Forum V: Archive
Compiled: Fri, Mar 02, 2001 at 18:01:16 (GMT)
From: Feb 18, 2001 To: Feb 28, 2001 Page: 3 Of: 5


salam -:- Ipswich community forum -:- Fri, Feb 23, 2001 at 18:21:24 (GMT)
__ janet -:- tell the locals what he really is-ruin his rep -:- Sat, Feb 24, 2001 at 07:45:59 (GMT)
__ __ salam -:- the forum moderator is on holiday -:- Sat, Feb 24, 2001 at 14:39:21 (GMT)

JHB -:- Did the blondes have a free choice? -:- Thurs, Feb 22, 2001 at 22:41:55 (GMT)
__ Barry -:- It's not rape... -:- Fri, Feb 23, 2001 at 02:34:27 (GMT)
__ Jim -:- *Rape* is too strong a word, but not by much -:- Fri, Feb 23, 2001 at 01:41:41 (GMT)
__ __ Joe -:- Good analysis, Jim -:- Fri, Feb 23, 2001 at 23:51:38 (GMT)
__ __ Robyn -:- *Rape* is too strong a word, but not by much -:- Fri, Feb 23, 2001 at 13:25:06 (GMT)
__ __ __ G -:- not by much -:- Fri, Feb 23, 2001 at 18:13:11 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Helen -:- not by much -:- Fri, Feb 23, 2001 at 20:44:52 (GMT)

cq -:- Is this worth linking to ex-premie.org? Yes? -:- Thurs, Feb 22, 2001 at 18:27:54 (GMT)
__ cq -:- and there's more - 'cultism and the law' -:- Thurs, Feb 22, 2001 at 18:39:56 (GMT)
__ __ cq -:- here's the correct link -:- Thurs, Feb 22, 2001 at 18:41:28 (GMT)
__ __ __ moldy warp -:- check out 'repairing the soul after a cult' -:- Sat, Feb 24, 2001 at 19:18:12 (GMT)
__ __ __ bill -:- here's the correct link -:- Fri, Feb 23, 2001 at 06:44:53 (GMT)

cq -:- Hasn't anyone ever pointed out to the Maha - ? -:- Thurs, Feb 22, 2001 at 18:05:54 (GMT)
__ moldy warp -:- Cleaning up my house -:- Fri, Feb 23, 2001 at 00:36:08 (GMT)
__ Ram -:- Have you never felt -:- Thurs, Feb 22, 2001 at 20:24:17 (GMT)
__ __ janet -:- maharaji chain smokes. so he lies. -:- Thurs, Feb 22, 2001 at 21:14:13 (GMT)
__ __ __ CD -:- smoking atoms -:- Fri, Feb 23, 2001 at 07:22:54 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Nigel -:- Clutching at straw-men? -:- Sat, Feb 24, 2001 at 11:55:05 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ la-ex -:- CD's smoking atoms=BEST OF PREMIE BS nt -:- Sat, Feb 24, 2001 at 03:28:40 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Bazza -:- Thanks Chris, you really cleared that one up!!! nt -:- Fri, Feb 23, 2001 at 07:32:27 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Jethro -:- CD is a good example of pwk-'clarity'(nt) -:- Fri, Feb 23, 2001 at 11:53:23 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ CD -:- Yeah, right, OK -:- Fri, Feb 23, 2001 at 07:50:49 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Jim -:- How can anyone talk with you? -:- Fri, Feb 23, 2001 at 16:23:08 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Sandy -:- Jim, you are out of control. -:- Fri, Feb 23, 2001 at 18:31:08 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ cq -:- I've tried to reason with him - -:- Fri, Feb 23, 2001 at 21:06:14 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Sandy -:- Great peice on skepticism -:- Fri, Feb 23, 2001 at 23:01:41 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Jim -:- You're a joke! -:- Sat, Feb 24, 2001 at 03:20:25 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Sandy -:- No joke -:- Sat, Feb 24, 2001 at 21:38:46 (GMT)
__ __ cq -:- 'prana', as the Hindus call it (or chi or ki) - -:- Thurs, Feb 22, 2001 at 20:52:17 (GMT)
__ __ __ CD -:- the good and bad of science -:- Fri, Feb 23, 2001 at 07:24:56 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ cq -:- Science - the good, the bad, and the pseudo ... -:- Fri, Feb 23, 2001 at 20:29:55 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ JohnT -:- good science -:- Fri, Feb 23, 2001 at 13:48:25 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Sandy -:- weird science -:- Fri, Feb 23, 2001 at 16:32:09 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ cq -:- EV published both those excerpts in the last week -:- Fri, Feb 23, 2001 at 18:55:42 (GMT)

Joe -:- So, what happened to the image? -:- Thurs, Feb 22, 2001 at 17:49:22 (GMT)
__ Connie -:- So, what happened to the image? -:- Thurs, Feb 22, 2001 at 22:54:55 (GMT)
__ Postie -:- Glad you asked Joe -:- Thurs, Feb 22, 2001 at 18:51:07 (GMT)
__ __ Babs -:- That premie architect -:- Fri, Feb 23, 2001 at 01:56:34 (GMT)
__ __ __ Elaine -:- That premie architect -:- Sat, Feb 24, 2001 at 23:03:05 (GMT)
__ __ __ Francesca -:- Don't know where he ended up ... -:- Fri, Feb 23, 2001 at 06:08:01 (GMT)
__ __ __ Joe -:- COLL -:- Fri, Feb 23, 2001 at 05:55:54 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Babs -:- COLL -:- Fri, Feb 23, 2001 at 15:12:28 (GMT)
__ __ __ Postie -:- That premie architect - thanks Babs -:- Fri, Feb 23, 2001 at 02:00:42 (GMT)
__ __ Joe -:- Postie, Hmmmm. -:- Thurs, Feb 22, 2001 at 23:11:01 (GMT)
__ __ __ Postie -:- Postie, Hmmmm. -:- Fri, Feb 23, 2001 at 00:19:06 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Joe -:- Postie, Hmmmm. -:- Fri, Feb 23, 2001 at 00:26:54 (GMT)
__ __ Postie -:- Postie - See Bal Bhagwan Ji's plans now! -:- Thurs, Feb 22, 2001 at 19:11:15 (GMT)
__ __ __ Way -:- oops - above post to Postie is from Way (nt) -:- Thurs, Feb 22, 2001 at 19:12:58 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Postie -:- Prem Nagar is looking spiffy these days -:- Thurs, Feb 22, 2001 at 19:27:59 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Brian Smith -:- Prem Nagar is looking spiffy/ I going to go back -:- Fri, Feb 23, 2001 at 05:29:30 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Bin Liner -:- You're joking ?..... hard to tell , -:- Sat, Feb 24, 2001 at 00:41:20 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Brian S -:- You're joking ?..... hard to tell , No joke -:- Sat, Feb 24, 2001 at 04:32:06 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Bin Liner -:- Have a good time , thanks for the invite (nt) -:- Sun, Feb 25, 2001 at 02:47:40 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Katie -:- Going to London - partially for the same reason -:- Sun, Feb 25, 2001 at 02:09:58 (GMT)
__ Way -:- Community of SatChitAnanda -:- Thurs, Feb 22, 2001 at 18:30:08 (GMT)
__ __ Gregg -:- Maharaj Ji, the half-assed guru -:- Thurs, Feb 22, 2001 at 20:02:14 (GMT)
__ __ __ Helen -:- gregg/Way, etal -:- Sat, Feb 24, 2001 at 05:51:18 (GMT)

Jim -:- More ELK droppings -:- Thurs, Feb 22, 2001 at 14:14:51 (GMT)
__ moldy warp -:- Darryl's 'new day' -:- Sat, Feb 24, 2001 at 00:46:20 (GMT)
__ Jim -:- Ooooops! Forgot a good one -:- Thurs, Feb 22, 2001 at 14:18:45 (GMT)
__ __ cq -:- Predictable carbon-copy-cat mush -:- Thurs, Feb 22, 2001 at 19:09:44 (GMT)
__ __ __ moldy warp -:- Predictable carbon-copy-cat mush -:- Sat, Feb 24, 2001 at 00:58:39 (GMT)
__ __ __ CW -:- Easy with the Cat references CQ. -:- Fri, Feb 23, 2001 at 06:18:16 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Jim -:- What a joke YOU are! -:- Fri, Feb 23, 2001 at 16:40:35 (GMT)
__ __ Francesca -:- Seems like the programming has worked well -:- Thurs, Feb 22, 2001 at 18:11:16 (GMT)

JTF -:- rawat in Brussels-12/'89 -:- Thurs, Feb 22, 2001 at 13:25:20 (GMT)
__ CD -:- sources -:- Fri, Feb 23, 2001 at 06:58:42 (GMT)
__ __ Jethro -:- The answer is -:- Fri, Feb 23, 2001 at 11:47:25 (GMT)

Jim -:- Hmm........................... -:- Thurs, Feb 22, 2001 at 12:54:45 (GMT)
__ Bin Liner -:- Falung Gong is a cult , but ........ -:- Sat, Feb 24, 2001 at 02:48:08 (GMT)
__ Mosquito's agree: -:- We love this cult!....nt -:- Fri, Feb 23, 2001 at 06:35:23 (GMT)
__ janet -:- i saw them at the whole life expo-seemed ok -:- Thurs, Feb 22, 2001 at 23:02:05 (GMT)
__ __ JHB -:- Definition of freaky or weird? -:- Thurs, Feb 22, 2001 at 23:09:25 (GMT)
__ __ __ janet -:- you want me to answer? or rhetorical? -:- Thurs, Feb 22, 2001 at 23:53:47 (GMT)

jondon -:- 3 of the 7 Amaroo..... -:- Thurs, Feb 22, 2001 at 05:54:25 (GMT)
__ janet -:- service at Amaroo isnt free, or so i read..... -:- Thurs, Feb 22, 2001 at 07:08:54 (GMT)
__ __ Aussi Ji -:- service at Amaroo isnt free, or so i read..... -:- Thurs, Feb 22, 2001 at 10:19:49 (GMT)

la-ex -:- You too,can make 10mil/yr plus in your spare time! -:- Thurs, Feb 22, 2001 at 04:40:54 (GMT)
__ salam -:- maybe, but -:- Thurs, Feb 22, 2001 at 11:38:50 (GMT)

Joe -:- So, what did you imagine...... -:- Wed, Feb 21, 2001 at 23:18:40 (GMT)
__ TED Farkel -:- OK, here's what I imagined..... -:- Sat, Feb 24, 2001 at 03:48:03 (GMT)
__ cq -:- ... what was being advertised? -:- Thurs, Feb 22, 2001 at 19:34:51 (GMT)
__ Scott T. -:- So, what did you imagine...... -:- Thurs, Feb 22, 2001 at 19:20:59 (GMT)
__ __ Ulf -:- So, what did you imagine...... -:- Thurs, Feb 22, 2001 at 21:30:33 (GMT)
__ Katie -:- So, what did you imagine...... -:- Thurs, Feb 22, 2001 at 12:13:38 (GMT)
__ Jim -:- Narnia -:- Thurs, Feb 22, 2001 at 01:10:03 (GMT)
__ __ Connie -:- Narnia plus Krishna and a lamb -:- Thurs, Feb 22, 2001 at 02:04:29 (GMT)
__ __ Bin Liner -:- Me too , Narnia ,the vision of... -:- Thurs, Feb 22, 2001 at 01:53:16 (GMT)
__ __ Joe -:- And we would eat.... -:- Thurs, Feb 22, 2001 at 01:26:51 (GMT)
__ __ __ Jim -:- And everyone would thank us all the time -:- Thurs, Feb 22, 2001 at 03:07:28 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ janet -:- i can forgive u everything, hearing this -:- Thurs, Feb 22, 2001 at 07:47:52 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Joe -:- Yes, and everyone would wear Earth Shoes -:- Thurs, Feb 22, 2001 at 06:24:01 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Postie -:- This is too freakin' much - hilarious! -:- Thurs, Feb 22, 2001 at 04:01:29 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Steve Quint -:- And The Cat Shall Talk With The Dog nt -:- Thurs, Feb 22, 2001 at 03:14:48 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Deputy Dog -:- Your head is still at Woodstock man! (nt) -:- Thurs, Feb 22, 2001 at 03:23:31 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Connie -:- Your head is still at Woodstock man! (nt) -:- Thurs, Feb 22, 2001 at 08:32:25 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Steve Quint -:- I Came Upon A Child Of God -:- Thurs, Feb 22, 2001 at 03:36:44 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ cq -:- but dear, sweet Joni (I do love her) got it wrong -:- Thurs, Feb 22, 2001 at 20:02:48 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Steve Quint -:- No She Didn't -:- Sat, Feb 24, 2001 at 04:15:01 (GMT)
__ Francesca -:- Too much to spill it out all at once ... -:- Thurs, Feb 22, 2001 at 00:51:34 (GMT)
__ Been There -:- Same as you... -:- Thurs, Feb 22, 2001 at 00:29:54 (GMT)
__ Brian S -:- So, what did you imagine......Holy Shit -:- Thurs, Feb 22, 2001 at 00:19:03 (GMT)
__ Joe -:- Also, state the year you rec'd K. -:- Wed, Feb 21, 2001 at 23:30:44 (GMT)
__ __ Disculta -:- October 1971 reporting in. -:- Thurs, Feb 22, 2001 at 06:52:03 (GMT)
__ __ JHB -:- Dec 1973 (nt) -:- Wed, Feb 21, 2001 at 23:42:08 (GMT)
__ JHB -:- I was a selfish bastard.... -:- Wed, Feb 21, 2001 at 23:27:44 (GMT)
__ __ Gregg -:- Me, too: selfish bastard -:- Thurs, Feb 22, 2001 at 15:07:11 (GMT)
__ __ __ Way -:- Me, too: selfish bastard -:- Thurs, Feb 22, 2001 at 16:27:42 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ gerry -:- Way, your comments reflect my thinking also -:- Thurs, Feb 22, 2001 at 17:27:25 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Way -:- Thanks, gerry, reminds me... -:- Thurs, Feb 22, 2001 at 17:50:31 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ gerry -:- Thanks, gerry, reminds me... -:- Thurs, Feb 22, 2001 at 18:40:48 (GMT)
__ __ Marianne -:- November, '72 - Egalitarian paradise -:- Thurs, Feb 22, 2001 at 09:02:07 (GMT)
__ __ __ Pat Conlon -:- April Fool's Day '73 - 25 yo - Heaven on Earth NT -:- Fri, Feb 23, 2001 at 02:11:59 (GMT)

Barry -:- bill and katie how did you beat the guilt? -:- Wed, Feb 21, 2001 at 17:58:45 (GMT)
__ Scott T. -:- bill and katie how did you beat the guilt? -:- Thurs, Feb 22, 2001 at 07:46:58 (GMT)
__ __ Barry -:- WHAaAaAaAahOoOoOo cRaZy MaN!!(nt) -:- Fri, Feb 23, 2001 at 02:51:35 (GMT)
__ Katie -:- bill and katie how did you beat the guilt? -:- Thurs, Feb 22, 2001 at 03:15:40 (GMT)
__ __ Barry -:- Thanks Katie(nt) -:- Thurs, Feb 22, 2001 at 20:23:53 (GMT)
__ __ Katie -:- P.S. Barry -:- Thurs, Feb 22, 2001 at 12:07:50 (GMT)
__ Barry -:- I don't get these responces? -:- Thurs, Feb 22, 2001 at 01:28:41 (GMT)
__ bill--no need for a new -:- thread Barry, if it is still in active index then, -:- Wed, Feb 21, 2001 at 21:38:12 (GMT)
__ __ bill--The Mike Dettmers -:- posts willremove your last fears of being wrong.nt -:- Wed, Feb 21, 2001 at 21:43:44 (GMT)
__ Bin Liner -:- Rawat was JC . In the FLESH , no less -:- Wed, Feb 21, 2001 at 20:37:16 (GMT)
__ __ Jethro -:- BL - get your facts straight!!! -:- Thurs, Feb 22, 2001 at 00:01:20 (GMT)
__ __ __ Brian Smith -:- BL-get your facts straight! Check this story out, -:- Thurs, Feb 22, 2001 at 09:21:16 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Barry -:- Really good story. Thank you Brian.(nt) -:- Fri, Feb 23, 2001 at 02:31:24 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Jethro -:- Remembered another -:- Thurs, Feb 22, 2001 at 19:18:28 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Katie -:- Great story, Brian S! -:- Thurs, Feb 22, 2001 at 12:15:45 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Brian S -:- Great story, Brian S! I got that car because -:- Thurs, Feb 22, 2001 at 19:36:37 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Katie -:- The other premies must have loved it... -:- Fri, Feb 23, 2001 at 17:11:26 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Brian S -:- The other premies must have loved it... -:- Fri, Feb 23, 2001 at 23:24:45 (GMT)
__ __ __ Postie -:- Bramha, Vishnu, Shiva -:- Thurs, Feb 22, 2001 at 04:22:01 (GMT)
__ Lurker #27 -:- Barry, you are talking pretty uppity . . -:- Wed, Feb 21, 2001 at 19:13:21 (GMT)
__ __ Barry -:- Are you saying I should get some?(nt) -:- Thurs, Feb 22, 2001 at 01:14:46 (GMT)
__ __ Selene -:- everyone has K or no one does -:- Wed, Feb 21, 2001 at 22:21:30 (GMT)
__ __ __ Barry -:- and he never said it was his gift to you?(nt) -:- Thurs, Feb 22, 2001 at 01:37:53 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ CD -:- said -:- Thurs, Feb 22, 2001 at 02:42:11 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Barry -:- CD Why do you do this? -:- Thurs, Feb 22, 2001 at 20:41:37 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ CD -:- Why -:- Fri, Feb 23, 2001 at 00:57:56 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Barry -:- C'mon CD.... -:- Fri, Feb 23, 2001 at 02:21:49 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Jethro -:- Premies can't help it -:- Fri, Feb 23, 2001 at 04:55:33 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Barry -:- True enough!(nt) -:- Sat, Feb 24, 2001 at 00:24:16 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Marianne -:- FA, can you delete this satsang crap from CD? -:- Thurs, Feb 22, 2001 at 09:08:23 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ CD -:- FA, can you delete this satsang crap from CD? -:- Fri, Feb 23, 2001 at 01:01:22 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Forum Admin -:- No - CD provides a valuable service -:- Thurs, Feb 22, 2001 at 10:44:23 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Francesca -:- Amen on that one and all folks ... -:- Thurs, Feb 22, 2001 at 18:23:35 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Marianne -:- Hello FA -:- Thurs, Feb 22, 2001 at 10:58:24 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Selene -:- so? -:- Thurs, Feb 22, 2001 at 03:17:27 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ CD -:- so? OT -:- Fri, Feb 23, 2001 at 07:08:05 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Selene -:- and he never said it was his gift to you?(nt) -:- Thurs, Feb 22, 2001 at 02:13:49 (GMT)
__ __ __ Daneane -:- I love that response -:- Wed, Feb 21, 2001 at 23:17:35 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Selene -:- I love that response - exactly -:- Wed, Feb 21, 2001 at 23:48:13 (GMT)
__ JHB -:- how did you beat the guilt? -:- Wed, Feb 21, 2001 at 18:27:25 (GMT)
__ __ Barry -:- Question? -:- Wed, Feb 21, 2001 at 18:35:20 (GMT)
__ __ __ Scott T. -:- Question? -:- Thurs, Feb 22, 2001 at 08:15:20 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Barry -:- Scott. You were one of the lucky ones for sure! -:- Thurs, Feb 22, 2001 at 20:35:14 (GMT)
__ __ __ JHB -:- Attempt at an answer -:- Wed, Feb 21, 2001 at 21:56:01 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Barry -:- So your saying.... -:- Thurs, Feb 22, 2001 at 01:20:59 (GMT)
__ __ __ Barry -:- I'm off. Got to get my blood transfusion!(nt) -:- Wed, Feb 21, 2001 at 18:44:30 (GMT)

G -:- 'Infinity Ultima Thule' -:- Wed, Feb 21, 2001 at 16:21:05 (GMT)
__ G -:- Power of the placebo -:- Wed, Feb 21, 2001 at 16:43:05 (GMT)
__ Scott T. -:- 'Infinity Ultima Thule' -:- Wed, Feb 21, 2001 at 16:34:28 (GMT)
__ __ Joe -:- I thought the same thing -:- Wed, Feb 21, 2001 at 22:34:50 (GMT)
__ __ __ janet -:- huh-bboyy..sigh. shakes head. not another one. -:- Thurs, Feb 22, 2001 at 08:18:52 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Scott T. -:- huh-bboyy..sigh. shakes head. not another one. -:- Thurs, Feb 22, 2001 at 20:11:38 (GMT)

Way -:- Bios of Shri Hans and Mataji -:- Wed, Feb 21, 2001 at 15:38:44 (GMT)
__ Louella Parsnip -:- Sex, Hansji and no Video Tape... -:- Wed, Feb 21, 2001 at 19:43:35 (GMT)
__ __ Jethro -:- Sex, Hansji and no Video Tape... -:- Wed, Feb 21, 2001 at 23:56:42 (GMT)
__ Jethro -:- Facts???? -:- Wed, Feb 21, 2001 at 19:06:53 (GMT)


Date: Fri, Feb 23, 2001 at 18:21:24 (GMT)
From: salam
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: Ipswich community forum
Message:
in case you did not know, the Ipswich council has a comminity forum. You can ask anything you want. I just subscribed to it, needs a password. So now you can ask all these questions that you never thought you can find an answer. Well this is the link.

Click me

you need to scroll down until you get to the bulletin boards, click and select Ipswich.. Maybe we should move f5 there for a week, ha?

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Date: Sat, Feb 24, 2001 at 07:45:59 (GMT)
From: janet
Email: None
To: salam
Subject: tell the locals what he really is-ruin his rep
Message:
i'm all for it.
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Date: Sat, Feb 24, 2001 at 14:39:21 (GMT)
From: salam
Email: None
To: janet
Subject: the forum moderator is on holiday
Message:
for the week end, still have not got my password yet, but I think it is better to take it easy as not to scare the locals. But am working on it.

Rawat, Rawat, your ass is mine.

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Date: Thurs, Feb 22, 2001 at 22:41:55 (GMT)
From: JHB
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: Did the blondes have a free choice?
Message:
I posted the following to Cat in a thread that's now gone inactive, after Cat made light of Maharaji asking Dettmers to procure female premies for him. Am I justified in calling this rape?

In a workplace when a senior male manager makes advances towards a junior female member of staff, it places the junior in a very difficult situation. Assuming she doesn't particularly fancy him, she has a difficult choice - refuse and damage her career, or accept, and do something she doesn't want to do.

Now change the senior manager for the Superior Power in Person (SPIP), and the junior employee by the SPIP's devotee. It's not just her career that she damages by refusing, she would risking her entire future. You just don't say no to the SPIP.

If he really is the SPIP, then fine.

If he's not, it's rape.

So, Cat, which is it from where you sit?

John.

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Date: Fri, Feb 23, 2001 at 02:34:27 (GMT)
From: Barry
Email: None
To: JHB
Subject: It's not rape...
Message:
The women still had a choice to tell fatso's underpimps to fuck off. No matter what was at stake for them.
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Date: Fri, Feb 23, 2001 at 01:41:41 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: JHB
Subject: *Rape* is too strong a word, but not by much
Message:
John,

The term 'rape' might be a bit much because, as it should, 'rape' implies a physically forced sexual assault. But I can tell you how this might go down in Canada, terminology-wise, at least. Canada's eliminated the term 'rape' from the law altogether. It's never used. Instead, there's just the simple, broader and much vaguer term, 'sexual assault'. That term covers the whole range from an unwanted kiss to classic rape.

Now what's an assault? Simple -- any unwanted touching. What's a SEXUAL assault? An unwanted touching for a sexual purpose. That's it. Could be anything from a stolen pinch on the bum to the ugliest rape imaginable.

Well, the 'blondes' apparently consented, I guess. We don't hear otherwise and indeed, there's every likelihood that they consented with great enthusiasm. He is pretty good looking, after all .... no, that's not it. Oh yeah, he's the Lord. So isn't that the end of the matter?

No, hardly. Consent can be vitiated by fraud. If a guy poses as a doctor and tricks a woman into letting him 'examine' her, yes, she might be ostensibly consenting to the examination but her consent wouldn't count for shit if it can be proven that she was defrauded into giving it. That there doctor could and, likely would, be charged with sexual assault.

The analogy's quite straight-forward: if women consented to sleeping with Maharaji only because he tricked them into thinking he was their Lord and they really had no reasonable choice in the matter -- that's the hard part -- then Maharaji could be guilty of sexual assault. But did they have a 'reasonable' choice in the matter? Tough one, perhaps. But those are the issues anyway.

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Date: Fri, Feb 23, 2001 at 23:51:38 (GMT)
From: Joe
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Good analysis, Jim
Message:
I think that is the crux of this. It was an extremely UNEQUAL proposition and acceptance, to the point where it's hard to even use the word 'consent.'

However I seem to recall that someone posted that a woman was propositioned by Maharaji for sex in a hotel in New York, and that she refused. I guess he got her to go over to his (I am sure groovy and palatial) hotel suite, but she freaked at the proposition, and I think she left the cult as a result, if I remember the story correctly. So, some people did refuse.

One wonders if Maharaji worked out techniques to make it more likely to get these premie women to consent to sex. For example, I'm sure using an intermediary (like Michael until he refused), would make it more likely that somebody would consent, and it would avoid situations in which Maharaji would get turned down, in really embarrassing situations like if he already had lowered his Krishna pants and all.

I have a hard time putting myself in that position, but I know that my concept of Maharaji was not even in the most remote thought, sexual. It as all spititual, and 'above' physical things like sex. So, I would imagine that someone who had the same viewpoint might have been more shocked by the proposition than anything else.

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Date: Fri, Feb 23, 2001 at 13:25:06 (GMT)
From: Robyn
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: *Rape* is too strong a word, but not by much
Message:
Jim,
Athough the term sexual assault seems frought with over kill in describing the stolen pinch on the bum and makes light of a violent rape I like the idea as far as you've taken it. I would think though that the punishment would suit the crime it does seem to get past the vaugeness of what I believe is still the term in the US of sexual harrasement which was what I would have thought of m's actions as.
Even if a devotee thought of it as some kind of honor to be chosen by her 'lord' still it is hard to imagine anyone being enthusiastic about sex with the guy. He always made my skin crawl in that regard.
No matter what the term it was/is surely an abuse of the power his position affords him.
Robyn
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Date: Fri, Feb 23, 2001 at 18:13:11 (GMT)
From: G
Email: None
To: Robyn
Subject: not by much
Message:
He didn't use physical force, as in rape, but he did use psychological force, so it at least qualifies as sexual harrassment and an abuse of power. All his talk about 'rotting vegetables' and such gives him the psychological equivalant of a gun as long as a premie believes his bullshit. That's why it's lame for a premie to say 'Nobody put a gun to your head.'

I'd say they didn't really have a free choice, they didn't have enough time to assess the situation, renounce their beliefs about him as their 'Lord' and 'Master', and reject him. I think what he has done is far worse than ordinary sexual harrassment, in effect it's more like rape, maybe in some ways even worse. By that I mean it probably had more pronounced negative effects of certain types (like blaming themselves) on his victims than rape.

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Date: Fri, Feb 23, 2001 at 20:44:52 (GMT)
From: Helen
Email: None
To: G
Subject: not by much
Message:
I agree, G.
If you look at free choice or free will, that's pretty much given over to M at the knowledge session (or at least was back then). If you'd chop off your head for M, surely having sex with him if he asks it, must be done. There's no room for doubt in one's mind, after all.

I think it's the cheapest, dirtiest, scummiest thing of all. His contempt for 'his' premies oozes from these actions.

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Date: Thurs, Feb 22, 2001 at 18:27:54 (GMT)
From: cq
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: Is this worth linking to ex-premie.org? Yes?
Message:
'All cults, no matter their stripe, are a variation on a theme, for their
common denominator is the use of coercive persuasion and behavior
control without the knowledge of the person who is being
manipulated. '

A small excerpt from http://www.csj.org/studyindex/studyrecovery/study_repairsoul.htm - the article (a long one) is well worth checking out.

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Date: Thurs, Feb 22, 2001 at 18:39:56 (GMT)
From: cq
Email: None
To: cq
Subject: and there's more - 'cultism and the law'
Message:
could be of interest to those of a legal bent - if you pardon the expression ;)

seriously, though, there's interesting stuff here:
http://www.csj.org/pubs_co/guestcolumn/cultismandlaw.htm

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Date: Thurs, Feb 22, 2001 at 18:41:28 (GMT)
From: cq
Email: None
To: all
Subject: here's the correct link
Message:
http://www.csj.org/pubs_co/guestcolumn/cultismandlaw.htm
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Date: Sat, Feb 24, 2001 at 19:18:12 (GMT)
From: moldy warp
Email: None
To: everyone
Subject: check out 'repairing the soul after a cult'
Message:
The link is at the very bottom of the page of cq's link
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Date: Fri, Feb 23, 2001 at 06:44:53 (GMT)
From: bill
Email: None
To: cq
Subject: here's the correct link
Message:
We have forum lawyers better tailored to our wierd cult.
that is one freaky cult cq!
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Date: Thurs, Feb 22, 2001 at 18:05:54 (GMT)
From: cq
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: Hasn't anyone ever pointed out to the Maha - ?
Message:
Hasn't anyone ever pointed out to the Maha that when we die we stop breathing? That 'infinite' implies 'never-ending'? That his ill-educated and infantile attempts at philosophy merely emphasise his evident ineptitude for the role of a 'master'?

.
.
.
This is today's tosh from EV:

A VIP visitor

Edited excerpt, Maharaji in Alexandria, 18th June 2000


If somebody were to say to you, 'Your
favorite actor, or your favorite singer,
is going to come to your house,”
immediately you 'd begin to clean up,
you'd begin to straighten up. You'd
think, 'Oh wow, this is so exciting, this
is so incredible.' You would call your
friends, you'd let everybody know,
so-and-so may be coming to my
house. Well, what if I told you that the
infinite - that power that cannot be
created and cannot be destroyed -that from which
everything comes and to which everything goes. That
which is complete. That which is beyond definitions.
That which is beyond concepts. That which is beyond
the reach of the mind, will come and visit you. Would
you be excited? Well then, I've got news for you: it
does. Proof? Your breath.

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Date: Fri, Feb 23, 2001 at 00:36:08 (GMT)
From: moldy warp
Email: None
To: cq
Subject: Cleaning up my house
Message:
Actually I probably would clean up my (messy) house in a panic thinking that my house wasn't good enough for aforesaid mentioned favourite singer. But I would be aware that my motivations were dodgy...that I was not confident to just be me in my messy house.Just like with K. - always feeling I was not good enough, always should do better, etc etc blah blah... total opposite of accepting, loving spirituality. God what horrible subliminal messages are in M's stuff
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Date: Thurs, Feb 22, 2001 at 20:24:17 (GMT)
From: Ram
Email: None
To: cq
Subject: Have you never felt
Message:
that within the breath there is a power
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Date: Thurs, Feb 22, 2001 at 21:14:13 (GMT)
From: janet
Email: None
To: Ram
Subject: maharaji chain smokes. so he lies.
Message:
if the breath is infinite, if the breath is the visitation of the almighty creator to our bodies, then maha is lying both ways. he's poisoning his breath and the temple of his body, throwing filth in the path of where god enters it.
tht tells me what he really thinks of god.
and he's lying to us by telling us he is the master of what ths means and how it takes place.
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Date: Fri, Feb 23, 2001 at 07:22:54 (GMT)
From: CD
Email: None
To: janet
Subject: smoking atoms
Message:
I don't think it has to do with the breath in that way.

Anyways.
What is the thing that is looking out of your eyes?
That is still the big question.
And I don't believe it is ideas.

When the scientists look at matter they theorize that it has an equivalence to energy. Hence the atomic bomb which gives off a tremendous amount of energy by trading in a bit of mass.
Now we are also made of matter and hence our whole physical being has an equivalence to energy.
What does that really mean.
This is where stuff like the infinite comes into play.
And by the way. Those atoms that everything is built out of.
They don't really exist.
They are just a convenient model for predicting certain types of outcomes.
When the scientist dig inside to see those atoms they see that they are mostly empty and what is there they really don't understand. But of course there are more theories for that.

So when you become quiet and observe. There may actually be something there to observe. You!
If we try it and nothing is observed. Then thats that for us.
But, sometimes there is something that becomes apparent in a way that is difficult to explain.

CD

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Date: Sat, Feb 24, 2001 at 11:55:05 (GMT)
From: Nigel
Email: None
To: CD
Subject: Clutching at straw-men?
Message:
I don't think it has to do with the breath in that way.

So could you clarify your terms, here? Tell us what you DO think.

Anyways.
What is the thing that is looking out of your eyes?
That is still the big question.
And I don't believe it is ideas.

Is anybody here suggesting it IS ideas looking out of our eyes? Talk about paper tigers..

When the scientists look at matter they theorize that it has an equivalence to energy. Hence the atomic bomb which gives off a tremendous amount of energy by trading in a bit of mass.
Now we are also made of matter and hence our whole physical being has an equivalence to energy.

If true, then as true of a corpse as a living person, therefore irrelevant to questions of consciousness.

What does that really mean.

That's what you should try and explain. You raised the issue.

This is where stuff like the infinite comes into play.

Other than a mathematical construct, what is this so-called 'infinity' you keep going on about? Does it mean you can meditate forever, or that you simply journey to places beyond the edge of the universe? WHAT do you mean, exactly, that could possibly justify your use of the expression?

And by the way. Those atoms that everything is built out of.They don't really exist.They are just a convenient model for predicting certain types of outcomes.When the scientist dig inside to see those atoms they see that they are mostly empty and what is there they really don't understand. But of course there are more theories for that.

Ah, yes - the paradoxical behaviour of particles at quantum level gives endless scope for new-age speculation, doesn't it? (But what about 'decoherence'? From atomic-level upwards, Einstein rules, and from molecular-level, Darwin.) There is no need to call in our unfinished understanding of quantum physics as evidence for anything unless you are prepared to explain why we need to do that. It's crap thinking, or sheer bloody obfuscation to imply that because 'X' is mysterious and 'Y' is mysterious, 'X' therefore = 'Y'.

So when you become quiet and observe. There may actually be something there to observe. You!

It's a bit like trying to taste your own tongue, isn't it? I can understand why you're sometimes lost for words.

If we try it and nothing is observed. Then thats that for us.
But, sometimes there is something that becomes apparent in a way that is difficult to explain.

What are you like at explaining the easy stuff?

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Date: Sat, Feb 24, 2001 at 03:28:40 (GMT)
From: la-ex
Email: None
To: CD
Subject: CD's smoking atoms=BEST OF PREMIE BS nt
Message:
nt
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Date: Fri, Feb 23, 2001 at 07:32:27 (GMT)
From: Bazza
Email: None
To: CD
Subject: Thanks Chris, you really cleared that one up!!! nt
Message:
nt
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Date: Fri, Feb 23, 2001 at 11:53:23 (GMT)
From: Jethro
Email: None
To: Bazza
Subject: CD is a good example of pwk-'clarity'(nt)
Message:
nt
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Date: Fri, Feb 23, 2001 at 07:50:49 (GMT)
From: CD
Email: None
To: Bazza
Subject: Yeah, right, OK
Message:
So Bazza.

Whats your take on the stuff?

Atoms, energy, infinity, endless universe, endless time, limited lifespan, Sierra Nevada.

Sometimes it just better to kick back and bang on the guitar instead of the head.

CD

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Date: Fri, Feb 23, 2001 at 16:23:08 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: CD
Subject: How can anyone talk with you?
Message:
Chris,

You've proven that you can't be trusted. You lied about one of the most unarguable facts ever in our common experience, i.e. that Maharaji warned us to mistrust the mind. So why would anyone ever take anything else you say seriously? What's the point? You'll just lie again whenever you think you have to. You wre probably smiling when you posted that lie, weren't you? Asshole.

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Date: Fri, Feb 23, 2001 at 18:31:08 (GMT)
From: Sandy
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Jim, you are out of control.
Message:
Jim,

Your post to CD is almost word-for-word what you did to me awhile back. Somebody can look it up...maybe you have a template in your computer that you use, who knows? Unless someone in your cross-hairs immediately agrees with you, sees things your way, abandons their own position as soon as they've seen the whites of your eyes, you are ready to cut off their vital organs and burn them at the stake.

In a courtroom, this may be an enviable trait. In a Forum, I think it is unseemly, rude, crude, ugly and impolite. Once again, I say with all certainty that even if I had 'ex-premie' tattooed on my chest in full color, I would still be offended by your rough and nasty manner, and I would tell you so.

Sandy

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Date: Fri, Feb 23, 2001 at 21:06:14 (GMT)
From: cq
Email: None
To: Sandy
Subject: I've tried to reason with him -
Message:
- in a thread above, which goes like this:

.
.
.

Jim, could you please have a go at taking this (from the Skeptical Enquirer website) on
board?

.
.
.
'Skeptical thinkers must realize that because of the survival value of beliefs,
disconfirming evidence will rarely, if ever, be sufficient to change beliefs, even in
'otherwise intelligent' people. In order to effectively change beliefs skeptics must
attend to their survival value, not just their data-accuracy value. This involves
several elements.

First, skeptics must not expect beliefs to change simply as the result of data or
assuming that people are stupid because their beliefs don't change. They must
avoid becoming critical or demeaning in response to the resilience of beliefs.
People are not necessarily idiots just because their beliefs don't yield to new
information. Data is always necessary, but it is rarely sufficient.

Second, skeptics must learn to always discuss not just the specific topic addressed
by the data, but also the implications that changing the related beliefs will
have for the fundamental worldview and belief system of the affected
individuals. Unfortunately, addressing belief systems is a much more complicated
and daunting task than simply presenting contradictory evidence. Skeptics must
discuss the meaning of their data in the face of the brain's need to maintain its belief
system in order to maintain a sense of wholeness, consistency, and control in life.
Skeptics must become adept at discussing issues of fundamental philosophies and
the existential anxiety that is stirred up any time beliefs are challenged. The task is
every bit as much philosophical and psychological as it is scientific and
data-based.

Third, and perhaps most important, skeptics must always appreciate how hard it is
for people to have their beliefs challenged. It is, quite literally, a threat to their
brain's sense of survival. It is entirely normal for people to be defensive in such
situations. The brain feels it is fighting for its life. It is unfortunate that this can
produce behavior that is provocative, hostile, and even vicious, but it is
understandable as well.

The lesson for skeptics is to understand that people are generally not intending to
be mean, contrary, harsh, or stupid when they are challenged. It's a fight for
survival. The only effective way to deal with this type of defensiveness is to
de-escalate the fighting rather than inflame it. Becoming sarcastic or demeaning
simply gives the other person's defenses a foothold to engage in a tit-for-tat
exchange that justifies their feelings of being threatened ('Of course we fight the
skeptics-look what uncaring, hostile jerks they are!') rather than a continued focus
on the truth.

Skeptics will only win the war for rational beliefs by continuing, even in the face of
defensive responses from others, to use behavior that is unfailingly dignified and
tactful and that communicates respect and wisdom. For the data to speak loudly,
skeptics must always refrain from screaming.

Finally, it should be comforting to all skeptics to remember that the truly amazing
part of all of this is not that so few beliefs change or that people can be so
irrational, but that anyone's beliefs ever change at all. Skeptics' ability to alter their
own beliefs in response to data is a true gift; a unique, powerful, and precious
ability. It is genuinely a 'higher brain function' in that it goes against some of the
most natural and fundamental biological urges. Skeptics must appreciate the
power and, truly, the dangerousness that this ability bestows upon them. They
have in their possession a skill that can be frightening, life-changing, and capable of
inducing pain. In turning this ability on others it should be used carefully and wisely.
Challenging beliefs must always be done with care and compassion.

Skeptics must remember to always keep their eye on the goal. They must see the
long view. They must attempt to win the war for rational beliefs, not to engage in a
fight to the death over any one particular battle with any one particular individual
or any one particular belief. Not only must skeptics' methods and data be clean,
direct, and unbiased, their demeanor and behavior must be as well.'

.
.
.

I'm starting to see Jim's empassioned attacks as symptomatic of someone who's defending his position just a TAD too emphatically for credibility.

Does that reflect on the Forum as a whole, I wonder?

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Date: Fri, Feb 23, 2001 at 23:01:41 (GMT)
From: Sandy
Email: None
To: cq
Subject: Great peice on skepticism
Message:
cq,

Thank you for posting it. In any forum, there must be rules to govern and maintain the common civility. For all the words on the cover pages of this forum, there does not seem to be such a set of rules, thus the constant headpeckery without end or solution.

If someone is being continually evasive, ignore them! Simple.
But if someone is sincerely trying to cut through some deep shit,
I say have patience and compassion. Now who is the one wise enough to determine who is who? Right, no one. So therefore, each of us must proceed with the light that is given to us. If one person cannot connect with someone, most likely someone else can. No need for mean spiritedness, that just complicates matters.

Sandy

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Date: Sat, Feb 24, 2001 at 03:20:25 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Sandy
Subject: You're a joke!
Message:
If someone is being continually evasive, ignore them! Simple.
But if someone is sincerely trying to cut through some deep shit,
I say have patience and compassion. Now who is the one wise enough to determine who is who? Right, no one.

Looks like you're having a REALLY hard time figuring out just what you think, huh? One second it's 'ignor them!' The next, it's 'who am I to judge?' If you ever escape your new age ghetto you'll be able to do a little better than this. THIS, I'm afraid, is pathetic.

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Date: Sat, Feb 24, 2001 at 21:38:46 (GMT)
From: Sandy
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: No joke
Message:
It is said that you can't bullshit schizophrenics, kids, animals, God or the enlightened. I think I'm a little bit of all of the above. My measuring stick is how something that is said or done feels inside in the here and now, how it resonates. The rest is pundits and talking heads. I will leave that part to you.

You would probably prefer a computer to predict the weather while I would sooner trust a farmer or a shaman.

Tomato tomaahto.

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Date: Thurs, Feb 22, 2001 at 20:52:17 (GMT)
From: cq
Email: None
To: Ram
Subject: 'prana', as the Hindus call it (or chi or ki) -
Message:
- is (at least to those who have experienced it) real, experiential, and valid. But it's just a name for an experience - a human experience.

To claim (as M does) that the energy generated by the breath is 'that from which everything comes and to which everything goes' is NOT good science. And just because he and you and I have heard it described as such does NOT make it true.

The whole 'The Knowledge is knowledge of God' -spiel is likewise bad science and blatant jumping to conclusions.

And what is even LESS valid is Maharaji's insiduous claim that this 'gift' of the breath, as he calls it, should somehow make premies dependent on him.

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Date: Fri, Feb 23, 2001 at 07:24:56 (GMT)
From: CD
Email: None
To: cq
Subject: the good and bad of science
Message:
>The whole 'The Knowledge is knowledge of God' -spiel is likewise bad science and blatant jumping to conclusions.

What is 'good science' ?

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Date: Fri, Feb 23, 2001 at 20:29:55 (GMT)
From: cq
Email: None
To: CD
Subject: Science - the good, the bad, and the pseudo ...
Message:
In an attempt to answer your question, CD, and without making any pretense at being a scientist myself (whether good, bad or indifferent), I can only give you my opinion on what 'good science' is. So here goes:

Good science, beleive it or not, has a lot to do with attitude. I think it most often springs from the research of people whose attitude embodies principles such as honesty and integrity. The scientist who wants an experiment to lead to a particular conclusion ain't even on the team.

An ability - willingness even - to start from scratch when all your years of research have just been disproved by one instance that doesn't fit with your previous findings. That's the kind of perseverance in the quest for truth that marks out a good scientist.

But that's just my opinion.

A more scientific answer to your question would take the form of this quote from Larry Crowder, of Duke University Marine Laboratory, who, when asked 'Where does science begin?' said:

'It often begins when a phenomenon has been observed in
the field. From there a scientist attempts to determine what it is and what the
facts are surrounding it: this becomes the basis for forming an hypothesis.

It becomes scientific fact only when it has been repeatedly tested and
validated by other independent scientists after multiple attempts at negating the
hypotheses have failed.

There are many possible explanations for any occurrence and these
alternatives must be eliminated in the scientific process.
Sometimes scientists are attracted to a particular hypothesis and try to
develop a case to support that idea without carefully considering alternative
hypotheses or the possibility that processes interact. Scientists progress more
rapidly in their understanding when they explicitly consider multiple alternative
hypotheses.'

We start the scientific method with observations. We observe events and seek to explain them. Such an explanation is initially termed a hypothesis.

A Hypothesis is:

A trial idea about the nature of the observation, or the connections between a chain of events, or cause and effect relationships.
The best available approximation to the truth.
It is a straw man- there is nothing sacred about it.
It is used as a framework for posing questions.
It is tested by asking and answering questions.

With more and more thought, it is possible to develop more and more explanations, some more plausible than others. Having developed a family of explanations, hypotheses, it is necessary to test our hypotheses. What we try to do is sequentially show that the hypotheses are wrong.


The traditional Scientific Method consists of 5 steps:

1. Definition of the Problem.

2. Gathering of Relevant Data.

3. Formulation of a Hypothesis.

4. Observation or Experimentation to test Hypothesis.

5. Acceptance, Modification, or Rejection of the Hypothesis.

Qualities of good science are:

1.Not based on authority
2.Testable
3.Repeatable
4.Universal
5.Measurable (Tangible)
6.Observable
7.Narrow (Occam's razor)/Simple

Here's an important description of something that's worse than bad science, and that's pseudo-science: (from http://www.csicop.org/si/9711/preposterism.html)


Pseudo-Inquiry; and the Real Thing

'A genuine inquirer aims to find out the truth of some question, whatever the color
of that truth.

A pseudo-inquirer seeks to make a case for the truth of some proposition(s) determined in advance.

There are two kinds of pseudo-inquirer, the sham and the fake.

A sham reasoner is concerned, not to find out how things really are, but to make a case for some immovably-held preconceived conviction.

A fake reasoner is concerned, not to find out how things really are, but to advance himself by making a case for some proposition to the truth-value of which he is indifferent.

Neither sham nor fake inquiry is really inquiry; but we need to get beyond this
tautology to understand what is wrong with sham and fake reasoning. The sham
inquirer tries to make a case for the truth of a proposition his commitment to which
is already evidence- and argument-proof. The fake inquirer tries to make a case
for some proposition advancing which he thinks will enhance his own reputation,
but to the truth-value of which he is indifferent. (Such indifference is, as Harry
Frankfurt once shrewdly observed, the characteristic attitude of the bullshitter.)3
Both the sham and the fake inquirer, but especially the sham, are motivated to
avoid examining any apparently contrary evidence or argument too closely, to play
down its importance or impugn its relevance, to contort themselves explaining it
away. And, since people often mistake the impressively obscure for the profound,
both, but especially the fake reasoner, are motivated to obfuscate.

The genuine inquirer wants to get to the truth of the matter that concerns him,
whether or not that truth comports with what he believed at the outset of his
investigation, and whether or not his acknowledgement of that truth is likely to get
him tenure, or to make him rich, famous, or popular. So he is motivated to seek
out and assess the worth of evidence and arguments thoroughly and impartially.
This doesn't just mean that he will be hard-working; it is a matter, rather, of
willingness to re-think, to re-appraise, to spend as long as it takes on the detail
that might be fatal, to give as much thought to the last one percent as to the rest.
The genuine inquirer will be ready to acknowledge, to himself as well as others,
where his evidence and arguments seem shakiest, and his articulation of problem
or solution vaguest. He will be willing to go with the evidence even to unpopular
conclusions, and to welcome someone else's having found the truth he was
seeking. And, far from having a motive to obfuscate, he will try to see and explain
things as clearly as he can.

This is not to deny that sham or fake reasoners may hit upon the truth, and, when
they do, may come up with good evidence and arguments. Commitment to a
cause, desire for reputation, are powerfully motivating forces which may prompt
energetic intellectual effort. But the intelligence and ingenuity that will help a
genuine inquirer to figure things out, will help a sham or fake inquirer to suppress
unfavorable evidence or awkward arguments more effectively, or to devise more
impressively obscure formulations.

Nor is this to deny that genuine, disinterested inquirers may come to false
conclusions or be led astray by misleading evidence or arguments. But an honest
inquirer will not suppress unfavorable evidence or awkward arguments, nor
disguise his failure with affected obscurity; so, even when he fails, he will not
impede others' efforts.

Of course, real human beings do not conform neatly to the three types I have
distinguished; their motives are generally pretty mixed, and they are capable of
many degrees and kinds of self-deception. A good environment for intellectual
work will encourage genuine inquiry and discourage the sham and the fake; and
will enable mutual scrutiny among workers in a field, so that the contributions to
knowledge that sham and fake reasoners sometimes make despite their dubious
motivation get sifted from the dross. Honest scrutiny is best; but scrutiny even by
other sham or fake reasoners with different axes to grind may be effective as a
way of exposing error, confusion, and obfuscation. A bad environment will
encourage sham and fake inquiry, and/or impede mutual scrutiny.'


Hope this helps.

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Date: Fri, Feb 23, 2001 at 13:48:25 (GMT)
From: JohnT
Email: None
To: CD
Subject: good science
Message:
So what are you saying Chris? You can write good and logical computer programs, but you cannot recognise a bad yoga teacher, or good science?

Try this.

WhadUthink?

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Date: Fri, Feb 23, 2001 at 16:32:09 (GMT)
From: Sandy
Email: None
To: JohnT
Subject: weird science
Message:
Dear JohnT,

One thing on this post I found puzzling is:

On a previous thread, there is a discourse given by Maharaji on how when one is 'at home', one can kick shoes off, let it all hang out, not worry about the tie or the hair, really be 'at home'...

Now on this thread, Maharaji talks about cleaning up for a special visitor, who is really there all the time, who is really both Host and Guest...

So if the Breath is always Here and we need to clean up for it, then we can't really kick off our shoes and let it all hang out ever...unless that is, if your God is cool with that. Mine is.

I think the only thing that needs to be 'straightened up' all the time is the motive of our hearts to be straight with life, ourselves and all other people.

Sandy

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Date: Fri, Feb 23, 2001 at 18:55:42 (GMT)
From: cq
Email: None
To: Sandy
Subject: EV published both those excerpts in the last week
Message:
More appear daily.

Here's today's, if you can stomach it:

Edited excerpt, Maharaji in Kuala Lumpur, 17th October 2000:

'Do you need a Master? Yes, you need a Master.
And more than that - more than that - you
need to listen to the Master, to what he is
saying. Take each step carefully, deliberately.
Don't walk too fast. Don't walk too slow. Don't
forget to rest, but don't forget to resume this
journey. Both are important. Know that under
no circumstances can you afford to get lost.
Getting lost is not an option, my friends.
Drowning in the sea of illusion is not an option.
Being confused in this life is not an option. Drowning in the sea of
sorrow is not an option. Not acceptable. It's not a happening
thing.'

.
.
.
What kind of 'master' says this? - that 'being confused in this life is not an option ... not acceptable'.

No kind of master. Not even a therapist. Or a counsellor.

Only a bully and/or a hypocrite would.

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Date: Thurs, Feb 22, 2001 at 17:49:22 (GMT)
From: Joe
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: So, what happened to the image?
Message:
Down below, there is a thread about what people expected to happen when Maharaji brought knowledge to the people of the world.

One group, like me, bought into Maharaji's 'Divine City' idea, and that peace would be brought to the world, and some kind of utopia would result. My guess is that these were the more political/social types who were attracted to this set of promises Maharaji made, but of course never delivered on.

Another group was more interested in personal, spiritual development and didn't really relate to 'peace in the world' stuff.

So, what happened to that view?

I know for me, I realized I had completely given up on the idea of a 'Divine City' or that the whole world would receive knowledge, etc., at the ashram meeting at the Kissimmee swamp in 1979. Maharaji screamed at us about what worthless pieces of shit we were, but when he mentioned that he was looking at land in Florida where we all could live, I completely freaked. The idea of living with a bunch of premies in rural Florida, like the never-ending-hell of that Kissimmee festival, made me feel physically ill, especially when I saw other premies at that meeting getting into the idea and oooing and ahhing at the prospect. I was community coordinator in Miami at the time, and premies were not loving brothers and sisters to me, they were BIG PAINS IN THE ASS and BIG PROBLEMS.

Miami was overrun with bongo premies, many of them illegal aliens, some of them living on the streets, quite a few drug addicts and mentally ill, and I was always having to deal with them. I loved my premie friends, but I basically accepted Satre's statement that 'hell is other people' or I guess 'hell is other premies.' So, I was planning at that time a plan to avoid ever going to live in some permanent swamp without hot water and flush toilets, and with lots of dirty, disgusting premies. My, how things changed.

So, after that, I kind of adopted Gregg, JHB and Way's idea that it might be really good if a relatively small number of people received knowledge, and we remained a relatively small group. As small as possible. Not only would there be more room at the lotus feet, coordinators like me would have fewer nutty premies to deal with.

So, I started to focus more things like they did, on my 'own' spiritual development. Within a couple of years, though, that process resulted in the conclusion that I was no only NOT progressing in any spritual sense, but knowledge in fact didn't work, I was miserable, frustrated, and found Maharaji, and everything about him from his disgusting appearance, his squeaky, rasping voice, and his obvious material greed, repulsive. Although I still had the programming that these perceptions were all my own fault, I was so sick of it I left anyway, like Katie said, willing to accept possible insanity over the certain insanity that would result if I remained.

So, when did you guys give up on the Divine City?

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Date: Thurs, Feb 22, 2001 at 22:54:55 (GMT)
From: Connie
Email: Joe
To: Joe
Subject: So, what happened to the image?
Message:
I posted this below, but with nt after the heading by mistake, so don't know if anyone read it.

The question you asked was good Joe, thanks.
It asked me look at myself and what my expectations and experience were back then.

By doing this, I saw that this (however crazy) also contributed to my core belief about knowledge and Maharaji, and I have carried this with me all through the years, no matter how much the words and outward appearance changed.
Many of the people still involved are from that same era.

The responses from all the contributors to the thread suggest that most related to what each other said. I remember Maharaji saying quite a few times that the reason people laugh at jokes is because there is an element of truth in them.

It also made me aware of the disappointment and death of hope that I had hidden for a long, long time, that something 'magical' did not happen from such potential.

The view back then, though whacky, roared potential and excitement. It was so outwardly expansive, encompassing the human race, now 30 years later the view is one of inward implosion, and sadly no one really knowing how to reach just one human being.

I find it telling that here you can laugh (mostly at yourself) whereas within Elan Vital you can't. If you spoke like that you'd be looked at like you had suddenly grown two heads and uttered the worst obscenities possible, jepordizing your chance to be approved for a training to be able to do anything. People would subtley move away from you. I do not consider that 'enjoyable'.

What was enjoyable was seeing another domino effect take place within me right before my eyes....ahhh freeing and exciting again! I love it.

C

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Date: Thurs, Feb 22, 2001 at 18:51:07 (GMT)
From: Postie
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: Glad you asked Joe
Message:
I woke up today mulling over those outrageous tofu and earthshoe filled images from your 'Imagination' thread.

I remembered that the big dream of a Divine City had been put forth by Bal Bhagwan Ji pre-Millenium. I remember hearing BBJ speak in DC Spring 73 and the main thrust of his talk was the Divine City. There was a notable architect who was BBJ's point man (anyone remember his name) who spoke about what the city would be like.

Millenium was meant to be merely a grand showcase for the Divine City and a media event to alert the masses the Lord was here. 'Millenium 73 - A Thousand Years of Peace for Those Who Want Peace.' Well, looking back, I think it was at that Astroflop that I realized the Divine City concept would never happen. I mean we were sleeping in a Coke plant for heaven's sake. Later, living in Denver with several thousand people living in either ashrams or premie houses, Rainbow Grocery, the school, the laundromat, the construction companies, medical centers.... and so on, well, that was a divine city wasn't it? So my image of that city got smudged and revised to a city within a city. Eventually, in 1976 the idea was for all the IHQ folk to live in apartments - a sort of secular cloister - more smudges on the vision - a Divine Condo Complex. After a brief stint at COLL in San Antonio just before it folded I realized the idea of a huge group of premies living together was hopeless.

After Milenium, that architect came to IHQ in Denver with a whole raft of 'professional' creative types that were going to do the design work on all aspects of the Divine City. There were cloistered meetings of the Divine International Design Center or something as pretentious, logos were designed and biz cards printed. But, as soon as the money ran out and dream died, they flew back to their ivory towers never to be seen again.

One of my regrets was not rescuing the incredible architectural renderings and plans for the Divince City complete with a multi-entranced temple of Knowledge. It had a door for each of the major world religions. These were destroyed during the 1976 purge along with other gorgeous original artwork and posters from the 'early days'.

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Date: Fri, Feb 23, 2001 at 01:56:34 (GMT)
From: Babs
Email: ralphie@ralphiescafe.com
To: Postie
Subject: That premie architect
Message:
His name was Larry Bernstein. He wrote me an encouraging and compassionate letter when I was still living in the Houston ashram and toying with the idea of returning to architecture school. (I never did go back, but I DID move to COLL, which was the closest thing to a Divine City the premies ever produced...)
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Date: Sat, Feb 24, 2001 at 23:03:05 (GMT)
From: Elaine
Email: None
To: Babs
Subject: That premie architect
Message:
Sorry I missed out on this conversation ---knew Larry, well.
Almost too well.
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Date: Fri, Feb 23, 2001 at 06:08:01 (GMT)
From: Francesca
Email: None
To: Babs
Subject: Don't know where he ended up ...
Message:
but he lived with us renegades from Bhole Ji's band in 74-75. His brother was Joan Baez's lawyer, and that connection almost got me a recording contract with Warner Bros. records around 1976. But the whole thing fizzled because I could not write what the publisher's road man (the guy who pitched songs to the radio market) believed was a hit song. Now mind you, this was right smack dab in the middle of Disco, although established artists in other genres were hanging in there.

Later on I really was floored when Maharaji gave a satsang and talked about that song that you couldn't sell to Warner Bros. Woooooooo.

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Date: Fri, Feb 23, 2001 at 05:55:54 (GMT)
From: Joe
Email: None
To: Babs
Subject: COLL
Message:
Babs, I have to agree with you about COLL. I think because it was off in San Antonio, in the middle of premie-nowhere, there was very little pretense, and lots of great people. Of course, it was short-lived. I have to say, it was about the best time I remember in the cult, but it was only about a year and a half for me.

I had a great job as a zoo keeper at the San Antonio Zoo. I took care of birds, although one time I almost got killed by an ostrich.

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Date: Fri, Feb 23, 2001 at 15:12:28 (GMT)
From: Babs
Email: ralphie@ralphiescafe.com
To: Joe
Subject: COLL
Message:
I always picture you in khaki...

Received e-mail from Steve Droullard recently. Remember him? He was the director of COLL before Mark Lerner. Seems to still be a good-hearted yet practical guy, unlike many of us who were just good-hearted.

I'm hoping to update my 'Journey' soon to include the COLL years, but it will be quite a challenge to explain how magical a place it was despite the DLM connection. I mean, yes, we sang Arti but damn we had fun!

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Date: Fri, Feb 23, 2001 at 02:00:42 (GMT)
From: Postie
Email: None
To: Babs
Subject: That premie architect - thanks Babs
Message:
See what you missed leaving IHQ pre-Millenium? When those uber-designers left town I knew the whole build-up bubble had burst.
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Date: Thurs, Feb 22, 2001 at 23:11:01 (GMT)
From: Joe
Email: None
To: Postie
Subject: Postie, Hmmmm.
Message:
I think I may have figured out who you are, or perhaps I'm wrong, but based on what you've said, and when you were at COLL, during the same time I was there, I think I'm right.

Anyhow, anonymity is your choice, but if you are who I think you are, I'm so glad you're here, and although I didn't know you well, you always seemed like a very nice person to me, despite your somewhat exhaulted status. Welcome.

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Date: Fri, Feb 23, 2001 at 00:19:06 (GMT)
From: Postie
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: Postie, Hmmmm.
Message:
I'm probably not who you are thinking of - although you did say I seemed like a very nice person and that much is true. :>)

I'm going to guess you are thinking of L.L. and that's not me. Anonymity is still my preference so I'll connect with you off the air.

Post-COLL

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Date: Fri, Feb 23, 2001 at 00:26:54 (GMT)
From: Joe
Email: Joger02@aol.com
To: Postie
Subject: Postie, Hmmmm.
Message:
Postie

Sure, actually, the person I was thinking of was S.W., but on second thought, I don't think that could be you, because I just noted when you received knowledge.

Sorry. I really want to respect anonymity here, so no problem.

Joe

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Date: Thurs, Feb 22, 2001 at 19:11:15 (GMT)
From: Postie
Email: None
To: Postie
Subject: Postie - See Bal Bhagwan Ji's plans now!
Message:
At his Manav Dharam website, there is a picture of the gigantic temple that Bubblegumji is now planning. It is really impressive, reminds me of Hitler's architectural plans for Berlin. Have you ever seen those?
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Date: Thurs, Feb 22, 2001 at 19:12:58 (GMT)
From: Way
Email: None
To: Postie
Subject: oops - above post to Postie is from Way (nt)
Message:
nt
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Date: Thurs, Feb 22, 2001 at 19:27:59 (GMT)
From: Postie
Email: None
To: Way
Subject: Prem Nagar is looking spiffy these days
Message:
http://www.manavdharam.org/pna/furtherinfo.html

That's the link to the temple Way spoke of. Those apartment buildings are impressive - a real divine city. Interesting how BBJ is basically following the dream Shr Hans set forth - a family meditation bhakti ju-ju religion. For the peasants it must be heavenly.

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Date: Fri, Feb 23, 2001 at 05:29:30 (GMT)
From: Brian Smith
Email: None
To: Postie
Subject: Prem Nagar is looking spiffy/ I going to go back
Message:
next year, I am planning a trip right now , sent for info on accomadations and rates to stay at Prem Nagar and I think it will a another step in the healing process for me.

I am not just going to spend all of my time at the ashram, just a day or so. This time I am going to see India and enjoy the rich culture and sights that I missed out on last time (1972).

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Date: Sat, Feb 24, 2001 at 00:41:20 (GMT)
From: Bin Liner
Email: None
To: Brian Smith
Subject: You're joking ?..... hard to tell ,
Message:
Why go there ?

If you must , don't forget to pack the spade & lota .

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Date: Sat, Feb 24, 2001 at 04:32:06 (GMT)
From: Brian S
Email: None
To: Bin Liner
Subject: You're joking ?..... hard to tell , No joke
Message:
I really am going to take a trip to India next year the plans are already in the works. As a side trip I thought that I might go back to the old stomping grounds it will be interesting to see Hardwar and Prem Nagar with a whole new perspective.

In 1972 I really enjoyed India, the food, the people, the culture and the beautiful and exotic architecture. But I feel that I missed many of the sights and sounds from before by being hustled around by the cult and I really would like to experience India on my own terms this time.

Would you or anyone else like to go? The more the Merrier, if enough interest is generated we can qualify for better rates.

What do you say? wouldn't it be a gas to crash the ashram with a band of ex's.

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Date: Sun, Feb 25, 2001 at 02:47:40 (GMT)
From: Bin Liner
Email: None
To: Brian S
Subject: Have a good time , thanks for the invite (nt)
Message:
nt
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Date: Sun, Feb 25, 2001 at 02:09:58 (GMT)
From: Katie
Email: None
To: Brian S
Subject: Going to London - partially for the same reason
Message:
Hi Brian -
I went to London for Guru Puja in 1973. I didn't see a damn thing except the premie campsite and the inside of the Alexandra Palace. I really would like to go back to see what is REALLY there - so I do understand. Original Brian and I also have several ex-premie friends there, so that's another motive.

The idea of going to India with a bunch of exes is tempting, but I want to do the European trip (also going to Paris to see J-M in his native habitat) for sure.

Take care -
Katie

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Date: Thurs, Feb 22, 2001 at 18:30:08 (GMT)
From: Way
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: Community of SatChitAnanda
Message:
Before I received Knowledge, I visited a cooperative community in Arkansas called East Wind. A utopia attempt. They made hammocks and peanut butter to sell and swam nude in the river. I'm not sure what their unifying philosophy was.

I assumed that Maharaji's ashrams would evolve into a utopian place where the true devotees could be with their guru. The best example I know of is the Ananda Community in Northern California. They were going strong in the 70's and 80's. Unforunately for those guys, their guru is a fraud and has resigned in disgrace. Jim and Tammy Faye had a pretty good place going. What was the name of that?

What's the point of having a guru if you can't be with him, the way that Yogananda had Sri Yukteswar? But Maharaji didn't seem interested in having his 'inner circle' be very wide. I left the ashram, due to illness, just before the ashrams closed. The closing of the ashrams spelled doom for any real community. They should have been replaced with community centers. Maybe they were (I was really out of circulation for those years).

Mr. Rawat is a pretty lousy cult leader, actually. Here's my advice for him: You have to have community. Strong, local communities with the premies all tangled up in codependent bonds of every sort, with a community center, a building where all their efforts can be focused. And then,in each country, you have to have the idealized-heaven-on-earth-spot-of-land where all the premies feel connected and blissful, so they can attribute their normal vacation relaxation to your divine presence.

Watching your own televised guru in your own living room is not where it's at! Borrrrring! And Amaroo is too out of the way, for anybody who's not living down under. And besides, it's too late now. Rawat has lost tons and tons of talent and other resources from all of us who have left him. If he had been smart, which he isn't, he would have harnessed those resources instead of abusing and squandering them. The only premies he has got left are weaklings who can't distinquish between the truth and the ugliest lie imaginable.

I think I'll do a search for East Wind and see what those guys are up to.

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Date: Thurs, Feb 22, 2001 at 20:02:14 (GMT)
From: Gregg
Email: None
To: Way
Subject: Maharaj Ji, the half-assed guru
Message:
Way said:

'Mr. Rawat is a pretty lousy cult leader, actually. Here's my advice for him: You have to have community. Strong, local communities with the premies all tangled up in codependent bonds of every sort, with a community center, a building where all their efforts can be focused.'

That's true, Way, and I was just ruminating along those lines yesterday as I drove past the old community center in Denver. (The one around Evans and Broadway - and around 1977, for those of you following along at home.)

I recalled how a few lucky premies got to tack down a red carpet to the back entrance to the satsang hall, since M was going to be in town soon and we hoped he would stop by.

(I was probably doing 'childcare service' in the basement, showing the kiddies that old-timey cartoon with those smiling creatures bottling sunlight and catapaulting the bottles...)

Where was I. Oh yeah. No, GMJ never dropped by, of course.

But I was thinking yesterday: 'Jeez, how easy it would have been for him to drive over from his house of Dahlia St. (10-15 minutes away) and sit in his special chair, smile, talk, wave goodbye'

I mean, just for selfish reasons alone...a few gestures like that would drive local premies wild, help him consolidate his position, keep a few premies in the fold. It's not like he'd actually have to wade into the crowd and shake hands or anything.

I dunno, looking back on it, it seems kinda weird, how little effort he really put into it.

And I don't think distancing himself from his flock for the pedestal effect was part of his strategy, either. Making the occasional surprise appearence at a big community center wouldn't exactly make him a chum.

No, I just think he was lazy. Or too drunk to drive.

By the way, last time I checked, about ten years ago, the center had become a charismatic fundamentalist Hispanic church. Can I get a Jai Satchitanand anyone!?

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Date: Sat, Feb 24, 2001 at 05:51:18 (GMT)
From: Helen
Email: None
To: Gregg/Way
Subject: gregg/Way, etal
Message:
Fascinating thread . Really enjoying it. Thanks
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Date: Thurs, Feb 22, 2001 at 14:14:51 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: More ELK droppings
Message:

Free choice

I have voluntarily
waved a white flag
before the forces of the heart,
This has freed me
from the solitary cell
of my mind.
Before my surrender,
I couldn't escape
But now I have free choice.
Both ways are open to me
I can withdraw or advance
anytime I like.

Stojan Svet
Postojna, Slovenia

*****************************************************************

Every new day

Every morning when I wake up, I am amazed that, 'Yes, I'm still existing and I'm still Darryl.' This energy moving through us; this consciousness, this life is always the same.

So every new morning, I rededicate my self to being a listener and a feeler; To let as much of Darryl as I can just stay out of the way. Then I can recognize those wonderful moments of clarity of mine.

But as the day goes on; all those things that separate me from Knowledge; those things that grab my attention away from Knowledge seem to happen more and more. So more and more of my dedication is just set to the side until a moment of remembrance comes.

Some days I feel I could have done better; but those opportunities are gone. There is no holding on to past moments. So this moment I rededicate myself, I recommit my self to feeling joy.

Daryl Wilson
Water Valley, MS, USA

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Date: Sat, Feb 24, 2001 at 00:46:20 (GMT)
From: moldy warp
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Darryl's 'new day'
Message:
I'm confused.So Darryl is Darryl when he wakes up each morning. And then he (not Darryl now) gets as much of Darryl 'out of the way'as 'he'can sothat 'he' (still. presumably not Darryl) can have 'wonderfull moments of clarity'(Pardon????) that are 'his'... but presumably not Darryl's, who,remember is supposed to be 'out of the way' (where, one wonders???)Then nasty 'things' grab 'his'attention (Darryl's attention???)etc etc. Oh God - and to think this all sounds horribly familiar!
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Date: Thurs, Feb 22, 2001 at 14:18:45 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Ooooops! Forgot a good one
Message:

On being me

Janice Wilson: From Baldwinsville, New York


I am realizing how much I truly want to enjoy this gift that Maharaji, Knowledge and life bring to my life.

When I become too complicated, I speedily want to do whatever it takes to get back to the real me, my heart, this connection, this feeling, where I am one whole sweet, happy being. To be centered in my heart seems to be as necessary as food and water. In fact without true joy, what is the point of living life anyway? We were all born with a happy heart and more than anything need to keep it. And at least for me the only solution when I stray is to come home again, inside.

But as well as being thirsty, I know I need to be patient and let 'the patient effort of the heart' come through for me. So sweetly. I'm learning, what a gift it is to have this lifetime with the master and Knowledge to learn from..

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Date: Thurs, Feb 22, 2001 at 19:09:44 (GMT)
From: cq
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Predictable carbon-copy-cat mush
Message:
in fact, a computer program could be written that would churn out more interesting parroting of Prem Pal's putrid pretend-philosophy.

In fact it has.

I'll give examples tomorrow (the program's at home on my Mac).

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Date: Sat, Feb 24, 2001 at 00:58:39 (GMT)
From: moldy warp
Email: None
To: cq
Subject: Predictable carbon-copy-cat mush
Message:
Looking forward to your computer programme's satsang! These people sound mentally ill - Darryl- incipient schizophrenia. The other two -clinically depressed!
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Date: Fri, Feb 23, 2001 at 06:18:16 (GMT)
From: CW
Email: None
To: cq
Subject: Easy with the Cat references CQ.
Message:
I have some pride.Mush is a term used on Canadian dogs to make them run faster.Cat's dont run and they dont hide - I love watching Jim's blood pressure rise!Mush Jim! Mush........
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Date: Fri, Feb 23, 2001 at 16:40:35 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: CW
Subject: What a joke YOU are!
Message:
'Cat's don't hide'

Who are you, little frightened pussycat? Won't tell us your real name? Ah, isn't that cute!

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Date: Thurs, Feb 22, 2001 at 18:11:16 (GMT)
From: Francesca
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Seems like the programming has worked well
Message:
to keep the premies into the dualistic thinking of the real peaceful blissful me v the 'false' me, fighting the world, fighting our own minds. I remember there was something in the Hans Yog Prakash to the effect that maya casts a net of relatives over you and guru sets you free. The hallmarks of a cult are that the core philosophies stress some sort of isolation or disengagement with the stuff of a normal daily life, with essentially, what is -- a real solidification of 'self' and 'other' to the point of calcification. Only the other cult people can understand this 'being in the world but not of it.' It's the secret smile they share. Pretty soon it's harder to really deeply relate to anyone who isn't in the cult, or at least doesn't buy the core philosophies. The only place in the 'world' that's comfortable is 'that space.' Whatever that is!!!

No matter what justification M's defenders bring forth, the EV poetry is the tale of the tape -- i.e. the measure of the level of delusion and dissonance that seems prevalent amongst M's devoted followers.

I'm more at peace with the philosophy that it's actually all one and that there is really no battle but to stay awake and let it all be. For example, one of the ultimate views in Buddhism is that nirvana and samsara (i.e. 'the world') are one taste when you've reached any point of realization. So if M had reached any point of realization, I believe he wouldn't have his students fighting with themselves on such a gross mundane level of existence that will always be so. We will always eat, poop, live, love and laugh. We are not going to get rid of our minds or our hearts, as long as there is a 'we' that is perceived by a 'self.' All I can say ultimately, even to myself when I'm pissy, is 'deal with it!'

Cheers and thanks Jim,

Francesca

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Date: Thurs, Feb 22, 2001 at 13:25:20 (GMT)
From: JTF
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: rawat in Brussels-12/'89
Message:
In this excerpt, he speaks about the human being in general. However, it could easily describe the plight of a cult member. You decide. N.B.-He was 32 at the time, therfore, an adult.
________________________________________________________________
'We laugh at the donkey who goes around the well all day long. Poor little donkey, he's blindfolded. Yet, we human beings blindfold ourselves. And somehow in this game we have painted a whole picture inside the blindfold, and we look at it as we walk and walk. And what a surprise to have your blindfold removed and you're exactly in the same place you started from. Nothing has changed. What a surprise. You mean I haven't been any where?
What happened?'
_________________________________________________________________

Personally, I think he stole this from FIRESIGN THEATRE......'Oh, how can you be in two places at once, when you're not anywhere at alllllllllll'

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Date: Fri, Feb 23, 2001 at 06:58:42 (GMT)
From: CD
Email: None
To: JTF
Subject: sources
Message:
>Personally, I think he stole this from FIRESIGN THEATRE

Ever hear these line from the Kinks:

'Here's your reward for working so hard
Gone are the lavatories in the back yard
You can go outside and polish your car
Or sit by the fire in your Shan Gri La'

'I want to be like superman'
'I want to fly but I can't even swim'

'Well he gets up in the morning
And he goes to work at nine
And he comes back home at five thirty
Gets the same train every time'

What is important in this life?

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Date: Fri, Feb 23, 2001 at 11:47:25 (GMT)
From: Jethro
Email: None
To: CD
Subject: The answer is
Message:
CD 'What is important in this life? '

Stealing, lying, revisionism, and of course protecting peadophilles. Just like your master does.

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Date: Thurs, Feb 22, 2001 at 12:54:45 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: Hmm...........................
Message:

'The mind says this is stupid'

JAN WONG examines the rising number of Canadians drawn
to FALUN GONG, the spiritual movement that prompted
Jean Chrétien to scold his Chinese hosts this week. A cult?
Perhaps not, but why do its true believers feel that a wheel
in the abdomen means they can stop going go the doctor?
JAN WONG

Saturday, February 17, 2001

Joel Chipkar has a sleek silver Toyota 4-Runner and a vanity licence plate (J CHIP). The real-estate broker also accessorizes the lapel of his tailored overcoat with a blue and yellow plastic button: 'Falun Dafa; Truthfulness, Compassion, Forbearance; http://www.falundafa.org.'

Catch him by cellphone in his SUV on Monday morning, and he's not headed for another lucrative deal. 'I'm on my way to the Chinese consulate,' Mr. Chipkar says.

Since October -- rain, shine, sleet or snow -- his fellow followers of falun dafa, better known as falun gong, have organized a daily demonstration at the Chinese consulate in Toronto. Mr. Chipkar, 33, who volunteers as a spokesman, says he is going in case reporters show up.

China condemns the movement as 'an evil cult.' Yet in Canada, the self-improvement philosophy is attracting people like Mr. Chipkar. Adherents claim that practising falun gong produces a 'Buddhist law wheel' that rotates in their lower abdomens, curing them of disease and easing the aging process.

'When you start to do the exercises, the mind says, 'This is stupid. I have so many things to do,' ' says Mr. Chipkar, whose mother, Connie, initially drew him into falun gong.

But he adds that he has been completely transformed into a kinder, gentler human being. 'The biggest changes I've seen are my relationships. They're more fulfilled.'

Although his two brothers, who work with him in the family real-estate business in Mississauga, aren't believers, 'they've stopped making fun of us,' Mr. Chipkar says. They even help him to distribute leaflets and tolerate the occasional group meditation session in the office.

In Ottawa, falun gong's gentle exercise routines are part of the wellness program at ailing high-tech giant Nortel Networks.

Devotees, who call themselves 'practitioners,' routinely hold seminars in Chapters outlets from Vancouver to Sudbury, Ont. The chain sells several books by Li Hongzhi, the movement's shadowy founder, shelved under 'New Age and Occult.'

In Canada, adherents have lobbied politicians for support, with astonishing success. Everyone from Alberta Premier Ralph Klein to Toronto Mayor Mel Lastman has responded with effusive letters of encouragement. In Beijing and Shanghai this week, Prime Minister Jean Chrétien carefully raised the issue of human rights, mentioning in particular China's suppression of falun gong.

The group claims 70 million to 100 million followers in 40 countries, mostly in China. Beijing puts the number of Chinese adherents at two million.

Guesstimates of Canadian devotees hover at several thousand, a number impossible to verify. Still, more than 60 cities across the country now proclaim a falun gong day. Last August, when the first commemorative week was declared, Governor-General Adrienne Clarkson sent congratulations, calling followers people who 'wish to live in symbiosis with the universe and experience inner peace.'

Beijing disagrees. It says 1,600 devotees in China have died because they failed to seek medical treatment. And it accuses Mr. Li of duping people with promises of salvation. It fears falun gong both as an opiate of the masses and as a rival organization to the Chinese Communist Party.

In July, 1999, Beijing issued an arrest warrant through Interpol for Mr. Li, 49, a one-time granary clerk and former People's Liberation Army soldier. The agency rejected the request, but since then he has declined all requests for interviews.

Mr. Li lives in United States, where he has permanent-resident status. His U.S. spokeswoman, Gail Rachlin, will say only that he 'lives in the New York area.' Chubby-cheeked with a penchant for Western-styled suits, he sometimes surfaces at 'experience-sharing conferences.'

Mr. Li apparently survives on royalties from the sale of millions of his books, videotapes and recordings.

Meanwhile, China has arrested thousands of his followers. At least 100 have died in police custody, according to human-rights groups. Despite the repression, the authorities continue to face the broadest popular resistance they have seen in a decade.

Adherents deny any political agenda. They also deny they are a cult. 'If it was a cult, I wouldn't join it,' an appalled Mr. Chipkar says.

But if zealous devotion is one definition of a cult, falun gong fits the bill. In the propaganda war with China, its supporters bend over backward to accommodate the Western media. When a reporter was invited to a dinner for about 25 followers one Saturday night and couldn't make it, the event was immediately switched to Sunday. Everyone still showed up.

Many members spend every spare moment on falun gong. Take Mr. Chipkar, who is single. In addition to drop-ins at Chinese consulate demos, he attends weekly study groups. He also leads exercise sessions Wednesday nights and Sunday mornings at Mississauga City Hall. In the past two years, he has attended conferences in Vancouver, Taiwan, Geneva, New York, Chicago and Michigan. Tomorrow, he is flying to Los Angeles for yet another one. Next month, it's back to Geneva.

Susan Mitchell, a former voice-over announcer at TVOntario, devotes a predawn hour to falun gong daily. Swathed in long underwear, she sits outdoors on a cushion in the frozen darkness near a downtown fast-food court.

During her lunch hour, she spreads the message among intrigued co-workers at Ontario's Education Quality and Accountability Office, which administers province-wide school testing. On Wednesday nights, she joins a falun gong group in a friend's home. Saturdays, she takes a bus 100 kilometres to Guelph to lead an exercise session. Sundays, she joins an 8 a.m. session in a public park.

Ms. Mitchell, 57, credits falun gong with curing everything that ails her: kidney stones, breast cancer, vaginal infections, a herniated disc, constipation, fallen arches. 'So I saved the country quite a lot of money,' she says with a placid smile.

Although followers compare Mr. Li's teachings to those of Jesus Christ and Mahatma Gandhi, they maintain that falun gong is not a religion. They note the lack of hierarchy, membership lists and temples.

Instead, falun gong is all about self-improvement, they say. Everything is free, except the books and tapes. And even those can be downloaded freely from the Internet. Still, many adherents buy a dozen or more books to pass on to friends.

But is falun gong as benign as it claims? In exile, Mr. Li has been speaking in increasingly apocalyptic terms. He has said the crackdown in China is leading to the 'Consummation,' in which all his disciples will 'leave' and 'all bad people will be destroyed by gods.'

On New Year's Day, he ratcheted up the level of civil disobedience. In a statement entitled 'Beyond Forbearance' and posted on the group's Web site, he declared that it was 'consistent with the principles of falun dafa' to expose 'crimes committed by the Communist regime during this crackdown.'

Three weeks later, on the eve of the lunar Chinese New Year, five people went to Tiananmen Square, assumed the lotus position, doused themselves with gasoline from plastic Sprite bottles and set themselves ablaze. It left one woman dead and four people severely burned, including her 12-year-old daughter. Two others were stopped from igniting themselves at the last moment.

His supporters say Mr. Li does not condone suicide, so the casualties were not true believers.

'They couldn't be,' Ms. Mitchell says flatly. 'The teaching absolutely prohibits killing to the point where if a mosquito bites you, you watch that mosquito bite you. You don't smack it.' (Eating meat is not prohibited but smoking and drinking are discouraged.)

Yesterday, the China state media said a 25-year-old shoe shiner obsessed by the teachings of falun gong committed suicide by setting himself on fire on a street in western Beijing.

Ms. Mitchell spent 19 years as a celibate follower of an Indian guru named Sri Chinmoy and used to make monthly pilgrimages to Long Island, N.Y., to visit him and buy his books of poetry. She also dutifully forked over her share of the movement's rent and phone bills, plus $500 to $700 each time the guru made an appearance at Toronto's Metro Convention Centre.

Asked what she would do if 'Teacher Li' suddenly asked his followers to hand over all their money, Ms. Mitchell considers the question. 'I don't think he'd do that. I wouldn't just go along with everything.'

And what if 'Teacher Li' called for a mass suicide? Would she obey, like the cult members who dutifully drank cyanide-laced Kool-Aid at Jonestown? 'No,' Ms. Mitchell says firmly. 'I wouldn't do that.'

Falun gong began quietly enough in 1992, as Mr. Li travelled the country lecturing to small groups. At first, his was merely one of hundreds of varieties of qigong (pronounced chee goong), Taoist exercise regimens that can veer off into parlour tricks such as sword swallowing.

Two years later, Mr. Li compiled his lectures in a book and moved to the United States.

In his absence, falun gong grew rapidly. Its promise of salvation struck a chord with many Chinese adrift in a post-Mao spiritual vacuum. Disillusioned by rampant materialism, double-digit unemployment and the high cost of medical care, adherents included peasants, workers, scientists, government officials, police officers, even Communist Party members. Alarmed, China banned Mr. Li's books in 1996.

In 1999, a falun gong protest struck at the very heart of Chinese political power. About 10,000 people, apparently organized by e-mail, peacefully surrounded the vermilion walls of Zhong Nan Hai, the headquarters of the Chinese Communist Party.

It was April 25, the 10th anniversary of the protests that led to the 1989 massacre at Tiananmen Square.

Mr. Li's followers continue to stream into Tiananmen Square daily to unfurl small yellow banners or practise their slow-motion breathing exercises. The never-ending protests have embarrassed the government.

Beijing, which hopes to play host to the 2008 Olympic Games, is worried about an inspection visit from the International Olympic Committee next week. If its bid is successful, it plans to hold the beach-volleyball competition in the square.

After Mr. Chipkar's morning at the Chinese consulate, he heads to North York that night to experience some inner peace. It's the weekly session held in Alice Huynh's spotless living room.

Ms. Huynh, an elementary school teacher, turns down the heat, opens a window and puts on a falun gong CD. For a full hour, in time with the hypnotic melody of a Chinese zither, the devotees alternately fold their hands in a prayerful pose, sweep them in a circle or hold them motionless in the air.

Mr. Chipkar has already removed his jacket and shoes. When he reaches Exercise No. 3, known as 'the energy exchange,' he tosses his pager on the sofa. 'This one's really good,' he whispers enthusiastically, sweeping his palms past his body like an airport security officer with a metal detector.

A few steps away, his mother goes through the identical motions.

Of the 12 who have shown up tonight, nine are white and three are ethnic Chinese. Some are lapsed Catholics, others former devotees of transcendental meditation or veterans of Tony Robbins motivational videos. Still others are high-tech nerds searching for the meaning of life.

One is a part-time bus driver from Oakville, Ont., who also coaches hockey and works as a reserve medic for the Canadian Forces. Four have parents involved in falun gong. The youngest participant is 14-year-old Kristy Hao, who is wearing a yellow polar-fleece jacket emblazoned with falun gong's Web site and mantra (Truthfulness, Compassion, Forbearance).

Ms. Huynh, who holds these sessions several times a week, serves camomile tea and Chinese sweets. Except for the sofa, the room is virtually bare. On the wall are two framed emblems, with the yin-yang symbol of Taoism and the reverse swastika of Buddhism. Between them is a portrait of Mr. Li.

Earlier in the evening, the members of the group sat in the lotus, reading aloud from a bad English translation of Turning Wheel of Buddhist Law, Mr. Li's main opus. Sample gem: 'By the time the gong reaches his xinxing level, the gong has also increased up to that level.' A perplexed observer is told that gong means cultivation energy and xinxing means moral character.

The read-a-thon ends an hour later. Everyone gossips briefly about how falun gong helped a bald man in Vancouver grow back his hair. 'We don't know if it's related,' Mr. Chipkar quickly interjects.

Falun gong sessions eerily recall political study groups of the Chinese Cultural Revolution.

Beijing should be delighted. But it isn't, for complicated reasons of history and end-of-millennium paranoia.

As every Chinese schoolchild knows, a dynasty's demise is often hastened by a peasant rebellion led by a messianic leader. In AD 18, for instance, a secret Taoist sect known as the Red Eyebrows sparked a popular uprising that ended the Han dynasty. Nearly 2,000 years later, the Taiping Rebellion, which embraced tenets of Christianity, shook the last Chinese dynasty, the Qing, to its core.

In Toronto's Chinatown last month, China's consul-general was the keynote speaker at what Mr. Chipkar calls a 'hate rally.' Zhou Xingbao accused falun gong of 'being anti-China' and 'making up lies.'

Cindy Gu and Joe Wang, a Toronto couple originally from mainland China, are part of the consulate's problem.

The couple have seen Mr. Li several times, most recently at a November conference in Ann Arbor, Mich. 'He had this righteous aura,' says Mr. Wang, 36.

Both Ms. Gu and Mr. Wang are completely devoted. 'I feel a deep level of happiness and satisfaction I cannot get from going to a party or seeing a movie,' says Ms. Gu, 34, who earns six figures as a network systems engineer for Alcatel.

Two years ago, after a friend told her about falun gong, she stayed up the entire night reading Mr. Li's main opus on the Web.

'I was sleeping,' Mr. Wang recalls. 'I probably thought she was crazy.'

But he saw how his wife became less cranky. And he became a devotee himself a few months later when he agreed to meet a friend at a falun gong conference that attracted 1,700 people at the University of Toronto. 'Everybody seemed so peaceful and happy,' he says.

Mr. Wang is a research scientist working on a cancer vaccine at Sunnybrook Hospital for Aventis, a French-German pharmaceutical company. He holds a PhD in molecular biology from the University of Ottawa and did postdoctoral work at Cornell University on cloning tomatoes. But his day job doesn't seem to clash with his appreciation of falun gong teachings, which include the 'thought capability of plants.'

Adherents claim a curiously precise 'cure rate' of '58.5 per cent' for falun gong. Ms. Mitchell, the former TVO announcer, still has a lump in her breast. But she is convinced that she is cured of cancer, despite an 1997 biopsy that confirmed she had malignant carcinoma.

She says falun gong also rid her of chronic kidney stones. Asked if she has shared the miracle cure with her urologist, she shrugs. 'I guess it really doesn't interest me what he thinks.'

As for Ms. Gu, she was basically healthy. Even so, she used to see her doctor for regular checkups. Not any more. 'There's no need,' she explains. 'I've never felt healthier before.'

She, like Mr. Chipkar, wears a button on her coat. But she goes further, pasting a sign on the rear window of her car.

'I never heard of falun gong until 1999,' she muses. 'The Chinese government pushed it to the world stage.'

Mr. Chipkar agrees. 'They're helping us,' he says as he drives off in his SUV after a three-hour session. 'But we'd rather not have that kind of help.'

Healing power?

For an in-depth look at chi kung, the traditional exercise regimen upon which falun gong is based, see the Health pages in next Tuesday's Globe and Mail.

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Date: Sat, Feb 24, 2001 at 02:48:08 (GMT)
From: Bin Liner
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Falung Gong is a cult , but ........
Message:
.... not as we know it.

Rattle that cage.

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Date: Fri, Feb 23, 2001 at 06:35:23 (GMT)
From: Mosquito's agree:
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: We love this cult!....nt
Message:
xvbn
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Date: Thurs, Feb 22, 2001 at 23:02:05 (GMT)
From: janet
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: i saw them at the whole life expo-seemed ok
Message:
they wear yellow gi's (martial-arts pajamas) when publicly practicing together for display.sort of their ceremonial robes, you'd call them. they had a booth in the body healing arts section of the whole life expo, at los angeles in october. they were in a long row of booths, alongside massage workers, reflexology workers, tuned crystal bowl resonance healers, chiropractors and the like. they did practically no talking. there were maybe 20 of them in the booth area at any given time. I stood,and watched for 20 minutes or so.most of the booth attendants were to one side, in poses of sitting or standing , going through what looked smilar to t'ai ch'i movements, but simpler. very absorbed.no speech. each one seemed completely immersed in the energy. it was palpable.teams of three or four would silently motion to an interested fairgoer, escort them to a chair, and surround them wordlessly, and begin to either chant over them, and/or pass their hands over and around the person, in seeming transfer, or redirection of their energies. very little actual physical contact was made. i detected nothing freaky or weird or suspicious in the whole business. i didnt get that offensive signal that warns me when something is fanatical, and dangerously shortsighted about some advocacy--and i found the usual share of such, as i moved thru the exhibits, to be sure.without knowing what their doctrine or book beliefs are, on the surface they present as harmless and interesting. i knew beforehand that they were under persecution in china, so i approached warily. but as far as focusing on inner energy and developing high awareness of breath, q'i,body state, tranquillity, etc, i can see how they do it, and it seems no more remarkable than yoga, or chakra study, or ritual dance. their literature may present more worrisome declarations, and i don't want to get near enough for any of it to reach out and stain me.as i went to move off, a young girl stepped forward and smiled and wordlessly offered me a leaflet. i nodded and took it to be polite. when i read it later it didnt seem to contain anything more than an inoffensive, descriptive narrative of the exercises and a simple report of the arrests in china. no loaded language or hidden agendas.i didnt talk to any of the people who sat in the chair and took one of their treatments. i assume I would have heard the usual spectrum of experiences, everything from 'i think i felt something' to the gushing 'oh it was so powerful! they cleared everything!' «plus ca Ça change, plus ca la meme chose»if i was still of the new age disafection to go shopping for something new to get into, i can see how i might go for this. plus, now it has the added attraction and secret satisfaction of knowing it's freaking out the red chinese government. so i might take it up to yank their chain, over their own superstition, for their believing it's predicting their own doom. they strike me kind of like an elehant, panicking at the sight of a mouse and dying of its own fright. the difference being, I would reach out to help the elephant.
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Date: Thurs, Feb 22, 2001 at 23:09:25 (GMT)
From: JHB
Email: None
To: janet
Subject: Definition of freaky or weird?
Message:
Janet said:-

teams of three or four would silently motion to an interested fairgoer, escort them to a chair, and surround them wordlessly, and begin to either chant over them, and/or pass their hands over and around the person, in seeming transfer, or redirection of their energies. very little actual physical contact was made. i detected nothing freaky or weird or suspicious in the whole business.

It may be innocent but it sounds pretty freaky and weird to me:-)

I'm not sure why but your description of their behaviour sounds very cult like to me.

John

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Date: Thurs, Feb 22, 2001 at 23:53:47 (GMT)
From: janet
Email: None
To: JHB
Subject: you want me to answer? or rhetorical?
Message:
i guess i would clarify that by saying that i have become hypersensitized to the presence of hype and rabid self delusion, after being taken in by it so many times in my life. this covers crushes on people i personally met, rock stars, politicians i believed in and worked for, the hippie utopia, woodstock, DLM, cystals, new age beliefs, diets, cures, causes, theories, just about anything i ever talked myself into believing and putting energy into. in the end they al disappoint. but some phenomena are more insidious than others. on a scale of zero to ten, with zero being dead and not worth looking at, and ten being totally dangerous, delusional, misrepresented, harmful, deceptive and overzealous and oversold, i would give these guys a 3 and Knowledge maybe a 7. 10's would be up in the likes of Nazi-ism, Scientology, the Communist Revolutions (soviet and chinese), the Spanish Inquisition and like that.in my scale, to be a 10, it has to have fanatical belief, mass genocide, weapons capable of global destruction, mass subjugation, mass suffering, induce terror and compliance in the general population and utter belief in a mandate from fate and all existence to proceed. and the intent of wiping out of enemies, both real and imagined, instantly, with zero tolerance permitted.which makes me ask myself, where is the US, on my scale?hm.well, we didnt kill saddam, we didnt wipe out japan in WWII...didnt bomb the soviet union or china...so maybe only a 9.99999 etc.
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Date: Thurs, Feb 22, 2001 at 05:54:25 (GMT)
From: jondon
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: 3 of the 7 Amaroo.....
Message:
....Bound premies have backed out of going to Amaroo. They said they have too much work and can't really get away. One of them confided in me that she read the fine print in the registration pamphlet and decided to bail out. Then proceeded to tell me she read the fine print on the Forum, pointed out by one of the posters. So, now yet another fence-sitter reading this site is possibly preparing to come off the fence and onto the other side. She is a long time premie, too, but in and out of practicing and going to videos. I think she has found a new boyfriend and would rather try to start a normal life based on the real world and not the world of repititve rhetoric espoused by her Perfect Master.

The other two claim that they are too busy with work. Come on....too busy to go see the perfect master? Can't you write it off as a business expense? I think that one of them would rather use his vacation time for a vacation not for a weekend episode of Survival in the Outback with a bunch of blissed out ex-hippies.

So, what are we down to now? Anth? 3, 4 people registered? Hmmmmmm. They may have to cancel due to lack of interest. Or will they allow a bunch of premies in for FREE, as SERVICE, to appease the head pubah?

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Date: Thurs, Feb 22, 2001 at 07:08:54 (GMT)
From: janet
Email: None
To: jondon
Subject: service at Amaroo isnt free, or so i read.....
Message:
i saw a sign up sheet for amaroo a couple of years ago at long beach and it said real clearly that if you wanted to go there and help, it woould be at your own expense, nothing would be provided there for you. this was in the clearing and building stage, so maybe things have changed, but thats the only relevant data i ever saw about it.
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Date: Thurs, Feb 22, 2001 at 10:19:49 (GMT)
From: Aussi Ji
Email: None
To: janet
Subject: service at Amaroo isnt free, or so i read.....
Message:
G,day Janet,
That is right,you have to make your own way out there and outside of events there is no transport unless you drive there.You have to buy your own grub too.They do however make available work implements,such as shovels etc.The dunnies(aussie for toilets)are free,or they used to be anyways.

Cheers Aussi Ji(I would'nt be seen at Amaroo for quids)

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Date: Thurs, Feb 22, 2001 at 04:40:54 (GMT)
From: la-ex
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: You too,can make 10mil/yr plus in your spare time!
Message:
I heard last year that m announced to some of the inner circle of rich guys in amaroo that he needed about 9 million dollars to run the big show last year.
I'm not sure if that was just touring, or touring plus living expenses...
(That total, last time I heard about 10 years ago, was 3million/yr.....approximately 1.5 million/yr. for touring, and 1.5 million/yr for family living expenses...)

I'm not sure if the 9 million was for both touring and living, or just touring...

Anyway, I was putting a few figures together and came up with the following simple formula for Professor Rawat's wealth building program:

1) Get 4500 people to give $1600 apiece ($400 registration, $400 camping,$800 gift)to camp out in the outback and take in 7.2 million dolars...

Not bad, for a long weekend of work...(slaves,er 'volunteers' will carry out all the grunt work and details....Plus, you get to yell at them as much as you want, and potentially cancel the whole event and pocket a million or two just for trying...)

2)Satellite sponsorship-I think that 8,000 people outside of India heard some of m's original broadcasts...

Let's say about 30% of those people become permanent sponsors and donate about $1,000/year ($75/month is OK, but they really want to see $100/month....so, an average of $85/month=$1,000/yr. per sponosr...

Take 2400 sponsors X $1,000 = 2.4 million...

3)Miscellaneous donations, gifts,food, trinkets, businesses such as amtext (probably 2-3 million/yr alone)=4 million/yr...

4)Total=7.2 + 2.4 + 4.0 = 13.6 million/yr

And this is just what we know about!

No wonder Mr. rawat is able to look for a new yacht with a heliport on it....

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Date: Thurs, Feb 22, 2001 at 11:38:50 (GMT)
From: salam
Email: None
To: la-ex
Subject: maybe, but
Message:
I don't think there will be 4500 coming. The was a post somewhere saying that satillite transmission is going to be free. Plus the airplane is going down real fast, so he can dream of his 9 million. Don't know, too much shit going around.
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Date: Wed, Feb 21, 2001 at 23:18:40 (GMT)
From: Joe
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: So, what did you imagine......
Message:
Down below there is some discussion of what we imagined would happen when Maharaji's divine plan came to fruition. What would the world be like after Maharaji brought knowledge to the whole world and everything was changed? I think many of us had images of what this would be when we became premies, and part of the reason we became premies was to be a part of, instruments for, bringing peace and love to the world.

Another facet of this what did each of us think individually, we would be like after receiving knowledge, and experiencing divine love. How would we be changed?

Here is in a nutshell what I thought:

I was most attracted to the opportunity Maharaji said he was offering to bring peace and love to the world. As I said below, I imagined this as some kind of purified, free, socialist utopia. No one would be in competition with anyone else, there would be plenty of material things to satisfy everyones' needs because people would look inside for happiness and not engage in greed and the acquisition of wealth. Also, we would love each other and cooperate in helping make the world a paradise. The kingdom of heaven on earth, in a kind of political viewpoint. That was what I thought. Oh yeah, Maharaji was also pushing the 'divine city' idea, and I thought that's were it would start out, as an example to the rest of the world about how people really could live.

Yikes!

As for me, personally, I thought I would be happy, have lots of love, be satisfied with very little, and live in a cooperative community based on trust. I never was very interested in the idea of evolving spiritually, reaching nirvana or some kind of spiritual state.

What did other people think?

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Date: Sat, Feb 24, 2001 at 03:48:03 (GMT)
From: TED Farkel
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: OK, here's what I imagined.....
Message:
Dear Mr. Joe Whalen-

OK, let's see what ole country boy TED Farkel would have imagined back in the 70's if he had the divine spark of the knowledge, and he was dreamin some sort of utopian vision of what it might all be like if we all had this here knowledge of all knowledges, that you can't get in college....

Well, I spose it woulda gone somethin like this...

I'd have a shop where I could work all day doin what I love doin (workin on transmissions)...

Every night I'd be downing 6-8 home brewed foamies and watchin videos of our Lord at the same time, with my buddies...

I could watch 'divine porn' (Mr. eDrek's boob/mala site) when those urges came up, for free, in the comfort of my own home/shop...

I could share some of my varmint stew and roadkill barbecue with travellin instructors...

I could maybe get a date with a hot premie babe once in awhile...

I could 'rock out' on some really great premie rock band like Blue Aquarius....

I could help organize a big shindig like 'Soul Rush'....

I could bullshit everybody about what I was experiencin in meditation...

I could dream all sorts of stupid things and share them with other dreamers...

Well, that's about it for now....come to think of it, I think I got everything I ever wanted...maybe the kingdom of heaven came, and I just forgot to notice it, cos of all of my 'concepts'...

TED Farkel
(BTW, if any of you babes out there wants to know what ole TED is really like, I'm pretty close to George Clooney in 'Oh brother, where art thou?)

Or maybe more like the guy who they thought turned into a horned toad...

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Date: Thurs, Feb 22, 2001 at 19:34:51 (GMT)
From: cq
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: ... what was being advertised?
Message:
M sold himself as the new messiah (without ANY doubt).

I'd been brought up in a family headed by a spititualist mum and an agnostic dad, was sent to a school where we had to go to church and learn the scriptures - what the hell do you think I imagined?

I thought this was to be the era when the Lord Himself manifested on earth.

Why else would I have given away everything I owned and joined the ashram?

In other words, my spiritual aspirations were raped.

Next time?

I don't think there'll be one.

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Date: Thurs, Feb 22, 2001 at 19:20:59 (GMT)
From: Scott T.
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: So, what did you imagine......
Message:
Joe:

I received K in 1974 and don't really remember if I ever had an image of anything in mind. I didn't see very much in the way of anything that would provide an image, other than the aborted Divine City project. I had some vague notion that people wouldn't fight anymore, and we'd have enough to eat, and we'd be able to get the autographs of the angels or something. I left the details to him. Actually, I remember thinking that we'd all eat pretty well and wouldn't have to work too hard, or be employed at anything that was boring. Oh yeah, women would be nice and not too much trouble. Low maintenance. Clearly I was brain damaged.

--Scott

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Date: Thurs, Feb 22, 2001 at 21:30:33 (GMT)
From: Ulf
Email: None
To: Scott T.
Subject: So, what did you imagine......
Message:
I got k in spring 75, i saw it as the missing link somehow
for me it was because people did not have true knowledge
of the soul,, that we all was suffering.
I saw all things that humans was doing as a lack of K

off course when people got the real knowledge everything
wouldt be in perfect harmony ..world peace , utopia,,ect.
yes i belived it all ,, very young ,(20) and wanting something else
than what my parents couldt give me ,,,

proud Working clas kid ,, i saw K as the real revolution
The revolution without guns.

I remember that when i first had satsang ,,the whole puzzle
got togheter.
I left all my friends in the country , went to the city ,
and only lived to get K

M and K was the answer the whole world was waitng for.

but that was then.

Ulf

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Date: Thurs, Feb 22, 2001 at 12:13:38 (GMT)
From: Katie
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: So, what did you imagine......
Message:
Interesting question, Joe. I really can't remember, except for some slight imaginings of how friendly the world would be once we were all united in following Maharaji. I have always had a lot of trouble visualizing the future - especially back then (couldn't think more than a month in advance.)

I know Maharaji said he would bring peace to the world, but I don't know if I really believed that - even then. I had already been through the hippie-rural-utopian vision thing, and was still sort of into that version of reality. Also, I had some big fears of apocalypse - which following M didn't help with.

I think a lot of people thought that M's world would be like a festival (event) ALL the time. The problem with that for me is that I always hated festivals because I was uncomfortable around those huge crowds of people, and because of the undercurrent of weirdness that was usually going on.

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Date: Thurs, Feb 22, 2001 at 01:10:03 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: Narnia
Message:
I wasn't quite sure what to expect but I thought it had to be at least as cool as going through a magic closet into an enchanted land where God manifested as a talking lion. After all, if the mind couldn't conceive the true beauty of knowledge, and the mind could conceive Narnia, well, then God-realization just had to be better than that.

I expected to find this magic swing inside so I could be every bit as deeply smitten by cosmic beauty as was Kabir. After all, Maharaji endorsed his spiritual romantic fancy and sometimes, when I tried, I could almost experience the same kinds of things he was talking about! Talk about proof or what, eh?

I expected the whole world to become premies. Really, either they would be premies or they'd just kind of fall off the face of the planet in some universal shake-out. Yes, we might all live in divine cities. We surely would all live in ashrams as Maharaji had said as much ('The whole world will be an ashram'). So there was no point moving out, as there would soon be nowhere to move to!

All my favorite rock stars were coming to Maharaji in droves. Why, did you hear that Jerry Garcia's heard satsang? Yeah, that's right and George Harrison's actually married to a premie! Won't be long now.

I thought that I'd be a mahatma eventually, whether I liked it or not. Yes, just like Ira, Arthur, Cathy and ..... and ...... Ira, Arthur, Cathy and Bill, I, too, would soon be lifted into that permanent state of grace, get an Indian name and everything.

I thought I'd eventually have a real full-time service thing to do in DLM. There was obviously no point in pursuing a worldly career (yech!) as every moment counted and there was absolutely no gain in identifying for even a second with your body or ego. Push a broom or be a General Secretary, it was all the same. Just service. And eventually we wouldn't have to do any service but within our holy organization, Divine Light Mission.

I thought that my meditations would get deper and deeper and deeper. That little light that I saw that I just kind of 'knew' was God? Well it was going to grow so large, so powerful so unmistakably conscious that no doubts would ever be able to settle for a second in my fickle mind. Indeed, the Knowledge was going to get so fucking incredible that I woudln't even HAVE a mind after all while, just be an open vehicle of his Grace.

I also thought that if I ever truly strayed I'd literally face a fate worse than death. A life as a manmot, a turncoat, one who'd been revealed the truth and walked away. Now THAT scared me.

I also thought that we would all live together somewhere or other. Lots and lots and lots of satsang, service and meditation and -- don't forget -- DARSHAN! Um, yummy!

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Date: Thurs, Feb 22, 2001 at 02:04:29 (GMT)
From: Connie
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Narnia plus Krishna and a lamb
Message:
Everything you said Jim was exactly how I envisioned it, deleting the musicians and adding Krishna and a lamb in some vague expansive magical place.....

You can see my state back then, but it all seemed so real. It's been so long since I looked back there.

Thanks for putting it so comprehensively and giving me a chuckle at myself.

C

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Date: Thurs, Feb 22, 2001 at 01:53:16 (GMT)
From: Bin Liner
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Me too , Narnia ,the vision of...
Message:
....truth , justice , happiness & nobility of spirit .

A great vision ,& one I cannot give up on , as I do believe against all the odds , that love conquers all .

Have you read Philip Pullman's ' Dark Materials 'trilogy ?

Deliberately anti- narnia , but very well written .

The 1st is called 'Northern Lights ' & won the Carnegie Medal.

The 3rd came out just before Christmas , but being a cheap fuck ,I'm waiting for the paperback before buying it.

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Date: Thurs, Feb 22, 2001 at 01:26:51 (GMT)
From: Joe
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: And we would eat....
Message:
Right, Jim:

Indian food, lots of Indian food. In the Divine City, everyone would sleep on foam mats, everyone would have a housemother, everyone would be vegetarian, and all the householders would live in modest homes with altars of Guru Maharaj Ji, and there would be lots of plants and wheat grass growing on a big tray in the dining room window of every modest home. Everyone would have a service so mindless that one could remember holy name 24 hours a day.

We would all shop in food coops and there would be no need for money. Everyone would just take what they needed, live communally, and everyone would be under 30, wear white, Indian-cotton shirts and the women would wear long dresses with their hair tied back. And no makeup or nylons. Everyone would smell slightly of Rocky Mountain Skin Drink and Dr Bronners, mixed with Sandlewood incense.

There would be a big fountain on the main street full of charnamarit. The 'people of the world' would clamor to get inside the city and beg for knowledge. We would all be practically worshipped and treated like celebrities by them because we had knowledge and could give them satsang so they could 'prepare' for knowledge. These people would do 'service' for us in various ways to prepare themselves and so that we would recommend them to the aspirant committee so they could get signed up for knowledge.

Maharaji would have a big palace in the middle of the city and he would occasionally arrange for each of us to go there, drink cognac, smoke dope and have sex with him (Oops, that's Malibu.)

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Date: Thurs, Feb 22, 2001 at 03:07:28 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: And everyone would thank us all the time
Message:
That's so funny, Joe. And Connie and Bin.

I also recall how grateful everyone was going to be that we'd actually taken the time to tell them about the Hamster when they still had a chance and everything. Everyone would look back to that golden moment when they'd gotten their first 'God is great but guru is greater (because he reveals God)' leaflet or answered the door to that blissful And it is Divine salesman. Bosses that gave us a hard time about filling our desks and company vehicle dashboards with pictures of Maharaji and the rest of the Holy Family would be sorry. Bosses that couldn't understand why we shut ourselves in closets over lunch hours and why we tried to stare them and everyone else at work down with eerie smiles and deep, slow breaths, would be sorry. Bosses that threatened to fire us because we wouldn't shut up talking about that fucking guru, would also be sorry. Bosses that did fire us because of all the stupid time off we kept taking, would be sorry.

Old girlfriends that never really understood the true nature of love would be sorry. Our parents that also never understood the ture nature of love would be sorry. We would be sorry -- but we would also be happy. Happy and sorry, smiles and tears, just like Kabir.

All of the prophets, seers and other people featured in And it is Divine articles, guys like Uri Geller or Black Eagle Feather or whoever, would be automatic premies. Indeed, And it is Divine would be the only magazine in print with a worldwise circulation of approximately 3 billion.

Maharaji would also tip his hand, somewhere in there and really show the world, for once and for all, who had come. This would then make all the other people who hadn't yet received Knowledge, if there were any, finally tumble at His Feet. The news shows would all become satsang and whoever the world political leaders were would all be premies. Maharaji might let them stay in office -- a bit or something -- maybe Raja Ji would be in charge of that.

Bhole Ji would ultimately manifest as something we could never quite imagine and Mata Ji .... well, I hever actually thought about her. Now a little bit later, like after Durga Ji was anointed, well I did think about her a bit. But that's different.

Food? Yes, Joe, lots and lots and lots of Indian food! And lots and lots and lots of vegetarian sandwiches and yogurt. Scrambled tofu and stir-fried tofu. Well, whatever, at least I was thin then, huh?

There would be no movies ... except, that is, King of Hearts, Brother Sun, Sister Moon and, of course, Who is Guru Maharaj Ji?. There would be no bands except premie bands and maybe, if it was true what they said about his wife, George Harrison. The only books in print (beside the Narnia series) would be Hans Yog Prakesh, the collected writings of Rumi, the poetry of Kabir and those tiny, tiny books with quotes of Guru Nanak. They would all be small print runs for the most part. The world's presses would be more than busy enough running off millions of copies of 'Who is Guru Maharaj Ji?' (the book, not the movie). You could also read 'The Wizard of Earthsea' if you really had to.

More and more meditation would produce more and more results. For example, that feeling of loneliness and longing us ashram guy premies might feel watching those slow motion shots of then twenty-something Durga Ji, Goddess of Love, bouncing down the beach into the arms of the Lord of Love Himself? Well, if we meditated long enough, I figured, that wouldn't be a problem any longer because we wouldn't exist any longer. We'd be subsumed in something or other, maybe like Mahatma Ji. Was it hard to understand? Yeah. So? Beautiful, wasn't it?

And we would just take over south Florida, that's for sure. THAT one might not even take all that long. And then all the old Miami Beach hotels would become little divine things and we would walk along the beach at twilight singing snatch phrases of arti and our favorite Anand Band tunes.

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Date: Thurs, Feb 22, 2001 at 07:47:52 (GMT)
From: janet
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: i can forgive u everything, hearing this
Message:
god, i remember it. the Divine City.the mirage of the mirage-ee. first it was COLL, then it was Milennium. then it was Denver. then it was la tierra del amor. then it was amaroo.

i thought that by the time i was cresting the 21st century , I and all the old timers-(you guys, the PAMS) would be blindingly radiant beings, seething in endless god consciousness, all seeing, all knowing, with no needs in the world at all, sustained on nectar and light and the Word. Breatharians, edenically pure. telepathic, able to heal by a touch, our every act would be miraculous to the suffering downtrodden ignorant. In the 70's i thought we would create a divine city out on the land and it would be like the week long festivals except we would never have to go home again becuse we were permanently home. i thought we would build the city into a shining society, to show the world how humans were meant to live. and to that end, i pursued i dont know how many dietary extremes, trying to 'purify' myself to ever higher imagined levels of godliness: from macrobiotics to sprouts to wheatgrass to fruit to juice fasting...to water fasting...to trying to live on the prana in the breath. yes, others did, so i should be able to, too!
in the 80's i added to the vision--a terrible time was coming when the human race would be decimated by terrible dark times. it could be nuclear winter, or global war, or climatic famine. i picked up and added to my belief vision the scenarios contributed by Ramtha and Lazaris and Gordon Michael Scallion: an armageddon of good vs evil, faced inside oneself and then outside. the 'lightworkers' would all have to keep the vibration of the planet from shattering apart.I bought crystals and started taking lessons in channelling.
then in the 90's it escalated still further: the earth was going to shift on its axis and the poles move. there was nothing we could do about it. millions would die. we enlightened beings were entrusted with the sacred responsibility of meditating for the fate of the race. if we meditated enough, we could pull the whole race with us thru the terrors. angelic beings would appear, to guide us thru. there was a fleet of space ships, waiting just out beyond our perception, to come to our aid if we called to them. if it got bad enough, they would rescue all of us and either keep us in the ships till the holocaust ended, or if the planet was destroyed, they would take us all with them, away, to the celestial home elsewhere, either to a new world, or back into the infinite to be with the godhead.
...
and around, oh, the year..1997, i suddenly just grew disgusted with the whole thing and chucked it and stopped buying into it.
and here i am.

hi Jim. small world after all

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Date: Thurs, Feb 22, 2001 at 06:24:01 (GMT)
From: Joe
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Yes, and everyone would wear Earth Shoes
Message:
There would be a big barragon factory, and maybe one that made meditation clothes and blankets.

Another acceptable film would be that cartoon called the Sunshine Makers, and we would do ART, like those 'discover the sunny kingdom' posters, and there would be lots of altars with all that great Indian trim that people usually put on Christmas trees tacked on all around.

And we would put on THEATER, (called PLA) and put on plays like THE COW, and WARM FUZZIES, that are just so wonderful and inspiring. And a dance troupe that does KRISHNA LILA. So exciting.

There would be no talking while eating, anywhere, and never in a kitchen either. No shoes worn inside any structure, and big, illuminated signs with the FIVE COMMANDMENTS on them. Anyone who was found to be DOUBTING, or IN THEIR MINDS, would be immediately sent to satsang, going on 24 hours a day.

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Date: Thurs, Feb 22, 2001 at 04:01:29 (GMT)
From: Postie
Email: None
To: JoeConnieBinJimFrancesca
Subject: This is too freakin' much - hilarious!
Message:
You guys are totally freaking me out - you must have photographic memories. You've captured the times spot on!

Joe, the details in your opening post almost precisely sums up my vision of what IT would be like. Plus a little 'Stranger in a Strange Land' and 'Be Here Now' and 'Autobiography of a Yogi' thrown in.

As to a Divine City, there was a point where M was looking at buying a huge tract of Key Largo and elsewhere for a Divine City - he ended up at the Eagles Nest in Malibu and there's condos on that Key Largo tract now.

I didn't read the 'Narnia' series until much later so that mythology wasn't happening then, but once I read it of course it all fit - Maharaji was Aslon the Lion, etc. But come to think of it, every time I would read some new 'meaningful' book, I'd project that on to M too. One of these was Kurt Vonegut's 'Sirens of Titan' if I recall wherein the protagonist ends up floating around in space all alone in a cool pad of a spaceship listening to his fave toons. (That sort of resembles what K is like now in fact - all alone listening to satellite videos).

Received K early 1972 - Fakiranand

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Date: Thurs, Feb 22, 2001 at 03:14:48 (GMT)
From: Steve Quint
Email: the_avenger55@hotmail.com
To: Jim
Subject: And The Cat Shall Talk With The Dog nt
Message:
nt
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Date: Thurs, Feb 22, 2001 at 03:23:31 (GMT)
From: Deputy Dog
Email: None
To: Steve Quint
Subject: Your head is still at Woodstock man! (nt)
Message:
Our fantasies are the source of our suffering.
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Date: Thurs, Feb 22, 2001 at 08:32:25 (GMT)
From: Connie
Email: None
To: Deputy Dog
Subject: Your head is still at Woodstock man! (nt)
Message:
The question Joe asked was good. Thanks Joe.

It asked me look at myself and what my expectations and experience were back then.

By doing this, I saw that this (however crazy) also contributed to my core belief about knowledge and Maharaji, and I have carried this with me all through the years, no matter how much the words and outward appearance changed.
Many of the people still involved are from that same era.

From the twelve individual contributors so far, their responses suggest that most related to what each other said. I remember Maharaji saying quite a few times that the reason people laugh at jokes is because there is an element of truth in them.

It also made me aware of the disappointment and death of hope that I had hidden for a long, long time, that something 'magical' did not happen from such potential.

The view back then, though whacky, roared potential and excitement. It was so outwardly expansive, encompassing the human race, now 30 years later the view is one of inward implosion, and sadly no one really knowing how to reach just one human being.

I find it telling that here you can laugh (mostly at yourself) whereas within Elan Vital you can't. If you spoke like that you'd be looked at like you had suddenly grown two heads and uttered the worst obscenities possible, jepordizing your chance to be approved for a training to be able to do anything. People would subtley move away from you. I do not consider that 'enjoyable'.

What was enjoyable was seeing another domino effect take place within me right before my eyes....ahhh freeing and exciting again! I love it.

C

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Date: Thurs, Feb 22, 2001 at 03:36:44 (GMT)
From: Steve Quint
Email: the_avenger55@hotmail.com
To: Deputy Dog
Subject: I Came Upon A Child Of God
Message:
WOODSTOCK by Joni Mitchell

I came upon a child of God
He was walking along the road
And I asked him, where are you going
And this he told me
I'm going on down to Yasgur's farm
I'm going to join in a rock 'n' roll band
I'm going to camp out on the land
I'm going to try an' get my soul free
We are stardust
We are golden
And we've got to get ourselves
Back to the garden

Then can I walk beside you
I have come here to lose the smog
And I feel to be a cog in something turning
Well maybe it is just the time of year
Or maybe it's the time of man
I don't know who l am
But you know life is for learning
We are stardust
We are golden
And we've got to get ourselves
Back to the garden

By the time we got to Woodstock
We were half a million strong
And everywhere there was song and celebration
And I dreamed I saw the bombers
Riding shotgun in the sky
And they were turning into butterflies
Above our nation
We are stardust
Billion year old carbon
We are golden
Caught in the devil's bargain
And we've got to get ourselves
Back to the garden

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Date: Thurs, Feb 22, 2001 at 20:02:48 (GMT)
From: cq
Email: None
To: Steve Quint
Subject: but dear, sweet Joni (I do love her) got it wrong
Message:
'we've got to get ourselves back to the Garden'???

Hmmmm, and wasn't that the same garden where we (the archetypal Adam and Eve) were forbidden from finding out the difference between good and evil? - prohibited too, from creating our own values?

I've always thought it strange how M called his snakeoil 'Knowledge', (of good and evil?)

If only it was.

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Date: Sat, Feb 24, 2001 at 04:15:01 (GMT)
From: Steve Quint
Email: the_avenger55@hotmail.com
To: cq
Subject: No She Didn't
Message:
Eden - Encarta

Merriam-Webster (link doesn't work)
Main Entry: Eden
Pronunciation: 'E-d&n
Function: noun
Etymology: Late Latin, from Hebrew `Edhen
Date: 13th century
1 : PARADISE 2
2 : the garden where according to the account in Genesis Adam and Eve first lived
- Eden·ic /i-'de-nik, E-/ adjective

American Heritage is similar.

This is not even poetic licence - chosing the definition that applies is only courtesy.

Steve

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Date: Thurs, Feb 22, 2001 at 00:51:34 (GMT)
From: Francesca
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: Too much to spill it out all at once ...
Message:
but here's a brief glimpse.

I hitchiked with my sister from SF down to LA in early 1973 to get K from Mahatma Fakirinand (who would later nearly kill an acquaintance of mine and an old friend of my roomates, Pat Halley but, I digress...)

I didn't get K because I wasn't ready yet. (Boy was he right about that, but I was gearin' up.)

On the way back, we hitched a ride from a guy with long blonde hair in a black pickup truck for much of the way home. The music from the Who musical, 'Tommy,' about a deaf, dumb and blind boy who was some sort of pinball wizard messiah was playing. ('I get excitement at your feet …') My sister was giving me satsang (not laying anything on me – I was asking all the questions) and I was sobbing. Holy shit, unbelievable emotions. It was like being alive when Jesus Christ walked the earth! It was like knowing he was here, now. God only knows what he could do for me, and the entire planet. Wow!

The poor guy didn't know what was up.

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Date: Thurs, Feb 22, 2001 at 00:29:54 (GMT)
From: Been There
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: Same as you...
Message:
1972. I imagined what you imagined. Some of the ashrams actually were utopian. But in others I saw all the same old stuff happening: the treasurers always with cash in the their pockets, nice clothes, nights out, etc. while the rest of us handed over our paychecks and had to ask for every little thing.

And competition. And one-up, one-down stuff.

And all that stuff prevails in the organization to this day: one-up, one down. If you're having darshan, you're 'superior.' If he talks to you, your 'stock is up.' If he doesn't talk to you, your 'stock is down.'

I wonder what he meant in saying he would bring peace to the world.

Now what I see is someone who has amassed an extraordinary amount of wealth, while most of his followers have little wealth, and he sees no contradiction in this. He doesn't see that his wealth has been gained at the expense of the premies' comfort.

It's all very disappointing. It was so magical in the early days. There was so much idealism, and so much potential.

Now I contribute to many causes, because I don't see that EV is really making any difference on a world scale...maybe giving individuals some inner peace, but all the things that need to be addressed need attention. I mistakenly thought Knowledge was going to somehow affect everything, bring everything into balance (remember the satsang: the East has a spiritually long foot and the West has a spiritually short foot, and Knowledge will bring them both into balance?) It hasn't happened, nor will it with what M. and the organization have become.

When I read down below that She was responsible for signing off on Visions projects, and that if She was traveling nothing could be finished until She returned, I thought, 'Well, there you have it. That explains a lot of the pablum that was signed off on.'

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Date: Thurs, Feb 22, 2001 at 00:19:03 (GMT)
From: Brian S
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: So, what did you imagine......Holy Shit
Message:
The Divine city, I had completely forgotten and buried that concept somewhere festering deep within my psyche.

This brings to mind just another one of the many illusionary carrots at the end of the spiritual stick that was dangled before us as early premies.

What did we end up with in its place? Amaroo! open up your wallets and bend over.

Amaroo is not exactly the purified, free, co-operative, utopian community that was once presented as a future possibility to all of those zealous devotees back then is it?

What Amaroo is, (a cash cow for the Guru) and what the Divine city was purported to be (utopia on earth) is just another arguement in favor of how bunko this whole scam really is.

It is hard for me to admit that 'I was really stupid' and 'impressionable' at one time to buy into some of this rubbish. Divine City, Wizard of Oz, what was I thinking? I am not beating myself up, I am being honest.

Hard core honesty today has been my lifeline to the truth about myself and my involvement with the cult. I Love it now when I get confronted with hidden issues today of where my head was/is at concerning the cult.

Thank you for dredging up one more 'Maharaji Myth' that I can throw in the garbage today Joe. This is just another example of how valuable a resource this forum is in cleaning out the cobwebs of cult confusion.

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Date: Wed, Feb 21, 2001 at 23:30:44 (GMT)
From: Joe
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: Also, state the year you rec'd K.
Message:
This might be interesting to see the alternative images, depending on what the cult was propagating at the time.

I received knowledge in 1973.

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Date: Thurs, Feb 22, 2001 at 06:52:03 (GMT)
From: Disculta
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: October 1971 reporting in.
Message:
I remember in my first ashram, in brighton, England, the Community Coordinator used to give satsang about how we would be taking over the world. He would be the mayor and some other spaced out hippie guy in the shram would be the treasurer and on like that.

I remember thinking that I hoped they didn't say anything like that when I brought my groovy friends to satsang. They did. I sweated bullets.

But part of me was quite sure that I was the lucky one who had found the way that the rest of the world hadn't found. The smugness of it!

And, oh, the come-down 12 years later!

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Date: Wed, Feb 21, 2001 at 23:42:08 (GMT)
From: JHB
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: Dec 1973 (nt)
Message:
lllllllll
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Date: Wed, Feb 21, 2001 at 23:27:44 (GMT)
From: JHB
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: I was a selfish bastard....
Message:
Joe,

I didn't get further than imagining my own enlightenment (although I hoped all my friends and family would also receive knowledge and realise it).

So, no utopian visions from me:-(

John the ex-hedonist

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Date: Thurs, Feb 22, 2001 at 15:07:11 (GMT)
From: Gregg
Email: None
To: JHB
Subject: Me, too: selfish bastard
Message:
Maybe if you got involved around the time of the Millenium, you were more prone to visions of Nixon and Breshnev lining up for prasad, but the thought never occurred to me that the whole world - or even a few million people - would receive Knowledge.

I was just in it for the kicks, and, of course, like many of us, to heal secret dysfunctional wounds.

Some healing!

Do PWK's out there still believe in a future Utopia? To me, that belief is way more delusional than the one that posits M as the Perfect master.

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Date: Thurs, Feb 22, 2001 at 16:27:42 (GMT)
From: Way
Email: None
To: Gregg
Subject: Me, too: selfish bastard
Message:
I'm one of the self-centered seekers of enlightenment. I never cared a wit about world peace. I arrived on the scene just after Millenium, so the world peace stuff was already being toned down.

I had already read the Gita. Krishna says that he has thousands of devotees, but very few would really know him. Christ of course says the same thing. I always figured that Maharaji would remain misunderstood by the masses and only a select few highly evolved ashram devotees like myself would ever really understand. I personally detested all propogation efforts.

I remember when we flew to Miami the first time, with our lapel Lord of the Universe buttons. We all ordered vegetarian meals, of course, and then nobody ate the hard boiled eggs. The stewardesses were perplexed and intrigued. They asked us why we didn't eat the eggs and of course who was the guy on the buttons. I knew that Maharaji would never be mainstream, but I didn't care. I wanted to end up enlightened and living with the select few other people who understood true Oneness.

But my dreams of attaining Nirvana were never realized. And the premies around me remained all too human and this-worldly. I figured at the Residence everyone would be peaceful, renunciate, and loving. But when I was there, I did service with a New York Jewish brat who was star-struck about Hollywood, and a creepy man who made fun of my sun-burned face. I saw a friend I hadn't seen in years. She recognized me but didn't even smile. The person I ate lunch with seemed deeply sad.

So these days, I seek to get more in touch with my finite self. I'm through trying to transcend it. That day will come. In the meantime, I should at least make friends with myself before I'm dead.

The world does need wisdom. I'm hoping that the 21st century will see the demise of all these gurus and their silly, false promises.

Thanks for the thread, Joe. I really laughed at your post, and at Jim's. I've always had trouble picturing either of you guys as premies.

It's funny, but in a small partial way, Prem Pal has evolved along the same lines as us exes. He doesn't talk about either enlightenment or world peace, just a simple enjoyment of life. So I'm taking his advice, as far as that goes. Trouble is, Mr. Rawat still keeps himself in the equation, and there's absolutely no reason to do that. His cult is now a hopeless mishmash of contradictory philosophies. He really should abandon his own sinking boat.

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Date: Thurs, Feb 22, 2001 at 17:27:25 (GMT)
From: gerry
Email: None
To: Way
Subject: Way, your comments reflect my thinking also
Message:
Funny how much alike our thinking was/is. I too really detested propogation and only pushed hard to 'convert' some close friends, all of whom took knoledge and 'practiced' for about a week.

Disclaimer: Even though we share some ideas, Way is a nice guy and I'm a prick so please don't think he's anything like me...

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Date: Thurs, Feb 22, 2001 at 17:50:31 (GMT)
From: Way
Email: None
To: gerry
Subject: Thanks, gerry, reminds me...
Message:
...of the Emenem/Elton John hug last night.
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Date: Thurs, Feb 22, 2001 at 18:40:48 (GMT)
From: gerry
Email: None
To: Way
Subject: Thanks, gerry, reminds me...
Message:
Come on Will, I'm not THAT bad :)
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Date: Thurs, Feb 22, 2001 at 09:02:07 (GMT)
From: Marianne
Email: None
To: JHB
Subject: November, '72 - Egalitarian paradise
Message:
I was only 16, but I thought that the whole world was going to be some type of egalitarian paradise when Captain Rawat took over.

Rennie Davis received knowledge soon after I did. That gave me lots of hope. I figured he'd be in charge of developing some of the social systems, and he'd know what to do, given his leftist credentials. And I hoped he'd see to it that the really jerky premies who had power were all dethroned. Joke was on me!

Having watched LOTU recently, I realize now that the only thing Rennie had a handle on at that point was slobbering gibberish. It was very painful to see him that way. He was usually very articulate and compassionate.

Can you believe we used to say all this stuff to each other in satsang, AND WE BELIEVED IT?????

Marianne

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Date: Fri, Feb 23, 2001 at 02:11:59 (GMT)
From: Pat Conlon
Email: None
To: Marianne
Subject: April Fool's Day '73 - 25 yo - Heaven on Earth NT
Message:
yeah right
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Date: Wed, Feb 21, 2001 at 17:58:45 (GMT)
From: Barry
Email: None
To: bill, katie
Subject: bill and katie how did you beat the guilt?
Message:
Hi! Katie, bill, I read your answers to my question. Katie I feel so bad for whwat you went through...the whole extra year for fear of going insane. bill, do you mean X lord fartsucker was threatening a traditional hell fire? The thing that really scared me about these answers is that the things being threatened apon you were to happen while your still living and breathing. The 'YOUR GOING TO PAY LATER' thing (like the C church pushes on you) does not applie in your case. has every X premie had a simular threat of hell fire or insanity for not continuing to practice knowledge? Not giving it up for X lord mufflebutt? That freaked me katie. Imagining someone continuing to practice some nightly guru ritual for fear of going insane because she was told that by his hench men. I feel bad for you. You have to tell me how you got out from under that. Everyone!
If you could , please tell me of the guru's threats to you. What is lord farts list of-this will happen to you if you don't do as your told? Does the organisation threaten an almost traditional hell with devils poking your ass etc...? I can tottaly relate to this aspect of your de programming. Finally something I can sink my teeth into.
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Date: Thurs, Feb 22, 2001 at 07:46:58 (GMT)
From: Scott T.
Email: None
To: Barry
Subject: bill and katie how did you beat the guilt?
Message:
Barry:

That freaked me katie. Imagining someone continuing to practice some nightly guru ritual for fear of going insane because she was told that by his hench men. I feel bad for you. You have to tell me how you got out from under that. Everyone!

Well, I don't know what most others did but by that time I had already been insane, and didn't really give a damn if I went there again. It's not really so bad, except for the drool and the smell of aged urine deglazing the pan. 'What the hell,' I figured, 'go nuts and get it over with.' But the weird thing is, I not only didn't go nuts, I had fun. And no peculiar odors. Well, except for that odd fishy smell...

--Scott

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Date: Fri, Feb 23, 2001 at 02:51:35 (GMT)
From: Barry
Email: None
To: Scott T.
Subject: WHAaAaAaAahOoOoOo cRaZy MaN!!(nt)
Message:
jjj
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Date: Thurs, Feb 22, 2001 at 03:15:40 (GMT)
From: Katie
Email: None
To: Barry
Subject: bill and katie how did you beat the guilt?
Message:
Hi Barry - it's late and I had a long day, so this answer will be short. One thing that you said in your question wasn't correct - it wasn't Maharaji's henchmen that made me afraid not to practice K, it was Maharaji himself. No matter WHAT people say now, he did say some really intimidating things.

I will try and find the 'rotten vegetables' quote on the site tomorrow - I think J-M also has some other hellfire and damnation quotes from M, and I know Joe has written about this in the past too.

About guilt - I felt guilty the whole time I was a premie because I wasn't doing 'enough' - I don't think ANYONE could have ever done as much as Maharaji expected, at least back then. I think most of us felt bad because we weren't the perfect devotees. Anyway, I felt guilty when my mind wandered when I was supposed to be meditating, guilty when I didn't go to satsang every night, guilty because I wasn't doing enough 'service' for Maharaji. When I decided to leave, I was really scared of going crazy, but it ENDED the guilt, which felt so good. I was still scared, but I felt like I'd been let out of jail.

I think I wrote something about this in my other post, but basically what happened is that I got so tired of feeling guilty and like I wasn't doing enough all the time (and I never did experience anything in meditation, like some of the other people on here did - I felt guilty about THAT too), that I just HAD to get out. It got to the point where it was worth the risk of going nuts.

It also helped me a lot to have the support of two other ex-premies who left shortly before I did. (I could SEE that they weren't going crazy, although we were all scared of it for a while.) This was a long time ago, so of course, we didn't have the internet, and I was lucky to even have other ex-premies to talk to. A lot of people who post here didn't have that.

Hope this helps you understand a little more.
Take care,
Katie

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Date: Thurs, Feb 22, 2001 at 20:23:53 (GMT)
From: Barry
Email: None
To: Katie
Subject: Thanks Katie(nt)
Message:
iii
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Date: Thurs, Feb 22, 2001 at 12:07:50 (GMT)
From: Katie
Email: None
To: Barry
Subject: P.S. Barry
Message:
I forgot to say that I was 16 when I received Knowledge (not very grown-up, and still very impressionable) although I had already done a lot of weird things.) And, unlike Scott T., I was really afraid of going crazy - I felt like I was 'on the edge' a lot of the time, plus knew some people who were locked up in psych wards.
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Date: Thurs, Feb 22, 2001 at 01:28:41 (GMT)
From: Barry
Email: None
To: All who answered.
Subject: I don't get these responces?
Message:
I am not trying to be upity at all. I was simply quoting Katies response. She said that M said now that you've recieved K if you don't keep practicing you'll go insane? I just wanted to say that must have been horrible for premies if a similar thing was said to others when they were premies. Unlike the Church of Christ and the bible, where it's more of a pay later for throwing away the knowledge of eternal life. In Katies situation she had to worry about going crazy in this life. I was just hoping others could confirm similar experiences.
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Date: Wed, Feb 21, 2001 at 21:38:12 (GMT)
From: bill--no need for a new
Email: None
To: Barry
Subject: thread Barry, if it is still in active index then,
Message:
It was not all fear, it was just a carrot and a stick.
The carrot was not real, bummer because he was the master of the carrot and claimed it was the ultimate carrot.
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Date: Wed, Feb 21, 2001 at 21:43:44 (GMT)
From: bill--The Mike Dettmers
Email: None
To: bill--no need for a new
Subject: posts willremove your last fears of being wrong.nt
Message:
dasfg
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Date: Wed, Feb 21, 2001 at 20:37:16 (GMT)
From: Bin Liner
Email: None
To: Barry
Subject: Rawat was JC . In the FLESH , no less
Message:

Beat that one.

Gentle jesus meek & mild , & the guy who can cut you off without a penny , both at the same time .

Don't worry about it , at least you didn't get fucked twice.

I was lucky with the R.C 's ; being brought up in England in the '50's, our comic book heroes were all guys in khaki who shouted 'take that you Nazi swine '.

Consquently , on the few occasions I was subjected to the fire & brimstone treatment , I used to imagine myself in khaki , with a tommy gun , facing a black dressed ss man , & all was well.

Many years later along came the 'Universe of Love ' guy .

Well ,you could've copped it too .

Getting rid of it all , who knows.

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Date: Thurs, Feb 22, 2001 at 00:01:20 (GMT)
From: Jethro
Email: None
To: Bin Liner
Subject: BL - get your facts straight!!!
Message:
bal bagwan(satpal) is JC.
Prem is The Father, Supreme Lord of Lords(greater than god).

Oh yes..and there was something about there being 5 incarnations of the PM. prem, mata ji and the 3 brothers, although that wasn't pushed so much.

Anywaythe title of this subject is bolloxology.

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Date: Thurs, Feb 22, 2001 at 09:21:16 (GMT)
From: Brian Smith
Email: None
To: Jethro
Subject: BL-get your facts straight! Check this story out,
Message:
I also remember hearing that Bhole Ji was supposed to be the incarnation of Lord Shiva the Destroyer, and Mata Ji, something equal to Mother Nature, I kid you not Mahatma Regeshwar told me that Mata Ji could change the weather if she wanted to and that he had witnessed her doing so on several occassions.

One of my early community services was to be the personal Valet and Chauffer to many of the visiting Mahatmas (I was the only one in the community at that time who always had a brand new car) On these occasions there was plenty of opportunity to be filled with all sorts of private propaganda from the insiders. Regeshwar related to me an incident in India where the weather was not co-operating for an outdoor festival and Mata Ji saved the day by bringing out the Sun then immediately following the festival the torrential rains commenced as per her wishes.

He also told me he was a great driver, and how much he enjoyed driving, he said he really liked my car and really wanted to drive my then brand new 1973 gold Chrysler Imperial, leather seats, power everything, all the bells and whistles, a real beauty.

We were on the way to a TV interview and he begged me to let him drive. I reluctantly let him drive and within minutes he promptly smashed into a parked car at the studio lot. Completely sideswiped the whole side of my not even 30 day old car and did a fair amount of damage to the front end of another vehicle.

He sheepishly apologized and he adamantly assured me that he would take care of the damages, he never did. But then a funny thing happened, the body shop owner where I took the car for repairs had watched the news on the night that he and I were on and he recognized me from the broadcast. For some reason, after hearing my story, he gave me a huge break on the repairs. I had run into trouble with my insurance coverage for letting an unlicensed driver from a foreign country drive, so I had to cough up most of the money myself.

So for a bottle of good whiskey as a gesture of thanks and a couple hundred bucks I had my car restored to mint condition.
The community director of course accredited the 'Grace of Guru Maharaji' as the reason why it worked out that way. It might have been more like the Grace of Jack Daniels or Jim Beam as I look back on it.

Ok Regeshwar, Let me see if I have these facts straight. Mata Ji is Mother Nature, She controls the weather at will, The Holy family brothers are all incarnated previous perfect masters, M himself is the Lord of the Universe and you are a good driver and your check for damages that you incurred to my new car is in the mail.

Actually I have always liked Regeshwar very much, and I never held any ill will towards him for this incident.

True story, sometimes the more I go back over and look at these past events, the funnier it gets.

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Date: Fri, Feb 23, 2001 at 02:31:24 (GMT)
From: Barry
Email: None
To: Brian Smith
Subject: Really good story. Thank you Brian.(nt)
Message:
ggg
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Date: Thurs, Feb 22, 2001 at 19:18:28 (GMT)
From: Jethro
Email: None
To: Brian Smith
Subject: Remembered another
Message:
story that prem and his dad were infact one soul split into 2 bodies....
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Date: Thurs, Feb 22, 2001 at 12:15:45 (GMT)
From: Katie
Email: None
To: Brian Smith
Subject: Great story, Brian S!
Message:
That WAS funny - although maybe not at the time. What were you doing with a brand new Chrysler Imperial anyway (snicker)?

I always liked Rajeshwar too - or at least thought he was the least crazy of any of the Indian mahatmas.

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Date: Thurs, Feb 22, 2001 at 19:36:37 (GMT)
From: Brian S
Email: None
To: Katie
Subject: Great story, Brian S! I got that car because
Message:
I was in sales, It was a company car provided to me and we got new ones twice a year. Beauty supplies, It was a great job, and I was too good a salesman to get canned whenever I took off for festivals and Maharaji related events.

I eventually parlayed that job into ownership of a large chain of Beauty Salons. Which I sold a few years ago.

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Date: Fri, Feb 23, 2001 at 17:11:26 (GMT)
From: Katie
Email: None
To: Brian S
Subject: The other premies must have loved it...
Message:
...that you had a new car in which to chauffer around mahatmas :).

As I recall, a 1972 Imperial is a BOAT. No wonder Rajeshwar side-swiped another car.

BTW, congratulations on being so good at your job - you must have been REALLY good if they let you off to go to festivals.

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Date: Fri, Feb 23, 2001 at 23:24:45 (GMT)
From: Brian S
Email: None
To: Katie
Subject: The other premies must have loved it...
Message:
They did, and it was particularly funny when we drove up to the program that evening in this brand new car with the side bashed in. There where all of these people and premies out front of the hall waiting to catch a glimpse of Rageshwar and we rolled up looking like the beverly hillbillies, pieces of chrome dangling, etc. Piss elegant as all Hell.

The car was a boat, and that was partly why the Mahatma loved it, the excessive american indulgence of it all, an attitude that probably rubbed off from Maharaji's taste in conspicuious consumption.

My monthly numbers and production spoke for themselves, in sales unlike other jobs, as long as you continue to produce you can write your own ticket. The owner of the company was into Hatha Yoga and he and I had a great understanding. Sometimes things work out great in life and that job opportunity was just perfect for my lifestyle at that time.

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Date: Thurs, Feb 22, 2001 at 04:22:01 (GMT)
From: Postie
Email: None
To: Jethro / Bin
Subject: Bramha, Vishnu, Shiva
Message:
Bramha= generator = G = Bal Bhagwan Ji

Vishnu= operator = O = Raja Ji

Shiva= destroyer = D = Bhole Ji

Notice that spells GOD for all us embiciles that didn't understand the heaviosity of it all.

And Guru Maharaj Ji was all three in spades.

And the Jesus thing, too and Krishna and Ram and .......

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Date: Wed, Feb 21, 2001 at 19:13:21 (GMT)
From: Lurker #27
Email: None
To: Barry
Subject: Barry, you are talking pretty uppity . .
Message:
. .for someone who doesn't even have Knowledge.
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Date: Thurs, Feb 22, 2001 at 01:14:46 (GMT)
From: Barry
Email: None
To: Lurker #27
Subject: Are you saying I should get some?(nt)
Message:
lll
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Date: Wed, Feb 21, 2001 at 22:21:30 (GMT)
From: Selene
Email: None
To: Lurker #27
Subject: everyone has K or no one does
Message:
since it's not real.
However you want to look at it. I believe M says (or DID say) we all have it, he just shows us we have it, of some such revision of such.
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Date: Thurs, Feb 22, 2001 at 01:37:53 (GMT)
From: Barry
Email: None
To: Selene
Subject: and he never said it was his gift to you?(nt)
Message:
hahh?
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Date: Thurs, Feb 22, 2001 at 02:42:11 (GMT)
From: CD
Email: None
To: Barry
Subject: said
Message:
Some G and M theory:

'Guru reveals GOD, so Guru is greater than GOD'

GOD = Generator + Operator + Destroyer

'That which you are looking for is already inside of you.'

When you look into a lake with ripples and the ripples stop, you see yourself. When your ideas quiet down, you experience you.

Your mind is like a beautiful bucking bronco. If you want to ride it and not get thrown you have to tame it.

You can't see your own face without a mirror.

Universe = One Word

The Word that was in the beginning is the Word.

Happiness is a consequence, not an experience.

Air isn't H2O and all that other stuf. Its just air.

God had mercy, so he made that ugly worm both a male and a female.

Socrates was sentenced to death, accused of misleading people.

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Date: Thurs, Feb 22, 2001 at 20:41:37 (GMT)
From: Barry
Email: None
To: CD
Subject: CD Why do you do this?
Message:
What are you trying to do by posting me that goofy shit. It sounds like an old episode of kung foo. No what I mean grass hopper? If you think that stuff twists me up toward your masters way of thinking your wrong. If your going to throw in your 2 cents, then make sure fatso didn't give you slugs to pay with!
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Date: Fri, Feb 23, 2001 at 00:57:56 (GMT)
From: CD
Email: None
To: Barry
Subject: Why
Message:
Because I felt like it.

>If you think that stuff twists me up toward your masters way of thinking your wrong.

That wasn't my intent.
You put that meaning into the words.
I posted a few statements some of which happen to have been around for a long time.
Yes, maybe even in the Kung Fu show. Got a problem with that too?

Sure I new it would get a reaction. Just consider the current mindset of some of the people who post here. Reactionary. So what.

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Date: Fri, Feb 23, 2001 at 02:21:49 (GMT)
From: Barry
Email: None
To: CD
Subject: C'mon CD....
Message:
If your just posting those goofy indian quotes to get a reaction..well of course your going to get one. Don't be like one of those other premies that pop up and vanish like wimps poking an injured frog, and then running away. I really think alot of people here like you and your discussions. But if your just going to leave the occasional turd for everyone to smell... well, no one will take you serious at all. No one here wants to hear groovy little indian wizdom farts. You damn well know that by now? Right?
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Date: Fri, Feb 23, 2001 at 04:55:33 (GMT)
From: Jethro
Email: None
To: Barry
Subject: Premies can't help it
Message:
'Don't be like one of those other premies that pop up and vanish like wimps poking an injured frog, and then running away.'

CD and Mili are exactly that.
Sad, sad. Isn't it?

Have you ever met a flat-earther or a holocaust denier?

It's exactly the same syndrome.

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Date: Sat, Feb 24, 2001 at 00:24:16 (GMT)
From: Barry
Email: None
To: Jethro
Subject: True enough!(nt)
Message:
jjj
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Date: Thurs, Feb 22, 2001 at 09:08:23 (GMT)
From: Marianne
Email: None
To: CD
Subject: FA, can you delete this satsang crap from CD?
Message:
CD, go somewhere else and peddle this garbage. Go make some money to send to your Lord and Master or something. No one wants to hear it here.
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Date: Fri, Feb 23, 2001 at 01:01:22 (GMT)
From: CD
Email: None
To: Marianne
Subject: FA, can you delete this satsang crap from CD?
Message:
>No one wants to hear it here.

You don't. No one? Guess again.
And what I posted was no big deal.
Some of it is simple ideas.

Ms free speech liberal lawyer strikes again.
Not so free speech I see.
I think your work is probably positive.
Your reactionary attitude is not.

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Date: Thurs, Feb 22, 2001 at 10:44:23 (GMT)
From: Forum Admin
Email: None
To: Marianne
Subject: No - CD provides a valuable service
Message:
CD provides proof, if further proof were needed, of his cult conditioning, by spouting nonsense and refusing to face up to any of the substantive issues raised here regarding the cult.

Forum Admin

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Date: Thurs, Feb 22, 2001 at 18:23:35 (GMT)
From: Francesca
Email: None
To: Forum Admin
Subject: Amen on that one and all folks ...
Message:
who would give satsang here. It used to annoy me, but I'm a believer in free (nonabusive) speech. If someone who comes on this board buys that stuff, so be it.

For the most part, it's a stark and often ridiculous contrast to everything else here, and the satsangers never really substantively answer or comment on anything that's posted, although they generally have a lot to say while they talk around it.

As we think we have a service to do by posting here, they think they have a service to do by 'contrasting' here or being the foil.

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Date: Thurs, Feb 22, 2001 at 10:58:24 (GMT)
From: Marianne
Email: None
To: Forum Admin
Subject: Hello FA
Message:
Usually I never read what he posts because this is the reaction I have to what he says. This garbage he posted today really pissed me off. You're right about this.

I'll just continue to ignore the idiot.

Thanks, Marianne

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Date: Thurs, Feb 22, 2001 at 03:17:27 (GMT)
From: Selene
Email: None
To: CD
Subject: so?
Message:
and your point is?
Too bad you aren't a UNIX geek I could ask you questions that would get an answer.
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Date: Fri, Feb 23, 2001 at 07:08:05 (GMT)
From: CD
Email: None
To: Selene
Subject: so? OT
Message:
>Too bad you aren't a UNIX geek I could ask you questions that would get an answer.

I just got a couple books titled:
'Linux Socket Programming'
'Solaris Internals'

Am I switching to UNIX or Jims way of thinking and acting?
No, I like Bill G and Jim likes me just the way I am.
Don't you love it - g.

CD

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Date: Thurs, Feb 22, 2001 at 02:13:49 (GMT)
From: Selene
Email: None
To: Barry
Subject: and he never said it was his gift to you?(nt)
Message:
well of course he did. Thatt was implicit in my last post, that he said HE could show us that which was in us. But he totally implied we needed him to show us. (even thought it's in us !)
I do not agree with him.
I will quote a friend of mine who upon getting 'IT' from EST in the 80's said, well I'm glad I paid all that money to get it just to proove I didn't need it.

L,
s

ps the Grammy's are a big showcase but I admire Madonnaa's tenacity and shit she's in her mid 40's!!! so as I await tec support calls I think I'll go to the Tv. Bye for now.

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Date: Wed, Feb 21, 2001 at 23:17:35 (GMT)
From: Daneane
Email: None
To: Selene
Subject: I love that response
Message:
'for someone who doesn't even have knowledge'

I've never been shot in the head thirteen times...but I think I can imagine it would really suck.

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Date: Wed, Feb 21, 2001 at 23:48:13 (GMT)
From: Selene
Email: None
To: Daneane
Subject: I love that response - exactly
Message:
wish I'd thought of that :)

Hi Daneane. Hey I can spell your name right finally.
gotta go, computer crisis, yuck!! You know it's bad cause I came
here for a pleasant distraction as I wait for all the return phone calls.

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Date: Wed, Feb 21, 2001 at 18:27:25 (GMT)
From: JHB
Email: None
To: Barry
Subject: how did you beat the guilt?
Message:
Barry,

I thought I'd throw in my two cents worth. I think what you need to understand is the mental attitude behind this. Maharaji didn't need overt threats about what would happen if we left, because for someone who understood who Maharaji was, and what the purpose of life was, there was nowhere else to go! As one my favourite songs said:-

Leaving your Lotus Feet,
oh, where would we go

That's it - it wasn't a choice between staying or damnation. The alternative just wasn't there - we had been saved by receiving knowledge, and we we just had to continue.

So how did I leave? Looking back, I think it was gradual, with the final 'Oh my god I'm in a cult' realisation not actually feeling that dramatic in the end. I guess I was just lucky (and of course this site helped tremendously!).

John.

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Date: Wed, Feb 21, 2001 at 18:35:20 (GMT)
From: Barry
Email: None
To: JHB
Subject: Question?
Message:
John. I don't get the No alturnitive thing (fuck my spelling reaks!) anyhow, Once you recieved K, you say there just wasn't anything else...but would the alturnitive be emptiness, lonelyness? Isn't that a hell in it's own right? In the C church they say once you've recieved the keys to salvation, and you throw them away...well your ignoring your only means to ever lasting joy and family to god. I think in a way M was doing this to you by saying the same thing..??? I don't know .talk to me
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Date: Thurs, Feb 22, 2001 at 08:15:20 (GMT)
From: Scott T.
Email: None
To: Barry
Subject: Question?
Message:
Barry:

Serious answer:

For me at least, I wasn't intimidated by those kinds of veiled threats. I had already been through the ringer from the 60s and saw the whole Guru thing as relatively lightweight by comparison. Most of the others in the cult at the time were younger than I, and had not been through that era and it's aftermath. At least, they hadn't been up to their necks in it. It was the positive promise that kept me around... the whole notion that Maharaji would *change things* in a radical and lovely way. As soon as I got an inkling from him that he had reneged on that deal I was gone. Actually, I joined a more acceptable personality cult, that of R. Buckminster Fuller. Now there's a guy that Maharaji doesn't bear comparison with. Dymaxion Car vs chopped up mini-Cooper. Geodesic Dome vs. ham radio hobby. A 90 year old who stomped around the stage and climbed on top of furniture in his excitement, with chalk flying in 12 different directions at once vs. a chubby little frump who looked bored all the time. I learned a lot from that comparison.

--Scott

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Date: Thurs, Feb 22, 2001 at 20:35:14 (GMT)
From: Barry
Email: None
To: Scott T.
Subject: Scott. You were one of the lucky ones for sure!
Message:
Good!
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Date: Wed, Feb 21, 2001 at 21:56:01 (GMT)
From: JHB
Email: None
To: Barry
Subject: Attempt at an answer
Message:
Barry,

In the same way I didn't question whether there were other gurus teaching the same techniques, and didn't question the circumstances surrounding Maharaji's split with the rest of his family, and didn't question his right to have an Aston martin, several big houses, and an aeroplane; I also didn't question what the alternative to following him was. So for me, there was no alternative. I just didn't think about it.

John.

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Date: Thurs, Feb 22, 2001 at 01:20:59 (GMT)
From: Barry
Email: None
To: JHB
Subject: So your saying....
Message:
You never thought about..what if I left all this? Knowledge etc..
You didn't think at the time you were throwing away ever lasting bliss. If not, why was it so hard for so many to leave?
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Date: Wed, Feb 21, 2001 at 18:44:30 (GMT)
From: Barry
Email: None
To: Barry
Subject: I'm off. Got to get my blood transfusion!(nt)
Message:
jjjj
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Date: Wed, Feb 21, 2001 at 16:21:05 (GMT)
From: G
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: 'Infinity Ultima Thule'
Message:
Here's a link to another weird cult web site:

'Infinity Ultima Thule - Forms of Yellow Remember'

It sounds silly yet it's dangerous. Someone at www.ex-cult.org's forum said that this cult took his wife and kids away from him.

Now what is 'Ultima Thule'? Why, it is

...that place beyond which you cannot go. From the context of the vials, drinks and pendants it is a Universe 5,000 billion light years across, still growing as the need may arise, perched on the event horizon of a black hole that is to be found in the Heart of mankind on the right side, coincident with the pacemaker of the Heart. Ultima Thule is a way of Healing, by lifting an individual beyond the realm of the physics of their dis-ease. Ultimately Ultima Thule may replace the entire cosmos, thus lifting everything to a New Age of Enlightenment.

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Date: Wed, Feb 21, 2001 at 16:43:05 (GMT)
From: G
Email: None
To: all
Subject: Power of the placebo
Message:
And here's a site related to 'Yellow' cult:

www.earthnucleus-wildfire.com

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Date: Wed, Feb 21, 2001 at 16:34:28 (GMT)
From: Scott T.
Email: None
To: G
Subject: 'Infinity Ultima Thule'
Message:
G:

Thanks. I thought 'Ulitma Thule' must be a new line of bicycle roof racks from Thule. I have the lastest dual cam closure, which can also be quickly and easily accepted on a Yakima system.

Thule Worldwide

--Scott

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Date: Wed, Feb 21, 2001 at 22:34:50 (GMT)
From: Joe
Email: None
To: Scott T.
Subject: I thought the same thing
Message:
Only I thought it would be carriers for Kayaks produced by Thule.
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Date: Thurs, Feb 22, 2001 at 08:18:52 (GMT)
From: janet
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: huh-bboyy..sigh. shakes head. not another one.
Message:
refer to my post under the divine city thread.
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Date: Thurs, Feb 22, 2001 at 20:11:38 (GMT)
From: Scott T.
Email: None
To: janet
Subject: huh-bboyy..sigh. shakes head. not another one.
Message:
Janet:

refer to my post under the divine city thread.

I can't find it. Was the post about bikes, kayaks, or just roof racks in general?

--Scott

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Date: Wed, Feb 21, 2001 at 15:38:44 (GMT)
From: Way
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: Bios of Shri Hans and Mataji
Message:
On Satpal's website, Manav Dharam, the links for biographies of Shri Hans and for Mataji are finally up. There's quite a bit of information for both of them, but unfortunately, nothing new. The only new thing I learned was that Shri Hans' death occurred at 3am. (No mention of soap).

We learn what Mataji had to say at her husband's funeral, specifically how she instructed her sons, but for some reason there is no mention of what the youngest son had to say at the same event. They do say that Mataji helped spread Knowledge around the world, but again there is no mention of little Prem Pal.

Shri Han's guru, Sampuranand is mentioned, but what happened to Sampuranand's followers after his death is left out.

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Date: Wed, Feb 21, 2001 at 19:43:35 (GMT)
From: Louella Parsnip
Email: None
To: Way
Subject: Sex, Hansji and no Video Tape...
Message:
Lookit this interesting remark found on the pages of EPO:

''Sarupanand was Hansji's guru......Hansji was also apparently initiated by the late Sawan Singh of Radhasoami Satsang Beas.''

''Gyani Ji at Sawan Ashram in 1978 told me that Hansji had been initiated by Sawan Singh in the 1920s, but later left due to some personal problems (I think Gyanji said something about sex, but such gossip is notorious in India and not be relied upon unless there are many sources).''

Now, while searching elsewhere on the internet, I recall reading something about Sawan Singh. He apparently had one very devoted devotee, who hated all women. This devotee was very devoted to his Master, and would wait for his master in his master's bedroom, to remove his master's socks at night and otherwise serve him.

Hmmmm.....

Makes ya wonder, if Hansji didn't leave Sawan, because Sawan tried to teach 'young' Hansji a new technique, without benifit of vaseline? Ok, ok, I'm GUESSING! (maybe he DID use vaseline!). At any rate, it would seem that Prof. David Lane IS holding back a juicy bit of gossip. Com'on David, Spill the beans! Enquiring minds want to know.

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Date: Wed, Feb 21, 2001 at 23:56:42 (GMT)
From: Jethro
Email: None
To: Louella Parsnip
Subject: Sex, Hansji and no Video Tape...
Message:
'Gyani Ji at Sawan Ashram in 1978 told me that Hansji had been initiated by Sawan Singh in the 1920s, but later left due to some personal problems (I think Gyanji said something about sex, but such gossip is notorious in India and not be relied upon unless there are many sources).''

Interesting, I had heard of this from another source, an Indian man in his early 60s who said he remembered newspapers reports about hansji being involved in some sexual scandal during his earlier years. Still as you said this type of talk is npotorious in India. Many gurus have been accussed of the same.
I seem to remember that the head of Ananda Margo was imprisoned for sexually abusing children.

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Date: Wed, Feb 21, 2001 at 19:06:53 (GMT)
From: Jethro
Email: None
To: Way
Subject: Facts????
Message:
According to a mahatmah here in London who says he was a devotee of Sarupanand and is now a devotee of another Maharaji), after Sarupanand's death, ther were 4 groups that declared themselves the true ones and went off and started missions.
The mahatma says he remembers hansji as a satsangi( a satsang giver!!).
Anyway it's hard to know what the facts were as every cult has it's own version of history.

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