Forum V: Archive
Compiled: Wed, Feb 14, 2001 at 05:07:59 (GMT)
From: Feb 03, 2001 To: Feb 13, 2001 Page: 2 Of: 5


AJW -:- Oh my Guru Maharaji. -:- Thurs, Feb 08, 2001 at 19:17:54 (GMT)
__ cq -:- Oh my gawd -:- Fri, Feb 09, 2001 at 21:18:28 (GMT)
__ Cynthia -:- Oh my Guru Maharaji you are such a Sadist to me.. -:- Thurs, Feb 08, 2001 at 22:14:05 (GMT)
__ Kelly -:- I don't remember saying that Oh my Guru Maharaji. -:- Thurs, Feb 08, 2001 at 22:06:18 (GMT)
__ __ Marianne -:- you got K in '71? -:- Thurs, Feb 08, 2001 at 22:28:51 (GMT)
__ __ __ Kelly -:- That's the least of my crimes nt -:- Thurs, Feb 08, 2001 at 22:53:36 (GMT)
__ Gregg -:- Did I really say 'take my mind?' God help me. (nt) -:- Thurs, Feb 08, 2001 at 19:34:24 (GMT)
__ Joe -:- It Wasn't only then -:- Thurs, Feb 08, 2001 at 19:31:05 (GMT)
__ __ Jerry -:- It Wasn't only then -:- Thurs, Feb 08, 2001 at 21:59:06 (GMT)
__ __ __ cq -:- 'need Maharaji like a hole in the head' -:- Fri, Feb 09, 2001 at 21:11:11 (GMT)
__ __ AJW -:- Low and High Esteem. -:- Thurs, Feb 08, 2001 at 19:40:21 (GMT)
__ __ __ Selene -:- Low and High Esteem. YES! -:- Thurs, Feb 08, 2001 at 20:22:23 (GMT)
__ __ __ Joe -:- Agreed -:- Thurs, Feb 08, 2001 at 19:44:59 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ ham -:- Not so true for me -:- Thurs, Feb 08, 2001 at 23:00:44 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ AJW -:- Yup again Joe. -:- Thurs, Feb 08, 2001 at 20:02:35 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ moldy warp -:- vile vows -:- Sat, Feb 10, 2001 at 05:57:09 (GMT)

Pat Conlon -:- Are Ex-premies obsessed with Maharaji? -:- Thurs, Feb 08, 2001 at 18:59:50 (GMT)
__ JohnT -:- Bringing Indians into the battle against the Rat -:- Fri, Feb 09, 2001 at 13:53:35 (GMT)
__ __ Pat Conlon -:- Bringing Indians into the battle against the Rat -:- Fri, Feb 09, 2001 at 17:39:39 (GMT)
__ __ __ JohnT -:- Bringing Indians into the battle against the Rat -:- Sat, Feb 10, 2001 at 23:45:20 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Pat Conlon -:- Hohn T, I am giving this a lot of serious thought -:- Sun, Feb 11, 2001 at 01:52:04 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Pat Conlon -:- Oops! Above should be to John T, of course NT -:- Sun, Feb 11, 2001 at 01:54:13 (GMT)
__ Cynthia -:- Are Ex-premies obsessed with Maharaji? -:- Thurs, Feb 08, 2001 at 22:04:18 (GMT)
__ __ Kelly -:- Are Ex-premies obsessed with Maharaji? -:- Thurs, Feb 08, 2001 at 22:35:34 (GMT)
__ AJW -:- Obsession. -:- Thurs, Feb 08, 2001 at 19:52:37 (GMT)
__ AJW -:- Maharaji who? -:- Thurs, Feb 08, 2001 at 19:08:02 (GMT)
__ __ Francesca -:- slip slidin' away n/t -:- Thurs, Feb 08, 2001 at 19:11:01 (GMT)

Marianne -:- My greed hath no bounds, compassion disallowed -:- Thurs, Feb 08, 2001 at 15:45:02 (GMT)
__ Cynthia -:- Hi Marianne -:- Fri, Feb 09, 2001 at 19:30:46 (GMT)
__ Francesca -:- Couldn't agree more, one of my prime motivators .. -:- Thurs, Feb 08, 2001 at 18:33:28 (GMT)
__ Jethro -:- My greed hath no bounds, compassion disallowed -:- Thurs, Feb 08, 2001 at 17:06:17 (GMT)

romilar -:- GM, e.t. and/or fraud -:- Thurs, Feb 08, 2001 at 15:20:29 (GMT)

hamzen -:- GM's simplistic communication style and us -:- Thurs, Feb 08, 2001 at 06:32:01 (GMT)
__ Francesca -:- Hamzen -- well spoken, I couldn't agree more -:- Sat, Feb 10, 2001 at 00:15:25 (GMT)
__ Joe -:- The torture of the pause -:- Fri, Feb 09, 2001 at 17:07:46 (GMT)
__ __ ham -:- Aaahh, the oh so natural pauses -:- Sat, Feb 10, 2001 at 22:22:36 (GMT)
__ __ Jim -:- High fives on that one, Joe (nt) -:- Fri, Feb 09, 2001 at 19:54:53 (GMT)
__ Gregg -:- GM's simplistic communication style and us -:- Thurs, Feb 08, 2001 at 17:58:05 (GMT)
__ __ ham -:- But what about unconsciously Gregg -:- Fri, Feb 09, 2001 at 00:16:04 (GMT)
__ __ Marianne -:- Hi Gregg --OT -:- Thurs, Feb 08, 2001 at 18:10:04 (GMT)
__ Jim -:- Amen, brudda -:- Thurs, Feb 08, 2001 at 15:45:45 (GMT)
__ __ ham -:- But it will be hell -:- Fri, Feb 09, 2001 at 00:11:13 (GMT)
__ baz -:- other avatars -:- Thurs, Feb 08, 2001 at 14:50:09 (GMT)
__ __ Francesca -:- What a wimpo M is in comparison -:- Sat, Feb 10, 2001 at 06:37:22 (GMT)
__ __ ham -:- Ha ha ha, wild Baz -:- Fri, Feb 09, 2001 at 00:03:45 (GMT)
__ __ Gregg -:- Adi Da/Maharaji -:- Thurs, Feb 08, 2001 at 20:13:10 (GMT)
__ __ Brian S -:- Is this is not Bubba Free John reinvented? -:- Thurs, Feb 08, 2001 at 18:26:54 (GMT)
__ __ __ Gregg -:- Bubba Free John, Adi Da: aka... -:- Thurs, Feb 08, 2001 at 21:30:36 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Pat Conlon -:- Put on your Adidas and run as fast as you can -:- Fri, Feb 09, 2001 at 02:11:14 (GMT)
__ Robyn -:- GM's simplistic communication style and us -:- Thurs, Feb 08, 2001 at 14:01:44 (GMT)
__ __ ham -:- That's an interesting one -:- Thurs, Feb 08, 2001 at 23:44:30 (GMT)
__ __ __ Robyn -:- That's an interesting one -:- Fri, Feb 09, 2001 at 01:30:46 (GMT)
__ Scott T. -:- GM's simplistic communication style and us -:- Thurs, Feb 08, 2001 at 07:24:47 (GMT)
__ __ Pat Conlon -:- GM's simplistic communication style and us -:- Thurs, Feb 08, 2001 at 08:46:27 (GMT)
__ __ __ Jim -:- I've got a foo foo theory about that -:- Thurs, Feb 08, 2001 at 15:48:07 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Francesca -:- My initial reaction was to fall asleep too -:- Sat, Feb 10, 2001 at 06:46:32 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Pat Conlon -:- Jim, you fell asleep too? -:- Fri, Feb 09, 2001 at 05:28:24 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Francesca -:- Someone else you know ... -:- Sat, Feb 10, 2001 at 06:48:33 (GMT)
__ __ __ Scott T. -:- 'In the beggning' as opposed to 'now' -:- Thurs, Feb 08, 2001 at 13:39:33 (GMT)
__ __ __ Jean-Paul -:- GM's simplistic communication style and us -:- Thurs, Feb 08, 2001 at 11:48:47 (GMT)
__ __ ham -:- But Scott take our natural intelligence -:- Thurs, Feb 08, 2001 at 08:06:35 (GMT)
__ __ __ Scott T. -:- The Unjust -:- Thurs, Feb 08, 2001 at 14:08:14 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ ham -:- Maybe you're right -:- Thurs, Feb 08, 2001 at 23:27:00 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Scott T. -:- Maybe you're right -:- Thurs, Feb 08, 2001 at 23:56:36 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ ham -:- Maybe you're right -:- Fri, Feb 09, 2001 at 00:39:25 (GMT)
__ __ __ Pat Conlon -:- Our natural intelligence -:- Thurs, Feb 08, 2001 at 08:50:23 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ ham -:- That's frightening -:- Thurs, Feb 08, 2001 at 23:32:41 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Jethro -:- an EG of m's success in separating people -:- Fri, Feb 09, 2001 at 06:47:55 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ JTF -:- an EG of m's success in separating people -:- Fri, Feb 09, 2001 at 13:05:47 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Scott T. -:- Our natural intelligence -:- Thurs, Feb 08, 2001 at 14:18:23 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ ham -:- The anti-world banks eco crowd -:- Thurs, Feb 08, 2001 at 23:36:49 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Scott T. -:- The anti-world banks eco crowd -:- Fri, Feb 09, 2001 at 00:09:37 (GMT)

Moley -:- Front Row Center -- Oxnard -:- Thurs, Feb 08, 2001 at 00:20:15 (GMT)
__ salam -:- what are you talking about? -:- Fri, Feb 09, 2001 at 00:32:22 (GMT)
__ __ JHB -:- Read it again..... -:- Fri, Feb 09, 2001 at 01:26:38 (GMT)
__ __ __ Cynthia -:- JHB, you read it again:::)))) (NT) -:- Fri, Feb 09, 2001 at 19:04:09 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ JHB -:- OK - I got it the wrong way round:-(((((( -:- Fri, Feb 09, 2001 at 21:31:51 (GMT)
__ __ __ salam -:- Is that sharing? -:- Fri, Feb 09, 2001 at 14:53:39 (GMT)

Been There -:- MUST READ! -:- Thurs, Feb 08, 2001 at 00:03:16 (GMT)
__ Patrick (formerly Anon) -:- To FA - A link to Journeys from here? -:- Thurs, Feb 08, 2001 at 10:37:27 (GMT)
__ __ JHB -:- To FA - A link to Journeys from here? -:- Thurs, Feb 08, 2001 at 11:59:51 (GMT)
__ Jim -:- I agree all the way (nt) -:- Thurs, Feb 08, 2001 at 01:57:42 (GMT)

G -:- Bush and the Moonies, Scientologists (OT?) -:- Wed, Feb 07, 2001 at 23:17:47 (GMT)
__ G -:- more -:- Thurs, Feb 08, 2001 at 16:29:11 (GMT)
__ Scott T. -:- Bush and the Moonies, Scientologists (OT?) -:- Thurs, Feb 08, 2001 at 07:29:00 (GMT)
__ mark -:- can M get federal funding now -:- Wed, Feb 07, 2001 at 23:46:41 (GMT)
__ __ JHB -:- In theory - EV is a church -:- Thurs, Feb 08, 2001 at 00:00:07 (GMT)
__ __ __ mark -:- who will benefit from the funds -:- Thurs, Feb 08, 2001 at 00:17:12 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ JHB -:- who will benefit from the funds -:- Thurs, Feb 08, 2001 at 07:15:18 (GMT)
__ Joe -:- NYT Article Re Scientologists (OT?) -:- Wed, Feb 07, 2001 at 23:28:09 (GMT)
__ __ Scott T. -:- NYT Article Re Scientologists (OT?) -:- Thurs, Feb 08, 2001 at 07:43:02 (GMT)
__ __ __ Joe -:- NYT Article Re Scientologists (OT?) -:- Thurs, Feb 08, 2001 at 19:23:02 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Scott T. -:- NYT Article Re Scientologists (OT?) -:- Fri, Feb 09, 2001 at 00:21:09 (GMT)
__ __ Susan -:- NYT Article Re Scientologists (OT?) no not at all -:- Thurs, Feb 08, 2001 at 03:40:35 (GMT)
__ __ __ Scott T. -:- Protestant sectarianism (ot) -:- Thurs, Feb 08, 2001 at 15:20:00 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Susan -:- Protestant sectarianism (ot) -:- Thurs, Feb 08, 2001 at 18:17:52 (GMT)
__ __ __ Jerry -:- NYT Article Re Scientologists (OT?) no not at all -:- Thurs, Feb 08, 2001 at 11:52:01 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Francesca -:- And what kind of audits will these groups ... -:- Thurs, Feb 08, 2001 at 19:08:39 (GMT)

Suzanne -:- Maharaji's abuses -:- Wed, Feb 07, 2001 at 22:18:55 (GMT)
__ kap -:- Maharaji's abuses -:- Sat, Feb 10, 2001 at 13:39:43 (GMT)
__ AJW -:- Maharaji's abuses -:- Thurs, Feb 08, 2001 at 11:04:35 (GMT)
__ __ Steve Quint -:- Maharaji's abuses -:- Fri, Feb 09, 2001 at 13:45:07 (GMT)
__ __ __ AJW -:- Maharaji's abuses -:- Fri, Feb 09, 2001 at 14:31:17 (GMT)
__ __ __ Steve Quint -:- Maharaji's abuses -:- Fri, Feb 09, 2001 at 13:51:59 (GMT)
__ __ Joe -:- Can you elaborate? (nt) -:- Thurs, Feb 08, 2001 at 19:35:51 (GMT)
__ __ __ AJW -:- My brush with death at the Residence. -:- Fri, Feb 09, 2001 at 10:29:33 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Steve Quint -:- My brush with death at the Residence. -:- Fri, Feb 09, 2001 at 17:13:49 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ AJW -:- My brush with death at the Residence. -:- Fri, Feb 09, 2001 at 20:18:01 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Steve Quint -:- My brush with death at the Residence. -:- Fri, Feb 09, 2001 at 21:51:57 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ AJW -:- I take your point Steve -:- Sat, Feb 10, 2001 at 11:24:24 (GMT)
__ __ Jethro -:- Anth, you obviously didn't have any faith!(nt) -:- Thurs, Feb 08, 2001 at 17:12:22 (GMT)
__ Susan -:- Michael Dettmers,Suzanne asked for comment above -:- Thurs, Feb 08, 2001 at 04:26:14 (GMT)
__ Joy -:- Maharaji's abuses -:- Thurs, Feb 08, 2001 at 00:31:42 (GMT)
__ __ Postie -:- Gary Gerrard and Milky were under the blanket -:- Thurs, Feb 08, 2001 at 01:41:25 (GMT)
__ __ __ Jethro -:- Gary Gerrard's broken nose -:- Thurs, Feb 08, 2001 at 02:01:57 (GMT)
__ Bin Liner -:- Bihari Singh -:- Wed, Feb 07, 2001 at 23:50:11 (GMT)
__ __ kap -:- Bihari Singh -:- Sat, Feb 10, 2001 at 13:53:05 (GMT)
__ __ Marianne -:- Bihari Singh got pied by M -:- Thurs, Feb 08, 2001 at 16:15:28 (GMT)
__ __ Francesca -:- Bihari Singh -:- Thurs, Feb 08, 2001 at 00:15:44 (GMT)
__ __ __ Joe -:- Bihari Singh -:- Thurs, Feb 08, 2001 at 00:27:37 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ chr -:- Bihari Singh -:- Fri, Feb 09, 2001 at 08:29:48 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ DV -:- Bihari roomed with me at the Broad Ripple in 79-80 -:- Thurs, Feb 08, 2001 at 11:26:37 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Patrick Conlon -:- Bihari Singh -:- Thurs, Feb 08, 2001 at 03:03:14 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Susan -:- Bihari Singh -:- Thurs, Feb 08, 2001 at 03:36:53 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ kap -:- Bihari Singh -:- Sat, Feb 10, 2001 at 14:07:23 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Patrick Conlon -:- Susan, Inidan mahatmas -:- Thurs, Feb 08, 2001 at 04:42:39 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ kap -:- Susan, Inidan mahatmas -:- Sat, Feb 10, 2001 at 14:16:50 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ cq -:- kap, why do all these guys want to kill you? (nt) -:- Sat, Feb 10, 2001 at 16:34:19 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Postie -:- Bihari Singh -:- Thurs, Feb 08, 2001 at 01:49:20 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Curious George -:- Bihari Singh -:- Thurs, Feb 08, 2001 at 03:32:02 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Patrick Conlon -:- Bihari Singh's mustache -:- Thurs, Feb 08, 2001 at 04:59:23 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Jethro -:- True Patrick, but he did forgive... -:- Thurs, Feb 08, 2001 at 07:54:20 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Francesca -:- I was around Charanand when the split happened -:- Thurs, Feb 08, 2001 at 17:21:17 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Pat Conlon -:- Jethro, I had forgotten about that -:- Thurs, Feb 08, 2001 at 08:07:33 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Joe -:- Gurucharanand -:- Thurs, Feb 08, 2001 at 16:35:39 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Jethro -:- Gurucharanand -:- Fri, Feb 09, 2001 at 10:54:43 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ chr -:- Gurucharanand -:- Fri, Feb 09, 2001 at 08:35:18 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Joe -:- Oh yes, the infamous Jamie -:- Fri, Feb 09, 2001 at 16:57:01 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Francesca -:- Oh yes, the infamous Jamie -:- Fri, Feb 09, 2001 at 17:39:19 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Ian Dury -:- Gurucharanand's comfort -:- Thurs, Feb 08, 2001 at 18:31:19 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Susan -:- I agree -:- Thurs, Feb 08, 2001 at 14:52:47 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Curious George -:- Creature Comforts -:- Fri, Feb 09, 2001 at 19:58:02 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Monmot -:- Marino et al. -:- Thurs, Feb 08, 2001 at 02:12:21 (GMT)
__ Francesca -:- such as 'suck the rat!' -:- Wed, Feb 07, 2001 at 23:46:40 (GMT)
__ __ Monmot -:- such as 'suck the rat!' -:- Thurs, Feb 08, 2001 at 00:03:14 (GMT)
__ __ __ Francesca -:- Dean Ruiz on K's website -:- Thurs, Feb 08, 2001 at 00:20:57 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Monmot -:- Dean Ruiz on K's website -:- Thurs, Feb 08, 2001 at 00:32:24 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Francesca -:- Exactly .... heavy marshmallows! -:- Thurs, Feb 08, 2001 at 01:12:25 (GMT)
__ SB -:- Maharaji's abuses at Amaroo -:- Wed, Feb 07, 2001 at 23:45:43 (GMT)
__ Tim G -:- Maharaji's abuses -:- Wed, Feb 07, 2001 at 23:08:25 (GMT)
__ __ G -:- Maharaji's abuses -:- Wed, Feb 07, 2001 at 23:33:53 (GMT)
__ __ __ Joe -:- Kissemee Freakouts -:- Wed, Feb 07, 2001 at 23:43:30 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Mr Mind -:- Kissemee Freakouts -:- Fri, Feb 09, 2001 at 13:09:16 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Francesca -:- Kind of like Woodstock w/o the music -:- Fri, Feb 09, 2001 at 17:45:20 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Straw Newcomer -:- Where Am I? -:- Fri, Feb 09, 2001 at 17:55:42 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Katie -:- Cognitive Dissonance and Bizarre Reality -:- Sat, Feb 10, 2001 at 16:41:02 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ David_J -:- Kissemee Freakouts -:- Fri, Feb 09, 2001 at 15:55:30 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ ex-flowerchild -:- Kissemee Freakouts -:- Fri, Feb 09, 2001 at 16:21:40 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ D_Thomas -:- Coincidence? -:- Thurs, Feb 08, 2001 at 02:47:05 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ D_Thomas -:- Climates -:- Thurs, Feb 08, 2001 at 21:25:27 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Jethro -:- Kissemee Freakouts -:- Thurs, Feb 08, 2001 at 02:21:04 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Jean-Michel -:- As Krishna in His cart: the picture -:- Thurs, Feb 08, 2001 at 15:59:41 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Joe -:- Thanks, J-M .....and -:- Thurs, Feb 08, 2001 at 17:08:24 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Susan -:- JM, encore of the horse's ass pic too -:- Thurs, Feb 08, 2001 at 18:26:08 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Jean-Michel -:- Picture in a good place now !! -:- Fri, Feb 09, 2001 at 11:17:04 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ bill -:- really impressive work JM!-nt -:- Sat, Feb 10, 2001 at 02:29:57 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Postie -:- Barbara Clay -:- Thurs, Feb 08, 2001 at 02:00:56 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Jeff -:- Barbara Clay -:- Thurs, Feb 08, 2001 at 15:50:58 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Monmot -:- Yes..........nt -:- Thurs, Feb 08, 2001 at 16:10:25 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Jeff -:- Barbara -:- Thurs, Feb 08, 2001 at 17:06:47 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Monmot -:- I agree completely.......nt -:- Thurs, Feb 08, 2001 at 18:12:40 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Joe -:- Barbara Clay -:- Thurs, Feb 08, 2001 at 02:24:39 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Postie -:- Excommunicated -:- Thurs, Feb 08, 2001 at 03:32:58 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Monmot -:- Barbara Clay -:- Thurs, Feb 08, 2001 at 02:06:15 (GMT)
__ Paul -:- Gary Gerard's Nose -:- Wed, Feb 07, 2001 at 22:35:00 (GMT)


Date: Thurs, Feb 08, 2001 at 19:17:54 (GMT)
From: AJW
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: Oh my Guru Maharaji.
Message:
Hi,

Anyone who was initiated into the cult up to about 1985, had to make the following promises, out loud, before they were inititated.

It's interesting to see most of the vows are aimed at him rather than the inner experience, or the individual. Take a deep breath, open your wallet, close your eyes, and say,

'Oh my Guru Maharaji, I dedicate myself to your lotus feet. I am weak and ignorant and am filled with the impurities of this world.

Oh Guru Maharaji, please take my mind and purge me of the impurities I possess. Reveal to me the knowledge of all knowledge.

Strengthen me, uplift me and reveal the kingdom of heaven within inside of me.

Bring me from hate to love, from darkness to light, death to immortality.

I will OBEY you implicitly and will never reveal this knowledge to anyone for any reason.

I will keep in contact with you through my DEVOTIONAL LOVE, satsang,meditation and service.

Thank you my LORD for everything.'

Rather contradicts the recent propaganda doesn't it?

Anth passing on prayers.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Fri, Feb 09, 2001 at 21:18:28 (GMT)
From: cq
Email: None
To: AJW
Subject: Oh my gawd
Message:
'Thank you my LORD for everything' - well there's another nail in the coffin of Ratty Rawat's denial that he ever claimed to be god.

Has anyone still got their copy of these vows - printed and scannable, that is?

.
.
.
BTW, this doesn't make it any better, but don't the Xtians spend a lot of time demanding that you declare yourself a 'worthless sinner'?

Saviours? who needs 'em? (if that's what 'being saved' is all about).

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Thurs, Feb 08, 2001 at 22:14:05 (GMT)
From: Cynthia
Email: None
To: AJW
Subject: Oh my Guru Maharaji you are such a Sadist to me..
Message:
I made those vows. Yuck! They were printed on a sheet in our Knowledge Packet, just in case we forgot what scum were really were.

It wasn't only low self-esteem that he ingrained in us, it was guilt that later built into a deep shame, which he made big bucks on.

Now that I have reviewed all his ''abuses'' I conclude he is nothing but a sadist cult leader who doesn't know love from shit.

Cynthia, the very pissed off at Maharaji today--double Scorpio in a full moon....

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Thurs, Feb 08, 2001 at 22:06:18 (GMT)
From: Kelly
Email: None
To: AJW
Subject: I don't remember saying that Oh my Guru Maharaji.
Message:
Stuff, I received K in 1971 in Prem Nagar and I don't remember saying anything like that. In fact I don't remember saying anything at all during the knowledge session. When someone asked me 'How was it for you?' afterwards, I ran and I ran and I ran along the banks of the Ganges, until I was exhausted and alone. Then I began to assess it. I don't remember any vows or promises, and , as far as I'm concerned I never made any...and yet...

Yet, its strange, because until recently there is no way I would have revealed the techniques. As long as I was still in the delusion that fatrat was somehow a super special being and his noledge a sacred secret, then I kept 'mum'.....Now I'll show anybody who wants to know...no compunction...no problem. In the same way that I will suggest a good herb or a good exercise, so I might suggest a meditation technique. What a sad sad shame that he still perpetuates this atmosphere of secrecy and lies. And what a good cover for the Emperor's New Clothes.

It all looks a bit shabby to me now
Kelly

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Thurs, Feb 08, 2001 at 22:28:51 (GMT)
From: Marianne
Email: None
To: Kelly
Subject: you got K in '71?
Message:
Jeez, you didn't tell me THAT! You're even more unhinged than me! What a great time we'll have in London!!!!!

Love, Marianne

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Thurs, Feb 08, 2001 at 22:53:36 (GMT)
From: Kelly
Email: None
To: Marianne
Subject: That's the least of my crimes nt
Message:
gbh!
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Thurs, Feb 08, 2001 at 19:34:24 (GMT)
From: Gregg
Email: None
To: AJW
Subject: Did I really say 'take my mind?' God help me. (nt)
Message:
x
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Thurs, Feb 08, 2001 at 19:31:05 (GMT)
From: Joe
Email: None
To: AJW
Subject: It Wasn't only then
Message:
That prayer of dedication was said lots of other times. At knowledge reviews, and sometimes just after Arti. We would all pranam to the picture of the Lord and his Lotus Feet, and say that prayer, lead by some Mahatama or MC of some sort.

Is says a lot that someone had to 'promise' that they are:

weak and ignorant and filled with the impurities of this world

Isn't that really the key, and still the key? If you listen to the drivel M spouts now, that is his basic point. You are lost, weak, unhappy, and utterly helpless to help yourself. Luckily, it's Maharaji to the rescue. That's all you need to know.

I really think that if a premie accepts that he or she is an impure amoeba, like Pauline Premie, what choice do you really have but to desperately hold onto Maharaji? Even if you know he is an alcholic, sex devient, with material greed beyond measure, what else can you do? And then, he continues to tell you how lost you (and the rest of humanity) are.

Isn't the cult really based on a premise of extremely low self-esteem of its members?

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Thurs, Feb 08, 2001 at 21:59:06 (GMT)
From: Jerry
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: It Wasn't only then
Message:
Even if you know he is an alcholic, sex devient, with material greed beyond measure, what else can you do? And then, he continues to tell you how lost you (and the rest of humanity) are.

Recently, a premie parroted Maharaji's own words by asking what does it matter who the person is offering water in the middle of a desert; it's the water that counts. So Maharaji somehow has got this dodo bird convinced he's out in the middle of the desert and only Maharaji has the water. Yes, Joe, Maharaji can't seem to hammer that message home often enough, that without him, you're nothing. I wish more people would wake up to that fact and see just how bamboozled they've been. It's the first step to freedom, I think, to realize you need Maharaji like a hole in the head.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Fri, Feb 09, 2001 at 21:11:11 (GMT)
From: cq
Email: None
To: Jerry
Subject: 'need Maharaji like a hole in the head'
Message:
- or like you still need a driving instructor every morning you get in the car?
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Thurs, Feb 08, 2001 at 19:40:21 (GMT)
From: AJW
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: Low and High Esteem.
Message:
Hi Joe,

I agree with you about the cult creating a feeling of low esteem. It was all connected to 'surrender', and the thing that stopped you 'surrendering' was your 'mind'. Pranaming and going through a darshan line is the same conditioning in humiliation and subservience.

I think this was in some way compensated by a feeling of high esteem, equally disturbing and unhealthy. It's walking around with the smug knowledge that you have recognised the Perfect Master of the Age. You have his 'knowledge' and can see straight through the 'illusion' of the imperfect world, into the source of peace within. Oh pity these poor fools who are blind, and don't know the Master is here again.' You are like someone who saw Buddha when he was alive, in the Deer Park in Benares. It's a massive ego trip, that makes you feel superior to anyone who doesn't have 'Knowledge'.

Anth the Libran

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Thurs, Feb 08, 2001 at 20:22:23 (GMT)
From: Selene
Email: None
To: AJW
Subject: Low and High Esteem. YES!
Message:
And the attitude of superiority is still around.
(unless sickronization worked and I missed it)
I'm glad you caught that 'high esteem' part AJW. It was very distrubing to me and was one of the key factors in my leaving the cult of the bigM.

ps - I've been home a lot and reading up on cults. Not to diminish M and his doings but some of these cults are really scary. I saw Salam mention the Japanese guy who had his followers throw the nerve gas into the trasit tunnels.
I think in the 70's some were that far gone including the leader.
Now I don't know?
Seems to me M's entire goal is self aggrandization and does not include any mass threats or acts of violence. Still it scares me to know the power someone like M has over his 'students' .

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Thurs, Feb 08, 2001 at 19:44:59 (GMT)
From: Joe
Email: None
To: AJW
Subject: Agreed
Message:
It's kind of like the cult creates the problem and then solves it.

You have to agree with your master that you are a worthless piece of shit, but you have knowledge and if you surrender to it you feel better, and get to believe you have the solution to your essentially defective nature.

You get to be smug because all those other people don't even know they are worthless pieces of shit and so aren't open to the solution.

I really think, though, that if you don't accept really low self-esteem in the first place, you won't be open to knowledge, or if you are and receive it as knowledge-lite, as getting a nice experience, you won't stay with it, because it really has nothing to offer besides making you feel better that you have something.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Thurs, Feb 08, 2001 at 23:00:44 (GMT)
From: ham
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: Not so true for me
Message:
You have to agree with your master that you are a worthless piece of shit,
but you have knowledge and if you surrender to it you feel better, and get
to believe you have the solution to your essentially defective nature.

You get to be smug because all those other people don't even know they
are worthless pieces of shit and so aren't open to the solution.

I really think, though, that if you don't accept really low self-esteem in the
first place, you won't be open to knowledge, or if you are and receive it as
knowledge-lite, as getting a nice experience, you won't stay with it, because
it really has nothing to offer besides making you feel better that you have
something.

I'm not so sure Joe, I was never won over by gm, could never make the connection, but knew I would get nothing from the meditation unless I relaxed and didn't put guilt trips on myself.
This was true with me all the way except for about six months after I'd had the k techniques about a year. I started trying to follow what he said, with great difficulty, and the experience I was getting from meditation started to dry up, so I dropped the guilt trips.
Also for over a decade I was seeing increasingly seeing how incompetent he was, but I saw my experience as personal, not his, so still kept going bigtime.
But then I got k because I had really grilled my future wife for months on EXACTLY what she was experiencing, so I knew what I was after was possible through k.
Now I know that was far from unique, but another flavour

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Thurs, Feb 08, 2001 at 20:02:35 (GMT)
From: AJW
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: Yup again Joe.
Message:
One of the big hooks was the 'Guru Culture.' This whole scam has been going for millenia in India. My experience of Ratguru has left me with an extremely cynical attitude to 'Masters and Disciples', which is an unhealthy relationship for both parties.

There was a tradition that we were joining when we sang Arti, where the Master is seen as God in Human Form. Everything we ended up 'experiencing for ourselves', the 'divinity' in the experience of Knowledge, the infallibility of the guru, surrendering, etc, were all part of the Hindu tradition. In the West the masses were milked by the priest. In India, they have Gods in human forms all over the place. They often come up to you on the street, dressed in orange, and ask you for money. They tell you they're Shiva, and wave tneir trident threateningly.

Gurus were a booming business in the post acid years of the late 60s and early 70s. After taking a tablet and seeing God, at the age of 20, what was there to do but figure out a way to be there all the time.

Yeah, it was drugs and Hinduism wot fucked me up and made me servile Joe.

Anth, who thinks he'll join the army next time around.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sat, Feb 10, 2001 at 05:57:09 (GMT)
From: moldy warp
Email: None
To: AJW et al
Subject: vile vows
Message:
Yep. Agree with you about high/low self esteem. And I said those vows in 1978, lying flat on my face with head in a cushion. I remember the instructor said she felt resistance in the room and would whoever it was own up and they could leave and wait til they were totally surrendered. I thought 'Oh God. It's me' but kept my mouth shut as I could not face going to any more nightly aspirant satsang. God, what an idiot!
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Thurs, Feb 08, 2001 at 18:59:50 (GMT)
From: Pat Conlon
Email: pdconlon@yahoo.com
To: Everyone
Subject: Are Ex-premies obsessed with Maharaji?
Message:

It seems that at least once a week a new person arrives and accuses us of harboring so much anger and hatred for the Hindu from Hardwar that we have become ''distaff'' premies. When I first read this site over a year ago I thought the same thing.

At that time I was beginning to admit to myself that I found Pope Rawat boring and nonsensical. I began to read the forum and thought, ''Why are they so angry?'' I stopped reading it. Then about 2 months ago I took another look and found that most of the anger made sense and was completely justifiable.

Last night just before I went to bed I posted a reply to Ham about the juju-guru's nonsensical orations (in the thread below)and said that I had fallen asleep during most of his speeches over the past 28 years because they simply regurgitated the same old stuff.

When I turned off the lights, I went into that half-sleep stage where you are completely relaxed and you begin to be aware of your subconscious mind. Well, guess what I found there? Yes, a lot of garbage implanted by the Ratguru. I had absorbed it subliminally even while sleeping through his inane orations.

And guess what else? The reason why the Ratguru's speeches are boring is becasue he has only ever been saying ONE THING. Yes, all he has ever said is: ''I am the SAVIOR. Have faith in me and I will save you.''

That is all he has been saying for the past 35 years. As Ham pointed out in his post, the message is now delivered subliminally. The reason why the Rat can sit for an hour and talk such utter drivel is because he is simply padding out and filling in his one note song: ''I am the Savior. But I also fly planes and have kids and a dog.'' The other words are not important except as a means of further charming his already spellbound audience.

Well, guess, what Mr Rawat. You are a LIAR and a CONMAN and I will make sure that before I die that you will admit that you are a LIAR and CONMAN and you will not only apologise to those of us you have lied to and conned but you will GIVE EVERY PENNY BACK that you took under FALSE PRETENSES.

That is why I participate synchronistically on FV. I am mad as hell and am not going to take any more of your bullshit, Mr Rawat. I know that the Ratguru can no longer sucker anyone in the west thanks to this site and thanks to his disrespect for standards of decent behavior in a western democracy built on the rule of law.

So exes you will have to forgive me if I start posting stuff that I know will appeal mostly to the kids of the Indian diaspora who are now becoming aware of the internet. Much of it will be boring to you but I intend to put Mr Rawat out of business altogether.

Please be advised Mr Rawat that your days as a purveyor of lies are numbered.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Fri, Feb 09, 2001 at 13:53:35 (GMT)
From: JohnT
Email: None
To: Pat Conlon
Subject: Bringing Indians into the battle against the Rat
Message:
So exes you will have to forgive me if I start posting stuff that I know will appeal mostly to the kids of the Indian diaspora who are now becoming aware of the internet.

That sounds like a Good Idea to me, Pat. Rawat's abuse of traditional teachings is a disgrace. He is a rogue guru, depraved and sociopathic. His distortions are deliberate and callous exploitation.

Exposing his faux and naff perversions to an Indian audience will give the lie to his claim that Westerners just misunderstood (that he came with greater power than ever before, and all that).

JohnT
- never a premie

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Fri, Feb 09, 2001 at 17:39:39 (GMT)
From: Pat Conlon
Email: None
To: JohnT
Subject: Bringing Indians into the battle against the Rat
Message:
To do that will mean having to write about yoga as a science of consciousness raising which in its pure sense it is and exposing Rev Rawat as an irresponsible yoga teacher. Means having to go up against the objectivists here head on.
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sat, Feb 10, 2001 at 23:45:20 (GMT)
From: JohnT
Email: None
To: Pat Conlon
Subject: Bringing Indians into the battle against the Rat
Message:
... and your point is?

Seriously, though, I do understand the concern, but I still feel it would be a shame not to open a second front. I feel that the common knowledge accepted by Indian culture (and Courts) accepts that Yoga at its best is a well developed set of techniques for producing particular subjective experiences, that it is effective. These experiences can be beneficial - but like any medicine, can also be harmful.

That is, like any effective practice, Yoga can be used responsibly and with due diligence to benefit the subject. Alternatively, it may be used irresponsibly and negligently to exploit people for gain while causing them harm.

I feel that Indian Jurisprudence is open to the idea of due diligence; and that it would not be unreasonably hostile to moves to hold damagingly irresponsible practitioners to account.

On a personal note, I do not think it is possible fully to realise just how nasty Mr Rawat is, without understanding his misuse and abuse of Yoga. He knew (or was in a position to know, and should have known) what he was doing. It would be good to have that established by common consent of his peers, and if possible, in Law as well.

JohnT
- never a premie

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sun, Feb 11, 2001 at 01:52:04 (GMT)
From: Pat Conlon
Email: None
To: JohnT
Subject: Hohn T, I am giving this a lot of serious thought
Message:
and your attention is particularly appreciated because I sense your depth of eruditiion and your open mind.

I began studying and practicing yoga two years before I met Capt Rawat but in those days I saw yoga as something starnge and mystical. Now I see that it has been blown out of all proportion by westerners due to their taking literally Hindu hyperbole.

Capt Rawat is guilty of not much more than making false subjective claims, i.e. God is within us. There is ''something'' in us (I won't go into details now because I need to brush up on my semantics) but to call it ''God'' is very naughty.

He really is nothing more than the Billy Graham of yoga preaching revivalist yoga. And yoga is pretty damn simple. Westerners have been in awe of it because of the fancy foreign words and it's association with the word ''God'' and because of the Indians' penchant for hyperbole and hyper-emotionalism.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sun, Feb 11, 2001 at 01:54:13 (GMT)
From: Pat Conlon
Email: None
To: Pat Conlon
Subject: Oops! Above should be to John T, of course NT
Message:
k
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Thurs, Feb 08, 2001 at 22:04:18 (GMT)
From: Cynthia
Email: None
To: Pat Conlon
Subject: Are Ex-premies obsessed with Maharaji?
Message:
Hi Pat, how are you?

It appears on the surface here at FV that we ''ex-premies'' are obsessed with Maharaji. I don't believe that is so. What I believe we all are doing, in our own ways, is focusing on a part of our lives which consumed us, body, mind, soul, plus material possessions, loss of youth--even in the cases of exes who never lived in an ashram.

I've heard that accusation before, but I ignore it. You bring up good points in your thread. For instance, I was severely abused by my biological father. I'll spare the gory details. I decided one day about 10 years ago to get to the bottom of what had been done to me from birth to at least age 19 and beyond.

I came to the conclusion, Pat, that the only way to become a whole, functioning, and happy person, to relieve my suffering and shame was to go through an intensive healing process which was excruciating, but I don't regret a day of the past 10 years.

I don't like to categorize degrees of abuse or human pain and suffering. I did have specific circumstances re: my mental health, because of the all-consuming way in which I lost my childhood. It was either get myself well or drink/drug myself to death. Learning is ongoing and the major traumas of childhood have been resolved for me, finally. Now I lead a normal, happy, simple life. I like it.

During these past 10 years, I have been accused by family and friends of ''obsessing'' with my past. ''Just put it out of your mind,'' is a favorite. They couldn't understand that I had to pick up those rocks and boulders that squashed my emotions, made my heart heavy, and messed up my body and mind. I had to look at what was beneath, see it, sometimes feel it all over again, then let it go.

Then just as I was feeling finished and integrated with all my childhood crap, a few months ago my rejection of M kicked in big time. Guess what? My therapist couldn't help me. And I told her so. With my personal issues she was great--a saint if there are saints. But she didn't grok worshipping M, then leaving the cult.

The thread below about Maharaji's Abuses have led me to believe he is far beyond a betrayor and conman, he is a serial abuser, maybe a psychopath with zero empathy for other human beings. I BELIEVE HE IS A SADIST!!! A true sadist. Who could have fun hurting people, torturing them, on purpose? An endurance test, Indeed.

That stuff he did to premies wasn't just abuse, it was SADISM.

I feel shaken up by those stories (which I already had heard many times) because I know what he did is true. A SADIST! A CULT LEADER! Bad combo.

No we don't obsess about Maharaji, EV Monitors, and friendly lurkers, as well. We bring out the truth about Rev. Rawat's lack of character, lack of morality, lack of emphathy, lack of love. His inability to love is astounding.

Maharaji doesn't know how to love! Maharaji doesn't feel anything. He is severely mentally ill. He is a dangerous cult leader, just like Jim Jones. That's my conclusion. Forgive him? Not quite.

Love,
Cynthia

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Thurs, Feb 08, 2001 at 22:35:34 (GMT)
From: Kelly
Email: None
To: Cynthia
Subject: Are Ex-premies obsessed with Maharaji?
Message:
Hi Cynthia, Just a note of sympathy and empathy...I relate to what you have been through, some of it the same for me..but I have encountered one simple inexorable fact, and that is that there is no-one who can really understand what it was like except another ex-premie. During my exit I have been fortunate to have a friend going through it at the same time...only one problem, she was leaving Sai Baba....It's a different story.

We share many of the same issues, the shock, the sense of betrayal, the terrible loss, the feeling of foolishness, the shame, the emptiness, the anger, the relief etc. etc. All the things a psychotherapist might relate to...BUT..it is like being a part of the same family. Only my brother and sister really know what we went through as kids, same thing with us...so no wonder we hang out together on this forum, as often as we need and for as long as we need.

The fact that there are some who are prepared to stick around for any poor stray wandering and wondering premie who might stumble by, is something that I personally will forever be very grateful for.

Let's face it they are running a terrible risk of remembering him when they die!!! What a terrible sacrifice!

Much love Kelly

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Thurs, Feb 08, 2001 at 19:52:37 (GMT)
From: AJW
Email: None
To: Pat Conlon
Subject: Obsession.
Message:
Hi Pat,

I got round to reading your post, after posting my smartarese joke reply, which will lose it's punch as soon as another message pushes it away from yours. Duh!

You are dead right. It's the hidden script that you have to be aware of when the Ratguru is given barfshan.

I think most premies would be intensly happy to sit infront of him and listen to him read the Iowa phone book out loud. He can do no wrong. It's all Grace. He is the Perfect One. He acknowledges his role in this from time to time. One way he does it is to talk about 'Guru Maharaji' in the 3rd person. Or 'His Guru Maharaj-Ji'.

The relationship is epitomised in the darshan line, where the premie makes a monetary donation and gets to kiss his feet.

YUK!

Gotta go Pat. Need a whisky. Got a funny taste in my mouth.

Anth, redressing the balance of his previous flipant response and ruining the joke at the same time.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Thurs, Feb 08, 2001 at 19:08:02 (GMT)
From: AJW
Email: None
To: Pat Conlon
Subject: Maharaji who?
Message:
Is it a type of Indian margarine?

Anth, sliding down the slippery slope.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Thurs, Feb 08, 2001 at 19:11:01 (GMT)
From: Francesca
Email: None
To: AJW
Subject: slip slidin' away n/t
Message:
rawfatt
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Thurs, Feb 08, 2001 at 15:45:02 (GMT)
From: Marianne
Email: delores@gofree.indigo.ie
To: Everyone
Subject: My greed hath no bounds, compassion disallowed
Message:
I know that I have been making lots of smart aleck posts lately, but I have another writing project that has drained my ability to make contributions of substance of late. Here's an attempt.

The thread below about Shrub's plan to allow churches to receive and funnel money to those in need is quite disturbing to me in reference to EV. I was trying to think about how we could convince the feds that not a dime should end up in the coffers of EV. The most compelling reason is that the cult really is set up to benefit a single individual: Rotwat. The funds generated by the cult are used to finance his obscenely opulent lifestyle. It is my understanding that non-profits are supposed to be set up for the public good, NOT for the benefit of a specific individual. When that happens, the group looks more like a profit making enterprise that is trying to avoid tax liability. Sound familiar?

Although EV is trying to distance itself from its organizational past, it is fair to say that satisfying Rotwat's ever increasing, greedy demands for material objects has been one of the hallmarks of the cult since it arrived on western soil. When he was 14 or 15, he wanted cars. As he got older, it was palaces, more cars, planes, jets, gold toilets and fixtures, yachts, women, drugs, and alcohol. The whole scheme, from its inception, has had satisfying his needs and selfish demands as its true purpose. Where's that in your FAQ's, EV hacks?

Then, I must comment on the thread below about Barbara Clay. I did not know her, but the story about her brought me to tears. I'm going out to light a candle for her this evening. In my experience, the absolutely worst, most vile thing that Rotwat did is to attempt to destroy our feelings of compassion for one another, and to do things in our communities, and with our families and friends, to demonstrate that compassion. If we want to make the world a better place, why give our money to someone who is peeing in gold toilets? Why not take care of our own families? What kind of person tells someone not to visit a dying friend or family member? What does that say about Rotwat's humanity? If he had an ounce of compassion in that body of his, he'd be telling people to embrace and care for others. He quit doing that, for the short time he did do it, because it meant money was going somewhere else besides his pocket.

I really don't know how the guy lives with himself. Depriving people of the chance to say the last words of love they have to someone who is dying is the lowest of the low. He knows nothing of compassion. I feel sorry for his kids. He must be a tyrant.

Marianne

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Fri, Feb 09, 2001 at 19:30:46 (GMT)
From: Cynthia
Email: None
To: Marianne
Subject: Hi Marianne
Message:
I'm happy to hear that the juices are flowing. Besides, I love your smart aleck remarks.

Thanks for a great post. Tyrant is exactly what Maharaji was and is. A sadist, too. Scary.

Go back to work...or play...

Love,
Cynthia

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Thurs, Feb 08, 2001 at 18:33:28 (GMT)
From: Francesca
Email: None
To: Marianne
Subject: Couldn't agree more, one of my prime motivators ..
Message:
for getting out of the ashram. I told the instructor, I HAVE family, and I HAVE friends. I told him that I had responsibility to others and I no longer chose to cut myself off from the world.

I remember my mother used to be weepy and moany and act all 'melodramatic' about whether she'd ever see us again. Little did I know that her instincts were right. She felt like she'd lost us. We were essentially told that our families were 'dead.' Some of the less brainwashed among us didn't buy that however, even in the ashram, and their spontaneous humanity was an inspiration.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Thurs, Feb 08, 2001 at 17:06:17 (GMT)
From: Jethro
Email: None
To: Marianne
Subject: My greed hath no bounds, compassion disallowed
Message:
'....most vile thing that Rotwat did is to attempt to destroy our feelings of compassion for one another.'

I couldn't agree more.

Jethro

Personal PS I was successful in the first oart of my courtcase. I beat one of those posh English barristers

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Thurs, Feb 08, 2001 at 15:20:29 (GMT)
From: romilar
Email: rockyromilar@yahoo.de
To: Everyone
Subject: GM, e.t. and/or fraud
Message:
AJW, not quite right, the guys who founded rome were remus and
romulus, i was their cousin though..by e.t. i meant 'easy target'
or maybe 'eternal terrorist'....the syrup guess was evident from
my superlong comment, seems like yah fell asleep midway, and
janet knew it earlier than you, janet who keeps in hiding....?!?
all that gossip going on on the web reminds me slightly/strongly
of a yellow press tabloid occasionally, if there weren't such
enlightening essays as i.e. the previous one from hamzen whose
eloquent style shows he's a rather intelligent human being..
the more so am i astonished that it took him a decade to find out that prempal is a fraud when he plainly stated that in his
'peace bomb satsang' back in 1970 :' not only am i a smuggler
and a thief, i am also a fraud ....' so why did it take you all
those years to understand??as M used say 'common sense not
very common'. what i actually do think is that this whole internet business eats up a lot of my dough, and probably yours
too, so instead of wastin our money for the forum we could use
it for a fundraising campaign to buy maharaji maybe a new yacht
or so! i will myself take care of the handling and gladly give
you my bank account number where you can transfer all your money,
but at least 10,000 bucks, janet!!!!!jai sat chit anand
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Thurs, Feb 08, 2001 at 06:32:01 (GMT)
From: hamzen
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: GM's simplistic communication style and us
Message:
Got here a bit late on all the discussions below about gm's so called speech skills.

I find it very difficult to believe that anyone could really believe he is skilled, looks like a classic case of denial to me.

I've been to two videos with people completely neutral about gm, who made it quite plain he was one of the worst speakers they had ever seen, and that he was SO obviously a fraud.

I suspect there is some denial of our duplicity/complicity going on here.

When I started having severe doubts about him I had very little evidence to go on, apart from his obvious organizational incompetence, and his obvious lack of psychological awareness.
So I spent almost a decade, with long gaps in between to digest, really looking closely at his speeches.

I came to the conclusion that we were only able to ride with his obvious fraudulence because how else could we justify to ourselves our positions there, and the time spent.

Everything about his body language, lack of spontaneity, complete inability to come up with even basic novel variations on a theme, the conflict between the constant talk about the heart with so little of it being manifested either in his speeches or his actions,
the constant nod and a wink jokes/hints about being, ya know, THE one, (remember the unsubtle premie responses and laughter to that stuff, as though no-one else would get them, when even 5 year olds would see through it).
The abuse in his speeches, the calculated rhythms and pauses, and almost digital changes in pitch, volume etc.
On some level I'm sure we knew how much in denial we were and couldn't cope with that awareness, and I suspect that that is one of the key factors behind the amount of time we wasted.

I do acknowledge that for those people from family backgrounds with similar abusive father figures the equation is more complex, but I really do think we do ourselves an injustice by saying it was ALL his fault, when our duplicity and bad faith was painfully obvious to our peer group not in a cult, ie Pat Halley, Abbey Hoffmans quote about the 'if he is god, then he's the god america deserves'.

And just in case anyone thinks this lets him off, far from it, if anything it makes it worse, because I'm certain he knows EXACTLY what he did and does do, see the lies about where the seventies guru stuff came from.
Also anyone focusing on just premie reaction to his talks would see how unsubtle and obvious we all were in our responses, at the same time happy to ride with the dissonance, so that we constantly had to resort to lila to logically justify our stance, that we had the special juju.

To give another classic example, could be argued, and frequently is by premies here, that he only ever talks about an experience, that concepts were what you got from religion, as though he was the alltime zen exponent beyond all that, yet when you go through the sppeeches line by line, they're riddled with concepts which he makes no serious attempt to hide.

I suspect that by going along with this dissonance, we were acting in bad faith, and knew it on some fundamental level, which is why SO many people when they leave still give him so much slack and just want to avoid/drop the topic, because that way that don't hAve to look at their own responsibility in this fiasco of deceipt.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sat, Feb 10, 2001 at 00:15:25 (GMT)
From: Francesca
Email: None
To: hamzen
Subject: Hamzen -- well spoken, I couldn't agree more
Message:
What you speak of, especially in your last paragraph, is exactly what I come up against with exes who have walked away but do not want to assess what it is they walked away from, or say anything negative about the gooroo, or examine their own involvement. A lot of these folks think they've moved on, because mining this material could prove painful.

And to be fair, it's exactly what I did from about 1985 when I walked away and became an ex, to about 1993 or 1994-- I would only go so far to criticize that which I helped to create.

Yes, create. You can't have a church without members. Amen.

Pass the collection plate ... and the barf bag!

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Fri, Feb 09, 2001 at 17:07:46 (GMT)
From: Joe
Email: None
To: hamzen
Subject: The torture of the pause
Message:
In addition to what everyone has said about Maharaji being incapable of saying anything more than simplistic, superficial, nonsense, it was the PAUSES that first got me.

He would always have these long PAUSES after each sentence, giving the impression that what he was saying is profound. I remember thinking at times: FINISH THE FUCKING SENTENCE ALREADY!!!

I think what I learned to do was simply to stop listening. I sat there, trying to be open, just letting his drivel waft over me and believing that 'the company of truth' was coming into my soul through the ethers or something.

If I actually tried to LISTEN to what Maharaji said, it was too exhausting because you had to work so hard to have it make some sense, to give it some meaning, because what he said was so vacuous. This is why I never understood how anyone could say they found Maharaji 'inspiring' or that he 'reminded' them of the, whatever.

Also, that's also why I found it impossible to READ what Maharaji said in AIID or Divine Times. Despite heavy editing to make it at least coherent English, I got a headache trying to read it and trying to make some sense of it.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sat, Feb 10, 2001 at 22:22:36 (GMT)
From: ham
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: Aaahh, the oh so natural pauses
Message:
Another classic example of the bad faith needed to ride with his discourses.

The other one that comes to mind is his jokes, some people are convinced he's funny, if that isn't the classic example of bad faith, I don't know what is.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Fri, Feb 09, 2001 at 19:54:53 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: High fives on that one, Joe (nt)
Message:
gggggg
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Thurs, Feb 08, 2001 at 17:58:05 (GMT)
From: Gregg
Email: None
To: hamzen
Subject: GM's simplistic communication style and us
Message:
The key to ignoring Maharaj Ji's pathetic ineptitude as a speaker and as a thinker was also the keystone to the belief system of Maharajism: the fact that we have a MIND which is the enemy of spiritual progress.

It was not a secret we were able to keep from ourselves that the word MIND included all aspects of mental activity except for those faculties engaged by satsang, service and meditation.

Simply put, thinking was bad. Engaging in thoughtful dialogue? Not in the ashram, bubbeleh!

I remember thinking 'What chutzpah!' when I saw an ashram brother engrossed in a newspaper. I was secretly jealous. I missed using my mind.

So then. Maharaji's satsang? When you don't think about it, you can't analyze it, judge it, have an opinion about it, or anything.

How we could have thought God's plan for us was to become zombies, I have no idea. Sheesh.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Fri, Feb 09, 2001 at 00:16:04 (GMT)
From: ham
Email: None
To: Gregg
Subject: But what about unconsciously Gregg
Message:
You can keep that up for a few years, but then you start getting quirky leakage, inevitable.
When it burst for me, it burst very messily.

We are social animals, we can't just switch off those functions, not long term, without some degree of bad faith and denial.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Thurs, Feb 08, 2001 at 18:10:04 (GMT)
From: Marianne
Email: delores@gofree.indigo.ie
To: Gregg
Subject: Hi Gregg --OT
Message:
How are you doing? Send me an email and I will reply.

All is going very well here. Can't thank you enough for your help and encouragement. You know what I mean!

Are ye deep in snow?

Much love to you and Paula too, Marianne

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Thurs, Feb 08, 2001 at 15:45:45 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: hamzen
Subject: Amen, brudda
Message:
Wiht you all the way, Ham. He sure had us chasing our tails over that concept / no-concept shit. I agree with all you've said. Luckily, we've only got to put up with this shit for , what? Another 99 years max? :)
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Fri, Feb 09, 2001 at 00:11:13 (GMT)
From: ham
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: But it will be hell
Message:
for the two generations below us, thankfully and hopefully we'll be in drum & bass heaven then, I wonder if there's a place there for old rockers, nah they'd wanna be in hell I reckon, and shit must get that tape off to ya.
Mind you, bet you haven't checked out John Peel on the radio1 site yet either, honestly you'll love him, his music taste and his dry/droll sense of humour. Not quite my cup of tea, though as a geezer I've got a lot of respect for him, still being treated well by youngsters, even though he's sixty, gives us hope eh!
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Thurs, Feb 08, 2001 at 14:50:09 (GMT)
From: baz
Email: None
To: all
Subject: other avatars
Message:
it could be worse! check out adi da samraj at the link below

http://adidam.org/gateway/home.htm

how about an award for the most blatant god incarnate web site?
baz

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sat, Feb 10, 2001 at 06:37:22 (GMT)
From: Francesca
Email: None
To: baz
Subject: What a wimpo M is in comparison
Message:
Not guts, no glory, gugu raji.

Why does Adi da adi da that's all folks keep changing his name?

To stay one step ahead of the IRS and/or the paternity suits?

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Fri, Feb 09, 2001 at 00:03:45 (GMT)
From: ham
Email: None
To: baz
Subject: Ha ha ha, wild Baz
Message:
And none of em would exist without all that hippy stupidity, we really were a fucking sad bunch.

Loved the bit about him being able to absorb the books and review them without having to read them, hundreds of thousands they proudly claim, even hundreds in a dAy.

Mind you I bet his followers never let themselves be financially ripped off at the level of luxuriance that gm has managed.

At $10000 a day I'd be pretty confident an'll.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Thurs, Feb 08, 2001 at 20:13:10 (GMT)
From: Gregg
Email: None
To: baz
Subject: Adi Da/Maharaji
Message:
Check out this quote from a disaffected follower of the Other Avatar:

'Lowe proceeds to describe Adi Da as 'guilty of the most monstrous egotism, unless of course he is truly an avatar, and it turns out that catering to the sexual, financial, and emotional needs of an avatar is of greater cosmic significance than helping the homeless and hungry.' '

Although Adi Da is apparently more abusive (and obviously more intelligent and articulate) than Maharaji, the rationalizations of the two gurus' followers are identical: if he's the Master, whatever he does is jim-dandy. Who am I to question the mysterious ways of God?

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Thurs, Feb 08, 2001 at 18:26:54 (GMT)
From: Brian S
Email: None
To: baz
Subject: Is this is not Bubba Free John reinvented?
Message:
Who ever he is, he gets my vote as one of the all time great spiritual assholes. What a fuckin crock of shit, and to think there are people who are supporting and believing this blantantly egotistical Jerk off. I just lost a little faith in the common sense of humanity when I see someone getting over with this kind of garbage.
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Thurs, Feb 08, 2001 at 21:30:36 (GMT)
From: Gregg
Email: None
To: Brian S
Subject: Bubba Free John, Adi Da: aka...
Message:

'Franklin Albert Jones, also known as Bubba Free John, Da Free John, Dau Loloma, Da Love-Ananda, Da Avadhoota, Da Kalki, Santosha Da, Da Avabhasa, Adi Da, and currently Ruchira Avatar Adi Da Samraj'

from religiousmovements. something or other

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Fri, Feb 09, 2001 at 02:11:14 (GMT)
From: Pat Conlon
Email: None
To: Gregg
Subject: Put on your Adidas and run as fast as you can
Message:
So that's what happened to Bubba Free John. With centers in N Cal, Hawaii and Fiji. Too much Mendocino marijuana, Maoi Wowie and Fiji weed. He may have a fancy website but I bet that is all he has. California is full of nuts like him who thought what they saw on acid was real.
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Thurs, Feb 08, 2001 at 14:01:44 (GMT)
From: Robyn
Email: None
To: hamzen
Subject: GM's simplistic communication style and us
Message:
Dear ham,
Everything you say here is 'spot on' but the reason I personally, was not left feeling dupet is because I was in for such a short time. I think I understand the difference in how I would feel if I'd given it 20+ years! I am still but was so much more gullable when I was first involved. The deal seemed ideal to me but as I've mentioned here before and people didn't think I should feel this way but I still do, that I could almost thank my mother for being abusive because I had learned to see through it many years prior to finding m and I wasn't about to let someone else rule my life.
Now though it does amaze me that I got sucked in at all. Seeing the video that has been making the rounds, Who is gm, isn't that the one, I was struck by his lack of pizzaz. I am pretty sure that it has gotten to terminal levels as the years grind on too. The videos and the steril, calculated vaugness. GAK! Did premies leave in droves at that time?

Hey, OT, I got an email by mistake today about a Rock n Roll gig at the TEMPLE BAR MUSIC CENTRE. Just curious if you or other Brits have heard of the place as I think the email came from there. The time on it was GMT but then Jade has GMT on her email too. Just curious.
Love,
Robyn

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Thurs, Feb 08, 2001 at 23:44:30 (GMT)
From: ham
Email: None
To: Robyn
Subject: That's an interesting one
Message:
because a number of people have said that they felt an unconscious attraction to gm because of similar, especially father figure abuse as kids.

Had you already done plenty of processing about your ma?
And what age were you when you heard about?

If only I'd taken the techniques and kept away, something I only half did through all my years of semi-involvement.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Fri, Feb 09, 2001 at 01:30:46 (GMT)
From: Robyn
Email: None
To: ham
Subject: That's an interesting one
Message:
Dear hammy,
Yah, maybe it was because it was my mother and not my father, eh? Could be. I don't know if I'd done any processing about my mother other then writing her off as twisted at 9yrs. I guess that was some serious processing but I took me until 37 to make some real headway.
I got into k at 18 cause the man who told me about the meditation had beautiful eyes. :) It was the meditation I was lured by and didn't give m much thought one way or the other. I did do all the arti and Boli Shi stuff but think I was conditioned with the rituals from growing up Catholic.
Love,
Robyn
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Thurs, Feb 08, 2001 at 07:24:47 (GMT)
From: Scott T.
Email: None
To: hamzen
Subject: GM's simplistic communication style and us
Message:
Ham:

Actually, I wasn't in denial at all during the period I was actually in the cult. Just completely clueless. I never did see through him completely, until some time in the '90s. I just lapsed is all. Lost track of the whole thing and got preoccupied with something else. I mean, there was that business about him denying he was the messiah, which bothered me. That definitely created a little dissonance. But by that time I wasn't following him. I met a premie woman in Eugene some time after that, and sort of had the opportunity to start it all up again... but somehow the reality bug had bit, and there wasn't much about him that was exciting any more. Even with that though, I didn't automatically assume he was a fraud. I figured there was a pretty good chance that I was just too ignorant to see what was going on... to 'grasp the lila.'

Well, I guess we may have been experiencing dissonance at the same time, but I was no longer in the community... and wasn't too tempted to go back. At least, that's the way I remember it now.

Actually, I remember what it was that kept me away. I became preoccupied with expressing whatever it was that Knowledge had evoked, so that that actually became more important than practicing Knowledge or following Maharaji. I had some sort of notion that if I couldn't express it in a way that someone could 'get' then it might as well not exist. Eventually I gave up on that whole thing, but the need for expression lingered.

--Scott

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Thurs, Feb 08, 2001 at 08:46:27 (GMT)
From: Pat Conlon
Email: None
To: Ham
Subject: GM's simplistic communication style and us
Message:
The first time I heard him speak I fell asleep and told myself that that was because my mind could not bear to be challenged by God's wisdom. I continued to fall asleep during his speeches for the next 28 years still telling myself the same thing.

I kept telling myself that I was there to ''feel'' his divine presence and that his words were reaching a deeper part of me than my mind. The vibe is what kept me going back not the words. I seldom understood what he was talking about.

It was not until about 5 years ago that I started to see that I could get the vibe at home with a couple of hours of meditation and save myself the expense of travelling for days to see him only to fall asleep and get constipated from eating bad food.

Yep, I fooled myself for a long time. Beauty (and divinity) is in the eye of the beholder.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Thurs, Feb 08, 2001 at 15:48:07 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Pat Conlon
Subject: I've got a foo foo theory about that
Message:
I really do think that the sleep thing was a fucntion of the mind turning off rather than face such a steady onslaught of boring, low-grade material. Quality control, our minds knew we had better stuff awaiting us in dreamland or something.
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sat, Feb 10, 2001 at 06:46:32 (GMT)
From: Francesca
Email: None
To: Jim and Pat C.
Subject: My initial reaction was to fall asleep too
Message:
In fact, the very first times I saw Maharaji, I was an uninhibited, uncouth hippy girl (WAS???) and I laid right down on the floor and fell asleep. Thought it was the fact that I'd finally found rest after lifetimes of searching.

Jim, I think you're right. Brainfart. Tilt. Crash-ola.

Pat, I too used to blame it on the jet lag, the excitement, the anticipation.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Fri, Feb 09, 2001 at 05:28:24 (GMT)
From: Pat Conlon
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Jim, you fell asleep too?
Message:
I nearly didn't get K because I kept falling asleep when the mahatmas droned on. Their orations were utter drivel. I personally knew all the other 5 people in my K session (all part of a commune) and only two of us did not nod off at some time. Those two are still with the gooroo. The rest of sleepers walked.

The current PWKs (bless their cotton socks) were always mesmerized by the videos while I would doze off and snore until my falling sideways woke me up.

The PWKs who are left are a simple-minded lot, very nice and quite modest. I feel sorry that I criticized them so much. They are not the ones to criticize. They don't expect much out of life as you see from ELK's poets. Most of them find the Readers' Digest quite difficult to read.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sat, Feb 10, 2001 at 06:48:33 (GMT)
From: Francesca
Email: None
To: Pat Conlon
Subject: Someone else you know ...
Message:
almost didn't get K because he fell asleep in Satsang. My better half. The next instructor wasn't so heavy about it.
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Thurs, Feb 08, 2001 at 13:39:33 (GMT)
From: Scott T.
Email: None
To: Pat Conlon
Subject: 'In the beggning' as opposed to 'now'
Message:
Pat:

I used to have this thing about when he gave his 'in the beggning' speech and his finger would move like a bouncing ball down the line and at the end circle back to the 'beggning.' I just thought that must be incredibly profound and spent lots of acetylcholine trying to decipher what it meant. Now I undestand that he was saying, in effect: 'I don't ever expect to make any progress, or get to the point, and you shouldn't expect me to either.'

--Scott

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Thurs, Feb 08, 2001 at 11:48:47 (GMT)
From: Jean-Paul
Email: None
To: Pat Conlon
Subject: GM's simplistic communication style and us
Message:
Very funny. I understand now also why i was so bored listening to m (except in the beginning when i tried if knowledge an m would work for me). I never understood when he was speaking about the heart. This added more tensions. Whe m starts a subject, he never goes deeper and never develops it, then he starts another subject, the he makes stupid jokes, then he stops speaking, shuts his eyes, after a few seconds says with a voice from melodrama « it is in you », then again another subject without developing it. After he criticizes everybody, wife is his favorite target. Then the world is lost, what a chance we have to be in the presence of the master ! I saw a video last year. I was very happy to see clearly all the nonsense of his discourse and all his theatrical panoply.
I agree with you that people who still believe in this 'master' don’t like to think too much. M is a soporific.
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Thurs, Feb 08, 2001 at 08:06:35 (GMT)
From: ham
Email: None
To: Scott T.
Subject: But Scott take our natural intelligence
Message:
it's well known that cult members have above average intelligence on the IQ scale, how could we be that naive?
I just don't buy it that we were all emotionally damaged, less intelligent people are just as emotionally damaged from childhood but don't turn up in cults in anywhere near the same numbers.

Even if you mark it down as an oversensitivity to the pain of this world, which we were more conscious of because we think more than the average joe blow, then we gave more weight to our sensitivity and willingness to risk living a fantasy life with all it's inherent dangers, than face the pain square on.

Can't come up with any other theories that don't seem riddled with self-justification.

Have you seen a video recently of him talking?
I was still going to see one every couple of years for nearly a decade, trying to analyse how he got away with it, and it's painfully obvious he's not even very good at what he does, and the early talks, although I only read those, were no different, they make superman comics look positively grounded by comparison.

So something had to be going on, that escape from reality into fantasising wasn't just a gm thing, I think as a generation we were all acting in bad faith by treating life so cavalierly.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Thurs, Feb 08, 2001 at 14:08:14 (GMT)
From: Scott T.
Email: None
To: ham
Subject: The Unjust
Message:
Ham:

There was actually some halfway decent social science research done on DLM and it's members, though I can't quite recall the details. I believe that one interpretation had to do with the fulfillment of the adoloscent rebellion by adopting an alternative father figure. Personally, I don't think you have to go much further than Max Weber's concept of 'charismatic legitimacy.' The charismatic leader is, by definition, allowed to violate all the rules and expectations by virtue of his 'pre-rational powers.' These were invested by a combination of his exotic personality and the peculiar meditation technique for which this particular version claimed credit. Turns out that intelligent people are quite willing to surrender to charisma, and are even more predisposed. The Germans were the most highly educated nation on the planet. Martin Heidegger was the top philosopher in the world, and had been the protege of the Jewish Husserl... and at the time was cultivating a Jewish protege of his own who was later to become the president of Chicago University, and who wrote 'the book' on totalitarianism: Hannah Arendt. Lots of scientists and physicists got sucked in too, not just philosophers.

No, I think we're all susceptible because that's the way we're made. Even now, the right trigger could set us off. Not the same one mind you, but why would an erudite and gregarious figure be necessarily less likely to be evil? And it even serves a purpose. It gets us out of a deep rut created by rationality and routine, or what Weber called 'rationalization' (harnessing all resources and productivity toward predictable outcomes, while we are less able to apprehend and meet our own needs). There's no simple solution. It's a complex problem, and probably has a very complex solution, if any. Indeed the problem is, itself, a solution.

--Scott T.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Thurs, Feb 08, 2001 at 23:27:00 (GMT)
From: ham
Email: None
To: Scott T.
Subject: Maybe you're right
Message:
but I know for myself there was definitely bad faith, in the sense that I hung around for ages denying consciously the dissonce I was experiencing, and even more so bearing in mind how detacvhed from him I'd felt all the way pretty much.
I also still find it hard to believe that anyone thinks he was a good communicator, especially after they've left.
I also find it difficult to believe that even allowing for the charisma thing that our less conscious functions couldn't see how bogus his communication is, I'm sure that's one of the reasons we'd express the most outrageous 'faith' in him because we 'knew' on some level, especially in the later years when premies were not just interacting with other premies. Now I'm sure that's one of the reasons he filtered out all social interaction because that kept in seperate from, but that in itself causes dissonance, how can we not share stuff that is so crucial to us, in the end we are such social beings.

What I do find interesting is this present generation.
The debunking of anyone who starts getting above themselves is so immediate, think it's no accident he's dying on his feet in the west, hardly ANYONE will fall for that now, and even sports stars or pop icons who are revered are derided when they think of themselves as 'above' and start making wider social comment.
Very healthy.

The Weber stuff sounds interesting, but I hate reading sociology.
Maybe I ought to find a Weber for idiots books, of all the subject areas I've checked out, sociology gave me the greatest pain, which is a drag cause the ovewrlap with social psycholgy has been a key area of interest, mainly because I had such difficulty getting it.

Did you ever find your ability to interact socially with non-premies, or non-spiritual people affected by being a premie?

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Thurs, Feb 08, 2001 at 23:56:36 (GMT)
From: Scott T.
Email: None
To: ham
Subject: Maybe you're right
Message:
Ham:

The debunking of anyone who starts getting above themselves is so immediate, think it's no accident he's dying on his feet in the west, hardly ANYONE will fall for that now, and even sports stars or pop icons who are revered are derided when they think of themselves as 'above' and start making wider social comment.
Very healthy.

Sure, but it won't last. It's cyclical. The next era of vulnerability is about 30 years from now though. Barely enough time to figure it out a little.

Weber for dummies? Wish there were such a thing. His translator is even more impenetrable than he is. How about reading *The Protestant Ethic*? That's a comparitively light read, and includes most of the Weberian principles. Far less tedious than reading one of his textbook treatises.

Did you ever find your ability to interact socially with non-premies, or non-spiritual people affected by being a premie?

Apart from the fact that I was basically incoherent, you mean? My inability to communicate is ultimately what drove me away, not any sense that Maharaji was a fraud. I didn't come to that conclusion until long after. But I just *had* to get on the same level as other humans, or at least in the same universe. And I couldn't even communicate with *myself* very well. It was a survival threat, and I acted on it without really knowing why.

--Scott

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Fri, Feb 09, 2001 at 00:39:25 (GMT)
From: ham
Email: None
To: Scott T.
Subject: Maybe you're right
Message:
You see the vulnerability thing as cyclical?
Interesting, I've had a thing about 'cosmic' stuff on a cyclical basis.

If you look at major pop explosions over here, which are the best reflectors of zeitgeist/in the day social reality debates, 66, 77, 88, they've all started happening a couple of years before major sunspot activity.
In terms of innocence/openess/one love shit, 66 and 88 fit, 77 ie the punk period, was at the other end of the spectrum, but what I found interesting was the really mature way that the 88 crowd dealt with that 'one love' vibe, as soon as it started becoming 'spiritual' they switched tack, as in 'fast' and quite consciously.

Re the obviously longer term cycles you've looked at, is that a personal mapping, or other lit that you could point me toward? that I'm very interested in.

So yeah I do see the cyclical nature of it, but also see that the democritazation and anti-leader concept has been a very slow grower, overall, in the west for hundreds of years.

Interesting about the social stuff. I too left because of social issues, I was a good communicator, and quite happy with myself, or so I thought, but couldn't fathom at all where the rest of the humasn race was coming from on a motivation level. The further I went down that route, the further away I got from gm, so the social stuff got me out to, whereAs being critical of his incompetence didn't, curious huh.
But that was my point about bad faith, you can't keep that bottled down forever, at some point it has to break, as the ole cliche goes, 'getting real'.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Thurs, Feb 08, 2001 at 08:50:23 (GMT)
From: Pat Conlon
Email: None
To: ham
Subject: Our natural intelligence
Message:
All the intelligent premies have left. The PWKs I know are unimaginative, intellectually lazy and prefer not to lead an ''examined life.'' In other words they don't like thinking.
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Thurs, Feb 08, 2001 at 23:32:41 (GMT)
From: ham
Email: None
To: Pat Conlon
Subject: That's frightening
Message:
Yet on the emotional level that lila stuff is still going on bigtime in premies heads, no?
How can they not find themselves with some kind of mental health problems consequently, especially if they have been there for years.

I really didn't want to have to deal with that stuff either, put it off and delayed it for years because I was only interested in the experience, so instead of it being a rational process it burst out emotionally in not too pleasant a manner, couldn't be stopped.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Fri, Feb 09, 2001 at 06:47:55 (GMT)
From: Jethro
Email: None
To: ham
Subject: an EG of m's success in separating people
Message:
Not sure if I told you, but when I went to visit Glasdenbury(sp?), I stayed in this guesthouse run by a woman who is a Druid. After going there about 3 times, somehow m came up and it turned out that she was premie from some years before, but obviously no-longer a follower, but one of those who moved on because she said 'Wasn't it great when m said that we no longer need the master and we do whatever we feel 'cause we had the knowledge'(not verbatim, but you get the drift).I said 'Really, I must have missed that one'. I didn't pursue it with her because I wanted to take a trip up the Tor.
Anyway, when I got back in the evening, there were lots of people in the house, and me, being a nice sociable type went around chatting to people. So I am speaking to a 40-something guy and I happened to mention that I used to be in a cult. When I told him which cult he turned a beautiful crimson and guess what...he is a premie.
The point here is the woman running the guest house and this guy have been close friends for 10 years. Neither knew each other were premies, up until that day.

Eeeeer, I can't think of my finishing sentence, it's all in the title.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Fri, Feb 09, 2001 at 13:05:47 (GMT)
From: JTF
Email: None
To: Jethro
Subject: an EG of m's success in separating people
Message:
This is a great example of what rawat's current stategy is as well. I think of it as 'keeping everyone separated together in a bunch. With the new format of broadcasts/satsang(primarily in the home), it will be very difficult for the cult members to notice the continuing attrition. As someone else recently said, it is a cell system-(not to be confused with a sell system which it also is, I might add).
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Thurs, Feb 08, 2001 at 14:18:23 (GMT)
From: Scott T.
Email: None
To: Pat Conlon
Subject: Our natural intelligence
Message:
Pat:

Yeah, but Maharaji is an easy call. I shudder to think what might happen with someone more skilled and clever. Populism, for instance, is currently regarded with great disdain, but it's a cyclical thing. It'll be back. And I also predict that a militant left movement will emerge in the US in the near future, something we haven't seen for a long time.

--Scott

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Thurs, Feb 08, 2001 at 23:36:49 (GMT)
From: ham
Email: None
To: Scott T.
Subject: The anti-world banks eco crowd
Message:
look much more likely a route 'against' now I would have thought, especially as global warming kicks in increasingly, apart from other eco/big business/goverment collusion issues, of which there's no shortAge.
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Fri, Feb 09, 2001 at 00:09:37 (GMT)
From: Scott T.
Email: None
To: ham
Subject: The anti-world banks eco crowd
Message:
Ham:

It's partly due to that trend you feel is so healthy. The radical anarchist left is beginning to feel very alienated. No one takes them at all seriously, while everyone cowtows to the radical right, in a sense; afraid they might blow up another federal building. The traditional Marxist left has never been able to get a foothold in the US, but there's a version of the left that is basically anti-authority that fits much better with the American way of looking at things... and they could get a very determined following under the right conditions. And yes, the justification will undoubtedly be the environment. It's now the only salient cause the 'legitimate' left still has, or the only one that's sufficiently appealing that they can organize around it nationally.

--Scott

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Thurs, Feb 08, 2001 at 00:20:15 (GMT)
From: Moley
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: Front Row Center -- Oxnard
Message:
At the Oxnard program, first half, front row center seat was occupied by Monica. (Marolyn was not there.) Second half, front row center was occupied by Marolyn.
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Fri, Feb 09, 2001 at 00:32:22 (GMT)
From: salam
Email: None
To: Moley
Subject: what are you talking about?
Message:
was Marylon there or not?
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Fri, Feb 09, 2001 at 01:26:38 (GMT)
From: JHB
Email: None
To: salam
Subject: Read it again.....
Message:
Marolyn was there the first half, and wasn't the second half.

John.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Fri, Feb 09, 2001 at 19:04:09 (GMT)
From: Cynthia
Email: None
To: JHB
Subject: JHB, you read it again:::)))) (NT)
Message:
nt
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Fri, Feb 09, 2001 at 21:31:51 (GMT)
From: JHB
Email: None
To: Cynthia
Subject: OK - I got it the wrong way round:-((((((
Message:
ZZZ:-))))))))))
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Fri, Feb 09, 2001 at 14:53:39 (GMT)
From: salam
Email: None
To: JHB
Subject: Is that sharing?
Message:
I wonder which half each one of them wanted really, the front or the back?
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Thurs, Feb 08, 2001 at 00:03:16 (GMT)
From: Been There
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: MUST READ!
Message:

Under Brian's post 'New Journeys' down below is a fabulous journey by 'Babs'. You must read it (allow yourself a little time -- it's long). What a writer. Babs, you have a great future. Your writing is wonderful. Do publish! You'll be well read and well appreciated (no matter what the subject I think)! Thanks for sharing such a well written journey!
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Thurs, Feb 08, 2001 at 10:37:27 (GMT)
From: Patrick (formerly Anon)
Email: None
To: FA
Subject: To FA - A link to Journeys from here?
Message:
A direct link at the top of the forum page to the 'Journeys ' Index may be practical and helpful shortcut I think. Especially since there is now so much good stuff in there.
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Thurs, Feb 08, 2001 at 11:59:51 (GMT)
From: JHB
Email: None
To: Patrick (formerly Anon)
Subject: To FA - A link to Journeys from here?
Message:
There's lots of other good stuff to link to on this site. All the links are on www.ex-premie.org (which is linked above). I think to put them all here would be too cluttered, and to just put the journeys link here would discourage people from exploring the rest of the site.

Just my tuppence worth.

John.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Thurs, Feb 08, 2001 at 01:57:42 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Been There
Subject: I agree all the way (nt)
Message:
jjjjjj
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Wed, Feb 07, 2001 at 23:17:47 (GMT)
From: G
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: Bush and the Moonies, Scientologists (OT?)
Message:
Some info on Bush's ties with the Moonies:

George W. Bush and The Moonies

a little Quid Pro Quo?

also:

SCIENTOLOGISTS CLAIM BUSH WILL FUNNEL THEM FAITH-BASED CASH

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Thurs, Feb 08, 2001 at 16:29:11 (GMT)
From: G
Email: None
To: all
Subject: more
Message:
From A History Of The Unification Church...


Despite foreboding events and regulations, the San Francisco Day of Hope stop, according to Regional Director Paul Werner, was 'the greatest success since Madison Square Garden.' The December 7th kick-off banquet, again held at Benjamin Swig's Fairmont Hotel, brought out 1,160 San Franciscans. A letter of welcome from California Governor Ronald Reagan was read. Proclamations were announced from San Francisco, Berkeley, Oakland, San Leandro, Concord, Burlingame, San Mateo, Stockton, Menlo Park, and Hayward. The city of Oakland proclaimed December 9th as Sun Myung Moon Day and presented him with a tie tack and cuff links in the shape of an oak tree. 350 Rev. Moon noted, 'I never expected such a heart-warming welcome in this golden state.' 351

From The Moonies


In 1977 Congressman Donald Frazer launched an investigation into Moon's background. The House Committee report states that it uncovered evidence that the Moon organization had systematically violated U.S. tax, immigration, banking, currency and foreign agent registration laws. The report indicates that Moon was paid by the Korean CIA to stage demonstrations at the United Nations and run pro-South Korean propaganda efforts. The investigator for the report commented, 'We determined that their primary interest, at least in the U.S. at that time, was not religious at all, but was political, it was an attempt to gain power, influence and authority.' But after the inauguration of President Ronald Reagan all investigations were halted. Moon was Vice President George Bush's guest at the inauguration and was a major financial contributor to the Washington conservative establishment.

See also

Bush and the Moonies from Son of Bush

and

Dark Side of Rev. Moon: Hooking George Bush

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Thurs, Feb 08, 2001 at 07:29:00 (GMT)
From: Scott T.
Email: None
To: G
Subject: Bush and the Moonies, Scientologists (OT?)
Message:
G:

Well, they own the Washington Times so I guess they had a bit more foresight than Maha. Sort of scary that the conservative establishment accepts the Washington Times as the completely mainstream rival to the Post. Odd how they worked that out.

--Scott

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Wed, Feb 07, 2001 at 23:46:41 (GMT)
From: mark
Email: None
To: G
Subject: can M get federal funding now
Message:
Does M have registered church status in the USA and if so does that mean he will qualify for Federal funding under the new religious group based welfare funding arrangements that Bush is setting up?

This arrangement which is succesful in Boston will see the Federal government funding churches with billions on the basis that they are more efficient at getting the money to where its really needed than is the government.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Thurs, Feb 08, 2001 at 00:00:07 (GMT)
From: JHB
Email: None
To: mark
Subject: In theory - EV is a church
Message:
In the US, EV is simply a change of name from DLM which was and is registered as a church. FYI in the UK EV is a different organisation from DLM which was closed. Both were registered charities. Different names - same purpose - non-payment of tax.

John.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Thurs, Feb 08, 2001 at 00:17:12 (GMT)
From: mark
Email: None
To: JHB
Subject: who will benefit from the funds
Message:
Hypothetically, if he qualifies for funds, will they go to

a) Premies in need
b) Aspirants in need
c) Californians in need
d) All of the above
e) None of the above

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Thurs, Feb 08, 2001 at 07:15:18 (GMT)
From: JHB
Email: None
To: mark
Subject: who will benefit from the funds
Message:
The answer is (c) but in the singular:-)

John.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Wed, Feb 07, 2001 at 23:28:09 (GMT)
From: Joe
Email: None
To: G
Subject: NYT Article Re Scientologists (OT?)
Message:
A couple of days ago the New York Times had an article saying that Scientology had set up a couple of subsidiaries that intend to funnel in money if Bush's 'faith-based' charities initiative goes through.

Also, I was reading some interesting background that Scientology began lobbying to the tune of millions of dollars during Bush the Elder's administration, and on into the Clinton administration, until it was able to get 'church' status, saving it millions of dollars in taxes.

BTW, Scientology is NOT a religion, it's a therapy-based cult.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Thurs, Feb 08, 2001 at 07:43:02 (GMT)
From: Scott T.
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: NYT Article Re Scientologists (OT?)
Message:
Joe:

Not a religion? What's the antithesis of 'MEST?' The whole point of the therapy is to escape MEST, and there's a whole cosmology that goes back to the very beginning of time. My friend Pat Cox knew Ron, and had the whole collection of the 'secret' books, that sold for tens of thousands of dollars, including the legendary dictionary. Very interesting reading. I'd say it was more like a therapy-based religious cult; or a religiously based therapy cult. Something like that. Some time I'll tell you about the organ-grinder torture of the Arkadians. Have you checked your image collection lately?

There was one definition in the dictionary that was obviously not religious. 'Airport: A body of land surrounded by high voltage tension wire.'

--Scott

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Thurs, Feb 08, 2001 at 19:23:02 (GMT)
From: Joe
Email: None
To: Scott T.
Subject: NYT Article Re Scientologists (OT?)
Message:
I was just reading the new Tourish/Wohlford book on political cults. (Called 'On the Edge') According to their categories, Scientology is really a therapy cult and not a religious one, but I assume there is some overlap. It's a fascinating book by the way, with a lot of discussion of the Trotskyite cults in the US and the UK, a lot about LaRouche and Falani and such. It was helpful to me also because the definition of 'cult' is similar to the way I would define it, and applies to both a religious cult like Maharaji and supposedly secular cults like the Trotskyites.
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Fri, Feb 09, 2001 at 00:21:09 (GMT)
From: Scott T.
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: NYT Article Re Scientologists (OT?)
Message:
Joe:

Sounds very interesting. I'll mention it to Marty. As you know, he was a Trotskyite (in a group called the 'Campbellites'). In fact, Trotsky was the real reason behind the establishment of the Neo-Conservative movement at NY City College. They were a cell of Marxists who became disillusioned when Trotsky's writings were translated in the 1950s. I didn't know there were *contemporary* Trotskyites. Marty would find that very interesting. He's also been considering an update or second volume of 'The Politics of Unreason' which has a very powerful typology of radical groups, but only went up to WWII I think. It needs a second volume.

--Scott

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Thurs, Feb 08, 2001 at 03:40:35 (GMT)
From: Susan
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: NYT Article Re Scientologists (OT?) no not at all
Message:
I am sure cults of all descriptions are salivating at the proposal. I am shocked if it is true that Bush senior is taking Moonie money, that is horrible.

We really ought to get some sort of coalition going of ex cult members of all different cults to lobby somehow against this. The government will not have a leg to stand on if it starts to pick and choose among cults and religions. If the Baptists can get the bucks to feed the poor so can the Krsihnas.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Thurs, Feb 08, 2001 at 15:20:00 (GMT)
From: Scott T.
Email: None
To: Susan
Subject: Protestant sectarianism (ot)
Message:
Susan:

Traditionally the protestant sects in the US (who were the 'dissenters' in European church-dominated societies) have been anti-government, and have distrusted the state. They saw the state as the oppressor. They have upheld the notion of the separation of church and state, until recently. They have always been very moralistic, but since they've been dominant in the US since before the Revolution they've never needed the church-state link in order to promote their moralism. In the last several decades they've become aware that they are no longer dominant, and may even be in the minority. They now seek to establish the church-state link primarily because they sense that they need protection.

No, they are never going to allow the cults to get any piece of *their* pie, you can bet on that. I don't know what's up with the Moonies though. They make every attempt to 'look like' a traditional protestant sect, so that they have a kind of stealth strategy. It seems to be working for the moment, but could become a serious embarassment to the religious right. There may be an agreement to keep them at arms length. Would make a great piece of research though. I can see the 2 by 2 matrices already.

--Scott

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Thurs, Feb 08, 2001 at 18:17:52 (GMT)
From: Susan
Email: None
To: Scott T.
Subject: Protestant sectarianism (ot)
Message:
Scott,

Again, your posts are fascinating to me.

I can see in round one, if the Bush proposal goes through, that the bucks might end up in the hands of only Catholic, Jewish and mainstream Protestant charities. But, I would think a cult would have a damn good lawsuit if they applied for this funding, and ran a similar charity to the aforemetioned religions, and were denied funding based on being a 'cult'. In fact, I am not sure I am comfortable with the government having any power to pick and choose which religions are 'good' and which are cults. It seems like what happened in China. I could see the ACLU getting involved and defending the Khrishna's or Moonie's or Scientologists, the scary thing is, they might not even be wrong to get involved. That is why I thing it is a horrendous proposition. As you know, that is coming from one of the few, only ?, people here that likes Bush. But if this Moonie connection is true, I may change my mind.

This reminds me of the White Supremicasts having the 'right' to march in Skokie.

Scary stuff, and we don't need to be opening the door to it.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Thurs, Feb 08, 2001 at 11:52:01 (GMT)
From: Jerry
Email: None
To: Susan
Subject: NYT Article Re Scientologists (OT?) no not at all
Message:
I am shocked if it is true that Bush senior is taking Moonie money, that is horrible.

That article came out of the National Examiner, not exactly the most reliable source of breaking news. It's right up their with the Globe, Star Magazine, and a bunch of other sensationalist rags. As for Scientology, though, yeah, why wouldn't they qualify for federal funds if Bush succeeds in his efforts to privatize certain social programs? It would be discrimination if they didn't.

I just wonder what kind of laws are going to be put into effect to prevent these organizations from imposing their beliefs on people. There's also reason to believe there would be a high rate of discrimination in hiring practices by religious groups.

But if you look at it realistically, I don't think Scientology has a history of caring for the poor, unlike Catholic Charities and groups like that, so it would look a little suspicious if, suddenly, they demanded to be privy to such funds if they have no history or experience in serving the public in a manner those funds would be earmarked for.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Thurs, Feb 08, 2001 at 19:08:39 (GMT)
From: Francesca
Email: None
To: Jerry
Subject: And what kind of audits will these groups ...
Message:
... be subject to for walking away with public money. Probably not much, I would imagine. Gold toilet seats for all poo bahs!

When you look at it, this will probably amount to an elaborate shell game. Even if they do get audited, and use the money for the proper purposes, some of these churches ALREADY raise money and provide services to the poor. Who is to say that a church's current level of funding for its programs will be maintained in order to receive federal funding for programs? Will the federal money guarantee added or enhanced services? Probably not.

They will be able to slack off on fundraising or find more creative ways to use money that would have funded the programs for the poor (the soft money), and use the federal funds to do what they were already doing with donations. Net result? No higher level of services to the poor.

But it will possibly give those who hound these churches and cults an extra tool--keeping them honest re the federal funds. And there is another angle. Some churches fear the funding. I read a recent editorial by a Catholic priest who says that the message of relgions could be bent or tempered to political or governmental will in order to receive the funds. Economic concerns would step in, and a church's message would be geared to get maximum funding, and not based on the 'truths' that are the core tenets of the church.

I could see EV getting in big trouble if they ever got funding.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Wed, Feb 07, 2001 at 22:18:55 (GMT)
From: Suzanne
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: Maharaji's abuses
Message:
I was interested in what people were saying about Maharaji being abusive. I felt he was abusive in the way he spoke to us, quite often. Like some were saying, he would yell and scream, be very abusive and then be all soft and lovey dovey. It was very manipulative because it made you feel he was rejecting you and then letting you back in. He was abusive, and then he made up. Like the 'cycle of abuse' that so many abusers utilize in domestic relationships?

But I also heard Maharaji has done a lot of cruel things to people, that he seemed to think were jokes. He seemed to be particularly cruel to Bahari Singh. Wasn't Bahari kind of Maharaji's guardian, or valet or something when Maharaji was younger?

I heard that he made Bahari Singh eat dog shit.

He made Bahari Singh sit in a tub full of water on the roof of the Kansas City ashram in the middle of winter, and would often hit him with sticks, and dump freezing and boiling water on him.

I heard he made Danny Blood put on a suit used to train dogs and then shot a gun at him. I heard Danny say this himself when he came through my community one time.

I heard he used to hit his Indian devotees with sticks, apparently emulating his father who had done the same thing.

He made two premies sit under a blanket and then sat on top of them and had his picture taken. This was later on the cover of 'And It Is Divine.'

Maharaji would demand that certain projects be undertaken that required premies to work day and night, without the slightest care as to their welfare, or perhaps being intentionally abusive. Friends I knew who worked at DECA, said that he often did this, and premies were always expected to comply. Some who are now ex-premies say it was intentional. Maharaji would get angry for some reason, and then take it out on the premies doing service.

I remember one program in Denver, Maharaji was really upset about the way the stage looked. He said it looked like a 'toilet bowl' and yelled at the coordinators of the program for about an hour after it was all over. They looked really freaked afterwards.

I have read here that Maharaji was really abusive to some of the initiator candidates in the Initiator Training Programs. I read where a few of them admitted later that they contemplated suicide because of the way he yelled at and abused them.

Have any of you heard things like this?

Michael Dettmers, do you know of any of this?

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sat, Feb 10, 2001 at 13:39:43 (GMT)
From: kap
Email: None
To: Suzanne
Subject: Maharaji's abuses
Message:
I remember Mahatma Rajaswar showing me holes in the back of his neck where Rawat had shot pellets from a powerfull airgun very very deep into his neck .I saw at least seven deep holes were in his neck .I remember he had to have a sister dig them out with twizers.I would tell more but this site is too heavily censored by expremies who still dont want to hear all the truth about rawat.
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Thurs, Feb 08, 2001 at 11:04:35 (GMT)
From: AJW
Email: None
To: Suzanne
Subject: Maharaji's abuses
Message:
Hi Suzanne,

He once suggested I electrocute myself on an electric fire, but I politely refused.

Anth who wasn't totally surrendered.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Fri, Feb 09, 2001 at 13:45:07 (GMT)
From: Steve Quint
Email: the_avenger55@hotmail.com
To: AJW
Subject: Maharaji's abuses
Message:
I find your story extremely shocking, Anth. If this were early October of last year when I started reading and posting here, I might not have believed it. You've reported earlier that in your opinion, 'the kids are alright'. Does this story jibe with that other statement.

Also, how long did you hang around the family after this event occurred did you hang around the wholly holey holy family? How long did you go to events after this occurred.

Steve the curious, nosey, but keeping his metal objects away from AC/DC

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Fri, Feb 09, 2001 at 14:31:17 (GMT)
From: AJW
Email: None
To: Steve Quint
Subject: Maharaji's abuses
Message:
Hi Steve,

I guess this must have been about 20 years ago. I taught the children for about two and a half years, tailing off towards the end, as Susan in Malibu spent more time with them.

I was invited to parties etc, for a few years afterwards. The last one I went to was about five years ago, in Malibu. I wrote about it on the forum I think.

I explained his strange request to myself by saying, 'He was joking.' which he probably was. It wasn't a big deal.

I'm way out of touch with the children nowadays. They have grown up now, but when they were small, I had a good relationship with them.

Anth the screwdriver.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Fri, Feb 09, 2001 at 13:51:59 (GMT)
From: Steve Quint
Email: the_avenger55@hotmail.com
To: Steve Quint
Subject: Maharaji's abuses
Message:
Please pardon the English of the above post. I don't write well when I'm shaking from shock. My hair is standing on end. Something like this.
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Thurs, Feb 08, 2001 at 19:35:51 (GMT)
From: Joe
Email: None
To: AJW
Subject: Can you elaborate? (nt)
Message:
nt
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Fri, Feb 09, 2001 at 10:29:33 (GMT)
From: AJW
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: My brush with death at the Residence.
Message:
Hi Joe,

It wasn't a big deal really. I was sitting on the floor in the classroom with Daya. Maharaji came in and sat down with us. Daya, who must have been about three, picked up a screwdriver, and started poking at an electric fire with it, that was on. It was obviously extremely dangerous. I expected her dad to tell her to stop, but he didn't. So I did. I said something like, 'Daya, don't do that. You could get an electric shock and die.' I think I took the screwdriver off her.

The Maharaji said something like, 'You stick it in the fire Anth and show her what you mean.'

I declined.

Writing that story reminded me of another life and death incident involving Daya. I'd been invited over to their house in Miami, and was hanging out around a small pool somewhere. A 'sister' was cleaning the pool. Daya, again around 3 years old, tripped on something and fell into the pool. I heard a splash, looked around, and saw her on her back, on the bottom of the pool. I jumped in, fully clothed, and got her out. I carried her over to the house and somebody took her off me. I stood there, completely soaked from head to foot. Someone said, 'I guess you need a lift home. They dropped me off at the place where I was staying. But my friends were out and I didn't have a key. So I was left on the pavement, dripping wet.

Ah well, that's showbiz.

Anth the drip drip drip

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Fri, Feb 09, 2001 at 17:13:49 (GMT)
From: Steve Quint
Email: the_avenger55@hotmail.com
To: AJW
Subject: My brush with death at the Residence.
Message:
He once suggested I electrocute myself on an electric fire, but I politely refused.

My brush with death at the Residence.

It wasn't a big deal really. I was sitting on the floor in the classroom with Daya. Maharaji came in and sat down with us. Daya, who must have been about three, picked up a screwdriver, and started poking at an electric fire with it, that was on. It was obviously extremely dangerous. I expected her dad to tell her to stop, but he didn't. So I did. I said something like, 'Daya, don't do that. You could get an electric shock and die.' I think I took the screwdriver off her.

The Maharaji said something like, 'You stick it in the fire Anth and show her what you mean.'

Is it my imagination, Anth, or are you playing mind games?

I find this very disturbing.

Steve

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Fri, Feb 09, 2001 at 20:18:01 (GMT)
From: AJW
Email: None
To: Steve Quint
Subject: My brush with death at the Residence.
Message:
Steve,

I'm not trying to play any mind games.

He did suggest I stick the screwdriver into the fire. If I had done what he said I would have electrocuted myself.

However, my interpretation was that he was making a joke. I don't think he genuinely wanted me to electrocute myself.

Sorry if I caused confusion. I try to be sensationalistic and entertaining sometimes. But I didn't make any of it up.

Anth the Scandal Scandal Read All About It.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Fri, Feb 09, 2001 at 21:51:57 (GMT)
From: Steve Quint
Email: the_avenger55@hotmail.com
To: AJW
Subject: My brush with death at the Residence.
Message:
You may not be trying to play mind games but you're doing a good job of it anyway.

Some of the things you've written in this context.

My brush with death at the Residence.

He once suggested I electrocute myself on an electric fire, but I politely refused.

It wasn't a big deal really.

Writing that story reminded me of another life and death incident involving Daya.

You're a teacher, Anth, and I expect a reponsible person. You know that a large part of the forum revolves around stories from people who have been close to m. I'm serious when I say that I find this disturbing. If you tell a story with a moral attached please stick with it or think before you post.

Steve

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sat, Feb 10, 2001 at 11:24:24 (GMT)
From: AJW
Email: None
To: Steve Quint
Subject: I take your point Steve
Message:
See if I got it right.

When I write, I deliberately try to manipulate the reader's emotions. Particularly, in this example, I teased you by saying Captain Rawat told me to electrocute myself. Then kind of let you down by saying I thought he was joking.

You don't like to have your emotions manipulated by somebody in this way. You just want the writer to give you information, not to fuck around with your feelings. This is what you mean by me playing mind games.

Here's my defense.

Steve, I'm a writer. This has been my job for about 20 years. Often I do simply write down information.

But I do another kind of writing too, where the aim is to manipulate the reader's emotions. This is the purpose of a novel, or a film, or a poem. It's also a function of advertising and political propaganda.

Captain Rawat did ask me to electrocute myself. I thought he was joking. I don't think he wanted me to kill myself, in his house, on the floor, in front of his daughter. He ain't that crazy Steve. He'd at least have had Daya leave the room first.

Maybe if I'd written it for a newspaper, the editor would have picked up on it like you did, and make me rewrite it or something. But, as you know, this is the Forum where all sorts of shit flows by from time to time.

Anth the unedited imperfect sensational propagandist

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Thurs, Feb 08, 2001 at 17:12:22 (GMT)
From: Jethro
Email: None
To: AJW
Subject: Anth, you obviously didn't have any faith!(nt)
Message:
nt
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Thurs, Feb 08, 2001 at 04:26:14 (GMT)
From: Susan
Email: None
To: Suzanne
Subject: Michael Dettmers,Suzanne asked for comment above
Message:
you in the above post.
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Thurs, Feb 08, 2001 at 00:31:42 (GMT)
From: Joy
Email: None
To: Suzanne
Subject: Maharaji's abuses
Message:
Apparently he first fed a lot of ex-lax to the people he sat on under the blanket when they took that And It Is Divine cover photo. He told them it was chocolate and made them eat it. Then got them under that blanket and sat on top for ages and ages. Postie posted about this below, I believe.

I remember the shouting and tirades in the ashram meetings also. But I don't think I was too concerned at the time since I also had a verbally abusive father who used to fly off the handle and get angry for no reason also, so I guess I thought it was normal at the time. I know better now.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Thurs, Feb 08, 2001 at 01:41:25 (GMT)
From: Postie
Email: None
To: Joy
Subject: Gary Gerrard and Milky were under the blanket
Message:
My Ex-Lax prasad was before India trip.
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Thurs, Feb 08, 2001 at 02:01:57 (GMT)
From: Jethro
Email: None
To: Postie
Subject: Gary Gerrard's broken nose
Message:
prempal. aka maharaji, broke Gary Gerrard's nose with a stick. When gary cried or complained or winched, prempal said 'Would you rather I wouldn't touch you?'. The impliocation was that he(gary) should feel privilaged that he had been touched by the Lord.
(As told by Ron Geaves to Jethro Cadbury(formeley Eddie Fisher) when Jethro just became premie. Ron was teaching Eddie about devotion.
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Wed, Feb 07, 2001 at 23:50:11 (GMT)
From: Bin Liner
Email: None
To: Suzanne
Subject: Bihari Singh
Message:
I heard he was a dacoit (bandit) before he saw the light.

I've no idea whether or not this is true .

I found myself standing next to him once at a urinal during a programme.

Very small geezer with a beady eye , & a strong , 'do not fuck with me', vibe .

If HE ever turns , Rawat will have to spend all his dough on security , is my guess.


Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sat, Feb 10, 2001 at 13:53:05 (GMT)
From: kap
Email: None
To: Bin Liner
Subject: Bihari Singh
Message:
I was told he was a muger in india and had killed 21 people.The fact that (the lord of the universe) would hang out with such a cut throat was one of the things that first caused me to question rawat.
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Thurs, Feb 08, 2001 at 16:15:28 (GMT)
From: Marianne
Email: delores@gofree.indigo.ie
To: Bin Liner
Subject: Bihari Singh got pied by M
Message:
At his birthday party on the Queen Mary in Long Beach, December 1974, M threw a pie in Bihari Singh's face. I have pictures of it.

It seemed very strange when he did it.

At least Fakiranand was not around.

Bin, email me, please.

Marianne

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Thurs, Feb 08, 2001 at 00:15:44 (GMT)
From: Francesca
Email: None
To: Bin Liner
Subject: Bihari Singh
Message:
So I heard as well. I saw a public television special several years ago on Buddhism and the narrator went through the state of Bihar on a train. He interviewed several people about what a rough place the Bihar state is, and how the bandits in that area sometimes waylay the trains.

He was around Bhole Ji's band because when the family broke up, he stayed with Bhole Ji, Mata Ji and Bal Bhagwan Ji. I liked him but he definitely was a character. I don't know where he went but I assume with Satpal.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Thurs, Feb 08, 2001 at 00:27:37 (GMT)
From: Joe
Email: None
To: Francesca
Subject: Bihari Singh
Message:
I understand Bihari Singh went with BBJ and Mata Ji, but when I was CC in Miami, in 1979 or 1980 Bihari Singh 'showed up' in Miami and wanted to see Maharaji. Maharaji refused to see him, and it was a delicate situation because we weren't supposed to give him housing through Elan Vital (I'm not sure why.) He looked really lost, and was kind of stranded in Miami with no money.

I got Bihari Singh a place to stay with an East Indian premie family in South Miami, the Chatterjees. I recall Bihari hanging around the ashrams, and I think he tried to go to the residence. I don't know if Maharaji ever saw him or not. I can't recall what happened to him.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Fri, Feb 09, 2001 at 08:29:48 (GMT)
From: chr
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: Bihari Singh
Message:
Hi Joe,
Maharaji did see Bihari, but never let him do security around him again. He asked for him to be looked after at Kissimee 79 and made him room with a rather violent premie called Jamie, to keep Jamie under control. Later he had Jamie stay with Bihari again at the Broadripple.
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Thurs, Feb 08, 2001 at 11:26:37 (GMT)
From: DV
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: Bihari roomed with me at the Broad Ripple in 79-80
Message:
a short time. I remember him having some sort of mild heart attack during a program which he told me about that night at about 3. Last I heard (a few years ago) he was hanging around Malibu.
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Thurs, Feb 08, 2001 at 03:03:14 (GMT)
From: Patrick Conlon
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: Bihari Singh
Message:
I was told that Bihari Singh had been in prison for murder and had become Shri Hans' premie when he got out. Shri H made him Prempals' bodyguard.

He did indeed leave Prempal and go with Satpal and Mata Ji only to be rejected by them. He then returned to Prempal but was never taken back into the inner circle and wandered on the periphery.

Right up until the last event I went to (Long Beach 96) I used to always see Bihari. In real life a small man (looked bigger in the pics standing next Prempal) with a mischievous grin. His few strands of grey hair were amateurly dyed red-brown like henna. He actually was a lot like a friendly puppy.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Thurs, Feb 08, 2001 at 03:36:53 (GMT)
From: Susan
Email: None
To: Patrick Conlon
Subject: Bihari Singh
Message:
I was told that Bihari Singh had been in prison for murder and had become Shri Hans' premie when he got out

I have this feeling sometimes that becoming a Mahatma was Rawat's ( apparently both Sr. and Jr.s ) version of the Mariel boatlift. We have so many reports of criminal behavior of so many Mahatmas that I truly wonder our vision of these supposedly normal Indian citizens becoming smitten with knowledge was pure myth of DLM's creation. I think they were the misfits and sociopaths of Indian society looking for a way out and a place to hide.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sat, Feb 10, 2001 at 14:07:23 (GMT)
From: kap
Email: None
To: Susan
Subject: Bihari Singh
Message:
Yes the Mahatmas would have to be tough .Remember DLM mahatmas were going arround India telling people Rawat was God.a big step up the believability ladder from the normal Guru as a Realised soul.Also this declairation of Rawat being the supreme is enough to get one killed by any normal Hindu.
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Thurs, Feb 08, 2001 at 04:42:39 (GMT)
From: Patrick Conlon
Email: None
To: Susan
Subject: Susan, Inidan mahatmas
Message:
I only ever met a few mahatmas whom I regarded as a normal human beings. All the others ranged from harmless eccentrics all the way to some whom I felt were sociopaths and would not have felt safe with alone. There were some who were obviously scum of the earth who had been elevated way beyond what their status would have been in an Indian context.

Some of them actually terrified me. I felt that many were such low beings that I would not have given them a second look on the street but of course we were supposed to respect and trust them. I know I'm a snob but some of these guys really were lower than the lowest.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sat, Feb 10, 2001 at 14:16:50 (GMT)
From: kap
Email: None
To: Patrick Conlon
Subject: Susan, Inidan mahatmas
Message:
Yes i remember two very short Mahatmas in Denver who wanted to kill me even after Rawat gave Agya to let me do service to absolve myself from cursing him at a satsang in San Francisco.The first Sansang i attended after entering Denver two Mahatmas got on the phone and begged Rawat for permission to kill me. They were actually shaking with emotion and i had to leave the hall immediately .Do to heavy censorship on this site by politically correct management I can not tell all details.
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sat, Feb 10, 2001 at 16:34:19 (GMT)
From: cq
Email: None
To: kap
Subject: kap, why do all these guys want to kill you? (nt)
Message:
huh?
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Thurs, Feb 08, 2001 at 01:49:20 (GMT)
From: Postie
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: Bihari Singh
Message:
Bihari Singh briefly went with Mata Ji / Bal Bhagwan Ji faction but, as I recall it, almost immediately came back to GMJ's camp only to be banished. When he came to Miami, he ended up working for Joe Anctil's bus company Empire Bus Lines. He was in Long Beach in about 1997. Very intense, very friendly. As far as I know M never forgave him which is a major tragedy. I mean Bihari is the guy holding GMJ as a baby and was his body guard for years.

When you think of it, what ever happened to all of the other body guards and residence people? Marino Amico, Steve Braband, for example.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Thurs, Feb 08, 2001 at 03:32:02 (GMT)
From: Curious George
Email: None
To: Postie
Subject: Bihari Singh
Message:
Is Bihari Singh the guy with the very large moustache and smile?

I met him in Miami once and he was very proud of his photo Album lots of pictures of him with m's father & m.

What didn't m ever forgive him for???

Curious George

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Thurs, Feb 08, 2001 at 04:59:23 (GMT)
From: Patrick Conlon
Email: None
To: Curious George
Subject: Bihari Singh's mustache
Message:
Yes, that's him. M never forgave him for going over to the Satpal team for a while.
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Thurs, Feb 08, 2001 at 07:54:20 (GMT)
From: Jethro
Email: None
To: Patrick Conlon
Subject: True Patrick, but he did forgive...
Message:
(guru)charanand for going with the holy mother and satpal for a few months.

The way I heard it, when the split happened, g-c was obviously in confusion, so prempal beingthe all-knowing and compassionate lord told g-c to go to mataji. G-c went there and cleared his doubts.

I heard g-c talk about this oncw when he said that those months away with bbj amd mataji were the only time in his life when he felt unhappiness.

Wow, isn't, charanand a wonderful example of a devotee!!!

Jethro

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Thurs, Feb 08, 2001 at 17:21:17 (GMT)
From: Francesca
Email: None
To: Jethro
Subject: I was around Charanand when the split happened
Message:
because I had just joined the band. He seemed a bit lost, off his usual brightness, and went through hell.

He had agya from Shri Hans to never leave Mata Ji, and he had agya from Prem Pal to stay away from her.

He made his choice, and agya stinks!

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Thurs, Feb 08, 2001 at 08:07:33 (GMT)
From: Pat Conlon
Email: None
To: Jethro
Subject: Jethro, I had forgotten about that
Message:
But he probably wouldn't have forgiven GC if GC had made the break without consulting him.

I never understood GC - one of the few mahatmas who did not seem insane to me, peculiar yes but not nuts.

The last time I saw hGC in 96 I was stunned that he did not seem to be glowing as I had always perceived him. He was gossiping with the rest of the Malibu Mafia outside the LB conference center and looked so ordinary but that could have been because I was no longer viewing him with the eyes of a servant of a servant of the lord.

Beauty (and divinity) is definitely in the eyes of the beholder.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Thurs, Feb 08, 2001 at 16:35:39 (GMT)
From: Joe
Email: None
To: Pat Conlon
Subject: Gurucharanand
Message:
Gurucharanand fit the role of the saintly Mahatma perfectly, at least the role that we Westerners expected. He was also a somewhat better speaker than the other Mahatmas, especially blabbing a couple hours of Hindu mythology in 'satsang.'

But he was a real liar. He later admitted he just made stuff up to make Maharaji appear more divine, and, essentially, to pad his own nest. Then, of course, he was carrying on a sexual affair with a premie during the time he was supposed to be a celibate saint. Of course, he wasn't the only Mahatma to do that, and was just following what Maharaji was doing as an example.

He also wasn't as humble as he appeared when it came to his personal comforts. I remember him screaming at a housemother who had the gall to give him carrot juice which had been made without peeling the carrots first. The fact that the carrot skin had all the vitamins did not impress him.

But GC should be most condemned to attempting to 'sing' in that
'Jester' band. God he was awful, and a terrible ham.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Fri, Feb 09, 2001 at 10:54:43 (GMT)
From: Jethro
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: Gurucharanand
Message:
Hi Joe

Charanand once yelled at me for bringing him tap water instead of that evian-bottled water.(Kensington new town hall, circa 1979)
I told him to go get it himself.
I always believed that m was the only one to be honoured.

What a ripoff merchant he is.

I don't think he liked me because he once said to me that not all people needed GMJ, and if they didn't they shouldn't be around.

Jethro

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Fri, Feb 09, 2001 at 08:35:18 (GMT)
From: chr
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: Gurucharanand
Message:
I was in Ashrams with Gurucharanand several times. I must admit I never found him abusive. He did lead a rather cushy lifestyle.
He spent most of his time singing Bhajans with his harmonium, playing tennis and watching TV. He would start singing at about 5.30 am, very loudly. The neighbours complained and the rumours went round that the house housed some weird Eastern cult.
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Fri, Feb 09, 2001 at 16:57:01 (GMT)
From: Joe
Email: None
To: chr
Subject: Oh yes, the infamous Jamie
Message:
He was nuts and could be violent. Can't remember exactly why he was around. Most people stayed away from him whenever possible. But Miami was full of premies with severe mental problems, and also lots and lots of drugs.
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Fri, Feb 09, 2001 at 17:39:19 (GMT)
From: Francesca
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: Oh yes, the infamous Jamie
Message:
He was in the Castro Astro house, my first premie house in SF in 1973. He wasn't in full bloom yet, but he was getting there and was rather strange.

Later when I did security at large program I found out he had moved to Miami and was one the bongo list for doing all sorts of strange (and sometimes) violent things.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Thurs, Feb 08, 2001 at 18:31:19 (GMT)
From: Ian Dury
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: Gurucharanand's comfort
Message:
I remember when we had to move the television from the ashram satsang hall (which was ONLY used for M's videos)upstairs to Gurucharanand's room so he could watch the Wimbleton Tennis matches, which were very blissful indeed.

Later, when everyone in the house left for a weekend retreat (I stayed behind as the only person with a paying job, working the weekend), I watched 'The Rockford Files' on that sacred TV, and then felt very guilty about it. I doubt if Gurucharanand did.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Thurs, Feb 08, 2001 at 14:52:47 (GMT)
From: Susan
Email: None
To: Pat Conlon
Subject: I agree
Message:
I had little interaction with him but he did seem like he had a bit of sanity the other mahatmas lacked, though I have heard that he struggled with depression, which only makes him seem even more human to me.
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Fri, Feb 09, 2001 at 19:58:02 (GMT)
From: Curious George
Email: None
To: Susan
Subject: Creature Comforts
Message:
I think when it gets down to it it's all about survival. If telling a few Hindhu mythicological stories is what it takes to pay the rent for this ex-mahatma then this is what he will do. I suppose m pays his rent still.

I must admit he has become rather used to creture comforts on a grand scale compare to hbis early days in west Kensington when he really appealed to our unmaterialistic ideals.

These days he does demand things from premies (monkey see monkey do) other western Instructors now and have bee for a while following suit.

Charanand demands particular food and vitamins as well as golf courses like the one Tiger Woods plays on, expensive golf equipment and tennis courts and raquets. Talking about raquets it's all a bloody racket!

C.G.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Thurs, Feb 08, 2001 at 02:12:21 (GMT)
From: Monmot
Email: None
To: Postie
Subject: Marino et al.
Message:
Last I heard, Marino was working for the telephone company in Phoenix, or some city, in Arizona. Braband still lives in So. Cal. He's married now with a kid; I've seen his wife on the local access community cable hosting a program as a psychic.

I did a fair amount of service with/for Marino. I liked him a lot. He was always an extremely nice guy toward me--down to earth, serious but with a nice sense of humor. I have fond memories of Marino (actually I had a slight crush on him--which was easy to do with someone who treated people with respect).

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Wed, Feb 07, 2001 at 23:46:40 (GMT)
From: Francesca
Email: None
To: Suzanne
Subject: such as 'suck the rat!'
Message:
Supposedly he once buried John Hampton alive as a 'joke.'

Poured a whole bunch of motor oil and crap in Kathy Sullivan's (Pranam Bai's) hair (she told me, so I know it's true). I think he also used some kind of file or rasp on her teeth, but I can't remember now. I really liked Kathy, but I don't know where she is now. I think she left the cult quite a while ago, but that's just what I heard.

The premies that were under the sheet for the centerfold of and it is divine were given ex-lax and told to stay still. I believe I heard this from Milky Cole, if I'm not mistaken, and he was one of the x-laxed ones. Maharaji also threw Milky in the water because he knew Milky couldn't swim, and I did hear that one straight from Milky, I remember it well. He thought it was so divine. I believe it was off a boat, not into a swimming pool, or anything like that. Milky told us lots of stories about stuff M did to him and Gary Girard.

Also, that Kissimmee ashram meeting spoken of below was a corker. I posted about M's dead rat analogy a few weeks ago. He started screaming at us about our attachments to worldly things such as, uh, uh, he was really worked up and grabbed in the air for something here ... Coca Cola. Mocking our few little wordly pleasures as celibate shrammies. He mocked someone enjoying a Coca-Cola when THUNK there's a dead rat in the bottom of the bottle. Then he started screaming SUCK THE RAT! IT'S FULL OF COCA-COLA! YOU LOVE COCA-COLA. I wish I had a video, except that I'd probably die laughing. He was sooooo jealous that we could even love a Coke more than him.

Although it didn't register, it was at that moment when I realized that the man was mentally unmoored. It stayed in my suppressed file for many years, because we forgive our friends (and our abusers) again and again, after all.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Thurs, Feb 08, 2001 at 00:03:14 (GMT)
From: Monmot
Email: None
To: Francesca
Subject: such as 'suck the rat!'
Message:
Boy, these stories are sick shit big time. Kathy Sullivan, still called sometimes 'PB,' lives in Malibu and is the head of the mobile library there. She went though hell for a loooog time, even after she left Mr. Big Kahuna. M did a huge fucking number on her. She's no longer into M, but it sure ain't for lack of trying; she was put through M's meatgrinder.

Kathy almost died from a fall some years ago. She's a great person, very smart and funny. She has a website called, 'Kathy's Books of the Month,' where she recommends and reviews books, which she inhales in large quantities. I check out her site every month, because she recommends some fabulous books.

http://home.earthlink.net/~zbig/

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Thurs, Feb 08, 2001 at 00:20:57 (GMT)
From: Francesca
Email: None
To: Monmot
Subject: Dean Ruiz on K's website
Message:
I noticed that Dean Ruiz was the 'artist' on Kathy's website. He was in the LA Ashram when I was. Is he also ex-culta?

He was a nice guy. I always thought it was funny because the 'heavies' that were sent by DLM security to 'stake out' Bhole Ji's band's digs in a Thousand Oaks housing complex (after DLM forcibly seized our musical equipment) were Dean and Jay Zemel. After a few days, the poor guys looked tired, hungry and bored, sitting there in a car all day and night. Several years later we were all in the LA ashram together.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Thurs, Feb 08, 2001 at 00:32:24 (GMT)
From: Monmot
Email: None
To: Francesca
Subject: Dean Ruiz on K's website
Message:
Dean and Kathy have lived together for some years now. Dean and Jay Zemel seem like the last type of guys who'd get heavy. They're so laid back now. Anyway, can't really blame then for the WPC follies. They were pawns like us all.
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Thurs, Feb 08, 2001 at 01:12:25 (GMT)
From: Francesca
Email: None
To: Monmot
Subject: Exactly .... heavy marshmallows!
Message:
Great guys, both.

F

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Wed, Feb 07, 2001 at 23:45:43 (GMT)
From: SB
Email: None
To: Suzanne
Subject: Maharaji's abuses at Amaroo
Message:
I have a participation video where Lard is extremelly demanding and abusive, telling the premies to quit 'fooling around' and do service or leave.

That particular video (is not at hand to put its name now)was very helpful for me to exit the cult because it was the beggining of seeing his true site, read SCREWED UP HUMAN BEING. It would be insane to want to continue being abused, when the true lard emerges on his VERY SPECIAL VIDEOS. What was I thinking always justifying his absurd behavior? SHIT!

Thanks for your post. Are you new?

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Wed, Feb 07, 2001 at 23:08:25 (GMT)
From: Tim G
Email: timgitti@indigo.ie
To: Suzanne
Subject: Maharaji's abuses
Message:
Dear Suzanne...I remember attending a conference with Mr Rawat at Wembley in London. There were about 50 people there ...initiators and community Coodinators [my role at the time].
I was completely and utterly shocked by his tirade and hysterical abuse of us....screaming that what right had we to be doing ANYTHING but satsang service and meditation and much more verbal abuse.It was horrific and of course I went home in shock and remember thinking that it was impossible to do what he said and that I just wasn't able to give that devotion..[something wrong with me ]. I remember crying my eyes out!
Soon afterwards it began to dawn on me what an unpleasant character he was/is and that I had been supressing my real evaluation of him due to cult/peer pressure
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Wed, Feb 07, 2001 at 23:33:53 (GMT)
From: G
Email: None
To: Tim G
Subject: Maharaji's abuses
Message:
Tim G,
I had a similar reaction when I got home to the Ashram (if you could call that a home) after Kissimmee. I was totally depressed, I remember crying while cleaning my mud-encrusted sneakers in the toilet.

Kissimmee, for those who were not there, was a program where Rawat assalted us with several of his longest, heaviest, and loudest tirades. I remember him yelling about our supposed 'sex trips', laying the guilt on as much as possible. The irony of it is that many of us were into a 'non-sex trip', being celibate because he told us to. And from what people have said, it looks like he was into weird sex trips.

He is indeed a very unpleasant character. The more I read here and the longer I stay away from his bs, the clearer this becomes.

To Elan Vital: you are total liars when you say Rawat doesn't have a yacht.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Wed, Feb 07, 2001 at 23:43:30 (GMT)
From: Joe
Email: None
To: G
Subject: Kissemee Freakouts
Message:
Yeah, he sure yelled at us, didn't he? That was the program in which he said we didn't have the right to look at him. He was so fucking heavy that quite a number of people left the swamp we were camping in, and left town. I went back to be CC in Miami, trying to avoid coming in contact with the Lord of Love if I could possibly do it. So opposite the way a devotee was supposed to be acting.

Then in the ashram meeting it was even worse. So bad, I think I blacked most of that out of my memory.

Then, he dressed up in stripped-down Krishna garb and had premies pull him around on a cart while the rest of us lined the dirt roads and pranamed in the dust. It was a real treat. One of the sickest events in the history of the cult.

I think J-M has a picture of that particular atrocity on the website. Truly nauseating. Michael Donner is one of the premies being the human horses.

This was in November, 1979, but, of course, Elan Vital points out that he wasn't pushing Hindu concepts or anything, and certainly wasn't acting like he was God or anything. Oh, no, of course not. Yeah, right.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Fri, Feb 09, 2001 at 13:09:16 (GMT)
From: Mr Mind
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: Kissemee Freakouts
Message:
Hi Joe,
Kissemee was a nightmare wasn't it. One night the fragile shit shower and shaves were struck by lightening and I saw many naked premies running into the rain shouting Boli Shri as though the destruction of the only source of sanitation was a cosmic event, something karmic, a gift from Guru. As the toilets collapsed around them they lept smiling into the night blissed out.

It was all so very sick, sick, sick.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Fri, Feb 09, 2001 at 17:45:20 (GMT)
From: Francesca
Email: None
To: Mr Mind
Subject: Kind of like Woodstock w/o the music
Message:
You guys are bringing back the Kissimmee nightmare. I remember arriving with productive bronchitis (which had not been diagnosed yet) and getting treated like a pain in the ass because I was human. (For those who weren't around then, even mentioning you were not feeling well around the wrong people was sometimes verboten. Some premies had no sympathy for anything human. The party line was just meditate and bear it, and shutup. But to be fair, not with everyone across the board.) So I sucked it up and did front audience security anyway, and paid a trip to the infirmary a few times in between my shifts.

After coming cross country on a plane, with a severe ENT problem, and having to sleep in a tent in the cold, I was pretty miserable. But then Maharaji drove by in the jeep and I pranamed my foolish heart away.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Fri, Feb 09, 2001 at 17:55:42 (GMT)
From: Straw Newcomer
Email: None
To: Francesca
Subject: Where Am I?
Message:
Is this ex-premie.org or a bulletin board for survivors of the nazis?
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sat, Feb 10, 2001 at 16:41:02 (GMT)
From: Katie
Email: None
To: Straw Newcomer
Subject: Cognitive Dissonance and Bizarre Reality
Message:
I don't know if your post was serious or not, but I experienced some real cognitive dissonance reading this thread yesterday. I have heard almost all the stories mentioned in this thread before (and also other weirder ones), but, at this point, I've moved so far beyond my experiences with M that everything people were saying on here began to sound really bizarre.

Here we have all these intelligent, well-spoken, people talking about enduring things that were just SO weird that one would think any person would walk away from the whole situation immediately. I have met some of these people in person and frankly cannot imagine them doing or saying some of the things that they did back then (I know they did, though - that's the weird part.)

One of my favorite sayings, from Sally Carrighar, is 'Bizarre realities can be rejected.' Boy, does that ever apply here! It is REALIZING that you are living in a bizarre reality that is the hard part.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Fri, Feb 09, 2001 at 15:55:30 (GMT)
From: David_J
Email: None
To: Mr Mind
Subject: Kissemee Freakouts
Message:
Mr Mind,
Was that during the storm on the last night of HJ '79, the one that destroyed the stage? Are you positive it was an actual lightning strike? Did you see the flash? Of course, the wind was strong enough it could have blown those showers down!

I was outside my tent holding on to the frame, thinking that if I could just keep everything dry inside, I would be alright. No such luck! Everything was soaked through. I was soaked through.

But I was laughing the whole time. What a perfect end to a disasterous festival!

David

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Fri, Feb 09, 2001 at 16:21:40 (GMT)
From: ex-flowerchild
Email: None
To: David_J
Subject: Kissemee Freakouts
Message:
Yes, that was the storm. Yes, I really did see lightening because I recall distinctly it lit up all these running naked bodies swarming from the shattered shit, shower and shave things. It was one of the most surreal things I have ever seen. I am still haunted by the laughter. Those SSS things were horrible. Could see peoples legs as they shat, everything stank and was slimy, always a long line, many freaked out faces. And the dreadful Ratguru driving along in his expensive car with the musical horn. The frenzy of demented brainwashed joy as the horn was heard, the stampeed to see Him. I remember feeling very pissed off with it all and actually thinking to myself 'well fuck you fatso!'. It started to crumble for me then.
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Thurs, Feb 08, 2001 at 02:47:05 (GMT)
From: D_Thomas
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: Coincidence?
Message:
Joe,
You know my three lowest points with K&M were Kissimee in '79, Spring in '81 (when M came to SF) and winter early '83. Now when I hear your story, I see that you were also similarly affected at exactly the same times. Is it just coincidence or is there a common source?

I wasn't in the ashram meeting at Kissimee, but after about three days, it was so intense I just stopped going to satsang and stayed in my tent reading. Before I left for Kissimee I took the latest copy of Scientific American, which had as its cover story the 'Dung Beetles of Africa', those critters which mine those huge elephant droppings left all over the African savannah. The think I read every word of that Scientific American.

I was surprised to hear Maharaji giving satsang about 'Dung Beetles' a few days latter. So it must have been in Kissemee '79 that he gave his famous 'Dung Beetle' satsang. Maybe he was reading Scientific American.

David

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Thurs, Feb 08, 2001 at 21:25:27 (GMT)
From: D_Thomas
Email: None
To: D_Thomas
Subject: Climates
Message:
I think there were definitely times when Knowledge was spontaneous and easy and there were times very difficult, too demanding and nothing was working. At the time I usually thought that it had to do with my own karma, fate or personality, but now I see that it was also true for those premies around me at the same time. Maybe much of the current feeling was passed around at satsang, so we became somewhat homogeneous in that respect.

Kissimee '79 was unusual in that the climate changed so abruptly. One or two weeks before Kissimee, the vibe at satsang changed from happy and expectant to drab and dreary, with no one having anything to say, in the course of 24 hrs.

Now I find out that this sudden change in atmospherics roughly corresponds to the time that Maharaji arrived at the festival site, and reportedly he was very dissatisfied with the preparations that were being made. Maybe someone telephoned Berkeley and relayed the message and the whole thing got around , which was why satsang changed so rapidly. I was seriously contemplating not going but I already had my ticket.

I wonder if all these climatological changes correspond to changes in the moods of Maharaji.

David

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Thurs, Feb 08, 2001 at 02:21:04 (GMT)
From: Jethro
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: Kissemee Freakouts
Message:
'Then, he dressed up in stripped-down Krishna garb and had premies pull him around on a cart while the rest of us lined the dirt roads and pranamed in the dust.It was a real treat. One of the sickest events in the history of the cult.'

I remember that very well. I had just come of 'helping' in a k-session in a tent and as I came out m was passing by being carried by some initiators. I was about a yard(uk measurement, not quite extinct) away frm him and I turned to see wht he was staring at. 20000(?) pairs of adoring eyes.
I thought 'So this is what it's like to see thru the eyes of God'.
Oy vey!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Thurs, Feb 08, 2001 at 15:59:41 (GMT)
From: Jean-Michel
Email: None
To: Jethro
Subject: As Krishna in His cart: the picture
Message:
here you go:

in Kissimee

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Thurs, Feb 08, 2001 at 17:08:24 (GMT)
From: Joe
Email: None
To: Jean-Michel
Subject: Thanks, J-M .....and
Message:
Well, we sure get a shot of M's tits, don't we? Revolting. How could I ever have been involved in something so ridiculous?

For those who can't tell, that is Michael Donner walking to the right of the Flabby One, on the left side of the picture. Note also the premies holding their hands in prayer mode.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Thurs, Feb 08, 2001 at 18:26:08 (GMT)
From: Susan
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: JM, encore of the horse's ass pic too
Message:
also, that carried around in a cart pic needs to be prominently displayed along the guru's quotes about never wanting to be a leader or a figurehead and the 'we are not a cult' FAQ's on Ev's site. What total BS!!!!!
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Fri, Feb 09, 2001 at 11:17:04 (GMT)
From: Jean-Michel
Email: None
To: Susan
Subject: Picture in a good place now !!
Message:
I never realized its power before.

I've used it to illustrate the Indian background page.

This is how Prem Rawat's been presented to us !!

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sat, Feb 10, 2001 at 02:29:57 (GMT)
From: bill
Email: None
To: Jean-Michel
Subject: really impressive work JM!-nt
Message:
asd
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Thurs, Feb 08, 2001 at 02:00:56 (GMT)
From: Postie
Email: None
To: All
Subject: Barbara Clay
Message:
Barbara Clay left the initiator training program after disagreeing with M about something. She had been very involved with propogation and even appeared in one of the intro videos. After leaving, she developed cancer and got very weak. Before she died, another of the initiators (not fair to name the person) asked M if she could go see Barbara. The answer was no. That initiator also resigned.

Current PWK's, every time you see the phrase 'Only by Compassion' on the Divine Mall trinkets, please take a moment to remember Barbara.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Thurs, Feb 08, 2001 at 15:50:58 (GMT)
From: Jeff
Email: None
To: Postie
Subject: Barbara Clay
Message:
Was this the same Barbara Clay who was in the 'actor's' ashram in LA around '82?
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Thurs, Feb 08, 2001 at 16:10:25 (GMT)
From: Monmot
Email: None
To: Jeff
Subject: Yes..........nt
Message:
mm
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Thurs, Feb 08, 2001 at 17:06:47 (GMT)
From: Jeff
Email: None
To: Monmot
Subject: Barbara
Message:
She WAS a wonderful person and a lot of fun to be with. I'm sorry to hear she's gone.
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Thurs, Feb 08, 2001 at 18:12:40 (GMT)
From: Monmot
Email: None
To: Jeff
Subject: I agree completely.......nt
Message:
mm
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Thurs, Feb 08, 2001 at 02:24:39 (GMT)
From: Joe
Email: None
To: Postie
Subject: Barbara Clay
Message:
I didn't know Barbara, but I remember her as a nice person, the few interactions I had with her. I do remember someone telling me she had died.

God, I can't imagine, the way I believed in Maharaji, actually LEAVING the ITP. That took guts, or maybe Maharaji was so awful she couldn't help it. When did she do this? Do you recall the approximate year?

Did Maharaji say why that other initiator couldn't go visit Barbara when she was dying? Was the implication that Barbara had crossed M and therefore was excommunicated like Bihari and therefore she shouldn't go? When the other initiator resigned, did she also leave the cult?

That's sad about Bihari. I remember it was really weird when he showed up in Miami. I guess there were orders from M that Elan Vital wasn't to help him. Fortunately there were some community people who did.

I guess forgiveness and compassion are not a strong points for Maharaji.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Thurs, Feb 08, 2001 at 03:32:58 (GMT)
From: Postie
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: Excommunicated
Message:
Barbara became a non-entity and the other initiators were forbidden to communicate with her.

The other initiator who left did so because they were close to Barbara and thought it was her duty as a friend to be with her. The other initiator did leave and never went back.

Don't recall the year - anyone else know more about this?

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Thurs, Feb 08, 2001 at 02:06:15 (GMT)
From: Monmot
Email: None
To: Postie
Subject: Barbara Clay
Message:
Not letting someone visit a dying person is an utter shame. Barbara Clay was a wonderful woman. I attended a few healing circles for her. She was a trouper. Her memorial service was just an incredible outpouring of love for her. Good for whatever initiator it was that resigned.

M's interpretation of compassion sounds indentical to Bush's (as in 'fuck 'em').

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Wed, Feb 07, 2001 at 22:35:00 (GMT)
From: Paul
Email: None
To: Suzanne
Subject: Gary Gerard's Nose
Message:
If I recall correctly, I believe the great one broke Gary's nose a couple of times in the early 70s. Everyone was jealous of Gary's good luck at the lila directed at him. Gary was one of the few high level,full time PAMs of that era. Maharaji even let him marry and keep his status.
Return to Index -:- Top of Index