Forum V: Archive
Compiled: Sat, Dec 16, 2000 at 21:05:25 (GMT)
From: Nov 23, 2000 To: Dec 14, 2000 Page: 5 Of: 5


Marianne -:- Pinochet to Stand Trial for multiple murders-OT -:- Sat, Dec 02, 2000 at 02:22:39 (GMT)
__ Jean-Michel -:- Marianne? Would you email me? -:- Sat, Dec 02, 2000 at 08:44:32 (GMT)
__ ExTex -:- Pinochet to Stand Trial for multiple murders-OT -:- Sat, Dec 02, 2000 at 05:54:36 (GMT)
__ Salam -:- About time -:- Sat, Dec 02, 2000 at 02:43:44 (GMT)
__ __ ExTex -:- My Nomination -:- Tues, Dec 05, 2000 at 04:55:58 (GMT)
__ __ __ gerry -:- I'll second that (nt) -:- Tues, Dec 05, 2000 at 15:02:25 (GMT)
__ __ gerry -:- Hey Salam -:- Sat, Dec 02, 2000 at 03:31:16 (GMT)
__ __ __ Stonor -:- ideocracy -:- Sat, Dec 02, 2000 at 17:15:39 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ gerry -:- ideocracy -:- Sat, Dec 02, 2000 at 17:56:46 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Stonor -:- ideocracy -:- Sat, Dec 02, 2000 at 18:27:20 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Monmot -:- ideocracy/idiotacracy -:- Sat, Dec 02, 2000 at 21:27:16 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ gerry -:- Royal Raymond Rife -:- Sat, Dec 02, 2000 at 22:21:50 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Momot -:- Royal Raymond Rife -:- Mon, Dec 04, 2000 at 19:41:23 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ gerry -:- Royal Raymond Rife (OT) -:- Tues, Dec 05, 2000 at 00:52:48 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ gerry -:- Royal Raymond Rife (OT) -:- Tues, Dec 05, 2000 at 01:12:49 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Monmot -:- Royal Raymond Rife (OT) -:- Tues, Dec 05, 2000 at 01:41:51 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ gerry -:- Royal Raymond Rife (OT) -:- Tues, Dec 05, 2000 at 01:49:37 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Monmot -:- Royal Raymond Rife (OT) -:- Tues, Dec 05, 2000 at 02:02:37 (GMT)
__ __ __ Salam -:- Hey Salam -:- Sat, Dec 02, 2000 at 04:04:24 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ gerry -:- I wish I could answer that, Salam. -:- Sat, Dec 02, 2000 at 18:02:21 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Stonor -:- Not 'America' - Multinational Corps! (Sheesh!) nt -:- Sat, Dec 02, 2000 at 18:28:32 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ gerry -:- Well, OK, kinda... -:- Sat, Dec 02, 2000 at 18:45:34 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Stonor -:- Well, OK, kinda... -:- Sat, Dec 02, 2000 at 18:56:04 (GMT)
__ __ Marianne -:- About time -:- Sat, Dec 02, 2000 at 02:46:31 (GMT)
__ __ __ Salam -:- About time of 1:53 in the afternoon. -:- Sat, Dec 02, 2000 at 02:52:28 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Marianne -:- About 6:55 at night on Friday - OT -:- Sat, Dec 02, 2000 at 02:56:23 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ salam -:- Can we sue Bush for murder -:- Sat, Dec 02, 2000 at 14:10:29 (GMT)

FA -:- Forum Lockout -:- Fri, Dec 01, 2000 at 16:27:20 (GMT)
__ Kelly -:- Is this forum addictive? -:- Fri, Dec 01, 2000 at 21:00:03 (GMT)
__ __ Jean-Michel -:- Kelly? Would you email me? -:- Sat, Dec 02, 2000 at 08:16:46 (GMT)
__ __ __ Kelly -:- e-mail sent nt -:- Sat, Dec 02, 2000 at 09:50:17 (GMT)
__ __ DV -:- I look at it this way. -:- Sat, Dec 02, 2000 at 03:33:48 (GMT)
__ __ __ Salam -:- I look at it this way. -:- Sat, Dec 02, 2000 at 04:19:36 (GMT)
__ __ Hal -:- Is this forum addictive? -:- Fri, Dec 01, 2000 at 21:57:33 (GMT)
__ __ __ Kelly -:- Is this forum addictive? -:- Fri, Dec 01, 2000 at 22:12:21 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Joy -:- Is this forum addictive? -:- Fri, Dec 01, 2000 at 22:47:17 (GMT)
__ __ Your sponsor -:- F.A.A. -:- Fri, Dec 01, 2000 at 21:49:47 (GMT)
__ __ __ Kelly -:- Sweet F.A. -:- Fri, Dec 01, 2000 at 23:35:51 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Cynthia -:- Is This Forum Addicting?? -:- Sat, Dec 02, 2000 at 00:47:42 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Cynthia -:- P.S. Is This Forum Addicting?? -:- Sat, Dec 02, 2000 at 00:53:53 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Salam -:- P.S. Is This Forum Addicting?? -:- Sat, Dec 02, 2000 at 02:36:52 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Katie -:- P.S. Is This Forum Addicting?? -:- Sat, Dec 02, 2000 at 16:38:29 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Cynthia -:- Well, er, ummm, cough, oh well.... -:- Sat, Dec 02, 2000 at 03:50:25 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Jo Jo Savard -:- Oops, sunspot interference! (darn 11 yr. cycle!)NT -:- Sat, Dec 02, 2000 at 17:52:37 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Jo Jo Savard -:- My psychic superpowers tell me the next question -:- Sat, Dec 02, 2000 at 02:58:00 (GMT)

Jerry -:- Fucking Canadians! (ot) -:- Wed, Nov 29, 2000 at 21:29:11 (GMT)
__ Gail -:- Fucking Canadians!--and the best part is ... -:- Wed, Dec 06, 2000 at 16:19:37 (GMT)
__ __ Stonor -:- 'We're just the 51st state.'?!! -:- Thurs, Dec 07, 2000 at 03:10:00 (GMT)
__ Yves -:- I wished I was more of a fucking canadian. -:- Tues, Dec 05, 2000 at 03:20:53 (GMT)
__ Jennifer -:- It's easy, Jerry!! -:- Fri, Dec 01, 2000 at 21:56:45 (GMT)
__ __ Scott T. -:- It's easy, Jerry!! -:- Sat, Dec 02, 2000 at 14:58:39 (GMT)
__ __ __ Steve Quint -:- It's easy, Jerry!! -:- Tues, Dec 05, 2000 at 06:15:17 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Scott T. -:- It's easy, Jerry!! -:- Tues, Dec 05, 2000 at 16:10:25 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Steve Quint -:- This Discussion Was Based On A Hypothesis -:- Tues, Dec 05, 2000 at 17:08:53 (GMT)
__ __ __ Steve Quint -:- In Reality -:- Sat, Dec 02, 2000 at 16:34:10 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Scott T. -:- In Reality -:- Sat, Dec 02, 2000 at 23:48:47 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Steve Quint -:- We Have A Green Party And A Marijuana Party -:- Mon, Dec 04, 2000 at 19:03:08 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Scott T. -:- We Have A Green Party And A Marijuana Party -:- Mon, Dec 04, 2000 at 19:46:36 (GMT)
__ Joe -:- Well..... -:- Thurs, Nov 30, 2000 at 01:43:53 (GMT)
__ __ Jennifer -:- Well.....Joe thanks for the laugh! :)-nt -:- Fri, Dec 01, 2000 at 21:58:12 (GMT)
__ __ Cynthia -:- Hey Joe....and everyone... -:- Thurs, Nov 30, 2000 at 05:35:14 (GMT)
__ Sir Dave -:- Fucking Canadians! (ot) -:- Wed, Nov 29, 2000 at 23:32:20 (GMT)
__ Steve Quint -:- S/B Called Canadians Fucking Canadians! (ot) -:- Wed, Nov 29, 2000 at 21:37:08 (GMT)
__ __ Joe -:- Is this really true? -:- Thurs, Nov 30, 2000 at 01:56:23 (GMT)
__ __ __ Stonor -:- 'This Hour Has 22 Minutes' -:- Fri, Dec 01, 2000 at 17:38:57 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ bill -:- 'This Hour Has 22 Minutes' -:- Wed, Dec 06, 2000 at 14:07:59 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Stonor -:- Thanks for the encouragement, Bill -:- Thurs, Dec 07, 2000 at 03:15:19 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Cynthia -:- 'Royal Canadian Air Farce' on CBC is also very... -:- Sat, Dec 02, 2000 at 00:31:45 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Stonor -:- Red Green? Now there's a REAL MAN..unfortunately;) -:- Sat, Dec 02, 2000 at 01:11:42 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Joe -:- Wow, it really IS true -- too funny. -:- Fri, Dec 01, 2000 at 18:02:33 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Stonor -:- Wow, it really IS true -- too funny or not. -:- Fri, Dec 01, 2000 at 18:51:32 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ JohnT -:- Point of info (hugely trivial) -:- Tues, Dec 05, 2000 at 14:11:54 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Stonor -:- Thanks for that John. -:- Tues, Dec 05, 2000 at 20:06:11 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Cynthia -:- To demonstrate how dumb I am about Canadian... -:- Sat, Dec 02, 2000 at 00:58:13 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Stonor -:- LOL!! Too much! I'll have to copy your post -:- Sat, Dec 02, 2000 at 01:15:16 (GMT)
__ __ __ ExTex -:- TRUE! (nt) -:- Thurs, Nov 30, 2000 at 05:52:22 (GMT)
__ __ __ Scott T. -:- Is this really true? -:- Thurs, Nov 30, 2000 at 05:16:58 (GMT)
__ __ Jerry -:- S/B Called Canadians Fucking Canadians! (ot) -:- Wed, Nov 29, 2000 at 22:12:58 (GMT)
__ __ __ ExTex -:- S/B Called Canadians Fucking Canadians! (ot) -:- Thurs, Nov 30, 2000 at 05:56:55 (GMT)

Joe -:- Should Al Gore Concede? ::)) (ot) -:- Wed, Nov 29, 2000 at 02:23:28 (GMT)
__ Stonor -:- 'inebriated CHIHUAHUA' (ot) -:- Fri, Dec 01, 2000 at 19:29:08 (GMT)
__ ExTex -:- Should Al Gore Concede? ::)) (very very ot) -:- Thurs, Nov 30, 2000 at 06:06:47 (GMT)
__ Sir Dave -:- Should Al Gore Concede? ::)) (ot) -:- Wed, Nov 29, 2000 at 14:15:50 (GMT)
__ __ Scott T. -:- Howdy pardner! ::)) (ot) -:- Wed, Nov 29, 2000 at 16:12:35 (GMT)
__ __ __ Sir Dave -:- Howdy pardner! ::)) (ot) -:- Wed, Nov 29, 2000 at 23:27:01 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ ExTex -:- Howdy pardner! ::)) (ot) -:- Sat, Dec 02, 2000 at 05:51:16 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ cq -:- Talking of Alfred E and George W (ot) -:- Tues, Dec 05, 2000 at 19:26:14 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Steve Quint -:- Howdy pardner! ::)) (ot) -:- Wed, Nov 29, 2000 at 23:31:38 (GMT)
__ Rick -:- Should Al Gore Concede? ::)) (ot) -:- Wed, Nov 29, 2000 at 05:47:06 (GMT)
__ __ Scott T. -:- Should Al Gore Concede? ::)) (ot) -:- Thurs, Nov 30, 2000 at 05:15:05 (GMT)
__ __ __ Jennifer -:- Yes, he should concede. -:- Fri, Dec 01, 2000 at 21:27:33 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Scott T. -:- Yes, he should concede. -:- Sat, Dec 02, 2000 at 06:08:56 (GMT)
__ __ Jerry -:- Should Al Gore Concede? ::)) (ot) -:- Thurs, Nov 30, 2000 at 01:07:07 (GMT)
__ __ __ Jennifer -:- Should Al Gore Concede? ::)) (ot) -:- Fri, Dec 01, 2000 at 21:32:56 (GMT)
__ __ __ Rick -:- Should Al Gore Concede? ::)) (ot) -:- Thurs, Nov 30, 2000 at 05:58:06 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Jennifer -:- Weasel is right (ot) -:- Fri, Dec 01, 2000 at 21:39:51 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Rick -:- Weasel is right (ot) -:- Fri, Dec 01, 2000 at 21:52:35 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Jennifer -:- Thanks for the civil discourse, Rick(ot) -:- Fri, Dec 01, 2000 at 22:20:26 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Scott T. -:- Concessions and other errors(ot) -:- Sat, Dec 02, 2000 at 05:39:52 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Ben Lurking -:- Concessions and other errors(ot) -:- Sat, Dec 02, 2000 at 16:55:56 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Scott T. -:- Concessions and other errors(ot) -:- Tues, Dec 05, 2000 at 01:19:51 (GMT)
__ Marianne -:- Should Al Gore Concede? ::)) (ot) -:- Wed, Nov 29, 2000 at 02:28:45 (GMT)
__ __ david m -:- OT -:- Wed, Nov 29, 2000 at 20:00:14 (GMT)
__ __ __ Robyn -:- David and Marianne -:- Fri, Dec 01, 2000 at 17:02:11 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Marianne -:- Hey there Robyn! OT -:- Sat, Dec 02, 2000 at 02:50:48 (GMT)
__ __ __ Marianne -:- Hi david! OT -:- Wed, Nov 29, 2000 at 20:32:36 (GMT)
__ Joe -:- Correction: that is what HE said. -:- Wed, Nov 29, 2000 at 02:24:55 (GMT)
__ __ KD -:- Correction: that is what HE said. -:- Wed, Nov 29, 2000 at 08:03:04 (GMT)
__ __ __ Cynthia -:- I was just watching CSPAN-Live FLA Legislature(OT) -:- Wed, Nov 29, 2000 at 17:43:21 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Jennifer -:- I was just watching CSPAN-Live FLA Legislature(OT) -:- Fri, Dec 01, 2000 at 21:53:07 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Cynthia -:- I was just watching CSPAN-Live FLA Legislature(OT) -:- Sat, Dec 02, 2000 at 00:28:23 (GMT)

Lesley -:- Lotus Eater, rip -:- Tues, Nov 28, 2000 at 20:01:33 (GMT)
__ Disculta -:- Unfair to cunts! (nmt) -:- Wed, Nov 29, 2000 at 01:06:27 (GMT)
__ __ Salam -:- Hello, Ladies -:- Wed, Nov 29, 2000 at 01:59:14 (GMT)
__ __ __ Stonor -:- LOL!!! LOL!!! (you gentleman, Salam!) -:- Wed, Nov 29, 2000 at 02:13:19 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ ham -:- Here in good ole essex land -:- Wed, Nov 29, 2000 at 12:40:37 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Heidi the Cunt -:- Hamzen Fan Club OT -:- Sat, Dec 02, 2000 at 04:11:01 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ ham -:- Really bloody great seeing u here heidi -:- Tues, Dec 05, 2000 at 02:32:53 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Cupid Stuntz -:- Its all in the best PASSABLE taste ! -:- Wed, Nov 29, 2000 at 16:15:13 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Stonor -:- Here in good ole ex-colony land ... -:- Wed, Nov 29, 2000 at 14:23:40 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ sam -:- only what we made 'em -:- Sat, Dec 02, 2000 at 04:12:07 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Stonor -:- Have you checked the OED? I will soon! (nt) -:- Sat, Dec 02, 2000 at 18:30:49 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Disculta -:- Go see 'Vagina Monologues' OT -:- Wed, Nov 29, 2000 at 22:13:49 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Stonor -:- Go see 'Vagina Monologues' OT -:- Thurs, Nov 30, 2000 at 03:11:44 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Marianne -:- San Francisco? -:- Thurs, Nov 30, 2000 at 02:18:31 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Salam -:- Stomor, your my man -:- Wed, Nov 29, 2000 at 02:26:52 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Stonor -:- Saram, you're my woman! -:- Wed, Nov 29, 2000 at 02:52:52 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Salam -:- I have a confesion to make -:- Wed, Nov 29, 2000 at 03:14:24 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Stonor -:- Watch what you say about women! (God'll get angry) -:- Wed, Nov 29, 2000 at 04:06:55 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Salam -:- GOD sucks -:- Thurs, Nov 30, 2000 at 01:29:45 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Cynthia -:- Salam...what you on? Bible stuff? -:- Thurs, Nov 30, 2000 at 05:09:58 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Stonor -:- Salam! Heaven help me! Bible quotes at FV?!!! -:- Thurs, Nov 30, 2000 at 03:23:45 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Salam -:- Now look here you two infidels -:- Thurs, Nov 30, 2000 at 05:58:34 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Cynthia -:- Salam, I was just busting your ass... -:- Sat, Dec 02, 2000 at 03:45:36 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Steve Quint -:- Salam, I was just busting your ass... -:- Sat, Dec 02, 2000 at 16:37:57 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Salam -:- Salam, I was just busting your ass... -:- Sat, Dec 02, 2000 at 17:36:36 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Stonor -:- Now look here you infidel -:- Sat, Dec 02, 2000 at 03:23:12 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Salam -:- Great link -:- Sat, Dec 02, 2000 at 04:36:59 (GMT)

gErRy -:- I'm about to throw a hissy fit... -:- Tues, Nov 28, 2000 at 00:13:10 (GMT)
__ FA -:- Go caps...? -:- Tues, Nov 28, 2000 at 13:54:19 (GMT)
__ Roger eDrek -:- gErRy, you are killing the Forum good will -:- Tues, Nov 28, 2000 at 00:44:05 (GMT)
__ __ gErRy -:- I just can't kick my cult tendencies, Rog! (nt) -:- Tues, Nov 28, 2000 at 00:58:22 (GMT)
__ Sir Dave -:- I'm about to throw a hissy fit... -:- Tues, Nov 28, 2000 at 00:40:46 (GMT)
__ __ gerry -:- Ah, a soothing balm -:- Tues, Nov 28, 2000 at 00:53:08 (GMT)
__ __ Marianne -:- Agree with gErRy -- Hey FA! -:- Tues, Nov 28, 2000 at 00:47:01 (GMT)
__ __ __ Sir Dave -:- I think banning isn't the answer -:- Tues, Nov 28, 2000 at 00:55:19 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Cynthia -:- What Is the Answer? -:- Tues, Nov 28, 2000 at 01:47:36 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ hamzen -:- He's a victim as well, after all he didn't -:- Tues, Nov 28, 2000 at 01:42:53 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Cynthia -:- hamzen, he may be a victim of the cult, but -:- Tues, Nov 28, 2000 at 01:50:07 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ hamzen -:- Don't get me wrong Cynthia, just pragmatics. -:- Tues, Nov 28, 2000 at 02:04:32 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Cynthia -:- hamzen, I know it's a difficult call, just -:- Tues, Nov 28, 2000 at 02:09:11 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ hamzen -:- Understandable, your reaction to his posts, -:- Tues, Nov 28, 2000 at 05:24:48 (GMT)

Scott T. -:- Shroud of Turin (OT?) -:- Sun, Nov 26, 2000 at 23:59:01 (GMT)
__ janet -:- one of my favorite subjects -:- Tues, Nov 28, 2000 at 10:08:48 (GMT)
__ Sir Dave -:- Shroud of Turin (OT?) -:- Mon, Nov 27, 2000 at 00:33:20 (GMT)
__ __ Scott T. -:- Shroud of Turin (OT?) -:- Mon, Nov 27, 2000 at 16:45:21 (GMT)
__ __ __ Sir Dave -:- More anomolies -:- Mon, Nov 27, 2000 at 19:41:39 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Stonor -:- Or not -:- Tues, Nov 28, 2000 at 04:13:27 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Scott T. -:- More anomolies -:- Tues, Nov 28, 2000 at 03:25:25 (GMT)
__ __ Scott T. -:- Shroud of Turin (OT?) -:- Mon, Nov 27, 2000 at 01:25:13 (GMT)
__ __ Salam -:- Shroud of Turin (OT?) -:- Mon, Nov 27, 2000 at 00:45:56 (GMT)
__ __ __ Scott T. -:- Shroud of Turin (OT?) -:- Mon, Nov 27, 2000 at 01:33:02 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ gerry -:- Well maybe Moses, Mohammed, and Buddha weren't -:- Mon, Nov 27, 2000 at 15:30:36 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Scott T. -:- Well maybe Moses, Mohammed, and Buddha weren't -:- Mon, Nov 27, 2000 at 16:21:31 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Salam -:- Well maybe Moses, Mohammed, and Buddha weren't -:- Tues, Nov 28, 2000 at 02:08:09 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Salam -:- Shroud of Turin (OT?) -:- Mon, Nov 27, 2000 at 02:44:50 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Cynthia -:- Shroud of Turin..If I may butt in(OT?) -:- Mon, Nov 27, 2000 at 20:24:19 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Scott T. -:- Shroud of Turin..If I may butt in(OT?) -:- Tues, Nov 28, 2000 at 03:35:43 (GMT)

Marianne -:- Hey FA, can you get rid of this garbage.. -:- Thurs, Nov 23, 2000 at 22:08:33 (GMT)
__ Katie -:- Hey FA, can you get rid of this garbage.. -:- Fri, Nov 24, 2000 at 00:22:52 (GMT)
__ FA -:- Go forth and multiply -:- Thurs, Nov 23, 2000 at 22:10:59 (GMT)
__ __ Gregg -:- Djuro... -:- Fri, Nov 24, 2000 at 03:27:53 (GMT)
__ __ __ Salam -:- Gregg -:- Fri, Nov 24, 2000 at 03:43:34 (GMT)
__ __ Tim -:- Hey FA, can you get rid of this garbage.. -:- Thurs, Nov 23, 2000 at 22:43:16 (GMT)


Date: Sat, Dec 02, 2000 at 02:22:39 (GMT)
From: Marianne
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: Pinochet to Stand Trial for multiple murders-OT
Message:
International press is reporting that former General Augusto Pinochet has been charged with multiple murders and numerous kidnappings following the military coup he launched (with a mighty assist from the CIA under George Bush and Nixon) against the democratically elected President Allende in 1973.

Pinochet's prosecution is a huge victory for the families of those who were murdered and 'disappeared' by his fascist regime. For those of us who grew up during this time and were politically involved, the idea that Pinochet might someday be brought to justice was inconceivable.

Tonight I will remember those whose lives were snuffed out by his government, their children who were stolen from them and given to members of the fascist government, and the parents, siblings and others they left behind.

Marianne

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Date: Sat, Dec 02, 2000 at 08:44:32 (GMT)
From: Jean-Michel
Email: jmkahn@club-internet.fr
To: Marianne
Subject: Marianne? Would you email me?
Message:
I'm not sure the email I have for you is still working ....
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Date: Sat, Dec 02, 2000 at 05:54:36 (GMT)
From: ExTex
Email: None
To: Marianne
Subject: Pinochet to Stand Trial for multiple murders-OT
Message:
Nail the bastard, ala Mussolini! The old creep deserves to suffer. Bravo! Death to tyrants and their cohorts!
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Date: Sat, Dec 02, 2000 at 02:43:44 (GMT)
From: Salam
Email: None
To: Marianne
Subject: About time
Message:
this bastared gets what he deserves. Maybe they should put Bush on trial for committing crimes against humanity too, not only Saddam. Oh sorry, America does not do that sort of stuff, they are god fearing loving people.
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Date: Tues, Dec 05, 2000 at 04:55:58 (GMT)
From: ExTex
Email: None
To: Salam
Subject: My Nomination
Message:
I hearby nominate Henry Kissinger for the honor of being tried for war crimes.
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Date: Tues, Dec 05, 2000 at 15:02:25 (GMT)
From: gerry
Email: None
To: ExTex
Subject: I'll second that (nt)
Message:
How come he still looks fifty?
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Date: Sat, Dec 02, 2000 at 03:31:16 (GMT)
From: gerry
Email: None
To: Salam
Subject: Hey Salam
Message:
did you know bush and sadam were big buddies and 'business partners? Bush 'created' Sadam.

Bush is a major drug criminal and murderous force in the world. His son can't be much different.

Of course, Gore's a thug and a seriously evil malevolent force also.

But don't anyone go to this website, I wouldn't want to turn anyone else into a 'conspiracy nut' like myself...

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Date: Sat, Dec 02, 2000 at 17:15:39 (GMT)
From: Stonor
Email: None
To: gerry
Subject: ideocracy
Message:
I've been thinking about conspiracy theories (Did you catch the one I posted about 'Nazis' and marijuana?). I tend more towards the systemic theory - a conspiracy requires a lot of secrecy to work on a grand scale, whereas ideocracy is systemic and self-perpetuating - a bit like a cult while you're in it. I read about ideocracy in the context of an education course - a book called 'Education and Inequality: The roots and results of stratification in America's schools', by Caroline Hodges Persell. I just did a Google search on ideocracy to try to find you a link, and virtually all of them were about communism - none about the mirror image of capitalism. Hmmmmmmm.

And are you familiar with Buckminster Fuller's 'Grunch'? He discusses how multinational corporations are now ruling the world, straddling continents without needing a passport, and the American people, and presidents, are nothing but pawns, basically (probably along with most everyone else, but written from the American perspective - haven't read it in over 15 years).

Covert aggressors on a grand scale(?) using the media to indoctrinate and brainwash - remember that television is provided 'free' only in order to provide advertisers with an ideal medium through which to pitch their products and the ideology of consumerism to a massive audience. Did you know that you burn less calories while you watch TV than when you sleep? We are actually hypnotized by the moving lights on the screen.

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Date: Sat, Dec 02, 2000 at 17:56:46 (GMT)
From: gerry
Email: None
To: Stonor
Subject: ideocracy
Message:
I have to say I agree with everything you've written. It's not so much of a conspiracy, as such requires a high level of secrecy and most of this stuff is right in our face. And of course, conspiracy is a dirty word now, having been deliberately reduced to meaninglessness by the oil soaked monopoly 'press.'

I've read some of Bucky's work, and agree with him pretty much too, but it's been a while for me also. I didn't catch your post about the nazis and marijuana though.

RE television: brain wave studies show everyone goes into immediate alpha brain wave patterns, which is a state of high suggestibility. How convenient. And how many hours a day does the average NA person spend in front of the tube? But noooooo, it has no influence on peoples' behavior, right?

My sense of humanity gets lower each day. I just watched the morbidly obese women next day fling a melon rind in the general direction of a pile of dirt in her backyard (her idea of composting?) as her son burned household trash in a barrel behind their garage. And this is a 'good' neighborhood.

Walk down the street at night and almost every house shows the telltale flickering of the tube. People have turned into abysmal sheep: fat, lazy, ignorant, superstitious, brainwashed weak sheep. Actually that's an insult on a wonderful animal but you know what I mean.

If George Bush becomes president, it's the president Amerika deserves. (thanks to abby hoffman-rip)

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Date: Sat, Dec 02, 2000 at 18:27:20 (GMT)
From: Stonor
Email: None
To: gerry
Subject: ideocracy
Message:
I thought I'd trashed it, but here it is: marijuana and swastika and big business

There are some other interesting pages at that site as well.

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Date: Sat, Dec 02, 2000 at 21:27:16 (GMT)
From: Monmot
Email: None
To: Stonor and Gerry
Subject: ideocracy/idiotacracy
Message:
Fascinating subject, guys. I used to be involved in the alternative healing community, and learned about a lot of suppressed information, primarily because it would lessen the revenues of the allopathic medical community. I'm not dissing allopathic medicine as it has its uses, just as the alternative modalities have their uses.

I agree with the 'ideocracy' argument mainly because it makes more sense, in an Occam's Razor way. As we know from watching the OJ fiasco, when too many people are involved, a conspiracy is hard to pull off. But sticking to the prevailing paradigm, while never coloring outside the lines of that paradigm, works just as well, if not better, because it becomes unconscious after a while.

I've been reading a book called 'Lost Science,' by Gerry Vassilatos, which is primarily about suppressed scientific discoveries. People like Meucci, who predated Bell and Marconi by decades; Nikola Tesla, some of whose inventions threatened fuel-dependent America; a guy named R. Raymond Rife, who invented a microscope which didn't kill the specimens be observed, unlike the electron microscope. Along with this microscope, Rife invented a 'beam ray' or 'bioray' which could and can destroy viruses (this is being revived across the U.S.--I went to a lecture a couple of weeks ago about this, and it was amazing and fascinating. They're now in the process of going before the FDA for approval for general use.).

I think it's smart to be aware that the bottom line IS the bottom line, not only in America, but in most countries now. Follow the money down the rabbit hole and there you will find suppressed information which threatens the bottom line.

There is a difference between being informed and paranoid.

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Date: Sat, Dec 02, 2000 at 22:21:50 (GMT)
From: gerry
Email: gkl!@techline.com
To: Monmot
Subject: Royal Raymond Rife
Message:
There is a lot on the web about this man. He was destroyed by uh, guess who, the FDA and the AMA. In 1939 many of the most prominent figures in medicine in the US at the time gathered for a banquet in honor of Rife to celebrate 'the end of disease.'

Of course the ideocrats quickly percieved the threat to themselves and their stranglehold on health care and moved to destroy both the man and his work.

James Bare, a Canadian chiropractor has been instrumental in reviving the device which kills micro-organisms using resonant frequencies. I have a video which shows this in real time. The microbe, in this case a paramecium, literally disintegrates.

I've researched this topic a lot and you have to sort out the good from the bogus, as usual. But the real deal is out there.

It does worry me that anyone is trying to get FDA approval for this, though. That's often the kiss of death (no pun intended) for this type of research.

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Date: Mon, Dec 04, 2000 at 19:41:23 (GMT)
From: Momot
Email: None
To: gerry
Subject: Royal Raymond Rife
Message:
Gerry:

Back to Royal Raymond Rife (before we were so rudely interrupted by improvements to the forum), have you seen the book by Barry Lyons called 'The Cancer Cure That Works'? I haven't located it yet, so haven't had a chance to read it, but I understand it also provides a lot of info on Rife's life and the history of his work on the beam ray.

The guy I saw speak was named Lynn Kenney who heads the Beam Ray Corporation which is based in Alabama. He mentioned James Bare and said that they are working on the same technology. Evidently, Bare has a cure rate of 70% and Kenney's technology has a cure rate of 90% or so. He was entirely respectful of Bare's work (I don't trust when someone trashes another's work, given what I observed in the health community when I was involved in it), and he mentioned that the lower cure rate has to do with having to 'rediscover' some of the rates for the viruses and improving the beam ray technology.

Kenny also had a video of some film of Rife doing his work in his lab, and also clips of people who've been cured. Aside from the testimonials which are nice but don't really prove anything in a ral way, Kenny had their case histories, plus medical records showing the disease dissipating, and then disappearing. Pretty amazing stuff.

I also agree with you that you have to very careful when researching and gathering info on this stuff, and I also agree that the real deal is out there. The fact that this is not out there on a grand scale borders on being criminal, but the fact that it would take a bite out of the big biz of pharmaceuticals and the AMA/FDA tells you why it's been suppressed.

I also studied Radionics quite a bit in the early-mid 80s, and they also deal with 'rates' or organs, viruses and the like. Do you know if there's any similarity? I got into that because I had some form of dysentery that no one could figure out and which almost killed me (I got down to 85 lbs and I'm 5'8'--not an optimal weight, to say the least, unless you're a model). Radionics was able to pinpoint the parasite and I was saved by the bell.

I was a little concerned also by the FDA approval thing also. Rep. Dannemeyer of CA has a bill up in California allowing the beam ray technology to be used by private citizens and not be controlled by the medical establishment (good f***ing luck on that one), but if the bill is passed, I think Kenney thinks that FDA approval might be easier. I can see a lot of problems arising, but I'm not cognizant enough about all of this to know the minutiae involved.

If you want, we can take this off-line if you'd prefer. I'm going out shortly (the real world calls), so I'll check in later.

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Date: Tues, Dec 05, 2000 at 00:52:48 (GMT)
From: gerry
Email: gkl1@techline.com
To: Momot
Subject: Royal Raymond Rife (OT)
Message:
Email would be ok, but I think everyone would benefit from this discussion so if others don't mind...

I know nothing of radionics but will educate myself on it. So I can't compare the two. 85 lbs, yikes!

Thanks for the Beam Ray Corp. info, that's a new one on me and 90% sounds better than 70%. Of course, proper nutrition, hydration and stress relief are very important in rebuilding the immune system once the microbes are killed.

Another big thing when using these devices is that you have to be aware of electroporation and the elimination of the dead microbes. It's best to go slowly and gradually or the body can become overwhelmed with toxic debris.

The suppression of these devices by the medical establishment is nothing short of mass murder, plain and simple. But the medical establishment is all about power and money, not curing people, IMO.

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Date: Tues, Dec 05, 2000 at 01:12:49 (GMT)
From: gerry
Email: None
To: monmot
Subject: Royal Raymond Rife (OT)
Message:
I did read The Cancer Cure that Worked but it's been a while. Although the information was good, the book was poorly edited IMO, and I hate that.

Can you direct me to a website about Lynn 'Kenney'. I noticed you spelled it two different ways and I was unable to find any web references. Also Ray Beam Corporation was the name of the company who originally build equipment for Rife, so doing a web search becomes confusing.

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Date: Tues, Dec 05, 2000 at 01:41:51 (GMT)
From: Monmot
Email: None
To: gerry
Subject: Royal Raymond Rife (OT)
Message:
Gerry:

Sorry for the confusion. Check out www.rifeworks.com I guess the official name is Beam Ray, LLC, according to the literature I have.

Lynn Kenney was pretty adamant about stressing the importance of nutrition, rehydration and detoxification, in addition to working with the beam ray (and also the importance of not OD'ing on the beam ray).

I met a woman at the lecture I went to who gave me the name of a book which details the history of the healing technologies which have been suppressed by the AMA. I'm looking for the piece of paper I wrote it down on, and if you're interested, I'll let you know what it is when I find that little scrap.

Radionics also has been suppressed by the AMA (two people, Abrams and Ruth Brown were imprisoned for their work with radionics; Drown died in prison), but there are more books out there now in the States than there used to be. Look for info by Bruce Copen or David Tansley for starters (there are probably more out there now than when I studied it). When I first studied it, I had to order books from England, and that was a pre-internet pain in the ass.

I also have a booklet with FAQs and testimonials which I picked up at Lynn Kenney's lecture. If you find you're interested in his work, I'd be more than happy to xerox you a copy.

P.S. I know what you mean by badly edited books. I read the Celestine Prophecies when it was published by a vanity press, and boy, was that a mess before it got picked up by a publisher. I couldn't take the guy seriously after reading it.

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Date: Tues, Dec 05, 2000 at 01:49:37 (GMT)
From: gerry
Email: None
To: Monmot
Subject: Royal Raymond Rife (OT)
Message:
Yes, I'd like a xerox of that information, that would be great, thanks. You can send it to:

Gerry Lyng
220 E. Beck St.
McCleary WA 98557

(Uh oh, now the dead fishes will start arriving again...)

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Date: Tues, Dec 05, 2000 at 02:02:37 (GMT)
From: Monmot
Email: None
To: gerry
Subject: Royal Raymond Rife (OT)
Message:
Okey doke. I'll copy it tomorrow and ship it off to you. I'll spray perfume on the envelope so you'll know it's friendly. :-))
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Date: Sat, Dec 02, 2000 at 04:04:24 (GMT)
From: Salam
Email: None
To: gerry
Subject: Hey Salam
Message:
http://www.skolnicksreport.com/cocainbank.html
http://www.skolnicksreport.com/bushflo.html

Gerry,

As much as I want to read all of what this site has to say, I am out of time, but I did read the two links above. Everyone knows that Saddam was brought in by the CIA. Why does Kathrine Harris looks so tense in frint of the cameras. She looks as if she is having a sexual episode in aporn movie.

Can you tell me, why is everyone voting for these two characters if what this site says it is true? America sucks.

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Date: Sat, Dec 02, 2000 at 18:02:21 (GMT)
From: gerry
Email: None
To: Salam
Subject: I wish I could answer that, Salam.
Message:

America is INDEED the 'Great Satan.'

Most sheeple don't know or want to know the truth, I'm afraid. It would make them miss the latest episode of Seinfeld, I guess.

And of course, all one has to say to discredit this information is 'conspiracy nut.' Bingo.

I'm moving to Ireland when Patty gets her citizenship.

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Date: Sat, Dec 02, 2000 at 18:28:32 (GMT)
From: Stonor
Email: None
To: gerry
Subject: Not 'America' - Multinational Corps! (Sheesh!) nt
Message:
jjjj
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Date: Sat, Dec 02, 2000 at 18:45:34 (GMT)
From: gerry
Email: gkl1@techline.com
To: Stonor
Subject: Well, OK, kinda...
Message:
It IS important to distinguish between the American people and our corporate masters who also run the government, but at some point we all have to accept resposibility for the complacency and ignorance which has led us to where we are today.

The Nazi/Marijuana article was excellent btw, and a good primer for people who don't know about these things. Thanks for linking it. The deeper you dig, the dirtier it gets.

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Date: Sat, Dec 02, 2000 at 18:56:04 (GMT)
From: Stonor
Email: None
To: gerry
Subject: Well, OK, kinda...
Message:
I used to want to go to Bhutan because it was the only country that had not let multinationals within its borders. MULTInationals are everywhere, not just in the States! I absolutely agree that 'at some point we all have to accept resposibility for the complacency and ignorance which has led us to where we are today.'!!!
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Date: Sat, Dec 02, 2000 at 02:46:31 (GMT)
From: Marianne
Email: None
To: Salam
Subject: About time
Message:
No, we just execute poor people and people of color by the dozens.

What time is it in Aussie land, Salam?

Marianne

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Date: Sat, Dec 02, 2000 at 02:52:28 (GMT)
From: Salam
Email: None
To: Marianne
Subject: About time of 1:53 in the afternoon.
Message:
Well, I guess little Bush is trying to copy his father, except it is politically incorrect to do the same, so he takes on execution. Great no. I bet you first thing he does when climing on his ivory chair is starts a war. What time it is where you are(where are anyway?)?

Salam

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Date: Sat, Dec 02, 2000 at 02:56:23 (GMT)
From: Marianne
Email: MarianneDB@aol.com
To: Salam
Subject: About 6:55 at night on Friday - OT
Message:
I live in San Francisco. Getting ready for friends to arrive for dinner. They are some attorneys I work with on my death penalty cases. A lively and rather mouthy lot, as you can imagine. Pinochet and Bush will certainly be topics of discussion.

I hope Pinochet's dreams are filled with images of his victims.

Marianne

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Date: Sat, Dec 02, 2000 at 14:10:29 (GMT)
From: salam
Email: None
To: Marianne
Subject: Can we sue Bush for murder
Message:
This is sad

http://www.commondreams.org/headlines/061100-01.htm

Sheesh(wait till the CIA know where I come from).

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Date: Fri, Dec 01, 2000 at 16:27:20 (GMT)
From: FA
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: Forum Lockout
Message:
Sorry about the forum being locked for a couple of days.

There was a delay in getting the archiving done.

FA

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Date: Fri, Dec 01, 2000 at 21:00:03 (GMT)
From: Kelly
Email: None
To: FA
Subject: Is this forum addictive?
Message:
Ooh! that was scary, suddenly cut off from my new found friends.
It's worrying, I'm already showing signs of dependency! I've been spending a lot of time here. How much are you guys on? One hour a day? Two? Do you have to up the hours to get the same effect?
Am I in danger of getting sucked into an anti-cult cult?? (semi serious question)
Kelly

p.s. What does FA stand for? No don't tell me!

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Date: Sat, Dec 02, 2000 at 08:16:46 (GMT)
From: Jean-Michel
Email: jmkahn@club-internet.fr
To: Kelly
Subject: Kelly? Would you email me?
Message:
I'd like to discuss some 'Indian' stuff with you ....
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Date: Sat, Dec 02, 2000 at 09:50:17 (GMT)
From: Kelly
Email: None
To: Jean-Michel
Subject: e-mail sent nt
Message:
nt
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Date: Sat, Dec 02, 2000 at 03:33:48 (GMT)
From: DV
Email: None
To: Kelly
Subject: I look at it this way.
Message:
It took me 25 years to build this stupid fantasy, it will probably take me 25 years to deconstruct it. So I'll probably be around a long time. But don't worry, there is a lot more going on in my life! And whats wrong with sitting down in front of my laptop several nights a week to relax and check out whats going on here? I usually get a good laugh and titillation(sp) in some form or another. Beats sitcoms, and is more relevant! And if our efforts slowly chip away at Pudge and Mala's ice cream palace, then hey, more icing on the cake!
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Date: Sat, Dec 02, 2000 at 04:19:36 (GMT)
From: Salam
Email: None
To: DV
Subject: I look at it this way.
Message:
Hey remember what blubber used to say? It is not worth spending a secound on it. I'll take him on this one.
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Date: Fri, Dec 01, 2000 at 21:57:33 (GMT)
From: Hal
Email: None
To: Kelly
Subject: Is this forum addictive?
Message:
Hi Kelly,

Yes it can be very addictive at times. I found that when I first left (last feb) that I was checking in and participating a great deal.

I think I found that communicating about the whole thing was such a novelty having been around premies who never discuss any of these feelings was very refreshing.

Much of the time now I just scan quickly for items of interest but don't participate so much.

I hope you're enjoying the freedom from Rawat control. I'm feeling so good now that I'm free . I'm actually more in touch with myself than ever before and the relief of dropping those beliefs about Maha is quite wonderful!

Best wishes,
Hal

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Date: Fri, Dec 01, 2000 at 22:12:21 (GMT)
From: Kelly
Email: None
To: Hal
Subject: Is this forum addictive?
Message:
Thanks Hal...Yes it is truly refreshing, and yes I really am beginning to enjoy a sense of freedom.
There are some wonderful people on this forum and some brilliant minds, I feel like I'm in The Company of Truth perhaps for the first time!
Kelly
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Date: Fri, Dec 01, 2000 at 22:47:17 (GMT)
From: Joy
Email: None
To: Kelly
Subject: Is this forum addictive?
Message:
Oh my god, Kelly, did you say the 'M' word . . . MIND?? Yes, indeed there are some great thinkers (and expressers) on this Forum, and it is such a delight and joy to be able to use your mind without guilt and not try and squash it down, deny it, obliterate it, get beyond it etc. One of the best parts of being an ex-premie, for sure. I really enjoy being able to make friends with that part of who I am, again, and not cut off a very integral aspect of human existence.

Regarding the anti-cult cult which perhaps this might resemble, nah, you can come and go here as you please, take what you need, leave the rest, participate or not, say what you think regardless of consequence etc. That ain't a cult! Somewhere on the Forum (someone more in the know can perhaps point to where) are some of Joe's descriptions in the *best of* section about what constitutes a cult. Read that and then compare.

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Date: Fri, Dec 01, 2000 at 21:49:47 (GMT)
From: Your sponsor
Email: None
To: Kelly
Subject: F.A.A.
Message:
The FA is the head of F.A.A. (Forum Addicts Anonymous).

Aka the Forum Administrator.

However long you spend here, it will never equal the hours you spent in satsang, service and trying meditation. Actually you will never get near to 10% of hours spent in satsang alone, yet the company of these integrated recovering saints will give you far greater benefit IMHO

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Date: Fri, Dec 01, 2000 at 23:35:51 (GMT)
From: Kelly
Email: None
To: Your sponsor
Subject: Sweet F.A.
Message:
Omigod! How do you know how much time I spent in meditation?
Are you Big Brother?
Kelly
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Date: Sat, Dec 02, 2000 at 00:47:42 (GMT)
From: Cynthia
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: Is This Forum Addicting??
Message:
No. I come and go as I please. Yet I am on a mission. And that is to get to the truth behind the enormous betrayal of someone I once called 'My Lord.'

When I need it, I take a break. When I want to speak to people who understand what it was like to be addicted to Maharaji, I come here. No one else understands, not my friends, not my therapist, and not my husband.

Only ex-premies understand without explanations, what it means to be an Ex-Premie.

That's why I am here.

Best,
Cynthia

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Date: Sat, Dec 02, 2000 at 00:53:53 (GMT)
From: Cynthia
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: P.S. Is This Forum Addicting??
Message:
Last night when I came to the Forum and saw that it was locked out, my first thought was, O, they're probably doing maintenance on the site.

My second thought was, omygod, did the site get blocked by a lawsuit or threat from the EV lawyers.

Thankfully, the former was true, and here we all are, together again.

Thanks,
Cyn

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Date: Sat, Dec 02, 2000 at 02:36:52 (GMT)
From: Salam
Email: None
To: Cynthia
Subject: P.S. Is This Forum Addicting??
Message:
I had this feeling the first time it happened. Now I know why. FA oversleeps.
If you can not get on this one for some reason, normally you get an announcement on AG forum saying what's happening.
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Date: Sat, Dec 02, 2000 at 16:38:29 (GMT)
From: Katie
Email: None
To: Salam
Subject: P.S. Is This Forum Addicting??
Message:
Hi Salam -
That wasn't what happened this time, but it's as good an excuse as any :).

Take care, y'all!
Katie

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Date: Sat, Dec 02, 2000 at 03:50:25 (GMT)
From: Cynthia
Email: None
To: Salam
Subject: Well, er, ummm, cough, oh well....
Message:
I put up quite a fuss a while back about the AG so I tend to stay away. I did take a peak last night, just to check out what was going on about FV.

But, I didn't post. No big deal. Just wanted to know what was happening, and my intuition was correct. Site maintenance...

Love,
Cynthia

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Date: Sat, Dec 02, 2000 at 17:52:37 (GMT)
From: Jo Jo Savard
Email: None
To: Cynthia
Subject: Oops, sunspot interference! (darn 11 yr. cycle!)NT
Message:
or was it that Cone of Silence' I forgot to remove?
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Date: Sat, Dec 02, 2000 at 02:58:00 (GMT)
From: Jo Jo Savard
Email: None
To: Cynthia
Subject: My psychic superpowers tell me the next question
Message:
answer:

Anything Goes

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Date: Wed, Nov 29, 2000 at 21:29:11 (GMT)
From: Jerry
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: Fucking Canadians! (ot)
Message:
You believe these guys? They have an election on Monday and a new PM on Tuesday. Well, not exactly new. He's embarking on his third term. But can you figure this? These people actually vote one day and on the next they have a winner! Amazing! How come we can't do that? What's their secret? No dimpled ballots? No lawyers? Well, there's Jim, but he's part Californian. No Supreme Court? How did they do it? I am truly in awe.
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Date: Wed, Dec 06, 2000 at 16:19:37 (GMT)
From: Gail
Email: None
To: Jerry
Subject: Fucking Canadians!--and the best part is ...
Message:
Nobody seems to care who gets into power. The next day at work, the election results weren't even mentioned. Instead, people were wondering which one of your old boys would be president.

We're just the 51st state. How long does it take to place the governor back on his throne? Eh?

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Date: Thurs, Dec 07, 2000 at 03:10:00 (GMT)
From: Stonor
Email: None
To: Gail
Subject: 'We're just the 51st state.'?!!
Message:
Please speak for yourself, Gail.
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Date: Tues, Dec 05, 2000 at 03:20:53 (GMT)
From: Yves
Email: None
To: Jerry
Subject: I wished I was more of a fucking canadian.
Message:
My back wouldn't hurt so much iy I had a lillte less self-fellatio.
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Date: Fri, Dec 01, 2000 at 21:56:45 (GMT)
From: Jennifer
Email: None
To: Jerry
Subject: It's easy, Jerry!!
Message:
What is their secret you ask?

The didn't have AL GORE running for PM. (ha ha!) Everyone in Canada followed the rules and procedures of their election process, just as we Americans have done in our elections up until this current one. Hell, even Nixon conceeded right?

Jennifer

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Date: Sat, Dec 02, 2000 at 14:58:39 (GMT)
From: Scott T.
Email: None
To: Jennifer
Subject: It's easy, Jerry!!
Message:
Jennifer:

There are one or two other critical differences. These include the kinds of machines involved, the fact that they don't have an electoral system anyhow, and most importantly the fact that they have a parliamentary democracy. After all, under a parliamentary system there would be no controversy in the US right now. We would simply be governed by a center/left coalition between the Democrats and the Greens.

--Scott

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Date: Tues, Dec 05, 2000 at 06:15:17 (GMT)
From: Steve Quint
Email: the_avenger55@hotmail.com
To: Scott T.
Subject: It's easy, Jerry!!
Message:
After all, under a parliamentary system there would be no controversy in the US right now. We would simply be governed by a center/left coalition between the Democrats and the Greens.

The point is that you're assuming firstly that the Greens would have won one or more ridings and that secondly, the number of ridings they won would be enought to tip the balance of power in terms of number of ridings won by the other parties. In a representational system the overall popular vote is a bigger factor and so, if my memory serves me correctly, the Greens would have had a much greater chance of making a difference in the parliament.

Steve

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Date: Tues, Dec 05, 2000 at 16:10:25 (GMT)
From: Scott T.
Email: None
To: Steve Quint
Subject: It's easy, Jerry!!
Message:
Steve:

Actually, I wasn't thinking of the Canadian election, but rather of applying the Canadian system to the political conditions in the US. The Greens are quite capable of gaining 20% of the vote in some states here. However, I don't see any standard proportional representation system as a real possibility in the US. Standard PR is just incompatible with a presidential system, which would be very unstable. You need the capacity to call no-confidence elections to make PR reasonably stable. There might be some non-standard PR system that could work, like 'superdistricts' as the Center for Voting and Democracy has recommended.

--Scott

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Date: Tues, Dec 05, 2000 at 17:08:53 (GMT)
From: Steve Quint
Email: the_avenger55@hotmail.com
To: Scott T.
Subject: This Discussion Was Based On A Hypothesis
Message:
After all, under a parliamentary system there would be no controversy in the US right now. We would simply be governed by a center/left coalition between the Democrats and the Greens.

Standard PR is just incompatible with a presidential system, which would be very unstable.

This whole discussion was based on your 'what if' the U.S. was under a parliamentary system. Parliamentary systems have prime ministers as heads of government and sometimes presidents as heads of state, something like Canada's governor-general, nominally the queen's representative in Canada but in reality only a ceremonial figure. Anyway, the U.S. constitution seems more and more like a religious book because there have only been five amendments in my lifetime and, looking at them, pretty trivial ones:

Amendment XXIII [Presidential Vote in D.C. (1961)]

Amendment XXIV [Poll Tax (1964)]

Amendment XXV [Presidential Succession (1967)]

Amendment XXVI [Right to Vote at Age 18 (1971)]

Amendment XXVII [Compensation of Members of Congress (1992)]

It looks like the United States Of America is a cult. Oh My God!

Steve

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Date: Sat, Dec 02, 2000 at 16:34:10 (GMT)
From: Steve Quint
Email: the_avenger55@hotmail.com
To: Scott T.
Subject: In Reality
Message:
That's a joke, I think, but it could be true in a country like Israel that has proportional representation.

Steve

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Date: Sat, Dec 02, 2000 at 23:48:47 (GMT)
From: Scott T.
Email: None
To: Steve Quint
Subject: In Reality
Message:
Steve:

In most parliamentary systems the only limit on coalitions would be the number of parties represented in parliament. So, the Greens would have had to gain a majority in some districts in a non-proportional system on order to have any representatives in parliament, in order to be part of a coalition. Certainly much easier to do under PR. The Brits have 3 parties, but the Liberals rarely get more than 15% of the vote. I don't know if there has ever been a Labor/Liberal, or a Tory/Liberal government. But coalition governments are, in general, quite common.

--Scott

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Date: Mon, Dec 04, 2000 at 19:03:08 (GMT)
From: Steve Quint
Email: the_avenger55@hotmail.com
To: Scott T.
Subject: We Have A Green Party And A Marijuana Party
Message:
It's confusing. Almost as confusing as 'Progressive Conservative' which indicates that the party that ruled Canada for 12 of the last 20 years has an oxymoronic name. Politics sucks very big time.

When I said you were joking it was because the Green Party didn't get too many votes. I think the Marijuana Party did better and they only got more than 2000 votes in one riding. Usually, between 12,000 and 25,000 votes are needed to win a riding.

Steve

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Date: Mon, Dec 04, 2000 at 19:46:36 (GMT)
From: Scott T.
Email: None
To: Steve Quint
Subject: We Have A Green Party And A Marijuana Party
Message:
Steve:

As I recall a riding is more or less equivalent to our congressional district. Well, it's actually a bit smaller in terms of population. Our districts average around 125,000 voters. The reference to the Green Party was simply that Nader ran on that ticket.

--Scott

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Date: Thurs, Nov 30, 2000 at 01:43:53 (GMT)
From: Joe
Email: None
To: Jerry
Subject: Well.....
Message:
Canadians don't actually ELECT the PM; they have one of those weird parliamentary systems that they got from England, so there can never be a dispute over who won. Hell, they still have a picture of the QUEEN on their funny-colored, Monopoly-like money, that no one will accept in the USA because it's so undervalued. Tell the truth you Americans -- Don't every one of you have some worthless Candian coins in a drawer somewhere catching dust until you can get some moron to accept them?

Also, only 227 people live in Canada, so how long can it take to count their votes? And it's so fucking cold up there that they have to move really fast to keep warm, certainly a lot faster than a bunch of Palm Beach retirees sitting around the pool in 85 degree heat!

And they STILL haven't gotten around to apologizing for Celine Dion and Bryan Adams you know, so they aren't so fast about everything!

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Date: Fri, Dec 01, 2000 at 21:58:12 (GMT)
From: Jennifer
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: Well.....Joe thanks for the laugh! :)-nt
Message:
nt
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Date: Thurs, Nov 30, 2000 at 05:35:14 (GMT)
From: Cynthia
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: Hey Joe....and everyone...
Message:
I take issue with those ''worthless'' Canadian coins. I live on a border state which attracts many, many Canadian tourists here and lots of retailers accept those coins. So....if you don't want them coins sitting in your drawers...send 'em on over to me. I get can rid of them and at US value..)))))

LOLOL!

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Date: Wed, Nov 29, 2000 at 23:32:20 (GMT)
From: Sir Dave
Email: None
To: Jerry
Subject: Fucking Canadians! (ot)
Message:
Simple. The British taught them how to count.
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Date: Wed, Nov 29, 2000 at 21:37:08 (GMT)
From: Steve Quint
Email: the_avenger55@hotmail.com
To: Jerry
Subject: S/B Called Canadians Fucking Canadians! (ot)
Message:
If you knew anything about our extremely embarrassing prime minister from do-do-land.

Steve

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Date: Thurs, Nov 30, 2000 at 01:56:23 (GMT)
From: Joe
Email: None
To: Steve Quint
Subject: Is this really true?
Message:
I heard that Stockwell Day, who I guess is kind of like Pat Robertson, was running for PM on a platform for 'The Alliance' Party(Hey, you Canadians, that's FUNNY name for a political party, but what is even more FUNNY is the 'Progressive Conservative' party! Yeah, what the HELL IS THAT?). Anyhow, apparently the platform included a plank that if you could get 3% of the population to sign a petition for a piece of legislation, that his party would consider and adopt it.

I heard he dropped this particular idea after a radio station in Toronto got more than 3% of the Canadian voters to sign a petition saying that Day had to change is first name from 'Stockwell' to 'Doris.' Doris Day. That was hysterical, but I am told it's absolutely true. Did you hear this?

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Date: Fri, Dec 01, 2000 at 17:38:57 (GMT)
From: Stonor
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: 'This Hour Has 22 Minutes'
Message:
I thought of posting this a while ago, but no one here seems to have much interest in, or knowledge of Canada, so I figured it would be unnacceptably OT. From an email I received:

For those of you who didn't see it, or haven't heard about it. On Monday, November 13th, the CBC television show, This Hour Has 22 Minutes, launched a campaign to force a referendum on Stockwell Day. As you may know, Stockwell has a plan whereby if 3% of the electorate, or 350,000 people sign a petition, they can cause a national referendum on any subject they like. 22 Minutes has a website where you can sign their petition that would force Stockwell Day to change his first name to Doris - Doris Day.

We think this is a capital idea.

Please visit This Hour has 22 Minutes today and cast your vote. Tell others to do it - pass on the good word. It is predicted that they will end up with many more than 3% of the electorate, but each vote adds to their fire.


When I added my vote, they had well over 1/2 a million names! If you get CBC, check out this TV program - it is wickedly funny, but perhaps a little 'esoteric' for non-Canadians at times.

Anna

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Date: Wed, Dec 06, 2000 at 14:07:59 (GMT)
From: bill
Email: None
To: Stonor
Subject: 'This Hour Has 22 Minutes'
Message:
Hi Anna,
I like updates from Canada. You know, a lot of us read the posts and dont always post back in a thread. I wouldnt judge interest in your post by the number of responses.
Post away!
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Date: Thurs, Dec 07, 2000 at 03:15:19 (GMT)
From: Stonor
Email: None
To: bill
Subject: Thanks for the encouragement, Bill
Message:
There was a time .... ;-)

But I can't always post much, and sometimes I'm not in the mood. I also know that some of my posts don't have much to respond to - in fact sometimes I post so that there isn't - it can get quite time consuming! I actually save some of my more potentially controversial posts until I have the time and headspace to cope with the reactions!

Always enjoy yours! Thanks for all of them!

Anna

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Date: Sat, Dec 02, 2000 at 00:31:45 (GMT)
From: Cynthia
Email: None
To: Stonor
Subject: 'Royal Canadian Air Farce' on CBC is also very...
Message:
very, funny. But because I don't know all the ''characters'' in Canadian politics, the humor sometimes gets lost on me.

I also love Red Green, the Duct Tape Guy.

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Date: Sat, Dec 02, 2000 at 01:11:42 (GMT)
From: Stonor
Email: None
To: Cynthia
Subject: Red Green? Now there's a REAL MAN..unfortunately;)
Message:
The 'Duct Tape Guy' ... who could ever forget him! But his nephew (why can't I remember his name ... Arnold?) he's pretty cute too. And that chainsaw in the background! I actually haven't watched it in years - along with anything else. I decided to make a point of watching 22 Minutes tonight, but got a rerun. That always seems to happen - I figure it's a sign! ;-)
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Date: Fri, Dec 01, 2000 at 18:02:33 (GMT)
From: Joe
Email: None
To: Stonor
Subject: Wow, it really IS true -- too funny.
Message:
Thanks for the info. We don't seem to have tha kind of fun in US politics.
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Date: Fri, Dec 01, 2000 at 18:51:32 (GMT)
From: Stonor
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: Wow, it really IS true -- too funny or not.
Message:
Apparently the real Doris Day did a 'Queen Elizabeth' and was NOT amused, saying that Americans take their politics seriously. But don't be fooled - it was deadly serious. If Day had gotten in, this particular idea of his could have done real damage by tieing up time and money in very small minority referenda. Rick Mercer and the rest of the crew at This Hour Has 22 Minutes don't pull any punches, and have often had party leaders on their show to send themselves up. They also hit on them in parliamentary halls for biting 'interviews'.

A lot of 'American' comedians originate in Canada - John Candy, Jim Belushi, Andrea Martin, Martin Short, Dan Ackroyd, Alan Thick, Rick Moranis, Eugene Levy, Paul Schaeffer ...

Check it out - it's on tonight in Montreal (Fridays in BC, I think) - Rick Mercer's rants are something to experience!

As someone says, 'Many a truth is said in jest.' or, as I say, 'Flippancy can be deadly serious.'

BTW, apparently the count on the petition to have Stockwell Day change his name to 'Doris' reached over a million - AND, we had the results of our election on the SAME day.

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Date: Tues, Dec 05, 2000 at 14:11:54 (GMT)
From: JohnT
Email: None
To: Stonor
Subject: Point of info (hugely trivial)
Message:
Stonor: Apparently the real Doris Day did a 'Queen Elizabeth' and was NOT amused...

It was Queen Victoria who made the phrase 'We are not amused' famous. Maybe she'd run out of her herbal dysmenorrhea treatment (weed) that day.

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Date: Tues, Dec 05, 2000 at 20:06:11 (GMT)
From: Stonor
Email: None
To: JohnT
Subject: Thanks for that John.
Message:
I had a feeling as I wrote it that something was amiss - now I know what! That should stay in my memory bank for another 20 years or so!
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Date: Sat, Dec 02, 2000 at 00:58:13 (GMT)
From: Cynthia
Email: None
To: Stonor
Subject: To demonstrate how dumb I am about Canadian...
Message:
politics, I though Stockwell Day was a holiday! Take that in your pipe and smoke it.

I just can't keep up with this weird, weird, world....

Cyn

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Date: Sat, Dec 02, 2000 at 01:15:16 (GMT)
From: Stonor
Email: None
To: Cynthia
Subject: LOL!! Too much! I'll have to copy your post
Message:
and send it around! Thanks!
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Date: Thurs, Nov 30, 2000 at 05:52:22 (GMT)
From: ExTex
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: TRUE! (nt)
Message:
like I said ... nt
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Date: Thurs, Nov 30, 2000 at 05:16:58 (GMT)
From: Scott T.
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: Is this really true?
Message:
Joe:

'Progressive Conservative': Teddy Roosevelt.

--Scott

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Date: Wed, Nov 29, 2000 at 22:12:58 (GMT)
From: Jerry
Email: None
To: Steve Quint
Subject: S/B Called Canadians Fucking Canadians! (ot)
Message:
Steve,

You mean you didn't vote for The Great Chretian(sp)? Seriously, I don't know anything about your Prime Minister. I'm American, remember? Most of us don't even know who our own Congressman is, although we're always being told to write him, for some reason or another most of us could give a shit about.

Anyway, I did see a debate between all the contenders on CSPAN, and I wasn't too impressed with your PM, outside of it being fun to watch him trying to cover his ass from the combined assault of the other candidates. I would have voted for the broad, what's-her-name.

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Date: Thurs, Nov 30, 2000 at 05:56:55 (GMT)
From: ExTex
Email: None
To: ALL
Subject: S/B Called Canadians Fucking Canadians! (ot)
Message:
Well at least they have more than TWO parties to choose from. (Even if some of the others are called 'The Marajuana Party' and 'The Canadian Communist Party'.....)
come to think of it...hmmmm
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Date: Wed, Nov 29, 2000 at 02:23:28 (GMT)
From: Joe
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: Should Al Gore Concede? ::)) (ot)
Message:
A guy in my firm (his name, I kid you not, is Junichi Semitsu), was asked by a reporter on the street whether he thought Al Gore should conced the election. To spare everyone the pain of watching local news, here is what I said:

Reporter: Do you think Al Gore should concede?

Junichi: Concede? Al Gore should concede that George W. Bush has the intellectual firepower of an inebriated chihuahua forced to watch reruns of Alf. If you’re asking about the election, I think Al Gore should declare victory. Not only should he declare victory, he should begin appointing ambassadors, issuing executive orders, and congratulating winning football teams. After all, Al Gore clocked more votes than any other candidate – in Florida and nation-wide. Who cares about the electoral college? I don’t know anybody who attends this college, its teachings are as obsolete as Word 6.0, and its basketball team probably bites, big-time. If Bush the Second becomes president, he will become our first bastard president, which is to say that his election was illegitimate and also that he is a bastard. If this happens, I say we all move to Canada (but deport Celene Dion to the United States). Do you really think the plurality of Floridians voted for the “Compassionate Conservative,” the best oxymoron of the anno domini years, with the possible exception of “English Cooking” and “Postal Service”? Al Gore should not concede to a proxy moron in a close election when his brother is the governor of Florida, his father used to rig elections for the CIA, and one of his major Florida campaign chairpersons, Katherine Harris – who looks nothing like her brother Al Harris[NOTE, AL IS A SENIOR PARTNER IN MY FIRM] -- has the sole discretion to reject votes. Al Gore must not concede. Viva la revolucion, Alberto Gore!

This will probably be edited down to:

Al Gore should not concede.

More news at 11,

Junichi Semitsu

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Date: Fri, Dec 01, 2000 at 19:29:08 (GMT)
From: Stonor
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: 'inebriated CHIHUAHUA' (ot)
Message:
Sorry Joe, this is not at you, but in support of shp:

I have to comment that no one here has remarked that his use of the epithet 'chihuahua' has been identified as racist by anyone in this thread.

(And how did you get a transcription of his rant?!)

.

.
And no, not that I follow any politics much, but I don't think Gore should concede - I'd like to think that this crisis is opening a can of worms that needs to see the light of day. (and I love the worms in my garden!!)

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Date: Thurs, Nov 30, 2000 at 06:06:47 (GMT)
From: ExTex
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: Should Al Gore Concede? ::)) (very very ot)
Message:
That was beautiful!
Should Al concede? Of course not! That's bullshit. Concede? NO! NO! NO! COUNT THE VOTES! We are talking about conceding to a puppet/moron of the conservative elite! Can you say 'corrupt'?
-----------------------------------------------------------------

Quick question: What is the origin of the Electoral College?

Sorry, the answer isn't that quick. Well, actually it is, but it's
nasty: the Electoral College is an artifact of slavery. That's right -
our system for electing presidents has its roots in the overt ownership
of humans by other humans.

When the United States of America was formed, slave owning was still
legal in the southern states. These states insisted upon
'representation' for said slaves, at a ratio of 3/5 of a vote per
slave. Of course, the slaves, like women, were not allowed to vote.
This really was pretty simple in the House of Representatives. You
merely increased the number of Representatives that a state like Georgia
got to reflect the 3/5 of a 'citizen' each slave represented.

Unfortunately, this would not work for a Presidential election by
popular vote. It would have been messy to give all the non-indentured
adult males in S. Carolina more than one vote for President while the
same group in Connecticut only got one vote. The resulting compromise
was the Electoral College, which I imagine even George W. Bush has heard
of by now. That way, slave holding states would get credit for their
slaves when electing president without actually allowing the slaves to
vote. An interesting historical footnote is that for 32 of the first 36
years of the Republic, the President was from Virginia, the state with
the largest slave population in the Union.

So the next time someone starts telling you how the Electoral College is
somehow sacred part of an elaborate system of checks and balances, you
can tell them that they're right. It's a way of insuring that slave
owners get credit for their slaves when voting for president.

p.s. Why hasn't this issue come out in the current debate over which of
the two wastes of protoplasm who are battling for the lead in the
Electoral College should be the next President? Probably because Dubya
has no interest in bringing it up (and after all, he's pretty sure he
already went to college) and Al wouldn't want the fact that he comes
from a long line of respectable slave owners to be discussed in polite
society.

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Date: Wed, Nov 29, 2000 at 14:15:50 (GMT)
From: Sir Dave
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: Should Al Gore Concede? ::)) (ot)
Message:
Al Gore bears a striking resemblence to Superman. George W Bush bears a striking resemblence to a shifty eyed, second-hand car salesman.

Can't America see what is obvious to the rest of the world?

.. Dave

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Date: Wed, Nov 29, 2000 at 16:12:35 (GMT)
From: Scott T.
Email: None
To: Sir Dave
Subject: Howdy pardner! ::)) (ot)
Message:
David:

With all due respect, the only important issue for Americans is which one bears the closest resemblance to Howdy Doody.

Doodyville

--Scott

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Date: Wed, Nov 29, 2000 at 23:27:01 (GMT)
From: Sir Dave
Email: None
To: Scott T.
Subject: Howdy pardner! ::)) (ot)
Message:
Howdy Doody looks like something out of a Stephen King film. Now I know why Americans all need therapists.
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Date: Sat, Dec 02, 2000 at 05:51:16 (GMT)
From: ExTex
Email: None
To: Sir Dave
Subject: Howdy pardner! ::)) (ot)
Message:
Now we are on the same page!
Forget Howdy Doody. George W (W code word for WHITE...ha) bears a much closer physical resemblence to Alfred E. Neuman of MAD fame. American psychosis and the need to BELIEVE in the dream....explain the horror of Ronald McDonald!!!
Explain Kathy Lee Gifford 'fans'...
And what's up with the interest in Jerry Springer and isn't Dick Chaney really calling the shots along with nazi Tom Delay?

And who really sleeps in Lee Harvey's grave? And why are the guys in camo hiding across the street from my pad? Hey...what's that sound out there?
And has ExTex lost a few marbles or what? And what about that 'what'? LOL!
There isn't enough WACKINESS in the world yet for my tastes.

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Date: Tues, Dec 05, 2000 at 19:26:14 (GMT)
From: cq
Email: None
To: ExTex
Subject: Talking of Alfred E and George W (ot)
Message:
the resemblence between Neumann of 'Mad Magazine' fame and Dubya was amply illustrated in a link I posted last month. Wish I could find it. It was a hoot.

Unfortunately, it seems the FAs have decided to prune all OT posts from the archives, so, much as I have tried to find out where the pic came from, I'm afraid it's gone to the that great bookmark in the sky.

(one day it might turn up, though).

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Date: Wed, Nov 29, 2000 at 23:31:38 (GMT)
From: Steve Quint
Email: the_avenger55@hotmail.com
To: Sir Dave
Subject: Howdy pardner! ::)) (ot)
Message:
Very funny, Sir Dave. I grew up on Howdy Doody. He was a relief from my extremely dysfunctional family.

Steve

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Date: Wed, Nov 29, 2000 at 05:47:06 (GMT)
From: Rick
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: Should Al Gore Concede? ::)) (ot)
Message:
He really rattled all that off the top of his head? In any case, it's funny.

I watched some of the proceedings in Leon County today and it was discouraging. The judge (Sauls) seemed to be dragging his feet in providing rulings that would expedite the case. He kept offering more time than necessary for Bush's lawyers to respond to motions, and for the various counties to deliver the ballots to the court. The judge is the stereotypical good-ole boy; perfect for a Carl Hiassen novel.

A couple of polls by CNN and CNBC showed something like 60% of those polled said they wanted the election to end, and about 40% wanted to see all the ballots counted. You can look at that as either a majority wants the election concluded, *or* a subtantial percentage of people don't see the current election results as legitimate. Consistant with every thing else in this election, it's about a fine a hair as can be split.

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Date: Thurs, Nov 30, 2000 at 05:15:05 (GMT)
From: Scott T.
Email: None
To: Rick
Subject: Should Al Gore Concede? ::)) (ot)
Message:
Rick:

I supposed I'd be a lot more excited about this niggardly time preference of Americans if someone other than Gore were involved. He's not a strong preference of mine. But this Bush fellow is just bankrupt in the soul department. As long as there's any chance of keeping him out of office I'm all for it. Once he gets in, then the problem is of a different character. First priority is to get control of Congress in 2002. And will someone tell Pat Caddell to shut his stupid yap? You have to be doing something pretty extraordinary to be wrong *all* the time. Even a stopped watch...

--Scott

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Date: Fri, Dec 01, 2000 at 21:27:33 (GMT)
From: Jennifer
Email: garfarboleets@hotmail.com
To: Scott T.
Subject: Yes, he should concede.
Message:
Scott,

Your following quoted statement is a blatant illustration of the mindset behind the current tactics of the Democratic party. I have been a lifelong Democrat, but right now I am disgusted with the Democratic ticket.

'As long as there's any chance of keeping him out of office I'm all for it.' Well, it's sad that half of this nation seems to agree with you.

I am not crazy about Bush myself, but does that mean that ANY means justifies the end? Just because I want something, does it mean it's okay to lie, cheat, steal and break rules to get it? Why have any laws and procedures if this is the case?

I don't want a President who will put himself and/or his party ahead of the good of the country. It's my perception that Gore is doing this. He is putting the interests of a small group of voters in Florida ahead of what is good for the country. Just check out the stock market if you don't believe me.

And, yes, the voters in West Palm are a small group statistically. Thousands of other ballots across the country have been thrown out due to improper voting, same as in West Palm. The voters who screwed up in the rest of the country aren't getting THEIR hands held because their votes aren't determining the race. Should we recount every ballot in the country by hand, because truly that is the ONLY way to fine out the 'true intent of ALL the voters.' (She said sarcastically) Anything less is politics.

Besides, how do you figure out the intent? I have voted a straight Democratic ticket before save one person. Isn't intent completely subjective? Hasn't this thing gotten completely out of hand?

Gore may have won the popular vote, but, for those of you who do not know, that is not how we currently elect presidents in the United States of America. Maybe our system is antiquated, but we shouldn't try to correct it retroactively.

If you are interested in hearing another side of the election story (besides the one presented by the media, mostly Democrats) check out the publication 'Investors Business Daily' They may be available on-line.

I know most people here disagree with me, and so be it. I'm going to be out of town this weekend and I will not be able to read Forum responses before they go inactive. Anyone wishing to civily discuss this subject further is welcome to e-mail.

Jennifer

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Date: Sat, Dec 02, 2000 at 06:08:56 (GMT)
From: Scott T.
Email: None
To: Jennifer
Subject: Yes, he should concede.
Message:
Jennifer:

I am not crazy about Bush myself, but does that mean that ANY means justifies the end? Just because I want something, does it mean it's okay to lie, cheat, steal and break rules to get it? Why have any laws and procedures if this is the case?

I'm very angry about the misrepresentations put out by the Bush campaign. So far all of the tactics and strategies used by the Gore campaign have been strictly according to Hoyle. I don't see where they've 'broken the rules.' Indeed, the only rule breaking I'm aware of happened in Seminole County and it was done by the Republicans. As for lying, all politicians lie. It's a matter of degree. Most policy profressionals don't lie, by the way. It's a sort of pervasive ethic in the profession, because they know that what they do has such broad impact on so many lives. They may make methodological errors, but they strive to tell as much of the truth as they know.

I don't want a President who will put himself and/or his party ahead of the good of the country.

In my opinion both Bush and Gore are doing this. Both men demonstrated this same character flaw in their primary campaigns. But so far the only one of the two to place himself in a possibly disadvantageous position has been Gore. He intended to concede, and would have done so if Daly hadn't stopped him. And I think he would still accept a hand count of the entire state if Bush would agree. Pat Caddell thinks Bush would win this, but Bush hasn't been willing to risk it in order to resolve the uncertainty for the country. Don't understand why this isn't obvious to you.

Gore may have won the popular vote, but, for those of you who do not know, that is not how we currently elect presidents in the United States of America. Maybe our system is antiquated, but we shouldn't try to correct it retroactively.

I don't see anyone claiming that Gore should be president because he won the popular vote. At most, what we've been saying is that, in reality, he won Florida. I have to say that Bush has been extremely successful in convincing people that hand counts of punchcard ballots is some sort of extraterrestrial plot. I honestly have no idea how he got away with that. There are certainly more efficient ways to conduct a hand count, but I'm pretty sure Bush would oppose those. And if you don't think someone won't do a hand count of Florida in order to settle the matter you're dreamin'. They're already lining up to put a magnifying glass on those ballots, so unless a fire burns them up we'll eventually know who won to a pretty high degree of certainty, maybe halfway into the next presidential term.

Does it matter? Apparently not, since it looks like the Florida Legislature could just bypass the voters entirely if it wanted to. And the reason they aren't that concerned about being re-elected afterwards is that they're under term limits anyway. Sort of deflates that reform, doesn't it?

--Scott

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Date: Thurs, Nov 30, 2000 at 01:07:07 (GMT)
From: Jerry
Email: None
To: Rick
Subject: Should Al Gore Concede? ::)) (ot)
Message:
Rick,

I would rather see Gore as President. I agree more with his policies, and Bush is just plain despicable. Read the book, Shrub, for all the sordid details. He's really a privileged prick.

But I've been against this handcount from the get-go, and I still am. I don't like the looks or taste of it no way, no how.

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Date: Fri, Dec 01, 2000 at 21:32:56 (GMT)
From: Jennifer
Email: None
To: Jerry
Subject: Should Al Gore Concede? ::)) (ot)
Message:
I'm with you Jerry.
I am dead set against the hand count. Have a great weekend.
Jennifer
P.S. Gore is also priviledged. In addition, I know a lot of people with money who are wonderful :)
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Date: Thurs, Nov 30, 2000 at 05:58:06 (GMT)
From: Rick
Email: None
To: Jerry
Subject: Should Al Gore Concede? ::)) (ot)
Message:
Jerry,
I can agree there's lots of room for error and hanky-panky with a hand count. If there wasn't actually something at stake, I'd say screw the hand count because it's getting too complicated.

But the prospect of Bush is just too scary and it makes the point of accuracy in this election as muddled as the initial outcome. We can't tell who won and we'll never know, so whoever can weasle their way in is going to get it.

If a hand-count means the environment is better off, and the disenfranchised are better off, then it's a blurry line I don't mind seeing crossed. You can't have fair and square, anyway, when the lens is already so blurry.

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Date: Fri, Dec 01, 2000 at 21:39:51 (GMT)
From: Jennifer
Email: None
To: Rick
Subject: Weasel is right (ot)
Message:
Rick,

You said,
'We can't tell who won and we'll never know, so whoever can weasle their way in is going to get it.'

According to the electoral college, which is how we elect Presidents currently (however antiquated) George Bush won. The votes were counted three times (in some cases, four) and the votes were certified and he was declared the winner of the electoral college, as painful as that may be for all of us.

Now, if you are talking popular vote, you are right, we will never know. A lot of people all over the country screwed up their votes (as they do in each election--thousands are thrown out EVERY time, not just this time and not just in Palm Beach)and they were thrown out (this happened in a large area of Georgia, but did not make national news.)

I do think that Al Gore is trying to 'weasel' his way into winning. I couldn't have chosen a better word for that myself. Thanks!

Have a good weekend,
Jennifer

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Date: Fri, Dec 01, 2000 at 21:52:35 (GMT)
From: Rick
Email: None
To: Jennifer
Subject: Weasel is right (ot)
Message:
Hi Jennifer,
Certainly, by a particular set of rules, George Bush won. Fortunately, it's still up for debate. But the point I was trying to make is that despite the fact Bush won Florida by about 500 votes, the margin of error is greater than that. This means that although the final count (so far) shows Bush the winner, it's impossible to determine who really and truly won (i.e., who actually got more votes in Florida).

The extent to which you object to Gore's current tactics is related to just how weasley you think they are, and just how repugnant you find the prospect of a Bush presidency. The fear one feels of Bush being in office is proportionate to how far one doesn't mind Al Gore going to get in office.

One main point is that Gore is using completely legal means to try to secure this election. If you find Gore legal tactics of trying to get office ugly, I find what Bush will do legally, when he gets in office, even more ugly.

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Date: Fri, Dec 01, 2000 at 22:20:26 (GMT)
From: Jennifer
Email: None
To: Rick
Subject: Thanks for the civil discourse, Rick(ot)
Message:
Well, I guess I have a different take on things than you do. I see what you are saying, but I disagree. I don't think it's okay for Gore to do what he is doing to win, just because some people (even me) might think he would be preferrable as President. How can a man like Gore stand up and swear to defend the Constitution of the United States as its President, when he is unwilling to honor it now?

I used to want Gore to win, but what he is doing has changed my mind. I see his tactics as self-serving, especially in light of the current economic repurcussions of his political manuvering on our country and the world markets. If his manuvers weren't effecting the Nasdaq and the stock market so adversely, would I still object to them? Yes, I would based on principle.

You said that Bush won 'by a particular set of rules.' Those rules were what each campaign knew they had to abide by going into this race. They knew how the electoral college worked. Neither campaign, Democratic or Republican, objected to the electoral college prior to the race. Also, they knew that if their voters screw up in the booths, their votes don't count. There are rules governing that process, too. Do you understand what I am driving at?

Now, I think it's GOOD that some of these things have happened, because our system needs to change and we can see that now. But do I think Gore is justified just because he would be a better leader? No. Now I don't believe he would be a better leader anyway.

For what it's worth, I'm not thrilled with a Bush victory. I am pro-choice, I am for gay rights, I am against the Christian coaliton stances that the Republican party supports. I am more of a fiscal conservative than most Democrats, but I do believe in a strong central government (strong and LARGE are two different concepts :) You seem afraid of Bush, but at least he hadn't done any harm to the country yet. (ha ha!) Can Al Gore make the same claim? Hardly.

Take Care, Rick,
Jennifer

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Date: Sat, Dec 02, 2000 at 05:39:52 (GMT)
From: Scott T.
Email: None
To: Jennifer
Subject: Concessions and other errors(ot)
Message:
Jennifer:

Just for the sake of clarity:

Hand counting punch card ballots is universally recognized as a way of improving the accuracy of the vote count. Not only has it been used in virtually every state, but the manufacturer of the machines uses hand counts to calibrate their machines.

I don't think it's okay for Gore to do what he is doing to win, just because some people (even me) might think he would be preferrable as President. How can a man like Gore stand up and swear to defend the Constitution of the United States as its President, when he is unwilling to honor it now?

I don't know what you're saying. How is Gore not honoring the Constitution? Of course he's being self serving? Isn't Bush? So Bush lost 800 votes with the first machine recount, and another 400 with the incomplete hand count that he pulled every trick in the book to subvert. Do you think this trend has nothing to do with his insistance that we stop counting NOW?

Look, in general a Gore win would be a lot more trouble for me than it's worth, but in some strange way I think I've had a peek into Bush's soul and it seems like a pretty ugly thing. It's just an impression, mind you.

I think Laurence Tribe's analogy with a photo finish is apt. Bush wants to go with the call of the near sighted referee, but perhaps given the stakes we ought to demand a little higher resolution.

BTW, there aren't any ballots that come under the heading 'voter error' that are in contention any longer. All of the not-fully-punched ballots are due to machine, rather than voter, error.

And this election might still be determined by fraud. In Seminole County the official in charge of absentee ballot requests apparently allowed activists from the Republican Party to take some 5000 applications to GOP headquarters so that they could have volunteers fill out information that was missing. These were already disqualified ballots. This same election official denied this access to Democrats, which takes it out of the realm of a hyper-technical violation and places it (possibly) in the fraud category. So, some time around Dec.6 the Bush vote might drop by 5000 votes. Similar situation in Martin County.

I guess the thing that makes me nervous about Bush is that I recognized in some of the callous things his operatives said about the 'Jews for Buchanan' voters, that they really have a sort of character flaw. I just don't trust someone who can't imagine themselves in another's position. I don't think such people have any business in leadership positions. It scares me in the same way that having a frayed clutch cable scares me on a motorcycle. It's just visceral.

Now, it's not that I think Gore is any better. It's just that he's harder to read. And it really comes down to the fact that I trust the people around Gore more than I trust the people around Bush.

--Scott

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Date: Sat, Dec 02, 2000 at 16:55:56 (GMT)
From: Ben Lurking
Email: None
To: Scott T.
Subject: Concessions and other errors(ot)
Message:
Scott,
If you are going to have a hand count and there are about 160,000+ non-votes or under counts in Florida how can hand counting 9000 of those votes be an accurrate method of determining the winner? As much as I would like to blame Gore for the condition of the market and the dollar taking a beating a lot of that has to do with earnings. Weeks ago I posted that the economy was slowing down and I have seen it in our business for the last few months. We moved 40% of our 401k's into cash and bonds about 3 months before the election. If this goes beyond the courts to the legislature or the congress and the senate then we are in for a hard landing. The economy is slowing down, the spending from the cash rich earnings poor companies (dot-coms) are going away. Regardless of who gets elected be prepared for another down turn or slowing in the economy.
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Date: Tues, Dec 05, 2000 at 01:19:51 (GMT)
From: Scott T.
Email: None
To: Ben Lurking
Subject: Concessions and other errors(ot)
Message:
Ben:

If you are going to have a hand count and there are about 160,000+ non-votes or under counts in Florida how can hand counting 9000 of those votes be an accurrate method of determining the winner?

Quite honestly, this argument would be a lot more credible if the so-called citizen's groups making it were contesting ballots and asking that there's be counted, rather then attempting to keep ballots from being counted. The strategy is pretty transparent. They could contest ballots, and demand manual counts in any county they like. When questioned by the Supreme Court of Florida as to whether they wanted any ballots counted they said 'no.' So, in light of that one would have to conclude that counting all 160,000+ undervotes in the state would probably only help Gore more, or at least that's what *they* think. Anyway, given that they had the same access to the same procedures as the Gore camp the fact that they failed to avail themselves of the opportunity is not a valid argument that the contest is unfair. The Leon County ruling was particularly abysmal on that issue. Even the US Supreme Court refused to grant cert on those grounds, so Judge Sauls was just making that stuff up out of whole cloth.

I expect the FL Supreme Court to overturn the Leon County ruling, at least in part. They simply can't allow that horribly reasoned judgment to stand.

As for the economy, I can't see how things are that bad. Productivity is still high, it's just that the high tech sector is saturated for the time being. It had to happen eventually. Basic industries are still strong. Clearly no one gives a damn who the president is anyway, so I can't see it having more than a temporary effect, unless a Bush presidency signals some sort of structural change. Maybe the Republicans are scaring people.

Anyway, if I had any extra money I'd buy since there'll eventually be a big rebound.

--Scott

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Date: Wed, Nov 29, 2000 at 02:28:45 (GMT)
From: Marianne
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: Should Al Gore Concede? ::)) (ot)
Message:
Where did he get the presence of mind to say this?

Is he an FBM partner?

And what channel is it on?

Marianne

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Date: Wed, Nov 29, 2000 at 20:00:14 (GMT)
From: david m
Email: None
To: Marianne
Subject: OT
Message:
Hey Marianne..How are things I lost your e-mail address If you sill have mine send me a note...How was Ireland....Just catching up on some expremie stuff..Its 22 here today.yuck...Peace..david
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Date: Fri, Dec 01, 2000 at 17:02:11 (GMT)
From: Robyn
Email: None
To: david m
Subject: David and Marianne
Message:
Dear David,
How are you honey! :) I got a forward from you a bit ago and have been meaning to drop you a line but haven't yet. Nice to see you here though.
Marianne, how are you? Are you going back to Ireland? If so when?
Love,
Robyn
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Date: Sat, Dec 02, 2000 at 02:50:48 (GMT)
From: Marianne
Email: MarianneDB@aol.com
To: Robyn
Subject: Hey there Robyn! OT
Message:
Hey Goddess! How are you? Were your ears burning as david and I talked about you offline? All wonderful of course.

Send me an email with your phone number.

I am going back to Ireland on January 1 and staying til April 25. I'll tell ya more by email or phone.

Much love, many hugs,
Marianne

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Date: Wed, Nov 29, 2000 at 20:32:36 (GMT)
From: Marianne
Email: MarianneDB@aol.com
To: david m
Subject: Hi david! OT
Message:
david! Nice to see you. So winter has hit Michigan? Any snow yet? Ireland was great. I'm going back again in January for almost 5 months.

Email me and we can chat a bit more.

Marianne

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Date: Wed, Nov 29, 2000 at 02:24:55 (GMT)
From: Joe
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: Correction: that is what HE said.
Message:
I was not a part of that brilliant piece of satirical writing and take no credit for it.
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Date: Wed, Nov 29, 2000 at 08:03:04 (GMT)
From: KD
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: Correction: that is what HE said.
Message:
Hi Joe,

How about the Sing-Along Messiah at Davies Symphony Hall on Dec. 5 to take your mind off the election?

Love, Moi

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Date: Wed, Nov 29, 2000 at 17:43:21 (GMT)
From: Cynthia
Email: None
To: Everyont
Subject: I was just watching CSPAN-Live FLA Legislature(OT)
Message:
I happened to click on CSPAN and the Fla. legislature is being broadcast live. They had scheduled today to take testimony from Palm Beach County residents about their lost votes due to the ballot confusion. The legislature switched the agenda from taking testimony to electing/selecting electors, and these people drove 7 hours to Tallahassee to testify. They're really pissed off. African Americans and Jewish people from Palm Beach County got up and starting telling the committee off so well, I was proud. One Jewish woman said, just because we live in Palm Beach doesn't mean we're stupid and sit by the pool all day. We want our votes counted. A white 19 year old woman spoke about her extensive efforts in the African-American neighborhoods registering people to vote, arguing with them why their vote counts, and was very angry. She also told them that ''this is NOT OVER.'' Amazing to watch.

I don't believe in polls anyway, and our constitution isn't based on polls. After watching these brave citizens demanding with such passion that their votes be counted was an inspiration.

No concession from Al Gore....I'm willing to wait, regardless of what the pollsters and talking heads say. Let Clinton run the country until the votes are counted.

The nerve of Bush to claim victory. I can't stand to even look at the guy; the way he purses his lips all the time, and makes those weird facial expressions makes me want to slap his face and say ''wake up dummy!' And he is a dummy.


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Date: Fri, Dec 01, 2000 at 21:53:07 (GMT)
From: Jennifer
Email: None
To: Cynthia
Subject: I was just watching CSPAN-Live FLA Legislature(OT)
Message:
You said, 'The nerve of Bush to claim victory.'

Actually, it was his to claim. The nerve of Gore to challenge it when the votes from Florida were certified. I think some people in this country need a US civics lesson.

And another thing. No offense, but the way someone looks is not reason enough to like or dislike them politically. That kind of thinking is what got Ronald Reagan elected!! (snicker)

Jennifer
Ex-Democrat and Non-Republican

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Date: Sat, Dec 02, 2000 at 00:28:23 (GMT)
From: Cynthia
Email: None
To: Jennifer
Subject: I was just watching CSPAN-Live FLA Legislature(OT)
Message:
Hi Jennifer,

I know that the way someone looks is not something to judge, but something about Bush's facial expressions irritate me; plus I really think he is very dumb...I'm very far left politically, so I guess I just can't stand either of the candidates. I do wish I had voted my conscience and gone with Nader....live and learn, right?

Also, I've been watching too many comedians and Sat. Night Live.

I disagree, I don't think it's his to claim yet. I'm willing to wait and see:))

Cynthia

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Date: Tues, Nov 28, 2000 at 20:01:33 (GMT)
From: Lesley
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: Lotus Eater, rip
Message:
Well, that does it...someone called me a Lotus Sniffer further down. Seriously though, I am so over the pseudonym now. And I don't do S, S, or M. As I told a premie friend, I relate to my breath now the same way I did as a child, see I can say that because I have been taught all my adult life to believe the breath to be my connection to god. HA!

My name is Lesley, and I can't talk about Maharaji long without calling him a cunt.

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Date: Wed, Nov 29, 2000 at 01:06:27 (GMT)
From: Disculta
Email: None
To: Lesley
Subject: Unfair to cunts! (nmt)
Message:
I wouldn't bless MJ that way.
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Date: Wed, Nov 29, 2000 at 01:59:14 (GMT)
From: Salam
Email: None
To: Disculta
Subject: Hello, Ladies
Message:
You both wrong, he is a prick.
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Date: Wed, Nov 29, 2000 at 02:13:19 (GMT)
From: Stonor
Email: None
To: Salam
Subject: LOL!!! LOL!!! (you gentleman, Salam!)
Message:
Can you believe I had a colleague that tried to turn 'cunt' into a friendly greeting to other women!! Some of the people I've worked with! And no, it didn't catch on1 ;-)
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Date: Wed, Nov 29, 2000 at 12:40:37 (GMT)
From: ham
Email: None
To: Stonor
Subject: Here in good ole essex land
Message:
it's used regularly with wide meanings purely dependent on context, and obviously tone of voice.

From the type of woman who eats men for breakfast, just absorbs them,

to a real compliment, the obvious positive/warm pulse vibrant stuff (much rarer, but not a surprize when it comes

Mostly it's used in a light tone to a mate, to make a point, but no bad vibes, unless the mate didn't listen, ie 'don't be such a cunt'.

Think it just refers to people who are only thinking of themself.

If you'd met some essex women, you'd understand why it's evolved here at least.

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Date: Sat, Dec 02, 2000 at 04:11:01 (GMT)
From: Heidi the Cunt
Email: None
To: ham
Subject: Hamzen Fan Club OT
Message:
I fuckin luv ya, man.
HtC
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Date: Tues, Dec 05, 2000 at 02:32:53 (GMT)
From: ham
Email: ham@hamzen.freeserve.co.uk
To: Heidi the Cunt
Subject: Really bloody great seeing u here heidi
Message:
And coming from you that was a real compliment, thanx

Can I still get you on the same e-mail add?

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Date: Wed, Nov 29, 2000 at 16:15:13 (GMT)
From: Cupid Stuntz
Email: Loaf@superheros.as
To: ham
Subject: Its all in the best PASSABLE taste !
Message:
... then all my clothes fell off !

Crossing his legs outrageously

Loaf
(A cunning stunt if ever i saw one !)

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Date: Wed, Nov 29, 2000 at 14:23:40 (GMT)
From: Stonor
Email: None
To: ham
Subject: Here in good ole ex-colony land ...
Message:
hmmm, that makes a bit of sense - my 'colleague' is an anglophile who has spent some time in Londo and thereabouts. It would not be well received by me no matter what the context! (but you probably guessed that! Terms of endearment/disaffection - two sides of the same coin. Just call me Anna! ;-)
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Date: Sat, Dec 02, 2000 at 04:12:07 (GMT)
From: sam
Email: None
To: Stonor
Subject: only what we made 'em
Message:
anna, remember that they were really proper anglo-saxon words- not 'dirty slurs' (hehe)in the beginning.
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Date: Sat, Dec 02, 2000 at 18:30:49 (GMT)
From: Stonor
Email: None
To: sam
Subject: Have you checked the OED? I will soon! (nt)
Message:
anna
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Date: Wed, Nov 29, 2000 at 22:13:49 (GMT)
From: Disculta
Email: None
To: Stonor
Subject: Go see 'Vagina Monologues' OT
Message:
A new one-woman show I just saw. It's fabulicious! Don't miss it when it comes through your town.

There is an amazing scene in it in which she acts out each letter in the word C-U-N-T so orgasmically that it may never seem like a hate word again to me. Well, don't try it with me, but it was incredible to see it reclaimed, full-body, with audio-visual display of pleasure and ecstasy, yet still, somehow, family entertainment.

In my hometown of San Fran which is quite open, the newscaster who was reviewing the play on TV was unable to say the word Vagina, and reviewed the whole thing calling it the 'V' monologues. When he handed back to his female co-anchor, she was having a hysterical giggling fit over the fact that he had even said 'V' and they had to cut from her to someone else because she had lost it in embarassment and shame. I guess that's what the Vagina Monologues is about - how embarrassed and shameful we have become about this essential and sacred part of ourselves.

Ranting with love Disculta

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Date: Thurs, Nov 30, 2000 at 03:11:44 (GMT)
From: Stonor
Email: None
To: Disculta
Subject: Go see 'Vagina Monologues' OT
Message:
Sounds interesting - penis worship and vagina desecration seems to be the norm here in the west, and that might be one way to help to fight it. It's clear that it's one thing the east has right with their concepts of yoni and lingam, yin and yang (which, by the way, also means 'both sides' of the same coin, for example). Have you ever seen 'The Burning Times'? It was a film made by the NFB (National Film Board of Canada) examining the Inquisition - it will make you weep in anguish. And I hope that you check out that link I posted below to Salam, 'Watch what you say about women! (God'll get angry)'. It's pretty wild!

Love your rants!

Anna

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Date: Thurs, Nov 30, 2000 at 02:18:31 (GMT)
From: Marianne
Email: MarianneDB@aol.com
To: Disculta
Subject: San Francisco?
Message:
I am here too. Please email me.

Marianne

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Date: Wed, Nov 29, 2000 at 02:26:52 (GMT)
From: Salam
Email: None
To: Stonor
Subject: Stomor, your my man
Message:
Ooops. I meant to say my woman.

did you get my last e-mail?

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Date: Wed, Nov 29, 2000 at 02:52:52 (GMT)
From: Stonor
Email: None
To: Salam
Subject: Saram, you're my woman!
Message:
Yes, and I finally found the new part of your story where my computer saved it, but you never answered my questions about it. (Is that the email you're talking about? Or did you finally send me a picture of your invisible wonder dog?)

(love your typos, but mostly your sense of humour! ;-)

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Date: Wed, Nov 29, 2000 at 03:14:24 (GMT)
From: Salam
Email: None
To: Stonor
Subject: I have a confesion to make
Message:
Since I started scanning rawats book 'Who is gumji li' I had to replace three scanners. Naturally I am afraid to bring the book anywhere closer to the scanner. Also this last scanner must be in a women movement. It refuses to do what I want it to do, so I guess it may be going to meet it's destiny like my previous printer, which is on top of my gum tree. Sheesh. Talk about saving the environment,
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Date: Wed, Nov 29, 2000 at 04:06:55 (GMT)
From: Stonor
Email: None
To: Salam
Subject: Watch what you say about women! (God'll get angry)
Message:
And I thought you were going to confess that Tyson was a vision you had practicing k! And do you really want a passive bimbo for a partner? I could never understand that about many men ... yuck!

Now, my guru, your humble chela would like to share with you something she found on the web:

Who is JE-HO-VAH? Are you sitting down? Good. Now this is going to be a 50-megaton blast, so hold on tight. The name 'Jehovah,' is a code word used in the place of God's actual name. This code was used because (according to the 'revisionists') if anyone should say God's real name, 'the entire universe would end.' So they said. So they invented a code word known as the TETRAGRAMMATON. This code is composed of four letters, YHWH. It can be used in place of God's real name. You are allowed to pronounce it 'Jehovah' or 'Yahweh' (and a couple of lesser used variations). What is important here is that this code supposedly represents not the name actually, but rather what God is.

So that you can understand, let's translate YHWH to Latin. 'Y' translates to 'I.' So the first letter is to announce that 'I' am what follows. Now hold onto your hats, let's translate the final three letters and end any doubt you may have had about the gender of the deity speaking in the above verse. HWH = 'EVE' when translated to Latin. Y-H-W-H = I-E-V-E. What does 'EVE' mean? It is the Prime word for all females on this planet. It means 'WOMAN' I-WOMAN = I-EVE = Y-HWH. I did not make this up. It was put there in the Bible by the early writers to atone for changing so much else. They felt okay to change a woman to a man, but they drew the line at changing the identity and gender of their deity. If the truth ever became known, they would be able to fall back on this and say, 'See we didn't change this, and it says<140>I WOMAN'

'The Way'

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Date: Thurs, Nov 30, 2000 at 01:29:45 (GMT)
From: Salam
Email: None
To: Stonor
Subject: GOD sucks
Message:
Stonor,

That WAY link is great. Best science fiction I’ve read for a while. I e-mailed them asking for explanation for one and two thing, but Mr. know it all must have either returned to the cosmic soup or he is having a private conversation with Marry.

As far as women being gods and stuff like that, This is what my not so humble opinion think of what the bible says about it.

( heaven according to the bible)

Genesis 3:1: 'Now the serpent was more subtle than any beast of the field which the LORD God had made. And he said unto the woman, Yea, hath God said, Ye shall not eat of every tree of the garden? 2: And the woman said unto the serpent, We may eat of the fruit of the trees of the garden: 3: But of the fruit of the tree which is in the midst of the garden, God hath said, Ye shall not eat of it, neither shall ye touch it, lest ye die. 4: And the serpent said unto the woman, Ye shall not surely die: 5: For God doth know that in the day ye eat thereof, then your eyes shall be opened, and ye shall be as gods, knowing good and evil. 6: And when the woman saw that the tree was good for food, and that it was pleasant to the eyes, and a tree to be desired to make one wise, she took of the fruit thereof, and did eat, and gave also unto her husband with her; and he did eat. 7: And the eyes of them both were opened, and they knew that they were naked; and they sewed fig leaves together, and made themselves aprons. 8: And they heard the voice of the LORD God walking in the garden in the cool of the day: and Adam and his wife hid themselves from the presence of the LORD God amongst the trees of the garden. 9: And the LORD God called unto Adam, and said unto him, Where art thou? 10: And he said, I heard thy voice in the garden, and I was afraid, because I was naked; and I hid myself. 11: And he said, Who told thee that thou wast naked? Hast thou eaten of the tree, whereof I commanded thee that thou shouldst not eat? 12: And the man said, The woman whom thou givest to be with me, she gave me of the tree, and I did eat. 13: And the LORD God said unto the woman, What is this that thou hast done? And the woman said, The serpent beguiled me, and I did eat. 14: And the LORD God said unto the serpent, Because thou hast done this, thou art cursed above all cattle, and above every beast of the field; upon thy belly shalt thou go, and dust shalt thou eat all the days of thy life: 15: And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel. 16: Unto the woman he said, I will greatly multiply thy sorrow and thy conception; in sorrow thou shalt bring forth children; and thy desire shall be to thy husband, and he shall rule over thee. 17: And unto Adam he said, Because thou hast hearkened unto the voice of thy wife, and hast eaten of the tree, of which I commanded thee, saying, Thou shalt not eat of it: cursed is the ground for thy sake; in sorrow shalt thou eat of it all the days of thy life; 18: Thorns also and thistles shall it bring forth to thee; and thou shalt eat the herb of the field; 19: In the sweat of thy face shalt thou eat bread, till thou return unto the ground; for out of it wast thou taken: for dust thou art, and unto dust shalt thou return. 20: And Adam called his wife's name Eve; because she was the mother of all living. 21: Unto Adam also and to his wife did the LORD God make coats of skins, and clothed them. 22: And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever: 23: Therefore the LORD God sent him forth from the garden of Eden, to till the ground from whence he was taken. 24: So he drove out the man; and he placed at the east of the garden of Eden Cherubims, and a flaming sword which turned every way, to keep the way of the tree of life.'

This is truly interesting. First the antagonists. These are God, a snake, and 2 humans. Second, there is a place referred to as heaven. Third there is an apple tree.

Well the scene starts like this:

Now the serpent was more subtle than any beast of the field which the LORD God had made. And he said unto the woman, Yea, hath God said, Ye shall not eat of every tree of the garden?

God is warning 'women' not to do anything against his will. This is racism. It is mentioning women at the start, so that at the end, women can be blamed for the disaster.

Mr. snake interjects and says:

And the serpent said unto the woman, Ye shall not surely die: 5: For God doth know that in the day ye eat thereof, then your eyes shall be opened, and ye shall be as gods, knowing good and evil.

Clever snake. How did he know? Was he God's pet, or was he another God, that the first God did not like. What is God’s real agenda. Why does not he want man/women to eat apples?

7: And the eyes of them both were opened, and they knew that they were naked; and they sewed fig leaves together, and made themselves aprons.

The two morons have decided to do it their way. Adam realizes he is naked, the same with Eve, they both eye each other, get horney for the first time, think it is great and go bonking behind a tree.

Is this God's agenda, to stop Adam and Eve from bonking. Remember, in heaven life is eternal. So both did not have to breed to keep the species going. But apparently there is a price to pay. One must be a zombie to be in heaven. The snake also says that the human race has achieved godhood, due to the fact that Adam and Eve know what is false and what is true. They also know how to bonk, which appears to be something that nilifies the need for GOD.

22: And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil

Anyway, the rest is history.

What interest me most is the snake. This creator appears to have healing power and the power to deliver knowledge. In all cultures the snake is good, the only place that I find this creature to be bad is in the bible. Who were the real writers of the Book of Genesis? The look that they were powerful men that were afraid to admit to few things, such as women were not to blame, God is a bullshit merchant and few other things that I can not think of.

Well, I think what happened is wonderful. I do not see why should we be all sinners. It is great to be out of heaven and able to procreate. Hamsters do it, so why can not we? Above from the medical factor of how Adam and Eve managed to live forever without a little nokie (cloning?, how fascinating) and then having to do it overnight, I think humanity has to rejoice. Why?

NO MORE CULT BRAINWASHING US, that is why.

I see the image of Adam and Eve as that of two premies, God is fatty, and the snake is ex-premie. While the two zombies are all so blind to everything around them accept blubber, here comes an ex and tells them what a crappy person is god. They wake up and decide to be free. You see, this story has been going one for thousands and thousands of years and god has always sucked, Just like Rawat.

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Date: Thurs, Nov 30, 2000 at 05:09:58 (GMT)
From: Cynthia
Email: None
To: Salam
Subject: Salam...what you on? Bible stuff?
Message:
Salam,

Sweetheart, do you know how many people have tried to intrepret the bible? Kagillions. Bazillions.

I look at the bible as this: a serial book, written and published at different times in ancient history by many different folks. Yes, they were just plain folks, just like us, trying to figure out God. Ancient history. Can I learn from them? Maybe, but I find it very tedious and stay away from them. That's my choice, I'm not telling you what to do.

What I want to look at now is how I got so brainwashed by a goooorooo in my youth; why I was vulnerable to him at the time, and how on this great Mother Earth I ever believed a word he ever said.

Unlike a lot of folks here, I never look at ancient scriptures of any kind. The reason is because I used to use those scriptures to rationalize my own belief that M was my lord. And he encouraged it.

Do you know that M has actually said he has never read the Gita or any other scriptures? I heard him say that once, a couple of years ago. He said, Oh I never read the Gita, Upanishads, etc., that's just what people have told me. (no wonder he gets them all screwed up so often!)

Maharaji is too goddamned drunk and stupid to make it through a book like the Gita, and I won't waste my time on any kind of scriptures. That's my personal choice.

Besides, Salam, God really is a woman::::)))))))))

You take care now, and if you want to read some really good books, there's an author by the name of Tom Robbins who lives in Seattle, Washington. He's an American author and has written several outrageously funny, satirical, and deep books. I've read all of his books and my favorites are:

Skinny Legs and All
Another Road Side Attraction
Still Life With Woodpecker
Even Cowgirls Get the Blues
and now I'm reading his latest:
Fierce Invalids From Hot Climates

I haven't figured out how to make these links click yet, but look him up, I think you will enjoy:::)))))

http://www.rain.org/~da5e/tom_robbins.html

You will laught until your tummy hurts! Not too many novelists do that to me--make me laught right out loud. If you haven't read any of his books, check him out. Screw the bible!

Love,
Cynthia

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Date: Thurs, Nov 30, 2000 at 03:23:45 (GMT)
From: Stonor
Email: None
To: Salam
Subject: Salam! Heaven help me! Bible quotes at FV?!!!
Message:
I see you missed the part at 'The WAY' where they say that the snake is a symbol of DNA. And I have another book that suggests that the 'apple' was really 'magic' mushrooms/Amanita Muscaria. It has a full colour plate of a fresco from the Abbaye de Plaincourault in the center of France, dated around 1300, showing Adam and Eve standing beside the mushrooms with a snake winding up through them. I think it's time to change the subject or it will move into Terrance McKenna soon! (don't ask!)

You're final interpretation of the symbology is great!

Anna

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Date: Thurs, Nov 30, 2000 at 05:58:34 (GMT)
From: Salam
Email: None
To: Stonor
Subject: Now look here you two infidels
Message:
I am a very enlightened soul. I only come to F5 to communicate these messages to you; otherwise I can take off in my spaceship.

Well, Cynthia me dear, I will check who this character is, sounds interesting. Remember that Rawat took us for a free cosmic ride on his crystal surfboard. He used the bible as his crutch to woo the west. I think it is part of being free to be able to look at the bible and criticize it. The final outcome is still the same.

I do not think that I understand what religion and spirituality are anymore. They do not register. In fact I doubt that there is such a thing as to become spiritually enlightened. The way I see it is that once I understand that I am complete and one, then everything will fall into place. No guru, no bible, no nothing. I am me and me is I. Even reincarnation (if it exists) becomes useless. Because why do you need to come back for? There is nothing to learn. Sacabo. Finished.

I think I am rabbiting a bit here. Better stop eating mushroom.

Stoner, I like to know more about your theory on mushrooms. How does that fit in the scheme of things? Do not know about DNA, Sounds to far fetch.

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Date: Sat, Dec 02, 2000 at 03:45:36 (GMT)
From: Cynthia
Email: None
To: Salam
Subject: Salam, I was just busting your ass...
Message:
Dear Salam,

I would never presume to tell you what to read or not read. Being in the US with so many right wing christian zealots, I am soooooo tired of bible stuff.

Far be it from me to try to censor anyone. Infidel, indeed!

Love,
Cynthia

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Date: Sat, Dec 02, 2000 at 16:37:57 (GMT)
From: Steve Quint
Email: the_avenger55@hotmail.com
To: Cynthia
Subject: Salam, I was just busting your ass...
Message:
At least you're not busting his balls. Assuming Salam's a him. Around here you never know I guess. I could even be a she, right?

Steph

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Date: Sat, Dec 02, 2000 at 17:36:36 (GMT)
From: Salam
Email: None
To: Steve Quint
Subject: Salam, I was just busting your ass...
Message:
Assuming also that everyone here has an ass. Otherwise were in trouble.

I am a he. What are you?

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Date: Sat, Dec 02, 2000 at 03:23:12 (GMT)
From: Stonor
Email: None
To: Salam
Subject: Now look here you infidel
Message:
It's not MY theory, but R. Gordon Wasson believed that halucinogens might be the precursors to 'trance' oriented religions. Sorry, can't scan you the book or pics (Soma the Divine Mushroom), but here is a related link from the section 'Shamanism: Archaic Technique of Ecstacy' at the Evolution/Involution of Consciousness (JUST REMEMBER, NONE OF THESE ARE MY THEORIES!!!):

amanitas

And watch those mushrooms, remember Shroom? You don't want to become like him, do you?!!!

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Date: Sat, Dec 02, 2000 at 04:36:59 (GMT)
From: Salam
Email: None
To: Stonor
Subject: Great link
Message:
Not to sure about the shroom but. I wonder what Fonkie is up to now a days?
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Date: Tues, Nov 28, 2000 at 00:13:10 (GMT)
From: gErRy
Email: None
To: Everyone esp FA
Subject: I'm about to throw a hissy fit...
Message:

I want my way, dammit !!! Get rid of this bimbo/bjorn fucker. Delete his posts. Block him. Cyber-erase his ass. Whatever. But I'm about to go caps on this guy and it will get ugly...


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Date: Tues, Nov 28, 2000 at 13:54:19 (GMT)
From: FA
Email: None
To: gErRy
Subject: Go caps...?
Message:
The forum couldn't take the fallout.

We've decided to ban Bimbo instead.

FA

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Date: Tues, Nov 28, 2000 at 00:44:05 (GMT)
From: Roger eDrek
Email: drek@oz.net
To: gErRy
Subject: gErRy, you are killing the Forum good will
Message:
gErRy!

There you go again. We're trying not to be cult-like here at the Forum and we're trying to be nice and not do that 'fuck off' thing no more, although I see you did manage to avoid that one this time.

Bimbo is a human being just like you. Bimbo is most likely an honest sincere person who wants to provide balance to the discussions that at times can be pretty damning to Maharaji. Bimbo provides the important counterpoint that will keep premies coming back.

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Date: Tues, Nov 28, 2000 at 00:58:22 (GMT)
From: gErRy
Email: None
To: Roger eDrek
Subject: I just can't kick my cult tendencies, Rog! (nt)
Message:
nt
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Date: Tues, Nov 28, 2000 at 00:40:46 (GMT)
From: Sir Dave
Email: None
To: gErRy
Subject: I'm about to throw a hissy fit...
Message:
Gerry; this was once tried before - all the premies were banned and within a few days, people were begging them to come back. We were even reduced to pretending to be premies ourselves to try to start arguments.

You wouldn't like it if premies didn't post here, Bjorn/Bimbo included. It's just your mind telling you that you don't like them. Just surrender and let it flow, Gerry - just let go man.

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Date: Tues, Nov 28, 2000 at 00:53:08 (GMT)
From: gerry
Email: None
To: Sir Dave
Subject: Ah, a soothing balm
Message:
Yes, surrender, let it flow...oops I just peed my pants! Thanks Dave!!!

:)

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Date: Tues, Nov 28, 2000 at 00:47:01 (GMT)
From: Marianne
Email: None
To: Sir Dave
Subject: Agree with gErRy -- Hey FA!
Message:
Bimbo/Bjorn should be banned. And Sir Dave, Gerry's not referring to premies in general, he's referring to someone who has been banned here repeatedly before. His posts about Jagdeo, Susan and Abi should have made him unwelcome here permanently.

What about it, FA?

Marianne

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Date: Tues, Nov 28, 2000 at 00:55:19 (GMT)
From: Sir Dave
Email: sirdavid12@hotmail.com
To: Marianne
Subject: I think banning isn't the answer
Message:
I don't think banning is the answer. It's easy to get round an IP ban these days. I feel the only way to get round this problem is to convince Bimbo that some of his posts are not the correct assessment of the situation. Just banning him will not do that and he will be none the wiser.

If he's banned again, history will just repeat itself again and again.

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Date: Tues, Nov 28, 2000 at 01:47:36 (GMT)
From: Cynthia
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: What Is the Answer?
Message:
I just watched the 20/20 show about the abuse of Krishna children and I can't talk about it. They only gave 10-15 minutes to the piece and what those children went through was horrific. They didn't mention India at all, just the law suit in the US and a few of the plaintiffs spoke about their lost childhoods and what happened to them. Very sad.

I don't know what should be done about Bimbo, Bjorne or whoever. He has no sense of decency, and he has shown great disrespect toward the adults who were abused as children in the cult. What to do? I don't know. It's not my decision, but I sense this person is mentally unstable and derives enjoyment out of hurting people. He's just like a perpetrator who knows how to push the right buttons and keeps right on pushing until all kinds of triggers go off--anger at Maharaji for his betrayal, and especially anger about Jagdeo for his crimes. Maybe ignoring Bimbo is the answer. Frankly, I'm having a hard time communicating with someone who calls themself Bimbo. It's ridiculous, almost silly, but in a warped way.

There's a difference between some premies who come here to argue and discuss and those who receive a pleasure out of their disruption. This character is sadistic. That much is clear to me. Some people don't have the ability to learn and that seems to be the case with this Bimbo person.

That's all I have to say about it. I have to go cry for the Krishna kids now.

Later,
Cynthia

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Date: Tues, Nov 28, 2000 at 01:42:53 (GMT)
From: hamzen
Email: None
To: Sir Dave
Subject: He's a victim as well, after all he didn't
Message:
get where he is today without plenty of the cult virus in his brain.

Limited postings seems to be an ok move on the fa's part, changing your IP address regularly would get a bit tedious no?
Does it involve more than just changing server?

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Date: Tues, Nov 28, 2000 at 01:50:07 (GMT)
From: Cynthia
Email: None
To: hamzen
Subject: hamzen, he may be a victim of the cult, but
Message:
he victimizing those here who have already been hurt beyond comprehension.

That's the difference.

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Date: Tues, Nov 28, 2000 at 02:04:32 (GMT)
From: hamzen
Email: None
To: Cynthia
Subject: Don't get me wrong Cynthia, just pragmatics.
Message:
Sir Dave says it's easy to change ip numbers, so he's gonna be around.

Wasn't excusing him, just trying to undersdtand his motivations.

Being here feels like being in a nightclub without good security.
The only way to deal with objectionables is to understand them, especially if beating up verbally or being fair doesn't work, and the ability to kick them out fully isn't even on the agenda for technical reasons..

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Date: Tues, Nov 28, 2000 at 02:09:11 (GMT)
From: Cynthia
Email: None
To: hamzen
Subject: hamzen, I know it's a difficult call, just
Message:
putting in my 2cents. I'm very tired of Bimbo today.
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Date: Tues, Nov 28, 2000 at 05:24:48 (GMT)
From: hamzen
Email: None
To: Cynthia
Subject: Understandable, your reaction to his posts,
Message:
the guy really is off on one
a right warped bubble brain
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Date: Sun, Nov 26, 2000 at 23:59:01 (GMT)
From: Scott T.
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: Shroud of Turin (OT?)
Message:
Hi:

I recently saw a rather longish program on the History Channel dealing with the 'Shroud of Turin,' which is supposed to have been the burial cloth covering Jesus of Nazareth after his crucifixion, and also bearing some sort of evidence of his resurrection. I found it quite interesting since it seemed to take the position that, in spite of decades of research attempting to debunk the authenticity of the relic, virtually all evidence seems to point to the conclusion that it may indeed be what it purports to be.

I've read a number of skeptical accounts of this research that, frankly, don't quite measure up. They fail to supply an adequate or credible explanation for the existence of the shroud and the evidence it presents, and fail to raise any skeptical arguments that have not been dealt with successfully. I'm not sure what to make of this, so if anyone is familiar with this controversy please submit your thoughts. In the mean time here is a url for a rather provocative article about the implications of research into the authenticity of the shroud, that may thoroughly offend some committed atheists.

Shroud of Turin

What do you think?

--Scott

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Date: Tues, Nov 28, 2000 at 10:08:48 (GMT)
From: janet
Email: None
To: Scott T.
Subject: one of my favorite subjects
Message:
thanks for introducing it into discussion. and thanks for adding to my knowledge of it. the headcloth was unknown to me.
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Date: Mon, Nov 27, 2000 at 00:33:20 (GMT)
From: Sir Dave
Email: sirdavid12@hotmail.com
To: Scott T.
Subject: Shroud of Turin (OT?)
Message:
There is some compelling evidence that it is a clever fake, probably made during the Medieval period.

The evidence is not that hard to spot, once you think about the physical characteristics of how the shroud and image work. The thing which points to a clever fake is the face on the shroud.

Looking at the blood imprints of the face on the shroud, at first glance it seems OK. But, if you try and copy the shroud using a real face and head, or model of same, then the discrepency comes to light. Because if you wrap a shroud round a real bloodstained head, when opening the shroud again, the blood imprints will be much further apart than on the Shroud of Turin, because it has been wrapped around a head.

Some researchers have come to the conclusion that a real sized head was not used when making the blood imprints of the head and face but an almost flat 3D image of a face as was common in Medieval times. Such almost flat, 3D images were made of plaster and were hung on walls etc during that time. According to researchers, only a flat 3D image of a face would have made blood markings, the same as are on the Shroud of Turin.

I would have to see more about this subject to be totally convinced but it does point towards a very clever fake. However, there is one thing which puzzles me. In Medieval times, the crucified Christ is shown as having nails through his hands. This is an historical mistake because in Roman crucifixion, the nails were put through the wrists in order to provide better purchase when the body was suspended from a cross or wall.

And in the Shroud of Turin, the nails are seen to have been put through the wrists of the supposed crucified person. (Also, I believe the legs are broken which again, holds true with historical Roman crucifixion.)

This muddies the water somewhat and I am not too clear what to think. Perhaps it is a very historically accurate fake? The wrong sized facial imprints do require careful scrutiny though.

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Date: Mon, Nov 27, 2000 at 16:45:21 (GMT)
From: Scott T.
Email: None
To: Sir Dave
Subject: Shroud of Turin (OT?)
Message:
David:

I forgot to mention the results of C14 dating, which point to a date around 1300, approximately the time when the shroud appeared in Europe and the beginning of a period when it's history is uncontested. More recent arguments have been submitted as to why the Carbon dating might have been thrown off, and other evidence concerning plant material on the shroud places the place and time in correspondence with the purported origin in 1st Century CE Palestine.

I still tend to think it's fake, largely because to my eye it looks fake. So, I'd like to see someone directly tackle the two major questions that remain as to it's authenticity: the wraparound anomaly and whether or not the JPL imaging technology would generate an expected distortion if the image that is a flat representation of a bas relief. That, of course, still leaves an issue as to why other elements of the shroud still point to it's authenticity.

Apparently the owners of the shroud will not allow any conclusive C14 tests to be conducted. Sorta reminds me of the Bush refusal to accept the results of a statewide manual recount. (Sorry about the OT/OT analogy.)

--Scott

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Date: Mon, Nov 27, 2000 at 19:41:39 (GMT)
From: Sir Dave
Email: None
To: Scott T.
Subject: More anomolies
Message:
I'd say myself that our carbon dating methods are open to so much error that the tests on the shroud are inconclusive.

There are further striking anomalies which are apparent to the most casual observer.

The hair on the head of the supposedly deceased person is hanging down towards the shoulders, as if the person was buried in an upright position. If the body had been wrapped in a shroud and then placed in a tomb, it would almost certainly have been layed down horizontally and not in a standing up position. Yet a horizontal body would cause the long hair to flow back (in relation to the head) and the hair would appear to be swept back on the photographic negative.

Then we have the anomaly of the head cloth that was supposedly put over Christ's head after he had died, to cover his disfigurement. A headcloth that is purported to have been the one on Jesus's head has been discovered and is called The Sudarium of Oviedo and this is far more authentic than the Shroud of Turin.

A headcloth was put over a deceased person by the Jews when their face had been disfigured by injury, as Christ's appears to have been. Such a cloth would not have been removed when the body was placed in a tomb and yet the Shroud of Turin does not indicate that there was a headcloth on the body.

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Date: Tues, Nov 28, 2000 at 04:13:27 (GMT)
From: Stonor
Email: None
To: Sir Dave
Subject: Or not
Message:
The site you posted above suggests that findings on the Oviedo sudarium support the Shroud of Turin.

5: Conclusions

The studies on the sudarium and the comparison of this cloth with the Shroud are just one of the many branches of science which point to both having covered the dead body of Jesus. The history of the Oviedo cloth is well documented, and the conclusions of this for the dating of the Shroud need no further comment.

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Date: Tues, Nov 28, 2000 at 03:25:25 (GMT)
From: Scott T.
Email: None
To: Sir Dave
Subject: More anomolies
Message:
David:

My understanding of the Sudarium is that the face cloth was put in place at the site of death, but was removed when the shroud was placed on the corpse in the burial chamber. Indeed, at that point the face cloth would be redundant. The description in the Gospel says the the sudarium was found 'rolled up' in the tomb, which is what would have happened when it was removed prior to replacing it with the shroud. Furthermore, the graphic of the sudarium, when overlayed against the image on the shroud, has a 1 to 1 correspondence between all the significant points. The graphic overlay on the program I saw was quite convincing.

Yeah, the hair looks sort of fakey. The whole head/face image looks fakey. On the other hand a full head of kinky hair with a lot of body would probably not fall back very much. Indeed, the hair in front would be held up by the mass of hair further back. It could also be a matter of projection. It's not a neat and tidy explanation, but it's a lot more believable than that camera obscura crap about how the image was created in the first place.

But I just keep coming back to the fact that the face just doesn't look like a real human face. It looks like a poorly rendered bas relief of that period, which was right in the middle of the big 'High Gothic' projects. I could be convinced otherwise. Supposedly the JPL guys were in process of preparing a fully rendered 3D image of the figure. I don't see how they could do that without making a load of assumptions, but I'd still like to see it.


--Scott

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Date: Mon, Nov 27, 2000 at 01:25:13 (GMT)
From: Scott T.
Email: None
To: Sir Dave
Subject: Shroud of Turin (OT?)
Message:
David:

The 'wraparound' theory is about the only viable argument I've heard that it's a fake. In fact, it looks like a painting or sculpture rather than a real face. However, graphical digital analysis of the face using technology at JPL belies the notion that the face is a 2D representation of a 3D object produced either by a photographic or artistic process. I'm not sure if anyone has investigated the possibility that the image is a representation of a bas relief, which might explain the lack of distortion. There are theories that the image itself was produced using an early form of the 'camera obscura' some three centuries prior to its acknowledged date of invention, but I can't figure why a forger would want to use such a process since there was no analytical method that could have made it any more convincing than other methods that would have been much easier and more reliable to produce. And there are no traces of silver nitrate left on the shroud anyway.

The details about the wrist wounds as well as other details about the blood and wound evidence on arms, legs, and face, are also puzzling, and chemical analyses of plant spores found on the shroud all point to origins in Israel around the time of Christ. Still, the image looks kind of fakey. You'd think that a genuine image of Christ would evince some sort of involuntary recognition, but to me it just looks like a typical medieval painting. If there were some sort of 3D reproduction, using a rational algorithm, that explains why the image looks so fakey I'd be inclined to dismiss that objection.

--Scott

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Date: Mon, Nov 27, 2000 at 00:45:56 (GMT)
From: Salam
Email: None
To: Sir Dave
Subject: Shroud of Turin (OT?)
Message:
This is has been going for on for ages. I think it is a con job, put out by the Catholic Church to bring in the revenues.

Why is it that only JC left this trace. Why did not Moses, mohamed, Buddah do it? What about that moron Krishna. He had a whole chariot. Where is it? Naaah, not me. Better think of how the world will be under water in 20 years if the American Goverment carries on the way it does.

Salam

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Date: Mon, Nov 27, 2000 at 01:33:02 (GMT)
From: Scott T.
Email: None
To: Salam
Subject: Shroud of Turin (OT?)
Message:
Well, Moses, Mohammed, and Buddha weren't resurrected for one thing. Anyway, it's a damn clever fake demonstrating something close to prescience about modern methods of analysis if that's what it is. And we know the history of the thing since the 1300s, so it's at least that old.
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Date: Mon, Nov 27, 2000 at 15:30:36 (GMT)
From: gerry
Email: None
To: Scott T.
Subject: Well maybe Moses, Mohammed, and Buddha weren't
Message:
resurrected, but Osiris, Dionyius, Mithras and others were. As well as being god men, they were born on Dec 25th of a virgin, attended by shepherds, performed miracles, changed water into wine, were killed, rose from the dead after descending into the underworld and now sit at the right hand of god in paradise.

Oh and afterwards, they were celebrated with a ritual drinking and eating of bread and wine which was representative of their body and blood...

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Date: Mon, Nov 27, 2000 at 16:21:31 (GMT)
From: Scott T.
Email: None
To: gerry
Subject: Well maybe Moses, Mohammed, and Buddha weren't
Message:
Gerry:

Yeah, but what's the resale value on Mithraic religious relics? No bull. :-)

--Scott

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Date: Tues, Nov 28, 2000 at 02:08:09 (GMT)
From: Salam
Email: None
To: Scott T.
Subject: Well maybe Moses, Mohammed, and Buddha weren't
Message:
We take religions at face value as if they really existed. I always thought that anyone believing the bible should also believe in Santa. Was not there something in the way too far past called the oricles. Like the oricle of Dianne and the oricle of ga ga googee. These were the religions of the day(at least in the middle east). Someone mixed the whole thing up and came up with the story of christ. Do not belive me. Well you are an infidel, check this guy out

http://www.truthbeknown.com/default.htm

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Date: Mon, Nov 27, 2000 at 02:44:50 (GMT)
From: Salam
Email: None
To: Scott T.
Subject: Shroud of Turin (OT?)
Message:
You would say buddha would have left a bum mark where he sat for so many years, someone could have kept Mohameds' sowrd. As far as Moses is concerened, the closest mount Sinai is few thounsands ks from where it is supposed to be. So that is religion for you.

Rawat still sucks but.

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Date: Mon, Nov 27, 2000 at 20:24:19 (GMT)
From: Cynthia
Email: None
To: Salam
Subject: Shroud of Turin..If I may butt in(OT?)
Message:
Hi all,

Your thread peaked my interest because my husband and I saw that Discovery docmentary too. I kept saying it's a fake, it's a fake, what a crock, why spend so much money trying to figure it out? Tom kept saying, so what if it's a fake, it has value in dollars and, as an piece of antiquity, it is very valuable to study.

I don't agree with him on that point--it's a piece of cloth. But he does know about these things because he does art restoration and conservation, and works with people who collect antiquities from Japan and China, among other places, so I guess from the standpoint of scientists, as well as collectors, it does have value.

Just my 2cents, and worth it!
Cynthia

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Date: Tues, Nov 28, 2000 at 03:35:43 (GMT)
From: Scott T.
Email: None
To: Cynthia
Subject: Shroud of Turin..If I may butt in(OT?)
Message:
Cynthia:

So, if it's a piece of artwork does your husband have any idea how it was produced? What about the wrist wound and ankle wound images? Those are *very* peculiar because, although we know they are authentic now they would probably strike a 14th century person as inauthentic. Why would one go to the trouble of faking a detail that would only fool a 20th century person, and would actually work against you in the 14th century? It seems very strange indeed. AFAIK there are no works of art of that period that showed wounds in those areas, though I haven't a very extensive knowledge of that art.

--Scott

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Date: Thurs, Nov 23, 2000 at 22:08:33 (GMT)
From: Marianne
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: Hey FA, can you get rid of this garbage..
Message:
that is taking up space on the forum? Djuro, etc...

Many thanks,
Marianne

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Date: Fri, Nov 24, 2000 at 00:22:52 (GMT)
From: Katie
Email: None
To: Marianne
Subject: Hey FA, can you get rid of this garbage..
Message:
Hi Marianne -
I think Djuro already has limited posting privileges. Also think he just wants attention.

Take care -
Katie

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Date: Thurs, Nov 23, 2000 at 22:10:59 (GMT)
From: FA
Email: None
To: Djuro
Subject: Go forth and multiply
Message:
Djuro, your nasty premie insults and cult garbage are not wanted here.

Go forth and multiply.

FA

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Date: Fri, Nov 24, 2000 at 03:27:53 (GMT)
From: Gregg
Email: None
To: Djuro
Subject: Djuro...
Message:
Djuro: Some of us don't mind the occasional premie posting. It refreshes our collective memories.

However, you never write more than a sentence, giving us no chance to really understand what you are trying to communicate.

Perhaps your English isn't too good. Would you mind telling us where you are from? Maybe we would be more understanding. And maybe you could take more time to express yourself.

This space is about ideas. If you don't have any ideas, having successfully conquered the demon mind, then...Jai Sat Chi Anand.
Bye.

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Date: Fri, Nov 24, 2000 at 03:43:34 (GMT)
From: Salam
Email: None
To: Gregg
Subject: Gregg
Message:
I am starting to think that Djuro is some kind of robotic machine that can but together certain words based on a responce, because if you consider all his post, there is nothing in them that indicates the need to communicate, Just flat meaningless statements.
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Date: Thurs, Nov 23, 2000 at 22:43:16 (GMT)
From: Tim
Email: timgitti@indigo
To: Djuro
Subject: Hey FA, can you get rid of this garbage..
Message:
Have a look at my message to you under the thread 'Maharaji loves you all'.And easy does it .
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