Way -:- Satpal is winning over Prempal in India? -:- Fri, Feb 02, 2001 at 20:22:17 (GMT)

__ DJURO -:- Satpal is winning over Prempal in India? -:- Tues, Feb 06, 2001 at 16:56:48 (GMT)

__ bill -:- Gradeing leeches -:- Sat, Feb 03, 2001 at 05:25:27 (GMT)

__ Kelly -:- Satpal is winning over Prempal in India? -:- Fri, Feb 02, 2001 at 22:03:05 (GMT)

Ulf -:- polycytami-vera . very o.t. -:- Fri, Feb 02, 2001 at 19:47:33 (GMT)

__ Monmot -:- polycytami-vera . very o.t. -:- Sat, Feb 03, 2001 at 01:31:58 (GMT)

__ runamok -:- try onelist.com and search it or related topics nt -:- Fri, Feb 02, 2001 at 22:34:00 (GMT)

__ JHB -:- Recurrent Erosion Syndrome (also OT) -:- Fri, Feb 02, 2001 at 19:52:25 (GMT)

__ __ ulf -:- Recurrent Erosion Syndrome (also OT) -:- Sat, Feb 03, 2001 at 12:00:44 (GMT)

Pauline Premie -:- The Visions Sponsorship Program -:- Fri, Feb 02, 2001 at 19:07:29 (GMT)

__ Pauline Premie -:- More about the yacht -:- Fri, Feb 02, 2001 at 19:16:20 (GMT)

__ __ Rosalia -:- You are wrong here Pauline -:- Sun, Feb 04, 2001 at 15:16:44 (GMT)

__ __ Joy -:- Pauline, You're So Inspiring -:- Fri, Feb 02, 2001 at 19:45:26 (GMT)

__ __ __ Conlon -:- Pauline, You just make me feel so guilty -:- Fri, Feb 02, 2001 at 19:56:17 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ Pauline Premie -:- Doing Participation -:- Sat, Feb 03, 2001 at 00:18:00 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ Conlon -:- Pauline, now that you have shown me the light -:- Sat, Feb 03, 2001 at 03:56:34 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ Roger eDrek -:- Conlon, an opportunity at TRAC awaits you -:- Sat, Feb 03, 2001 at 04:23:02 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Conlon -:- Oh, Roger, thank you thank you thank you -:- Sat, Feb 03, 2001 at 05:47:36 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Roger eDrek -:- well, I guess... -:- Sat, Feb 03, 2001 at 07:01:17 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Thelma -:- Fer Crisakes, Roger, don't let that fruit near TED -:- Sat, Feb 03, 2001 at 05:56:28 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Roger eDrek -:- Fer Crisakes, Roger, don't let that fruit near TED -:- Sat, Feb 03, 2001 at 06:49:36 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Thelma -:- I'm a self-made woman, Roger, -:- Sat, Feb 03, 2001 at 09:07:16 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ Joy -:- The New Yacht Needs -:- Fri, Feb 02, 2001 at 22:42:15 (GMT)

cq -:- In touch with reality? What do you think: -:- Fri, Feb 02, 2001 at 19:04:27 (GMT)

__ Daneane -:- M prison lectures?(nt) -:- Sat, Feb 03, 2001 at 04:29:04 (GMT)

__ Bin Liner -:- Your'e only alive by my grace .... -:- Fri, Feb 02, 2001 at 23:18:24 (GMT)

__ __ cq -:- you mean unspoken misunderstanding? -:- Sat, Feb 03, 2001 at 14:47:38 (GMT)

__ __ __ Jean-Paul -:- you mean unspoken misunderstanding? -:- Sun, Feb 04, 2001 at 14:49:28 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ cq -:- what is he? -:- Mon, Feb 05, 2001 at 18:39:18 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ Steve Quint -:- May I Repost This? -:- Mon, Feb 05, 2001 at 18:58:21 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ Steve Quint -:- Beautiful Post -:- Mon, Feb 05, 2001 at 18:55:41 (GMT)

__ __ __ Steve Quint -:- There Are Different Kinds Of Teachers -:- Sat, Feb 03, 2001 at 16:07:52 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ cq -:- premies are tied to their teacher's apron-strings -:- Sat, Feb 03, 2001 at 16:24:42 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ Steve Quint -:- What I'd Like To Know -:- Sat, Feb 03, 2001 at 17:59:22 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ Lesley -:- My take on this is -:- Sat, Feb 03, 2001 at 20:30:41 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Lesley -:- Plus -:- Sat, Feb 03, 2001 at 20:41:22 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Lesley -:- apologies -:- Sun, Feb 04, 2001 at 18:59:06 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ cq -:- This has GOT to be the question we've all avoided -:- Sat, Feb 03, 2001 at 18:20:54 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Katie -:- This has GOT to be the question we've all avoided -:- Sat, Feb 03, 2001 at 23:31:42 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Katie -:- Oops, one more BIG reason -:- Sat, Feb 03, 2001 at 23:44:31 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ moldy warp -:- Oops, one more BIG reason -:- Sun, Feb 04, 2001 at 00:38:46 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Kelly -:- This has GOT to be the question we've all avoided -:- Sat, Feb 03, 2001 at 18:56:07 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ cq -:- also recommended -:- Sat, Feb 03, 2001 at 19:43:26 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Kelly -:- also recommended -:- Sat, Feb 03, 2001 at 21:34:48 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ moldy warp -:- also recommended -:- Sun, Feb 04, 2001 at 00:45:20 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Kelly -:- Thanks, I'll check it out. nt -:- Sun, Feb 04, 2001 at 09:52:44 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ Steve Quint -:- The Quote Comes From U. Of South Carolina -:- Sat, Feb 03, 2001 at 16:14:25 (GMT)

__ Way -:- What do you have to show for it? -:- Fri, Feb 02, 2001 at 19:31:00 (GMT)

Patrick (formerly Anon) -:- Maharaji's new yacht - is it a guarded secret?? -:- Fri, Feb 02, 2001 at 12:49:58 (GMT)

__ jondon -:- How do you hide a 106' Yacht? -:- Sun, Feb 04, 2001 at 04:03:36 (GMT)

__ __ Jethro -:- It would be easier to call in David Copperfield.nt -:- Sun, Feb 04, 2001 at 13:15:35 (GMT)

__ Cynthia -:- Maharaji's new yacht - is it a guarded secret?? -:- Fri, Feb 02, 2001 at 23:42:42 (GMT)

__ JTF -:- rawat once used a yacht as a wealth meter -:- Fri, Feb 02, 2001 at 14:44:57 (GMT)

__ __ janet -:- more twisting truth right there-shows what HE knws -:- Sat, Feb 03, 2001 at 10:55:36 (GMT)

__ Katie -:- IMHO, the yacht is supposed to be a secret -:- Fri, Feb 02, 2001 at 14:09:14 (GMT)

__ JHB -:- Maharaji's new yacht - is it a guarded secret?? -:- Fri, Feb 02, 2001 at 13:07:27 (GMT)

__ __ Patrick -:- Maharaji's new yacht - is it a guarded secret?? -:- Fri, Feb 02, 2001 at 14:27:19 (GMT)

__ __ __ Jean-Michel -:- Here's more info reg The Divine Yacht -:- Fri, Feb 02, 2001 at 15:12:12 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ Francesca -:- Kathy Gliebe (yacht owner) OGM -:- Fri, Feb 02, 2001 at 17:29:49 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ Joe -:- Mary Holle (yacht owner) -:- Fri, Feb 02, 2001 at 17:51:53 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ Joe -:- Mary Holle (yacht owner) -:- Fri, Feb 02, 2001 at 17:48:17 (GMT)

__ __ __ Joe -:- The Yacht -:- Fri, Feb 02, 2001 at 15:08:40 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ Joe -:- The Yacht -- Also -:- Fri, Feb 02, 2001 at 15:12:54 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ Patrick (anon) -:- he needs a bigger yacht for his 'copter now. -:- Sun, Feb 04, 2001 at 11:45:29 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ la-ex -:- Are you serious,or just pulling our leg?nt -:- Mon, Feb 05, 2001 at 00:01:05 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ Bin Liner -:- Ballooning wealth , maybe , power no . nt -:- Sun, Feb 04, 2001 at 20:56:59 (GMT)

Bazza -:- Jeez Mike you've put on weight! -:- Fri, Feb 02, 2001 at 04:37:52 (GMT)

__ Mike Finch -:- Jeez Mike you've put on weight! -:- Fri, Feb 02, 2001 at 14:44:44 (GMT)

__ __ Conlon -:- Mike, what happened to the skinny ascetic saddhu? -:- Fri, Feb 02, 2001 at 19:21:52 (GMT)

__ __ Francesca -:- You're doing great, glad to have your input n/t -:- Fri, Feb 02, 2001 at 17:30:43 (GMT)

__ __ Disculta -:- Premie babes, dudes and weight -:- Fri, Feb 02, 2001 at 16:37:22 (GMT)

__ __ __ Joe -:- Ashram food trips -:- Fri, Feb 02, 2001 at 21:10:21 (GMT)

__ __ Bazza -:- Aw, you still look cute though/OT -:- Fri, Feb 02, 2001 at 16:19:58 (GMT)

__ __ __ Katie -:- Not esq. - Ph.D.! (ot) -:- Sat, Feb 03, 2001 at 22:53:37 (GMT)

JHB -:- Being in the world but not of it -:- Thurs, Feb 01, 2001 at 22:55:46 (GMT)

__ Gregg -:- Under the Blanket -:- Fri, Feb 02, 2001 at 18:30:26 (GMT)

__ moldy warp -:- Being in the world but not of it -:- Fri, Feb 02, 2001 at 02:49:23 (GMT)

__ SB -:- True for me too -:- Fri, Feb 02, 2001 at 01:56:33 (GMT)

__ la-ex -:- self transcendence or self denial? -:- Fri, Feb 02, 2001 at 01:18:39 (GMT)

__ Francesca -:- Being in the world but not of it -:- Thurs, Feb 01, 2001 at 23:55:15 (GMT)

__ __ Disculta -:- Being in the world but not of it -:- Fri, Feb 02, 2001 at 02:12:40 (GMT)

__ __ __ Conlon -:- Hindu contradictory nonsense -:- Fri, Feb 02, 2001 at 02:36:43 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ Lesley -:- Nature worship -:- Fri, Feb 02, 2001 at 19:41:25 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ Joe -:- Hindu contradictory nonsense -:- Fri, Feb 02, 2001 at 18:25:23 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ Conlon -:- Joe, the ''mind'' is now the ''doubt-maker'' -:- Fri, Feb 02, 2001 at 19:13:31 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ moldy warp -:- Hindu contradictory nonsense -:- Fri, Feb 02, 2001 at 02:56:59 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ Conlon -:- Thanks moldy warp -:- Fri, Feb 02, 2001 at 03:00:56 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ Postie -:- Like the Lotus -:- Fri, Feb 02, 2001 at 04:36:15 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Disculta -:- Coughing up mucus -:- Fri, Feb 02, 2001 at 18:15:47 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Postie -:- That's Hansa Swan Cottage Cheese (nt) -:- Fri, Feb 02, 2001 at 18:20:28 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Joe -:- Elan Vital STILL espouses this -:- Fri, Feb 02, 2001 at 14:57:41 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Jethro -:- I was told by a present premie... -:- Sun, Feb 04, 2001 at 13:54:59 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Jean-Paul -:- Painfull separation -:- Fri, Feb 02, 2001 at 11:03:32 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Francesca -:- Great post! n/t -:- Fri, Feb 02, 2001 at 17:52:13 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ bill -:- Yup-nt -:- Fri, Feb 02, 2001 at 13:13:43 (GMT)

JohnT -:- Have you heard what they say about ... -:- Thurs, Feb 01, 2001 at 05:08:01 (GMT)

__ salam -:- have you tried recording your poems -:- Thurs, Feb 01, 2001 at 06:17:44 (GMT)

__ __ JohnT -:- have you tried recording your poems -:- Thurs, Feb 01, 2001 at 09:18:59 (GMT)

Sir Dave -:- It's done -:- Thurs, Feb 01, 2001 at 02:29:29 (GMT)

__ Scott T. -:- It's done -:- Sat, Feb 03, 2001 at 13:20:37 (GMT)

__ Steve -:- It's done - truly! -:- Fri, Feb 02, 2001 at 22:53:55 (GMT)

__ Zelda -:- on not being an ex -:- Fri, Feb 02, 2001 at 19:21:47 (GMT)

__ Twiz -:- Re: It's done -:- Fri, Feb 02, 2001 at 10:43:45 (GMT)

__ Tonette -:- A very healthy decision nt -:- Fri, Feb 02, 2001 at 10:08:18 (GMT)

__ Sandy -:- It's done -:- Thurs, Feb 01, 2001 at 23:53:08 (GMT)

__ Jerry -:- What number is this, Dave? -:- Thurs, Feb 01, 2001 at 22:16:15 (GMT)

__ la-ex -:- It's done: Gone, but not forgotten.... -:- Thurs, Feb 01, 2001 at 21:23:24 (GMT)

__ Suzanne -:- It's done -:- Thurs, Feb 01, 2001 at 21:22:58 (GMT)

__ Bin Liner -:- Many Thanks..... -:- Thurs, Feb 01, 2001 at 20:43:28 (GMT)

__ Francesca -:- Chill! No one says that you have to ... -:- Thurs, Feb 01, 2001 at 20:33:58 (GMT)

__ Joe -:- Let's Hear it for Sir Dave -:- Thurs, Feb 01, 2001 at 19:09:09 (GMT)

__ __ Joy -:- Let's Hear it for Sir Dave -:- Fri, Feb 02, 2001 at 03:17:58 (GMT)

__ __ __ Joy -:- P.S. -:- Fri, Feb 02, 2001 at 03:20:11 (GMT)

__ Jim -:- This is what really bugs me about what you wrote -:- Thurs, Feb 01, 2001 at 16:59:32 (GMT)

__ Michael Dettmers -:- It's done -:- Thurs, Feb 01, 2001 at 16:28:55 (GMT)

__ Ulf -:- It's done -:- Thurs, Feb 01, 2001 at 15:46:15 (GMT)

__ Gregg -:- As the Lady Macbeth said: -:- Thurs, Feb 01, 2001 at 15:25:26 (GMT)

__ __ cq -:- phew! - I thought the quote was going to be: -:- Thurs, Feb 01, 2001 at 18:35:47 (GMT)

__ __ __ JohnT -:- Hi cq -:- Thurs, Feb 01, 2001 at 22:35:16 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ cq -:- Hi JohnT -:- Fri, Feb 02, 2001 at 18:47:09 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ Selene -:- how true -:- Thurs, Feb 01, 2001 at 23:36:47 (GMT)

__ AJW -:- Au revoir -:- Thurs, Feb 01, 2001 at 14:02:53 (GMT)

__ Katie -:- David -:- Thurs, Feb 01, 2001 at 11:52:09 (GMT)

__ __ Monmot -:- David -:- Thurs, Feb 01, 2001 at 15:24:55 (GMT)

__ salam -:- Who did that? -:- Thurs, Feb 01, 2001 at 06:21:42 (GMT)

__ bill -:- It's done -:- Thurs, Feb 01, 2001 at 03:42:44 (GMT)

__ __ bill -:- It's done -:- Thurs, Feb 01, 2001 at 17:08:04 (GMT)

__ __ __ Cynthia -:- To Sir Dave...Many Thanks -:- Thurs, Feb 01, 2001 at 18:37:06 (GMT)

__ Roger eDrek -:- Say it ain't so, Sir Dave -:- Thurs, Feb 01, 2001 at 02:55:52 (GMT)

__ Steve Quint -:- Before You Go... -:- Thurs, Feb 01, 2001 at 02:36:09 (GMT)

__ __ Katie -:- David was knighted by the forum members -:- Thurs, Feb 01, 2001 at 11:53:23 (GMT)

__ __ __ janet -:- leave your truth site up. It's a goldmine. -:- Thurs, Feb 01, 2001 at 15:53:47 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ Kelly -:- leave your truth site up. It's a goldmine. -:- Thurs, Feb 01, 2001 at 18:37:08 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ Postie -:- But who'll guard the cheddar??????? -:- Thurs, Feb 01, 2001 at 18:28:23 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ Lesley -:- Thanks Sir Dave, -:- Thurs, Feb 01, 2001 at 20:10:56 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ Sir Dave -:- Blimey, I didn't expect all that!!! -:- Fri, Feb 02, 2001 at 00:14:50 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Robyn -:- Blimey, I didn't expect all that!!! -:- Sat, Feb 03, 2001 at 05:00:19 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Katie -:- Blimey, I didn't expect all that!!! -:- Fri, Feb 02, 2001 at 13:33:42 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ bill -:- Great, see you on AG forum..nt -:- Fri, Feb 02, 2001 at 13:16:32 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Patrick (formerly Anon) -:- And for newcomers Dave's Truth page is invaluable. -:- Fri, Feb 02, 2001 at 00:58:24 (GMT)

Aussi Ji -:- Amaroo rip off -:- Thurs, Feb 01, 2001 at 02:17:09 (GMT)

__ salam -:- There won't be 4 programs -:- Thurs, Feb 01, 2001 at 06:06:15 (GMT)

Joe -:- To Mike Finch -- more (civil) conversation -:- Thurs, Feb 01, 2001 at 01:39:15 (GMT)

__ Mike Finch -:- Challenges !! -:- Thurs, Feb 01, 2001 at 11:57:03 (GMT)

__ __ Conlon -:- Joe and Mike: demystifying the ''experience'' -:- Thurs, Feb 01, 2001 at 18:43:32 (GMT)

__ __ __ JTF -:- Good point, Conlon -:- Fri, Feb 02, 2001 at 12:54:30 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ Conlon -:- Guilty for having an ego, JTF -:- Fri, Feb 02, 2001 at 19:02:56 (GMT)

__ __ __ Postie -:- demystifying the ''experience'' -:- Thurs, Feb 01, 2001 at 19:23:05 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ Joe -:- Excellent Point -:- Thurs, Feb 01, 2001 at 20:06:39 (GMT)

__ __ Michael Dettmers -:- Challenges !! -:- Thurs, Feb 01, 2001 at 15:36:24 (GMT)

__ __ __ Mike Finch -:- Challenges !! -:- Fri, Feb 02, 2001 at 00:06:39 (GMT)

__ __ __ Francesca -:- Challenges !! -:- Thurs, Feb 01, 2001 at 18:37:12 (GMT)

__ __ AJW -:- Challenges !! -:- Thurs, Feb 01, 2001 at 14:31:53 (GMT)

__ __ __ Mike Finch -:- Easy Question -:- Thurs, Feb 01, 2001 at 15:43:48 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ Patrick (formerly Anon) -:- Some thoughts before bed -:- Fri, Feb 02, 2001 at 00:25:18 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ Susan -:- Bravo Patrick, a ' best of' post (nt) I -:- Sat, Feb 03, 2001 at 15:37:33 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ Bazza -:- Easy Question or two (or three) -:- Thurs, Feb 01, 2001 at 23:53:02 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ Mike Finch -:- Easy Question or two (or three) -:- Fri, Feb 02, 2001 at 00:04:41 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ Bazza -:- Stomachs in synch -:- Fri, Feb 02, 2001 at 00:27:43 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ AJW -:- Next Easy Question -:- Thurs, Feb 01, 2001 at 19:15:10 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ la-ex -:- Mike Finch,a coupla softball questions.... -:- Thurs, Feb 01, 2001 at 18:54:11 (GMT)

__ __ Jean-Michel -:- Then, I remember an instance where YOU were on -:- Thurs, Feb 01, 2001 at 14:19:33 (GMT)

__ __ JohnT -:- Challenges !! -:- Thurs, Feb 01, 2001 at 12:45:06 (GMT)

__ __ Jean-Paul -:- More Challenges !! -:- Thurs, Feb 01, 2001 at 12:34:16 (GMT)

__ __ __ Jim -:- You know, that's a DAMN good question! -:- Thurs, Feb 01, 2001 at 17:13:36 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ Jean-Paul -:- You know, that's a DAMN good question! -:- Sat, Feb 03, 2001 at 11:22:47 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ JohnT -:- He is a man without conscience -:- Thurs, Feb 01, 2001 at 17:23:33 (GMT)

__ __ __ Jean-Paul -:- Mountains of chalanges -:- Thurs, Feb 01, 2001 at 13:25:41 (GMT)

__ Tim G -:- Brilliant post Joe...Mike F please read nt -:- Thurs, Feb 01, 2001 at 09:30:58 (GMT)

Date: Fri, Feb 02, 2001 at 20:22:17 (GMT) From: Way Email: None To: Everyone Subject: Satpal is winning over Prempal in India? Message:

Satpal's Manav Dharam website is presently focusing on the earthquake in Gujrat. They seem to be doing a substantial job of providing some assistance to victims. Also new on their site is an account of the youngest son's coming of age ceremony of some sort at the Prem Nagar ashram. Very traditional. Since Prem Pal will soon be in India also, I wonder how much social welfare work he will engage in. I am also wondering, given the high visibility of Satpal's two sons, why don't we see Hansi and Amar giving powerful satsang like their cousins? I must say that Satpal seems to be a much better guru than his little brother. He seems to know how to make a cult and keep it thriving.

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Date: Tues, Feb 06, 2001 at 16:56:48 (GMT) From: DJURO Email: None To: Way Subject: Satpal is winning over Prempal in India? Message:

So, your new guru is Satpal?

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Date: Sat, Feb 03, 2001 at 05:25:27 (GMT) From: bill Email: None To: Way Subject: Gradeing leeches Message:

Hi Way, It IS bizarre to see the worship of the nephews of our lord. Hansi and Amar have probably seem dad stoned and drunk one too many times! And yelling at mom so many times.

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Date: Fri, Feb 02, 2001 at 22:03:05 (GMT) From: Kelly Email: None To: Way Subject: Satpal is winning over Prempal in India? Message:

As soon as I heard about this terrible tragedy, I knew that Satpal and pals would be in there helping. At least they try to do something to help on a practical level. I have been thinking lately about Prempal Rawat's lack of social conscience. I can think of so many examples of things he has said in recent years that have led me to believe he doesn't give a damn. Something he said in Brighton in '95 or '96 really shocked me. He said ....let them (i.e, the non premies) worry about the world's problems, let them worry about global warming, poverty, starvation etc. all we have to do is enjoy ourselves. LOUD CHEERS!! I remember being thoroughly appalled by this, but I quickly recovered and was soon able to join in the general atmosphere of 'gratitude and appreciation' It makes me feel sick now. Kelly

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Date: Fri, Feb 02, 2001 at 19:47:33 (GMT) From: Ulf Email: None To: Everyone Subject: polycytami-vera . very o.t. Message:

One of my old friend , just came back from the docter said that he was suffering of a sickness called: polycytami-vera. it is a sickness in the blood. perhaps someone here know about this ? and mayby they got a alternative cure , the docters a not sure what to do, any response from people who think they know about this wouldt be nice. Ulf

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Date: Sat, Feb 03, 2001 at 01:31:58 (GMT) From: Monmot Email: None To: Ulf Subject: polycytami-vera . very o.t. Message:

Dear Ulf: Check this out on webmd.com http://my.webmd.com/content/asset/adam_disease_polycythemia_vera There is no diseased under your spelling, but there is one called polcycthemia-vera, which also is a blood disorder, so I assume it's the same thing your friend has. If you have trouble with that link, go to www.webmd.com and put 'pollcythemia-vera' in the search engine on the first page. It looks like it's a serious disease, a precursor to leukemia, or leads to strokes and heart attacks due to clotting. Good luck

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Date: Fri, Feb 02, 2001 at 22:34:00 (GMT) From: runamok Email: None To: Ulf Subject: try onelist.com and search it or related topics nt Message:

nt

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Date: Fri, Feb 02, 2001 at 19:52:25 (GMT) From: JHB Email: None To: Ulf Subject: Recurrent Erosion Syndrome (also OT) Message:

I've got recurrent erosion syndrome. I was so pleased after 6 months when a specialist told me what I'd got. You know, what I've got has a name! Felt great. John recurrently eroding the syndrome known as Maharaji.

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Date: Sat, Feb 03, 2001 at 12:00:44 (GMT) From: ulf Email: None To: monmot. run.Jhb Subject: Recurrent Erosion Syndrome (also OT) Message:

Thanks for your response He will come here later today and then i will let him see your answers, and your links. Ulf

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Date: Fri, Feb 02, 2001 at 19:07:29 (GMT) From: Pauline Premie Email: None To: Everyone Subject: The Visions Sponsorship Program Message:

By the grace of the Speaker, who is so caring to give his time, free of charge, to speak on behalf of a number of organizations, about that love, that truth, that gift, that love and that experience, I now have a blissful new place to live. So, by the grace of the Master who is not and never said he was God, I am now again crashing with a PWK married couple, Steve and Joan, and their foure kids, Darshan and Devotion, who are in their 20s and completely in their minds, not understanding who the Master really is and being very negative about it, and their 3-year-old twins, Gratitute and Participation, who are beautifully devoted saints. I am not supposed to be using their Internet service, but by the grace of he whom we should not judge by his successful lifestyle, they have jobs and aren't home. Anyhow, since I am sponging, I mean living here free of charge, I am now able to sendin $50 every month out of my welfare payments to Visions through the Sponsorship Program so they can facilitate Diversification of materials supporting the understanding of the Knowledge process from introduction to practice. Isn't that just SO impressive? I mean, that's really important, and worth sponsoring, whatever that is. I also send $50 a month to Elan Vital so they can more actively squealch these awful ex-premie websites, and it is just fine that they do this because Elan Vital says it has a policy of supporting free speech and speaking out and defending that love, that truth and that gift, from all you miserable, negative people who are so attached to the materialism of this world (so unlike Maharaji). All us PWKs are able to live in the world but not of the world, and Maharaji is the best example of that. I know I am really, really in awe of him that he can have a $7 million yacht and not be attached to it at all. Why, I heard that he was impressed by Donald Trump when he got rid of HIS yacht, and so I'm sure Maharaji might just give that yacht away without even a second thought any day now. He is just that kind of master, so enigmatic he is. And I hope my donations to Elan Vital will help them write more answers to FAQs and that will help everyone have that understanding that all that stuff about Maharaji being God (which he never said he was), arti, feet-kissing, ashrams and all that stuff was just due to those confused Indian and Western premies, who literally forced he who says he is an ordinary person, to wear crowns and have people worship him. He had to work like a dog to get that turned around, you know. He dedication to spreading knowledge and not being god is literally bottomless.

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Date: Fri, Feb 02, 2001 at 19:16:20 (GMT) From: Pauline Premie Email: None To: Pauline Premie Subject: More about the yacht Message:

I also wanted to point out, that the $7 million yacht isn't even owned by Maharaji. It is actually owned by Kathy Gliebe and Mary Holle, who must be billionaires, and I think they just let Maharaji use it sometimes, when he gets depressed having to live in that house Elan Vital says is 'delapitdated' but has been 'added-to' over the years. I think it's in one of the poorest and most depressing areas of Malibu.

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Date: Sun, Feb 04, 2001 at 15:16:44 (GMT) From: Rosalia Email: None To: Pauline Premie Subject: You are wrong here Pauline Message:

Maharashi's old house was literally demolished and a brand new mansion was built to fit the Lard's personal preferences. Elan Vital doesn't explained that in their web site? He doesn't ask for much bur he DID asked for 'few' things for this new home. He owns the whole universe. What difference does it make what he asks for? Right? The ex-premies don't underdtand. They have too much mind and not enough heart. An no. The area where Maharashi lives is on a very nice strong mountain. Where do you get your information? JaiSatShitAnand

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Date: Fri, Feb 02, 2001 at 19:45:26 (GMT) From: Joy Email: None To: Pauline Premie Subject: Pauline, You're So Inspiring Message:

I just love ya! Where DID I go wrong? To think, if I'd just stayed with it, I could now be having THAT understanding and THAT experience, of which you are such a shining example. Maybe if I give ALL my money to Maharaji for the next few years, to make up for these 20-odd years of not participating, I might get as synchronized as you? Perhaps if I pray real hard for his Grace? (Oh please, please, please Maharaji, teach me devotion -- everybody remember that inspiring song??)

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Date: Fri, Feb 02, 2001 at 19:56:17 (GMT) From: Conlon Email: None To: Pauline Subject: Pauline, You just make me feel so guilty Message:

that I thought the Rev was greedy. Your satsang is making me change my mind and I think I have made a big mistake in turning away from our Living Lord who is so detached and divine. I am leaving Forum Five and going back to straightening out white table cloths and stacking up the propagation packages for the three church-ladies who are the only PWKs to come to video events in SF anymore.

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Date: Sat, Feb 03, 2001 at 00:18:00 (GMT) From: Pauline Premie Email: None To: Conlon Subject: Doing Participation Message:

Conlon, It is blissful that you are once again getting the proper, synchronized, understanding. Who are those wonderful, dedicated church ladies, who are holding down the propagation efforts in San Francisco? Are they extremely syncrhonized? Do they look and act like Maharaji, and/or Glenn Whittaker? Is one of them Marcia Leitner, who is very synchronized and on the board of Elan Vital? How about her very blissful husband, who was one of those people who forced Maharaji to have ashrams but now has moved on into less Hindu-concept-drenched ways? BTW, I may be coming through San Francisco one of these days on my way to do participation at Elan Vital in Southern California. I think I will have my participation application done in about three weeks, and then I am sure I will be contacted for a full-time, synchronized participation position in Thousand Oaks, California. Where do they hold video and Satellite events in San Francisco? Pauline

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Date: Sat, Feb 03, 2001 at 03:56:34 (GMT) From: Conlon Email: None To: Pauline Premie Subject: Pauline, now that you have shown me the light Message:

You are welcome to crash at my pad when you come to SF. Although I must tell you that the church-ladies would be very embarassed and discombobulated by you. They are so career oriented and buttoned down and NEVER talk about devotion anymore. You will freak them out. But don't worry because I'm just an old fag gopi and I understand you. Bliss-puppies like you were always welcome in my pad and I have paid so many of their bills and fed them in the past when they were sleeping in the cars just like you and I was then only one who had a job. It is not easy to keep your shit together when you are as blissed out as you are so I really feel for you. And I am so grateful that you have lifted the maya from my eyes and let me see that I was in my mind when I turned aaginst our living lord. I will introduce you to all the church-ladies but don't be surprised if they don't like your patchouli oil perfume and the hair under your blissful armpits and your passe Maharaji badges. I will protect you from their cold snobbish ways. But I will have to teach you the new church-speak because we are no longer a cult and you will make them all very unhappy if you use all those old politically correct gopi words. I will be happy to serve you, Pauline, because as everyone knows it is better to be a servant of a servant of the lord than a servant of the lord.

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Date: Sat, Feb 03, 2001 at 04:23:02 (GMT) From: Roger eDrek Email: drek@oz.net To: Conlon Subject: Conlon, an opportunity at TRAC awaits you Message:

Patrick Conlon, It is good that you have recovered from the uniminaginable and life ending sin of not loving our Lord, Maharaji. It's an easy thing to do when hanging around this cesspool of negativity here. Anyway, the FatGuru 2001 Millennium Reunion festival at TED Farkel's Transmission Repair and Auto-Knowledge Centre (TRAC) in Shaft, Alabama is going to be at least a week long of outdoor living and loving our Lord the old fashion way that we all so fondly love and remember. I've heard that you are something of a cook and at the festival that we are calling Millennium II we will need cooks and chefs to man the food tents. So, what do ya think? You'll have to quit your current job and get down to TRAC right away because a lot of premies are arriving early to do service to get the site ready for Maharaji. Hey, and any money or jumble or anything that can help out would be very synchronistically appreciated. JSCA Roger eDrek - once been there (negativity), but making a come back to the Feet

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Date: Sat, Feb 03, 2001 at 05:47:36 (GMT) From: Conlon Email: None To: Roger eDrek Subject: Oh, Roger, thank you thank you thank you Message:

I thought I had been condemned to the outer darkness for being a manmut. I am so grateful that the lord has given you the agyar to let me participate in a synchronized way again because the church-ladies were always telling me that I was a verboten Lone Ranger. The only thing I am worried about is that the will not be any people to practice my prachar on. If I get into my mind there's no telling what I will get up to. I am very fond of pigs. NO, not THAT way, I'm a vegetarian. I mean the other way and I'm scared I might not be able to remain celibate around TED for too long. I mean he just my kind of guy. I mean after pigs. And, if he smells as good - I mean bad - as I think he does I might not be able to control my homosexual urges. Is TED a homophobe, Roger? Because if he is then I will just have to leave all my faggy charms here in SF. God, I've got a lump in my throat just thinking about singing arti with all you guys. I can already feel my mind melting away with bliss and devotion. Bless you my brother in service.

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Date: Sat, Feb 03, 2001 at 07:01:17 (GMT) From: Roger eDrek Email: drek@oz.net To: Conlon Subject: well, I guess... Message:

I really don't know what to say. I mean with all that homosexual talk and all. Me, I've given all of the lusting for sex up to Maharaji and I'm free of it. Sometimes I feel a little funny, but that's when I dig down deep and really put the effort into remembering Holy Name. And eventually it all goes away. But I sure do feel frustrated a lot. Oh well. Can't have it all. I'm not sure how TED feels about that kind of thing so you might want to cool it. Remember, we are all gather at TRAC to see Maharaji and we should just remember Holy Name and try our best to soak up as much of the precious gift and opportunity that we can. And, I know that unless you don't mind being kidded about it in public I sure wouldn't let Maharaji know you were of that persuasion. No, sir! Maharaji thinks that stuff is way too funny and he'll let you know it and everybody else that's around too. I think Maharaji is kind of sensitive about that stuff because he was traumatized when he first came to the West when he was subjected to a lot of nudity and he was so young and innocent and came from a good family and never had thoughts like that and was pure, you know, and he was really in that Holy Name, you know, and he was busy learning to speak 7 languages all at the same time, you know, and like the Perfect Masters before him he has come to save mankind, but, you know, this time, like, I know for sure, that he has come with more power than ever, you know? So, I wouldn't mess around with Maharaji because he could zap ya or melt you in his mouth or something if he wanted, that is. Oh, man! I'm so blissed out now. I'm so high from this Knowledge. I'm hearing beautiful music like the ringing of bells. I'm on a swing, you know, and it's like my Master is pushing. Bhole Shri Sat Guru Dev Maharaj Ki Jai, brother and sisters!

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Date: Sat, Feb 03, 2001 at 05:56:28 (GMT) From: Thelma Email: None To: Conlon Subject: Fer Crisakes, Roger, don't let that fruit near TED Message:

The fucking fag is already drooling here over the dining room table saying, ''Cheese, cheese.'' He is sly and just wants to get into TED's pants. He loves rough trade and is a real perv. He is fooling you just like he fooled all the brothers in the ashram in 1974 in Copenhagen when he pretended to give them ''massages'' in the first aid tent.

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Date: Sat, Feb 03, 2001 at 06:49:36 (GMT) From: Roger eDrek Email: drek@oz.net To: Thelma Subject: Fer Crisakes, Roger, don't let that fruit near TED Message:

pretended to give them ''massages'' hmmm, that explains a lot of things that have been puzzling me since those days. It's ok, Thelma, regardless of 'where' people are at they are welcome in the ol' time guru love fest at TRAC. Our Lord is getting so desperate... In fact, he's getting so desperate that he might have to sell something because he can't make the payments. Anyway, our Lord is hungry for new aspirants regardless of how they want to worship him even if means going back to the Hindu influenced days of the '70s. Now, if Conlon is into rough trade TED has a body shop where dents and dings need be pounded out and he can let his aggression out there. I'm sure that TED would be very appreciative of the synchronistic effort. Also, Thelma it looks like we're going to have a childcare need with people like Atticus Finch and his daughter Scout showing up. As a woman I assume that you might be good with children?

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Date: Sat, Feb 03, 2001 at 09:07:16 (GMT) From: Thelma Email: None To: Roger eDrek Subject: I'm a self-made woman, Roger, Message:

and I can't stand kids. You'll just have to ask someone else to do that service. But maybe TED can take some of the dings out of my silicone implants. Ever since I turned 29 they've been acting up. Anyway, thanks for your offer to come down to TRAC and do some service. It's very tempting what with TED still enjoying arti and being so deliciously almost campily retro with his devotion. I've always said that, if the Rev Rawat just went back to wearing all that gorgeous Hindu drag and just came straight out and said she was the Queen, er I mean God, I'd be back in a flash doing all that delicious whoopdedoop foot-kissing stuff and lusting after her plump titties and chubby cheeks. God, how I loved that stuff. Sure it was gaudy in a Hindu sort of way and not very classy but it was FUN, darling. But, when the silly bitch began to call herself the Master, (and her no better than a drag queen on Polk Street) and turned the exciting weird Bhakti Juju cult into a boring old CHURCH full of frumpy old nazi nannies and their pussy-whipped closet-case husbands, now that got my tits in a tangle. Who do she think she be, as my friend Akeesha La Toyota from Oakland says. So thanks but no thanks - not until TED promises to dress in a tutu with a mala and do a strip tease while he sings arti. PS As for that Conlon guy - I would not trust his newfound remorse at being a manmut. I know him. He's after TED's you know what. He's a carnivorous oinker and just loves those hogfucking southern boys with that little extra overhang. The last time we got drunk together he told me that most of the ashram brothers didn't even know what it was for until he gave them a ''nassage.''

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Date: Fri, Feb 02, 2001 at 22:42:15 (GMT) From: Joy Email: None To: Conlon Subject: The New Yacht Needs Message:

solid gold toilets and plumbing fixtures, I bet. It probably just has ordinary ones. Maybe we should do a fundraising drive? I mean, since he's the Lord, he doesn't deserve any less, does he? If enough people give their salaries and welfare checks, we just might be able to surprise him! But then again, he's in the yacht but not of it, so it probably doesn't matter THAT much to him (but I wouldn't bet on it).

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Date: Fri, Feb 02, 2001 at 19:04:27 (GMT) From: cq Email: None To: Everyone Subject: In touch with reality? What do you think: Message:

Edited excerpt, Maharaji in Rome, 30th September 2000 'How would you measure a day? How much do you think a day is worth? A million dollars? Two million dollars? How would you measure it? What is it worth to you? Now, if you really stopped and thought about it, you would say, 'Well, actually, it's priceless. It is worth more than all the money in the world.' And how wise you are. Because this is true. I don't know anybody who doesn't want to be rich. The poor want to be rich, and even the very rich want to be a little more rich. It is one of those things. People just want to be rich. Yet, all the money of the world was given to you today. As it has been given to you every day, because that's what a day is worth. Now my question is, what do you have to show for it?'

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Date: Sat, Feb 03, 2001 at 04:29:04 (GMT) From: Daneane Email: None To: cq Subject: M prison lectures?(nt) Message:

nt

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Date: Fri, Feb 02, 2001 at 23:18:24 (GMT) From: Bin Liner Email: None To: cq Subject: Your'e only alive by my grace .... Message:

....is what he's getting at , but hasn't the balls to say upfront anymore . The 'show for it ' bit , translates into litespeak as , surrender to the lotus feet of Satguru , or you're a lowlife scumbag etc . The reality he's in touch with (whatever it may be) has stayed rock solid consistent down the years . Indeed for an off & on type like myself , whenever I've gone to see him in my 'on' phases , that has always been the most striking thing . The words & presentation may be different but the message is the same . I AM GOD & YOU COME TO WORSHIP ME BECAUSE I AM GOD. YOU & I ONLY COME TOGETHER ON THAT UNSPOKEN UNDERSTANDING. Rawat is one of those rare people who have created their own 'reality' & taken a whole load of other people along with them . How it all ends up we shall just have to wait & see.

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Date: Sat, Feb 03, 2001 at 14:47:38 (GMT) From: cq Email: None To: Bin Liner Subject: you mean unspoken misunderstanding? Message:

Enjoying life is apparently obligatory in the Maha's world, and if you don't feel gratitude for being alive, well you're obviously not a good advertisement for the knowledge. That seems to be the attitude that he's fostering, and it's an appallingly insensitive one. In fact the constant pretence at happiness, and the denial of life's more difficult (but no less real) problems could well be sowing the seeds for some premies to turn into out-and-out delusional psychotics whose grasp on reality is as shaky as the Maha's. These people are going to need counselling, poor sods. It's amazingly insensitive for a multi-millionaire like Rawat to utter the kind of 'each day is priceless' spiel. Coming from the likes of Tiny Tim (remember him - from Dickens' 'A Christmas Carol'?) it would actually mean something. But coming from a fat cat like Rawat - ... sheer pukesville.

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Date: Sun, Feb 04, 2001 at 14:49:28 (GMT) From: Jean-Paul Email: None To: cq Subject: you mean unspoken misunderstanding? Message:

M says look inside, there is happiness. Usually, when you look inside, you see a lot of things, continual thinkings, emotions, unconscious forces. M doesn't speak about that. I think it is dangerous to introduce meditation the way m does. You don't deal with what you are but look for something. The repression is heavy and you don't learn anything about yourself. Even moments of peace are ephemeral. The method of m is bad. He speaks of happiness but doesn't know the way to deal with what we are. He makes everybody feel guilty. Not only he is not the lord but he is not even a good professor of meditation. So what is he?

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Date: Mon, Feb 05, 2001 at 18:39:18 (GMT) From: cq Email: None To: Jean-Paul Subject: what is he? Message:

what indeed, Jean-Paul? Imagine if you had at your disposal all the combined efforts of all the people who have taken 'knowledge' over the last thirty years. Imagine what you could do with all that devotion and self-sacrifice. And then look at what the Maha has done with that opportunity. . . . . You ask: 'What is he?' My answer: a wastrel. If premies' energies had been channeled into a cause that wasn't constantly drained by his extravagance; if our sense of community hadn't been split by divisive quarrels caused by the excessive demands on our trust; and if our trust hadn't been abused by a power-tripping narcissist such as he, then what could have been achieved? . . but then, what point is there in wondering what could have been? One thing I know for sure, the trust in him has gone. As for the trust in what brought us all together - the chance to work for a better world - well, idealistic it might have been, but at least it wasn't a shameful cause to commit oneself to.

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Date: Mon, Feb 05, 2001 at 18:58:21 (GMT) From: Steve Quint Email: the_avenger55@hotmail.com To: cq Subject: May I Repost This? Message:

If I don't hear from you in the negative, I think I'm going to repost your beautiful words. Steve

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Date: Mon, Feb 05, 2001 at 18:55:41 (GMT) From: Steve Quint Email: the_avenger55@hotmail.com To: cq Subject: Beautiful Post Message:

A joke: What's the definition of trust? Two cannibals giving each other oral pleasure. Steve

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Date: Sat, Feb 03, 2001 at 16:07:52 (GMT) From: Steve Quint Email: the_avenger55@hotmail.com To: cq Subject: There Are Different Kinds Of Teachers Message:

I found this in response to a search I just did after reading your post: In class today we were discussing Mr. Barringer's response to Alice's love letter in the movie Up the Down Staircase. It occurred to me later that he is a perfect example of a teacher in Wong's survival stage. He seems jaded and self-absorbed, the kind of teacher to whom teaching is just a job to be done and gotten over with. He seems to have no desire to impact students' lives. The only time we see him making any impression at all on a student is when, by his callous attitude, he drives Alice to attempt suicide. Mr. Barringer was the worst kind of teacher--the kind that lacks compassion and feels no accountability for their influence in students. Please, all of you who plan to pursue classroom teaching--never let yourselves turn into that! I think this description aptly fits someone we all know. My friend likes to say that the best teachers teach without the student even knowing they're learning. I think we've seen the worst. Steve

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Date: Sat, Feb 03, 2001 at 16:24:42 (GMT) From: cq Email: None To: Steve Quint Subject: premies are tied to their teacher's apron-strings Message:

- and he's tied to their purse-strings! Sooner or later, the more independent premies will suss that they'll learn far more about themselves when they find the courage to leave the teacher behind. What's being a premie all about? It's like you've passed your driving test but you still want the instructor sat next to you all the time. Didn't someone say something along the lines of: 'the true guru is one who realises that the fulfilment of the teaching is for your disciples to realise they don't need a guru any more'. Something like that.

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Date: Sat, Feb 03, 2001 at 17:59:22 (GMT) From: Steve Quint Email: the_avenger55@hotmail.com To: cq and everyone Subject: What I'd Like To Know Message:

Pretty much everyone who posts here agrees that m has abused his position and needs to taken to task for what he's done. What I've never completely understood is how we bunch of intelligent people seem to be ignoring the issue of how we got hooked for significant varying degrees of time in the cult. Maybe I have to figure this one out for myself - God knows I've tried and still haven't reached a satisfactory explanation. I haven't received much help here. Am I being lazy in asking other people to figure this one out for me? In any case, it can't hurt to try again. If knowledge is good and the teacher bad, at least that's an explanation. This is a very difficult are for me. Can anybody help me with this one? Steve

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Date: Sat, Feb 03, 2001 at 20:30:41 (GMT) From: Lesley Email: None To: Steve Quint Subject: My take on this is Message:

that there are obviously factors that predispose a person to join a cult. In my case these are acid trips and more importantly, father/daughter problems. But the more interesting part is your musing that the K is good and that is what sucked us in. I disagree with that, look at all the people who got into TM. Lots of people did that and THEN went on to become premies. Not because the meditation technique didn't work either! My musings run along the lines of what gave it the juice? The Messiah, that's who. I haven't come across anyone who had a hard time leaving a meditation technique. I think this is because Rawat perverted basic emotional bonding. Emotional bonding doesn't just go away because you want it to, and it is impervious to mere sophistry. Regards, Lesley

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Date: Sat, Feb 03, 2001 at 20:41:22 (GMT) From: Lesley Email: None To: Lesley Subject: Plus Message:

One thing I have thought about a LOT, is why didn't anyone sit me down and make me see sense. Looking back, I can see that plenty of people did say something, and did so consistently, but then kinda just shook their head. I have a theory about this. Our parents, who after all determined the society we were born into, were in WWII, either as children or combatants. This was a bloody conflict that got personal for everyone. I think this had an effect, they were withdrawn and in shock, and they said make peace not war, don't confront, don't communicate. The emotional bonding will not be challenged without real, strong, committed, communication. Sorry this is a bit scrappy, however I guess you are intelligent enough to figure out what I am saying!

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Date: Sun, Feb 04, 2001 at 18:59:06 (GMT) From: Lesley Email: None To: steve quint Subject: apologies Message:

I have just read what I wrote yesterday and realised it sounds quite rude and dismissive......not at all how I was feeling! apologies. Regards, Lesley

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Date: Sat, Feb 03, 2001 at 18:20:54 (GMT) From: cq Email: None To: Steve Quint Subject: This has GOT to be the question we've all avoided Message:

Avoid might be too strong a word. Then again ... . . It's such a good question Steve, it bears repeating: ' ... how we bunch of intelligent people seem to be ignoring the issue of how we got hooked for significant varying degrees of time in the cult' . . I need to give this some thought. While I'm doing that (and I hope to get back to you after the weekend) - now would be the right time to include the following quote: 'Another necessary element in becoming an adult is realizing that ultimately others cannot know what's best for you. Authoritarian power, whether political or ideological, has been the major form of control throughout the history of our species' childhood and youth. This includes looking for a savior to make things right. The very idea of a savior contains the assumption that such a person knows what's better for you than you do, thus making whatever the presumed savior says unchallengeable. The savior approach to problem-solving not only keeps people childish, it is the basic mode of the old paradigm. It has also justified the greatest violence and abuses. The old paradigms all have some authority--be it a leader, wise man, guru, avatar, representative of god, or prophet--telling the rest of us what life is about and how to lead it. How to replace this old methodology that we are outgrowing is a major issue facing humanity.' from the conclusion to: The Guru Papers - Masks of Authority (Kramer and Alstad).

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Date: Sat, Feb 03, 2001 at 23:31:42 (GMT) From: Katie Email: None To: cq Subject: This has GOT to be the question we've all avoided Message:

I have thought about it a lot (it IS a good question, too - thanks Steve, and to CQ for highlighting it). I agree somewhat with what Lesley said about the emotional bonding, although that wasn't the entire case for me. Some other reasons - for me - were: 1. I desperately needed a structured environment at the time - a substitute family (which the premies DID provide to a certain extent). Of course, the 'family' wasn't all that healthy, but at the time it was a lot better than my real family. 2. Maharaji appealed to a certain sense of spiritual superiority in me. In other words, I felt that I was somehow more spiritually advanced because I had actually found the Perfect Master of this age and discover THE WAY to enlightenment). 3. Immaturity, lack of education (formal or otherwise), and lack of skepticism - for example, I believed that there WAS 'one true way', AND I believed in 'enlightenment', and I didn't examine Maharaji or his organization very closely. 4. My own sense of inferiority and guilt - I didn't experience much from meditation, but instead of thinking that the techniques were no good for me, I thought that it was my fault. I was attracted to the love, devotion & surrender trip - thinking M was god and I was a miserable worm. Unfortunately, this didn't make me feel better about myself at all (gee, wonder why?) One quote I really like about the desirability of 'killing one's ego' is 'You've got to be somebody before you can be nobody'. I am sure there are other reasons, but these were probably the biggest ones for me.

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Date: Sat, Feb 03, 2001 at 23:44:31 (GMT) From: Katie Email: None To: all Subject: Oops, one more BIG reason Message:

5. I wanted to change the world for the better. M REALLY appealed to this feeling in a lot of us - a way to solve all the problems in the world at one time! ('I swear on the bible that I will establish peace in this world', and so forth)

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Date: Sun, Feb 04, 2001 at 00:38:46 (GMT) From: moldy warp Email: None To: Katie Subject: Oops, one more BIG reason Message:

spot on -- all your list i could have written as my reasons.XXX

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Date: Sat, Feb 03, 2001 at 18:56:07 (GMT) From: Kelly Email: None To: cq and Steve Subject: This has GOT to be the question we've all avoided Message:

This is one of the questions I am working hard on trying to find my own personal answer to. I am reading The Guru Papers at the moment and finding it very helpful. Sometimes it seems as if it's been written specifically with Rawat in mind! I'm just dipping into it, picking out chapter headings that interest me. The one I'm on now is called 'Healing crippled self trust' highly relevant to me at the moment. I recommend it. Kelly

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Date: Sat, Feb 03, 2001 at 19:43:26 (GMT) From: cq Email: None To: Kelly Subject: also recommended Message:

Hi Kelly, Thanks for the recommendation. You going to be at the Latvian nite soon? if so - hope to see you there! Your post inspired me to at least check out a review of the book. One of these days I'll get round to asking my local library to order it (that way it doesn't just get stuck on my own bookshelves after I've read it!). Check this review of Joel Kramer's and Diana Alstad's book, from http://fic.ic.org/cmag/88/bkrev88.html quote: 'An 'authoritarian' belief system, they say, is one which is unchallengeable, and in which someone or something other than the individual knows 'what's best' for someone else. They assert that the ideologies of new (and old) religions, and the belief systems and practices of most societal institutions are intrinsically authoritarian if there is no way to take issue with their basic suppositions. This is not only harmful to individuals, they say, but to our society as well. They carefully distinguish between power--'the capacity of an individual or system to influence in any way other individuals or systems'--and the authoritarian abuse of power. They also distinguish between hierarchy--which occurs naturally in physical, biological, and social levels--and the authoritarian use of hierarchy. While strongly disliking authoritarian hierarchies, the authors don't want to do away with hierarchy itself. 'Any attempt to do so can only succeed by supplanting one for another,' they write. 'This is because the nature of power is that it never stays equally distributed, and any attempt to force equality of power itself becomes hierarchical.' Kramer and Alstad say that hierarchy is a way of structuring power, authority a way of exercising power, and authoritarianism a way of protecting and ensuring one's power. Authority may be invested in a position, a role, or some perceived capacity within an individual --such as, in the case of a spiritual leader, with presumed special knowledge. The authors dissect spiritual groups and new religions (which they unfortunately term 'cults')--the most extreme examples of one person giving power to another--because these groups sharply illuminate the issues surrounding authoritarian power. Spiritual leaders, generically termed 'gurus,' are authoritarian when they expect to be obeyed without question, and either punish or refuse to deal with those who do not. (i.e. obey them without question). However, authority based on a leadership role, or even on special spiritual knowledge, does not have to be authoritarian. Experts, counselors, and teachers can share their expertise without expecting either agreement or obedience. Part One, 'Personal Masks,' offers fascinating insights into the leader/follower relationship and explains why we sometimes mistrust ourselves and seek exterior authority. Topics include the seduction of surrender; authoritarian ploys--inducing surrender and maintaining dominance; the stages of spiritual groups --proselytizing to paranoia; the attractions of hierarchy; sexual manipulation--the betrayal of trust, spiritual hedonism; the traps of spiritual leadership--narcissism and adulation, deceit and corruption; channelling disembodied authorities; 'do we create our own reality?'; and healing crippled self-trust. In Part Two, 'Ideological Masks,' Kramer and Alstad turn to the usually veiled authoritarianism imbedded in the world views and values of Western society--in fundamentalist religion as well as Eastern spiritual traditions, intimate relationships, and addictions. If we want to survive as a species, given the mess we've gotten ourselves into, they argue, we must grow up and refuse to either surrender to, or indulge in, authoritarianism. One of the most compelling, 'can't put it down' books I've read in a long time, The Guru Papers offers challenging concepts--for both egalitarian communities attempting to erase all power differences, and high-demand spiritual communities alike. ' endquote

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Date: Sat, Feb 03, 2001 at 21:34:48 (GMT) From: Kelly Email: None To: cq Subject: also recommended Message:

Hi cq, Yep, I'll be there, and I'll bring my copy of The Guru Papers, I'm sure to have finished it by then. That way it won't get stuck on my bookshelf either! I agree with that review, it is an utterly compelling 'can't put down' book for me right now. I look forward to meeting you. Kelly

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Date: Sun, Feb 04, 2001 at 00:45:20 (GMT) From: moldy warp Email: None To: Kelly Subject: also recommended Message:

The book Sacred Science by somebody Heron (John i think)Into person-centred growth . Good stuff about what's wrong with following Eastern gurus (or any authority figure) and trying to get out of the world.

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Date: Sun, Feb 04, 2001 at 09:52:44 (GMT) From: Kelly Email: None To: moldy warp Subject: Thanks, I'll check it out. nt Message:

rt...arti?

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Date: Sat, Feb 03, 2001 at 16:14:25 (GMT) From: Steve Quint Email: the_avenger55@hotmail.com To: Everyone Subject: The Quote Comes From U. Of South Carolina Message:

Department of Education bulletin board. Steve

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Date: Fri, Feb 02, 2001 at 19:31:00 (GMT) From: Way Email: None To: cq Subject: What do you have to show for it? Message:

Hey Rawat, With all due respect, (which is none), I've been wondering the same thing about your premies. They've been practicing the most perfect Knowledge for decades now, and what do they have to show for it? Seems to me, your premies are no more enlightened or peaceful or wise or happy than anybody else. What do think the problem might be? And Rawat, I could ask you the same question. You've been living in the West for how many years now? 30? You brought the most Perfect Knowledge with you, the Knowledge that every human being needs. You have been devotedly spreading this perfection to Westeners for all these 30 years. Now, my question to you is What do you have to show for it? Let's see, USA population: 300 million, number of USA premies: 1800. What percentage is that? And what do you think the problem might be?

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Date: Fri, Feb 02, 2001 at 12:49:58 (GMT) From: Patrick (formerly Anon) Email: None To: Everyone Subject: Maharaji's new yacht - is it a guarded secret?? Message:

Did someone say here that Elan Vital are apparently denying the existence of M's extremely expensive luxury yacht? That sucks if it is true, because I happen to know absolutely of it's recent purchase, whereabouts, and it's HUGE cost and of how Maharaji uses it for fun. Why is it such a guarded secret? I guess because it cannot be easily shown to exactly be an example of another important means by which Maharaji can do his ever so important work for humanity - a large luxury yacht is generally seen as being something that extremely rich people buy either to flaunt their wealthy status, for no noble reason, generally just to indulge their pleasure and to swank. I think we should draw some attention to this if indeed Elan Vital (ie. Maharaji) is concerned that it remain a secret. Just been thinking about that for some reason this morning. Anyway I must go and do some work! Some of us have to work even harder than M to maintain our considerably less lavish lifestyles. Shit! I would love a nice boat - I'm jealous!

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Date: Sun, Feb 04, 2001 at 04:03:36 (GMT) From: jondon Email: None To: Patrick (formerly Anon) Subject: How do you hide a 106' Yacht? Message:

Simple. Have it stored in a boatyard, keep it within a painting shed or canopy. There are really only a few such places that can handle the big ones. Ft. Laud. has a few places, Miami and Palm Beach. Unless he has fled back to the West Coast with it, it is probably underwraps down there. I know he won't be back in to Newport because he reads this Forum, but that is fine. I don't want him in the New England Area. I do have some eyes and ears at the docks keeping vigil this summer, they will let me know if the 106' Westport yacht 'Serenity' (or any other 106' Westport) docks or anchors in Narragansett Bay. The boating people are worse gossip mongers than the premies.

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Date: Sun, Feb 04, 2001 at 13:15:35 (GMT) From: Jethro Email: None To: jondon Subject: It would be easier to call in David Copperfield.nt Message:

nt

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Date: Fri, Feb 02, 2001 at 23:42:42 (GMT) From: Cynthia Email: None To: Patrick (formerly Anon) Subject: Maharaji's new yacht - is it a guarded secret?? Message:

Hi Patrick, Funny you were thinking about the yacht today, because I was too. I have a close relative in Rhode Island who told me that she/he would be very willing to go to Newport this spring/summer and hunt down that yacht and take pictures. In addition, this relation of mine has a spouse who is an air traffic controller in R.I. and is more than willing to ''notice'' if the big M arrives in his aircraft. Being a high ranking FAA employee, she/he has full access to all areas of the airport in the area, so be patient, we may be able to to actually personally confront the big M about his aircraft. The yacht is very definitely not a part of Mr. Rawat's propagation agenda and it probably would be a great embarrassment to him if all his premies around the world (especially the 3rd world) knew how he likes to blow their money! Ya hear that Maharaji, we're on to you, ya creep! You need a yacht like I need YOU! Best to you Patrick, Cynthia

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Date: Fri, Feb 02, 2001 at 14:44:57 (GMT) From: JTF Email: None To: Patrick (formerly Anon) Subject: rawat once used a yacht as a wealth meter Message:

Sometime in the 90's, he mentioned (at a cult gathering)that wealth is judged by not what you have but what you no longer wanted and were willing to discard. He used Donald Trump as an example-saying that Trump's old yacht was worth so much but his discarding of it showed his wealth more than the up-grade did?

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Date: Sat, Feb 03, 2001 at 10:55:36 (GMT) From: janet Email: None To: JTF Subject: more twisting truth right there-shows what HE knws Message:

..Trump had to sell the yacht , as did adnan kashoggi, in order to meet debts when their respective lifestyles suffered drop in net worth and their fortunes fell into distress. 'having no use for it' is asabaout as far from a grasp of the situation as he could get..

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Date: Fri, Feb 02, 2001 at 14:09:14 (GMT) From: Katie Email: None To: Patrick (formerly Anon) Subject: IMHO, the yacht is supposed to be a secret Message:

Based on what I've read on the forum and heard from people off the forum, EV doesn't want anyone to know about the yacht - or at least Maharaji's connection with (de facto ownership of?)the yacht. The informaton about the yacht that's already been posted here seems to be causing pain to EV - for some reason. Maybe M doesn't like it.

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Date: Fri, Feb 02, 2001 at 13:07:27 (GMT) From: JHB Email: None To: Patrick (formerly Anon) Subject: Maharaji's new yacht - is it a guarded secret?? Message:

Patrick, You may have mentioned this before, but could you give us some details as to how you know about the yacht? Thanks, John

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Date: Fri, Feb 02, 2001 at 14:27:19 (GMT) From: Patrick Email: None To: JHB Subject: Maharaji's new yacht - is it a guarded secret?? Message:

You may have mentioned this before, but could you give us some details as to how you know about the yacht? Yes, I have some friends who are directly in the know. In as much as they are premies who are still involved but who are fence-sitting with regard to their loyalties, it obviously is not appropriate that I say who they are. I was told about the yacht -the cost -which I can't remember the figure - the use and the whereabouts - a month or two ago. I did not seek this information but was told , I imagined, because the person felt that it was something Maharaji was well into at the time and they thought I would be interested just in conversation. I didn't realise at the time that it was so secret and was not so interested really.

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Date: Fri, Feb 02, 2001 at 15:12:12 (GMT) From: Jean-Michel Email: None To: Patrick Subject: Here's more info reg The Divine Yacht Message:

Everything on m's 106 foot yacht By the way: the info on m's G-IV should be udpated, as he's upgraded to G-V last fall ...... Beside this, I wonder why they're so secretive about the yacht! Quite some x-rated pams have already been invited on it on several occasions, private meetings etc Is it used for some other 'private' business? Like tours to the Caiman Islands or anywhere else?

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Date: Fri, Feb 02, 2001 at 17:29:49 (GMT) From: Francesca Email: None To: Jean-Michel Subject: Kathy Gliebe (yacht owner) OGM Message:

I remember her! She was a nice person, at least when I knew her. She was 'beamed up' out of the LA ashram community to the Office of Guru Maharaji Ji in Miami. (I'm guessing around '79. It was the time of the great sucking sound, as folks with computer, office, organizational and technical skills were asported to M's Miami Machine, leaving behind a trail of debt, broken leases, poor ashrams who had lost their main breadwinners, etc.) I was told that she had taken out a loan from her family in the amount of, I believe it was $11,000. I was made ashram coordinator in LA right around the same time frame. One of my tasks was to get all the ashrams to pay off the loan, even thought Kathy was transferred. Somehow the $11,000 debt remained with us and if we did not make the payments, it would reflect poorly on OGM and M. To be fair, the LA community had just bought the Loyola Theater, so the money could have even gone for that, who knows? Like a (sickeningly) good foot soldier, I squeezed every dime out of the ashrams, including a large balloon payment. This was not easy to do, as the Malibu ashrams tended to live on a shoestring, with many of the 'shrammers doing full-time and part-time service at the res -- i.e. not much money to spare in those houses. Also, many folks with crafts skills that were hard workers were asported to DECCA for the plane project. Some of the premies who didn't like to hold jobs thought I was a ball buster, because they moved into the ashram to lose all their responsibilities and hence their responsibility to 'work in the world.' On top of that, we had to pay off a loan, keep the houses going, get people to programs, and a lot of the best and brightest had gone to Miami. I was glad to be transferred to SF (Berkeley) in 1980, where I met Pat Conlon and many other old and new friends.

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Date: Fri, Feb 02, 2001 at 17:51:53 (GMT) From: Joe Email: None To: Francesca Subject: Mary Holle (yacht owner) Message:

Mary Holle is Secretary and on the Board of Directors of this shell company that Maharaji set up to ostensibly own his yacht. I wonder if he did that so he could claim that it isn't his. What a joke. Mary Holle and I received knowledge in the same knowledge session in Omaha, Nebraska, from Mahatma Vijayanand, a Mahatma who later rejected Maharaji after he was forced to bag nuts at Rainbow Grocery in Denver. Mary and I lived in the first Premie House I lived in, later at COLL in San Antonio, and then she was in Denver at IHQ for a long time doing communications. I saw her again in Miami at IHQ where she was doing the same thing. I think she later went to DECA, and there was a big scandal when she ran off with one of the ashram brothers. For that, she was banished to Minneapolis. Mary is a nice person, very sweet, but one of the most die-hard premies I ever met. He brother, David, was also a die-hard premie, but much more rigid that Mary. He was a nazi terror in that first house I lived in. If I remember correctly, I think Mary is also an officer of the shell corporation that owns Maharaji's Gulfstream Plan. I guess Mary has worked her up to the highest echelons of PAMS. I hope for her own sake she is sure those companies have D&O insurance.

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Date: Fri, Feb 02, 2001 at 17:48:17 (GMT) From: Joe Email: None To: Francesca Subject: Mary Holle (yacht owner) Message:

Mary Holle is Secretary and on the Board of Directors of this shell company that Maharaji set up to ostensibly own his yacht. I wonder if he did that so he could claim that it isn't his. What a joke. Mary Holle and I received knowledge in the same knowledge session in Omaha, Nebraska, from Mahatma Vijayanand, a Mahatma who later rejected Maharaji after he was forced to bag nuts at Rainbow Grocery in Denver. Mary and I lived in the first Premie House I lived in, later at COLL in San Antonio, and then she was in Denver at IHQ for a long time doing communications. I saw her again in Miami at IHQ where she was doing the same thing. I think she later went to DECA, and there was a big scandal when she ran off with one of the ashram brothers. For that, she was banished to Minneapolis. Mary is a nice person, very sweet, but one of the most die-hard premies I ever met. He brother, David, was also a die-hard premie, but much more rigid that Mary. I guess Mary has worked her up to the highest echelons of PAMS.

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Date: Fri, Feb 02, 2001 at 15:08:40 (GMT) From: Joe Email: None To: Patrick Subject: The Yacht Message:

In the archives are a number of threads that have information on Maharaji's yacht, including its approximate value of $7 million (US), the shell company that owns the yacht, where it is registered (Rhode Island because Rhode Island, being the port of yachts of many of the rich and famous has the most secretive disclosure laws on yachts), the type, etc. Even a picture of the kind of yacht it is. It is HUGE and it's obscene. I think it is kept a secret because even Maharaji, as out of touch with ordinary people as he is, might actually realize that some people might not want to donate money to him if they think he spends it on useless and indulgent things like this.

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Date: Fri, Feb 02, 2001 at 15:12:54 (GMT) From: Joe Email: None To: Joe Subject: The Yacht -- Also Message:

G, who is a bit of a whiz when it comes to research, uncovered a lot of the information on Maharaji's yacht from public records. I think the company that owns Maharaji's yacht is Premo, Inc., or something close to that. Also, a number of premies (now recent ex-premies)have corroborated the existence of Maharaji's yacht, it's value, etc. I think some rich premies, who donate a lot of money, have actually been taken on M's yacht.

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Date: Sun, Feb 04, 2001 at 11:45:29 (GMT) From: Patrick (anon) Email: None To: Joe Subject: he needs a bigger yacht for his 'copter now. Message:

Apparently Maharaji is currently looking to get a new bigger yacht which will allow him to land his helicopter on it - just heard this from a premie . Well, if that's what he wants and premies want to give him then who am I to object? I guess there's no end to his ballooning wealth and power. Yawn.

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Date: Mon, Feb 05, 2001 at 00:01:05 (GMT) From: la-ex Email: None To: Patrick (anon) Subject: Are you serious,or just pulling our leg?nt Message:

nt

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Date: Sun, Feb 04, 2001 at 20:56:59 (GMT) From: Bin Liner Email: None To: Patrick (anon) Subject: Ballooning wealth , maybe , power no . nt Message:

nt

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Date: Fri, Feb 02, 2001 at 04:37:52 (GMT) From: Bazza Email: None To: Everyone Subject: Jeez Mike you've put on weight! Message:

Used to be such a rake, as I remember!! Found your website, I knew you were smart, but had no idea you were that smart!! (check out the resume). Shoot, how could someone with your brains fall for the old Indian rope trick along with the rest of us? Very impressive - glad to see you've done so well for yourself, seriously. Mr. Mike Finch Esq.

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Date: Fri, Feb 02, 2001 at 14:44:44 (GMT) From: Mike Finch Email: None To: Bazza Subject: Jeez Mike you've put on weight! Message:

You don't have to tell me. The GOOD news is that I am shedding it now; could this be a token of shedding much else besides ?! (That sounds a bit pompous). On the subject of being pompous, you quote my site with the link 'Mr. Mike Finch Esq.' but of course it should really be 'Dr M Finch' !! BTW, I am still avoiding all the awkward questions - give me a little time ! -- Mike

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Date: Fri, Feb 02, 2001 at 19:21:52 (GMT) From: Conlon Email: None To: Mike Finch Subject: Mike, what happened to the skinny ascetic saddhu? Message:

I'm glad you're still here and I don't care if you don't answer all of our questions as long as you answer your own. PS Don't shed too much as most of us are now all fit, fat and over forty (okay fifty.)

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Date: Fri, Feb 02, 2001 at 17:30:43 (GMT) From: Francesca Email: None To: Mike Finch Subject: You're doing great, glad to have your input n/t Message:

mm

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Date: Fri, Feb 02, 2001 at 16:37:22 (GMT) From: Disculta Email: None To: Mike Finch Subject: Premie babes, dudes and weight Message:

Ever notice that, once in the ashram, the dudes got thin and the babes got fat? I am a skinny (soon to be 50 ) babe, and always have been, except, that is, when I was in the ashram, when I ballooned 50-75 pounds and looked pregnant (the one time in my life when I was least likely to be, but people where always asking). Once I fell in love and left the shram, I went back to me previous size. The guys, on the other hand, seemed to go skinny in the ashram, and gain weight afterwards, especially if they had married an adoring housemother who was happy to feed them. I noticed this phenomenon so many times I claim it is a scientific fact of evolutionary psychology. Any deviations from my point of view are mere anomalies, to be ignored. Love Disculta

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Date: Fri, Feb 02, 2001 at 21:10:21 (GMT) From: Joe Email: None To: Disculta Subject: Ashram food trips Message:

The ashram sisters deved seem to pork-out however, in the ashram, but they were able to hide a lot under those long skirts. : The sisters ashrams also seemed to be a seething with 'special diets.' Lots of microneurotic diets, lots of hypoglycemic diets, and lots of other 'food trips'. Theory: Since we weren't allowed to have sex, drink, or have a career, but you could eat, food became a major focus in our lives. I have a question though. How did Mike Finch get the dispensation to go to University while in the ashram. I never heard of that happening. How mindful. How worldly. How expensive. How not-bringing-in income.

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Date: Fri, Feb 02, 2001 at 16:19:58 (GMT) From: Bazza Email: bshaw8@bellsouth.net To: Mike Finch Subject: Aw, you still look cute though/OT Message:

Excuse my frivloity Mike, and my poor grammar. I guess the correct form (apart from 'Dr') would have been 'Mike Finch Esq.', leaving off the 'Mr' You'll have to get used to a bit of leg-pulling here, its par for the course. Whatever you do, don't call anyone a bongo, even if they are. That'll start WWIII in a heartbeat. PLease dont feel obligated to answer any questions, awkward or otherwise, this is just a chat room after all, not a courtroom. I think everyone gets a bit too excited when a new, known face appears, especially someone with a brain like yourself. Your perspective can help others to unravel the confusion and spiritual dilemma which comes from 20 years in a cult. cheers barry

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Date: Sat, Feb 03, 2001 at 22:53:37 (GMT) From: Katie Email: None To: Bazza Subject: Not esq. - Ph.D.! (ot) Message:

As in Michael Finch, Ph.D. I am not even sure who uses 'esq.' anymore. Oh yeah, Bazza, remind me never to send you my picture - snicker :)! Actually, my devoted premie pictures are terrible - even though I WAS younger then.

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Date: Thurs, Feb 01, 2001 at 22:55:46 (GMT) From: JHB Email: None To: Everyone Subject: Being in the world but not of it Message:

Does anybody still think this is a good idea? Like those who still meditate maybe? This world's all I've got. I love huge parts of it. I love the land I own. That's really strange, owning land, but I'm responsible for 40 hectares/100 acres of forest and grazing land. Being in the cult taught me that nothing really matters in this world, and this conditioning is really hard to remove. I still think maybe it's true, but I also see that this attitude leads to callousness, indifference, and generally not feeling or doing as much as I can in this world. Just a few late night thought:-) John.

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Date: Fri, Feb 02, 2001 at 18:30:26 (GMT) From: Gregg Email: None To: JHB Subject: Under the Blanket Message:

Do they still do that, by the way? The new EV'ers? I always thought the old style of meditating was a good metaphor for the nature of premie life: propped up on a baragon (symbolizing the belief system of Maharajism) and under a blanket (shut away from the world). It was also like the life of a junkie, who embodies this 'not of the world' concept. All that matters to the addict is the quality of his 'experience.' Jobs, family...all secondary to the main purpose of life. I sometimes think the nature of the four DLM/EV techniques encouraged this solipsistic narcicistic point of view, but I could be wrong. It's just that my present meditation (more Tantric, more Buddhist, less inner sound/light etc.) seems to work well with a very engaged relationship to the world. Mediation in premie days got me high, sometimes, but the encouraged worldview put a subtle 'pane of glass' (as someone referred to it on this thread) between me and the world. If meditation doesn't make you more aware of the world and what it really is - and even more, what it isn't - than it ain't worth shit. You might as well play video games as sit on a zafu if it's just a way of getting high.

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Date: Fri, Feb 02, 2001 at 02:49:23 (GMT) From: moldy warp Email: None To: JHB Subject: Being in the world but not of it Message:

I remember m some years ago talking about this line, K on one side, everything else on the other. i them remember talking to a premie friend about a 'glass screen' between us and the world.This screen, even in my vaguely commited days, felt wrong.Now I think it is complete crap. It is duality.It is a form of brainwashing where you come to experience your self and reality in a certain way. There is no reason why you cannot completely be in the world yet out of the world at the same time. Spiritual reality is not separate from the world. The world is a spiritual place, we are souls in it, so to speak,. I don't feel i am explaing myself very well due to lateness of the hour, sorry.I agree wholeheartedly with you that this conditioning is very hard to remove. Have you read 'Sacred Science' (can't remember author at mo but can tell you tomorrow if you want... All about person-centred 'spiritual growth, critiqing Eastern religions for exactly what you are talking about -- and suggesting that being ''spiritual' can equally be thought of as connected downwards (to the earth) and sideways( to friends and family and job etc.) as well as upwards (out of thus world to 'nirvana').Good luck

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Date: Fri, Feb 02, 2001 at 01:56:33 (GMT) From: SB Email: None To: JHB Subject: True for me too Message:

Being in the cult taught me that nothing really matters in this world, and this conditioning is really hard to remove. I still think maybe it's true, but I also see that this attitude leads to callousness, indifference, and generally not feeling or doing as much as I can in this world. What Lard teaches is all especulation because it cannot be proven to be true that the experience of meditation has any deep 'spiritual meaning. Yes, in THAT practice we were left with few tools to function in the world. I am in touch with myself and knowing better what I like and dislike today without the cult. Lard doesn't do what he preaches: He finds lots of enjoyment with his worldly possesions. I bet you get yours with your land. I envy you; big cities suck and I live in one of the worst. Buaaa... More power to you. Take care. Thanks for the reminder tHht RAWAT SUCKS!!

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Date: Fri, Feb 02, 2001 at 01:18:39 (GMT) From: la-ex Email: None To: JHB Subject: self transcendence or self denial? Message:

JHB_ I have often thought in recent years that what the cult encouraged back in those days was a form of self-denial, rather than a form of self-transcendence. Being in the world, but not of it sounds great, but I agree that it led premies and especially ashramers and instructors to lead some very wierd lives, and to justify it through half-baked spiritual formulas such as these. It's also amazing to think back about the ashram environement, where there was no access to media, books, magazines etc., and even talk like this was discouraged. There was no screening device to see who should go in or not,or whether it was good for you or not, it was generally just pushed on premies as the only way to the goal. I think in every community there are a signifigant number of real losers,people who still suffer from that brutal rejection of the world, and denial of thoughts and feelings. Many premies were people who had low self esteem and self concept, and in many instances the worst thing for them was to be put into that ashram environment. I think that many of them never recovered, especially when they gave 10 years or so to the guru in that way. Sometimes it's hard to believe that it all happened the way it happened, and that present day premies have such a capacity for denial...I think the unpleasant feelings it brings up, serves as a deterrent for premies to sort through more of this stuff...plus, there is a real attitude in the cult today that mocks any of this kind of talk, and categorizes it as complaining or being caught up in the past;this is promoted by m...

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Date: Thurs, Feb 01, 2001 at 23:55:15 (GMT) From: Francesca Email: None To: JHB Subject: Being in the world but not of it Message:

Yes, this can be a conflict, at least for me. You just can't twist your head around like that. 'In the world but not of it' was the quote we most often heard, and it has a ring of truth to it. But we were doing the 'not of it' and leaving out the 'in the world' part. Because if I am truly in the world, I am alive and caring and compassionate -- fully engaged. You are so right that in one sense, the world is all we have. We live, we breathe, we see, we feel. This is the present moment, and it is not static. My task is not to be attached to everything I perceive with the tentacles of my ego. I think I could care even more if 'I' don't get in the way, with what 'I' want and how 'I' see it. Getting to a more expansive view makes the world and the spirit, the seen and unseen, sychronize and feel 'right.' Some of those strange premie (and new age) ideas of nonattachment were a license for premies to be callous to each other. ('Shut up and meditate, sister.' 'You don't need sleep, you need meditation.') In some philosophies this is called nihilism. The relative view is that everything matters and is real -- the whole schmeer -- duality, good and bad, me and you, yada yada. What we do matters. There is cause and effect. The absolute view is that all is empty, all is one, all is light, whatever. To have an absolute view without the relative view defies all the scientific and rational laws we know about. It leads to people being nasty because it's all just some vaporous 'lila.' It leads to M recounting the scene of Krishna and Arjuna on the battlefield, in which M says Krisha told Arjuna to go ahead and kill them all, because they were all dead anyway. Such pseudo lofty views are dangerous. The trap of being 'spiritual' is that if I get caught up in the absolute view, and chuck the relative, I am a worse human being than if I were not the least bit spriritual, thought everything was very real, and acted accordingly. Yes, for me, getting too spiritual in a concepual sense can make me lose all taste for everything, which is crazy, because I'm here. What else could I possibly be doing??? Mr. Enjoying life sure sucked it out of us! The queen bee and her drones.

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Date: Fri, Feb 02, 2001 at 02:12:40 (GMT) From: Disculta Email: None To: Francesca Subject: Being in the world but not of it Message:

Francesca, you said 'The trap of being 'spiritual' is that if I get caught up in the absolute view, and chuck the relative, I am a worse human being than if I were not the least bit spriritual, thought everything was very real, and acted accordingly.' Yes, I think this is very interesting and very true. I heard a story about Ramakrishna, the crazed, mystical Indian teacher who sent Vivekananda over to the West. Viv brought a lot of interest in eastern spirituality. However, RK warned him that on no account should he introduce the concepts of Advaita - the spiritual approach whereby you 'wake up' and realize that it's all an illusion, it's all one, I am, etc. He said that if these concepts were taken on by people who were not spiritually mature, they could be very dangerous and destructive. I've seen this a lot in the local Advaitan community around here (near you). There is a tendency for the information to be used to encourage laziness or lack of concern for others, and as an elaborate ruse to avoid feeling uncomfortable feelings. On the other hand, as I think you said, although I may be mixing your post with others above, there is merit to this philsophy, and since leaving MJ I have had amazing experiences of waking up and realizing that it (the whole shebang) is all just a game. But if I don't mediate that with liberal doses of compassion, watch out. MJ never got quite as sophisticated as advaita, but the whole use of the 'in the world, but not of it,' thing was, as was brilliantly pointed out in this thread, used in a rather one-sided way, i.e. we would be 'not of it' so that he could be 'in it' in the sense of lavishly enjoying the toys of the world. Very interesting thread, Love Disculta

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Date: Fri, Feb 02, 2001 at 02:36:43 (GMT) From: Conlon Email: None To: Disculta Subject: Hindu contradictory nonsense Message:

Well not only Hindu but also Christian: that we are two separate things a body and a soul. ''The spirit is willing but the flesh is weak.'' It is that duality that led to the idea that we should be IN the world but not OF it. This is typical of the contradictions inherent in the ''spiritual'' view of life especially ''Mahara-jism.'' He constantly preached that we should ''go beyond duality, beyond right and wrong, beyond good and evil'' and yet also preached the duality of ''mind'' and ''heart.'' This is why I no longer hold with the ''ghost in the machine'' theory. My consciousness is a function of my living body. I am one creature and definitely not only part of this world but having a ball in it.

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Date: Fri, Feb 02, 2001 at 19:41:25 (GMT) From: Lesley Email: None To: Conlon Subject: Nature worship Message:

Totally agree, Patrick. I saw a documentary on human ritual sacrifice, (still goes on), the explanation was rather interesting. After feting the victim (even the victims family got in on the act) they would make the sacrifice and then deify the victim. This was great because now the village would have, say, the 'goddess Lucinda' who knows and loves them to intercede with the 'god of flooding rivers' on behalf of their village. Ah the dangers of personalising and deifying the forces of nature! Jesus came in on the back of a wave of Judaic thinking that said, hey, it's not necessary to kill a man, an animal will do. It is no wonder there is so much frustration and aberrant behaviour in society, we are'nt supposed to be animals any more!

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Date: Fri, Feb 02, 2001 at 18:25:23 (GMT) From: Joe Email: None To: Conlon Subject: Hindu contradictory nonsense Message:

Patrick, Has Maharaji stopped talking about this stuff? He appears to be down playing it at least. I really think even more damaging than 'the world v. the true self' was 'me v. my mind.' I mean, you can kind of be withdrawn from the world, but the other Hindu bullshit, the 'heart/mind' duality, causes mental illness.

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Date: Fri, Feb 02, 2001 at 19:13:31 (GMT) From: Conlon Email: None To: Joe Subject: Joe, the ''mind'' is now the ''doubt-maker'' Message:

He still goes on about duality whenever he channels the ghost of his dead father (yes, it happens.)The ''mind'' has not be revised as the ''doubt-maker.'' He is a very confused man. He thinks that his father's satsang is the TRUTH but he is trying to be original (ie the living master) and tries to talk with his own words which are basically the spoutings of a very stupid (but shrewdy) spoilt brat trapped in his teenage years.

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Date: Fri, Feb 02, 2001 at 02:56:59 (GMT) From: moldy warp Email: None To: Conlon Subject: Hindu contradictory nonsense Message:

Just read your post after writing mine above. Completely agree wuth you about duality stuff. Very destructive and unwholistic (if there is such a word).Funnily enough I am writing about mind/body split for a research thing at university (wonder why?&^%). It is so embedded in our thinking it was easy for us to buy into Hindu stuff (whilst completely removing it from original cultural context and distorting it- or rather M did that for us )It is great to read this stuff, and liberating to see that we create (and therefore can undo and recreate) our own reality.And in the process be a lot happier.Sending you and all good thoughts

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Date: Fri, Feb 02, 2001 at 03:00:56 (GMT) From: Conlon Email: None To: moldy warp Subject: Thanks moldy warp Message:

Who better to write about the mind/body split than an ex? I wish you well too.

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Date: Fri, Feb 02, 2001 at 04:36:15 (GMT) From: Postie Email: None To: All Subject: Like the Lotus Message:

I agree with all of you - great thread. Most of the comments have been how the religion-minded individual has this sort of heaven/earth or good/evil or world/not of it split. As it relates to M himself though, the 'lotus philosophy' conveniently makes him unimpeachable. I remember very distinctly having the metaphor espoused by M and mahatmas that GMJ was 'like the lotus'. The lotus grows with its roots taking nourishment from the mud beneath the pond while the pure lotus flower opens above. So similarly brothers and sisters, M can do anything he wants because, after all, he's the 'lotus' and the lotus is never dirtied by the mud it's growing in. I really think that this 'reasoning' makes M immune from any and all criticism in the mind of the devotee. While I'm at it, anyone remember the Hansa Swan? This swan is so discerning, you can mix dirty water with pure milk and the swan can drink the milk and leave the water. Different myth, same alibi.

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Date: Fri, Feb 02, 2001 at 18:15:47 (GMT) From: Disculta Email: None To: Postie Subject: Coughing up mucus Message:

I just tried separating the milk mixed with water with my beak, and it curdled and I got gobs of mucus in my throat. Do you think I got it? HansaDisculta

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Date: Fri, Feb 02, 2001 at 18:20:28 (GMT) From: Postie Email: None To: Disculta Subject: That's Hansa Swan Cottage Cheese (nt) Message:

nt

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Date: Fri, Feb 02, 2001 at 14:57:41 (GMT) From: Joe Email: None To: Postie Subject: Elan Vital STILL espouses this Message:

Yes, Maharaji is supposedly the lotus and therefore all the greed he exhibits is excused. How can any intelligent person fall for that! On the Elan Vital website, there is a FAQ in which they try to respond to criticisms that Maharaji is so greedy and material and has obviously made a fortune in the cult-business. The 'answer' to the FAQ, in which they don't deny the obvious, is to say the Maharaji says it's okay to be filty rich as long as one is not 'attached' to the wealth. Basically, it's the same 'in the world but not of the world' nonsense he has always espoused.

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Date: Sun, Feb 04, 2001 at 13:54:59 (GMT) From: Jethro Email: None To: Joe Subject: I was told by a present premie... Message:

that PAMs still talk about prempal manifesting as a many-armed god in his residence. (I was told this last year). It's all still going on, only the pwks are silent about it to outsiders because only those 'in the Know' could possibly understand. A cult is a cult is a cult is a cult. I hate to admit it, but yes I was in a cult, a bad cult. In a recent conversation with my (13 year old) daughter, I told her that I used to believe that prempal was God, she just cracked up with laughter. Wait til I show her pictures of her mother, who faithfully served him in his residence and was working up to 22 hours a day and given a cupboard to sleep in.( Remember that Glen Whittaker and Peter Lee?) Woopps....have I digressed, but what can one expect from someone who believed that God had come to earth as this little boy from India and it was only by his grace that anyone could recognise him. Hmmm maybe it's time for me to write my journey. Jethro

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Date: Fri, Feb 02, 2001 at 11:03:32 (GMT) From: Jean-Paul Email: jfagnaux@hotmail.com To: Postie Subject: Painfull separation Message:

It is one of the fundamental lines ot the discourse of m. This world is bad, people are lost. Forgett about relationship, wife, husband, friends etc… Avoid doubt and mind. The truth is him and that place. Consequences : premies have really hard time to function normally. Unconsciously, they perceive the world as an obstacle. They deny also an essential part of themself, a material from which they could learn, grow and understand themself. This terrible duality leads to a kind of schizophrenia. They are not only afraid of the world but also afraid of a part of themself that they consider like enemy, mind etc… And they look for protection in the illusion of the master. Of course the master doensn’t know anything about this stuff and he reinforces the feeling of separation. For these poor premies, life becomes an endless battle. The tension is always there. Maybe sometimes there is some « bliss » in a programm but the reality always comes back. And they spend fortunes to attend these events to be in presence of this ignorant master. I was discussing with a premie 2 days ago. She says 'knwoledge doens’t solve the problems . You can make therapy, take medecine.' Is is the knowledge of all knowledge after which there is nothing else to know ? We are in the world. The apparent separation is our own creation. The enemy within can become our friend and teacher. Fuck up the repression.

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Date: Fri, Feb 02, 2001 at 17:52:13 (GMT) From: Francesca Email: None To: Jean-Paul Subject: Great post! n/t Message:

n/t

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Date: Fri, Feb 02, 2001 at 13:13:43 (GMT) From: bill Email: None To: Jean-Paul Subject: Yup-nt Message:

dfhsdf

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Date: Thurs, Feb 01, 2001 at 05:08:01 (GMT) From: JohnT Email: None To: Everyone Subject: Have you heard what they say about ... Message:

Randy? Have you heard what they say about Randy? (He seemed quite a nice sort of chap) But he fell in with some Guru-andi And it's proved a proper mishap. Randy was in it from the beginning He's one of the last to get out Tho' he knows there's been deaths & much sinning And spinning to fool the devout. Yes, he's known of the lies and the scheming Covered over crimes by the score A trapped dreamer who lies in his dreaming A Master who leaches for more. They're trying to get word to poor Randy The Law could be after his hide But there's plenty been played just as dandy That's ready to fight on his side. But his Master has squandered his chances. He has thieved and fucked like a lout. Know this: an angry Kali now dances And His time has almost run out. JohnT

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Date: Thurs, Feb 01, 2001 at 06:17:44 (GMT) From: salam Email: None To: JohnT Subject: have you tried recording your poems Message:

and putting them on your web site. I think they'll make a good addition. Just a thought.

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Date: Thurs, Feb 01, 2001 at 09:18:59 (GMT) From: JohnT Email: jtucker@dircon.co.uk To: salam Subject: have you tried recording your poems Message:

Thanks Salam, I don't have the facilities to make mp3 files from my poems. But if anyone would like to do that, I agree, they would make a great addition. Anyone? JohnT - never a premie

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Date: Thurs, Feb 01, 2001 at 02:29:29 (GMT) From: Sir Dave Email: sirdavid12@hotmail.com To: Everyone Subject: It's done Message:

I've had enough of this trip. I'm not an ex-premie and I'm not a premie either. I'm not part of any movement to bring down Maharaji. I couldn't give a shit about him. I've got far more pressing needs to attend to. I have zero enthusiasm these days for anything to do with Maharaji. Why, I don't even know any premies or ex-premies in real life. It's a trip I never did belong in. I don't fit into any ex-premie movement any more than I fitted into any premie movement. Lone wolf, that's me. Always have been and always will be. I've done my bit for people to see who Maharaji really is. It's done.

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Date: Sat, Feb 03, 2001 at 13:20:37 (GMT) From: Scott T. Email: None To: Sir Dave Subject: It's done Message:

David: I took a powder for almost two years, and now drop in occasionally. I'm a lot more interesting in recumbent cycling than Maharaji. In fact, I'm a lot more interested in almost everything than Maharaji... but the people on this forum are literate and funny, and often more than superficial. I don't think I have much to offer since I was never 'in the know' as a premie. Anyway, hope to see you around. Thanks for the company and the humor. --Scott

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Date: Fri, Feb 02, 2001 at 22:53:55 (GMT) From: Steve Email: None To: Sir Dave Subject: It's done - truly! Message:

and these people 'knighted' you! No wonder they'd put their guru up there on a pedestal. Thanks for bringing a bit of true sanity and light to this dark place. Steve.

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Date: Fri, Feb 02, 2001 at 19:21:47 (GMT) From: Zelda Email: None To: Sir Dave Subject: on not being an ex Message:

Dear Honorable Sir Lawd I know just what you mean at least I think I do. To refer to myself as an ex can be another label I sure dont need. Especially because the term 'ex' has a raft of associations with it- and 'ex-premie' can be linked to an anti Malarki movement. It seems cleaner to say I am not a premie anymore. Premies seem to feel safer if I use that term. If I use 'ex premie' with them-- their guard goes up and communication is shut down on some levels. Things are further complicated by associations with the forum. Some people get their definitions of 'ex premie' by the attitudes and mood here on the forum. To my mind the forum shows the mood and attitude of ex premies but that mood and attitude does not define or describe being an ex premie. Visitors to this site could easily feel they are visiting 'ex premiedom' . This is not a result of any thing on the forum but is the result of a defect in human nature that kicks in when aforementioned humans participate in cyberspacial propaganda. I cant believe I said that! (:0 :) ZZ

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Date: Fri, Feb 02, 2001 at 10:43:45 (GMT) From: Twiz Email: None To: Sir Dave Subject: Re: It's done Message:

Congratulations Sir Dave, you are a man after my own heart. I think I once was interested in a young Indian who taught meditation but today it seems totally irrellevant and I have been putting my energies into other things. I have accomplished much and look forward to telling you about them one day. BTW, what is to become of AG? I have lost the link to it and I would love to post a message or three there by way of saying Hello/Goodbye to the friends I made there. Best of luck in whatever you decide to get involved in. Phil Garratt.

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Date: Fri, Feb 02, 2001 at 10:08:18 (GMT) From: Tonette Email: None To: Sir Dave Subject: A very healthy decision nt Message:

nt

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Date: Thurs, Feb 01, 2001 at 23:53:08 (GMT) From: Sandy Email: None To: Sir Dave Subject: It's done Message:

Sir Dave, I just want to acknowledge that I always appreciated your non-judgemental attitude towards me and your gentlemanly composure in the midst of everything. Sandy

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Date: Thurs, Feb 01, 2001 at 22:16:15 (GMT) From: Jerry Email: None To: Sir Dave Subject: What number is this, Dave? Message:

Um, let me see. You've had it with this place 2 or 3 times by now (haven't we all?). Instead of calling it quits for good, why don't you just give it some breathing space for awhile. Maybe it is for good, but seriously, can you really say it is? One thing I've learned as I've gotten older is you really never know how you're going to feel one day to the next. Hope to see you again sometime in the future. Until then, Sir David, valiant knight of The Burning Tree, proud protector of the Cheddar Cheese.

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Date: Thurs, Feb 01, 2001 at 21:23:24 (GMT) From: la-ex Email: None To: Sir Dave Subject: It's done: Gone, but not forgotten.... Message:

Sir Dave- Thanks so much for your site-it played a very large part in my beginning to see M in a totally different light, and get out of the cult. I loved the satire, and I think that the way you presented stuff was very helpful and creative as well. I have referred many people to your site, especially whaen they wanted to find out the main parts of much of m's 'off camera behavior'. They later told me that it helped 'piece together many parts of the puzzle' for them, and show them 'the story behind the story.' I think you played a tremendous part in helping the dismantling of the cult, and it helped many people as well. One last thing; would you consider letting someone add more 'best of' type stuff, as it comes in, to the 'truth about m' part? I think it is very helpful to have it all in one place. Thanks again, Hope to hear from, or see you one day, La-ex

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Date: Thurs, Feb 01, 2001 at 21:22:58 (GMT) From: Suzanne Email: None To: Sir Dave Subject: It's done Message:

Hi Sir Dave, I don't write a lot of posts, but I read a lot of them, and I have always enjoyed what you had to say. Thanks.

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Date: Thurs, Feb 01, 2001 at 20:43:28 (GMT) From: Bin Liner Email: None To: Sir Dave Subject: Many Thanks..... Message:

....especially for helping to cure my paranoia when I 1st started posting here . Here's a little quote for you : 'You will hear a lot of talk about how this or that generation messed things up....... What nonsense. All living generations are responsible for what we do & all dead ones as well.' (General 'Vinegar Joe' Stilwell) You've made a great contribution to the historical record. Good Luck.

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Date: Thurs, Feb 01, 2001 at 20:33:58 (GMT) From: Francesca Email: None To: Sir Dave Subject: Chill! No one says that you have to ... Message:

live on this forum! It doesn't have to be an either-or proposition. I've already seen my level of input drop, and that's to be expected. Of course, as Joe says, I have friends on here and that will also keep me around. take care, whatever you decide! --f

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Date: Thurs, Feb 01, 2001 at 19:09:09 (GMT) From: Joe Email: None To: Sir Dave Subject: Let's Hear it for Sir Dave Message:

Dave, Thanks from me for all the fine work you've done, not only in the great things you've had to say (including the satire), but also for compiling information, setting up search engines, that terrific 'Truth About Maharaji' site, etc. Both you and Jean Michel have been great at compiling information and putting it where anyone can see it, and you've done it in a very creative way. I know the feeling of wanting to get away from here, and I've also done it for a few months here and there. It's a good way to get some perspective. Now, I mostly just like the people here, and I've connected up with old friends as well. It's also great to see what a success this website has been, thanks in large part to your efforts. I think people are really being helped. Remember, you can always check in whenever you want. Joe

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Date: Fri, Feb 02, 2001 at 03:17:58 (GMT) From: Joy Email: joy52@earthlink.nt To: Sir Dave Subject: Let's Hear it for Sir Dave Message:

I sure second everything that Joe said, you will be sorely missed but I appreciate your need for 'space'. Sometimes lately I wonder what the heck I'm doing, too, putting so much energy into thinking about Maharaji and Knowledge (in a negative sense, via the forum). Is this a waste of time? I don't know, I don't care, I'm just enjoying the camaraderie and 'craic' (as the Irish would say) for the time being and if it helps a wavering premie 'see the light' so-to-speak, it's a big bonus. You've been a tremendous help and entertainment to many people during your time here. I'll miss your sense of humor and fun! Wishing you all the best with your health, family, career and life as an ex-ex-premie.org poster! Do keep in touch if you have the time/energy. Love, Joy

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Date: Fri, Feb 02, 2001 at 03:20:11 (GMT) From: Joy Email: None To: Dave Subject: P.S. Message:

I keep telling myself I'm going to quit any day now, too, and it never seems to happen. The Forum is Grade A Addictive! I wouldn't be surprised if we see you back here come next Monday . . .

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Date: Thurs, Feb 01, 2001 at 16:59:32 (GMT) From: Jim Email: None To: Sir Dave Subject: This is what really bugs me about what you wrote Message:

Why, I don't even know any premies or ex-premies in real life. That's too bad, in a way. I'd have figured you'd have dropped into one of the english Latvian nights maybe, knew Anth or Nigel, something. I can't believe you don't have any friends from all this stuff. No, don't get me wrong. I'm not saying that any of us need more friends. It's just that this is such a good human interface -- on one limited cyber level, granted -- and we do all really know each other, albeit in a limited way that's rather unprecedented in the history of the world. Dave I feel like you're a friend of mine, kinda. Sure I do. I'd lend you up to $10 if you really needed it. (Maybe, I mean. I'm not committing to anything.) By the way, the thing I dislike most about the 'I'm not an ex' statement isn't just that it's clearly untenable in simple logical terms. Semantically, if you were once something and now aren't you're an 'ex' of whatever that thing was, as far as I can tell. No, what bugs me most about that is that it implies something quite unfair about the rest of us. Oh well. Hope this isn't the last we ever connect. If you're ever in my neck of the woods, you'll call, right?

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Date: Thurs, Feb 01, 2001 at 16:28:55 (GMT) From: Michael Dettmers Email: dettmers@gylanix.com To: Sir Dave Subject: It's done Message:

Sir Dave, A sermon by the Rev. John-Hammond Smyth helped me step out of the shadows. You may be done, but you are not forgotten. Thanks for all you have done. Michael

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Date: Thurs, Feb 01, 2001 at 15:46:15 (GMT) From: Ulf Email: None To: Sir Dave Subject: It's done Message:

hi sir Dave I will be missing your posting here, but i also understand your longing for leaving the forum. some of your post , have been a great help for me . Thank you and good luck Ulf

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Date: Thurs, Feb 01, 2001 at 15:25:26 (GMT) From: Gregg Email: None To: Sir Dave Subject: As the Lady Macbeth said: Message:

'What's done cannot be undone.' And so it will be With Maharaj Ji (That mini-poem is a bit of trochaic dimeter, in case anybody's counting.) I, too, have better things to do than visit this cybersite daily. I also have better things to do than visit Cruel Site of the Day, Brunching Shuttlecocks, Modern Humorist, Arts and Letters Daily, Salon Magazine, Jon Carroll, Drudge Retort (not Report!) and Silicon Investor. But visit I do. I'll miss you. And, yeah, as Anth (eater) points out, the Krishna wannabe we all knew and loved is a god whose clay feet have been really bothering him these days: our slings and arrows may be a bit superfluous, really.

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Date: Thurs, Feb 01, 2001 at 18:35:47 (GMT) From: cq Email: None To: Gregg, Dave and all Subject: phew! - I thought the quote was going to be: Message:

'Infirm of purpose, give me the daggers' . . . Well, Dave, free is as free does (hey - I just made that up! - I think) Don't forget - no-one here would mind in the least (oops, how can I speak for everyone? - can't) I mean, I wouldn't mind in the least if someday your feelings about posting here changed, and you decided to re-join the mud-bath. Your search-engine is immensely useful. Not to mention the picture-depository. I hope both remain up and running. Many thanks. (and P.S. - wanting to bring the Maha down is one thing - but helping newcomers to learn about his past is quite another). Enjoy your sabbatical. Chris

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Date: Thurs, Feb 01, 2001 at 22:35:16 (GMT) From: JohnT Email: None To: cq Subject: Hi cq Message:

And deconstructing the fatrat's methods yet a third. Welcome back (hey! someone goes and someone else comes back - so don't forget to pop by Sir Dave). I'm afraid we're all very civilised here now. A Fat Fag Formerly Known as Thelma turned up and taught us all to be nice. Oh well. There's always Slashdot. How's the karma? JohnT - never a premie

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Date: Fri, Feb 02, 2001 at 18:47:09 (GMT) From: cq Email: None To: JohnT Subject: Hi JohnT Message:

Hi John, You're right - laying out the Maha's methods in the clear light of day - and comparing them with other cult practices - is another worthwhile angle of this whole trip. Getting premies to make use of the information is difficult though, - I imagine that many wouldn't even dream of visiting this site. That's definitely an issue we need to address, sooner or later. How's my karma, you ask? Hmmmm - not sure I want to use such a 'loaded' term. Cause and effect is cause and effect, but calling it karma introduces a lot of semi-religious and 'new-agey' beliefs into the equation. But, like they say, at least there's one good thing about having friends that are into 'new-age' stuff - they (literally) worship the ground you walk on! (that was supposed to be a joke). Anyway, I'm well, and thanks for asking, and thanks for the welcome back (though I never really went that far away). . . . Here's a little story I found about a bloke who thinks he's earning himself some good karma, it goes like this: A guy was having a few drinks at a bar when he noticed a beautiful blonde who was passed out, face down, at a nearby table. He calls the barman's attention to this. 'That's Miss Murphy' says the barman, 'she'll need someone to drive her home'. Being a good Samaritan, the man agrees. The bartender writes down the address and gives it to him. The man walks over and tries to wake Miss Murphy but she is groggy - in fact quite drunk. The man helps Miss Murphy to his feet but she just falls to the floor in a heap. 'Jeez,' the man says, wondering how anyone could drink so much. He takes her by the arm and practically drags her out to the car. Once there he leans her against the side of his car while he looks for his keys. Miss Murphy slides down to the ground. The man finds his keys and somehow manages to get the girl positioned into the passenger seat. He then drives to the address the bartender gave him. He opens the passenger door and helps Miss Murphy out but she slips through his arms and falls to the ground. Cursing softly now, the man helps her to her feet and practically drags her to the front door. He lets go of her to knock on the door but she falls down again. He's helping her to her feet just as Mrs. Murphy (senior) answers the door. 'Hi, Mrs. Murphy? Your daughter had a little too much to drink tonight so I gave her a ride home.' 'That was nice of you,' she says, looking around, 'But ... where's her wheelchair?'

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Date: Thurs, Feb 01, 2001 at 23:36:47 (GMT) From: Selene Email: None To: JohnT Subject: how true Message:

There's always Slashdot. ha! they do get into a frenzy there don't they :)

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Date: Thurs, Feb 01, 2001 at 14:02:53 (GMT) From: AJW Email: None To: Sir Dave Subject: Au revoir Message:

Sir Dave, As the only genuine British aristocrat on the site, your loss will be felt by all, and standards will probably decline without your cultured, well-bred, blue-blooded perspective. If you come to the next Latvian bash, you can meet some ex-premies in London. We promise we won't try to make you join. Dave, you've definitely made an big, effective, contribution in making information about the Fatguru and his cult available, not to mention your ongoing support and participation in the forum and setting up AG to remove the heat from Forum Four. That made a difference to what went on here. I hope you're going to keep your site up. I've needed it a couple of times- at least once to give information to a journalist. All the best. Anth the Ex (not trying to bring down Maharaji either. He's already fallen from his throne, broken his glass and papiermache Krishna crown, and landed in the gutter.)

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Date: Thurs, Feb 01, 2001 at 11:52:09 (GMT) From: Katie Email: None To: Sir Dave Subject: David Message:

Hope you'll consider taking a break and perhaps returning later - we will miss you! I do understand about the 'pressing needs' and being bored with Maharaji - I feel that way a lot. And I think you fit in here as well as the rest of us do :)! Lots of love, Katie

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Date: Thurs, Feb 01, 2001 at 15:24:55 (GMT) From: Monmot Email: None To: Katie Subject: David Message:

Sir Dave: I will miss you and your cast of characters. I certainly understand how you feel, kind of like this line from a Dylan song: 'It may look like I'm moving, but I'm standing still.' It sounds a bit like you're distressed, so I hope everything will be okay for you. I think you're a fabulous satirist (you and eDrek should go into biz together). Take care M

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Date: Thurs, Feb 01, 2001 at 06:21:42 (GMT) From: salam Email: None To: Sir Dave Subject: Who did that? Message:

What's pissing you off, you tell me and I fix him up for you. You're not serious are you?

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Date: Thurs, Feb 01, 2001 at 03:42:44 (GMT) From: bill Email: None To: Sir Dave Subject: It's done Message:

Hi SIr David, Would you keep your email so I can write later?

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Date: Thurs, Feb 01, 2001 at 17:08:04 (GMT) From: bill Email: None To: bill Subject: It's done Message:

How about reinventing yourself, then just posting here once in a while, you dont have to even read here. So that you avoid the flavor that might bring too much back. Just post and spin off about your latest interest. Then debark for a while again.

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Date: Thurs, Feb 01, 2001 at 18:37:06 (GMT) From: Cynthia Email: None To: Sir Dave Subject: To Sir Dave...Many Thanks Message:

Dear Sir Dave, Thank you for all of the wonderful work you've done here. I understand your need for leaving, but you will be missed very much. Your wry humour and the posts which you write seem to put a lot into perspective, and often! I do hope you are well and will visit, Love, Cynthia

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Date: Thurs, Feb 01, 2001 at 02:55:52 (GMT) From: Roger eDrek Email: drek@oz.net To: Sir Dave Subject: Say it ain't so, Sir Dave Message:

At least the subject line here at EPO was more appropriate than at Anything Goes. Sir Dave, please tell me this is joke like when you threw away the password to AG and let it go rudderless. Well, if you're really going we're gonna miss you. And you can always come back. Thanks for everything. Hope your joking, eDrek

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Date: Thurs, Feb 01, 2001 at 02:36:09 (GMT) From: Steve Quint Email: the_avenger55@hotmail.com To: Sir Dave Subject: Before You Go... Message:

Are you really a knight? Somehow I doubt it but you never know. Steve

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Date: Thurs, Feb 01, 2001 at 11:53:23 (GMT) From: Katie Email: None To: Steve Quint Subject: David was knighted by the forum members Message:

For his valiant efforts in guarding a piece of cheese that possibly belonged to Maharaji. Roger's got the story on his site somewhere.

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Date: Thurs, Feb 01, 2001 at 15:53:47 (GMT) From: janet Email: None To: david Subject: leave your truth site up. It's a goldmine. Message:

your search engine is the most valuable resource i know. let things die a natural death. let them fade away when they no longer need to be around. you done good work.

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Date: Thurs, Feb 01, 2001 at 18:37:08 (GMT) From: Kelly Email: None To: Sir Dave Subject: leave your truth site up. It's a goldmine. Message:

I second that motion! Your Truth about Maharaji site was a great help to me in the early days of my exit. The simple arrangement of relevant posts under topic headings made it easy to get quickly to the nitty gritty. At that time also, I had difficulty reading off the screen for any length of time so I have printed out almost your entire site! 'It's done' very well for me, which is why I hope you will keep the site up for the next wavering premie who comes along. So, thanks very much for all you've done, and thanks btw for that post, way below, about the 4th technique. I wish you all the very best of everything, Kelly

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Date: Thurs, Feb 01, 2001 at 18:28:23 (GMT) From: Postie Email: None To: Sir Dave Subject: But who'll guard the cheddar??????? Message:

Your contributions are priceless. Please return when the sermons can be contained no longer.

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Date: Thurs, Feb 01, 2001 at 20:10:56 (GMT) From: Lesley Email: None To: Postie Subject: Thanks Sir Dave, Message:

I too, found the truth site great reading in the early days and have got a lot from your posts. Lesley.

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Date: Fri, Feb 02, 2001 at 00:14:50 (GMT) From: Sir Dave Email: sirdavid12@hotmail.com To: Lesley Subject: Blimey, I didn't expect all that!!! Message:

I guess it's how I operate. I concentrate on something for a stretch and then quit suddenly when I think it's a suitable time. I know that's what I did when I was a premie. I have to concentrate more on my business and other stuff and I would like to say in response to Jim, I do consider you my friends although it is limited to these damn posts and HTML pages at this time. I'm not sick of the people here but I am sick of the guru. I'll keep the forum archive search engine updated and please, if there's anything here which you think should be on my truth about Maharaji site, then please email me and tell me about it. You see, I have less and less time and interest to read all the posts but I do appreciate that some stuff needs to be preserved for easy access later on. I am glad, Michael, that the most Reverend John hammond-Smyth was able to uplift you with his sermons. He would like to pass on his blessings and these don't require him to wave his arms about on the stage just before he leaves for a quick drink round the back. Yesterday, in a moment of overload, I wrote my post because I realise that I've had just about enough of Maharaji. However, I've not had too much of the human race and I'll write now and then my thoughts on The ANYTHING GOES Forum Cheers, Dave.

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Date: Sat, Feb 03, 2001 at 05:00:19 (GMT) From: Robyn Email: None To: Sir Dave Subject: Blimey, I didn't expect all that!!! Message:

To our own Forum God, held in high esteem by one and all, see you in your alternative universe. We love the world you've created there for us and as mentioned there, on the flip side, we feel quite comfortable doing what we do were anything goes. :) Love, Suny(Robyn)

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Date: Fri, Feb 02, 2001 at 13:33:42 (GMT) From: Katie Email: None To: Sir Dave Subject: Blimey, I didn't expect all that!!! Message:

Dear David - Yesterday, in a moment of overload, I wrote my post because I realise that I've had just about enough of Maharaji. However, I've not had too much of the human race Words of wisdom :). Glad you'll be around on AG, too! And I hope we get to meet you the next time we come to London. Love, Katie

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Date: Fri, Feb 02, 2001 at 13:16:32 (GMT) From: bill Email: None To: Sir Dave Subject: Great, see you on AG forum..nt Message:

asdfga

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Date: Fri, Feb 02, 2001 at 00:58:24 (GMT) From: Patrick (formerly Anon) Email: None To: Sir Dave Subject: And for newcomers Dave's Truth page is invaluable. Message:

Dave's Truth about Maharaji page Don't forget..it's all there !

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Date: Thurs, Feb 01, 2001 at 02:17:09 (GMT) From: Aussi Ji Email: None To: Everyone Subject: Amaroo rip off Message:

G'day all, I heard from a very good source that the accomodation for april 24 - 27 program at Amaroo is going to cost a lot of dough.This was mentioned earlier,but what was'nt mentioned was that the next 4 programs at Amaroo are going to be the same deal where the premies have to donate via the registration and accomodation to help pay for all the improvements on the site.Apparently it has a world standard sanitation system.Nothing but the best of course.I bet you after the fourth program the premies will be told the same story again.'well guys just one more program and then we can all come here for next to free' Yeah sure!It will be a case of holding the carot out in front of their noses all over again.The worst part is that they rationalise it away and say.Oh well this is what maharaji wants.Who are we to question it? Amaroo is there for the general public to hire as well,for conventions and the like.I wonder when it is eventually finished and making a good income whether it will be sold off for a shitload of money and all the premies told another cock and bull story that of course they will swallow.I bet it will be sold off myself.Just thought i would vent that bit of info See yuz, Aussi Ji.

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Date: Thurs, Feb 01, 2001 at 06:06:15 (GMT) From: salam Email: None To: Aussi Ji Subject: There won't be 4 programs Message:

He's packing up.

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Date: Thurs, Feb 01, 2001 at 01:39:15 (GMT) From: Joe Email: None To: Everyone Subject: To Mike Finch -- more (civil) conversation Message:

Mike, I've been kind of busy and so a little slow to read your thoughtful comments. I really appreciate your attempts to explain what is going on with you. Actually, you sound a lot like me towards the end of my time as a premie. I was disgusted with premies and the 'organization' but I was unable to take it any further than that. Also, I was miserable and had to get away. Anyhow, just a few comments on what you said: Yes, Gerry, my experience is important to me. Very important. And yours is probably important to you; in fact 'not caring about your own experience' is pretty close to the legal definition of insanity. So that part of your argument is merely stupid. With all due respect, what I found for 10 years as a premie was this constant evaluation of my 'experience' and whether or not I was having it and listening to Maharaji drone on about it endlessly. In fact, I wasn't really living, because I was so focused on the 'EXPERIENCE.' Despite the Maharaji-cult ideology that focusing on your breath makes you 'in that place' or 'in your heart' I found that wasn't really true. It was more like what John Lennon said that 'life is what happens when you are making other plans.' I found that the forumla didn't work because life was going by and I was 'focusing on my experience.' Things got immensely better when I left that weird belief system behind. But that only happened because I couldn't stand it anymore, and then the work began to unravel it all. It was very freeing. He is something else you said: What I resent, is your assumption that I don't care about anyone else. How in the hell do you know ? Or in your book, can you ONLY care about your own experience, OR care about others ? Can you not manage both ? I try to manage both, and how well or badly I succeed, I don't think you have the faintest idea. I hope you do care about other people, and I have no reason to suspect you don't. I think the point many of us are making is that what we saw in the Maharaji cult was that premies, who are, as you admit, focusing on their own 'experience' turned into fairly self-centered individuals. In my experience, that wasn't so much true in the early days, but it was true in SPADES towards the end of my days in the cult. In my opinion, this is because premies tended to, including me, imitate Maharaji, and I have never seen him exhibit the slightest interest in anyone other than himself, except for his professed desire to 'bring peace to the world.' Well, we know where is priorities are there, he enriches himself as a first priority, and always has. But more, the whole ideology is to focus on what is going on and how it's supposed to be so beautiful. It made me one step removed from my own life. Plus, how people with this supposed wonderful experience act, is a pretty good indication if it's something one really wants to be involved in. The proof is in the manifestation, so to speak. And this: 1) The premie 'pecking order', where you are treated according to your perceived position in the premie hierarchy. Over the years, I have been in the inner circle, and in outer darkness. It is very noticeable how differently I was treated and talked to. Of course, not every premie buys into this, but enough do to make me want 'out'. It may seem pretty tame stuff, but I think any of you who have been career-premies in the past will relate. I think this is proof of the point I made, above, and it was pretty much what I saw as well, and it made me sick. I was also a 'career-premie' for part of the time I was a premie, and I know what you mean. Sounds like it is still going on. And this: 2) The 'Maharaji says...' syndrome. Well, yes, because who else in the cult is even allowed to have a legitimate opinion besides him? My god, premies can't even give testimonies like they used to. It is now ALL focused on him. The syndrome is very weird, as you say, because Maharaji says a lot of stuff, much of which is incoherent, and much else that is entirely contradictory. It was like the Bible, you can support just about any position by what is printed there. And this: Certainly he says good and worthwhile things; What does he say that's actually worthwhile, except have an experience and remember to be alive? Isn't that it? He also says a lot that's damaging in my opinion, mainly that you need him, that you lack something, that you are at war with your mind (basic Hindu duality), and he doesn't foster the idea that you need to grow and move on if that involves moving on from HIM. That's very damaging, and truncating. I find the following inscrutible. What on earth are you saying? The bottom line is that I am not an apologist for M, but I will not buy in to much of the negative stuff about him on this Forum. I am not saying whether it is true or not, just that I do not buy into it. What do you mean 'buy into it?' Either you think it's true or it's not. Then the question is, does that mean anything? For me, it certainly does. Actually, it makes me feel bad in one sense, because I was hoping that there were at least some redeeming qualities about they guy I devoted my life to for 10 years. But the fact is he didn't give a crap about me, and he actually not a very nice person at all. Pitty. There is alot I do not like about the premie setup, and I personally reject. I still practice Knowledge. I do care about my own experience, and I do care about others, but I don't care to prove it. Mike, this is how I felt when I left the cult in 1983. I and many premies I knew were very critical of premies, the organization, the initiators, some more than others, the stupid attempts at 'propagation' and the rest, EVERYTHING BUT Maharaji and 'knowledge' which was a sacred off-limits subject of criticism. I couldn't bring myself to see that the real problem was actually that I was miserable as a premie, knowledge didn't work for me, and Maharaji really didn't give a crap one way or the other. Far from 'taking care of me' which I believed, he didn't know I was alive and didn't care. That took awhile, but I really needed to see that to get free from all the programming. Can you say anything critical about Maharaji? It's a good test, Mike. If you can't, then I think you are in a cult, because to me, the most basic programming I had as a premie was that I was unable to criticize Maharaji. Can you? The real bottom line is that I am learning to stand on my own two feet, as I said before, and it is the best place I have found to stand yet. Good for you, Mike. I think you will find a lot of support here. A lot of very good people. A few loud mouths, but mostly really great people. Joe

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Date: Thurs, Feb 01, 2001 at 11:57:03 (GMT) From: Mike Finch Email: None To: Everyone Subject: Challenges !! Message:

A few responses from different threads -- I haven't quite got the hang of these threads, I post somewhere and oops ! the message pops up in a different place ! When I was just reading this Forum, I thought that messages proceeded downwards in a thread in chronological order, which is not how it happens. I THOUGHT some previous threads didn't make sense !! It's also time-consuming tracking everything I want to respond to; quite different from just skimming the Forum as a reader now and again. I have just found a post from Jim to me, but within a posting to Patrick ! A gentler, kinder Jim as well... Jim writes: 'you come in telling us that you were never caught up like we were (I'd still love to see your argument on this) and implying that there was some golden path none of us ever knew of that took one -- you, in fact -- right through the cult maze and out the other side unfazed' I am sorry if you get this idea from what I wrote. I know I can come across and aloof and superior. The truth is the opposite. I feel amazingly caught up, and still am. I spent years (I got K in early 1970) traveling like a yo-yo -- bathing in the inner circle, and then cast into outer darkness, and then selling my soul in order to crawl back up the ladder to the inner circle. And like everyone else, I grovelled to those nearer the inner circle than me, and felt vastly superior to those lower down in the hierarchy than me. Here is my main point to EVERYBODY: I am challenged by your questions ! Phew, that was hard to get out ! Jim was right, I came in responding to Anth's sly comment 'I have it on good authority that Mike is not a premie...' with a posting that set out my certainties. 'Well, no I am not in this sense, and yes I am in that sense,and I feel this and I experience that...' Questions that challenge me are: Joe: 'Can you say anything critical about Maharaji? It's a good test, Mike. If you can't, then I think you are in a cult' Anth: 'Could you explain, or summarise, anything 'Good and worthwhile that M teaches'? Remotely will do fine.' Gerry: 'the ironic part of all this is that these same people could have the 'experience' without Rawat, EV and all that messy baggage' Susan: 'His character matters. It matters a lot. I think you still have some things to examine about your time in EV/DLM and the mark it has made on you.' I have not got any answsers. Hey guys, just a week ago I was anonymous and snug in 'my experience', a fully paid-up premie, whose idea of living wild was to sneak to Forum V when no one was looking ! -- Mike

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Date: Thurs, Feb 01, 2001 at 18:43:32 (GMT) From: Conlon Email: None To: Mike Finch Subject: Joe and Mike: demystifying the ''experience'' Message:

First my apologies to all of you. Whenever ten good conversations are taking place the threads get sucked out of the forum drain at the bottom faster than you can read them. When the active index contains three nonsensical threads such as I helped to create yesterday in a fit of righteous anger there's not much space left for the intriguing conversations. Mea culpa. Hopefully other newbies will learn from my mistake. Joe, as I mentioned to you at dinner last night, currently I'm thinking about putting into words my explanation to myself about what I ''experienced'' from my involvement in the ''Maharaji'' phenomenon. Mike, my intellectual journey as a westerner living in a democratic society based on scinece and reason made me stop believing in a monotheistic creator long before I stopped believing in ''Maharaji.'' Shaking off the superstition that I ''neeeded a Master'' to keep my ego in check was the hardest part of my deconstruction. Last week there were several accounts of peoples' metaphysical experiences in darshan but none of you eggheads stepped in to demystify them as you have done with the kriyas (some clever brain wave theories, articles in Newsweek - the thinking wrestling fans' ''serious'' magazine - and orgone machines or something like that.) Ham said to Jim that the forum was starting to sound like the post-satsang chitchat sessions. I agree. Let's get some serious demystification going. I would really like to hear some clear, opinionated, voices on this topic. I realize that there are going to be at least two points of view: those of you who have thrown out both the baby and the bathwater and those of you who just threw out the baby because it was getting too fat to be pampered anymore and too expensive to feed but who kept the bathwater and recycled it. Part of my demystification of darshan (and the bhakti voodoo of which it is a central stratagem) will be that everything that I experienced within the ''Maharaji'' phenomenon was generated by me. I'm not a psychologist so I can't deconstruct it that way but would like to hear your thoughts from that angle. I also know that it was completely subjective and that, if we thought we were all experiencing the same thing - the socalled Knowledge, we were wrong. Each of us generated our own idiosyncratic experience and then assumed it was the same because it all came from one source. Wrong. It arose from our individual expectations and was as unique to each of us as our finger prints. Why do you think the Beas cults invented the idea of the Satguru? Yep - to ''synchronize'' their devotees, make them all believe that they were experiencing the same thing. If you study the Beas cults you will see that they arose as a challenge to the proselytization of British Christian missionaries in India and the Radhasoami gurus began to see themselves as messiahs long before Mr Rawat or his father did. Something happend to all of us to draw us to the Rev Rawat in the first place. Whatever that was was unique to each of us but we were told that it was the same thing from the one true source. What utter garbage. That socalled ''feeling inside'' is just that: incommunicable, undescribable, unknowable by another unless they were given ESP the last time they were abducted by a UFO. I threw out the baby for the first time 22 years when I was penniless in Miami (after the Kissimee extravaganza) and had to sleep on the roof of the satsang hall in Coral Gables and wash dishes for a week in a dive until I had enough money to get a place to stay. I was miserable, alone, frightened, a stranger in a strange land with no money and I've always had too much pride to ask for help. The third night that I climbed up onto the roof when all the premies had gone home I realized that the only help I usually got was from me anyway. Okay so I picked up the baby a year later and threw it away again and again until it was so battered I had finally had to call the morgue but by that time I had turned the bathwater into wine for myself. NOT for others. What I feel in the privacy of my own consciousness is for me alone. The mystique of the bhakti voodoo finally disappeared for me when I realized that I preferred the wine that I made out of the bathwater to the baby. So I just let it cry in the corner with dirty diapers while I got drunk. Then recently it stopped crying and I called the coroner. Mr Rawat did not make that wine. In fact he often pissed in the bath water quite selfishly and callously. I made that wine. We all made our own wine. Anything that we experienced came from our own efforts. It is we who choose whether we like our wine sweet or sour or bitter or just nicely balanced between acid and tannin or with a hint of unexpected fruitiness. No, I don't need to be a servant to a ''Master'' in some mystical reconstruction of Hindu feudalism. I'll take my chances that democracy will keep my ego in check and my mortality will curb my pride. Like the wandering saddhus, who scorn gurus as being necessary only for weakminded peasants, I'll make my own journey of discovery.

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Date: Fri, Feb 02, 2001 at 12:54:30 (GMT) From: JTF Email: None To: Conlon Subject: Good point, Conlon Message:

Thanks for putting this thought into words. Even when I was still trapped, I was always amazed at how each of us seemed to interpret the words of maha differently. I found myself hypothesizing(when in my mind, of course)that we all heard his bullshit in such a way as to allow us to rationalize our lack of total commitment/devotion and carry on with the necessities of life in this world. Now, I see that no matter what effort I made it never would have been enough because part of his trip seems to be keeping his victims down-so as to continue the NEED for him.

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Date: Fri, Feb 02, 2001 at 19:02:56 (GMT) From: Conlon Email: None To: JTF Subject: Guilty for having an ego, JTF Message:

That's one of the hardest cult indoctrinations to break for us old saddhus.

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Date: Thurs, Feb 01, 2001 at 19:23:05 (GMT) From: Postie Email: None To: Conlon Subject: demystifying the ''experience'' Message:

Conlon said: 'Last week there were several accounts of peoples' metaphysical experiences in darshan but none of you eggheads stepped in to demystify them ' Thanks for bringing that idea back up. As the originator of a thread, way down in the inactives, titled 'Satguru or Not Guru', I was attempting to make sense out of those profound non-ordinary experiences. If you followed the thread, several posters did step in and said something similar to what you've just said. It was US who brought our unique mindset to the party. WE were the ones having those unexplainable experiences. WE brought our expectations that helped create the mysticism. GMJ provided a focal point and it was fun for awhile. I realize what follows may be revisionist justification for spending 3 years in the ashram but... I think that, at least in the early days, GMJ was the conduit for some powerful energy. His 'Satguru-ness' devolved into the 'Bhakti-Juju (love that term - says it all) Auto K-Lite / send a check' that we see today. But those earlier experiences and the reverential nostalgia about them, and capitalizing upon them by M plus M's charismatic sway, keeps many old-timers hooked. The newcomers may look to those grey-haired PWK's as evidence that 'something mystical is going on here'. So the myth continues. Without the believers, there is no belief and nothing to believe in. Generally I think all religions begin with some type of metaphysical experiences (burning bush, struck dumb on the road to Damascus) and devolves to a belief system via stories told by the ones who had those experiences. One other point that may be helpful. Once I no longer needed an authority figure to tell me wassup, M became just an arrogant speaker filled with strange ideas and bad poetry. Postie

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Date: Thurs, Feb 01, 2001 at 20:06:39 (GMT) From: Joe Email: None To: Postie Subject: Excellent Point Message:

I agree that an interpretation that some kind of 'experience' is mystical, out of the ordinary, spiritual, divine, or whatever, can keep somebody habitually going back to the same site where they had that ONE 'experience,' numerous times, maybe for a lifetime. Of course, this is supported by being told over and over, either in 'satsang' in the old days, or in watching videos or satellite events these days, that THE experience is what it's all about. I prefer to call what I 'experienced' in darshan, when I thought it was what I was supposed to experience, as an experience of my own faith and expectations. Those 'experiences' were rare. All the rest of the dozens of times I went through darshan, for example, and had no experience whatsoever except boredom and confusion, I attributed to my lack of effort in practice, lack of grace, or beine 'in my mind.' So what happens when one remembers those 'experiences?' It's human nature to exaggerate in memory 'good' experiences, especially for a premie, because it is SO IMPORTANT to HAVE a 'good' experience. If you don't, it throws into question the belief system which the Maharaji cult is REALLY about. It is such crap that it's 'just about an experience.' It's a belief system that says it isn't one. So, as a premie, you discount the vast majority of 'nothing' experiences, exaggerate the so-called 'good' experiences, attach a lot of spiritual or mystical mumbo/jumbo to them, and convince yourself you actually had THE experience. That's certainly what I did. As has been said on this forum repeatedly, what the Maharaji-cult is at its most basic is a cult of attribution. You attribute good stuff to Maharaji and knowledge and bad stuff to You and your mind. Very simple that Maharaji and knowledge come out pretty well in that kind of skewed evaluation. The other things that keeps people going, are cult-ambition, of going up into the hierarchy or inner circle. There is a whole group of PWKs who operate in that miserable and bizarre world. Then there are the 'group-highs' people might get at an 'event,' and the desire to want to believe in something 'real.' But I think Maharaji has a really hard time holding on to people in the knowlege-lite era. I think that's why what we have heard, that people who received K in the 90s have largely fallen away, leaving the more indoctrinated from the 70s, it probably true.

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Date: Thurs, Feb 01, 2001 at 15:36:24 (GMT) From: Michael Dettmers Email: dettmers@gylanix.com To: Mike Finch Subject: Challenges !! Message:

Mike, I’m very glad that you have mustered up the courage to join this conversation. Your admission that you don’t have the answers to the challenging questions that have been posed to you is admirable and a tremendous step forward in the process of reclaiming your freedom. When I first posted on the Forum last April, I had already been out of the cult for over a decade. Nevertheless, I found it very difficult to criticize Maharaji given all of the close personal time we had spent together. I also rationalized that I had put it behind me and had moved on with my life. Thanks to Roger’s expose and Jim’s persistent but respectful efforts to engage me in conversations, I soon realized that my past could not so easily be swept under the carpet. At first I responded cautiously, my principal motive being to clear up some of the misrepresentations that had been made about me. Most people saw through this, however, and I was justifiably criticized and challenged with a barrage of questions, many of which I ducked I also received a large number of e-mails in support of my feeble efforts at stepping out of the shadows with encouragement to be more forthcoming. During this period, I got to know Susan and, for the first time, became aware of the Jagdeo situation. This matter so disturbed me that I wrote a personal letter to Maharaji, enclosing a letter from Susan, since Élan Vital claimed that none of the alleged victims had ever come forward. When Maharaji and Élan Vital chose to ignore our efforts to have them address this most egregious matter, I was so disgusted that I came to the conclusion that I had a responsibility to expose Maharaji and his cult before it was allowed to perpetuate any further damage. As I came forward with the facts about Maharaji that are now well documented on this site, I received, and continue to receive, e-mails expressing gratitude from people all over the world who are now free from the cult, in part because of my revelations. In retrospect, I realize that I was selfish and blind to think that I didn't have a responsibility to try and undo some of the damage caused by the cult and its degenerate leader that I had assisted for so many years. Once again, Mike, I commend you for engaging with us and I encourage any other PAM’s who may be lurking to follow Mike’s lead. Michael

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Date: Fri, Feb 02, 2001 at 00:06:39 (GMT) From: Mike Finch Email: None To: Michael Dettmers Subject: Challenges !! Message:

Thank you Michael for your support. This glare of publicity is still quite new to me, and I'm still kind of blinking in the sunlight trying to orientate myself ! -- Mike

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Date: Thurs, Feb 01, 2001 at 18:37:12 (GMT) From: Francesca Email: None To: Michael Dettmers n Mike F Subject: Challenges !! Message:

Yes, I also have Dettmers to thank somewhat, as well as Pat Conlon, Joy and Joe. I personally know Pat, Joy and Joe, and reading Mike Dettmers's posts let me know that even those in the inner circle knew there was trouble in paradise. Since then, Marianne, Susan and many folks on this forum are a voice of sanity, and I thank you all.

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Date: Thurs, Feb 01, 2001 at 14:31:53 (GMT) From: AJW Email: None To: Mike Finch Subject: Challenges !! Message:

Hi Mike, It's really good to see you posting here, and I hope you stick around for a while. I did have it on good authority by the way, that you were no longer a premie, you told me yourself when I publicly confessed to burning your life's work on a bonfire. (Yes, I know I omitted the bit about you saying you weren't an ex- either. But I'm a poet and propaganda officer and I have a licence.) I'm glad it prompted you to post anyway. Do you think your perspective on it all is in a state of change at the moment? (I thought I'd ask an easier one this time.) Anth stumbling slyly around in the ashes.

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Date: Thurs, Feb 01, 2001 at 15:43:48 (GMT) From: Mike Finch Email: None To: AJW Subject: Easy Question Message:

Anth writes 'Do you think your perspective on it all is in a state of change at the moment? (I thought I'd ask an easier one this time.)' This IS an easy question ! Definitely, wholeheartedly absolutely Yes. -- Mike BTW, why can't all you other guys and gals ask me easy questions like this ?!

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Date: Fri, Feb 02, 2001 at 00:25:18 (GMT) From: Patrick (formerly Anon) Email: None To: Mike Finch Subject: Some thoughts before bed Message:

Hello Mike I'll be interested to see your thoughts and responses over time. As I said, if there's any feelings you want to share privately I am more than happy to receive a call. I'm just thinking that it may be helpful as a bit of light relief from having to type all the time - and just converse for a while relatively normally. Also I don't underestimate the emotional turmoil that this sort of discussion can stir up - it did in me... for years actually - definitely if like you say, you are so fresh from being a fully paid up active premie (whatever that means ) you might find it brings up a lot of loyalty issues. My advice is to never to be to hard on oneself but to take a continued interest in moving towards a broader understanding of these things - trusting in one's integrity and good faith. The reason I undertook such a major reality check over my involvement and beliefs about Maharaji was that I felt that I was losing my integrity. My conscience and health was screaming at me louder and louder to take steps to get real. One thing that helped break the 'spell' of dependency was that I absolutely convinced that the fear-mongering aspect of Maharaji - which I perceived first hand and was deeply uncomfy about - was not a quality of a loving God and never could be in my heart of hearts. So I was sure that at the very least I should really confront in myself how much I was just following M because of fear -fear that is in many guises. I soon discovered that M himself had implanted that fear. Maharaji's need for wealth, women, booze etc. is also of course telling, but it was primarily the more personal ways that I felt abused from having entrusted myself so completely to him for so long, that I strive to understand and come to terms with. If you find the time - I would like you to read my 'Journey' (bearing in mind that I wrote it quite a while ago but it expressed feelings that I suspect you may have now). I have found that making the effort to express and consider things deeply (putting pen to paper can focus one enormously to get clear) is a very powerful and liberating thing. Why not pen your own? Enshrine your feelings from this moment in time for posterity and history! Maharaji has surely effectively discouraged people for a long time from 'thinking' and questioning things that beg to be addressed. Moreover he has not encouraged free expression -honest expression. This has bred a society of suppressed individuals and it is reflected in the arrested development and paranoia within his organisation and in many of the lives of his followers - as no doubt you will concur. I would strongly maintain that the Truth cannot be damaged by close inspection - only good can come from honestly seeking truth. Both you and I are examples of people who have followed Maharaji's instructions - to the letter -for years. We are particularly in a position to comment on the true results of Maharaji's so-called Master Class. Thus I stress, and would encourage you to appreciate, how important and good it can be for the likes of us, to not only warn others of the pitfalls of this religion (for that is how I see it) but also to make sure Maharaji himself does not avoid the issue and merely remain a 'distant' potentate, out of touch with reality and misusing his considerable power to further abuse the trust of more innocent and unwary people. The fact that he seeks so clearly to obfuscate his behaviour, his part in the messes and the past is extremely telling. Don't forget, we have sung the praises of the experience for years -let's balance that out abit by speaking truthfully of the other effects! My growing impression is that many of he most committed and sincere premies are now suffering feelings of isolation and increasing disenchantment within the heirarchy that Maharaji betops so absolutely - I think they sense that he is NOT as formerly thought (because he had said he was like the Lotus etc) so immune from the corruptiveness of power after all. They are seeing this because the mounting plain evidence has simply overpowered their wishful thinking, their good faith, that things were all well. We who gave him that power which he exercises so absolutely - owe it to him and to humanity to set the record straight. No one else can do it better right now. The more I have faced the truth about Maharaji - both from my experiences practicing Knowledge and from using my brain - my mind and my common sense - the more I am disappointed to find that there is not so much of the Divine at play. There is however a LOT of the very prosaic at work. At least that is my honest perception so far. I believe Maharaji owes it to us to address our problems if he truly believes he is a Master - but I don't see him as being about to do that at all - I see him avoiding the issues at every turn and behaving in an unkind and irresponsible manner to us - as is demonstrated by his arrogant and dismissive manner towards anyone who does not toe the line in the grossly constraining - expected / acceptible manner. You said: I'm getting in a bit deeper than I anticipated when I started !! Oh well, in for a penny, in for a pound, as they say. Now I'm getting a bit carried away too - but it helps to consider these things doesn't it? You spoke of your 'divine inspiration' or something to Jim (as against logical or mental understanding?) - Maybe whatever that is to you , is telling you to take the bull by the horns - work out to whom you owe allegiance - what forces actually seek to undermine your happiness and integrity - your conscience - you know.. whatever you want to call the good stuff - your 'heart'- why not? I could certainly say that it was my heart that made my question the wisdom of putting so much trust in Maharaji and so little in my God given better sense of judgement. My heart was starved in the end as a premie!! Now, one other extremely devilish, naughty yet irresistable thought crossed crossed my mind today, which I simply must share. You know that Maharaji has been a bit of a fan of the old Cognac over the last few decades. And also, you know how often he has quoted from 'Kahlil Gibrahn' over this exact same period. I am wondering if this is not entirely coincidental. I wonder if Maharaji may himself have heard that Kahlil in real life was a hopeless drunk and sexual obsessive - who died a sorry alcoholic. So maybe Maharji could relate in more ways than one way to this chap! I often wondered why he was so persistent in quoting Kibran, who after all is by no means known as one of the regular gang of illustrious past Perfect Masters , Satgurus, Saints etc. whom Maharaji and his dad had usually quoted in the past to add weight and endorsement to their own teachings. Maybe, I impishly suggest... just maybe... he was mindful that, if he was ever discovered as being a little .. shall we say...'over fond of the bottle', he could simply justifiably retort (having erstwhile cleverly elevated Gibrahn in the minds of premies to the status of 'Kosher Master') - 'hey, look at Kahlil Gibrahn - he was a drunk too! Us Masters you know - we're beyond all that though! Don't worry!' Anyway, I set out here just to say a quick 'hi' and look how I've rambled on - does this remind you of my past satsangs - probably!! Actually I might post some of this rambling on the forum too - I think others can relate! Bye for now Patrick (At last enjoying the miraculous benefits of a DSL connection -I can be on the forum 24 hours a day!)

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Date: Sat, Feb 03, 2001 at 15:37:33 (GMT) From: Susan Email: None To: Patrick (formerly Anon) Subject: Bravo Patrick, a ' best of' post (nt) I Message:

I am out of down due home Monday

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Date: Thurs, Feb 01, 2001 at 23:53:02 (GMT) From: Bazza Email: None To: Mike Finch Subject: Easy Question or two (or three) Message:

Was your comment at the end of your Challenges!! post - where you said that only a week ago you were a fully paid-up premie - meant to be sarcastic? Because obviously it sort of contradicts your initial stance of not being a premie or an ex. Did you ever think maharaji was a Divine Being, a la Lord of the Universe/Perfect Master/etc? If so, when did your opinion change, or has it even? Are you afraid of maharaji? Have you kept in touch with any of the old gang from England - I can't remember how long you were in Manchester, but most of us reverred you as some sort of 'sanyasin', mostly from the enviable way you could sit bolt upright meditating for more than 3 hours without fliching. (Can you still do that BTW?)

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Date: Fri, Feb 02, 2001 at 00:04:41 (GMT) From: Mike Finch Email: None To: Bazza Subject: Easy Question or two (or three) Message:

Bazza writes 'Was your comment at the end of your Challenges!! post - where you said that only a week ago you were a fully paid-up premie - meant to be sarcastic? Because obviously it sort of contradicts your initial stance of not being a premie or an ex.' Yes, kinda sarcastic. As far as most people was concerned I was a 'fully paid-up' premie. The doubts and concerns I express here have been developing over a period, but only expressed to a few people privately (eg Anth). That is what I meant by 'fully paid-up' I'll answer your other questions later (I'm hungry and going for dinner !) -- Mike

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Date: Fri, Feb 02, 2001 at 00:27:43 (GMT) From: Bazza Email: bshaw8@bellsouth.net To: Mike Finch Subject: Stomachs in synch Message:

Hi Mike My pizza delivery just arrived! Not trying to grill you, its just nice to see another presence here I can put a face to - the only other ones being Steve Mulley and John Watson, both hailing from Manchester at some point in time. I only came out of the shadows late last year, before that I had been harbouring doubts for years and they were making me miserable. If nothing else, you'll find this place the only venue available for premies to air their doubts and concepts. Maybe that's why new posters find it a bit confronting - we spent 20+ years not daring to express any negativity about maharaji to our peers, and defending him mindlessly to our family, friends and co-workers. If you can survive the initial running the gauntlet routine, you might even begin to enjoy a new freedom of thought and expression previously denied to you. Barry.

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Date: Thurs, Feb 01, 2001 at 19:15:10 (GMT) From: AJW Email: None To: Mike Finch Subject: Next Easy Question Message:

In what way Mike? Anth the nice cop

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Date: Thurs, Feb 01, 2001 at 18:54:11 (GMT) From: la-ex Email: None To: Mike Finch Subject: Mike Finch,a coupla softball questions.... Message:

Hey Mike-I don't know you, but have enjoyed your posts so far, and commend you on your decision to think about some of these things. Here's a couple of simple questions: 1)Do you think there are unresolved issues from the past concerning M and the people who followed him? If so, what are they, in your opinion? Should they be addressed? How would you advise M to handle them in the most honest way? 2)Do you believe any of the scandalous stuff about him(drugs,alcohol,mistress,hit and run etc.)? Should that stuff be addressed, so that new people don't get into 'Knowledge-lite' with no idea of this stuff, only to find out later about it, and be upset with the person who brought them? 3)Do you believe M is engaging in 'historical revisionism'? Again, what would a parent of a 20 year old woman (aspirant) think about a 'master' who used to proclaim that he would 'rule the world' and that he 'removes all sins, when one receives knowledge', but covers those statements up and refuses to talk about them? Is that OK in your book? Just a few, Welcome, La-ex

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Date: Thurs, Feb 01, 2001 at 14:19:33 (GMT) From: Jean-Michel Email: None To: Mike Finch Subject: Then, I remember an instance where YOU were on Message:

the hot spot. Do you remember that dinner/party we had in Abidjan with m, after the program was over, about 10 years ago ? I guess I still have some pictures of that night in some drawer.... You were there, with your wife, and m was teasing/abusing you, in front of everybody. He was asking you embarrassing questions, and wanted you to tell some dirty jokes. I was feeling VERY EMBARRASSED for you (and your wife). I was NOT enjoying that party, even though we were in a very enjoyable situation. How were you feeling ? Did you feel m was 'playing' with you that night ? How does it feel being ridicule in front of everybody ? I still feel very bad about that kind of situation. I've been part of quite some of that type. Do you realize the impact that kind of 'game' had on us?

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Date: Thurs, Feb 01, 2001 at 12:45:06 (GMT) From: JohnT Email: None To: Mike Finch Subject: Challenges !! Message:

Mike, I posted here anonymously for quite some time before responding to one of Jim's calls for posters here to show their faces (for a variety of reasons not everyone feels able to do this, of course). You have come here making your first post under your real name. And, unlike myself, you are personally known to other posters here. One thing I would like to add is that you are about to replace a carefully contrived illusion (maya) that Mr Rawat has spun about himself. The trouble with leaving Rawat, is that there is no place to stop. Not until THAT illusion has morphed into an accurate and realistic picture of the man and his methods. Respect. JohnT - never a premie

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Date: Thurs, Feb 01, 2001 at 12:34:16 (GMT) From: Jean-Paul Email: jfagnaux@hotmail.com To: Mike Finch Subject: More Challenges !! Message:

Do you think that the teachings of Maharaji are complete ? Did he ever talk about compassion for others, how to deal with suffering, emotions, depression ? Does he have a method for insight meditation and how to deal with the inconscious ? I had beautifull experiences with les technics and after i had a depression. Why light on one side and intense suffering on the other side ? Is it not dangerous to deal only with one side of our mind ? Why do you thing that with buddhist meditation, i cure the suffering and i have also the good aspects that i had with the technics of Maharaji and and i don’t need to devote myself to anybody ? Why some people made therapy and got cured from their mental suffering and never got cured while they were premies and receveid the knowledge of all knowledges ? Maharaji speaks about the heart all the time. What about the connection with other people which is a law of nature. What about the message and the menaing of love for others ? Why does he claim that he has the exclusivity of knowledge ? He proclaims himself The master. More than 30 people say that they are also unique master and show the same technics. What do you think about that ? Do you think Maharaji has a special power ? He says he reveals the light, he shows god, he is the filament. Do you think it is true ? My girlfriend sees light inside most of the time and is very happy. She never receives knowledge and never learn how to meditate and never got in contact with any spiritual group. Why does she see light if it is only the gift of the master ? Here are some questions. I have 5000 more but i keep for later (joking).

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Date: Thurs, Feb 01, 2001 at 17:13:36 (GMT) From: Jim Email: None To: Jean-Paul Subject: You know, that's a DAMN good question! Message:

Maharaji speaks about the heart all the time. What about the connection with other people which is a law of nature. What about the message and the menaing of love for others ? Setting aside knee-jerk hippie cliches about 'peace, love and understanding' it's so true that we are a social animal, we've evolved that way and all that. When has the Hamster ever acknowledged that? He stripped away the only juicy (if compltely misguided) social contact premies had when he stopped satsang. When and where has he ever acknowledged this human dimension? Good question.

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Date: Sat, Feb 03, 2001 at 11:22:47 (GMT) From: Jean-Paul Email: None To: Jim Subject: You know, that's a DAMN good question! Message:

M criticizes everybody, he is not aware that people are living. His perception of reality is paranoid. When you are not in his boat, you are lost. So why care about the people who are lost? They have a chance to recognize the master and they don't take it. The love that he talks about sounds very strange to me. People who are glued to that belief have the conviction that they are saved. That is completely ouf of common sense. Human level, he never talks about it. Social contact, mutual help, understanding of each other, interest in other people, all the richness of human interconnections, love and hate and reconciliation, all the feelings, difficulties and basic questions, did you ever hear him talking about that? Or maybe i was in my mind and did not catch the message!

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Date: Thurs, Feb 01, 2001 at 17:23:33 (GMT) From: JohnT Email: None To: Jim Subject: He is a man without conscience Message:

I don't know if sociopaths are born or made. Maybe a bit of both - but probably more the latter than the former, I would imagine. But, I have no doubt, if Rawat underwent psychological assessment, he would be found lacking in his ability to consider other people. Rawat = Chief Minister in The Church of God the Utterly Indifferent.

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Date: Thurs, Feb 01, 2001 at 13:25:41 (GMT) From: Jean-Paul Email: None To: Mike Finch Subject: Mountains of chalanges Message:

Mike, Don’t feel obliged to respond to my questions. They are just material for reflection if you want. There is nothing sacred. Jean-Paul

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Date: Thurs, Feb 01, 2001 at 09:30:58 (GMT) From: Tim G Email: \ To: Joe Subject: Brilliant post Joe...Mike F please read nt Message:

whoa

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