Forum V: Archive
Compiled: Wed, Mar 21, 2001 at 03:56:40 (GMT)
From: Mar 16, 2001 To: Mar 20, 2001 Page: 2 Of: 5


Salam -:- Hey this is great. EV please read. -:- Sun, Mar 18, 2001 at 09:28:47 (GMT)
__ Pat Conlon -:- Hey this is great, Salam. Sounds wonderful -:- Sun, Mar 18, 2001 at 10:08:31 (GMT)
__ Mel Bourne -:- Hey this is great. EV please read. -:- Sun, Mar 18, 2001 at 09:39:00 (GMT)
__ __ G -:- True but... -:- Sun, Mar 18, 2001 at 16:38:43 (GMT)
__ __ __ G -:- 'fertile farmlands' -:- Sun, Mar 18, 2001 at 16:57:23 (GMT)
__ __ AJW -:- Hi Mel. -:- Sun, Mar 18, 2001 at 12:58:14 (GMT)

janet for pat conlon -:- a poll to answer--did you always...? -:- Sun, Mar 18, 2001 at 09:15:01 (GMT)
__ Susan -:- reservations=doubt=mind -:- Sun, Mar 18, 2001 at 18:59:27 (GMT)
__ G -:- yes -:- Sun, Mar 18, 2001 at 16:46:58 (GMT)
__ __ Mercedes -:- exit, relapse and videotapes -:- Sun, Mar 18, 2001 at 17:50:05 (GMT)
__ __ __ Pat Conlon -:- exit, relapse and fear, Mercedes -:- Sun, Mar 18, 2001 at 17:58:14 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Mercedes -:- exit, relapse and fear, Mercedes -:- Sun, Mar 18, 2001 at 18:02:41 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Pat Conlon -:- Hi Mercedes -:- Sun, Mar 18, 2001 at 18:25:14 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Katie Darling -:- Hola Amiga Mercedes -:- Mon, Mar 19, 2001 at 03:22:52 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Pat Conlon -:- Hola, sweetie dahling -:- Mon, Mar 19, 2001 at 04:14:54 (GMT)
__ Thelma -:- a poll to answer--did you always...? -:- Sun, Mar 18, 2001 at 10:12:58 (GMT)
__ __ Pat Conlon -:- Shut up, Bitch, this is serious -:- Sun, Mar 18, 2001 at 10:15:48 (GMT)
__ salam -:- a poll to answer--did you always...? -:- Sun, Mar 18, 2001 at 09:30:27 (GMT)
__ __ janet -:- a poll to answer--did you always...? -:- Sun, Mar 18, 2001 at 11:24:49 (GMT)
__ __ __ G -:- what he said about darshan -:- Sun, Mar 18, 2001 at 16:49:30 (GMT)

Mark -:- Evolution ? - A few suggestions for Captain Queeg -:- Sun, Mar 18, 2001 at 09:04:29 (GMT)
__ Richard -:- Here's M's speech for tonight in Portland -:- Sun, Mar 18, 2001 at 19:05:39 (GMT)
__ __ Joy -:- ** I Nominate This for BEST OF FORUM** -:- Mon, Mar 19, 2001 at 04:47:03 (GMT)
__ __ janet -:- i proofed and edited your speech-take a look: -:- Mon, Mar 19, 2001 at 04:07:56 (GMT)
__ __ __ Jim -:- But isn't that EXACTLY what m did to us? -:- Mon, Mar 19, 2001 at 16:29:48 (GMT)
__ __ __ Richard -:- I'd rather you hadn't janet -:- Mon, Mar 19, 2001 at 04:44:02 (GMT)
__ __ Mark -:- Here's M's speech for tonight in Portland -:- Mon, Mar 19, 2001 at 00:39:26 (GMT)
__ __ __ Richard -:- Mark, thanks bro' -:- Mon, Mar 19, 2001 at 00:45:44 (GMT)
__ __ la-ex -:- Have you seriously thought of sending it to EV?nt -:- Mon, Mar 19, 2001 at 00:15:22 (GMT)
__ __ __ Richard -:- I'm sure EV's already got it via monitors /nt -:- Mon, Mar 19, 2001 at 00:33:17 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ janet -:- in case not, let's all send it to him via -:- Mon, Mar 19, 2001 at 03:00:00 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Pat Conlon -:- Can't be bothered Janet -:- Mon, Mar 19, 2001 at 03:19:20 (GMT)
__ __ JHB -:- Brilliant! -:- Sun, Mar 18, 2001 at 23:14:08 (GMT)
__ __ __ Richard -:- Actually it was very emotional to write -:- Sun, Mar 18, 2001 at 23:36:15 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Connie -:- Know how you feel, big hug -:- Mon, Mar 19, 2001 at 00:21:18 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Pat Conlon -:- Connie, maybe you aren't circumspect but -:- Mon, Mar 19, 2001 at 00:36:53 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Connie -:- Ulysses -:- Mon, Mar 19, 2001 at 00:47:24 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Pat Conlon -:- As long as it isn't that ''song'' M sang -:- Mon, Mar 19, 2001 at 02:13:29 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Pat Conlon -:- I could tell you meant it -:- Sun, Mar 18, 2001 at 23:59:44 (GMT)
__ __ Pat Conlon -:- Richard, that is brilliant and so sad -:- Sun, Mar 18, 2001 at 19:19:17 (GMT)
__ __ __ Mercedes -:- Richard, that is brilliant and so sad -:- Sun, Mar 18, 2001 at 19:43:41 (GMT)
__ __ Dermot -:- what time is it over there ? Still dreaming? nt -:- Sun, Mar 18, 2001 at 19:14:00 (GMT)
__ __ Jim -:- But Maharaji! Before you go -:- Sun, Mar 18, 2001 at 19:12:54 (GMT)
__ __ __ PPSR -:- The stereo's yours Jim - semi arrives Tuesday /nt -:- Sun, Mar 18, 2001 at 19:22:18 (GMT)
__ Pat Conlon -:- one of the mutineers: You said a mouthful, Mark -:- Sun, Mar 18, 2001 at 17:54:50 (GMT)
__ AJW -:- Captain Rawats Luxury Used Car Mart. -:- Sun, Mar 18, 2001 at 14:16:12 (GMT)
__ __ Pat Conlon -:- Captain Rawat evolves into Bill Gates' butler -:- Sun, Mar 18, 2001 at 18:00:51 (GMT)
__ Connie -:- Mark, great, post, thanks nt -:- Sun, Mar 18, 2001 at 09:33:32 (GMT)

Salam -:- What is the best way to travel? -:- Sun, Mar 18, 2001 at 09:00:48 (GMT)

Erika -:- Sorry Joe, major disagreement here -:- Sun, Mar 18, 2001 at 08:38:36 (GMT)
__ Joe -:- So, now that that's cleared up -:- Mon, Mar 19, 2001 at 02:03:22 (GMT)
__ Lesley -:- We were all premies once, Erika -:- Sun, Mar 18, 2001 at 21:32:19 (GMT)
__ __ Joe -:- Lesley and Erika, thanks and isn't it interesting? -:- Mon, Mar 19, 2001 at 02:19:48 (GMT)
__ __ __ Pat Conlon -:- Joe, it was all the mahatmas' fault -:- Mon, Mar 19, 2001 at 02:49:19 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Joe -:- grumpy? -:- Mon, Mar 19, 2001 at 02:59:27 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Pat Conlon -:- grumpy? It must have been a typo Joe NT -:- Mon, Mar 19, 2001 at 03:16:33 (GMT)
__ __ __ Jim -:- Joe, don't be so stubborn. It's disrespectful -:- Mon, Mar 19, 2001 at 02:30:44 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Joe -:- And to be stubbornly disrespectful is bad too. -:- Mon, Mar 19, 2001 at 02:50:02 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Pat Conlon -:- Erika left Joe. She just said goodbye -:- Mon, Mar 19, 2001 at 03:21:35 (GMT)
__ __ Erika -:- We were all premies once, Erika -:- Sun, Mar 18, 2001 at 22:02:40 (GMT)
__ __ __ Joe -:- Hey, Foul!!! -:- Mon, Mar 19, 2001 at 01:56:56 (GMT)
__ __ __ Katie H. -:- Double Standard -:- Sun, Mar 18, 2001 at 23:19:21 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Erika -:- Double Standard -:- Sun, Mar 18, 2001 at 23:47:35 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Katie H. -:- I did - thanks -:- Sun, Mar 18, 2001 at 23:51:28 (GMT)
__ __ Pat Conlon -:- Lesley: Joe is grumpy and utterly good hearted. -:- Sun, Mar 18, 2001 at 21:37:28 (GMT)
__ Joe -:- Erika, you have amnesia -:- Sun, Mar 18, 2001 at 20:54:02 (GMT)
__ __ Erika -:- Joe, my deepest apologies -:- Sun, Mar 18, 2001 at 23:18:26 (GMT)
__ __ __ Joe -:- Erika, more amnesia/things I regret -:- Mon, Mar 19, 2001 at 01:38:53 (GMT)
__ __ __ JHB -:- A Serious Response -:- Sun, Mar 18, 2001 at 23:30:55 (GMT)
__ __ Jim -:- Frankly, I wouldn't want to wake up to this post -:- Sun, Mar 18, 2001 at 22:38:44 (GMT)
__ Jim -:- Joe was all that? OUR Joe? Sheesh! -:- Sun, Mar 18, 2001 at 19:39:20 (GMT)
__ Francesca -:- Re Joe then, later and today -:- Sun, Mar 18, 2001 at 19:31:44 (GMT)
__ __ Pat Conlon -:- Re Joe then, later and today -:- Sun, Mar 18, 2001 at 19:38:45 (GMT)
__ __ __ Katie H. -:- Joe is one of my heroes -:- Sun, Mar 18, 2001 at 20:41:32 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Joe -:- Thanks, guys -:- Mon, Mar 19, 2001 at 02:14:12 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Pat Conlon -:- Hi Joe and Kevin -:- Mon, Mar 19, 2001 at 02:25:02 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Katie -:- I'm glad you weren't offended -:- Mon, Mar 19, 2001 at 02:22:02 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Joe -:- No, I was flattered. -:- Mon, Mar 19, 2001 at 03:39:34 (GMT)
__ Katie H. -:- Erika, I disagree with you re Joe -:- Sun, Mar 18, 2001 at 19:09:28 (GMT)
__ __ Monmot -:- Important Point -:- Sun, Mar 18, 2001 at 21:09:55 (GMT)
__ __ __ Katie H. -:- Thanks, Monmot -:- Sun, Mar 18, 2001 at 23:33:40 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Monmot -:- I've got one too -:- Mon, Mar 19, 2001 at 01:23:33 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Katie H. -:- I've got a LOT of those! -:- Mon, Mar 19, 2001 at 01:27:55 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Jim -:- FA! KATIE'S THREATENING MIDGE AGAIN!! -:- Sun, Mar 18, 2001 at 23:50:25 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Katie H. -:- Whaddya mean you haven't 'seen' it? -:- Mon, Mar 19, 2001 at 00:02:10 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Jim -:- Middle age testosterone drop off? -:- Mon, Mar 19, 2001 at 00:16:43 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ such -:- nice, fresh approach/no reproach: squashes Roach! -:- Mon, Mar 19, 2001 at 09:07:22 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Katie -:- We can only hope :) -:- Mon, Mar 19, 2001 at 01:02:17 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Jim -:- We can only hope :) -:- Mon, Mar 19, 2001 at 01:09:48 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Katie -:- Watch it pal -:- Mon, Mar 19, 2001 at 01:18:55 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Jim -:- Oops! Above post missing safety emoticon! (nt) -:- Mon, Mar 19, 2001 at 01:11:21 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Pat Conlon -:- Jim is no longer the lone mad prophet -:- Mon, Mar 19, 2001 at 00:42:08 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Forum Admin -:- Jim - Stop Crying Wolf -:- Mon, Mar 19, 2001 at 00:00:23 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Jim -:- FA! I THINK THIS FA'S THREATENING ME! -:- Mon, Mar 19, 2001 at 00:13:10 (GMT)
__ Connie -:- If I may interupt -:- Sun, Mar 18, 2001 at 09:26:08 (GMT)
__ __ Pat Conlon -:- If I may interupt, Connie -:- Sun, Mar 18, 2001 at 10:22:27 (GMT)
__ __ __ Connie -:- Yes Pat, but cult think is subtle nt -:- Sun, Mar 18, 2001 at 10:35:28 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Pat Conlon -:- Tell me about it, sis, but not as subtle as -:- Sun, Mar 18, 2001 at 10:43:55 (GMT)

salam -:- Re: Amaroo -:- Sun, Mar 18, 2001 at 08:11:03 (GMT)
__ salam -:- OK, who is the smart cookie that can explain this -:- Sun, Mar 18, 2001 at 09:13:16 (GMT)
__ __ G -:- Info on these companies -:- Sun, Mar 18, 2001 at 15:56:29 (GMT)
__ __ kev -:- Will the real Elan Vital please stand up nt -:- Sun, Mar 18, 2001 at 12:57:21 (GMT)

La-ex -:- Michael Donner-Thanks,plus comments...... -:- Sun, Mar 18, 2001 at 05:28:34 (GMT)
__ Francesca -:- Dennis Murphy could be ... -:- Mon, Mar 19, 2001 at 05:00:12 (GMT)
__ donner -:- Michael Donner-Thanks,plus comments...... -:- Mon, Mar 19, 2001 at 02:45:54 (GMT)
__ Dermot -:- X-rated? ...where'd this designation come from? -:- Sun, Mar 18, 2001 at 21:15:38 (GMT)
__ Brian Smith -:- Michael Donner-Thanks,plus comments......'Ditto' -:- Sun, Mar 18, 2001 at 08:20:54 (GMT)
__ __ Richard -:- Brian - I'm with you brother -:- Sun, Mar 18, 2001 at 21:17:25 (GMT)
__ __ Katie H. -:- Bravo, Brian! Great Post! -:- Sun, Mar 18, 2001 at 19:20:39 (GMT)

Jim :) -:- Where IS OP anyway? -:- Sun, Mar 18, 2001 at 04:22:23 (GMT)
__ AJW -:- WYSIWYG -:- Sun, Mar 18, 2001 at 23:24:19 (GMT)
__ Katie H -:- OP has a husband and kids -:- Sun, Mar 18, 2001 at 05:22:29 (GMT)
__ Roger eDrek -:- Jim, about your emoticon (OT) -:- Sun, Mar 18, 2001 at 04:29:00 (GMT)
__ __ Jim ;) -:- Don't confuse my smile for weakness! -:- Sun, Mar 18, 2001 at 04:38:44 (GMT)
__ __ __ your friend janet -:- you really fear looking weak, don't you? -:- Sun, Mar 18, 2001 at 06:26:31 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Jim -:- Don't emoticoms show up on web TV, Janet? (nt -:- Sun, Mar 18, 2001 at 06:32:28 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ your friend janet -:- truth in jest my brother... -:- Sun, Mar 18, 2001 at 06:52:13 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Pat Conlon -:- Janet in re the Emotikon formerly known as Jim -:- Sun, Mar 18, 2001 at 08:33:03 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ janet -:- he's become a cartoon of himself, hasn't he? nt -:- Sun, Mar 18, 2001 at 08:35:25 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Pat formerly Thelma -:- Haven't we all? It's called middle-age (nt) -:- Sun, Mar 18, 2001 at 10:24:32 (GMT)
__ __ __ Jim -:- Latvian Night at my house in one hour! -:- Sun, Mar 18, 2001 at 05:12:58 (GMT)

Kerde Regor -:- My big story: Bill Gates is the Anti-Christ and... -:- Sun, Mar 18, 2001 at 00:22:48 (GMT)
__ Katie H. -:- Regor/Roger, you know I love you, BUT... -:- Sun, Mar 18, 2001 at 19:26:41 (GMT)
__ __ Roger eDrek -:- Yes, it's a very weak link -:- Sun, Mar 18, 2001 at 19:42:57 (GMT)
__ __ __ Katie H. -:- Yes, it's a very weak link -:- Sun, Mar 18, 2001 at 20:01:00 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Roger eDrek -:- Yeah, I wish... -:- Sun, Mar 18, 2001 at 20:20:24 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Katie -:- We'll protect you, Rog -:- Sun, Mar 18, 2001 at 20:31:10 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Katie -:- Or I'm sure the FA would delete if you asked -:- Mon, Mar 19, 2001 at 01:39:52 (GMT)
__ Bin Liner -:- Hope you got Nolfet Underpants Kerde.... -:- Sun, Mar 18, 2001 at 02:26:55 (GMT)
__ lekraF DET -:- You been round these parts before,Kerde? nt -:- Sun, Mar 18, 2001 at 01:41:05 (GMT)
__ __ Kerde Regor -:- Yes, Le Kraf. Are you French by chance? -:- Sun, Mar 18, 2001 at 01:46:39 (GMT)
__ __ __ Tomred -:- You can run -:- Sun, Mar 18, 2001 at 01:56:56 (GMT)
__ __ Tomred -:- visixvi....visixvi.....visixvi.....visixvi (nt) -:- Sun, Mar 18, 2001 at 01:44:33 (GMT)
__ Tomred -:- You weren't supposed to go public on this..... -:- Sun, Mar 18, 2001 at 01:20:30 (GMT)
__ __ Kerde Regor -:- CTRL-ALT-Delete, CTRL-ALT-Delete, CTRL-A... -:- Sun, Mar 18, 2001 at 01:32:38 (GMT)
__ __ __ Tomred -:- The answer's in your hand and forehead (nt) -:- Sun, Mar 18, 2001 at 01:37:50 (GMT)
__ Roger eDrek -:- That's amazing, Kerde. Thanks for telling us. -:- Sun, Mar 18, 2001 at 01:07:30 (GMT)
__ __ Thyms H J Ver -:- That's amazing, Kerde. Thanks for telling us. -:- Sun, Mar 18, 2001 at 02:37:20 (GMT)
__ __ __ Roger eDrek -:- Thy scripture hath been made whole now -:- Sun, Mar 18, 2001 at 04:04:33 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ janet -:- camarillo-where the state prison and nuthouse is?? -:- Sun, Mar 18, 2001 at 06:36:15 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Roger eDrek -:- Janet, please don't tell anyone -:- Sun, Mar 18, 2001 at 19:44:15 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ janet -:- microsoft owns webtv -:- Mon, Mar 19, 2001 at 05:03:04 (GMT)
__ __ __ Rev John Hammond-Smyth -:- PS - thanks dear brethren -:- Sun, Mar 18, 2001 at 03:14:50 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Suchabanana -:- Yes,Tis most blessed to give,rather than recede(mt -:- Mon, Mar 19, 2001 at 09:29:55 (GMT)

Jim -:- Threads moving so fast, I'm gettind dizzy -:- Sat, Mar 17, 2001 at 23:18:11 (GMT)
__ Forum Admin -:- So are we.... -:- Sat, Mar 17, 2001 at 23:31:27 (GMT)
__ __ Jim :) -:- Thanks (??) -:- Sat, Mar 17, 2001 at 23:33:43 (GMT)
__ __ __ bill--most threads should -:- wait while the big hitters are here....nt -:- Sun, Mar 18, 2001 at 06:46:13 (GMT)
__ Roger eDrek -:- Just wait for my blockbuster about Patty -:- Sat, Mar 17, 2001 at 23:24:26 (GMT)

Katie H. -:- Susan's post to Erica from inactive -:- Sat, Mar 17, 2001 at 21:27:02 (GMT)
__ Erika -:- Susan's post to Erika from inactive -:- Sun, Mar 18, 2001 at 02:11:21 (GMT)
__ __ Francesca -:- Gotta comment here -:- Sun, Mar 18, 2001 at 19:09:20 (GMT)
__ __ Jim :( -:- Susan's post to Erika from inactive -:- Sun, Mar 18, 2001 at 03:51:31 (GMT)
__ __ __ Erika -:- Susan's post to Erika from inactive -:- Sun, Mar 18, 2001 at 04:47:23 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Jim ;/ -:- Okay ...... then how about this? -:- Sun, Mar 18, 2001 at 05:01:22 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Erika -:- Okay ...... then how about this? -:- Sun, Mar 18, 2001 at 05:15:48 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Jim ;/ -:- How 'bout someone else then? -:- Sun, Mar 18, 2001 at 05:32:31 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Erika -:- How 'bout someone else then? -:- Sun, Mar 18, 2001 at 06:47:50 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Jim -:- I GIVE UP!!! -:- Sun, Mar 18, 2001 at 06:51:29 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Pat Conlon -:- I GIVE UP TOO. Another koan from zen master -:- Sun, Mar 18, 2001 at 10:32:27 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ JHB -:- I GIVE UP TOO. Another koan from zen master -:- Sun, Mar 18, 2001 at 12:45:34 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Pat Conlon -:- Thanks John for explaining koan from zen master NT -:- Sun, Mar 18, 2001 at 18:03:09 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Dermot -:- Spill the beans then John... -:- Sun, Mar 18, 2001 at 14:37:08 (GMT)
__ __ Brian -:- Basing your life on your own beliefs -:- Sun, Mar 18, 2001 at 03:20:33 (GMT)
__ __ __ Erika -:- Basing your life on your own beliefs -:- Sun, Mar 18, 2001 at 04:40:48 (GMT)
__ __ Katie H. -:- Hi Erika -:- Sun, Mar 18, 2001 at 03:17:25 (GMT)
__ __ __ Erika -:- Hi Erika -:- Sun, Mar 18, 2001 at 04:49:55 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Katie Darling (was Baier) -:- Hi Erika -:- Sun, Mar 18, 2001 at 06:38:37 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Wonderful Man -:- Hi Erika -:- Sun, Mar 18, 2001 at 20:48:30 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Katie Darling -:- Hi Erika -:- Mon, Mar 19, 2001 at 11:31:16 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Erika -:- Hi Erika -:- Sun, Mar 18, 2001 at 07:59:02 (GMT)
__ __ Bin Liner -:- When did you stop being a devotee ... -:- Sun, Mar 18, 2001 at 03:09:35 (GMT)
__ __ __ Erika -:- When did you stop being a devotee ... -:- Sun, Mar 18, 2001 at 04:56:10 (GMT)
__ __ Susan -:- how I see it -:- Sun, Mar 18, 2001 at 03:03:58 (GMT)
__ __ __ Erika -:- how I see it -:- Sun, Mar 18, 2001 at 05:03:12 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Katie H. -:- The 'teacher' analogy -:- Sun, Mar 18, 2001 at 19:56:49 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Pat Conlon -:- The 'teacher' analogy -:- Sun, Mar 18, 2001 at 20:33:38 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Susan -:- deal breakers -:- Sun, Mar 18, 2001 at 15:05:48 (GMT)
__ Francesca -:- Bravo again Susan! n/t -:- Sat, Mar 17, 2001 at 21:35:34 (GMT)
__ __ Joe -:- I also wanted to say that post was great (nt) -:- Sat, Mar 17, 2001 at 22:12:39 (GMT)
__ __ __ Richard -:- Me as well, Susan -:- Sat, Mar 17, 2001 at 22:18:12 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Moldy Warp -:- Bravo from me too nt -:- Sun, Mar 18, 2001 at 02:09:09 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Susan -:- thanks to all who posted nice notes to me -:- Sun, Mar 18, 2001 at 18:54:40 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Jim -:- Yes, but watch out for ego (nt) -:- Sun, Mar 18, 2001 at 19:45:02 (GMT)


Date: Sun, Mar 18, 2001 at 09:28:47 (GMT)
From: Salam
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: Hey this is great. EV please read.
Message:
Haven't spammed the forum for a while. So shoot me, if you you don't like it.

EV, please correct typing mistake

Geologists believe Australia is the oldest continent on Earth. Its red soil, green mountains and turquoise lagoons are home to the koala, the kookaburra and the kangaroo. Long hours of sunshine bathe its tropical rain forests, fertile farmlands and woodlands covered with eucalyptus trees. Australia beckons people to live life outdoors.

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Date: Sun, Mar 18, 2001 at 10:08:31 (GMT)
From: Pat Conlon
Email: None
To: Salam
Subject: Hey this is great, Salam. Sounds wonderful
Message:
I hope you enjoy it and are happy there.
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Date: Sun, Mar 18, 2001 at 09:39:00 (GMT)
From: Mel Bourne
Email: None
To: Salam
Subject: Hey this is great. EV please read.
Message:
Salam of the 'English as a second language'

Please check your dictionary!

Mel

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Date: Sun, Mar 18, 2001 at 16:38:43 (GMT)
From: G
Email: None
To: Mel Bourne
Subject: True but...
Message:
Let's take a look at this again:

'Geologists believe Australia is the oldest continent on Earth. Its red soil, green mountains and turquoise lagoons are home to the koala, the kookaburra and the kangaroo. Long hours of sunshine bathe its tropical rain forests, fertile farmlands and woodlands covered with eucalyptus trees. Australia beckons people to live life outdoors.'

Shouldn't they be saying something like 'Long hours of scorching tropical sun radiation wlll bear down upon you at Amaroo, so make sure you use SPF 36 sunscreen.'? Why this euphemism? Isn't Rawat concerned about people getting skin cancer?
Since when do koalas, kookaburras and kangaroos live in red soil, green mountains, and turquoise lagoons. I've never heard of a kangaroo living in a lagoon or a kookaburra burrowing underground. Before the wording was '... lagoons spawned the koala ...'. Pretty stupid, eh?
And as Nigel pointed out, lands already covered with trees (woodlands) are not yet again covered with trees.
Continents don't beckon people to live outdoors. That's just manipulative wording. I would translate it to 'Feel good about paying hundreds of dollars for staying in a lousy campground located on a former cow pasture with lots of flies.' Amaroo is not a all the idyllic land they portray it to be.
Let's face it, their use of the English language sucks and stinks.

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Date: Sun, Mar 18, 2001 at 16:57:23 (GMT)
From: G
Email: None
To: Mel
Subject: 'fertile farmlands'
Message:
I forgot, 'fertile farmlands' is a euphemism for 'Amaroo is located on a former cow pasture, there is a lot of cow dung in the soil, the flies love its fertileness.'
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Date: Sun, Mar 18, 2001 at 12:58:14 (GMT)
From: AJW
Email: None
To: Mel Bourne
Subject: Hi Mel.
Message:
Hi Mel,

Howya doin' down there?

How are things hanging with you and Captain Rawat these days?

Is the ice melting yet?

Anth, aboute to tayke a showere.

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Date: Sun, Mar 18, 2001 at 09:15:01 (GMT)
From: janet for pat conlon
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: a poll to answer--did you always...?
Message:
from below, brought up here to respond to:

asked by pat conlon of all posters:
'Maybe we should do a poll: Did all exes have reservations about Rawat from the beginning?
And conversely: Did all lifers always see no wrong in him?
It would be interesting to see the results.'

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Date: Sun, Mar 18, 2001 at 18:59:27 (GMT)
From: Susan
Email: None
To: janet for pat conlon
Subject: reservations=doubt=mind
Message:
I had reservations from the beginning. But I also bought the trip about Mr. Mind. and doubts. So my doubts were 'explained' and predictable and to be fought. In fact, the way the mind trip worked is was almost as if your doubts confirmed what the Guru and his minions were saying, that your mind would try to talk you out of it....leave no room for doubt in your mind. I think it was one of his biggest traps.

I do not recall who it was who said it so eloquently, Francesca?, that she finally realized those doubts, and what she was labeling mind, was her true self trying to speak.

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Date: Sun, Mar 18, 2001 at 16:46:58 (GMT)
From: G
Email: None
To: janet for pat conlon
Subject: yes
Message:
My instinct/gut feeling/intuition about him was that he was a con man. I wish I had listened.

I think deep down all 'lifers' have doubts about him. I would say that the majority of 'active PWKs' have at some point 'left' Rawat but later relapsed. There's a tremendous amount of doubt that they are not expressing. It's repressed.

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Date: Sun, Mar 18, 2001 at 17:50:05 (GMT)
From: Mercedes
Email: None
To: G
Subject: exit, relapse and videotapes
Message:
Hi, I have to admit that I had no doubts at all for years, then I got married my hubby at the time confronted me so I left the cult then when we got divorce of course I relapsed. It took me 5 more years to start having doubts. What helped me was my inner resolution to get my life together and thinking will my friends now be interested in something like this?
This guy prays on people's vulnerabilities, he is a con of the worst kind and a vicious perpetrator who will use and abuse anything to get what he wants.
I guess this is enough for now.
Mercedes
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Date: Sun, Mar 18, 2001 at 17:58:14 (GMT)
From: Pat Conlon
Email: None
To: Mercedes
Subject: exit, relapse and fear, Mercedes
Message:
I hope you will shake off your fears soon and step out into the light and tell Rev Rawat to go take a hike. The really is nothing to fear anymore. He is a boring, sleazy, two-bit, greedy little preacher of a lousy, sneaky boring little church.
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Date: Sun, Mar 18, 2001 at 18:02:41 (GMT)
From: Mercedes
Email: None
To: Pat Conlon
Subject: exit, relapse and fear, Mercedes
Message:
Okay, yes I am getting there, at least I am OUT.
Love...
Mercedes
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Date: Sun, Mar 18, 2001 at 18:25:14 (GMT)
From: Pat Conlon
Email: None
To: Mercedes
Subject: Hi Mercedes
Message:
And the further OUT you get the more it starts to look like a silly boring religion and nothing to fear at all. Good luck.
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Date: Mon, Mar 19, 2001 at 03:22:52 (GMT)
From: Katie Darling
Email: None
To: Pat Conlon
Subject: Hola Amiga Mercedes
Message:
It's really true that the further out you get, the more ridiculous it seems that this guy seemed to hold some power inside you.

And further out used to mean longer time, but now, with the aid of the fabulous forum, outing is faster.

Carino xx

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Date: Mon, Mar 19, 2001 at 04:14:54 (GMT)
From: Pat Conlon
Email: None
To: Katie Darling
Subject: Hola, sweetie dahling
Message:
And the outness has a domino effect, frees others of fear etc. The truth will indeed set one free and get you high too.
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Date: Sun, Mar 18, 2001 at 10:12:58 (GMT)
From: Thelma
Email: None
To: janet for pat conlon
Subject: a poll to answer--did you always...?
Message:
Well, I was on my way to the opera at Covent Garden when someone told me that the Lord of the Universe was going to a rock concert in Glastonbury. So, yes I had tremendous reservations about someone who would show such poor taste and exhibit such self-promotionalism as to attend a rock concert, for god's sake of all things. Now if he had come to see ''Cosi fan Tutti'' with me it might have been a different story.
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Date: Sun, Mar 18, 2001 at 10:15:48 (GMT)
From: Pat Conlon
Email: None
To: Thelma
Subject: Shut up, Bitch, this is serious
Message:
Seriously? Yes. But I was a desperate burnt out hippi Hindu acid freak in need of help - any help. Did I get it? No. God helps those who help themselves.
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Date: Sun, Mar 18, 2001 at 09:30:27 (GMT)
From: salam
Email: None
To: janet for pat conlon
Subject: a poll to answer--did you always...?
Message:
so what did you think janet?
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Date: Sun, Mar 18, 2001 at 11:24:49 (GMT)
From: janet
Email: None
To: salam
Subject: a poll to answer--did you always...?
Message:
i believed in him all out right up until i read this site.
the only answer i have for what happened in darshan and the K session is that musta been me doing it.cause he's an asshole.
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Date: Sun, Mar 18, 2001 at 16:49:30 (GMT)
From: G
Email: None
To: janet
Subject: what he said about darshan
Message:
In the 1980's Rawat said at a program in England:

'Darshan worked because you thought it would work.'

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Date: Sun, Mar 18, 2001 at 09:04:29 (GMT)
From: Mark
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: Evolution ? - A few suggestions for Captain Queeg
Message:
Evolution -Would that be Maharaji beginning the PORTLAND satsang (company of Truth) with, ' Hello, my name is Prem Pal Singh Rawat , and I am an Alchoholic . or 'I am Prem Puff Rawat, and I am a Stoner '

Or maybe start out with the Ghandi story with the kid,his mom and the sugar ( the one where Ghandi tells the kid to come back in two weeks, after Ghandi stops with sugar ...you know,THAT one)and explaining the story, say he must tell the premies the truth, that he's fucked up , he's been living a dual life since the Bloody day he got off the FUCKING PLANE in 1971 ! - but he WILL get it together in time for Amaroo.

Or asking if there is anyone there in the audience that feels pure and lined up with their Source, in service to their Source, enough to speak from the place where we are all ONE - to please take the chair(or the talking stick) and let it rip. And get up from his chair/throne.

Cause he KNOWS in his heart of hearts that he is a sick puppy,and shouldn't be sitting there ( Come to the Master : Drinking daily since 1971.1000 years of Peace ? 1000 Proof.)

Cause if anything has gotten lost in the equation here it is: that DIVINITY has been reduced for the 3-4% of diehard followers to a few entry level meditation techniques and Captain Rawat - talk about something VERY VERY IMPORTANT getting lost in translation. Sothat people think a shot of meditation (with or without cognac) is the EVOLUTION of the GOAL OF HUMAN POSSIBILITY.

The Absolutes offered at the beginning of all this -to us the Western pure audience - Our own expansion to Christ Consciousness -being a real 20th order of the Brotherhood of Light, world peace,Service to Humanity,with God's Rep in charge
became relative disconnected subject to the whims of the Town Drunk.(Sampuranand buys Cognac by the case from Trader Joe's)
THE FINAL EVOLUTION
And get his self down from his throne of avarice and deceit,and KISS EVERYONE else's feet in attendance and then ALL sit quietly in meditation together( believe it or not energetically, that might be the quickest healing for all involved ! )thanking all for putting up with his shit.

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Date: Sun, Mar 18, 2001 at 19:05:39 (GMT)
From: Richard
Email: None
To: Mark
Subject: Here's M's speech for tonight in Portland
Message:
Great thoughts, Mark. I love the talking stick and reverse darshan.

In the same vein, I woke up today imagining the 'perfect event' with M so I'll add it to your thread. Here's what I would like M to say tonight in Portland.

Wild appluase....................................

Thank you, thank you for that warm and enthusiastic welcome. I want to take a moment to thank all of you who have contributed so much to making this event unfold so wonderfully. (read off list of names of Portland team) It has always been the energiesof people like you that these events have ever happened. Thank you Erika for that beautiful music we've all listening to, you are truly talented. That letter you wrote to me has had an unexpected impact on me.

I want you to know how much I appreciate all of you coming here on such short notice to hear me speak. It means so much to me that you are interested in my philosophy. I am truly touched and thank you from my heart. But this will be the final gathering like this ever.

As you can see, I've done away with the stage and chair. It just isn't right anymore for me to sit so far above you all. It is I who should sit below you. As a dear former premie, Sir David Simpkiss, has said 'I walk amongst saints'. Sir Dave, you are so right and I was so wrong. And you are all truly saints to have put up with my arrogance and tirades for so many long years and all the while never losing the revolutionary zeal you brought to the party.

Over the years, many of you have contributed your time, your love, your careers, your families, your money and your lives so that myself and my family could live a life of luxury. Today that all changes. I have instructed my former loyal council Michael Dettmers to liquidate all of my resources and set up a trust fund to be used however you all see fit. The Malibu house will be turned over to the foundation to be used as a counselling and retreat center for those to who I've caused damage. I have begged Michael Donner to organize all of the past instructors as counsellors for this center if they are interested. The house, by the way is a remarkable achievement by so many dedicated crafts people and I want to personally thank them now (read list of those who built house).

I will be returning to India to live in a small house near the Ganges. There I plan to spend my time following the path my father gave to me. For once, I'm going to practice the knowledge that he showed me. In time I hope to reconcile with my brothers and beg their forgiveness for violating the trust they placed in me. And once I get out of substance abuse recovery, I will put my flight training to good use by volunteering with Doctors Without Borders, transporting people in need of medical treatment. Perhaps on trips back to the US I'll get to visit Marolyn and my children if they will allow it.

In the big-ning, when I first came to London, I was so full of inspiration and possibility. Many of you greeted me there with so much love and dedication and I want you to know I truly appreciated that. I was too young though and not disciplined and frankly, I squandered that love and dedication. And I betrayed the mandate my father gave me to bring peace to the world. I know I promised you the moon and when I realized it was not possible, I could not face telling you the truth, until now. I took the coward's path and found solice in alcohol abuse at first, then material possessions and women. Today, I stand before you and say I am an alcoholic, a rageaholic and I am addicted to having power over others because I am myself powerless. I am getting treatment for these faults and I hope you can forgive me. Many never will and I will live with that. But truly, I am sorry.

So now, I will stand here and if you have anything you would like to say to me, please do. Thank you.


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Date: Mon, Mar 19, 2001 at 04:47:03 (GMT)
From: Joy
Email: None
To: Richard
Subject: ** I Nominate This for BEST OF FORUM**
Message:
This is too good to let slip into obscurity. Can it be retained somewhere?

It is so SAD that Maharaji will NEVER say any of this. He will never get real. But who knows, miracles can happen!?

And if and when he does, here's a script he can start from.

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Date: Mon, Mar 19, 2001 at 04:07:56 (GMT)
From: janet
Email: None
To: Richard
Subject: i proofed and edited your speech-take a look:
Message:
Here's M's speech for tonight in Portland: 

Wild applause....................................
Thank you, thank you, for that warm and enthusiastic welcome.

I want to take a moment to thank all of you who have contributed so much to making this event unfold so wonderfully. (reads off list of names of Portland team) It has always been because of the energies of people like you, that these events have ever happened.

Thank you, Erika, for that beautiful music we're all listening to, You are truly talented. That letter you wrote to me has had an unexpected impact on me.

I want you all to know, how much I appreciate all of you coming here, on such short notice, to hear me speak. It means so much to me, that you are interested in my philosophy. I am truly touched, and I thank you all, from my heart.

But this will be the final gathering we hold, like this, ever. I have come to a lifechanging realization, about myself, and about all of you.

As you can see, I've done away with the stage and chair. It just isn't right anymore for me to put myself so far above you all. In fact, I feel now that it is I who should sit below you. As a dear former premie in the UK, Sir David Simpkiss, has said 'I walked amongst saints, and did not recognize it'.

Sir Dave, you are so right, and I have been so wrong. You all truly have been saints, to put up with my arrogance and tirades, for all these many long years,---- and all the while, you never lost the revolutionary zeal you brought to the party. I misused you and abused you and still you stayed for me.

Over the years, many of you have given up comfort, incomes, homes, your time, your love, your careers, your families, your money and your lives, so that I and my family could live a life of luxury. Today that all changes.

I have requested my former friend, and honest counsellor, Michael Dettmers, to come back and oversee the liquidation of all of my resources. My net worth is then to be set up a trust fund, to be used however you all see fit.

The Malibu house will be turned over to the Foundation, to be used as a counselling center and a retreat, for those to whom I've caused so much damage. Every one of you will be welcome there, when ever you need help.
I have begged Michael Donner whether he would kindly consider a request to return for a time, and organize all of the past instructors, as counsellors for this center,-- but only if they are interested.
But frankly, after the way i treated them, I would understand it if they did not want to return to anything involving me.

The house, by the way is a remarkable achievement-- by so many dedicated crafts people, and I wanted to personally thank them now, if you will permit me to read this list of those who built my house?
[reads off entire list with personal comments of true appreciation]

Once I vacate the malibu house and see that all the residences around the world, as well as the lands, are liquidated into the Trust, there will be another change:

I will be returning to India to live in a small house near the Ganges. There I plan to spend the rest of my life truly following the path my father gave to me, as he followed it himself. For once, I'm going to practice the Knowledge that he showed me. In time I hope to reconcile with my brothers and earn back their forgiveness, for the way I violated the trust they placed in me. As for my mother, Mata Ji...well, i guess it is too late to be able to make amends to her in this world. She was right about what i did, and I disappointed all her hopes in me as her youngest son. I know what i did, and it ends here.

some of you may know this; some of you may not. But it is time I came clean to you all:
My name is Prem Pal, and I am an alcoholic. I have been an alcoholic since I came to the West. Many concerned premies have tried to bring this to my attention, going all the way back to Bob Mischler.

Michael Dettmers and later, Michael Donner, each in their time, confronted me with my behavior and their difficulty with working for me, if i continued in it. I did not listen. Each of them resigned from their post--rather clearly i might add--directly due to it. And still i continued to drink, daily. I planned my schedule around my drinking. I never went a day without it.
In my alcoholism, I terrorized my children, my wife, my staff, and entire gatherings of all of you, at festivals. That was not me you were seeing. That was a monster. You have never known me as I really am--and never have I.

For this reason and many others, I am checking myself into a rehab program, where i will withdraw from the years of alcohol and drugs I have been using since i was a young teenager. I intend to find out who I am, when there is nothing left but me.

You gave me your trust and i returned it with pain. I owe you all, so deeply. I have so many amends to make. I am sure it will take me the rest of my life to do so...

And once I get out of the substance abuse facility and I am living my life in sobriety and Recovery, I think I will put my flight training to good use, perhaps by volunteering with Doctors Without Borders. I could enjoy helping transport people in need of medical treatment around the world.

Perhaps on trips back to the US, I'll get to visit Marolyn and my children, if they will allow me to see them, after all I've put them through. The children are all grown up now...It's time they went out into the world and found out what they can do with the unique talents they have. Not healthy for them to live isolated away from the rest of the world. I kept Wadi from college, and that was a mistake on my part. I intend to 'butt out' of her life decisions and trust her judgement of what's right for herself. And I mean that wih all my kids.

I was pushed into a career that was decided for me, you might say...and we all now how that turned out. I don't even know what I could have been!
I guess it's time to find out, huh?

You know....
In the big-inning, when I first came to London, I was so full of inspiration and possibility. Many of you greeted me there with so much love and dedication, and I want you to know, I truly appreciated that. I was too young to know what to do with it, though, and I was not disciplined enough and frankly, I feel I have squandered your love and dedication.

And I feel I have betrayed the mandate my father gave me-- to bring peace to the world. I know, I promised you the moon... and when I realized it was not possible, I could not face telling you the truth, until now.

I took the coward's path. I sought escape and solace in alcohol, at first, and then in material possessions, and then in other women. None of it worked, not really. And you guys paid for it all.

Today, I will stand before you and confess that I am an alcoholic, a rageaholic and I am addicted to having power over others. I realize now that I have done this because I am, in myself, powerless over these things. I am going into treatment for these faults, and I hope you can forgive me.

Many never will and I will live with that. But truly, I am sorry.
And I am grateful to you all. You made it all possible for me to make this journey. By myself, I couldn't have done any of it.
But found out what kind of person I am when I am given unlimited horizons, and I became a monster--to myself, and to you.
Please--don't ever let me do that to you again!

So now, I will stand here and the ushers will circulate wireless mikes, and if you have anything you would like to say to me, or ask me, please do. Unlike in the past, I will stay and respond to you for as long as you need me to.

Thank you.
--------------------------------------------

i just sent it off to maharaji dot org. now for ev and VI etc.

what are the adresses to send it to?

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Date: Mon, Mar 19, 2001 at 16:29:48 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: janet
Subject: But isn't that EXACTLY what m did to us?
Message:
Just kidding. This one has to go down in the 'no harm, no foul' category.
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Date: Mon, Mar 19, 2001 at 04:44:02 (GMT)
From: Richard
Email: None
To: janet
Subject: I'd rather you hadn't janet
Message:
I would have preferred it if you had written your own and left mine as I wrote it.

Richard

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Date: Mon, Mar 19, 2001 at 00:39:26 (GMT)
From: Mark
Email: None
To: Richard
Subject: Here's M's speech for tonight in Portland
Message:
Richard:

Funny my server crashed after my post until a 1/2 hr. ago. What a wonderful surprize to see your heartfelt speech. It might (oh me ever the idealist) be the text for THE final speech. I hope he doesn't just take the money and run,i.e, does give the power back.

I Remember you, and your office on Biscayne and the 30's.You are a graphic artist.That was a very graphic speech. Sweet and elegant. You got it perfectly. Glad you are helping the last Japanese soldiers know that the war is over and threy lost the war.

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Date: Mon, Mar 19, 2001 at 00:45:44 (GMT)
From: Richard
Email: None
To: Mark
Subject: Mark, thanks bro'
Message:
Of course your take on the 'Last Waltz' is precisely as I remember you. Outrageous, irreverant, cosmic, psychedelic and mirthful with a top note of indignant anger. That's amazing you recall all that about me. Did you ever come to that office building in Miami?

The Richard formerly known as Postie

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Date: Mon, Mar 19, 2001 at 00:15:22 (GMT)
From: la-ex
Email: None
To: Richard
Subject: Have you seriously thought of sending it to EV?nt
Message:
nt
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Date: Mon, Mar 19, 2001 at 00:33:17 (GMT)
From: Richard
Email: None
To: la-ex
Subject: I'm sure EV's already got it via monitors /nt
Message:
nnnnnn
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Date: Mon, Mar 19, 2001 at 03:00:00 (GMT)
From: janet
Email: None
To: Richard and all
Subject: in case not, let's all send it to him via
Message:
maharaji@maharaji.org

and at elan vital, and at visions, and at enjoyinglife and at life's afoot and any other vehicle where premies go on the net or work on the net.
send it from your personal email, not just send the forum page.

i will. who's with me??

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Date: Mon, Mar 19, 2001 at 03:19:20 (GMT)
From: Pat Conlon
Email: None
To: janet
Subject: Can't be bothered Janet
Message:
Can't take the little Hindu seriously enough anymore to waste my time WRITING to him. Better things to do.
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Date: Sun, Mar 18, 2001 at 23:14:08 (GMT)
From: JHB
Email: None
To: Richard
Subject: Brilliant!
Message:
This is the most moving spoof post I've ever read here. Wouldn't it be awesome if it turned out to be prophetic?

Thanks Richard.

John.

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Date: Sun, Mar 18, 2001 at 23:36:15 (GMT)
From: Richard
Email: None
To: JHB
Subject: Actually it was very emotional to write
Message:
and I meant it seriously.
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Date: Mon, Mar 19, 2001 at 00:21:18 (GMT)
From: Connie
Email: None
To: Richard
Subject: Know how you feel, big hug
Message:
Reminds me of the tale of Ulysses and the sirens.

Take care

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Date: Mon, Mar 19, 2001 at 00:36:53 (GMT)
From: Pat Conlon
Email: None
To: Connie
Subject: Connie, maybe you aren't circumspect but
Message:
rather cryptic. Well, at least I didn't understand that literary allusion. And don't rub my nose in it about calling you circumspect. It was way inaccurate.
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Date: Mon, Mar 19, 2001 at 00:47:24 (GMT)
From: Connie
Email: None
To: Pat Conlon
Subject: Ulysses
Message:
was afraid of being seduced by the sirens on the rocks.

The sirens' job was to lure men to their death. None could resist it.

The journey Ulysses had undertaken, meant the ship had to pass by way of the sirens.

Knowing he couldn't resist, he came up with a plan - to be tied to the flagpost.

When he sailed past the rocks, he heard the siren's singing, and started screaming and struggling to go to them, such was the power of the call.

That is how I feel, I know the call of k so well, and I can't say it's song still does not call to me.

This is how I read Richard's post.

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Date: Mon, Mar 19, 2001 at 02:13:29 (GMT)
From: Pat Conlon
Email: None
To: Connie
Subject: As long as it isn't that ''song'' M sang
Message:
at Hans Jayanti 1999. Talk about tone deaf. That had to be a big drip for an opera lover like me. Yuk.
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Date: Sun, Mar 18, 2001 at 23:59:44 (GMT)
From: Pat Conlon
Email: None
To: Richard
Subject: I could tell you meant it
Message:
I've thought of doing one myself but you did it perfectly.

When the student has to tell the master how to behave then the student is the master.

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Date: Sun, Mar 18, 2001 at 19:19:17 (GMT)
From: Pat Conlon
Email: None
To: Richard
Subject: Richard, that is brilliant and so sad
Message:
because it won't happen and even if it did it would be 20 years too late.
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Date: Sun, Mar 18, 2001 at 19:43:41 (GMT)
From: Mercedes
Email: None
To: Pat Conlon, Richard
Subject: Richard, that is brilliant and so sad
Message:
I agree with both of you. You know making amends as some people call them comes after working really hard and honestly with yourself, our former 'teacher' is no where near being honest.
Good speach though.
See you soon...
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Date: Sun, Mar 18, 2001 at 19:14:00 (GMT)
From: Dermot
Email: None
To: Richard
Subject: what time is it over there ? Still dreaming? nt
Message:
zzzzzz
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Date: Sun, Mar 18, 2001 at 19:12:54 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Richard
Subject: But Maharaji! Before you go
Message:
can I have your stereo? I mean, if you're not going to be using it or anything?

Good one, Richard!

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Date: Sun, Mar 18, 2001 at 19:22:18 (GMT)
From: PPSR
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: The stereo's yours Jim - semi arrives Tuesday /nt
Message:
nt
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Date: Sun, Mar 18, 2001 at 17:54:50 (GMT)
From: Pat Conlon
Email: None
To: Mark
Subject: one of the mutineers: You said a mouthful, Mark
Message:
Captain Queeg Singh Rawat evolved all the way from Lord of the Universe to another cheap tacky televangelist.
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Date: Sun, Mar 18, 2001 at 14:16:12 (GMT)
From: AJW
Email: None
To: Mark
Subject: Captain Rawats Luxury Used Car Mart.
Message:
Hi Mark,

I enjoyed reading your post. Thanks.

I think the Lord of the Universe is going to end up the part-owner of 'Captain Rawat's Luxury Used Car Mart', on the Pacific Coast highway.

He'll be living with his girlfriend, who will be the only premie who still loves him, but even she will get tired of him, and boss him around.

He'll avoid ex-premies and not know how to deal with them. He'll be shy and withdrawn. Unfortunately the Carmart won't earn enough to keep the therapy sessions up.

But somedays, he'll walk on the beach, look out to sea, and remember when he used to be the person who created it all.

(Violins playing 'Twameva' quietly in the background.)

If only it hadn't been for the bloody Internet, he could have been a contender, up there with Jesus, Krishna and Buddha.

Anth the impartial oracle.

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Date: Sun, Mar 18, 2001 at 18:00:51 (GMT)
From: Pat Conlon
Email: None
To: AJW
Subject: Captain Rawat evolves into Bill Gates' butler
Message:
specializing in brown-nosing and doing nude dances in his mala.
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Date: Sun, Mar 18, 2001 at 09:33:32 (GMT)
From: Connie
Email: None
To: Mark
Subject: Mark, great, post, thanks nt
Message:
llllll
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Date: Sun, Mar 18, 2001 at 09:00:48 (GMT)
From: Salam
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: What is the best way to travel?
Message:
Choose this

Or

This

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Date: Sun, Mar 18, 2001 at 08:38:36 (GMT)
From: Erika
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: Sorry Joe, major disagreement here
Message:
Joe,

Francesca just explained to me about the inactive index, and I wanted to pull your post up, becasue I disagree with it so strongly.

JOE:
Look, Erika. All the time I was a premie, I never heard anyone state this opinion, although since I have been on this Forum, I have heard one other premie give a similar explanation. Plus, it's completely out of context with the way we lived, about agya, about the rules, about what being a premie was all about.

[Sorry, Joe, but this is how I interpreted it. I remember you as being extraordinarily rule-bound and zealous as a premie, and you may very well have taken that commandment in the way you say, but I understood it differently. It's clear to me, that the inside of every person's head is a completely unique place.]

JOE:
If that's what you really believed, if you were an ashram premie and you thought, 'gee, I wonder if I should have sex?' Under the logic of your interpretation, you should just go right out and see 'if that's true for you.' And you know how out of the question that would have been.

[I sometimes felt attracted to people, or thought about not keeping my commitment to the ashram code in other ways - as I'm sure most ashram premies did - and my response to myself was 'no, I don't feel that's the right thing for me to do. I made a commitment to this way of life, and it's important to me.' It's the same internal process I go through now when I feel momentarily like doing something I decide that I don't want to do. Again, you may have spoken to yourself very differerntly about all this stuff than I did. I imagine you did.]

JOE:
No, that's crap. The commandment couldn't have been more clear, and you have to do revisionist back flips to get to the way you interpret it. It clearly was 'dont' doubt.' It was the definition of a cult. It was the written manifestation of a closed system, in which you couldn't examine what was happening to you, because to do so was to doubt, and we had a commandment from the living incarnation of God not to do that.

[Sorry again Joe, this is just not how I'm wired. Wasn't then, am not now. If it was so clearly 'don't doubt' then why didn't it just say 'don't doubt'? To me 'never leave room for doubt in your mind,' clearly meant REMOVE doubt. And the only way I've ever known how to do that is through 1) clear thinking and 2) having a deep internal experience to refer to.]

JOE:
It was nuts, but it was how we lived. And to tell you the truth, Erika, I don't recall you saying anything different when I knew you, and if you did, it would have been heresy. In fact, I seem to recall you really poo-pooing doubts I had about doing propagation in San Antonio, as 'having my own ideas' which I wasn't supposed to have. That was one of the things we kind of fought about, if I remember correctly.

[Joe, you and I have very different memories about this. I don't recall doing propagation at COLL at all. If you recall, it was 76, and we were completely internally involved in 'revising' our weird hindi stuff and making enough money to support ourselves. I recall your and my difficulties as being around my feeling that you were disrespectful to people, stubborn and inflexible. Sorry, to be so blunt, but that's what I remember...and why I haven't really responded at length to most of your posts. It seemed to me you would be as unwilling to listen to anyone disagreeing with your new beliefs as you were with your old ones.]

Erika

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Date: Mon, Mar 19, 2001 at 02:03:22 (GMT)
From: Joe
Email: None
To: Erika
Subject: So, now that that's cleared up
Message:
Are you going to respond to those posts, or just ignore them?
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Date: Sun, Mar 18, 2001 at 21:32:19 (GMT)
From: Lesley
Email: None
To: Erika
Subject: We were all premies once, Erika
Message:
Trying to make sense of the senseless. Frankly, from the way you have written here, I think you deserve to stay a pwickie. I am only writing this post because I am so annoyed at your attitude to Joe, someone I have never met, other than on this forum, but for whom I have the highest regard, to me he sounds grumpy and utterly good hearted. How about you hold onto your bile for a while until you can find the right place to spit it.
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Date: Mon, Mar 19, 2001 at 02:19:48 (GMT)
From: Joe
Email: None
To: Lesley
Subject: Lesley and Erika, thanks and isn't it interesting?
Message:
Thanks much Lesley. I'd like to meet you sometime. Isn't it interesting that Erika can't remember she was in charge of propogation, but remembers this:

I recall your and my difficulties as being around my feeling that you were disrespectful to people, stubborn and inflexible.

Yeah, memory is a funny thing. Isn't it interesting that it was all my fault, whatever it was?

Hey, Erika, if you are still reading, when was I 'disrespectful' to people, and when was I 'stubborn and inflexible?' This might help me process all this, so it might be helpful, seeing that I, like Maharaji, am always interested in evolving. And god knows I need it.

If you like, I could probably remember stuff that would help you, too.

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Date: Mon, Mar 19, 2001 at 02:49:19 (GMT)
From: Pat Conlon
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: Joe, it was all the mahatmas' fault
Message:
They made you grumpy. They invented Hinduism. They started the ashcans. They drove Rawat to drink.
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Date: Mon, Mar 19, 2001 at 02:59:27 (GMT)
From: Joe
Email: None
To: Pat Conlon
Subject: grumpy?
Message:
Did Lesley say 'grumpy?' Okay, maybe some mornings before coffee, maybe even one time 2 days without a bowel movement, but 'grumpy?' First time I have been called one of the Seven Dwarfs.
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Date: Mon, Mar 19, 2001 at 03:16:33 (GMT)
From: Pat Conlon
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: grumpy? It must have been a typo Joe NT
Message:
m
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Date: Mon, Mar 19, 2001 at 02:30:44 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: Joe, don't be so stubborn. It's disrespectful
Message:
Joe,

Like you, I, too, have a lot to learn about getting along with people. But I AM learning, Joe. You can too.

Jim
A Friend in Need

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Date: Mon, Mar 19, 2001 at 02:50:02 (GMT)
From: Joe
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: And to be stubbornly disrespectful is bad too.
Message:
Jim,

We don't LEARN, we EVOLVE. See, if you EVOLVE, you GROW, and you don't have to explain anything you did before you evolved. It's so cool.

Joe
In the Evolvement Aspirant Program
Erika Andersen, Coordinator

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Date: Mon, Mar 19, 2001 at 03:21:35 (GMT)
From: Pat Conlon
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: Erika left Joe. She just said goodbye
Message:
up above.
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Date: Sun, Mar 18, 2001 at 22:02:40 (GMT)
From: Erika
Email: None
To: Lesley
Subject: We were all premies once, Erika
Message:
Lesley,

It seems ironic to me that you would take me to task for disagreeing strongly with Joe. He has said far stronger and more intense things to me over the past week, and has called into question my sanity, honesty and intention.

I know I didn't pull my punches, but I certainly wouldn't categorize my response as 'bile.' It seems as though there's a double standard at work here.

Respectfully,
Erika

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Date: Mon, Mar 19, 2001 at 01:56:56 (GMT)
From: Joe
Email: None
To: Erika
Subject: Hey, Foul!!!
Message:
It seems ironic to me that you would take me to task for disagreeing strongly with Joe. He has said far stronger and more intense things to me over the past week, and has called into question my sanity, honesty and intention.

Absolute bullshit, Erika, maybe you are questioning those things, but I did not question them. I take you at face value, and I take what you say as your honest opinion, even if I disagree with it. When did I question any of those? I have questioned your memory, though, correctly it appears. You really gotta cut this out, Erika, or you are going to lose your 'BEST' designation before the plaque is even finshed.

And by the way, as the object of your post, I don't take it as 'bile.' But I would appreciate it if you would characterize accurately what actually has been said.

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Date: Sun, Mar 18, 2001 at 23:19:21 (GMT)
From: Katie H.
Email: None
To: Erika
Subject: Double Standard
Message:
Hi Erika -
There IS a double standard at work here, because Joe is known and liked by most people on this forum and most of us do not know you at all. I wouldn't characterize your remarks about Joe as 'bile', but they did bother me, as they didn't seem to fit the Joe I know. I would hope that you would give him some credit for changing since you knew him. Maybe the two of you still won't get along - but who knows?

Monmot made a great post below which basically said that an important part of this forum involves working out former feelings of resentment for things that happened when we were all premies together. It's well worth reading.

Take care,
Katie

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Date: Sun, Mar 18, 2001 at 23:47:35 (GMT)
From: Erika
Email: None
To: Katie H.
Subject: Double Standard
Message:
Katie H,

Please read my post below, wherein I entertainingly fall all over myself apologizing to Joe for my misunderstanding and outdated thinking about him...

Erika

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Date: Sun, Mar 18, 2001 at 23:51:28 (GMT)
From: Katie H.
Email: None
To: Erika
Subject: I did - thanks
Message:
We were probably posting at about the same time, so what I had to say above ended up being redundant. I did like your post to Joe.
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Date: Sun, Mar 18, 2001 at 21:37:28 (GMT)
From: Pat Conlon
Email: None
To: Lesley
Subject: Lesley: Joe is grumpy and utterly good hearted.
Message:
Typo? I love it.
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Date: Sun, Mar 18, 2001 at 20:54:02 (GMT)
From: Joe
Email: None
To: Erika
Subject: Erika, you have amnesia
Message:
Erika,

Just some clarification here, perhaps to jog your memory:

Joe, you and I have very different memories about this. I don't recall doing propagation at COLL at all. If you recall, it was 76, and we were completely internally involved in 'revising' our weird hindi stuff and making enough money to support ourselves.

You were IN CHARGE of propagation activities at COLL, Erika, I'm just amazed you forgot that, but it was a long time ago, so I take you are your word that you don't remember. Let me refresh your memory, and I'm sure others that were there will remember. But I have to say, that you have forgotten this, I wonder how much you actually recall of what you thought and believed back then.

Around 1975 or early 1976, 'Denver' came down with a new edict on the 'proper way of doing propagation.' It was right after Maharaji said that 'the suit had to fit' when someone arrived. Anyway, the propagation crap was really lame, apparently thought up by someone with an education degree. You know, there were these 'stages' people went through, blah, blah. YOU put ME in charge of the 'Introductory Program' phase of all that. And we had a few disagreements. Marc Lerner was coordinator at COLL at the time, although Steve Droullard might have been coordinator for part of that time. I am cursed with a good memory, always have been. True, by mid-1976, the whole thing fell apart, but I was gone in July, 1976, so I wasn't around for the folding of COLL.

Let me remind you further with a particular incident. A guy I worked with at the ZOO, Lanny Bates, a black guy, was an aspirant through part of this period. He's the guy Padarthanand rejected (you and I were both sitting in the room) on apparent racist reasons. Lannie admitted in the knowledge selection that he had smoked dope in the previous months. And he was rejected for knowledge. Then Padarthanad proceeded to say (to YOU as coordinator of propagation, and me) that black people were 'like people from Tahiti' were lazy and into sensual gratification. I'm surprised you don't remember that, you and I were both quite upset about it at the time. This event completely challenged my belief system about what Maharaji was all about. I've always wondered whatever happened to Lannie.

One of the things we disagreed about what this 'survey' about 'meditation' that, as part of the 'propagation' activities, premies went out and pretended to be doing this survey in the hopes of opening up a discussion that would lead to dragging them in for an intro program. A lot of the premies told me that they felt it was extremely dishonest, and I agreed. So, we argued about that, and that's when you told me that I 'had a lot of my own ideas.' Don't recall you telling me to just trust my own 'truth.'

In fact, what I recall was that the enitre melieu was that we were to 'surrender' our individual thoughts and opinions, and practice SS&M, and not only never doubt, but actually try to meditate 24/7.

Sure, I think I did take it all very literally, as I've already said, although, as I also said, I never heard anyone else, particularly Maharaji, ever say you could just interpret it all as your own 'truth.' I accept the 'take it literally' charge, but I reject the 'rigid' charge. I don't think was that was true at all. God, there were lots of people more 'rigid' than me, to the extent I was.

Erika, I'll not try to categorize you from what I recall a long time ago, as I think's that's very unfair, but you seem willing to do so, unfortunately. But let's just stick to the issues, shall we? I'm sure you aren't the same person you were then, and neither am I.

I have to say, however, that I find your interpretation of the never leave room for doubt commandment unique. As I said, maybe you had it, I just don't recall either you or anyone else stating that opinion, certainly not Maharaji, and it's only now, years later, when there is a motivation to rationalize something so stultifying to personal growth, that those interpretations seem to come out. But others can say what they thought. I can just tell you what I thought and heard.

Joe

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Date: Sun, Mar 18, 2001 at 23:18:26 (GMT)
From: Erika
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: Joe, my deepest apologies
Message:
Joe,

I'm very sorry. When you said 'doing propagation' I made an assumption that you meant going out and hitting the streets with big M buttons, as in the early 70s.

You're absolutely right that I was the 'aspirant coordinator' at COLL for a while. My memory of this isn't as clear as yours, though I do remember disagreeing with you about a variety of things. And, now that you've jogged my memory so embarassingly and effectively, I also remember the survey -- which I also remember thinking was a great idea if done right and not pushy or weird, just to find a way to connect with people who might be interested in hearing about K. I wouldn't think it was a good idea today, and in retrospect, I can see why you and others found it questionable. Since I'm also a very opinionated and strong-willed person, (and my memory of you is that you were the same) I can imagine myself telling you that you were being too opinionated (my code for -- hey, you should agree with me about this!)

I had completely forgotten about the Padarthanand incident. I liked Lanny Bates a lot, and now I remember being appalled at Padarthanand's thinly veiled racism. Thank you for reminding me.

Some of the other posts in this thread have helped me see that I was holding you hostage to a twenty-five year old view of you, and I also apologize for that.

I think a lot of what I was reacting to in your earlier post was the sense you portrayed of COLL as being this gestapo-like environment, when my memories were so different. I remember Marc Lerner's beautiful Passover seder, and strolling on the River Walk at dusk to go to the disco place, and eating dinner with Steve Droullard and the boys at Mi Tierra and all agreeing not to investigate the refritos too closely. I remember Pat Murphy's endearing, quirky way of dancing, at our post-satsang shindigs, and that odd German guy who did night security...I used to wander down late at night and practice my bad German on him. I remember arguing endlessly with Steve Droullard that the business model for the car wash was stupid, because our prices were so low that our profit margins sucked. And Pat's flute business in the back of the car wash. I remember the heated debates between the macrobiotics and the junk food junkies, and how amazing it was when Burke and Gail Frank's baby was born. I remember my room mate Nina and her little boy Skye. I also remember going down to meditate in the morning, in that cool, dim hall. And the strains of Arti on somebody's guitar (I'm still fond of the tune, though the words are bizarre). I remember being 23 years old, and thinking I had all the answers. Given that we were all so young and self-righteous, it's astonshing that it worked on any level. I had a great time, for the most part, and loved being there.

I'm doing my best to listen to the real issues here that are most toubling to me -- about M's faling to take responsibility for many mistakes and changes that have happened, and about his problem drinking and sexual irresponsibility. I'm also trying to take in as valid people's pain around these and other issues.

It gets frustrating when people refuse to accept as valid the pleasure and fun and joy I've experienced all through this journey -- both internally and with other people, including M -- and discount it as 'cult' behavior, brainwashing, etc.

Again, sorry for misinterpreting you, and for being closed in my thinking about you.

Erika

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Date: Mon, Mar 19, 2001 at 01:38:53 (GMT)
From: Joe
Email: None
To: Erika
Subject: Erika, more amnesia/things I regret
Message:
Erika,

God girl, you are all over the place. Where did you get this?

I think a lot of what I was reacting to in your earlier post was the sense you portrayed of COLL as being this gestapo-like environment, when my memories were so different.

When did I say this? Actually, my memories of COLL are the best of the entire time I was in the cult. Who ever said it was a 'gestapo-like' enivironment? It certainly wasn't me. Erika, this is right up there with your other straw man postion that anyone has said that being a premie was a 'fear based experience for everyone.' That is also something I have heard no one say, except you, in arguing against it. Erika, cut that out, okay? It's bad for your credibility.

Like you, I have regrets for some of the things I did in the cult. Not at COLL, however. There, I just tried to do what Maharaji said we should do, and COLL was great because it lacked much of a hierarchy. People who came from 'Devner' even inititors, even Raja Ji, found they didn't get automatic respect at COLL. You kind of had to be a real person first. I think this was due to COLL being isolated from the rest of the cult, because Maharaji never paid any attention to it, because it started on its own, without any direction from anyone. And I never saw any other place like that in the cult, especially the closer it was to Maharaji physically. In fact, it went quickly in the oppposite direction the closer you got to him.

There are three things I regret that I did to others in the cult, that I have apologized to people for.

One was that, based on friendship and family, and that people trusted me, I got people to receive knowledge and enter the cult. In a couple of cases, particularly with my brother and his wife, this had very negative consequences. Fortunatly, all the people I got involved left the cult quite a while before I did. My brother died of cancer in 1996, but I got to apologize for all the cult-crap and what pain that caused him, and he forgave me, so that was great.

The second thing I did that I regret is that I followed orders to get up in front of the community in Miami and DC, and told them they should donate as much cash as possible, in one of those emergence fundraisers, because Maharaji really had to have this BOEING 707 plane, and I followed orders and even suggested that people max out their credit cards and take out loans to do so. I know people with kids and other responsibilities, who saw me as some kind of an agent for Maharaji, did just those things, to the detriment of themselves and their families, and I actually saw that be true for them. I really regret that, and by the time I got to San Francisco, I was just physically incapable of asking for money for yet ANOTHER plane, or other ridiculous new thing Maharaji wanted.

The third thing was the way I hurt my family, but that's a long story.

That's about it, all the other damage was to me personally, as far as I can tell.

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Date: Sun, Mar 18, 2001 at 23:30:55 (GMT)
From: JHB
Email: None
To: Erika
Subject: A Serious Response
Message:
Erika,

Your reminiscence is moving, but we could all do this. All of us had good times, but all neverbeenpremies also have lots of good times. What evidence do you have that ours were deeper? Neverbeenpremies didn't have a forum like satsang or even this forum for telling people how good they felt. Maybe our good times meant more to us because we felt we were involved in something special, but honestly the fact that we had lots of good times is irrelevant here.

What is relevant is 'Who is Guru Maharaj Ji?', and how accountable should he be for the things he has said, the things he has done, the power he has wielded, and his silence of these issues today?

John.

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Date: Sun, Mar 18, 2001 at 22:38:44 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: Frankly, I wouldn't want to wake up to this post
Message:
Erika, I have to say I feel for you. If Joe's right, girl, you don't remember dick. And that, I'm sure, must be embarrassing.

Erika, if you need someone to talk to or anything, I'm here.

Easy now, Joe.

Jim
The Premie's Friend

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Date: Sun, Mar 18, 2001 at 19:39:20 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Erika
Subject: Joe was all that? OUR Joe? Sheesh!
Message:
Thanks for the heads up, Erika. I always knew he could be a bit, oh, what's the word? Hm, not sure exactly. But this from you is a real eye opener! God, I can see why you'd have such a hard time talking with him if he was really inflexible and stubborn.

And yeah, I get your point. Being a premie, especially an ashram premie, was all about flexibility. In fact, that's what the ashram rules were all about, weren't they? Flexibility, openness, learning to do things your way and for your purposes? Sometimes when my ashram co-ordinators used to get on my case a bit, asking me to do service, or, more accurately, what they called service, I'd just pause and give my head a shake. Like, what the fu ..? Who'd they think they were, anyway? Maharaji's trip, and the ashram in particular, were all about doint it my way. Some of these assholes never really got that, did they, Erika? Well, all I can say is that I'm sure glad you're posting. Better late, than never.

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Date: Sun, Mar 18, 2001 at 19:31:44 (GMT)
From: Francesca
Email: None
To: Erika
Subject: Re Joe then, later and today
Message:
Erika:

It is funny but I lived in the ashram in SF at the same time as two posters on this site, Joe Whalen and Joy Jaber. I knew them at the end of their DLM/EV careers. I guess they were sort of being put out to pasture. Joy's work at SHIP and wherever else was over and she was told to go out and get a regular ol' job, and Joe was leaving the hotbed of Miami and wherever else to be community coordinator of SF, where M hardly ever came/comes.

By the time I knew Joe, he was an extremely reasonable person, not dogmatic, not inflexible, etc. Because I knew him at that phase of the game, I can honestly say that even in 1981-82, the attitudes you many have come in contact with had considerably softened. I didn't get any of that from him at all. I think in trying to be M's foot soldiers, some of us definitely did things we might have done in boot camp.

So you might want to give him a listen, although it does seem like there is a little bad blood between you. Perhaps you can work some of it out over time.

--f

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Date: Sun, Mar 18, 2001 at 19:38:45 (GMT)
From: Pat Conlon
Email: None
To: Francesca
Subject: Re Joe then, later and today
Message:
Exactly, Francesca. Joe was like a breath of fresh air after a series of pompous and humorless automoton CCs.
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Date: Sun, Mar 18, 2001 at 20:41:32 (GMT)
From: Katie H.
Email: None
To: Pat Conlon
Subject: Joe is one of my heroes
Message:
In fact, don't tell him this, but the 'coffee klatsch' (Jim's former name for the women of the forum) has often referred to him in private as 'Joe What-A-Waste'.

(Sorry, Joe - it is true, though!)

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Date: Mon, Mar 19, 2001 at 02:14:12 (GMT)
From: Joe
Email: None
To: Katie H., Pat Francesca,
Subject: Thanks, guys
Message:
Kevin had a good laugh about that one. He is threatening to come on the forum and say just how wasted I really can be sometimes. Thanks, friend. You are a sweetheart, and Frannie and Pat are sweethearts, too.
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Date: Mon, Mar 19, 2001 at 02:25:02 (GMT)
From: Pat Conlon
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: Hi Joe and Kevin
Message:
Kevin give Joe a big wet one from me. He's sooo prim and proper.
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Date: Mon, Mar 19, 2001 at 02:22:02 (GMT)
From: Katie
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: I'm glad you weren't offended
Message:
And since you are a former Catholic, I hope you got the reference :).

Love ya -
Katie

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Date: Mon, Mar 19, 2001 at 03:39:34 (GMT)
From: Joe
Email: None
To: Katie
Subject: No, I was flattered.
Message:
And I know the Catholic Church reference. In fact, I've probably thought it myself, but not in the FRONT of my consciousness. ::))
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Date: Sun, Mar 18, 2001 at 19:09:28 (GMT)
From: Katie H.
Email: None
To: Erika
Subject: Erika, I disagree with you re Joe
Message:
Hi again Erika,
You wrote, re Joe -
I recall your and my difficulties as being around my feeling that you were disrespectful to people, stubborn and inflexible. Sorry, to be so blunt, but that's what I remember...and why I haven't really responded at length to most of your posts. It seemed to me you would be as unwilling to listen to anyone beliefs as you were with your old ones.

I know you said 'seems', but I don't believe that Joe is unwilling to listen AT ALL. I met Joe Whalen on this site, and we've corresponded a lot and met a few times in person, too. He was extremely kind to me when I first started posting here. We've had a few disagreements about responsibility, but I've always found him to be open and not dismissive to other people's ideas experiences. He is a good debater, and is not reticent about talking about his own feelings and experiences, but I would NEVER describe him as 'disrespectful, stubborn, and inflexible'.

Joe has apologized many times for his behavior towards others when he was a member of Maharaji's organization (quite a few people on here encountered him then). He's also spoken at length about how unhappy he was when he was following Maharaji. I hope you will take that into account in your present communications with him. People do change, as I know that you know - and being unhappy can bring out the worst in people, as I'm sure you know too.

Take care,
Katie

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Date: Sun, Mar 18, 2001 at 21:09:55 (GMT)
From: Monmot
Email: None
To: Katie H.
Subject: Important Point
Message:
I think the point you make, Katie, about people's ability to change, and their regret at times for their previous behavior, is a valuable aspect of the function of this forum. I've been out of CultLand for quite a while now, and sometimes when I tell a story or try to relate how I felt in my CultDays, I feel like I'm talking about another person (thank God).

There can be a lot of unresolved feelings which emerge, not unlike Erika's feelings toward Joe, and stating these feelings, as Erika has, opens the door for potential resolution.

I have a friend who used to be Mike Donner's assistant, and she has some pretty intense feelings about her days doing service with him. I have encouraged her to contact Mike, via the forum or otherwise, in order to possibly defuse and release her feelings. I think many of our behaviors were a combined function of youth and cult thinking--not a fortuitous combo, IMO. Most of us were in our late teens, early 20s when we were the most heavily involved, years hallmarked by unresolved conflicts, prjections, irrational behaviors ad infinitum. (20-20 hindsight on that one.)

One remark about inflexibilty: being in the position Joe was in, you had to be somewhat inflexible in order to fulfill the role demanded of you. I used to be a treasurer where I was responsible for the finances of almost 300 people. I was, and still am, pretty flexible, but all that that flexibilty got me in those days was in deep trouble. That's a whole other story, but I think it's important to uncerscore that inflexibility was a plus back then. Once one removes one's self from such draconian rules and guidelines, such inflexibilty usually dissipates.

M

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Date: Sun, Mar 18, 2001 at 23:33:40 (GMT)
From: Katie H.
Email: None
To: Monmot
Subject: Thanks, Monmot
Message:
Actually, I still have bad feelings (although not very intense) about a woman named Midge (who some people on here know) because she talked the man I was in a relationship with in 1975-76 into leaving me and moving back into the ashram. From what I have read on here, she herself subsequently got married and ended up being a DLM/EV treasurer in Miami (sounds like a dreadful job), and is by all accounts a very nice person.

I'm sure I could work it out with her in about two seconds if we were ever able to talk - it's not a big deal like some of the other personal conflicts people have expressed on here - but your post just reminded me of that.

Take care, and thanks again,
Katie

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Date: Mon, Mar 19, 2001 at 01:23:33 (GMT)
From: Monmot
Email: None
To: Katie H.
Subject: I've got one too
Message:
I have one but it's the opposite of your situation. I remember sitting in the airport after Rome '77 and this couple (can't for the life of me remember their names) from my community came up to me and asked me if I'd let them take my seat on my earlier flight because the husband was so sick. I basically refused because I couldn't get out of there fast enough.

I can't say how many times I've thought of them over the years, and how bad I've felt about refusing their request. They probably don't remember it (or me) at all, but I certainly do. Weird.

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Date: Mon, Mar 19, 2001 at 01:27:55 (GMT)
From: Katie H.
Email: None
To: Monmot
Subject: I've got a LOT of those!
Message:
I think I have apologized to all the people involved though, because they were friends. I acted like a complete asshole at times - I had a flashback to how awful I was while reading one of Michael Donner's posts yesterday - and I'm not proud of it.

Glad you got to tell that story - I hope they read it or hear about it somehow. I have got several things like that that bother me too - just not cult-related.

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Date: Sun, Mar 18, 2001 at 23:50:25 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Katie H.
Subject: FA! KATIE'S THREATENING MIDGE AGAIN!!
Message:
I'm sure I could work it out with her in about two seconds if we were ever able to talk

I've heard about the Katie H. 'Haymaker' but I've never seen it. I don't know, Katie. Wouldn't you at least give her a chance to explain things first?

Jim
The Premie's Friend

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Date: Mon, Mar 19, 2001 at 00:02:10 (GMT)
From: Katie H.
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Whaddya mean you haven't 'seen' it?
Message:
I think you have, Jim (snicker!)

By the way, what's the matter with you, anyway? You seem almost human these days (double snicker!).

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Date: Mon, Mar 19, 2001 at 00:16:43 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Katie H.
Subject: Middle age testosterone drop off?
Message:
I'm just really happy with what's going on here, that's all.
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Date: Mon, Mar 19, 2001 at 09:07:22 (GMT)
From: such
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: nice, fresh approach/no reproach: squashes Roach!
Message:
r.e. [ex]premie washing machine, manufacturer's warning label:

Please read directions and suggested washing guidelines, when considering using any possibly harmful 'industrial-strength detergent' on silks, linens, acrylics/plastics, undergarments, colors that fade or bleed, permanent press, and/or other delicate items: Cold wash on Delicate cycle only. Use 'ALL Free Clear' [or other manufacturer and AMA recommended gentle, safe, non-allergen detergent]. (courtesy of Lever Brothers)

r.e. 'industrial strength detergent' label: 'Warning, harmful if swallowed. Do not spray in eyes. Avoid contact with skin.'
(courtesy of 20 Mule...)

Just save the Raid for the Roach,
the honey for our bees,
some D-Con for the Ratwat,
and compassion for premies...

'Gentleman Jim' -- that's the ticket!:
As your Darvinely-appointed spin-doctor, er publicist/agent, I have been levitating, er hallucinating, er meditating, on a spiffy new image and moniker, for epo p.r. purposes and marketing: 'Gentleman Jim'. [You remember the famous champion boxer? No, not that bully-rapist-pitbull Tyson! So, whenever angry or annoyed, provoked or irritated, just think first: 'gentleman', Gentleman Jim! And then take 10 deep breaths (uh, not 10 deep draughts, as some are wont to do).]

Peace and lentils,

da lil' swami

PS Next, they gonna bring in the hairstylist, makeup artist, and personal workout trainer.

PPS Also, if you want email, need for discretion... rsvp

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Date: Mon, Mar 19, 2001 at 01:02:17 (GMT)
From: Katie
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: We can only hope :)
Message:
Actually, I'm really happy about what's going on around here too. Seems like things have reached critical mass very quickly, although my years on the forum have made me somewhat more cynical than I was previously.

I am sure you and I can find something else to fight about though (not that I particularly want to!)

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Date: Mon, Mar 19, 2001 at 01:09:48 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Katie
Subject: We can only hope :)
Message:
Katie,

Why would I want to fight with you or anyone? I never did, I just didn't want to tolerate bullshit. So of course I had to wrestle with you a bit. You know that. But, surely, it was never personal.

Lunch?

Jim
Friend of the Ex-Premies Who Were Always Just a Little Too Friendly with the Premies

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Date: Mon, Mar 19, 2001 at 01:18:55 (GMT)
From: Katie
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Watch it pal
Message:
I mean it. I could also say that I didn't want to fight with you either, but I just didn't want to tolerate bullshit :). (See how much difference that dumb smiley face makes).

BTW, I don't have a problem with things being personal - at least we're ALLOWED to get personal here without pretending that our personal conflicts are a direct result of the manifestation of the will of Satguru.

No lunch, not yet. We are coming to the Pacific NW in the spring - I think - will check out the temperature then.

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Date: Mon, Mar 19, 2001 at 01:11:21 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Oops! Above post missing safety emoticon! (nt)
Message:
jjjjjjj
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Date: Mon, Mar 19, 2001 at 00:42:08 (GMT)
From: Pat Conlon
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Jim is no longer the lone mad prophet
Message:
crying in the wilderness. His new reincarnation as ''the friend of the premies'' is too damn cute. He's becoming the life and soul of the party. The Pussyweasle won't recognize him.
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Date: Mon, Mar 19, 2001 at 00:00:23 (GMT)
From: Forum Admin
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Jim - Stop Crying Wolf
Message:
There I was, having 30 minutes sleep after 83 hours continuous duty as FA, when my automatic 'is anyone calling the FA' alarm sounded. So I immediately logged in and checked the 'wolf attacking sheep' post.

But, no real threat, so sleep beckons again. So, Jim, remember, us FAs take these calls for help seriously.

Forum Admin.

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Date: Mon, Mar 19, 2001 at 00:13:10 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Forum Admin
Subject: FA! I THINK THIS FA'S THREATENING ME!
Message:
Okay, I've got it. Anyone else calls and there you are, ready to help and everything. But, as a basic civic duty, I try to do some basic hall monitoring and look what I get!

Okay, nap time for me too, I guess.

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Date: Sun, Mar 18, 2001 at 09:26:08 (GMT)
From: Connie
Email: None
To: Erika
Subject: If I may interupt
Message:
Hi Erika

I am surprised that you are willing to acknowledge m has made past mistakes, and say he has evolved in his understanding of what he and k is, yet you don't seem to be applying the same to yourself. Are you saying you knew more than him?

If I go back to the '70's, everyone believed literally what he was saying, and by doing that, formulated their 'understanding' of what the experience was. And he did say those things, the 'satsangs' are on this site as proof.

I can look back at those times, and laugh, even with a certain amount of fondness. I can say geez, how did I believe that, then look at myself now, and say wow, how I have evolved. Isn't knowing one has evolved founded in the past?

Are you saying that you haven't evolved or that you never believed all that stuff. If you didn't why did you choose to live in the ashram, where it was made very clear at that time, that it was a dedication of your life to Guru Maharaji Ji. Arti was sung to Guru Maharaji Ji, the prayer after was a twice daily rededication of your life to Guru Maharaj Ji. Did you not believe it?

Another common thing said back then, and I think it was in a prayer, something about handing your mind over to Guru Maharaj Ji. Where does that fit into 'clear thinking'? The experience of bliss back then was associated with 'being gone', gone from thinking.

Why did you need m's approval to get married?

These are things I have been thinking about from reading your post.

Respectfully.

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Date: Sun, Mar 18, 2001 at 10:22:27 (GMT)
From: Pat Conlon
Email: None
To: Connie
Subject: If I may interupt, Connie
Message:
Your thinking here is very subtle and cool. Thank you. Now stop being shy and show us your real muscles. Don't you feel stronger, cleaner, clearer and more wholesome every day?
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Date: Sun, Mar 18, 2001 at 10:35:28 (GMT)
From: Connie
Email: None
To: Pat Conlon
Subject: Yes Pat, but cult think is subtle nt
Message:
kapow
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Date: Sun, Mar 18, 2001 at 10:43:55 (GMT)
From: Pat Conlon
Email: None
To: Connie
Subject: Tell me about it, sis, but not as subtle as
Message:
Thelma the Thunderstealing Bitch.
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Date: Sun, Mar 18, 2001 at 08:11:03 (GMT)
From: salam
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: Re: Amaroo
Message:
As far as regestration is concerned, whose name is the check payable to, IRCC( Ivorys Rock Cult Center) or EV? If EV, then which EV? EV International or the good old charity EV Inc Aust?
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Date: Sun, Mar 18, 2001 at 09:13:16 (GMT)
From: salam
Email: None
To: salam
Subject: OK, who is the smart cookie that can explain this
Message:
From:https://www.events.elanvital.org/pdf/amaroo_reg_packet.pdf

RESPONSIBILITY

Under these Booking and Entry Conditions, you
are contracting with the following entities: –
Elan Vital Limited in the United Kingdom (trading
as Elan Vital Ltd) which is the official world-wide
co-ordinator for Amaroo 2001 ('Elan Vital Ltd') as
appointed by the Operators. – Elan Vital Inc
(ARBN 007 505 535) in Australia which may act from
time to time through its agent Ivory's Rock
Conference Centre Pty Ltd (ACN 068 618 922)
(together called 'the Operators”).
Except where
the context requires otherwise, in these conditions
a reference to 'we' 'us' or 'our' includes both
Elan Vital Ltd and the Operators. Elan Vital Ltd is
responsible for processing registrations and
allocating on-site accommodation.
The Operators are responsible for making
arrangements for the services offered including
hotel accommodation and ground transport.
The carriers, hotels and other suppliers (including
suppliers of medical care or child care) are
independent contractors and are not agents,
employees or servant of nor joint ventures with
the Operators.
All certificates and other travel documents for plan
services issued by the Operators are subject to the
terms and conditions of the relevant suppliers and
to the laws of the countries in which the services
are supplied and international conventions
between countries, some of which exclude or limit
liability. If the actions of an airline or any other
carrier should cause participants to miss departures,
these conditions will apply regarding cancellation.
The participant agrees that neither the Operators
nor their agents or employees are liable for any
damage, loss (including but not limited to
personal injury, mental distress, loss of enjoyment,
death and property loss), inconvenience or
expense occasioned by any act or omission of any
supplier providing event services or of any other
person, or by any change in itinerary unless
caused by the negligence of the Operators of
their employees in their contractual duties. Under
no circumstances are the Operators to be
construed as a carrier under contract for safe
carriage of the participant as passenger of his or
her baggage and belongings. No carrier shall have
or incur any responsibility for accompanying
passengers except its liability as a common carrier.

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Date: Sun, Mar 18, 2001 at 15:56:29 (GMT)
From: G
Email: None
To: salam
Subject: Info on these companies
Message:
Here's some info on these companies and a bit more. Some of this is already known, but maybe some is not. Note that more information can be purchased. Perhaps if it costs a lot we could do some fundraising. Note also that ELAN VITAL INC has a trading name of IVORYS ROCK CONFERENCE CENTRE, which is almost identical to IVORY'S ROCK CONFERENCE CENTRE, a trading name of IVORY'S ROCK CONFERENCE CENTRE PTY LTD. Also, Elan Vital Inc (ARBN 007 505 535) has a former name of DIVINE LIGHT MISSION INCORPORATED.

Here's the info in detail from http://www.abr.business.gov.au/:

---------------------------------------------

I believe that Jeeps Nominees has been mentioned before
as the owner of IRCC. A 'nominee' is defined as

'A person or an organization in whose name
a security is registered though true ownership
is held by another party.'

Who drives a jeep at Amaroo?

Extracted from ASIC's database at 02:40:16 on 19/03/2001

Name JEEPS NOMINEES PTY LTD
ACN 068 508 298
Type Australian Proprietary Company, Limited By Shares
Registration
Date 06/03/1995
Status Registered
Locality of Registered Office Brisbane QLD 4000
Jurisdiction Australian Securities & Investments Commission

These are the documents most recently received by ASIC from this organisation. Page numbers are shown if processing is complete and the document is available for purchase.

Received Number Pages Description
02/02/2001 0E5637837 Not Imaged 316L (AR 2000) Annual Return - Proprietary Company
29/01/2001 0E5556922 1 304A Notification of Change to Officeholders of Australian Company
29/01/2001 0E5556923 1 304C Notification of Change of Name or Address of Officeholder
26/05/2000 016454008 2 304A Notification of Change to Officeholders of Australian Company
02/02/2000 0E4238845 3 316L (AR 1999) Annual Return - Proprietary Company
11/02/1999 014786171 2 304A Notification of Change to Officeholders of Australian Company
01/02/1999 014806250 2 304A Notification of Change to Officeholders of Australian
27/01/1999 0E2847077 3 316L (AR 1998) Annual Return - Proprietary Company
05/08/1998 014585418 2 304A Notification of Change to Officeholders of Australian Company
02/03/1998 0E1947436 1 902 Supplementary Document
30/01/1998 0E1846106 4 316 (AR 1997) Annual Return Change of Name or Address of Officeholder
316L Annual Return - Proprietary Company
03/02/1997 0E1047722 4 316L (AR 1996) Annual Return - Proprietary Company
30/01/1996 010279375 7 316L (AR 1995) Annual Return - Proprietary Company
12/04/1995 009776902 2 215 Notification of Initial Appointment of Officeholders
11/04/1995 009776869 3 207 Notification of Allotment of Shares
06/03/1995 008788391 1 204 Certificate of Registration Division 1 Pt 2.2
06/03/1995 008781862 4 201C Application For Registration as a Proprietary Company
06/03/1995 008781863 2 410A Application For Reservation of a Name of a New Australian Company

You can find out more about this company or order copies of the documents from the following ASIC information brokers:

Dun & Bradstreet (Australia) Pty Limited
Credit Advantage Limited
Australian Business Research Pty Ltd
Lawpoint

---------------------------------------------

For ARBN 007 505 535 (for Elan Vital Inc):

Extracted from ASIC's database at 02:18:57 on 19/03/2001
Name ELAN VITAL INCORPORATED
ARBN 007 505 535

Type Registered Australian Body
Registration Date 02/02/1977
Status Registered
Locality of Registered Office Brisbane QLD 4000
Jurisdiction Australian Securities & Investments Commission

Former Name(s) DIVINE LIGHT MISSION INCORPORATED

These are the documents most recently received by ASIC from this organisation. Page numbers are shown if processing is complete and the document is available for purchase.

Received Number Pages Description
26/06/2000 016447693 2 304B Notification of to Officeholders of Registered Body
20/08/1998 014570788 2 304A Notification of Change to Officeholders of Australian Company
28/04/1998 013581114 4 304A Notification of Change to Officeholders of Australian Company
14/06/1995 009897070 2 304A Notification of Change to Officeholders of Australian
08/09/1993 004911393 2 304 Notification of Change to Officeholders of Australian Company
304C Change of Name or Address of Officeholder
22/03/1993 003930183 2 304C Notification of Change of Name or Address of Officeholder
19/02/1993 002331703 8 416 Certified Copy of The Constitution of a Foreign Company
19/02/1993 002331708 1 409B Notification of Change in Constitution
15/01/1993 003175142 1 203C Notification of Change of Address in Australia
08/07/1992 003120191 3 304 Notification of Change to Officeholders of Australian Company
304C Change of Name or Address of Officeholder
01/06/1992 002219649 1 203 Notification of Change of Address in Australia
203D Change in Office Hours
29/05/1992 002219668 2 304C Notification of Change of Name or Address of Officeholder
29/05/1992 002219663 2 304C Notification of Change of Name or Address of Officeholder

----------------------------------------------------------

ARBN 007 505 535 REGD *DIVINE LIGHT MISSION INCORPORATED
ARBN 008 386 212 REGD DIVINE LIGHT MISSION INCORPORATED
009473447 REGD *DIVINE LIGHT MISSION INCORPORATED
009992269 REGD *DIVINE LIGHT MISSION INCORPORATED

(* indicates former name)

-----------------------------------------------------------

Extracted from ASIC's database at 02:32:32 on 19/03/2001

Name DIVINE LIGHT MISSION INCORPORATED
ARBN 008 386 212

Type Registered Australian Body
Registration Date 19/12/1977
Status Registered
Locality of Registered Office 0000
Jurisdiction Australian Securities & Investments Commission

No documents received from this organisation

-----------------------------------------------------------

Extracted from ASIC's database at 02:34:00 on 19/03/2001
Name ELAN VITAL INCORPORATED
WA F0770181J

Type Nonc
Registration Date 17/06/1977
Status Registered
Locality of Registered Office not available
Jurisdiction Australian Securities & Investments Commission

Former Name(s) DIVINE LIGHT MISSION INCORPORATED

No document list available for this organisation type

-----------------------------------------------------------

Extracted from ASIC's database at 02:35:02 on 19/03/2001

Name ELAN VITAL INCORPORATED
QLD 77B00919X
Type Nonc
Registration Date 21/03/1977
Status Registered
Locality of Registered Office not available
Jurisdiction Australian Securities & Investments Commission

Former Name(s) DIVINE LIGHT MISSION INCORPORATED

No document list available for this organisation type

-----------------------------------------------------------

ABN Business Name Name Type Location
86 081 336 037 ELAN VITAL INC Main Name 4075 QLD
86 081 336 037 ELAN VITAL INC Trading Name 4075 QLD

ABN: 86 081 336 037
Business Name: ELAN VITAL INC

Status Active From 01 Nov 1999
Legal Names ELAN VITAL INC From 01 Nov 1999
Trading Names
IVORYS ROCK CONFERENCE CENTRE (QLD 4306) From 21 Jun 2000
ELAN VITAL INC (QLD 4075) From 17 May 2000
Main Business Locations QLD, 4075 From 17 May 2000
GST
Registered From 01 Jul 2000
Registered From 01 Jul 2000

---------------------------------------------

ABN Business Name Name Type Location
82 068 618 922 IVORY'S ROCK CONFERENCE CENTRE Trading Name 4306 QLD
82 068 618 922 IVORY'S ROCK CONFERENCE CENTRE PTY LTD Main Name 4306 QLD
86 081 336 037 IVORYS ROCK CONFERENCE CENTRE Trading Name 4306 QLD

--------------------------------------------

ABN: 86 081 336 037
ABN Status: Active from 01 Nov 1999
Legal Name: ELAN VITAL INC
Entity Type: Other Incorporated Entity
Main Business Location
State: QLD
Postcode: 4066
Trading Name(s):
IVORYS ROCK CONFERENCE CENTRE (QLD 4306)
ELAN VITAL INC (QLD 4075)
Other Registrations
GST: Effective from 01 Jul 2000

--------------------------------------------

ABN: 82 068 618 922
ABN Status: Active from 01 Nov 1999
Legal Name: IVORY'S ROCK CONFERENCE CENTRE PTY LTD (from 18 May 2000)
Entity Type: Australian Private Company
Main Business Location (from 18 May 2000)
State: QLD
Postcode: 4305
Trading Name(s): IVORY'S ROCK CONFERENCE CENTRE (QLD 4306) (from 18 May 2000)
GST: Effective from 01 Jul 2000
ACN or ARBN: 068 618 922

Extracted from ASIC's database at 01:50:30 on 19/03/2001
Name IVORY'S ROCK CONFERENCE CENTRE PTY LTD
ACN 068 618 922
ABN 82 068 618 922
Type Australian Proprietary Company, Limited By Shares
Registration Date 23/03/1995
Status Registered
Locality of Registered Office Peak Crossing QLD 4306
Jurisdiction Australian Securities & Investments Commission

These are the documents most recently received by ASIC from this organisation. Page numbers are shown if processing is complete and the document is available for purchase.

Received Number Pages Description
23/08/2000 016543113 2 304A Notification of Change to Officeholders of Australian Company
29/03/2000 016146159 2 304A Notification of Change to Officeholders of Australian
04/01/2000 06861892J 3 316L (AR 1999) Annual Return - Proprietary Company
29/01/1999 06861892I 3 316L (AR 1998) Annual Return - Proprietary Company
16/02/1998 06861892H 4 316L (AR 1997) Annual Return - Proprietary Company
05/12/1996 06861892G 4 316L (AR 1996) Annual Return - Proprietary Company
02/02/1996 010277362 6 207 Notification of Allotment of Shares
31/01/1996 06861892Z 4 316L (AR 1995) Annual Return - Proprietary Company
14/06/1995 009894347 1 215 Notification of Initial Appointment of Officeholders
10/04/1995 009768156 1 203A Notification of Change of Address
23/03/1995 009770326 1 204 Certificate of Registration Division 1 Pt 2.2
14/03/1995 009785480 3 201C Application For Registration as a Proprietary Company
14/03/1995 009788097 1 410A Application For Reservation of a Name of a New Australian Company

--------------------------------------------

Extracted from ASIC's database at 02:37:27 on 19/03/2001

Name IVORY'S ROCK CONFERENCE CENTRE
QLD BN4590016
Type Business Names
Registration Date 03/07/1992
Status Deregistered
Principal Place of Business not available
Jurisdiction Office of Fair Trading, Queensland

No document list available for this organisation type

-----------------------------------------------------

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Date: Sun, Mar 18, 2001 at 12:57:21 (GMT)
From: kev
Email: None
To: salam
Subject: Will the real Elan Vital please stand up nt
Message:
nt
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Date: Sun, Mar 18, 2001 at 05:28:34 (GMT)
From: La-ex
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: Michael Donner-Thanks,plus comments......
Message:
Michael-

Thanks so much for your long and detailed response to my many questions.
It took me a long time to write the questions, and I'm sure it took you a lot longer to answer all of them.
Thanks!

I wanted to explain a little bit more about why having first hand accounts from you guys is so important in helping others like myself put together the pieces of the puzzle.
It really helps if you are trying to understand your life, and to understand why any of us ever got into this, and stayed for so long. It is a story that bears looking at.

One thing that it so interesting to me is the way that many of the PAMS who were X-rated would know about all of this stuff going on at the residence and never let anyone else know about it.
I guess being X-rated really helped with the secrecy of it all.

For instance, being in a community and watching the instructors come through, everyone always liked to hear the 'darshan stories'.
These were a big treat, because they gave you a ittle glimpse of the guru, and were funny lots of times, and a real relief from hearing people like David Smith or Alan Imberato drone on and on about practicing SS&M and giving it all to M.

The interesting thing to me is that people like John Miller, or Dennis Murphy(the cook) obviously knew what was going on at the residence, but would leave out all of the drinking/drugs/affairs from the story, and paint this picture of life at the residence as so idyllic, so beautiful, so peaceful.

In the stories, M would be fun, peaceful, a real cool guy,always engaging in some neat activity with some premie...
I remember John Miller telling me about serving M his lunch while M watched 'Gomer Pyle' every afternoon.
Of course, he never talked about serving him the licquor, smoking the dope, or seeing M so wasted he had to be carried up to bed at night at times.(Danny Blood told those stories years later..)
A few years ago, I spent the day with John, and he was telling me again how M was such a stirling example of the Perfect Master at all times, and reflected such beauty, peace,charisma, whatever.
Always telling the good stuff, carefully editing it for my 'non X-rated' ears

Dennis Murphy, the cook, telling us delightful stories about M and the boys gettin together every night and drinking Kefir (a yogurt drink) and swapping jokes.(He didn't tell us what was in the yogurt drink, or what the drug of choice was that night.)
Of course in the Murphy story, M and Marolyn were happy and the kids were in bed, after a family meal, and M would just tell a few jokes with the boys to be a 'regular guy' with them...
Never did we hear that he was inebriated most every day, unhappy, pissed off,distant,uncaring, acting like a jerk etc...

We just assumed that the residence PAMS were happy and blissed out in their service..

It's just so interesting, because so many of us bought the fairy tale, because we really trusted M and thought he was honest with us.

All of this makes sense as I read this book on cults now by Margaret Singer.

'....it is assumed by the repeated and relentless control and manipulation of the external behaviour of the subjects of brainwashing(their words and deeds), these people can be conditioned to continue to censor and refashion themselves. Ideally, the change would be permanent, short of another round of counter-brainwashing(like deprogramming..)...'

It looks like the 'machine' can censor and refashion itself after it starts up.

I'm glad for the 'counter brainwashing' here at EPO.
Information like this is powerful.

Thanks again,
La-ex

BTW, we met once in Chicago, with your brother and Tom A. from upstate NY, with the El-Hi stuff...
Take care...

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Date: Mon, Mar 19, 2001 at 05:00:12 (GMT)
From: Francesca
Email: None
To: La-ex
Subject: Dennis Murphy could be ...
Message:
a real asshole. There were times when he was OK, but he was one instructor who took advantage of his position as local instructor (in SF) on a night when I wasn't ready for his cr*p. I remember that Megan (the other premie I was with) couldn't believe the way he verbally laid into me either.

To be truthful, I can't remember what was said exactly, only that I was going through some health problems anyway, and it wasn't personal stuff, it was GMJ boot camp kind of stuff.

I'm not surprised he was in denial. I did see the good side of him many times also, so I hope he went on to cultivate that in his life.

--f

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Date: Mon, Mar 19, 2001 at 02:45:54 (GMT)
From: donner
Email: mdonner@netidea.com
To: La-ex
Subject: Michael Donner-Thanks,plus comments......
Message:
absolutely correct la ex. interesting that all us x-rated did not tell those kinds of darshan stories...guessed that they would not be too inspiring is one reason no doubt. some that were better at those stories then others tend to be the ones still around...obviously becasue they are the kind of ambassadors that m prefers. da! group mind above is perfect as examples of us (all)/me.
senior memory will dream of you tonite to remember name/face from book days.
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Date: Sun, Mar 18, 2001 at 21:15:38 (GMT)
From: Dermot
Email: None
To: La-ex
Subject: X-rated? ...where'd this designation come from?
Message:
Hi La-Ex

Good post. I'm curious ......who first used the term X-Rated?

Is it an EPO term or from premies or actually from Rawat. What does it mean ....another term for PAM's or residence staff?
Were they obliged to stay silent as if under contract or what?

I've heard it used often enough, just curious as to its origins etc

Cheers

Dermot

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Date: Sun, Mar 18, 2001 at 08:20:54 (GMT)
From: Brian Smith
Email: None
To: La-ex
Subject: Michael Donner-Thanks,plus comments......'Ditto'
Message:
My sentiments exactly la-ex, as more information is provided from the insiders X-rated experiences it makes it all the more empowering for the perifery premies to move forward and work through the betrayal by m and the cult. What the Mikes have to say sheads a whole new light on things and really cuts to the chase of the matter and hastens the process of awakening and releasing this cult indoctrination.

All of what is posted here is important but the PAM info has been so significant in providing me with the heavy ammunition to shoot down all of the inner babble brainwashing bullshit that lurks in the recesses of my psyche after so many years affiliated with the cult. I for one really needed to hear these reports to confirm my decision to break away and stay strong through the moments of euporhic recall and work through the deprogramming process with myself.

With Fatrat coming to town today , and me fresh out just 2 months I need to stay focused and strong in my new comittment and deal with the inquiries about my absence from such a percieved momentous occasion from my old premie friends. To them it doesn't make sense that I once went halfway across the world to worship this man, and now I will not even go halfway across town to hear one single sorry contaminated word that he has to say.

I am doing something that I have never done before, I am boycotting M, I am not going, I will not show support, and I feel Great about it. This is a really a good test for me with M right here in town today.

I am armed and dangerous with the real truth about FatRat and the Ratpack.

Great things are happening on the forum , I am glad to be a part of the cycle of independence that is gaining momentum and making a huge difference in the lives of so many who have been affected by the cult.

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Date: Sun, Mar 18, 2001 at 21:17:25 (GMT)
From: Richard
Email: None
To: Brian Smith
Subject: Brian - I'm with you brother
Message:
It must be tough - all that ol' Bhakti JuJu religion vibe must be pulling hard on you. Someone near and dear left earlier for Portland and that's tough to take. I'll have Jim here for a session when they return, though - tough love and all should do the trick.

R

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Date: Sun, Mar 18, 2001 at 19:20:39 (GMT)
From: Katie H.
Email: None
To: Brian Smith
Subject: Bravo, Brian! Great Post!
Message:
With Fatrat coming to town today , and me fresh out just 2 months I need to stay focused and strong in my new comittment and deal with the inquiries about my absence from such a percieved momentous occasion from my old premie friends. To them it doesn't make sense that I once went halfway across the world to worship this man, and now I will not even go halfway across town to hear one single sorry contaminated word that he has to say.

I am doing something that I have never done before, I am boycotting M, I am not going, I will not show support, and I feel Great about it. This is a really a good test for me with M right here in town today.

This IS a really big test for you - and you are very courageous in undertaking it. Thanks for your post!

Take care,
Katie H.

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Date: Sun, Mar 18, 2001 at 04:22:23 (GMT)
From: Jim :)
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: Where IS OP anyway?
Message:
Earlier, I asked Erika if she weren't OP, a one-time Maharaji apologist who, like Erika, seemed intelligent, decent and more than civil given the fact that most of us were basically gnawing away at the rope around her neck which she thought was a necklace. Erika says she's not her and I accept that. Indeed, as I think of it, although OP hinted at similar FOG or FOFOG status, she didn't hint at having any husband or kids, least not as far as I could tell. So that's that.

But now I wonder, where IS OP these days? OP, you out there? And how about any of you other old-time, long-time premie participants in this back room of hell we call the forum?
Don't you think we want to be there when the other shoe drops for y'all?

Jim
The Premie's Friend

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Date: Sun, Mar 18, 2001 at 23:24:19 (GMT)
From: AJW
Email: None
To: Jim :)
Subject: WYSIWYG
Message:
Jim,

I know this is OT, but the CIA and the FBI, threatened GBH on EPO, if they dodn't GTST ASAP.

AJW the HTGT

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Date: Sun, Mar 18, 2001 at 05:22:29 (GMT)
From: Katie H
Email: None
To: Jim :)
Subject: OP has a husband and kids
Message:
I think three kids. She DID talk about them on the forum too. But based on what I know about her, OP is absolutely not Erika.

BTW, I was just wondering about OP's whereabouts myself - OP, if you're out there, drop by some time (just to say hello - if nothing more.)

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Date: Sun, Mar 18, 2001 at 04:29:00 (GMT)
From: Roger eDrek
Email: drek@oz.net
To: Jim :)
Subject: Jim, about your emoticon (OT)
Message:
Jim,

It was George H. Bush that was the kinder and gentler President not G.W. Bush. So, your effort to be kinder and gentler is a little late, don't you think?

Besides, it kinda looks like a planaria.

Ah, hell, if the shoe fit - wear it

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Date: Sun, Mar 18, 2001 at 04:38:44 (GMT)
From: Jim ;)
Email: None
To: Roger eDrek
Subject: Don't confuse my smile for weakness!
Message:
That's not necessarily a friendly smile, Roger. In fact, it's meant to be meancing. How do you do a menacing smile here?

Let's see:

:}

how's that?

No, that sucks. How about:

@\@
*

pretty sucky, huh?

;)

There, that's it!

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Date: Sun, Mar 18, 2001 at 06:26:31 (GMT)
From: your friend janet
Email: None
To: Jim ;)
Subject: you really fear looking weak, don't you?
Message:
i used to be like that. when i finally relaxed and stopped my fighting, i was amazed that nothing bad happenned. i didnt need to struggle to hold up the sky. it stayed up by itself.
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Date: Sun, Mar 18, 2001 at 06:32:28 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: your friend janet
Subject: Don't emoticoms show up on web TV, Janet? (nt
Message:
nnnnn
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Date: Sun, Mar 18, 2001 at 06:52:13 (GMT)
From: your friend janet
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: truth in jest my brother...
Message:
you mean like so?

o(;->

or maybe

/#%^{[c

the second is my standard emoticon signature. does it convey my true sentiments fully??

here's one from my cats:

>^,\/,^<

how's this one for irony or sarcasm?

!\B^¿Þ

any others?

yours is too cutesy. the wink is too open to interpretation.

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Date: Sun, Mar 18, 2001 at 08:33:03 (GMT)
From: Pat Conlon
Email: None
To: your friend janet
Subject: Janet in re the Emotikon formerly known as Jim
Message:
You said: ''...the wink (in Jim's emotikon) is too open to interpretation.''

Do you mean that the Emotikon does not always say what he means?

I guess old vibie-feelie hippie Hindus like you and me won't really know till we have the Emotikon's darshan.

But my hunch is that he always says exactly what he thinks. Just like you do.

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Date: Sun, Mar 18, 2001 at 08:35:25 (GMT)
From: janet
Email: None
To: Pat Conlon
Subject: he's become a cartoon of himself, hasn't he? nt
Message:
smirk
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Date: Sun, Mar 18, 2001 at 10:24:32 (GMT)
From: Pat formerly Thelma
Email: None
To: janet
Subject: Haven't we all? It's called middle-age (nt)
Message:
t
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Date: Sun, Mar 18, 2001 at 05:12:58 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Jim ;)
Subject: Latvian Night at my house in one hour!
Message:
I have graciously accepted an invitation to stay home tonight and have a few friends over for drinks and music.
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Date: Sun, Mar 18, 2001 at 00:22:48 (GMT)
From: Kerde Regor
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: My big story: Bill Gates is the Anti-Christ and...
Message:
Oh, what the hell! Might as well put this crap out now. It really ain't nothing. It's more of a giant 'what if?' thing that has some truth to it.

I suspect that Patty Stoneseifer of the Seattle area is most likely a PAM (Person Around Maharaji) only because she probably has a whole boatload of money because she used to be Senior Vice President of Microsoft's Consumer Division (see about the only thing on the web about Patty S.). Shortly thereafter Patty became head of the Microsoft Interactive Media division. And at some point in Patty's career at Microsoft (probably the Consumer Division) Melinda French was a product manager of the Microsoft Bob product and Melinda reported to Patty. A few years later Melinda French would become Melinda Gates. (See why it starts to get scary.)

I don't remember the exact year, but because I'm a Microsoft follower and I read any blurb that has the word Microsoft in it I read in either a newspaper or something else that Patty Stoneseifer was quitting Microsoft to work for a large Los Angeles area Multimedia company. It might have been Dreamworks or Disney or one of those high flyers. In the article Patty was commenting on her success and how everything in life was so wonderful because she always followed her heart. (Aren't those familiar cult code words, premies?)

So, the other night I'm watching the old boob tube and on comes this news show where they are interviewing the author of the big book on why Microsoft lost the anti-trust suit. I forgot his name, but he's getting a lot of TV face time right now as he travels the circuit promoting his book. Anyway, the discussion is on how Bill Gates is so generous with his charitable causes with giving money to vaccinate children in third world countries and all that. My own opinion is that Bill has so much money that what he gives is spit in the ocean and that little guys like us probably give more percentage-wise to charity when we drop a quarter into a Salvation Army pot outside the Nordstroms at Christmas.

And so the author of the book says to the credit of Gates that the charity is well run and it is run by none other than Patty Stoneseifer, a highly regarded Seattle area premie.

Now this is the part that is pure fantasy, of course and you can take it or leave it, but can you imagine Bill Gates charity possibly being interested in funding a small non-profit educational organization based in Malibu or something like that? Wouldn't that be a major hoot? Not saying that she's done that or is doing that, but imagine the freaky possibilities.

And how about these possibilities:

Bill Gates is the Anti-Christ! Oh, yes, you'd better believe it. Just look at this - 666

And what if Patty S. has already gotten to Bill and Melinda and she shows up at their mansion on Lake Washington and they ask her to stop by Blockbuster to pick up some videos to view in the theater and Patty brings a few real movies and slips in one of those hypnotic mountain stream beach walking introductory videos from Visions and Bill and Melinda get hooked? Think about that!

What if Billg wants darshan? Think about the consequences of Bill Gates bending over to kiss and slobber on Maharaji's stinky fat feet!!! Oh my gawd! Where would it end? We aren't talking mortals here. Do you think that Maharaji would have his goons rush Bill Gates in his toe sucking delirium?

And what if they both become fast friends? They have so much in common. Both have mega-yachts. Both have Gulfstream G4s or G5s. Both have huge houses in California and throughout the world. Both of these men love pornography.

And how come I've had to rewrite this damn thing five times? My computer keeps crashing and the electricity keeps going off.

And you know what? I think it's too late. Yup, Bill Gates got the Knowledge that he didn't get when he dropped out of that Harvard College. Bill's a dues paying Amaroo going, arti singing premie now.

You know why I think this? I saw Bill on the TV the other night and he's rocking back and forth like some kind of artistic spaz. But to the trained eye that rocking back and forth body language said it all and that is that Bill was just trying to swallow a gooey load of that snot flavored nectar that was starting to flow ever since his third eye got opened up when he first plugged in that Auto-Knowledge DVD he got from Visions. Of course, Bill tried it out on Steve Ballmer first and it didn't seem to hurt him.

So, there y'all have it. Now you see why the stock market is going to crash. Right, Bill Gates is not only the Anti-Christ, but now he's a premie and Maharaji is draining all of Bill's charity money because of Patty Stoneseifer. And furthermore, with G.W. Bush in office and the law moving to allow churches to receive Federal Aid Maharaji is already in a good position to receive that money too because Maharaji has already done the groundwork and has set up all the charitable organizations he needs to grab a tit and start sucking.

What's all this mean to premies? It means Maharaji doesn't need 'em anymore. With Maharaji sucking on Bill Gates and the U.S. Gov't why does he need all those needy premies and all that having to create secret databases and issue SmartCards and put on a show in every two bit cow town and stay in those smelly five star hotels and have to fly all the time and having to stopover and refuel in those dangerous Arab countries?

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Date: Sun, Mar 18, 2001 at 19:26:41 (GMT)
From: Katie H.
Email: None
To: Kerde Regor
Subject: Regor/Roger, you know I love you, BUT...
Message:
Isn't there sort of a VERY weak link in this story (snicker!)? I mean we don't like Bill Gates either, but...

Take care -
Love,
Katie

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Date: Sun, Mar 18, 2001 at 19:42:57 (GMT)
From: Roger eDrek
Email: drek@oz.net
To: Katie H.
Subject: Yes, it's a very weak link
Message:
In fact, I made most of it up...
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Date: Sun, Mar 18, 2001 at 20:01:00 (GMT)
From: Katie H.
Email: None
To: Roger eDrek
Subject: Yes, it's a very weak link
Message:
LOL!
BTW, when you kept asking I thought Ms. Stonesipher was your ex-wife :). (You wish, right?)
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Date: Sun, Mar 18, 2001 at 20:20:24 (GMT)
From: Roger eDrek
Email: drek@oz.net
To: Katie H.
Subject: Yeah, I wish...
Message:
but now I'm really afraid. Poking the little Maharaji bug with a stick is one thing, but...
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Date: Sun, Mar 18, 2001 at 20:31:10 (GMT)
From: Katie
Email: None
To: Roger eDrek
Subject: We'll protect you, Rog
Message:
You can always switch to Linux :).
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Date: Mon, Mar 19, 2001 at 01:39:52 (GMT)
From: Katie
Email: None
To: Roger
Subject: Or I'm sure the FA would delete if you asked
Message:
...nicely. Both these threads are a bit OT.
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Date: Sun, Mar 18, 2001 at 02:26:55 (GMT)
From: Bin Liner
Email: None
To: Kerde Regor
Subject: Hope you got Nolfet Underpants Kerde....
Message:

...for when the shit hits the fan.

These concerned benefactors of mankind can get mighty pissed off at people who interfere with their plans to have everyone blissfully churning out the toasters all day long .

Hey Patty , I'm an ex-premie in straightened circumstances who wouldn't mind a hand out to get re-educated .

How about it : a few grand for me & I'll tell everyone I meet that you & I are at one with the greatest incarnation of God since JC.

Hell, your boss won't be embarrassed , he'll understand that the whole world is just waiting for ..........

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Date: Sun, Mar 18, 2001 at 01:41:05 (GMT)
From: lekraF DET
Email: None
To: Kerde Regor
Subject: You been round these parts before,Kerde? nt
Message:
nt
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Date: Sun, Mar 18, 2001 at 01:46:39 (GMT)
From: Kerde Regor
Email: None
To: lekraF DET
Subject: Yes, Le Kraf. Are you French by chance?
Message:
We've got to be really careful, Le Kraf. These people are really dangerous.

In fact, I might even need to go into hiding because they are already moving in on me now as we speak. I'm going to need a safe-house soon.

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Date: Sun, Mar 18, 2001 at 01:56:56 (GMT)
From: Tomred
Email: None
To: Kerde Regor
Subject: You can run
Message:
but you can't hide......who in Gods Holy name do you think you are dealing with ?...

Some 2 bit outfit or the ultimate alliance of good and evil past present and future?

Yours Sincerely

LOTU666

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Date: Sun, Mar 18, 2001 at 01:44:33 (GMT)
From: Tomred
Email: None
To: lekraF DET
Subject: visixvi....visixvi.....visixvi.....visixvi (nt)
Message:
zzzzz
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Date: Sun, Mar 18, 2001 at 01:20:30 (GMT)
From: Tomred
Email: None
To: Kerde Regor
Subject: You weren't supposed to go public on this.....
Message:
Your computer was set to explode on the 6th crash.......for some reason certain forces in the universe have allowed you a tiny window.......(but your chance of succes is 1:10 to the power of 40)

we knew one person ( someone of course that the world would think just a low-life prankster / joker) would suss out what was happening.....but we repeat .....you were not supposed to go public.

Reassessment and readjustment is already undeRway.

Give up now. all your efforts are futile. SURRENDER !!!!!!!!!!!!

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Date: Sun, Mar 18, 2001 at 01:32:38 (GMT)
From: Kerde Regor
Email: None
To: Tomred
Subject: CTRL-ALT-Delete, CTRL-ALT-Delete, CTRL-A...
Message:
why won't this damn thing shutdown?
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Date: Sun, Mar 18, 2001 at 01:37:50 (GMT)
From: Tomred
Email: None
To: Kerde Regor
Subject: The answer's in your hand and forehead (nt)
Message:
zzzzz
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Date: Sun, Mar 18, 2001 at 01:07:30 (GMT)
From: Roger eDrek
Email: drek@oz.net
To: Kerde Regor
Subject: That's amazing, Kerde. Thanks for telling us.
Message:
I guess my story pales by comparison.
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Date: Sun, Mar 18, 2001 at 02:37:20 (GMT)
From: Thyms H J Ver
Email: None
To: Roger eDrek
Subject: That's amazing, Kerde. Thanks for telling us.
Message:
Mr eDreck, I suffer from Compulsive Obsessive Disorder and hope you put the corrected version of my sermon on your site, otherwise I will have to whip myself most violently.

Yours in clarity,

Thyms H J Ver

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Date: Sun, Mar 18, 2001 at 04:04:33 (GMT)
From: Roger eDrek
Email: drek@oz.net
To: Thyms H J Ver
Subject: Thy scripture hath been made whole now
Message:
Sermon 755 - The Dead Sea Scroll

can be seen at

Roger's House of Maharaji Drek

Sorry, Rev., I've been having computer problems lately. And I think I might have another sermon in storage that I need to get out as well. It's been very busy here in Camarillo, California.

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Date: Sun, Mar 18, 2001 at 06:36:15 (GMT)
From: janet
Email: None
To: Roger eDrek
Subject: camarillo-where the state prison and nuthouse is??
Message:
at least youll be close to home.
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Date: Sun, Mar 18, 2001 at 19:44:15 (GMT)
From: Roger eDrek
Email: drek@oz.net
To: janet
Subject: Janet, please don't tell anyone
Message:
I'm a bad person and I did a bad thing, but at least they let me have computer access via WebTV once in awhile... ;)
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Date: Mon, Mar 19, 2001 at 05:03:04 (GMT)
From: janet
Email: None
To: Roger eDrek
Subject: microsoft owns webtv
Message:
comprende?
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Date: Sun, Mar 18, 2001 at 03:14:50 (GMT)
From: Rev John Hammond-Smyth
Email: None
To: Thyms H J Ver
Subject: PS - thanks dear brethren
Message:
Thank you all for your praises below but I must not take credit for these scriptures. All the credit goes to the Church of Elan Vital who have given me the words.

I was merely an editor. I am sure that in days to come, their words will inspire me to write more. Surely, it must be said about this church, that it is most generous in giving us these offerings.

May clarity walk with you and perfermance developement surround you.

Rev JHS

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Date: Mon, Mar 19, 2001 at 09:29:55 (GMT)
From: Suchabanana
Email: None
To: Rev John Hammond-Smyth
Subject: Yes,Tis most blessed to give,rather than recede(mt
Message:
mt
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Date: Sat, Mar 17, 2001 at 23:18:11 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: Threads moving so fast, I'm gettind dizzy
Message:
FA, is there any way we can keep my thread about the Taleban permanently up or something? It just seems so goddammed important and I'm afraid of it getting lost in all this Maharaji shit. Sandy and I are in counselling together and I don't think it'd be appropriate to go inactive right at this moment.

Just asking.

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Date: Sat, Mar 17, 2001 at 23:31:27 (GMT)
From: Forum Admin
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: So are we....
Message:
We've already increased the active index from 400 to 500 posts because of the increase in traffic (as well as increasing the inactive index). Bet you missed that, eh? Which is why keeping OT threads to a reasonable level is becoming an increasingly important issue.

We, the FAs, have no power to keep a single thread active. If you feel it's of genuine general interest, then of course you can bring it to the top by starting a new thread. Alternatively, you could continue your debate with Sandy by email.

Forum Admin

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Date: Sat, Mar 17, 2001 at 23:33:43 (GMT)
From: Jim :)
Email: None
To: Forum Admin
Subject: Thanks (??)
Message:
OK, I give up. Where are the emoticoms? :)

In fact, from now on, I'm going to be 'Jim :)'

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Date: Sun, Mar 18, 2001 at 06:46:13 (GMT)
From: bill--most threads should
Email: None
To: Jim :)
Subject: wait while the big hitters are here....nt
Message:
asdg
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Date: Sat, Mar 17, 2001 at 23:24:26 (GMT)
From: Roger eDrek
Email: drek@oz.net
To: Jim
Subject: Just wait for my blockbuster about Patty
Message:
oh yeah!
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Date: Sat, Mar 17, 2001 at 21:27:02 (GMT)
From: Katie H.
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: Susan's post to Erica from inactive
Message:
Susan wrote the following post to Erika, which has now gone inactive. I wanted to bring it up to the top because I think it's important. A lot of premies have posted on the forum saying that they never had a bad experience with M or K and are happy practicing knowledge. Susan's post is one of the best answers to those statements that I've read on this forum. I've taken the liberty of bold-facing some of the words that had the most meaning for me.

I was also struck by the part of Mike Donner's post that talked about the isolation felt by PAM's and other premies, and I think Susan's post speaks to that as well.

Thanks to Susan, as always, for your clear and incisive posts.

Susan wrote:
Erika, I do not think I know you, but I did know some premies I am sort of reminded of. To this day, I remember this one premie couple with fondness and respect, though as the years have gone on I do see a few things I did not then. I will not use their names but they were 'householders' in the old Miami community, and just the nicest, most together people I had ever met in premie world. As a young premie they were super kind to me, drove me to satsang sometimes, and also modeled that you can be 'normal' and be a premie back in the days when looking 'normal' was rare. They had good jobs, were well spoken, and did only as much satsang, service and meditation as they could without ruining the rest of their lives. This was 1975-1979....when almost everyone was joining the ashram.

I went to Miami about 1990 and visited with her, and was suprised she did not share the bitter feelings I had about the cult. They also continued in a life I would say paralelled yours, good jobs, nice people, great kids......she was a model mom and I learned a lot from her.

I was about to say I am not judging but that isn't true, I am about to judge. There were always premies who didn't take what Rawat said 100% literally, and there were always premies who took care of themselves and lived by their own rules. Now, I admire those people, but only to an extent. Because honestly, even though they were taking care of themselves, to do so they had to rationalize that what Rawat was saying (about ashrams) was for what was going on with the rest of the premies.

Let's say you were really Rawat's teacher's pet, as Jim implied, let's say he really did treat you with kindness, respect and was wonderful to you, would it excuse what happened to so many others? I know from your post you will say of course not, it is obvious you care about others from your post ( and thank you for caring about the Jagdeo is specifically ). But I do think a mentality of not caring about each other was fostered in the cult while I was there, especially in the very late 70's. I am not sure if any of this will have meaning for your process but take it or leave it.

Erika, I encourage you to continue your self examination, and I encourage you to examine Mr. Rawat not just in reference to yourself, but also as an advocate for the other human beings in this world.

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Date: Sun, Mar 18, 2001 at 02:11:21 (GMT)
From: Erika
Email: None
To: Katie H.
Subject: Susan's post to Erika from inactive
Message:
Katie H and Susan,

I also think Susan's post was very moving. And I completely agree that many premies were really dreadful to each other in the 70s, and justified it by saying that everything except K and love for M was 'an illusion.' It always pissed me off, and I fervently hope I never did that to anybody.

I also agree -- and it's becoming clearer to me by reading the EPO -- that a number of people have felt pain in their relationship with M. I'm saddened by that, and I hope that M takes responsibility for some of the mistakes he has made that contributed to their confusion and unhappiness.

However, it's also clear to me that there are many thousands of people who have benefitted from practicing K and also from M's inspiration to focus on experiencing joy and contentment. (I know that lots of you guys dismiss that as 'cult' behavior, but that just feels too simplistic to me.)

Francesca said in a post below, that she feels my feelings of love and respect for M (and especially my participating in darshan) are 'incredulous' -- by which I assume she means unbelievable -- given everything on this board.

Now, I admit I may be misunderstanding here, but it sounds as though you guys are saying you don't think it's right for me to be a student of M because some people have been hurt by him or by their confusion regarding him. I'm sorry , but that doesn't make sense to me. It's kind of like saying that you don't think it's morally right for me to be friends with a person some other people hate.

It may be that my relationship with M will change dramatically, but it won't be based on your negative relationships with M. It will be based on what I come to feel and believe for myself.

with respect,
Erika

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Date: Sun, Mar 18, 2001 at 19:09:20 (GMT)
From: Francesca
Email: None
To: Erika
Subject: Gotta comment here
Message:
I was tired last night and other people did such a good job with their comments I will try not to cover much of the same ground. You said:

Francesca said in a post below, that she feels my feelings of love and respect for M (and especially my participating in darshan) are 'incredulous' -- by which I assume she means unbelievable -- given everything on this board.

Now, I admit I may be misunderstanding here, but it sounds as though you guys are saying you don't think it's right for me to be a student of M because some people have been hurt by him or by their confusion regarding him. I'm sorry , but that doesn't make sense to me. It's kind of like saying that you don't think it's morally right for me to be friends with a person some other people hate.

It may be that my relationship with M will change dramatically, but it won't be based on your negative relationships with M. It will be based on what I come to feel and believe for myself.

There's a bit of flip flopping many premies seem to go through with their relationship to M, and in my book, it keeps the logic extremely squishy. When it's convenient, you (and to be fair, many others) hold him to the rules you have for personal friends -- i.e. if the friend is absolutely awful to some of your other friends, even perhaps mean, you may choose not to shut down your ties with this person. And like you say in another post, if something that person did was reprehensible enough, it might be a 'deal breaker' in your relationship with that person.

The problem with the 'friend' logic is that, except for a few people like Mike Dettmers was, and several others may be now, Maharaji is not their 'friend' in any personal sense of the word. You are currently wondering if this man will even answer your letter. What kind of friend is that? He was/is most of our personal friend only in some fantasy in our imagination that hooks up who he says he is in relation to K, and/or other factors too numerous and personal to speculate on. For example, a lot of Catholics probably feel the pope is their 'friend' even though he won't answer their letters either. And in that sense of feeling like you've gotten some inspiration, he is indeed a 'friend' to you -- but that is a spiritual friend, and shouldn't be confused with ordinary relationships.

Then when it's works for you, he's not just a friend, he is this great Master who is owed deep respect, who is/or was a Master to thousands, perhaps millions of others. If someone has that position of influence over others and presents themselves in a certain manner, aren't there ethical and moral issues involved? For example, just one of the issues raised on this Forum, the issue of teachers having sex with students over which they have undue (and sometimes god-like) influence spans all religions and all times. It is a debate that rages on. When is this type of behavior unacceptable? Here is just one of many websites where this issue is explored by the students of Ananda. I will say up front that this is a problem, as I see it, in Tibetan Buddhism, particularly in the Kagyu and Nyingma lineages where the Lamas, Tulkus and high-level teachers are not required to be monastics (although many of them are). (In the Gelugpa lineage, they are monastics.) There is a story on that Ananda website about Kalu Rinpoche, and I happened to be a student in the Shangpa Kagyu lineage when that story came out, and Kalu Rinpoche was my teacher's beloved teacher. The lineage of most of the empowerments I had received had come through Kalu Rinpoche. I was in such a state of denial about it. I rationalized my response by saying that, even if it was true, she shouldn't have come out with it after he died, because he couldn't defend himself or present his side of the story. The truth of the matter is, she probably came out with her book and the Tricycle article after she had processed, or sorted it all out somewhat. Here's that article:
Tantric robes And according to some Tibetan Buddhists, I am probably going to spend the next 100 lifetimes in the lower realms, perhaps as a dog, for even showing you this article! Cults, ya gotta love 'em! So you can see that when I put some of this stuff up to you I am not necessarily a shiny pot calling the kettle black. Been there, done that, hopefully not DOING that.

Second, this seems to be a great example of the 70s stuff you say was left behind -- i.e. it's all about your relationship with M, and as long as that is groovy, it doesn't make sense to you to question him based on anyone else's experience. This is the divide and conquer stuff Mike Donner has spoken about so eloquently in several places on this site. I realize now that that's where my 'little nobody' comment also comes from. People are not going to let the experience of a 'little nobody' come between them and M. Nice stories, empathy, respect and all that. Group therapy or something.

The third thing is that, vis a vis squaring Darshan and devotion to M with what is on this board: There is a lot of other information on this board besides people's own personal experiences and perceptions of what went on in the cult. There is stuff from Donner, Dettmers, Guy Rollins, Jean-Michel, and people who witnessed or were participants to some pretty disturbing behavior by M. There is also information on the site concerning the fact that the meditation M teaches is taught by many others and it is not as unique, proprietary or special as M lead us to believe.

I know you are brave to come on this site and I hope I will always speak to you as kindly as I can, but there is just some stuff I can't help but comment on.

Take care and be well, Francesca

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Date: Sun, Mar 18, 2001 at 03:51:31 (GMT)
From: Jim :(
Email: None
To: Erika
Subject: Susan's post to Erika from inactive
Message:
Now, I admit I may be misunderstanding here, but it sounds as though you guys are saying you don't think it's right for me to be a student of M because some people have been hurt by him or by their confusion regarding him. I'm sorry , but that doesn't make sense to me. It's kind of like saying that you don't think it's morally right for me to be friends with a person some other people hate.

It makes perfect sense. But can you do this? We both know that IF, hypothetically, Maharaji is really just a cult leader it follows that, by any objective measure, you are necessarily a cult member. As such, your thinking's askew here and, sorry, but you just can't trust your own compass points on this one. I mean, can you possibly, just for argument's sake, assume that?

Okay, that's all by way of asking you to simply seek some outside opinion. Ask your brother, Kurt, for instance. He looked at the situation a bit, he's somewhat familiar with it all. Ask him to give you the straight goods and promise him you wan't nothing less. If he respects you he'll do that. How could he do otherwise?

But ask him what? Ask him if the fact that some people have been hurt by Maharaji should have any bearing on your 'teacher-student' relationship with him.

See, for my money, any reasonable person would answer 'You're damn right it would!' I can't see how Kurt or anyone else not affiliated with Maharaji could say otherwise. So why not take a chance and do a little outside reality checking? Can't hurt, can it?

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Date: Sun, Mar 18, 2001 at 04:47:23 (GMT)
From: Erika
Email: None
To: Jim :(
Subject: Susan's post to Erika from inactive
Message:
Jim,

Hate to keep saying I've already done what you suggest (g), but in this case, once again, it's true. Kurt and I have talked about this on a number of occasions. His take is that any public figure is going to atract both supporters and detractors (having experienced that to a certain extent himself), and the more powerful or controversial a figure, the more passionate both sides will be.

His feeling about my involvement with M and K is that it seems to be bringing me a great deal of joy and has turned out, in the long run, not to be weird (again, just his point of view).

Erika

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Date: Sun, Mar 18, 2001 at 05:01:22 (GMT)
From: Jim ;/
Email: None
To: Erika
Subject: Okay ...... then how about this?
Message:
Look, I'm serious. Kurt definitely told me that he had to be careful with you guys a bit because, well, he loves you both so much and he's just grateful as hell that things in 'Maharaji's World' normalized enough that you and David could hang with the family and such. No, Erika, I'm not lying. I'm a lawyer after all.

So, before I get any flak for violating some sort of secret or something, please remember:

1) Kurt never said it was a secret.

2) He never gave me back my 'Who is Guru Maharaj Ji?' in spite of promising me he would and me bugging him about it several times.

3) I'm the first one to say that he spoke of you two siblings of his with nothing but respect. Indeed, when I made jokes about you and about David's over-the-top emotional singing, the phone went silent and it was either him or the cops that tap my phone constantly, someone started to sniffle a bit.

4) Seriously? Seriously, he really did speak of you guys with respect but did, definitely, say that he felt he had to walk carefully around all this Maharaji stuff for fear of alienating you, to what extent who'd ever know?

All in all, it's probably a damn good thing for him that Tina cut the story. A soft piece on a pernicious cult leader could have been a career breaker for him. If not that, at least an embarrassment.

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Date: Sun, Mar 18, 2001 at 05:15:48 (GMT)
From: Erika
Email: None
To: Jim ;/
Subject: Okay ...... then how about this?
Message:
Jim,

No flak will be given. I have no doubt that Kurt said he felt he needed to walk on eggshells a bit with us re M. He said the same thing to me in the course of writing the article. In fact, one of the great things for me about his writing the article was that it opened up more communication inthis realm.

Remember, Jim, this was all three years ago, and we have (if I do say so myself (g)) a quite healthy family dynamic. I believe the extent he's 'careful' around us these days is just the normal diplomacy one exercises when one's loved ones are involved in something one finds somewhat goofy.

Erika

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Date: Sun, Mar 18, 2001 at 05:32:31 (GMT)
From: Jim ;/
Email: None
To: Erika
Subject: How 'bout someone else then?
Message:
Okay, enough of this Kurt stuff. (Although, if you're ever at his place and he goes to the bathroom or something, would you please check under his bed for my copy of Who is Guru Maharaj Ji??)

But how about someone else? How about asking someone else, someone you can trust, maybe someone like David Smith for instance, what they think of your original statement which, I'll repeat for you in case you've forgotten:

'I would gladly kill both my parents in a heart beat if the guru asked me to.'

But maybe David Smith isn't the right guy. Are you a religious person? Does your family attend church regularly? Maybe your pastor or rabbi ('Andersen'? Hm, sounds Unitarian) ....anyway, ....

If you like, I can ask around. Want me to run it by a few people tonight?

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Date: Sun, Mar 18, 2001 at 06:47:50 (GMT)
From: Erika
Email: None
To: Jim ;/
Subject: How 'bout someone else then?
Message:
Jim,

WHOA NELLY. I was tracking along just fne, and then we did a bat turn with the killing the parents thing. My only explanations: 1) you're on heavy mood-altering drugs, 2) you're a paranoid schizophrenic, 3) you're kidding, 4) you're confusing me (and I mean really confusing me) with someone else.

Erika

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Date: Sun, Mar 18, 2001 at 06:51:29 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Erika
Subject: I GIVE UP!!!
Message:
Erika, Erika!

Number 3, girl. Sheesh!

Sorry, but you try doing this for four years. Number 3.

Okay, it's Latvian time.

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Date: Sun, Mar 18, 2001 at 10:32:27 (GMT)
From: Pat Conlon
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: I GIVE UP TOO. Another koan from zen master
Message:
What is ''number 3'' oh, great Roshi Emotikon?

Okay, I'm thick.

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Date: Sun, Mar 18, 2001 at 12:45:34 (GMT)
From: JHB
Email: None
To: Pat Conlon
Subject: I GIVE UP TOO. Another koan from zen master
Message:
It's number 3 of the standard defenses premies give for Maharaji, you know, stuff like 'That was long ago - he's changed now', or 'It was the Mahatmas' fault', or 'It doesn't affect me, and I've got my experience so I'm alright, Jack'. We came up with a list a couple of years ago - it should be on the EPO site somewhere. In fact, that last one I just came up with seems to describe Erika, so maybe that's #3.

BTW, I don't think Erika is sincere. Should I start a thread about it?

John, who hasn't got time to say why he doesn't trust Erika as far as he can throw the logs he's about to go and collect from the forest, and also thinks Joe comes across as a much nicer person than Erika.

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Date: Sun, Mar 18, 2001 at 18:03:09 (GMT)
From: Pat Conlon
Email: None
To: JHB
Subject: Thanks John for explaining koan from zen master NT
Message:
h
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Date: Sun, Mar 18, 2001 at 14:37:08 (GMT)
From: Dermot
Email: dermot@mullan.net
To: JHB
Subject: Spill the beans then John...
Message:
What's your take on this? Some sort of Latvian connection? (re:'this is weird are you Latvian?) Or...Previous 'sezyou' stuff? Or something else?

Yep start a thread or spill it here.

Cheers

Dermot

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Date: Sun, Mar 18, 2001 at 03:20:33 (GMT)
From: Brian
Email: brian@ex-premie.org
To: Erika
Subject: Basing your life on your own beliefs
Message:
It may be that my relationship with M will change dramatically, but it won't be based on your negative relationships with M. It will be based on what I come to feel and believe for myself.

I can respect that, although I know that you probably won't get a lot of support for it here.

You should also be aware that many of the people who post here feel that they were victimized by having followed (or tried to follow) what Maharaji said they should do, and that they viewed his words as a coach's instructions on how to actually play 'life', rather than as simply friendly inspirational cheerleading.

When Maharaji told you it was okay to get married, you must understand that he was telling many others that it was NOT okay at the same time. When he told you that you didn't need to live in an ashram, he was telling them that it was required if they actually wanted to benefit from Knowledge.

So while your feelings for him as a friend are valid, you have to take into account that their feelings for him as a manipulative fraud who stole years of their lives are also valid. What isn't valid is that he could 'tell' people entirely different 'truths' at the same time.

If your awareness of their feelings and experiences with him causes you to hope that he will address those injustices, and if you feel any disappointment in him as a responsible human being when he doesn't do that, you might just come to share their view of him on your own.

You're right that it will be your own judgement coming into play on the matter. But just remember that it's the tears of his victims that best illustrate a criminal's TRUE character, and not the tears of his own mother.

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Date: Sun, Mar 18, 2001 at 04:40:48 (GMT)
From: Erika
Email: None
To: Brian
Subject: Basing your life on your own beliefs
Message:
Brian,

Helpful and interesting post, thanks...

Erika

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Date: Sun, Mar 18, 2001 at 03:17:25 (GMT)
From: Katie H.
Email: None
To: Erika
Subject: Hi Erika
Message:
Dear Erika -
First, my post wasn't personally aimed at you, although I did use your name in the title, so I can see why you might think that. I just liked what Susan had to say, and as I said, I've never quite known what to say to people who come on the forum to say that they are happy practicing K and being a follower (or whatever) of Maharaji.

As Marianne also said recently, it's never been my intent to 'convert' any premies by my posts here on the forum. I haven't kept silent about my own feelings and experiences either, especially when the feelings that someone else has had are contradictory to mine. However, I don't expect you or any other premie to change your attitude towards M because of the feelings I have, and I do not think that was Susan's intent either. Since you ARE posting on this forum, though, you have shown yourself to be somewhat open to to getting replies from people about their own experiences, even when contradictory to yours.

You wrote:
Now, I admit I may be misunderstanding here, but it sounds as though you guys are saying you don't think it's right for me to be a student of M because some people have been hurt by him or by their confusion regarding him. I'm sorry , but that doesn't make
sense to me. It's kind of like saying that you don't think it's morally right for me to be friends with a person some other people hate.

First, I don't agree with your analogy in the last sentence. I am friends with people who hate each other, but I don't think being someone's 'student' (when you consider what M is supposedly teaching) is at all similar to being someone's 'friend'. Being friends with someone implies an equal relationship - being someone's student does not.

Secondly, I very much hope that anyone who reads this forum or site will make decisions about their relationship with Maharaji for themselves, based on what is right for them, not what is right for anyone else on here. That said, I don't know how you, or anyone else, can NOT take into account other people's experiences with Maharaji in making this decision. If Maharaji was your 'friend' (with the equal give and take that that implies), I can see how this would be possible, but since you view yourself as his student, and as someone who is learning about life from him, I do not think that you can discount how he has treated others.

You wrote:
It may be that my relationship with M will change dramatically, but it won't be based on your negative relationships with M. It will be based on what I come to feel and
believe for myself.

Erika, I really don't want to get in your face, because you have been open about yourself and your feelings here on this forum, and I appreciate that very much. However, I don't believe that you exist in a vacuum, and I think that what you 'come to feel and believe for yourself' about Maharaji must necessarily include what other people have believed and felt along the way.

If Maharaji is a personal friend of yours - fine. I don't take issue with the friendships people make, no matter how horrible I personally might think their friends are (as long as I don't have to hang out with them!). However, I do take issue with people regarding Maharaji as a teacher - and as somehow 'higher' and more skilled in spiritual or life matters than they are. That is what I was trying to convey.

Take care,
Katie

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Date: Sun, Mar 18, 2001 at 04:49:55 (GMT)
From: Erika
Email: None
To: Katie H.
Subject: Hi Erika
Message:
Katie,

Very good and thoughtful post, thanks.

Erika

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Date: Sun, Mar 18, 2001 at 06:38:37 (GMT)
From: Katie Darling (was Baier)
Email: darlingwave@aol.com
To: Erika
Subject: Hi Erika
Message:
Hi Erika,

I was amazed to realize that it was you posting, mostly because I somehow got that you were English, from your first post.

Do you remember me? I'm a formerly English premie, got to know you a bit either when at IHQ or in Miami, just when you were newly together with that wonderful man (Scott?) who I presume is now your hubby. I was with John Baier - not sure if we were married yet. When you got married, I went to a store and bought you a book which was a kind of artbook called 'Love' with paintings and poems. I somehow never sent it to you, and we lost all touch, and I kept it for years. The other day I was in a store and saw that that book is still on sale all these years later, and I actually thought of you for a few moments for the first time in 20-some years, probably. THen came home and saw you were Sezyou. Is that cosmic or what.... oh well, anyway... Anyway, I'm very glad that the love lasted so long and that you are so happy!

I had presumed you were an ex-premie, because I never saw you on the wild program circuit that I was on for those years after both our marriages (late seventies early eighties). I really get what you are saying about the validity of your experience no matter what ours were (you can read mine all over the place here - used to be Disculta, and I have a Journey). I was thinking about it last night, and I remembered two clients I had in my therapy practice years ago, who were sisters. One had been consistently sexually abused by their grandfather. The other wasn't. She thought of him as a kindly old Santa Claus-type figure. The issue they were having was between themselves - the molested one feeling that the other one should cut all ties with the ailing old geyser. Both their experiences were valid. Should the non-molested one be influenced by the other one's experience?

I think it's a valid question. I have spent a lot of my life since being a premie in various explorations of belief systems and how different realities can co-exist and both be valid, and how to stretch one's consciousness to integrate both sides of something. Both grandfathers were the 'real' grandfather, some of the time. But a full understanding of the grandfather included both, I think.

I actually left MJ because of the effects I saw that his irresponsible disowned behavior was having on others, more than on me. I became outraged (I wrote about the details of this in a recent inactive post). Briefly, I wrote a very long letter to him detailing how things he was saying and doing were making premies suicidal - I had dealt with three in a week, and what was he going to do to clear up the confusion. I knew who to give the letter to (having been a mail-answerer myself) and never heard anything and exited. Only later did I realize to what extent I myself was traumatized and my health battered by some very direct stuff that MJ did and said.

I've been out for a very long time, and am happy, blissfully married, successful, do helpful work. I have found so many spiritual paths to explore and nourish myself with that have so much greater integrity. I don't deny the 'highs' and good feeling that I experienced, but now know that those were generated by us. I have experienced much more wonderful experiences - including profound and real connection to source energy - in groups where there is no superior power in person at whose lotus feet to bow.

I send you love and best wishes,

Katie Darling

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Date: Sun, Mar 18, 2001 at 20:48:30 (GMT)
From: Wonderful Man
Email: None
To: Katie Darling (was Baier)
Subject: Hi Erika
Message:
Katie: thankyou for the kudos.of course,we both rember you quite well. I have a vivid memory of a biz card you had w/ your name on it w/ the letters 'M.S.U'. after you name. I was impressed and surprised that you had a degree. i asked you what the MSU stood for and you replied,'Making stuff Up.' I thought, what chutzpah this chick has. i don't know if you recall the moment, but it's no doubt etched in my filo-fax.xo ScottC.
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Date: Mon, Mar 19, 2001 at 11:31:16 (GMT)
From: Katie Darling
Email: None
To: Wonderful Man
Subject: Hi Erika
Message:
Hi Wonderful man,

Good to hear from you. I'm still making stuff up with the same degree and all. It's going quite well.

Love always

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Date: Sun, Mar 18, 2001 at 07:59:02 (GMT)
From: Erika
Email: None
To: Katie Darling (was Baier)
Subject: Hi Erika
Message:
Katie,

Of course I remember you. I especially remember a party at your apartment just before Scotty and I got married.

Yeah, I never did the wild program circuit...somehow lots of things others thought about what dedication entailed, or what they needed to do to be 'OK,' never made sense to me.

I deeply hope that a real shift is happening, and that M can find the courage to acknolwedge past mistakes, and his own evolution -- as he has, I feel, found the courage to actually change over the years.

Wonderful that you're having a great life.

Salud, amor y dinero...

Abrazos,
Erika

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Date: Sun, Mar 18, 2001 at 03:09:35 (GMT)
From: Bin Liner
Email: None
To: Erika
Subject: When did you stop being a devotee ...
Message:

& become a student ?

The difference in meaning between those 2 words is vast.

This is the crux of it : it's not about what you or I did or didn't experience , it's about the real claims made in real time , though now past , which conflict with present statements made by Mr. Rawat , as to what he's all about.

Seeing as you know him so well , maybe you could explain .

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Date: Sun, Mar 18, 2001 at 04:56:10 (GMT)
From: Erika
Email: None
To: Bin Liner
Subject: When did you stop being a devotee ...
Message:
Bin Liner,

It's a great question. The shift for me came in 1990. I had been somewhat distant from M and K for a few years, busy having and raising my babies, deepening my marriage, working, etc. I went to see M and realized I didn't feel like a 'devotee' any more, in the old 70s-80s sense. So I took some time to reflect on that, and think about how and whether I wanted to still be in relationship with M.

Where I ended up was that I wanted M to be my teacher in the area of K. I felt he had always helped me focus on the possibility of my own internal joy, and I wanted to continue to take advatnage of that.

Warmly,
Erika

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Date: Sun, Mar 18, 2001 at 03:03:58 (GMT)
From: Susan
Email: None
To: Erika
Subject: how I see it
Message:
Now, I admit I may be misunderstanding here, but it sounds as though you guys are saying you don't think it's right for me to be a student of M because some people have been hurt by him or by their confusion regarding him. I'm sorry , but that doesn't make sense to me. It's kind of like saying that you don't think it's morally right for me to be friends with a person some other people hate.

I do not think it is fair or accurate to state people have been hurt by their confusion regarding him. Erika, that is just parroting the way Rawat blames people for seeing the Emporer has no clothes.

And yes, I think a person can be so morally reprehensible that one can say it is wrong for anyone to advocate what he is doing, or be his 'student'. Yes, I think Mr. Rawat is corrupt enough it is wrong for anyone to be his 'student'.

You aren't talking about being his friend. And if you were, I would only consent to be friends with him if you could be on equal footing and if he would honestly face his past, otherwise, I don't think the man deserves friends, and I certainly think he isn't capable of being a 'friend'.

I am sorry this sounds harsh, but this is what I believe.

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Date: Sun, Mar 18, 2001 at 05:03:12 (GMT)
From: Erika
Email: None
To: Susan
Subject: how I see it
Message:
Susan,

I know it's what you beleive, and I don't mind hearing it. Since the friend metaphor didn't make sense to you and others, let me use an example of the relationship of student and teacher. My favorite teacher in college was a very strange guy, who lived a really unconventional and some might say morally questionable life. Some people hated him, for these and other reasons, and didn't want to be in his classes. I felt I had a lot to learn from him and decided to study with him anyway.

Now, there are things that would have been deal-breakers for me as far as studying with that teacher was concerned, and there are certainly things that would be deal-breakers for me with M. I understand that for many people on this board, the deal-breaker showed up long ago.

Erika


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Date: Sun, Mar 18, 2001 at 19:56:49 (GMT)
From: Katie H.
Email: None
To: Erika
Subject: The 'teacher' analogy
Message:
Hi again, Erika -
To preface this, I want to say that I hope you don't feel like you're on the witness stand here - you have gotten a LOT of responses and further questions.

You wrote above:
Since the friend metaphor didn't make sense to you and others, let me use an example of the relationship of student and teacher. My favorite teacher in college was a very strange guy, who lived really unconventional and some might say morally questionable life. Some people hated him, for these and other reasons, and didn't want to be in his classes. I felt I had a lot to learn from him and decided to study with him anyway.

I disagree with this analogy on two points. First, I think that a teacher's personal life IS relevant depending on WHAT they are teaching. My major prof. in college was a very devout born-again Christian. However, the subject area was soil science - specifically soil formation, and since he did not believe in Creationism (which would have been a deal-breaker for me, for sure!), we got along fine, and I learned a lot from him.

You wrote re M:
My relationship with M, though it's profoundly different than it used to be, is still important. He's my teacher in the deep experience of my interior life.

I would be somewhat averse to having a person with a questionable personal life as a teacher of 'the deep experience of my interior life'. I know this wouldn't bother everyone - and I have also heard the saying about 'those who can't do, teach'. I have had some therapists and counselors who were pretty weird, and I did learn some things about myself, and about my 'interior life' from them, but had to take many other things they said with a grain of salt, and to move on when I felt that I could learn nothing more from them.

That brings up the other point at which the 'teacher' analogy breaks down. In my experience, the very best teachers encourage their students NOT to remain students for the rest of their lives. For example, the major prof I referred to above encouraged me to go to another university for further study so I could learn more from someone else - although he is an extremely intelligent person, he recognized that he didn't know everything. I've also had therapists tell me that they feel I've 'graduated' - basically that our work together was done. Maharaji seems to view the student/teacher relationship as perpetual - no one EVER graduates, and people are not encouraged to learn about life in any other way except Maharaji's way.

So my question is - how long do you need Maharaji to be your 'teacher'. Do you ever graduate - can you ever experience your interior life without his 'teaching'? Or are Maharaji's followers perpetual students because he is and always will be the 'master'>

Take care,
Katie

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Date: Sun, Mar 18, 2001 at 20:33:38 (GMT)
From: Pat Conlon
Email: None
To: Katie H.
Subject: The 'teacher' analogy
Message:
You said: ''I would be somewhat averse to having a person with a questionable personal life as a teacher of 'the deep experience of my interior life'.''

Me too seeing that a major part of our interior life is called ''conscience.'' A clean conscience is essential to peace of mind. A dirty one makes for insanity.

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Date: Sun, Mar 18, 2001 at 15:05:48 (GMT)
From: Susan
Email: None
To: Erika
Subject: deal breakers
Message:
my deal breaker wasn't secret, or personal.

In Philadephia in 78/79 the first Mala dance, it was like I woke up. All the premies were in a frenzy when Rawat came out 'topless' except for the flowers. The sister next to me fell to the floor and said she had an orgasm. People were fainting, dropping like flies, and acting like ......cult members! And the man on the stage smiling....he was acting like a ....cult leader....for me, the experience was like the doubts I had been supressing just started screaming and won.

I moved out of the ashram shortly therafter. I called my mom to come get me, didn't tell anyone I was leaving and went home. I was 17. Sadly. I needed some sort of cult exit therapy which wasn't around at the time,and proceeded to make some horrible life decisions. I also know I had doubts and fears if I was right or if it was 'mr. mind' overtaking me telling me it was a cult. Like Regan in the Exorcist, had Mr. Mind possessed me and won? ( I'll bet there are premies out there reading this nodding knowingly)

Erika, I liked Katie, Bin's, and esp. Brian's posts to you better. I suppose like Jim when I responded I was questioning your sincerity. It seemed like you were doing a little backpedaling. It is like nails on a chalkboard for me when premies say we left because 'WE' misinterpeted Rawat. Or, we never understood to begin with, or we didn't try hard enough.
Also, I can't stand the misunderstanding crap and the hindu crap where Rawat tries to BLAME everyone around him for frankly everything and anything that goes wrong. How stupid does a person have to be, there is no organization I know of where one person has more power than Rawat. If he didn't like something all he had to do was say so, and people would have fallen all over eachother to fix it. He was at the top, he had the power, and it was mostly his responsibility. And where, ever, can anyone show me an example of a time Rawat took responsibility for a mistake, acknowledged he made one, or god forbid apologized. I have never seen it as a former peon premie, and the X rated have made it clear that he was an experted at blaming others for his own errors.

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Date: Sat, Mar 17, 2001 at 21:35:34 (GMT)
From: Francesca
Email: None
To: Katie H.
Subject: Bravo again Susan! n/t
Message:
bravo bravo bravissimo
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Date: Sat, Mar 17, 2001 at 22:12:39 (GMT)
From: Joe
Email: None
To: Francesca
Subject: I also wanted to say that post was great (nt)
Message:
nt
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Date: Sat, Mar 17, 2001 at 22:18:12 (GMT)
From: Richard
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: Me as well, Susan
Message:
Your comment at the end as an advocate for the other human beings in this world, together with what Donner said and seconded by Guy Rollins about extending a hand to others strikes a very deep chord. Many of us began this journey with M to help humanity and that passion we had (and still have) got redirected to M himself. What better way to continue the journey than by helping one another.
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Date: Sun, Mar 18, 2001 at 02:09:09 (GMT)
From: Moldy Warp
Email: None
To: Susan
Subject: Bravo from me too nt
Message:
X
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Date: Sun, Mar 18, 2001 at 18:54:40 (GMT)
From: Susan
Email: None
To: Moldy Warp et al
Subject: thanks to all who posted nice notes to me
Message:
It felt really good to hear you liked what I was saying. I am afraid I could have done better with the next round, but all of you were so much more eloquent and I am glad of it.
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Date: Sun, Mar 18, 2001 at 19:45:02 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Susan
Subject: Yes, but watch out for ego (nt)
Message:
dddddddd
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