Forum V: Archive
Compiled: Sun, Dec 31, 2000 at 15:16:37 (GMT)
From: Dec 18, 2000 To: Dec 27, 2000 Page: 4 Of: 5


Quatrain Queen -:- Prediction from Nostradamus (OT) -:- Thurs, Dec 21, 2000 at 06:04:24 (GMT)
__ Can it be -:- Bush(nT) -:- Thurs, Dec 21, 2000 at 06:49:28 (GMT)
__ __ Salam -:- Bush -:- Thurs, Dec 21, 2000 at 13:04:50 (GMT)
__ __ __ Helen -:- HA! -:- Thurs, Dec 21, 2000 at 21:47:59 (GMT)
__ Buzz -:- Prediction from Nostradamus (OT) -:- Thurs, Dec 21, 2000 at 06:24:35 (GMT)
__ __ janet of venice -:- Prediction from Nostradamus (OT) -:- Fri, Dec 22, 2000 at 09:44:10 (GMT)

Patrick -:- Hey! where's that parody of MD's contract gone? -:- Thurs, Dec 21, 2000 at 02:39:52 (GMT)
__ Danny (clear enough?) -:- The Michael Dettmers Confidentiality Agreement -:- Thurs, Dec 21, 2000 at 21:14:49 (GMT)
__ FA -:- The disappearing post. -:- Thurs, Dec 21, 2000 at 13:02:56 (GMT)
__ __ cq -:- Censored 'cos you don't agree with the poster? -:- Thurs, Dec 21, 2000 at 14:31:05 (GMT)
__ __ __ Oliver -:- Second e-m attempt bounced,.... (OT) -:- Thurs, Dec 21, 2000 at 20:52:06 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ cq -:- problem found - and solved (OT) -:- Fri, Dec 22, 2000 at 14:27:32 (GMT)
__ __ __ JohnT -:- Hear! Hear! -:- Thurs, Dec 21, 2000 at 17:17:57 (GMT)
__ __ __ Sir Dave -:- It's just not cricket, is it (nt) -:- Thurs, Dec 21, 2000 at 14:34:21 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ FA -:- The Power is Mine -:- Thurs, Dec 21, 2000 at 18:48:37 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ cq -:- Thank you Mr Goebels. But seriously ... -:- Fri, Dec 22, 2000 at 14:38:44 (GMT)
__ Danny -:- Hey! where's that parody of MD's contract gone? -:- Thurs, Dec 21, 2000 at 09:07:41 (GMT)
__ __ Joe -:- Face it, Danny -:- Thurs, Dec 21, 2000 at 19:40:01 (GMT)
__ __ __ Monmot -:- Danny's Suffering From Severe Rawautism nt -:- Fri, Dec 22, 2000 at 17:59:57 (GMT)
__ __ __ Susan -:- great post Joe (nt) -:- Thurs, Dec 21, 2000 at 21:58:52 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ such -:- great posts Way and Joe; READ, die-hard dupes (nt) -:- Thurs, Dec 21, 2000 at 22:13:03 (GMT)
__ __ Way -:- To Danny for the upteenth time -:- Thurs, Dec 21, 2000 at 19:08:31 (GMT)
__ __ __ Danny -:- To Danny for the upteenth time -:- Thurs, Dec 21, 2000 at 20:08:51 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Way -:- Ok, Danny, -:- Thurs, Dec 21, 2000 at 21:30:48 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Way -:- Danny, please add 'hit and run' to... -:- Thurs, Dec 21, 2000 at 22:09:04 (GMT)
__ __ __ Joe -:- Great Post, Way .... everyone, please read (nt) -:- Thurs, Dec 21, 2000 at 19:24:21 (GMT)
__ __ AJW -:- Why don't you... -:- Thurs, Dec 21, 2000 at 13:07:53 (GMT)
__ __ __ Danny -:- This is why -:- Thurs, Dec 21, 2000 at 20:56:08 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Larkin -:- If the cap fits... -:- Fri, Dec 22, 2000 at 11:58:36 (GMT)
__ __ Nigel -:- Hey! where's that parody of MD's contract gone? -:- Thurs, Dec 21, 2000 at 12:54:39 (GMT)
__ __ Sir Dave -:- It's an outrage! -:- Thurs, Dec 21, 2000 at 11:43:11 (GMT)
__ __ Patrick -:- Hey! where's that parody of MD's contract gone? -:- Thurs, Dec 21, 2000 at 11:18:27 (GMT)
__ __ __ Danny -:- Hey! where's that parody of MD's contract gone? -:- Thurs, Dec 21, 2000 at 21:09:38 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ gerry -:- that's what I don't understand either, Danny -:- Fri, Dec 22, 2000 at 17:38:51 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ gerry -:- A possible answer for myself and Danny -:- Fri, Dec 22, 2000 at 20:56:41 (GMT)
__ gerry -:- phew patrick, that's an eyeful... -:- Thurs, Dec 21, 2000 at 02:54:41 (GMT)
__ The Cache -:- One Slightly Mangled Parody -:- Thurs, Dec 21, 2000 at 02:53:25 (GMT)
__ __ JohnT -:- Censored reply to censored parady -:- Thurs, Dec 21, 2000 at 13:57:04 (GMT)
__ __ __ FA -:- Censored reply to censored parady -:- Thurs, Dec 21, 2000 at 19:03:57 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ JohnT -:- Whassup? -:- Fri, Dec 22, 2000 at 09:59:11 (GMT)
__ __ AJW -:- Ha fucking Ha... -:- Thurs, Dec 21, 2000 at 13:17:01 (GMT)
__ __ __ Salam -:- Ha fucking Ha... -:- Thurs, Dec 21, 2000 at 14:08:31 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ AJW -:- Ha fucking Ha... -:- Thurs, Dec 21, 2000 at 18:50:52 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Salam -:- Come back here -:- Thurs, Dec 21, 2000 at 23:26:52 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Nigel -:- Come back here -:- Sat, Dec 23, 2000 at 15:37:53 (GMT)

Mr. Free -:- What was the scandal with swami Amar Jyoti -:- Thurs, Dec 21, 2000 at 02:22:41 (GMT)
__ Helen -:- Swami Amar Jyoti was my first guru -:- Fri, Dec 22, 2000 at 04:34:49 (GMT)
__ Gregg -:- swami Amar Jyoti -:- Thurs, Dec 21, 2000 at 18:17:26 (GMT)
__ bill -:- Same answer in all those cases -:- Thurs, Dec 21, 2000 at 03:29:26 (GMT)
__ Cynthia -:- Knock it off. Stop wasting our space with your -:- Thurs, Dec 21, 2000 at 02:35:17 (GMT)
__ __ Mr. Free -:- May Satan enter into your soul -:- Thurs, Dec 21, 2000 at 05:34:36 (GMT)
__ __ __ Sir Dave -:- That's not very nice, Mr Free -:- Thurs, Dec 21, 2000 at 11:52:50 (GMT)
__ gerry -:- don't know; don't care -:- Thurs, Dec 21, 2000 at 02:33:48 (GMT)
__ __ Mr. Free -:- don't know; don't care -:- Thurs, Dec 21, 2000 at 05:36:26 (GMT)
__ __ __ Youdiditagain -:- don't know; don't care -:- Thurs, Dec 21, 2000 at 06:51:22 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Mr. Free -:- don't know; don't care -:- Thurs, Dec 21, 2000 at 07:36:13 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Youdiditagain -:- don't know; don't care -:- Thurs, Dec 21, 2000 at 09:27:59 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Mr. Free -:- don't know; don't care -:- Sat, Dec 23, 2000 at 00:33:49 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Youdiditagain -:- don't know; don't care -:- Sat, Dec 23, 2000 at 03:33:39 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ jpf v -:- take your own advice.its screaming at you/ -:- Fri, Dec 22, 2000 at 10:48:43 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Youdiditagain -:- Yes, you are screaming and saying nothing! -:- Sat, Dec 23, 2000 at 00:27:49 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Mr. Free -:- For the love of Christ on a cross! -:- Sat, Dec 23, 2000 at 00:53:35 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Youdiditagain -:- For the love of (For the love of, {NOT}) -:- Sat, Dec 23, 2000 at 03:53:29 (GMT)

Here, for the 1st time! -:- The Michael Dettmers Confidentiality Agreement -:- Wed, Dec 20, 2000 at 21:51:42 (GMT)
__ JohnT -:- & the last time, I hope -:- Wed, Dec 20, 2000 at 22:54:21 (GMT)
__ Bin Liner -:- Hi Danny you are a proper little Chameleon nt -:- Wed, Dec 20, 2000 at 22:04:30 (GMT)
__ __ Mr. Free -:- Hi Danny you are a proper little Chameleon nt -:- Thurs, Dec 21, 2000 at 00:44:46 (GMT)

GAC -:- Pimping for Prem Pal Singh Rawat -:- Wed, Dec 20, 2000 at 18:15:30 (GMT)
__ Windflower -:- Pimping for Prem Pal Singh Rawat + Webmaster skill -:- Thurs, Dec 21, 2000 at 13:55:47 (GMT)
__ Susan -:- time to sing 'Golden Way' at the ranch in Utah -:- Wed, Dec 20, 2000 at 19:36:32 (GMT)
__ __ Bin Liner -:- time to sing Silent Night and dream of what .. -:- Thurs, Dec 21, 2000 at 02:26:24 (GMT)
__ Sir Dave -:- Pimping for Prem Pal Singh Rawat -:- Wed, Dec 20, 2000 at 18:58:55 (GMT)
__ __ Mr. Free -:- Pimping for Prem Pal Singh Rawat -:- Thurs, Dec 21, 2000 at 00:54:20 (GMT)

kap -:- 16 people interested so far in the ranch -:- Wed, Dec 20, 2000 at 16:21:23 (GMT)
__ gerry -:- Hey last time you said Utah... -:- Wed, Dec 20, 2000 at 16:28:43 (GMT)
__ __ kap -:- Hey last time you said Utah... -:- Thurs, Dec 21, 2000 at 14:07:34 (GMT)
__ __ Mr. Free -:- This idea is not clearly thought out -:- Wed, Dec 20, 2000 at 17:27:07 (GMT)
__ __ __ janet of venice -:- the poles are melting-forget hawaii -:- Fri, Dec 22, 2000 at 11:00:01 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ charlie(kap) -:- the poles are melting-forget hawaii -:- Fri, Dec 22, 2000 at 14:25:38 (GMT)
__ __ __ kap -:- the co-op model is well know and as you stated. -:- Thurs, Dec 21, 2000 at 14:32:00 (GMT)

shp -:- To Michael Dettmers Re your confidential agreement -:- Wed, Dec 20, 2000 at 16:20:13 (GMT)
__ Michael Dettmers -:- My response -:- Wed, Dec 20, 2000 at 23:09:25 (GMT)
__ __ JTF -:- Thanks, Michael -:- Thurs, Dec 21, 2000 at 12:39:05 (GMT)
__ __ shp -:- Just a word, Michael -:- Thurs, Dec 21, 2000 at 03:59:08 (GMT)
__ __ __ AJW -:- Hi Sandy -:- Thurs, Dec 21, 2000 at 19:08:24 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ shp -:- Hi Anth -:- Fri, Dec 22, 2000 at 00:27:29 (GMT)
__ __ __ Salam -:- Shp -:- Thurs, Dec 21, 2000 at 12:09:23 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ shp -:- We ALL deserve the same respect -:- Thurs, Dec 21, 2000 at 12:51:18 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Salam -:- Thank you -:- Thurs, Dec 21, 2000 at 13:09:53 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ shp -:- Why do you always have to be into the juice? -:- Thurs, Dec 21, 2000 at 13:33:57 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ janet of venice -:- sandy,its not yours only, here.make room -:- Fri, Dec 22, 2000 at 11:36:26 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ shp -:- Dear Janet -:- Fri, Dec 22, 2000 at 17:11:37 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ shp -:- Dear Janet / PS -:- Fri, Dec 22, 2000 at 17:28:18 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Salam -:- I like being in the juice -:- Thurs, Dec 21, 2000 at 14:15:50 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ shp -:- One more time and that is it -:- Thurs, Dec 21, 2000 at 15:32:52 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Salam -:- My mouth is shut -:- Thurs, Dec 21, 2000 at 16:34:41 (GMT)
__ __ Bazza -:- Just a thought.... -:- Thurs, Dec 21, 2000 at 02:44:38 (GMT)
__ Mr. Free -:- Michael was he OK in the beggining? -:- Wed, Dec 20, 2000 at 17:41:21 (GMT)
__ __ JohnT -:- Me Free, he was always a fake -:- Wed, Dec 20, 2000 at 22:39:13 (GMT)

christian -:- where is jim hawks -:- Wed, Dec 20, 2000 at 15:50:23 (GMT)

christian -:- would like to contact any santa cruz friends . -:- Wed, Dec 20, 2000 at 15:48:41 (GMT)
__ Mickey the Pharisee -:- would like to contact any santa cruz friends . -:- Wed, Dec 20, 2000 at 20:55:47 (GMT)

Capricornicus -:- M would love this ranch -:- Wed, Dec 20, 2000 at 02:42:28 (GMT)

Joe -:- What the hell is this??? -:- Wed, Dec 20, 2000 at 00:01:38 (GMT)
__ Nigel -:- In synch or going down it? (nt) -:- Sat, Dec 23, 2000 at 05:49:35 (GMT)
__ AJW -:- Synchronisation -:- Thurs, Dec 21, 2000 at 18:55:34 (GMT)
__ Steve Quint -:- What the hell is this??? -:- Thurs, Dec 21, 2000 at 17:31:14 (GMT)
__ Cynthia -:- Joe.... -:- Wed, Dec 20, 2000 at 20:34:01 (GMT)
__ __ Joe -:- My Palm Pilot -:- Wed, Dec 20, 2000 at 23:01:03 (GMT)
__ __ __ la-ex -:- eric and charlene -:- Thurs, Dec 21, 2000 at 00:26:44 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Joe -:- eric and charlene -:- Thurs, Dec 21, 2000 at 00:34:45 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Cynthia -:- Hi Joe: eric and charlene -:- Thurs, Dec 21, 2000 at 00:53:41 (GMT)
__ TED Farkel -:- Now hold on there Mr. Joe-you'd be great! -:- Wed, Dec 20, 2000 at 03:01:57 (GMT)
__ Ben Lurking -:- FAETESM? fatism fatal fail by follow M -:- Wed, Dec 20, 2000 at 02:30:51 (GMT)
__ Sir Dave -:- I'm the man for the job, I think -:- Wed, Dec 20, 2000 at 01:03:14 (GMT)
__ __ Selene -:- actually Sir Dave -:- Wed, Dec 20, 2000 at 01:15:30 (GMT)
__ __ __ gerry -:- actually Selene -:- Wed, Dec 20, 2000 at 01:18:39 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Roger eDrek -:- This is a job for gErRy! -:- Wed, Dec 20, 2000 at 01:53:15 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Selene -:- oh -:- Wed, Dec 20, 2000 at 01:19:56 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ gerry -:- Yes, it was called 'Demming's Lemming' I think... -:- Wed, Dec 20, 2000 at 01:27:40 (GMT)
__ Selene -:- it's relief we don't have to go there -:- Wed, Dec 20, 2000 at 00:43:38 (GMT)

Mr. Free -:- Don't Let Negativity become a cult -:- Tues, Dec 19, 2000 at 23:56:38 (GMT)
__ Bazza -:- The good news? -:- Wed, Dec 20, 2000 at 06:59:00 (GMT)
__ __ Mr. Free -:- The good news? -:- Thurs, Dec 21, 2000 at 07:55:17 (GMT)
__ Youdiditagain -:- Don't Let Negativity become a cult -:- Wed, Dec 20, 2000 at 06:37:35 (GMT)
__ Sir Dave -:- Don't Let Negativity become a cult -:- Wed, Dec 20, 2000 at 02:10:34 (GMT)
__ The Great Thing Is -:- Everyone is different.... -:- Wed, Dec 20, 2000 at 01:00:42 (GMT)
__ Gregg -:- don't use that word cult lightly -:- Wed, Dec 20, 2000 at 00:45:34 (GMT)
__ __ Mr. Free -:- don't use that word cult lightly -:- Wed, Dec 20, 2000 at 00:54:41 (GMT)

jondon -:- Be sure and watch network morning shows -:- Tues, Dec 19, 2000 at 22:17:27 (GMT)
__ Bazza -:- and the Press -:- Wed, Dec 20, 2000 at 05:08:33 (GMT)
__ The great thing is -:- Everyone here is different. -:- Wed, Dec 20, 2000 at 00:59:29 (GMT)
__ Gregg -:- What? Please inform. (nt) -:- Wed, Dec 20, 2000 at 00:46:35 (GMT)
__ __ jondon -:- Bryant Gumbel, morning news show... -:- Wed, Dec 20, 2000 at 02:26:10 (GMT)
__ __ __ Susan -:- Bryant Gumbel, is which network? -:- Wed, Dec 20, 2000 at 15:37:12 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Cynthia -:- Bryant Gumbel is CBS...he used to be on NBC... -:- Thurs, Dec 21, 2000 at 00:35:50 (GMT)

Joe -:- More Questions for Michael Dettmers -:- Tues, Dec 19, 2000 at 17:34:49 (GMT)
__ Michael Dettmers -:- More Questions for Michael Dettmers -:- Wed, Dec 20, 2000 at 02:14:15 (GMT)
__ __ Turner -:- More Questions for Michael Dettmers -:- Thurs, Dec 21, 2000 at 02:17:50 (GMT)
__ __ __ Hal -:- Big investment made in Mr rawat eh ? -:- Thurs, Dec 21, 2000 at 19:38:32 (GMT)
__ __ __ Pauline Premie -:- I know people will think your post was from me.... -:- Thurs, Dec 21, 2000 at 19:10:59 (GMT)
__ __ __ Nigel -:- He'd look cute on a cross... -:- Thurs, Dec 21, 2000 at 13:25:55 (GMT)
__ __ __ AJW -:- All this Perfect Master stuff -:- Thurs, Dec 21, 2000 at 13:25:52 (GMT)
__ __ __ JTF -:- the point is, Turner... -:- Thurs, Dec 21, 2000 at 10:49:26 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Turner -:- the point is... -:- Thurs, Dec 21, 2000 at 20:29:04 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ JTF -:- the point is...sadly enough... -:- Fri, Dec 22, 2000 at 11:53:08 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Susan -:- lets all be glad Turner's heart is full -:- Thurs, Dec 21, 2000 at 22:19:20 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Turner -:- Turner's the only one glad Turner's heart is full -:- Thurs, Dec 21, 2000 at 23:01:08 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ janet of vence -:- full hearts make the world safer??????? -:- Fri, Dec 22, 2000 at 12:35:46 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Mickey the Pharisee -:- Define your terms. -:- Thurs, Dec 21, 2000 at 23:58:16 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Susan -:- why do I care so much -:- Thurs, Dec 21, 2000 at 23:51:26 (GMT)
__ __ __ Roger eDrek -:- And the real point being that Maharaji is Jesus? -:- Thurs, Dec 21, 2000 at 03:55:49 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ sucha -:- Rog,you forgot to bring the hairshirt and whips(nt -:- Thurs, Dec 21, 2000 at 21:57:03 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ AJW -:- LOL -:- Thurs, Dec 21, 2000 at 19:01:45 (GMT)
__ __ __ gErRy -:- Yeah Mike, you drunken, pot smokin' Judas... -:- Thurs, Dec 21, 2000 at 02:52:58 (GMT)
__ __ __ Cynthia -:- More Questions for Michael Dettmers..Maharaji???.. -:- Thurs, Dec 21, 2000 at 02:33:23 (GMT)
__ __ Joe -:- Thanks. And one clarification.... -:- Wed, Dec 20, 2000 at 04:38:06 (GMT)
__ __ __ Michael Dettmers -:- Thanks. And one clarification.... -:- Wed, Dec 20, 2000 at 12:08:02 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Joe -:- Very Interesting and Also. -:- Wed, Dec 20, 2000 at 19:11:52 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Joe -:- To Michael another historical question -:- Wed, Dec 20, 2000 at 19:20:10 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Thanks again for your -:- Honesty:)--nt -:- Thurs, Dec 21, 2000 at 03:26:30 (GMT)
__ wethead -:- None of your business -:- Wed, Dec 20, 2000 at 00:03:34 (GMT)
__ __ (Senator) Hillary Clinton -:- Touched a nerve have they? -:- Wed, Dec 20, 2000 at 00:09:31 (GMT)
__ __ __ wethead -:- Touched a nerve have they? -:- Wed, Dec 20, 2000 at 00:29:05 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ GAC -:- What's the difference between Marolyn and Jagdeo? -:- Wed, Dec 20, 2000 at 18:19:18 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Sir Dave -:- I agree -:- Wed, Dec 20, 2000 at 00:56:23 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Way -:- Marilyn Rawat -:- Thurs, Dec 21, 2000 at 15:55:53 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Salam -:- Do not agree -:- Wed, Dec 20, 2000 at 03:02:06 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ SB -:- She was MOM... -:- Wed, Dec 20, 2000 at 13:28:00 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Salam -:- Well there you go SB -:- Wed, Dec 20, 2000 at 13:55:54 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Sbe shure it's evidence -:- I still have those 70's cassettes abot DAD and MOM -:- Thurs, Dec 21, 2000 at 05:55:26 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Salam -:- WOW, what a girl -:- Thurs, Dec 21, 2000 at 12:40:45 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ gerry -:- Powerful post, SB -:- Fri, Dec 22, 2000 at 17:10:12 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ sb -:- hahahahaha -:- Sat, Dec 23, 2000 at 05:44:04 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Michael Dettmers -:- Do not agree -:- Wed, Dec 20, 2000 at 12:19:42 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Owl -:- Do not agree/*Qusetion* -:- Sat, Dec 23, 2000 at 02:43:36 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Salam -:- We made him that way -:- Wed, Dec 20, 2000 at 13:21:23 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ JohnT -:- Well said, Salam! -:- Wed, Dec 20, 2000 at 13:51:25 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Cynthia -:- Well said, Salam and JohnT! -:- Wed, Dec 20, 2000 at 16:41:46 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Joy -:- Cynthia, Could You e-mail me? (nt) OT -:- Wed, Dec 20, 2000 at 19:27:21 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Salam -:- I don't doubt for a sec. that it is a business -:- Wed, Dec 20, 2000 at 14:18:04 (GMT)
__ Can you tell the story -:- of Mira Bai in Miami?-nt -:- Tues, Dec 19, 2000 at 18:33:18 (GMT)
__ la-ex -:- More Questions for Michael Dettmers -:- Tues, Dec 19, 2000 at 18:13:24 (GMT)
__ __ Michael Dettmers -:- My response -:- Wed, Dec 20, 2000 at 15:10:09 (GMT)
__ __ Tim G -:- Questions For Experienced -:- Tues, Dec 19, 2000 at 19:46:50 (GMT)
__ __ __ Bin Liner -:- Read the whole site ......... -:- Tues, Dec 19, 2000 at 22:24:53 (GMT)
__ __ __ sucha -:- Answers: r.e. Questions For Experienced -:- Tues, Dec 19, 2000 at 21:56:32 (GMT)


Date: Thurs, Dec 21, 2000 at 06:04:24 (GMT)
From: Quatrain Queen
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: Prediction from Nostradamus (OT)
Message:

In 1555, Nostradamus wrote:

'Come the millennium , month 12
In the home of greatest power,
The village idiot will come forth
To be acclaimed the leader '

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Thurs, Dec 21, 2000 at 06:49:28 (GMT)
From: Can it be
Email: None
To: Quatrain Queen
Subject: Bush(nT)
Message:
nt
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Thurs, Dec 21, 2000 at 13:04:50 (GMT)
From: Salam
Email: None
To: Can it be
Subject: Bush
Message:
He must have been paid some big buck by on of Gores' ancestors to say that.
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Thurs, Dec 21, 2000 at 21:47:59 (GMT)
From: Helen
Email: None
To: Salam
Subject: HA!
Message:
Good one, Salam!
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Thurs, Dec 21, 2000 at 06:24:35 (GMT)
From: Buzz
Email: None
To: Quatrain Queen
Subject: Prediction from Nostradamus (OT)
Message:
I think the second wave is on its way:)
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Fri, Dec 22, 2000 at 09:44:10 (GMT)
From: janet of venice
Email: None
To: Buzz and queen
Subject: Prediction from Nostradamus (OT)
Message:
this verse is a fake, but there are two others that might refer to this state of affairs. check the urban legends sites for the full understanding. the real verses mention something about 'at millenium's end,after the year of floods.'
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Thurs, Dec 21, 2000 at 02:39:52 (GMT)
From: Patrick
Email: None
To: 'Here for the 1st time'
Subject: Hey! where's that parody of MD's contract gone?
Message:
I guess it got deleted - which is a shame since the poster 'Here for the 1st time' deserved a sensible response!

At first glance his attempt to detract from Michael Dettmers ‘ deposition, seemed to have maybe involved some intelligent thought – even if merely by virtue of 'Here for the 1st time' presenting his or her case through the device of a ' spoof contract’.

On closer inspection however I was disappointed to discover that it was example of abject feeble-mindedness!

Here’s some extracts from the spoof on Dettmers’ confidentiality agreement.

I will keep in the strictest confidence any of my contemporaneous feelings, perceptions or understandings in regards to Maharaji, instead relying solely on distant hindsight*.

How can you fail to notice that Michael has been most open about his contemporaneous feelings, perceptions or understandings in regards to Maharaji? Furthermore his understandings are clearly influenced not solely by hindsight, but also by what considerable evidence there is today on display regarding the current Maharaji.

I will keep in the strictest confidence any observations I may have had, regardless of how numerous, of Maharaji's skills, mastery and unique abilities.

Again Dettmers is hardly shy in his observations about these things. If you object to his conclusions about Maharaji’s mastery, skills and abilities then why don’t you offer some more substantial argument imn Maharaji’s favour?

I will keep in the strictest confidence any notions I may have had about trustworthiness, discretion or friendship.

Again Dettmers does not deny his times of friendship and discretion with Maharaji. He has spoken about his former love and friendship with Maharaji. Of course he, along with others who feel deceived, is saying that Maharaji is untrustworthy. So he is being open about his notions of trustworthiness.

I will keep in the strictest confidence any larger picture or perspective that might engender any insight into the actions or words of Maharaji.

The ‘smaller picture’ could be said to be the world of restricted information that has been the premie world. Dettmers again is clearly promoting the larger picture by providing hitherto concealed facts that will help engender a more infomed insight into the actions or words of Maharaji.

I will keep in the strictest confidence all words and activities of Maharaji that were of benefit to me or anyone I might have known.

Listen, can’t you see that Dettmers is not trying to create an advertisement for Maharaji!? He is simply saying that from his experience and in his opinion the bad effects of Maharaji’s words and activities outweigh the benefits.

I will keep in the strictest confidence any and all efforts on Maharaji's part to disseminate the experience hereunder referred to as 'Knowledge,' instead only referring to 2 isolated programs he canceled out of thousands.

Dettmers is not impressed that Maharaji’s efforts to disseminate Knowledge are entirely wholesome. I get the impression that he thinks that Maharaji generally wastes resources and basically could do a better job if he wasn’t so preoccupied with self-aggrandisement etc.
Maharaji and premies are doing a grand job of proclaiming Maharaji’s tireless efforts and schedule- but Michael sees room for improvement!

I will keep in the strictest confidence any signs of delight, wisdom or joy in people I saw worldwide as a direct result of Maharaji's (and to some degree, my own) efforts and, instead, focus exclusively on the doubts and suffering of those, however small the percentage, who haven't felt those things in his presence, or have, and then forgotten them or ascribed them to other factors.

The feelings of that percentage count - whatever proportion of all people who received Knowledge they represent. Again Michael and others here think that the experiences of delight, wisdom and joy are often also accompanied by some more sinister cultic aspects – the proof being that premies dependence and trust in Maharaji has left them more open to the kinds of abuse we see described. (Visa vi Jagdeo abusing kids in his trust – teacher having sex with students etc. and not to forget those reports that the ashram experience was for many - far from delightful, full of wisdom or joy – but a generally depriving and humiliating time)

I will keep in the strictest confidence the fact that Maharaji never made the slightest pretense that he was living the 'ashram' lifestyle nor told anyone else that he was.

Dettmers is not sugesting anywhere that Maharaji said that.

No, Maharaji was the ‘Lotus’ - above it all. Or not so ‘above it all’ as Dettmers would have us believe!

What he is suggesting is that it was rather hypocritical to get others to give up things that he had no intention of abandoning - and was indeed pursuing with great vigour in ‘secret’ (for there is no other word since he evidently made very considerable efforts to conceal his private pursuits from premies at large)

I will keep in the strictest confidence the fact that I had 'countless personal experiences' of witnessing that Maharaji not only understood exactly what he was teaching, but embodied it.

You are surely not in a position to say if or what personal experiences Michael is omitting from his reports.
Worse, you are now making the untenable mistake of putting your own words into Michael Dettmers mouth. Dettmers is saying something quite different.

I will keep in the strictest confidence ALL acts of kindness and generosity I may have witnessed by Maharaji.

Here’s a quote from Michael:

'The thing is that he was often very kind to me. He accorded me in general, a great deal of respect, a great deal of autonomy. He certainly gave me gifts and I engaged with me in a more personal way than a lot of people, I mean… I went out to dinner with him lots of times - we would sit around just together, share a meal, drink some wine —I’d been in his office quite often - I talked about the smoking. A lot of that was done in a kind of general friendly kind of way, shall we say? So I didn’t personally find him intimidating but I’m talking about a lot of people around the residence. '

Lastly, and most importantly, I will keep in the strictest confidence anything that I, personally, understood and felt during my time with Maharaji, especially those things that would cast a favorable light upon him and explain what I was doing there in the first place.

I think Dettmers has spoken very clearly about what brought him to Maharaji in the first place. Why should he ‘cast Maharaji in a favourable light’ when he is clearly trying to draw attention to the faults he sees. Are you suggesting that it is wrong to criticise Maharaji? If so why?


*hindsight-the viewing of events, people and conversations through one's posterior.

If all that you have said here is supposed to constitute a sensible criticism of Dettmer’s motivations then you have failed in my opinion. Rather you show that, given the opportunity to write something truly thought provoking you cannot, so you must disguise your inability to come up with anything substantial within this bizarre, end-of-the-pier, pointless parody of Michael’s legal contract !

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Date: Thurs, Dec 21, 2000 at 21:14:49 (GMT)
From: Danny (clear enough?)
Email: None
To: all
Subject: The Michael Dettmers Confidentiality Agreement
Message:
Here, for the first time, through the tireless efforts of a highly-placed network of gossips and spies, we proudly present the world's most stringent, legally binding document.

From the firm of Jacobs, Abraham and Issac, a law partnership.

I, Michael Dettmers, do solemnly swear to uphold the following:

I will keep in the strictest confidence any of my contemporaneous feelings, perceptions or understandings in regards to Maharaji, instead relying solely on distant hindsight*.

I will keep in the strictest confidence any observations I may have had, regardless of how numerous, of Maharaji's skills, mastery and unique abilities.

I will keep in the strictest confidence any notions I may have had about trustworthiness, discretion or friendship.

I will keep in the strictest confidence any larger picture or perspective that might engender any insight into the actions or words of Maharaji.

I will keep in the strictest confidence all words and activities of Maharaji that were of benefit to me or anyone I might have known.

I will keep in the strictest confidence any and all efforts on Maharaji's part to disseminate the experience hereunder referred to as 'Knowledge,' instead only referring to 2 programs he canceled out of thousands.

I will keep in the strictest confidence any signs of delight, wisdom or joy in people I saw worldwide as a direct result of Maharaji's (and to some degree, my own) efforts and, instead, focus exclusively on the doubts and suffering of those, however small the percentage, who haven't felt those things in his presence, or have, and then forgotten them or ascribed them to other factors.

I will keep in the strictest confidence the fact that Maharaji never made the slightest pretense that he was living the 'ashram' lifestyle nor told anyone else that he was.

I will keep in the strictest confidence the fact that I had 'countless personal experiences' of witnessing that Maharaji not only understood exactly what he was teaching, but embodied it.

I will keep in the strictest confidence ALL acts of kindness and generosity I may have witnessed by Maharaji.

I will never say a word about that stuff with the dwarf.

Lastly, and most importantly, I will keep in the strictest confidence anything that I, personally, understood and felt during my time with Maharaji, especially those things that would cast a favorable light upon him and explain what I was doing there in the first place.

*hindsight-the viewing of events, people and conversations through one's posterior.

I do so affirm. M. Dettmers R. Jacobs, esq.

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Date: Thurs, Dec 21, 2000 at 13:02:56 (GMT)
From: FA
Email: None
To: Patrick
Subject: The disappearing post.
Message:
Hi Patrick and other lovers of freedom,

I'm on duty as FA at the moment. When I read the 'parody' of Michaels contract, it seemed nothing more to me than a nasty attack on someone with courage and credibility, from an anonymous premie. I didn't see any wit or humour in it, and...as is my right when I'm duty FA, I kicked it off.

Maybe I missed something- but that's how I saw it.

I kick off any anonymous premie post that do nothing but attack any of our forum regulars. The premies can always go and spout their malicious attacks on Sir Dave's forum, where there are no cops.

I'm offline for the holidays, so I won't be able to respond after this, and I'm sure when I get back, it will all be forgotten about. Have a good one everybody.

FA

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Date: Thurs, Dec 21, 2000 at 14:31:05 (GMT)
From: cq
Email: None
To: FA
Subject: Censored 'cos you don't agree with the poster?
Message:
I say, FA, that's taking things a bit far, isn't it?
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Date: Thurs, Dec 21, 2000 at 20:52:06 (GMT)
From: Oliver
Email: None
To: cq
Subject: Second e-m attempt bounced,.... (OT)
Message:
Crux of the matter was a request for a further episode or 3, an update on progress with my CTO research and the extensive quality response I have received.

Last but not least was a request for feed back on problem being experienced with a close premie friend.

Might send a homing pigeon back with Nigel and you can wrap a note around it's foot and set it free.

Anyway, it will all work out in the wash.

Hooroo, Oliver.

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Date: Fri, Dec 22, 2000 at 14:27:32 (GMT)
From: cq
Email: quartus@postmaster.co.uk
To: Oliver
Subject: problem found - and solved (OT)
Message:
- had exceeded my 5meg limit with the server, so I've deleted a load of files and should have plenty of room for new messages now.

Would like to respond - do post again.

Cheers,

Chris

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Date: Thurs, Dec 21, 2000 at 17:17:57 (GMT)
From: JohnT
Email: None
To: cq
Subject: Hear! Hear!
Message:
The 'Parody' was (imho) better written and funnier than the 'pimp' attacks on MD. And surely more relevant.

I don't understand why the deletion occured.

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Date: Thurs, Dec 21, 2000 at 14:34:21 (GMT)
From: Sir Dave
Email: None
To: cq
Subject: It's just not cricket, is it (nt)
Message:
x
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Date: Thurs, Dec 21, 2000 at 18:48:37 (GMT)
From: FA
Email: None
To: Sir Dave and the rest
Subject: The Power is Mine
Message:
Watch out you wingeing bleeding heart liberals, or I'll kick you all off..HA HA HA THE POWER IS MINE.

FA

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Date: Fri, Dec 22, 2000 at 14:38:44 (GMT)
From: cq
Email: None
To: FA
Subject: Thank you Mr Goebels. But seriously ...
Message:
yes, seriously.

I'm well aware that this Forum can be abused, but I never imagined it would be abused by its very own Forum Assistants.

Danny posts intelligently, and I think we should have the right to respond intelligently to him, whether you like it or not.

Do you think exes aren't strong enough to defend their own point of view? Hey, enough of the bleeding-heart wet-nursing, already.

Play fair, Mr FA!

And put 'em up (the posts you deleted, that is).

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Date: Thurs, Dec 21, 2000 at 09:07:41 (GMT)
From: Danny
Email: None
To: Patrick
Subject: Hey! where's that parody of MD's contract gone?
Message:
Good question.

Unless the FA decided that since I didn't sign it Danny (this one IS from Danny, by the way) that they'd delete it, even though exes do that all the time. It wouldn't have served the interests of satire or the point of the piece to sign it. Perhaps the humor here can only flow in one direction. A shame.

One point you should know, Patrick, even though you followed a predictable, knee-jerk route by declaring the contract an 'example of abject feeble-mindedness' though it 'seemed to have maybe involved some intelligent thought'...

You quoted and commented thusly - I will keep in the strictest confidence the fact that I had 'countless personal experiences' of witnessing that Maharaji not only understood exactly what he was teaching, but embodied it.

You wrote, 'You are surely not in a position to say if or what personal experiences Michael is omitting from his reports. Worse, you are now making the untenable mistake of putting your own words into Michael Dettmers mouth. Dettmers is saying something quite different.'

Patrick, those ARE Michael Dettmers' words, verbatim. From this year. As for the disappearance of the contract, I hope it's not censorship...or cowardice. That would make a lot of what I've read here about pride in free speech seem awfully hypocritical. The point is genuine and should be at least looked at...or enjoyed as a well-deserved spoof on the least restrictive confidentiality agreement in the history of mankind.

Danny

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Date: Thurs, Dec 21, 2000 at 19:40:01 (GMT)
From: Joe
Email: None
To: Danny
Subject: Face it, Danny
Message:
Being the 'inside the beltway' premie that you are, you long, long ago, were well aware of Maharaji's sexual transgressions against his own devotees, as well as his chemical excesses, not to mention his obscenely extravagant lifestyle, provided as 'donations' by his followers. You have long ago reconciled all that. What Michael Dettmers has said isn't news to you at all. You long ago made the necessary compromises and rationalizations to deal with that information, as well as a lot more.

The only problem you have with Mr. Dettmers is that he is stating these things, which Maharaji has relentlessly tried to keep secret from his followers and the rest of the world, for everyone to see. Hence, instead of defending your master on the merits, or in any way addressing the moral depravity of your cult-leader, you attempt to discredit the messenger. It's pretty pathetic and transparent.

Have you really sunk that far, Danny? If you have kids, do you talk about this to them?

Since you appear to be a fan of free speech, I'm sure you are campaigning to open up the Maharaji-cult websites to open discussion about your lord and master, which do not even allow anything but gushing praise of Maharaji to be posted, let alone any free form of discussion. I'd love to hear the results of your campaign, but I think it's futile, as Maharaji has never been able to withstand open discussion, hence the cult does not allow it.

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Date: Fri, Dec 22, 2000 at 17:59:57 (GMT)
From: Monmot
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: Danny's Suffering From Severe Rawautism nt
Message:
mm
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Date: Thurs, Dec 21, 2000 at 21:58:52 (GMT)
From: Susan
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: great post Joe (nt)
Message:
nt
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Date: Thurs, Dec 21, 2000 at 22:13:03 (GMT)
From: such
Email: None
To: Susan
Subject: great posts Way and Joe; READ, die-hard dupes (nt)
Message:
nt
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Date: Thurs, Dec 21, 2000 at 19:08:31 (GMT)
From: Way
Email: None
To: Danny
Subject: To Danny for the upteenth time
Message:
Danny,

Not only did you not honestly sign your post as Danny, but you seemed to have signed it as 'here for the first time' - an outright lie. You don't seem to mind dishonesty, in yourself or your Master.

You have now learned, with the rest of us, how Mr. Rawat uses premie women for his own sexual experiences, and then discards them at will, without notice. And your reaction is to make a witty satire which is designed to describe Mr. Dettmers as some sort of villain and Mr. Rawat as some sort of Master. (Your parody is still posted below by 'The Cache.)'

You make no mention whatsoever of your reaction to learning about Mr. Rawat's sexual activities. I, myself, was sickened and saddened, and I cannot even imagine anyone having a different sort of reaction.

But, since your only response is to try to discredit Mr. Dettmers, then I think we can assume that your positive view of Mr. Rawat has in fact survived the latest round of devastating information. We are talking about common human decency here, and Mr. Rawat has failed miserably, so I imagine that you must be placing Maharaji above common human decency and allowing him some sort of license to act contrary to it. Such a stance is almost impossible to comprehend, but it is not un-heard-of. Just recently, we have seen Sai Baba being exposed as having sexual relations with underage males, and yet there are many devotees of that guru who maintain that the genital oilings and the oral sex was of some sort of divine benefit for the boys!

Your defense of Mr. Rawat at this point is pathetic. To imply that Mr. Rawat embodies the highest human knowledge is particularly offensive and ironic.

You complain that the deletion of your post is hypocritical here. But it is the stated and restated policy of this Forum that people stick to one name or be subject to deletion and even banning. Nothing hypocritical in the least about it. Just follow the simple rules, guy.

You also complain what a shame it is that the humor here can only flow in one direction. Be funny, and you might have better prospects here. But when your reaction to some of the most stinking, ugly, and disgusting news possible is to submit a post that uses wit to divert from the real issue, then don't expect many of us to chuckle.

Your point that Michael's history of posts has been self-contradictory in some ways is valid, but minor. Get off it.

You know, you really present an ironic picture, Danny. We were called upon to be lovers of truth and to reject our concepts. But where is your alliance, premie ji, with truth or with your cherished concepts? We were called upon to 'know thyself,' and to listen to the heart. But what are you listenting to, premie ji, your heart? Really?

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Date: Thurs, Dec 21, 2000 at 20:08:51 (GMT)
From: Danny
Email: None
To: Way
Subject: To Danny for the upteenth time
Message:
Hi Way,

Lighten up.

'Here for the first time!' was simply the intro to 'The Michael Dettmers Confidentiality Agreement.' Not an attempt to hide my identity.

Get it?

Danny

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Date: Thurs, Dec 21, 2000 at 21:30:48 (GMT)
From: Way
Email: None
To: Danny
Subject: Ok, Danny,
Message:
Now I understand the reference to 'here for the first time.' I therefore take back my remark about you lying outright. But I maintain that you should follow our rules about posting under one name if you want to participate on this Forum.

As far as your suggestion that I might 'lighten up,' don't hold your precious breath. Not with this subject matter, anyhow.

I can't help but wonder where you are now on the 'premie's journey'. When the devotee is presented with a consistent picture within and without, the feeling is blissful, and the going is easy. But when the inner voice says one thing, and that thing is contradicted by the guru's actions or words, then the road divides, the feeling faulters, and a choice presents itself, a choice that must be made. Perhaps you are not at this crossroad, perhaps there is no such inconsistency for you still. Perhaps you view Rawat's sexual escapades as more Lila or simply as 'playing with the creation.' Perhaps you feel that the beautiful women who were used and dumped were lucky to have had the experience. In that case, no choice is necessary and you may continue on as before.

But I submit, for your consideration, that your own inner voice has far far more to say to you than you will ever hear from a guru. And perhaps you have chosen against your own inner voice at certain times in the past, and therefore its strength has now decreased, in favor of the guru's. Perhaps.

p.s. I do admit that the vehicle of your arguments has been imaginative and amusing, but only the vehicle, not the contents. And I must say your fortitude, if it were not displaced, would be impressive.

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Date: Thurs, Dec 21, 2000 at 22:09:04 (GMT)
From: Way
Email: None
To: Way
Subject: Danny, please add 'hit and run' to...
Message:
...the Lila list. Does hit and run, allowing a servant to take the heat, and paying off the family all fit in with your concepts? What's it gonna take? If you keep choosing against your own inner voice, it's gonna be completely silent soon.
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Date: Thurs, Dec 21, 2000 at 19:24:21 (GMT)
From: Joe
Email: None
To: Way
Subject: Great Post, Way .... everyone, please read (nt)
Message:
nt
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Date: Thurs, Dec 21, 2000 at 13:07:53 (GMT)
From: AJW
Email: None
To: Danny
Subject: Why don't you...
Message:
Hi Danny,

Why don't you apply the same critical scrutiny to your Masters' actions that you seem to be giving to Michael?

And, another question for five bonus points Danny- would you sing Arti to Maharaji- given the opportunity?

Anth- whose glory doesn't fill the world. (Save us from the goats and sheep Jai dev...)

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Date: Thurs, Dec 21, 2000 at 20:56:08 (GMT)
From: Danny
Email: None
To: AJW
Subject: This is why
Message:
Hi Anth,

You asked, 'Why don't you apply the same critical scrutiny to your Masters' actions that you seem to be giving to Michael?'

Because I've never heard Maharaji trash Michael in public or betray HIS (MD's) private conversations and confidences. Have you?

After the man says, 'Maharaji always treated me with great respect, dignity and love, not just while I worked with him, but also at the time of my departure.' and '“When I was involved with Maharaji, I came to know him as a friend for whom I had great love. And love can be expressed in many ways. And it is out of respect for that love and appreciation for knowledge that I refuse to criticize Maharaji.” and then goes ahead and spews forth the selected tidbits he has....I'd say that's ripe for some scrutiny. It’s an interesting definition of friendship, to say the least.

For 5 bonus points - Yes, but only in Aramaic or Tagalog.

Danny

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Date: Fri, Dec 22, 2000 at 11:58:36 (GMT)
From: Larkin
Email: None
To: Danny
Subject: If the cap fits...
Message:
Apologists use five surefire evasions
(You too will use the full set, by and by)
Five sleazy tactics fit for all occasions
When simple logic leaves them high and dry

One: deny the facts of what you’re hearing
Accuse your foes of slander and of lies
And lest the truth diverts the course you’re steering
Plug ears, tongue up, watch breath and squeeze your eyes.

Two: admit the facts (with some false sadness)
But write them off against some nobler end
That justifies the mindwarps and the madness
Which breaks some fellow-traveller now and again.

Three: ignore the facts and turn your firepower
Upon the messengers who brings the news
Who dared to blow a raspberry at your higher power
Especially when you can’t refute their views.

Four: move on , restart the conversation
Change the subject when it gets too tough
‘Till folk get tired of your prevarication
And finally give you space to spout your stuff.

Five: shout ‘foul!’ then tell them ‘I’m not playing...
Just because you’re clean-bowled, centre stump.
Truth is, we hear exactly what you’re saying
And sorry, pal, you’re giving me the hump.

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Date: Thurs, Dec 21, 2000 at 12:54:39 (GMT)
From: Nigel
Email: None
To: Danny
Subject: Hey! where's that parody of MD's contract gone?
Message:
'Danny',

You try hard for a premie - sometimes a little overblown and pompous, perhaps - but reasonably articulate for a man with no sense of humour when it comes thinking about Mr Golden Balls in terms less than perfect.

But have to tell you, if you want to use portentous prose on behalf of the Lordy one, that there is no such word as 'thusly'.

Sorry, that's just how it is. Would Maharaji ever use a word like 'thusly'? Of course not. Shame on you.

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Date: Thurs, Dec 21, 2000 at 11:43:11 (GMT)
From: Sir Dave
Email: sirdavid12@hotmail.com
To: Danny
Subject: It's an outrage!
Message:
Your parody should never have been deleted. What is the world coming to?

But Danny, you've got an uphill task here, trying to reverse the damage that's been done to Maharaji. It's interesting to see how you polish over the obvious glaring cracks. It's a work of art actually, your writing.

I await with great interest your next posts, to see how you've soft soaped the awful truth. I think you should be in politics or public relations. Your talents could go beyond this neck of the woods.

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Date: Thurs, Dec 21, 2000 at 11:18:27 (GMT)
From: Patrick
Email: None
To: Danny
Subject: Hey! where's that parody of MD's contract gone?
Message:
One point you should know, Patrick, even though you followed a predictable, knee-jerk route by declaring the contract an 'example of abject feeble-mindedness' though it 'seemed to have maybe involved some intelligent thought'...

No, no - I added that judgement after reading your post very carefully! Don't take offense...I don't think that you are necessarily feeble-minded -just on this occasion - you must have been over-tired or something!

I will keep in the strictest confidence the fact that I had 'countless personal experiences' of witnessing that Maharaji not only understood exactly what he was teaching, but embodied it.

Patrick, those ARE Michael Dettmers' words, verbatim. From this year.

So Dettmers said he had 'countless personal experiences' Ok but did he also say the next bit - that bit not within quotation marks ? You know the important bit...of witnessing that Maharaji not only understood exactly what he was teaching, but embodied it.

Well, did he? That sounds to me very much like you are trying to put words into his mouth.

If your post was deleted it was clearly an odd decision because they are usually far more offensive and off topic posts than yours that maybe should be preferably removed. I take it that there has been some acknowledgement of this by someone since you're post has been reinstated below -minus original text formatting. It would be easy for you now to repost it as you intended I should have thought.

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Date: Thurs, Dec 21, 2000 at 21:09:38 (GMT)
From: Danny
Email: None
To: Patrick
Subject: Hey! where's that parody of MD's contract gone?
Message:
Hi Patrick,

Here's the exact quote from Michael Dettmers from this Spring, when he first started bathing in the clear, nourishing waters of Forum 5.

'In time, I discovered how masterful he is in the domain he calls knowledge. By masterful I mean that he embodies the experience. And I have countless personal experiences in which I have witnessed that mastery in action.'

Close enough for you?

Enjoy your holidays (no irony here!),
Danny

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Date: Fri, Dec 22, 2000 at 17:38:51 (GMT)
From: gerry
Email: None
To: Danny
Subject: that's what I don't understand either, Danny
Message:
'In time, I discovered how masterful he is in the domain he calls knowledge. By masterful I mean that he embodies the experience. And I have countless personal experiences in which I have witnessed that mastery in action.'

Dettmers did indeed post those words. This REALLY put me off him. It's the source of my main objection to MD and the reason I called him a con man. I just can't reconcile these two opposing views dettmers has presented. I knew his words would be used by someone like you and come back to bite us all in the ass.

The only thing I can figure out is that he still has a lot of residual programming lying around unresolved in his mind. He has since become a lot clearer and realistic about the whole thing. And he must have gone through some huge experiences of disassociation to reconcile the fact that he ws literally pimping for this disgusting little man.

It's a complicated process extricating one's self from a cult and its mind controlling influences. I'll have to chalk it up to that, otherwise it just doesn't make sense to me or hang together in any sort of consistency.

Of course, if you read Cialdini's book Jim recommended, you will discover that consistency is highly over-rated.

Merry Mithrasmas to you, dude. I hope you get over it someday.

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Date: Fri, Dec 22, 2000 at 20:56:41 (GMT)
From: gerry
Email: None
To: gerry
Subject: A possible answer for myself and Danny
Message:
I found this on Dave's most excellent page and may explain some of the confusion.)

Michael Dettmers:

I am now convinced that Maharaji will never, of his own accord, budge from his belief that he is the perfect master, the living lord in the flesh, worthy of love and devotion, and the key to salvation for those who are willing to surrender their lives to him. As I have said before, he embodies this belief so thoroughly that it is not really a belief for him but the absolute truth. And he has cultivated defense mechanisms that kick-in and attack whenever it is challenged. So, no matter what he may say now about knowledge, in the end, devotion to him is all that he wants, and is all that he has to offer.

But there is a chink in his armor. Fear and arrogance have shaped and warped his character and have destroyed whatever love and innocence I experienced in him when we first met. And that arrogance has created a pall of cynicism that is contagious. Before I finally left, I was filled with it. To me, he had become a greedy, self-absorbed person. His consumption of ever more expensive worldly possessions is an abomination of the love and devotion that made it all possible. I cannot adequately express my disgust with Élan Vital’s assertion that Maharaji “in his private life, as a means of maintaining his independence, has business interests which have been very successful.“ This statement takes cynicism to new heights. He knows damn well that his fortune is based on the love, devotion and sweat of sincere and trusting premies who believed in him. To dismiss that is unconscionable and, I am convinced, will be his undoing.

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Date: Thurs, Dec 21, 2000 at 02:54:41 (GMT)
From: gerry
Email: None
To: Patrick
Subject: phew patrick, that's an eyeful...
Message:
good post, though. Here's what I don't get: these apologist guys all scream 'betrayal of friendship,' but I say bullwhappy.

They weren't 'friends' at all. Dettmers served his friend rawrat for years, thirteen, I believe, seeing his friend almost every day. After mike left, he NEVER HEARD A WORD FROM HIS 'FRIEND.'

Some fucking friend, huh?

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Date: Thurs, Dec 21, 2000 at 02:53:25 (GMT)
From: The Cache
Email: None
To: Patrick
Subject: One Slightly Mangled Parody
Message:
Now, through the tireless efforts of a highly-placed network of gossips and spies, we proudly present the world's most stringent, legally binding document.
From the firm of Jacobs, Abraham and Issac, a Law partnership.
I, Michael Dettmers, do solemnly swear to uphold the following:
I will keep in the strictest confidence any of my contemporaneous feelings, perceptions or understandings in regards to Maharaji, instead relying solely on distant hindsight*.
I will keep in the strictest confidence any observations I may have had, regardless of how numerous, of Maharaji's skills, mastery and unique abilities.
I will keep in the strictest confidence any notions I may have had about trustworthiness, discretion or friendship.
I will keep in the strictest confidence any larger picture or perspective that might engender any insight into the actions or words of Maharaji.
I will keep in the strictest confidence all words and activities of Maharaji that were of benefit to me or anyone I might have known.
I will keep in the strictest confidence any and all efforts on Maharaji's part to disseminate the experience hereunder referred to as 'Knowledge,' instead only referring to 2 isolated programs he canceled out of thousands.
I will keep in the strictest confidence any signs of delight, wisdom or joy in people I saw worldwide as a direct result of Maharaji's (and to some degree, my own) efforts and, instead, focus exclusively on the doubts and suffering of those, however small the percentage, who haven't felt those things in his presence, or have, and then forgotten them or ascribed them to other factors.
I will keep in the strictest confidence the fact that Maharaji never made the slightest pretense that he was living the 'ashram' lifestyle nor told anyone else that he was.
I will keep in the strictest confidence the fact that I had 'countless personal experiences' of witnessing that Maharaji not only understood exactly what he was teaching, but embodied it.
I will keep in the strictest confidence ALL acts of kindness and generosity I may have witnessed by Maharaji.
Lastly, and most importantly, I will keep in the strictest confidence anything that I, personally, understood and felt during my time with Maharaji, especially those things that would cast a favorable light upon him and explain what I was doing there in the first place.
*hindsight-the viewing of events, people and conversations through one's posterior.
I do so affirm. M. Dettmers R. Jacobs, esq.
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Date: Thurs, Dec 21, 2000 at 13:57:04 (GMT)
From: JohnT
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: Censored reply to censored parady
Message:
The FA kindly protected readers not only from the parody, but also deleted the replies. FOOEY! Here's my counter, rewritten.

I will keep in the strictest confidence any and all efforts on Maharaji's part to disseminate the experience hereunder referred to as 'Knowledge,'

This is where the Anonymous Coward goes into self-parody! The EPO website is more effective at promulgating the four techniques to interested people than is Rawat! Rawat is NOT interested in spreading 'Knowledge' - his interest is in controlling it for his own gain.

It's no good trying to blame MD or EPO for the failure of Rawat and his mission. He never was Lord; his mission was ever a fraud; and his motivation was just to obtain devotees and devotion. If Rawat was interested in spreading 'this precious gift' then he could do so. How come his critics are better than Rawat is at letting people try THAT experience?

Come on, Anonymous Coward! Why is Rawat so ineffective at his central (ostensible) purpose? I think we should be told!

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Date: Thurs, Dec 21, 2000 at 19:03:57 (GMT)
From: FA
Email: None
To: JohnT
Subject: Censored reply to censored parady
Message:
Unfortunately John, when we remove a post, all the post directly underneath it get removed too. This is the way the software works, and also the price of fraternising with the enema.

FA

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Date: Fri, Dec 22, 2000 at 09:59:11 (GMT)
From: JohnT
Email: None
To: FA
Subject: Whassup?
Message:
Sure, I know that. But did you think the home team couldn't cope? Like we need to be protected from such efforts? I can understand the feeling of needing to Do Something about the way the forum gets used sometimes -- but I would respectfully ask you to consider whether you may have been a tad over-responsible in this particular case.

Surely part of the process is that Danny (who he, anyway?) and his ilk put up specious arguments so that we can tear them apart. I mean, like it or not, people will say the sort of stuff that Danny put in his Parody. If we don't deal with it, who will?

I am grateful for this site and the opportunity to desynchronise the cult's apologists. And I know it couldn't happen without the voluntary efforts of folk like you who take on the largely thankless task of Forum Administration. So a big thankyou to all past and present FAs.

Happy Solstice to One and All.

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Date: Thurs, Dec 21, 2000 at 13:17:01 (GMT)
From: AJW
Email: None
To: The Cache
Subject: Ha fucking Ha...
Message:
and what's your contract with the Lard Danny-

I will believe that when I poke myself in the eye I see God.
I will believe that you are the Creator of the Universe walking around smelling of cognac.
I will hand over every penny I have to support you in the style to which you are accustomed.
I will believe that you are beyond right and wrong.
I will believe that you every action is a lesson to me to try harder- because I still haven't quite made it yet.
I will consider no humiliation or degrading, morally-bankrupt action to great or too small to perform for my master.
I will believe that all the other gurus and followers, although they look and sound exactly like me, are in cults, but I am not.
I will end up looking like a right prat.

But, as Abbie Hoffman said, 'If Maharaji is the Lord, then maybe America got the God it deserved.' Now that was witty Danny.

Anth the half-wit

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Date: Thurs, Dec 21, 2000 at 14:08:31 (GMT)
From: Salam
Email: None
To: AJW
Subject: Ha fucking Ha...
Message:
Anth,

Am a bit lost as to what this thread is all about, can you enlighten me as I must have missed something. You guys seem to be kicking some ass and I feel left out.

Salam looking at the mirror to check he is who he is.

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Date: Thurs, Dec 21, 2000 at 18:50:52 (GMT)
From: AJW
Email: None
To: Salam
Subject: Ha fucking Ha...
Message:
Hi Salam,

The FA kicked off a post having a go at Mike Detmers- it is reproduced above by 'The Cache'.

Anth with his ear to the ground- listening to lots of dogshit.

Have a good holiday Salam. Talk after Christmas.

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Date: Thurs, Dec 21, 2000 at 23:26:52 (GMT)
From: Salam
Email: None
To: AJW
Subject: Come back here
Message:
Am a bit thick today, so what is Patrick talking about?

Salam the brick.

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Date: Sat, Dec 23, 2000 at 15:37:53 (GMT)
From: Nigel
Email: None
To: Salam
Subject: Come back here
Message:
An anonymous premie (who turned out to be 'Danny' - er, an anonymous premie) posted a 'joke' contract attacking Michael Dettmers' integrity. The FA removed it, but it has now reappeared, signed by 'The Cache'. Patrick noticed the thread had disappeared so started a new thread to complain. Anth posted a joke reply to 'The Cache' outlining the unspoken contract carried in every premie's heart...

That's all.

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Date: Thurs, Dec 21, 2000 at 02:22:41 (GMT)
From: Mr. Free
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: What was the scandal with swami Amar Jyoti
Message:
Last Monday at Satsang conversing with one of the premies he told me he lived in sacred mountain ashram near Boulder,Co. for 20 years. He said jyoti had to go to India for a few years, I kept pressing him about why and what did he do, but he didn't want to talk about it. Denial or whitewashing probably. Is this another cult trip down the tubes? Like to know more.
What happened to the Rajneesh cult? What brought them down?
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Date: Fri, Dec 22, 2000 at 04:34:49 (GMT)
From: Helen
Email: None
To: Mr. Free
Subject: Swami Amar Jyoti was my first guru
Message:
Imagine my shock to see Swami Jyoti's name on this site, an obscure guru such as he! He was my guru before M was. He had an ashram in Rockford, MI outside of Grand Rapids. He was a 'real guru'--hard work and all and compared to him, Maharaji was the 'fun guru'. Swami Jyoti slammed me in a public satsang one time and it took me months to recover. Now I see he is just another bozo on the bus, a worst bozo than the rest of us in fact. I heard that he had a sexual relationship with one of his devotees. I knew he had an ashram in Boulder, and I have a dear friend who gave it all up to follow him. I am sure that freind must have been devastated to find out that his guru was a sham.

It's bound to happen that they fall from grace in a big way.

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Date: Thurs, Dec 21, 2000 at 18:17:26 (GMT)
From: Gregg
Email: None
To: Mr. Free
Subject: swami Amar Jyoti
Message:
Internet searches will reveal the deal with this particular swami. Guess what? He abused his faithful flock, sexually and otherwise! Surprised? No, I didn't think so. Same old story.

The Rajneesh deal is a lot more complicated. There are a couple of good books out there which describe what went down.

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Date: Thurs, Dec 21, 2000 at 03:29:26 (GMT)
From: bill
Email: None
To: Mr. Free
Subject: Same answer in all those cases
Message:
You cant play god and not go nuts.
You cant attain any state 'beyond' and stay.
You are stuck in human nature and murphys law makes sure you get your fair share of problems. Self proclaimed godheads included.
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Date: Thurs, Dec 21, 2000 at 02:35:17 (GMT)
From: Cynthia
Email: None
To: Mr. Free
Subject: Knock it off. Stop wasting our space with your
Message:
dribbling stupid idiotic boring vomit.

Go away, please....thank you, Mr. Free

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Date: Thurs, Dec 21, 2000 at 05:34:36 (GMT)
From: Mr. Free
Email: None
To: Cynthia
Subject: May Satan enter into your soul
Message:
Well actually ther's plenty of space here, but since you feel the need to respond... Actually may all your bad karma ripen for you
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Date: Thurs, Dec 21, 2000 at 11:52:50 (GMT)
From: Sir Dave
Email: None
To: Mr. Free
Subject: That's not very nice, Mr Free
Message:
Can't you be a little more forgiving? But I agree that Cynthia wasn't very nice to you either. Perhaps you could take back what you wrote to her and then she'll see you in better light. As it is now, the situation is inflamed.

The only thing which you've written that I take ubrage to is your insistence that S, S & M are the only way. Now, I think that S & M are a good a way as any and you can leave out the other S.

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Date: Thurs, Dec 21, 2000 at 02:33:48 (GMT)
From: gerry
Email: None
To: Mr. Free
Subject: don't know; don't care
Message:
Fuck all that bullshit. Give it up. Get yourself 'free.'
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Date: Thurs, Dec 21, 2000 at 05:36:26 (GMT)
From: Mr. Free
Email: None
To: gerry
Subject: don't know; don't care
Message:
Like why bother to respond? If you got nothin to say...why say anything?
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Date: Thurs, Dec 21, 2000 at 06:51:22 (GMT)
From: Youdiditagain
Email: mrfreeisajerkorworse
To: Mr. Free
Subject: don't know; don't care
Message:
I think he not only had something to say, but that he said it most eloquently and with a wonderful flair!

Also he succinctly articulated your sad and pathetic position and how you should depart from it!

So hit the road SHIT HEAD until you get it together!

lol

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Date: Thurs, Dec 21, 2000 at 07:36:13 (GMT)
From: Mr. Free
Email: None
To: Youdiditagain
Subject: don't know; don't care
Message:
More of the same old attitude. Like I said before you people are so safe behind your keyboards. Would you, could you, tell me this in person face to face or anyone else and take the consequences. Lots of big talk from??????????
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Date: Thurs, Dec 21, 2000 at 09:27:59 (GMT)
From: Youdiditagain
Email: mxxfreeisnot
To: Mr. Free
Subject: don't know; don't care
Message:
lol......

-

You say, 'More of the same old attitude. Like I said before you people are so safe behind your keyboards. Would you, could you, tell me this in person face to face or anyone else and take the consequences. Lots of big talk from??????????'

-

You disruptive viral germ..... If anyone is portraying an OLD ATTITUDE it is you, you are portraying a Neanderthal that can not make an argument that holds up, so you as an OLD ATTITUDE Neanderthal you say or in as much say, {{lets you and I get together so I can smash your face./'take the consequences'}} You are indeed portraying a very old and tired attitude. You can't even go visavis with your self ....., you so called Mr. Free???..... Yes you are not appreciated by we here on this SITE that say in what ever fashion that we say it that you are not welcomed in your present incarnation as an OLD ATTITUDE Neanderthal that says in so many words, so I do not like what you say and since I can not counter your point in any real meaningful fashion I instead want to start putting forth the idea that I would like to get together with you face to face in the physical form so as to imply that there would be a different out come, because as you know that in the intellectual arena you simply find your self as nothing but a pathetic joke who can not find any way to defend your indefensible remarks and your useless dribble that vomits from your sick and pathetic mouth, yes you need to go away and try to get help and maybe later on if not in this life then in some other life you may grasp what an OLD ATTITUDE school yard bully mind-set you are portraying, very boring and very SICK and potentially criminal....... and maybe some day if you try real hard as good an as nice as can be you just might get it, that understanding that you are an OLD ATTITUDE that we are not aligned with.

So MR. Free???(lol)....get face to face with your self and try to work it out, and stay away untill you do.......

You might check also check to see if you have a chemical imbalance or if there is something physically wrong with you as I know how much you enjoy the physical stuff that you can put your hands on.

.
lol
.

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Date: Sat, Dec 23, 2000 at 00:33:49 (GMT)
From: Mr. Free
Email: None
To: Youdiditagain
Subject: don't know; don't care
Message:
How eloquent! You would make a great satirist, however you seem to hate mars conjunct Saturn Conjunct Pluto people I guess. Oh well, as intellectually superior as you are my neaderthal instinct keeps urging you to show a little tact. My point is simply as if your grandiose intellect can't understand it, you could not talk to a person face to face verbally abusing him without getting something back even if it got physical. Even the females slap people when they've had it. I mean get real...If your heart is with your head you're doing good.
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Date: Sat, Dec 23, 2000 at 03:33:39 (GMT)
From: Youdiditagain
Email: None
To: Mr. Free
Subject: don't know; don't care
Message:
Again you put forth the same old tired barbs and jabs without any sanguine discourse just your inane attempt at being rude.

lol

You said: 'If your that damned intelligent what is it in your intellect that caused you to stoop to such a level?'

This is your SPIN your connotation on IT, not mine.

And at this point it would be like, {what is that saying about not casting pearls before swine} well it would be a waist to express to you someone who in your above rantings expresses his lack of 'being', in his so called getting knowledge, lol, and his on going troubles with his temper and so on.

lol lol lol lol lol

You also say: 'Even the females slap people when they've had it.'


Monkey see monkey do?

You are, (not well)

You say above, 'Heart is with your head'

Heart is with your head is supposed to equate with it being alright to slap someone???? Hit them????? Kick them????

It just keeps on going and going and going and going and going on down that slippery SLOPE!!!


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Date: Fri, Dec 22, 2000 at 10:48:43 (GMT)
From: jpf v
Email: None
To: Youdiditagain
Subject: take your own advice.its screaming at you/
Message:
it is.
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Date: Sat, Dec 23, 2000 at 00:27:49 (GMT)
From: Youdiditagain
Email: notforyou
To: jpf v
Subject: Yes, you are screaming and saying nothing!
Message:
You say, 'it is'

You give such a lame, inane response, maybe you are related to him or feel an affinity with him, hmmm.

lol

Your response is, (no response) 'blah blah' = 'it is'

lol

'IT IS' = 'BLAH BLAH'

lol

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Date: Sat, Dec 23, 2000 at 00:53:35 (GMT)
From: Mr. Free
Email: None
To: Youdiditagain
Subject: For the love of Christ on a cross!
Message:
Let's see this thread started with Amar Jyoti and Helen responded. So did Gregg. Where it went from there?
Your obviously superior intellect overshadows us and we know you have a problem with the mars,Saturn, Pluto conjunct people. However you waltzed by the point in your eloquent essay. Shall we call it Opus magnificent? Oh sure you express as you see fit or 'fashion it'
This neanderthal man wants to urge a little tact in your expression and compassion in your heart for all the stupid imbeciles you put up with. Marry it with your marvelous and wondrous mind and you'll be THE MAN. As I said before you couldn't stand on the street and verbally abuse someone.Your just hiding behind your keyboard.It's kind of like people who get aggressive in their cars because they feel safe. Even some of the ladies smack a few people who go too far. What's the difference between physical and verbal abuse? The verbal abusers want the right to abuse without harm. I'm not promoting violence nor do I condone it. There are a few, a very few instances when it might be the best way to deal with a total asshole.
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Date: Sat, Dec 23, 2000 at 03:53:29 (GMT)
From: Youdiditagain
Email: None
To: Mr. Free
Subject: For the love of (For the love of, {NOT})
Message:
You say: 'For the love of Christ on a cross!'

Then it gets stranger.

Then you go on to share the following: 'Even some of the ladies smack a few people who go too far. What's the difference between physical and verbal abuse? '

If you can not discern the difference between that of physical abuse and your so called SPIN on something you call, verbal abuse, then you really really need to look in the yellow pages under mental health and get some help with this confusion that you have.

I'll try to be nice by saying, good luck.

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Date: Wed, Dec 20, 2000 at 21:51:42 (GMT)
From: Here, for the 1st time!
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: The Michael Dettmers Confidentiality Agreement
Message:
Now, through the tireless efforts of a highly-placed network of gossips and spies, we proudly present the world's most stringent, legally binding document.

From the firm of Jacobs, Abraham and Issac, a Law partnership.

I, Michael Dettmers, do solemnly swear to uphold the following:

I will keep in the strictest confidence any of my contemporaneous feelings, perceptions or understandings in regards to Maharaji, instead relying solely on distant hindsight*.

I will keep in the strictest confidence any observations I may have had, regardless of how numerous, of Maharaji's skills, mastery and unique abilities.

I will keep in the strictest confidence any notions I may have had about trustworthiness, discretion or friendship.

I will keep in the strictest confidence any larger picture or perspective that might engender any insight into the actions or words of Maharaji.

I will keep in the strictest confidence all words and activities of Maharaji that were of benefit to me or anyone I might have known.

I will keep in the strictest confidence any and all efforts on Maharaji's part to disseminate the experience hereunder referred to as 'Knowledge,' instead only referring to 2 isolated programs he canceled out of thousands.

I will keep in the strictest confidence any signs of delight, wisdom or joy in people I saw worldwide as a direct result of Maharaji's (and to some degree, my own) efforts and, instead, focus exclusively on the doubts and suffering of those, however small the percentage, who haven't felt those things in his presence, or have, and then forgotten them or ascribed them to other factors.

I will keep in the strictest confidence the fact that Maharaji never made the slightest pretense that he was living the 'ashram' lifestyle nor told anyone else that he was.

I will keep in the strictest confidence the fact that I had 'countless personal experiences' of witnessing that Maharaji not only understood exactly what he was teaching, but embodied it.

I will keep in the strictest confidence ALL acts of kindness and generosity I may have witnessed by Maharaji.

Lastly, and most importantly, I will keep in the strictest confidence anything that I, personally, understood and felt during my time with Maharaji, especially those things that would cast a favorable light upon him and explain what I was doing there in the first place.

*hindsight-the viewing of events, people and conversations through one's posterior.

I do so affirm. M. Dettmers R. Jacobs, esq.

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Date: Wed, Dec 20, 2000 at 22:54:21 (GMT)
From: JohnT
Email: None
To: Anonymous Coward
Subject: & the last time, I hope
Message:
I will keep in the strictest confidence any and all efforts on Maharaji's part to disseminate the experience hereunder referred to as 'Knowledge,'

WAKE UP!   you sad bastard! This site is better at promulgating the four techniques to interested persons than is Rawat. And EPO do it ethically.

Rawat has failed because he is a nasty and greedy little psychopath. He had it all going for him, and has only himself to blame. But like his premies, like you, Mr Anonymous Coward, Rawat cannot learn. He is stuck, caught in the web of lies he span to trap others.

Ha!

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Date: Wed, Dec 20, 2000 at 22:04:30 (GMT)
From: Bin Liner
Email: None
To: Here, for the 1st time!
Subject: Hi Danny you are a proper little Chameleon nt
Message:
nt
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Date: Thurs, Dec 21, 2000 at 00:44:46 (GMT)
From: Mr. Free
Email: None
To: Bin Liner
Subject: Hi Danny you are a proper little Chameleon nt
Message:
Thank God some of this useless rubbish that gets posted by pathetically fucked up people isn't printed on paper. I'd have to join the save the trees foundation.
Michael Dettmers good work, we need more of your kind here, and your intelligent contributions are appreciated.
The same be said of others here to who the above(top) does not apply
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Date: Wed, Dec 20, 2000 at 18:15:30 (GMT)
From: GAC
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: Pimping for Prem Pal Singh Rawat
Message:
;-) Kind of puts a whole new twist on:

'The Lord of the Universe has come to ..... '

So does this change the acronym PAM too?
Yeah, I think it does, Pimp Around Maharaji !

Geez.

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Date: Thurs, Dec 21, 2000 at 13:55:47 (GMT)
From: Windflower
Email: windflower@gurumaharajisucks.org
To: GAC
Subject: Pimping for Prem Pal Singh Rawat + Webmaster skill
Message:
set.

Gee GAC,

Do you think the webmaster Prem Pal Singh Rawat is advertising for must have a thorough understanding of PPP?

Point to Point Protocol ... how apropos;-)

Then again it could stand for:
Prem Pal's Pimp ....

Think of the possibilities via the internet for
Prem Pal's Predilictions.

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Date: Wed, Dec 20, 2000 at 19:36:32 (GMT)
From: Susan
Email: None
To: GAC
Subject: time to sing 'Golden Way' at the ranch in Utah
Message:
Here are the words. I guess Rawat planted his holy seed more places than we ever knew....


You call to us, Oh Lord
Like the flower calls to the bee.
And we rush to You, Oh Lord,
Like the rivers rush to the sea.

Chorus.
And though we'll try every day
To walk Your golden Way
Only by Your Grace,
By Your Mercy, can we approach You.

You're the only one, dear Master,
You're the one that we need.
Draw the veil away, true lover,
Plant Your Holy seed.

Chorus.

Wake us from our dream, Oh Father,
Show us why we're alive.
Hear us breathe Your Name, Oh Father,
Let us come back Inside.

Chorus.

Your love Is all, Maharaj Ji,
We've only sorrows to give.
But now we weep for joy, Maharaj Ji,
And You're the reason we live.

Chorus.

When we see You smile, Maharaj Ji,
Confusion's so far away.
Let us sing Your praise forever,
And make You smile every day.

Chorus.

Soon the world will know, Oh Lord,
That there's no reason to room
May we serve You well, Oh Lord,
To call Your lost children home.

Chorus.

You call to us, Oh Lord,
Like the flower calls to the bee.
And we rush to You, Oh Lord,
Like the rivers rush to the sea.

Chorus.

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Date: Thurs, Dec 21, 2000 at 02:26:24 (GMT)
From: Bin Liner
Email: None
To: Susan
Subject: time to sing Silent Night and dream of what ..
Message:
...could have been.

Then after I've wept , I'm going to sing:

The Internationale

The Marsiellaise

The Battle Hymn Of The Republic

Land Of Hope & Glory

Va Pensiero

The Rising of the Moon

All mixed up together , just like this world , but all to do with Freedom & Justice.

FUCK YOU RAWAT , FUCK YOUR TOADIES ,FUCK YOUR LAWYERS.

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Date: Wed, Dec 20, 2000 at 18:58:55 (GMT)
From: Sir Dave
Email: None
To: GAC
Subject: Pimping for Prem Pal Singh Rawat
Message:
Maharaji, Maharaaji,
Your face shines like a thousand suns,
You have given us all we could ask for,
Peace and bliss and harmony...

I always hated that song. Perhaps the most damning thing is Maharaji's complete lack of concern over the girls he fucked up.

What also strikes me as bizarre is that Maharaji obviously thought he'd get away with all this and keep it a secret.

Now for each and every heavy satsang Maharaji yelled out at the premies, he's going to have to take back every single word and eat it. Perhaps someone can print it all out and ram it down his throat, if necessary.

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Date: Thurs, Dec 21, 2000 at 00:54:20 (GMT)
From: Mr. Free
Email: None
To: Sir Dave
Subject: Pimping for Prem Pal Singh Rawat
Message:
Kind of makes me feel bad that I sucked up all that crap. At least I met some really good loving people there along the way.
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Date: Wed, Dec 20, 2000 at 16:21:23 (GMT)
From: kap
Email: qwerty@pdai.com
To: Everyone
Subject: 16 people interested so far in the ranch
Message:
yes we can do it .by sharing our energies we can have a nice retirement vacation co op ranch in southern nevada.only a few places left.
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Date: Wed, Dec 20, 2000 at 16:28:43 (GMT)
From: gerry
Email: None
To: kap
Subject: Hey last time you said Utah...
Message:
kap,

Now it's Nevada? Only a few places left? Could you flesh this idea out a little?

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Date: Thurs, Dec 21, 2000 at 14:07:34 (GMT)
From: kap
Email: qwerty@pdai.com
To: gerry
Subject: Hey last time you said Utah...
Message:
the location depends on land purchase availability northern nevada or southern utah .merry christmas to you all and a happy new year ,may you never be exploited again love kap
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Date: Wed, Dec 20, 2000 at 17:27:07 (GMT)
From: Mr. Free
Email: None
To: gerry
Subject: This idea is not clearly thought out
Message:
The idea in principle is good. However there are isuues such as who owns what, because if someone decides to leave it should not be a total loss. Perhaps everyone contributes so much to community farming acreage and communal land and buys up his own 1/2 to 1 acre to build as he or she so pleases. If they decide to leave they must sell it back to the community as a whole at market value.
Utah..Not. Colorado, Montana, or New Mexico maybe. Maybe everyone puts up 3 grand and we put it into pork bellies and if all goes well we can buy the land in Hawaii.
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Date: Fri, Dec 22, 2000 at 11:00:01 (GMT)
From: janet of venice
Email: None
To: kap
Subject: the poles are melting-forget hawaii
Message:
b4 you commit, seriously investigate water rights, sanitation,road access, geophysical underlying features, mineral rights, permits and your potential neighbors. any one of these can ruin you if youre stupid. caveat emptor.
if cayce was right, get east of the Rockies. the oceans ARE rising.
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Date: Fri, Dec 22, 2000 at 14:25:38 (GMT)
From: charlie(kap)
Email: qwerty@pdai.com
To: janet of venice and all
Subject: the poles are melting-forget hawaii
Message:
it seems you have experience with intentional communities ,please continue to give me advise in this spiritual endever, friend .can we learn from our mistakes ?come on folks share your feelings on this .have you retained hope in your hearts that mankind can share and respect one another? your friend charlie (kap)
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Date: Thurs, Dec 21, 2000 at 14:32:00 (GMT)
From: kap
Email: qwerty@pdai.com
To: Mr. Free
Subject: the co-op model is well know and as you stated.
Message:
yes the co-op model is as you stated the land is purchased as a full co-op using a corperation as a shell,certain covenents are made ,no industrial use, no junk yards ,no hog farms ect. on the individuals cabin sites. then the common area with a shared community house for socializing,guest house (bunk house) for victimized ex premies ,who have given much to rawat and are destitute in their old age .they could act as caretakers and do some gardening to produce organic foods .consensus government would be a good idea ,with someway to break stalemates.i suggest southern utah because land is cheap low population density and weather mild.i believe comunities magazine offers help in setting up a co-op.these places are called intentional communities.
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Date: Wed, Dec 20, 2000 at 16:20:13 (GMT)
From: shp
Email: None
To: Michael Dettmers
Subject: To Michael Dettmers Re your confidential agreement
Message:
Michael,

I have to jot this off fast as I am going to work...but it just occurred to me how strange it is that Maharaji would not demand a confidentiality agreement about things other than money such as his personal life, etc, family, sex, x-rated premies, et al.

Comments?

Sandy

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Date: Wed, Dec 20, 2000 at 23:09:25 (GMT)
From: Michael Dettmers
Email: dettmers@gylanix.com
To: shp
Subject: My response
Message:
Sandy,

As I have explained several times before, I was under contract to oversee certain legal and financial matters on behalf of Maharaji. I was also a director on the boards of several companies in which Maharaji had a financial or beneficial interest. Thus, my contract, including its non-disclosure clause, was a standard business agreement entered into by most individuals who are acting in a fiduciary capacity. The non-disclosure clause of my contract refers only to the specific financial and legal matters I handled. Maharaji had nothing to do with my Agreement. It was his lawyer who insisted on it and it made perfect sense to me.

Michael

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Date: Thurs, Dec 21, 2000 at 12:39:05 (GMT)
From: JTF
Email: None
To: Michael Dettmers
Subject: Thanks, Michael
Message:
The information you have provided here has been very helpful to me and I'm sure many others as well. I can sense that you know to only respond to posts if you want to and not because you have to do it.

I think that one of the most valuable aspects of EPO is the info it provides for people coming in from the storm. The number of people aware of this site is very small in comparison to those who have left rawat. Most people disappear from the cult and somehow find it easier to blame themselves as deficient in some way rather than learning, accepting and ultimately forgiving themselves for being scammed by rawat.

I suppose in some bizzarre way, it is easier to look down on ourselfs as incapable of realizing K than admitting we wuz scammed!

Thanks, again..

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Date: Thurs, Dec 21, 2000 at 03:59:08 (GMT)
From: shp
Email: None
To: Michael Dettmers
Subject: Just a word, Michael
Message:
Michael,

I did not ask you this question as any sort of challenge or attack to anything about you, your business dealings or anything you have disclosed here. As a matter of fact, I am grateful for the perspectives you have provided. I just sensed a little defensiveness there, perhaps you misread me.

It just seems strange to me in general that money business is kept under wraps and all the other stuff out in the open, not just about Maharaji, but any and all high profile people. Lives get trashed, marriages get ruined, kids get passed from mansion to mansion, but oh that money and anything about it is protected. To me, personal private human business is more important and sacred than financial business.

What you have shared about Maharaji's dealings with female premies and other situations makes me cringe. Knowing about it saddens me, but I would rather know the truth and regroup than live and die in a comfortable illusion. Thank you.

Sandy

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Date: Thurs, Dec 21, 2000 at 19:08:24 (GMT)
From: AJW
Email: None
To: shp
Subject: Hi Sandy
Message:
Hope all is well with you and yours. I think your departure from the cult has been one of the Forum events of the year. When you had that long conversation with Michael, my wife read every word with apt concentration.

have a good Christmas and New Year

Anth in the Schipol

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Date: Fri, Dec 22, 2000 at 00:27:29 (GMT)
From: shp
Email: None
To: AJW
Subject: Hi Anth
Message:
I never belonged to a cult.
I never left a cult.
I am following God.
He takes me all over the place!

Get your coat and grab your hat
Leave your worries on the doorstep
Just direct your feet
To the sunny side of the street...!

Happy Holidays to You and Yours,

Sandy

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Date: Thurs, Dec 21, 2000 at 12:09:23 (GMT)
From: Salam
Email: None
To: shp
Subject: Shp
Message:
Nice seeing you.

What I want to say is this.

Micheal is not some kind of rag doll that we thorigh around. Yet it appears that this is the attitude around here. Every now and then everyone seem to turn on him as the devil in disguise. I think that shows very little respect. Micheal has not been involved with blubber for 15 years. He is not prey to knowing what goes on in blubbers' world. Yet we appear to think the opposite.

Micheal has volunteered his time, and am sure a lot of emotions and self questioning to making things clearer for us. Our thanks to him as far as I see it is for filling our heads with a lot more crap about m. Yet no one seems to be concerened about him as an individual. I have a lot of things to say to you and everyone else. But I refrain as I know it is counterproductive.

If Micheal want to say something it is his decision, he is a big boy.

So concider.

Good luck

Salam

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Date: Thurs, Dec 21, 2000 at 12:51:18 (GMT)
From: shp
Email: None
To: Salam
Subject: We ALL deserve the same respect
Message:
Salam,

Your intentions may be good, but I don't need you to explain how things go here or anywhere else. Please stop inserting yourself into dialogs I am involved in with your attitude. Thanks.

Sandy

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Date: Thurs, Dec 21, 2000 at 13:09:53 (GMT)
From: Salam
Email: None
To: shp
Subject: Thank you
Message:
You can fuck off too.
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Date: Thurs, Dec 21, 2000 at 13:33:57 (GMT)
From: shp
Email: None
To: Salam
Subject: Why do you always have to be into the juice?
Message:
...and rev out on the conversations of others? And then take the conversation into the gutter? No need to answer me, but you really ought to ask yourself these questions.
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Date: Fri, Dec 22, 2000 at 11:36:26 (GMT)
From: janet of venice
Email: None
To: shp
Subject: sandy,its not yours only, here.make room
Message:
i was all set to put in asupportive comment to you for the massive realizations youmt have gone thru here this year, and then you go and do a thing like this.
what kind of an answer is ' i am not in a cult, i never was'?
its denial sandy. its that trying to see everything as shinyhappyappy,trying to distance yourself from all the genuine sadness, down days, disappointments and dark aspects, when life is both/ and. you are still trying hard to maintain that onesided cult programing you learned as a premie. its unreal. real humans dont live in that forced, highstrung,unnatural, saccharine effort. its fragile. it shatters. real emotion ranges all over. there is nothing you can slice so thin it only has one side.
you speak to us as if to say 'you needs you? i have God'. and totally forget that maybe all of us are God, speaking to you from different vantage points. You are never going to meet God as you meet us, here and on the street. this is it. this is where it happens. if you spurn it here, you arent gonna know it anywhere.
salam can enter an exchange if theres something about it that moves him. thats what the format is for. something gets posted and all who feel the urge are free to respond with what they feel. is an open discussion, not a private phone call. there are no perfect people. you can't judge like that. if we did, we would soon be alone, because no one could live up to anyone's idea of how we should be. there is an arrogance to that. that also dates from the premie ego and snobbery.most unlike a full feeling human being. smacks of cult conditioning again.
god isnt leading you sandy. you're leading you. we don't really know what god is. all we know is what we have down here. that disconnect is cult thinking. own your life again. that skating over the dark stuff, avoiding the unpleasant, --that isnt an authentic life, well lived. thats fake.its a hustle. its a dodge. its a copout.dont do it. no one likes it and you dont have to anymore.let the real feelings come. and don't go chasing anyone off this forum. this place is like AA-all are welcome if they are trying to recover. everyone does it their own way, comes as they are. faking it doesnt get any of the work done.
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Date: Fri, Dec 22, 2000 at 17:11:37 (GMT)
From: shp
Email: None
To: janet of venice
Subject: Dear Janet
Message:
And I mean that, dear Janet....

Your heart is very feelable to me in your post, and I am compelled to respond righ now just having read it.

I KNOW we are all part of God, and that Most High Creator speaks through all of us if we are listening and paying attention all questions get answered sooner or later..sometimes through the most unlikely channel. ('Out of the mouth of babes'...God will take the foolish things of this world to confound the wise and prudent..')

I am VERY grateful for what good / truth / clarity has come to me via this site. It's like panning for gold here, alot of rocks and gravel, and also some golden nuggets. Obviously from your post, I have not articulated that well enough for you to pick up on, so I hope that is cleared up.

As for Salam, I just feel that Salam has been 'into the juice' as I described. Imagine being in a circle with some folks. And imagine that there is one person who just has to stick their two cents into every exchange, even if the insertion has no real substance other than to proclaim 'here I am, look at me', like a spoiled kid. That was how I was feeling with Salam, who was trying to speak for Michael Dettmers and explain to me the score, as if I needed someone's input. I think we all have the right as individuals to speak freely about how we feel about each other's
way of coming across in order to refine and improve the way we
communicate.

As St. Francis taught, I love the sinner and hate the sin. I hold no personal grudges against Salam or anyone. But if I come out like that and bust somebody for coming on to me in a way I find weird, please don't interpret that as anything else.

As for who is leading, yes I have something to do with it. But I do believe in a much higher intellignece than my own that permeates the universe and which I can tap into for a better understanding of whatever it is I need to know. And yes, other people play a big part in it.

Reminds me of the story about Clem. Ol' Clem was sitting on his porch reading his Bible when a car full of his neighbors screeched up to his house and a buddy yelled

'Come on Clem! There's a flash flood coming!! Get in!!

To which Clem replied,

'That's OK, you all go on ahead. Says here in the Good Book that the Lord Hisself will save me with His own hand.'

A little while later, since the water had risen some, Clem was upstairs in his bedroom reading the Good Book. Some friends of his rowed by his window and shouted in

'Come on Clem!! The flash flood is getting worse!! Hop in!!'

To which Clem calmly replied,

'That's OK...You go on ahead...The Lord is gonna be here any minute to save me with His own hand, like it says here in the Good Book!!'

A little bit later, as Clem was sitting on his roof reading the Good Book (the water had risen consideraby), some more friends hovered over him in a helicopter with a rope ladder extended down
to him and they yelled down,

'Come ON, Clem!!! This is IT! Climb up!!'

To which Clem replied...well, you know what he replied. He was waiting for Chirst's forearm with his sleeve rolled up to reach down through the clouds and pick him up personally, just like it says in the Good Book.....

Fade to black.....

Sometime later, Clem finds himself standing dripping wet in front of the pearly gates, very pissed and confused. St. Peter comes over to him, clipboard in hand, and asks Clem what his story is.
Clem goes over the whole thing, with 8 x 10 glossies with circles and arrows on the back, the whole magilla...and demands to know why the Good Book 'misled' him.

St. Peter exasperatedly replied,

'Clem, we sent you a station wagon, a rowboat and a helicopter, for Chirst's sake!!!'

Merry Christmas,

Sandy

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Date: Fri, Dec 22, 2000 at 17:28:18 (GMT)
From: shp
Email: None
To: shp
Subject: Dear Janet / PS
Message:
As for whether or not I consider myself having been in a 'cult',
I have been in none or many, depending on who is doing the defining of what a cult is.

I was born Jewish. Many people think that is an ancient cult.

I consider myself a beatnik/hippie to this day. Many consider that a cult.

I was on the Farm in Tennessee that was founded by Stephen Gaskin. I still believe alot of what he taught me. Many consider that a cult.

I was in a monestary. Many consider that a cult.

I received Knowledge and have been a premie. Many consider that a cult.

Ex-premie.org is also called a cult.

I look at my life as one thing, one journey, one search that took me to many places along the way. Breaking it down to what is and is not a cult has no value to me and breaks up the continuity of the bigger picture of why I went to where I went. Every nation, every religion, every school of thought about everything can be tagged as a cult. I see no positive use of demonizing that term.

Just like the lady in the bubble says in that high vibrato voice in the Wizard of Oz,

'Are you a good witch or a bad witch?'

The question isn't 'cult or not a cult', but rather

'Are you a good cult or a bad cult?'

Appearances can be deceiving....

In the course of one week, I have been approached by folks who thought I was:

a) a hare krishna devotee
b) a nazi skinhead punk
c) a zen buddhist monk or teacher
d) a chemotherapy patient
e) a competetive swimmer

Why? Simply because I have no hari, I mean hair.
See waht I mean? Can't go by appearnaces or labels.
What's inside, that's what counts.

Gotta love ya,

Sandy

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Date: Thurs, Dec 21, 2000 at 14:15:50 (GMT)
From: Salam
Email: None
To: shp
Subject: I like being in the juice
Message:
I am a juicy kind of person, in fact everyone is.

There are no questions for me to ask, I am flat out. Maybe you should have checked your reply first before you posted it, or better re-read my post. I am not attacking you you boofhead. If you want to bagger Micheal go ahead, everyone else seems to be doing it.

Micheal already answered you. He probably gives a sense of being detached of what he is saying, so that assholes do not keep repeating the same question over and over. Also, in case you did not know, money is what make the world goes round, love has nothing to do with it.

Salam the sticky fly.

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Date: Thurs, Dec 21, 2000 at 15:32:52 (GMT)
From: shp
Email: None
To: Salam
Subject: One more time and that is it
Message:
I am a juicy kind of person, in fact everyone is.

>By 'into the juice', I mean that whenever there seems to be some energy between two people, you seem to stick yourself right there in between the point and the plug, where the energy arc is, and soak it up.

There are no questions for me to ask, I am flat out. Maybe you should have checked your reply first before you posted it, or better re-read my post. I am not attacking you you boofhead. If you want to bagger Micheal go ahead, everyone else seems to be
doing it.

>'Bagger' sounds negative to me, and that is not what I was doing to Michael. I don't think he needs you to defend him either way.

Micheal already answered you. He probably gives a sense of being detached of what he is saying, so that assholes do not keep repeating the same question over and over.

>This is what I mean by being 'into the juice'. You have glommed onto the biggest 'celebrity' on the Forum, and are acting like his press secretary, and Michael in reality just another brother of mine who had a particularly tough job involving alot of variables on many levels. I feel for him.

Also, in case you did not know, money is what make the world goes round, love has nothing to do with it.

>How naive you are to say that. Gravitational rotation is what makes the world go around, money makes the economy go around, and love makes people go around. People who think like you are the ones who make the world ugly and perpetuate it by repeating the same materialistic mantra.

>So now this thread that I was directing to Michael is now all about Salam. Happy? I hope so, because I am taking a break from you and anyone else who is abusive. This will be my last contact to you for awhile. My life is not your or any other mortal's play.

You take care now, ya hear?

Sandy

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Date: Thurs, Dec 21, 2000 at 16:34:41 (GMT)
From: Salam
Email: None
To: shp
Subject: My mouth is shut
Message:
mmmm mhmh mmm m m mmmmm.
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Date: Thurs, Dec 21, 2000 at 02:44:38 (GMT)
From: Bazza
Email: None
To: Michael Dettmers
Subject: Just a thought....
Message:
Michael,

Does the non-disclosure clause in your contract have any expiration date? I mean, was it specified that you would take this information to your grave, so to speak? Have you had any other lawyers examine the contract since, to see if there were any loopholes? I have to sign similar documents all the time, epecially when I am filming depositions or SEC meetings, so I respect your stance in this, but quite often the ND's I have to sign specify a period of about 5 years.

thanks

Barry

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Date: Wed, Dec 20, 2000 at 17:41:21 (GMT)
From: Mr. Free
Email: None
To: shp
Subject: Michael was he OK in the beggining?
Message:
How often we start out as idealists until the reality of a given situation hits home. Do you think M was sincere in the beginning and fell prey to the temptation of power fame wealth and the rest? Somehow he seemed totally ok to me back in1972...but what do I know?
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Date: Wed, Dec 20, 2000 at 22:39:13 (GMT)
From: JohnT
Email: None
To: Mr. Free
Subject: Me Free, he was always a fake
Message:
What he said in those days was more outrageous than the claims he makes now.

Kids can get away with stuff, you know. But this kid was laying the foundations for his future -- a boy of fourteen can be as much of a sociopath as a man of forty. Just a lot more cute. And he milked it to the full.

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Date: Wed, Dec 20, 2000 at 15:50:23 (GMT)
From: christian
Email: qwerty@pdai.com
To: Everyone
Subject: where is jim hawks
Message:
whatever happened to jim hawks from santa cruz?
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Date: Wed, Dec 20, 2000 at 15:48:41 (GMT)
From: christian
Email: qwerty@pdai.com
To: any santa cruz expremies
Subject: would like to contact any santa cruz friends .
Message:
i would like to contact any santa cruz expremies who attended satsang at the house near the beach arround 72 to 74,im christian the ex krishna guy who lived there for a time arround 72 to 74.
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Date: Wed, Dec 20, 2000 at 20:55:47 (GMT)
From: Mickey the Pharisee
Email: None
To: christian
Subject: would like to contact any santa cruz friends .
Message:
I was a San José premie, but I received knowledge in Santa Cruz in 1973. I haven't heard from anyone in the San José, Santa Cruz, Palo Alto communities. Maybe they are all still in the evil clutches of the LOTU!
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Date: Wed, Dec 20, 2000 at 02:42:28 (GMT)
From: Capricornicus
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: M would love this ranch
Message:
If only we could invite him to stayFunctional Area Event Team Event Synchronization Manager

Job Description To work with other event managers in a team setting to ensure that event planning is in synch with overall synchronized objectives. Responsibilities include developing a thorough understanding of synchronized event management functions, and gathering relevant input for events from the speakers, the audience, previous events, other teams (including documented and syncrhronized specifications for the event) and communicating the same to synchronized event team, and making sure that the event supports synchronized propagation objectives.

Skills required Pevious experience as an event team area synchronization manager on a national or regional level required, or the equivalent professional experience. General understanding of all areas of event operations. Ability to clearly communicate verbally and in writing. Familiarity with and access to word processing, spreadsheet, and other common desktop applications. Access to email, internet, fax and telephone. Comfortable and effective in a team dynamic.
Time needed Estimated at 10 - 15 hours per week on average, with potentially more time during the weeks surrounding an event.

Click to Apply
or email participation@elanvital.org with Job#POP015 in the subject.

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Date: Sat, Dec 23, 2000 at 05:49:35 (GMT)
From: Nigel
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: In synch or going down it? (nt)
Message:
nt
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Date: Thurs, Dec 21, 2000 at 18:55:34 (GMT)
From: AJW
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: Synchronisation
Message:
Dear Chief Synchroniser,

I would like to synchronise myself with your synchronisation team and apply for the job of synchronisation manager so I can synchronise myself with the overall synchronised objectives and synchronised specification.

Yours in synch

Anth the synchronised.

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Date: Thurs, Dec 21, 2000 at 17:31:14 (GMT)
From: Steve Quint
Email: the_avenger55@hotmail.com
To: Joe
Subject: What the hell is this???
Message:
I checked the source, Joe. It looks like you added a few 'synchronizes' to the original. Of course the question is which version is more synchronized with the overall synchronized objectives of the perfect synchrnized being, guru mahasynchedoutoncetoomanytimes.

Steve

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Date: Wed, Dec 20, 2000 at 20:34:01 (GMT)
From: Cynthia
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: Joe....
Message:
Sounds like the key word here is ''syncronized.''

In a syncronized way, of course, involving other syncronized individuals, who, btw, are also syncronized. GEEZE!

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Date: Wed, Dec 20, 2000 at 23:01:03 (GMT)
From: Joe
Email: None
To: Cynthia
Subject: My Palm Pilot
Message:
Funny, when I update my Palm Pilot by plugging it into my computer, it says that a 'Hotsync' is in progress that then it goes through a series of 'synchronizing' processes (mail, calendar, etc.) Maybe that's where EV/Maharaji got the word. I'm sure BM has all those gadgets.

I think both DLM and EV are particuarly susceptible to buzzwords, because cults are always using buzzwords anyway, to convey 'special' meanings.

I was thinking of Eric and Charlene recently. I frankly think that to the extent Eric is a premie, it's only because Charlene is. I don't think Eric really buys that nonsense, although I wouldn't be surprised if Charlene does. Do you ever see them?

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Date: Thurs, Dec 21, 2000 at 00:26:44 (GMT)
From: la-ex
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: eric and charlene
Message:
Joe-I couldn't help but overhear your conversation with cynthia, about eric and charlene.
I knew eric fairly well during the deca days...he seemed quite ready to jettison the guru thing back then...
I almost visited them last year in Vermont,but didn't quite make it that far up in the state...
I didn't know charlene, but I 'd be surprised if eric was gung-ho on the guru these days...
I did see both of them in Long Beach about 4-5 years ago at a program...

la-ex

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Date: Thurs, Dec 21, 2000 at 00:34:45 (GMT)
From: Joe
Email: None
To: la-ex
Subject: eric and charlene
Message:
I was good friends with Eric, and I knew Charlene, but not well. In 1983, I was Eric's best man at his wedding, just about the time I was leaving the ashram, and the cult. It was all very confusing. Nice people, both. Long time ashram premies from the 70s.

I visited them a couple of times in Vermont, but the last time was about 10 years ago. At that time, neither was really into Maharaji anymore; at least neither talked about it, except Eric really, truly, completely was not into it and really felt he had wasted his youth following Maharaji.

Then, I heard they kind of went back to the cult. I talked to Eric once on the phone, and he said he wasn't sure, but was sort of involved. I don't think Charlene ever really stopped being a ture believer, but due to their relative isolation, I think their involvement as been minimal.

But I know Eric pretty well. Deep down, he knows it's a crock.

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Date: Thurs, Dec 21, 2000 at 00:53:41 (GMT)
From: Cynthia
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: Hi Joe: eric and charlene
Message:
I haven't had contact with nither eric nor charlene since I finally became an ex. That's going on about a year and a half. Last time I looked on EV, there was no contact for any events or programs in Vermont at all.

Charlene was the community contact when I left and she felt very overwhelmed, I think, because of Eric and also, they have two lovely kids who are teens.

Who can say? The last clear image I have of Eric was after that horrid ''satsang'' feed M gave when he swore at us and complained of our lack of gratitude in the nastiest tone I've ever heard him give in to premies, including those ''ashram satsangs.''

Eric had spent the summer building an addition onto their house with radiant heated tile floors so that they could hold video events there. He put a lot of work and money into it. He was happy about it, only to be told ''You ingrate.'' Plus, they invested in the ''dish'' too, to hold video events. M slapped everyone in the face that day. What a bastard!

Eric promptly left their nice old farmhouse, went out into the yard and started hitting the ground with some garden tool. I looked at him and said to myself, yeah, I'm royally pissed at M too.

I haven't contacted them. I feel kind of funny talking about them like this, they are very nice folks, and work hard, and are in the same position so many of us were....

Love,
Cynthia

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Date: Wed, Dec 20, 2000 at 03:01:57 (GMT)
From: TED Farkel
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: Now hold on there Mr. Joe-you'd be great!
Message:
Dear Mr. Joe W.-

You seem like a right smart feller, college educated and all that....I'm thinkin you just might be the right man for the job!

I heard you were one smart community coordinator in your day...devotional,yet down to earth,a good servant,solid meditator, and you could spin a good satsang when you had to...

Since I'm new to this spiritual stuff, it's just a suggestion...but I'm thinkin that to balance off your karma from the last few years on the EPO site, maybe you SHOULD apply for that job...I think it might balance out your karmic debt...

TED Farkel
(pretty sure, but will await Mr. eDrek's final word on the appropriateness of all this)

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Date: Wed, Dec 20, 2000 at 02:30:51 (GMT)
From: Ben Lurking
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: FAETESM? fatism fatal fail by follow M
Message:
Well lets parse the sentence
From the Job title we know they are looking for a manager
We know that it involves either Synchronization, event Synchronization, Team Event Synchronization, Event Team Event Synchronziation, Area Event Team Event Synchronization, Area Event Team Event Synchronization of Functions, unfortunately I get lost at this point as I am uncertain whether Functional is part of area or in lieu of disfunctional, i.e. we want a Functional human being to synchronize Area Events with Team Events and the management is the synchronization of those two, but if we are managing a Functional Area Event by Synchronizing Team Events well thats a whole other ball of wax. I guess if any of us had any real world experience we would know it and be able to apply and we might understand it.
Actually I think it is a function maager that synchronizes the area event team with the non area event team either way it's TFUTFO or we aren't qualified, I mean access to the internet - who will see that job offer if they don't have access to the internet, and then access to email and those 2 hi-tech devices a phone and a fax. I think this ad rates right up there with the tv ads that used to show a parent who couldn't read with his child and they would flash a message acroos the screen - If you need help reading call 1234567. I also like the ads at drive up windows that say if you need a braille menu please ask, and then its in braille below the text. I understand handing a braille menu to someone in the car but who will drivel up and need to read the braille text?
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Date: Wed, Dec 20, 2000 at 01:03:14 (GMT)
From: Sir Dave
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: I'm the man for the job, I think
Message:
Trouble is, I got lost after the first sentence. However, I do have all the necessary verbal and computer skills and I could learn to speak and write gobbledegook with a little synchronised training.

And this is your own National karma, you people, since it was you Americans who exported this kind of verbal garbage to us Brits.

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Date: Wed, Dec 20, 2000 at 01:15:30 (GMT)
From: Selene
Email: None
To: Sir Dave
Subject: actually Sir Dave
Message:
Since you have not submitted a CV I feel the more qualified:
Not to pick on Asians (ha I see Jim smiling)
our indoctrination into the team team team thing came from TQM and CORE (Constant Ongoing Renewal) which came from the Japanese model of project management.
Or so I was told. But hey, the spearhead was a Landmark Forum type so where did HIS guru come from?
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Date: Wed, Dec 20, 2000 at 01:18:39 (GMT)
From: gerry
Email: None
To: Selene
Subject: actually Selene
Message:
TQM was exported to Japan by an American named Demmings, I believe...
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Date: Wed, Dec 20, 2000 at 01:53:15 (GMT)
From: Roger eDrek
Email: drek@oz.net
To: gerry
Subject: This is a job for gErRy!
Message:
gErRy! you are perfect for this synchronized job.

You've got all the skills, you've got the time.

They probably don't have a picture of you since you left so long ago.

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Date: Wed, Dec 20, 2000 at 01:19:56 (GMT)
From: Selene
Email: None
To: gerry
Subject: oh
Message:
well he must have been in a cult too. I should explore this.
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Date: Wed, Dec 20, 2000 at 01:27:40 (GMT)
From: gerry
Email: None
To: Selene
Subject: Yes, it was called 'Demming's Lemming' I think...
Message:
Well, no text here, how 'bout that red butler guy?
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Date: Wed, Dec 20, 2000 at 00:43:38 (GMT)
From: Selene
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: it's relief we don't have to go there
Message:
This whole team setting thing is bizarre enough and most people are sick to death of it, but not them, not EV it seems. Have they been in a time warp? Isn't working for god enough to facilitate coordination?
The synchronization thing is the funniest part though. It brings to mind a scene from an indie movie:
I wonder, do I qualify after all those years?
If I apply I am going to say:

1. I am adept at troubleshooting crisis over the phone - (making sure the banckrupt and insane do not abuse my credit card number - the inevitable getting a room at an event)

2. able to take notes and plan damage control while dealing with irrational and very stressed out people (the other premie / premies who think they should have the room to themselves for irrational reasons and are screaming their guts at me)

3.all this while maintianing a calm soothing voice and persona (so anyone around me will not know what a stupid bunch of bozos my fellow cult members are.)

4. adept at knowing how to synchronize the finale (handling up the phone, hard but not enough to damage equipment)

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Date: Tues, Dec 19, 2000 at 23:56:38 (GMT)
From: Mr. Free
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: Don't Let Negativity become a cult
Message:
Good work on this forum. As I've said before this stuff has to be posted, the world should know. Also appreciate all the krishna, moonie exposes and anything else that fits.
I keep digging and looking for some form of positive expression here. OK forget God(what is G.O.D. anyway) guru's ,religion, bliss, politics ,money, football,violence, chauvinism etc.... What I can't figure out is what do you stand for. I know what you stand against.
I want to hear about some bright spots. What's good in your life? How have you replaced the void left from K? Life after knowledge...the good news.
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Date: Wed, Dec 20, 2000 at 06:59:00 (GMT)
From: Bazza
Email: bshaw8@bellsouth.net
To: Mr. Free
Subject: The good news?
Message:
Well let's see...

I'm not afraid of what my 'premie peers' or worse, Elan Vital honchos, would think of me or my opinion of maharaji now, so I use my own name instead of hiding behind a pseudonym like you do, for instance.

I stopped thinking that everything good or bad which happened in my life was somehow a product of how much meditation I did (or didn't do).

I'm once more free to explore and enjoy other spiritual paths, if I so wish, without that nagging rawat rhetoric in my head trying to tell me 'knowledge is the one true way'

I no longer experience guilt or demean my position in the Scheme of Things by buying into the Surrender Thyself (to me)creed of rawat.

I'm having a blast this Christmas, for the first time since 1977.

Did I mention the joy of not being too afraid to say who I am, Mr 'Free'? Oh yes, but never mind, it bears repeating doesn't it?

I have a question for you, though I usually make it a policy not to talk to faceless persons. Why exactly are you 'digging' here as you say, looking for positive expression? Are you lonely? Nobody else to talk to? Would you like to talk on the phone?

Oh and btw, knowledge didn't 'leave a void', knowledge WAS a void - empty facile words spoken by an insincere womanizing exploiter.

Merry Christmas
Barry

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Date: Thurs, Dec 21, 2000 at 07:55:17 (GMT)
From: Mr. Free
Email: None
To: Bazza
Subject: The good news?
Message:
Actually I like your response. Amazing I found a positive response. In answer to your question, no I'm not lonely. I've got a good wife 2 good kids and I'm happy with my job.
And since I shared so many years of my life involved with knowledge I guess I'm really digging for something good here. The website is excellent, the forum is full of rude people. I guess I'm a little disappointed with some of the attitudes.
Hey I got duped too! I just chose to accept that 's the way it is and it was a big letdown...but life goes on. Every thought is part of our future and I'm free as in Mr. Free to think and build my future follow my path any way I choose. I wish I hadn't let some of the negativity here trip my trigger.
I figure M's karma is what it is, and I don't have to contribute anything ever to him or his mission. And guess what else? I'm not going to take a 1000 births of suffering for it.
Maybe I just need to get used to the idea that People haven't gotten over it yet. Still their is a better way of dealing with it.
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Date: Wed, Dec 20, 2000 at 06:37:35 (GMT)
From: Youdiditagain
Email: nomindgames
To: Mr. Free
Subject: Don't Let Negativity become a cult
Message:
I for one can do with out your minimizing compliments,,, followed by assertions that we/{this SITE} does, {your word, 'exposes'} exposes on 'krishna, moonie exposes and anything else that fits', well that sort of generalization which it is, is simple not true as a generalization, yes things that are pointed out about many things that are wrong including from time to time some well known Cults, BUT this is not the (FLAG/bumper sicker) that this Site is waving! What this Site's FLAG/bumper sticker if there was one would be something aligned to the principle that every person has the right to live {{{FREE}}} ........... ,,, by the way, *Mr. Free* you are anything but free!,,,,, AND so for you to unconscionably say in your diatribe then, 'How have you replaced the void left from K?' shows that you still need HELP/deprogramming, (lol), you take as a given that 'K' has left a void, as if someone who does one or more things for someone or organization and later finds that that person or organization is CRAP is left with a void, this is not the case as it is the intent of the giver to give not to the person or organization but what that person or organization was representing to them, yes they were affronted by that person or organization, but that is most truly not what they were giving to.

So Life after Knowledge? No No NO....... I would say to those most wonderful and noble people who had it in their minds and hearts to come to that that promised and in some of its words spoke of such true love, awakening, clarity, charity, humanity, and happiness for one and all..... and then had the WILL the HEART the CLEARITY to then say to this Guru M guy and this Cult that it is way way way wrong, can you say F***ING SICK.... ,,, But then they go forward with their life with NO VOID as there never was something there but what was in the hearts of those that were lied to.

- So I do not KNOW if that will satisfy you and I do not care......, but it satisfies me.....

And IF YOU would have taken time or maybe I should say made a real sincere effort to read the LOVE and the CAREING and the BEAUTY that is put forth by so many of the MOST WONDERFUL and after K people here you would not have said what you said unless you are motivated by some sick reason or reasons.......

Yes, this Site is a place to say, 'F... YOU M' but also, .................

'''And yes as I picked up that little girl who was crying because she fell down on the ice as she was trying for the first time to learn how to skate I said to her sweetie its ok I fell down many times also when I tried to first learn how to skate and as a matter fact I still do fall down sometimes but I understand that that is something that happens and that I should not let it bother me, but a secret just between us, it does at least for awhile, but I know better to let it stop me from skating, and then with that the {X-Prem} took the little girls hand and they both skated on the ice as the {X-Prem} reflected on how this analogy of falling down on the ice and getting sad but then getting up and skating on is what happens in many ways in life......'''

The point I am trying to make is that there are many stories here on this Site that show the beauty the spirit the heart the love of these that have left 'K', 'M' , or 'DLM', same same same thing...... and if you were being real free of crap you would see that......

Yes, don't let negativity become a cult, But to say that 'YOU IMPLY THAT' that that is what is going on here, YOU ARE NOT ONLY WRONG, you are unconscionably rude and crude!!!

Take some time and read the honest real and beautiful reads that are on this WONDERFUL SITE and the love which is here.

This SITE might not be for you...... if you are in need of disparaging left handed compliments and rude and crude remarks.........like you have just put forth.

It does take a truly free or at least a somewhat open mind to see the light that is shinning here otherwise you just see what you imagine in your darkness, whatever that illusion or allusion might be........

To all the brave harts that have fallen down on the ice and have gotten up and are now skating again..... It is so nice to KNOW that you are there.

I could go on but, I think that is enough GOOD NEWS for those that can see it.

lol

.

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Date: Wed, Dec 20, 2000 at 02:10:34 (GMT)
From: Sir Dave
Email: None
To: Mr. Free
Subject: Don't Let Negativity become a cult
Message:
I left the cult back in 1983 so I can't really comment on the benefits of me leaving since I'm a very different person now but I will say that it was refreshing to leave the cult and cult followers and mix with normal people and forget all about Maharaji.

Speaking about recent times though, the ex-premie online movement has made me learn more about the internet and how to create websites - something which I couldn't do a couple of years ago. This has been useful for real business.

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Date: Wed, Dec 20, 2000 at 01:00:42 (GMT)
From: The Great Thing Is
Email: None
To: Mr. Free
Subject: Everyone is different....
Message:
The ex-premies have gone on to all kinds of things in their lives. Some are religious, some are athiests. Some like sports, some don't. Some have families and some are single. Politically, there seems to be a bent towards the Democrat/Green side of things, but we have a few Republicans, too. Judging from the posts, they got just as involved in our recent election debacle as anybody else. You will also find that there is quite a bit of variation of what they think about the cult they used to belong to. Some think meditation is helpful, some don't do it. Most think Maharaji is a fraud and are glad to see him exposed for what he really is.
Like the rest of the world, the opinions and feelings are quite diverse. It's kind of great, really.

Here is a website you might want to check out:

www.openlettertomaharaji.org

This letter was put together by a group called The Maharaji Responsbility Campaign, which also took out an ad in the Boston Phoenix newspaper last June advertising the letter, when M was in Boston doing some sort of cult program. Maharaji, of course, has not bothered to respond.

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Date: Wed, Dec 20, 2000 at 00:45:34 (GMT)
From: Gregg
Email: None
To: Mr. Free
Subject: don't use that word cult lightly
Message:
After you've posted here for a while, you may begin to notice that we all have a life apart from this website. We have families and jobs and obsessions and friends and ideas and gardens and etc. etc. etc.

Many of us, you will find, even have spiritual practices.

But this site is dedicated to the promulgation of knowledge, if I may use that word, about Maharaji and his cult, so, of course, one might conclude that we exes are 'negative'.

Nope.

Gregg the happy (sorry, Anth)

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Date: Wed, Dec 20, 2000 at 00:54:41 (GMT)
From: Mr. Free
Email: None
To: Gregg
Subject: don't use that word cult lightly
Message:
That is good. Sometimes hearing all this ya gotta wonder who's screwed up the most. Keep posting the truth.
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Date: Tues, Dec 19, 2000 at 22:17:27 (GMT)
From: jondon
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: Be sure and watch network morning shows
Message:
this week. You may see something you don't want to miss.
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Date: Wed, Dec 20, 2000 at 05:08:33 (GMT)
From: Bazza
Email: None
To: jondon
Subject: and the Press
Message:
I got interviewed by a reporter from the Miami Herald today. Can't say any more right now. May come out Thursday/Friday.
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Date: Wed, Dec 20, 2000 at 00:59:29 (GMT)
From: The great thing is
Email: None
To: jondon
Subject: Everyone here is different.
Message:
The ex-premies have gone on to all kinds of things in their lives. Some are religious, some are athiests. Some like sports, some don't. Some have families and some are single. Politically, there seems to be a bent towards the Democrat/Green side of things, but we have a few Republicans, too. Judging from the posts, they got just as involved in our recent election debacle as anybody else. You will also find that there is quite a bit of variation of what they think about the cult they used to belong to. Some think meditation is helpful, some don't do it. Most think Maharaji is a fraud and are glad to see him exposed for what he really is.

Like the rest of the world, the opinions and feelings are quite diverse. It's kind of great, really.

Here is a website you might want to check out:

www.openlettertomaharaji.org

This letter was put together by a group called The Maharaji Responsbility Campaign, which also took out an ad in the Boston Phoenix newspaper last June advertising the letter, when M was in Boston doing some sort of cult program. Maharaji, of course, has not bothered to respond.

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Date: Wed, Dec 20, 2000 at 00:46:35 (GMT)
From: Gregg
Email: None
To: jondon
Subject: What? Please inform. (nt)
Message:
x
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Date: Wed, Dec 20, 2000 at 02:26:10 (GMT)
From: jondon
Email: None
To: Gregg
Subject: Bryant Gumbel, morning news show...
Message:
Check out the faces in the crowd.
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Date: Wed, Dec 20, 2000 at 15:37:12 (GMT)
From: Susan
Email: None
To: jondon
Subject: Bryant Gumbel, is which network?
Message:
I thought he was NBC but that is Katie Couric and Matt Lauer...
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Date: Thurs, Dec 21, 2000 at 00:35:50 (GMT)
From: Cynthia
Email: None
To: Susan
Subject: Bryant Gumbel is CBS...he used to be on NBC...
Message:
But when.....?
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Date: Tues, Dec 19, 2000 at 17:34:49 (GMT)
From: Joe
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: More Questions for Michael Dettmers
Message:
Hey, Michael. Happy Holidays. Thanks again for confirming what so many of us had heard about Maharaji and his abusive (and pathetic) lifestyle.

I was wondering about what you said recently about Maharaji having sexual affairs with premie women and his ongoing mistress of many years, Monica Lewis. I just had a few questions.

1. Did Maharaji ever consider divorcing Marolyn or she him? If Marolyn considered Maharaji to be the Perfect Master (which she SAID she did at numerous programs in front of thousands of people, in which she swooned about him, worshipped him, and apparently considered him perfect), how could she even be in a position to complain about him? Didn't she pretty much have to accept him the way he was, (vulgarity, alcohol, drugs and promescuity included), because he was beyond being judged like an ordinary person or spouse? What was the nature of their marital problems?

2. Did Maharaji ever talk about why he married Marolyn at such a young age? Was immigration a big issue? Was independence from his family? Did he regret marrying so young?

[Again, it is completely up to you as to how much of this you want to talk about. In an ordinary situation, a couple's marital problems are nobody's business, but, again, Maharaji frequently used the image of his perfect family as part of his apparent scheme to have us believe in his perfection, being both the Perfect Master, as well as the Perfect father, spouse and family man. To be fair, Marolyn seemed quite willing to spin that yarn as well, both of which is hypocritical if that wasn't what was actually going on.]

3. When Maharaji began having you and later others arrange for him to have sexual liaisons with premie women, where did they go? Obviously the residence, right under Marolyn's nose, wouldn't do. Did they go to a hotel or something? Were these affairs going on both in Miami and Malibu? Have you heard that Maharaji has set up a home for Monica near Los Angeles?

4. Are you aware of any premie women turning Maharaji down when he propositioned them?

5. When Maharaji suggested to you that he wanted to have sex with women not his wife, you said you thought it might be a good idea (as long as it wasn't with premies) because it might help Maharaji get in touch with his humanity. I think I can actually kind of understand what you mean by that, but can you explain further? I assume you are saying that, in a way, Maharaji was trapped in his role, and the role of the Perfect Master was a kind of barrier between him and his own humanity. Perhaps intimate relationships with other people might open him up to getting outside the role. Is that what you meant?

6. I assume Maharaji's affairs became common knowledge among the residence staff and probably the PAM community. Is that true? Were you aware of anyone being confronted by Maharaji's behavior and questioning their involvement with him as a result? As you know, I am aware of one person for which that was the case.

7. You said that Maharaji made it clear that it was not okay for Marolyn to have affairs outside the marriage, but it was okay for him to do so. How did he talk about that? Did he see that as a double standard, or that it would be improper for her to do that because of his high standing, or was he just coming from a sexist viewpoint?

8. Did Maharaji ever tell his off-color jokes in front of his kids, or in front of large groups of people? Also, it appears that Maharaji's stage persona was very different from the way he was other times. Did Maharaji ever talk about the difference? Like did he think that he was at certain times the Perfect Master, and certain times Prem Pal Singh Rawat?

Thanks, Michael.

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Date: Wed, Dec 20, 2000 at 02:14:15 (GMT)
From: Michael Dettmers
Email: dettmers@gylanix.com
To: Joe
Subject: More Questions for Michael Dettmers
Message:
Joe,

When I became Maharaji’s personal business manager, he made it clear to me from the very beginning that I was to act at all times with utmost discretion, to maintain a very low profile, and to conduct his business affairs on a “need to know basis” only. If Marolyn was to be included in certain discussions, he would let me know, and he would define the boundaries of those discussions. Consequently, I was somewhat of an enigma, even around his residence. I did not engage in very many conversations with Marolyn and I had little contact with his children. I focused on my responsibilities and I kept my nose out of Maharaji's family matters. I say this so that you may understand why I am not the best person to answer some of the questions you have posed. I also agree with those who expressed the view that Marolyn and her children do not warrant the same kind of scrutiny as does Maharaji and I will bear that in mind as I respond to some but not all of your questions.

1. Did Maharaji ever consider divorcing Marolyn or she him?

I do not know if Marolyn ever broached the subject of divorce with Maharaji but I do know that Maharaji would never consider divorcing Marolyn because he was obsessed with the Eastern concern for “saving face.” When Maharaji got married he did so without his mother’s consent even though he was still a minor. In fact, she did not even know of the marriage until after it took place. It was anathema to her that any of her sons marry outside of the Hindu tradition. To his mother, marrying a Westerner was tantamount to sacrilege. Thus, Maharaji’s marriage to Marolyn was the decisive act that forced the split up of the so called “holy family” and cleared the way for Maharaji to take full control of his mission, and that was the main reason he got married. He did not get married to obtain US citizenship. He would have gotten that without marrying Marolyn because he already had US permanent residence status and was eligible for citizenship in 1979. His marriage to Marolyn simply accelerated the process by a couple of years.

I’m sure that Maharaji was in love with Marolyn but that, in itself, was not necessarily a compelling reason to get married, especially as he was only 16 years old at the time. Before they were married, they carried on a secret love affair. I discovered this when Maharaji and his mother were touring in Canada in 1974. I had been instructed to use the ashrams for their accommodation because that is what his mother wanted. Upon arriving at the Toronto ashram, however, Maharaji asked me if I could arrange for him and his mother to stay at a hotel. Within an hour, they were comfortably ensconced in the Presidential suite of Toronto’s newest hotel. His mother was pissed, but he was delighted. He further requested that I make similar arrangements in the other cities. It was during that tour that I became x-rated so that I could also make arrangements for Marolyn who was secretly following the tour.

Several years later, when Raja Ji and his wife Claudia were contemplating a divorce, Maharaji did everything he could to prevent it from taking place, including the threat of financial ruin for Claudia and her children. Maharaji did not really care about the pain or difficulties that Raja Ji and Claudia were experiencing, or even about the potential adverse consequences of a divorce on their two children. Maharaji only cared about saving face. He did not want to give his mother and all of the Indian premies who had left him when the family split up to say “I told you so.” It would be worse, as far as Maharaji was concerned, if he and Marolyn got a divorce. That is why I say that Maharaji would never contemplate divorcing Marolyn, at least while his mother was alive, which she was when I was still involved.

2. When Maharaji began having you and later others arrange for him to have sexual liaisons with premie women, where did they go? Are you aware of any premie women turning Maharaji down when he propositioned them?

During the time I handled such matters, Maharaji’s liaisons were conducted in hotels while he was on tour. In my limited involvement, no one turned him down, just like no premie declined to be x-rated when I presented the possibility. I don’t know any of the details of his relationship with Monica including whether or not he has set her up in a home or apartment.

3. When Maharaji suggested to you that he wanted to have sex with women not his wife, you said you thought it might be a good idea (as long as it wasn't with premies) because it might help Maharaji get in touch with his humanity. I think I can actually kind of understand what you mean by that, but can you explain further?

By 1985, I once again reverted to a belief that I had previously come to in 1976, namely that Maharaji would be more successful at spreading knowledge if he attempted to relate to others in a more natural and human manner. I was convinced that the perfect master – devotee paradigm was a huge barrier for most people to overcome in order to receive knowledge. I wanted him to get down off the throne and engage in authentic dialogue with people. I realized that he was indoctrinated at a very early age to embody the Perfect Master role as the truth, but I, nevertheless, hoped against hope that he would open up and re-assess his life. I based my hope on my observation that he was in obvious pain, what with his marriage difficulties, his alcoholism, not to mention his failing mission. In felt the time was right for Maharaji to make the shift. The conference at San Yisidro was part of my effort to bring it about.

When Maharaji told me that he wanted to experience other women, I thought it might be another opportunity to help him connect with his own humanity. In the end, as must be obvious to everyone, none of my efforts worked. He’s still playing the same sick game. He thinks he’s the lord and believes the whole world should humbly surrender and kiss his ass. Some premies agree as evidenced by his recent program in India. I heard from one of the attendees that he gave darshan to all of the Western premies who came early to do service. How does that jibe with your FAQ’s Élan Vital?

4. I assume Maharaji's affairs became common knowledge among the residence staff and probably the PAM community. Is that true?

When I was around Maharaji, his affairs were not common knowledge, even among the residence staff.

5. You said that Maharaji made it clear that it was not okay for Marolyn to have affairs outside the marriage, but it was okay for him to do so. How did he talk about that?

He didn’t really talk about it. He simply assumed it on the basis that he’s the master and everyone is supposed to do as he says, not as he does. Any rational person, however, would see his behavior for what it is – hypocritical.

6. Did Maharaji ever tell his off-color jokes in front of his kids, or in front of large groups of people?

I don’t know about telling off-color jokes in front of the kids. I remember an instructor conference in Texas in 1986 when he had a joke contest where participants got up on the stage and were judged on who told the best off-color joke.

7. Also, it appears that Maharaji's stage persona was very different from the way he was other times. Did Maharaji ever talk about the difference? Like did he think that he was at certain times the Perfect Master, and certain times Prem Pal Singh Rawat?

No.

Michael.

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Date: Thurs, Dec 21, 2000 at 02:17:50 (GMT)
From: Turner
Email: None
To: Michael Dettmers
Subject: More Questions for Michael Dettmers
Message:
This line of discussion is ludicrous. To think that because Maharaji is the “perfect master” means he must conform to certain morals accepted by the religious center shows how little understanding you have about human nature and the perfect master.

You will recall in stories of other masters how they went through personal ups and downs and where similarly judged for it. Jesus when he spent time in the desert supposedly went through a period of grave self-doubt. Was he stressed out? You bet he was! He contemplated jumping off a cliff for crying out loud. He was judged for hanging with prostitutes. When he was on the cross he cried out to this God he was supposed to be the son of, asking why he had deserted him. God knows what the man was really like to his x-rated followers. Everything Jesus did made the religious center mentality’s head spin…so they killed him, as is typical of stupid humans when someone doesn’t conform to their myopic set of values. And of course, one of his infamous closest followers bears a striking resemblance to you Michael.

Have you ever been out for lunch with co-workers and really wanted to have a glass of wine but didn’t because no one else did? Why is that? It is because you don’t want to be judged. And if you were the first to order and ordered a glass of wine and then nobody did, you might wonder if the others think, “maybe this guy has a drinking problem”. Or if you’re at someone’s house and they pass you a joint and you decline, don’t they wonder the same thing? “Is he judging me for smoking pot?”

What did you want from your perfect master? A tea-toteling prude who would judge his followers for having the guts to try things outside of the religious center. If Maharaji had been such a pious soul, as you criticize him today for not being, how would you have felt when doing the things you did when you were young, or even today for that matter? You would have felt judged by him that’s how. You would have felt guilty every time you strayed from the pious path. But instead he didn’t judge you. He allowed you to be yourself. He showed you that none of that stuff mattered. And I can’t count how many times Maharaji made everything right again in my life by simply saying, “leave it all behind for a moment and just listen to satsang”.

I for one have strayed from the ten commandments too many times to count. And I don’t take kindly to pompous know-it-alls passing judgment on me. Many of my most profound lessons in life have been a result of taking steps beyond the walls of “I shouldn’t”. To confine Maharaji to the limits of experience within those walls is equally pompous. I hope you all judge yourself just as harshly as you do him.

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Date: Thurs, Dec 21, 2000 at 19:38:32 (GMT)
From: Hal
Email: None
To: Turner
Subject: Big investment made in Mr rawat eh ?
Message:
Hi Turner,

A lot of your life , your precious time has gone into this nollij and master trip. I spent decades in there too. You are making a valiant attempt to shore up your defences and deny the obvious.

This man is an out and out fraud. He's no more or less than anyone else. He's richer than most of us but not in spirit as he once claimed.

Nollij works though and that must mean that he's a true master? Not so! Not one iota! Meditation techniques the same or similar to Maha's are effective for many people regardless of which creed they follow. I follow no creed but if I sit quietly - th a sound and feeling is there for me. I can sit down and start my meditation with an affirmation such as ' Maharaji you are a fat greasy fraud and I fucking despise you. You are so sickening I hope You have to face real shit in your life.....'

and guess what ? The stillness and peace and the same stuff is still there. In fact my experience is that when I do sit quietly now that it's so much better without my connection to Rawat.

There is a lot of investment of time which is difficult to let go of but I assure you that it's absolutely fine to discard that fake.

Life goes on and gets better and more interesting. less restriction, more freedom, more realness ,etc...

You'll find it a great relief when you finally let go , which you will one day , even if it's at the point of death and you cry out to him for help and comfort and realise that he ain't there, that it's just you with yourself and fatso doesn't even know you , couldnt give a fuck and conned you for most of your life.

Hope you get out of the cult soon though because it gets tougher the longer you leave it.

Hal

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Date: Thurs, Dec 21, 2000 at 19:10:59 (GMT)
From: Pauline Premie
Email: None
To: Turner
Subject: I know people will think your post was from me....
Message:
But it isn't, although you do have a style a lot like mine. Your post was very synchronized with Maharaji's divine plan.

Just the other day, when I was reading that Maharaji was fucking his devotees, I was thinking about how we are in no position to judge. How can we? We are pond scum and pond scum is the lowest of the low, unable to pass judgment on anyone, let alone the living Perfect Master.

I'm sure that if Maharaji wasn't taking drugs, getting drunk, and taking sexual advantage of his devotees, he wouldn't be relatable to the vast majority of people in this confused world, and then they wouldn't be able to be open to that love, that truth, that peace and that experience, which is his gift.

I know that when I was looking for a master, the first thing I looked for was someone who was having sex with his female devotees, and who also drank a lot, and took a lot of drugs. Ostentatious wealth and conspicuous consumption, including owning multi-million-dollar yachts, were attributes that were high on my list, too. I'm sure that's true of most other people, too, and that's why so many people have chosen Maharaji as their master. As the Elan Vital FAQs say, he is an enigma, but the number of people he has 'touched' (in many different ways, both inside and out) is remarkable.

Yes, Maharaji is just like Jesus in so many ways, except he has more money. I'm sure Jesus was having sex with everyone in sight, too, since he had prostitutes for friends. I bet all Maharaji's friends are prostitutes too, at least in spirit.

I'm also sure Buddha had a mistress and smoked pot, too. How would he have gotten a gut like that, if he hadn't toked a few and then ate bags of M&Ms? We just have to get rid of our concepts about what a Perfect Master is supposed to be like. Everything Maharaji does is just for us to blow our concepts so we can be more open to him and his love. If you have concepts about him, like that he isn't supposed to be a rich, adulterous alcoholic, how can you be open to that experience?

Please, Turner, submit your post to the 'wit and wisdom' section of the Enjoyinglife website. I'm sure every premie will immediately relate to what you are saying.

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Date: Thurs, Dec 21, 2000 at 13:25:55 (GMT)
From: Nigel
Email: None
To: Turner
Subject: He'd look cute on a cross...
Message:
...on the trinket stall. 50 dollars for the silver pendant. Can you imagine, Turner? Loincloth and crown of thorns skilfully engraved.

What planet do you come from?

This line of discussion is ludicrous. To think that because Maharaji is the “perfect master” means he must conform to certain morals accepted by the religious center shows how little understanding you have about human nature and the perfect master.

Who are the 'religous center', Turner? I'm an unrepentant atheist and I can see your Master is a vain, narcissistic twat with no morals whatsoever. Why can't you see that? It's so obvious.

You will recall in stories of other masters how they went through personal ups and downs and where similarly judged for it. Jesus when he spent time in the desert supposedly went through a period of grave self-doubt. Was he stressed out? You bet he was! He contemplated jumping off a cliff for crying out loud. He was judged for hanging with prostitutes. When he was on the cross he cried out to this God he was supposed to be the son of, asking why he had deserted him. God knows what the man was really like to his x-rated followers. Everything Jesus did made the religious center mentality’s head spin…so they killed him, as is typical of stupid humans when someone doesn’t conform to their myopic set of values. And of course, one of his infamous closest followers bears a striking resemblance to you Michael.

Michael Dettmers as Judas?!!! You get funnier by the minute, Turner. Who the fuck are you? Are you an official EV spokesman/woman? God, you sound REALLY desperate, today.

Have you ever been out for lunch with co-workers and really wanted to have a glass of wine but didn’t because no one else did? Why is that? It is because you don’t want to be judged. And if you were the first to order and ordered a glass of wine and then nobody did, you might wonder if the others think, “maybe this guy has a drinking problem”. Or if you’re at someone’s house and they pass you a joint and you decline, don’t they wonder the same thing? “Is he judging me for smoking pot?”

Your social inhibitions are your own problem, Turner - and it sounds like you have a few. But deciding whether or not to partake of a spliff is not the same thing as calling yourself 'the highest incarnation of God' then getting devotees to procure women for your personal amusement and pleasure.

I assume you never got the invite.

What did you want from your perfect master? A tea-toteling prude who would judge his followers for having the guts to try things outside of the religious center. If Maharaji had been such a pious soul, as you criticize him today for not being, how would you have felt when doing the things you did when you were young, or even today for that matter? You would have felt judged by him that’s how. You would have felt guilty every time you strayed from the pious path. But instead he didn’t judge you. He allowed you to be yourself. He showed you that none of that stuff mattered. And I can’t count how many times Maharaji made everything right again in my life by simply saying, “leave it all behind for a moment and just listen to satsang”.

I for one have strayed from the ten commandments too many times to count. And I don’t take kindly to pompous know-it-alls passing judgment on me. Many of my most profound lessons in life have been a result of taking steps beyond the walls of “I shouldn’t”. To confine Maharaji to the limits of experience within those walls is equally pompous. I hope you all judge yourself just as harshly as you do him.

For fuck's sake, Turner, there is NO SUCH THING AS A PERFECT MASTER - though there are hundreds who want you to believe that there is. Until your unburden yourself from that sick delusion I fear you will still be seeing beauty in the sad form of Prem Rawat until your dying day.

Your problem, pal.

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Date: Thurs, Dec 21, 2000 at 13:25:52 (GMT)
From: AJW
Email: None
To: Turner
Subject: All this Perfect Master stuff
Message:
...is a complete load of Bollocks Turner. You didn't learn it in school did you?

It's like believing in Thor, or Valhalla, or Pixies and Fairies- It has no grounding in reality. It's human mythology.

Time to grow up.

Happy Christmas

Anth who still believes in Santa Claus (It's the physical embodiment of a higher power you see Turner- It's the spirit of 'giving' and we celebrate it in a ritual act. Anybody from any religion can join in. It's an inner experience. You can't really describe it. You have to have it for yourself. I tell you what, fill in this bankers order to help to pay for a new kitchen, and I'll let you have a direct experience of Christmas for yourself.)

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Date: Thurs, Dec 21, 2000 at 10:49:26 (GMT)
From: JTF
Email: None
To: Turner
Subject: the point is, Turner...
Message:
that it is not a moral judgment. This evidence against rawat points to a very dissatisfied 'man'. If this knowledge is actually so wonderful why does rawat need to seek satisfaction through drugs and women. He did claim to have realized it, didn't he? Now, of course, you can tell us the master can talk the talk but not walk the walk. But, if the K is so great, why would he want to experience less than the best?
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Date: Thurs, Dec 21, 2000 at 20:29:04 (GMT)
From: Turner
Email: None
To: JTF
Subject: the point is...
Message:
The point is not whether or not Maharaji is satisfied. Neither you, me or Michael Dettmers can comment on another person’s satisfaction. Sure, we can make our interpretations as seen through our own personality hued glasses, but it’s a crap-shoot. The question that I ask is whether I am satisfied. Knowledge has satisfied the deepest longings of me - and many other people - and I can assure you I haven’t been conned in the process.

How can I say that? Because Maharaji speaks to the heart, and Knowledge works in such a way that no interpretation is required. You are either fulfilled or not. That’s the bottom line. I could care less what he does with his day to day life. It’s irrelevant…really. Just like I don’t care about what you do. The advantage I apparently have over you is I don’t have a clue what a perfect master should do with his day to day life, and you apparently do. But I do know when my heart is full. Nobody can fool me about that! And that is something I have no way of proving to you, so I won’t even try.

Best of the season to you.

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Date: Fri, Dec 22, 2000 at 11:53:08 (GMT)
From: JTF
Email: None
To: Turner
Subject: the point is...sadly enough...
Message:
that this type of answer is nothing more than Cult 101, Maharaji is Maharaji, etc. All of us hear would have responded that way while we were still trapped. Who is the source of these ideas you expressed, including the famous 'my experience' line. Just recently, rawat was quoted as saying something like, 'let's face it, K works.' Some people are more suggestive than others. rawat's implanted suggestion here is that if it doesn't work, you the practitioner must be deficient.

Next time you hear him speak, just listen how he subtly sneaks in that which the group must assume to be true. Watch how he subtly uses head nods to elicit agreement from the audience.

Maybe you have a 'real' experience...maybe you have been told you have one. One thing is for sure-people in other cults report very similar experiences as you describe, using much the same words. Doesn't this stir your curiosity to examine these other cults on an objective basis-reading both the pro and con viewpoints?

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Date: Thurs, Dec 21, 2000 at 22:19:20 (GMT)
From: Susan
Email: None
To: Turner
Subject: lets all be glad Turner's heart is full
Message:
because THAT is all that matters.

As long as Turner's heart is full he has no right nor any responsibility to deal with why the Jagdeo cover up, what happened with Fakiranand, this poor guy on the bike and the coverup, why does Rawat abuse alchohol, why did he drive drunk with his kids in the car, why does he pretend the seventies did not happen, why he blames those around him for all his mistakes, whether he is in a cult or not.

Turner, your heart is full, that is all that matters. If offered the cool aid I guess you would be first in line.

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Date: Thurs, Dec 21, 2000 at 23:01:08 (GMT)
From: Turner
Email: None
To: Susan
Subject: Turner's the only one glad Turner's heart is full
Message:
You are right Susan, I don’t care about all those things. Now, why do you care so much? Who are you to pass such judgment on him? Look, I know your story and I know you’ve been wronged. So does that give you the moral mandate to pass that kind judgment? Have you lead such a pure life that you are a worthy representative of such lofty moral heights?

Do you know how barren life is without a full heart? I’ll tell you…it’s not worth getting up for. Do you think the world could use more people with a full heart? The good Maharaji has spread in this world by filling hearts far out weighs representation of the few malcontents who post here.

Now I ask you again, why do you care so much? I mean before your knee jerks and you claim to be making the world a safer place, what’s the real reason? As I see it the fuller the hearts of the people on planet earth, the safer place the world will be. That just makes logical sense to me. So?

Another thing, comparing Maharaji to Jim Jones is disingenuous and an infantile cheap shot. He doesn’t remotely reflect the character of that kind of sociopath.

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Date: Fri, Dec 22, 2000 at 12:35:46 (GMT)
From: janet of vence
Email: None
To: Turner
Subject: full hearts make the world safer???????
Message:
oh yeah--in their hearts,what were those children feeling while jagdeo was Forcing them to rub and fondle his genitals? my experience tells me they felt sick.what were those blonde women's hearts full of when GMJ fucked em and forgot em? my experience tells me they felt anguish, rejection,dirty, used,discarded, raped...oh yeah,real SAFE feelings, there, turner.ya think MJ was feeling a heart overbrimming with fufillment while his palace was engulfed in flames in the Malibu Fires? not to hear him tell it, he wasn't.people whose hearts are brimming with fulfillment ALWAYS become alcoholics, addicted to smoking,drive drunk with their kids in the car down treacherous canyon roads, throw away airplanes with gold toilets that their beloveds spent years making for them, and have their business managers procure young women for them to fuck when they get tired of their wives. and that overbrimming, fulfilled heart, so satisfied and at peace with life, would just naturally kill a bicyclist in his car and then flee in another one. for the same serene reasons he would post rings upon rings of security forces around his every move and place armed guards around his appearances. why, it just follows so clearly.and a heart at such infinite, deep peace and fulfillment, would just have no interest in getting more and more money or rolexes or G5's or cognac or sex partners or gold toilets or maserati's or yachts...no, such a profoundly contented heart would find it only right to abuse and terrorize and frighten everyone closest to it with cutting humiliation, degradation, fear and blame. is'nt that the language of the heart? why, hummingbirds would just float right down to sit on his shoulder and kiss his big soft cheek, wouldnt they? i mean, when you get what you want, why would you give a shit about anybody else? right?
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Date: Thurs, Dec 21, 2000 at 23:58:16 (GMT)
From: Mickey the Pharisee
Email: None
To: Turner
Subject: Define your terms.
Message:
Turner, when I was studying theology (Oh my! What a terrible person I must be!) we were told to define our terms in every discussion. So, what do you mean by the term 'a full heart?' The other day a woman asked me to pray for her because 'my heart is so full.' Do you think she meant the same thing as you? Do you think she had your guru's knowlege? Oh, by the way, when Jesus said 'My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?' he was quoting Psalm 22. Do you think he was crying out to God, or do you think he was reciting a Psalm for comfort (a rather standard practice, even then)? How do you define the term 'Perfect Master?' I define it as 'a term used to create a spiritual lineage which does not exist.' I think that the idea that Jesus was a Perfect Master is just a way to give legitimacy to Hindu cults in the West. By legitimacy, I mean that, for Westerners, if Jesus is part of the package, it must be alright!
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Date: Thurs, Dec 21, 2000 at 23:51:26 (GMT)
From: Susan
Email: None
To: Turner
Subject: why do I care so much
Message:
I think because I really believed in it all at one time. Also, I am pretty much a bleeding heart type, I care about all sorts of things.

You seem to imply that our hearts must be empty because yours is so full. That's just BS. Being out of the cult for years I can tell you there is no monopoly on satisfaction, appreciaition of life and full hearts being in Rawat's realm. Really, all he does is claim credit for the MIRACLE that life is anyway.

I in no way think the comparison to Jim Jones is a cheap shot. The similarities are eerie. Jim Jones had his own 'x rating', similar trouble with women, similar paranoia, the cult members justified their actions the same way you justify yours. The difference is the Kool Aid. I hope that it never comes to something so hideous. But the truth is, we both know there are folks who would drink it for their Lord.

I have not lead a pure life, and I have made plenty of big mistakes. But I never claimed to be the superior power in person, no one signed their trust fund over to me, no one had sex with me thinking they were boffing God incarnate, no one joined my ashrams, thousands of people have never lined up to kiss my feet. No one has a shrine to me in their home.

BS Turner of course a person who is in Rawat's position is open to judgement. He brought it all on himself.

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Date: Thurs, Dec 21, 2000 at 03:55:49 (GMT)
From: Roger eDrek
Email: drek@oz.net
To: Turner
Subject: And the real point being that Maharaji is Jesus?
Message:
Whoa! I've made a big mistake here, haven't I?

shows how little understanding you have about human nature and the perfect master

Go ahead! Don't be bashful. Take it to the streets. Let the world know that the Christ, the Saviour is here. Many are called, but few are choosen and you, Turner, have paid your dues via Direct Debit and you've got a guaranteed seat on the next rocket ship to heaven where you will frolick with your Master, your Lord for eternity and beyond all while being bathed in pure white light brighter than 10,000 suns. Oh, yeah! Oh, yeah! Praise the almighty!

And those who judge and misunderstand the Lord, the true Son of God, will be punished. Tey will suffer greatly under the angry wrath of God!

All that burning in hell and bad stuff like being born again and again as some low life creature who always has the misfortune of being eaten up on the first foray out of the hole in the ground?

Go ahead, Premie-Ji, tell us about your Master, your God. He wants everyone to know before it's too late, before the final judgement, before the end times.

Yes,u and the 144,000 others gathered at the Houston Astrodome will be saved and returned to the mothership that is swooping in behind comet Kahoutek (remember K.O. Houston Texas?)

Ok, Mr. Turner, I'm going over the top here and things are quite different now. Instead of the entire Holy Family to love and worship we've just got the Holy Brother, Raja Ji - The Word.

So, Mr. Turner, I hope that I am not beyond redemption and I hope that you don't give up on me, sir! I need discipline. I need direction.

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Date: Thurs, Dec 21, 2000 at 21:57:03 (GMT)
From: sucha
Email: None
To: Roger eDrek
Subject: Rog,you forgot to bring the hairshirt and whips(nt
Message:
nt
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Date: Thurs, Dec 21, 2000 at 19:01:45 (GMT)
From: AJW
Email: None
To: Roger eDrek
Subject: LOL
Message:
Turner brings out the best in us. What a twat.

Have a good Pagan blow out Roger.

Anth in transit

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Date: Thurs, Dec 21, 2000 at 02:52:58 (GMT)
From: gErRy
Email: None
To: Turner
Subject: Yeah Mike, you drunken, pot smokin' Judas...
Message:
It's almost fucking Mithrasmas for chrissake. Will ya lighten up a little?

Turner ax's 'who do you want fer perfect master?' Well I woulda sed gina lollabrigida but that would show my age. Hey maybe she's still got some a that ole black magic, eh Turner boy?

Btw Turner, ever see jimmy stewart in 'harvey?' You kinda remind me of him. (Elwood P. Dowd that is, not the pookah.)

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Date: Thurs, Dec 21, 2000 at 02:33:23 (GMT)
From: Cynthia
Email: None
To: Turner
Subject: More Questions for Michael Dettmers..Maharaji???..
Message:
Or is it one of your lawyers? You sound quite upset? Still comparing Maharaji to Jesus eh?

I thought he just gave you agya not to talk about anything so why you shootin' your big 'ole mouth here at Michael Dettmers. Don't you know anything?

Are you Maharaji? No, I don't think Maharaji can write that well, you're a lawyer with Maharaji over your shoulder at the computer. Am I close?

Well, then, Fuck Off Maharaji! HA HA GOT YA!

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Date: Wed, Dec 20, 2000 at 04:38:06 (GMT)
From: Joe
Email: None
To: Michael Dettmers
Subject: Thanks. And one clarification....
Message:
Aside from the information about Maharaji and his personal problems, I find what you are saying very interesting just from a historical perspective. What was really going on?

You said the main reason Maharaji got married to Marolyn when he did, at such a young age of 16, was really because it 'cleared the way form him to take full control of the mission.'

Are you saying that Maharaji got married to Marolyn because it would force the break with his Mother and hence essentially give him control of the mission, at least in the West? It sounds kind of Machiavellian. Do you think Maharaji was actually that crafty and politically maneuvering at the age of 16?

By the way, who made you 'x-rated?'

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Date: Wed, Dec 20, 2000 at 12:08:02 (GMT)
From: Michael Dettmers
Email: dettmers@gylanix.com
To: Joe
Subject: Thanks. And one clarification....
Message:
Joe,

Yes to your first question.

I won't mention the person's name without their permission.

Michael

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Date: Wed, Dec 20, 2000 at 19:11:52 (GMT)
From: Joe
Email: None
To: Michael Dettmers
Subject: Very Interesting and Also.
Message:
In retrospect, I could never understand, like you said, WHY, Maharaji felt compelled to get married was he was still basically a kid. It just never made any sense. That's why I thought maybe immigration had something to do with it.

But what you are saying is that at age 16, and really 15 I guess when it started, Maharaji was calculated and quite willing to infuriate, and basically dump his Mother, Shri Hans' wife, so he could get his hands on the mission THEN, as opposed to say when he turned 21. Amazing. I guess power was his thing, right?

I had always thought of Maharaji as being an egomaniac, but also that he was uneducated, and actually kind of bumbling when it came to strategy, planning etc., and that things were only prevented from falling apart because of people like you whom he had working for him, and, more importantly, because he had no accountability whatsoever to anyone, had thousands of followers who thought he was perfect and incapable of error and hence he couldn't lose his 'customers,' and had essentially a huge reservoir of money from donations, as well as free, slave labor to do whatever he wanted no matter how unrealistic and stupid (the Boeing 707 debacle being one of the most notorious example).

It is pretty hard NOT to be successful when you have those things going for you. [Not that Maharaji didn't accomplish that anyway due to his own, destructive, behavior.]

Regarding the Initiators. A number of them could be quite cruel to people, sadistic almost, and those of us in the ashrams were sometimes the victims of them. Others were a bit derranged and sometimes said bizarre things, completely off the wall, but because of their positions, they were sometimes given the benefit of the doubt. [I could give you examples.] Was Maharaji aware of this? Did he get any feedback?

Another question. I wrote a number of letters to Maharaji around the time I was still living in the ashram, but not long before leaving the cult, around 1982 and 1983, talking about the hell I was in and asking for his help, and I never got a reply, either directly or indirectly. Do you know, did Maharaji ever bother to read any of those letters? Did he have anyone else read them?

I know that when I was at IHQ, Sally Reeder had the 'service' of answering Maharaji's mail. But this would have been after that.

Regarding Raja Ji and Claudia. You said that when they wanted to get a divorce, Maharaji was upset about it, because of the way it would look in India and to his mother (who, I guess, would have been able to say 'I told you so'). You also said that Maharaji threatened Claudia if she went through with the divorce.

How did Maharaji threaten Claudia? Obviously, he wasn't successful because they did get divorced. What actually happened there, and do you know whatever happened to Claudia? Was she cut off financially? What about the kids? [I recall there was Navlata, but I don't recall if there was another one.] I understand from what some people said that Claudia was living in Miami, doing interior design in South Beach, and her name is now Claudia Garcia as she has remarried. I also heard that Claudia commenced a lawsuit against Maharaji. Do you know anything about that?

I have also heard that Raja Ji subsequently developed a cocaine habit, and was complaining to people that Maharaji wasn't giving him enough money, seeing as he didn't appear to have any marketable skills himself, although I'm sure there must have been rich premies willing to hire him in some gratuitous position, just to get in favor with the Lord. Do you know anything about that? What was Maharaji's relationship with Raja Ji when you were around? He always seemed like kind of a third wheel with no real function except to 'be' Maharaji's brother.

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Date: Wed, Dec 20, 2000 at 19:20:10 (GMT)
From: Joe
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: To Michael another historical question
Message:
Michael,

After Maharaji married Marolyn and the split in the holy family took place, I understood that Mata Ji and Bal Bagwahn (sp?) Ji and others, went back to India and essentially conficated DLM there. I recall in 1975, Maharaji went to India with lawyers and tried to get the mission back.

I also recall that when Maharaji came back from India, that everyone said what a wonderful tour it was, and that although there had been protests against Maharaji, everything was successful.

Sophia Collier says in her book that this was a big lie. That, actually, Maharaji lost the lawsuit (lost Prem Negar and most of DLM in India), and that he was almost run out of the country, and had to hold up in some ratty motel, hiding out, but that Maharaji had directed all the Westerners who were with him on the trip to lie about it when they returned.

Do you know what actually happened?

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Date: Thurs, Dec 21, 2000 at 03:26:30 (GMT)
From: Thanks again for your
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: Honesty:)--nt
Message:
srth
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Date: Wed, Dec 20, 2000 at 00:03:34 (GMT)
From: wethead
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: None of your business
Message:
NT
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Date: Wed, Dec 20, 2000 at 00:09:31 (GMT)
From: (Senator) Hillary Clinton
Email: None
To: wethead
Subject: Touched a nerve have they?
Message:
Try to remember holy name (technique number three) and say to yourself 100 times:

Maharaji might not be a philandering, lustful, deceitful liar;
Maharaji might not be a philandering, lustful, deceiftul liar....

You might feel better for awhile. I've tried it will Bill and it does work.

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Date: Wed, Dec 20, 2000 at 00:29:05 (GMT)
From: wethead
Email: None
To: (Senator) Hillary Clinton
Subject: Touched a nerve have they?
Message:
It's just the hypocrisy of it all. M is what he is. Why drag Marolyn into the mud and slander slander slander. Think of M's kids. Factual posts exposing fraud good for all. This snooping into everyone elses bedroom getting to personal...no tact, I don't know. Maybe I'd crack his head open with a baragon for being such an asshole.
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Date: Wed, Dec 20, 2000 at 18:19:18 (GMT)
From: GAC
Email: None
To: wethead
Subject: What's the difference between Marolyn and Jagdeo?
Message:
I mean pedophiles are pedophiles.

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Date: Wed, Dec 20, 2000 at 00:56:23 (GMT)
From: Sir Dave
Email: None
To: wethead
Subject: I agree
Message:
Maharaji's fair game for any sort of scandal, if only to show what he's really like so that people don't have any delusions about his own self appointed mastership.

However, other people in his vicinity have never claimed to be God or a supreme master and therefore don't warrant the attention.

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Date: Thurs, Dec 21, 2000 at 15:55:53 (GMT)
From: Way
Email: None
To: Sir Dave
Subject: Marilyn Rawat
Message:
It is difficult to assess Marilyn. Only she knows what is in her heart and mind. And only people close to her could offer some insight.

But from what we do know, the most postive thing that could possibly be said about her is that she is deluded. If we give her every benefit of the doubt that she is being true to her own perception, then we can just criticize her for having a fucked-up perception, which she shares with a lot of cult members.

Personally, I cannot believe the best about her. I cannot believe that she doesn't fully realize that her husband is a fraud who is leading people into delusion. She must be a coward and a hypocrite. I don't know how she lives with herself. Perhaps she is so afraid to face the truth that she has gone insane.

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Date: Wed, Dec 20, 2000 at 03:02:06 (GMT)
From: Salam
Email: None
To: Sir Dave
Subject: Do not agree
Message:
Marylon was a goodess, remember? PAMs are the suckers that help him, they all involved.
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Date: Wed, Dec 20, 2000 at 13:28:00 (GMT)
From: SB
Email: None
To: Salam
Subject: She was MOM...
Message:
and many of us left our REAL mothers behind because of DAD's directions.

THEY DESERVE EVERY LITTLE THEY CAN GET: WHEN ARE THEY RETIRING?

ONCE MORE: lard sucks!

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Date: Wed, Dec 20, 2000 at 13:55:54 (GMT)
From: Salam
Email: salam_au@iprimus.com.au
To: SB
Subject: Well there you go SB
Message:
I am not the only one that is saying that. It is ok to pretend to be civilised and say that we should not blame anyone else except groomji, but the reality of life is different, he gave thounds the rap about how wonderful and great m and k where. She had a truck load of tissue paper waiting for her everywhere she went, and in the end she got demoted. I will forgive her if she comes out and says I am sorry for missleading you, until then she is an instrument of m.

and I agree Rawat sucks a lot

Salam

p.s. have you tried e-maling me lately?

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Date: Thurs, Dec 21, 2000 at 05:55:26 (GMT)
From: Sbe shure it's evidence
Email: None
To: Salam
Subject: I still have those 70's cassettes abot DAD and MOM
Message:
It isn't just my memory, or an alucination.

Civilized my ass. NOBODY can change the facts. Many times I was criticized here by ex-premies and premies for getting so angry at Lard and his troop soon after exiting the cult, for insulting him so much, for hating him so much. We are not 'suppose' to hate, you know... like I created the capacity I have to hate in me. WHAT ABOUT THAT SOME PEOPLE DO DESERVE THE HATE THEY RECEIVE? :0 Should I be proud to have belonged to the biggest cult ever? Lard in person, WHOW.

How in the hell can I forgive him and forget about what he inculcated in my head for 25 years???!!! How can IIIIII do that? Me. I am not saying that everybody should hate him, but that I do because of how he ruined my life. I deserve the best therapy ever and its pay shouldn't have to come from my pocket. The best is yet to come. lol

Yes, living well Katie, others, is the best revenge, nevertheless, as Selene said to me, reminded me, people like me who were involved and bought his trip so seriously like some of us did after realizing the scam were left with very few tools to cope with reality. I have no compassion for him; I hope he has a slow painful death, honestly. No joke.

He haven't retracted himself. Marolyn? Same kind. I want to hear him letting his devotees go free. I want him to come foward. I want him to take responsability for ALL his words but I get an idea by now that he wont do it. He is a coward and we know it. We are going to have to do it for him.

2001 looks really promising. My agenda is very busy because I have to make a living, family, have some forgotten fun, etc. but this subject more than obsession as it has been called here (acussations?) will become in some point my favorite pastime: I am writting a book. In the right time; when I am ready, of course. I have so, so much stuff to organize that it will take a huge amount of work, but of course,I 'love' him so much that I feel like giving him a hand.

Good for those that got out easy, that have the right support to come out whole. I didn't. I left a year a go and some moments that I went through I don't wish it for other, except rauat. Many I know didn't left whole either but pretty wonded. People I love, premies are still suffering because of the limited capacity to reason properly to know what they are doing with their lives. Many have died, I almost did. There is no way that I am taking EVER full responsability. NO WAY!!

I was only 18 when all began. No fricking way.

I have been insulted and disrespected in this forum simply because I am not like this person (ex)or the other, because I couldn't cope well, or because I don't have some type of degree, i.e. not enough education, that being the cause of my disrespect for rat. Like education and manners could ameliorate what I feel. No way. They think of themselves as smarter? There is not one day that goes by that I don't think about it, and I have no idea if it will ever go away...

What some people seem to forget when their mouth gets full criticizing some of us is that each person's circumstance is unique and for all those that want to sell their justification why rauat deserves a brake: Fine. You do it. I don't have to. My personality is such that I need to make something of all this. Is not about revenge. It's about JUSTICE It's about others regaining their freedom, and so much more. An example: My son is totally confused because his father is a premie; is he ever going to be ok? I studied Psychology enough to know, it seems that the years of pain regarding the ass cult are not over for me. I was thrown a ball that I had no intention to play with and is All my fault? Liquid bullshit.

You are not a loving person I heard many times here. Elaine, darling. What type of logic people use sometimes is beyond me. Read blind spots.

I am a bad, boring, uneducated person. Like I am suppose to give explanations about what is it that I do in my free time. I have many 'parts' and one very important got very, very factup, ok. I'll say it: FUCKED UP You know well that my life is far from boring. It is that particular sting that is there, bothering, occupaying an space that shouldn't. That is my problem with rauat. He had no right to do what he did to my head, soul and body. NONE. That is my motivation. SOMETHING NEEDS TO HAPPEN. Somebody eventually will listen and when one does the rest will follow. Even if it takes another 25 years expossing him, I'll do it. In honor of the ones that died. My mother's pain, my sister and brothers, my son, my lost friends and most of all, for how much more beautiful MY life could have been if I never met him.

You whinners, superior beans, LOL, follow the arrow. I wasn't talking to you and beside, this to me is not a club, as many seem to take this forum for. This is our opportunity to say whatever we want to dirty rat. Some are waiting for him to get more powerful lawyers to close this site... Maybe then fighting rat can become more important... Talking is cheap. Unity? What is the meaning of that word?

I told you that my e-mail to you bounced, remember?

Love,

s

PS: Selene has my e-mail address.

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Date: Thurs, Dec 21, 2000 at 12:40:45 (GMT)
From: Salam
Email: None
To: Sbe shure it's evidence
Subject: WOW, what a girl
Message:
Man I can feel the heat comming out of my monitor. Take it easy or it is gonna melt.

I think you have the right to be angry, and if you hate him that is good. I hate him. I learned it. I do not have to suck up to anyone when I say it. a Lot of people talk about hate as if it is a sin. I do not think so, an emotion is an emotion, does not matter what it is, fi one loves all the time then one is missing something. O like to find somebody saying he does not hate yet.

I do not understand why your mail is bouncing, you certain they are not made of rubber.

fuck you rawat for spoiling sb day. There. Happy?

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Date: Fri, Dec 22, 2000 at 17:10:12 (GMT)
From: gerry
Email: gkl1@techline.com
To: sb
Subject: Powerful post, SB
Message:
Very well written and expressed. I wish you would post more. We could all learn a lot from you. (Well, except Elaine. She's brain dead.)
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Date: Sat, Dec 23, 2000 at 05:44:04 (GMT)
From: sb
Email: None
To: gerry
Subject: hahahahaha
Message:
I stopped promising because I am taking care of personal matters, but I'm still around and it will happen. I hang around this forum because I need it to keep remebering that the voices I hear in my head (not literally, but lard's words still pop up from nowhere sometimes. Twenty five wasted, negative, extra damaging yers. What can I say? I am even remembering how to communicate again...

Yeah, the dead is dead. Of course, if they want to they CAN live again, but Elaine, I don't know.

I am investigating the TAO latelly. I had to find something because otherwise I was going to began running until I got to Malibu and smack him silly. Read: Too angry.

Thanks for the compliment about my writting but first things first. I am healing myself first so my support to this site can be more effective. I know that I have SOMETHING to tell.

Love you.

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Date: Wed, Dec 20, 2000 at 12:19:42 (GMT)
From: Michael Dettmers
Email: dettmers@gylanix.com
To: Salam
Subject: Do not agree
Message:
Salam,

In Maharaji's world, a person, including Marolyn, is whatever Maharaji declares them to be. And, he was always quick to remind those around him, he could reverse a previous declaration whenever he wanted to. Remember the mahatmas who were subsequently declared 'manmots.' That is why I am so angry about the Jagdeo situation because in Maharaji's sick world he is the only real power who could and should have dealt with the situation.

In Marolyn's case, she was Durga Ji and then one day she wasn't. His game - he makes the rules and he changes them whenever he wants. And, of course, he exempts himself from any of the rules he makes for others. After all, using his own self-referencing illogic 'Maharaji is Maharaji.'

Michael

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Date: Sat, Dec 23, 2000 at 02:43:36 (GMT)
From: Owl
Email: None
To: Michael Dettmers
Subject: Do not agree/*Qusetion*
Message:
My question is what is your take on (M) going through ------> so many names John, Paul, on and on and on ......................
Sat Guru Dev Maharaj Ji ......... -> Sat Guru Maharaj Ji ->
Guru Maharaj Ji -> Maharaj Ji -> Maharaji ->
and so on.

O' and then there is his presumptuousness at referencing himself as -> Saint Ji Maharaj, remember that one?

So your take on this? ...............?


{B.T.W.} Are you, going to let M get away with that death in India, (thing?)?

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Date: Wed, Dec 20, 2000 at 13:21:23 (GMT)
From: Salam
Email: None
To: Michael Dettmers
Subject: We made him that way
Message:
But we can also revoke it. You, I and a lot of people around here decided that he is not to have control over us. Marylon, the PAM and other leaches around him are too afraid to move. It is like being in the same job for thirty years. The last thing you would want to do is give it up and do something new. So as long as those that constitute the inner sanctum blind themselves to what is around them, I will continue to throw rotten eggs and tomatos at them.

Why are the sticking with him? you have already shown in previous post that he is incapable to accepting change neither crticisim. He does not want to religate responsibilities to others, but then he cowers and blame everyone else for it. Well if those everyone else had any guts in them then they should break the crystal jar and walk away,

Salam

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Date: Wed, Dec 20, 2000 at 13:51:25 (GMT)
From: JohnT
Email: None
To: Salam
Subject: Well said, Salam!
Message:
... although it is true that in the final analysis there is only one Cult leader and everyone else is a victim, I feel that thinking along those lines can go too far. Individuals involved with Rawat also have their responsibilities.

After all, some victims are more eager to embrace their role and spread the delusion than others. Some have gained a great deal; have a lot to lose; and will fight vigourously to defend their Lord, and their position within his sad little world.

Yes, PAMs are victims. But they are also adults, with adult rights and responsibilities. Among these, I should say, is a responsibility to be honest with themselves and not to harm others.

One cannot do that if one is firmly lodged in Rawat's orbit, of course. But we are giving every assistance to people still involved in the cult to get to the truth.

It is their responsibility, their call, how to deal with that.

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Date: Wed, Dec 20, 2000 at 16:41:46 (GMT)
From: Cynthia
Email: None
To: JohnT
Subject: Well said, Salam and JohnT!
Message:
Hi,

This has been an interesting thread. I agree that Marolyn and the PAMs are adults and have (or should have) consciences about their roles in this scam. Yet, they are brainwashed too, or are they? I can't put myself in their place, however, because I've never been that close to m. However, when I was somewhat close to him every day, he frightened me.

I wonder if Marolyn is double bound by the brainwashing, plus the obvious: she's got battered woman's syndrome. She's a classic case, but with a huge twist: her husband is the perfect master, lord, whatever, to her, A Cult Leader!!, and he has placed her and the kids in a position of being completely dependent upon him for everything. He's a drunk, apparently a belligerent one, verbally and emotionally abusive, which makes his volitility very frightening. Michael's story about M tirad in the restaurant and driving home drunk because he was jealous of Marolyn's ''supposed'' attention to another man, reminds me of O.J. Simpson, and my own dad.

Only Marolyn knows what M has said to her and done to have such ultimate control, I'd bet he's terrified her a lot, and in private, too. Marolyn always seemed to me to be a good mother, and wife, yet I also saw a bit of spitfire in her too. Her gushiness on stage was part of the bit act, but I also saw sincerity and strength in her, too. Now I wonder about her.

Do I think she ought to leave him? Not my business, but yes. She doesn't even know, I'd bet, that she has that choice. Sad.

Cynthia

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Date: Wed, Dec 20, 2000 at 19:27:21 (GMT)
From: Joy
Email: joy52@earthlink.net
To: Cynthia
Subject: Cynthia, Could You e-mail me? (nt) OT
Message:
Hi Cynthia,

I was wondering if you could e-mail me privately off-forum, I believe we have a friend in common from Miami, and would be interested in discussing this Battered Woman Syndrome as it relates to Marolyn (and us as being from verbally abusive families) in a more private way.

Hope to hear from you!
Love,
Joy

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Date: Wed, Dec 20, 2000 at 14:18:04 (GMT)
From: Salam
Email: None
To: JohnT
Subject: I don't doubt for a sec. that it is a business
Message:
It looks that there are two types of PAMs, your standard run of the mill PAMs, the ones that run around kissing his ass, and the other type that have a financial stake in Rawat. Personally, I do not know who is who in m's world, I have been away for too long. But from reading F5 and the rest of the site, this is the conclusion that I made. The ass kissing PAM are dispensable. The deep pocket ones are his 'mates', they scaratch his back and he scratches theirs'.

But as you say an adult is accountable to what he does. There is never too late to come to relize that.

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Date: Tues, Dec 19, 2000 at 18:33:18 (GMT)
From: Can you tell the story
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: of Mira Bai in Miami?-nt
Message:
sfgh
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Date: Tues, Dec 19, 2000 at 18:13:24 (GMT)
From: la-ex
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: More Questions for Michael Dettmers
Message:
Michael-in addition to Joe's questions, I would add a few more...

It has been alleged here that a few years ago Monica wanted to blow the whole cover and leave maharaji because she was upset about something (I wonder what?)....supposedly she was talked out of it by some PAMS (I wonder if this coincided with maharaji's 'quitting' about that time-supposedly he 'quit' briefly, because the problems were too big for him, but then 're-hired' himself a few days later)

One question I have is - was there ever any 'hush money' or perks given out to the women who might talk? Or other people who knew about scandalous things?
Have any of them talked?
Do you think any of them would talk now, under anonymous names?

Also, Pat Halley has written that fakiranand was instructed by the dlm president to kill him. That would have been mischler.
Do you think he would have ordered such a thing?
If he did, wouldn't it have only been through direct orders from m?
I don't remember Bob as being the irrational type to order such a thing, or having the audacity to do such a thing unless m wanted it to happen.
Also, Pat Halley says he was paid about $10,000 for damages.
Is that accurate, and how was that handled? How was a possibly damaging court case avoided?

I've got a few more, but that's it for now..

La-ex

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Date: Wed, Dec 20, 2000 at 15:10:09 (GMT)
From: Michael Dettmers
Email: dettmers@gylanix.com
To: la-ex
Subject: My response
Message:
la-ex:

As I said in my post to Joe above, I don't know any of the details about Maharaji's relationship with Monica other than that their realtionship is a fact. Most of the stuff to which you refer, if it is true, took place after I left. No hush money was ever paid during my limited involvement, and I have not had any contact with any of the women for well over a decade.

I was the National Organizer in Canada during the Pat Halley - Fakiranand episode so I have no idea what conversations took place and with whom. Based on my subsequent close working relationship with Bob Mishler, I do not believe for a moment that he knew of, or had anything to do with, the attack on Mr. Halley. I'm sure, however, that he must have played a role in cleaning up the mess that others(?) created.

Michael

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Date: Tues, Dec 19, 2000 at 19:46:50 (GMT)
From: Tim G
Email: timgitti@indigo.ie
To: Experienced Exs
Subject: Questions For Experienced
Message:
I'm a newish visitor here and much enjoying it.I left the cult around 1980 so need a bit of clarification. What is a PAM and what does it entail? What does Ex-rated mean? Are we talking about those swarthy Mafia types we would see in the front seats, reputedly worth millions or recently relieved of their millions by You Know Who.Some of them carried handbags for a while too. I can't wait to sit down one rainy night [most nights here in Ireland] and write my 'Journey'. Blessings to all the exs. The cult looks like it has a fatal faultline opening up or is that wishful thinking?
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Date: Tues, Dec 19, 2000 at 22:24:53 (GMT)
From: Bin Liner
Email: None
To: Tim G
Subject: Read the whole site .........
Message:

......don't be lazy , & fuck the phone bill ; you'll get the idea pretty quick .

pax

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Date: Tues, Dec 19, 2000 at 21:56:32 (GMT)
From: sucha
Email: None
To: Tim G
Subject: Answers: r.e. Questions For Experienced
Message:
G'day Tim:

Bingo! You are astute. Yes, those were/are the guys.

PAM: person around maharaji

X-rated: don't ask, and you better not tell (about the booze, drugs, blondies, slush funds, etc.), unless you want the hammer of Thor to come crashing down on your skull

Not wishful thinking. Yes, crack opening up is Santji Faultline -- first, rumblings: then 9.5 Richter earthquake imminent. Why? Perhaps the Almighty is carving new asshole for Santji.

Simple -- Karma of the greedy guru.

Peace,

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