Forum V: Archive
Compiled: Sun, Mar 25, 2001 at 10:51:45 (GMT)
From: Mar 18, 2001 To: Mar 24, 2001 Page: 3 Of: 5


cerise -:- Jim, you're a hoot! -:- Tues, Mar 20, 2001 at 05:39:17 (GMT)
__ Abi -:- Jim, you're a hoot! -:- Wed, Mar 21, 2001 at 05:52:22 (GMT)
__ Abi -:- Jim, you're a hoot! -:- Tues, Mar 20, 2001 at 14:33:50 (GMT)
__ __ cerise -:- I was there! -:- Wed, Mar 21, 2001 at 10:40:19 (GMT)
__ __ __ Abi -:- I was there! -:- Wed, Mar 21, 2001 at 11:15:45 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ cerise -:- I was there! -:- Wed, Mar 21, 2001 at 12:18:14 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Abi -:- I was there! -:- Wed, Mar 21, 2001 at 15:27:04 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ cerise -:- I was there! -:- Wed, Mar 21, 2001 at 16:46:42 (GMT)
__ __ suchabanana -:- It's nice to hear some premie kids' perspectives! -:- Tues, Mar 20, 2001 at 21:44:57 (GMT)
__ __ __ Abi -:- It's nice to hear some premie kids' perspectives! -:- Wed, Mar 21, 2001 at 01:38:08 (GMT)
__ __ Selene -:- good for you Abi -:- Tues, Mar 20, 2001 at 18:57:52 (GMT)
__ __ __ Abi -:- good for you Abi -:- Wed, Mar 21, 2001 at 01:41:39 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Selene -:- Barbie Deconstucted -:- Wed, Mar 21, 2001 at 02:10:12 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Selene -:- minus typo nt -:- Wed, Mar 21, 2001 at 02:11:31 (GMT)
__ __ Jim -:- Now THAT's funny -:- Tues, Mar 20, 2001 at 14:36:46 (GMT)
__ __ __ Abi -:- Now THAT's funny -:- Tues, Mar 20, 2001 at 14:47:46 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Joe -:- Abi, that's priceless. I can't stop laughing. -:- Tues, Mar 20, 2001 at 23:13:40 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Katie H. -:- Abi, thanks -:- Tues, Mar 20, 2001 at 18:06:07 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Katie H. -:- Oops, I meant MARSHALL received K when he was 7 -:- Tues, Mar 20, 2001 at 18:08:34 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Susan -:- these stories are great Abi -:- Tues, Mar 20, 2001 at 15:37:37 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Abi -:- I liked premies but... -:- Tues, Mar 20, 2001 at 16:45:53 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ cerise -:- I liked premies but...golly gosh! -:- Wed, Mar 21, 2001 at 10:53:35 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Abi -:- I liked premies but...golly gosh! -:- Wed, Mar 21, 2001 at 11:06:07 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Susan -:- oh god me and my friend didn't go that far -:- Tues, Mar 20, 2001 at 17:11:15 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ La-ex -:- Pauline Premie! We need your satsang to discipline -:- Tues, Mar 20, 2001 at 23:34:16 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Jim -:- You two are hilarious but us adults have to work -:- Tues, Mar 20, 2001 at 17:00:26 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Jim -:- I take it you don't know about the group masturbat -:- Tues, Mar 20, 2001 at 15:11:49 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Abi -:- I take it you don't know about the group masturbat -:- Tues, Mar 20, 2001 at 15:45:57 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Nigel -:- This was Rich Neale's dream... -:- Tues, Mar 20, 2001 at 17:15:37 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Francesca -:- A slice of time! THANKS FOR THE MEMORIES -:- Wed, Mar 21, 2001 at 18:52:10 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Abi -:- This was Rich Neale's dream... -:- Wed, Mar 21, 2001 at 01:59:00 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Nigel -:- We are family of wild nobility... -:- Wed, Mar 21, 2001 at 02:57:11 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Abi -:- We are family of wild nobility... -:- Wed, Mar 21, 2001 at 03:12:59 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Francesca -:- Hate to step on the ant BUT -:- Wed, Mar 21, 2001 at 19:03:30 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Nigel -:- 'Pharoah' - GREAT song! -:- Thurs, Mar 22, 2001 at 17:09:00 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Francesca -:- 'Pharoah' - GREAT song! -:- Thurs, Mar 22, 2001 at 17:30:33 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Nigel -:- 'Pharaoh' - GREAT song! (definitely OT) -:- Thurs, Mar 22, 2001 at 18:19:31 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Nigel -:- Sorry, 'Pharaoh' (dyslexic fingers) nt -:- Thurs, Mar 22, 2001 at 17:13:40 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Nigel -:- fa diddly qua-qua! -:- Wed, Mar 21, 2001 at 04:09:16 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Abi -:- fa diddly qua-qua! -:- Wed, Mar 21, 2001 at 04:40:36 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Nigel -:- fa diddly qua-qua! -:- Wed, Mar 21, 2001 at 04:54:13 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ G -:- his unsynchronized dancing -:- Tues, Mar 20, 2001 at 19:07:09 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Francesca -:- we need an MP3 of that song on EPO! LOL n/t -:- Wed, Mar 21, 2001 at 19:06:04 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ G -:- and an animated image of him wobbling! LOL n/t -:- Wed, Mar 21, 2001 at 20:40:19 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Susan -:- tutu on guru -:- Tues, Mar 20, 2001 at 17:22:45 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Susan -:- aha Rich's MIND got the better of him! -:- Tues, Mar 20, 2001 at 17:31:36 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ janet -:- to aid your imagination in visualizing... -:- Wed, Mar 21, 2001 at 06:06:42 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Pat Conlon -:- aid your imagination in visualizing...fixed link -:- Wed, Mar 21, 2001 at 08:05:09 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ cq -:- aid your imagination in visualizing...fixed link -:- Wed, Mar 21, 2001 at 19:57:06 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Abi -:- aha Rich's MIND got the better of him! -:- Wed, Mar 21, 2001 at 02:06:08 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Nigel -:- Prost, susan! Fantasia indeed... -:- Wed, Mar 21, 2001 at 01:51:36 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ G -:- something like this? -:- Tues, Mar 20, 2001 at 19:25:46 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Susan -:- his physical form -:- Tues, Mar 20, 2001 at 16:21:16 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Joe -:- You think he was ugly THEN? -:- Tues, Mar 20, 2001 at 23:10:16 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Abi -:- You think he was ugly THEN? -:- Wed, Mar 21, 2001 at 01:51:30 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Abi -:- his physical form -:- Tues, Mar 20, 2001 at 16:43:14 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Francesca -:- Hon this is worse than growing up Catholic! -:- Wed, Mar 21, 2001 at 19:13:53 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Susan -:- this is priceless -:- Wed, Mar 21, 2001 at 17:12:42 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Jim -:- Is Maharaji really gorgeous? Wow. Tough one. -:- Tues, Mar 20, 2001 at 16:00:51 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Abi -:- Is Maharaji really gorgeous? Wow. Tough one. -:- Tues, Mar 20, 2001 at 16:21:15 (GMT)
__ salam -:- So, what do want of jim. -:- Tues, Mar 20, 2001 at 13:04:32 (GMT)
__ __ cerise -:- I did ok in my exams thanks -:- Tues, Mar 20, 2001 at 13:26:26 (GMT)
__ Pat Conlon -:- Cerise! Hi sis. Sorry I jumped on you other day -:- Tues, Mar 20, 2001 at 06:20:44 (GMT)
__ __ cerise -:- Cerise! Hi sis. Sorry I jumped on you other day -:- Tues, Mar 20, 2001 at 13:37:37 (GMT)
__ __ __ Pat Conlon -:- Cerise! Well, don't be shy or nervous -:- Tues, Mar 20, 2001 at 19:52:34 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ cerise -:- thanks P, I'm chilling -:- Wed, Mar 21, 2001 at 12:06:07 (GMT)
__ janet -:- how old are you? tell us about your life. -:- Tues, Mar 20, 2001 at 06:02:00 (GMT)
__ __ cerise -:- how old are you? tell us about your life. -:- Tues, Mar 20, 2001 at 13:58:06 (GMT)
__ __ Mercedes -:- Key word: Cult -:- Tues, Mar 20, 2001 at 06:52:10 (GMT)
__ __ __ cerise -:- Key word: Cult -:- Tues, Mar 20, 2001 at 14:16:12 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Jim -:- I can answer that one, young lady -:- Tues, Mar 20, 2001 at 15:05:45 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ cerise -:- you shore can! -:- Wed, Mar 21, 2001 at 10:23:30 (GMT)

suchabanana -:- Breathing: just what the doctors recommended... -:- Tues, Mar 20, 2001 at 04:12:34 (GMT)
__ Pat Conlon -:- transcend dental medication? Oh no I'm starting -:- Tues, Mar 20, 2001 at 09:41:42 (GMT)

Gregg -:- Breathing and Shitting -:- Tues, Mar 20, 2001 at 02:48:40 (GMT)
__ Jerry -:- Breathing and Shitting -:- Tues, Mar 20, 2001 at 19:19:27 (GMT)
__ __ Robyn -:- Breathing and Shitting -:- Wed, Mar 21, 2001 at 11:24:02 (GMT)
__ __ Francesca -:- I think focusing on the breath .... -:- Wed, Mar 21, 2001 at 00:59:41 (GMT)
__ __ __ Jerry -:- But you're already there -:- Wed, Mar 21, 2001 at 02:26:19 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Francesca -:- Easy to say -:- Wed, Mar 21, 2001 at 03:15:16 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Jerry -:- Wait a second, Francesca -:- Wed, Mar 21, 2001 at 12:34:40 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Francesca -:- One other point I forgot to clarify -:- Wed, Mar 21, 2001 at 18:33:11 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Francesca -:- I think I get you but we're not talking the same -:- Wed, Mar 21, 2001 at 17:34:07 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Gregg -:- Easy to say -:- Wed, Mar 21, 2001 at 03:25:13 (GMT)
__ __ __ Thelma -:- Are you so sage all the thyme? Groan NT -:- Wed, Mar 21, 2001 at 01:41:16 (GMT)
__ __ __ Gregg -:- Your two cents are priceless (nt) -:- Wed, Mar 21, 2001 at 01:27:43 (GMT)
__ __ Gregg -:- the PreBotzinger complex -:- Tues, Mar 20, 2001 at 20:20:12 (GMT)
__ __ __ hal -:- Strange you mentioned that -:- Tues, Mar 20, 2001 at 21:35:25 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Jerry -:- Beezlebub? -:- Tues, Mar 20, 2001 at 22:03:14 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Hal -:- Not as bad as Beetlejuice tho Jerry ! nt -:- Wed, Mar 21, 2001 at 00:06:23 (GMT)
__ __ __ Pat Conlon -:- Gregg, I love your posts -:- Tues, Mar 20, 2001 at 20:23:54 (GMT)
__ Joe -:- Following the breath -:- Tues, Mar 20, 2001 at 17:54:13 (GMT)
__ Daneane -:- Breathing and Shitting -:- Tues, Mar 20, 2001 at 07:36:46 (GMT)
__ __ Abi -:- Breathing and Shitting -:- Wed, Mar 21, 2001 at 02:57:36 (GMT)
__ __ Francesca -:- Well said, spot on, Daneane! -:- Tues, Mar 20, 2001 at 18:40:38 (GMT)
__ __ Francesca -:- Well said, Daneane!!!! Thanks! n/t -:- Tues, Mar 20, 2001 at 18:37:43 (GMT)
__ Francesca -:- I agree that breath is a good tool ... -:- Tues, Mar 20, 2001 at 04:48:42 (GMT)
__ Cynthia -:- Breathing and Shitting...I agree.. -:- Tues, Mar 20, 2001 at 04:07:52 (GMT)
__ __ old fart -:- or Fartessa who is older and wiser -:- Tues, Mar 20, 2001 at 08:43:17 (GMT)
__ __ __ Pat Conlon -:- Thanks old fart - farting is also very important -:- Tues, Mar 20, 2001 at 09:38:38 (GMT)

Patrick Wilson -:- Ashram segregation -A 'Caste System' -:- Tues, Mar 20, 2001 at 02:25:17 (GMT)
__ such -:- Shri Hans Rawat was also NOT an ashram premie! (mt -:- Thurs, Mar 22, 2001 at 03:21:00 (GMT)
__ Katie H. -:- Thanks, Patrick - great post, as always -:- Tues, Mar 20, 2001 at 20:26:05 (GMT)

Guy Rollins -:- Did M stress me out...? -:- Tues, Mar 20, 2001 at 02:10:05 (GMT)
__ Tonette -:- Before you go I have a question -:- Tues, Mar 20, 2001 at 03:42:54 (GMT)
__ __ la-ex -:- tonette-some businesses... -:- Tues, Mar 20, 2001 at 04:18:44 (GMT)
__ __ __ A.P. -:- NOT -:- Wed, Mar 21, 2001 at 12:57:30 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ la-ex -:- NOT...not sure about what you say... -:- Wed, Mar 21, 2001 at 17:14:22 (GMT)
__ __ __ bill burke -:- Lots of overlooked details in that list la-ex, -:- Wed, Mar 21, 2001 at 00:32:38 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Katie H. -:- Bill, your essay on DECA -:- Wed, Mar 21, 2001 at 00:47:11 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ bill -:- up to you, didnt rededitor change it?,,,nt -:- Wed, Mar 21, 2001 at 13:47:48 (GMT)
__ __ __ Katie H. -:- I knew one of those guys before he got rich -:- Tues, Mar 20, 2001 at 22:14:06 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ la-ex -:- The DC guy, right?..He's mega, mega rich , but... -:- Tues, Mar 20, 2001 at 23:55:35 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Katie H. -:- I think we talked about this before -:- Wed, Mar 21, 2001 at 00:31:44 (GMT)
__ __ __ Tonette -:- I'm glad to see someone .. -:- Tues, Mar 20, 2001 at 05:00:57 (GMT)
__ __ Guy -:- Before you go I have a question -:- Tues, Mar 20, 2001 at 04:02:03 (GMT)
__ __ __ Richard -:- AMP now = B.E. Aerospace -:- Tues, Mar 20, 2001 at 04:16:37 (GMT)
__ __ __ Guy -:- Before you go I have a question -- further -:- Tues, Mar 20, 2001 at 04:11:28 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Tonette -:- Thank you and..... -:- Tues, Mar 20, 2001 at 04:16:47 (GMT)
__ Richard -:- Great narrative Guy -:- Tues, Mar 20, 2001 at 02:30:18 (GMT)
__ __ Cynthia -:- Many Thanks, Guy... -:- Tues, Mar 20, 2001 at 03:18:38 (GMT)
__ __ __ Scott Cronin -:- Many Thanks, Guy... -:- Tues, Mar 20, 2001 at 03:52:43 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Cynthia -:- I think we know eachother, Scott... -:- Tues, Mar 20, 2001 at 04:20:37 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ scott -:- I think we know eachother, Scott... -:- Tues, Mar 20, 2001 at 04:43:09 (GMT)

donner -:- email -:- Tues, Mar 20, 2001 at 01:24:40 (GMT)
__ Mail sorter -:- Above message is for Erika /nt -:- Tues, Mar 20, 2001 at 02:09:55 (GMT)

swami suchabanana -:- To donner:jigsaw puzzle pieces- m., Fakir + Pieman -:- Tues, Mar 20, 2001 at 01:05:56 (GMT)
__ Way -:- such, please email re Pat Halley (nt) -:- Tues, Mar 20, 2001 at 14:48:31 (GMT)
__ __ Way -:- such, please email me re Pat Halley -:- Tues, Mar 20, 2001 at 17:57:37 (GMT)
__ __ __ such -:- Yaweh! done did it; check your... (mtv -:- Wed, Mar 21, 2001 at 00:53:36 (GMT)
__ donner -:- To donner:jigsaw puzzle pieces- m., Fakir + Pieman -:- Tues, Mar 20, 2001 at 01:20:13 (GMT)

La-ex -:- 2 Mikes: ever see any of this behavior from M?.... -:- Mon, Mar 19, 2001 at 20:27:18 (GMT)
__ donner -:- 2 Mikes: ever see any of this behavior from M?.... -:- Tues, Mar 20, 2001 at 00:36:13 (GMT)
__ __ such -:- remember that day in Detroit? I was there, too... -:- Tues, Mar 20, 2001 at 00:50:49 (GMT)
__ suchabanana -:- On Donner, Blitzmen, and [Halley's] Comet - RSVP -:- Mon, Mar 19, 2001 at 23:56:05 (GMT)
__ __ donner -:- On Donner, Blitzmen, and [Halley's] Comet - RSVP -:- Tues, Mar 20, 2001 at 01:18:33 (GMT)
__ __ __ suchabanana -:- thanks,Michael. r.e.WPC involvement,yes. ALSO... -:- Tues, Mar 20, 2001 at 03:18:08 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ donner -:- thanks,Michael. r.e.WPC involvement,yes. ALSO... -:- Tues, Mar 20, 2001 at 18:24:30 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Bobby -:- Fletchers in India -:- Tues, Mar 20, 2001 at 19:27:24 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Marianne -:- WPC in Detroit -:- Tues, Mar 20, 2001 at 07:13:45 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ such -:- WPC clearly top-down fr Denver. Also,Raja ji angle -:- Tues, Mar 20, 2001 at 09:29:17 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Francesca -:- Spin control -- bad press can be worse than -:- Thurs, Mar 22, 2001 at 04:58:56 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ such -:- Yep, I used to be a news editor... (nt -:- Thurs, Mar 22, 2001 at 05:17:15 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ donner -:- WPC clearly top-down fr Denver. Also,Raja ji angle -:- Tues, Mar 20, 2001 at 18:29:32 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Jim -:- And thank YOU, such. This is better than Puffy -:- Tues, Mar 20, 2001 at 04:27:49 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ such -:- then,m +rajaji posed as gangsters:And it is Divine -:- Tues, Mar 20, 2001 at 06:28:43 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Francesca -:- I'd settle for a fat ass like J-Lo's bro (ot) (nt) -:- Tues, Mar 20, 2001 at 05:45:05 (GMT)
__ __ __ Jim -:- Thanks, Donner -- really makes a difference (nt) -:- Tues, Mar 20, 2001 at 01:35:32 (GMT)

Joe -:- More on the 707/Questions for the Mikes and Guy -:- Mon, Mar 19, 2001 at 19:35:13 (GMT)
__ Michael Dettmers -:- More answers on the 707 -:- Tues, Mar 20, 2001 at 03:18:24 (GMT)
__ __ Joe -:- More answers on the 707 -:- Tues, Mar 20, 2001 at 19:24:23 (GMT)
__ __ Katie H. -:- Thanks so much, Michael -:- Tues, Mar 20, 2001 at 18:26:16 (GMT)
__ __ Joe -:- More answers on the 707 -:- Tues, Mar 20, 2001 at 03:58:56 (GMT)
__ __ __ la-ex -:- recent anecdote about amtext... -:- Wed, Mar 21, 2001 at 05:47:51 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Joe -:- Interesting, La-Ex -:- Wed, Mar 21, 2001 at 18:15:52 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Forum archives -:- Interesting, La-Ex -:- Thurs, Mar 22, 2001 at 00:28:39 (GMT)
__ __ __ Michael Dettmers -:- More answers -:- Tues, Mar 20, 2001 at 13:20:42 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Joe -:- Plane Fundraising -:- Tues, Mar 20, 2001 at 17:10:53 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Joe -:- Cult Businesses -:- Tues, Mar 20, 2001 at 17:20:49 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Richard -:- Joe - about the sale and of AMP and who benefited -:- Tues, Mar 20, 2001 at 17:44:55 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Joe -:- Wow -:- Tues, Mar 20, 2001 at 21:23:54 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Richard -:- M was not the defendant -:- Tues, Mar 20, 2001 at 21:58:52 (GMT)
__ __ __ la-ex -:- Joe- Deltek, amtext... -:- Tues, Mar 20, 2001 at 04:31:22 (GMT)
__ Guy -:- More on the 707/Questions for the Mikes and Guy -:- Tues, Mar 20, 2001 at 02:24:03 (GMT)
__ donner -:- More on the 707/Questions for the Mikes and Guy -:- Tues, Mar 20, 2001 at 00:46:24 (GMT)
__ __ Joe -:- The Broadripple, Oy Vey -:- Tues, Mar 20, 2001 at 00:59:38 (GMT)

Jim -:- Premie as Fight Club (from ELK) -:- Mon, Mar 19, 2001 at 16:45:33 (GMT)
__ Larkin -:- Yes that IS the truth! -:- Tues, Mar 20, 2001 at 12:00:08 (GMT)
__ TD -:- His rhyming dictionary got a good workout (nt) -:- Mon, Mar 19, 2001 at 22:49:29 (GMT)
__ Jerry -:- Premie as Fight Club (from ELK) -:- Mon, Mar 19, 2001 at 20:32:24 (GMT)
__ bill -:- The word 'it' says it all...nt -:- Mon, Mar 19, 2001 at 18:06:58 (GMT)

Susan -:- a respost from Erika and my response -:- Mon, Mar 19, 2001 at 16:45:01 (GMT)
__ Abi -:- well said! -:- Tues, Mar 20, 2001 at 17:11:43 (GMT)
__ Jim -:- Excellent point -- compliments Joe's, in fact -:- Mon, Mar 19, 2001 at 17:28:38 (GMT)

Jim -:- Premie as Basket Case (from ELK) -:- Mon, Mar 19, 2001 at 16:37:38 (GMT)
__ Jerry -:- The crest of a wave -:- Mon, Mar 19, 2001 at 20:53:52 (GMT)
__ __ TD -:- Why do premies ALL turn into bad poets? (nt) -:- Mon, Mar 19, 2001 at 22:24:25 (GMT)
__ __ __ Jerry -:- Because they're disingenuous (nt) -:- Tues, Mar 20, 2001 at 12:36:24 (GMT)
__ __ __ Jim -:- Because they have no standards -:- Tues, Mar 20, 2001 at 04:06:04 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Nigel -:- Because they've forgotten how to feel... -:- Wed, Mar 21, 2001 at 04:23:23 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Cynthia -:- Hi Pat, I used to write volumns of this stuff... -:- Wed, Mar 21, 2001 at 19:25:00 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Pat Conlon -:- Hi Cynthia, did you keep you devotional poems or -:- Thurs, Mar 22, 2001 at 02:18:28 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Scott -:- Because they have no standards -:- Tues, Mar 20, 2001 at 16:46:07 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Pat Conlon -:- Because they have no standards, Jim -:- Tues, Mar 20, 2001 at 10:12:20 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Scott -:- Because they have no standards, Jim -:- Tues, Mar 20, 2001 at 17:09:22 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Pat Conlon -:- Dettmers thinks Rawat is no slouch, Scott? -:- Wed, Mar 21, 2001 at 08:13:15 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Pat Conlon -:- Sorry Scott - another cheap shot. How's Erika? -:- Tues, Mar 20, 2001 at 19:25:26 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ ScottC. -:- Sorry Scott - another cheap shot. How's Erika? -:- Tues, Mar 20, 2001 at 20:12:27 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Pat Conlon -:- Scott, give my love to Cynthia -:- Tues, Mar 20, 2001 at 20:30:13 (GMT)


Date: Tues, Mar 20, 2001 at 05:39:17 (GMT)
From: cerise
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: Jim, you're a hoot!
Message:
Went into the 'Forum Favorites' yesterday, wow, what a lot of stuff. That's one big menu to trawl! Came across this story about a small satellite event of hans jayanti. Jim and a friend went to the hotel where they do the event. The description was exactly like some programs I have been. I felt uneasy in those situations, pissed off, like everyone should had downed a quart of Jack Danniels in the lobbby first. Been in places where the hall's half empty, the pwks half empty robotically going about their holy duty. I've left halls thinking 'fuckwits' then gone and partied with friends feeling holier than shit on a hot afternoon! Other times I've been there, it's kinda, 'wow, I love you guys, you're warm and cuddly and I dig you! M is really cool sometimes but I hate those feelgood picture postcard crap videos with pretty music and rivers and trees though. Jim's description of his night had us in fits he he. Between the humour I can see he's pissed off with the way EV has gone. I go from love to hate emotions constantly in my head but feel ok in between times, mosttimes. I don't see much difference in all chat rooms I go to, have watched forum stuff since school 'computer studies' which we turned into 'cult studies', me and my friends would spend hours trawling the holy sites, Bubba Free John, Master Charles, Gangagi, Papa bloody Ji, John de Rutier (hows about that for a name for the great enlightened one?) yea, I'll bet he roots! There's tons of sacred holy sights full of holy cosmic shit. Nowadays I like the music webs best, some really cool stuff (Van Halen!!) Without trying to be rude, I think you older people in these cult situations are a bit daft, like it's a hangover from the hippy group thing? Maybe you didn't have a war to bond you all together. Us too! Groups, groups that's all we seem to want to be in. Today's younger generation is made up of more lonely individuals I think, at least that's how I feel about it. Rave parties give me headaches for 3 days. Not that lonely is bad, I like it.
I have never suffered the Ashram blues like many of you speaked of. Sounds horrible, why did you do all that stuff? I'd never give my income (when I get one!) to fucking anybody. Not to say there haven't been moments of doom and despair for me in my life, but joining a scene like that? But I'm only a wayward asp daughter of two old pwks. They mix with all sorts of strange dudes into everything so the M+K thing is not the big deal. Dad's generation think they know all about bloody everything, they just smoke and drink and rave. I think K was to calm you down, inner peace and all that? I'll get it when I'm frazzled enough I guess, but I'm not joining EV.org - ex-premie.org or nothing.org thanks! Writing helps clear my head, always has, won prize in yr 12. Some of you guys are good writers and bloody funny. Some of you talk shit and I will ignore your posts! Some of you will ignore me I hope rather than being insulting when I lose the plot. I got angry and bullshitted about being a hacker (dad thinks he is), sorry about that, I'm usually a cool but slightly mad, spunkrat. But I thought I was being spruiked! Honest! Thanks to those of you who were compassionate with me.
btw, the real computer genius (who does xml and some brilliant new code) is a guy called Bryan Taylor at xml2k@yahoo (please don't spam him). I don't know shit about computers, except how to work them. Bryan first taught me about using an Amiga when I was real young, he was the only teacher I really listened to, so I got right into it, became a games superchamp, went crazy. I've smashed more controllers, joysticks, Sega pads and keyboards than Pat Conlon downed drinks on St Patrick's day. My parents used to say, 'you're a tomboy Ceri!' but they never complained that I wasn't cuddling barbie dolls in my bedroom. In future I'd like to share some stuff from other sites if that's ok, we used to compare religious websites and I still have my list that contains some real doozies. It maybe amusing for some of you to see what other groups and cults are raving about. There's a mountaintop cult in NZ that's wwweirdoo!!
Anyone into Mp3s? I've got lots.
There's several computers here, (Dad got an 'inheritance' and went crazy) a Mac powerbook, three Amigas and an iMac. My friends come over and piss about, they interrupt me and post tons of stuff from this one, mainly to Hotmail (we have another isp line, Mum's work)
I'll try to make sure they sign their name if they make comments to your forum (hear that Johnno and Suze?? I got in trouble!!)

For you surfers checking this site out:: the funniest writers I've discovered so far are Roger Drek, AJW, Jim, Moldy Warp and Pat Conlon, though Pat can be a bit agro (you bloody Irish!) but I think he's a total spunk after seeing that 1972 pic, cooool dude! Some of the chicks are lovely, I like you Abi and Mercedes and Katie, stay cool.
I'm supposed to be looking for work now (instead of doing nothing at school he he) so I only surf occasionally, like twice a day instead of ALL DAY :)

Until next time, byeee,
C

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Wed, Mar 21, 2001 at 05:52:22 (GMT)
From: Abi
Email: None
To: cerise
Subject: Jim, you're a hoot!
Message:
Hellllloooow?
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Tues, Mar 20, 2001 at 14:33:50 (GMT)
From: Abi
Email: None
To: cerise
Subject: Jim, you're a hoot!
Message:
Hi Cerise,

you sound really cool. Both my parents were into M and I have some slightly disturbing memories of the festivals we went to. My Hans Jayanti highlight was watching the Shit Shower and Shaves (toilets etc) explode one night as a freak bolt of lightening struck. What seemed like hundreds of naked premies streamed out of the wreckage laughing hysterically and shouting 'Boli Shri Sat Guru Dev Maharaj Ki Jai!!!'. I have to say that even then at the age of 11 my higher self decided Something Is Wrong.

Then there was that time in Rome when all the adults around me were having this gross orgiastic experience as the Lard wobbled about in his kinky Krishna costume and they told me, as they slobbered and cried, that they wanted the whole building to somehow lift off into outer space (because the energy was so high, man) and sort of frolick about the universe... Again my higher self thought quietly, as I sat rigidly in my seat surrounded by blissed out adults, Something Is Wrong. I looked down into the writhing crowd and saw our coach driver, the one who had endured hours upon hours of dreadful singing, satsang that often went something like 'yeah, like it's beautiful, really beautiful, you know what I mean, wow, it's so beautiful', screaming children, all the way from Cornwall. Hours of it. His face was shocked, his mouth open. I'll never forget his face. He was looking at the crowd, everyone else was looking at the Lard. He saw the madness. His p.o.v. was one of many reference points I used until I got to the stage when I realised Something is Very F..... Wrong.

btw do you like sf? Check out Sea as Mirror by my girlfriend Tess Williams. I think you'll like it.

Don't ever stop being a tomboy. I roasted my Barbie Dolls.

Abi

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Wed, Mar 21, 2001 at 10:40:19 (GMT)
From: cerise
Email: None
To: Abi
Subject: I was there!
Message:
Hi Ab, hey guess what I was at HJ 1979!! Don't remember much cos I was not quite 2 (yes two!). We went to Dysneyworld and there's a story abpout how dad shoplifted some great hiking boots from a bloody great supermarket in Kissimmeeee! Sounds like they had a ball he he

there's photo of me at the festival in my stroller i should post it but Pat's put a header saying 'ex premies' and I haven't made it to that status yet, are there any e-x aspirant sites? ha ha mind you, I still wouldn't mind checking K out if I get a chance, you gotta listen for while apparently like in a solid bunch not scattered over 20 years like I have. oh well

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Wed, Mar 21, 2001 at 11:15:45 (GMT)
From: Abi
Email: None
To: cerise
Subject: I was there!
Message:
Hey, why not intiate yourself via the internet. The techniques have been liberated. 'Information demands to be free!'. I've intiated loads of people now and all for free, they don't have to kiss my feet and I don't dance in kinky costumes for them. Also, the 4 techniques can come in useful as party tricks. Try a mass intiation.

After you've done that, then you can rapidly reject the whole thing, call yourself an ex-premie and post your photo.
Voila!

Abi

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Wed, Mar 21, 2001 at 12:18:14 (GMT)
From: cerise
Email: None
To: Abi
Subject: I was there!
Message:
thing is, i dunno if i'd ever feel like I'd gotten the real deal. I've had pms offer me the techniques but it didn't attract me.
there's a new way of getting it but I'd like it from M, then I'd know if it was cool or not. have you got K Abi Did you like it?
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Wed, Mar 21, 2001 at 15:27:04 (GMT)
From: Abi
Email: None
To: cerise
Subject: I was there!
Message:
Yes. I got K when I was thirteen. Apparently I was meant to hyperventilate for the rest of my life and give over my mind to a man called Cpt Ratwat.

Look, you can't really think that if M gives you K something magical will happen. You have been reading this site for a while haven't you?

What can I say about K? Breathing slowly can help you calm down and feel cool. Sticking your tongue down the back of your throat is, well, creepy and it hurts. Applying pressure on your eyeballs is also creepy and possibly bad for your eyes. Sticking your thumbs inside your ears not only looks strange but it is physically uncomfortable. You don't need this stuff to feel OK about yourself or the world.

Go on. Stick your tongue down the back on your own throat and tell me that isn't freaky.

It's is all TOTALLY MAD!!!!!

Get real. Imagine doing it in front of your friends.

Read or write some sf instead but don't follow the Lord of the Universe.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Wed, Mar 21, 2001 at 16:46:42 (GMT)
From: cerise
Email: None
To: Abi
Subject: I was there!
Message:
yea, I've been trawling awhile but I've yet to hear anything that helps me understand K because most talks about M. So you feel that K is just like a nothing experience? Some people here still say they like it a lot but don't like M etc. You talked about it being a pain to do on a physical level but isn't it a spiritual buzzzzzza???

too many conflicting messages for me to get a clear pic but I'm in no rush anyway...
C

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Tues, Mar 20, 2001 at 21:44:57 (GMT)
From: suchabanana
Email: None
To: Abi and Cerise
Subject: It's nice to hear some premie kids' perspectives!
Message:
I feel sad, however, because I wish my own kid would contact me more - now that he's grown up. The m thing played a big part in splitting me and the mum up, way back in the 1970s -- and then was a major factor [a cult!!] in the divorce, too. Very painful and messy business...

Having people post who grew up in the premie environment is an excellent thing for this forum, and it also reflects the ongoing debriefing, support, reflection and personal growth required for many to move on, in spite of ingrained or subliminal conditioning (and even traumas for some). It's also nice to share one's experiences and make friends -- heartfelt empathy.

Love to all the [ex]premie kids.

Peace and lentils,

da lil' swami

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Wed, Mar 21, 2001 at 01:38:08 (GMT)
From: Abi
Email: None
To: suchabanana
Subject: It's nice to hear some premie kids' perspectives!
Message:
Thanks, You're very sweet.

I think my parents broke up because of the cult too. In a way He came first. For a while I was pretty angry with both of them. But time heals. It really does.

peace and lentils

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Tues, Mar 20, 2001 at 18:57:52 (GMT)
From: Selene
Email: None
To: Abi
Subject: good for you Abi
Message:
My good friend, an ex who has stopped posting here, made an amazing sculpture of all her and her daughter's discarded Barbie Dolls. Can't remember what we decided to name it, I think
'Barbie Wired' won but not sure. It was great, parts dismantled and put back together, or not, in various ways. I know it was shown don't know if it got any awards but it should have.

For what it is worth, I am so , ugh do I say it, grateful whatever, that I didn't like the M wobble (good word btw)
And that by the time my kids would have been old enough to see it and question it M had discarded his goofy Krishna image.

The whole dance dance dance thing was a great example of mass hysteria IMO.. I say this because there I was looking at it, waiting to get all carried away, NOT feeling a thing but getting up and swooning anyway. Creepy stupid shit.
I like your posts. Good to see you here.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Wed, Mar 21, 2001 at 01:41:39 (GMT)
From: Abi
Email: None
To: Selene
Subject: good for you Abi
Message:
I like the story about the Barbie Dolls. There is a theory that these dolls brainwash girls into becoming passive victims of patriarchy but like all plastic idols (mentioning no names) they soon get deconstructed.
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Wed, Mar 21, 2001 at 02:10:12 (GMT)
From: Selene
Email: None
To: Abi
Subject: Barbie Deconstucted
Message:
Now That would have been a great name! She tells me that her daughters Barbies were already mangled so kudos to her daughter too.
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Wed, Mar 21, 2001 at 02:11:31 (GMT)
From: Selene
Email: None
To: oops
Subject: minus typo nt
Message:
nt
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Tues, Mar 20, 2001 at 14:36:46 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Abi
Subject: Now THAT's funny
Message:
Good one about your coach driver, Abi. How old were you then?
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Tues, Mar 20, 2001 at 14:47:46 (GMT)
From: Abi
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Now THAT's funny
Message:
I think I was about 14. I always felt slightly ashamed when everyone would fling themselves about when he got dressed up. My mother was always saying 'oh Abi, just get up and dance with us all, it's wonderful!'. But I never did. I don't know how old I was when I first saw the Lard do his Hindu wobble dance, you know the one where he'd sort of stomp about and lift his arms up and down and sort of flap his hands. I didn't know what what going on but I thought, I really did, that he was giving everyone the fingers. I guess, retrospectively, that he was in a way.
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Tues, Mar 20, 2001 at 23:13:40 (GMT)
From: Joe
Email: None
To: Abi
Subject: Abi, that's priceless. I can't stop laughing.
Message:
Thanks for sharing that.

Joe

Who can visualize what you are saying and laughing so hard I have tears in my eyes.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Tues, Mar 20, 2001 at 18:06:07 (GMT)
From: Katie H.
Email: None
To: Abi
Subject: Abi, thanks
Message:
Those were great! (Although I remember the story about the iron bar and the guy deserved that and worse.) Marshall, a former poster, and the children of premies who received K when he was seven, used to say that he could tell Maharaji was faking it when Marshall stood in front of him during darshan. Something another kid would sense immediately, I suppose.

Take care, Abi -
Love,
Katie H.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Tues, Mar 20, 2001 at 18:08:34 (GMT)
From: Katie H.
Email: None
To: Katie H.
Subject: Oops, I meant MARSHALL received K when he was 7
Message:
He still comes around from time to time - you'd probably enjoy talking to him if you haven't met him yet.
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Tues, Mar 20, 2001 at 15:37:37 (GMT)
From: Susan
Email: None
To: Abi
Subject: these stories are great Abi
Message:
anytime you want to share more of the cult through a child's eyes I would love to hear.
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Tues, Mar 20, 2001 at 16:45:53 (GMT)
From: Abi
Email: None
To: Susan
Subject: I liked premies but...
Message:
so many of them seemed a little odd. Children are often a bit uptight about difference and I was surrounded by it. I went to a lot of satsang. Chris V inevitably disrupted the carefully contrived atmosphere of pious devotion with deafening belches and farts, the sad legacy of a macrobiotic diet that had got right out of hand. Roy, a very seedy man in his late fities with a long white beard would just sit there in very roomy shorts flashing away. We hated him so much we eventually managed to lock him in the toilets during a weekend retreat. We turned the lights off and listened to him screaming for release, swearing about brats. We yelled out 'Jai Sat Chit Anand brother!' and ran for it.

There was Pete G an alcoholic Scott who looked like Wurzel Gummage, stole our Tintin comics and chased us about with large sticks chanting 'run rabbit, run rabbit, run, run, run'. We set a trap for him though. Placed a very heavy large iron bar on the top of his door which was of course slightly ajar. Then we waited until he returned to his den and ran off as he collapsed screaming with pain.

We stole from premies, we wound them up, we pretended we were lost orphans at festivals and begged money to get home, we dropped used chewing gum into their hair from windows, we threw their shoes into the toilet, we had meal-ticket cons going on, we ran about at tent festivals early in the morning shouting 'wake up brothers and sisters it's time to MEDITATE!!!', we unpegged tents. Ah, those were the days...

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Wed, Mar 21, 2001 at 10:53:35 (GMT)
From: cerise
Email: None
To: Abi
Subject: I liked premies but...golly gosh!
Message:
Ab you're a fucking hoot!! I'm a well behaved little hussy compared! I can't stop laughing at that story, have to have a little rest from this...sob..I used to pray for someone to fart when I was bored!!!!
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Wed, Mar 21, 2001 at 11:06:07 (GMT)
From: Abi
Email: None
To: cerise
Subject: I liked premies but...golly gosh!
Message:
The farts of the intestinally damaged Chris V would have soon put an end to such subversive thoughts. It was almost as though his body was saying what his mind could no-longer articulate. And they say that the body never lies.
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Tues, Mar 20, 2001 at 17:11:15 (GMT)
From: Susan
Email: None
To: Abi
Subject: oh god me and my friend didn't go that far
Message:
but we had our moments! I think that childlike cannot stand the wierdo in satsang thing must be universal! ( as if we all were not weirdos)

I love your pranks! Very creative! Did Anth give you extra points for ingenuity and creativity?

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Tues, Mar 20, 2001 at 23:34:16 (GMT)
From: La-ex
Email: None
To: Susan
Subject: Pauline Premie! We need your satsang to discipline
Message:
these two young mischievous girls...
It's downright sacreligious and very unsynchronized,as well..

Can you please give some 'Synchro-Sang' to these two young 'knowledge rebels'?

They're really messing up our nice devotional little chat forum here, and it's making me personally ill, to see our Lord treated with such disrespect...

I know that Pauline would have the proper perspective and understanding...

Thanks Pauline...
(remember, spare the 'sang, and spoil the premie...)

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Tues, Mar 20, 2001 at 17:00:26 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Abi
Subject: You two are hilarious but us adults have to work
Message:
bye!
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Tues, Mar 20, 2001 at 15:11:49 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Abi
Subject: I take it you don't know about the group masturbat
Message:
I guess no one told you about the group masturbation back then after Maharaji danced in his Mala? Little pockets of premies got together in various hotel rooms ....

Abi, I know it sounds strange but he was so beautiful, you know? It wasn't a homoerotic thing either, not for me anyway. It was just that, well, YOU saw him. Need I say more? But you were probably a bit too young for all that. Right?

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Tues, Mar 20, 2001 at 15:45:57 (GMT)
From: Abi
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: I take it you don't know about the group masturbat
Message:
Oh, how vile. Puke. What a thought. A daisey chain for Maharaji.

Listen there must have been a lot of kinky sublimation going on. (And don't think I've forgotten you're recent confession...) I remember a couple of premie women who would just drool about his feet and his body. And the men too. Totally besotted. I think it was Lacan who did a wonderful essay on St Teresa and the whole jouissance of the religious moment, the loss of self, the physical surrender.

My mother would faint after darshan. I have to admit that while I kissed his feet many times I always thought how fat and, well, greasy, he looked up close. I tried hard to control the urge to say 'well, hellow, and how are you' - to speak, announce myself as a human being, before I bent down and kissed his feet. I always thought it was a bit uptight of me to want to say something before I committed the intimate act of kissing his feet.

But I do confess that I thought he was the most beautiful creature on the planet. I swooned from time to time and vowed I would be his bride, la, la, la. It was the aura, the whole way he was framed as the God of Love that did it. I mean he isn't really gorgeous is he? Jim!?

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Tues, Mar 20, 2001 at 17:15:37 (GMT)
From: Nigel
Email: None
To: Abi
Subject: This was Rich Neale's dream...
Message:
When I was an aspirant our community had a visit from Rich Neale, crap songsmith by appointment to the Lord of the Universe. He gave the aspirants satsang. During a particularly candid moment Rich told us the dream he had had the night before. He said he had been watching Maharaji on stage, dressed in a tutu like a ballerina, performing these exquisite pirouttes and leaps about the stage... And he was gushing on about this dream and saying how fanatastic, beautiful, elegant the Master was - how in its way the dream was a form of darshan and he was SO blessed to have had it etc.

Make of it what you will. (I know what I think.)

Then we all sang 'IloveyouIloveyouIloveyouIloveyou...thank you for coming today'.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Wed, Mar 21, 2001 at 18:52:10 (GMT)
From: Francesca
Email: None
To: Nigel
Subject: A slice of time! THANKS FOR THE MEMORIES
Message:
Oh god, how awful! Some of the premies had some really disgusting ideas of devotion. And I remember hearing lots of stuff like this from the gopi-fied.

Oh this is a great one Nige! and so typical of some premies. When regular ol' premies had some of these ideations, they were considered bongo, but when instructors had such ideations and dreams ... and it is Divine!

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Wed, Mar 21, 2001 at 01:59:00 (GMT)
From: Abi
Email: None
To: Nigel
Subject: This was Rich Neale's dream...
Message:
Oh, tooo funny!

There were so many earnest young men playing guitars. I remember one, David, who organised childrens satsang at our house and made up special little songs. One was called 'A rose for Maharaj Ji' and he crooned and swooned and bent low over his guitar while we looked around the room and coughed and though oh Jesus give me Adam Ant any day. David went on to tour the world speaking about UFOs...

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Wed, Mar 21, 2001 at 02:57:11 (GMT)
From: Nigel
Email: None
To: Abi
Subject: We are family of wild nobility...
Message:
Hmm, but you have to admit that even 'ant music for ant people' was pretty sad in retrospect, even for 'ant people' (whatever happened to the ant people?)

But I guess anything's better than some premie sister's brother twerp with a guitar teaching kids 'a rose for Mr Rawat'. It's not like the kids can even later put it in their autobiography without feeling stupid by association, is it? I guess that's what the forum's for: where else could you relate this stuff wihout blushing at the sheer embarassingness of it all..?)

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Wed, Mar 21, 2001 at 03:12:59 (GMT)
From: Abi
Email: None
To: Nigel
Subject: We are family of wild nobility...
Message:
Don't knock Adam Ant. It was very politically profound post-punk stuff. 'Don't step on an ant or it'll come looking for you'. In that line we have the whole essence of every revolutionary movement in history, the rebellion of the ants/workers/slaves/premies. And he was much better looking than Rawat.

I don't feel stupid by association though. It was just, um, very interesting.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Wed, Mar 21, 2001 at 19:03:30 (GMT)
From: Francesca
Email: None
To: Abi
Subject: Hate to step on the ant BUT
Message:
years ago when my brother was in college, he worked backstage when rock acts played at the college, so that he could go to the concerts and kind of soak up the vibes.

He had quite a few choice words for Adam Ant, and the way he treated people. To be fair to da Ant, he was stumbling around stoned. But I appreciate the revolutionary ideas -- I remember listening to Volunteers of America by the Jefferson Airplane ('tear down the walls mother*ucker' etc.), possibly at the age you where when you were listing to AA. Revolution is a necessary stage of development (I seem to keep coming back to it) so I appreciate your take on the significance of 'don't step on an Ant.'

Richard Thomson has a cynical song called, 'We're all workin' for the Pharoah' that I've always liked.

Peace, f

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Thurs, Mar 22, 2001 at 17:09:00 (GMT)
From: Nigel
Email: nigel@redcrow,demon.co.uk
To: Francesca
Subject: 'Pharoah' - GREAT song!
Message:
I have a version by 'The House Band' - a collection of folkies doing it on a Thompson tribute album. They do it as a fast number - excellent, and an improvement on the orginal, I think. Very premie-service relevant too:

I dig a ditch, I lift a stone
Another battlement for his throne
Another day on Earth is flown
We're all working for the Pharoah...

Interesting what you said about Adam Ant. For him to be playing the States he must have already made it big, yet in those days he always posed as Mr Clean-living, no drink, no drugs, no smoking. Bit like Culture Club I guess.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Thurs, Mar 22, 2001 at 17:30:33 (GMT)
From: Francesca
Email: None
To: Nigel
Subject: 'Pharoah' - GREAT song!
Message:
Actually, the live acoustic version (that I heard live from RT years ago) was great. He played a concert in a place than only held about 100 when he was testing out songs for a new album. Just him and his guitar. There is this broken down old barn that they use for a theater here in California and he was friends with the former manager.

He hasn't been to that barn since she moved on.

I bet the collection of covers is cool though.

And yes, Adam Ant was kind of big in the states. One of my premie friends who was more into the 'world' than me at the time (I moved in with her when I left the ashram while I was waiting for a flat to open up) was listening to AA in 1981-82 and I used to see his albums everywhere.

--f

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Thurs, Mar 22, 2001 at 18:19:31 (GMT)
From: Nigel
Email: nigel@redcrow.demon.co.uk
To: Francesca
Subject: 'Pharaoh' - GREAT song! (definitely OT)
Message:
He hasn't been to that barn since she moved on.

Aha - the elusive second Mrs Thompson, perhaps..? I always wondered what became of her.

I bet the collection of covers is cool though.

Actually there have been two tribute compilations: an American made double-album and a UK-made single album. Both great, and loads of surprising guest artists, famous and obscure: Talking Heads (Emotion), REM (Wall of Death), Bonnie Raitt (When the Spell is Broken), Ivor Cutler (Wheely Down), The Five Blind Boys of Alabama (Dimming of the Day), X (Shoot Out the Lights), Dinosaur Junior (Turning of the Tide) etc.. They're probably both collectors' items by now. Will do copies for anyone who'd like them if they email.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Thurs, Mar 22, 2001 at 17:13:40 (GMT)
From: Nigel
Email: None
To: Nigel
Subject: Sorry, 'Pharaoh' (dyslexic fingers) nt
Message:
nt
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Wed, Mar 21, 2001 at 04:09:16 (GMT)
From: Nigel
Email: None
To: Abi
Subject: fa diddly qua-qua!
Message:
So what's the couplet that comes after 'Don't step on an ant it's done nothing to you?' I could never quite work it out...
Goes 'Don't step on an ant, you'll wind up black and blue /
Cut off it's hind legs come looking for you' It's like there's words missing.

Have to to say that, yes, Adam Ant was better looking than Margie, and also more interesting than most of the shite going on in the UK charts at the time. (Do the Hucklebuck, anybody?)

Hey! - ridicule is nothing to be scared of...;)

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Wed, Mar 21, 2001 at 04:40:36 (GMT)
From: Abi
Email: None
To: Nigel
Subject: fa diddly qua-qua!
Message:
Look, I have no idea what the lyrics were really. Did M. McLaren write them?

Don't knock the 80s. The Smiths were wonderful. And Japan, Soft Cell etc. I had crushes on all the gay boys in pop.

I have to work.

bye

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Wed, Mar 21, 2001 at 04:54:13 (GMT)
From: Nigel
Email: None
To: Abi
Subject: fa diddly qua-qua!
Message:
Not knocking the eighties, Abi, least of all the Smiths. 'How soon is now?' is almost my all-time fave choon. Working heh? I thought it was almost bedtime... ulp, or is that dawn threatening to break?
Ciao
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Tues, Mar 20, 2001 at 19:07:09 (GMT)
From: G
Email: None
To: Nigel
Subject: his unsynchronized dancing
Message:
'...Rich told us the dream he had had the night before. He said he had been watching Maharaji on stage, dressed in a tutu like a ballerina, performing these exquisite pirouttes and leaps about the stage... And he was gushing on about this dream and saying how fanatastic, beautiful, elegant the Master was...'

This couldn't be farther from the reality about his dancing. I remember it as a waddle, ungainfully swaying from one foot to the other, out of synch with the music. It was very unsynchronized. Yet at Kissimmee he insulted us by saying 'I'm the only one dancing.' If he tried to do a pirouette he probably fall on his ass.

About a year and a half ago there was a video of Rawat singing, if you could call it that. He sounded like a donkey braying. Years ago he said 'You don't want to hear me sing'. He was right. Yet, people in the audience were ooing and ahhing. Rawat seemed unaware of his poor singing, I think he might have been drunk. That was one of the final drips for me.

I remember this story about a running coach supposedly saying that Rawat ran 'with perfect form', that he had been trying to teach his students that form. He had supposed watched that slo mo film of Rawat running towards 'Durga Ji' on the beach, the one where her tits were almost coming out of her dress (or robe).

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Wed, Mar 21, 2001 at 19:06:04 (GMT)
From: Francesca
Email: None
To: G
Subject: we need an MP3 of that song on EPO! LOL n/t
Message:
n/t
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Wed, Mar 21, 2001 at 20:40:19 (GMT)
From: G
Email: None
To: Francesca
Subject: and an animated image of him wobbling! LOL n/t
Message:
nt
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Tues, Mar 20, 2001 at 17:22:45 (GMT)
From: Susan
Email: None
To: Nigel
Subject: tutu on guru
Message:
You know Nigel, I have a very visual imagination. The guru just did pirouettes all over my screen...bouncing and jiggling and grinning all the way...sort of like the hamster dance...or some horrific version of fantasia...

hey um...wait a sec...do you think that is where Rich's dream came from? Doesn't fantasia have hippos in tutu's or something?

hahahahahahahahah

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Tues, Mar 20, 2001 at 17:31:36 (GMT)
From: Susan
Email: None
To: Nigel
Subject: aha Rich's MIND got the better of him!
Message:
that dream was without a doubt based on Fantasia...

take a look!

Rich was in his mind

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Wed, Mar 21, 2001 at 06:06:42 (GMT)
From: janet
Email: None
To: Susan
Subject: to aid your imagination in visualizing...
Message:

'http://www.geocities.com/lord_haharaji/Hoho/Gallery/index.htm'>let us not forget this stunning image
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Wed, Mar 21, 2001 at 08:05:09 (GMT)
From: Pat Conlon
Email: None
To: janet
Subject: aid your imagination in visualizing...fixed link
Message:
Fixed link

Hoho Haharaji

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Wed, Mar 21, 2001 at 19:57:06 (GMT)
From: cq
Email: None
To: Pat Conlon
Subject: aid your imagination in visualizing...fixed link
Message:
It's the one called

TV Sumo Lord

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Wed, Mar 21, 2001 at 02:06:08 (GMT)
From: Abi
Email: None
To: Susan
Subject: aha Rich's MIND got the better of him!
Message:
Hahahahah!
Oh someone please do a whizzy pic of M with a tutu.

Oh horrible thought, did he and Durga Ji, you know, when he was dressed up...

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Wed, Mar 21, 2001 at 01:51:36 (GMT)
From: Nigel
Email: None
To: Susan
Subject: Prost, susan! Fantasia indeed...
Message:
Well spotted. Do you think Rich has processed this?
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Tues, Mar 20, 2001 at 19:25:46 (GMT)
From: G
Email: None
To: Susan
Subject: something like this?
Message:
.

   $$
   $$
    ..
    =
  _v_
   O
    ^

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Tues, Mar 20, 2001 at 16:21:16 (GMT)
From: Susan
Email: None
To: Abi
Subject: his physical form
Message:
Abi,

I was always struggling with Mr. Mind on this one. I always thought he was, well, ugly. And fat, and short. I always felt like other people were the really good devotees because they thought he was so beautiful and I was constantly pushing away thoughts that this was one ugly guy. I thought his looks were a sort of test, like who would have guessed, with all the human forms god could choose, he would choose a short ugly fat greasy guy?

In darshan I had the same problems. My mind would SCREAM at me in darshan. Once, my thoughts were 'he looks bored, he doesn't know who I am, and he hates being here'. Of course, in hindsight, I think he was bored, didn't know who I was, and hated being there except for the 250K he was gonna get later. After one darshan the thoughts were so undeniable I came out sobbing. Everyone thought I was blissed out when in reality I was crying out of self loathing because of all my doubts. I was fighting an urge to leave the hall, go home, say it is a cult, and never come back. I think that was about a year before I actually did it.

I recall Randy Prouty, the ubiquitous super premie from my adolescence, said that he had seen GMJ without a shirt on, and that he wasn't fat, he was solid as a rock. Later, we all saw him without a shirt on, and that solid as a rock guy jiggled quite a bit. Randy, of course, was a better premie than I, seeing his Lord as he wanted to see him, buff and ripped.

I have told this story before, but I will tell this again because it was funny. My mom, sister and I went to Denver in 1976. We had a couple days vacation there and then my mom let me stay in the Ashram with Prakesh Bai until the program that summer. I was 14. Somehow, my mom, sister and I all decided to go see the Kittredge building. Well, as we walked up there is my friend Randy ( I tell you he was omnipresent, not the guru ) and Randy is looking like he is going to puke as we walked up. Like he wants us to GO AWAY. But he says stand here, GMJ is coming, and we line up against the wall. ( My mom and sister were not premies and thought I was in a cult). Along comes the Guru and entourage. Just as my beloeved guru walks by my mom says, loudly, 'he's so short'.

Oh was I upset with my mommy.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Tues, Mar 20, 2001 at 23:10:16 (GMT)
From: Joe
Email: None
To: Susan
Subject: You think he was ugly THEN?
Message:
You should see him NOW. At least when he was younger, you could sort of think he was cute. But now...oh my god.

Did Randy really say he was 'solid?' God, Randy must have been on some serious drugs at the time. That is one thing I have never heard anyone say.

I also had trouble with his appearance, but also his voice, which, if he raised it at all, was like fingers on a chalk board. I remember at one of the last festivals I attended in 1982, all I could think was SHUT UP!!! PLEASE STOP!!! But rambled on for another 45 minutes or so, saying nothing in the most grating fashion possible.

You and Abi are a scream.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Wed, Mar 21, 2001 at 01:51:30 (GMT)
From: Abi
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: You think he was ugly THEN?
Message:
Oh God yes, That Voice. It would get higher and higher and higher and nag and nag and nag. He was like some huge fat fishwife sitting there on those massive thrones nagging endlessly. Maybe the rush of group hysteria afterwards was really a subconscious relief that he'd stopped banging on about Satsang, Servicve and Meditation.

I hated the way everyone had to sit really still, hardly blink and not talk and pretend that every word he said was a priceless gem. Even when he was talking about the wonders of eating cheese. And afterwards some premie would say 'wow man, that stuff about the cheese really moved me'. Oh sure...

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Tues, Mar 20, 2001 at 16:43:14 (GMT)
From: Abi
Email: None
To: Susan
Subject: his physical form
Message:
Oh that is so funny! He's short!

I know what you mean about your mind just screaming out that the whole thing was revolting. The first time I saw a picture of M I was about six I think. It was the picture on the front of my father's 'Who is Guru Maharaj Ji? book. I said, well, who is he? And my Dad said that he was a very wise and magnificent person. I looked again and said well, he's just a fat kid and who does he think he is. They do say first impressions last. And it did, through years and years of intense brainwashing. I tried to lurv the fact that he was only 5'2 by saying freaky things like, 'oh gosh mummy I'm almost as tall as Mwarji' and then later 'oh Mummy I'm as tall as Mwarji now'. My bedroom was plastered with large photos of him. Sometimes I'd stare and stare at them until they'd sort of wobble about and grow fangs and I would rush downstairs and say 'mum! He's got fangs!' and she'd laugh and say oh he must love you very much to trick you like this. I tired, really I did, to think he was beautiful. He had large pores.

I always resented having to dress up for darshan and wear little dresses and stuff. I hated girl clothes. And yes he did look bored and constipated and I resented that. Sometimes he'd look at me and when he did I just felt this urge to revolt against it all. Yes, those feelings were confusing. I always felt guitly.

I remember going to a festival in London with my father. I was pretty young. I had this fluffy black teddy and one evening I confided to it that I HATED Maharaji. It all came out. I felt very guilty afterwards. My teddy went missing and I thought that somehow the evil I'd dumped on him had made him vanish. I'd been punished. He took my bear.

Funny to look back and see that all along part of me was resisting it all. Guess I never made the grade. Phew.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Wed, Mar 21, 2001 at 19:13:53 (GMT)
From: Francesca
Email: None
To: Abi and Susan
Subject: Hon this is worse than growing up Catholic!
Message:
Yours and Susan's observations are invaluable. So glad you managed to run the gauntlet. Yowch!

I would have thought the same thing if it was my teddy.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Wed, Mar 21, 2001 at 17:12:42 (GMT)
From: Susan
Email: None
To: Abi
Subject: this is priceless
Message:
he grew fangs huh? We really should save all these former kid premie posts as a collection. These are so unique. I love the growing fangs...you knew.
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Tues, Mar 20, 2001 at 16:00:51 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Abi
Subject: Is Maharaji really gorgeous? Wow. Tough one.
Message:
Hard to say, Abi. I've got to think about this one a bit.
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Tues, Mar 20, 2001 at 16:21:15 (GMT)
From: Abi
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Is Maharaji really gorgeous? Wow. Tough one.
Message:
Just call me Linda. Not.
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Tues, Mar 20, 2001 at 13:04:32 (GMT)
From: salam
Email: None
To: cerise
Subject: So, what do want of jim.
Message:
help you in your exames?
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Tues, Mar 20, 2001 at 13:26:26 (GMT)
From: cerise
Email: None
To: salam
Subject: I did ok in my exams thanks
Message:
considering the time spent surfing! :9 % %%
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Tues, Mar 20, 2001 at 06:20:44 (GMT)
From: Pat Conlon
Email: None
To: cerise
Subject: Cerise! Hi sis. Sorry I jumped on you other day
Message:
It's great to hear more about you. Sure blew my assumptions. I thought you were your dad, an old hippie like me, or some crusty troll that we've had turn up here and say terrible things to Thelma and Pauline Premie. I'm not belligerent but your generation understands me better than my own which is why all my friends are the same age as my son who is 28. Nice and streetwise and you understand that an old fag rebel had to fight a lot fights to survive. It's all bark and no bite. Promise.

I am just itching to get to know more about you. I just love it that you aren't a joiner. I'm very sociable and love company which is why I chat to everybody here but basically I am a hermit. Me and my two husbands who are your generation live like monks. Just kidding. But I am allergic to groups havingbeen raise din South Africa where if you didn't obey the Group Areas Act you went to jail which I did.

So, cheers and welcome.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Tues, Mar 20, 2001 at 13:37:37 (GMT)
From: cerise
Email: None
To: Pat Conlon
Subject: Cerise! Hi sis. Sorry I jumped on you other day
Message:
thanks Pat. It's a bit scary first posting, (then freaking!) I've watched in safety for years and I feel like I know some of you at least as well as you know yourselves. Still, that doesn't calm the nerves of the first dip in.
Yea my dad is an old hippie like you! hehe tho he says the whole thing is over now.

My first net pal is a guy called mindbinder, lives in Tuscon, we met in 1996 and have been friends ever since. I spent weeks in a crappy chat room before he showed up for the 1st time (that's when good people come in and either piss off or connect with someone real). There's a few real people here which kinda makes it cool.
must reply to janet now. keep jousting Pat!
C

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Tues, Mar 20, 2001 at 19:52:34 (GMT)
From: Pat Conlon
Email: None
To: cerise
Subject: Cerise! Well, don't be shy or nervous
Message:
about posting. My friend Thelma the Thunderstealing Bitch is here to take care of women and she's got balls.

You said you liked my 1972 pic - well, my son (also a child of premies) is now that age and looks just like me. Can I do a bit of match-making? Although he lives in UK. He can't stand Rev Rawat.

Also don't expect any condescencion from me. I used to treat my son like he was grown-up when he was a toddler - only cut him a bit of slack because he was smaller than me. Once he was taller than me I figured he needed to cut me slack. But the rebellious little shit didn't.

Terrific having you here and I'm looking forward to talking with you.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Wed, Mar 21, 2001 at 12:06:07 (GMT)
From: cerise
Email: None
To: Pat Conlon
Subject: thanks P, I'm chilling
Message:
Your kid is my age? ha what a hoot. If he looks like you in 72 send him over! great that you treted him like an friend. mine folks were like that and I'm grateful - you should see some of my friends, shit scared of their parents and no relating at all, at least I drank and smoke with M+D in fact they showed me the ropes and , just as they hoped, I don't really get into either that much. a girlfriend nearly o'd the other day cos she argued all day with her mum then went and got right out there. they come to my house in those times and we play tomb raider, soon chills them.
someone in this forum should collect all the funny posts (did you see Abi's description of her 'life at home'? I took 10 minutes to get over that) anyway a folder should be made marked Comedy!! laughing is the best thing of anything I reckon, not silly smart posts but hilarious stories and descriptions, I'm going to learn how to do that (hope!)
must read more
cu
C
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Tues, Mar 20, 2001 at 06:02:00 (GMT)
From: janet
Email: None
To: cerise
Subject: how old are you? tell us about your life.
Message:
and you may have to explain some of the newer words you use when you write. you live in a different time warp than we do.
contrasts to other cults would definitely give perspective and contrast. its so much easier to see how weird the other guy is than oneself.
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Tues, Mar 20, 2001 at 13:58:06 (GMT)
From: cerise
Email: None
To: janet
Subject: how old are you? tell us about your life.
Message:
Hi janet, how old I am depends on whether I'm talking to a bouncer at a club or one of mum's friends! let's just 'early' twenties and leave it at that. But I really hope I don't get the usual 'oh how cute let's help her out' stuff. That's what adults like to do. Mum and dad and their friends keep telling us that we are so much smarter than they were etc and yea, we are a bit on the ball. I got hassled at school by guys a lot cos I'm ok looking, so been through thatb trip, when I'd tell them where to go they'd get nasty and gang their friends up. that's why we turned to the net, sure beats the crappy quad games that went on in the yard at reccess. so yea, I'm young but I don't take kindly to condesention(s?) you know! Anyway about the other 'spiritual' folks. There was a great 'interview' with this Adi Samaraji guy
on the first or second page of his site. I personally think he's a mad fruitcake and when I read about 'beloved' and his grovelling devotees I wanted to throw up. The post is too big for here so check out the url.
lol
C
http://adidam.org/gateway/home.htm
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Tues, Mar 20, 2001 at 06:52:10 (GMT)
From: Mercedes
Email: None
To: Cerise
Subject: Key word: Cult
Message:
Hi Cerise, thanks for your letter, I am glad you think I am cool I definitely think I am (he, he). The key word is Cult and M and K are in my mind that, a cult that with the passage of time has learn to adapt and change to continue attracting people, in reality it is about adoring maharaji and doing whatever to participate, contribute, go into debt to follow him and ultimately kiss his feet at Amaroo or some other place far away and experience that high, that being drunk thinkig it is devotion or whatever. Love to hear about the other cults too.
Love,
Mercedes
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Tues, Mar 20, 2001 at 14:16:12 (GMT)
From: cerise
Email: None
To: Mercedes
Subject: Key word: Cult
Message:
hi M, thanks for the welcome

yea, I've heard endless conversations about this stuff for years - honestly! dad got a bit freaked a few years back. They say it isn't a cult anymore but I'm not really sure what makes one or not, they used to do all the chanting and holy stuff i know that. I've flown to amaroo when kids were welcome but I'm not invited to this one coming up.
I guess people get what they want from meeting in large groups eh? what I'd like to know is whay did you guys choose this cult over any of the other ones. dad said he always wanted to be in 'Children of God' or soemthing cos they can all screw each other! Their sanyassin friends are into that. Their god Osho is dead now but they're as keen as ever on the group thing, been to their satsang a few times but it gets boring watching the old folks flirting all over each other afterwards.

ok, maybe read what I said to janet about the other cult and then check out the site of Avi Samaraj and tommorrow I might post another url.
You know what i want when I get into the workforce? shitloads of money! is that sick or what? dad thinks it's a bit 'shallow'.
lol
C

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Tues, Mar 20, 2001 at 15:05:45 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: cerise
Subject: I can answer that one, young lady
Message:
Hi Cerise,

We got into this cult because Maharaji offered a very appealing combo back in the day: the biggest guru bang for the smallest religious buck. On the one hand, here was the 'Lord of the Universe, come with more power than ever before'. He was offering the greatest, platinum-coated, titanium-packaged, exclusive, previously-unsold-in-stores, Knowledge of all Knowledges. It trumped everything. You had a spiritual 'knowledge'? Yeah, right! You got nothing! This was better. You had a guru? Fuck that shit too. Maharaji was such a heavy motherfucker that you wait and see, another year or so there won't BE any other gurus. No, in this darkest of darkest -- we're talking DARK -- ages, He-Who-Cannot-Be-Named-Although-We-Won't-Shut-Up-About-Him, Balyogeshwar, Born-Lord-of-Yogis, the guy who could really kick all the other gurus asses and WILL, just you wait and see, motherfucker, had come. So there!

That was one reason.

The other was that, ironically, for all his being the Lord of the Universe and everything, Maharaji slyly conned us into thinking that he was particularly NOT into starting some sort of sect or religion (we didn't really HAVE the word 'cult' to bandy about then. That wasn't until after Jonestown, as I recall). Maharaji was so clever that way. Every other group had its belief system, a conceptual framework of SOME kind. Of course they did. It'd be impossible to exist otherwise. There'd be no identity, no nothing. Obviously. However, Maharaji took the con to a new, subtler level when he tricked us into thinking that his was a trip-less trip. Our trickiest concept was that we didn't have any.

This one bullshit idea, that we didn't have any ideas, was the biggest trap of all. And, like I said, it made the package so attractive. Not only were you getting the Lord himself but you were getting him without any stuffy, old religion. What a deal, huh?

So, yeah, the COG's and the Rajneeshies got to have sex but we thought that we were on a short, direct cruise to the centre of the universe, whatever that meant. The other cults looked like they were just playing around to us. Mind you, I'm sure Heaven's Gate would say the same about us, if only they could.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Wed, Mar 21, 2001 at 10:23:30 (GMT)
From: cerise
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: you shore can!
Message:
he he. I'm still laughing. Jim, has anyone told you you have a 'way' with words? I hope (and imagine) that you have a job writing right? I get strong kicks out of MAD magasine and that first bit you wrote is like out of there. Still, I guess it's serious in way. What about what M was offering you guys, it seems like you were just taked to and asked to give over everything? Did you find K to be a con or just not what you were promised? I've never gotten a clear anwser about that from anybody - including parents who say 'well, it's a personal experince darling!' It doesn't seem to have been a personal experience for you, and even M Det who seems like a pretty high up dude and together too,. This thread is getting long and will soon be inactive. wish I had time to answer everyone.
Had to go out today - GUESS Where, a bloody Walk for World Peace!! The people were doing it in every country and this was our lucky turn, I think they were into Falun Gong and said all thses nice things about love and life and lighting a sacred candle which gives off pure energy etc. Mum was embarrassingly into it, I just looked for guys and there were about two who looked dorky.
Got a Baskin Robbins out of it anyway!!
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Tues, Mar 20, 2001 at 04:12:34 (GMT)
From: suchabanana
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: Breathing: just what the doctors recommended...
Message:
When I was in the cardiac ward in a Catholic hospital, they had their own 24-hour tv channels programmed: the quit smoking channel, an ob-gyn channel [a favorite with some of the old men patients], the dieter's low-fat nutrition channel, a round-the-clock Catholic Mass channel, an exercise/physical therapy channel, and the relaxation/stress channel.

Anyway, I turned the remote on to the relaxation/stress channel. The program started with this guy sitting in a half-lotus position, with the title scrolling: 'Breath of Life Meditation'. Then, he proceeded to explain pranayama and then demonstrated how to meditate on the flow of the breath. He described everything about one's mental concentration, posture, and just following the breath naturally -- very well. Better than I ever heard it explained by 'you know who.' Just like many of the Buddhist monks teach/practice. Mind you, this is a Catholic hospital! As background ambience to the video, soft premie-type instrumental music was playing. Really weird.

Then, after a brief, guided meditation, the next relaxation tv program was announced, 'Listening to the Inner Sounds.' Holy shit, I thought. I gotta see what this is about... But, just then, my doctor walked in. To make a long story short here, she suggested I continue to do my breath meditation regularly -- for my heart, for my lungs, for healthy oxygenation in the blood, and to alleviate any longterm unhealthy exposure to very stressful situations (i.e. blood pressure, etc.) - valid medical reasons. Go figure...

Speaking of doctors, did you hear about the yogi who refused Novocaine during a root canal? He wanted to transcend dental medication.

Peace and lentils,

da lil' swami

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Tues, Mar 20, 2001 at 09:41:42 (GMT)
From: Pat Conlon
Email: None
To: suchabanana
Subject: transcend dental medication? Oh no I'm starting
Message:
to find your koans and puns funny. Time to leave FV.
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Tues, Mar 20, 2001 at 02:48:40 (GMT)
From: Gregg
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: Breathing and Shitting
Message:
Below, Anth and Jim and others have belittled the practice of attending to the breath (esp. re: Sandy) on the grounds that breathing is not any more important than (etc. etc. etc.).

OK.

It's like the old joke about the parts of the body arguing about who's the most important. Lungs, heart, etc. argue for their primacy. Then the asshole speaks up...by shutting down...and all the other organs bow down to the asshole. (Please, no Maharaji jokes here; I'm trying to make a point.)

The point Sandy and I agree on is that following the breath, being thankful for breath and life, increases ones capacity for love and happiness. Please give Al Green his due. Love and happiness trumps all.

And I happen to believe that the capacity for love and happiness are genetically encoded into who we are, as well.

But that's a different argument.

I'm just saying that listing the many things we can be thankful for does not negate the beauty of watching one's breath.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Tues, Mar 20, 2001 at 19:19:27 (GMT)
From: Jerry
Email: None
To: Gregg
Subject: Breathing and Shitting
Message:
You obviously get more out of it than I do, Gregg; the breathing, that is. I'm sure I enjoy getting a load off my mind as much as anybody, if you know what I mean. But I have to confess, this focusing on the breath and what it does for some people has left me baffled. I'm definitely on the outside looking in with this one. I sometimes wonder if that isn't the intent of people who swear by it, not that they're really getting anything from it, but it pleases them, somehow, to get over on others that they are.
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Wed, Mar 21, 2001 at 11:24:02 (GMT)
From: Robyn
Email: None
To: Jerry
Subject: Breathing and Shitting
Message:
Dear Jerry,
Not reading much here these days and THIS is the thread I chose!!! :)
When I learned the 'word' technique and was told to practice there in Brooklyn with the rest of the 'class' I wasn't having any spectacular experience, and this is for real, the mahatma was walking between us where we sat on the floor and as he brushed by me I felt this column of energy about 3 inches in diameter in the center of my body from the crown of my head straight down to the floor. I felt energy RACING up and down that column much much faster then my breath. I sat there in wonder. I have never had that experience again but it definitely made me feel it was something REAL.
I did and still do continue to follow my breath in meditation. I don't meditate every day, am not on any schedule with it. I do think the benifit would be greater if I did. Now if I am nervous or upset I often find other med techiques can calm me faster but all in all I do still enjoy that quite time I take to meditate on my breath.
Love,
Robyn
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Wed, Mar 21, 2001 at 00:59:41 (GMT)
From: Francesca
Email: None
To: Jerry
Subject: I think focusing on the breath ....
Message:
alone is missing the point. That's part of the problem with M's religion, and some perceptions of meditation. There is an aware state of consciousness that goes beyond that.

Breath, or any other method, is a centering tool. Once there is some sense of stillness, then I can really look around. Other things can be used besides the breath, but either way, it's only the threshold. In fact, if I get too caught up in following my breathing (or whatever else I'm using), I miss the whole point of doing it.

That's my 2 cents, but I'm still learning.

Francesca -- not a sage but a bit of oregano

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Wed, Mar 21, 2001 at 02:26:19 (GMT)
From: Jerry
Email: None
To: Francesca
Subject: But you're already there
Message:
What I don't understand, Francesca, is why do people focus on their breath to increase awareness? We're already aware. It's not as if it's something that you have to make happen. It already is. Just be aware of that and you're there.
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Wed, Mar 21, 2001 at 03:15:16 (GMT)
From: Francesca
Email: None
To: Jerry
Subject: Easy to say
Message:
I don't know of anyone, really, who just walks around fully conscious. Some of us need to get focused.

After M, I'm a bit suspicious of someone who doesn't have to do something and is already there. But I do agree that one doesn't have to use the breath to become mindful. It's just a common tool that is used in many different eastern religions.

==F, who lost the sage and the orgegano but found an old bit of collard green

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Wed, Mar 21, 2001 at 12:34:40 (GMT)
From: Jerry
Email: None
To: Francesca
Subject: Wait a second, Francesca
Message:
After M, I'm a bit suspicious of someone who doesn't have to do something and is already there.

I'm not the one who said you have to do anything to be more aware. Maharaji is. He's the one who taught you to focus on your breath, not me. All I'm saying is, if you're interested in increasing or heightening your awareness, why not just focus on your awareness? To focus on your breath, to me, is like focusing on the ground to see the sky. It's just beating around the bush, and doesn't increase awareness one iota. Unless we're talking about something else here.

It seems people have some strange notions of just what 'awareness' is, and use the word in ways that don't even define it. Is that what you're doing? Maybe we should clear the air here on just what your definition of awareness is. Awareness, to me, is just being, well... aware. Aware of smells, feelings, sights, etc, as well as being aware that you are aware. What is 'awareness' to you?

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Wed, Mar 21, 2001 at 18:33:11 (GMT)
From: Francesca
Email: None
To: Jerry
Subject: One other point I forgot to clarify
Message:
I said:

After M, I'm a bit suspicious of someone who doesn't have to do something and is already there.

Then you said:

I'm not the one who said you have to do anything to be more aware. Maharaji is. He's the one who taught you to focus on your breath, not me.

Precisely. M said that we had to do something more than be aware, BUT that he didn't because he was already there. And what I was saying is, I'm over 50 and I've heard the 'already there' theory more times than I can count. And although I understand what you're calling awareness, which I think the Buddhists would call 'mindfulness,' which is present moment awareness, I don't agree at all that there isn't much that people need to do to be in a state of realization, or awareness. It is simple when you are 'there,' and elusive when I am not, i.e. conflicting emotions, physical or mental pain, obsessive thoughts, etc.

And awareness itself is a choice, and this is where it gets metaphysical. Awareness of what? We pick, we choose, every moment, what we are aware of.

I will be the first one to say that M, and many other teachers of meditation techniques, hype the techniques up beyond belief. But not everyone does, and many of them are useful.

--f

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Wed, Mar 21, 2001 at 17:34:07 (GMT)
From: Francesca
Email: None
To: Jerry
Subject: I think I get you but we're not talking the same
Message:
... language. There is an awareness I touch in with sometimes that is vast, and deep. It seems endless. Sometimes I contact it by, just as you say, being in the present. I guess you could call it just paying attention. But what you keep saying, to me, is that the only way to be aware that is valid, in your opinion, is the way you choose to do it.

All those things you mentioned, the sights, the sounds, the thoughts, are transient, changing. Yet they are part of something. All phenomena, for me, is part of a constant something -- energy, who knows what. That's the thing that some people call god, give it a sex, and dress it up in clothes and think they can talk to it.

And you continue to say 'focus on your breath.' That is pointless, if that is ALL you do. If I get angry, I can look at the anger, for example, and that can be a profound experience if I don't stoke the anger with a stream of contrived thoughts, pro and con (watching the stream of thoughs and noticing them, to me, is part of watching the anger). Anything can be an object. It's all part of your awareness. To say it's one thing or the other gets to be silly.

But I do think that most people that I have ever met have to do something to be more aware. This world is not a great place. Read the world news and I rest my case.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Wed, Mar 21, 2001 at 03:25:13 (GMT)
From: Gregg
Email: None
To: Francesca
Subject: Easy to say
Message:
'I don't know of anyone, really, who just walks around fully conscious.
Some of us need to get focused.'

as Francesca said.

Yeah, we're all 'aware' in that our brains are functioning. We're processing sensory data and drawing conclusions from that. But, as Francesca implied, it is not unreasonable to believe that the way we currently think about our world is not necessarily the ultimate and only description of reality.

Mysticism is not about negating reality; it's about allowing alternative realities to coexist with consensus reality.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Wed, Mar 21, 2001 at 01:41:16 (GMT)
From: Thelma
Email: None
To: Francesca
Subject: Are you so sage all the thyme? Groan NT
Message:
l
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Wed, Mar 21, 2001 at 01:27:43 (GMT)
From: Gregg
Email: None
To: Francesca
Subject: Your two cents are priceless (nt)
Message:
h
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Tues, Mar 20, 2001 at 20:20:12 (GMT)
From: Gregg
Email: None
To: Jerry and Joe
Subject: the PreBotzinger complex
Message:
Jeez, I hope I'm not coming off as some sort of smug spiritual jerk. (Like this guy in Tokyo with Ananda Marga - anyone remember them? - who told me that once I became more spiritually evolved I'd stop wearing leather.)

There are a lot of meditative practices that don't involve the breath. (One good one is placing your hands on your lap, palms up, and simply place your attention in your hands.)

One theory about why the 'hand meditation' works is that so much of the brains sensory capacity is devoted to the hands, so some sort of feedback mechanism gets intensified.

Various breath meditations work well, too, but I don't exactly know why. I'm not a breath fetishist. I don't believe I am 'being breathed' or anything (although pretending to believe the sky is breathing you is a fun visualization).

Why do I regularly tout the benefits of meditation on this site? To make converts? No. Why would I care if people I don't even know meditate or not? I don't even care if my friends meditate or not. In fact, I'm kind of glad my wife doesn't meditate, cuz if she started channeling angelic beings or something I think I'd go nuts.

I bring up this spiritual shit cuz it's fun to debate the undebatable, and, especially, to let premie lurkers know that leaving the FatGuru doesn't necessarily result in the abandonment of all things spiritual.

Now, this just in:

'The UCLA study supplies evidence that the origins of respiration in mammals is in the PreBötzinger complex, a small portion of the brain stem hypothesized as the center of respiration.

'Feldman and his colleagues showed in earlier studies that the rhythm of breathing could be observed in thin slices of the PreBötzinger complex taken from laboratory mice and rats. While this suggested the region was the basis of respiration, it did not precisely locate the neurons involved in the activity.

'In the study published in the latest edition of Science, UCLA researchers report the results of studies with PreBötzinger tissue that was injected with agents that speed up or slow down respiration.

'The chemical agents either decreased or increased the rhythmic pattern seen in the tissue. But more importantly, the agents activated only those neurons that are believed to be involved in generating the rhythmic signals and not other neurons believed to be involved with transmitting the rhythms down the brain stem to the diaphragm and related muscles.

'This is pretty convincing evidence that these are the neurons that control breathing functions,' said Feldman, chairman of the Department of Neurobiology at the UCLA School of Medicine.

'Because the brain is organized in similar ways, the same portion of the human brain is likely to control respiration as in rats and mice because the brains are organized in similar ways,' said Feldman.'

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Tues, Mar 20, 2001 at 21:35:25 (GMT)
From: hal
Email: None
To: Gregg
Subject: Strange you mentioned that
Message:
Hi Gregg,

My wife did start channeling angelic beings and I did go nuts.

Steve ( really , no joke... the whole fucking lot.. gabriel michael you name it )

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Tues, Mar 20, 2001 at 22:03:14 (GMT)
From: Jerry
Email: None
To: hal
Subject: Beezlebub?
Message:
Now when she starts channeling that one, you've got a problem, hal.
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Wed, Mar 21, 2001 at 00:06:23 (GMT)
From: Hal
Email: None
To: Jerry
Subject: Not as bad as Beetlejuice tho Jerry ! nt
Message:
nt
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Tues, Mar 20, 2001 at 20:23:54 (GMT)
From: Pat Conlon
Email: None
To: Gregg
Subject: Gregg, I love your posts
Message:
Nothing like getting high with a little help from our friends.

Jay snatched with abandon

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Tues, Mar 20, 2001 at 17:54:13 (GMT)
From: Joe
Email: None
To: Gregg
Subject: Following the breath
Message:
Gregg, you say 'following the breath' and I guess ALSO 'being thankful for breath and life' increases the capacity for love an happeness.

In your view, are both necessary to get the benefit? Does one flow automatically from the other?

Is there something unique about the breath in its capacity to do this? For example, if you concentrated on, and felt thankful for, you heartbeat, would that result in the same benefits?

In my experience, focusing on anything can have a calming, beneficial affect in helping me notice and be aware of life, which is usually good, but it's a very limited thing.

But I have found, partly based on my experience of doing 'breath meditation' for a good 10 years, that there are lots of things that increase my capacity for love and happiness much more, including, my feelings about myself, the love from others in my life, the amount of time I give love to others and not think about myself, etc. Those things have always been, for me, more significant in increasing love and happiness in my life than any kind of practice. Following my breath never did much for me, although I BELIEVED it did. But when I stopped, nothing much changed.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Tues, Mar 20, 2001 at 07:36:46 (GMT)
From: Daneane
Email: None
To: Gregg
Subject: Breathing and Shitting
Message:
It's funny to me that the breathing part of your statement always tends to go the the mystical, spirital, or divine realms. Yet the Shitting part of your statement usually does not. Both are just as essential however.

What I don't get is why 'Spiritual' always has to get lofty. Knowledge of of our own temporality really ain't such a big a deal. Yes, sure, I'd rather be breathing than sucking up sea water.

There is a line in the Tao to Ching to 'return to the knotting of rope'. To me this means to just live in the moment and deal with what is before you rather then zooming by condemning other people, fantasing lofty ideals or various other ways we have of sticking our heads up our asses.

I stand by my own opinion that true enlightment is through retail. Or perhaps being an Customer Service Rep at Earthlink.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Wed, Mar 21, 2001 at 02:57:36 (GMT)
From: Abi
Email: None
To: Daneane
Subject: Breathing and Shitting
Message:
'I shop therefore I am' - Barbara Kruger.
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Tues, Mar 20, 2001 at 18:40:38 (GMT)
From: Francesca
Email: None
To: Daneane
Subject: Well said, spot on, Daneane!
Message:
I was just discussing this very thing with a coworker this morning. She's not into the spiritual thing at all -- sees it as a personal self-serving avocation, rather than anything loftier than anything else. She says that some people just 'need' to be spiritual. Boy, does she keep me honest!

I realized that the big dichotomy I had/have at times is that unless I see the whole thing as one thing -- not the breath over here, and the shit over there, separate somehow -- I'm always going to be a neurotic mess. Is that called integration? Or just 'what it is?'

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Tues, Mar 20, 2001 at 18:37:43 (GMT)
From: Francesca
Email: None
To: Daneane
Subject: Well said, Daneane!!!! Thanks! n/t
Message:
righto
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Tues, Mar 20, 2001 at 04:48:42 (GMT)
From: Francesca
Email: None
To: Gregg
Subject: I agree that breath is a good tool ...
Message:
in many types of meditation.

Just because M has made so many ridiculous, ludicrous and pompous statements about it does not change the fact that by using the breath as a point of concentration, one can get to something beyond one's breath.

Breath also helps me center so that I can concentrate on other things, including being mindful of what is going on around me and inside of me. I haven't gotten to the thread below because I've been pretty busy at the end of the day, but I think some of the jokes are hard to resist after hearing all the crazy talks about breath by a man who does not meditate very much if at all.

Obviously, there is something beyond breath itself -- when we die we stop breathing -- but it is ironic that one can even connect with that force by starting from the breath. There are many other meditation techniques that one can use, and by M's statements, he's set up that technique for some pot shots. Don't fret, we all need a laugh.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Tues, Mar 20, 2001 at 04:07:52 (GMT)
From: Cynthia
Email: None
To: Gregg
Subject: Breathing and Shitting...I agree..
Message:
I don't know about genetics, but something is going on which we or scientists or theologists can't explain. Not without great argument and debate, anyway.

I am now fond of the spiritual attitude of the Northeast Woods Indians, the Abenakis, Micmacs, and many other tribes who have been documented for 10,000 years up north here. I hung out with them for a couple of years (break from m period) and they are very happy to not have an explanation for death or birth. They have legends, but what I have adopted and like the best is the ''Great Mystery.'' It's okay not to know or have to explain it all. It's simplicity attracts me, although I don't practice any religion. I'm allergic.

If we can figure out our genetic code, great. But life and death? I don't have time for philosophers. I wasn't looking for answers when I stumbled upon m, so whatever I have learned from him is arbitrary. I look at the heap of garbage, pick and choose what may be of value and move on. P.S. There isn't much of value when weighed against the harm.

Scientists can explain things that exist as phenomena to me; I believe them. Clone me, you'll get more than you asked for.LOLOL. (Private joke to myselves)! And I don't do science and math.

I cannot commit! I guess I'm a liberal agnostic, like Pat Conlon.

Best,
Cynthia

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Tues, Mar 20, 2001 at 08:43:17 (GMT)
From: old fart
Email: None
To: Cynthia
Subject: or Fartessa who is older and wiser
Message:
Good points all!

It really feels so good to be able to do both (breathe and defecate)and stopping of either would certainly be the death of us!

True freedom would be to eat without the need to shit and to breathe without the necessity of air. I've dreamed of 'breathing' water and flying into the wild blue yonder with no effort.

Being content with not knowing is a good state to be in. Or knowing the present is all that you need to know:No concepts, just awareness and ability to respond in the moment and know that every choice you make effects your next one, and the next...

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Tues, Mar 20, 2001 at 09:38:38 (GMT)
From: Pat Conlon
Email: None
To: old fart
Subject: Thanks old fart - farting is also very important
Message:
Yanks call it gas. Brits call it wind.

''Wherever you go let your wind go free
For holding it in was the death of me.''

Epitaph on the tombstone of a very tight-assed school-marm from Shropshire. She was too embarassed to fart in front of her pupils.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Tues, Mar 20, 2001 at 02:25:17 (GMT)
From: Patrick Wilson
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: Ashram segregation -A 'Caste System'
Message:
Here is a transcript of my reply to a premie friend who has written to me with some thoughts about ashram premies versus non ashram premies etc. I feel that it's worth reproducing here because his questions and comments reflect widely held premie views as far as I can see.


You say:
'I am not surprised that you hold your position right now and I see it as a consequence of your motivation in earlier times. Ego investments make us bankrupt.'

What do you think my motivation was in these earlier times? If you think any others had more apt motivations I'd be interested to know what they were. I was as sincere as I could be.
You seem to be very suspicious about some people's motives. Perhaps you could list some people who were for example, less egoistic than I? Who are these people who have such better motives? Maybe it's splitting hairs to imagine that any one of us lot were more or less ego-motivated than each other.
Remember the satsang about the aeroplane landing and how ridiculous it is to say that the front passengers arrive before those in the back? I think it would be an interesting exercise to see if you can think of anyone who had less ego or more than you or I, because you seem to be are saying you can be a judge of that.

Measuring motivation. You talk about the uptight behaviour of those who were accepted unlike you, into Maharaji's ashram, in such a way that blames them entirely rather than Maharaji in any way. He made and passed down the line, some very strong demands to all us guys (who were all pretty much in the same boat as I said) and we were divided and conquered very effectively. Why did I sound so righteous ? We were passing directly on to you the strict demanding vibes that we were, apparently unlike you, getting from Maharaji.
It seems, from what you say, that you somehow believe that you and others in your position were those who effectively 'got it right'. As you know, I think you forget or deny what Maharaji was actually requiring then to some extent.

This is rather borne out by your response to my asking you about what went on in your interview with Anne Johnson to decide your worthiness to join the ashram (which is a good example of the sort of judgements that Maharaji was passing onto us, in this case via her). I was in a closed ashram meeting where I heard Maharaji actually say 'You are the guys that matter to me the most - all those other's out in the hall are not as important'. I remember being surprised at the tiem. This was in an ashram meeting in Rome at the Palazzo Del Sporti. I can't remember the exact year - it would have been around 1977-8. Anyway Maharaji believed this stuff, otherwise why would he have said it? The other thing was that he encouraged us to trust the judgements of his instructors by emphasing that they were his tools and we should trust them in their service role etc. The suggestion was that they were blessed to make divinely inspired judgements, as you must remember. They were channels for His Grace - not thought of usually for their personal opinions. Of course he got all the credit if people liked what his instructors conveyed and yet ironically, he blamed them for the problems that inevitably arose.

You said of your interview with Anne Johnson: 'I can't actually remember what she said except that she questioned my position in a way that upset me.'

She questioned your motives - your egoism. She was obeying in that meeting, Maharaji's agya to her, to gauge our commitment, ability and willingness to surrender our whole personal 'ego'. That was her service. You are right, if I remember correctly, that she said you were too wild - I seem to recall her saying that. She rejected you because she judged that you had too many egoistic motives to make the grade. So it sounds a little bit back to front for you to accuse those who got past her attempts at judgement, as being more ego-motivated than you.
You see I think this tack is a red herring, a distraction from the truth. It is like accusing someone of being 'proud that their humble' - it's a contradiction in terms. Very clever sounding at first but the fact is - either they are humble or they're not.

You add: 'It was more that I felt that she misjudged me'

Sure. that was sort of what it was all about. On that level all judgements are inappropriate and divisive. So are you saying that if she hadn't misjudged you, you wouldn't have also become an intense, self-righteous, uptight ashram premie like others? I doubt that. All the people who got accepted for the ashram were no better or worse than you in my opinion. They just passed the test for whatever reason. My guess is that Anne Johnson probably didn't like your haircut or something. Maybe you reminded her of someone she didn't like!

If you had been accepted you would have also believed that you were doing the right thing and the fact that you would have,in practice, surrendered your will in this way - to be sent off to some distant ashram etc. would have made you feel justas special and 'blessed' as the next man. Then you would probably now have had some annoying guy who 'failed' the test accusing you of going through all that because of your 'ego investment plans'!

This whole ego-demonising trip is divisive. This is what I mean about how degenerate the power structures set up by gurus or masters can become, in dividing and conquering former equals. It makes people like you and I judge each other. Maybe then I judged you like Anne did - so now you judge me. It's no different. What gets overlooked here is that we were both doing our best as humbly as we could in actual fact. All that matters is our motivation. Our motivation was essentially sincere -and it was Maharaji's practice of segregation that created a split society of privileged and less privileged -each 'Caste' imagining that they were better than the other.

'There was a general perception at the time that if one didn't go in the ashram one was less (valid), this was perpetuated by ashram premies who had an ego investment in doing so.'

Yes, but this notion of greater validity was instigated by none other than Maharaji himself as I pointed out. It was not a general perception by any means, until he presented that possibility - in no uncertain terms. You may judge that the ashram premies were motivated by the desire to feel superior. I think that their superior air just reflected a status that Maharaji purposely accorded them. He built them up to knock them down so to speak.

I used to equate this process to the natural phenomenon of 'Freeze Thaw' whereby rocks in the desert are baked by the daytime sun and at night time are subject to freezing temperatures. The resulting heat differential causes the rocks break down and crack. So our egos, I thought, were being at once flattered and then abused and broken. We too were being broken and cracked. We submitted to that process and Maharaji clearly enjoyed controlling the temperature!

So Maharaji emphatically said that ashram premies were his most precious followers and then he would later speak surprisingly mockingly about them This constant uncertainty not only divided people internally but us as a group.
'Most precious followers' certainly sounded like 'more valid ' followers to me, and also to loads of other people who rushed to join the ashram. What kind of ego investment was that all about? It's strange to propose that all these people were motivated by their egos. In short Maharaji suggested plenty of good devotee-like reasons for aspiring to join the ashram.
You might as well accuse any premie who obeyed Maharaji's agya of seeking an ego-investment. What about love? What about sincere desire to obey? Were they not motives too? What about Trust?
Premies who went into the ashram were investing no more ego in that act than those premies who invested their energies into their own lives instead. In fact one could well argue that to follow one's own will, as opposed to surrendering it, represented far more of an ego-investment!

You seem to resent that ashram premies displayed so-called 'spiritual ego'. This was par for the course, pretty much for everybody. If you had been accepted it would have produced the same spiritual ego I'm sure.

'The same people today are doing the same thing - making others wrong for not holding the views they do.'

Being in the ashram was all about being synchronised with, and being a channel for Maharaji's 'Agya'. All the seriousness and the self-righteous stuff that was coming through us was mostly what Maharaji was feeding us and we, in turn, were inspired to reproduce .

Now, on the Internet, so-called ex-premies are providing arguments and information that they hope will explain their viewpoint. If that makes current premies feel wrong then so be it . People engaging in arguing their views is all about trying to beat out what is right from wrong, fact from fiction, truth from lies and so on.
Your implication is that the ex-premie forum is a challenge to people who do not wish to have to defend their views. All I can say is that nobody is compelled to read that forum and yet many current premies do. I'm sure it's healthy to have ones views challenged anyway. The truth will out.

You say that the ashrams represented'An intolerant priesthood in the making. It was essential they be eradicated if the message was to remain pure.'

Maybe since you were aware of what was going on you should have warned Maharaji that his ashram scheme would have regrettable side-effects! Your hindsight sounds a bit pompous, if I may be so bold to say, and furthermore, is putting the blame all on the premies as usual -Yawn! Maybe, since you believe that such an autocracy is acceptable and Maharaji has everyone's best interests at heart and is infallible, it follows that you can favourably rationalise Maharaji's every act. I have heard that there were more down-to-earth reasons why Maharaji dissolved the ashrams. You can read what Dettmers and others around at the time say about this. Most premies now admit that the way the ashrams were disbanded was handled badly. Some go as far as to admit that Maharaji himself made an error of judgement -Woa there!

The ashrams were just a bunch of people who wanted to get it right on his terms. Some became priest-like and maybe it was good to demote them - but not in the callous way which is reflected in your sentence. These people were generally very sincere and any 'intolerance' they put out was also a reflection of Maharaji's stance in my opinion.

Anyway, Maharaji has not eradicated his priesthood has he? The hierarchy is still alive and well. If anything, I find the current priests just as sinister as the one's they replaced and whose 'eradication' you applaud. Let me remind you that pieces of work like David Smith, who terrorised me and some others, are still very much in place in positions of authority. And what about Jagdeo eh? Was he eradicated back then in '81? Nope.

Is the message of an autocrat 'purer' because he doesn't give anyone else the right to speak? How was the message being contaminated?? People always just did what he said. Now he has changed tack and the current premies reflect that change. It's not that the message is purer essentially - it is different though. I can see that. However it is still conveyed by people and some sort of priesthood - albeit in mufti.

You then say:

'Maharaji said there would be 6 waves of ashram before he visualised it become reality. I don't accept that individuality surrendering was the purpose or requirement for ashram membership. In reality it was more about the capacity to live in that system, a capacity I was not judged to have.'

You don't accept that individuality surrendering was the purpose or requirement for ashram membership however I put it to you that there is irrefutable evidence to the contrary in the form of tapes, videos, countless witnesses etc. Also Maharaji was adamant that being in the ashram was not at all just about having the capacity or ability to live in the system. On the contrary, he used to say that no one had the capacity or talent for that, in fact it was only by His Grace that one could surrender, and that it was more about just making effort to follow the rules - however impossible it may have seemed to succeed or how 'unworthy' a mortal you were. Grace would follow Effort. Remember?

Of course you had the 'capacity to live in that system'. As much as the next man! One only needed to be single and free of other commitments (although even other commitments often didn't stop people joining as we know) The thing that disqualified you was merely that Anne Johnson noticed that you had your own set of , as she put it, 'wild ideas'. I think that she thought you were too strong-willed and would not make the effort to give up your 'mind' - your 'individuality'.

So I disagree with you on this 'capacity' thing. I don't see how you can separate 'the capacity to live in that system' from the capacity for 'individuality surrendering'.

You said:

'Later I set up the Free Ashram for 6 months which was extremely blissful and run as any other.'

Except of course that Maharaji and instructors distinguished these places from his official ashrams by calling them 'Premie Houses'. You called it an 'Ashram' not him. It's like pinning a badge on your lapel and saying 'Look, I'm a Major now!'' That would be meaningless unless you were awarded that rank. In the premie houses no one had the same sense of obligation and commitment that hit you when an instructor (like David Smith) arrived and told you that you were accepted, awarded the rank if you like, and henceforth could be moved anywhere at the drop of a hat - that you could not see your parents - your life now belonged to Maharaji etc.

Being in a premie house did not usually qualify you to go to ashram meetings with M officially etc,etc. (there were some exeptions to this rule in practice - but that was generally the rule). Maharaji was very clear that ashrams were only 'official' when they had his specific blessing as decided remotely by an instructor whose service it was to decide this.
Of course, all this hierarchical structure, 'un-official' and 'official' had the effect of dividing and conquering us. How intentional this was I don't know, but in retrospect it's clear that's the effect it had.
Anyway, it's like you're saying you could get the Knowledge from someone when you didn't go through the aspirant course - Maharaji's required route. Were you making up the rules rather than following them? That's fine of course to look back on - I'm sure that your 'ashram' was in most ways run like any other - except people could come and go as they pleased - wasn't it called the 'half-way house' or something. Why pretend that it was an official Maharaji ashram when it wasn't? And hey, I bet it was a lot more blissful than the 'no-looking-back-now' official ashram where we were all labouring under our heavy commitments.

One thing I notice is that us ex-official ashram premies feel quite offended that people diminish and revise the commitment that we made and what we were put through . You guys, who escaped that fate, can sound a bit self-congratulatory often at our expense. Inaccurate portrayal of what went on is not only disrespectful but is also misleading to newcomers. Is that the desired effect?

'You guys were the ones who were vehement in your views, beliefs (unrealised) and told of your great love and bliss and darshan experience etc. Was it all a lie, were you deluded??'

No, of course it was not a lie on our part - it was however an experience, even sometimes a delusion, that was created by a combination of real meditational bliss, a lot of brainwashing about becoming totally dependent on Maharaji and a lot of misunderstanding, confusion and resentment generated as a result of the hierarchy that Maharaji put in place.
If ex-premies were overlooking some facts, then your accusation that we are 'as guilty of revisionism as Elan Vital' might hold more water. However, I am trying not forget or overlook anything. In fact as a group, ex-premies are trying to draw attention to the facts that are being overlooked now. We are at pains to remember more completely. We don't see living in a blissful state of denial as being anything to do with truth or reality. Both reasons why we got into Knowledge in the first place. I certainly still recall and fully acknowledge the feelings of bliss and all my former convictions.

What we are saying is that we have moved on to more satisfying, more realistic convictions. Anyway why should ex-premies bang on about the good stuff ? There's plenty of premies doing that already. They are addressing the perceived imbalance. Of course we had wonderful experiences etc. I for one just found it hard to ignore the stuff that made me cringe. I wanted to do something about it - even just so as other newcomers and people I cared about would not have to overcome these weird things.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Thurs, Mar 22, 2001 at 03:21:00 (GMT)
From: such
Email: None
To: Patrick Wilson
Subject: Shri Hans Rawat was also NOT an ashram premie! (mt
Message:
mt
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Tues, Mar 20, 2001 at 20:26:05 (GMT)
From: Katie H.
Email: None
To: Patrick Wilson
Subject: Thanks, Patrick - great post, as always
Message:
I referred to this post in my post 'To Scott C.' above - it was another eye-opener, especially in your examples of how M DID consider the ashram premies to be 'higher' than other premies.

The party line in DLM/EV was/is that anything negative that happened around Maharaji is someone else's fault. The mahatmas/instructors and the ashram premies come in for a good share of this abuse. Some of this is deserved, obviously, particularly in the case of the mahatmas (although after what M told you about instructors, I have to wonder about this!), but much of it is just more of the blame game, or 'divide and conquer' as described in Michael Donner's posts.

Take care,
Katie

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Tues, Mar 20, 2001 at 02:10:05 (GMT)
From: Guy Rollins
Email: guy@architx.com
To: Everyone
Subject: Did M stress me out...?
Message:
I'd like to respond to a question from Cynthia. Her question has disappeared from the active archives, but I believe she asked me if meeting with M stressed me out -- cause she saw that in my face at DECA.

This is quite long, but please read to the end. Here's a story:

When M first moved to Miami he lived in rented digs. Soon a house was purchased which, naturally, required pretty extensive renovations to be 'the residence.' I was not involved in the renovations: Another architect from our design/engineering staff at DECA was asked to do this.

One night I got a call around midnight from this guy asking me to come by the house and help him with a problem. I got there about 1:00. Lots of work was going on -- around the clock, great urgency, etc. The work was being done by premies who worked for an 'outside' company, composed primarily of premies, who had the dual responsibility of doing their money-making work and freebies (service) for M's personal projects.

Some interior plumbing was being moved in a second floor bathroom. The plumber had cut joists in order to relocate plumbing fixtures. The other architect had seen these cut joists and was concerned that the structure was damaged. He wanted to consult. Together with the main carpenter, we worked out a way to strengthen the floor and install the piping. It required that some things that had been done be redone, plus some additional work that would take a few extra hours.

I went to bed thinking 'job well done.'

I woke up and headed to the complex (DECA facility) early. M came shortly thereafter, earlier than usual. First thing he asked was: 'Did you go to the residence last night?' I explained the situation, what was done and he listened. When I was finished he said: 'That beam was not going to break.' [note: this is pretty close to literal -- it's been over 20 years...]

He was mad and told me never to do that kind of thing again -- don't get in his way, don't delay his projects. I was crushed. Based on my experience -- what I knew about structure -- we had done the right thing. Was there another set of physics for perfect masters? I wondered about this, but mainly I was crushed for being disciplined harshly and publicly.

Of course, one reaction was envy from some that I was in HIS spotlight -- no matter how unpleasant.

Here's another recollection: One night we were in the 707 on the runway at the Miami airport. I'm not sure the circumstances. I don't remember what I had done or not done, but M was yelling at me. He was very angry. I just stood there and soaked it in -- not much I could say. Afterwards, I was pretty numb -- felt like crying. Someone said that if M had done that to them they would have been dead -- kind of like: How were you able to handle that knife in the heart?

Not all encounters with M were stressful. I'm relating these to say to Cynthia that, yes it wasn't always easy. However, at the time, I was doing what I wanted to be doing. I was challenged in all aspects of my life and I thought I had the best job in the world.

However, to put it in some perspective: I've had other clients that found reasons to be dissatisfied with my work. I've had clients that didn't pay me, tried to cheat me. Of course, none of them were perfect masters, so they were entitled (grin).

Here's another story: The first big project, outside of stages, that I did for M was to renovate portions of the Malibu residence (maybe around '76). This project I approached as I had been trained: I treated M like a client, got info about what he desired, produced ideas, reviewed them with him and staff, and then supervised the construction during a period when he was on tour.

When he got back we were all exhausted, but happy. We had completed a major project in record time. The family and staff toured the house and approved of the changes.

In the bedroom there was a stereo system that controlled speakers in other parts of the house. This had been installed and integrated into the existing system by one of the premies who was good at that sort of thing. I guess he had a different idea of how these things were to be set up than M because when M tried to do some things with it, he couldn't get it to work after he had changed some settings. It wasn't the way he was used to seeing it.

The tour and the day turned into a disappointment because the stereo wasn't working. It had worked perfectly during testing, but after changing some switches, M couldn't make it work.

This and some other minor grievances led M to change the way that we worked in the future. He determined that he would be the designer and I would be his project manager: combination draftsman, researcher, go-for and construction supervisor.

I have to admit: He was creative. He had plenty of ideas. That's one reason the budgets kept getting blown-out (as Dettmers related). He would come up with ideas that didn't respect the laws of man or nature. He didn't have the idea that something was impossible to do. Based on what I know about intention, he made a lot of things happen because he believed, and made others believe that they would happen. It's either genius or idiocy, maybe both.

There were a lot of businesses created out of the company that was DECA. There are aviation businesses, cabinet shops, contractors, boat builders, interior designers, graphic designers, etc. who all got their start there. There's a few premies now who are millionaires because of their start at DECA. Looking at it that way, it was a great (business) opportunity.

I learned a lot about how to treat/work with clients from my time with M. Larry Bernstein, designer of the Millenium stage, said that he had trained at the feet of Frank Lloyd Wright (the apprentices sat on the floor, Wright and his wife in the chair -- kind of similar to M, look at pictures of FLW at Taliesen). Part of my apprenticeship was at the feet of GMJ [although I don't think FLW would have said the beam wouldn't break (g)].

I know there have been horror stories told by people on this forum about their time at DECA. I can confirm most of the circumstances. However, I'm like Erika, in one of her posts about COLL, who remembered the special moments. My memories of DECA are filled with positives, also, about the work, the learning, the special friendships and times with M. As Donner keeps saying: Something in me needed something from him at that time in my life. There are no mistakes.

I'm not making apologies or defending M to you. I'm just choosing not to blame him for how my life turned out.
*****
I think during the extensive posts from Erika I got a good education about the Forum. I've certainly changed my initial negative opinion from reading and posting. I appreciate those of you who have come forward to say hello or to ask me my opinion on something that happened, or to remind me of things that I had forgotten -- like salty D says -- senior moments.

However, I do not plan to be a regular, just because this activity takes too much time. Whoever said that computers save time missed the boat. I've never posted to a chat room before and can see why it's addictive: What will Dettmers reveal next? Stay tuned for the next episode, etc.

Also, I respect the real work that is going on in your lives. The processing, the understanding, the accepting and forward movement. The idealism (and naivete) that brought us together originally is still alive in the Forum. Good work, guys.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Tues, Mar 20, 2001 at 03:42:54 (GMT)
From: Tonette
Email: None
To: Guy Rollins
Subject: Before you go I have a question
Message:
Do you recall who became millionaires and do their businesses exist today?
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Tues, Mar 20, 2001 at 04:18:44 (GMT)
From: la-ex
Email: None
To: Tonette
Subject: tonette-some businesses...
Message:
A number of guys went on to make milions from their contacts with the people they worked with at DECA..

Jim Colie-construction, boat remodeling

Rich Groden-commercial renovation

Dwight Sellers-construction

Michael Roark-commercial renovation

Plus, lots of others, and a number of people who moved to other areas...

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Wed, Mar 21, 2001 at 12:57:30 (GMT)
From: A.P.
Email: None
To: la-ex
Subject: NOT
Message:
First of all, I know some of the people you have listed as millionaires, and I have to disagree.

Jim Colie does remodel ships, and just may have money, but he is not a millionaire, I have been to his house it is beautiful and cost him 850K. The house sits on it's own block and has beautiful gardens. He bought the house with the money he made on 1 boat renovation. I would not say his business is always doing well. He has just laid off several high dollar employees and owes some of them a lot of money? If he is a millionaire, why hasnt he paid his employees? I would say at this time, he is going through a rough time.

Rich Groden--Definately not a millionaire!!! He is just a small business owner. I have seen his house and his offices. He makes a living thats all. He has a hard time paying his bills. He does a lot remodels. Believe me, he's not even close to being a millionaire.

Michael Roarke--Also definately not a millionaire. Also can't pay his subcontractors and barely gets by. He may be tall in size but not in the checkbook.

I'm not sure what Dwight Sellers is up to, but I will try to find out and report back here.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Wed, Mar 21, 2001 at 17:14:22 (GMT)
From: la-ex
Email: None
To: A.P.
Subject: NOT...not sure about what you say...
Message:
AP- I know, or have best friends who know,Jim, Richie and Michael, who would disagree totally with you...
As for Dwight, I heard he did well, then hit rock bottom and was actually quite poor now...
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Wed, Mar 21, 2001 at 00:32:38 (GMT)
From: bill burke
Email: None
To: la-ex
Subject: Lots of overlooked details in that list la-ex,
Message:
I probably should not post this now as I have time constraints,
but the list is long of those that were trampled in this
pusuit of careers.
This first that comes to mind is Dwight Sellars, who conspired with the rest of CRA top dogs to skim off the profits of
the CRA construction efforts while using the same slave labor
system that spawned it in the first place.
We did the work of renovating that Soulth beach movie theater turned Disco hot spot. I went all the way up CRA command chain
complaining of them having the young guys SHOVELING a huge pile of dust asbestoes that came from an industrial oven on that same site. They were then given DUSTMASKS, I immediatly went to the REZ and hand delivered a message of what CRA was doing and how it had to stop and could be a real major issue and that I would
not stay silent. They got airfed's in there, but only for the 2 guy shoveling, all the dust blowing around was just donated to the neighborhood and coworkers.
My head is spinning from too many stories I know.
I will just have to post some more on this.
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Wed, Mar 21, 2001 at 00:47:11 (GMT)
From: Katie H.
Email: None
To: bill burke
Subject: Bill, your essay on DECA
Message:
from the Red Nighty - want to re-print it? (I'll leave out the ex-rated parts :)!)
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Wed, Mar 21, 2001 at 13:47:48 (GMT)
From: bill
Email: None
To: Katie H.
Subject: up to you, didnt rededitor change it?,,,nt
Message:
xcvn
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Tues, Mar 20, 2001 at 22:14:06 (GMT)
From: Katie H.
Email: None
To: la-ex
Subject: I knew one of those guys before he got rich
Message:
Won't say who, but I was very good friends with his ex-wife before, during, and after our involvement with Maharaji. (We're still good friends). When I knew them they were always broke - and often in debt. They moved to DECA because of their guilt about being householders and the opportunity of getting paid to do service. I think their highest financial aspiration at the time was just to have enough money to support their family with! They were about the most 'rank-and-file' premies you can imagine - and this person is the LAST person I would have ever imagined becoming a millionaire. (Still can't believe it, really!)

Based on what I know about subsequent happenings, which is not all that much, this guy did not make money on the 'backs of premies' at all. He learned a skill and just happened to be lucky enough to be in the right place at the right time to parlay it into a lucrative business. (Digressing, I think this is what happens to many 'millionaires' that own their own businesses - combination of luck and hard work.)

I am not even sure that this guy is still a premie - I think not, although he may be marginally involved and go to programs every few years.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Tues, Mar 20, 2001 at 23:55:35 (GMT)
From: la-ex
Email: None
To: Katie H.
Subject: The DC guy, right?..He's mega, mega rich , but...
Message:
unfortunately suffered a heart attck a few years ago..
He supposedly does an unbelievable amount of business renovating ships in S. Fla., and was always very stressed, thereby leading to his heart attack...I think he recovered, but has to take it slow for obvious reasons...
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Wed, Mar 21, 2001 at 00:31:44 (GMT)
From: Katie H.
Email: None
To: la-ex
Subject: I think we talked about this before
Message:
I think his ex told me about the heart attack too - have to say that I'm not surprised. If you remember her, she is doing very well. I see her every few years, and she's graduating from law school this spring, and I plan to be there if I can - she's an inspiration to all of us late-bloomers, not to mention extremely bright, socially conscious, and capable, and someone who will be a GREAT public sector lawyer. BTW, she supports this site wholeheartedly - just doesn't have time to post on the forum because of working full-time combined with going to law school, as I'm sure you can imagine. And she loved the LOTU video, which I sent to her as a present - she was one of the people who slept in the Coca-Cola factory.

Thanks, la-ex :)
Katie

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Tues, Mar 20, 2001 at 05:00:57 (GMT)
From: Tonette
Email: None
To: la-ex
Subject: I'm glad to see someone ..
Message:
I'm glad to see some people got something for their effort.

By chance did you leave Michael Dettmers name off the list?

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Tues, Mar 20, 2001 at 04:02:03 (GMT)
From: Guy
Email: None
To: Tonette
Subject: Before you go I have a question
Message:
The aircraft chair business became a premie owned company called Aircraft Modular Products (short version of story) -- located in the complex.

When AMP was purchased by a large corporation several years ago, the stockholders made big bucks, some millions.

I'm not sure the new name, or if it's the same name.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Tues, Mar 20, 2001 at 04:16:37 (GMT)
From: Richard
Email: None
To: Guy
Subject: AMP now = B.E. Aerospace
Message:
AMP was sold to B.E. Aerospace for something like $165 million. Someone in Miami said that each of the key employees and investors, including M, received several $million each for their shares. The CEO ended up with around $65 million. Naturally there were some hard feelings among non-shareholders and guilt among the new millionaires
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Tues, Mar 20, 2001 at 04:11:28 (GMT)
From: Guy
Email: None
To: Guy
Subject: Before you go I have a question -- further
Message:
Thinking about this some more, I realize that several other ex-DECA employees, who started their own businesses (out of DECA) are quite well to do, if not already millionaires. In the interest of their privacy, I won't mention any names.
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Tues, Mar 20, 2001 at 04:16:47 (GMT)
From: Tonette
Email: None
To: Guy
Subject: Thank you and.....
Message:
I'm so glad to see you are totally embittered by your time in the cult.

My best to you
Tonette

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Tues, Mar 20, 2001 at 02:30:18 (GMT)
From: Richard
Email: None
To: Guy Rollins
Subject: Great narrative Guy
Message:
Thanks for walking us through those experiences. Stay away if you must but you're most welcome to return. Your contributions are appreciated by us and the many others who visit here.

Richard - I think I hear the sound of a beam splitting

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Tues, Mar 20, 2001 at 03:18:38 (GMT)
From: Cynthia
Email: None
To: Richard
Subject: Many Thanks, Guy...
Message:
Guy,

I can just see that grin of yours...:))

I know he was very rough on you. I remember it so well. I have to say you guys were very good at keeping your emotions at bay. I know he said awful things to you, I'm honored that you have answered my questions, Guy. I don't ever remember you or Hession talking about your meetings. Sadly ironic that he didn't know that he doesn't know EVERYTHING!!!

Yet, I agree, being in that room with him, at that time, adoring him then and feeling as if I were the luckiest premie in the world, for whatever reason I came to believe that about him, there were some fantastic experiences.

We laughed a lot, too. In the design room we laughed constantly, and when we were tired we'd laugh and cry. We didn't know any better then. It was a wacko bunch and I loved them all. I was their bossy mother and they joked about it. And I loved to complain, too. All this before real computers, can you imagine? All hand drawings! Amazing work was done there. And my cohort, you know who I mean, would make authentic chai at 4:00 am or some ridicultus hour and all the guys in the shop would line up with their cups and by the time they got they're cupful, my cohort would look in the bottom of the 2 gallon pan and shrug and say ''back to work, whatever.'' Such talent and people abused by m.

Thank you for expressing in eloquent words answers to questions I've had for years and years about you. I was pushy with you, but if you remember, being pushy got our job done, many times. I've been called bossy since I was a child, and I still am.

I hope your life makes you happy. I sounds as if you are busy with work. Best wishes,

Love,
Cynthia

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Tues, Mar 20, 2001 at 03:52:43 (GMT)
From: Scott Cronin
Email: None
To: Cynthia
Subject: Many Thanks, Guy...
Message:
Guy: thankyou for your lucid recollections. i appreciate the memories that present the facts w/o the addition of implication or inflated assumptions. My recollections of my time at DECA, though consumed by the day to day details of purchasing and q.c. were filled w/ unique and inspiring events. I know for some it was wierd and oppressive in retrospect. i guess I'm in denial.Scott
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Tues, Mar 20, 2001 at 04:20:37 (GMT)
From: Cynthia
Email: None
To: Scott Cronin
Subject: I think we know eachother, Scott...
Message:
I was Cindy in the Design dept.

Anyway, you're not in denial about the feelings of oppression. There was constant pressure. Recycling it is painful. I have to say, that it was the premies, not M, who made the experience worthwhile.

It's unfortunate that we were always separated so abruptly, especially at DECA. I burnt out and I was of no more use. Yet, when I remember how I felt back then, the constant joking around, the anticipation of seeing who I believed was someone very special, someone who I intensely believed was my Lord, capital L, then I can salvage some small morsel of a good memory, with my ''sisters and brothers and friends'' (Not HIM)!

I remember your name and face back then. Purchasing Dept.?

Best,
Cynthia (Cindy)

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Tues, Mar 20, 2001 at 04:43:09 (GMT)
From: scott
Email: None
To: Cynthia
Subject: I think we know eachother, Scott...
Message:
Cindy: I'm not good w/ faces to names, but i'm sure we had interfaces that i would remember fondly.... I had a great time at IMMCO/DECA. I regret not being more aware of the good,talented folks that contributed their sweat and tears(i didn't see much blood.) the unique environment didn't support the strengthening of friendships. it's been 20+ years...wow! many things have changed, but the memories are not ones of deprivation for me.Be well and thrive. Scott
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Tues, Mar 20, 2001 at 01:24:40 (GMT)
From: donner
Email: mdonner@netidea.com
To: erika
Subject: email
Message:
please email me sooner then later please thanks
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Tues, Mar 20, 2001 at 02:09:55 (GMT)
From: Mail sorter
Email: None
To: donner
Subject: Above message is for Erika /nt
Message:
nt
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Tues, Mar 20, 2001 at 01:05:56 (GMT)
From: swami suchabanana
Email: None
To: donner
Subject: To donner:jigsaw puzzle pieces- m., Fakir + Pieman
Message:
Dear Michael Donner:

some burning questions/unresolved issues quoted/reposted from below (by anon):

'VERY IMPORTANT - bringing something to closure for many people after 28 years:
There are some serious questions about the timeline and m.'s knowledge of/involvement in: 1) the conspiracy to murder reporter Pat Halley in August '73, and 2) the subsequent felony conspiracy he personally authorized to get the fugitives out of the US before they could be apprehended by the law.

It appears m pretended to disavow any impending revenge or assassination, on the one hand, but encouraged it on the other hand through his outright displays of anger [after the pie-throwing incident at the Detroit City Hall], his verbal asides to the mahatmas and DLM honchos, and the fact that he made no effort whatsoever to prevent the 'hit', even though he was apparently aware beforehand [what did he know, when, and what did he do, etc.?].

Then, after the murder attempt barely failed, you recently related here that m. ordered you to Detroit to 'get Fakiranand out of the country' -- thereby committing a criminal felony and engaging others in criminal racketeering -- just like the Mafia's Godfather. What do you know about Fakiranand and Fletcher's involvement/arrangements, r.e. how they set it up, who paid for their plane tickets to Detroit [and later out of the country], where they [and m.] were when m. told you to go to Detroit [was this the same day as the 'hit' , or the next day, etc.?]

Since statutes of limitations have clearly expired and there was a $10,000 settlement later paid to Pat, anyway, could you now Please tell everyone here EVERYTHING you know and can possibly remember about the facts/details/those involved in the 1) assassination attempt and the 2) subsequent flight from justice conspiracies, what you heard/or were told/was said, Witnessed, what you/they did, what Happened, the Logistics: in a Factual Chronological Sequence -- in Denver, then in Detroit, then Chicago, etc. and right afterwards organizationally [DLM spin-doctoring, settlement] r.e. this situation?

Other participants, witnesses you are aware of, and who else besides Fakiranand and Fletcher, who else in the car to Chicago, + you mentioned Rajeshwar's and other mahatmas' involvement? [thought he was once a judge, too!], etc.

Also, during the last phone calls between Denver and the Detroit ashram while Fakiranand was still there, some said you were going up and down the stairs relaying info to Fakiranand and someone else waiting in the car outside in front, and that one of the last phone calls [if not the last] before you left in the car for Chicago was a conversation with maharaji (according to Richard Royal, ashram general secretary, as related that night to other premies). What was Really going on?

Been wondering (along with others) for 28 years... Your indepth thoughtful response will also help clarify this subject in regard to the related epo site info already posted about the very serious m-Fakiranand-Halley matter.

Also, even believing that m might be the Lard of the Universe at that time, didn't you question his agya to commit a felony and to engage you and others in a criminal felony [on top of the murder attempt], and didn't you have any doubts, or misapprehensions? Why didn't you simply refuse the Godfather's assignment or immediately contact the police? Were you fearful, brainwashed to justify it somehow, or was this just more heavy business for the Lard? It frankly seems, in retrospect, that he deliberately selected people as his close subordinates who would do just about anything for him, unquestioningly, and without remorse or critical thinking...

Some of the former premie 'pawns' innocently and unwittingly involved in related 'service' in these same matters have expressed how they literally Agonized for years over the fact that they were 'used' by the DLM and/or ashram honchos to somehow assist the perpetrators, and that they didn't realize the ramifications of what was even happening until later; they were simply lied to by the premies in authority. Some DLM and Detroit ashram honchos obviously knew all along and didn't tell them, as these 'pawns' were ordered about on important organizational business, getting gas, food, reservations, guarding telephones from eavesdroppers, keeping Fakiranand away from the other inquisitive premies, etc.

For their sakes, please...'

I agree, for everybody's sake that was ever involved in the cult - please clarify these matters, as best you can. Thanks.

Peace and lentils,

da lil' swami

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Tues, Mar 20, 2001 at 14:48:31 (GMT)
From: Way
Email: None
To: swami suchabanana
Subject: such, please email re Pat Halley (nt)
Message:
nt
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Tues, Mar 20, 2001 at 17:57:37 (GMT)
From: Way
Email: wwilliam@kumc.edu
To: Way
Subject: such, please email me re Pat Halley
Message:
Here's email address.
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Wed, Mar 21, 2001 at 00:53:36 (GMT)
From: such
Email: None
To: Way
Subject: Yaweh! done did it; check your... (mtv
Message:
maharaji telepathic viewfinder
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Tues, Mar 20, 2001 at 01:20:13 (GMT)
From: donner
Email: None
To: swami suchabanana
Subject: To donner:jigsaw puzzle pieces- m., Fakir + Pieman
Message:
please see la ex below for just posted answer
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Mon, Mar 19, 2001 at 20:27:18 (GMT)
From: La-ex
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: 2 Mikes: ever see any of this behavior from M?....
Message:
THE SIX STRATEGIES USED BY CHARISMATIC LEADERS TO PRESERVE THEIR AUTHORITY:

1)First, to keep followers off balance and their attention on the words and wishes of the charismatic leader, he or she may alter the doctrines and policies, sometimes wery suddenly.

Shifts like these are intended to attract new members and tap new sources, but they are also used to force some of the old guard to the margins of the movement while elevating new people to the inner circle of devotees. The shifts have a levelling effect that reasserts the superiority of the leader to his or her followers.

Meanwhile, the new structures of training, administration, and rewards that accompany the shifts fracture the patterns of influence and the personal and professional alliances that had been established within the organization.

The change itself keeps the followers busy and diverted from challenging the prerogatives of the charismatic leader. In the face of new ways of doing things, all become equally dependent, once again, on the guiding wisdom of the leader.

2)Second, some charismatic leaders may need to seek constant reaffirmations of the loyalty of their followers.
This leads to an escalation of the demands they place on members for personal sevice and sacrifice to the group.
This, too, is what many of the shifts in doctrine, policy, and practices are about.

3)Third, like apocalyptic teachings, the socially precarious circumstances of charismatically led groups reinforce the tendency of the members to 'demonize' their enemies (real or imagined).

By condemning the acts of others, the leaders can divert attention from their own failings and those of the group and provide a convenient excuse for the group's troubles.

In the oldest political ploy known to humanity, the internal solidarity of the members is galvanized by the leaders call for unity in the face of new internal or external threats.

4)Fourth, charismatic leaders will often call into question the inspired messages of all competitors for authority, both external and internal to the group.

As a rule dissent is stifled through the careful control of information and the public use of ridicule and other means of peer pressure.

Any apparent source of alternative leadership arising within the group is marginalized or simply ejected.

Small and relatively inconsequential challenges to the authority of leaders are often seized upon as a pretext for fomenting a sense of crisis, effecting a shift in practices, justifying the movement of people in and out of the inner circle of the leader, and discrediting or expelling lieutenants who appear to be too popular or influential.

5)Fifth, similarly, many charismatic leaders seek to test the loyalty of their followers, heighten the emotional dependence of their followers, and generally disrupt potential sources of alternative authority by criticizing or actually physically separating couples or other close pairings within the group.

The bonds of romantic love or even just good friendship must not be allowed to take precedence over the affective tie of each individual to the charismatic leader.

6)Sixth, when all else fails, and sometimes earlier, some charismatic leaders have tried to consolidate their control and diminish countervailing influences by changing the location, and hence the operating environment, of their groups.

Often these moves are to a more isolated spot.
(i.e.-Jim Jones, from Indianapolis to California, to jungle of Guyana. Moses David,leader of Children of God, moved from So. California to Europe, South America and then the Far East. Solar Temple, from Switzerland, to France, then Quebec. Church Universal and Triumphant, from California to Montana. Rajneesh, from India to Oregon. Bo and Peep, from Texas to Oregon, then Wyoming. Trungpa, from trendy Boulder, to provincial Halifax, Nova Scotia.)

By these and other means some groups may enter into a cycle of 'deviance amplification'.

The attempt to resist the routinization of charisma can sometimes lead to a progressive intensification and aggrandizement of the leader's power, along with increased homogenization and dependence of the followers, thereby setting the conditions for the charismatic leader to indulge the 'Darker Desires of their Subconscious......'

Any of you PAMS recognize any of these signs?

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Tues, Mar 20, 2001 at 00:36:13 (GMT)
From: donner
Email: None
To: La-ex
Subject: 2 Mikes: ever see any of this behavior from M?....
Message:
la-ex...you have got to be kidding...i have seen, as we all have, many signs of all 6 or these traits. i will work on some examples from you own experience and personal observation...another largish task from the creator of large questions.
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Tues, Mar 20, 2001 at 00:50:49 (GMT)
From: such
Email: None
To: donner
Subject: remember that day in Detroit? I was there, too...
Message:
back in August, 1973.

Please rsvp to the post below at your earliest... thanks in advance, on behalf of a lot of other people, too. we are putting the jigsaw puzzle pieces together - I see you have some, too.

Peace and lentils,

da lil' swami

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Mon, Mar 19, 2001 at 23:56:05 (GMT)
From: suchabanana
Email: None
To: Donner (via La-ex)
Subject: On Donner, Blitzmen, and [Halley's] Comet - RSVP
Message:
To Michael Donner:

some burning questions/unresolved issues quoted/reposted from below (by anon):

'VERY IMPORTANT - bringing something to closure for many people after 28 years:

There are some serious questions about the timeline and m.'s knowledge of/involvement in: 1) the conspiracy to murder reporter Pat Halley in August '73, and 2) the subsequent felony conspiracy he personally authorized to get the fugitives out of the US before they could be apprehended by the law.

It appears m pretended to disavow any impending revenge or assassination, on the one hand, but encouraged it on the other hand through his outright displays of anger [after the pie-throwing incident at the Detroit City Hall], his verbal asides to the mahatmas and DLM honchos, and the fact that he made no effort whatsoever to prevent the 'hit', even though he was apparently aware beforehand [what did he know, when, and what did he do, etc.?].

Then, after the murder attempt barely failed, you recently related here that m. ordered you to Detroit to 'get Fakiranand out of the country' -- thereby committing a criminal felony and engaging others in criminal racketeering -- just like the Mafia's Godfather. What do you know about Fakiranand and Fletcher's involvement/arrangements, r.e. how they set it up, who paid for their plane tickets to Detroit [and later out of the country], where they [and m.] were when m. told you to go to Detroit [was this the same day as the 'hit' , or the next day, etc.?]

Since statutes of limitations have clearly expired and there was a $10,000 settlement later paid to Pat, anyway, could you now Please tell everyone here EVERYTHING you know and can possibly remember about the facts/details/those involved in the 1) assassination attempt and the 2) subsequent flight from justice conspiracies, what you heard/or were told/was said, Witnessed, what you/they did, what Happened, the Logistics: in a Factual Chronological Sequence -- in Denver, then in Detroit, then Chicago, etc. and right afterwards organizationally [DLM spin-doctoring, settlement] r.e. this situation?

Other participants, witnesses you are aware of, and who else besides Fakiranand and Fletcher, who else in the car to Chicago, + you mentioned Rajeshwar's and other mahatmas' involvement? [thought he was once a judge, too!], etc.

Also, during the last phone calls between Denver and the Detroit ashram while Fakiranand was still there, some said you were going up and down the stairs relaying info to Fakiranand and someone else waiting in the car outside in front, and that one of the last phone calls [if not the last] before you left in the car for Chicago was a conversation with maharaji (according to Richard Royal, ashram general secretary, as related that night to other premies). What was Really going on?

Been wondering (along with others) for 28 years... Your indepth thoughtful response will also help clarify this subject in regard to the related epo site info already posted about the very serious m-Fakiranand-Halley matter.

Also, even believing that m might be the Lard of the Universe at that time, didn't you question his agya to commit a felony and to engage you and others in a criminal felony [on top of the murder attempt], and didn't you have any doubts, or misapprehensions? Why didn't you simply refuse the Godfather's assignment or immediately contact the police? Were you fearful, brainwashed to justify it somehow, or was this just more heavy business for the Lard? It frankly seems, in retrospect, that he deliberately selected people as his close subordinates who would do just about anything for him, unquestioningly, and without remorse or critical thinking...

Some of the former premie 'pawns' innocently and unwittingly involved in related 'service' in these same matters have expressed how they literally Agonized for years over the fact that they were 'used' by the DLM and/or ashram honchos to somehow assist the perpetrators, and that they didn't realize the ramifications of what was even happening until later; they were simply lied to by the premies in authority. Some DLM and Detroit ashram honchos obviously knew all along and didn't tell them, as these 'pawns' were ordered about on important organizational business, getting gas, food, reservations, guarding telephones from eavesdroppers, keeping Fakiranand away from the other inquisitive premies, etc.

For their sakes, please...'

I agree, for everybody's sake that was ever involved in the cult - please clarify these matters, as best you can. Thanks.

Peace and lentils,

da lil' swami

PS To La-ex: got those color photos (telephoto lens) of the manse from top of Trancas Canyon Road yet? epo could sure use 'em...

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Tues, Mar 20, 2001 at 01:18:33 (GMT)
From: donner
Email: None
To: suchabanana
Subject: On Donner, Blitzmen, and [Halley's] Comet - RSVP
Message:
i really do not have much to add...i have racked my brain for details of memory...too long ago. remember, i was fairly new to the denver scene and very new to closeness to m. i had just began as misler's assistant some months before...as i remember.

i was in denver when the pie happened and pat was attacked. i have zero info on m's reaction...comments to mahatmas in english or hindi.

some mahatmas had gathered in detroit for the city key thing and maybe there was evena program, not sure. my memtal picture of the scene then was of mahatmas and wanna be s like fletcher being outraged and disussing revenge. certainly the indian/hindi culture was revenge and quick reprisal on any attack on any guru...part of the culture there. m's close aid bihari singh (sp) was in trouble with the police in india for example for some attempted murder and attacks from disadents and rival cults were part of the indian landscape from which these guys all came.

perhaps unspoken was raja ji in detroit stirring them up some...calling them on their loyalty to strike back..

but its easy for me to imagine that all that could have taken place without m's knowledge or prompting. there were times when i clearly got the impression that he was trying to rein in raja ji and others around such matters. but i really did not know then nor do i know now.

my impression at the tme was that m was truely upset with the attack on pat and upset with raja ji and the mahatmas involved.
he had to be careful where he sent these guys...fakiranand was fairly loyal to mata ji then so sendinghim to india was one thing. rajaswar was on the fence and he didn't want him in india at that time for reasons i do not remember now.

as far as my own feelings then...doubts etc. i was a true believer in those years. getting them out of detroit to chicago and on to india was not a big deal to me then. no hesitation. that is not to say that i didn't have my own lines not to cross., i was not into violence personally then nor now...but as an anti war radical i had seen rough stuff.

perhaps this trip was my initiation into the inner circle, no doubt m looked for loyalty and signs of it. i am not proud of many things i did for m like this situation. mostly not proud of my silence in the years around him and his hypocricy.

m was trying to become a world class humanitarian leader during his tour to collect city keys, etc. DUO came a bit later, all part of same...so he was not happy with fakiranand et al. yet he clearly understood the culture they came from...he came from same.

where the money came from to fly them to india (him or them i am not sure...still seems like there was one other mahatma) from dlm denver of course...probably tickets were arranged thru travel agent in denver and waiting in chicago as i recall. rental car via detroit ashram arrangements as i remember. only few if anyone on a need to know basis only were told about tripp from detroit to chicago...wasn't the wpc involved ...wasn't it a wpc ashram in detroit that was the base for this out of the country move? some memory of that, but...is richard royal still around or speaking out? what would/did he say.

sorry i cannot remember more...if i do i will post.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Tues, Mar 20, 2001 at 03:18:08 (GMT)
From: suchabanana
Email: None
To: donner
Subject: thanks,Michael. r.e.WPC involvement,yes. ALSO...
Message:
Michael,

I know the WPC [World Peace Corps, aka world police corps] was operating in Detroit then because I was enlisted for various 'service', including some stuff involving you when you were there in Detroit regarding the Fakiranand situation. (However, we foot soldier pawns were never told what was even going on, at the time. It was just: 'here, we need you to do this service, brother, do that, and then go and do such and such, etc....')

When you were upstairs on the phone with Denver at the Detroit ashram, what was happening? Richard Royal said m. was on one of the last calls that took place. I was assigned to guard the other phones, among other things, to make sure no one disturbed or overheard your 'important organizational business calls' with Denver, etc.

Also, who was the 3rd guy we saw in the car, besides you and Fakiranand? And what the heck ever happened to Richard Fletcher?

How did you get in touch w/ Fakiranad et al? They weren't at the ashram until later in the day, I seem to recall. (I know, it's hard to remember after all these years.) I wonder where they were hiding out, in the meantime? Then, they just showed up for awhile outside the ashram, and satsang was just starting inside, and after all the arrangements were finally made on the phone, you guys took off for Chicago. Was Chicago ashram in on the arrangements, too? Word was later relayed back to the investigating Detroit authorities that the Chicago ashram was holding the guys in 'protective custody' --- which turned out to be bs. (Wasn't Sharon Stokke the Chicago DUO director at that time?)

Raja ji was the one inciting the mahatmas? I knew it had to be a member of the so-called 'holy family'. Also, premies in Detroit were upset about the embarrassing front-page pie incident, because we had been doing intensive p.r. and propagation for the upcoming Cobo Hall tour event, which subsequently got cancelled shortly thereafter.

What was m's reaction when you got back to Denver, or if you contacted him sooner?

Do you know anything about the spin-doctoring DLM did r.e. the whole affair afterwards and how it was distorted and portrayed to the premies and the public, and what was going on at DLM regarding the eventual small settlement with Pat Halley?

Lastly and most importantly here, in other words, to reiterate for the entire world the underlying fundamental point that remains: Maharaji personally ordered you, using DLM church funds, to become directly involved in facilitating a criminal conspiracy to get the DLM fugitive-operatives in the Halley assassination attempt out of the country (i.e. the meeting where he personally directed you to 'get Fakiranand out of the country'), so that US law authorities would not apprehend them, and bring them to trial -- in order to protect his organization, and his own tenuous position at the time (and possibly his own brother, Raja ji) from the prospects of a huge scandal, including incriminating evidence and suspicious circumstances?

To date, the truth surrounding these matters has never fully come to light. And m. has never been called to account (nor Raja ji for his actions) for his own direct culpability in the federally criminal conspiracy to aid and abet the DLM felony fugitives who almost succeeded in murdering Pat Halley -- in revenge for Halley throwing a cream pie in m.'s face.

Thanks, again.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Tues, Mar 20, 2001 at 18:24:30 (GMT)
From: donner
Email: None
To: suchabanana
Subject: thanks,Michael. r.e.WPC involvement,yes. ALSO...
Message:
hi agian about this fakiranand thing...i do not remember who i was on the phone with...most likely misler..mostly likely about flight arrangements from chicago.

where were they hiding before arriving to ashram to leave for chicago airport? i do not remember except that it was arranged to keep fakiranand and the unremembered other under control until i arrived. probably wpc thing...did they have their own ashram in detroit?

no, chicago ashram was not involved.

richard fletcher...no memory of him later though he and his brother (twin) were considered 'bongos' in denver.

crimminal conspiracy? in some sense yes in retrospect..though no charges were brought before they fled, were flown.

yes to the general story line above.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Tues, Mar 20, 2001 at 19:27:24 (GMT)
From: Bobby
Email: None
To: donner
Subject: Fletchers in India
Message:
I remember the Fletcher twins from India '72. They had a rep for meditation -- hours and hours of meditation perhaps by the banks of the Ganges out back of PremNagar.

Long periods of meditation was seens as a positive, 'holy' quality in those days, at least in some circles.

Anybody remember the all-night meditations circa 72-73? These happened regularly for a time, at least in New York City.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Tues, Mar 20, 2001 at 07:13:45 (GMT)
From: Marianne
Email: None
To: suchabanana
Subject: WPC in Detroit
Message:
The head of the WPC in Detroit at this time was Dean Zito, who died in a small plane accident some years ago in Boulder. I was very close to him. He was a wonderful, soft spoken person, who was not into violence of any sort. In fact, he did not fit the WPC 'heavy' personality type at all. He was totally devastated by the pie incident and thought something terrible was going to happen to him -- that the Lord of the Universe would take retribution on him because it was obviously his -- Dean's -- fault that this happened.

Mike, from my talks with Dean about this, it seemed the Denver WPC was really who controlled everything because M was there in person. such, is that your impression?

Marianne

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Tues, Mar 20, 2001 at 09:29:17 (GMT)
From: such
Email: None
To: Marianne
Subject: WPC clearly top-down fr Denver. Also,Raja ji angle
Message:
Marianne:

Donner just reminded me of another very curious set of important, too coincidental circumstances:

What about Raja ji's own deep relationship with the WPC, too? [World Peace Corps - m's extended security force (for any newcomers here)] At least for awhile there, it was His pet project delegated by lil' bro Prem. {just like Bhole ji had his band Blue Aquarius] Also, Raja ji was there in Detroit, too, reportedly inciting the angry Indian mahatmas, WPC and other devotees in the days right BEFORE one of them [Fakiranand] finally went with Fletcher to 'whack' Halley.

Hey, Raja ji, what's the skinny on the Halley 'hit', dude? Did You instigate it? And was Prem ordering Donner to get the high-ranking assassins out of the country fast to protect You, too, as well as himself and his tenuous position at the time [given the developing power struggle within the Rawat family, especially vis a vis Mata ji and BalBhagwanji (aka Satpal)]?!

...sure reminds one of the Mafia's Gambino brothers and their gang mentality, power feuds, and operations at the Chateau Renaissance back in Jersey... Remember, too, it was after the 'hit' and the family power struggle soon thereafter that m. and raja ji posed triumphantly as Mafia gangsters in the official org 'And It Is Divine' magazine. Literally acting out their teen cinema fantasies in the material world, huh?!

If it weren't for the internet, none of this evil DLM stuff m. et al were involved with would ever have stood a chance of getting pieced together, after so many years.

Anyone else with information about the insider conspiracy to murder reporter Pat Halley, and/or the subsequent aiding and abetting of the DLM honcho fugitives, and the DLM coverup and spin-doctoring, etc.??!!

The substantive facts clearly support the following: criminal involvement of Maharaji himself and DLM at the highest levels:

r.e. criminal murder conspiracy and the resulting murder attempt:
motive - obvious revenge for the public pie-throwing
principals - Fakiranand, Fletcher, Rajeshwar, Raja ji, WPC, top DLM officials and operatives who reported to m.
witnesses - Fakiranand, Halley, Halley's roommates, and others 'anon' [for the moment]

r.e. criminal conspiracy to aid and abet the fugitives:
motive - organizational cover-up, and protect m. and raja ji's positions
principals - Maharaji (he ordered it), Donner, DLM officials at headquarters, Denver and Detroit WPC officials, Detroit, Chicago, and Delhi ashram honchos, and the fugitives themselves.
witnesses - Donner, Richard Royal, me, and several others 'anon'

This stuff stinks -- real bad! It's time m's and EVI's [aka DLM] own rotten vegetables were pulled out of the basement for the public's knowledge and interests, on these specific matters. The process is still on-going, but proceeding to a conclusive summary report. By posting this information here, we are asserting and demonstrating the inherent truth and credibility of the substantive facts, allegations, accounts, events, and related circumstances presented already on this site, and as presented and discussed within this open public forum.

r.e. statutes of limitations - very lucky for 'you know who.' But the truth itself may yet prove to be the undoing of a karma chameleon.

Peace and lentils,

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Thurs, Mar 22, 2001 at 04:58:56 (GMT)
From: Francesca
Email: None
To: such
Subject: Spin control -- bad press can be worse than
Message:
legal action. People in high places often worry just as much about what will appear in the NY Times, LA Times, etc., and how it will sound, than whether or not they've broken the law.
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Thurs, Mar 22, 2001 at 05:17:15 (GMT)
From: such
Email: None
To: Francesca
Subject: Yep, I used to be a news editor... (nt
Message:
nt
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Tues, Mar 20, 2001 at 18:29:32 (GMT)
From: donner
Email: None
To: such
Subject: WPC clearly top-down fr Denver. Also,Raja ji angle
Message:
yes, denver wpc controlled wpc in states for few years until m slowly put it under his control...not wanting to move too fast to do so as raja ji was the wpc top guy and that was his power base and in the whole holy family thing m was trying not to alienate raja ji...still does what he can to not do so even though raja costs m a fortune over the years (premies a fortune really). often stuff would happen via wpc that m would only find out about later and usually not happy about it. lemon was raja ji's right hand...all clock and dagger stuff with lemon.
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Tues, Mar 20, 2001 at 04:27:49 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: suchabanana
Subject: And thank YOU, such. This is better than Puffy
Message:
Besides, as Laurie just loves to point out, J-Lo's got a fat ass. So there!

I think it's important as well to note the dangerous tack m took with this Fakiranand pie thing in that he did nothing at all to suggest that his cult was not above the law even when it came to murder. Could it have made a difference? Maybe. Maybe the freak in Tallahasse or Gainesville wouldn't have shot those girls after getting 'inner agya' in a dream if Maharaji had clearly set some limits. Of course, limits were entirely anethmatic to the Lord of the Universe. It's funny to even talk in such terms.

Sigh ... who could ever understand what it was like then? Why even premies who post here have all but forgotten. Maybe, in a way, we who've been out so long have a clearer memory of what we left behind than premies-turned-pwickies who've seen so many shades of grey-scale they can't read the lettering.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Tues, Mar 20, 2001 at 06:28:43 (GMT)
From: such
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: then,m +rajaji posed as gangsters:And it is Divine
Message:
magazine photo series, reinforcing the divinely-deluded adolescent's Godfather notion and the continued posturing of a young Lard sowing his oats, seemingly above any Laws known to humankind. Just more of the telltale clues and symbols of the cult [which is obviously not a cult, of course, since whenever].

After the Halley incidents, it then became de rigeur at m's special events for the next 2 years for m to throw cream pies in the faces of the PAMs and instructors [e.g. Queen Mary birthday party, etc.], obviously making light of the whole series of bizarre and dark events that transpired in August '73 -- like it was all just a big joke, or something -- or that m. was actually flaunting it back in everyone else's face.

I'll bet after what happened to him, Pat Halley didn't think it was such a great joke anymore. However, he still clearly relishes the fact that he helped start a trend of pie-throwing as a socio-political statement, not mere slapstick/burlesque. (Historically, though, when the Marx brothers or the 3 Stooges threw pies on screen, oftentimes it was also directed at snooty society figures, too.)

Let's consider the wild scenario of the time -the early and mid 1970s: teenaged Indian guru-kid on the loose in America with thousands of adult counterculture devotees who will do literally anything for him, a private security force of martial arts guys (some with guns), millions of bucks flowing in and out, people carrying bags with hundreds of thousands of dollars in cash across international borders, toying with police authorities in America and India and completely getting away with it, and enlisting subordinates to set up front corporations to launder the premies' slave money (technically legal, but just barely) just to keep m's personal gravy train flowing -- to support him and his extended family in ultimate luxury and obscene, conspicuous consumption, steadily making him fabulously rich, while routinely utilizing propaganda and a subservient organization completely at his disposal to systematically promulgate and enforce ritualized cult-think, obedience, and outright worship to him -- under the guise of his alleged saving grace, divine power, and spiritual mastery.

Meanwhile, the poor premies were singing adoringly 2x/day for him to save them from the ocean of Maya... Au contraire, a master of illusion himself. The only dedicated premie release and vacations? meditation itself, and the bhakti-induced, guru-love-rock festivals. A guilty feeling for even smoking a doobie, while at the Lard's own table and pleasure...

Spiritual racketeering -- maharaji the Godfather, indeed, and In Deed. 'No cheat, no deceit!' No cheat, no deceit -- really? Really?!!!!!!

Now, however, it's another matter (seemingly) - 'Knowledge-lite'. Newer premie: 'Well, I don't really know anything about all that. It's different now, anyway. So, who cares, right? I mean, how he gets his money and spends it is none of our business. I mean, he showed me these techniques of meditation, and I'm grateful to him. I enjoy practicing the knowledge, even if other people also show some of the same techniques. What's the problem or big deal, man? Like, you old premies, ex-premies and those former honchos around maharaji are just 'in your minds,' dude.' Really?! Why on earth would anyone be doing this epo site at all, then, unless some terrible scam was actually being perpetuated, and continually modulated, reinvented, and devised to cull the innocent and trusting hearts of so many - and their monetary donations, and those of the necessary new recruits, too, as many premies inevitably become disenchanted with the cult and fall away?

Can you even imagine what the genuine old yogis and ascetic teachers would have thought of this whole bastardization of ancient meditation techniques and the selfish subversion of a traditional loving and honorable guru-disciple relationship?!

So, my dear brothers and sisters, we are spreading this knowledge to every land...

Peace and lentils,

da lil' swami

PS Yes, we're probably 'obsessed', as someone alluded recently. In fact, we are probably more devoted to the actual truth than any of the remaining premies. Think of all the time people here have been spending on sorting this shit out... Maybe that just goes into the cosmic energy credit column and guarantees our own atomic liberation, haha...

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Tues, Mar 20, 2001 at 05:45:05 (GMT)
From: Francesca
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: I'd settle for a fat ass like J-Lo's bro (ot) (nt)
Message:
sho would
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Tues, Mar 20, 2001 at 01:35:32 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: donner
Subject: Thanks, Donner -- really makes a difference (nt)
Message:
eeeeee
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Mon, Mar 19, 2001 at 19:35:13 (GMT)
From: Joe
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: More on the 707/Questions for the Mikes and Guy
Message:
Man, it's hard to keep up. There is so much good stuff being said. Michael Dettmers said the following in a post in the Inactive, about how Maharaji approached projects and the cost of same. Michael said:

Often, Maharaji would look at a budget and complain that it was too expensive. The first items he always questioned were the costs required to support the premies who would be working on the project. When we cut those back to the bare bones, he might decide to cut back on some of the requirements he had specified. Inevitably, thought, he would re-instate his original requirements, and then add a few more. Whatever budget we began with got completely blown and would have to be covered by another round of fundraising.

As has been said here quite a lot, in my opinion, the most damning thing about Maharaji isn't the alcoholism, or the drugs, or sex scandals, it's his almost complete, uncarring attitude towards the premies, even those who had dedicated their lives to him, at his direction. I highlighted Michael's comment above, which is yet another illustration of that.

But I have a question about the 707 that was a particular moral problem for me, and that was that the fundraising was done while lying to the premies about the fact that the money was going to a plane project.

If you recall, originally, a decision was made to not disclose anything about the 707, and the premies were asked to send in money monthly for 'a world tour.' Those of us in organizer positions in Elan Vital, were told to not disclose this, and to simply lie to the premies about what the money was for.

Second, like Michael said, the project kept running out of money, and we kept having to pitch to the premies that they had to send in more, even, finally, disclosing the existence of the plane because we were so desperate for cash.

Do either of you know how the decision to not disclose the existence of the plane was made? How closely was Maharaji involved in the funding issues regarding the plane?

I recall in about 1980, Dennis Marciniak, who was the President of Elan Vital at the time, told me that Maharaji was really upset that the plane project was out of money, and he wanted to plane so badly, and the apparently offered to turn over the cash he got from the money donated in the darshan line at an upcoming festival, to the plane project. This was, amazingly, presented as a statement of how sacrificing M was for the plane. I know this didn't happen, but do you recall any of that?

Do you guys know how much cash M would rake in at a darshan line in a big festival? One honcho who from the Pacific reported here that M would pick up a good $250 K at programs in Australia when he did darshan, in cash, and that she sometimes had to carry cash for his personal use accross borders for M's personal use.

Do you guys, or anyone else, know more about this?

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Tues, Mar 20, 2001 at 03:18:24 (GMT)
From: Michael Dettmers
Email: dettmers@gylanix.com
To: Joe
Subject: More answers on the 707
Message:
Joe,

If you recall, originally, a decision was made to not disclose anything about the 707, and the premies were asked to send in money monthly for 'a world tour.' Those of us in organizer positions in Élan Vital were told to not disclose this, and to simply lie to the premies about what the money was for. Do either of you know how the decision to not disclose the existence of the plane was made?

Frankly, I don’t recall that fundraising for the plane was kept a secret. I don’t see how that would that have been possible with premies from all over the world congregating in Miami to work on the project?

Having said that, however, let me provide some additional information about what was going on at the time the plane was acquired that may shed some light your question. At the beginning of the project, we had not yet determined the best way to own and operate the 707. If you recall my lengthy report about what took place in 1976 leading to the revival of devotion in 1977, I described a scene where Bob Mishler gave Maharaji two weeks notice to vacate the Malibu residence. Maharaji was determined that he would never be put in that situation again, which led to the restructuring and separation of his assets from those of Élan Vital.

It should not be surprising then that Maharaji felt he should own the 707. However, his lawyers strongly advised against this idea. We had run the numbers showing that the cost of owning, operating and maintaining the plane were astronomical and Maharaji simply didn’t have the personal funds to pay for it. Besides, they argued, even if he did have the funds, it made more sense to have the organizations that were created to spread his message pay for the plane. The tax savings alone convinced Maharaji that that was the wiser course of action.

By way of background, prior to the restructuring, Maharaji’s only source of funds were the gifts that premies gave him either in person, in the mail, or in darshan lines. Under the new structure, however, he would have to have a source of funds other than the gifts to pay for his lifestyle, upon which he paid all applicable taxes. In the 1977 audit we had established a precedent with the IRS that the “gifts of love” that were bestowed upon Maharaji were exempt from taxes. However, this situation could only be sustained if Maharaji could show that his lifestyle was not dependent upon receiving those gifts. If it was, then the gifts could be classified as income because they were his sole means of support. To address this concern, I focused my energies into creating taxable sources of income for him mainly by encouraging and facilitating premies who owned businesses to make Maharaji a shareholder in their enterprises. By 1980, Maharaji generated enough income to cover most of the basics of his then current lifestyle. However, he certainly could not have paid for the 707 out of those funds.

So, in the end, our tax lawyers prevailed and, as a result, we created the Élan Vital Foundation in Switzerland to coordinate Maharaji’s worldwide tours including the operation of the 707. Looking back more than 20 years, I can only surmise that, if there was any secrecy about the fundraising at the beginning of the project, it was because we weren’t sure how we were going to structure the whole operation.

How closely was Maharaji involved in the funding issues regarding the plane? Do you guys know how much cash M would rake in at a darshan line in a big festival? One honcho who from the Pacific reported here that M would pick up a good $250 K at programs in Australia when he did darshan, in cash, and that she sometimes had to carry cash for his personal use across borders for M's personal use.

Maharaji was only involved in the funding issues in as much as I gave him periodic reports on the financial state of the project. He definitely contributed some of the money he collected in darshan lines to the plane project as well as to his many other projects including improvements to his residences.

I agree with the person who reported that at a large festival M would pick-up in the neighborhood of $250K. As far as carrying cash, I know that when we traveled around the world in the 707, we carried large sums of cash to pay for fuel, ground services and/or to cover unexpected contingencies in situations where we could not establish credit terms. Of course, anything connected with the x-rated scene such as the purchase of wine, cognac, cigarettes, dope, etc. were always paid in cash. They were never part of the books and records, and all receipts were destroyed.

Michael

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Tues, Mar 20, 2001 at 19:24:23 (GMT)
From: Joe
Email: None
To: Michael Dettmers
Subject: More answers on the 707
Message:
To address this concern, I focused my energies into creating taxable sources of income for him mainly by encouraging and facilitating premies who owned businesses to make Maharaji a shareholder in their enterprises.

Michael, how did Maharaji get around the possibility of this looking like a sham? It would seem to me, that if the IRS looked at it closely, that these 'shares' that Maharaji got in those businesses were also 'gifts of love,' which, at least legally, they undoubtedly were. I mean, he certainly didn't do anything to earn them, and if he invested in the companies, that would just be taking cash he got from premies as gifts and 'invest' them in those businesses. How did that work?

How much encouraging did you have to do for those businesses to give Maharaji shares? And how was that done? Did large shareholders just donate some of their shares to Maharaji?

And how did Maharaji get income out of those shares? Was it through the payment of dividends? Was there some other kind of income they paid him?

My understanding re Amtext is that Amtext just gave Maharaji the profits of the company as a gift, and that Chuck Nathan described M as 'the beneficial owner' of Amtext to a large number of people over the years, although hiding M's involvement from non-premies who worked for the company. Apparently, M is now THE owner of Amtext, according to La-Ex.

Thanks.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Tues, Mar 20, 2001 at 18:26:16 (GMT)
From: Katie H.
Email: None
To: Michael Dettmers
Subject: Thanks so much, Michael
Message:
This post really clears up a lot of the confusion here about the Maharaji's vulnerablility to audits by the IRS, laws about charity, etc. Appreciate it.

I also think he was quite lucky to have you and some good tax lawyers working for him.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Tues, Mar 20, 2001 at 03:58:56 (GMT)
From: Joe
Email: None
To: Michael Dettmers
Subject: More answers on the 707
Message:
Thanks Michael, just a couple of comments and questions. Your answers are putting a lot of the pieces of the puzzle together for me.

Frankly, I don’t recall that fundraising for the plane was kept a secret. I don’t see how that would that have been possible with premies from all over the world congregating in Miami to work on the project?

At least in the beginning, it defintely was a secret. I was in Chicago when the fundraising began and it was all in the name of a 'world tour.' Then, in May, 1979, I was sent to IHQ, and that's when I first heard about the plane. When I got sent later that year to DC to be coordinator, it still wasn't known to the vast majority of community premies that there was a plane, and we were still fundraising for a 'world tour.'

Obviously, more and more premies began to find out about it as they got sent to Miami to work on the plane, and as I said, by sometime in 1980, in the course of several emergency fundraisers to keep the plane project from tanking, it was finally publicly revealed.

In what businesses did Maharaji become a shareholder? Was Premark one? Was Amtext one? How about Deltek?

I also recall during that period there was a major push to get premies to donate not only to Elan Vital, but to send money via check made out to Guru Maharaj Ji, and send them to Malibu. So, I guess this was in line with the separation of the mission finances and Maharaji's finances. The ashrams I lived in sent Maharaji himself 10% of their income and also 10% to Elan Vital. This would have been around 1977-1979 period.

Actually, the ex-premie told me that she carried cash accross country borders in violation of currency laws so Maharaji could have cash for his personal use. For example, she mentioned a 'vacation' in Bali, in which Maharaji and his family spent $15,000 per day on vacation accommodations (and probably lots of cognac and drugs).

Here's something I've been thinking of asking for awhile. Where did Maharaji buy his dope?

Thanks, Michael

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Wed, Mar 21, 2001 at 05:47:51 (GMT)
From: la-ex
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: recent anecdote about amtext...
Message:
Joe-

A book buyer recently called up amtext and asked them if M is the owner of amtext.
He is a devout christian and was obviously repulsed by M having anything to do with his work efforts.

After hemming and hawing, one of the premies admitted that they did indeed know of M, but said that their only connection to M is that they attended a lecture by him about once a year or so....(they are actually totally involved with many personal things around Miami for M...)

He told them they were full of shit, and quit on the spot.

BTW, when he asked the premie if they were a Christian or not, they replied they were.
He asked what they did as a Christian, and their response was that they were baptized....
He replied-'Have you done anything else in the last 50 years with Christianity?'
A long pause from the premie at amtext, and the Christian buyer knew that amtext wasn't his type of place...
Also, a non-premie (Christian) in the amtext office was quite interested in the M connection, and said that it really bothered him...

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Wed, Mar 21, 2001 at 18:15:52 (GMT)
From: Joe
Email: None
To: la-ex
Subject: Interesting, La-Ex
Message:
Because I think you remember Joey was saying something about this some time ago, although at that time, he believed Chuck Nathan, and maybe some others, actually owned Amtext, and Maharaji as just the 'beneficial owner,' getting the profits.

Now that Maharaji owns the business outright, maybe that ought to be publicized. That should just be public information, and ought to be out there, especially if the cult is lying about it.

I wonder what Chuck Nathan got out of all this, other than the chance to 'participate?'

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Thurs, Mar 22, 2001 at 00:28:39 (GMT)
From: Forum archives
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: Interesting, La-Ex
Message:
Date: Fri, Apr 30, 1999 at 21:55:46 (EDT)
From: Blue Bird
Email: None
To: NIM
Subject: AmText FYI
Message:
BUSINESS TYPE: Corporation - DATE INCORPORATED: 12/04/1985
Profit STATE OF INCORP: Florida
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Business started 1985 by officers. 100% of capital stock is
owned by officers.

CHARLES NATHAN. Background unavailable.
P D POTTER. Background unavailable.
PAULA C BLANCHE. Background unavailable.
ROBERT A JACOBS. Background unavailable.
MICHAEL V DETTMERS. Background unavailable

Amtext Inc
Text Mart
11900 Biscayne Blvd
Miami, FL 33181-2743

TELEPHONE: 305-892-0900
COUNTY: DADE MSA: 5000 (Miami, FL)
REGION: South Atlantic

BUSINESS: Wholesales and Retails Books Periodicals and Newspapers

PRIMARY SIC:
5192 Books, periodicals, and newspapers
51929901 Books

SECONDARY SIC(S):
5942 Book stores
59420000 Book stores, nsk

LATEST YEAR ORGANIZED: 1985
STATE OF INCORPORATION: FL DATE OF INCORPORATION: 12/04/1985
ANNUAL SALES REVISION DATE: 01/03/1998

LATEST TREND BASE
YEAR YEAR YEAR
(1996) (1994)

SALES $ 1,400,000E $ NA $ NA

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Tues, Mar 20, 2001 at 13:20:42 (GMT)
From: Michael Dettmers
Email: dettmers@gylanix.com
To: Joe
Subject: More answers
Message:
Joe,

I not arguing with your memory but let me add that Maharaji continued to tour and do large programs between the time he told me he wanted his own flying residence, and June 1980 when the 707 project was finally completed. Despite M’s aversion to using chartered aircraft following the Rome incident, we continued to charter large aircraft with executive interiors for his tours until the 707 was ready. So there was a period of time when we were fundraising for world tours involving the charter of expensive aircraft, and simultaneously moving forward with the purchase and refurbishment of the 707. I don’t remember how all of that information was communicated from a fundraising perspective, but it is very possible that funds were being raised for a world tour as well as the 707.

In what businesses did Maharaji become a shareholder?

Yes to all of your questions. Let me add that in la-ex’s contribution in this thread below, I disagree with the suggestion that income was “funneled through a complex set of arrangements that make it tax free or at least taxed less.” Of course, M’s tax attorneys took advantage of every legitimate tax deduction and loophole, but there was nothing illegal or particularly complex about how his taxes were calculated and paid. As I mentioned before, he was audited at least two other times after the 1977 audit and sailed through without incident.

I don’t dispute the ex-premie’s story about carrying cash across country borders in violation of currency laws so Maharaji could have cash for his personal use, although that was certainly not the norm regarding the handling and management of M’s finances. At that time, before the emergence of a truly global economy, many countries had very restrictive currency controls that made international travel almost impossible for its residents.

In one of my previous posts I mentioned that M was not able to travel to India from 1976 through 1980 because his mother and eldest brother had launched a number of bogus lawsuits against him. We eventually cleared up the mess with the help of some very capable Indian attorneys. I remember dealing with one in particular who was a prominent member of parliament, an internationally respected criminal lawyer, and quite wealthy. Yet Indian currency laws restricted him from traveling outside of India with more than a few hundred dollars, barely enough to cover one night’s hotel bill in New York. Consequently, he was delighted whenever he had an opportunity to work for international clients who were willing and able to pay him in cash pounds or dollars whenever he visited London or New Your, which is precisely what I did.

Where did Maharaji buy his dope?

I didn’t handle that aspect of his business but if I did, I’m sure it wouldn’t have been that difficult. When I was running the safe houses in Toronto before I received Knowledge, we grew our own, but that’s another story.

Michael

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Tues, Mar 20, 2001 at 17:10:53 (GMT)
From: Joe
Email: None
To: Michael Dettmers
Subject: Plane Fundraising
Message:
I don’t remember how all of that information was communicated from a fundraising perspective, but it is very possible that funds were being raised for a world tour as well as the 707.

I don't know what the motivation was, but I was told specifically, as community coordinator, and when I was in the legal department at DECA, that the 'world tour' fundraising was actually for the plane, but there was a conscious decision (I don't know from whom) not to mention the plane in the fundraising. I also remember that when we were finally given permission to tell the premies that the money actually WAS for the plane, which was when we needed cash desperately in 1980, when the plane was at least half finished, a lot of premies, especially outside Miami, didn't know about it, and still thought the money was for a 'world tour.' The way it was explained me, was that there was just a preference that attention not be brought to the plane project, for a number of reasons.

For one thing, in 1979 there had been a few really negative and extremely sarcastic stories about Maharaji in Life Magazine (on Holi Festival, 1979) and in the Miami Herald that emphasized Maharaji's extravagant lifestyle, while noting at the same time, Maharaji had hundreds of devotees in Miami Beach, living as renunciates, etc., in decrepit old, hotels. Premies were becomming a fairly obvious group in Miami Beach (and in Hialeah) at the time. The plane would have been just another thing for the media to pounce on. I remember one day the TV stations showed up at the Broadripple Hotel doing some kind of expose around this time when I was CC. I think there was a short item on the evening news, but no mention of the plane, more focusing on all the premies in Miami Beach.

By the way, the Krishnas had an ashram next to the Surfside Hotel, in yet another hotel on Miami Beach. I guess the low rents on the Beach at the time was attractive to a number of cults, not just DLM.

Also, at DECA, we really tried to keep up the pretense that DECA had nothing to do with Maharaji or Divine Light Mission. This had about as much success as the Chevy Vega, due to the 'Keystone Cops' way most things happened around that place, (I have a couple of funny stories about this) but I think the secrecy with the fundraising was associated with that. In the legal department, I saw how DECA wasn't in compliance with any of the applicable laws regarding safety, labor, various permits, etc., and due to the lack of money, not much was going to be done about that. So that was also part of the reason to keep it secret, too. I know that DECA eventually evolved into a legitimate company, I guess after the plane was finished, but that wasn't the case at the time.

That's all I can tell you. I do remember feeling a bit uneasy about the misrepresentation at the time. Also, in 1980, a premie in Miami 'defected' (don't recall the name at the moment) and was interviewed in the Miami Herald, a guy who worked in the finance department at DLM, and one of the points he mentioned was that the fundraising for the plane was misrepresented to the premies. I guess that was one of his 'drips.' Certainly, after that, there was no point in trying to hide anything.

Thanks again, Michael.

Joe

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Tues, Mar 20, 2001 at 17:20:49 (GMT)
From: Joe
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: Cult Businesses
Message:
If Maharaji had an iterest, for example, in Prem Mark, I assume he made lots of money when it was sold. I think I heard on the Forum that it was sold.

One thing that has really bothered me about some of the businesses in DLM is that I believe that some premies (and of course Maharaji) became rich off the backs of essentially slave labor. [I know you have explained the situation with the aviation company, and I not suggesting that was the case there.]

One example for me were the Rainbow Grocery stores in Chicago. When I was in Chicago, part of the time I was on the Board of Rainbow Grocery, Inc., a non-profit, Illinois cooperative, and helped get financing for building a second store. One store was already operating on the near-north side, and we opened another one on the far-north side, near where the ashrams were, in Rogers Park.

Anyhow, nobody really put any money into these stores, they just reinvested the earnings to expand, the store having started out with nothing, just a cheap lease and free premie labor.

Part of the reason they were successful, is that a large number of ashram premies worked at the stores, and considered it 'service.' They were paid amazingly low wages, I think even below minimum wage, with no benefits whatsoever, and were subsidized by those of us in the ashrams (like me) who held regular jobs. As ashram housefather in Chicago, it was always a terrible stretch to get all the premies to festivals, for example, because the ever-increasing number of premies working for Rainbow brought in very little income.

It got to the point by 1978, that Maharaji said the stores shouldn't close during festivals, and I remember that the ashram premies, in connection with the Kissimmee festivals, for example, went to the festival in 'shifts,' each attending part of the festival only. Also, ashram premies started being sent to Chicago from other places to work in the stores. I remember one or two came from the Denver store, for example.

And it wasn't only ashram premies either. There were community premies who worked in those stores for practically nothing at least partly because they considered it 'service.'

Anyhow, the stores became quite successful, and, eventually, this expanded into a distribution company, and at least a thrid sore, and was in some ways tied into Prem Mark, but I don't think ever became legally a part of Prem Mark, although the new store was called 'Prem Mark,' as opposed to Rainbow. I left Chicago in 1979, so I don't know all the details.

Eventually, I think the structure changed to a corporation and the stores and the distribution company were sold for millions, and the people in charge, who I guess were the shareholders, and mabye Maharaji was a shareholder too, by this time, became quite rich. However, it seems to me this was partly acheived through cheap, premie labor, through people who thought they were serving the living God. Also, it was brought about by those of us who subsidized those people, who wouldn't have otherwise been able to survive. Of course, all those people, including me, got nothing from the deal.

In retrospect, it is unlikely those stores would have ever made it, were it not for the extremely low labor costs, essentially free 'sweat investment' those stores got for many years.

There are ex-premies who post on this forum who could tell you more about all this.

There is something that stinks about all this, and one of the things I would like to see is more information disclosed about how all that happened.


Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Tues, Mar 20, 2001 at 17:44:55 (GMT)
From: Richard
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: Joe - about the sale and of AMP and who benefited
Message:
Joe, I posted this above in Guy's thread. If you missed it here is some info on AMP's sale a couple of years back to B.E. Aerospace in Florida. This is second hand from people there but widely known about.

AMP was sold to B.E. Aerospace for something like $165 million. In order to keep AMP alive, key people were offered 'shares' in the business in exchange for low pay and long hours. When the sale happened, apparently each of the key employees and investors, including M, received several $million each - $7 mill is what I heard the key people got for their shares. M and the other 'investors' maybe got more or less. The CEO of AMP received around $65 million. Naturally there were some hard feelings among non-shareholders and guilt among the new millionaires. There is one lawsuit between two of the key people. During that trial there was perjury by one of the key employees to protect the defendant. When asked if AMP was in any way connected to Élan Vital, this long time and active PWK said he had never heard of EV. Don't know if this was ever settled.

Again, this is confirmed by several current premies in Miami. If I have posted inaccurate information, please corect this.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Tues, Mar 20, 2001 at 21:23:54 (GMT)
From: Joe
Email: None
To: Richard
Subject: Wow
Message:
Do you know if Maharaji was sued? Was that the 'defendant' that the person committing perjury was trying to protect? There was a trial? The transcript of that should be available.

I would think the records of the case would be public information. Do you know where the suit was filed? Miami? Do you know when the lawsuit started?

I don't know now how all that worked. First it was IMMCO and then DECA, and they were owned by some strange corporate structure, and I don't know who owned the shares.

Then DECA was sold to AMP, is that right? I assume DECA was bankrupt and AMP just bougt the assets and got the employees. Who owned DECA? Who owned AMP? Who decided who the 'key people' were and who got shares? I guess that was all part of the lawsuit.

Thanks.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Tues, Mar 20, 2001 at 21:58:52 (GMT)
From: Richard
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: M was not the defendant
Message:
One of the key people sued another key person over who got what.

The case was brought in Miami about 1998 - 99, I think. The way I heard this is the perjury was to protect EV / M but was used as a trick by the prosecution to get the person to lie under oath so he/she would be discredited. If they lied about EV then the rest of their testimony was invalid a la Mark Furman in OJ trial.

The management knew AMP could not exist without the key people who were heads of various departments. The names are well known amongst Miami premies. So they were kept on board via 'shares' in the company. These could have been just paper but, like some of the tech IPO millionaires, it paid off for them. Frankly, I'm glad somebody benefited after all those years of dedication but it would have been better if everyone benefited some.

I think I heard there was a non-PWK silent partner who was eventually bought out before the sale to BEA.

I don't know how DECA became AMP.

Again, all of this is common knowledge in the DECA / AMP Miami community.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Tues, Mar 20, 2001 at 04:31:22 (GMT)
From: la-ex
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: Joe- Deltek, amtext...
Message:
Joe-

I believe M is involved with Deltek (probably gets a share of profits)in some way, and I think he stays in Don Delaskis mansion outside DC when he goes there...
I believe most of their money was made from Defense Department contracts..

Aa far as Amtext-he owns it completely.
Chuck Nathan originally owned it, but formally signed it over to M a few years ago.
The money generated by amtext goes into a fund for M that can be used by him for either personal or touring purposes.
Chuck explained that it is funneled through a complex set of arrangements that make it tax free or at least taxed less(he said it was a loophole type of rider that was passed by Congress to give rich people a tax loophole and way to keep their money more hidden).
I think the net total M takes in is about 2-3 million/yr from Amtext in the US, but there are also amtext operations in Europe...

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Tues, Mar 20, 2001 at 02:24:03 (GMT)
From: Guy
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: More on the 707/Questions for the Mikes and Guy
Message:
I don't have anything to add. I was never involved in fundraising.

I did live at some pretty crummy digs....until I went high society and moved in with Katie and John. But that's another story.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Tues, Mar 20, 2001 at 00:46:24 (GMT)
From: donner
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: More on the 707/Questions for the Mikes and Guy
Message:
joe...commenting briefly on the main point above...main point for me at least, re m's lack of care for the premies. most definetly he had little regard from start to finish. imagine any project, festival, situation where he and premies intersected...take a festival...of course he would want to cut back on the budget in areas tht applied to premie comforts, conveniences, even simple normal procedures....while at the same time his back stages became more and more elaborate, his off site residence larger and more elaborate...ie australia....or anywher for that matter. ashrams come and go for his convenience only...remember DUO or unity school...examples of things created for his convenience or that of his family (really his own, often to keep his kids and wife happy so he could do whatever).

dettmers will comment probably on the money thing...250K in a darshan line in austrailia...that was about 1 and 1/2 fast cars...maybe two tanks of fuel in the 707...another great convenient toy for him and his desire to fly and pilot...to be the youngest 707 certified pilot...and broadripple for the rest of us. (yes, me too for most of the time)
\ the list is endless.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Tues, Mar 20, 2001 at 00:59:38 (GMT)
From: Joe
Email: None
To: donner
Subject: The Broadripple, Oy Vey
Message:
And the Algiers, and the Surfside. Those old, sad hotels on Miami Beach were we lived. Really something. God, I HATED living in Miami then. I can remember looking at the jets flying over and wishing I was on one of them. It was such a zoo.

Michael, what 'officially' was your job during those years? Were you on the OGM staff? The residence staff?

Did you know Linda Smith at OGM? I knew Linda pretty well from Chicago and from IG=HQ, and she told me a lot of the same things Michael Dettmers has said here about Maharaji's alcoholism and sexual misconduct.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Mon, Mar 19, 2001 at 16:45:33 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: Premie as Fight Club (from ELK)
Message:
Look how these guys ahve taken to beating themselves up recently? Okay, it's nothing really new but I do think I see this happening more and more. Wonder why, huh?:

My permanent address

Sincerity and truth
are my favorite values.
A long time ago I realized,
it's not worthwhile,
to live with any kind of lies.
It takes too much energy
and consumes
too much precious time.
Could I be so stupid
as to sully
the pillar of my breath
on which I've lived
so happily until now?
Could I be so stupid
as to close the door
to Knowledge, the door
to my own sweet heart?
Why? Why should I,
if sooner or later
my heart will be
my permanent address?

Stojan Svet
Postojna, Slovenia

and:

That is the truth

Is it the relating, berating, and debating or the
mending, bending, and blending; or, is it the pure
life energy within the breath?
Is it the acquiring, desiring, and siring or the
lending, sending, and spending; or, is it the pure
life energy within the breath?
Is it the condemning, transcending, and pretending
or the taking, making and breaking; or, is it the
pure life energy within the breath?
Is it the deceiving, misleading, and believing or
the righting, fighting and smiting; or, is it the
pure life energy within the breath?
Is it the taming, blaming, and shaming or the
leaving, bereaving, and bequeathing; or, is it the
pure life energy within the breath?
Is it the boarding, hoarding, and lording or the
designing, out-shining, and conniving; or, is it
the pure life energy within the breath?
Is it the parading, narrating, and congratulating
or the composing, transposing, and supposing; or,
is it the pure life energy within the breath?

Without the master: Breathe the pure invisible
infinite energy of life.

With the master: Feel and taste, the vision and
sound, of the pure infinite energy of life, as it
tickles the heart with joy.

Jim Sakshaug
Marblemount, USA


Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Tues, Mar 20, 2001 at 12:00:08 (GMT)
From: Larkin
Email: larkin@redcrow.demon.co.uk
To: Jim
Subject: Yes that IS the truth!
Message:
Yes, THAT is the truth

Yes, it is the berating, slating, premie-baiting
the never-ending spending, spending
and the rare old spirit on His breath
Yes, it IS the acquiring, desiring, and siring
the condemning, condescending and pretending
and a fine oaked vintage on the breath
Yes it IS the deceiving, misleading, and believing
the righting, slighting and smiting
and the one too many on the breath
Yes, it IS the taming, blaming, and shaming
our leaving, bereaving, and bequeathing
for the twelve-year-old cognac on His breath
Yes it IS the boarding, hoarding, and lording
the designing, conniving and contriving
an illusory kingdom of the breath
Yes it IS the parading, narrating, self-congratulating
the posing, disposing and double-dosing
to claim from fools their every breath
Without the master: Breathe the pure invisible
oxygen of life.
With the master: Feel and taste the tunnel-vision,
the scale of his self-obsession as he strokes His vanity,
picks your pocket and laughs.
Larkin
Moominvalley, UK

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Mon, Mar 19, 2001 at 22:49:29 (GMT)
From: TD
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: His rhyming dictionary got a good workout (nt)
Message:
nt
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Mon, Mar 19, 2001 at 20:32:24 (GMT)
From: Jerry
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Premie as Fight Club (from ELK)
Message:
This reminds me of the part in the musical Camelot where the brave knights promise to bash and smash, dash and crash, thrash and mash their opponents in the upcoming joust. Inspiration for Mr. Sakshaug, perhaps?
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Mon, Mar 19, 2001 at 18:06:58 (GMT)
From: bill
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: The word 'it' says it all...nt
Message:
dfjd
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Mon, Mar 19, 2001 at 16:45:01 (GMT)
From: Susan
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: a respost from Erika and my response
Message:
I think a lot of what I was reacting to in your earlier post was the sense you portrayed of COLL as being this gestapo-like environment, when my memories were so different. I remember Marc Lerner's beautiful Passover seder, and strolling on the River Walk at dusk to go to the disco place, and eating dinner with Steve Droullard and the boys at Mi Tierra and all agreeing not to investigate the refritos too closely. I remember Pat Murphy's endearing, quirky way of dancing, at our post-satsang shindigs, and that odd German guy who did night security...I used to wander down late at night and practice my bad German on him. I remember arguing endlessly with Steve Droullard that the business model for the car wash was stupid, because our prices were so low that our profit margins sucked. And Pat's flute business in the back of the car wash. I remember the heated debates between the macrobiotics and the junk food junkies, and how amazing it was when Burke and Gail Frank's baby was born. I remember my room mate Nina and her little boy Skye. I also remember going down to meditate in the morning, in that cool, dim hall. And the strains of Arti on somebody's guitar (I'm still fond of the tune, though the words are bizarre). I remember being 23 years old, and thinking I had all the answers. Given that we were all so young and self-righteous, it's astonshing that it worked on any level. I had a great time, for the most part, and loved being there.

I'm doing my best to listen to the real issues here that are most toubling to me -- about M's faling to take responsibility for many mistakes and changes that have happened, and about his problem drinking and sexual irresponsibility. I'm also trying to take in as valid people's pain around these and other issues.

It gets frustrating when people refuse to accept as valid the pleasure and fun and joy I've experienced all through this journey -- both internally and with other people, including M -- and discount it as 'cult' behavior, brainwashing, etc.

Erika, I want to address one spect of what you are saying here, good memories and real experiences. I think you are saying that your perception is that ex premies are saying none of your memories or experiences for the last 20 odd years are valid. Like all of those years 'don't count' and you didn't learn a thing.

I just want to let you know that isn't how I feel. Maybe others can chime in. I met wonderful people, and learned a lot of life lessons, I also believe I was in a cult. I am sure Moonies and Krishnas also have friendships, good experiences, and life lessons, I still think they are in a cult and subject to 'mind control'.

You mentioned a lot of specific memories from COLL ( never was there myself) but I have many similar fond memories. There were some wonderful moments. And most of those moments, frankly, were sort of stolen moments!In that my treasured memories are almost exclusively of doing things that were sort of 'cheating' on the dictates of satsang service and meditation. Recently, I got together with an old friend from those days, she and I were teen premies together, in moments of boredom, we used to pass notes in satsang, we had little code names for all the premies, and we thought that way if we dropped it no one would decipher our code. We have all sorts of silly memories we share, and they are very real. I also celibrated my 16 or 17th( can't remember that detail) birthday as an ashram premie, and my fellow ashram premies had a 17th birthday
party for me. It was really sweet, and I think not exactly along the guru is all line we were living by then, and I remember that fondly too.

I suppose I hear you saying, that if you rethink whether you were in a cult, and Rawat is a cult leader, that you will have to reject everything in your life for the past 20+ years as being a lie. And, I think it is devastating to accept one has been in a cult. And you do have to reasssess a lot of your experiences in light of it. It IS very heavy and intense. But I still have many cherished memories, and wonderful moments, as I am sure most here do. And thank God we do, or it would be an even sadder waste than it was.


Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Tues, Mar 20, 2001 at 17:11:43 (GMT)
From: Abi
Email: None
To: Susan
Subject: well said!
Message:
nt
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Mon, Mar 19, 2001 at 17:28:38 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Susan
Subject: Excellent point -- compliments Joe's, in fact
Message:
You are so right, Susan. Our fond memories are all of the stuff outside the edges, the stuff that we only enjoyed because, in spite of the guru's agya and our earnest efforts, we just couldn't eradicate our egos. Remember Maharaji's story of the good premie being the one who looks in the mirror one day, sees nothing but white hair and has no idea where the time went? He also spoke of the 'real' devotee being the one whose life was completely spent on service like a burnt match. Fortunately, the human spirit's a bit more resiliant than that.

And this goes with Joe's point, too, about the greater harm Maharaji perpetrated which might not, at any one time, have hurt us individually. It's like hanging out with a mob boss. Where do you draw the line? You can watch him murder someone but so long as none of the blood splashes on your shoes or clothes, it's not your problem? Yes, yes, it's a sensational analogy. But the point's there.

Jim

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Mon, Mar 19, 2001 at 16:37:38 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: Premie as Basket Case (from ELK)
Message:
'Riding the waves

This worldly ocean is an element
for which I am totally unequipped.
I am a creature that cannot breath water
and my fragile body is easily broken
by its brutal force.
There are things lurking beneath its surface
that would eat me alive.
If I am to survive here
I must ride its waves
on the board of this breath,
with the perfect balance
Knowledge and my master bring me,
nothing to hold onto
but the feeling of my heart,
moving with the most amazing grace.

Carole Jones
Ithaca, NY, USA'

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Mon, Mar 19, 2001 at 20:53:52 (GMT)
From: Jerry
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: The crest of a wave
Message:
This worldly ocean is an element
for which I am totally unequipped.

Evolution begs to differ, Carole. If we were as unequipped as you say, as a species we'd all be extinct by now.

You know, Jim, maybe there is something funny in this stuff, but I see more sad than funny. These poems are really just cries of people who feel beaten by life and have turned to a refuge that really isn't there.

On the crest of a wave,
I ride ready to be smashed
into a million bits.
What hope is there for this mortal frame
against this rushing, mindless force
I am powerless against?
There is no hope for me
I am done.
But alas! I have breath!
And for these few moments
before my doom
I focus.
One breath in, one breath out.
And then?

See, I can write premie poetry too. It doesn't take much, just a remembrance of how single minded and focused I once was on what I though was my only hope, M & K. And if you ask me, there's nothing funny about that. It's pathetic.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Mon, Mar 19, 2001 at 22:24:25 (GMT)
From: TD
Email: None
To: Jerry
Subject: Why do premies ALL turn into bad poets? (nt)
Message:
nt
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Tues, Mar 20, 2001 at 12:36:24 (GMT)
From: Jerry
Email: None
To: TD
Subject: Because they're disingenuous (nt)
Message:
nt
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Tues, Mar 20, 2001 at 04:06:04 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: TD
Subject: Because they have no standards
Message:
Imagine how hard it is for a premie poet to get a little constructive criticism. About all they can do is try to rip off Kabir, Gibran or Rumi, inserting today's EV jargon as need be. They're unable to use the writing process for real dsicovery or expression, that's too dangerous, so all they can do is parrot cult cliches and hope that their drivel is at least as good as Maharaji's own which, you know, sucks the big one.
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Wed, Mar 21, 2001 at 04:23:23 (GMT)
From: Nigel
Email: nigel@redcrow.demon.co.uk
To: Jim
Subject: Because they've forgotten how to feel...
Message:
...about themselves or about others around them.

You're right up to a point Jim, vis-a-vis no benchmark for critical appraisal. But I still work freelance at this drug rehab where the recovering junkies write reams of crap poetry as therapy and put it up on the walls, and when you read it gets to you. Similarly no concept of 'good' or 'bad' poetry, but true and painful accounts of mostly shitty (and also good) life experiences told honestly. No buzzwords, no pretence. Someone said pain is the best educator, and if that's true, then these pewk poets are either denying what they know or haven't started their education.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Wed, Mar 21, 2001 at 19:25:00 (GMT)
From: Cynthia
Email: None
To: Pat
Subject: Hi Pat, I used to write volumns of this stuff...
Message:
When I read some of the poems a few months ago I got sick, not because of the triteness of it, but because I wrote it to goomraji! I was also embarrassed to myself because they were so samey.

Writing isn't easy. I work on it every day. Now, poems, etc. are works in progress, always open for revision, paring away all the extra words that don't belong.

There was a phase when I wrote gut-wrenching poetry--when I was going through the most difficult part of my emotional journey away from my family of origin. Now I wince when I read them, yet, some are quite good. I call that phase of my writing 'these poems ain't pretty.' And leave it at that.

Hope you're having a good day,
Love,
Cynthia

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Thurs, Mar 22, 2001 at 02:18:28 (GMT)
From: Pat Conlon
Email: None
To: Cynthia
Subject: Hi Cynthia, did you keep you devotional poems or
Message:
burn them? Come, on be a sport and let's see them. Babs posted some of her embarassing gopi journal stuff.
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Tues, Mar 20, 2001 at 16:46:07 (GMT)
From: Scott
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Because they have no standards
Message:
I agree. Most 'inspirational' poetry and music is pretty nauseating. A vacu-formed approach that sounds like it was spit out from a piece of cheap software- good kindling and frisbee material. Light....bright...sweet.....feet...holy-moly....face..grace....and some synth, an acoustic geetar and maybe a harp,ya, lets use it on a video. Where you skid off the road with your point is using the broad brush that premies et al have no standards re: art, music, literature etc. You weaken your assertion by branding everone who practices knowledge with the iron of cultural bankruptcy. Now that Morton Downey is dead maybe there's a second career for you. S.C.
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Tues, Mar 20, 2001 at 10:12:20 (GMT)
From: Pat Conlon
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Because they have no standards, Jim
Message:
After listening to Erika talk about Rev Rawat's ''evolution'' (PWK code word for educated westerners waiting for their less than highly evolved Master to improve) I wondered why they could be bothered to call their obviously intellectual inferior their Master.

I also wonder if they deliberately dumb themselves down because they know they are better than their master and do not wish to upstage him. It must be a real dilemma for anyone with a more than high-school degree.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Tues, Mar 20, 2001 at 17:09:22 (GMT)
From: Scott
Email: None
To: Pat Conlon
Subject: Because they have no standards, Jim
Message:
P.C.you may not like his art work, music or poetry,but calling M. stupid/intellectually inferior directly contradicts your highly credible resource, Mr. Dettmers. MVD has had first hand opportunities to witness the manifestation of his grey matter, and from what I've read in Micheals earlier posts, he's no slouch. So stick to what's valid and you're likely to be taken more seriosly.
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Wed, Mar 21, 2001 at 08:13:15 (GMT)
From: Pat Conlon
Email: None
To: Scott
Subject: Dettmers thinks Rawat is no slouch, Scott?
Message:
Switching drivers after a vehicular manslaughter indicates his intellectual superiority?
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Tues, Mar 20, 2001 at 19:25:26 (GMT)
From: Pat Conlon
Email: None
To: Scott
Subject: Sorry Scott - another cheap shot. How's Erika?
Message:
A lot of what I post is banter and not meant to be taken seriously. It really is so tempting to criticize premies and Rev Rawat but I know it doen't do any good in the long run. De gustibus non est disputandum. I don't want to get off on the wrong foot with you before I've gotten to know you. Shake?
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Tues, Mar 20, 2001 at 20:12:27 (GMT)
From: ScottC.
Email: None
To: Pat Conlon
Subject: Sorry Scott - another cheap shot. How's Erika?
Message:
Fair nuff. Cynthia Fitzpatrick says Hi.
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Tues, Mar 20, 2001 at 20:30:13 (GMT)
From: Pat Conlon
Email: pdconlon@yahoo.com
To: ScottC.
Subject: Scott, give my love to Cynthia
Message:
please ask her to email me sometime. Danielle (also Fitzpatrick, the instructor) and I were just talking about her the other day.
Return to Index -:- Top of Index