Forum V: Archive
Compiled: Sat, Jan 06, 2001 at 16:11:01 (GMT)
From: Dec 23, 2000 To: Jan 04, 2001 Page: 2 Of: 5


shp -:- The thing of the thing -:- Sun, Dec 31, 2000 at 17:03:29 (GMT)
__ Turner -:- The thing of the thing -:- Tues, Jan 02, 2001 at 19:20:29 (GMT)
__ __ hamzen -:- Ha,ha,ha, you Pauline's husband/fella? -:- Wed, Jan 03, 2001 at 17:21:55 (GMT)
__ __ Nigel -:- Fascinating. Care to explain? -:- Wed, Jan 03, 2001 at 15:47:04 (GMT)
__ __ Jim -:- Are you trying to be funny? (Sure hope so) -:- Tues, Jan 02, 2001 at 22:47:58 (GMT)
__ __ Kelly -:- The thing of the thing -:- Tues, Jan 02, 2001 at 22:24:20 (GMT)
__ __ la-ex -:- TURNER:One comment,one question please... -:- Tues, Jan 02, 2001 at 21:41:56 (GMT)
__ __ __ Turner -:- TURNER:One comment,one question please... -:- Wed, Jan 03, 2001 at 01:19:36 (GMT)
__ __ __ shp -:- To la-ex -:- Tues, Jan 02, 2001 at 22:42:47 (GMT)
__ __ shp -:- The thing of the thing -:- Tues, Jan 02, 2001 at 20:04:20 (GMT)
__ __ __ Turner -:- The thing of the thing -:- Wed, Jan 03, 2001 at 00:57:19 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ shp -:- Back to you, Turner -:- Wed, Jan 03, 2001 at 15:02:59 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ la-ex -:- Turner-your post to shp says it all.... -:- Wed, Jan 03, 2001 at 05:40:44 (GMT)
__ __ __ shp -:- Hey Turner, the one above this is mine to you (nt) -:- Tues, Jan 02, 2001 at 22:44:44 (GMT)
__ cq -:- and the shape of the thing of the things to come? -:- Tues, Jan 02, 2001 at 18:20:25 (GMT)
__ Jerry -:- Do you really see God? -:- Mon, Jan 01, 2001 at 03:40:06 (GMT)
__ __ shp -:- Pert sure...but there's always more -:- Mon, Jan 01, 2001 at 04:03:26 (GMT)
__ __ __ JohnT -:- Going, going on, going on beyond. Always becoming. -:- Mon, Jan 01, 2001 at 09:15:43 (GMT)
__ la-ex -:- shp-would EV like your thing?ever ask them? -:- Sun, Dec 31, 2000 at 21:53:24 (GMT)
__ Jim -:- What a simple question -:- Sun, Dec 31, 2000 at 21:05:03 (GMT)
__ __ Selene -:- hahaha good one -:- Sun, Dec 31, 2000 at 21:06:48 (GMT)
__ __ __ sb -:- hahaha good one -:- Tues, Jan 02, 2001 at 03:47:15 (GMT)
__ Roger eDrek -:- The thing of the thing -:- Sun, Dec 31, 2000 at 20:59:34 (GMT)
__ ham -:- Like you shp, my experience of meditation -:- Sun, Dec 31, 2000 at 20:49:21 (GMT)
__ __ shp -:- The semipermeable membrane of this body is just -:- Mon, Jan 01, 2001 at 01:17:24 (GMT)
__ __ __ hamzen -:- If as you say it's all one thing, -:- Mon, Jan 01, 2001 at 14:49:21 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Jerry -:- You are just soooo zen -:- Mon, Jan 01, 2001 at 16:22:09 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ ham -:- You are just soooo zen -:- Mon, Jan 01, 2001 at 18:00:44 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Jerry -:- You are just soooo zen -:- Mon, Jan 01, 2001 at 19:54:19 (GMT)
__ bill -:- That thingee -:- Sun, Dec 31, 2000 at 18:28:26 (GMT)
__ Joy -:- The thing of the thing -:- Sun, Dec 31, 2000 at 18:24:39 (GMT)
__ __ Disculta -:- The thang of the thang -:- Sun, Dec 31, 2000 at 19:44:21 (GMT)
__ __ __ shp -:- Twang that thang -:- Mon, Jan 01, 2001 at 01:26:44 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Disculta -:- Twang that thang -:- Mon, Jan 01, 2001 at 01:38:39 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ shp -:- Aramaic - Back to the root language of the Bible -:- Mon, Jan 01, 2001 at 01:56:14 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Disculta -:- Aramaic - Back to the root language of the Bible -:- Mon, Jan 01, 2001 at 14:34:08 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ shp -:- Hey, regards to the hubby and I bet you look -:- Tues, Jan 02, 2001 at 01:34:51 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Disculta -:- My waxy green new year's gift to hubby -:- Tues, Jan 02, 2001 at 04:16:04 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ shp -:- Thanks for the chuckle -:- Tues, Jan 02, 2001 at 08:56:31 (GMT)
__ __ __ Roger eDrek -:- DISAPPOINTMENT -:- Sun, Dec 31, 2000 at 21:37:33 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ TED Farkel -:- We'll miss you tonite Mr. eDrek,how's the mind? -:- Sun, Dec 31, 2000 at 22:08:13 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ suchibanzai-no -:- Didn't m say,A mind is a terrible thing to have?nt -:- Mon, Jan 01, 2001 at 01:58:05 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Steve Quint -:- Arigatou Gozaimashita Lol nt -:- Tues, Jan 02, 2001 at 22:07:05 (GMT)

Tom -:- Where are the WhistleBlowers? -:- Sun, Dec 31, 2000 at 02:25:24 (GMT)
__ Wish -:- Few WhistleBlowers, but many listeners... -:- Mon, Jan 01, 2001 at 01:52:46 (GMT)
__ Katie -:- Uhh, Tom... -:- Mon, Jan 01, 2001 at 00:56:00 (GMT)
__ Owl -:- Where are the WhistleBlowers? , ... ( You say... ) -:- Sun, Dec 31, 2000 at 21:56:54 (GMT)
__ la-ex -:- Where are the WhistleBlowers? -:- Sun, Dec 31, 2000 at 21:35:07 (GMT)
__ hamzen -:- Where are the WhistleBlowers? -:- Sun, Dec 31, 2000 at 19:39:53 (GMT)
__ __ Aussi Ji -:- Where are the WhistleBlowers? -:- Sun, Dec 31, 2000 at 22:20:51 (GMT)
__ Sir Dave -:- There's just a handful of opponents -:- Sun, Dec 31, 2000 at 03:16:28 (GMT)
__ Selene -:- it is amazing isn't it? -:- Sun, Dec 31, 2000 at 03:03:31 (GMT)
__ __ Aussi Ji -:- I'll second that and third that! -:- Sun, Dec 31, 2000 at 03:54:48 (GMT)
__ __ Oliver -:- Yes it is amazing isn't it? -:- Sun, Dec 31, 2000 at 03:45:49 (GMT)
__ __ __ Selene -:- hi Oliver welcome to happy hour -:- Sun, Dec 31, 2000 at 03:53:42 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Hi Selene -:- Re: hi Oliver welcome to happy hour -:- Sun, Dec 31, 2000 at 04:14:23 (GMT)

Susan -:- A poll for all ex premies ( and premies too) -:- Sat, Dec 30, 2000 at 22:15:47 (GMT)
__ Suzanne -:- Of course I would have done it, it a minute. -:- Tues, Jan 02, 2001 at 23:53:56 (GMT)
__ suchabananer -:- What if he had asked premie guys to do Marolyn?(nt -:- Tues, Jan 02, 2001 at 17:32:25 (GMT)
__ Monmot -:- Do You Believe In Magic? -:- Tues, Jan 02, 2001 at 00:23:26 (GMT)
__ Disculta -:- A poll for all ex premies ( and premies too) -:- Mon, Jan 01, 2001 at 01:50:03 (GMT)
__ __ Susan -:- intuition -:- Mon, Jan 01, 2001 at 03:11:46 (GMT)
__ Katie -:- A poll for all ex premies ( and premies too) -:- Mon, Jan 01, 2001 at 00:16:06 (GMT)
__ suchabanana -:- Reply2 m:So,you'd like a banana up your fatass? nt -:- Sun, Dec 31, 2000 at 20:18:13 (GMT)
__ hamzen -:- No doubt what would have happened -:- Sun, Dec 31, 2000 at 18:56:58 (GMT)
__ __ Selene -:- non premie women would have laughed at him -:- Sun, Dec 31, 2000 at 19:03:38 (GMT)
__ __ __ Deputy Dog -:- Selene here is my answer to no. -:- Mon, Jan 01, 2001 at 02:43:29 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Katie -:- Since you quoted me, Dep... -:- Mon, Jan 01, 2001 at 03:32:59 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Selene -:- Dep Do says Selene, what does Knowledge have to -:- Mon, Jan 01, 2001 at 02:52:02 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Bazza -:- Oh gross!!!! -:- Mon, Jan 01, 2001 at 03:17:05 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Selene -:- hahahaha you area inspiring a top 10 list -:- Mon, Jan 01, 2001 at 03:24:07 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Deputy Dog -:- Dep Do says Selene, what does Knowledge have to -:- Mon, Jan 01, 2001 at 03:15:03 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Susan -:- but Dog have you read the words to Golden Way? -:- Mon, Jan 01, 2001 at 03:22:35 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Susan -:- the whole classic tune -:- Mon, Jan 01, 2001 at 03:26:05 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Selene -:- you were the one who mentioned K and sex -:- Mon, Jan 01, 2001 at 03:20:23 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Selene -:- and do we REALLY know -:- Mon, Jan 01, 2001 at 03:29:51 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Deputy Dog -:- Selene, maybe you are right about this. -:- Mon, Jan 01, 2001 at 19:21:14 (GMT)
__ __ __ ham -:- And didn't he know it, it would have been a -:- Sun, Dec 31, 2000 at 20:57:55 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Cynthia -:- Everything said here it so pertinent! -:- Sun, Dec 31, 2000 at 23:56:41 (GMT)
__ Helen -:- A poll for all ex premies ( and premies too) -:- Sun, Dec 31, 2000 at 18:02:31 (GMT)
__ Rick -:- A poll for all ex premies ( and premies too) -:- Sun, Dec 31, 2000 at 16:57:17 (GMT)
__ __ Cynthia -:- Hi Rick.... -:- Sun, Dec 31, 2000 at 18:30:58 (GMT)
__ __ __ Rick -:- Hi Cynthia -:- Sun, Dec 31, 2000 at 18:55:06 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Cynthia -:- Hi Rick..... -:- Sun, Dec 31, 2000 at 19:53:19 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Rick -:- oh... -:- Sun, Dec 31, 2000 at 23:17:11 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Selene -:- know what you mean Cynthia -:- Sun, Dec 31, 2000 at 19:58:00 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Rick -:- know what you mean Cynthia -:- Sun, Dec 31, 2000 at 23:23:28 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Selene -:- actually I expected the lightening -:- Mon, Jan 01, 2001 at 00:07:59 (GMT)
__ Cynthia -:- A poll for all ex premies ( and premies too) -:- Sun, Dec 31, 2000 at 16:07:33 (GMT)
__ shp -:- Moi? -:- Sun, Dec 31, 2000 at 15:55:22 (GMT)
__ Sir Dave -:- A poll for all ex premies ( and premies too) -:- Sun, Dec 31, 2000 at 15:41:38 (GMT)
__ __ Selene -:- hi dave I answered you on Ag about this -:- Sun, Dec 31, 2000 at 18:58:39 (GMT)
__ Salam -:- grab him by the balls and squeez hard -:- Sun, Dec 31, 2000 at 01:36:26 (GMT)
__ Deputy Dog -:- Here's what I'd say Susan -:- Sun, Dec 31, 2000 at 00:32:45 (GMT)
__ __ Deputy Dog -:- Here's more of what I'd say Susan -:- Mon, Jan 01, 2001 at 02:21:55 (GMT)
__ __ __ Susan -:- Here's more of what I'd say Susan -:- Mon, Jan 01, 2001 at 03:01:46 (GMT)
__ __ Oliver -:- BowfuckingWow. (NT) -:- Sun, Dec 31, 2000 at 03:50:37 (GMT)
__ bill -:- like an innocent child, you submit.-nt -:- Sun, Dec 31, 2000 at 00:29:22 (GMT)
__ Aussi Ji(hetero bloke) -:- A poll for all ex premies ( and premies too) -:- Sat, Dec 30, 2000 at 23:40:07 (GMT)
__ __ Lesley -:- aussie blokes, thanks for the giggle -:- Sun, Dec 31, 2000 at 20:32:27 (GMT)
__ __ Robyn -:- A poll for all ex premies ( and premies too) -:- Sun, Dec 31, 2000 at 02:14:07 (GMT)
__ __ __ Aussi Ji -:- A poll for all ex premies ( and premies too) -:- Sun, Dec 31, 2000 at 04:08:18 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Robyn -:- A poll for all ex premies ( and premies too) -:- Mon, Jan 01, 2001 at 14:37:46 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Selene -:- is it because -:- Sun, Dec 31, 2000 at 04:13:54 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Robyn -:- is it because -:- Mon, Jan 01, 2001 at 15:18:13 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Selene -:- I know what you mean -:- Mon, Jan 01, 2001 at 16:24:34 (GMT)
__ JHB -:- A poll for all ex premies ( and premies too) -:- Sat, Dec 30, 2000 at 23:20:05 (GMT)
__ Male Hetero Ex -:- No way. Even God. Now Kali or Green Tara... (nt) -:- Sat, Dec 30, 2000 at 23:01:47 (GMT)
__ __ Susan -:- how, oh studley one, would you have told him no? -:- Sat, Dec 30, 2000 at 23:08:52 (GMT)
__ Selene -:- A poll for all ex premies ( and premies too) -:- Sat, Dec 30, 2000 at 22:57:27 (GMT)
__ __ Susan -:- yep... -:- Sat, Dec 30, 2000 at 23:06:42 (GMT)
__ __ __ Robyn -:- yep... -:- Sun, Dec 31, 2000 at 02:25:02 (GMT)
__ __ __ janet -:- i know i would have taken it as i take all... -:- Sun, Dec 31, 2000 at 01:03:22 (GMT)

Deputy Dog -:- There is a lot of this going around -:- Sat, Dec 30, 2000 at 20:44:15 (GMT)
__ C.G. -:- another great quote - post it on Elk -:- Tues, Jan 02, 2001 at 07:43:07 (GMT)
__ Lord Acton -:- Power tends to corrupt ... -:- Mon, Jan 01, 2001 at 12:48:49 (GMT)
__ __ shp -:- Another common misquote -:- Tues, Jan 02, 2001 at 01:44:14 (GMT)
__ shp -:- There is a lot of this going around -:- Mon, Jan 01, 2001 at 04:57:09 (GMT)
__ __ Deputy Dog -:- shp - There is a lot of this going around -:- Mon, Jan 01, 2001 at 23:54:59 (GMT)
__ __ __ shp -:- Dep - We are talking about 'the most powerful -:- Tues, Jan 02, 2001 at 00:57:32 (GMT)
__ Nigel -:- Whoah! Fuck off, Dep... -:- Sun, Dec 31, 2000 at 20:16:48 (GMT)
__ __ shp -:- Speaking of morality, a favorite quote -:- Mon, Jan 01, 2001 at 04:42:03 (GMT)
__ __ ham -:- And that's just teaching Nigel, -:- Sun, Dec 31, 2000 at 21:07:48 (GMT)
__ __ __ Deputy Dog -:- Nigel and ham, have you ever considered . . . -:- Mon, Jan 01, 2001 at 01:55:35 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ hamzen -:- Yeah but your quote wasn't just d Lama . -:- Mon, Jan 01, 2001 at 14:04:27 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Deputy Dog -:- hamzen here is my response -:- Mon, Jan 01, 2001 at 23:12:41 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ hamzen -:- That's better dog, but you're still hard work -:- Tues, Jan 02, 2001 at 14:35:07 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ ham -:- Oh and ps -:- Tues, Jan 02, 2001 at 14:42:14 (GMT)
__ janet -:- lets be sure we put our man up there too -:- Sun, Dec 31, 2000 at 01:07:43 (GMT)
__ Bazza -:- Deputy Dog, Owl...what is this, a freakin' zoo? nt -:- Sat, Dec 30, 2000 at 23:51:07 (GMT)
__ __ shp -:- wazzzzzzzza, bazzzzzzzzzza?! (nt) -:- Mon, Jan 01, 2001 at 04:45:58 (GMT)
__ __ Owl -:- Bazza says, '...what is this, a freakin' zoo? ...' -:- Sun, Dec 31, 2000 at 02:36:06 (GMT)
__ __ __ shp -:- Hey Owl, gettin' a bit testy on New Year's Eve... -:- Mon, Jan 01, 2001 at 04:50:41 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Owl -:- Hey shp, (you say), 'gettin' a bit testy.......... -:- Mon, Jan 01, 2001 at 10:52:27 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ shp -:- Reply to the Owl...who? The Owl...who? The Owl.. -:- Mon, Jan 01, 2001 at 18:35:51 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ JohnT -:- Owl = NSoL ??? -:- Mon, Jan 01, 2001 at 15:20:02 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ bazza -:- Don't hold your breath John -:- Mon, Jan 01, 2001 at 20:10:51 (GMT)
__ __ __ Selene -:- this place is a bar -:- Sun, Dec 31, 2000 at 03:00:34 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Owl -:- this place is a bar , (What ever you want it to be -:- Mon, Jan 01, 2001 at 00:53:04 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Selene -:- well i guess you told me and no I do NOT -:- Mon, Jan 01, 2001 at 00:59:54 (GMT)
__ __ Owl -:- Bazza says: '..what is this, a freakin' zoo? nt..' -:- Sun, Dec 31, 2000 at 02:29:24 (GMT)
__ __ __ Bazza -:- You just don't get it -:- Sun, Dec 31, 2000 at 03:19:00 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Owl -:- You just don't get it, ..(Thou protest too much..) -:- Mon, Jan 01, 2001 at 00:20:14 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Bazza -:- You just proved my point -:- Mon, Jan 01, 2001 at 03:09:10 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Owl -:- Yes, (lol), you have just proved MY point, (lol).. -:- Mon, Jan 01, 2001 at 09:43:53 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ shp -:- When it comes to the Owl, LOL = loser on line -:- Tues, Jan 02, 2001 at 19:13:41 (GMT)
__ Selene -:- self-righteous female -:- Sat, Dec 30, 2000 at 21:24:20 (GMT)
__ __ shp -:- I love it when you talk dirty while speaking truth -:- Tues, Jan 02, 2001 at 21:21:47 (GMT)
__ Bongo -:- There is a lot of this going around -:- Sat, Dec 30, 2000 at 21:23:59 (GMT)
__ __ shp -:- There is a lot of this going around -:- Mon, Jan 01, 2001 at 05:11:34 (GMT)
__ __ Steve Quint -:- Good Stuff - You've Got Me Wanting More -:- Sun, Dec 31, 2000 at 20:33:02 (GMT)
__ __ Stonor -:- 'Charisma is a legitimate way of teaching'? -:- Sun, Dec 31, 2000 at 04:18:32 (GMT)
__ __ __ Scott T. -:- 'Charisma is a legitimate way of teaching'? -:- Sun, Dec 31, 2000 at 18:57:58 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Steve Quint -:- 'Charisma is a legitimate way of teaching'? -:- Sun, Dec 31, 2000 at 20:34:57 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Scott T. -:- 'Charisma is a legitimate way of teaching'? -:- Mon, Jan 01, 2001 at 01:10:14 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Stonor -:- 'Charisma is a legitimate way of teaching'? -:- Sun, Dec 31, 2000 at 19:27:20 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Steve Quint -:- 'Charisma is a legitimate way of teaching'? -:- Sun, Dec 31, 2000 at 20:23:56 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Stonor -:- What ???!!!! Exactly why NOT?! -:- Sun, Dec 31, 2000 at 23:25:32 (GMT)
__ __ __ Bongo -:- 'Charisma is a legitimate way of teaching'? -:- Sun, Dec 31, 2000 at 17:13:33 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ shp -:- 'Charisma is NOT a way of teaching'! -:- Mon, Jan 01, 2001 at 05:21:30 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Stonor -:- 'Charisma is NOT a way of teaching'! -:- Mon, Jan 01, 2001 at 17:26:56 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ shp -:- Charisma is like the scent and color of a flower -:- Mon, Jan 01, 2001 at 05:39:28 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Stonor -:- If only it were that simple - (nt) -:- Mon, Jan 01, 2001 at 18:13:24 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Bongo -:- The charisma thing -:- Mon, Jan 01, 2001 at 20:07:45 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Scott T. -:- The charisma thing -:- Mon, Jan 01, 2001 at 22:57:24 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Stonor -:- The charisma thing -:- Mon, Jan 01, 2001 at 20:29:22 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Bongo -:- Oh Stonor! -:- Mon, Jan 01, 2001 at 20:50:16 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ shp -:- It is that simple. It's humans who complicate -:- Mon, Jan 01, 2001 at 18:43:30 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Stonor -:- Then it's not that simple really, is it? (nt) -:- Mon, Jan 01, 2001 at 23:09:55 (GMT)
__ Jim -:- You missed the point, I know -:- Sat, Dec 30, 2000 at 21:12:00 (GMT)
__ __ Deputy Dog -:- Jim, I agree! -:- Sun, Dec 31, 2000 at 00:27:48 (GMT)
__ Oliver -:- Bow fucking Bow. (NT) -:- Sat, Dec 30, 2000 at 20:55:52 (GMT)
__ __ janet -:- you mean Bow fucking Wow. ok-she's a dog... -:- Sun, Dec 31, 2000 at 01:13:50 (GMT)


Date: Sun, Dec 31, 2000 at 17:03:29 (GMT)
From: shp
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: The thing of the thing
Message:
I was asking myself recently what circumstances and decisions happened in my life that I am aware of that brought me to where I am at now in this ongoing and seemingly never-ending and presently dysfunctional relationship with my search for the Infinite, the meaning and purpose of life, God, Love, enlightenment....

I went for someone who we all went for, the young boy from India
who promised to bring peace to the world and who giggling told the reporter that he was in fact bringing peace to the world even as he spoke. The Knowledge had all the earmarks of the genuine article as I experienced it in practice and felt its effects thorughout the days, months years, almost half of my life.

Now, years later as I read about the strange escapades of my teacher of Knowledge, I can only say that while I am still grateful for having been shown this technique, and I repsect the function of the teacher, I have absolutely no respect for his actions or lack thereof, which were involved with the injury (on any level) or the death or anyone.

I ponder the two basic mindsets and why they exist....first, the mindset that says everything is cool and Maharaji is the Master and anything he does is OK and not subject to anyone's scrutiny, and second, the mindset that says everything is not cool and Maharaji has abused whatever power he has or had and those who have chosen to back off are the voices crying the truth in the wilderness as Maharaji rides into the Millenium amidst his adoring followers and on satellite in numerous countries.

It is not unnoticed that EV demonizes anyone who questions them or Maharaji, that they do not answer questions head-on, and that they are doing basically the same thing the Republicans did to the Democrats in Florida. Posing, looking good for the cameras, saying all the 'right' words (canned, scripted, upmanship stuff, not simple plain truth). It is also not unnoticed that the FAQ's and the history is not what I remember. I may have some degree of memory loss, but give me a freaking break, will ya?

My first and gut reaction is...well, it's funny because whatever Maharaji did to me has actually affected my ability to percieve my own gut reactions. That is freaky, but once realized it's better. My first and gut reaction is sadness and disappointment that melts down into a deep hurt and hard feeling, not anger, but someting else, a feeling of betrayal.

That we live in a universe which allows for the existence of two such diametrically opposing viewpoints and live bodies to manifest those viewpoints and lifestyles is kind of weird in itself. I read somewhere recently that the whole purpose of this life on earth is to learn how to wield free will. (I think it's
www.wingmakers.com and/or lightsmith.com) The premise is that this is a free will zone in the universe and many souls are here to learn how to master the use of it in right action, that the learning process allows for alot of mistakes, and it's more about messing with free will and learning how to use it than how many mistakes we are making in the learning process.

Standing back and watching premies and ex-premies go at it (and I don't mean this in any sort of condescending or uninvolved way...I am definitely engaged in this struggle), reminds me of watching my sons when they were little, with a super person action figure in each hand, banging them against each other, making grunting noises. This may truly be a lila after all, but not the lila of a grownup entity, but a baby. That would make alot more sense, even if it didn't make things better or different.

Who among us thought it would be OK or even possible that our designated Master could deliver the revealation of the Knowledge of God, but that the rest of his life be so riddled with problems and inconsistencies that dwarf many of ours?

What drives those whose apparent blind faith keeps them off his shit list and in his good graces? Ignorance of the facts? Knowledge of the facts but a blind and uncompromising faith?
And if it is a blind and uncompromising faith, is it fear-based or based on something else?

Ex-premies see the glaring inconsistencies and want to air them out. Premies either don't or won't see the glaring inconsistencies, or see them and don't believe them or think it's a lie made up by dissenters, or see them and think it's not their place to question, again fear-based.

The only variable I don't have a handle on is the rip-in-time factor, in which Maharaji might truly be a Master who has manifested as the child-god of this age as advertised, and actually is only a Master of Knowledge, but on every other level and aspect of life, has as much if not more to learn about life-world stuff as the rest of us. But that is not how he has come off. He has come off as being so much smarter and so much more on top of his act, even though he occasionally admits he makes mistakes too, some of them big ones. If he had told us something like 'look guys, I am just like you except that I have this special thing I have to do, to spread Knowledge. I am just a human being with many things to learn in this life every other way.' But no. He required, subtly demanded and accepted our worship.

And something haunts me to this day...the statement that either he or Charananand made about 'guru being greater than God because guru shows you God.' The Bible specifically states that no one who is a genuine teacher will ever make such a statement. If there were cultural differences between east and west, then I would imagine that God Almighty or even one of his primary messengers would know about such things in advance and persevere for such events to not occur and cause unnecessary confusion. But I was convinvced, mesmerized to the point of not even paying attention to that.

Although the Bible is one screwed up book due to grossly unrighteous edits and political manipulation, it still contains the pure satsang of Christ if you seek it, and that is exactly what Jesus used to defend himself against the Tempter in the desert. The tempter started his shtick with 'If you are the Son of God, then yadda yadda yadda.' And Jesus answered time after time beginning with, 'It is written...' So even though the Book is fucked up pretty bad, it still contains the gold, just like a mountain of granite has the motherlode buried within it. Just gotta dig!

Happy New Year and God bless everyone who reads this.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Tues, Jan 02, 2001 at 19:20:29 (GMT)
From: Turner
Email: None
To: shp
Subject: The thing of the thing
Message:
Hey Sandy, as the interrogator for the rightist death squad said to his stalwart yet hapless victim, “Everybody has a breaking point…we’ll eventually get to yours”. So they finally reached yours, huh?

I am aware of all the “facts” appearing in the forum and have wrested with them, as you are now wrestling with them. We must appreciate that these “facts” are being presented in a very one-sided way to induce a particular conclusion. Such a presentation makes for muddy water. Personally, I have gone to my own litmus test to resolve this, which I have gone to throughout my life: I send out a call from my heart, to my heart and wait in the silence for a response. And the only one who answers back, and who ever has answered back is Maharaji. It still continues to amaze.

It’s like this: Either a Master has a purpose in your life or not. And if you have a Master, either he fulfills that role or he doesn’t. No matter what he does to make your little head go round in circles, no matter how many others have lost theirs, a Master isn’t a Master one day and then not one the next. Either a master is a master or he isn’t. And if he was a Master he still is. The corollary of that is, if he isn’t, then he never was one.

Did he ever stand up for you heart Sandy? That’s what a Master does you know? Did you ever really appreciate what it was your heart was really calling for? Can you still hear that call, or is your attention now being directed to “the noise”? When the noise gets loud you can’t even tell anymore what is your heart and what is not. Or does all that really matter to you any more? Careful of ending up like the others: “Is it or isn’t it, who cares…just give me a moment of clarity…even the clarity that comes from hating will do.”

Hey Sandy, if you don’t really need a master, that’s cool. But also understand the imperative of Truth…it is thankfully unchanged by your “enlightenment”, mine, or that of public opinion.

I wish you the best.

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Date: Wed, Jan 03, 2001 at 17:21:55 (GMT)
From: hamzen
Email: None
To: Turner
Subject: Ha,ha,ha, you Pauline's husband/fella?
Message:
I hereby dedicate Stepford husband/premie junkie of the year award to ya Turner.

No wonder he's got away with it for so long with such brainless wonders like you still sounding so gung-ho.

One little question,
just what is it that shows you he is THE master,
and since he admits himself he makes mistakes, none of which he details,
anf he has been proven to be an outright liar, easily proven,
how do you know anything he says is true?

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Date: Wed, Jan 03, 2001 at 15:47:04 (GMT)
From: Nigel
Email: None
To: Turner
Subject: Fascinating. Care to explain?
Message:
Personally, I have gone to my own litmus test to resolve this, which I have gone to throughout my life: I send out a call from my heart, to my heart and wait in the silence for a response. And the only one who answers back, and who ever has answered back is Maharaji. It still continues to amaze.

The way you describe it Turner, it almost sounds like science...

So how do you send the call?
What does the reply feel like?
How do you know it is a reply from Maharaji?
How does it differ from the reply a Moonie might get?

Have you REALLY 'wrested' with any of this..?

I suspect you still have a lot of emotional spagetti to untangle. Just remember there are some good people here who will help you should you need it - no smart cards or donations necessary.

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Date: Tues, Jan 02, 2001 at 22:47:58 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Turner
Subject: Are you trying to be funny? (Sure hope so)
Message:
Personally, I have gone to my own litmus test to resolve this, which I have gone to throughout my life: I send out a call from my heart, to my heart and wait in the silence for a response. And the only one who answers back, and who ever has answered back is Maharaji. It still continues to amaze.

This is too stupid for words. Why don't you just fall to your knees, squeeze your eyes shut and pray to Maharaji to take it all away? Kind of the same thing, isn't it?

Listen, Turner, if you don't like the 'one-sided presentation' why not show some guts and ask Maharaji for his side of the story? Or do you think you can just cover that side of your inquiry by asking your 'heart'?

Ha ha ha .... one day you'll cringe at this cowardice, Turner. Best of luck!

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Date: Tues, Jan 02, 2001 at 22:24:20 (GMT)
From: Kelly
Email: None
To: Turner
Subject: The thing of the thing
Message:
Turner said 'Either a master is a master or he isn’t. And if he was a Master he still is. The corollary of that is, if he isn’t, then he never was one.'

You just said it Turner, he never was one. For all the things that he was at the beginning, and all the things he has become, A true master he never was, and nowadays he has lost any potential he might have had. He's lost it. Completely lost it.

Kelly

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Date: Tues, Jan 02, 2001 at 21:41:56 (GMT)
From: la-ex
Email: None
To: Turner
Subject: TURNER:One comment,one question please...
Message:
Dear Turner-

I'll be brief here, my friend.

Comment: I don't have to comment on your post to shp now, but boy, did you open up a can of worms with that one...expect lots of responses, and think about how you'll respond...

Question: OK, M's your man, he's your Master....Great...

If he asked you to kill someone, would you obey your master or not?

If that's too difficult to consider, a lesser version might be: Would you cover up a death caused by him, if he told you to?

Just curious, would appreciate a response...

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Date: Wed, Jan 03, 2001 at 01:19:36 (GMT)
From: Turner
Email: None
To: la-ex
Subject: TURNER:One comment,one question please...
Message:
I’m not going to answer your heavily recycled question about killing someone if asked because it is just plain stupid. But on the other question: Maybe.

Let me ask you a question. If you were on a holiday in Mexico, on your way to the airport to return to work on Monday and you hit and killed a man on a remote stretch of road where there were no witnesses, if you could get away without telling anybody, would you do so knowing the corruption of the Mexican judiciary and the reputation for authorities squeezing rich outsiders for money without cause? No fake bravado please.

Turner

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Date: Tues, Jan 02, 2001 at 22:42:47 (GMT)
From: shp
Email: None
To: la-ex
Subject: To la-ex
Message:
If that's too difficult to consider, a lesser version might be: Would you cover up a death caused by him, if he told you to?

Just curious, would appreciate a response... -la-ex

Hi la-ex,

For someone as savvy as you seem to be, I think you have totally missed the catch-22 of the situation, which is:

If Turner WOULD kill or cover up a death for Maharaji, then he would most certainly LIE about it too, wouldn't he? The only way to catch one of these x-rated swat premies in the act is to be able to see their eyes and monitor their physical reactions and ask them the question in person and unexpectedly at that, or slip some truth serum into the charanamrit.

It's too easy to let one's fingers doing the talking here in cyberspace and clickety-click, there it is, no truth checker here. Boy, would that be a cool invention, a truth checker, to know if the person posting even BELIEVES what he or she is saying, let alone if it's the real McCoy or not.

Later.

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Date: Tues, Jan 02, 2001 at 20:04:20 (GMT)
From: shp
Email: mcpass1@earthlink.net
To: Turner
Subject: The thing of the thing
Message:
Turner,

1) This is not a death squad over here.

2) I am not a hapless victim.

3) Not a breaking point, but the truth has been the goal.

4) Who says 'once a master always a master'...you?

5) You want me to disbelieve others and buy into your thing.

6) I don't hate anybody, but I hate the way some people are.

7) Tell me, if you would, how you feel about:

a) the procurement of women premies by Maharaji via Michael Dettmers for personal pleasure, despite the fact that he is a father, a husband, and a master, the embodiment of truth?

b) the Chinese fire drill at the scene of the vehicular manslaughter in India

c) the untethered Jagdeo skipping the continents and messing with premie kids under Maharaji's nose

d) explain to me if this is the behavior of a master to you, and

e) how premies can seek and obtain a redress of grievances to a listening and truly open and caring ear attached to the head and heart of their master (and not just spin/damage control) with regard to the following:

e) I recommend never adopting the attitude toward one's spiritual teacher of seeing his or her every action as divine or noble. This may seem a little bit bold, but if one has a teacher who is not qualified, who is engaging in unsuitable or wrong behavior, then it is appropriate for the student to criticize
that behavior. - Dalai Lama

f) 'careful of ending up like the others'...right out of the Peer Group Pressure 101 text. As if premies are all that and ex-premies are Dr. Moreau's mistakes. I can think of some premies I'd rather not end up like too, so you may shitcan the comparison contrast, OK?

g) 'Better to eat a crust of bread with those we love alive
than to drink the blood of a rich feast spread and guiltily survive.'

h) It's not a question of needing a master or not. Don't even try to avoid this issue if you are talking to me. It's a question of what kind of shit is this person into who convinced me he was a master in the first place? And how dos it make you feel? Tell me how he answered you when you got quiet, go on.
If you aren't comfortable here, then e-mail me. I really want to hear this, Turner. Cliches and subtlties won't cut it at this stage of the game.

i) As for 'standing up for my heart', GW Bush has said something to that effect too, that he wants to do what's good for me and America...that he wants to stand up for love in the home as the cornerstone of our society....so is he a master too, because he stood up for love in a speech?

j) You have kids? How would you explain it to them? Or newcomers who are interested, but have heard about his escapades?

My e-mail is at the top if that is more comfortable for you.
I will respect your privacy if that is what you require.

Sandy

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Date: Wed, Jan 03, 2001 at 00:57:19 (GMT)
From: Turner
Email: None
To: shp
Subject: The thing of the thing
Message:
Sandy, my responses to your questions are below.

1) This is not a death squad over here.

Nobody said it was. The example was about how far you go before breaking down your defenses. You have reached that breaking point and embraced your doubts.

2) I am not a hapless victim.

You hope.

3) Not a breaking point, but the truth has been the goal.

Truth in what regard? Whether something is black or white, or the essence of existence.

4) Who says 'once a master always a master'...you?

Yeah I said it, but I’m sure it’s been said before. Such truths have a way of repeating themselves

5) You want me to disbelieve others and buy into your thing.

No, I don’t want you to disbelieve anything that is fact. I question the conclusions you and others draw.

6) I don't hate anybody, but I hate the way some people are.

Not today perhaps. Neither did Dettmers once upon a time. Good luck!

7) Tell me, if you would, how you feel about:
a) the procurement of women premies by Maharaji via Michael Dettmers for personal pleasure, despite the fact that he is a father, a husband, and a master, the embodiment of truth?

Couldn’t care less. I’m not going to project morals based on societal customs on anyone. If I was in an Eskimo village and I turned down an offer to sleep with a man’s wife, it would be a slap in the face to him. Customs are different all around the world…which one you going to use to judge him by?

b) the Chinese fire drill at the scene of the vehicular manslaughter in India

What would it have achieved for him to stick around to be spanked by the Indian bureaucracy? It was involuntary manslaughter. The man was dead. There was no malice intended. Really, looking at it objectively, what value would it have added to the situation? Yes it would have satisfied society’s need to dole out punishment but tell me Sandy, do you really think society does a good job of matching its laws to the punishment it administers? At that point the only productive thing that could be done was compensate the family, which he did handsomely by Indian standards.

c) the untethered Jagdeo skipping the continents and messing with premie kids under Maharaji's nose

I don’t have a clue, nor do you, whether there was a tether or not. But one thing that is a sacred convent between a master and devotee, which Maharaji has said many times, “In you time of trouble, I will not abandon you”. So, in this case you expected him to do just that? Have you ever made a bad mistake Sandy?

d) explain to me if this is the behavior of a master to you, and

What the heck do I know what the proper behavior of a Master is? How many have you met? A Master's behavior is never the criteria for recognizing him, and it is always the reason why people don’t.

e) how premies can seek and obtain a redress of grievances to a listening and truly open and caring ear attached to the head and heart of their master (and not just spin/damage control) with regard to the following:
e) I recommend never adopting the attitude toward one's spiritual teacher of seeing his or her every action as divine or noble. This may seem a little bit bold, but if one has a teacher who is not qualified, who is engaging in unsuitable or wrong behavior, then it is appropriate for the student to criticize
that behavior. - Dalai Lama

So now are you a devotee of the Dalai Lama? Go ahead, ask him to give you peace.

f) 'careful of ending up like the others'...right out of the Peer Group Pressure 101 text. As if premies are all that and ex-premies are Dr. Moreau's mistakes. I can think of some premies I'd rather not end up like too, so you may shitcan the comparison contrast, OK?

You lost me.

g) 'Better to eat a crust of bread with those we love alive
than to drink the blood of a rich feast spread and guiltily survive.'

OK find the people you want to eat with and enjoy your meal. But remember, if you end up feasting on criticism and vitriol you’ll get heart-burn.

h) It's not a question of needing a master or not. Don't even try to avoid this issue if you are talking to me. It's a question of what kind of shit is this person into who convinced me he was a master in the first place? And how dos it make you feel? Tell me how he answered you when you got quiet, go on.

It is the question Sandy! If you don’t need one you won’t have one…one way or another. He answers me every time I listen to him and every time I connect via Knowledge within. And if he “convinced” you he was a master, you don’t have a hope in hell of sticking with him.

i) As for 'standing up for my heart', GW Bush has said something to that effect too, that he wants to do what's good for me and America...that he wants to stand up for love in the home as the cornerstone of our society....so is he a master too, because he stood up for love in a speech?

Sure but does GW stand up for your heart Sandy? That is a joke! GW’s an idiot, but that’s another discussion. Look I’m not here to convince you that Maharaji does or doesn’t. If he doesn’t, fine…move on.

j) You have kids? How would you explain it to them? Or newcomers who are interested, but have heard about his escapades?

Yes I do but not old enough to understand. I will tell her that Maharaji satisfies my heart, period. If she has a need for such a thing, she will understand. If not, we’ll talk about something else. If my experience is real, don't you think my words will stand on their own to those who have ears to hear?

Turner

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Date: Wed, Jan 03, 2001 at 15:02:59 (GMT)
From: shp
Email: None
To: Turner
Subject: Back to you, Turner
Message:
Turner,

My comments are carrotted and brought to the top since this is about to roll over to inactive. I look forward to your responses.

1) This is not a death squad over here.

Nobody said it was. The example was about how far you go before breaking down your defenses. You have reached that breaking point and embraced your doubts.

>Why would I need defenses in the first place? Knowledge needs no defense, Maharaji needs no defense, and neither do I if I am in his good graces, which I thought I was, from his own words.
I have not embraced my doubts. I have received information about my teacher that makes me wonder about him and stand back and question. And if he is truly with his devotees in their darkest hour, then he must be with me and everyone on this site very closely, for to not recognize one's true teacher and to imagine that he is not real must be one of the darkest hours a premie can experience.

2) I am not a hapless victim.

You hope.

>And so do you.

3) Not a breaking point, but the truth has been the goal.

Truth in what regard? Whether something is black or white, or the essence of existence.

>You mix apples and oranges, and we are not making fruit salad.

4) Who says 'once a master always a master'...you?

Yeah I said it, but I’m sure it’s been said before. Such truths have a way of repeating themselves.

>Then it would follow 'once a devotee, always a devotee', and Maharaji is still responsible for those who are not happy. If a teacher has a room full of students and some are cruising along doing fine and others are having some really bad problems getting the lesson, which students is that good teacher going to spend some time with? And how much effort will a good teacher spend to bring clarity to those students who are stuck? (If that is truly the case.)

5) You want me to disbelieve others and buy into your thing.

No, I don’t want you to disbelieve anything that is fact. I question the conclusions you and others draw.

>Even though I can understand the place you are in, because I was there too, I have a real problem with shoving all Maharaji's strange actions under the rug anymore and giving him carte blanche with my life, my money, and any attractive female blond premie friends or relatives. I have no malice against him.
I just cannot rationalize it all away at this point. If he is truly a master, then he will understand where I am at and continue to pour out his love and grace to me, and give me a way to see this whole thing clearly. But you know what? I just got here to this site a few years ago, and I empathize with these folks. They are not all evil fallen angels at war with the Lord or some such bullshit. There are many here who have been hurt directly and they have received not a word of comfort or healing.
Is that because of the corrupt media that will blow it up and make him look bad? So if he can avoid the Mexicans and the media, he can pretty much do whatever the heel he wants and always have an excuse for not copping to his own actions. Sweet.

6) I don't hate anybody, but I hate the way some people are.

Not today perhaps. Neither did Dettmers once upon a time. Good luck!

>Sounds like you and Michael have some shit to work out.

7) Tell me, if you would, how you feel about:
a) the procurement of women premies by Maharaji via Michael Dettmers for personal pleasure, despite the fact that he is a father, a husband, and a master, the embodiment of truth?

Couldn’t care less. I’m not going to project morals based on societal customs on anyone. If I was in an Eskimo village and I turned down an offer to sleep with a man’s wife, it would be a slap in the face to him. Customs are different all around
the world…which one you going to use to judge him by?

>I do not judge him. You misunderstand. If I was a traditional Eskimo and he was visiting my home, I would do my custom and it would be cool. But I am not an Eskimo, and I don't think any Eskimos were involved in any of his trysts. Furthermore, I don't think Eskimos do that much anymore. I think that custom slowed down with the advent of HVAC. As for which set of customs one is to be judged by, in all other ways such as eating, driving, manners, and all the other social customs, I believe it's common and proper to do the 'when in Rome, do as the Romans...' But wait! There's more. Maharaji's papers said he's a spiritual teacher. I saw them. Do you think it's appropriate for a person who has told the world he's a spiritual teacher to mess around?
I don't. If he said he was a freethinking master who has no set of rules and does as he pleases without consequence, then I would give him credit for telling the truth, and we'd all have known what we were getting ourselves into.

b) the Chinese fire drill at the scene of the vehicular manslaughter in India

What would it have achieved for him to stick around to be spanked by the Indian bureaucracy? It was involuntary manslaughter. The man was dead. There was no malice intended. Really, looking at it objectively, what value would it have added to the situation? Yes it would have satisfied society’s need to dole out punishment
but tell me Sandy, do you really think society does a good job of matching its laws to the punishment it administers? At that point the only productive thing that could be done was compensate the family, which he did handsomely by Indian standards.

>It would have achieved my deeper trust in him, that he takes responsibility for his actions, just as he tells us to do. It would have set an example for his premies and anyone looking that a man of God deals with what he creates and no amount of money can replace that integrity. So what if the Indian government created some red tape to cut through. It still would have been cleaner to go through that than to just throw money at the situation, which is the way of the world. Is throwing money at one's bloopers the way of heaven too as you see it?

c) the untethered Jagdeo skipping the continents and messing with premie kids under Maharaji's nose

I don’t have a clue, nor do you, whether there was a tether or not. But one thing that is a sacred convent between a master and devotee, which Maharaji has said many times, “In you time of trouble, I will not abandon you”. So, in this case you expected him to do just that? Have you ever made a bad mistake Sandy?

>If there was a tether, it obviously was not short enough.
As for the sacred convenant, I claim the same protection that you say Jagdeo deserves, and therefore I have no worries about my present state of thinking. I am being sincere and damn serious here, not playing with the energy. This ain't a game. I never said that Maharaji should abandon Jagdeo, but he could have stopped him without abandoning him. And what about the kids?
What about the 'not a sparrow falls..' What about the 'If a father sees his child go near a flame, he will not let him burn',
what about that side of the story? Take you attention off Jagdeo for a minute and look at the premie kids. Whether Maharaji knew it or not, (and the reports say he was aware of the problem early on), Jagdeo showed up at premies communities like a wolf in sheep's clothing over and over. You say you have kids. Go on, imagine it was one of your kids, you found out, called and wrote Maharaji and got no response. Would you still be as zen about it as you are now? Of course I have been in trouble. What's your point?

d) explain to me if this is the behavior of a master to you, and

What the heck do I know what the proper behavior of a Master is? How many have you met? A Master's behavior is never the criteria for recognizing him, and it is always the reason why people don’t.

>Catchy, but no cigar. Once again, imagine your own kid, your own flesh and blood, messed with by Jagdeo and you find out and get no communication from the powers that be. You are just supposed to live with it, hey it's a lila, hey you don't question anything, you hear? You are just a premie, you have no rights, you gave them up when you handed over the reins of your life.
Now shut up and giddiyap! Come on, Turner, I need you to be real with me here.

e) how premies can seek and obtain a redress of grievances to a listening and truly open and caring ear attached to the head and heart of their master (and not just spin/damage control) with regard to the following:

I recommend never adopting the attitude toward one's spiritual teacher of seeing his or her every action as divine or noble. This may seem a little bit bold, but if one has a teacher who is not qualified, who is engaging in unsuitable or wrong behavior, then it is appropriate for the student to criticize that behavior. - Dalai Lama

So now are you a devotee of the Dalai Lama? Go ahead, ask him to give you peace.

>Now is not the time to get smart-assed. Maharaji quotes alot of wise people, sets it all to music, with slides of flowers and waterfalls and shows them to us in darkened halls all over the world. Does that mean he is now the student of everyone he has quoted and he has renounced Shri Hans? Give me a break. The truth is the truth, no matter who said it. Like he himself said, Turner, don't just pay attention to that little guy up on the stage.

f) 'careful of ending up like the others'...right out of the Peer Group Pressure 101 text. As if premies are all that and ex-premies are Dr. Moreau's mistakes. I can think of some premies I'd rather not end up like too, so you may shitcan the comparison contrast, OK?

You lost me.

>You warned me against 'ending up like the others', as if all the ex-premies are in a one-size-fits-all bag and they are the 'others', like a leper colony. Check your own words in your first post to me.

g) 'Better to eat a crust of bread with those we love alive
than to drink the blood of a rich feast spread and guiltily survive.'

OK find the people you want to eat with and enjoy your meal. But remember, if you end up feasting on criticism and vitriol you’ll get heart-burn.

>I am not happy about this whole turn of events, but we all have to be true to ourselves. And if you feast on what you are feasting on, you might be surprised yourself someday. In truth, it is not criticism and vitriol I plan to be feasting on. Rather, I have been picking out the sharp bones and other indigestible things that were on the plate I was given as a premie, and look forward to a much more palatable fare.

h) It's not a question of needing a master or not. Don't even try to avoid this issue if you are talking to me. It's a question of what kind of shit is this person into who convinced me he was a master in the first place? And how dos it make you feel? Tell me how he answered you when you got quiet, go on.

It is the question Sandy! If you don’t need one you won’t have one…one way or another. He answers me every time I listen to him and every time I connect via Knowledge within. And if he “convinced” you he was a master, you don’t have a hope in hell of sticking with him.

>How esoteric. There is a certain amount of knowing inside and there is a certain amount of convincing by the master...by his fruits you shall know...the fruits are the convincing.

i) As for 'standing up for my heart', GW Bush has said something to that effect too, that he wants to do what's good for me and America...that he wants to stand up for love in the home as the cornerstone of our society....so is he a master too, because he stood up for love in a speech?

Sure but does GW stand up for your heart Sandy? That is a joke! GW’s an idiot, but that’s another discussion. Look I’m not here to convince you that Maharaji does or doesn’t. If he doesn’t, fine…move on.

>'Move on', you say, like a cop to a bum sleeping on a bench in the park. You have not squarely addressed my questions, so I should move on. I spoil your view of perfection by what I say to you? Is perfection that vulnerable? What if I don't want to move on? What if I want some clarity about the last 22 years and jsut what the hell has really been going on? He has encouraged me to not worry or spend much time on a job, my kids, my wife, my parents, brothers, sisters, future....while he has been amassing a fortune with seed money that was scraped together by premies who where living like nomads, sleeping on floors, following him around the planet like moths follow a flame. And all you can say to me is move on?

j) You have kids? How would you explain it to them? Or newcomers who are interested, but have heard about his escapades?

Yes I do but not old enough to understand. I will tell her that Maharaji satisfies my heart, period. If she has a need for such a thing, she will understand. If not, we’ll talk about something else. If my experience is real, don't you think my words will
stand on their own to those who have ears to hear?

>Sounds great, but once again I would ask you to think about your daughter on Jagdeo's lap alone in a dark room because you trusted him by association with Maharaji, and get back to me. It could have been her, and you need to see that and tell me how it would have made you feel and what you think your relationship with Maharaji would be like if that had happened.

Sandy

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Date: Wed, Jan 03, 2001 at 05:40:44 (GMT)
From: la-ex
Email: None
To: Turner
Subject: Turner-your post to shp says it all....
Message:
I finally understand where you're coming from, with that post to shp.

You are the embodiement of situational morality.

I think that you are a great premie, and I wish you a great time with your master-you both embody the same sense of amorality.

As for the mythical man in Mexico-I would do what the law of the land required,as most people of decent morals would do.

You still didn't answer what you would do when m asks you to kill somebody-isn't that because you know that the question scares the living shit out of you?

It's been asked before you know...lots of old time stories in the bible and the gita, as well as current day 'masters' like dave koresh and jim jones...

Now I don't put those last 2 guys in the same category as the scriptural examples, but I would put them in the same category with m...

Jai Satchitanand!

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Date: Tues, Jan 02, 2001 at 22:44:44 (GMT)
From: shp
Email: None
To: shp
Subject: Hey Turner, the one above this is mine to you (nt)
Message:
rsvp
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Date: Tues, Jan 02, 2001 at 18:20:25 (GMT)
From: cq
Email: None
To: shp
Subject: and the shape of the thing of the things to come?
Message:
Ah, felicitous mirrenial gleetings to you, glasshopper

You think Sir Patlick Moore (the insclutible astlonomer) would say: 'terescope is glater than Universe, 'cos telescope show you Universe'?

I think not.

Honorable Steve (the mighty) Quint, came up with another good one, lecently:

I think it went:
'T-shirt is greater than guru, cos t-shirt show you guru'.

Plosperity and ruv to you in 2000 and 1.

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Date: Mon, Jan 01, 2001 at 03:40:06 (GMT)
From: Jerry
Email: None
To: shp
Subject: Do you really see God?
Message:
Sandy,

I can only assume that you must have had, and continue to have, some kind of experience with Knowledge that you feel is the experience of God. I can't relate to that. I've never had any such experience. But I try to put myself in your shoes and look at it from your perspective.

Yes, it would seem odd that somebody is a leading advocate of a method of meditation that reveals God, but apparently has a very low moral character. What could God be possibly thinking about, eh, to entrust the means of revealing himself to one of such detestable character (if the rumors are true) as Maharaji?

Fortunately, for me, I've never experienced God through meditation or darshan, so I'm not confronted by your dilemna. I would only suggest that you re-examine your experiences and ask yourself, is this really God I'm experiencing? Indeed, is there really such a thing as God at all? Because, if it's not God you're experiencing, than you're not faced by such a dilemna as you constantly profess.

If there is no God, then Maharaji has not revealed him to you, much less been chosen by him for this glorious purpose. Now, I'm not saying you haven't been revealed God. All I'm saying is to re-examine your conviction that you have been. Are you absolutely one hundred percent certain that you have been? If you are, than yeah, you're faced with a confusing dilemna. But if there's room for doubt about this, you might be able to rid yourself of one that's only imagined.

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Date: Mon, Jan 01, 2001 at 04:03:26 (GMT)
From: shp
Email: None
To: Jerry
Subject: Pert sure...but there's always more
Message:
Hi Jerry,

Seen God a long time, if God is Light, Life and Love.

Seen alot of light since my teen years emanating from all physical objects, especially living creatures and plant life, and especially from people. When I received Knowledge, it was like seeing that part of me inside that was the interface between the invisible source of light and where it came through me.

When I see Christmas trees full of electric lights and tinsel and shiny ornaments, I just have to smile...like when I see fireworks on the 4th of July...both these activities are but relfections of the reality of lights and wonders that truly exist without the special effects and which I have been blessed to behold. How much of that experience is due to Maharaji or Knowledge, I don't know. I had alot of such times way before Knowledge (or acid too), just from reading or thinking about such phenomenae. And when Maharaji came along and told us he'd been with us for a long time, that we did not choose him but that he chose us, that he was the source of it all and in touch with it 24/7, it made a deep impression on me. How much of that impression is real and how much is a magnification of his projected image in my brain I may never know.

I have seen my newborn children squirm out of my wife, I have seen my brother Lenny take his last breath, I have seen my parents get old and small and more gentle and tolerant, I have seen a world of people who celebrate love a few times a year on specific days and live daily life like animals. I have seen a dear high school friend who had it all commit suicide by asphixiating himself in his folks' BMW, I have seen my life flash before my eyes as I was thrown from a car doing 65 mph. I have seen the pinkness and love of a friend's beating sacred heart through skin and a white shirt.

I have seen a young boy come around the world and claim he was going to bring peace to it and then live a life that seems anything but peaceful.

I think I have seen God and then some. But being infinite, there is always more of God to see. I eagerly await with eyes pealed.
To Your Health and Happy New Year,

Sandy

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Date: Mon, Jan 01, 2001 at 09:15:43 (GMT)
From: JohnT
Email: None
To: shp
Subject: Going, going on, going on beyond. Always becoming.
Message:
I don't know if you've ever heard of William James, Sandy, he wrote a book early last century called The Varieties of Religious Experience.

I've had a few extra-ordinary experiences myself. One inspired me to write almost my first poem (1979). I was going for a job interview and nipped into a quiet church to calm and centre myself with a little meditation (zazen, sitting quietly doing nothing except attending to the breath). Does the poem express a revelation? Or is it more one guy's way of expressing a feeling of Oneness (as occasioned by meditation and some rather notable ecclesiastical architecture)? It's naif, but I hope you like it...

It always rests, this cool calm place,
Roofed by webs of thrusting stone.
Bourne high in massive, lofty grace,
God's house, tho' human work to hone.

There is a path that takes us where
No slough of mundane pain can come.
In deepest silent void Despair
and Hope are seen to be as one.

True church is in our deepest space
to take each troubled soul within;
With peace to salve the raging waves
that harass souls to reefs of sin.

Peaceful presence always Is.
No roof, no walls define its bounds.
Huge and patient in all ages,
Whenever sought is Presence found.

Anyway, had I a visual mind, I might have expressed the feeling as a painting - or even as a vision. A musician might have rendered the experience in sound and voices, as a revelation. I think that many people have such insights, and then express them in various ways, according to our prior experiences, and the way our minds work.

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Date: Sun, Dec 31, 2000 at 21:53:24 (GMT)
From: la-ex
Email: None
To: shp
Subject: shp-would EV like your thing?ever ask them?
Message:
shp-I have enjoyed reading your posts, and you and I and many others seem to be on a similar journey in realizing that m is not what we thought him to be.
I remember once having lunch with Jeff Wilson, m's gardener for many years. He was very angry, in the process of leaving the cult(he didn't say so, but he split shortly thereafter), and had had a series of power struggles and run ins with marolyn that infuriated him, in the way that she would power-trip all of these guys who were working for nothing, day after day...

Jeff said 'one thing you need to know, which most premies don't know is this. mr. and mrs. rawat are NOTHING like you think they are. they absolutely feel that they are superior beings to you, they will use you, and they feel that it is their right to do so....
I'm beginning to understand now, many years later...

Anyway, have you ever seriously considerted writing to EV and asking them to open up part of their web site to posts like yours? They are not inflammatory, and most of the time are well written and thought out, and simply posing good questions from a long time supporter of m. Why would they object?

Seriously, why don't you write up a post that is respectful, but asks some of these questions,ask them to post it and create a place for other similar posts. If they don't want to, respectfully ask them why...why won't they allow it?..or could they recommend a place where you could post it, with links to the EV site...I would specifically ask them WHY they don't allow ANY posts that question or critique, but do allow ONLY those that parrot the party line...

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Date: Sun, Dec 31, 2000 at 21:05:03 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: shp
Subject: What a simple question
Message:
Who among us thought it would be OK or even possible that our designated Master could deliver the revealation of the Knowledge of God, but that the rest of his life be so riddled with problems and inconsistencies that dwarf many of ours?

No one. That's because it's preposterous.

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Date: Sun, Dec 31, 2000 at 21:06:48 (GMT)
From: Selene
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: hahaha good one
Message:
I almost posted the same thoughts just before reading yours.
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Date: Tues, Jan 02, 2001 at 03:47:15 (GMT)
From: sb
Email: None
To: Selene
Subject: hahaha good one
Message:
You don't expect him to answer you, do you? LOL

Don't worry, there is more than the two of us. He doesn't answer my posts either. I like him though because thanks to him particularly I became un-brainwashed. Is that a word? Probably not but you get the point. We need his strong endurance. :)I had to say it.

What a bunch we are, ex angels.

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Date: Sun, Dec 31, 2000 at 20:59:34 (GMT)
From: Roger eDrek
Email: drek@oz.net
To: shp
Subject: The thing of the thing
Message:
Happy New Year and God bless everyone who reads this.

Dang! I'm blessed because I did read it. Well, I feel like I need a little blessing myself, too. So, thanks, shp.

I read it and, you know, I liked it, shp. I liked your post because it asked some good honest questions.

I would like to think that I am detached in that I don't really care if premies stop following Maharaji or not. It's their business and if they are getting something positive out of it then so be it. And I think that meditation whether Maharaji's brand or any other is fine, too. But I think what I want is to try and understand and sort out the phenomenon that happened to all of us here and it seems that, shp, you are asking that as well.

Happy New Year, shp.
Good luck with your career and life adventures, too. It's not always easy - let me tell you.

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Date: Sun, Dec 31, 2000 at 20:49:21 (GMT)
From: ham
Email: None
To: shp
Subject: Like you shp, my experience of meditation
Message:
was very powerful, that's meditation on the k techniques, not other meditations of a so called spiritual nature.

As I never felt close to gm, hated the org and was never involved, avoided communities like the plague, and left because of his incompetence in spreading this knowledge, I too have had a number of issues to deal with specifically around k, apart from issues re gm.

I never experienced god, it always came as a taoist zen experience of the moment with cosmic one mind tendencies, in spite of everything gm said, and the only parts of his talks that inspired were the taoist/zen bits, not the social commentary which I found inane and as time went on untrue, nor the god stuff, which I couldn't relate to at all, in fact as a non-god believer it pushed me away.

Now we know that these techniques don't work for everyone, even people who were really sincere in their practice, so there is nothing universal about the techniques.
So anything supposedly universal that we are experiencing is not because of our humility or approach, but I suspect a thing of luck.

So what is happening for us when we do the techniques, which by the way, still work just as powerfully for me, even though I can't practice long term because of the association with the gm creep factor.

Now using your line of argument it could be god loves me so much that in spite of the fact that I don't believe in him/it/her and that if god did exist I would recommend a cosmic therapist etc etc. Highly unlikely.

So what are we left with, since I have no desire to get cosmic through any other route, have no spiritual interests now at all.
The one thing I know is that whenever I had stronger experiencesa than normal it was always obvious to me that chemical changes were happening in my body, VERY obvcious. Since I also now know that mescalin type drugs are activated through the pineal gland, that having done ecstacy am certain that serotonin, almost identical in chemical structure to ecstacy, and the key chemical component in every single nerve cell communication, ie a whole body thing, is being activated. When you throw in dmt as a natural body drug, probably activated in nde's, ie pure liught, cosmic one love communicating with, subtle high pitched sounds, etc. Which leaves out cannabis, another body produced naturally drug, and dopamine, and any number of other trippy drugs, well the odds look stacked from the chemical end. When you throw in those magnet over the brain producing god experiences, even for atheists, then the odds look stacked.

Looks to me like you need to be looking at your need afor an external god, and start looking at it as a metaphor for whole body experiences.

Blah de blah.

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Date: Mon, Jan 01, 2001 at 01:17:24 (GMT)
From: shp
Email: None
To: ham
Subject: The semipermeable membrane of this body is just
Message:
that. So when it all comes down to it, there is no inner and outer. It's all one thing. Catch a wave and surf it into shore,
have a cool drink and shower down and have a great new year's eve.
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Date: Mon, Jan 01, 2001 at 14:49:21 (GMT)
From: hamzen
Email: None
To: shp
Subject: If as you say it's all one thing,
Message:
which in a systems/cybernetic way makes perfect sense, then why the need to use a word 'god' that in some ways describes something seperate/different.

Life is life, why the need for words, belief systems at all?

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Date: Mon, Jan 01, 2001 at 16:22:09 (GMT)
From: Jerry
Email: None
To: hamzen
Subject: You are just soooo zen
Message:
Hi Ham,

I like zen, too. It's the only form of eastern thought I can relate to. My best moments are always ones of clear consciousness free from the ever present cloud of neurosis hanging over my head.

Have you read Ambivalent Zen by any chance? If you haven't, you might want to check it out. I'm about halfway through it. It's a very human account of one man's journey with zen. It's very readable.

Happy New Year!

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Date: Mon, Jan 01, 2001 at 18:00:44 (GMT)
From: ham
Email: None
To: Jerry
Subject: You are just soooo zen
Message:
Hi Jerry,

I must admit I'm sick of reading ANYTHING to do with spiritual practices, whether zen or whatever. I read so much in the past and all it did was confirm what I was already realizing through my life experiences and meditation. I do have a problem with official zen.
A couple of years back I visited a supposedly kosher zen site on the net. There was a photo of all the followers of that path and their teachers, it was scary, they all looked the same, physically the same & dead serious, it was spooky.

An official zen persaon would probably say my approach is shallow, like some 50's beatnik approach, but who gives a fuck, I always loved the rogue zen people, but especially Basho's poetry, that says it all for me, because in the end there's just the moment, and the moment just is. Everything else is just theory, belief, which of course is what premies say gm's talking about, yet when you look at how much theory, explanation, belief systems premies carry about, and we know where they got that from, yuch.

In fact, apart from research into the brain and some systems/cybernetic second order stuff, I'm sick of reading full stop, which of course you understand doesn't mean I'm anti, music and visual stuff does it for me now.
Also once you've read a couple of books on zen the message is very clear, it's back to your own life etc etc, but then I did read humungous amounts on buddhism and taoism back in the day so.......

Having said that, the book looked interewsting since it seemed it was very human, the other title there about the zen student kicked out looked like an interesting title too, but shit, why is there so little time to do everything. Been off work for two months now, and still haven't caught up on everything.

The house scene is going through a major renaissance here at the moment, great vibe, almost like the early days, love it. South AmericA, right across, is also getting into all that shit now, looks REALLY good vibe, would love to be able to afford to visit there, but what I love about all these house scenes is great vibe, but none of that sixties naivete. Yes, yes, yes.

Good to see ya round, mind you regular breaks from here are really healthy, only SO much lpeasure a person can take, even doing invert service!

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Date: Mon, Jan 01, 2001 at 19:54:19 (GMT)
From: Jerry
Email: None
To: ham
Subject: You are just soooo zen
Message:
This book's different from your ordinary, boring, authoratative, lecture type books on what zen is all about. The readers' reviews at Amazon.com really make me wonder if those people and I read the same book. It's really just a guy who happens to be a gifted writer sharing what a rocky road it's been for him traveling the path of zen. It almost reads like a novel. Most importantly, it's honest. He doesn't claim to have achieved enlightenment, just honestly shares the ups and downs he's experienced trying to connect with his Buddha-nature. A lot of it is comical. It's just a refreshing change of pace from what you expect when reading on this subject, where one guy is supposedly enlightened and if you just follow his advice, you become enlightened too. No, Shainberg (the auther of Ambivalent Zen) goes further than that. He touches your soul because you see your own journey in his.

Oh, btw, keep rockin', Ham :)

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Date: Sun, Dec 31, 2000 at 18:28:26 (GMT)
From: bill
Email: None
To: shp
Subject: That thingee
Message:
Hi Sanford,
Happy new year!
I of course have also been forced,I guess, to deal with many of those issues.
One that is easy to dismiss is that he is a master of 'this knowledge'. What would one have to do to qualify? Speak randomly
and claim to be the source of someone elses breath? YES!
Claim that because your father said so, that you were the ultimate ruler of humans? yes, and that you were the greatest god to hit the planet ever. Krishna, yeshua(jesus) eat your hearts out.

One good thing is that clear now, even with this 'king of knowledges' no one gets to any 'place' or 'experience' and can 'attain' and keep any status in the 'beyond'.
What does that tell us? try to answer that.

You know, you have a foot in two worlds. So did I. And I dont mean premie/expremie.

You believe and see what you believe is evidence of a self aware
god, yet you also think there is no self aware god:)

How about coming down on one side or the other and really meaning it. And definately not go back to the one foot in each mode whenever the typing fingers find it convenient to make a point.

Read you later.

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Date: Sun, Dec 31, 2000 at 18:24:39 (GMT)
From: Joy
Email: joy52@earthlink.net
To: shp
Subject: The thing of the thing
Message:
Hi SHP. That was a very nicely written and well-thought-out editorial. I don't know if I dare comment in my sleep-deprived and slightly hung-over from last night's party state this a.m., but one thing stands out that I need to comment on, and that is your rather holy reverence and respect for Knowledge (with the capital 'K'). I don't want to deny or invalidate your experience with meditation, but I feel that to glamorize or give knowledge some sort of importance over and above being four simple and, quite frankly from my perspective, rather boring meditation techniques, subtly imbues the guru with power and authority he obviously in no way deserves. It was and still is the cornerstone upon which he bases his whole illusion of perfect master, lord of the universe etc. and this needs to be examined, and put into perspective for what it is, so that M can then be put into perspective for what he is (and we all know what that is).

I'd be interested to know -- why are people still practicing knowledge? I personally felt it a blessed relief to be able to STOP laying that meditation trip on myself for X amount of time every day and just drop the whole thing along with the guru nonsense. As I was telling a friend the other day, I had a much better, more centering and enlightening experience doing TM than I ever did with 'Knowledge'. But the whole thing bores me to death. I'd rather take a walk in nature, that can really put you in touch with the holy, and is much more inspiring to me these days than knowledge ever was. Or see a good movie--that can really take you out of yourself, too. Any one of a hundred things. I'm sure everyone else has their ways of having 'that experience' sans guru and meditation. It IS within us at all times, as M used to preach, but I take serious issue with the notion that his four flimsy meditation techniques are the only way to get there. That's as big of an illusion as the Perfect Master charade and one which, I feel, needs to be examined here also.

Anybody? Now I'm heading back to bed! Happy guru-and-meditation-free new millennium to all!

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Date: Sun, Dec 31, 2000 at 19:44:21 (GMT)
From: Disculta
Email: None
To: Joy
Subject: The thang of the thang
Message:
Yeah, I agree with Joy. I liked your post, Sanford, but couldn't and can't understand the magical power given to the 'giver of Knoweldge.' Have you read the radhasoami sections on this website. Him and hundreds of others are the 'one, true giver of Knowledge' (those particular techniques or similar combinations). I personally know some Sant Mat people, who have been practicing the same techniques for a long time, and they have seemingly a better experience than I ever had, perhaps because they received more actual meditation instruction than the mere placement of fingers, which is all MJ does in Knowledge sessions.

I've been in hundreds of Knoweldge sessions. I travelled with Mahatmas in various countries for years, and was responsible for 'preparing' people (checking their leel of brainwashedness), explaining the techniques, watching them receive the techniques, sometimes being the putter-on of hands when the mahatma was lazy, etc. Although I tried to deny it, and certainly didn't allow anyone the freedom to express it back then, the overriding experience of the majority of people when receiving Knowledge was DISAPPOINTMENT. When I would see them some months later it was now politely-suppressed disappointment, sublimated into devotion or some other intense neurotic behavior, which the cult gave ample opportunities for (like being a dour security person, or an always-tragic gopi, etc.).

This is not to say that the techniques are nothing. But they're not his, and they're not the most powerful spiritual thing I've ever come in contact with. My really powerful spiritual life, in which I started to actually directly experience my source and feel various levels of ecstasy and stuff like that, began AFTER I left Maharaji.

Love Disculta

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Date: Mon, Jan 01, 2001 at 01:26:44 (GMT)
From: shp
Email: None
To: Disculta
Subject: Twang that thang
Message:
Hey Disculta,

Love that name...reminds me of Mortitia (Addams).
So what are you wearing...!?

I think that I am still locked into the 'little child shall lead them' prophecy that is told in Judeo-Christian, South American Indian (nino de oro), and various other cultures about the son of man's coming this time. He fit the discription, filled the bill for a time, and played it very well in the beginning.

My cerebro-spinal cortex, memories, studies and life experiences were almost tailored made to receive, recognize him as the One and accept him when he showed up in my life. That's not an easy thing to forget about or wash away. It's very very deep.

But you know what? Some of the shit I have been reading here has been like roto-rooter and I have regained some of my own divinely given and inspired discernment and am starting to use it. Feels like learning to walk again after a head-on with an 18-wheeler.

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Date: Mon, Jan 01, 2001 at 01:38:39 (GMT)
From: Disculta
Email: None
To: shp
Subject: Twang that thang
Message:
Mortitia - that's who I remind mysel fof under this name! I've been trying to remember. I'm wearing cool stuff, but Maharaji never propostitioned me.

Yeah, I know what you mean about the little child prophecy stuff and the nervous system perfectly swallowing it back when. Me too.

It got roto-rooted from my brain a long time ago and I have heard nearly two decades of other kinds of cosmic stuff which has balanced it out to the point where it seems silly.

Anyway, rather than the Bible, I like to read 'Prayers of the Cosmos, The Aramaic Sayings of Jesus.' (Neil Douglass-Klotz). Now there's a cosmic universal message. I highly highly recommend this book.

Talking of impermeable membranes, we're all swimming in the same amniotic ocean ain't we? Surf on dude.

Love Disculta

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Date: Mon, Jan 01, 2001 at 01:56:14 (GMT)
From: shp
Email: None
To: Disculta
Subject: Aramaic - Back to the root language of the Bible
Message:
Check out George Lamsa's translation of the Old and New Testaments and another book he wrote entitled 'Gospel Light', in which he opens up much meaning. All of his books are translated from and refer to the Aramaic. Very enlightening stuff.

Thanks for the lead to that other book.

You never said what you were wearing, and since it's New Year's Eve, what the hell. I am sure I'm not the only one who's curious, especially after you said you flashed on Mortitia too.

hahahahahahohohohohohehehehehe

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Date: Mon, Jan 01, 2001 at 14:34:08 (GMT)
From: Disculta
Email: None
To: shp
Subject: Aramaic - Back to the root language of the Bible
Message:
Sorta baggy neutral-colored sweats I'm afraid. That's because my hubby and I decided to celebrate New Year's by doing a liver flush. Now it's New Year's morn and we're waiting by the bathroom for the little green stones to come out.

More than you wanted to know, I bet!

But I have Mortitia clothes too.

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Date: Tues, Jan 02, 2001 at 01:34:51 (GMT)
From: shp
Email: None
To: Disculta
Subject: Hey, regards to the hubby and I bet you look
Message:
great in sweats. Really, Mr. D, no disrespect intended.
We was jus' jokin' aroun', no biggie, it's all good, you know?
Respects to you and the Mrs. I just got a feelin' you are one lucky man.

Never did a liver flush, but have taken Can-gest, a capsule that cleans the liver. And I've done a number of different types of enemas, coffee (also cleans the liver), oat straw tea (cleans the brain), raspberry (all-purpose), and also have included Vitamin C crystals. Very cleansing and good stuff.

Little greens stones...I hope for your sake they were not too big, no siree.


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Date: Tues, Jan 02, 2001 at 04:16:04 (GMT)
From: Disculta
Email: None
To: shp
Subject: My waxy green new year's gift to hubby
Message:
No worries mate - very resilient hubby (ex from another cult).

So his green stones came out this morning, but not mine. Then, while he was out, mine came out. So I put them on a paper plate, called him on his cellphone and promised him a surprise on a paper plate when he returned. Then I had a brilliant idea to kick off the new millennium. I found CAPERS in the fridge, so I put them on a paper plate and showed them to him when he walked in. He was very impressed (they were bigger than his). Then I ate one right in front of him. He screamed and ran out of the room with his hands over his ears 'aaaaarrrrghhhh that's the grossest thing I ever saw you do!'

What a caper! Ah what a jokester am I.

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Date: Tues, Jan 02, 2001 at 08:56:31 (GMT)
From: shp
Email: None
To: Disculta
Subject: Thanks for the chuckle
Message:
Hi Dissy,

That was cute. You must be alot of fun to live with.
I was up answering Rabbi Gutnick (check it out below) in the middle of the night and just happened to see your post shining at me.

Please pass the olives....

Sandy

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Date: Sun, Dec 31, 2000 at 21:37:33 (GMT)
From: Roger eDrek
Email: drek@oz.net
To: Disculta
Subject: DISAPPOINTMENT
Message:
majority of people when receiving Knowledge was DISAPPOINTMENT

Indeed!

I like Joy had a better meditation experience with TM. In fact, when I got my TM technique (before I got the Big K) I showed up with $35 and an orange, I got the technique and practiced there and had a deep and powerful experience. And I didn't have any idea about who the Maharishi was or didn't know anything about anything spiritual.

Not so with Maharaji's Knowledge. No, I had to get brainwashed or 'prepared' first for however long.

Although, I think the TM thing in latter years got a little more Maharishi-centric I feel that the simplicity of just paying the money and getting high on meditation says much about the simplicity of meditation. And compare that to the Maharaji experience where most people were disappointed in the actual Knowledge session. However, the brainwashing had begun and it was too late. And soon it becomes apparent that the real focus of Maharaji is worshipping and enriching Maharaji. And, yeah, people get off on that kind of thing.

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Date: Sun, Dec 31, 2000 at 22:08:13 (GMT)
From: TED Farkel
Email: None
To: Roger eDrek
Subject: We'll miss you tonite Mr. eDrek,how's the mind?
Message:
Dear Mr. eDrek-

We're gonna miss ya son, down here in Shaft,Alabama tonight, bringin in the first year of the new millenium.

Us country boys can PARTY, believe me Mr. eDrek, so I've been encouraged to drop the one beer/video rule for tonight, and it will be open bar at the shop from 8pm-2am. It'll be an all night affair, with a country extravaganza of videos, along with flashing green toilet bowls on the ceiling (from our favorite site) and m doing that kinda chicken/topless/boob dance that would just drive madonna wild with envy, flashing on the walls, along with one of those psychedelic mirror balls in the middle of the whole shebang...of course I'm bringing out my best moonshine made here in the shop, and at midnight, we'll all be bringing in the premie new year the best we know how, why of course with an old hub cap, used motor oil, and shop rags, singin arti to our lord and master.

Hope ole Dave Smith can stay up that late with us to party hardy,cos we're not lettin up even if he does retire early in the loft upstairs with my 2 blue-tic hounds,next to the transmission graveyard...

Well, that's it for now, Mr. eDrek....sorry you can't make it this year...I got the feelin that you just might be one helluva righteous partier, by your sense of humor...and don't fret none about that ole mind..it even gets us new shiny dv/auto knowledge premies once in a while...you'll be OK son...

TED Farkel
(partying with DAVE)

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Date: Mon, Jan 01, 2001 at 01:58:05 (GMT)
From: suchibanzai-no
Email: None
To: TED Farkel
Subject: Didn't m say,A mind is a terrible thing to have?nt
Message:
nt
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Date: Tues, Jan 02, 2001 at 22:07:05 (GMT)
From: Steve Quint
Email: the_avenger55@hotmail.com
To: suchibanzai-no
Subject: Arigatou Gozaimashita Lol nt
Message:
nt
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Date: Sun, Dec 31, 2000 at 02:25:24 (GMT)
From: Tom
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: Where are the WhistleBlowers?
Message:
The ex-premie org seems to be dedicated to two opposing principles:

1. Demanding an apology from Rawat for deceiving his gullible (ex-)followers even though the evidence seems to suggest that he actually believes his own divine claims - despite all evidence to the contrary - thereby showing he's as gullible as his (ex-)followers.

2. Trying to prove he's the very type of sociopathic scumbag who wouldn't make such an apology in a million mayas.

Thus it seems that the ex-premies are still as innocent and quixotic as they were when they first joined the Deluded Life Mission. However the evidence that Rawat really is a dope-smoking, pwk-fucking drunk seems a little light on the ground.

There seems to be only one real attested eye-witness prepared to 'spill the beans' - Michael Dettmers, a self-confessed scumbag offsider whose financial future now seems to depend on toeing the ex-premie line or else being outed all over the Internet.

It seems almost miraculous that after nearly 30 years of Maharajic misdeeds there's nothing but Dettmers between this mish-mash of second-hand innuendo and anonymous tales.

What kind of lawyers are you guys?

Tom

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Date: Mon, Jan 01, 2001 at 01:52:46 (GMT)
From: Wish
Email: None
To: Tom
Subject: Few WhistleBlowers, but many listeners...
Message:
There aren't that many that post here, but this web site is quite busy. I am one who reads a lot on this forum but almost never post.
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Date: Mon, Jan 01, 2001 at 00:56:00 (GMT)
From: Katie
Email: None
To: Tom
Subject: Uhh, Tom...
Message:
I've been hanging around Ex-Premie.org for a long time, and my number one goal in both posting on the forum and contributing to the site is helping people who want to leave Maharaji's organization by providing a venue in which people can read what ex-premies know and/or think about Maharaji and then make up their own minds. Thus neither of your two stated goals applies to me - or, I imagine, to many other people who post here.

Also, you can say what you want about Michael Dettmers, but I believe that the revelations he is making now are potentially FAR more damaging to his career, or his business, than the page about him on 'Roger's House of Drek' was (Sorry, Roger, but I think it's true.) I respect him very much for making these disclosures in a public place - no one was holding a gun to his head - unless you count the former portrayal of him on 'House of Drek' as a major impediment to his business (I do not.)

I realize that Michael's revelations are rocking the premie world. However, even before Michael began posting on this forum, there were plenty of ex-premies - and there were plenty of premies who became ex-premies because of what was said on this forum. Frankly, becoming an ex-premie doesn't necessarily require the gaining of 'inside information' - it often is just a result of a 'feeling in your heart' that Maharaji's path is not right. That is what did it for me - and for many other people here.

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Date: Sun, Dec 31, 2000 at 21:56:54 (GMT)
From: Owl
Email: None
To: Tom
Subject: Where are the WhistleBlowers? , ... ( You say... )
Message:
Tom, you say among other things,

'The ex-premie org seems to be dedicated to two opposing principles:'

You then go on and describe #1., and then, #2.. Well, first of all thank you for putting it in the form of a questioning puzzlement, instead of a belligerent statement of fact, (which I see that it is not), the word that stands out to me that you have used is the word, {seems}.

I will for the moment take you at your word that that is how it seems too you. It does not too me. And this is what I think, I think that there are many things that this Site is dedicated to, such as the exposing of Guru Maharaj Ji for being a fraud, (His claiming to be the Perfect Master, with the one and only authority to reveal this thing called KNOWLEDGE to one and all), among a seemingly endless list of other things that are reprehensible. I am speaking for myself at this time, but I do feel what I am expressing is felt also by most here. I also feel that among the dedications that are imbued here are ones of self examination as the many wonderful users, new and old alike of this Site interact with each other, and in a way with themselves, and also through this we give OURSELFS the opportunity to grow, to raise our consciousness and to hopefully have a better World come forth.

Yes, this is what I see.........


The law can be such a political creature at times, but the true happiness that I and others seek and dedicate themselves to seeing that happens here, and that being that the dedication to this Site is put forth as I have described so that others also retain that right to also pursue that inalienable right to do as they so see fit as well, is alive and strong here, and your last point of having lawyers do such and such....., well, even if it goes at a snails pace the lawyers and or others bringing, (M), to a Court and or group and having him sentenced and pay a penalty is in a way already happening. And YES maybe someday soon he will have to appear in a Court, and to be put in jail, but again, that (Court) that group, that is here, and is continuing to come here, for the many reasons for being here as I have described, they also let it be know that, Maharaji is a, well, I will let what they say, speak for it self on this, (World Internet Stage).

Anonymously Posted by:

Owl


P.S., If you have a problem with an anonymous Post, just because it is anonymous, well as I see it that is your problem...


lol

Owl

.

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Date: Sun, Dec 31, 2000 at 21:35:07 (GMT)
From: la-ex
Email: None
To: Tom
Subject: Where are the WhistleBlowers?
Message:
Tom-it is precisely in doing #1(asking or demanding an apology from M), that the premise of #2 is proven (he is incapable of giving one). This then leads to #3(it most likely is true).

I think it is in the consistent and unrelenting questioning and asking of m to explain his bizarre and amoral behavior,followed up by his refusal to talk, that makes most people(except possibly the most brainwashed) believe he did all this stuff. If he was innocent, don't you think he would be railing against these allegations, and suing those people?

Why don't more people come forward?
some have, and have been threatened.
many people are afraid.
many people have ex-spouses who could use their testimonial of being in a cult, as eveidence agains them in court.
many people just want to forget about it entirely.(I believe they will eventually have to deal with it)

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Date: Sun, Dec 31, 2000 at 19:39:53 (GMT)
From: hamzen
Email: None
To: Tom
Subject: Where are the WhistleBlowers?
Message:
The ex-premie org seems to be dedicated to two opposing principles:
1. Demanding an apology from Rawat for deceiving his gullible (ex-)followers even though the evidence seems to suggest that he actually believes his own divine claims - despite all evidence to the contrary - thereby showing he's as gullible as his (ex-)followers.
2. Trying to prove he's the very type of sociopathic scumbag who wouldn't make such an apology in a million mayas.
Thus it seems that the ex-premies are still as innocent and quixotic as they were when they first joined the Deluded Life Mission. However the evidence that Rawat really is a dope-smoking, pwk-fucking drunk seems a little light on the ground.

The dope smoking I knew about in 1974. Although not a pam, I remember having a discussion with Robyn Heslop, Milky Cole, and Ron Geaves where the topic came up. Re the sexual stuff there is at least one other eye witness account where she stated that it was the most bizarre night of her life and he was incompetent, and the affair with Monica Lewis sounds like it was common knowledge amongst a lot of people.
The question is WHY don't people come forward, and I can think of a number of reasons as anyone can re gm, especially regarding the way a lot of people left. Denial is a powerful force in premie life, we all felt we weren't in a cult, it was a big thing that we weren't, the psycho makeup of most premies was very innocent nay childlike, so when that concept was blown you walk and don't think about it, also suspect that this will change as prewmies get over their technophobia, but couldn't agree more that more first hand accounts would only strengthen the argument.

There seems to be only one real attested eye-witness prepared to 'spill the beans' - Michael Dettmers, a self-confessed scumbag offsider whose financial future now seems to depend on toeing the ex-premie line or else being outed all over the Internet.
It seems almost miraculous that after nearly 30 years of Maharajic misdeeds there's nothing but Dettmers between this mish-mash of second-hand innuendo and anonymous tales.
This argument is specious. Say intitially Michael Dettmers did the MRC letter purely out of fear for his business interests, and slipped in a couple of critical comments, fine a fair enough argument, but it's going way beyond that. He knows he didn't need to put up more than that. Would you be happy to admit you were a pimp for gm, even if short term? Would you be happy to admit you were an accomplice in covering over the accident in India, wherwe gfm killed a cyclist while driving a car. No sounds to me like you've either got issues with Dettmers to resolve, or you are still an apologist for gm on some level because you still can't come to terms with just how dodgy gm really is. Now he's put this stuff up he has exposed himself more.
I personally think that there is more chance of this planet being saved environmentally than an apology coming from gm, an arrogant little bastard of the highest order, and by the way I'm 99.99% certain the planet isa completely fucked, and within 70 years.

What kind of lawyers are you guys?

I'll leave the lawyers here, if they can be bothered for the umpteenth time, to explain the legal sit. If you could be bothered you could search the archives for the legal stuff.

By the way, this is just a bunch of concerned individuals, just like you, not some high powered well financed org.
By your comments you have obviously left, and sound like you've got some issues to resolve, care to talk, or is this like the premie raids here, one specious post and then off?

Unless of course you're a complete outsider which is highly unlikely.

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Date: Sun, Dec 31, 2000 at 22:20:51 (GMT)
From: Aussi Ji
Email: None
To: hamzen
Subject: Where are the WhistleBlowers?
Message:
G'Day hanzen,I applaud you.Well said mate.

Aussi Ji.

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Date: Sun, Dec 31, 2000 at 03:16:28 (GMT)
From: Sir Dave
Email: sirdavid12@hotmail.com
To: Tom
Subject: There's just a handful of opponents
Message:
There's just a handful of active opponents to Maharaji at any one time. I'd say there were only about five people who have been regularly opposing him year after year.

But it's an indication of the internet's success and it also reveals the fact that Maharaji and Elan Vital have absolutely no answers to the 'opposing views'.

A bit like shooting ducks in the water, really.

People forget, however, that Maharaji used to sign his name as Sant Ji Maharaj and therefore should be shown all the due respect that one should give to a living saint.

Click here to see this living saint

and please pay due homage and respect to someone who has worked selflessly for the greater good, of himself.

.. Dave

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Date: Sun, Dec 31, 2000 at 03:03:31 (GMT)
From: Selene
Email: None
To: Tom
Subject: it is amazing isn't it?
Message:
I agree, in many ways the things posted here are Too little too late. I wish I could have read it all 10 years ago.

ahhh but you see there is one thing, the site is here! and it will stay here and will accomplish it's purpose on a grass roots level, if nothing else. It helped me get out a few years ago and I have seen it help a lot of people.

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Date: Sun, Dec 31, 2000 at 03:54:48 (GMT)
From: Aussi Ji
Email: None
To: Selene
Subject: I'll second that and third that!
Message:
nt
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Date: Sun, Dec 31, 2000 at 03:45:49 (GMT)
From: Oliver
Email: None
To: Selene
Subject: Yes it is amazing isn't it?
Message:
BTW, On clicking on the picture of St. Lard, I got an error message and the program shut down.
.
.
.. . . . . . . . . . But I refuse too follow suit,......
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
. . . . . . . . . . ;))
.
.
.. . . . . . . . . . .Blessings to ALL the premies.
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Date: Sun, Dec 31, 2000 at 03:53:42 (GMT)
From: Selene
Email: None
To: Oliver
Subject: hi Oliver welcome to happy hour
Message:
I didn't get a crash but I did go to a page with nothing but gambling ads for several seconds (which I thought appropriate anyway :) :) haha )
then, finally I was redirected to the Truth About M site.
Maybe you don't have Java enabled?

okaaaaayy I should really do my beta test crap I promised to do this (read last!) week. yuck uck ick, any ideas for a new career for someone who has been in computing since 1984?

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Date: Sun, Dec 31, 2000 at 04:14:23 (GMT)
From: Hi Selene
Email: None
To: Selene
Subject: Re: hi Oliver welcome to happy hour
Message:
Have you ever considered retirement.

And Java, isnt that somewhere in Sth.East Asia?

Oliver, whose system crashes regularly.

Hooroo

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Date: Sat, Dec 30, 2000 at 22:15:47 (GMT)
From: Susan
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: A poll for all ex premies ( and premies too)
Message:
Imagine yourself at the height of your belief in and devotion to Guru Maharaj Ji ( or Maharaji if you are a more recnt ex) . You are at a festival and just went through darshan. You are blissed out. You are in a reverie of guru ecstacy. Gardenia perfume fills the air.

Michael Dettmers, yes, THE Michael Dettmers, approaches you privately. Fianlly, the recogntion you deserve for your devotion.

Michael says your Guru Maharaj Ji wants to meet with you privately. You are to meet him at the Four Seasons Hotel at 11:00 pm, the Presidential suite, tonight. You are to tell no one you are coming, that is Maharaj Ji's agya. You wonder why Michael tells you to where the same suit, or dress, you wore in the Darshan line today.


You arrive, are escorted into the inner sanctum of the hotel suite.

Maharaj Ji tells you how he feels a strong connection to you, how he knows how much devotion you have, he tells you he wants to take your trust and devotion to a new level.....

at some point, you realize you are there because he wants to have sex with you.

You are a man, or you are a woman. What do you do? If you decide to leave....what do you say to Him? How do you tell your Lord no?

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Date: Tues, Jan 02, 2001 at 23:53:56 (GMT)
From: Suzanne
Email: None
To: Susan
Subject: Of course I would have done it, it a minute.
Message:
I certainly would have done it. Even if I was married, and knowing that he was also married, I would have felt very special and blessed to have Maharaji's personal attention, something had I dreamed of having but never did, because I believed he was the source of all happiness in my life and I believed I loved him, and I believed he was the superior power in person. It sounds insane but that was true.

Then, when he dumped me afterwards, ignored me, and I got the silent treatment, I would just pray to have 'that understanding' that Maharaji was just trying to teach me devotion and a lesson to not have attachments, even to Maharaji's physical form. You know, it was a lila, and he was being a jerk just for me. I would be miserable, but again, I would feel special. In this case, specially abused.

Something like that. And if he told me not to tell anyone, I wouldn't, for fear of forever being in his disfavor, and, in effect, being excommunicated.

What was that saying that if you offend God, you can go to Guru, but if you offend Guru, where can you go?

Sick, sick, sick, sick sick. That's for sure.

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Date: Tues, Jan 02, 2001 at 17:32:25 (GMT)
From: suchabananer
Email: None
To: Susan
Subject: What if he had asked premie guys to do Marolyn?(nt
Message:
nt
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Date: Tues, Jan 02, 2001 at 00:23:26 (GMT)
From: Monmot
Email: None
To: Susan
Subject: Do You Believe In Magic?
Message:
What the hell, I might as well start the New Year off with a bang.

I have to travel back to my personal Dark Ages in order to entertain this anti-fantasy, because the thought of having sex with Maharaji at this point in time is most decidedly an appetite suppressant.

I think in all honesty that I would have gone along with the program, all the way from saying 'yes' to Michael Dettmers to allowing myself to be both fucked and fucked over my Maharaji.

Thank god I can't really remember what I was like back then, in my pre-marathon-therapy days, but if I sort of allow myself to emotionally time travel, I can catch a glimmer of the girl I used to be (and, given my emotional IQ at the time, girl is what I was). Although my intellect at that time was an 8-cylinder affair, my emotions and my ability to feel them were still dog-paddling somewhere in the primordial soup. Otherwise, how could I have ever allowed myself to have been sucked in by a cult, right? That said, I think my rationale for letting myself be used by Maharaji would run something like this (although I might not have seen it at the time as me being used):

'He's God, he wants to sleep with me (nice euphemism that one), he's special, and since he wants me, I must be special.' On some level, I would have been looking to be 'saved,' a state of grace many women grow up believing (albeit unconsciously) will happen to them once Prince Charming gallops into town on his white steed to pick them up. And I don't necessarily mean being saved materially, but being saved from having to negotiate the existential abyss in order to avoid testing our navigational abilities and to see if we can survive the fall. Who wants to hang glide over the abyss, when Prince Charming in the form of the Perfect Master/God/Guru/Maharaji can preempt all that isolation, angst, sturm and drang, anomie?

Back then, since I thought Maharaji superceded humankind, I would've let him clip my wings in the hope of my achieving greater flying potential, much like a gardener pinches buds for a greater bloom. Maharaji was the cauldron containing all my father projections and achievement fantasies, and if I thought sleeping with him would be the alchemical tool for transmuting the lead of my life into the gold of 'being saved,' I would've gone for it, no doubt in my mind.

God only knows what would've happened when I discovered that I had been used instead as a one night stand. Rather than let my home grown citadel crash down upon me, I would've done a Glenn Close (a la Disculta) on Maharaji. I certainly would've shown up by the gates at Anacapa View Drive for many a morn, and when that ploy failed, as it would have to, I think the betrayal would crush me to near death. I'm a survivor, and I've survived some heinous things, but spiritual betrayal is a big one to get over. All of us were spiritually betrayed, but to have had it done in such a utilitarian and crass manner is pretty bone crushing. It would be difficult to find redemption in the thought that you were nothing more than a human kleenex in the Lord's mastubatory egotism.

Thank god I'm brunette.

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Date: Mon, Jan 01, 2001 at 01:50:03 (GMT)
From: Disculta
Email: None
To: Susan
Subject: A poll for all ex premies ( and premies too)
Message:
I think I would have been incredibly turned on in that unique premie way - you know, the dizzy, blissed-out, 'here's a bit of lint from his lotus sock' kind of way, just as I was when I was asked to sing Xmas carols (for the LORD HIMSELF!) etc.

I'm not sure how I would have reacted as I came to realize that Maharaji was in it for sex. I think, knowing my general tendencies at the time, that I might have processed the shit out of him first. 'What is your exact goal in wanting this..?.' 'How do you feel about your mother?' I guess at the time I was a frustrated therapist and he would have made good bait. In fact, I'm pretty sure I would have done this. No wonder he never asked - perhaps he had a modicum of intuition (I mean, I have some of the ah-requirements).

Early in my therapy career I heard a story about sexual abuse. It goes like this. There are three daughters, and two of them were incested by their dad at a young age. The third was not. Perhaps she was unattractive to the dad, or too bright to be a pushover. In any event, guess which one was eventually hospitalized long-term! The non-abused one, because she never got over the feelings of rejection.

I'm telling this very light-heartedly. In truth, I'm really glad this didn't happen to me. It would have played into my abandonment issues at a level that I don't know that I could have survived, with all the father--projections I already had on MJ. I feel really sad for those who did go through this, and want to offer them a safe space to talk about it here, if they possibly could consider doing so.

I think if MJ did that with me and then refused my calls, I would have done a Glenn Close (Fatal Attraction) thing on him.

Love Disculta

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Date: Mon, Jan 01, 2001 at 03:11:46 (GMT)
From: Susan
Email: None
To: Disculta
Subject: intuition
Message:
I think that one reason that the cult 'works' is that victimizers DO have intuition or at least insight into how ready people are to move on to the 'next level' of deception.

Kind of like Knowledge selection stuff you were talking about.

I know have read that most pedophiles are very good at choosing victims who are vulnerable and insecure enough, or just needy enough, to sucummb to their advances.

In terms of the cult, I am sure there was some sense of who was was ready to be 'x rated' just as there was a sense of who was ready for Knowledge. Actually, wouldn't you say that the cult really had a heirarchy of levels which you could pass through, each one you sold a bit more of your soul to pass into?

In that way I could see the women who got propositioned this way as seeing it as the next 'level'. Also, I am certain that in his 'selection' proccess he may have had a gut sense of who might freak out at the proposition, as many of us have thought we would, unless he found the freak out attractive, he probably looked for women who he thought would be able to deal with it. I just don't see how anyone could deal with it myself.

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Date: Mon, Jan 01, 2001 at 00:16:06 (GMT)
From: Katie
Email: None
To: Susan
Subject: A poll for all ex premies ( and premies too)
Message:
Susan, I would have started crying and probably would have lost it. I joined the cult in the first place to get away from the sex/drugs culture which was threatening to submerge me. I would have been FREAKED to realize that Maharaji was into that, too.

BTW, most of my friends who received K around the time that I did (we were all very young - ages 14 to 16) would have had the same reaction.

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Date: Sun, Dec 31, 2000 at 20:18:13 (GMT)
From: suchabanana
Email: None
To: Susan
Subject: Reply2 m:So,you'd like a banana up your fatass? nt
Message:
nt
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Date: Sun, Dec 31, 2000 at 18:56:58 (GMT)
From: hamzen
Email: None
To: Susan
Subject: No doubt what would have happened
Message:
Always felt intimidated by the guy, would have gone along to the room,
then as soon as he started coming on I would have completely freaked out, and I suspect it would have been a total breakdown.
The dissociation from seeing him in that way, the difficulties as a hetero male, in spite of my boarding school experiences, etc

the question would then be, would he rape or would he let it be if someone freaked out, there must be some women who completely flipped, until we know how evil he is, ie would he force sex in those circumstances it's difficult to know.

When you consider for most of us how long it took to walk, I remember feeling a couple of his satsangs in '76 were abusive & guilt laden and I didn't fully walk til '90-'93.
I suspect the mental confusion would have been total, and the mental paralysis total, as much because of the speed of the situation as anything else.

Personally I've had a hard time, no pun intended, coming to terms with these revelations because of the sheer number involved, and the completely uncaring way he walked away afterwards and sod the damage. With Monica I can understand, they knew each other, and a couple of others where he was obviously very nervous/shy, didn't surprize me, but the callous attitude, the numbers, but most of all his stupidity. On that scale he honestly couldn't have believed it would never be learnt by the wider community, almost unreal. Maybe this shows just how much hippy naivete I still have.

And last but definitely not least, no doubt in my mind, whatever the motivations of the women involved, that it was a TOTAL abuse of power, because whichever way you look at it it was in no way equal, and didn't he know that.
If he had gone with non-premie women, different matter, but he didn't because he knew he had a power thing over premie women, ie he put his power ahead of his own fear of rejection which is just about the ultimate act of cowardice.

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Date: Sun, Dec 31, 2000 at 19:03:38 (GMT)
From: Selene
Email: None
To: hamzen
Subject: non premie women would have laughed at him
Message:
Unless he paid a LOT of cash :)
I answered you also over on AG. Thanks for your response ham I think if I were male I'd have had a VERY similar reaction as you describe, total freak out.
We thought he was god after all.
or something beyond our mere conciousness and more evolved. How on earth would we be able to just say no like it was no big deal, as D Dog and shp imply?
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Date: Mon, Jan 01, 2001 at 02:43:29 (GMT)
From: Deputy Dog
Email: None
To: Selene
Subject: Selene here is my answer to no.
Message:
How on earth would we be able to just say no like it was no big deal, as D Dog and shp imply?

Selene, what does Knowledge have to do with sex? The two things are definitely different.

I'm a man, but even so I would have thought M was way out of line, and would have been appalled at such a suggestion or proposition.

I would have let him know I wasn't interested one way or another by crying (as Katie suggested) or by hurling.

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Date: Mon, Jan 01, 2001 at 03:32:59 (GMT)
From: Katie
Email: None
To: Deputy Dog
Subject: Since you quoted me, Dep...
Message:
I ONLY followed Maharaji because I thought he was 'beyond' sex. I did get a bit freaked out when he got married at age 16 (I'm a little bit older than him, but not much), but I rationalized that by the whole 'Holy Mother/Holy Family' bit.

I don't want to go into detail about my past here, but if I had found out that Maharaji - who I regarded as 'the Perfect Master' had desired me sexually, I would have either left instantly, or I'd be in a mental institution (or severely messed up) right now. I can't honestly say what it would have been - because I don't know how strong I would have been back then. Thank god it did NOT happen - that's all I can say.

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Date: Mon, Jan 01, 2001 at 02:52:02 (GMT)
From: Selene
Email: None
To: Deputy Dog
Subject: Dep Do says Selene, what does Knowledge have to
Message:
do with sex?

well dep I think you should ask M about that.
As for the rest are you reaaally reaally sure you wouldn't have loved a little taste of charananrit (or however it is referred to in those circles)????

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Date: Mon, Jan 01, 2001 at 03:17:05 (GMT)
From: Bazza
Email: None
To: Selene
Subject: Oh gross!!!!
Message:
As for the rest are you reaaally reaally sure you wouldn't have loved a little taste of charananrit

Thanks I was just eating yoghurt, huuuuurllll

If he came near me with his Magic Flute I'd have bitten it off.

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Date: Mon, Jan 01, 2001 at 03:24:07 (GMT)
From: Selene
Email: None
To: Bazza
Subject: hahahaha you area inspiring a top 10 list
Message:
Q. how M refers to his whatsit?
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Date: Mon, Jan 01, 2001 at 03:15:03 (GMT)
From: Deputy Dog
Email: None
To: Selene
Subject: Dep Do says Selene, what does Knowledge have to
Message:
Selene,

Knowledge has nothing to do with sex. Really! Trust me on this Selene. Knowledge is about transcending our senses.

As for the rest of your post, are you implying that charananrit is a metaphor for sperm? If so Selene, you have quite an active imagination. I don't think too many other premies have made this association.

In fact I think the exact words from arti are, 'Nectar from Satguru's feet . . ' If it had been 'Nectar from Satguru's dick . . .' I would probably have never been interested in received Knowledge.

And Jim wonders why I prefer using a pseudonym on this site.

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Date: Mon, Jan 01, 2001 at 03:22:35 (GMT)
From: Susan
Email: None
To: Deputy Dog
Subject: but Dog have you read the words to Golden Way?
Message:
Pull back the veil true lover
Plant your Holy Seed

It is on JMs site here.

Maybe things really are very different now, back back in the Mala days, I don't think any woman would have said no thanks. Freaked out, cried, lost it, yes, but I think we were too indcrinated to refuse him in a direct way.

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Date: Mon, Jan 01, 2001 at 03:26:05 (GMT)
From: Susan
Email: None
To: Susan
Subject: the whole classic tune
Message:
Golden Way

This song was a famous one in the 70s, and it's still sung to him today in the 90s during programs with Maharaji.

You call to us, Oh Lord
Like the flower calls to the bee.
And we rush to You, Oh Lord,
Like the rivers rush to the sea.

Chorus.
And though we'll try every day
To walk Your golden Way
Only by Your Grace,
By Your Mercy, can we approach You.

You're the only one, dear Master,
You're the one that we need.
Draw the veil away, true lover,
Plant Your Holy seed.

Chorus.

Wake us from our dream, Oh Father,
Show us why we're alive.
Hear us breathe Your Name, Oh Father,
Let us come back Inside.

Chorus.

Your love Is all, Maharaj Ji,
We've only sorrows to give.
But now we weep for joy, Maharaj Ji,
And You're the reason we live.

Chorus.

When we see You smile, Maharaj Ji,
Confusion's so far away.
Let us sing Your praise forever,
And make You smile every day.

Chorus.

Soon the world will know, Oh Lord,
That there's no reason to room
May we serve You well, Oh Lord,
To call Your lost children home.

Chorus.

You call to us, Oh Lord,
Like the flower calls to the bee.
And we rush to You, Oh Lord,
Like the rivers rush to the sea.

Chorus.

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Date: Mon, Jan 01, 2001 at 03:20:23 (GMT)
From: Selene
Email: None
To: Deputy Dog
Subject: you were the one who mentioned K and sex
Message:
in the same post first, not me.
And technically I think if his dirty bath water can be charananrit than why not other fluids? I mean who knows what he did in that bathtup anyway, after all he was in his teens :)
ahhh it's so complicated. No wonder I'm not into it and no wonder I do NOT use a psuedonym here :)

happy newyear whoever you are.

selene remembering the pubic hair scene from Slacker

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Date: Mon, Jan 01, 2001 at 03:29:51 (GMT)
From: Selene
Email: None
To: Selene
Subject: and do we REALLY know
Message:
what was shooting out of those jet propulsion water guns at Holi?
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Date: Mon, Jan 01, 2001 at 19:21:14 (GMT)
From: Deputy Dog
Email: None
To: Selene
Subject: Selene, maybe you are right about this.
Message:
Selene, the more I think about it, the more I'm willing to concede that maybe you're right about this. There does seem to be a lot of double entendres and similarities between romantic relationships and devotion.

One of my daughters is into the music and poetry of Hildegard of Bingen and it seems to me that Hildegard definitely had a thing for Jesus. I was just a drug addled ex-jock back in the 70s when devotion was the rage and was thankfully blissfully unaware of any sexuality associated to M. But you must know by now that men are hogs, all men.

I broke my leg once and was taken to the hospital. When the nurse was manipulating my leg to take ex-rays the pain was excrutiating, but I can distinctly remember checking out her cleavage with genuine interest. IMO this is how men are made.

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Date: Sun, Dec 31, 2000 at 20:57:55 (GMT)
From: ham
Email: None
To: Selene
Subject: And didn't he know it, it would have been a
Message:
lot safer, since no-one would have known who he was, risk of loss of guru status etc, but fear of rejection etc.

There is one other possibility that it's an unconscious way of blowing his cover, which somewhere within him must a process like that happening, apart from the other obvious ones. When he blows he's really gonna blow, can you imagine the psycho repression and fucked upness about reality he's carrying around. Especially since we already know the degree of his temper.

Couldn't agree more re shp and deputy dog's responses, obvious they can't cope with the concept, denial etc.

Will e-mail soon. just getting through my backlog after after my work related burn-out.

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Date: Sun, Dec 31, 2000 at 23:56:41 (GMT)
From: Cynthia
Email: None
To: ham
Subject: Everything said here it so pertinent!
Message:
Hi Ham and Selene,

What you both said about M's abuse of power, and using power to abuse is so true. I am an extremist on this issue, I call it rape. I don't debate it because it's a very hot-button issue, but anyone who experiences negative life altering experiences, such as PTSD, Panic, Anxiety, the gamut--has been raped. It's all about the power and control and Maharaji's behavior is unconscionable and inexcusable. THAT'S right MAHARAJI. Inexcusable!!!! Asshole. How do you live with yourself?

I honestly don't know how Maharaji lives with himself. Well, of course, there is the dope and booze and luxury--but, even as HE taught, that does not necessarily bring happiness::))

Yet, he has hell to pay for all of his crimes, ammoral and immoral behavior, his acts of self-serving cowardice, complicity in unspeakable crimes committed by his cult brainwashed PAMs, mahatmas or bais.

I wish those women would come forward. It would be an act of courage, but not shame, because the shame belongs to Maharaji who should have known better. The idiot.

My 3cents,
Love,
Cyn

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Date: Sun, Dec 31, 2000 at 18:02:31 (GMT)
From: Helen
Email: None
To: Susan
Subject: A poll for all ex premies ( and premies too)
Message:
Honestly, back then I am not sure what I would have done but it would have involved a lot of trauma for me either way. Not being one to be able to hide traumas, I would have talked about it, and my friends and family would have helped me sort it out and I would have come to realize what a turd he was. And would have gotten out a lot sooner than I did!
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Date: Sun, Dec 31, 2000 at 16:57:17 (GMT)
From: Rick
Email: None
To: Susan
Subject: A poll for all ex premies ( and premies too)
Message:
I would have said 'Is it in yet, maharaji?'

No, seriously, the women I remember who lived in the ashram were head over heels in love with maharaji. It seemed like their secret wish was to have a 'love relationship' with maharaji, and that they would have construed his advances to mean that. It wouldn't have been until they realized they'd been used that any pain would have set in. And that probably would've occurred long after the tryst.

So... from a twisted male's perspective, I think many women would've thought it was heaven while it was happening.

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Date: Sun, Dec 31, 2000 at 18:30:58 (GMT)
From: Cynthia
Email: None
To: Rick
Subject: Hi Rick....
Message:
What you said about ashram sisters is very true. We often called ourselves nuns.

I was brought up in a strict, Polish Catholic tradition (which I don't regret btw). I had two cousins who became nuns. I was a ''flower girl'' for a priest's ''first mass.'' Many of my parent's closest friends were priest and nuns, (boy could I tell you stories) and my understanding both as a child and a young adult was that nuns were ''married'' to Christ...they even wear wedding bands.

After nuns take their final vows (also celebrations I attended as a child)--that was it--bonded forever, or face possible ex-communication from the Church. Yet both of my cousins left after they'd taken their final vows, (and they were real sisters, who came away with a teaching degree and a nursing degree, so were able to reintegrate into society immediately, despite what backlash they faced for leaving their order. But I digress....

I dare say most of the women I shared ashram space with were endeared to M in a sexual way, which deviates (probably) from the brothers. We did considered ourselves ''married'' to M. Yet there is the confusion about M being father, mother, brother, friend. What friend abuses power in a sexual way???? No friend. Just someone, M, who likes to abuse power for his own pleasure and purposes.

Shame on him for using his followers as sexual toys, to be thrown away, as a two year old would, without the ability to consider anyone else's feelings. What a creep!

Cynthia

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Date: Sun, Dec 31, 2000 at 18:55:06 (GMT)
From: Rick
Email: None
To: Cynthia
Subject: Hi Cynthia
Message:
Maybe someday we'll hear from some of the women who maharaji seduced. It would be interesting to hear what they have to say.

There have been so many final nails in the coffin of my 'faith' in maharaji. He could have just turned out to be human but he also turned out to be an asshole.

I noticed you said you didn't regret being brought up in a strict Catholic tradition. I'm curious why you said that.

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Date: Sun, Dec 31, 2000 at 19:53:19 (GMT)
From: Cynthia
Email: None
To: Rick
Subject: Hi Rick.....
Message:
While I haven't practiced any religion since age 17, (except, of course, my time in the cult) there are some fond memories and experiences of being brought up Catholic.

I was talking to my mother about them the other day...she is pretty much homebound these days after a lifetime of a devote Catholic...she became a Eurcharistic (sp?) minister, a member of the Franciscan order, etc.

I told my mother I missed the comforting smell of the frankinsence. Some of the rituals, (not confession!!) gave me comfort; the Polish choirs are incredible; these don't have anything to do with my beliefs now. I only remember the comforting aspects. Ma understood.

Nothing major, just sensory memories.

Love,
Cynthia

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Date: Sun, Dec 31, 2000 at 23:17:11 (GMT)
From: Rick
Email: None
To: Cynthia
Subject: oh...
Message:
that makes sense. Being a yid, I only know what I've seen in the movies. Most people I meet who were brought up Catholic refer to themselves as 'recovering Catholics', so I was curious. Thanks.
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Date: Sun, Dec 31, 2000 at 19:58:00 (GMT)
From: Selene
Email: None
To: Cynthia
Subject: know what you mean Cynthia
Message:
And thanks for reminding me what the incense is called, I really like it.
This fall when my mom died I actually WAS comforted by the Catholic mass, (in spite of my fear that a lightening bolt was gonna come down and hit me for having the nerve to step foot in a catholic church and receive communion w/o confession)
it was very tasteful and of course gothically ritualistic and I think people need some kind of ritual or commemoration at a time like that.
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Date: Sun, Dec 31, 2000 at 23:23:28 (GMT)
From: Rick
Email: None
To: Selene
Subject: know what you mean Cynthia
Message:
...(in spite of my fear that a lightening bolt was gonna come down and hit me for having the nerve to step foot in a catholic church and receive communion w/o confession)

Hello Selene,
The lightening bolt wouldn't be for receiving communion w/o cofession but for what you had to confess...

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Date: Mon, Jan 01, 2001 at 00:07:59 (GMT)
From: Selene
Email: None
To: Rick
Subject: actually I expected the lightening
Message:
As soon as I walked in the doors.
As for the sins well, sigh, that was then and this is now.
My most immediate impulse and need is to get a TV guide from the local Circle Jerk and see what insipid New Year's shows are on tonight.
Pretty wild huh?
Best wishes for the New Year Rick.
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Date: Sun, Dec 31, 2000 at 16:07:33 (GMT)
From: Cynthia
Email: None
To: Susan
Subject: A poll for all ex premies ( and premies too)
Message:
Hi Susan,

In the height of my gopism, ashram ''sister'' devotee years, I would have, as bill aptly said it below: like an innocent child, submit.

I would have done it, but I would have dissociated during it, because it would be, (keeping in mind, I am a devotee) an abuse of power and control over me, and I know now, it would have life damaging consequences for me.

I do agree with Sir Dave, this poll really applies to women because it appears that M did only target premie sisters; I believe he did it because he was fully aware of his power over premies. That word, ''sister'' plus the lines ''you are my mother, you are my father, you are my brother, you are my friend,'' also add into this scenario the element of incest. I looked at M as my father and mother. Truly yucky, ick!!!

A whole fucked up situation, it would have been. Sooo glad, though blonde, I was much too tall for his taste I'm sure. Phew!

Love,
Cynthia

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Date: Sun, Dec 31, 2000 at 15:55:22 (GMT)
From: shp
Email: None
To: Susan
Subject: Moi?
Message:
Q: How do you tell your Lord no?
A: Lord No!
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Date: Sun, Dec 31, 2000 at 15:41:38 (GMT)
From: Sir Dave
Email: None
To: Susan
Subject: A poll for all ex premies ( and premies too)
Message:
It's not an easy subject to poll because it only really applies to females and people see M differently now than in the seventies and eighties.

A similar thing happened with Sai Baba, only to young men and they've described their total confusion as the man they saw as God was suddenly transformed into a lecher. It was a difficult thing to take in especially as the transformation from God to lecher took only a few minutes.

Sai Baba also had many boy lovers and then discarded them to their own confusion, much the same as Maharaji did with the women. Personally, I've nothing against M having sex with anybody if they were both freely up for it but under those conditions of Lord and devotee, it's hardly a real thing. The bad thing is the way he just discarded the girls afterwards. They must have been very confused and in turmoil.

He didn't even turn them into prostitutes by paying them. Just saw them as expendable objects. Of course, Maharaji used to give heavy satsang about celebacy and the like and his obvious hypocritical behaviour is damning in itself.

I'm amazed he still has a following.

.. Dave

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Date: Sun, Dec 31, 2000 at 18:58:39 (GMT)
From: Selene
Email: None
To: Sir Dave
Subject: hi dave I answered you on Ag about this
Message:
But feel like repeating it here.
I think you are right on about the hypocrisy being the worst of it, even worse than the sex. The endless bullshit he told us about he we were not supposed to enjoy the same things he was being a glutton about.
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Date: Sun, Dec 31, 2000 at 01:36:26 (GMT)
From: Salam
Email: None
To: Susan
Subject: grab him by the balls and squeez hard
Message:
untill he sees light, then turn him around, shove my foot up his ass and kick the crap out of him
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Date: Sun, Dec 31, 2000 at 00:32:45 (GMT)
From: Deputy Dog
Email: None
To: Susan
Subject: Here's what I'd say Susan
Message:
Here's what I'd say Susan, 'No thanks, I'm not interested.'
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Date: Mon, Jan 01, 2001 at 02:21:55 (GMT)
From: Deputy Dog
Email: None
To: Susan
Subject: Here's more of what I'd say Susan
Message:
Imagine yourself at the height of your belief in and devotion to Guru Maharaj Ji ( or Maharaji if you are a more recnt ex) . You are at a festival and just went through darshan. You are blissed out. You are in a reverie of guru ecstacy. Gardenia perfume fills the air.

Michael Dettmers, yes, THE Michael Dettmers, approaches you privately. Fianlly, the recogntion you deserve for your devotion.

Michael says your Guru Maharaj Ji wants to meet with you privately. You are to meet him at the Four Seasons Hotel at 11:00 pm, the Presidential suite, tonight. You are to tell no one you are coming, that is Maharaj Ji's agya. You wonder why Michael tells you to where the same suit, or dress, you wore in the Darshan line today.

You arrive, are escorted into the inner sanctum of the hotel suite.

Maharaj Ji tells you how he feels a strong connection to you, how he knows how much devotion you have, he tells you he wants to take your trust and devotion to a new level.....

at some point, you realize you are there because he wants to have sex with you.

You are a man, or you are a woman. What do you do? If you decide to leave....what do you say to Him?

How do you tell your 'Lord' no? What do you say to Him? Susan how about these:

1. Not thanks, I'm not interested. (I've used this already)
2. I feel dizzy, and can't believe you're asking me this.
3. Wow, this is not what I expected at all. I'm really disappointed.
4. I can't believe you are asking me this! What does it have to do with Knowledge?
5. You have got to be kidding! What a sense of humour.
6. I'd rather be meditating.
7. I think I'm going to be sick!
and my personal favourite
8. Stand back I think I'm going to HURL!!!!

When you have as many daughters as I do, you've got to train them well. This is how I've taught my daughters to deal with unwanted advances.

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Date: Mon, Jan 01, 2001 at 03:01:46 (GMT)
From: Susan
Email: None
To: Deputy Dog
Subject: Here's more of what I'd say Susan
Message:
LOL those are funny

but still, seriously, I think a person would already have to be an ex or well on the way to ex dom to say them.

I hope someone DID hurl on him though!

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Date: Sun, Dec 31, 2000 at 03:50:37 (GMT)
From: Oliver
Email: Bitchonheat@doghouse.com
To: Deputy Dog
Subject: BowfuckingWow. (NT)
Message:
Bow wow.
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Date: Sun, Dec 31, 2000 at 00:29:22 (GMT)
From: bill
Email: None
To: Susan
Subject: like an innocent child, you submit.-nt
Message:
SDDG
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Date: Sat, Dec 30, 2000 at 23:40:07 (GMT)
From: Aussi Ji(hetero bloke)
Email: None
To: Susan
Subject: A poll for all ex premies ( and premies too)
Message:
With that scenario I don't think many,if any of us would've said no,after all we were BELIEVERS and we have seen with other cults what lenghts cultists will go to in order to follow the WAY.However having said that in my new ex cult format the thought makes me want to puke.I would also have doubts if he would've found me attractive anyways.But then again as i look in the mirror my arse does look kinda cute!.Lol.
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Date: Sun, Dec 31, 2000 at 20:32:27 (GMT)
From: Lesley
Email: None
To: Aussi Ji(hetero bloke)
Subject: aussie blokes, thanks for the giggle
Message:
One offers the Lord a new light technique and the other is checking out how cute his butt is! lol
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Date: Sun, Dec 31, 2000 at 02:14:07 (GMT)
From: Robyn
Email: None
To: Aussi Ji(hetero bloke)
Subject: A poll for all ex premies ( and premies too)
Message:
Dear Aussi Ji/aka hetero bloke, :)
Cute ass not withstanding :) I really don't think I would have let him 'have his way with me' and feel that it was a good thing. If it happened it would have felt like rape, I am sure of that! I was not that deluded, to be able to white wash the situation if that indeed had happended to me.
Robyn
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Date: Sun, Dec 31, 2000 at 04:08:18 (GMT)
From: Aussi Ji
Email: None
To: Robyn
Subject: A poll for all ex premies ( and premies too)
Message:
Hi Robyn,I am only saying that most of would've gone along with it because of the level of brainwashing that was in our heads.When I was waiting to receive K ,we were all asked one winters night after satsang whether we would be prepared to go and jump in the nearby surf and swim a couple of hundred yards out to sea.All of us in that room said an emphatic YES.That was the level of brainwashing.So with Nr big it would've been difficult to say no.Remember we weren't thinking straight at those times,especially after darsham.Of course I don't know you Robyn,you may be different.
Cheers Aussi Ji
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Date: Mon, Jan 01, 2001 at 14:37:46 (GMT)
From: Robyn
Email: None
To: Aussi Ji
Subject: A poll for all ex premies ( and premies too)
Message:
Dear Aussi,
I tried to reply the other day but couldn't so....
I luckily, somehow, was not asked if I'd die for m or whatever form that question could take. I have read about it before here though. I was in an area outside New York City and have always been suprised, since finding this forum, that others were asked such things and how I, living in a big city area missed it. I grew up Catholic with a violent mother which, at an early age, turned me against religion. What attracted me about the whole package of m and k was the meditation, that is what I heard about that got me interested, not m. I think if I had I would have run the other way. Once I was gradually more and more involved I think my Catholic upbringing made it easy for me to go along with the rituals, darshan, arti etc without giving them all my heart and soul. Thank god, looking back all these years later I realise that if I had been approached with the m is god part first I never would have gotten k but learning the techniques start my own 'spiritual' path (I even use that term hesitantly) through working on many aspects of myself. A kind of nature based, holistic view of me as part of the whole. A mixture of meditation, Native American respect for nature, a little Buddhism and more recently some other breathing/energy conscience things.
I never experienced any 'feelings' during darshan. I was always aware of the set up, of m up there for hours and not really being into it. Kind of like watching a movie that doesn't really draw you in and I sit there relating to how the actors are doing their jobs more then giving themselves to their craft, if that makes any sense to you and still I understand that I was a lucky one and that many didn't fare as well.
Love,
Robyn
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Date: Sun, Dec 31, 2000 at 04:13:54 (GMT)
From: Selene
Email: None
To: Aussi Ji and Robyn
Subject: is it because
Message:
you haven't been a premie for a long time Robyn?
sorry Robyn but I'm just speculating.
I do agree somewhat though I do not necessarily see it as forcible rape but coersion and abuse of power.
but honestly, as a premie as late as the 90's (before the end in 97) I think i just would have done it.
eeiiiwww
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Date: Mon, Jan 01, 2001 at 15:18:13 (GMT)
From: Robyn
Email: None
To: Selene
Subject: is it because
Message:
Dear Selene,
Hi and Happy New Year. Part of it is because I was a premie years ago but that is also why I would have dealt with it so differently, because of who and how I was back then just because I was so young. I didn't say I wouldn't have let him do it, at least I don't think I said that. I probably would have let him but it would have been a very bad experience somthing that if I had my 'voice' I would have said no too. I have my voice now, at least I think I do. :)
Love,
Robyn
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Date: Mon, Jan 01, 2001 at 16:24:34 (GMT)
From: Selene
Email: None
To: Robyn
Subject: I know what you mean
Message:
thankfully this is just speculation for us both!
It's not like I think it would have been a good experience :)
Happy new year
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Date: Sat, Dec 30, 2000 at 23:20:05 (GMT)
From: JHB
Email: None
To: Susan
Subject: A poll for all ex premies ( and premies too)
Message:
I honestly don't know. I can imagine myself running out, but I can also imagine myself rationalising the situation as a growth opportunity for me, as well as great honour.

Either way, it would have a massive abuse of the power Maharaji had over me.

John.

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Date: Sat, Dec 30, 2000 at 23:01:47 (GMT)
From: Male Hetero Ex
Email: None
To: Susan
Subject: No way. Even God. Now Kali or Green Tara... (nt)
Message:
x
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Date: Sat, Dec 30, 2000 at 23:08:52 (GMT)
From: Susan
Email: None
To: Male Hetero Ex
Subject: how, oh studley one, would you have told him no?
Message:
Details? Would you have simply run out of the room? Said 'fuck no you little prick'? Said, sorry, um , agya only can go so far? Seriously...how would you have let the Lard down?
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Date: Sat, Dec 30, 2000 at 22:57:27 (GMT)
From: Selene
Email: None
To: Susan
Subject: A poll for all ex premies ( and premies too)
Message:
Thanks Susan. I kinda went ballistic in the thread below, and you have expressed why I did.

My guess? She or me at some point in my premiedumb (not sure about the he's?) would go along with it and be completely weirded out and confused forever after but at the same time feel 'special'.
eesssshhh!!

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Date: Sat, Dec 30, 2000 at 23:06:42 (GMT)
From: Susan
Email: None
To: Selene
Subject: yep...
Message:
I don't think I would have said no, my only hope is I would have become so upset that he might not have wanted to go on with his plan. Sickeningly though, I thought about it some more:

if I had started crying, and he had decided to 'comfort' me.... I would guess I would have gone along with it.

I surely would have needed to be locked up after that though. I would not have been able to just move on. It would have devastated me.

If you read on Sir Dave's site the 'Nick CDanger third Eye' post there is a story of a woman who was treated this way my the brothers Rawat and then they gaslighted her and pretended it never happened. This woman did need to be 'locked up' afterward.

Extremely cruel behavior.

I can see though why some are not 'getting it' right away. After years out of the cult it is hard to remember what the 'rules' were and how we reacted. I don't think it is true insensitivity just applying the rules of the normal world to the insane world of the cult.

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Date: Sun, Dec 31, 2000 at 02:25:02 (GMT)
From: Robyn
Email: None
To: Susan
Subject: yep...
Message:
Hi Susan and Selene,
I also think that I am a much different person now then I was back then also. I know that now, well almost...that if someone tried to rape me today I would react very differently then I did then.
Interesting question Susan, I saw Selene's post on AG and so came to have a look. Thanks Selene.
Here's to hoping for good stuff for the new year!
Love,
Robyn
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Date: Sun, Dec 31, 2000 at 01:03:22 (GMT)
From: janet
Email: None
To: Susan
Subject: i know i would have taken it as i take all...
Message:
i would have let him play it out and find out where it was leading, including going along with undressing and getting underway. if i liked it i would have stayed with it. if i didnt like it i would have stopped the show and gotten into a real definite discussion of what and why. and he wouldnt have ben able to just dash out either, no one gets away from me! not till i;m done!sag lovers are nervous things. they can barely pay attention. they talk, and they're restless, and distractable, and can't stay focused. the ones i've known in bed usually never get to completing the act. we end up yakking about other things instead. we're more friends or pals than lovers.if he had called me, and we went thru with it, i wouldnt expect him to call me again. we would both have and know what we wanted, out of it.and you can bet i would have no compunctions about telling all about it, to anyone whenever i felt like t.
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Date: Sat, Dec 30, 2000 at 20:44:15 (GMT)
From: Deputy Dog
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: There is a lot of this going around
Message:
A friend of mine just sent me this URL:
www.swamishyam.com
where you can find various links describing the sexual improprieties of many “spiritual” leaders including: Swami Shyam, Satchitananda, Yukteswar, Sai Baba, Zen Master Rama, Amrit Desai, Sogyal Rinpoche, Gurumayi, Swami Bananarama and many, many more. So it seems that M is not alone.

One of my favourite parts was from a woman who, in an interview with the Free Press, said, 'I went to an apartment to see a highly esteemed lama and discuss religion. He opened the door without a shirt on and with a beer in his hand.”

Whoa! There is part of me that finds this quite funny. Maybe I need a little therapy.

Just for a moment, I would like to address all the self-righteous male ex-es who are vociferously criticising M. Be perfectly honest. If you were in a position where you could have sex with just about anyone you wanted, would you be able to ignore that power? Would you be able to resist, or would you give in after a while? How long could you last? Is this a sad commentary on human nature or a hard-wired genetic fact we should accept and deal with?

In any event, I’ve been telling my many daughters for years that men are basically hogs and to watch out for em. I guess I was right. And apparently no amount of meditation or spirituality is going to change them. Too bad!

A guru or spiritual master or even president for that matter, is in a particularly perilous position that requires an enormous amount of self-discipline. There is an old saying, “Power corrupts, and absolute power corrupts absolutely.”

Here is my favourite quote from the site,

I recommend never adopting the attitude toward one's spiritual teacher of seeing his or her every action as divine or noble. This may seem a little bit bold, but if one has a teacher who is not qualified, who is engaging in unsuitable or wrong behavior, then it is appropriate for the student to criticize that behavior.

- Dalai Lama

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Date: Tues, Jan 02, 2001 at 07:43:07 (GMT)
From: C.G.
Email: None
To: Deputy Dog
Subject: another great quote - post it on Elk
Message:
Thanks for the great quote from the D.Lama. Someone should try and post it on wit and wisdom!

Thanks again,

C.G.

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Date: Mon, Jan 01, 2001 at 12:48:49 (GMT)
From: Lord Acton
Email: None
To: Deputy Dog
Subject: Power tends to corrupt ...
Message:
... and absolute power corrupts absolutely.

It's only a tendency -- something an enlightened person can guard against, you see. But it's so often misquoted as if Acton believed it to be a brute fact, 'just one of those things'. Here's some more from him...

Liberty is not a means to a higher political end. It is itself the highest political end... liberty is the only object which benefits all alike, and provokes no sincere opposition... The danger is not that a particular class is unfit to to govern. Every class is unfit to govern... Power tends to corrupt, and absolute power corrupts absolutely.

I exhort you never to debase the moral currency or to lower the
standard of rectitude, but to try others by the final maxim that governs your own lives, and to suffer no man and no cause to escape the undying penalty which history has the power to inflict on wrong.

posted by JohnT

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Date: Tues, Jan 02, 2001 at 01:44:14 (GMT)
From: shp
Email: None
To: St. Paul
Subject: Another common misquote
Message:
Many think that the quote is

'Money is the root of all evil.'

Actually, St. Paul said:

'The love of money is the root of all evil.'

Two cents worth shp

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Date: Mon, Jan 01, 2001 at 04:57:09 (GMT)
From: shp
Email: None
To: Deputy Dog
Subject: There is a lot of this going around
Message:
There is a lot of this going around, so does that make it OK?

I know you empathize by your including the quote from the Dalai Lama, but all the rest came off like a litany of excuses for saying it ain't so bad.

Like my Mom used to say when I was a kid and I wanted to go along with the crowd:
'If some people were going to jump off a building, would you jump too?'
(I just KNOW I'm not the only one who's heard this one.)

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Date: Mon, Jan 01, 2001 at 23:54:59 (GMT)
From: Deputy Dog
Email: None
To: shp
Subject: shp - There is a lot of this going around
Message:
No it doesn't make it OK. It surprises me on one level, on another level, human beings are fallible and mess up, look at David in the Bible.

On the one level we are dealing with consenting adults (albeit one that was married), on another level I was expecting a little more restraint and class from M. His behaviour saddens me and I in no way want to be his apologist.

The purpose of my posting that URL was to show that other groups are also going through the same thing, loss of faith, accusations against poeple who seemed above reproach, shocking revelations. It's almost as if there something happening in our collective unconscious, the gestalt?

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Date: Tues, Jan 02, 2001 at 00:57:32 (GMT)
From: shp
Email: None
To: Deputy Dog
Subject: Dep - We are talking about 'the most powerful
Message:
incarnation to walk the planet', or was that a rumor that some crazy mahatma on a sugar rush started on a streetcorner in NYC in 1972 that Mahraji has been trying to disspell ever since?

That reminds me of O.J.'s oath to find the killer of his wife and Ron Goldman. For some reason, O.J. thinks that the killer is hiding out on a golf course somewhere in Florida, and he's been checking as many of them out as he can, but he's only human...

Are you telling me that the 'most powerful incarnation to walk the planet' can't maintain with regard to women? If not, then what chance is there for the rest of us, now or ever?


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Date: Sun, Dec 31, 2000 at 20:16:48 (GMT)
From: Nigel
Email: None
To: Deputy Dog
Subject: Whoah! Fuck off, Dep...
Message:
As a forty-something I teach nineteen-year-olds. Would some of them sleep with me were I to go looking..? - Possibly. Would it be a gross abuse of my position if I ever did? - Of course.

Somewhere between what you'd like to do and what you actually do lies this whole minefield called 'morality' - which applies to gurus too, if they have an ounce of decency...

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Date: Mon, Jan 01, 2001 at 04:42:03 (GMT)
From: shp
Email: None
To: Nigel
Subject: Speaking of morality, a favorite quote
Message:
Goes something like this:

'Real morality is doing the right thing even when no one is watching you.' -Stephen Gaskin

And even Stephen has recently been accused of messing with teenage girls on his Farm commune in the past. To this day he says some of his favorite hobbies are experimenting with touch, and flirting. He's in his 60's, married many years to a formidable woman who is regarded as a very smart and sought after expert on midwifery, and loved and respected by many thousands of people all over the world. He has received Right Livlihood Awards for his humanitarian efforts in creating hospice communities in the Tennessee woods for elderly and sick. Women who were contemplating abortion were offered to come to the Farm, have their kid there, leave, and come back whenever they thought they could handle taking care of their kid again, and the Farm would care for and raise the kid like their own....like the revolving basket in the wall of the old Buddhist temples.

I was kind of shocked to hear about him and the young girls, especially because I heard about him about the same time I heard about Maharaji's adventures. Kind of a rude awakening to the reality that two major teachers in my life had a thing for the ladies and did not curb their enthusiasm. I thought it was a virtue and the thing to do for one on the path of enlightenment.

If I remember correctly, Maharaji is the most powerful manifestation etc etc to walk the planet. Does this mean that even God cannot resist some action on the side?

Another quote, admittedly heresay, just came to mind. Maharaji and that little stocky blond guy with the glasses who used to hang out with him alot in Miami were walking around and the blond guy was eyeing the beautiful scantily-tropically clad ladies. Maharaji allegedly said something to him like:
'What are you looking at them for? They are all looking for me!'

T minus 16 minutes....

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Date: Sun, Dec 31, 2000 at 21:07:48 (GMT)
From: ham
Email: None
To: Nigel
Subject: And that's just teaching Nigel,
Message:
not the high priestess of the source of love with a direct channel to god, someone revered.

And just because other 'spiritual'leaders abuse like this does not excuse in the slightest, dog is being the sleasiest ever on this one, creepy.

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Date: Mon, Jan 01, 2001 at 01:55:35 (GMT)
From: Deputy Dog
Email: None
To: ham and Nigel
Subject: Nigel and ham, have you ever considered . . .
Message:
a remedial course in reading?

Please read my post again before you go shooting your mouths off, particularly the quote from the Dalai Lama.

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Date: Mon, Jan 01, 2001 at 14:04:27 (GMT)
From: hamzen
Email: None
To: Deputy Dog
Subject: Yeah but your quote wasn't just d Lama .
Message:
The quote from the dalai lama I have no problem with, but as for guys being genetically incapable of keeping their hands off is hogwash for two reasons. As Nigel says there is personal discipline, secondly there is a huge variation in males. Personally I've never been able to get into shagging for the sake of it, if for no other reason than the closer I am to the person the better the shag.
I also think it's an illusion that males are that much more into shagging than women.
Knowing a lot of younger women, some who are into going on the pull and some who aren't, ie across the spectrum like males, although I'd still say that males are more body oriented, the gap is closing, and I'm sure that that is social.

But this leaves out one crucial point. Knowledge.
This k is supposed to be a connection to the source of all, a direct hot line to god, and even if you don't see gm as god, you'd think all these years of being the connecting point would mean his priority points are slightly different than your average beer swilling saturday night shag male, and it isn't.
So if after all these years of him ridiculing everything else on this planet, because he's so aware, you get the drift.
And that still leaves out one key question. He didn't just shag em, but shagged and left 'em to get on with the damage. So obviously the dalai lama is more focused than gm. What does that say about the specialness of gm and k. Pretty much everything.

He had a bunch of radha/sant mat techniques, and that's it, full stop, ohh and an ability to con people he was the only one with the juju.

Nuff said.

Althougfh a better post than some of your very shallow ones in the past, this one still looks shallow to me, and a bit of a wind up because it's revisionist.

So what's the value of gm now for you dep?
Bet you're still going.

And we know you're still in a cult cause you STILL are frightened to post your real name.

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Date: Mon, Jan 01, 2001 at 23:12:41 (GMT)
From: Deputy Dog
Email: None
To: hamzen
Subject: hamzen here is my response
Message:
. . as for guys being genetically incapable of keeping their hands off is hogwash for two reasons. As Nigel says there is personal discipline, secondly there is a huge variation in males. Personally I've never been able to get into shagging for the sake of it, if for no other reason than the closer I am to the person the better the shag.

How many men accuse women of sexual harassment? Most men would be happy to be sexually harassed by a woman. And what about that boy who had his penis severed in a botched circumscision and his parents tried to raise him as a girl. It didn't work. Men are genetically inclined but not incapable.

I also think it's an illusion that males are that much more into shagging than women. Knowing a lot of younger women, some who are into going on the pull and some who aren't, ie across the spectrum like males, although I'd still say that males are more body oriented, the gap is closing, and I'm sure that that is social.

I say it's probably genetic, that plus the fact that women get pregnant and usually feel sick for a few months, and then have a baby to raise. Men can afford to be a lot more foot-loose and fancy free.

But this leaves out one crucial point. Knowledge. This k is supposed to be a connection to the source of all, a direct hot line to god, and even if you don't see gm as god, you'd think all these years of being the connecting point would mean his priority points are slightly different than your average beer swilling saturday night shag male, and it isn't.

Ya got me there. Apparently your average beer swilling Saturday night shag male is closer to God than we think.

And that still leaves out one key question. He didn't just shag em, but shagged and left 'em to get on with the damage. What does that say about the specialness of gm and k? Pretty much everything.

Does seem kind of impolite doesn't it.

He had a bunch of radha/sant mat techniques, and that's it, full stop, ohh and an ability to con people he was the only one with the juju. Nuff said.

People can leave any time they want.

Although a better post than some of your very shallow ones in the past, this one still looks shallow to me, and a bit of a wind up because it's revisionist.

I am in no way whatsoever a Maharaji apologist.

So what's the value of gm now for you dep? Bet you're still going.

I still value Knowledge and always will. It's the best thing I've ever stumbled across.

And we know you're still in a cult cause you STILL are frightened to post your real name.

Ask Roger eDrek why he doesn't want to post his real name. It's the same for me.

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Date: Tues, Jan 02, 2001 at 14:35:07 (GMT)
From: hamzen
Email: None
To: Deputy Dog
Subject: That's better dog, but you're still hard work
Message:
But it's much more complicated than you make out, genetically yeah I'd agree, but genetics is only part of the picture, and even genetically you're partially innaccurate. When women want to get pregnant there is a genetic drive to get sperm from the fittest male, but partner someone who is going to be a good father, which quite often doesn't match.
But to show the social factors, I've met a lot of younger women in the last few years who can drink me under the table, are quite happy to screw around, and pull someone different on a weekly basis. It's a generational/social thing.

And that still leaves out one key question. He didn't just shag em, but shagged and left 'em to get on with the damage. What does that say about the specialness of gm and k? Pretty much everything.
Does seem kind of impolite doesn't it.
He had a bunch of radha/sant mat techniques, and that's it, full stop, ohh and an ability to con people he was the only one with the juju. Nuff said.
People can leave any time they want.

One off dd it's a lot more than impolite, you know as well as I that he has played on the perfect master shit for years, you also know that being dumped like that, and realizing you were just a fuck is gonna cause a lot of damage, not least of which is that his behaviour has driven some women right away from k, let alone gm. So he's obviously quite happy to put his cock before this so called 'perfect knowledge'.

So what's the value of gm now for you dep? Bet you're still going.
I still value Knowledge and always will. It's the best thing I've ever stumbled across.
That's not what I asked you, loads of people here still practice, I left because he so patently didn't care about spreading k, which was crucial for me. No, gm I'm asking about.

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Date: Tues, Jan 02, 2001 at 14:42:14 (GMT)
From: ham
Email: None
To: hamzen
Subject: Oh and ps
Message:
Don't know drek's reasons for not posting, assume it's to do with friends still in, people he knows?

But if it is, which is the main reason people stay anonymous here, why would that be, wouldn't be anything to do with it not being acceptable for you to be here, social blacklisting etc would it, ie cult thinking would it?

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Date: Sun, Dec 31, 2000 at 01:07:43 (GMT)
From: janet
Email: None
To: all
Subject: lets be sure we put our man up there too
Message:
if they don't already have him there. just lift the entries off the forum.
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Date: Sat, Dec 30, 2000 at 23:51:07 (GMT)
From: Bazza
Email: None
To: Deputy Dog
Subject: Deputy Dog, Owl...what is this, a freakin' zoo? nt
Message:
woof woof, hoot hoot.
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Date: Mon, Jan 01, 2001 at 04:45:58 (GMT)
From: shp
Email: None
To: Bazza
Subject: wazzzzzzzza, bazzzzzzzzzza?! (nt)
Message:
wazza bazza?
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Date: Sun, Dec 31, 2000 at 02:36:06 (GMT)
From: Owl
Email: None
To: Bazza
Subject: Bazza says, '...what is this, a freakin' zoo? ...'
Message:
[My 1st had on the subject line..(nt), it should not have there.]
.................................................................

You, {{{ Bazza}}} says:

'Deputy Dog, Owl...what is this, a freakin' zoo? nt'


*******************************************************
*******************************************************


I say:

Hmmmm? ....... You say:, 'Deputy Dog, Owl...what is this, a freakin' zoo? nt.......'

Well, your text, your words, your language, your attitude, 'what is this, a freakin' zoo?', speaks loud and clear of your, (Bazza), bizarre and condemnatory attitude toward me and or the inclusion of myself as a participant on this Site. This might be considered colorful language you use in a bar or with your pals, (But here?), this sort of broad stroke painting of a person or persons couched in a derogatory description, has been shown to be done by those that can not put forth a reasoned and logical argument to a person or group so they couch that person or that group in a condemnatory and derogatory fashion like you did, and like Hitler did with the Jews. It can start out in such a small and seemingly not very obnoxious way and then as it picks up speed as it goes down that slippery slope it gets out of hand.

Let us not go down too that level?

Let us see if we can be open to ideas, thoughts, and opinions, and if we disagree with those ideas, thoughts, or opinions, then we address them, and not the label, the group, the penname, or nickname.

Happy new Millennium

(lol)


Owl

.

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Date: Mon, Jan 01, 2001 at 04:50:41 (GMT)
From: shp
Email: None
To: Owl
Subject: Hey Owl, gettin' a bit testy on New Year's Eve...
Message:
I think you are reading a bit much into the subtext, my ruffled feathered friend. Roll back up the swastika banners and the petitions, you just stepped off the deep end. Just paddle back on over to a ladder and climb on up and have a toast to the New
Year!
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Date: Mon, Jan 01, 2001 at 10:52:27 (GMT)
From: Owl
Email: None
To: shp
Subject: Hey shp, (you say), 'gettin' a bit testy..........
Message:
(lol)

You have stepped into, this, it was not address to you, so if anyone is at fault for presuming to understand subtext or not, it is you.

(lol)

And it is you who threw out condescending remarks, (my ruffled feathered friend), from a place of ignorance on this matter, as again I try to make it clear to you that you are coming into a conversation that has span a number of Posts and for you to respond, and in the way you have responded, only points out that you are perhaps a pal of his, or just on the same, mind-link, (lol), yes, your concocted, manipulation of stuff, like, 'Roll back up the swastika banners and the petitions', just goes to show your biased intentions.........

So you can take that stuff, that you are trying to peddle and peddle it to your pals, it will not FLY with ME, (lol), because it is nothing but an illusion that you have concocted from your interpretation of a part of a conversation not directed to you, and yet you do so for personal reasons for yourself and or your pals or pal.....................


(lol)

Owl

.

.

Toast!

.

(lol)

.

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Date: Mon, Jan 01, 2001 at 18:35:51 (GMT)
From: shp
Email: None
To: Owl
Subject: Reply to the Owl...who? The Owl...who? The Owl..
Message:
...so they couch that person or that group in a condemnatory and
derogatory fashion like you did, and like Hitler did with the Jews.' -Owl

Hey Owl,

This comment of yours above is what inclined me to advise you to roll back up your swastika banners. Invoking Hitler is pretty heavy stuff, and lots of folks shift into that gear to jack up the ante and sound like they are on the side of right, when actually they are stoking the flames of hatred by even referring to that rat bastard. Your post was like cyber-road-rage over a verbal fender bender.

I did interject, and I am not sorry for it. Folks interject into dialogs I am having sometimes and if it's relevant I respect it.
If not, I say so. I think my interjection was relevant and appropriate. This is a Forum, by the way, not a bar a public bathroom, or a meeting hall for hatemongers.

Far as I'm concerned, Bazza noticed that alot of animal names were cropping up and made a humorous comment about it. (Remember humor? Great stuff.m Laughing at oneself is a sign of great maturity and consciousness.) I don't understand why there are any anonymous names here at all, animal or otherwise, but I must respect where people are at, and not let something minor like that get in the way of the conversation.

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Date: Mon, Jan 01, 2001 at 15:20:02 (GMT)
From: JohnT
Email: None
To: Owl
Subject: Owl = NSoL ???
Message:
So who are you, anyway?

I don't mean to ask for your name (mine's John Tucker, btw), just a little about yourself.

Like, for example, how did you find your way here? how long you been Out of the cult? how long were you In? Y'know, just a bit of chit-chat.

JohnT

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Date: Mon, Jan 01, 2001 at 20:10:51 (GMT)
From: bazza
Email: None
To: JohnT/Owl
Subject: Don't hold your breath John
Message:
This creep isnt about to give anything away of him/herself.

And yes I agree, he/she has posted as 'NSoL, or No Statute of Limitations.'

Also as 'Lol' and 'youdiditagain'

And that's without looking back through the archives, which Id do if I could be arsed.

So how about it 'owlnostatuteoflimitationslolyoudiditagain' anything you'd like to share with the group about who you are and what maharaji is/was in your life, when you got knowledge, when/why you left, how you felt, why you post here, what you'd like to see happen, how your relationships with friends/family/spouse/kids/premies was affected by your involvement and subsequent leaving of the cult - you have left the cult, haven't you?

There's so much more you can contribute to the general flow here, all it takes is a willingness to be a bit more open. Instead you seem to focus in on what people say to you, reitierate it, twist it, stick 'lol' after everything..I mean what are you, twelve years old or something?

The problem is you see, that most Exs, even if they use a made-up name, do actually give enough out about themselves to make it seem like your talking to a real person, doesnt have to be 'name, rank and serial number', just snippets about their life, experience in the cult, feelings stuff like that. Shit, even Catweasel's been opening up a bit and I think Id enjoy sitting down and having a cup of tea with him and a natter.

Havent you noticed its not just me now? The more tripe you post here with your funky 'lols', parantheses, brackets, slashes and tiresome smart-alec comments, the more reaction you'll get, and this from people who supposedly you agree with over the basic premise of this forum.

Are you looking to contribute in a real way or just need an audience for what you see as being your superior intellect at work? You probably are a lot smarter than me, Im just a thicko I'll admit, but this isnt a pissing contest, its a forum where thickos like me can be helped to extricate themselves from the cult of maharaji by reading peoples experiences and being able to relate to them. In order for someone to relate to your experience, they have to recognize also some similarities in lifestyle, personality, time spent in the cult etc etc. So far you've given nothing out to make that happen. Course you dont have to, sure, but wouldnt you like to help others find their way out of the cult, maybe premie friends of yours? Assuming like I said you are out of the cult, which Im beginning to wonder about.

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Date: Sun, Dec 31, 2000 at 03:00:34 (GMT)
From: Selene
Email: None
To: Owl
Subject: this place is a bar
Message:
It really is sometimes. So what?

What it is not is: it is Not like a zombie video event
or a censored EV site. The Dog's post was obnoxious.
Why not address that?
He says HE wouldn't say yes yet he ---'s M's ---- every time he posts.
oooooppppssss.....
Selene, --- put in for the sensitive owl ears

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Date: Mon, Jan 01, 2001 at 00:53:04 (GMT)
From: Owl
Email: None
To: Selene
Subject: this place is a bar , (What ever you want it to be
Message:
Make of Life what you will......................


I addressed that that was being pointedly addressed to me.


I believe there are a number of young persons, the sons and daughters of Premies as well as X-types, that are now coming to this SITE to find information on that Guru Maharaj Ji, that (M) guy from India, that has been so much a part of their lives and that they may now be thinking about getting this thing called Knowledge that he is talking about, and I hope they come away from this SITE with an understanding that (M) is a LIAR and a charlatan.


Happy New Year

Owl

.

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Date: Mon, Jan 01, 2001 at 00:59:54 (GMT)
From: Selene
Email: None
To: Owl
Subject: well i guess you told me and no I do NOT
Message:
try to make my life into a bar scenario .
yeah happy new year to you too.
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Date: Sun, Dec 31, 2000 at 02:29:24 (GMT)
From: Owl
Email: None
To: Bazza
Subject: Bazza says: '..what is this, a freakin' zoo? nt..'
Message:
You, {{{ Bazza}}} says:

'Deputy Dog, Owl...what is this, a freakin' zoo? nt'


*******************************************************
*******************************************************


I say:

Hmmmm? ....... You say:, 'Deputy Dog, Owl...what is this, a freakin' zoo? nt.......'

Well, your text, your words, your language, your attitude, 'what is this, a freakin' zoo?', speaks loud and clear of your, (Bazza), bizarre and condemnatory attitude toward me and or the inclusion of myself as a participant on this Site. This might be considered colorful language you use in a bar or with your pals, (But here?), this sort of broad stroke painting of a person or persons couched in a derogatory description, has been shown to be done by those that can not put forth a reasoned and logical argument to a person or group so they couch that person or that group in a condemnatory and derogatory fashion like you did, and like Hitler did with the Jews. It can start out in such a small and seemingly not very obnoxious way and then as it picks up speed as it goes down that slippery slope it gets out of hand.

Let us not go down too that level?

Let us see if we can be open to ideas, thoughts, and opinions, and if we disagree with those ideas, thoughts, or opinions, then we address them, and not the label, the group, the penname, or nickname.

Happy new Millennium

(lol)


Owl

.

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Date: Sun, Dec 31, 2000 at 03:19:00 (GMT)
From: Bazza
Email: None
To: Owl
Subject: You just don't get it
Message:
your....bizarre and condemnatory attitude toward me and or the inclusion of myself as a participant on this Site

See right now, to me you don't exist. If I can't put a name to the pseuodonym, or a face to the name, or talk to you on the telephone, or know somebody who knows you or in some other fashion visualize you as a living breathing person, then you are simply an anonymous poster with an attitude.

If you're not happy with that, there's a simple solution, isn't there? Make yourself real. Give your name and perhaps a few names of people who know you. Then it becomes different. You become a real person, a human being, and I'll be happy to converse with you as such. I email a lot of people here, and also talk on the telephone, hopefully soon I'll get to meet some in person. I've made new friends, and get a lot more out of my involvement becuause of it. It's R E A L. Why don't you try it, if you really, sincerely, genuinely are an EX premie? To be honest, I get strange impressions when I read your posts, like something isnt quite kosher. Don't know what it is, sort of a built-in radar, an undercurrent of insincerity, camouflaged by pompous indignation (like Hitler and the Jews? PUllease!) and quasi-intellectual superiority (those that can not put forth a reasoned and logical argument ).

Litmus test: Do you read and re-read your posts after you've put them on the site? Do you chuckle at your own acerbic wit and pride yourself in having trounced another thicko like me? Think about it.

I'd be VERY interested to see how your writing style and content changes once you are known to the rest of us and the entire lurking premie and Elan Vital population. Puts quite a different edge on it, you should try it. Right now, you can safely type away your arrogant, cocky little diatribes about me or anybody else, parrotting things we've said in your unique typographical fashion {{[[YOU SAY>>>}}]] LOL LOL and all that bollocks, but I seriously doubt you would have so much to say for yourself under your real name.

Hey, prove me wrong if you like, but I'm pretty sure I've hit the nail on the head. What are you afraid of? Are you afraid of giving your name? Some people are, for good reasons - what's yours?

Let us see if we can be open to ideas, thoughts, and opinions, and if we disagree with those ideas, thoughts, or opinions, then we address them, and not the label, the group, the penname, or nickname

If you find the courage to stand behind your ideas, thoughts and opinions, and are prepared to state them knowing that perhaps every single premie, instructor, usher and event security person who knows you has read them also, THEN I'll be more than happy to entertain a civilised discussion with you, because THEN we'll be on a level playing field because that is exactly my situation.

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Date: Mon, Jan 01, 2001 at 00:20:14 (GMT)
From: Owl
Email: None
To: Bazza
Subject: You just don't get it, ..(Thou protest too much..)
Message:
lol

.
*****************************************************

You say, 'See right now, to me you don't exist.'

*****************************************************
.


You say that, every single premie, instructor, usher and event security person who knows you, knows that you are this character here on this Site and that that is exactly your situation or some such rubbish as that, that is not the point, yet it is in your head.

(lol).....


As I see it you like things in neat little boxes that you do not have to give much thought. (lol) Well, so be it, if that is the kind of creature you choose to be.

Do not respond to me, or refer to me, if I don't exist too you. (lol) I would have to say you are a liar though if you do respond, but do not necessarily expect a returned response from me, as I do not..........., (What is that saying do not cast pearls before swine. Something about not wasting time on someone who is not worth it?) (lol) ....... whish to continue a conversation with one that as a matter of fact shows themselves to be a liar.

Also you are the one that has a LITMUS TEST, (LOL)....

..........................
You say:
Litmus test: Do you read and re-read your posts after you've put them on the site? Do you chuckle at your own acerbic wit and pride yourself in having trounced another thicko like me? Think about it.
..........................

(lol) No I just start babbling away like you, and do not think about, read, or even, GOD FORBID, reread anything, (lol), NOT!

So go ahead and do your babbling, non-thinking, non-reading, and GOD FORBID, non-re-reading......

(lol)


Again, remember do not respond as you have put forth your mindset above, unless you wish to REALLY (REAL) REALLY, (lol), be shown by your actions again to be a liar as well as a, non- so on and so on and so on.....

(lol)

Owl

.

So, about YOU, I do not give a, HOOT!

.

(lol)

.

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Date: Mon, Jan 01, 2001 at 03:09:10 (GMT)
From: Bazza
Email: None
To: Owl
Subject: You just proved my point
Message:
Don't call me a liar you fucking spineless coward. Get real.
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Date: Mon, Jan 01, 2001 at 09:43:53 (GMT)
From: Owl
Email: None
To: Bazza
Subject: Yes, (lol), you have just proved MY point, (lol)..
Message:
[Yes, (lol), you have just proved MY point, (lol)..]

.

*******************************************************
*******************************************************

As I said.......

Do not respond to me, or refer to me, if I don't exist to you. (lol) I would have to say you are a liar though if you do respond, but do not necessarily expect a returned response from me, as I do not..........., (What is that saying do not cast pearls before swine. Something about not wasting time on someone who is not worth it?) (lol) ....... whish to continue a conversation with one that as a matter of fact shows themselves to be a liar.

*******************************************************
*******************************************************

(lol)

.

Just for the absurdity and crassness that you represent, I give this, one more HOOT, (lol), to that, ........ that darkness that is being shown for what it is, nothing.


Owl

.

(lol)

.

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Date: Tues, Jan 02, 2001 at 19:13:41 (GMT)
From: shp
Email: None
To: Owl
Subject: When it comes to the Owl, LOL = loser on line
Message:
Thanks for the heads up. Some here may give in to anger at your asinine mumbo jumbo for a time, but then it will be OVER.

As Sir Winston Churchill once said (paraphrased) to a matronly busybody who noticed he was a bit tipsy one evening:

'Yes, Madam, I am a bit drunk. But in the morning I shall be sober and you will still be fat and ugly.'

So have your fun with those here who have not yet mastered their
emotions. But as you stand there in your skivvies in your bathroom brushing your teeth (if you have any) with nobody else around, take a good look at yourself and LOL at that, my fine feathered fiend.

This Owl shit is getting deep, and stranger than a Star Trek convention, although I never attended one, just heard about them and saw some parodies. Really Owl, who is putting you up to creating diversions and confusion, or is it just you au naturale?

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Date: Sat, Dec 30, 2000 at 21:24:20 (GMT)
From: Selene
Email: None
To: Deputy Dog
Subject: self-righteous female
Message:
Oh barf!!!!
so, he falls into a miasma of uncontrollable sexual impulses due to all the attractive females around him willing to do *anything* for an up close and personal encounter - with their master, their spiritual leader, their hope and prayers incarnate.
At that point, I'm thinking anyone who is claiming to be a spritual master would quit his vocation if he/she had any good in them. Or, would at least stop telling others about how this stuff isn't important. It goes way way beyond sex too. He told us to not care about retirement funds, career, family and friends. And I do think this is all related to how premies see life and are brainwashed. Fuck this shit. That post makes me sick.
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Date: Tues, Jan 02, 2001 at 21:21:47 (GMT)
From: shp
Email: None
To: Selene
Subject: I love it when you talk dirty while speaking truth
Message:
to power!
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Date: Sat, Dec 30, 2000 at 21:23:59 (GMT)
From: Bongo
Email: None
To: Deputy Dog
Subject: There is a lot of this going around
Message:
Charisma is a legitimate technique of teaching. But, as a teacher, if you buy into your own charisma as revealed to you in your student, ouch! You will drive a huge wedge between yourself and what you teach. You lose full access to your subject.
Your student, when they differentiate between you, the subject, and your charisma (which they eventually will), ends up estranged from all three. The only winner in the situation is that 'being' that loves separation, destruction, isolation etc.etc.
It aint a moral issue. It's a matter of consequences.
Love Bongo
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Date: Mon, Jan 01, 2001 at 05:11:34 (GMT)
From: shp
Email: None
To: Bongo
Subject: There is a lot of this going around
Message:
Rappity rap rap rap.

Charisma ain't the teaching, it's the thing - the attractive attribute that is bestowed on one who has the power to teach - that gets one's attention so that a teaching can take place if the charisma ain't used for personal self-aggrandizement.

Can I be any simpler and to the point?

Dare you take issue with the truth?

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Date: Sun, Dec 31, 2000 at 20:33:02 (GMT)
From: Steve Quint
Email: the_avenger55@hotmail.com
To: Bongo
Subject: Good Stuff - You've Got Me Wanting More
Message:
This strikes me as good, deep stuff. Can you elaborate on this or refer to a good book on the subject?

Thanks,

Steve

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Date: Sun, Dec 31, 2000 at 04:18:32 (GMT)
From: Stonor
Email: None
To: Bongo
Subject: 'Charisma is a legitimate way of teaching'?
Message:
'Charisma is a legitimate way of teaching'? How can 'charisma' be a way of teaching? I think you are confusing the use of 'charisma' by a false or lazy teacher with the love some students feel towards a legitimate and effective teacher which, I agree, has to be handled responsibly, delicately, and certainly not used to manipulate, abuse, or take advantage of another.
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Date: Sun, Dec 31, 2000 at 18:57:58 (GMT)
From: Scott T.
Email: None
To: Stonor
Subject: 'Charisma is a legitimate way of teaching'?
Message:
Stonor, Bongo:

Charisma is legitimacy, or at least one of three main classifications of legitimacy. In other words, it's a good deal more than a teaching technique. It confers the attribute of virtue, in a way that transcends all formal rules and traditions, for instance. Viewing it as a mere teaching technique could be like going duck hunting with a Cruise Missile.

--Scott

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Date: Sun, Dec 31, 2000 at 20:34:57 (GMT)
From: Steve Quint
Email: the_avenger55@hotmail.com
To: Scott T.
Subject: 'Charisma is a legitimate way of teaching'?
Message:
As I asked Bongo above, I'll ask you if you can elaborate or refer to a good book on the subject.

Thanks,

Steve

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Date: Mon, Jan 01, 2001 at 01:10:14 (GMT)
From: Scott T.
Email: None
To: Steve Quint
Subject: 'Charisma is a legitimate way of teaching'?
Message:
Steve:

Max Weber. He's a sociologist (one of the three founders of the discipline of sociology), so don't expect it to read like fiction. The primary work that deals with theories of legitimacy is The Theory of Social and Economic Organization. Quite a bit of material that's more relevant to the topic on the forum comes from The Sociology of Religion. Then there's the classic The Protestant Ethic and the Spirit of Capitalism which is almost lyrical, compared to other sociological works. For a contemporary take on some of Weber's theories check Colin Campbell. I think his book is something like 'The Hedonist Ethic and the Spirit of Modern Consumerism.' Finally, an English sociologist has written a great deal about 'charismatic societies' and what that might mean as a competing idea to our legal/rational society. His name is Ernest Gellner: Conditions of Liberty: Civil Society and its Rivals and Legitimation of Belief.

Happy reading,

--Scott

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Date: Sun, Dec 31, 2000 at 19:27:20 (GMT)
From: Stonor
Email: None
To: Scott T. and Bongo
Subject: 'Charisma is a legitimate way of teaching'?
Message:
Yes, not necessarily anything to do with teaching:

From Gage Canadian: charisma 1 Theology. a spiritual gift or grace giving a person the gift of prophesysing, healing, etc. 2 magnetic and compelling personal power, especially as attributed to leaders who gain the enthusiastic support of large numbers of people.

And Happy New Year to you both!

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Date: Sun, Dec 31, 2000 at 20:23:56 (GMT)
From: Steve Quint
Email: the_avenger55@hotmail.com
To: Stonor
Subject: 'Charisma is a legitimate way of teaching'?
Message:
With all due respect and speaking as a bit of a Canadian nationalist, I think you should be looking at other dictionaries. Gage is not exactly a generally accepted authoritative source. If you've been reading my posts you'll know that there are three good free on-line dictionaries, Encarta, American Heritage and Merriam-Webster's.

Steve

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Date: Sun, Dec 31, 2000 at 23:25:32 (GMT)
From: Stonor
Email: None
To: Steve Quint
Subject: What ???!!!! Exactly why NOT?!
Message:
Do you really think this? Do they have a different definition? If they do, post it. Personally, I find them limited and simplistic. The 24 Vol. OED on CD is the only upgrade in dictionaries I'm considering at the moment - but if I were to stop posting here there might not be much need for it! ;-)
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Date: Sun, Dec 31, 2000 at 17:13:33 (GMT)
From: Bongo
Email: None
To: Stonor
Subject: 'Charisma is a legitimate way of teaching'?
Message:
Stonor. I don't think I am confusing anything with anything. What we need here is a mutually acceptable understanding, at a very specific level, of the word 'charisma'. Frankly, it's New Years Eve, and I couldn't be arsed to embark on such a quest. So, thanks for the reply and love and hope to you for 2001.
Bongo.
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Date: Mon, Jan 01, 2001 at 05:21:30 (GMT)
From: shp
Email: None
To: Bongo
Subject: 'Charisma is NOT a way of teaching'!
Message:
Rappity rap rap rap.

Charisma ain't a way of teaching, it's the thing - the attractive attribute that is bestowed on one who has the power to teach - that gets one's attention so that a teaching can take place if the charisma ain't used for personal self-aggrandizement.

Can I be any simpler and to the point?
Dare you take issue with the truth?

2001 space odyssey right here right now.

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Date: Mon, Jan 01, 2001 at 17:26:56 (GMT)
From: Stonor
Email: None
To: shp
Subject: 'Charisma is NOT a way of teaching'!
Message:
Happy 2001 Sandy!

>Dare you take issue with the truth?

You're sounding unusually absolute there, Sandy. Is that a dare or a threat? ;-) (And did you swipe my ruler?!)

To me, 'gifts' and 'techniques', such as baraka/effectual grace, charisma, magnetic/powerful people, hypnosis and other forms of mind control, and good teaching of whatever subject, are not at all the same things, although some could well overlap at times. To really get to the 'truth' about the appropriate terminology in this context, would require further consideration of a number of facts and factors. This question is at the crux of many complex issues, and cannnot be so easily answered.

IMHO

Anna

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Date: Mon, Jan 01, 2001 at 05:39:28 (GMT)
From: shp
Email: None
To: shp
Subject: Charisma is like the scent and color of a flower
Message:
to a bee. The scent and color are guides to the pollen and the life cycle of the bee, the flower and the planet. And although the scent and color of the flower are beautiful, attractive and have very nice qualities in themselves, their primary purpose has nothing to do with scent and color. That is what Charisma is about.
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Date: Mon, Jan 01, 2001 at 18:13:24 (GMT)
From: Stonor
Email: None
To: shp
Subject: If only it were that simple - (nt)
Message:
If only it were that simple -
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Date: Mon, Jan 01, 2001 at 20:07:45 (GMT)
From: Bongo
Email: None
To: Stonor
Subject: The charisma thing
Message:
Good day! I regularly use charisma in my teaching. But you have to know when to stop.The dynamics are as follows.
Because I have transformed myself, I know myself. I also know that the boundaries between one person and another are quite thin.(fact) My knowlege of myself enables me to know the other person as well.I probably know the other person better than they know themselves.
So, and this is where the charisma comes in, I can consciously spread myself into the other person.(many ways, language, timing, gesture, subject choice, etc.) I can then engage my will, and all other things being equal, he/she will imagine that they are exerting their will. The gate is open for me to feel what ever I want in them. The boundaries between their desires and mine are blurred. If I want, they can know what I know.
It's fundamentally a vampiristic process. Abused, it crushes, robbing others of their freedom. Charisma is the first symptom of awakening individuality. The very first. I think it indicates a beginner/novice.
Obviously the essential factors in all this are 'self knowlege'
and 'self transformation'. Different people have differing degrees of access to their wills, so charisma can appear to be a mysterious and erratic process. But it isn't. Love fron Bongo.
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Date: Mon, Jan 01, 2001 at 22:57:24 (GMT)
From: Scott T.
Email: None
To: Bongo
Subject: The charisma thing
Message:
Bongo:

I've never heard anyone suggest that charisma has any connection to self-realization. Seems to me it's just as likely to flow from self-delusion. I think Mike Dettmers had the start of a reasonable theory of charisma (don't know where he got it, but was probably some German philosopher), and it comports reasonably well with Weber's insights. It basically starts with not seeing limitations. Eventually it matters a great deal whether this perception derives from overcoming limitations, or just ignoring them. Anyway, it's not that complicated... just difficult.

--Scott

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Date: Mon, Jan 01, 2001 at 20:29:22 (GMT)
From: Stonor
Email: None
To: Bongo
Subject: The charisma thing
Message:
New Year's Day greetings Bongo,

I see. So you believe that m has 'It', 'All of It', and you got 'It' and you can share 'It' through your will power. Odd that you don't mention love in this equation(?). By the way, neither your nor Steve nor shp have really dealt with the questions I raised, both about terminology and grey areas.

All the best to you.

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Date: Mon, Jan 01, 2001 at 20:50:16 (GMT)
From: Bongo
Email: None
To: Stonor
Subject: Oh Stonor!
Message:
What IS your problem?
No I don't believe any of the things you suggest. I reject your resume of my post totally. As for not mentioning love, why should I? Love is not charisma.
Your stated grasp of my last post does not inspire me to help you clarify your terminology and grey area problems. Why are you interested in charisma anyway?
love Bongo
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Date: Mon, Jan 01, 2001 at 18:43:30 (GMT)
From: shp
Email: None
To: Stonor
Subject: It is that simple. It's humans who complicate
Message:
matters.

Yep, bees and butterflies go for the bright sweet smelling stuff to keep the planet alive. The brightness and the sweetness are props, and good ones too, but not the actual purpose or mission of the bees and the butterflies.

We are the same, but we have the ability to really fuck things up. I believe more and more that real wisdom and intelligence is going along with Mother Nature's program and not trying to synthesize it or re-invent it.

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Date: Mon, Jan 01, 2001 at 23:09:55 (GMT)
From: Stonor
Email: None
To: shp
Subject: Then it's not that simple really, is it? (nt)
Message:
With the human factor added in.
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Date: Sat, Dec 30, 2000 at 21:12:00 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Deputy Dog
Subject: You missed the point, I know
Message:
Just for a moment, I would like to address all the self-righteous male ex-es who are vociferously criticising M. Be perfectly honest. If you were in a position where you could have sex with just about anyone you wanted, would you be able to ignore that power? Would you be able to resist, or would you give in after a while? How long could you last? Is this a sad commentary on human nature or a hard-wired genetic fact we should accept and deal with?

Of course that's all true, Dog. But all that proves is that no one should ever set themselves up as 'masters' period. Not unless they really are in somecategory beyond plain, ol' human being. If they're not (as we woun't be in such a situation), they shouldn't act like they are and garner trust and devotion no one deserves.

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Date: Sun, Dec 31, 2000 at 00:27:48 (GMT)
From: Deputy Dog
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Jim, I agree!
Message:
Of course they shouldn't act like they are in some category beyond plain, ol' human being . . . they shouldn't act like they are and garner trust and devotion no one deserves.

That was the point of my post! They shouldn't! But if we were in their position how long could we hold out? We aren't so above it all either. People in glass houses shouldn't throw stones.

I think you put Maharaji on too high a pedestal back in the 70s. He puts his pants on one leg at a time just like everybody else.

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Date: Sat, Dec 30, 2000 at 20:55:52 (GMT)
From: Oliver
Email: None
To: Deputy Dog
Subject: Bow fucking Bow. (NT)
Message:
nt
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Date: Sun, Dec 31, 2000 at 01:13:50 (GMT)
From: janet
Email: None
To: Oliver
Subject: you mean Bow fucking Wow. ok-she's a dog...
Message:
zxcvbn m,›
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