Forum V: Archive
Compiled: Sun, Mar 18, 2001 at 17:05:07 (GMT)
From: Mar 13, 2001 To: Mar 17, 2001 Page: 2 Of: 5


Charlie -:- Born to Loose (sp?) -:- Fri, Mar 16, 2001 at 00:13:13 (GMT)
__ Susan -:- hiarious (nt) -:- Fri, Mar 16, 2001 at 17:55:04 (GMT)
__ AJW -:- That's really funny Charlie (nt) -:- Fri, Mar 16, 2001 at 13:03:59 (GMT)
__ Jerry -:- LOL! -:- Fri, Mar 16, 2001 at 02:43:49 (GMT)
__ Katie -:- New Site Logo! -:- Fri, Mar 16, 2001 at 01:22:02 (GMT)
__ __ Charlie -:- New Site Logo! -:- Fri, Mar 16, 2001 at 01:35:23 (GMT)
__ __ __ such -:- In the Angels,they'd just skin it - use a knife(nt -:- Fri, Mar 16, 2001 at 03:11:25 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Katie -:- In the Angels,they'd just skin it - use a knife -:- Fri, Mar 16, 2001 at 03:14:57 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ such -:- That's diff between Charlie's and Hell's Angels(nt -:- Fri, Mar 16, 2001 at 03:29:19 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Postie -:- You're in rare form such - laughed my face off /nt -:- Fri, Mar 16, 2001 at 07:01:21 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ such -:- re:You're in rare forum, such: U R most welcome(nt -:- Fri, Mar 16, 2001 at 11:18:37 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Katie -:- Duh - I finally got the joke! Very funny :)! (nt) -:- Fri, Mar 16, 2001 at 13:26:13 (GMT)
__ __ __ Katie -:- New Site Logo! -:- Fri, Mar 16, 2001 at 01:47:35 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Charlie -:- Now I see... -:- Fri, Mar 16, 2001 at 01:56:44 (GMT)
__ janet -:- how the hell did you do that anyway? nt -:- Fri, Mar 16, 2001 at 00:51:30 (GMT)
__ Jim -:- THIS IS THE FUNNIEST THING ALL AFTERNOON!!!!!!!!!! -:- Fri, Mar 16, 2001 at 00:27:51 (GMT)
__ __ Charlie -:- THIS IS THE FUNNIEST THING ALL AFTERNOON!!!!!!!!!! -:- Fri, Mar 16, 2001 at 00:59:30 (GMT)
__ __ __ Richard -:- Funny as camel dung in the lahdus Charlie /nt -:- Fri, Mar 16, 2001 at 06:25:38 (GMT)
__ __ __ Connie -:- funny, funny, funny nt -:- Fri, Mar 16, 2001 at 01:17:43 (GMT)
__ Lee -:- Born to Loose (sp?) -:- Fri, Mar 16, 2001 at 00:23:07 (GMT)
__ __ Brian -:- Well, he's obviously snapped... -:- Fri, Mar 16, 2001 at 01:05:07 (GMT)
__ Selene -:- arrggghhhh!! -:- Fri, Mar 16, 2001 at 00:17:34 (GMT)

Katie Darling -:- Saving the World etc. -:- Thurs, Mar 15, 2001 at 22:10:04 (GMT)
__ Katie -:- Saving the World and Growing Up Anxious -:- Fri, Mar 16, 2001 at 01:46:13 (GMT)
__ __ Katie Darling -:- Saving the World and Growing Up Anxious -:- Fri, Mar 16, 2001 at 02:41:18 (GMT)
__ __ __ Jitendra Darling -:- So this is where my wife goes when... -:- Fri, Mar 16, 2001 at 03:14:32 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ bill -:- thanks Jitrenda, good post/nice wife!..nt -:- Fri, Mar 16, 2001 at 06:35:32 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Pat Conlon -:- Hi, Jitendra -:- Fri, Mar 16, 2001 at 04:48:27 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Katie H. -:- Greetings, Jitendra -:- Fri, Mar 16, 2001 at 04:14:43 (GMT)
__ __ __ Katie -:- Saving the World and Growing Up Anxious -:- Fri, Mar 16, 2001 at 02:57:46 (GMT)
__ Bin Liner -:- The Cuban Missile Crisis... -:- Fri, Mar 16, 2001 at 01:37:06 (GMT)
__ la-ex -:- Saving the World etc: Definitely, and so sad... -:- Fri, Mar 16, 2001 at 01:12:13 (GMT)
__ __ Joe -:- Well said, LA-EX..... -:- Fri, Mar 16, 2001 at 06:47:21 (GMT)
__ __ __ la-ex -:- Joe: Yeah,'comin out 'to LA + SF this sumer...nt -:- Fri, Mar 16, 2001 at 18:41:26 (GMT)
__ Connie -:- Saving the World etc. -:- Fri, Mar 16, 2001 at 01:10:37 (GMT)
__ __ Katie H. -:- Saving the World etc. -:- Fri, Mar 16, 2001 at 03:11:04 (GMT)
__ __ __ Connie -:- Isn't that the killer... -:- Fri, Mar 16, 2001 at 04:11:25 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Katie H -:- Isn't that the killer... -:- Fri, Mar 16, 2001 at 04:27:06 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Katie Darling -:- Isn't that the killer... -:- Fri, Mar 16, 2001 at 04:22:23 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Connie -:- Thanks so much to both you Kates nt -:- Fri, Mar 16, 2001 at 04:36:46 (GMT)
__ Richard -:- Saving the World etc. -:- Thurs, Mar 15, 2001 at 22:56:50 (GMT)
__ __ GetSmart -:- Katie, your GetSmart Card is ready -:- Thurs, Mar 15, 2001 at 23:58:46 (GMT)
__ __ __ janet -:- I'll take one-- make mine EPO numerals 4 US -:- Fri, Mar 16, 2001 at 00:54:39 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ janet -:- put the date i exed, here, on it-10/6/2000 -:- Fri, Mar 16, 2001 at 00:57:23 (GMT)
__ __ __ Katie Darling/Disculta -:- How the f**k did you do that? -:- Fri, Mar 16, 2001 at 00:06:28 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ janet -:- be sure to add mine. i just webbed it. nt -:- Fri, Mar 16, 2001 at 01:02:58 (GMT)

Jean-Michel -:- EV jargon update!!! -:- Thurs, Mar 15, 2001 at 16:23:59 (GMT)
__ suchabanana -:- semantics/spelling:'propaganda'not'propagation'(nt -:- Thurs, Mar 15, 2001 at 23:53:57 (GMT)
__ Cynthia-Scorpio-I -:- EPO North American Security Update -:- Thurs, Mar 15, 2001 at 20:35:43 (GMT)
__ kev -:- Southampton!!!!!!! -:- Thurs, Mar 15, 2001 at 20:29:51 (GMT)
__ __ Nigel -:- Hey kev - know any Isle of Wight premies..? -:- Fri, Mar 16, 2001 at 20:02:58 (GMT)
__ Joe -:- To Everyone in the United Kingdom -:- Thurs, Mar 15, 2001 at 19:06:06 (GMT)
__ __ Loaf -:- Its too true Joseph...... -:- Sat, Mar 17, 2001 at 08:06:37 (GMT)
__ __ Bin Liner -:- The Harlot's cry from street to street .... -:- Thurs, Mar 15, 2001 at 20:49:59 (GMT)
__ Pauline Premie -:- The Synch Team -:- Thurs, Mar 15, 2001 at 19:02:47 (GMT)
__ __ Dickie Pwickie -:- The Synch Team -:- Thurs, Mar 15, 2001 at 20:48:05 (GMT)
__ Gordon Showcase -:- EV jargon update!!! -:- Thurs, Mar 15, 2001 at 18:37:49 (GMT)
__ __ Lesley -:- Gordon, Gordon -:- Thurs, Mar 15, 2001 at 19:03:13 (GMT)
__ __ __ Gordon Showcase -:- Flattery will get you everywhere -:- Thurs, Mar 15, 2001 at 21:18:30 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Lesley -:- Ooh, now you're talking... -:- Fri, Mar 16, 2001 at 19:09:41 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Pat Conlon -:- Ooh, now you're talking...Lesley -:- Sat, Mar 17, 2001 at 01:36:01 (GMT)
__ salam -:- Register for Portland Now -:- Thurs, Mar 15, 2001 at 16:42:53 (GMT)
__ Jim -:- I fell asleep twice in the last paragraph -:- Thurs, Mar 15, 2001 at 16:31:57 (GMT)
__ G -:- 'Discover for Yourself' -:- Thurs, Mar 15, 2001 at 16:30:09 (GMT)
__ __ Mercedes -:- Auto Knowledge Session -:- Thurs, Mar 15, 2001 at 16:45:09 (GMT)
__ __ __ Francesca -:- Also more time to stay drunk n/t -:- Thurs, Mar 15, 2001 at 17:10:41 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ janet -:- hmm-semi retirement..CD-rom...drunk..idea!-- -:- Fri, Mar 16, 2001 at 01:23:34 (GMT)
__ __ michael donner -:- ev jargon -:- Thurs, Mar 15, 2001 at 16:36:54 (GMT)
__ __ __ Dermot -:- Dicover for yourself.. -:- Thurs, Mar 15, 2001 at 16:40:07 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Richard -:- A Post Knowledge Care Team -:- Thurs, Mar 15, 2001 at 18:23:34 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ la-ex -:- EXACTLY!! Maybe we should rename EPO...nt -:- Thurs, Mar 15, 2001 at 19:32:31 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ bill -:- la-ex, your 'wake up free' post was great..nt -:- Fri, Mar 16, 2001 at 05:45:44 (GMT)

Jim -:- Let's go native! -:- Thurs, Mar 15, 2001 at 14:57:29 (GMT)
__ Cynthia -:- Let's go native! Cargo Cult? -:- Thurs, Mar 15, 2001 at 20:46:05 (GMT)
__ Richard -:- Jim- what's a cargo cult? -:- Thurs, Mar 15, 2001 at 18:30:17 (GMT)
__ __ TED Farkel -:- Rich,it's a cult of snails(or is that escargot?)nt -:- Fri, Mar 16, 2001 at 03:48:53 (GMT)
__ __ __ Dickie Pwickie -:- Yeah they are rich, TED -:- Fri, Mar 16, 2001 at 06:29:14 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ TED Farkel -:- Mr. Dickie Pickie:sorry, busy at the moment, but -:- Fri, Mar 16, 2001 at 17:27:40 (GMT)
__ __ Jim -:- FedEx is it exactly -:- Thurs, Mar 15, 2001 at 22:58:14 (GMT)
__ __ __ Richard -:- The Gods Must Be Crazy -:- Thurs, Mar 15, 2001 at 23:41:09 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Pat Conlon -:- The Gods Must Be Crazy- Khoi San not Bushman OT -:- Fri, Mar 16, 2001 at 02:08:17 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Jim -:- Speaking of movies, anyone seen Man Bites Dog? OT -:- Fri, Mar 16, 2001 at 00:01:29 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Jethro -:- Speaking of movies, anyone seen Man Bites Dog? OT -:- Fri, Mar 16, 2001 at 00:15:40 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Jim -:- Well that answers that -:- Fri, Mar 16, 2001 at 00:30:10 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Jethro -:- Man bites dog NOT ot -:- Fri, Mar 16, 2001 at 07:37:04 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Jim -:- Maybe, maybe not -:- Fri, Mar 16, 2001 at 15:36:09 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Jethro -:- Yes, you are right. I do like wacky films. -:- Fri, Mar 16, 2001 at 15:55:01 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Jim -:- I was looking for a snuff film -:- Fri, Mar 16, 2001 at 17:01:57 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Jethro -:- Jim, by the way -:- Fri, Mar 16, 2001 at 17:32:35 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Jim -:- Thanks, I'll wait by the mailbox (nt) -:- Fri, Mar 16, 2001 at 23:58:39 (GMT)

Happy/Kaj -:- ok, me too ... -:- Thurs, Mar 15, 2001 at 14:50:21 (GMT)
__ cq -:- ok, me too ... -:- Thurs, Mar 15, 2001 at 20:13:43 (GMT)
__ __ Kaj -:- reply to cq -:- Fri, Mar 16, 2001 at 15:00:54 (GMT)
__ Pat Conlon -:- Kaj, thank you. I am happy for you NT -:- Thurs, Mar 15, 2001 at 20:12:45 (GMT)
__ Susan -:- Hello Kaj (neato name) nt -:- Thurs, Mar 15, 2001 at 19:12:27 (GMT)
__ __ Kaj -:- thanks! nt -:- Thurs, Mar 15, 2001 at 19:15:31 (GMT)
__ Dermot -:- Did you or was it Jim who wrote that classic line -:- Thurs, Mar 15, 2001 at 17:04:53 (GMT)
__ __ Kaj -:- Did you or was it Jim who wrote that classic line -:- Thurs, Mar 15, 2001 at 17:34:58 (GMT)
__ Katie -:- Hi Kaj! (also welcome to Richard, Tony, and all) -:- Thurs, Mar 15, 2001 at 16:57:28 (GMT)
__ __ Kaj -:- thanks! (nt) -:- Thurs, Mar 15, 2001 at 17:35:56 (GMT)
__ __ Katie -:- And Bryn, too (nt) -:- Thurs, Mar 15, 2001 at 16:58:52 (GMT)
__ __ __ Bryn -:- Yes! I'm still here. -:- Fri, Mar 16, 2001 at 15:08:43 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Pat Conlon -:- Bryn, glad you're still here. NT -:- Fri, Mar 16, 2001 at 18:17:31 (GMT)
__ Richard -:- Good going -:- Thurs, Mar 15, 2001 at 16:36:51 (GMT)
__ __ Kaj -:- Good going -:- Thurs, Mar 15, 2001 at 17:38:59 (GMT)
__ Gregg -:- Beautiful Finland -:- Thurs, Mar 15, 2001 at 16:33:06 (GMT)
__ __ Kaj -:- Beautiful Finland -:- Thurs, Mar 15, 2001 at 17:42:24 (GMT)
__ Jean-Michel -:- Hi Kaj, GREAT contributor to 'my' website -:- Thurs, Mar 15, 2001 at 15:29:36 (GMT)
__ __ bill -:- Your posts as happy were very good...nt -:- Fri, Mar 16, 2001 at 05:41:36 (GMT)
__ __ Kaj -:- Hi Kaj, GREAT contributor to 'my' website -:- Thurs, Mar 15, 2001 at 17:46:50 (GMT)
__ __ michael donner -:- Hi Kaj, GREAT contributor to 'my' website -:- Thurs, Mar 15, 2001 at 15:33:41 (GMT)
__ __ __ Kaj -:- Re to Mike -:- Thurs, Mar 15, 2001 at 17:49:22 (GMT)
__ Ulf -:- Any day now -:- Thurs, Mar 15, 2001 at 15:28:49 (GMT)
__ __ Kaj -:- Any day now -:- Thurs, Mar 15, 2001 at 17:51:51 (GMT)
__ __ Michael Dettmers -:- Any day now -:- Thurs, Mar 15, 2001 at 15:33:23 (GMT)

Jim -:- Maybe m's drinking is/was a GOOD thing? -:- Thurs, Mar 15, 2001 at 14:45:46 (GMT)
__ Michael Dettmers -:- Maybe Jim, but ... -:- Thurs, Mar 15, 2001 at 15:29:32 (GMT)
__ __ michael donner -:- Maybe Jim, but ... -:- Thurs, Mar 15, 2001 at 15:52:36 (GMT)
__ __ __ Lesley -:- Hi, Donner -:- Thurs, Mar 15, 2001 at 19:49:48 (GMT)
__ __ __ guy rollins -:- Maybe Jim, but ... -:- Thurs, Mar 15, 2001 at 18:36:36 (GMT)
__ __ __ Bobby -:- personal aspirations, world peace -:- Thurs, Mar 15, 2001 at 18:20:10 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Richard -:- personal aspirations, world peace - great story -:- Fri, Mar 16, 2001 at 15:43:16 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Pat Conlon -:- Bobby, thanks for your post and the link -:- Thurs, Mar 15, 2001 at 19:57:03 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Cerise -:- Bobby, thanks for your post and the link -:- Fri, Mar 16, 2001 at 10:22:44 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Pat Conlon -:- Cerise, whoever you are - I am thinking of you -:- Fri, Mar 16, 2001 at 18:15:16 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Katie Darling -:- Hey Bobby -:- Thurs, Mar 15, 2001 at 21:50:31 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Francesca -:- Glad to see you posting, Bobby! n/t -:- Thurs, Mar 15, 2001 at 18:49:08 (GMT)
__ __ __ Gregg -:- Maybe, michael -:- Thurs, Mar 15, 2001 at 18:11:26 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ la-ex -:- two bit yoga teacher in a college town.Love it! nt -:- Thurs, Mar 15, 2001 at 20:58:26 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Susan -:- infantile beyond our youth. brilliant! -:- Thurs, Mar 15, 2001 at 18:49:02 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ donner -:- Maybe, michael -:- Thurs, Mar 15, 2001 at 18:26:59 (GMT)
__ __ __ Katie Darling -:- Yeah, Donner, what was it in me that brought me to -:- Thurs, Mar 15, 2001 at 17:28:17 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Francesca -:- Limbic attractors 'are you my mother' -:- Thurs, Mar 15, 2001 at 19:23:35 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Katie Darling -:- Wow, Francesca, this is hot stuff -:- Thurs, Mar 15, 2001 at 20:03:06 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Francesca -:- the airport experience -:- Thurs, Mar 15, 2001 at 22:27:16 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ bill -:- can we have that photo for the website??..nt -:- Fri, Mar 16, 2001 at 06:29:10 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Francesca -:- tell me where to mail it ... -:- Fri, Mar 16, 2001 at 17:39:48 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Francesca -:- Katie -- one more on the airport -:- Thurs, Mar 15, 2001 at 22:59:16 (GMT)
__ __ __ Jim -:- Okay, you can be 'mike' (he's Mike?) -:- Thurs, Mar 15, 2001 at 16:51:13 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ donner -:- Okay, tell me more please -:- Thurs, Mar 15, 2001 at 16:59:18 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Jim -:- More -:- Thurs, Mar 15, 2001 at 23:58:54 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Susan -:- Hi Michael -:- Thurs, Mar 15, 2001 at 18:40:37 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Joe -:- Okay, tell me more please -:- Thurs, Mar 15, 2001 at 18:06:52 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Katie Darling -:- Joe, you said it: -:- Thurs, Mar 15, 2001 at 22:30:52 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Jim -:- will answer later, gotta go now (nt) -:- Thurs, Mar 15, 2001 at 17:18:26 (GMT)
__ __ Jim -:- Hm, you can really look at this either way, no? -:- Thurs, Mar 15, 2001 at 15:41:34 (GMT)
__ __ __ Richard -:- Ramtha, Mafu, Swift Deer, et al -:- Thurs, Mar 15, 2001 at 23:34:19 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Jim -:- What?? -:- Fri, Mar 16, 2001 at 00:07:11 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Richard -:- I forgot the punch line re: Swift Deer -:- Fri, Mar 16, 2001 at 02:49:55 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Francesca -:- I forgot the punch line re: Swift Deer -:- Fri, Mar 16, 2001 at 05:47:00 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Richard -:- Harley Swift Deer - correct n/t -:- Fri, Mar 16, 2001 at 06:03:59 (GMT)

Tony Walker -:- Mon dieu.Zare are zo many posts,anz zo many -:- Thurs, Mar 15, 2001 at 11:34:16 (GMT)
__ Richard -:- Hey FA - can we get a hit count -:- Thurs, Mar 15, 2001 at 16:08:09 (GMT)
__ __ Forum Administrator -:- Hit counts -:- Fri, Mar 16, 2001 at 05:43:22 (GMT)
__ __ __ Richard -:- Messages read - thanks FA -:- Fri, Mar 16, 2001 at 06:13:22 (GMT)
__ __ donner -:- Hey FA - can we get a hit count -:- Thurs, Mar 15, 2001 at 16:43:29 (GMT)
__ __ __ Brian -:- Hey FA - can we get a hit count -:- Fri, Mar 16, 2001 at 00:54:17 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Alan Fenstermacher -:- Hey FA - can we get a hit count -:- Fri, Mar 16, 2001 at 01:56:05 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Pat Conlon -:- Hi Alan nice to know you were Ben Lurking -:- Fri, Mar 16, 2001 at 02:28:27 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Richard -:- Alan - your name is familiar -:- Fri, Mar 16, 2001 at 02:18:27 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Alan F. -:- Alan - your name is familiar -:- Fri, Mar 16, 2001 at 06:35:14 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Richard -:- Alan - Kittredge Building -:- Fri, Mar 16, 2001 at 06:55:32 (GMT)
__ __ __ Richard -:- Hey Donner, I thought you weren't a geek n/t -:- Thurs, Mar 15, 2001 at 16:45:36 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ doner -:- Hey Donner, I thought you weren't a geek n/t -:- Thurs, Mar 15, 2001 at 18:29:13 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Richard -:- Yes, the impact is growing -:- Thurs, Mar 15, 2001 at 18:44:07 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ la-ex -:- Richard, about them monkeys.... -:- Thurs, Mar 15, 2001 at 20:51:51 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Katie Darling -:- About monkeys and chaos theory and stuff -:- Thurs, Mar 15, 2001 at 22:26:51 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Richard -:- chaos theory and stuff -:- Thurs, Mar 15, 2001 at 22:40:08 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Katie Darling -:- To Naked Richard from Naked Katie ... nectar -:- Thurs, Mar 15, 2001 at 22:47:43 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Joe -:- A little History/Analysis -:- Thurs, Mar 15, 2001 at 19:18:49 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Katie -:- Thanks, Joe - good analysis -:- Fri, Mar 16, 2001 at 02:17:34 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Pat Conlon -:- Thanks, Katie - good analysis -:- Fri, Mar 16, 2001 at 02:23:21 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Katie -:- My name is Katie Haering -:- Fri, Mar 16, 2001 at 04:05:22 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Katie -:- P.S. to Pat - help me pick a posting name -:- Fri, Mar 16, 2001 at 04:51:07 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Pat Conlon -:- I vote for Katie-Mischa -:- Fri, Mar 16, 2001 at 06:35:05 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Katie -:- Thanks, Pat - I'll think about it -:- Fri, Mar 16, 2001 at 13:27:40 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Pat Conlon -:- Yes, Katie-Mischa. We can find something to -:- Fri, Mar 16, 2001 at 18:08:39 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Katie Darling -:- The Katie dilemma -:- Fri, Mar 16, 2001 at 04:27:43 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Katie H. -:- The Katie dilemma -:- Fri, Mar 16, 2001 at 04:32:32 (GMT)

Francesca -:- I made my own get smart card -:- Thurs, Mar 15, 2001 at 07:09:22 (GMT)
__ Francesca -:- Apologies Jean-Michel for calling you JeanPaul n/t -:- Thurs, Mar 15, 2001 at 17:21:59 (GMT)
__ Pat Conlon -:- Your card's much smarter -:- Thurs, Mar 15, 2001 at 08:24:04 (GMT)
__ __ Jim -:- Those are so funny! -:- Thurs, Mar 15, 2001 at 14:01:21 (GMT)
__ janet -:- put a little mustache on him and mach schnell -:- Thurs, Mar 15, 2001 at 07:30:06 (GMT)
__ Joe -:- Hysterical! (nt) -:- Thurs, Mar 15, 2001 at 07:22:48 (GMT)
__ __ Richard -:- Francesca, Pat and Thelma - Hysterical! -:- Thurs, Mar 15, 2001 at 16:03:52 (GMT)
__ __ __ Katie Darling -:- Brilliant. How do you do that? Please... -:- Thurs, Mar 15, 2001 at 23:31:32 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Pat Conlon -:- To make a link, Katie... -:- Fri, Mar 16, 2001 at 01:56:10 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Katie Darling -:- To make a link, Katie... -:- Fri, Mar 16, 2001 at 03:33:45 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Pat Conlon -:- To make a website, Katie... -:- Fri, Mar 16, 2001 at 04:39:13 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ moldy warp -:- To make a website, Katie... -:- Sat, Mar 17, 2001 at 00:33:46 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Pat Conlon -:- To make a website, Moldy -:- Sat, Mar 17, 2001 at 01:32:32 (GMT)


Date: Fri, Mar 16, 2001 at 00:13:13 (GMT)
From: Charlie
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: Born to Loose (sp?)
Message:
OK, so everyone's getting high about freedom from the cult and all but what do I do about this indelible mark I woke up with one morning after a wild night on the charanamrit?

Oh yeah, I'm messed up for life!!!

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Date: Fri, Mar 16, 2001 at 17:55:04 (GMT)
From: Susan
Email: None
To: Charlie
Subject: hiarious (nt)
Message:
nt
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Date: Fri, Mar 16, 2001 at 13:03:59 (GMT)
From: AJW
Email: None
To: Charlie
Subject: That's really funny Charlie (nt)
Message:
ouch
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Date: Fri, Mar 16, 2001 at 02:43:49 (GMT)
From: Jerry
Email: None
To: Charlie
Subject: LOL!
Message:
Really funny. Thanks for the laugh. I hope that thing's not real.
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Date: Fri, Mar 16, 2001 at 01:22:02 (GMT)
From: Katie
Email: None
To: Charlie
Subject: New Site Logo!
Message:
Just kidding! I'm still laughing, though - thanks.

I have to say this though 'How long did it take you to do THAT, Charlie? :)!! Aren't you supposed to be working?' (snicker)

Love,
Katie

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Date: Fri, Mar 16, 2001 at 01:35:23 (GMT)
From: Charlie
Email: None
To: Katie
Subject: New Site Logo!
Message:
Hi Katie,

you don't sound like you're taking me seriously. I'm deeply earnest and desperately confused. Would it be best removed with a laser gun or an axe?

C

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Date: Fri, Mar 16, 2001 at 03:11:25 (GMT)
From: such
Email: None
To: Charlie
Subject: In the Angels,they'd just skin it - use a knife(nt
Message:
nt
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Date: Fri, Mar 16, 2001 at 03:14:57 (GMT)
From: Katie
Email: None
To: such
Subject: In the Angels,they'd just skin it - use a knife
Message:
Yeah, that's what we want - those raw edges willd have a real impact when we scan it for this site.

I think Charlie's wife must have hidden all the knives though!

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Date: Fri, Mar 16, 2001 at 03:29:19 (GMT)
From: such
Email: None
To: Katie, so dear
Subject: That's diff between Charlie's and Hell's Angels(nt
Message:
oi vay
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Date: Fri, Mar 16, 2001 at 07:01:21 (GMT)
From: Postie
Email: None
To: such
Subject: You're in rare form such - laughed my face off /nt
Message:
nt
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Date: Fri, Mar 16, 2001 at 11:18:37 (GMT)
From: such
Email: None
To: Postie
Subject: re:You're in rare forum, such: U R most welcome(nt
Message:
thank you
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Date: Fri, Mar 16, 2001 at 13:26:13 (GMT)
From: Katie
Email: None
To: such
Subject: Duh - I finally got the joke! Very funny :)! (nt)
Message:
nt
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Date: Fri, Mar 16, 2001 at 01:47:35 (GMT)
From: Katie
Email: None
To: Charlie
Subject: New Site Logo!
Message:
Just peel it off carefully and send it to us so we can scan it and put it on-line!
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Date: Fri, Mar 16, 2001 at 01:56:44 (GMT)
From: Charlie
Email: None
To: Katie
Subject: Now I see...
Message:
Katie, I see I'll have to have a word with you in private.
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Date: Fri, Mar 16, 2001 at 00:51:30 (GMT)
From: janet
Email: None
To: Charlie
Subject: how the hell did you do that anyway? nt
Message:
nt
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Date: Fri, Mar 16, 2001 at 00:27:51 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Charlie
Subject: THIS IS THE FUNNIEST THING ALL AFTERNOON!!!!!!!!!!
Message:
God that's funny!

We need a gallery for sure. All these smart cards and shit. This is great. Maybe Visions will give us a table in Oregon.

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Date: Fri, Mar 16, 2001 at 00:59:30 (GMT)
From: Charlie
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: THIS IS THE FUNNIEST THING ALL AFTERNOON!!!!!!!!!!
Message:
I could cope with this but it's what I have across my chest that really makes me cringe!!

Visits to the swimming pool are a nightmare!

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Date: Fri, Mar 16, 2001 at 06:25:38 (GMT)
From: Richard
Email: None
To: Charlie
Subject: Funny as camel dung in the lahdus Charlie /nt
Message:
nt
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Date: Fri, Mar 16, 2001 at 01:17:43 (GMT)
From: Connie
Email: None
To: Charlie
Subject: funny, funny, funny nt
Message:
hahaha
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Date: Fri, Mar 16, 2001 at 00:23:07 (GMT)
From: Lee
Email: None
To: Charlie
Subject: Born to Loose (sp?)
Message:
Are you sure you didn't dream that tattoo? After all, it's a terrible thing to wake up to...!
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Date: Fri, Mar 16, 2001 at 01:05:07 (GMT)
From: Brian
Email: brian@ex-premie.org
To: Lee
Subject: Well, he's obviously snapped...
Message:
If you need assistance committing Charlie to an institution where he can get the help that he so desperately needs, I'd be happy to offer a character reference for you.

We laughed out loud at his photo comments. Then we shook our heads sadly. Then we laughed some more.

Hmmm... maybe we desperately need help...

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Date: Fri, Mar 16, 2001 at 00:17:34 (GMT)
From: Selene
Email: None
To: Charlie
Subject: arrggghhhh!!
Message:
I'm sure you didn't read my nighbor rant just now on AG but hey man that was like sinchronistical. Poor Charlie.
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Date: Thurs, Mar 15, 2001 at 22:10:04 (GMT)
From: Katie Darling
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: Saving the World etc.
Message:
I am starting a new thread about this topic which was a bit buried in posts by me and Bobby and Donner below.

I was born to save the world (or so it seemed). My parents were British physicists who were drafted to work on the bomb to stop Hitler. Hitler was stopped, and by the time I was born, our home in London was the center of the C.N.D. - the Campaign for Nuclear Disarmament. Think of a kind of DLM service headquarters with people rushing in and out, enthusiastically cooperating in doing what they felt was needed to stop nuclear proliferation, and also similar to DLM because of the underlying atmosphere of fear. The cult I landed in was a very familiar atmosphere to me, despite the atheism of my background.

As a child, the fear was always, would the world blow up before I got home from school and could be with my mother again? We had pictures of mushroom clouds on our walls where other kids had nice wispy cloud murals... In retrospect, it was really fucking terrifying. A decade or so later, lots of people had started having 'Future Shock' and feeling that the world was doomed, but I had Premature Future Shock (PFS). I felt that the world was doomed and that I was responsible for saving it. I went leafleting door to door as a young kiddywink, asking people, 'Have you heard of Strontium 90?' Only ten years later I walked up and down Brighton pier with a sandwich board (aaaaargh!) on which was written The Lord Has Come, or some such crap.

I wrote below in my post about limbic attractors how my family relationships predisposed me to getting into MJ's cult. However, the other big - and maybe bigger predisposition came from this intense anxiety about the state of the world, the sense of wanting to be part of the solution, and a certain hopelessness and powerlessness about that. When 'he' said that he had come to save the world, it created a great relief for me for a long time. If I just gave everything up and helped him, at least I wouldn't be responsible, and he would make sure everything would be alright. So infantile, in retrospect. And very sincere and well-meaning.

This world-saving thang also predisposed me to burn out chez the Lard. I ended up travelling a lot and getting very burned out and exhausted, and always feeling that the 'service' to 'Him' was more important than my body. My body retaliated, and as I have mentioned a few times, I am still dealing with the aftermath of illness that got created.

I saw people who came into the cult for completely different reasons, who had completely different experiences, and I agree with Donner that looking at how we each managed to configure something that was a match to something inside us is a very important and empowering step in healing the cult virus. Doesn't let MJ's preposterous behavior off the hook. I think sometimes it can be a bit confusing. 'If I own my part of it, he will be off the hook (and maybe even then he'll be right and I'll be back being dust at his feet, and wrong, again....). I've found that the opposite is true. The more I've been able to really take responsibility for how much the whole experience was an outpicturing of me, and my needs, unresolved issues, gnarled up limbic attractors, etc. etc., the more power I've felt in discerning MJ's BS and, when necessary, pointing it out (which I've done a lot, quite effectively, since I exit counselled dozens of premies way back).

I'd be really interested in other people's take on this saving the world thing. Was it a big issue for you before Knowledge?

Love Katie Darling

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Date: Fri, Mar 16, 2001 at 01:46:13 (GMT)
From: Katie
Email: None
To: Katie Darling
Subject: Saving the World and Growing Up Anxious
Message:
Dear Katie D -
It's funny that we never talked about this before. I related so much to this part of your post:
A decade or so later, lots of people had started having 'Future Shock' and feeling that the world was doomed, but I had Premature Future Shock (PFS).

My father worked in the Pentagon (US Defense Department) and we lived in the Washington DC area. During 1962, and after, he thought a nuclear strike was immanent, and made preparations for it. I can't remember a time after that when I wasn't scared that the world was going to come to an end. (I still have some of that programming). It made me too serious - and too scared - as a child.

Both M's cult and some of the other spiritual trips I got into before I was a premie had a strong apocalyptic flavor to them. Look at the hype surrounding Millenium, for example. I think that is one of the reasons I was attracted to them - they said out loud what most 'normal' people wouldn't talk about. I didn't see any point in staying in school, getting married, raising a family, etc., when I thought we were facing the destruction of 'normal' life as we knew it.

You also wrote:
I felt that the world was doomed and that I was responsible for saving it.

I felt that too - PERSONALLY responsible. I was attracted to M because he was supposed to fix EVERYTHING in the world and I wouldn't have to do it all myself. (This was a subconscious, but very strong feeling.) However, after about 1976, I realized that M really was NOT going to save the world. He didn't seem all that interested in it anymore, and the focus of DLM at that time seemed to be M himself, rather than helping other people.

I have never been able to buy the attitude that if you find spiritual peace for yourself, you are helping everyone else. I think that might be true to a certain extent, but I still think that more active ways of helping other beings are necessary.

BTW, 'Saving the world' is still a huge issue for me, but I definitely feel less personally responsible for it (after a lot of therapy...). My sister, also an ex-premie, has the same feelings that I do, and her solution is just to do one thing to help other people (or two things, or whatever). I have learned to live with just doing that.

Take care, Katie -
Love from Katie (another child of the nuclear age).

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Date: Fri, Mar 16, 2001 at 02:41:18 (GMT)
From: Katie Darling
Email: None
To: Katie H
Subject: Saving the World and Growing Up Anxious
Message:
Katie, how amazing that we have never hit on this before in all our chats in various places!

My husband just read your post and is now itching to come on-line!

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Date: Fri, Mar 16, 2001 at 03:14:32 (GMT)
From: Jitendra Darling
Email: None
To: all
Subject: So this is where my wife goes when...
Message:
she says she's going to work on her book!

Hi everybody, I'm Jitendra Darling, Katie Darling's husband. I've never been a 'premie,' but I did live in Muktananda's ashram till he died. In fact, Katie and I only met 5 years ago, but we figured out that we had a near-miss in Miami Beach, when we were a few buildings apart, in different ashrams on Collins Ave. in the late 70's.

Katie H: i am astonished at how self-similar this Katie soul-strand of recovering apocalyptics seems to be!

To y'all: I really appreciate the 'service' that the ex-premies are doing in sharing histories. I know Katie has felt isolated and occasionally feels that there is no one that could understand this particular aspect of her strange epic. My life has been a strange epic too. I'm appalled at the extent and depth of abuse that so many of you went through. I'm aware of many of the grisly details surrounding Siddha Yoga, though I personally emerged better off after 4 years or so, in some ways, than when I went in. Although as I'm saying this, I realized I gained a lot, and at the same time the more subtle effects of disempowerment and giving away of my own inner authority - even though the credo was that God was in me AS me - have really only dawned on me in the past couple of years. As a leader of groups myself, I'm becoming increasingly aware of how easily I could usurp and seduce people's power by allowing and making myself available to a certain kind of projection and even adoration. It's because of having been on the other side of this insidious seduction that I challenge myself to constantly be awake to this dynamic, and hold the agreement with myself to not let this happen. I realize now there was no such agreement with my former guru, nor with the one presently installed in Siddha Yoga. Although the message was 'God dwells within me as me,' the unhealthy adoration factor - in other words, projecting my own goodness outside myself and thereby keeping it out of my reach, and the either conscious or unconscious willingness of the guru to receive that adoration - was confusing. Although Muktananda was always saying 'It's not about me, God is within you (which I know your ex-guru didn't even say!), there still seemed to be an invitation from some part of him which willingly harvested all this adoring attention to float on and stay just out of reach. It created a bit of a split for me.

Anyway, just wanted to say hi, and send my love and adoration to you all.

Jitendra Darling

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Date: Fri, Mar 16, 2001 at 06:35:32 (GMT)
From: bill
Email: None
To: Jitendra Darling
Subject: thanks Jitrenda, good post/nice wife!..nt
Message:
adfh
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Date: Fri, Mar 16, 2001 at 04:48:27 (GMT)
From: Pat Conlon
Email: None
To: Jitendra Darling
Subject: Hi, Jitendra
Message:
Get yourself and that wife of yours over to San Francisco and come and visit. I thoroughly enjoyed reading your post. The similarities are astonishing.
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Date: Fri, Mar 16, 2001 at 04:14:43 (GMT)
From: Katie H.
Email: None
To: Jitendra Darling
Subject: Greetings, Jitendra
Message:
Glad to see you here - have heard a lot about you :). (All good, of course!)

You wrote:
Katie H: i am astonished at how self-similar this Katie soul-strand of recovering apocalyptics seems to be!

Yes, I'm amazed too - I was so surprised to read Katie's post. I don't know how many other recovering apocalyptics there are here, but seems like there should be a few others.

You wrote:
As a leader of groups myself, I'm becoming increasingly aware of how easily I could usurp and seduce people's power by allowing and making myself available to a certain kind of projection and even adoration.

I find that this happens even in very mundane situations. People do seem to be looking for someone who is somehow 'above' them, or for someone to follow. I feel fortunate to have had a real inoculation (the M vaccine) against projecting this onto someone else in an unhealthy way. It also turns me off when other people try and project something like this onto me! This kind of idealization is such a barrier to honest relationships.

By the way, your wife is a wonderful person who has helped a lot of people here...but you already know that, right?

Take care,
Katie H.

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Date: Fri, Mar 16, 2001 at 02:57:46 (GMT)
From: Katie
Email: None
To: Katie Darling
Subject: Saving the World and Growing Up Anxious
Message:
Hi Katie -
Tell your husband he can post :)! Would love to read what he has to say.

TC -
Katie H.

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Date: Fri, Mar 16, 2001 at 01:37:06 (GMT)
From: Bin Liner
Email: None
To: Katie Darling
Subject: The Cuban Missile Crisis...
Message:

....happened whilst I was at school in Dublin .

By coincidence , about 3 wks previously , every household in the country had received a booklet from the civil defence explaining how to diy yourself a nuclear fallout shelter.

Everyone was down on their knees praying.
Seriously grim : but hey , it worked .

By the time Rawat came along I was pretty much in the ,' stop the world I want to get off ' , headspace .

The fear factor in our perceptions of the world at that time , is , as you point out , relevant .

The world is a fearful place for all too many people & always has been .

When the fear is specific eg in Kosovo recently , your choice is to walk to the border or pick up a gun .

Most walked.

When the fear is apocalyptic , but low level , as in growing up during the cold war , it changes subtly into a generalised disatisfaction .

Enter the generalised satisfactor , the child who would be all things to all seekers , brought to the West by the gunslingers among the disatisfied ones who went East to find him .

That's just rambling Katie ; your point is very interesting , but a very big subject .

One thing I would say though : your family background is irrelevant as a predisposition to get sucked into a personality cult.


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Date: Fri, Mar 16, 2001 at 01:12:13 (GMT)
From: la-ex
Email: None
To: Katie Darling
Subject: Saving the World etc: Definitely, and so sad...
Message:
Katie-

Yes, saving the world, and saving people, was definitely extremely high on my list, as it was on the list of many of the people I knew and grew close to.

I remember m saying a number of times, that only gmj could save the world, and no one else.
And that he was going to do just that...

I remember randy prouty and bill patterson saying with great conviction that if m didn't get his work done in the 70's, he wouldn't get his 80's agenda done...and if his 80's agenda was not accomplished, the world would destroy itself in the 90's...

Stuff like that really affected me, as I would have given anything, and did give everything,for years to contribute to a cause that I thought was moving in that direction...

It's amazing how we trusted for so long, and didn't critically question more....but I guess that(questioning) would have been the 'mind'...

Sir Dave said recently, 'he walked with gods, and didn't realize it' (something like that)...it's very true, for some brief moments (actually years) he had so many of the best and brightest, and most sincere, and just couldn't deliver...

One of the things that is so sad is that so many premies I know were into really beautiful things like working with handicapped kids, saving the environment etc., and left those pursuits because m told them to. they threw themselves into ss&m...when m ultimately let them down,they gave up on their original idealism, and focused on themselves only.
In many instances this was necessary, as they were a decade or so behind in their careers, and unsure of themselves in relationships...
m told us that all of those other 'save the world' pursuits were an illusion, only m could do anything...

It's sad to hear some of those stories, and see some of the results, although I sense with middle age that more premies and exes are taking a second look and may return to at least a little bit of idealism and helping others...

It's amazing to me how m can now deny all of this stuff that he said and did back then....it's also amazing how any one from that era can read that stuff on his web site and not voice their protest at his blatant revisionism(deletion, distortion,and just plain lying)

Later,
la-ex

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Date: Fri, Mar 16, 2001 at 06:47:21 (GMT)
From: Joe
Email: None
To: la-ex
Subject: Well said, LA-EX.....
Message:
Hey, are you going to 'come out' one of these days too?
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Date: Fri, Mar 16, 2001 at 18:41:26 (GMT)
From: la-ex
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: Joe: Yeah,'comin out 'to LA + SF this sumer...nt
Message:
nt
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Date: Fri, Mar 16, 2001 at 01:10:37 (GMT)
From: Connie
Email: None
To: Katie Darling
Subject: Saving the World etc.
Message:
Dear Katie

You said:

'I'd be really interested in other people's take on this saving the world thing. Was it a big issue for you before Knowledge?'

Although I thought the world needed saving, I thought I needed saving more. The state of the 'world' was due to individuals not knowing who they were or what their purpose was. The ethos, that by saving each individual first was the way to save the world, because that was what the world was made up of, individuals, was what struck a chord in me. I was acutely aware of my own and other people's pain. Everyone seemed so lost, me most of all, which ties in with your point:

'When 'he' said that he had come to save the world, it created a great relief for me for a long time. If I just gave everything up and helped him, at least I wouldn't be responsible, and he would make sure everything would be alright. So infantile, in retrospect. And very sincere and well-meaning.'

This is a very good point.

Especially 'at least I wouldn't be responsible, and he would make sure everything would be alright.'

I read that now, and when I strip away all the defenses of avoidance and ego building spiritual concepts, ie., I am a true seeker of God, I am a great devotee etc., I am beginning to understand how much I handed over my power, abdicated personal responsibility and had such a desperate need to give my entire life over to someone because I was too scared to take responsibility, and basically had a belief system that 'I' did not deserve to exist. To put it bluntly, I was a very frightened child, who didn't want to grow up. I made a pact to use him as a pacifier. As you said, in retrospect, very infantile.

I agree with your comment of also being sincere and well meaning. I had a strong idealism, was naively sincere and enthusiastic.

I think it is very good to look at yourself back then, it has given me such insight about where I was REALLY at. I feel I am just starting to grow up now, better late than never I suppose!

Thanks


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Date: Fri, Mar 16, 2001 at 03:11:04 (GMT)
From: Katie H.
Email: None
To: Connie
Subject: Saving the World etc.
Message:
Dear Connie -
Thanks for your post. You wrote something that really struck me:

...I am beginning to understand how much I handed over my power, abdicated personal responsibility and had such a desperate need to give my entire life over to someone because I was too scared to take responsibility, and basically had a belief system that 'I' did not deserve to exist. To put it bluntly, I was a very frightened child, who didn't want to grow up. I made a pact to use him as a pacifier. As you said, in retrospect, very infantile.

I am also someone who believed that 'I' did not deserve to exist. In fact, part of me still believes that - it's a primal feeling created by very early childhood experiences that I am learning to live with and 'live around'. I know intuively and intellectually that I deserve to exist - it's the emotional feelings that make it difficult for me sometimes. But once I recognized where those feelings came from, and that they are untrue, it has made them easier to live with.

I was very interested in what you wrote about responsibility. I was forced by circumstance to be overly responsible from a very young age (I am the oldest in my family, and had to do some caretaking for my parents). I have always felt responsible for EVERYTHING - Brian, my partner, makes a joke that if I could figure out how to take responsibility for World War II, I would do it. So, for me too, letting Maharaji take responsibility was a big relief.

However, I don't think I ever really trusted Maharaji. I TRIED to surrender and let go, and let him be responsible, but I was always sort of 'in my mind' checking up on him. I wrote to Katie Darling above that I gave up on Maharaji in the late seventies when he appeared to be far more interested in devotion to himself than in bringing peace to the world. (And this was when I believed that he might be the Satguru - so you can see how OVERLY responsible I really am!)

Anyway, just wanted to let you know how much I identified with some parts of your post! I'm still working on growing up too - I feel that growing up too fast and taking too much responsibility is just as much of an impediment to real maturity as not growing up at all.

Take care -
Katie H.

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Date: Fri, Mar 16, 2001 at 04:11:25 (GMT)
From: Connie
Email: None
To: Katie H.
Subject: Isn't that the killer...
Message:
that intellectually and logically you know you do deserve to exist, but emotionally is another thing entirely.

So really in one way, what I thought was God was just an emotional response to my belief that I shouldn't exist. Wasn't m reinforcing that continually, talking about the mind, doubtmaker, and to surrender? Makes you question if feeling gratitude/devotion was just the huge sense of relief felt in handing responsibility over! How incredible!!

I didn't really start doubting him until recently and unfortunately have had those not existing messages reinforced again and again. Oh well.

Yep, I was super responsible too, still am, laughed at what Brian said to you, I have heard similiar things about myself.

That ingrained super responsibility since childhood is channelled towards other's pain, it is more important than mine.

PS:
I think it is so funny/sad that responsiblity is demanded now in EV. On one hand, you have to be responsible in your skill level and code of behaviour, yet on the other, you have to give over your responsibility, because you need the master, can't and don't know his vision and have to follow whatever he says and wants. You always have to let him be responsible via surrending, letting go, not listening to the mind/doubtmaker. That is why I think it is so hard for premies/pwks now, it's like they're slowly cracking in two.

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Date: Fri, Mar 16, 2001 at 04:27:06 (GMT)
From: Katie H
Email: mishkat@tigerriver.com
To: Connie
Subject: Isn't that the killer...
Message:
Hi Connie -
Wow, I never thought about that split re having to be super-responsible YET surrendered in EV. That would have driven me nuts. I have to be very responsible at work, although my boss is the ultimate authority, but I never have to worry about being 'in my mind'.

About not deserving to exist - I don't know what to say. It was very helpful to me to speak to a therapist who pinpointed and identified that belief (you've already done that part), and then told me where it came from. He said it was probably established in my mind before the age of 2, and that it would be extremely difficult to eradicate, BUT that I could learn to sense when I was having feelings or thoughts based on that false belief, and then rationally discount them as being based on a false belief. Still, it's not easy to live with, and I can imagine that it's a very hard thing to deal with while you're exiting, and especially when you've been taught NOT to trust your cognitive mind. It's SO true that many of the things Maharaji says reinforce that belief!

I'm glad you got a laugh out of what Brian said to me - it helps me that he really does understand :). Humor does help to put things into perspective.

Take care of yourself -
Love,
Katie H.

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Date: Fri, Mar 16, 2001 at 04:22:23 (GMT)
From: Katie Darling
Email: None
To: Connie
Subject: Isn't that the killer...
Message:
Yes, when I got out I was amazed to realize that much of what I had thought was a SPIRITUAL thing had been emotional. I spent years mostly exploring my emotional realms (and other people's).

Then I came back to spirituality through a different route. Then I figured out, for myself, how to knit it all together.

What you said about the PWKs cracking up made me sad, not triumphant. I hope they can be helped through the doorway. It was hard enough after 12 years - so many of them are practically lifers, with their whole adult lives within this one belief system.

Love to you Connie

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Date: Fri, Mar 16, 2001 at 04:36:46 (GMT)
From: Connie
Email: None
To: Katie Darling
Subject: Thanks so much to both you Kates nt
Message:
hug
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Date: Thurs, Mar 15, 2001 at 22:56:50 (GMT)
From: Richard
Email: None
To: Katie Darling
Subject: Saving the World etc.
Message:
Definitely I wanted to help save the world. Not my sole concern but a top priority. Everything I did service-wise was towards that end. My cosmology was that M was the leader who 'knew' the way and he was showing us how the world was to be saved.

Something happened at Millenium in Houston that I've never forgotten. I was a 'greeter' of special guests at the airport. Among other special guests that I chauffered was a Native American leader whos name I'm sorry I can't recall. I do remember a man of great dignity and intensity in his eyes. I asked him why he had come and he said something like 'my people want to know if (our spiritual leader) has come again'. I was totally floored. Here we were running around like grinning ninnies and here this person had seen the hype and wanted to see for himself if it was true. That cut me waaay down to size in terms of spiritual smugness.

I just posted the following in the Monkey sub-thread (god it's getting tricky to sort out what's where). I like this idea very much and wanted to tack it on here.

When I looked at that picture of myself at Montrose 1973, I could recall the body rush of potential. And then I became sad at the lost opportunity. Damn it was powerful and we took that amazing potential, creativity and huge levels of inspiration and laid it at M's feet so he could save the world. Problem is, he took that mandate and instead of saving the world, he invested in himself.

That potential is still there - we brought it - we've still got it. And I do feel a big wave of energy filling me now I haven't felt in along time.

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Date: Thurs, Mar 15, 2001 at 23:58:46 (GMT)
From: GetSmart
Email: None
To: KD
Subject: Katie, your GetSmart Card is ready
Message:
Disculta
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Date: Fri, Mar 16, 2001 at 00:54:39 (GMT)
From: janet
Email: None
To: GetSmart
Subject: I'll take one-- make mine EPO numerals 4 US
Message:
we'll start issuing our own EPO card carrying memberships-- with chips embedding our Journeys and specific objections and criticisms of rawat-- that appear onscreen when scanned
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Date: Fri, Mar 16, 2001 at 00:57:23 (GMT)
From: janet
Email: None
To: janet
Subject: put the date i exed, here, on it-10/6/2000
Message:
the bottom numerals can read
US EPO10600
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Date: Fri, Mar 16, 2001 at 00:06:28 (GMT)
From: Katie Darling/Disculta
Email: None
To: GetSmart
Subject: How the f**k did you do that?
Message:
Gee... er thanks, what a geek you are smarty! Does this mean I have to start paying Active Membership Program dues again, or whatever? I love seeing these faces. I now have Conlon, Thelma, Rollins (by private e-mail), Francesca, Jean-Michel, Richard Rogers (you look the same, the edges a bit rounder), in my baseball card collection.

Someone asked below about attaching faces to journeys (optional). Any geek takers.

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Date: Fri, Mar 16, 2001 at 01:02:58 (GMT)
From: janet
Email: None
To: Katie Darling/Disculta
Subject: be sure to add mine. i just webbed it. nt
Message:
it's at
http://community-2.webtv.net/Jai_Choix/B4Iquit4sure/

or
a href='http://community-2.webtv.net/Jai_Choix/B4Iquit4sure/'>click here

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Date: Thurs, Mar 15, 2001 at 16:23:59 (GMT)
From: Jean-Michel
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: EV jargon update!!!
Message:
Here's a copy of some recent mail to UK big shots:

+++++++++++

Elan Vital UK Email Announcement - http://www.elanvital.org.uk

Dear List Member,
We hope you will enjoy reading the monthly update below compiled by the
Elan Vital National team.
If you do not wish to receive these updates in future please email us at
mailinglist@elanvital.org.uk. There is no need to unsubscribe.
We will continue to send you other mailings, such as event announcements.

All the best

UK Web Team


UK MONTHLY REPORT - FEBRUARY 2001 01.03.01

PROPAGATION

Updates:
- Two Knowledge Sessions (formerly known as Auto Knowledge Sessions) are
scheduled for March
- The first Knowledge Introduction Training was held in London in
February. A second Knowledge Introduction Training will take place in
Leeds on 3&4 March, with a proposal submitted for another in Southampton
on 31 March & 1 April.
- The instructor and propagation teams are actively working towards
development of a
UK Propagation strategy in conjunction with UK Area teams
- Raja Ji will be touring the UK in late March: Events are being finalised
and it is hoped will include: Bristol, London, Midlands, Manchester.
- Hindi and Tamil events are being held for people with Knowledge and
introductory events planned, with the support of Instructor Dayal Anand,
who is currently touring.

New projects and initiatives:
- Discover for Yourself, a distance learning package for those coming to
Knowledge, will be launched in the UK in March
- Phase 1 on an Interactive Information Line is scheduled to be launched
in mid March This national telephone service will provide information as
well as offering a facility to leave messages to deal with any enquiries
- A Post Knowledge Care team is now in place, with packs in preparation to
hand to those receiving Knowledge at forthcoming Knowledge Sessions
- A Propagation Day is planned in London on 17.3 as a follow up to the
recent Knowledge Introduction Training
- Propagation plan for Scotland to be discussed at a meeting on 10.3
- Disability Awareness Days are taking place around the country and are
being well received
- Norma Wilshaw, as acting National Contact, is currently meeting with
people with Knowledge and teams in the UK to listen to concerns or
complaints about the organisation

Future plans:
- Special Post Knowledge Care events are planned which will give
information on events, materials and participation opportunities
- The Aspirant team is working towards the goal of local Knowledge
sessions

EVENTS

- Venue research is being undertaken for a proposal for 3 UK events with M
in the summer
- Three UK locations are broadcasting the Hindi satellite channel, two of
which provide regular live translation into Hindi
- Three smaller Hindi communities have arranged informal in-house
broadcast events
- There has been an enthusiastic response to an initial effort to identify
people to support the European Event Team to put on a Hindi Event

ORGANISATION, TEAMS AND SUPPORT SERVICES

Updates:
- The National Contact role is to be renamed National Propagation Contact
to ensure that efforts focus on this all-important area. To encourage
more applicants, this position is shortly to be advertised. Further
applications for this role will be welcome. Meanwhile Norma Wilshaw
continues as caretaker of the role
- The UK synch team is now operational and currently comprises the
National Contact, Finance/Resources Contact, Propagation Support Contact,
an Instructor, and Events Area representative. Their role is to ensure
that a strategic propagation plan is in place for the country, to take a
strategic overview of activities in the UK Areas, synchronise activity in
the country, and to act as a communications channel with Europe and
globally. Legal, PR and Participation (human resource) teams are also
represented as support services. Once the new Areas are in place a
representative from the team of Area Managers will be invited onto the UK
sync team.
- The Participation team, together with other national team members, are
commencing interviews for National Introductory Contact, seven UK Area
Managers, IT Manager and Web-site Manager
- All roles are advertised widely and anyone with relevant skills is
invited to apply
- The National Propagation Contact and Materials Manager roles are to be
clarified and re-advertised shortly
- The Post Knowledge Care and Aspirant Manager roles will be re-advertised
in due course. Meanwhile, these teams are functioning well regardless of
the vacancies
- The UK Hindi/Tamil synch team has completed its own performance
evaluation for 2000 and will conduct a further self evaluation in March

New projects/initiatives:
- Representatives of the UK sync team will tour the UK in March/April in
order to encourage people with Knowledge to take responsibility for
propagation, and to ensure that all are behind the propagation plan for
the UK, to communicate information on tools available to support
propagation, encourage more home viewers for the broadcast and to inspire
new Areas to build teams,

Future plans:
- A small team are reviewing communications in the UK and will develop
proposals for improvement through rationalisation and development of
existing channels, plus establishment of necessary resources to manage
this. As part of its remit the team will also look at ways to give
information to home viewers and those who do not attend local events.

............

Looks like they're going to make it, finally !!!

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Date: Thurs, Mar 15, 2001 at 23:53:57 (GMT)
From: suchabanana
Email: None
To: Jean-Michel
Subject: semantics/spelling:'propaganda'not'propagation'(nt
Message:
mt
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Date: Thurs, Mar 15, 2001 at 20:35:43 (GMT)
From: Cynthia-Scorpio-I
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: EPO North American Security Update
Message:
TO: All Ex-Premies
FR: Cynthia-Scorpio-I, Self Appointed Chief of Security, US, Canada, Europe and the UK

RE: EV-US Security Update

EPO's Security Team is (Not 'ARE!') pleased to report that 1) we no longer are referred to as ''Team''; and 2) EPO security has been organized in the U.S. to ward off the evils of EV and it's consistently lazy leader.

The reason for this update is to assure all US ex-premies and wannabees that we are safe from the cult's recent euphemism revisions. EV and it's teams have been having trouble talking the talk. You know, like in ''walk the walk.''

Several studies have been conducted by the EPO Security Dept.
We even had holographic charts and diagrams. I have etched out a plaque for the individual responsible for this impressive work in recognition of his/her creative/scientific excellence. No overhead projectors for this lofty group of EPO's vital individuals!

Heartfelt discussion took place about EV-UK's recent announcements--without any synchronization. No one in the EPO Security Dept. was synchronizationed nor did we behave like a team, I am very happy to report.

We have concluded that it's more likely that EV's new euphemism revision strategy will flop. Maharaji will just lay a big ole stinky fart on UK as soon as he opens his trap and the winds will carry that creepy stuff off...wherever the winds happen to fly that day, disolving into, well, the atmosphere.

End of EPO Security Update.


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Date: Thurs, Mar 15, 2001 at 20:29:51 (GMT)
From: kev
Email: None
To: everyone
Subject: Southampton!!!!!!!
Message:
The first Knowledge Introduction Training was held in London in
February. A second Knowledge Introduction Training will take place in
Leeds on 3&4 March, with a proposal submitted for another in Southampton
on 31 March & 1 April.

SOUTHAMPTON! what a laugh that is. I am a ex-Southampton premie and I know for a fact they only have about 4 to 5 people turn up at there weekly satellite events. The only reason I can see for them having an Knowledge Introduction Training thing in Southampton is that they have thier own hall and it is free-ish (well as free as you are going to get in M's would).

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Date: Fri, Mar 16, 2001 at 20:02:58 (GMT)
From: Nigel
Email: nigel@redcrow.demon.co.uk
To: kev
Subject: Hey kev - know any Isle of Wight premies..?
Message:
I remember as an aspirant and premie often crossing the solent to Soton or Pompey for wretched initiator weekends and retreats... Were you around circa 77 - 81? Did we meet?
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Date: Thurs, Mar 15, 2001 at 19:06:06 (GMT)
From: Joe
Email: None
To: Jean-Michel
Subject: To Everyone in the United Kingdom
Message:
This is shameful. Shame on every one of you Brits for allowing Elan Vital to export American, corporate, psycho-babble, drivel into the land of Shakespeare and Dickens.
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Date: Sat, Mar 17, 2001 at 08:06:37 (GMT)
From: Loaf
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: Its too true Joseph......
Message:
When we (the commoners) lose our sense of language and poetry, rhetoric and allegory - we fall foul of the American sin of over-specification and labelisation. In short - over-verbalisationhood.

I feel sad.

Not only have we Brits allowed Americanisms to drive a wedge between our hearts and minds - but Maha has 'lifted' his script from the immense ocean of Shakespeare - and watered it down....

for example :

we are such stuff as dreams are made on.....
and our little life is rounded with a sleep

says so much more than I feel able to express.

Yours in a dys-synchronised fashion...

Loafie

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Date: Thurs, Mar 15, 2001 at 20:49:59 (GMT)
From: Bin Liner
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: The Harlot's cry from street to street ....
Message:
....shall weave Old England's winding sheet.

Try & keep him on your side of the Pond .

After all , he only came to England for his holidays .

I hate all that guffspeak too .

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Date: Thurs, Mar 15, 2001 at 19:02:47 (GMT)
From: Pauline Premie
Email: None
To: Jean-Michel
Subject: The Synch Team
Message:
I am just blissed out seeing all that is going on in the UK. It is just so impressive that propagation is really starting to begin to commence to get organized and happening. It has just taken this long for Maharaji to get us to have that understanding and to be in synch and to get the synch team synchronzied. I am really impressed that the UK synch team is now operational, and I am praying for the grace to have that understanding of what the synch team is. I don't know what the following means, but it's very impressive:

- The UK synch team is now operational and currently comprises the National Contact, Finance/Resources Contact, Propagation Support Contact, an Instructor, and Events Area representative.

By Maharaji's grave, in the UK these are all the same person, Norma Wilshaw.

Their role is to ensure that a strategic propagation plan is in place for the country, to take a strategic overview of activities in the UK Areas, synchronise activity in the country, and to act as a communications channel with Europe and globally. Legal, PR and Participation (human resource) teams are also represented as support services. Once the new Areas are in place a representative from the team of Area Managers will be invited onto the UK sync team.

Norma Wilshaw is also currently coordinating all this, as well, but one day Elan Vital hopes to have a team of 8,975 people doing participation on these teams, doing.....lots of important stuff. I mean, doesn't it all sound important?

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Date: Thurs, Mar 15, 2001 at 20:48:05 (GMT)
From: Dickie Pwickie
Email: None
To: Pauline Premie
Subject: The Synch Team
Message:
Pauline, it's so synchronistically and enigmatically blissful to hear from you. I've been frantic not knowing if we were going to 'synch up' in Portland. I'll be at the divine mall most of the time. I need a set of Knowledge log terry cloth seatcovers for my baby blue 1973 DUO Valiant. I was hoping to give you a ride home to Malibu, that is if I can get TED to look at my transmission. Every time I try to shift into reverse, the tape player switches from instrumental arti to Suzie Bai's greatest hits. I definitely have an unsychroniszed transmission. So if that gets sorted out, would you let me give you a ride home? And be sure to bring those clingy 1983 vintage Holi colored yoga whites, n'kay?

Yours In Synch,

Dickie Pwickie

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Date: Thurs, Mar 15, 2001 at 18:37:49 (GMT)
From: Gordon Showcase
Email: None
To: Jean-Michel
Subject: EV jargon update!!!
Message:
Well after reading this, even I am thinking of becoming an ex-premie. It's so booring. Where's the glamour, the zing and zest?

And I thought all the loosers were on this page. It's hardly got the pulling power of a gnat's feeler. Not the sort of thing I'd show them at the golf club.

Thank God our Maharaji has nothing to do with this EV twaddle.

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Date: Thurs, Mar 15, 2001 at 19:03:13 (GMT)
From: Lesley
Email: None
To: Gordon Showcase
Subject: Gordon, Gordon
Message:
When are you going to accept the obvious fact staring you in the face:

'Our Maharaji' is the Generator, Operator and Destroyer of EV twaddle???????

The way you write makes me think you are a smart, funny, gentle kind of a person. Mr 'Santa Claus' Rawat doesn't need you to defend him, but I'd bet there are other people in your life who could really do with it.

Best Regards, Lesley, an aussie ex who is finding out that 'better late than never' is compellingly true in this case.

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Date: Thurs, Mar 15, 2001 at 21:18:30 (GMT)
From: Gordon Showcase
Email: None
To: Lesley
Subject: Flattery will get you everywhere
Message:
'The way you write makes me think you are a smart, funny, gentle kind of a person.'

Well now you've got on my good side - how much did you want to borrow?

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Date: Fri, Mar 16, 2001 at 19:09:41 (GMT)
From: Lesley
Email: None
To: Gordon Showcase
Subject: Ooh, now you're talking...
Message:
I do have a yen to goldplate my toilet bowl!
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Date: Sat, Mar 17, 2001 at 01:36:01 (GMT)
From: Pat Conlon
Email: None
To: Lesley
Subject: Ooh, now you're talking...Lesley
Message:
Where've you been? How are you? Miss your input.
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Date: Thurs, Mar 15, 2001 at 16:42:53 (GMT)
From: salam
Email: None
To: Jean-Michel
Subject: Register for Portland Now
Message:
From my secret admirer at EV,

Subject:
Portland Event - Registration

There has been an enthusiastic response from people wanting to register for the Portland event. The theater is large and will easily accommodate all guests. Seats will be assigned randomly on-site at the event. There is no advantage to getting your registration in early. The Elan Vital registration team kindly requests the support, patience and understanding of guests who are experiencing technical challenges when registering. You can help in the following way:

1. Registration will be available soon online at www.events.elanvital.org. This is the easiest and most efficient way.

2. Smart Card holders are invited to use the phone registration
method. Call toll-free in the U.S. 1-877-270-5304 or 408-907-4675. Technical glitches have been intermittent.

3. Fax registration is available. Because this is labor intensive, we suggest this only for those who have no other way to register. Dial 1-918-222-7358 from a fax machine to receive a fax form. Forms may also be available at local video events. We appreciate your perseverance and regret any inconvenience.

Sincerely,

Steve Rush

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Date: Thurs, Mar 15, 2001 at 16:31:57 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Jean-Michel
Subject: I fell asleep twice in the last paragraph
Message:
A small team are reviewing communications in the UK and will develop proposals for improvement through rationalisation and development of existing channels, plus establishment of necessary resources to manage this. As part of its remit the team will also look at ways to give information to home viewers and those who do not attend local events.

'Are'? 'As part of its remit'?

Hell, what do I know about these things?

I'm just happy that Saturday's

Propagation Day!

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Date: Thurs, Mar 15, 2001 at 16:30:09 (GMT)
From: G
Email: None
To: Jean-Michel
Subject: 'Discover for Yourself'
Message:
'Two Knowledge Sessions (formerly known as Auto Knowledge Sessions) are scheduled for March'

What was 'Auto' supposed to mean?

'Discover for Yourself, a distance learning package for those coming to Knowledge, will be launched in the UK in March'

If someone were discovering on their own, a 'distance learning package' from someone else wouldn't be involved.

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Date: Thurs, Mar 15, 2001 at 16:45:09 (GMT)
From: Mercedes
Email: None
To: G
Subject: Auto Knowledge Session
Message:
Hi G,
This days m has deviced a cd rom in which he shows the techniks, that way he does not have to come out and show the aspirants in person. Initially I thought he was developing that for those people he can't reach in person. what I see is that he doesn't want to inconvenience himself by being present during a k session. this shows me one more time the type of person he is, ie : a selfish S-O-B.
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Date: Thurs, Mar 15, 2001 at 17:10:41 (GMT)
From: Francesca
Email: None
To: Mercedes
Subject: Also more time to stay drunk n/t
Message:
hic
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Date: Fri, Mar 16, 2001 at 01:23:34 (GMT)
From: janet
Email: None
To: Francesca
Subject: hmm-semi retirement..CD-rom...drunk..idea!--
Message:
i know--we can beat him to the punch. stamp out as many free CD-roms as AOL does, every time they want to scoop in another raft of new signers. have AutoKnowledge CD's falling out of every publication and newsstand you pass or disturb. saturate the market. kill his outreach with triviality {as if he has'nt done that already}. we have the techniques. we can show them as well as anybody. power to the people. bazza can videotape us at a latvian night, where we each take turns, explaining the techniques and demonstrating them, including a group meditation where we all change positions 'IN SYNCHRONIZED MANNER' like esther williams swimmers, or birds in flight!!! yeah!! make it like line dancing or the macarena!! set it to music and wiggle our asses and everyone jump to the left 90° at the start of the next tehnique!! hey--it'll be the next big dance craze.
let the public name it. I can't wait to see what they call it.
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Date: Thurs, Mar 15, 2001 at 16:36:54 (GMT)
From: michael donner
Email: None
To: jean-michel
Subject: ev jargon
Message:
amazing...another dip into the unreal reality of ev et al. thanks for all your hard work brother.
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Date: Thurs, Mar 15, 2001 at 16:40:07 (GMT)
From: Dermot
Email: None
To: All
Subject: Dicover for yourself..
Message:
Go to www.ex-premie.org......get the techniques there and cut out the middle-man. It's FREE !!!
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Date: Thurs, Mar 15, 2001 at 18:23:34 (GMT)
From: Richard
Email: None
To: Jean-Michel
Subject: A Post Knowledge Care Team
Message:
Isn't that what we are!
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Date: Thurs, Mar 15, 2001 at 19:32:31 (GMT)
From: la-ex
Email: None
To: Richard
Subject: EXACTLY!! Maybe we should rename EPO...nt
Message:
nt
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Date: Fri, Mar 16, 2001 at 05:45:44 (GMT)
From: bill
Email: None
To: la-ex
Subject: la-ex, your 'wake up free' post was great..nt
Message:
lkj
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Date: Thurs, Mar 15, 2001 at 14:57:29 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: Let's go native!
Message:
Here's the cargo cult philosophy in a nutshell, corutesy of today's EV Watchtower. Surely we've walked a few miles since Nanak, bless his heart, wrestled with the mysteries of our anatomy like this. Sounds like between Maharaji and him they're talking about some sort of homonucleus (?) -- a little guy inside pulling the strings. All I can say is, someone should send this guy a subscription to Scientific American or something. Maybe Nature or even Discover. Hell, Boy's Life ....

'From deep within, clarity comes

Edited excerpt, Maharaja in Alexandria, 18th June 2000

When you know how to accept that breath, the heart explodes with joy.
There is a song by Nanak which talks about that power which makes the coming and the going of the breath automatic. There must be something going on in accepting this breath, which, obviously, the mind doesn't know about, but the heart does. That's how it is. The mind says, 'Accepting the breath? What does that mean? Even if you didn't accept it, it will come.' But when you know how to accept that breath, the heart explodes with joy. A joy that is so different. It is the kind of joy that can make you cry and make you smile at the same time.

From somewhere deep, deep, within, clarity starts to come. It wanders right in. 'Yes,' it says, 'This is the most important thing.' Doubts - gone. Questions - none. When you are in that deep, deep practice of Knowledge, clarity dances. Simplicity rules. And the heart is mesmerized. And you know it is right. It's like falling in love. And more. Every time you go within.'

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Date: Thurs, Mar 15, 2001 at 20:46:05 (GMT)
From: Cynthia
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Let's go native! Cargo Cult?
Message:
As Richard said, I never heard that expression either. Care to explain it?

How can you stomach reading Maharaji's blow? It's like, you know, from my experience, I mean, it's like, CONVOLUTED!

Keep 'em coming Jim, I don't have the intestinal fortitude to read my EV Newsletter subscriptions too often, and I hate that site!

Maybe if you keep posting these ridiculous statements the EV Monitors will finally see how utterly nonsensical they are!

Love,
Cynthia

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Date: Thurs, Mar 15, 2001 at 18:30:17 (GMT)
From: Richard
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Jim- what's a cargo cult?
Message:
I've seen that used here often and didn't know what it was - secret FedEx society?

I have to say, any time one of M's excerpts gets posted, I have to wait to read others' comments and reaction because I just can't follow it - must be in my mind, need to do do more practice - yeah, that's it.

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Date: Fri, Mar 16, 2001 at 03:48:53 (GMT)
From: TED Farkel
Email: None
To: Richard
Subject: Rich,it's a cult of snails(or is that escargot?)nt
Message:
nt
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Date: Fri, Mar 16, 2001 at 06:29:14 (GMT)
From: Dickie Pwickie
Email: None
To: TED Farkel
Subject: Yeah they are rich, TED
Message:
Hey TED, be synchronized will you and read my answer to Pauline Premie up above somewhere. I need your help, fast.

in Synch,

DP

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Date: Fri, Mar 16, 2001 at 17:27:40 (GMT)
From: TED Farkel
Email: None
To: Dickie Pwickie
Subject: Mr. Dickie Pickie:sorry, busy at the moment, but
Message:
will try and send some help.

Ole TED'S in some serious high level security meetings in Shaft right now...may have to give up some of that car repair stuff for awhile, unless its Lords car or somethin...

BTW,did you know that TED may have his own video web site this summer?
Followin the 'Reunification Tour' across the fruited plain, with Bole and the Blue Aquarians...

My associate, Mr.eDrek, may be the roving cub reporter for this shindig.
May even ask Ms.SazYou(SezYou)(sounds ike take-out chinese to me)
to help out on the tour, seein as she's a musician...I need some help with the rhythm section (that's me, playin wood blocks)

Later dude,
TED Farkel
(call AAA, about that Suzy Bai stuff)

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Date: Thurs, Mar 15, 2001 at 22:58:14 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Richard
Subject: FedEx is it exactly
Message:
A cargo cult is, strictly speaking, a religion that derives from flotsam and jetsom that has washed ashore from some shipwreck or, alternatively, been left behind or traded with the natives when the Europeans dropped by. The classic cargo cult movie (no pun intended) was 'The Gods Must be Crazy' which I never saw but which, I understand, concerns some South African bushmen finding a coke bottle some pilot threw out of a plane. The bushmen don't know what it is so they do what people usually do in such circumstances, they start a religion.
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Date: Thurs, Mar 15, 2001 at 23:41:09 (GMT)
From: Richard
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: The Gods Must Be Crazy
Message:
Ah, cargo cult - literally what it says.

In Gods Must Be Crazy, they start a religion but some tribesmen use the bottle as a tool for digging, a vessel for water and even a weapon for beating unsuspecting spiritual people over the head (maybe you can relate). Ultimately, the elders decide the gods are crazy to send the bottle and they have to get rid of it because of it's disruption - send it beyond their small world. Thus begins the journey outward for one of the bushmen.

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Date: Fri, Mar 16, 2001 at 02:08:17 (GMT)
From: Pat Conlon
Email: None
To: Richard
Subject: The Gods Must Be Crazy- Khoi San not Bushman OT
Message:
The latter is a term of contempt like nigger. Like the Australian Aborigines, the South African Khoi live in a very different sensory world from ours. They have steatopygea which is that their rumps fill out like a camel's hump whenever they have eaten a lot. It then shrinks when they have no food. The men have a permanently semi-erect penis because of a cartilage and the women have a little skirt of skin in front of their vulvas. There language consists almost entirely of clicks.

For a real look at the Khoi read Laurens Van der Posts books. He also wrote ''Merry Christmas Mr Laurens'' based on his experience as a Japanese prisoner of war. It was made into a movie starring David Bowies.

Cargo Cults

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Date: Fri, Mar 16, 2001 at 00:01:29 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Richard
Subject: Speaking of movies, anyone seen Man Bites Dog? OT
Message:
I'm due to watch it again. Anyone seen it?
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Date: Fri, Mar 16, 2001 at 00:15:40 (GMT)
From: Jethro
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Speaking of movies, anyone seen Man Bites Dog? OT
Message:
Yes I've seen it.
When I first saw it, I was convinced that it was real footage. It was a very creepy feeling, a bit like I'd just seen a snuff-movie. It is now in our local library under the 'arts' section.

It's strange, my. now dead dad, said that if a dof biles a man then it's not news, but if a man bites a dof then it is news.
I'm not sure why I posted that, but my excuse is that I'm half asleep.

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Date: Fri, Mar 16, 2001 at 00:30:10 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Jethro
Subject: Well that answers that
Message:
Always wondered where that line came from, Jethro.

Like MY father used to say, no kidding.

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Date: Fri, Mar 16, 2001 at 07:37:04 (GMT)
From: Jethro
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Man bites dog NOT ot
Message:
Could it be post WW2/Jewish stuff?
My guess that someone like Winston Churchill said it. My father thought Churchill was great.

Regarding the movie, I do watch it about once a year.

The star could be compared to prempal in that he doesn't even try to hide his behaviour to his circle and even others, so why should he even begin to think he is doing anything 'wrong' since the silence of those around him is telling him he's ok.

(this is just me still trying to understand how I could have been fooled for so long, how I was anaethstatised(sp?) for so long.)

Jethro

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Date: Fri, Mar 16, 2001 at 15:36:09 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Jethro
Subject: Maybe, maybe not
Message:
this is just me still trying to understand how I could have been fooled for so long, how I was anaethstatised(sp?) for so long.)

Could be. Or it alsocould be just you trying to justify watching such a whacked movie once a year! The first time, we can explain away. You didn't know. The rest, Jethro ......

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Date: Fri, Mar 16, 2001 at 15:55:01 (GMT)
From: Jethro
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Yes, you are right. I do like wacky films.
Message:
I must ask my library why it is in the arts section.

By the way, how come you saw it?

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Date: Fri, Mar 16, 2001 at 17:01:57 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Jethro
Subject: I was looking for a snuff film
Message:
No, really, I think someone just recommended it. Not only can I not remember, I'm not sure I spelled 'recommended' right. The whole thing's kinda vague and murky.
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Date: Fri, Mar 16, 2001 at 17:32:35 (GMT)
From: Jethro
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Jim, by the way
Message:
when I saw JHB at the Latvian night nlast week, he promised me faithfully to send you the other wacky movies I sent you long ago. There's a good 8 hours worth there.
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Date: Fri, Mar 16, 2001 at 23:58:39 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Jethro
Subject: Thanks, I'll wait by the mailbox (nt)
Message:
ffffff
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Date: Thurs, Mar 15, 2001 at 14:50:21 (GMT)
From: Happy/Kaj
Email: kaj.bjorkqvist@abo.fi
To: Everyone
Subject: ok, me too ...
Message:
What the heck, I decided to come out in the open, too.
I started posting under the name Happy Heretic, shortened it
to Happy, haven't been posting very much lately, but I follow
with interest! My real name is Kaj Björkqvist, I'm from Finland, but I spent much of my premie time in Denmark, too, in the early 1970s.

If you want to know my premie history, read my journey under the name Happy,
if you want to know about the professional me,
I have a website: http://www.vasa.abo.fi/svf/up/kaj.htm

When I post in the future, I'll use my real name. Perhaps it will
encourage some of my Scandinavian friends to come forward.

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Date: Thurs, Mar 15, 2001 at 20:13:43 (GMT)
From: cq
Email: None
To: Happy/Kaj
Subject: ok, me too ...
Message:
Just re-read your Journey. Beautifully clear it is too.

The dream about M was fascinating:

'I dreamt that I was up in a high tower with M, and we got into a fist fight. I won, and I pushed him out of the
tower. He fell down towards the ground. During the fall, his shape changed into that of a plate. It reached the
ground, and broke into pieces. I climbed down the stairs from the tower. I took one small piece of the broken
plate, put it into my pocket, but left the rest lying there on the ground. And I continued my journey.'

Didn't he threaten premies with 'smashing into a thousand pieces' if they stopped practising? Sounds like your dream re-established your own autonomy on that issue!

I've bookmarked your website for when I get more time. I'm sure you must have a lot of interesting things to say about your field in relation to the exchanges on this Forum. Would love to hear more about what really constitutes bullying, and what motivation lies behind it.


And also this from your journey: 'Then I happened to see one of M's famous golden toilets in one his 'Divine Residences'. That was the third 'drip'
in my premie career. I understood that something was seriously wrong with his values. When one child starves to
death every fourth second in the world, and many of them in his own home country - how can he be pissing in
golden toilets?

You mean he's got more than one of these gilded potties? Jeez. Was it solid gold, like the rumours say, or just gold-plated (though even gold-plated is bad enough, considering that it was paid for with the sweat of people who donated their hard-earned cash to the a VERY different cause - like bringing 'world peace').
.
.
.

I'll end with a thought for today:

'If all the gurus in the world were laid end to end, would it be an improvement?'

Best,

Chris Giles (or rather Christopher Quartus Giles - hence 'cq')

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Date: Fri, Mar 16, 2001 at 15:00:54 (GMT)
From: Kaj
Email: None
To: cq
Subject: reply to cq
Message:
Chris,

the dream was an important one for me. When I started reading EPO, I actually had exed perhaps around 15 years ago. Still, I did not realize that I had pretty deep scars that had not healed completely.
Reading the Forum, some of the wounds opened up again, but were healed better. The dream was, to me, symbol for that.

The toilet you asked about was not solid gold, but gold-plated.
In the residence in Copenhagen, in the early 70s.

thanks for your kind words!

Kaj

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Date: Thurs, Mar 15, 2001 at 20:12:45 (GMT)
From: Pat Conlon
Email: None
To: Happy/Kaj
Subject: Kaj, thank you. I am happy for you NT
Message:
t
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Date: Thurs, Mar 15, 2001 at 19:12:27 (GMT)
From: Susan
Email: None
To: Happy/Kaj
Subject: Hello Kaj (neato name) nt
Message:
nt
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Date: Thurs, Mar 15, 2001 at 19:15:31 (GMT)
From: Kaj
Email: None
To: Susan
Subject: thanks! nt
Message:
nt
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Date: Thurs, Mar 15, 2001 at 17:04:53 (GMT)
From: Dermot
Email: None
To: Happy/Kaj
Subject: Did you or was it Jim who wrote that classic line
Message:
in your journey..... ' when I see shiny eyed people approaching me in the street with leaflets in their hands or whatever, I almost get aggressive ...'

haaa .....howdy mate.

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Date: Thurs, Mar 15, 2001 at 17:34:58 (GMT)
From: Kaj
Email: None
To: Dermot
Subject: Did you or was it Jim who wrote that classic line
Message:
yeah, that was me!
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Date: Thurs, Mar 15, 2001 at 16:57:28 (GMT)
From: Katie
Email: None
To: Happy/Kaj
Subject: Hi Kaj! (also welcome to Richard, Tony, and all)
Message:
Kaj, glad to see you under your real name. I have always liked your posts and other contributions to this site.

It makes me feel good to see everyone here coming out (those who CAN come out, that is). Welcome out to Richard, Tony, and of course Katie Darling (and maybe some other people I have missed in the last few weeks or so.)

Take care, all of you -
Katie (Haering) a.k.a. 'that other Katie' :)

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Date: Thurs, Mar 15, 2001 at 17:35:56 (GMT)
From: Kaj
Email: None
To: Katie
Subject: thanks! (nt)
Message:
nt
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Date: Thurs, Mar 15, 2001 at 16:58:52 (GMT)
From: Katie
Email: None
To: Katie
Subject: And Bryn, too (nt)
Message:
Hope I didn't forget anyone else.
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Date: Fri, Mar 16, 2001 at 15:08:43 (GMT)
From: Bryn
Email: bryndaviesesq@hotmail.com
To: Katie
Subject: Yes! I'm still here.
Message:
HereI am Here I am! Now I can speak, I can't think of anything to say.
love Bryn
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Date: Fri, Mar 16, 2001 at 18:17:31 (GMT)
From: Pat Conlon
Email: None
To: Bryn
Subject: Bryn, glad you're still here. NT
Message:
y
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Date: Thurs, Mar 15, 2001 at 16:36:51 (GMT)
From: Richard
Email: None
To: Happy/Kaj
Subject: Good going
Message:
I remember The Happy Heretic - great name. I hope you'll post often and who knows, maybe the Finns, Swedes and Norwegians will join in.

After coming out of the cold yesterday, I got one email from someone who obviously had read everything on the forum, even though they only posted once. So don't underestimate the impact and the number of people reading this.

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Date: Thurs, Mar 15, 2001 at 17:38:59 (GMT)
From: Kaj
Email: None
To: Richard
Subject: Good going
Message:
Yes, I am sure there several times more lurkers than posters.
I think there is a strong momentum (to use an old EV-term) now
for people coming out now. I mean, how can anybody in his/her sane mind believe in Rawat.
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Date: Thurs, Mar 15, 2001 at 16:33:06 (GMT)
From: Gregg
Email: binduesque@yahoo.com
To: Happy/Kaj
Subject: Beautiful Finland
Message:
I spent some time in Finland in the fall of 1972, while you were in India kissing toes. I spent time in Helsinki with a relative, saw Sonny Rollins, and then taught English for a month or two in Sakyla. Know where it is? I'd never lived in a small town anywhere, so it was an education.

Glad you've posted. Loved your 'journey' (read mine if you get a chance). Glad your life has turned out OK, although I was saddened to read of the divorce etc.

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Date: Thurs, Mar 15, 2001 at 17:42:24 (GMT)
From: Kaj
Email: None
To: Gregg
Subject: Beautiful Finland
Message:
Yes, I know where Säkylä is, I use to go thorugh there by train every now and then. Finland is very beautiful, lots of lovely nature. Myself, I live close to the sea, can watch the Baltic from my window. I like the islands myself, Finland has a great archipelago.

(the divorce was inevitable, and I have a much better life and wife since 9-10 years now, who never had anything to do with DLM/EV).

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Date: Thurs, Mar 15, 2001 at 15:29:36 (GMT)
From: Jean-Michel
Email: None
To: Happy/Kaj
Subject: Hi Kaj, GREAT contributor to 'my' website
Message:
anonymous up to this day!

Thanks a lot for all your contributions!

(This guy is a keeper of old stuff, and great India traveler.)

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Date: Fri, Mar 16, 2001 at 05:41:36 (GMT)
From: bill
Email: None
To: Jean-Michel
Subject: Your posts as happy were very good...nt
Message:
trk
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Date: Thurs, Mar 15, 2001 at 17:46:50 (GMT)
From: Kaj
Email: None
To: Jean-Michel
Subject: Hi Kaj, GREAT contributor to 'my' website
Message:
Thanks Jean-Michel, your work is absolutely fantastic. I loved to send you materials, that way it could reach so many more people. I am sure many exes still have a lot in their drawers and lockers that could be put up on your site. I think I have a tape or two, for instance a copy of a Q & A session with Rawat, 'The Hour of Craziness' from the late 70s. I have tried to find it, and when I do, I'll send it to you.
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Date: Thurs, Mar 15, 2001 at 15:33:41 (GMT)
From: michael donner
Email: None
To: Jean-Michel
Subject: Hi Kaj, GREAT contributor to 'my' website
Message:
hi kai...your journal was wonderful...i do think it might help others who perhaps know you to come out as well.
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Date: Thurs, Mar 15, 2001 at 17:49:22 (GMT)
From: Kaj
Email: None
To: michael donner
Subject: Re to Mike
Message:
thanks Mike, I think there should be quite o few Scandinavians from the 70s who know me quite well. If there are any of you reading this, please email me if you wish.
We have met too, Mike, but I don't think you would recognize me.
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Date: Thurs, Mar 15, 2001 at 15:28:49 (GMT)
From: Ulf
Email: None
To: Happy/Kaj
Subject: Any day now
Message:
HI kaj

Many things are different for me ,since we first
talked togheter on e mail.
I will come forward any day now
Best wishes Ulf

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Date: Thurs, Mar 15, 2001 at 17:51:51 (GMT)
From: Kaj
Email: None
To: Ulf
Subject: Any day now
Message:
Yes, the forum is very important for many people, and there is a clear process one has to go through.

Du må gerne sende email på dansk hvis du vil.

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Date: Thurs, Mar 15, 2001 at 15:33:23 (GMT)
From: Michael Dettmers
Email: dettmers@gylanix.com
To: Ulf
Subject: Any day now
Message:
Ulf,

Remember: 'never put off till tomorrow, what you can do today.'

Take care,

Michael

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Date: Thurs, Mar 15, 2001 at 14:45:46 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: Maybe m's drinking is/was a GOOD thing?
Message:
Perhaps this is off the wall, perhaps not. I'm thinking, though, that about what it was like being worshipped as the actual Lord of the Universe in Human Form, a concept I have to really think about to get again with all its overtones. It takes a minute to recall the real scope and impact of that crazy idea. But, yeah, I can remember. How could I ever forget? Anyway, I'm reading what the Mikes are saying about this and I'm thinking God, what if he didn't develop what I bet he first thought of as that 'cute, pixie-ish' side of being the teenage Perfect Master? In some ways, not having been there myself, of course, I can imagine Maharaji's drinking being, at first, just an expression of his independence from his Indian roots and defiance of his Indian handlers. It was, perhaps, just an extension of his 'hey-world-watch-me-eat-ice-cream!' cutesy-cutesy trip, albeit for a select and private audience. Teenage drinking, in a way. Indeed, like teenagers, maybe he drank at first as a sign that he wasn't all about ice cream anymore. (I doubt Baskin and Robbins would have been of too much assistance loosening things up those first days or nights with Durga Ji, Goddess of Love).

But maybe, all in all, his drinking was a blessing in disguise. What if, alternatively, Maharaji became a martial artist instead? Sure, I know one could argue that the discipline inherit in stuff like that only engenders good self-esteem and that, necessarily, would have been a healthy thing for the chubby little Hamster. But, you know, I'm not so sure about that. I'm not so sure that a guy who thinks he's the Creator Made Flesh needs to strengthen his will, needs to do anything, in fact, that's going to distort his sense of personal power, indeed, perfection, any more than it already was. My point is that Maharaji might have been even worse, even more deadly, if he hadn't slid into booze-drenched solipsism.

I guess what I'm saying is that, for those of us grateful that the whole thing fell apart in front of our eyes (a little slowly, perhaps, but fell apart all the same), it's a good thing that Maharaji was more like Yeltsin, instead of Putin. Who needs a 'perfect' Perfect Master anyway? I'm glad that Maharaji let his slip show so much! I'm glad that he made it so easy for us to see the cracks in the wall once we were willing to look!

Can you imagine if he was more careful and disciplined than that? Think about it. No gross avarice, no scandals. Instead, a sharp, focussed cult leader with a careful, watchful eye on the door and a sly, firm hand on the 'reigns' of our lives? No thanks! We might never have gotten out!

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Date: Thurs, Mar 15, 2001 at 15:29:32 (GMT)
From: Michael Dettmers
Email: dettmers@gylanix.com
To: Jim
Subject: Maybe Jim, but ...
Message:
Don’t forget that his mother, Mata Ji, disavowed him because she had either heard of or witnessed his drinking and his illicit liaison with that Western woman Marolyn, before they got married. In her view, Maharaji had taken an exit ramp off the spiritual super highway and, in doing so, lost his credentials and credibility as the Satguru or Lord of the Universe.

Imagine if little Maharaji had listened to his Mother. The “Holy Family” would probably have remained united. How many of us would have stayed around for another 10 or 20 years with that lot running the show? I believe that for most of us Westerners, the novelty of the whole trip would have worn off pretty quickly and we would have gotten on with our lives much sooner. If you have any doubts, just visit BBJ’s website. Maharaji, why didn’t you listen to your mother? Just think about all pain and suffering and wasted years that would have been avoided.

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Date: Thurs, Mar 15, 2001 at 15:52:36 (GMT)
From: michael donner
Email: None
To: Michael Dettmers
Subject: Maybe Jim, but ...
Message:
maybe jim (ever the devil's advocate)...first of all, what ifs are fun, but...

still doesn't address the side of things that i believe benefit us to look at more closely. What was it about US (me) that was attracted to this particular guru. i was speaking with an ex-premie/nstructor last nite on this subject. we had many choices in the 70's of various guru types and for reasons worth exploring (in my opinion) we chose m out of them all. as i have said in other places here recently, there was/is something in me that needed a guru exactly like m at that time. for me, a proported leader towards world peace who could also show me the center of myself to that i might be a better helper in the world saving business. something in me from my personal biography til then that needed a master type to be a servant of.

until those parts of myself grew up and wanted integration within a more mature whole of myself i could not leave. Perhaps if there were no contradictions increasingly apparent i might have left sooner you suggest. but there were all sorts of fundamental contradiction that i continued to ignore because the programming that i brought to the scene then was too strong.

even still, the remanents of world saving, servant exist within me and show themselves from time to time...within my primary relationships (giving my power away)and witnessed by what i find myself attracted to around me...and how i approach entering into play with those things (waldorf school, our community here, etc.)

there is a complete inter-play between the me that is growing and becoming and the 'world' around me and the mutual attraction continues to allow choices to assist me in growing my conscious self.

well, that is my story today and i'm gonna stick to it for another few minutes at least.

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Date: Thurs, Mar 15, 2001 at 19:49:48 (GMT)
From: Lesley
Email: None
To: michael donner
Subject: Hi, Donner
Message:
I received K in 1973 in London, lived in Australia since 1975, became an ex about nine months ago. I have been a forum participant for most of that time, having just recently taken a bit of time away.

I've read your posts, or most of them, I think, and there are two points that came up for me.

1 'The Messenger': That post really highlighted for me the way that Rawat keeps us all believing in him. The honchos and industrial strength church ladies try to implement what they think he wants, the pams spread gossip about how Rawat thinks the honchos etc are letting him down, and he gets up on stage and puts them all down, and thereby, though I am sure he is scathing about the pwickies in private, leaving the pwicks thinking that if it wasn't for all those bozos, Rawat would be happy and so would they! I find it particularly ironic considering the fact that he expended considerable public speaking time in telling us all that it was wrong to complain, even if your hair was on fire, and particularly wrong to badmouth people behind their backs. The only thing you should say about anyone, other than to their face, is a compliment, he proclaimed unctuously!

2. What made you pick this guru?: Look, it's not the question, but what you said about it that got me going. As Pat Conlon has suggested, he would at least be presenting himself more honestly if he wore fishnets and carried a whip. That is NOT why I chose him, that is not what I had in mind, subconscious or otherwise. That is simply the cardboard cutout relationship of puerile gratification that is left when the substance is gone. And where did the substance go? It was spent defending the lie, the plain godawful lie that Rawat perpetrates when he gets up on stage.

I am not saying that I had everything together until Rawat fucked me over, of course not. My personal theory is that we are a generation in therapy, recovering from the second world war!

Best Regards, Lesley, an ex who can put together some great fantasies, but KNOWS that she prefers substance.

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Date: Thurs, Mar 15, 2001 at 18:36:36 (GMT)
From: guy rollins
Email: guy@architx.com
To: michael donner
Subject: Maybe Jim, but ...
Message:
I was thinking along these same lines and remembering Yogananda (SRF), Yogi Bhajan, Maharishi, Satchinanda, all of whom I saw in the flesh (well not Yogananda -- just SRF) before ever seeing GMJ. I remember walking around a corner in Houston (with ex) finding an ashram (center?) and being attracted enough to go in.

Immediately left everything I was doing, which wasn't much, really, and heading off in this new direction. Got in a Blatz Beer truck headed to Denver, arrived at 1560 Race Street, was soon nominated to head up the Montrose construction crew and was off to Montrose.

Stood on a hill with a piece of cardboard over my head so that GMJ and Bob could see the corners of the land that had been rented for the GP festival. He landed and I was not awestruck. Quite the opposite. I'll always appreciate Jane Patterson for talking to me afterwards and grounding me.

Received knowledge at 1607 from Gurucharand with 100 others, including F and Claudia. Again was not awestruck, wondered if it had taken with me. Maybe I had natural immunity. Others seemed so much more blissed out (including ex). I thought maybe I (or Mahatmaji) had missed something.

Then went back to Montrose, built the stage and the darshan pavilion. Met many who I would work with in the future (for many years). The festival happened and lots of fun, but still not awestruck. Then darshan and holy breath and wow, that was it. I had a powerful experience that carried me for years. What happened? I don't know, but it was a real rush.

Over time I let a lot of other things 'not matter' because of the strength of that initial experience.

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Date: Thurs, Mar 15, 2001 at 18:20:10 (GMT)
From: Bobby
Email: None
To: michael donner
Subject: personal aspirations, world peace
Message:
Hi Michael,

Some things you have been hitting on prompt me to respond. You say:

for me, a proported leader towards world peace who could also show me the center of myself to that i might be a better helper in the world saving business.

I've been on an active quest since the sixties to come to terms with the 'center of myself'. A good deal of this comes vis aa vis with the 'world saving business'. These ideas continue to be alive and extremely relevant in my life.

Maharaji, the 'purported leader' came on for me in September of 1971. This followed my own openings following extremely powerful personal experiences in the sixties that almost killed me. These included near-death encounters. In 1971, my encounters with Ram Dass associations brought personal life-changing insights. Maharaji was the likely candidate for guru.

I went to India in 71 and became involved. Personally speaking, Maharaji never really fit the bill for me. There was always something missing, and even though I was an ashram resident for about a year, around the time of Millenium, I continued actively with spiritual search and study with the ranges of other spiritual material popping up all over at that time. I managed to read quite a bit of other spiritual teachings off the donated libraries of premies in my capacity as Divine Sales worker in the back room of the Divine Sales store in the heart of the East Village New York City. : )

Personally I was pretty much a bongo premie then just as I'm a bongo ex-premie now. I have different views than many here. The basis of my life is spiritual practice. I've been through a lot in my life, mostly recently 'terminal' cancer. My views are indeed very much in line with coming to terms with Self (or not self) and even deep connections with the state of the world. I try to help in my way, even if only a little.

After all these years I've managed to progress some, by no means finally. Still learning, learning a great deal and still on shaky ground, in some ways. However, I do feel I've found a basis in my life and for that I am very grateful. This basis is my active practice, Tibetan Buddhism.

So there are at least some of us, post-Maharaji, who continue a spiritual path. Authenticity is extremely important for me. Maharaji was never authentic I don't think, but at least the original parts of knowledge were and are, in my opinion. Whatever works to connect one to Love/Compassion and authentic Wisdom I think of as the path.

Michael, I also appreciate your history with prison. I'd be very interested in hearing more about your prison experience. I've done a little time myself, been in a few jails. I was jailed in the sixties for being with a black in the deep south and for possession of anti-war and other radical publications. Several years I wrote this story up and it's on the web:
Hitchhiking through the South

I've worked for many years in the field of mental health. I've worked in state hospitals and have worked directly with alternatives to the shameful treatment of psychiatric inmates. Many psychiatric hospitals have been like prisons and I've been there myself, having been confined to the back wards of psychiatric hospitals for several months 69-70.

There's a lot more I could say, but perhaps I've already said too much. Electronic venues and the written word have their limitations. Just want to say that I am impressed with your compassion and your apparent continued processing of inner experience.

Best to you,

Bob Manrodt (Bobby)

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Date: Fri, Mar 16, 2001 at 15:43:16 (GMT)
From: Richard
Email: None
To: Bobby
Subject: personal aspirations, world peace - great story
Message:
Whatever works to connect one to Love/Compassion and authentic Wisdom I think of as the path. - Saint Bobby

Thanks Bobby. With all the activity in the last couple of days, I just read your post. Amazing story and welcome (back) to posting here.

Richard

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Date: Thurs, Mar 15, 2001 at 19:57:03 (GMT)
From: Pat Conlon
Email: None
To: Bobby
Subject: Bobby, thanks for your post and the link
Message:
I am thinking of you with love.
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Date: Fri, Mar 16, 2001 at 10:22:44 (GMT)
From: Cerise
Email: cerise2@one.net.au
To: Pat Conlon
Subject: Bobby, thanks for your post and the link
Message:
I am thinking of you with love?

Goodness dear, no wonder you and Knowledge didn't get it on.

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Date: Fri, Mar 16, 2001 at 18:15:16 (GMT)
From: Pat Conlon
Email: None
To: Cerise
Subject: Cerise, whoever you are - I am thinking of you
Message:
with puzzlement.
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Date: Thurs, Mar 15, 2001 at 21:50:31 (GMT)
From: Katie Darling
Email: None
To: Pat Conlon
Subject: Hey Bobby
Message:
Really great post. I loved the part about being a bongo premie and a bongo ex-premie. I can certainly relate to being a bongo ex-premie. Spiritual practice has never stopped being the basis of my life, although my approach is completely different - embracing body, mind, emotions, and so on... as you know from our chats in other venues.

World-saving is also seemingly what I'm designed for––and recovering from etc... I'm gonna put up a new thread about this as it was also mentioned by Donner below and is kind of buried in this thread.

Great to see you posting bro.

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Date: Thurs, Mar 15, 2001 at 18:49:08 (GMT)
From: Francesca
Email: None
To: Bobby
Subject: Glad to see you posting, Bobby! n/t
Message:
thanks
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Date: Thurs, Mar 15, 2001 at 18:11:26 (GMT)
From: Gregg
Email: None
To: michael donner
Subject: Maybe, michael
Message:
Good question. Why did we choose M when there were other (more credible) gurus around. Maybe part of it was, as you suggest, a desire to be a part of a worldwide movement, rather than being stuck with some two-bit yoga teacher in a college town or something.

And here's the other thing: with that yoga teacher, it could be that we would be made more responsible for our own growth. As it was, despite our very real sacrifices, the underlying theology was that we were saved by receiving Knowledge.

Yes, very much like the born-again Christians. Join the fold of the saved, give your life to Jesus/Maharaji, and everything will be all right.

Most of us were young then. And as one can be said to be 'wise beyond his years,' most of us (me, anyway) were 'infantile beyond our youth.' Not having even a half-baked idea about how we were supposed to be a part of the fucked-up world that had birthed Nixon and Vietnam, it was easier to climb back into the comfortable womb of the cult than it was to come to grips with what it really meant to grow up.

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Date: Thurs, Mar 15, 2001 at 20:58:26 (GMT)
From: la-ex
Email: None
To: Gregg
Subject: two bit yoga teacher in a college town.Love it! nt
Message:
nt
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Date: Thurs, Mar 15, 2001 at 18:49:02 (GMT)
From: Susan
Email: None
To: Gregg
Subject: infantile beyond our youth. brilliant!
Message:
Gregg that was a GREAT post, I can relate, well said.
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Date: Thurs, Mar 15, 2001 at 18:26:59 (GMT)
From: donner
Email: None
To: Gregg and katie
Subject: Maybe, michael
Message:
good stuff here i think. of course, one of the big no nos with m was self examination or examination of any kind...only blind faith would do.

i think looking at our personal biography for insight into our past and current situations has been very good for me personally.
i have a partner/wife who will not tolorate my old blaming and scaegoating ways...thankfully. During the years of having my patterns challenged and looking at them more closely i was confronted with a similiar choice as with m in my marriage. a bit reversed however. was i willing to self reflect and stop projecting to save the relationship, or did i want to continue in my old patterns and lose the relationship.

becasue i had chosen m out of old (current, then) patterns of giving my power away...projecting my competence onto m, etc...so long as i did not change or question those patterns i could maintain the relationship with m. if i changed as a result of questioning those patterns (and where they had gotten me to till then) i would have to leave the relationsip. and as joe said below, the pain becasue impossible to ignore and the huge challenge was to be willing to change my personally distructive pattern....service to others, pleasing others at all costs to self, etc. and more.

i like the insight you have shared. naturally our biographies will be different...why we got involved in the first place and therefore how we came to leave. what a wonderful pallet of life.

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Date: Thurs, Mar 15, 2001 at 17:28:17 (GMT)
From: Katie Darling
Email: None
To: michael donner
Subject: Yeah, Donner, what was it in me that brought me to
Message:
that particular guru? Looking back, there were many much classier acts in town.

It's always amazed me, both in my life and in my clients' stories, how exact, complex and magnetic is the inner mechanism that causes me or someone else to attract exactly the situation that is unresolved within me. All those guys that either turned out to be exactly like my abandoning father, even though they didn't appear that way on the surface (fortunately this pattern has played itself out and I'm happily married). There is a funny story I heard in some therapy course that goes like this: A girl has an alcoholic father. She grows up and her first husband is, of course, a raging alcoholic. She eventually divorces him and marries a guy who drinks on Sundays. She perceives him as alcoholic and divorces him. Finally she marries a complete teatotaller and drives him to drink.

There's a whole new theory in biology or psychobiology about limbic attractors in mammals that pretty much imprint with what they first get (the gosling saying 'Are you my mother?' to the cow) and then get attracted to that or something like that for life. This isn't new news in the therapy world, but the new research (for example in the new book 'A General Theory of Love') is pretty compelling and actually can help one let oneself off the hook a bit about why we do this strange stuff. But then the thing is to actually, consciously change the limbic attractors which has been my whole exploration, both in leaving MJ and in changing my relationship and other patterns.

It's really amazing for me to learn about MJ's open marriage and his and Marolyn's experiments with other partners, because John and I were doing the same thing at the same time, feeling like bad premies and jerks, but feeling quite compelled to experiment in that way. Never did it before or since. I wish I'd known! I know in retrospect that I attracted MJ because he was a lot like my absent father - a divine-seeming being who claimed to be the one that loved me the most but actually (a) was never there, (b) wanted something from me and lost interest when he couldn't get it any more and c, d, e, f ... I had a close premie friend who was a PAM, whom you knew well, but I won't name here because she's gone back to MJ!!! who also, during the years she was an ex-premie, reported that he had exactly fit her unresolved father stuff, but in her case, he was always needing her to be around him, and overly invasive to her personal world (I don't know to what extent?), just the way her father had been. We used to laugh about how MJ had managed to fit the picture for both of us with our opposite fathers.

And then there's the world-saving stuff which you and I discussed offline, which I am also still dealing with, not so much in my personal relationships, but in the way I override my body to do my helping profession-type work. That was the atmosphere I was brought up in, and which really peaked in my DLM experience and which I am still winding down from.

It all feels really good though,

Love to all

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Date: Thurs, Mar 15, 2001 at 19:23:35 (GMT)
From: Francesca
Email: None
To: Katie Darling
Subject: Limbic attractors 'are you my mother'
Message:
That's a part of it! Great observation, quite astute and fitting for some of us lost children of the 60s. Find a need and fill it. I'm sure I had many problems back then (in the early 70s) that were out of control or I wouldn't have been suicidal. The funny thing is that I haven't had suicidal ideations since I decided to move out of the ashram 20 years ago.

When I received K, at first the meditation helped, because we all need some way to center ourselves and get into something deeper than life's appearances -- i.e. get into life's flow -- and that meditation, a vacuum is just fine (although I prefer other techniques and haven't practiced it for many, many years). But the wacky ideas that came along with the meditation fed all the problems.

So the peace was there at times, and the personal realization was there at times, but it was all jumbled up in some young woman's co-dependent sickness and the bullshit we were being told by Haharaji and his hapless instructors, who were as deluded and confused as myself. And of course there is a hopeless depression that comes because the goal is unnatainable. The whole relationship reminds me of a friend's ex husband who was a gang member. He said that he joined the gang to get protection, but that he needed protection because he belonged in a gang, so that after a while it was hard to tell which came first.

The fact that I had been a diehard atheist after leaving the Catholic church when I as 18 didn't help either, because I was convinced that life was a joke, and didn't go 'guru shopping,' in fact despised gurus, until my I opened up to the idea that a guru might be able to help, and because my sister was a premie, I said 'are you my mother!' to Haharaji.

So part of the problem is that the meditation helped, and Haharaji did his best to destroy whatever good it was doing in order to keep me a drooling, infantile servant. Well hon, I'm just too off the wall for that.

I remember that I hated the idea of gurus and masters and god. I remember that the PR for K when I first came around was 'god is energy. It is neither created nor destroyed.' There was a little poster that went along with it that I'm your your Denver PR folks will remember. It was more like Einstein's theory of relativity, and I could relate to the logic of it.

Part of the revalation that ended the sick relationship with M for me was that, at my darkest moment in the ashram (I can remember clearly the room I was in and the depths of my despair) I prayed to god, the creator, in the 'little piece of hopeless shit' persona I'd learned so well, in a desperate wail for help from the bottom of my being. I had been going on for what seemed like months, just praying to die in my sleep. A voice in the core of my being said 'remember holy name or DIE.' Then I knew that there was no god to save me, no Harharaji to save me, only my own connection to my true source. And I was the only one who could grab the rope. And god and guru weren't holding the rope. They could only at best point to it, tell me about it. I went on being a devotee for several years after that, as layers of the onion kept sloughing off, because although I'd had the realization, it was imploding for many years. As realization tend to do, for me.

Thanks Katie D. Love, f

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Date: Thurs, Mar 15, 2001 at 20:03:06 (GMT)
From: Katie Darling
Email: None
To: Francesca
Subject: Wow, Francesca, this is hot stuff
Message:
I was just on a hike with my husband and I was thinking about why my house hasn't sold (it's been on the market for too long and we're in big debt paying the mortgage, blah blah blah). I said, out loud, 'God, get your fucking thumb off me!' I knew and know that this isn't the way it works, but there is that little squished down persona that was incredibly CULTivated by being in the CULT that relates to the whole thing in a child/mean parent mode. Talk about the gosling effect!

And I loved this line from your post:
'I remember that I hated the idea of gurus and masters and god.'

Me too. I was doing great with yoga and macrobiotics and lots of deep breathing. I abhorred the whole thing of gurus and masters and god, lions and tigers and bears, oh no. Even when I got Knowledge, I was also sold on the whole 'God as energy' idea - my parents are atheist physicists, I thought I could make a decent limbic bridge. But no. I somehow fell in love with him when he arrived at Heathrow Airport, after waiting a day in the airport with a bunch of blissed out premies, for his plane to arrive. I was compltely resistant, but they dragged me to the airport, and somehow, during the 24 hour wait, I was 'broken' like a horse, and ready to project my entire imago/mother goose/father stuff right on his chubby (but to me divinely golden) face. I always thought of that moment as such a moment of intense magic and breakthrough. And I'm definitely not into making any of my life wrong. But it was more like being broken, now that I think of it.

Love Katie Darling

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Date: Thurs, Mar 15, 2001 at 22:27:16 (GMT)
From: Francesca
Email: None
To: Katie Darling
Subject: the airport experience
Message:
My first peek was also in an airport (Los Angeles). Think of it. Months of PR, waiting for K. In the 70s, hitchiking around only two or three Mahatmas in the whole US. All that satsang. Every night. All that bliss talk like the Millenium article Bazza posted. You have K. You're in a premie house. You're meditating. It's the 70s. Instead of dope and partying it's goohoo haharaji! WOW! My sweet Lard! It's an amazing system. We continued to brainwash ourselves and each other.

People telling you how f-ing incredible darshan is. And then you wait in line for hours, you hear satsang until you have no thoughts of your own in your own mind. You remember holy name, and then you see Him. Shining, golden, radiant. You should have seen the photo of how he actually looked at he strode through that airport. I have an 8 x 10 black and white so I will never forget. Grumpy, preoccupied. No golden. No shiny. Not even wearing that beautiful shining white suit with the wide lapels. Just wearing a kurta and dhoti (the old Indian pajamas). We probably made him as nervous as hell.

All I can think when I hear everyone talk is that we all sold ourselves a bill of goods. But we grew up, slew a few of our demons, got smart, got a clue. He didn't, he's stuck. He's surrounded by people who didn't get smart. They think we're crazy.

The ultimate attachment is investing so much in the dream that you can't face reality. At least I'm glad that it appears the majority of his flock of current and perennial followers make decent money. If it all comes crashing down, at least they'll have food and shelter.

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Date: Fri, Mar 16, 2001 at 06:29:10 (GMT)
From: bill
Email: None
To: Francesca
Subject: can we have that photo for the website??..nt
Message:
sfgjh
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Date: Fri, Mar 16, 2001 at 17:39:48 (GMT)
From: Francesca
Email: None
To: bill
Subject: tell me where to mail it ...
Message:
and I'll get around to it.

I've got a lot on my plate but you'll definitely get it.

--f

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Date: Thurs, Mar 15, 2001 at 22:59:16 (GMT)
From: Francesca
Email: None
To: Francesca
Subject: Katie -- one more on the airport
Message:
I left out a scary part.

View as a premie-ji: How divine and blissful that the vision I saw of Haharaji was not what appeared to be. It was a divine vision, something that was only seen by the 'heart' (still don't know what that 'heart' is we used to babble about -- now that my Lawrence Welk bubble machine broke it's more like brainwash to me).

View in more skeptical times: Hmmmmmmm. Interesting.

Current view: Yikes!

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Date: Thurs, Mar 15, 2001 at 16:51:13 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: michael donner
Subject: Okay, you can be 'mike' (he's Mike?)
Message:
Hi mike,

I know for a fact what attracted me to this particular guru. It was the notion that this wasn't just some guru. Just when I was starting to find such attraction in the whole 'Be Here Now' guru bullshit, and was kind of thinking of either finding a guru, letting the guru find me or, perhaps, realizing I already WAS the guru, all good choices I'm sure, along comes m who my friends told me was even BETTER than a guru. Irresistable!

Once I was in, like a Christian scared of the devil, I squared off against my mind and wouldn't leave for nothing until I just got tired of that fear and called its bluff. Short of that, it didn't matter how Maharaji seemed to shape his image or how the organization was evolving, I was in. As soon as that started to happen, though, I was out.

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Date: Thurs, Mar 15, 2001 at 16:59:18 (GMT)
From: donner
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Okay, tell me more please
Message:
about what was in you...what were you needing and wanting from someone else at the time....and how are you with that now within yourself...curious....and i'll be donner from now on. never liked mike by the way...funny how sometimes i introduce myself as michael and get mike back..wonder about that. anyway, not to digress from more useful discussion in the context of this forum.
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Date: Thurs, Mar 15, 2001 at 23:58:54 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: donner
Subject: More
Message:
Mike,

The need I thought I was trying to fulfill was, I believe, an illusory one. Spirituality offers an escape from our mortality and that's one good reason we pursue it. Maharaji persuaded me, at least, that the world offered nothing of substance. The 'spiritual world' within, on the other hand, had all I ever wanted.

I don't believe that at all now. I don't believe that there's any 'spiritual' world beyond the four corners of our brain. In that respect, I guess, I'm an existentialist. Whatever 'purpose' we have in life is what we give it. I'm just happy to be alive, in good health (knock wood), with my girlfriend and lots of friends and people I care about to work and play with. I enjoy the challenges of my work but I don't think that's for any greater reason than it's fun to be engaged in things and my work's engaging.

So, as far as what I hoped to get from Maharaji, that's all scratched at this point. I don't believe in it, don't want it and never think about it. Monday the pathologist testifies. This weekend we're going to mix a few more tunes. That's my world and it's enough.

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Date: Thurs, Mar 15, 2001 at 18:40:37 (GMT)
From: Susan
Email: None
To: donner
Subject: Hi Michael
Message:
I can relate to not liking Mike, as I am Susan ( not Sue, Susie, Suzette etc ) and feel the same way.

I think your discussion about what drew you into the cult is very to the point. I think we are all sensitive to the tendency to blame the victim, so we tend to not discuss whatever it was in us that made us vulnerable to this particular sort of con man. But I agree, most people, when first expose to the Maharaji cult, see it immediately for what it is, a cult, and Rawat for what he is, a greedy cult leader exploiting his followers. So why were we among the minority of people who got 'conned' or hooked, or fell for it, whatever. I think it is a very legit question, and one that any former cult member might want to explore.

If you have not read Steve Hassan's book, 'releasing the bonds' try to get your hands on it, it is full of great discussion about the proccess of extrication from a cult. He discusses the difference between a person's cult identity and authentic or pre cult identity. Many here have spoken of that epiphany moment when they realized the doubts they had been fighting and repressing as mind were really their true and authentic self trying to speak out. I think it is true, and how the game works for most of us.

But back to what made us vulnerable and Hassan's book.
He theorizes that cult use signifigant parts of the 'pre cult' identity to create the cult identity. I think his analysis says a lot about the things that drew us in.

The young child part- the need for an authority figure, a perfectly safe world with perfect parents..a fairy tale. It encourages regression to a child like way of being, and is very seductive and safe. That sense of a perfect family. This I would say was my major hook. I was 13 when I joined.

The idealist- children of the 60s who believed in a world of 'truth, goodness and justice'. The appeal to our idealism and dreams of working to create a better world was strong. And Hassan, a former moonie, says this 'this realization-the realization that Moon was the complete opposite of everything I belieed in-so repulsed me that I left the group'....sounds familiar.

The religous/spiritual part-Hassan says' My belief in God was altered to accept the Moon doctrine as the 'truth'. Ultimately, it was my faith in a God of truth who wants His childrento have free-will that played an important role in my decision to exit the cult'....( hush Jim ). I personally agree with Hassan, and would say it is the converse of Abbie Hoffman...if this guy is God, he isn't the kind of God I deserve. ( or anyone for that matter!)

The Warrior/Hero part- 'the universal theme of the hero who fights against Evil accounts for much of human history, art, and literature. The warrior/soldier mentality is another essential part of most cult identities. In a destructive cult, the soldier mentality is made to believe: I must follow the orders of my superiors, We are good, Our enemy is Bad, Sacrifice for the greater good makes you a hero' Although this was not a major factor for me, I think it was for a lot of DLMers I knew back then.

What do you think? Is these the sorts of factors you were thinking of?

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Date: Thurs, Mar 15, 2001 at 18:06:52 (GMT)
From: Joe
Email: None
To: donner
Subject: Okay, tell me more please
Message:
I know that some people who got involved with Maharaji were on some kind of spiritual quest, looking for spiritual fulfillment, and perhaps coming in contact with other Gurus. But that wasn't true for me, and it wasn't true for a lot of premies I knew, probably the majority of them.

For many of us, Maharaji was just the first Guru to come along, and if we bought into the 'only Perfect Master on the Planet' garbage, the search was over. We were pretty much kids, after all, in our late teens and early 20s, by and large.

I never felt attracted to Maharaji. I always thought he was a terrible speaker, rather incoherent, and although I thought he was kinda cute in the first few years, that went away as he didn't age very well. This was a source of a lot of pain for me in the super-devotional years between 1977 and 1983.

What I wanted was spiritual community, and a community that was going to do something to save the world. We were going to bring peace to the world, through some kind of nebulous plan that Maharaji had, and a lot of us in the early 70s, with the Vietnam War, Watergate, etc., were disillusioned about that happening in the regular political and social channels. I know I was. So, I figured, maybe through spirituality, and maybe because I believed in the inherent goodness of people, if they could just get in touch with their inherent goodness, through knowledge, I believed it could happen.

But, 'saving the world' died a pretty quick death after about 1976. Then is was dark, gloomy and fearful, and it was mostly fear that kept me in the cult after that. Fear, and maybe some hope that Maharaji did have some divine plan that I was just not advanced enough to understand. But the fear came right out of my Catholic upbrining. Even though I had rejected the Catholic Church, once a Catholic, always a Catholic, and Maharaji's fear-mongering had a receptive place in the recesses my Catholic-kid brain, as did the whole ashram monastic order, celibacy, discipline, denial of desires, grace, etc., etc.

Given that there aren't communities anymore, and it appears that Maharaji is trying to turn his dwindling group into a kind of yuppie-club, even if I hadn't left when I did in 1983, when I left simply because I was overwhelmingly miserable, I doubt I would have stayed around much longer. If there wasn't any community, and not even a pretense about 'saving the world,' there wouldn't have been much attraction for me, and the fear only goes so far.

I think Maharaji's sexual and alcoholism transgressions would also have gotten me to leave, if I ever found out about them, given that HE was the center of everything, but I never knew about any of that as a premie. I assumed Maharaji was the model and perfect example of Knowledge. I did have trouble with his obscene wealth, but rationalized using the 'lotus principle.'

Also, I agree that if Maharaji continued in the SatPal route, I don't think I would have stayed around either. Part of the attraction for me, was that Maharaji was becomming Western, and relatable. I never wanted a Hindu-spiritual trip, and was quite happy when the Holy Family broke up, as Maharaji seemed to be trying to Westernize his mission, and the Holy Family wanted to keep unnecessary traditions. If the famly hadn't broken up, all those pictures on the altars, I think, would have been a problem for me, and I think the premie group would have become very divided with even more differing loyalties among the members of the family as time went on.

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Date: Thurs, Mar 15, 2001 at 22:30:52 (GMT)
From: Katie Darling
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: Joe, you said it:
Message:
'dark, gloomy and fearful'

Those were definitely the worst years of my life after 1976. Up to about then or a bit earlier, the effects still seemed mostly positive to me. Enthusiasm, world-saving, love, community, sore eyeballs... oh well.

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Date: Thurs, Mar 15, 2001 at 17:18:26 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: donner
Subject: will answer later, gotta go now (nt)
Message:
ffff
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Date: Thurs, Mar 15, 2001 at 15:41:34 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Michael Dettmers
Subject: Hm, you can really look at this either way, no?
Message:
Funny you say that, Mike. Both speculations are plausible. If Maharaji had kept up his hindu trip a bit better some of us might have gotten bored and split but others might have just szettled into a life-long religion. I agree that it was very exciting following such an 'original' Lord of the Universe, as opposed to those old, boring and drab guys with beards (even though we all pillaged their myths like crazy when it suited us.)
Hm, hard to say.

At this point, anyway, it's so good that he's got such blatant vices. Thank you, Lord!

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Date: Thurs, Mar 15, 2001 at 23:34:19 (GMT)
From: Richard
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Ramtha, Mafu, Swift Deer, et al
Message:
Some people left BECAUSE Maharaji became sanitized.

There was a big group of premies in Miami who got involved in various other esoteric groups. Ramtha (JZ Knight), Mafu (Oregon) among others. You'd be suprised at the names who did that - but because I don't want to embarass anyone I wont name names.

There was a guy who breezed through Miami named Swift Deer who is half native and half Irish. Vietnam Vet among other things. One of his 'trainings' was called the Kedoshka (sp?) which involved everyone getting naked and Swift and his partner would walk around the room matching people up based on genital types (no I'm not making this up). The men would be 'teepee' or 'arrow' or whatever and the women were...... well you get the idea. Marriages were broken over this. Here's the point. One of my friends at the time said he really missed all the ritual and ceremony around M and that's why he started up with Swift Dude er Deer.

I'm sure many of the current PWK's are just peachy with the subtly implied divinity - easier to kep it under the hat so to speak. While others will pay big bucks to go to Amaroo with the outside chance of darshan.

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Date: Fri, Mar 16, 2001 at 00:07:11 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Richard
Subject: What??
Message:
Jesus Christ! The weirdest any community I ever lived in was Ottawa where a few premies got into Dale Carnegie ('How to Buy Friends and Influence People') for a bit and then got into Macrobiotics. We had lots of people showing up at satsang with burn marks next to their thumbs but not teepees OR arrows, I don't think.

Richard, if you ever DO name names, you have to separate them into teepees and arrows for us. I take it there were a few canoes and tiger lillies too, huh?

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Date: Fri, Mar 16, 2001 at 02:49:55 (GMT)
From: Richard
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: I forgot the punch line re: Swift Deer
Message:
X-Rated content. You must be 18 to enter!

Late one night I was watching HBO - the good channel. There was a show called Real Sex and who do I see featured but ... Swift Deer. He was doing a sex seminar in California (duh) and the upshot (pardon the pun that you'll get in a moment) was, everyone lay down in a circle and sort of humped the air until they reached orgasm. Didn't notice if any were premies but I may have not noticed their faces.

There was no Dale Carnegie discussion but it seemed like a great way to meet friends.

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Date: Fri, Mar 16, 2001 at 05:47:00 (GMT)
From: Francesca
Email: None
To: Richard
Subject: I forgot the punch line re: Swift Deer
Message:
I do know two premies that got into Swift Deer -- I think it was Harley Swift Deer, right?

Oy! Some pagan friends of mine got into sex rituals for a while, it was real hush hush. One marriage broke up and another one almost did over that stuff.

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Date: Fri, Mar 16, 2001 at 06:03:59 (GMT)
From: Richard
Email: None
To: Francesca
Subject: Harley Swift Deer - correct n/t
Message:
nt
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Date: Thurs, Mar 15, 2001 at 11:34:16 (GMT)
From: Tony Walker
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: Mon dieu.Zare are zo many posts,anz zo many
Message:
new people on zis site.What iz goingz on?It iz tres fantastique,non!

Cheers Tony (formerly Aussi ji)trying out my high school french which I was terrible at.can't you tell.

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Date: Thurs, Mar 15, 2001 at 16:08:09 (GMT)
From: Richard
Email: None
To: Tony Walker
Subject: Hey FA - can we get a hit count
Message:
Now inactive someone said 3.13.01 there were 10,600 or so hits and yesterday 3.14.01 was a record. Can you tell us how many hits there were? The hits just keep coming.

Thanks

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Date: Fri, Mar 16, 2001 at 05:43:22 (GMT)
From: Forum Administrator
Email: None
To: Richard
Subject: Hit counts
Message:
Notwithstanding all that technical stuff Brian said below (which is a bit beyond me) here are some current numbers:

Messages Read Today: 2762
Average Per Hour: 487

Average Per Day: 4517

Busiest Day: Thurs, Mar 15, 2001
Messages Read: 11779

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Date: Fri, Mar 16, 2001 at 06:13:22 (GMT)
From: Richard
Email: None
To: Forum Administrator
Subject: Messages read - thanks FA
Message:
I probably read 3,000 myself =;>}
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Date: Thurs, Mar 15, 2001 at 16:43:29 (GMT)
From: donner
Email: None
To: Richard
Subject: Hey FA - can we get a hit count
Message:
i have been wondering such things as well...seems to be about maybe 20-30 folks particpating in past weeks on this site...is there any way that hits can be tracked that show DIFFERENT hitters. how many different people hit this site on any sort of regular basis? any way of knowing that.
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Date: Fri, Mar 16, 2001 at 00:54:17 (GMT)
From: Brian
Email: brian@ex-premie.org
To: donner
Subject: Hey FA - can we get a hit count
Message:
is there any way that hits can be tracked that show DIFFERENT hitters. how many different people hit this site on any sort of regular basis?

It's probably possible to do that, but that info isn't being tracked. Only the number of messages read.

I've seen site stats in the past that indicate that the server might be able to sort out and keep track of separate sessions. The compiled stats had a 'Unique users visiting the site' category, but I don't know how that determination was made.

Maybe some reliable info is available to the server via header info and maybe to the forum software via environment variables (if they exist and if the server is configured to set them), but I guess that I've never been curious enough to take the time needed to study it and write the code.

The software could also track users via session cookies, but that would just trip paranoia switches in lurking premies and recent exes. I lurked for a week before I ever posted, and wouldn't have been happy to know that I was being tracked by someone. Smacks of maharaji.org to me.

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Date: Fri, Mar 16, 2001 at 01:56:05 (GMT)
From: Alan Fenstermacher
Email: alan@woodcon.com
To: Brian
Subject: Hey FA - can we get a hit count
Message:
Brian,
I know some of the boards that I advertise on for industry specific items give me unique visit counts and if the user moves between multiple boards they count it as one site visit whereas some boards count each message read as a visit. On the boards we advertise on the read to post ratio is at the most 95/5, ie 5 out of 100 post at the most. Some boards that use DC scripts actually track the number of times a message has been read. As the original 'Ben Lurking (I have Been Lurking)' I know I lurked here quite awhile before posting and my first posts were just looking for old friends rather than the status of M. The last few months since the M.D.'s started posting the quality and veracity of the information has really improved. It would be interesting to how many were reading/posting each month.
Alan
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Date: Fri, Mar 16, 2001 at 02:28:27 (GMT)
From: Pat Conlon
Email: None
To: Alan Fenstermacher
Subject: Hi Alan nice to know you were Ben Lurking
Message:
I noticed another post of yours in the riot that was yesterday and then forgot. You chose a very modest outing. Thank you all the same.
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Date: Fri, Mar 16, 2001 at 02:18:27 (GMT)
From: Richard
Email: post@rmi.net
To: Alan Fenstermacher
Subject: Alan - your name is familiar
Message:
Denver? Tall with curly hair? Profesional before professional was cool?

You kind of snuck in the midst of the hysteria yesterday - so welcome.

Richard

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Date: Fri, Mar 16, 2001 at 06:35:14 (GMT)
From: Alan F.
Email: alan@woodcon.com
To: Richard
Subject: Alan - your name is familiar
Message:
Denver, yes, tall yes, straight hair, not a professional back then. I arrived in 1973 to work on the Kittridge building for 3 weeks as a carpenters helper/ laborer / do all, learned I was supposed to live in the ashram if I wanted to do service so I lived on the 7th floor of the Kittridge building and was in the
ashram. Left the ashram / was laid off in winter 76 or early 77 when the Denver Unity School construction was complete. Was active as a premie until about 1980. Got a real job that required
steady attendance in 78 and drifted away. Found this site about 2-1/2 years ago when I started looking for old friends on the net. Although some people knew who I was I never wanted to use my real name on the forum - fear of hammer wielding Hindus I guess. I remember when I went and looked at whatever site M had at the time it showed the small town I live in as a location for a meetings (Indian/Hindu) and some of the premies were pretty adamant back then so I just kept my name quiet.

Guy is actually the first ex-premie on this site that I knew / worked with and remembered and I couldn't very well say hello unless I identified myself.

When you realize how much time and energy was wasted in the devotional end of being a premie it can take its toll. The just meditate or it’s a lila answers to problem solving doesn't foster strong interpersonal skills and it took a few years to overcome that cop out and realize what it was so when I found this place I wasn't exactly fond of M and wasn't really interested in premies other than finding a few old friends.

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Date: Fri, Mar 16, 2001 at 06:55:32 (GMT)
From: Richard
Email: None
To: Alan F.
Subject: Alan - Kittredge Building
Message:
I came up from Tallahassee summer of 73 to design publications and that 6th floor construction was under way. There were some other Tallahassee folks on that crew too. Didn't John Finegan have a Bach herbal flower healing room up on the 7th floor also? I heard he passed away a few years back. Your name rang a bell - never met another Fenstermacher I must admit - but it was 28 yars ago - yikes. I did my time on whatever floor the art room was - old jewelry store. Anyway, the persistence of memory, eh? It helps a huge amount to just remember this stuff and let it go.

Welcome and I hope you'll post more.

Richard

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Date: Thurs, Mar 15, 2001 at 16:45:36 (GMT)
From: Richard
Email: None
To: donner
Subject: Hey Donner, I thought you weren't a geek n/t
Message:
nt
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Date: Thurs, Mar 15, 2001 at 18:29:13 (GMT)
From: doner
Email: None
To: Richard
Subject: Hey Donner, I thought you weren't a geek n/t
Message:
am not, am to, am not...really interested in an honest look at the potential impact of what we are spending some time on these days.
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Date: Thurs, Mar 15, 2001 at 18:44:07 (GMT)
From: Richard
Email: None
To: doner
Subject: Yes, the impact is growing
Message:
Thanks to a lot of hard work by the oldtimers who started this and the newcomers contributing new details. Critical mass is growing to change premie opinion.

Sort of like the Hundredth Monkee idea. In evolution theory (not my area a but cool story) if a few monkees on one island change behavior by say, washing a banana before eating it, monkees on the inaccesible neighboring island won't change their behaviour. But, the theory says, once the 100th monkee picks up the same behavior, all monkees including ones on the next island, will do the same. Critical mass gets reached and the collective conciousness kicks in. Hmmm does sound a bit new-agey but an elegant idea nonetheless. A -peel-ing really.

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Date: Thurs, Mar 15, 2001 at 20:51:51 (GMT)
From: la-ex
Email: None
To: Richard
Subject: Richard, about them monkeys....
Message:
Richard-

I swear, I was going to post the same '100th monkey' analogy as you just did. Just before I started to write, I read yours. Maybe that makes me the 100th ex-premie....

That story, indeed a bit too new agey for many, was supposed to be true, but was later debunked, as never having occurred...

Anyway, the idea of a 'critical mass' is along the same lines, and I think this thing is 'snowballing' or 'whirlpooling'(better analogy, as it implies a downward descent into a sewer, generally...)into the end as we have known it, for the big m...

Actually, I have heard some rumors from some mid level honchos in the last year or so, words to that effect, that m would go into semi retirement, and that it would change forever...

Ah yes, the new era of 'auto knowledge'...
Exciting isn't it?

la-ex

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Date: Thurs, Mar 15, 2001 at 22:26:51 (GMT)
From: Katie Darling
Email: None
To: la-ex
Subject: About monkeys and chaos theory and stuff
Message:
Although the monkey story was debunked, there is still Sheldrake's morphogenetic field theory which is based on real double-blind studies of real fruit flies etc. who learned skills dramatically more quickly in one place when other members of their species had been taught them elsewhere. It was too far for them to fly, etc. I can't remember the details. I met Sheldrake recently: he is cool. I guess for 'species' in this case one could insert 'premie/ex-premie' which definitely seems to have its own morphogenetic field, and which I am quite sure we are influencing, since we are still very connected to it. They will feel our breakthroughs where they might be immune to people who have never experienced the whole thing trying to wake them up from it.

Also in chaos theory, my big area of interest, there is the idea of bifurcations that occur quite suddenly, after a certain critical mass occurs. A system (like weather) can bifurcate and unfold in a completely different direction when it receives a certain input of turbulence at a certain time. The thing is, no one can predict this, which is why it's called chaos theory. It feels to me as though we are in one of those times regarding the system called Maharaji's sphere of influence, whether you call it a cult, or a belief field or a blob. MJ's tour of Lordship is some kind of living system that started with amazing energy, has continued in a kind of looping stagnation, and may be on the verge of dissipation due to the powerful awareness that is emerging from people who have completed their tour of duty in it (i.e. us, the Post Knowledge Care team!). Every day someone says something here or on the other forum that pops another bubble, and I am sure this is having an influence at some level.

It feels kind of exciting, almost like when I first got involved.

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Date: Thurs, Mar 15, 2001 at 22:40:08 (GMT)
From: Richard
Email: None
To: Katie Darling
Subject: chaos theory and stuff
Message:
Yes Katie, brilliant but can you make a double tall skinny mocha and do nectar at the same time? Kidding - great update on the monkeys.

some kind of living system that started with amazing energy

That is so true and when I looked at that picture of myself at Montrose I could recall the body rush of potential. And then I became sad at the lost opportunity. Damn it was powerful and as I said eleswhere - we took that amazing potential and huge levels of inspiration and laid it at M's feet so he could save the world. Problem is, he took that mandate and instead of saving the world, he invested in himself.

That potential is still there - we brought it - we've still got it. And I do feel a big wave of energy filling me now I haven't felt in along time. Partly due to letting go of Postie my mask I'm sure. Halleluja southers and blisters!

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Date: Thurs, Mar 15, 2001 at 22:47:43 (GMT)
From: Katie Darling
Email: None
To: Naked Richard
Subject: To Naked Richard from Naked Katie ... nectar
Message:
It does feel kind of exciting, doesn't it? We came out together, how special!

Can't make mocha whatsit, but can and still do the whole nectar shebang a lot. I never really got inspired by MJ's world to do it much, after the K session. But then, in my boredom (it was so great to read Donner's boredom post!) I read all kinds of esoteric books and stretched my tongue and it bifurcated up to my third eye, and I must say, it is absolutely fabulous darling. I never associate it with MJ at all. I find it to be a great way of centering, occasionally, especially if I'm somewhere a bit stressful for my delicate bod, like in Manhattan, as I was recently.

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Date: Thurs, Mar 15, 2001 at 19:18:49 (GMT)
From: Joe
Email: None
To: Richard
Subject: A little History/Analysis
Message:
I no longer have access to the number of hits on the website, but this is how it used to work. Maybe somebody can correct me if I'm wrong.

I believe the counter counts the number of 'messages read.' Everytime somebody opens a message there is a count, or at least that's the way it used to be.

This website (the earliar incarnations) began in the Spring of 1997. I remember that in 1998/1999, sometimes 5000 messages were read in a single day, amd that might go up to 6000 or 7000 at certain times. Sometimes more, sometimes less. If eacj person read an average of 25 messages, that meant that approximately 200 people were on the Forum that day. If that is now up to over 10,000, that would mean maybe 400 people on the Forum that day. That is probably conservative, and it doesn't count people who go onto the website, I don't think, and read what's there, or read the archives, etc.

Hundreds of people have posted on the Forum at different times, and dozens of people have come forward saying they had been reading for awhile and were revealing themselves as new, 'ex-premies.' But there appear to be a lot more people at any one time who are 'Lurkers,' than those who actually post. In my opinion, most of those people are premies, probably wavering premies.

There just aren't that many people who even care about Maharaji. Just premies and ex-premies for the most part, so if hundreds of people are reading messages everyday, it can't help but be having an impact.

The other thing I have noticed is that there are a more people posting now, and I, for one, just can't keep up, so I'm pretty selective about the posts I read. Things are just happening to fast now.

From what I have observed, the premies who come around the forum, with a couple of notable exceptionsm, are by far the most paranoid about revealing their identites.

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Date: Fri, Mar 16, 2001 at 02:17:34 (GMT)
From: Katie
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: Thanks, Joe - good analysis
Message:
I should preface this by saying that I'm somewhat averse to doing any more tracking on the site lest it scare people away. But for a long time, the pattern seems to have been been that far more people read than post. (This happens on lots of other message boards too - on another board I post on, someone made a thread for lurkers to 'sign in' and got over 100 people! Of course, a lot of people who read here wouldn't 'sign in'.)

Brian also gets 'thank-you' e-mails from people who have used the site to break free and have never posted on the forum. He's even gotten some from people from other, similar, cults. That's one of the reasons that Journeys entries are so important (hint, hint!).

I was just commenting to Brian tonight that soon we will have to use our last names to identify ourselves when we post here. This place has come a long way since Forum I.

Take care, Joe -
Love,
Katie

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Date: Fri, Mar 16, 2001 at 02:23:21 (GMT)
From: Pat Conlon
Email: None
To: Katie
Subject: Thanks, Katie - good analysis
Message:
You said: ''...soon we will have to use our last names to identify ourselves when we post here.''

I've been saying the same thing tho Charles. There are 3 Michaels, 2 Katies, 2 Charles, 2 Patricks etc.

In the old days when you all knew each other it was fine but I think to make things clear for newcomers it would help to post a full name and I hope others will see the need for that.

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Date: Fri, Mar 16, 2001 at 04:05:22 (GMT)
From: Katie
Email: None
To: Pat Conlon
Subject: My name is Katie Haering
Message:
Katie Darling and I have a real problem - same nickname, same GIVEN name (Kathryn), and rhyming last names with same number of letters!

On another forum, I just use Katie H - is that OK with you :)?

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Date: Fri, Mar 16, 2001 at 04:51:07 (GMT)
From: Katie
Email: None
To: Katie
Subject: P.S. to Pat - help me pick a posting name
Message:
(There are THREE Patricks here, BTW :). At least!)

My name when I was a premie was 'Mischa'. Joe Whalen will make jokes about this, but that's why that is on my Journey entry - and it is the only name that anyone I knew when I was a premie will recognize me under. So whaddya think? Should I use Katie H., Katie Haering, OR Katie/Mischa? (I just want everyone to know it's me and not welcome me to the forum!)

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Date: Fri, Mar 16, 2001 at 06:35:05 (GMT)
From: Pat Conlon
Email: None
To: Katie
Subject: I vote for Katie-Mischa
Message:
with a dash not a slash
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Date: Fri, Mar 16, 2001 at 13:27:40 (GMT)
From: Katie
Email: None
To: Pat Conlon
Subject: Thanks, Pat - I'll think about it
Message:
Will you defend me when Joe Whalen starts teasing me, though :)?
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Date: Fri, Mar 16, 2001 at 18:08:39 (GMT)
From: Pat Conlon
Email: None
To: Katie
Subject: Yes, Katie-Mischa. We can find something to
Message:
counter-tease him. I know we can.
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Date: Fri, Mar 16, 2001 at 04:27:43 (GMT)
From: Katie Darling
Email: None
To: Katie
Subject: The Katie dilemma
Message:
Yeah, a big problem, not to mention that we are both recovering apocalyptics, as we just discovered, with parents involved in warmongering.

Katie, I've got this shorthand program now, so I just touch a coupla keys and it says Katie Darling so I'll just stick with that and you can be Katie H or just Katie, as you wish.

Everyone should get this program - Spellcatcher, which allows you to create your own shorthand so that typing words you often type is much quicker. Ts s t v tg tt im dg rt now. That last sentence, during which I turned of the program, says This is the very thing that I'm doing right now, except it was about a third of the stress on the old wrist.

And with the amount of posting I'm doing today, that is important!

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Date: Fri, Mar 16, 2001 at 04:32:32 (GMT)
From: Katie H.
Email: None
To: Katie Darling
Subject: The Katie dilemma
Message:
Katie H. is fine with me, as long as people know who I am. I fear Brian will ALWAYS use 'Brian' though :). Someone else called him 'Original Brian' (snicker).

I have gotten to be a very fast typist (with lots of fast backspacing) because of e-mails and the web. The shorthand program sounds great though!

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Date: Thurs, Mar 15, 2001 at 07:09:22 (GMT)
From: Francesca
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: I made my own get smart card
Message:
Postie and Jean-Paul made me want to join the club, but I didn't want to wait 10 months like they did. Sounds like waiting for knowledge, though at some points 10 months was e-z.

Mine's not as charming as Jean-Paul's and Postie's but I think I have been influenced by eDrek and salam.

My smart card

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Date: Thurs, Mar 15, 2001 at 17:21:59 (GMT)
From: Francesca
Email: None
To: Jean Michel
Subject: Apologies Jean-Michel for calling you JeanPaul n/t
Message:
sorry
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Date: Thurs, Mar 15, 2001 at 08:24:04 (GMT)
From: Pat Conlon
Email: None
To: Francesca
Subject: Your card's much smarter
Message:
I'm glad you kept that pic of Capt Rawat. Actually I don't like using ''Captain'' because it's the sort of thing he would say about himself you know: ''This is Captain Filament speaking. I am your pilot. The passengers can't fly the plane. So sit back and relax and let the Captain take you there to THAT place.''

Well, once upon a time I believed that sort of nonsense. I somehow don't think human beings are in some way defective and in need of some agent outside of themselves to provide for anything essential. If that were the case then we have indeed been created by a monster.

There's no need for Masters, gurus, preachers or pundits. We're quite capable of understanding anything essential on our own (and maybe with a little help from their friends.)

Janet is right. Let's put a black toothbrush on his lip. ''Seek help, Uberfuhrer.''

Did you see the SmartCards I made for me and Thelma?

Thunderstealing SmartCards

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Date: Thurs, Mar 15, 2001 at 14:01:21 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Pat Conlon
Subject: Those are so funny!
Message:
How'd you guys break into the smart card factory like that? Too much.
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Date: Thurs, Mar 15, 2001 at 07:30:06 (GMT)
From: janet
Email: None
To: Francesca
Subject: put a little mustache on him and mach schnell
Message:
seek help! seek help!
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Date: Thurs, Mar 15, 2001 at 07:22:48 (GMT)
From: Joe
Email: None
To: Francesca
Subject: Hysterical! (nt)
Message:
nt
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Date: Thurs, Mar 15, 2001 at 16:03:52 (GMT)
From: Richard
Email: None
To: Francesca, Pat and Thelma
Subject: Francesca, Pat and Thelma - Hysterical!
Message:
I see a biz opportunity here. GetSmart cards for ex premies.

Let's see...in the USA alone maybe 50,000 ex's at say $29.95 that's hmmmmm a lotta dough!

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Date: Thurs, Mar 15, 2001 at 23:31:32 (GMT)
From: Katie Darling
Email: None
To: Y'all
Subject: Brilliant. How do you do that? Please...
Message:
I want to do one, but I have no idea how to make a link. Could someone enlinken me?
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Date: Fri, Mar 16, 2001 at 01:56:10 (GMT)
From: Pat Conlon
Email: None
To: Katie Darling
Subject: To make a link, Katie...
Message:
If I just typed out the sequence of keys necessary they would not be visible as the software that runs the forum recognizes html (hyper text mark-up language)and it would become invisible so I'll give you the idea behind it.

Say for instance you want to make a link to the following website.

http://www.bartleby.com/65/ca/cargocul.html

You need to put this before it. Type < then A then HREF then = then ''.I had to write it that way to avoid it being interpreted as html.

and this after ''>

Then you type in the name of the website such as Cargo Cults

Then you type another<

and then /A>

It will look like this

Cargo Cults

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Date: Fri, Mar 16, 2001 at 03:33:45 (GMT)
From: Katie Darling
Email: None
To: Pat Conlon
Subject: To make a link, Katie...
Message:
Thanks a lot. I've copied that for future ref. Now how do you make a little website to guide people to? I've got my biz one, but I didn't do it, and I'd like to be able to just put funny pics etc. up in a little special place to put links to, like you do.

BTW, Postie made me a smartcard from my biz website when he read my question, the sneak! At least I look mahvellus!

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Date: Fri, Mar 16, 2001 at 04:39:13 (GMT)
From: Pat Conlon
Email: None
To: Katie Darling
Subject: To make a website, Katie...
Message:
You do look marvelous in that pic and almost exactly the way I imagined you would but then of course I have seen your face before. I never forget a face. Probably at one of the festivals in the 70s.

To make a website go to geocities and sign up for one. You will get a free site and email. There are instructions for creating a site as well as ''templates'' and other stuff for people who don't know html.

Yahoo/Geocities

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Date: Sat, Mar 17, 2001 at 00:33:46 (GMT)
From: moldy warp
Email: None
To: Pat Conlon
Subject: To make a website, Katie...
Message:
Thanks for your info on how to make links and web sites. I've saved your info and will try it for myself sooon xxx
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Date: Sat, Mar 17, 2001 at 01:32:32 (GMT)
From: Pat Conlon
Email: None
To: moldy warp
Subject: To make a website, Moldy
Message:
I was just thinking about you - that I hadn't seen you here for a few minutes. Ha ha.
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