Forum V: Archive
Compiled: Sat, Jan 06, 2001 at 16:11:01 (GMT)
From: Dec 23, 2000 To: Jan 04, 2001 Page: 4 Of: 5


ham -:- Sir D/Search Engine for Forum Archives -:- Thurs, Dec 28, 2000 at 16:09:27 (GMT)
__ Sir Dave -:- Sir D/Search Engine for Forum Archives -:- Thurs, Dec 28, 2000 at 16:46:47 (GMT)
__ __ Des Perado. -:- Re: Sir D/Search Engine for Forum Archives -:- Thurs, Dec 28, 2000 at 19:05:44 (GMT)
__ __ __ Sir Dave -:- What does KCMG mean? (nt) -:- Thurs, Dec 28, 2000 at 23:36:37 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Oliver -:- Kindly Call Me God. :)) (nt) -:- Thurs, Dec 28, 2000 at 23:54:22 (GMT)
__ __ ham -:- Thanx for that sir d -:- Thurs, Dec 28, 2000 at 18:45:51 (GMT)
__ __ __ Sir Dave -:- Fast but not in real life -:- Thurs, Dec 28, 2000 at 23:34:43 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ ham -:- Straight out of a Damien Hirst show I reckon -:- Fri, Dec 29, 2000 at 00:58:55 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Sir Dave -:- Straight out of a Damien Hirst show I reckon -:- Fri, Dec 29, 2000 at 18:29:08 (GMT)
__ __ Jean-Michel -:- I suggest the link for the archive page -:- Thurs, Dec 28, 2000 at 17:53:15 (GMT)
__ __ __ Sir Dave -:- I suggest the link for the archive page -:- Thurs, Dec 28, 2000 at 23:25:42 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Stonor -:- I agree that the link for the search engine .... -:- Fri, Dec 29, 2000 at 16:05:21 (GMT)

Sir Dave -:- That's illogical, Captain -:- Thurs, Dec 28, 2000 at 04:52:50 (GMT)
__ janet of venice -:- That's illogical, Captain -:- Thurs, Dec 28, 2000 at 09:42:42 (GMT)
__ shp -:- Q and A with commentary -:- Thurs, Dec 28, 2000 at 05:34:43 (GMT)
__ __ Robyn -:- Q and A with commentary -:- Thurs, Dec 28, 2000 at 13:27:20 (GMT)
__ suchabanana -:- when you slip on banana skin, u can't blame banana -:- Thurs, Dec 28, 2000 at 05:07:08 (GMT)
__ __ hamzen -:- Unless it's a blonde seeking, TINY banana (nt) -:- Thurs, Dec 28, 2000 at 11:22:31 (GMT)

ulf -:- M talking about womens, -:- Wed, Dec 27, 2000 at 23:13:56 (GMT)
__ Ulf -:- M talking about womens, -:- Wed, Dec 27, 2000 at 23:41:49 (GMT)
__ Elan Vital -:- Explanations -:- Wed, Dec 27, 2000 at 23:31:16 (GMT)
__ __ Mickey Moss -:- Explanations -:- Thurs, Dec 28, 2000 at 09:09:56 (GMT)
__ __ la-ex -:- EV-think maha gets a chuckle from this? nt -:- Wed, Dec 27, 2000 at 23:42:16 (GMT)
__ __ __ Elan Vital -:- Maharaji's Sense of Humor -:- Thurs, Dec 28, 2000 at 00:07:52 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Jethro -:- Question to Elan Vital -:- Thurs, Dec 28, 2000 at 11:34:26 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Cynthia -:- Visions Website? -:- Thurs, Dec 28, 2000 at 01:04:42 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ suchie -:- He much like blondies. So, you in luck,I think (nt -:- Thurs, Dec 28, 2000 at 04:58:39 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Elan Vital -:- Visions Website? -:- Thurs, Dec 28, 2000 at 01:20:57 (GMT)

la-ex -:- looking for a book and magazine article.... -:- Wed, Dec 27, 2000 at 23:10:45 (GMT)
__ Bazza -:- Located book, working on mag -:- Thurs, Dec 28, 2000 at 00:57:57 (GMT)

Elan Vital -:- FAQs: Difficulties having a successful lifestyle -:- Wed, Dec 27, 2000 at 19:46:25 (GMT)
__ Jim -:- The whole set should be up, no? -:- Wed, Dec 27, 2000 at 19:52:33 (GMT)
__ __ la-ex -:- FAQ'some of the best we've seen-please keep!nt -:- Wed, Dec 27, 2000 at 22:53:46 (GMT)

Jim -:- Remember this ball and chain? -:- Wed, Dec 27, 2000 at 19:45:30 (GMT)
__ Joe -:- The hell of the duality of the Maharaji Cult -:- Thurs, Dec 28, 2000 at 01:30:51 (GMT)
__ __ cq -:- The hell of the duality of the Maharaji Cult -:- Sat, Dec 30, 2000 at 15:31:02 (GMT)
__ __ __ Stonor -:- 'The ability of fairy is to span the chasm ... -:- Sun, Dec 31, 2000 at 03:41:49 (GMT)
__ Salam -:- Cann't expect anything else from janiec -:- Thurs, Dec 28, 2000 at 00:06:11 (GMT)
__ la-ex -:- what's this about snot? Anth, a repsonse please! -:- Wed, Dec 27, 2000 at 22:58:33 (GMT)
__ __ Sir Dave -:- This is in the Bible -:- Thurs, Dec 28, 2000 at 02:25:12 (GMT)
__ __ __ la-ex -:- Sir D,thanks,now tell janice its ok(snotty face)nt -:- Thurs, Dec 28, 2000 at 03:19:44 (GMT)
__ ulf -:- Remember this ball and chain? -:- Wed, Dec 27, 2000 at 22:09:56 (GMT)
__ Steve Quint -:- I Can't Believe The Mad Elks Posted This -:- Wed, Dec 27, 2000 at 19:56:40 (GMT)
__ __ janet -:- now i get it--mad ELK disease. how tragic -:- Thurs, Dec 28, 2000 at 09:57:27 (GMT)
__ __ Roger eDrek -:- What kind of testimonial is this? -:- Wed, Dec 27, 2000 at 21:01:40 (GMT)
__ __ __ Rev John Hammond-Smyth -:- Psalm number 134 (a Psalm of David) -:- Thurs, Dec 28, 2000 at 03:09:03 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Mickey Moss -:- Psnotpnose -:- Thurs, Dec 28, 2000 at 16:47:41 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Roger eDrek -:- I'm not sure that I can post that in the House -:- Thurs, Dec 28, 2000 at 03:31:43 (GMT)

Oliver -:- Are you in a cult? -:- Wed, Dec 27, 2000 at 16:18:56 (GMT)
__ la-ex -:- Forum Adm.-can we put these questions on EPO?nt -:- Wed, Dec 27, 2000 at 23:39:23 (GMT)
__ Joe -:- Wow, really excellent... -:- Wed, Dec 27, 2000 at 19:59:11 (GMT)
__ Gregg -:- I knew the author when he was in a cult. -:- Wed, Dec 27, 2000 at 17:18:47 (GMT)
__ cq -:- Are you in a cult? -:- Wed, Dec 27, 2000 at 16:45:14 (GMT)
__ __ Oliver -:- Re: Are you in a cult? -:- Thurs, Dec 28, 2000 at 14:20:40 (GMT)
__ __ __ cq -:- Like I said, in a couple of days. -:- Thurs, Dec 28, 2000 at 16:29:17 (GMT)
__ __ Bazza -:- These are some great am-I-in-a-cult questions -:- Wed, Dec 27, 2000 at 16:58:05 (GMT)
__ __ __ Tim G -:- These are some great am-I-in-a-cult questions -:- Wed, Dec 27, 2000 at 17:28:25 (GMT)
__ __ __ cq -:- Sounds like he knows what he's talking about -:- Wed, Dec 27, 2000 at 17:25:01 (GMT)

jondon -:- tv exposure?? -:- Wed, Dec 27, 2000 at 15:48:43 (GMT)
__ Know It All -:- tv exposure?? -:- Wed, Dec 27, 2000 at 20:16:18 (GMT)

Nigel -:- Bad things happen - the Measure of a Master -:- Wed, Dec 27, 2000 at 15:04:37 (GMT)
__ suchabandanna -:- progressing to 'Hess'? Sieg heil, bolie shri...(nt -:- Sat, Dec 30, 2000 at 00:27:31 (GMT)
__ shp -:- Some thoughts about what you said, Nigel -:- Wed, Dec 27, 2000 at 20:44:02 (GMT)
__ __ Jim -:- Why not put some weights on those speculations? -:- Thurs, Dec 28, 2000 at 18:16:46 (GMT)
__ __ __ shp -:- Occam's Razor or the hedgeclipper -:- Fri, Dec 29, 2000 at 01:00:13 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Jim -:- Occam's Razor or the hedgeclipper -:- Fri, Dec 29, 2000 at 03:16:18 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ shp -:- Occam's Razor or the hedgeclipper -:- Sat, Dec 30, 2000 at 00:50:09 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Jim -:- But, shp, what about the other 'perhaps' s? -:- Sat, Dec 30, 2000 at 03:42:18 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ shp -:- Why I'd even mention it... -:- Sat, Dec 30, 2000 at 07:51:01 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Jim -:- Goddamit, shp! -:- Sat, Dec 30, 2000 at 21:41:03 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ shp -:- Dammit, Jim, I'm only a doctor!(Just had to say) -:- Sun, Dec 31, 2000 at 04:05:33 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Jim -:- P.S. -:- Sat, Dec 30, 2000 at 21:58:53 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Nigel -:- Magnolia... -:- Sun, Dec 31, 2000 at 18:08:35 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ ham -:- Even more reason for Occams Razor I reckon, -:- Fri, Dec 29, 2000 at 01:06:03 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ shp -:- Even more reason for Occams Razor I reckon, -:- Fri, Dec 29, 2000 at 01:16:05 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ hamzen -:- How old are your nippers then? -:- Fri, Dec 29, 2000 at 01:28:22 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ shp -:- How old are your nippers then? -:- Sat, Dec 30, 2000 at 01:00:53 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ hamzen -:- As requested shp, no sweat -:- Sat, Dec 30, 2000 at 02:45:53 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ shp -:- The 'businessman's lunch' and all that... -:- Sat, Dec 30, 2000 at 08:08:13 (GMT)
__ __ __ shp -:- Season's Greeting's, Jim -:- Thurs, Dec 28, 2000 at 22:58:33 (GMT)
__ Helen -:- Bad things happen - the Measure of a Master -:- Wed, Dec 27, 2000 at 17:23:49 (GMT)
__ Tim G -:- Bad things happen - the Measure of a Master -:- Wed, Dec 27, 2000 at 16:36:00 (GMT)
__ New-Age Redneck -:- As usual..... -:- Wed, Dec 27, 2000 at 16:22:09 (GMT)
__ Scott T. -:- Bad things happen - the Measure of a Master -:- Wed, Dec 27, 2000 at 15:42:57 (GMT)
__ __ ham -:- And if the universe was that perverse, -:- Wed, Dec 27, 2000 at 16:37:23 (GMT)
__ __ __ New-Age Redneck -:- Hammy, hammy, hammy -:- Wed, Dec 27, 2000 at 17:36:56 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Scott T. -:- Hammy, hammy, hammy -:- Sat, Dec 30, 2000 at 20:50:03 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Robyn -:- Hammy, hammy, hammy -:- Thurs, Dec 28, 2000 at 21:18:37 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ ham -:- I'll second that BIGTIME (nt) -:- Thurs, Dec 28, 2000 at 21:41:12 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ born again pagan -:- Don't start nuthin, Redneck -:- Wed, Dec 27, 2000 at 23:13:02 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Steve Quint -:- That Was Good - Do I Know You? -:- Wed, Dec 27, 2000 at 19:33:11 (GMT)
__ __ __ Helen -:- And if the universe was that perverse, -:- Wed, Dec 27, 2000 at 17:27:31 (GMT)
__ bazza -:- hey I just emailed you!! nt -:- Wed, Dec 27, 2000 at 15:15:00 (GMT)

Tim G -:- Hitting where it hurts -:- Wed, Dec 27, 2000 at 13:51:30 (GMT)
__ janet -:- forget malibu-use the los angeles times -:- Thurs, Dec 28, 2000 at 11:07:11 (GMT)
__ Marianne -:- Hitting where it hurts -:- Wed, Dec 27, 2000 at 19:58:24 (GMT)
__ (one of the)MRC -:- Hitting where it hurts/good idea!!! -:- Wed, Dec 27, 2000 at 16:57:24 (GMT)
__ __ (one of the) MRC -:- Hitting where it hurts/good idea!!!,plus... -:- Thurs, Dec 28, 2000 at 03:44:01 (GMT)
__ __ Owl -:- Hitting where it hurts/good idea!!! -:- Thurs, Dec 28, 2000 at 03:37:03 (GMT)
__ __ __ (one of the) MRC -:- Hitting where it hurts/good idea!!!/TEASER -:- Thurs, Dec 28, 2000 at 04:05:43 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Owl -:- Hitting where it hurts/good idea!!!/TEASER -:- Thurs, Dec 28, 2000 at 04:40:57 (GMT)
__ __ Tim G -:- Hitting where it hurts/good idea!!! -:- Wed, Dec 27, 2000 at 17:19:54 (GMT)
__ __ __ Helen -:- Hitting where it hurts/good idea!!! -:- Wed, Dec 27, 2000 at 17:36:29 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ C.G. -:- Hitting where it hurts/good idea!!! -:- Thurs, Dec 28, 2000 at 04:31:37 (GMT)

eagle -:- fibromyalgia and other premie pains -:- Wed, Dec 27, 2000 at 13:14:26 (GMT)
__ Helen -:- fibromyalgia and other premie pains -:- Wed, Dec 27, 2000 at 17:14:03 (GMT)
__ __ Disculta -:- Ouch, yawn, ouch -:- Thurs, Dec 28, 2000 at 20:36:28 (GMT)
__ __ __ Helen -:- Ouch, yawn, ouch -:- Thurs, Dec 28, 2000 at 23:01:05 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Disculta -:- Ouch, yawn, ouch -:- Fri, Dec 29, 2000 at 01:37:59 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Helen -:- Ouch, yawn, ouch -:- Fri, Dec 29, 2000 at 03:51:38 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Joy -:- Ouch, yawn, ouch -:- Fri, Dec 29, 2000 at 07:42:59 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Eagle -:- Ouch, yawn, ouch -:- Fri, Dec 29, 2000 at 16:27:24 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Helen -:- Ouch, yawn, ouch -:- Sat, Dec 30, 2000 at 01:29:39 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Disculta -:- Apologizing to the bod - a letter -:- Sat, Dec 30, 2000 at 00:42:31 (GMT)

SB -:- What Maharaji CAN tell the premies. -:- Wed, Dec 27, 2000 at 11:43:50 (GMT)
__ Disculta -:- READ THE ABOVE POST exes and Lardy! nt -:- Thurs, Dec 28, 2000 at 20:52:00 (GMT)

Salam -:- Can you belive this............ot -:- Wed, Dec 27, 2000 at 06:53:34 (GMT)
__ Sir Dave -:- Can you belive this............ot -:- Wed, Dec 27, 2000 at 12:31:56 (GMT)
__ ham -:- Only in America! (nt) -:- Wed, Dec 27, 2000 at 07:53:41 (GMT)

Steve Quint -:- Some Deep Thoughts -:- Wed, Dec 27, 2000 at 02:01:10 (GMT)
__ Oliver -:- Some Sleep Thoughts -:- Wed, Dec 27, 2000 at 18:57:14 (GMT)

Wondering -:- Who Is Danielle Fitzpatrick? -:- Tues, Dec 26, 2000 at 23:35:53 (GMT)
__ Ian Dury -:- ..she's currently an instructor...(nt) -:- Wed, Dec 27, 2000 at 21:53:37 (GMT)
__ __ Joe -:- What do Instructors do nowadays? -:- Wed, Dec 27, 2000 at 22:18:44 (GMT)
__ __ __ Ian Dury -:- What do Instructors do nowadays? -:- Thurs, Dec 28, 2000 at 04:45:25 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Joe -:- I got it. -:- Fri, Dec 29, 2000 at 02:33:13 (GMT)
__ Her mother -:- Who Is Danielle Fitzpatrick? -:- Wed, Dec 27, 2000 at 11:45:59 (GMT)
__ Paul -:- Who Is Danielle Fitzpatrick? -:- Wed, Dec 27, 2000 at 04:00:31 (GMT)

Paul -:- Maharaji -:- Tues, Dec 26, 2000 at 22:41:15 (GMT)
__ Oliver -:- One never do know, do one? (nt). -:- Wed, Dec 27, 2000 at 19:00:27 (GMT)

Elan Vital -:- New FAQs -:- Tues, Dec 26, 2000 at 21:20:50 (GMT)
__ la-ex -:- FAQs?LOLcan we put this somehwere for all tosee?nt -:- Wed, Dec 27, 2000 at 06:54:08 (GMT)
__ Bazza -:- Nah you got it entirely wrong -:- Wed, Dec 27, 2000 at 04:09:33 (GMT)
__ Marianne -:- New FAQs -:- Wed, Dec 27, 2000 at 03:26:31 (GMT)
__ Roger eDrek -:- Elan Vital, can you elaborate on Synchronization? -:- Tues, Dec 26, 2000 at 22:37:42 (GMT)
__ __ Elan Vital -:- Your frequently asked, stupid/ confused questions -:- Wed, Dec 27, 2000 at 01:44:29 (GMT)
__ __ __ Roger eDrek -:- Don't give up on me, Elan Vital, sir! -:- Wed, Dec 27, 2000 at 05:21:10 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ TED Farkel -:- Slow down, Mr.eDrek and come again... -:- Wed, Dec 27, 2000 at 06:37:28 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Roger eDrek -:- Thank the Lord for new premies -:- Wed, Dec 27, 2000 at 19:58:02 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ TED Farkel(a good friend) -:- Mr. eDrek, that's what friends are for!!! -:- Wed, Dec 27, 2000 at 23:29:10 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Roger eDrek -:- I'm feeling the gratitude now! -:- Thurs, Dec 28, 2000 at 03:59:22 (GMT)
__ Aussi Ji -:- Give that author a banana -:- Tues, Dec 26, 2000 at 22:34:25 (GMT)
__ __ suchabanana -:- Ok, I award one very choice Costa Rican 'naner (nt -:- Thurs, Dec 28, 2000 at 04:49:59 (GMT)

Bongo -:- What were the dates of Copenhagen and Essen? -:- Tues, Dec 26, 2000 at 19:54:31 (GMT)
__ hamzen -:- Yuch, don't remind me. -:- Tues, Dec 26, 2000 at 20:42:43 (GMT)
__ __ Salam -:- It does give you an indegestion, doesn't it?..nt -:- Wed, Dec 27, 2000 at 03:03:08 (GMT)
__ Joe -:- Copenhagen, I think... -:- Tues, Dec 26, 2000 at 20:09:01 (GMT)
__ __ JTF -:- Copenhagen, I think.../yes, it was -:- Wed, Dec 27, 2000 at 09:49:14 (GMT)
__ __ Bongo -:- Many thanks. -:- Tues, Dec 26, 2000 at 21:31:30 (GMT)
__ __ Lesley -:- Essen, I think... -:- Tues, Dec 26, 2000 at 20:40:37 (GMT)
__ __ __ Bin Liner -:- The bole shris were loud there as I remember -:- Tues, Dec 26, 2000 at 23:57:54 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Lesley -:- Those camp bed dormitories, eek -:- Wed, Dec 27, 2000 at 20:33:53 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Bongo -:- Oh the details, the details! -:- Thurs, Dec 28, 2000 at 20:32:28 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Lesley -:- Oh the details, the details! -:- Thurs, Dec 28, 2000 at 21:03:56 (GMT)

Stonor -:- Ex-premie org #1 at Google! -:- Tues, Dec 26, 2000 at 07:50:40 (GMT)

Aussi Ji -:- Back off hols -:- Tues, Dec 26, 2000 at 01:34:21 (GMT)
__ Aussi Ji -:- Back off hols -:- Tues, Dec 26, 2000 at 01:36:24 (GMT)
__ __ Aussi Ji -:- Back off hols Gerry -:- Tues, Dec 26, 2000 at 01:38:16 (GMT)
__ __ __ gErRy -:- Dear brother or sister Aussi Ji... -:- Tues, Dec 26, 2000 at 16:47:59 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Aussi Ji -:- Dear brother or sister Aussi Ji... -:- Tues, Dec 26, 2000 at 22:04:35 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Oliver -:- Pssst, hey Aussi(e) Ji.... -:- Wed, Dec 27, 2000 at 18:55:28 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ sam -:- Pssst, hey Aussi(e) Ji.... -:- Thurs, Dec 28, 2000 at 07:04:30 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Aussi Ji -:- Pssst, hey Aussi(e) Ji.... -:- Thurs, Dec 28, 2000 at 11:14:43 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ sam -:- weakening? doing weights!OT -:- Fri, Dec 29, 2000 at 06:01:28 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Aussi Ji -:- Pssst, hey Aussi(e) Ji.... -:- Thurs, Dec 28, 2000 at 00:54:51 (GMT)


Date: Thurs, Dec 28, 2000 at 16:09:27 (GMT)
From: ham
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: Sir D/Search Engine for Forum Archives
Message:
I can't find it anywhere on the site, so I'm assuming it's elsewhere.

Could you do us the address, I seem to have cleared it out of my hard drive, not too clever, I know!.

And unless I'm being really dense, wouldn't it be good to have it on the site front page

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Thurs, Dec 28, 2000 at 16:46:47 (GMT)
From: Sir Dave
Email: None
To: ham
Subject: Sir D/Search Engine for Forum Archives
Message:
It's not linked on ex.premie.org or this forum. It could be but that's not up to me. Click on my name and you'll see all my search engines and sites. Search the forum archives is next to the Forum 5 link.

.. Dave

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Thurs, Dec 28, 2000 at 19:05:44 (GMT)
From: Des Perado.
Email: None
To: Sir Dave
Subject: Re: Sir D/Search Engine for Forum Archives
Message:
Thanks heaps Sir David.KCMG.
.
.
.
:))
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Thurs, Dec 28, 2000 at 23:36:37 (GMT)
From: Sir Dave
Email: None
To: Des Perado.
Subject: What does KCMG mean? (nt)
Message:
Uh?
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Thurs, Dec 28, 2000 at 23:54:22 (GMT)
From: Oliver
Email: None
To: Sir Dave
Subject: Kindly Call Me God. :)) (nt)
Message:
nt
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Thurs, Dec 28, 2000 at 18:45:51 (GMT)
From: ham
Email: None
To: Sir Dave
Subject: Thanx for that sir d
Message:
I really had forgotten how fast it was, how the hell did you manage that?

Really think it ought to be available on f5.

People turning up looking for visits by others, topic search etc, so useful.

Isn't it here because of the legal shenanigans last year?

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Date: Thurs, Dec 28, 2000 at 23:34:43 (GMT)
From: Sir Dave
Email: sirdavid12@hotmail.com
To: ham
Subject: Fast but not in real life
Message:
How I made it so fast is a trade secret only known by myself and the internet god. Well it finds the links fast enough but you have to wait a while for the pages to load.

Tonight I walked three miles on the ice to get some petrol because I ran out. After slipping over on the ice with my full petrol can and nearly blowing myself up, I finally got back to my car and found I had a puncture and my spare is also punctured.

These are not the actions of a cyber-super-hero.

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Date: Fri, Dec 29, 2000 at 00:58:55 (GMT)
From: ham
Email: None
To: Sir Dave
Subject: Straight out of a Damien Hirst show I reckon
Message:
Weird I just watched this amazing tv prog on Damien Hirst ,god brit tv's so good now, and for some deep reason I was comparing him to gm in my head, so deep I went right off on one.
He asks someone in the show what amazed them about living, the fella couldn't think of anything, so he asks hirst what he found amazing about living, he says 'everything'.
The guys so up for it, so alive, such imagination. And I thought of big boy, the man supposedly with so much respect for life, supposedly in touch with the creative source, and I thought about gm's 'productions', his 'art' work, and what was missing, and I realized, it's passion, passion for life full stop. No way he'd explore mistakes, honestly deal with death, life, no way he'd ever have the guts to really go for it, speak honestly in front of camera. He's so safe, control freakery no risks worst side of suburban middle class male safe. No REAL adventure.
And then I read your post, alive, buzzing, riddled with mistakes, human.

God we wasted so much time not living, and when we did have wild adventures mostly going to festivals, it was always couched in that grace/lila lala land.

Sickening.

Loved your post so much I'd like to slip it into my newsletter I'm producing at the mo, ok with you?

While on techie stuff, although it's gonna be non-virtual with cassette dj mix, and will be going on the net around springtime, which probably means summer, since everything always seems to take twice as long as I think it's gonna, I'd also like to be able to post it e-mail style. Got any suggestions what would be the best format, doing it in Quark Express, and how to transfer it?

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Date: Fri, Dec 29, 2000 at 18:29:08 (GMT)
From: Sir Dave
Email: None
To: ham
Subject: Straight out of a Damien Hirst show I reckon
Message:
I know nothing about Quark Express and I do all my writing in either Windows Wordpad, Greenstreet Publisher or Frontpage (for the web).

Of course you can use my post. But that was just a normal day for me and there's plenty more where it came from!

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Date: Thurs, Dec 28, 2000 at 17:53:15 (GMT)
From: Jean-Michel
Email: None
To: Sir Dave
Subject: I suggest the link for the archive page
Message:
on epo.

As the FA is in charge of that page, why don't you ask him ?

Do you see any other page on this website as the most relevant place for the link?

My problem is that there is always more and more stuff to add on this website, I have quite a lot waiting to be edited and set on new pages, that I'd prefer to have this link on a static part of the website ....

Some suggestion?

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Date: Thurs, Dec 28, 2000 at 23:25:42 (GMT)
From: Sir Dave
Email: None
To: Jean-Michel
Subject: I suggest the link for the archive page
Message:
I link to the forum archives search engine from the forum archives page would be the logical choice. Of course, a link from the top of this forum would be a good idea too, if it was placed next to the forum archives link. Whatever.

I would ask the FA if I knew who he was but I don't so I can't. Perhaps you could ask him, Jean-Michel (if you know who he/she is).

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Date: Fri, Dec 29, 2000 at 16:05:21 (GMT)
From: Stonor
Email: None
To: Sir Dave
Subject: I agree that the link for the search engine ....
Message:
I agree Sir Dave. I think it would be best on the Active Forum page so that people can easily do a search without having to go to the archives first. If you have dial-up service these pages can take quite a bit of time to download.
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Date: Thurs, Dec 28, 2000 at 04:52:50 (GMT)
From: Sir Dave
Email: sirdavid12@hotmail.com
To: Everyone
Subject: That's illogical, Captain
Message:
On the Helen Vital site it says:

'Is Elan Vital aware of criticisms of its activities that have appeared on the internet?
Yes. We are aware that criticisms, including unsubstantiated rumors and allegations, have appeared on the web, most often placed by anonymous posters. Whereas some people might be initially disturbed by these, we believe in and endorse everyone's right to free speech. We have been advised by counsel, however, that some of the posted materials infringe on copyrights belonging to us. Obviously we do not enjoy being on the receiving end of ungrounded criticism. At the same time we welcome criticism that can help us do what we do in a better way.'

For a start, a lot of these so called unsubstantiated rumors and allegations have not been made by anonymous posters and they are not unsubstantiated. But here's the illogical part:

This is spin of the worst kind - that they don't enjoy being on the receiving end of 'ungrounded' criticism and they take ubrage to having their copyrights infringed. The two are not connected in any way and trying to link them together in some kind of spurious spin is indicative of trying to muddy the waters. Particularly when in the next paragraph they write:

'Has Elan Vital taken action to protect its reputation?
Yes. Elan Vital, to protect its copyrights, has written letters to the ISPs involved where it believes there have been infringements of its copyrights. As a not-for-profit organization, we were reluctant to use the donations of our contributors for this activity. However we wanted you to know that we felt it appropriate to use our resources on this occasion to protect our rights. Failure to do so could jeopardize our ability to do so in the future.'

No word there about what action it has taken to protect its reputation, about how it is dealing with the unsubstantiated allegations; just more flannel about how it has used donated money to try to protect its copyright. I do hope that premies don't mind their money going towards such a worthy cause. I mean, Roger's big boobs picture could cost thousands of dollars to get off the web and there's a gallery of such pictures building up.

So anyway, I would really like to know, as a concerned citizen, just what Helen Vital is doing about all these initially disturbing unsubstantiated rumours by anonynous people. You know, the sort of stuff that the anonymous Michael Dettmers has filled us in on.

Come on Helen Vital, I am worried about this and I expect you to get your finger out and do something!

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Date: Thurs, Dec 28, 2000 at 09:42:42 (GMT)
From: janet of venice
Email: None
To: Sir Dave
Subject: That's illogical, Captain
Message:
' As a not-for-profit organization, we were reluctant to use the donations of our contributors for this activity.'
.....because the sole purpose of our shell corporation is to amass all the money we can, for the gluttonous self indulgence of our unethical,amoral, uncaring leader, and he can't stand it when any of it has to be spent on anything but him and his whims'
'However we wanted you to know that we felt it appropriate to use our resources on this occasion to protect our rights.'
...although in truth, in the real day to day experience of things, we don't have any rights, and never do, and never did, and we are beginning to wonder why the hell we are here, even doing this, when we get nothing, and the fat guy on the hill takes everything.
...oh--and by the way, we don't use our resources. We use yours. We don't have any.The fat guy takes them all.
'Failure to do so, could jeopardize our ability to do so, in the future.'
...what we mean, is that if we ever failed to exploit an opportunity to use your resources, there might appear a moment in which you might realize you were being exploited, and we couldn't run the risk of letting you notice the experience of not being exploited, even momentarily, because it would give you time to see the difference, and you might actually stop letting us exploit your resources and keep them for yourself, so that the fat guy up the hill wouldn't get anything'so you see--we must therefore take these resources of yours, which we exploited from you, in order to prosecute you, to stop you from making people aware of our exploiting them, so that you will not be able to continue to make them aware, or they might choose to cease to be exploited, and would deny us any way to take their resources away from them and give them to the fat guy on the hill, while we ourselves got nothing. That is how we qualify for our non-profit status. We all have absolutely no rights and neither do you. We get absolutely nothing. Our job is to get your resources away from you, and get them for him. And to get in the way of anything that would end it. This is why he hates it, that we have to spend that money on you instead of on him. Surely you understand'
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Date: Thurs, Dec 28, 2000 at 05:34:43 (GMT)
From: shp
Email: None
To: Sir Dave
Subject: Q and A with commentary
Message:
Q: Is Elan Vital aware of criticisms of its activities that have appeared on the internet?

A: Yes. We are aware that criticisms, including unsubstantiated rumors and allegations, have appeared on the web, most often placed by anonymous posters. Whereas some people might be initially disturbed by these, we believe in and endorse everyone's right to free speech. We have been advised by counsel, however, that some of the posted materials infringe on copyrights belonging to us. Obviously we do not enjoy being on the receiving end of ungrounded criticism. At the same time we welcome criticism that can help us do what we do in a better way.'

Commentary to Elan Vital, I bet you are reading this:

You said ...'we welcome criticism that can help us do what we do in a better way.'

OK, I want to give you some constructive criticism that I think may help you do what you do in a better way, even though I am not quite sure what it is that you do in entirety.

Here is my constructive criticism. Let's forget about any unfounded rumors by anonymous parties for now. Let's also table any conversation about copyright infringements for now. Let's talk about things that have been brought up by named parties about named people instead. Infringements upon the rights and the souls of trusting premies, some children at the time of the infringement, weigh more heavily on the heart of my God than any copyright violations ever could. Perhaps if some of that gets cleared up, you can do what you do better, if that means helping to spread peace and love in the world.

Why don't we keep our own doorstep clean at the same time we go out to the rest of the world to find more people who want and need Knowledge? Why doesn't Maharaji and/or EV set up a sincere fact-finding team of premies and send them into the field to meet with named parties who have been documented as having been physically, emotionally, psychologically or in any other way injured by any agents of Maharaji, deliberately, accidentally or as a result of criminal sickness?

Maybe if the doorstep to Knowledge was not strewn with the wounded, even if by friendly fire, just maybe others would not have as difficult time traversing the threshold to knowing life's purpose.

I am sorry if this is not as consicse or grammatically correct as your letter was, but it is late and I tire of the grand contradiction and your too cool attitude toward those who have an honest grievance, who may well have been heard but to whom no direct response has been given.

Thank you for your time and for the opportunity to offer my constructive criticism. Will I still be allowed into programs if I choose to attend?

Sincerely,

Sanford Pass


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Date: Thurs, Dec 28, 2000 at 13:27:20 (GMT)
From: Robyn
Email: None
To: shp
Subject: Q and A with commentary
Message:
Dear Sandy,
Your sincere post really touched my heart. Sounds like you are finding your own way to deal with the inconsistencies you have found. I wish you all the best. You are a good man.
Love,
Robyn
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Date: Thurs, Dec 28, 2000 at 05:07:08 (GMT)
From: suchabanana
Email: None
To: Sir Dave
Subject: when you slip on banana skin, u can't blame banana
Message:
'At the same time we welcome criticism that can help us do what we do in a better way.'

Yeah, well: thanks, for sharing and caring and daring and fuzzing and wuzzing -- whatever it is u doo, when u hot diggety dog doggetty doo dog dot ding a wit...

Peace,

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Date: Thurs, Dec 28, 2000 at 11:22:31 (GMT)
From: hamzen
Email: None
To: suchabanana
Subject: Unless it's a blonde seeking, TINY banana (nt)
Message:
a
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Date: Wed, Dec 27, 2000 at 23:13:56 (GMT)
From: ulf
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: M talking about womens,
Message:
I just read this in a old divine light magazine i got
from 1972
maharajji is asked:
Why is it that all the famous perfect masters
have always been men .

And the lord (maharaj ji ) answer :

What do you mean `` a famous perfect master ``?
You see, god gives women a great thing,
because he takes birth from women.
And to equalise this, by being in the human frame of a
man, and that`s what we don`t understand.
But in my heart, personally i have great respect for women
because even god has to come through a women.

So he mustn`t favour women more, he must equalise this.

So when he comes, he comes through a women but takes a man`s
body. ....You see??
He equalises! understand??

Now women mustn`t be proud of this and shouldn´t waste their
time just being proud of it .
They must take the privilege of it.
But people do get proud ,,,they take the Rolls and put it
on a turn table, on a glass piece, and stand and look at it .

Oh ´,i´ve got a rolls,`` and never drive it.
After some time it becomes junk and it it finished.......

This was the wise words of our lard in 72
wonder what the femenist scene wouldt say now???
and i wonder what did they say back in 72 ?????

Ulf

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Date: Wed, Dec 27, 2000 at 23:41:49 (GMT)
From: Ulf
Email: None
To: ulf
Subject: M talking about womens,
Message:
Just a litlle thing from the same satsang:

Guru maharaj ji : is it possible then to receive
knowledge from a master who is not in the flesh ??

M answer :

No it`s not,
because only a master who is in the flesh can answer every question that you have in your mind and can help you socially and
as a HUMAN BEING and in every way. ALRIGHT???

And so he did !!! HUH HUH HHHHHHHHh

ULF

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Date: Wed, Dec 27, 2000 at 23:31:16 (GMT)
From: Elan Vital
Email: None
To: ulf
Subject: Explanations
Message:
Dear ulf,

We here at Elan Vital do not believe Maharaji ever said those things. We think some confused, Hindu-oriented Mahatma probably said them, or else some of the people who are now ex-premies wrote that magazine and put those words into Maharaji's mouth. Or they, or you, probably just made it up. Lots of people do those things to Maharaji, the poor dear. Why, we feel so bad for him, that several of the blond women on our staff have recently offered to have sex with him.

But even if we are wrong, Maharaji was certainly not claiming to be God in that statement. Where does he, in that statement, say 'I am God?' Nowhere, and this is where your lies and confusion get spread. Just because he was claiming to be the Perfect Master, and when asked why all the Perfect Masters have been men he equates Perfect Master with God, and says 'God' takes birth from a woman, that doesn't mean he is saying HE is God. No way. Why, if that were true we could be accused of lying on our website, and, worse, Maharaji would be telling a blatant lie in the video clip on our website. That just isn't possible, and is untrue. Maharaji is incapable of lying. You just lack understanding and are confused.

Also, Maharaji's statments were very enlightened for the time, you know. He said God equalizes between men and women. This is right in line with Elan Vital's policy of nondiscrimination on the basis of sex.

Maharaji is just saying that men are the leaders and are the Perfect Masters, and women get to be pregnant and have kids, one in several gazillion of which might be God, unless the Mother is Jewish, and then, of course, she thinks all her sons are God, but we at Elan Vital are now digressing and we don't want to do that.

The bottom line is Maharaji never said that, and he doesn't say it anymore, and he didn't mean what you say he did, and it was, in fact profound, anyway. Clear?

If you want to know what Maharaji is really talking about, check out his books of poetry on the Visions Website. For a short time only, for $29.95, you can get an intelligent set of poems from Maharaji, surrounded by pictures of clouds, that are just incredible. Janice Wilson had an orgasm while reading them. They are that good.

Sincerely,

Elan Vital

ELAN VITAL: ABSOLUTELY NOT A CULT SINCE 1971

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Date: Thurs, Dec 28, 2000 at 09:09:56 (GMT)
From: Mickey Moss
Email: None
To: Elan Vital
Subject: Explanations
Message:
EV:

As long as you're expraining stuff, there's something I don't understand about this Perfect Master business. If Jesus was one of the Perfect Masters, and a new one always comes to replace one that dies, then what was the point of the resurrection... and why was a replacement necessary? I mean, what's the point in coming back for a visit if you don't intend to hang around? It's like that 'Yellow Submarine' movie. I could never figure out what that was all about, either. And that 'Blow Up' movie... that was sure a head scratcher???

MM
'of moss and men'

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Date: Wed, Dec 27, 2000 at 23:42:16 (GMT)
From: la-ex
Email: None
To: Elan Vital
Subject: EV-think maha gets a chuckle from this? nt
Message:
nt
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Date: Thurs, Dec 28, 2000 at 00:07:52 (GMT)
From: Elan Vital
Email: None
To: la-ex
Subject: Maharaji's Sense of Humor
Message:
Dear Mr. Ex,

In answer to your question, as we say on our website, we can say that, 'in private, Maharaji comes across as a shy person though with an outrageous sense of humor.' You know, he is the kind of person will make a big gag out of a fatal car accident, and play 'hide and seek' at the same time, or someone who will have sex with one of his followers and then pretend he isn't home when she calls the next day, and things like that. He might even make a video that says nothing but FUCK YOU!!! to someone he is wanting to kid. He can be really hysterical. And when he smokes reefer, he can really get the giggles and tries to sing Peter Frampton. Really outrageous.

As we also say on our website, 'if you speak to people who know him well and you find that he is at best a one-of-a-kind visionary, at worst unfathomable.' This is really clear, isn't it? I mean this really sums him up. Like it was kind of visionary of him to do the unexpected and allow a known child-molester to roam at large in his organization for years. That was so unfathomable, but outragously funny because it was so unexpected, right?

And, as we also point out on our website Maharaji 'is eminently practical, as reflected by his grasp of and liking for mechanics, electronics, flying, composing music, and the artistic and technical aspects of producing professional quality materials to promote his teachings,' not to mention his enjoyment of promicuous sex, marijuana, good cognac and a Yacht worth about $7 million. I mean how much more 'eminently practical' can you get than owning a yacht that probably costs more to maintain than one of his followers earns in ten years! Funny. Practical and funny.

And it's just like that hysterical joke Maharaji used to tell over and over and over, about sending the guy to hell with a quarter and that joke on our website when he says 'When you slip on a banana skin, you can’t blame the banana or the person who threw it there. It was you, through a moment of unconsciousness, didn’t look where you were walking.' Like we said, Maharaji has an outrageous sense of humor.

If you would like to see more of Maharaji's brilliant and outragous humor, check out one of his dozens of videos available on the Visions website.

Sincerly,

Elan Vital

ELAN VITAL: ABSOLUTELY NOT A CULT SINCE 1971

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Date: Thurs, Dec 28, 2000 at 11:34:26 (GMT)
From: Jethro
Email: None
To: Elan Vital
Subject: Question to Elan Vital
Message:
Thanks for explaining about his sense of humour...now I understand.

Merry Christmas Jethro

PS Oh I almost forgot could you explain the humour in maharaji breaking Gary Gerrard's nose with a stick? ..... I was told that Gary was really honoured to be touched by Him(even though when he expressed pain, maharaji said to Gary 'Well, would you rather I didn't touch you?' which of course made Gary feel expremely guilty at not seeing the honour of being smashed in the nose by God and then he(Gary) realised he was being honoured).

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Date: Thurs, Dec 28, 2000 at 01:04:42 (GMT)
From: Cynthia
Email: None
To: Elan Vital
Subject: Visions Website?
Message:
Elan Vital,

Isn't that the site where for a simple Indian shawl it costs $275.00 US?

Why does Maharaji charge $3.00-$5.00 for someone to download a transcript of his talks, you know, his clear, syncronized satsang?

Elan Vital, can you explain to me sir or madamn. Speak to me, please, with all the truth you can muster in your heart, in devotion to the Lord of the Universe, Sant Ji, Guru Maharaj Ji, Maharaji--what's in a name anyway, right? You tell us how it REALLY is, please. I personally would be very, very grateful, and humbled....

I would like to know the brand of cognac he uses, the exact type of snifter he pours into ('scuse me) someone pours it into for him, the exact type of weed he prefers, his ciggie brand. Because I want to:

Emulate Him

I don't need a yacht, a canoe will do in Vermont. I don't need a jet, I like to watch the hawks and birds. But I do need some cash. Can you talk to Maharaji right away and ask him if he'd ''lend'' me some cash?? (Smirk) Between you and me EV, I think we could make a killin'.

And please don't forget all my above requests; not too much to ask from a former ashram (opps) shelter premie. A girl just wants to have fun. And I'm a blonde, too. Hee Hee..


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Date: Thurs, Dec 28, 2000 at 04:58:39 (GMT)
From: suchie
Email: None
To: Cynthia
Subject: He much like blondies. So, you in luck,I think (nt
Message:
nt
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Date: Thurs, Dec 28, 2000 at 01:20:57 (GMT)
From: Elan Vital
Email: None
To: Cynthia
Subject: Visions Website?
Message:
Dear Cynthia:

The merchandise sold by Visions is of the highest quality, extremely well synchronized, and worth every penny. Wait until you see our swan-or-Lotus-encrusted-gold cuttlery, just $3599.99 buys a set that will provide service for eight.

We have to say, Cynthia, that with the words you are using, you seem to be stuck back in the dark, Hinduistic, concept-laden period that only lasted about 15 minutes and was soon disgarded, but, unfortunately, Maharaji is still having to deal with it. You know, all that stuff was all caused by his Mother, that bitch, and the Mahatmas, those cretins. What Maharaji has had to put up with is just amazing. It's a good thing he's enigmatic and has an outrageous sense of humor, that's all we can say.

Regarding Maharaji's personal life, well, we just can't comment, except to say that he has a wife and four lovely children, lives in a delapidated house in Malibu, flies planes, collects watches, and is just so practical and unfathomable.

But he IS a successful businessman, and might be interested in investments, if whatever it is you have to suggest, provides EVERYTHING to him, like Amtext, or is just a total ripoff, like the junk we sell on the Visions site, so gullible and stupid the premies are to buy that stuff. What a racket, but neither Maharaji, nor Elan Vital is comlaining.

But Maharaji just had such a sense of humor by getting those stupid premies to pay to go to programs, and them get them to pay for satellite broadcasts of the very same programs. What a sense of humor he has!

In Synchronicity,

Elan Vital

ELAN VITAL: ABSOLUTELY NOT A CULT SINCE 1971

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Date: Wed, Dec 27, 2000 at 23:10:45 (GMT)
From: la-ex
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: looking for a book and magazine article....
Message:
All- a book and article was mentioned to me by someone who has engaged in various therapies and deprogrammings over the years.(he was an 'exit counselor' for many years)

Does anyone know where we could find these?

1-Harper's magazine from the late 70's-'On spiritual Obedience', an account of a premie who was in the process of leaving dlm.

2-'Thought reform and the psychology of totalism', by Robert Lifton, esp. chapter 22. this is regarded as the 'Bible' of deprogrammers, a must read...

Can anyone help?
Might be good for the site in some place...

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Date: Thurs, Dec 28, 2000 at 00:57:57 (GMT)
From: Bazza
Email: None
To: la-ex
Subject: Located book, working on mag
Message:
My favourite place to find rare books online is Bibliofind

Did a search for the book, got these results

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Date: Wed, Dec 27, 2000 at 19:46:25 (GMT)
From: Elan Vital
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: FAQs: Difficulties having a successful lifestyle
Message:
Elan Vital has taken note of a large number of unfounded, negative and anonymous comments regarding Maharaji's weight and his successful lifestyle.

The very antithisis of a cult, Elan Vital has a policy of non-discrimination of both rich and fat people. Elan Vital does not believe it is appropriate to judge Maharaji or anyone else, because of an obviously successful lifestyle, nor on one's inability to push away from the table prior to stuffing one's face. Maharaji has stated that knowledge can be practiced by even fat, rich people, as long as one is not attached to either money or food. Plus, being fat and rich is not as easy as it looks, as Maharaji has mentioned several times. It is Elan Vital's policy to agree with Maharaji, that once you have a couple million, you feel you need two more million to protect the two you already have. All this is very stressful. We have observed that Maharaji works very hard in dealing with this serious burden.

Indeed, Elan Vital believes that any use of alcohol, drugs, promiscuous sex with his followers, and the like, were just minor ways of dealing with the horrible pressures of an openly successful lifestyle that Maharaji has been forced to bear out of his love and compassion. Being enigmatic may have also helped.

And while we are on the subject, we also wanted to point out that the ashrams, which literally mean 'shelter, and which only existed for a brief period during the horrible dark period of the DRUG CULTURE, also worked partly because they kept a whole generation of young people sheltered from getting too fat by requiring that they be vegetarian, and prohibiting steak, pork, and alcoholic beverages. The health advantages of these shelters were noted when Maharaji was recognized for his contributions in sheltering young people from the health perils of obesity by several State Legislatures and the United Nations.

In Syncrhonicity,

Elan Vital

ELAN VITAL: ABSOLUTELY NOT A CULT SINCE 1971

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Date: Wed, Dec 27, 2000 at 19:52:33 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Elan Vital
Subject: The whole set should be up, no?
Message:
These are so funny, these fake FAQs. Are you keeping them all? What a neat thing it'd be if they were all posted permanently somewhere.
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Date: Wed, Dec 27, 2000 at 22:53:46 (GMT)
From: la-ex
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: FAQ'some of the best we've seen-please keep!nt
Message:
nt
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Date: Wed, Dec 27, 2000 at 19:45:30 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: Remember this ball and chain?
Message:
From ELK, of course. How in the world could this be healthy?:

Two parts

Part of me is stupid
and part of me is wise.
Part of me is arrogant
and part of me is humble.
Part of me is ungrateful
and part of me is grateful.
And I have learned that I really like
the one part, my heart.
And I don't much care for the other
and I wish I didn't even have it.
That I could gather it up
and get rid of it for once and all.
It seems I can only work and choose
to stay close to my heart.
This stupid, ungrateful, arrogance
is so unbecoming of a person
myself or anyone else.
When I see it, it is kind of like snot
on someones face, disgusting.
We wouldn't want to be seen like that.
But the heart is so, so beautiful.
Sweet, kind, loving
graceful, beautiful, blessed.
Ah, I am so grateful
to meet my true self
and learn to embrace it everyday.
Thank you for teaching me, Maharaji
to live in the beautiful garden of my heart.
There it is always the season for love, joy
to feel content, thankful.

Janice Wilson
Baldwinsville, NY, USA

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Date: Thurs, Dec 28, 2000 at 01:30:51 (GMT)
From: Joe
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: The hell of the duality of the Maharaji Cult
Message:
Wow, what a hell to live in. One part of you at war with the other part. What a fucking piece of regressive Hindu crap Maharaji preaches. Poor Janice. It must be hell.
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Date: Sat, Dec 30, 2000 at 15:31:02 (GMT)
From: cq
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: The hell of the duality of the Maharaji Cult
Message:
A few quotes from Carl Jung (the 'Warlock of Geneva') could be appropriate here ~


“One does not become enlightened by
imagining figures of light,
but by making the darkness conscious.”

'There is no light without shadow,
and no psychic wholeness without imperfection.'

.
.
.
Neurosis is the suffering of a soul which has not discovered its meaning.

Where love rules, there is no will to power; and where power predominates, there love is lacking. The one is the Shadow of the other.

Recognition of the shadow, on the other hand, leads to the modesty we need in order to acknowledge imperfection. And it is just this conscious recognition and consideration that are needed whenever a human relationship is to be established.

A human relationship is not based on differentiation and perfection, for these only emphasize the differences or call forth the exact opposite; it is based, rather on imperfection, on what is weak, helpless and in need of support — the very ground and motive for dependence. The perfect have no need of others, but weakness has, for it seeks support and does not confront its partner with anything that might force him into an inferior position and even humiliate him. This humiliation may happen only too easily when high idealism plays too prominent a role. '

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Date: Sun, Dec 31, 2000 at 03:41:49 (GMT)
From: Stonor
Email: None
To: cq
Subject: 'The ability of fairy is to span the chasm ...
Message:
What a great post Chris - thanks! Do you know which Jung book the quotes are from? Loved this one,

“One does not become enlightened by imagining figures of light,
but by making the darkness conscious.”

Somehow or other this feels related to your post:

'The ability of fairy is to span the chasm between Heaven and Hell.' (from an intro to a book I read about 15 years ago)

And a Very Happy New Year to you! All the best!

Anna

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Date: Thurs, Dec 28, 2000 at 00:06:11 (GMT)
From: Salam
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Cann't expect anything else from janiec
Message:
She has permenat brain damage.
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Date: Wed, Dec 27, 2000 at 22:58:33 (GMT)
From: la-ex
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: what's this about snot? Anth, a repsonse please!
Message:
so Janice doesn't like snot on a person's face,huh...

who is she to judge snot on anyone's face...ev doesn't endorse judgement you know...suppose the snot was on maharaji's face?

and some people believe that snot may be one of the four manifestations of god...anth?

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Date: Thurs, Dec 28, 2000 at 02:25:12 (GMT)
From: Sir Dave
Email: None
To: la-ex
Subject: This is in the Bible
Message:
Where it sayeth, 'My cup runneth over'

That is when the inner snot (i.e. nectar) becomes so profuse that it cannot be contained and it runs all over the devotees face as a manifestation of that love and that appreciation.

Snot on the face is a mark of true devotion, similar to the saliva that pours from the mouth of born again Evangelical Christians.

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Date: Thurs, Dec 28, 2000 at 03:19:44 (GMT)
From: la-ex
Email: None
To: Sir Dave
Subject: Sir D,thanks,now tell janice its ok(snotty face)nt
Message:
nt
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Date: Wed, Dec 27, 2000 at 22:09:56 (GMT)
From: ulf
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Remember this ball and chain?
Message:
someone , please talk to this Janice Wilson
if there is a thing called Karma, i think she is into a lot
of shit.

Ulf

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Date: Wed, Dec 27, 2000 at 19:56:40 (GMT)
From: Steve Quint
Email: the_avenger55@hotmail.com
To: Jim
Subject: I Can't Believe The Mad Elks Posted This
Message:
Fucking incredible. I just brought it up and it even has certain words highlighed. I don't believe my eyes. Someone tell me this is a bad dream which will end very soon.

And I have learned that I really like
the one part, my heart.
And I don't much care for the other
and I wish I didn't even have it.
That I could gather it up
and get rid of it for once and all.

Someone should have this woman comitted to a psychiatric institution for a while. I think if she were reciting this on a street corner in Vancouver she would be apprehended and taken to a psychiatric emergency unit.

When I see it, it is kind of like snot
on someones face, disgusting.
We wouldn't want to be seen like that.

Elkspeak should be illegal.

Steve

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Date: Thurs, Dec 28, 2000 at 09:57:27 (GMT)
From: janet
Email: None
To: steve quint
Subject: now i get it--mad ELK disease. how tragic
Message:
the way it gets in there and rots the brain and all. hey question--if vegetarians eat vegetables, what does a humanitarian eat?
so what would a humanitarian leader eat?
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Date: Wed, Dec 27, 2000 at 21:01:40 (GMT)
From: Roger eDrek
Email: drek@oz.net
To: Steve Quint
Subject: What kind of testimonial is this?
Message:
So, some aspirant or Joe Blow off the street is going to read this sick self-hating thinking from Janice and it's going to make them want to sign up with the program?

No wonder I'm so fucked up! I spent nearly 25 years of my life thinking like that?

You people are sick! Stop it before more people get hurt. That's no way to live - hating yourself.

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Date: Thurs, Dec 28, 2000 at 03:09:03 (GMT)
From: Rev John Hammond-Smyth
Email: pulpit@church.com
To: Roger eDrek
Subject: Psalm number 134 (a Psalm of David)
Message:
Rest easy, my son, for I feel a psalm coming on.

'My cup runneth over and snot doth pour from mine nose like a fountain of love. Yeah, even unto Helen Vital and the children of Prem, as a river that runneth to the sea, so mine nasal cavity hath opened and a river of green doth flow towards mine brethren.

I walked in the valley of the shadow of prem and behold, I didst practice the technique as is written by the great prophet, Anth of Gin. And I didst look up to heaven and didst taste the snot, and I knew that it was good.'

And the children of Prem didst revile me and mock me, for the Lord's nectar was upon my face and they didst say that I was unclean. And a daughter of Prem sayeth to me, - thou art disgusting before mine eyes, for thou hast snot upon thy face and are a lowly form of life.

And she dist turn her head away from me in revulsion and horror at what she saw. Yet I worried not because my cup doth indeed run over and poureth out nectar of green that covereth the lands of mine enemies.

I walk with the Lord with his snot upon my sleeve and the words of mine enemies are as cries of the creatures of the night. Verily I say unto you, for all the days of my life, even though I live without Kleenex or handkerchiefs, I will rejoice in the mucus of the Lord and will greet mine brethren with joy and snot upon my face.

Great is the Lord and wonders hath he shewn me and he that hath the mark of snot upon his face, I shall greet as mine own brother. Even unto the Assyrians and the Elkians of Vital!

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Date: Thurs, Dec 28, 2000 at 16:47:41 (GMT)
From: Mickey Moss
Email: ickymickey@home.com
To: Rev John Hammond-Smyth
Subject: Psnotpnose
Message:
Rev.:

A good dose of psalt water up the pnose could probably take care of that for you. Adjust to ptaste.

mm
'of moss and men'

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Date: Thurs, Dec 28, 2000 at 03:31:43 (GMT)
From: Roger eDrek
Email: drek@oz.net
To: Rev John Hammond-Smyth
Subject: I'm not sure that I can post that in the House
Message:
but I will!
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Date: Wed, Dec 27, 2000 at 16:18:56 (GMT)
From: Oliver
Email: notgiven@moment.com.au
To: Everyone
Subject: Are you in a cult?
Message:
http://www.goldhammer.com/selfquiz.htm
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Date: Wed, Dec 27, 2000 at 23:39:23 (GMT)
From: la-ex
Email: None
To: Oliver
Subject: Forum Adm.-can we put these questions on EPO?nt
Message:
nt
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Date: Wed, Dec 27, 2000 at 19:59:11 (GMT)
From: Joe
Email: None
To: Oliver
Subject: Wow, really excellent...
Message:
Great questions, some of the best I have seen on this subject.

I recommend that we all email these questions to Elan Vital and ask that they address THESE questions on their website and tell us why Elan Vital does not qualify as a CULT.

Just go over to the Elan Vital Website at www.elanvital.org and click on to their email.

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Date: Wed, Dec 27, 2000 at 17:18:47 (GMT)
From: Gregg
Email: None
To: Oliver
Subject: I knew the author when he was in a cult.
Message:
He went by the name of Arturo Goldhammer at the time.

This was in about 1980. I went to his apartment for a Denver Free University course in Dream Interpretation. The handbook was by the woman/guru mentioned on his website, Ann Ree Colton. I was distinctly underwhelmed by Ann Ree Colton. She was espousing a very twee mish-mash of Eastern/Western theologies, kind of like that lady in the I Am movement up in Montana near Yellowstone, what's her name...you know, with the cult members waiting in bunkers with weapons for the Apocalypse...the Church Universal and Triumphant...

Mr. Goldhammer, on the other hand, was one of the nicest men I've ever met. Very smart, very gentle. I'll have to pick up a copy of his book.

Good questions, BTW. I answered yes to about half of them when responding as the premie I once was, and yes to two or three in regards to my current cult. (Or, as I used to call DLM, 'spiritual group'.) I have a feeling that if a member of Peoples' Temple or Scientology or the Unification Church were to respond, they'd have to respond affirmatively to almost all of the questions.

Guru Maharaji's cult gets really cultish only at the higher levels. To the premie in the street, things have always been a little looser. Hindu lite, watered down cultishness.

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Date: Wed, Dec 27, 2000 at 16:45:14 (GMT)
From: cq
Email: None
To: Oliver
Subject: Are you in a cult?
Message:
Excellent site you've found there, Oliver.

These questions from the quiz I found to be particularly relevant to my own experience within the cult, though others no doubt will have their own:


Does your group discourage doubts, criticism or ideas that differ from their belief system?

Do you tend to rationalize whatever the group does even when it goes against your sense of right and wrong?

Does your group/belief system think they have/are the only or highest truth, or have the solution for the world’s problems?

Are your leader’s ideas or belief system considered beyond reproach or sacred?

Do you feel pressured to attend meetings, events, lectures, seminars? And do you feel guilty if you don’t attend?

and this from John Goldhammer's FAQ page:

Question: Everyone belongs to one or more groups, be they unions, religions, political parties, support groups or any number of others.

As members we gain much from these associations, but at what price?

Answer: A good question. The price we pay to belong to a destructive group runs the gamut, from mild emotional and psychological problems to complete
compromise of who we are
and what we ought to be doing as unique individuals on this planet.

A destructive group can easily erase one's innate sense of right and wrong, replacing it with a group agenda or belief system that often results in a serious loss of identity, loss of free will and control over one's life, loss of spontaneity or sense of humor, physical deterioration and abuse, and involuntary servitude and exploitation—to name just a few. In the book, you'll find out how many different types of groups go about gaining this sort of control over individuals, and ironically, why people are rarely aware they are 'under the influence.'


PS. Thanks for the Xmas good wishes, and I'll be emailing you in a couple of days.

Best,

Chris

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Date: Thurs, Dec 28, 2000 at 14:20:40 (GMT)
From: Oliver
Email: None
To: cq
Subject: Re: Are you in a cult?
Message:
Not anymore, thank the Lord.

Make no Master your God, but make all Masters your guide.

Now Chris, can I have another episode or three of your saga?

Oliver.
Ps. Numbers 6: 24-26.

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Date: Thurs, Dec 28, 2000 at 16:29:17 (GMT)
From: cq
Email: None
To: Oliver
Subject: Like I said, in a couple of days.
Message:
Amos 5:13
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Date: Wed, Dec 27, 2000 at 16:58:05 (GMT)
From: Bazza
Email: None
To: cq
Subject: These are some great am-I-in-a-cult questions
Message:
I thought these were the best questions. Premies, do you get a funy shiver up your spine when you read through these? Could be your inner guide is trying to tell you something.

Does your group have its own unique words, clichés, slogans, chants, prayers and doctrinal phrases that reinforce the group viewpoint?

Are doubts viewed as a lack of faith, dedication, commitment or disloyalty?

Have 'your thoughts' become 'the enemy?'

Does the prospect of leaving your group seem scary, difficult?

Do you feel the need to leave in secret?

Have you been told something bad might happen if you leave?

Does your group/belief system think they have/are the only or highest truth, or have the solution for the world’s problems?

Do you follow a particular individual or belief system that requires unquestioning obedience and loyalty?

Do members of your group feel specially chosen, superior, exclusive, elite?

Is your group secretive to outsiders about its inner workings, teachings, activities or beliefs?

Is communication within, into and out of your group controlled or censored in any manner?

Does your group criticize, shun, abandon or demean individuals who leave the group?

Do you feel pressured to give a portion of your income to the group, or spend money on courses, books or special projects?

Does your group have a totalitarian structure: a strict, top-down centralized control?

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Date: Wed, Dec 27, 2000 at 17:28:25 (GMT)
From: Tim G
Email: timgitti@indigo.ie
To: All
Subject: These are some great am-I-in-a-cult questions
Message:
Print them out and keep them handy. I certainly would have answered Yes to quite a few. I think EV is trying to sanitise itself a bit on the public front but the premies are still stuck in the same mindset.
I've ordered the book [my first experience with on-line ordering] and will report any juicy bits in due course.
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Date: Wed, Dec 27, 2000 at 17:25:01 (GMT)
From: cq
Email: None
To: Bazza
Subject: Sounds like he knows what he's talking about
Message:
From his website:

For fifteen years he (John D Goldhammer) was a member of a religious group that combined fundamentalist Christianity, Eastern mysticism, and New Age ideas. This church - the Ann Ree Colton Foundation of Niscience - was originally established 'to research philosophy, religion, science and the creative arts.'

He eventually found it necessary to terminate his association with the group due to their movement toward increasingly rigid and oppressive formats, rituals, and
mind-control techniques - away from an emphasis on research and study of different religions and philosophies.

The organization eventually deteriorated into a destructive, full-blown religious cult. John explains:


''We' became superior and exclusive. 'We' had knowledge others didn't have. Our terrorism was internal. Our
enemies were any thoughts or ideas questioning our leader's philosophy.

Any sparks of individuality were gradually extinguished - a sort of internal genocide. In a very subtle, gradual process, the 'group mind-set' assumed complete
control.

Fifteen years later, totally broke, angry, confused, after losing every shred of my integrity, feeling completely compromised and suicidal, I escaped from 'paradise.' Living through this experience, I spent the next five years extensively researching all types of groups to both understand myself and group dynamics that often lead to such deadly consequences, prompting my book, UNDER THE INFLUENCE.'

.
.
.

Hmmm, now I know what I should have bought for Xmas.

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Date: Wed, Dec 27, 2000 at 15:48:43 (GMT)
From: jondon
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: tv exposure??
Message:
Left NY early, could not get good coverage for sign. We will try again soon. But will not post, as I have been told that the Premies are monitoring this site. Now they are monitoring the tv shows. Hmmmm. Ok, let's try Oprah. Yeah, that's the ticket. I'm gonna be on the Oprah Winfrey Show with a Who Is Guru Maharaj ji T-Shirt. Yeah, that's the ticket. I'll be in the 3rd row from the back. Then it's on to Rickie Lake and Sallie Jessie Rafael. Then over to Days of Our Lives and Leeza. And don't forget to monitor the Jerry Springer show, 'I was a Teenage Guru'. Happy Holidays to all
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Date: Wed, Dec 27, 2000 at 20:16:18 (GMT)
From: Know It All
Email: None
To: jondon
Subject: tv exposure??
Message:
Great work jondon.

Now on to phase 2.

KIA

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Date: Wed, Dec 27, 2000 at 15:04:37 (GMT)
From: Nigel
Email: crayggie@hotmail.com
To: Everyone
Subject: Bad things happen - the Measure of a Master
Message:
When we hear someone referred to as a ‘Master’, we assume they have mastered something, that they have an expertise to share with lesser practitioners of their respective crafts. As with a master butcher, so with a master musician; as with a schoolmaster, so with a Kung Fu master etc.

And when, by chance, some dewy-eyed friend or stranger tells us in a hushed whisper: Maharaji is a master - The Master – we accept on trust an assumption of spiritual authority because we like what we are hearing and our naďve, uncynical hearts still have trust to invest. And when we learn He is the Living Master for The Age, come to save the planet, instead of counting his Rolls Royces, we count our blessings...

It is interesting to now watch premies wrestling with some uncomfortable facts and weighing new information against their concepts of what a Master might be. In a thread lower down an anonymous premie suggests that if Prem Rawat is a Perfect Master, then anyone who dares criticise is guilty of megalomania. Presumably because they criticized Jesus too, blah, blah… Absurd, of course, but almost understandable, remembering the scale of my own indoctrination and that of fellow-followers.

The belief that such thing as a ‘Master’ exists (by means unproven, possessing skills untested) stacks a heap of unearned credit into the account of anybody claiming the title. We give them the benefit of the doubt, just as Cambridge Professors gave Uri Geller the benefit of the doubt when he appeared to bend spoons with his mind. Worse, even when the doubts creep in, we have no yardstick of divinity for reassessing the Master’s worth, so we carry on giving the benefit of the doubt. (I can no more prove Maharaji isn’t the Lord than I can prove the non-existence of unicorns or Santa Claus.)

And for those of us brought up with the Beatles, the Mararishi and associated hippie shit, and progressing to Hess, Leary, Yogananda and others on the spiritual smorgasbord, giving benefit of the doubt to self-styled masters becomes pretty-well automatic. If a guy can sit lotus-legged in loincloth for twelve hours at a stretch without twitching a muscle, well who am I to insist his inner self hasn’t passed through the internal gates and merged with the infinite, or that his heart doesn’t dwell in Samadhi?

(Actually, sitting still in a lotus pose is no big deal among the poor in Asian countries, nor is wearing few clothes. I wonder how convinced we’d be by a well-dressed, white-skinned yogi who lay motionless in bed for similarly long time-stretch?)

But Maharaji never even affected these poses of oriental mysticism. His assurances of his special status were sufficient. And from the moment of placing him on that Krishna throne we downgraded our self-worth in inverse proportion.

Yet it is impossible to prove Maharaji isn’t the Lord, in spite of it all. So let’s, for argument’s sake, assume he is God in human form, and see where it goes. What kind of God are we dealing with?

In a recent radio interview Kurt Vonnegut outlined his best advice for would-be novelists, summing up his points in a short-list of essentials. One tip he offered was this:

Make bad things happen to your characters. In fact, he insisted, you should make terrible things happen to them, no matter how sweet, charming or lovable you have otherwise portrayed them. Because that is the only way see what they are made of. Simple as that. And he’s right.

And as true for God in Human Form as for anyone else…

So never mind that God drinks, smokes or takes drugs and shits in a golden pan. Never mind that his addresses are rambling and incoherent – that he can’t even finish a grammatical sentence. These may be off-putting factors for some, or merely foibles and eccentricities (Jesus spent time among thieves and prostitutes, remember). Lifestyle choices don’t necessarily get to the essential character of a man or woman, as evidenced by the number of premies fully aware of the above facts but who are happy to continue as devotees – as I was whilst still practicing back in the eighties.

No, let’s take Vonnegut’s advice and look at how our main character deals with the bad stuff so we can really see what he’s made of… Only recently have I learned how Maharaji handles the slings and arrows and have to say that even from this distance I have been almost shocked by what I’ve heard. Four examples will suffice:

1. God’s hand-picked devotee and instructor turns out to be serial child abuser…

God removes offender from scene, but continues to employ him. Fails to notify police either in the States or in India, effectively leaving him free to abuse. Fails to contact victims or offer apology or explanation.

2. God’s marriage hits a rough patch…

God asks devotee to arrange a series of discreet hotel-room ‘introductions’ with female devotees where he can show them God’s etchings before dumping them.

3. God’s wife appears to be flirting with somebody who isn’t God in a restaurant…

God dismisses chauffeur, storms out and drives home drunk, his car weaving all over the rode, God’s children in the back.

4. Cyclist pulls out in front of God’s limousine whilst God is driving. Cyclist dies…

God switches drivers and flees the scene.

Ok, since I can’t prove a negative, let Prem be God in Human Form, if that’s who he says he is - but if that’s God then God is an arsehole. If he came to me in a vision and revealed his powers and divine plan so that I had to believe, I would nonetheless spit in his face.

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Date: Sat, Dec 30, 2000 at 00:27:31 (GMT)
From: suchabandanna
Email: None
To: Nigel
Subject: progressing to 'Hess'? Sieg heil, bolie shri...(nt
Message:
Hesse
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Date: Wed, Dec 27, 2000 at 20:44:02 (GMT)
From: shp
Email: None
To: Nigel
Subject: Some thoughts about what you said, Nigel
Message:
Nigel,

I have been doing some thinking along the lines of your post for the last few days, and from the feedback so have others who post here. There is definitely something hanging in the air, so to speak.

I have spoken to some friends and acquaintances about this whole thing and have gotten some very different reponses. Shock was an obvious response from some people.

There were a very few who came back to me with a surprising response. They said in their opinion, a teacher of the esoteric leading to higher consciousness can have all sorts of worldly and screwed up problems, just like everyone else. One teacher was cited whose name I cannot recall. I was told this guy did many drugs, had a drinking problem, was bisexual, had AIDS, but had guided hundreds of thousands of students from around the world to a higher consciousness.

Personally, I don't get it. Consciousness to me is about living, not separate from day to day life. To say that someone can be very screwed up and still be focussed on what's important in the universe, this idea seems like a contradiction to me. But I have seen and heard stranger things than that, and so did Shakespeare.
I have a hard time buying into that scenario, but something tells me (not fear or anything like that) it's entirely possible in a world that has hurricanes blowing over some of the most beautiful inhabited islands on earth, regularly destroying human life, in a world that is inhabited by the duck-billed platypus and the scorpion, in a world that seems to be up for grabs to the bully with the biggest wallet, the most firepower and the best PR, in a world where everything seems to be upside down. This would fit the Kali-yuga scenario...what it must be like to live in an age of truth, where all is right side up!

You said:
'When we hear someone referred to as a ‘Master’, we assume they have mastered something, that they have an expertise to share with lesser practitioners of their respective crafts. As with a master butcher, so with a master musician; as with a schoolmaster, so with a Kung Fu master etc.'

I agree.

'And when, by chance, some dewy-eyed friend or stranger tells us in a hushed whisper: Maharaji is a master - The Master – we accept on trust an assumption of spiritual authority because we like what we are hearing and our naďve, uncynical hearts still have trust to invest. And when we learn He is the Living Master for The Age, come to save the planet, instead of counting his Rolls Royces, we count our blessings...'

Yes, we did.

'It is interesting to now watch premies wrestling with some uncomfortable facts and weighing new information against their concepts of what a Master might be.'

Interesting isn't the word.

'In a thread lower down an anonymous premie suggests that if Prem Rawat is a Perfect Master, then anyone who dares criticise is guilty of megalomania. Presumably because they criticized Jesus too, blah, blah… Absurd, of course, but almost understandable, remembering the scale of my own indoctrination and that of fellow-followers.'

The anonymous premie begins his/her suggestion with 'If'.
'If' is the word that the Great Illusionist used on Jesus in the wilderness to introduce his temptations. That anonymous premie should just go on and enjoy their life and not judge anyone else.
If that premie has a rock-solid faith, good for them.

'The belief that such thing as a ‘Master’ exists (by means unproven, possessing skills untested) stacks a heap of unearned credit into the account of anybody claiming the title. We give them the benefit of the doubt, just as Cambridge Professors gave Uri Geller the benefit of the doubt when he appeared to bend spoons with his mind. Worse, even when the doubts creep in, we have no yardstick of divinity for reassessing the Master’s worth, so we carry on giving the benefit of the doubt. (I can no more
prove Maharaji isn’t the Lord than I can prove the non-existence of unicorns or Santa Claus.)'

'And for those of us brought up with the Beatles, the Mararishi and associated hippie shit, and progressing to Hess, Leary, Yogananda and others on the spiritual smorgasbord, giving benefit of the doubt to self-styled masters becomes pretty-well
automatic. If a guy can sit lotus-legged in loincloth for twelve hours at a stretch without twitching a muscle, well who am I to insist his inner self hasn’t passed through the internal gates and merged with the infinite, or that his heart doesn’t dwell in Samadhi?'

Or at least his butt's asleep, or one or both of his legs...
Seriously, I understand and can relate to what you are saying here.

'(Actually, sitting still in a lotus pose is no big deal among the poor in Asian countries, nor is wearing few clothes. I wonder how convinced we’d be by a well-dressed, white-skinned yogi who lay motionless in bed for similarly long time-stretch?)'

The family of the well-dressed white skinned yogi would be calling doctors and specialists to come over and do all sorts of tests on him/her. Something must obviously be wrong.

'But Maharaji never even affected these poses of oriental mysticism. His assurances of his special status were sufficient. And from the moment of placing him on that Krishna throne we downgraded our self-worth in inverse proportion.'

Maybe that is how you see it now. But when we did that years ago we actually raised ourselves to a level of higher self-worth, either from his really being the Man or from our own Quixotic missionary zeal, which made us all fellow finders of truth.
The beauty of the moment was pure, and if we were fooled into it, then that is another moment to deal with. If someone has faith and is fooled, shame on the trickster, not on the believer.
But as always, buyer beware.

'Yet it is impossible to prove Maharaji isn’t the Lord, in spite of it all. So let’s, for argument’s sake, assume he is God in human form, and see where it goes. What kind of God are we dealing with?'

This is where I was at when I ran across your post. I was thinking of all the things that God 'allows' to happen which contribute to the pain and suffering of men, women and children all over the world. I mean, why make a beautiful string of tropical islands with great beaches and then have sharks and hurricanes come around and kill unsuspecting people? Why make beauty and underline it with danger and death?

'In a recent radio interview Kurt Vonnegut outlined his best advice for would-be novelists, summing up his points in a short-list of essentials. One tip he offered was this:

Make bad things happen to your characters. In fact, he insisted, you should make terrible things happen to them, no matter how sweet, charming or lovable you have otherwise portrayed them. Because that is the only way see what they are made of. Simple as that. And he’s right.'

'And as true for God in Human Form as for anyone else…

So never mind that God drinks, smokes or takes drugs and shits in a golden pan. Never mind that his addresses are rambling and incoherent – that he can’t even finish a grammatical sentence. These may be off-putting factors for some, or merely foibles and
eccentricities (Jesus spent time among thieves and prostitutes, remember). Lifestyle choices don’t necessarily get to the essential character of a man or woman, as evidenced by the number of premies fully aware of the above facts but who are happy to continue as devotees – as I was whilst still practicing back in the eighties.

No, let’s take Vonnegut’s advice and look at how our main character deals with the bad stuff so we can really see what he’s made of… Only recently have I learned how Maharaji handles the slings and arrows and have to say that even from this distance I
have been almost shocked by what I’ve heard. Four examples will suffice:

1. God’s hand-picked devotee and instructor turns out to be serial child abuser…
God removes offender from scene, but continues to employ him. Fails to notify police either in the States or in India, effectively leaving him free to abuse. Fails to contact victims or offer apology or explanation.

2. God’s marriage hits a rough patch…
God asks devotee to arrange a series of discreet hotel-room ‘introductions’ with female devotees where he can show them God’s etchings before dumping them.

3. God’s wife appears to be flirting with somebody who isn’t God in a restaurant…
God dismisses chauffeur, storms out and drives home drunk, his car weaving all over the road, God’s children in the back.

4. Cyclist pulls out in front of God’s limousine whilst God is driving.
Cyclist dies…God switches drivers and flees the scene.

Ok, since I can’t prove a negative, let Prem be God in Human Form, if that’s who he says he is - but if that’s God then God is an arsehole. If he came to me in a vision and revealed his powers and divine plan so that I had to believe, I would nonetheless spit in his face.'

I would not spit in his face. But I would definitely be having some very strong feelings. Your thesis that Maharaji could still be the Master of Knowledge and the one who's mission it is to mainstream it to humanity ('attention K-Mart shopper's, we have an instructor of Maharaji's on aisle 3 today from 10 am to noon')
I also happen to agree with that possibility, despite all the bad news and events in which he is involved.

The world is changing. It's going to hell in a handbasket politically, environmentally, spiritually, culturally, and pretty much in all other ways too. At the same time there are forces at work in most of these realms trying desparately to shore up the floodgates. Perhaps the 'Master of the Age' is just as screwed up as so many other people are, and in this 'all bets are off' atmosphere on earth now, most people don't give a shit. In the long run, what will most likely be remembered about Maharaji is his work to spread Knowledge, whatever else happens.

When I read about the kings and demigods of antiquity in different cultures, many of them had soap-opera lives, with lovers and jealousies and murderous plots and the whole nine yards. And they also had their duties and missions to perform, which they seemed to also do.

How I feel about it? Unnerved and tired right now. Maharaji's actions or lack thereof in the examples you gave above shake my hard fought and won Judeo-Christian value systems of right and wrong, good and bad to the point of feeling like I have to completely let go of either those values or Maharaji to stop the vibrations that are driving cracks into my thinking/feeling components. Talk to ya later.

Sandy

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Date: Thurs, Dec 28, 2000 at 18:16:46 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: shp
Subject: Why not put some weights on those speculations?
Message:
Shp,

You're right and, as many, including myself, have oft said, it's entirely possible that Maharaji is indeed a Vonneguttian 'Master' of a Vonneguttian universe. Indeed, why stop there? Perhaps The Sirens of Titan isn't fiction at all and the whole purpose of the world was to allow a stranded inter-galactic messenger send home for parts so he could carry on with his most important mission, to persoanlly deliver the most imporatant message ('hi') to some guys over on the other side of the universe. Possible? Of course.

But likely? I think not.

Occam's Razor, shp.

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Date: Fri, Dec 29, 2000 at 01:00:13 (GMT)
From: shp
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Occam's Razor or the hedgeclipper
Message:
The simplest path is easy to follow and discern let's say, if you are single and travelling around the world with your backpack and guitar with your favorite weathered black leather and hoofing it alot...very dashing and easy in and out of airports and all the other venues. But if you are travelling with little babies or kids or even with a high maintenence partner, not to mention anyone who wants to come along for the ride, it ain't so simple. Then there is quite alot more baggage and delay. Then you need a
goddam hedgeclipper to get through it all, a simple razor won't do. I don't know if I am coming across clear to you, but I understand what I am saying. It's been a long and arduous season. Please let me know if I was clear to you.

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Date: Fri, Dec 29, 2000 at 03:16:18 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: shp
Subject: Occam's Razor or the hedgeclipper
Message:
Sorry, shp, you lost me on this one.

I'm merely saying that this thing doesn't only look like a duck, walk like a duck and quack like a duck. If you listen carefully, it's actually saying 'I'm a duck! I'm a duck!'

Okay, my turn -- you follow ME?

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Date: Sat, Dec 30, 2000 at 00:50:09 (GMT)
From: shp
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Occam's Razor or the hedgeclipper
Message:
Jim,

I'm bushed, so to speak. Politically, physically and mentally.
The conversation took a turn with Occam, I took a hairpin curve with the hedgeclipper and it's gonna snow like hell up here in the NE USA tonight. I lost both of us back there, but somehow it isn't as important as it used to be to cover each and every detail of the discourse. I have tried to sort it out below. See what you make of it.

Let's just suffice it to say that you advised me to consider Occam's Razor as a means of weighing the stuff with Maharaji,
I added that simplicity becomes less easy with the addition of more movable parts, and I was suggesting that a global mission has alot of movable parts and must be hard to simplify. Since it includes anyone and everyone of the planet who wants to check it out, the parameters of mental, intellectual, moral and all other human attributes becomes huge and unwieldy. This was not presented as a defense, but as an observation. Perhaps because of this, a Vonnegutian universe is exactly what we live in, with all the abrupt changes going on in all realms and shaking the foundations of all institutions which very much impacts on all of us, especially the kids, the next generation to rule.

I understand what you mean about the duck. But just to play the devil's advocate (just a figure of speech...) I know that India is not the USA and also read that BBJ gave M alot of flak over there legally. So perhaps in the eyes of the ones who pulled this switcheroo with the vehicular manslaughter, they were acting in a paradigm that dictated it was OK to do what they did. In order to even entertain this idea - not even to agree or disagree with it, but just to entertain it - requires the temporary suspension of one's own values. I have no doubt that Randy and the others thought they were serving the Lord when they changed cars. Their intent was cool, but if it was me there, I THINK I would have had a very serious life altering experience that would have required me to seek God elsewhere.

Better?

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Date: Sat, Dec 30, 2000 at 03:42:18 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: shp
Subject: But, shp, what about the other 'perhaps' s?
Message:
Perhaps because of this, a Vonnegutian universe is exactly what we live in, with all the abrupt changes going on in all realms and shaking the foundations of all institutions which very much impacts on all of us, especially the kids, the next generation to rule.

This is what I was criticizing you for before I took a break. You keep talking about these faint possibilites but what about all the other more likely alternatives? I mean, shp, if you're not careful you could spend the rest of your life doing this. Balance it out, why don't you. If you feel it's important to muse aloud that 'perhaps in the eyes of the ones who pulled this switcheroo with the vehicular manslaughter, they were acting in a paradigm that dictated it was OK to do what they did' don't you think it'd be a lot fuller and more balanced to place this possibility in some greater context?

Yes, for sure, that's a possibility. But it's so amazingly unlikely that it's really not worth mentioning. And to mention it without citing it's trifling likelihood is misleading, to you and anyone you're talking to. After all, people don't usually mention possibilities unless they think they're really worth considering. It's not as if we're a bunch of grade four kids practising brainstorming ('Now class, I want you to think of all the many things you can do with a cat. It doesn't matter how silly your idea might be, the purpose of the exercise is to just let your imagination run wild. So let's see how many things we can come up with.'). We're trying to determine the truth here. All speculation, I would think, should be directed to that end.

Capiche?

In this case, I can tell you, it is almost unfathomable that even in India there exists some 'paradigm' that condones Maharaji's actions in this matter. Now, again, I won't say that it's impossible. I'm no Indian lawyer, after all. Maybe, maybe, maybe. But it's so damned unlikely one does have to wonder why you'd even mention it.

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Date: Sat, Dec 30, 2000 at 07:51:01 (GMT)
From: shp
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Why I'd even mention it...
Message:
In the land of Krishna, who allegedly told Arjuna long ago in another Kali Yuga, to go ahead and kill everyone because they were dead anyway, to switch drivers to protect one's master does not sound like something so terrible....even though it may sound terrible to you and to me.

This isn't about how many things one can do with a cat. Please don't get patronizing and condescending. You ask why do I entertain such thoughts and I can say chill and live your life and don't presume to know why or how others live theirs. Each of us has to be at peace with ourselves on our own terms, not yours or mine.

There is so much shit happening in the world today one can go crazy trying to sort it all out. If you have an opinion or a stand on something, great. If it resonates truth to me you don't have to sell it to me.

I think you want me to become as outspoken as you are and behave as you do and say regarding Maharaji. That is not the measure of who I am or what I believe. We all manifest differently. All I can say is that I felt like I was in an Orwell excerpt from '1984' when I read the EV FAQ's and some of the 'history'.
That's not what I remember. That's not what happened. That's not how it went down. But I am smart enough to know a good pr machine when I get run over by it, and I am also smart enough to know how the chi moves, regardless of the concepts of right and wrong.

Look at the US elections. Everybody knew what was going down and it went down anyway. Usurpation took place by right of nothing more than bravado, posing and general public apathy. And the 'American people' accepted it, because they were getting bored and uptight since the average span of attention of the average American is about as long as a sitcom and this mess was taking way too long and making everybody's head hurt from concentrating on one thing way too long, you know? If Thomas Jefferson were still alive (and I know he was no saint), he would either be organizing in the streets for revolution, be a wanted man, in jail or already politically dealt with, with 'extreme prejudice'. This is what our world has come to.

As for me, I continue to seek the 'reconstruction crews' as I have done my whole adult life, to ally myself with those who will be around after the old system topples over from its own topheaviness, and to participate in the rebuilding of society in the way of harmony with humanity and nature.

Western Canada must be nice. I hope to see it someday.

Take care,

Sandy

I just saw the movie 'Magnolia'. I recommend it highly.
Some of it pertains to our conversation here in broad strokes.

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Date: Sat, Dec 30, 2000 at 21:41:03 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: shp
Subject: Goddamit, shp!
Message:
In the land of Krishna, who allegedly told Arjuna long ago in another Kali Yuga, to go ahead and kill everyone because they were dead anyway, to switch drivers to protect one's master does not sound like something so terrible....even though it may sound terrible to you and to me.

This is such nonsense and you know it. Are you actually saying that you think that Indian socity or the the Indian legal system might possibly condone fatal hit and runs and obstruction of justice? That's absurd.

But, then, even if you DID think this was a possibility, the question remains, how likely is it? And what about all the alternative explanations, especially, of course, the ones that have much greater likelihood? That is what I'm trying to ask you about.

I'm sorry, shp, but for all the talk about how 'brave' you are and everything, all the good will exes are willing to extend you here, you seem to be as evasive as ever. Is ther esomething about my question that offends you? Is there something about being asked why you'd mention a possibility that really, in borad daylight, might warrant, say .00005 per cent faith without discussing all the other possibilities that are exceedingly more likely? Because that's the question I've been trying to ask you which you've neve answered.

But what's your answer when I do?:

This isn't about how many things one can do with a cat. Please don't get patronizing and condescending. You ask why do I entertain such thoughts and I can say chill and live your life and don't presume to know why or how others live theirs. Each of us has to be at peace with ourselves on our own terms, not yours or mine.

Well, the cat example was called an 'analogy'. Sorry you didn't see the parallel. You're more than willing to spout some bullshit about Arjuna and the racetrack. That's perfectly relevant, I'm sure, but when I resort to an analogy you somehow don't get it. Hm, I wonder.

And you can fuck off with the rest of your sentiment aboe too. What a new-age pompous way of saying that you don't want to answer the question. Try to put it on me that I'm somehow bulldozing over your natural boundaires by asking you to explain yourself. I don't know, shp. For all the earnest support you get here (shp, you're a good man', 'shp, you're a brave man') you seem like you're every bit as evasive as ever.

My question was a good, honest and reasonable one. How dare you try to blame me for asking it! How would you like it if Dettmers, for example, answered your own questions like that? You wouldn't. Don't play games.

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Date: Sun, Dec 31, 2000 at 04:05:33 (GMT)
From: shp
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Dammit, Jim, I'm only a doctor!(Just had to say)
Message:
You asked for that one.
I don't solicit any compliments or insults here.
Seems I don't pass YOUR muster, so it's back to the old shit?
No way.

What I am saying and thought I already implied is that whatever I believe does not mean a hoot to anyone else but me, and anyone who happens to resonate at the same frequency on the same subject, and same goes for you and everyone else too.

I personally think what happened on the road in India that day was downright terrible based on what I think is right action even for a Buddha, who is the epitome and embodiment of all the noble truths including right action. I also believe that there is great change afoot and I cannot say with certainty that there cannot be a master of Knowledge who also has done some very strange and unethical things to the point of vehicular manslaughter. Forget good and bad, we are way beyond that continuum. Personally, it totally repulses me.

I look at being a parent as a reflection of the relationship of the Creator to human beings, as above, so below, etc. Not a power trip, but a similar feeling shared by many parents I have spoken to...being a person who is trying to be a conscious parent
brings one closer to God. If I ever did something that was an accident but was not very pretty, I would never hide it because I know that all secrets are revealed. I would rather tell my sons up front what happened rather than hear it from another source and discover that I had lied to them to save face or for convenience. It would be the antithesis of what I am trying to teach them as responsible young men. Opposite of the way of the world. Maybe I'm the fool, who knows. But as of this writing I'd rather be a fool.

Does this fire up your dilithium crystals, Jim?

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Date: Sat, Dec 30, 2000 at 21:58:53 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: P.S.
Message:
Magnolia was a great movie with a completely bullshit ending. The relevance here escapes me.
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Date: Sun, Dec 31, 2000 at 18:08:35 (GMT)
From: Nigel
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Magnolia...
Message:
Me and TD watched Magnolia on vid today. Shit, it goes on forever - but what an all-consuming experience. Great movie. Can't say whether or not the end was any good - we had to get the video back to the shop prior to new years eve festivities...

(hic - hope yours was as good as mine!)

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Date: Fri, Dec 29, 2000 at 01:06:03 (GMT)
From: ham
Email: None
To: shp
Subject: Even more reason for Occams Razor I reckon,
Message:
when you're loaded with baggage, even more need to keep it simple.

So says hamzen, the basho poetry lover

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Date: Fri, Dec 29, 2000 at 01:16:05 (GMT)
From: shp
Email: None
To: ham
Subject: Even more reason for Occams Razor I reckon,
Message:
True, but have you ever travelled with babies in planes across country? You can only get it so simple and then there's the walker and the diaper bags and the toys and the...

Hey we are almost doing real time here.

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Date: Fri, Dec 29, 2000 at 01:28:22 (GMT)
From: hamzen
Email: None
To: shp
Subject: How old are your nippers then?
Message:
By the way shp, a couple of your posts have been really impressive recently, like you're coming in to land, and very eloquent.

And now only teasing,well 50/50, I reckon if you could let the god wings go you'd be sailing under your own sails as free as, as, oh shit can't think of anything but the old cliche, free as a bird.

Admire your courage, know it can't have been an easy ride the last coupla years,
but alongside the scary side of it all just know you must be starting to feel the baggage lightening and the sense of freedom, which doesn't mean no values, I'm sure you know what I'm saying

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Date: Sat, Dec 30, 2000 at 01:00:53 (GMT)
From: shp
Email: None
To: hamzen
Subject: How old are your nippers then?
Message:
'By the way shp, a couple of your posts have been really impressive recently, like you're coming in to land, and very eloquent.' -ham

Love makes poets of us all. -shp

'And now only teasing,well 50/50, I reckon if you could let the god wings go you'd be sailing under your own sails as free as, as, oh shit can't think of anything but the old cliche, free as a bird.' -ham

Please explain 'let the god wings go'... -shp

'Admire your courage, know it can't have been an easy ride the last coupla years, but alongside the scary side of it all just know you must be starting to feel the baggage lightening and the sense of freedom, which doesn't mean no values, I'm sure you know
what I'm saying.' -ham

Ham, please post your e-mail. I know what you are saying, but if this was a cocktail party, now would be the time we'd find a couple of easy chairs, take our drinks and go hang out in a nice quiet corner and talk. (No, I'm not hitting on you. Men talk too, not just women.) And since it's close to New Year's, let's have a private chat. I'd like to share some things off-line.

(No offense to the rest of yas...!)

The nippers are 12-1/2 and 16-1/2. We took them to California in 1989 when they were only about 1 and 5. What a trip!

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Date: Sat, Dec 30, 2000 at 02:45:53 (GMT)
From: hamzen
Email: ham@hamzen.freeserve.co.uk
To: shp
Subject: As requested shp, no sweat
Message:
Re god wings, just referring to seeing god as a seperate entity, instead of everybody/everything all being it. Personally I always had problems with the god concept, but experiences I've had have let me see how some people could jump to that one. I see the concept as a bag for stuff people find too overpowering, not able to conceptualize about etc, and also as a way of avoiding responsibility for self as godhead, either thru fear of being overwhelmed, or fear of losing those 'feelings' through a lack of humility.

In an article I saw on the magnet over brain experiement, producing experiences of god even for atheists, one fella didn't think the presence he felt was a seperate entity, he thought he was experiencing himself so stretched he was seeing himself race ahead, which for some reason reminds me of descriptions I've read about dmt and hearing a sound like powerfully and quickly stretched plastic, as though the fabric of reality was being stretched. Then we have dmt in our bodies produced naturally, a drug that produces white light, an experience of cosmic love, universal sounds etc etc. This all links in with the god wings comment.

My theory for what it's worth is that when those chemicals get activated sensitivity levels get so accentuated, as though everything is suddenly massively magnified, and the only way our brains can cope, make sense of, is to posit some other, seperate presence, whereas if we could find the courage to go past that barrier we'd just see a different scale, an expanded reality model. After all the normalcy of what we call reality is dependent on certain chemicals, alter just one hormone and reality changes drastically, so what would increased dmt, or serotonin levels (serotonin is almost identical to ecstacy and THE key nerve cell chemical), or melatonin (pineal gland), almost identical to mescalin, blah de blah, you get the drift.

Even if you were coming on I wouldn't have a problem, I can be a terrible flirt meself with both sexes and I'm strictly hetero, well so far, so no sweat yeah.

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Date: Sat, Dec 30, 2000 at 08:08:13 (GMT)
From: shp
Email: None
To: hamzen
Subject: The 'businessman's lunch' and all that...
Message:
I'm aware of the brain's chemicals being the originals, and acid, ectasy, dmt (also called 'businessman's lunch due to the 20 minute trip) and many others being surrogates and catalysts for us to feel something of what it must have been like on the plains of Africa 15,000 years ago with the mushroom mother of us all, as Terrence McKenna used to put it, rest and bless his soul.

I think God is in each of us, all of us collectively, and capable of manifesting any way it wants to or needs to in order to make contact with a particle of its creation (us) who is crying out for the experience of contact and love, just like a baby in a crib who really needs to feel its parents or its guardians.

I am getting involved with the Nikken company soon. They deal in magnets bigtime. I am going to ask someone in the group about this phenomenon, if he has heard anything about it.

I looked for my God, and God I could not see.
I looked for my soul, it was nowhere to be.
I looked for my brother and found all three.

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Date: Thurs, Dec 28, 2000 at 22:58:33 (GMT)
From: shp
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Season's Greeting's, Jim
Message:
So John Lennon's lyrics may well be the gospel after all:

'Whatever gets you through the night is alright, is alright.'

And each of us must face the Mirror and be able to really fully smile at and be at peace with that face in the reflection and what is behind it - and I don't mean the medicine chest - no matter what anyone else thinks or says.

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Date: Wed, Dec 27, 2000 at 17:23:49 (GMT)
From: Helen
Email: None
To: Nigel
Subject: Bad things happen - the Measure of a Master
Message:
Excellent post Nigel!!! And excellent line of argument.

Conflict is the true test of character. I read somewhere that when writing a romance novel, one should not only get one's protagonist up a tree but then throw rocks at her (metaphorically speaking). Only then can the reader see the heroine's true mettle. The only kind of character M can be according to these writing conventions could be the worst sort of petty minded, pathetic villian, the type of little man everyone loves to see get his in the end. And it's actually happening in our true life unfolding story, he is getting his, and it's pretty exhilirating!

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Date: Wed, Dec 27, 2000 at 16:36:00 (GMT)
From: Tim G
Email: timgitti@indigo.ie
To: Nigel
Subject: Bad things happen - the Measure of a Master
Message:
Superb Post, Nigel...it's hard to see how a 'practising' premie can overlook such logic.

When asked if I am 'practising' I usually respond.'No, I've got the hang of it now'.

Footnote: In China they used to call criminals 'Teachers by negative example'.

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Date: Wed, Dec 27, 2000 at 16:22:09 (GMT)
From: New-Age Redneck
Email: None
To: Nigel
Subject: As usual.....
Message:
Nigel, solid and superb..... as usual!

Geez, I go away for a while and come back to find that my lard and scheister killed someone and ran-away. And I thought the Jagdeo incident(s) was/were serious. Any last vestige of a claim to moral authority just went out the window, now didn't it?

Ok, back into the shadows for me :-)

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Date: Wed, Dec 27, 2000 at 15:42:57 (GMT)
From: Scott T.
Email: None
To: Nigel
Subject: Bad things happen - the Measure of a Master
Message:
Nigel:

Thanks. Essentially what I've been saying for a long time. If Maharaji is God then it's just as reasonable as proposing that Jon Benet Ramsey was killed in self-defense. The Universe *could* be that perverse, but I choose to believe otherwise.

--Scott

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Date: Wed, Dec 27, 2000 at 16:37:23 (GMT)
From: ham
Email: None
To: Scott T.
Subject: And if the universe was that perverse,
Message:
and he is the master,
then it's time to fight god.

Also he's so useless at his job that no-ones left, and nobodies interested in joining, so he's incompetent too.

Maybe it's all his lila, so we can finally realize god by letting go of the master.
Maybe by driving everyone away, he's showing his compassion because us dorks would never leave.

His compassion is overpowering.

No wonder anyone who leaves has rotting vegetables to sort out, if our logic was any more contorted we'd all have ended up in institutions or or...

And then I remember all the suicides exactly because of all this illogic.

Nuff said.

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Date: Wed, Dec 27, 2000 at 17:36:56 (GMT)
From: New-Age Redneck
Email: None
To: ham
Subject: Hammy, hammy, hammy
Message:
Ham, I only have one rhetorical question to ask (rhetorical because I know that no living premie will even attempt an answer):

'WHO says' that 'god' is illogical anyway? I mean, let's look at this somewhat 'logically.' The entire known universe obeys a set of laws that 'god' was supposed to have put in place. We've spent eons trying to learn all we can about those laws and how they work/interact. It's pretty amazing stuff, actually. The deeper we look, the simpler it all becomes. Atoms, subatomic particales, quarks.... simple and LOGICAL behavior. It doesn't become less logical, it becomes MORE LOGICAL (and believable/understandable, too!)........

NOW, comes these morons that insist that 'god' is some supreme being totally devoid of any logic and, thus, cannot possibly be understood using logic/intelligence or by examining the very same laws that this supposed being put into place in the first place...... Sorry, but that just doesn't make any sense, at all.

WHO SAYS you can't use your brain to discover whether there is a 'god' or not? WE KNOW WHO...... The men-who-would-be gods, because they haven't got the slightest inkling of a notion as to how this all works (the universe, that is). Since they can't explain the first thing about 'creation,' the only method they can employ to make themselves seem superior is by saying that 'god' is totally 'different' from the very logical universe that he/she/it created and thus cannot possibly be understood by the very mind/intelligence/brain that he/she/it created. What a line of crap!

I have a question: Why is it that these men-who-would-be-greater-than-god can't explain the first thing about genetics, astonomy, chemistry, physics, evolution or anything else that they supposedly 'created?' I KNOW, I KNOW.... it isn't really important and we shouldn't waste god's time asking these very natural questions that spring forth from the very thing that was put in place to formulate them (e.g. the BRAIN!)

Ok, back into my den of iniquity....... with a glass of holiday port and a fine H. Upmann Robusto.... :-)

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Date: Sat, Dec 30, 2000 at 20:50:03 (GMT)
From: Scott T.
Email: None
To: New-Age Redneck
Subject: Hammy, hammy, hammy
Message:
Red:

'WHO says' that 'god' is illogical anyway? I mean, let's look at this somewhat 'logically.' The entire known universe obeys a set of laws that 'god' was supposed to have put in place. We've spent eons trying to learn all we can about those laws and how they work/interact. It's pretty amazing stuff, actually. The deeper we look, the simpler it all becomes. Atoms, subatomic particales, quarks.... simple and LOGICAL behavior. It doesn't become less logical, it becomes MORE LOGICAL (and believable/understandable, too!)........

Two problems, the first is somewhat generic while the second is more specific.

1. I think we seem to be uncovering more and more resolution or detail about the universe, but that represents it's own sort of problem. We know, for instance, that the process of resolving the basic nature and components of matter can't end with matter. If it did it would always suggest further resolution and subdivision. So the very issue of resolution is a part of the 'logical' structure of universe, with which we have not yet dealt in a systematic way. It remains completely unresolved. We just avoid it.

2. We make judgments about the logical behavior of individuals based upon the degree to which that behavior serves self interest and self preservation. Since God has no self interest, or impulse to self preservation, then his behavior (or lack of it) is difficult to judge from a logical perspective. This is why we have approximately zero insight into the nature of God, or what that nature might motivate such a being to do in order to remain consistent.

While this is a *real* handicap, I don't think it's particularly important when when it comes to invididuals like Maharaji. The mere fact that they are so consistently self interested serves as a red flag. Maharaji's behavior doesn't violate logic in any way, and we have a consistent and perfectly adequate explanation for what he does. There is not even a whiff of god-like behavior to worry about.

--Scott

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Date: Thurs, Dec 28, 2000 at 21:18:37 (GMT)
From: Robyn
Email: None
To: New-Age Redneck
Subject: Hammy, hammy, hammy
Message:
Dear Redneck,
If you are a reincarnation of someone else and who I think/hope it is, Welcome back! :) You've been missed. :)
Love,
Robyn
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Date: Thurs, Dec 28, 2000 at 21:41:12 (GMT)
From: ham
Email: None
To: Robyn
Subject: I'll second that BIGTIME (nt)
Message:
a
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Date: Wed, Dec 27, 2000 at 23:13:02 (GMT)
From: born again pagan
Email: None
To: New-Age Redneck
Subject: Don't start nuthin, Redneck
Message:
Hey NA RED,with those strong arms of yourn' dint you used ta throw javelin?
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Date: Wed, Dec 27, 2000 at 19:33:11 (GMT)
From: Steve Quint
Email: the_avenger55@hotmail.com
To: New-Age Redneck
Subject: That Was Good - Do I Know You?
Message:
I was just thinking the same thing. Well put.

Steve

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Date: Wed, Dec 27, 2000 at 17:27:31 (GMT)
From: Helen
Email: None
To: ham
Subject: And if the universe was that perverse,
Message:
'if our logic was any more contorted' then....
excellent post, hammie.
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Date: Wed, Dec 27, 2000 at 15:15:00 (GMT)
From: bazza
Email: None
To: Nigel
Subject: hey I just emailed you!! nt
Message:
nt
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Date: Wed, Dec 27, 2000 at 13:51:30 (GMT)
From: Tim G
Email: timgitti@indigo.ie
To: Everyone
Subject: Hitting where it hurts
Message:
Happy Holidays everyone

Feeling militant after the break and am mulling over what Bazza,Steve Q, and Patrick had been discussing below : namely an ad in the paper most local to Mr. Rawat's HQ/Home.

What about a well drafted open letter to Mr.Rawat putting some of those Questions about the accident, the Mahatma abuse, the financial and psycholgical abuse, the cultic nature of his operations and the Messianic claims....plus other aspects of his operation. This to be placed probably in a Malibu rag. I would humbly suggest the Marianne might be great at drafting it with some input from all of us. How about it Marianne, when you are over here in Ireland soon?

I, for one, would be happy to contribute some funds to this end.

The letter could invite a debate in the pages of the newspaper about their local cult leader and also maybe a wider debate on the subject.

Hit them where it hurts says I.

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Date: Thurs, Dec 28, 2000 at 11:07:11 (GMT)
From: janet
Email: None
To: Tim G
Subject: forget malibu-use the los angeles times
Message:
put the ad there. then get the New Times to do the full expose
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Date: Wed, Dec 27, 2000 at 19:58:24 (GMT)
From: Marianne
Email: MarianneDB@aol.com
To: Tim G
Subject: Hitting where it hurts
Message:
Hi Tim. Email me about your proposal. I'd be happy to participate but I'd much rather discuss this offline, for all the reasons the MRC member below mentioned.

And, I'll see you soon! I'm really looking forward to getting back to Cork next week. Right now, I have a lot to do before I leave.

Marianne

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Date: Wed, Dec 27, 2000 at 16:57:24 (GMT)
From: (one of the)MRC
Email: None
To: Tim G
Subject: Hitting where it hurts/good idea!!!
Message:
Tim G-

As one of the original MRC participants, I think this would be a good idea, and this might be a good time to do it.

I think a local malibu rag would be the best, and a local australian rag near amaroo would be my 2nd choice...(or do both)..

You don't have to publish the entire letter in the paper, but perhaps a 'teaser' add would be enough, with web sites that people could go to...to your letter and and oher letters and this site and links as well...

Before you go too much farther, you might consider a way to proceed off line...better to surprise m and the premies rather than tip him off in advance, so that he and the pr team cannot 'inoculate' themselves (he's good at this, or at least appears to be good, until you look at him from an honest perspective, and then it looks really pathetic)...

I think the MRC letter, especially placed in a newspaper before a program, was highly effective...immediately after it ran, the ev site had a bunch of faq's in response...(of course,they did not mention the MRC letter, but it did contain references to many of the q's that we brought up)...

A quarter page or one eighth page add would not cost more than a couple of hundred bucks, and would be reprinted here or somewhere on the web forever...I don't think it would be hard to collect the money, but would also recommend doing it off line...

Good luck, have fun!

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Date: Thurs, Dec 28, 2000 at 03:44:01 (GMT)
From: (one of the) MRC
Email: None
To: (one of the)MRC
Subject: Hitting where it hurts/good idea!!!,plus...
Message:
another thought: it might be good to come up with another name, independent of the MRC...also, it might be good to include a premie, or say that some of you are recent exes (due to this site?)....I think that makes it more effective...also, by coming from another group different from the MRC, it shows him that there are more than one group in one place who want some answers...

good luck!

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Date: Thurs, Dec 28, 2000 at 03:37:03 (GMT)
From: Owl
Email: None
To: (one of the)MRC
Subject: Hitting where it hurts/good idea!!!
Message:
YES............


And as you said: 'You don't have to publish the entire letter in the paper, but perhaps a 'teaser' add would be enough, with web sites that people could go to...to your letter and and oher letters and this site and links as well...'

Thank you,

Owl

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Date: Thurs, Dec 28, 2000 at 04:05:43 (GMT)
From: (one of the) MRC
Email: None
To: Owl
Subject: Hitting where it hurts/good idea!!!/TEASER
Message:
OWL-regarding the teaser add, it would probably be more effective to have a really catchy teaser, rather than a letter, which some people might find boring.
With the teaser, you also get people coming to this site and other sites as well (in addition to the letter itself)...
In the boston MRC letter, there was on old picture of maharaji from the 70's, with a caption under it...
I'm not sure if the picture can be scanned onto this site, but it would be worth looking at...

I think malibu would be excellent, as it will reach neighbors, local premies,businesses, friends etc...

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Date: Thurs, Dec 28, 2000 at 04:40:57 (GMT)
From: Owl
Email: None
To: (one of the) MRC
Subject: Hitting where it hurts/good idea!!!/TEASER
Message:
Hmmmm....

Please excuse this if it is not what you think would be usable, Here goes:

As a {TEASER} you might show, (under fair use) an Ad from the News Paper of the Miami Herald, Sunday, April 8, 1979, in which on page 3-B it shows an approximately 2' x 2' picture of (M) over which says: 'I declare I will establish peace in this world.' - Guru Maharaj Ji

And then under that picture it say: Free public program on the knowledge revealed by Guru Maharaj Ji.

This could be followed by a, WHERE IS THIS PERSON NOW WHO HAS CHANGED HIS NAME AND HIS THING CALLED KNOWLEDGE?

YOU CAN FIND OUT BY GOING TO www.*******.com

Please, all media requests for further information please also go to www.*******.com and from there you will find e-mail links and other links. THIS IS YEAR 2001, AND A NEW TIME FOR ALL!

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Date: Wed, Dec 27, 2000 at 17:19:54 (GMT)
From: Tim G
Email: theusual
To: (one of the)MRC
Subject: Hitting where it hurts/good idea!!!
Message:
Thanx for that.I'll start working on it Off-Line.
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Date: Wed, Dec 27, 2000 at 17:36:29 (GMT)
From: Helen
Email: None
To: Tim G
Subject: Hitting where it hurts/good idea!!!
Message:
Tim can you email me? HelenRDC@aol.com
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Date: Thurs, Dec 28, 2000 at 04:31:37 (GMT)
From: C.G.
Email: None
To: Helen
Subject: Hitting where it hurts/good idea!!!
Message:
Great idea!

C.G.

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Date: Wed, Dec 27, 2000 at 13:14:26 (GMT)
From: eagle
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: fibromyalgia and other premie pains
Message:



Hi, I'm personally interested in the fibromyalgia posts that were in the skullcap thread earlier. Also in any other health conditions and problems that ex's think may have been caused or aggravated by techniques, such as neck pain, etc. I thought best to start a new thread, as that stuff was buried in an OT thread with different topic.
I'm also interested in 'writing out of the box' (-;
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Date: Wed, Dec 27, 2000 at 17:14:03 (GMT)
From: Helen
Email: None
To: eagle
Subject: fibromyalgia and other premie pains
Message:
Hi Eagle,
Disculta, bill, and Stonor and I have discussed this quite a bit over the years. Disculta and I both feel that in our own cases, the premie trip was about 'overriding' the mind and body. After all, the 'mind' was evil and our bodies were only temporal packages for our souls to worship Maharaji. Years of this kind of stress to the body and mind-- doing service night and day at festivals, suppressing feelings of grief and distress and doubt, etc. creates a chronically stressed state of the body. In fact, I believe that for some people, years of this kind of stress resulted in the mind and body actually splitting off from one another.

When I look back on it, it seems strange to acknowledge how stressful it was. I was living a big lie, lying that all was wonderful when it was terrible. The thing is, the body doesn't lie. The body knows just what the real deal is. My body knew it was in big trouble, in fact knew its very safety was threatened.

It's interesting what you say about neck problems and other aches and pains due to sitting for long hours in meditation. No doubt that could become a chronic problem. When I was an aspirant I sat in bloody satsang for 2 years. I was the worst aspirant on earth I guess, never good enough to get the knowledge. My body was saying 'let's get the hell out of here' but I remained in those aspirant satsangs to get the carrot that was being dangled on the string. Again my mind and body were at cross purposes which resulted in bodily stress and pain.

We were conditioned not to trust ourselves. How dangerous is that? The process turned us into these sheep that could only follow one narrow set of steps. Like marbles in a pin ball machine, following a set of routines in order to get the prize--a sensation of bliss. B.F. Skinner would love to study us I am sure. We were trained/conditioned to peck for the pellets and we did. At a great price too.

The way back is not easy but there is hope!! But it sort of involves rewiring one's self!

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Date: Thurs, Dec 28, 2000 at 20:36:28 (GMT)
From: Disculta
Email: None
To: Helen
Subject: Ouch, yawn, ouch
Message:
Yes, I'd love to really expand on this discussion. I tried to repost my late post aabout all this which dropped into the inactive index, but can't figure how to do it on my hubsnd's IBM.

There were certain aspects of cult-think that are identical to the fairly well-documented beliefs that tend to accompany CFS/fibromyalgia/MCS. The combination of a tendency in this direction plus the MJ programming nearly done me in! It did do some people in. This is the piece that I am still unravelling.

If anyone is interested, my post is far, far below, with some of the treatments that have helped me, but I am especially interested in a discussion of the cultic connections to these complex immune disorders, and very interested in forming a mini-ex-premie-physically-challenged support group. Are you there, Joy, Sir Dave, who else? Maybe an e-mail group?

Love Disculta

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Date: Thurs, Dec 28, 2000 at 23:01:05 (GMT)
From: Helen
Email: None
To: Disculta
Subject: Ouch, yawn, ouch
Message:
SOmetimes I have to careful not to talk about this stuff too much. After awhile it becomes like some epic story--the epic story of 'my life' . I was born into an alcoholic family, joined a cult, then got a chronic illness, blah blah blah. The problem with creating an epic is it becomes a stagnant scrpt, you know? It's as if I am predestined to have this chronic illness and then that's that instead of looking ahead to all of life's possibilities. the other problem with the whole 'epic of my fucked up life' is I forget that other people have problems, they have their story too. I think this is probably what you were talking about when you mentioned the subtle victim stance people can get into. The victim stance only adds to the whole pain cycle I am sure. I prefer to talk about it sporadically for this reason and not define myself as physically challenged/disabled. it's a fine line between acknowledging 'what is' and making a life epic out of it, isn't it?
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Date: Fri, Dec 29, 2000 at 01:37:59 (GMT)
From: Disculta
Email: None
To: Helen
Subject: Ouch, yawn, ouch
Message:
Yeahh - I know what you mean Helen.

I'm in this whole new place about it - really intending to put more of my attention on health than illness. I would never participate in an endless, epic support group about these illnesses because of what you say. It could become more of an identity than it perhaps already is. I find it to be a fine line meself. To a certain point, if i give it (the illness) the right sort of attention, it aids in unravelling it. Beyond that point, it perpetuates it. I guess what I'm looking for is a very deep communication about the illness/premie thing. There is some connection that I either haven't yet made, which I feel will help the unravelling into health, OR I have made it intellectually and I am looking to integrate it in emotions and body.

Something, perhaps, as simple as this: 'My life is for myself. And i really, really was programmed to believe otherwise, and act otherwise. And that was enough to make me ill. And I can really, really let go of this core belief now, and any associated energy where some part of myself is attacking some other part, inside'

Can anyone relate?

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Date: Fri, Dec 29, 2000 at 03:51:38 (GMT)
From: Helen
Email: None
To: Disculta
Subject: Ouch, yawn, ouch
Message:
Hi Disculta
Bingo! I agree that core beliefs are often at the root of chronic health conditions. It can be an inchoate core belief, not even with words, but a general energetic feeling such as a loss of hope. Or a loss of ones's dreams. After all, our dreams energize us to LIVE. And hope energizes us to LIVE and have so much to look forward to.

I also wanted to reiterate something you said in an earlier thread about digestion as an important part of all of this. I am definitely slow to digest food, and probably have some food allergies that causing some of that. Alot of arthritic, inflammatory conditions do seem to be exacerbated by slow digestion.

Okay, enough talk about ailments for now. Little Yiddish Grandma would say, 'Oy, I have hemmoroids older than you! Eat some prunes and be glad you can still walk!' Maybe you and I should go into practice together! Disculta and Helen's chronic pain clinic. 'The wounded physician is the one who can heal'--Carl Jung

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Date: Fri, Dec 29, 2000 at 07:42:59 (GMT)
From: Joy
Email: joy52@earthlink.net
To: Helen
Subject: Ouch, yawn, ouch
Message:
Hi Helen and Disculta,

I would certainly welcome some sort of space for those of us with chronic physical illnesses to communicate. Short of our own forum, what about those kinds of newsgroups where everyone e-mails everyone else in the group at the same time? Or would that be too much for us all to handle? (Cyberspace activity can take over your limited energy sometimes!)

Anyhow, you both make excellent points. Fortunately, I became ill with the CFS/MCS/Fibro combination only about six years ago, so have a difficult time connecting it to M and the ashram days. I did, however, have my first bout with CFIDS back at SHIP in 1979, though I didn't know what it was then. I went to a naturopath (thank GOD they were enlightened about letting us go to doctors -- the ashram paid well over $600 for that naturopath, a lot of money then) who gave me some high concentrations of glandular extracts which shocked my vegetarian run-down system into working extremely well for the next 15 years or so, they totally chased the whole thing away. I am about to start something similar now, so will report back any positive findings.

But the illness/spirituality connection is a very interesting one. Have just received an excellent book as a Christmas present -- Multiple Chemical Sensitivity - a Survival Guide by Pamela Reed Gibson, in which she actually addresses this as well as the effect having this illness has on one's life and those around you (Sir Dave, take note!). Only trouble is, I'm having trouble tolerating the book, so it's outside while I have very brief sessions of reading it. Hopefully will get it finished eventually. Ah, the joys of MCS.

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Date: Fri, Dec 29, 2000 at 16:27:24 (GMT)
From: Eagle
Email: None
To: Joy
Subject: Ouch, yawn, ouch
Message:
I had some similar help from a naturopath to get over severe fatigue and yeast/food-allergy thing back in late seventies. The doc said you gotta eat some hamburgers right now (really) and I did even though I had been a vegetarian for seven years. Eating only meat and rice pulled me out enough to work again.

I too have only recently recognized the problems I have had are best described as fibromyalgia syndrome (FMS) and that they have flared at different times for many years. Very interesting to me now is a website and mailing list re guaiafenesin therapy:
(check it out here: http://www.netromall.com/guai-support/)

I think using the techniques so much caused me great physical problems. To the neck, for example. I actually found I had little indentations in my skull where my fingers had been so long placed. They have since gone away. And a big lump on my palate, which I also saw in another premie. My back problems were aggravated by sitting in lotus position back before it was 'allowed' to sit comfortably. And I swear the last program I observed that most old-timers had 'chicken necks' and could relate after spending thousands on a chiropractor to straigten my bones again.

I also think it's important not to fall into a victim space about all this. But I also think my body is real pissed at me for not listening to its complaints for so long. And I need to understand what I did to it, and actually apologize to it so to speak. Gain its trust again.

Enough already!
Take care

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Date: Sat, Dec 30, 2000 at 01:29:39 (GMT)
From: Helen
Email: None
To: Eagle
Subject: Ouch, yawn, ouch
Message:
Amazing how premies' very bodies became molded by what they thought M should want them to do! All that sacrifice for what? And here he was preying on blondes and drinking like a fish. Was he flagulating himself for the pleasures of the flesh? No way.

I also eat meat when I feel the need--even beef these days. I need it. Hope you feel better soon.

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Date: Sat, Dec 30, 2000 at 00:42:31 (GMT)
From: Disculta
Email: None
To: Eagle
Subject: Apologizing to the bod - a letter
Message:
Dear Bod,

This is your so-called spirit, or Higher Self, and i am writing this apology letter as part of a program of recovery that I am voluntarily undertaking to heal my patriarchal superiority complex that has caused me to override you to the point of practically doing you in.

Somewhere along the way, I decided that you were too slow, too messy and too sensitive to really be worth listening to, so I was very attracted to beliefs and pathways that invited me to go 'up, up and way' into spirit, to transcend the flesh, to see you as merely my instrument (my as in belonging to spirit) or merely a 'hotel' that the 'real' me (spirit) is staying in temporarily. I now realize that this attitude is self-fulfilling, since when I see you as an instrument or temporary hotel for 'me, the spirit' to use, I shorten your life considerably. I am really sorry that I took on these ridiculous beliefs. In my defense, they are pretty much the spiritual status quo worldwide. I pretended that you were not me, that your cries of pain and exhaustion were either an alien that needed to be whipped into submission, or something I needed to learn to completely ignore. And I did. I succeeded at becoming a marvellous channel for spirit. I gave satsang all over the world, pretty much every night for 10 years, however tired or in pain I was. Then you started fighting back, but I was a worthy opponent. When you said you were tired, I said, 'Well, service is the purpose of my life, so I'll just go to DECA for a few short hours.' WHen you said, 'I don't like the smells at DECA,' I said, 'Well, Maharaji will protect you.' When you said, 'I don't like this whole trip,' I said, 'We must move baack in the ashram to be true devotees.' When you started screaming on all emotional and physical channels, I felt that you were driving me crazy. It took a while before I realized that it had been me that was driving us crazy, me and my absurd embrace of these denial-based spiritual concepts.

Then I left Maharaji and went into the world to explore all sorts of things. But I somehow still retained my tendency to override you, even though much of what I was doing as a therapist and teacher was to help people NOT override the body and emotions. It was such a deep habit and addiction. In the last two years you have pretty much shut me down, and I have been re-examining my whole life, my whole belief that my life is for service and for others, that it's not okay to live for myself.

The thing is, I have tried to dedicate myself to you, to fulfilling your needs, and I find you, body, to be very cranky and uncooperative. You seem to keep getting sicker and sicker. I understand that you don't trust me, and aren't so easily sweet-talked -- like a women who has been betrayed by her man, refusing to forgive just because he brings her flowers a couple of times. This whole thing we have been going through, this whole bad relationship - near-divorce even, is the archetypal playing out of the split between spirit and matter, isn't it? And you are matter, and matter comes from the same root as mother, but I'm not finding you to be a loving mother, any more than you have probably found me to be a loving father. I am finding you to be very hostile. I have been hunting down all these things to make you feel better, and you seem to be allergic to everything.

I am open to being informed by you from the inside, about what you want and need to heal. I am not open to you tyrannically wreaking revenge on our life ongoingly. Can we have a truce? I am devoted to the idea of our sacred marriage - spirit and matter. I now know that I cannot fulfill my purpose without you. That you are an essential part of me. I disavow completely the whole mainstream/alternate spirituality that says you are lower or less or any such crap. Please help me help us.

Love, Your Spirit (formerly misnamed your 'Higher Self')

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Date: Wed, Dec 27, 2000 at 11:43:50 (GMT)
From: SB
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: What Maharaji CAN tell the premies.
Message:
If he had the guts. Common maharaji, please try. DO IT!!

Dear premies,

We gather HERE today to remind ourselves of what is true. We are alive. (duhh) We are breathing... (more duhh) like everybody else in the planet. I was wrong all along. We premies are not special human beings. Life is special on its own.

I wanted to have this program to get sincere once and for all because after all, I do have a conscience that dictates in me what is wrong and right and I have avoided enough listening to it and you all need to know the real truth. I want you to go free to enjoy, if you can, but I doubt it, the last years of your lives. I say I doubt it because when I look at the whole picture, when I realized all the stupidity I inculcated in your minds, I wonder how you could ever erase all the hidden messages received from me. I poisoned your beings, your souls. I killed your innocense. I say I killed it because I wonder if many of you are ever to get over your involvement with me. I just hope you can go on; learn to be just yourselves. I hope sincerelly taht you do.

When I left India to impart 'this' knowledge I was young, unneducated, and stupidly naive. Because of the circumstances under which I was born I learned to believe even what it's unvelievable by nature. God cannot be an stupid human being like me. I don't believe I am God incarnated anymore, in fact, I should have listen to Bob Mishler when he pointed to that fact long a go and I chose to continue the deception. He was a good kind smart man, not me. I am a greedy, deceiving lost soul.

I was so young that I left myself get convinced I was 'The Special One, since my father was as greedy as I am. The family bussiness had to be mantained at all costs, and my mother and Mahatmas knew that and used me, but like I said, Mishler told me the truth and I took a shortcut; I chose that IT WAS GOOD FOR ME TO LIE TO YOU. My family and troop had created their world and I was used to perpetuate the biggest lie ever: WE are the real special ones.

I made a mistake misleading you to create a world for yourselves as miserable as mine, well, I had some fun all because all my toys distracted me. I'm sorry for all the inconviniences I caused you. I mislead you to believe that a smile and false beliefs could stop you from seeing the illussion when in reality, what I 'sold' to you was the ultimate illussion. I was never God incarnated and now you are fhuqed. Get help.

I am willing to give every cent back to the ones who gave me the fortune I posses today: It doesn't belong to me. I know taht many people gave me even what they did not have. Many got in debt using credit cards creating inmense bills that they may not be able to pay soon enough to rest. I continue sending David Smith and David Mancoff around asking for money, saying thah even $5 could help, knowing taht you will always give more than that. I manipulated you through them. I cannot stand for one more minute to look around me and see everybody suffering, confused. I cannot stand myself anymore. I must acknowledge that the way I was leading your lives is nothing but bad. I must take responsability for my actions since I do not want any more suicides. I do not want even one more person to committe suicide. The way I taught to you have made your minds sick. Seek psychological help. You need it. Disregard all I said to you about me.

I am so, so very sorry, from the bottom of my heart. I do not expect forgiveness but do it, forgive me for your own good, so your lives, for some of you can be at least bereable. I know that for many ex-premies simply isn't. Their surrender to me got to be so deep that some lost themeselves completly. I made such an ensalada of all making statements to deny them them 10 minutes later that now I see what I have done. I confused you and acted irresponsibly to the maximum. I sepatate many of their families. Many of you have children and many will be fhuqed forever. They will never recover their lost innocense. I'm sorry.

You can start throwing the tomates now. The more rotten the better. I deserve the worst. I surrender. Good night.

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Date: Thurs, Dec 28, 2000 at 20:52:00 (GMT)
From: Disculta
Email: None
To: SB
Subject: READ THE ABOVE POST exes and Lardy! nt
Message:
nt
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Date: Wed, Dec 27, 2000 at 06:53:34 (GMT)
From: Salam
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: Can you belive this............ot
Message:
Meathead is already nominated as the Person of the year by Time Magazine:

— Not only did George W. Bush win the closest and most controversial U.S. presidential election in more than a century, he also got tapped to be Time magazine’s “Person of the Year 2000.”

Anyone knows how they do that,

Salam

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Date: Wed, Dec 27, 2000 at 12:31:56 (GMT)
From: Sir Dave
Email: None
To: Salam
Subject: Can you belive this............ot
Message:
As Alistaire Cook said in his brilliant weekly 'Letter from America', Americans had the choice between an able robot or a likable dimwit.

For such a man to reach the Whitehouse is some achievement although less so since his Father obviously helped. Otherwise it reminds me of the film, 'Being there' starring Peter Sellers as Chauncy Gardner.

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Date: Wed, Dec 27, 2000 at 07:53:41 (GMT)
From: ham
Email: None
To: Salam
Subject: Only in America! (nt)
Message:
ah
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Date: Wed, Dec 27, 2000 at 02:01:10 (GMT)
From: Steve Quint
Email: the_avenger55@hotmail.com
To: Everyone
Subject: Some Deep Thoughts
Message:
I just heard Frampton's 'Do You Feel Like We Do' on the radio followed by a rap on Frampton. After all the mentions of him on the forum, I got depressed when I heard the song associating it with the perfect jerkster.

If m won't resign, I'm wondering if somehow we can buy the guru franchise from him. I know it would likely be expensive, but it might be the most beneficial and practical way. Maybe Mike Dettmers can help raise the 40 million or whatever it would cost.

Steve

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Date: Wed, Dec 27, 2000 at 18:57:14 (GMT)
From: Oliver
Email: None
To: Steve Quint
Subject: Some Sleep Thoughts
Message:
SSShhhhhh.
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Date: Tues, Dec 26, 2000 at 23:35:53 (GMT)
From: Wondering
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: Who Is Danielle Fitzpatrick?
Message:
Does anyone know who this is and why he or she is going around speaking to premies?
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Date: Wed, Dec 27, 2000 at 21:53:37 (GMT)
From: Ian Dury
Email: None
To: Wondering
Subject: ..she's currently an instructor...(nt)
Message:
xxx
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Date: Wed, Dec 27, 2000 at 22:18:44 (GMT)
From: Joe
Email: None
To: Ian Dury
Subject: What do Instructors do nowadays?
Message:
Is she a full-time employee of Elan Vital?

What country is she from?

Was she around in the 70s and 80s?

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Date: Thurs, Dec 28, 2000 at 04:45:25 (GMT)
From: Ian Dury
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: What do Instructors do nowadays?
Message:
Joe,

Let me know if you get my e-mail.

Ian

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Date: Fri, Dec 29, 2000 at 02:33:13 (GMT)
From: Joe
Email: Joger02@aol.com
To: Ian Dury
Subject: I got it.
Message:
Yes, I got it.
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Date: Wed, Dec 27, 2000 at 11:45:59 (GMT)
From: Her mother
Email: None
To: Wondering
Subject: Who Is Danielle Fitzpatrick?
Message:
A big honcho inspiring the old premies to continue believing, so she can have a Lard herself. A little cult where to belong.
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Date: Wed, Dec 27, 2000 at 04:00:31 (GMT)
From: Paul
Email: None
To: Wondering
Subject: Who Is Danielle Fitzpatrick?
Message:
Yea,

I would like to myself. What is your take on the whole 'knowledge' thing?

Paul

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Date: Tues, Dec 26, 2000 at 22:41:15 (GMT)
From: Paul
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: Maharaji
Message:
As someone who used to practice the'knowledge' I find these websites extremely helpful and very shocking. Is the general consenus that he is a fraud and has totally exploited people to amass a huge personal fortune? Does anyone know if he invests his money in dubious and unenthical business interests? What is the future for his children? Are any of them being 'groomed' to be the next 'perfect master'?
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Date: Wed, Dec 27, 2000 at 19:00:27 (GMT)
From: Oliver
Email: None
To: Paul
Subject: One never do know, do one? (nt).
Message:
nt
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Date: Tues, Dec 26, 2000 at 21:20:50 (GMT)
From: Elan Vital
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: New FAQs
Message:
TO: Anybody Who Will Listen

FROM: Elan Vital

Date: December 26, 2000

Subject: A Change In Emphasis for Elan Vital

Due to the accellerating number of Internet-based, ruthless and unsubstantiated attacks on Maharaji, who never, ever, claimed to be God, and Elan Vital, which is not a cult because it differs from a cult in a number of ways we have already mentioned, Elan Vital feels it is necessary to make a statement, and to some extent change the way it has been presenting itself and Maharaji. This is especially motivated by the fact that, apparently, some people, who shall remain unnamed, who used to be working with Maharaji in his selfless efforts to bring love to the entire world, has decided to mention some things that are really nobody's business.

We must, once again, point out that, with a few minor exceptions, these attacks have been made largely by anonymous sub-creatures, who are completely responsible, themselves, for whatever happened to them that they don't like, and who, since they lacked the proper understanding of what knowledge is, never practiced it and hence are confused beyond belief.

Because of these events, we have decided to expand and re-orient our FAQs, not because these stupid questions deserve to be answered, but just because of the love love we have experienced from that gift which non-god-claiming Maharaji gave to us, and not because we, or Maharaji, feel backed into a corner, have the appearance of lying, or because most of our staff quit because of the ignorant and dishonest things they were being required to say.

Since we have had some, extremely minor, turnover at Elan Vital recently, Elan Vital has been a little slow in responding to these issues. Many of the Elan Vital PR staff members have now been replaced with a much more synchronized group than we had before, who are better able to function in an in-synch, leaderless teamwork, fully-facilitated environment. You may notice a somewhat revised emphasis in how Elan Vital now describes things in this memorandum and from now on.

Accordingly, it is now Elan Vital's policy that while Maharaji never, ever claimed to be god, and while we are not a cult, we really aren't, Maharaji IS the Lord of the Universe and the only living Perfect Master. Let's face it. He is and always was. He has never changed his teachings about this, and, as such, he is truly a Lotus; he lives in the world but is not of the world, and hence, like his successful lifestyle, no one, including Elan Vital, is in any position to judge him and he can do anything he wants. Anyone who criticizes him for anything lacks understanding, and is a confused, wretched, sub-human, bound for hell. Of course, we would never judge anyone for that and people can decide to be bound for hell if they want to. Elan Vital has a policy that none of this is anyone's business but their own.

With that clear understanding in mind, we have decided to face the fact that Maharaji drinks like a fish, has had a mistress for over 10 years, failed to take steps to prevent child sexual molestations in Elan Vital, has had sex numerous times with a large number of his female followers, smoked dope for years while ordering his followers to refrain from drugs, and killed a man while driving his car in India and then fled his legal obligations and allowed someone else to take the blame. But hey folks, let us tell you, this is just the tip of the iceberg, when it comes to Maharaji. But if you have the proper understanding, all of this is irrelevent and beyond our understanding, because Maharaji is the Lord of the Universe, exempt from all the rules that apply to everybody else.

This is because all the time Maharaji was getting so drunk he passed out and had to be carried to bed by Danny Blood, was smoking doobies with Michael Dettmers, Marolyn and Peter Frampton, was having sexual relations with numerous of his devotees, and was having others cover for his killing a cyclist in India, he was not attached to any of it, but actually floated high above the earth, away from all that is unpleasant. You see, he is fully realized and perfect, and human beings, especially those who lack understanding, cannot possibly see why he does those things, but they are all part of his plan, which only he can see.

Like we say on the Elan Vital website, Maharaji is also not attached to his Yacht and gold toilet, and hence he can have them and it's just fine. It's the same way with all those other things as well. He can have sex with anybody he wants to, and drink and take drugs and it's just fine. Laws do not apply to him, and anyone would be just so fortunate to be able to take the rap for Maharaji in order so that he could avoid the inconvenience of dealing with it himself. Elan Vital has a strict policy that life for the Perfect Master on our primitive planet is hard enough. We should all be thrilled to make it easier for him if we could, even if that means going to jail, or giving Maharaji sexual favors, in order to avoid the inconvenience of hiring professional prostitutes.

We hope this clears up all your stupid questions, and will allow us to get back to synchronized event planning, and designing the all knew gold-lotus cuttlery sets available through Visions. Also, check out our new numbingly boring new-age music, and books of verse/poetry, authored by the Perfect Master, who never claimed to be God.

Sincerly,

Elan Vital

ABSOLUTELY NOT A CULT SINCE 1971

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Date: Wed, Dec 27, 2000 at 06:54:08 (GMT)
From: la-ex
Email: None
To: Elan Vital
Subject: FAQs?LOLcan we put this somehwere for all tosee?nt
Message:
nt
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Date: Wed, Dec 27, 2000 at 04:09:33 (GMT)
From: Bazza
Email: None
To: Elan Vital
Subject: Nah you got it entirely wrong
Message:
Maharaji suffers the burden of luxury quite simply because, well, it comes with the territory of being the Lord and the rest of us would explode given the same burden.

But don't take my word for it, hear it straight from the horses mouth:-

Maharaji's Answer to Why He Doesn't Feed the Hungry

Extract (for discussion) from 'Lord of the Universe'
© Subtle Communications 1991

Buy your own copy of this wonderful video from LOTU at Amazon.com

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Date: Wed, Dec 27, 2000 at 03:26:31 (GMT)
From: Marianne
Email: MarianneDB@aol.com
To: Elan Vital
Subject: New FAQs
Message:
Dear Elan Vital,

I had been in the process of drafting a post about the real meaning of Maharaji's actions concerning the death of the cyclist in India, but I see that you have beaten me to the punch, so to speak. Your new FAQ's say it so much better than I ever could have done.

Many thanks,
Marianne
You know where to find me, as I mentioned in that libel thread below

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Date: Tues, Dec 26, 2000 at 22:37:42 (GMT)
From: Roger eDrek
Email: drek@oz.net
To: Elan Vital
Subject: Elan Vital, can you elaborate on Synchronization?
Message:
To the non-employee, non-member of Elan Vital Publicity Department:

Thank you for your new FAQ. I applaud your honesty in the bold and outright assertion that Maharaji is the Lord of the Universe, the one and only Living Perfect Master. With this kind of honesty, I truly believe that Elan Vital can once again reclaim its glory days of bringing new sheep to the Master to be shorn and become one of the fucked flock.

I am intrigued with the (over) use of the word, syncrhonization because it reminds me of that excellent Police album called Synchronicity. Did you know that Sting has his own jet, too?

Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't synchronization really just a semantic device to mean all the Premies need to follow one and only one person of authority, the Maharaji? And they need to follow Maharaji's orders regardless of what kind of person Maharaji might be in 'real life' because if Premies don't follow Maharaji's orders, oh what the hell - agya, then Maharaji's mission to save humanity will fail. I mean, isn't that what it's all about - the salvation of the human race? Being saved from all the self-indulgent and self-destructive behavior that weak willed humans cannot seem to avoid? And how can human beings avoid the temptations of the flesh? Of course! By living a disciplined life - being a disciple of the Living Perfect Master, the one who has mastered his own life and, thusly, is the example of perfect understanding of the importance of the sanctity of this precious gift of life.

It's so, so beautiful, isn't it? Yes, I see the light now. I was lost, but now I am found.

Don't give up on me, Elan Vital, sir. I need structure. I need discipline. I need a pure example, a perfect role model.

I need to be synchronized by the Living Perfect Master of our time. I need to follow and obey the Master like a little puppy dog. My ears will only hear what the Master wants me to hear. My eyes will see only what the Master wants me to see. My mouth will be mute unless the Master wishes for me to speak. I will be the Master's puppet where the strings do not bind me, but instead link me to the Master's guiding hands. And with the Master in control of me I will flop about whenever he sees fit to jerks my strings with his dance of lila. I will be in perfect synchronicity by the grace fo the Master!

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Date: Wed, Dec 27, 2000 at 01:44:29 (GMT)
From: Elan Vital
Email: None
To: Roger eDrek
Subject: Your frequently asked, stupid/ confused questions
Message:
We here at Elan Vital do not presume to have the understanding necessary to know the true meaning of 'synchronization.' In the dictionary, it is a noun meaning an event in which 'things happen at the same time.' But Maharaji has used to word a lot, seems to like it, so we use it too, although we aren't quite sure why. We think it must have some kind of special meaning, since Maharaji is the Perfect Master and knows these things, and we, being the scum under his feet, do not.

In earlier years we used words like 'in your(my)mind,' 'truth is the consciousness of bliss,' 'world peace organization,' 'you must taste the mango,' 'surrender the reigns of your life to Maharaji,' 'the Superior Power in Person,' 'Durga Ji,' 'And It Is Divine (what DID that mea), and 'Ki Jai.' We never knew what those words meant, either, but we used them anyway, because Maharaji did. By the way, no one who works here has any idea what 'Elan Vital' means either, nor why we ever got that name, but we do not judge those things, you know.

Regarding Sting, we think you must be mistaken, because, like the watch we have heard so much about, Maharaji invented the word 'synchronization' and even has a patent pending on the word. Sting may be hearing from the law firm of Milbank, Tweed any day now.

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Date: Wed, Dec 27, 2000 at 05:21:10 (GMT)
From: Roger eDrek
Email: drek@oz.net
To: Elan Vital
Subject: Don't give up on me, Elan Vital, sir!
Message:
Ok, I admit that I probably do ask too many stoopid questions, but I am a seeker of truth and the need arises inside of me in that place inside.

As you know, I am a fallen premie who is now trying to really understand Maharaji and HIS Knowledge. And I'm also trying to help a young new eager premie named TED Farkel. So, any help you can provide me to better understand ('stand under') will be greatly appreciated with much gratitude. Yet, it seems from your own response that you, too, are confused and your only understanding is that you don't understand and therefore you must rely on Maharaji to come through with that critical understanding that he provides with simple wise words and powerful cliches.

Don't give up on me, Elan Vital, but is it, therefore, ok to have excessive and unhealthy self-doubt and be forced to rely always on the Master to provide direction and to be a steady rudder in this life? Unto the Master's steady and unshakable hands I now cast my lot.

Are my own faculties, god given or maybe not, completely unreliable and untrustable?

Will my intellect and material desires lead me down a path of ruin?

Should I forsake such maya and give it up to Maharaji in the form of increased donations against my SmartCard?

I imagine that the more I surrender to Maharaji via the SmartCard the more I shall receive somewhere down the road??? Is that how it works? Is that why Maharaji is so rich? Because he is like a sponge soaking up all of the material desires that will destroy mere mortals like simple minded premies?

I appreciate your balancing presence here, Elan Vital. I see how quickly I am brought back to THAT place when I read your quiet, but deep, words - words of truth, satsang. I feel a deep hypnotic peace when I read your words.

Don't give up on me, Elan Vital! I need structure. I need discipline. I need to figure out what to do with the inheritance that I'm going to get next month. I'm so confused. Should I pay my past-due child support? Get my 1989 Hyundai fixed so I can get to my job on time in the morning? Or should I quit my job and go to Amaroo to do service?

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Date: Wed, Dec 27, 2000 at 06:37:28 (GMT)
From: TED Farkel
Email: None
To: Roger eDrek
Subject: Slow down, Mr.eDrek and come again...
Message:
Dear Mr. eDrek-

Now Mr. eDrek, I was in a fine holiday mood-checking out the Christmas lights strung across the double doors of the shop (they spell SYNCHRONIZATION NOW)-our humble little village of Shaft, Alabama is warming up nicely to them...

And I was lookin forward to trying to get one of those 'e-boobs T-shirts' printed out on my iron on transfer software package on my new dell...

Well, things were goin fine, until I read your post...are you havin doubts, Mr. eDrek?...carnal desires?....not sure where to put your hard earned dollars now that nasdaq has crashed?...I think you are havin a tough time with ole mr. mind, Mr. eDrek...best to give it to our lord...he eats it, he once said...and don't worry too much, all your sins are removed once you receive the big k, just like he said in 1972....

So chin up mr. e Drek, squash those doubts, let the devotional fires rip...I can't afford to have my mentor be confused!...if you need some help, come on down to Mobile, we'll pick you up at the airport, you can watch all the videos you want (beer is still only $1.50/video), ladies night is Tues. (free beer for ladies!)...DAVID SMITH is due this month for a 2 week stay at the shop (puttin him up in the loft next to the old transmission grave yard), so come on down, and bring your lady too!

TED Farkel
(still greatful after all these months for your sage advice on the pitfalls of the path...)

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Date: Wed, Dec 27, 2000 at 19:58:02 (GMT)
From: Roger eDrek
Email: drek@oz.net
To: TED Farkel
Subject: Thank the Lord for new premies
Message:
Thank the Lord for giving us each other, TED Farkel.

In my moment of weakness, my moment of doubt, I became confused. I was in my mind. Such as it is to be in so much pain and darkness when just around the corner is the safety of remembering Holy Name.

Thank you, TED, for being a breath of inspired fresh air. Having new premies around, while tiresome at times, can often be quite beneficial. I'm glad that your efforts at propagation are paying off with a visit from the ever reluctant saint, the one and only David Smith. One word of advice, TED, quite often premies confuse David Smith's demeanor with being intentionally cruel, but he is only that way for one purpose and that is to crush your mind and ego - the things that keep you away from Maharaji.

I'm almost tempted to head your way to be there with David Smith, but I've just started a new job here in Thousand Oaks and I don't have any vacation saved up yet.

Ok, TED, you are a beacon of fresh hope. Keep propagating and bring more people to the Feet!

Yours in synchronicity,

Roger eDrek

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Date: Wed, Dec 27, 2000 at 23:29:10 (GMT)
From: TED Farkel(a good friend)
Email: None
To: Roger eDrek
Subject: Mr. eDrek, that's what friends are for!!!
Message:
Dear Mr. eDrek-

Nice to hear from you, son!

Don't let that ole mind get you down, Mr. drek...

You know, I was just perusin the site today, and realized a few things that ought to keep the fires burnin for you, son....

First of all, world peace has come. Our master said he would bring it, swore on the holy bible he'd do it, and he did!
There might be a few doubters, but those of us who don't doubt,we know that he's right...

Second, all of our sins are removed, cos we received the special K, just like he said in 1972...

Third, janice wilson doesn't like snot. I don't know what that has to do with anything, but if a great devoteee like janice can write crazy shit like that and get away with it, well, there's hope for you and me,mr. edrek...

Fourth, Mr. David Smith is comin to Mobile next week for 2 weeks. Like I said, he'll be bunkin up in the loft with Jake and Clayborn, my 2 blue-tic hounds, alongside half a dozen broke down transmissions. It's a litle dusty up there, but Dave will warm up to it just right after a night or two.

You may not know this, but David Smith loves it down here in Shaft. He gets to kick back, let his hair down a bit, pop a foamy with the boys and kind of escape from the rigors of 'real life premiedom'....he loves the $1.50/beer and ladies nite too. Haven't showed him the 'boob fest site' yet, but might this time after a few cold ones on friday night. the 'boys' at the shop are a little slow in warming up to big Dave, but I'm expecting good things in the new millenium with the great one, David Smith...if he has anything inspirin to pass on, you'll be the first to know!

Yours in synchronicity, and arti trays too!
TED Farkel
a kinder, gentler premie

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Date: Thurs, Dec 28, 2000 at 03:59:22 (GMT)
From: Roger eDrek
Email: drek@oz.net
To: TED Farkel(a good friend)
Subject: I'm feeling the gratitude now!
Message:
With a little help from my good friend, TED Farkel, and Elan Vital's latest FAQs I've got a new outlook on life and I'm thinking I wanna busty blonde about now.
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Date: Tues, Dec 26, 2000 at 22:34:25 (GMT)
From: Aussi Ji
Email: None
To: Elan Vital
Subject: Give that author a banana
Message:
nt
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Date: Thurs, Dec 28, 2000 at 04:49:59 (GMT)
From: suchabanana
Email: None
To: Aussi Ji
Subject: Ok, I award one very choice Costa Rican 'naner (nt
Message:
nt
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Date: Tues, Dec 26, 2000 at 19:54:31 (GMT)
From: Bongo
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: What were the dates of Copenhagen and Essen?
Message:
Can anyone please remember for me? I am reviewing my past. Thanks,Bongo.
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Date: Tues, Dec 26, 2000 at 20:42:43 (GMT)
From: hamzen
Email: None
To: Bongo
Subject: Yuch, don't remind me.
Message:
Copenhagen either july/august '74, essen july/august '75.

Remember those marches through different cities carrying banners of gm, and we thought we weren't in a cult, frightening really.

Best of luck with your knowledge 'review', god so much garbage.

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Date: Wed, Dec 27, 2000 at 03:03:08 (GMT)
From: Salam
Email: None
To: hamzen
Subject: It does give you an indegestion, doesn't it?..nt
Message:
nt
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Date: Tues, Dec 26, 2000 at 20:09:01 (GMT)
From: Joe
Email: None
To: Bongo
Subject: Copenhagen, I think...
Message:
Was the European Guru Puja festival in 1974, corresponding to the one in North America at Amherst, Massachusetts, which was in July, 1974. So, I assume it was sometime around July, 1974.
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Date: Wed, Dec 27, 2000 at 09:49:14 (GMT)
From: JTF
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: Copenhagen, I think.../yes, it was
Message:
I have an old cult magazine with excerpts from both Guru Puja's. These were the coming out festivals for Dunga Ji.
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Date: Tues, Dec 26, 2000 at 21:31:30 (GMT)
From: Bongo
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: Many thanks.
Message:
Thank you everyone for the memory nudge. Something deep down does not want to recall this stuff! Apologies to Hamzen for provoking retching. Love BongoPs.The DETAILSof the memory revue are the most revealing bits.AAAAArgh!
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Date: Tues, Dec 26, 2000 at 20:40:37 (GMT)
From: Lesley
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: Essen, I think...
Message:
was in 1975, warm and sunny weather.
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Date: Tues, Dec 26, 2000 at 23:57:54 (GMT)
From: Bin Liner
Email: None
To: Lesley
Subject: The bole shris were loud there as I remember
Message:
I recall a moment when I thought something like , 'Hitler ,eat your heart out you misguided motherfucker , we're divine'.

The association of place.

If there's anything in this reincarnation shit , next time round I want to be holding a tommy gun not a beragon.

Wierd place though , everyone going to bed at 9pm , walking around with big dogs , & all brand new.

I got a couple of camp beds out of it + darshan (all important) , & went on & on &on etc..... believing that Rawat ,in some mysterious way , was the Incarnation of God.

FUCK HIM

pax


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Date: Wed, Dec 27, 2000 at 20:33:53 (GMT)
From: Lesley
Email: None
To: Bin Liner
Subject: Those camp bed dormitories, eek
Message:
Hope you got a go in the wave pool nearby!
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Date: Thurs, Dec 28, 2000 at 20:32:28 (GMT)
From: Bongo
Email: None
To: Lesley
Subject: Oh the details, the details!
Message:
Walked through the streets shouting thus:
Call:(solo,strong indian accent. Charanackers?)
'WHO IS GOOROOMAHARAJI?!!!!'
Response:(Ensemble with hysteria)
'SAVIOUR OF MANKIND!!'
Call:
'WHAT DOES HE BRING?!'
Response:
'LOVE LIGHT AND PEACE!!'
This I chanted willingly, holding up a placard, and marching through the main street. I think somehow I equated it with a perverted Christian notion of ritual self-abasement in public. I was trying to 'lose myself', something that christianity told me would enable me to 'find myself'. What a pile of crap. How vulnerable the young are. The suggestive promise of purity through sacrifice.I woz got. Love Bongo
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Date: Thurs, Dec 28, 2000 at 21:03:56 (GMT)
From: Lesley
Email: None
To: Bongo
Subject: Oh the details, the details!
Message:
I marched through the streets of London, Hyde Park '73, I think it was, a dazed, confused 18 year old. A rather good looking black man approached me. I went with him to have a cup of tea, it was some time later that i realised he must have been trying to pick me up, and gave up in the face of my starry eyed confusion. Fortunately he had already paid for the tea before disappearing!
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Date: Tues, Dec 26, 2000 at 07:50:40 (GMT)
From: Stonor
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: Ex-premie org #1 at Google!
Message:
Ex-premie org #1 at Google!

Guru Maharaji Search on Google

This guy puts it rather succinctly: kheper-auz

Guru Maharaji and Divine Light Mission

I first heard about Guru Maharaji when i was at Uni some 20 years ago. I saw a 2nd hand book with a pudgy smiling Indian boy and a pink cover with the caption 'The Love Bomb has exploded' (or
something like that - it was very 60s-ish). Thought it a bit of a laugh, the cover that is. I didn't read the book though, was never into love bombs and flower power....

Many years later when I hung around for a short while with people in the occult community (O.T.O.) this thing about Divine Light Mission and 'the knowledge' kept coming up. They were all into
it. Not into Maharaji or the Guru scene, with which they agreed with me, but this particular technique, which seems to involve meditation on sound and light, perhaps not unlike Radha Soami (Sant Mat) and elements of Tantra. Obviously it is an underlying element of Indian yoga and esotericism.

I've only heard Guru Maharaji speak once, some years ago. It was in a big auditorium. I was invited there by a friend, a fellow by the name of Keith who was also a devotee of Swamiji . Listening to Guru Mahaji talk, I felt he was a nice guy (or at least he had a nice manner about him) even if a little too slick. He certainly didn't strike me as enlightened. He was no more Guru than you or I. The audience were almost all devotees ready to jump up kiss his backside in an instant. When one woman, an middle aged lady, stood up and said something critical to Maharaji. He quickly put her in her place with some reply (I dont even remeber what the question was, or his reply, except it was nothing fancy). The whole auditorium laughed and cheered and clapped at that. Sad really....

I looked up some stuff on the Web for links when I was making this page. Seems like everything on Mahaji is pretty negative. That fellow has a PR problem alright! ;-)

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Date: Tues, Dec 26, 2000 at 01:34:21 (GMT)
From: Aussi Ji
Email: None
To: Gerry
Subject: Back off hols
Message:
G'Day Gerry,I have been on hols so I didnt get to reply to your posts.I am ready to receive your flack now.Go ahead and fire away.By the way I had a great holiday,I even meditated a few times and enjoyed it.It is nice to do it with no guru crap in your head.Anyway I am ready and unarmed for your assault(just joking)
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Date: Tues, Dec 26, 2000 at 01:36:24 (GMT)
From: Aussi Ji
Email: None
To: Gerry
Subject: Back off hols
Message:
nt
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Date: Tues, Dec 26, 2000 at 01:38:16 (GMT)
From: Aussi Ji
Email: None
To: Gerry
Subject: Back off hols Gerry
Message:
I'll get it right soon
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Date: Tues, Dec 26, 2000 at 16:47:59 (GMT)
From: gErRy
Email: None
To: Aussi Ji
Subject: Dear brother or sister Aussi Ji...
Message:
I am feeling so full in my heart a growing devotion to the One who has defeated the enemy for all eternity, He who has conquered death, I have no room for such petty debate. Who can write of such things when his heart wants to sing the song of the Beloved?

Now Dear Aussi Ji, I invite you to accept Mithras into your heart as I have and join me in our sacred (virtual)Temple for some holiday worship...

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Date: Tues, Dec 26, 2000 at 22:04:35 (GMT)
From: Aussi Ji
Email: None
To: gErRy
Subject: Dear brother or sister Aussi Ji...
Message:
G'Day Gerry,It is brother ji .Thank you for that enlightening piece of ancient history.Have a good holiday season.I presume it is as cold as a witches tit over there at the moment.It is as hot as hell over here in Aussiland.Cheers, Aussi Ji.
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Date: Wed, Dec 27, 2000 at 18:55:28 (GMT)
From: Oliver
Email: None
To: Aussi Ji
Subject: Pssst, hey Aussi(e) Ji....
Message:
I live in Sydney.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
Where are you?
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Date: Thurs, Dec 28, 2000 at 07:04:30 (GMT)
From: sam
Email: -
To: Oliver
Subject: Pssst, hey Aussi(e) Ji....
Message:
hi oliver,( and Aussie Ji)
I live on the central coast too. Have u always been in Sydney?
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Date: Thurs, Dec 28, 2000 at 11:14:43 (GMT)
From: Aussi Ji
Email: None
To: sam
Subject: Pssst, hey Aussi(e) Ji....
Message:
Hi Sam,I heard through the grape vine you may be weakening?
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Date: Fri, Dec 29, 2000 at 06:01:28 (GMT)
From: sam
Email: None
To: Aussi Ji
Subject: weakening? doing weights!OT
Message:
Hi T,
I'd be very interested to know where u heard that from!! No, I'm not at all, it continues to seem less real all the time. Especially when I read things like him killing a cyclist and scampering. Did u see that post from michael dettmers or were u away? Can only think it's from Judy who I saw at work a coulpe of times. Said she hasn't seen me at programs and I told her I dont go anymore. Then she told me about the 'beautiful satellite programs'.And in the middle of staff room couldn't tell her smiling, well-meaning face how I really felt- so I smiled wistfully back. I think she thought maybe I was missin m. But I also like that sense of freedom in my life which u mentioned- very happy to be 'out there' lol, and not caught up in it still.
You have me real curious now!!!!!!!!
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Date: Thurs, Dec 28, 2000 at 00:54:51 (GMT)
From: Aussi Ji
Email: None
To: Oliver
Subject: Pssst, hey Aussi(e) Ji....
Message:
G'Day Oliver, I am on the central coast up gosford way.cheers Aussi Ji.do you want to give me your email address .i cannot give you mine on here,I will give you reason for this after you give me yours(if you want to of course)
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