Forum V: Archive
Compiled: Sun, Mar 18, 2001 at 17:05:07 (GMT)
From: Mar 13, 2001 To: Mar 17, 2001 Page: 4 Of: 5


Jean-Michel -:- Wanna see my brand new SmartCard? -:- Wed, Mar 14, 2001 at 16:15:59 (GMT)
__ AJW -:- Tu es un mauvais garcon Jean-Michel. -:- Thurs, Mar 15, 2001 at 12:13:01 (GMT)
__ Robyn -:- Wanna see my brand new SmartCard? -:- Thurs, Mar 15, 2001 at 03:33:45 (GMT)
__ Pat Conlon -:- Wanna see my brand new SmartCard? and Thelma's -:- Thurs, Mar 15, 2001 at 02:58:30 (GMT)
__ __ AJW -:- Hey Pat, -:- Thurs, Mar 15, 2001 at 12:27:26 (GMT)
__ __ __ Pat Conlon -:- Hey Anth, I send you a copy privately NT -:- Thurs, Mar 15, 2001 at 19:12:13 (GMT)
__ __ Francesca -:- Thelma you are a 'looser'! Bravo n/t -:- Thurs, Mar 15, 2001 at 07:20:06 (GMT)
__ __ Francesca -:- Watch out Thelma -- rawat will be -:- Thurs, Mar 15, 2001 at 07:16:52 (GMT)
__ __ Dickie Pwickie -:- You're gonna' burn for that Thelma -:- Thurs, Mar 15, 2001 at 03:04:23 (GMT)
__ __ __ Luke Pewk -:- Thelma is always welcome back. The doors are open -:- Thurs, Mar 15, 2001 at 04:06:22 (GMT)
__ Joe -:- With all due respect -:- Wed, Mar 14, 2001 at 22:54:15 (GMT)
__ __ Marianne -:- J-M's SmartCard -:- Wed, Mar 14, 2001 at 23:50:53 (GMT)
__ __ __ michael donner -:- J-M's SmartCard -:- Thurs, Mar 15, 2001 at 00:17:42 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Tonette -:- More than just a photo -:- Thurs, Mar 15, 2001 at 09:32:08 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Richard -:- Can't post ... driving to Portland ..... -:- Thurs, Mar 15, 2001 at 18:15:12 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ jondon -:- Could'nt be too hard to get... -:- Thurs, Mar 15, 2001 at 00:59:56 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Tell Man -:- Could'nt be too hard to get... -:- Thurs, Mar 15, 2001 at 04:33:19 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Forum Administrator -:- Tell Man - a word please -:- Thurs, Mar 15, 2001 at 04:49:00 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Pat Conlon -:- Tell Man - did you see the movie 'Chuck and Buck?' -:- Thurs, Mar 15, 2001 at 04:59:09 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Tell Man -:- Tell Man - a word please -:- Thurs, Mar 15, 2001 at 04:58:16 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Forum Administrator -:- Tell Man - a word please -:- Thurs, Mar 15, 2001 at 05:04:55 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Joe -:- J-M's SmartCard -:- Thurs, Mar 15, 2001 at 00:47:41 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Joe -:- Addendum -:- Thurs, Mar 15, 2001 at 00:55:54 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Richard -:- What's a SmartCard you ask? -:- Thurs, Mar 15, 2001 at 00:46:55 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ michael donner -:- smart card and failure -:- Thurs, Mar 15, 2001 at 01:00:10 (GMT)
__ __ __ Joe -:- Yeah, how DID J-M get that card? -:- Thurs, Mar 15, 2001 at 00:05:07 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Marianne -:- Can you get a SmartCard too? Yes! -:- Thurs, Mar 15, 2001 at 09:12:08 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Bazza -:- Can you get a SmartCard too? Yes! -:- Thurs, Mar 15, 2001 at 15:03:10 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Joe -:- Can you get a SmartCard too? Yes! -:- Thurs, Mar 15, 2001 at 19:42:11 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Pat Conlon -:- Marianne, send me your pic and I'll make it -:- Thurs, Mar 15, 2001 at 09:54:01 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Marianne -:- I already have a SmartCard -:- Thurs, Mar 15, 2001 at 18:09:24 (GMT)
__ Postie -:- Here's mine -:- Wed, Mar 14, 2001 at 20:00:53 (GMT)
__ __ Bin Liner -:- Great new specs Postie (nt) -:- Wed, Mar 14, 2001 at 23:09:18 (GMT)
__ Roger eDrek -:- EV is so sick! -:- Wed, Mar 14, 2001 at 19:21:17 (GMT)
__ __ cq -:- seen M's paper roses yet? (only imitation) -:- Wed, Mar 14, 2001 at 20:38:36 (GMT)
__ __ __ Katie -:- They shut the door, Chris... -:- Thurs, Mar 15, 2001 at 16:52:26 (GMT)
__ Jean-Michel -:- Just added EV's info about it ! -:- Wed, Mar 14, 2001 at 17:24:43 (GMT)
__ Jim -:- I think I can see the microchip -:- Wed, Mar 14, 2001 at 17:21:22 (GMT)
__ Charlie -:- Guess what? -:- Wed, Mar 14, 2001 at 16:45:07 (GMT)
__ __ AJW -:- Parisiens don't tip Charlie. (nt) -:- Thurs, Mar 15, 2001 at 12:24:33 (GMT)
__ __ Brian -:- Green with envy -:- Wed, Mar 14, 2001 at 18:25:05 (GMT)

Bryn (aka Bongo) -:- If anyone is interested -:- Wed, Mar 14, 2001 at 12:57:38 (GMT)
__ Dermot -:- Yo Bryn....hi and welcome and JHB (hi again ! ) nt -:- Wed, Mar 14, 2001 at 18:00:06 (GMT)
__ Loaf -:- Bryn.. is it reallly YOU ?? -:- Wed, Mar 14, 2001 at 17:22:05 (GMT)
__ Charlie -:- If anyone is interested -:- Wed, Mar 14, 2001 at 14:56:52 (GMT)
__ JHB -:- If anyone is interested -:- Wed, Mar 14, 2001 at 13:57:00 (GMT)
__ __ Bryn -:- JHB. Same axe, 2 new heads,3 new handles! -:- Wed, Mar 14, 2001 at 14:06:06 (GMT)
__ __ __ JHB -:- JHB. Same axe, 2 new heads,3 new handles! -:- Wed, Mar 14, 2001 at 14:18:43 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Bryn -:- John it is from now on. -:- Thurs, Mar 15, 2001 at 10:47:31 (GMT)
__ Robyn -:- If anyone is interested -:- Wed, Mar 14, 2001 at 13:14:11 (GMT)
__ __ Bryn -:- Rank and file premies -:- Wed, Mar 14, 2001 at 13:36:42 (GMT)
__ __ __ Richard -:- Nice going Bryn / Bongo -:- Thurs, Mar 15, 2001 at 02:33:11 (GMT)
__ __ __ Pat Conlon -:- Rank and file premies-welcome from a nonentity -:- Thurs, Mar 15, 2001 at 01:53:17 (GMT)

wolfi -:- thanks -:- Wed, Mar 14, 2001 at 10:50:36 (GMT)
__ Robyn -:- thanks -:- Thurs, Mar 15, 2001 at 04:53:52 (GMT)
__ Pat Conlon -:- thanks wolfi and welcome -:- Wed, Mar 14, 2001 at 20:10:51 (GMT)
__ Dermot -:- Hi Wolfi...come in and feel at home.. nt -:- Wed, Mar 14, 2001 at 17:52:26 (GMT)
__ __ Postie -:- Hi Wolfi...come in and feel at home.. nt -:- Wed, Mar 14, 2001 at 20:16:43 (GMT)
__ Charlie -:- thanks -:- Wed, Mar 14, 2001 at 15:32:27 (GMT)
__ __ wolfi -:- I remember the place, but not the special scene -:- Thurs, Mar 15, 2001 at 08:14:00 (GMT)
__ toby -:- thanks -:- Wed, Mar 14, 2001 at 15:10:10 (GMT)
__ __ wolfi -:- thanks -:- Thurs, Mar 15, 2001 at 08:07:10 (GMT)
__ __ __ sumo boy -:- thanks -:- Thurs, Mar 15, 2001 at 20:19:38 (GMT)
__ __ __ janet -:- can you do it in both languages for all of us? -:- Thurs, Mar 15, 2001 at 08:37:58 (GMT)
__ Brian Smith -:- It's working fine wolfi, now do tell us more (nt) -:- Wed, Mar 14, 2001 at 12:26:03 (GMT)
__ AJW -:- wolfi, you are too modest. -:- Wed, Mar 14, 2001 at 11:49:22 (GMT)
__ __ michael donner -:- wolfi, you are too modest. -:- Wed, Mar 14, 2001 at 15:21:47 (GMT)
__ __ __ Charlie -:- wolfi, you are too modest. -:- Wed, Mar 14, 2001 at 15:43:15 (GMT)
__ __ wolfi -:- wolfi, you are too modest. -:- Wed, Mar 14, 2001 at 13:33:53 (GMT)
__ __ __ Thelma -:- wolfi, Ich bin ein Berliner -:- Wed, Mar 14, 2001 at 20:17:25 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ wolfi -:- wolfi, Ich bin ein Berliner -:- Thurs, Mar 15, 2001 at 12:07:58 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Monmot -:- Ah, yes, Leonard Cohen...great song....nt -:- Thurs, Mar 15, 2001 at 16:00:32 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Monmot -:- I am a jelly doughnut? -:- Wed, Mar 14, 2001 at 20:32:56 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ janet -:- the huevis thing happenned to me in a tijuana -:- Thurs, Mar 15, 2001 at 08:46:59 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Monmot -:- The question is.... -:- Thurs, Mar 15, 2001 at 17:00:13 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Thelma -:- Monmot - uevos or cajones? -:- Wed, Mar 14, 2001 at 21:02:47 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Monmot -:- Monmot - uevos or cajones? -:- Wed, Mar 14, 2001 at 21:26:10 (GMT)
__ Jean-Michel -:- Welcome -:- Wed, Mar 14, 2001 at 11:28:53 (GMT)
__ __ salam -:- Welcome to the bad english club -:- Wed, Mar 14, 2001 at 11:40:42 (GMT)
__ __ __ Ulf -:- Welcome to the bad english club -:- Wed, Mar 14, 2001 at 16:00:23 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Joe -:- Ulf, it's okay, my Danish REALLY sucks -:- Wed, Mar 14, 2001 at 17:03:50 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Ulf -:- Tak for det ( thank you) n.t. -:- Wed, Mar 14, 2001 at 20:21:17 (GMT)

sumo boy -:- wow ,I like this name, gonna stick to it -:- Wed, Mar 14, 2001 at 09:44:58 (GMT)

Loaf -:- To Mikes Det/Don/Finch and all PAMs -:- Wed, Mar 14, 2001 at 08:26:39 (GMT)
__ suchabanana -:- Imagine swirled peas:AA/(m.+10,000codependents)(nt -:- Thurs, Mar 15, 2001 at 04:34:38 (GMT)
__ Dermot -:- Three perspectives..... -:- Thurs, Mar 15, 2001 at 00:02:28 (GMT)
__ __ wolfi -:- Three perspectives..... -:- Thurs, Mar 15, 2001 at 11:23:39 (GMT)
__ __ Michael Dettmers -:- Thanks for your perspective as well Dermot -:- Thurs, Mar 15, 2001 at 00:18:48 (GMT)
__ Francesca -:- Shopping for an upgrade. thanks all -:- Wed, Mar 14, 2001 at 20:43:58 (GMT)
__ Mike Finch -:- To Mikes Det/Don/Finch and all PAMs -:- Wed, Mar 14, 2001 at 20:15:58 (GMT)
__ __ Dermot -:- Hi Mike ...did you find a good translation -:- Wed, Mar 14, 2001 at 20:41:00 (GMT)
__ __ Pat Conlon -:- To Mike Finch - hope you had fun at Latvian Night -:- Wed, Mar 14, 2001 at 20:27:27 (GMT)
__ Dermot -:- yep..drinker/alcoholic...big difference -:- Wed, Mar 14, 2001 at 09:03:24 (GMT)
__ __ Brian Smith -:- yep..drinker/alcoholic... my experience -:- Wed, Mar 14, 2001 at 11:56:25 (GMT)
__ __ __ michael donner -:- alcohol and m -:- Wed, Mar 14, 2001 at 16:02:58 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Brian Smith -:- alcohol and m /thanks michael -:- Wed, Mar 14, 2001 at 20:53:17 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Pat Conlon -:- Thanks Donner and Brian -:- Wed, Mar 14, 2001 at 19:56:54 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Cynthia -:- alcohol and m -:- Wed, Mar 14, 2001 at 18:07:24 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ loaf -:- alcohol and m -:- Wed, Mar 14, 2001 at 17:17:59 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Joe -:- alcohol and m -:- Wed, Mar 14, 2001 at 16:49:47 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Michael Dettmers -:- alcohol and m -:- Wed, Mar 14, 2001 at 21:30:43 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Kelly -:- Mike, I just e-mailed you nt -:- Wed, Mar 14, 2001 at 22:05:01 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Joe -:- alcohol and m -:- Wed, Mar 14, 2001 at 22:03:08 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Michael Dettmers -:- alcohol and m -:- Wed, Mar 14, 2001 at 23:42:55 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Katie Darling -:- alcohol and m -:- Wed, Mar 14, 2001 at 21:57:57 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Michael Dettmers -:- alcohol and m -:- Wed, Mar 14, 2001 at 23:25:43 (GMT)
__ __ __ Loaf -:- Thanks Brian - that helps me to focus things -:- Wed, Mar 14, 2001 at 12:42:03 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ michael donner -:- blaming others... -:- Thurs, Mar 15, 2001 at 00:47:08 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Francesca -:- Thanks for your gut wrenching honesty -:- Thurs, Mar 15, 2001 at 02:54:03 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Francesca -:- Thank you for your gut wrenching honesty -:- Thurs, Mar 15, 2001 at 02:52:20 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Katie Darling -:- blaming others... -:- Thurs, Mar 15, 2001 at 02:49:06 (GMT)

La-ex -:- I'm lying in bed and I realize I'm free! -:- Wed, Mar 14, 2001 at 04:05:46 (GMT)
__ Loaf -:- Yipeee ! -:- Wed, Mar 14, 2001 at 08:32:26 (GMT)
__ Tony Walker -:- My sentiments precisely. -:- Wed, Mar 14, 2001 at 07:56:50 (GMT)
__ Pat Conlon -:- I'm free! Me too, La-ex, wheeee -:- Wed, Mar 14, 2001 at 04:24:59 (GMT)

Jim -:- 'MIKE DONNER' IS A PREMIE PLANT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! -:- Wed, Mar 14, 2001 at 03:36:27 (GMT)
__ sumo boy -:- 'MIKE DONNER' IS A PREMIE PLANT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! -:- Wed, Mar 14, 2001 at 09:40:04 (GMT)
__ Jim -:- You spoiled my joke, you fucking loosers! (nt) -:- Wed, Mar 14, 2001 at 07:17:49 (GMT)
__ __ sumo boy -:- You spoiled my joke, you fucking loosers! (nt) -:- Wed, Mar 14, 2001 at 09:42:18 (GMT)
__ __ __ LLOOOOOOOssssssssssseer -:- You spoiled my joke, you fucking loosers! (nt) -:- Wed, Mar 14, 2001 at 11:08:30 (GMT)
__ __ Pat Conlon -:- exited utterances -:- Wed, Mar 14, 2001 at 08:25:05 (GMT)
__ __ __ Cynthia -:- Pat: ''exited utterances'' LOLOL! (nt) -:- Wed, Mar 14, 2001 at 17:21:19 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Pat Conlon -:- Cyn, I wish that had been a pun and not a typo NT -:- Wed, Mar 14, 2001 at 20:23:20 (GMT)
__ __ __ Thelma -:- Pity the name Victoria Bitter has already been -:- Wed, Mar 14, 2001 at 08:28:40 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Victoria Bitter -:- Pity the name Victoria Bitter has already been -:- Wed, Mar 14, 2001 at 11:26:09 (GMT)
__ Postie -:- PREMIE PLANT- like the tree of knowledge? n/t -:- Wed, Mar 14, 2001 at 06:16:05 (GMT)
__ __ Tonette -:- premie plant-would that be garden variety -:- Wed, Mar 14, 2001 at 07:02:13 (GMT)
__ __ Robyn -:- PREMIE PLANT- like the tree of knowledge? n/t :) -:- Wed, Mar 14, 2001 at 06:24:36 (GMT)
__ Francesca -:- Now Jim ... -:- Wed, Mar 14, 2001 at 05:13:53 (GMT)
__ __ G -:- or call him -:- Wed, Mar 14, 2001 at 05:43:25 (GMT)
__ G -:- a test -:- Wed, Mar 14, 2001 at 04:41:54 (GMT)
__ __ Jim -:- Great idea! -:- Wed, Mar 14, 2001 at 04:45:53 (GMT)
__ Catweasel -:- 'MIKE DONNER' IS A PREMIE PLANT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! -:- Wed, Mar 14, 2001 at 04:10:52 (GMT)
__ la-ex -:- Jim, are you 'loosing it'?.'Loosen up,' pal.nt -:- Wed, Mar 14, 2001 at 04:08:33 (GMT)
__ salam -:- Well Mr. DONNER -:- Wed, Mar 14, 2001 at 03:44:31 (GMT)
__ __ michael donner -:- Well Mr. DONNER -:- Wed, Mar 14, 2001 at 03:52:34 (GMT)
__ __ __ janet -:- Well Mr. DONNER, since James The Paranoid has -:- Wed, Mar 14, 2001 at 10:20:42 (GMT)
__ __ __ Joy -:- Well Mr. DONNER -:- Wed, Mar 14, 2001 at 06:15:36 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ michael donner -:- Well Mr. DONNER -:- Wed, Mar 14, 2001 at 15:31:48 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Postie -:- Speaking of premie plants Donner... -:- Wed, Mar 14, 2001 at 15:52:14 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Salam -:- Talk about spelling -:- Wed, Mar 14, 2001 at 11:10:14 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ michael donenr -:- who rolled them... -:- Thurs, Mar 15, 2001 at 01:16:29 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Ricahrd -:- who rolled them... -:- Thurs, Mar 15, 2001 at 01:28:21 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Tap Nocnol -:- who rolled them...not me -:- Thurs, Mar 15, 2001 at 01:46:09 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ janet -:- no wuckin'furries, mate--dave's not here, man -:- Thurs, Mar 15, 2001 at 09:23:00 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Drahcir -:- I'm stuckin' foned, man! n/t -:- Thurs, Mar 15, 2001 at 01:49:51 (GMT)

Twiz -:- HELP!!! -:- Wed, Mar 14, 2001 at 03:25:00 (GMT)
__ salam -:- Tell them -:- Wed, Mar 14, 2001 at 03:46:08 (GMT)
__ __ Postie -:- Yeh Twiz, you tell them.... -:- Wed, Mar 14, 2001 at 16:30:36 (GMT)
__ __ Twiz -:- Latest Illusion. -:- Wed, Mar 14, 2001 at 13:51:23 (GMT)
__ __ __ salam -:- Donno about the Cross -:- Thurs, Mar 15, 2001 at 01:28:34 (GMT)

Brian -:- New Journeys entry -:- Wed, Mar 14, 2001 at 01:38:50 (GMT)
__ Helen -:- New Journeys entry -:- Wed, Mar 14, 2001 at 13:16:06 (GMT)
__ Disculta -:- Unbe-f**cking-lievable! -:- Wed, Mar 14, 2001 at 06:04:47 (GMT)
__ __ Francesca -:- Unbe-f**cking-lievable! -:- Wed, Mar 14, 2001 at 22:04:36 (GMT)
__ __ Joe -:- Deprogrammings -:- Wed, Mar 14, 2001 at 17:36:05 (GMT)
__ __ __ la-ex -:- Joe W: about Maggie Shivers deprogramming... -:- Thurs, Mar 15, 2001 at 00:15:40 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Joe -:- Have you seen Maggie -:- Thurs, Mar 15, 2001 at 00:32:50 (GMT)
__ __ __ Francesca -:- Deprogrammings -:- Wed, Mar 14, 2001 at 22:11:30 (GMT)
__ __ __ Joy -:- Deprogrammings -:- Wed, Mar 14, 2001 at 19:17:29 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Joy -:- I Take It Back -:- Wed, Mar 14, 2001 at 19:27:33 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Joe -:- I remember now -:- Wed, Mar 14, 2001 at 20:04:04 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Francesca -:- I remember now - she's a good person -:- Wed, Mar 14, 2001 at 22:19:23 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Joe -:- I remember now - she's a good person -:- Wed, Mar 14, 2001 at 22:26:30 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Francesca -:- Deprogramming sux == deprogrammed, please post -:- Wed, Mar 14, 2001 at 23:07:49 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Joe -:- Deprogramming sux == deprogrammed, please post -:- Wed, Mar 14, 2001 at 23:16:35 (GMT)
__ __ __ Monmot -:- Deprogrammings -:- Wed, Mar 14, 2001 at 18:02:24 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Joe -:- Deprogrammings -:- Wed, Mar 14, 2001 at 18:31:08 (GMT)
__ __ Charlie -:- Unbe-f**cking-lievable! Isn't it? -:- Wed, Mar 14, 2001 at 14:51:14 (GMT)
__ __ la-ex -:- Disculta-I am inviting one to post here... -:- Wed, Mar 14, 2001 at 13:13:34 (GMT)
__ __ __ Francesca -:- What is an exit counselor ... -:- Wed, Mar 14, 2001 at 23:10:28 (GMT)
__ Tonette -:- Quite a journey nt -:- Wed, Mar 14, 2001 at 02:26:43 (GMT)
__ Pat Conlon -:- Thank you Brian and Peter -:- Wed, Mar 14, 2001 at 02:26:04 (GMT)
__ __ Mercedes -:- TThank you Brian and Peter -:- Wed, Mar 14, 2001 at 02:32:43 (GMT)
__ __ __ la-ex -:- Peter-a beautifully written,wonderful journey..nt -:- Wed, Mar 14, 2001 at 03:33:22 (GMT)

Dermot -:- After posting around like a blue ass fly -:- Tues, Mar 13, 2001 at 23:55:39 (GMT)
__ Pat Conlon -:- I thought you were going to say goodbye -:- Wed, Mar 14, 2001 at 00:07:00 (GMT)
__ __ moldy warp -:- You can't leave -:- Wed, Mar 14, 2001 at 00:33:11 (GMT)

Patrick (formerly Anon) -:- Latvian Night -:- Tues, Mar 13, 2001 at 23:06:25 (GMT)
__ cq -:- Latvian Night - don't tell everyone! -:- Wed, Mar 14, 2001 at 20:43:54 (GMT)
__ __ Kelly -:- Latvian Night - don't tell everyone! -:- Wed, Mar 14, 2001 at 22:44:18 (GMT)
__ __ __ Jim -:- YOU WHAT????? -:- Thurs, Mar 15, 2001 at 17:00:58 (GMT)
__ Jethro -:- Latvian Night -:- Wed, Mar 14, 2001 at 08:42:05 (GMT)
__ __ Robyn -:- Latvian Night -:- Thurs, Mar 15, 2001 at 03:59:29 (GMT)
__ __ __ Jethro -:- Robyn, aaaaaaaaah a good day -:- Thurs, Mar 15, 2001 at 04:26:30 (GMT)
__ __ JohnT -:- I second that! -:- Wed, Mar 14, 2001 at 13:50:59 (GMT)
__ Bin Liner -:- Nice take , Patrick... -:- Tues, Mar 13, 2001 at 23:49:21 (GMT)
__ Pat Conlon -:- Latvian Night - great report from the trenches -:- Tues, Mar 13, 2001 at 23:21:04 (GMT)
__ __ Postie -:- Thanks - we've been waiting -:- Wed, Mar 14, 2001 at 00:05:20 (GMT)
__ __ __ Nigel -:- Sack the chef! -:- Wed, Mar 14, 2001 at 01:35:05 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Disculta -:- Sack the chef! -:- Wed, Mar 14, 2001 at 05:56:20 (GMT)


Date: Wed, Mar 14, 2001 at 16:15:59 (GMT)
From: Jean-Michel
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: Wanna see my brand new SmartCard?
Message:
EV's ID Sytem

Our on-site technicians and ingeneers haven't X-rayed and analyzed the microship yet, but we should know soon what's inside this piece of high technology .....

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Date: Thurs, Mar 15, 2001 at 12:13:01 (GMT)
From: AJW
Email: None
To: Jean-Michel
Subject: Tu es un mauvais garcon Jean-Michel.
Message:
I want one. I'm jealous.

Anth the Smart Arse

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Date: Thurs, Mar 15, 2001 at 03:33:45 (GMT)
From: Robyn
Email: None
To: Jean-Michel
Subject: Wanna see my brand new SmartCard?
Message:
Hi sweetie,
Just had to see your face again. :) I remember you so clearly the morning I left for work as you were getting up, SB at the computer, I'm sure :), and you sitting there smiling good bye. :)
Love,
Robyn
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Date: Thurs, Mar 15, 2001 at 02:58:30 (GMT)
From: Pat Conlon
Email: None
To: Jean-Michel
Subject: Wanna see my brand new SmartCard? and Thelma's
Message:
My SmartCard
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Date: Thurs, Mar 15, 2001 at 12:27:26 (GMT)
From: AJW
Email: None
To: Pat Conlon
Subject: Hey Pat,
Message:
couldn't you get Thelma to pose in her underwear?

Anth of the Why Front

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Date: Thurs, Mar 15, 2001 at 19:12:13 (GMT)
From: Pat Conlon
Email: None
To: AJW
Subject: Hey Anth, I send you a copy privately NT
Message:
m
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Date: Thurs, Mar 15, 2001 at 07:20:06 (GMT)
From: Francesca
Email: None
To: Pat Conlon
Subject: Thelma you are a 'looser'! Bravo n/t
Message:
n/t
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Date: Thurs, Mar 15, 2001 at 07:16:52 (GMT)
From: Francesca
Email: None
To: Pat Conlon
Subject: Watch out Thelma -- rawat will be
Message:
after your arse and give you some private darshan if you start doin' the kangaroo hop in Amerscroo.
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Date: Thurs, Mar 15, 2001 at 03:04:23 (GMT)
From: Dickie Pwickie
Email: None
To: Pat Conlon
Subject: You're gonna' burn for that Thelma
Message:
You know you'll NEVER be able to smooth table cloths again. You're so lost.
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Date: Thurs, Mar 15, 2001 at 04:06:22 (GMT)
From: Luke Pewk
Email: None
To: Dickie Pwickie
Subject: Thelma is always welcome back. The doors are open
Message:
to Maharaji's love and mercy always always hic especially whenever she feels sending hic another check hic.
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Date: Wed, Mar 14, 2001 at 22:54:15 (GMT)
From: Joe
Email: None
To: Jean-Michel
Subject: With all due respect
Message:
That card is CREEPY. With that picture and that card, doesn't it look like something out of 'Brave New World.'

Doesn't that Smart Card look like some kind of 'New World Order' organization.

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Date: Wed, Mar 14, 2001 at 23:50:53 (GMT)
From: Marianne
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: J-M's SmartCard
Message:
I think Elan Vital would like to know how J-M got that card. Wonders never cease!

Marianne

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Date: Thurs, Mar 15, 2001 at 00:17:42 (GMT)
From: michael donner
Email: None
To: Marianne
Subject: J-M's SmartCard
Message:
what the hell is a smart card?
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Date: Thurs, Mar 15, 2001 at 09:32:08 (GMT)
From: Tonette
Email: None
To: michael donner
Subject: More than just a photo
Message:
What premies don't know is that the microchip emits barely detectable electro magnetic waves that causes that person's aura to vibrate in synchroninity (spelling sucks) with the programing embedded in the microchip. Yes, EV from it's HQ can transmit commands to people carrying the smart card. Commands such as 'send a check, a large one' or 'register immediately for the nearest program' and that person will be powerless to contain their urge. In fact, they will think that it's a good idea and their idea.
The microchip is so powerful it can affect the limbic system in the brain causing people to feel like they have an actual relationship with the Master.
As new features are added it's only a matter of time until the whole world has a smart card. JM's transformation is now only beginning.
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Date: Thurs, Mar 15, 2001 at 18:15:12 (GMT)
From: Richard
Email: None
To: Tonette
Subject: Can't post ... driving to Portland .....
Message:
Hilarious Tonette - a synchronizing pulse tone. Now that is a SmartCard indeed.

Hmmm... must shop now. Let's see, 4 Knowledge tea towels, 1 Daya's greatest hit, 36 Intro videos, 1 Leather bomber jacket with K logo, 1 set crystal cognac snifters w/ logo, 1 platinum wrist watch with K logo.....................................................

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Date: Thurs, Mar 15, 2001 at 00:59:56 (GMT)
From: jondon
Email: None
To: all
Subject: Could'nt be too hard to get...
Message:
I got one.
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Date: Thurs, Mar 15, 2001 at 04:33:19 (GMT)
From: Tell Man
Email: None
To: jondon
Subject: Could'nt be too hard to get...
Message:
Well ? Did you take my advise?
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Date: Thurs, Mar 15, 2001 at 04:49:00 (GMT)
From: Forum Administrator
Email: None
To: Tell Man
Subject: Tell Man - a word please
Message:
You seem to do nothing but dog jondon when you appear here. Is there a reason for this? Have you anything else to contribute?

jondon - let me know if you want this dealt with.

FA

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Date: Thurs, Mar 15, 2001 at 04:59:09 (GMT)
From: Pat Conlon
Email: None
To: Forum Administrator
Subject: Tell Man - did you see the movie 'Chuck and Buck?'
Message:
Now what would that advice to Jondon be? This is a public forum not private email. If you want to give Jondon advice on this forum then you better just spell it out. Talking about private secrets here is VERY RUDE.

If you do not want to talk to ALL OF US then FUCK OFF.

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Date: Thurs, Mar 15, 2001 at 04:58:16 (GMT)
From: Tell Man
Email: None
To: Forum Administrator
Subject: Tell Man - a word please
Message:
I know him. and I'm pretty sure it's ok. But let me if not.
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Date: Thurs, Mar 15, 2001 at 05:04:55 (GMT)
From: Forum Administrator
Email: None
To: Tell Man
Subject: Tell Man - a word please
Message:
So does jondon know who you are? We won't tolerate stalking of individual exes by anonymous premies.

But it's really up to jondon. If he's OK with it, fine, if not then I would respectfully ask you to stop whatever it is you are trying to do.

FA

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Date: Thurs, Mar 15, 2001 at 00:47:41 (GMT)
From: Joe
Email: None
To: michael donner
Subject: J-M's SmartCard
Message:
Elan Vital has gotten so paranoid, I think primarily because of this website and some of the other things that have happened, like an open letter to M and an ad in a Boston newspaper, etc., that it has started issuing ID cards to premies, with a computer chip inside that contains information the cult wants to include. The card with Jean Michel's picture on it, and the one above with Richard Rogers are examples. You have to fill out a fairly lenghtly application to get one, and pay $30.

It appears that when there is to be a premie-only event, like when things M doesn't want seen by others is discussed, or when the is going to give darshan or something, one has to have a smart card to get in. There is a program being planned in Amaroo, Australia next month, for premies only, and you have to have a smart card to get in. And, presumably, now that Richard and J-M are momnots, that would show up on the computer and they wouldn't be let in, lest they blabb about the Maharaji-worship going on inside the cult grounds.

Apparently you can buy trinkets and other cult-crap, like tea cups and wrist watches, and new-age elevator music throught the smart card as well.

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Date: Thurs, Mar 15, 2001 at 00:55:54 (GMT)
From: Joe
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: Addendum
Message:
The weird thing is, Jean Michel has been a notorious momnot and thorn in the side of Maharaji and his cult for years now. And since they only started issuing Smart Cards fairly recently, the question is, how did J-M get one? It is a mystery that may never be solved.
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Date: Thurs, Mar 15, 2001 at 00:46:55 (GMT)
From: Richard
Email: None
To: michael donner
Subject: What's a SmartCard you ask?
Message:
Michael,

You must feel like Rip Van Winkle or something. So much revision, so many new 'big ideas'.

Anyway, a SmartCard is a Brave New World premie identification system. When it was first rolled out by M as one of his 'original ideas', it was supposed to make everyone's life easier re: program registration. (I mean, DLM / EV's only been producing events for maybe 25 YEARS!!!!)

Plus, it was to be a credit card, personal ID, and so on. Very Brave New Worldish, eh? It's even more bizarre if you read the info JM posted re: SmartCard rules and regs. Can you say 'control trip'?

I ordered mine in March of last year, thinking I might want to be able to attend events for some reasons I can't think of now. I finally got mine maybe 2 months ago - 10 months later. Friends who have registered for recent events STILL had to speed dial for hours just to get through to give someone a credit card payment AND the SmartCard #. I understand EV attempted an automated dial-up scenario that failed miserably for Portland registration.

I've observed the Peter Principle at work around M for years. He always pushes the technology until it fails - any clues why?

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Date: Thurs, Mar 15, 2001 at 01:00:10 (GMT)
From: michael donner
Email: None
To: Richard
Subject: smart card and failure
Message:
richard, you asked, why does he push it til it fails? interesting question.

if we finally get the concept that m is not really about spreading k rather about self gratification we begin to see a pattern to al that he does.

he wants to fly, loves flying...so he creates decca and perpetuates the myth that its all about getting round the world to spread k.

he has kids and can not imagine them going to public school so he creates unity school with the idea that it will be together in time for his kids to go...no other reason that i remember except the propaganda.

he likes to tinker and fancies himself an inventor...same story always the myth of propagation etc. ' if it ain't broke don't fit it' and his pattern continues to work for him.

doesn't matter to him who or how many are inconvenienced, speed dialing, ashrams/no ashrams instructors/no instructors k sessions/no k sessions. so long as he is not inconvenienced it does not matter.

besides if the smart card does not work it will be someone else's fault you can be sure.

(i could have switched to the web site jm created re smart card before i wondered what it was..thanks jm)

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Date: Thurs, Mar 15, 2001 at 00:05:07 (GMT)
From: Joe
Email: None
To: Marianne
Subject: Yeah, how DID J-M get that card?
Message:
Can I get one too? What a collectors item from a dying cult.
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Date: Thurs, Mar 15, 2001 at 09:12:08 (GMT)
From: Marianne
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: Can you get a SmartCard too? Yes!
Message:
n/t
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Date: Thurs, Mar 15, 2001 at 15:03:10 (GMT)
From: Bazza
Email: None
To: Marianne
Subject: Can you get a SmartCard too? Yes!
Message:
You're right Marianne, they WILL issue anyone here with SmartCard. However, you might want to give some thought to WHY they would do that. We can talk about this offline if you like.
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Date: Thurs, Mar 15, 2001 at 19:42:11 (GMT)
From: Joe
Email: kevjo@mindspring.com
To: Bazza
Subject: Can you get a SmartCard too? Yes!
Message:
Could the reason be to collect 30 bucks?

Maybe to get recent pictures of some of us?

Oh, I dont' know, could be lots of reasons.

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Date: Thurs, Mar 15, 2001 at 09:54:01 (GMT)
From: Pat Conlon
Email: None
To: Marianne
Subject: Marianne, send me your pic and I'll make it
Message:
Here in San Francisco:

Spring has sprung
The grass has ris
I wonder where
Marianne is

We're having a heatwave.

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Date: Thurs, Mar 15, 2001 at 18:09:24 (GMT)
From: Marianne
Email: None
To: Pat Conlon
Subject: I already have a SmartCard
Message:
It's called a law degree. I got that instead of staying in the fecking cult.

I'm still here in Ireland, but work on my cases has interrupted my writing sojourn. I am not still asleep in the hotel room in London, as some very rude people have suggested.

Actually, I wrote 2 very long posts about Latvian Night that my fecking computer refused to post and did not save!!!! Arrrgh!!

Maybe I'll try again today.

Much love, Marianne

PS There were actually EV spies at Latvian Night, I kid you not! They were quite obvious. I am not the only one who noticed them.

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Date: Wed, Mar 14, 2001 at 20:00:53 (GMT)
From: Postie
Email: None
To: Jean-Michel
Subject: Here's mine
Message:
I never burned my draft card (was 4F) so here's my protest. Jean-Michel, you've started a French Revolution.

Get Smart Today

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Date: Wed, Mar 14, 2001 at 23:09:18 (GMT)
From: Bin Liner
Email: None
To: Postie
Subject: Great new specs Postie (nt)
Message:
nt
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Date: Wed, Mar 14, 2001 at 19:21:17 (GMT)
From: Roger eDrek
Email: drek@oz.net
To: Jean-Michel
Subject: EV is so sick!
Message:
printed over an attractive background design

Wow! I'm sure that Maharaji all by himself created the artwork.

It's funny how EV and premies make such a big fuss over atractive background designs. They've always been that way too.

no worries about waiting in long lines, being recognized, or having to be interviewed

EV calls being given the third degree by David Smith being 'interviewed'. Oh, boy.

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Date: Wed, Mar 14, 2001 at 20:38:36 (GMT)
From: cq
Email: None
To: Roger eDrek
Subject: seen M's paper roses yet? (only imitation)
Message:
This is how he says 'thank-you' -

(and the link is also a back-door onto his website)

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Date: Thurs, Mar 15, 2001 at 16:52:26 (GMT)
From: Katie
Email: None
To: cq
Subject: They shut the door, Chris...
Message:
Amazing response time (snicker).

P.S. Saw some great pics of Latvian night - looked like fun.

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Date: Wed, Mar 14, 2001 at 17:24:43 (GMT)
From: Jean-Michel
Email: None
To: Jean-Michel
Subject: Just added EV's info about it !
Message:
EV's mail about SmartCards

That's also a piece of art ....

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Date: Wed, Mar 14, 2001 at 17:21:22 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Jean-Michel
Subject: I think I can see the microchip
Message:
Is it in your eye? Your left eye? Must be.
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Date: Wed, Mar 14, 2001 at 16:45:07 (GMT)
From: Charlie
Email: None
To: Jean-Michel
Subject: Guess what?
Message:
Ere, guess who I had in the back of my cab the other day? Yeah, that geezer in the photo it was.

Charming bloke, on is way to Latvia I think 'e said but I ended up dropping 'im in Earl's Court.

Nice one.

Mind you, I don't recall gettin' a tip

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Date: Thurs, Mar 15, 2001 at 12:24:33 (GMT)
From: AJW
Email: None
To: Charlie
Subject: Parisiens don't tip Charlie. (nt)
Message:
not that I'm saying they're tight or anything
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Date: Wed, Mar 14, 2001 at 18:25:05 (GMT)
From: Brian
Email: brian@ex-premie.org
To: Charlie
Subject: Green with envy
Message:
He's still wanted by police in Virginia for 'Driving While French'. Probably better for him if he never sets foot in the US again.

Actually, I'm quite jealous. I haven't gotten my card yet. I think the webmaster get's a gold card. Yes, I'm pretty sure about that...

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Date: Wed, Mar 14, 2001 at 12:57:38 (GMT)
From: Bryn (aka Bongo)
Email: Bryndaviesesq@hotmail.com
To: Everyone
Subject: If anyone is interested
Message:
I am pleased to inform the world, that Bryn Davies no longer needs the alis of 'Bongo' to express himself on matters pertaining to Guru JI and K. From now on I will contribute(hopefully slightly more intelligently) under my own name of Bryn.
I haven't got much to say at the moment,and I still haven't got a pc,but it is a relief to be able to use my own name.
love to all,Bryn.
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Date: Wed, Mar 14, 2001 at 18:00:06 (GMT)
From: Dermot
Email: None
To: Bryn (aka Bongo)
Subject: Yo Bryn....hi and welcome and JHB (hi again ! ) nt
Message:
xx
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Date: Wed, Mar 14, 2001 at 17:22:05 (GMT)
From: Loaf
Email: None
To: Bryn (aka Bongo)
Subject: Bryn.. is it reallly YOU ??
Message:
Well well well ! Who would have thought it !

We must find a suitable pseudonym for myself. Ian Warburton would be too preposterous and unbelievable. I shall have a good thunk.

This season I are mostly drinking cognac !

Loaf of Life

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Date: Wed, Mar 14, 2001 at 14:56:52 (GMT)
From: Charlie
Email: None
To: Bryn (aka Bongo)
Subject: If anyone is interested
Message:
Hi Bryn,

your expression is already more fluid : )

It's good to be free!

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Date: Wed, Mar 14, 2001 at 13:57:00 (GMT)
From: JHB
Email: None
To: Bryn (aka Bongo)
Subject: If anyone is interested
Message:
Bryn,

Good to see you here, assuming you're the Bryn I know from Leeds!

Welcome,

John Brauns

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Date: Wed, Mar 14, 2001 at 14:06:06 (GMT)
From: Bryn
Email: bryndaviesesq@hotmail.com
To: JHB
Subject: JHB. Same axe, 2 new heads,3 new handles!
Message:
Hello Janni as you were called. Thanks for the greeting. Hope all's well. You were ahead of your time!
See you in the future. (my thoughts go to Lol and Bobby). Bless us all.
love Bryn
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Date: Wed, Mar 14, 2001 at 14:18:43 (GMT)
From: JHB
Email: None
To: Bryn
Subject: JHB. Same axe, 2 new heads,3 new handles!
Message:
As far as I remember it was only you and John Drake who called me Janni (pronounced Yaani), following our (me and John) meeting a Latvian girl in a Leeds pub in 1975 or 76 and she didn't believe there were any Latvians living in Leeds that she didn't know. Anyway, she insisted we go back to her mother's house where she and everyone else called my by the Latvian version of John. With you and John that stuck forever!

Thanks for the kind thoughts for Lol and Bobby. I can never make up for all the ways I failed them, but I still remember the good stuff with affection.

All the best,

John.

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Date: Thurs, Mar 15, 2001 at 10:47:31 (GMT)
From: Bryn
Email: bryndaviesesq@hotmail
To: JHB
Subject: John it is from now on.
Message:
And Drake? What news of him?
love Bryn
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Date: Wed, Mar 14, 2001 at 13:14:11 (GMT)
From: Robyn
Email: None
To: Bryn (aka Bongo)
Subject: If anyone is interested
Message:
Dear Bryn,
Gosh, this is like the finali(sp) in some big price musical! :) All these exes coming out into the sunshine, arms raised and filled with joy to be counted. Nice. :)
Love,
Robyn
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Date: Wed, Mar 14, 2001 at 13:36:42 (GMT)
From: Bryn
Email: Bryndaviesesq@hotmail.com
To: Robyn
Subject: Rank and file premies
Message:
Just seen a post below, by Dermot. I think PRIVILEGE, spiritual, social,material has played a key part in my preoccupation with M.et al. I know it's an obvious enough point, but my God it goes deep!
love Bryn
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Date: Thurs, Mar 15, 2001 at 02:33:11 (GMT)
From: Richard
Email: None
To: Bryn
Subject: Nice going Bryn / Bongo
Message:
As you can see, Postie has gone maskless, too.
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Date: Thurs, Mar 15, 2001 at 01:53:17 (GMT)
From: Pat Conlon
Email: None
To: Bryn
Subject: Rank and file premies-welcome from a nonentity
Message:
This joint is jumping. It is very exciting to see people feeling free and fearless enough to post here under their own names.

You can see the benefits when some old friend from the past recognizes you. Welcome, Bryn.

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Date: Wed, Mar 14, 2001 at 10:50:36 (GMT)
From: wolfi
Email: wolfgang.oed@stadt.erlangen.dede
To: Everyone
Subject: thanks
Message:
This is my first try. If it works I will tell more. But my english is teribble.

wolfi

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Date: Thurs, Mar 15, 2001 at 04:53:52 (GMT)
From: Robyn
Email: None
To: wolfi
Subject: thanks
Message:
Dear Wolfi,
Nice to see you and am glad you can type English well enough to be here. Enjoy.
Love,
Robyn
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Date: Wed, Mar 14, 2001 at 20:10:51 (GMT)
From: Pat Conlon
Email: None
To: wolfi
Subject: thanks wolfi and welcome
Message:
I already said Hi to you down below but I guess my welcome belongs in this thread. Your english is fine and I am looking forward to reading more of your posts.

PS Just remember that I am also sometimes Thelma who likes to make jokes.

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Date: Wed, Mar 14, 2001 at 17:52:26 (GMT)
From: Dermot
Email: None
To: wolfi
Subject: Hi Wolfi...come in and feel at home.. nt
Message:
www
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Date: Wed, Mar 14, 2001 at 20:16:43 (GMT)
From: Postie
Email: None
To: wolfi
Subject: Hi Wolfi...come in and feel at home.. nt
Message:
nt
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Date: Wed, Mar 14, 2001 at 15:32:27 (GMT)
From: Charlie
Email: None
To: wolfi
Subject: thanks
Message:
Hi Wolfi

are there many German premies still 'practising'? I remember attending festivals in Dörtmund 79(?) and München 77. In München the police ejected hundreds of premies from the Haus International at about 3.00am on a freezing night in the snow. They had been sleeping on the floors of rooms other premies who had paid for but the management got wise to what was happening. Man, the place was crawling with devotees.

At the time I was asleep in a van parked in a side street with some other premies. You see I too couldn't afford a room. When all these guys were ejected from the hotel they were running around in the snow looking for somewhere to hold out. Within minutes the rear door of the van opened and we were stormed by a heard of shivering premies who jumped in on top of us. I felt kind of sorry for them and wouldn't have minded them sitting on me quite as much if they hadn't insisted on singing arti and other assorted gibberish tunes until the sun rose.

I also remember the management of Haus International kindly giving away hot food to hundreds of wretched and hungry premies who were hanging about during the day. Hey, but wouldn't you know how those premies complained when they found schnitzel!!

Yavohl mein herr...

Charlie

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Date: Thurs, Mar 15, 2001 at 08:14:00 (GMT)
From: wolfi
Email: None
To: Charlie
Subject: I remember the place, but not the special scene
Message:
nt
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Date: Wed, Mar 14, 2001 at 15:10:10 (GMT)
From: toby
Email: toby4u@freenet.de
To: wolfi
Subject: thanks
Message:
Hallo Wolfi,

es scheint Du bist dert einzige andere Deutsche der sich hier
meldet.

Bist Du ein alter Erlanger?

Kennst Du Ernst Brinkmann, Biggi ,Walter Koll und die anderen
die dort mal gehaust haben?.

Willkommen.

Du kannst hier Sachen erfahren ,das hat Dir die Schuhe weg.

Kuck selbst.

Grüße

Toby

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Date: Thurs, Mar 15, 2001 at 08:07:10 (GMT)
From: wolfi
Email: None
To: toby
Subject: thanks
Message:
Hi Toby,

kontakt habe ich noch mit Ernst und Biggi.
Auf Deiner Website war ich auch schon mal.

wolfi

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Date: Thurs, Mar 15, 2001 at 20:19:38 (GMT)
From: sumo boy
Email: None
To: wolfi
Subject: thanks
Message:
guten tag,wolfi,no you're not the only one,maybe I know you.
are you a kinda short guy who used to have very long bushy hair?
I'm writing in English coz most people on the forum don't speak
German..except janet ..mach schnell..knew she is a speed freak
firing off all those tirades...so from your e-mail ad you seem
to work for the city of erlangen local administration??
you're not doing that during office hours wastin' away on the
taxpayers'monies,man ?? they need that money to pay me my dole!!
okay ,welcum to the crazy world of EPO.I'll mailya on your city
post later
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Date: Thurs, Mar 15, 2001 at 08:37:58 (GMT)
From: janet
Email: None
To: wolfi and toby
Subject: can you do it in both languages for all of us?
Message:
first german/Deutsch, then english translation below it?
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Date: Wed, Mar 14, 2001 at 12:26:03 (GMT)
From: Brian Smith
Email: None
To: wolfi
Subject: It's working fine wolfi, now do tell us more (nt)
Message:
Thank you
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Date: Wed, Mar 14, 2001 at 11:49:22 (GMT)
From: AJW
Email: None
To: wolfi
Subject: wolfi, you are too modest.
Message:
hi wolfi,

I guess that English is not your first language. If this is the case, you should be proud that your second language is good enough to use on a forum.

I tried to post on the French forum once (English people think I'm fluent in French), but it was a disaster. Jean-Michel can tell you how bad my French is.

Lots of English people can't write as well as you.

Meine Deutsch ist nicht gut eiderdown.

Auf Wiedersehen

Anth qui gets paid dans Euros.

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Date: Wed, Mar 14, 2001 at 15:21:47 (GMT)
From: michael donner
Email: None
To: AJW
Subject: wolfi, you are too modest.
Message:
welcome and thanks for posting.
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Date: Wed, Mar 14, 2001 at 15:43:15 (GMT)
From: Charlie
Email: None
To: michael donner
Subject: wolfi, you are too modest.
Message:
Oh, hi to you Mike too.

Welcome to the honourable company of loosers.

You'll find the removal of that tight collar and the more generous cut of cloth provided here gives much greater ease of movement and expression.

Charlie

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Date: Wed, Mar 14, 2001 at 13:33:53 (GMT)
From: wolfi
Email: None
To: AJW
Subject: wolfi, you are too modest.
Message:
Hi AJW

I'm too excited. I don't know were to start (sounds like starting to give satsang). It's really amazing to find a very important part of my history now on this Internetmedium.
I never had a close contact to M even so I'm a premie since 73.
I got bored listening to Videos.I felt strange in Amaroo 97, cause of the politics of ELV. It'not possible for me to imagine how my life would have developt without K and M, maybe better maybe worse. When this whole thing is really a fake, and I indent to see it as a fake, then that is a great lesson to learn.

wolfi

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Date: Wed, Mar 14, 2001 at 20:17:25 (GMT)
From: Thelma
Email: None
To: wolfi
Subject: wolfi, Ich bin ein Berliner
Message:
Ich lieber dich.

Auf wiederschein.

That's all I know in German.

I hope it was not in vain.

All the other German I know is too dirty for the forum.

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Date: Thurs, Mar 15, 2001 at 12:07:58 (GMT)
From: wolfi
Email: None
To: Thelma
Subject: wolfi, Ich bin ein Berliner
Message:
First we take Manhattan than we take Berlin

okay....wolfi

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Date: Thurs, Mar 15, 2001 at 16:00:32 (GMT)
From: Monmot
Email: None
To: wolfi
Subject: Ah, yes, Leonard Cohen...great song....nt
Message:
mm
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Date: Wed, Mar 14, 2001 at 20:32:56 (GMT)
From: Monmot
Email: None
To: Thelma
Subject: I am a jelly doughnut?
Message:
Hey Thelma:

Is that the same phrase JFK used when visiting Berlin? JFK obviously didn't know it, but what he really said was 'I am a jelly doughnut,' rather than I am a Berliner.

Of course, being a typical American, I can speak no other languages, except maybe read some French, so who am I to point that one out. I am no Jackie Kennedy, fer shure, Thelma.

Once in Mexico, I thought I was ordering hard boiled eggs. Instead, what I ordered was the slang for men's balls. The waiter almost had a stroke laughing at me and my order.

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Date: Thurs, Mar 15, 2001 at 08:46:59 (GMT)
From: janet
Email: None
To: Monmot
Subject: the huevis thing happenned to me in a tijuana
Message:
market.i asked if they had 'huevos' and he patted his crotch and uproariously laughed and nodded ¡Si! Si! Yo lo tengo!

You would think, after living in Denver, Miami, Houston , New York City and los angeles that i would know spanish by now....

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Date: Thurs, Mar 15, 2001 at 17:00:13 (GMT)
From: Monmot
Email: None
To: janet
Subject: The question is....
Message:
how do you order eggs in Mexico? I should know too given I've lived in LA for so long. But spanglish doesn't cover that one obviously. Glad I'm not the only one that's happened to. :->>
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Date: Wed, Mar 14, 2001 at 21:02:47 (GMT)
From: Thelma
Email: None
To: Monmot
Subject: Monmot - uevos or cajones?
Message:
How do order hard-boled testicles in a Mexican restuarant? I need that phrase.

Thelma, who has got balls.

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Date: Wed, Mar 14, 2001 at 21:26:10 (GMT)
From: Monmot
Email: None
To: Thelma
Subject: Monmot - uevos or cajones?
Message:
Huevos duras, mon ami. Let me know how it goes when you test drive that phrase.... :->>
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Date: Wed, Mar 14, 2001 at 11:28:53 (GMT)
From: Jean-Michel
Email: None
To: wolfi
Subject: Welcome
Message:
My English too is terrible, but that's fine ....
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Date: Wed, Mar 14, 2001 at 11:40:42 (GMT)
From: salam
Email: None
To: Jean-Michel
Subject: Welcome to the bad english club
Message:
fell free to make mistakes writing about rawat. It's fun.
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Date: Wed, Mar 14, 2001 at 16:00:23 (GMT)
From: Ulf
Email: None
To: salam
Subject: Welcome to the bad english club
Message:
Yes you are very welcome
My english is even worse than yours.
But it dont matter , most people here are nice

Best Ulf

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Date: Wed, Mar 14, 2001 at 17:03:50 (GMT)
From: Joe
Email: None
To: Ulf
Subject: Ulf, it's okay, my Danish REALLY sucks
Message:
Even though I am one-quarter Danish, I couldn't read one word out of the newspaper that you put around the tape you sent me.

By the way, I think your English is quite good.

Joe
Who is just barely mono-lingual

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Date: Wed, Mar 14, 2001 at 20:21:17 (GMT)
From: Ulf
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: Tak for det ( thank you) n.t.
Message:
ooo
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Date: Wed, Mar 14, 2001 at 09:44:58 (GMT)
From: sumo boy
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: wow ,I like this name, gonna stick to it
Message:
sumo boy loves janet bai ...
are we all dreaming a collective dream or are we witnessing
a collective awakening ??
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Date: Wed, Mar 14, 2001 at 08:26:39 (GMT)
From: Loaf
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: To Mikes Det/Don/Finch and all PAMs
Message:
Its just a question about the term 'alchoholic' which is getting thrown about with great gusto and enthusiasm on the forum these days.

I am trying to reconcile my own experience with alchoholics with the 'face' that M has presented at events.

And as much as I realise I am putting my head in the jaws of a lion here to have it bitten off - I want to clear up my doubt over whether that term is applicable to him - otherwise it devalues the arguement or the criticism.

His shameless hypocracy, power trip, greed, dissatisfaction...yes yes yes

But to over use the term 'alchoholic' for a person who clearly does control their drinking at times - and whom I can now see as a flawed and vulnerable human being whom I imagine needs to unwind after the pressure of keeping up an act when 'in public'- somehow demonises the sad and 'understandable ordinaryness' of the man into something larger than life - which I am ever aware that he is not.

So - putting the double standards aside (which strikes me as the MOST serious issue regarding his drinking)- am I factually correct in remembering from Mikes posts (and others) that M has been regularly drunk on cognac at night - and has needed to be carried up to bed.

I think there is something in the WAY people drink - rather than the amount which sends warning bells ringing (from personal experience). People who NEED to be drunk (once in a while or in order to cope with a specific problem/event) as a release may not be alchoholic. I am sure there are experts out there who can help create a clearer picture of Prem Pal's psychology. The truth does interest me - and not just for purient anti-darshan story reasons - but so that I can reshape the internal image of the Perfect master which I have allowed to occupy a significant spotcentre stage in my life for almost 20 years.

The issue for me - in my 'healing' is that I am realising the enormous cost in terms of my personal relationships of having a 'perfect' figure in my life.

Its a deep psychological trouble spot - I am certain that it has (for better or for worse) kept me trapped in a state of childlike dependency. When we first realise that our parents are fucked up mortals (f.u.m.)- there is a distinct awakening (or there was for me) - so it seems I immediately went shopping for an upgrade.

As indeed has the mass of humanity throughout history - hence the human fascination with super-heros, gods, godesses, dictators, prophets, saviours and celebrities.

The cult of the personality gives credence to the most powerful currency - Fame - and because of it, the media arises to milk our need for people to focus on.

Now that gradually - My particular Lord has turned out to be no more divine than any other f.u.m.- this excites me. No.... not in the trousers .....but because it reveals the dynamic within myself that gave rise to some exquisite feelings - some of the most beautiful moments of my life were attributable to the interplay between the practice of knowledge and the 'performance' of the 'perfect master'.

It was all a construct, an act. Fine. Wonderful. Makes me happy to know it. Because now I can understand that we are all f.u.m.s - and that the acceptance/love/worship/adoration of one f.u.m. by another releases endorphins.

We need focal points in our lives - and at certain stages we (I mean I) needed a hero. I dont want to replace one phantom of the light with an equally large and demonised 'shadow'.

So... sorry to go on.... it just worries me that whilst the anger and hurt of the ashram premies (for eg) is completely justified, and the depths of my own damage is just beginning to be visible to me... I still need to keep my feet on the ground - so that I can be clear about what has gone on.

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Date: Thurs, Mar 15, 2001 at 04:34:38 (GMT)
From: suchabanana
Email: None
To: Loaf
Subject: Imagine swirled peas:AA/(m.+10,000codependents)(nt
Message:
yikes!
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Date: Thurs, Mar 15, 2001 at 00:02:28 (GMT)
From: Dermot
Email: None
To: All
Subject: Three perspectives.....
Message:
And all very interesting. I'm also reminded of something Mark Appleman alluded to in his long post the other day. .Something about trying to reconcile PP Rawats personal (dysfunctional ,if you like) behaviour with his ability to still deliver powerful satsang . This to me is one of the mysteries.

Is he convicned he's right ? Is he cynically dishonest? Is he a product of deep deep childhood conditioning which he's just unable to escape from?

I know these days we disparage his satsang ….and as Jim regulary points out via posts of Rawat and premies a lot of it is simplistic bullshit. Nevertheless , in its time and place, it had a very powerful effect on our lives. On mine anyway. Ok , bring in the arguments of mass hysteria, collective desire and conditioning, individual subjective longing etc etc etc and we arrive at reasons to explain such an effect.

However , here's this person , from the age of six or seven to the present day for godsakes(!) discoursing about the true purpose of life, the true answer to a human beings existence. Along side that are reports ( which I don't dispute at all ) about this other person…….a dysfunctional , angry, selfish, pompous man who ( while all the time exhorting his followers to lead ' clean ' lifestyles and ,for chrissakes, in the early days to follow a life of ' poverty, chastity and obedience ' ! ) was binging away on sex, drink and drugs.Now I don't blame anyone for not being perfect. I'm always aware of my own deficiencies and frailties ……and I've had more than my share of sex, drink and drugs ( and still do ….albeit on a more moderate scale). BUT I've never tried to lead thousands of sincere , people to the truth. Whatever 'truth ' means of course. This to me is one of the greatest faults of PP Rawat……HYPOCRICY..

I remember a few years ago when I first became aware of this forum….a premie friend stated that th participants were just a bunch of wankers, stuck in the early 70's, dissatisfied with their lives now and looking for someone or something to blame. I didn't agree but I didn't vehemently disagree either. I couldn't be bothered arguing the toss.Yet it's more than a harking back to the early 70's ( though it includes that because PP Rawat said so much then that he's since tried to revise or even deny.

I got an email from my daughter today ( she's 22) …..amongst other topics( gossip, travels etc) she told me that she'd been to a programme with her mother. I, too, was 22 when I got K in 1973 .My daughter said ' the programme was ok but not something I'd go to a lot'

I was wondering how to respond …….I said something along the lines ' well it's a personal decision …..as you know, I'm no longer into it . I don't deny I had some good and interesting times and met a lot of amazing people along the way but if I had my time over I wouldn't get involved '. I left it at that. For the time being anyway.

I like and respect her mother…..she has a simple and sincere love for K and Rawat …..and doesn't spout off bullshit about K or her experience of it ……and she never has done. I don't think she knows too much about all the revelations we are aware of though ……and we live in different places and never chat much.

Part of me though was ruminating on the irony of it all, if my daughter got K aged 22 …….. the age I came to it. ( In my case ……burnt out from too much acid ……smoking dope with premies , listening to Astral weeks by Van the Man and feeling a really magical feeling and pull to this weird young Indian kid who was offering something I was sure I needed)…..My daughter is probably a lot more together than I was at the same age. I also remember …….holding my daughter in my arms on a campsite ….we were thousands of miles from home…..she was 10 months old…..my Indian guru and master passed by ……there was only a handful of people around ( though thousands were at the event in Kissimee 1979)… I remember swearing that …..even though I was generally a pretty spacy fucked up person, I'd never leave or desert my daughter …….and I'd never leave my master.

Something sad about this whole trip. Though the sadness comes and goes ( not a permanent thing)I never thought, in the early years that I'd ever leave PP Rawat, my master. And I never would have believed that he wasn't this great ( divine, if you like) instrument for truth and goodness.

Mishler? A bongo who believed in his own ego and strayed from the true master.

HA !!! Wwhat a long strange trip it's been.

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Date: Thurs, Mar 15, 2001 at 11:23:39 (GMT)
From: wolfi
Email: None
To: Dermot
Subject: Three perspectives.....
Message:
I can see a part of my history in youre story.I had been in Kissimee too with my 2 little kids. Long time I was thinking I've done something wrong that my kids never get interested in K, but now I think I must have done somthing right because they never were interested.

thanks for youre story ....wolfi

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Date: Thurs, Mar 15, 2001 at 00:18:48 (GMT)
From: Michael Dettmers
Email: dettmers@gylanix.com
To: Dermot
Subject: Thanks for your perspective as well Dermot
Message:
Very moving and much appreciated.

Michael

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Date: Wed, Mar 14, 2001 at 20:43:58 (GMT)
From: Francesca
Email: None
To: Loaf
Subject: Shopping for an upgrade. thanks all
Message:
Brilliant, Loaf!

Its a deep psychological trouble spot - I am certain that it has (for better or for worse) kept me trapped in a state of childlike dependency. When we first realise that our parents are fucked up mortals (f.u.m.)- there is a distinct awakening (or there was for me) - so it seems I immediately went shopping for an upgrade.

Thanks to all. This is a great thread.

:-> F

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Date: Wed, Mar 14, 2001 at 20:15:58 (GMT)
From: Mike Finch
Email: None
To: Loaf
Subject: To Mikes Det/Don/Finch and all PAMs
Message:
I have experienced Maharaji drinking, and drinking heavily, but never when it would compromise his flying, or giving satsang at a programme.

I don't know about the definition of 'alcoholic', but it was clear to me that his drinking was at least under control enough so that it did not affect these core activities.

-- Mike

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Date: Wed, Mar 14, 2001 at 20:41:00 (GMT)
From: Dermot
Email: None
To: Mike Finch
Subject: Hi Mike ...did you find a good translation
Message:
of Gilgamesh?

Actually ....I hope it's in there .....I realised later I may have mixed it up with some other stuff .....but I assure you it was definitely Sumerian !! I was actually reading a big anthology with Gilgamesh included. Ha.

Anyway , hope you are ok and enjoyed your recent UK visit. Jeeze , we've still got a brain drain then.....must be all that dosh over there in the states !!

Best Wishes

Dermot

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Date: Wed, Mar 14, 2001 at 20:27:27 (GMT)
From: Pat Conlon
Email: None
To: Mike Finch
Subject: To Mike Finch - hope you had fun at Latvian Night
Message:
and didn't have a hangover. We're doing one in San Francisco in June. What's your poison? Just kidding. Glad to see you're back.
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Date: Wed, Mar 14, 2001 at 09:03:24 (GMT)
From: Dermot
Email: None
To: Loaf
Subject: yep..drinker/alcoholic...big difference
Message:
Yep I wondered about that too Loaf....a drinker ...even an occasional heavy drinker is not neccesarily alcoholic in the medical sense.

Also booze has different effects on different people .....the old saying .....some can take their booze/grog whatever.Some people have a few drinks and do a jekyll and Hyde and turn violent whilst others become sentimental and soppy. I tend to get depressed and desolate to the core if I have too much of the stuff (much prefer a smoke of something nice with maybe a bit of organic wine( no headaches with that)So yaeh it'd be good to know is he REALLY an alcoholic OR just a drinker AND what type of effect does booze tend to have on him.

So anyone with first hand knowledge.....fire away please.

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Date: Wed, Mar 14, 2001 at 11:56:25 (GMT)
From: Brian Smith
Email: None
To: Dermot
Subject: yep..drinker/alcoholic... my experience
Message:
Ok Dermot, I have some experience here as a recovering alcoholic with 18 years sobriety.
I was a binge drinker, I did not drink every day or even every other day, sometimes I would not drink for days or weeks or occasionally even months at a time.

When I did drink it was for one purpose only, to get drunk, not to socialize, not to relax, I simply wanted to get really drunk and get out of my body and escape reality. I was not a violent drunk, I was the guy with the lampshade on his head and the microphone in his hand singing every song I ever heard off key and carrying on loudly, usually until I passed out and had to be carried to bed.

This kind of drinking is alcoholic behavior. On the surface, my life was not a total shambles, I ran a successful business, maintained relationships, but whenever I started drinking I turned into this nonstop hell bent for fun and glory idiot that did not and sometimes could not stop partying for days. This is where I got into trouble and began acting irresponsibly, driving drunk, lying about my drinking and making excuses for my erratic behavior. Coming off of this binge cycle usually meant paying the price for my reckless behavior which got harder and harder to do as people around me gradually lost faith in me.

I was a struggle trying to make up for work and appointments that I flaked off while bingeing. I missed opportunities and broke many promises and damaged my trust and reputation by not being available to my responibilities for my family and business associates. Eventually the backlash and pain was every bit as harsh as a alcoholic's only not as frequent as a routine daily drunk's payback.

The big danger for me was that being self employed I did not have to answer to or be accountable to anyone other than myself so while I was out there bingeing I did not have any pressure to stop myself until I burned out and/or completed the cycle.

What finally made me stop drinking and using drugs was, the cycles started to get longer and more frequent, it became more difficult to break the cycle and I somehow had the presence of mind in my sober cycle to recognize what was going on and get help and treatment. Which meant 4 weeks outpatient and AA for about 3 years. I quit AA several years ago because it had all of the trappings of another cult about it. I saw those who carried sobriety too far and made a religion out of it and it completly turned me off. Why it took so long for me to find out the same thing about M is another question.

I have had no relapses since 1983 and I averted what for me could have been a dangerously escalating progressive disease. My older brother who did not quit drinking died 4 years ago from alcoholism at age 50 as did his son at age 28 recently.

I do not know for sure what M's pattern with drinking was or is but anyone who has to be taken care of put to bed and so forth or be protected while drinking definately has a problem and is acting and drinking like an alcoholic.
The fact that M even drank at all does not make sense if he were the lord incarnate as he was purported to be.

Hearing stories of the Lard's drinking just makes it easier for me to release him from my psyche and feel extra good about doing so. Particularly after having beaten the problem for myself and he seemingly unable to do so, and yes, I liked cognac too, Corvasier, Remy Martin, Hennessey to name a few old favorite choices.

So there M , here is mud in your eye, if you are so perfect, why can't you get a grip on your vices? And by the way, weren't you the one who said that this knowledge is perfect? you don't need to add anything to it or take anything away from it, So why then add alcohol oh perfect one, what are you missing?

What are you trying to escape from Maharaji? Could it be that you are afraid of facing up to the phony baloney, master, devotee bullshit that you have perpetrated over the years.

I am not saying everyone should stop drinking, I think social drinking is great, I work in clubs and am around alcohol all of the time. If drinking poses a potential problem in ones life, then the responsible thing is to do something about it.

Evidently the Lard adds alcohol to his long list of things to be irresponsible about.

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Date: Wed, Mar 14, 2001 at 16:02:58 (GMT)
From: michael donner
Email: None
To: Loaf
Subject: alcohol and m
Message:
i wonder about labels and how useful they are...but the point is basically that m has been drinking every day...every day since at least 1972 (til 1987) that i know of; and drinking lots each day and lots and lots many days. my observation was that he would wait til later in the day and begin to position himself,arrange his life and schedule around the residence or whereever he was to begin to have his conquac (sp?). this to me is a typical sign of an alcoholic.

this, by itself, does not make him a 'bad' person but certainly reveals a significant weakness, especially in light of how many times those around him attempted (if weakly) to encourage him to change this distructive behaviour.

the question for me became, how can i be in a co-dependent relationship with this person. and because i turned a blind eye for so long speaks mostly to the climite of fear that m created around him. fear that 'if i spoke out too loudly or too often' i would be replaced by the long line of premies waiting to take my place 'at the lotus feet'. Or, 'I would be further ostrisized by the other 'devotees' around him for questioning the actions of the 'lord'.

my experience was that m established this pattern of fear control in all areas of the cult. his 'satsang' about needing him, losing our way if...being stuck forever on some plateau, etc etc.

closer to him he would always use this fear process to divide us from each other (those around him). he would set up a 'regular channel' to get things done but always undermine it by having the
'residence premies' carrying a different message to or from him; for example.

Of course there was the overall fear he tried to create that we would disappoint him, that we would become disloyal to him somehow. This one was especially effective with me for so many years...especially as m was a father figure for me thru most of those years. and interesting how his alcoholism played into seeing him as vulunerable even....making disloyalty even harder. i think this happens in many co-dependent type situations.

the main point here is that who would care or why would it matter unless another image or personna was trying to be perpetuated. as in the case of m. he wanted to be seen as this powerful, all knowing, gentle, in control, 'i can take care of you' sort of guy.
all the while, nothing was further from the truth.

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Date: Wed, Mar 14, 2001 at 20:53:17 (GMT)
From: Brian Smith
Email: None
To: michael donner
Subject: alcohol and m /thanks michael
Message:
i wonder about labels and how useful they are..

Regardless of labels, the information that you just provided about m's alcohol abuse took me a quantum leap in my cult recovery process here.

For years I felt so guilty and I felt so bad for betraying Maharaji by sneaking around drinking after he had rallied against the use of drugs and Alcohol.

I can't tell you how much more free and clear free it makes me feel now michael after I struggled for many years with the problem to find out what a hypocrite and liar he is, especially from someone who saw firsthand what was going on.

Thanks

.

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Date: Wed, Mar 14, 2001 at 19:56:54 (GMT)
From: Pat Conlon
Email: None
To: michael donner
Subject: Thanks Donner and Brian
Message:
My father drank himself to death at 57 and there were many other alcoholics in my family. It explains many of the things that I suspected about Rev Rawat and hopefully on day he will see how alcohol is keeping him in a state of denial.
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Date: Wed, Mar 14, 2001 at 18:07:24 (GMT)
From: Cynthia
Email: None
To: michael donner
Subject: alcohol and m
Message:
Hi Mike,

You said:

i wonder about labels and how useful they are...but the point is basically that m has been drinking every day...every day since at least 1972 (til 1987) that i know of; and drinking lots each day and lots and lots many days. my observation was that he would wait til later in the day and begin to position himself,arrange his life and schedule around the residence or whereever he was to begin to have his conquac (sp?). this to me is a typical sign of an alcoholic.

this, by itself, does not make him a 'bad' person but certainly reveals a significant weakness, especially in light of how many times those around him attempted (if weakly) to encourage him to change this distructive behaviour.

Your description, Mike, is of a classic alcoholic. It really doesn't matter what label is used, yet, ''alcoholic'' is the correct term here. It is an illness and Maharaji is sick. Quite sick, IMO, when you factor in the ''forced co-dependency'' in the context of the cult. The fact he's been drinking consistently every day since '72--how old would that have made him then???, certainly indicates he's used mood altering drugs (alcohol and pot) to bury his emotions and the real world, with which he's clearly out of touch.

The story Michael Dettmers told here recently about his mood swings while under the influence at a restaurant, driving recklessly with his wife and kids in the car, indicates a bad alcohol problem. A belligerant drunk. There are all kinds, definitions. Alcoholic describes Maharaji quite well.

However, if he's been drinking that long without a break, I wonder what his behavior would have been like without that illness.

And it certainly explains why, at DECA, Maharaji always came first thing in the morning....and was such a crabby, bratty, I want it my way type of guy...

btw, it spelled ''cognac'' and is quite high in the percentage of alcohol, and sugars, as well.

Mike, is he addicted to food too? Not a joke, I'm curious, because I am too, and wonder if he monged down a lot or is naturally fat.

Love,
Cynthia


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Date: Wed, Mar 14, 2001 at 17:17:59 (GMT)
From: loaf
Email: None
To: michael donner
Subject: alcohol and m
Message:
I only was at the residence once or twice when he was at home - and it was a horrible tense strained atmosphere.

It really was the deciding point where I started to move away from him.

I am so glad I did - thankyou all for filling in the blanks for me - keep filling !

Loaf

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Date: Wed, Mar 14, 2001 at 16:49:47 (GMT)
From: Joe
Email: None
To: michael donner
Subject: alcohol and m
Message:
Interesting insight, Mike.

I guess Maharaji had almost an unlimited number of potential co-dependents. Nobody around him was about to confront his drinking problem, and everyone had the motivation to make any consequences from his drinking nonexistent. Amazing. The ultimate co-dependent relationship. Sounds like the worst possible situation both for him and for the premies.

I grew up in an acoholic family, although I've never had the problem myself, thank God. My father drank until he was in his 60s and then, through AA, he stopped. He told me once that the definition of an alcoholic is somebody who has a 'problem' with drinking, not someone who is falling down drunk all the time, and I rarely ever saw my dad that way. Basically, it's a situation in which drinking has effects on his or her life that are not positive.

Also, I remember he said that you have a problem with drinking if people want you to stop, and you can't. If they asked to stop drinking orange juice you could, but not alcohol, for example. Also, my Dad said, anybody who arranges their lives to get alcohol, is an alcoholic. My dad said, he consciously tried to arrange things, be places, etc., where he knew there would be alcohol. Sounds like Maharaji did the same thing, although it was even easier for him, because he was running everything and nobody was going to confront him about it. He really didn't have to hide it, although he did from the non-X-rated premies, that's for sure.

And I think part of the evidence of M's drinking problem was that he kept it a secret from the premies. I wouldn't have dreamed Maharaji ever drank, let alone every day, getting drunk, etc. And the fact that he was telling us ashramers to never drink was just so hypocritical.

Michael, did you ever hear of anybody confronting M about his drinking? Did he ever drink at festivals? [Sophia Collier says in her book that Maharaji was drinking heavily at Millennium and was half sloshed when he gave satsang there.]

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Date: Wed, Mar 14, 2001 at 21:30:43 (GMT)
From: Michael Dettmers
Email: dettmers@gylanix.com
To: Joe
Subject: alcohol and m
Message:
Joe,

I have already addressed Maharaji's drinking several times, so I won't repeat myself again. I will, however, repeat what I said last November when I recounted a meeting I had with Maharaji in which I confronted him about his drinking.

At a meeting between the two of us at his apartment in Miami, I told him that his drinking, and the torrent of abuse and negativity it unleashed, led me to believe that he no longer cared about his life or his mission. I told him that he seemed unnaturally angry and dissatisfied, especially since he was offering others the key to peace and happiness, and had everything including countless people ready to respond to his every whim. I mentioned that I was particularly concerned that he always blamed someone for his state of dissatisfaction. I told him that this pattern of behavior put me, and him, in a very dangerous situation. My service to Maharaji required that I exercise good judgment and seek expert advice to fulfill his wishes. To that end, I worked diligently to understand and make his concerns my concerns, and I acted out of those concerns to the best of my ability. I reminded him that I carried a tremendous responsibility to ensure that his affairs were handled properly. The IRS for example, audited him on two more occasions following the 1976 – 1977 audit I referred to in a previous post. Had my team and I not ensured that all of his affairs adhered strictly to the groundrules that were established then, Maharaji could again find himself in difficulty. That never happened on my watch but I was very aware that if anything had gone wrong, I would have been held accountable and I understood and accepted that responsibility. But I became increasingly wary of his tendency to blame others and look for scapegoats upon whom to deflect responsibility and accountability if things didn’t go his way. The concept of “mutual” responsibility and accountability totally escaped Maharaji.

Because of his excessive drinking and the recurrent behavior that ensued, I come to the painful realization that he no longer cared about anyone or anything. I told him how utterly paralyzed I became when this realization dawned on me. Because I was no longer able to make his concerns my concerns, the very fabric of what constituted “service” for me and that which motivated me to act had died, and I told him so that day. He listened quietly as I spoke and did not respond when I was finished. He did not appear angry. He simply got up and left the room.

Michael

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Date: Wed, Mar 14, 2001 at 22:05:01 (GMT)
From: Kelly
Email: karen@ringrose.org.uk
To: Michael Dettmers
Subject: Mike, I just e-mailed you nt
Message:
mmmmm
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Date: Wed, Mar 14, 2001 at 22:03:08 (GMT)
From: Joe
Email: None
To: Michael Dettmers
Subject: alcohol and m
Message:
Thanks, Michael,

I remember you saying you confronted Maharaji about this, actually, I was wondering if Michael Donner had also seen anything like that.

Did Maharaji ever blame you for things that went wrong? Did did he blame individual people, or did he just blame 'premies' in general. Can you give some examples of things that went wrong that he blamed others for? Did Maharaji fire people when he blamed them? What did people do who were blamed? Did people ever quit?

Did he ever blame anyone for the slow progress or propagation, money shortages, etc.?

From what you are saying, I gather that Maharaji got abusive when he drank, or at least got more abusive when he drank. Is that correct? Was he abusive when he didn't drink?

Down below, I described that abusive scene at DECA about the Hans Jayanti stage that I found very chilling. Have you seen that kind of behavior before from Maharaji? Was it common? Do you think it might have had to do with drinking?

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Date: Wed, Mar 14, 2001 at 23:42:55 (GMT)
From: Michael Dettmers
Email: dettmers@gylanix.com
To: Joe
Subject: alcohol and m
Message:
Joe,

I'll get to your questions a bit later when I have more time. Let me add one thing to what I have said about M's drinking that perhaps Michael Donner remembers as well. When M’s kids were still babies, on several occasions I saw him spoon-feed one or two spoonfuls of cognac from his glass to whichever one of his children he happened to be holding in his arms.

Later on, when I had finally come to the conclusion that he had a drinking problem, I wondered if that was done to him as well, which could well account for his drinking at such a young age.

Michael

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Date: Wed, Mar 14, 2001 at 21:57:57 (GMT)
From: Katie Darling
Email: None
To: Michael Dettmers
Subject: alcohol and m
Message:
Michael Dettmers, God, you really had me there, describing that scene with MJ. Amazing. I cannot imagine the level of paralysis you must have felt. It sounds as though you were pretty lucid and clear and told him things that were very helpful, about his behaviors and how they were affecting you.

Of course, it usually takes a real intervention to change anything at this level of denial. It's almost like a deprgramming - doors locked, the whole family and anyone else affected by the person's behavior, so that they have to listen and can't just walk out of the room. Wouldn't it have been interesting if you had been able to get thirty people to do this with you? I realize that it was quite impossible, given the cult mindset. But thinking about what you said and about interventions has made me realize that this whole EPO thing is in the nature of a kind of intervention-at-a-distance. Not that our main purpose is really anything to do with him, but to do with helping ourselves and other entrapped ones get healed. But when something is said enough times by enough people it constitutes a kind of intervention, as long as he is hearing some of it. Do you think he is?

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Date: Wed, Mar 14, 2001 at 23:25:43 (GMT)
From: Michael Dettmers
Email: dettmers@gylanix.com
To: Katie Darling
Subject: alcohol and m
Message:
Katie,

During the time I was around him he certainly heard what was said but he refused to listen. I can't speak with the same certainty about the present but, thanks to Kelly who sent me a video of his recent organizer training session in Atlanta, he appeared as arrogant as ever, and continues to blame his problems on the actions of others. This same approach is evidenced in the FAQ section of Élan Vital's website. I suspect that there is a correlation between his drinking problem and his propensity to blame others without ever taking responsibility for, or acknowledging, or apologizing for, his mistakes.

Michael

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Date: Wed, Mar 14, 2001 at 12:42:03 (GMT)
From: Loaf
Email: None
To: Brian Smith
Subject: Thanks Brian - that helps me to focus things
Message:
I like the line :

Hearing stories of the Lard's drinking just makes it easier for me to release him from my psyche and feel extra good about doing so.

This 'release' is very satisfying to me... and I know I am only just starting to properly do it.

Thanks for reminding me

Loaf

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Date: Thurs, Mar 15, 2001 at 00:47:08 (GMT)
From: michael donner
Email: None
To: all
Subject: blaming others...
Message:
hi again, i think it was joe (above or below) who asked if i ever saw or heard of a more active intervention re m's drinking. i was never a part of one, bob mishler, to his credit once tried to speak to him about it and got no where of course.

interestng that the notion of m blaming others comes up in context of his abuse of alcohol. i personally believe that he uses booz to cover over the anxiety he feels by trying to play the part of someone in control and capable of creation and control and the reality that he is so bad, terribly bad at creating a lasting vehicle to responsibily spread knowledge.

his blame was constant. behind the door of his home or whatever he would not hesitate to name specific individuals he thought were 'idiots (and worse)'. never to their face, never. i know he spoke about me in negatives more then a few times but to myface only occasionally would make some rude joke about my nature (his view of it) which would clue me to his hesitations about me (look, i'm gone,he was right, he could not trust me). i was sent many times to 'deal' with someone he was scapegoating and never allowed to quote him...try to get the message of dissatisfaction across without destroying the person and create some distraction for them, another service or whatever, and keep the ball of illusion moving forward.

for me, those were the most gut renching times as i carried a thing from my upbringing about fairness and respect for honest effort. i use to feeling and believe that those assignments were a test...that he knew more about me then i did and was determined to beat my sense of community and fair play towards others out of me for my own good so that i could surrender only to him. as i write this remembering, it brings up lots of saddness for me. over the years i have tried to mend some fences with some and let the rest go, trusting the universe to bring us round.

he was guttless, never dooing his dirty work. he even created double trouble, sending one of us on an errand to move someone, say something, only to publicly contradict the messenger. all part of some strange idea he had about stepping on any potential base of power other then himself. completely insecure. unable to manage honestly and openly what he himeself would put in motion.

i think alcohol was one means he chose to be able to get thru a day dealing with the contradictions he created himself.

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Date: Thurs, Mar 15, 2001 at 02:54:03 (GMT)
From: Francesca
Email: None
To: michael donner
Subject: Thanks for your gut wrenching honesty
Message:
We all did stupid things to others, just on a lower level, on not such a grand scale. But we all grit our teeth at some memories.

I shudder to think how that worked --
when it was flowing it was bliss
when it wasn't or when you were told to do something that was totally wrong it was a test
when things looked very bad you were just seeing thing improperly, you were not devoted, you were blind to the truth.

These elements are in the guru-disciple relationships in many traditions. In Tibetan Buddhism, if you read some of the old dogmatic guru yoga stuff, it will blow your mind, especially by such traditionalists as Jamgon Kongtrul. i read the Torch of Certainty several times when I was practicing ngondro (preliminary practices) and each time there were so many things in there that rubbed me the wrong way, just were scary.

It remains the same in all cults. If you don't like it, you are not sseing things clearly. You are deluded. It was very refreshing when last summer at a retreat when two Western Lamas asked Thrangu Rinpoche about seeing a teacher do things you believe to be wrong, and the Jamgon Kongtrul stuff about seeing your teacher as buddha. He stuck to his guns. 'You can't turn your head around like that.' The Dalai Lama has pretty much said the same thing. Hindu, Buddhist, Christian, all that dogma has to go. It has to evolve. It has to get real.

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Date: Thurs, Mar 15, 2001 at 02:52:20 (GMT)
From: Francesca
Email: None
To: michael donner
Subject: Thank you for your gut wrenching honesty
Message:
We all did stupid things to others, just on a lower level, on not such a grand scale. But we all grit our teeth at some memories.

I shudder to think how that worked --
when it was flowing it was bliss
when it wasn't or when you were told to do something that was totally wrong it was a test
when things looked very bad you were just seeing thing improperly, you were not devoted, you were blind to the truth.

These elements are in the guru-disciple relationships in many traditions. In Tibetan Buddhism, if you read some of the old dogmatic guru yoga stuff, it will blow your mind, especially by such traditionalists as Jamgon Kongtrul. i read the Torch of Certainty several times when I was practicing ngondro (preliminary practices) and each time there were so many things in there that rubbed me the wrong way, just were scary.

It remains the same in all cults. If you don't like it, you are not sseing things clearly. You are deluded. It was very refreshing when last summer at a retreat when two Western Lamas asked Thrangu Rinpoche about seeing a teacher do things you believe to be wrong, and the Jamgon Kongtrul stuff about seeing your teacher as perfect. He stuck to his guns. 'You can't turn your head around like that.' The Dalai Lama has pretty much said the same thing. Hindu, Buddhist, Christian, all that dogma has to go. It has to evolve.

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Date: Thurs, Mar 15, 2001 at 02:49:06 (GMT)
From: Katie Darling
Email: None
To: michael donner
Subject: blaming others...
Message:
That sucks big time - particularly the part about having to be the messenger when it went against your sense of fair play.

In my own way I had a similar experience. Travelling with mahatmas around Spain and South America, I would often be used as the 'bad cop' to try to intimidate certain people into more devotion before giving them Knowledge, or some other nastiness that the mahatma didn't want connected to themselves.

It's amazing how the dysfunction just trickled on down, and I, too have some remorse about how I let myself be used. Posting here has been part of my way of making amends, and also, like you, I've left the rest to the universe to bring around in right timing.

Thanks for your support above. Love Katie Darling

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Date: Wed, Mar 14, 2001 at 04:05:46 (GMT)
From: La-ex
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: I'm lying in bed and I realize I'm free!
Message:
Does anyone else have these experiences?

1)I'm lying in bed, either late at night before going off to sleep, or first thing in the morning, and I have this incredible realization that I AM FREE!
rawat has no hold over me, I can laugh at him, and feel sorry for all the people still sucked in by him. But me, I'm free?
It really feels good.
I realized today that I have been waking up each day with this understanding for qutie some time now, and how good it feels to have my own life back again.

2)My involvement with EPO has gone from glancing at 'premie pornography', to a 'casual interest', to a 'fear of getting too into it', to 'loving every minute of it'...
Seriously, I have seen wit, wisdom, poetry, music, video,brawling, joking, intellectual stimulation, nitpicking, and a whole lot more that just tickles me in many ways and heals me in others...
This place is fun! (Compare it to some of m's sites...)

3)As Pat said, I think I've fallen in love with about 20 people,
and enjoying it thoroughly!
(BTW, some of your descriptions like 'Industrial Strength Church Ladies' crack me up. I think I literally fell off my chair when I read that one.)
I'm glad to see some of the PAMS posting, as I think it is very important to the credibility issue.

I also enjoy Pauline,TED,EV, E.Windsor and the rest of the gang...(fallen off the chair for a few of their posts as well...sometimes I laugh from the depths of my being...)

Should we all get together sometime?
A lake in the summer, or Fla. in the winter?
Have some fun, reconnect with kindred spirits...

Thank you everyone for being yourself on the EPO...

La-ex

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Date: Wed, Mar 14, 2001 at 08:32:26 (GMT)
From: Loaf
Email: loafji@yahoo.com
To: La-ex
Subject: Yipeee !
Message:
Lets have a festival (sorry I couldnt make the Latvian guys) - we can have competitions for 'best crown', 'best slow motion dancing' - 'shrillest use of the word 'Premie' etc etc

we can have dunk the satsang chair - guess the weight of the satuguru.....

We can all be involved in a hierarchy of some sort. I want a walky talkie !!!

Oh pleeeeeaaase can we.....

Service applications (and cash) to Loafji@yahoo.com

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Date: Wed, Mar 14, 2001 at 07:56:50 (GMT)
From: Tony Walker
Email: parisw@ozemail.com.au
To: La-ex
Subject: My sentiments precisely.
Message:
G'day La-Ex,
I have been feeling exactly the same as you.This must be a group cosciousness amongst Ex Premies.Whilst we are enjoying the fruits of new found freedom,the premies are readying themselves for less and less freedom.Amaroo is not far away now(if it goes ahead that is)

Cheers Tony (formerly Aussi Ji)

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Date: Wed, Mar 14, 2001 at 04:24:59 (GMT)
From: Pat Conlon
Email: pdconlon@yahoo.com
To: La-ex
Subject: I'm free! Me too, La-ex, wheeee
Message:
Your handle made me think you lived in California. I hope you will be coming to Latvian Night in San Francisco which is currently being arranged for June 2nd.

I'm happy for you. I'm happy for me and I just love being a FVoholic.

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Date: Wed, Mar 14, 2001 at 03:36:27 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: 'MIKE DONNER' IS A PREMIE PLANT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Message:
Okay, this is amazing. God how I wish Joey were here. Anyway, it's time to rethink everything nice I've said about Dettmers, 'Donner' and any of their friends. It turns out that 'Donner' -- whoever he really is -- is a premie plant! That's right, a spy.

How do I know?

In a post below, 'Donner' said the following:

hi don, i just wanted to add my voice to the statements of pat conlon. seems to me that practicing some good technology to go within and experience so of our essense is awfully necessary for me. wherein lies the contradiction that makes m such a looser. he always tries to draw our attention out towards him. oh, not with his words, with his actions and all that he sets up around him.
you say that you go to programs so you must notice this contradiction...or at least notice how this external show becomes a distraction for others at the program...as you might be the exception.

(emphasis added)

Now anyone who's posted here for any length of time at all knows that 'looser' is a unique premie misspelling for 'loser'. In fact, it might even be a code for something. What do I know? What do I know? Well I know one thing -- only premies say 'looser'. That's what I know and that's what I know.

Okay, back to work on this autospy report.

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Date: Wed, Mar 14, 2001 at 09:40:04 (GMT)
From: sumo boy
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: 'MIKE DONNER' IS A PREMIE PLANT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Message:
paranioa rules supreme!!!
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Date: Wed, Mar 14, 2001 at 07:17:49 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: You spoiled my joke, you fucking loosers! (nt)
Message:
hhhhh
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Date: Wed, Mar 14, 2001 at 09:42:18 (GMT)
From: sumo boy
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: You spoiled my joke, you fucking loosers! (nt)
Message:
fuck , I should'ave read this post before posting ...
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Date: Wed, Mar 14, 2001 at 11:08:30 (GMT)
From: LLOOOOOOOssssssssssseer
Email: None
To: sumo boy
Subject: You spoiled my joke, you fucking loosers! (nt)
Message:
nt
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Date: Wed, Mar 14, 2001 at 08:25:05 (GMT)
From: Pat Conlon
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: exited utterances
Message:
You may have to use an emotikon for your lampoons to distinguish them from the un-ironic exited utterances (do lawyers use that phrase up there?) of our more volatile brethren. Or you could adopt a satirical alter-ego for your excursions into satire. Thelma's available right now. I'm sick of the bitch. You can have her.
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Date: Wed, Mar 14, 2001 at 17:21:19 (GMT)
From: Cynthia
Email: None
To: Pat Conlon
Subject: Pat: ''exited utterances'' LOLOL! (nt)
Message:
nt
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Date: Wed, Mar 14, 2001 at 20:23:20 (GMT)
From: Pat Conlon
Email: None
To: Cynthia
Subject: Cyn, I wish that had been a pun and not a typo NT
Message:
j
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Date: Wed, Mar 14, 2001 at 08:28:40 (GMT)
From: Thelma
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Pity the name Victoria Bitter has already been
Message:
grabbed by the she-boy wombat-weasle with the sun-tanned toned bod.
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Date: Wed, Mar 14, 2001 at 11:26:09 (GMT)
From: Victoria Bitter
Email: None
To: Thelma
Subject: Pity the name Victoria Bitter has already been
Message:
Did you also know VB is Australia's most popular high octane beer? Put's a whole new twist on things eh?
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Date: Wed, Mar 14, 2001 at 06:16:05 (GMT)
From: Postie
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: PREMIE PLANT- like the tree of knowledge? n/t
Message:
nt
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Date: Wed, Mar 14, 2001 at 07:02:13 (GMT)
From: Tonette
Email: None
To: Postie
Subject: premie plant-would that be garden variety
Message:
or a hybrid?
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Date: Wed, Mar 14, 2001 at 06:24:36 (GMT)
From: Robyn
Email: None
To: Postie
Subject: PREMIE PLANT- like the tree of knowledge? n/t :)
Message:
wopih
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Date: Wed, Mar 14, 2001 at 05:13:53 (GMT)
From: Francesca
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Now Jim ...
Message:
not everyone can spell. Do you have an aversion to lower case and misspellings? After all, you get into it with janet every now and then (although not lately).

Hmmmmm....

He gave his e-mail address in another post -- perhaps you could e-mail him and get this straightened out!

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Date: Wed, Mar 14, 2001 at 05:43:25 (GMT)
From: G
Email: None
To: Francesca
Subject: or call him
Message:
Calling him would be more certain. I'm a little suspicious of both 'donner' and 'Guy Rollins'. How do we know who they are? As for me remaining publicly anonymous, I have my reasons. A few people here know who I am.
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Date: Wed, Mar 14, 2001 at 04:41:54 (GMT)
From: G
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: a test
Message:
I think you wrote about meeting with Mike Donner. Maybe you could ask him something about that meeting that you didn't mention.

I noticed the 'looser' spelling, not capitalizing sentences, etc. It does seem a bit odd. But why would a premie plant confirm what Dettmers wrote about Rawat?

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Date: Wed, Mar 14, 2001 at 04:45:53 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: G
Subject: Great idea!
Message:
Mr. 'Donner' --

Did I or did I not eat my vegetables that night? What kind of watch was I wearing? What was our waiter's name? Last name? Hm?

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Date: Wed, Mar 14, 2001 at 04:10:52 (GMT)
From: Catweasel
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: 'MIKE DONNER' IS A PREMIE PLANT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Message:
Fuck your bright Jim. Shit, never would have picked it. Thank God you are here to save and protect us. God , you are a Genius!
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Date: Wed, Mar 14, 2001 at 04:08:33 (GMT)
From: la-ex
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Jim, are you 'loosing it'?.'Loosen up,' pal.nt
Message:
nt
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Date: Wed, Mar 14, 2001 at 03:44:31 (GMT)
From: salam
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Well Mr. DONNER
Message:
Please step on the witness stand. What have got to say aginst this alligation?
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Date: Wed, Mar 14, 2001 at 03:52:34 (GMT)
From: michael donner
Email: None
To: salam
Subject: Well Mr. DONNER
Message:
well, my daddy use to say that if ya can't spell you'll never make anything of yourself. and i am so bad at spelling that i often cannot even find a word in the dictionary to see how to spell it.

that is why i always rose to high places in any organization that i became a part of...so i could get a secretary that could cover for me. what can i say...if it ain't broke, don't fix it. Its worked all these years.

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Date: Wed, Mar 14, 2001 at 10:20:42 (GMT)
From: janet
Email: None
To: michael donner
Subject: Well Mr. DONNER, since James The Paranoid has
Message:
now opened the question, suppose we make the test something that only a person who served as maharajis right hand man could know, that you and michael dettmers would know, but that no average imposter premie ex on the street could know?

we seem [ and James The Paranoid seems ] to have accepted dettmers as who he is, so you would have to think of something that he could confirm, that none of use would know.
some peculiarity at the residence?
some particular odd thing maharaji did as a habit? custom? personal practice? something in his office in denver?
think.
whats something dettmers could confirm, that no other person here could know about? especially not an inposter?

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Date: Wed, Mar 14, 2001 at 06:15:36 (GMT)
From: Joy
Email: None
To: michael donner
Subject: Well Mr. DONNER
Message:
I've always thought it strange that you have to look words up in the dictionary to get the correct spelling, but you have to know the spelling to look them up.

I'm the polar opposite from you in that I knew how to spell every word in the dictionary from about the age of 10 without ever studying any of it; perhaps that's why I ended up in the typesetting room and you ended up as M's PA? Who says you need to spell to get ahead!

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Date: Wed, Mar 14, 2001 at 15:31:48 (GMT)
From: michael donner
Email: None
To: Joy
Subject: Well Mr. DONNER
Message:
ya, my thoughts about spelling and the dictionary exactly. the irony of using the dictionary to find a word you can't spell reminds me of trying to focus inside and grow our own power while trying to focus outside on a guru and giving our power away.

i thougt jim's joke was just fine and i am open to his way of drawing folks out.

and to G: what tipped you off that guy rollins and i might be plants? curious yellow.

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Date: Wed, Mar 14, 2001 at 15:52:14 (GMT)
From: Postie
Email: None
To: michael donner
Subject: Speaking of premie plants Donner...
Message:
Here's a question that'll prove who you are once and for all.

Who rolled 'em. You or the Sat Guru?

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Date: Wed, Mar 14, 2001 at 11:10:14 (GMT)
From: Salam
Email: None
To: Joy
Subject: Talk about spelling
Message:
So is the man free or not?
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Date: Thurs, Mar 15, 2001 at 01:16:29 (GMT)
From: michael donenr
Email: None
To: postie (richard
Subject: who rolled them...
Message:
not really sure who rolled them. never me and i doubt it was m. probably the butler...alvaro or john or patrick or whoever. by the way, i never smoked with m in the kitridge building (i don't think) but more then once around his home.

on a personal note my ussual feeling around the 'residence' was most often boredom. the endless hours of hanging around waiting to be called upon, waiting to give a report, waiting to be asked a question..even waiting to party that evening, whatever was mostly boring, boring, boring. i remember being envious of dettmers because he could come and go, had arranged a system of appointments with m. i tried that once and he mocked me...who did i think i was dettmers, he said with a laugh.
so i had to create excuses to be away from the endless waiting, gossip, dish washing, mindless stories told again and again, the litttle dramas of the fears and concerns of the inner staff.

my nature was active, social, let's do something, kick this thing into gear...so, i figured, as i often did to justify the situation, that he was just busting my nature, creating situations for me to surrender to him in. but god it was painful most of the time.

and what did that say in my head when the 'satsang' kicked in? what an ungrateful retch i was, couldn't even relax at the lotus feet...boy, i sure needed to get straighten out and dr. m knew all about me and just what i needed to get fixed.

even getting stoned a few times a month in miami or malibu was boring to me. but imagine not showing up...choosing other friends over such a covetted opportunity. great balls of fire.

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Date: Thurs, Mar 15, 2001 at 01:28:21 (GMT)
From: Ricahrd
Email: None
To: michael donenr
Subject: who rolled them...
Message:
And to think almost everyone else would have walk on glass on their knees to SPEAK with M. Your description of the boredom and bad treatment at M's whim is one less brick in the wall.

R

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Date: Thurs, Mar 15, 2001 at 01:46:09 (GMT)
From: Tap Nocnol
Email: None
To: Ricahrd n michael donenr
Subject: who rolled them...not me
Message:
tub ti kools kile yuo wot ugys idi.
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Date: Thurs, Mar 15, 2001 at 09:23:00 (GMT)
From: janet
Email: None
To: Tap Nocnol
Subject: no wuckin'furries, mate--dave's not here, man
Message:
nt
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Date: Thurs, Mar 15, 2001 at 01:49:51 (GMT)
From: Drahcir
Email: None
To: Tap Nocnol
Subject: I'm stuckin' foned, man! n/t
Message:
nt
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Date: Wed, Mar 14, 2001 at 03:25:00 (GMT)
From: Twiz
Email: twizgarratt@hotmail.com
To: Everyone
Subject: HELP!!!
Message:
I am being chased around my home suburb by the Baptists and other assorted groups who are convinced that something exciting is about to happen.

Should I tell them about the event at Ivorys Rock in April and that the Lord of the Universe will be appearing there???

BTW, does anyone know what time it is???

Twiz.
Ps. The Police are cool but
the polititians just might
be starting to get pissed off!!!

Pps. LUNATICS OF THE WORLD UNITE.!!!

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Date: Wed, Mar 14, 2001 at 03:46:08 (GMT)
From: salam
Email: None
To: Twiz
Subject: Tell them
Message:
to go an fly a kite.
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Date: Wed, Mar 14, 2001 at 16:30:36 (GMT)
From: Postie
Email: None
To: Twiz
Subject: Yeh Twiz, you tell them....
Message:
The Lord of the Universe has come to us this day.
The Lord of the Universe has come to us this day.
And He's come to show us the Light,
And He's come to show us the Love,
And He's come to show us the Waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay,
Back to the Garden........... no wait a 'arf a mo' that's a different song altogether, ain't it?
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Date: Wed, Mar 14, 2001 at 13:51:23 (GMT)
From: Twiz
Email: None
To: salam
Subject: Latest Illusion.
Message:
G'day Salam,

As I type I am in Kings Cross and it is a bit like Disneyland with lots of sex.The whole city seems to be pumping much harder than usual for a Wednesday night and there are film units all over Circular Quay.You really should be here.

Meanwhile, my latest mental spinout is coming to an end but I still manage to work at the job of life for most of the 24 hours of the day. This causes all kinds of mind fucks, but that's life for someone with an alledged mental illness.

Speaking of something completely different,it is interesting to me that very few posters go anywhere near my messages. Is this because I am to hot to handle or don't I warrant a reply? Methinks the forum is not what it pretends to be but that's OK. I have always liked games and this is an amusing one.

Cya. Bongo Oliver Twizt.

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Date: Thurs, Mar 15, 2001 at 01:28:34 (GMT)
From: salam
Email: None
To: Twiz
Subject: Donno about the Cross
Message:
not getting a reply does not mean that your message has not been read. It is only a frame of mind that distinguish one from another. Some people here are too serious doing posting 'work', others don't give a flying monkey about what is happening, yet still there are a lot of lurkers. But in the end it always come down to one thing,

RawatSucks

and Jim thinks he owns the place. But don't let that worry you.

Glad your getting better.

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Date: Wed, Mar 14, 2001 at 01:38:50 (GMT)
From: Brian
Email: brian@ex-premie.org
To: Everyone
Subject: New Journeys entry
Message:
To take the load off the forum software for a minute, you might all consider loading and reading a new entry from Peter. He sent it in a few weeks ago, but I just now got it online.
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Date: Wed, Mar 14, 2001 at 13:16:06 (GMT)
From: Helen
Email: None
To: Brian/Peter
Subject: New Journeys entry
Message:
Peter--
Incredibly lucid and well written. You describe the psychological and physical effects of cults so well. So glad your journey had a happy ending, but it clearly is an example of how long lasting the cognitive, physical, and emotional effects can be. I read somewhere that mental health is accepting all our thoughts. Your quoting the Bible's commandment of Loving God with all your heart AND MIND--reminds me of this. You can't love God or life with your heart and reject your mind--without being cut into pieces. Humpty Dumpty indeed.

Did you make peace with your dad? The image of him crying is a powerful one. What a cruel cult to demand that people reject their loved ones. Take care
Helen

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Date: Wed, Mar 14, 2001 at 06:04:47 (GMT)
From: Disculta
Email: None
To: Brian
Subject: Unbe-f**cking-lievable!
Message:
I've never read an account of a premie who was successfully deprogrammed by Ted Patrick. I knew one who disappeared due to him and was presumably deprogrammed as I never saw him again, but the most famous story was about Jill Katz, a big PAM honcho, who was kidnapped and persuaded them she was convinced, then when they let her walk into the Broadripple Hotel to get her stuff, called security and turned to her mother and said, 'I never want to see you again.'
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Date: Wed, Mar 14, 2001 at 22:04:36 (GMT)
From: Francesca
Email: None
To: Disculta
Subject: Unbe-f**cking-lievable!
Message:
When I lived in Santa Monica, one of the guys in my premie house, Steve, had a girlfriend, Laura, and we were all very involved in the community. One of our roommates was Joan Apter's brother Billy.

Steve's girlfriend Laura was deprogrammed, and I'm almost positive it was Ted Patrick. She ended up becoming romantically involved with her deprogrammer bodyguard, and was never seen in the premie community or by my roomate Steve while I still lived in that house.

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Date: Wed, Mar 14, 2001 at 17:36:05 (GMT)
From: Joe
Email: None
To: Disculta
Subject: Deprogrammings
Message:
A premie I knew, his name was 'Rod' but can't recall the last name, was deprogrammed successfully by Ted Patrick. We were both animal keepers at the San Antonio Zoo and lived at COLL. I talked to him later, and he just seemed kind of 'normal.' I never saw him again.

Alan Mezy, a little guy I lived with in the Chicago ashram was successfully deprogrammed, but I don't think it was by Ted Patrick, although I think it was the same organization. I also never saw him again.

Then there was Maggie Shivers who worked in the legal department at IHQ (originally from DC) who was also successfully deprogrammed and went on to testify before a legislative committee in Maryland about the dangers of cults. She later got a degree from Yale. In her testimony, she decried that many premies were giving their time and money so that Maharaji could have a Boeing 707 complete with a gold toilet. You can still find the article about it on Nexus; it's pretty interesting. I had been hoping to track down Maggie, but I haven't been successful. She has probably gotten married and has a different last name.

Another premie from Chicago, Laura Venema, was also successfully deprogrammed. She had no fear of hanging around premies afterwards, but just seemed immune to premie-persuasion (read 'fear and guilt')

Actually, if you read Ted Patrick's book (don't recall the name) he says that premies were about the easiest cult members to deprogram. I guess the Hare Krishnas were a lot harder. I think the Moonies were pretty easy too, if I recall correctly.

Actually, most of the premies I knew who were deprogrammed, were deprogrammed successfully. Jill Katz is a famous exception, cited repeatedly in satsangs around the world as the actions, love, and focus of a TRUE devotee. (Wonder whatever happened to Jill?)

But I do know of a few cases of people who 'escaped' before they were deprogrammed and were really paranoid of it happening again. There was even a high security section at festivals with people who were considered at risk. I kid you not.

Francesca and Joy: who was the woman in the San Francisco ashram who escaped from deprogramming, and was really paranoid all the time about being kidnapped? I remember one time she freaked at me for leaving open the garage door at the Galewood ashram.

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Date: Thurs, Mar 15, 2001 at 00:15:40 (GMT)
From: la-ex
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: Joe W: about Maggie Shivers deprogramming...
Message:
Joe-

I believe my old friend Hilly, who was deprogrammed by Ted P., became an exit counselor for 10 years, and deprogrammed Maggie.
I think he told me that he said to her: you know m has a half dozen expensive cars around the country, and she said, hell with you, I'm his accountant and he's got 32 of them, if you really want to know!
I think Hilly also worked on Janet from Epo, and a few others for about 10 yrs. in SF.

I have asked him to popst his journey on epo, and possibly answer some questions too.
so far, he has committed to the Journey.

Let you know more as it unfolds,

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Date: Thurs, Mar 15, 2001 at 00:32:50 (GMT)
From: Joe
Email: None
To: la-ex
Subject: Have you seen Maggie
Message:
Since she was deprogrammed?

I knew Maggie both in San Antonio and also at IHQ in Miami. I remember she disappeared at one point, but it wasn't until later when I saw the news articles that I put it all together.

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Date: Wed, Mar 14, 2001 at 22:11:30 (GMT)
From: Francesca
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: Deprogrammings
Message:
She came to the ashram as Jenny West (an assumed name). Her name was actually Beth Gerber. I helped repair her 'fighting sweater' because they roughed her up and tore it when she was trying to escape.

I believe Nancy Silverstein (east bay ashram in the 70s_ also escaped from those goons. She also had some horror stories to tell.

Also Rhonna of the LA Ashram at El Camino not only escaped and showed up at a Kissimmee festival, and also brought a brother from an ashram (Santa Barbara?) who was in the process of being deprogrammed. I believe this was also Ted Patrick's outfit. I heard that when the brother was kidnapped, all they found was a shoe and his vehicle (I believe a moped or scooter or something).

I don't what was worse, the poison or the cure. I sure have no love for Ted Patrick, either. I heard they were rough and violent and had their own fear tactics from those who know. I shudder at the thought of the whole scene.

--f

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Date: Wed, Mar 14, 2001 at 19:17:29 (GMT)
From: Joy
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: Deprogrammings
Message:
Joe, I think her name was Beth Gerber. She was kind of nice. I think her paranoia was possibly because she had been raped, rather than a fear of deprogramming. Understandable. But maybe I shouldn't say that kind of thing on Forum? (according to Postie and others). If so, FA please delete. Like I said, I liked her, even though she was pretty uptight about stuff.
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Date: Wed, Mar 14, 2001 at 19:27:33 (GMT)
From: Joy
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: I Take It Back
Message:
Perhaps raped is not the right word. I do recall it was because she had been 'attacked', which I assumed at the time meant rape. But perhaps it meant attack by the deprogrammers? This kind of thing wasn't exactly talked about much, after all. So perhaps you are right.

I remember thinking how cool it was that this seemingly mindless blissful premie had actually written a book review for the San Francisco Examiner while in the ashram (a novel, I think). So she was definitely a thinking person in spite of it all, and is probably long gone from the cult.

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Date: Wed, Mar 14, 2001 at 20:04:04 (GMT)
From: Joe
Email: None
To: Joy
Subject: I remember now
Message:
Yes, Beth Gerber. From what I recall her telling me, she was afraid because she had been kidnapped and they attempted to deprogram her. I guess she excaped or something, but she was afraid it was going to happen again.

Was there some other 'attack' on her as well? I didn't know that. I tried to respect her fears, but I thought she was kind of overreacting.

By the way, it was only rich people who were deprogrammed, because it cost their parents about $15,000, which back in the 70s was a lot of money.

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Date: Wed, Mar 14, 2001 at 22:19:23 (GMT)
From: Francesca
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: I remember now - she's a good person
Message:
I don't want to sound racist, but it seemed like Jewish premies from wealthy families were especially at risk (though I don't remember if she was Jewish, but Rhonna and Nancy Silverstein definitely were). I don't think Beth's fears were the least bit unreasonable. Since I knew her before the name change, some of our communication was unspoken so that folks wouldn't know her real identity until it became clear whether or not they would come after her.

After what she went through, I don't think her fears were the least bit unfounded. I remember, ironically, that back when I knew her in LA and she was in a pre-ashram house, she was so concerned about her father when he was having health problems. She ran up the phone bill at the house in her concern, calling her father and family quite often. The more devoted amongst the pre-ashram folks thought she was wasting money that should go to the Lard, and frowned on her 'attachment.' I thought it was horribly ironic that her family turned on her like that, but the journey I just read by Peter shows the situation very poignantly from his father's side. The image of his father breaking down in the restaurant really got to me, as I'm sure my parents got close to that but always had trust that somehow they'd still be able to get through to us.

Fond memories of her, she was a real human being.

Love, F

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Date: Wed, Mar 14, 2001 at 22:26:30 (GMT)
From: Joe
Email: None
To: Francesca
Subject: I remember now - she's a good person
Message:
There must have been some point when she dropped the fake name because I remember it was common knowledge that she was Beth Gerber.

I have never been in favor of deprogramming, and one time in an ex-members group that Joy and I went to, some of the other ex-cult members got on my case for saying I was opposed to it. Some of them had been deprogrammed and were very happy they were. I just tend to think that it's better for people to be able to walk away on their own, like I did, and I also saw that if the deprogramming didn't work, then the person went back into the cult even more fervently, more fearfully, etc. And it just isn't okay to kidnap people, no matter what.

Nancy Silverstein. What a trip she was. I have horror stories about her, from several different cities, but that's another story.

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Date: Wed, Mar 14, 2001 at 23:07:49 (GMT)
From: Francesca
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: Deprogramming sux == deprogrammed, please post
Message:
It's just reprogramming with another set of garbage. That's the only trouble with 12 step or any of it. At some point you have to kick off the crutches and walk a few steps.

At least 12-step is voluntary, human and supportive. Deprogramming is scary. You are alone with your kidnappers. Indimidation. Deprivation. Submitting to someone else's will when you get too weak to fight anymore. I agree. Scary, scary, stuff. The ends do not justify the means.

I'd love to know from another deprogrammed premie besides Peter, or more detail from Peter himself, about the process. I'm skeptical that it wasn't just another fear-control trip that made someone capitulate to that trip and then spin off in a manipulated direction. Fighting fire with fire.

I hope that at least Peter found the 'Lord' on his own, and that finding the 'Lord' wasn't part of the reprogramming of the deprogrammers -- i.e. substituting Christianity for Maraj-ism bhakti juju. One Lord for another. What the hell? or what the heaven?

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Date: Wed, Mar 14, 2001 at 23:16:35 (GMT)
From: Joe
Email: None
To: Francesca
Subject: Deprogramming sux == deprogrammed, please post
Message:
I've talked to a few premies and other cult members who were deprogrammed, and they didn't find it scary at all. Well, maybe at first they did, but pretty quickly it became pretty normal. Kind of like counseling. But the involuntary part of it just irks my civil liberties inclinations. It could be subject to so much abuse. So, it can't be allowed, and I think Ted Patrick was convicted and actually went to jail for some of what he did.

I think the reason it seems so scary is that being kidnapped is terrifying, number one, and then, the cult member is completely freaked that what is essential to their life and identities is going to be taken. They frantically try to meditate and all the rest. I think Rod told me he was 'deprogrammed' in about two hours.

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Date: Wed, Mar 14, 2001 at 18:02:24 (GMT)
From: Monmot
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: Deprogrammings
Message:
Joe:

It wasn't Nancy Silverstein (I think that's her last name), was it? I remember hearing about Richard Cooper jumping out of a window from two stories up and breaking his legs in an attempt to escape programming.

My former husband was part of a team set up by WPC/DLm who would go out with a bunch of premie guys and attempt to kidnap back premies who'd been kidnapped by deprogrammers. This would be in the very late 70s, early 80s. Ed Weinberg was kidnapped, then kidnapped back by DLM, but he left anyway.

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Date: Wed, Mar 14, 2001 at 18:31:08 (GMT)
From: Joe
Email: None
To: Monmot
Subject: Deprogrammings
Message:
No, it wasn't Nancy, although she did live in the SF ashram for awhile, and she did sit in the 'security' section at festivals, as I recall. Nancy drove me nuts, but that's another story. There was another woman in the SF ashram who was the victim of a failed deprogramming. I just can't recall her name at the moment.

I think Nancy was kindnapped a couple of times. Randy Prouty told me he was part of a rescue team for her back in the 70s. I remember Randy's opinion was that Nancy enjoyed the attention. :)

Yeah, Coops jumped out of a window and injured his leg in escaping the deprogramming. I think he had a cast or was on crutches for awhile, after that incident.

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Date: Wed, Mar 14, 2001 at 14:51:14 (GMT)
From: Charlie
Email: None
To: Disculta
Subject: Unbe-f**cking-lievable! Isn't it?
Message:
Maybe Peter will look over his shoulder one day soon to see Teddy Patrick and the deprogrammers are back to prize him off the Jesus schtick!
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Date: Wed, Mar 14, 2001 at 13:13:34 (GMT)
From: la-ex
Email: None
To: Disculta
Subject: Disculta-I am inviting one to post here...
Message:
Disculta-

One of my dear friends was a premie during the 70's and he and his girlfriend were successfuly deprogrammed by Ted and the boys.(not TED, just Ted...).

He went on to become an exit counselor for 10 years in the SF area, and is now a successful therapist/social worker.
A wonderful guy, we just me for the first time in over 20 years.
I invited him to post a journey and answer questions.
Hopefully that will be soon.

La-ex

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Date: Wed, Mar 14, 2001 at 23:10:28 (GMT)
From: Francesca
Email: None
To: la-ex
Subject: What is an exit counselor ...
Message:
not familiar with the professional lingo!

Tx --f

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Date: Wed, Mar 14, 2001 at 02:26:43 (GMT)
From: Tonette
Email: None
To: Brian
Subject: Quite a journey nt
Message:
nt
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Date: Wed, Mar 14, 2001 at 02:26:04 (GMT)
From: Pat Conlon
Email: None
To: Brian
Subject: Thank you Brian and Peter
Message:
Thanks Brian for keeping all those elves you've got working behind the scenes so busy. Yeah, right.

Thanks Peter for your beautifully written Journey.

You say in your Journey: I remember hearing stories about GMJ's vast worldly possessions and this caused serious doubts for me.

The answers I received went something to the effect: ''Theses are all gifts from his grateful devotees, and GMJ certainly can't refuse them. Besides, GMJ is not attached to these things. All this is Maya (temporal reality, as opposed to ultimate reality) and GMJ is just showing us how to enjoy worldly things with out attachment.'' I was raised catholic, and that certainly wasn't what Jesus did. It seemed to me that if GMJ were the Perfect Master (one who reveals God) in a direct lineage that includes Jesus, GMJ would live the same way.

I could have written that. It bothered me from the beginning. He preached abstinence, celibacy and surrender but did not practice them. When Ghandi was asked by a mother to tell her son to give up sugar, Ghandi told her to come back next week. The mother asked why. Ghandi replied:''Because by next week I will have given up sugar. I can't tell your son to give up sugar if I have not.''

You said: ...funny that no one ever specifically forbade me to engage in these activities and relationships. Avoiding all outside influences was simply a logical consequence of DML doctrine regarding the mind and the outside world. It is this doctrine that makes DLM such an exploitive and destructive cult.

Again I could have written that. I never joined the ashcans. I was never told to behave in any particular way but the indoctrination then made me feel guilty because I was a ''bad'' premie.

You said:So instead of realizing peace and enlightenment as I was originally promised, I was daily learning a type of mental illness, with exploitation as the ultimate goal.

And one day you realized: This is the old me returning. All this time, there has been some other identity grafted over mine.

Peter, you were lucky you realized it so early on. It took me 28 years and the first time in 28 years, I can say the same thing. I am finding all my old values of neighborly love and respect and forgiveness and common decency and courtesy and trust and honesty all the wonderful things that we take for granted that have descended to us from our Judeo-Christian heritage along with democracy, individual rights, classical music, literature, science and technology.

How could we have not seen that it was Hinduism pure and simple? The same religion that enshrines child-marriage, indentured servitude (slavery) and suttee (widow-burning) and the inhuman apartheid caste system. Mr Rawat was a Hindu and is still now a Hindu - amoral, superstitious, spiritually anachronistic and much given to hyperbole by any name.

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Date: Wed, Mar 14, 2001 at 02:32:43 (GMT)
From: Mercedes
Email: None
To: Brian and Peter
Subject: TThank you Brian and Peter
Message:
Thank you it was inspiring to read the journeyl, yes it took me 26 years to realize I had been indoctrinated, programmed.
I was also 18 when I got knowledge.
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Date: Wed, Mar 14, 2001 at 03:33:22 (GMT)
From: la-ex
Email: None
To: Peter
Subject: Peter-a beautifully written,wonderful journey..nt
Message:
nt
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Date: Tues, Mar 13, 2001 at 23:55:39 (GMT)
From: Dermot
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: After posting around like a blue ass fly
Message:
I will not become addicted to this forum ....I have other things to do ......I will not become addicted to this forum ....I have other things to do.....I will not become addicted to this forum....I have other things to do ..........daisy daisy give me your answer do .....I'm half crazy ...all for the love of you .............it won't be a stylish mmm aaa rriagexzmzmmzmmzmmzmzmzmmmmmmmmzm I wont bec ....I hav otttther
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Date: Wed, Mar 14, 2001 at 00:07:00 (GMT)
From: Pat Conlon
Email: None
To: Dermot
Subject: I thought you were going to say goodbye
Message:
When I realized that I had chronic FVA (Forum Five Addiction) I thought of posting a farewell as have many others. Then I thought I better not because everyone who said goodbye was back five minutes later. Then I did say goodbye seriously and I was back five minutes later.

My name is Thelma and I am an FVoholic.

Have fun, leprechaun.

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Date: Wed, Mar 14, 2001 at 00:33:11 (GMT)
From: moldy warp
Email: None
To: Dermot
Subject: You can't leave
Message:
You are my fellow compatriot from you-know-where. Anyway it's much more entertaining than watching tele - I am totally behind in the plot of my favourite soap opera. In fact I'm thinking of taking up permanent residence in cyberspace as I am loosing use of my legs (but you should see the muscles in my fingers) Love, Moldy xx
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Date: Tues, Mar 13, 2001 at 23:06:25 (GMT)
From: Patrick (formerly Anon)
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: Latvian Night
Message:
I drove up to the Swallow Hotel in Earls Court, London on Saturday evening, to check out this famed Latvian night meeting. I was also keen to meet my old ashram buddy Mike Finch who I hadn’t seen for some years and whom I knew was visiting England currently. JHB and he were the only people I knew from the past that I expected to be there. I was pleasantly surprised to see quite a few other old faces (mainly from the London area) drift in later on in the evening. I don’t want to mention their names because I gather that they were more or less, lurkers on the forum, and so that would obviously be inappropriate. All seemed like fun people.

I had some ‘cellular level’ reservations about going to this ‘event’ but the trepidations soon vanished in the hotel bar after meeting JM, Kelly, Marianne, Bin Liner, Nigel, Tim G, John Brauns, John T, CQ and Mike and his charming ‘live wire’ of a wife! ( I'm sure I've missed some names here)

We soon adjourned to the nearby ‘Standard Indian' restaurant where we were joined by Jethro and his wife, Anth and Dot, goateed dance-music aficionado Hamzen, Charlie and Lee, and a bunch of others. (again I'm surely forgetting some names here-sorry)

Broadly I would say that rather than representing a heinous subterfuge, the assembled were more an innocent bunch of partygoers. I was amused to learn that Mike had apparently been strongly discouraged by some premie(s) from attending. I felt that, in particular, he was possibly demonstrating some considerable courage for even going to this thing, because as a kind of formerly high profile guy he was apparently attracting flak. Who wants do be the subject of disapproval? Anyway it was really nice to touch base with you again Mike.

It was indeed good to get the truer picture of the people whom I had already met through the more one-dimensional medium of this forum. I actually found everyone to be generally very likeable in real life (as much as one can at a party) and even feel that I have made some welcome new acquaintances. It was a pleasant surprise to find that I had quite a bit in common with a number of those present beyond just having been a premie etc. In fact I ended the evening having a rather fruitful discussion about ‘firewalls’ with Charlie. Tim G turns out to be a musician and a delightful chap, so some stuff in common there. Nigel also turns out to be a musician, a man of many talents and quite a character. Anth was suitably extrovert and started reading from ‘And it is Divine’ or some such ancient rag.

I was rather touched by the number of people who commented favourably about my submissions to the forum. It is actually very nice to know that one comes across as sincere etc. at least to some people.

After the meal we drifted back to the hotel and partied in the bar until very late. As I said, a bunch of further people joined us there and a good time was had by all. Finally we retired to Karen and Marianne’s room where John B broke out the Latvian sump oil and attempted to poison us all with this frightful concoction. In the general frivolity, I believe Nigel attempted to lead a refrain of Larkin’s irreverent version of Arti – some photos were taken (none of which I hope will ever be broadcast to the world) and eventually I retired next door to bed.

I shared my room with JM whose quiet ‘Frenchness’ added a cosmopolitan touch to the proceedings. Breakfast the next day was a marginally more sober social meeting over coffees with the remaining people who had stayed overnight. I left feeling that it had been a very innocent and ‘humanising’ gathering, which had well served to complement the forum discussions where we all meet without any real idea of what the people are like with whom we are talking.

If anyone has the inclination to accuse these ex-premie meetings of being anything amounting to the formation of a counter-cult, then I think that they are badly deluded. Happily the occasion was a simple party of people who generally are more interested in getting on with their real lives than obsessing dismally about Maharaji. However there was clearly an atmosphere of unity and understanding with regard to our common objections etc, and therefore quite a lot of sensible discussion and amusing reminiscing going on too.

It occurred to me that there was an element of the ‘school reunion’ or the ‘War-Veterans Association’ about the occasion, where middle-aged people, who had formerly been the subjects of some authoritarian system or had gone through some fairly intense, traumatic things together, rather embarrassedly at first, meet up and celebrate the fact that they are still alive (notwithstanding the predictable discussions about dead premie friends we had) and share a well-earned laugh at the expense of their former slave-drivers.

There was something a bit unsettling at first, about actually going to a meeting of premies where the Master was not going to be a ‘sacrosanct’ subject, in fact the opposite. This was a taboo that it was good to overcome. There were no bolts of lightning striking us down, and the whole thing went very smoothly. (largely thanks to the organisational efforts of dear Karen and the warm and effusive Marianne I think)

Glen made the comparison to me once that he opined that ex-premies were rather like naughty rebellious school kids who stand outside the classroom chucking stones or being disruptive.
I could not help recall my own experiences at public school where we had held revolutionary’ secret meetings’ in study rooms, with the intention of starting some kind of school revolt. We had coined the slogan ‘FFBS' which we chalked up anywhere and everywhere about the school. This meant ‘Fight For a Better School’ !

Our first major success was achieved when we passed around the message that in chapel, at the occasion of the first hymn, the entire school should remain silent –this was an official ‘FFBS’ call to arms.

The stunning response totally surpassed the expectations of even us ringleaders, for, when the organ struck up the intro to the first hymn, all 400 pupils dutifully and defiantly remained perfectly and gloriously mum. The only remaining sound was the out of tune and embarrassed faltering warblings of a very confused and alarmed rank of masters and prefects. Now imagine if that had happened in Arti or something!!

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Date: Wed, Mar 14, 2001 at 20:43:54 (GMT)
From: cq
Email: None
To: Patrick (formerly Anon)
Subject: Latvian Night - don't tell everyone!
Message:
Last year's Latvian night saw 5 people turn up (Anth, Marianne, John Brauns, Jean-Michel and me) and this year saw ... over 20 I think.

If the numbers keep increasing at the same rate, year on year, then next time there'll be over 80 of us, in 2003 there'll be 320 or more, and by the time 2010 comes around the figure comes to .... wait for it, 5242880, and in feet and inches that's 5 million, 242 thousand 8 hundred and 80 - jeez, what statistics can't do eh?

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Date: Wed, Mar 14, 2001 at 22:44:18 (GMT)
From: Kelly
Email: None
To: cq
Subject: Latvian Night - don't tell everyone!
Message:
Hi cq and fellow Latvians, yes I think we should keep it quiet from now on, or the numbers will get out of hand! But wasn't it a wonderful fun night? I really enjoyed meeting all my new friends in the flesh, so to speak, and I was delighted to re-connect with an old friend as well. I also hope the EV spies at the bar enjoyed watching us have fun.

Nigel, you just made a bad choice, the vegetarian thali was delicious, and don't worry about the phone bill...we reversed the charges! And you're wrong, there was one vet there, a French one.

Thanks for the report Patrick, I'm glad someone did it,I've been felling a bit flatvian myself! what was that terrible stuff JHB forced on us? Marianne have you woken up yet? I left her in the room, she may still be there you know.
Anyway, what a lovely bunch of people you are, I look forward to meeting you all again, in one form or another!
Love Kelly (Karen)

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Date: Thurs, Mar 15, 2001 at 17:00:58 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Kelly
Subject: YOU WHAT?????
Message:
Nigel, you just made a bad choice, the vegetarian thali was delicious, and don't worry about the phone bill...we reversed the charges!

Serves me right for taking a call from a bunch of drunks. Well, at least you didn't fall asleep with the phone off the hook.

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Date: Wed, Mar 14, 2001 at 08:42:05 (GMT)
From: Jethro
Email: None
To: Patrick (formerly Anon)
Subject: Latvian Night
Message:
Hi Patrick,

It was a great evening meeting ecveryone in the flesh..
I went away thinking what adiot maharaji is.
He surely had some of the most wonderful people in the world around him and could have done something really positive with it.
But I suppose greed, power and lust are more preferable to him.

Anyway, I propose that all the USA exs pay for all us Brits to come to the next Latvian night(June 2nd??).

All the best

Jethro

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Date: Thurs, Mar 15, 2001 at 03:59:29 (GMT)
From: Robyn
Email: None
To: Jethro
Subject: Latvian Night
Message:
Dear Jethro,
June 2nd is my birthday! :)
Love,
Robyn the Birthday Goddess :)
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Date: Thurs, Mar 15, 2001 at 04:26:30 (GMT)
From: Jethro
Email: None
To: Robyn
Subject: Robyn, aaaaaaaaah a good day
Message:
for birthdays........hmmm maybe see you on June 2nd :>) Jethro
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Date: Wed, Mar 14, 2001 at 13:50:59 (GMT)
From: JohnT
Email: None
To: Jethro
Subject: I second that!
Message:
Jethro: Anyway, I propose that all the USA exs pay for all us Brits to come to the next Latvian night(June 2nd??).

Well, if it includes 'nevers' as well as exs I second it (none of my business otherwise). Thing is, I've got a raincheck for a lunch date in New Jersey from Sandy, and I'd hate to spend my vacation funds on that...

R U an X, yet, shp?

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Date: Tues, Mar 13, 2001 at 23:49:21 (GMT)
From: Bin Liner
Email: None
To: Patrick (formerly Anon)
Subject: Nice take , Patrick...
Message:

....I agree.

I'm just sorry that I had to leave early & so missed out on being able to talk to all those people that I didn't talk to , if you see what I mean .

That chef though , did a magic job on turning a 15 yr old goat into a lamb pasanda....almost.

Thanks to Kelly & Marianne & anyone else who organised it.

& thanks to you for the drink you bought me.

All the Best : Pat D.

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Date: Tues, Mar 13, 2001 at 23:21:04 (GMT)
From: Pat Conlon
Email: None
To: Patrick (formerly Anon)
Subject: Latvian Night - great report from the trenches
Message:
Thanks for your report on the meeting of the Maharaji War-Veterans Association. Hopefully one day we'll have an international Latvian Night.
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Date: Wed, Mar 14, 2001 at 00:05:20 (GMT)
From: Postie
Email: None
To: Patrick
Subject: Thanks - we've been waiting
Message:
Wonderful reporting Patrick.

When FV crashed over the weekend, some of us were frantically emailing each other for a little contact. I liken it to being a psych rat banging away on the lever for more FV pellets. Glad you all had such good fun.

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Date: Wed, Mar 14, 2001 at 01:35:05 (GMT)
From: Nigel
Email: nigel@redcrow.demon.co.uk
To: Postie
Subject: Sack the chef!
Message:
I ordered King Prawns done in a curried something-or-other - the most expensive dish on the menu, just to get some seafood, and they eventually brought me something after everyone else had finished their main course - a sort of lucky dip like they have at school fetes where you dive through the sawdust (in this case rice) for the treasure. Found some shrivelly pink bits which may or may not have once been the arse-end of a real arthropod in a previous lifetime...

You've gotta give the whole picture, eh, Pat?;)

No the night was brill and revelatory in so many ways. Thanks for the report Pat. Thanks for everything, everyone. As far as I'm concerned Latvian night was no vet's reunion. For me it was meeting some lovely people for the first time and mostly hitting it off immediately - and not a guru in sight.

Tim G: I'll get back re. the CD shortly. Kelly: I owe you a fiver, but the phone bill is mostly your responsibilty, I reckon;)

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Date: Wed, Mar 14, 2001 at 05:56:20 (GMT)
From: Disculta
Email: None
To: Nigel
Subject: Sack the chef!
Message:
Well, I was wishing I could be at the British Latvian night, since I was once a British premie, but when I heard about the measly prawns I realized it was divine grace that I am here in the U.S., and will have my Latvian night at Pat Conlon's undoubtedly gourmet South African restaurant.
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