugs had to do with using your mind.

Do you understand the Rumi quote? Is the dark wine 'k'? I think not. What are the 'two worlds' that you have left behind, DD?

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Date: Wed, Dec 13, 2000 at 02:13:07 (GMT)
From: Deputy Dog
Email: None
To: Stonor
Subject: To Stonor - I don't understand ...
Message:
I don't understand what drugs had to do with using your mind.
Drugs are a way of souping up the mind, IMO. The days I was into drugs were strange days writ large. Ask Jim Morrison.

Do you understand the Rumi quote? Is the dark wine 'k'? I think not.
Yes.

What are the 'two worlds' that you have left behind, DD?
Duality?

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Date: Wed, Dec 13, 2000 at 02:56:04 (GMT)
From: Stonor
Email: None
To: Deputy Dog
Subject: To Deputy Dog - I don't agree ...
Message:
Re: drugs - soup or scrambled eggs? - it's not trying the mind as I see it, it's trying drugs - I've done 'em too, but I never thought of it as 'trying the mind'. And yes, Jim Morrison broke on through to the other side - the sui'cide'. (I know, we've been there, but I'm surprised how often you refer to Morrison)

I've read a lot of other related books about the 'dark draught', and I am quite certain that it is not 'k' - not that meditation doesn't have a role in just about every spiritual practice - I do it myself. You are, of course, entitled to your interpretation, or is it your guru's? From what I've understood, the 'dark draught' has more to do with conscious suffering, and the disolution of our delusions as opposed to 'enjoying' life, especially while most of the planet suffers in ways that we can't imagine.

This we probably agree on to some extent, but duality is not two worlds, it is a way of seeing the world. I also doubt that you have entirely left duality behind - from what I've read that's a rather uncommon feat. I've read a number of interesting comments on this - this is one aspect where proper use of the mind we were born with can be useful - reading and reflection. I don't believe your guru mentions the 'higher mind', nor the fact that we are generally '3-brained' creatures.

Take care Deputy Dog, and thanks for responding.

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Date: Tues, Dec 05, 2000 at 15:51:00 (GMT)
From: AJW
Email: None
To: Steve Quint
Subject: So that's why...
Message:
...the Buddha had tomato, mushrooms and mozerella all over his living room wall.

Anth the Enlightened with Extra Olives

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Date: Tues, Dec 05, 2000 at 19:38:49 (GMT)
From: Steve Quint
Email: the_avenger55@hotmail.com
To: AJW
Subject: You Lived Dougerously, Anth
Message:
Didn't you worry when you taught the kids that the dough of their minds would break and you would get the blame for too much kneading and throwing? Wow, that was a risky job!

Steve

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Date: Tues, Dec 05, 2000 at 21:48:08 (GMT)
From: Cynthia
Email: None
To: AJW
Subject: Rotten Vegetables are Good Things....
Message:
Hi,

As far as I'm concerned, and based on my experience as an organic gardener, rotten veggies are invaluable to making a correct compost. A bit of soil, old cow shit, leaves, and hay, those veggies make the best soil fertilizer which then grows better vegetables year after year after year.

Those veggies evolve:)))))

Nice--the forum's open again.

Cyn

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Date: Sat, Dec 09, 2000 at 03:47:23 (GMT)
From: Deputy Dog
Email: None
To: Cynthia
Subject: Rotten Vegetables are Good Things?
Message:
I think what Maharaji meant by that is, 'the bigger they are the harder they fall.'
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Date: Sat, Dec 09, 2000 at 08:38:44 (GMT)
From: AJW
Email: None
To: Deputy Dog
Subject: Falling
Message:
Falling from where to where Dog?

Anth the autumn leaf

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Date: Tues, Dec 05, 2000 at 19:53:40 (GMT)
From: AJW
Email: None
To: Steve Quint
Subject: It's OK Steve (corny post)
Message:
I wasn't a breadhead.

Anth the Flour Child

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Date: Tues, Dec 05, 2000 at 20:08:14 (GMT)
From: Papa Dum
Email: None
To: AJW
Subject: using your loaf, ol' chapati? (nt)
Message:
Nan better.
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Date: Wed, Dec 06, 2000 at 07:16:33 (GMT)
From: janet
Email: None
To: Papa Dum
Subject: the pillsbury dough boy warned you (nt)
Message:
he knows all about dough and what its uses are
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Date: Wed, Dec 06, 2000 at 13:02:46 (GMT)
From: Salam
Email: None
To: janet
Subject: I hate pizza
Message:
and I do not think I will eat it anymore.
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Date: Tues, Dec 05, 2000 at 08:28:31 (GMT)
From: Astro
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: Christ Rules
Message:
I love to write these little letters. It brings out the very best of the antichrist spirit that dwells in all of you. Blessed is Israel and blessed is the true Christ. Stumble over the definition of Christ while helping hands reach out to bring food, medicine, clothing, and housing to those in need. Where were you or are you as the situation worsens in congo? Were you arguing over the Lord of the universe and the cosmic fart, while rwandans were being slaughtered, children having thier legs hacked off to thier knees. Or were you just reminding yourself it was thier karma.
Most or many of you are so sickening. Why aren't you organizing to buy a home to shelter the homeless? Did you ever visit an old lonely person in a nursing home abandoned to die? Your too busy bickering over little negatives and how Maharaji messed up your lives.
When is the last time their was any gratitude for the blessings you do have in your lives? Yeah that's what christ taught, but you want to look at the Jim and Tammy Bakers and the Falwells and the rest of the visible hypocrites. DO SOMETHING! Walk the walk, help someone in need.
'They that abide in my Name shall live forever' Know that name by grace of God. Or just continue to bicker and exchange cheap shots and be no accounts. College degree or not, intelligent or not your lives are useless if you can't do something good.
You that hate Christ hate what Christ stood for, and that was for love. Instead of getting off your lazy asses you'll probably want to know what I've done lately or look for another wsomething about christians or Christ to knock.
There's no hope for any of you if you can't snap out of your nowhere mental patterns. Be productive of something good, look for the good in all including Christ, Christians , Moslems, Maharaji. Yeah even him too.
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Date: Tues, Dec 05, 2000 at 07:25:43 (GMT)
From: Scott T.
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: Dazzling Media
Message:
A list of stellar performances:

While waiting for every judicial decision they speculate freely about what might happen, without any insight into what *ought to* happen.

When the decision comes down they initially misinterpret it, and then *completely* fail to notice that *none* of their speculation was accurate. Zero.

After the decision they opine as to how 'It's far more important to the political situation than the legal situation.' because they frequently fancy that they know something about the political situation, and it's so bloomin' obvious they know nothing about the legal situation.

And since they also know nothing about the political situation, dueling nincompoops seems the logical thing to do.

'The first signs that cracks in the facade are beginning to appear,' is media talk for 'If I keep saying this long enough someone is bound to eventually think I've known it all along.'

The Public has been running out of patience since the second day after the election, as though we ought to give a shit what people who never cared about anything care about anyway (especially since the votes are already cast).

Although the fundamental premise of the Republican objection to a hand count--that random errors will mysteriously accrue to the benefit of Democrats--is so patently silly a five-year-old could see the fallacy, not one single media pundit or expert seems to have noticed, in the 3.5 weeks since the election.

etc., etc., etc., etc.,

--Scott

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Date: Wed, Dec 06, 2000 at 18:46:20 (GMT)
From: Jerry
Email: None
To: Scott T.
Subject: Dazzling Media
Message:
Scott,

Did you see the expert on the Votomatic during the hearings this past weekend? He said that in a close election, a hand recount is in order, but not for dimpled ballots. He finds it hard to believe that if a voter intended to vote for someone he would leave an indent, but might leave a hanging or swinging chad.

But what perplexed me is what he had to say about hanging chads folding back into the hole they were punched from, and thereby counting as an undervote. This, to me, invalidates Miami-Dade's method of doing a hand recount where they separate undervotes from all others. What if during the previous machine counts, the chad wasn't covering the hole it was punched from, but was counted as a vote. Now, during a later count, if it's separated as an undervote because it swung back into the hole, it becomes a vote being counted twice. Just another example of why a handcount of machine ballots should not be undertaken, not if the machines are shown to be in good working order, which they were in all the counties they're being contested.

And you've really got to hang it up with this equal dispersion of unintended dimples. I mean, even a five year old could see how silly that is.

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Date: Wed, Dec 06, 2000 at 21:09:26 (GMT)
From: Scott T.
Email: None
To: Jerry
Subject: Dazzling Media
Message:
Jerry:

As I recall, the Votomatic expert was compelled to admit that he had represented to the Dade County Board that chad buildup might keep voters from punching through. I don't believe he ever stated that indented chads would not occur, and might not be an indication of a valid vote. I think he was arguing only that if indented chads occur only in the Presidential column that this was not necessarily an intended vote for President. I pretty much buy that. If the only indented chad is in the Presidential column then the voter's intent can't be determined. This doesn't mean that it's necessarily a problem from a statistical standpoint (see below).

And you've really got to hang it up with this equal dispersion of unintended dimples. I mean, even a five year old could see how silly that is.

I don't know what an 'unintended dimple' is, but as a general rule any 'additive error' where a non-vote is mistakenly read as a vote will be unbiased. I don't see any reason to 'give it up,' since it is undeniably true. It doesn't matter whether the error occurs as a result of mistakenly reading an indented chad as a vote, or any other sort of error. I don't get your point here. If an event is randomly distributed between two outcomes then it is as likely to effect one as the other.

Clearly the issue is whether or not the voter's intent can be inferred. The statute doesn't recognize the concept of a 'benign error.' I only point it out in order to calm down some of the rhetoric. Republicans seem to believe that these errors will migrate inexplicably to the Gore side, which is just needlessly raising the decibel level of the dispute.

There are a number of theoretical problems with Dade's method of manually counting the undervote. However, if they use the machine vote count obtained at the same time that they separate the undervote then that would eliminate the problem you raise. There is another potential problem having to do with mistakenly counting over-votes as valid votes, in a multiple candidate race. I don't know enough about the machines to know whether that theoretical problem is real. Given that the Votomatic company advises the procedure that Dade intended to use (provided they use the concurrent machine vote count) as a way of increasing accuracy, I think it is probably *not* a problem.

--Scott

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Date: Thurs, Dec 07, 2000 at 02:37:59 (GMT)
From: Jerry
Email: None
To: Scott T.
Subject: Dazzling Media
Message:
As I recall, the Votomatic expert was compelled to admit that he had represented to the Dade County Board that chad buildup might keep voters from punching through. I don't believe he ever stated that indented chads would not occur, and might not be an indication of a valid vote. I think he was arguing only that if indented chads occur only in the Presidential column that this was not necessarily an intended vote for President.

One of us is recalling this wrong, Scott. I'm talking about the big fella who's now a rancher who used to design the 'machine' which he said is actually a 'voting device'. I recall no mention, at all, in his testimony about a president's column, nor of him being compelled to admit that chad buildup would cause a dimpled ballot. I do recall him saying that it didn't take much in the way of pressure on a chad to indent it. I also recall him scoffing at the idea that a voter who placed his ballot properly in the Votomatic would wind up with an indented chad if he intended to vote for that candidate. He did say that if a voter was dumb enough to place the ballot on top of the machine instead of in it, a consistently dimpled ballot would, or might, occur. This is what they found out to be true in tests they ran before releasing the Votomatic to the public. He also said it's unlikely that buildup would occur in one column, because of the way chads spread out in the well once they were pushed into it. There was a lame attempt by one of Gore's lawyers to prove that such a buildup would occur if voters consistently pushed the stylus on an angle to the left toward the President's column. Uh, huh. Yeah, right. I'm convinced. Sure.

I don't know what an 'unintended dimple' is, but as a general rule any 'additive error' where a non-vote is mistakenly read as a vote will be unbiased.

In your dreams. Based on what statistics? Doesn't some pattern have to be found to be true before it can be determined what outcomes will be? My sister was once an actuary. She had the less than cheerful responsibility of predicting, for the company she worked for, how many people would die in the coming year of what causes and how much it would cost in insurance claims. I think she based her figures on actual past occurences, something like, well, so many people died the last so and so years of this disease, so it's probable that, given the statistics, so many people are going to croak because of it this year.

So, where are your statistics, Scott? How do they prove the probability of an even count for all candidates? I really think you're way out to lunch on this one. You want to ram probability and statistics down my throat that you've got the formula that proves this is true, and in a previous post chastised me that you're not going to take time out to teach ignorant me probability and statistics. That's a good copout, Scott, but even unknowledgeble me is pretty certain that probabilities are based on statistics, and in this case, you have no statistics at all to back up your probabilities, which probably aren't probable at all.

Republicans seem to believe that these errors will migrate inexplicably to the Gore side, which is just needlessly raising the decibel level of the dispute.

Yes, they do. They don't want to take any chances, and there's just no way to determine what a dimpled ballot is anyway. That's why, in Palm Beach, much to their credit, they decided not to include them in their handcount.

However, if they use the machine vote count obtained at the same time that they separate the undervote then that would eliminate the problem you raise.

Scott, there's just no way to know if a hanging chad is counted as a vote once, and as an undervote a second time, the way they can swing this way and that through repeated handling and processing through the machine as they have been.

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Date: Thurs, Dec 07, 2000 at 05:14:07 (GMT)
From: Scott T.
Email: None
To: Jerry
Subject: Hangers
Message:
Scott, there's just no way to know if a hanging chad is counted as a vote once, and as an undervote a second time, the way they can swing this way and that through repeated handling and processing through the machine as they have been.

Thinking this over a bit it occurs to me that the problem with hangers is not the undervote, but the unseen overvote. This is one kind of machine generated error that *would* result in a biased count. For instance there may be a certain percentage of voters who voted for both Gore and Buchanan, but failed to punch through all the way on one so that it's a hanger. When the card goes through the 'door' on the hanger in the Buchanan column is closed, so it is read as a vote for Gore. I know of no way to correct this sort of error short of a hand count. On the other hand, it's only relevant if there are more than two candidates in the race. If there are only two, then all overvotes were for both Bush and Gore, so again which one happens to be the hanger would not ordinarily be biased. Maybe left-handed voters are more likely to punch through under one column than the other or something but that's getting really picky. You're talking about a diminishingly small percentage of a diminishingly small percentage. Anyway, this all occurs in a machine count, not a hand count.

So, not even all of the additive errors produced in a machine count are benign...

--Scott

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Date: Thurs, Dec 07, 2000 at 04:31:12 (GMT)
From: Scott T.
Email: None
To: Jerry
Subject: Dazzling Media
Message:
I recall no mention, at all, in his testimony about a president's column, nor of him being compelled to admit that chad buildup would cause a dimpled ballot.

He also said it's unlikely that buildup would occur in one column, because of the way chads spread out in the well once they were pushed into it.

Now, why in the world would anyone care whether or not buildup would occur under one column unless they were interested in whether an indented chad in one column (the Presidential column) could be evidence of a vote with the rest of the ballot punched through?

Yeah, I recall the guy saying that the reservoir in his machine was too big to allow the requisite buildup to occur, but he did admit that such buildup would be possible in 4 or 5 years in the Pollstar machine, which has a much smaller reservoir.

You want to ram probability and statistics down my throat that you've got the formula that proves this is true, and in a previous post chastised me that you're not going to take time out to teach ignorant me probability and statistics. That's a good copout, Scott, but even unknowledgeble me is pretty certain that probabilities are based on statistics, and in this case, you have no statistics at all to back up your probabilities, which probably aren't probable at all.

Predicting events with a non-random cause, especially involving human behavior, is a whole different game. It has nothing to do with this situation. I answered your previous questions about this, but you probably didn't read that response. The probability of obtaining a 'heads' or 'tails' in a coin toss can be assumed to be 0.5, in which case half will be heads and half tails. You could either weigh the coin to determine whether it is symmetric, or you could toss it 1,000 times. Why would an unintended indentation on a ballot be any different? More specifically, why would you *assume* it's more likely to be in a *Gore* column? Now perhaps there's a reason why one column would be more likely to get an indented chad than another column, and perhaps that favored-by-the-gods column has Gore's name on it. But even in that case it's no worse than flipping a coin. So, you just made the case that the only reason Republicans don't want to look any closer in Florida (as you say 'not take an chances') is simply because they happen to be ahead. They don't seem to have the same qualms about looking more closely in New Mexico. I'm just one of those crazy people who thinks that all the attention and money and effort of this election entitles us to take a closer look *in both states.* To hell with what the candidates want.

Scott, there's just no way to know if a hanging chad is counted as a vote once, and as an undervote a second time, the way they can swing this way and that through repeated handling and processing through the machine as they have been.

So what? You're only running them through once. At that time you get a count of votes through the machine for those 'hangers with the door open.' At the same time the ballots that were seen as undervotes on *that same pass* are separated out, and a certain percentage of those will be 'hangers with the door closed.' You look at them by hand, and once those are recovered you've recovered them all. It seems pretty simple to me. Oddly, that's exactly what the manufacturer recommends.

--Scott

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Date: Wed, Dec 06, 2000 at 19:18:47 (GMT)
From: cq
Email: None
To: Jerry
Subject: a five year old knows this one
Message:
'how many beans make five?'

Ah, yes, grasshopper, but how many votes?

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Date: Tues, Dec 05, 2000 at 20:38:30 (GMT)
From: Sir Dave
Email: None
To: Scott T.
Subject: Dazzling Media
Message:
What happened to those thousands of ballots where the Jewish population had voted wrongly for that Pat Buchanan bloke?

I no longer understand anything about what's happening over there but I've not heard these voters or ballots mentioned for ages.

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Date: Tues, Dec 05, 2000 at 21:16:11 (GMT)
From: Scott T.
Email: None
To: Sir Dave
Subject: Dazzling Media
Message:
David:

There was a ruling in the lower court to the effect that even if the ballots were illegal the judge could not consider a remedy. Subsequently an appeals court ruled that the ballots where not illegal, even if they were confusing. At least I think that's what happened. Things are pretty confusing. But what had me bent out of shape is that that the Rs seemed to think it appropriate do ridicule these voters, rather than express any legitimate concern.

--Scott

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Date: Tues, Dec 05, 2000 at 18:00:20 (GMT)
From: Joe
Email: None
To: Scott T.
Subject: Dazzling Media
Message:
I agree that the media, as usual, isn't doing so great these days. I sort of had to stop watching (now that I got cable) because it's so stoooopid. But Gore isn't very good at utilizing the media to his advantage, and his appearance on 60 Minutes wasn't much help.

Al Gore's stiffness and lack of spontaneity haven't helped in his pleas to the public for patience as he has pursued hand recounts as well as the legal contest. The staged, televised conference call between Gore and Lieberman and Daschle and Gephardt, meant to show us that the Democrats are behind Gore, was like a piece of propaganda out of the former Soviet Union. And in Gore's speeches he never clearly lays out his case, often making his lawyers look like more compelling candidates than he is. Why the hell is he like that? This has been his problem through the whole campaign.

But the Bush team's tactics have been far more disingenuous and destructive. While George W. idles his time away playing with his dog at his ranch, James Baker and company attacks the process as illegitimate when it doesn't go their way. When the Florida Supreme Court ruled against them, they hauled the candidate in front of the cameras, where he read from teleprompters and demonized the court, but it was shocking how inept he was. While Gore has sought to get hand counts done quickly, the Republican strategy has been to bludgeon the credibility of everything from the hand counts themselves to the court decisions surrounding them, hoping the American people will grow tired and submit to Bush out of frustration.

And I agree with you that the 24-hour television coverage of this marathon election has only aided Bush family justice in this regard. From the beginning of the post-election period, TV commentators have been saying the public will soon grow tired of the process, a drumbeat that grows louder and louder even as the public holds out through each passing day. Even now, after the certification, as polls show people are beginning to believe that a Bush win is inevitable, an NBC news poll shows that the country is split 49-49 over whether or not Gore should concede. But the commentators also point to other polls, like the CNN/USA Today poll taken before Gore's televised speech, which indicates 56 percent of the citizenry think Gore should concede.

If they can't call up a poll, they always have their own holier-than-thou intuition, all of which serves to sway the public to demand that Gore throw in the towel. Perhaps the media types are pissed that they didn't get their long sought after vacations after Election Day, or maybe they're sick of this story and see a ratings disaster if people lose interest if it drags on. Whatever the reasons, they're helping to whip up the resentment and desire for resolve that the Bush handlers are counting on so that they can get this thing done, get those keys to the transition office, and run Bill Clinton out of town once and for all.

I think it's about over, though. The Florida Supreme Court got a very clear message from the Supremes. They can't rely on the Florida Consitution for their decision, only on the legislation. I think in their earlier ruling, the over-riding principle was the state constitution, about the need to count ever vote, but that isn't relevent here, according to the Supremes. The Florida Court doesn't want to be overturned, so I think they will be very cautious. And I don't think they are about to overrule Sauls, given that such a decision would go the the US Supreme Court as well.

Seminole County is a wild card, but I doubt that judge will throw out all the absentee ballots. I suspect she will provide some lesser remedy that won't change the election outcome. Barring some kind of miracle, which could happen, I think it's basically over for Gore.


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Date: Wed, Dec 06, 2000 at 02:32:01 (GMT)
From: Rick
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: Dazzling Media
Message:
...it was shocking how inept he was.

Can you imagine Bush trying to broker a deal between Yasser Arafat and the prime minister of Israel? What a joke.

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Date: Wed, Dec 06, 2000 at 05:27:22 (GMT)
From: Scott T.
Email: None
To: Rick
Subject: Dazzling Media
Message:
Yeah, but unfortunately it's not a *funny* joke. In reality he'd delegate. Conderisa[sp?] Rice is extremely clever. She's almost as smart as Tom Friedman.
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Date: Wed, Dec 06, 2000 at 06:08:38 (GMT)
From: Rick
Email: None
To: Scott T.
Subject: Dazzling Media
Message:
Hopefully he'd delegate. What if he doesn't? We're banking on that he'll know his limit. You're right... it isn't funny.
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Date: Tues, Dec 05, 2000 at 21:31:21 (GMT)
From: Scott T.
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: Dazzling Media
Message:
Joe:

I still think the odds are 50/50. Agree with most of what you said, except:

And I don't think they are about to overrule Sauls, given that such a decision would go the the US Supreme Court as well.

They pretty much have to overrule some of the Sauls verdict because it's patently perverse. And the Supremes have already signaled that they don't relish a review of the State Supreme Court unless there's a clear federal issue involved. They've refused cert on the consitutionality of the manual count gambit, and they sure as hell aren't going to get into the morass of Florida law and precedent on election contests.

The Supremes might get involved if the Florida Legislature assigns it's own electors prior to Dec. 12th. There's a lot of disagreement on whether they're authorized to do that. And again, provided Gore gets a favorable ruling at some point I think the delay of game tactics begin to favor him.

I think the issue in Seminole and Martin Counties may come down to whether a dual standard was used in dealing with Republican and Democrat applications. I don't know the facts because the media isn't yet conscious enough to dig them up, but that would seem to be a far more explosive issue than whether or not someone filled out some Social Security numbers for someone else. And even though the Gore legal team is not participating in these suits, the Bush legal team certainly is.

--Scott

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Date: Tues, Dec 05, 2000 at 22:05:27 (GMT)
From: Joe
Email: None
To: Scott T.
Subject: Dazzling Media
Message:
They pretty much have to overrule some of the Sauls verdict because it's patently perverse.

That's a little strong, Scott. You might disagree with it, but I wouldn't call the decison 'perverse.' I disagree with it too, but I think it was a close call. He said there wasn't enough proof that a recount would change the outcome of the election.

I don't know what the Fla Supreme Court might do, but most of the time appeals courts are loathe to overturn findings of fact, as opposed to findings of law, and the lower court ruling was mainly a finding of fact. Since they didn't hear the witnesses it's very hard to overrule findings of fact. They might, but I doubt it. Plus, we are in a different situation now. There is a very real possibility that if the recount is allowed, Florida risks losing its electoral votes. That has to weigh on the court as a practical matter and if they overrule the lower court, and they start counting, god knows how many ballots, Florida might miss the Dec. 18, and almost certainly miss the December 12, deadlines.

The most Gore might hope for is a counting of the uncounted ballots in Dade County. I don't think Palm Beach is going to get counted again. And of course, if the Florida Supremes reverse themselves based on the obvious direction of the US Supreme Court, then the Broward recount is thrown out and Bush is back to a 930 lead. That's going to be hard to make up in Dade County, which only went slightly, I think by about 5 points, for Gore and isn't the Democratic powerhouse like Broward, which only recouped 567 for Gore, despite overwhelming Democratic pluralities, and even using the 'dimpled chad' rule.

So, I don't think it's unreasonable for Sauls to rule that Gore isn't likely to make up the difference.

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Date: Wed, Dec 06, 2000 at 05:20:08 (GMT)
From: Scott T.
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: Dazzling Media
Message:
Joe:

If you think through the logic used by the Bush people there really isn't a situation where its practical or permissible to do a manual recount. By their logic there isn't enough time for it before a contest, so if a canvassing board decides not to do it on that basis (as did Dade County) then it becomes impossible to have them do it during the contest phase because you have to prove abuse of discretion. Well, they used their discretion to note that the didn't have time for it, and that's clearly not 'abuse' so... That sort of pretzel logic is just plain perverse, no matter how you look at it.

So, the legal basis for the ruling was muck. The only problem with the 'facts' is that no one bothered to make a statistically robust prediction about the effect of a recount. A big 'DUH' on that one for the Gore legal team. I prepare statistical evidence for court proceedings, so I was probably the only person in the country watching and understanding that testimony. The Gore expert provided enough evidence that a statistically savvy judge could probably make the right inferences... but that's like expecting a monkey to sing opera.

Now, about the supposed deadlines: the only one that's really important is Jan. 5th (3rd?) when Congress has to certify which set it will accept. The only significance of Dec. 12, is that's the end of the 'safe harbor,' so after that it falls to Congress. Florida is in little danger of losing it's electors. That's just spin. If there are two sets of Florida electors on Jan. 5 then both houses of Congress have to agree. If they don't (which is very likely) then the default kicks in. And the default is the set that was most recently certified by the executive branch. If the Florida legislature certifies the Bush electors, and Jeb Bush is under court order to certify the Gore electors, then the Gore electors are the ones certified by Congress. This is all according to Norm Ornstein, who wrote the book on the electoral college. It appears that no one in this miserable media has thought this through.

I'm not sure what happens if the Florida Legislature certifies before Dec. 12th. Ostensibly this is within the safe harbor, but I'm not sure they are allowed to do that under Florida law. It's a murky area. Laurence Tribe thinks they can't... but he's not sure either. One thing is for sure: If the Florida legislature overrules the voters of Florida then the Republicans will have won the battle... but will almost certainly lose the war. Even though the media is skipping over a lot of stuff now it will tend to bubble up and clarify over the next few years. The Republicans will find themselves looking into the abyss. The only real problem I have with this outcome is that the Presidency itself may be seriously harmed.

--Scott

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Date: Wed, Dec 06, 2000 at 18:48:32 (GMT)
From: Joe
Email: None
To: Scott T.
Subject: Dazzling Media
Message:
By their logic there isn't enough time for it before a contest, so if a canvassing board decides not to do it on that basis (as did Dade County) then it becomes impossible to have them do it during the contest phase because you have to prove abuse of discretion. Well, they used their discretion to note that the didn't have time for it, and that's clearly not 'abuse' so... That sort of pretzel logic is just plain perverse, no matter how you look at it.

Yeah, but it was the Florida Supreme Court that set the deadline and Sauls is stuck with that, and I don't think it was unreasonable for Dade to say they didn't have time.

But I think the point you are missing is that it was Gore's burden to prove that counting the ballots in Dade County would likely change the outcome of the election. Since we are in the contest phase, abuse of discretion of the Dade County Elections Board isn't really the issue. And, as I said, Gore only picked up 567 votes in Broward, which went by 30 points to Gore and is relatively the same size as Dade. Dade only went by 5-7 points for Gore, so I think it's reasonable to think that he isn't likely to get the 538 votes he needs there, given what happened in Broward, and probably only a fraction of that. I just don't think that's 'perverse,' but I agree it's a close call, and I think we ought to err on the side of counting the votes, just to keep confidence in the electoral system.

I know what you mean about the deadlines, but that is all interpretation and opinion. The fact is, it isn't entirely clear what would happen if Florida misses the December 18 deadline, and my point was that Florida and its courts do not want to put those votes in jeopardy, so they will shoot for the December 18 deadline to avoid the possibility of losing them, and effectively disenfranchising the entire state. Obviously, the safest way to do that is to go along with the electors that are already certified and avoid contesting them, and I think that is what the Florida Supreme Court will feel pressured to do, by the Sauls decision, by the US Supreme Court actions, and by the Florida Legislature.

At this point, I really think it's better if Bush gets in office. It would be a disaster for Gore and the Democratic party if Gore wins at this point.

And here is my best scenario at the moment: Seminole and/or Martin counties throw out enough votes to give the election to Gore. Affirming that decision, the Florida Supreme Court orders Harris and Jeb Bush to certify the Gore electors. The Florida Supreme Court might feel free to do this, because it gets them out from under the US Supreme Court scrutiny, because this is the contest phase, and all they cared about was the issue of extending the deadline under the Florida Statute. And they also wouldn't have to overrule Sauls on the facts of Gore's contest.

So, the Florida legislature convenes and designates Bush electors, despite what the court ordered. Bush becomes president because the Republican-controlled congress would accept the Bush electors.

Then, who will look like they are STEALING the election? The Dems take congress by a large majority in the 2002 congressional elections, the Dems get the majority in the Florida legislature, and Jeb Bush loses in his bid for re-election for governor.

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Date: Wed, Dec 06, 2000 at 21:30:57 (GMT)
From: Scott T.
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: Dazzling Media
Message:
Joe:

Sort of pointless for us to argue what the FL Supreme Court will do. Strictly speaking, however, there are three potential sources of votes for Gore so not all of the 537 have to come from Dade. 200+ (I think) could come from Palm Beach, which was the result of the count they completed two hours after the deadline. (A big DUH on that one BTW, since they took Thanksgiving off, while Broward did not.)

I agree that having Gore as president is not particularly dilectable. There's one problem with your scenario, however:

So, the Florida legislature convenes and designates Bush electors, despite what the court ordered. Bush becomes president because the Republican-controlled congress would accept the Bush electors.

The problem with this is that Congress is not Republican-controlled. Only the House is. On the date in question the new Congress will have been seated, but Gore will still be presiding over the Senate. So the Senate would be 50/50 with Gore as the tie-breaking vote. However, according to Ornstein Gore would not even need to cast his vote. If the Senate were merely a tie that would allow the 'default' rule to come into effect, and the Gore electors would be chosen as a matter of course.

I agree the Bush win-by-stealing scenario is sort of a tempting outcome, but we can't get there through the avenue you propose. As I see it the only way to get there is if the FL Legislature certifies Bush in a special session prior to Dec. 12, or within the 'safe harbor.' They are reluctant to take that step, but if Gore wins on any of these pending cases they may have to. At that point the legality of their ability to do that certification would probaly be adjudicated in the US Supreme Court, but maybe just in the FL Supreme Court. It's a murky area.

--Scott

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Date: Wed, Dec 06, 2000 at 21:50:00 (GMT)
From: Joe
Email: None
To: Scott T.
Subject: The persuasive Gore argument
Message:
I read part of Gore's appeal papers to the Florida Supreme Court, and they are persuasive on the ability of the recount to change the outcome of the election.

First there is that partial hand count in Dade County that was abandoned by election officials but yielded a net gain of 168 votes for Gore Then, in Palm Beach, where Gore wanted the county's manual recount totals -- which gave a net gain of 215 votes for Gore but whose filing with state elections just missed a deadline. And then in Nassau County, where the elections board threw out the state-mandated machine recount, costing Gore 51 votes, the Gore camp wanted that figure reinstated.

In their brief to the Supreme Court, Gore attorneys pressed their case for the manual vote reviews, noting just how slim Bush's lead could become just by including the votes already tallied from Miami- Dade and Palm Beach and excluding the ones from Nassau. They said the Bush's lead would be reduced to 103 -- 'before a single one of the 3,300 ballots from Palm Beach or the 9,000 ballots from Miami-Dade is examined.'

Sounds good to me, but I wonder if the Supremes will be convinced.


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Date: Wed, Dec 06, 2000 at 22:43:07 (GMT)
From: Scott T.
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: The persuasive Gore argument
Message:
Joe:

Sounds good to me, but I wonder if the Supremes will be convinced.

We'll see. I noticed that the FL Legislature is going into special session on Friday, so we may get what we want after all. I don't think they have any idea how big this will be to Democrats, or how much Republicans will be made to pay. I have to tell you, I would far rather they cut their own throats like this than have to put up with the consequences of a Gore presidency. A classic case of winning the battle and losing the war. I've been trying to figure out how to get around the Republican roadblock on some of these critical domestic issues for years, and they may just hand the answer to us on a silver platter... provided the Democrats don't start selling an unalloyed social democrat program as the alternative. An indication of the extent of the miscalculation: Americans mistrust business leaders more than they mistrust union leaders. To listen to the Republicans you'd think it was the other way around.

However, there is considerable opinion that this act of the Legislature would be both illegal and unconstitutional, so it hasn't happened yet.

--Scott

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Date: Wed, Dec 06, 2000 at 21:11:14 (GMT)
From: Jerry
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: Dazzling Media
Message:
Yeah, but it was the Florida Supreme Court that set the deadline and Sauls is stuck with that, and I don't think it was unreasonable for Dade to say they didn't have time.

I don't think the Florida Supreme Court had any business, at all, setting a new deadline. That's a job for the legislature, not the judiciary, and I think it's coming back to haunt them with the U.S. Supeme Court. I think their action in setting a new deadline is the grounds by which the U.S. Supreme Court is going to overrule them. We'll see.

I think what's going on in Seminole County is a much more interesting case right now. If the Democrats can prove that incomplete Democratic ballot applications were trashed where Republican ones weren't, I think there's a chance the judge might rule in the Democrats favor, especially if it's proven that Democrats were forbidden access to the applications when Republicans weren't. But even then, filling in missing information on an application isn't illegal, so far as I know.

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Date: Wed, Dec 06, 2000 at 21:43:36 (GMT)
From: Scott T.
Email: None
To: Jerry
Subject: Dazzling Media
Message:
Jerry:

I'm listening to the Seminole case right now, and it doesn't sound very impressive to me so far. They're trying to prove 'disparate treatment' but don't seem to be making a go of it. Unless they present something to prove the Supervisor of Elections is lying about having contacted or warned the Republican Party, or that she knew she was doing something illegal. Maybe the Martin County case is more substantial, but that's not in Nikki Clark's courtroom.

As for the Supremes remanding the case back to FL, I think your indulging in wishful thinking. The Supremes virtually quoted chapter and verse on how the FL Court could word it's ruling in order to avoid being overturned. I don't even think the Supremes will grant cert this next time.

--Scott

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Date: Tues, Dec 05, 2000 at 18:14:38 (GMT)
From: Way
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: Joe - I know why you got cable
Message:
Joe,

I have cable, but not Showtime. So how's the show? I still haven't seen the British version either. BTW, I've seen Hal Sparks on Talk Soup, and think he must be miscast as a gay man. Straight men in gay roles is an interesting phenomenon. Some do a great job - I loved Stephen Dorff as Candy Darling in 'I shot Andy Warhol.'

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Date: Tues, Dec 05, 2000 at 18:40:32 (GMT)
From: Joe
Email: None
To: Way
Subject: Queer as Folk -- And Hey you Brits......
Message:
Hi Way,

Yeah, that's why I got cable; you are right. Okay, so I watched the American version of Queer as Folk on Showtime on Sunday night. I have to say, it was pretty good, and if I hadn't already seen the British version, I would be SHOCKED that it would be shown on American television. I liked the British version better, maybe because the program wasn't quite as slick, but this version is very good.

Okay, first the sex. The sex in the first episode was just about as explicit as in the British version, some people think more explicit, and there is a lot more 'non-sexual' affection among the men than in the British version, and the 'sex talk' was even more explicit, both of which I liked. As I said, I was shocked by the British version, and would have been just as shocked by the American version if I hadn't already seen the British version. I wonder if there will be a backlash to this, although, I think it's terrific if young people, of all orientations, are seeing this show. It's a big breakthrough. The show is just extremely gay. It's the first TV show I've ever seen in which being gay is the norm, and isn't discussed as some kind of a problem. They have some great jokes and they aren't patronizing in explaining 'gay lingo.' They assume a certain sophistication of the audience, and that's good.

Hal Sparks is adorable. It might be because he plays the most sympathetic character in the show, but he's very good. Sharon Gless is great as Hal Spark's mom. Also, in general, the characters in the American version seem more likeable and vulnerable than in the British version. I think they toned down the characters for an American audience.

They made a few changes in the show, some people say cop-outs.

Justin, the young gay man who causes the big disruption in everyones' lives, was only 15 in the British version, but he is 17 in the American version. I think they felt having a 15 year old have sex with a 29-year-old man in the first episode was just too much. I know that caused a lot of controversy in Britain.

Also, the lesbian couple are more prominent in the American version, which is good. They are in a committed relationship and have a baby in the first episode. They also look like strong characters. They took out all the British slang, obviously, and it's kind of weird that the show takes place in Pittsburgh, hardly a gay mecca. They show an area of town that looks like the Castro in San Francisco, but I don't think anything like that actually exists in Pittsburgh.

I will definitely watch the rest of it, however. Showtime is promoting it big time around here. Every bus kiosk has a big advert for the show.

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Date: Wed, Dec 06, 2000 at 17:31:45 (GMT)
From: bill
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: Queer as Folk -- And Hey you Brits......
Message:
Hi Joe,
Knowing some 17 year olds, I think they are immature as well.
They tower over the 15 year olds in maturity but that is not saying much at all!

There are a lot of 19 year olds that come to this house and I cant say I can pick out one that is an adult yet.

Legal timelines are drawn for a reason I suppose, but I cant see the reasoning as I look around here. Also, girls are clearly ahead than most of the boys in a couple catagories but even they are at a severe disadvantage hanging out with a 29 year old.

This teen age group should definately be off limits to those over 21.

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Date: Tues, Dec 05, 2000 at 18:48:52 (GMT)
From: Way
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: Queer as Folk -- And Hey you Brits......
Message:
I hear it is being filmed in Toronto. I wonder why. Yes, Mr. Sparks is adorable - he would have a hard time playing a villain.
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Date: Tues, Dec 05, 2000 at 18:47:56 (GMT)
From: Joe
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: Also, Safe Sex
Message:
One other difference. The British version was criticized because the characters didn't seem to engage in safe sex. In the American version, condoms are very prominent.
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Date: Tues, Dec 05, 2000 at 07:53:06 (GMT)
From: JTF
Email: None
To: Scott T.
Subject: Dazzling Media
Message:
In the U.S. anyway, the headlines become the truth. I noticed yesterday on MSNBC that they kept opening each segment with 'U.S. Supreme Court rejects Fla. Supreme Court'. Later in the segment, they would explain that it wasn't a rejection. I would suspect that most people interviewed about what happened would say the U.S. Supreme Court decision was bad for Gore...when, in reality it was a no decision-request for more info.

The media shapes opinion and then report polls as meaningful.

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Date: Tues, Dec 05, 2000 at 15:02:39 (GMT)
From: Scott T.
Email: None
To: JTF
Subject: Dazzling Media
Message:
JTF:

I think that what they don't say has more influence than what they say. They omit things that would completely alter the opinions of most people who watch the news. There's a sort of group consciousness that influences the media itself, and watching the big players it is rare that one media outlet contradicts another or submits an independent outlook. I think I'd call it low productivity.

I'm not sure how the FL Supreme Court will rule. I suppose it will come down to whether they buy the legal argument that an abuse of discretion standard applies. I would have thought that was a silly reading of law, that would mean there is no ultimate recourse to a manual count of the ballots. As to whether a manual count is accurate, I think the Bush expert was rather eloquent on that. If Judge Sauls made a glaring error then he will be overturned. I heard a group of legal experts yesterday indicate that they thought it about a 30% chance. But given that this court believes the paramount right belongs to the voter, if they belief that Bush is attempting to block voter sovereignty then they may just give Gore a go. My guess is that they'll make the ruling on that basis if they can. They won't allow a perverse precedent to stand.

I think Sauls really demonstrated his bias when he stated his opinion that counting some ballots manually would disenfranchise voters whose ballots are not counted manually. The US Supreme Court has already refused to grant cert on that basis when the FL Supreme Court held that was not a governing principle in this case, so at least that part of his ruling will *have* to be overturned in order not to establish a perverse precedent. And once they get their teeth into him... His best chance of not being overturned was to issue a moderate opinion that still left Gore short. So I actually think Gore's chances are more like 50/50.

In two days, provided the Seminole County case starts before the Supreme Court rules on the Sauls appeal, everyone's eyes will be on that court. It involves possible fraud and abuse so in spite of what everyone is saying now I think it could end up as the thematic decision of the whole episode. No chads, statistics, or engineering details involved in that one. And the FL Supreme Court *will not* overturn Nikki Clark's ruling.

--Scott

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Date: Tues, Dec 05, 2000 at 16:26:10 (GMT)
From: Scott T.
Email: None
To: Scott T.
Subject: Ferinstance
Message:
I think that what they don't say has more influence than what they say. They omit things that would completely alter the opinions of most people who watch the news.

A big ferinstance: I haven't heard *any* discussion of the allegation in the Seminole case that Democrats were told they *could not* alter the same information on absentee applications that the Republicans were allowed to alter. This would be like allowing Republicans into a polling place, but excluding Democrats: a very clear instance of fraud. I'd normally assume that this allegation isn't being discussed because it's groundless, however I'm not so sure now. It should at least be mentioned to the extent of allowing it to be refuted, and if it's *not* groundless then it's just another example of this media 'groupthink' that seems to be epidemic. The impression given is that the Democrats are seeking to throw out votes on a mere technicality, and I really have no idea whether this impression is *at all* accurate, because I just have so little faith that the media is doing its job.

--Scott

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Date: Tues, Dec 05, 2000 at 00:36:21 (GMT)
From: The imperfect Master
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: Well we could be terrorists
Message:
The body has an immune system. The white blood cells do their job. They attack germs, invaders that threaten the bodys health and well being. The white blood cell doesn't yawn and say 'Oh well never mind about that cancer cell. It's his dharma to kill. It's the karma of the body and God's will or he wouldn't be here.' The white blood cell just attacks.
Now if you people are so tired of the lies deception and bullshit...ATTACK!!!!!!! Kill the germs!!!!! Eliminate them!!!!!! Destroy them utterly!!!!!!!!!!!!! otherwise SHUT THE FUCK UP AND QUIT WHINING ABOUT EVERYTHING.
Sooner or later others will be put to death for their beliefs.
If you got a problem with the perfect master build a gooddamned carbon tet bomb or plastic explosive and wire it to his Mercedes. You can build rocket and gernade lauchers. You could even computerize a bomb and sit in your livingroom punch in a code and enjoy the show on your computer screen.
Blow up Sai Baba's ashram too while your at it and anyone who wants to control your mind. FUCK EM!!!
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Date: Tues, Dec 05, 2000 at 02:06:24 (GMT)
From: the dude
Email: None
To: The imperfect Master
Subject: Hey man, like chill
Message:
ya wanna toke?
yore jus gonna get yer blood pressure up!

the heavy metal tent's next door man

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Date: Tues, Dec 05, 2000 at 01:02:52 (GMT)
From: gerry
Email: None
To: The imperfect Master
Subject: you first
Message:
So you are saying, unless we become murderers we should 'shut the fuck up?'

I understand your intense anger at Rawat for his duplicity, but this type of threatening rant is frowned upon by us more gentle, moderate types (snicker) and could get you into hot water with the forum administrators.

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Date: Tues, Dec 05, 2000 at 01:31:37 (GMT)
From: Marianne
Email: None
To: FA
Subject: FA, you ought to delete that first post
Message:
We don't tolerate threats on the forum. No one here wants any sort of violence perpetrated in our name.
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