Jim -:- Before I go to bed, this is so funny -- and OT -:- Fri, Mar 16, 2001 at 08:12:53 (GMT)

__ salam -:- Well after you get out of bed -- and OT -:- Sat, Mar 17, 2001 at 00:20:31 (GMT)

__ __ Dermot -:- Well after you get out of bed -- and OT -:- Sat, Mar 17, 2001 at 02:49:34 (GMT)

__ __ __ Dermot -:- Kabul bomb blast...today -:- Sat, Mar 17, 2001 at 16:32:02 (GMT)

__ __ Jim -:- As a feminist, I cannot condone the Taleban -:- Sat, Mar 17, 2001 at 00:37:28 (GMT)

__ __ __ Thelma -:- As a self-made woman with new silicone tits -:- Sat, Mar 17, 2001 at 03:10:45 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ salam -:- I suggest you lot go and read a bit of history -:- Sat, Mar 17, 2001 at 10:26:46 (GMT)

__ Jethro -:- It is funny and also perfidious since -:- Fri, Mar 16, 2001 at 16:26:56 (GMT)

__ Sandy -:- What kind of a world is this anyhow? you ask... -:- Fri, Mar 16, 2001 at 13:33:31 (GMT)

__ AJW -:- Fuck the Buddhas Face. -:- Fri, Mar 16, 2001 at 12:43:52 (GMT)

__ __ sumo boy -:- Fuck the Buddhas Face. -:- Fri, Mar 16, 2001 at 14:02:39 (GMT)

__ __ Sandy -:- Not to mention... -:- Fri, Mar 16, 2001 at 13:59:15 (GMT)

__ __ __ Jim -:- ***EXTRA! EXTRA! SANDY QUOTES WISE MAN*** -:- Fri, Mar 16, 2001 at 15:22:27 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ Sandy -:- ***EXTRA! EXTRA! SANDY QUOTES WISE MAN*** -:- Fri, Mar 16, 2001 at 15:56:27 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ AJW -:- Nice to see Jim and Sandy getting on at last. (nt) -:- Fri, Mar 16, 2001 at 16:27:06 (GMT)

__ __ __ Jim -:- What is this? A self-righteous circle jerk? -:- Fri, Mar 16, 2001 at 14:20:19 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ Sandy -:- No, it's a self-righteous attempt by you to be -:- Fri, Mar 16, 2001 at 16:08:37 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ Pat Conlon -:- Sandy, I hate to spoil Jim's fun but he is -:- Sat, Mar 17, 2001 at 03:17:29 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ Sandy -:- Sandy, I hate to spoil Jim's fun but he is -:- Sat, Mar 17, 2001 at 14:52:40 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Pat Conlon -:- Sandy, ''stooping to use emotions'' -:- Sat, Mar 17, 2001 at 18:41:07 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Sandy -:- Amiable personalities -:- Sat, Mar 17, 2001 at 21:32:28 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Jim -:- Of all the things I've ever been accused of ...... -:- Sat, Mar 17, 2001 at 16:46:19 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Sandy -:- Pat, notice how accurate information shuts him up. -:- Sat, Mar 17, 2001 at 17:39:04 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Pat Conlon -:- Pat, the sentimental old Irish fool wishes -:- Sat, Mar 17, 2001 at 18:46:53 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Jim -:- Hey, Pat, sounds great -- mediate! -:- Sat, Mar 17, 2001 at 20:51:04 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Pat Conlon -:- Jim, you're such a softie -:- Sat, Mar 17, 2001 at 21:36:16 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ AJW -:- No Buddhists No Cry. -:- Fri, Mar 16, 2001 at 15:21:26 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ Dermot -:- small point Anth... -:- Fri, Mar 16, 2001 at 18:27:15 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ Bin Liner -:- The 'Irish' didn't blow up Nelson's -:- Fri, Mar 16, 2001 at 16:20:48 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ AJW -:- Well they weren't English (nt) -:- Fri, Mar 16, 2001 at 16:23:42 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ Jim -:- No Buddhists No Cry. -:- Fri, Mar 16, 2001 at 15:29:33 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ AJW -:- There's grit in the dahl Jim. -:- Fri, Mar 16, 2001 at 16:15:36 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Jim -:- Hey, don't blame the messenger -:- Fri, Mar 16, 2001 at 16:25:28 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ AJW -:- Saddham Hussein slept on our sofa. -:- Fri, Mar 16, 2001 at 16:35:45 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ salam -:- Am watching -:- Sat, Mar 17, 2001 at 00:07:00 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Jim -:- Fine but he owes me money, not much but still.... -:- Fri, Mar 16, 2001 at 16:44:22 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ AJW -:- Fine but he owes me money, not much but still.... -:- Fri, Mar 16, 2001 at 17:07:59 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Jim -:- More, Anth, give me more -:- Fri, Mar 16, 2001 at 17:15:05 (GMT)

__ Pat Conlon -:- Thank Christ I'm not a Muslim- by Jihad! NT -:- Fri, Mar 16, 2001 at 10:15:57 (GMT)

__ __ AJW -:- Think again Pat. -:- Fri, Mar 16, 2001 at 12:48:53 (GMT)

__ __ __ Pat Conlon -:- Holy Jihad, Anth - that was a joke -:- Fri, Mar 16, 2001 at 19:04:25 (GMT)

__ __ __ Jim -:- Yes, me too. I also suffer from Taliban-envy -:- Fri, Mar 16, 2001 at 14:34:05 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ AJW -:- It's all about 'Respect' Jim. -:- Fri, Mar 16, 2001 at 16:03:13 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ Jim -:- Come on! -:- Fri, Mar 16, 2001 at 16:15:37 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ AJW -:- Come on! -:- Fri, Mar 16, 2001 at 16:21:39 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Jim -:- This is one messy way to argue -:- Fri, Mar 16, 2001 at 16:29:07 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ AJW -:- This is one messy way to argue -:- Fri, Mar 16, 2001 at 16:59:49 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Sandy -:- Doesn't have to be messy -:- Fri, Mar 16, 2001 at 17:33:30 (GMT)

__ Brian Smith -:- very moooooving post Jim, only in the name of God -:- Fri, Mar 16, 2001 at 09:02:37 (GMT)

__ __ Jim -:- It was on CNN's main page last night -:- Fri, Mar 16, 2001 at 14:36:42 (GMT)

__ __ __ Brian Smith -:- Now that's even funnier, I am laughing harder -:- Fri, Mar 16, 2001 at 17:06:59 (GMT)

__ Jim -:- BTW, this is legit -- nor the Onion, CNN (nt) -:- Fri, Mar 16, 2001 at 08:24:56 (GMT)

Erika -:- Hi -:- Fri, Mar 16, 2001 at 07:32:34 (GMT)

__ Joe -:- This sounds like rank revisionism to me -:- Sat, Mar 17, 2001 at 04:37:31 (GMT)

__ __ Francesca -:- You, you are spot on with that one -:- Sat, Mar 17, 2001 at 17:18:47 (GMT)

__ TED Farkel -:- Erika,TED'S gonna FALL in Love with you if you... -:- Sat, Mar 17, 2001 at 02:38:03 (GMT)

__ __ Erika -:- Erika,TED'S gonna FALL in Love with you if you... -:- Sat, Mar 17, 2001 at 03:07:47 (GMT)

__ Bin Liner -:- Hello Erika . Ever thought he was nice .. -:- Sat, Mar 17, 2001 at 00:21:34 (GMT)

__ __ Erika -:- Hello Erika . Ever thought he was nice .. -:- Sat, Mar 17, 2001 at 03:09:26 (GMT)

__ Jim -:- Not to freak you out or anything ..... -:- Fri, Mar 16, 2001 at 23:47:30 (GMT)

__ __ Erika -:- Not to freak you out or anything ..... -:- Sat, Mar 17, 2001 at 02:00:16 (GMT)

__ __ __ Jim -:- Hey, wild guess -- are you 'OP' by chance? -:- Sat, Mar 17, 2001 at 03:08:35 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ Erika -:- Hey, wild guess -- are you 'OP' by chance? -:- Sat, Mar 17, 2001 at 03:10:50 (GMT)

__ donner -:- Hi -:- Fri, Mar 16, 2001 at 22:27:19 (GMT)

__ __ Jim -:- excellent post, donner (nt) -:- Fri, Mar 16, 2001 at 23:35:42 (GMT)

__ __ Erika -:- Hi -:- Fri, Mar 16, 2001 at 23:30:55 (GMT)

__ __ __ Francesca -:- DARSHAN??? Don't quite get it -:- Sat, Mar 17, 2001 at 03:17:01 (GMT)

__ __ __ La-ex -:- Erica,if you took the 'K' vow,you must have... -:- Sat, Mar 17, 2001 at 01:53:55 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ Hal -:- The vow -:- Sat, Mar 17, 2001 at 17:22:06 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ Erika -:- Erica,if you took the 'K' vow,you must have... -:- Sat, Mar 17, 2001 at 03:18:55 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ gerry -:- Erica has a problem telling the truth -:- Sat, Mar 17, 2001 at 15:56:39 (GMT)

__ __ __ Pat Conlon -:- Erika - darshan -:- Sat, Mar 17, 2001 at 00:38:06 (GMT)

__ __ __ donner -:- Hi -:- Sat, Mar 17, 2001 at 00:36:18 (GMT)

__ __ guy rollins -:- Hi -:- Fri, Mar 16, 2001 at 23:14:35 (GMT)

__ Richard -:- I nominate Erika for all time **BEST** premie to.. -:- Fri, Mar 16, 2001 at 21:52:53 (GMT)

__ __ Pat Conlon -:- I nominate Erika for all time **BEST** premie to.. -:- Sat, Mar 17, 2001 at 01:42:56 (GMT)

__ __ Erika -:- I nominate Erika for all time **BEST** premie to.. -:- Fri, Mar 16, 2001 at 22:17:57 (GMT)

__ __ __ Jim -:- Hey, that's funny! -:- Fri, Mar 16, 2001 at 23:49:27 (GMT)

__ Francesca -:- Appreciate your honesty ... -:- Fri, Mar 16, 2001 at 19:49:07 (GMT)

__ __ Erika -:- Appreciate your honesty ... -:- Fri, Mar 16, 2001 at 21:54:45 (GMT)

__ Joe -:- Hi Erika -:- Fri, Mar 16, 2001 at 18:43:29 (GMT)

__ __ Erika -:- Hi Erika -:- Fri, Mar 16, 2001 at 22:00:25 (GMT)

__ __ __ Joe -:- Hi Erika -:- Fri, Mar 16, 2001 at 22:23:07 (GMT)

__ __ Joe -:- A few of comments -:- Fri, Mar 16, 2001 at 19:44:49 (GMT)

__ __ __ Erika -:- A few of comments -:- Fri, Mar 16, 2001 at 22:15:47 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ Joe -:- I feel for ya Erika -:- Sat, Mar 17, 2001 at 19:15:43 (GMT)

__ Jim -:- If you're Erika Andersen, did u read Kurt's story? -:- Fri, Mar 16, 2001 at 17:09:44 (GMT)

__ __ Erika -:- If you're Erika Andersen, did u read Kurt's story? -:- Fri, Mar 16, 2001 at 18:06:15 (GMT)

__ __ __ Jim -:- If you're Erika Andersen, did u read Kurt's story? -:- Sat, Mar 17, 2001 at 00:19:23 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ Erika -:- If you're Erika Andersen, did u read Kurt's story? -:- Sat, Mar 17, 2001 at 03:25:03 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ Jim -:- Hate to disappoint you -:- Sat, Mar 17, 2001 at 03:26:35 (GMT)

__ la-ex -:- Hi Erika.You are brave, but be ready to.... -:- Fri, Mar 16, 2001 at 16:56:23 (GMT)

__ __ Erika -:- Hi Erika.You are brave, but be ready to.... -:- Fri, Mar 16, 2001 at 18:17:23 (GMT)

__ Susan -:- Hi -:- Fri, Mar 16, 2001 at 16:18:48 (GMT)

__ __ Erika -:- Hi -:- Fri, Mar 16, 2001 at 18:24:19 (GMT)

__ __ __ Susan -:- forbidden -:- Fri, Mar 16, 2001 at 19:03:04 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ Francesca -:- Susan, my n/t comment below was meant to be ... -:- Fri, Mar 16, 2001 at 23:52:12 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ Francesca -:- I appreciate the heck out of you ;-) n/t -:- Fri, Mar 16, 2001 at 20:01:23 (GMT)

__ __ la-ex -:- Susan, we have Salty Mike and Cerebral MIke nt -:- Fri, Mar 16, 2001 at 17:05:09 (GMT)

__ Rollins -:- Hi -:- Fri, Mar 16, 2001 at 16:04:19 (GMT)

__ __ Erika -:- Hi -:- Fri, Mar 16, 2001 at 18:28:56 (GMT)

__ Connie -:- Hi Erica, a question -:- Fri, Mar 16, 2001 at 15:27:39 (GMT)

__ __ Erika -:- Hi Erica, a question -:- Fri, Mar 16, 2001 at 18:34:38 (GMT)

__ wolfi -:- Hi -:- Fri, Mar 16, 2001 at 13:17:52 (GMT)

__ __ Jim -:- excellent post, wolfi -:- Fri, Mar 16, 2001 at 23:41:56 (GMT)

__ __ Pat Conlon -:- Hi. wolfi - you post was so powerful -:- Fri, Mar 16, 2001 at 18:45:15 (GMT)

__ __ __ Pat Conlon -:- PS wolfi - guards with guns at Amaroo? -:- Fri, Mar 16, 2001 at 18:54:27 (GMT)

__ __ wolfi -:- Hi -:- Fri, Mar 16, 2001 at 13:46:15 (GMT)

__ __ __ Way -:- To Woolfy/wolfi -:- Fri, Mar 16, 2001 at 19:00:45 (GMT)

__ __ __ Erika -:- Hi -:- Fri, Mar 16, 2001 at 18:41:31 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ Jim -:- ERIKA AND WOLFI ARE PREMIE PLANTS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! -:- Fri, Mar 16, 2001 at 23:56:39 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ Pat Conlon -:- Propagation of premie plants -:- Sat, Mar 17, 2001 at 01:48:29 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ scott -:- ERIKA AND WOLFI ARE PREMIE PLANTS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! -:- Sat, Mar 17, 2001 at 00:15:03 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ Jim -:- German, my ass -- it's cult code, 'scott' -:- Sat, Mar 17, 2001 at 00:31:14 (GMT)

__ Michael Dettmers -:- Hi -:- Fri, Mar 16, 2001 at 12:57:09 (GMT)

__ __ Erika -:- Hi -:- Fri, Mar 16, 2001 at 18:43:07 (GMT)

__ AJW -:- Hi -:- Fri, Mar 16, 2001 at 12:06:21 (GMT)

__ __ Erika -:- Hi -:- Fri, Mar 16, 2001 at 18:59:24 (GMT)

__ __ __ Joe -:- This sounds absurd. -:- Fri, Mar 16, 2001 at 20:58:22 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ Erika -:- This sounds absurd. -:- Fri, Mar 16, 2001 at 21:22:35 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ donner -:- This sounds absurd. -:- Sat, Mar 17, 2001 at 00:40:49 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ Joe -:- You missed the point entirely -:- Fri, Mar 16, 2001 at 22:12:12 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ Pat Conlon -:- Blame it all on the mahatmas -:- Sat, Mar 17, 2001 at 01:52:55 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ Pat Conlon -:- Me too, Erika -:- Fri, Mar 16, 2001 at 21:28:54 (GMT)

__ Pat Conlon -:- Hi, Erika -:- Fri, Mar 16, 2001 at 10:44:00 (GMT)

__ __ Erika -:- Hi, Erika -:- Fri, Mar 16, 2001 at 21:33:11 (GMT)

__ __ __ yRrEg -:- I'm about to hurl... -:- Fri, Mar 16, 2001 at 23:39:42 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ Pat Conlon -:- Gerry, hope you don't talk to your wife like that -:- Sat, Mar 17, 2001 at 03:04:50 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ gerry -:- Fuck Patrick this Erica oozes sleaze and deception -:- Sat, Mar 17, 2001 at 15:37:22 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ Pat Conlon -:- Gerry, I don't think Erika -:- Sat, Mar 17, 2001 at 18:28:03 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ gerry -:- Time will tell, I guess -:- Sat, Mar 17, 2001 at 18:50:52 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ Marianne -:- I'm with you and Joe on this one, gErRy -:- Sat, Mar 17, 2001 at 15:55:50 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ gerry -:- too polite to cough... -:- Sat, Mar 17, 2001 at 17:42:44 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ Brian Smith -:- With all due respect -:- Sat, Mar 17, 2001 at 10:38:39 (GMT)

__ __ __ Pat Conlon -:- Hi, Erika -:- Fri, Mar 16, 2001 at 21:37:40 (GMT)

__ Sir Dave -:- Hi -:- Fri, Mar 16, 2001 at 10:40:09 (GMT)

__ E.Windsor -:- hellow Sezyou daaarling, love to kids xxxx -:- Fri, Mar 16, 2001 at 09:06:00 (GMT)

__ __ Erika -:- hellow Sezyou daaarling, love to kids xxxx -:- Fri, Mar 16, 2001 at 21:51:39 (GMT)

__ Jim -:- The charmed premie life -:- Fri, Mar 16, 2001 at 07:54:07 (GMT)

__ __ Erika -:- The charmed premie life -:- Fri, Mar 16, 2001 at 21:40:19 (GMT)

__ __ __ yErRg -:- yOUR hEAD'S sCREWED uP, gIRLY -:- Sat, Mar 17, 2001 at 00:24:32 (GMT)

__ __ __ Connie -:- Erika....... -:- Sat, Mar 17, 2001 at 00:23:51 (GMT)

__ __ Richard -:- Thank you for your story -:- Fri, Mar 16, 2001 at 16:24:15 (GMT)

__ __ __ Erika -:- Thank you for your story -:- Fri, Mar 16, 2001 at 21:43:09 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ Pat Conlon -:- Erika, you're definitely not snotty -:- Fri, Mar 16, 2001 at 22:06:46 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ Joe -:- And what do you call it Pat? -:- Sat, Mar 17, 2001 at 19:43:21 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ Erika -:- Erika, you're definitely not snotty -:- Fri, Mar 16, 2001 at 22:22:26 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ Babs -:- What a woman! -:- Sat, Mar 17, 2001 at 03:17:24 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Erika -:- What a woman! -:- Sat, Mar 17, 2001 at 03:30:35 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ Ulf -:- Erika, you're definitely not snotty -:- Fri, Mar 16, 2001 at 22:53:38 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ donner -:- Erika, -:- Sat, Mar 17, 2001 at 18:35:30 (GMT)

Forum Administrator -:- Where have all the premies gone.... -:- Fri, Mar 16, 2001 at 05:46:14 (GMT)

__ sumo boy -:- Where have all the premies gone.... -:- Fri, Mar 16, 2001 at 10:07:15 (GMT)

__ __ Susan -:- its the Venusians! (nt) -:- Fri, Mar 16, 2001 at 15:55:21 (GMT)

__ Brian Smith -:- I'll bet they don't top those numbers in Portland -:- Fri, Mar 16, 2001 at 09:49:37 (GMT)

__ __ Richard -:- FA and J-M - I'm happy to help also -:- Fri, Mar 16, 2001 at 16:28:53 (GMT)

__ Richard -:- Ides of March = 11,779 Messages Read ! -:- Fri, Mar 16, 2001 at 06:07:09 (GMT)

__ __ Pat Conlon -:- Ides of March = Et tu, EPO? -:- Fri, Mar 16, 2001 at 06:28:34 (GMT)

__ __ __ Tony Walker -:- Ides of March = Et tu BrutusEPO nt -:- Fri, Mar 16, 2001 at 09:02:37 (GMT)

Jitendra Darling -:- So this is where my wife goes when... -:- Fri, Mar 16, 2001 at 04:14:20 (GMT)

__ Way -:- A few questions -:- Fri, Mar 16, 2001 at 19:31:38 (GMT)

__ Katie H. -:- I just answered below! -:- Fri, Mar 16, 2001 at 04:16:57 (GMT)

__ __ Richard -:- Muktananda - Miami Beach -:- Fri, Mar 16, 2001 at 05:53:22 (GMT)

la-ex -:- Mike Donner-can I ask you a few?'s... -:- Fri, Mar 16, 2001 at 03:41:33 (GMT)

__ donner -:- Mike Donner-can I ask you a few?'s... -:- Fri, Mar 16, 2001 at 16:38:44 (GMT)

__ AJW -:- Me too Mike. -:- Fri, Mar 16, 2001 at 12:56:30 (GMT)

__ __ donner -:- answer to anth -:- Sat, Mar 17, 2001 at 01:03:42 (GMT)

__ __ Squint -:- Are We Related? -:- Fri, Mar 16, 2001 at 14:52:49 (GMT)

__ __ __ AJW -:- The one in my right eye -:- Fri, Mar 16, 2001 at 16:37:21 (GMT)

janet -:- did you scan in the back of the smartcard too? -:- Fri, Mar 16, 2001 at 03:40:42 (GMT)

__ Richard -:- Look at J-M's SmartCard n/t -:- Fri, Mar 16, 2001 at 03:49:20 (GMT)

Sir Dave -:- You too can be in a synchronised team -:- Fri, Mar 16, 2001 at 01:14:06 (GMT)

__ Katie Darling -:- You too can be in a synchronised team -:- Fri, Mar 16, 2001 at 04:17:57 (GMT)

__ __ Sir Dave -:- Synchronised care package -:- Fri, Mar 16, 2001 at 11:02:30 (GMT)

__ __ Katie Darling -:- P.S. -:- Fri, Mar 16, 2001 at 04:31:32 (GMT)

janet of venice -:- picture of me, if you knew me [you do now!] -:- Fri, Mar 16, 2001 at 00:46:23 (GMT)

__ Pat Conlon -:- You look just like I thought you would only.... -:- Fri, Mar 16, 2001 at 10:48:28 (GMT)

__ GetSmart -:- Sumo Boy, Sir Dave - pick up your cards -:- Fri, Mar 16, 2001 at 02:39:49 (GMT)

__ __ GetSmart -:- janet - try again -:- Fri, Mar 16, 2001 at 03:47:04 (GMT)

__ __ __ Katie H -:- Send me an e-mail and I'll send you my pic -:- Fri, Mar 16, 2001 at 04:18:08 (GMT)

__ __ janet -:- i'm not Sumo Boy!!! but the card tickles me -:- Fri, Mar 16, 2001 at 03:33:32 (GMT)

__ __ __ Katie Darling -:- I recognize you, Janet -:- Fri, Mar 16, 2001 at 11:31:10 (GMT)

__ bobby -:- thanks for the pix! -:- Fri, Mar 16, 2001 at 02:25:32 (GMT)

__ Bobby -:- picture of me, if you knew me [you do now!] -:- Fri, Mar 16, 2001 at 01:15:54 (GMT)

__ __ Richard -:- Bobby - email me re: then/now pix -:- Sat, Mar 17, 2001 at 02:10:27 (GMT)

__ __ Francesca -:- You missed mine, in thread below -:- Fri, Mar 16, 2001 at 05:33:51 (GMT)

__ __ pixels -:- whats your address?..nt -:- Fri, Mar 16, 2001 at 05:26:03 (GMT)

__ __ Katie Darling -:- picture of me, if you knew me [you do now!] -:- Fri, Mar 16, 2001 at 03:22:15 (GMT)

__ __ janet -:- i give permission for mine...... -:- Fri, Mar 16, 2001 at 02:15:26 (GMT)

__ __ __ janet -:- i have one from 77 but its not scanned in yet. -:- Fri, Mar 16, 2001 at 02:21:32 (GMT)

__ __ Sir Dave -:- Before I change my mind and retire again -:- Fri, Mar 16, 2001 at 01:29:08 (GMT)

__ __ __ bill-- -:- what a great photo Sir David..nt -:- Fri, Mar 16, 2001 at 05:23:16 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ Sir Dave -:- Thanks but now we need one of you, Bill -:- Fri, Mar 16, 2001 at 10:45:04 (GMT)

__ __ Katie -:- pictures -:- Fri, Mar 16, 2001 at 01:25:15 (GMT)

__ __ __ Pat Conlon -:- pictures - more! I want to see all your ugly mugs -:- Fri, Mar 16, 2001 at 05:54:00 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ Mercedes -:- pictures - more! I want to see all your ugly mugs -:- Fri, Mar 16, 2001 at 06:14:11 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ Pat Conlon -:- Hi Mercedes -:- Fri, Mar 16, 2001 at 06:31:27 (GMT)

Date: Fri, Mar 16, 2001 at 08:12:53 (GMT) From: Jim Email: None To: Everyone Subject: Before I go to bed, this is so funny -- and OT Message:

Hate to do anything OT these days, the piano roll is turning so fast these days, but I just saw this and thought it was hilarious. Taleban answers critics of Buddha demolition March 15, 2001 Web posted at: 7:32 p.m. EST (0032 GMT) KANDAHAR, Afghanistan (CNN) -- Afghanistan's Taleban rulers say it is unfair for the rest of the world to criticize the demolition of all statues of Buddha in their country. 'We are not breaking these statues as a move against the Buddhists,' Taleban spokesman Abdul Hai Mutmain said in a statement released to CNN on Thursday. 'We do not have a single Buddhist who worshipped these statues in Afghanistan.' That's the first part I thought was so funny. Yeah, like how does this guy know they don't have 'a single Buddhist'? I'm afraid to ask. 'Therefore, if people are so offended around there world, it is not fair. The presence of statues is like a rock in our country that belongs to Afghanistan, and therefore concerns an internal matter,' the spokesman for the strict fundamentalist Muslim movement said. Outrage has echoed around the world since Taleban officials announced last month they would destroy all Buddha statuary. New York's Metropolitan Museum of Art offered to buy and pay for the removal of the carvings, including the huge Buddhas carved into a mountain in the central province of Bamiyan. But Mutmain said it was shameful for people to worship idols carved from stone. He said Islam was a progressive religion and 'it was for the sake of progress that the idols were destroyed.' Too much, huh? But, no, if you had any doubt that this guy's right and that it WAS for the sake of progress and all that, Islam being the progressive religion that it is and all, read this: Meanwhile, the Taleban ordered the slaughter of 100 cows Thursday as atonement for taking so long to destroy the Buddha statues since coming into power more than four years ago. Is that not like funnier than anything? What kind of a world is this anyhow? The movement's Voice of Shariat radio said its supreme leader Mullah Mohammad Omar had ordered the slaughter of 12 cows in the capital Kabul and at least three each in 29 other Taleban-held provincial capitals. 'For any delay ... made in the demolition of statues in Afghanistan, 100 cows will be sacrificed as a recompense,' the radio's Persian-language program said in a broadcast monitored in Islamabad. Sounds like the very kind of scientific formula you'd expect in a progressive, happenign place like Afghanistan. Afghanistan's history is a rich blend of cultures and religions because the country was a key stop on the legendary Silk Road routes between China and Central Asia. 'People say that this is historical heritage of Afghanistan,' said Mutmain, 'but on the contrary ... it is an act of shame to have these idols.' The Taleban want to remove any reminders of the centuries before Islam when Afghanistan was a center of Buddhist learning and pilgrimage. The group's spiritual leaders say that Islam forbids the making of images such as pictures and paintings of people. Afghanistan still has a relatively large Hindu and Sikh population, although hundreds fled between 1992 and 1996 when warring Islamic factions which threw out the communists destroyed much of Kabul. The Taleban -- which since 1996 has controlled more than 90 percent of Afghanistan -- has allowed Hindus and Sikhs to practice their religions. Taleban Foreign Minister Wakil Ahmad Muttawakil told reporters Wednesday in the Afghan capital Kabul that idols worshiped by the country's small Hindu minority had been spared. It's going to take a whole lot of Hare Krishna's to protect those puppies ...er, cows...elephants...whatever.. little blue, boys...whatEVER. Really, I'd hate to have a retail hindu idol outlet in downtown Kabul these days, no matter WHAT Mr. Muttawakil says.

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Date: Sat, Mar 17, 2001 at 00:20:31 (GMT) From: salam Email: None To: Jim Subject: Well after you get out of bed -- and OT Message:

am surprised that you from all people take this at face value. The Talabans has no interest what so ever in whether or not buddhist status reman or not. the whole thing is really about the fact that they are being cornered by the American and their little ass lickers because of a massive opium and heroin drug operation that the Americans and their little ass lickers started during the soviet occupation. The drug operation financed the war aginst the Russians. And when the Russian left the country and as a typical act of the great US of A, they left the Afghans high and dry to their own needs. The Afghans, having no other means but to fend for themselves, stuck it up the Great US of A and their ass licking allies and pushed the drug trade to its limit. Now the Afghans are saying, if you don't pay attention we will destroy some shit banged rocks in the middle of nowhere. The great Dali lama paid and supported by American institutions picked up the tab and is crying murder. Well shit happens. Fucking America, can't keep it's willy in it's pants. Why don't you read some good news?

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Date: Sat, Mar 17, 2001 at 02:49:34 (GMT) From: Dermot Email: None To: salam Subject: Well after you get out of bed -- and OT Message:

Salam by all accounts......in and out of afghanistan......the taliban rulers ( who happened to win rule by force......winner takes all sortof thing)....treat their own people ( that is real men , women and children ) like absolute shit. I can sort of understand your ant-American & poodle UK et al stance but that doesnt mean the taliban are not a bunch of motherfuckin cruel bastards.

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Date: Sat, Mar 17, 2001 at 16:32:02 (GMT) From: Dermot Email: None To: all Subject: Kabul bomb blast...today Message:

Just missed the minister of education.....killed a woman and child ....many injured. More trouble for a troubled nation.

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Date: Sat, Mar 17, 2001 at 00:37:28 (GMT) From: Jim Email: None To: salam Subject: As a feminist, I cannot condone the Taleban Message:

I don't see how anything of what you say even approaches the real issue here which is, just how freaky are these Taleban guys? Go on, tell me it's not that bad. This should be fun.

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Date: Sat, Mar 17, 2001 at 03:10:45 (GMT) From: Thelma Email: None To: Jim Subject: As a self-made woman with new silicone tits Message:

I have to agree with you Jim.

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Date: Sat, Mar 17, 2001 at 10:26:46 (GMT) From: salam Email: None To: Thelma Subject: I suggest you lot go and read a bit of history Message:

How did the Talabans come to power and why aren't they succeeding in consolidating their power on the hole country especially the north. Am not in favor of the Talabans or their opposition and I would like to see some films showing that they have done some damage, about from that large statue that is carved in the rock. the way I see it is very simple. The Talabans will continue to trade in opium, drugs and support terrorisim. They will also continue to push these drugs in Iran because Iran supports the north. As far as the west is concerened, Iran is doing their job for them, fighting drug trafficing. The Talabans want the north, want weapons and support, the west is a bit at a loss as to who they should backup as each faction is related to one camp. Also if you take Pakistan into the equation as a Talaban supporter and the owner of a nuclear weapon with a large market of 120 million people, you will certainly get your nickers in a knot. So, as you asked for it, please tell me how to solve it. Or is this another one of these solutions that you have propsed for the Mid-east?

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Date: Fri, Mar 16, 2001 at 16:26:56 (GMT) From: Jethro Email: None To: Jim Subject: It is funny and also perfidious since Message:

the Quaran actually has some very noble parts in it. For instance it is written that 'there is no compulsion in religion'. i,e, a Muslim must not try to force anyone's change it belief. In fact, if you care to read the Quaran, there is not one Muslim country in the world. Not one of them lives by the Quaran(the good parts anyway). In a real Muslim state, anyone should be able to practice their own religion(or not) without fear. Oh Anth: you said that only Chritianity/Islam and Judaism are recognised in Afganistan. So how come, according to the article, the representative said they are allowing their Hindus to keep their idols? I didn't think there were anh Hindis there.

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Date: Fri, Mar 16, 2001 at 13:33:31 (GMT) From: Sandy Email: None To: Jim Subject: What kind of a world is this anyhow? you ask... Message:

Kind of naive of you, isn't it? If these guys slaughter people wholesale, then stone statues are nothing compared to that. And I don't think 'funny' is the proper description...hope you slept well.

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Date: Fri, Mar 16, 2001 at 12:43:52 (GMT) From: AJW Email: None To: Jim Subject: Fuck the Buddhas Face. Message:

Jim, Surely you must have noticed how the Western media just loves to run stories on non-white people destroying the cultural heritage of the planet. The truth of the matter is that most of the cultural devastation of since the birth of Christ, has been done by white folk like you and me. And we're still doing it. Anybody hear about the three and half thousand year old prehistoric city, on the Gulf of Mexico, full of massive statues with African faces that was destroyed by the oil companies a few years ago? Did you know the British in India used to take hammers and chisels on their pic-nics to the Taj Mahal, and chisel out nice bits of marble carving to take home? Did you see how we totally trashed the Parthenon removing the Elgin Marbles. Discovery channel has a documentary every night showing learned white archeologists robbing ancient graves. Why isn't anbody moaning about he ancient monuments in Baghdad we're blowing up- not to mention the poor folk who live there. And you and I are paying for that Jim. Fuck the Buddhas face. What about all the Uranium we've littered around Bosnia that is causing massive clusters of childhood cancer and leukemia in these places. Anth the Mujahadeen.

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Date: Fri, Mar 16, 2001 at 14:02:39 (GMT) From: sumo boy Email: None To: AJW Subject: Fuck the Buddhas Face. Message:

righty right, anth, Allah-Hu-Akhbar, grill the infidels!!!

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Date: Fri, Mar 16, 2001 at 13:59:15 (GMT) From: Sandy Email: None To: AJW Subject: Not to mention... Message:

the millions of men, women and especially children living in unspeakable conditions either from personal family abuse or political/social/economic/cultural pressure, the many broken Russian nuclear submarines they dumped under the polar ice cap and are leaking radioactivity in your immediate direction, the white collar criminals who run the world with stylish suits, iron bloody fists and smiles on their faces with all the right words and documents, the last idiot who cut you off on the highway, and all the countless other inhuman indignities and indecencies that are being perpetrated on human beings even as we speak....and then there is the other side of the coin, all the beauty, the random and conscious acts of kindness and heroism, the original beauty and potential of this very planet...so trashing a statue or a culture is bad, but trashing live people and the planet we live on and destroying our own environment is how much worse and more evidence of just how stupid and evil the ruling forces are on the planet. A person with sage wisdom said that just about now, the world would be left to demonic forces for a time, before the big housecleaning and the establishment of peace on earth. We are in it, and we could point out the injustices until we died and not be finished. A worldwide clusterfuck orchestrated by people whose guidance is from hell and they either don't see it or they are demons in people's bodies and they do see it. Either way, I believe the good guys win in the end. Sandy the recently more introspective

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Date: Fri, Mar 16, 2001 at 15:22:27 (GMT) From: Jim Email: None To: Sandy Subject: ***EXTRA! EXTRA! SANDY QUOTES WISE MAN*** Message:

<>A person with sage wisdom said that just about now, the world would be left to demonic forces for a time, before the big housecleaning and the establishment of peace on earth. We are in it, and we could point out the injustices until we died and not be finished. A worldwide clusterfuck orchestrated by people whose guidance is from hell and they either don't see it or they are demons in people's bodies and they do see it. Either way, I believe the good guys win in the end. Sorry, Sandy, I didn't comment earlier. This is serious shit. What do you suggest?

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Date: Fri, Mar 16, 2001 at 15:56:27 (GMT) From: Sandy Email: None To: Jim Subject: ***EXTRA! EXTRA! SANDY QUOTES WISE MAN*** Message:

Sorry, Sandy, I didn't comment earlier. This is serious shit. What do you suggest? -Jim Dear Jim, What I suggest from my own ego-based little self is that you go fuck yourself for your sarcasm, abuse of your God-given verbal skills to harass and belittle those with whom you have issue, and kiss my ass. What I suggest from my higher self is that you treat others the way you wish to be treated and let go of the pain that makes you the way you are. Only someone in great pain can put out such bile as you do. Get well is what I suggest. I lean toward the higher self more and more lately. The other one is too much like the way you are, and I don't care for that coming my way, so I don't want to do it anymore. You can disagree or debate or dialog with someone without being an asshole. I suggest you learn how to do that, it would give you the missing class that you need to be both intelligent and human at the same time. Sandy

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Date: Fri, Mar 16, 2001 at 16:27:06 (GMT) From: AJW Email: None To: Sandy Subject: Nice to see Jim and Sandy getting on at last. (nt) Message:

toodle oodle oo.

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Date: Fri, Mar 16, 2001 at 14:20:19 (GMT) From: Jim Email: None To: Sandy Subject: What is this? A self-righteous circle jerk? Message:

Sorry guys, but surely you can give up the sanctimoniousness for a minute and enjoy this bizarre story on another level? I'm sorry, you can't get much funnier than the 'progressive' muslims slaughtering goats or whatever to atone for being a bit tardy getting rid of the statues. THAT, my friends, is hilarious. And then that bit about how there's nothing to worry about, we assure you that we don't even HAVE any buddhists! And then that bit where, just after he's condemned the worship of idols, oh yes he has, the Taliban guy assures the local hindus that THEIR idol worship is perfectly safe (for now, I guess)....... But no, you need to overlook all that to what? Teach me a lesson? Thanks but no thanks.

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Date: Fri, Mar 16, 2001 at 16:08:37 (GMT) From: Sandy Email: None To: Jim Subject: No, it's a self-righteous attempt by you to be Message:

right all the time about everything, including how we should all feel about everything, even things off-topic like this. You are deserving of pity, not anger. I should not have even posted to you in your thread or anywhere. That, not what I said, was my mistake. I should have known better.

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Date: Sat, Mar 17, 2001 at 03:17:29 (GMT) From: Pat Conlon Email: None To: Sandy Subject: Sandy, I hate to spoil Jim's fun but he is Message:

not attacking you here and most of his jokes are not appreciated because he refuses to stoop to using emotikons. Also haven't you noticed the kinder, gentler Jim with the reasonable voice? Kiss and make up.

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Date: Sat, Mar 17, 2001 at 14:52:40 (GMT) From: Sandy Email: None To: Pat Conlon Subject: Sandy, I hate to spoil Jim's fun but he is Message:

not attacking you here and most of his jokes are not appreciated because he refuses to stoop to using emotions. Also haven't you noticed the kinder, gentler Jim with the reasonable voice? Kiss and make up. -Pat * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * Pat, Like the person who works with horse manure and after a time does not smell it anymore, so I believe that you have lost your sense of what is and is not an attack, being around Jim as much as you are and being a declared ex-premie. I, on the other hand, come here less often and am a target. I just re-read the upper posts and still feel that he was wanting everyone to laugh when he laughs and cry when he cries, and then pouting when somebody did not do so. And he can NEVER learn anything from me, because I am not a card-carrying ex-premie. How obtuse. As for 'stooping to use emotions', I rather believe that a degree of spontaneous emotion helps to facilitate communication between thinking, feeling human beings, and to to so ennobles one and raises one up, not the opposite. He may be changing his package, but I think the contents have not changed one bit. But you know, Pat, it's all good. I'm cool with however everyone else wants to be because that's not in my power to change. I can only change myself and through doing that and that only can I really change anything else in the world. So have a good Saturday. Happy Saint Patrick's Day too. Sandy

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Date: Sat, Mar 17, 2001 at 18:41:07 (GMT) From: Pat Conlon Email: None To: Sandy Subject: Sandy, ''stooping to use emotions'' Message:

should have been, ''stooping to use emotikons.'' I know the two of you have a difficult history but I also have had some rough times with Jim. And really I guess it is none of my business anyway. I'm just a sentimental old Irish fool who wants everyone to get on with each other.

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Date: Sat, Mar 17, 2001 at 21:32:28 (GMT) From: Sandy Email: None To: Pat Conlon Subject: Amiable personalities Message:

I'm just a sentimental old Irish fool who wants everyone to get on with each other. -Pat Pat, I'm the same, just not Irish. Seems to be a tough room to expect everyone to get on with each other due to issue disagreements and stages of where each it at with it all. A Leroux Blackberry Brandy toast to St. Patrick and to your health. Sandy McPass

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Date: Sat, Mar 17, 2001 at 16:46:19 (GMT) From: Jim Email: None To: Sandy Subject: Of all the things I've ever been accused of ...... Message:

I just re-read the upper posts and still feel that he was wanting everyone to laugh when he laughs and cry when he cries, and then pouting when somebody did not do so. This takes the cake. You're hilarious, Sandy. Very, very funny.

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Date: Sat, Mar 17, 2001 at 17:39:04 (GMT) From: Sandy Email: None To: Pat Subject: Pat, notice how accurate information shuts him up. Message:

I just re-read the upper posts and still feel that he was wanting everyone to laugh when he laughs and cry when he cries, and then pouting when somebody did not do so. -Sandy This takes the cake. You're hilarious, Sandy. Very, very funny. -Jim

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Date: Sat, Mar 17, 2001 at 18:46:53 (GMT) From: Pat Conlon Email: None To: Sandy Subject: Pat, the sentimental old Irish fool wishes Message:

to hereby make it known that I think the two of you are talking PAST each other. Jim is aware of that and is having a chuckle but Sandy isn't. I am offering my mediation services free of charge till the stroke of midnight. Then I go back to being a tough Afrikaner.

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Date: Sat, Mar 17, 2001 at 20:51:04 (GMT) From: Jim Email: None To: Pat Conlon Subject: Hey, Pat, sounds great -- mediate! Message:

I guess I should talk about my feelings, huh? Ok, I feel that Sandy is a self-righteous wind bag. How's that? Can I have a hanky please? (Don't worry. We came in separate cars).

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Date: Sat, Mar 17, 2001 at 21:36:16 (GMT) From: Pat Conlon Email: None To: Jim Subject: Jim, you're such a softie Message:

If you go on like this much longer being so kind and gentle I may have to become the bad cop. What's the difference between picking your friends and picking your nose?

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Date: Fri, Mar 16, 2001 at 15:21:26 (GMT) From: AJW Email: None To: Jim Subject: No Buddhists No Cry. Message:

Jim, Blimey, I thought we were going to start the revolution here for a minute, then you came in with your establishment sanity and spoiled it all. There's a simple explanation why there are no Buddhists in Afghanistan. There is no Buddhism. It is not recognised as a religion. How can there be any Buddhists there? The only recognised religions are Islam, Christianity and Judaism. They probably see Buddhists like we see people who worship Thor and Odin, if they've even heard of them. And, whether we understand it or not, and whether we like it or not, it is forbidden in Islam to reproduce the human form, so these giant statues are actually an offence to their religion, whatever the faith of the people who put them there. If nobody in the country likes them, and everyone finds them offensive, why shouldn't they blow them up? The Irish blew up the statue of Nelson in the middle of Dublin becaue they found that offensive. Nobody complained then. Jim, do you give up being sanctimonious for a minute if someone tells you a racist joke? Anth the meant a arue tiff.

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Date: Fri, Mar 16, 2001 at 18:27:15 (GMT) From: Dermot Email: None To: AJW Subject: small point Anth... Message:

Listening to the BBC reporter thrown out of Afghanistan today ( apparently the Beeb was the only foreign journalist office still in there) She siad .....the vast majority of ordinary people seemed to disagree with the decison to destroy the statues .....apparently ( buddist or not ...religious icon or not) .....for centuries the afghans looked on them with pride as being some sort of landmark...blah blah ...associated with their country ....and they had survived all the recent wars and turmoil ....only for a bunch of VERY unpopular but very ruthless and powerful rulers to decree they had to be blown to smithereens.... The taliban rulers were extremely angry with her for reporting that the LOCAL populous didnt agree with their decision ( they didnt give a shit about her earlier internationl condemnation reports ) .....she also said the BBC was the most popular and listened to staion in Afghanistan with 70% plus of population tuning in ..... She could of course be a lying western reactionary stooge..... but then she said she loved the people......was always treated extremely warmly by ordinary folks .....and wants to get back in as soon as she can .... Just thought I'd mention this 'cos you ' why if all the local people want it done etc ' or something along those lines. Dermot otherwise big admire of Anth the many names & faces

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Date: Fri, Mar 16, 2001 at 16:20:48 (GMT) From: Bin Liner Email: None To: AJW Subject: The 'Irish' didn't blow up Nelson's Message:

Pillar . It was blown up by 4 or 5 pissed misfits who wanted to kick start their dying military cult . I was very annoyed about it because the top was the only place from which you could get a panoramic view of the city. The Gov. was annoyed too , they banged up the perps.

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Date: Fri, Mar 16, 2001 at 16:23:42 (GMT) From: AJW Email: None To: Bin Liner Subject: Well they weren't English (nt) Message:

and probably not Welsh.

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Date: Fri, Mar 16, 2001 at 15:29:33 (GMT) From: Jim Email: None To: AJW Subject: No Buddhists No Cry. Message:

Anth, Yes, yes, yes, to all that. But forget about the history lesson. Didn't you find it funny? I don't know, Laurie and I coudln't stop laughing about it last night. The only reason I mentioned that it wasn't from the Onion was that she made me show her just where I found it on CNN. 'til then, she was sure it was a parody. Look, if you want to talk about it all on a SERIOUS level, yeah, you're right, everyone's fucked. It's all the same and it's all different. The Irish blew up Nelson because he represented their oppressors. Likewise Buddha in the Afhgani mountains? Not so sure about that. But anyway, sure, if you like it. Why not? Right now, having just re-read Sandy's post, I'm just dying to find out what we're supposed to do next. Like, where're all the wise men when we need one?

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Date: Fri, Mar 16, 2001 at 16:15:36 (GMT) From: AJW Email: None To: Jim Subject: There's grit in the dahl Jim. Message:

Hi Jim, I did laugh when I read your post through first, but then I got a slightly uncomfortable feeling about what is going on with all this stuff right now. The same feeling I do when I seen an old Tarzan movie on TV, (Why are they showing racist Nazi propaganda movies in a multicultural society in the 21st Century?) That's why I asked you about laughing at a racist joke. I just get sick of the way people from other cultures, or people of a different colour, are eagerly portrayed as 'stupid' in the media, both fiction and non-fiction, and in jokes. Arabs and Muslims are now the boogy folk on the planet, since the Soviet Empire quit. We've been bombing civilians in Iraq everyday for months, and are still bombing them. This is totally against all international law, and not supported by any UN mandate. There is usually nothing in the news about it. The Afghani Moslem Government wants to demolish some old, offensive statues. There's a fucking uproar all over the world. Well Fuck that. I don't swallow it. That's why I spat it out Jim. Anth the cracked tooth.

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Date: Fri, Mar 16, 2001 at 16:25:28 (GMT) From: Jim Email: None To: AJW Subject: Hey, don't blame the messenger Message:

I just get sick of the way people from other cultures, or people of a different colour, are eagerly portrayed as 'stupid' in the media, both fiction and non-fiction, and in jokes. CNN didn't do anything but report, without a single pejorative term or phrase, the facts and the official commentary by the Taliban. The humour's inherent in the black comedy of the situation. The only person making any 'joke' about it or even implying that these guys are 'stupid' is me. I'm the one who took this very straight-forward report and found a little humour in it. Mind you, you just know that this kind of problem could never happen in Kabul because no one can say dick about anything there. But that's a different story. Arabs and Muslims are now the boogy folk on the planet, since the Soviet Empire quit. We've been bombing civilians in Iraq everyday for months, and are still bombing them. This is totally against all international law, and not supported by any UN mandate. There is usually nothing in the news about it. What are you talking about? Bombing civilians everyday in Iraq? Give me a break. BTW, did you see the recent reports that Saddam is indeed making some pretty hefty homebrew? Aw, don't worry about it!

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Date: Fri, Mar 16, 2001 at 16:35:45 (GMT) From: AJW Email: None To: Jim Subject: Saddham Hussein slept on our sofa. Message:

Hi again Jim, Didn't you know that British and American planes have been running bombing sorties every day over Iraq for months now. This is happening Jim. The fact that CNN ran a report on the destruction of the statues at all is the point. It doesn't have to take the piss. What's the story, 'Stupid Moslems destroy beautiful works of art. Everyone offended.' And Jim, I've personally met Saddam Hussein several times. He kipped on our settee in London a few of years ago. We went to see Forest play QPR at Lofthouse Rd. He's a really nice guy, completely misunderstood by the West. He's kind, gentle, a warm sense of humour. Does his own ironing. Don't believe what you read in the papers about him. It's a CIA plot. Saddam is really working for World Peace, starting by reuniting Arabia, split up by the British in the 20s to enable us to steal their oil. He is a good, kind man. Salamalicum Brother, Glory to Allah. Your brother and comrade in righteousness Anthakba the Loonicum

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Date: Sat, Mar 17, 2001 at 00:07:00 (GMT) From: salam Email: None To: AJW Subject: Am watching Message:

But no comments. (so don't get too comfy)

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Date: Fri, Mar 16, 2001 at 16:44:22 (GMT) From: Jim Email: None To: AJW Subject: Fine but he owes me money, not much but still.... Message:

Didn't you know that British and American planes have been running bombing sorties every day over Iraq for months now. This is happening Jim. No I didn't know that. What are you talking about? I know of the U.S. and British raids on the anti-aircraft surveillance intallations last month. But that's it. Elaborate, please. You've already said they're bombing civilians. Again, what are you talking about? Prove it please. The fact that CNN ran a report on the destruction of the statues at all is the point. It doesn't have to take the piss. What's the story, 'Stupid Moslems destroy beautiful works of art. Everyone offended.' Yes, I agree. There should have been a news blackout. Better luck next time.

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Date: Fri, Mar 16, 2001 at 17:07:59 (GMT) From: AJW Email: None To: Jim Subject: Fine but he owes me money, not much but still.... Message:

Hi Jim, The raids that were reported last month were on Baghdad, but we've been running bombing raids over Iraq every day for months, along with the Americans. It's the best way to train your crews and test your weapons and tactics. It's called patrolling the 'no fly zone', and any resistance, ie, anti-aircraft fire, 'military targets' on the ground, etc are legitimate targets. It's partly about the Americans showing all the other bolshy leaders around the world, that they'd better not step out of line. It's partly about oil. It stinks. Britain act like the snotty kid following the playground bully around, and kicking the other kids after the Burger King has knocked them down. Did you know that the population of Iraq is around 14 million? Not many more than in Scotland. A real scary evil empire. Anth off to watch TV

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Date: Fri, Mar 16, 2001 at 17:15:05 (GMT) From: Jim Email: None To: AJW Subject: More, Anth, give me more Message:

Do you know specifically of any other bombings, not patrols, we know about them, but bombings, beside the ones we all heard about, the ones that Bush and Blair announced, etc? If so, please give me a little detail because I want to know about this. You also said that we're bombing civilians daily. Let's not forget that sweet fact which, I'll assume, given your usual accuracy in these matters, was not mere rhetorical flourish. By the way, do you think it was right to confront Hitler? When? Why?

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Date: Fri, Mar 16, 2001 at 10:15:57 (GMT) From: Pat Conlon Email: None To: Jim Subject: Thank Christ I'm not a Muslim- by Jihad! NT Message:

j

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Date: Fri, Mar 16, 2001 at 12:48:53 (GMT) From: AJW Email: None To: Pat Conlon Subject: Think again Pat. Message:

In what other organisation on the planet do you get such a wonderful volatile mix of politics and religion? I'd rather be a Muslim that a Christian anyday. All Glory to Allah. And I'd take the American Satan out to dinner and give him a good talking to as well. Anth, who's life was saved by the kind people of Pakistan. PS. They had an incredible flourishing urban culture in Pakistan, while Europe was still in the Stone Age.

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Date: Fri, Mar 16, 2001 at 19:04:25 (GMT) From: Pat Conlon Email: None To: AJW Subject: Holy Jihad, Anth - that was a joke Message:

sort of. I've known and respected many Muslims in South Africa. But Christ save me from any fundamentalists.

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Date: Fri, Mar 16, 2001 at 14:34:05 (GMT) From: Jim Email: None To: AJW Subject: Yes, me too. I also suffer from Taliban-envy Message:

Yes, Anth, it would be a wonderful, wonderful life we'd be living in Afghanistan if only we could, eh? You know, there was Paris in the '30s, New York in the '40s, London in the '60s and ah, yes, Afghanistan in the '90s. Talk about being there, right at the heart of things. Such vibrancy! Such freedom! Why there must have been days in Kabul when it seemed like the whole world was passing by your front porch (not that you could see who any of the women were because, a) they'd be in sserious shit if they even came close to your proch without an escort and a damn good reason for being out in public and b) you couldn't see through their veils in any event). Yes, it sure must have been cool to have been part of the Taliban back then, back in that glorious, mythical time that was Kabul! Why, there'd be moments when you'd drop to the ground and see nothing but a sea of backs just like yours, dropping at the exact same moment, silent save but for the plaintive minaret and you and your fellow thousands of brothers and brothers mixing it up in prayer together. No one fucking around doing their own, miserable little 'thing'. No, fuck that shit. We're talking real synchronicity. Yeah, that was the day alright. I'm with you all the way, Anth. Just don't know if these other loosers can overlook their own satanic tendencies to see the truth. Shit, too bad we couldn't ALL be in Kabul 'cause then we could make them! All is not just great, Allah's fucking fantastic!

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Date: Fri, Mar 16, 2001 at 16:03:13 (GMT) From: AJW Email: None To: Jim Subject: It's all about 'Respect' Jim. Message:

I spent some time in Afghanistan before the war. I lived in Kabul for a month and travelled across the country. Afghanistan is one of the poorest countries on the planet. It was invaded by the British, wooed by the Americans, then invaded by the Russians. I've seen recent film of Kabul. It looks like Berlin did in 1945. Sure their country's completely fucked right now. But whose fault is that? When I was there, I didn't see rows of bending backs anywhere. I saw lots of poor, devout, friendly, hospitable, honest, brave people, who want to run their own country without interference from anybody. We should allow them to organise their country how they want. Particulary when we do much worse things ourselves. The missile launchers the Afghanis are popping the old Buddha with were made in the West. Maybe we should make it a condition of sale that they are not used to blow up statues and works of art. Only human beings. And Kabul was an extremely cool place to be in 1971 Jim. It was one of the coolest places I've ever been. And the Afghanis are very cool people. Ask anyone who's been there. So stop making fun of them and their religion or we'll get Fat whatsit to screw you up. Oooops. Forgot. You've already had one of them in your life. Adious Amigo, Glory to Allah, Anthatical muscleman.

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Date: Fri, Mar 16, 2001 at 16:15:37 (GMT) From: Jim Email: None To: AJW Subject: Come on! Message:

When I was there, I didn't see rows of bending backs anywhere. I saw lots of poor, devout, friendly, hospitable, honest, brave people, who want to run their own country without interference from anybody. We should allow them to organise their country how they want. Particulary when we do much worse things ourselves. Anth, I've heard that Berlin was cool in the twenties, but that didn't justify Nazi Germany thirty years later. Likewise, the Taliban are simply, for want of a better word, evil. Look what they do to their women! Sure it's in the name of religion but so what? The Nazis had their ideals too. No, to me it just can't be the case that Afghanistan is better off somehow under these tyrants than it was under the Russians. That was ugly but this is worse.

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Date: Fri, Mar 16, 2001 at 16:21:39 (GMT) From: AJW Email: None To: Jim Subject: Come on! Message:

So, what you're saying here Jim is, the Afghan Government is not fit to run the country and it should be replaced by one that is. Yeah, tell me a country where that doesn't apply. The British Government is ordering the daily slaughter of civilians in Iraq. I don't think they're fit to run a country either. Let's get them replaced too. Dropping bombs on people is much worse than dropping bombs on statues. Blowing up homes, families and friends doesn't really advance women's rights much either does it Jim? Anth the muscle man.

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Date: Fri, Mar 16, 2001 at 16:29:07 (GMT) From: Jim Email: None To: AJW Subject: This is one messy way to argue Message:

Sorry, for a moment there I thought we were talking about Afghanistan and the Taliban more particularly. So what? You want to equate the Taliban to the British Government? You know, Laurie's daughter was thinking of doing her MBA in Kabul but I don't know. It was either Kabul or London School of Economics. Which would you suggest?

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Date: Fri, Mar 16, 2001 at 16:59:49 (GMT) From: AJW Email: None To: Jim Subject: This is one messy way to argue Message:

I was talking about the right of Governments to run countries. Laurie might get better law classes at the LSE, but she'll get better hash in Kabul. Danth the oned

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Date: Fri, Mar 16, 2001 at 17:33:30 (GMT) From: Sandy Email: None To: AJW Subject: Doesn't have to be messy Message:

Anth, Hang in there, fella. I was just reading down this riff and I saw how Jim involved the Nazis but scoffs at your inclusion of the British government. It's like whatever the conversation is about, whether it's about Maharaji or OT, it becomes Jim trying to make everybody see it his way or face the consequences of a verbal hassle with him doing all his famous dance steps, time after time after time after time. Even in that OT thread about the Taliban up top, it's like he thought it was funny and I didn't. He couldn't leave it at that, he has to go and try to PROVE why it's funny and whoever doesn't think it's funny can fuck off, etc etc etc. Funny is a matter of opinion. Jim does not allow for others to have their own opinion. With him, there has to be a right and a wrong, no shades of gray, no personal observations allowed. He lives in the world of duality and that's what goes on there 24/7. For me, that's a very stressful place and not where I'd like to live. Ask yourself, how would you like to have Jim Heller as a housemate, being told how it really is all the time by he who knows? And I don't mean Maharaji, I mean Jim Heller. Sandy the Friend of Anth

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Date: Fri, Mar 16, 2001 at 09:02:37 (GMT) From: Brian Smith Email: None To: Jim Subject: very moooooving post Jim, only in the name of God Message:

could this sort of logic be rationalized, it really is so bizzare that it's funny. I wonder how many cows I will have to kill to redeem myself for taking so long to realize that I had been following a false guru fraud according to this formula? I am laughing my ass off right now, Where do you dig up this stuff?

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Date: Fri, Mar 16, 2001 at 14:36:42 (GMT) From: Jim Email: None To: Brian Smith Subject: It was on CNN's main page last night Message:

Brian, After reading Anth and Sandy's consciousness-raising posts I don't think there's anything the least bit funny about any of this. Get thee away, American Satan!

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Date: Fri, Mar 16, 2001 at 17:06:59 (GMT) From: Brian Smith Email: None To: Jim Subject: Now that's even funnier, I am laughing harder Message:

ha,ha,ha,ha,ha,ha

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Date: Fri, Mar 16, 2001 at 08:24:56 (GMT) From: Jim Email: None To: Jim Subject: BTW, this is legit -- nor the Onion, CNN (nt) Message:

ggg

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Date: Fri, Mar 16, 2001 at 07:32:34 (GMT) From: Erika Email: None To: Everyone Subject: Hi Message:

All, Just to put my cards on the table up front: I practice Knowledge and really enjoy it, and I consider M my teacher and find his talks inspiring and focusing. So, anybody who needs to flame me or discount me, or not listen to anything else I have to say because I’m a 'cultist;' please – be my guest. Also, this post is very long – just a warning to those who don’t feel like hanging in for a couple of pages. OK. Now, for those of you who are still with me and want to listen. I’ve been reading this board on and off for a long time. For years, it mostly felt crappy and hateful and self-aggrandizing to me. Recently, though, a number of more balanced and reasonable voices have prevailed (and I’m not just talking about the PAMs -- hey, Mikes and Guy). Now I'm listening; I’ve always thought that the 'unexamined life is not worth living,' and have pretty much continually questioned my own and others’ belief systems about M and K in order to remain true to myself. I’ve done this throughout my years with Knowledge, and have never 'gotten in trouble' for it. I’ve read a lot of things over the past few weeks that disturb me deeply – mainly about M’s problem drinking and sexual irresponsibility, and the fact that he seems to have let the Jagdeo issue just slide away. I want to find out as much as I can about these things, and intend to grill current PAMs I know very forcefully. I know, though, if the whole x-rated thing is true and is still in force, that I might not find out much, even if they’re friends of mine. If this stuff is true, it’s clearly going to change my relationship with M in ways I’m not even aware of at the moment. So, I’ll just keep reading and thinking. The thing I want to take issue with though, is the idea that following M has always been about fear and abuse – for everyone. Please understand, those of you who say you followed him out of fear, or felt abused by him and others – I’m certain that’s true for you. I just resist the blanket generalization that it was/is true for everyone. I haven’t ever felt afraid of M, and I’ve never felt abused by him. I never understood him to be saying that I was a piece of shit, as many of you seem to have interpreted. In fact, I always have understood him to be saying that being a human being is an unparalleled gift, and that my true nature is love and contentment, which is mine to experience. In 1982, when I was living in the ashram, I met and fell in love with another premie. We decided to leave the ashram, and I felt that wanted to let M know what was happening. So I wrote him a letter explaining the situation, and inviting him to offer any guidance or direction he might have. About a month later, I got a call from Michael Dettmers (hi Michael, love you) saying that M had gotten my letter, and was inviting me to come to Miami and teach music to his kids. That sounded wonderful to me, and like a cool thing to do, and I said, 'great -- did he say anything about me staying in the ashram?' and Mike said 'Well, of course. Yes, certainly he wants you to stay in the ashram.' It felt a bit glib to me, like maybe it was Mike’s assumption (sorry Mike) and not M’s take on it. So I decided to ask him myself, if I had the chance. A week or so later, in Miami, I was in a room alone with M, and he said, 'So, Erika, how are you?' And I said, 'Well, it was really hard to come here, Maharaji.' And he smiled and made a joke about the flight connections from LA being bad. I didn’t feel it was said to put me off or belittle me, but rather to put me at my ease. I laughed, and then said, 'it was hard to come because I really love this guy, and I felt conflicted. I’ve loved being in the ashram, and I love him, and I love being here, and I’m not sure what to do.' He replied, 'Look, you’re here. Just take this as a kind of vacation. Practice Knowledge, teach the girls, relax. Get clear. See what you want to do.' I said OK, and we talked about some other stuff. This is pretty much word for word – it had a big impact on me, and I remember it very well. A few weeks after that, I felt clear. I truly loved this man, and wanted to marry him, and it didn’t seem to be hindering my internal experience of Knowledge. I wrote M a letter to that effect. The next time he saw me, he smiled and said, 'Well, you look a lot better!' That was it. My husband and I married a few months later, got pregnant a few months after that. I never felt judged, ostracized, punished, abused. I wasn’t encouraged to give up my own 'vote,' as Appleman says. This kindness, clarity and support have characterized all my interactions with M over the years – and, as in the situation above, I feel I’ve always been very honest with him and never felt any negative repercussions. Anyway, the only reason I’m sharing this is to – perhaps – open a few minds to the idea that it is possible to have a reasonably healthy relationship with K and M. I think I have one…and it’s under investigation and subject to evolution all the time to keep it that way. When M used to say 'never leave room for doubt in your mind,' I never heard it as 'don’t doubt' or 'suppress your doubts:' I took it to mean – 'find out what’s true for you.' Thanks for listening, Warmly, Erika P.S. Donner, the reason people call you 'Mike' or 'Donner,' is because you’re such a salt-of- the-earth kind of guy, not a cerebral, well-dressed, Dettmerish sort (grin). Please give our love to Gary and Neese.

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Date: Sat, Mar 17, 2001 at 04:37:31 (GMT) From: Joe Email: None To: Erika Subject: This sounds like rank revisionism to me Message:

And I have some context to say that, because I actually knew you when the 5 commandments were just that. I just can't let you get away with saying this: . When M used to say 'never leave room for doubt in your mind,' I never heard it as 'don’t doubt' or 'suppress your doubts:' I took it to mean – 'find out what’s true for you.' Look, Erika. All the time I was a premie, I never heard anyone state this opinion, although since I have been on this Forum, I have heard one other premie give a similar explanation. Plus, it's completely out of context with the way we lived, about agya, about the rules, about what being a premie was all about. If that's what you really believed, if you were an ashram premie and you thought, 'gee, I wonder if I should have sex?' Under the logic of your interpretation, you should just go right out and see 'if that's true for you.' And you know how out of the question that would have been. No, that's crap. The commandment couldn't have been more clear, and you have to do revisionist back flips to get to the way you interpret it. It clearly was 'dont' doubt.' It was the definition of a cult. It was the written manifestation of a closed system, in which you couldn't examine what was happening to you, because to do so was to doubt, and we had a commandment from the living incarnation of God not to do that. It was nuts, but it was how we lived. And to tell you the truth, Erika, I don't recall you saying anything different when I knew you, and if you did, it would have been heresy. In fact, I seem to recall you really poo-pooing doubts I had about doing propagation in San Antonio, as 'having my own ideas' which I wasn't supposed to have. That was one of the things we kind of fought about, if I remember correctly.

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Date: Sat, Mar 17, 2001 at 17:18:47 (GMT) From: Francesca Email: None To: Joe Subject: You, you are spot on with that one Message:

All due respects to Erika, this kind of brain twisting and revisionism is what allows people to harmonize, synchronize and live with innocuous and also horrible tenets of religions and cults. Like the oyster -- pearl thing. These things can actually shine like opaque, mysterious jewels conceptally -- if you put that kind of gloss on it (I'll stop now [grin]). I would encourage Erika to really look at things like this and see if turning her head around like that is really good for her, or anyone. She doesn't necessarily have to leave the cult in order to call something as it is. She said: When M used to say 'never leave room for doubt in your mind,' I never heard it as 'don’t doubt' or 'suppress your doubts:' I took it to mean – 'find out what’s true for you.' I went and reread some of the posts last night the tortured construction of that 'leave no room for doubt' commandment (yes, commandment) hit me right between the eyes, and then I saw your post. Thanks Joe!

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Date: Sat, Mar 17, 2001 at 02:38:03 (GMT) From: TED Farkel Email: None To: Erika Subject: Erika,TED'S gonna FALL in Love with you if you... Message:

get any more open, honest and reasonable, girl... Ole TED don't make no bones about it, he's happy with practicin the 'new improved industrial strength DVD Knowledge', but ya know ole TED's just like everyone else,he's human, and always lookin for a little 'holy company'... I bin rejected before, by the likes of Miss Pauline Premie, and Janice Wilson too..And Marianne, well we had a fallin out over somethin she mighta misconstrued bout a talk TED had with his mentor, Mr.eDrek, here at EPO... Thought I mighta had a chance with some gal named Ms. SezYou (or SazYou, she couldn't make up her mind how to spell her own name...my twin brother FRANK told me that she must be a 'dim bulb' if she couldn't even spell her own name right)a few weeks back, but she disappeared...I had a lot in common with that gal, and told her so, in a right nice and sincere letter,but nothing came of it...(I think that she might not be a real person...probably some dude took the name off a Chinese take-out menu or somethin and was playin head games with ole TED...) Well, ole TED'S been bidin his time, rememberin #1 constantly, and doing #3 as much as possible,watching videos and trying to read all these posts you generated, but it does get lonely down here at the TRAC Center,specially with that ole cut up Dave Smith outa town... BTW, you got a twin sister who aint courtin no one? I know your taken, but you sho do seem like one fine woman... TED Farkel (dabblin, as usual...you know...writing fiction, architecture,gardening,music,the dogs, cats and youngins, plus the wide circle of interestin friends and kin folk...)

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Date: Sat, Mar 17, 2001 at 03:07:47 (GMT) From: Erika Email: None To: TED Farkel Subject: Erika,TED'S gonna FALL in Love with you if you... Message:

Ted, Wal, fust off, I done outed maself raht down below to our ol buddy E Windsor. Yu maht say that miz Sezyou/Sazyou (ah think there maht be sum lack o edickashun there) is mah evil twin. Anyhow, yu seem lahk a raht fine man, an effen I weren't awready hitched, ah maht cast mah eye yor way. Yup, Eureka

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Date: Sat, Mar 17, 2001 at 00:21:34 (GMT) From: Bin Liner Email: None To: Erika Subject: Hello Erika . Ever thought he was nice .. Message:

...to you because at that particular moment in the infinite continuum , he wanted his kids to learn music ?

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Date: Sat, Mar 17, 2001 at 03:09:26 (GMT) From: Erika Email: None To: Bin Liner Subject: Hello Erika . Ever thought he was nice .. Message:

Bin liner, Guess it's a possibility, but he's been great lots of other times, too. Erika

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Date: Fri, Mar 16, 2001 at 23:47:30 (GMT) From: Jim Email: None To: Erika Subject: Not to freak you out or anything ..... Message:

but have you thought of the implications of posting here without the benefit of a disguise? We've been told several ways at several times that Maharaji has EV monitor this site regularly. In that case, what could it mean that you, an apparently trusted loyalist, are openly suggesting that Maharaji should do something, anything?: I hope that M at some point publicly acknowledges his own evolution in understanding and apologizes for whatever confusion it has caused. Am I right in assuming that you weren't planning on telling him this next time you saw him? Well you have now. So you think he's easy to talk to? Let us know, will you?

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Date: Sat, Mar 17, 2001 at 02:00:16 (GMT) From: Erika Email: None To: Jim Subject: Not to freak you out or anything ..... Message:

Jim, Funny you should mention this. In fact, I was planning on telling him this, and have already drafted a letter to that effect. In fact I assume it's quite likely he might read stuff on this site, and might have already read my post. Erika

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Date: Sat, Mar 17, 2001 at 03:08:35 (GMT) From: Jim Email: None To: Erika Subject: Hey, wild guess -- are you 'OP' by chance? Message:

Anyone who was around when OP posted, back in the day, must necessarily be going 'um hm, wow, never thought of that, hmmmm' Well, are you?

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Date: Sat, Mar 17, 2001 at 03:10:50 (GMT) From: Erika Email: None To: Jim Subject: Hey, wild guess -- are you 'OP' by chance? Message:

Jim, Nope. Don't know who OP is. Definitely not me. Erika

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Date: Fri, Mar 16, 2001 at 22:27:19 (GMT) From: donner Email: None To: Erika Subject: Hi Message:

hi erika, nice to see you here and i appreciated your comments and thoughtfulness. a couple things come to mind that have frankly puzzled me for some time. i have a number of friends who still practice k and go to programs and 'love' m and follow him, so to speak. they have been aware, through me and others, of many of the booz, pot, sex, etc. stories for many years now. i cannot figure out how they compatmentalize such behaviour...not because all of what m has done is not entirely human but because his walk is so different then his talk. yet they continue to call him...in many such words, their great and respected teacher (or more in many cases). it surprises me some that you apparently have never heard such stories before recently reading m dettmers on this site, so perhaps you have not had to wrestle with the obvious contradictions until now. so, i would be interested to know more about your wrestling process as it unfolds. after i left in 87 for good i tried to meditate as usual and found that i really could not separate m from my meditation. found myself unconsciously doing pranam on the floor before i realized what i was doing (years of habit in beginning meditation), praying to him when is felt distracted (well, not really praying, rather subvocalizing habitual expressions of help me). i realized more then how linked these two were; m and k in my pattern life. and i ralized how much satsang i had heard over the years that created this linkage....you have heard it all...meditation is nothing with out the master's grace...if you need help, pray to me (assumption that he will hear and respond surely, hence quite an amazing teacher) and more. it is this linkage that is a center stage in these conversations. our loyalty to this person and how he relates to going within ourselves as part of our evolutionary process. Michael dettmers has written here about m's disregard to the sincere premies who moved into the ashram. i will write more about his disregard for the instructors,most of whom thought theywere dedicating their lives...for the rest of their lives, as he callously dismantled that program (a program of his own making). how unity school, airplanes,houses etc are amassed in the name of spreading k when really its about his own desires and interests or his family's. and don't you remember some of the fear tactics in his 'satsang'..break into a million pieces...fall off the cliff...etc etc. perhaps you are one of only a few who heard those messages and they entered into you differently then most of us. instructors lived in fear all the time. as their 'contact' they would bring me questions they were living with...personal doubts, wondering about the mixed messages they were giving, questions about the effectiveness of our work...and alway, always erika, they (we) were too affraid to ask...afraid to try to create conversation with our 'teacher' becasue he would yell, belittle, curse and do anything to keep any real dialogue totally absent from any and all 'trainings' that were conducted. this would drive me crazy and on the few occasions when i tried, ever so carerully, to brotch these subjects, i would be belittled, put off or what ever...so that over 10 years we had zero zero meaningful conversations. even your story of your 'conversation' with m about your guy/love, being torn, what to do, etc....did you ever imagine that there might be more time spent on the subject so important to you with your teacher? seems that none of us ever expected much in those terms...somewhere we knew he had set it up so that there were never any substantive conversations about extremely meaningful things in our lives (you seemed, from your story, and i was there then remember, to need considerably less then most of us might have hoped for from our teacher,best friend, master who we had dedicated so much to. and do you really find his programs 'inspiring' any more? same ole stuff really, same people, same songs, same message...that you surely have internalzed by now. tell me so and i wil believe you but frankly its hard to believe. well, i have to go now...perhaps more later...hoping you might respond. warmly michael donner

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Date: Fri, Mar 16, 2001 at 23:35:42 (GMT) From: Jim Email: None To: donner Subject: excellent post, donner (nt) Message:

fffff

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Date: Fri, Mar 16, 2001 at 23:30:55 (GMT) From: Erika Email: None To: donner Subject: Hi Message:

Donner, Thanks for your post. I honestly didn't know about any of this stuff to the extent it's been presented here. I knew that M smoked dope, drank, smoked cigarettes, had had marital problems...but that wasn't a problem for me: I never got the message that he was presenting himself as 'pure' in some spiritual, no-vices way. So this wasn't a contradiction. Hearing about the extent of it is definitely causing me to wrestle with things. Having a joint or a drink or two with dinner, or even an affair during a difficult time in one's marriage is one thing; heavy, daily drinking over a period of many years, or sexual liaisons with a wide variety of people is something else. In terms of the linkage between M and K, I think perhaps I would have had the same experience you talk about if I had left M in 1987. Today, the link for me between K and M is simply that he showed it to me and has (and is) inspiring me to take advantage of it. It's mine; it's within me, the door once opened is not his or anyone's to close. I had a lovely experience practicing this morning, and fully exxpect to continue to have lovely experiences, regardless of where I end up in my relationship with M. Makes me sad to hear that so many people lived in so much fear and that he didn't seem to do anything to counter that. As to whether I shouldn't have expected 'more' from him in terms of his reactions to my marriage/ashram dilemma, all I can say is that it felt fully addressed to me. He could have kept talking, but I got the advice and attention I needed in what he said. It was great. It's funny about the inspiration. I don't actually understand it myself, because on an intellectual, verbal level -- I've definitely heard it all before, and I don't know why I'm not sitting there going 'yeah, yeah, yeah.' But M's words often seem to resonate for me on an entirely non-intellectual level, like music or art, that feels great to me, and invites me inside, into my own experience. And to bring up another odd topic, which a number of people have commented on -- Darshan. It's kind of the same as why I listen to him speak. This is only true for me, and I have absolutely no logical explanation for it, but pretty much every time I've touched M's feet over the past 30 years (including 97 in Amaroo), I've had an immediate, intensely powerful and wonderful internal experience. Many times to the point that I got drawn so far inside that I literally lost external consciousness. While I have no explanation for it, I also can't explain it away. Warmly, Erika

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Date: Sat, Mar 17, 2001 at 03:17:01 (GMT) From: Francesca Email: None To: Erika Subject: DARSHAN??? Don't quite get it Message:

Erika: You say that the whole Perfect master devotee thing is not the same as it was in the good 'ol days, and that right around the time he 'got off the throne' you had the synchronized experience of also having that change for you -- and yet for 30 years you have continued to KISS HIS FEET???? What sort of relationship is that do you think? Not the feeling, I mean WHY do you do it? What does it mean? Don't you think possibly, that like Pavlov's dog, the foot smooching experience started in the Devotional days, and that the foot smooching experience is still firmly planted right back in Surdas' garden? Somehow I think that, although the active premies I know have toned down a lot of the 'external' aspects of the worship thing over the years, this Darshan and devotion stuff continues. I hope you don't pray to him also (please, please tell me you don't!!!). I frankly think M still has his hooks as deep in those I know and love that are active premies as he did in the 70s. That is my honest, unvarnished observation. I do find it to be unsettling. They never seem to want to examine it in the least, or think about it at all (god forbid, the mind!). It seems that, with many of my friends, he has gotten to have his cake and eat it too. He has slipped many notches over the years -- smokes, drinks, etc., seems to like his luxuries a bit too much -- yet supposedly that made him more human. And after all, he isn't who he said he was -- that was some sort of strange hippy trip we were on. And yet the devotion remains. After being gone for a while I was shocked at how cheezy those vids were. The slo mo, the Master stuff. Everything whispered 'worship me, for I am the one.' They tried that 'humanitarian leader' stuff way before I left. I didn't buy it then; I don't buy it now. After he left the stage (I couldn't wait for him to STOP), some of the premies around me were sucking in their breath, some sighing and moaning, and softly sobbing. It was totally sickening. I can't say that Tibetan Buddhism is perfect -- I've been shooting major holes into it as of late, but the grace and dignity with which ALL of the teachers I have seen and studied with (and there are many) have conducted themselves make Maharaji look like a cheap local TV station car salesman. There is no kind comparison I can make. It is overdone, it is histrionic, it is tacky. I'm sorry if you like it, but at least on this forum I can be honest about it. ==f

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Date: Sat, Mar 17, 2001 at 01:53:55 (GMT) From: La-ex Email: None To: Erika Subject: Erica,if you took the 'K' vow,you must have... Message:

said something like this: Oh my Guru Maharaj Ji, I am weak and filled with the impurities of this world. Strengthen me, purify me, and uplift me. Reveal the kingdom of heaven within inside of me. (I don't remember the rest, and am not sure if this is entirely accurate, but..) You said, in your post, that 'I never got the message that he was presenting himself as 'pure' in some spiritual, no vice way'. When you said that knowledge vow(I'm assuming you did, like I did, when I received K in 1972 from charanand), were you praying to the physical person of maharaji? Or was it the unseen supreme power that he referred to as 'guru maharji', that he supposedly represented?. You see, either way, don't you think his behavior is hypocritical and bizarre? If you're praying to him to purify you and remove the impurities of this world from you, isn't his personal behavior leaving at least a little bit to be desired? Does he look like a guy who has 'purified and uplifted himself'? And if the inner kingdom is SO incredible, why would he waste his time on things like pot, booze, gossip and unfulfilling one nighters, when THAT experience, THAT love, THAT bliss, is just a breath away, and always there? (OK, enough of THAT) Or, if you are praying to the 'formless gmj', shouldn't the guy in the body be a role model, as he is the physical representation of the supreme power? I don't get it. Another point, brought up by Pat Conlon and others.. These days, when he talks about Krishna( widely regarded as an incarnation of God) coming again and again to straighten things out... Is he referring to himself? Or is he telling us to be on the alert for 'Krishna' to reappear again? Obviously, I think he is referring to himself. don't you? This is another example of the 'I'm God, but I didn't really say I'm God' routine that he has always pulled, isn't it?('I'm God', to the devotees, but also 'I never said I'm God', in order to cover himself to the other people) Also, when he says that Krishna says'remember me at your last breath, so you can come to me'...is he telling us to remember Krishna at our last breath, or is he subtly telling us to remember him,Prem Rawat? Shouldn't he be absolutely clear about this? If for nothing else, to be clear for his students to understand.. What would you tell a new person about this 'Krishna' stuff? M is either promoting Krishna(highly unlikely), or he is insinuating that he is the modern day Krishna...right?...or do you have a better explanation... La-ex BTW, YOU should be running those silly EV seminars. You could show those 'Industial Strength Church Ladies' a thing or two about how to relate to ex-premies and non-premies. Seriously, we can talk to you... What's the secret? Maybe you're becoming.....one of...US....??

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Date: Sat, Mar 17, 2001 at 17:22:06 (GMT) From: Hal Email: None To: La-ex Subject: The vow Message:

I remember one of them anyway. It went like this: ' Oh my Guru Maharaji I am weak and ignorant and filled with THE IMPURITIES OF THIS WORLD. Kindly save me , Please protect me I surrender myself at your holy lotus feet ' This was a recommended prayer for ashram premies prior to commencement of meditation. I'm sure Maha didn't know that this was being said otherwise he would have put a stop to this nonsensical Hindu practice imported by off the wall Mahatmas........Yeah sure....

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Date: Sat, Mar 17, 2001 at 03:18:55 (GMT) From: Erika Email: None To: La-ex Subject: Erica,if you took the 'K' vow,you must have... Message:

La-ex, I do remember (although vaguely -- it's 28 years ago) taking the Knowledge vow. I do remember feeling like I needed to be purified and uplifted, but it was more about wanting to have a clear and positive experience of my own life and heart than wanting to be physicially pure or lead a 'spiritual' life. As for all your questions about how M's words jive with his actions, that's exactly why I'm thinking and talking about all this stuff. I'm disturbed at the lack of consonance. Erika

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Date: Sat, Mar 17, 2001 at 15:56:39 (GMT) From: gerry Email: None To: Erika Subject: Erica has a problem telling the truth Message:

I do remember (although vaguely -- it's 28 years ago) taking the Knowledge vow. I do remember feeling like I needed to be purified and uplifted, but it was more about wanting to have a clear and positive experience of my own life and heart than wanting to be physicially pure or lead a 'spiritual' life. The statement that it wasn't about leading a 'spiritual life' is, quite simply, a lie. As for all your questions about how M's words jive with his actions, that's exactly why I'm thinking and talking about all this stuff. I'm disturbed at the lack of consonance. I'm sure you are. And you'll conveniently be able to pull it all into some framework of reasonableness' which will allow you to go on 'practising' and 'progating.' Oh and let's not forget, the all important job of Maharajia Apologetica since we are kicking his pathetic ass so bad here on the internet he's getting desparate...

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Date: Sat, Mar 17, 2001 at 00:38:06 (GMT) From: Pat Conlon Email: None To: Erika Subject: Erika - darshan Message:

M's physical presence to a student is powerful but not to anyone. I have kown many people who have been near him who have not had K and they saw nothing in him. Why? Because that feeling is evoked by our expectations, love and faith. It is standard practice inside of the Beas guru tradition from which M came - bhakti yoga. I have soemtimes sardonically called it bhakti juju because it is operating on a psychic level. You created the experience yourself. He may also be a powerful yogi. I don't know because I haven't figured out for myself yet what K is. But that does not excuse him from behaving according to western standards of common decency and democracy. I feel better just not having an emotional or spiritual connection with him anymore. I think the thing that upsets me most is Dettmers' story about how M accidentally killed a man in India and then switched places with a premie and let him take the blame for the manslaughter charges. That really creeps me. It's so crooked and cowardly. I prefer not knowing people like that.

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Date: Sat, Mar 17, 2001 at 00:36:18 (GMT) From: donner Email: None To: Erika Subject: Hi Message:

thanks for taking the time to respond. sincerely

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Date: Fri, Mar 16, 2001 at 23:14:35 (GMT) From: guy rollins Email: guy@architx.com To: donner Subject: Hi Message:

Donner scribbled [g]: this would drive me crazy and on the few occasions when i tried, ever so carerully, to brotch these subjects, i would be belittled, put off or what ever...so that over 10 years we had zero zero meaningful conversations. even your story of your 'conversation' with m about your guy/love, being torn, what to do, etc....did you ever imagine that there might be more time spent on the subject so important to you with your teacher? seems that none of us ever expected much in those terms...somewhere we knew he had set it up so that there were never any substantive conversations about extremely meaningful things in our lives (you seemed, from your story, and i was there then remember, to need considerably less then most of us might have hoped for from our teacher,best friend, master who we had dedicated so much to. ***** Good point, Michael. For someone who was so verbose on the stage, M had very little to say on a personal level. As Erika reported, M usually turned it into a joke. Based on what I know now, I would call that a good defense, a way to create separation. Guy

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Date: Fri, Mar 16, 2001 at 21:52:53 (GMT) From: Richard Email: None To: Erika Subject: I nominate Erika for all time **BEST** premie to.. Message:

I nominate Erika for all time best premie to ever post here. You are intelligent, eloquent, not afraid to answer questions - in fact you appear to have answered everyones' questions, courteous - you replied to every single post. I can't say enough. You raise the standard for PWK's posting here. And I always thought you did a fab job at Millenium as well. Richard - dangerously close to air kissing you

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Date: Sat, Mar 17, 2001 at 01:42:56 (GMT) From: Pat Conlon Email: None To: Richard Subject: I nominate Erika for all time **BEST** premie to.. Message:

I second that emotion.

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Date: Fri, Mar 16, 2001 at 22:17:57 (GMT) From: Erika Email: None To: Richard Subject: I nominate Erika for all time **BEST** premie to.. Message:

Richard, Kiss, kiss. And I'm sure this is something all good premies aspire to...being voted the best premie to post on the EPO (g) Love, Erika

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Date: Fri, Mar 16, 2001 at 23:49:27 (GMT) From: Jim Email: None To: Erika Subject: Hey, that's funny! Message:

Good one!

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Date: Fri, Mar 16, 2001 at 19:49:07 (GMT) From: Francesca Email: None To: Erika Subject: Appreciate your honesty ... Message:

as always, and your post. Your point of view is welcome because ... well ... I don't need to rationlize it. I've always liked you and thought you shot straight from the hip, as you saw things. You are honest, and you are not seeking to convince anyone of anything, as many of us aren't. We are calling it as we see it, and so can you, as far as I'm concerned. I can't say that your post changes my views, but it certainly doesn't 'harden' them, nor do I feel a need to defend them, either. I have friends and family that are still following M and I don't tell them the information that is on this forum and we don't discuss such things. I can't understand it for the life of me, but I feel like I need to be supportive of people's inner and outer search if I care about them. This forum has been one of the few places (besides my home) where I can say what I think about this freely to current and ex-prems. The forum has, however, allowed me to realize that I don't need to listen to them praise M, either, out of kindness, while I puke inside. If they want to know, they must peek into Pandora's box. You have the courage, and I'm not going to predict what will be the outcome of your interactions here. You are your own unique self, as we all are. Glad you chose the husband, and being true to yourself. I also hope others here respect your forthrightness. Our choices are not set in stone. We make new ones every second. You are a welcome voice. With love, Francesca

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Date: Fri, Mar 16, 2001 at 21:54:45 (GMT) From: Erika Email: None To: Francesca Subject: Appreciate your honesty ... Message:

Hey Francesca! I remember you, too, and hope you're well and happy. those were wild days. I have to say, I did have a spectacularly fun time writing the music for Millenium(g)... Good luck on continuing to find your own way, Love, E

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Date: Fri, Mar 16, 2001 at 18:43:29 (GMT) From: Joe Email: None To: Erika Subject: Hi Erika Message:

Hi Erika, Joe Whalen in San Francisco. Actually, I received knowledge in 1973 in Omaha, Nebraska from Mahatma Vijayanand in 1973. I took a bus there about 500 miles with Mary Holle, who also received knowledge. Then I remember you from COLL. We used to fight some, as I remember. I've been in contact with a number of ex-COLL people, like Steve Droullard (who is writing a 'Journey,' )and his wife Alicia, Babs Johnson, Nona Vickers, Laura Davis, and a bunch more. One of the nice things about the internet is it has put me back in touch with people I loved, but hadn't talked to in 20 years. I was also interviewed by Kurt. I still have the email from this fact-checker about the points he wanted to include. Do you have a copy of the article? Is it available to see, just out of curiosity? Kurt told me his take the article would be that you and David used to be in a raving cult, including that you told him that Astrodome was going to take off (I told him I didn't think you really believed that), but that the cult had transformed into something less noxious, that in effect he got his brother and sister back after feeling he had lost them to a cult. You know, the kind of take of no ashram anymore, so no cult anymore. Anyhow, it would be great to see the article. I've enjoyed a lot of other stuff Kurt has written over the years. Didn't he go from New York Magazine to an on-line publication? Anyhow, it's great to have you here. When I get a chance, I'll respond to some of what you've had to say. I agree with La-ex, that it's highly unusual to hear from a current follower of Maharaji who wants to openly examine things. That's great to hear. I'm sure this would have been a lot easier for you if you had gotten full information all along, instead of having to get it from people who have an axe to grind with Maharaji. I have never found Maharaji, or the people around him, forthcoming about much of anything. Anyhow, great to hear from you. Joe Whalen

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Date: Fri, Mar 16, 2001 at 22:00:25 (GMT) From: Erika Email: None To: Joe Subject: Hi Erika Message:

Joe, I definintely remember you, too. Kurt's article never did get published, but I wish that it had. The final version was pretty balanced, from my point of view. I'm very surprised that Kurt would have told you that I said I thought the Astrodome was going to take off, because I never said that to him, and he's a stickler for accuracy. I wouldn't have said it, because I didn't believe it, and thought it was a stupid distraction (and in fact enjoyed it when M poo-poo'ed the idea at a meeting I was at in Houston that summer). Cheers to Omaha, Erika

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Date: Fri, Mar 16, 2001 at 22:23:07 (GMT) From: Joe Email: None To: Erika Subject: Hi Erika Message:

Is it possible to see the 'final version?' It would be interesting to read, since I spent quite a bit of time writing emails to Kurt. As I said, I told Kurt I didn't think you believed that, but he said you told him that, nonetheless.

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Date: Fri, Mar 16, 2001 at 19:44:49 (GMT) From: Joe Email: None To: Erika Subject: A few of comments Message:

Erika, Thanks again for the post. I just wanted to comment on a few things you said. I practice Knowledge and really enjoy it, and I consider M my teacher and find his talks inspiring and focusing. So, anybody who needs to flame me or discount me, or not listen to anything else I have to say because I’m a 'cultist;' please – be my guest. There are a number of people I know who still practice the meditation techniques that they got as premies, and say they enjoy it, but they no longer recognize Maharaji as having anything to do with what they get out of it Personally, the meditation techniques are too associated with Maharaji for me to want to do them. I can't get past the belief, which I know you held (or at least said you held), that everything I experienced that was positive came from Maharaji's 'grace' or his 'love.' Indeed, that's what he told us. As such, the techniques are much too intertwined with something that I now consider deceitful, or at least erroneous, for me to want to continue doing them. But I don't think anyone is going to 'discount' you for doing them yourself, and there are people who enjoy doing them but don't feel the need to be associated with Maharaji. I think some of us might say that Maharaji has fraudulently imposed himself in the middle of all that, for personal gain, and that he simply isn't necessary to whatever it is you like about practicing knowledge. I’ve been reading this board on and off for a long time. For years, it mostly felt crappy and hateful and self-aggrandizing to me. Recently, though, a number of more balanced and reasonable voices have prevailed (and I’m not just talking about the PAMs -- hey, Mikes and Guy). Speaking as someone who has been involved with this Forum for a long time, off and on, I think I agree with some of what you are saying about this. But I've also had the advantage of meeting a number of the people who you might think were saying 'crappy' or 'hateful' things, so you probably only have a very limited view on that, just like you say you are in contact with premies, and hence perhaps have a broader view of what they are thinking these days. Also, in the earlier years, there were a lot more premies coming on the site and being a bit obnoxious, and really, only the more, shall we say, vocally blunt, were posting. I've had premies tell me that I am nothing but a hateful, bitter, blaming-others person because I'm attempting to hold Maharaji responsible for some of his actions, and that simply isn't true. So the hateful stuff goes both ways. For some reason, premies have largely disappeared from the Forum, and the few that remain have moved from premie to ex-premie. Also, there are a lot of people who got hurt pretty badly as premies, certainly a lot worse than me, and as public forum that allows open discussion, something not allowed at all on any of the EV/Maharaji sites, there isn't any other forum where people can do that, and so anger can get expressed here. I agree, the tone has changed, though, and I think it's because there are now many more people posting and reading this site, and that tends to moderate things, just having a broader cross-section of people. I’ve read a lot of things over the past few weeks that disturb me deeply – mainly about M’s problem drinking and sexual irresponsibility, and the fact that he seems to ha let the Jagdeo issue just slide away. I want to find out as much as I can about these things, and intend to grill current PAMs I know very forcefully. Why is it that Maharaji himself isn't accessible to answer your concerns? Why is it that PAMs are the ones who you would ask, and what do you think they might be able to tell you? I mean, do you believe what Michael Dettmers says, which supports what others told me, whom I also trust enormously, or not? By the way, back when I left the cult in 1983, I sent several registered-mail letters to Maharaji, sincerely asking questions that directly pertained to my life. I never got an answer to even one of them. I even gave one to an Intitiator to give to him. In the past two years, I have sent a number of emails and letters to Maharaji's website, asking about the things I had heard, and my concerns about misrepresentations on the Internet. Again, no response whatsoever. Maybe because you knew Michael, or someone who could raise your concerns directly to M, he paid attention to it. I think that didn't apply to the vast majority of other premies. The thing I want to take issue with though, is the idea that following M has always been about fear and abuse – for everyone. Well, clearly it wasn't, and if you read this Forum for any time, you will see that people have all kinds of views on this. Some people were always 'fringe' premies. They never took half of what Maharaji said seriously, or chose to ingore it. They also never trashed their lives to try to devote it to him 100%, whether out of fear, love, idealism or whatever. So, for many of them it was 'get high' and it's all about love, and that was it, and they didn't alter their lives all that much to be premies. It just wasn't such a big deal. But I know for me, a lot of what Maharaji said in 1977-1983 especially, was extremely fear-based, and I know lots of other people who see it the same way. I don't know how you could possibly sit through that satsang at Kissimee, or the ashram meeting at Kissimee, and not experience fear. Maybe some people didn't, but many people, including me, did. I think I'm one of those people who tends to take things literally, but of course when it's the Perfect Master, the 'Superior Power in Person,' how else should you take it? Also, Erika, you just can't deny the fear he put into us about either stopping the practice of knowledge, not devoting ourselves to him, or leaving the ashram. It really did happen, as quoted on this website, and as I heard with my own ears. I recall him telling us on Christmas Day, 1979 that if we didn't devote our lives to him, we would go to Hell. Okay, so I'm a Catholic boy, so that had particular resonance. But hey, almost anyone who grew up in American Society knows hell is a pretty bad thing -- eternal and bad. And if the living Perfect Master is telling you that, and you believe him, you are going to be afraid. Note also, that Maharaji has never taken one shred of public responsbility for saying those things. His response is either to blame the victim, or those around him, or to lie. [Have you seen the Answers to the FAQs on the Elan Vital website? Do you think they are accurate? Do you think Maharaji never portrayed himself as the incarnation of God (whether that meant anything to YOU or not, it might have meant something to others.] Also, most people, including me, never even met Maharaji. I lived in his ashrams for almost 10 years, and I never even talked to him, even once. But I saw him be amazingly abusive to people in ways that make me physically ill. And now we are hearing more. No, he wasn't personally abusive to me, but then he never had the opportunity, thank God. Plus, I have to call a spade a spade, and a lot of what he said to us, I categorize as abuse, because that's what it is, even if he didn't think so. The way you interpreted all of that only you know, but good for you if you interpreted all that in a positive way, and didn't get the negative effects many others did. A week or so later, in Miami, I was in a room alone with M, and he said, 'So, Erika, how are you?' And I said, 'Well, it was really hard to come here, Maharaji.' Why was it hard to come there? I thought you said it was 'cool?' Why were you seeking his approval about whether or not you should get married? I mean, if you really believed that everything Maharaji said was about loving and developing as a human being, and if you felt love for the guy you wanted to marry, why did you feel trepidation about approaching M about this -- I mean if there was no fear involved, if it was just about following the love? Something doesn't quite fit in that story. But I have no doubt Maharaji could be quite a nice guy, and often is. But what is your point of that? Is it only your, personal experience of him being nice to that matters? He was nice to you, maybe even loving, but what about the bigger picture? How 'loving' was he to all the other premies who, for example, he dumped out of the ashrams in 1983, including sticking them with the debts, which, according to people who know, he hardly even thought about? He just did it, without much apparent concern at all for the real human beings living there, and, of course, never taking any responsibility for it. What kind of a nice, loving, guy does that? This kindness, clarity and support have characterized all my interactions with M over the years – and, as in the situation above, I feel I’ve always been very honest with him and never felt any negative repercussions. Well, this is a personal relationship, or so it seems. One thing I remember about you, if you don't mind, was that you were very interested, and wanted, a personal relationship with the person, the guru, the master, Guru Maharaj Ji. I recall devotional love songs, and I felt that was your ambition. You wanted to be as physically close to Maharaji personally as possible, because you loved him. But I'd just like to say, that you aren't the first person I've talked to, who has held on having faith in Maharaji based on a couple of positive interractions with him. Is that adequate? I thought I loved Maharaji too, but I don't think it was love, because I didn't know the guy at all, and so love is really not possible. It isn't love, it was something else. But I have to say, I never was really attracted to Maharaji, and I never found him particularly inspiring. I more found the other premies inspiring, and I did sometimes get a group high in his presence, although even that went away eventually. By the way, Erika, lots of people have the ability to make you feel they really care about you, focus on you, and maybe even inspire you, but that doesn't mean they really do. Actions are louder than words, as they say, and Maharaji's actions, even aside from the atrocities in his personal life, don't reflect very well on him. Bill Clinton is a good example of this ability. I met him once, and others have agreed with me, that he is extremely charismatic, and makes you feel that he is your friend and concerned about you, but somehow I doubt that's really true. Does M have the same ability? Maybe. Thanks again, Erika, and all the best. Joe Whalen

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Date: Fri, Mar 16, 2001 at 22:15:47 (GMT) From: Erika Email: None To: Joe Subject: A few of comments Message:

Joe, Passionate post, lots to think about. thanks, Erika

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Date: Sat, Mar 17, 2001 at 19:15:43 (GMT) From: Joe Email: None To: Erika Subject: I feel for ya Erika Message:

I recall going through what you may be going through now. I know it's not easy. Good luck. Just remember there are people here, and hopefully elsewhere, you will support you.

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Date: Fri, Mar 16, 2001 at 17:09:44 (GMT) From: Jim Email: None To: Erika Subject: If you're Erika Andersen, did u read Kurt's story? Message:

Erika, If you're Erika Andersen (Anderson?), I wonder, did you ever read your brother's New Yorker story about Maharaji? The one that never ran but the one for which your brother borrowed and never returned my copy of Who is Guru Maharaj Ji? The one for which both Joe and I spent a fair bit of time talking and emailing Kurt all of our crappy, hateful and self-aggrandizing thoughts? By the way, this self-agrrandizing thing, how does it work? It's not like touting your own special relationship with the Lord of the Universe, is it? How about proclaiming to be the Lord of the Universe? I've never really gotten that thing down. Perhaps you could explain it to us.

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Date: Fri, Mar 16, 2001 at 18:06:15 (GMT) From: Erika Email: None To: Jim Subject: If you're Erika Andersen, did u read Kurt's story? Message:

Jim, Yes, I am Erika Andersen, and Kurt interviewed me for the article, and we discussed it at great length. I was disappointed that it was never published, because I think it was a pretty balanced look at M, both positive and negative. I'm definitely the wrong person to explain the 'Lord of the Universe' thing. I think because I wasn't raised in any religion, I didn't come in with much of an idea about what 'Lord' meant, and so my own personal definition for that odd term was 'a magical being who is so totally merged with the infinite that he knows all, sees all' -- some weird cross between Superman and Carnac the Magnificent. I decided that was goofy right around the time he asked people to stop saying it, so from my point of view it looked like him coming to the same conclusion I was, rather than revisionism (and yes, that is definitely self-aggrandizing on my part). Erika

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Date: Sat, Mar 17, 2001 at 00:19:23 (GMT) From: Jim Email: None To: Erika Subject: If you're Erika Andersen, did u read Kurt's story? Message:

Erika, Have you and I ever communciated with each other before? Honestly, now. Have we? See, I've been thinking .... By the way, do you think that Kurt wrote the same article he would have written if he wasn't worried about alienating his brother and sister?

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Date: Sat, Mar 17, 2001 at 03:25:03 (GMT) From: Erika Email: None To: Jim Subject: If you're Erika Andersen, did u read Kurt's story? Message:

Jim, I don't think we have ever communicated before. Interesting thought, about Kurt being worried about alienating us. If you knew Kurt better, I think you'd probably realize that's not likely. He's never been one to worry much about what people think of him. Erika

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Date: Sat, Mar 17, 2001 at 03:26:35 (GMT) From: Jim Email: None To: Erika Subject: Hate to disappoint you Message:

But that's what he told me.

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Date: Fri, Mar 16, 2001 at 16:56:23 (GMT) From: la-ex Email: None To: Erika Subject: Hi Erika.You are brave, but be ready to.... Message:

stand true to your principles, OK? I enjoyed reading your post, and believe your personal story with m and the fact that you have only experienced sweet things with him as your teacher. I commend you on your openness and willingness to take on the subject of m and k on this site. You must be a secure person to do so. It's sad that almost every premie I know is unwilling to step into the arena of honest, common sense dialog about this subject that you have just done. It would help so many people. Most of all, them and their teacher,m... One word I would like to share with you: I think I was in your position about a year ago... I was willing to look at everything, even question things quite a bit, especially when I saw how wierd the EV organization and the 'Industrial strength church ladies' (forever indebted to Pat Conlon for that one)had become, and how they were basically just screwing up any chance of relating to good, honest people in the larger community. I came here, and found so much insight, wit, candor, rancor and everything else under the sun, that I just stayed on..and on..it also made me wonder why I couldn't do that on a maharaji site...after all, you'd think he'd welcome the communication between people, all talking about the benefits of K, right?...might even be a good advertisement for lurking aspirants....why not?...(a drip began) I credit this e-community with helping me understand so much that has helped me to re-evaluate my life and relationship with m and the practice of k for so many years. A dam was ready to break in my life. And EPO was like a 'service pool'(old dlm days, ready to plug in brother?)of interesting and eclectic charcters that were ready to help with the, let's say, 'dam demolition,removal and reconstruction'.(picks, shovels,dynamite,20 mule borax teams,you name it, you'll find it here..) I have to say, that not one person ever ridiculed me or made me feel unwelcome. A few interesting arguments, but for the most part people just let me be... I sense that you are secure enough to examine and question these issues. I will tell you from my own experience that this information will absolutely change everything in ways more far reaching than you might imagine today. You hinted at that today. Thoughts, feelings, understandings and realizations about this entire thing have become far different than I would have ever imagined. My entire life has been changed, simply by information. Information that I should have been allowed to know, but was kept from me for so many years. It makes you wonder...how much do we not know? So, Hi, and welcome, and if you're willing to be open, honest and candid, get ready for the ride of your life... Mine has been wonderful: although a little rocky at first, I'm having the time of my life, and life shows promise of developing in new ways that are truly wonderful...and far more beautiful without m as the master....I know that might sound strange to you, but we were all in a cult that was far more intrusive in our lives than we realized...extricating oneself is challenging, but exhilarating too...it's all part of the big dance, and life moves on and on...BTW, I honestly feel that m needs to do the same, and that in some ways he probably respects the funny and well intentioned EPO posters more than the 'yes men' that he is generally surrounded by...(not that he'll admit that right now, but maybe one day...after all, the Berlin Wall came down, and that, to me, was a miracle..) And you have to admit, as far as humor goes (and we all do agree, M has at times shown an outrageous sense of humor), well, EPO has won that contest, hands down, over the EV sites... Sincerely, La-ex PS:About confronting current PAMS about this stuff:I know a few other premies who are currently doing this...not sure what the results have been yet, but I will stay up to date about it.. PS#2:I think you ought to teach some drumming at TED'S place....you, TED, and E.Windsor, that would be rich...

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Date: Fri, Mar 16, 2001 at 18:17:23 (GMT) From: Erika Email: None To: la-ex Subject: Hi Erika.You are brave, but be ready to.... Message:

La-ex, Thanks for your lovely response. I'm definitely committed to the process of understanding, and this is in many a ways a great source for getting the rest of the picture. And I agree with you about the humor here -- some posts make me laugh out loud, and senses of humor are often sadly missing in EV land -- except, ironically, for M's outrageous one. The one way, I think, in which my experience is different than yours is that I do have these conversations with current premies, and have found many of my friends very open to this kind of dialogue. Of course, the 'industrial strenght church ladies' (great phrase, love it) exist -- but do in some form an every organization I've ever had anything to do with. But I know lots of, as you say, interesting and eclectic and non-religious characters among my friends who are students of M. And, I have to say, even some of the church ladies are starting to realize that they're alienating lots of good folks, and questioning their own 'holier than thou' behaviors. Warmly, Erika

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Date: Fri, Mar 16, 2001 at 16:18:48 (GMT) From: Susan Email: None To: Erika Subject: Hi Message:

Dear Erika, I appreciate the honesty in your post. It is great that you want to examine things honestly. Erika, I do not think I know you, but I did know some premies I am sort of reminded of. To this day, I remember this one premie couple with fondness and respect, though as the years have gone on I do see a few things I did not then. I will not use their names but they were 'householders' in the old Miami community, and just the nicest, most together people I had ever met in premie world. As a young premie they were super kind to me, drove me to satsang sometimes, and also modeled that you can be 'normal' and be a premie back in the days when looking 'normal' was rare. They had good jobs, were well spoken, and did only as much satsang, service and meditiation as they could without ruining the rest of their lives. This was 1975-1979....when almost everyone was joining the ashram. I went to Miami about 1990 and visited with her, and was suprised she did not share the bitter feelings I had about the cult. They also continued in a life I would say paralelled yours, good jobs, nice people, great kids......she was a model mom and I learned a lot from her. I was about to say I am not judging but that isn't true, I am about to judge. There were always premies who didn't take what Rawat said 100% literally, and there were always premies who took care of themsleves and lived by their own rules. Now, I admire those people, but only to an extent. Because honestly, even though they were taking care of themselves, to do so they had to rationalize that what Rawat was saying ( about ashrams) was for others ( not them ) and more importantly turn a blind eye to what was going on with the rest of the premies. Let's say you were really Rawat's teacher's pet, as Jim implied, lets say he really did treat you with kindness respect and was wonderful to you, would it excuse what happened to so many others? I know from your post you will say of course not, it is obvious you care about others from your post ( and thank you for caring about the Jagdeo is specifically ). But I do think a mentality of not caring about eachother was fostered in the cult while I was there, esecially in the very late 70's. I am not sure if any of this will have meaning for your proccess but take it or leave it. Erika, I encourage you to continue your self examination, and I encourage you to examine Mr. Rawat not just in reference to yourself, but also as an advocate for the other human beings in this world. The concept of 'judging' Rawat is of course forbidden in the cult world, that is one of the hallmarks of a cult. A double bind that traps you. Thanks for posting. I enjoyed too your humor with the Cerebral Michael and the Salt of the Earth Michael...that was a kick. Also, in terms of your ashram struggle back then, remember, the Michaels both salt and cerebral have reported Rawat often would make others do his dirtywork, so he very likely told Michael cerebral that you should stay, and for whatever reason ( maybe he liked you ) didn't have the guts to say it to your face.

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Date: Fri, Mar 16, 2001 at 18:24:19 (GMT) From: Erika Email: None To: Susan Subject: Hi Message:

Susan, You raise a good point about thinking about M's impact on the larger scale, and I'll certainly think about it. I do take issue with the following sentence: 'The concept of 'judging' Rawat is of course forbidden in the cult world, that is one of the hallmarks of a cult.' I don't know what you mean by that. If you mean that it's 'forbidden' (and what does that look like?) to take issue with stuff he says, or to think he's made mistakes, or to question his choices -- then I'd have to disagree with you. I'm doing that right now. Respectfully, Erika

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Date: Fri, Mar 16, 2001 at 19:03:04 (GMT) From: Susan Email: None To: Erika Subject: forbidden Message:

Erika, Remember, I have not been around for a long time. But there was without a doubt no tolerance when I was around for questioning M's actions. I recognize that you are questioning, and I respect it, but I do think that you are engaging in 'forbidden' behavior. My guess is there are premies reading your post shaking their heads about how confused you must be right now. I also would bet you are going to be labeled a possible ex sympathizer because of your post and will be 'watched'. I hope that clarifies what I meant. I respect what you said in your post. Susan

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Date: Fri, Mar 16, 2001 at 23:52:12 (GMT) From: Francesca Email: None To: Susan Subject: Susan, my n/t comment below was meant to be ... Message:

directed to you. I appreciate your 'depth charges' and your ability to stay on point. I must say that to me you never come off as someone with an axe to grind, only as one with a certain unique view on things due to your own experiences. And you continue to express it well. Thanks for your input ... I continue to read your threads in the FV web forum. Love, f

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Date: Fri, Mar 16, 2001 at 20:01:23 (GMT) From: Francesca Email: None To: Susan Subject: I appreciate the heck out of you ;-) n/t Message:

appreciate

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Date: Fri, Mar 16, 2001 at 17:05:09 (GMT) From: la-ex Email: None To: Susan Subject: Susan, we have Salty Mike and Cerebral MIke nt Message:

nt

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Date: Fri, Mar 16, 2001 at 16:04:19 (GMT) From: Rollins Email: guy@architx.com To: Erika Subject: Hi Message:

Erika, hello: Beautiful post. I respect you for taking responsibility for your life and your own experience -- and hope business is good, too :-) To be brief: I can confirm that M would say things about people behind their backs that was opposite to what he said to their face. I saw it as a bystander and witnessed it when it happened to me (frequently). Another item that has been mentioned -- not taking responsibility: I was the scapegoat, in part (because there was one other), for the Hawker Siddley purchase, which I had counseled against. So I can verify that type of behavior happened (too often). As far as fear goes, I believe that to be true, also. I'm not talking about Nazi style fear and intimidation, but more the fear that if you didn't perform, there were plenty of others who would take your place. This fear was a result of being close to him, and not something that would be apparent from any distance, nor something inherent in the practice or the discussion of K. [I realize there is a lot more that could be said about this subject, which I'm sure can be addressed by others more eloquently.] I know that I accepted these situations at the time, because it just didn't matter. I had, as I mentioned yesterday, experiences that were so wonderful that I was willing to accept my situation if it was temporarily unpleasant. But ultimately, in any organization, the tone of the whole group comes from the top. I've always found that to be true, and specially in DLM/EV. I can't confirm things to which I wasn't a witness. However, I think you get a pretty accurate picture of the scene around M from MVD and Donner. My best guess: Nothing has changed.

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Date: Fri, Mar 16, 2001 at 18:28:56 (GMT) From: Erika Email: None To: Rollins Subject: Hi Message:

Guy, Thanks for your post -- and business is great! Your info is helpful to me. I've noticed the heavy fear motivation in people working full-time around M over the years (if you don't perform, there are thousands of others to take your place), and have pointed it out to various PAMs, who have been responsive in varying degrees. I do get the feeling the situation around M has changed some, but certainly not as much as anyone would want. Warmly, Erika

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Date: Fri, Mar 16, 2001 at 15:27:39 (GMT) From: Connie Email: None To: Erika Subject: Hi Erica, a question Message:

Thanks for your refreshingly honest post. I understand your sweet times with m, I also understand what Wolfi so touchingly posted. You said: 'I’ve been reading this board on and off for a long time.' Why have you been coming here periodically over a long time frame? I hadn't been looking here very long before posting. Of course I knew about it for years, but never felt the desire to look, until recently. It seems to me that those who come here, be it 'lurkers' or posters, fall into a few categories: 1) those seeking answers 2) those wanting help 3) those wanting to offer support 4) those monitoring and reporting to EV 5) those who stumble upon it by mistake 6) those being 'naughty' 7) those being curious 8) those wanting to disrupt/'flame' I fell into 1), and now 2). It was a decisive act on my part. Looking forward to your response. Thanks and all the best. C

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Date: Fri, Mar 16, 2001 at 18:34:38 (GMT) From: Erika Email: None To: Connie Subject: Hi Erica, a question Message:

Connie, Great question. I'd say number 7, curiosity, was/is a big one for me. But I think my other motivations aren't on your list (although it's a good list). As clearly as I can see it, I've always felt like I owed it to myself to stay open to various points of view; I wasn't raised in a religion, and I never wanted to be religious. So that's one. The other is, in terms of why I started to post, I just felt as though I wanted to have my voice in here; a different voice from that of most others here, with a different point of view. Felt like that might be useful and healthy for you guys, and it would also draw more thought-provoking info to me. Warmly, Erika

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Date: Fri, Mar 16, 2001 at 13:17:52 (GMT) From: wolfi Email: None To: Erika Subject: Hi Message:

Thank you for telling your story with a calm mind and a warm heart. I personally don't feel hurt or any anger towards M.I always stayed more ore less a second row premie. I could not move into an Ashram (1973)cause my girlfriend got pragnant. So the advice of Mohani Bai (our Mahatma that time)was to live my devotion as a householder.I got married before M got marrried and my son was born before M's eldest daughter was born ...etc. Maharaji has awaken in me the sweetest feelings I ever felt and in that sense he will always be the one who does it or it happened to me cause I really trusted to open my heart to him. Last time I had darshan was in Amaroo 97 there I came to him with my head up and full of joy to say and old friend I'm glad that you are still alive and I'm still alive and that I've been grown and that K is the reason why I learnt so sweetly. But being on the Amaroocampsite, I start wondering. I would have nobody liked to invite. It was announced from M himself that there everything is simple and we have time to be together in a sweet sorrounding. But for a free person in may opinion this is no good place to stay. You get checked everywhere. I could see how much pressure there was on people having responsiblities. And the most part of the land was for M and his family. Premies had to hang out on the Foodarea in the hot blistering sun. To many busy premies running around controlling things that needs no control otherwise there are some things to hide. There was at least this fear, that when something happens what M does not like and he will cancell the whole event, Oh that would be something to sent all this people home. Anyway I have no proof that m had said this but I heart it many times and not only at this programm. As an oldtimer I was used to a lot off things that were a little bit strange. But on the otherhand so many premies even I tried again and again to work on the fact, that we can prensent this K and M in an open, integer, reasonabel and honest way. Being in this Amaroocamp I saw a lot of contradiction ...like: don't say Maharaji learn to say he is the Mainspeaker or Principal, it is amaroo, but when you talk to people, say it's Ivory's Rock Confrencecenter....and so on. Okay this are little thing and I don't want to over emphasise it, but why? Okay they gave explanations why to prentend that this is not M's land even so he is the Boss.Everything happen's what he wants, or what a group of people like to do for him, to please him. Oh we have to built an amphtheatre for 4000 people and a tenniscourt for him. This would be somehow okay for me, when m would'not had pronounced the event in a peacefull natural place. I never would like to have holidays on this camp, maybe in the part where M is living. But for me it seemed not possible to go ther for a walk. This was absolutly forbidden. I'm sure you know how scarey the scene get's when there is a lot of security guys. This time we had even hired securities, you know with guns and sunglases...okay everything normal...I know. I myself had a service, this time it was more to help an old friend to do the banking job. It's not that I have a proof for anything but I allowed myself to see this whole event through the eyes of my mother or my kolleegs of my job and my conclusion was that would say it's absurd to spent youre time like this. Of course there were moments I enjoied and then I even could have fun in a stupid souvenierjob to buy something to remember this all my life. Another thing for me are this strange Videoevenings, I'm meyself are 52Years old, not old enough to spent hundreds of evenings with people looking to a man on TV telling me something I have to digest silently. Now we have broadcasting, now it'really moving foreward, since 28 Years it's moving foreward, I'm afraid that they reach the goal when I've left the planet. It's ironic I know, but this humor I learnt from M. A few weeks before I found this ex-premiesite, I found M's website and by reading his site I really felt: this is to stupid, now I have to go on in my life without a teacher, I tell you this was a little schock. Why this is stupid? I thougt they or he is giving stupid anserws toimaginay questions, what the hell they are talking about, for example: Has M ever said he is god? No M never had said he is God. I thougt why tis on a website today, who the hell is intersted in that when someone want's some information.The next i remember was: Is M supported by the Nonprofitorganisation. No of course not. This seemed to me so stupid. At least would have liked to suggest my friends to visit M's website.I was really in a strange mood on this day comming home to my wife telling her that. The excuse that this is a little bit too much americane style, does not work anymore. I don't thing I'm to sensitive but sorry M all the years we've heart that we have to improof the standard and I've felt my standard is not good enough and now this personall website. It's technical okay but what kind of impression one can get from this. A few days later I was searching his website with a searchmachine because I'very new to this internetmedium and I stumpeld and fall to this ex-premiesite (since 2 montht). After a while reading this exsite, the stupid questions and answers from M's website make sense to me. M talking on his website about controwerses going on, I did not know what he was meaning with that, I thougt everything is okay, I did't had any information even of my premiefriends working busy in the organisation that there are big controverses. Hey they knew about this website but nobody told it me or my wife (she has more ontact). So I started reading the exsite, I printed the intersting parts and took it home for my wife and a friend of her and we now talk a lot about everything much more freely. I specially read the chapters from the book soulrush and yeah this was my history, with everything love, doubts, bliss, helplessness, all the wonderfull premies, all the cool ones, the bongos, I loved everything so much, that sometimes M was not so impotened to me. He was anyway out of reach, I had to deal with the premies and their stories and concepts, crazy and kind, yeah crazy and kind but water runs to a bassin until it is full ( sorry I get swept away)Hey everyone out there: Thanks for having a time together and please Maharaji don't mess it completly. I don't feel hurt maybe a little bit fooled, maybe I donated too much money all this years. I could drive a better car or at least my kids, but I think this is nothing in realation to what happend for example to ashramis being under pressure no sex allowed and no care for this situation, broken carreers and broken hearts. M used to say: 'never leave a room with doubt in youre mind' for me it never meant leave my mind back in the room and leave. I've been told from another premie, that M once said: 'Use youre brain and follow youre heart. This I will do. let's have a party love wolfi ............I change it to woolfy in respect for the english speaking population

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Date: Fri, Mar 16, 2001 at 23:41:56 (GMT) From: Jim Email: None To: wolfi Subject: excellent post, wolfi Message:

I read it this morning before running off to court. Really well put, all of it. Thanks.

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Date: Fri, Mar 16, 2001 at 18:45:15 (GMT) From: Pat Conlon Email: None To: wolfi Subject: Hi. wolfi - you post was so powerful Message:

It is EXACTLY the same reasons that I left Rawat. It is a cold organization as well as secretive and deceitful. Thank you so much. I feel so lucky to know that there are still people like you in this world. It brought tears to my eyes to know what loving kind wonderful people the premies were and how bad things are now.

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Date: Fri, Mar 16, 2001 at 18:54:27 (GMT) From: Pat Conlon Email: None To: wolfi Subject: PS wolfi - guards with guns at Amaroo? Message:

That is disgusting.

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Date: Fri, Mar 16, 2001 at 13:46:15 (GMT) From: wolfi Email: None To: everyone Subject: Hi Message:

I read it again, sorry for all this mistakes, but my secratary is already in her weekend, she would have done it much better. woolfy (wolfi)

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Date: Fri, Mar 16, 2001 at 19:00:45 (GMT) From: Way Email: None To: wolfi Subject: To Woolfy/wolfi Message:

Don't let your secretary correct your posts. They are quite fun to read as is.

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Date: Fri, Mar 16, 2001 at 18:41:31 (GMT) From: Erika Email: None To: wolfi Subject: Hi Message:

Wolfi, Guten tag. Ich weiss, wie schwer es ist, im ein andere Sprache zu sprechen. Du kanst sehen, dass meine Deustch ist also sehr schlecht! Mit liebe, Erika

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Date: Fri, Mar 16, 2001 at 23:56:39 (GMT) From: Jim Email: None To: Erika Subject: ERIKA AND WOLFI ARE PREMIE PLANTS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Message:

That's not English, sister! What is this? You thought you could get away with this shit? Sending secret premie spy shit back and forth right under our noses? Quick, someone check 'wolfi' or whatever he calls himself. Yeah, wolfy in sheepy clothing is more like it. Hopefully, no one's issued him an Ex-Premie Smart Card yet. ..... oh no ...... PLEASE, someone tell me that this guy doesn't have an Ex-Premie Smart Card!

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Date: Sat, Mar 17, 2001 at 01:48:29 (GMT) From: Pat Conlon Email: None To: Jim Subject: Propagation of premie plants Message:

Do you propagate PREMIE PLANTS by seed or cuttings?

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Date: Sat, Mar 17, 2001 at 00:15:03 (GMT) From: scott Email: None To: Jim Subject: ERIKA AND WOLFI ARE PREMIE PLANTS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Message:

..It's commonly referred to as 'German'

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Date: Sat, Mar 17, 2001 at 00:31:14 (GMT) From: Jim Email: None To: scott Subject: German, my ass -- it's cult code, 'scott' Message:

I used to be a big Fassbinder fan, Scott, so don't go giving me this German shit. German, huh? If it's German, where are the subtitles, huh? German, yeah, right. Of course it is. What is that?

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Date: Fri, Mar 16, 2001 at 12:57:09 (GMT) From: Michael Dettmers Email: dettmers@gylanix.com To: Erika Subject: Hi Message:

Hi Erika, (love you too) Thanks for stepping up to the plate, putting your cards on the table as you said, and continuing your commitment to lead an examined life. In that spirit, I applaud your determination to grill your PAM friends. Let me press hard on you about something as well. You seem to accept my and other’s reports about M’s drinking and philandering, but you appear unconvinced about the x-rated scene. Donner, care to add your salt of the earth take to my cerebral report on this issue? Of course, I too don’t know of it is still in force today, but it sure was when I was around. Hell, for a moment there I thought you were bent on completely trashing my credibility. It was a relief to hear you say that I had, in fact, conveyed Maharaji’s message to you accurately, if somewhat glibly. For your sake, I’m glad you stuck to your guns and did what was right for you. In that and other respects, you have long ago garnered my love, respect and admiration. Michael

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Date: Fri, Mar 16, 2001 at 18:43:07 (GMT) From: Erika Email: None To: Michael Dettmers Subject: Hi Message:

MD, Rest assured, I'm looking hard at everything, x-rating included. Much love y abrazos, E

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Date: Fri, Mar 16, 2001 at 12:06:21 (GMT) From: AJW Email: None To: Erika Subject: Hi Message:

Hi Erika, Your story sounds very familiar. Lots of intelligent, warm, good people end up in cults, and fortunately most of us seemed to hang on to at least a handful of our common sense and humanity, even through the darkest times. However, the fact remains, you're a member of a cult. And if you've been around for a while, which it sounds like you have, you probably see Captain Rawat as some form of 'The Superior Power In Person', (remember the words from 'Twameva'? However, from Michael Dettmers' accounts, and from plenty of other evidence, it looks like he may not be the superior power in person after all- or at least, no more than the rest of us are. You say you don't have any fear. What do you think would happen to you if you stopped practising the techniques for six months or a year? What do you think would happen to you if you started to openly criticise Maharaji at premie gatherings? Or even is you suggested premies should spend time caring more for each other, rather than raising money for the next even bigger jet, or boat, or house, that he surely wants right now. When Maharaji said at Tuscon, 'If you leave me you will break into so many pieces you will never be able to be put back together,' what do you think he meant? And what do you think he meant when he said, 'If you don't practice knowledge, it will become like a pile of rotting vegetables inside you'? Looking forward to your response Erica. By the way, do you consider this post 'Flaming'? Anth the mouldy carrot.

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Date: Fri, Mar 16, 2001 at 18:59:24 (GMT) From: Erika Email: None To: AJW Subject: Hi Message:

anth, If you don't mind, I'm going to copy most of your post below, because there are lots of things to which I want to respond; Erika 'And if you've been around for a while, which it sounds like you have, you probably see Captain Rawat as some form of 'The Superior Power In Person', (remember the words from 'Twameva'? However, from Michael Dettmers' accounts, and from plenty of other evidence, it looks like he may not bethe superior power in person after all- or at least, no more than the rest of us are.' [ANTH - I definitely used to think he was the superior power in person, and (as I say in a response further up this thread), I stopped thinking that a long time ago, right around the time when M encouraged people to stop talking about him that way.] 'You say you don't have any fear.What do you think would happen to you if you stopped practising the techniques for six months or a year?' [ANTH - I know exactly what would happen, because I've done it. I'd get crankier and more prone to worry, less able to see the sheer fact of being alive as a marvelous gift. Ultimately I'd miss so much the lovely feeling of sitting down and feeling truly quiet and deeply content and -- some cases -- blown out, that I'd decide to start practicing again. At least that what happened when I did this about ten years ago.] 'What do you think would happen to you if you started to openly criticise Maharaji at premie gatherings?' [I suppose it depends on what forum it was. I imagine if I stood up at one of his events and starting heckled him, I'd be given the bum's rush. Just as I would any any similar public forum. If it was in a smaller meeting, I think it would depend on the religiosity and level of fear in the people present. I have brought up my issues about M in small, open-minded gatherings recently, and have gotten openness, disagreement and discomfort -- but nothing really negative.] 'Or even is you suggested premies should spend time caring more for each other, rather than raising money for the next even bigger jet, or boat, or house, that he surely wants right now.' [ANTH -- I often suggest that premies be kinder and more respectful to each other, listen more to each other, respect each other's point of view more, etc., and have gotten nothing but positive response.] When Maharaji said at Tuscon, 'If you leave me you will break into so many pieces you will never be able to be put back together,' what do you think he meant? [ANTH - don't have a clue; sounds pretty weird, and this is kind of thing I'm reflecting on.] 'And what do you think he meant when he said, 'If you don't practice knowledge, it will become like a pile of rotting vegetables inside you'?'' [ANTH - well, based on my own experience above, I'd say he might have meant you'll feel really uncomfortable, but again -- weird thing to say, I agree.] 'Looking forward to your response Erica. By the way, do you consider this post 'Flaming'?' [Nope. Erika] Anth the mouldy carrot.

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Date: Fri, Mar 16, 2001 at 20:58:22 (GMT) From: Joe Email: None To: Erika Subject: This sounds absurd. Message:

[ANTH - I definitely used to think he was the superior power in person, and (as I say in a response further up this thread), I stopped thinking that a long time ago, right around the time when M encouraged people to stop talking about him that way.] Erika, I just don't get it. How can you think of Maharaji as the Superior Power in Person, which you did because he said he was, and in fact, WROTE those words in the introduction of a ARTI (not to mention sitting in front of us countless times while we sang it to him, lifting not one finger to correct anything) , and then, on a dime, Maharaji just STOPS being the Superior Power in Person, because he tells you to stop callin him hat, and you just have no problem with that? Did Maharaji say he was lying, or that it was a mistake, or that he didn't say that? Either he is, and always was, or he never was. What is it, and why doesn't that matter to you? How can Maharaji be the incarnation of God before 1985 and then just stop being the incarnation of God after 1985? Isn't this just a bit too 1984?

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Date: Fri, Mar 16, 2001 at 21:22:35 (GMT) From: Erika Email: None To: Joe Subject: This sounds absurd. Message:

Joe, You misunderstood me. I didn't say I stopped believing it because he told me to. I said I stopped believing it, and at around the same time he asked people to stop saying/implying it. I think M's understanding of who and what he is has evolved tremendously over the years. My own personal take? I think believed his father to be the superior power in person, and that therefore he must be, too. I think it one point, pretty early on, he realized that wasn't true (except in the way that we're all the superior power in person). I see it as growth, you see it as cynical revisionism. I hope that M at some point publicly acknowledges his own evolution in understanding and apologizes for whatever confusion it has caused. Erika

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Date: Sat, Mar 17, 2001 at 00:40:49 (GMT) From: donner Email: None To: Erika Subject: This sounds absurd. Message:

don't hold your breath!

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Date: Fri, Mar 16, 2001 at 22:12:12 (GMT) From: Joe Email: None To: Erika Subject: You missed the point entirely Message:

Erika, Maybe the timing is different, but it's irrelevent. It doesn't really matter whether you stopped believeing Maharaji was God because he said so, or for any other reason. The point you fail to deal with is that Maharaji, himself, promoted himself as God for over a decade in the West, and then, to one degree or another, it's hard to tell, kind of makes it all vague and allows people to CONTINUE to believe that, and maybe some like you stop believing that. And he takes no responsbility whatsoever, which I would think you would expect from any other human being who did something like that, (other than someone you were told NEVER to doubt), and you call it 'growth.' You actually make a virtue out of it. That's absurd. I guess the 'growth' hasn't gone too far yet. I didn't say anything about 'cynical revisionsism.' Whether it's 'cynical' or not, I don't know. I think there are probably lots of premies who sincerely believe in Maharaji's sincerity, such as it is, and I know premies who really do still think he's divine. But it's revisionism nonetheless. And there are things beyond revisionism: lies. Have you looked at the Elan Vital website, in which there is a clip of Maharaji, himself, lying about this? It's atrocious and extremely insulting to those of us who were around then. Maharaji says he never claimed to be God. That's a lie, and you know it. It also claims the ashrams were shelters from drugs, which is also a lie, but that's another lie. And then there are the lies on Maharaji's own website, in which he claims that he 'always said' you could leave knowledge anytime (if you want to go to hell, I guess), that he was never a 'leader' and that he was never a 'firgurehead.' It's so deceptive. It's lies. And like Pat says, why is he still having people kiss his feet, as late as 1997 in Australia, and why does he produce 'videos' with him walking around in slow motion to new-age music, if he STILL isn't portraying himself as divine, or at least worthy of worship, let alone not making it crystal clear that's he's 'just a human being' like he meekly say. Joe

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Date: Sat, Mar 17, 2001 at 01:52:55 (GMT) From: Pat Conlon Email: None To: Joe Subject: Blame it all on the mahatmas Message:

Those horrible little Hindus were the ones who introduced all that nasty Krishna nonsense and guru is greater than god garbage. Mr Rawat does. He blamed them in Atlanta in Dec 2000.

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Date: Fri, Mar 16, 2001 at 21:28:54 (GMT) From: Pat Conlon Email: None To: Erika Subject: Me too, Erika Message:

You said: ''I hope that M at some point publicly acknowledges his own evolution in understanding and apologizes for whatever confusion it has caused.'' Me too. But he still currently refers to Krishna as having to come again and again and to think of him at death. Maybe he no longer thinks of himself as Krishna but what do you think he is thinking when he says things like that? And what do you think the Indian premies (who are the vast majority) think when he says that? he can't have his cake and eat it.

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Date: Fri, Mar 16, 2001 at 10:44:00 (GMT) From: Pat Conlon Email: None To: Erika Subject: Hi, Erika Message:

You said: ''The thing I want to take issue with though, is the idea that following M has always been about fear and abuse – for everyone. Please understand, those of you who say you followed him out of fear, or felt abused by him and others – I’m certain that’s true for you. I just resist the blanket generalization that it was/is true for everyone.'' I agree with you because I was never close enough to Maharaji to be abused by him or to be as intimate as you were with him. He was always only either a dot on a far off stage or a picture on a screen. Some of the people here were and I have learned to listen to them even if it was not my experience. My main concerns are not necessarily with the allegations of hedonism but principaly with the Jagdeo issue. It was the first allegation raised here that was corroborated by a victim. Maybe some of the stuff here is hearsay but I believe Susan completely and cannot turn a blind eye to that. And that has made me take the other allegations of impropriety seriously enough to have lost a considerable amount of trust and respect for Mr Rawat. It is no longer possible to admire him whole-heartedly and neither is it necessary. I have become embarassed to point to him as my teacher and have realized that I do not have to defend him any longer. And a teacher is not necessary. Why should the most essential thing to us be available only by an outside agent? Everything that we need is within us including a conscience which is still the best teacher you can find. We don't need to be defending someone who basically only utters platitudes about the preciousness of our breath. We all know it is a miracle already. How much reminding do you need? I have no intention of trying to woo you away. I don't have the right to do that. I'm simply pointing out that, if someone is no longer comfortable with defending and financially supporting Mr Rawat any more, then there is no need to continue to do so.

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Date: Fri, Mar 16, 2001 at 21:33:11 (GMT) From: Erika Email: None To: Pat Conlon Subject: Hi, Erika Message:

Pat, Thanks for your post. the Jagdeo issue is a big deal for me, too, and I'm looking into that very deeply and trying to do what I can. Interestingly, I agree with you that a teacher is not necessary. However, I enjoy having a teacher -- I choose it. As I said in my initial post, I find M's talks inspiring and focusing and that my interactions with him feel helpful and supportive. Erika

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Date: Fri, Mar 16, 2001 at 23:39:42 (GMT) From: yRrEg Email: None To: Erika Subject: I'm about to hurl... Message:

Oh sweety, youse one smooth operator, yes, in-diddley-deed! Thanks for your post. the Jagdeo issue is a big deal for me, too, and I'm looking into that very deeply and trying to do what I can. Oh I'm sure you are. You might even read the stuff on this site! And struggling to get to the bottom of it, right? Just what steps, exactly, have you taken to do this? Interestingly, I agree with you that a teacher is not necessary. However, I enjoy having a teacher -- I choose it. This is such nonesense. You lost your free will about this thing years ago. Admit it, in this aspect of your life, you're brainwashed. You're in a cult. What do you tell your non-premie associates about the little freak you call your 'master?' As I said in my initial post, I find M's talks inspiring and focusing and that my interactions with him feel helpful and supportive. Yes, but you can get those kind of warm and fuzzies in many, many places. Just look at the rotten bastard you're supporting! How can you do this with a clear conscience? Just because 'your interactions' were 'warm' what about the way he treated others? Don't their 'feelings' count as much as yours? You really sorta disgust me, what with all your assets and having such a leg up on most people you have to spew this apologetic crap to defend this creep.

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Date: Sat, Mar 17, 2001 at 03:04:50 (GMT) From: Pat Conlon Email: None To: yRrEg Subject: Gerry, hope you don't talk to your wife like that Message:

I know you're allergic to niceness but are you also allergic to reasonableness?

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Date: Sat, Mar 17, 2001 at 15:37:22 (GMT) From: gerry Email: None To: Pat Conlon Subject: Fuck Patrick this Erica oozes sleaze and deception Message:

Reasonableness, my ass. Oh here. You can ask Patty all about me and how I treat her and how our marriage is: pflyng@techline.com

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Date: Sat, Mar 17, 2001 at 18:28:03 (GMT) From: Pat Conlon Email: None To: gerry Subject: Gerry, I don't think Erika Message:

''Erica oozes sleaze and deception.'' She is just being a bit circumspect but I for one feel that she is totally sincere. Even if she were not sincere (which I do not for one minute believe) I still feel that she is being courteous and reasonable and I will continue to treat her in the same way. I just hoped that you would also give her the benefit of the doubt. But it is none of my business what you think or how you act. I also know that you are sincere and we may just have to agree to disagree on this one like true open minded libertarians.

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Date: Sat, Mar 17, 2001 at 18:50:52 (GMT) From: gerry Email: None To: Pat Conlon Subject: Time will tell, I guess Message:

I can't help but thinking there is something dark, dank and vile lurking in the hearts of these true believers. They scare me. Especially the polite, well spoken ones. It's the mask of sanity blowing off and revealing the many headed hydra with snakes in her hair that's the stuff of my personal forum nightmares. I have given her the benefit of the doubt. She's not here looking for answers. She's here to present herself as an example of a reasonable, successful and happy 'student' of a highly admired and worldy successful 'Teacher.' No, go ahead, email Patty. She needs to get out more...

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Date: Sat, Mar 17, 2001 at 15:55:50 (GMT) From: Marianne Email: None To: gerry Subject: I'm with you and Joe on this one, gErRy Message:

Yeah, it's a lot of pap as far as I'm concerned, Gerry. I think Joe's posts have been right on the mark. Sorry Erika, but your posts sound too revisionist for me. When M. Dettmers showed up here the first few times, he was defending Captain Rawat in much the same way, and I questioned his sincerity. You can see where he ended up. You're not going to accomplish anything on your end about Jagdeo. Captain Rawat already washed his hands of this problem when he had EV send that disgusting letter to Susan. You really are deluded if you think you can get him to change his mind. You need a dose of reality and the cult will not provide it. Keep reading. Marianne

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Date: Sat, Mar 17, 2001 at 17:42:44 (GMT) From: gerry Email: None To: Marianne Subject: too polite to cough... Message:

I once went to a Protestant wedding where I sat in the back, of course. I couldn't quite make out what was being said at the altar but it sounded like 'Too polite to cough' and I thought 'wow, these people must be puritans or mennonites or something.' That's how the forum is these days--too polite to cough. I'm a bit taken back at the gushy embrace of Erika, the golden girl. Christ, no wonder she had the Filament lighting up (and probably wetting his panties) there she was: young, tall, gorgeous, singing like an angel and at his service. No wonder he was nice. Like somebody else said, goober wanted her to teach his kids--he could use her--and she'd look good having around. A babe to teach the kiddies their arias. Meanwhile the slaves, looking not so pretty are inhaling toxic fumes at Decca, working 18 hours a day like Cynthia until they're about half dead, or in the ashram wearing holey underwear, with nothing to look forward to except a whole life (they thought) of the same ole drab existence. Such joy, such peace to be a slave for the Lard. No, this revisionist crap galls me more than anything else. And here we have Miss Prissy Pants, all shiny and successful struttin' her stuff at the Ex-Prem forum. My, how reasonable she is, how well she handles herself, and oh! she's so pretty and her kids just love her and they're so pretty too. What can we winers, loosers and failures possibly have to complain about? . . . . PS They were really saying 'Do you pledge your troth?'

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Date: Sat, Mar 17, 2001 at 10:38:39 (GMT) From: Brian Smith Email: None To: Pat Conlon Subject: With all due respect Message:

Sonetimes getting to the the truth is not always nice and reasonable, When I came in here a few months back Gerry shook me out of my tree by not being all warm and fuzzy and he gave me a dose of reality that did not go down nicely at all. It turned out to be very important to me in my recovery and actually hastened the process. I have on more than one occasion thanked Gerry for it

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Date: Fri, Mar 16, 2001 at 21:37:40 (GMT) From: Pat Conlon Email: None To: Erika Subject: Hi, Erika Message:

I really understand Erika. I'm not knocking you. I think you're wonderful for posting here. I still have many many wonderful premie friends and I'm a live and let live kind of guy. I spent the last year criticizing the PWKs with whom I sat on the local team but eventually I had to admit that everything that I saw wrong started at the top with the kind of insouciance that I cannot stomach. Needless to say I had to apologize to the PWKs and I still love them.

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Date: Fri, Mar 16, 2001 at 10:40:09 (GMT) From: Sir Dave Email: sirdavid12@hotmail.com To: Erika Subject: Hi Message:

Your post has prompted me to yet again write to this forum. I will tell my corresponding story. I will post it later over the weekend, when I have finished it.

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Date: Fri, Mar 16, 2001 at 09:06:00 (GMT) From: E.Windsor Email: None To: Erika Subject: hellow Sezyou daaarling, love to kids xxxx Message:

nt....(?)

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Date: Fri, Mar 16, 2001 at 21:51:39 (GMT) From: Erika Email: None To: E.Windsor Subject: hellow Sezyou daaarling, love to kids xxxx Message:

E. Windsor, BUSTED! I was wondering whether anyone would pick up on that (grin). Yes, Sezyou is my snotty, anonymous evil twin. I wrote that post simply becasue I had gotten so tired of lots of the folks on the EPO portaying current premies as poverty-stricken, robotic losers with no life outside 'the cult.' But then I realized, partly through some of the very sincere posts I got in return, and partly through Donner's questioning of the anonymity stuff, that I was being a chicken-shit, and that writing bratty posts under a fake name was not going to help create any kind of a useful dialogue. warmly, Erika

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Date: Fri, Mar 16, 2001 at 07:54:07 (GMT) From: Jim Email: None To: Erika Subject: The charmed premie life Message:

Erika, Sounds like you were a bit of a pet, in a way. You know? Maharaji must really like some people. Maybe you were one of them. Sounds like it to me anyway. Well, if that's the case, good for you. You were kinda, a little, sure more than a whole lof of others anyway, a Friend of the Guru (FOG). And there, in the centre of the cyclone, the guru smiled at you. And that was it. You got it, a lot of people wanted it but you got it, and that was that. Lucky you. What would be more interesting than hearing you comment on just your select encounters with Maharaji, sweet as they are, would be to hear you honestly try to make sense of them in the context of all the other stuff you know as well as you the rest of us. Yes, Erika, it's time, as Paul Harvey would say, for the -- REST -- of the story. Think about it. Your whole story about Maharaji treating you softly, gently like that would mean little if it weren't against a widespread backdrop of personal and general intimidation. So fine, the guru could blow hot and cold. Maybe a little hotter with some, maybe even a little more conssitently with some. Maybe he just made it a bit of a fetish to see how easy-going and downright 'caj' (as in 'casual') he could play the part. But everyone knew that flame could flicker in an instant. So what about all that stuff? You know, the whole picture?

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Date: Fri, Mar 16, 2001 at 21:40:19 (GMT) From: Erika Email: None To: Jim Subject: The charmed premie life Message:

Jim, Well, it would be silly of me to pretend to be able to comment realisitically on anything but my own perceptions. I can say that the times M has gotten iritiated or angry at me, it didn't feel intimidating or bullying...it felt appropriate and justified. Once was when I had - pure and simple - spaced out something I had committed to do. Another time it was when I was acting like an arrogant jerk and he called me on it. Yet another time was when I had said something that I knew the moment it came out of my mouth was ridiculous. For me, part of having a teacher -- a teacher of anything -- is being willing to have him or her call you on your bullshit. Erika

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Date: Sat, Mar 17, 2001 at 00:24:32 (GMT) From: yErRg Email: None To: Erika Subject: yOUR hEAD'S sCREWED uP, gIRLY Message:

I can say that the times M has gotten iritiated or angry at me, it didn't feel intimidating or bullying...it felt appropriate and justified. Once was when I had - pure and simple - spaced out something I had committed to do. Another time it was when I was acting like an arrogant jerk and he called me on it. Yet another time was when I had said something that I knew the moment it came out of my mouth was ridiculous. No officer, no one gave me that black eye. I walked into a doorknob. What? Well of course I don't want to press charges, he's my husband!

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Date: Sat, Mar 17, 2001 at 00:23:51 (GMT) From: Connie Email: None To: Erika Subject: Erika....... Message:

Sorry about spelling your name wrong in the thread further up. One thing you said.... 'I can say that the times M has gotten iritiated or angry at me, it didn't feel intimidating or bullying...it felt appropriate and justified. Once was when I had - pure and simple - spaced out something I had committed to do. Another time it was when I was acting like an arrogant jerk and he called me on it. Yet another time was when I had said something that I knew the moment it came out of my mouth was ridiculous. For me, part of having a teacher -- a teacher of anything -- is being willing to have him or her call you on your bullshit.' I have had these experiences as well, and have thought about it a lot. I am beginning to see that it had more to do with me than him. I wanted to learn and grow, I was open to seeing things about myself. When I was confronted, I tried to use it as a catalyst to change. Each time I did this, I thanked m, not myself, and was determined to try even more, and rid myself of anything that came between him and me and that learning (surrendering) process. Plus I was conditioned to want to be 'humbled', and as much as I could prayed to learn and grow. Everytime these situations occurred, I thought he knew what it was in me that needed to be shown up, good and bad. I had an interaction with him not long ago, that for me, was very 'profound and magical'. For some reason, after, I wondered if he was even aware of what heights I had soared to within me, and of the connection I felt with him. I always assumed he did, but this time, I thought maybe he's thinking about some new fancy car or his lunch, wondering why this person was drawing his attention, while I was experiencing 'infinity' with a 'heart bursting with gratitude'. I had never thought like that before. You also said that people are changing and more open. I have heard many others say that as well. One of the reasons I looked here was because I was very unsettled by the behaviour of many involved. The confidentiality that is required today to be involved seems just plain strange to me. I have my views on why this is asked for. I did not join the secret service. People are taking this direction very, very seriously to the point of ridiculousness. I wondered how the almost non-existent propagation could happen when no one was able to say anything at all. Not to mention the incredible elitism this can engender. I can only shake my head, and hope people survive. I took exception to being asked not to 'complain' (which basically meant any utterance not in sync with the party line) or talk about people behind their backs, whilst knowing that he and others around him were doing this continually, but pretending to the wider population they weren't. I think people deserve respect and care, especially concerning their sincerity. I hated the cultish/religious behaviour I had seen for decades, I thought I was distanced from it, though not unaffected. K and M were not cultish, I was not cultish, it was all the other people, with the exception of me and a few of my friends! But something in this regard also changed, I started thinking about what a cult was, and wondered why m didn't do anything about it, as it is his organization, and people are only doing things 'in his name'. I have liked reading all your responses Take care C

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Date: Fri, Mar 16, 2001 at 16:24:15 (GMT) From: Richard Email: None To: Erika Subject: Thank you for your story Message:

Your story sounds wonderful and I'm sure will fill many premie fencesitters here with renewed confidence in M. So be it. Each person has to choose their own way. As Connie said, if they are lurking here they have a reason. I lurked for years and slowly (Southern boy) had all my lingering M-based cosmology realigned. By the way, I want to nominate you for the all time most lucid and honest PWK to ever post here. What a lyrical change. You are SezYou, aren't you? So, continue your quest and best of luck. If you are going to Portland, you'll have a lot of 'food for your mind' to consider. Richard

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Date: Fri, Mar 16, 2001 at 21:43:09 (GMT) From: Erika Email: None To: Richard Subject: Thank you for your story Message:

Richard, Thanks. Yes, I am Sezyou, as you can read in my response to E. Windsor above. Decided to stop being snotty and be brave instead (grin). Not going to Portland...it's my daughter's 17th borthday. warmly, Erika

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Date: Fri, Mar 16, 2001 at 22:06:46 (GMT) From: Pat Conlon Email: pdconlon@yahoo.com To: Erika Subject: Erika, you're definitely not snotty Message:

There are a bunch of new exes here. we all left for various reasons. I hope you will see that I am not one of the more argumentative ones here. My reasons for leaving are pretty subtle and I have not yet explained them on FV. Those of us who stuck it out for nearly 30 years have seen what you call M's ''evolution'' and which the exes call ''revisionism.'' So I can really relate to your take on it all. My biggest reason for leaving was that I feel K is a beautiful tool and could benefit many but I cannot stand the way it is being ''propagated'' currently. If ever you want to discuss more subtle things than can often be tolerated on the forum please feel free to email me. You can see my pic in a thread above and hopefully a pic is worth a thousand words.

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Date: Sat, Mar 17, 2001 at 19:43:21 (GMT) From: Joe Email: None To: Pat Conlon Subject: And what do you call it Pat? Message:

Those of us who stuck it out for nearly 30 years have seen what you call M's ''evolution'' and which the exes call ''revisionism.'' And just what do you call it Pat? Do you call it 'evolution?' On what possible basis, and how does this correspond with your statements that you think Maharaji is the scum of the earth (or something equally negative)?

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Date: Fri, Mar 16, 2001 at 22:22:26 (GMT) From: Erika Email: None To: Pat Conlon Subject: Erika, you're definitely not snotty Message:

Pat, Thanks -- I appreciate the offer. Love, Erika

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Date: Sat, Mar 17, 2001 at 03:17:24 (GMT) From: Babs Email: ralphie@ralphiescafe.com To: Erika Subject: What a woman! Message:

Dear Erika, I remember your Oratorio and I remember you from COLL as a beautiful, talented, and intelligent woman. I wish I hadn't been such a shy little mouse back then; I would have sat at your table more often. My loss... It seems incredible to me that you have stuck with Maharaji all these years without becoming damaged goods, but your voice is so calm and self-assured that all I can do is applaud. Congratulations on maintaining your identity. You go, girl! Love, Babs

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Date: Sat, Mar 17, 2001 at 03:30:35 (GMT) From: Erika Email: None To: Babs Subject: What a woman! Message:

Babs, Wow. Thank you. Erika

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Date: Fri, Mar 16, 2001 at 22:53:38 (GMT) From: Ulf Email: None To: Erika Subject: Erika, you're definitely not snotty Message:

Erika This is the first time in a long time we have a ``premie`` here , hwo is making a bit sense. the people i know who still is around M, are refusing to even think that he have made any mistakes at all, please keep your posting up because it makes me belive that i was not completly among blind people, for all these years.... regards Ulf

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Date: Sat, Mar 17, 2001 at 18:35:30 (GMT) From: donner Email: None To: Ulf Subject: Erika, Message:

hi again, i have been following with interest this whole thread unfold...just one thing...somewhere you indicated that you thought m might/probably is reading this site....no way and no way there is even anyone speaking to him about this site...or that dettmers, myself or anyone else is writing...no way that kind of conversation just doesn't happen. Unless of course things have changed completely and i really doubt it. i will be interested in knowing if m 1. gets your letter 2. responds please keep us posted thanks

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Date: Fri, Mar 16, 2001 at 05:46:14 (GMT) From: Forum Administrator Email: None To: Everyone Subject: Where have all the premies gone.... Message:

...gone to EPO, every one! Yesterday (March 15th) was our busiest day ever. Here are the stats: Busiest Day: Thurs, Mar 15, 2001 Messages Read: 11,779 Drip, drip drip:)

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Date: Fri, Mar 16, 2001 at 10:07:15 (GMT) From: sumo boy Email: None To: Forum Administrator Subject: Where have all the premies gone.... Message:

they're all intergalactic spies.....!!!

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Date: Fri, Mar 16, 2001 at 15:55:21 (GMT) From: Susan Email: None To: sumo boy Subject: its the Venusians! (nt) Message:

and Bhole Ji?

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Date: Fri, Mar 16, 2001 at 09:49:37 (GMT) From: Brian Smith Email: bgsmith@teleport.com To: Forum Administrator Subject: I'll bet they don't top those numbers in Portland Message:

this week-end at the big event. Even though those figures don't reflect total number of daily hits this total of posts read approaching 12,000 is mighty impressive. This data might just be a sign of things to come. There remains a lot of soon to be next Exe's out there if they only knew about the Forum V. I say, Spread the word about this website, if you haven't done so already, talk to all of your old premie friends whom you might consider receptive. The Forum today is really happenning and alive with lots of new people and energy and is poised to speak to the truth of the matter (cult experience) in the most credible and undeniable terms ever. The information and honesty here has become so powerful in the last few weeks I could not think of a better time to introduce as many newbies as possible. I hope the system and server can hold up to the task, Because I really think this thing is really going to bust loose this year. FA, what is needed, how can I help? email me if necessary

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Date: Fri, Mar 16, 2001 at 16:28:53 (GMT) From: Richard Email: post@rmi.net To: Brian Smith Subject: FA and J-M - I'm happy to help also Message:

FA or Jean-Michel, if you need any help let me know. One thing I had thought of is to help compiling the stories by theme. I'm also webby. Richard

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Date: Fri, Mar 16, 2001 at 06:07:09 (GMT) From: Richard Email: None To: Forum Administrator Subject: Ides of March = 11,779 Messages Read ! Message:

Thanks FA

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Date: Fri, Mar 16, 2001 at 06:28:34 (GMT) From: Pat Conlon Email: None To: Richard Subject: Ides of March = Et tu, EPO? Message:

Thanks FA

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Date: Fri, Mar 16, 2001 at 09:02:37 (GMT) From: Tony Walker Email: None To: Pat Conlon Subject: Ides of March = Et tu BrutusEPO nt Message:

nt

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Date: Fri, Mar 16, 2001 at 04:14:20 (GMT) From: Jitendra Darling Email: None To: Everyone Subject: So this is where my wife goes when... Message:

she says she's going to work on her book! Hi everybody, I'm Jitendra Darling, Katie Darling's husband. I've never been a 'premie,' but I did live in Muktananda's ashram till he died. In fact, Katie and I only met 5 years ago, but we figured out that we had a near-miss in Miami Beach, when we were a few buildings apart, in different ashrams on Collins Ave. in the late 70's. Katie H: i am astonished at how self-similar this Katie soul-strand of recovering apocalyptics seems to be! To y'all: I really appreciate the 'service' that the ex-premies are doing in sharing histories. I know Katie has felt isolated and occasionally feels that there is no one that could understand this particular aspect of her strange epic. My life has been a strange epic too. I'm appalled at the extent and depth of abuse that so many of you went through. I'm aware of many of the grisly details surrounding Siddha Yoga, though I personally emerged better off after 4 years or so, in some ways, than when I went in. Although as I'm saying this, I realized I gained a lot, and at the same time the more subtle effects of disempowerment and giving away of my own inner authority - even though the credo was that God was in me AS me - have really only dawned on me in the past couple of years. As a leader of groups myself, I'm becoming increasingly aware of how easily I could usurp and seduce people's power by allowing and making myself available to a certain kind of projection and even adoration. It's because of having been on the other side of this insidious seduction that I challenge myself to constantly be awake to this dynamic, and hold the agreement with myself to not let this happen. I realize now there was no such agreement with my former guru, nor with the one presently installed in Siddha Yoga. Although the message was 'God dwells within me as me,' the unhealthy adoration factor - in other words, projecting my own goodness outside myself and thereby keeping it out of my reach, and the either conscious or unconscious willingness of the guru to receive that adoration - was confusing. Although Muktananda was always saying 'It's not about me, God is within you (which I know your ex-guru didn't even say!), there still seemed to be an invitation from some part of him which willingly harvested all this adoring attention to float on and stay just out of reach. It created a bit of a split for me. Anyway, just wanted to say hi, and send my love and adoration to you all. Jitendra Darling P.S. from Katie: I reposted this from within a thread below, because he kept asking me all through dinner to go check if anyone had answered his post yet. Now he understands F5aholism. Once you post, you're hooked!

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Date: Fri, Mar 16, 2001 at 19:31:38 (GMT) From: Way Email: None To: Jitendra Darling Subject: A few questions Message:

(1)Are you related to the Darling family on the Andy Griffith Show? (2)Have you and Katie compared meditation techniques? I have heard that Muktananda's techniques are the same as Maharaji's? Is that true? (3)Did you have an experience of Shaktipat? (4)Were you still a loyal devotee when your guru died? What was the scene like then? Did you ever follow Gurumayi and/or her brother? Thanks for posting.

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Date: Fri, Mar 16, 2001 at 04:16:57 (GMT) From: Katie H. Email: None To: Jitendra Darling Subject: I just answered below! Message:

(Sorry, I was delayed because of having to watch a documentary about Tammy Wynette - snicker!) Greetings, Jitendra!

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Date: Fri, Mar 16, 2001 at 05:53:22 (GMT) From: Richard Email: None To: Jitendra Subject: Muktananda - Miami Beach Message:

When I lived in Miami, I worked at Aberbach's Camera Store on 41st Street (Arthur Godfrey) on Miami Beach. My job was to do framing and I got many Maharaji photos and also many of Muktananda. His devotees brought gorgeous photos that were actually die transfer prints - a technically advanced method for great color rendition. The other workers in the store thought there was only one guru and were confused by having some photos look old and thin with others some young and chubby. One man thought M was Samoan. The Muki photos were often of his feet or hands which really freaked them. Any way, it was fun being there. The Krishnas also had a temple on Collins. Welcome

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Date: Fri, Mar 16, 2001 at 03:41:33 (GMT) From: la-ex Email: None To: Everyone Subject: Mike Donner-can I ask you a few?'s... Message:

Mike- I know you prefer talking to 'real name' posters, but I do have a few specific questions for you. Is it OK with you if I post them for you to answer? If so, I will collect my thoughts and post the questions on Friday. Thanks, La-ex

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Date: Fri, Mar 16, 2001 at 16:38:44 (GMT) From: donner Email: None To: la-ex Subject: Mike Donner-can I ask you a few?'s... Message:

Sure go ahead i will check back Friday afternoon.

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Date: Fri, Mar 16, 2001 at 12:56:30 (GMT) From: AJW Email: None To: Mike Donner Subject: Me too Mike. Message:

Hi Mike, I've got a question or two too Mike. Somebody told me recently- I think you're aware of this stuff- that Jagdeo's paedophillia was discussed in some circles, by co-ordinators etc, at various conferences around the late 70s, into the 80s. I wondered if you were ever aware of any of these discussions- in your role as Mr Instructor, or what the outcome of them was. If you prefer to respond by email, I have no problem with that. Good to see you posting. Did it turn out how you expected? Take care, Anth the Private Squint

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Date: Sat, Mar 17, 2001 at 01:03:42 (GMT) From: donner Email: None To: AJW Subject: answer to anth Message:

strangely, i did not ever here about jagdeo and children. this is another example of the type of set up m created around him...dettmers can comment on this too (m's set up) as he was often frustrated by it as well. m put me 'in charge' of the instructors for quite a few years but most of the real problems never got to me...rather taken to others, most often the 'residence' premies as they were believed to have a more direct connection to m. which was mostly true. this was m's way of creating plausable deniability and continue to shirk his responsibilities. as i have read elsewhere in this and other forums, randy prouty and others at the residence where in this loop. i was always about half in a couple loops, half in the res loop and half in the instructor loop (also my own of course). often the instructors would not fully trust me because of my perceived access and the res folks did not trust me because i was not fully one of them. mostly i was glad of this but also often frustrated by it....and bored very bored by the disarray and drama and how little got done as a result of this kind of back play.

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Date: Fri, Mar 16, 2001 at 14:52:49 (GMT) From: Squint Email: the_avenger55@hotmail.com To: AJW Subject: Are We Related? Message:

Which meaning of squint are you referring to? Squint the Private Anth

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Date: Fri, Mar 16, 2001 at 16:37:21 (GMT) From: AJW Email: None To: Squint Subject: The one in my right eye Message:

private squint = private eye anth the obscure

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Date: Fri, Mar 16, 2001 at 03:40:42 (GMT) From: janet Email: None To: richard rogers Subject: did you scan in the back of the smartcard too? Message:

one must not overlook any significant detail, now.

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Date: Fri, Mar 16, 2001 at 03:49:20 (GMT) From: Richard Email: None To: janet Subject: Look at J-M's SmartCard n/t Message:

nt

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Date: Fri, Mar 16, 2001 at 01:14:06 (GMT) From: Sir Dave Email: worldwide_linkup@hotmail.com To: Everyone Subject: You too can be in a synchronised team Message:

Reading Darling Katie's posts about her helping people who left Maharaji has consolidated in my mind the bare bones of what I think could be a necessary thing. Please click on the following link: More important than synchronised ushering Often there have been people here (and I include myself) who have been in a very bad way. They could have benefitted tremendously if there were some people who had put themselves forward as helpers/counselers or whatever you might want to call them. What would be needed would be a few people who would be listed with email addresses as providing this service. Also, telephone contact could be arranged quickly. You'll notice on The Great Worldwide Linkup (now slimmed down again, you'll be relieved) that I've said that there is no distinction between current premies and ex-premies on the site. I think for the above service to work, there would also have to be that stipulation. It would be no good if it was just a bunch of ex-premies trying to convert premies to ex-ness. I have a broader agenda in mind. Sometimes help is needed which is not in the realm of an ex-premie/premie world. OK, so people might not be health professionals but really, it does help to talk things over with someone and clarify the trauma and thereby figure out the way to go forward. Better than just stewing in your own juice. And I've done plenty of that in my time. So perhaps I'm just trying to 'save the world'. I dunno. Correct me if I'm wrong but I think the above might be needed.

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Date: Fri, Mar 16, 2001 at 04:17:57 (GMT) From: Katie Darling Email: None To: Sir Dave Subject: You too can be in a synchronised team Message:

I think this is a great idea. I would be limitedly available, as long as there are lots of other names. I'm trying to think of people with counselling skills who might be willing to do a teeny bit of this. I'll get back to you after talking to a few people. love Katie Darling

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Date: Fri, Mar 16, 2001 at 11:02:30 (GMT) From: Sir Dave Email: None To: Katie Darling Subject: Synchronised care package Message:

Darling Katie, and you are a darling, I don't think we'd be inundated with people seeking help. Probably just one or two each month, going on current trends and traffic reports. The fact that the synchronised care package is there, is the main thing. Makes things a bit safer for all. Our very own Prince Charles said something very nice yesterday and increased my estimation of him a hundredfold. Talking about the foot & mouth crisis here which is hitting our farmers very badly he said that he didn't want to see a situation where people were committing suicide because of their ruin. As he said this, you could see that he genuinely cared. You could see it in his eyes. That is all that is needed. And a bit of patience and understanding. I don't think we need professionals although of course, people can be pointed in that direction if necessary.

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Date: Fri, Mar 16, 2001 at 04:31:32 (GMT) From: Katie Darling Email: darlingwave@aol.com To: Sir Dave Subject: P.S. Message:

Maybe we should have a sub-section for exes with physical ailments like you know who and you know who and you know who? Well, perhaps not.

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Date: Fri, Mar 16, 2001 at 00:46:23 (GMT) From: janet of venice Email: None To: Everyone Subject: picture of me, if you knew me [you do now!] Message:

anybody wanna whip me up a smartcard so i can see how i woulda looked? [i still have the passport photos they took, that were going to go on it. maybe i can scan those in, so it will look even more real] this is me http://community-2.webtv.net/Jai_Choix/B4Iquit4sure/

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Date: Fri, Mar 16, 2001 at 10:48:28 (GMT) From: Pat Conlon Email: None To: janet of venice Subject: You look just like I thought you would only.... Message:

I was expecting long hair and more ear-rings, bangles and cats.

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Date: Fri, Mar 16, 2001 at 02:39:49 (GMT) From: GetSmart Email: None To: janet , David Subject: Sumo Boy, Sir Dave - pick up your cards Message:

Sorry, you have to share space. Cut backs, you understand. Sumo + Cheddar

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Date: Fri, Mar 16, 2001 at 03:47:04 (GMT) From: GetSmart Email: None To: GetSmart Subject: janet - try again Message:

Sorry, we had a computer crash at GetSmart and our files got jumbled. Raja Ji's card got mixed up with Norwood Winters'. Such lila. Here's yours again. janet of venice + Sir David of Cheddar Card size is 2-1/8' wide x 3-3/8' tall. In synchronized smartness

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Date: Fri, Mar 16, 2001 at 04:18:08 (GMT) From: Katie H Email: mishkat@tigerriver.com To: GetSmart Subject: Send me an e-mail and I'll send you my pic Message:

Do you want before or after? (Bobby has both, actually!)

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Date: Fri, Mar 16, 2001 at 03:33:32 (GMT) From: janet Email: None To: GetSmart Subject: i'm not Sumo Boy!!! but the card tickles me Message:

and there was no 10 month wait either. now hard was that? one question--what is the actual size of the real smart cards? and can we have a replica of the back of the card, as well, to complete the ensemble? i believe richard rogers scanned his??

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Date: Fri, Mar 16, 2001 at 11:31:10 (GMT) From: Katie Darling Email: None To: janet Subject: I recognize you, Janet Message:

Just the face - no idea where, when or why except that we were all in the same place at the same time, doing the same thing lots of times I guess.. And by the way, I'm still recovering from the brilliance of your sports analogy, below! I copied it. love

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Date: Fri, Mar 16, 2001 at 02:25:32 (GMT) From: bobby Email: bobby2@mindspring.com To: janet of venice Subject: thanks for the pix! Message:

thanks for the pix folks! we've got enough to go on. I'll get started this weekend....

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Date: Fri, Mar 16, 2001 at 01:15:54 (GMT) From: Bobby Email: None To: janet of venice Subject: picture of me, if you knew me [you do now!] Message:

Thank you so much for your lovely picture janet. To me our pictures reveal the exquisitely beautiful and unique qualities of who each of us is. Kind of like the subtle perceptions portrayed in the 'American Beauty' movie - just-as-it-is, empty, calm, vast..... you get the picture........ I'd still like to do a little webpage with today and yesterday pix of us old ex's -- anyone who is willing. So far I've got Pat Conlon, myself and possibly you and Richard. Are you into it? Any other takers?

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Date: Sat, Mar 17, 2001 at 02:10:27 (GMT) From: Richard Email: post@rmi.net To: Bobby Subject: Bobby - email me re: then/now pix Message:

I don't want to duplicate efforts and don't want to lose these photos either. Very funny to see the old ones and powerful to see the current beautiful faces. Richard

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Date: Fri, Mar 16, 2001 at 05:33:51 (GMT) From: Francesca Email: None To: Bobby Subject: You missed mine, in thread below Message:

You musta missed mine. Here it is again: Get smart Also Jean-Michel's is in thread below. He started this thing.

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Date: Fri, Mar 16, 2001 at 05:26:03 (GMT) From: pixels Email: None To: Bobby Subject: whats your address?..nt Message:

xcbn

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Date: Fri, Mar 16, 2001 at 03:22:15 (GMT) From: Katie Darling Email: None To: Bobby Subject: picture of me, if you knew me [you do now!] Message:

YOu can use mine - Mr Getsmart posted it in the thread below about saving the world.

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Date: Fri, Mar 16, 2001 at 02:15:26 (GMT) From: janet Email: None To: Bobby Subject: i give permission for mine...... Message:

actually you're about an hour ahead of me in your thinking. while i was getting this slapped up on the web I was thinking about something similar. I'll let you do it since you publicly asked. I like the idea of a gallery. did anybody else notice? it seemed to me, during our premie years, that everyone whose name became known in any way, for what they did as service, took on a kind of ring of tremendous portentousness. It was like we were going to be the new scriptural saints or apostles whose names would be remembered and passed down into human history as being terribly important people. before Knowledge, people's names were just their names. You met someone and their name was no big deal, even if they got to be your best friend or your boss. If someone got famous, then their name took on a whole new world of power. But once a premie, if you got known, a tremendous significance was carried in your name, a kind of unquestioning honor, holy authority, awe, a scramble to please. Unless your own personality tended to erode that mystique. I think of people like Suzy Bai Whitten, Joan Apter, Rehka, on the female side, whose very being in your house meant that the frantic effort to conform to pleasing ratcheted up into a dizzying level. And of course, whatever honchos were in the vicinity had the same effect, whether it was Bob Mischler or Lou Schwartz or Michael Dettmers or Michael Donner, from IHQ, or Charles Cameron, or Rance Barela, Or Allan Thomas, on the artsy side, or anybody who was thought to have some kind of mystical slant on things, like Jacques Sandoz or Rennie Davis. Their names were'nt just said, they were intoned, uttered pregnant with meaning. I have never heard this peculiar weight placed on the names of just folks anywhere else. One of the kicks of coming out, here, is to equalize that again. Donner is just a guy. Dettmers is just a regular fellow. Mike Finch is not Saint Paul. Guy Rollins is the same as you and me. It's just us, friends. people who need reassurance and building up, get support. people who need knocking down and qwualizing, get confronted. If any of that heroic ring clings to any of our names, it might be for our standing up to this ridiculous tyrant and coming into our own again. I think we merit our own gallery. Sure.

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Date: Fri, Mar 16, 2001 at 02:21:32 (GMT) From: janet Email: None To: janet Subject: i have one from 77 but its not scanned in yet. Message:

if you want before and after shots.

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Date: Fri, Mar 16, 2001 at 01:29:08 (GMT) From: Sir Dave Email: None To: Bobby Subject: Before I change my mind and retire again Message:

You can have this, Bobby, The Truth about Sir Dave and the Hamsters Sorry but I've no pictures of me as a premie. I was just a speck of dust, you see.

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Date: Fri, Mar 16, 2001 at 05:23:16 (GMT) From: bill-- Email: None To: Sir Dave Subject: what a great photo Sir David..nt Message:

dfn

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Date: Fri, Mar 16, 2001 at 10:45:04 (GMT) From: Sir Dave Email: None To: bill-- Subject: Thanks but now we need one of you, Bill Message:

Don't be going all shy on us.

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Date: Fri, Mar 16, 2001 at 01:25:15 (GMT) From: Katie Email: None To: Bobby Subject: pictures Message:

Janet - great picture. Bobby, I have my passport pictures then (1973) and now - will send to you if you want. I think you already have seen my old one - pretty funny. Are you still at the same e-mail?

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