Forum V: Archive
Compiled: Fri, Mar 16, 2001 at 02:45:51 (GMT)
From: Mar 03, 2001 To: Mar 15, 2001 Page: 4 Of: 5


Abi -:- Letter from Sally Reeder '78 -:- Wed, Mar 07, 2001 at 08:27:49 (GMT)
__ Babs -:- Look what I found! -:- Fri, Mar 09, 2001 at 06:04:41 (GMT)
__ Francesca -:- ABI -- 5 stars!! -:- Wed, Mar 07, 2001 at 17:33:44 (GMT)
__ D_Thomas -:- Does any one know the process -:- Wed, Mar 07, 2001 at 14:09:59 (GMT)
__ __ Joe -:- Does any one know the process -:- Wed, Mar 07, 2001 at 18:42:18 (GMT)
__ __ __ Cynthia -:- When I was in DLM Headquarters in Miami... -:- Wed, Mar 07, 2001 at 21:50:41 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Joe -:- Right, that was my recollection as well. -:- Wed, Mar 07, 2001 at 22:00:14 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ D_Thomas -:- Letters -:- Thurs, Mar 08, 2001 at 20:46:19 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Postie -:- Background info on The Letters -:- Thurs, Mar 08, 2001 at 21:04:26 (GMT)
__ Jean-Michel -:- Sally's now French!! -:- Wed, Mar 07, 2001 at 11:37:21 (GMT)
__ Abi -:- All Satguru's children must be -:- Wed, Mar 07, 2001 at 10:08:42 (GMT)
__ __ Disculta -:- Damn... there it is... -:- Wed, Mar 07, 2001 at 15:34:59 (GMT)
__ __ __ Postie -:- In fairness to Sally, Dot and the letter writers -:- Wed, Mar 07, 2001 at 17:07:36 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Suzanne -:- I would never let Venetia alone with my kids... -:- Wed, Mar 07, 2001 at 18:46:07 (GMT)

Barry -:- Anyone who recieved Jim's mp3! OT -:- Wed, Mar 07, 2001 at 08:24:29 (GMT)
__ Cynthia -:- I think it's super cool! More please...nt -:- Tues, Mar 13, 2001 at 16:03:50 (GMT)
__ Postie -:- Barry, send me one of Jim's mp3's -:- Wed, Mar 07, 2001 at 16:01:43 (GMT)
__ Jim -:- Barry, this isn't doing me any favours -:- Wed, Mar 07, 2001 at 15:48:06 (GMT)
__ salam -:- are you some kind of agent for Jim or somethin? -:- Wed, Mar 07, 2001 at 14:34:46 (GMT)
__ __ Barry -:- Are you some kind of gruff jerk! or somethin? -:- Wed, Mar 07, 2001 at 21:28:43 (GMT)
__ __ __ salam -:- The reason I asked is -:- Thurs, Mar 08, 2001 at 00:00:57 (GMT)
__ Jethro -:- It IS cool (nt) -:- Wed, Mar 07, 2001 at 10:16:48 (GMT)
__ Pat Conlon -:- I didn't recieve Jim's mp3! OT -:- Wed, Mar 07, 2001 at 08:39:26 (GMT)
__ __ Barry -:- Pat my boy! I don't see why not! OT -:- Wed, Mar 07, 2001 at 08:48:13 (GMT)
__ __ __ Francesca -:- A little info -:- Wed, Mar 07, 2001 at 17:39:29 (GMT)
__ __ __ Pat Conlon -:- Thanks, Barry OT -:- Wed, Mar 07, 2001 at 09:01:30 (GMT)

Disculta -:- Forum 5 wins an Oscar -:- Wed, Mar 07, 2001 at 05:34:53 (GMT)
__ salam -:- Thank you..nt -:- Thurs, Mar 08, 2001 at 00:18:17 (GMT)
__ janet in hollywood -:- for best documentary -:- Wed, Mar 07, 2001 at 06:07:44 (GMT)
__ Roy -:- Love to you - Thanks to the academy nt -:- Wed, Mar 07, 2001 at 05:47:47 (GMT)
__ __ Dickie Pwickie -:- First of all I'd like to thank The Speaker... -:- Wed, Mar 07, 2001 at 07:07:55 (GMT)
__ __ __ Luke Pewk -:- You should be ashamed of yourself, Dickie -:- Thurs, Mar 08, 2001 at 19:38:13 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Dickie Pwickie -:- Only The Speaker can shame me, Luke -:- Thurs, Mar 08, 2001 at 20:18:49 (GMT)
__ __ __ The Thunderstealing Bitch -:- Actually I must bow to Brian Smith's tour de force -:- Wed, Mar 07, 2001 at 08:01:04 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Postie -:- Brian Smith's tour de force - I agree - brilliant -:- Wed, Mar 07, 2001 at 16:28:58 (GMT)

Abi -:- Need help with tracking down DLM kids -:- Wed, Mar 07, 2001 at 04:18:19 (GMT)
__ Forum Admin -:- Need help with tracking down DLM kids -:- Wed, Mar 07, 2001 at 09:17:31 (GMT)
__ __ Abi -:- Need help with tracking down DLM kids -:- Wed, Mar 07, 2001 at 09:50:25 (GMT)
__ __ __ Nigel -:- Suggest FA keeps towns but removes street etc (nt) -:- Wed, Mar 07, 2001 at 17:05:08 (GMT)
__ Jean-Michel -:- I have old pictures and article -:- Wed, Mar 07, 2001 at 08:21:39 (GMT)
__ __ Abi -:- I have old pictures and article -:- Wed, Mar 07, 2001 at 08:28:58 (GMT)

Jim -:- Eminem and Elton John -- aftermath (OT) -:- Wed, Mar 07, 2001 at 04:17:08 (GMT)
__ Joe -:- Very Funny -- Love the Onion) -:- Wed, Mar 07, 2001 at 18:31:44 (GMT)
__ __ Lurker #27 -:- SATIRE? Chariist it had me fooled!!!! (NT) -:- Wed, Mar 07, 2001 at 21:15:43 (GMT)
__ __ Nigel -:- At the risk of sounding Freudian... -:- Wed, Mar 07, 2001 at 19:04:39 (GMT)
__ __ __ Thelma -:- Nigel, Eminem is what us old fags used to call -:- Wed, Mar 07, 2001 at 19:38:22 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Joe -:- Do you think he's 'strictly' trade? *(nt) -:- Wed, Mar 07, 2001 at 19:40:19 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Thelma -:- Do you think he's 'strictly' trade? Let's find out -:- Wed, Mar 07, 2001 at 19:49:22 (GMT)
__ __ __ Joe -:- Oh, so what you are saying -:- Wed, Mar 07, 2001 at 19:26:27 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Nigel -:- Oh, so what you are saying -:- Wed, Mar 07, 2001 at 19:55:31 (GMT)
__ __ __ Joe -:- Don't you mean at the risk of sounding GAY? (nt) -:- Wed, Mar 07, 2001 at 19:07:17 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Nigel -:- Who me? - Good grief! -:- Wed, Mar 07, 2001 at 19:20:12 (GMT)
__ Lurker #27 -:- Elton John said the song was 'brave' . . . . -:- Wed, Mar 07, 2001 at 18:01:59 (GMT)
__ Francesca -:- Elton John is one sick puppy -:- Wed, Mar 07, 2001 at 17:42:56 (GMT)
__ Barry -:- Then Shady.......(OT) -:- Wed, Mar 07, 2001 at 08:19:22 (GMT)
__ janet -:- Eminem and Elton- ok, you win, lets shoot him -:- Wed, Mar 07, 2001 at 05:57:29 (GMT)
__ Dr Dre -:- FA? -:- Wed, Mar 07, 2001 at 05:35:17 (GMT)

G -:- 'Volunteer Participation Opportunities' -:- Wed, Mar 07, 2001 at 01:59:26 (GMT)
__ G -:- Who wants to be a Communication? -:- Wed, Mar 07, 2001 at 05:18:17 (GMT)
__ __ Joe -:- Who WRITES these things? -:- Wed, Mar 07, 2001 at 19:04:14 (GMT)
__ __ __ Flea in Your Ear -:- Who WRITES these things? Tom Hagan NT -:- Wed, Mar 07, 2001 at 19:35:17 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Joe -:- Who WRITES these things? Tom Hagan -:- Wed, Mar 07, 2001 at 19:39:07 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Pat Conlon -:- These premies are the suckers who -:- Wed, Mar 07, 2001 at 19:42:49 (GMT)
__ G -:- another VPO -:- Wed, Mar 07, 2001 at 02:14:27 (GMT)
__ __ Postie -:- another VPO - go G go - hilarious!!!! -:- Wed, Mar 07, 2001 at 16:12:46 (GMT)
__ __ salam -:- another VPO -:- Wed, Mar 07, 2001 at 14:37:30 (GMT)
__ __ __ janet -:- you write at least as well as they do--try -:- Sat, Mar 10, 2001 at 10:00:49 (GMT)
__ __ Marianne -:- Oh Thelma, here's a job for you! -:- Wed, Mar 07, 2001 at 05:08:59 (GMT)
__ __ __ Thelma the Church Lady -:- Marianne - for one minute I thought you and TED -:- Wed, Mar 07, 2001 at 07:38:31 (GMT)
__ __ Brian Smith -:- another VPO. I submit my application for review -:- Wed, Mar 07, 2001 at 03:39:39 (GMT)
__ __ __ salam -:- That is bloody funny. -:- Wed, Mar 07, 2001 at 14:39:54 (GMT)
__ __ __ Dickie Pwickie -:- Brian, if you were really humble, you'd be... -:- Wed, Mar 07, 2001 at 06:43:46 (GMT)
__ __ __ Robyn -:- another VPO. I submit my application for review -:- Wed, Mar 07, 2001 at 04:39:15 (GMT)
__ __ __ janet -:- ROTFLMAO....wood you like this job? -:- Wed, Mar 07, 2001 at 04:18:05 (GMT)
__ __ __ Helen -:- VPO -:- Wed, Mar 07, 2001 at 04:13:22 (GMT)

Mr. P -:- Anything Goes. (OT???) -:- Tues, Mar 06, 2001 at 23:16:22 (GMT)
__ Mr D -:- Anything Goes. (OT???) -:- Tues, Mar 06, 2001 at 23:40:34 (GMT)
__ __ Barry -:- I am the KING of A.G!!!Ask anyone here!(nt) -:- Wed, Mar 07, 2001 at 08:50:47 (GMT)
__ __ __ salam -:- don't lie -:- Wed, Mar 07, 2001 at 14:41:45 (GMT)

Joe -:- My Email To Elan Vital -:- Tues, Mar 06, 2001 at 19:39:27 (GMT)
__ Jim -:- Good one as usual, Joe (nt) -:- Wed, Mar 07, 2001 at 03:25:43 (GMT)
__ Cynthia -:- My Email To Elan Vital -:- Tues, Mar 06, 2001 at 19:52:54 (GMT)
__ __ Roy -:- Excellent letter Joe- polite and to the point. nt -:- Wed, Mar 07, 2001 at 01:38:23 (GMT)
__ __ Susan -:- to Cynthia -:- Tues, Mar 06, 2001 at 20:09:54 (GMT)
__ __ Joe -:- My Email To Elan Vital -:- Tues, Mar 06, 2001 at 20:00:12 (GMT)
__ ITMA -:- My Email To Elan Vital -:- Tues, Mar 06, 2001 at 19:44:54 (GMT)
__ __ Marianne -:- The letters to Abi have legal significance -:- Tues, Mar 06, 2001 at 20:25:07 (GMT)
__ __ Joe -:- Not True -:- Tues, Mar 06, 2001 at 19:49:05 (GMT)
__ __ __ ITMA -:- Not True -:- Tues, Mar 06, 2001 at 23:43:29 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ janet -:- they can swea all they like. no judge, seeing -:- Wed, Mar 07, 2001 at 04:35:25 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Joe -:- Not True -:- Tues, Mar 06, 2001 at 23:49:46 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Jean-Michel -:- Joe ? Where's the australian article? -:- Wed, Mar 07, 2001 at 09:31:59 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Joe -:- It's on EPO -- called 'Kangaroo Hop?' (nt) -:- Wed, Mar 07, 2001 at 18:18:39 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Joe -:- It's 'Kanguru Hop?' --here is relevent part -:- Wed, Mar 07, 2001 at 18:28:55 (GMT)
__ __ __ Pat Conlon -:- Joe, next time I say to you -:- Tues, Mar 06, 2001 at 20:05:19 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Joe -:- Joe, next time I say to you -:- Tues, Mar 06, 2001 at 23:57:07 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Pat Conlon -:- Joe, Queer as Folk - OT -:- Wed, Mar 07, 2001 at 01:21:10 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Joe -:- Joe, Queer as Folk - OT -:- Wed, Mar 07, 2001 at 01:34:54 (GMT)
__ __ __ cq -:- and Dot Proctor was EV's official spokesperson (nt -:- Tues, Mar 06, 2001 at 20:00:21 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Postie -:- Your email hits home -:- Tues, Mar 06, 2001 at 20:14:48 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Joe -:- Excellent Point -:- Tues, Mar 06, 2001 at 20:09:25 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Marianne -:- When litigation hits, rats jump ship -:- Tues, Mar 06, 2001 at 20:30:03 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ cq -:- the fall-guys are always the mahatmas - -:- Tues, Mar 06, 2001 at 20:17:11 (GMT)

cq -:- The common or garden premie - then and now -:- Tues, Mar 06, 2001 at 19:02:50 (GMT)
__ Tonette -:- The common garden vegetable -:- Wed, Mar 07, 2001 at 08:56:10 (GMT)
__ kev -:- The common or garden premie - then and now -:- Tues, Mar 06, 2001 at 23:13:35 (GMT)
__ __ cq -:- The common or garden premie - then and now -:- Wed, Mar 07, 2001 at 19:46:20 (GMT)
__ __ janet -:- welcome kev-welcome to F5 and to your real self -:- Wed, Mar 07, 2001 at 04:43:29 (GMT)
__ __ Joe -:- The common or garden premie - then and now -:- Wed, Mar 07, 2001 at 01:23:53 (GMT)
__ __ __ kev -:- The common or garden premie - then and now -:- Wed, Mar 07, 2001 at 20:02:33 (GMT)
__ __ __ Connie -:- Dear Joe, I mentioned friends also.......nt -:- Wed, Mar 07, 2001 at 14:14:21 (GMT)
__ __ Kelly -:- The common or garden premie - then and now -:- Wed, Mar 07, 2001 at 00:03:26 (GMT)
__ __ __ Pat Conlon -:- The not so common or garden ex-premie -:- Wed, Mar 07, 2001 at 02:19:17 (GMT)
__ __ Connie -:- The common or garden premie - then and now -:- Tues, Mar 06, 2001 at 23:50:45 (GMT)
__ __ __ Pat Conlon -:- The common or garden ex-premie -:- Wed, Mar 07, 2001 at 02:13:23 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Connie -:- The common or garden ex-premie -:- Wed, Mar 07, 2001 at 13:53:45 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Postie -:- Welcome kev and one point about us oldtimers -:- Wed, Mar 07, 2001 at 06:34:30 (GMT)
__ __ Pat Conlon -:- Welcome Kev and thanks for your post -:- Tues, Mar 06, 2001 at 23:25:53 (GMT)
__ Charles S. -:- ''Satsang'' by new premies now... -:- Tues, Mar 06, 2001 at 20:21:50 (GMT)
__ __ such -:- like co-dependents of the reinvented 'New Nixon'nt -:- Tues, Mar 06, 2001 at 22:51:55 (GMT)

AJW -:- I'm going on holiday for a few days. (nt) -:- Tues, Mar 06, 2001 at 18:54:18 (GMT)
__ Sandy -:- Come to beautiful New Jersey -:- Tues, Mar 06, 2001 at 23:20:50 (GMT)
__ __ Robyn -:- Come to beautiful New Jersey -:- Wed, Mar 07, 2001 at 20:28:33 (GMT)
__ __ __ Sandy -:- Come to beautiful New Jersey -:- Wed, Mar 07, 2001 at 22:06:22 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Robyn -:- Come to beautiful New Jersey -:- Wed, Mar 07, 2001 at 23:52:49 (GMT)
__ __ AJW -:- One day -:- Wed, Mar 07, 2001 at 15:20:11 (GMT)
__ __ Helen -:- LOL, Sandy (nt) -:- Wed, Mar 07, 2001 at 03:49:42 (GMT)
__ Steve Quint -:- Come To The Colonies -:- Tues, Mar 06, 2001 at 22:25:14 (GMT)
__ Marianne -:- Hiding due to All God's Children? -:- Tues, Mar 06, 2001 at 21:06:10 (GMT)
__ __ AJW -:- Isn't it about time... -:- Wed, Mar 07, 2001 at 15:21:32 (GMT)
__ __ bill -:- 6 hour time dif. from EST right?..nt -:- Wed, Mar 07, 2001 at 05:56:03 (GMT)
__ __ __ Marianne -:- You're 5 hours behind in EST - nt -:- Wed, Mar 07, 2001 at 08:17:45 (GMT)
__ __ Postie -:- You're not heading to Sicily are you? -:- Tues, Mar 06, 2001 at 23:59:20 (GMT)
__ __ __ AJW -:- You can run but you can't hide Postie (nt) -:- Wed, Mar 07, 2001 at 15:22:55 (GMT)

Postie -:- Editorial from 'All God's Children' -:- Tues, Mar 06, 2001 at 17:02:42 (GMT)
__ Susan -:- poor Anth...is it true???? -:- Tues, Mar 06, 2001 at 18:17:03 (GMT)
__ __ Pat Conlon -:- Be kind to PWKs - we all were premies once -:- Tues, Mar 06, 2001 at 19:32:51 (GMT)
__ __ __ suchabanana -:- that's right, Pat (nt -:- Tues, Mar 06, 2001 at 22:55:39 (GMT)
__ __ AJW -:- Susan...I...can't.. -:- Tues, Mar 06, 2001 at 18:31:21 (GMT)
__ AJW -:- Postie, you bastard. -:- Tues, Mar 06, 2001 at 17:41:50 (GMT)
__ __ Kelly -:- I've got one from 1977..How much Anth? -:- Tues, Mar 06, 2001 at 18:00:41 (GMT)
__ __ __ AJW -:- FA Help or I'll sue. -:- Tues, Mar 06, 2001 at 18:06:45 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Forum Admin -:- Sue and be damned -:- Tues, Mar 06, 2001 at 18:26:56 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Postie -:- FA: Are you threatening me? -:- Tues, Mar 06, 2001 at 18:56:45 (GMT)
__ __ Postie -:- AJW, so I can kiss the 10,000 Euros goodbye? (nt) -:- Tues, Mar 06, 2001 at 17:57:18 (GMT)
__ __ __ AJW -:- Yup. I spent it on a hitman. (nt) -:- Tues, Mar 06, 2001 at 18:01:49 (GMT)
__ Disculta -:- 'We can relax' -:- Tues, Mar 06, 2001 at 17:24:05 (GMT)
__ __ Tonette -:- Mind-Body Connection ot -:- Wed, Mar 07, 2001 at 09:03:22 (GMT)
__ __ Postie -:- 'We can relax' - YES!!!!!!!!! -:- Wed, Mar 07, 2001 at 00:44:09 (GMT)
__ __ Way -:- Old satsang letters -:- Tues, Mar 06, 2001 at 18:23:39 (GMT)
__ __ __ AJW -:- Old satsang letters -:- Tues, Mar 06, 2001 at 19:26:00 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Kelly -:- It's worse than you can imagine! nt -:- Tues, Mar 06, 2001 at 22:15:25 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Pat Conlon -:- Letters: I'll show you mine if you show me yours -:- Tues, Mar 06, 2001 at 19:56:39 (GMT)

gerry -:- It's Time, Elan Vital, In Fact it's Past Time -:- Tues, Mar 06, 2001 at 16:09:55 (GMT)
__ AJW -:- It's Time, Elan Vital, In Fact it's Past Time -:- Tues, Mar 06, 2001 at 18:28:18 (GMT)
__ __ Susan -:- Amen, Gerry and Anth. Well said both of you. (nt) -:- Tues, Mar 06, 2001 at 18:37:50 (GMT)

Abi -:- Letters from DLM, '78 and '81 -:- Tues, Mar 06, 2001 at 14:43:41 (GMT)
__ Helen -:- Letters from DLM, '78 and '81 -:- Wed, Mar 07, 2001 at 03:58:12 (GMT)
__ __ Abi -:- Letters from DLM, '78 and '81 -:- Wed, Mar 07, 2001 at 04:27:22 (GMT)
__ __ __ Helen -:- Letters from DLM, '78 and '81 -:- Wed, Mar 07, 2001 at 22:14:53 (GMT)
__ Bin Liner -:- What a hard hearted fucker..... -:- Wed, Mar 07, 2001 at 00:36:45 (GMT)
__ Kelly -:- Sympathy and support, I'm with you. -:- Tues, Mar 06, 2001 at 22:11:23 (GMT)
__ __ Abi -:- Sympathy and support, I'm with you. -:- Wed, Mar 07, 2001 at 03:31:21 (GMT)
__ __ __ Kelly -:- Sympathy and support, I'm with you. -:- Wed, Mar 07, 2001 at 08:58:50 (GMT)
__ Been There -:- Dot's Drivel -:- Tues, Mar 06, 2001 at 20:04:12 (GMT)
__ Cynthia -:- I'm Outraged and Saddened by this... -:- Tues, Mar 06, 2001 at 19:34:58 (GMT)
__ __ Abi -:- I'm Outraged and Saddened by this... -:- Wed, Mar 07, 2001 at 03:42:22 (GMT)
__ __ Cynthia -:- P.S. To Abi and Susan... -:- Tues, Mar 06, 2001 at 19:43:34 (GMT)
__ Pat Conlon -:- Thank you Abi for some naked raw truth -:- Tues, Mar 06, 2001 at 19:16:28 (GMT)
__ Joe -:- Dot Proctor/Message to Elan Vital -:- Tues, Mar 06, 2001 at 18:52:43 (GMT)
__ __ la-ex -:- Dot Proctor married Mark Bergeron,lives in DC.nt -:- Tues, Mar 06, 2001 at 19:11:07 (GMT)
__ __ __ Joe -:- I wonder what Dot would say about this now? -:- Wed, Mar 07, 2001 at 19:36:31 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ la-ex -:- Joe,Re:I wonder what Dot would say about this now? -:- Thurs, Mar 08, 2001 at 04:03:17 (GMT)
__ AJW -:- Letters from DLM, '78 and '81 -:- Tues, Mar 06, 2001 at 17:20:04 (GMT)
__ __ Abi -:- Letters from DLM, '78 and '81 -:- Wed, Mar 07, 2001 at 04:41:39 (GMT)
__ Brian -:- Thank you, Abi -:- Tues, Mar 06, 2001 at 16:58:00 (GMT)
__ Jean-Michel -:- Do you agree adding this to the Jagdeo file -:- Tues, Mar 06, 2001 at 15:38:16 (GMT)
__ __ Susan -:- an idea JM and my OUTRAGE -:- Tues, Mar 06, 2001 at 18:04:38 (GMT)
__ __ __ Abi -:- an idea JM and my OUTRAGE -:- Wed, Mar 07, 2001 at 04:05:14 (GMT)
__ __ __ la-ex -:- Shouldn't these Child issues be reported to... -:- Wed, Mar 07, 2001 at 03:53:44 (GMT)
__ __ __ cq -:- How to say it? Bravo? Kudos? Well said? Not enough -:- Tues, Mar 06, 2001 at 19:58:30 (GMT)
__ __ Postie -:- Abi, thanks for sharing that -:- Tues, Mar 06, 2001 at 17:53:42 (GMT)
__ __ __ Disculta -:- Accountability is unavoidable -:- Wed, Mar 07, 2001 at 00:45:30 (GMT)


Date: Wed, Mar 07, 2001 at 08:27:49 (GMT)
From: Abi
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: Letter from Sally Reeder '78
Message:
Hi
I just found a nauseating letter from Reeder. Here it is.

Divine Light Mission International Headquarters
511 16th street
Post Office Box 532
Denver, Colorado 80201 United States of America
(303) 623-8280

a pompous insignia of a swan etc under which appears in bold
GURU MAHARAJ JI
SPIRITUAL DIRECTOR

Executive Office

14 October 1978

Dear Abi,
Jai Satchitanand! Guru Maharaj Ji received your wonderful letter and has asked me to write to you for Him. It makes me so happy to be able to send you this little message of His love.

Guru Maharaj Ji loves us all so very much! He loves us so much that He created the moon and the sun to dance around the earth, and the flowers and the grasses and trees to laugh in the wind, and the little bugs to chase each other in play, and the birds to sing, and the mountains to protect the valleys, and the streams to flow to the ocean in joy! And then, He put us all here, to learn how to love Him, and how to please Him in caring for this earth and for each other, and then... He even came Himself to be with us, to speak with us, and to laugh with us. And now that Guru Maharaj Ji is giving us this precious gift of Knowledge, we can really, really know Him, and love Him! When we meditate, we are getting to know what is the most real thing in all of life, and that is love. And then, when we share satsang, we share that love with each other, and then we can begin to do beautiful and wonderful things for each other and for our Guru Maharaj Ji, too.

And so, I hope that you continue on and on loving Him, because it always gets more wonderful!

In this letter is a picture of Guru Maharaj Ji holding Hansi in His arms. I hope you like it!

Much love from your sister,

[a smiling face done in dark blue felt pen]

Sally Reeder.

END

So Captain Rawat actually created the entire world but also the moon and the sun and maybe the universe too. He is God or the Lord of the Universe. What a load of spooky fundamentalist crap.

Too sad.

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Date: Fri, Mar 09, 2001 at 06:04:41 (GMT)
From: Babs
Email: ralphie@ralphiescafe.com
To: Abi
Subject: Look what I found!
Message:
Same vintage, 1978; same author.
Written on the occasion of Maharaji and Marolyn's wedding anniversary by Sally Reeder:

'My love for Guru Maharaj Ji is deeper than the ocean.
It's more than the bird feels for the sky
and more than a mother feels for her baby.

It's the love that I have for the One who dreamt of me
and created me and is sustaining me
and giving me all the hope I could ever want
for a beautiful life.

It's the love you have for someone who is giving you
gifts all the time, gifts which are perfect
and which are exactly what you need at that moment,
not just to live, but to really, really live,
to live in love and to know that this whole life
is an incredible creation,
and you are in the center of it.

I love Him more than I could ever, ever say.
I love Him more than I ever loved anyone.
And I know that His love for me
is infinitely greater than that.
So, all I can hope to do is just open to His love...'

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Date: Wed, Mar 07, 2001 at 17:33:44 (GMT)
From: Francesca
Email: None
To: Abi
Subject: ABI -- 5 stars!!
Message:
No matter what excuse there is for the brainwashed state of poor Sally (there are moments when I might have been capable of writing such tripe -- though perhaps not in response to your particular letter)

THE POINT IS

--this is evidence of the culture of the cult (petri dish??), the warm fuzzy rock upon which Rawat built his church

AND

anyone who comes to this site and reads our posts and thinks were are a bunch of old fogeys from the 70s and 80s and things are 'different now' needs to take a deep breath and realize the state of denial they are in.

Thanks for taking the time. Brilliant!

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Date: Wed, Mar 07, 2001 at 14:09:59 (GMT)
From: D_Thomas
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: Does any one know the process
Message:
through which letters were received by Maharaji and were answered by Sally Reeder or others?

I wrote quite a few letters to Maharaji. It was always a joy to receive a letter back from Sally. At least it indicated that my letter did get through and wasn't just swallowed up by a black hole some place.

On the other hand her satsangs didn't really relate to specific questions I was asking. It seemed like it was just general purpose satsang. Then there was usually 'boiler plate' satsang from Maharaji in the middle, but that didn't usually relate to my specific concerns either.

Don't get me wrong. She put a lot of effort into these letters. I was grateful that someone was concerned enough to at least reply. So I don't want to trash Sally Reeder.

Did Maharaji ever read his letters? Were they even placed in front of him so he could read them if he wished? Did Sally ever read those letters or was she just given names and addresses of people to reply to? What determined which letters were replied to and which ones were not?

David

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Date: Wed, Mar 07, 2001 at 18:42:18 (GMT)
From: Joe
Email: None
To: D_Thomas
Subject: Does any one know the process
Message:
One or more premie at ELan Vital (formerly DLM) headquarters had the 'service' of answering letters written to Maharaji. The letters were sent to Denver or Miami and Maharaji didn't see them, or if he did it was rare. I think letters written to Malibu were packed up and sent to be answered by the same premies.

When I was at IHQ, Dot first had the 'service' to answer letters and then Sally Reeder did, and I think they might have actually done it at the same time for awhile. Neither Sally or Dot had any authority to give any advice, but then there wasn't any 'advice' to give in the cult, the answer to everything was satsang, and service, and meditation, and in 1978, recognizing Maharaji as the Lord God of Creation and loving him. To hell with everything else.

On the other hand her satsangs didn't really relate to specific questions I was asking. It seemed like it was just general purpose satsang. Then there was usually 'boiler plate' satsang from Maharaji in the middle, but that didn't usually relate to my specific concerns either.

Don't get me wrong. She put a lot of effort into these letters. I was grateful that someone was concerned enough to at least reply. So I don't want to trash Sally Reeder.

Really, how difficult could it be to write 'boilerplate' satsang? I think the letters were handwritten, though, and if they weren't I don't think we had word processors back then, so Sally really did have to write the same crap over and over.

Like I said below, Sally needed a good slapping and pointless root canal surgeries to get ride of her terminal sweetness. It was lethal and should be classified as a weapon of mass destruction. ::))

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Date: Wed, Mar 07, 2001 at 21:50:41 (GMT)
From: Cynthia
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: When I was in DLM Headquarters in Miami...
Message:
after the DECA project was over for me, I spent quite a few evenings in an office in the Broadripple, which had a few word processors. That small office was for working overtime (right) and often Dot and/or Sally were there when I was at night.

To my knowledge none of the letters were shown to Maharaji, and all were typed on word processing machines, which I shared with them.

The letters file was always locked tight. Never left out for viewing by anyone but Sally or Dot.

I never received any handwritten responses from 1977 through 1979 when I was writing letters to M.

As far as what they said, it was plain old satsang cult talk, that's all. Boiler plate: surrender, love M, do SS&M, etc., ad naseum.

Love,
Cynthia

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Date: Wed, Mar 07, 2001 at 22:00:14 (GMT)
From: Joe
Email: None
To: Cynthia
Subject: Right, that was my recollection as well.
Message:
In early 1979, the DLM Headquarters moved from Denver to Miami Beach. At first, it was in the Broadripple Hotel, and then to an office building on Alton Road. One of my first 'services' after I got sent to Miami from Chicago in May, 1979, was to search for a new office building for DLM, and I found that Alton Road office around that time, where everyone moved. After I was community coordinator in Miami, I also had an office there.

Dot and Sally wrote those letters, although I didn't recall they used word processors. For some reason, I thought they wrote them out by hand, but I might be wrong about that. Actually, that sounds kind of not possible. So, all the more reason they could have just reprinted that drivel into letter after letter.

The ideology was, that because Dot and Sally had that service, they had the 'grace' to be instruments for the all-powerful Maharaji to give each person the 'perfect' response letter with exactly what they needed to hear, no matter how inappropriate it might have seemed to our evil minds.

Did you work with Michael Black at DECA? Where you in the old location before they moved to the big complex in Hialeah?

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Date: Thurs, Mar 08, 2001 at 20:46:19 (GMT)
From: D_Thomas
Email: None
To: Joe Cynthia
Subject: Letters
Message:
Joe, Cynthia,

Thanks for your information. You might not have been close enough to the actual operation to tell if M really read the letters or not. Since about early 80's I didn't get any more replies to my letters. Although I've heard of aspirants being encouraged to write letters to M.

Relatively recently, I heard M say in satsang, something like:

'You know, we receive letters from some premies, when you read them all you can think is 'poor premies!' '

You may or may not think he is lying, but on face value it sounds like he at least reads some of them. But I distinctly heard him use the word 'we'. Does that mean him and Marolyn? him and his staff?

David

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Date: Thurs, Mar 08, 2001 at 21:04:26 (GMT)
From: Postie
Email: None
To: D_Thomas
Subject: Background info on The Letters
Message:
I was at IHQ Denver until it moved to Miami in 1979. Firstly, the letter writers sat in a secretarial pool in an inner suite connected to M's office. They did use word processors of the day and did have 'boiler plate' satsang to insert in each letter. Your post jarred my memory but I seem to remember the 'Sisters of Mercy' who wrote the letters would compile a list for Maharaji that summarized the number of letters received by category. For example:

44 - Gratitude
66 - Problem with Knowledge practice
22 - Want to dedicate more
18 - Invitation to come to country
4,268 - Psychological problem / special case
48 - Devotional
etc.

Each letter would be specially constructed using canned satsang blurbs addressing each of the categories.

I could be having a false memory or senior moment but this seems right. Dot, is this how you recall it?

Postie

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Date: Wed, Mar 07, 2001 at 11:37:21 (GMT)
From: Jean-Michel
Email: None
To: Abi
Subject: Sally's now French!!
Message:
Lives in Paris, married to a nice French PWK ...

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Date: Wed, Mar 07, 2001 at 10:08:42 (GMT)
From: Abi
Email: None
To: everyone
Subject: All Satguru's children must be
Message:
Hi,
I almost wish I hadn't gone through my old files - there's so much freaky stuff there. But I wanted to share the lyrics from the 'All Satguru's little children...' which I have in my copy of the Guru Puja 73 songbook. And what a creepy little book that is.

Chorus:
All satguru's little children must be
Shining like dew-drops on the leaves of a tree
Reflecting His love so perfectly
That the rest of the world can see His majesty
Yes the rest of the world can see His majesty

So's we can achieve this without consternation
We must ensure we don't neglect our meditation
Then we will find that His magic radiation
Will stream through our bodies to the rest of the nation
Yes will stream through our bodies to the rest of the nation

Chorus

The best way to help our sweet Lord with His plans
Is to forget all our own and obey His commands
Do service all day and all night if you can
And soon you will stand in the palm of His hand
Yes soon we'll all stand in the palm of His hand

Chorus

Underneath that are three photos of Rawat patting a little boy on the head. The boy is about four years old.

I just can't believe how authoritarian that song is.

That's it. I'm off. This is all a bit too much! I need a holiday.

Abi

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Date: Wed, Mar 07, 2001 at 15:34:59 (GMT)
From: Disculta
Email: None
To: Abi
Subject: Damn... there it is...
Message:
That line that was emblazoned in me brain:

'Do service all day and all night if you can'

Take note all ye CFS dudes and babes.

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Date: Wed, Mar 07, 2001 at 17:07:36 (GMT)
From: Postie
Email: None
To: Abi
Subject: In fairness to Sally, Dot and the letter writers
Message:
This letter to the editor published in 1979 issue of 'All God's Children' should give a little perspective to the shared beliefs of that time.

Dear editor,
Jai Satchitanand,

blah, blah, blah .....
Like we are all married to Guru Maharaj Ji, who can give us more love, more satisfaction than our Lord? We don't need husbands and families to practise Knowledge, to find happiness. Maybe at first we think we do, but I'm just finding that the only purpose is to bring up children for Guru Maharaj Ji, the only reason I have a family is that He has given me this service. Really, it's so beautiful to serve Him - in this way, or to be His Bride and serve Him in an 'all the way' situation, in an ashram, are two ways in which we can dedicate our bodies to Him.

Venetia

Bride? All the way? Dedicate our bodies? I wonder what Dr. Kasserola would say about this.

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Date: Wed, Mar 07, 2001 at 18:46:07 (GMT)
From: Suzanne
Email: None
To: Postie
Subject: I would never let Venetia alone with my kids...
Message:
Digusting.
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Date: Wed, Mar 07, 2001 at 08:24:29 (GMT)
From: Barry
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: Anyone who recieved Jim's mp3! OT
Message:
Isn't it fucken cool or what? Any further input? The project is going great. I am producing - How am I doing?
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Date: Tues, Mar 13, 2001 at 16:03:50 (GMT)
From: Cynthia
Email: None
To: Barry/Jim
Subject: I think it's super cool! More please...nt
Message:
nt
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Date: Wed, Mar 07, 2001 at 16:01:43 (GMT)
From: Postie
Email: post@rmi.net
To: Barry
Subject: Barry, send me one of Jim's mp3's
Message:
Lookin' forward to a trip-ass track!

Postie
P.S.: Should I be stoned to listen to it?

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Date: Wed, Mar 07, 2001 at 15:48:06 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Barry
Subject: Barry, this isn't doing me any favours
Message:
Sorry, Bar, but this is not doing me any favours right now. I'll explain why this aft. I'll try to call you around lunch or something or try me at the office around 1:00 if you can. Thanks.
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Date: Wed, Mar 07, 2001 at 14:34:46 (GMT)
From: salam
Email: None
To: Barry
Subject: are you some kind of agent for Jim or somethin?
Message:
sorry about the NT.
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Date: Wed, Mar 07, 2001 at 21:28:43 (GMT)
From: Barry
Email: None
To: salam
Subject: Are you some kind of gruff jerk! or somethin?
Message:
Sorry for liven! Salam you always do this shit!
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Date: Thurs, Mar 08, 2001 at 00:00:57 (GMT)
From: salam
Email: None
To: Barry
Subject: The reason I asked is
Message:
Am thinking of starting a condom bussiness, and am looking for agents. So Maybe we can promote it by including a Condom with each CD you selling, what you recon?
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Date: Wed, Mar 07, 2001 at 10:16:48 (GMT)
From: Jethro
Email: None
To: Barry
Subject: It IS cool (nt)
Message:
nt
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Date: Wed, Mar 07, 2001 at 08:39:26 (GMT)
From: Pat Conlon
Email: None
To: Barry
Subject: I didn't recieve Jim's mp3! OT
Message:
My email account bounced it because it was too big and, as I told him, I'm not enough of a geek to solve the problem.

Barry, Francesca has uploaded her music to an e-group so her friends can listen to it and she has been nagging you to do that with Jim's music. Any chance of putting it online for us non-geeks?

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Date: Wed, Mar 07, 2001 at 08:48:13 (GMT)
From: Barry
Email: None
To: Pat Conlon
Subject: Pat my boy! I don't see why not! OT
Message:
My own hot mail bumped it too! Fucken weak ass mail servers!
Anyhow, Ya! I'll ask Jim. If Fran has a site or what not to put it on, great! Then all us geeks can download it onto are own hard drives. Good plan Pat. How are ya man? Me? music stuff, promotional, and production stuff. Lots of my own band stuff as well. Real busy. Kind-a bored with the premie thing a bit, so thats why I haven't been around, but you probably figured that out on your own. Anyhow, chat with you later, after I talk to James about this mp3/site thing? Hey Fran? How does this work??
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Date: Wed, Mar 07, 2001 at 17:39:29 (GMT)
From: Francesca
Email: notinherent@yahoo.com
To: Barry
Subject: A little info
Message:
Of course the place where I put my music was shut down, but through winamp there is something called myplay locker and you can upload music for your friends.

Of course these dot coms close down right and left. One place I've found although I've been too busy to do anything about it (uploading) is www.myplay.com

You may want to read the fine print. Although you retain intellectual property rights (i.e. your copyright) there is a remote possibility they could still make it song of the week and let everyone on the planet download it. Like a stuggling artist would care about that, right??

You will have to read up on it and see how to give people access to the songs. If you need help let me know. I'm available for that on a very limited basis these days.

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Date: Wed, Mar 07, 2001 at 09:01:30 (GMT)
From: Pat Conlon
Email: None
To: Barry
Subject: Thanks, Barry OT
Message:
Glad to hear you're busy and having fun. If Francesca does not see this post I'll ask her about it. With an e-group only those with a password can get in but if you just put it on a site like geocities there's no need and that's easy. Even non-geeks can do that. I've put a bunch of sites there. All you need is an index page and then put the MP3 on it.

Yes, I guessed you had realized that the premie stuff was only interesting to those who had lived through it. I think you mostly picked up on the uncommon candour and lack of tolerance for any BS as well as the fact that many exes are very interesting people.

I wish you health, prosperity and happiness.

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Date: Wed, Mar 07, 2001 at 05:34:53 (GMT)
From: Disculta
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: Forum 5 wins an Oscar
Message:
I have it on good authority that F5 is heavily buzzed for an Oscar nomination for best, most intelligent, funny and heartfelt internet forum about cult exiting. It was formerly close to nomination in the intensely violent Pulp Fiction-type category, but is now showing promise in the newly honored comedy category.

Especially emphasized is how funny it's becoming. It's quite difficult not to pop in every day between my other computer work, when I need a larf, so as a member of the academy, I'm nominating y'all.

Thanks for letting your beingness merge into silliness.

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Date: Thurs, Mar 08, 2001 at 00:18:17 (GMT)
From: salam
Email: None
To: Disculta
Subject: Thank you..nt
Message:
nt
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Date: Wed, Mar 07, 2001 at 06:07:44 (GMT)
From: janet in hollywood
Email: None
To: Disculta
Subject: for best documentary
Message:
you like me! you really, really like me! my lifelong drama and suffering and toiling in obscurity has not been in vain! at last i know I'm being recognized! thank you. thank you all, so much....{ cue up thundrous applause and acclaim sounds}
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Date: Wed, Mar 07, 2001 at 05:47:47 (GMT)
From: Roy
Email: None
To: Disculta
Subject: Love to you - Thanks to the academy nt
Message:
i
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Date: Wed, Mar 07, 2001 at 07:07:55 (GMT)
From: Dickie Pwickie
Email: None
To: Disculta
Subject: First of all I'd like to thank The Speaker...
Message:
... without who's enigmatic, autodidactic, and can I say it here, Masterful guidance has made me what I am today. These days I am so very grateful to have the amazing opportunity to hand out Special Hermetically Sealed and Sanitized for the Aspirant's Protection Extra Special Élan Vital Propogation Packets that He actually asked for.

It hasn't been easy getting this far. The day I joined in scared, I mean sacred contract with, er The Speaker of all Speakers, I'll admit I was terrified. I'd heard stories about what it meant to totally surrender but the neutering process was fairly painless. Afterwards I got a Millenium bar and a special letter from Dot Proctor and even a photo of The Speaker driving his Maserati Bora.

I want to thank you all in gratefully synchronized synchronicity . . . say wha? I wasn't nominated? It was Pauline Premie and Thelma and E. Winsdor who were nominated? Those showboating bitches - I'll show them who's got balls, er well, I mean who's got more understanding. Hey, let go of me, I AM leaving...........................

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Date: Thurs, Mar 08, 2001 at 19:38:13 (GMT)
From: Luke Pewk
Email: None
To: Dickie Pwickie
Subject: You should be ashamed of yourself, Dickie
Message:
As the spokesperson for the synchronized and co-ordinated nexus team in your community, I am shocked to find that you are posting here among these nasty people who only know one thing - how to indulge in their MINDS and their arrogant ingratitude for this precious gift of life and spit in the face of the one who gave this gift of reminding us to breathe.

You know that you would have forgotten how to breathe 30 years ago if it were not for the kindness and mercy of the living Master. You would be floundering at the bottom of your fish-tank of maya gasping for air if it were not for Knowledge which as you know is now synchronizedly known as knowledge of self and not knowledge of god but you should still be showing your gratitude all the same.

PS Why did you last check to the nexus team bounce?

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Date: Thurs, Mar 08, 2001 at 20:18:49 (GMT)
From: Dickie Pwickie
Email: None
To: Luke Pewk
Subject: Only The Speaker can shame me, Luke
Message:
And he does every chance he gets. Only He knows just how shameful I am and only He can truly shame me in the most enigmatic way. In fact, since He is the ultimate autodidact (self-taught) person to ever walk the planet or other planets for that matter, He is the only one that really knows anything about what I need. And He surely must have read about shame somewhere or maybe Dr Kassorla told him about it but, anyway He definitely knows how to shame me big time. He's a Master at it, for sure and you're not.

Besides, if you were doing #'s 1-4, you wouldn't be lurking here anyway. If I see you in Portland, don't expect me to make full eye contact or anything. I'll just walk by, head slightly bowed with that smirky grin because I know He pushes me in THAT inner swing during #4 much harder than He pushes you.

OK, I'll tell you why I hang out here with these whiny losers. Honestly man, I figure these guys aren't so bad, really. Just a little confused is all. Once they get this Indian concept aggravated anger phase over with and open up their hearts, The Speaker will again dance on the stage of their devotion in his brand new Bijan suit while his babe-ilicious daughters sing that reggae 'Get Up, Get Up and Dance' song. I'm here as a kind of ambassador for The Speaker and I'll be here to pick up the pieces when they surrender again.

The check is in the mail,
Dickie Pwickie

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Date: Wed, Mar 07, 2001 at 08:01:04 (GMT)
From: The Thunderstealing Bitch
Email: None
To: Dickie Pwickie
Subject: Actually I must bow to Brian Smith's tour de force
Message:
His application to participate gratefully as a sychronized white-cloth-covered church lady table for Elan Vital takes the cake in today's line up for the best comedy nomination.

Oh my god, my mother and Readers' Digest were right all along: Laughter is indeed the best medicine. So, laugh Disculta and shake the flu blues away.

There once was a guru from Hardwar
Who claimed he was greater than God, far
Mightier than Krishna or Rama
And above all trivial karma,
But his stocks and bonds
and his bevy of blondes
Couldn't save him from his fate as lentil porridge
When he was run over by his own Auto-Knowledge.

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Date: Wed, Mar 07, 2001 at 16:28:58 (GMT)
From: Postie
Email: None
To: The Thunderstealing Bitch
Subject: Brian Smith's tour de force - I agree - brilliant
Message:
I Laughed, I Cried. Two Thumbs Way Up. 5 Stars. Must Read. **Best of Forum**. A Freakin' Triumph!

But Brian really should be careful about sharing ideas like that. As Pat Conlon told Michael Dettmers recently, Maharaji's Elan Vital lurkers will steal Brian's idea and next thing you know the wealthy Republican PWKS's will be buying Knowledge logo tattooed human furniture at the divine mall. Brian the Table, Chas the Chaise, LuLu the Lamp, Monica the Mattress, the possibilities are endless.

Postie

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Date: Wed, Mar 07, 2001 at 04:18:19 (GMT)
From: Abi
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: Need help with tracking down DLM kids
Message:
Does anyone know the following people or how to contact them?

Julia Pickett who lived in Exeter, UK in 1981. Gorgeous girl, black curly hair.

Atul Patel who lived at Pacific Coast Hwy, Long Beach, California in 1980.

Anjah Sagar who lived at Camden Town, London in 1980.

Danielle Butler who lived in Crafthole, Cornwall in early 80s Mother is called Judy. Step-father is Ken Butler. I think they live in Kent now.

thanks

Abi

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Date: Wed, Mar 07, 2001 at 09:17:31 (GMT)
From: Forum Admin
Email: None
To: Abi
Subject: Need help with tracking down DLM kids
Message:
Abi,

Can you confirm that none of these are current addresses? I am assuming they are not current otherwise you wouldn´t be asking their whereabouts.

As I´m sure you know it´s against forum guidelines to post current addresses or phone numbers of anyone without their agreement.

Forum Admin

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Date: Wed, Mar 07, 2001 at 09:50:25 (GMT)
From: Abi
Email: None
To: Forum Admin
Subject: Need help with tracking down DLM kids
Message:
Woops! Look I don't know that they aren't current. I stupidly assumed otherwise. This was 20 years ago and their parents probably moved a lot. I assume the boy from California left the motel, that the others moved on too. Maybe you should delete my message and I'll try tracking them down myself. How about that?
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Date: Wed, Mar 07, 2001 at 17:05:08 (GMT)
From: Nigel
Email: nigel@redcrow.demon.co.uk
To: Abi
Subject: Suggest FA keeps towns but removes street etc (nt)
Message:
nt
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Date: Wed, Mar 07, 2001 at 08:21:39 (GMT)
From: Jean-Michel
Email: None
To: Abi
Subject: I have old pictures and article
Message:
in old Div Times, maybe I could email this to you ?
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Date: Wed, Mar 07, 2001 at 08:28:58 (GMT)
From: Abi
Email: None
To: Jean-Michel
Subject: I have old pictures and article
Message:
Dear Jean-Michel,
that would be very helpful. Thanks for that.

Abi

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Date: Wed, Mar 07, 2001 at 04:17:08 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: Eminem and Elton John -- aftermath (OT)
Message:
From the Onion, a National Newspaper:

Eminem Releases Single About Hugging Elton John At Grammys Then Ripping His Dick Off With Pliers

LOS ANGELES-- With the nation still buzzing over his Feb. 21 Grammy Awards duet with Elton John, Eminem released a single Tuesday inspired by the performance. Among the song's lyrics: 'I was at the Grammys and Elton John gave me a hug / So I got out my pliers and ripped his little faggot dick off with a tug / Shoved it down the throats of Britney, then Christina A. / Probably gave both of the bitches AIDS.' John praised the song as 'brave' and 'coming from a very pure place.'

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Date: Wed, Mar 07, 2001 at 18:31:44 (GMT)
From: Joe
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Very Funny -- Love the Onion)
Message:
By the way, this is SATIRE, this is NOT REAL, just in case anyone didn't know.
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Date: Wed, Mar 07, 2001 at 21:15:43 (GMT)
From: Lurker #27
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: SATIRE? Chariist it had me fooled!!!! (NT)
Message:
nt
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Date: Wed, Mar 07, 2001 at 19:04:39 (GMT)
From: Nigel
Email: nigel@redcrow.demon.co.uk
To: Joe
Subject: At the risk of sounding Freudian...
Message:
Doesn't anyone else think Eminem has a pretty-boy campness about him?

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Date: Wed, Mar 07, 2001 at 19:38:22 (GMT)
From: Thelma
Email: None
To: Nigel
Subject: Nigel, Eminem is what us old fags used to call
Message:
TBH - to be had or ''trade.'' Methinks the lady doth protest too much.
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Date: Wed, Mar 07, 2001 at 19:40:19 (GMT)
From: Joe
Email: None
To: Thelma
Subject: Do you think he's 'strictly' trade? *(nt)
Message:
nt
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Date: Wed, Mar 07, 2001 at 19:49:22 (GMT)
From: Thelma
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: Do you think he's 'strictly' trade? Let's find out
Message:
We could tie him up for a weekend and give him some XTC. Except I'm not mad about that bleached hair and the mall-rat personality.
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Date: Wed, Mar 07, 2001 at 19:26:27 (GMT)
From: Joe
Email: None
To: Nigel
Subject: Oh, so what you are saying
Message:
is that Eminen, might be gay bashing because of repressed homosexuality. But that means you think Eminem might be gay because being a 'pretty boy' and having 'campness' meet your stereotypes of what a gay person is like. Is that correct? Nigel, you may be digging yourself into a corner here. :))
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Date: Wed, Mar 07, 2001 at 19:55:31 (GMT)
From: Nigel
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: Oh, so what you are saying
Message:
Ok, campness ain't necessarily gay, nor obviously is campness requisite to be gay and, ok, maybe easy stereotyping is best avoided - but wouldn't Eminem therefore avoid such stereotypes by making his stage persona a bit more macho and brutish?

Hmm, maybe I should stop digging now;)

Never did think much of Freud, anyway...

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Date: Wed, Mar 07, 2001 at 19:07:17 (GMT)
From: Joe
Email: None
To: Nigel
Subject: Don't you mean at the risk of sounding GAY? (nt)
Message:
nt
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Date: Wed, Mar 07, 2001 at 19:20:12 (GMT)
From: Nigel
Email: nigel@redcrow.demon.co.uk
To: Joe
Subject: Who me? - Good grief!
Message:
Just thinking of reasons to explain Eminem's irrational gay-bashing, that's all. (Or is it 'takes one to tell one'? Hmm..)
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Date: Wed, Mar 07, 2001 at 18:01:59 (GMT)
From: Lurker #27
Email: None
To: All
Subject: Elton John said the song was 'brave' . . . .
Message:
and 'coming from a very pure place!'

Hey, maybe Eminem is a PREMIE! Wow! Think of the possibilities for propagation!!!!

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Date: Wed, Mar 07, 2001 at 17:42:56 (GMT)
From: Francesca
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Elton John is one sick puppy
Message:
Perhaps he enjoys the abuse. What a rotten spokesman for the gay community.
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Date: Wed, Mar 07, 2001 at 08:19:22 (GMT)
From: Barry
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Then Shady.......(OT)
Message:
invited the weeny-less Elton back to his hotel room, dressed him in garters and a bra, and fucked him in the ass! Since now it was genderly, and politically safe to do so! Ha Ha Ha Ha!
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Date: Wed, Mar 07, 2001 at 05:57:29 (GMT)
From: janet
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Eminem and Elton- ok, you win, lets shoot him
Message:
will that be enough?
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Date: Wed, Mar 07, 2001 at 05:35:17 (GMT)
From: Dr Dre
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: FA?
Message:
fgjgj
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Date: Wed, Mar 07, 2001 at 01:59:26 (GMT)
From: G
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: 'Volunteer Participation Opportunities'
Message:
From the EV Participation web page:

(I added comments in parentheses)

The list of 'Volunteer Participation Opportunities' (unpaid slave labor tasks) starts with three VPOs in Malibu, California, where 'Maharaji' just so happens to live. A little manipulation?

Here's a VPO:

Job# POP018
Functional Area- Event Team
Job Title Event- Facilities Manager
Job Description- To assemble and drive a team (what are they, mules?) that will design and setup venue (that sounds so chique) decoration and the stage, and to liaise (oo la la) with the venue management. Responsibilities include floor plan design (arranging the chairs) and setup, materials logistics (putting the trinkets to be sold on the trinket tables?), and some vendor negotiations (how much to sell the shit for?).
Skills required- Previous experience with event setup on national or regional level, or the equivalent professional experience. Ability to clearly communicate verbally and in writing (can't say that about whoever wrote this). Knowledge of project planning and logistical coordination (huh?). Knowledge of materials, equipment, methods and procedures for decorating venue (I didn't know they decorated). Familiarity with and access to word processing, spreadsheet, and other common desktop applications. Access to email, Internet, fax and telephone. Comfortable and effective in a team dynamic (oh they sound so 'professional').
Time needed- Estimated 10 - 15 hours per week, with potentially more time during the weeks surrounding an event.
Location- Telecommute (huh?)

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Date: Wed, Mar 07, 2001 at 05:18:17 (GMT)
From: G
Email: None
To: whoever wrote this junk
Subject: Who wants to be a Communication?
Message:
More from the EV Participation page:

Job# POP021
Functional Area- International Event Communication
Job Title- International Event Communication
Job Description- Member of international event support team (What's this, no capitalization?) focusing on communications. Coordinate communication with international event teams (Come on now, without those capitals how can this seem important?). Maintain event histories (head count, spying on aspirants?), evaluations and reporting. Facilitate event proposal development.

Skills required- Effective personal/phone communication. Ability to manage details, Document and report preparation. Solid English speaking & written; (I think you meant writing, written is not a noun. Also note the inconsistancy between 'and' and '&') ...

Hey Prem, have you fixed the grammatical errors on your web site yet, or are you too full of false pride?

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Date: Wed, Mar 07, 2001 at 19:04:14 (GMT)
From: Joe
Email: None
To: G
Subject: Who WRITES these things?
Message:
Facilitate event proposal development.

What the hell is that?

The thing that has always been really funny about Elan Vital was that it was this 'pretend' organization that allowed really incompetent people to play what they thought was the role people in the real, corporate world. They get to pretend to be executives or managers in a real operation.

So they 'write' this stuff, they obviously have zero writing skills, and they play pretend executive. It is ironic that someone who is requiring English skills has none themselves. How would they recognize them when they saw them?

I'm sure we all remember the self-important honchos running around at programs, getting to be in charge. This was a great boon to them, until they had to return to Cleveland or Hartford and perform their real jobs, which consisted of stocking produce or trying to con college professors into sell them used textbooks.

I guess that's one thing about the cult that hasn't changed.

By the way, Elan Vital has been using 'facilitate' since it was founded in 1971.

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Date: Wed, Mar 07, 2001 at 19:35:17 (GMT)
From: Flea in Your Ear
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: Who WRITES these things? Tom Hagan NT
Message:
g
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Date: Wed, Mar 07, 2001 at 19:39:07 (GMT)
From: Joe
Email: None
To: Flea in Your Ear
Subject: Who WRITES these things? Tom Hagan
Message:
Is Tom Hagan a fulltime employee of Elan Vital, or does he do it on a volunteer basis? If he is a volunteer, what does he do for a living? Certainly it has nothing to do with human resources, writing, or communication.

Also, flea, I think you mentioned Kathie Thomas as the person who wrote the Answers to the FAQs on the Elan Vital website, which contain so many misleading statements and lies. Do you know if she did these on her own? Certainly they must have been approved by Maharaji. Is Katie, also a fulltime employee of EV? If not, what does she do in her real life?

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Date: Wed, Mar 07, 2001 at 19:42:49 (GMT)
From: Pat Conlon
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: These premies are the suckers who
Message:
have been given titles so that if anything goes wrong they can take the blame. Everything is decided by a ''nexus team.'' Isn't it obvious that the stuff from EV and VI is done by committee? It lacks all personality and uses responsibilty avoidance techniques in the classic manner of a committee.
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Date: Wed, Mar 07, 2001 at 02:14:27 (GMT)
From: G
Email: None
To: all
Subject: another VPO
Message:
Job# POP028
Functional Area- Information
Job Title- Information Table - Malibu, CA (someone's a table?)
Job Description- Does set up and display of materials on Information Table at events (put the shit to be sold on the trinkets table) in Malibu (the Holy Land). Provides accurate information upon request (Ok, why Elan Vital is harboring a pedophile?). Maintains inventory of materials (make sure there's plenty of shit to sell). Ensures that materials presented are appropriate for the event (don't use your own judgement though). Has good communications skills and professional presentation (er, this is an unpaid task).
Skills required- Good communication and working with the public experience and skills (now that is just grammatically incorrect).
Information Training required (The Horror!).
Time needed- 2 1/2 Hours per event
Location- Malibu, California
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Date: Wed, Mar 07, 2001 at 16:12:46 (GMT)
From: Postie
Email: None
To: G
Subject: another VPO - go G go - hilarious!!!!
Message:
Information Training required (The Horror!)

Jesus, I'm crying this stuff is so funny. E.V.'s straight text is hilarious but with your parenthetical comments, I'm laughing body laughs. Keep up the good work.

On a somber note - this is precisely why EV events and Maharaji's world in general is soooooo constipated. The last time I did the simplest project for EV / Visions, I felt like I was dealing with people who actually believed in their hyperbolic job descriptions.

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Date: Wed, Mar 07, 2001 at 14:37:30 (GMT)
From: salam
Email: None
To: G
Subject: another VPO
Message:
I already applied to one of the jobs, have good resume, but did not get it. I wonder why?
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Date: Sat, Mar 10, 2001 at 10:00:49 (GMT)
From: janet
Email: None
To: salam
Subject: you write at least as well as they do--try
Message:
putting a stick up your ass, and submit again!
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Date: Wed, Mar 07, 2001 at 05:08:59 (GMT)
From: Marianne
Email: None
To: All
Subject: Oh Thelma, here's a job for you!
Message:
I know you usually like to straighten out the table cloths at the events, but here's your chance to take a step up the PWK ladder and actually be THE TABLE! Don't let this opportunity pass you by.

Keep this stuff coming, G. Hilarious.

Marianne

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Date: Wed, Mar 07, 2001 at 07:38:31 (GMT)
From: Thelma the Church Lady
Email: None
To: Marianne
Subject: Marianne - for one minute I thought you and TED
Message:
were conspiring to get me to take the CHILDCARE service and he knows what I think about rugrats. I've been a table before and it's a lot of fun. I won't go into details but you know how us San Franciscans will try anything once. Actually I'm better at bending over backwards.
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Date: Wed, Mar 07, 2001 at 03:39:39 (GMT)
From: Brian Smith
Email: None
To: G
Subject: another VPO. I submit my application for review
Message:
gentlemen:
I would like to apply for the position of information table. Experience: experience as a table goes back to the late sixties when on acid I actually invisioned my self as a table. Committed Several hours in catatonic stillness capturing the essence of table consciousness.
Also held the position of a table briefly for a friend who had locked herself out of her home.
I held myself bent over, kept my back straight and allowed person to step up on my back and raise herself in through window.

My goals as a table are to provide a mindless and thoughtless space to the for the dispensation and storage of propaganda. On my salary of nothing I will have to eat a lot of beans and I pledge to avoid gaseous foods on event days and to injest an ample dose of beano lest I emit offensive odors whilst doing divine service hunched over assuming table position.

I truly believe given my experience and commitment that I can become an valuable assest to your table team. I realize that this is an entry level table position but I do have have high career goals. I hope to attain the position of becoming the video projector table in the future. And from there the sky is the limit.

I am highly motivated and am a real team player, I feel that my experience and qualifications would make me the best person for the job,

I anxiously wait your response.
Brian Smith

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Date: Wed, Mar 07, 2001 at 14:39:54 (GMT)
From: salam
Email: None
To: Brian Smith
Subject: That is bloody funny.
Message:
hahahahahahahahahahahaha.

ROFling

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Date: Wed, Mar 07, 2001 at 06:43:46 (GMT)
From: Dickie Pwickie
Email: None
To: Brian Smith
Subject: Brian, if you were really humble, you'd be...
Message:
... coffee table!
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Date: Wed, Mar 07, 2001 at 04:39:15 (GMT)
From: Robyn
Email: None
To: Brian Smith
Subject: another VPO. I submit my application for review
Message:
Dear Brian,
I have been enjoying the posts of yours that I catch and now see you are funny too! :)
Love,
Robyn
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Date: Wed, Mar 07, 2001 at 04:18:05 (GMT)
From: janet
Email: None
To: Brian Smith
Subject: ROTFLMAO....wood you like this job?
Message:
the puns beg for utterance. i cant go there. i'll never come back!!!!!
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Date: Wed, Mar 07, 2001 at 04:13:22 (GMT)
From: Helen
Email: None
To: Brian Smith/G
Subject: VPO
Message:
LOL, Brian.
G,
I hate this Elan Vital-speak. It's so archaic sounding. Why don't they just come out and say what they want to say? This 1984 propoganda writing style distances the speaker from the one reading.It's like one drone speaking to another drone in drone-talk. It's so creepy. I guess 'opportunity' is a euphemism for 'service.' But they can't use the word 'service' anymore because that's the old Maharaji talk which looks too 'devotional' in today's reinvented 'K-lite.' Even though the service of the old days was slavery, no doubt about it, at least it was hyped as the key to 'that bliss, that experience, that...' Now it all sounds about as thrilling as a Pentagon or World Bank inter-office memo.
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Date: Tues, Mar 06, 2001 at 23:16:22 (GMT)
From: Mr. P
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: Anything Goes. (OT???)
Message:
Does anyone know the URL of AG???
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Date: Tues, Mar 06, 2001 at 23:40:34 (GMT)
From: Mr D
Email: None
To: Mr. P
Subject: Anything Goes. (OT???)
Message:
Yes, I know it. It's here, The ANYTHING GOES Forum
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Date: Wed, Mar 07, 2001 at 08:50:47 (GMT)
From: Barry
Email: None
To: Mr D
Subject: I am the KING of A.G!!!Ask anyone here!(nt)
Message:
HAAAAAAAA!
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Date: Wed, Mar 07, 2001 at 14:41:45 (GMT)
From: salam
Email: None
To: Barry
Subject: don't lie
Message:
bazza the bongo is the king.
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Date: Tues, Mar 06, 2001 at 19:39:27 (GMT)
From: Joe
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: My Email To Elan Vital
Message:
Here is an email I sent to Elan Vital today:

Dear Elan Vital:

My name is Joe Whalen, I live in San Francisco, California, and I was a devotee of Maharaji, then known as Guru Maharaj Ji, for ten years from 1973 to 1983. I have sent you emails in the past, expressing my deep concern and distress, that the FAQ Answers on your website are extremely misleading and in fact fallacious in a number of areas. I know this to be true from my own involvement as an employee of Elan Vital for a number of years both at International Headquarters and as Community Coordinator, and from my involvement in being a devotee of Maharaji in the past. This is of particular and personal concern to me, because I believe your website distorts and misrepresents key events and beliefs in my own life, let alone statements and actions taken by Maharaji himself.

I read today on the Ex-premie.org, Forum V, some letters written by another employee of Elan Vital, Dot Proctor, in her official capacity as spokesperson and correspondent for Maharaji and Elan Vital in the late 70s and early 80s, to a very young 'premie' named Abi who was living in England at the time. As a matter of information, I knew Dot Proctor personally from my time working at Elan Vital International Headquarters in Miami Beach, Florida in 1979 and 1980, and personally saw her performing her official Elan Vital function of answering such correspondence, and, in fact, I received such correspondence myself from Elan Vital as authored by Dot.

In those letters to Abi, Dot specifically refers to Maharaji as both the 'creator' and the 'savior.' Specifically, she wrote the following in 1978 (from my own experience, and as you know, Guru Maharaj Ji, was often referred to as 'GMJ'):

The joy of loving GMJ is endless. He has given us so many ways to love Him and express our love for Him. He has created each one of us a little bit differently, and we each seem to express our love in a unique way.

Perhaps each day we see how lost we are and yet if we just stop for one second and remember that we have GMJ, that He came into this world to save each one of us. It's our chance now to beg Him to show us how to let go and trust Him.

I have previously written to Elan Vital pointing out statements by Maharaji himself, in Elan Vital publications, which he clearly claimed to be God, in contradiction to the statements on your website. To date, Elan Vital has chosen not to respond to my questions concerning the obvious contradictions.

My question to Elan Vital now is how can Elan Vital, officially, in 1978, state unequivocally that Maharaji is both the creator and the savior, and also contend as you do on your website that Maharaji has never claimed to be God, and that he is just an 'ordinary person.' It is clear that Elan Vital, the non-profit 'church,' made just such claims, in writing, through its official correspondent, Dot Proctor.

If Elan Vital how disagrees with its earlier statements about Maharaji's divinity, does Elan Vital now disavow those statements made by Dot and others, including Maharaji, and if so, why is that not stated specifically on your website? Do you not feel it is appropriate and responsible to correct such blatant and obvious errors? I also wonder if such obvious misrepresentations might affect Elan Vital's non-profit status and its ability to collect donations, which are apparently being done under misrepresentations about Elan Vital's current and earlier policy positions concerning Maharaji's divinity.

I look forward to your reply. My email address is kevjo@mindspring.com.

Joe Whalen

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Date: Wed, Mar 07, 2001 at 03:25:43 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: Good one as usual, Joe (nt)
Message:
ddddd
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Date: Tues, Mar 06, 2001 at 19:52:54 (GMT)
From: Cynthia
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: My Email To Elan Vital
Message:
Hi Joe,

Great letter. I'm sending one too.

Right now, I am just so goddamned pissed off by the responses given to Abi (below) by Dot (who I also knew in Miami, as well as Sally Reeder), I must collect myself so I don't foul mouth the EV people, rather than asking them cogent questions as you have.

I have all the letters send to me from both Dot and Sally, but they're in a box and I have to do some digging.

Thanks again, for your compassion and courage, Joe.

Love,
Cynthia

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Date: Wed, Mar 07, 2001 at 01:38:23 (GMT)
From: Roy
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: Excellent letter Joe- polite and to the point. nt
Message:
n
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Date: Tues, Mar 06, 2001 at 20:09:54 (GMT)
From: Susan
Email: None
To: Cynthia
Subject: to Cynthia
Message:
I have been really busy lately and up until today reading when I can but not posting very much. I want to make a point though to let you know that one thread I wish I had responded to, but I was so filled with emotion I knew it would take me longer than I had, was your sharing your pregnancy story. It was heart wrenching, real, passionate and I flet for you so deeply as I read it. I want you to know you have my support and caring, even though I know it was long ago, what a horrible thing to have suvived.

Your posts have been so good and I have meant so many times to say thank you for posting. You are really right on in what you say about this awful cult. Thanks so much.

Your friend,

Susan

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Date: Tues, Mar 06, 2001 at 20:00:12 (GMT)
From: Joe
Email: None
To: Cynthia
Subject: My Email To Elan Vital
Message:
Thanks, Cynthia.

The particularly outrageous things was Dot was writing to a KID. Amazing, although I have a hard time faulting either Dot or Sally, because I believed most of the same stuff they were writing, and if I had that 'service' I probably would have said much the same stuff. Frightening.

I really liked Dot. She was a nice person and funny. Sally, I could not relate to. She did not even have one toe touching the ground, if you know what I mean. Anyone who is that cheerful all the time deserves to be slapped, or perhaps have pointless root canal surgeries performed. ::))

It's really great that people have saved this stuff. This is all the stuff that is going to haunt Maharaji, and Elan Vital, until they finally fess up and talk openly about all this. I am not holding my breath, though.

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Date: Tues, Mar 06, 2001 at 19:44:54 (GMT)
From: ITMA
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: My Email To Elan Vital
Message:
Sorry to disappoint you, Joe but I can forsee what kind of reply you'll get. Elan Vital will talk about these deluded people in the past who put their concepts onto Maharaji and saw him as God, when all the time Maharaji, poor soul, was trying to lead people away from all these Hindu ideas and show them the truth within etc etc.

It's easy for Elan Vital to get past this one because they can just blame the stupid ignorant fools who were following Maharaji back then. And anyway, it was a different organisation back then, called Divine Light Mission. Nothing to do with Elan Vital.

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Date: Tues, Mar 06, 2001 at 20:25:07 (GMT)
From: Marianne
Email: None
To: ITMA
Subject: The letters to Abi have legal significance
Message:
The letters to Abi were written on official corporate stationery, by a person who had authority to respond to correspondence sent to Captain Rawat. They have great legal significance.

Joe, I look forward to any response you receive. Great work writing that letter.

Marianne

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Date: Tues, Mar 06, 2001 at 19:49:05 (GMT)
From: Joe
Email: None
To: ITMA
Subject: Not True
Message:
First of all, Elan Vital and Divine Light Mission are one and the same organization in the USA, all it did was change the name in 1986, the website has the official government documents. Moreoever, Elan Vital claims it was incorporated in 1971, that what was incorporated was Divine Light Mission.

I know the spiel about the Hindu concepts. And I have no doubts that when push comes to shove, Maharaji would sell anyone down the river, including Dot Proctor as well as anyone else to protect his own ass. But then, there are lots of people watching, aren't there?

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Date: Tues, Mar 06, 2001 at 23:43:29 (GMT)
From: ITMA
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: Not True
Message:
I know it's not true (that DLM and Elan Vital are seperate organisations). I was being ironic. Elan Vital will swear blind that it is true though.
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Date: Wed, Mar 07, 2001 at 04:35:25 (GMT)
From: janet
Email: None
To: ITMA
Subject: they can swea all they like. no judge, seeing
Message:
the evidence we have compiled, and having our first person witness testimony, will accept their side. it is too plain, once the trail of evidence is laid out, that this is a concerted falsehood from the top down. i hope what happened to OJ simpson in the civil trial happens to rawat. i hope they attach all his assetts and bulldoze down the house at anacapa view drive lke they ultimately did to OJ's house on rockingham
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Date: Tues, Mar 06, 2001 at 23:49:46 (GMT)
From: Joe
Email: None
To: ITMA
Subject: Not True
Message:
Have you actually heard Elan Vital officals say this? Who? When? What specifically did they say?

I did read in that article from Australia, that Elan Vital attempted to say all the Lord of the Universe stuff was Divine Light Mission and that Maharaji wasn't associated with DLM anymore, only Elan Vital. But then, the reporter did a little research and discovered that in Australia, as in the USA, Elan Vital and DLM are indeed the same organization, just with a name change. In other words, they caught the Elan Vital spokesperson in a direct lie.

So, what has Elan Vital said about this?

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Date: Wed, Mar 07, 2001 at 09:31:59 (GMT)
From: Jean-Michel
Email: jmkahn@club-internet.fr
To: Joe
Subject: Joe ? Where's the australian article?
Message:
I've never got a copy of it.

Would you mind emailing it to me?

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Date: Wed, Mar 07, 2001 at 18:18:39 (GMT)
From: Joe
Email: None
To: Jean-Michel
Subject: It's on EPO -- called 'Kangaroo Hop?' (nt)
Message:
nt
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Date: Wed, Mar 07, 2001 at 18:28:55 (GMT)
From: Joe
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: It's 'Kanguru Hop?' --here is relevent part
Message:
...The guru's latest gathering appears to be another money-spinner but under a different guise. Organizers expect up to 4000 'students' to attend the 'Elan Vital 1997 Conference' and a spokeswoman for Elan Vital claimed the guru was no longer associated with DLM. 'That is all in the past now,' said Ros Sutton, who claimed to have found 'Knowledge' with the guru 25 years ago.

Ms. Sutton said Maharaji had 'completely disassociated himself' from DLM. 'He (Maharaji) was very young at that time. It was when he was 13. He was promoted as being involved with the organization (DLM),' she said. 'But since then, because of the strong Indian connotations, he has completely disassociated himself from that organization. What he teaches is not religion.'

Australian Securities Commission records show the registered company Divine Light Mission Inc. changed its name to Elan Vital in the late 1980's. In 1992, Elan Vital registered the name Ivory Rock Convention Centre, where the meeting is being held, and is currently marketing it as a conference venue. Security officers at the front gate this week were stopping cars, and followers manned checkpoints on roads inside the property.

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Date: Tues, Mar 06, 2001 at 20:05:19 (GMT)
From: Pat Conlon
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: Joe, next time I say to you
Message:
that the Bratguru is ''really not THAT bad'' please slap me. I know I said this to only the other night when we had dinner. The man is an immoral infantile conman and pathological liar.
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Date: Tues, Mar 06, 2001 at 23:57:07 (GMT)
From: Joe
Email: None
To: Pat Conlon
Subject: Joe, next time I say to you
Message:
It's okay Patrick. I tend to wax and wane in my fervor as well.

Kevin and I had a good time with you guys at dinner on Sunday. All the Indian food kind of reminded me of the early premie days, but the food on Sunday was so much better.

We even made it home it time to watch 'Queer as Folk' on Showtime.

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Date: Wed, Mar 07, 2001 at 01:21:10 (GMT)
From: Pat Conlon
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: Joe, Queer as Folk - OT
Message:
I'm glad you guys enjoyed dinner. The three of us had tummy upsets and it really was the same old unremarkable Punjabi food as all the other Indian joints in town. It just happens to be famous because of some luck with free publicity and I know just how lucky that can be.

Maybe I'll do an Indian feast for SFLN for old times sake. It will be mostly Gujerati, a little bit of Tamil with a dash of house-mother ashram cuisine. I won't use nearly as much salt as I have had to use to stomach the Lord's lard for 28 years. But then maybe I won't. The nostalgia may backfire.

I nearly got Showtime to see ''Queer'' but then forgot and now it's nearly over. Is it as good as the Brit version? I saw you post that it was more risque but was it only risque with sex and nudity? The English version seemed to really be pushing the envelope with the young kid. Guess I'll just have to wait until Le Video has it on tape.

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Date: Wed, Mar 07, 2001 at 01:34:54 (GMT)
From: Joe
Email: None
To: Pat Conlon
Subject: Joe, Queer as Folk - OT
Message:
Well, I have to admit that the American version is actually better than the British version, although I was skeptical at first. The American version is a much longer series. I don't know how many episodes, but it is a lot longer. The big difference is that the British version was on regular broadcast television (Channel 4), and the US version is on cable. Big difference, and the main reason they can get away with showing show many nude male bodies and so much sex.

They have changed the story some from the British version, the lesbian couple has a much, much bigger role and you actually get to see their relationship, which is nice. The American version is funnier, and you don't have to listen to the word 'Shag' every five minutes.

The American version did cop out and make the 15-year-old 17, but the actor is actually 23, and very good. And the guy who plays Michael (Vince in the Brit version), who has a show called 'Talk Soup' on HBO is adorable. Sharon Gless (Cagney & Lacy) plays Michael's mom and is great.

There is a lot more emphasis on safe sex in the US version, more discussion of AIDS, more examples of healthy relationships among gay men, more funny episodes (like going to an ex-gay ministry), but the whole thing supposedly takes place in Pittsburgh, which, in the story has clubs that would put San Francisco to shame. I would say the American version has a softer edge, which I would expect.

There are still a number of episodes left and it started at the beginning of December, but I like it, so it can go on as long as they want it to, as far as I'm concerned.

You can get the British version on video, which is how I saw it, and I'm sure the US version will be too. Also, the Castro theater has been running the shows on occasion for free, I guess financed by Showtime.

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Date: Tues, Mar 06, 2001 at 20:00:21 (GMT)
From: cq
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: and Dot Proctor was EV's official spokesperson (nt
Message:
;aslkfdj
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Date: Tues, Mar 06, 2001 at 20:14:48 (GMT)
From: Postie
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: Your email hits home
Message:
Your email should hit home. If not with the home office, at the very least with the numerous PWK lurkers here. I've said it before, but I lurked here on and off since the beginning and did not post until the Susan / Dettmers communication attempt with Maharaji. That 'flipped me' to becoming more vocal (albeit anonomously) and pay more attention to the assertions here and and feel compassion for those posting.

Postie

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Date: Tues, Mar 06, 2001 at 20:09:25 (GMT)
From: Joe
Email: None
To: cq
Subject: Excellent Point
Message:
In fact, if things get hot, Maharaji will sell Elan Vital down the river, too. Elan Vital can be the fall guy, just like 'Divine Light Mission' has been the fall guy. If he is ever in a position to have to blame anybody, Maharaji will blame premies, and the organizations, including Elan Vital. I just hope the people at Elan Vital realize this and are protecting themselves. Like, I hope Marcia Leitner and those people have seen to it that they have D&O insurance, for example. What kind of indemnification agreement does Elan Vital have with it's directors?

In some cases, the personal assests of Directors and Officers can be accessed as damages, and then there are all those legal fees.

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Date: Tues, Mar 06, 2001 at 20:30:03 (GMT)
From: Marianne
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: When litigation hits, rats jump ship
Message:
Not only that, Joe, but Captain Rawat is certainly not the only person who could be sued in all these different legal scenarios. Some people won't have money to hire lawyers, and some people might give information because they were not dealt with fairly by Captain Rawat and other cult members. That's how skeletons start flying out of the closet, when people realize that Captain Rawat isn't going to help them, and they'd finally better just protect themselves. It happens in legal proceedings all the time. I'm sure you know that.

Marianne

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Date: Tues, Mar 06, 2001 at 20:17:11 (GMT)
From: cq
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: the fall-guys are always the mahatmas -
Message:
- who taught us that language of 'devotion'.
.
.
.

- but whose mahatmas were they?

.
.
.
One day, the buck will stop, and hopefully be seen to stop, at those podgy little lotus tootsies.

One day.

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Date: Tues, Mar 06, 2001 at 19:02:50 (GMT)
From: cq
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: The common or garden premie - then and now
Message:
You know, many of us posting here are of a 'certain' age.

Many of us got ourselves involved (by hook or by crook, maybe both) with the Maha when we were in our late teens or early twenties.

I wonder what the average age of yer average aspirant is these days?

Anyway, I had a point to make (memory don't fail me now)

Ah yes - a good 'un, I think.

Unlike the premies of the 70s (maybe 80s too, I don't know since I wasn't around after about '76), today's aspirants don't get the heavy messianic trip laid on them. These days, the meditation and the focus on its 'teacher' are portrayed as much more regular, socially acceptable pursuits. You don't have to believe M is the Saviour any more, (as long as you keep 'involved', feel 'gratitude' and keep yourself 'synchronised' - whatever that's currently supposed to mean ... at the third stroke, I will be experiencing another premonition/deja vu whose existence will be accredited to Maharaji ...???).

Well, I guess so-called 'magical thinking' still goes on in premie-land.

The point is, though today's aspirants might find it very hard to relate to the Maharaj Ji that we (70s premies) knew, nevertheless, although the conditioning/programming is less obvious or blatant these days, they are still allowing their minds, psyches, souls, ... whatever you want to call their inner core of self-identity - to be influenced by a man who has a history of being a decidedly suspect manipulator of human minds and hearts.

No wonder the Maha went to such lengths to try and recall all the literature about him. The very fact that he used such methods in the past is a liability for him and his current attempts to insinuate himself into the lives of today's 'seekers'.

Surely he must realise how transparent his approach is, with all the ever-so subtle (I think not) references to the need for 'gratitude' and the dependency on the 'master' that he keeps pushing.

A simple expose of his history should be enough to make people aware that there is, indeed, a very real risk to run when encountering Maharaji. His reputation precedes him, and the very fact he tried to destroy his past has to be indicative that he is not a man to trust. Especially since his current propaganda harps on incessantly about 'gratitude', the 'heart', the need for a 'master', etc. It's the same old game with new buzz-words.

Surely it can only be ignorance of his history that allows people to become involved with him these days? Or are there only the old die-hard premies left? (i.e. the ones who made a committment to him as their own personal 'saviour' - and haven't the willpower to question that decision).

The question I want to ask is: how on earth do people STILL get hooked in this day and age?

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Date: Wed, Mar 07, 2001 at 08:56:10 (GMT)
From: Tonette
Email: None
To: cq
Subject: The common garden vegetable
Message:
and new hybrid.
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Date: Tues, Mar 06, 2001 at 23:13:35 (GMT)
From: kev
Email: None
To: cq
Subject: The common or garden premie - then and now
Message:
Hi cq & everyone

I'm a new ex and I was a local aspirants contact (which I am now deeply ashamed of, because I helped some people come to you know who) but to answer your qusestions; 'I wonder what the average age of yer average aspirant is these days?' and 'how on earth do people STILL get hooked in this day and age?'. The averagee age is about 30+ although I know some young people are still being hooked but I thing the young are a lot less gullible than I was. For myself I was a very gullible 27 when I got sucked in and I am now a grey heaired 40 year old. As to how do people still get hooked I think it is because M is still playing on peoples hopes and dreams that he has the answer. But the good news is that aspirants are very thin on the ground at the moment and the once that do get knowledge do not stay around for all that long.

Hope to write more soon,
Kev

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Date: Wed, Mar 07, 2001 at 19:46:20 (GMT)
From: cq
Email: None
To: kev
Subject: The common or garden premie - then and now
Message:
Thanks for the info, Kevin

I'd like to say that it's good to see you've taken the plunge and started posting here. The more feedback and insight into the many varieties of 'life with knowledge - and its consequences' that are posted here can only help. Your input is valuable - not only does it give you an outlet for expressing all manner of feelings and thoughts that would have been inexpressible in premie circles, but it also keeps us 'oldies' up-to-date with the more recent methods of how the Maha (my own particular nick-name for Maharaji - though you'll come across plenty of others) is still promoting the dependency-cult that continues to put him (and not the need to practise knowledge) at the forefront of premies' thoughts.

I'd also like to say that there's no need to feel ashamed for having been instrumental in persuading other people to get involved with M.

But if that's what you feel, then there's no doubt you'll have to deal with those feelings for yourself.

I'm sure I was instrumental in leading quite a few others towards the Maha, but there's no way I feel bad or guilty about it now. Remember that blaming ourselves was always a strong motif in premie-land. Just another manipulatory technique to divert the responsibility from the so-called 'master', if you ask me.

We were all caught up in a scam that was not, repeat NOT, designed to encourage personal self-examination. Strange, isn't it? You'd think that would be one of the major reasons for getting mixed up in a trip like this. But honest self-examination is in fact the opposite of what M thrives on. He profits from putting doubts aside and trusting blindly in an authority figure that he does his best (though his best is pretty abysmal) to emulate.

We bought into it, yes. But now that we've taken responsibility for buying OUT of it, then let's hope that our experience can be of use to those who have yet to find their way out of the maze that is 'devotion' (whatever that's called now) to the Maha.

Best,

Chris

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Date: Wed, Mar 07, 2001 at 04:43:29 (GMT)
From: janet
Email: None
To: kev
Subject: welcome kev-welcome to F5 and to your real self
Message:
i always light up when i see a new person speak up and make themselves known. you are absolutely welcome here, and unlike a certain other arena we all know too well, you can say whatever the hell you think here, and damn the torpedoes! if any smarmy church ladies try to wheedle you around to a point of view here, other than your own true one, kick em in the ass!! as JFK used to say, 'with vigah'
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Date: Wed, Mar 07, 2001 at 01:23:53 (GMT)
From: Joe
Email: None
To: kev
Subject: The common or garden premie - then and now
Message:
Hi Kev,

I got people hooked as well. I think a lot of us did, so don't feel bad about that, it happened to just about everybody. One thing I saw was that even 20 years ago, all the people I hooked in left a long time before I did.

One wonders what it might be to hold people in these days. Most people I knew, including myself, stayed out of fear, mostly. We were afraid that the things that Maharaji said would happen to us would, and/or that we would miss out on serving the living Perfect Master and seeing his divine and perfect plan unfold. It was a crock, but fear is very motivating, or in this case, imprisoning.

I have a question though about how an 'aspirant' would even hear about knowledge. Connie said it as mostly kids of premies, and significant others of premies. Was that your experience as well?

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Date: Wed, Mar 07, 2001 at 20:02:33 (GMT)
From: kev
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: The common or garden premie - then and now
Message:
Hi Joe & everybody else who has made me feel so welcome,

It is so refreshing actually get a reply, unlike some other sites we all know and hate. In answer to your question 'how an 'aspirant' would even hear about knowledge. Connie said it as mostly kids of premies, and significant others of premies. Was that your experience as well?' Yes Connie is right, a lot of the new aspirants are kids of premies (and so continuing the chain of abuse) and sometimes sighificant other of premies. As to how other hear about it, thankfully there are not many new people who come to k from friends and acquaintance now. I think they (the premies) are all too embarrassed to tell any one they have K (I know I was).

God why did I stay in for so long?

love kev

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Date: Wed, Mar 07, 2001 at 14:14:21 (GMT)
From: Connie
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: Dear Joe, I mentioned friends also.......nt
Message:
gggbbb
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Date: Wed, Mar 07, 2001 at 00:03:26 (GMT)
From: Kelly
Email: None
To: kev
Subject: The common or garden premie - then and now
Message:
Hi Kev,
good to hear from you...do you know? one of the final straws for me was because I had a real live aspirant on my hands...I too was local aspirant contact..but nobody ever contacted me!!! one day, a childhood friend came back into my life...and she was searching...she was going through a bad time and she really needed something...So guess what, I showed her a video...My theory now, is that, if you haven't heard anything like this before and you are in a desperate state...it must sound amazing. She said she had never heard anything like it...and to cut a long story short, she became very interested in getting k. This was an interesting experience for me too because I went along to a few special meetings with her. Where almost none of her questions were answered!! So it was left to me to explain to her....and Boy was she a demanding questioner.. For some reason she couldn't just accept that she should watch certain videos...and not any others..that the whole thing was a secret anyway.. God, she was stupid!! Fortunately, I never subscribed to that bullshit command of M's that we should not talk about it...so I tried my best to explain to her why she had to go through this process...and, in the end...as the light dawned..I had to tell her. (the responsibility is what cracked it for me, I couldn't carry on)

When I finally told her that I could no longer recommend that she recieve K...She was shocked, but also relieved, because she told me that although she really wanted K and she wanted to know how to meditate, she really found M hard to take!! She was prepared to go through the process just to get k....but she also knew that she would probably have been turned down.

So, anyway, I showed her this site, and she was fascinated by the aspirant stories, like Danianne's. She read about the techs, and asked me a few questions...so I showed her !!!what she wanted to know. This weekend, while we are celebrating Latvian Night, she is going off to a meditation retreat somewhere in Wales. I am so pleased for her, because I'm sure she will get a lot out of it. Not least because she will have contact with real live human beings...Not some DVD Cd or Video/satellite Auto Knowledge link-up.
What a load of rubbish!
Wishing you all the best, and with love,
Kelly

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Date: Wed, Mar 07, 2001 at 02:19:17 (GMT)
From: Pat Conlon
Email: None
To: Kelly
Subject: The not so common or garden ex-premie
Message:
Kelly,

I read this story of yours when you posted it before but this time there is more detail and it is a GOOD story. Keep it. I am going to post a new thread soon suggesting that people keep their stories not just for their Journeys but as pieces to be included in an anthology of ex-premies anecdotes to be published in book form. We can settle the minds of thousands of ex-premies and un-premies and others who have suffered at the bratguru's hands, wrap up the sordid tale and make a few bucks back from our poor investment.

It also proves my hunch that a good story can always be retold especially here where there are new arrivals daily it seems.

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Date: Tues, Mar 06, 2001 at 23:50:45 (GMT)
From: Connie
Email: None
To: kev
Subject: The common or garden premie - then and now
Message:
Hi kev

Welcome and thanks for posting.

My observation is that the few that do stay around generally fall into two categories:

children of involved pwks.
friends/girlfriends/boyfriends/spouses of involved pwks.

What do you think?

I agree with you that today in the west, hardly anyone takes k, those that do, with few exceptions, don't hang around.

I didn't know what m meant when he said in the beginning of the year that there were 90,000 aspirants around the world. I think he said there were 40,000 in India. Where are the other 50,000? Certainly not in the west. Why would he say this?

Is there a country that no one but him knows about?

What I find unsettling is no one seems to mind these gross exaggerations, no one bats an eyelid or even questions it. Does this mean no one really listens to him, in regards to what is coming out of his mouth?

If one mentions the inconsistencies, you are labelled a complainer (not team player), but never given a satisfactory answer to your concern.

Very disturbing!

Hope you keep posting.

Thanks
C

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Date: Wed, Mar 07, 2001 at 02:13:23 (GMT)
From: Pat Conlon
Email: None
To: Connie
Subject: The common or garden ex-premie
Message:
Hi Connie,

You said to Kelly: ''I agree with you that today in the west, hardly anyone takes k, those that do, with few exceptions, don't hang around.''

What the hell kept you and Kelly and Postie and Brian Smith and Charles and Kev and me around until now? It was over the moment guys like us stopped giving money and started posting here. It may continue among the Indians and he will probably one day be famous as the Jim Bakker of India (the guy who built the largest Christian satellite network in history in the USA.)

You continued: ''I didn't know what m meant when he said in the beginning of the year that there were 90,000 aspirants around the world. I think he said there were 40,000 in India. Where are the other 50,000? Certainly not in the west. Why would he say this? Is there a country that no one but him knows about?''

That really got me thinking. Like you, I see that propagation is finished in the west but I always believed the Indian statistics till now when I read your post. When you broke it down into 40 and 50 thousand a big penny dropped.

Having been born and raised in a city with the largest concentration of Indians outside of India I am obviously interested in the Indian diaspora and know a fair amount about it. If you count all the Indian population of South Africa, East Africa, Britain, USA, Fiji, Mauritius, La Reunion or any other country with a community of Indian ex-pats, it comes to 25 million (yes, they're the largest diaspora after the Chinese.)

The Indian population of South Africa is about one million and there are 500 Indian premies. That means that there are 12,500 premies in the rest of the diaspora and 12,000 in India. (Remember that k has been in S Africa since Hans sent the first mahatmas in the 60s.) His figures are inflated with typical Hindu hyperbole and his own brand of Walter Mittyism.

Many of the socalled ''premies'' in India are not particular about which guru is having a bash and go along for the vibe and the food and lately the water. Rev Rawat recently boasted how the Indian premies came for the ''good water.'' They may have k but, like the vast majority of premies, they stick around only insofar as it suits them. I guess I was a real sucker.

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Date: Wed, Mar 07, 2001 at 13:53:45 (GMT)
From: Connie
Email: None
To: Pat Conlon
Subject: The common or garden ex-premie
Message:
Hi Pat

You said:

'What the hell kept you and Kelly and Postie and Brian Smith and Charles and Kev and me around until now?'

Good question.

The answer for me is simple.

My belief that m was THE MASTER and my role in life was to serve him and follow his direction.

That through doing what he said, Participation (Service), keeping in touch (Satsang) and Practice (Meditation), I would have a heart full of gratitude (devotion) and be synchronized (follow Agya), enabling me to grow and evolve as a human being and realize my full potential (enjoy myself).

From being an example, other human beings would be touched and maybe the thirst in them would be awoken/recognised, and I could point them in the right direction (Video events).

MOST IMPORTANTLY BECAUSE I WHOLEHEARTEDLY BELIEVED M LOVED AND CARED, IN THE TRUEST SENSE, ABOUT ME AND EVERY SINGLE ONE OF HIS FOLLOWERS (PREMIES), WITH ONLY OUR BEST INTERESTS AT HEART.

Today, these beliefs are totally shattered, due to the growing conviction that something was seriously wrong and the info presented on this website.

C

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Date: Wed, Mar 07, 2001 at 06:34:30 (GMT)
From: Postie
Email: None
To: Pat Conlon
Subject: Welcome kev and one point about us oldtimers
Message:
Pat Conlon wrote:' What the hell kept you and Kelly and Postie and Brian Smith and Charles and Kev and me around until now?'

Well in my case, I quit practicing K in about 1987, went to a couple of programs in Miami then didn't see M or meditate for 7 more years. Then I went to a K review and and got a nice buzz, went to Long Beach in maybe 1994 or so. So even though I wasn't around, I hadn't really left either.

Like the village Indians who come to events 'for the water', I went to Long Beach events for a couple of years for the nostalgia. For me that was the only reason I went. Old habits die slowly, even afer seven years of 'abstinance'. To be honest, I had to ignore all of the poetry videos and the devotional aids in the divine mall and the lip synch music (I know it's not really lip synched but not far from it). And Maharaji's talks have always put me in a coma - even the videos. So, my take on the oldtimers is they only come for the nostalgia but after awhile, it's difficult to excuse it all away for the sake of a nostalgia buzz.

Postie

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Date: Tues, Mar 06, 2001 at 23:25:53 (GMT)
From: Pat Conlon
Email: None
To: kev
Subject: Welcome Kev and thanks for your post
Message:
The new exes, like me and you, are almost beginning to outnumber the old-timers.
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Date: Tues, Mar 06, 2001 at 20:21:50 (GMT)
From: Charles S.
Email: bctanda@hotmail.com
To: cq
Subject: ''Satsang'' by new premies now...
Message:
cq asked:

The question I want to ask is: how on earth do people STILL get hooked in this day and age?

Before we made our final break, there was a video circulating for aspirants. It was excerpts of statements made by people who recently recieved Knowlege. It probably did more for propagation than anything M. has said in years. It was almost like allowing premies to give ''satsang'' again.

One of the people, a young, charming, beautiful red-headed English woman, was especially enchanting. She had been recovering from a serious illness, when one of the people who had been giving her physical therapy, told her about M. and K. She then described the entire process of how she came to recieve Knowledge, practicing it afterwards, and how she feels now. The entire process sounded very simple and comfortable. A charming story from a charming young lady.

She said, among other things, that she simply thought of Maharaji as one of many teachers she has had in her life. Current aspirants are encouraged to think this. Their experiance is nothing like the cult of the 1970's. M. is this wonderfully touchy-feely, new age ''Teacher/Master'' who travels the entire world, ''teaching'' out of the goodness of his heart.

I found it quite suprising that aspirants are being encouraged to think of him as a ''teacher'', as M. has so often insisted that he is much more than a mere teacher. I think it starts off as ''teacher'', then it's explained that he is a ''special teacher'', and that that is, in fact, what a ''Master'' is... all very subtle, so as not to scare new people away.

I think the point is to get you hooked on having a nice meditaton experience, and get you to enjoy M's videos, then subliminally increase the ju ju, to encourage the new premie to associate their good feelings with M., till they start to relate to HIM as the actual source, as more than just a mere teacher (by constant insinuation, not actually stating that), till they start to feel they can't continue without him. Till they become dependent.

I would question how much this actually works, since we don't seem to have a lot of new premies around. I think the new people may be more open to new information, and since they don't start out with the realization of M. as GOD, but merely a teacher, they probably find it easier to walk away, or even continue to do the meditation without him. Especially if they are asked to become more involved, and cough up time and money. And if they happen to find EPO on the internet, imagine what they must think? ''Oops... I didn't know THAT!''

I'm sure M. must often think, ''If only I could wipe out the past...'' He sure seems to be trying to.

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Date: Tues, Mar 06, 2001 at 22:51:55 (GMT)
From: such
Email: None
To: Charles S.
Subject: like co-dependents of the reinvented 'New Nixon'nt
Message:
nt
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Date: Tues, Mar 06, 2001 at 18:54:18 (GMT)
From: AJW
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: I'm going on holiday for a few days. (nt)
Message:
sob sob
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Date: Tues, Mar 06, 2001 at 23:20:50 (GMT)
From: Sandy
Email: None
To: AJW
Subject: Come to beautiful New Jersey
Message:
in the heart of the armpit of the belly of the beast. 20 minutes from everything. Let me know when and fly into Newark. I will have a white carnation in my lapel. Tell no one.

Sandy Soprano

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Date: Wed, Mar 07, 2001 at 20:28:33 (GMT)
From: Robyn
Email: None
To: Sandy
Subject: Come to beautiful New Jersey
Message:
Dear Sandy,
Oh the memories, as a child, spying out my bedroom window. Forced by my mother to report about the mafia goings on at the house across the street!!!
Born in Jersey City and lived in Union City until my parents moved to the suburbs because one of our games became, playing drunk! Grew up in Fairfield and as a premie lived in the West Orange premie house as well as apartments in East Orange and Orange. I knew a Sandy back then, he acquired a nice leather mail bag from Rob O'Keefe. You wouldn't be that Sandy would you?
Love,
Robyn
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Date: Wed, Mar 07, 2001 at 22:06:22 (GMT)
From: Sandy
Email: None
To: Robyn
Subject: Come to beautiful New Jersey
Message:
Robyn,

I don't remember a Rob O'Keefe or a leather mail bag, but what did the Sandy you knew look like? I went to a few E. Orange events when I was up here in the mid-late 1970's.

Sandy

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Date: Wed, Mar 07, 2001 at 23:52:49 (GMT)
From: Robyn
Email: None
To: Sandy
Subject: Come to beautiful New Jersey
Message:
Dear Sandy,
He was cute, shoulder length light brown hair. Studly. :) Just teasing. In my memory I have him mixed in with another man I knew from up here so can't go to much by that. :) My memory ain't what it use to be. :) Can't remember much more about him then that.
Were you at that huge house or was that in South Orange. It was right at the park, it was a premie house, just beautiful. I can't think of where anything was happening in East Orange except that I lived there on North or South Munn Street, I think and there was a premie house on Munn also.
I lived there from summer 1973 through spring of 1974, I think.
This is fun Sandy, I've only met people who were in or around places I have been but so far no one that I actually knew from back then. :(
Love,
Robyn
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Date: Wed, Mar 07, 2001 at 15:20:11 (GMT)
From: AJW
Email: None
To: Sandy
Subject: One day
Message:
we'll sink a pint Sandy.

Anth the thirsty.

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Date: Wed, Mar 07, 2001 at 03:49:42 (GMT)
From: Helen
Email: None
To: Sandy
Subject: LOL, Sandy (nt)
Message:
jdhjhdldajhla
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Date: Tues, Mar 06, 2001 at 22:25:14 (GMT)
From: Steve Quint
Email: the_avenger55@hotmail.com
To: AJW
Subject: Come To The Colonies
Message:
Vancouver needs a consultant to help set up a Latvian club - and Jim lives a few hours away.

Steve

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Date: Tues, Mar 06, 2001 at 21:06:10 (GMT)
From: Marianne
Email: None
To: AJW
Subject: Hiding due to All God's Children?
Message:
Well Anth, your own words are far more embarrassing than anything you could say about me. Are you sticking your head in the sand somewhere til Saturday night now that we all got to read your cult drivel? Karen is going to bring her bit o' Anth prose so you can do a dramatic reading for us!

Hahhahahahahahahhaaaaaaa!

Marianne

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Date: Wed, Mar 07, 2001 at 15:21:32 (GMT)
From: AJW
Email: None
To: Marianne
Subject: Isn't it about time...
Message:
...you went back to America?

Anth the Europissed

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Date: Wed, Mar 07, 2001 at 05:56:03 (GMT)
From: bill
Email: None
To: Marianne
Subject: 6 hour time dif. from EST right?..nt
Message:
sdfh
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Date: Wed, Mar 07, 2001 at 08:17:45 (GMT)
From: Marianne
Email: None
To: bill
Subject: You're 5 hours behind in EST - nt
Message:
xxxx
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Date: Tues, Mar 06, 2001 at 23:59:20 (GMT)
From: Postie
Email: None
To: AJW
Subject: You're not heading to Sicily are you?
Message:
But if you are, Anth, everyone saw that you threated to hire a hit man in the 'All God's Children' thread. So whether its Antonio Scabapickiano in Sicily or Sandy Soprano in Joisey, you'll never get away with it. Sorry, got to go - there's a swarthy looking FedEx guy at the front door with a violin case...? Aieieieieieieieieiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiii....................................................................................................
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Date: Wed, Mar 07, 2001 at 15:22:55 (GMT)
From: AJW
Email: None
To: Postie
Subject: You can run but you can't hide Postie (nt)
Message:
grrr gnash wail
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Date: Tues, Mar 06, 2001 at 17:02:42 (GMT)
From: Postie
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: Editorial from 'All God's Children'
Message:
(The following is a1979 editorial from a Divine Light Mission publication titled ALL GOD'S CHILDREN. Can you guess who the editor was?)

ALL GOD'S CHILDREN
Editorial

Jai Satchitanand,

Well, by Guru Maharaj Ji's grace, the second issue of All God's Children made into your hands. All the inspiring parts came from Guru Maharaj Ji, and the interference from the premies who produced the magazine. (well that sums up service nicely) The magazine is aimed generally at premie families, but viewing by other divine sub-species is not prohibited, as satsang calms all minds, whether married, single, or otherwise engaged. The magazine is produced by premies in the London community who are involved with childcare service.

We have been realising more and more how important it is that we serve Guru Maharaj Ji as well as we can in this way. Most people in this country are householders, and when they come along to satsang for the first time and find the community looking after its children with love and care, in a way that reflects our love for Guru Maharaj Ji, then they are bound to be attracted by that love. (Note: here comes a not so subtle, stressed out rant in one real long run-on sentence.) On the other hand, if they go to a satsang programme and the hall is full of kids charging around and crying babies, or the nursery is like some sweatshop full of freaked out goblins who have been dumped by their parents, doing maximum damage to their environment and each other, whilst being peacefully observed by some 'detached' premie who's taken the opportunity to work off a bit of bad karma by doing childcare service, they'll probably get turned off, and we will have committed the terrible mistake of putting a barrier in between a devotee and his Lord.

When we are trying to surrender our lives to our Lord, in satsang, service, and meditation, then there are no problems. We can relax. We can start to experience looking after Guru Maharaj Ji's children as part of our service. We don't have to drag them off to satsang when they should be in bed, and single premies realise babysitting once in a while is an opportunity to surrender. The nearer we are to our Lord, the more beautiful our life becomes. As Brahmanand said, 'Truly His importance is greater than God'. (indeed)

Jai Satchitanand,
(Editor's name withheld until it's clear I will not be receiving 10,000 unmarked Euros via FedEx.)

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Date: Tues, Mar 06, 2001 at 18:17:03 (GMT)
From: Susan
Email: None
To: Postie
Subject: poor Anth...is it true????
Message:
Please do not find anything I ever wrote....oh GOD!

Anth, do you notice that not once is it pointed out that these kids deserve good care because they simply deserve good care, but they should be well taken care of because if they are neglected it will look bad to outsiders?????

Oh my God....I know I thought that way too.

This is a good argument for remembering behind every premie who comes posting here on this forum spouting guruspeak....there could be an Anth crying to be let out.

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Date: Tues, Mar 06, 2001 at 19:32:51 (GMT)
From: Pat Conlon
Email: None
To: Susan
Subject: Be kind to PWKs - we all were premies once
Message:
Susan said: ''This is a good argument for remembering behind every premie who comes posting here on this forum spouting guruspeak....there could be an Anth crying to be let out.''

We all once talked the same drivel. I'll show you mine if you show me yours.

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Date: Tues, Mar 06, 2001 at 22:55:39 (GMT)
From: suchabanana
Email: None
To: Pat Conlon
Subject: that's right, Pat (nt
Message:
nt
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Date: Tues, Mar 06, 2001 at 18:31:21 (GMT)
From: AJW
Email: None
To: Susan
Subject: Susan...I...can't..
Message:
...talk right now...it's all a bit too much...you see... I was..(choke)
REACH FOR BOTTLE
..power...I had power...
...god..(cough)
GLUG GLUG GLUG

slither

Bang.

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Date: Tues, Mar 06, 2001 at 17:41:50 (GMT)
From: AJW
Email: None
To: Postie
Subject: Postie, you bastard.
Message:
You printed it. I cracked up laughing early on, but couldn't handle reading it all in one go. (Abi, now I know how you felt when you read your letters.)

Get that sentence near the end, 'and single premies realise babysitting once in a while is an opportunity to surrender.'

See, I wasn't 100% out to lunch- only 99%.

That last sentence, well,at least I admitted I'd plagiarised it, and didn't claim to have realised it all myself.

But Postie, what embarrases me as much as the cult drivel I wrote is the awful writing style. Ugh. Long clumsy sentences, cliches as attractive as lumps of carrot in a pool of vomit. I'm coming to terms with my days as a cult zombie, but I didn't know I used to write as badly as that.

Back then I was the Childcare King of Europe, my own magazine, co-ordinating 600 premies, my own budget, sandpits as far as the eye could see, play-doh by the barrel, disposal nappies by the truckload. Guru greater than God.

Where did it all go wrong?

Anth, the natural born nutcase

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Date: Tues, Mar 06, 2001 at 18:00:41 (GMT)
From: Kelly
Email: None
To: AJW
Subject: I've got one from 1977..How much Anth?
Message:
I'll bring it to Latvian night and we can negotiate the price, or you can make me an offer now. There are several mentions of our Lord's feet.....for example.
Tee hee
Kelly
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Date: Tues, Mar 06, 2001 at 18:06:45 (GMT)
From: AJW
Email: None
To: Kelly
Subject: FA Help or I'll sue.
Message:
They're trying to distort my money.

This must be illegal. I demand to see the Forum Rules.

Would you mind removing all examples of my pre-1998 writing from the website, as they are copyright. And please ban those people who are trying to public humiliate me in this way.

And if you don't I'll get my lawyers to close your server.

Alright.

And I've got some hard mates. They don't call me Anth the Chainsaw Massacre III for nothing you know.

Anth going to see his expensive lawyers.

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Date: Tues, Mar 06, 2001 at 18:26:56 (GMT)
From: Forum Admin
Email: None
To: AJW
Subject: Sue and be damned
Message:
Actually we see no mention of your name in Postie's, er, post, so it looks like you outed yourself Anth, and will have to bear the consequences.

We see no violation of Forum Rules either.

Don't worry, karma will have its way. We're sure Postie has done his share of toe-kissing, fawning and bole shri-ing so its only a matter of digging up the right dirt......

Forum Administrator, impartial to the last.

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Date: Tues, Mar 06, 2001 at 18:56:45 (GMT)
From: Postie
Email: None
To: Forum Admin
Subject: FA: Are you threatening me?
Message:
FA: 'Don't worry, karma will have its way. We're sure Postie has done his share of toe-kissing, fawning and bole shri-ing so its only a matter of digging up the right dirt......'

Karma indeed. Isn't it enough I have to put up with everyone's whining and complaining here. Surely this is hell for those who, like myself, who never really did any of that which you accuse me of and sort of knew from the beginning that it was all a divine lark and I was in on the joke because GMJ let me know it in a dream and I never really believed all that hype like Anth did and maybe I'll go back to the Lotus Tootsies one day so that's why I post anonomously. OK?

Postie
cc: Dewey Cheatum and Howe, Attorneys at Law

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Date: Tues, Mar 06, 2001 at 17:57:18 (GMT)
From: Postie
Email: None
To: AJW
Subject: AJW, so I can kiss the 10,000 Euros goodbye? (nt)
Message:
nt
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Date: Tues, Mar 06, 2001 at 18:01:49 (GMT)
From: AJW
Email: None
To: Postie
Subject: Yup. I spent it on a hitman. (nt)
Message:
who hit me. I was conned.
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Date: Tues, Mar 06, 2001 at 17:24:05 (GMT)
From: Disculta
Email: None
To: Postie
Subject: 'We can relax'
Message:
I give up! Were you the author, Postie Ji?

Got activated by that satdung that said: 'When we are trying to surrender our lives to our Lord, in satsang, service, and meditation, then there are no problems. We can relax' ... And what about when we aren't?

I'm sick in bed, on antibiotics, feeling very down. Lots of disjointed old memories are coming through in my hypnogogic half-sleep state. I'm noticing that there is still a part of me that feels as though something is terribly wrong when I'm this much out of commission (which I am quite often). I was journalling a bit and I realized that I have a very deep belief that says something like, if I'm NOT doing the right thing (doing being the active word), I CAN'T relax. I'm unable to do my usual very purposeful work right now, and I have been feeling so antsy just lying around.

I used to feel, as a premie, that if I wasn't doing satsang, service or meditation, I couldn't relax. I felt useless or unsafe - unsafe is really the word - at some deep level. I know I got this from my family, too. We were all world-servers. However, it got elevated to a paranoic art-form when I became a premie. It was somehow not okay to just do nothing, enjoy vegetating, be useless for a while. And somehow there was a great level of fear about it. It is interesting what Michael Dettmers says below about Will Shultz saying he had never felt so much fear in an organization. It gets programmed in at levels that are both gross and subtle, and when you consciously reject the gross fundamentalist fear stuff with your logical mind, you may still have the other subtle fears imprinted on the levels of the limbic brain. At least I think I do. I wouldn't notice it if I was full of beans and full-steam-ahead, but in my below-the-line state I am aware of the deep influences of the programming I received.

I am also really grateful for having left the cult so long ago and spent a lot of time unravelling these beliefs and deep imprints. I'm not really complaining about all this. The fact that I caught it is basically allowing it to dismantle. I am realizing that it's okay for me to do nothing. There is no goal to reach, no world that I have to save, no guru to please. If I owe anyone anything it is my own body, that deserves a break.

We can relax.

Love Disculta

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Date: Wed, Mar 07, 2001 at 09:03:22 (GMT)
From: Tonette
Email: None
To: Disculta
Subject: Mind-Body Connection ot
Message:
Dear Disculta,

What you are experiencing with your health could very well be linked to old trauma of some sort.

Have you ever considered complimenting traditional treatment with a holistic healer? Riiki might very well work some wonders rebalancing your aura or subtle energy. I'm sure you have thought of this but have you tried it?

Anyway, just a thought and my best to you. Tonette

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Date: Wed, Mar 07, 2001 at 00:44:09 (GMT)
From: Postie
Email: None
To: Disculta
Subject: 'We can relax' - YES!!!!!!!!!
Message:
Disculta,

I just reread your post and agree wholeheartedly. I hope you've spent the day doing nada/zilch. I think the idea of doing nothing = bad is deep hardwired. 'Idle hands are the Devil's workshop' springs to mind. It comes from a culture (if I may be so bold as to call it a culture) that was born of Church of England, Pilgrims, Calvinists, etc indoctrination.

The Italians have a phrase which I forget in Italian (La Dolce Far Niente may be close) that translates as 'the sweetness of doing nothing'. It sure seems they believe that in Italy. I went over to a friend's house one day and he and someone else were sort of aimlessly dissassembling a vintage Fiat. When I questioned their pace, I was quoted that phrase. It's pertinent here because when he said it, it sort of freaked me out like . . 'that's not right, you've got to be busy, you can't just do nothing'. On the way home I got pissed at myself at being so uptight and then relaxed into accepting 'the sweetness of doing nothing' as a quest, a goal.

I love to be in the garden and grow things but when I used work out there, I'd go at it like a pack animal to the point of exhaustion. Now, either because I have less time and energy or because I've let a little Dolce into my life, or both - I tend to garden a bit and then sit around and enjoy the creation and my own handiwork. It's sure better than working myself half to death and inspiration comes in those 'off' times when I'm doing nothing.

Take care,

Post-guiltie

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Date: Tues, Mar 06, 2001 at 18:23:39 (GMT)
From: Way
Email: None
To: Disculta
Subject: Old satsang letters
Message:
It's odd that Anth's past comes back to haunt him today. Just last weekend I was talking with an old friend on the phone. We were premies in the 70's and when I transfered to a new community we kept in touch with satsang letters. She still has all of my old letters. I have never seen them, but someday I will probably read them.

It will be interesting to see what has changed and what hasn't changed. I think the only thing that really has changed in me is the belief system about who Maharaji is and what enlightenment is. Basically, I feel like the same person I've been all along.

Anth, your editorial really wasn't too bad, could have been a lot worse. The letters Abi posted are really really bad.

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Date: Tues, Mar 06, 2001 at 19:26:00 (GMT)
From: AJW
Email: None
To: Way
Subject: Old satsang letters
Message:
Hi Way,

Yup. But I wrote stuff like that too Way. I daren't think what the one Kelly's got says.

When I was a worshipper of Captain Rawat, I was quite active propogating, giving satsang, and doing service. About three years ago, I was working on the editorial team of first 'Connect' magazine.

Over the years, I wrote lots of cultcrap. I'd found the Perfect Master. Twice a day, I sang, 'Our Lord is the Superior Power in person. I bow down before such a wonderful Lord.'

I believed it.

Because I was active and vocal when I was in the cult, it's natural to be active and vocal now I've left. It balances things up inside myself.

I probably attracted quite a few people into the cult one way or another. I also worked hard for years, and threw myself into keeping it going. Now I've realised it's a crock of shit, the least I can do is let those people who I influenced, know that I've changed my mind about the Captain and the holy snot. (Ooops there goes the baby.)

At least, by making our exit from the cult public, we're making it easier for others to follow after us. I really wonder if I'd ever have quit if I hadn't discovered EPO, and the Forum. They are a couple of websites that changed my life.

Anth on his way to the airport.

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Date: Tues, Mar 06, 2001 at 22:15:25 (GMT)
From: Kelly
Email: None
To: AJW
Subject: It's worse than you can imagine! nt
Message:
tee heee
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Date: Tues, Mar 06, 2001 at 19:56:39 (GMT)
From: Pat Conlon
Email: None
To: AJW
Subject: Letters: I'll show you mine if you show me yours
Message:
All of these old satsangs and letters of devotion to the Bratguru are indeed embarassing but they were all written a long time ago. Here is part of the only one that I ever kept.

Dear Maharaji,

First let me say thank you for your continuing kindness and care. The latest gifts of your time in the form of the events this year in North America and the weekly broadcasts have made me so happy. Thank you.

Most of the letters I've written to you in the past 28 years were never sent because I figured you get so many which are almost identical and it must get monotonous just to get 'thank you' notes all the time and I never have had any questions and there was never anything to tell you that you didn't already know.

(The rest of the letter is about the problems that I was having with the Church Ladies of Elan Vital. I criticized them for over a year before I realized that they were not to blame and that the rot started at the top. I then had to apologize to them. PWKs are not at fault. They have been brainwashed just as we all were.)

The most embarassing thing about his letter is the date that it was written - February 15th, 2000.

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Date: Tues, Mar 06, 2001 at 16:09:55 (GMT)
From: gerry
Email: None
To: The Real Elan Vital
Subject: It's Time, Elan Vital, In Fact it's Past Time
Message:
First, I want to thank and commend Abi for keeping EV's feet to the fire and her incredible bravery in sharing her story.

In a letter to Dettmers date October 19, 2000 Elan Vital wrote:

When the Mahatmas in India were released, each of them was asked if he or she had done anything wrong that they needed to account for. Jagdeo's response was negative (which may or may not be true). The person who interviewed Jagdeo, following the allegations made on the Internet, was the person who is responsible for the organization in India and the appropriate person to do so. This is different from when you were involved. Jagdeo was informed that if there were any truth to the allegations against him, he would face the legal consequences of his actions.

We believe it is important for us to bring the above directly to your attention.

Sincerely

Terry Yingling
For the Elan Vital PR Team

So are they moving on this? Almost six months now, when will Jagdeo be arrested?

Is EV India harboring a felon? Isn't this is crime in India?

What jurisdiction would Jagdeo be in? Let's start a letter writing campaign to the (hate to say it) 'proper authorities' to put some pressure on them.

Nobody likes to be associated with an alleged serial child molester who has acted with impunity for DECADES. How embarrassing and damaging.

For the sake of propriety, and to possibly avoid charges themselves, Elan Vital needs to submit Jagdeo for trial in any of the countries were he raped children. I would hope that the UK or the US would prosecute him. The US might be able to prosecute him on a federal charge, as he offended throughout the country--across state lines, that sort of thing.

No I don't think this issue is going to go away. Not by a long shot...

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Date: Tues, Mar 06, 2001 at 18:28:18 (GMT)
From: AJW
Email: None
To: gerry
Subject: It's Time, Elan Vital, In Fact it's Past Time
Message:
Hi gerry,

The only thing consistent about Elan Vital's behaviour on this topic is that it's been despicable. They have continually protected Jagdeo, lied, wriggled, evaded, thrown up smoke screens, threatened, hissed and squirmed.

They lied when they said they didn't know it was going on.

They lied when they said Maharaji wasn't aware of it.

They covered up for Jagdeo for years, and when the complaints got too loud, they limited him to touring in the Far East.

God only knows how many children he molested after his activities were reported. And, despite all the revelations, secret investigations within the cult, and reports from victims, he may still be up to his disgusting games.

The cult only care about one thing gerry, protecting Captain Rawat. They don't care about the victims. They don't even care about Jagdeo.

Well, the Captain is going to find out that the lives of Jagdeo's victims have a value too. If he thinks he's going to sail away free from the mess he's allowed Jagdeo to make, he's mistaken.

What comes around, goes around, as they say in Roehampton.

Anth the disgusted.

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Date: Tues, Mar 06, 2001 at 18:37:50 (GMT)
From: Susan
Email: None
To: AJW
Subject: Amen, Gerry and Anth. Well said both of you. (nt)
Message:
nt
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Date: Tues, Mar 06, 2001 at 14:43:41 (GMT)
From: Abi
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: Letters from DLM, '78 and '81
Message:
Hi,
I was just searching through my file on DLM trying to find the card that Charandand wrote to me after my father told him about Jagdeo. Charanand didn't mention it once of course and simply told me to practice knowledge and how LUCKY I was to have that gift. Sadly, although I kept it for over ten years I must have eventually thrown it out in a moment of raw revulsion for his lack of action. But I did find several letter written to me from DLM. Reading them now I find them pretty shocking. I also have a copy of two draft letters I wrote when I was in my early teens. The following is an unedited transcript of those letters.

The first letter comes with the DLM logo and is from Denver. Keep in mind that this letter was written to a primary school child and that this would have been clear from the childish scrawl of the letter they responded to.

14 September 1978
Abigail Bray
Sunspot
Amarda Road,
Cawband Torpoint
Cornwall
England

Dera Abigail,
Jai Satchitanand! Guru Maharaj Ji recieved your colorful letter and has asked me to respond and share satsang with you on His behalf. Whether you have actually received Knowledge or not, satsang is your food. What delicious food we are given to eat! We could have been given horrible medicine to heal our wounded hearts, but Guru Maharaj Ji gives us satsang - a warm river of Grace to bathe in. So, relax, and ask Guru Maharaj Ji to open your heart. And let's both let GMJ fill us up with His love - as I write this letter and as you read it.

The joy of loving GMJ is endless. He has given us so many ways to love Him and express our love for Him. He has created each one of us a little bit differently, and we each seem to express our love in a unique way. And He takes it all in and accepts whatever we give Him, as long as we are sincere and humble and honest. And even when we are not sincere, and humble and honest, I feel that GMJ is completely dedicated to teaching us to have those qualities. No matter how we are, He accepts us. It is too good to be true, and yet the more we each know of GMJ, the more we can see that all our dreams are true. I can't beleive that He is actually the one that I have been looking for. And He keeps showing me in such special, personal, intimate little ways that He really is!

I want to share with you an excerpt from GMJ's satsang at the Guru Puja festival in Tucson. He said:
It's all beyond words. Remember: When we use words, they are merely to get over the barrier of communication. I can never sit down at any satang and tell you what I'm really experiencing. It's impossible. My experience of Knowledge is way above and beyond what any words can ever put together. And I know what I've never been one grade above the ninth, but I know that I can go to 30,000 grades and still never be able to tell you in words. Because these words - these words can be turned into lies or can be turned into truth. That language that is so flexible that it can flip-flop 360 degrees either way you want it definitely never will be able to capture the expereince which is generated by Knolwedge within our hearts. And it's too bad! Of course it's too bad. And that's why everybody stops at 'In the beginning was the Word.' The 'Word'.

And so premies, can you imagine the heights, the mountains that we have climbed, when we recieve Knowledge? We have climbed the greatest mountain there could ever be. We have done the most that there could ever be. Yes! If you are surprised, don't be. You - if you have ever experienced Knowledge - have in fact experienced what even in thousands and thousands and thousands of lifetimes can never be experienced. You have climbed mountians more than Mt Everest could ever be. Mt Everest would be like a microscopic dent on what you have climbed. And all by GMJ's Grace.

And GMJ hasn't left you there and said, 'Here is your trail, buster; follow this,' but has lifted you above all those mountains, above all those doings, and put you into the complete heaven of Knowledge. And here are the humans. Here we are. Naive. 'No, I want to do it myself.'

And however naive and thick-headed we seem to be, He seems determined to make us see the 'light'!! He is so dedicated to us. He wants us so much to know what we have ben given and really use it. He wants us to really indulge in the pleasures of Knowledge. And they seem to be endless....

I am enclosing a photo of GMJ and Durga Ji enjoying the ride. I have also enclosed a satsang for you.

By GMJ's Grace, I hope that you can make it to Guru Puja in Dortmund. There is no limits to what He can do to your heart there - or now, for that matter!

Lots of love,

[signature]

Dot Procter

The enclosed satsang was from after arti at Tuscon and is basically a rather heavy handed push for Hans Jayanti. Remember all that stuff about having to go to the next festival. Be there or be Mind etc. I wont reproduce all of it but sections caught my eye.
blah, blah, blah, bah, blah
blah blah blah etc

And if there is a significane for Guru Puja, here it is: to pray to GMJ to help you (Premies cry out, 'Help!') You have to really say that from your heart. Because if you keep saying it verbally, the fire and the police and the paramedics might be here. But if you say if from your heart, GMJ will be there to help you, instead of this world.

[If only the police had arrived. Give me the help of the world anyday.]

blah de blah de blah

GMJ will always be there, because GMJ is everwhere. Or everything is in GMJ, you know; whichever way. If you believe Jagdeo's philosophy it's one way and if you believe in Gurcharnanand's philosophy it's the other way.'

[Shortly before I received this reply I had been sexually abused by Jagdeo. Many years later Gurucharnanad was told and nothing happened. They can shove their philosophies.]

blah, de blah, de blah

'So I hope I'll see you very soon. Till then keep doing satsang, service and meditation. Maintain the highest level of that faith in you. Put everythig you've got in there. Because if you don't, it might be missing one step too many, and you might fall from the ladder never to regain, never to be anymore. So don't make that mistake.'

[Proud to have fallen, working on burning the ladder, woods got dry rot, should burn fast.]

blah blah blah.

END

These are unedited drafts from letters I wrote to GMJ in 1981 written in coloured felt pen with lots of hearts and flowers everywhere. I guess I was very brainwashed. I got Knowledge when I was 13. My whole life was GMJ. I still have the little K package. In it 'He' says 'So whatever extra you have got, give it to me. And the extra thing you have got is your mind. Give it to me.' Now, looking back, I can honestly say I lost my mind.

Darling GMJ
you are my only friend you are my mother, father and lover, you are the Comforter. Please let me surrender to you. I wish I could, I know I can if you help me, Thank you for comming for us again, we need you very much.

All I want is to love you to experience you, you are the best experience in the universe, you are everything. Please help me I need to feel you. Please can I be with you every second thats all I want. I want to be with you, no-one ele can give me love but you. Help me Maharaj Ji, I'm hopeless, I need you. Help me dear Lord. Give me faith in you.

I don't want to be in this world anymore its got an empty experience and the experience of you is amazing. I really don't want to keep on failing I want to make you laugh with joy.

All I can do is pray to you because I'm hopeless. Please give me strength, please give me devotion.

You are so beautiful I wish I could hug you put my arms around you I want to be with you, I need you so much. HELP ME!

I LOVE YOU
help me to be happy
'Your love keeps lifting me higher and higher'. I love you! I wish I could hug you dear Lord.
from a hopeless premie
Abi
3 Higher Anderton Rd
Millbrook
Nr Torpoint
Cornwall
UK

(please read this letter).

The other letter I wrote:

Dear Guru Maharaji Ji,
I'm sorry but I can't live with out you Oh please help you can do anything. It would take you no trouble at all to...

HELP ME Guru Maharaj Ji

please help me I'm your worst premie please make me be with you all the time. I need you. You are the only one who can save me and satisfy me oh I don't want to waste this preciouse life of yours.

oh please all merciful Lord have mercy and take me until I'm gone don't let me look for satisfaction any where else Oh please just let us be together.
HELP! I love you and I really wish could hug and cry on your shoulder, let me be with you I'm so very hopless
(from
Abi Bray
3 Higher Anderton Rd Millbrook
Nr Torpoint Conrwall)

Please read this letter Guru Maharaji Ji. Please understand and help your awful premie, I love you.
I just want to look into your eyes and feel you. Please Guru Maharaj Ji Please, please, please!

I need you so badly.

END

I guess I must have sent a letter because I got a reply. Here it is:

2 March 1981
Dear Abi,
jai Satchitanand,
Guru Maharaj Ji has asked for your letter of prayer to be answered with the preciouse gift of satsang. Perhaps each day we see how lost we are and yet if we just stop for one second and remeber that we have GMJ, that He came into this world to save each one of us. It's our chance now to beg Him to show us how to let go and trust Him.

'I know that Grace comes and completes the destiny of this life. I know we can all be saved. And not ten years from now. And not twenty years from now. And not when we die. But now. Now is the time we need to be saved and now is when we have to be saved.

Everything makes sense after that. I feel that gratitude. I know why that gratitute is there. I feel that love and I know why that love is there. I look at my life and all of a sudden it's incredible. It's like looking at an instant photograph. You can see it. You know why you're here. It makes so much sense. And I love it.
And from that love comes a love for you. Yes. I love you. I love you because I love my life. I love you because I love myself. And I love you more because I love that Creator that's created you, and me.
And really we are all in teh same boat. We all really, really, really need to be saved. Now. We can be saved - now.
Let that feeling come out, let that flow a little bit. Open up a little bit. Accept it. Look at it from a very simple perspective. 'Okay Creator, I give up. It's your show. You take over. I've tried it and messed it up. Now, let's see if You can do it.'
And it's incredible. Because you see that Creator just come in and shape this life right around it a meaning, give it a purpose, light it up.
...So, there it is. The whole world is incredibly beautiful because the Creator created it. There's no more to say that that, really. 'O creator, let me see that glory that You have created. Because I know You're perfect. Anything You do is perfect, Let me see that perfectness. Let me see that perfectness within me. Let me search within me. Let me find You within me. Because You are onmipresent.'
-GMJ
Kansas City, 29 November, 1980

Remember that His blessings are always with you and that He is giving you the strength to continue.

[no signature, no name]

END

I tried to kill myself a year later.


But now I want a direct reply about another matter that has been covered up for too long. Take note EV. I am not going away.

Abi-the-girl-who-grew-up-ANGRY

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Date: Wed, Mar 07, 2001 at 03:58:12 (GMT)
From: Helen
Email: None
To: Abi
Subject: Letters from DLM, '78 and '81
Message:
Yes, he supported you feeling crazy and wanting to kill yourself. It benefitted him actually for you to feel hopeless and helpless. That is completely disgusting. As my husband said the other night, talking about cults of all kinds, 'how is that any different from an abusive, addicted, or neglectful parent?' This cult offered shelter, salvation, etc, but it was just abuse, plain and simple.

I hope that you have some ongoing kind of support (besides here) to let out your rage. And rage you should (IMO). But I don't want you to let that rage swallow you up, I hope you can let it out. Sorry if this sounds lame.
Helen

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Date: Wed, Mar 07, 2001 at 04:27:22 (GMT)
From: Abi
Email: None
To: Helen
Subject: Letters from DLM, '78 and '81
Message:
Dear Helen,
I do feel slightly pissed-off but I'm able to separate all of this from the rest of my life. I do have people around me who understand but I appreciate the support from this forum especially. I worked through a lot of the anger sometime ago. I guess I don't feel very comfortable with being positioned as a 'victim' though. Yes it was very freaky and abusive but I survived and achieved.

Thanks for the reply,

Abi

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Date: Wed, Mar 07, 2001 at 22:14:53 (GMT)
From: Helen
Email: None
To: Abi
Subject: Letters from DLM, '78 and '81
Message:
Good on you as they say down under!
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Date: Wed, Mar 07, 2001 at 00:36:45 (GMT)
From: Bin Liner
Email: None
To: Abi
Subject: What a hard hearted fucker.....
Message:
...he couldn't even take the time to scrawl his own signature to a child's letter .

Let alone do any of the multitude of things which a REAL benefactor would have done after reading such heartfelt letters .

Even if it was just PR.

GRRRRRRRRR.

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Date: Tues, Mar 06, 2001 at 22:11:23 (GMT)
From: Kelly
Email: None
To: Abi
Subject: Sympathy and support, I'm with you.
Message:
Oh Abi,
what a heart rending post, thanks for sharing and baring all that.
When I first posted last Nov, I was still only vaguely aware of the nature and extent of Jagdeo’s crimes. I hadn’t read your story or Susan’s. I was still very caught up in the emotional drama of my own experience of waking up from the cult trance, in fact too caught up to respond properly to anyone who asked me about him, susan included….In fact, at the time, I wished I hadn’t mentioned him at all.

However, since that time I have been searching my memory and also wondering what I could do to find out more or help in any way. So far, all I have managed to ascertain for certain, is that he is no longer in the Delhi ashram. I spent a lot of time there between 1995 and 1998 and saw a lot of him…often because there were only a handful of people there (apart from the regular ashram residents). So I was able to witness the relatively privileged lifestyle he enjoyed, and the respect he was accorded and also, it has to be said, the demanding and arrogant way he treated the simple humble premies, who basically waited on him hand and foot. He was always given special treatment. It puzzled me that he stayed in the same area as I did, and not with the other Mahatmas…..There must be some story behind that.

I’m afraid I haven’t done much yet to investigate this further, but one thing I am sure of is that the chicken has come home to roost, and maybe a sort of justice has been done, in that he has been outcast and sent back to his family in his 70’s and in poor health….and, which is most important…he knows why.

Unfortunately, I think it is entirely possible, bearing in mind his exalted and respected position in the Delhi ashram, that he was, until only a year or so ago, in a position to continue his sexual exploitation.

I personally witnessed a couple of things that really worry me now, and I think there’s a lot more that can be done to find out the truth about how long this man was allowed to continue his paedophile activities. It is well known that without treatment, and even with treatment, these people do not change their habits.

I will e-mail you and Susan with some more information…Give me a few days I’m busy with lawyers etc!

In the meantime I send you love and empathy…I too was sexually abused.

Kelly

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Date: Wed, Mar 07, 2001 at 03:31:21 (GMT)
From: Abi
Email: None
To: Kelly
Subject: Sympathy and support, I'm with you.
Message:
Dear Kelly,
thanks for the understanding reply. I was very touched. It's difficult facing how messed up I was by the whole thing.

It does sicken me that Jagdeo has until very recently been been waited on by premies. Do you know anything more about him? His full name, his background, where he is now? Who was in charge of the Delhi 'sham?

Also, what did you witness there that made you feel uncomfortable?

It's horrible to think of but there is a very strong chance he's abused a great number of girls. We owe it to those girls who can't speak out to make this whole issue one that EV can't ignore any longer.

I'm sorry to hear that you were sexually abused too. I guess for me the distinction between victim and survivor is an important one. Did you ever read The Courage to Heal?

Thank you again for your support.

Abi

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Date: Wed, Mar 07, 2001 at 08:58:50 (GMT)
From: Kelly
Email: None
To: Abi
Subject: Sympathy and support, I'm with you.
Message:
Hi Abi,
I know the answers to some of your questions, and I will do my best to find out more. I'll contact you off-line about this.
Yes I also consider myself a survivor...I even survived Rawat's cult!
I have read 'The Courage to Heal' it helped me a lot at the time.
I'll be in touch with you and Susan soon. Like Anth, I'm going away for a few days!
Take care
Love Kelly
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Date: Tues, Mar 06, 2001 at 20:04:12 (GMT)
From: Been There
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: Dot's Drivel
Message:
What impresses (or depresses) me most is Dot's drivel. Dot is a wonderful, intelligent human being. It makes me wonder, did her buds, like Rosie Lee, write the same type of drivel? I'm embarassed to say I did. I think we all did.

I sent drivel letters home from Prem Nagar to my parents. They were pretty freaked out by what I wrote, but polite. They asked me, 'Is is it 'hashram' or 'ashram'? (I had written 'hashram' because I thought that's how it was spelled -- which is probably close to the truth. It probably was a 'hashram'.)

My mom was a journalism major and had worked for Time Magazine. She was appalled at the stuff I was writing. At one point she got a hold of some of DLM publications and thrust them in my face and said something like, 'What is this garbage? Why are you reading this garbage?' questioning both content and lousy writing.

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Date: Tues, Mar 06, 2001 at 19:34:58 (GMT)
From: Cynthia
Email: None
To: Abi and Susan
Subject: I'm Outraged and Saddened by this...
Message:
Hi Abi and Susan,

I was in my 20's when I wrote to goomraji everyday. It wasn't until I came to this website that I discovered what Jagdeo had done to each of you.

Dot Proctor and Sally Reeder were both assigned the ''service'' of answering letters to goomraji.

I wrote everyday, and received a response from either of the two women above at least once per week.

I still have the resonses, but they are the same old drivel, surrender to GJM, etc.

As you may or may not know, I was sexually abused by my father as a child, and also by a best friend's father.

Even though my letters to goomraji were written because of the awful ''forced abortion'' episode in my life as a premie, my experience in that particular situation doesn't come close to what you suffered Abi and Susan.

Many people just do not understand (unless they've experienced it) what sexual abuse does to a child; Susan, I consider a 15 year old cult member a child, too. This abuse in the context of a cult, being a victim of someone in such a powerful position as Jagdeo was, and of course goomraji, at the time, is beyond my comprehension.

I had it bad, yes. But at least when I wrote to goomraji, I was in my early 20s--a young adult woman.

You go Abi and Susan. I am behind you 100% in whatever you choose to do about this. That is my promise to you.

I have many contacts here in Vermont, but there's one who is especially distinguished in the matters of child abuse; she's an expert and nationally renouned.

If you ever want some advice from her, email me, and she would definitely help you in any way she can...she's just that kind of woman.

sylviecyn@yahoo.com is my hotmail account and I welcome you both to write to me. If you do write, I will resond via my private email account if that's okay. I just don't want to post it here, so the EV GOONS can get hold of it!

EV MONITORS: WE ARE NOT GOING TO GIVE UP ON THIS COVER UP!
YOU MAY THINK EV HAS RESOLVED THIS ISSUE BUT YOU HAVEN'T!

WATCH OUT!! THERE ARE MORE THAN A FEW EX-PREMIES WHO ARE VERY DISTURBED BY YOURS AND MAHARAJI'S LACK OF ACTION TAKEN ABOUT THIS EXTREMELY SERIOUS ISSUE. SEXUAL ABUSE OF CHILDREN BY A MAHTAMA, THEN HARBORED BY MAHARAJI!!!

Ex-Premies: Isn't it something, how Charanand always played a part in helping to cover up goomraji's wrong-doings?

I'm royally pissed! Abi and Susan, big hugs to you and all my love,

Cynthia

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Date: Wed, Mar 07, 2001 at 03:42:22 (GMT)
From: Abi
Email: None
To: Cynthia
Subject: I'm Outraged and Saddened by this...
Message:
Dear Cynthia,
thanks for your support. I read your post about the forced abortion and Charanand's part and it sickened me. I always thought that he was a real saint. Ha!

When my father told him and all I got back was a personal card full of satsang it really unsettled my sense of reality.

That's awful that you've been sexually abused. You must be a very strong woman to have survived.

I will contact you directly and we can discuss all of this further. I don't like the feeling of being watched by EV.

take care

Abi

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Date: Tues, Mar 06, 2001 at 19:43:34 (GMT)
From: Cynthia
Email: None
To: Abi and Susan
Subject: P.S. To Abi and Susan...
Message:
Hi again,

I also want to add that I understand the difficult healing process that takes place under these situations.

If you want to email me, or talk on the phone, I'll give you my number. That's if you also would like to just have some peer support; I've had extensive training in peer-counseling, group therapy, and individual therapy, so I DO know what it's like, just not in the context of a cult. I also did a stint with the Sexual Assault Crisis Team, but at the time it was too intense for me to continue....most of the calls were/are from adult survivors of child sexual abuse, not rapes that happened that day...

I want to offer my support in any way possible.

Damn those bastards! How could they harbor a heinous criminal all these years!

Be well,
Hope to hear from you,
Love,
Cynthia

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Date: Tues, Mar 06, 2001 at 19:16:28 (GMT)
From: Pat Conlon
Email: None
To: Abi
Subject: Thank you Abi for some naked raw truth
Message:
I am so glad that I never kept copies of all my letters declaring my love for the urug. Too embarassing!

None of what you say comes as a surprise. It is exactly what I expected from the selfish bastard of a Bratguru.

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Date: Tues, Mar 06, 2001 at 18:52:43 (GMT)
From: Joe
Email: None
To: Abi
Subject: Dot Proctor/Message to Elan Vital
Message:
In defense of Dot, I think she was just repeating what Maharaji said, which, at that time, was that we were worthless pieces of shit, and only Maharaji can save us. But what is amazing is that Dot Proctor was an official spokesperson for Elan Vital and stated, in writing that Maharaji was both our creator and our savior, when she said:.

The joy of loving GMJ is endless. He has given us so many ways to love Him and express our love for Him. He has created each one of us a little bit differently, and we each seem to express our love in a unique way.

And when she says:

Perhaps each day we see how lost we are and yet if we just stop for one second and remember that we have GMJ, that He came into this world to save each one of us. It's our chance now to beg Him to show us how to let go and trust Him.

So, a message to Elan Vital. Dot Proctor, and official employee and spokesperson for Elan Vital, has written letters in her capacity as a spokesperson for Elan Vital, claiming that Maharaji, whom your website claims is an 'ordinary person' and never claimed to be God, is our creator, and that he is our savior.

So, how can Elan Vital officially in 1978 and 1981 claim that Maharaji is both the creator and the savior, and also contend that Maharaji has never claimed to be God? In the least, it's clear that Elan Vital, the non-profit 'church,' made just such claims, in writing.

I would suggest writing to Elan Vital and asking if they now disavow the things that Dot Proctor wrote.

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Date: Tues, Mar 06, 2001 at 19:11:07 (GMT)
From: la-ex
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: Dot Proctor married Mark Bergeron,lives in DC.nt
Message:
nt
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Date: Wed, Mar 07, 2001 at 19:36:31 (GMT)
From: Joe
Email: None
To: la-ex
Subject: I wonder what Dot would say about this now?
Message:
Have you talked to Dot recently? I heard she is an artist. I wonder how Dot would rationalize this if she is still a premie. Would she say she was just confused, and so concept-laden that she wrote those things? Would she also let Maharaji off the hook? Do you know how to contact her?
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Date: Thurs, Mar 08, 2001 at 04:03:17 (GMT)
From: la-ex
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: Joe,Re:I wonder what Dot would say about this now?
Message:
Joe-Yes, Dot does different types of artwork most of the time...I don't think she has to work.
She married Mark Bergeron, a pretty nice guy with a good sense of humor.
They are heavily involved, been to Amaroo, and think the workshops etc., are 'really beautiful'.

I don't think you'd get too far with Dot...she seems like a 'go down with the ship Lifer'...

They live in one of the suburbs of DC, in Maryland.

la-ex

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Date: Tues, Mar 06, 2001 at 17:20:04 (GMT)
From: AJW
Email: None
To: Abi
Subject: Letters from DLM, '78 and '81
Message:
Hi Abi,

Those letters you wrote reminded me of some very similar stuff that I wrote. And I was much older than you and should have known better. You were only thirteen. You're right. We'd really lost a very important part of our minds and had got our 'love' for the 'creator' all muddled up with out 'love' for Captain Rawat.

I'm still sorting it out, but feel very strongly that I've got out of the dead end I'd drove up in 1973.

The further I'm away from it, the worse it looks. The stuff that's been coming out about Rawat being aware of what Jagdeo was up to, then, after the complaints built up, sending him off to the Far East to carry on out of the way. It's really disgusting.

When you add this to the other revelations that are coming out about what the Captain's like in his private life, it paints a picture of a sad, fucked up, person.

It's good to feel the wind begin to blow back at them. I hope it turns into a tornado and picks up a few bricks on the way.

I think things are going very positively at the moment.

Your friend,
Anth

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Date: Wed, Mar 07, 2001 at 04:41:39 (GMT)
From: Abi
Email: None
To: AJW
Subject: Letters from DLM, '78 and '81
Message:
Hi Anth,
yes it was a bit odd... It's scary looking back at who I was - a total teenage fanatic and before that a child fanatic. I thought Rawat was God, we all did. My bedroom walls were covered with posters of him, I had a large alter, I meditated for two hours a day. I meditated on the way to school on the bus. I organised childrens satsang at school. I prayed almost contantly for protection from a world I had been taught was run by the evil Mr Mind. I was a fanatic, totally brainwashed. Scary. Horrible. But I got out by myself. Nietzsche helped a lot and so did feminism.

take care,
let me know how it is going.

Abi

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Date: Tues, Mar 06, 2001 at 16:58:00 (GMT)
From: Brian
Email: brian@ex-premie.org
To: Abi
Subject: Thank you, Abi
Message:
Thank you for keeping those letters, Abi. And thank you for posting them.

The girl who wrote them waited a long time for them to be read by someone who cares what she felt.

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Date: Tues, Mar 06, 2001 at 15:38:16 (GMT)
From: Jean-Michel
Email: None
To: Abi
Subject: Do you agree adding this to the Jagdeo file
Message:
on the Jagdeo Issue page ?

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Date: Tues, Mar 06, 2001 at 18:04:38 (GMT)
From: Susan
Email: None
To: Jean-Michel
Subject: an idea JM and my OUTRAGE
Message:
I already wrote to Abi about this, but these letters really would be 10000000 times more powerful if SCANNED and posted. Recall how old Abi was a child writing these. In a child's handwriting, I think the impact would knock the socks off anyone who reads them ( as if it doesn't anyway!)

The responses I think should be scanned too. I hope the two of you get in touch to coordinate this ( but we can leave out the synchronicity ).

I am filled with FURY.....RAGE.....about what happened to premie kids. Recall, when I was molested, I was 15. I basically got away before he was able to anything but fondle me. When I recieved Knowledge, I was 13, and I had a choice about it, my mom wasn't a premie, and I was 'rebelling' my stepfather was a premie, but I he was a total flake and only a premie for a nanosecond, long enough to get me in. What happened to me was bad, but it was nothing compared to Abi, and others.

These premie kids believed in Rawat in the way most Christian children believe in Jesus. When Abi wrote to her master, she believed in a way only a child could. This is a whole other level of spiritual abuse. I am in touch with other former premie kids, some abused by Jagdeo, and the abuse, both of being sucked into a cult as an innocent, and of being abused so seriously by the person you trusted as your beloved Guru Maharaj Ji's 'great soul' is as devastating as any abuse could possibly be. He abused the bodies, minds, and spirits of these innocent children, who were only in this cult because their parents had made a terrible choice, the kids had no choice, and they had no choice about Jagdeo, and they sufferred then and they suffering the scars of being attacked by this terrible criminal excuse for a human being.

Elan Vital and Maharaj Ji....show some f***ing guts and come clean and deal with this honestly. You are going to have to sooner or later.

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Date: Wed, Mar 07, 2001 at 04:05:14 (GMT)
From: Abi
Email: None
To: Susan
Subject: an idea JM and my OUTRAGE
Message:
Hi Susan,

the more I think about the warped sense of reality we lived with the more sickening it seems. I just found some '81 letters from a premie child Julia Pickett who lived in Exeter and they are full of so much of that stuff. She was teased so much at school for being 'different'. She was so devoted. I was too. In a way we were persecuted. Also found some '80 letters from a boy called Atul Patel who lived in Long Beach, California. They make me cry. I wonder what became of him. He writes to me: 'To me GMJ is everything my mother, father, brother...I'n a way if the whole world teases you it doesn't matter as long as we have GMJ to protect us. My hobbies are sports. If you have GMJ in your life everything is beautiful, if you don't then everything is just horrible. [...] Did you go to holi in Rome? If you did tell me everything about it. jai Sat Chit Anand, your pen pal Atul.' The sense that Rawat was actually our real and only mother and father was encouraged.

I also found my old autograph book from 1980. It's full of 'I love you maharaj Ji!'. My mother gave it to me. She wrote 'Roses are Red, Violets are Blue, You are a premie and Maharaj Ji loves you!' A friend called Dania Shaw wrote 'fall from a tree top, fall from above, fall from a mountain, but don't fall in love, except for Maharaj Ji'. And from Julia it was all By Guru Maharaj Ji grace JSCA. I even have Rajeshwaz's autograph. Yuk! From another premie girl Anjah Sagar who lived in Camden Town it was also JSCA, etc.

Poor warped kids that we were.

I'll try and scan the lot along with some photos. I had a letter from Sally Reeder too which was especially freaky because she wrote that GMJ made teh sky and the ocean and the world for us to enjoy etc. There was no ambiguity about the fact that everyone thought he was God.

I hate to think of the amount of times I kissed his feet!

take care

Abi

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Date: Wed, Mar 07, 2001 at 03:53:44 (GMT)
From: la-ex
Email: None
To: Susan
Subject: Shouldn't these Child issues be reported to...
Message:
any venue that is allowing the maha to speak these days?

Especially since it is stated that any child of 8 years old and above is welcome at a program?

Why else would an 8 year old child want to come to a program?
Would they really want to listen to maha?
Would they understand him?(does anyone, for that matter?)

I would say that it is to get them comfortable with the idea of listening to m, much the same as children get used to going to church or temple.
They may not understand, but it gets them comfortable with the idea and the environment, so that later on its easier to make the jump into it...its familiar...

The only people who seem to come around these days are people in relationships with premies, or related to them...
It makes sense for maha to start the 'Maharaji Youth Corp'...it serves as a reservoir for possible future recruits...

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Date: Tues, Mar 06, 2001 at 19:58:30 (GMT)
From: cq
Email: None
To: Susan and Abi
Subject: How to say it? Bravo? Kudos? Well said? Not enough
Message:
- but somehow I want to register my appreciation of your posts.

This whole issue really gets to the nitty-gritty of accountability.

You both suffered a lot more than many premies, and that in itself is bad enough, but one thing I'm sure of for everyone who comes into contact with him - the legacy of M's trip is ultimately suffering.

EV have for too long got away with trying to sweep the facts under the carpet. Here we have a clear example of how their current sales-pitch totally contradicts the facts of what they and their spokesperson once said.

Trying to deny it ever happened will prove to be their nemesis.

and though it's not enough, ... Bravo, Kudos and more power to your elbow.

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Date: Tues, Mar 06, 2001 at 17:53:42 (GMT)
From: Postie
Email: None
To: Abi
Subject: Abi, thanks for sharing that
Message:
Abi, thanks for sharing this personal nightmare. A couple of telling phrases jumped out at me.

This from Dot Proctor, one of M's official letter writers:
'And however naive and thick-headed we seem to be, He seems determined to make us see the light!!'
Now that was sweet of Dot, wasn't it? I wonder how many identical letters were sent out on those IBM Selectric word processors they had on the 6th floor of the Kittredge Building.

And this from M explains a lot:
'My experience of Knowledge is way above and beyond what any words can ever put together. And I know that I've never been one grade above the ninth, but I know that I can go to 30,000 grades and still never be able to tell you in words. Because these words - these words can be turned into lies or can be turned into truth.'
So this explains the enigmatic yet contradictory nature of The Speaker's little talks. They're only words and us mere mortals could never understand so he can say anything and it is OK.

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Date: Wed, Mar 07, 2001 at 00:45:30 (GMT)
From: Disculta
Email: None
To: Postie
Subject: Accountability is unavoidable
Message:
Dear Elan Vital,

The trouble with spin is that it can get you into a vortex. Anyone from EV who is reading this, JUMP SHIP soon if you don't want to be clearly seen to be part of this conspiracy of child abuse, because it is going to come out in detail.

I was one of the office-wallahs who sent out thousands of those letters in various languages on the 6th floor of the Kittredge building (and later in Miami).

Love Disculta-whose-back-still-hurts

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