Forum V: Archive
Compiled: Sun, Mar 18, 2001 at 17:05:07 (GMT)
From: Mar 13, 2001 To: Mar 17, 2001 Page: 5 Of: 5


Joe -:- Verbal/Spiritual Abuse -:- Tues, Mar 13, 2001 at 21:29:28 (GMT)
__ Katie Darling -:- Verbal/Spiritual Abuse -:- Wed, Mar 14, 2001 at 05:40:25 (GMT)
__ D_Thomas -:- Devil's Advocate -:- Tues, Mar 13, 2001 at 22:40:20 (GMT)
__ __ Michael Dettmers -:- Devil's Advocate -:- Wed, Mar 14, 2001 at 02:10:18 (GMT)
__ __ __ D_Thomas -:- Devil's Advocate -:- Thurs, Mar 15, 2001 at 22:27:54 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Michael Dettmers -:- Devil's Advocate -:- Fri, Mar 16, 2001 at 01:17:05 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Jim -:- Devil's Advocate -:- Fri, Mar 16, 2001 at 00:25:43 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Connie -:- D Thomas.......Scandals?? -:- Fri, Mar 16, 2001 at 01:46:10 (GMT)
__ __ __ Liz -:- So, so Perfect -:- Wed, Mar 14, 2001 at 17:34:45 (GMT)
__ __ __ Pat Conlon -:- Michael Dettmers, but it's alla lila. -:- Wed, Mar 14, 2001 at 02:40:43 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Michael Dettmers -:- Yeah, right. -:- Wed, Mar 14, 2001 at 12:00:58 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Pat Conlon -:- Thanks for clarification, Michael NT -:- Wed, Mar 14, 2001 at 19:25:37 (GMT)
__ __ Postie -:- Devil's Advocate- here's where your argument fails -:- Tues, Mar 13, 2001 at 23:20:37 (GMT)
__ __ Pat Conlon -:- Devil's Advocate - let's say that Rawat is Master -:- Tues, Mar 13, 2001 at 23:13:37 (GMT)
__ __ Joe -:- No, don't agree -:- Tues, Mar 13, 2001 at 22:57:46 (GMT)
__ __ __ D_Thomas -:- No, don't agree -:- Wed, Mar 14, 2001 at 21:22:18 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Pat Conlon -:- David, the lilas were all caused by boozing -:- Wed, Mar 14, 2001 at 21:50:41 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ D_Thomas -:- That's a Pat answer, Pat -:- Thurs, Mar 15, 2001 at 22:29:57 (GMT)
__ __ __ Pat Conlon -:- No, don't agree - the whole idea of a ''Master'' -:- Tues, Mar 13, 2001 at 23:03:45 (GMT)
__ Pat Conlon -:- Rawat in bad mood because of hangover -:- Tues, Mar 13, 2001 at 22:04:37 (GMT)
__ __ Joe -:- Do you think it was due to alcohol abuse? -:- Tues, Mar 13, 2001 at 22:23:46 (GMT)
__ __ __ Pat Conlon -:- Do you think it was due to alcohol abuse? -:- Tues, Mar 13, 2001 at 22:59:34 (GMT)
__ G -:- It's still happening. -:- Tues, Mar 13, 2001 at 21:51:26 (GMT)
__ __ Mercedes -:- Tired of it -:- Wed, Mar 14, 2001 at 02:00:45 (GMT)
__ __ __ Katie Darling -:- Querida Mercedes -:- Wed, Mar 14, 2001 at 05:34:28 (GMT)
__ __ __ G -:- Sometimes anger is good. -:- Wed, Mar 14, 2001 at 02:27:25 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Mercedes -:- Sometimes anger is good. -:- Wed, Mar 14, 2001 at 02:37:39 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Pat Conlon -:- Also a mahatma fondled me -:- Wed, Mar 14, 2001 at 03:27:40 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Abi -:- Sometimes anger is good. -:- Wed, Mar 14, 2001 at 03:21:31 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Postie -:- In this case, naming names is justified -:- Wed, Mar 14, 2001 at 06:03:23 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Mercedes -:- In this case, naming names is justified -:- Wed, Mar 14, 2001 at 07:26:02 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Susan -:- In this case, naming names is justified -:- Thurs, Mar 15, 2001 at 21:46:40 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ abi -:- In this case, naming names is justified -:- Thurs, Mar 15, 2001 at 01:42:28 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Joe -:- You are not alone -:- Wed, Mar 14, 2001 at 16:55:55 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Joe -:- Sorry, typo, that should be 'It' might help others -:- Thurs, Mar 15, 2001 at 00:35:37 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Jean-Michel -:- Padarthanand is also 1 of the bastards!!! -:- Wed, Mar 14, 2001 at 09:42:40 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Pat Conlon -:- In this case, naming Pardathand is justified -:- Wed, Mar 14, 2001 at 07:58:42 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Brian Smith -:- In this case, naming Pardathand is justified -:- Thurs, Mar 15, 2001 at 00:21:40 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Postie -:- Thank you Mercedes -:- Wed, Mar 14, 2001 at 15:56:06 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ G -:- What bastards -:- Wed, Mar 14, 2001 at 02:57:03 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Pat Conlon -:- Sometimes anger is good, Mercedes -:- Wed, Mar 14, 2001 at 02:46:16 (GMT)

cq -:- Cheesecake (we're out of moonlight) and Roses ... -:- Tues, Mar 13, 2001 at 20:48:01 (GMT)
__ moldy warp -:- Cheesecake (we're out of moonlight) and Roses ... -:- Wed, Mar 14, 2001 at 00:47:34 (GMT)
__ __ Pat Conlon -:- Moldy, I would also like to forgive Mr Rawat but -:- Wed, Mar 14, 2001 at 01:28:41 (GMT)

Jerry -:- What's up, FA? -:- Tues, Mar 13, 2001 at 18:14:44 (GMT)
__ Dermot -:- What's up, FA? -:- Tues, Mar 13, 2001 at 21:30:44 (GMT)
__ __ Pat Conlon -:- What's up, FA? Editor or censor? -:- Tues, Mar 13, 2001 at 21:58:42 (GMT)
__ __ __ gerry -:- But that's the point, Pat -:- Wed, Mar 14, 2001 at 04:10:36 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Pat Conlon -:- But that's the point, Gerry -:- Wed, Mar 14, 2001 at 04:19:37 (GMT)
__ __ __ Bazza -:- Sound advice Pat, er Thelma -:- Tues, Mar 13, 2001 at 23:14:54 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ gerry -:- Yes, It's good advice -:- Wed, Mar 14, 2001 at 04:32:54 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ janet -:- 'told you'? i was offering, brainstorming.. -:- Wed, Mar 14, 2001 at 11:26:16 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ gerry -:- 'told you'? i was offering, brainstorming.. -:- Thurs, Mar 15, 2001 at 04:37:00 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Selene -:- btw Janet thank you (OT sort of) -:- Wed, Mar 14, 2001 at 21:38:09 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Bazza -:- Apology accepted:) -:- Wed, Mar 14, 2001 at 05:41:15 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Gerry -:- gErRy retires; EPO child ladies victorious !!! -:- Wed, Mar 14, 2001 at 15:04:40 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Bazza -:- Don't leave on my account! -:- Wed, Mar 14, 2001 at 23:23:29 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ gerry -:- You flatter yourself -:- Thurs, Mar 15, 2001 at 03:09:05 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Bazza -:- That's more like it -:- Thurs, Mar 15, 2001 at 03:24:41 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ gerry -:- That's more like it -:- Thurs, Mar 15, 2001 at 04:26:26 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Bazza -:- Suck it and see -:- Thurs, Mar 15, 2001 at 04:35:44 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ gerry -:- Suck it and see -:- Thurs, Mar 15, 2001 at 04:51:49 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Jim -:- Does *someone* smell a conspiracy a-brewin' ? -:- Wed, Mar 14, 2001 at 17:11:27 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Gerry -:- Jim, always the shill for the establishment -:- Wed, Mar 14, 2001 at 17:58:17 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Thelma the Fat Fag -:- For crying in a bucket of compost, Gerry -:- Wed, Mar 14, 2001 at 18:34:46 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Selene -:- me too GeRrY - you are a favorite -:- Wed, Mar 14, 2001 at 20:20:30 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Gerry -:- I meant EPO *church* ladies. Sorry. (NT) -:- Wed, Mar 14, 2001 at 15:58:08 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Jim -:- Gerry's right and you can all go fuck right off! -:- Wed, Mar 14, 2001 at 04:42:02 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Dermot -:- Sound advice Pat, er Thelma -:- Tues, Mar 13, 2001 at 23:44:53 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Dermot -:- Tired..pls excuse sloppy English above..g'night nt -:- Wed, Mar 14, 2001 at 00:06:03 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Pat Conlon -:- Thanks for sticking up for the FA, Bazza -:- Tues, Mar 13, 2001 at 23:44:48 (GMT)

Don Wilson -:- Everything and Nothing -:- Tues, Mar 13, 2001 at 17:40:52 (GMT)
__ AJW -:- A question Don. -:- Wed, Mar 14, 2001 at 11:53:58 (GMT)
__ wolfi -:- just to say thanks to you all -:- Wed, Mar 14, 2001 at 10:35:41 (GMT)
__ __ Pat Conlon -:- Hi Wolfi, -:- Wed, Mar 14, 2001 at 18:29:25 (GMT)
__ Nigel -:- Oh Gawd - here we go again... -:- Wed, Mar 14, 2001 at 03:02:55 (GMT)
__ Francesca -:- Best wishes, nonetheless n/t -:- Tues, Mar 13, 2001 at 22:22:01 (GMT)
__ Francesca -:- Yawwwwn. Get a clue -:- Tues, Mar 13, 2001 at 22:16:43 (GMT)
__ moldy warp -:- private life ? -:- Tues, Mar 13, 2001 at 22:16:12 (GMT)
__ cq -:- Everything and Nothing -:- Tues, Mar 13, 2001 at 21:43:24 (GMT)
__ Gregg -:- Nothing -:- Tues, Mar 13, 2001 at 21:05:07 (GMT)
__ __ G -:- bullying and verbal abuse -:- Tues, Mar 13, 2001 at 21:35:49 (GMT)
__ Bin Liner -:- Everything and Nothing -:- Tues, Mar 13, 2001 at 20:53:50 (GMT)
__ Cynthia -:- Everything and Nothing -:- Tues, Mar 13, 2001 at 20:51:17 (GMT)
__ Patrick (formerly Anon) -:- Everything and Nothing -:- Tues, Mar 13, 2001 at 20:47:14 (GMT)
__ Pat Conlon -:- Hi Don, thanks for posting under your real name -:- Tues, Mar 13, 2001 at 19:51:00 (GMT)
__ __ michael donner -:- Hi Don, thanks for posting under your real name -:- Wed, Mar 14, 2001 at 01:03:05 (GMT)
__ __ __ Pat Conlon -:- Michael Donner, are you thinking what I am? -:- Wed, Mar 14, 2001 at 01:41:07 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Jim -:- Need a nickname? How about 'Joan'? (nt) :) -:- Wed, Mar 14, 2001 at 03:44:27 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Thelma -:- Need a nickname? How about 'Joan'? -:- Wed, Mar 14, 2001 at 09:39:40 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Jim -:- Apter, silly! (nt) -:- Wed, Mar 14, 2001 at 17:29:28 (GMT)
__ G -:- You give money -:- Tues, Mar 13, 2001 at 19:38:23 (GMT)
__ Joe -:- Hi Don -:- Tues, Mar 13, 2001 at 17:56:41 (GMT)
__ Jim -:- Oh no! You didn't say 'Move on', did you? (nt) -:- Tues, Mar 13, 2001 at 17:43:19 (GMT)
__ __ Don -:- Oh no! You didn't say 'Move on', did you? (nt) -:- Tues, Mar 13, 2001 at 17:46:13 (GMT)

Susan -:- What would have been in Dr. K. notes ...... -:- Tues, Mar 13, 2001 at 15:49:27 (GMT)
__ Jim -:- No one cares, girl. Get it? -:- Tues, Mar 13, 2001 at 17:31:03 (GMT)
__ __ Susan -:- No one cares, girl. Get it? LOL -:- Tues, Mar 13, 2001 at 18:24:46 (GMT)
__ Gregg -:- I have no idea, but... -:- Tues, Mar 13, 2001 at 16:59:39 (GMT)

Mercedes -:- Newcommer -:- Tues, Mar 13, 2001 at 15:37:20 (GMT)
__ salam -:- Nice to see to -:- Wed, Mar 14, 2001 at 03:51:43 (GMT)
__ Roy -:- I salute your honesty and integrity ! nt -:- Wed, Mar 14, 2001 at 02:05:08 (GMT)
__ Mercedes -:- Thank you all -:- Wed, Mar 14, 2001 at 02:03:34 (GMT)
__ Francesca -:- Greetings and welcome -:- Tues, Mar 13, 2001 at 22:19:04 (GMT)
__ Dermot -:- Hi there Mercedes.. -:- Tues, Mar 13, 2001 at 21:17:43 (GMT)
__ Pat Conlon -:- I said HI before, Mercedes, but I'll say it again -:- Tues, Mar 13, 2001 at 19:29:24 (GMT)
__ Robyn -:- Newcommer -:- Tues, Mar 13, 2001 at 16:03:58 (GMT)
__ Susan -:- welcome Mercedes! -:- Tues, Mar 13, 2001 at 16:00:35 (GMT)
__ __ Cynthia -:- Welcome to Forum5... -:- Tues, Mar 13, 2001 at 16:24:02 (GMT)
__ __ __ Postie -:- Mercedes - are you who I think you are? -:- Tues, Mar 13, 2001 at 17:22:47 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Pat Conlon -:- Postie - are you who I think you are? -:- Tues, Mar 13, 2001 at 19:35:40 (GMT)

Aussi Ji -:- It's time to reveal my true identity -:- Tues, Mar 13, 2001 at 11:16:12 (GMT)
__ Richard -:- G'day Tony Ji -:- Thurs, Mar 15, 2001 at 02:30:14 (GMT)
__ sivan -:- luv AJ- do u have to kill him off,Tony? (NT) -:- Wed, Mar 14, 2001 at 10:33:15 (GMT)
__ __ Tony Walker -:- Thanks gorgeous.nt -:- Thurs, Mar 15, 2001 at 02:40:10 (GMT)
__ salam -:- Man you blew it -:- Wed, Mar 14, 2001 at 03:48:59 (GMT)
__ __ Tony Walker -:- This had nothing to do with Catweasel -:- Wed, Mar 14, 2001 at 08:42:43 (GMT)
__ __ __ salam -:- So what happened me mate? -:- Wed, Mar 14, 2001 at 11:37:35 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Tony Walker -:- So what happened me mate? -:- Thurs, Mar 15, 2001 at 02:44:10 (GMT)
__ __ __ CW -:- This had nothing to do with Catweasel -:- Wed, Mar 14, 2001 at 11:32:35 (GMT)
__ __ Catweasel -:- Man you blew it -:- Wed, Mar 14, 2001 at 06:58:15 (GMT)
__ __ __ salam -:- ah you poofta -:- Wed, Mar 14, 2001 at 11:20:10 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Victoria Bitter -:- ah you poofta -:- Wed, Mar 14, 2001 at 11:36:53 (GMT)
__ __ __ Tony Walker -:- Mate,don't flatter youself -:- Wed, Mar 14, 2001 at 08:47:56 (GMT)
__ Peter Howie -:- It's time to reveal my true identity -:- Wed, Mar 14, 2001 at 03:30:36 (GMT)
__ __ cw -:- It's time to reveal my true identity -:- Wed, Mar 14, 2001 at 06:54:54 (GMT)
__ __ __ Peter Howie -:- It's time to reveal my true identity -:- Thurs, Mar 15, 2001 at 04:01:18 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Cw -:- It's time to reveal my true identity -:- Thurs, Mar 15, 2001 at 11:51:11 (GMT)
__ Charles Sprague -:- Welcome out into the sunshine, Tony Ji (nt) -:- Tues, Mar 13, 2001 at 21:36:02 (GMT)
__ Pat Conlon -:- Tony Ji, you are my twin. I love you bro -:- Tues, Mar 13, 2001 at 19:19:31 (GMT)
__ Brian Smith -:- Thanks for the endorsement, Tony Ji -:- Tues, Mar 13, 2001 at 16:12:38 (GMT)
__ __ Tony walker -:- Thank You Brian. nt -:- Tues, Mar 13, 2001 at 20:03:33 (GMT)
__ Tony Ji -:- Farewell Aussi Ji. RIP nt -:- Tues, Mar 13, 2001 at 11:18:22 (GMT)
__ __ Susan -:- Gday Tony Ji ( feels good huh?) nt -:- Tues, Mar 13, 2001 at 16:01:26 (GMT)
__ __ __ Tony Walker -:- Thank You Susan..Yep sure does. nt -:- Tues, Mar 13, 2001 at 20:05:54 (GMT)
__ __ Dermot -:- Farewell Aussi Ji....hi tony ji nt -:- Tues, Mar 13, 2001 at 12:33:16 (GMT)
__ __ __ Tony Walker -:- Thank You Dermot nt -:- Tues, Mar 13, 2001 at 20:07:37 (GMT)
__ __ Aussi Ji -:- Ok .Who the hell are you mon ami? -:- Tues, Mar 13, 2001 at 11:21:30 (GMT)
__ __ __ Tony Ji -:- Calling all Catweazels.Come on down ! nt -:- Tues, Mar 13, 2001 at 11:47:44 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Catweasel -:- You rang? -:- Tues, Mar 13, 2001 at 12:11:58 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Tony Walker -:- Thank You Cw Now the ball is in your .. -:- Tues, Mar 13, 2001 at 20:18:53 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Nigel -:- Thank You Cw Now the ball is in your .. -:- Wed, Mar 14, 2001 at 02:02:01 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Tony Walker -:- Thank You Nigel .How right.. -:- Wed, Mar 14, 2001 at 08:52:30 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Thelma the Fat Fag -:- Victoria, sweetie Dahling, don't be so Bitter -:- Tues, Mar 13, 2001 at 19:27:28 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ AJW -:- You rang? -:- Tues, Mar 13, 2001 at 12:44:13 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ CW -:- You rang? -:- Wed, Mar 14, 2001 at 07:04:41 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ AJW -:- Who said anything about JS? -:- Wed, Mar 14, 2001 at 11:58:33 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ CW -:- Who said anything about JS? -:- Wed, Mar 14, 2001 at 13:11:54 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ AJW -:- It would be very good Cat. -:- Thurs, Mar 15, 2001 at 11:43:41 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ CW -:- Chill Anth -:- Thurs, Mar 15, 2001 at 11:59:09 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ AJW -:- me how? -:- Thurs, Mar 15, 2001 at 12:22:25 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Catweasel -:- me how?Miaow? -:- Fri, Mar 16, 2001 at 00:07:24 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ michael donner -:- You rang? -:- Tues, Mar 13, 2001 at 15:08:24 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Dermot -:- You rang? -:- Tues, Mar 13, 2001 at 21:11:13 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Tony Walker -:- You rang? -:- Tues, Mar 13, 2001 at 20:21:42 (GMT)


Date: Tues, Mar 13, 2001 at 21:29:28 (GMT)
From: Joe
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: Verbal/Spiritual Abuse
Message:
I think Gregg hit the nail on the head that even if you excuse Maharaji's 'personal life' it's really difficult to overlook the abuse Maharaji heaped on people, on different occasions.

I think some of the 'satsangs' he gave at certain programs definitely constituted abuse. The fear-mongering then, and at the ashram meetings, etc., are abusive because we were vulnerable to him due of who we believed he was, and how he was essential to our salvation, happiness and life. Sounds like some abusive relationships I have heard about.

One other experience of Maharaji's abuse I will never forget, and I have mentioned it before. It was at DECA in, in 1979, and Maharaji had come to see a mock-up of the stage for Hans Jayanti festival in Kissimmee. So, this was some weeks before that festival, in November, 1979.

I was standing off to the side, just watching, and the premies were explaining the design of the stage, the 'house' Maharaji would be staying in behind the stage, etc. Maharaji was REALLY unhappy with what they came up with, which appeared to be based on earlier directions they had gotten from Maharaji and tried to carry out.

He heaped abuse on the premies, really disparaging stuff about them and the design. The premies kept trying to 'surrender' and change the plans in a way would please him. They never argued with him. They never told him he was mistaken, or wrong, or that it didn't matter, etc., like you would hear in any normal kind of conversation on getting something like that done. They just tried to comply which what he wanted, which he wouldn't articulate, and the more they did, the more abusive Maharaji seemed to become.

They kept asking him what he wanted, and Maharaji acted like they should already know, and that just seemed to make him more abusive. Maharaji had this attitude like they should just do what he wanted, know it through ESP or 'GRACE' or something, and that he would know what he wanted when he saw it. He seemed to take no responsbility to make what he wanted clear to them, and they had all the responsibility to figure it out.

Finally, I think it was Jim Hession, just said, something like, 'please, Maharaji, I know if we were surrendered this would be happening in the way you want, but please, we just want to so whatever you want, and to please you.' (Or something like that.)

Anyhow, Maharaji remained completely dismissive, and left. The premies who were presenting the design looked really devestated, and I remember hearing people talk about it later, always in the context of believing that what Maharaji did was 'for them' and that 'it was what they needed,' etc, etc, but their faces and voices betrayed this positive cult-talk.

I remember getting sick to my stomach, so happy that I wasn't one of those premies, but so fearful of ever having to do anything to be in that position myself. I can still kind of feel the awful, sickening feeling I had at that time.

There were also stories in satsang from people who were in similar positions, always with the analysis that it was 'perfect' or 'love' or some other kind of rationalization. Never did anyone say Maharaji was a jerk, or unfair, or cruel, or childish, or anything like that. His motives and actions were always above reproach, or even analysis, except within the cult dogma.

Does anybody else remember stuff like this? I know Michael Donner has alluded to this stuff, but it would be great to hear more about this.

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Date: Wed, Mar 14, 2001 at 05:40:25 (GMT)
From: Katie Darling
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: Verbal/Spiritual Abuse
Message:
Hi Joe,

Yes, I agree. Even if you take out all this scandalous stuff, some of which could be construed as MJ's 'private' life and some of which affected people (like the blondes), there is no denying the verbal abuse. Personally I didn't suffer from his drinking, et al, but his verbal abuse left scary wounds.

Actually, I have found that pointing out his bullying, fear and guilt-inducing verbal habits is the most powerful thing for fence-sitters, as many of them may be inured to scandal, due to the 'lila' clause.

I love the way all these details are coming out. It's quite fascinating and it feels as though he won't be able to go on for long with this much shit revealed. But I still think the real argument against being around him is his incredible disowned rage.

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Date: Tues, Mar 13, 2001 at 22:40:20 (GMT)
From: D_Thomas
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: Devil's Advocate
Message:
Actually Joe, felt the same awful sickening feeling at the same time and I was over 2000 miles away in Berkeley at the time. The bottom just fell out of satsang at Carleton St. and was replaced by this cold, clammy deathly feeling.

So the sake of discussion, let me play devil's advocate and claim that there are times when it is advatageous to be 'abusive'.

Take, for example, Marine Corps boot camp. The young recruits are definitely abused. They are yelled at by their drill instructors, they are physically tortured by constant exercise, they are deprived of sleep. They are not allowed to speak unless granted permission. Yet society tolerates this 'abuse' because we know that in the end we are making good soldiers out of these boys.

It's not just Maharaji, but also Shri Hans and probably hundreds of other gurus who are/were 'abusive'. I don't know if it is just a single personality trait, but an entire tradition of the Guru making it hard on the devotee continually. I've heard stories. Little by little the devotee's ego gets worn away until finally he is simple and humble and ready to recieve the gift that the master then bestows upon him.

Actually, when I remember Hans Jayanti '79, I went through hell, but I can't for the life of me remember what the physical basis of that suffering was. It was like I was torturing myself with false expectations and then disappointment far better than Maharaji could do personally, himself.

Personally, I don't really like the idea of abuse and suffering, but back then it seemed to be part of the package. I've thought about this alot, but I don't really have the answers. What's your take on this?

David

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Date: Wed, Mar 14, 2001 at 02:10:18 (GMT)
From: Michael Dettmers
Email: dettmers@gylanix.com
To: D_Thomas
Subject: Devil's Advocate
Message:
David,

If you're going to play the devil's advocate you have to take into consideration all that you know about your client. For starters, do you accept my and other's reports that your client is an abusive alcoholic? Do you accept that he sexually exploited and continues to sexually exploit his female devotees, etc., etc.?

If you accept these reports, you must realize that your client is living in a state of perpetual dissatisfaction. He is dissatisfied with his wife, dissatisfied with his devotees, and dissatisfied with whatever new and expensive toy he has just acquired. In short, the evidence strongly suggests that he is dissatisfied with his life and everyone and everything connected with it.

Now, I'm sure there are millions of people who fit this description, save for the following -- they do not claim to be The Master who is capable of offering people the Knowledge that will enable them to connect with the beauty, the light and the love that is within inside of them and the source of peace and satisfaction.

As the devil's advocate, you must come to grips with this discrepancy when planning your defense. For me it is plain. Your client is a hypocrite and a fraud. As a jurist, you will have to come up with a much better explanation for his inexcusable behavior than your boot camp analogy.

Michael

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Date: Thurs, Mar 15, 2001 at 22:27:54 (GMT)
From: D_Thomas
Email: None
To: Michael Dettmers
Subject: Devil's Advocate
Message:
Michael,

I didn't mean to ignore you. I was trying to explore the lila/abuse issue, which is interesting because it is two different ways of looking at the same event, as Joe was starting to point out.

You're bring up the morality of Maharaji issue which is something different. I've read your posts on the subject. I don't know what to think. In most scandals it boils down to someone's word against someone else's word. Who do you believe? Who do you want to believe?

In your post there is this undertone of anger, which automatically sets off alarm bells, like 'He has an axe to grind.' or 'he's just a disgruntled former employee.' When I try to communicate with ex-premies here, I very often get a response with some hint of anger or exasperation. Primarily directed at Maharaji but also at me for being a premie. So it's very hard to have a discussion that isn't in some way emotional, but is completely objective. I could get a similar emotional reaction from trying to discuss things with a die hard premie.

Maybe Maharaji is completely immoral or dissatisfied, but I also get a reaction after seeing him at programs, which makes it very easy to experience meditation. I don't know how it very often happens but it happens like that. If I believe you, then I would have to say that his being immoral and being able to affect me like that are not necessarily related. They would have to be two completely different things.

I'm not really an advocate. I just play one for the hell of it.

David

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Date: Fri, Mar 16, 2001 at 01:17:05 (GMT)
From: Michael Dettmers
Email: dettmers@gylanix.com
To: D_Thomas
Subject: Devil's Advocate
Message:
David,

I my opinion, there wasn’t even a tinge of anger in my response to you, nor did I feel exasperated by your post. I even qualified what I said by first asking you if you believed my reports, or not. If not, then I understood that my argument as the devil's devil's advocate would have no basis for you.

Having said that, I am very indignant at Maharaji for the abuse he has inflicted. However, in my ontology I distinguish 'anger' from 'indignation' in that the former is usually emotionally based and often precludes the affected parties from engaging in respectful dialogue. Indignation, on the other hand, is based upon a grounded assessment. It may be spoken with force as in a complaint, but it does offer facts to support the accusation. Expressions of indignation are often accompanied by a demand for compensation and/or an apology, but they also allow the accused to maintain their dignity. However, just because an expression of indignation is grounded, that in itself does not necessarily make it 'right.' One could, for example, have gotten his/her facts wrong by mistake or mis-information.

Having said that, I do believe that Maharaji’s, or anyone else’s, morality is a reflection of their character. What matters most to me about a person’s moral behavior is whether or not they practice what they preach. I am not particularly interested in morality for morality’s sake. It is my personal experience that Maharaji does not, hence, my condemnation of him as a hypocrite. I find this particularly appalling in a spiritual teacher/master.

If you someday conclude that my reports, now being substantiated and embellished by several other eye witnesses, are true, and you find that fact morally disturbing, you may wish to further explore if Maharaji has anything to do with the experience you so cherish, or if that experience is already yours without any need to believe in Maharaji. Something for you to consider, David.

Michael

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Date: Fri, Mar 16, 2001 at 00:25:43 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: D_Thomas
Subject: Devil's Advocate
Message:
In your post there is this undertone of anger, which automatically sets off alarm bells, like 'He has an axe to grind.' or 'he's just a disgruntled former employee.'

This is what really bugs me about you cult members. You're like wagons with wheels missing on one side only. Are those the only two explanations you can think of for Mike's perceived 'undertone of anger'? How about the possibility that Maharaji deserves the anger. Ever think of that?

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Date: Fri, Mar 16, 2001 at 01:46:10 (GMT)
From: Connie
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: D Thomas.......Scandals??
Message:
DT

MD has stated facts, now verified by others, how is this scandal, or someone's word against another?

These things are about what they saw m doing and heard him saying. M so far has said nothing in response. So it is not one person's word against another.

I don't think the lila/abuse issue is seperate from morality, it is often one's (lack of) morality that makes one abusive.

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Date: Wed, Mar 14, 2001 at 17:34:45 (GMT)
From: Liz
Email: None
To: Michael Dettmers
Subject: So, so Perfect
Message:
Dear Micheal,Katie & Co.,

That's the trouble when you have to act perfect. YOu have to cover things up. It's so easy to look perfect for an hour or so on a stage or in an audience for that matter.

When it comes to being as good as you can in life I think M gives people and himself an excuse to give up. The excuse being it's all a lilla and an illusion anyway so whats the point. Just give yourself to Maharaji and everything will be O.K. As we all know this just doesn't work.

This is really a security blanket for all those who give up with trying to lead an ethical life in the real world who come across difficulties and think they can't make it.

I'm not trying to be perfect anymore.

Love,

Liz

ps Hi Katie, darling, if you still have my email could you please let me know what my password to the Recent Ex site is as I would like to get back there.

Thanks

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Date: Wed, Mar 14, 2001 at 02:40:43 (GMT)
From: Pat Conlon
Email: None
To: Michael Dettmers
Subject: Michael Dettmers, but it's alla lila.
Message:
You say: ''...your client is living in a state of perpetual dissatisfaction.''

He doesn't really have any desires. He is totally at peace, in nirvana, desireless, egoless and timeless. He just pretends that he has desires so he can give his devotees the gift of servitude - you know - busy work. It's lila and the game has just begun.

Can you remember if Mr Rawat was drunk when he killed the man with his car?

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Date: Wed, Mar 14, 2001 at 12:00:58 (GMT)
From: Michael Dettmers
Email: dettmers@gylanix.com
To: Pat Conlon
Subject: Yeah, right.
Message:
Pat,

Regarding your first point, it's hard to believe I/we could rationalize away his dispicable behavior by buying into that crap, at least for a while.

Regarding your second point, Maharaji was not drunk when he accidently hit and killed the unfortunate cyclist. My point in bringing up the story was to demonstrate that Maharaji has, when he so chooses, the intentionality, the resources, and many willing accomplices to cover-up and/or lie about any situation.

In my opinion, this is what Maharaji and his accomplices in Elan Vital are doing with respect to the Jagdeo child molestation scandal. Only this time he won't get away with it, unless we let him.

Michael

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Date: Wed, Mar 14, 2001 at 19:25:37 (GMT)
From: Pat Conlon
Email: None
To: Michael Dettmers
Subject: Thanks for clarification, Michael NT
Message:
g
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Date: Tues, Mar 13, 2001 at 23:20:37 (GMT)
From: Postie
Email: None
To: D_Thomas
Subject: Devil's Advocate- here's where your argument fails
Message:
Firstly, I understand you are playing devils' advocate discussing the value in an ideal guru/devotee relationship. Your argument for argument's sake would be a good one, except for one huge point.

You say: 'Little by little the devotee's ego gets worn away until finally he is simple and humble and ready to recieve the gift that the master then bestows upon him.'

Your argument assumes that:

#1 the gift is worth receiving and his to give

and (very important point lurkers)

#2 the 'master' has YOUR best interests at heart and mind while you are being worn down. In M's case, there is one and only one person who's interests are being considered and it ain't yours.

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Date: Tues, Mar 13, 2001 at 23:13:37 (GMT)
From: Pat Conlon
Email: None
To: D_Thomas
Subject: Devil's Advocate - let's say that Rawat is Master
Message:
a great yogi, Balyogeshwar, just for the sake of argument. Maybe he is even the reincarnation of Krishna, perhaps even of God Almighty. Do we really have to tolerate such nonsense?

As I have said to numerous fence-sitters here: Even if Rawat is God he still must abide by the laws of democratic civilization and common decency. We do not live in India, thank God.

If he wishes to ''teach'' in the west then let him abide by our standards.

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Date: Tues, Mar 13, 2001 at 22:57:46 (GMT)
From: Joe
Email: None
To: D_Thomas
Subject: No, don't agree
Message:
I don't get your logic, D. What possible advantage could there be in Maharaji verbally abusing people? Was he putting us through boot camp? What are you talking about?

Military boot camp is for the purpose of tearing people down, and then building them back up to follow orders, and for unit cohesion. There is a lot of skepticism about whether or not this acutally works, and what kind of people actually result from this kind of training.

Plus, it isn't like the drill instructor is talks about love and trust and then belittles the recruit. Plus, the recruit is free to hate the drill instructor, and doesn't consider the drill instructor anything other than a human being doing a job. Maharaji on the other hand, held himself out as god, demanded that we surrender to him, told us he was the key to our salvation, etc. This made us all the more vulnerable to his tirades. The two things couldn't be more different.

Part of the reason Gurus are abusive, and it is a common trait, is because they CAN be and don't have to pay the consequences. Think about it. If you are abusive to your co-worker, you might get fire, or punched, or have your tires slashed. There are consequences for normal people that keep them from being abusive. Maharaji didn't have that. Hence, he had even more responsibility not to be abusive, because, essentially, the victims of his abuse couldn't fight back. What do you do, slap God for being a jerk?

I know it was all considered 'part of the package.' That's why people allowed themselves to be abused. That was my point.

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Date: Wed, Mar 14, 2001 at 21:22:18 (GMT)
From: D_Thomas
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: No, don't agree
Message:
Joe, you have this tendency for starting threads that are right on the mark. I mean good questions that have no easy answer.

I think you do know what I am talking about because you used to be in among the crowd that thought that way: accepting he lila as an opportunity to grow in Knowledge. 'Hard times have never been better'. It would have been sufficient for you to say that you don't think like that anymore.

A question is: did M abuse people because he thought (maybe in a twisted mind) that that would make them better, more humbled, less in their minds? Or was M a recreational abuser? Did he do it for his own reasons. He wasn't feeling good that day so he decided to take it out on someone else? This might be an unanswerable question because how can anyone tell unless they can peak into M's mind and tell what he is thinking?

I heard this story about young Prem Pal. One day Shri Hans said to him 'Go! get out of my sight! I don't want to ever see you again!' So the young Prem was crest-fallen and sad, but he went away and started walking towards the mountains, the Himalayas. Shri Hans sent a Mahatma to follow him 'Don't tell him I sent you. Just talk to him and find outwhere he is going'. So the Mahatma followed him and caught up with him and asked him where he was going. And Prem Pal said 'Maharaji doesn't want to see me anymore. I'm going to the mountains.' This kept on for quite a while until finally the Mahatma told him yes Maharaji truly does care because he sent me to follow you.

You might have heard this story. It really does trouble me because does there have to be heartbreak pain and suffering? Is this the path? Or is it all just Sado-Masochism. Did the Marquis de Sade have it right all the time?

David

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Date: Wed, Mar 14, 2001 at 21:50:41 (GMT)
From: Pat Conlon
Email: None
To: D_Thomas
Subject: David, the lilas were all caused by boozing
Message:
and subsequent hangovers.
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Date: Thurs, Mar 15, 2001 at 22:29:57 (GMT)
From: D_Thomas
Email: None
To: Pat Conlon
Subject: That's a Pat answer, Pat
Message:
Blame it all on the booze.
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Date: Tues, Mar 13, 2001 at 23:03:45 (GMT)
From: Pat Conlon
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: No, don't agree - the whole idea of a ''Master''
Message:
STINKS!

Yes, there is a tradition of spritual masters abusing devotees that's why the whole idea stinks. Of course this is mostly a Hindu or Zen idea but of course Hindus have widow-burning and the largest slave-trade in the world. While in the west we expect people to behave decently. Give me the Sermon on the Mount any day over the Bratguru's temper tantrums and good old-fashioned Christian love and kindness.

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Date: Tues, Mar 13, 2001 at 22:04:37 (GMT)
From: Pat Conlon
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: Rawat in bad mood because of hangover
Message:
Teacher my ass. Master my arse. Bratguru, spoilt, corrupt ignoramus.
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Date: Tues, Mar 13, 2001 at 22:23:46 (GMT)
From: Joe
Email: None
To: Pat Conlon
Subject: Do you think it was due to alcohol abuse?
Message:
Of course, at the time, I didn't think Maharaji smoked or drank, fool that I was to believe the image he was presenting to us. So, it would never have occurred to me that he was just grumpy from a hangover and just wanted to take it out on somebody. The insidious thing about being the master is that you almost always have somebody to take your frustrations out on. And if Mahaaji treats a premie so badly they leave, or end up in a mental institution, or whatever, there is another willing devotee who would be thrilled to 'do service' or maybe 'participate' in his presence.
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Date: Tues, Mar 13, 2001 at 22:59:34 (GMT)
From: Pat Conlon
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: Do you think it was due to alcohol abuse?
Message:
Or a cocaine come-down, or not getting laid the night before, or a bad acid trip or his will was thwarted in some other way. basically just temper tantrums. He beat up Sampuranand in fron tof my husband. Nasty, mean little fucker, control freak.
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Date: Tues, Mar 13, 2001 at 21:51:26 (GMT)
From: G
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: It's still happening.
Message:
Rawat's fear-mongering and playing upon peoples' guilt that is. In the 'father's day' program just last year, he talked about how religions play upon guilt and fear, then he did it himself. He talked about an analogy of driving a car, that if you don't pay attention you could crash your car or go off a bridge and drown. That was just the 'rotten vegetables' and 'getting smashed to pieces' analogies reworded. Of course, there was still the excuse going on that was for the pwikies own good. Same old bullshit. He yelled a lot during that program.
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Date: Wed, Mar 14, 2001 at 02:00:45 (GMT)
From: Mercedes
Email: None
To: everybody
Subject: Tired of it
Message:
Thanks for all your thoughts, I am tired of it. I wish I could remember what he said at HJ '79 because all I remember is the shame I felt for having left the Ashram, he was very mean that first day. He had no right to shame anyone of us.
He uses people, he is the worst of perpetrators, there is no excuse.
Yes I am very, very angry!!!!
And the worst part is dealing with the deep programing I got having received K in '75 in Argentina, those were the worst years .
I feel I could go on and on....
I am ANGRY AT THE BASTARD okay I said it.
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Date: Wed, Mar 14, 2001 at 05:34:28 (GMT)
From: Katie Darling
Email: darlingwave@aol.com
To: Mercedes
Subject: Querida Mercedes
Message:
Si recibiste conocimiento en Argentina en 1975, tal vez te recuerdas de mi.

I was travelling with Sulakshna Bai translating Knowledge sessions (and cooking for her) all over South America. We went to Buenos Aires, Cordoba, Mendoza and Diego's mother's ranch. My name was Katie Jones back then.

If you remember me or want to talk about the South American MLD scene, you are welcome to e-mail me.

Carino

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Date: Wed, Mar 14, 2001 at 02:27:25 (GMT)
From: G
Email: None
To: Mercedes
Subject: Sometimes anger is good.
Message:
He certainly wasn't living any hellish ashram lifestyle, that's for sure. I say good for you for leaving the ashram, I wish I had before he closed them, it was devastating. I felt like such a fool for having stayed in to the bitter end.

Sometimes anger is a signal to fight those that are doing us harm, to protect ourself. It can be used as a tool to get back self-esteem instead of being treated as a 'negative' emotion to be avoided at all costs, or simply letting it consume us. We are angry because we know we didn't deserve the abuse he heeped on us. We are angry because he continues to hurt others.

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Date: Wed, Mar 14, 2001 at 02:37:39 (GMT)
From: Mercedes
Email: None
To: G
Subject: Sometimes anger is good.
Message:
Your are dammned right, anger is good. For me yes I left the ashram but after a year and a half I ended up at a premi house, and the abuse there was something I can talk about it with my therapist. It was awful all in the name of maharaji. Also a mahatma fondled me when I was most vulnerable. Tried to deny it for years but not any more, no more denial, no more secrets.
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Date: Wed, Mar 14, 2001 at 03:27:40 (GMT)
From: Pat Conlon
Email: None
To: Mercedes
Subject: Also a mahatma fondled me
Message:
You said: ''Also a mahatma fondled me when I was most vulnerable.''

Do you remember the name of the mahatma? I do not like to blame premies but I believe that many of the Hindu mahatmas were just as responsible for creating an immoral Hindu cult as the Bratguru.

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Date: Wed, Mar 14, 2001 at 03:21:31 (GMT)
From: Abi
Email: None
To: Mercedes
Subject: Sometimes anger is good.
Message:
Dear Mercedes,

it takes courage to speak out about these things. I hope your anger continues to give you the courage to speak about the abuse.

best wishes

Abi

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Date: Wed, Mar 14, 2001 at 06:03:23 (GMT)
From: Postie
Email: None
To: Mercedes
Subject: In this case, naming names is justified
Message:
Mercedes,

Thanks for being brave enough to revisit your old hurt. If you feel like it, it would be helpful to say who it was that molested you. And, was it reported then or later?

Postie

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Date: Wed, Mar 14, 2001 at 07:26:02 (GMT)
From: Mercedes
Email: None
To: Postie
Subject: In this case, naming names is justified
Message:
Okay, this is very difficult for me and I hope this is safe, this happened in the early eighties, I said fondled maybe that's not the right word, Padarthanand was trying to calm me down, I was very upset so he stroke my back and my arms and then my chest, he run his hands over my breasts,it felt dirty, there was no need for that. I went into a deep place inside of me and tryied not to feel anything. I would not open my eyes for the life of me and it went away. I felt violated it may seem like nothing maybe to another person but it was a violation to me. I have never been able to talk about it nor have I reported it. I always kept my distance from Padarthanand and I don't trust him at all.
I am really angry at him, at maharaji, at the whole system it is unhealthy, it is sick.
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Date: Thurs, Mar 15, 2001 at 21:46:40 (GMT)
From: Susan
Email: None
To: Mercedes
Subject: In this case, naming names is justified
Message:
Mercedes,

It is terrible that this happened to you. Padarthanand abused his power to abuse you and that is horrible.

It was a violation because you trusted him as a spiritual person, and used your trust in order to prey on you sexually.

It sounds like Padarthanand, like Jagdeo, found his position as a mahatma quite a good way to get away with awful behavior. I am sorry we had to cross the paths of these lousy excuses for humans.

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Date: Thurs, Mar 15, 2001 at 01:42:28 (GMT)
From: abi
Email: None
To: Mercedes
Subject: In this case, naming names is justified
Message:
Dear Mercedes,
you are right - the whole system is unhealthy. I can understand some of what you say about going into a deep place inside and feeling violated. What an abuse of power. What a disgusting creep. It makes me angry to hear of yet more abuse from the so called Mahatmas. Don't feel like a victim though. Take back your power.

take care

Abi

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Date: Wed, Mar 14, 2001 at 16:55:55 (GMT)
From: Joe
Email: kevjo@mindspring.com
To: Mercedes
Subject: You are not alone
Message:
Mercedes,

I am aware of at least one other women who told me she was sexually assaulted by Padarthanad. So you are not alone in this, nor does is appear that Padarthanad was the only culprit in the Maharaji cult. Please feel free to email me if I can provide any additional information. Thanks for your courage for speaking up. I might just help others who were in similar situations, and perhaps to warn others about the situation now.

Joe

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Date: Thurs, Mar 15, 2001 at 00:35:37 (GMT)
From: Joe
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: Sorry, typo, that should be 'It' might help others
Message:
not, I might help others.
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Date: Wed, Mar 14, 2001 at 09:42:40 (GMT)
From: Jean-Michel
Email: None
To: Mercedes
Subject: Padarthanand is also 1 of the bastards!!!
Message:
I feel so sorry for you.

But it looks like this was not an isolated 'incident' from Padarthanand, and it would be great if some other victims talk about what this bastard did to them ....

I've already heard quite some other stories about him.

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Date: Wed, Mar 14, 2001 at 07:58:42 (GMT)
From: Pat Conlon
Email: None
To: Mercedes
Subject: In this case, naming Pardathand is justified
Message:
Thank you Mercedes for telling us. What happened to you is sexual harassment and it is only a few steps below rape because it involves power and is NOT consensual. It is degrading and violating and disgusting. It is not what PARDATHAND did to you. It was what ugly motives that drove him to be so disrespectful and invade your privacy that is what is important. The man is a disgrace to his profession and I hope his arrogance and filthy mind haunt him.
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Date: Thurs, Mar 15, 2001 at 00:21:40 (GMT)
From: Brian Smith
Email: None
To: Pat Conlon
Subject: In this case, naming Pardathand is justified
Message:
When Pardarthanand came to Portland and I was assigned to chauffer him around the interesting thing that I noted about him was whenever we went anywhere he always requested (insisted) that we be accompanied by 2 or 3 sisters from the premie house or the ashram and even from the aspirant pool. He would hand pick the ones that he wanted to take along, and he wanted to go places often, many sight seeing trips, excursions and errands. Evidently reasons to pack himself clustered up in the back seat in close proximity to female bodies.

I thought that this was a bit odd at the time since none of the other mahatma's that I did similiar service for were quite so adventuresome. I even drove Jagdeo and he was relatively sedentary did not go many places outside of official DLM business, although he was arrogant and demanding.

This bit of info from you Mercedes fits another piece of the puzzle together.

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Date: Wed, Mar 14, 2001 at 15:56:06 (GMT)
From: Postie
Email: None
To: Mercedes
Subject: Thank you Mercedes
Message:
You are brave and have my total respect and support. You are safe.
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Date: Wed, Mar 14, 2001 at 02:57:03 (GMT)
From: G
Email: None
To: Mercedes
Subject: What bastards
Message:
It saddens and angers me that this happened to you. There's no need to deny it or keep it a secret. You were the victim. The shame belongs to them.
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Date: Wed, Mar 14, 2001 at 02:46:16 (GMT)
From: Pat Conlon
Email: None
To: Mercedes
Subject: Sometimes anger is good, Mercedes
Message:
I wish I could read Spanish. I bet you could give Mr Rawat hell in Spanish because you are doing such a good job already in English. Mr Rawat is not a good man and so we are entitled to be angry with him for abusing our trust.
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Date: Tues, Mar 13, 2001 at 20:48:01 (GMT)
From: cq
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: Cheesecake (we're out of moonlight) and Roses ...
Message:
The coldest grey ghost of a paper rose that I ever did see is the one maharaji uses to say 'thank you' on his website - here

Kind of ... spookily tragic, no?

(incidentally - does this link bypass his usual copyright warning for you? It did for me)

.
.
.

Ah well, he must have had his mind on something else - like battling the belly-bulge perhaps?


This is from EV's quote for today from 'Tubbs' Rawat (lardy, lardy ...)


Vol. 2 - Issue 52, Mar. 13 2001


Daily Edition

The weird dances of the mind

Edited excerpt, Maharaji in Alexandria, 18th June 2000

'Do you know how many people make
New Year resolutions? Talk about a
game in which you not the stick, nor
the player, but you are the puck. Yes,
make the resolution, 'I will lose 500
pounds next year.'
Next morning, open
the refrigerator: the cheesecake is
there. 'Just a small piece,' you think,
'It won't hurt me. I will make up for it
later.' So, you take a little piece.
'Mmm, that's so good.' Isn't it good?
Maybe you can have another piece - so far it is the
same size or slightly smaller than the first piece. Hey,
what difference does it make? Why are you going to
make yourself cut that cheesecake fifteen times?
Because, the fact of the matter is, that cheesecake is
history.

That's what Kabir meant when he said. 'Mind, you make
me do weird dances.' And weird dances they are.'

Copyright © 2000-2001 Visions International

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Date: Wed, Mar 14, 2001 at 00:47:34 (GMT)
From: moldy warp
Email: None
To: cq
Subject: Cheesecake (we're out of moonlight) and Roses ...
Message:
Looks like the rose is in mourning. And yes, it did bypass the security battlements. And,I hate that M quote. I am puke makingly sick of that violent and dangerous CRAP about the so-called mind.
IF YOU ARE READING THIS M (which of course you are not as you will not confront your responsibilies) - stop messing with peoples heads - you are responsible for severe psychic damage to innocent souls - your message is divisive and I wish that somehow you could realise that and become whole yourself.(I would like to forgive you as it is not my place to judge others but I am not finding that possible at the moment)
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Date: Wed, Mar 14, 2001 at 01:28:41 (GMT)
From: Pat Conlon
Email: None
To: moldy warp
Subject: Moldy, I would also like to forgive Mr Rawat but
Message:
if ever you have know alcoholic abusers (I have in my own family) then you also know that each time you forgive them they cry and say they will never do it again. Then they get drunk and do it again. (Mr Rawat did this with Sampuranand in front of my first ex-husband in Copenhagen after beating him up.) He is drunk with power even if that power is largely an illusion.

Until he sees the error of his ways, confesses them and forgives himself no amount of my forgiveness will ever do him any good.

Mr Rawat, I will forgive you the day you come on to FV and say: 'My name is Prempal and I am an assoholic who is addicted to money, sex with submissive female employees and delusions of grandeur.''

It would also be nice if he fessed up to being an FVoholic.

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Date: Tues, Mar 13, 2001 at 18:14:44 (GMT)
From: Jerry
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: What's up, FA?
Message:
I don't know who you are, but if they had a vote right now, I'd have you impeached. Gerry's right. You're the most heavy handed FA we've had yet.

Lighten up.

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Date: Tues, Mar 13, 2001 at 21:30:44 (GMT)
From: Dermot
Email: None
To: Jerry
Subject: What's up, FA?
Message:
Hey cut to the chase mate!! succint ....effective message.
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Date: Tues, Mar 13, 2001 at 21:58:42 (GMT)
From: Pat Conlon
Email: None
To: Dermot
Subject: What's up, FA? Editor or censor?
Message:
This is a hard call to make and I am glad that I do not have to make it so I will not offer the FA any unsolicited advice.

BUT, I think if I were in the FA's shoes I would wait for a few cries of outrage before deleting posts.

gErRy's recently deleted post was a close call not so much because of it's content and links but because it was rather infantile and not particularly amusing.

But we have all made fools of ourselves here before and regretted it alter. I think if I had made such a silly post I would at first be angry that the FA deleted it and then be grateful that he had spared me the embarassment and wrath of outraged psoters.

Where were you FA, when Thelma needed you to delete her drunken rampages on FV? I hang my head in shame.

Thanks for doing your thankless task. Easy with those scissors and you know you can always ask peoples' opinions by email if you have any doubts about the fine line between being editor and censor. That way you can say Thelma told you to do it and blame that silly bitch.

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Date: Wed, Mar 14, 2001 at 04:10:36 (GMT)
From: gerry
Email: None
To: Pat Conlon
Subject: But that's the point, Pat
Message:
It was a silly post. But then it was a really silly comment from deputy dog about the Special K. Since when is deconstructing premie beliefs out of bounds?

As far as 'funny' well, I thought it was funny, a little offbeat perhaps, but humor is subjective. Besides, Jim thought it was kinda funny, too. so there

And as I said, the links were obvious as to content and noone was forced to click on them.

Whoever this FA is, they have been quite heavy handed (at least compared to what we are used to here.) I sense increasing censorship here and it would be a shame to have to modify one's expressions, silly or not, in order to not be censored by some anonymous FA.

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Date: Wed, Mar 14, 2001 at 04:19:37 (GMT)
From: Pat Conlon
Email: None
To: gerry
Subject: But that's the point, Gerry
Message:
I'm not only a libertarian as you know but a bit of an anarchist so I don't believe in censorship AT ALL.

I just thought we could tell the FA NICELY since he is an unpaid volunteer to act rather as an EDITOR than a CENSOR.

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Date: Tues, Mar 13, 2001 at 23:14:54 (GMT)
From: Bazza
Email: None
To: Pat Conlon
Subject: Sound advice Pat, er Thelma
Message:
Seems every time the FA does something he or she gets it in the neck from somebody - you'r right a thanklesss task and not one I would take on board. Point of order though Pat, gErRys post wasnt deleted, it just had links to some serial killer websites removed (i read it before it got snipped). The gist of his joke about Deputy Dog, such as it was, was pretty much unafected - ie it wasn't funny WITH the links either, so no real harm was done.

The real embarrassment is reading gErRys infantile tantrum after the fact and his wholly unnecessary side-swipe at janet. Oh sure, the FA denied me my 'choice' of clicking onto some nasty websites about serial killers...I feel so...DEPRIVED. Yeah right. Oh gee gErRy, pull-ease post those links again, I can't WAIT to read about those nutters. You related to any of them?

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Date: Wed, Mar 14, 2001 at 04:32:54 (GMT)
From: gerry
Email: None
To: Bazza
Subject: Yes, It's good advice
Message:
Seems every time the FA does something he or she gets it in the neck from somebody - you'r right a thanklesss task and not one I would take on board.

Well, I think YOU are the FA, Barry, so I think your statement about not taking the job is just bullshit. And I apologize if I'm wrong. Besides, I've done the job and it was a piece of cake. Of course I didn't need to reach for my asthma inhalor every time someone said 'fuck.'

Point of order though Pat, gErRys post wasnt deleted, it just had links to some serial killer websites removed (i read it before it got snipped).

You gutted my post and left a mutilated corpse. It would have been better to delete the entire thread. I probably wouldn't have noticed...

The gist of his joke about Deputy Dog, such as it was, was pretty much unafected - ie it wasn't funny WITH the links either, so no real harm was done.

Like I said I thought it was kinda funny and so did Jim. Humor is subjective, right? What I was attempting to do, albeit with humor, was to deconstruct a statement from Deputy Dog that struck me as especially specious. Sorry.

The real embarrassment is reading gErRys infantile tantrum after the fact and his wholly unnecessary side-swipe at janet.

Janet had no business telling me to go to some other website. I gave her a little hell and then tried to explain myself. That hardly qualifies as a 'tantrum.'

Oh sure, the FA denied me my 'choice' of clicking onto some nasty websites about serial killers...I feel so...DEPRIVED. Yeah right. Oh gee gErRy, pull-ease post those links again, I can't WAIT to read about those nutters. You related to any of them?

Like I said, I'm pretty sure YOU are the FA so again this is being disingenuous, Barry. Lots of people read true crime, its a very popular genre and it doesn't mean the reader harbors any criminal fantasies.


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Date: Wed, Mar 14, 2001 at 11:26:16 (GMT)
From: janet
Email: None
To: gerry
Subject: 'told you'? i was offering, brainstorming..
Message:
i didnt even know i was sideswiped tll i saw this.

i had completely forgotten about AG myself until salam reminded me it was stil up . i felt like a fool having emailed all the forum regs to keep in touch while this was down when AG was still there!

so as soon as i came over from there to here and saw this whole blowout about censorship, all i did was mention what i had just come from.

theres a world of difference between' telling someone to go do it somewhere else' and pointing out that they can do exactly what they just did here- and- got- canned- for- it, next door, and not be touched for it.
one is hostile and banishing. the other is a bright reminder thats a solution.

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Date: Thurs, Mar 15, 2001 at 04:37:00 (GMT)
From: gerry
Email: None
To: janet
Subject: 'told you'? i was offering, brainstorming..
Message:
funny thing is janet, I do know about Anything Goes. It came from a paradise net forum I set up called 'Magical Mystery Tour.'

So telling me to 'go there' is akin to telling me to fuck off outta here, gittit?

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Date: Wed, Mar 14, 2001 at 21:38:09 (GMT)
From: Selene
Email: None
To: janet
Subject: btw Janet thank you (OT sort of)
Message:
Thank you for responding to me over on AG, regarding my own
side-swipe out-of-the-blue sadness after hearing Love Song on a movie. It's about loss of youthful idealism and missing that feeling of WANTING to do something, to care. I don't think we have to equate leaving the cult with losing these things.
and
I suppose it's also an age thing, learning the hard way that not everyone has your best interests in mind. lots of things happen but I've always felt aging to be a state of mind in many ways.
Anyway, just had a bday last month and lost my mom this fall, it kind of gets to you. and I really appreciated your response.
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Date: Wed, Mar 14, 2001 at 05:41:15 (GMT)
From: Bazza
Email: None
To: gerry
Subject: Apology accepted:)
Message:
Because wrong you are mate. You seem to like 'outing' people, even if its just a wild guess. What's up with that ger?

Well I'm lost among all the 'fucks'. Are we supposed to fuck ourselves or each other? Ah sweet FA! (one for the brits) This is much ado about nothing - why not just repost whatever you lost and see what happens, chances are it will stick next time. I bet the FA (aren't there supposed to be a bunch of them?) will be thoroughly sick of the aftermath and will give you a wide berth for a while.

Is this going anywhere? Nah not really. We all got opinions I suppose and having a barney can be fun once in a while.

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Date: Wed, Mar 14, 2001 at 15:04:40 (GMT)
From: Gerry
Email: None
To: Bazza
Subject: gErRy retires; EPO child ladies victorious !!!
Message:
The only person I 'outed' here was runamuck which was purely a defensive move. And now, you. Again because you attacked me from out of the blue, my disagreement was with the FA and you chimed in with personal attacks.

And this crap about 'fucks.' I've used it very sparingly lately and you are trying to make out that I've said it so much you are 'lost' among all the fucks. Is this an attempt at humor or are you just being dishonest?

Yes, the FA's will indeed be giving me a wide berth. Or should I say I will be giving you all a wide berth. Yes, that's more accurate.

I had some fun and games planned for goober's litttle soiree this Sunday in Portland since it's practically in my hometown but fu*k it. Why should I put my ass on the line there, when here, supposedly my home turf, so to speak, there's some anonymous guy with a greasy black crayon redacting my posts?

What's the point if we are going to recreate the authoritarian, heirarchial structure here?

No, I'm not liking the new PC Forum V. I guess it's 'evolved' and I don't fit in any more. Well, that's fine. There's tons of new people here, smart, witty, insightful. The table clothes, I'm sure will be clean, soft and well ironed.

So you all have a real nice time, but don't look for me in Latvia. I've moved to Margaritaville. The air is cleaner there and the federales don't hassle you as much...

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Date: Wed, Mar 14, 2001 at 23:23:29 (GMT)
From: Bazza
Email: None
To: Gerry
Subject: Don't leave on my account!
Message:
Blimey gerry thought you had more spunk than that! I mean leave if you want, but please don't put me up as the big bad bogey man because I simply ain't.

Are you really that miffed over having your jollies cut off or me being a blunt bastard? How many times has it happened before?

Oh well. Enjoy your margaraitas and if I see you in latvia I'll buy you a couple, how's that?

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Date: Thurs, Mar 15, 2001 at 03:09:05 (GMT)
From: gerry
Email: None
To: Bazza
Subject: You flatter yourself
Message:
I guess I don't understand the rules for proper posting and as I have been posting here for what? two, three, years? I don't believe I'm capable of coming to grips with the correct form of posting which wont be censored or deleted without my input or permission. I guess it's just one of my quirks, like not trusting the government or the media, a conspiracy nutter kind of problem, ya know?

Is there meds for this?

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Date: Thurs, Mar 15, 2001 at 03:24:41 (GMT)
From: Bazza
Email: None
To: gerry
Subject: That's more like it
Message:
And I don't really understand the rules either. Just have to suck it and see - throw something out and wait to be corrected. In the end what does it matter? The good stuff always sticks. Did you read the Ken Kelly article I posted? That should cheer you up.

Can't help you with the meds, never been there thankfully. I find Boddingtons cures most ills.

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Date: Thurs, Mar 15, 2001 at 04:26:26 (GMT)
From: gerry
Email: None
To: Bazza
Subject: That's more like it
Message:
And I don't really understand the rules either.

There's a lot of that going around. I used to think it was confined to the neighborhood but the whole city's abuzz with it.

Just have to suck it and see - throw something out and wait to be corrected.

Well, maybe Pat should explain this hyperbole to me, but what exactly are you proposing we 'suck' here?

In the end what does it matter? The good stuff always sticks.

Cut it out Bazza, you're making me breath heavy now, so soon after the 'sucking' ah, discussion.

Did you read the Ken Kelly article I posted? That should cheer you up.

Yes, yes, read it, good stuff, that.

Can't help you with the meds, never been there thankfully. I find Boddingtons cures most ills

You are useless !!! Resign !!!

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Date: Thurs, Mar 15, 2001 at 04:35:44 (GMT)
From: Bazza
Email: None
To: gerry
Subject: Suck it and see
Message:
is I guess a Brit expression. Just means to give something a try and see what the result is.

Resign from what?:)

Hey funny thing is Dep Dog just came in and apologised/recanted his post which started this whole thing! Bastard, bet he did that on purpose just to play you offside.

I got pics to go with that Kelley article, need to scan them and send to JM for the archives.

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Date: Thurs, Mar 15, 2001 at 04:51:49 (GMT)
From: gerry
Email: None
To: Bazza
Subject: Suck it and see
Message:
<Hey funny thing is Dep Dog just came in and apologised/recanted his post which started this whole thing! Bastard, bet he did that on purpose just to play you offside.

yeah, it's amazing what a little cold cash can buy these days, isn't it?

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Date: Wed, Mar 14, 2001 at 17:11:27 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Gerry
Subject: Does *someone* smell a conspiracy a-brewin' ?
Message:
What's the point if we are going to recreate the authoritarian, heirarchial structure here?

Many, many steps between having sometimes-over-anxious, sometimes-erroneous, maybe even sometimes-just-plain-wrong FAs in a forum like this and an 'authoritarian, hierarchial structure'. Many steps.

But here are some things to watch out for:

1) All babes (or, in many cases, young daughters of slightly-older babes) surrendered for inspection and selection at regular EPO management parties, the likes of which lowly rank-and-filers like you, loooser only hear faint whispers about.

2) Regular donations, once solicited for modest operating costs and emergency needs, raised with no specific goal other than to ensure a large 'war chest' and, perhaps, to secure a better loan rate at various unnamed financial institutions (again, none of YOUR business, is it?)

3) Secret deal-brokering between EPO management and the Office of the Greasy Hamster whereby 'we' get the U.S., Australia and the U.K. and He gets Canada, Europe and whatever daily catch he can bring in around the world. One term, of course, is that EPO be allowed to retain the excellent services of Josi Fresco, or whatever his name is, to spruce this place up a bit.

Until then, Ger, I'd say you can keep the fire extinguisher on the wall. Know where it is, of course, but leave it up.

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Date: Wed, Mar 14, 2001 at 17:58:17 (GMT)
From: Gerry
Email: gkl1@techline.com
To: Jim
Subject: Jim, always the shill for the establishment
Message:
Hey, your post was pretty funny actually. You're on a roll and seem to be in good cheer.

No, I don't see a conspiracy as such, just a creeping trend towards censorship and politically correct forum behavior.

I don't know about you, but I find it a bit stultifying. I can't quite countenance censorship from some nameless, faceless 'authority.' I have a bit of a problem with 'authority' anyway.

Besides, I've tons of work to do around this place and now that the weather is OK I want to be outside working in my gardens and new greenhouse. I've got 40 post holes to dig by hand for a new fence, and I may just go ahead a put on the house addition I've designed and planned (if the banks cooperate.)

All good things must end. There is a season...etc. Thanks for your brain stimulating challenges and (usually) good humor. I've posted my email if anyone wants to contact me. However, I'm switching servers at the end of the month.

Good luck to you Jim and everyone. Keep up the good fight.

Jai Satchitanand to all.

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Date: Wed, Mar 14, 2001 at 18:34:46 (GMT)
From: Thelma the Fat Fag
Email: None
To: Gerry
Subject: For crying in a bucket of compost, Gerry
Message:
You can't leave. You were the one who welcomed me. You were the one that I first fell in love with. How the hell is a libertarian anarchist supposed to survive with all the EPO church ladies if I don't have someone to formulate juicy conspiracy theories with?
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Date: Wed, Mar 14, 2001 at 20:20:30 (GMT)
From: Selene
Email: None
To: Thelma the Fat Fag
Subject: me too GeRrY - you are a favorite
Message:
Enjoy the good weather - though you'll be back. It's awesome here too, 70s and 80s but scary as it's a sign of things to come.
But still, i've gotten off my butt and am biking and walking, god you should hear me I sound like I'm going to drop dead after a few minutes!
The quote Joe uses, 'the best revenge is living well' is also one of my favorite though I heard it as The Best Revenge is Success.
either way, there is a lot of life to live now that we are free of cult crap. The fuller our lives the more M has lost power. Love ya.
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Date: Wed, Mar 14, 2001 at 15:58:08 (GMT)
From: Gerry
Email: None
To: all
Subject: I meant EPO *church* ladies. Sorry. (NT)
Message:
sheesh
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Date: Wed, Mar 14, 2001 at 04:42:02 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: gerry
Subject: Gerry's right and you can all go fuck right off!
Message:
Sorry, I just wanted to say that.

Actually, Gerry's usually right about everything (except for how the world works). This time, no exception. But 'fuck off'? Did I say that?

How does one know if one's an FA anyway? Is it like that Mickey Rourke / De Niro flick, 'Angel Heart'? 'Angel Heart? Why don't you know, YOU're Angel Heart!'? That was one mighty cool moment in my film history memory banks.

Gerry, maybe YOU are the FA after all? I mean how would you know anyway? They look like regular people. Just because you're an FA doesn't mean you're necessarily rich or smart or even good looking. Anyone can be an FA. So maybe it's you after all in which case, I'd say, quit beating yourself up so much, huh?

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Date: Tues, Mar 13, 2001 at 23:44:53 (GMT)
From: Dermot
Email: None
To: Bazza
Subject: Sound advice Pat, er Thelma
Message:
Of course it can be a thankless task .....and no one wants to criticise someone for when they are performing a task demanding constant work and discrimination. And of course any particular deletion has its merits and demerits...

However , whomver has the role of FA makes a judgement to cut or not but that judgement is not just for his or her own benefit it's for the benefit of ALL forum readers and posters.

You tell Gerry to grow up .....that was exactly my point about NOT

deleting. We are not children who need some supervisory protection. As I said ...we can CHOOSE and DISCRIMINATE . If it's infantile unfunny crap or a superb post....can't we make up our own minds? Just asking....

Dermot

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Date: Wed, Mar 14, 2001 at 00:06:03 (GMT)
From: Dermot
Email: None
To: Dermot
Subject: Tired..pls excuse sloppy English above..g'night nt
Message:
zz
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Date: Tues, Mar 13, 2001 at 23:44:48 (GMT)
From: Pat Conlon
Email: None
To: Bazza
Subject: Thanks for sticking up for the FA, Bazza
Message:
Like you, it is a job I would not do and I have completely come to understand the necessity of protecting their identities.

BUT, we shouldn't cut the FAs too much slack, even if it is unpaid ''service'' it is after all an undemocratic role and the only way that we can control rampant censorship is to say when we think the FA has erred.

I would prefer that the FA wait just a little while to get some feedback before pulling out the scissors. Just a few checks and balances.

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Date: Tues, Mar 13, 2001 at 17:40:52 (GMT)
From: Don Wilson
Email: don@megadome.com.au
To: Everyone
Subject: Everything and Nothing
Message:
I recieved knowledge in 1972. I went looking for the answer that I knew was within me. When I was much younger I was amazed by my existance and the existance of the universe. I still am!
I don't give money to Maharaji or Elan Vital. I attend events mostly without paying much. I enjoy practicing when I do. Maharaji is my teacher.
As for drinking , drugs and sex well didn't we all do that and some still do. Humans cannot be fitted into the saint box, we are human not saints and you all know what humans are like. You are one of them.
Maharaji is also a human being. He has all that we have, he went through pubity like all of us. So he had affairs - have you???
So he likes to drink - do you? I like to drink, so what Don't ya get it, he is human.
He is not a alien. He is not GOD or a GOD.
(And GOD by the way is just a concept: Don't believe me? If you where never taught about GOD and the concept didn't exist in your culture - What question would you ask?? Who and what am I How come I exist Where did the universe come from etc. get it. Its about YOU not a GOD concept!!!!!)
He also showed be something within that I enjoy. All the shit that ever happened to me came from people other than Maharaji.
I have read all the posts and messages and all it tells me is that Maharaji is just like me. What am I?? Human? Not far remove from Neanderthal and still evolving.
Maharaji doesn't give a shit about what you do in your private life. So why do all of you have this unhealthy obsession with his private life. I know that he has made some big mistakes/ errors of judgement, hello!, who hasn't? So get over it.
If you like knowledge fine I you don't like Knowledge fine I really don't care.
Its your life. Its YOUR existance MOVE ON and ENJOY IT while it lasts. Reincarnation?? Another concept???


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Date: Wed, Mar 14, 2001 at 11:53:58 (GMT)
From: AJW
Email: None
To: Don Wilson
Subject: A question Don.
Message:
Have you been posting here under different names?

Anth the Fred

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Date: Wed, Mar 14, 2001 at 10:35:41 (GMT)
From: wolfi
Email: wolfgang.oed@stadt.erlangen.de
To: everyone
Subject: just to say thanks to you all
Message:
I'm new on the scene. I only want to give it a try to see how I can sent my messages from Germany.

I'will tell more in my terrible english
wolfi

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Date: Wed, Mar 14, 2001 at 18:29:25 (GMT)
From: Pat Conlon
Email: None
To: wolfi
Subject: Hi Wolfi,
Message:
I can't wait to read your ''terrible english'' because I'm sure we will still hear the truth coming through. Welcome!
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Date: Wed, Mar 14, 2001 at 03:02:55 (GMT)
From: Nigel
Email: nigel@redcrow.demon.co.uk
To: Don Wilson
Subject: Oh Gawd - here we go again...
Message:
I recieved knowledge in 1972. I went looking for the answer that I knew was within me. When I was much younger I was amazed by my existance and the existance of the universe. I still am!

Well you could start by learning to spell it, if it fascinates you that much: 'existence', ok? Sorry to be picky, but if you're going to carry on the fascination thing, y'know, well you can pick up tips from wherever. All part of the rich jumble sale that is His Unbelievable Lila.

I don't give money to Maharaji or Elan Vital. I attend events mostly without paying much. I enjoy practicing when I do.

That's nice. I'm sure you must be one of his favourites, Don, no donations - just the affection. Expect the call any day now.

Maharaji is my teacher.

Again, that's nice. So what, to date, has the Teacher of the Universe taught you about the existance of the universe? Just one example?

As for drinking , drugs and sex well didn't we all do that and some still do. Humans cannot be fitted into the saint box, we are human not saints and you all know what humans are like. You are one of them.

True, but what's your point?

Maharaji is also a human being. He has all that we have, he went through pubity like all of us. So he had affairs - have you???
So he likes to drink - do you? I like to drink, so what Don't ya get it, he is human.

Yes. But does he?

He is not a alien. He is not GOD or a GOD.

So why did he claim to be GOD? Come with more power than ever before? Greatest incarnation to ever stride the planet in baggy yellow trousers?

(And GOD by the way is just a concept: Don't believe me? If you where never taught about GOD and the concept didn't exist in your culture - What question would you ask?? Who and what am I How come I exist Where did the universe come from etc. get it. Its about YOU not a GOD concept!!!!!)

Are you feeling quite ok?

He also showed be something within that I enjoy. All the shit that ever happened to me came from people other than Maharaji.

'showed be something within' is also a concept. Did he show you something personally? Would the enjoyable thing be as enjoyable regardless who showed you? I mean without the Master/student bullshit? Have you started to think about all this? Why do you sound so angry? Why are you here?

I have read all the posts and messages and all it tells me is that Maharaji is just like me. What am I?? Human? Not far remove from Neanderthal and still evolving.

Evolution doesn't work like that, ie. ongoing within a lifetime. Again: what's your point?

Maharaji doesn't give a shit about what you do in your private life. So why do all of you have this unhealthy obsession with his private life. I know that he has made some big mistakes/ errors of judgement, hello!, who hasn't? So get over it.

Margie had strict rules about what his DEVOTEES were allowed to do in their private lives. You've been around since 1972. Amnesia? And his private life proves him a hypocrite.

If you like knowledge fine I you don't like Knowledge fine I really don't care.

If you cared so little then why are you reading? Why are you typing?

Its your life. Its YOUR existance MOVE ON and ENJOY IT while it lasts. Reincarnation?? Another concept???

Reincarnation is bullshit. Why mention it? (And it's spelled 'existence', ok..?) We moved on and are enjoing. Are you?

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Date: Tues, Mar 13, 2001 at 22:22:01 (GMT)
From: Francesca
Email: None
To: Don Wilson
Subject: Best wishes, nonetheless n/t
Message:
best wishes
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Date: Tues, Mar 13, 2001 at 22:16:43 (GMT)
From: Francesca
Email: None
To: Don Wilson
Subject: Yawwwwn. Get a clue
Message:
If you read even 1/10 of the posts on this board, you would see that you are pissing in the wind. After the abusive nonsense we put up with, I'll be succinct. Re the post above, you can stuff it.

Knowledge doesn't belong to M. He merely passed it along to you. Maybe you should do a little moving along yourself!

Whoopie ty yi yo
get along little doggie
it's your misfortune
and none of my own ....

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Date: Tues, Mar 13, 2001 at 22:16:12 (GMT)
From: moldy warp
Email: None
To: Don Wilson
Subject: private life ?
Message:
and M not giving a shit for what we do. I'm sorry to disagree with you, but I would have thought any compassionate and genuine spiritual teacher (even if only human and not God) ought to give a shit what his followers do in their so-called private lives, in case any activities are hindering them on the spiritual path they are following under his guidance. This is one of the reasons I left M and K - precisely because K seemed to have no relationship to what people actually did, or how they behaved - this was all part of 'the world' and nothing to do (supposedly) with 'ones own experience'.The contrast between public and private life is interesting. I suggest that the more evolved human would display the same standards of behaviour in both...no teacher who talks about inner joy and simplicity and love as the goals in life will convince me if their private life seems to display a taste for wealth, affairs, etc -a sign of looking for satisfaction in 'the wrong places' I would have thought...Not a very good role model for his 'students'. BTW Us exes are MOVING ON and ENJOYING IT -that's wot we are doing on this wonderful forum. BTW too -nothing personal meant by above -I might have said just wot you said a few years ago, yours Moldy
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Date: Tues, Mar 13, 2001 at 21:43:24 (GMT)
From: cq
Email: None
To: Don Wilson
Subject: Everything and Nothing
Message:
Don,

As someone who allowed the Maha to dictate for nearly three years - a short time, compared to some premies - how to live my OWN life, I think it's only fair that I should look at HIS life and judge him accordingly.

If he is not GOD or a GOD (to quote you) then how come he spent nearly a decade or more of his life trying to convince people like you and me that he WAS God incarnate? (and if you really did receive 'knowledge' in the early 70s you'll know for sure that he DID claim to be 'that Superior Power in Person' - upper case capitals and all).

Don't get me wrong, Don, - I personally don't feel ill-will towards you for still respecting Maharaji, though there are some exes for whom every premie is somehow a threat to their 'ex-ness'. It's taken quite a while, but I think I'm getting out of that phase myself, nonetheless I'm still somewhat amazed that you're trying to tell all exes who post here to 'get over it'. Well, that's what posting here is all about - getting over it. It just takes time to come to terms with the enormity of what was once our belief.

Don't forget - many of us dedicated our lives to that man, thinking he was (as he claimed to be) God incarnate.

You can't let someone use you like that without wanting to expose them for the charlatan they are - and charlatan is exactly what Maharaji has revealed himself to be ever since he denied his past ever happened.

He DID claim to be the Saviour. He now denies that he ever claimed that. What more reason do YOU need to distrust such a con-artist?

That you still respect him after he's so obviously lied about his past - what do you think that tells people about you ?

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Date: Tues, Mar 13, 2001 at 21:05:07 (GMT)
From: Gregg
Email: None
To: Don Wilson
Subject: Nothing
Message:
The question you posed was, 'Why the concern with Maharaji's personal life?' a question with many answers. Here's mine, and it has to do with your contention that M is a 'teacher' who 'revealed Knowledge' to you.

Many of us here believe we mistakenly attributed whatever experiences we had to the Divine and Omniscient Guru, when, in fact, they had nothing to do with Prem Pal Rawat, and a lot to do with our willingness to have these experiences.

The fact that M does not behave anything like a messenger of the Divine is significant. Excessive drinking and extramarital affairs are not necessarily grounds for condemnation, although they've got to be seen as a warning sign in someone who claims to be able to deliver Inner Peace.

Use your God-given gift of discrimination when evaluating a guru. As you said, we all make mistakes. Clinging to a guru out of habit is a mistake.

But the bullying and verbal abuse? I'm sorry, but you'd have to be pretty deluded to think that this is acceptable behavior for a spiritual teacher. Or anyone else, for that matter.

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Date: Tues, Mar 13, 2001 at 21:35:49 (GMT)
From: G
Email: None
To: Gregg
Subject: bullying and verbal abuse
Message:
He has done a lot of bullying and verbal abuse in public, as we all know since we were/are his victims. That's not his 'private life'. Seeing that this pattern of behavior extends to his private life takes away the excuse that he was/is doing it for own own good. Confirming that he's screwed up helps to strip away the excuses. Also, when a guy portrays himself as some sort of saint, which he does, his private life is relevant.
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Date: Tues, Mar 13, 2001 at 20:53:50 (GMT)
From: Bin Liner
Email: None
To: Don Wilson
Subject: Everything and Nothing
Message:
...you say' M is my teacher ' .

Seems to me the only thing he's taught you is the ability to turn a blind eye to hypocrisy on such an awesome scale that the only response of evolving humans is to laugh & weep at the same time.

You got K in 72 you say.

Where were you for the next 10 yrs ?

In a cave maybe ?

Wake up pal : apply a few unfamiliar human concepts to your
amazement at existence.

Like : moral responsibility , & integrity .

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Date: Tues, Mar 13, 2001 at 20:51:17 (GMT)
From: Cynthia
Email: None
To: Don Wilson
Subject: Everything and Nothing
Message:
Hello Don Wilson,

It's quite easy to come here, even post your real name, but it's quite difficult to reveal personal details of one's involvement in the cult.

You receive knowledge in 1972 you said.

What was the extent of your involvement with Maharaji? DId you ever join an ashram? Did you know that Maharaji claimed to be the Supreme Lord of the Universe?

If so, (and it's probable you knew this since 1972 was your entrance date), how do you explain Maharaji's ''revisionism?''

We, as ex-premies know he is human. Some like me now believe he is much less than human. After all, how many other such humans have you personally devoted your life to, lock, stock, and barrel, and they then become filthy rich over your work, do you, Don know?

How many ''humans'' do you know who harbor(ed) a known pedophile? That's Jagdeo, of course.

You are in a personality worship cult, Don Wilson. Whether or not you decide to notice that, you certainly have some interest in reading here.

I suggest you read the website. Render your opinion when you are able to sincerely QUESTION Maharaji, person to person. (But don't hold your breath waiting!)

Tell us some more.

Cynthia

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Date: Tues, Mar 13, 2001 at 20:47:14 (GMT)
From: Patrick (formerly Anon)
Email: None
To: Don Wilson
Subject: Everything and Nothing
Message:
Maharaji doesn't give a shit about what you do in your private life.

So why all the rules? such as... no sex, no relationships, no meat, no eggs, no this, no that , do service, satsang, meditation, do this , don't do that... that sounds like he was very keen to change what people did in their 'private' lives.

All the shit that ever happened to me came from people other than Maharaji.

A lot of the shit that happened to me came from Maharaji via other people.

I know that he has made some big mistakes/ errors of judgement, hello!, who hasn't? So get over it.

That's just what people are doing by expressing their supressed misgivings and fears here - they are 'getting over it'.


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Date: Tues, Mar 13, 2001 at 19:51:00 (GMT)
From: Pat Conlon
Email: None
To: Don Wilson
Subject: Hi Don, thanks for posting under your real name
Message:
Some of the exes here don't practice Knowledge anymore. I do and I enjoy it. I also think that it has the potential to be of value to others. In fact it is an ancient and tried and trusted method for achieving peace and feeling joy within.

THAT IS WHY MAHARAJI IS A FRAUD!

Knowledge has traditionally been associated with living a good, kind and honest life, loving others, being forgiving and just generally behaving like a nice human being.

Mr Rawat has behaved dishonorably, is dysfunctional, bullying, lying, stealling cheat and is cold, cruel and selfish.

But the biggest lie is that you need a teacher or a master. You do not. The Master scam is a money-making business. All he needed to do was give us Knowledge and then say Bye-Bye and have fun. But no he has turned Knowledge into a means of making money by making people believe that they need a teacher.

The teacher is already in us. Just as the peace and the joy are already within us.

Just by calling himself a Master he is lying and conning us. The techniques are readily availble. I did them for two years before I met the tetlevangelist from Dehra Dun and have been enjoying them for 30 years.

Before going into all the other stuf about Rawat, the first thing to remember is that he lied from the beginning by setting himself up as a Master.

THERE IS NO NEED FOR A MASTER!

IT IS JUST A MONEY_MAKING SCAM!

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Date: Wed, Mar 14, 2001 at 01:03:05 (GMT)
From: michael donner
Email: None
To: Pat Conlon
Subject: Hi Don, thanks for posting under your real name
Message:
hi don, i just wanted to add my voice to the statements of pat conlon. seems to me that practicing some good technology to go within and experience so of our essense is awfully necessary for me. wherein lies the contradiction that makes m such a looser. he always tries to draw our attention out towards him. oh, not with his words, with his actions and all that he sets up around him.

you say that you go to programs so you must notice this contradiction...or at least notice how this external show becomes a distraction for others at the program...as you might be the exception.

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Date: Wed, Mar 14, 2001 at 01:41:07 (GMT)
From: Pat Conlon
Email: None
To: michael donner
Subject: Michael Donner, are you thinking what I am?
Message:
you said; ''...practicing some good technology to go within and experience so of our essense is awfully necessary for me. wherein lies the contradiction that makes m such a looser.''

Exactly! A responsible meditation teacher would NOT attract attention to himself. He is not interested in teaching meditation. He is only interested in teaching bhakti juju (guru worship/contact high.) This can only work when the teacher and student are EQUALS and love and trust and respect one another.

Not only that he is NOT using the bhakti juju responsibly either and is casting his spell only to MAKE MONEY.

He's being very naughty. How naughty was he Michael? Just kidding.

I hope you will pick a nick-name so we don't have to call you Michael Donner every time. (NB Michael Dettmers and Michael Finch - the other two archangels.)

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Date: Wed, Mar 14, 2001 at 03:44:27 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Pat Conlon
Subject: Need a nickname? How about 'Joan'? (nt) :)
Message:
gggggg
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Date: Wed, Mar 14, 2001 at 09:39:40 (GMT)
From: Thelma
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Need a nickname? How about 'Joan'?
Message:
Joan could be your nasty alter ego. Joan the vicious church lady like Victoria Bitter. Damn pity that name's taken. Victoria Bitter the industrial strength church lady who would probably kill to defend her Master.

But do tell me if there's a hidden joke that I didn't get. I don't always get your jokes/kaons, oh Zen doshi.

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Date: Wed, Mar 14, 2001 at 17:29:28 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Thelma
Subject: Apter, silly! (nt)
Message:
fffff
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Date: Tues, Mar 13, 2001 at 19:38:23 (GMT)
From: G
Email: None
To: Don Wilson
Subject: You give money
Message:
'I don't give money to Maharaji or Elan Vital. I attend events mostly without paying much.'

'mostly without paying much' means that you do give money to Elan Vital, and therefore to 'Maharaji'.

'As for drinking, drugs and sex well didn't we all do that and some still do.'

Sure but I'm not an alcoholic claiming to be a saint. I haven't sexually abused women who trusted in me as their 'Master'. I didn't hypocritically tell other people to abstain from sex and drugs.

'All the shit that ever happened to me came from people other than Maharaji.'

A lot of the shit that happened to me came from haharaji. I lived in his ashrams because he told me to do so. Tell me something, did you ever live in one of his ashrams?

'Maharaji doesn't give a shit about what you do in your private life.'

Bullshit.

'So why do all of you have this unhealthy obsession with his private life.'

No, we are exposing him for the fraud that he is, that's whats happening here.

'MOVE ON' is simply cult code for 'DON'T OPPOSE HIM.' Sorry, it doesn't work.

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Date: Tues, Mar 13, 2001 at 17:56:41 (GMT)
From: Joe
Email: None
To: Don Wilson
Subject: Hi Don
Message:
Hey Don, did you ever live in Chicago? Your name sounds very familiar to me.

Just wondered. You say that Maharaji has made big mistakes. What are you talking about, specifically? Do you recall Maharaji ever admitting that? If so, what specific mistakes did he say he made? Has he every apologized to people who were the victims, even if unintended, of his mistakes?

For example, was the ashram a mistake? Was telling people to surrender the reigns of their lives to him a mistake? Was telling us that we didn't have any ties to our families a mistake? How about telling us that getting married was equivalent to blowing your brains out with dynamite? Was that a mistake? How about when he told us we would go to hell if we didn't devote our lives to him? And, oh, yeah, how about claiming to be the 'Superior power in person' if he is 'just like you,' (assuming you are NOT the 'superior power in person.)

And if it doesn't matter that Maharaji is an alcoholic, takes drugs, has sex with his devotees, etc., why does he try so hard to keep it a secret? And if it doesn't matter, why did he tell us to be poor and celibate? Can you explain? Has HE ever explained? Is that yet another mistake we should just overlook because he's human? Would you let any other adult human get away with that? Would you let your kids get away with that?

Don, I'm looking forward to your replies.

Joe

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Date: Tues, Mar 13, 2001 at 17:43:19 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Don Wilson
Subject: Oh no! You didn't say 'Move on', did you? (nt)
Message:
rrrr
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Date: Tues, Mar 13, 2001 at 17:46:13 (GMT)
From: Don
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Oh no! You didn't say 'Move on', did you? (nt)
Message:
big smile :)
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Date: Tues, Mar 13, 2001 at 15:49:27 (GMT)
From: Susan
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: What would have been in Dr. K. notes ......
Message:
when Michael Dettmers posted about Rawat's visits to the shrink to the stars, I was fascinated. Why? I suppose one of the things that I am most interested in reading about in the ex PAM posts is anything that sort of paints a three dimensional picture of Rawat the human. I mean, what makes a cult leader tick?

I wish we could read those notes...

But in lieu of that....

From reading posts here this is the picture that is emerging for me.

One thing I read into the posts is a contradictory picture of a deeply insecure, easily threatened megalomaniac. It sounds also like he has an amazing talent for 'politics'...like he exploits people's fears and weaknesses with precision. I was stunned by the idea of the 16 year old guru manipulating to make Bhole Ji vulnerable and thus more likely to come to his side. Michael Dettmers also said once that Rawat was capable of amazing power brokering at a young age. I was stunned that he would remind those around him how easily they could be replaced ( by us, the unwashed masses ) if they did not toe the line. It sounds like the res, and IHQ were incredible fear based places, and that the fear was engendered at the top.

Anyway, anyone have any insights on the topic of what makes him tick? Any more stories from those who were there to illustrate the manipulations that went on ( and probably still do )

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Date: Tues, Mar 13, 2001 at 17:31:03 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Susan
Subject: No one cares, girl. Get it?
Message:
No, seriously, Susan this AND your Sopranos post were right on (Canadians still say that, as in 'right on!' -- they even have a funny way of saying it, like 'right OOnn').

Those notes? Yes, those notes!

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Date: Tues, Mar 13, 2001 at 18:24:46 (GMT)
From: Susan
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: No one cares, girl. Get it? LOL
Message:
Jim, I was reminded of your great Maharaji Party post and how I read it, laughed, and didn't stop to say how much I liked it, and then you were so funny as to say...hey guys...um...don't you like this?

Thanks! Maybe if you still have it you might report that for the new readers...it was great.

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Date: Tues, Mar 13, 2001 at 16:59:39 (GMT)
From: Gregg
Email: None
To: Susan
Subject: I have no idea, but...
Message:
...I'm fascinated reading about what he is really like, years later. 95% of the premies had no idea what GMJ was really like. Conveniently for him, this allowed us to project our own needs on him. We needed a God-man, thus he was one, for us.

The man behind the curtain smoked, drank, and bullied those around him. Perhaps he had no real friends and was emotionally stunted in ways; but being worshipped by thousands must have compensated for this to some extent.

Many people are finally impenetrable. It seems impossible to truly understand their inner life. GMJ seems like one of these; as well at Dettmers et al have gotten to know him, they don't seem to know how he really felt about being Guru to thousands.

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Date: Tues, Mar 13, 2001 at 15:37:20 (GMT)
From: Mercedes
Email: None
To: Posty
Subject: Newcommer
Message:
Hi Posty, I just discovered your welcome, if feels good to be acknowledged even though I am no big shot.
I find a lot of support and relief reading the forum. And I agree that the more honest people are the better for everybody.
Cheers...
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Date: Wed, Mar 14, 2001 at 03:51:43 (GMT)
From: salam
Email: None
To: Mercedes
Subject: Nice to see to
Message:
So what do you know? Just kidding.

But then what have you been up to lately :) ?

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Date: Wed, Mar 14, 2001 at 02:05:08 (GMT)
From: Roy
Email: None
To: Mercedes
Subject: I salute your honesty and integrity ! nt
Message:
z
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Date: Wed, Mar 14, 2001 at 02:03:34 (GMT)
From: Mercedes
Email: None
To: all
Subject: Thank you all
Message:
Thank you for the welcome, and yes Pat I know you said hello before.
Hope to keep on reading and healing.
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Date: Tues, Mar 13, 2001 at 22:19:04 (GMT)
From: Francesca
Email: None
To: Mercedes
Subject: Greetings and welcome
Message:
from another little shot.

Francesca

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Date: Tues, Mar 13, 2001 at 21:17:43 (GMT)
From: Dermot
Email: None
To: Mercedes
Subject: Hi there Mercedes..
Message:
Welcome .....from one newbie to another. Jeeze , loads of new people turning up all of a sudden. such a lila hahaa.
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Date: Tues, Mar 13, 2001 at 19:29:24 (GMT)
From: Pat Conlon
Email: None
To: Mercedes
Subject: I said HI before, Mercedes, but I'll say it again
Message:
Welcome and I hope you enjoy all these wonderful people here as much as I do.
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Date: Tues, Mar 13, 2001 at 16:03:58 (GMT)
From: Robyn
Email: None
To: Mercedes
Subject: Newcommer
Message:
Dear Mercedes,
Hi! This is excellent, so many new comers. I must say I enjoyed the intimate feel of the forum when I first arrived 3 or 4 years ago but this is really what it is all about and I think it is great. Welcome. :)
Love,
Robyn
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Date: Tues, Mar 13, 2001 at 16:00:35 (GMT)
From: Susan
Email: None
To: Mercedes
Subject: welcome Mercedes!
Message:
Great to have another voice!

Susan

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Date: Tues, Mar 13, 2001 at 16:24:02 (GMT)
From: Cynthia
Email: None
To: Mercedes
Subject: Welcome to Forum5...
Message:
It's good to see new folks coming on board.
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Date: Tues, Mar 13, 2001 at 17:22:47 (GMT)
From: Postie
Email: post@rmi.net
To: Mercedes
Subject: Mercedes - are you who I think you are?
Message:
I think I know who you are but don't want tro speculate online. Send me an email if you wish.

Postie

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Date: Tues, Mar 13, 2001 at 19:35:40 (GMT)
From: Pat Conlon
Email: None
To: Postie
Subject: Postie - are you who I think you are?
Message:
Just kidding. You know that I think you are wonderful even if your parents did make a terrible mistake in labelling you with such an ugly name as Postie. It could have been worse - Post Toastie? I love roasting Post Toasties. Well, I guess we're all Post Toasties since we were all once Toasties at the Locust Toes.

With love from Thelma,

who's parents made a big mistake calling her that - since she really does have balls.

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Date: Tues, Mar 13, 2001 at 11:16:12 (GMT)
From: Aussi Ji
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: It's time to reveal my true identity
Message:
G'day all,

Yes I think the time has come.This will make CatWeazels' job a lot easier.As I said earlier I had a good reason to keep my alias.That reason is not so important anymore.Besides there has been a lot said about having alias's and new people interested in the EPO site.If having an alias might put newcomers off,then it is time to 'come out'
My name is Tony Walker and from now on I will post as Tony Ji ( I have come to like the Ji on the end of my name.
If anyone from Aussieland remembers me and would like to have a yarn please feel free to do so.

Cheers Tony Ji ( formerly Aussi Ji) may he rest in peace

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Date: Thurs, Mar 15, 2001 at 02:30:14 (GMT)
From: Richard
Email: None
To: Aussi Ji
Subject: G'day Tony Ji
Message:
Thanks for your welcome above for my coming out party. It's amazing how the critical mass has tipped and we're losing the masks.

R

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Date: Wed, Mar 14, 2001 at 10:33:15 (GMT)
From: sivan
Email: sivan28@yahoo.com
To: Aussi Ji
Subject: luv AJ- do u have to kill him off,Tony? (NT)
Message:
I've grown used to the big bugger!
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Date: Thurs, Mar 15, 2001 at 02:40:10 (GMT)
From: Tony Walker
Email: None
To: sivan
Subject: Thanks gorgeous.nt
Message:
nt
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Date: Wed, Mar 14, 2001 at 03:48:59 (GMT)
From: salam
Email: None
To: Aussi Ji
Subject: Man you blew it
Message:
I was hopping that you did not do it. We are not gonna get inside information this way. CW is a sucker, why did you fall for it.
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Date: Wed, Mar 14, 2001 at 08:42:43 (GMT)
From: Tony Walker
Email: parisw@ozemail.com.au
To: salam
Subject: This had nothing to do with Catweasel
Message:
G,day Salam,
No mate,this had absolutely nothing to do with Catwesel at all.
My supply lines to info has been cut off.So there was no point going on under an alias.That was the only reason for keeping up the alias in the first place.People like Catweasel don't bother me in the least.So,no I did'nt blow it.Life and circumstances change ,but life goes on.

Cheers Salam
Tony.

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Date: Wed, Mar 14, 2001 at 11:37:35 (GMT)
From: salam
Email: salam_au@iprimus.com.au
To: Tony Walker
Subject: So what happened me mate?
Message:
Are we up the creek without paddles or what?

Well I was invited today for a video transmission about Amaroo, but did not go, too bloody far. Looks like the water supply system has been finalised. They have put the big gate on. Brought in extra toilets and few other infrastructures. The assumption is that 4500 are coming, do not know from where, but it looks like some people do not want to pay the exuberent costs of the accommodation so they are booking in hotels in Ipswich. Some are starting to look at Brisbane. Fuck it. 1200 dollers to go and listen to some crap so the cunt can pay for his plane, boat and other financial mishaps, then send his kids on a shopping spree.

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Date: Thurs, Mar 15, 2001 at 02:44:10 (GMT)
From: Tony Walker
Email: None
To: salam
Subject: So what happened me mate?
Message:
G'day Salam,
Yes we are up the creek without a paddle as far as info goes.My supply lines were cut off big time.

Cheers matey Tony

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Date: Wed, Mar 14, 2001 at 11:32:35 (GMT)
From: CW
Email: None
To: Tony Walker
Subject: This had nothing to do with Catweasel
Message:
Nahh Riiiight! yeah F**king oath! But do you really exist?Little combo of names fascinates me little buddy Tony Who? ---- Walker?
Funny thing is I reckon I know who you really are. Now if you dropped that here ,wow then I'd be impressed! OK?
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Date: Wed, Mar 14, 2001 at 06:58:15 (GMT)
From: Catweasel
Email: None
To: salam
Subject: Man you blew it
Message:
Kool eh Salam? Easee Peasee. Up here for thinking and down there for dancing. I keep telling you , you'll have to come in with me , you gorgeous Arab boy!
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Date: Wed, Mar 14, 2001 at 11:20:10 (GMT)
From: salam
Email: None
To: Catweasel
Subject: ah you poofta
Message:
go away from me.
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Date: Wed, Mar 14, 2001 at 11:36:53 (GMT)
From: Victoria Bitter
Email: CW
To: salam
Subject: ah you poofta
Message:
You could ride in on my two humps? Sitting upright in the saddle! Holding your joy stick. And no-one would notice.....
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Date: Wed, Mar 14, 2001 at 08:47:56 (GMT)
From: Tony Walker
Email: None
To: Catweasel
Subject: Mate,don't flatter youself
Message:
you had absolutely nothing to do with my decision.Mat,you don't even exist.
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Date: Wed, Mar 14, 2001 at 03:30:36 (GMT)
From: Peter Howie
Email: None
To: Aussi Ji
Subject: It's time to reveal my true identity
Message:
Hi there Tony,

I'm glad you've been able to take up your own name here. CW is a real pain and only gets power/effect from paying attention to him and he knows it.

Hope life is going OK for you

Cheers

Peter Howie
Flooded in Brisbane, Australia

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Date: Wed, Mar 14, 2001 at 06:54:54 (GMT)
From: cw
Email: None
To: Peter Howie
Subject: It's time to reveal my true identity
Message:
Look who is talking about being a pain. Peter when are you ever going to remember what a hard time you gave ME you sanctimonius twerp! Some things just never change eh?You were such a GOOD ashcan P
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Date: Thurs, Mar 15, 2001 at 04:01:18 (GMT)
From: Peter Howie
Email: None
To: cw
Subject: It's time to reveal my true identity
Message:
Well CW, I was a real pain to many - I'll admit it. Its what makes me reluctant to post too much here - other wise it would be the same stuff (preaching/teaching)with a different content.

Anyway I clearly gave you the irits....so... much as I hate it, apols for that. I imagine I did my best to make you feel that I was better than you and you should do more of what I was doing - ashcan stuff etc. I probably said that when people meditated and devoted themselves as you should have been, then life would be good (like it generally wasn't for me). I also imagine that you paid absolutely no real attention to anything I said and thought 'what a know-it-all arsehole', or something similar.

Part of the problem regarding my contrition is that I haven't worked out who you are.

Cheers

Peter Howie

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Date: Thurs, Mar 15, 2001 at 11:51:11 (GMT)
From: Cw
Email: None
To: Peter Howie
Subject: It's time to reveal my true identity
Message:
Think of the wildest character not from the jungle. Long hours. Steetwise - no not Dave. You keep thinking and you'll remember.
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Date: Tues, Mar 13, 2001 at 21:36:02 (GMT)
From: Charles Sprague
Email: bctanda@hotmail.com
To: Aussi Ji
Subject: Welcome out into the sunshine, Tony Ji (nt)
Message:
a
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Date: Tues, Mar 13, 2001 at 19:19:31 (GMT)
From: Pat Conlon
Email: None
To: Aussi Ji
Subject: Tony Ji, you are my twin. I love you bro
Message:
Thank you, thank you thank you.

''There is nothing to fear but fear itself.''

I went through hell posting under my real name. First I felt proud then I thought I'd made a terrible mistake because I know there are Catweasles in every town who could come and bludgeon me like they did to Pat Halley.

Now, I know, that it is just the same as facing up to bullies in school. I had to do that a lot as a little faggot. If you buy into their fear they have won. It is the bullies' fear that is like an infectious disease. Don't buy into fear and they no longer have any power over you.

And that goes in spades for the ultimate fucking Hindu avatar voodoo bully from Malibu!

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Date: Tues, Mar 13, 2001 at 16:12:38 (GMT)
From: Brian Smith
Email: None
To: Aussi Ji
Subject: Thanks for the endorsement, Tony Ji
Message:
You are setting a good example by coming out from under an alias,
(no pun intended Aussi Ji) I have always thought that if I truly believe in what I am are doing then it deserves my true name.

Posting under our real names gives what we are doing here much more power and credibility, I mean would the posts of Donner, or Dettmers have had as much impact had they been masked behind some alias?

Thanks for jumping in all the way and committing to the truth, the same principle applies not to just the Pam's but to all of us who reveal our true identities. Every one who comes forth with their real names adds credibility and integrity to what we are doing here.

Myself I am far better off for outing myself publicly. In doing so, I no longer habor false pretenses about my involvement with the cult, I severed the umbilical cord by posting my true identity and it has been a big step in recovering my freedom.

When I was a practicing premie, I did not use an alias, I did so with wild abandon, without shame and at tremendous loss of family and friends.

I see no reason to use an alias now when I am trying to set the record straight.

Thanks Tony Walker for posting out, it is a pleasure to know you and I commend you for taking this courageous step.

Brian Smith

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Date: Tues, Mar 13, 2001 at 20:03:33 (GMT)
From: Tony walker
Email: None
To: Brian Smith
Subject: Thank You Brian. nt
Message:
nt
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Date: Tues, Mar 13, 2001 at 11:18:22 (GMT)
From: Tony Ji
Email: parisw@ozemail.com.au
To: Aussi Ji
Subject: Farewell Aussi Ji. RIP nt
Message:
nt
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Date: Tues, Mar 13, 2001 at 16:01:26 (GMT)
From: Susan
Email: None
To: Tony Ji
Subject: Gday Tony Ji ( feels good huh?) nt
Message:
nt
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Date: Tues, Mar 13, 2001 at 20:05:54 (GMT)
From: Tony Walker
Email: None
To: Susan
Subject: Thank You Susan..Yep sure does. nt
Message:
nt
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Date: Tues, Mar 13, 2001 at 12:33:16 (GMT)
From: Dermot
Email: None
To: Tony Ji
Subject: Farewell Aussi Ji....hi tony ji nt
Message:
zz
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Date: Tues, Mar 13, 2001 at 20:07:37 (GMT)
From: Tony Walker
Email: None
To: Dermot
Subject: Thank You Dermot nt
Message:
nt
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Date: Tues, Mar 13, 2001 at 11:21:30 (GMT)
From: Aussi Ji
Email: None
To: Catweazel (c.w)
Subject: Ok .Who the hell are you mon ami?
Message:
G'day Cw,
Now it is your turn.Who are you.COME ON DOWN CATWEAZEL !

Cheers TOny Ji (formerly Aussi Ji)

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Date: Tues, Mar 13, 2001 at 11:47:44 (GMT)
From: Tony Ji
Email: None
To: Carweazel
Subject: Calling all Catweazels.Come on down ! nt
Message:
nt
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Date: Tues, Mar 13, 2001 at 12:11:58 (GMT)
From: Catweasel
Email: Oh Wow!
To: Tony Ji
Subject: You rang?
Message:
I never ever would have guessed? Good luck Tony, enjoy the Sunshine.Coast is clear.......What's your next move?
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Date: Tues, Mar 13, 2001 at 20:18:53 (GMT)
From: Tony Walker
Email: None
To: Catweasel
Subject: Thank You Cw Now the ball is in your ..
Message:
court.I have told you who I am,so be a nice chap and do the same.As for my next step.I am not sure right now.I think I will just bask in the sunshine and enjoy the feeling of freedom that goes hand in hand with TRUE inner freedom,not the pseudo kind that i thought I had for 26 years.
Premies will say.Oh what a shame Tony Walker has gone off in his mind.What a shame. No I haven't.I have come back to REALITY.You should try it cw,it just takes stepping out of all the conditioning and seeing things the way they really are.

Cheers Tony.

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Date: Wed, Mar 14, 2001 at 02:02:01 (GMT)
From: Nigel
Email: nigel@redcrow.demon.co.uk
To: Tony Walker
Subject: Thank You Cw Now the ball is in your ..
Message:
Hi Tony and congrats on the coming out - but a word of warning. You're wasting your time talking to Catweasel. Cat has a possibly genetic malfunction which prevents him communicating effectively, or (let's face it) at all. But talk to him nicely for long enough and he might swear at you for five seconds or threaten to meet you down a dark alleyway. Maybe it feels good that you've made the effort but is such intervention helping him? I'm not sure. He's going to Amaroo regardless. Time will tell.
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Date: Wed, Mar 14, 2001 at 08:52:30 (GMT)
From: Tony Walker
Email: None
To: Nigel
Subject: Thank You Nigel .How right..
Message:
you are.the stupid prick thinks he had something to do with my revealing my identity.As I said above somewhere it was because my info supply line got cut off,and so there was no longer a point to being anonymous

Cheers
Tony.

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Date: Tues, Mar 13, 2001 at 19:27:28 (GMT)
From: Thelma the Fat Fag
Email: None
To: Catweasel
Subject: Victoria, sweetie Dahling, don't be so Bitter
Message:
To Catweasle aka Victoria Bitter

from Thelma aka Pat Conlon.

Hi, honey-pie, sweetie-poops, come on tell us who you are, pretty please. Nothing to be afraid of. You know we love you, you beautiful toned she-boy, you.

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Date: Tues, Mar 13, 2001 at 12:44:13 (GMT)
From: AJW
Email: None
To: Catweasel
Subject: You rang?
Message:
Hi Cat,

Howz it hanging down there? Any news on the registration figures for the cult fundraiser? I heard it was up to 24, with about 150 applying to be their servants so they don't have to pay to go in.

I also heard that there's talk of the 'event' being cancelled and Captain Rawats inviation withdrawn. Can you confirm or deny either of these rumours my old mate?

Take care
anth the organic maoist

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Date: Wed, Mar 14, 2001 at 07:04:41 (GMT)
From: CW
Email: None
To: AJW
Subject: You rang?
Message:
Well Anth you will be pleased to know that all those rumours are groundless. Roll on April!I heard that you are still hanging around eager to hear what is happening. JS I'm not. I might even get him to tell you so!
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Date: Wed, Mar 14, 2001 at 11:58:33 (GMT)
From: AJW
Email: None
To: CW
Subject: Who said anything about JS?
Message:
I haven't shopped at Sainsburys for ages.

Is it true, CW, that whenever you volunteer to do 'service', they never get round to asking you?

Anth just checking.

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Date: Wed, Mar 14, 2001 at 13:11:54 (GMT)
From: CW
Email: None
To: AJW
Subject: Who said anything about JS?
Message:
What do you think Anth? Perhaps that would be good. What do you think
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Date: Thurs, Mar 15, 2001 at 11:43:41 (GMT)
From: AJW
Email: None
To: CW
Subject: It would be very good Cat.
Message:
That's what happened to me in my last few lingering years in the cult. They didn't like it that I was starting to think for myself again, and develop my own opinions about things. So gradually I stopped being invited.

It's the early steps back to freedom Cat. You're already well down the path.

The human spirit is too strong to be enslaved by a cult.

Anth the aerodynamic cup of tea.

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Date: Thurs, Mar 15, 2001 at 11:59:09 (GMT)
From: CW
Email: None
To: AJW
Subject: Chill Anth
Message:
Never been any different.We are a very different lot ,we Aussies.
Religion sucks.Too many black fellas out here to get too confused. And you can always go walkabout. BUT , I like M and what he does. You dont.
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Date: Thurs, Mar 15, 2001 at 12:22:25 (GMT)
From: AJW
Email: None
To: CW
Subject: me how?
Message:
'Too many black fellas out here to get too confused.'

What do you mean by that Cat? Am I missing something here?

Anth the yellowy-pink.

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Date: Fri, Mar 16, 2001 at 00:07:24 (GMT)
From: Catweasel
Email: Take it up the top if you want?
To: AJW
Subject: me how?Miaow?
Message:
Australian Aborigines affectionately call themselves 'Black fella's'. It is a proud term , not derrogatary in any way. We live in their country with their culture overriding everything. It's a subtle thing but once you know it , it is a very clear energy.We revere it. (Contrary to popular belief). Idiots like our PM and the rascist thugs that support him can't hear the humming of this ancient land. They dont smell it's colours. They cant feel it . Blackfella's? When you come over Anth spend some time with them. Your consciousness will shift via osmosis.
Cheers from a Cat no-one really knows
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Date: Tues, Mar 13, 2001 at 15:08:24 (GMT)
From: michael donner
Email: None
To: tony ji
Subject: You rang?
Message:
hi tony ji...thanks for letting go of the alias. I personally do not think we have met...but i was one of those suggesting that the alias thing was a bit off putting. so thanks from one who would rather have a real name/person. i think it adds credibility to what we are doing here.
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Date: Tues, Mar 13, 2001 at 21:11:13 (GMT)
From: Dermot
Email: None
To: michael donner
Subject: You rang?
Message:
I said welcome and thanks way down below the thread you sent to me, not in that thread.... just mentioning that in cse you thought I was deliberately ignoring you 'cos you were a PAM ( haha ) ....

Seeems us rank&filers AND Pam's are crawling out of the woodwork into the clear light of reality.....what a long strange trip it's been huh?

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Date: Tues, Mar 13, 2001 at 20:21:42 (GMT)
From: Tony Walker
Email: None
To: michael donner
Subject: You rang?
Message:
G'day michael,
Thank You.Actually you had a bit to do with my 'outing'.I have enjoyed reading your posts,you have added a lot of credibility to the site.I thank you .

Cheers Tony.

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