Forum V: Archive
Compiled: Fri, Mar 02, 2001 at 18:01:16 (GMT)
From: Feb 18, 2001 To: Feb 28, 2001 Page: 2 Of: 5


gerry -:- The crazy mind -:- Sat, Feb 24, 2001 at 17:35:56 (GMT)
__ Bin Liner -:- He didn't know what he meant , is.... -:- Sun, Feb 25, 2001 at 02:22:44 (GMT)
__ moldy warp -:- The crazy mind -:- Sat, Feb 24, 2001 at 17:48:23 (GMT)
__ __ CD -:- The crazy mind -:- Sat, Feb 24, 2001 at 21:28:35 (GMT)
__ __ __ Nigel -:- No, Chris... -:- Sun, Feb 25, 2001 at 19:16:58 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ CD -:- yes -:- Sun, Feb 25, 2001 at 21:09:44 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Nigel -:- If people hurl stuff, it is because.. -:- Sun, Feb 25, 2001 at 22:01:04 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ CD -:- OK -:- Mon, Feb 26, 2001 at 04:36:29 (GMT)
__ __ __ moldy warp -:- Satan -:- Sun, Feb 25, 2001 at 01:53:49 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ sb -:- Satan: Just what LARD does!!! -:- Sun, Feb 25, 2001 at 22:48:05 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ moldy warp -:- Satan: Just what LARD does!!! -:- Mon, Feb 26, 2001 at 00:19:15 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ gerry -:- Sorry to butt in here... -:- Mon, Feb 26, 2001 at 00:34:09 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ moldy warp -:- To gerry re:Sorry to butt in here... -:- Mon, Feb 26, 2001 at 02:15:41 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ gerry -:- To gerry re:Sorry to butt in here... -:- Mon, Feb 26, 2001 at 16:04:50 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ CD -:- Satan -:- Sun, Feb 25, 2001 at 03:54:52 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ moldy warp -:- Satan -:- Mon, Feb 26, 2001 at 00:10:20 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ CD -:- good luck -:- Mon, Feb 26, 2001 at 07:39:27 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ JohnT -:- Satan -:- Sun, Feb 25, 2001 at 07:56:57 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ moldy warp -:- Satan -:- Mon, Feb 26, 2001 at 00:20:38 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Pat Conlon -:- Satan, your non-breaking space is showing NT -:- Sun, Feb 25, 2001 at 09:48:28 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ JohnT -:- & -:- Sun, Feb 25, 2001 at 10:02:49 (GMT)
__ __ __ Jim -:- HOW ABOUT THIS ONE, CD SUPPORTERS????????????? -:- Sun, Feb 25, 2001 at 00:40:51 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ cq -:- CD supporters Jim? Taking sides now are we? -:- Mon, Feb 26, 2001 at 18:44:04 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ DC -:- HOW ABOUT THIS ONE, CD SUPPORTERS????????????? -:- Sun, Feb 25, 2001 at 22:20:11 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Jim -:- By the way, Nige -- care to prove me wrong? -:- Sun, Feb 25, 2001 at 23:32:23 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ JohnT -:- Can't do it. -:- Mon, Feb 26, 2001 at 13:29:39 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Nigel -:- By the way, Nige -- care to prove me wrong? -:- Sun, Feb 25, 2001 at 23:50:25 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Jim -:- It's inactive (if not censored altogether) (nt) -:- Sun, Feb 25, 2001 at 23:56:27 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ JHB -:- Barry also said the the argument was lame! -:- Sun, Feb 25, 2001 at 23:36:17 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Jim -:- Lame? -:- Sun, Feb 25, 2001 at 23:54:45 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Jim -:- Shut up, you worm! -:- Sun, Feb 25, 2001 at 22:52:54 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ DC -:- Excuse me - who are you talking to? -:- Sun, Feb 25, 2001 at 22:59:17 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Forum Admin -:- DC does not appear to be CD -:- Sun, Feb 25, 2001 at 23:15:48 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ DC -:- A short introduction -:- Sun, Feb 25, 2001 at 23:20:57 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Jim -:- Cute ..... I owe you one -:- Sun, Feb 25, 2001 at 23:25:56 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ CD -:- who -:- Sun, Feb 25, 2001 at 04:21:56 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Jim -:- I just mean those who think you're sincere (nt) -:- Sun, Feb 25, 2001 at 07:44:12 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Barry -:- He didn't!(nt) -:- Sun, Feb 25, 2001 at 02:02:41 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Jim -:- I meant 'moldy warp' not Helen (nt) -:- Sun, Feb 25, 2001 at 00:41:58 (GMT)
__ __ Helen -:- The crazy mind -:- Sat, Feb 24, 2001 at 17:58:21 (GMT)
__ __ __ CD -:- The crazy mind -:- Sat, Feb 24, 2001 at 21:25:26 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Connie -:- The ever changing mind -:- Sun, Feb 25, 2001 at 08:13:49 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Connie -:- Sorry, wrong quote, still getting hang of posting -:- Sun, Feb 25, 2001 at 08:20:26 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Thelma -:- Connie, you go get em girl -:- Sun, Feb 25, 2001 at 09:53:39 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Helen -:- The crazy mind -:- Sun, Feb 25, 2001 at 04:26:41 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Scott T. -:- The crazy mind -:- Mon, Feb 26, 2001 at 06:45:58 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Jim -:- Yeah? Well do you remember THIS too? -:- Sat, Feb 24, 2001 at 21:28:00 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ CD -:- This one, yes! -:- Sat, Feb 24, 2001 at 21:41:20 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Barry -:- CD! ARE YOU A PREMIE STILL OR WHAT?? -:- Sun, Feb 25, 2001 at 02:17:54 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ CD -:- WHAT?? -:- Sun, Feb 25, 2001 at 04:20:14 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ moldy warp -:- on berating M -:- Mon, Feb 26, 2001 at 00:35:23 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Barry -:- Musicians don't make money from...... -:- Sun, Feb 25, 2001 at 04:39:15 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Jim -:- Foul ball, liar! -:- Sat, Feb 24, 2001 at 21:58:09 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ CD -:- whack -:- Sat, Feb 24, 2001 at 22:33:12 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Barry -:- It's just-your so-sitten on the fence!(nt) -:- Sun, Feb 25, 2001 at 02:20:44 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Jim -:- You're weazling -:- Sun, Feb 25, 2001 at 00:32:46 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ CD -:- You beast of the devil -:- Sun, Feb 25, 2001 at 04:10:05 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ JohnT -:- CD = beast of the devil -:- Sun, Feb 25, 2001 at 08:18:12 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ CD -:- right -:- Sun, Feb 25, 2001 at 20:59:47 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Jerry -:- Let me ask you again, CD -:- Sun, Feb 25, 2001 at 22:26:16 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ CD -:- allow me to introduce myself -:- Mon, Feb 26, 2001 at 07:21:00 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Jerry -:- Thanks for the reply, CD -:- Mon, Feb 26, 2001 at 20:08:12 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Connie -:- Jerry, I agree with what you said, as well -:- Tues, Feb 27, 2001 at 02:19:59 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ JohnT -:- fighting with labels -:- Sun, Feb 25, 2001 at 21:55:28 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Jerry -:- Who is M to you? -:- Sat, Feb 24, 2001 at 23:40:22 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ JHB -:- Re: Disagreement -:- Sat, Feb 24, 2001 at 23:28:36 (GMT)
__ __ __ Daneane -:- 'perverted' -:- Sat, Feb 24, 2001 at 18:12:53 (GMT)
__ __ __ gerry -:- Let's get HAMR'ed then... -:- Sat, Feb 24, 2001 at 18:05:42 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ JohnT -:- a personal note -:- Sun, Feb 25, 2001 at 09:01:35 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ CD -:- supernatural -:- Sun, Feb 25, 2001 at 21:15:07 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Nigel -:- The big picture, eh? -:- Sun, Feb 25, 2001 at 22:30:15 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ CD -:- The really big picture -:- Mon, Feb 26, 2001 at 08:07:03 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ JohnT -:- Routine poetic response -:- Tues, Feb 27, 2001 at 09:20:06 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Pat Conlon -:- Thank you, John T, for that -:- Sun, Feb 25, 2001 at 10:12:08 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ JohnT -:- Hi Pat, you're up late -:- Sun, Feb 25, 2001 at 10:52:38 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Pat Conlon -:- John T, eg - his revisionism re the mind -:- Sun, Feb 25, 2001 at 19:41:10 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Jim -:- No, Pat, that's not correct -:- Sun, Feb 25, 2001 at 22:58:55 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Pat Conlon -:- I know Jim -:- Mon, Feb 26, 2001 at 01:57:12 (GMT)

moldy warp -:- Narrow escape! -:- Sat, Feb 24, 2001 at 16:40:26 (GMT)
__ SB -:- Your is wider, yeah...NO! -:- Sun, Feb 25, 2001 at 22:27:42 (GMT)
__ __ moldy warp -:- To SB Your is wider, yeah...NO! -:- Mon, Feb 26, 2001 at 01:52:47 (GMT)
__ __ __ Pat Conlon -:- Moldy, vegetarian induced irony deficiency -:- Mon, Feb 26, 2001 at 03:57:42 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ moldy warp -:- T Pat Conlon -:- Mon, Feb 26, 2001 at 19:10:23 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ moldy warp -:- Moldy, vegetarian induced irony deficiency -:- Mon, Feb 26, 2001 at 19:05:55 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Pat Conlon -:- Moldy, misunderstandins happen at warp speed on FV -:- Mon, Feb 26, 2001 at 19:57:48 (GMT)
__ DeProGram Anand Ji -:- All Ex's are fully realized beings -:- Sun, Feb 25, 2001 at 13:17:55 (GMT)
__ janet -:- i did. that's why i do.n/t -:- Sun, Feb 25, 2001 at 04:49:20 (GMT)
__ Joy -:- Narrow escape! -:- Sat, Feb 24, 2001 at 17:20:19 (GMT)
__ AJW -:- All roads lead to Utrecht. -:- Sat, Feb 24, 2001 at 17:13:16 (GMT)
__ __ moldy warp -:- to AJW - the canal -:- Sat, Feb 24, 2001 at 17:31:37 (GMT)
__ __ __ AJW -:- It's a long hard path. -:- Sun, Feb 25, 2001 at 10:17:20 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ moldy warp -:- To AJW It's a long hard path. -:- Tues, Feb 27, 2001 at 00:43:16 (GMT)
__ salam -:- what about you? -:- Sat, Feb 24, 2001 at 17:00:54 (GMT)
__ __ moldy warp -:- To Salam -last communication of realised premie -:- Sat, Feb 24, 2001 at 17:22:14 (GMT)
__ __ __ sb -:- I hate superior beings (nt) -:- Sun, Feb 25, 2001 at 22:29:53 (GMT)
__ __ __ salam -:- I know who you are -:- Sun, Feb 25, 2001 at 02:20:08 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ moldy warp -:- Sense of humour by pass -:- Mon, Feb 26, 2001 at 01:58:10 (GMT)

AJW -:- I am Freaked Out!. -:- Sat, Feb 24, 2001 at 13:10:39 (GMT)
__ Jerry -:- I have a way out! -:- Sun, Feb 25, 2001 at 22:57:50 (GMT)
__ __ AJW -:- Thanks Jerry -:- Mon, Feb 26, 2001 at 12:52:01 (GMT)
__ janet -:- what are WE?? chopped liver? -:- Sun, Feb 25, 2001 at 05:51:29 (GMT)
__ __ AJW -:- My long dark night is coming to an end. -:- Sun, Feb 25, 2001 at 10:33:11 (GMT)
__ Roger eDrek -:- Perhaps, a week or two at TED Farkel's will help -:- Sat, Feb 24, 2001 at 21:33:46 (GMT)
__ __ AJW -:- TED Farkel's -:- Mon, Feb 26, 2001 at 12:53:29 (GMT)
__ xentrik -:- Sounds like you need some drugs [see note by FA] -:- Sat, Feb 24, 2001 at 18:21:11 (GMT)
__ salam -:- not to worry, happens all the time -:- Sat, Feb 24, 2001 at 16:37:30 (GMT)
__ __ AJW -:- not to worry, happens all the time -:- Sat, Feb 24, 2001 at 16:43:57 (GMT)
__ __ __ AJW -:- ps Salam -:- Sat, Feb 24, 2001 at 16:59:45 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Postie -:- AJW, it's at www.amaroo.org (nt) -:- Sat, Feb 24, 2001 at 18:39:21 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ salam -:- Excuse me -:- Sat, Feb 24, 2001 at 19:28:42 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ salam -:- Mate, am under cover at present -:- Sat, Feb 24, 2001 at 18:13:00 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ AJW -:- That's supposed to be secret salam. -:- Sun, Feb 25, 2001 at 10:28:03 (GMT)
__ Sean -:- I am Freaked Out!. -:- Sat, Feb 24, 2001 at 16:22:14 (GMT)
__ JHB -:- 14,000,000 years of ex-premiedom -:- Sat, Feb 24, 2001 at 13:20:33 (GMT)

JTF -:- It's been over 20 years now, right? -:- Sat, Feb 24, 2001 at 13:09:09 (GMT)

Joe -:- To ULF -- Coordinators meeting Dec, 1976 - WOW -:- Sat, Feb 24, 2001 at 06:08:47 (GMT)
__ AJW -:- I've got boxes of this stuff Joe. -:- Sun, Feb 25, 2001 at 10:37:08 (GMT)
__ __ ulf -:- I've got boxes of this stuff Joe. -:- Sun, Feb 25, 2001 at 13:55:23 (GMT)
__ __ __ Francesca -:- No it means you GET it -:- Sun, Feb 25, 2001 at 22:29:29 (GMT)
__ Jim -:- Excellente! -:- Sat, Feb 24, 2001 at 20:15:00 (GMT)
__ cq -:- To ULF -- Coordinators meeting Dec, 1976 - WOW -:- Sat, Feb 24, 2001 at 16:54:16 (GMT)
__ Katie -:- I remember all this stuff - yuck is right! -:- Sat, Feb 24, 2001 at 15:45:10 (GMT)
__ Disculta -:- Yukko -:- Sat, Feb 24, 2001 at 07:04:20 (GMT)
__ __ moldy warp -:- Double Yukko -:- Sat, Feb 24, 2001 at 18:55:27 (GMT)
__ __ __ Sean -:- Double Yukko -:- Sun, Feb 25, 2001 at 04:25:09 (GMT)
__ __ __ Katie -:- moldy warp, I feel for you -:- Sun, Feb 25, 2001 at 01:25:29 (GMT)
__ __ janet -:- MICHAEL DETTMERS--CARE TO COMMENT HERE? -:- Sat, Feb 24, 2001 at 07:19:59 (GMT)
__ __ __ Michael Dettmers -:- MICHAEL DETTMERS--CARE TO COMMENT HERE? -:- Sun, Feb 25, 2001 at 00:03:05 (GMT)
__ __ __ AJW -:- From what I hear... -:- Sat, Feb 24, 2001 at 13:19:03 (GMT)

salam -:- what is the relation between these companies -:- Sat, Feb 24, 2001 at 04:16:43 (GMT)
__ salam -:- IRCC-Credit Standing -:- Sun, Feb 25, 2001 at 02:27:13 (GMT)
__ __ Marianne -:- IRCC-Credit Standing -:- Sun, Feb 25, 2001 at 06:35:09 (GMT)
__ __ __ salam -:- Court Writ Information -:- Mon, Feb 26, 2001 at 00:04:56 (GMT)

ITMA -:- Another piece of history -:- Sat, Feb 24, 2001 at 03:06:43 (GMT)

Nigel -:- Feet of Clay -:- Sat, Feb 24, 2001 at 02:12:01 (GMT)
__ Katie -:- Feet of Clay -:- Sat, Feb 24, 2001 at 15:32:37 (GMT)
__ Loaf -:- Original thinking, piracy and role models -:- Sat, Feb 24, 2001 at 09:49:20 (GMT)
__ __ Loaf -:- Please Loaf, can you remember -:- Sun, Feb 25, 2001 at 16:12:33 (GMT)
__ __ __ JohnT -:- ^^^ from JohnT ^^^ (what the #%*?) -nt- -:- Sun, Feb 25, 2001 at 16:15:18 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ The Real Loaf !! -:- FA Imposters abound !! -:- Sun, Feb 25, 2001 at 17:49:29 (GMT)
__ __ Ulf -:- Original thinking, piracy and role models -:- Sun, Feb 25, 2001 at 14:41:49 (GMT)
__ __ moldy warp -:- default operating system -:- Sat, Feb 24, 2001 at 17:06:12 (GMT)
__ __ AJW -:- We should find this poem Loaf. -:- Sat, Feb 24, 2001 at 13:30:39 (GMT)
__ Scott T. -:- Feet of Clay -:- Sat, Feb 24, 2001 at 04:45:02 (GMT)
__ __ AJW -:- Social Science Data and Single Parents. (ot) -:- Sat, Feb 24, 2001 at 13:58:48 (GMT)
__ __ __ Scott T. -:- Social Science Data and Single Parents. (ot) -:- Sun, Feb 25, 2001 at 07:15:48 (GMT)
__ Susan -:- Awesome post Nigel -:- Sat, Feb 24, 2001 at 02:49:46 (GMT)
__ bill -:- Feet of Clay -:- Sat, Feb 24, 2001 at 02:37:37 (GMT)
__ __ Helen -:- Feet of Clay -:- Sat, Feb 24, 2001 at 04:46:19 (GMT)
__ __ __ Postie -:- Feet of Clay - very astute Nigel -:- Sat, Feb 24, 2001 at 16:18:13 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ cq -:- very astute of you too, Postie -:- Sat, Feb 24, 2001 at 16:25:39 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Postie -:- True cq - here's more thoughts -:- Sat, Feb 24, 2001 at 16:44:30 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ cq -:- His ivory tower prevents him even asking for what -:- Mon, Feb 26, 2001 at 20:55:22 (GMT)

cq -:- The origin of the term elan vital -Pseudo-science? -:- Fri, Feb 23, 2001 at 20:56:21 (GMT)
__ Nigel -:- 'Elan Vital' - crap theory? - you bet! -:- Fri, Feb 23, 2001 at 21:33:48 (GMT)
__ __ Bin Liner -:- * Elan* , was the word the French .... -:- Fri, Feb 23, 2001 at 23:38:28 (GMT)
__ __ moldy warp -:- Brilliant Bertrand Russell quote -:- Fri, Feb 23, 2001 at 23:32:34 (GMT)
__ __ Postie -:- Nigel, you were right the first time -:- Fri, Feb 23, 2001 at 21:46:52 (GMT)
__ __ __ Nigel -:- I'm not so sure... -:- Fri, Feb 23, 2001 at 22:18:09 (GMT)
__ Way -:- Prem Pal's dream -:- Fri, Feb 23, 2001 at 21:20:14 (GMT)
__ __ Postie -:- Elan Vital -:- Fri, Feb 23, 2001 at 21:31:41 (GMT)
__ __ __ Way -:- Elan Vital -:- Fri, Feb 23, 2001 at 22:07:36 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Kelly -:- Entelechy -:- Fri, Feb 23, 2001 at 22:44:09 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Way -:- No, no -:- Fri, Feb 23, 2001 at 23:03:10 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Kelly -:- No, no But but -:- Fri, Feb 23, 2001 at 23:29:24 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Nigel -:- Relax - you ain't stoopid! (nt) -:- Fri, Feb 23, 2001 at 23:35:27 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Nigel -:- Aristotle was one dozy fucker... -:- Fri, Feb 23, 2001 at 23:28:32 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ JohnT -:- Aristotle and the flat earth theory -:- Sun, Feb 25, 2001 at 17:00:12 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Scott T. -:- Aristotle was one dozy fucker... -:- Sat, Feb 24, 2001 at 14:37:35 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ moldy warp -:- Your Book... -:- Fri, Feb 23, 2001 at 23:52:55 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Nigel -:- email me... -:- Fri, Feb 23, 2001 at 23:58:40 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ moldy warp -:- Your Book... -:- Fri, Feb 23, 2001 at 23:55:00 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ moldy warp -:- To nigel -:- Fri, Feb 23, 2001 at 23:57:32 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Nigel -:- dead brains? - me too. -:- Sat, Feb 24, 2001 at 00:04:08 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ moldy warp -:- dead brains? - me too. -:- Sat, Feb 24, 2001 at 00:26:50 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Kelly -:- Aristotle was one dozy fucker... -:- Fri, Feb 23, 2001 at 23:47:19 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Nigel -:- Latvian Night? - Yup - I'm coming too. -:- Sat, Feb 24, 2001 at 00:14:28 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Nigel -:- Stay tuned.. -:- Fri, Feb 23, 2001 at 22:30:52 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Marianne -:- Read yer email, Nigel --nt -:- Fri, Feb 23, 2001 at 22:34:37 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Kelly -:- Read yer email, Marianne nt -:- Fri, Feb 23, 2001 at 23:01:19 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ moldy warp -:- Socrates revinvented -:- Sat, Feb 24, 2001 at 00:03:05 (GMT)


Date: Sat, Feb 24, 2001 at 17:35:56 (GMT)
From: gerry
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: The crazy mind
Message:
What did rawat mean when he spoke of the mind as a 'devil?' For sure, there was all that 'in your mind' talk in spades, but what did goober mean by it?

Certainly our minds were programmed with a whole lot of garbage from earliest childhood and all that stuff affects us in the present. Surely not all of what's 'in the mind' is good; otherwise, why would Barry (for example) be feeling the way he is today?

No, I think goober had something there. And meditation can be an effect tool for some to alleviate the pain of wrong and destructive thinking patterns. Not the rawat invented anything new, and he exploited and perverted it to the maximum for his own benefit, but...

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sun, Feb 25, 2001 at 02:22:44 (GMT)
From: Bin Liner
Email: None
To: gerry
Subject: He didn't know what he meant , is....
Message:
....my guess.

Just parroting stuff .

Feeling his way in the 'I know better than you 'business .

To do that though , you've got to explain yourself at some point ; say that you shouldn't screw your next door neighbour's wife , because her husband might call with a baseball bat.

Or you shouldn't do it because you'll get reincarnated as a toad .

Or you'll burn forever , or whatever it is .

Make a point , elaborate a system or dogma , explain it .

Only problem is you've got to think about stuff then , which leads to spotting the holes , which leads to doubts .

Much better , when you have no coherent ideas , only the inherited meditation techniques ,is to tell your
followers that thinking about anything but you is sure fire
perdition .

That there's something in the meditation , I have no doubt.

That Rawat has stolen the something , I also have no doubt.

Let's face it : we wanted to kiss the sky , but chose the wrong pilot.

It was a 2 way trip.

All that stuff , Q & A , when he was 17 , 18 +, doing that compassionate guru takes time out to answer confused devotee routine , we hung on every word for a glimmer of what he thought about ....ANYTHING.

All the while he was just taking the FUCKING PISS.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sat, Feb 24, 2001 at 17:48:23 (GMT)
From: moldy warp
Email: None
To: gerry
Subject: The crazy mind
Message:
do you know when M referred to the mind as the devil??? I'm not sure K meditation does alleviate destructive thinking patterns. For me it was a case of , ignore thoughts whatever they were and try and focus, 'go' elsewhere 'inside'. The effect of this is to fragment the personality, into the 'real me' amd 'my mind'. Yeh we can think negative things and that is a bad feeling. The less we focus on what we are thinking, the less we are aware of the content and the less chance we have to remodels our thoughts.I am not into thinking that there is me, and my mind, or, for that matter, my feelings, and my thoughts....Thinking is a feeling (and vice versa)
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sat, Feb 24, 2001 at 21:28:35 (GMT)
From: CD
Email: None
To: moldy warp
Subject: The crazy mind
Message:
>do you know when M referred to the mind as the devil???

There is the old story of Satan you know.
The highest of the angels who tried to become greater than God.
Can be interpreted lots of different ways.

How about the tower of Babel?

Oh no! What have I done - g.

CD

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sun, Feb 25, 2001 at 19:16:58 (GMT)
From: Nigel
Email: None
To: CD
Subject: No, Chris...
Message:
YOU don't know what moldy warp's talking about.

You seem very rude and irritable for a 'life's great' kind of guy with infinite experiences under his belt.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sun, Feb 25, 2001 at 21:09:44 (GMT)
From: CD
Email: None
To: Nigel
Subject: yes
Message:
Why always 'NO'?
In the history of philosophy there have been different views and conclusions reached. There has never been agreement on the ultimate logical truth according to what can be expressed in words and written down.
Do you now have the answer?
Sure, your answer.
But there is a long history of people with 'their answers'. And for some reason there are a lot of different ones.

>YOU don't know what moldy warp's talking about.

OK, here is some Moldy stuff:
>For me it was a case of , ignore thoughts whatever they were and try and focus, 'go' elsewhere 'inside'. The effect of this is to fragment the personality, into the 'real me' amd 'my mind'.

Yes, I don't 'understand' Moldys conclusion.
I don't buy that veiw. Get it?
The inner experience without thought has validity for me according to my own experience.

>You seem very rude and irritable for a 'life's great' kind of guy with infinite experiences under his belt.

I'm not feeling irritable.
Hopefully not too rude.
Just standing my ground when the impulse to do so arises.
I get some pretty nasty words hurled at me.

CD

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sun, Feb 25, 2001 at 22:01:04 (GMT)
From: Nigel
Email: None
To: CD
Subject: If people hurl stuff, it is because..
Message:
..this is an EX-premie forum, and you are just a visitor with no purpose that I can see beyond causing disruption with multiple, minimalist, eliptic and hostile posts that say nothing at all.

Visitors are, of course, welcome, but not those who (a) can not or will not answer a straight question (eg. try Jerry's lower down), or (b) attempt to deny the obvious (eg. M's speaking of 'mind' as the enemy) or (c) fail to acknowledge M's blatant lying about his past, even when chapter and verse are presented before your eyes.

And telling moldy warp she doesn't know what she's talking about is bloody rude since I didn't notice her hurling abuse in your direction - nor do you back up this assertion.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Mon, Feb 26, 2001 at 04:36:29 (GMT)
From: CD
Email: None
To: Nigel
Subject: OK
Message:
>And telling moldy warp she doesn't know what she's talking about is bloody rude since I didn't notice her hurling abuse in your direction

Lighten up Nigel.
It was a simple echo of this statement made to me by Moldy:
'I wouldn't try to paste Christian theology onto M's trip - you don't know what you are talking about.'

Anyway, you got me riled up, so I went out and bought 2 new guitars. A Guild AAA Bluesbird and a Parker Spanish Fly. Now I feel better. They were both at a highly reduced price at the same store. Only $2900 for both of them. Must be my karma kicking in.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sun, Feb 25, 2001 at 01:53:49 (GMT)
From: moldy warp
Email: None
To: CD
Subject: Satan
Message:
Have you read 'The Screwtape Letters:Letters from a Senior Devil to a Junior Devil'??? by C S Lewis. Very astute book - Senior devil telling his nephew how to tempt a human being.Small selection of Methods of temptation as follows:
Never let the human realise his real situation
Always keep him confused
Stop him having a sense of humour

I wouldn't try to paste Christian theology onto M's trip - you don't know what you are talking about.

M's trip focuses the poor premie on what is going on in his/her head
It is DEVISIVE
It splits a part of you from another part (your so-called mind from the rest of yourself)
It specifically tells you that you will be confused.

The Christian God created human beings in their entirity. Loves them in total, every bit of them. The Christian devil is OUTSIDE of a person, NOT part of them.
The Christian God gave us free will.
The Christian devil did not become greater than God
Which reminds me, on YOUR terms Satan tries to become greater than God - doesn't that remind you of a certain individual's words
If not I'll spell it out for you -'Guru is greater than God'
Dodgy stance -on YOUR terms.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sun, Feb 25, 2001 at 22:48:05 (GMT)
From: sb
Email: None
To: moldy warp
Subject: Satan: Just what LARD does!!!
Message:
Have you read 'The Screwtape Letters:Letters from a Senior Devil to a Junior Devil'??? by C S Lewis. Very astute book - Senior devil telling his nephew how to tempt a human being.Small selection of Methods of temptation as follows:
Never let the human realise his real situation
Always keep him confused
Stop him having a sense of humour

and here, more clear:If not I'll spell it out for you -'Guru is greater than God'

Bullshit, perhaps?

Moldy, you get in my nerves. open up.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Mon, Feb 26, 2001 at 00:19:15 (GMT)
From: moldy warp
Email: None
To: sb
Subject: Satan: Just what LARD does!!!
Message:
Please elaborate. How do I get on your nerves????
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Mon, Feb 26, 2001 at 00:34:09 (GMT)
From: gerry
Email: None
To: moldy warp and SB
Subject: Sorry to butt in here...
Message:
I think there is a semantic misunderstanding here on SB's part. Moldy Warp is a staunch ex-premie and I think SB was misunderstanding what you were saying, Moldy Warp.

It's the medium I suppose.

How are ya doin', SB? Nice to 'see' you around.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Mon, Feb 26, 2001 at 02:15:41 (GMT)
From: moldy warp
Email: None
To: gerry
Subject: To gerry re:Sorry to butt in here...
Message:
thanks. I think SB didn't get my joke (see Narrow Escape thread below). Which is odd cos I have E mailed him recently.
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Mon, Feb 26, 2001 at 16:04:50 (GMT)
From: gerry
Email: None
To: moldy warp
Subject: To gerry re:Sorry to butt in here...
Message:
Moldy,

SB is a lively, intelligent, passionate, gorgeous WOMAN, for whom English is a second language.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sun, Feb 25, 2001 at 03:54:52 (GMT)
From: CD
Email: None
To: moldy warp
Subject: Satan
Message:
>I wouldn't try to paste Christian theology onto M's trip - you don't know what you are talking about.

>It splits a part of you from another part (your so-called mind from the rest of yourself)
It specifically tells you that you will be confused.

You don't know what you are talking about.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Mon, Feb 26, 2001 at 00:10:20 (GMT)
From: moldy warp
Email: None
To: CD
Subject: Satan
Message:
Oh yes I do. Note this IS a site for expremies. If you don't agree, fair enough, but why keep telling us!Unfortunately your posts make me ever more glad I have left M and his world behind. Good luck in your personal journey, but please allow me to have mine!
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Mon, Feb 26, 2001 at 07:39:27 (GMT)
From: CD
Email: None
To: moldy warp
Subject: good luck
Message:
>Good luck in your personal journey, but please allow me to have mine!

Certainly.
And good luck to you to!

CD

PS
I should not have echoed back 'You don't know what you are talking about'.
Thats not really the way I see it. I can't judge your opinions except from my realm. And as long as the consequences of your opinions don't directly affect me in a negative way I should not be concerned that we don't see eye to eye. Thats just the way things turned out.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sun, Feb 25, 2001 at 07:56:57 (GMT)
From: JohnT
Email: None
To: CD
Subject: Satan
Message:
If YOU know what you are talking about...


nbsp;


THEN FUCKING WELL TALK - DON'T JUST SNIPE! CREEP!! POSER!!!


Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Mon, Feb 26, 2001 at 00:20:38 (GMT)
From: moldy warp
Email: None
To: JohnT
Subject: Satan
Message:
Exactly!
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sun, Feb 25, 2001 at 09:48:28 (GMT)
From: Pat Conlon
Email: None
To: JohnT
Subject: Satan, your non-breaking space is showing NT
Message:
oops
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sun, Feb 25, 2001 at 10:02:49 (GMT)
From: JohnT
Email: None
To: Pat Conlon
Subject: &
Message:
... to make a white space (blank) I should've used

& n b s p ;

(without the spaces)

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sun, Feb 25, 2001 at 00:40:51 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: CD
Subject: HOW ABOUT THIS ONE, CD SUPPORTERS?????????????
Message:
Come on, Katie, Sandy, Cq and whoever. Tell me about how CD answered Helen sincerely here.

(Christ! I would have to have been in a cult of all things! Sheesh!)

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Mon, Feb 26, 2001 at 18:44:04 (GMT)
From: cq
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: CD supporters Jim? Taking sides now are we?
Message:
I personally disagree with a lot of CD's ideas, his example here about seeing the mind as 'Satan' being a case in point. In short - I think he's deluded to believe that.

But just because I disagree with those beliefs, I don't see how that makes him insincere, or a liar.

And, incidentally, by posting what he's just posted, does it sound to you like he's at last getting round to answering the question you were trying to get him to answer? (about M saying the mind was the devil).


(BTW - I've been offline since Saturday pm (GNT) and the thread we recently disagreed on seems to have vanished - I've emailed the FA to see what's happened, cause I'm itching to see what direction the discussion went in ...)

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sun, Feb 25, 2001 at 22:20:11 (GMT)
From: DC
Email: DC@redcrow.demon.co.uk
To: Jim
Subject: HOW ABOUT THIS ONE, CD SUPPORTERS?????????????
Message:
There are many ways to answer a question. Sincere is the feeling you get when you feel sincere.
The universe is full of things we don't know about.
You can't plough a straight furrow with a one-legged mule.

Even philosphers and scientists disagree sometimes.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sun, Feb 25, 2001 at 23:32:23 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: DC
Subject: By the way, Nige -- care to prove me wrong?
Message:
Nigel,

In the argument below I say that Katie is flatly lying. Lying like a motherfucker. So far only two people have thrown in their two cents worth, John, who agreed that it looked like Katie said just what I said she did (but for which she accused me of putting words in her mouth) but who takes her word for it that she 'misspoke' because, as he explains, it would be unreasonable to think otherwise. As I just said to him, that theory is doomed if you really look at what she said, I said, she said, etc. The other person is Barry who has just posted to the effect that he too sees that she got it wrong and thus was unfair to accuse me of putting words in her mouth.

Care to take a go at it? You're a smart guy. Read the posts starting with Sandy's initial diatribe about me and my fellow lawyers' basic dishonesty. Then see Barry's reply, then see how Katie intervened. Did I misconstrue something? Yeah? Tell me about it.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Mon, Feb 26, 2001 at 13:29:39 (GMT)
From: JohnT
Email: jtucker@dircon.co.uk
To: Jim
Subject: Can't do it.
Message:
What I can say, is that you have the skill and passions to win the argument and lose the audience. This is because the audience is human -- we (mostly) respond to feeling-tone as much as logic and semantic content.

You could do something about that.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sun, Feb 25, 2001 at 23:50:25 (GMT)
From: Nigel
Email: fitzroy@liverpool.ac.uk
To: Jim
Subject: By the way, Nige -- care to prove me wrong?
Message:
Haven't seen the whole thread - I usually just dip in here and there for a chuckle at CD's 'answers'. Off home now, but will have a read through in the morning..
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sun, Feb 25, 2001 at 23:56:27 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Nigel
Subject: It's inactive (if not censored altogether) (nt)
Message:
gggggg
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sun, Feb 25, 2001 at 23:36:17 (GMT)
From: JHB
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Barry also said the the argument was lame!
Message:
Which is a natural human reaction to it.

John.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sun, Feb 25, 2001 at 23:54:45 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: JHB
Subject: Lame?
Message:
Lame? OF COURSE it's lame! The whole thing is lame. I don't dispute that for a second.

But so what? Sometimes you get to do cool things, sometimes you have to do lame ones. Look, Katie accused me of putting words in her mouth then defied me to find the post(s) that supported what I'd said. I did just that and she lied about it. Worse, she ridiculed me further as if it was bizarre that I'd even want to clear the matter up. It was okay for her to start a post 'Quit putting words in my mouth, Jim'. It was okay for her to sternly challenge me to back up what I said but it just wasn't okay for me to follow through. Fuck that shit!

Anyway, John, I'm still waiting to see if you can get past the 'boredom' and make your case. You already agreed with me that it appeared that Katie did indeed say I don't admit being wrong. You and I broke ranks on whether or not to accept her explanation that she really didn't mean to say that. That she was thinking of other things and not what she was actually responding to in Barry's post when she wrote what she wrote.

What a laughable crock of shit if you think of it! Here's Sandy giving me shit for being a typical unscrupulous lawyer who is dishonest and never fair in the face of contrary opinions. Barry posts one thing in my defence, one simple point, and Katie says 'that's not how we see him' Then she says that she WASN'T talking about that? Like what? I guess she didn't read Sandy's post first either? She just coincidentally joined in on a discussion without knowing what was being discussed? Ha ha ha ...

And then the kicker, her bullshit about 'posts', trying to say that she was referring to Barry's posts, plural, when in fact it was my posts -- the ones everyone knows me by -- that she had referred to that way.

And you were going to tell me what? That she didn't mean anything. Misunderstanding, misunderstanding, misunderstanding, Katie, nice, nice, nice, mush, mush, mush ..... yeah, sure. What was your confidence level that she's telling the truth? 99% you say?

Funny.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sun, Feb 25, 2001 at 22:52:54 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: DC
Subject: Shut up, you worm!
Message:
Sincere is NOT 'the feeling you get when you feel sincere'.

Sincere, says Oxford, is:

1) free from pretence or deceit; the same in reality as in appearance. 2) genuine, honest, frank.

You knew that you were lying when you said that Maharaji never warned us to mistrust the mind and lying, I'd suggest, is inconsistent with sincerity.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sun, Feb 25, 2001 at 22:59:17 (GMT)
From: DC
Email: DC@redcrow.demon.co.uk
To: Jim
Subject: Excuse me - who are you talking to?
Message:
Me or the other guy ;)
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sun, Feb 25, 2001 at 23:15:48 (GMT)
From: Forum Admin
Email: None
To: DC
Subject: DC does not appear to be CD
Message:
DC,

Joining a debate which includes CD, using the name DC, is bound to cause confusion as you are not a regular poster here. Maybe a short introduction would be a good idea?

Forum Admin

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sun, Feb 25, 2001 at 23:20:57 (GMT)
From: DC
Email: DC@redcrow.demon.co.uk
To: Forum Admin
Subject: A short introduction
Message:
I am a very regular poster (have even used 'DC' before). Sorry about any confusion. Thought the spoof was transparent and the mailbox a giveaway..? Perhaps not.

Won't do it again - promise.
Larkin

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sun, Feb 25, 2001 at 23:25:56 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: DC
Subject: Cute ..... I owe you one
Message:
Good one, Nige, but why would I ever read email addresses? Anyway, sure, funny. In retrospect I have to say that I thought that was a bit much even for a worm like CD to say that 'sincere is the feeling one gets when one's sincere' But not by much, I guess. Obviously I fell for it. Cute.
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sun, Feb 25, 2001 at 04:21:56 (GMT)
From: CD
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: who
Message:
I don't think I have a fan club.
Did you have a dream last night?
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sun, Feb 25, 2001 at 07:44:12 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: CD
Subject: I just mean those who think you're sincere (nt)
Message:
ggggg
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sun, Feb 25, 2001 at 02:02:41 (GMT)
From: Barry
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: He didn't!(nt)
Message:
ggggg
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sun, Feb 25, 2001 at 00:41:58 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: I meant 'moldy warp' not Helen (nt)
Message:
fffff
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sat, Feb 24, 2001 at 17:58:21 (GMT)
From: Helen
Email: None
To: moldy warp
Subject: The crazy mind
Message:
I agree. If you don't know what your mind is saying, and you just cover it over by going to that 'happy place' all the time, I think it makes for a nervous system disaster. There comes a time when all of us have to stop sucking a tthe brest of meditation and solve our very real adult problems and then our mind becomes a tool that can really help us and others. And if Mr. Mind has been flattened out by years of meditaion, one just turns into a mushy mushpot only ready to roll over and play dead when forced with making a real decision. I think Maharaji's view of the mind is a load of crap.
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sat, Feb 24, 2001 at 21:25:26 (GMT)
From: CD
Email: None
To: Helen
Subject: The crazy mind
Message:
>There comes a time when all of us have to stop sucking a tthe brest of meditation and solve our very real adult problems

Ever read any Napolean Hill books?
Yes, 'Think and Grow Rich' is the title of the most famous one.
The content of the book may suprise you.

There is also the saying: 'Now stop and take a deep breath'

What I remember M saying was:
Yes, there would always be lots of problems. And if there weren't not any you would be dead. I never heard him say not to work on trying to solve practical everyday problems. He did say to not forget that your everyday problems were not priority #1 in your life.

CD

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sun, Feb 25, 2001 at 08:13:49 (GMT)
From: Connie
Email: None
To: CD
Subject: The ever changing mind
Message:
Dear CD, you said:

'What I remember M saying was:
Yes, there would always be lots of problems. And if there weren't not any you would be dead. I never heard him say not to work on trying to solve practical everyday problems. He did say to not forget that your everyday problems were not priority #1 in your life.'

From my perspective and memory, WHAT HE SAID ABOUT THE MIND HAS CHANGED MANY TIMES OVER THE YEARS, also what he said about problems. The same in regards to what knowledge is. The list is endless. What he verbally said yesterday about these things, was not what he said tomorrow or today.

He did say what you quoted, AND also what others quoted. Today words are being used like serious, dangerous, going over cliffs, web, and that big one unconsciousness, oh sorry, synchronize, I mean team player.

All the different interpretations and changes left me with an uncertainty as to what he actually meant and wanted, and in what context they should be placed, or what 'understanding' I should have of them in view of 'knowledge'. For years I welcomed having the concepts that I created challenged and broken, but really it is hard to even form a concept or get a grip on it when every five minutes it changes, always feeling like you are playing catch up, never quite intergrating or appreciating any of the 'lessons' from having those concepts confronted.

I see that fundamentally I have not been encouraged to trust my own perceptions, and frequently resorted to parroting what he said about things, not my own words or understanding. As well he and knowledge were greater than me, and he being the, this word has also changed over the years, Satguru, Perfect Master, Guru Maharaj Ji, Maharaj Ji, Maharaji, Master, Filament, knew better than I. He said many times that it is essential to listen to him so he could take away the confusion and concepts that we naturally fall into. I found it hard to have clarity when it was changing all the time about what the mind, master, knowledge, devotion/gratitude, premie/devotee/student was because of what he is saying. After 28 years I just felt exhausted and fractured. And I know I really tried. I was one of those people that while trying to feel from my heart also really listened and thought about what he said, so I could be a better what ever.

Back to the mind, I know I have been very INFLUENCED by what he has said about the mind over the years, I believe the fundamental message is still the same about it, as is the message about knowledge and him.

Respectfully
C

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sun, Feb 25, 2001 at 08:20:26 (GMT)
From: Connie
Email: None
To: CD
Subject: Sorry, wrong quote, still getting hang of posting
Message:
Hope you get the general gist

C

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sun, Feb 25, 2001 at 09:53:39 (GMT)
From: Thelma
Email: None
To: Connie
Subject: Connie, you go get em girl
Message:
Good one for you. The urug has been stuffing our heads with HIS concepts, the meanderings of HIS unutterably dull and tedious mind for tooo many years.
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sun, Feb 25, 2001 at 04:26:41 (GMT)
From: Helen
Email: None
To: CD
Subject: The crazy mind
Message:
I would no sooner read a book called 'Think and Grow Rich' than fly to the moon. The title alone would be a big turn off to me. What did you find so great about it? Is he talking about strategizing how to make one's money grow, and thinking it through logically, or some new agey visualization kind of stuff? If the former, I can respect that.

i went to a Unity church for awhile where they said that if you really focused on becoming rich for 18 seconds it would happen. I tried it during my brisk 3 mile walk. I thunk so hard on becoming rich my eyes almost popped out of my skull. Alas, it didn't work.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Mon, Feb 26, 2001 at 06:45:58 (GMT)
From: Scott T.
Email: None
To: Helen
Subject: The crazy mind
Message:
Helen:

i went to a Unity church for awhile where they said that if you really focused on becoming rich for 18 seconds it would happen. I tried it during my brisk 3 mile walk. I thunk so hard on becoming rich my eyes almost popped out of my skull. Alas, it didn't work.

You were behind the curve. That eye popping stuff is only new once. Some woman a year or two ago made a lot of money doing it in TV commercials. You have to concentrate on 'the next big thing' before it becomes 'the last big thing.'

--Scott

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sat, Feb 24, 2001 at 21:28:00 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: CD
Subject: Yeah? Well do you remember THIS too?
Message:
Mind has to be conquered...

It’s like, mind doesn't want to leave you, because he loves you so much. He really loves you. But you have to overcome that. Because mind is supposed to be a thing which you are supposed to overrule: not mind ruling you, but you ruling mind. Because the whole reason of this world being so unsatisfied is the mind itself. And if you have conquered it, you have conquered the world. The whole, whole, whole, world ! There's nothing left more to be conquered.

You can't even imagine what the mind will do to you, but it'll try it’s level best to stop you. And this is where many people freak out. A pilot expecting a break of sound, if as soon as his plane starts like kind of shaking or anything like that, he pulls back his throttles, he will never reach there. Just keeps on going. There will be certainly a point where the plane will go like that, and then it'll smooth out, ..... and then there will be no sound at all. That sound that is troubling you so much will be left far, far behind. Before you can even listen to it, you are going to be ahead completely ahead of it. And then it's so beautiful !

(February 19, 1974 - Chicago)

So premies, this mind is going to play so many more tricks on you. That's what it's supposed to do. But if you keep on doing Meditation, Satsang, and Service, it's got no chance .... It'll play hide and seek, it'll play anything, it'll do anything.

We should all be sad-proof...

But if we keep hangin' on, just keep hangin' on, that's all you need to do. Just keep hanging on there, and everything will be fine. This is how our mind is. If we are talking to our minds all the times, if we are imagining our mind all the time, if we're trying to think of our mind all the time, if we are not going to ignore it, the mind will think : 'Oh, so you care about me. So you're going to get it. If you think I am there, I’d better be there ! I'll show my face to you !' And then it'll be there all the time. But what you can do is completely ignore it, and instead really understand what Satsang is ... and really really try to do Service.

Question: You see, I was thinking when children are violent in front of you, it is very difficult not to be affected.

Answer: See, when fire burns, everything is affected. Only those materials which are fire-proof are not affected by fire. Why shouldn't we be sad-proof ? Then no sadness can come and touch us. We should all be sad-proof.

Question: It is bad to feel sad about things ?

Answer :Yes, because sadness was not created originally. The origin of anything was happiness, and sadness was created by man when Adam and Eve betrayed God. That's when sadness was created; and Adam and Eve became sad then, because they had to separate from God. So why should man be sad ?

People are sad because somebody dies, but why be sad ?

They aren't out of the world, they are in the world somewhere. Probably they are getting rest. So nobody should be sad; everybody should he happy. There is no cause for anybody to be sad within the world.

Evil is the son of man...

Q: Does evil come from our mind ?

Answer: Right ! Exactly. Do you know, the evil is the son of man that comes to mind, through mind, from mind !

Q: Then it is not real ?

Ans: Not at all. The thing which is real is so glorious, so glorious, it cannot be explained. It has got so much truth in it that wherever it drops in, man is completed intoxicated there - not with wine, not with rum, not with beer, but with that alcohol which Jesus Christ used to take and be intoxicated by it all day. And this is the alcohol that is within us ! That is the alcohol which makes us intoxicated, and whatever devil is within us, we forget him, and he goes out.

It is just anti-dote to that alcohol which we drinks here. We just forget who we are when we drink the alcohol of the world, but in this alcohol we know who we are. We forget everything outside, but we know who we are.

And this is divine intoxication which all the saints taken, and all the disciples take ! If they do not take this intoxication, they won't be existing very much longer.

Q: Why is there a creation ? Why is there suffering ?

Ans: Sufferings come because of what we do. You can't reap mangoes out of thorns, can you? Can you sow thorns and reap mangoes ? Whatever you sow, so shall you reap. If you sow good, if you do good, you shall reap good. If you do bad, you shall reap bad. Whatever bad a man did, he gains a lot of suffering out of it. And whatever good he did, be gains that much good.

See, this is one of the most important things that premies are not happy. And why they are not happy ? Because they are always thinking about something. And it's like, they say, « Well, it isn't bad to think, because I am thinking about the right type of thing.' But thing is that you are thinking too much, and like the whole of your time is spent thinking.

When we start to clean a room, at first the dust is thrown all about. We see dust in the air, and it may be uncomfortable and confusing, but soon the dust settles down, everything becomes crystal clear !

Overcome the illusion of mind...

Q: How can we completely overcome the illusion of mind ?

Ans: Illusion was not created by God, so it can be very easily fixed, by Meditation, by Service and by Satsang. The three are anti-dotes. They are anti-tablets to the other three — illusion, delusion and pollution, whatever you call it. If you want illusion taken away from you very quickly, try these three things at a time - Meditation, Satsang and Service. If you can do Meditation, it is more than enough to carry your illusion from you, but it takes some time. But if you do Meditation and Service, all the delusion and pollution will be carried away ! Because these things are what make the windows very misty.

(November 27, 1973 - Denver)

EVERYONE who begins on the path of devotion looks like a devotee, but he alone is worthy of the Name, who continues even when hard times come upon him.

THE mind is a snake and treasure is behind it. The snake lives over the treasure, so if you want that treasure, you will have to kill that snake, and killing the snake is not an easy job.

THAT’S the most important time you get in your life. You know that ? Because that's where Knowledge is busy fighting the mind. That is the point. And some premies just kind of get freaked out, and they leave it. Man, if you just leave it right then and there, you're gone ! No good then. Just meditate - keep meditating.

THIS is really something I must tell you. Sometimes premies are meditating, and they are fine. They really have beautiful experiences. And then suddenly it just starts fading away. They are getting confused, they are getting more confused.

Mind is like handcuffs...

WHEN there is Agya, and we cannot determine, there is no need to be confused.... And there is the mind. It's workin' 24 hours, like hell.

THE mind keeps the secret that you are something divine away from you.

I have been doing quite a few researches with handcuffs, and apparently it seems like, handcuffs are like this mind. The harder you press it, the tighter it gets on you. And that's the whole point of handcuffs ; to limit you. And that handcuff is just like a mind. There it is, that handcuff is inside of you which has completely limited you.

To be in truth, to seek for excellence, you have to be so quick. If you want to be elevated quicker, what should we do ? In the case of the balloon, what would we do if we want to get higher ? Decrease the sand, and if you can in five minutes, the more we decrease the sand, the more we are elevated. In the same way, this mind is a very heavy weight, and the pity is this: that this mind lies right on top and always depresses a man. If it were on the toes, you'd have no worry at all. But this mind always depresses you, presses you down, and thus you cannot be elevated. So remove the mind, and you'll be right up !

When your mind is finished, to experience that feeling will be very far out ! Because we are elevated, and when we are elevated the mind is all right. Have you seen the big balloons that you sit on ? When you decrease the air, they start coming down, and then when you want to go higher, you take out some more sand, more sand, and more sand, and then you are absolutely elevated.

In the same way, our mind is the sand, our body is the balloon and the sitter is the soul. The soul wants to go and join with God. Mind is sand, this body is the balloon that is floating around.

I mean if it rains, that means it's going to be clear. Because all the rains, the clouds - there is nothing more, and just sweep away ! And everything is beautiful !

Premies are confused because Knowledge is working...

AND plus, if there is a confusion within inside of us, which is like, which sometimes premies really get confused, don't bother. Really take it easy. Because you know, Knowledge is working. Because it's just throwing all of that crap out of you - completely. Throwing the complete mind out of you. And it's going to be beautiful, it's going to be clear.

IT’S like you have laser beam. And with a laser beam you can cut through anything. But if you are focusing on the refrigerators, these bolts are not going to burn, these beams are not going to burn. You have to focus it right there, where you want to burn it - at the pin point, and then it'll just start burning. It'll start from a point, and then just burn the whole thing. And then it's burnt.

And this is exactly how the Knowledge is - it's like a laser beam. And you've got to focus it to that crazy mind, and it's going to start from a point and then just burn the whole mind out - completely whole mind out !

(November 27, 1973 - Denver)

Minds makes us appreciate Knowledge...

NOW, I would just like to caution you about something, and that is this mind....You see, everything is here for a purpose. Therefore, mind has a purpose, too. The service the mind has is to distract you from Knowledge, from the true experience. Why ? There is a definite reason for it. Why does night-time come ? Why is there a sunrise, and why is there a sunset ? Because that really makes us appreciate when that sun comes out ! Night-time really, really makes us appreciate the sun.

So premies, that is the reason for mind. What mind does is, it puts us into so much illusion, so much delusion, that it really makes us appreciate Knowledge. It puts us into so much misery, so much pain within inside of our heart, that we really, really try to experience what that Truth is..........

SINCE mind's service is to distract you, to put you into confusion, to confuse you more and more, what happens is, when you receive Knowledge; and then listen to Satsang, do Service and do Meditation, mind sees this giant army coming up to it - that's Knowledge......

WHAT the mind does when it sees that, it split the scene. But what mind is doing is, it went away, split the scene, and now it's sitting down and designing a method to get to you, to do its job, to put you back where it's supposed to put you.

It waits, and waits, and waits ...

Jai Satchitanand, Premie Ji !

WHAT mind does is, it comes around; and slowly, slowly, slowly, very gradually, it takes it's position. You see ? It comes along and says, 'Jai Satchitanand, Premie Ji ! Isn't everything beautiful ?' I mean, that is something you want to hear. So when mind says, 'Knowledge is beautiful', you don't deny it. You say, 'Right !' And you let it in. Boom ! It's penetrated. It's inside of you. It's there. And you didn't even know it, it came so smooth !

Because, you see, it's a Professional. It is his job, his duty, to keep a man always confused - from one thing to another thing, to another thing, to another thing.

This is why this world stands where it stands now. I mean, look at the situation of this world. Where it stands is because of its mind. The mind is crazy.

(July, 1975 - Caracas)

(The Sayings of Guru Maharaj Ji, Vol. 3 pages 7-15, Published by Divine United Organisation, Shri Sant Yogashram, Hans Marg, Mehrauli, New Delhi-110030)

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sat, Feb 24, 2001 at 21:41:20 (GMT)
From: CD
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: This one, yes!
Message:
>M: 'You can't even imagine what the mind will do to you, but it'll try it’s level best to stop you. And this is where many people freak out. A pilot expecting a break of sound, if as soon as his plane starts like kind of shaking or anything like that, he pulls back his throttles, he will never reach there. Just keeps on going. There will be certainly a point where the plane will go like that, and then it'll smooth out, ..... and then there will be no sound at all. That sound that is troubling you so much will be left far, far behind. Before you can even listen to it, you are going to be ahead completely ahead of it. And then it's so beautiful !'

I have had this experience when meditating.
Attempting to become quiet I experienced my ideas whirling around almost out of control.
After a while of focusing and letting the ideas do their thing, a place was reached where I felt a fear of letting go and falling into an endless sort of space.
When I did have the faith to let go of my fear and doubt, I had an experience of great tranquility. I felt something that was not my ideas and no idea was there to distract me.

-----------------------------------------------------
I am not here to defend or interpret Ms words.
I am not saying that everything he said is exactly correct.

I do have the impression that you have misconstrued much of what he was trying to convey.

The ultimate test has always been: If you meditate do you experience anything of value?
If you don't, don't do it.

CD

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sun, Feb 25, 2001 at 02:17:54 (GMT)
From: Barry
Email: None
To: CD
Subject: CD! ARE YOU A PREMIE STILL OR WHAT??
Message:
No sweat. There are lots of benifits to meditating, and their are many ways to do it. Every day we put this in the shopping cart, leave that on the shelf. Why are you even defending your goofy guru at all. If it's just a case of- you dig some things some one teaches you, but not all of them...well what the fuck? Why don't you just come out and say it! ' I am not a premie anymore. I realise no human being is a god, or has a direct line to one. This whole thing I've gone through was because I wanted to find peace, I just made a mistake in my judgment.' Fruit loops or Cornflakes?
Sometimes their all bad choises. Forgive yourself and find your strength to go on. We come in alone. We go out the same.Their is no way around it. This asshole is getting rich on poeple's lonliness and misery in the mortal world. Plane and simple!
Your friend Barry.
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sun, Feb 25, 2001 at 04:20:14 (GMT)
From: CD
Email: None
To: Barry
Subject: WHAT??
Message:
Take care of your own business and self.
Sounds like you could use positive direction other than trying to berate me or M.
Get your own shit together before you start telling me how to improve myself and what to do.
Most famous musicians have much more money than M. Do you hate them too? You shouldn't.
You know nothing about M except what Jim has told you. You have mixed this with your past and come to conclusions.
Very shakey methodology and dangerous too.
I think you are a better person down deep. Share that part of yourself.

CD

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Mon, Feb 26, 2001 at 00:35:23 (GMT)
From: moldy warp
Email: None
To: CD
Subject: on berating M
Message:
But this IS a site on which people will berate M because of the bad effect they believe, with obvious justification, that he has had on their lives. DON'T YOU GET THAT. If you think it is our 'minds' that are berating M then why are you joining in - remember M saying that you can't fight the mind. If you think it is not our 'minds' but our 'true selves' that are berating M then why are you challenging us. As YOU brought up Christian stuff near the top of this thread. may I remind you about the bit about turning the other cheek!
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sun, Feb 25, 2001 at 04:39:15 (GMT)
From: Barry
Email: None
To: CD
Subject: Musicians don't make money from......
Message:
other peoples lonliness and misery. They just sell art to who ever wants it. Unlike M who sells salvation and then manipulates your brains into mush so he can squeeze as much coin as he can out of anyone who buys it! Deep down I think your in alot of pain right now, but what do I know? Your right, I can't and shouldn't, tell you what to do when my own shit stinks, but at least i know my shit stinks! Every once in a while I take a good wiff just to clairify my own healthiness! Maybe you should try it. It really confirms the fact we are all the same. Does guru mufflebutt's shit stink? Oh ya, it sure does! I'm not going to bug you anymore for a while. Sorry if I've bummed you out. later bud.
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sat, Feb 24, 2001 at 21:58:09 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: CD
Subject: Foul ball, liar!
Message:
I am not here to defend or interpret Ms words.

Then why do you do it? It was you, not me, who said that he never trained us to mistrust the mind. What was that if not a pathetic and lying attempt to defend his words?

I am not saying that everything he said is exactly correct.

No? Tell us what part wasn't then. Because, so far, it looks as if you don't have a problem with anything he said. So what? What was he less than 'exactly correct' about?

I do have the impression that you have misconstrued much of what he was trying to convey.

Good! Then you're now calling me either a liar myself or, at least, mistaken. Put up or shut up. Well?

The ultimate test has always been: If you meditate do you experience anything of value?
If you don't, don't do it.

You have no right to try to reframe the issue, not when you're being accused of lying. Deal with that shit first and do so fairly, thoroughyl and don't be a worm for a change. Isd that too much to ask?

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sat, Feb 24, 2001 at 22:33:12 (GMT)
From: CD
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: whack
Message:
You totally ignored the main content of my previous message where I gave my interpretation of a quote by M that you posted.
Instead you seem more interested in personal character bashing.
Good luck. You're gonna lose at that one.

>Good! Then you're now calling me either a liar myself or, at least, mistaken. Put up or shut up. Well?

You don't seem to grok the concept of 'disagreement'.

CD

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sun, Feb 25, 2001 at 02:20:44 (GMT)
From: Barry
Email: None
To: CD
Subject: It's just-your so-sitten on the fence!(nt)
Message:
ggggg
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sun, Feb 25, 2001 at 00:32:46 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: CD
Subject: You're weazling
Message:
John's right. 'Disagreement' is not an excuse to not have to admit indisputable facts, much as you and Sandy might like that.

But look what you're doing here? Rather than simply deal directly with the issue -- did Maharaji or did he not warn us to mistrust our minds? -- you ofer some sideways 'interpretation'. Fuck you!

I've said this before but I'll say it again: YOU ARE PLAYING GAMES HERE! You're a software consultant / programmer kind of guy, right? You tell me how you could ever last one day in business if you avoided questions like you do here. You know the answer to that. The answer is that you couldn't. Your clients ask you if the job is going to be finished by Wednesday, you can't get away with saying that 'it's a beautiful piece of programming' or some such nonsense. You have to answer them directly. Come Wednesday, if the job's not finished and they ask you about it, you're going to fall flat on your face side-stepping their inquiries like you do here.

Now this question of Maharaji warning us not to trust our minds is not a complex one. Read those quotes. Without even knowing what this so-called 'mind' is you could answer it. Substitute 'x' for 'mind' throughout and it's just as easy. Whatever else you might say, whatever red herrings you might try to throw out to obscure the discussion, the fact is, yes, he did indeed warn us to not trust 'x'. You knew that twenty years ago, you knew that ten years ago and you knew that two days ago when I asked you. You're a liar, clear as day.

And what, Mr. Liar, do you think of the various 'defences' being offered on your behalf? Katie says that there's probably no use rubbing your nose in, like what's that going to accomplish. Sandy says that it'll just drive you deeper into The Nile. And these are your DEFENDERS! What do you think about all this, CD? Or are you afraid to answer that question honestly too?

You're a creep. I don't care what kind of politically correct, be-nice-to-premies attitudes circulate. You're a creep, and yes, it would make me feel so fucking good to know that I made you feel bad about yourself for even a second. You deserve it.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sun, Feb 25, 2001 at 04:10:05 (GMT)
From: CD
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: You beast of the devil
Message:
>Now this question of Maharaji warning us not to trust our minds is not a complex one.

I just gave you an explanation of how I related to one of the definitive quotes you presented to prove your point (jet pilot breaking sound barrier).
You just don't seem to get it that the words carry multiple meanings depending on who interprets them and which day they interpret them depending on how much tequila they drank that day.

>You're a creep. I don't care what kind of politically correct, be-nice-to-premies attitudes circulate. You're a creep, and yes, it would make me feel so fucking good to know that I made you feel bad about yourself for even a second. You deserve it.

You don't make me feel bad.
But it sounds like you are losing your mind.
Just the thing you want to hold on to.
You are developing a bad attitude into a worse one.
Try to take care of that.

CD

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sun, Feb 25, 2001 at 08:18:12 (GMT)
From: JohnT
Email: None
To: CD
Subject: CD = beast of the devil
Message:
Jim's right CD. You are one contemptible goof ball when it comes to thinking about m's scene.

You make the simplest logical errors, evade the clearest points, and merely snipe and sneer. It is very unpleasant to witness. You have no right to parade your stinking thinking and emotional difficulties the way you do. If you want help dealing with all that nasty shit, fine - you are in the right place. Otherwise you really ought to piss off.

Jim has suggested you do a formal check on your thinking. Treat terms like mind as used by Rawat as undefined terms (he's big on being undefined lately, right?) - and then just consider, semantically and formally what attitudes he urged (as the greatest incarnation of Krishna ever) that his devotees take towards this thing referred to as mind.

Thing is CD, you're rumbled. It just remains for you to see it.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sun, Feb 25, 2001 at 20:59:47 (GMT)
From: CD
Email: None
To: JohnT
Subject: right
Message:
>Jim's right CD. You are one contemptible goof ball when it comes to thinking about m's scene.

Easy to brand somebody with a nasty label who you don't agree with and don't understand.
What right have you to be passing judgement on me in public?
Who the hell are you?

You know very little about 'the m scene' except for second hand news.
Cetainly you can get an impression from reading this forum. But its a limited view. You don't feel the full impact of all the emotions and years of experience of the people who are posting messages. This includes why I have come to my own conclusions. This is important missing input to your impression.

CD

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sun, Feb 25, 2001 at 22:26:16 (GMT)
From: Jerry
Email: None
To: CD
Subject: Let me ask you again, CD
Message:
Just who is M to you? You talk at length about the 'experience' being the bottom line. How does M fit into that? I already told you what I thought about the explanation that he's a 'reminder'. That doesn't float with me. What I'm curious about is why you won't just outright say that you believe he is the epitome of what Knowledge can do for a person.

When I was a premie, I thought Maharaji had it all, that he was an entirely enlightened human being, and that if I stuck close and followed his 'agya', I'd reach the high ground, too. Is that why you keep contact? Or have you already reached the highest ground, and now just keep in touch out of gratitude?

If you don't answer, I'll just assume you can't be bothered. Sorry if you don't think this is a topic you find worthwhile. I'm really interested in hearing your reasons for maintaining contact with Maharaji, just to clear the air, once and for all, why you think Maharaji is important. Sorry if any previous animosity I've expressed makes you reluctant to respond. I'll try to be good, really I will.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Mon, Feb 26, 2001 at 07:21:00 (GMT)
From: CD
Email: None
To: Jerry
Subject: allow me to introduce myself
Message:
>Just who is M to you? You talk at length about the 'experience' being the bottom line. How does M fit into that?

M is a teacher.
I don't know more about M than that.
Don't know what his head space is or what he is up to in his daily affairs.

In many ways M packages up in words things that I also believe. And his words can have contradictions and misunderstanding mixed in with what I consider great insight. They are words. The observer will take from the words what impression the words strike at the moment. Different people are struck with different imrpessions of the same words. But usually when I listen to his talks what he says strikes a chord in me and sometimes I even become aware of myself observing the situation of my existence as I am listening.

I did real well in University studies including history, psychology, political science, economics and high level math and systems engineering (7 years at UCSD). I am doing quite well today building commercial web sites and database systems. Still I find what M has to say to be worthwhile. What I mean by that is that I am well educated and not a dummy. Some people may consider my ideas odd but that is because they see things differently, not because I am ignorant. I expect differences of opinion. I certainly do not expect everyone to view M the same way. Especially when we try to construct our theories I expect to see a wide range of variety. I have viewed M in many ways myself and had many theories.
Believe it, I have an ego about as big as anyones on this forum. Certainly I consider my ideas worthwhile. But I also have a strong sense of skepticism about my own opinions because I know that there are things in this world that logic can not conquer. Many adavanced fields of math and science tend to highlight how much we don't know.

I just had a recollection. A big part of my sense of things comes from a severe accident I had at about age 14. I almost died from a head injury. During the years after I had quite a few times when things just didn't seem quite real. It really made me wonder about what really is real. Not much different than that story M used to tell about the King waking up from a dream and wondering if he was still dreaming.
I am going off a bit here and have to get back to my work.
I have my reasons for what I believe. I am turning 50 this year. Thats a lot of time to think about stuff. And I am good at thinking which may suprise many people who don't really know me.
And yes, I will say that many thing that M has said over the years have made a lot of sense to me. The answer is not yes or no am I a premie or do I consider what M does as a teacher to be of value. The questions I see are much bigger than what that will answer and much more important.

CD


Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Mon, Feb 26, 2001 at 20:08:12 (GMT)
From: Jerry
Email: None
To: CD
Subject: Thanks for the reply, CD
Message:
You said a lot of things that I could respond to, but I like to keep it as short as possible, so let me just respond to one point.

M is a teacher.
I don't know more about M than that.
Don't know what his head space is or what he is up to in his daily affairs.

If M is a teacher, he should have a good grasp of what it is he's teaching. As such, his 'head space' should be in that place he tirelessly speaks about. Otherwise, he's just talking of something he knows nothing of. And if his head is in that 'space', than he must be a pretty peaceful, contented human being. He shouldn't just be teaching about peace. He should be oozing it, since he's the guy who's so much in the know about it.

Now, what I'd like to know, if it doesn't matter to you where Maharaji's 'head space' is, say, if he's an alcoholic or a womanizer, as has been alleged on this forum, than how do you know if he's got anything to teach? Anybody can preach about love, peace, what life is, God, etc., but who's really qualified to teach us about those thngs, if not somebody who's life is brimming with them? That's why I have to wonder if you're thinking clearly about this, CD. YOU HAVE TO CARE HOW MAHARAJI LIVES HIS LIFE! If there is evidence that the life he is living is not in keeping with the things he teaches, than he has nothing to teach, now does he? Unless you think an alcoholic is an expert on how to find peace.

So, to me, the way I see it with premies who don't want to know about Maharaji's personal affairs, it's because they're afraid of what they might find out. If every shred of doubt about Maharaji's alcoholism was wiped from your mind, I guarantee you would no longer be a premie because, personally, I think you do care about Maharaji's private affairs. You're just in a position where you can regard it as hearsay, but if ever that day comes that all doubt is removed, it's going to rock your boat, CD. You're only kidding yourself if you think it won't.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Tues, Feb 27, 2001 at 02:19:59 (GMT)
From: Connie
Email: None
To: Jerry
Subject: Jerry, I agree with what you said, as well
Message:
I take into account that many times maharaji has said or implied that it doesn't matter what he does and he really cares.

I remember hearing that in Malibu once he told those around the dinner table that it didn't matter what he did or didn't do (eg. meditate) because he was the master/guru and nobody could ever understand it or the reasons he had. This is often the stand taken by those, however minimally, involved.

He has also periodically talked about and given examples of how mean other past masters were compared to him, giving the impression he really cared and was kind. He often gave the example of his father saying to someone he wasn't happy with, that, how many hairs the guy had on his head would be the time (or lifetimes?) it would take him to get k. I don't think the guy was bald. Then he would say how lucky we were that the current master (ie him) was not like that.

The above two things can be very powerful on one's being, compounded by time and need, they were with me. I wanted and needed to hear things like that.

C

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sun, Feb 25, 2001 at 21:55:28 (GMT)
From: JohnT
Email: None
To: CD
Subject: fighting with labels
Message:
... but what we're talking about right now is not that. We're talking textual analyses here, OK? That's what you are being asked to do.

Hey, you want sympathy and understanding? Right place, wrong guy - like you kinda said, maybe.

Good Luck. Watch out for the Yosemites.

JohnT
- never a premie

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sat, Feb 24, 2001 at 23:40:22 (GMT)
From: Jerry
Email: None
To: CD
Subject: Who is M to you?
Message:
CD,

I don't doubt you just love meditation. But how does Maharaji play into that? Oh, he's a reminder of how beautiful it is, right? And I guess that's nice to hear if the experience he talks about is all you really want to hear about. Gives you something to do I suppose.

But, seriously, isn't Maharaji much more to you than that? Don't you believe that Maharaji is the guy you aspire to be, or to be like, the guy who's reached the highest plateau with Knowledge who you believe, if you just keep in touch with him, you'll hit that plateau, someday, yourself?

Isn't that why you stay in touch with him? Because, honestly, this thing about needing to be reminded to do something you love just doesn't cut it. You think Maharaji is a very special human being, maybe even God in the flesh, don't you? You believe if you lose contact with him, you'll lose your chance to cross that great divide which he has crossed before you, and has now come back to guide you, don't you?

I know this doesn't have anything to do with the current discussion on M, but I'm really curious just who Maharaji is to you. If you'd care to, could you elaborate? Am I on track?

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sat, Feb 24, 2001 at 23:28:36 (GMT)
From: JHB
Email: None
To: CD
Subject: Re: Disagreement
Message:
Chris,

Disagreement, in the context that I think you are using the word, occurs when two people take opposing positions on a question, and it is currently impossible to prove either position. For instance, who was the best heavyweight boxer in his prime, Ali or Tyson? We could agree to disagree on this (if either of us had a position on the question).

But the question of whether Maharaji consistently, over several years, taught us to distrust our minds, is provable! We have the magazines, the tapes, and the videos, that prove this.

So if you take a position the Maharaji did not teach us to mistrust our minds, you are either deliberately, or unconciously, deceiving yourself, or the posters on this forum.

So Chris, do you disagree with this?

John.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sat, Feb 24, 2001 at 18:12:53 (GMT)
From: Daneane
Email: None
To: Helen
Subject: 'perverted'
Message:
I think 'perverted' is the key in Gerry's post. M manipulated some sound principle from elsewhere as he squeezed it into his sick reality. I think there are times when it's best to quiet disturbing thoughts....as simple as counting to ten when you are pissed off or something. I'm not much into division of mind into all those neat little parts with trap doors and all....but I certainly do seem to myself a different person with different outlooks from one mood to another...I can't see anyway to get out of all that...besides trying to lose all conscious thought and submerging myself in that 'knowledge' crap or something.

I think the difference might be knowing the levels of suckitude and incorporating them as life rather than trying to hold them away.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sat, Feb 24, 2001 at 18:05:42 (GMT)
From: gerry
Email: None
To: Helen
Subject: Let's get HAMR'ed then...
Message:
So Helen, you seem to be saying that meditation is not very good at helping us resolve personal problems. I don't know myself, I never got the hang of meditation. I have a hunch you are right.

Check this out when you get time. Let's get HAMR'ed!

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sun, Feb 25, 2001 at 09:01:35 (GMT)
From: JohnT
Email: None
To: gerry
Subject: a personal note
Message:
meditation is not very good at helping us resolve personal problems.

Hi gerry,

Unlike you, I did get into meditation (albeit neither halucinatory (kriya) and not combined with practices to inculcate hero worship (bhakti)). I practised zazen for many years, initially for several hours each day.

Zazen is a buddhist meditation, taught widely in Japan, that is analagous to remembering the holy name, but, at least the way I was taught it, it came largely free of philosophical baggage. One sits comfortably, perhaps in the lotus position, or perhaps just in a chair. The point is to keep the back straight in such a position that no effort is needed to keep the body upright.

Then one breathes slowly and regularly, not from the chest, but from the diaphram. To get deeper, quicker, it is possible to use particular patterns of breathing to, as they say throw strength into the diaphram. You see, as one's body relaxes one could fall asleep. The idea is that muscular tension in the diaphram can kelp keep one awake, even as the rest of the body slowly relaxes.

The combination of immobility; deep relaxation; and focusing on the hypnotic autonomy of one's own breathing can give quite far-out results. The wierdest of these is when the perception of the body disappears, even though one remains wide awake (thanks to the muscular tension in the diaphram). The perception of the body disappears because what we notice is change - if one can remain deeply immobile for long enough, awareness of the body can lessen or vanish!

Anyway, that one is well wierd. It may be perceived as being a point of consciousness in a void of nothingness. I've explained it in some detail to emphasise there is nothing remotely supernatural or spiritual needed to understand what is experienced.

When I came round from this sort of meditation (very rarely as deep or complete as I descibed above) my mind would be much quieter than before. This, at the time, was unquestionably a Good Thing. My mind tends to overactivity even now, and as a delinquent and disturbed youth, its incessant jabbering was just too much to bear, more than once. Zazen, I found, was preferable to spells of outright insanity in state mental hospitals!

BUT, this practice of meditation did not, in itself, resolve the problems that lay behind my delinquency and emotional turmoil. Meditation turned down the volume and kept the storms under control, much like medication might. It did not deal with my underlying difficulties. For that, I turned to counselling and a (good) 12-step group, part of co-dependants anonymous. I found methods such as these improved my self-understanding, and so helped me deal with those 'button pressing situations' that previously would have had me chewing the carpet. Oh! and in time, those situations lost their power to attract me as well!

So I would agree that meditation in itself has little to offer in a theapeutic sense. But it certainly turned down the volume on my turmoil and created the space for more directly efficacious methods to be used. It calmed down the pet spaceship I call my head long enough for it to be trained to be street-legal!

JohnT
- never a premie

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sun, Feb 25, 2001 at 21:15:07 (GMT)
From: CD
Email: None
To: JohnT
Subject: supernatural
Message:
>Anyway, that one is well wierd. It may be perceived as being a point of consciousness in a void of nothingness. I've explained it in some detail to emphasise there is nothing remotely supernatural or spiritual needed to understand what is experienced.

What is 'supernatural'?
How about living on a planet in the middle of an infinite universe for a short period of time in the middle of an endless time.

Maybe you are 'supernatural' if you consider your existence from a certain perspective.

CD

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sun, Feb 25, 2001 at 22:30:15 (GMT)
From: Nigel
Email: None
To: CD
Subject: The big picture, eh?
Message:
In what way is the universe 'infinite'? (A finite amount of stuff occupies a finite amount of space, and 'the universe' refers to the stuff, not to the absence of stuff non-existing elsewhere.)

Why do you say time is endless?

Why call the natural 'supernatural'?

Why follow fatso without one good reason for doing so?

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Mon, Feb 26, 2001 at 08:07:03 (GMT)
From: CD
Email: None
To: Nigel
Subject: The really big picture
Message:
>In what way is the universe 'infinite'? (A finite amount of stuff occupies a finite amount of space

Now you've done it.
Where the hell did you dredge up this trivialization of a universe that goes to where no one has ever gone?
(Except Douglas Adams of course)

>Why do you say time is endless?

Because I can't see the end.
Is a practical observation to an approximation.
Now it is just a theory mind you. Not a fact. All the facts are still not in. In fact, some seem to be missing.

>Why call the natural 'supernatural'?

Sounds good. Santana did OK with it.
Sometimes we need a good scare to know how good we've got it.
Sometimes a new word makes us take notice.

>Why follow fatso without one good reason for doing so?

Don't do it.

CD

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Tues, Feb 27, 2001 at 09:20:06 (GMT)
From: JohnT
Email: None
To: CD
Subject: Routine poetic response
Message:

    Turn and see the spangled gleams of distant suns
    Set far off in deepest velvet black.
    So, unmoving, turn again, upon a point of dark,
    Inside to no-when-where.

    Those flecks of void, between all words
    All thought, behind all feeling and desire,
    Are gates to Formless Realm
    That's like the soil that light and living knowledge
    Somehow resembles into trees and grass and all
    That out of unshaped mud erupt.

    Unmoving, slip inside the void within.
    Our roots are there, as firmly as the Oaks
    Have theirs within the boundless earth.

    No pain, no hate, no broken heart, no strife.
    Nor taste, body; feeling none. No aim.
    Nor anything to fear.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sun, Feb 25, 2001 at 10:12:08 (GMT)
From: Pat Conlon
Email: None
To: JohnT
Subject: Thank you, John T, for that
Message:
Thanks not only for the tips on meditation but also for you sane down-to-earth appraoch to it. Meditation without mental health is actually useless and can be harmful. Many of the more responsible gurus will not teach any form of dhyana yoga (ch'an, zazen) to people who have not first formed a life ethic for themselves and abide by the first yoga - sat yoga - the true religion - being a healthy, happy, balanced human being who follows their conscience and is free of any influence from their unexamined subconscious mind.
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sun, Feb 25, 2001 at 10:52:38 (GMT)
From: JohnT
Email: None
To: Pat Conlon
Subject: Hi Pat, you're up late
Message:
The 12-step program co-dependants anonymous teaches (or the group I was in taught) that spirituality grows out of emotional health.

I believe that is true. Emotionally healthy people may have little interest in ouvert spirituality, but nonetheless exhibit what others would call spiritual values. I mean by this values such as honesty (when ... wrong, promptly admit it); compassion; and responsibility (NOT over-responsibility!!).

One reason that Rawat is, to my mind, a criminally irresponsible and negligent yogi is that he seems unable to see that a healthy spitituality grows out a well balanced emotionality. I think we need not enquire too deeply to understand that the fat fraud is so fucked up himself, he could not possibly understand that!

Rawat continually lectures and preaches as if (he believes that) a student can go straight for spiritual development without first gaining emotional maturity. That is ignorant of him, and does great harm to his followers.

This negligent posturing from Rawat results in his followers changing from sincere seekers after truth into emotionally immature religious bigots. As a yogi he is a fraud and a disgrace.

I wonder when CD will come to understand what has been done to him in the name of enlightenment? My guess is fairly soon ...

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sun, Feb 25, 2001 at 19:41:10 (GMT)
From: Pat Conlon
Email: None
To: JohnT
Subject: John T, eg - his revisionism re the mind
Message:
When the urug arrived 30 years ago he demonized the mind and did so for the next 15 years. CD has said he no longer does and I know that is true. That silly little ignorant Hindu has learned something but at our expense. I can't wait for his American spoilt brat kids to call his bluff and they will.
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sun, Feb 25, 2001 at 22:58:55 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Pat Conlon
Subject: No, Pat, that's not correct
Message:
CD doesn't say that Maharaji 'no longer does [deominze the mind]'. He denies that he ever did so. Big diff.
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Mon, Feb 26, 2001 at 01:57:12 (GMT)
From: Pat Conlon
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: I know Jim
Message:
I have stayed away from you for a couple of days because you were on the war path but don't think I don't know what CD is avoiding and why you are trying to get him to fess up. All the PWKs have excuses such as ''Oh, but he was so young and did not speak English blah blah blah.''

I can't and won't tell you that pushing premies into a corner is wrong because I don't believe that necessarily. I personally can't do it but I know that that is your style and we do need someone to be relentless. I prefer to attack the urug rather than the PWKs.

If you want to take this discussion to a new thread I will be there with you exposing the revisionism and the also the complicity of the current PWKs in this conspiracy but I can't attack CD mostly because I do not know him as well as you do and was not around when the history between you two was created.

But I think you know by now that no matter what other things we may disagree on I will not tolerate this revisonist BS and will fiercely attack anyone who excuses it.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sat, Feb 24, 2001 at 16:40:26 (GMT)
From: moldy warp
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: Narrow escape!
Message:
All you exes - if only you'd spent as much time in meditation as you do on writing on this forum you'd all have realised knowledge by now!
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sun, Feb 25, 2001 at 22:27:42 (GMT)
From: SB
Email: None
To: moldy warp
Subject: Your is wider, yeah...NO!
Message:
If you are talking from your realization I rather be JUST a human being. Premies are pathetics; with a parrot mind they repeat what they themselves don't know. You follow an empty idea and believe you have found something. If it makes you happy believe that crap. I have the right to hate anything that has to do with Greedy Lard, isn't? scram

Proud to be an ex-toe sucker.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Mon, Feb 26, 2001 at 01:52:47 (GMT)
From: moldy warp
Email: None
To: SB
Subject: To SB Your is wider, yeah...NO!
Message:
IT WAS A JOKE.
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Mon, Feb 26, 2001 at 03:57:42 (GMT)
From: Pat Conlon
Email: None
To: moldy warp
Subject: Moldy, vegetarian induced irony deficiency
Message:
Also I think SB uses English as second language. I got your joke and assumed everyone else would and am surprised. But I think you are seeing how easily it is to be misunderstood in this medium without using emotikons which I scorn as a writer because I expect people to hear my tone of voice through the context in which something is written. Also there are some fairly exposed nerves here and quite a few people have put off having a root canal done to remove the cult induced humorlessness.
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Mon, Feb 26, 2001 at 19:10:23 (GMT)
From: moldy warp
Email: None
To: Pat Conlon
Subject: T Pat Conlon
Message:
Thanks Pat. Know wot you mean about exposed nerves. SB got to mine a while ago talking about forum being like a pub where you have to hang out at first and wait to be accepted. Reminded me of having to conform to crap to be accepted in my former premie so-called 'community'.SB and me had a bit of a run-in about that!
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Mon, Feb 26, 2001 at 19:05:55 (GMT)
From: moldy warp
Email: None
To: Pat Conlon
Subject: Moldy, vegetarian induced irony deficiency
Message:
Thanks Pat. Know waht you mean about exposed nerves. SB got to mine awhile ago when talking about the forum being like a pub... where you don't jump in and have to be accepted (at least that's wot i thought he was saying). That brought up my raw nerves about having to conform to crap to be accepted in my long-lost (thank god) premie 'community' SB and i had a bit of a run-in about that.
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Mon, Feb 26, 2001 at 19:57:48 (GMT)
From: Pat Conlon
Email: None
To: moldy warp
Subject: Moldy, misunderstandins happen at warp speed on FV
Message:
I missed your earlier run in with Sb. Probably due to ESL problems.
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sun, Feb 25, 2001 at 13:17:55 (GMT)
From: DeProGram Anand Ji
Email: not given
To: moldy warp
Subject: All Ex's are fully realized beings
Message:
We have fully realized that 'knowledge' is bullshit and MAWAJI
is a fake. Maybe if YOU meditated more you could reach the same level of awareness and achieve True Liberation.
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sun, Feb 25, 2001 at 04:49:20 (GMT)
From: janet
Email: None
To: moldy warp
Subject: i did. that's why i do.n/t
Message:
so there. nyah.
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sat, Feb 24, 2001 at 17:20:19 (GMT)
From: Joy
Email: None
To: moldy warp
Subject: Narrow escape!
Message:
Has anybody ever realized Knowledge? I used to look at Bill Patterson and how devoted he was to M and how much time he spent with him, and figured if HE couldn't do it, how was a lowly soul like myself supposed to manage it? Gave up on the whole idea then and there.

This is much more fun than boring old meditation, anyhow, don't you think?

OT, I must say I love your name, Moldy Warp. Qualifies right up there with Bin Liner, Disculta and Suchabanana as my favorite Forum anonymous names. Some of you guys are clever!

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sat, Feb 24, 2001 at 17:13:16 (GMT)
From: AJW
Email: None
To: moldy warp
Subject: All roads lead to Utrecht.
Message:
moldy warp,

I realised knowledge ages ago. That's why I stopped practising. I got good at it and became in 'that place' all the time.

In fact I am in 'that place' right now. It is called Utrecht.

I write on Forum Five because I want to devote some of my remaining time on earth to a good cause, and help lead our brothers and sisters from the darkness back into the light.

Anth the canal for a higher cause.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sat, Feb 24, 2001 at 17:31:37 (GMT)
From: moldy warp
Email: None
To: AJW
Subject: to AJW - the canal
Message:
I think you as a canal might be the physical manifestation of my left nostril (in which I and the other 2 mes now reside).- see my post to Salam below - I therefore think you should dedicate your life to me (or should I dedicate my life to you???)
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sun, Feb 25, 2001 at 10:17:20 (GMT)
From: AJW
Email: None
To: moldy warp
Subject: It's a long hard path.
Message:
hi moldy,

glad you made it to samhadi's place too.

I've discovered that, due to being incarcerated in a cult for 25 years, my spiritual development has dropped way behind the rest of the human race.

I think we're a bit like the couple who stagger over the finishing line at the marathon 6 hours after everyone else.

Not only were we unfit, we ran 5 miles up a dead end and had to run back again.

As regards me crawling up your nostril, after many years of serious research, I've come to the conclusion that the path of snot is not the way to peace and understanding.

anth who thinks god has a cynical sense of humour

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Tues, Feb 27, 2001 at 00:43:16 (GMT)
From: moldy warp
Email: None
To: AJW
Subject: To AJW It's a long hard path.
Message:
Indeed. The path of snot isnot.
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sat, Feb 24, 2001 at 17:00:54 (GMT)
From: salam
Email: None
To: moldy warp
Subject: what about you?
Message:
Have you realised no-liji? If you have, please tell me, am dying to know. Also do you know if where Nirvana is?
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sat, Feb 24, 2001 at 17:22:14 (GMT)
From: moldy warp
Email: None
To: salam
Subject: To Salam -last communication of realised premie
Message:
I thought it must be obvious by now that I am an enlightened being. Of course, when I say I, I do not mean moldy warp, but the real me , which is no-liji, not me for I have to get myself out of the way first. Then there is my mind, or rather Moldy warp's mind, but that is a seperate entity again. In fact there are 3 of me. And Nirvana resides everywhere (really- I thought you'd know that)- though not, of course, in (or anywhere near)me (when I say 'me' I am of course refering to moldy warp ,and to moldy warp's mind.) You see, I (that is the real me) have to get moldy warp out of the way before......... (sorry corresppondent has disappeared up own left nostril and is no longer capable of earthly communication)
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sun, Feb 25, 2001 at 22:29:53 (GMT)
From: sb
Email: None
To: moldy warp
Subject: I hate superior beings (nt)
Message:
yeap!
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sun, Feb 25, 2001 at 02:20:08 (GMT)
From: salam
Email: None
To: moldy warp
Subject: I know who you are
Message:
You're a pussy monkey.
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Mon, Feb 26, 2001 at 01:58:10 (GMT)
From: moldy warp
Email: None
To: some of you above
Subject: Sense of humour by pass
Message:
Are you suffering from this? 'Narrow Escape' was a JOKE. Get it ??? Don't you lot read any of my other posts??? How can you possibly think I still bow down to the Hamster!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sat, Feb 24, 2001 at 13:10:39 (GMT)
From: AJW
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: I am Freaked Out!.
Message:
I am freaked out.

I have ruined my life. I have done many terrible things.

My crimes are so bad, dear friends from years ago have cut off all contact from me. I risk the safety of my very soul. Ordinary sins, like murder, violence and theft, are wiped from the karmic balance with death. But my crimes are much worse. I will carry the consequences beyond the end of the Universe and into Eternity.

When time is running backwards, and the Creation is ending, all that will be left outside the gates of the infinite kingdom of perfect peace, will be me, Hitler, Stalin, and Margaret Thatcher. St Peter will say, “Margaret, Adolf, Joe, we’ve found three spare places, you can come in.. You only killed a few million people and caused misery for a few million more. Anth, sorry, your crimes were much worse.They weren’t against humanity, but against the All Powerful, All Knowing One Hisveryself. He is so pissed off with you he has invented another, lower level of pain and torture, and extended Eternity, so you will suffer even longer. Your only relief, will be, once every 14, 000,000,000 years, for a few seconds, from far, far away, you’ll hear the sound of every other human soul having fun at the Lords party. This will only make the next 14,000,000,000 even worse.”

I have blown it on every level known to consciousness.

And what were my crimes?

I cancelled my standing order to Captain Rawat and split the money between Greenpeace and Amnesty International.

I stopped sitting down every morning, poking myself in the eye and licking my own snot, believing I was experiencing “God within.”

I stopped going to weekly videos of inane waffle, (broadcast “live” by satellite, only Ł20) stuffed with revelations like,

“Isn’t it good to breath.”

“Being alive is good isn’t it? Much better than being dead eh?”

“Better keep worshiping me or you might forget and start thinking it’s better not to breathe. Where would you be then eh? You’d go red and start to cough. Blimey, next thing you’ll be walking around with a plastic bag on your head. One in. One out. That’s it. Yup, mouth or nose, no problem.”

I started thinking for myself again.

I began to enjoy life without a mental ball and chain.

I stopped lining up to kiss Captain Rawat’s feet.

Friends and family were relieved. But little do they know the terrible price I have to pay. Already my brussel-sprout and carrot soul has begun to rot. I have hit the floor and shattered into so many pieces that they will never be put back together.

What can I do? How can I resolve my plight?

To be honest, life is going very well, and I feel better about myself than I’ve ever done. (A bit like a plant let out of a cupboard).

But I guess I’ll have to pay for it all when I die.

Anth the lost soul.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sun, Feb 25, 2001 at 22:57:50 (GMT)
From: Jerry
Email: None
To: AJW
Subject: I have a way out!
Message:
Anth,

Don't despair! I too once felt it was hopeless; that is, until I found Claudia Williams, Voodoo Priestess. Let me tell you, Anth, there's no magic or curse this woman can't undo. Just light up a cigar and let her do her thing. Maharaji's mojo is powerless when it meets the Rada of the Priestess, Claudia. Ya, mon, the voodoo that she do will save your soul, so don't fret none.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Mon, Feb 26, 2001 at 12:52:01 (GMT)
From: AJW
Email: None
To: Jerry
Subject: Thanks Jerry
Message:
I've signed up for a course on Urban Voodoo by Edgar Cozarinsky. That should sort things out. And if it doesn't reclaim my soul, at least I'll get a cure for warts.

Anth the cursed.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sun, Feb 25, 2001 at 05:51:29 (GMT)
From: janet
Email: None
To: AJW
Subject: what are WE?? chopped liver?
Message:
dont you think you'll have us right along with you? are we any different than you? are we any better? how are we any different?

no, my friend, rest assured, we will have a whole party of us outside those gates. we are in a class by ourselves: we are neither confused, ignorant, blind chasers of the world's maya, nor are we the slaves and brainwashed, deluded victims of the greatest pretender of all time.

no, we are beyond the two worlds. we have been and known both, and we have ascended beyond them. we have uncommon awareness. we are special.

if we are kept out of heaven, it will be because we have a valuable and rare gift to be used. we might be assigned to stay among the people of the world and be examples of how not to get conned into religion and cults and materialism. heaven would be wasted on us. we've already been there, done that, and we would be bored shitless all day with nothing to do.

think about it.
you have your average person who doesnt know everything, but is pretty sure theres a god or a heaven, or at least that there is good in life, but their not knowing weakens them.

then you have your fanatical recruits who are absolutely certain they have seen and known the ONLY One in person, who are irrevocably sure their way is IT,and whose zeal is ultimately destined to be their downfall. they're not all there, and that will be thier fatal flaw.

then there's us.

we are more whole, better versed, more grounded,, have a bigger grasp of humanity and realism than either of those two categories. we are more resilient, stronger, saner, healthier, wiser, and uncommonly experienced. we know more than both camps put together.

heaven doesnt need us.
earth does.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sun, Feb 25, 2001 at 10:33:11 (GMT)
From: AJW
Email: None
To: janet
Subject: My long dark night is coming to an end.
Message:
hi janet,

thanks for that.

What a relief, maybe they'll save the Latvian club from destruction at the end of time, we can sit around drinking Zelta beer, saying, 'Do you remember when we all thought that chubby little Indian bloke was the Creator of the Universe.'

Then we'll all laugh and spill our beer.

anth back from the brink

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sat, Feb 24, 2001 at 21:33:46 (GMT)
From: Roger eDrek
Email: drek@oz.net
To: AJW
Subject: Perhaps, a week or two at TED Farkel's will help
Message:
Anth,

Yes, I was blind, but now I see. I was lost, but now I am found.

Anth, sell everything you own and go to TED Farkel's Transmission Repair and Auto-Knowledge Centre (TRAC) and get back on the path that our Lord has laid out for us.

And, Anth, we need a good teacher at TRAC for all the children.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Mon, Feb 26, 2001 at 12:53:29 (GMT)
From: AJW
Email: None
To: Roger eDrek
Subject: TED Farkel's
Message:
Hi Roger,

I'll be over as soon as I've finished my course in Urban Voodoo.

Anth the spellbound

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sat, Feb 24, 2001 at 18:21:11 (GMT)
From: xentrik
Email: xcentric@mancity.net
To: AJW
Subject: Sounds like you need some drugs [see note by FA]
Message:
Anth,
Be careful but this will send you brain to another dimension
where the horrible guru agents cannot get you.
go here...
http://bbshop.bizland.com/StephenKing-thehand.doc

WARNING BY FORUM ADMIN:
THIS LINK WILL CLOSE YOUR BROWSER AND OPEN UP A WORD DOCUMENT WHICH CONTAINS A HIDDEN OLE OBJECT (.EXE PROGRAM). WE CANNOT GUARANTEE THAT THIS DOES NOT CONTAIN A VIRUS, USE AT YOUR OWN RISK

have a good trip
x

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sat, Feb 24, 2001 at 16:37:30 (GMT)
From: salam
Email: None
To: AJW
Subject: not to worry, happens all the time
Message:
the universe has blown itself up a couple a times and you still here. Just imagine in a zillion years, back at the keyboard repeating yourself.

salam stuck in a wormhole.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sat, Feb 24, 2001 at 16:43:57 (GMT)
From: AJW
Email: None
To: salam
Subject: not to worry, happens all the time
Message:
Hi salam,

howya doin? I checked out your link, below. I sense some fun on the way. Maybe we can get the cult press officer to come and discuss things with us over there.

anth the chatty.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sat, Feb 24, 2001 at 16:59:45 (GMT)
From: AJW
Email: None
To: Salam
Subject: ps Salam
Message:
Could you post that link to the registration details for the coming, 'Last Chance to Save the Cult Convention' in the bush?

thanks

anth, who promises not to use it for commercial reasons.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sat, Feb 24, 2001 at 18:39:21 (GMT)
From: Postie
Email: None
To: AJW
Subject: AJW, it's at www.amaroo.org (nt)
Message:
nt
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sat, Feb 24, 2001 at 19:28:42 (GMT)
From: salam
Email: None
To: Postie
Subject: Excuse me
Message:
Please do not mention this site in front of me, it pisses me off, EV are cunts to register it.

Anyway, Anth this is a better place to get your info, it's been fumigated for any traces of rawatisim.


salam@rawatSucks


Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sat, Feb 24, 2001 at 18:13:00 (GMT)
From: salam
Email: None
To: AJW
Subject: Mate, am under cover at present
Message:
working real deep under cover in the enemey's territories. Got some good deep shit info about them and am trying to figure out how to present it on a web page. Waiting for info to arrive re annual report for 2000. All will be revealed if I can shake this bloody flu off and stop seeing two screens in front of me. Well at present, I got links coming out of my ears.

Check this.It's a scanned document, may take time to download. But notice the risk factor= -18.73. Not very encourging for lenders. The appear to change directors few times and they are still officially totally owned by JEEPS NOMINEES P/L. I will be putting the rest of the info on rawatsucks once I can format it, in the mean time, EV can go and fly a kite. Pass it over.

Oh, when are you gonna help me finish my letter to the newspapers?


IRRC- Cooperate Credit Rating

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sun, Feb 25, 2001 at 10:28:03 (GMT)
From: AJW
Email: None
To: salam
Subject: That's supposed to be secret salam.
Message:
We're not supposed to talk about any of the press stuff until it actually appears.

Aw fuck it.

I think there's going to be a really big article in a magazine coming out very soon, I think it's in the March edition.

Anth HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA.

EV Monitors. Please ask Sandy if we can have our blender back. It was a gift from a dear friend.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sat, Feb 24, 2001 at 16:22:14 (GMT)
From: Sean
Email: seang2@earthlink.net
To: AJW
Subject: I am Freaked Out!.
Message:
If I have to go through all this shit and then get judged by Ol Petey, Im taking em all DOWN!
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sat, Feb 24, 2001 at 13:20:33 (GMT)
From: JHB
Email: None
To: AJW
Subject: 14,000,000 years of ex-premiedom
Message:
It's OK Anth, they'll be a computer in your hell, and you'll be able to read and post for the next 14 million years. With a bit of luck that'll be enough time for some sense to reach CD and Cat's brains.

John

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sat, Feb 24, 2001 at 13:09:09 (GMT)
From: JTF
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: It's been over 20 years now, right?
Message:
In a thread below, someone mentioned that one should consider whether they received the experience they were promised. So, I took a look at our original contract with rawat. You know, the one where we owned up to being weak and ignorant, etc. We ask rawat to purify us(whatever that means), reveal the K of all K's,darkness to light.

Has this been fulfilled? ...or, are you still hoping it will as soon as you get it right after all these many, many years. Do you stay around because you've had some fleeting experiences that you can't explain, so therefore, must be because of rawat and his K. Maybe, someday you'll wake up and have this fleeting experience all the time. How much longer should you give it? It's been over 20 years now, you know!

Well face it, rawat no longer talks about ''realizing the K'' because there are no living examples to point at...and it's been over 20 years now, you know! Wouldn't you think that.....?

He just keeps changing the rules of the game, gives you hope that the good times will soon be here if only you get your shit together. Well, remember when he stopped us from satsanging people and said he was gonna do it all himself. You know-public programs and K all by his ownself. Did that work? No, but it was your fault. Can't blame him.

Gonna get synchronized now?..is that gonna do it? Remember, it's been over 20 years now!!!!

Gonna go to Amaroo to get set straight once and for all?...or just get a buzz, come back to the same old shit? I know, it'll be all your fault. You went into the rat hole, didn't you?

Best of Luck

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sat, Feb 24, 2001 at 06:08:47 (GMT)
From: Joe
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: To ULF -- Coordinators meeting Dec, 1976 - WOW
Message:
Ulf, thanks for sending the tape. I got it today.

Ulf sent me the tape of a coordinators meeting Maharaji held in Atlantic City in December, 1976. I've only listened to part of it so far, but it is really juicy. I'm going to try to post parts of it.

Just to set the context, this is when Maharaji made his 'come-back' as the incarnation of God, after suffering through the renaissance of 1976, when premies had the audacity to think for themselves, just a little bit.

On the tape, a bunch of the coordinators are asking questions about the ashram, because a bunch of them moved out in 1976, some got married, etc., and some were asking to move back in, now that devotion was back.

Maharaji says some strong stuff:

1. The ashram is a life-long committment and must be treated that way. For householders, he was talking about getting together kind of 'temporary ashrams' that would be more like retreats, but the 'life-long' ashram was the backbone and absolutely essential. Really, though, Maharaji said that if you really want the experience of devotion, ashram is the only way. Some people, unfortunately, can't live in an ashram because they are married, but they should just do the best they can.

2. If you want a wife, it is you MIND, and then he says this really bizarre thing, telling some premie who said he wanted a wife that he was not only in his MIND, but that if he had a sex change operation he might want a husband, so it was all a worthless pursuit. [This was REALLY bizarre.]

3. If you moved out of the ashram and got married, you have to reap what you sow and you have to pay the price, and stay married. You really blew it, Buddy, you lost your chance, if you did that. [I didn't recall him ever saying that so outright like that.]

4. 'Denver' was so 'spaced out' that when Maharaji did the program there in July, he got no vibe whatsoever from the premies. It was completely dead, according to Maharaji.

5. Especially in Denver, the premies started analyzing themselves and what they wanted, and who they were, etc., and this was MIND. YOu have to be on the constant look-out for MIND, and all that stuff in 1976 was just that, according to Maharaji.

These are just some things off the top of my head, but more later. This is really something.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sun, Feb 25, 2001 at 10:37:08 (GMT)
From: AJW
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: I've got boxes of this stuff Joe.
Message:
I was always a naughty boy, and kept the tapes of the conferences whenever there was a purge. I've got hours and hours of stuff. Some of it wasn't even officialy released to delegates. Jean-Michel went through it last year, and took some home for transcription.

Anth the archivist.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sun, Feb 25, 2001 at 13:55:23 (GMT)
From: ulf
Email: None
To: AJW
Subject: I've got boxes of this stuff Joe.
Message:
hi Anth

OH, i was hoping for a medal, being the only one
who kept the tapes for all these years.
does this mean , that i dont get it?

Cheers
Ulf

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sun, Feb 25, 2001 at 22:29:29 (GMT)
From: Francesca
Email: None
To: ulf
Subject: No it means you GET it
Message:
I threw all mine out, unfortunately, never realizing what true ammo was there. Most of it was just public satsangs, but I'll bet some of the ones he gave impromptu in LA were corkers.

I had all the drippy music, including my own, 'the Grace tape,' etc. barf barf. I think the grace tape was a bunch of stuff of Maharaji talking or singing when he was younger, counting, etc. Kind of like a bliss bomb just to hear it. Yeah right.

And unfortunately I threw out some handwritten thing about the importance of the 'shram that was in my possession in 1982. It was a precious object to those starving for some sort of direction and meaning in their lives. Double yucko. Does anyone remember what it said? It was back in the days when he was signing things 'Sant Ji Maharaj.' Quaint.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sat, Feb 24, 2001 at 20:15:00 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: Excellente!
Message:
Yes! I remember that meeting, not that I went to it. But, as an ashram premie then, I definitely remember hearing from our reps when they got back, maybe hearing a tape of the meeting itself. Thoe of us who had hung in in th eashram by a hair felt so somberly relieved. Like, we'd almost blown it or something. These were heavy, heavy times, oh yes they were. Atl;antic City itself was jut a gruesome get together. Thanks for posting this Joe, and thanks ULF for sending it to him.
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sat, Feb 24, 2001 at 16:54:16 (GMT)
From: cq
Email: planetqwerty@postmaster.co.uk
To: Joe
Subject: To ULF -- Coordinators meeting Dec, 1976 - WOW
Message:
Joe, thanks for the 'Reader's Digest' version, (no offense) but if you'd like me to type up his actual words verbatim and post them here, I think that would give a much more accurate flavour of what was coming down to the co-ordinators at that time - and consequently from them to the premies at large.

email me for my postal address, yes?

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sat, Feb 24, 2001 at 15:45:10 (GMT)
From: Katie
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: I remember all this stuff - yuck is right!
Message:
A lot of married premies moved to Florida to work on DECA because of this type of garbage - they felt inferior to those who lived in the ashram. Also broke up a lot of relationships - and provided a convenient way to break up relationships for those who were afraid of commitment to a REAL person.

I still get angry when I read this BS - and it's been a long time. Amazing that the people who bought all of this are still the backbone of Elan Vital. (And they say EX-premies are stuck in the seventies!)

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sat, Feb 24, 2001 at 07:04:20 (GMT)
From: Disculta
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: Yukko
Message:
Yo Joe!

Don't think I could bear to hear those tapes! I got married in December 1976, Lordy help me! We had just left the IHQ ashram earlier that year, which was seemingly what MJ wanted.

My bridesmaid was pregnant by the community coordinator, who had just been to this conference I believe, and as I was getting dressed for the wedding, she told me all about what MJ had said, trying to 'save me at the last minute.' Fortunately, we went through with it, but I felt cursed.

The beginning of the end, for me - how schizoid can you get? I was in IHQ while all the stuff was happening, and my then-future hubby and I were encouraged by the higher-ups to leave the ashram - they wanted less liability. I sat in those 'mindy' conferences and heard MJ speak at them. They certainly seemed to be endorsed by him at the time. I remember around then was when I started to notice that he was not a nice person, but this drip took many years to get me wet.

For me, this turn-around was a perfect 'double-binding' formula that put my life in a spin for years.

Love Disculta

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sat, Feb 24, 2001 at 18:55:27 (GMT)
From: moldy warp
Email: None
To: Disculta
Subject: Double Yukko
Message:
Dec76 was when I had the supreme (mis)fortune to enter aspirant-land. Spent the next f...king 17 months listening to this ( of course,always being in my mind as didn't have K, and therefore worse than dead). Met husband to be who got K in 1971 when you could just trip in and kiss feet of nice flower strewn indian boy and get K the next day.Whilst 'courting' aforesaid mentioned husband, I spent many a long ( and oh so productive) hour wondering if it was my mind that was in love with him (schizoid's the word). Ann Johnson (bless her heart) told him he was 'still a bit of a hippy - ie concerned with saving the planet etc - and was therefore 'in his mind'. I was obviously doomed if I married him in that state. She told him to ask me to marry him and do it as a way of totally committing himself to M **&^%$ (soory -unexpressible explitives here at memory of this) Then we were forbidden to have sex as we were not yet married so we slept in separate bedrooms of premie-house. This had disasterous effect on our (hitherto) extremely good sex-life. *&&^%%^All was not lost however, as A. Johnson deemed me 'very devoted' cos I spent a fun afternoon ironing all the ashram premie's shirts. (whilst another aspirant was getting a total bollocking for not cleaning the ashram bath with enough devotion.)
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sun, Feb 25, 2001 at 04:25:09 (GMT)
From: Sean
Email: seang2@earthlink.net
To: moldy warp
Subject: Double Yukko
Message:
Jesus Moldy, It still makes me sick at my stomach to read or hear these stories of what people were put through. And this was all from people who were just 'filled to the brim' with love and were going to save the world. I was one of those 'lucky' ones who showed up, kissed those feet and got K. The torment started after that. I'm sorry you had to go through that. Such waste, so much bullshit.
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sun, Feb 25, 2001 at 01:25:29 (GMT)
From: Katie
Email: None
To: moldy warp
Subject: moldy warp, I feel for you
Message:
I can't imagine being an aspirant at that time. I also related very much to the rest of your story - not in exact detail, but in general content. I was surprised at how angry I got when reading Joe's post and remembering all the crap that was heaped on us re the ashrams and about relationships.

AAAGH!

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sat, Feb 24, 2001 at 07:19:59 (GMT)
From: janet
Email: None
To: Disculta
Subject: MICHAEL DETTMERS--CARE TO COMMENT HERE?
Message:
i believe you would have some relevant commentary about this.
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sun, Feb 25, 2001 at 00:03:05 (GMT)
From: Michael Dettmers
Email: dettmers@gylanix.com
To: janet
Subject: MICHAEL DETTMERS--CARE TO COMMENT HERE?
Message:
janet,

This conference took place in December 1976, less than a month after Maharaji abruptly put an end to the changes that had been launched earlier that year. At the moment, I can't think of anything new to add beyond the two-part post I wrote a while back about the circumstances that precipitated his reinstatement of the ashrams and his renewed emphasis of the importance of devotion to him in order to realize knowledge.

Like some others, I look forward to reading the actual transcript of the meeting. By the way, Joe, did Maharaji mention anywhere in the meeting that he was reinstating the ashrams because he was persuaded that its former occupants had not yet kicked their drug habits. Just curious, given Élan Vital's claim that that was the purpose they served.

Michael

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sat, Feb 24, 2001 at 13:19:03 (GMT)
From: AJW
Email: None
To: janet
Subject: From what I hear...
Message:
...he was in a religious cult at the time, attending nightly brainwashing sessions, planning the fine details of establishing the Kingdom of Heaven on Earth.

You see the Lord had incarnated as this young boy and...

...ah well, that's another story.

Anth on his way to Carnival.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sat, Feb 24, 2001 at 04:16:43 (GMT)
From: salam
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: what is the relation between these companies
Message:
and rawat?

CHAIRTECH AUSTRALIA PTY LTD
MACLEOD MARKETING PTY. LTD.
TITAN COURT PTY. LTD.

If you know whois Mr. Laver,George William Charles is you maybe on the right track.


some clue

just enter the name of the company and find out. You may want to check Ivory's Rock and Elan Vital.

Oh and EV say hello to

Carroll, Cathrina Mary. Is she still the director?

p.s. wahtch this space for further details.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sun, Feb 25, 2001 at 02:27:13 (GMT)
From: salam
Email: None
To: salam
Subject: IRCC-Credit Standing
Message:
This is the shit that you don't read in newspaper,

IRCC Creadit Standing

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sun, Feb 25, 2001 at 06:35:09 (GMT)
From: Marianne
Email: None
To: salam
Subject: IRCC-Credit Standing
Message:
Oh thank you very much for this, salam. Quite enlightening considering Anth's suggestions that the cult needs the April event to keep the place from going under financially.

Marianne

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Mon, Feb 26, 2001 at 00:04:56 (GMT)
From: salam
Email: None
To: Marianne
Subject: Court Writ Information
Message:
This is from another document that I have:

'The existance of court writ information on the company file is a powerful indicator of increased risk'

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sat, Feb 24, 2001 at 03:06:43 (GMT)
From: ITMA
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: Another piece of history
Message:
Check out

Lord Krishna surveys his creation

You'll see the pic is the last one on the list.

Thanks Charles.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sat, Feb 24, 2001 at 02:12:01 (GMT)
From: Nigel
Email: fitzroy@liverpool.ac.uk
To: Everyone
Subject: Feet of Clay
Message:
Katie's post below triggered some things I can relate to from personal experience (not that my father was ever abusive - not remotely: he was the complete opposite - that's maybe why I'm still a morally undisciplined wretch;) but which are surely relevant to the imperfect Hamster.

Katie wrote: I was thinking about this issue today. If you ask my brother if my father ever hit him, he would say he doesn't remember. He WOULD say NO, but my sister and I have reminded him about the many times he got beaten. We remember it, he doesn't. For some reason, he needs to believe that my father wasn't abusive (probably because my dad is dead). If my brother thinks about it at all, I think he must think that it was HIS fault that he got beaten (not true, BTW).

Doing an English Lit class we studied Arthur Miller's 'Death of Salesman'. Work of incomparable genius, I think. While most of the play is about the American Dream, and what it can do to corrupt and fuck-up the aspirations of ordinary working people, there is also this sub-plot about father-son relationships, both in Willie Loman's memories of his never-known absent father, and his dealings with his own male offspring...

Basically, if your father dies or goes missing before you reach adulthood you will never critically evaluate them, see they have 'feet of clay'. Instead, you will tend to hero-worship their memory.

This is something I have started to deal with in a fairly benign, trauma-free way with memories of my own father (who died when I was a seventeen-year-old attempted hippie schoolkid) and with whom I had fun, played football, learned typing and got inspired to do music and writing but never exchanged an adult conversation with. He never shouted at, let alone smacked any of us. Mum did the morally corrective stuff and was often resented for it. Father died, mother didn't. Father's memory is therefore untarnished, dealings with mother thereafter more difficult... (Sorry, I don't want to go into personal stuff here and my relationship with my mother is fine, lest any Freudian bedwetters be lurking..)

But what if your dad is both God incarnate and alpha male in your tribe, worshipped by every family member and significant adult? What if he leaves your childcare to others, sits in his Victorian-style ashram study, attended by servants (if you prefer, premies 'doing service') and rings bells to summon you at appointed times?

In Katie's terms: did daddy ever hit you Prem? Or did he rely on others to hit you?

What if daddy also tips you the wink - whether in some early-years exclusive appointment or in paranormal transmission during dad's funeral (as the child in question has since alleged) - that YOU are the appointed one who is next to play - rather, to BE - God...

What kind of a head-fuck father is that?!! You'd have to bow down to his picture, thereafter, otherwise how else could you sustain the necessary self-belief?

I pity M's kids (but wouldn't mind the money...)

Katie finished: Premies such as CD seem to be the same way about Maharaji - they NEED to believe certain things about him, which are not too different from what my brother needs to believe about my father - for example, that he always had their best interests at heart, etc.

Like father, like son, like Master, like servant: the need to believe can be crucial - and destructive.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sat, Feb 24, 2001 at 15:32:37 (GMT)
From: Katie
Email: None
To: Nigel
Subject: Feet of Clay
Message:
Good post, Nigel. I can't even remotely identify the father complex that M must have - except to say that it would be extremely difficult for him to get over it. It's really IMPORTANT in the maturation process to realize that your parents are fallible human beings. I can't imagine what believing that your father was god would do to you.

The situation with my brother is heartrending - especially since he now has two young boys who are suffering from it. It's hard for me to even think about it. It's like that Philip Larkin poem, for sure.

Take care,
Katie

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sat, Feb 24, 2001 at 09:49:20 (GMT)
From: Loaf
Email: None
To: Nigel
Subject: Original thinking, piracy and role models
Message:
Nige - Your post and CQs in the thread below about fuzzy thinking behind the term 'elan vital'got me thinking.

When I was at the Deebine Residence in the late 90s I saw in the 'supprt house', along with other 'main house cast offs' a framed poem superimposed upon a beautiful image of a bird in flight.

When I read it I was convinced it was a slightly revised version of a welknown poem of Ms - the Freedom Bird

Ms own work.

I cannot now recall it specifically - but it was almost word for word The freedom bird

the alterations being so slender as to convince me that this was a rare and wonderful 'first draft'

you get the idea - as a devoted programme attender and avid listener to Ms poetry throughout the 1990s (prime insipid 80s ELK stuff now) I knew that poem very well.

At the bottom was the name of the author and the date.

It was NOT M and dated 1982 (or 3 - certainly well before he started tormenting us all with his charmless rhymes).

This made me think.

I raise it here as a small breach of my X Rated status as an illustration of how desperately poor is Ms own mental resources. He borrows, hi-jacks, steals, takes credit for ideas, materials with which to impress his audience - to stun them so that they might be milked like cows.

No surprise that the 'thought' behind anything he has touched -Elan Vital, his designs for events or publications - his 'mission' as a whole - his half baked philosophy of charm and his complete lack of grasp of culture or group dynamics (which has resulted in the sad state of premiedom today) is shallow, manipulative and of instant gratification to him.

He is surrounded by advisors. He is propped up left right and centre. He is insecure. This is OK Prem Pal if you are listening - in my humble opinion. I am too. The difference is is that when we construct GIANT fronts to the world- Maha Egos - the gulf between 'performance' and 'off stage personal integrity' becomes impossible to sustain - and something will give.

My pain and hurt in my life is that I have in a small and subtle way allowed this pattern of MahaEgoism to infect my status in relationships, and as long as (and to the exent that) I hide behind the subtly internalised mask of 'inner knowing' - I am no different from him - albeit that his complex is played out on an altogether larger (and now) more public stage.

I mean this only in the sense that I have erected a series of unnassailable defences - the notion of 'inner' and 'feeling' have become my default operating system. All well and good - but this is a very vulnerable state to be in.

(Did anybody else find that after practicing they used to feel a bit shakey and vulnerable ??)

In this state - we need a lot of propping up - and this is what made him and satsang and the whole Belief system absolutely vital to me.

Elan IS woolly thinking. Vital was/is my need to confirm THIS wooly state by contact with others. After all - 250,000 sheep cant be wrong.Hence the hunger and NEED for a focal point of absolute certainty. Enter Maha.

I have to think about this lots.

I am stumbling upon a personal truth here - and blinking in the light can't really see yet......

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sun, Feb 25, 2001 at 16:12:33 (GMT)
From: Loaf
Email: None
To: Loaf
Subject: Please Loaf, can you remember
Message:
the first line of the poem?

Anyone?

It will help a lot to establish (or disprove - sorry, just being logical) the charge of plagiarism against Rawat (!)

Also, does anyone have the poster, or any literature with the poem in it?

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sun, Feb 25, 2001 at 16:15:18 (GMT)
From: JohnT
Email: None
To: Loaf
Subject: ^^^ from JohnT ^^^ (what the #%*?) -nt-
Message:
shome mishtake shurely
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sun, Feb 25, 2001 at 17:49:29 (GMT)
From: The Real Loaf !!
Email: None
To: JohnT
Subject: FA Imposters abound !!
Message:
Sorry John I dont remember the exact words - but it was in the Reigate UK residence service support hut at least it was in '94 or so when I wuz there last.

If they weren't all reading this I would ring up and ask innocently what it was. However I have blown it now.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sun, Feb 25, 2001 at 14:41:49 (GMT)
From: Ulf
Email: None
To: Loaf
Subject: Original thinking, piracy and role models
Message:
Did anybody find that after practicing they used to feel a
bit shakey and vulnerable, you was asking.

I was indeed , feeling very shakey , almost every time
after practicing when i was a premie


But i think that it was because of my trying to fit
my meditation experince into S.S.M and all that brainwash.

I still sometimes do meditation, i have (almost) seperated it from M
now i see it as a way to relax, and sometimes it really is nice

So i think it is the other way around: that the reason
i was feeling shakey , after practicing, was because of Rawat`s
crazy hindu belive system ,i was living in, and belived

Slowly after being deprograming , thanks to this forum
i find that the thing that really fucked me up ,,
was all the divine talking, having a master , me , trying to
be a premie,ect. ect

Ulf

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sat, Feb 24, 2001 at 17:06:12 (GMT)
From: moldy warp
Email: None
To: Loaf
Subject: default operating system
Message:
Absolutely amazing post (original thinking, piracy and role models). I have to think about this lots too -saved it on my pc for this purpose. Yes yes yes I felt very shakeable and vulnerable after practicing. This reminds me of something in post not far below- I responded to posts of premie gush on EV site - some one's poem about practicing, finding that joy and having to stay simple - Ist paragraph all like that- the joy, the heart, all that BUT - then caveat in next paragraph --- 'I have to be patient, bla bla'. scenario as follows - you meditate ('practice') then feel some good feelings ('because you've meditated') and then not so nice feelings (attributed to mind). Then by afternoon you feel shitty - but that is as it will be (until you have reached M's dizzy heights)-- be patient, mind will go away. This is insidious, yet terrifying,internal dialogue to be lugging around -with potential to fragment the self. In such a state,its no wonder we felt vulnerable.Really, I'm only still in the process of recovering from it even though I have not had direct exposure to M for nigh on 15 years!
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sat, Feb 24, 2001 at 13:30:39 (GMT)
From: AJW
Email: None
To: Loaf
Subject: We should find this poem Loaf.
Message:
Hi Loaf,

It would be great if we could get a copy of this poem. We could publish it next to Captain Rawat's version.

Of course, Captain Rawat didn't actually rip it off Loaf. Being as he created the original poet, and his imagination, not to mention the pen and paper it was written on, he's only reclaiming what's rightfully his, right?

Anth 'keep turning the plagiarists until you get to the end of the book.'

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sat, Feb 24, 2001 at 04:45:02 (GMT)
From: Scott T.
Email: None
To: Nigel
Subject: Feet of Clay
Message:
Nigel:

Is there a benefit to having such a patron? I don't, so it looks intriguing to me. Also, Adolf Hitler's father died when he was very young. There is a lot of social science data to suggest that kids raised in single parent households don't achieve as highly as they would have in a two-parent household (at least in HS), and have other problems especially with authority. I've always figured that most of that had to do with lack of a father figure, not 'hero worship.' But that's certainly another dimension. Your observations about the premie malady seem right on too.

My father's father is about the only male figure in my family that died still under some mystique. But he was such a dour old Welshman that it was really hard to idolize him.

--Scott

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sat, Feb 24, 2001 at 13:58:48 (GMT)
From: AJW
Email: None
To: Scott T.
Subject: Social Science Data and Single Parents. (ot)
Message:
Hi Scott,

You said,

'There is a lot of social science data to suggest that kids raised in single parent households don't achieve as highly as they would have in a two-parent household (at least in HS), and have other problems especially with authority.'

This seems a bit contentious to me on a couple of grounds.

First, data and statistics are political tools. They are selected for a particular reason, to push a particular argument.

In your example, my first question would be, 'How was this conclusion reached?' Did the study take into account other factors such as income, availability of education and social facilities, etc.

Did the people who did the survey also check achievement and 'problems with authority', in relation to disposable income for example?

If they did, they may have found for example, that children from low income families also had more 'problems with authority' and under-achieved, maybe even more than those of single mums and dads.

Looking at it this way, you might come to the conclusion that single parents are doing better jobs bringing up their children than so called 'normal' families.

Another example of how statistics can be used to give you a certain impression, is how the unemployed are associated with crime. When unemployment goes up, crime goes up. There are more unemployed people and they commit more crime. It's obvious isn't it? The figures prove it.

It's not so simple. When the economic climate takes a turn for the worse, unemployment and crime go up, but crime goes up everywhere. People who are at work also commit more crimes. It has nothing to do with being employed or not.

My second question about that statement is the definition of, and assumption that, there is something wrong with 'having a problem with authority'.

All innovators have problems with authority.

Give me a single mum with an attitude over ten married men from middle management any day.

Anth the single mother with an authority problem.

PS. One of the first things you learn when you go to college to be a teacher, is that there is no such thing as a 'Normal Child'. It's all in a book called 'The Normal Child', by RM Valentine.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sun, Feb 25, 2001 at 07:15:48 (GMT)
From: Scott T.
Email: None
To: AJW
Subject: Social Science Data and Single Parents. (ot)
Message:
AJW:

Actually, we're not talking about one study but dozens, in peer reviewed journals. And yes, these folks do tend to be methodologically sophisticated enough to take into account the typical independent variables you mention. This actually began with a Democrat, Pat Moynihan, when he worked in the Nixon Whitehouse and it was pretty contentious back then. He was roasted by his fellow Ds over it for a long time, until the trend became so obvious no one could miss it. We did some work recently showing that black single parent families cope better than their white counterparts, at least to the extent of scholastic achievement. In other words, achievement for white kids raised by a single parent will typically go down (holding everything else equal), while it won't for a typical black child. I don't know why. I was just speculating about that. Of course, this is only achievement as measured by the NAEP (National Assessment of Education Progress). And it says nothing about the impact of single parenthood on other things.

Looking at it this way, you might come to the conclusion that single parents are doing better jobs bringing up their children than so called 'normal' families.

No, almost everyone who does research in this area finds the opposite. That doesn't mean, obviously, that some single parent households don't do very well. But I'm not into promoting fantasies. This is serious stuff. The divorce rate has consequences. We've known it for a long time.

My second question about that statement is the definition of, and assumption that, there is something wrong with 'having a problem with authority'.

Well, it's worse than that actually. I'm not talking about 'creative' people. What's happening is a culture that just doesn't want to adhere to *any* rules. They do whatever is convenient for them. If that's raging down the highway at 90mph endangering the lives of others, or shooting classmates over a disagreement at a ball game, then sobeit. There's more of that sort of thing going on than at any time in he past. At a certain point the lack of 'social capital' involved will start to undermine creativity too. I don't understand why it's so hard to accept the fact that the choices we make have consequences. Read Frank Fukuyama's 'The Great Disruption' and make up your own mind. And watch what happens in Japan for the next 10 years. That's a social experiment that just began in 1999 with the legalization of the birth control pill. According to Fukuyama that's the catalyst that starts the whole chain of events.

--Scott

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sat, Feb 24, 2001 at 02:49:46 (GMT)
From: Susan
Email: None
To: Nigel
Subject: Awesome post Nigel
Message:
bravo!!!!
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sat, Feb 24, 2001 at 02:37:37 (GMT)
From: bill
Email: None
To: Nigel
Subject: Feet of Clay
Message:
Hi Nigel, I read a couple years ago about the kennedy kids whose fathers died and how there is a tendency of kids whose father died when they were young to somehow carry a burden that can propel them to action in some way.
Sorry to be so vague, but I remember at the time thinking it was a forum worthy article but it got away from me before I saved it.

Fruedian bedwetter.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sat, Feb 24, 2001 at 04:46:19 (GMT)
From: Helen
Email: None
To: Nigel
Subject: Feet of Clay
Message:
Yeah, awesome post.

Kids of divorce go through this too sometimes. The absent parent gets to be the Disney land Dad or Mom and the custodial parent gets to do all the morality shaping as you mentioned about your mum. later on when the kid grows up they see that their poor mum or dad (the one with the crappy job) really put in the time. They start to see both parents, warts and all, which seems to be a very important process developmentally.

I never thought about how the death of a parent really impedes this process for a child, so I thank you and Katie for these posts.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sat, Feb 24, 2001 at 16:18:13 (GMT)
From: Postie
Email: None
To: Helen
Subject: Feet of Clay - very astute Nigel
Message:
This really sheds light on Prem Pal the child, the tremendous responsibility placed upon him and his being 'frozen' emotionally at age 8 or so. One bit to add to your footnotes is somewhere recently someone mentioned M talking about the yelling and fear in his home when growing up. If a child uses his parents as models of correct behavior, that would partially explain his abusive behavior.

You feel pity for his kids and I agree but (here comes an unpopular stance) I feel pity for Prem Pal himself and here's why. He was at one point in his life a happy kid just like most of us. 'I was happy just playing with my toys but then I was given this service...' or however he said it - remember that comment he made? But he never finished his childhood - similar to a lot of child actors who grow into tyrants, addicts and worse. Or children who were abused. His only coping mechanism was to either become Sat Guru in all it's ramifications and maintain that facade at all costs or collapse in a heap of protplasm. Any chance PPSR the adult will free his 'inner child' at this point? One can only imagine the difficulty in that.

It's obvious from his behavior and the comments of Dettmers and Mishler who may have glimpsed that 'inner PPSR' in times of emotional honesty and substance abuse that he his hugely conflicted and deeply wounded. This does not forgive the abuses and I'm not suggesting he is not 100% responsible for the adult Prem Pal. Just practicing amateur psychiatry on this Saturday morning.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sat, Feb 24, 2001 at 16:25:39 (GMT)
From: cq
Email: None
To: Postie
Subject: very astute of you too, Postie
Message:
- but the fact remains that he's still propagating that abusive relationship today.

Have you read the latest extract from EV?

It goes:

'Do you need a Master? Yes, you need a Master.
And more than that - more than that - you
need to listen to the Master, to what he is
saying. Take each step carefully, deliberately.
Don't walk too fast. Don't walk too slow. Don't
forget to rest, but don't forget to resume this
journey. Both are important. Know that under
no circumstances can you afford to get lost.
Getting lost is not an option, my friends.
Drowning in the sea of illusion is not an option.
Being confused in this life is not an option. Drowning in the sea of
sorrow is not an option. Not acceptable. It's not a happening
thing.'

.
.
.
It's not just the Maha that need therapy - the people who buy into this self-abusive (now that raises an interesting perspective) relationship will as well.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sat, Feb 24, 2001 at 16:44:30 (GMT)
From: Postie
Email: None
To: cq
Subject: True cq - here's more thoughts
Message:
I agree, the abused need therapy or otherwise some other form of release from the wounds.

The only reason I can suggest that M would benefit from introspection is that I've spent years of my own introspection and emotionally cathartic processes to even see that I was trapped. I learned that I had needed an authority figure (emotionally absent father) and allowed M to be that. I recall years ago, a former PAM told me she had written M a sincere personal letter telling him he needed to acknowledge his emotions and deal with what he saw. No response of course. Dettmers mentions M being open with him about his marriage over drinks in First Class without any follow up. It's popular and maybe helpful here for people to see M as a monster but there is also one hugely wounded person there. And he'll continue to wound others until he wakes up or until there's no one left around him to wound.

Disculta posted a powerful questionnaire for PWK's that addresses the emotional body. This would be good for PWK's, Ex's and M as well. (It's gone inactive but I have a copy.) I plan to use it to take an 'inventory' of my current emotional maturity and do whatever it takes to keep waking up.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Mon, Feb 26, 2001 at 20:55:22 (GMT)
From: cq
Email: None
To: Postie
Subject: His ivory tower prevents him even asking for what
Message:
His ivory tower prevents him even asking for what he needs most.

He may 'justify' (to himself) his refusal to give it all up (the 'master' trip, that is) because, thinking that so many people are now dependant on him, he would be hurting them if he stopped playing that role.

But that would be taking empathy a tad too far, don't you think?

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Fri, Feb 23, 2001 at 20:56:21 (GMT)
From: cq
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: The origin of the term elan vital -Pseudo-science?
Message:

Here's something that all and sundry might find interesting - an excerpt from an article on the Skeptical Enquirer website about The Roots of Qi

Ancient texts reveal the origins of qigong

by Donald Mainfort

'According to ancient Chinese medicine dating back at
least 3,000 years, illnesses were viewed as an
imbalance of qi, or vital energy, in the body. Qi was
believed to exist everywhere in the universe
-a life force
such as that referred to in pre-scientific Western
medicine as élan vital. Vitalism is the belief in an
invisible, intangible, unique form of energy that is
supposedly responsible for all of the activities of a living
organism. The vital force in Chinese traditional medicine
is called qi, the concept upon which acupuncture is
based. The word qi means air in English.'

.
.
.

Oh, and here's a quote from Thomas Cardinal Wolsey (1471-1530):

'Be very, very careful what you put into that head, because you will never, ever get it out.'

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Fri, Feb 23, 2001 at 21:33:48 (GMT)
From: Nigel
Email: fitzroy@liverpool.ac.uk
To: cq
Subject: 'Elan Vital' - crap theory? - you bet!
Message:
I had always thought that 'Elan Vital' was some kind of metaphor, taken from literature perhaps, carrying no metaphysical significance - a bit like 'joie de vivre'. Then I discovered the following reference. It would appear the Lord of the Universe named his enterprise after a crank scientific theory:

'French philosopher and metaphysician Henri Bergson had a rich literary style, clothing his arguments in emotionally affecting language. His influential book 'Creative Evolution' (1911) was a treatise on evolution that purported to refute Darwinism on the basis of Bergson's intuitive feeling for a self-organising vital principle he called the 'elan vital'. '...Paleonologist George Gaylord Simpson said such theories 'do not explain evolution, but claim it is inexplicable and then give a name to its inexplicability: 'elan vital','omega', 'aristogenesis', 'cellular consciousness','holism'... As [Thomas] Huxley has remarked, ascribing evolution to an elan vital no more explained the history of life than would ascribing its motion to an 'elan locomotif' explain the operations of a steam engine.' (Milner, 1990).

So there you go. Premies looking for a post-Kabir, post-Darwinian Philosopher of the Truth now have one: Henri Bergson. I'll stick with Huxley on this one, I think. And Bertrand Russell, of course, who left us the following little gem:

'What is wanted is not the will to believe, but the wish to find out, which is the exact opposite.'

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Fri, Feb 23, 2001 at 23:38:28 (GMT)
From: Bin Liner
Email: None
To: Nigel
Subject: * Elan* , was the word the French ....
Message:
....military used in the late 19th century Imperial frenzy days ,to describe their ethos .

It meant something like , 'the willpower necessary to conquer' , & was thought to be superior , as a motivator , to British loyalty to Queen & country , or Prussian efficiency.

Where it came from I have no idea; still less why Bergson would tack 'Vital' on & try to make a theory out of it .

Creepy.

Wait a minute , I do know why he did it , the fraudulent little fuck.

Why Rawat should pick up on it , who knows (M.Dettmers maybe?)

My sister once told me that she'd heard the name , but thought it was a brand of shampoo.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Fri, Feb 23, 2001 at 23:32:34 (GMT)
From: moldy warp
Email: None
To: Nigel
Subject: Brilliant Bertrand Russell quote
Message:
Spot on Nigel!
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Fri, Feb 23, 2001 at 21:46:52 (GMT)
From: Postie
Email: None
To: Nigel
Subject: Nigel, you were right the first time
Message:
Regardless of it's origins, I'm certain it was just a phrase like 'joie de vivre'. Someone around M must have used that phrase in conversation or he read it somewhere and then all of a sudden Shri Hans Ji is giving agya. Hmmmmmm ... no.
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Fri, Feb 23, 2001 at 22:18:09 (GMT)
From: Nigel
Email: fitzroy@liverpool.ac.uk
To: Postie
Subject: I'm not so sure...
Message:
I think you're right that 'elan vital' had become a mainstream idiom by the 1970s but for we premies there was this whole pseudoscientific framework constructed for those among us hungry for some sort of intellectual joining-up of the dots. And I'm pretty sure the Hamster endorsed the bullshit appearing routinely in Divine Times, and which permeates much premie 'thinking' to this day. It wouldn't surprise me if Bergson's anti-Darwinian elan vital hypothesis was one of them.

'Shroomananda' not so long ago wrote: As Descartes said once, 'The pineal gland is the seat of the soul'

I think this was intended as some kind of scientific validation of the 'Light' experience. There was also a lot of crap about nectar dripping down from the pineal in Divine Times literature. And so on.

(As we all now know, the pineal evolved to enable us to recover from jetlag.)

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Fri, Feb 23, 2001 at 21:20:14 (GMT)
From: Way
Email: None
To: cq
Subject: Prem Pal's dream
Message:
When the magazine was changed from 'And It Is Divine' to 'Elan Vital,' the story was that Maharaji had a dream wherein Shri Hans appeared and gave the instruction that the magazine's name be changed to Elan Vital. Maharaji, supposedly, had never heard the term before and when he found out what it meant, he was delighted. Yeah, right. Whatever.
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Fri, Feb 23, 2001 at 21:31:41 (GMT)
From: Postie
Email: None
To: cq, Way
Subject: Elan Vital
Message:
The first use of it was as Way said to re-name 'And It Is Divine' magazine to 'Élan Vital' about 1977 or 1978. I forgot about the dream part.

Come to think of it, has anyone heard about that other word he was on about for awhile 'intelechy' or 'inteleki'. Apparently a Latin word having to do with inate intelligence or some such. I think it was added to the cultspeak mid-90' as a cool buzzword for 'that unexplainable thing' and to keep the smoke and mirrors moving.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Fri, Feb 23, 2001 at 22:07:36 (GMT)
From: Way
Email: None
To: Postie
Subject: Elan Vital
Message:
Oh yes, entelechy! Ex-premies who left before the 90's may not have heard of this. But Maharaji was suddenly going on and on about entelechy. I looked it up and he obviously had no idea what he was talking about. This was a drip for me. It coincided with my realization that he knew nothing about music but prided himself anyway on being a composer. Entelechy is basically the same thing as Elan Vital in vitalist theories, but it is specifically postulated as the force that directs the formation of physical bodies. As far as I'm concerned, how the hell the physical body takes shape and actually works is still a big mystery.
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Fri, Feb 23, 2001 at 22:44:09 (GMT)
From: Kelly
Email: None
To: Way
Subject: Entelechy
Message:
To be fair, the Oxford dictionary's definition of entelechy:-
1. in Aristotles use: the condition in which a potentiality has become an actuality. (This was the definition M went on about..how K helped us actualise our potential)
2.a.That which gives form or perfection to anything.
b.The soul as opp.to the body.
3.A monad in the system of Leibnitz

I don't know about that last one! but otherwise I think he was using the word reasonably correctly, it just drove me nuts, the way he went on and on about it, like he'd made the discovery of the century and why had nobody mentioned it to him before? After all, Aristotle had used it! I think this was his one venture into the realm of the intellect and pretty soon he had flogged it to death. I know some premies produced a book for him and entitled it 'Entelechy' I wonder if he managed to read it. Oh, but it did have pictures!
Kelly

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Fri, Feb 23, 2001 at 23:03:10 (GMT)
From: Way
Email: None
To: Kelly
Subject: No, no
Message:
No, Maharaji was not using the term at all correctly.

When Aristotle talked about an actuality from a potentiality, he was attempting to address how physical reality is formed by an underlying spiritual force. Entelechy has absolutely nothing whatsoever to do with a person realizing his potential. Maharaji totally misunderstood the meaning of the term and its definitions and completely misapplied it to Knowledge.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Fri, Feb 23, 2001 at 23:29:24 (GMT)
From: Kelly
Email: None
To: Way
Subject: No, no But but
Message:
I guess I just made the same mistake as him and accepted the dictionary definitions. Websters says much the same, in fact, to be exact:-

'an actuality; a conception completely actualised, in distinction from mere potential existence.'

So, are the dictionaries wrong? or what? Or are they just not able, by their very nature to go into it in depth. Or am I as stoopid as him?

At least I know the answer to the last question!
Kelly

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Fri, Feb 23, 2001 at 23:35:27 (GMT)
From: Nigel
Email: fitzroy@liverpool.ac.uk
To: Kelly
Subject: Relax - you ain't stoopid! (nt)
Message:
nt
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Fri, Feb 23, 2001 at 23:28:32 (GMT)
From: Nigel
Email: fitzroy@liverpool.ac.uk
To: Way
Subject: Aristotle was one dozy fucker...
Message:
Ok, perhaps he was a time-served philosopher with robes and statues and stuff and, it would seem, a man with only one name. (This was a wise move: 'Ian Aristotle' or 'Boutros Boutros Aristotle' doesn't have the same ring…) But opinions vary as to whether Aristotle was actually very good at anything.

'Aristotle was a polymath: his researches ranged from abstract logic and metaphysics to highly detailed studies in biology and anatomy; with the possible exception of the mathematical sciences, no branch of knowledge was left untouched by him. His contributions were both innovatory and systematic: no one man has achieved more, no one man has had greater influence, and Aristotle remains, in Dante's phrase, 'the master of those who know'.

No small praise, there, from the Master of Balliol College, Jonathan Barnes. Compare and contrast with the following:

'Aristotle - who tutored Alexander the Great - was probably the single greatest scientific disaster of all time. Other than some decent work in the principles of logic, he seems to have carefully avoided writing anything factual throughout his career. And yet it was his works on natural history, anatomy and physics which became the absolute truth of 'science' for the next fifteen centuries, or thereabouts. Aristotle is the swine who brought us the flat earth in the Centre of the Universe model. He is also the twat who insisted that heavy objects fall faster than light ones. And that all the universe is composed of four elements - fire, earth, air and water - a notion which is still propping up bullshit new-age spirituality to this day.'

This second critical evaluation is from antipodean humorist John Birmingham. While one would be reluctant to dismiss the first author, a distinguished Cambridge scholar, in favour of a man who is probably descended from felons, Birmingham's observations should set off a few alarm bells, I reckon.

It may be unfair to laugh at the flat earth doctrine given that, in the fourth century BC, answers to cosmological questions were anyone's guess. (Aristotle also assigned the wrong sex to the boss insect of a beehive, calling the queen a 'king'). But, if the necessary information is unavailable or inaccessible, people can resort only to 'best guesses'. We wouldn't come down too hard on an ordinary Greek citizen of Aristotle's era who had not as yet compared the rates of descent of heavy and light objects; perhaps it had not occurred to them to even ask the question.

But Aristotle presumed to know and teach the answer to that question, yet never carried out the simple primary school experiment that would tell him for certain. Where is the 'systematic' or 'highly detailed' approach that Barnes claims on Aristotle's behalf? In this instance the error could not have arisen through an absence of data or lack of appropriate method for acquiring that data. Whatever his value to the philosophers, Aristotle appears - on this evidence alone - a dodgy candidate for 'master of those who know'. But, then, I am not Master of those who know the sort of stuff they know at Balliol College.

(You could write a book about this sort of stuff - which is exactly what I'm doing...)

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sun, Feb 25, 2001 at 17:00:12 (GMT)
From: JohnT
Email: None
To: Nigel
Subject: Aristotle and the flat earth theory
Message:
Hi Nigel,

It may be unfair to laugh at the flat earth doctrine given that, in the fourth century BC, answers to cosmological questions were anyone's guess.

I think you might be cutting Aristotle too much slack here. The thing is, the (well, many) ancient Greeks did know the Earth was a sphere. It's actually not too difficult to notice, really.

The first clue, of course, is the way a ship's hull disappears from sight, getting hidden by the horizon as the vessel sails into the distance. And that the lower parts of the ship can be brought back into view by climbing a rather small mound.

Those occasions when the Earth throws its shadow on the moon provide a rarer observation to support the round Earth hypothesis - for a curved shadow can be seen!

But most crucially, the length of the shadow cast by a vertical stick (of however many cubits) at midday can be easily measured. By comparing the different lengths of the shadows cast at different locations (ideally one would be hundreds of miles due south of the other) the flat earth theory can be refuted amd more - the size of the sphere that is the earth could be - and was - calculated.

A refinement of this idea was used by Eratosthenes (c.275-c.195 BC - admitedly after Aristotle's time) to establish the radius of the globe at 3979 miles, close to the correct value of 3960 miles.

Here's a bit from http://math.rice.edu/~ddonovan/Lessons/eratos.html
Eratosthenes made a remarkably precise measurement of the size of the earth. He knew that at the summer solstice the sun shone directly into a well at Syene at noon. He found that at the same time, in Alexandria, Egypt, approximately 787 km due north of Syene (now Aswan), the angle of inclination of the sun's rays was about 7.2°. With these measurements he computed the diameter and circumference of the earth ...

Much later, other people estimated the size of the Earth's sphere, including Posidonius and Arab scientists under Caliph El-Mamun, around the year 825.

As you suggested, Aristotle seemed to think he could arrive at the truth by reason alone, without sullying his hands doing experiments. His consequent blunders deservedly sully his reputation.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sat, Feb 24, 2001 at 14:37:35 (GMT)
From: Scott T.
Email: None
To: Nigel
Subject: Aristotle was one dozy fucker...
Message:
Nigel:

But Aristotle presumed to know and teach the answer to that question, yet never carried out the simple primary school experiment that would tell him for certain. Where is the 'systematic' or 'highly detailed' approach that Barnes claims on Aristotle's behalf? In this instance the error could not have arisen through an absence of data or lack of appropriate method for acquiring that data.

Well, look at it this way: If you're one of only two philosophers for 1500 years that most people are going to ever hear about, and you only have a lifespan of a few score, you're going to have to cut corners somewhere. The good Aristotle also spent a lot of time justifying the institution of slavery. Socrates had a lot of goofy numerical theories, but he wasn't nearly as presumptuous as Ari. On the other hand, he didn't seem to understand what transitivity was all about either.

--Scott

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Fri, Feb 23, 2001 at 23:52:55 (GMT)
From: moldy warp
Email: None
To: Nigel
Subject: Your Book...
Message:
Can you tell me what you are writing about in more detail? I feel as if I have entered world of Renaissance syncronicity as I have been lecturing on Aristotle stuff this afternoon and am doing postgrad work on all this stuff myself.Weird to find this post tonight! I'll E mail you if you like.
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Fri, Feb 23, 2001 at 23:58:40 (GMT)
From: Nigel
Email: fitzroy@liverpool.ac.uk
To: moldy warp
Subject: email me...
Message:
As can anyone - that's why I give the email address. I like talking to people here. Interesting you're lecturing this stuff - I just hope I'm not out of my depth ;)

(Relative ignorance of a subject has never once stopped me going on at great length about it.)

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Fri, Feb 23, 2001 at 23:55:00 (GMT)
From: moldy warp
Email: None
To: To Nigel again
Subject: Your Book...
Message:
Above post should have read - to Nigel Your book
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Fri, Feb 23, 2001 at 23:57:32 (GMT)
From: moldy warp
Email: None
To: Nigel
Subject: To nigel
Message:
Sorry for confusing messages above- my brain has died
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sat, Feb 24, 2001 at 00:04:08 (GMT)
From: Nigel
Email: None
To: moldy warp
Subject: dead brains? - me too.
Message:
No problem. Life is confusing, exhausting, intriguiging, exhilarating and then boring as fuck (if you've got marking to do. Do you also have to mark stuff m-w?)

As I said above, email me...

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sat, Feb 24, 2001 at 00:26:50 (GMT)
From: moldy warp
Email: None
To: Nigel
Subject: dead brains? - me too.
Message:
Just starting lecturing so no marking yet but will have soon.Yes... life is knackering... and academia is enough to permanently split yopur mind from your body!I've E mailed you.
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Fri, Feb 23, 2001 at 23:47:19 (GMT)
From: Kelly
Email: None
To: Nigel
Subject: Aristotle was one dozy fucker...
Message:
Thanks Nigel, that's put everything in perspective! Aristotle, the master of dozy fuckers! no wonder the Ratguru went for it!

I hope you're coming to Latvian night, I'm looking forward to meeting you. It's shaping up to be a lot of fun.
Feeling a bit dozy myself right now, so I'm off for some kip.
Kelly

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sat, Feb 24, 2001 at 00:14:28 (GMT)
From: Nigel
Email: fiitzroy@liverpool.ac.uk
To: Kelly
Subject: Latvian Night? - Yup - I'm coming too.
Message:
(..in my pants, probably;)

Yes, even if I have to hitch down and sleep in a ditch, I'm going to be there... Have you got the B&B stuff, Kelly? - if so can you email? Ta.

You can thank the blessed Marianne for whatever sad consequences arise from my seemingly now compulsory attendance.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Fri, Feb 23, 2001 at 22:30:52 (GMT)
From: Nigel
Email: None
To: Way
Subject: Stay tuned..
Message:
I recently acquired a fairly new M video where he makes all these unsubstantiated assertions about the underlying force behind evolution knowing exactly where it is going.

I'll transcribe some stuff when I get time. It is riddled with so much sloppy thinking and self-contradiction delivered in that infuriatingly smug, oh-so-knowing manner it sends me screaming all the way to the pub.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Fri, Feb 23, 2001 at 22:34:37 (GMT)
From: Marianne
Email: None
To: Nigel
Subject: Read yer email, Nigel --nt
Message:
xxxx
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Fri, Feb 23, 2001 at 23:01:19 (GMT)
From: Kelly
Email: None
To: Marianne
Subject: Read yer email, Marianne nt
Message:
xxxxx
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sat, Feb 24, 2001 at 00:03:05 (GMT)
From: moldy warp
Email: None
To: everyone
Subject: Socrates revinvented
Message:
Obviously Greek philosophy is a specialism of M's. Do you remember the well researched - 'Socrates said - know thyself'?
Return to Index -:- Top of Index