Forum V: Archive
Compiled: Wed, Mar 21, 2001 at 03:56:40 (GMT)
From: Mar 16, 2001 To: Mar 20, 2001 Page: 3 Of: 5


Roger eDrek -:- Again, does anyone know Patty Stoneseipher? -:- Sat, Mar 17, 2001 at 21:11:07 (GMT)
__ Forum Admin -:- Correction to Roger's Assertion -:- Sat, Mar 17, 2001 at 22:37:42 (GMT)
__ __ Roger eDrek -:- Oh, sh!t, I screwed up again didn't I? Sorry! -:- Sat, Mar 17, 2001 at 22:44:44 (GMT)
__ __ __ Jim -:- 'Sorry'? This isn't the first time, Drek, is it? -:- Sat, Mar 17, 2001 at 22:57:31 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ your friend janet -:- here's your whip and fishnets. rack is over there. -:- Sun, Mar 18, 2001 at 08:33:27 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Jim -:- WHAT?!! I knew that! -:- Sun, Mar 18, 2001 at 18:54:21 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ TED Farkel -:- Go easy on Mr.eDrek,Jim,he's stressed... -:- Sat, Mar 17, 2001 at 23:50:05 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Roger eDrek -:- I can't help it. They've drugged me -:- Sat, Mar 17, 2001 at 23:21:39 (GMT)
__ YrReG -:- A who? a Pattie Stonesniffer, is she Irish?? -:- Sat, Mar 17, 2001 at 21:32:24 (GMT)
__ __ Roger eDrek -:- A who? a Pattie Stonesniffer, is she Irish?? -:- Sat, Mar 17, 2001 at 22:10:47 (GMT)
__ __ __ Whistler's Mother -:- Are you sure it's not spelled Stonecipher? -:- Sat, Mar 17, 2001 at 22:16:52 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Roger eDrek -:- Just go to this link to find Patty and Bob Dobbs -:- Sat, Mar 17, 2001 at 22:27:49 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Whistler's Migraine -:- Just go to this link to find Patty and Bob Dobbs -:- Sat, Mar 17, 2001 at 22:35:05 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Roger eDrek -:- Yes, Bob Dobbs Cult of SubGenius and this... -:- Sat, Mar 17, 2001 at 22:47:59 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Selene -:- hey that was MY bob -:- Sat, Mar 17, 2001 at 23:02:24 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Roger eDrek -:- Selene, I hope that you aren't involved in this... -:- Sat, Mar 17, 2001 at 23:11:54 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Selene -:- I know nothing -:- Sat, Mar 17, 2001 at 23:14:54 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Roger eDrek -:- Ok, just keep it that way, ok? -:- Sat, Mar 17, 2001 at 23:23:00 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Whistler's Whistle -:- Don't tell me that ...... -:- Sat, Mar 17, 2001 at 22:57:14 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Roger eDrek -:- My mistake - Patty Stoneseifer -:- Sat, Mar 17, 2001 at 22:25:04 (GMT)
__ __ Selene -:- A who? a Pattie Stonesniffer, is she Irish?? -:- Sat, Mar 17, 2001 at 21:46:14 (GMT)

Chuck Sprague -:- ''Evolution'' vs ''Revisionism'' -:- Sat, Mar 17, 2001 at 20:46:07 (GMT)
__ Erika -:- ''Evolution'' vs ''Revisionism'' -:- Sun, Mar 18, 2001 at 06:01:39 (GMT)
__ __ Katie H. -:- acknowledging and apologizing - YES, it would have -:- Sun, Mar 18, 2001 at 18:54:40 (GMT)
__ __ __ Chuck Sprague -:- Katie, the letter IS still online, link is here... -:- Sun, Mar 18, 2001 at 19:25:01 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Katie H. -:- Thanks, Chuck! (nt) -:- Sun, Mar 18, 2001 at 19:29:54 (GMT)
__ __ Chuck Sprague -:- ''Evolution'' vs ''Revisionism'' -:- Sun, Mar 18, 2001 at 10:54:41 (GMT)
__ __ __ Jim -:- Excellent, Chuck, just excellent (nt) -:- Sun, Mar 18, 2001 at 20:04:56 (GMT)
__ __ Pat Conlon -:- if he did aknowledge and apologize, would anyone -:- Sun, Mar 18, 2001 at 10:30:08 (GMT)
__ __ __ Francesca -:- Pat, Erika, me too ditto n/t -:- Sun, Mar 18, 2001 at 19:13:36 (GMT)
__ __ Jim ;/ -:- What? You think you can ask US questions?? -:- Sun, Mar 18, 2001 at 06:24:05 (GMT)
__ la-ex -:- Jim's going to call you a PLANT, if you don't... -:- Sat, Mar 17, 2001 at 23:31:47 (GMT)
__ __ Jim :) -:- Where? Where is it!?? (nt) -:- Sat, Mar 17, 2001 at 23:34:51 (GMT)
__ __ __ G -:- MOM (the Mole) also wrote 'loose' -:- Sun, Mar 18, 2001 at 01:29:36 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Jim :) -:- Good recon, G. Let's retreat to the barn! (nt) -:- Sun, Mar 18, 2001 at 03:55:36 (GMT)
__ Dermot -:- Thanks Charles...good post (nt) -:- Sat, Mar 17, 2001 at 20:55:22 (GMT)
__ __ Chuck Sprague -:- Thanks Dermot, I hope Erika reads this... -:- Sat, Mar 17, 2001 at 22:27:03 (GMT)
__ __ __ Pat Conlon -:- Joe, ''revisionism v evolution'' from inactive -:- Sun, Mar 18, 2001 at 03:15:14 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Connie -:- ''revisionism v evolution'' is active -:- Sun, Mar 18, 2001 at 03:56:58 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Chuck Sprague -:- ''just passively listening for a decade...'' -:- Sun, Mar 18, 2001 at 19:54:36 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Bryn -:- Frog image perceptive. Excellent.Thanks.(nt) -:- Sun, Mar 18, 2001 at 13:21:31 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Pat Conlon -:- Connie, I had not heard the frog story but it's -:- Sun, Mar 18, 2001 at 05:48:25 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ JHB -:- Pat, this is a big deal isn't it? -:- Mon, Mar 19, 2001 at 00:31:43 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Pat Conlon -:- John B, yes it is a big deal -:- Mon, Mar 19, 2001 at 01:34:24 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Michael Dettmers -:- Great analogy about the frog, Connie (nt) -:- Sun, Mar 18, 2001 at 04:20:38 (GMT)

Susan -:- Answers from Donner (bringing to top) -:- Sat, Mar 17, 2001 at 20:40:49 (GMT)
__ Susan -:- here they are oops... -:- Sat, Mar 17, 2001 at 20:42:44 (GMT)
__ __ AJW -:- Thanks Mike. -:- Sun, Mar 18, 2001 at 13:20:42 (GMT)
__ __ Jim -:- Thanks for all that, Donner -:- Sat, Mar 17, 2001 at 22:53:38 (GMT)
__ __ __ janet -:- dettmers-you're staying! jim's drunk! -:- Sun, Mar 18, 2001 at 09:33:53 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Francesca -:- janet I love having you here! LOLs :--P n/t -:- Sun, Mar 18, 2001 at 19:11:56 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Pat Conlon -:- Pauline's selling a kidney so janet can come to -:- Sun, Mar 18, 2001 at 19:41:43 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Jim -:- That is one fucking beautiful emoticom! -:- Sun, Mar 18, 2001 at 18:24:56 (GMT)
__ __ __ Michael Dettmers -:- Humm...! -:- Sat, Mar 17, 2001 at 23:07:10 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Marianne -:- No paper drawing for me -:- Sun, Mar 18, 2001 at 10:24:30 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Jim -:- Do I own dirty work? Well I guess I have a little -:- Sun, Mar 18, 2001 at 18:39:25 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Marianne -:- Hear, hear -:- Sun, Mar 18, 2001 at 20:20:01 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ janet -:- you noticed, huh? he thinks he is. hahahaha. -:- Sun, Mar 18, 2001 at 09:37:22 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Richard -:- Dettmers, Donner, Rollins question -:- Sat, Mar 17, 2001 at 23:24:23 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ donner -:- Dettmers, Donner, Rollins question -:- Sun, Mar 18, 2001 at 03:27:01 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Michael Dettmers -:- Dettmers, Donner, Rollins question -:- Sun, Mar 18, 2001 at 00:27:22 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ guy rollins -:- Dettmers, Donner, Rollins question -:- Sat, Mar 17, 2001 at 23:55:43 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Richard -:- Dettmers, Guy - thanks -:- Sun, Mar 18, 2001 at 01:11:45 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Richard -:- Guy, sorry about the lingo -:- Sun, Mar 18, 2001 at 00:04:12 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Katie H. -:- PWK=Person with Knowledge -:- Sun, Mar 18, 2001 at 00:02:26 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Richard -:- PAM = Premie Around Maharaji /nt -:- Sun, Mar 18, 2001 at 00:05:45 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Katie -:- PAM = Person Around Maharaji -:- Sun, Mar 18, 2001 at 00:08:32 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ guy rollins -:- PAM = Person Around Maharaji -:- Sun, Mar 18, 2001 at 00:54:26 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Katie -:- you got it! -:- Sun, Mar 18, 2001 at 03:26:35 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ janet -:- OT=subject off topic(not gmj dish)...nt -:- Sun, Mar 18, 2001 at 09:44:13 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Katie -:- Just realized you probably know all this! nt -:- Sun, Mar 18, 2001 at 03:41:23 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Katie H. -:- Michael Dettmers, a personal post to you -:- Sat, Mar 17, 2001 at 23:21:00 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Michael Dettmers -:- Thanks -:- Sat, Mar 17, 2001 at 23:30:51 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Katie H. -:- You're welcome -:- Sat, Mar 17, 2001 at 23:37:07 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Michael Dettmers -:- Oh no! -:- Sat, Mar 17, 2001 at 23:48:31 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Katie H. -:- Oh no! is right -:- Sat, Mar 17, 2001 at 23:57:11 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Jim -:- Who ME?? As Bal Bhagwan Ji use to say -:- Sat, Mar 17, 2001 at 23:14:40 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Richard -:- Hey Jim, let's just let Bahgwans be Bahgwans /nt -:- Sat, Mar 17, 2001 at 23:26:17 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Jim :) -:- Cute but, Richard, let's face it, that's a pun -:- Sun, Mar 18, 2001 at 04:30:19 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Richard (|:-)[~~]X -:- Very punny Jim -:- Sun, Mar 18, 2001 at 07:31:53 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ janet -:- love puns, hate clowns. watch out. now i know! -:- Sun, Mar 18, 2001 at 09:51:07 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Jim -:- FA - Could you please sweep this post for threats? -:- Sun, Mar 18, 2001 at 18:48:08 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Susan -:- Bozophobiacs Unite -:- Sun, Mar 18, 2001 at 15:11:38 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Jim -:- I would LOL if I wasn't half asleep -:- Sun, Mar 18, 2001 at 18:51:44 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Francesca -:- I love puns, and clowns. Homey don't play dat n/t -:- Sun, Mar 18, 2001 at 07:26:02 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Monmot -:- LOL!!! Touche......nt -:- Sat, Mar 17, 2001 at 23:10:25 (GMT)
__ __ Katie H. -:- Thanks, Michael Donner -:- Sat, Mar 17, 2001 at 22:38:03 (GMT)
__ __ Jerry -:- Thank you, Mike -:- Sat, Mar 17, 2001 at 22:24:55 (GMT)
__ __ guy rollins -:- In response to your Answers: -:- Sat, Mar 17, 2001 at 21:15:16 (GMT)
__ __ __ Katie H. -:- I agree with you, Guy -:- Sat, Mar 17, 2001 at 22:46:10 (GMT)
__ __ __ Joe -:- Question, Guy -:- Sat, Mar 17, 2001 at 22:10:04 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ guy rollins -:- Question, Guy -:- Sun, Mar 18, 2001 at 00:20:55 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Michael Dettmers -:- The 707 -:- Sun, Mar 18, 2001 at 01:11:14 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Moldy Warp -:- Hans Jayanti 77 - different travelling styles! -:- Sun, Mar 18, 2001 at 02:38:50 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ observer -:- aircraft accident study -:- Sun, Mar 18, 2001 at 02:37:26 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ guy rollins -:- The 707 -:- Sun, Mar 18, 2001 at 01:30:41 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Alan Fenstermacher -:- The 707 - General Projects Budgeting Process -:- Sun, Mar 18, 2001 at 03:18:13 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Michael Dettmers -:- The 707 - General Projects Budgeting Process -:- Sun, Mar 18, 2001 at 04:09:22 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Michael Dettmers -:- I think it was about a year later (nt) -:- Sun, Mar 18, 2001 at 01:37:34 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Richard -:- One more question, Guy -:- Sat, Mar 17, 2001 at 22:23:35 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ guy rollins -:- One more question, Guy -:- Sun, Mar 18, 2001 at 00:27:57 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Joe -:- Okay, one more.... -:- Sat, Mar 17, 2001 at 22:27:07 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ guy rollins -:- Okay, one more.... -:- Sun, Mar 18, 2001 at 00:33:56 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Michael Dettmers -:- More on the 707 -:- Sun, Mar 18, 2001 at 01:30:23 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Joy -:- I Have A Quick ? re the 707 -:- Sun, Mar 18, 2001 at 02:27:39 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Michael Dettmers -:- Quick Ans. re the 707 -:- Sun, Mar 18, 2001 at 02:44:55 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ bill burke -:- NHD707 -:- Sun, Mar 18, 2001 at 06:39:12 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Michael Dettmers -:- NHD707 -:- Sun, Mar 18, 2001 at 16:29:26 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Cynthia -:- WOW bill.... -:- Sun, Mar 18, 2001 at 15:22:37 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ bill -:- Cynthia, -:- Mon, Mar 19, 2001 at 04:26:02 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Richard -:- And one more.... -:- Sat, Mar 17, 2001 at 22:30:32 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ guy rollins -:- And one more.... -:- Sun, Mar 18, 2001 at 00:39:56 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Cynthia -:- The 707 at DECA -:- Sat, Mar 17, 2001 at 22:51:22 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Francesca -:- Bad mood -:- Mon, Mar 19, 2001 at 03:00:54 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ guy rollins -:- The 707 at DECA -:- Sun, Mar 18, 2001 at 00:48:48 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Cynthia -:- Guy and Michael, Thank you for your exchange... -:- Sun, Mar 18, 2001 at 02:24:35 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ guy rollins -:- Guy and Michael, Thank you for your exchange... -:- Sun, Mar 18, 2001 at 06:17:08 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Connie -:- Cynthia, just want to say -:- Sun, Mar 18, 2001 at 03:19:43 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Cynthia -:- Connie, just want to say -:- Sun, Mar 18, 2001 at 20:14:15 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Connie -:- Agree a hundred percent that -:- Sun, Mar 18, 2001 at 21:19:02 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Francesca -:- Your input is valuable -:- Mon, Mar 19, 2001 at 03:06:19 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Thelma -:- Connie, ignore Pat. He's a prim old church lady NT -:- Sun, Mar 18, 2001 at 23:31:45 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Katie H. -:- Connie, your posts are great! -:- Sun, Mar 18, 2001 at 22:51:59 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Pat Conlon -:- Thelma's getting all the womyn fired up because -:- Sun, Mar 18, 2001 at 23:33:31 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Connie -:- well I did, I'm still posting, thanks heaps nt -:- Sun, Mar 18, 2001 at 22:07:53 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Richard -:- Connie - ignore Pat - I love your posts nt -:- Sun, Mar 18, 2001 at 21:48:02 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Richard -:- Cynthia you said 'Maharaji ridiculting you' -:- Sun, Mar 18, 2001 at 03:27:58 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Cynthia -:- Richard--Good Catch... -:- Sun, Mar 18, 2001 at 15:28:13 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Pat Conlon -:- Have you noticed how many hilariously -:- Sun, Mar 18, 2001 at 18:33:21 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Cynthia -:- Pat: Ridiculting was a good one.... -:- Sun, Mar 18, 2001 at 19:57:06 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Pat Conlon -:- Cynthia and ''exited utterances'' -:- Sun, Mar 18, 2001 at 20:54:31 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Cynthia -:- Hi Pat -:- Mon, Mar 19, 2001 at 01:27:28 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Richard -:- Thanks for answers Guy /nt -:- Sun, Mar 18, 2001 at 01:04:40 (GMT)
__ __ Richard -:- Donner - thank you for some answers -:- Sat, Mar 17, 2001 at 21:08:38 (GMT)
__ __ Dermot -:- Thanks michael for the time and effort -:- Sat, Mar 17, 2001 at 21:03:57 (GMT)
__ __ __ donner -:- guy rollins, there are some -:- Sat, Mar 17, 2001 at 22:41:14 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ guy rollins -:- guy rollins, there are some -:- Sat, Mar 17, 2001 at 23:49:13 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Joe -:- Hey Donner, -:- Sat, Mar 17, 2001 at 22:52:29 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ bill burke -:- Miami vices-the drug/fed's/premies connection -:- Sun, Mar 18, 2001 at 07:21:41 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ donner -:- Hey Donner, -:- Sun, Mar 18, 2001 at 03:47:16 (GMT)

La-ex -:- Margaret Singer on Cults..Part#4 (Yowser!) -:- Sat, Mar 17, 2001 at 16:55:20 (GMT)
__ Mercedes -:- Margaret Singer on Cults..Part#4 (Yowser!) -:- Sat, Mar 17, 2001 at 18:05:42 (GMT)
__ Francesca -:- Yowser is right -- missed your first thread -(OT) -:- Sat, Mar 17, 2001 at 17:40:37 (GMT)

Jim -:- Erika deserves a lot of credit -:- Sat, Mar 17, 2001 at 16:40:45 (GMT)
__ Erika -:- SOMEBODY TAKE A PICTURE -:- Sat, Mar 17, 2001 at 23:02:40 (GMT)
__ __ suchabanana -:- 'scuse me while I kiss the sky... (mt -:- Sun, Mar 18, 2001 at 21:34:07 (GMT)
__ __ janet -:- why not go up and see him yourself? can you? -:- Sun, Mar 18, 2001 at 11:12:03 (GMT)
__ __ moldy warp -:- M won't respond to your letter -:- Sun, Mar 18, 2001 at 01:57:04 (GMT)
__ __ __ Jim :) -:- Yeah, but you're not Erika, are you? -:- Sun, Mar 18, 2001 at 03:58:53 (GMT)
__ __ __ Katie -:- Has ANYONE ever gotten a response from M? -:- Sun, Mar 18, 2001 at 03:40:04 (GMT)
__ __ JHB -:- This is weird - Erika, Are you Latvian? -:- Sat, Mar 17, 2001 at 23:23:04 (GMT)
__ __ __ Erika -:- This is weird - Erika, Are you Latvian? -:- Sun, Mar 18, 2001 at 05:21:23 (GMT)
__ __ Jim -:- You've heard of Fisherman's Friend? -:- Sat, Mar 17, 2001 at 23:09:18 (GMT)
__ __ __ Erika -:- You've heard of Fisherman's Friend? -:- Sun, Mar 18, 2001 at 05:22:35 (GMT)
__ __ __ Richard -:- Jim, would you like to join EPO men's drum circle? -:- Sat, Mar 17, 2001 at 23:56:33 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Jim :) -:- Why, sure. I'll bring an eagle feather (nt) -:- Sun, Mar 18, 2001 at 00:24:40 (GMT)
__ Joe -:- Right, but I hope Erika doesn't expect much -:- Sat, Mar 17, 2001 at 18:28:22 (GMT)
__ __ Marianne -:- Height of presumptuousness -:- Sat, Mar 17, 2001 at 19:46:09 (GMT)
__ __ __ Susan -:- Erika's proccess -:- Sat, Mar 17, 2001 at 20:03:56 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Elan Vital -:- You stole this line from Elan Vital -:- Sat, Mar 17, 2001 at 22:32:27 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Pat Conlon -:- Erika's proccess - Susan's voice of reason -:- Sat, Mar 17, 2001 at 20:09:01 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Dermot -:- letters sent letters received -:- Sat, Mar 17, 2001 at 20:28:23 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ moldy warp -:- letters sent letters received -:- Sun, Mar 18, 2001 at 02:00:21 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Marianne -:- I don't think I'm browbeating -:- Sat, Mar 17, 2001 at 20:14:19 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Pat Conlon -:- Hey, Marianne stop raining on my parade -:- Sat, Mar 17, 2001 at 20:20:25 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Marianne -:- Oh Patty/Paddy Boy! -:- Sat, Mar 17, 2001 at 20:25:25 (GMT)
__ __ Francesca -:- yes, Sandy has gained my respect over time n/t -:- Sat, Mar 17, 2001 at 18:34:22 (GMT)
__ __ __ Richard -:- Sandy has gained my respect over time - ditto n/t -:- Sat, Mar 17, 2001 at 19:35:06 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Pat Conlon -:- Sandy has gained my respect over time - ditto n/t -:- Sat, Mar 17, 2001 at 19:47:52 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Pat Conlon -:- And so have Mel Bourne and Deputy Dog n/t -:- Sat, Mar 17, 2001 at 19:48:56 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ YrReG -:- I'm developing feelings of esteem for Djuro -:- Sat, Mar 17, 2001 at 21:52:46 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Thelma -:- I'm developing feelings of esteem for Catweasle -:- Sun, Mar 18, 2001 at 00:28:53 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Francesca -:- But if you like Mili, your are a PREMIE PLANT! n/t -:- Sun, Mar 18, 2001 at 07:44:53 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Thelma -:- But if you like Mili, your are a fruit, nut or -:- Sun, Mar 18, 2001 at 10:35:16 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ YrReG -:- Purina Ciao -:- Sat, Mar 17, 2001 at 20:08:04 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Pat Conlon -:- So rub my nose in it, Gerry -:- Sat, Mar 17, 2001 at 20:11:22 (GMT)
__ Pat Conlon -:- Erika deserves a lot of credit. Yes, Jim -:- Sat, Mar 17, 2001 at 18:19:43 (GMT)
__ Francesca -:- I only hope that Erika reads all of the stuff ... -:- Sat, Mar 17, 2001 at 17:31:39 (GMT)
__ __ Erika -:- I only hope that Erika reads all of the stuff ... -:- Sun, Mar 18, 2001 at 05:40:03 (GMT)
__ __ __ Francesca -:- Thanks for responding -:- Sun, Mar 18, 2001 at 07:54:54 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Erika -:- Thanks for responding -:- Sun, Mar 18, 2001 at 08:04:09 (GMT)
__ Richard -:- Erika deserves a lot of credit -:- Sat, Mar 17, 2001 at 16:52:31 (GMT)
__ __ Her teeth are straight -:- her hair is shiny; she can tell all the ex-prems -:- Sat, Mar 17, 2001 at 18:35:23 (GMT)
__ __ __ Erika -:- her hair is shiny; she can tell all the ex-prems -:- Sun, Mar 18, 2001 at 05:48:32 (GMT)
__ __ __ Jim -:- High five on that one, brother Gerry -:- Sat, Mar 17, 2001 at 22:42:45 (GMT)
__ __ __ Pat Conlon -:- Ouch, Gerry -:- Sat, Mar 17, 2001 at 19:56:08 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Lesley -:- Be kind to me too, Pat -:- Sat, Mar 17, 2001 at 21:19:07 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Pat Conlon -:- Lesley you must have been posting this while -:- Sat, Mar 17, 2001 at 21:27:28 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Lesley -:- Oh well said, Pat, and much appreciated xox nt -:- Sat, Mar 17, 2001 at 21:33:41 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Lesley -:- Pat, just found your post in the inactive -:- Sat, Mar 17, 2001 at 21:43:06 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Pat Conlon -:- Lesley my two best PWK friends are potters -:- Sat, Mar 17, 2001 at 22:07:55 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ gerry -:- Healing Balm to you and all longtimers, coming in -:- Sat, Mar 17, 2001 at 20:37:18 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ gerry -:- Ouch, Gerry -:- Sat, Mar 17, 2001 at 20:37:05 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Selene -:- me too Pat don't feel bad -:- Sat, Mar 17, 2001 at 20:19:44 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Pat Conlon -:- Loyalty, Selene -:- Sat, Mar 17, 2001 at 20:22:28 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Selene -:- Loyalty I wish (for me I mean) -:- Sat, Mar 17, 2001 at 21:49:51 (GMT)


Date: Sat, Mar 17, 2001 at 21:11:07 (GMT)
From: Roger eDrek
Email: drek@oz.net
To: Everyone
Subject: Again, does anyone know Patty Stoneseipher?
Message:
I think the FA might have deleted my last post asking for information on this PAM.

This is serious business.

Anybody know Patty Stoneseipher from Seattle or the L.A. area.

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Date: Sat, Mar 17, 2001 at 22:37:42 (GMT)
From: Forum Admin
Email: None
To: Roger eDrek
Subject: Correction to Roger's Assertion
Message:
Roger,

Your original post, dated 13th March, is still sitting unanswered in Inactive.

Of course, we could delete it, but that would just reinforce the belief that we are fascists:-)

Forum Admin

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Date: Sat, Mar 17, 2001 at 22:44:44 (GMT)
From: Roger eDrek
Email: drek@oz.net
To: Forum Admin
Subject: Oh, sh!t, I screwed up again didn't I? Sorry!
Message:
I'm sorry oh great exalted FA. I know that the original on as you say is there in the Inactive. I just thought that I wrote another one yesterday because it slipped off the radar screen.

It might have been that I got distracted and never pressed the Submit button. Or I wasn't in a submissive mood and I didn't like being told to submit.

I'm sorry. It won't happen again where I say bad things about the FA. And I'm going to punish myself by choking my chicken now.

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Date: Sat, Mar 17, 2001 at 22:57:31 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Roger eDrek
Subject: 'Sorry'? This isn't the first time, Drek, is it?
Message:
Drek, how many times now have you made a mistake of one kind or another here? Once? Twice? Ha! Try three or four times, bud!

Marianne, could you please draw up some papers for Mr. Drek too? Usual terms, maybe leave out paragraphs 38 to 52. I can't see him understanding, let alone abiding by them.

Drek, we'll need your Smartcard too. I'm sure you understand.

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Date: Sun, Mar 18, 2001 at 08:33:27 (GMT)
From: your friend janet
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: here's your whip and fishnets. rack is over there.
Message:
and its e-m-o-t-i-c-o-N

emote--icon

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Date: Sun, Mar 18, 2001 at 18:54:21 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: your friend janet
Subject: WHAT?!! I knew that!
Message:
Emoticom? Did I say that? Well, I didn't mean it. Everyone knows it's whatever it is. Emoticon, is it? You mean it's not emoticom, as in 'Emotional Communication'? Yeah, well, like I said, I knew that. Of course I did. You're not telling me anything new, don't think you are.
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Date: Sat, Mar 17, 2001 at 23:50:05 (GMT)
From: TED Farkel
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Go easy on Mr.eDrek,Jim,he's stressed...
Message:
Mr.eDrek is working double time at that Trancas Market at the bottom of the hill.
He's fixin up his trailer with that foam mat for ole TED's visit to the Malibu Palace, so cut him some slack, will ya?

He's a hard workin dude, and I keep tellin him to come on down to the TRAC Center, kick back and synchronize with the boys over a video and a foamy or two, but he's busy catchin a darshan buzz at Trancas...

Now what's this'big story' you're workin on Mr.eDrek?
Anything to do with Mr. Rawat?

Jus wonderin,
TED Farkel


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Date: Sat, Mar 17, 2001 at 23:21:39 (GMT)
From: Roger eDrek
Email: drek@oz.net
To: Jim
Subject: I can't help it. They've drugged me
Message:
I knew that I shouldn't have messed with these people, but how could I not - I'm Roger eDrek.

Look what happened with the Michael Dettmers expose. Ok, I was more than just a little wrong about a few things, but we're all one happy family now, aren't we?

But, this is big. Really, really big.

The current NASDAQ slump is nothing if what I think is happening is happening.

Or else... or else...

Or else we're going to see the biggest super merger of super giant egos ever and peace will reign all over the planet just in time before the child crawls into the fire and the lights go out in California for the last time and we all have to sit around the campfire at night with no Internet or TVs for entertainment and we'd start giving each other satsang to pass the time and we'd start sucking down our own nose drippings because of the hunger and pressing on our third eyes with sharp sticks and just trying to remember how to breathe because we've grown so complacent and lame from watching too much professional wrestling on tv and our sex drive was overdriven from thinking about Puffy Combs getting off, but Jennifer Lopez breaking up with him and how G.W. Bush was going to be the Environmental President and how...

Whew boy, I forgot to breathe there for a little too long and my head got a little light or something, didn't it?

I'd better go lie down or something

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Date: Sat, Mar 17, 2001 at 21:32:24 (GMT)
From: YrReG
Email: pronounced 'urge'
To: Roger eDrek
Subject: A who? a Pattie Stonesniffer, is she Irish??
Message:
Hmm this IS serious. Did you try the NCIC?
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Date: Sat, Mar 17, 2001 at 22:10:47 (GMT)
From: Roger eDrek
Email: drek@oz.net
To: YrReG
Subject: A who? a Pattie Stonesniffer, is she Irish??
Message:
(Some of the following is purely fictional and there is no connection to any private persons living or dead. The people referred to by name or implied are, indeed, public persons.

Yes, thanks for your concern.

This IS serious.

We are probably talking about a person who is connected to one of the richest and most influential and powerful people in the whole world and the fraudulent Lord of the Universe, Guru Maharaj Ji. There's plenty of high wheeling and dealling in this escapade that's probably taking place on huge mega-yachts and on Gulfstream G4s or G5s. Both primary suspects are known to have and fly in such corporate luxury aircraft.

I'm waiting for a reply from NCIC now. I've gotten a report back from WACIC and it indicates that the suspect was given a speeding ticket in 1999 in the 160th block of Bel Red Road in Redmond, Washington. The car being driven was a black 1999 Porsche Boxter.

Mr. YrReG, do have anyone at InterPol that you can get in touch with? And can I ask you to contact me through my personal email with the results. Why don't you use the code name of 'Whistler', though.

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Date: Sat, Mar 17, 2001 at 22:16:52 (GMT)
From: Whistler's Mother
Email: None
To: Roger eDrek
Subject: Are you sure it's not spelled Stonecipher?
Message:
A google search pops up that name with that spelling. There's a union rep named Patty Stonecipher.
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Date: Sat, Mar 17, 2001 at 22:27:49 (GMT)
From: Roger eDrek
Email: drek@oz.net
To: Whistler's Mother
Subject: Just go to this link to find Patty and Bob Dobbs
Message:
go here to see Patty Stoneseifer and Bob Dobbs
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Date: Sat, Mar 17, 2001 at 22:35:05 (GMT)
From: Whistler's Migraine
Email: None
To: Roger eDrek
Subject: Just go to this link to find Patty and Bob Dobbs
Message:
Think I'll stick with the union rep version. Isn't Bob Dobbs the cult leader of the Church of the Subgenius? I've seen that innocuous smiling face somewhere.
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Date: Sat, Mar 17, 2001 at 22:47:59 (GMT)
From: Roger eDrek
Email: drek@oz.net
To: Whistler's Migraine
Subject: Yes, Bob Dobbs Cult of SubGenius and this...
Message:
remember this

But, don't get too far off the trail with this Bob Dobbs thing. It's a dead-end.

Follow the money.

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Date: Sat, Mar 17, 2001 at 23:02:24 (GMT)
From: Selene
Email: None
To: Roger eDrek
Subject: hey that was MY bob
Message:
figures.
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Date: Sat, Mar 17, 2001 at 23:11:54 (GMT)
From: Roger eDrek
Email: drek@oz.net
To: Selene
Subject: Selene, I hope that you aren't involved in this...
Message:
Let's see here...

Selene and Bob.

Hmmm, Selene do you prefer Windoze or Eunuchs?

Your answer will indicate the amount of involvement you have in this scandal.

P.S. Good to see ya jump in on this.

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Date: Sat, Mar 17, 2001 at 23:14:54 (GMT)
From: Selene
Email: None
To: Roger eDrek
Subject: I know nothing
Message:
Bob was my Oracle. I believe it runs on both platforms.
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Date: Sat, Mar 17, 2001 at 23:23:00 (GMT)
From: Roger eDrek
Email: drek@oz.net
To: Selene
Subject: Ok, just keep it that way, ok?
Message:
ha ha! We're on a roll...

Happy St. Patrick's day, lassie!

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Date: Sat, Mar 17, 2001 at 22:57:14 (GMT)
From: Whistler's Whistle
Email: None
To: Roger eDrek
Subject: Don't tell me that ......
Message:
you gave the name 'BOB' to Patty and she ripped you off???? Possible money there. I await breathlessly...
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Date: Sat, Mar 17, 2001 at 22:25:04 (GMT)
From: Roger eDrek
Email: drek@oz.net
To: Whistler's Mother
Subject: My mistake - Patty Stoneseifer
Message:
imagine that, I screwed up.

Go ahead and put that name in yer search engine.

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Date: Sat, Mar 17, 2001 at 21:46:14 (GMT)
From: Selene
Email: None
To: YrReG
Subject: A who? a Pattie Stonesniffer, is she Irish??
Message:
Soemone needs to tell this important secret being that she is supposed to KISS the blarney stone, not sniff it.
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Date: Sat, Mar 17, 2001 at 20:46:07 (GMT)
From: Chuck Sprague
Email: bctanda@hotmail.com
To: Erika
Subject: ''Evolution'' vs ''Revisionism''
Message:
I wanted to post this below, but that thread is quickly moving into the inactive index.

Erika:

If you have been watching M's videos in recent years I have, surely you know that M. has said many times, that he is more than a ''teacher'', and that he actually can't stand being refered to as a ''teacher'' or ''inspirational speaker''. He has said this many times.

Yet, to the aspirants, this is exactly how he is being pitched to them. Usually by other premies, from Joan Apter describing M. as ''one of many teachers in her life, just another pearl on her string of pearls'', to new premies talking about M. as this great teacher they discovered. They way you talk about him as your teacher, you seem to be buying into this revisionism.

If M. were really just a teacher, do you think he would be having all this controversy and secrecy surrounding him? I can understand how you might choose to see the revisionism as evolution. One of the biggest churchladies on our committee used to say ''doesn't M. have the right to change his mind, just like anyone else?'' I could agree with that, but I would also think that he then has an abligation to explain WHY, to actually say he has changed his mind, and explain why, that he made a mistake, or even that he has ''evolved'', or whatever.

But he has not done this. He has simpley been telling bold face LIES about the past, denying what he had said and putting the blame on others whenever he can. People remember the things he has said, and he has done much to damage his credibility by insulting us with his bold faced lies about the past. If he can lie about what he said, what else is he lying to us about? All this secrecy about information surrounding him, only begs the question, ''What does he not want us to know?'' And as someone who has been donating money to help M. spread his ''teaching'', aren't you the least bit concerned about the secrecy surrounding the finances? All of my inqueries as a doner for the past 20 years have led to NOTHING. They insist there is nothing to hide, yet they reveal nothing.

Joe has asked you some very good questions, I hope you will take the time to try and answer them, even if you can only say that you don't know. I know you say that practicing Knowledge has helped you, and I'm sure you don't want to spoil that experience. I know the reason many premies have stayed involved so long is because they were getting something out of it, something that many of the premies who left years ago don't understand. Not all premies stay because of fear, most premies are not masochists. The ''good parts'' can keep you going for quite a while. I think though that there is a time where we have to look at things completely honestly, separate the good from the bad, learn from it, keep the good, and move on.

I don't want to try to tell you what to think or do, or 'ruin' your good experience. I just hope you will see, as you read more here, that the truth always holds up to scrutiny, and that the good things you have experienced were always with you, and the only things you may loose by learning here is your illusions. You won't loose anything real. Many of us have been able to keep the ''good parts''.

Best wishes in your journey,

- Chuck Sprague

aka: Charles S.

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Date: Sun, Mar 18, 2001 at 06:01:39 (GMT)
From: Erika
Email: None
To: Chuck Sprague
Subject: ''Evolution'' vs ''Revisionism''
Message:
Chuck,

I completely agree with you, and Joe, that M needs to acknowledge the evolution of his own understanding about his identity and role in the practice of K, and to apologize for any confusion that has caused.

But here's a question -- if he did aknowledge and apologize, would anyone here accept it as sincere? I get the feeling the answer is no...I think most folks here are as committed to their view of M as total asshole as they used to committed to their view of him as 'lord.'

In fact, here's another question. Susan insisted to me the other day that my behavior on this site (e.g., questioning M's 'perfectness') is 'forbidden' in the 'cult.' Consider: is saying anything positive about M 'forbidden' in the EPO 'cult'?

Respectfully,
Erika

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Date: Sun, Mar 18, 2001 at 18:54:40 (GMT)
From: Katie H.
Email: None
To: Erika
Subject: acknowledging and apologizing - YES, it would have
Message:
...made a difference!

Hi Erika -

You wrote:
But here's a question -- if he did aknowledge and apologize, would anyone here accept it as sincere? I get the feeling the answer is no...I think most folks here are as committed to their view of M as total asshole as they used to committed to their view of him as 'lord.'

About a year ago, some fence-sitters and ex-premies put an 'Open Letter to Maharaji' on line, and advertised this letter in the Boston Phoenix just prior to an event with Maharaji there. I checked to see if the letter was still on-line, and it's not - perhaps someone can reproduce the text here. It was a very respectful letter, although it did ask some difficult questions about some of the things we are discussing here - especially asking M to clear up the confusion about whether he was divine or not, and to address the closing of the ashrams, and the Jagdeo issue.

At about the same time, Susan asked Michael Dettmers to deliver a letter for her to Maharaji personally. I believe the text to this letter is on line on this site - it concerned the abuse of children by Jagdeo. This was also a respectful letter - not hate mail.

At the time, I spoke to at least three people who were involved in writing the open letter to Maharaji (I was not involved), and I can tell you that it would have made a big difference to them IF Maharaji had acknowledged that letter in any way. Ditto for the letter from Susan. As it happens, he did not even acknowledge either letter personally, let alone apologize. (I think the FAQ on the EV site was written as a sort of response to the Open Letter to Maharaji - and, of course, made the people who wrote the letter feel even MORE unacknowledged - have you ever read that section?)

As a result of this non-answer, several people apparently felt free to speak out on this forum concerning their experiences with Maharaji. This has made a HUGE difference in the credibility of this forum, and in the number of people who appear to be leaving M because of what they have read here.

Personally, I don't think Maharaji is a 'total asshole'. I don't even know him, for one thing. But I have formed certain opinions about him based on his actions, and they are not positive. I was cynical about the idea that he would respond in any way to this open letter, or the letter from Susan, but several people here believed that he might respond to one or both of the letters, and were quite disappointed in him when he did not. Obviously, they didn't think he was a 'total asshole' at the time - although they might think that NOW. In fact, I believe that there are a LOT of people on this site who don't think Maharaji is a total asshole - but they can only give him so many chances to prove the opposite.

If you are planning to speak or write to Maharaji about what you've heard or read on this site, I'd be interested to know if YOU ever get an answer. It's been my experience that he never answers people's letters - even sincere ones written by devotees (plenty of testimony to this on this site). I don't buy the excuse that he doesn't have time - even the President of the US answers some letters personally. So I'd be interested to know if you get a personal response.

Take care,
Katie H.

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Date: Sun, Mar 18, 2001 at 19:25:01 (GMT)
From: Chuck Sprague
Email: bctanda@hotmail.com
To: Katie H.
Subject: Katie, the letter IS still online, link is here...
Message:
The link:

http://www.openlettertomaharaji.org/

It's also called the Maharaji Responsibility Campaign.

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Date: Sun, Mar 18, 2001 at 19:29:54 (GMT)
From: Katie H.
Email: None
To: Chuck Sprague
Subject: Thanks, Chuck! (nt)
Message:
I was typing in 'com' - DUH.
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Date: Sun, Mar 18, 2001 at 10:54:41 (GMT)
From: Chuck Sprague
Email: bctanda@hotmail.com
To: Erika
Subject: ''Evolution'' vs ''Revisionism''
Message:
Erika asked:

But here's a question -- if he did aknowledge and apologize, would anyone here accept it as sincere? I get the feeling the answer is no...I think most folks here are as committed to their view of M as total asshole as they used to committed to their view of him as 'lord.'

An interesting question. I'm sure it would keep some wavering premies from jumping off the fence. But the people here? Many people feel M. has had ample opportunity, time and time again, (most recently with the www.openlettertomaharaji.org offer) to straighten out any confusion over who he is and what he is teaching. He hasn't. Period. He's often said, in aspirant events, that if you don't like what is being said, you can leave. He doesn't seem very interested in answering questions.

He even once complained about being given lists of questions people ask, opining that he often finds the questions people ask boring and unimportant. But one day, he found one, only one question he was really interested in answering. The question was something like, ''Maharaji, what question would you ask YOUR Master if he were still alive?''. Maharaji said he loved that question, because his answer would be, he wouldn't have ANY questions, because he would just SHUT UP and LISTEN!!! He seemed to find that very profound. He repeated that story several times. I'm sure that is what he would like from us. I'm sure that is NOT the kind of ''teacher'' I want. I wouldn't doubt that is what a ''Master'' would want, and I think it is only one of many reasons why progagation is doing so poorly in the west.

But back to your question, would anyone HERE accept it as an apology as sincere? The problem is, that such a gesture, so late in the game, would be greeted with great suspicion. It seems like his financial empire may be colapsing. This push for propagation, and the shakedown of premies for cash, has a certian desparation to it. If he did make an apology anytime soon, I think a great many people here would have trouble accepting it as sincere. It could too easily be seen as a desparate attempt to try ANYTHING to keep the cash drain from continuing. His motive would be suspect. He's already broken so many peoples trust, and lied about so many things, it may be too late.

I personally feel that he is afraid of doing anything that might start a REAL kind of ''Glastnost''. Glastnost was supposed to REFORM the Soviet Union. But once the door was open, it couldn't be closed. Glastnost DESTROYED the Soviet Union. I think M. is afraid the same thing would happen to his organization in the west.

Also, many of the people here have already determined that they no longer NEED a guru, ANY guru. So even if they DID think he was sincere, it might be a moot point. I would imagine if he did make any such gesture, it would be to sway premies like your self from leaving. But I would be suprised if he did make that effort. I guess we shall see.

I also don't want to presume to speak for the others here, there is quite a variety of opinons here - we are really unsynchronized! I'm sure I've said enough, would anyone else on the forum care to add an opinion?

Erika also asked:
In fact, here's another question. Susan insisted to me the other day that my behavior on this site (e.g., questioning M's 'perfectness') is 'forbidden' in the 'cult.' Consider: is saying anything positive about M 'forbidden' in the EPO 'cult'?

Saying anything positive about M. on EPO is not forbidden at all. The title on this forum says ''Anything & Everything about Maharaji and his followers''. I think ''Anything & Everything'' just about covers it. You are familiar with the common joke here, aren't you, that Premies come here to post and give satsang, because they aren't ALLOWED to do it on any of M's sites? Not in real time, and not without being edited.

As for EPO being a cult, lets be serious. It is just a website, with an open forum on it. Period. Being an open forum means, you can say anything positive about Maharaji that you want to say. And people can disagree with you if they want to. Unscripted and unsyncronized. Like the real world. Some people can handle that, some can't.

When you first posted as ''Sezyou', I got the impression that you were shocked and horrified that anyone would think that YOU were, or could be, possibley involved in a CULT, especially a cult like the one you saw described here.

I know I felt that way when I first discovered this site. Connie also said the hardest thing for her to admit to herself was that she had been involved with a cult. I think that is a really difficult concept to take in for current premies. I kinda laughed when you said you thought that some of the premies WERE in a cult, and it was of their own making.

I don't want to stick a label on you or anyone else. And people can belong to cults if they want to. They aren't illegal. Scientology advertises on TV. The Moonies own the Washington Post, and give money to the Republicans. The Catholic Church, IMO, is a very respected cult in the western world. It's not a crime to be in a cult, but it is a shame not to realize you are in one?

Perhaps you can talk critically about M. to your premie friends. Do you really? Good for you. Can you do it at meetings? I was involved in local commitee meetings for the past year. It was made very clear to me that the purpose of the meetings was NOT about critisizing M. Quite the opposite, really. Some people here will tell you they were ''thrown off'' commitees for being too critical, even if it was not about M. specifically. Also, there are plenty of stories here about what has happened to people who have been critical of M. and his organization.

M. said in a propagation video last year, 'Don't offer your critisem, instead, ask 'how can I help?'''

I didn't leave the 'cult' 20 years ago, I left 10 weeks ago. I've been seeing the same videos and broadcasts you have, had been giving money to the 'not-a-cult, not-a-religion, not-a-church' organization like you do. I know that in many ways, it doesn't seem like a cult at all. Many of the churchladies are even nice people, if inflexable. M. says participation is meant to be enjoyable, especially if you are ''syncronized'' and do what M. wants you to do, and especially if you filter some things out. Filtering out things, not indulging 'the doubtmaker' is necessary sometimes, because if you actually did connect all the dots, and see the larger picture, you might find yourself looking at a picture that is not at all what you thought it was, not pretty at all.

I've noticed many of the premies who post here don't answer questions. They come here to say things to us, but not to really talk WITH us about things. I hope you aren't going to fall into that catagory. I've answered your questions. How about answering some of mine?

Best Regards,

- Chuck

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Date: Sun, Mar 18, 2001 at 20:04:56 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Chuck Sprague
Subject: Excellent, Chuck, just excellent (nt)
Message:
fffff
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Date: Sun, Mar 18, 2001 at 10:30:08 (GMT)
From: Pat Conlon
Email: None
To: Erika
Subject: if he did aknowledge and apologize, would anyone
Message:
You asked: ''...if he did aknowledge and apologize, would anyone here accept it as sincere?''

Yes, if he was sincere, I would know he was sincere and I would accept it. Then what? He goes back to being the Master? Not mine. Don't need one. I don't really even have a beef with him other than that he is boring.

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Date: Sun, Mar 18, 2001 at 19:13:36 (GMT)
From: Francesca
Email: None
To: Pat Conlon
Subject: Pat, Erika, me too ditto n/t
Message:
yeah
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Date: Sun, Mar 18, 2001 at 06:24:05 (GMT)
From: Jim ;/
Email: None
To: Erika
Subject: What? You think you can ask US questions??
Message:
But here's a question -- if he did aknowledge and apologize, would anyone here accept it as sincere? I get the feeling the answer is no...I think most folks here are as committed to their view of M as total asshole as they used to committed to their view of him as 'lord.'

That question implies a very, very thin argument. I don't think it's ever an excuse for someont to not apologize that they've just got so much to apologize for there's no guarantee they'll be forgiven. We're not talking plea bargaining rather, ironically, expressions of the heart.

But tell me, Erika, what kind of apology could you ever actually envision anyway? Is it a perfunctory one-off statement, delivered in a revised EV FAQ? Without any dialogue or real-life person-to-person? Honestly, what do you think this man called Rawat is capable of? And what would you settle for?

In fact, here's another question. Susan insisted to me the other day that my behavior on this site (e.g., questioning M's 'perfectness') is 'forbidden' in the 'cult.' Consider: is saying anything positive about M 'forbidden' in the EPO 'cult'?

Hell, no! You got something positive to say about Maharaji, say it. Was he nice to you when you had a chance to hang a bit? Hey, that's nice. What else you got?

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Date: Sat, Mar 17, 2001 at 23:31:47 (GMT)
From: la-ex
Email: None
To: Chuck Sprague
Subject: Jim's going to call you a PLANT, if you don't...
Message:
watch your spelling...

In your last paragraph, you say that 'you will have nothing to loose'...

Something about that 'Lose/Loose' thing that sets him off...he gets on his 'conspiracy theory' rap...other than that he's generally OK....you just have to watch that spelling...

Otherwise, great post...

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Date: Sat, Mar 17, 2001 at 23:34:51 (GMT)
From: Jim :)
Email: None
To: la-ex
Subject: Where? Where is it!?? (nt)
Message:
fffffff
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Date: Sun, Mar 18, 2001 at 01:29:36 (GMT)
From: G
Email: None
To: Jim :)
Subject: MOM (the Mole) also wrote 'loose'
Message:
They are all around us.
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Date: Sun, Mar 18, 2001 at 03:55:36 (GMT)
From: Jim :)
Email: None
To: G
Subject: Good recon, G. Let's retreat to the barn! (nt)
Message:
ddddd
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Date: Sat, Mar 17, 2001 at 20:55:22 (GMT)
From: Dermot
Email: None
To: Chuck Sprague
Subject: Thanks Charles...good post (nt)
Message:
xx
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Date: Sat, Mar 17, 2001 at 22:27:03 (GMT)
From: Chuck Sprague
Email: bctanda@hotmail.com
To: Dermot
Subject: Thanks Dermot, I hope Erika reads this...
Message:
... as I was addressing her, but forgot to include her name in the title. Though I also know it doesn't only apply to Erika, because many premies see the revisionism as evolution. I know I did for a while. I can relate to that. But outright lying about the past is very different from teaching an evolution of thought. A real teacher has an obligation to explain, whereas a Master does not. I think it's no mistake that M. calles himself The Master. I am a Master to my dogs, and the only understanding I teach them is that they need to understand that they must OBEY ME, because they are lower life forms. And sure, there is love in even that relationship. But I don't consider myself a lower life form to any human being; certainly not one who constantly insinuates and implies he's a Krishna-like superior power in person, while drinking like a fish and lying to us like we are all brain dead idiots who never remember anything.
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Date: Sun, Mar 18, 2001 at 03:15:14 (GMT)
From: Pat Conlon
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: Joe, ''revisionism v evolution'' from inactive
Message:
You quoted me saying this to Erika: ''Those of us who stuck it out for nearly 30 years have seen what you (Erika) call M's evolution and which the exes call revisionism.''

And you asked: ''And just what do you call it Pat? Do you call it evolution? On what possible basis, and how does this correspond with your statements that you think Maharaji is the scum of the earth (or something equally negative)?''

I read this earlier and wanted respond but got busy. Next thing it was inactive. But here's my response.

My short answer is that I call it LIES.

My long answer is that I, like Erika and probably most long-time premies still do, thought of it as ''evolution'' up until a couple of years ago.

I was as I have said before very much a fringe premie. I went through a period of about ten years in the late 80s and early 90s of not going to see Rawat, not watching videos or even having anything to do with premies. (Yep, I still sent those checks to buy my ''indulgences.'')

When Andy expressed an interest in K about 6 years ago I wrote a letter addressed to ''Maharaji's Secretary'' asking how did people get K nowadays as I was so out of the loop. David Smith answered and explained that Andy had to watch videos twice a week for 6 months so I started buying videos and was quite surprised to see the ''evolution'' M and K had undergone.

Gone was the Hinduism, devotion, satsang etc and in it's place was what at first appeared to be something quite palatable to the western mind. At first I was quite pleased.

Then, a few years ago, I looked at a website - not EPO but EV and began to feel uneasy. The more I looked at that the more uncomfortable I became with the blatant lies.

Up until last year I blamed EV for the lies and revisionism. I still defended Rawat. It took going back in to participate with EV that slowly cured me of that illusion but that's a whole nother story.

Then one day I looked at another website and the first real drip happened. It was not EPO. It was maharaji.orgy snd Chuck and I began to talk about it and he told me that he had found EPO. And here we are.

I can't imagine what ''evolution'' Erika is going through. The rationalization of Rawat's revisionism and justification for his behavior is so closely tied in to an attachment to him that the only thing I can see is that the veils of illusion only fall when that emotional attachment is no longer there.

I'm too new to this game to understand the psychology behind premies' disillusionment. I am beginning to wonder if us exes always harbored doubts and revulsion.

Maybe we should do a poll: Did all exes have reservations about Rawat from the beginning?

And conversely: Did all lifers always see no wrong in him?

It would be interesting to see the results.

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Date: Sun, Mar 18, 2001 at 03:56:58 (GMT)
From: Connie
Email: None
To: Pat Conlon
Subject: ''revisionism v evolution'' is active
Message:
Isn't that what brainwashing is all about?

For long timers, they have been sitting passively now for nearly a decade just listening. I think that is very powerful. Just look at how the words and changes are adopted almost overnight.

You don't even realize you are changing or shifting your world view, remember the story of the frog - if you put it in boiling water, it will struggle to jump out as fast as it can, but if you heat the water slowly, by the time it registers, if it ever does, it's too late.

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Date: Sun, Mar 18, 2001 at 19:54:36 (GMT)
From: Chuck Sprague
Email: bctanda@hotmail.com
To: Connie
Subject: ''just passively listening for a decade...''
Message:
Connie said:
''For long timers, they have been sitting passively now for nearly a decade just listening. I think that is very powerful. Just look at how the words and changes are adopted almost overnight.''

Yes indeed, very powerful. ''Church-lady speak'' is very apparent in the posts by premies here. Syncronization with the filiment.

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Date: Sun, Mar 18, 2001 at 13:21:31 (GMT)
From: Bryn
Email: Bryndaviesesq@hotmail.com
To: Connie
Subject: Frog image perceptive. Excellent.Thanks.(nt)
Message:
wo yes.
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Date: Sun, Mar 18, 2001 at 05:48:25 (GMT)
From: Pat Conlon
Email: None
To: Connie
Subject: Connie, I had not heard the frog story but it's
Message:
perfect. But while you are being brainwashed you don't know that you are being brainwashed. It was mostly getting involved with some aspirants and seeing how they were being brainwashed by five months of videos that was one of my final drips.

The next day after I started posting here one of those apsirants killed himself. He had a history of psych problems but it still freaked me out. He had confronted the city contact guy a week before and said: ''If M is the savior and K is the truth why do we have to wait for 5 months. I need it now. I feel as if I am being brainwashed.''

The CC and another guy told him he was in his mind but in the new terminology. I wrote him a letter to tell him to trust his instincts and get out but did not have his address. By the time I was going to give it to him via a third party it was too late.

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Date: Mon, Mar 19, 2001 at 00:31:43 (GMT)
From: JHB
Email: None
To: Pat Conlon
Subject: Pat, this is a big deal isn't it?
Message:
I remember you posting this story as Thelma (?). You're now talking about it more directly, and it's coming across more real. I'm sorry you couldn't get your letter sent, but it's hard to say whether it would have helped. One thing's for certain - Maharaji and EV didn't help.

So Premies, what comment do you have about this?

John the beginning to know what hatred is.

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Date: Mon, Mar 19, 2001 at 01:34:24 (GMT)
From: Pat Conlon
Email: None
To: JHB
Subject: John B, yes it is a big deal
Message:
I cut my ties finally on New Year's Eve 2000, posted here on New Year's day 2001 for the first time. Two days later the kid killed himself. I got drunk and went on a rampage here. One day I will write about it realistically. I am afraid of the emotions that it brings up which is why I posted it as Thelma's drunken smart alecky thingy. One day....

I will never forget and neither will I let those responsible forget. And I could kick myself that I did not hear the kid's pleas for help earlier.

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Date: Sun, Mar 18, 2001 at 04:20:38 (GMT)
From: Michael Dettmers
Email: dettmers@gylanix.com
To: Connie
Subject: Great analogy about the frog, Connie (nt)
Message:
nt
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Date: Sat, Mar 17, 2001 at 20:40:49 (GMT)
From: Susan
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: Answers from Donner (bringing to top)
Message:
These were 'salty mike's answers to LA ex

I thought they deserved a new thread. Thanks Michael Donner for the insights...I am glad you made it out and are speaking out. I was fascinated by your insights.

Susan

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Date: Sat, Mar 17, 2001 at 20:42:44 (GMT)
From: Susan
Email: None
To: Answers from Michael
Subject: here they are oops...
Message:

yes, some or most of what you have asked has been addressed by dettmers and myself to some extend earlier...preface to say that i concur completely with dettmers' accounts, their accuracy and the tone of his replies.
1. drinking? my personal experience is that m has been drinking since i began in denver in 1973...told then by bob mishler that he was drinking daily...that is daily...since he arrived in america.
i know that it was daily...that his daily routine was created around his evening drinking...usually always began about 5pm...minimum 4 or 5 very large shots (probably 2-3 oz per drink) each evening, before dinner...usually later in evening about 9pm
interesting by the way that he never or extremely rarely if ever eat with his children. they were feed earlier.
so he drank cognac every evening til dinner, sometimes after dinner.
often he would drink more, never less.

2. at the millenium program? yes, in houston at the residence he drank daily. i never saw him in all the years drink at any program until after he spoke...then always after. michael Dettmers might know otherwise and i would believe him.
i never experienced m give 'satsang' while drunk or drinking.
dettmers talked about his personality change with more then the usual drink and i certainly witnessed that often enough.
the scene was comical/pathetic (in retrospect). alvaro or john miller would bring a crystal glass out to the dinning room, m at the end of the table, perhaps a couple people sitting against the walls of the dinning room...sometimes 5 or 6. the glass would be on a smallish tray with the glass covered (all the way from the kitchen to the dining room). the serving premie would have the other hand over the heart...the glass placed on the table in front of m and the server bowing with eyes closed....backing out of the room. i witnesed this ritual countless times.

2. drinking problem? you be the judge...my experience was that his whole schedule was set up...covertly around his drinking time.

3. drug use? i witnesed m smoking pot beginning 1973 (my witnessing began then). how often...not sure really, lots more then i saw i know for sure. most likely often weekly during most of the time i was around (1984...then i left and got married, returned as part time instructor til 87 and saw little during those years except it was the same when i was around sometimes as an x-rated premie til 1987).
i personally doubt that m ever tried acid or stronger then hash drugs. not his style to be that out of control. anyways, i have no personal knowledge of anything except pot and hashish nor did i ever hear of more between 1973-87.
hashish was added to a yogart drink at holi festivals, at all holi festivals, india, n. america, spain etc. part of the indian tradition as i was told. very strong. somethimes just pot was ground up with the drink...both were referred to as bong i think.
i never saw m give satsang while stoned.
most often my experience with m and pot was (always) at the residence, late in the evening, maybe 20 x-rated staff around the living room...m would start a large joint, maybe two...to his own lips making it of course more special to us!) he would have as much as he wanted and then pass it to marolyn (usually) and from there to the rest of us til it was gone.
he would play music for awhile and go upstairs to bedroom after 30-60 minutes. we would mill araound and begin to clean up the house and kitchen til quite late on most of those occasions.
for me, this was maybe 2-3 times a month. i found it generally part of what was so boring. Dettmers expressed somewhere on epo that he enjoyed the music...more then me i guess...i prefer to engage with those around me when smoking, laugh and connect with others...none of that ever happened...silence, some whispering perhaps, fairly loud music, some folks sleeping from fatigue until m said goodnite.
( i really liked the community aspect of the k/service experience and that was not the vib around the residence...all single pointed focus of course...very boring)

4. did PAMs ever talk about how strange and hypocritical...?
never with me or to my knowledge. this was the last group of people that i nor anyone would speak with honestly, share any concerns with etc. i had my own network of others who i would speak with about my doubts and concerns...many still my friends and most who left around the same time ...
this is interesting perhaps as it points to the fear or at minimum the lack of ease that existed around m. mostly everyone was 'happy to be there' and would do nothing if possible to risk losing tha place at his feet. everyone knew there was a mile long line of others wanting to be there in our place. so we were all individuals in our own closed systems walking round never really connecting with each other. reminds me of lots of painful feeling of how isolated i felt during...especially...1980-84...bored to.
god, what took me so long to make the break?

5. was it hard to keep the x-rated secrets? yes and no. there were those who i did speak with about it, close friends (which i remember m trying to break me from). i guess having a few that i could speak to was enough to 'take the edge off' the potential conflicts.
plus, clearly m used the x-rated status as a means of coopting us into increased loyalty....playing on that part of us (me) that liked to be special...probably power related also....at least i noticed how others felt more powerful once inside the circle, so it must have been something in me too.

6. was m having affairs since 1977 as mark a. suggested? i really don't know, but it seems like if he were i might have known about it and did not. monica lewis came on the scene in what? 1982? and seemed to be the first to me...or whatever that was about. honestly not even sure personally about that affair and what it was really about.

7/ did i procure women for m? i arranged to have a premie woman at decca to be standing in the 'right place at the right time' at m's request...to 'check he out'. he had me arrange on follow up to that 'darshan' with a meeting at the residence with her, daytime and in the dining room, meeting lasted 15 minutes, not sexual then...and i 'saw' m with her twice after that ..and not sure what or how far that went.

the only other situation was speaking with one resident premie who had sex with m and was devastated afterwards when m would not communicate with her, avoided her etc. the sexual experience was not very satisfying for her...and worse was the avoidence afterwards.

the other names that mark mentioned i do not know about nor have i heard about...grace m i personally doubt, but...
one point here to understand clearly...there were lots of women who would have loved to have sex with m. who shared their fantasies with him via letters, conversations, actions, innuendo etc. he had no shortage of willing companions...but when the power is so imbalanced, even willing takes on significance. of course, all the hindu stories of masters and mistresses go way back and told and retold.

8. have any of those women spoken up? i guess not really.
re: claudia...no, i never spoke with claudia after her break up with raja ji...never heard of the book...i know she was very angry and blamed both m and raja ji for fooling around etc. surely there were threats (felt or implied)during the settlement. i know of no other 'settlements'

9. hit and run i was not aware of that story but believe dettmers about it. sounds like the m that i knew, sounds like the willingness of prouty and others around m that i remember.

10. jagdeo...strangely i never heard of this trip. since reading this forum i have been told of another situation on the east coast in the 70's. i do not feel at liberty to discuss this but will continue to encourage those involved to speak out. i very reliable story to add to the mix.
as i have mentioned elsewhere, m always had the back door channels that he would use...usually the residence staff or those few like randy prouty who were in and out and conduits of info and tasks..leaving those of us on the more 'official side' in the dark. his style of secrecy and divide and conquer.

11/ challenging m? calling him on his immorality? no, i never did except once to wonder (cautiously) about his responsibility towards the instructors he was letting go of so callously. there was a presumption that he was above any standards of course...doubts of that = mind= disloyalty=grounds to be put outside the circle etc.
his general response to the gentle questioning of his dismissal of the instructors , most of whom thought it was for life literally as was the agreement...was (paraphase) 'i made them instructors i can unmake them, that is what their surrender is all about'.

12. did i witness any mircles? no, never. i did see lots of wonderful, talented people working hard together...often inspite of m's disorganization and secrcy and blaming, do great things together. lots of that seemed miraculous to me then and now.
re; the miller story of driving off a cliff, i do vaguly remember that story and never believed it...miller was quite the story teller.

13. my personal relationship with m? cannot really say that i had a personal relationship with him...certainly not the kind that was warm, friendly, conversational, sharing mutual stories, questions, doubts. in retrospect, the feelings that he care about me were based upon the cosmology at the time...all that he did for me...like keep me hanging around endless in a waiting mode because i was the active type...he did for my own good out of his love for me. that he had some special, personal plan for my life to help me become a 'better person' (read better devotee). this is the mantra i chanted most of the time that both provided a context to explain all the uncomfotable feeling i was having as well as provide a foundational understanding of some personal relationship.
did i ever feel i could speak openly with him? no never.
did i ever see anyon else speak openly or honestly with him, no never. i believe michael dettmers (small question about what happened after that one time with michael and m left the room without saying anything...how long before michael left his service and bow did m change towards michael after that??)

14. what about the future...what is the best thing that could happen now? something between the ex s and m?
at this point i have zero interest in trying to arrange anything with m and us or others. i have no reason to believe that he will or could change and become a serious world leader using his charisma or something to affect change. his credibility is completely shot, and unsalvageable in my small opinion. i have too many things in my life that i enjoy and am doing to on a smaller local scale to be at all interested. my co housing community here, raising my daughter, on the board of the local waldorf school, learning about myself via my close relationships etc.
ironically and in some very strange way apparently there are those still working thru that part of themselves that is a devotee and it often takes a guru to have that. so long as there are devotees, there will be those willing to be gurus.
our most important work is to grow that devotee up within ourselves into more wholeness and personal power and self love.
i can't imagine what m will do. certainly he could leave it all and retire as he has often threatened to do...unless he is stillhooked on the 'love' and adoration of others...probably.
honestly, i care very little what will happen, except to be willing to reach out and spend some time with those who might benefit from someone on the outside who has been there.

bye for now...what do you think la ex.?

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Date: Sun, Mar 18, 2001 at 13:20:42 (GMT)
From: AJW
Email: None
To: Mike Donner.
Subject: Thanks Mike.
Message:
Hey,

Thanks for that Mike.

All the bits and pieces of the puzzle are fitting together, and it's not a pretty picture. Nobody is coming out of the cult and saying, 'No, Dettmers was lying. Captain Rawat doesn't drink at all.' All the accounts of what's really going on, support all the other accounts.

There are three standpoints. You can believe it and quit. You can remain in ignorance. You can believe it but try to cover it up and justify it to yourself in some crazy way.

Most premies are in the mushroom class in the middle, 'kept in the dark and fed on shit.'

Your information about another Jagdeo offence on the East Coast is disturbing, but not unexpected. I'd like to discuss this more with you offline if that's OK.

It's really good that you're posting Mike. I hope you stick around, and maybe start writing your 'Journey.' (Please let me edit it and insert some capital letters before you post it).

Mr Ginn. (English and Drama)

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Date: Sat, Mar 17, 2001 at 22:53:38 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Susan
Subject: Thanks for all that, Donner
Message:
Really glad you're posting, donner. Your perspective, your personality is different than Mike's and for those of us who never got to actually touch the elephant, it's so good to hear from those who did.

Actually, now that you're here, I don't think we need Dettmers anymore. We can't afford to keep every ex-PAM on the payroll just for the hell of it. I'm sure he'll understand. Marianne, could you draw up the papers please?

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Date: Sun, Mar 18, 2001 at 09:33:53 (GMT)
From: janet
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: dettmers-you're staying! jim's drunk!
Message:
pay no attention to that silly lawyer behind the curtain. we want you here. and we outnumber him. so there.

¦-[Þ

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Date: Sun, Mar 18, 2001 at 19:11:56 (GMT)
From: Francesca
Email: None
To: janet
Subject: janet I love having you here! LOLs :--P n/t
Message:
yeah, baby
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Date: Sun, Mar 18, 2001 at 19:41:43 (GMT)
From: Pat Conlon
Email: None
To: Francesca
Subject: Pauline's selling a kidney so janet can come to
Message:
Latvian Night!
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Date: Sun, Mar 18, 2001 at 18:24:56 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: janet
Subject: That is one fucking beautiful emoticom!
Message:
Until yesterday, I've never really been the emoticom type. In fact, I never had much time for them kinda people. But that was so beautiful! Thank you, Janet.
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Date: Sat, Mar 17, 2001 at 23:07:10 (GMT)
From: Michael Dettmers
Email: dettmers@gylanix.com
To: Jim
Subject: Humm...!
Message:
Sounds similar to my last meeting with M.

Jim, are you M's equivalent at EPO?

Michael

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Date: Sun, Mar 18, 2001 at 10:24:30 (GMT)
From: Marianne
Email: None
To: Jim and Michael
Subject: No paper drawing for me
Message:
Hey Jim, you can draw up papers too! You're trying to make me do something with eDrek and now Dettmers. I'm much too busy organizing the next few Latvian Nights -- SF, Miami, Montreal, London again in the fall, etc. Do you own dirty work.

Did someone give you a happy pill?

Marianne

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Date: Sun, Mar 18, 2001 at 18:39:25 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Marianne
Subject: Do I own dirty work? Well I guess I have a little
Message:
Actually, Marianne, I'm really quite happy. I'm happy with this whole ex thing. So many neat people saying so many cool and interesting things about something bizarre I once lived through. Although I'd resigned myself to think no one would ever really appreciate that strange part of my lifem that feeling's long, long gone. Now, not only are there so many I can *talk* with or *listen* to but many of them had such rich and varied vantage points former grunts like me can learn so much from.
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Date: Sun, Mar 18, 2001 at 20:20:01 (GMT)
From: Marianne
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Hear, hear
Message:
Couldn't have said it better meself, Jimmy.

Your unfashionable pal, Marianne

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Date: Sun, Mar 18, 2001 at 09:37:22 (GMT)
From: janet
Email: None
To: Michael Dettmers
Subject: you noticed, huh? he thinks he is. hahahaha.
Message:
some people learn frighteningly well from their masters. you can see it when they turn around and practice it on their inferiors. or so they think they are, anyway.

still, it's usefull to have such a vociferous guard dog. his barking scares away the burglars.

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Date: Sat, Mar 17, 2001 at 23:24:23 (GMT)
From: Richard
Email: None
To: Dettmers, Donner, Rollins
Subject: Dettmers, Donner, Rollins question
Message:
Since you three seem to be congregating at this thread, I have a question for any / all of you.

I am certain that many disenfranchised former PWKs and current PWKs read this forum. I assume you continue contact with some of those who have been privy to the inner workings as you have. Without sharing confidences of course, what is their mind set and would some of them be willing to share here? If not, what are their objections?

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Date: Sun, Mar 18, 2001 at 03:27:01 (GMT)
From: donner
Email: None
To: Richard
Subject: Dettmers, Donner, Rollins question
Message:
i am not in touch with anyone currently involved organizationally in any way. only some friends in smallish towns still practicing some at least.
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Date: Sun, Mar 18, 2001 at 00:27:22 (GMT)
From: Michael Dettmers
Email: dettmers@gylanix.com
To: Richard
Subject: Dettmers, Donner, Rollins question
Message:
Richard,

I have received several e-mails from premies who are in the process of exiting the cult because of my posts, but who do not yet post on the Forum. All have told me that they derive tremendeous benefit from the different perspectives that are represented on the Forum, which is so helpful because exiting for them is such a gut wrenching experience. They don't post because they don't yet feel comfortable to do so, and/or because they still have many premies friends they either don't wnat to lose or confront.

I have only received two e-mails from premies whom I once knew who are still involved. They don't deny the reports I and other's have made about M, but they either rationalize it a-la Turner, or they are cinvinced that M will one day answer all of these questions to their satisfaction. I encourage them to keep tuning into the Forum and to e-mail me whenever they wish to.

Michael

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Date: Sat, Mar 17, 2001 at 23:55:43 (GMT)
From: guy rollins
Email: guy@architx.com
To: Richard
Subject: Dettmers, Donner, Rollins question
Message:
I have talked about this forum to a few friends since Donner made me aware of MVD's posts. I'm not sure if that will influence any of them to monitor or post on this site.

What does PWK mean? Premie with knowledge? As opposed to a Premie who has renounced knowledge?

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Date: Sun, Mar 18, 2001 at 01:11:45 (GMT)
From: Richard
Email: None
To: guy rollins and dettmers
Subject: Dettmers, Guy - thanks
Message:
Michael your testimonial to the Forum should be part of the TV campaign we are planning. I kid you but it is great to know others are deriving help from reading here.

And apparently Donner gets a new toaster oven for referring Guy to the Forum.

Thank you gentlemen.

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Date: Sun, Mar 18, 2001 at 00:04:12 (GMT)
From: Richard
Email: None
To: guy rollins
Subject: Guy, sorry about the lingo
Message:
PWK is how M/ EV referred to Person With Knowledge. Don't know if he / they still do but it's used here as short hand. PWKs would be People With Knowledge. Some people here use a derogatory term Pwick (as in prick) or Pewk (as in puke).

Face it man, you've joined a new cult! You and Donner both seem to react with puzzlement to the shorthand used here so maybe the oldtimers will be more universal in usage. Or someone can put together a glossary for newcomers.

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Date: Sun, Mar 18, 2001 at 00:02:26 (GMT)
From: Katie H.
Email: None
To: guy rollins
Subject: PWK=Person with Knowledge
Message:
This is actually an EV term (to replace 'premie', I guess). Unlike 'PAM', which is an ex-premie.org-orginating term :).
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Date: Sun, Mar 18, 2001 at 00:05:45 (GMT)
From: Richard
Email: None
To: Katie H.
Subject: PAM = Premie Around Maharaji /nt
Message:
nt
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Date: Sun, Mar 18, 2001 at 00:08:32 (GMT)
From: Katie
Email: None
To: Richard
Subject: PAM = Person Around Maharaji
Message:
It's really 'person around Maharaji' - it comes from the way EV/DLM would always say 'people around Maharaji' when expressing an opinion on one thing or another - rather than saying 'Maharaji' thinks this, that, or whatever. Sort of the 'bearer of bad news' idea.

Broke another posts read record today - perhaps the FA's will give detail.

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Date: Sun, Mar 18, 2001 at 00:54:26 (GMT)
From: guy rollins
Email: guy@architx.com
To: Katie
Subject: PAM = Person Around Maharaji
Message:
Thanks for the education.

I figure 'nt' must be no text...I'm fast!

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Date: Sun, Mar 18, 2001 at 03:26:35 (GMT)
From: Katie
Email: None
To: guy rollins
Subject: you got it!
Message:
Pretty smart! Some of this is just standard internet lingo - and if you haven't posted on another board, it can be confusing:

nt = no text (took me forever to figure that one out)
LOL = laughing out loud
ROFL (and variations) = rolling on the floor laughing
BTW = by the way
IMHO or IMO or JMO = in my honest opinion, or in my opinion, or just my opinion
:) or or (g) = smile or grin

I know there are more...

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Date: Sun, Mar 18, 2001 at 09:44:13 (GMT)
From: janet
Email: None
To: Katie--to guy
Subject: OT=subject off topic(not gmj dish)...nt
Message:
nt
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Date: Sun, Mar 18, 2001 at 03:41:23 (GMT)
From: Katie
Email: None
To: guy
Subject: Just realized you probably know all this! nt
Message:
nt
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Date: Sat, Mar 17, 2001 at 23:21:00 (GMT)
From: Katie H.
Email: None
To: Michael Dettmers
Subject: Michael Dettmers, a personal post to you
Message:
Hey Michael -
I wrote this to someone in e-mail last night, so thought I'd say it to you in person. I REALLY appreciate your posting on this forum - I know that you got kind of a rough reception at first, and I appreciate your perseverance and your willingness to examine your ideas and beliefs about Maharaji.

As you probably know, I've been hanging around this forum and site for a long time, and your posts about your experiences have been a major 'drip' (see Anth's Journey) for so many people. I think you have caused many people to think about their involvement with Maharaji, and I think that has helped these people tremendously.

I'm also happy for your sake that you are not the only certified PAM here anymore - must be kind of a relief, eh?

Take care - and thanks.
Katie H.

P.S. Brian and I hope to meet you in person some time soon. We did sneak up to Charlottesville a few months ago to have an top secret X-rated Aussie/US ex-premie meeting at the 'Amaroo Inn' :).

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Date: Sat, Mar 17, 2001 at 23:30:51 (GMT)
From: Michael Dettmers
Email: dettmers@gylanix.com
To: Katie H.
Subject: Thanks
Message:
Katie,

I am delighted that Michael Donner is sharing his information and perspective on the Forum and I encourage other ex-PAMs to do the same.

Since we're practically neighbors, let's get together on your next visit to C'Ville.

Michael

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Date: Sat, Mar 17, 2001 at 23:37:07 (GMT)
From: Katie H.
Email: None
To: Michael Dettmers
Subject: You're welcome
Message:
We'll be in touch.

Actually, we were in C'ville the weekend of the Va. Tech/Virginia game last year, and had to be FAR more secretive about being Hokies than about being ex-premies :). But it's a great town.

Take care,
Katie

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Date: Sat, Mar 17, 2001 at 23:48:31 (GMT)
From: Michael Dettmers
Email: dettmers@gylanix.com
To: Katie H.
Subject: Oh no!
Message:
Katie,

I am an assistant coach with UVA's mens ice hockey team. We lost this year to the Hokies in the playoffs. Better not visit during hockey season next year. I'll definately 'out' you.

Michael

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Date: Sat, Mar 17, 2001 at 23:57:11 (GMT)
From: Katie H.
Email: None
To: Michael Dettmers
Subject: Oh no! is right
Message:
LOL - we'll be sure to wear all our Hokie paraphenalia up there to embarass you. Also will be depending on you to protect us - those hockey players can be mean WHEN they have their pads, etc. on.

Katie the former Caps fan :) (actually we don't get good coverage of hockey down here, despite the Roanoke team, so have switched to being a big college/NFL football fan.)

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Date: Sat, Mar 17, 2001 at 23:14:40 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Michael Dettmers
Subject: Who ME?? As Bal Bhagwan Ji use to say
Message:
I'm nothing. I'm just a bag of bones.

But, the pathetic thing is ... naw, it's not worth getting into. Okay, you can stay. For now, at least.

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Date: Sat, Mar 17, 2001 at 23:26:17 (GMT)
From: Richard
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Hey Jim, let's just let Bahgwans be Bahgwans /nt
Message:
nt
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Date: Sun, Mar 18, 2001 at 04:30:19 (GMT)
From: Jim :)
Email: None
To: Richard
Subject: Cute but, Richard, let's face it, that's a pun
Message:
I'm inclined to avoid puns being that they were one of the tools Maharaji used to enslave us.

Well, that's one reason.

Frankly, puns scare me. They're like clowns, kinda. Know what I mean? You wouldn't want a clown sitting right next to you when you're trying to eat or anything, would you? Well, same thing. Only instead of a clown, it's a pun.

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Date: Sun, Mar 18, 2001 at 07:31:53 (GMT)
From: Richard (|:-)[~~]X
Email: None
To: Jim :)
Subject: Very punny Jim
Message:
You're clowning around, right? Well I happen to love wordplay of any kind, pun or otherwise. Now clowns, that's another story. They freak my out. Always have. Don't know why but they seem dishonest in a malevolent sort of way. And ever since I saw that photo of John Wayne Gacey in clown drag it sort of capped any hope I ever had of overcoming my Bozophobia. And mimes - mimes should be rounded up and forced to perform for the blind while trapped in a real glass box.
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Date: Sun, Mar 18, 2001 at 09:51:07 (GMT)
From: janet
Email: None
To: Richard (|:-)[~~]X
Subject: love puns, hate clowns. watch out. now i know!
Message:
Jim, i now have yet one more way to annoy you and drive you to drink and civil suits.
richard, great to find a kindred spirit. the bhagwan number was choice. more??
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Date: Sun, Mar 18, 2001 at 18:48:08 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: janet
Subject: FA - Could you please sweep this post for threats?
Message:
I'm not sure but I think Janet's threatening me. Trouble is, I'm a little slow this morning after we got a little Latvian last night. Juts a litle. But I think there's a threat in there. Something to do with clowns or something. Thanks.
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Date: Sun, Mar 18, 2001 at 15:11:38 (GMT)
From: Susan
Email: None
To: janet
Subject: Bozophobiacs Unite
Message:
that was great. I share Jim's pun shyness as well, same reason, heard to many in the cult.

Didn't 'if it doesn't fit, you must acquit' sound like Charnanand would have said it? Stupid rhymes were big too.

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Date: Sun, Mar 18, 2001 at 18:51:44 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Susan
Subject: I would LOL if I wasn't half asleep
Message:
Susan,

First, I was kidding. Shit, now I have to even tell YOU that? YOU, Susan? Oh my God!

But second, that was a very, very, very ....Susan that was just so fucking funny! 'If it fits, you must acquit'! By the way, I'm thinking of using that as a joke some day in a jury adress. Haven't had the guts to do it yet but, well, some day.

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Date: Sun, Mar 18, 2001 at 07:26:02 (GMT)
From: Francesca
Email: None
To: Jim :)
Subject: I love puns, and clowns. Homey don't play dat n/t
Message:
Homey the clown from 'In Living Color' boy he was mean.
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Date: Sat, Mar 17, 2001 at 23:10:25 (GMT)
From: Monmot
Email: None
To: Michael Dettmers
Subject: LOL!!! Touche......nt
Message:
mm
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Date: Sat, Mar 17, 2001 at 22:38:03 (GMT)
From: Katie H.
Email: mishkat@tigerriver.com
To: Michael Donner
Subject: Thanks, Michael Donner
Message:
Hi Michael -
(I know what you mean about being named Michael and being called Mike, by the way!)

This forum is moving so fast that it took me forever to find it, but I was particularly struck by something you said in one of your posts below. You wrote:
in retrospect, it feels to me that most of what we learned and have carried forword into our current lives (my current life) was
is due, not to m personally, rather his message/ideal we heard and lots of it in spite of him...overcoming him and being willing to hold on to the true love that i discovered while there..for me that is jeff, teddy, joe, dic, michael, gary, don, etc etc.etc. loving and nuturing myself, empowering myself. all in spite of his best efforts to try to get me to leave, ignore, refect, all but him.

I don't really agree with you about M's 'message/ideal', because I don't recall him saying anything about connecting with other people/premies. But I definitely agree with you about the community and the individuals I met when I was a premie being the best part about my involvement. The premies I met when I first started going to satsang were SO accepting and kind - I was attending satsang with a group of friends who were all about 15 to 18 years old and most of us were basically pretty weird and somewhat freaked out at the time. (I particularly remember the kindness of Susie Whitten, Jackie Murphy, and Connie Best, but know there were many others).

I really haven't kept in touch with people I knew from my old premie days, except of course, people who I was friends with when I became a premie - my sister, my best friend, and others. However, Brian and I have met a LOT of ex-premies, and we have felt a strong sense of connection still there. I think it has something to do with being the kind of people who would be attracted to Maharaji in the first place AND with being the kind of people who would leave Maharaji.

You wrote in the message Susan copied above:
i really liked the community aspect of the k/service experience and that was not the vib around the residence...all single pointed focus of course...very boring
and re being a PAM
everyone knew there was a mile long line of others wanting to be there in our place. so we were all individuals in our own closed systems walking round never really connecting with each other. reminds me of lots of painful feeling of how isolated i felt during...especially...1980-84...bored to...
and
...clearly m used the x-rated status as a means of coopting us into increased loyalty....playing on that part of us (me) that liked to be special...probably power related also....at least i noticed how others felt more powerful once inside the circle, so
it must have been something in me too.

My worst memories of being a premie are of myself trying to get more involved with the people who were closer to Maharaji (really just ashram premies, for me - I never knew any PAM's, and NEVER saw Maharaji close up except in darshan.) There was a definite social pecking order, and I wanted to climb higher on it - I wasn't just content to be a sort of fringe premie (I was a VERY insecure teenager and you know how many teenagers always want to be in the 'in crowd' anyway!) And of course, this led to a lot of anxiety about being in the right place at festivals, etc, having the right service, being 'connected' to the ashram premies, etc. I was pretty callous to some of the premies I was closest to because they didn't have the right 'devoted status'.

About isolation - I remember very well the 'space-out' of 1976 when most of the premies (including me) were loosening up, relaxing, moving out of the ashram, having fun with each other, and generally having a good time. I particularly remember one festival in Providence RI in 1976 when we did not do the whole darshan ritual (and how competitive THAT was) - just walked past Maharaji and bowed or waved or whatever. It was wonderful. I also particularly remember the 'rededication' message of late 1976 and early 1977, when we were basically told to stop having fun and to stop relating to each other as people, and focus on being devoted to Maharaji. I still have horrible memories of a Holi festival in Miami where I felt completely alienated from everyone because of this. (I left shortly thereafter - couldn't handle it.)

Of course, since then, Maharaji has tightened up the isolation and estrangement between premies even further by stopping satsang, not allowing people to talk about knowledge, and generally being extremely secretive and paranoid. I personally know of at least a few premies who lurk around this forum because we are actually allowed to talk to each other. It ain't satsang, but IMHO it's the closest thing to the after-satsang chit-chat sessions (which I loved) that exists today. I honestly don't know how people can deal with being involved today unless they have a very strong personal support system of people who they ARE allowe to talk to.

Well, this is getting kind of long, but I wanted to let you know that I appreciated your comments about the kind of people who became premies, and the isolation that Maharaji has attempted to impose on premies then and now. (This 'divide and conquer' and 'blaming the messenger' and scapegoating is extremely common in alcoholic or other dysfunctional families, by the way - it was present in my family when I was growing up, and I only survived because my sister and I refused to let our alcoholic parents come between us.)

Take care -
Katie H.

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Date: Sat, Mar 17, 2001 at 22:24:55 (GMT)
From: Jerry
Email: None
To: Susan
Subject: Thank you, Mike
Message:
This is really important stuff you're sharing with us, Mike. I hope it helps you to share it as much as it does for us to hear about it. Maybe more PAMs will come forward to cleanse their own souls as well in days to come. If this stuff that you and Dettmer's claim happenned really did, than anybody else who was there to witness it really should. It's just pure selfishness not to. Hats off to you and Dettmers. At least two of you cared enough to step forward. I really hope more do in the future. Maybe they just don't understand how important it is that they do. It's real important. The truth always is.
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Date: Sat, Mar 17, 2001 at 21:15:16 (GMT)
From: guy rollins
Email: guy@architx.com
To: Donner
Subject: In response to your Answers:
Message:
Donner wrote:

honestly, i care very little what will happen, except to be willing to reach out and spend some time with those who might benefit from someone on the outside who has been there.
*****

Michael, I second your ending statement (above). Good post, very fair and accurate.

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Date: Sat, Mar 17, 2001 at 22:46:10 (GMT)
From: Katie H.
Email: None
To: guy rollins
Subject: I agree with you, Guy
Message:
Honestly, I find Maharaji to be VERY boring. (I believe that saying which goes 'The opposite of love isn't hate - it's indifference.) And after being around this site and forum for a while, I find Maharaji to be even MORE boring. He IS boring, IMHO.

However, I don't find the people who read and post here (both ex-premies and premies) to be boring, and I am glad that you and both Michael D.'s feel the same way.

Take care,
Katie H.

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Date: Sat, Mar 17, 2001 at 22:10:04 (GMT)
From: Joe
Email: None
To: guy rollins
Subject: Question, Guy
Message:
You referred in an earlier post to being blamed by Maharaji concering the purchase of a plane (apparently along with someone else), when in reality you had opposed the purchase.

Can you explain the details of that?

Also, regarding the Boeing 707. I was at Deca for awhile and in Miami for some time after that while the plane was being worked on.

Whose idea was that project in the first place? Who had the idea of getting a passenger plane and converting it? I know M was into it, but do you know how it got started?

I sat in on a meeting with Virgil, Hession and a bunch of other people, maybe you were there in about September, 1979, when the whole plane purchase was talked about. Virgil was livid at the way the plane purchase was handled, and Hession explained the corporate structure for owning the plane. Do you recall any of that?

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Date: Sun, Mar 18, 2001 at 00:20:55 (GMT)
From: guy rollins
Email: guy@architx.com
To: Joe
Subject: Question, Guy
Message:
You referred in an earlier post to being blamed by Maharaji concering the purchase of a plane (apparently along with someone else), when in reality you had opposed the purchase.

Can you explain the details of that?
******
First, let me say that my memory for time and detail is not nearly so good as Dettmers and Donner....

Before one of M's around the world trips, he sent me to look at used bizjets in several cities (while he was gone). This was probably because the 707 was proving to be to big, too expensive, too old to operate.

We ended up buying and renovating an older Hawker-Siddley. I pointed out some of it's deficiencies, but M was enthusiastic. I don't believe it had sufficient range.

We installed new interior, new avionics, paint, etc. The first time M wanted to fly there was some mechanical/electrical problem that kept it grounded. He was disappointed and I don't believe he ever used it after that -- or used it very little.
*****
Also, regarding the Boeing 707. I was at Deca for awhile and in Miami for some time after that while the plane was being worked on.

Whose idea was that project in the first place? Who had the idea of getting a passenger plane and converting it? I know M was into it, but do you know how it got started?
******
Dettmers probably has more background on this than I do.

I had moved back to Malibu and was living with some folks in a house in Trancas Canyon. I got a call to come up to the residence and heard from M about the plan to purchase a plane. I was asked to produce a deck plan (floor plan). At this time I had no aviation experience.

Soon thereafter we moved the operation to Miami and began IMMCO (?), which became DECA.
*****
I sat in on a meeting with Virgil, Hession and a bunch of other people, maybe you were there in about September, 1979, when the whole plane purchase was talked about. Virgil was livid at the way the plane purchase was handled, and Hession explained the corporate structure for owning the plane. Do you recall any of that?
*****
No, I don't remember the particular meeting you mention.

I saw the jet (an old Pan Am B707) at the Miami airport before it was purchased. I was never involved in the details of the purchase.

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Date: Sun, Mar 18, 2001 at 01:11:14 (GMT)
From: Michael Dettmers
Email: dettmers@gylanix.com
To: guy rollins
Subject: The 707
Message:
Joe and Guy,

The idea for securing and converting a large jet into a flying residence for him and his family was Maharaji’s. Who else would come up with such an idea? He had seen world leaders disembark their private L1011’s, and DC10’s on TV and thought, “Why not me?”

Let me give you a little additional background for this decision. In November 1977, Maharaji held an international Hans Jayanti festival in Rome. The person who was tasked with securing a chartered aircraft to transport M and his family encountered some last minute snags, and the deal fell through. Consequently, M et. al. were forced to travel First Class on SAS Airways from LA to Denmark. At the time, M had two very young children, Wadi and Hansi. One or both of them cried throughout most of the flight. Several of the First Class passengers complained about the noise. Maharaji, who was now quite drunk and needed to pee, was very uncomfortable using the public head. I distinctly remember him coming to my seat and saying, “This is the worst experience I have ever had in my life.” He wasn’t exactly blaming me for the situation, but he was making it clear that it was my job to see that he never had to fly commercial airlines again. To complete this journey, we managed to charter a Folker jet for the trip from Denmark to Rome.

While in Rome, I took charge of securing a charter aircraft from Rome to … (I can’t remember if he went home to Malibu, or if he headed for London). In any case, the chartered aircraft lost an engine shortly after takeoff. The plane had to circle Rome while dumping fuel before making an emergency landing back in Rome. That did it. Maharaji made it absolutely clear that I had to secure him a plane that could accommodate him, his family and his staff and that it had to be a plane that was impeccably maintained by his people. No more charters.

During this period, Maharaji owned a twin-engine Cessna aircraft, which he used for personal recreation -vacations to the Bahamas and such. Following the Rome fiasco, he charged his co-pilot with the task of finding a suitable aircraft. The result was the used Boeing 707, one of the first Pan Am 707’s in service, and now comfortably retired on an airfield in Dublin, Ireland. I was in M’s office in Malibu when he received a call from his co-pilot enthusiastically proclaiming that he had found the “diamond in the rough” aircraft that was just perfect for Maharaji. Maharaji poured us each another drink and I was dispatched to Ireland with Raja Ji to consummate the deal.

Michael

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Date: Sun, Mar 18, 2001 at 02:38:50 (GMT)
From: Moldy Warp
Email: None
To: Michael Dettmers
Subject: Hans Jayanti 77 - different travelling styles!
Message:
God, Michael, thanks for that post! That brought back some memories for me. Hans Jayanti Rome 77 was my honeymoon (yes, only on this site could I admit this!). A whole bunch of us travelled from Newcastle-upon-Tyne, England, to Rome on a double-decker bus with metal-backed seats! There were lots of small kids on that bus. Someone's baby caught a virus ( or some sort of serious bug -can't remember what) and nearly died. The bus hit a bridge at a border stopping, narrowly avoiding maiming the adults and kids upstairs in the front seats. Kids cried a lot ( as they would stuck on a bus for 3 days!). But the thing about your post that gets me even more than god-in-a-bod's transport demands, is that he was getting pissed. And there's us, seriously deprived of sleep and comfort ( not to mention sanity), worshipping him as Krishna!
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Date: Sun, Mar 18, 2001 at 02:37:26 (GMT)
From: observer
Email: None
To: Michael Dettmers
Subject: aircraft accident study
Message:
'In any case, the chartered aircraft lost an engine shortly after takeoff. The plane had to circle Rome while dumping fuel before making an emergency landing back in Rome.'

I heard about a study done by premies on aircraft accidents. That seems to shed light on why this was done. Maybe he was simply afraid of death.

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Date: Sun, Mar 18, 2001 at 01:30:41 (GMT)
From: guy rollins
Email: guy@architx.com
To: Michael Dettmers
Subject: The 707
Message:
Thanks for the background, Michael.

I heard about a lot of things (at the time) that I wasn't involved in, but now it's all dim memories. Must have worked too hard at DECA!

Was it December '77 when we began the project in Malibu and January, '78 when I/we arrived in Miami?

Thanks, Guy

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Date: Sun, Mar 18, 2001 at 03:18:13 (GMT)
From: Alan Fenstermacher
Email: alan@woodcon.com
To: Guy + MD'S
Subject: The 707 - General Projects Budgeting Process
Message:
Guy Michael or Mike,

Did any of these major projects ever go through any kind of process to develop a budget before they proceeded or did M tell you what he wanted and then you had to go find the money?

I ask because the last project I worked on for DLM was the Denver Unity School (76) and I remember the school had x number of dollars so the project was going to be built for x and when I received all the material quotes it was like 3x. I was told not to worry and the principal was going to ask DLM for the money. In the end it was a lot of fund-raisers and some scaling back, but all this was discovered after the building had been purchased or leased.

A-

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Date: Sun, Mar 18, 2001 at 04:09:22 (GMT)
From: Michael Dettmers
Email: dettmers@gylanix.com
To: Alan Fenstermacher
Subject: The 707 - General Projects Budgeting Process
Message:
Alan,

Yes, there was a budgeting process, but it had little to do with whether a project was funded or not. Maharaji set the priorities and we did our best to give him what he wanted. The budgeting process was simply a way of determining how much the project would cost.

Often, Maharaji would look at a budget and complain that it was too expensive. The first items he always questioned were the costs required to support the premies who would be working on the project. When we cut those back to the bare bones, he might decide to cut back on some of the requirements he had specified. Inevitably, thought, he would re-instate his original requirements, and then add a few more. Whatever budget we began with got completely blown and would have to be covered by another round of fundraising.

Michael

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Date: Sun, Mar 18, 2001 at 01:37:34 (GMT)
From: Michael Dettmers
Email: dettmers@gylanix.com
To: guy rollins
Subject: I think it was about a year later (nt)
Message:
nt
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Date: Sat, Mar 17, 2001 at 22:23:35 (GMT)
From: Richard
Email: None
To: Guy
Subject: One more question, Guy
Message:
I know a lot of DECCA participants turned sour on M because he never acknowledged their tremendous efforts and personal sacrifice. Do you know if M ever thanked anyone for 'the project?' Or any other project for that matter.

R

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Date: Sun, Mar 18, 2001 at 00:27:57 (GMT)
From: guy rollins
Email: guy@architx.com
To: Richard
Subject: One more question, Guy
Message:
I believe I received at least one (g) thanks from M....I remember thinking about this at the time. It was very unusual to hear M thank someone for a good job, but he did occasionally.
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Date: Sat, Mar 17, 2001 at 22:27:07 (GMT)
From: Joe
Email: None
To: Richard
Subject: Okay, one more....
Message:
And is it really true that even before the plane was finished, Maharaji already wanted to get rid of it and get a different plane?

Richard, tag, you're it!

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Date: Sun, Mar 18, 2001 at 00:33:56 (GMT)
From: guy rollins
Email: guy@architx.com
To: Joe
Subject: Okay, one more....
Message:
I don't remember that.

I know that Dettmers had an aviation consultant who recommended against the B707 -- and he was right. M would have been better off with a Gulfstream from the start.

It was M's desire to carry the whole family, the staff and household that made him select a B707. I remember that he was very excited when it was finally finished and he took off.

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Date: Sun, Mar 18, 2001 at 01:30:23 (GMT)
From: Michael Dettmers
Email: dettmers@gylanix.com
To: guy rollins
Subject: More on the 707
Message:
Nice work Guy.

Let’s see if I can add to the story. Once we had purchased this “diamond in the rough” 707 for $250,000.00, we realized that it needed a lot of work. Since I knew virtually nothing about the aviation industry, I hired an expert whom Raja Ji had met on the Concord on one of his flights from New York to London. His name was Vernon Crudge, the then current President of the Wings Club and a person who knew everyone in, and everything about, the aviation game. His help was invaluable in getting the 707 certified and ensuring that it was manned by a competent flight crew.

When he first saw the 707, he was horrified at its condition and did suggest that M would have been better off with a Gulfstream but, at that time a Gulfstream would not have had the range, nor would it have been able to transport M and his family in the comfort and style he demanded.

In time, Vernon Crudge became a close personal friend who was very helpful at opening doors for Dettmers Industries after I had left M’s service. He has since passed away.

Michael

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Date: Sun, Mar 18, 2001 at 02:27:39 (GMT)
From: Joy
Email: joy52@earthlink.net
To: Michael Dettmers
Subject: I Have A Quick ? re the 707
Message:
Does anybody know how often this 707 was used by M once it was finished? I had heard that it was just a few times before it was sold or retired.

I find that really incredible. All those millions of man-hours (sorry, person-hours), people's health ruined, milions of dollars, and all for what, just a few rides? There is something really obscene about that.

So does anyone have any info on how much the thing was actually used to transport M after it was completed?

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Date: Sun, Mar 18, 2001 at 02:44:55 (GMT)
From: Michael Dettmers
Email: dettmers@gylanix.com
To: Joy
Subject: Quick Ans. re the 707
Message:
Joy,

I don't remember the exact number of times it was used but it was definitely more than a few times between mid-1980 through the beginning of 1984 on many around the world trips.

Michael

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Date: Sun, Mar 18, 2001 at 06:39:12 (GMT)
From: bill burke
Email: None
To: Michael Dettmers
Subject: NHD707
Message:
I belive the HD in the name NHD707 stood for Hans Dut(sp) and it was hindi for -emperor of the soul-.
We worked on it from 8-9 in the morning till the last meal arrived from the Broadripple at 2:30 AM. With a break for satsang if we were at the complex. No satsang break at the hanger.
I would imagine this story is remembered by some. When the first tour using the jet was underway, one of the stops was in Montreal and the temperature was below zero and the plane was allowed to be without heat for some amount of time. When the plane was reheated, it was done too quickly and most of the Ebony Wood trim that was used throughout the interiour 'Blued'.
A separation between the finish and the wood.
The story that came to us at the DECA cabinet and paint crews was that m was livid and the guy in charge, I dont remember his name, was put through blistering hell by an enraged m.
Did he really blow in a major way at some people?

I also heard that the plane was next sold to the maharishi mahesh yogi, the t.m. guy. Sound right?

During a deca holi, or afterwards, as m was walking through the pranaming crowd to the garage, a 'wispy sister' (as the paint crew would refer to some of the girls), went up to m and gave him a bouquet of flowers. In the garage, we were told m was angry and said to hession, 'If you do anything for me keep those premies away from me!' The girl was no longer allowed at DECA.
Did he have a strong aversion to contact outside of his usual
structures?

Guy Rollins mentioned m being happy when the 707 took off the first time. Maybe he meant the first time it flew or the first time HE flew it, maybe both, I remember when it flew the first time, I was on the roof of the deca complex with the paint and cabinet crews and others, as the jet went just about directly overhead, a little plane was following, that was m in that one,
and as the 707 went over Miami, we noticed smoke starting to rise from a couple fires in the city not far from us, it was the exact start of the Miami riots. We of course the next day had some divine opinion of that..
maybe Donner or Guy remember if m had any commments about the
premies that hung out around the airport and at the little beach
at the hospital which was right across the water from his REZ
there in Miami.--?

I remember watching m trying to get an ultralight seaplane off the water in the bay and the thing instead went headfirst into the water pretty hard. He bobbed to the surface, and that was the end of that! I used to watch him jet ski daily and water ski and boat. That was after the 707 of course.

You know, just after christmas 79, m had an announcement made to the premies at the St John Church-the premie satsang hall in Miami. The message was 'dont do drugs and dont hang out with those that do.' He did do drugs after that announcement correct?

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Date: Sun, Mar 18, 2001 at 16:29:26 (GMT)
From: Michael Dettmers
Email: dettmers@gylanix.com
To: bill burke
Subject: NHD707
Message:
Hi Bill,

Great post.

The story that came to us at the DECA cabinet and paint crews was that m was livid and the guy in charge, I dont remember his name, was put through blistering hell by an enraged m. Did he really blow in a major way at some people?

Yes, quite often

I also heard that the plane was next sold to the maharishi mahesh yogi, the t.m. guy. Sound right?

Yes

Did he have a strong aversion to contact outside of his usual
structures?

Yes

You know, just after christmas 79, m had an announcement made to the premies at the St John Church-the premie satsang hall in Miami. The message was 'dont do drugs and dont hang out with those that do.' He did do drugs after that announcement correct?

Yes

Michael

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Date: Sun, Mar 18, 2001 at 15:22:37 (GMT)
From: Cynthia
Email: None
To: bill burke
Subject: WOW bill....
Message:
Hi!

bill, you amaze me. Your memories of those days are so vivid. I remember that when M was in the garage where his fleet was, it was forbidden for anyone to go in there. I don't remember the flower incident, but one time I received a message that Durga ji wanted to talk with him (M). She must have been there in the playroom with the kids, and I had to knock on the door to the ''Garage'' and talk to security, then I walked up to M and Hession, maybe Guy was there too.

The vibe I got was ''what the fuck is she doing here?'' Hession turned beet red (which he did regularly) and M would not look at me, (he always avoided eye contact with me anyway).

I couldn't understand it because even though I was not X-rated, I did have privy to a lot of stuff, including his ETAs to the complex etc., etc.

Regarding the satsang hall. I went there on occasion to get away from the complex and I saw people smoking pot right out in the open outside the building. I, of course, felt quite superior to them at the time. Knowing what I now know about M smoking weed, it cracks me up.

Hope you're well,
Love,
Cynthia

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Date: Mon, Mar 19, 2001 at 04:26:02 (GMT)
From: bill
Email: None
To: Cynthia
Subject: Cynthia,
Message:
Hi Cynthia,
You came to Conn. during elementary school week break, and
so 2 boys were home and I was home as well. I thought about having you over but the Flu was in one boy and moved to the other so I didnt want to expose you.
I had to take care of them. Maybe the next time you come down
to Conn?
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Date: Sat, Mar 17, 2001 at 22:30:32 (GMT)
From: Richard
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: And one more....
Message:
And isn't it true the Hans Dout 707 flying hotel was sold to an arms dealer Kashogian (sp) who ripped DECCA off?
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Date: Sun, Mar 18, 2001 at 00:39:56 (GMT)
From: guy rollins
Email: guy@architx.com
To: Richard
Subject: And one more....
Message:
No.

There was an arms dealer (who lived on Hibiscus Island) who had a B727, I believe. It was serviced at DECA and eventually his unpaid balance did in the company.

I was not involved in the operations of DECA at that time. It had become a 'legitimate' business. We used DECA space and personnel to facilitate other projects for M.

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Date: Sat, Mar 17, 2001 at 22:51:22 (GMT)
From: Cynthia
Email: None
To: Richard and all
Subject: The 707 at DECA
Message:
Hello all,

The last I read on this forum was that the crappy old 707, which pisses me off just to think about it, did not comply with FAA or some other agency's fuel emission standards.

Therefore, ironically, it was sold to the Maharishi of all people, whose principle place of business is in Switzerland, which doesn't have as strict standards as the US for emissions.

Don't take this as fact. I'm too depressed and tired to look it up in the archives, but I know I read this here.

As far as the DECA project is concerned, I still hold much anger toward Maharaji for ruining my health, i.e., physical, emotional and spiritual, and for throwing me out like so much trash, when I couldn't stay awake 24 hours per day, 7 days a week.

It would be helpful if Guy Rollins would respond, because Guy, secrets like these are not meant to be kept.

I worked for/with you personally, I was your freaking secretary, 'scuse me ''administrative assistant.'' Remember? Type type type....run, run, run....all for the big fat gooomraji.

Do you have some kind of ''agreement'' not to tell?

Sorry for my tone. Between my fucked up ISP and the traffic on this site, (which is good), I haven't been able to get a post to post. I've lost over a dozen in the past week, and have all but given up trying to participate in conversations here. Oh well, progress is bittersweet.

Plus, someone very close to me was just diagnosed with late stage cancer and is probably going to die within the next few months, if not sooner. A neighbor of 14 years.

I'm just pissed that I gave so much of myself to that Rotrat! The sack of shit. The rotten son of a bitch. The cocksucking user!

If this post takes, I'll be very surprised. Anyway, sorry again for the tone, I'm angry and sad. PAMs are a wonderful addition to the forum. Don't forget about all the others, especially at DECA, who gave their hearts and especially health to that monster of a personality cult leader.

Cynthia, in a bad mood today

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Date: Mon, Mar 19, 2001 at 03:00:54 (GMT)
From: Francesca
Email: None
To: Cynthia
Subject: Bad mood
Message:
Cynthia, you said:
Plus, someone very close to me was just diagnosed with late stage cancer and is probably going to die within the next few months, if not sooner. A neighbor of 14 years.

I sympathise. The same thing happend to me recently -- my father is in hospital as I write this, where he has been (except for several weeks in a nursing home) since Feb 8. That's only one of many things going on in my circle, but the closest to home.

PS Sometimes you can get the posts back if you use the back and/or forward button. Also, if you are afraid of losing a post, copy your text (use either the edit functions on the taskbar or your right-click menu). Then if the post goes bust, you've got your text to try, try again.

Your input is valuable. Keep posting.

Love, Francesca

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Date: Sun, Mar 18, 2001 at 00:48:48 (GMT)
From: guy rollins
Email: guy@architx.com
To: Cynthia
Subject: The 707 at DECA
Message:
Gee, I'm starting to feel like Erika (yesterday)....:-)
*******
The last I read on this forum was that the crappy old 707, which pisses me off just to think about it, did not comply with FAA or some other agency's fuel emission standards.

Therefore, ironically, it was sold to the Maharishi of all people, whose principle place of business is in Switzerland, which doesn't have as strict standards as the US for emissions.
*****
This is essentially correct. However, I believe the B707's engines did not pass new FAA noise regulations. I believe it was sold to be used in SE Asia -- but I'm not positive.
*****
As far as the DECA project is concerned, I still hold much anger toward Maharaji for ruining my health, i.e., physical, emotional and spiritual, and for throwing me out like so much trash, when I couldn't stay awake 24 hours per day, 7 days a week.

It would be helpful if Guy Rollins would respond, because Guy, secrets like these are not meant to be kept.
*****
I'm not sure what secrets that I have access to.

I agree with you about the 24/7 schedule. It was the hardest and longest I've ever worked.
*****
Do you have some kind of ''agreement'' not to tell?
*****
I'm not sure what I'm holding back....?

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Date: Sun, Mar 18, 2001 at 02:24:35 (GMT)
From: Cynthia
Email: None
To: Guy and Michael
Subject: Guy and Michael, Thank you for your exchange...
Message:
Hello,

Thanks for filling in some details about the DECA project and the 707. Working in the little office in Hialeah, I often heard things, but like you Guy, my memories are very vague on certain points.

I often wonder, though, especially about you, Guy, how you felt during those times. Rather, I should ask you how you feel now about those times. Guy, I remember Maharaji ridiculting you about not being an aviation architect, but something about only knowing about building houses. It's those types of things, not secrets, but feelings now about that kind of ridicule.

Guy, I know you are a quiet person, so I won't press you. But I have to validate for you that I often saw the stress on your face, after having met with M, and probably been given the riot act. I don't ask you to reveal anything personal, if it makes you uncomfortable.

I hope your life is well and your family, too. I am very angry at Maharaji. I recently discovered yet another belief system that HE ingrained in me and it just makes me mad that he was so abusive on every level.

That's all,
Thanks again,
Cynthia

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Date: Sun, Mar 18, 2001 at 06:17:08 (GMT)
From: guy rollins
Email: guy@architx.com
To: Cynthia
Subject: Guy and Michael, Thank you for your exchange...
Message:
Cynthia, I'll go into this another time. Remind me.

Good night and thanks ALL for the exchange.

Guy

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Date: Sun, Mar 18, 2001 at 03:19:43 (GMT)
From: Connie
Email: None
To: Cynthia
Subject: Cynthia, just want to say
Message:
that I have appreciated all your posts. They have helped me.

I always look at posts from those who have been posting for a few years.

As well as posts from recent 'non-famous' exes.

Those very human posts, I call Primo Levi ones, some being written in the same spirit. People finding their way back to their roots and loved ones, surveying the landscape, people and climate as they pass by.

Of course the infamous PAMS.

Though much has changed superficially, we were all bound together by the same belief and belonged to the same cult.

Everyone has their perspective, and wherever they were in the heirarchy, does not dismiss what they have to say.

In another thread, something has been said about all the people hurt. I don't know if those in 'privileged positions' can even begin to take that in. I hope so. I think one of the reasons people fought and politicked for those positions was because everyone knew you were treated better, and lets face it, no one wants to be hurt or treated badly. When you look back and remember the hope and idealism that brought you, and how that was crushed learning the rules to stay in the game, it's not easy to come to terms with.

Everyone somewhere in them knew the score.

It just made it more sanitized to put the spiritual words of times past, or the corporate speak ones used today, than to say it for what it was and is - survival of the fittest.

Hard news to hear about your friend.

All the best - I am in a bad mood too, want to smash a few plates against a wall!

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Date: Sun, Mar 18, 2001 at 20:14:15 (GMT)
From: Cynthia
Email: None
To: Connie
Subject: Connie, just want to say
Message:
Hi Connie,

In no way do I think that PAMs had it ''easier'' than non-PAMs. In fact, based on what I've heard here, if a premie was X-rated, there was much pressure and isolation.

Sometimes I get impatient when a ''famous'' ex-premie arrives here; I usually push too hard, and well, yesterday was a tough day for me. They get barraged with questions, and sometimes, one can't get a word in edgewise. I won't mention names:)))))

I remember times when Guy Rollins and Jim Hession would come walking out of Maharaji's office at DECA (both locations) and they would be absolutely stressed out, frazzled, and still had to go on. And god knows what Maharaji had just ordered them to do that day, or what ridiculing they took. I heard some of the ridiculting (I can't seem to stop making that typo!!::))) that went on from M to PAMs. In the presence of the rank and file premies, I'm sure M meant to be demeaning and humiliating (not humbling). Fact is, M's a creep.

I haven't been posting here for years, but I've been here now for several months after a difficult couple of starts. No big deal. I'm a pretty ''what you see is what you get'' type of person; trouble with only seeing words is that we don't get to see the expressions, tone of voice, etc. No emoticons!

Basically, Maharaji is a royal shithead and was a brat then and now, and a bastard to many premies, not only honchos. It did filter down. For the record, I don't believe it was their fault (the PAMs), I place the blame right at M's dirty little rotten feet!

Thanks for your concern about my friend,
Love,
Cynthia

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Date: Sun, Mar 18, 2001 at 21:19:02 (GMT)
From: Connie
Email: None
To: Cynthia
Subject: Agree a hundred percent that
Message:
'Basically, Maharaji is a royal shithead and was a brat then and now, and a bastard to many premies, not only honchos. It did filter down. For the record, I don't believe it was their fault (the PAMs), I place the blame right at M's dirty little rotten feet'

You sound like you've been posting for years (this is a compliment).

I'm finding it not easy to write here, I know what I am trying to express, the emotion that is with some of the posts I write, and somehow they seem to get misinterpreted. I've been told by Pat that I am circumspect and dry, that really offended me, as some postings were akin to labour for me!

Best wishes.

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Date: Mon, Mar 19, 2001 at 03:06:19 (GMT)
From: Francesca
Email: None
To: Connie
Subject: Your input is valuable
Message:
I have benefitted greatly from it. Mwah! A kiss to you!

Francesca

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Date: Sun, Mar 18, 2001 at 23:31:45 (GMT)
From: Thelma
Email: None
To: Connie
Subject: Connie, ignore Pat. He's a prim old church lady NT
Message:
j
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Date: Sun, Mar 18, 2001 at 22:51:59 (GMT)
From: Katie H.
Email: None
To: Connie
Subject: Connie, your posts are great!
Message:
Don't know why Pat has been trying to get the women on here all fired up - he may get more than he bargained for :)!

I tend to express strong emotions in a rational way while posting - most of the time, anyway :). I actually think it makes it easier to communicate - especially when I'm disagreeing with someone.

Take care,
Katie H.

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Date: Sun, Mar 18, 2001 at 23:33:31 (GMT)
From: Pat Conlon
Email: None
To: Katie H.
Subject: Thelma's getting all the womyn fired up because
Message:
Hell hath no fury like a woman scorned!
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Date: Sun, Mar 18, 2001 at 22:07:53 (GMT)
From: Connie
Email: None
To: Connie
Subject: well I did, I'm still posting, thanks heaps nt
Message:
aaaaa
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Date: Sun, Mar 18, 2001 at 21:48:02 (GMT)
From: Richard
Email: None
To: Connie
Subject: Connie - ignore Pat - I love your posts nt
Message:
nt
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Date: Sun, Mar 18, 2001 at 03:27:58 (GMT)
From: Richard
Email: None
To: Cynthia
Subject: Cynthia you said 'Maharaji ridiculting you'
Message:
ridiculting = another word for the EPO glossary. Good slip there.
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Date: Sun, Mar 18, 2001 at 15:28:13 (GMT)
From: Cynthia
Email: None
To: Richard
Subject: Richard--Good Catch...
Message:
I knew I had a typo but I didn't look at it nor notice the ''slip.''

Today's a better day...

Love,
Cynthia

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Date: Sun, Mar 18, 2001 at 18:33:21 (GMT)
From: Pat Conlon
Email: None
To: Cynthia
Subject: Have you noticed how many hilariously
Message:
and serendipitously accurate typos turn up? We must be synchronized with a playful universe.
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Date: Sun, Mar 18, 2001 at 19:57:06 (GMT)
From: Cynthia
Email: None
To: Pat Conlon
Subject: Pat: Ridiculting was a good one....
Message:
if I do say so myself.

How are you? Pretty busy board these days, eh?

Love,
Cynthia

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Date: Sun, Mar 18, 2001 at 20:54:31 (GMT)
From: Pat Conlon
Email: None
To: Cynthia
Subject: Cynthia and ''exited utterances''
Message:
I fine thanks and I hope you are too. Hope you're having as much fun on FV as I am.
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Date: Mon, Mar 19, 2001 at 01:27:28 (GMT)
From: Cynthia
Email: None
To: Pat Conlon
Subject: Hi Pat
Message:
This Forum has been ripping along. I haven't been having fun because I couldn't post, that is, I couldn't submit most of my messages, so I got frustrated and pissed.

But things seem to be slower today or at least faster for me. I had a few brews tonight, don't mind me...made a great corned beef dinner tonight, had company and fun.

I'm glad to hear you're well,
Love,
Cynthia

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Date: Sun, Mar 18, 2001 at 01:04:40 (GMT)
From: Richard
Email: None
To: guy rollins
Subject: Thanks for answers Guy /nt
Message:
nt
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Date: Sat, Mar 17, 2001 at 21:08:38 (GMT)
From: Richard
Email: None
To: donner
Subject: Donner - thank you for some answers
Message:
Reading your responses to la-ex's questions took me back through those times and put a lot of myths to rest. Thank you for sharing your recollections and perhaps unloading some old pain.

Richard

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Date: Sat, Mar 17, 2001 at 21:03:57 (GMT)
From: Dermot
Email: None
To: Michael
Subject: Thanks michael for the time and effort
Message:
A long post to write .....but very illuminating. Thanks a lot.

Dermot

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Date: Sat, Mar 17, 2001 at 22:41:14 (GMT)
From: donner
Email: None
To: guy rollins
Subject: guy rollins, there are some
Message:
quetions for you in this thread. got a moment?
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Date: Sat, Mar 17, 2001 at 23:49:13 (GMT)
From: guy rollins
Email: guy@architx.com
To: donner
Subject: guy rollins, there are some
Message:
I've been working. I know you think I'm always on the Internet, but not true ;-)

I'll start answering...

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Date: Sat, Mar 17, 2001 at 22:52:29 (GMT)
From: Joe
Email: None
To: donner
Subject: Hey Donner,
Message:
I've been enjoying hearing your perspective. Very helpful.

I have another question for you.

When I was community coordinator in Miami in 1979 and 1980, Dennis Marciniak told me that the FBI was observing the Miami satsang hall because so much drug dealing was going on there. Apparently, there were undercover agents IN satsang. I was told to cooperate with them, which I did.

Also, he told me that the two festivals in Kissimmee were also targets of investigation because of the amount of drugs coming into the festivals on the charters from South America, that were apparently being sold right on the ground of the festival.

Did you ever hear anything about either of those things?

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Date: Sun, Mar 18, 2001 at 07:21:41 (GMT)
From: bill burke
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: Miami vices-the drug/fed's/premies connection
Message:
There WERE some big drug dealers that were friends with premies and also some were premies.
Under the -friends of premies- catagory, there were 5 vietnam vets that used to bring drugs into the miami area using helicopters, ships and cigarette boats. The one that had a car dealership in Palm Beach as a cover, disappeared (died)during a tripto colombia. Another had some property in soulth carolina where he had a pond where he kept a lot of his money.--in the water.
He paid a hefty bail with wet cash once.
Later,I tried to remember where abouts he said it was. And what his name was....but to no avail!

Those I knew who were dealers included the now deceased C. B., the most handsome premie in premiedom by far. (He wanted
to have sex with me but I am not that way, luckily! He died of AIDS not long after.) HE traveled to Columbia as a co-pilot with a premie and they landed on the return flight on the island that
was half commandeered by Carlos Ledher. He was one of the 3 big names of the Medillian drug cartel. The others being a guy named _________ the Mexican and the other being --oh what is his name, he was the biggest name and you all have heard it. He was finally killed.

THAT no doubt is why FED's would have sniffed around if there were FED's sniffing around. I only met these people because I lived in Coconut Grove in a Mansion renting a room from a premie I knew while I commuted to DECA every day during november 1979.
I found a cottage across the street from DECA and rented that.
So ended my 'freindship' with those guys.

Carlos Lehder was infatuated with C.B. because they both have some German heritage and also that shared mano e mano thing. Carlos, now permanently in a FED. max security prison, is studying the German language.

As a side note, I was not a druggie! Ask Cynthia.

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Date: Sun, Mar 18, 2001 at 03:47:16 (GMT)
From: donner
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: Hey Donner,
Message:
yes, i heard about the miami satsang hall being a target of suspicion but never heard what came of it if anything...and nothing about kissimiee and drugs.
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Date: Sat, Mar 17, 2001 at 16:55:20 (GMT)
From: La-ex
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: Margaret Singer on Cults..Part#4 (Yowser!)
Message:
I am posting Margaret Singer on Cults, part #4, before part #3, because it is so direct and in my opoinion, 'right on'.
Part #3 will take a little longer to 'boil down', as it is longer.

This is reprinted directly, in it's entirety..(not too long)


'The net reslut of cult involvement, we are told repeatedly, is that the recruits experience and display a marked impairment, even a regression, in their capacity to think logically and independently.
In fact, it is often more or less suggested that converts have altogether lost the capacity to think for themselves in any sustained way.
In some cases Enroth goes so far as to propose that there is evidence (unspecified) of a loss of basic cognitive skills, like the ability to read and write at normal levels.'

'Certainly the recruits are thought to have mortgaged their futures by interrupting their educations, losing their possessions, and damaging their health, in return for shoddy, if not false, spiritual goods.
Converts characteristically display a long-term emotional flatness, we are told, and become deeply alienated from their families and past friends.
In some cases, we are warned, the destabilizing recruitment milieu has introduced true states of psychopathology, ranging from blackouts and phobias through schizophrenic episodes to severe depression and even suicide.'

'In the literature and the presentations of the anti-cult movement, the bottom line is stereotypically clear: with few exceptions, cult recruiters use deception along with sophisticated and powerful techniques of influence to find and exploit the personal vulnerabilities, deficiencies, or just desires of potential converts, with results that are always socially and psychologically damaging'

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Date: Sat, Mar 17, 2001 at 18:05:42 (GMT)
From: Mercedes
Email: None
To: La-ex
Subject: Margaret Singer on Cults..Part#4 (Yowser!)
Message:
Wow, this hit right home. It makes me so ANGRY, thanks La-ex. I think I need to read the whole book.
It is scary and spooky and the fact is I was involved for years, and now I am finally functioning as an adult in my forties, fuck, fuck, fuck you Maharaji.
I am glad I am OUT.
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Date: Sat, Mar 17, 2001 at 17:40:37 (GMT)
From: Francesca
Email: None
To: La-ex
Subject: Yowser is right -- missed your first thread -(OT)
Message:
what is the source of this material?
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Date: Sat, Mar 17, 2001 at 16:40:45 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: Erika deserves a lot of credit
Message:
Down below, I asked Erika how she felt about the prospect that Maharaji would now likely know, via his spies (as in surveillance and recon, not infiltration), that she had publically dared to say:

I hope that M at some point publicly acknowledges his own evolution in understanding and apologizes for whatever confusion it has caused.

to which she gamely replied:

Funny you should mention this. In fact, I was planning on telling him this, and have already drafted a letter to that effect. In fact I assume it's quite likely he might read stuff on this site, and might have already read my post.

Someone in email to me suggested that Erika was a bit much, what with her air kisses to former PAM friends ('mwa', 'mwa') and the like. I just want to say that it really must take some laudable courage for her to do this. Especially, given her FOG or PAM -- or FOFOG or PAPAM -- 'status' (using the word advisably).

Of course one wonders what kind of answers someone like Erika could live with. But that's the next chapter, isn't it?

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Date: Sat, Mar 17, 2001 at 23:02:40 (GMT)
From: Erika
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: SOMEBODY TAKE A PICTURE
Message:
Jim,

OMYGOD, you wrote a positive post to a pwk. Is that legal?

Anyway, thanks. It will be very interesting to see if M responds to my letter, or if not, whether it functions as one in a series of things that may cause him to reflect and change in some ways.

And just a point of clarification...I was not the one starting all this air kissing, I'll have you know...it was Richard, teacher, or Pat or somebody...not me...nosirree.....

Erika

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Date: Sun, Mar 18, 2001 at 21:34:07 (GMT)
From: suchabanana
Email: None
To: Erika
Subject: 'scuse me while I kiss the sky... (mt
Message:
mt
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Date: Sun, Mar 18, 2001 at 11:12:03 (GMT)
From: janet
Email: None
To: Erika
Subject: why not go up and see him yourself? can you?
Message:
if you have the kind of relationship with him that you described, could you make an appointment to go talk to him personally?
if by chance you could, could you carry some of our concerns to him? specally, his alcoholism, the jagdeo non action, the dishonesty on the EV FAQ's, and ua wanting to see where our money went?
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Date: Sun, Mar 18, 2001 at 01:57:04 (GMT)
From: moldy warp
Email: None
To: Erika
Subject: M won't respond to your letter
Message:
I am pretty sure of that. I Emailed him a few months ago making out I was still into K but having big problems cos I thought he was the Lord and now it appeared he wasn't. This was true for me a few years ago, I just bent the time-line a bit.I also said that if he didn't reply IN PERSON to me I would stop practicing K and thus HE would be responsible for loosing a premie.
So... I got an Email from one of his instructor chaps who said that I was very favoured, because, very unusually, my Email had been urgently referred to an instructor... he IMPLIED that M himself had referred me, but he didn't actually say so... I think I was just expected to be grovellingly grateful. This instructor phoned me and categorically denied that M had ever said he was the Lord, Jesus, Krishna, or anything remotely resembling anything divine. Well bollocks I say.
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Date: Sun, Mar 18, 2001 at 03:58:53 (GMT)
From: Jim :)
Email: None
To: moldy warp
Subject: Yeah, but you're not Erika, are you?
Message:
You're not a FOG, are you, moldy? You're not even a FOFOG as far as I know.

How presumptuous we can be sometimes, huh? Erika has her own relationship with Maharaji and it sure isn't limited to the paramters of yours. When did Maharaji ever give you any one-liner life advice? See?

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Date: Sun, Mar 18, 2001 at 03:40:04 (GMT)
From: Katie
Email: None
To: moldy warp
Subject: Has ANYONE ever gotten a response from M?
Message:
in answer to a letter? I'm really curious. I know that people have gotten some answers to letters, but not from M himself. (I don't count form letters as 'responses'.)

BTW, good story about your e-mail, moldywarp - glad you weren't 'grovellingly grateful' (snicker)!

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Date: Sat, Mar 17, 2001 at 23:23:04 (GMT)
From: JHB
Email: None
To: Erika
Subject: This is weird - Erika, Are you Latvian?
Message:
Not so weird, but in the UK and US Erika is normally spelt Erica, as some responders have done. In Latvia the name is spelt Erika (although the E is long).

In fact, my mother's name is Erika!

Of course, I understand that in Scandinavia and Germany, Erika is also the normal spelling.

But being Latvian is here becoming to mean a state of mind, and thinking about Maharaji's faults, usually leads to this state.

Take the blue pill, Erika!

John.

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Date: Sun, Mar 18, 2001 at 05:21:23 (GMT)
From: Erika
Email: None
To: JHB
Subject: This is weird - Erika, Are you Latvian?
Message:
JHB,

Hi to your mom, who is my tocaya (a word that means 'person having the same name' in Spanish -- isn't it odd there's a word for that?)

My mom named me after Thomas Mann's daughter. She wanted some cool, non-fifties Scandinavian-sounding name, and when she heard Mann's daughter was named Erika, she thought it was cool.

That's my story and I'm sticking to it. (And it's also true.)

Erika

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Date: Sat, Mar 17, 2001 at 23:09:18 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Erika
Subject: You've heard of Fisherman's Friend?
Message:
You know, those little sore-throat lozenges? That's me, Erika. I like to think of myself as the original Premie's Friend. Why, just today Sandy and I went to counselling together.

Mwa!

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Date: Sun, Mar 18, 2001 at 05:22:35 (GMT)
From: Erika
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: You've heard of Fisherman's Friend?
Message:
Jim,

Riiight.

Erika

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Date: Sat, Mar 17, 2001 at 23:56:33 (GMT)
From: Richard
Email: hairy1@ironjohn.com
To: Jim
Subject: Jim, would you like to join EPO men's drum circle?
Message:
Now that you are getting touch with yourself, you may want to join us for a wild man weekend. HO!
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Date: Sun, Mar 18, 2001 at 00:24:40 (GMT)
From: Jim :)
Email: None
To: Richard
Subject: Why, sure. I'll bring an eagle feather (nt)
Message:
ddddddd
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Date: Sat, Mar 17, 2001 at 18:28:22 (GMT)
From: Joe
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Right, but I hope Erika doesn't expect much
Message:
Although I don't think she does.

If the pattern holds, Erika is likely to be ignored by her 'Master.' Of course, there is still the faint hope Maharaji will change his pattern, but I wouldn't bet on it.

I agree, though. I can't imagine what it must be like to be questioning all this now. I did that years ago, and so it's a lot easier to talk about it.

But I think we have to give credit where it's due. Erika, Mel Bourne and Sandy, have all at least publicly tried to get answers for themselves, and that's great.

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Date: Sat, Mar 17, 2001 at 19:46:09 (GMT)
From: Marianne
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: Height of presumptuousness
Message:
It is the height of presumptuousness for Erika to assume she can wrest an apology for harm done from Captain Rawat when the direct plea of someone like Susan was ignored. Should Rawat decide to 'apologize' in light of a letter from Erika, it would be a grave insult to people like Susan and Abi. Remember, Rawat and the cult are denying that any of this occurred.
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Date: Sat, Mar 17, 2001 at 20:03:56 (GMT)
From: Susan
Email: None
To: Marianne
Subject: Erika's proccess
Message:
Marianne,

I really don't see it that way. I think it has been a part of the exiting proccess for many who have left the cult to write Rawat and 'try' for that response. Of course I doubt Rawat will respond to Erika, he didn't respond to Donner, or Joe, or Jim, or Dettmers, or me. It is kind of like the MRC letter, we asked him to do what is reasonable, and right, and his answer was to ignore it. Ignoring it is an answer. And Erika, she may need to know, in a personal way, that she too, will be ignored. I really do not see it as presumptuous.

If Rawat were to respond to Erika, and as Donner said, don't hold your breath Erika, but if he were I would see it as a desperate move on his part. I think the walls of his castle are tumbling down, and we may see a change in stragey that reflects this. If he were to finally answer in an honest way....I'd say great. But I think if he were to answer it would be in a blame others for his problems deflect responsibility I never said I was God way...a non answer. He has shown no sign of conscience or character up till now it is late in the game to develop it. I would say no answer is what is most likely, and second would be something akin to EV 'FAQ' frequently avoided questions.

Anyway, for many ex's in the past posing the tough questions to the guru has been part of the exit proccess....I hope she does it.

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Date: Sat, Mar 17, 2001 at 22:32:27 (GMT)
From: Elan Vital
Email: None
To: Susan
Subject: You stole this line from Elan Vital
Message:
EV 'FAQ' frequently avoided questions.

You cracked the code, but you may be hearing from our lawyers.

ELAN VITAL: Harboring only a limited number of pedophiles since 2001.

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Date: Sat, Mar 17, 2001 at 20:09:01 (GMT)
From: Pat Conlon
Email: None
To: Susan
Subject: Erika's proccess - Susan's voice of reason
Message:
Thanks Susan. When premies post here it's a sure sign that they are questioning. Nagging and browbeating them is like criticizing a smoker who is trying to quit. It just makes them more defensive. Being reasonable with premie posters is all I can do.
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Date: Sat, Mar 17, 2001 at 20:28:23 (GMT)
From: Dermot
Email: None
To: All
Subject: letters sent letters received
Message:
Yeah I remember writing a mega letter to m when I was in the ashram in the 70's....I also wrote to maharaj charan singh at the same time ...one of the radha saomi gurus I was contemplating following in about 1970 ( before I got K).....lo and behold I got a short but courteous and contextually accurate reply from charan singh but zilch from m.

At the time I blamed myself thinking I wasnt pure enough , sincere enough .....to get a reply.It never occurred to me that he just doesnt give a shit hahaha ...

I'm discovering now that he never bothers to reply to ANYONE....

I mean if he doesnt even reply to the michaels et al ...people he's actually known personally...well...what chance?

I can imagine some premies reading us now thinking.....who do they think they are ?... expecting a reply from him ...why dont they just do what he says and not be so arrogant.

.....it's not us who's arrogant.......it's him.

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Date: Sun, Mar 18, 2001 at 02:00:21 (GMT)
From: moldy warp
Email: None
To: Dermot
Subject: letters sent letters received
Message:
most definitely so Dermot - see for example my post above in this thread, love Mold
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Date: Sat, Mar 17, 2001 at 20:14:19 (GMT)
From: Marianne
Email: None
To: Pat Conlon
Subject: I don't think I'm browbeating
Message:
Hey, I see things differently, that's all. I'm hardly being mean and vicious. Go back to complaining about Jim, Mr. Nice and Reasonable Today!

xoxoxo, Marianne

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Date: Sat, Mar 17, 2001 at 20:20:25 (GMT)
From: Pat Conlon
Email: None
To: Marianne
Subject: Hey, Marianne stop raining on my parade
Message:
of sentimental Irish niceness on this my high holy day. At the stroke of midnight I will turn in a devilish dervish of nastiness.
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Date: Sat, Mar 17, 2001 at 20:25:25 (GMT)
From: Marianne
Email: None
To: Pat Conlon
Subject: Oh Patty/Paddy Boy!
Message:
Have a wonderful time, on this, your special Saint's Day. If I was in SF, I'd stop by and have a shot of Jamesons with you. Then I'd pinch your ass and blame it on the little people (of which I am one!)

Love, Marianne

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Date: Sat, Mar 17, 2001 at 18:34:22 (GMT)
From: Francesca
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: yes, Sandy has gained my respect over time n/t
Message:
n/t
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Date: Sat, Mar 17, 2001 at 19:35:06 (GMT)
From: Richard
Email: None
To: Francesca
Subject: Sandy has gained my respect over time - ditto n/t
Message:
nt
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Date: Sat, Mar 17, 2001 at 19:47:52 (GMT)
From: Pat Conlon
Email: None
To: Richard
Subject: Sandy has gained my respect over time - ditto n/t
Message:
k
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Date: Sat, Mar 17, 2001 at 19:48:56 (GMT)
From: Pat Conlon
Email: None
To: Pat Conlon
Subject: And so have Mel Bourne and Deputy Dog n/t
Message:
y
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Date: Sat, Mar 17, 2001 at 21:52:46 (GMT)
From: YrReG
Email: pronounced'urge'
To: Pat Conlon
Subject: I'm developing feelings of esteem for Djuro
Message:
asks some good questions, is enigmatic and laconic
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Date: Sun, Mar 18, 2001 at 00:28:53 (GMT)
From: Thelma
Email: None
To: YrReG
Subject: I'm developing feelings of esteem for Catweasle
Message:
aka Victoria Bitter. She's such a sweet pussy with that toned bod of hers. Pity they didn't declaw her at the vet first.
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Date: Sun, Mar 18, 2001 at 07:44:53 (GMT)
From: Francesca
Email: None
To: Thelma
Subject: But if you like Mili, your are a PREMIE PLANT! n/t
Message:
vanilli
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Date: Sun, Mar 18, 2001 at 10:35:16 (GMT)
From: Thelma
Email: None
To: Francesca
Subject: But if you like Mili, your are a fruit, nut or
Message:
vegetable.
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Date: Sat, Mar 17, 2001 at 20:08:04 (GMT)
From: YrReG
Email: pronounced 'urge'
To: Pat Conlon
Subject: Purina Ciao
Message:
Yes we all love the little premie puppies now and many of them are indeed learning their manners, although lil Shppie still pees on the hall runner once in a while.

One must recall, however, the many months of howling and whimpering we've put up with; how many piles we've cleaned off the carpet, all the holes dug in the backyard, and how many shoes have been chewed beyond recognition.

But I can see you are using the new 'clicker' technology to train the little sweety pies. I hear it works very well. I'm from the 'swat their butts and rub their nose in it' school, myself. That works, too.

It take TIME to do this and it's not easy. Some of the exes here are DEDICATED to this, don't you know, and have been doing it for years.

Nowsaygooddoggooddog

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Date: Sat, Mar 17, 2001 at 20:11:22 (GMT)
From: Pat Conlon
Email: None
To: YrReG
Subject: So rub my nose in it, Gerry
Message:
But it doesn't work for puppy training. Turns them into fear biters like Pussy-weasle.
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Date: Sat, Mar 17, 2001 at 18:19:43 (GMT)
From: Pat Conlon
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Erika deserves a lot of credit. Yes, Jim
Message:
She spent a lot of time yesterday answering everyone's question courteously and with lots of thought. I doubt if she is someone who will knowingly entertain too many illusions for too long.
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Date: Sat, Mar 17, 2001 at 17:31:39 (GMT)
From: Francesca
Email: notinherent@yahoo.com
To: Jim
Subject: I only hope that Erika reads all of the stuff ...
Message:
that's been posted below, that isn't defamatory that she hasn't been able to respond to, for example, Joe's and my posts about revisionism re her brain twister about the 'leave no room for doubt in your mind' commandment.

Also hope she reads my post about darshan. Mind you, I don't expect her to answer them. That would be a bit much and almost better if she doesn't try to have a quick comeback. Since she is of such a different persuasion than 99 percent of the posters here, to answer to all of us would be a horrible chore, and processing what we are saying could lead to a severe pounding headache.

Many of us love her and she loves us. I just hope that in the kiss fest we don't lose sight of the fact that, although she is the most reasonable premie voice to post here in a long time, some of the stuff she is saying is just, well, incredulous in light of the information being posted on this site by credible sources and by little nobodies.

Erika, if your reading this and don't know how this site works, the posts first go inactive and you can get to them with the inactive index at the top of the page. Then they are in the server for a few days until the EPO team can add them to the archives.

Best wishes to you wherever your journey takes you -- f

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Date: Sun, Mar 18, 2001 at 05:40:03 (GMT)
From: Erika
Email: None
To: Francesca
Subject: I only hope that Erika reads all of the stuff ...
Message:
Francesca,

First and most important, why would you refer to yourself as 'a little nobody'? Yikes. the sources I find credible here are those who are thoughtful and open to listening to someone who has a different point of view.

I did want to respond to your post about darshan, and - you'reright - I didn't know what to do with posts going inactive. Your main question, as I recall, was why would I do it if I'm not in some weird faux-70s devotion mode. (I know that's a paraphrase.)

Well, there are two reasons. One is purely hedonistic, on some sort of interior level (internal hedonism?). It's just an amazing experience. If I felt sure I could have the experience I have in darshan by gargling peanut butter, I would gargle peanut butter.

The second is very personal, and I certainly don't expect anyone here to agree with me. Over the years of having darshan, I've coming to feel that touching anyone's feet is a sign of deep respect. I often massage my children's feet to show them my love, and sometimes when my husband and I are sitting end to end on the couch, I hold his feet in my lap. My relationship with M, though it's profoundly different than it used to be, is still important. He's my teacher in the deep experience of my interior life. For me, darshan is a demonstration of deep respect and love. I know that doesn't make sense to most of you, in light of what you feel about M, but there it is.

Erika

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Date: Sun, Mar 18, 2001 at 07:54:54 (GMT)
From: Francesca
Email: None
To: Erika
Subject: Thanks for responding
Message:
It's OK if it doesn't make sense to me -- if it did I'd be kissing his feet right??

But about your kids' feet and your husband's feet I do understand. I do foot and hand reflexology and foot massage, and it is a way of showing love and it is healing as well -- someone who is agitated can sleep like a baby after a good foot rub.

The 'little nobody' thing is tongue in cheek, because that was my role in the 'Mission.'

--f

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Date: Sun, Mar 18, 2001 at 08:04:09 (GMT)
From: Erika
Email: None
To: Francesca
Subject: Thanks for responding
Message:
Francesca,

You're welcome. And I'm really glad to hear you don't consider yourself a little nobody!

My husband gave me a foot rub almost every night when I was pregnant with our first child, all those years ago (today is her 17th birthday!). Now THAT was divine...

Love,
Erika

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Date: Sat, Mar 17, 2001 at 16:52:31 (GMT)
From: Richard
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Erika deserves a lot of credit
Message:
I agree wholeheartedly. I actually nominated her for all time ***BEST*** premie to ever post here and carry on a conversation. Of course, she's the ONLY premie to ever carry on a real conversation here but still, credit is due. I think her entering a dialogue here with practically everyone who responded will cause many fencesitters to question a little more deeply. And it will also cause PWKs to begin questioning. Of course, those close encounters would sound very appealing to 70's PWKs.....

Many topics were covered in that long thread she started. And for the most part, she was treated with the same respect she brought.

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Date: Sat, Mar 17, 2001 at 18:35:23 (GMT)
From: Her teeth are straight
Email: gerry
To: all
Subject: her hair is shiny; she can tell all the ex-prems
Message:
...to kiss her hinnie. (sorry frank)

Know what's really synchronistic?

It's the way that Erica stopped believing goober was the Lord Of the Universe at the same time goober himself ordered everyone to stop saying that. She must have been so in tune and on the Holy Word.

One is tempted to say 'grace' had a big part in her revelation, except we all know (thanks to Erica) it was really all about forming a strong self-identity and listening to our intuitive hearts to form our own opinions, not 'spirituality.'

Ha, what chumps we were to think it had anything to do with spirituality. How I wish I had been as reasonable as Erica. I might have even stayed with the cult myself for 28 years if I had her understanding and reasonableness.

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Date: Sun, Mar 18, 2001 at 05:48:32 (GMT)
From: Erika
Email: None
To: Her teeth are straight
Subject: her hair is shiny; she can tell all the ex-prems
Message:
Gerry,

Your posts are whack
and you are too,
Are you on crack
Or feeling blue?

No, wait, that's not right. What I really meant was:

You love being nasty
While I'm fairly nice,
Let's be synchronistic
And just keep playing our clearly defined roles.

OK, F**K rhyming,

Erika

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Date: Sat, Mar 17, 2001 at 22:42:45 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Her teeth are straight
Subject: High five on that one, brother Gerry
Message:
How I wish I had been as reasonable as Erica. I might have even stayed with the cult myself for 28 years if I had her understanding and reasonableness.

Amen, brother! Amen.

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Date: Sat, Mar 17, 2001 at 19:56:08 (GMT)
From: Pat Conlon
Email: None
To: Gerry
Subject: Ouch, Gerry
Message:
You said: ''I might have even stayed with the cult myself for 28 years if I had her understanding and reasonableness.''

That describes me to a tee. That was a very deep stab and cuts too close to the bone. But it's true. I was too accommodating and libertarian in my opinions of Rev Rawat.

Better get used to us long-timers though. Plenty of us starting to come out of the woodwork. Be kind to us, Gerry.

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Date: Sat, Mar 17, 2001 at 21:19:07 (GMT)
From: Lesley
Email: None
To: Pat Conlon
Subject: Be kind to me too, Pat
Message:
I posted a nasty response to your thread slanging off the aussies!

Look, of course kindness will make someone 'take off their skunk sprayed coat' more easily than 'tough love', but just sitting down and taking more syrup coated skunk spray and not being allowed to puke it up is frankly abusive to us exes, not to mention confusing for those still working their way out of 'the Truman show'.

I really believe that humouring someone is more disrespectful of them than being rude. I really am a nice person, I promise, I even feel guilty when I murder ants! Best regards, Lesley

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Date: Sat, Mar 17, 2001 at 21:27:28 (GMT)
From: Pat Conlon
Email: None
To: Lesley
Subject: Lesley you must have been posting this while
Message:
I was replying to you above. I still think there are so many bad cops here that one or two good cops are needed. But I don't expect the bad cops to change their roles as long as they don't expect me to change mine.
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Date: Sat, Mar 17, 2001 at 21:33:41 (GMT)
From: Lesley
Email: None
To: Pat Conlon
Subject: Oh well said, Pat, and much appreciated xox nt
Message:
asdf
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Date: Sat, Mar 17, 2001 at 21:43:06 (GMT)
From: Lesley
Email: None
To: Pat
Subject: Pat, just found your post in the inactive
Message:
Thanks for missing me! I needed to step back for a bit. I was getting into a bit of an emotional tangle over the forum, feeling a bit confused too.

Went to Sydney, and then 'me, my family and friends be praised' took possession of a beautiful new kiln and we have done two firings, very very happy with the kiln and the results! Love lesley

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Date: Sat, Mar 17, 2001 at 22:07:55 (GMT)
From: Pat Conlon
Email: None
To: Lesley
Subject: Lesley my two best PWK friends are potters
Message:
I'll keep you in mind when they exit. They are like Erika - sooooo nice in UK. So innocent. When I told them they just said ''well of course it's not perfect it's just M and us trying to do our best.'' Oh God!

Glad you're back.

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Date: Sat, Mar 17, 2001 at 20:37:18 (GMT)
From: gerry
Email: None
To: Pat Conlon
Subject: Healing Balm to you and all longtimers, coming in
Message:
from the cold. It's good to keep the stove stoked here at EPO for all the late stragglers-in. It's been a long and dark winter for a lot of folks. Even Erica is tired of freezing her ass off. She's more than welcome to come in, but she's got to leave that skunk-sprayed coat out in the barn, and take off those muddy boots. She'll be fine after a hot shower and a good cry...
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Date: Sat, Mar 17, 2001 at 20:37:05 (GMT)
From: gerry
Email: None
To: Pat Conlon
Subject: Ouch, Gerry
Message:
Pat I'm sorry you stayed in for that long, I really am, don't get me wrong. My heart (as it twere) goes out to all of them pups. Sorry if the analogy was lacking. I have cats. They are pretty much beyond training and suit a hedonistic anarchist like myself.
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Date: Sat, Mar 17, 2001 at 20:19:44 (GMT)
From: Selene
Email: None
To: Pat Conlon
Subject: me too Pat don't feel bad
Message:
Saddest part of all is that especially in the 90s I have no idea WHY I hung around. The premies I knew were, well off somehow.
And there was certainly no experience to be had at the video events. eeeesssshh I'm so happy to be free of them especially.
So why did we hang on?
Me, I have had a history, a terrible time my whole life, of letting go of something I thought was meaningful whether it be a friendship that was actually destructive, whatever. So I figure this was just antoher on of those things, expensive and draining as were the other habits or relationships.

Gerry was right on.

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Date: Sat, Mar 17, 2001 at 20:22:28 (GMT)
From: Pat Conlon
Email: None
To: Selene
Subject: Loyalty, Selene
Message:
I stayed in some pretty nasty relationships because I am such a faithful person but when I turn I turn. Watch out Rawat!
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Date: Sat, Mar 17, 2001 at 21:49:51 (GMT)
From: Selene
Email: None
To: Pat Conlon
Subject: Loyalty I wish (for me I mean)
Message:
I am sure this is the case for you, if you say it is.

Me I think it was my stupidity most of the time and an overblown sense of my street smarts due to the fact that I once had to have them. M did a good job of helping me looooooooose those.
OK time to go enjoy this amazing weather.

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