Forum V: Archive
Compiled: Wed, Feb 14, 2001 at 05:07:59 (GMT)
From: Feb 03, 2001 To: Feb 13, 2001 Page: 3 Of: 5


Curious George -:- Mike Finch's posts -:- Wed, Feb 07, 2001 at 17:40:49 (GMT)
__ Francesca -:- Mike Finch's posts -:- Wed, Feb 07, 2001 at 18:30:35 (GMT)
__ __ Forum Admin -:- Mike Finch's posts -:- Wed, Feb 07, 2001 at 18:47:39 (GMT)

romilar -:- zippy's poll revisted -:- Wed, Feb 07, 2001 at 13:54:11 (GMT)
__ AJW -:- e.t. -:- Wed, Feb 07, 2001 at 15:53:00 (GMT)

ex-flowerchild -:- holy water -:- Wed, Feb 07, 2001 at 13:13:50 (GMT)
__ Elan Vital -:- holy water -:- Wed, Feb 07, 2001 at 22:57:44 (GMT)
__ __ ex-flowerchild -:- holy water -:- Fri, Feb 09, 2001 at 12:44:14 (GMT)
__ salam -:- His piss, sperm or his backside droppings -:- Wed, Feb 07, 2001 at 14:38:14 (GMT)
__ __ Scott T. -:- His piss, sperm or his backside droppings -:- Fri, Feb 09, 2001 at 09:53:47 (GMT)
__ Kelly -:- holy water -:- Wed, Feb 07, 2001 at 13:49:44 (GMT)
__ __ Cynathia -:- holy water--I believed it, too! -:- Fri, Feb 09, 2001 at 17:54:25 (GMT)
__ JHB -:- holy water -:- Wed, Feb 07, 2001 at 13:39:22 (GMT)
__ __ cq -:- ah! Uisque Va - Gaelic for water of life -:- Wed, Feb 07, 2001 at 18:14:01 (GMT)
__ __ __ JHB -:- ah! Uisque Va - Gaelic for water of life -:- Wed, Feb 07, 2001 at 18:50:15 (GMT)
__ __ AJW -:- John, maybe... -:- Wed, Feb 07, 2001 at 15:36:05 (GMT)
__ __ __ Postie -:- Bhog Prasad -:- Wed, Feb 07, 2001 at 16:38:11 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ janet -:- Bhog Prasad -:- Wed, Feb 07, 2001 at 18:30:46 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Joy -:- Bhog Prasad -:- Wed, Feb 07, 2001 at 17:56:04 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Postie -:- Bogus Prasad? -:- Wed, Feb 07, 2001 at 18:17:54 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Joe -:- Bogus Prasad? -:- Wed, Feb 07, 2001 at 20:53:17 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Joy -:- Bogus Prasad? -:- Wed, Feb 07, 2001 at 18:45:18 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Francesca -:- Bogus Prasad? -:- Wed, Feb 07, 2001 at 18:42:13 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Joy -:- Bogus Prasad? -:- Wed, Feb 07, 2001 at 18:48:34 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Francesca -:- The TRUE Thunderstealing Bitch, no lie n/t -:- Wed, Feb 07, 2001 at 19:03:57 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ janet -:- apt bldg off cheesman park--1242 Race st? -:- Wed, Feb 07, 2001 at 18:41:57 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Postie -:- 'Ashram Blues' -:- Wed, Feb 07, 2001 at 19:06:29 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ janet -:- no thats jan buchalter of manhattan-i stayed -:- Wed, Feb 07, 2001 at 19:12:11 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Postie -:- janet: OK - sorry (nt) -:- Wed, Feb 07, 2001 at 19:32:59 (GMT)

Steve Quint -:- An Insight I Would Like To Share -:- Tues, Feb 06, 2001 at 21:26:21 (GMT)
__ janet -:- we should do an MST3K viewing of the videos.. -:- Wed, Feb 07, 2001 at 20:54:33 (GMT)
__ __ Steve Quint -:- we should do an MST3K viewing of the videos.. -:- Wed, Feb 07, 2001 at 21:07:08 (GMT)
__ __ Marianne -:- MST3K -- OT -:- Wed, Feb 07, 2001 at 21:03:07 (GMT)
__ janet -:- problem--explain deaf premies, then....nt -:- Wed, Feb 07, 2001 at 19:24:15 (GMT)
__ Bazza -:- Good observation -:- Wed, Feb 07, 2001 at 04:55:46 (GMT)
__ __ ham -:- Think you're way overating him and us there Bazza -:- Thurs, Feb 08, 2001 at 05:41:05 (GMT)
__ Francesca -:- ... and lowering voice -:- Tues, Feb 06, 2001 at 23:51:19 (GMT)
__ __ hamzen -:- I looked at this for quite a while -:- Thurs, Feb 08, 2001 at 05:19:56 (GMT)
__ __ __ Scott T. -:- I looked at this for quite a while -:- Thurs, Feb 08, 2001 at 15:31:59 (GMT)
__ __ Scott T. -:- ... and lowering voice -:- Wed, Feb 07, 2001 at 04:40:49 (GMT)
__ __ __ Francesca -:- PROBABLY?????? -:- Wed, Feb 07, 2001 at 05:21:05 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Scott T. -:- Probablypadha. -:- Wed, Feb 07, 2001 at 13:36:43 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Francesca -:- Great post! You have just let me know ... -:- Wed, Feb 07, 2001 at 17:17:47 (GMT)
__ __ Pat Conlon -:- Abusers tactics -:- Wed, Feb 07, 2001 at 02:05:32 (GMT)
__ __ Joe -:- ... wow -:- Wed, Feb 07, 2001 at 00:05:41 (GMT)
__ __ __ Pat Conlon -:- Joe, the trick about ''satsang'' -:- Wed, Feb 07, 2001 at 02:11:35 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Francesca -:- Bravo -- juju and woo-woo! n/t -:- Wed, Feb 07, 2001 at 04:30:58 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Joe -:- Joe, the trick about ''satsang'' -:- Wed, Feb 07, 2001 at 02:15:08 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Pat Conlon -:- Joe, the trick about ''satsang'' -:- Wed, Feb 07, 2001 at 02:20:28 (GMT)
__ __ __ Francesca -:- Yes I was really blissed out ... -:- Wed, Feb 07, 2001 at 00:20:40 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Joe -:- The Group High and the Let Down -:- Wed, Feb 07, 2001 at 00:30:26 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Pat Conlon -:- PS Joe, the Chruch of Jhn Coltrane (OT/NS) -:- Wed, Feb 07, 2001 at 06:29:39 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Joe -:- PS Joe, the Chruch of Jhn Coltrane (OT/NS) -:- Wed, Feb 07, 2001 at 20:34:15 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Cynthia -:- Maharaji's performance: good discussion -:- Wed, Feb 07, 2001 at 01:28:44 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Pat Conlon -:- Cynthia, funny how many conmen are also abusers -:- Wed, Feb 07, 2001 at 02:17:58 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Cynthia -:- Pat, he talked about that... -:- Wed, Feb 07, 2001 at 02:51:27 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Roger eDrek -:- Cynthia, there really is Service for you at TRAC -:- Wed, Feb 07, 2001 at 04:08:02 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Thelma the Church Lady -:- Roger your pathetic attempts at -:- Wed, Feb 07, 2001 at 04:56:36 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Pat Conlon -:- Cynthia, satsang juju -:- Wed, Feb 07, 2001 at 03:24:17 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Marianne -:- Did you really say WIVES??? -:- Wed, Feb 07, 2001 at 14:47:44 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Francesca -:- Oh you guys are killing me! -:- Wed, Feb 07, 2001 at 04:51:42 (GMT)
__ ulf -:- An Insight I Would Like To Share -:- Tues, Feb 06, 2001 at 22:08:41 (GMT)
__ __ Steve Quint -:- You're Probably Right -:- Wed, Feb 07, 2001 at 01:26:29 (GMT)
__ __ __ ex-flowerchild -:- You're Probably Right -:- Wed, Feb 07, 2001 at 13:34:37 (GMT)
__ __ __ Cynthia -:- Steve, like I said, -:- Wed, Feb 07, 2001 at 02:56:08 (GMT)

Charles S -:- To Mike Finch and New People... -:- Tues, Feb 06, 2001 at 20:20:02 (GMT)
__ Robyn -:- To Mike Finch and New People... -:- Thurs, Feb 08, 2001 at 04:26:24 (GMT)
__ hamzen -:- Just a small point Charles -:- Wed, Feb 07, 2001 at 02:59:33 (GMT)
__ __ Pat Conlon -:- Now, Ham stop picking on my husband -:- Wed, Feb 07, 2001 at 03:29:28 (GMT)
__ __ Charles S -:- Yes, I would agree... -:- Wed, Feb 07, 2001 at 03:27:28 (GMT)
__ Turner -:- Ignorance vs Awareness -:- Wed, Feb 07, 2001 at 00:57:14 (GMT)
__ __ Scott T. -:- Ignorance vs Awareness -:- Thurs, Feb 08, 2001 at 16:08:29 (GMT)
__ __ Michael Dettmers -:- Awareness or Arrogance? -:- Wed, Feb 07, 2001 at 23:54:59 (GMT)
__ __ __ Turner -:- Awareness or Arrogance? -:- Thurs, Feb 08, 2001 at 20:35:05 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ hamzen -:- You, arrogant, perish the thought -:- Fri, Feb 09, 2001 at 01:27:43 (GMT)
__ __ __ Scott T. -:- Awareness or Arrogance? -:- Thurs, Feb 08, 2001 at 16:03:34 (GMT)
__ __ __ Deputy Dog -:- Awareness or Arrogance? -:- Thurs, Feb 08, 2001 at 02:50:29 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Michael Dettmers -:- Assessments vs Assertions -:- Thurs, Feb 08, 2001 at 04:19:55 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Deputy Dog -:- I don't believe it! -:- Fri, Feb 09, 2001 at 03:39:31 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Michael Dettmers -:- Oh, but you do! You just don't see it. -:- Fri, Feb 09, 2001 at 12:55:04 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Pat Conlon -:- Words -:- Fri, Feb 09, 2001 at 09:21:00 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Scott T. -:- You'd be better off if you did! -:- Fri, Feb 09, 2001 at 07:24:08 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Jim -:- Hey, both you guys, knock that out! -:- Thurs, Feb 08, 2001 at 15:39:52 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Scott T. -:- Hey, both you guys, knock that out! -:- Thurs, Feb 08, 2001 at 16:29:04 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Michael Dettmers -:- Hold on there Jim -:- Thurs, Feb 08, 2001 at 16:11:54 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ bill -:- Hmmm, good points..nt -:- Fri, Feb 09, 2001 at 02:34:27 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Francesca -:- Brilliant point, the realm of 'the Master' -:- Thurs, Feb 08, 2001 at 17:33:20 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Jim -:- Did you just threaten to kick me? -:- Thurs, Feb 08, 2001 at 16:25:32 (GMT)
__ __ Jim -:- Good post, Turner (nt) -:- Wed, Feb 07, 2001 at 03:21:01 (GMT)
__ __ hamzen -:- Is that a humour by-pass named Turner I see -:- Wed, Feb 07, 2001 at 02:53:11 (GMT)
__ __ __ Nigel -:- Turner's a laugh a minute -:- Wed, Feb 07, 2001 at 05:12:20 (GMT)
__ __ Pauline PWK -:- Ignorance vs Awareness -:- Wed, Feb 07, 2001 at 02:12:53 (GMT)
__ __ __ Thelma the Church Lady -:- Ignorance is Bliss -:- Wed, Feb 07, 2001 at 02:27:03 (GMT)
__ __ Charles S -:- Huh? You sound like a hamster stuck on the... -:- Wed, Feb 07, 2001 at 02:07:14 (GMT)
__ __ Pat Conlon -:- Turner, this is the biggest bunch of sophistry -:- Wed, Feb 07, 2001 at 01:56:33 (GMT)
__ __ __ Turner -:- You missed it Pat. -:- Wed, Feb 07, 2001 at 17:31:09 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ JohnT -:- You lost it Turner. -:- Thurs, Feb 08, 2001 at 14:47:58 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Inside -:- Please tell me one thing? -:- Thurs, Feb 08, 2001 at 08:04:30 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Turner -:- Please tell me one thing? -:- Thurs, Feb 08, 2001 at 20:29:15 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Jerry Lewis -:- Please tell me. One thing? -:- Thurs, Feb 08, 2001 at 23:15:35 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Jethro -:- Please tell me one thing? -:- Thurs, Feb 08, 2001 at 22:26:17 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Turner -:- Please tell me one thing? -:- Thurs, Feb 08, 2001 at 23:10:46 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Insideout -:- Come on Turner you can do better than that!(nt) -:- Fri, Feb 09, 2001 at 08:58:57 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Susan -:- I have heard this from two seperate insiders -:- Fri, Feb 09, 2001 at 00:31:24 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Jethro -:- I have heard this from two seperate insiders -:- Fri, Feb 09, 2001 at 01:14:57 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Insideout -:- Above message is to Turner from Insideout(nt) -:- Thurs, Feb 08, 2001 at 08:08:29 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Patrick Conlon -:- To Turner -:- Thurs, Feb 08, 2001 at 02:17:05 (GMT)
__ __ larkin -:- turner's tune.. -:- Wed, Feb 07, 2001 at 01:55:25 (GMT)
__ Francesca -:- Well you've just answered your own rhetorical -:- Wed, Feb 07, 2001 at 00:08:23 (GMT)
__ Bin Liner -:- Lot's of food for thought there , thanks. nt -:- Tues, Feb 06, 2001 at 21:21:25 (GMT)

Michael Read -:- enlightenment wars -:- Tues, Feb 06, 2001 at 19:38:58 (GMT)

Pauline Premie -:- Maharaji's message has never changed -:- Tues, Feb 06, 2001 at 18:30:24 (GMT)
__ Marianne -:- Smart cards and Heaven -:- Tues, Feb 06, 2001 at 22:36:18 (GMT)
__ __ Elan Vital -:- Smartcards -:- Tues, Feb 06, 2001 at 22:44:24 (GMT)

Mark -:- ex -premies are in a trap -:- Tues, Feb 06, 2001 at 08:49:22 (GMT)
__ G -:- mixed reaction -:- Wed, Feb 07, 2001 at 23:55:43 (GMT)
__ Aussi Ji -:- ex -premies are in a trap -:- Wed, Feb 07, 2001 at 09:47:18 (GMT)
__ Bazza -:- Couple of things puzzle me -:- Wed, Feb 07, 2001 at 04:30:01 (GMT)
__ __ Pat Conlon -:- Couple of things puzzle me - emailed you NT -:- Wed, Feb 07, 2001 at 08:18:45 (GMT)
__ __ Mark -:- good try -:- Wed, Feb 07, 2001 at 06:49:47 (GMT)
__ __ __ Scott T. -:- good try -:- Wed, Feb 07, 2001 at 17:27:21 (GMT)
__ Francesca -:- I don't think that folks' anger .... -:- Wed, Feb 07, 2001 at 01:15:07 (GMT)
__ __ Mark -:- people using this forum -:- Wed, Feb 07, 2001 at 03:01:54 (GMT)
__ __ __ Francesca -:- No, not at all, you're just new here! -:- Wed, Feb 07, 2001 at 05:54:07 (GMT)
__ __ __ Pat Conlon -:- Hi Mark, nice post, thanks -:- Wed, Feb 07, 2001 at 03:36:45 (GMT)
__ Nigel -:- It's a matter of civil courtesy, Mark... -:- Wed, Feb 07, 2001 at 00:23:40 (GMT)
__ __ Mark -:- It's a matter of civil courtesy, Mark... -:- Wed, Feb 07, 2001 at 00:56:15 (GMT)
__ __ __ Nigel -:- Did I hear an 'Ouch!?' -:- Wed, Feb 07, 2001 at 01:37:39 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Mark -:- Just a little one -:- Wed, Feb 07, 2001 at 03:41:13 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Nigel -:- jeez.. -:- Wed, Feb 07, 2001 at 06:03:36 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Mark -:- RE:jeez.. -:- Wed, Feb 07, 2001 at 07:49:04 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Jim -:- Mark, you don't understand what dialogue is -:- Wed, Feb 07, 2001 at 16:45:34 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Pat Conlon -:- Just a little Guiness -:- Wed, Feb 07, 2001 at 03:53:14 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Mark -:- I give up -:- Wed, Feb 07, 2001 at 04:28:30 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Pat Conlon -:- Mark, do I know you? -:- Wed, Feb 07, 2001 at 06:47:21 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Mark -:- Mark, do I know you? -:- Wed, Feb 07, 2001 at 07:00:43 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Pat Conlon -:- Mark, do I know you? -:- Wed, Feb 07, 2001 at 07:15:45 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Jethro -:- Thanks for that fact Pat -:- Thurs, Feb 08, 2001 at 08:31:36 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Pat Conlon -:- Religions were always exempt from apartheid -:- Thurs, Feb 08, 2001 at 09:01:13 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ cq -:- WHAT????? pardon me but this is DYNAMITE! -:- Wed, Feb 07, 2001 at 18:30:02 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Pat Conlon -:- WHAT????? pardon me but this is DYNAMITE! -:- Wed, Feb 07, 2001 at 20:37:38 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Pat Conlon -:- Mark, PS Yes , I know excatly what you mean by -:- Wed, Feb 07, 2001 at 07:36:08 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Mark -:- Coincidence or what? -:- Wed, Feb 07, 2001 at 08:09:16 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Pat Conlon -:- Coincidence or what? -:- Wed, Feb 07, 2001 at 08:16:24 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Mark -:- Coincidence or what? -:- Wed, Feb 07, 2001 at 08:39:29 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Pat Conlon -:- PS Mark, I'm off to bed - email me if you want -:- Wed, Feb 07, 2001 at 08:36:52 (GMT)
__ JohnT -:- et moi, Brute? -:- Tues, Feb 06, 2001 at 15:59:53 (GMT)
__ Jim -:- Yeah, it's a bit of a 'cause'. So? -:- Tues, Feb 06, 2001 at 14:35:11 (GMT)
__ __ JHB -:- Saving people from a whale -:- Tues, Feb 06, 2001 at 18:21:25 (GMT)
__ Scott T. -:- ex -premies are in a trap -:- Tues, Feb 06, 2001 at 14:25:29 (GMT)
__ Jethro -:- ex -premies are in a trap -:- Tues, Feb 06, 2001 at 12:38:28 (GMT)
__ Brian -:- Quickie-Premies are ignorant -:- Tues, Feb 06, 2001 at 12:24:00 (GMT)
__ __ salam -:- Could not say it any better, thank you..nt -:- Tues, Feb 06, 2001 at 15:29:32 (GMT)
__ JTF -:- This is why rawat's still dangerous -:- Tues, Feb 06, 2001 at 10:34:38 (GMT)

Steve Quint -:- Repost Of Cq/Jean-Paul Gem -:- Tues, Feb 06, 2001 at 05:13:32 (GMT)
__ Cynthia -:- Hi Steve--Maharaji is Dangerous -:- Thurs, Feb 08, 2001 at 17:56:37 (GMT)
__ cq -:- That's a tough situation you're in there, Steve -:- Tues, Feb 06, 2001 at 21:08:34 (GMT)
__ Jean-Paul -:- Repost Of Cq/Jean-Paul Gem -:- Tues, Feb 06, 2001 at 11:16:42 (GMT)
__ Francesca -:- Repost Of Cq/Jean-Paul Gem -:- Tues, Feb 06, 2001 at 06:29:05 (GMT)

la-ex -:- M's poetry: I'm starting to understand him now.... -:- Tues, Feb 06, 2001 at 03:31:23 (GMT)
__ AJW -:- M's poetry: I'm starting to understand him now.... -:- Tues, Feb 06, 2001 at 11:28:17 (GMT)
__ __ Conlon -:- M's poetry: Anth, did you ever hear of -:- Tues, Feb 06, 2001 at 19:53:57 (GMT)
__ __ __ Pat Conlon -:- Anth, the point of that story is that it turned -:- Wed, Feb 07, 2001 at 04:50:19 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ AJW -:- Committee would be an improvement -:- Wed, Feb 07, 2001 at 10:57:42 (GMT)
__ Scott T. -:- M's poetry: I'm starting to understand him now.... -:- Tues, Feb 06, 2001 at 06:15:46 (GMT)
__ __ ex-flowerchild -:- M's poetry: I'm starting to understand him now.... -:- Wed, Feb 07, 2001 at 12:39:41 (GMT)


Date: Wed, Feb 07, 2001 at 17:40:49 (GMT)
From: Curious George
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: Mike Finch's posts
Message:
I'm wasting too much time trying to find the Mike Finch Posts noticed recently. I had meant to go back and read them when I had the time. I now can't find them anywhere. I am very interested to read Mike Finches posts as I think he is the Micheal Dettmers of the U.K.! I think others will find them most enlightening too if I'm not mistaken.

Anyone care to brings these to the top again?

Thanks,

C.G.

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Date: Wed, Feb 07, 2001 at 18:30:35 (GMT)
From: Francesca
Email: None
To: Curious George
Subject: Mike Finch's posts
Message:
If they're not in the inactive index, you can find them in the archives. That's where they usually go next.
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Date: Wed, Feb 07, 2001 at 18:47:39 (GMT)
From: Forum Admin
Email: None
To: Curious George
Subject: Mike Finch's posts
Message:
Note that there's usually a delay of up to a week between posts disappearing from inactive and appearing in the archives. So if Mike's posts have gone from inactive, and haven't appeared in archives yet, just give it a few days.

Forum Admin

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Date: Wed, Feb 07, 2001 at 13:54:11 (GMT)
From: romilar
Email: rockyromilar@yahoo.de
To: Everyone
Subject: zippy's poll revisted
Message:
looks like the poll dropped back on zippy, his msg was even removed from the inactive index.so his tasteless suggestion was met by my evenly tasteless response to which in turn i received
four comments by some of you people .
i'd like to thank you for those responses and i'd like to say a few things to:
steve quint: never have bitten anyone's dust, don't be sad
hamzen: thanx for the jai sat chit anands, don't think i knew
you back in 1974, coz i didn't even know where edgware was 'til
i checked a map, take care
cq: yes you're right , it wasn't a nice thing to do to include
all you f... when i just meant one guy, you are right j.s.c.a.
shouldn't have been used in this context, do you accept my apo-
logies? BUT M has nothin to do with this, it's my personal wrath-
ful form i sometimes like to expose.
janet: !!!!congratulations you busted me on the web and uncovered my true identity!!! how didcha? i thought this stuff
was well off the market for the last 30 years... janet, dear
i swear i haven't touched it ever since.. i just thought it would
make a good e-mail address.. can i have your's? somehow one is
capable of getting the e-mail address since tim has answered to
my comment on my personal mail address and i don't know how he did it since i'm a beginner on the web.. so janet if you'd like
to let me know your very intimate enlightening romilar experiences your reply would be appreciated.
so that's it, i think i don't wanna comment on your favorite
subject prempal, but you should know this guru/master business
has been going on for quite a while in oriental cultures, be they
hindus, buddhists or even muslims/sufis, but it looks like the
western world has problems with dealing with those things.
well all of you wanted to devote your life to prempal 24 hrs a
day, so you moved in there ( the ashrams) ( some just stay there and dust away..)and all of a sudden your master tells you, alright ya
guys, just gimme 2 hrs of your daily time & you can have back
the rest and everybody flips out.. dealing with a master is tough,remember milarepa....and either you accept the master concept or you don't, i mean i moved out of the ashram after
3 months and i didn't drop dead... it's the devotees who create
a cult, i never dealt with dlm, duo or elan vital, i just dealt
with prempal and i have gone so far with him, i mean one of
the first things he said after his father's death was: the master
is gone and still you don't realize his TRUE FORM. as long as you
don't realize god within you you will see him in that form that
you WANT to see... o.k. everybody wanted to see prempal, ever
considered realizing what he talks about instead of running after
the physical form???? okay, i'll pack it in, hope you have a good life and if not, hell we're all gonna die...this seems to
be a pretty stupid planet anyway, i personally think prempal is
an e.t., like so many of us, unknowingly.....over&out

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Date: Wed, Feb 07, 2001 at 15:53:00 (GMT)
From: AJW
Email: None
To: romilar
Subject: e.t.
Message:
Hi romilar,

Are you named after one of the founder twins of Rome, or a cough medicine containing a reasonable percentage of opiates?

I picked up on the comment towards the end of your letter'maybe prempal is an e.t.' Does this stand for extreme tosser?

Anth, containing a reasonable percentage of red wine and pizza.

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Date: Wed, Feb 07, 2001 at 13:13:50 (GMT)
From: ex-flowerchild
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: holy water
Message:

What the hell was in it and why was it always so cloudy and where did it come from? His bath? Somewhere more sinister? I often saw white bits of matter floating about in it. What was that matter and where did it come from? From his body? If so which bits of his body? I wanted more of those floating white bits because I somehow thought they were extra holy. What has this done to my sexuality? How long did those little bottles sit in stuffy rooms before being carefully spooned out into many sweaty post-arti cupped hands to be greedily drank and smeared onto the the imaginary third eye? How was it distributed? Did it come in larger bottles? How did they gather it? Was there a use by date? Did anyone, overcome with a desire for faster Enlightenment, secretly gulp more than their fair share and if so what happened to them? Does the stuff still exist? What is the tradition of this whole gulping and smearing of close encounter cloudy water? Is there an authentic Hindu background to it? I need to know what I drank. Somebody please tell me. I feel ill...

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Date: Wed, Feb 07, 2001 at 22:57:44 (GMT)
From: Elan Vital
Email: None
To: ex-flowerchild
Subject: holy water
Message:
Dear ex-flower:

Elan Vital takes note of your inquiry about an ancient Hindu practice that existed for approximately 15 minutes after Maharaji came to the West, was scared by seeing a naked woman on a bed, spoke in a colloquial fashion, lived in a drafty flat in London, went through the hell of eating British 'food,' and then eliminated all Hindu concepts like 'holy water,' shortly after that.

Some of Maharaji's Western students were enthralled with the concept of 'holy water' because they were hippy dippy and had listened to George Harrison sing about Hinduism, and thus forced Maharaji, kicking and screaming against his will, to oblige them, briefly, like we said for just a few minutes one day. After much Hurculean effort, Maharaji brought his work into the 21st Century, years before it was really necessary. Also, he made sure that Elan Vital is not a cult, by making it different from a cult in a number of ways.

All 'holy water' ever was, was an attempt to end the thirst of people whom Maharaji cared about, 'thirst' being a major subject of Maharaji's teachings. Maharaji was so magnanamous to give water to the thirsty, and this is just one of the many enigmatic things he has done in his life. What he will do next is anybody's guess. We at Elan Vital wouldn't even try.

Sincerely,

ELAN VITAL: NOT HARBORING CHILD MOLESTORS SINCE 1999!

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Date: Fri, Feb 09, 2001 at 12:44:14 (GMT)
From: ex-flowerchild
Email: None
To: Elan Vital
Subject: holy water
Message:
oh EV you made me pee laughing
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Date: Wed, Feb 07, 2001 at 14:38:14 (GMT)
From: salam
Email: None
To: ex-flowerchild
Subject: His piss, sperm or his backside droppings
Message:
I was watching a program few days ago about the Japaneese cult that got banned because of the gas thing( cann't remember the name), rawat looks like a little mouse compared to there guru. Just days before he was arrested, he held initiation cermony where followers paid $8000 a head. They drak his bath water. Those that had money, over $100,000 could drink his sperm or his blood. In total this character raised a billion dollars in total.
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Date: Fri, Feb 09, 2001 at 09:53:47 (GMT)
From: Scott T.
Email: None
To: salam
Subject: His piss, sperm or his backside droppings
Message:
Salam:

The Japanese are the most non-religious people on earth, so this cult is evidence that the capacity for such nonsense is ubiquitous.

--Scott

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Date: Wed, Feb 07, 2001 at 13:49:44 (GMT)
From: Kelly
Email: None
To: ex-flowerchild
Subject: holy water
Message:
In India, after darshan the Indian premies are given a little pack containing a plastic bottle of 'charanamrit' holy water, a little packet of crystalised sugar and a packet of that red stuff to put a tilak on your third eye.

I was told that once upon a time Jujuji put his lotus tootsie in a bowl of water and this water is then used to sanctify endless gallons of it for ever more. If you use the example of homeopathy there is probably no residue of tootsie anymore, but ,of course the potency is increased a hundredfold. You are advised not to drink the water. (maybe thats just westerners) So I put it in my bath water once, nothing happened! I never ate the sugar and I never put the red stuff on my forehead. I probably don't know what I'm missing.

Occasionally someone would come around very excited with some bo prasad (spelling) the remnants from Jujuji's dinner plate...great excitement and ecstacy as you were given a grain of rice..Imagine ! He might have spat it out. Ooooh such divine grace. Yuk. It was always dificult when some sweet blissful Indian premie would be honouring you by offering these divine kitchen scraps. Usually I ate them!!
Kelly

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Date: Fri, Feb 09, 2001 at 17:54:25 (GMT)
From: Cynathia
Email: None
To: Kelly
Subject: holy water--I believed it, too!
Message:
Hi Kelly,

What you said about it multiplying in strength is exactly what everyone around me aways though. Then a Mahatma, Initiator, Instructor, whatever, would come through with ''especially new stuff'' (supposedly), and give it to the ashram folks, who would just dilute it in distilled water so everyone could have their own stash.

I recently found my holy water bottle, buried among some other trinkets and it was empty::(((

A juju relic, I guess. Maybe I just use it for a urine sample, next time I happen to need to give one to a doctor!

LOL,
What we used to believe!!

Cynthia

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Date: Wed, Feb 07, 2001 at 13:39:22 (GMT)
From: JHB
Email: None
To: ex-flowerchild
Subject: holy water
Message:
The woman who later became my wife put her head under the drain at Woodside Avenue when she believed the Lord's bathwater was draining out. I'm not sure if it did her any spritual good.....

NB: To Elan Vital - Is holy water something else that never really happened?

John who knows that holy water is distilled in Scotland and Latvia

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Date: Wed, Feb 07, 2001 at 18:14:01 (GMT)
From: cq
Email: None
To: JHB
Subject: ah! Uisque Va - Gaelic for water of life
Message:
- or Scotch, as the whisky up there is called.
.
.
.
Hey John, do you rembember the song we used to sing, back in the old days, to the tune of 'away in a manger'?

Didn't it go something like this:

.
.
.

I love when Maharaji's
bathwater's overflowing,

I love when the soapsuds
make bubbles for blowing;

I love when his toe-jam
gets stuck up my nose

I love when his bath-scum
and grace overflows.

.
.
.
Seriously though, as a former temporary resident of the so-called 'Divine residence', I did hear of a time when, for whatever reason, the bath he was in at Woodside Avenue overflowed. And though I know of at least one premie who stood with his mouth open in the room below, lapping up the dregs that were seeping through the ceiling, I just thank whatever powers there are that I wasn't that far gone myself.

Hope your ex has resolved the experience, John.

(but how?)

Regards,

Chris

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Date: Wed, Feb 07, 2001 at 18:50:15 (GMT)
From: JHB
Email: None
To: cq
Subject: ah! Uisque Va - Gaelic for water of life
Message:
cq wrote:-

Hope your ex has resolved the experience, John.

She has, Chris, read my journey.

John.

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Date: Wed, Feb 07, 2001 at 15:36:05 (GMT)
From: AJW
Email: None
To: JHB
Subject: John, maybe...
Message:
...your wife was trying to commit suicide by drowning.

Anth looking on the bright side.

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Date: Wed, Feb 07, 2001 at 16:38:11 (GMT)
From: Postie
Email: None
To: all
Subject: Bhog Prasad
Message:
Waiting for our Jumbo (D) to leave for India in 1972, we were gathered in the satsang room in that upper westside brownstone in New York. We could hear GMJ in the next room giggling and having a grand old time cooking something. Mahatma Rajeshwar told us all to gather and hold out our hands - right over left - for bhog prasad (sp?). In other words, GMJ had hissownself made us fudge. So we all lapped it up and very quickly found out it was Ex-Lax. Ho ho ha ha such blissful lila. Well, in one way it did help 'purify' us for the pilgramage to India.
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Date: Wed, Feb 07, 2001 at 18:30:46 (GMT)
From: janet
Email: None
To: Postie
Subject: Bhog Prasad
Message:
72nd st or 85th street ashram in manhattan. i helped paint the place in 74.

'ex lax purification'==my premie friend of 25 years who is deaf and frighteninly skinny caught intestinal poisoning in india 72, and had to have a colostomy to save his life from diarrhea.

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Date: Wed, Feb 07, 2001 at 17:56:04 (GMT)
From: Joy
Email: None
To: Postie
Subject: Bhog Prasad
Message:
I don't know how I got it into my head that I wanted to do this, but I just *had* to learn to cook for Maharaji, to which end I spent a week with a woman I'd become friends with, Anu, who had once been his cook and was a very accomplished Indian cook. I learned many things (and to this day can still put on a fabulous Indian dinner for my friends), but the main thing I learned, and that Maharaji liked, was the Indian sweets. Gulab Jamun, different halvahs, Ras Malai, Rasgulla etc. Over the years I perfected the Gulab Jamun recipe and made many hundreds for Maharaji which I would ship out to the residence whenever he was in town. His cooks knew who I was and that I wasn't a 'bongo' so they would serve these gulab jamuns to him and sometimes report back to me that he liked them, which would send me into raptures of course.

But the worst time was when, just before a festival the next day, Dennis Murphy (his cook at the time) came into my ashram bedroom and woke me up in the late night with some half-eaten gulab jamuns wrapped in tinfoil, bhog prasad for the humble devotee. I was absolutely OVER THE MOON blissed out by this, they had bites taken out and all, and got to eat it all myself. I went back to sleep floating out on a cloud of bliss and love. . . During that whole festival I had such a feeling of closeness and connection to Maharaji, like we'd shared some intimate secret. I felt so blessed that I had been allowed to actually feed the Lord's body!

Gag, barf. What a way to waste your life!

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Date: Wed, Feb 07, 2001 at 18:17:54 (GMT)
From: Postie
Email: None
To: Joy
Subject: Bogus Prasad?
Message:
Joy said: 'I was absolutely OVER THE MOON blissed out....'

It sounds like you had a truly wonderful experience. Why dismiss it now? It was you yourself that was feeling those things. Wasn't it was because you had made wonderful sweets for your beloved, no? Isn't it a bit like being married and having wonderful sex and long walks in the rain, then later all you can remember about the marriage was the empty beer cans and dirty sox? I can understand how you may feel pissed off now but then it was heaven, right?

I'm not trying to slam you - just curious about this reverse-revisionism. 'Everything back then was horrible - I was hypnotized into thinking I was having fun.' I'm not dismissing the current state of M-jism but hoping to reclaim a bit of joy from those times. Topic: maybe I'm full of it - discuss.

And I do remember those sweets you'd stay up all night making. I used to be one of your grateful guinea pigs you invited to sample the rejects. At that apartment building off Cheesman Park. By the way, that wasn't camel dung in the gulag jammies was it?

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Date: Wed, Feb 07, 2001 at 20:53:17 (GMT)
From: Joe
Email: None
To: Postie
Subject: Bogus Prasad?
Message:
To tell you the truth, I can count on one hand the number of times I was 'blissed out' as a premie. Yeah, there were a few times, but you have to look at it as a whole. How much crap did I put up with for the few moments of bliss?

There were some group highs, and there were some highs from just believing in something so strongly, and in cutting everything else out of your life. That is very powerful. Actually, I would say the best time in the cult was in the first year or so, when I completely changed my life, cut off everything from my past, moved into the ashram and felt very light and free, because I literally had nothing but my belief in a fairy tale guru, on whom I could pin all my hopes and fantasies.

I also am not angry, but the wasted years in the cult are the biggest regret of my life. The second biggest regret is all the hurt I caused my family and other people I loved. But the extremely wasteful use of my time, energy, the mis-direction of my love and attention is the worst of it. And yes, I do blame Maharaji for that. I'm responsible too, but so is he, the little fucker.

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Date: Wed, Feb 07, 2001 at 18:45:18 (GMT)
From: Joy
Email: None
To: Postie
Subject: Bogus Prasad?
Message:
Hi Postie. No, I'm not actually bitter or pissed off about it (perhaps you read my vibe wrong?). Just thinking it was all rather silly, the prasad thing.

I don't actually feel angry and bitter about those times, as some have suggested that I and others on this Forum are. It WAS major fun while it was happening (a lot of the time), but in retrospect does seem like somewhat of a ridiculous waste of time. I tell myself I should have been going to college and/or getting married and having kids in my 20s, two major life activities I missed out on thanks to my involvement in the ashram and DLM. But on the other hand I also have to honestly ask myself if I would have bothered to go to college anyhow (probably not, at that age), and have to conclude I may have been either working a boring 9-5 job as some of my girlfriends ended up doing, or else, more sinisterly, becoming involved in drugs or some other seedy lifestyle. I don't know what an alternative path would have been. The most likely thing would have been becoming involved in another, different cult instead of M -- I had tried Scientology for a year before becoming involved with the DLM. Perhaps I was just looking for a surrogate family, my own having broken up with divorce a couple years earlier.

But I've said this before here, that I don't really regret the time, mainly because of the good friends I have made (yourself included). No matter what I think of it now, it was MY path I tread during those 1970s and early 80s, and I take full responsibility for having gone down it.

On the other hand, it still doesn't stop me trying to warn others that it's a bogus path ultimately, and M is a phoney-baloney master and involvement with him is a major waste of time and money, like the sirens luring you off into a trance.

Anyhow, time to go practice my gulab jamuns. Actually I gave up making them, Swan and I had a discussion once about how the Bisquick forumla had changed and they don't come out the same anymore, so it's a waste of time trying. Too bad, all things must pass.

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Date: Wed, Feb 07, 2001 at 18:42:13 (GMT)
From: Francesca
Email: None
To: Postie
Subject: Bogus Prasad?
Message:
Postie, I agree, the bliss was real. It came from inside us, and everything in the universe instead of nod, nod, wink, wink, really from the Lord. There is a discussion in a thread below about this. We just mistakenly tacked it on to him, is all. As of course, we were encouraged and sometimes intimidated and cajoled into doing. ('Would you cut off your head for Maharaj Ji?')

The relationship analogy is apt. Those feelings come and go, and we tack them onto phenomena -- people, events, things. The only thing, I'm sure, that makes it a bit different than an ordinary relationship is that we gopis believed he was god. And he led us on.

'Chain, chain, chain,
chain of fools.'
--Aretha Franklin

'Look out for the Bull.'
--Schlitz Malt Liquor ads in the 70s

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Date: Wed, Feb 07, 2001 at 18:48:34 (GMT)
From: Joy
Email: None
To: Francesca
Subject: Bogus Prasad?
Message:
Hi Fran, I agree with what you say and especially liked your quote in the post below:

'I had a very cosmic experience in that darshan line. Amazing what paying accute attention to several moments in time will do. There's such a contrast to everything else. At the time I thought it was the spell of tubby. Now methinks it is the miracle of mindfulness.'

Yes, the miracle of mindfulness is indeed correct. The thing that gets me, as you say, is how he hijacked that miracle and turned the spotlight onto himself as the source of it. Talk about thunder stealing!

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Date: Wed, Feb 07, 2001 at 19:03:57 (GMT)
From: Francesca
Email: None
To: Joy
Subject: The TRUE Thunderstealing Bitch, no lie n/t
Message:
rawfat
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Date: Wed, Feb 07, 2001 at 18:41:57 (GMT)
From: janet
Email: None
To: Postie
Subject: apt bldg off cheesman park--1242 Race st?
Message:
doctor Ed lived there on the ground floor awhile, west side of the bldg? i lived across the hall from him with a group of new premies-don, tracy, phil, susan, bill, and one longtimer,, janice. and me.

i got sicker from eating the Krishna temple prasad than i ever did from MJ's table scraps. one time he sent a whole plate of unfinished dinner over to 1560 race and no one was around to eat it but me. the housemother insisted i sit down and eat it all, myself. nothing of note happened.

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Date: Wed, Feb 07, 2001 at 19:06:29 (GMT)
From: Postie
Email: None
To: Joy, Francesca, Janet
Subject: 'Ashram Blues'
Message:
I used to walk around singing the following - with apologies to Shri Dylan.

Oh, muhrahji, can this really be the end?
Stuck inside the ashram, with the darshan blues again.

The paradoy represented the absurdity of my longing for some connection with the divine.

Thanks Joy and Francesca for your replies. And Janet, the I'm not sure of the apartment building address. It's all a blur.
BTW: Are you / were you that outrageously fiery 'Little Jan' the readhead?

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Date: Wed, Feb 07, 2001 at 19:12:11 (GMT)
From: janet
Email: None
To: Postie
Subject: no thats jan buchalter of manhattan-i stayed
Message:
at her mom's apt in nyc with her in an emergency once. she's still undiluted, full strength, and doing the global chase after u-no-hoo to all programs.
she seems to have endless money, but i have never seen her work for any of it...
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Date: Wed, Feb 07, 2001 at 19:32:59 (GMT)
From: Postie
Email: None
To: janet
Subject: janet: OK - sorry (nt)
Message:
nt
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Date: Tues, Feb 06, 2001 at 21:26:21 (GMT)
From: Steve Quint
Email: the_avenger55@hotmail.com
To: Everyone
Subject: An Insight I Would Like To Share
Message:
One thing I discovered at the video event on Sunday which I find very important and disturbing is that m's only authority in his talks comes from raising his voice.

I was running a commentary on his talk, critiquing every sentence in my head as it was progressing. At one point in the middle he started raising his voice and continued doing it intermittently until the end. I found my set of reactions and thoughts and feelings change as soon as he started raising his voice. I realized I was being bullied but my mind froze to the point where I was not able to critique effectively any more.

I know only one person who used to raise his voice a lot in private conversation - my father. I can think of only one person who I have seen use voice raising as a regular technique in public speeches. Let's say his initials were A.H. and he died on April 30, 1945. I first saw m on April 30, 1977 at 'Peace Flight' in Montreal. What a day to choose for his big appearance in Monreal!

Steve

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Date: Wed, Feb 07, 2001 at 20:54:33 (GMT)
From: janet
Email: None
To: Steve Quint
Subject: we should do an MST3K viewing of the videos..
Message:
and study them with the sound turned off, to note down what kind of nonverbal expression his whole performance conveys. could be funny, could be revealing.

-----------------
* for those who may not know--
MST3K stands for 'mystery science theatre 3000'-
a campy tv series in which old movies of science fiction were screened as if beng viewed in a theatre, with the silhouettes of three wisecracking viewers in the movie seats in the foreground, making comments to each other and yelling at the characters on the screen, about the ridiculous things they were doing. one was human, one was a single switch servo with a bulb for a head, and i forget what the other was--anybody remember?

the idea being, to puncture the spell of the premise [ which, interestingly enough, is an anagram of 'premies'] with irreverent observations throughout.

now there would be a video event worth holding.

hey--maybe thats it! we ex's can start holding mirror events for ourselves, of what the others are doing, but in reverse. videos with no sound, videos with MST3K wisecracking to accompany, burlesques of the festivals.....lampoon it with abandon and gusto.

i like this better than latvian nights. my liver would, anyway.

heehee. bring back video nights in our homes...with a twist. inve our still premie friends. break the spell. a prize to the best spontaneous ad lib of the evening.

anyone?

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Date: Wed, Feb 07, 2001 at 21:07:08 (GMT)
From: Steve Quint
Email: the_avenger55@hotmail.com
To: janet
Subject: we should do an MST3K viewing of the videos..
Message:
Thank you for sending a message which I can understand. I have not seen that show but the idea of having mirror events is appealing. Obviously there would be a cost which would probably be prohibitive. Have you considered that or is this a pipe dream?

Steve

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Date: Wed, Feb 07, 2001 at 21:03:07 (GMT)
From: Marianne
Email: None
To: janet
Subject: MST3K -- OT
Message:
The license plate on my car is an homage to MST3K. I love the show. When they used to have Turkey Day and show the movies for 36 hours, I taped them all. I'd try to watch it during Thanksgiving Day, but people made me turn it off.

I don't think I could bear to watch videos of M.

Marianne

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Date: Wed, Feb 07, 2001 at 19:24:15 (GMT)
From: janet
Email: None
To: Steve Quint
Subject: problem--explain deaf premies, then....nt
Message:
hm?
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Date: Wed, Feb 07, 2001 at 04:55:46 (GMT)
From: Bazza
Email: None
To: Steve Quint
Subject: Good observation
Message:
Both yours and Fransesca's. He has definately 'mastered' the art of vocal manipulation - it would be interesting to send a couple of his tapes to someone who knows about this stuff, like a psychologist with a specialty in manipulative behaviour, and get an unbiassed opinion.

Anbody know such a person?

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Date: Thurs, Feb 08, 2001 at 05:41:05 (GMT)
From: ham
Email: None
To: Bazza
Subject: Think you're way overating him and us there Bazza
Message:
I'm certain he only gets away with it because of the distancing techniques and the very limited pallette, means anyone can get it, yet it's so unnatural a way of speaking you can't get a handle on it, so theres confusion. Then the only way to make sense of it is to project, ie back to the lila thing.

A classic example is those little insider jokes, where he makes it quite plain he IS who you think he is, but we don't want to mess up those who haven't got it yet, so I won't actually say it directly, lets just keep it between us unspoken eh.
Yet anybody with half a brain would spot that stuff, it's SO obvious, the premies laugh out loud as though no-one else will see it. A total dissonance state.
To agree with him at this point means you're prepared to deny every bit of social knowledge that is bog standard, once we allowed ourselves to be that compromised, it really didn't matter what he said, we were in for the ride.

I've been to videos with a couple of people not remotely interested in spiritual or gm matters who made it quite plain he was one of the worst examples of a fraud they had ever seen.

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Date: Tues, Feb 06, 2001 at 23:51:19 (GMT)
From: Francesca
Email: None
To: Steve Quint
Subject: ... and lowering voice
Message:
Steve:

Both Joe W. and I have noticed this. After NOT listening to him live or on tape for years, I saw him speak in Oakland in the mid 90s. He would raising his voice and yell. I found the intimidation tactic very demeaning and insulting. My self-esteem has gone up quite a few notices since I used to be a cowed premie. I'm not saying I'm too proud to take advice now, but I will not be intimidated by the likes of M.

Then, he would lower his voice and talk softly -- sometimes overdramatically and sometimes murmuring and cooing. Like he was talking to a baby. I don't know which was worse.

Abusers usually yell and hit people, and then kiss and make up. Then beat you up, then kiss and make up.

After not listening to him, the histrionics were laughable. And they didn't work. I found his yelling annoying and arrogant. Who's he trying to kid. He doesn't know SQUAT.

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Date: Thurs, Feb 08, 2001 at 05:19:56 (GMT)
From: hamzen
Email: None
To: Francesca
Subject: I looked at this for quite a while
Message:
and he seemed to have a very limited pallet, but what was striking was how each of the states were very consistent, almost robotic in their accuracy, there were also clearly defined boundaries between the states, he was either in one mode or the other, even when within the same sentance.
Suspect this enabled him to cover his lack of variety and 'convey' a sense of confidence/certainty, which we were all very keen to buy into.
It also took it out of the range of normal social discourse, which created another distancing effect, so that once partially bought into, it was much harder for us to compare against, a function that is very relevant to most of our interactions with 'others'.
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Date: Thurs, Feb 08, 2001 at 15:31:59 (GMT)
From: Scott T.
Email: None
To: hamzen
Subject: I looked at this for quite a while
Message:
Ham:

It also took it out of the range of normal social discourse, which created another distancing effect, so that once partially bought into, it was much harder for us to compare against, a function that is very relevant to most of our interactions with 'others'.

Very astute observation, and fits with the 'charismatic legitimacy' theory. In his case it's probably almost ingrained. Something he would have picked up by osmosis as part of his family legacy. Suggests the possibility that one of his children will pick up the gauntlet after he exits. It's ironic that this charisma has, itself, become routinized and violates the very notion of charisma. The next step would be to found an ongoing church and become part of the mainstream, which I think is exactly what's happening in India; or rather has been happening since the mid-ninteenth century. It will only look new to *us* once.

--Scott

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Date: Wed, Feb 07, 2001 at 04:40:49 (GMT)
From: Scott T.
Email: None
To: Francesca
Subject: ... and lowering voice
Message:
Francesca:

Voice modulation is a pretty standard speaking technique. They certainly teach it in Toastmasters. He probably uses it in an especially heavy handed way, of course. And yelling seems a bit childish.

--Scott

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Date: Wed, Feb 07, 2001 at 05:21:05 (GMT)
From: Francesca
Email: None
To: Scott T.
Subject: PROBABLY??????
Message:
Were you a premie?
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Date: Wed, Feb 07, 2001 at 13:36:43 (GMT)
From: Scott T.
Email: None
To: Francesca
Subject: Probablypadha.
Message:
Francesca:

[Reminded me of the Krishna Guru. I don't think he ever spoke, or if he did it was inaudibly.]

Shows you how much I paid attention. I thought M. was raising his voice because of the lousy amplifiers. As for heavy-handedness, I couldn't follow a 'speech' from beginning to end because it was so stultifyingly monotonous, so I rarely knew what he said. I basically depended on other people to tell me afterward. If he varied his amplitude for effect I guess there where those of us on whom it didn't work. Beyond redemption, or something. Maybe he should join Toastmasters. That would be hilarious.

--Scott

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Date: Wed, Feb 07, 2001 at 17:17:47 (GMT)
From: Francesca
Email: None
To: Scott T.
Subject: Great post! You have just let me know ...
Message:
... one of the reasons why he yelled and dropped to sotto voce. I am still laughing. Great post.

Since he rambled on boringly, without the vocal dynamics, hardly anyone would have paid any attention at all. That laugh brought a tear to my eye. Thanks again!

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Date: Wed, Feb 07, 2001 at 02:05:32 (GMT)
From: Pat Conlon
Email: None
To: Francesca
Subject: Abusers tactics
Message:
Francesca you said: ''Abusers usually yell and hit people, and then kiss and make up. Then beat you up, then kiss and make up.''

I told Cynthia this story. I'm not sure if you saw it.

In 1974 at the Copenhagen divine circus my lover was assigned to do security service outside M's hotal suite. As he stood outside the door it suddenly burst open and Sampuranand came running out screaming with M hot on his heels.

M pushed S to the floor and began to punch S in the face viciously all the while screaming, ''You stole my camera.''

S was sobbing and pleading and saying that he had not stolen the camera. Marolyn appeared and said, ''Your camera's still in the suitcase.''

M stopped hitting S and began to beg for his forgiveness. Both men were in tears and hugging. Marolyn said, ''The way you two are going on, you'd think you were queers.'' She went back into the room and slammed the door.

My lover was totally devastated by this event and lost all faith in M and eventually dropped out altogether.

Me, silly gopi: I thought it was a lila and was charmed by the story. I had just had darshan for the first time and was hooked on the bhakti juju.

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Date: Wed, Feb 07, 2001 at 00:05:41 (GMT)
From: Joe
Email: None
To: Francesca
Subject: ... wow
Message:
You know, Francesca, I can't wait to meet you again, because your 'voice' is so different now. I have this memory of you as being this total devotee, pining for Maharaji.

I have this memory of you giving satsang in 1981. We were going to have this 'program' at Davies Symphony Hall and Big M was going to come. We were getting ready for it, and Barbara Mahler was giving blissful satsang that the hall had been built for Maharaji, although the people who built the hall for some unconscious symphony didn't know that . Irecall having really mixed feelings at the time -- the start of the dry rot of my devotion.

Anyhow, I remember you getting up in satsang, singing some really beautiful devotional song and talking about how blissed out you were when you saw 'the hall' from the Muni Bus you were taking home from work. It was all just so much love and bliss. So bizarre to think about the stuff we said and the way we felt.

Question -- were you really blissed out, or were you just saying you were?

By that point I had a hard time even SAYING I was blissed out, but for some time before that I SAID I was, but mostly wasn't. I guess I was trying to convince myself.

Anyhow Maharaji came to Davies, said a bunch of incoherent nonsense that the people I brought to this introductory program thought was drivel, and that was that. I recall being really embarrassed that Maharaji was such a dud.

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Date: Wed, Feb 07, 2001 at 02:11:35 (GMT)
From: Pat Conlon
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: Joe, the trick about ''satsang''
Message:
I learned quite early on that, no matter how shitty or depressed I was feeling, that if I started talking as if I was blissed out I would lighten the spirits of my audience and their joyful attention to me would in turn lift my spirits and I would get high.

Pope Rawat has coasted on this ''satsang juju'' group high for 35 years - probably why he does not meditate. It was also why I was regarded by you and others as being a ''preacher.'' I was so freaked out when I knew you that all I could do was use the old satsang juju. All of Maharaj-jism can be deconstructed psychologically.

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Date: Wed, Feb 07, 2001 at 04:30:58 (GMT)
From: Francesca
Email: None
To: Pat Conlon
Subject: Bravo -- juju and woo-woo! n/t
Message:
rawfat
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Date: Wed, Feb 07, 2001 at 02:15:08 (GMT)
From: Joe
Email: None
To: Pat Conlon
Subject: Joe, the trick about ''satsang''
Message:
I know what you mean about satsang. I think that's why it was such a mistake for Maharaji to end it. Listening to videos is muy boring to most premies, and that's why most never do it.
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Date: Wed, Feb 07, 2001 at 02:20:28 (GMT)
From: Pat Conlon
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: Joe, the trick about ''satsang''
Message:
He ended satsang because he is a megalomaniac and saw that some of us were becoming as powerful at the gig as he was.

PS Do you know why he changed his name from Maharaj Ji to Maharaji? Because he knew that his religion one day would be referred to by historians as Maharaj Jism.

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Date: Wed, Feb 07, 2001 at 00:20:40 (GMT)
From: Francesca
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: Yes I was really blissed out ...
Message:
... I just hadn't figured out that it had precious little to do with Maharaji. It is just as several folks have so eloquently said here (sorry, I can't remember whether it was Chuck S., Gerry, Brian, JHB, or all of them) -- we took an experience that comes from inside, and tagged it on him. After all, he 'gave' us K and told us that what we experienced in K was really HIS love. The groupthink and the hype didn't help, either.

I don't think any of the bliss was fake. But the crap that came out of our mouths when we felt the bliss, well I just don't know. And, I'm just not looking to whip myself up into bliss anymore. I think that was a byproduct of my drug days. I went from alcohol and hard drugs to Knowledge. I think with only a month's break, although I was phasing out my nasty habits for quite a few months before K. The needle or the doughnut of light?

It seems there's more to life than wowie zowie. And somehow I think that being mindful, being connected to others, to nature, to whatever comes up, although a lot more plain and simple, is deeper and more eloquent. Just like someone drunk out of their mind, a blissball says all sorts of stuff.

Knowledge is about being into my experience, my bliss, yada yada. Somewhat selfish of a goal. And I don't believe ultimately attainable. At least for me, I have to expand myself to become a part of everything around me, and others, lose some of my self importance, self cherishing and self clinging, to have any whiff of peace of mind. As long as I pursue it, it eludes me.

Yes, it will be good to see you.

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Date: Wed, Feb 07, 2001 at 00:30:26 (GMT)
From: Joe
Email: None
To: Francesca
Subject: The Group High and the Let Down
Message:
I think part of what kept many of us going, including me, was this idea that some future event was going to be 'it.' First it was Millennium, then it was dedication in the ashram, the plane, the WWA, etc., maybe we were going to get some great service or the possibility of being near M, etc.

Like when M was going to come to San Francisco, I think there was a kind of 'group high' that happened, and it was reinforced by this idea that we were having some great experience inside that was going to manifest externally through us and Maharaji and everyone would see it. Yes, that feeling was real, but it had zippo to do with Maharaji and that program and the dud that M was, I think, was kind of a turning point for me. Clearly, I was having serious doubts prior to that, so there was fertile ground for seeing Maharaji as a bumbling 'master' who was someone I was embarrassed to tell my new non-premie friends I followed and revered.

And I recall in SF a huge let-down after that program, when very little, if anything changed. It was then that I began to spend more time with my new non-premie friends, withdrew from all the propagation crap, and began to distance myself from premies and Maharaji, even though I was still living in the ashram. Maybe I was growing up.

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Date: Wed, Feb 07, 2001 at 06:29:39 (GMT)
From: Pat Conlon
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: PS Joe, the Chruch of Jhn Coltrane (OT/NS)
Message:
BTW I'm glad you mentioned the Ken Burns jazz series on PBS. KCSM is re-showing it from part one.

I'm sure you know that last year the Church of John Coltrane had to close because the dotcommies have driven up the rents in SF so much. Someone offered the church a new venue but I haven't heard where. Do you know?

For non-San Franciscans: the Church of John Coltrane regards him as a saint and the Coltrane church ladies worship the holy man by smoking weed or taking LSD or XTC and dancing to Johnny's tenor sax ragas. Only in San Francisco.

SF is also home to www.kcsm.org where you can hear 24 hour jazz.

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Date: Wed, Feb 07, 2001 at 20:34:15 (GMT)
From: Joe
Email: None
To: Pat Conlon
Subject: PS Joe, the Chruch of Jhn Coltrane (OT/NS)
Message:
THe Church of John Coltrane, which for so many years had been in the lower Haight, has been 'sofa hopping' using other churches on both sides of the bay while looking for a new location. I heard this on KPFA just yesterday morning.
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Date: Wed, Feb 07, 2001 at 01:28:44 (GMT)
From: Cynthia
Email: None
To: Steve Quint
Subject: Maharaji's performance: good discussion
Message:
Hi Steve,

Your observations about Maharaji were very astute. I also want to say that your ability to go to a video and observe so objectively tells me you must be doing well. I hope so.

Joe and Francesca, your conversations have reminded me of that question which I continually ask: what was I really feeling? Bliss?

First, Maharaji is a master of manipulation--he's has a lot of practice at that, especially in his on stage performances. The nuances of his voice patterns combined with the words he spoke put premies, IMO, into trances.

Remember those week long festivals? During one of them (can't remember which) an afternoon program, it was a hot, gorgeous day and he came on stage. M ripped us new assholes that day, yet he tempered his speech with great volume to whispers:

''What is the value of M's satsang, what is the price of one word? Who are we to ask M for anything, who are we to be in the presence of M or even look at M?'' Very loud voice. Then he'd calm it down gradually to that whisper, Francesca, probably because he knew it was hot outside and just freaked everyone out, he'd say something like: ''Pray to M, beg him, them him help me more, because I am the worst of the bunch, and M will come and bring you to his world. It's that simple.'''

This is all paraphrased but pretty close because I remember my reaction was that I became a puddle in my tears. Then at night, Maharaji would come out and now it's time for fun, let's celebrate! But Joe, Steve, and Francesca, I really think by then he had mastered the conman manipulation scheme!

Everything you all have said has helped clarify my experiences. I felt a lot of bliss. I had powerful experiences I cannot explain. Maybe it was because I happened to meditate a lot, who knows? But those experiences, which I attributed directly to Maharaji always belonged to me. And to top it off, that's what he would tell us, except it really was because of HIM. With that hook, that caveat, the NEED for the master, the lord whatever, he kept us coming back to him.

Thanks for your posts. They helped me a lot.

Love,
Cynthia

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Date: Wed, Feb 07, 2001 at 02:17:58 (GMT)
From: Pat Conlon
Email: None
To: Cynthia
Subject: Cynthia, funny how many conmen are also abusers
Message:
Criminologists have seen the connection for years. It is all part of the sociopathic personality. Pope Rawat unfortunately, as Francesca said, has never been criticized or if he has been, he has dismissed it petulantly like the spoilt rich brat that he is. His father was also a violent and arrogant man and his sons lived in fear of him.
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Date: Wed, Feb 07, 2001 at 02:51:27 (GMT)
From: Cynthia
Email: None
To: Pat Conlon
Subject: Pat, he talked about that...
Message:
During the, what was it? The 25th anniversary of his being in the west? He talked about the holy family and how they weren't so holy. He spoke about the violence in his home and how he mostly just sat in a corner to avoid it all. Bricks flew, contant raging of the father, then between the older brothers. He certainly had good training for becoming an abuser.

But, as we advocates of survivors of abuse or crimes, ''There's no excuse for abuse.'' It's as simple as that.

I liked what you and Joe had to say about premies giving satsang. I was very good at it. And I was very good at moderating a satsang program by choosing the ''right'' people to give satsang, and as a moderator (or whatever the buzz word was at the time) give 'em a big 'ole bang at the end, with some music, (chosen by me and band members, and depending on the mood) and there you go! Everybody blissed, at least until they get to their broken down cars in the middle of winter and remember that the rent is due a week ago and there's a program in three weeks.

In Gainesville I was annointed as the Assistant Church Lady Community Coordinator. Of course, it was because I loved M sooo much, and I'd had the great opportunity to serve directly at his lotus feet, you see. I got to organize a regional program once and it was a great boost to my premie ego. I planned everything, the community coordinator, Randy something (not prouty) just left everything to me. 600 premies and their kids came (thank god no dogs!). I planned the program, was the emcee, of course, and coordinated everything from childcare to food service to security--everything.

As a bona fide gopi it was very easy to manipulate the crowd (because I didn't know I was in a cult), had extra super-duper spiritual ego support from the community at large which at that time, in 1980, was 200 mostly active and contributing premies!

In retrospect I believe that facade became thinner and thinner as I stayed in Gainesville. I hate Florida--to this day! I despise that state, especially now, politically, but I digress. The facade of devotion wears thin on a truly conscious person, and I don't mean conscious of M or K.

Joe was right, losing the sense of community and forbidding premies to give satsang was his biggest mistake. What an idiot. When I went back to ''video events'' after a long stretch away from the lard, I thought what is he thinking? Everybody in the western world has vcrs, and now he wants us to get people to come to a ''venue'' to watch a video?

He's nuts--blew it big time. The communities, as weird as they all were in their own idiosyncratic ways, were his glue. So EV monitors, take that to your lord's pipe and have him smoke it!

Love,
Cynthia

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Date: Wed, Feb 07, 2001 at 04:08:02 (GMT)
From: Roger eDrek
Email: drek@oz.net
To: Cynthia
Subject: Cynthia, there really is Service for you at TRAC
Message:
I liked what you and Joe had to say about premies giving satsang. I was very good at it. And I was very good at moderating a satsang program by choosing the ''right'' people to give satsang, and as a moderator (or whatever the buzz word was at the time) give 'em a big 'ole bang at the end, with some music, (chosen by me and band members, and depending on the mood) and there you go! Everybody blissed, at least until

Sorry, to break in on this serious and very excellent discussion (Good post, Steve!), but down in TED Farkel's TRAC things get a little too rowdy...

Anyway, how true it is and was that the venue and the ambiance made the whole thing somewhat pleasant, enjoyable, and even blissful a lot of the time. And as it kinda turns out it was us the little people who made it happen. It was our energy, our love and our effort. Too bad it was wasted on Googoo McGreedy.

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Date: Wed, Feb 07, 2001 at 04:56:36 (GMT)
From: Thelma the Church Lady
Email: None
To: Roger eDrek
Subject: Roger your pathetic attempts at
Message:
luring us poor unsuspecting gopis down to TRAC to do service are falling on deaf ears - TED and his pigs and oil drum banging in Alabama. No cache. Now if you relocated TED and TRAC to India you could still have all the mud and pigs and dirt BUT you would also have the cache of the ''mystic east.''

But keep up your tireless efforts to synchronize us poor absent minded bliss puppies into true participation and gratitude.

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Date: Wed, Feb 07, 2001 at 03:24:17 (GMT)
From: Pat Conlon
Email: None
To: Cynthia
Subject: Cynthia, satsang juju
Message:
You said: When I went back to ''video events'' after a long stretch away from the lard, I thought what is he thinking? Everybody in the western world has vcrs, and now he wants us to get people to come to a ''venue'' to watch a video?

He needs the live audience to get his satsang juju juices flowing. Have you ever seen any of those videos that he recorded at home by himslef talking into his camcorder? He sounds like a dull, boring, nouveau riche, provincial hick.

Like you, I was a star satsanger, having understood the juju. Also interestingly, like you, I was CC (twice, in Cheltenham and Durban) and knew how to whip up an audience. Also like you I was abused as a child.

My mother was a violent-tempered farm-girl maniac who did the old abuser juju on me smack/kiss-scream/tears of regret cycle. She was a control freak. I grew up the same and it took me several wives and husbands before I SAW what I was doing and that I had to stop it dead in its tracks.

I think one of the reasons that I forgave Pope rawat for his obvious character flaws was because I understood them and sympathized. For instance the Sampuranand anecdote. I thought that showed how ''human'' and loveable M was.

It was only when I saw that my flaws were no longer tolerable that I began to wonder why he had not mended his ways.

PS Leave no stones unturned.

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Date: Wed, Feb 07, 2001 at 14:47:44 (GMT)
From: Marianne
Email: delores@gofree.indigo.ie
To: Pat Conlon
Subject: Did you really say WIVES???
Message:
You had wives? You mean there's hope for the FH????????

I have nothing of substance to say here these days. I'm pouring it all into my other writing project.

Love, Marianne

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Date: Wed, Feb 07, 2001 at 04:51:42 (GMT)
From: Francesca
Email: None
To: Pat Conlon
Subject: Oh you guys are killing me!
Message:
Cynthia, Pat et al.:

You are just hitting nails on the heads all over the place. I had the satsang juju down also. Many of us did. Pat you described it perfectly. If you get started and connect with the people around you, you can feed on the group energy and go beyond your own miserable pittance of an experience (or little ball of bliss, depending upon what day it is). Of course I did the music juju too. I've always understood the music to be a group experience -- and/or at least an experience that comes through me, even when I'm alone. It's not self generated. We always lifted each other up. Just plain old us.

I was also an abused child. Mostly mental abuse. My mother was a fishwife, screamer, sometimes a smacker with anything she could lay her hands on. A real control freak brought to the brink of her own private hell because she'd had too many kids and couldn't cope with it, and couldn't control it. No space for her and her dreams and just to plain unfold. Until I was 13 I tried to please her, and the nuns and priests. I cried when I couldn't be good enough. Then I said 'fuck you' to everyone and thought I was done with it. My mom changed during menopause, and can't totally relate to her out of control old self (thought I've done a few imitations for her).

Of course, I went around for years trying to please impossible people until I caught myself at it. I thought. But all those years for 'spiritual' reasons I went through the 'I am not worthy' with M.

Trying to please impossible people. A deal made in hell.

Love, F

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Date: Tues, Feb 06, 2001 at 22:08:41 (GMT)
From: ulf
Email: None
To: Steve Quint
Subject: An Insight I Would Like To Share
Message:
Hi steve
Have you ever been thinking about your father, who as you
said used to raised his voice.
My father did the same,
Perhaps your father is one of the reasons that you
became a premie
You know,, it was just like being at home , and you knew what wouldt be the next thing.

ulf

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Date: Wed, Feb 07, 2001 at 01:26:29 (GMT)
From: Steve Quint
Email: the_avenger55@hotmail.com
To: ulf
Subject: You're Probably Right
Message:
I hope Jim doesn't read this as the last time I attempted some psychoanalysis of this kind of thing Jim crucified me (criticized me).

If you analyzed why only certain people became attracted to m and k you'll probably find 'dysfunctional family' issues and so on. Jim - I'm wrong, right?

Steve

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Date: Wed, Feb 07, 2001 at 13:34:37 (GMT)
From: ex-flowerchild
Email: None
To: Steve Quint
Subject: You're Probably Right
Message:
But you can't simply say it's a family affair. People live in the world. Families are not hermetically sealed social units. There are larger issues, broader reasons why fundamentalism is seductive. If you just say, well it was because mummy and daddy were a bit fucked up, then you really just enter into this lengthy psychological deconstruction where you trace their problems back to their family and the whole family tree gets analysed for toxic dynamics. Maybe the family was dysfunctional because they were oppressed by a socio-economic system that had an investment in keeping them unhappy and dysfunctional, because they lost their jobs, because they came from the wrong class, ethnic background etc. Who knows. I think psychoanalysis tends to individualise the problem.
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Date: Wed, Feb 07, 2001 at 02:56:08 (GMT)
From: Cynthia
Email: None
To: Steve Quint
Subject: Steve, like I said,
Message:
you are right. It doesn't matter what Jim has to say. He's only one person here.

I think your observations, as I said above, are spot on, as the Brits would say. I'm starting to adopt or affect some of their expressions, and I rahther say I like it!

I like you a lot Steve, you're growing, that's a good thing.

Love,
Cynthia, Not Martha Stewart

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Date: Tues, Feb 06, 2001 at 20:20:02 (GMT)
From: Charles S
Email: bctanda@hotmail.com
To: Everyone
Subject: To Mike Finch and New People...
Message:
I've been asking myself, what do I really have to contribute to this board? I didn't go through the heavy 70's indoctrination, like many or most of the people who post here have. I'm not as angry or bitter about my experience in the cult, because I stayed mostly on the fringe, and was not as badly damaged or hurt as many people were. I think how angry you are has a lot to do with how damaged you feel. So I ask myself, what do you have to contribute?

The only thing I can think of is, that I am a recent ex. Someone who 'stayed in touch' for 20 years, then left.

I see people like Mike Finch, who is hesitating to answer what he calls the 'difficult questions'. He was much more involved than I ever was, but I can relate. People who have stayed for a long time, may have been getting something out of it. Their perception is not that it was all bad, but that some parts of it always bothered them and they are now wondering if they can separate some of the good from the bad. They are really asking themselves, do I really need the guru to be happy? That is a big step to take for many people.

Mike, I can only say, regarding the difficult questions, that sometimes you don't know what you really think untill you hear what you have to say about it. Often trying to put those answers in to words for others will clarify what you really think to yourself at the same time. And if it doesn't come out right at first, that is ok. If you have to clarify or otherwise explain, that can help you clarify and explain to yourself. The forum can be good for this. And if you just don't know, that's ok too. Some things just take time.

I've been thinking about something that Joy said in an earlier post. She said she was uncomfortable with people still doing the meditation because she saw it as a 'lure', to lure people into being devoted to M. Because she personally didn't benifit from the kriyas, she felt it hard to believe anyone did, and finds it hard to believe anyone can practice them without the devotional feelings.

I really can understand that. Especially for people who got the full Whammy in the begining. I definitely was lured in by the meditation. There were lots of things in Satsang at that time, that I found appealing, too, all of which acted as a lure. Cults and religions both have their lures, their broad, universally apprealing good sounding stuff, things that attract people. However, devotion was somewhat de-emphasized during the eighties, and/or I was just too much on the fringe, a 'bad' premie, so I never came to think of M. as more important than the meditation itself. I certainly had more access to the meditation than to M. I stuck it out, accentuated the things I felt were good and helpful, and ignored other things that were not helpful or that didn't mean anything, simply because I had nowhere else to turn for information. Now there is this website. The information about the Radhasoami's also helped me to put pieces of the puzzle together. Understanding the traditions it evolved from helped a lot.

Selig Ram, considered by many to be the Father of the Radhasoami faith, was famous for his satsangs, which were always about love. Reading up on him, I felt he also taught a lot of religous crap that is not to my tastes. But he was loved by many. He advocated rights for women, in ways which were just not the done thing back in India in the 1800's. He did charity for the poor, built schools and got college scholarships for promising students from poor families, so they could get a western education. He loved people, and was loved in return. Love was his lure.

Before he died, he expressed concern that when he died, others would take his teachings and run with them, altering them into new cults that taught things he never inteneded. He was right. We have seen this happen. Elan Vital is one example.

I feel that when I came to Knowlege, love was a lure, too. But like so many lures, it was mixed up with a lot of crap. Many current would-be exes are teetering on the edge, because of the good things. When I think of all those good things, those lures, that got me involved, many of them still have some appeal. I don't think the things that ATTRACTED me to being interested in Knowledge in the first place, are necessarily bad. Many peoples motives for being interested in M. and K. were good. Peace of mind, world peace, whatever. People may have been young and naive, but they were often sincere. Many premies, (though certainly not all), were sincere, kind and loving people. Their sincerity was exploited, by a guru who was not being honest about what he was doing, teaching religion and claiming it's not, running a church and claiming it's not, who changed the rules when it suited him, and used up people like a resource, and now pretends he didn't. As Joe said, he lied. And still does.

In the early 80's, when M. started to abandon a lot of the Indian aspects of his 'Knowlege', I was relieved. As time went on, I even hoped he would make it simpler, in ways that would be better recieved in western culture. I got into the meditation, and hoped it would be made more easily available. Instead, in recent years, the opposite seemed to happen. The relevence of the techniques has actually been diminished, other than keeping them a secret. The 'Master' has become all important. The bhakti devotion has been brought back full force, but with western window dressing. The new machine is clean and smooth and slick. I began attending the committee meetings to see if I could feel any of that love I first felt when I got involved with the hippie premies in the Haight in 1981. But I didn't. Some of the people were nice enough, but it felt like committee meetings for a church, only our Jesus was still alive! I didn't even believe in 'The Messiah', ANY messiah, so that didn't help me. I began to feel more like a resource to be exploited than someone doing something out of love. Where was the 'love' that 'lured' me in, in the first place? It wasn't there, nor could I re-introduce it. This was about serving the Master. I obviously didn't understand.

I said we didn't have any aspirants, because we were not open to new people. I felt you didn't have to try to convince anyone of anything, that if you were loving, love would attract those it was meant to. The suggested solution was propagation packets. It sounded like we were talking about agriculture, not people. The video of the training seminar about how to talk about Knowlege was the final straw. Seminars on how to talk about Knowlege, so we would all be syncronized, talking about Knowlege in the same way, at the same time. It sounded like the Moonies. Or the Borg. Where was the love? I left.

I still like those lures, those things that attracted me to being interested in Knowledge in the first place, but they were more important to me than what I was being asked to accept in their place. The lure was real to me, and I didn't accept it so I could become a fish in a frying pan, a resource to be used. Where is the love? It starts with me. Third parties are not necessary. Once you have really seen through that, there is no going back. I don't feel in danger of being 'sucked in again'. The spell is broken.

At one time, I had accepted a guru, a teacher, but I never wanted to be a nice, obedient dog for a MASTER. It's not like I didn't try to love M., or that the ju-ju had no effect. I sent my checks in. I just never formed as deep an EMOTIONAL connection that so many premies did. I like what Roy said in his recent post, regarding William James, who said about religious conversion: ''persons who have passed through conversion, having once taken a stand for the religious life, tend to feel themselves identified with it, no matter how much their religious enthusiasm declines.''

I feel that is where a lot of current premies are at right now. For die hard premies, we can do nothing. I don't need to convince anyone of anything. But for the fence-sitters, those who think they want to seprate the good from the bad and move on, we have a lot to offer them.

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Date: Thurs, Feb 08, 2001 at 04:26:24 (GMT)
From: Robyn
Email: None
To: Charles S
Subject: To Mike Finch and New People...
Message:
Dear Chuck,
“Mike, I can only say, regarding the difficult questions, that sometimes you don't know what you really think until you hear what you have to say about it. Often trying to put those answers in to words for others will clarify what you really think to yourself at the same time. And if it doesn't come out right at first, that is ok. If you have to clarify or otherwise explain, that can help you clarify and explain to yourself. The forum can be good for this. And if you just don't know, that's ok too. Some things just take time.”
This is so true in all areas, not just dealing with m. Thanks for pointing it out here though, I guess that is what I think Sandy is doing too.

Glad you don’t worry about being sucked in again. A good feeling to trust yourself, your instincts.
I do think the fact that you are a recent ex is a valuable position to be in for others approaching a similar status. Us long time exes had such different experiences, even though I got out easily and wasn’t hurt by my involvement I can only empathize with how things are now, not really relate and being understood is so important.

“I feel that is where a lot of current premies are at right now. For die hard premies, we can do nothing. I don't need to convince anyone of anything. But for the fence-sitters, those who think they want to seprate the good from the bad and move on, we have a lot to offer them.”
Here, here! :)
Love,
Robyn

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Date: Wed, Feb 07, 2001 at 02:59:33 (GMT)
From: hamzen
Email: None
To: Charles S
Subject: Just a small point Charles
Message:
I really don't think sincerity excuses naivete,
and thankfully that is now socially accepted.

People may have been young and naive, but
they were often sincere.

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Date: Wed, Feb 07, 2001 at 03:29:28 (GMT)
From: Pat Conlon
Email: None
To: hamzen
Subject: Now, Ham stop picking on my husband
Message:
I'm so glad you're still posting after saying that you were leaving. I've thought about saying ''I'm off'' too whenever someone gets under my skin and have decided not to bother to announce it in case, like you and Aussie Ji, I have to eat my words. I wonder when Sir Dave will be back?
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Date: Wed, Feb 07, 2001 at 03:27:28 (GMT)
From: Charles S
Email: None
To: hamzen
Subject: Yes, I would agree...
Message:
...that sincerity doesn't excuse naivete. In fact, youthful, enthusiastic sincerity combined with naivete made it easy to exploit the Western premies.
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Date: Wed, Feb 07, 2001 at 00:57:14 (GMT)
From: Turner
Email: None
To: Charles S
Subject: Ignorance vs Awareness
Message:
This is good - this airing of perspective. It really demonstrates the difference between ignorance and awareness. Let me share with you my insights.

The Aware quite rightly blame the position of the Ignorant on their inherent ignorance. After all, the Ignorant are ignorant by definition. But interestingly enough, the Ignorant also use the explanation of ignorance for the position espoused by the Aware. This is because the Ignorant are ignorant of the awareness of the Aware. And too, the Ignorant are ignorant of their own ignorance…otherwise they would be aware. On the other hand, the Aware, by virtue of their awareness are aware of the Ignorant’s ignorance.

Now…the Aware remain unaffected by the Ignorant’s ignorance, except for when they try to point it out to the Ignorant. Then the Aware are accused of ignorance. But this is in reality just the perception of the Ignorant caused by their lack of awareness, which they of course are ignorant of.

Hope this helps.

Turner

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Date: Thurs, Feb 08, 2001 at 16:08:29 (GMT)
From: Scott T.
Email: None
To: Turner
Subject: Ignorance vs Awareness
Message:
Hope this helps.

Helps who, the Jerry Lewis fan club?

--Scott

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Date: Wed, Feb 07, 2001 at 23:54:59 (GMT)
From: Michael Dettmers
Email: dettmers@gylanix.com
To: Turner
Subject: Awareness or Arrogance?
Message:
Turner,

Ignorance and awareness are terms that distinguish different degrees of knowing. To be aware is to “know that you know” something. Another form of knowing is to “know that you don’t know” something. For example, I know that I don’t know how to speak Russian. Ignorance, on the other hand, indicates that “I don’t know that I don’t know.” In this condition, referred to as cognitive blindness, I am not even aware that there is anything to know. A classic example of this condition was the common held belief that the earth was the center of the universe. In this condition, people didn’t know that they didn’t know that this was not so. This is the nature of belief systems. People don’t even recognize them as belief systems. They assume that what they believe is the “Truth.” When their truth is questioned by someone who stands outside of their belief system, they often become arrogant and think that the questioner is stupid or crazy.

Now cognitive blindness is a permanent condition for every human being. It is not a condition we can avoid. After all, we are at every moment surrounded by situations, information, and emerging possibilities about whose existence we are completely ignorant. People who are committed to becoming life-long learners are developing the skill to recognize when they may be encountering their cognitive blindness. There are several aspects to mastering this skill including practices for reading the world, listening, becoming aware of our moods and our reactions, and observing our questions. Our questions are particularly relevant because they always make sense to us even if we don’t know the answers to them. For example, if I believe that the earth is the center of the universe, it makes perfect sense for me to ask what the circumference of the sun around the earth is.

Most important, I have to let go of a belief in the “Truth” about anything. I distinguish “truth” from what is “true.” I can make assertions or statements of fact, which are either “true” or “false.” However, “Truth” in the sense I am using it is an assessment or an interpretation and, as such, it is not “true” or “false” but a judgment that is either “grounded” or “ungrounded.” Grounding offers a basis for my assessment but it does not make my assessment the “Truth.” As long as you continue to speak as though you and Maharaji possess the Truth, you sound arrogant not aware.

Michael

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Date: Thurs, Feb 08, 2001 at 20:35:05 (GMT)
From: Turner
Email: None
To: Michael Dettmers
Subject: Awareness or Arrogance?
Message:
As long as you continue to speak as though you and Maharaji possess the Truth, you sound arrogant not aware.

Well than call me arrogant Mike if that suits you.

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Date: Fri, Feb 09, 2001 at 01:27:43 (GMT)
From: hamzen
Email: None
To: Turner
Subject: You, arrogant, perish the thought
Message:
The person who won't accept md's comments about gm's drunken stupors because of fantasy and distortion?

You're like those people who deny the concentration canmps existed because they never saw them themselves, pretty damned sad really.

Arrogant,
don't be daft.

So Turner do you think it's possible to experience knowledge without gm, and do you think it's possible that followers of other gurus could experience similar states?

And what do you make of gm's lies that he never said any of that guru is greater than god stuff, it was all the mahatmas?

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Date: Thurs, Feb 08, 2001 at 16:03:34 (GMT)
From: Scott T.
Email: None
To: Michael Dettmers
Subject: Awareness or Arrogance?
Message:
Michael:

Excellent description of this process, without reference the 'formal' versions: Critical Theory, Mannheim, etc. You go right to the heart of the matter.

--Scott

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Date: Thurs, Feb 08, 2001 at 02:50:29 (GMT)
From: Deputy Dog
Email: None
To: Michael Dettmers
Subject: Awareness or Arrogance?
Message:
Michael,

Truth is a feeling, not the flavour of the month concept. Notice I didn't say 'the truth' but truth.

As Ram Dass said in Be Here Now, truth has an intuitive validity. You just know it's true. It's a feeling not a concept, a bit like an orgasm. There is no argument. This is what they talk about in the Bible as the truth that passes all understanding.

Someone wins a Nobel Peace prize for coming up with a concept about how things are, and someone else wins the same prize for proving that concept wrong. That's 'the truth' not truth. That's consensus reality.

When I meditate and get in touch with a feeling that just seems so right and so safe and so peaceful, if you try to argue with me and tell me it's not real or true, I just feel sorry for you. Is that arrogance?

(Please notice here that I have not mentioned M. IMO the four techniques of Knowledge are Knowledge.)

Deputy Dog

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Date: Thurs, Feb 08, 2001 at 04:19:55 (GMT)
From: Michael Dettmers
Email: dettmers@gylanix.com
To: Deputy Dog
Subject: Assessments vs Assertions
Message:
Hi again Dog,

I don’t question your’s or anybody else’s experience about anything. Your experience is your experience. If I choose to question anything, it will be your interpretation about your experience, not your experience itself.

Your interpretation or your explanation, even if you call it a feeling, is fundamentally an assessment you, the speaker, are making about it. Now, if you take responsibility for your assessments, that’s fine. However, most people don’t. What they do is speak their assessments as though they are assertions or statements of fact. In doing so, they position themselves as reporters about a reality that exists independent of their observations and interpretations about it.

Let’s look at this more closely. You begin your response to me with the statement “Truth is a feeling, not the flavour of the month concept.” You probably believe that your statement is an assertion or a statement of fact when it is actually an assessment. As I said in my earlier post, statements of fact are either “true” or “false” and when a person makes a statement of fact they are willing to provide evidence to back up their statement. If I say I own a grey car, my statement can be verified by an independent witness who can observe whether or not I own a grey car.

Your statement “truth is a feeling” is not an assertion because there is nothing to observe. The words “truth” and “feeling” exist only in language. Your statement is an assessment for which you can offer grounding. You can do so by announcing up front that you are making an assessment and offering grounding for it. First you would establish a context for your assessment so that the listener(s) can understand “for the sake of what” you are making the assessment in the first place. In other words, what future concern are you addressing by making the assessment. Next you would offer standards of performance against which you are making your assessment, standards that are generally accepted by the community you are addressing. Finally, you would offer assertions that supported your assessment.

Having said that, I did not detect any arrogance in what you wrote. In my opinion, what was missing was your ability to take full responsibility for your assessment. When you learn to do so, your personal power will be greatly enhanced. I hope this has been helpful.

Michael

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Date: Fri, Feb 09, 2001 at 03:39:31 (GMT)
From: Deputy Dog
Email: None
To: Michael and Jim
Subject: I don't believe it!
Message:
Michael and Jim,

I don’t believe you guys, looking for truth in a dictionary for God sakes. Looking for truth in a bunch of black squiggly lines. Still trapped at the verbal level! I mean words are important even though they account for only 15% of human communication.

Words are fun to play with and use to create moods and make a living, but Reality with a capital R, come on. It’s not in a dictionary, IMO it’s in the Book of Life.

Thinking that words are Truth is like going into a restaurant, asking for a menu, and then eating the menu. Truth is prior to verbalisation. Words are so limited.

More than 700 years ago Zen Master Mumon said,

Words do not convey actualities;
Letters do not embody the spirit of a human being.
He who attaches himself to words is lost;
He who abides with letters will remain in ignorance.

In other “words”, if one clings to verbal expressions and lacks (or ignores) the ability to grasp the essence that transcends them, he will forever miss the Truth with a capital T.

Don’t forget, two centuries ago the earth was flat, and if chose to disagree or say otherwise they would set you on fire. That’s agreement reality, reality with a small r.

The mind, that we put so much stock into, is simply a bunch of recordings of what used to be. They are yesterday’s paper, conditioning, stimulus-response machinery, live in your mind and you live in your past conditioning. Does the name Pavlov ring a bell?

In fact most of the really fantastic times I’ve had in my short life happened when “I-mind” wasn’t there, sex being one of them, sports another. So get on a roll and play with some soul.

The physical universe (which includes the mind) is based on agreement. Would reading about skydiving be the same as skydiving? Would reading a book about hashish be the same as having a few puffs? Of course it wouldn’t. “Holy Name” is the most real thing I know. The rest is just BS, i.e. belief system, just yadda, yadda, yadda!

For me, Truth with a capital T happens when my “drunken monkey” takes a nap, i.e., when I step out of the past.

Okay, so I’ve just become an arrogant preacher proving Michael right. I just couldn’t shut up. It’s just that when I am in the Spirit (yes THAT PLACE) I feel so much better and so much more alive. And I don’t need to explain or interpret, it would seem kind of chintzy if I did.

Let me leave you with some words from Chang Tzu.

A dog is not considered a good dog
because he is a good barker.
A man is not considered a good man
because he is a good talker.

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Date: Fri, Feb 09, 2001 at 12:55:04 (GMT)
From: Michael Dettmers
Email: dettmers@gylanix.com
To: Deputy Dog
Subject: Oh, but you do! You just don't see it.
Message:
Dog,

You said, It’s just that when I am in the Spirit (yes THAT PLACE) I feel so much better and so much more alive. And I don’t need to explain or interpret, it would seem kind of chintzy if I did.

That's fine, BUT you do choose to interpret it by saying such meaningless things like 'Truth is a feeling' and instead of owning it as your interpretation, you make it sound as though your Truth is an independent reality that exists in and of itself.

When people speak of Truth in this manner, there can only be one response to it and that is 'obedience' or 'surrender' either to the Truth itself or to the Truth giver. Religions have been built upon this false premise for years. Maharaji picked up on it, and you and many others have become blind spokespersons for it. So was I.

Part of the process of taking back my life was to examine how I came to think that way in the first place. What I offer is a glimpse of the process I have been through. Of course, I don't claim that what I say is the 'Truth' of the matter. It is, however, my interpretation and I can and have been grounding why I say what I say. If you find it helpful, fine. If not, ignore it.

Michael

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Date: Fri, Feb 09, 2001 at 09:21:00 (GMT)
From: Pat Conlon
Email: pdconlon@yahoo.com
To: Deputy Dog
Subject: Words
Message:
You said: ''...words are important even though they account for only 15% of human communication.''

They account for 100% here on the forum. They are all we have here in cyberspace. I can't pick up the other 85% of your communication without having to guess at it.

But I will take a guess at yours and, while I may not use the same words to try to convey what you have tried to convey, I hear you loud and clear.

I think you made a good stab at conveying something in words which is very difficult to convey in words. You are obviously not a professional writer and have dashed off your post with not too many rewrites.

It is not easy to write about the science (or art) of subjective consciousness. There is no respectable tradition in the west for it. As a result we are tempted to be lazy and resort to religious and ''spiritual'' cliches and quotes from ancient wise men.

Nothing wrong with that but I hope that you hear what I am saying and try to describe what you are attempting to communicate in your own words. Stick your neck out a bit. And always remember that, when you are communicating in an arena such as this which relies on words 100%, you have to rely on words one hundred percent.

Good luck. I wish you well, Mahatma Deputy Dawg (and that is said playfully not snidely.)

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Date: Fri, Feb 09, 2001 at 07:24:08 (GMT)
From: Scott T.
Email: None
To: Deputy Dog
Subject: You'd be better off if you did!
Message:
Depuhdy:

Still trapped at the verbal level! I mean words are important even though they account for only 15% of human communication.

The difference between Homo Erectus and Cro Magnon was primarily the fact that Cro Magnon had speech. If you looked into the eyes of Homo Erectus you'd see the yellow stare of an animal looking back at you. Don't know whether the 15% is accurate, but if it is then it's the most important 15%.

--Scott

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Date: Thurs, Feb 08, 2001 at 15:39:52 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Michael Dettmers
Subject: Hey, both you guys, knock that out!
Message:
Sheesh! Michael says:

'“Truth” in the sense I am using it is an assessment or an interpretation and, as such, it is not “true” or “false” but a judgment that is either “grounded” or “ungrounded.”

Dog says:

'Truth is a feeling.....'

What about plain ol' fashioned english? Oxford says:

'1) the quality or a state of being true or truthful; 2)[a] what is true, [b] what is accepted as true'

Then, for true:

'1) in accordance with fact or reality; 2) genuine, rightly or strictly so called ....etc.'

Now, come fellas, what's wrong with that? You don't need no 'intuitive validity', Dog. You don't need no special language about 'assessments' and 'grounding', Mike. It's simpler than that, isn't it?

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Date: Thurs, Feb 08, 2001 at 16:29:04 (GMT)
From: Scott T.
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Hey, both you guys, knock that out!
Message:
Jim:

Now, come fellas, what's wrong with that? You don't need no 'intuitive validity', Dog. You don't need no special language about 'assessments' and 'grounding', Mike. It's simpler than that, isn't it?

True. What could be simpler than to accept the untrammeled authority of the Oxford English Dictionary without further challenge? Now, what about 'quality,' 'state,' 'fact,' 'reality,' and don't forget 'in accordance.' In what sense is a quality in accordance with a fact? This should be fun.

--Scott

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Date: Thurs, Feb 08, 2001 at 16:11:54 (GMT)
From: Michael Dettmers
Email: dettmers@gylanix.com
To: Jim
Subject: Hold on there Jim
Message:
Jim,

Surely you can understand that there is a difference between claims some people make about the 'truth' and statements of fact which are either 'true' of 'false'. The latter is an assertion; the former is a judgment or an assessment. When people fail to make this distinction, they often speak about their 'truth' as if it were an observable fact, instead of their opinion. In doing so, they fail to take ownership of their opinions, but instead, speak as though they have nothing to do with the 'truth' they are reporting. In other words, they are claiming that their 'truth' is objective reality and not simply their interpretation. Think for a moment about the consequences of this lack of rigor in our thinking and speaking. We can kick this around some more at a later date if you’re still interested.

Michael

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Date: Fri, Feb 09, 2001 at 02:34:27 (GMT)
From: bill
Email: None
To: Michael Dettmers
Subject: Hmmm, good points..nt
Message:
sfgn
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Date: Thurs, Feb 08, 2001 at 17:33:20 (GMT)
From: Francesca
Email: None
To: Michael Dettmers
Subject: Brilliant point, the realm of 'the Master'
Message:
... the point at which our logic gets squishy. Nothing is squishier than turning the subjective into objective. To a mild degree we all fall into it, to our detriment. I believe you have found 'the realm of the Master.' Or at least one of the things he and every religious and non religious cult leader has used to play with our minds. And how we cause misunderstandings with each other by turning our own strongly held subjective assessments into universal truths.

Jim's and Scott's comments and your reply helped me understand where you were telling Dog to go. There is nothing wrong with the assessment -- he just has to own it and acknowledge that it came from him.

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Date: Thurs, Feb 08, 2001 at 16:25:32 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Michael Dettmers
Subject: Did you just threaten to kick me?
Message:
Hi Mike,

I've got to run back to court where the jury's still deliberating this 'internet abduction' case I'm defending. But yeah, I'll kick this around with you later. Watch the threats though, huh? :)

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Date: Wed, Feb 07, 2001 at 03:21:01 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Turner
Subject: Good post, Turner (nt)
Message:
dfddddd
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Date: Wed, Feb 07, 2001 at 02:53:11 (GMT)
From: hamzen
Email: None
To: Turner
Subject: Is that a humour by-pass named Turner I see
Message:
before me,
if that's the best you can do I'd get back under the sheet if I were you.

Truly pathetic

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Date: Wed, Feb 07, 2001 at 05:12:20 (GMT)
From: Nigel
Email: fitzroy@liverpool.ac.uk
To: hamzen
Subject: Turner's a laugh a minute
Message:
- no make that 5.l72 laughs a minute under present observing conditions - assuming he/she's taken from a representative sample group and my stopwatch isn't malfunctioning.

Hi Ham. How goeth it?

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Date: Wed, Feb 07, 2001 at 02:12:53 (GMT)
From: Pauline PWK
Email: None
To: Turner
Subject: Ignorance vs Awareness
Message:
Turner,

First, note my new, up-to-date name. I think I will go by both Pauline Premie and Pauline PWK. I think they are interchangeable.

But you post is just so beautiful. You should post it under the 'Expressions' section of Enjoyinglife.org.

And just so insightful, and full of love. I think this post is right up there with that wonderful analysis of why Maharaji is a better role model than Jesus Christ. As I said, when I wanted to have sex with everyone in my neighborhood bar, I preferred Maharaji as a role model to that deadbeat Jesus.

Mainly, I am aware that without Maharaji, I am the ignorant bacteria that forms in the intestines of rates that eat sewage.

Pauline

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Date: Wed, Feb 07, 2001 at 02:27:03 (GMT)
From: Thelma the Church Lady
Email: None
To: Pauline PWK
Subject: Ignorance is Bliss
Message:
Pauline you know that you have cured me of my flirtation with manmutness with your undying devotion. But I wish you would stick to Pauline Premie because you and I will bring back the good old days of Locust Feet kissing and gopi surrender to our living God.

And I just wish he would go back to calling himself God. It was so much simpler for gopis like us. It's so confusing now when he is God but isn't and he was God but is no longer and he never was God and he never said he was. What is a devout church lady supposed to do?

It just gets my tits in a tangle and I've got all the propagation packages mixed up and the white table-cloths have got tear stains on them.

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Date: Wed, Feb 07, 2001 at 02:07:14 (GMT)
From: Charles S
Email: None
To: Turner
Subject: Huh? You sound like a hamster stuck on the...
Message:
Hamster's hamster-wheel. What you said has f**ck-all to do with anything I said.
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Date: Wed, Feb 07, 2001 at 01:56:33 (GMT)
From: Pat Conlon
Email: None
To: Turner
Subject: Turner, this is the biggest bunch of sophistry
Message:
I have had to stomach today. You are clutching at straws to rationalize to yourself why someone with your obviously questioning mind would still be involved in some sort retro-feusdalistic Master/servant relationship.

Aren't you just the teeniest bit ashamed of your primitive attachment? I guess this is the only place that you can defend your Master. Even the current PWKs are embarassed by satsang and, if you live in a free, democratic scoiety as I do, then you are probably also ashamed to speak of your subservience to your Master to any other sane human being.

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Date: Wed, Feb 07, 2001 at 17:31:09 (GMT)
From: Turner
Email: None
To: Pat Conlon
Subject: You missed it Pat.
Message:
This is the biggest bunch of sophistry I have had to stomach today. You are clutching at straws to rationalize to yourself why someone with your obviously questioning mind would still be involved in some sort retro-feusdalistic Master/servant relationship.

I don’t believe I claimed being either ignorant or aware so I’m not sure how I can be accused of rationalizing anything. But now that you bring it up, rationalizing is something we can all be justifiably accused of to justify decisions we’ve made in life. But I have observed an interesting thing when discussing universal human foibles: the probability is high that it’s the one doing the accusing who is least likely to see the same fault in their own character. Could this apply to you Pat? Could it be that you are rationalizing your wasted years as “some sort retro-feusdalistic Master/servant relationship”?

Aren't you just the teeniest bit ashamed of your primitive attachment? I guess this is the only place that you can defend your Master. Even the current PWKs are embarassed by satsang and, if you live in a free, democratic scoiety as I do, then you are probably also ashamed to speak of your subservience to your Master to any other sane human being.

No, unlike you I am proud of my affiliation with Maharaji. I have no problem discussing my relationship to Maharaji because I understand that it is not “some sort retro-feusdalistic Master/servant relationship”, but a natural and unavoidable set of responses to someone sincerely seeking the highest Truth being shown that Truth by someone sincerely wanting to help them. And the PWKs I know enjoy listening to satsang as much as they ever have.

By the way Pat, if you didn’t enjoy my previous post I suspect you missed it.

Turner

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Date: Thurs, Feb 08, 2001 at 14:47:58 (GMT)
From: JohnT
Email: None
To: Turner
Subject: You lost it Turner.
Message:
Turner: my relationship to Maharaji ... is ... a natural and unavoidable set of responses to someone sincerely seeking the highest Truth being shown that Truth by someone sincerely wanting to help them.

So let's think, Turner (remember independant cognition. Nah? well, hang around dude, it'll come back to you).

Firstly, you are not sincere, except in the sense of sincerely deluded. If you were, you would see that ex-premie org is a more responsible and ethical organisation than Rawat's Evan Vital businesses. Here, the techniques are made freely available to all that enquire, and plenty of sympathetic and experienced advice is on hand. You, however, were turned into a begging cur before being granted access to this public knowledge. And it still shows, believe me Bud, it shows (yeuchhh!).

Secondly, Rawat has, in about 30 years, got through around $750,000,000 (of other people's money) and ended up with a congregation of under 2000 (and falling!) in North America. Along the way, however, he has also enriched himself beyond even his wildest dreams of avarice and got to trick lots of premie babes into getting fucked by him.

Not bad for some guy who sincerely wanting to help, eh?

You are one filthy idiot, Turner. You profoundly disgust me with your immoral solipsist stupidity. And I'm being nice, here, you understand. I'm being nice because I understand you are deluded.

And you do too. What you haven't yet understood is just what a despicable and morally corrupt little person you have become, in the image of your Master. What good is in your mindless apologia for THAT nasty little low life shit that you are pleased to consider your Master?

Just vain boastings that you are sincere and better than others.

J'ACCUSE

JohnT
- never a premie

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Date: Thurs, Feb 08, 2001 at 08:04:30 (GMT)
From: Inside
Email: None
To: Turner
Subject: Please tell me one thing?
Message:
Turner you wrote:-

'But I have observed an interesting thing when discussing universal human foibles: the probability is high that it’s the one doing the accusing who is least likely to see the same fault in their own character.'

Is this not the same as:-

When some one proclaims to the world that they believe in universal peace and privately have a ridiculously short temper and rule by fear?

When someone says openly I believe in human dignity and privately violate those close to them?

When someone shouts loudly to the world “There is this peace inside” and privately has to send themselves to sleep each night in a drunken stupor ?

Is this not the same?

Insideout

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Date: Thurs, Feb 08, 2001 at 20:29:15 (GMT)
From: Turner
Email: None
To: Inside
Subject: Please tell me one thing?
Message:
Sorry In/out, it’s not the same as anything I stated. You appear to be just taking the opportunity to play back some tired ex-premie rhetoric.

You know, when I see you guys pumping out this stuff it makes me chuckle. Did you guys ever understand anything about what Maharaji was doing? The obvious answer to that is no. You seem to exemplify this misunderstanding. One point of misunderstanding is: Is the primary role of the master one of a leader, or of a teacher? And restrain yourself for a moment from spouting some platitude that a true leader/teacher should be both. This is not necessarily the case. He has stated his role as a teacher many times, and he explicitly said he was not a leader. Of course the ex-premies have tried to make hay out of this…but that is to be expected from a group of people who only care to see a person in a negative light.

The other misunderstanding is: If he is a teacher, what exactly is he teaching? That is, what lessons could he be possibly teaching by getting angry?

Have you heard him use the example of the potter…you know, the guy who uses one hand to beat and mold the outside of the pot and the other supporting the inside? I know that’s just a bit too airy-fairy for some of you, so let’s look at a real world example. Take the military …and please don’t think for a second I am claiming Knowledge is militaristic. It’s just an example.

The military takes in new recruits and put them through an intensive training regimen called boot camp. There, human rights and the semblance of dignity appear to be almost non-existent. Now, on the other side there are the lessons learned by the military through centuries of experience. That experience has taught them what is important for the recruit to learn. Why? So he can survive in battle. In this respect they have the new recruit’s best interests at heart. And they don’t have time to pussy-foot around with touchy-feely methodologies…they get down to business. Their perspective is, “if these men and women are going to serve their country by putting themselves in harm’s way, we have the responsibility to teach them the skills they will need to optimize their chances for survival”. At any time do any recruits doubt their drill sergeant’s intentions being in their best interests? You bet. Do some recruits not make it through because they don’t see a need to be treated that way. You bet.

Yes, I have seen Maharaji when he gets angry, and I have been on the receiving end of some of it. But I never felt abused or that my dignity was compromised…but then, I have a pretty strong sense of self. And I have never not felt the other hand, like the potter, supporting me so that I would not break as I was being taught lessons that to this day I am grateful for having learned. Those lessons are timeless and will be with me when I take my last breath…which by the way helps answer the question of what he is teaching.

On the last of your points, do you have any first hand knowledge that he “privately has to send [himself] to sleep each night in a drunken stupor”? Do you have anybody who can back you up on such an exaggerated claim?

Turner

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Date: Thurs, Feb 08, 2001 at 23:15:35 (GMT)
From: Jerry Lewis
Email: None
To: Turner
Subject: Please tell me. One thing?
Message:
Hello you... man. Oh, your thing is... sorry... broken. What, huh? I could. Listen, you could fix that if you... just... see, like this. Just a little, if you don't mind. Don't now, don't move or you'll... you could reweave, and just a little glue here, I think. Maybe you could get it...? Just a little... take it easy... mister man. Don't... relax. Oh! Yes, good idea. Do that then. OK. Good. Glad you... no don't! OK, good. What you're thinking... good. Maybe...

--Dr. Jerry Lewis

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Date: Thurs, Feb 08, 2001 at 22:26:17 (GMT)
From: Jethro
Email: None
To: Turner
Subject: Please tell me one thing?
Message:
'... do you have any first hand knowledge that he “privately has
to send [himself] to sleep each night in a drunken stupor”? Do you have anybody who can back you up on such an exaggerated claim?'

I don't believe that the answer to that would make any difference to you.

What difference will it make to you if the answer is yes?

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Date: Thurs, Feb 08, 2001 at 23:10:46 (GMT)
From: Turner
Email: None
To: Jethro
Subject: Please tell me one thing?
Message:
Well one thing, I could be rest assured I was talking to someone with integrity instead of someone who is embellishing the facts with their fantasies.
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Date: Fri, Feb 09, 2001 at 08:58:57 (GMT)
From: Insideout
Email: None
To: Turner
Subject: Come on Turner you can do better than that!(nt)
Message:
sdf
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Date: Fri, Feb 09, 2001 at 00:31:24 (GMT)
From: Susan
Email: None
To: Turner
Subject: I have heard this from two seperate insiders
Message:
that he got so drunk he was carried to bed.

Ah....the service...the trust...the bliss....the master was really testing ol ____________ when he gave him the opportunity to tuck him in at night.

Turner, of COURSE it wouldn't make any difference to you. You have your experience, and it isn't your role to question your master. In fact Turner, NOTHING would make any difference to you, because your experience is more important than the experiences of others, who are not real, and our experiences are clouded with hatred and ignorance. You, on the other hand, have your experience, and your master, and that is all that matters.

I do not think you would turn if you saw Rawat bayonetting babies, I mean, you have your experience and all. In fact you would probably feel fortunate to be tested in that way. And what after all, would the fact that he bayonetted babies have to do with whether he was a Master Teacher of Knowledge anyway, a different domain altogether.

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Date: Fri, Feb 09, 2001 at 01:14:57 (GMT)
From: Jethro
Email: None
To: Susan
Subject: I have heard this from two seperate insiders
Message:
Hi Susan,
How are you?

Sadly, your post reflects the premi mindset perefectly.

Prempal has stolen their humanness.

Take care

Jethro

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Date: Thurs, Feb 08, 2001 at 08:08:29 (GMT)
From: Insideout
Email: None
To: Inside
Subject: Above message is to Turner from Insideout(nt)
Message:
sd
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Date: Thurs, Feb 08, 2001 at 02:17:05 (GMT)
From: Patrick Conlon
Email: pdconlon@yahoo.com
To: Turner
Subject: To Turner
Message:
Turner, I'm not into picking fights unless picked on first and you have so far not picked a fight with me. So I'll answer your question politely.

You asked: ''Could it be that you are rationalizing your wasted years as “some sort retro-feudalistic Master/servant relationship”?

I am not free of the tendency to rationalize stuff to myself. Of course I rationalize many things to myself but usually, when my rationalizations later prove fallacious, I'll admit I made a mistake and adapt. I don't regard my years of regarding Mr Rawat as a teacher as wasted. I learned as much as I could and then I moved on.

I must confess to having a few unfair digs at you such as suggesting that you are not proud to speak about Mr Rawat. I also used words (such as ''primitive'' and ''retro-feudalistic'') to embarass you and to make myself out to be intellectually superior. Those were cheap shots and I hope you will forgive me.

I must also confess that I have not read all of your posts but have merely become aware that you are a premie who posts here and gets routinely insulted. I guess I just joined in with the wolf pack without giving you a fair hearing.

You also said: ''And the PWKs I know enjoy listening to satsang as much as they ever have.''

Do you mean that they enjoy giving and listening to each others' satsang or that they enjoy Mr Rawat's satsang only?

I do wonder about your presence here. I would like to know what your motivation is for posting here. Would you be so kind to explain that to me? Thanks.

I wish you good health and prosperity.

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Date: Wed, Feb 07, 2001 at 01:55:25 (GMT)
From: larkin
Email: larkin@redcrow.demon.co.uk
To: turner
Subject: turner's tune..
Message:
- with apologies to the very late Jim Reeves (but who probably deserved it, after doing Distant Drums at the time of Vietnam..)

I love you because you understand, Lord
Every little thing I try to do
You're always there to lend a nasty threat, Lord
I love you most most of all because you're YOU!

I love you because the future's bright, Lord
Even though your promises don't come true
I love you although your words are trite, Lord
I love you most most of all because you're YOU!

No matter what the world may say about me..
(about me)
You're always there to tighten up the screw..
(up the screw)
I love you for a hundred thousand sunbeams
I love you most because you're Satguru..

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Date: Wed, Feb 07, 2001 at 00:08:23 (GMT)
From: Francesca
Email: None
To: Charles S
Subject: Well you've just answered your own rhetorical
Message:
... question about what place there is for you on the Forum.

I believe this is a place for folks that have been through the experience, no matter during which pogrom (lite or heavy), to share information. And the fact that the board is here will give information to others on the fence or just wanting to reconnect to folks they knew or folks who shared a common experience.

We find that our experience of Knowledge was not a common experience and did not emanate from His Truly -- although that was part of the juju. The common experience, it turns out, is that we were all suckered into believing M was something he wasn't. Even M was suckered. They stuck him up on a throne at 8 years old and no one has broken the truth to him in a way that he will accept or assimilate (now THAT'S what I would call Knowledge!) that it's all a lie. We were all at least suckered enough to dedicate our lives in ashrams, or at least accept our own or others' devotion or reverence for him as a reasonable thing, and/or to send checks.

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Date: Tues, Feb 06, 2001 at 21:21:25 (GMT)
From: Bin Liner
Email: None
To: Charles S
Subject: Lot's of food for thought there , thanks. nt
Message:
nt
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Date: Tues, Feb 06, 2001 at 19:38:58 (GMT)
From: Michael Read
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: enlightenment wars
Message:
Ladies and gentlemen, we interrupt our regular scheduled broadcast with these late breaking developments from the frontlines of the Enlightenment Wars. This is your anchor-being, Whadya Gnolwes, with this special report.

First: let's hear from our special correspondent, B.D.A. Sikar, who is at a hidden camp deep in the middle of nowhere. B.D.A., what is the latest from your perspective.

Whadya, I'm here in the ultra secret hideaway of the Philosophic Panthers. They have been and are continuing to develop new and even more powerful weapons in thier campaign to dominate these wars. Thier latest effort culminates is what can only be a most devastating (at least in thier view) terror device. It is the lastest in new and improved Logic Grenades. Back to you, Whadya.

Thanks B.D.A. The Panthers haven't made much headway in the last quarter of a century or more. Logic grenades aren't exactly new technology. Do you see these latest efforts to be any real improvement.

Yes, Whadya, that is the key question here amongst the Panthers as well. To give you a perspective on that I have here with me one of the foremost developers of the LG mark V, Carl J. Idmanns. Carl, what can you tell us about your newest weapon and how is is it an improvement over your older versions.

Well, B., may I call you B.? Certainly. Well, B., as you know the old LG mark III just wasn't getting the job done. It was noisy, you could see it coming and quite frankly, it had lost it's appeal. The mark V on the other hand is quite dazzling. It can instantly paralyze the mind and bring it into line with accepted standards. That has been our goal all along. Yes, we indeed do see the Panthers moving into the forefront with this new technology.

There you have it, Whadya. More on this story as it develops. Reporting live from the middle of nowhere, I'm B.D.A. Sikar signing out.

Thanks B.D.A. Now, on to other fronts. We have it from reliable sources that the Suffering Squadron has joined forces with dissenting elements of the Karma Corps. They are attempting to purchase a battery of concept cannon to be used in thier campaign against the Fortress of Doing.

The Righteousness Brigade is still slugging it out with the Engineers of Experience. The collateral damage has been minimal over the past month or two. However, millions are still without serenity.

The Meditation Marauders have been taking causalities in ever increasing numbers. Some say this is due largely to the efforts of one man, Kapitan Kundal. Some say that there is no such person while others attest to first hand encounters that have left them stunned.

And the Free Will Destineers seem to have developed immunity to the effects of landed mindfields. At last report no one has been able verify this report. The FWD's motto 'Let fate be your guide on what to decide' was last seen as a graffiti on the walls of the Fortress of Doing.

For a wrapup we turn to our resident analyst and veteran war correspondant, Imma Nutting. Imma, what is your assesment of the current situation?

Whadya, we can see from here that the lofty Tower of Enlightement is still standing like a bright beacon on the Horizon of Reality. So far no one has made it there and come back alive. That is to say we cannot recognize any successful attempts to bring the Tower down to the common man at this time.

Thank you Imma. You may want to get that twitch looked at.

Well folks, that's all for now. For more developments in this ancient and timeless struggle - stay tuned.

Whadya Gnolwes, signing off.

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Date: Tues, Feb 06, 2001 at 18:30:24 (GMT)
From: Pauline Premie
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: Maharaji's message has never changed
Message:
First, in response to Roger Drek, I wanted to make it clear, that yes, I was, and I am still, a 'real looker,' so thank you very much. I guess somebody remembers me from my days in the ashram, I mean from my days in the shelter protecting me from death and destruction caused by the dangerous drug culture, which existed from 1971, but ended in 1983, when, by the grace of the world's most selfless pilot, by the grace he who does not even own the $40 million Gulfstream IV jet he flies, Maharaji closed them down because they were no longer necessary to protect us.

I was going through some old Divine Times the other day, just to find more proof that Maharaji has not changed his message one iota from when he arrived here in 1971, except to change some terms and eliminate some concepts. For example, printed in the April, 1980 edition of the Divine Times, a publication of Elan Vital, is an except of a speech the Speaker who never claimed to be God, gave in Hialeah, Florida, at DECA, where hundreds of devotees, I mean students, of Maharaji were participating in a synchronized fashion to convert a Boeing 707 jetliner for Maharaji's use, but which he did NOT own. It was owned by a separate corporation, even the gold toilet. Anyhow, we were all there, living on tofu and orange juice, and without any sleep or medical care (it was SO blissful) just so we could do service, I mean participation for Maharaji.

Anyhow, by the grace of Maharaji, who is an ordinary person and never claimed to be god, I was there on Christmas Day, 1979, and heard him say the following, as reprinted in the Elan Vital publication:

But I mean the devotee's prayer to Guru Maharaj Ji always is, 'Oh Guru Maharaj Ji, you are all-powerful, you are all merciful. Save me. Give me that help that I need in my life.

Now, isn't that just the most amazing thing? But see, you have to have that understanding in order to see what Maharaji (who, by his supreme understanding, eliminated the 'Guru' in his name a mere 15 or so years after her arrived in the West (in no time, really)), is saying.

Nothing in that statement would indicate to anyone who had synchronized understanding that Maharaji was claiming to be God or a Savior, or a Supreme Being, and nothing even suggests that his followers should pray to him. It's just confused ex-premies who would ever say such nonsense, and now that Maharaji has eliminated the words 'guru' and 'devotee,' all those cultural misunderstandings, which Western followers may have gotten because they are so deficient and stupid, have been eliminated.

Also, I wanted to say that any connection between me and anyone else who posts on this forum is completely coincidental, untrue, false, and anyone who thinks I am connected in any way to any miserable ex-premie, lacks that understanding, and certainly is not having the experience of that love.

I am so blissed out that there is an event in Amaroo in a few months, and I may have to be very creative, like sell an organ or something, to come up with the entrance charge, I mean donation. But now that I spent $30 for a Smartcard, I do not have to be interviewed, frisked, or strip searched before entering the event.

You ex-premies do not know what you are missing!

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Date: Tues, Feb 06, 2001 at 22:36:18 (GMT)
From: Marianne
Email: None
To: Pauline Premie
Subject: Smart cards and Heaven
Message:
Pauline, will I need a smart card to get into heaven?

Prostations at the Lotus Feet of Shri Guru Maharaj,
Marianne, Satanic Priestess Extraordinaire (so says Elan Vital, below)

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Date: Tues, Feb 06, 2001 at 22:44:24 (GMT)
From: Elan Vital
Email: None
To: Marianne
Subject: Smartcards
Message:
Dear Marianne,

Given that Elan Vital believes you are a satanic ritualist who travels the worlds conducting disgusting Latvian Nights, Elan Vital is probably breaking several of its policies in even addressing you. Nevertheless, due to that fact that we are experiencing THAT LOVE, we will answer your question.

'Smartcards (TM)' are a trademarked property of Elan Vital and even those who receive 'Smartcards' (TM) do not own them and must return them to Elan Vital upon request. Hence, the likelihood of someone like you getting her filthy hands on them is nil.

Elan Vital also wants to point out that 'Smartcards' (TM) are not a requirement to attend Elan Vital events at which Maharaji has been invited to be the Speaker, but without a Smartcard (TM), we cannot guarantee that you will not be strip searched, such strip search to be conducted by the entire Synchronized Security Team, and including an invasive search of all body cavities with discarded barrogans from the 70s. We needed to use those things for something, you know.

We at Elan Vital hope this answers your question, you horrible, confused, wicked, subhuman.

Yours in synchronicity,

ELAN VITAL: NOT HARBORING CHILD MOLESTORS SINCE 1999!

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Date: Tues, Feb 06, 2001 at 08:49:22 (GMT)
From: Mark
Email: mark@atlas.co.uk
To: Everyone
Subject: ex -premies are in a trap
Message:
Dear all,

I was a premie briefly in the late seventies. But changes happened in my life and I drifted away never to return.

I subsequently saw Maharaji a couple of times in the UK at the instigation of a good friend who happened to be a committed premie but I found no attraction or pull whatsoever.

In the context of this forum, I don't consider myself an ex-premie, rather a person who had an experience in his life, assimilated it, learned from it and then moved on.

I was surprised to find this site and to find that people who leave Maharaji nowadays feel so bad. Lets face it as a cult DLM or whatever its called now is not very effective in that you are free to leave at any time, you are free to not attend video events, you are free to not contribute financially (I think as that was the case long, I certainly never gave a penny to DLM). Its not grabbing you and trying to dominate you in the way that many really insidious cults do.

Maharaji sells a product.

Anyone who sells a product puts maximum spin on it and purports it to be the best thing since sliced bread, if he did not do that, it would not sell. Coca Cola does not sell water, sugar, caffiene, coloring and bubbles, it sells a lifestyle so does M. Its up to each of us to decide whether or not we want to buy in and to decide what the product is worth to us. Of course M can't live up to his claims, he never could, he is only human just like Bill Clinton and Jessie Jackson and the rest of us.

Reading the postings, I see a real obsession with him. As far as I can see, obsessing over him is in some ways no different to following him. He is still claiming your time, energy and minds. I really think that the best thing to do is to try to draw positive lessons from the experience, clearly, we all wiser from it, lets use that wisdom, to not let ourselves be drawn in to some other wheeze in the future. Most importantly, let go (as he used to say) of all the heavy emotive stuff and just move on to the next phase of our lives. Indifference to M is all we really need feel.

Best regards,

Mark.

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Date: Wed, Feb 07, 2001 at 23:55:43 (GMT)
From: G
Email: None
To: Mark
Subject: mixed reaction
Message:
Mark,

I have mixed feelings about what you wrote. While developing a certain indifference towards Rawat is a good idea, it's not that easy for some. Some of us were into the cult for many years and/or in the ashram for years, so there's more to get over. Getting over it doesn't happen by magic or just by the passage of time.

As to 'free to leave', 'free to not attend', 'free to not contribute financially', well, people are also free not to give their money to conmen, but many do. Conmen are not armed robbers, they take you money by gaining your confidence and tricking you into 'giving' them your money.

I'd rather be held up by an armed robber.

'just move on'? No, not 'just move on'. It's more complicated than that. Many of us need to reevaluate what happened and see how he affected us. Moving on is a process, not a non-event, not just something you decide to do one day.

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Date: Wed, Feb 07, 2001 at 09:47:18 (GMT)
From: Aussi Ji
Email: None
To: Mark
Subject: ex -premies are in a trap
Message:
G,day mark,
I have just read most of the posts below and thought I would put in my two bob's worth.I was a premie for 26 years and omly discovered this site last April.At first sight I thought it was just a bunch of freaked out premies who had never really experienced knowledge and were just bellyaching about their own shortcomings.I asked them why they still hung around and why the hell they didn't just leave and get the hell on with their lives.I just could'nt understand why they kept on rehashing stuff that happened almost 30 years ago.So I gave the site a wide berth until the end of last year and then I came back for another look( after being back into being a premie)I then started to see the light or darkness,depending on your slant.I could see that a lot of the people on here are doing a lot of good.After all I think if it had'nt been for this site I would'nt have made it out myself.I have a lot to be grateful for to the people here.So I hang around and hope that I can help someone also break free.I think for a lot on here it is kind of a service for us.
Anyway welcome,I hope you enjoy your stay however long or short it may be.

Cheers Aussi Ji(flat out like a lizard drinkin')

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Date: Wed, Feb 07, 2001 at 04:30:01 (GMT)
From: Bazza
Email: None
To: Mark
Subject: Couple of things puzzle me
Message:
G'day Mark, nice to see another new face.

I've become a bit of a sceptic in my old age, so don't take this personally, but a couple of things you wrote in your posts here clanged a bit funny.

According to you, you were involved briefly in the late 70's then got out. I'm guessing 1979, 1980? Would that be right? Hence your comment I have no experience of whats happened in the last 20 years, yeah?

Yet much of what you write has a distinctly 'modern' flavour to it.

For instance, you start off referring to 'Maharaji', whereas back then we knew him as 'Maharaj Ji',(Guru optional). Half way through your first post, you drop this down to the simpler 'M', an abbreviation not used back then but admittedly used by regulars here.

Next thing caught my eye - you refer to the voluntary aspect of DLM or whatever its called and say you are free to not attend video events.

Mate, 'Video events' are very much a thing of the nineties - in fact the word 'event' did not replace 'festival' or 'program' until the late 80's/early 90's.

How about this one -
M was bloody good at what he did - ie. gathering up huge numbers of people and convincing them to buy into his scenario, often for decades.
. Well Mark, if you got out in the late seventies, and don't know what happened since then, you would have only seen people 'buying into his scenario' for 7 or 8 years at the most, not 'decades'

Also, overall you make a lot of comments about our (ie forum exes) situation while including yourself by use of the word 'we'.

For example:
At what point though do we blame ourselves for being gullible or stupid or weak or naive or whatever and accept that we are in this strange situation today through our own actions

we all want to ultimately put this chapter of our lives to bed

Lastly,
I realise that I am now in a hole with this discussion ..............because I am trying to take my own advice and move on. Surely after 20 years of zero involvement, not knowing DLM changed to Elan Vital etc, you have already moved on?

The crux of my post Mark, is that reading all your posts gives me the distinct impression that you are NOT someone who had a brief encounter 20 years ago, with no subsequent cult exposure other than your 'recent' discovery of this forum. I'd even stick my neck out (not for the first time) and wonder out loud that maybe you were/are involved a lot more than you let on, up to present day. Am I right?

Perhaps one more quote from you will wrap it up:

I feel that we should be honest with ouselves (but not neccessarily with other forum members)

cheers mate.....

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Date: Wed, Feb 07, 2001 at 08:18:45 (GMT)
From: Pat Conlon
Email: None
To: Bazza
Subject: Couple of things puzzle me - emailed you NT
Message:
t
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Date: Wed, Feb 07, 2001 at 06:49:47 (GMT)
From: Mark
Email: None
To: Bazza
Subject: good try
Message:
Dear Bazza,

I refer you to the second paragraph of my original posting - I quote 'I subsequently saw Maharaji a couple of times in the UK at the instigation of a good friend who happened to be a committed premie but I found no attraction or pull whatsoever.'

My good friend tended to want to bring me up to speed so to speak. My nameless friend also ran video events and has been involved for decades.

Actually if you use Google, which I did and try both spellings of M's name, you get a better result with the modern version. I thought that picking up that you used 'M' and not his full name would show that I at least read the site before commenting. Actually, on my first message, I started off using his full name, the modern version that is then switched to 'M' once I remembered that that was how he is being addressed here.

Saying 'you' exposed me to being accused of being high handed and superior, so I swopped to 'we' in order to show some solidarity with my fellow travellers. Clearly, I can't win even on a switch from second to first person communications on this forum.

I have tried to respond in detail as Nigel has now accused me of not doing so but really, is this the level at which things operate on this forum, if so, its really not for me and I will probably take Nigels advice and 'fuck off'. He does have a way with words does Nigel.

I realise now that your accusation is correct. I am not an ex premie as this forum shows that being an ex premie carries a whole lot of fresh baggage with it. For the last 23 years, I have thought of myself as a lapsed premie because it all just disappeared out of my life and that is what I shall remain and where I shall now return for the next 23 years.

Over and out.

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Date: Wed, Feb 07, 2001 at 17:27:21 (GMT)
From: Scott T.
Email: None
To: Mark
Subject: good try
Message:
I realise now that your accusation is correct. I am not an ex premie as this forum shows that being an ex premie carries a whole lot of fresh baggage with it. For the last 23 years, I have thought of myself as a lapsed premie because it all just disappeared out of my life and that is what I shall remain and where I shall now return for the next 23 years.

So, your version of 'well balanced' is a simple matter of not making decisions and not doing anything. I can see why you don't want to stick around.

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Date: Wed, Feb 07, 2001 at 01:15:07 (GMT)
From: Francesca
Email: None
To: Mark
Subject: I don't think that folks' anger ....
Message:
proves your point that they are in a 'trap' and are 'obsessed.'

Anyone, especially of the male persuasion, is going to rankle a bit at the idea that someone basically walks into a room where everyone is talking and says, 'you poor people, you really should run along now and get a life, just like I have.'

My thoughts were similar to yours and I ignored the forum, although I knew about it for a year or so. Different strokes for different folks. If you are processing without the forum, but yet you say you are no better than we are, then you obviously are extricating yourself from the same trap. You're just not posting on the forum while you're doing it. That doesn't invalidate what people are doing here just because it doesn't suit your style.

The other purpose for the forum is that some of (and you notice I said 'some of') the discussion is helpful to those shaking themselves loose from the cult. Another purpose is that ex-premies who became estranged from the whole experience lost contact with each other. They are meeting again on the forum.

Happy processing.

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Date: Wed, Feb 07, 2001 at 03:01:54 (GMT)
From: Mark
Email: None
To: Francesca
Subject: people using this forum
Message:
Thank you for your reasonable comments. I completely accept your points. I can see that people use this forum for different reasons to those I assumed. I can see that its a good thing to have and that it helps people to cope with their feelings.

I only recently found this forum so I guess I am a little taken aback that there are so many people who have had a similar experience to mine. Lets face it, M was bloody good at what he did - ie. gathering up huge numbers of people and convincing them to buy into his scenario, often for decades.

At what point though do we blame ourselves for being gullible or stupid or weak or naive or whatever and accept that we are in this strange situation today through our own actions.

In this forum I feel that much of the discussion is targeted against M. His behavior, his greed etc etc. Thats fine and well deserved but surely we all want to ultimately put this chapter of our lives to bed. To do that, in my view, we also have to see our own failings, (regarding how we got hooked into the whole business), then learn from the experience and then move on.

I realise that I am now in a hole with this discussion that I can't climb out of because Nigel has accused me of being a hit and run merchant because I am trying to take my own advice and move on yet you have accused me of being being caught in my own trap because I am responding to and using the forum. Either way I look hypocritical. Such is life.

Regards,

Mark.

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Date: Wed, Feb 07, 2001 at 05:54:07 (GMT)
From: Francesca
Email: None
To: Mark
Subject: No, not at all, you're just new here!
Message:
You will find that folks blame themselves mightily as well. There are just a lot of posts to read and you may not have found those threads. It takes two to tango, for sure.

Some of us do wish we could stop posting here but the group therapy and company is compelling, coupled with the fact that we are playing siren on the rocks for those drunken sailors who want to come home.

Cheers and you are always welcome.

Peace, F

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Date: Wed, Feb 07, 2001 at 03:36:45 (GMT)
From: Pat Conlon
Email: None
To: Mark
Subject: Hi Mark, nice post, thanks
Message:
Not all of us slag off Pope Rawat (well not all the time) and most of us have examined or are examining our involvement with him (see thread above re ''abuser tactics.'')

As someone who made and arrogant entry to the forum let me offer some advice: tell us more about yourself before getting too analytical about us. Once we like and respect you, we'll hear your theoretical input with more sympathy.

Anyway, welcome. I am impressed with your calm voice and polite demeanor.

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Date: Wed, Feb 07, 2001 at 00:23:40 (GMT)
From: Nigel
Email: fitzroy@liverpool.ac.uk
To: Mark
Subject: It's a matter of civil courtesy, Mark...
Message:
For an apparently disinterested outsider, you have nonetheless managed 500 words expressing an opinion on something you don't even care about (?) To summarise: 'Those who post here are in an ex-premie trap; I, Mark who reads posts and also now posts here is not in an ex-premie trap' (Correct me if I've misunderstood something...)

So why can't you manage even one or two words by way of reply to the half-dozen well thought-out, articulate and mostly civil responses your post has prompted?

You throw a ball into the playground. Fine, good, welcome and everything - but do you know how to kick the fucking thing?

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Date: Wed, Feb 07, 2001 at 00:56:15 (GMT)
From: Mark
Email: None
To: Nigel
Subject: It's a matter of civil courtesy, Mark...
Message:
I have read the replies to my original post. I take on board what Brian says. When I walked away some 20 years ago, there was no net or forums or any mechanism for like minded people to communicate the way you do now. Also, I have no experience of whats happened in the last 20 years.

I do however feel that the anger shown even to my minor point(considering that I agree with all of your sentiments) indicates that you guys are pretty obssessed which means that M has still got you, which means you are not free of him which is what you all want and why you left him in the first place.

By maintaining this high state of anger and frustration, you are as badly off as you were before.

I regret the way I phrased my first comment, I am not trying to set myself up as different or better than you guys, I battle along with the same problems as everyone else but possibly 20 years ago, all one could do was walk away, try to learn from the experience and get on with things as there was no other choice.

Mabye thats the real difference between old ex-premies and a new ones.

My point should be clear now and I have no further points to make.

Cheers.

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Date: Wed, Feb 07, 2001 at 01:37:39 (GMT)
From: Nigel
Email: None
To: Mark
Subject: Did I hear an 'Ouch!?'
Message:
Quick respose, Mark. I'm sorry you only replied to my hastily-assembled scribbles, rather than to posts with more substance written by others. Sorry, too, you've apparently nothing more to add. Trouble is, that makes you sound even more like a 'hit-and-run' merchant. Kid at the edge of the playground saying 'it's my ball, I don't even like this game - never did - I'm going home, can I have my ball back..?'

We've had many similar visitors with views usually more hostile than your own. (The usual stuff: Be like me, move on - get a life!'

But speaking of hit and runs, did you hear about M's hit-and-run incident? (Probably not - he tends not to mention it in introductory videos, and it happened after your time, anyway)

Maharaji, whilst driving in India in '83, killed a cyclist. To avoid the attentions of the law, he pretended he wasn't driving and got some humble devotee to face the questions. How do you feel about that? Is this the same Lord you sang Arti to in '78? before moving on?

I have read the replies to my original post. I take on board what Brian says.

Ok, 'taking on board' is cool, if somewhat meaningless. But why not reply to Brian? Tell us what you've taken on board? This is a public forum and if you can't hack it, why even show up?

When I walked away some 20 years ago, there was no net or forums or any mechanism for like minded people to communicate the way you do now. Also, I have no experience of whats happened in the last 20 years.

Me neither. I exited the hard way. Thank Christ for the internet, wouldn't you say? So much simpler if a place like this had existed back when..

Perhaps I do however feel that the anger shown even to my minor point(considering that I agree with all of your sentiments) indicates that you guys are pretty obssessed which means that M has still got you, which means you are not free of him which is what you all want and why you left him in the first place.

Face it, Mark, how free of him are you? You apparently quitted half a century ago after a 'brief' involvement which presumably didn't involve surrendering your life, yet here you are chatting away with the rest of us...?

By maintaining this high state of anger and frustration, you are as badly off as you were before.

What do even you know about ANY of us? Get off your high horse, for one moment, please.

I regret the way I phrased my first comment, I am not trying to set myself up as different or better than you guys, I battle along with the same problems as everyone else but possibly 20 years ago, all one could do was walk away, try to learn from the experience and get on with things as there was no other choice.

Mabye thats the real difference between old ex-premies and a new ones.

Believe me, new ex-premies have the same problems as old ex-premies. My best ex-premie friend only got involved ten years after I'd quit. Struggled with the same bullshit as the rest of us.

My point should be clear now and I have no further points to make.

To me, your reason for posting at all is far from clear. Your reason for not engaging in sensible discussion still looks like hit and run.

Cheers.

Yeah, whatever... I'll raise a glass when you join in properly. Do you like Theakston's XB?

(Have you read the 'Journeys' section? And how's your lower right frontal cortex?)

Nigel

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Date: Wed, Feb 07, 2001 at 03:41:13 (GMT)
From: Mark
Email: None
To: Nigel
Subject: Just a little one
Message:
Thanks for your detailed reply to my message.

Look, you can't accuse me of being a hit and run merchant on the one hand and complain that I am chatting away on the other - thats having your cake and eating it.

I can't rebutt all your rebuttals as the e-mail will get silly, anyway I can understand your point of view and accept much of what you say.

I am not hostile to the forum. I just thought it was pointless but I can see now that its not. Its obviously important to have.

Your story of M and the hit and run is a good illustration of the general direction the forum seems to take (from what little I have read, I admit). The focus is on M and his misdeeds and rotten behavior. Its tempting to get drawn into that but surely its ultimately pointless. Stories about M only confirm what we already know and realised the moment we decided to walk away from him.

I can't see how that direction helps us out unless the goal of the forum is simply to run a hate campaign which would be unfortunate as that would not assist ex premies in closing one chapter of their lives and moving on to another.

I feel that we should be honest with ouselves (but not neccessarily with other forum members) and accept that we are in this situation because of our own failings. We should learn from the experience to ensure that it can't happen to us again. Possibly we all people who share some sort of predisposition that allowed M to entangle us.

At the risk of your wrath in this matter, let me state that I see a trap if we switch from devotion to M to hatred of M. Its still all abot M and not about ourselves, our lives, our futures and our worth.

I am a Guiness man myself. Guiness is master of the brewniverse. Mabye we should all become Brewnies.

Fingers crossed,

Mark.

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Date: Wed, Feb 07, 2001 at 06:03:36 (GMT)
From: Nigel
Email: None
To: Mark
Subject: jeez..
Message:
Thanks for your detailed reply to my message.

And thanks for the studied avoidance of that detail.

Look, you can't accuse me of being a hit and run merchant on the one hand and complain that I am chatting away on the other - hats having your cake and eating it.

Isn't it obvious? Turning up here and starting a thread is most certainly 'chatting' - albeit with a distinctly passive-aggressive tone. Checking out again before properly addressing your critics is what I'd call hit and run. No double-bind save the one you created.

(New evidence since last exchange: I'd especially like you to deal with Bazza's points above - he makes you look like a modern day 'person with knowledge' pretending to be someone he/she isn't. I'm sure you're not, of course, but he's got me wondering...)

I can't rebutt all your rebuttals as the e-mail will get silly, anyway I can understand your point of view and accept much of what you say.

This isn't email, it's a public forum, and it's silly enough already. Why can't you address the points you now supposedly 'understand'? How much of what I say do you accept? And how much sillier might you sound if you don't clarify the inner process you have apparently undergone since starting this thread?

I am not hostile to the forum. I just thought it was pointless but I can see now that its not. Its obviously important to have.

Why do you suddenly think the forum is important? Nothing you've said up to now would lead anyone to that conclusion...
(And how about a new thread saying sorry for previous thread - if you got it wrong and everything?)

Your story of M and the hit and run is a good illustration of the general direction the forum seems to take (from what little I have read, I admit). The focus is on M and his misdeeds and rotten behavior. Its tempting to get drawn into that but surely its ultimately pointless.

As I said before, knowledge of M's misdeeds will in itself prevent many future aspirants from getting suckered in. How pointless is that, oh pontificating visitor?

Stories about M only confirm what we already know and realised the moment we decided to walk away from him.

So we should keep our doubts and realisations to ourselves... is THAT it?! Why?

I can't see how that direction helps us out unless the goal of the forum is simply to run a hate campaign which would be unfortunate as that would not assist ex premies in closing one chapter of their lives and moving on to another.

It may not help YOU out, but it has helped many others quit a life-sapping cult. So, please, either discuss things properly, show some genuine empathy and understanding or fuck off.

I feel that we should be honest with ouselves (but not neccessarily with other forum members) and accept that we are in this situation because of our own failings. We should learn from the experience to ensure that it can't happen to us again. Possibly we all people who share some sort of predisposition that allowed M to entangle us.

Wrong focus, Mark. It will NEVER happen again for any of us, our personal failings notwithstanding, but our stories will help stop it happening to others. Is that such a bad thing?

At the risk of your wrath in this matter, let me state that I see a trap if we switch from devotion to M to hatred of M. Its still all abot M and not about ourselves, our lives, our futures and our worth.

And for as long as he's in business, yes, it should be about 'M'. This forum is about M. 'Our futures and our worth' we can do in our spare time.

Is your off-forum time more productive than mine or anybody elses? I doubt it, somehow..

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Date: Wed, Feb 07, 2001 at 07:49:04 (GMT)
From: Mark
Email: None
To: Nigel
Subject: RE:jeez..
Message:
Dear Nigel,

Its difficult to move this forward if you simply chop up every sentence and micro criticise every word I say. Then you expect me to rebut your criticisms on all fronts or explain in detail why I accept each of them. Give me a break here.

In case you won't, let me state my current view of the forum taken from your and some other responses.

Its good because it disseminates info to potential aspirants. It allows people to share their experiences of M and thereby build a big picture of what he is all about and what historically occured. It also provides a social framework for Ex Premies and not least, it facilitates their helping themselves get over their exposure to the cult. That seems to sum it up and thats what I now accept and understand.

What I don't agree with is the following snip that I sent and that you responded to:

'At the risk of your wrath in this matter, let me state that I see a trap if we switch from devotion to M to hatred of M. Its still all abot M and not about ourselves, our lives, our futures and our worth.

And for as long as he's in business, yes, it should be about 'M'. This forum is about M. 'Our futures and our worth' we can do in our spare time.'

I thought that the intention of this web site was to provide a facility for Ex Premies. All the complaints about my first message say as much. I accepted at the start of this message its a good site for that purpose. If he went out of business, the implication of your reply above is that the site would no longer be needed. That is clearly not the case.

On rereading your replies to me, its clear that you cannot address my central point directly. You are sidelining me with personal attacks.

I put it to you Nigel that you hate M with a passion and that its not good enough for you if other people don't hate him but simply don't care about him or anything to do with him. Am I wrong about this. My observation Nigel is that if I am right, this traps you as surely as your previous life did. You really will have to deal with your anger and bitterness or do you plan to keep it up for the rest of your life, if so, in my book, he wins, you lose.

Thats really cause for sorrow.

Mark.

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Date: Wed, Feb 07, 2001 at 16:45:34 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Mark
Subject: Mark, you don't understand what dialogue is
Message:
Its difficult to move this forward if you simply chop up every sentence and micro criticise every word I say. Then you expect me to rebut your criticisms on all fronts or explain in detail why I accept each of them. Give me a break here.

That's how it works, bud. What's the matter? You've never had a real discussion before? Try it. Try actually meaning what you say and saying what you mean. No excuses. See where it leads. You might actually find that words are something more than slippery, meaningless fish flopping around in a barrel. Of course, if you balk at the process you'll never know, right?

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Date: Wed, Feb 07, 2001 at 03:53:14 (GMT)
From: Pat Conlon
Email: None
To: Mark
Subject: Just a little Guiness
Message:
Yuck. Don't you know that alcohol brewed from grains evokes the barnyard animals and that from grapes evokes the muses?

A lot of the stuff about Pope Rawat's misdeeds are regurgitated for the benefit of newcomers not so much for the ephemeral pleasure of dihing the dirt, although that can be fun.

This advice is also often iterated here: a lot of this stuff has been talked about again and again (including your observation that we are ''distaff'' premies.)

It is not always said again and again by the same people. There are hundreds of people reading this and they each put in their two-cents worth. The cumulative affect is that all we do is slag off the Hindu gentleman.

But the longer you read here and engage in conversation with others you will see that we've all moved on and are posting mostly for the benefit of others whose hard-earned money has gone to recently buying Pope Prempal a new $7.5 million dollar yacht.

It's a scam playing on peoples' fears of the unknown and that's not cricket.

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Date: Wed, Feb 07, 2001 at 04:28:30 (GMT)
From: Mark
Email: None
To: Pat Conlon
Subject: I give up
Message:
What else has he been up to in the last 23 years.

Do you know, I actually saw the news clip on TV in the UK in 1973 when he was caught red handed by UK customs smuggling a bunch of gold watches out of the country.

4 years later in Durban SA, I became an aspirant then a premie. Its funny how you can stare reality in the face and then deny it.

Anyway in Durban being involved was fun because most premies were indians and the few whites like myself loved the anti apartheid aspect of it all. It felt dangerous, the indians cooked this glorious food which we ate and we visited their areas and houses which was ferboden in those times in SA. They were really serious about M and loved all the Indian stuff that he did at the time. To them he was a mainstream spiritual leader. all the Arthi and meditation and bowing was how their religion works anyway. To the whites it was pretty exotic stuff.

Anyway, I got to see all those beautiful indian girls close up which was normally impossible in SA at the time.

However, once I got knowledge, (even though I had an amazing experience at Hans Jayanti in Orlando at Darshan where I seemed to enter some sort of ecstatic state that lasted for a couple of hours), I found the meditation a complete grind. I hated it, stopped doing it and eventually drifted away, preferring sex and rock and roll. (Drugs were hard to come by in SA).

I kept in touch with the indians until I left the country as I can truly say, they were amongst the finest people I have ever met in my life. They really adored M and its possible that in terms of the Hindu religion he is mainstream and legitimate. Many Indian gurus, I have read about or heard of over the years claim to be god or some aspect of god. Perhaps, we in the west simply don't relate to the terminology and culture that he came from (and why should we) and so mistook him to be something he is possibly not considered to be in his own culture and so he thrived.

Lets face it Oral Roberts claimed to speak to god so do other televangelists who also appear to have comparable lifestyles to M. The god business is a good business to be in.

Are there any Colleges in the US where I could learn this stuff, I am looking for a mid life career change.

Bye for now,

Mark.

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Date: Wed, Feb 07, 2001 at 06:47:21 (GMT)
From: Pat Conlon
Email: None
To: Mark
Subject: Mark, do I know you?
Message:
I was the sissie boy who was community co-ordinator in Durban 77-78 in the center on Chelmsford Road in the Berea.
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Date: Wed, Feb 07, 2001 at 07:00:43 (GMT)
From: Mark
Email: None
To: Pat Conlon
Subject: Mark, do I know you?
Message:
Now I am really shocked,

78 was exactly when I was aspiring and doing my thing. The whites there that I recall were Chris, Tudor, Adrian, John and Lisa as well as Eugene and Felicity who came back around then and an English guy who was into horticulture with long blond hair - was that you. 'Patrick' rings a bell

The centre moved from Berea to Glenwood in 78 I think.

Caroline was my initiator after the move to Glenwood.

Tell me more about when you left Durban or the centre.

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Date: Wed, Feb 07, 2001 at 07:15:45 (GMT)
From: Pat Conlon
Email: None
To: Mark
Subject: Mark, do I know you?
Message:
I left Sept 78 so I must have just missed you. I lived in that house with Lisa, Adrian and John but moved out when I had a run-in with Bhoola Bai about propagating to Coloureds. He told me M did not like that. Keith was the horticulturalist and he married a woman from Austria and moved to Amanzimtoti. Lisa at one time moved to the ashram in Joburg.
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Date: Thurs, Feb 08, 2001 at 08:31:36 (GMT)
From: Jethro
Email: None
To: Pat Conlon
Subject: Thanks for that fact Pat
Message:
'......I had a run-in with Bhoola Bai about propagating to Coloureds. He told me M did not like that.'

When I was first satsanged((late 73)), I wa stold that this K is so univeral, so true that in South Africa, even under aparthied, satsangs were allowed to mixed.

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Date: Thurs, Feb 08, 2001 at 09:01:13 (GMT)
From: Pat Conlon
Email: None
To: Jethro
Subject: Religions were always exempt from apartheid
Message:
But as I told cq I will post the story on the ''apartheid'' mentality of the Gujerati premies.
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Date: Wed, Feb 07, 2001 at 18:30:02 (GMT)
From: cq
Email: None
To: Pat Conlon
Subject: WHAT????? pardon me but this is DYNAMITE!
Message:
dynamite and disgusting, Pat

You say the Maha:

'didn't like propagating to Coloureds'

WHAT? Really????

Please, tell us more.

I am truly amazed.

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Date: Wed, Feb 07, 2001 at 20:37:38 (GMT)
From: Pat Conlon
Email: None
To: cq
Subject: WHAT????? pardon me but this is DYNAMITE!
Message:
I'll post that story soon. Promise.
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Date: Wed, Feb 07, 2001 at 07:36:08 (GMT)
From: Pat Conlon
Email: None
To: Mark
Subject: Mark, PS Yes , I know excatly what you mean by
Message:
how beautiful the Indian premies are. It suits them but that doesn't mean their guru isn't a crook. When I moved to the USA in 78 I was shocked at what Pope Rawat had done here. It was a creepy cult only now it is a church. He got rich on the backs of the ashram premies in the west. They're pissed.

I just finally parted company with the perfect master a month ago and started posting here but I had been reading it for a while. The stuff about the Indian background is especially revealing as is Mike Dettmers stuff.

Don't be put off by the guard dogs. Their bark is worse than their bite. You should have seen the horrendous reception I received when I posted. Just be nice and polite unlike me when I went on a drunken rampage here the first time I posted as Thelma the Thunderstealing Bitch.

BTW The ''god business'' may be lucrative but it is a dirty business. Find another career.

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Date: Wed, Feb 07, 2001 at 08:09:16 (GMT)
From: Mark
Email: None
To: Pat Conlon
Subject: Coincidence or what?
Message:
Pat,

Its amazing, I must have just missed you, possibly by weeks. I remember Chris standing up one day soon after I first attended Satsang. He went to give satsang, said it was a pile of crap and walked out never to be seen again. Everyone said he had freaked out as though that was the mind overcoming the spirit. They all felt sorry for him. The poor indian were seriously nonplussed.

By the way Hiraby who had the corner cafe in Grey street died at some point in the early eighties, he was such a good hearted man. I guess the rest of the oldies like Kappi and Mr Singh and the old ladies are no longer with us or are certainly well past their sell by dates by now. I remember those people with much nostalgia. Good people remain good even in bad circumstances.

Tell me why you stuck things out for so long if you saw that the States was rotten way back in 78. Why did'nt you just walk away and forget about it and do something else or get into something else?

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Date: Wed, Feb 07, 2001 at 08:16:24 (GMT)
From: Pat Conlon
Email: None
To: Mark
Subject: Coincidence or what?
Message:
Where do you live now? The last time I went back I went to visit Devi Ben (Hira Bhai's wife) and was shocked to see that she had had her leg amputated.

I dropped out of the cult in 1983 but stuck with the meditation and still knew premies and last year was invited back to help run things but the new non-cult church was just as creepy as the old cult and I left after having run ins with the church-ladies who run the business for the boss.

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Date: Wed, Feb 07, 2001 at 08:39:29 (GMT)
From: Mark
Email: None
To: Pat Conlon
Subject: Coincidence or what?
Message:
Dear Pat,

Do you have a hotmail account?

Regards

Mark

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Date: Wed, Feb 07, 2001 at 08:36:52 (GMT)
From: Pat Conlon
Email: pdconlon@yahoo.com
To: Pat Conlon
Subject: PS Mark, I'm off to bed - email me if you want
Message:
Are you a Brit? Het jy a bietjie van die taal geleer wanneer jy in Suid Afrika was?. As jy het, dan kan ons a bietjie skinner.
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Date: Tues, Feb 06, 2001 at 15:59:53 (GMT)
From: JohnT
Email: None
To: Mark
Subject: et moi, Brute?
Message:
JohnT
- never a premie
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Date: Tues, Feb 06, 2001 at 14:35:11 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Mark
Subject: Yeah, it's a bit of a 'cause'. So?
Message:
Hey man, if you don't want to play, fine. Some people save the whales, we're trying to save people from a whale. Big deal if you're not interested. What do YOU so with your time that's so damn interesting?
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Date: Tues, Feb 06, 2001 at 18:21:25 (GMT)
From: JHB
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Saving people from a whale
Message:
Jim,

Brilliant! Let's drag him back out into the ocean he washed up from. And no that's not a threat, I was speaking figuratively:-)

John.

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Date: Tues, Feb 06, 2001 at 14:25:29 (GMT)
From: Scott T.
Email: None
To: Mark
Subject: ex -premies are in a trap
Message:
So, my take on what you're saying is that you're just better adapted and more psychologically healthy than the people on this forum. Oh, and that the human spirit is, as it ought to be, a business. Thanks for the comparison and the insight. Just dazzling.
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Date: Tues, Feb 06, 2001 at 12:38:28 (GMT)
From: Jethro
Email: None
To: Mark
Subject: ex -premies are in a trap
Message:
Yes we exs are really silly that we don't want other to be robbed and we want people who molest others be brought to justice.

You maythink you 'moved on', but you are still a premie.

So welcome to the ex-premie forum and go fuck off!

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Date: Tues, Feb 06, 2001 at 12:24:00 (GMT)
From: Brian
Email: brian@ex-premie.org
To: Mark
Subject: Quickie-Premies are ignorant
Message:
I was a premie briefly in the late seventies.

Who better to post the following drivel:

Maharaji sells a product.

I'll omit your advertising analogy, but you refer to products like Coca-Cola that have TOTAL PRICES printed clearly on them. Buyers look at the REAL PRICE and make their own decisions. Since you've been out of the loop FOR ALMOST 25 YEARS, you're probably not aware that there are people stumbling in here who have been ASPIRANTS for 5-10 years. They've followed the changing rules, been jerked around, ran to whatever events were being required at the time, and still haven't had that pause that refreshes. How long did you spend in the checkout stand?

And then there the price that you 'paid'... You gave NOTHING. Congratulations. Who better to lecture the suckers here that pissed away those years that Maharaji held no interest to you, right?

You never lived in the ashrams.
You never gave up a thing.
You were never tossed out on your ass with huge bills to pay after dedicating the most productive years of your life to a fraud.

This site and forum were not meant for the 'undamaged' like yourself who had their free ride on the backs of the suckers who paid. There is nothing keeping you here.

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Date: Tues, Feb 06, 2001 at 15:29:32 (GMT)
From: salam
Email: None
To: Brian
Subject: Could not say it any better, thank you..nt
Message:
nt
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Date: Tues, Feb 06, 2001 at 10:34:38 (GMT)
From: JTF
Email: None
To: Mark
Subject: This is why rawat's still dangerous
Message:
The vast majority of people who received K over the years have left. A relatively small percentage of them are aware of this site and consider themselves as Ex-premies. Most have found it convenient to slink away into the night rather than confront themselves on why they would get involved with such a ludicrous individual. Such thoughts as, 'I took what was good and moved on' and 'K and M are great but it's just not for me' are quite common. I suppose some people never really took it as an all or nothing experience so maybe they weren't significantly damaged.

For those that put their heart and soul into it and then realize they had fallen for the old 'God Scam', it is really confronting.

To me an ex-premie is one who is trying to deal with the fact that they trusted a ridiculous con man. A cult, in the context of this site, I would define as a group that believes totally ridiculous things because for some bizarre reason they find it convenient-a con man thrives on this. A lot of people here bought into this thinking and are trying to deal with the consequences. While only about 2000 people still are active cult members in North America, there are many, many thousands here and the rest of the world that might want to confront their horrible mistake in judgment, i.e. trusting rawat.

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Date: Tues, Feb 06, 2001 at 05:13:32 (GMT)
From: Steve Quint
Email: the_avenger55@hotmail.com
To: Everyone
Subject: Repost Of Cq/Jean-Paul Gem
Message:
From the thread: 'In touch with reality? What do you think:' which is going inactive:

cq: Enjoying life is apparently obligatory in the Maha's world, and if you don't feel gratitude for being alive, well you're obviously not a good advertisement for the knowledge.
That seems to be the attitude that he's fostering, and it's an appallingly insensitive one. In fact the constant pretence at happiness, and the denial of life's more difficult (but no less real) problems could well be sowing the seeds for some premies to turn into out-and-out delusional psychotics whose grasp on reality is as shaky as the Maha's. These people are going to need counselling, poor sods.

It's amazingly insensitive for a multi-millionaire like Rawat to utter the kind of 'each day is priceless' spiel. Coming from the likes of Tiny Tim (remember him - from Dickens' 'A Christmas Carol'?) it would actually mean something. But coming from a fat cat like Rawat - ... sheer pukesville.

Jean-Paul: M says look inside, there is happiness. Usually, when you look inside, you see a lot of things, continual thinkings, emotions, unconscious forces. M doesn't speak about that. I think it is dangerous to introduce meditation the way m does. You don't deal with what you are but look for something. The repression is heavy and you don't learn anything about yourself. Even moments of peace are ephemeral. The method of m is bad. He speaks of happiness but doesn't know the way to deal with what we are. He makes everybody feel guilty. Not only he is not the lord but he is not even a good professor of meditation. So what is he?

cq: what indeed, Jean-Paul?
Imagine if you had at your disposal all the combined efforts of all the people who have taken 'knowledge' over the last thirty years.

Imagine what you could do with all that devotion and self-sacrifice.

And then look at what the Maha has done with that opportunity.

.
.
.
.

You ask: 'What is he?'

My answer: a wastrel.

If premies' energies had been channeled into a cause that wasn't constantly drained by his extravagance; if our sense of community hadn't been split by divisive quarrels caused by the excessive demands on our trust; and if our trust hadn't been abused by a power-tripping narcissist such as he, then what could have been achieved?

.
.

but then, what point is there in wondering what could have been?

One thing I know for sure, the trust in him has gone. As for the trust in what brought us all together - the chance to work for a better world - well, idealistic it might have been, but at least it wasn't a shameful cause to commit oneself to.

SQ's comments:

I almost cried when I read the third part, cq's response to Jean-Paul.

I went to the satellite event Sunday. I know two aspirants - friends of a very close friend who received k - who look forward to receiving knowledge. They seem like honest, sincere people seeking truth and happiness. I've known the fellow for a few years and find him to be one of the nicest people I know. They are a couple - the fellow was upset when I told him a month ago that I was active at ex-premie.org. Maybe he feels knowledge is his only chance for 'enlightenment' or happiness and that I'm mucking up his chances for success.

I find that, while there were about fifty people there on Sunday, the biggest turnout I've seen in a long time, and some of the people seem happy and friendly, the happiness is in most or all cases strange. I feel like I'm walking on eggshells when I talk to these people - I have to be careful not to say anything to question or shake their belief system. Some of these people have obviously modified their normal mentality to incorporate a very strange set of teachings and still put forward a 'normal' face to the world. No mean feat. And results are very strange, coming across either as arrogance or silliness in most cases.

A very strange situation. I still feel very upset from the aftershocks of going yesterday and sitting through the entire video which my consciousness knew for every second was extremely fucked up. Yes the wag who called me masochistic is right in a way. But my motives are pure, at least I think they are. Chiefly, I want to keep up contact with the group that I've been involved with over the years. I want to see how they've changed and how I've changed. But it hurts - to see people that I've hung around for years but cannot get close to. To see what kind of 'teacher' I've followed. Very humbling.

Steve

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Date: Thurs, Feb 08, 2001 at 17:56:37 (GMT)
From: Cynthia
Email: None
To: Steve Quint
Subject: Hi Steve--Maharaji is Dangerous
Message:
I've been so busy this week, I'm still catching up on threads. When I read the re-post, this particular paragraph really hit me hard:

Jean-Paul: M says look inside, there is happiness. Usually, when you look inside, you see a lot of things, continual thinkings, emotions, unconscious forces. M doesn't speak about that. I think it is dangerous to introduce meditation the way m does. You don't deal with what you are but look for something. The repression is heavy and you don't learn anything about yourself. Even moments of peace are ephemeral. The method of m is bad. He speaks of happiness but doesn't know the way to deal with what we are. He makes everybody feel guilty. Not only he is not the lord but he is not even a good professor of meditation. So what is he?

Steve,
I shudder at how dangerous it was and is for Maharaji to be teaching ANYTHING! First he sent out Mahatmas who spoke little English, were unworldly, especially in the customs of the West. Great idea. They sure had a clue!! Many were abusive as we've been reading in that solemn and grave thread about Maharaji's ABUSES to premies!! They simply passed it from M onto us. Then he made the western, mostly white European, Canadian, US initiators. They passed it to the premies and on and on. Maharaji's lack of understanding of human nature is now astounding to me. For him to ignore any person with mental illnesses or emotional disorders was stunningly negligent to his followers, some of this ignorance of his lead to suicides, after all.

What is frightening to me is how closely Maharaji's behavior is to a classic abuser and sadist. Yes, Maharaji is a sadist. What were called ABUSES in the thread were in fact, TORTURE. Endurance tests, indeed. I had my endurance test and I failed. Great messages, eh? I can't imagine what Maharaji had in his head when he did things like making a Mahatma eat dog shit??!!! Breaking someone's nose for fun? Throwing a premie who could not swim out of a boat for fun? That's pure sadism. People who are tortured are put into terrifying emotional and physical pain. When perpetrated by ''the most beloved'' in our case Maharaji THE SADIST, dissociation takes place, then later Post Traumatic Stress Disorder (PTSD) kicks in. This isn't new age mumbo jumbo psychobabbe.

M's cycle was abuse, love, torturous guilt and mind fucks, more abuse, love; diminish the sense of self by verbal battery in a formal setting, on a throne, where he ALWAYS said he was greater than god. For him to deny that is the biggest joke of all. Just because he referred to himself in the third person means nothing. It shows how stupid he is, because it's all so transparant, now anyway. My father ALWAYS forgot his actions through self-medication: booze, presc. meds, etc.

I read those posts and even though I had heard all of the stories, I was stunned once again. Then the ashram satsang at Kississimme. You know, I remember going there, I remember listening to him with the ashram brothers and sisters, but I cannot remember anything else about it. People were crying after it, I know I was. How perfect were we to be for him? For the MOST IMPERFECT ONE!!! I can't remember it but I remember my feelings were suppressed. He told us we were REALLY BAD PEOPLE! FUCKHEAD RAWAT. Hear that EV Monitors: FUCK YOU MAHARAJI! I know it's still in my noggin though, it would be interesting to hear that tape or at least read a transcript of that infamous ashram satsang.

Steve, this is not advice, but I do agree with Francesca that staying away is better. The perspective does become better at a distance. Some folks can do it, I can't. I've had enough emotional reaction exiting, I don't want to add anymore.:))

Be well,
Love,
Cynthia

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Date: Tues, Feb 06, 2001 at 21:08:34 (GMT)
From: cq
Email: None
To: Steve Quint
Subject: That's a tough situation you're in there, Steve
Message:
and, much as I'd like to offer some insight into possible ways of dealing with it, it's a situation I've had no experience of myself.

In fact, posting on this site is the closest contact I've had with premies for years!

I wonder what's preventing the aspirants from reading about M's history on the ex-premie.org pages? If they were informed of the facts about his past and could see the quotes from his 'perfect master' days, they'd be in a better position to judge just what it is they're letting themselves in for when signing up for 'that gift' (and just what kind of dependence comes with the deal).

Perhaps copying selected pages of that material to another website, and calling it 'maharajibackground.org' or something equally non-threatening might be an idea that Jean-Michel could consider?

best,

Chris

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Date: Tues, Feb 06, 2001 at 11:16:42 (GMT)
From: Jean-Paul
Email: None
To: Steve Quint
Subject: Repost Of Cq/Jean-Paul Gem
Message:
We can respect the beliefs and don’t interfere. We can use the direct confrontation. We can transmit what we have underestood et help the premie to think and question himself, if he wants. Sometimes it depends upon to who we speak.
The paradoxe is that premies think that they are in the truth. We see another truth. How can there be a point of communication and exchange ?
I keep contact some premies. Somtimes it is hard to discuss with objectiviy about their fondamental beliefs as it with anybody who has the absolute and definive belief that his way is THE TRUTH, especially when there is the saviour, god, the grace that are involved. To point out to the weakness and the flaws of the belief system and the psychological factors that lie underneath is for me a kind of love and honesty. No need to impose anything and embarrass too much. It has never done any harm to anybody to think and question things. Just to be afraid of discussing about something proves there is something wrong somewhere.
And if it doensn’t work, they still stay my friends. I don’t have particular obsessions.
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Date: Tues, Feb 06, 2001 at 06:29:05 (GMT)
From: Francesca
Email: None
To: Steve Quint
Subject: Repost Of Cq/Jean-Paul Gem
Message:
This is very tough. Hopefully you'll be able to gradually disengage from the scene itself and move on, and yet still be able to maintain relationship with your real friends in other settings (i.e. NOT at video events). I find that the most difficult challenge of my disengagement (which has been ongoing since 1984-1985) is friends and family that are still very engaged, as well as friends that are on the way out but won't give it up. I don't want to hurt them, and feel that doing anything to attack someone else's belief system is unethical. Our true selves and our false selves are so fragile. I just plain have no right. (I except what I do on this forum, because if someone comes here, they are looking to take a peek at the other side.)

But I wouldn't go near a video event or the live thing again.

When I moved away from the whole thing I sensed that there were definitely some old friends who didn't want to take the time to stay in touch any more (even with both people making the effort this is hard for middle aged busy working adults at best). But my real friends, wherever they happen to be at with M, are my friends still. Friends are friends, after all. That can't be faked. It may be painful to see who will still take the time without the commonality of the M connection. Don't rip yourself away any faster than you need to, but don't linger and cause yourself unnecessary pain.

Best of luck with all this. Please share your thoughts as things evolve. And thanks for the repost. It is a gem.

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Date: Tues, Feb 06, 2001 at 03:31:23 (GMT)
From: la-ex
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: M's poetry: I'm starting to understand him now....
Message:
The EV gang sent me this booklet of m's little stories and poems this last year.
I never looked at it seriously, but as I went to toss it in the trash can today, I took one more look. I'm glad I did, because it really helped me understand a bit of m's twisted, self centered and self absorbed logic.
I think you'll see what I mean, as you read the following:

'Inspired by the dancer's dance,
I choose those things that allow me to watch.

My happiness and even my sadness are simple-neither is a consequence.
My sorrow does not come from what has happened-it comes from not watching the dancer.
When I begin to watch the dance again, there is joy.
Removed from that, everything is sorrow,
even if nothing has gone wrong.
It could not be more simple.

To catch the magic again is everything.'


If I understand m correctly, there are no consequences, and his sorrow doesn't come from what has happened.
And when he does feel sorrow, all he has to do is watch the dance again.
It could not be more simple, according to m.

I think this does really help me understand him a bit more. There are no consequences, and if you ever feel bad, it's not because of something you might have done, it's because you've taken your eyes off the dance of life.Hence, no need to reconcile or explain things that have gone wrong...you just have to watch the dance again.
No wonder they're leaving in droves....

But this one, is really my favorite:
It's an excerpt from 'I have dreams'.

'It would be wonderful if human beings knew and loved peace.
And it would be wonderful if people did not have to lie to protect themselves.'

'These are big dreams, but I am not the only one has them'.

Sweet dreams everyone,
La-ex

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Date: Tues, Feb 06, 2001 at 11:28:17 (GMT)
From: AJW
Email: None
To: la-ex
Subject: M's poetry: I'm starting to understand him now....
Message:
Hi la-ex,

The rich and famous often paint themselves into a corner. When you think you are perfect, and surround yourself with sycophants, you get little negative feedback about what you are doing. Everyone tells you how fantastic everything is all the time. This is definitely the case with Maharaji. Criticism of him is absolutely taboo. It is the end of your career as a premie.

This type of arse-licking environment generates inane crap- like the cult videos and the Lard's poetry.

I can imagine him showing his poems to people, 'What do you think of this one?'

Out of the mouth comes, 'Maharaji, it's beautiful. I touched me really deeply. It's not only a lovely poem, but it's helping me understand my existence too.'

But inside, that wicked mind is talking, 'This is really a pile of shite. But I'm not going to be the one to tell him. I don't want to lose my seat at the front of the next programme, and have to get a proper job.'

'Yeah. Really brilliant Maharaji. Makes Kabir look like a bozo.'

Trouble is, he handles his day job as badly as he writes poetry.

Anth the literary critic.

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Date: Tues, Feb 06, 2001 at 19:53:57 (GMT)
From: Conlon
Email: None
To: AJW
Subject: M's poetry: Anth, did you ever hear of
Message:
''Patience Strong?'' ''She'' wrote poetry for the Readers' Digest in the fifties ala:

''The sun rose this morning and kissed my lips.
I looked across the ocean and saw my ships
Coming home and said to myself, 'How blessed am I
When the Lord lets such beauty touch my eye.''

Or something like that. I just made that up in a hurry. You were left feeling like you had just eaten some cotton-candy (Yank for candy floss.) But my mother would read it with tears in her eyes.

The first time I ever heard Rev Rawat read his ''poetry'' (in Miami in 1983) I burst out laughing but the audience's moan of gratitude drowned me out.

Is it time for mr to renew my licence, Anth?

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Date: Wed, Feb 07, 2001 at 04:50:19 (GMT)
From: Pat Conlon
Email: None
To: Anth
Subject: Anth, the point of that story is that it turned
Message:
out that Patience Strong (who published books of doggerel like Hallmark publishes cards) was a committee. I guess by the time ELKs poets' ouvres have been edited by Glen Whittaker (who should be ashamed of himself - he did me a good turn once) they will sound like they have been composed by a committee.
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Date: Wed, Feb 07, 2001 at 10:57:42 (GMT)
From: AJW
Email: None
To: Pat Conlon
Subject: Committee would be an improvement
Message:
Hi Pat,

A committee would probably do better that the Lard. At least it might have the courage to remove the forced rhymes.

It's amazing nobody's told him his poetry is crap yet.

Here's a quickie for ya' pat:

A Satguru from Dehra Dun
Thought writing some poems would be fun,
But his words are all shite,
(just like his divine light)
So he should stick his forced rhymes up his bum.

Anth from Limerick

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Date: Tues, Feb 06, 2001 at 06:15:46 (GMT)
From: Scott T.
Email: None
To: la-ex
Subject: M's poetry: I'm starting to understand him now....
Message:
la-ex:

But this one, is really my favorite:
It's an excerpt from 'I have dreams'.

'It would be wonderful if human beings knew and loved peace.
And it would be wonderful if people did not have to lie to protect themselves.'

'These are big dreams, but I am not the only one has them'.

'I Have Dreams' vs. 'I Have a Dream.' Says it all, thanks.

--Scott

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Date: Wed, Feb 07, 2001 at 12:39:41 (GMT)
From: ex-flowerchild
Email: None
To: Scott T.
Subject: M's poetry: I'm starting to understand him now....
Message:
It's funny the way he talks about 'human beings' as though he's from another planet looking on with pity and wonder. Maybe all that Lord of the Universe, reserving parking spaces for UFO's at festivals stuff had a deep psychological impact on him and part of him actually thinks he's not really a human. Well, we do know he's a Hamster but an alien?

I'd to see him give a poetry reading in front of a drunk Rimbaud.

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