Forum V: Archive
Compiled: Sat, Jan 06, 2001 at 16:11:01 (GMT)
From: Dec 23, 2000 To: Jan 04, 2001 Page: 5 Of: 5


Patrick -:- Could you answer these questions please Michael? -:- Mon, Dec 25, 2000 at 22:44:17 (GMT)
__ Michael Dettmers -:- Christmas Tidings -:- Tues, Dec 26, 2000 at 03:08:31 (GMT)
__ __ Suchabananda -:- Mithrasmas Tidings -:- Tues, Dec 26, 2000 at 06:59:13 (GMT)
__ __ __ sucha -:- Q:time,date,road,people,car,brake/swerve,report?nt -:- Tues, Dec 26, 2000 at 21:02:39 (GMT)
__ Patrick -:- Could you answer these questions please Maharaji? -:- Tues, Dec 26, 2000 at 01:30:06 (GMT)
__ __ A question -:- Megalomania or stupidity? -:- Tues, Dec 26, 2000 at 05:29:53 (GMT)
__ __ __ Roger eDrek -:- I was bad once - really bad and I... -:- Wed, Dec 27, 2000 at 01:42:47 (GMT)
__ __ __ Jerry -:- I'd be careful if I were you -:- Tues, Dec 26, 2000 at 20:41:01 (GMT)
__ __ __ Scott T. -:- Megalomania or stupidity? -:- Tues, Dec 26, 2000 at 17:09:55 (GMT)
__ __ __ Patrick -:- Megalomania or stupidity? -:- Tues, Dec 26, 2000 at 12:30:42 (GMT)
__ __ __ Gordon Showcase -:- Megalomania or stupidity? -:- Tues, Dec 26, 2000 at 11:55:13 (GMT)
__ __ __ JohnT -:- Stinking thinking or stupidity? -:- Tues, Dec 26, 2000 at 10:07:23 (GMT)
__ __ __ Hal -:- Is that you Bjorn ? nt -:- Tues, Dec 26, 2000 at 09:43:13 (GMT)
__ __ __ Salam -:- Get off your Ivory tower and come down to earth. -:- Tues, Dec 26, 2000 at 07:49:49 (GMT)
__ __ __ Stonor -:- stupidity - your comments? -:- Tues, Dec 26, 2000 at 07:09:26 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Jerry -:- stupidity - your comments? -:- Tues, Dec 26, 2000 at 20:53:15 (GMT)
__ __ __ Bazza -:- Megalomania or stupidity? -:- Tues, Dec 26, 2000 at 06:12:20 (GMT)
__ __ Bazza -:- Excellent questions -:- Tues, Dec 26, 2000 at 05:07:43 (GMT)
__ __ __ Steve Quint -:- Excellent questions -:- Tues, Dec 26, 2000 at 08:08:49 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Bazza -:- Interesting idea -:- Tues, Dec 26, 2000 at 19:12:36 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Patrick -:- Interesting idea -:- Tues, Dec 26, 2000 at 20:52:44 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Bazza -:- Dont worry! -:- Tues, Dec 26, 2000 at 21:09:06 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ JohnT -:- Here's the link -:- Tues, Dec 26, 2000 at 23:46:39 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Marianne -:- M not responding to letters -:- Wed, Dec 27, 2000 at 04:07:51 (GMT)

Salam -:- I wonder what Rawat wished for X-MAS? -:- Mon, Dec 25, 2000 at 22:43:49 (GMT)
__ ham -:- That he could pull none premie blondes, -:- Mon, Dec 25, 2000 at 22:51:37 (GMT)
__ __ jondon -:- That nobody is watching the morning tv (nt) -:- Tues, Dec 26, 2000 at 14:41:10 (GMT)

Jim -:- Oh yeah, THIS is funny -:- Mon, Dec 25, 2000 at 20:25:27 (GMT)
__ dv -:- Oh Christ Ron, You're STILL a premie? nt -:- Sat, Dec 30, 2000 at 00:24:56 (GMT)
__ ham -:- You might well be right, -:- Mon, Dec 25, 2000 at 22:55:25 (GMT)

An Ex -:- Prem Pal Singh Rawat and friends -:- Mon, Dec 25, 2000 at 16:11:59 (GMT)
__ Aussi Ji -:- Prem Pal Singh Rawat and friends -:- Tues, Dec 26, 2000 at 11:39:20 (GMT)
__ JHB -:- Prem Pal Singh Rawat and friends -:- Mon, Dec 25, 2000 at 22:31:33 (GMT)
__ __ Bin Liner -:- Goodwill to you John,that rang a bell(nt) -:- Tues, Dec 26, 2000 at 23:15:26 (GMT)

Anonymous poster - MD's -:- latest deposition reposted - re. 'hit and run' -:- Mon, Dec 25, 2000 at 13:55:03 (GMT)
__ JHB -:- Shame -:- Mon, Dec 25, 2000 at 22:19:05 (GMT)
__ Michael Dettmers -:- latest deposition reposted - re. 'hit and run' -:- Mon, Dec 25, 2000 at 14:35:19 (GMT)
__ __ Scott T. -:- 'hit and run' -:- Tues, Dec 26, 2000 at 04:40:56 (GMT)
__ __ Forum Elves -:- taken care of -:- Mon, Dec 25, 2000 at 16:01:53 (GMT)
__ __ __ shp -:- It was grammatically correct due to the ' after... -:- Mon, Dec 25, 2000 at 16:10:55 (GMT)
__ __ shp -:- Happy Holidays, Michael -:- Mon, Dec 25, 2000 at 14:59:33 (GMT)
__ Rick -:- I like you more all the time, Michael (nt) -:- Mon, Dec 25, 2000 at 14:34:07 (GMT)

statute of no limitations -:- What Christmas means to me -:- Mon, Dec 25, 2000 at 11:09:27 (GMT)
__ Cynthia -:- What Christmas means to me -:- Wed, Dec 27, 2000 at 23:13:16 (GMT)
__ Jim -:- Don't forget the presents (nt) -:- Mon, Dec 25, 2000 at 20:27:23 (GMT)
__ __ Steve Quint -:- You Forgot Mine -:- Tues, Dec 26, 2000 at 08:26:09 (GMT)
__ __ __ JohnT -:- What more do you want -:- Tues, Dec 26, 2000 at 10:47:04 (GMT)
__ Steve Quint -:- What Christmas means to me -:- Mon, Dec 25, 2000 at 12:09:05 (GMT)
__ __ Stonor -:- Thanks Steve. -:- Mon, Dec 25, 2000 at 17:20:22 (GMT)
__ __ __ gerry -:- Ho ho ho Merry Mithrasmas !!! -:- Mon, Dec 25, 2000 at 19:06:08 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ gErRy -:- Finally, my life has a purpoise, ah porpuse, a per -:- Tues, Dec 26, 2000 at 16:39:19 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ JohnT -:- thanks for clearing that up, gErRy ... -:- Tues, Dec 26, 2000 at 18:47:18 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Jim -:- That's actually quite fascinating -:- Mon, Dec 25, 2000 at 20:39:46 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Salam -:- Knock knock, where have you been? -:- Mon, Dec 25, 2000 at 22:31:03 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Jim -:- Guess what -- Jesus never even knew Santa Claus! -:- Mon, Dec 25, 2000 at 20:36:55 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ ham -:- Air/Nightmares on wax makes a raver? -:- Tues, Dec 26, 2000 at 21:05:51 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Jim -:- Ha! You fell for my trap, Ham -- nya nya nya! -:- Wed, Dec 27, 2000 at 02:47:18 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Steve Quint -:- I Looked Up Breakbeat In My Scrabble Dictionary -:- Wed, Dec 27, 2000 at 19:11:03 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ ham -:- Luv ya, ya bugger -:- Wed, Dec 27, 2000 at 06:37:08 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Stonor -:- 'Ho ho ho' - that's what I've been missing!! -:- Mon, Dec 25, 2000 at 20:06:21 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Salam -:- Wasn't santa a black fellow? -:- Mon, Dec 25, 2000 at 22:39:04 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Stonor -:- Black Peter? -:- Tues, Dec 26, 2000 at 05:05:02 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Salam -:- I can understand that -:- Tues, Dec 26, 2000 at 05:45:36 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Stonor -:- Thanks, but a couple more comments ... -:- Tues, Dec 26, 2000 at 07:04:35 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Mickey the Pharisee -:- Wasn't santa a black fellow? -:- Tues, Dec 26, 2000 at 04:24:33 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ janet -:- astrologically/astronomically, may 20 fits... -:- Tues, Dec 26, 2000 at 09:53:15 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ JohnT -:- aaaarrrrggggghhhhhh! No! Don't say that! Please!!! -:- Tues, Dec 26, 2000 at 10:39:13 (GMT)

No statute of limitations -:- M is responsibe for what he did in India, RE: DEAD -:- Mon, Dec 25, 2000 at 08:12:04 (GMT)
__ Jim -:- Funny, I thought you WERE a supreme ct judge -:- Mon, Dec 25, 2000 at 20:06:49 (GMT)
__ __ No statute of limitations -:- The sound of one hand clapping -:- Tues, Dec 26, 2000 at 02:41:10 (GMT)
__ __ __ Roger eDrek -:- Jim, NSOL has got you - you lose! -:- Tues, Dec 26, 2000 at 23:26:31 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Jim -:- I can't read your post, Rog -- it's too painful -:- Wed, Dec 27, 2000 at 02:48:54 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Roger eDrek -:- Actually, I'm in Camarillo, California now -:- Wed, Dec 27, 2000 at 04:00:40 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Roger eDrek -:- And get this! -:- Wed, Dec 27, 2000 at 05:40:41 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ TED Farkel -:- Mr. eDrek, you could get 'born again'.... -:- Thurs, Dec 28, 2000 at 03:34:11 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ ham -:- That's too good an opportunity to miss Roger -:- Wed, Dec 27, 2000 at 16:04:49 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Roger eDrek -:- Infiltrate the cult! It's a suicide mission! -:- Wed, Dec 27, 2000 at 19:47:00 (GMT)
__ shp -:- There's terminology and then there's meaning -:- Mon, Dec 25, 2000 at 14:53:19 (GMT)
__ __ hamzen -:- There's always another possibility shp -:- Thurs, Dec 28, 2000 at 15:47:17 (GMT)
__ __ __ shp -:- There's always another possibility shp -:- Fri, Dec 29, 2000 at 01:12:46 (GMT)
__ __ No statute of limitations -:- There's meaning and then there's meaning -:- Mon, Dec 25, 2000 at 23:27:01 (GMT)
__ No statute of limitations -:- M is res.....Addendum.....and an aside, for Stoner -:- Mon, Dec 25, 2000 at 09:07:26 (GMT)
__ __ Stonor -:- Thanks for your response,No statute of limitations -:- Mon, Dec 25, 2000 at 17:23:17 (GMT)
__ __ __ Oliver -:- And isn't Sandy's post wonderful? -:- Mon, Dec 25, 2000 at 19:46:11 (GMT)
__ __ Oliver -:- Who is this turkey? (nt) -:- Mon, Dec 25, 2000 at 13:49:52 (GMT)

Kelly -:- Happy Christmas if you can -:- Sun, Dec 24, 2000 at 19:49:18 (GMT)
__ Selene -:- thanks Kelly and happy holidays to all -:- Sun, Dec 24, 2000 at 22:53:18 (GMT)
__ __ SB -:- Yes it is -:- Mon, Dec 25, 2000 at 01:08:09 (GMT)
__ Sir Dave -:- Happy Christmas if you can -:- Sun, Dec 24, 2000 at 22:42:01 (GMT)
__ hal -:- Lovely message - happy X to you too nt -:- Sun, Dec 24, 2000 at 20:47:55 (GMT)
__ __ happy X -:- Dettmers stories really are freeing-nt -:- Sun, Dec 24, 2000 at 20:52:18 (GMT)
__ __ __ very merry exness -:- very happy exmaster to all nt -:- Sun, Dec 24, 2000 at 21:02:57 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Helen -:- happy christmas to all -:- Mon, Dec 25, 2000 at 04:55:12 (GMT)

cq -:- Does the Maha send Xmas cards? -:- Sun, Dec 24, 2000 at 18:00:58 (GMT)
__ cq -:- what he'd REALLY like to say to us ... -:- Sun, Dec 24, 2000 at 18:03:59 (GMT)
__ __ Sir Dave -:- What I'd like to say is this -:- Sun, Dec 24, 2000 at 21:25:24 (GMT)
__ __ __ cq -:- Yo, and to you Sir Dave (burp)... -:- Wed, Dec 27, 2000 at 16:22:11 (GMT)
__ __ __ Steve Quint -:- Don't Confuse Respect With Political Correctness -:- Mon, Dec 25, 2000 at 05:20:22 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ gerry -:- Yeah Dave... -:- Mon, Dec 25, 2000 at 19:12:36 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Sir Dave -:- The origin of Christmas -:- Mon, Dec 25, 2000 at 18:20:19 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Sir Dave -:- And here's the history link -:- Mon, Dec 25, 2000 at 18:28:53 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Stonor -:- Thanks for that link Sir Dave! -:- Mon, Dec 25, 2000 at 20:09:38 (GMT)
__ __ __ Bazza -:- I'm trying, Sir Dave /OT -:- Mon, Dec 25, 2000 at 02:06:43 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Stonor -:- Merry Christmas to the Brits! -:- Mon, Dec 25, 2000 at 04:19:13 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Bazza -:- Merry Christmas to the Yanks /OT -:- Mon, Dec 25, 2000 at 04:52:01 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Stonor -:- I'm NOT a 'yank'!! /OT -:- Mon, Dec 25, 2000 at 05:29:36 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Salam -:- I'm NOT a 'yank'!! /OT -:- Mon, Dec 25, 2000 at 12:01:36 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Stonor -:- Isn't that the old world order .... (OT) -:- Mon, Dec 25, 2000 at 17:30:49 (GMT)

kap -:- friendship ranch up dates -:- Sun, Dec 24, 2000 at 13:02:59 (GMT)
__ Scott T. -:- friendship ranch up dates -:- Wed, Dec 27, 2000 at 15:57:10 (GMT)
__ Jim -:- Why not just a little euthanasia? -:- Mon, Dec 25, 2000 at 21:28:38 (GMT)
__ Sir Dave -:- friendship ranch up dates -:- Sun, Dec 24, 2000 at 22:38:48 (GMT)
__ The warden -:- Our retirement home -:- Sun, Dec 24, 2000 at 20:57:02 (GMT)
__ __ Roger eDrek -:- Warden, is there going to be FREE LOVE? -:- Tues, Dec 26, 2000 at 20:31:27 (GMT)
__ kelly -:- Oh for god's sake forget it! nt -:- Sun, Dec 24, 2000 at 19:25:21 (GMT)
__ Salam -:- friendship ranch up dates -:- Sun, Dec 24, 2000 at 15:17:11 (GMT)
__ __ ex hippy ex -:- The trouble with communities.... -:- Sun, Dec 24, 2000 at 22:58:08 (GMT)
__ __ __ Salam -:- The trouble with communities.... -:- Mon, Dec 25, 2000 at 13:25:38 (GMT)

JTF -:- Damn it, why must rawat always win? -:- Sun, Dec 24, 2000 at 11:48:48 (GMT)
__ Salam -:- Great post. Love it.....nt -:- Sun, Dec 24, 2000 at 15:21:12 (GMT)
__ __ Kelly -:- Yeah , but he keeps between the lines, nt -:- Sun, Dec 24, 2000 at 20:47:27 (GMT)
__ __ __ Salam -:- How do you mean?.......... nt -:- Mon, Dec 25, 2000 at 13:16:04 (GMT)
__ Steve Quint -:- Rawat Big Winner - Oh Yeah -:- Sun, Dec 24, 2000 at 14:51:15 (GMT)
__ mamboji -:- Witty : who created it NT -:- Sun, Dec 24, 2000 at 14:47:13 (GMT)

Bazza -:- You can run, but you can't hide -:- Sun, Dec 24, 2000 at 01:10:11 (GMT)
__ Salam -:- You can run, but you can't hide -:- Sun, Dec 24, 2000 at 16:53:44 (GMT)

Salam -:- The International Smart Card Processing Team -:- Sun, Dec 24, 2000 at 00:40:49 (GMT)
__ Roger eDrek -:- Smart Card = Access Control system -:- Sun, Dec 24, 2000 at 20:04:11 (GMT)
__ __ suchabanana -:- Is this,like,mark of the beast? US falling off map -:- Tues, Dec 26, 2000 at 20:46:24 (GMT)
__ __ __ Roger eDrek -:- gun in your pocket or are you just happy to see me -:- Wed, Dec 27, 2000 at 01:10:54 (GMT)
__ __ Roger eDrek -:- SmartCard Application - attach passport type photo -:- Sun, Dec 24, 2000 at 21:35:35 (GMT)
__ __ Kelly -:- I was that soldier -:- Sun, Dec 24, 2000 at 21:05:44 (GMT)
__ __ Bazza -:- Smart Card = Access Control system -:- Sun, Dec 24, 2000 at 20:25:54 (GMT)
__ __ Steve Quint -:- Smart Card = Access Control system -:- Sun, Dec 24, 2000 at 20:18:46 (GMT)
__ __ __ Roger eDrek -:- Smart Card = Access Control system -:- Sun, Dec 24, 2000 at 20:48:14 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Stonor -:- Solution? Santa Killer (OT) -:- Mon, Dec 25, 2000 at 05:39:26 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Roger eDrek -:- Oops, didn't mean to go off topic -:- Sun, Dec 24, 2000 at 20:56:48 (GMT)
__ JTF -:- These numbers reflect (approx)cult population (nt) -:- Sun, Dec 24, 2000 at 09:00:02 (GMT)
__ __ Salam -:- after 30 years of hard yakka, you have 10,000 -:- Sun, Dec 24, 2000 at 10:26:09 (GMT)
__ __ __ JTF -:- 10,000 was the number I came up with too -:- Sun, Dec 24, 2000 at 10:36:05 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Salam -:- It not a bad money spinner venture -:- Sun, Dec 24, 2000 at 15:34:21 (GMT)
__ SB -:- Bussiness, baby -:- Sun, Dec 24, 2000 at 02:14:32 (GMT)
__ __ Steve Quint -:- He Didn't Kill One Man -:- Sun, Dec 24, 2000 at 15:10:02 (GMT)
__ __ __ SB -:- You are correct. -:- Sun, Dec 24, 2000 at 20:50:21 (GMT)
__ __ Salam -:- Bussiness, baby -:- Sun, Dec 24, 2000 at 10:49:58 (GMT)

Patrick -:- re. Maharaji's responsibility in this accident. -:- Sat, Dec 23, 2000 at 22:49:54 (GMT)
__ Swami Suchabananda -:- Merry m. bananas -:- Mon, Dec 25, 2000 at 01:01:26 (GMT)
__ Swami suchabananda -:- merry m. bananas -:- Mon, Dec 25, 2000 at 00:55:23 (GMT)
__ Kelly -:- M is culpable, no question nt -:- Sun, Dec 24, 2000 at 21:47:40 (GMT)
__ suchabanana -:- If you slip on banana skin,don't blame banana! (nt -:- Sun, Dec 24, 2000 at 20:37:24 (GMT)
__ __ Stonor -:- If you get hit by a car don't blame the driver? -:- Thurs, Dec 28, 2000 at 18:27:12 (GMT)
__ Mark Appleman -:- re. Maharaji's responsibility in this accident. -:- Sun, Dec 24, 2000 at 17:04:19 (GMT)
__ __ Patrick -:- re. Maharaji's responsibility in this accident. -:- Mon, Dec 25, 2000 at 23:09:07 (GMT)
__ __ __ Mark -:- re. Maharaji's responsibility in this accident. -:- Wed, Dec 27, 2000 at 00:21:52 (GMT)
__ Bin Liner -:- Don't understand and are ungrateful.... -:- Sun, Dec 24, 2000 at 00:32:21 (GMT)


Date: Mon, Dec 25, 2000 at 22:44:17 (GMT)
From: Patrick
Email: None
To: Michael Dettmers
Subject: Could you answer these questions please Michael?
Message:
In the early 80’s, following a festival at the ashram outside of New Delhi, India, Maharaji and his motorcade were traveling from the ashram to the airport to board the 707 for America. Maharaji was driving the lead car and I was a passenger in the front seat of the car directly behind his. All of a sudden, I saw a man riding a bicycle pull out in front of Maharaji’s car.
Seconds later the man went flying several yards into the ditch. He died instantly. Randy Prouty, who was traveling as security in Maharaji’s vehicle, frantically ran to the car I was in and instructed all of us to get out of the car and find a place in the other vehicles that were part of the motorcade. Maharaji and the people in his car quickly transferred to the car I was in, and we all sped to the airport.
Sampurnanand stayed behind to deal with the situation which he did by having his houseboy take the wrap. In the investigation that ensued, the houseboy stating that he was the driver of the vehicle who hit the unfortunate cyclist. That explanation, plus a heft cash settlement to the victim’s family, enabled Maharaji to quickly put the incident behind him so that he could get on with the business of bringing peace, love and joy to the rest of humanity.

I would like to ask you some questions regarding these allegations of yours, Michael.

1) Did Maharaji speak later to you or anyone else you know about this, if so what did he say?

2) What was his reaction to the death of this cyclist?

4) Do you know what happened to Sampurnanand's 'houseboy' in terms of retribution for his confessed part in this?

5) Was this matter discussed amongst 'Premies around Maharaji' at all? You were there and presumably the subject must have come up.

6) What were Maharaji and those premies involved so afraid would actually happen if Maharaji had confessed that he was driving - that was so worth this risky course of action?

I have never been to India and do not have any real idea of the way the law works there. Prior to his leaving the scene of the accident I would have supposed that Maharaji might have been judged merely to have been in a most unfortunate and regrettable accident which wasn't his fault.
He would have clearly had a number of witnesses that would have been prepared to say that it was basically the cyclists' fault.

Presumably Maharaji and his cohorts thought that the scandal of his involvement in the accident would have been so damaging that it merited lying to avoid such an outcome.

Surely they would have known that lying about it in this manner would constitute an even worse scandal should someone decide to blow the whistle - as you have done?

Incidentally, had this incident occurred in England, I think that the law would have certainly held him partly responsible and he would have incurred some sort of punitive measure for driving without due caution, however negligent the actions of the cyclist. I am prepared to accept though that in India things are handled in a different manner.

7) What do you think we can expect Elan Vital's version of events to be, if they ever offer one?
(In other words, what do you predict will be the sort of arguments for Maharaji's defence - that we may hear from him or premies?)

8) If they were to confess that the way it was handled was a mistake, how should they now rectify their mistake in your opinion?

9) Most premies I have spoken with regard this, at face value, as a regrettable mistake. They also feel that to confess as much, still leaves Maharaji's validity as The Master in matters of Knowledge intact.

What would be your comment on their opinion that as a Master he can make all these kinds of mistakes and still be trustworthy in matters of the heart?

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Tues, Dec 26, 2000 at 03:08:31 (GMT)
From: Michael Dettmers
Email: dettmers@gylanix.com
To: Patrick
Subject: Christmas Tidings
Message:
Patrick,

Here are my responses to your questions:

1) Did Maharaji speak later to you or anyone else you know about this, if so what did he say?

No. Once the matter was dealt with, the subject was never raised again, at least in my presence.

2) What was his reaction to the death of this cyclist?

Everyone, including Maharaji considered it to be an unfortunate accident.

3) Do you know what happened to Sampurnanand's 'houseboy' in terms of retribution for his confessed part in this?

I did not play a direct or indirect role in the settlement of this matter. The houseboy suffered no retribution that I am aware of. The Indian authorities accepted that it was an accident, and the family was satisfied with the cash settlement. With that, the case was closed.

4) Was this matter discussed amongst 'Premies around Maharaji' at all? You were there and presumably the subject must have come up.

Same response as my answer to your first question.

5) What were Maharaji and those premies involved so afraid would actually happen if Maharaji had confessed that he was driving - that was so worth this risky course of action?

Prior to this incident, Maharaji had had to deal with several problems with the Indian authorities. In 1972, there was the jewelry smuggling incident. Following the family split, BBJ launched several bogus legal cases against Maharaji that took four years to resolve. Consequently, Maharaji could not visit India between 1976 and 1980. Starting in 1980, Maharaji once again visited visit India two or three times a year. The unfortunate accident happened sometime in 1982 or 1983. Given his previous difficulties with the Indian authorities, Maharaji didn’t want another scandal. Because corruption was so rampant in India at that time, Maharaji was confident that Sampurnanand could grease the right palms necessary to handle the matter, which he did.

6) What do you think we can expect Élan Vital's version of events to be, if they ever offer one?

In my post about this revelation, I prefaced it with my expression of disgust with the way Maharaji and Élan Vital handled the Jagdeo situation. My point was to give a concrete example of how Maharaji and his cohorts are capable of lying and covering up any situation that they feel may damage Maharaji’s reputation. I found it particularly interesting that Randy Prouty was also a player in this situation as, I have no doubt, he was in the Jagdeo situation. I don’t know what, if anything, Élan Vital will say about this matter, but judging from their FAQ’s, I wouldn’t expect anything that resembles the truth.

7) If they were to confess that the way it was handled was a mistake, how should they now rectify their mistake in your opinion?

Maharaji should rectify this and his other mistakes by addressing all of the people who have looked to him as a Lord, or Perfect Master, or simply as a teacher and admit that he is spiritually and morally bankrupt as well as an alcoholic in need of rehab. He should seek out Jagdeo’s victims, personally apologize to them, and make restitution. He should also apologize for all of the confusion and suffering his illegal, unethical and hypocritical behavior have caused those sincere seekers of truth who came to him for spiritual solace and guidance. He should seek to recompense those families who have suffered financially because they gave him all or most of their money under false pretenses, even if he has to sell his GV and his yacht to do so. Finally, he should retire from the perfect master business altogether.

8) Most premies I have spoken with regard this, at face value, as a regrettable mistake. They also feel that to confess as much, still leaves Maharaji's validity as The Master in matters of Knowledge intact. What would be your comment on their opinion that as a Master he can make all these kinds of mistakes and still be trustworthy in matters of the heart?

I regard this incident as an unfortunate accident that could happen to anyone. In this instance, Maharaji was not drunk behind the wheel, but the fact is he left the scene of an accident in which he was the driver of a car that killed a man, and he conspired to cover up his complicity in the matter. This is just one example of many in which he has exhibited less than exemplary behavior. Given these facts, each person must decide for themselves if Maharaji possesses the moral and spiritual authority and integrity worthy of their love, trust and devotion, for that is what he demands. I, for one, cannot and I would strongly recommend that no one else place his or her trust in him either.

Michael

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Date: Tues, Dec 26, 2000 at 06:59:13 (GMT)
From: Suchabananda
Email: None
To: Michael Dettmers
Subject: Mithrasmas Tidings
Message:
http://www.elanvital.org/behind_the_message.htm

Maharaji’s own takes: 'When you slip on a banana skin, you can’t blame the banana or the person who threw it there. It was you, through a moment of unconsciousness, didn’t look where you were walking.'

Peace,

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Date: Tues, Dec 26, 2000 at 21:02:39 (GMT)
From: sucha
Email: None
To: Michael Dettmers
Subject: Q:time,date,road,people,car,brake/swerve,report?nt
Message:
nt
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Tues, Dec 26, 2000 at 01:30:06 (GMT)
From: Patrick
Email: None
To: Maharaji
Subject: Could you answer these questions please Maharaji?
Message:
In the early 80’s, following a festival at the ashram outside of New Delhi, India, Maharaji and his motorcade were traveling from the ashram to the airport to board the 707 for America. Maharaji was driving the lead car and I was a passenger in the front seat of the car directly behind his. All of a sudden, I saw a man riding a bicycle pull out in front of Maharaji’s car.
Seconds later the man went flying several yards into the ditch. He died instantly. Randy Prouty, who was traveling as security in Maharaji’s vehicle, frantically ran to the car I was in and instructed all of us to get out of the car and find a place in the other vehicles that were part of the motorcade. Maharaji and the people in his car quickly transferred to the car I was in, and we all sped to the airport.
Sampurnanand stayed behind to deal with the situation which he did by having his houseboy take the wrap. In the investigation that ensued, the houseboy stating that he was the driver of the vehicle who hit the unfortunate cyclist. That explanation, plus a heft cash settlement to the victim’s family, enabled Maharaji to quickly put the incident behind him so that he could get on with the business of bringing peace, love and joy to the rest of humanity.

I would like to ask you some questions regarding these allegations of Michael Dettmers.

1) What was your reaction to the death of this cyclist?

2) Was it you or somebody else who decided that the matter should be handled in this way?

3) What were you or those premies involved so afraid would actually happen if you had confessed that you were driving - that was so worth this risky course of action?

Presumably you and your premies thought that the scandal of your involvement in the accident would have been so damaging to your work that it merited lying to avoid such an outcome. Surely you would have known that lying about it in this manner would constitute an even worse scandal should someone decide to blow the whistle - as Michael Dettmers is attempting to do?

4) What is your version of events?

5) If you are prepared to admit that the way this incident was handled was a mistake, then how would you propose to rectify this error?

6) Most premies I have spoken with so far regard this, at face value, as a regrettable mistake. They also feel that to admit as much, leaves your validity as The Master in matters of Knowledge intact.

7) If as a Master you are really prepared to allow people to protect you through lies, then how can we be sure that you are not also capable of lying with regard to matters of the heart and Knowledge? In short you could make it a lot easier for your pupils to trust you and get on with the business of knowledge if you didn’t appear to behave so contradictingly at every turn.

8) Wouldn’t it be more helpful to your stated cause of inspiring people in the field of Knowledge, if you were to act in a manner which generally made it easier for people to develop trust in you rather than the opposite? What is to be gained by behaving in such a way that you are effectively putting obstacles in the path of your students? If the object is to somehow test them, then would it not be kinder to give them trials that they had some hope of passing?

9)You once said words to the effect that… the Master places insurmountable difficulties in the paths of those who he loves so that they will abandon all attempts to deal with them on their own, and turn to him all the more. If your confusing behaviour is supposed to represent such a gracious gift from you, our loving Master, whereby we have another opportunity to deny our reason and once again, trust that you, and your apparent propensity for lies and cover up, only indicates another opportunity for us to abandon our judgement,… then where is the loving reassurance and help that is supposed to come in on the wings of grace once this ‘letting go’ has been done?

10) How come when I gave up everything, including my better judgement, obediently, to serve you in your Ashram –a lifelong commitment that I made with considerable anguish and sense of sacrifice – how come I ended up having such a miserable time?

11) How come… the experience of surrendering to you in practice only seemed to bring deprivation and poverty of experience of life?

12) How come even the initial joy of meditation that you seemed to have introduced to me became of little comfort when I entered your world of ‘total surrender’ where, deprived of the love of man and wordly pleasures, and turning as a child –stripped of hopes in this world – I reached much as a dying man for the love and mercy of God – you. How come you were not there then?

13) They say that Hell is the absence of both the love of Man and God. How come that is what it felt like?

14) How long are we supposed to hang in there and await the tests to finish? How come you let us continually fail your endless Herculean tests if you love us so much?

15) How come when you claim to be the only friend and lover that we truly have in this life, your truly dedicated lovers find themselves waiting out in the cold, wasting their lives doing apparently fruitless tasks –for all the world as if they might as well be dead – whilst you and a select few ‘privileged’ sycophants – have all the fun , all the while spurning and deriding the honest intentions of your dedicated lovers who are in difficulty.

16) How come this whole show seems daily more like the story of a Vampiric Antichrist –who drunk with power and congratulating himself for triumphing over the God of Love–in an obscene parody of the latter - enslaves his wan, lifeblood-sucked victims to him – promising them elusive eternal happiness and swearing them to deadly secrets that behold them to fearful dependancy upon him, their bloated and gloating Slave Master? He who would rub out their self respect, reason and righteousness and replace it with self-doubt , nonsense and immorality.
He who would hold up their stupid blind acceptance as noble faith and flatter his gullible sheep that they are safely at home in his comfy slaughter house.

He who like the Pied Piper would lead the innocent children from their loving families and homes with his siren melodies, charming them to follow him , spellbound under his hypnotic influence to the distant cave where they were lost to those who loved them – where they were entombed and put to work as his slaves.

Too many mince pies or a cry from the heart?
Happy Christmas!

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Date: Tues, Dec 26, 2000 at 05:29:53 (GMT)
From: A question
Email: None
To: Patrick
Subject: Megalomania or stupidity?
Message:
There are still 2 options re Maharaji I assume;
Maharaji is a fraud, or he is a real master,

If the latter is the case, I think your question probably never will be ansvered here.

If you consider Maharaji to be a Master, it appears that you put youself abouve him acting like a selfappointed jugde, If this is the case, it appears that you suffer from mealomania and your questions are none of you business,

If Maharaji is a fraud, there seems to be no real neeed to ask those questions,
BTW,is there no one here hwo have done a punishable act and got away with it? Or did you all report yourself to the police. And did you take responsibility for you actions anyway?

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Date: Wed, Dec 27, 2000 at 01:42:47 (GMT)
From: Roger eDrek
Email: drek@oz.net
To: A question
Subject: I was bad once - really bad and I...
Message:
did not turn myself into Law Enforcement Officers, but instead I punished myself in a most physical and painful fashion. I now find that I benefit greatly from such punishment and I pay a pretty penny to have it done to me again and again.
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Date: Tues, Dec 26, 2000 at 20:41:01 (GMT)
From: Jerry
Email: None
To: A question
Subject: I'd be careful if I were you
Message:
It's dangerous thinking to think somebody, in this world, is beyond reproach. I would suggest to you that you're playing right into Maharaji's hands by thinking he's beyond it. Think about it. Is it realistic for somebody to require, in this world, that we remove all doubt from our mind? People get burned that way. To require of your students that you abandon all discretion and misgiving can't be healthy. Again, not in this world. There's just to much deceit to expect any rational person to proceed without caution. Only somebody trying to get over on you would want you to steer away from judgement of him. That's Maharaji. It's profitable for him to require a lack of discretion from you. And that's all it's about, getting from you what he can. He's good at it.
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Date: Tues, Dec 26, 2000 at 17:09:55 (GMT)
From: Scott T.
Email: None
To: A question
Subject: Megalomania or stupidity?
Message:
There are still 2 options re Maharaji I assume;
Maharaji is a fraud, or he is a real master,

Well, we aren't limited to making assumptions any more than we're limited to making assumptions about whether a conventional con man is guilty of fraud. Analysis of the actual evidence forecloses one of those options. How you deal with a fraud is now *your* problem.

--Scott

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Date: Tues, Dec 26, 2000 at 12:30:42 (GMT)
From: Patrick
Email: None
To: A question
Subject: Megalomania or stupidity?
Message:
Dear ‘A question’,

There are still 2 options re Maharaji I assume; Maharaji is a fraud, or he is a real master, If the latter is the case, I think your question probably never will be answered here.

Also if the former is the case, a direct response is unlikely I guess.

Now, regarding some other people’s suggestions about sending questions such as mine to him more directly, I would comment that my last set of ‘questions’ are more about posing questions for us to answer for ourselves.
Ages ago (in Amaroo actually) in very humble tones, I penned my misgivings and expressed my problems in a letter to him directly. Since neither I or anyone else I know of, has ever found such an approach yielded a direct response, I hoped rather that by merely having made the gesture of manifesting such a ‘prayer for guidance’, the universe would somehow respond and I would receive my answer through ‘satsang’ or otherwise in my daily life.

I am not entirely comfortable with your popular idea that Maharaji is either a fraud or a real master. I accept that for many, including myself, there have been ‘lessons’ in his Master Class that were helpful, but I fail to see why this means that he may not be capable of misleading people in some other ways or making mistakes. Things don’t look so black or white to me. I admit that my rambling analogies about the antichrist etc. may at first seem to be designed to cast him in an extreme role. What I am trying to draw attention to is that he has successfully cast himself in the opposite extreme role, certainly in the minds of premies like yourself who see things in terms of Good and Evil, and little in between. He confirms this simply by never acknowledging that his mistakes have repercussions worse than being some sort of ‘graceful’ opportunity for premies to learn and grow.

If you consider Maharaji to be a Master, it appears that you put yourself above him acting like a self appointed judge, If this is the case, it appears that you suffer from megalomania

I agree with Salam on this in that it seems inaccurate to suggest that anyone, Premie or otherwise- can have no judgements about Maharaji. As Premies, we merely make more generous judgements about him.
I guess that as a self-appointed judge you would expect me also to cast some sentence in Maharaji’s direction. You may notice that I have not done this, but have merely raised questions.
I would have thought that expressing my judgements in this forum or elsewhere could be compared with a student of life, having the courage to voice his honest opinions, despite some considerable disapproval from other students and possibly from the Master himself. I effect I understand that you consider me a disruptive element.
Regarding the possibility that I have megalomaniac aspirations, I would point out that I am not alone in my attempts to openly discuss my doubts about Maharaji and Knowledge. Neither do I believe asking Maharaji hard questions indicates that the person or persons doing so seek to become megalomaniacs themselves.

…and your questions are none of you business

As someone who dedicated myself as best I could to serve Maharaji for many years, I fail to see why, when Maharaji’s behaviour seems confusing to me, I should not be at liberty to ask some questions. I would say that Maharaji’s private life is only my business in as much as it directly affects those and me around me. In this case, I find that it is hard to reconcile his private behaviour with my feelings of what I expect in terms of honesty from someone I trusted as a Master and guide.

If Maharaji is a fraud, there seems to be no real need to ask those questions

Do you think that if someone is getting away with fraud there is no need to take any steps to expose their fraudulence? I suppose you are saying that if he is a fraud on such a grand scale then Life itself will dish out the appropriate Karmic consequence, and that we, as mere mortals, have no part to play. Whilst I agree that my questions probably fall on deaf ears and actually only serve to stimulate my own ability to answer them, rather than to expose him as a fraud, I would say that as such they address a personal need. Others here have expressed that there is a shared need to ask such questions amongst ourselves. That we do so publicly is because we see no harm in inviting Premies, Elan Vital and Maharaji himself to enjoin the debate.

When someone like Michael Dettmers throws into the debate some highly contentious, more serious and damning allegations, then the debate takes on a more serious tone. This is what we are seeing now, for better or for worse.

is there no one here who have done a punishable act and got away with it? Or did you all report yourself to the police. And did you take responsibility for you actions anyway?

I agree that most people have done illegal things that they have got away with. I have done some myself, none of which I am ashamed of now. One guy I was at school with and with whom I shared his first joint, later became a heroin addict. I have maintained friendship with this guy and he dos not consider that I was responsible for the way his life panned out.
Sure I have taken responsibility for my actions. I can state categorically that that is what I want to do in my life.

Some criminals are themselves grateful for being caught. Deep down they regret that their antisocial and illegal actions are harming others. When they acknowledge that they are sick, that is when for them the path of recovery begins.

I have a very good premie friend who is in jail. He was caught with a large amount of cocaine. He is suitably contrite about his actions and feels that, in many ways, his capture and punishment is a blessing in disguise.

Similarly I hope that Maharaji himself, faced with the opportunity to accept responsibility for many things that he has done and said over the years (for after all, this is not just about fessing up for this part in his accident) will himself become healed and a happier human being.

What I am saying is that for Maharaji’s or anyone’s ‘skeletons in the cupboard’ to be dragged out cannot really be anything but a good thing for everyone at the end of the day.
Again, if someone can point out why this not the case then please enlighten me.


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Date: Tues, Dec 26, 2000 at 11:55:13 (GMT)
From: Gordon Showcase
Email: None
To: A question
Subject: Megalomania or stupidity?
Message:
I thought I'd ritten that post, Mr A Question but I chequed with my secretry and she siad I did'nt.

Anyway, yoo mak sum valid pionts and have the ora of a thinking primie. At this time of year, mealomania is a serious bisiness and I admit that yesterday, I ate to much.

And yor qite write - if Maharaji is a master all these people should not be asking qestons about him but just axepting evrythink about him as he is. But as we no, all these people are just a bunch of loosers!

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Date: Tues, Dec 26, 2000 at 10:07:23 (GMT)
From: JohnT
Email: None
To: A question
Subject: Stinking thinking or stupidity?
Message:
There are still 2 options re Maharaji I assume;
Maharaji is a fraud, or he is a real master,

You would be wrong to assume the question is open; it is not. Rawat's just this guy, you know, whose life has been a lie. All of it. He is a lie; false; rotten; mad; bad; and sad.

If the latter is the case, I think your question probably never will be ansvered here.

If Rawat did have some feeling for truth; were he able to see what beauty is; if he has an ordinary person's sense of ethics (let alone the ethical awareness of a fully realised soul); had he, in other words, any ah, mastery of what it takes to be human, why then of course he could put the record straight here. Why not? Others whose conduct has been questioned have come here to put the record straight. Why not Rawat?

If you consider Maharaji to be a Master, it appears that you put youself abouve him acting like a selfappointed jugde, If this is the case, it appears that you suffer from mealomania and your questions are none of you business,

Not at all. We just take the Dalai Lama's advice to SPY ON YOUR GURU.

Listen, it is a beautiful and wonderful world, but it is everywhere full of trickery. Blind faith can too easily be exploited by cynical gluttons. You have a duty to protect such weak and underdeveloped souls from their self-serving delusions by exercising proper caution in your worship.

If Maharaji is a fraud, there seems to be no real neeed to ask those questions,

We wish to delineate the fraud as fully as we can. To tell the truth about this perversion will protect people in the future, and help set free those still caught in the maya.

BTW,is there no one here hwo have done a punishable act and got away with it? Or did you all report yourself to the police.

What has that got to do with it? If I make elementary mistakes in maths, then I cannot honestly represent myself as an expert in Math. So it is with a 'Spiritual Master' who makes elementary mistakes in living his life here under the sun - he destroys his own credibility by not walking the walk he preaches.

And did you take responsibility for you actions anyway?

Yes. That is why I publicly stand by my words, unlike cowardly premie apologists for that wicked and greedy liar, Prem Pal Rawat.

WAKE UP!!

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Date: Tues, Dec 26, 2000 at 09:43:13 (GMT)
From: Hal
Email: None
To: A question
Subject: Is that you Bjorn ? nt
Message:
nt
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Date: Tues, Dec 26, 2000 at 07:49:49 (GMT)
From: Salam
Email: None
To: A question
Subject: Get off your Ivory tower and come down to earth.
Message:
There is no such a thing as being non judgmental, which what you are perpetuating to be.

Neither there are two ways about Maharaji; he is a liar, a fraud and pathetic example of a human being. That being the case, we, the people that have been affected by him, think he is to be judged according to the law, in which, a case is being built agents him.

Only a Premie will give him the second option of being a master. Are you a premie? If so, you know where you can shove your argument.

If you're not a premie, then you're wasting you're time, because we intend to carry on the judgment.

Salam

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Date: Tues, Dec 26, 2000 at 07:09:26 (GMT)
From: Stonor
Email: None
To: A question
Subject: stupidity - your comments?
Message:
You wrote:

BTW,is there no one here hwo have done a punishable act and got away with it? Or did you all report yourself to the police. And did you take responsibility for you actions anyway?

None of us ever claimed to be a spiritual master, let alone 'GOD.'

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Date: Tues, Dec 26, 2000 at 20:53:15 (GMT)
From: Jerry
Email: None
To: Stonor
Subject: stupidity - your comments?
Message:
None of us ever claimed to be a spiritual master, let alone 'GOD.'

Nor did we run over somebody, dead, and then let one of our humble devotees take the fall for it. I'd say that's about as low as you can go, even for a Lord Of The Universe, eh? But nah, let's not be judgemental. Who are we to have an opinion on such matters when it concerns someone so mighty and high as the Perfect Master? How dare we! Surely, we're doomed to burn in hell for it.

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Date: Tues, Dec 26, 2000 at 06:12:20 (GMT)
From: Bazza
Email: bshaw8@bellsouth.net
To: A question
Subject: Megalomania or stupidity?
Message:
Well I don't mean to answer on Patrick's behalf and Im not, but I'd like to say something to you if I may.

First, those are fair-enough questions, I guess, all 3 of them, but if its something you feel sincere about, why dont you sign your post with your real name? This isnt meant to be confrontational, but I have to ask, how real is all this to you? Do you have something meaningful to add to the discussions, do you feel strongly about maharaji for or against, do you take responsibility for your action in posting here?

If you answer yes to all those , then surely you can see how ludicrous it is not to stand up and be counted, and how powerless your argument is when you dont have the strength or courage to say who you are?

Does that make sense? I think so.

That out of the way, I said I agreed with Patrick's sentiments because aside from this 'bicycle' incident, he is trying to tell maharaji how he feels, why he is disillusioned and disappointed. Patrick is not the first to express those feelings and he certainly won't be the last. The fact that neither he, I or any other person who posts here has EVER received a reply from our 'master', or from an appointed subordinate, shows how little he cares. How do you explain that? What if it were you asking for help in that fashion?

You know, if you intend to reply without giving your real name, you may as well not bother, because as I said, to do so deserves neither respect nor attention. But just try it, feel that commitment to your Master and stand proud before this worthless bunch, state your name and express your loyalty. You'll find it very liberating, I promise.

Barry Shaw
aka bazza

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Date: Tues, Dec 26, 2000 at 05:07:43 (GMT)
From: Bazza
Email: None
To: Patrick
Subject: Excellent questions
Message:
Why don't you email them to maharaji via his website, maybe even send them in to Elan Vital and Enjoying Life? I emailed him with my own feelings of disappointment, betrayal and sadness. Never received a reply of course, but there's always the chance that Somebody reads them and may start to feel the truth behind what is being expressed. I wonder if they rotate the mail readers to avoid this happening, or if they all just get deleted regardless of content?
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Date: Tues, Dec 26, 2000 at 08:08:49 (GMT)
From: Steve Quint
Email: the_avenger55@hotmail.com
To: Patrick, Bazza and Everyo
Subject: Excellent questions
Message:
I think these questions deserve delivery with signature of recipient or even better, an ad in the Malibu newspaper. I'd chip in.

Steve

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Date: Tues, Dec 26, 2000 at 19:12:36 (GMT)
From: Bazza
Email: None
To: Steve Quint
Subject: Interesting idea
Message:
Do we have the mailing address? Any idea what ads cost in the Malibu Muckraker?
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Date: Tues, Dec 26, 2000 at 20:52:44 (GMT)
From: Patrick
Email: None
To: Bazza
Subject: Interesting idea
Message:
Steve wrote: I think these questions deserve delivery with signature of recipient or even better, an ad in the Malibu newspaper. I'd chip in.

Bazza replied:Do we have the mailing address? Any idea what ads cost in the Malibu Muckraker?

If you're going to start publishing stuff I sincerely hope you're not considering using my post. I would object to that. Make up your own questions in your own words and do as you wish with them by all means.
Patrick

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Date: Tues, Dec 26, 2000 at 21:09:06 (GMT)
From: Bazza
Email: None
To: Patrick
Subject: Dont worry!
Message:
Patrick I wouldnt dream of using your post. I've emailed m. with a similar set of questions, without reply and did wonder if mailing a hardcopy would be more effective. But then I guess if he has minions to read the email, he has others to do likewise with regular mail. I believe something was published in a newspaper one time, sort of an open letter. Wonder if there was any official response to that.
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Date: Tues, Dec 26, 2000 at 23:46:39 (GMT)
From: JohnT
Email: None
To: Bazza
Subject: Here's the link
Message:
Here's a snippet I found with the Forum Search Engine. It works :-))

Date: Thurs, Aug 24, 2000 at 17:24:42 (GMT)
From: MRC Member
Dear VP:

A group of us wrote an open letter to M, took an ad out in the Boston Phoenix for the week when M was appearing in Boston, with the hopes that premies in that area might see the ad and visit the site which was mentioned in the ad.

The letter has caused a controversy, to say the least, in this forum.

Here's the link to the letter:

http://www.tigerriver.com/mletter.html

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Date: Wed, Dec 27, 2000 at 04:07:51 (GMT)
From: Marianne
Email: None
To: JohnT
Subject: M not responding to letters
Message:
There was indeed a letter published in Boston in advance of one of M's programs this year. Its authors dubbed themselves the Maharaji Responsibility Campaign. Joe, Jim and I were among those who helped draft the letter, although there were others, premie and ex-premie alike, who contributed to its content. I believe we are the only people who have publicly identified ourselves as having been a part of the MRC. There are many threads in the archives in which the letter was discussed. You can use Sir Dave's search engine to look them up if you are interested.

Neither M nor EV ever formally responded to the letter. However, it was soon after that letter was published that EV posted the FAQ's on its website. In effect, the MRC letter generated the FAQ's, as they seem to be directly responsive to the issues raised in the Boston letter.

Marianne

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Date: Mon, Dec 25, 2000 at 22:43:49 (GMT)
From: Salam
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: I wonder what Rawat wished for X-MAS?
Message:
1- EPO to shut down.

2- MD to slip on a banna leaf.

3- not have ever gotton involved into all of this

4- more blonds

5- a new jet

6- toilets were never invented

7- I shut up

8- Everyone to leave him alone

9- others. Please specify.

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Date: Mon, Dec 25, 2000 at 22:51:37 (GMT)
From: ham
Email: None
To: Salam
Subject: That he could pull none premie blondes,
Message:
and have some REAL artistic skill for once,
and probably have a life too.

Apart from his money and his studio, can't think of one other part of his life I'd like.

When I think of him just as another person, and not some conniving guru, I feel nothing but sadness for him, he strikes me as rather a pathetic person really.

The funniest scenario is him trying to pull a non-premie, that would be REALLY amusing.

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Date: Tues, Dec 26, 2000 at 14:41:10 (GMT)
From: jondon
Email: None
To: all
Subject: That nobody is watching the morning tv (nt)
Message:
nt
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Date: Mon, Dec 25, 2000 at 20:25:27 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: Oh yeah, THIS is funny
Message:
Tell me that this little premie hasn't been reading this forum. Got this from ELK:

mistakes

mistakes uncover new views
of what was hiding from the obvious at hand
they are the uncounted factors
that can assist us in shedding mediocrity
and in so doing we become aware of fresh possibilities
that we can choose to integrate into our human experience
(albeit a short one)

Ronn Ames
Silver Spring, USA

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Date: Sat, Dec 30, 2000 at 00:24:56 (GMT)
From: dv
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Oh Christ Ron, You're STILL a premie? nt
Message:
nt
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Date: Mon, Dec 25, 2000 at 22:55:25 (GMT)
From: ham
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: You might well be right,
Message:
but for myself that was an attitude I had before leaving premiedom, and certainly one that a few renegade premies I knew were striving for, if with difficulty because of the cultic thinking.
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Date: Mon, Dec 25, 2000 at 16:11:59 (GMT)
From: An Ex
Email: None
To: Sanjit
Subject: Prem Pal Singh Rawat and friends
Message:
Sanjit,

You seem to have turned a blind eye to the fact that we are talking about patterns of behavior here concerning Prem Pal Singh Rawat, his confidantes such as Randy Prouty, his business associates and finally his own attorneys.

Many of us here innately sensed that Prem Pal Singh Rawat and those surrounding his hedonistic empire are seriously flawed ethically and morally. Prem Pal Singh Rawat presents himself as a Perfect Master utilizing subversive techniques of persuasion that included but were and are not limited to psychological manipulation, confidentiality statements, golden parachutes of money for upper echelon members of Elan Vital that defect, and bribery for what Prem Pal Singh Rawat and Randy Prouty most likely consider the lower class or in countries such as India the lower caste.

It has become evident that the value of human life is meaningless to Prem Pal Singh Rawat. The myriad of emotions and actions that comprise a human beings life are cast aside as trivial and trite by Prem Pal Singh Rawat when it comes to his own pleasure and the pleasures of his family. Many premies and ex-premies cry, 'Don't involve his wife or children.' Yet, it is an oft overlooked fact that Prem Pal Singh Rawat in his insatiable desire for material wealth himself involved his own children, Premlata, Hans, Dayalata, and Amar. How you ask did he involve his children? He went corporate with his own children when he founded the company Wahadamar Inc. for the purpose of selling cult paraphernalia. Even his own children are not safe from his exploitation.

Yes, many of us here are angry and disillusioned with Prem Pal Singh Rawat and are working through the process of healing. Many of us are shocked, disgusted, and appalled that our well intentioned and hard earned donations were used for purposes such as: buy outs, hush money, drugs, alcohol, women, houses, yachts, and silence as the cost of a human life.

I am ashamed I was ever a part of Elan Vital headed by Linda Gross, I am ashamed I paid for a video from Wahadamar Inc., I am ashamed I bought into the lie that Prem Pal Singh Rawat his wife Marolyn, and his children were living in a 'shack' in Malibu and desperately needed funds. I am ashamed that I ever listened to someone like Randy Prouty, now a corporate investor but indubitably still willing to cover any miscreant behaviors of Prem Pal Singh Rawat.

I grieve for the 'lost years' and the alienation of my family that lasted well over a decade. I grieve for the trusting young woman whose heart and mind were manipulated by Prem Pal Singh Rawat, Marolyn Rawat, Initiators and, as it turns out, behind the scenes .. Attorneys such as Robert A Jacobs of Milbank, Hadley, Tweed, and McCoy. I grieve for the loss of innocence.

Finally, I am healing and recovering. I am hopeful. I am coming into my own and truly alive. May future and present generations be spared from the Rawats and their lethal 'modus operandi' of attaining power over the lives of the innocent with the sole intent of maintaining their morally bankrupt lifestyle.

Merry Christmas!

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Date: Tues, Dec 26, 2000 at 11:39:20 (GMT)
From: Aussi Ji
Email: None
To: An Ex
Subject: Prem Pal Singh Rawat and friends
Message:
That was well written.Nice one.Cheers Aussi Ji.
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Date: Mon, Dec 25, 2000 at 22:31:33 (GMT)
From: JHB
Email: None
To: An Ex
Subject: Prem Pal Singh Rawat and friends
Message:
Shame is a difficult emotion to deal with. I am ashamed I let Maharaji play such a large part in my life. I
still can't admit my error to many of my friends but I would be happy testifying against the fat cunt.

John the goodwill to all people person.

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Date: Tues, Dec 26, 2000 at 23:15:26 (GMT)
From: Bin Liner
Email: None
To: JHB
Subject: Goodwill to you John,that rang a bell(nt)
Message:
nt
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Date: Mon, Dec 25, 2000 at 13:55:03 (GMT)
From: Anonymous poster - MD's
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: latest deposition reposted - re. 'hit and run'
Message:
This issue needs to remain in the forefront ...hence the repost of the thread here:

Date: Thurs, Dec 21, 2000 at 11:36:04
From: Last question
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: To Michael Dettmers re your 1st agreement
Message:

If I understand correctly, you made 2 confidential agreements.

One of them you signed regarding financial matters. This agreement you told made sense to you.

Re the other one, you were given a choice. Meaning from the most sincere place in you, you were given a choice and a deal. Like you had to promise from the bottom of your heart, that if you were allowed to enter that 'room', what you saw would you keep to your heart in confidentiality.

You seem to respect the financial agreement, event if it is hard for anyone to imagine what now is untold.

The other and more deeper agreement, 'signed' at the heart of your soul, not on any paper, you seem to have broken again and again. You have even revealed intimate details a friend in complete trust to you, told you.

My question is, Have I misunderstood something?
And why is that you respect the 2nd agreement, when you drop the 1st? And what do you feel about it?

Date: Thurs, Dec 21, 2000 at 20:34:02
From: Michael Dettmers
Email: dettmers@ylanix.com
To: Last question
Subject: Not my last response
Message:
Dear Last Question:

You ask a very good question. I agree with your assessment that there are two agreements -- a signed contract and a sacred covenant. Let’s deal with the signed contract first. You state that I 'seem to respect the financial agreement, even if it is hard for anyone to imagine what now is untold.' With respect to the non-disclosure clause in my contract, I have chosen to interpret its meaning in the narrowest sense possible. This means that I have not hesitated to disclose financial and legal information that I had discussed in open sessions with organizers all over the world. And I would not hesitate to fully breach the non-disclosure clause if I thought the information I disclosed could in any way damage Maharaji. Furthermore, I could give a rat’s ass if Maharaji or any of his agents chose to sue me for breach of the non-disclosure clause. It would love the opportunity to depose Maharaji and his agents under oath and ask them point blank to deny any of the assertions I have made public on the Ex-Premie Forum about Maharaji’s behavior. The reason I chose not to breach the non-disclosure clause is because it might create negative consequences for my consulting business where I am often required to include non-disclosure clauses in my agreements. It is normal for potential and/or actual clients to demand confidentiality, not just for legal and financial matters, but also to protect their proprietary inventions and trade secrets.

Now let’s talk about the sacred covenant. You say that I 'had to promise from the bottom of (my) heart, that if (I) were allowed to enter that ‘room’, what (I) saw (I) would keep to (my) heart in confidentiality.' I presume that you are referring to the conditions one is asked to abide by if they agree to be x-rated. To make sense of this 'agreement' we must first put the process of becoming x-rating in context. As I explained in my earlier post on this subject, the premies who were invited to become x-rated had been in the ashram and, for the most part, were already doing full-time service for Maharaji. These people were trusted by those who were already x-rated and quite often they were known by Maharaji. So before anyone was x-rated, they were already bound by the sacred covenant the existed between Maharaji and his devotees made manifest through the ashram. And who created this sacred covenant? Maharaji of course, during a time when he was unquestionably presenting himself as the lord, despite Élan Vital’s claims to the contrary. That’s what made the covenant sacred. We surrendered our lives to him and he promised to take care of us, not just spiritually but physically as well. X-rating made sense if one subscribed to the lord – devotee belief system and it wasn’t much of a stretch to accept that the lord, as such, must not be subject to the same rules and protocols that applied to his devotees.

All bets are off, however, if the covenant is broken. And who broke the covenant? You’re right – Maharaji did when he unceremoniously disbanded the ashrams and threw most its residents out on their asses without even an explanation. That act was a most grievous violation of the 'deeper agreement, ‘signed’ at the heart of your soul' to use your words. He has since denied that he ever presented himself as the lord and, in his usual manner, has deflected any and all responsibility for this tragedy onto others. So, if he’s no longer the lord, then there is no longer any reason to exempt him from the standards of civilized society. But no, he wants it both ways. Well fuck him. He is a hypocrite and that is what I have disclosed.

Finally, you claim that I have violated my friendship with Maharaji because I 'even revealed intimate details a friend in complete trust to (me), told (me).' I guess that depends upon your definition of friendship. At one point in my relationship with Maharaji, I believed it was possible to know him as a friend. I vividly remember a trip we took from Los Angeles to Miami in August 1984. At the time, he did not have a personal jet. The 707 had just been sold and we had not yet secured the Lear 35 so we made the trip together in First Class on Pan Am. At that time, he was in the midst of his marriage difficulties and was in a subdued and somber mood. Well into the flight when we were both a little tipsy, he leaned over to me and said that he hoped that we would always remain friends even if I wasn’t serving him in any capacity. For years, I held onto that possibility even long after we had parted company. I’m sure that is one of the main reasons I didn’t come forward with my revelations any sooner than I did. But well over a decade passed since I left, and I never heard a word from him. Even his brother Raja Ji, whom I like very much, has called me once or twice a year just to say hello. When we were both in Berkeley a couple of years ago we got together for lunch. To me, that is how friends act even if they aren’t close friends. Maharaji, on the other hand, is incapable of friendship. I didn’t fully appreciate it at the time but his expression of friendship in 1984 had all the sincerity and commitment one can expect from an alcoholic. Still I said nothing until I became aware of the Jagdeo situation. His shameful and cowardly behavior in this matter has superceded any delusions of friendship I may have harbored and I decided to come forward with my disclosures.

And if you think that the Jagdeo situation isn’t proof enough of his cowardice, let me leave you with another disclosure to mull over this holiday season. I don’t know how many of you are aware that Maharaji has killed a man. In the early 80’s, following a festival at the ashram outside of New Delhi, India, Maharaji and his motorcade were traveling from the ashram to the airport to board the 707 for America. Maharaji was driving the lead car and I was a passenger in the front seat of the car directly behind his. All of a sudden, I saw a man riding a bicycle pull out in front of Maharaji’s car.

Seconds later the man went flying several yards into the ditch. He died instantly. Randy Prouty, who was traveling as security in Maharaji’s vehicle, frantically ran to the car I was in and instructed all of us to get out of the car and find a place in the other vehicles that were part of the motorcade. Maharaji and the people in his car quickly transferred to the car I was in, and we all sped to the airport.

Sampurnanand stayed behind to deal with the situation which he did by having his houseboy take the wrap. In the investigation that ensued, the houseboy stating that he was the driver of the vehicle who hit the unfortunate cyclist. That explanation, plus a heft cash settlement to the victim’s family, enabled Maharaji to quickly put the incident behind him so that he could get on with the business of bringing peace, love and joy to the rest of humanity.

Happy Holidays!!!

Michael

PS: I am leaving for a week to celebrate the holidays with my family so I don’t promise to look in on the Forum or respond to questions in a timely manner.

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Date: Mon, Dec 25, 2000 at 22:19:05 (GMT)
From: JHB
Email: None
To: Anonymous poster - MD's
Subject: Shame
Message:
Shame is a difficult emotion to deal with. I am ashamed I let Maharaji play such a large part in my life. I still can't admit my error to many of my friends but I would be happy testifying against the fat cunt.

John the goodwill to all people person.

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Date: Mon, Dec 25, 2000 at 14:35:19 (GMT)
From: Michael Dettmers
Email: None
To: Poster
Subject: latest deposition reposted - re. 'hit and run'
Message:
To the person who posted this message:

I don't mind if you want to re-post my response below but please identify yourself, even if anonomously, so that it doesn't appear as thought I decided to re-post my own response.

Thank you and Merry Christmas.

Michael

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Date: Tues, Dec 26, 2000 at 04:40:56 (GMT)
From: Scott T.
Email: None
To: Michael Dettmers
Subject: 'hit and run'
Message:
Michael:

I missed the original post, so am glad it was re-posted. Don't know what to say. I mean, I'm really at a loss. I'm not surprised that the incident happened, in the sense that it is typical of a certain type of elitist 'privilege' (Chappaquidik). However I don't feel that one need conclude that vice is inevitable, or regret a comparison between Maharaji and Krishnamurti, or the imperfectly consoling conclusion that some men (including women) are simply better than others.

Thanks,

--Scott

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Date: Mon, Dec 25, 2000 at 16:01:53 (GMT)
From: Forum Elves
Email: None
To: Michael Dettmers
Subject: taken care of
Message:
The 'from' field of the first post in this thread was edited to reflect the fact that you did not repost your own thread.

Merry Christmas from the forum elves!

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Date: Mon, Dec 25, 2000 at 16:10:55 (GMT)
From: shp
Email: None
To: Forum Elves
Subject: It was grammatically correct due to the ' after...
Message:
I noticed that whoever originally posted it put an apostrophe after Dettmers' (like that), which did in fact imply that it was not Michael who posted it, but failed to ID who did. And it was very subtle and could have easily, in fact was, easily mistaken for his own action.

Better to be repetetive and clear than vague and ambiguous, especially in sensitive situations like this.

Party On,

Sandy

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Date: Mon, Dec 25, 2000 at 14:59:33 (GMT)
From: shp
Email: None
To: Michael Dettmers
Subject: Happy Holidays, Michael
Message:
I thought you were away, but since you showed up, I want to thank you for 'coming out' and doing something that must have been very hard to manifest. I really believe that the truth sets one free.
I don't think the truth is just 'that experience', but also all the little daily truths that we live and fucntion within the agreements and confines of, which constitute the quality of our daily lives, like bricks in a house, and make up our life.

Whatever else happens, I appreciate what you have done.

Sandy

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Date: Mon, Dec 25, 2000 at 14:34:07 (GMT)
From: Rick
Email: None
To: Michael Dettmers'
Subject: I like you more all the time, Michael (nt)
Message:
nt
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Date: Mon, Dec 25, 2000 at 11:09:27 (GMT)
From: statute of no limitations
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: What Christmas means to me
Message:
Schrooge...bah huming bug.
tiny tim
prescious lil'flowers of buds
gorgeous incredible gifts of beauty
sparkling sun reflections upon lotus pedals of green
and read so wonderfully
in the stable of love
this is Christmas..and the end of 2000
winter solestice has come and gone
and a new millenium is upon us.
How doth shall we speaketh ?
In tongues...
for sayeth thou..for it is...indeed xmass...
a new birth...
jimi.tribe//http:mechelzidek
merry xmass to all...and to all a good flight.net
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Date: Wed, Dec 27, 2000 at 23:13:16 (GMT)
From: Cynthia
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: What Christmas means to me
Message:
Hi Everybody,

Hey Jim, good to see you back. Watch out for the hotdogger teens on their snowboards...they can put you right on your ass! (I live in a ski resort area).

Christmas means nothing to me anymore. Years ago, we decided since we're not Christians, and hate the commercial Christmas, that we would totally ignore the holiday, which is easy when you live far from relatives and are childfree.

So, I sometimes send holiday cards...this year I didn't have the inspiration nor the time. And the only ones who get present are the neices and nephews who are under age 18.

This year, I worked on Christmas, taking care of Jean, my new client. So I was forced to celebrate because I went with her to an xmass celebration, there was gift exchanging, etc.

I'll never do it again. I was so stressed out, I slept for 20 hours yesterday.

Tom and I usually have a nice lobster meal on xmass eve, don't exchange gifts, have some wine and spend xmass day watching TV and enjoying the quiet in the village.

It's changed our lives significantly to just learn to ignore the holiday.

But, New Years is my holiday...I love staying home, giving myself a nice altitude or ''attitude'' change, and enjoying that the fucking holidays are over for another year!!!

Be well, everybody, (I'm still catching up on the threads, and will be working another 35 hour shift straight through so, I'll be back some time in the near future)

Happy New Year - the REAL MILLENIUM!!!

Love,
Cynthia

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Date: Mon, Dec 25, 2000 at 20:27:23 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: statute of no limitations
Subject: Don't forget the presents (nt)
Message:
ddddddddd
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Date: Tues, Dec 26, 2000 at 08:26:09 (GMT)
From: Steve Quint
Email: the_avenger55@hotmail.com
To: Jim
Subject: You Forgot Mine
Message:
lol (whatever the fuck that means)

Steve

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Date: Tues, Dec 26, 2000 at 10:47:04 (GMT)
From: JohnT
Email: None
To: Steve Quint
Subject: What more do you want
Message:
Heck Steve,

Jim's back. What more could the dedicated Guru buster hope that Xmas could bring?

Laughing Out Load

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Date: Mon, Dec 25, 2000 at 12:09:05 (GMT)
From: Steve Quint
Email: the_avenger55@hotmail.com
To: statute of no limitations
Subject: What Christmas means to me
Message:
Christmas is a holiday celebrated by the majority of the population where I live, some religiously, most comercially. It has to some extent been foisted by the majority onto the minority.

I have been reading some interesting books recently on cults and religions, including 'The Jesus Mysteries' which asserts that there was no such person as the historical Jesus.

Many of the writers of books on cults define cults as non-conventional religions. Let's not forget that all religions started out as non-conventional and of the minority.

I participated a few days ago in a winter solstice celebration which was very beautiful and simple, including performances done with great skill and love. After that, any Christmas celebration I can conceive of would be boring, anticlimactic and suspicious in meaning.

Unfortunately, in my opinion, the world has gone to hell. Mother earth has experienced destruction and abomination beyond belief. The powers that have been and that be have not prevented this and have only exacerbated it.

I only hope that in the new millenium the powers of reason and intelligent questioning that I have experienced on this forum will somehow transfer to the world at large. The world has come through a period of great darkness and very little light is currently available. This solstice season only serves to remind me of this.

Steve

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Date: Mon, Dec 25, 2000 at 17:20:22 (GMT)
From: Stonor
Email: None
To: Steve Quint
Subject: Thanks Steve.
Message:
Season's greetings, Steve!

Thanks for your post, it sounds like you're having a wonderful holiday! My father (Danish) still celebrates the solstices, and they have become more significant for me than other 'holidays'.

From the 'Religion' column in the Saturday Gazette:

'It is no coincidence that Christmas falls around the same time as Wiccan and Shinto festivals. There is broad consensus that Dec. 25 has little to do with the time of year Jesus was born but was picked to coincide with the solstice and to hijack pagan festivals.'

All the best to you in 2001!

Anna

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Date: Mon, Dec 25, 2000 at 19:06:08 (GMT)
From: gerry
Email: cut-n-paste job
To: all
Subject: Ho ho ho Merry Mithrasmas !!!
Message:
I often wondered why December 25th was chosen to celebrate the birth of Christ. If the accounts in the Bible are correct, the time of Jesus birth would have been closer to mid-summer, for this is when shepherds would have been 'tending their flocks in the field' and the new lambs were born. Strange enough I found an ancient pagan religion, Mithrasism, which dates back over 4,000 years that also celebrated the birth of their 'saviour' on that date.

According to the Book of Origins, the Canon of the Mithrasic faith, 'the universe was created through Mithras, and Mithras was born into the world to save humanity from the attacks of the evil one, Ahriman, who was opposed to human beings. Mithras released the goodness Ahriman had stolen from humanity, and then died to the world, going to the underworld to destroy the servants of Ahriman and bind Ahriman there forever. Then He returned to the earth to teach humanity His commandments and begin Mysteries and Rites which would help humans remember His acts on our behalf. Because of His actions, we can choose good without the overwhelming power of evil, even though evil's influence can still seem powerful because our minds believe it is. Because of His teachings, we know that the purpose of our lives is to serve others in the name of Mithras.' The followers refer to Him as the 'Light of the World' a phrase often used also in Christian faith when referring to Christ.

Persian legends of Mithras says that He was born of the Sun God and a virgin mother, called 'the Mother of God', on December 25th. They saw him as a symbol of justice, truth, and loyalty. He was considered the saviour of humankind, and stories abound of His healing the sick, raising the dead, and performing miracles (making the blind see and the lame walk). Throughout His lifetime, He was seen as a protector of human souls, a mediator between 'heaven' and 'earth' and was even associated with a 'holy trinity'. He remained celibate,until the ripe old age of 64, throughout his life and preached the virtues of ethics, moral behavior, and good will.

The name Mithras comes from the Persian word for contract. Mithras was the guardian of contracts, the promise keeper; keeper of the covenant with mankind. Persians believed to break a contract would lead to bad luck for the entire land.

Ancient Persians believed in a 'celestial heaven' and hell. They believed that they would be judged by their god and granted justice of 'eternal salvation. On judgement day, the faithful dead would be resurrected and light would triumph over darkness. They took part in ritual purification or baptism, held Sundays sacred, drank wine and ate bread as a symbol of the body and blood and even took part in ritualistic purging (purification rites such as flagellation).

In their legends, Mithras had an 'earthly mission' to accomplish. He then was put to death on a cross and buried in a cave (some legends have Him held up in a cave to be reborn once a year).He then 'rose from the dead' and took part in a last supper with his 12 disciples (often associated with the 12 signs of the zodiac) and then ascended to the heavens to watch over His 'flock' from above.

Since these legends date back over 2,000 years earlier than the legends of Christ and even earlier than some of the 'ancient' religions associated with many pagan rituals, one is compelled to contemplate the origins of our traditions today.

http://www.digiserve.com/gaia/articles/mithras.html

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Date: Tues, Dec 26, 2000 at 16:39:19 (GMT)
From: gErRy
Email: None
To: gerry
Subject: Finally, my life has a purpoise, ah porpuse, a per
Message:
...because of His teachings, we know that the purpose of our lives is to serve others in the name of Mithras.
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Date: Tues, Dec 26, 2000 at 18:47:18 (GMT)
From: JohnT
Email: None
To: gErRy
Subject: thanks for clearing that up, gErRy ...
Message:
... I'll have a tall skinny latte, with a hash brownie, please. Um, and a toasted premie to go.

(unless we've finished them all off already, that is.)

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Date: Mon, Dec 25, 2000 at 20:39:46 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: gerry
Subject: That's actually quite fascinating
Message:
Why didn't the Persians copyright some of this? We should all be singing Farsi songs, it looks like. Hmm...
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Date: Mon, Dec 25, 2000 at 22:31:03 (GMT)
From: Salam
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Knock knock, where have you been?
Message:
All that ice you've been eating must have effected you lately.
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Date: Mon, Dec 25, 2000 at 20:36:55 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: gerry
Subject: Guess what -- Jesus never even knew Santa Claus!
Message:
There's a guy in my office who knows a lot about this shit.
At our office party the other night he was telling me that all sorts of things we commonly accept as being simply FACTs (sorry NSOL), are really quite controversial. I guess Walmart, J.C. Penny and the other big retailers in the WTO and IMF constructed this whole pack of lies and we've been eating it up ever since. For example, did you know they used to put real cocaine in Diet Pepsi? Like, way back when? Yeah, neither did I.

Anyway, part of the problem is that if you're not part of the problem you're part of the solution. You gotta serve somebody. And THAT, as far as I can tell, just sucks.

What was I talking about?

Oh yeah, did anyone get what they wanted? I'm happy. I got a real nice sweater -- two, in fact -- and some books. And CD's. Books -- here, let me see -- Galileo's Daughter, that looks interesting, and Susan Blackmore's so-far-out-there-that-even-Dawkins-is-scratching-his-head book about Memes. And this cool graphic novel, David Boring (hopefully it's even half as good as the brilliant Jimmy Corrigan:Smartest Kid in the World).

CD's? The new King Cobb Steelie (my favorite Canadian band), Air and Smoker's Delight, Nightmares on Wax. They're trying to turn me into a raver or something.

And you? What'd YOU get?

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Date: Tues, Dec 26, 2000 at 21:05:51 (GMT)
From: ham
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Air/Nightmares on wax makes a raver?
Message:
You crack me up sometimes, you really ought to get out more,
chillout shit man, even if of the highest quality
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Date: Wed, Dec 27, 2000 at 02:47:18 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: ham
Subject: Ha! You fell for my trap, Ham -- nya nya nya!
Message:
I knew exactly what I was doing when I dropped that malapropism on you, Ham. And now .... now, bud, you are mine! Captured in vinyl, you can no longer move your feet. There is no antidote. Sorry.

Hey, guess what. Laurie and I went snowboarding today up here in Whistler where we're visiting her kids who are working here this winter. Laurie was great; I sucked. The boarding was one thing -- I'm okay at that, they say. But I kept falling and couldn't get up.

Gotta work out or give it all up.

Off to the hot tub ......

English DJ tonight, Ham. Hope he plays some Led Zepplin and all my other breakbeat fav's.

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Date: Wed, Dec 27, 2000 at 19:11:03 (GMT)
From: Steve Quint
Email: the_avenger55@hotmail.com
To: Jim
Subject: I Looked Up Breakbeat In My Scrabble Dictionary
Message:
Here's a weird definition if I've ever seen one from Encarta (www.dictionary.msn.com):

break·beat [bráyk bt ] noun
popular music drum pattern: a drum pattern with a syncopated beat that is electronically looped, used mostly in jungle, drum and bass, and hard-core music

Electronically looped and used in jungle music? Sounds a bit like m's using high technology to spew out his drivel.

Love the zep. AC/DC rules. Robert Plant is the prince.

Steve

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Date: Wed, Dec 27, 2000 at 06:37:08 (GMT)
From: ham
Email: ham@hamzen.freeserve.co.uk
To: Jim
Subject: Luv ya, ya bugger
Message:
Must admit I was fifty fifty when replying, since you did go to a rave in la once methought!,
ahh well, what can one say, once a know all trainspotter, always a know all trainspotter.

But whoever got you the Air and Nightmares on Wax knows their stuff, big up to them.

And since you'll probably always stay an unreconstituted alt rocker til the day of your death, check out John Peel on
http://www.bbc.co.uk/radio1/inside_r1/schedules.shtml,
top banana, if you do visit there know you'll love Peely's music tastes and his dry wit, check out Fabio/Grooverider for some dark d&bass, and Gilles Peterson for that classier slightly jazzy house shit, a la Masters at Work, etc.

If you fancy some real underground shit check
http://interface.pirate-radio.co.uk/, the real mccoy.

Did you enjoy the snowboarding? A mate of mine in her thirties is getting into it bigtime at the mo, real sales job, she went thru similar stuff as you but got past that stage and LOVES it.
There's hope for us yet, the generation that refused to grow up.

Say hello to Laurie for us, she's got to be a good 'un to put up with you!

And as soon as I get those tapes off to ya, expect an x-flies cd back ya know.

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Date: Mon, Dec 25, 2000 at 20:06:21 (GMT)
From: Stonor
Email: None
To: gerry
Subject: 'Ho ho ho' - that's what I've been missing!!
Message:
Thanks Santa Gerry for that jovial vibe! And thanks for the cut and paste job and the link too!

Ho, ho, ho, and a Merry Mitrasmas to you and Patty and your cat too!

All the best in 2001!

Love Anna

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Date: Mon, Dec 25, 2000 at 22:39:04 (GMT)
From: Salam
Email: None
To: Stonor
Subject: Wasn't santa a black fellow?
Message:
I thought maybe you knew. As for what gerry said, try saying that to CNN and FOXTEL. They do not give a monkeys' uncle if it was. But then if the Mithras religion had few billion subscribers, they may decide to change the balance.
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Date: Tues, Dec 26, 2000 at 05:05:02 (GMT)
From: Stonor
Email: None
To: Salam
Subject: Black Peter?
Message:
There are a least 5 pretenders to the throne of the 'Coca Cola' Santa Claus of today. There was Saint Nicholas, Befana, Baboucka, Santa Star and Black Peter. Don't know what happened to Kris Kringle - probably another fabrication. Do your own searches, I don't have much of a clue about any of them. And I don't believe 'Santa Claus' was ever canonized by the Catholic Church ;-) The sentiment might be fleetingly beautiful, but the reality is too often a nightmare for too many. It has been used as a carrot and stick - hardly ok. I also think it feeds the desire for 'things' and all too often creates an annual manic event in the lives of those at a highly impressionable age, that generally lingers for the rest of people's lives.

Blah, blah, blah ... don't get me going - it's over for this year!

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Date: Tues, Dec 26, 2000 at 05:45:36 (GMT)
From: Salam
Email: None
To: Stonor
Subject: I can understand that
Message:
It's OK, won't mention the buggers' name again.
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Date: Tues, Dec 26, 2000 at 07:04:35 (GMT)
From: Stonor
Email: None
To: Salam
Subject: Thanks, but a couple more comments ...
Message:
(yes, I should be in bed)

This question reminds me of two experiences I had with the 'apparent' conversion of people to their conquerer's faith.

Once was in Lima. While there I noticed how many churches there were, and how many people crossed themselves as they passed one. A university professor who said that he was part of the 'Sendero Luminoso' (Shining Path Guerillas), lent me a book about Incan mythology. In it I read about Viracocha, the 'God' with a red beard that came to them from across the ocean and brought them great teachings, promising to return. When the Spaniards came to their shores, they welcomed them with open arms, thinking it to be the return of Viracocha, only to be socially 'desquartizadoed' (drawn and quartered) - their 'head', wisemen, were killed, etc. Soon after reading about this I realized that one of the new 'expansions' of the city was called 'Viracocha'. I asked a woman who was definitely not part of even their middle class about Viracocha, and her whole body reacted as she told me in a hushed tone that he was GOD.

The second incident was during a teaching of second languages conference in Montreal. Chief Starblanket from Saskatchewan was there, and some of the participants had invited him to join them for lunch. It turned out that I was the only one who engaged him in conversation (weird). When he found out I had been in South America, he asked me if I could explain to him why so many people in the street would speak to him in Spanish. I told him that Spanish was probably their second language, even if they had lost their first native language as so many native Canadians had. He understood perfectly. The conversation then turned to 'religion' and he immediately(reflexively) said that he was Catholic. As the conversation continued, he opened up more about his native faith.

I think you'll understand what I'm talking about here ... I've seen this transposition live, while it is happening - it's all muddy waters, but you can sift for gold.

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Date: Tues, Dec 26, 2000 at 04:24:33 (GMT)
From: Mickey the Pharisee
Email: None
To: Salam and Gerry
Subject: Wasn't santa a black fellow?
Message:
Actually, St. Nicholas was a Turkish fellow. The celebration of Christmas on December 25th didn't come along until the fourth century, probably in opposition to the Roman feast of Nativi Sol Invictis, or the birth of the Sun of Rightousness.
Clement, the third century bishop of Alexandria, believed that Jesus was born on May 20th.
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Date: Tues, Dec 26, 2000 at 09:53:15 (GMT)
From: janet
Email: None
To: Mickey the Pharisee
Subject: astrologically/astronomically, may 20 fits...
Message:
i have a site that reconstructs it according to known timetables
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Date: Tues, Dec 26, 2000 at 10:39:13 (GMT)
From: JohnT
Email: None
To: janet
Subject: aaaarrrrggggghhhhhh! No! Don't say that! Please!!!
Message:
May 20th is my birthday. I don't wanna share it. Look, my sister Lyn was born on 25th December, so I know what a bummer it is to share one's aniversary with JC.

Couldn't ya just scramble round those old star maps a tad, please Janet? It's not as if anyone would notice...

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Date: Mon, Dec 25, 2000 at 08:12:04 (GMT)
From: No statute of limitations
Email: None
To: Jim and EVERYONE
Subject: M is responsibe for what he did in India, RE: DEAD
Message:
Jim you said:

Date: Sun, Dec 24, 2000 at 10:41:41 Sun, Dec 24, 2000 at 18:41:41 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: No statute of limitations
Subject: Your terminology's confused, fella
Message:

I have said: 'Also note that, MURDER is the unlawful taking of a human life and it is up to the Courts and or Legal System to determine if it was intentional in the first degree or too what degree if any he was culpable, his culpability is to be determined in a court of Law and not in your Crystal Ball.
GET IT!'
That's simply untrue. Listen, I work in the field. I should know, eh? No big deal but that IS the way it is, isn't it? You learn the terms of your trade and, fella, 'murder' is the wrong word here. Live with it.

///////////////////////////////////End of you////////////////////

///////////////////////Now I speak/////////////////////////////

Ho Ho Ho, lol, lol, lol………………

Confused FELLA you are, as well as being a pompous asss. You assume that because you, “work in the field”, as you say, and can print out the word, (is) in capital letters, IS, as if that will make your assumption and or assumptions true is not only wrong but it is laughable. You may be a Supreme Court Justice, it would still be wrong of you to put forth your SPIN of what I put forth without actually you making a legally sound presentation with facts correctly stated and not out of context, and to then proffer evidence such as case law that sustains your belief your argument, this so far you have not done fella and so your are dismissed. Live with it.

And not that you care, but for anyone else that may be looking in…… What I said in the full context, ( the four corners of the document as the saying goes ) of my usage of the word murder, was too the FACT that when a person dies, the Legal system first must determine as to the cause of death, such as heart attack, old age, running himself in front of a car and committing suicide, having someone hit him with the car that they are driving on the same road with him while he is on a bike and they do so out of some sort of negligence or on purpose, they the Legal system, “THE POLICE”, they open up what is called a CASE and in this CASE the paper work they put down as to what they come to understand as the cause of DEATH, well INITALLY, it is a possible MURDER CASE until it is ruled out, GET IT FELLA!!! The one, (Jim), who works in the field! So in this CASE this information that has come forth that we all now speculate on, has at its beginnings the fact that the man purportedly who is no longer ALIVE, was found to have died not by an act of MURDER, but by what was the manufactured story that was invented at that time, which we now understand was a fabrication. And so if you can still follow this, (you fella who is in the field), this untrue story this LIE, that of how the man DIED, then what happens if this CASE is reopened, or should I say “OPENED CORRECTLY FOR THE FIRST TIME?” as it seems it should be………Well as I see it, it opens with the police the Legal System asking first if indeed there was a MURDER committed. And that as I have stated is a question for the Courts and or Legal system.

So fella I would say not only do you have a problem with YOUR terminology, but for one who is working in the field you sure are a weird one to take as a given that that means you must be holier than thou or whatever crap you are attempting to put forth that means you are right.

I think many of us here have just been witness to one or more United States Supreme Court Justices be in complete disagreement with one or more other United States Supreme Court Justices. That demonstrates that being in the field of law now matter how high does not mean that that person is the holder of the TRUTH and or has the ALL KNOWING OF WHAT IS WHAT.

So my point above still stands, it is a MURDER INVESTIGATION FIRST, AND UNTILL LEGALLY IT IS NOT.

And I believe that there is not a statute of limitations on MURDER, even in India.

. lol

So confused, fella, I would say maybe you should find another line of work.

. lol


The attempt from those sanctimonious ones who work in the temples, (courts and or legal system), of the supreme truth knowing and understand as to what is and what, (the real truth), “lol” are not any more human and or divine in putting forth an argument that is or is not accepted by the people, a jury if you will and YES, that is the true system for better or worse that is a basic foundation at least in this country America that decides what is or is not the fact or facts and or truth. And the jury is not one of only certain and or HOLY special people, but of the cross section of all people.

.

.

So Jim how about them APPLES!

.

lol

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Date: Mon, Dec 25, 2000 at 20:06:49 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: No statute of limitations
Subject: Funny, I thought you WERE a supreme ct judge
Message:
You know, the way you were talking and everything, I thought you WERE a high priest in the evil temple of so-called justice in the tower of babylon. I thought I recognized the secret handshake.

..... but now you say you're NOT? You're NOT a corrupt stakeholder in the mad slaughterhouse of power abuse and venality? Okay, I get it ......

but tell me, how in the world did you possibly learn so MUCH? I mean, you're right in there, dude, like the way they open a CASE and everything. Who told you that? You didn't just learn that on tv, I know that much. So where'd you get that?

Much respect, don't let anyone ever persuade you that rhetoric can be confusing, even dangerous. Follow your truth, man, and Merry Christmas.

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Date: Tues, Dec 26, 2000 at 02:41:10 (GMT)
From: No statute of limitations
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: The sound of one hand clapping
Message:
A word to the wise should be sufficient.


.
.

And a Merry Hanukkah to you.

.

lol

Not that I am or am not a Hebrew.

.
.

B.T.W.: You said, 'Follow your truth, man.'


I would say follow the truth the you come to understand as the truth, until it no longer is the truth for you.


.

End of transmission.


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Date: Tues, Dec 26, 2000 at 23:26:31 (GMT)
From: Roger eDrek
Email: drek@oz.net
To: No statute of limitations
Subject: Jim, NSOL has got you - you lose!
Message:
Jim, I'm sorry to inform you that I agree with NSOL and I am henceforth going to stop sending you the retainer fee that we agreed on.

Perhaps, it's time to quit your day job, Jim.

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Date: Wed, Dec 27, 2000 at 02:48:54 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Roger eDrek
Subject: I can't read your post, Rog -- it's too painful
Message:
I'm gonna go in deep denial on this one.

So how's the weather in San Diego?

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Date: Wed, Dec 27, 2000 at 04:00:40 (GMT)
From: Roger eDrek
Email: drek@oz.net
To: Jim
Subject: Actually, I'm in Camarillo, California now
Message:
Oh, it's a little windy now, but it's warm. And those fires, oh my!

Yup, you're all washed up now, Jim. The Victoria legal community will never really accept you now. I mean with that photo shoot at the airport I did of you with 'that' woman on that not-so secret weekend getaway and now this where you've been completely unmasked or unwigged as they say in the Queen's courts.

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Date: Wed, Dec 27, 2000 at 05:40:41 (GMT)
From: Roger eDrek
Email: drek@oz.net
To: Roger eDrek
Subject: And get this!
Message:
I am actually working at a company here in the area where a practicing premie works. I don't think that he/she remembers me, but I remember him/her (I won't say which.)
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Date: Thurs, Dec 28, 2000 at 03:34:11 (GMT)
From: TED Farkel
Email: None
To: Roger eDrek
Subject: Mr. eDrek, you could get 'born again'....
Message:
Dear Mr. eDrek-

Forgive me for butting into your business, but since you are experiencing a little bit of 'mind', mr. e drek, maybe this could be looked at as a bit of 'synchronicity'(like that feller sting sings about, but we all know he stole it from C.G. Jung, who really stole it from our gumaraji, even though Jung lived and died before gumaraji came here, oh well...)...

Well like I was saying, maybe you could fake a little interest in that knowledge that your fellow employee knows so much about, and have them take you to a video.....

Now being a computer freak, after you go to the first video, you could tell that premie that you were so inspired by the video, you decided to go the internet to find out more, and lo and behold, you found a half naked fat indian guy with huge boobs dancing late one night...might make for some interestin lunch time talk, plus a little reflection for that premie...

Me, I'm waitin for ole Dave Smith...cleaning out the loft, washing the shop floor, cleaning up the 12' black and white shop tv...ah, life is good....got a 24 pack of walmart beer, just dropped it in the pond out back to chill it for dave's friday night visit...yup, life is good....

TED Farkel
dv premie

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Date: Wed, Dec 27, 2000 at 16:04:49 (GMT)
From: ham
Email: None
To: Roger eDrek
Subject: That's too good an opportunity to miss Roger
Message:
You could like, urgh, show some interest.

Can you imagine the wind up opportunities,
as a serious searcher after truth and the meaning of life!

Premies are so lonely now, they'd love the chance to try to guide you in, might be a good test of the present prpagation tecxhniques now that that's high on his agenda again.

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Date: Wed, Dec 27, 2000 at 19:47:00 (GMT)
From: Roger eDrek
Email: drek@oz.net
To: ham
Subject: Infiltrate the cult! It's a suicide mission!
Message:
But, it might worth a try. I mean right here in Maharaji's own backyard. Hmmm...
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Date: Mon, Dec 25, 2000 at 14:53:19 (GMT)
From: shp
Email: None
To: No statute of limitations
Subject: There's terminology and then there's meaning
Message:
Dear NSOL,

One of the Ten Commandments that were given to the Jews by Moses
from the Creator (Moses's interpretation of his divine contact) is 'Thou Shalt Not Kill'. I always had a thing with that one, especially being a child of the 60's - Peace and Love and so forth - not to even kill an ant on the sidewalk??) so I investigated what the meaning of the commandment really was intended to be from the ancient texts.

'Thou Shalt Not Kill' refers to wanton, premeditated murder.
All the other ways someone or some critter can be killed is not murder in the eyes or heart of the orginator of the Law.

What troubles me more than the accident itself, which could have happened to any of us, is the fact that it was covered up. That goes to another one of the Ten Commandments, 'Thou Shalt Not Bear False Witness'. I have more trouble with knowing that Maharaji allowed it to be covered it up than the accident itself, which as I said, could have happened to anyone.

I have always been very honest with my sons, even when it made me look bad to them for something I had to admit about myself. But I have never lied to them. I think they respect and trust me more for knowing that I won't lie to them, and their respect is greater than if I had lied to cover up something about myself, only to have them grow up and discover the ugly truth about me later and realize I had put up a facade of who I was all their childhood just to impress and control them.

I always wanted my sons to know they could come to at least one person in this world and get the truth, and appropriately I would say, from their father. That was the relationship I thought I had with Maharaji. Now he says all he does is show folks how to practice Knowledge and he's just another average guy, with coffers full of treasure from a prior incarnation in which he claimed to be more than just an average guy.

How can an average regular guy with no divine powers own something that vibrates inside us all? One minute, he's got a hold and ownership on the primordial vibration inside everyone
and he's way more than just a regular guy, and the next minute he's just a regular guy...

God bless us all today, even those we don't understand and whose ways we dispise and question. This whole life we are in is definitely somebody's play, and I'd really like to be able to see and hang out with whoever is the Ultimate executive producer and director (or an obviously authentic designated representative) of this play we are all in, up close and personal, and maybe even get a backstage pass. I'll let you know if I get my wish granted. Enjoy yourselves and each other.

Happy Holidays,

Sandy

PS We can can live our lives pushing away the past or reaching for the future. Whole different sets of muscle groups, both esoteric, mental, emotional, psychic and physical get worked, depending on how we exercise our chi. May all our lives become
Feng Shui, in harmony with Chi.

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Date: Thurs, Dec 28, 2000 at 15:47:17 (GMT)
From: hamzen
Email: None
To: shp
Subject: There's always another possibility shp
Message:
That we are all god and there's no seperate being as such, in which case by looking elsewhere you're not acknowledging god, which is how we ended up believing gm's hogwash.

Just a thought for ya.

Nice to see you coming to terms with all of this at last.

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Date: Fri, Dec 29, 2000 at 01:12:46 (GMT)
From: shp
Email: None
To: hamzen
Subject: There's always another possibility shp
Message:
'That we are all god and there's no seperate being as such, in which case by looking elsewhere you're not acknowledging god, which is how we ended up believing gm's hogwash.

Just a thought for ya.

Nice to see you coming to terms with all of this at last.' -ham

Hi hamzen,

I knew before I met Maharaji that we are all God thanks to some very high experiences, some really good acid back in the old days and some very good friends. That does not discount the possibility in my way of seeing it that there can be one of us who is the 'speaker' or the 'spokesperson', so to speak.
The big Co-ordinator. Maharaji blows all my concepts of what that co-ordinator would be like and what his life would exemplify and causes me to seriously question the whole package. No offense to him or anyone who unquestioningly believes him. I choose to stand back and look at this from the most solid place in me, and try to understand it all. I find it hard to believe that it's all nothing but a dollar driven con job...there has to be more behind it, or else I have overestimated the intelligence of the human race and my own as well.

I am coming to terms, but by no means totally resolved to date.

Have a good 2001 celebration and a safe one.

Sandy

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Date: Mon, Dec 25, 2000 at 23:27:01 (GMT)
From: No statute of limitations
Email: None
To: shp
Subject: There's meaning and then there's meaning
Message:
Dear shp

First of all, {HI} and have a wonderful 2001.


You say: 'I investigated what the meaning of the commandment really was intended to be from the ancient texts.'

And then you quote, well not quote, but put forth your finding with the inclusion of two principle words, they being, (wanton and premeditated). ..... You wrote:
'Thou Shalt Not Kill' refers to wanton, premeditated murder.

.
.
First I will say, we can all look at scriptural text and or LEGAL TEXT as per what is what, and each has its place.
.
.
.

I concur with the first word, (wanton), but the second word (premeditated) has a number of problems associated with it that become a very slipper slop type of thing, and so for the moment an so as to not get very wordy here, lol, I will just leave that aside for the time being. Now let us look at the word, 'wanton', and I see it has some interesting usages such as, 'arising from recklessness or disregard of right or consequences', YES that sounds right!

THAT SOUNDS VERY RIGHT.

.

Happy Holidays,

.
.
P.S.

May we even go beyond the wonderful concept of harmony and seek joy, understanding, bliss, and whatever else that brings one closer to ones truer self, even if it may seem to be unharmonious to some, lol.

All the BEST.....................

And it may not be harmonious to what is being said here, but as it is Xmas I hope that you do not mind too much if I end by saying, HO HO HO..........(lol)

Sort of a Santa Claus type thing, not that I believe in Santa.

Again, Happy Holidays.........................

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Date: Mon, Dec 25, 2000 at 09:07:26 (GMT)
From: No statute of limitations
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: M is res.....Addendum.....and an aside, for Stoner
Message:
I misspelled the word, INITIALLY, I spelled it INITALLY, which is wrong, it should be, {INITIALLY}.

//////////////////////////END///////////////////////////////////


And now on an, ASIDE.

Stoner you said:

Date: Sun, Dec 24, 2000 at 08:31:01
From: Stonor
Email: None
To: No statute of limitations
Subject: As it is ..................
Message:
Hi No statute of limitations,
Yes, it's true that to some extent we appear to have freedom of choice and can be arbiters of what we accept as truth or fiction, that is, when our cultural and personal 'preferences' are not operating, which seems rare, IMHO. How often are we automatonic 'slaves' as opposed to 'sovereign sentient beings'?

'Whatever-It-Is' is 'GOD'. And yes, in one sense at least, we all are part of 'Whatever-It-Is' IMHO, but .........

All the best to you in 2001!

Anna

////////////////// END OF YOUR POST////////////////////////


///////////NOW I SPEAK//////////////////////////////

Hi,

All the best to you also in 2001!

Regarding your thoughts on GOD and Humans relationship with that that you refer to as, ''Whatever-It-Is' is 'GOD'', well that is your present thinking. And that is that.


Since you presented this concept of yours to me, I will only respond now with out getting into a lengthy discourse, by simply saying that I would not say what you said, as I perceive the general concept in a different fashion.


Again, All the best to you in 2001!

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Date: Mon, Dec 25, 2000 at 17:23:17 (GMT)
From: Stonor
Email: None
To: No statute of limitations
Subject: Thanks for your response,No statute of limitations
Message:
If you ever feel like talking about it, I would be interested in knowing how you 'perceive the general concept in a different fashion.'

And isn't Sandy's post wonderful?

Anna

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Date: Mon, Dec 25, 2000 at 19:46:11 (GMT)
From: Oliver
Email: None
To: Rawat
Subject: And isn't Sandy's post wonderful?
Message:
On a par with his usual high standard. But, I would have ignored the turkey. Too many words, mostly gobbledeegook.

Rawat appears to have broken the eleventh commandment:-
Thou shalt not get found out.

All his chickens are coming home to roost and the hen house is yet to be enlarged. Something about a delay in the arrival of the imported Italian marble. The first batch was adjudged to be the wrong shade of blue. Reminds me of his first little shelter at Amaroo. But that's another story.

BTW, I hope all Aussies caught the Xmas Compass special on ABCTV last night on the subject of Oz and it's particular flavour of spiritualism. Top stuff and God I'm grateful for having been born an Aussie.

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Date: Mon, Dec 25, 2000 at 13:49:52 (GMT)
From: Oliver
Email: None
To: No statute of limitations
Subject: Who is this turkey? (nt)
Message:
gobbledegoop. ie. too many words.
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Date: Sun, Dec 24, 2000 at 19:49:18 (GMT)
From: Kelly
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: Happy Christmas if you can
Message:
To my new found friends
I wish you all the very, very best of ,the spirit of christmas, the very special,the quite unidentifiable and undefinable spirit of life. I wish you all the magic there is.
And thanks to the deep heartfelt surging of the spirit that brought me here. I know that you know what I mean., thank god!
Once again, thank you for this forum. Thanks for the truth that set me free.
love to you all
Kelly
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Date: Sun, Dec 24, 2000 at 22:53:18 (GMT)
From: Selene
Email: None
To: Kelly
Subject: thanks Kelly and happy holidays to all
Message:
It is a good feeling isn't it?
ps thanks Joe for the msg. below, for reminding me of how I found this forum and how it helped.
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Date: Mon, Dec 25, 2000 at 01:08:09 (GMT)
From: SB
Email: None
To: Selene and all
Subject: Yes it is
Message:
HAPPY HOLIDAYS TO YOU ALL Especially to you Selene.

Love,

SB

PS: Not to Rawat, of course. He can keep on suffering, until he decides to free the premies.

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Date: Sun, Dec 24, 2000 at 22:42:01 (GMT)
From: Sir Dave
Email: None
To: Kelly
Subject: Happy Christmas if you can
Message:
It's strange that you never hear people saying that they wish they hadn't been told the truth about Maharaji. That's very telling.

* Merry Christmas *

.. Dave

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Date: Sun, Dec 24, 2000 at 20:47:55 (GMT)
From: hal
Email: None
To: Kelly
Subject: Lovely message - happy X to you too nt
Message:
nt
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Date: Sun, Dec 24, 2000 at 20:52:18 (GMT)
From: happy X
Email: None
To: hal
Subject: Dettmers stories really are freeing-nt
Message:
sdh
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Date: Sun, Dec 24, 2000 at 21:02:57 (GMT)
From: very merry exness
Email: None
To: happy X
Subject: very happy exmaster to all nt
Message:
nt
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Date: Mon, Dec 25, 2000 at 04:55:12 (GMT)
From: Helen
Email: None
To: all
Subject: happy christmas to all
Message:
Hope 2001 is everyone's best year ever. I wish you all courage to do the things you always dreamed of doing before you put your dreams on hold to follow a mean little trickster named maharaji.
Love
helen
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Date: Sun, Dec 24, 2000 at 18:00:58 (GMT)
From: cq
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: Does the Maha send Xmas cards?
Message:
Does the Maha send Xmas cards?

If he does, then this year's bunch to us exes might include:

The Maha-Martyr official version,

and

what he'd really like to say.

*
*
*
Happy hols, folks!

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Date: Sun, Dec 24, 2000 at 18:03:59 (GMT)
From: cq
Email: None
To: all
Subject: what he'd REALLY like to say to us ...
Message:
click here (this one's worth a look)
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Date: Sun, Dec 24, 2000 at 21:25:24 (GMT)
From: Sir Dave
Email: None
To: cq
Subject: What I'd like to say is this
Message:
The Yanks might not understand the two fingered salute. After all, they think that Agincourt is a sport and a long bow is what someone does before the Queen.

I really like these altered pics and I feel that appreciation for knowing I've made a home for them. Keep 'em coming!

By the way, did you know that in America it's not PC to say, 'Merry Christmas'? I know, crazy isn't it.

That's why they're all saying 'Happy Holidays'. But in Britain, it's OK to say

* Merry Christmas *

.. Dave

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Date: Wed, Dec 27, 2000 at 16:22:11 (GMT)
From: cq
Email: None
To: Sir Dave
Subject: Yo, and to you Sir Dave (burp)...
Message:
Well, there goes another turkey ...
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Date: Mon, Dec 25, 2000 at 05:20:22 (GMT)
From: Steve Quint
Email: the_avenger55@hotmail.com
To: Sir Dave
Subject: Don't Confuse Respect With Political Correctness
Message:
Not everyone is Christian. It's only polite to wish someone a happy holiday or the like if you're not sure whether they're Christian or not.

Steve

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Date: Mon, Dec 25, 2000 at 19:12:36 (GMT)
From: gerry
Email: None
To: Steve Quint
Subject: Yeah Dave...
Message:
I finally found something I can believe in and it hurts my spiritual feelings to be excluded in this the holy high time of the year for those of us who worship Mithras
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Date: Mon, Dec 25, 2000 at 18:20:19 (GMT)
From: Sir Dave
Email: sirdavid12@hotmail.com
To: Steve Quint
Subject: The origin of Christmas
Message:
I know not everyone is a Christian but the fact remains it is Christmas and everyone knows it.

So why pretend it's something else? I have a Muslim friend and I wouldn't expect him to call Ramadan something else.

Actually, 'Christmas' existed long before Christians came upon the scene. It was the Pagan Mid-winter festival or Yuletide. A celibration of the Winter solstace when the days started to get longer again. Nothing to do with Christianity.

The Christian church borrowed it to convert the Pagan festival into a Christian one. The same was done with Easter, I believe.

And let's face it, most people don't regard it as a Christian religious festival anyway. Christmas is synonomous with 'Father Christmas' and presents and eating too much food. That goes with the original Yuletide Midwinter festival and has nothing to do with Christianity. It's pure Pagan.

.. Dave

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Date: Mon, Dec 25, 2000 at 18:28:53 (GMT)
From: Sir Dave
Email: None
To: All
Subject: And here's the history link
Message:
It was celibrated throughout the Northern Hemisphere a long time ago.

The Truth about Christmas

See the history of it from an Icelandic point of view. The Vikings celibrated Christmas too.

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Date: Mon, Dec 25, 2000 at 20:09:38 (GMT)
From: Stonor
Email: None
To: Sir Dave
Subject: Thanks for that link Sir Dave!
Message:
I've forwarded it to my (Jewish) sister to help her give a less commercial story of Yule to her two children! (Wish my dad had a computer, he'd enjoy it too, but I will show it to him when he comes by for lunch one of these days!)
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Date: Mon, Dec 25, 2000 at 02:06:43 (GMT)
From: Bazza
Email: None
To: Sir Dave
Subject: I'm trying, Sir Dave /OT
Message:
I've been this side of the pond for about 11 years, and I insist on saying 'Merry Christmas and a Happy New Year'. I agree Happy Holidays sounds so naff - and they start saying it round about Thanksgiving onwards.

On my website I have links to the British Monarchy, all the British Armed Forces, and a bunch of other British sites. I have to keep a straight face when I meet an American for the first time, and he or she says 'Gee your British, my grandfather/great uncle/wife's cousin's grandmother's sister was from England.' Usually followed by asking if I knew them! Oh sure, I know ALL 65 million people on the island!

Anyway, a

Merry Christmas

to you too!!

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Date: Mon, Dec 25, 2000 at 04:19:13 (GMT)
From: Stonor
Email: None
To: Bazza and Sir Dave
Subject: Merry Christmas to the Brits!
Message:
Saying/writing 'Happy Holidays' has nothing to do with 'PC' considerations at my end - just don't like to assume what anyone is! My sister and her family is Jewish, my students are often Buddhist, or Muslim or ... it just simplifies things.

And a Merry Mithrasmas to you all too!

(I'm a little late to wish you a Happy Solstice ;-)

Anna

(Bah! Humbug! The whole intensely/falsely happy/smily thing tires me out anyways.)

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Date: Mon, Dec 25, 2000 at 04:52:01 (GMT)
From: Bazza
Email: None
To: Stonor
Subject: Merry Christmas to the Yanks /OT
Message:
Well I sort of disagree Stonor about the dilemma. I mean sure, maybe you don't know what religion the person is, but that doesnt change the fact that it IS Christmas, whether you follow Christ or not, so I think its ok to say Merry Christmas. Otherwise I'd feel offended if someone wished me a 'Happy Fourth of July', because, you know, we lost our biggest colony!!

But then I agree about the general phoney niceness of it all - took me a while to stop barfing when waiters and shopkeepers gave me the customary 'Have a Nice Day' parting remark.

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Date: Mon, Dec 25, 2000 at 05:29:36 (GMT)
From: Stonor
Email: None
To: Bazza
Subject: I'm NOT a 'yank'!! /OT
Message:
Ok, so it's Christmas Eve, and I'm spending it alone, as usual, but that has NOTHING to do with ANYTHING! CANADA is the 'biggest' colony you lost, and you still have a whole continent to lose if you haven't lost it already. AND you recently lost one of your biggest populations in Hong Kong (we have so much fun in my class sometimes comparing population densities between Hong Kong and Canada)! Ah well, easy come, easy go, right?

I guess around now I should download my RealPlayer Christmas gift! Ahhh, what the hell, timing isn't everything! I usually celebrate Christmas in July or something, and I already celebrated Chinese New Year a few months ago (remember Sir Dave?!).

Did you know that Coca Cola is responsible for our current 'image' of Santa? (and that it used to contain 'coca' or cocaine, and that cola means 'line' in Spanish). And that the reindeer contribute to the growth of Amanita Muscaria/fly agaric, and that the red and white colours and appearance of that particularly 'poisonous' mushroom might have something to do with the red and white of 'Santa's' costume?

Maybe I should wish you a Cool Yule, like CQ?

Anna

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Date: Mon, Dec 25, 2000 at 12:01:36 (GMT)
From: Salam
Email: None
To: Stonor
Subject: I'm NOT a 'yank'!! /OT
Message:
Doesn't the new world order also mean christinization and x-masization of everyone. How are the conglomerates gonna benefit, if 1 billion Indians are hindu, 850 million are muslims and I do not know how many Buddhists in China.

But I guess 35 million x-mas trees cut in the US is only part of being happy, no worries, who cares about the 20% contribution of green gas anyway, will talk about it after turkey.

Salam the spoil sport.

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Date: Mon, Dec 25, 2000 at 17:30:49 (GMT)
From: Stonor
Email: None
To: Salam
Subject: Isn't that the old world order .... (OT)
Message:
We should run out of things to consume soon enough at the rate we're going ... maybe then there will be a new world order.

(I try not to get too negative about Christmas - I let my sister take care of that - but I agree with you 100%.)

Anna

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Date: Sun, Dec 24, 2000 at 13:02:59 (GMT)
From: kap
Email: qwerty@pdai.com
To: Everyone
Subject: friendship ranch up dates
Message:
still open to interested parties .we are purchasing a ranch for expremies for vacations and retirement .(MIGHT BE FUN )i have seen land advertised near cedar city utah for 10 acres 1000 down owner will carry total price 20000 $ . could we do it ? think it over a nice place to retire with spiritually oriented friends . but you guys from northern california would have to travel highway 50 to get there wow . now thats a spiritual test in itself.this is a humanitarian project mainly to aid premies who gave all to rawat and might be suffering in their retirement years .im ok but it seems others were sucked in bad . id like to hear some stories about that .my main point is i always liked most premies but they were always so fixated on guru dad that they never related with each other in a normal way . hey any ex premies from santa cruz 74 era drop me a line . this ranch would be a good halfway house for those who are dropping out now. hey they must need some phycological support .imagine after many years as a slave being freed .used to communal living and a daddy guru figure to think for them then they see its all crap .i mean they must go threw withdrawal symtems i did. lets have some comments on this .
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Date: Wed, Dec 27, 2000 at 15:57:10 (GMT)
From: Scott T.
Email: None
To: kap
Subject: friendship ranch up dates
Message:
kap:

Actually, I don't think there is anything essentially wrong with small socialist communities where individuals know one another. A number of them have been quite successful in their own terms. The issue would be how the community deals with the *outside* with it's predominantly 'market' orientation. That's a big hurdle, but not insurmountable. Take a look at successful communities and do what they did. Don't copy the religious orders, BTW. Look for something more low key and secular. The organization of ex-hippies that runs the 'Oregon Country Fair' would be one example. That is a hugely successful enterprise.

--Scott

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Date: Mon, Dec 25, 2000 at 21:28:38 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: kap
Subject: Why not just a little euthanasia?
Message:
kap,

If Highway 50 is really that hard to drive, wouldn't it be easier to just find a local resource for taking care of ruined premies?

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Date: Sun, Dec 24, 2000 at 22:38:48 (GMT)
From: Sir Dave
Email: sirdavid12@hotmail.com
To: kap
Subject: friendship ranch up dates
Message:
A good idea if you have some money to do it and can live there with some friends. However, like any small tribe, it eventually will develope a leader or leaders, politics, rules, standards and everthing else that exists in the big wide world - only it will be in minature.

If it's some kind of retreat, it could work well. Then of course, you can become a capitalist and charge money for business people to stay there.

You would need a clear idea which is shared by a group of like minded people for it to work. But this is the stuff that dreams are made of and they can sometimes come true.

* Merry Christmas *

.. Dave

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Date: Sun, Dec 24, 2000 at 20:57:02 (GMT)
From: The warden
Email: None
To: all
Subject: Our retirement home
Message:
Anyone who is interested can apply for a retirement place in our home. We offer spliffs, Jimi Hendrix , The Floyd- played as background music. Caring helpers all trained in psychedelic era speak. Maharishi videos, TM ,. Re runs of Woodstock movie etc etc etc..

The only place for ageing ex premies or ex hippies..

For more info and prices contact:

The Warden
Laid Back Manor
St Ives
Cornwall
LSD 4U
England

no telephones or e mail (to keep the vibes pure man)

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Date: Tues, Dec 26, 2000 at 20:31:27 (GMT)
From: Roger eDrek
Email: drek@oz.net
To: The warden
Subject: Warden, is there going to be FREE LOVE?
Message:
I lost a lot of time in that celibate era. And now, I don't know. I mean, the spirit is willing, but the flesh is weak. However, I think I can be redeemed.
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Date: Sun, Dec 24, 2000 at 19:25:21 (GMT)
From: kelly
Email: None
To: kap
Subject: Oh for god's sake forget it! nt
Message:
nt
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Date: Sun, Dec 24, 2000 at 15:17:11 (GMT)
From: Salam
Email: None
To: kap
Subject: friendship ranch up dates
Message:
You are really into this aren't you? What is it that you are doing? Are you buying it yourself, or are you asking for money to buy it? Who will the land be legeally belonging to, i.e. the title deed? Are you intending to build something on it? When you say retirement gor exes that have suffured from rawat, how do you define that? How is paying for those exes? Also who are you? A real estate agent? A humanitarian? Or some rippoff merchants. Who is managing this place? You or a community of owners? Is this an American thing or does it spread to emcompass everyone? Like Anth asked, is their a bar, do we have to be vegitarian, do we have to listen to your crap on speakers, or can one spend all day in bed and tell you to stick it? Does one need to meditate and follow certain rules. Can we have cars? am not giving my car away for your sake. Do we need lawnmowers? Can I play music as loud as I want?(I love doing that).

What about sex, can we do that? Are gays welcomed? Do we need to be married? Is there some sort of flag. What is the place gonna be called, kapland with a heart stiched by sticky tape for logo? Will you giving medical help, in the form of mental assistance? Am a nut case, do I meet the requirements?

Ten acres is a fart in the wind. I do not want to wake up everyday to see exes around me ploting agenst rawat night and day.
Will the main shop sell coffee and smokes?

Questions question questions.

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Date: Sun, Dec 24, 2000 at 22:58:08 (GMT)
From: ex hippy ex
Email: None
To: Kap
Subject: The trouble with communities....
Message:
1 ones that are against or anti anything dont work so good

2 the group would need to be focussed on the vision and outcome

3 a healing type ranch may be ok but run by a small foccused group- maybe you could offer reservations for parts of a year- like a Cruise Ranch.
If it had the intention of helping exs- there would have to be a medical and physc staff- some of us are truly unstable.

4 a anything goes sort of place would no doubt fail because lifestyle choices may conflict. Ie- I would not want to live in a boozy environement and cant stand loud music. To ask or expect others to do the same would step on their toes- but living round that stuff steps on my 'freedom to choose vibes and air space'

just some thoughts

5 A ranch that you suggest may work if separate lots were leased -but ten acres wont go far.

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Date: Mon, Dec 25, 2000 at 13:25:38 (GMT)
From: Salam
Email: None
To: ex hippy ex
Subject: The trouble with communities....
Message:
The whole idea is bogus.

Vacation, Retirement and a healing place for people with common spiritual belives.

I have not goyt any spiritual belives.

Sound like having to push the horse and pull the carriage.

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Date: Sun, Dec 24, 2000 at 11:48:48 (GMT)
From: JTF
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: Damn it, why must rawat always win?
Message:
Thanks for all of your responses via email. Unfortunately the balloting is closed, and the winner of the annual SLIMEBALL of the YEAR AWARD(SOTYA) is....for the fourth year in a row....that's right....rawat his ownself!

For those few of you not familiar with this award, I will attempt a brief explanation. The SLIMEBALL of the YEAR AWARD(SOTYA) is given annually to that person deemed to be the lowest form of creature crawling on the planet. He must exhibit exemplary sociopathic behavior. He must demonstrate the ability to assign all blame for his shortcomings to others.

In order for this annual award to be more suspenseful, it is hereby declared that rawat is no longer eligible to win it. In fact, next year, the award will be renamed The rawat SLIMEBALL of the YEAR(rSOTYA).

There should be weekly/monthly nominations for people deserving of THE RAWAT-slang for (rSOTYA).

Thanks again for your participation,

JTF

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Date: Sun, Dec 24, 2000 at 15:21:12 (GMT)
From: Salam
Email: None
To: JTF
Subject: Great post. Love it.....nt
Message:
SOTYA
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Date: Sun, Dec 24, 2000 at 20:47:27 (GMT)
From: Kelly
Email: None
To: Salam
Subject: Yeah , but he keeps between the lines, nt
Message:
nt
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Date: Mon, Dec 25, 2000 at 13:16:04 (GMT)
From: Salam
Email: None
To: Kelly
Subject: How do you mean?.......... nt
Message:
nt
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Date: Sun, Dec 24, 2000 at 14:51:15 (GMT)
From: Steve Quint
Email: the_avenger55@hotmail.com
To: Everyone
Subject: Rawat Big Winner - Oh Yeah
Message:
Reproduced From Post Below Under 'Maharaji Killing A Man' thread of December 21, 2000.

Personally, I think Rawat has killed a lot more people through his 'satsangs' than through the alleged incident discussed here.

What I mean is that, as I reported last week after watching the recent satellite video from Katmandu, he is still going on and on about how dangerous the mind is.

I've said this many times before, but of the tens of thousands of people who've received knowledge and the trip of importance of devotion to Rawat and his speeches, a certain percentage, including myself, have had sensitive and delicate minds that should have been respected, nurtured, and given advice about how to get stronger and not raps about how to neglect and avoid their minds. Some of these people have committed suicide. Many others have experienced years of suffering. I am alive only by the grace of God and my own persistence.

JTF's awarding of 'Slimeball Of The Year' to Rawat above on Sunday, December 24 in the post entitled 'Damn it, why must Rawat always win' is an understatement. 'Slimeball Of The Millenium' might be more appropriate.

Steve

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Date: Sun, Dec 24, 2000 at 14:47:13 (GMT)
From: mamboji
Email: None
To: JTF
Subject: Witty : who created it NT
Message:
NT
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Date: Sun, Dec 24, 2000 at 01:10:11 (GMT)
From: Bazza
Email: None
To: Premie Trolls
Subject: You can run, but you can't hide
Message:
The day may soon come when the Divine spotlight shines on those annoying anonymous premie posters who come in, threaten, insult and generally make arses of themselves.

Here is an extract from the latest EFF newsletter:

Defending Anonymity

There's a new tool being used to discover the identity of anonymous Internet posters--the civil subpoena. Companies or individuals who want to know the identity of an anonymous poster have begun serving legal documents on the poster's service provider. After receiving the identity, the companies take matters into their own hands, often firing disgruntled employee posters and dropping all lawsuits.

Unlike criminal warrants, civil subpoenas do not need a showing of probable cause to be issued. In fact, in some jurisdictions,
lawsuits do not even need to be filed for a civil subpoena to be issued. Revealing the identity of anonymous critics without requiring proof of legal wrongdoing is giving companies the discretion to shut down protected speech.

While I agree with the EFF's stance on privacy, it would be useful when we have what appears to be implied threats made (against m.) by people like 'Graciousness', (Read Post) which was in a thread he/she started with a link to a bomb-making website. But even in less extreme cases, I bet EV would LOVE to know who some of you premies are, just so they can reward you for being such wonderful ambassadors of HIS love.

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Date: Sun, Dec 24, 2000 at 16:53:44 (GMT)
From: Salam
Email: None
To: Bazza
Subject: You can run, but you can't hide
Message:
The only way to track these posters is through the IP address. I did read several cases where lawsuites were taken agenist posters. Interestingly, in one case one person had 48 hours to find a lawyer to defend him because yahoo was told to revel his identity. This particular person was finding it very hard to get someone to defend him. I guess that comes under the freedom of information act.

BUT I WANT RAWAT TO COME AND GET ME BECAUSE I THINK HE AND EV SUCK. See if they can get what they want, I'd love that to happen.

p.s. you're too nice a fellow, you need to develope some alternative skills, you know what I mean.

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Date: Sun, Dec 24, 2000 at 00:40:49 (GMT)
From: Salam
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: The International Smart Card Processing Team
Message:
Just following on the last thread. It looks that all the talk about these cards paid off. EV has an update link on this

http://www.elanvital.org/smartcard.htm

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Date: Sun, Dec 24, 2000 at 20:04:11 (GMT)
From: Roger eDrek
Email: drek@oz.net
To: Salam
Subject: Smart Card = Access Control system
Message:
attach a passport type photo

Are these guys idiots or what?

Everybody must remember the days where the WPC would tail 'bongos' at programs. Well, they never stopped, did they?

And, which premie apologist told us about a year ago that EV had no security people at programs? Give me a break!

This Access Control system is really scary! You damn well better know that in the EV Smart Card database there is going to be plenty of room for additional information. There's probably an 'X-Rated' flag, a 'bongo' flag, a 'monmot' flag.

We'd better get the entire page entered into the record because eventually EV will pull it since it is too revealing.

Start Excerpt for Study and Discussion

The year 2000 was a very successful year for the Smart Card Project. As of mid-December, over 10,000 Smart Cards have been printed and mailed out.
The breakdown of Smart Cards by region is as follows (as of Nov 30, when 9511 cards had been printed):

Europe 4275
North America: 2784
Pacific 2372
South America 65
Africa 4
Central America 11

Plans are underway to collect applications and print cards for South America and Africa in the near future.

The real goal, of course, is to utilize the Smart Card in ways which offer benefits to card holders and which facilitate Elan Vital functions, such as events for people with Knowledge. Along these lines, we introduced the very first Smart Card system at the four Europe events held in September-October of 2000. This was an Access Control system. Event attendees scanned their card at an electronic card reader as they entered the event. This same system was also implemented at events held in Malaysia, Japan, and India during October-November of 2000.

Smart Cards were optional for those events. But they will be required for the Amaroo event proposed for 2001.

Currently, there is only one method to apply for a Smart Card. You need to fill in a paper application, attach a passport type photo and mail it, along with payment, to your country's Smart Card Office. We are hoping to introduce alternative methods of applying for cards in the near future.

If you need an application packet, please send your request by email to: smartcardoffice@attglobal.net

For those of you who have already applied for the Smart Card -- if your name, address, or other contact information has changed since you applied, please send your updated information to this same email address.


With warm regards,
The International Smart Card Processing Team

End Excerpt for Study and Discussion

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Date: Tues, Dec 26, 2000 at 20:46:24 (GMT)
From: suchabanana
Email: None
To: Roger eDrek
Subject: Is this,like,mark of the beast? US falling off map
Message:
I thought the idea was Spread this knowledge to every land and everyone...

It looks like North America is still falling off the map from what it once was. Africa and South America don't look so hot, either!

Is this card 666, the mark of the beast, or what?! Access Control System. Big Brother is watching you at the events!

'Subject premie 457-2247 is reaching into her pocket. Survelliance camera #2 - zoom to seat G4 mezzanine. She is pulling out a large object. Apprehend, apprehend!'

gestapo to control access: 'It was only a banana. She said she was just a little bored and hungry.'

Peace,

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Date: Wed, Dec 27, 2000 at 01:10:54 (GMT)
From: Roger eDrek
Email: drek@oz.net
To: suchabanana
Subject: gun in your pocket or are you just happy to see me
Message:
Apologies to Mae West
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Date: Sun, Dec 24, 2000 at 21:35:35 (GMT)
From: Roger eDrek
Email: drek@oz.net
To: Roger eDrek
Subject: SmartCard Application - attach passport type photo
Message:
No, no, no!

I'm just being cruel by thinking that the International Smart Card Processing Team wants pictures of premies for security purposes.

No, the real reason is so that Maharaji can put names and faces together when you meets people as he casually strolls amongst the masses or when he meets them in donut shops.

Attractive blond women, here's your opportunity to serve your Master. Take the time to make yourself look attractive in your passport type photo. Special attention will be paid if you enclose additional photos as well. Help Maharaji become a better human being, ladies. Do your part now for victory. And don't forget - loose lips sink ships.

Not only are Maharaji's 'talks' tailored specifically for each and every premie, but Maharaji, the Teacher, really wants to know each and every premie personally. Ok, many have been faithfully following Maharaji for decades and Maharaji has never even answered back with a letter one single time after you sent so many letters to him. Ok, he does send that 'thank you' letter every year if you've been a faithful benefactor.

Maharaji loves you and he wants to know you better. He cares, he really does. And that's the only reason why the International Smart Card Processing Team wants your picture - to help Maharaji help you!

You know, I'm going to sign up for that open Synchronization Coordinator of Synchronized Event Synchronization. I think I can help those people with getting the right kind of spin on these touchy subjects.

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Date: Sun, Dec 24, 2000 at 21:05:44 (GMT)
From: Kelly
Email: None
To: Roger eDrek
Subject: I was that soldier
Message:
hi, I remember those days, i woz there! and as a smart card holder i'm still there! so far they have not blown me up! but you never know.
Waiting with hands over ears
kelly
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Date: Sun, Dec 24, 2000 at 20:25:54 (GMT)
From: Bazza
Email: bshaw8@bellsouth.net
To: Roger eDrek
Subject: Smart Card = Access Control system
Message:
Roger you don't know how on the money you are. Any current premie with a SmartCard who goes over the wall, will be identified as such next time he/she tries to enter a program. What I dont get is why they think we would want to anyway? Actually I do know their reasoning and it disturbs me greatly as does the mentality of those involved in its development.
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Date: Sun, Dec 24, 2000 at 20:18:46 (GMT)
From: Steve Quint
Email: the_avenger55@hotmail.com
To: Roger eDrek
Subject: Smart Card = Access Control system
Message:
Hi Roger:

I mentioned earlier that seeing the application for the smart card was a turning point in my mental involement with the world of m and k. Your post only confirms that this was a turning point in the whole scene. 1984 was 16 years ago but I read Orwell's book in the 60's. Maybe m never read the book. Big mistake on his part.

By the way, what does 'monmot' refer to?

All the best in the holiday season and in the new year.

Steve

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Date: Sun, Dec 24, 2000 at 20:48:14 (GMT)
From: Roger eDrek
Email: drek@oz.net
To: Steve Quint
Subject: Smart Card = Access Control system
Message:
Mr. Avenger (Steve),

I think that 'monmot' is a term that means one who has fallen out and can no longer be trusted. I looked it up in www.dictionary.com and it's not there. It might be Hindi. We need to have our own real 'Monmot' tell us.

Yes, best wishes to you on this Holiday thingy! I can't wait until it ends, but I must say that this Holiday season I've been the least affected in years and I don't know why.

I saw something funny on the news the other night where the local news team was interviewing 'last minute' shoppers and one exhausted woman was saying that she still had so more things to buy and proudly said that she had already been shopping for a month like it was some kind of marathon endurance sporting event.

Break free of the Madison Avenue Ad Man! Don't be a lemming! Let the retail segment of the economy go to hell by boycotting X-Mas! It's bullshit! It's nothing but consumer commercialism. Fuck Maharaji, the real enemy is Santa Claus!

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Date: Mon, Dec 25, 2000 at 05:39:26 (GMT)
From: Stonor
Email: None
To: Roger eDrek
Subject: Solution? Santa Killer (OT)
Message:
Santa Killer
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Date: Sun, Dec 24, 2000 at 20:56:48 (GMT)
From: Roger eDrek
Email: drek@oz.net
To: Roger eDrek
Subject: Oops, didn't mean to go off topic
Message:
I just get carried away by this damn X-Mas thing.

Yes, being a premie is becoming a total Orwellian experience complete with Double-Speak and Big Brother. Actually, Double-Speak has always been part of the cult experience.

For me the last drip was attending the modern local videos where there were more uptight ushers and organizers than attendees. The whole thing is trying so hard in a bogus effort to present itself as something simple, normal and palatable. Yet, with the complication of Maharaji's need to be worshipped it is a battle they cannot win. The deceit starts the moment the sucker walks in the door:

'Oh no, we are not a cult. This is not a religion. Maharaji is just a teacher, a master and a very successfull private investor. Just take a seat and enjoy the show. Questions? Save them or later - much later. Just keep coming back. Soon the salve will start working and you will be soothed to sleep and your questions will be gone.'

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Date: Sun, Dec 24, 2000 at 09:00:02 (GMT)
From: JTF
Email: None
To: Salam
Subject: These numbers reflect (approx)cult population (nt)
Message:
asdf
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Date: Sun, Dec 24, 2000 at 10:26:09 (GMT)
From: Salam
Email: None
To: JTF
Subject: after 30 years of hard yakka, you have 10,000
Message:
followers. Looks like something is wroung, wouldn't you say?
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Date: Sun, Dec 24, 2000 at 10:36:05 (GMT)
From: JTF
Email: None
To: Salam
Subject: 10,000 was the number I came up with too
Message:
Since this smart card scam was started last spring, I think the numbers are fairly solid. I think that in Europe and North America where most of the money comes from they are very close to real. I know when I was still imprisoned in the cult, I would have signed up right away as would any other hard core cult member.
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Date: Sun, Dec 24, 2000 at 15:34:21 (GMT)
From: Salam
Email: None
To: JTF
Subject: It not a bad money spinner venture
Message:
considering it raised 300,00 US do-llars, Add to that the satalite links and the event fees, and you really have a golden chock. Imagine if they convince all the Indians to carry it, wow, no need for fundraising anymore. Hey did you know that these cards can link directly to a bank account. Check or saving please, enter your pin number and press OK. Transaction approved, please procceed to you location to listen to one hour of bullshit. If you want more, just swip the card on that little gizmio there, thank you.
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Date: Sun, Dec 24, 2000 at 02:14:32 (GMT)
From: SB
Email: None
To: Salam
Subject: Bussiness, baby
Message:
What a nice cult, so organized. Under Rawat's control EVERYTHING must work for his advantage and gain. Poor premies; blinded by delussion is not what was promised.

Maharaji is a total ignorant, mean, materialistic, hungry for power idiot. His 'teachings' transform people in something very, very weird, so weird that they not aware of what he inflicts upon them. All the brainwashing and justification coming from him is all a person is left with while in the cult. Peace my beauty marks!

I spoke today on the phone with my premie ex-husband regarding our son who went to live for a while with him and the poor guy, a grown up person, well, old, older even than me and doesn't know how to handle his own son, doesn't know how to love him. PREMIES DO NOT KNOW HOW TO LOVE THEMSELVES. How can love others? I still have to meet a premie that does. I am saying this honestly, without anger or resentment. I DO NOT KNOW ANYBODY. I Never met one. Premies are not special people. They could have been better off never meeting the hamster.

In another hand, I know people, 'regulars', no cult involvement ever who are genuinely very, very loving and caring with their families and friends. While being a premie I had many non-premies friends and I would look at the premies and something was weird. I didn't fit in. That is what broke my ties with the cult, realizing that it was all a big, evil scam, coated with beautiful pictures, and songs, and promises, nevertheless, negative for any human being that gets involved.

Smart cards... Play a smart hand of cards: Get out of the cult you premies! If you can, think. He cannot read your mind. Use your reasoning. Smart cards are a form to control you even further. The system is not for your convinience but his.

Rawat: I am so, so very glad that justice is begining to surface. 'Your' premies are leaving you. You lost you fool. Now, you may have few millions but your conscience will bother you and bring bad memories of your dirt until the day you die. You are not going to be able to enjoy the money you stold from us. You'll continue being a drunk, living the same stupid life as the one you have lived, the one you are living today and for ever. You got what you deserve. You even kill a man! I bet you you were drunk, you, irresponsible spoiled brat. Rotten vegetables nothing. You can have them if that is what you believe. I don't any more. LOL. SB is so mean. No, just human.

Salam, aren't you glad now, everyday, that you are an ex-premie? Life is more honest today: At least we are not having an imaginary friend. LOL.

Do you read your mail or it accumulates? Just asking. :0
;)Love,

SB

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Date: Sun, Dec 24, 2000 at 15:10:02 (GMT)
From: Steve Quint
Email: the_avenger55@hotmail.com
To: SB
Subject: He Didn't Kill One Man
Message:
Forget about 'you even kill a man'. He's killed a lot more people in his speeches than the one alleged incident with a cyclist. See my post 'Rawat Big Winner - Oh Yeah' above.

Steve

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Date: Sun, Dec 24, 2000 at 20:50:21 (GMT)
From: SB
Email: None
To: Steve Quint
Subject: You are correct.
Message:
Thinking with half a brain at times. I almost became another number myself.

Thanks for the correction: Why give him a brake. LOL

SB

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Date: Sun, Dec 24, 2000 at 10:49:58 (GMT)
From: Salam
Email: None
To: SB
Subject: Bussiness, baby
Message:
SB,

I replied to your mail already.

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Date: Sat, Dec 23, 2000 at 22:49:54 (GMT)
From: Patrick
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: re. Maharaji's responsibility in this accident.
Message:
This from:

http://www.elanvital.org/behind_the_message.htm

Kind is a description of him that frequently crops up and one insider comments: 'he can be tough, demanding and very focused on the standards he wants to achieve. However even when he’s had to take someone to task he always follows up with a reassurance that mistakes happen not because people are stupid or incapable, just that they have forgotten to be conscious of their actions.' Maharaji’s own take on this: 'When you slip on a banana skin, you can’t blame the banana or the person who threw it there. It was you, through a moment of unconsciousness, didn’t look where you were walking.'

If Maharaji believes that one should be responsible for one's actions then how can he allow someone else to be blamed for his own 'moment of unconsciousness' when he presumably wasn't looking carefully enough where he was going?

I know it was an accident and the man may well have wandered into the path of Maharaji's car, but any driver (and I don't see what difference it makes what country you're in) has some responsibility to be cautious about other road users and pedestrians. Maharaji as much as admits it in this Elan Vital quote as far as I can see.

Is this the reaction of a truthful, conscious person of integrety? Am I missing something? What is the lesson in this? What can we learn from this 'divine play' of the Master? That he makes the rules for others, and expects that they adhere, and yet changes them to suit himself?

I hear some die-hard premies blaming the 'running' part of this 'Hit and Run' incident on Randy Prouty and Sampurnanand. It was them who hustled him away from the scene and arranged for someone else to take the blame. Yes, a shameful thing to do! And some poor innocent boy took the blame! (I would very much like to know what happened to him BTW)

Now I gather that this incident happened in the early '80's. At this time Maharaji would have been a responsible adult who had every opportunity, especially in his position as 'The Boss' (as he was widely referred to at the time) to exert his undeniable authority in this developing terrible situation. To me it is cowardly to have allowed the boy to take the blame.

We are no longer talking about Maharaji the innocent little boy guru who was, to his detriment, being ruled by premie's with their own agendas. Maharaji was, by the 80's very much in charge of his agenda. His premies are not therefore to blame for the way this incident was handled in my opinion.

Yes the financial settlement should have been and was made to the victims family. But the way Michael tells it, it would appear that this payment was less of an 'out of court settlement' and more of a matter of 'hush money'. That is hardly laudable.

If this is acceptible behaviour in India then so be it - but what this tells me is that Maharaji really does not believe that he should take responsibility for his actions. What I would like to know is how he would care to explain this.

As we know, he is not at all happy with this increasing pressure that he defend his position. In fact he thinks that the Master (him) should not have to do this at all -(even presumably to the extent that it may help his followers understanding and trust in him, if he did so).

'So, that’s the good news, the bad news is that the concepts have really gotten us in a hole to this day, where we’re still having to defend ourselves, which I find pathetic (he spits this out) having to defend ourselves and say.. No.. these things are not true. So we cannot afford to perpetuate any concepts.

What he fails to grasp, it seems, is that it is his followers or ex-followers themselves who are really his only committed critics. It is by no means pathetic to offer them some explanations since their trust and understanding of him is at stake.

You know, when I initially read this report from Michael, I sensed that it was a time bomb and that there will be some considerable delayed reaction. As a matter of fact, I felt extremely shocked, saddened and upset, and the blood literally ran cold in my veins at the callousness in the way this incident was described to have developed.

If what happened is true then surely Maharaji - Elan Vital will have to offer some less callous sounding version of events to divert from the general damning impression that has been created by this one witness.

I have been engaged in some ongoing arguments and discussions with a number of premie friends over these last few years, and when I told them of this development, most admitted that this was finally something that they found very hard to accept or give Maharaji the benifit of the doubt about. I think they accept that since Michael Dettmers has laid his reputation on the line over this, that it was most likely a true incident and not just a salacious rumour. They will surely be mulling this over very seriously right now, as are we all.

This extract from a letter from a great premie friend (currently serving a 2 year jail sentence in Germany) - who inquires of developments on the ex-premie forum:

'I would be very interested to know (and it might be helpful to you) to know what you do believe/ accept regarding GMJ's identity, Knowledge, practice, existence, life after death etc...I can't see anything worthwhile coming from defaming GMJ in the long and short term, too many people have benefitted. Certainly by now his fame is assured historically even if it is only due to the drama, his longevity and the way and number of people he has touched. The idea of 'bringing him down' seems a lttle far fetched.'

He goes on to say - regarding another mutual friend who I informed him was recently arrested for crashing his car when drunk:

' Sorry to hear about 'X' . But he's lucky. I have a friend in here who drove whilst drunk and killed a man, he faces imprisonment and a lifetime of remorse'

I wonder how much remorse Maharaji feels about this.

I asked Michael Dettmers when he was in London recently, whether he thought Maharaji would have had any remorse for putting people through so much in the ashrams etc. This was his reply:

'None. I don’t believe that Maharaji has any remorse about anything. I think he feels like everything he’s doing, he’s doing out of…See, to get into the mindset of Maharaji — he, in my opinion, truly believes that he is whatever he means by Perfect Master, the Satguru, the one who is bringing enlightenment or freedom or whatever he thinks that Knowledge is. I think he believes that. I don’t think he’s putting on a game - and he believes that there’s a certain style — like he’s adopted a certain style to his leadership that allows him to think that whatever he’s doing is for people’s benefit. Now, I don’t know if that’s what he thinks today, but certainly when I was around that’s what he believed. The point I’m getting at is that he doesn’t have any remorse that I’ve ever seen — he always feels like people just don’t understand and are ungrateful. '

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Date: Mon, Dec 25, 2000 at 01:01:26 (GMT)
From: Swami Suchabananda
Email: None
To: Patrick
Subject: Merry m. bananas
Message:

http://www.elanvital.org/behind_the_message.htm

Maharaji’s own takes: 'When you slip on a banana skin, you can’t blame the banana or the person who threw it there. It was you, through a moment of unconsciousness, didn’t look where you were walking.'

Peace,

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Date: Mon, Dec 25, 2000 at 00:55:23 (GMT)
From: Swami suchabananda
Email: None
To: Patrick
Subject: merry m. bananas
Message:
http://www.elanvital.org/behind_the_message.htm

' Maharaji’s own take on this: 'When you slip on a banana skin, you can’t blame the banana or the person who threw it there. It was you, through a moment of unconsciousness, didn’t look where you were walking.'' [per fair use]

Peace

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Date: Sun, Dec 24, 2000 at 21:47:40 (GMT)
From: Kelly
Email: None
To: Patrick
Subject: M is culpable, no question nt
Message:
nt
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Date: Sun, Dec 24, 2000 at 20:37:24 (GMT)
From: suchabanana
Email: None
To: Patrick
Subject: If you slip on banana skin,don't blame banana! (nt
Message:
nt
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Date: Thurs, Dec 28, 2000 at 18:27:12 (GMT)
From: Stonor
Email: None
To: suchabanana
Subject: If you get hit by a car don't blame the driver?
Message:
Hope your holidays are going jolly good!
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Date: Sun, Dec 24, 2000 at 17:04:19 (GMT)
From: Mark Appleman
Email: None
To: Patrick
Subject: re. Maharaji's responsibility in this accident.
Message:
Patrick

My response to Tim's questions is a simple one - one that he should have little problem deciphering. PRISON . Well designed ones. With borders not unlike the one's in the Truman Show.This site helps people get out of PRISON.

Secondly, Maharaji's final historical relevancy and value will
be right up there with Milli Vanilli, ie, NONE.

That is not to say that his appearance in our lives wasn't historical ... but in the big picture , forget it. A false alarm. A premature Millenial ejaculation.Not even a candidate
for one of those'Where are they Now' pieces you see in magazines every now and then.

This is not the Lord that Tim and I used to meaningfully discuss on the beaches of Malibu. Tim desrves more than a half baked philosophy and self deception. He's too big and real for Rawat prison. Please convey that to him for me. If he sees himself as a man of spirit, tell him its time to grow up and put away Childish things.

Mark

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Date: Mon, Dec 25, 2000 at 23:09:07 (GMT)
From: Patrick
Email: None
To: Mark Appleman
Subject: re. Maharaji's responsibility in this accident.
Message:
Hi Mark,
yes I've passed on your post to Tim in a letter. I will be going to see him shortly. If you want to write to him yourself I will give you his address. Email me patrick@patrickwilson.com
By the way I cannot find your email address so I would like to hear from you in that medium.

I imagine that prison for Tim is extremely confronting in many ways and as you may have gathered -he is looking at several years there. I think he would appreciate any correspondance from old friends, though I am not sure how he will take the 100 page essay I am currently preparing him. Love to you and yours -Patrick

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Date: Wed, Dec 27, 2000 at 00:21:52 (GMT)
From: Mark
Email: apple4256@datastreet.com
To: Patrick
Subject: re. Maharaji's responsibility in this accident.
Message:
our computer's down but our phone #is 805-381-0825

computer should be up soon

Tim is strong. He'll be talking about 'this amazing thing and that amazing thing' happening to him in prison.

Our love to him.

MarK and Billy

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Date: Sun, Dec 24, 2000 at 00:32:21 (GMT)
From: Bin Liner
Email: None
To: Patrick
Subject: Don't understand and are ungrateful....
Message:
....Rawat thinks.

How the fuck does he know ?

There are loads of people who are grateful , the ones who keep him up & running , for a start.

The likes of Danny/1st time/chad , who come here to fight the good fight , are grateful.

The ungrateful ones are those who now realise the guy is a shyster.

But we were all grateful once.

Watch out Rawat , when your wallet is feeling a bit thin your lawyers will still need their cut.

How does it feel Mr.Jacobs ,to know you own GOD.

pax

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