Forum V: Archive
Compiled: Sun, Mar 25, 2001 at 10:51:45 (GMT)
From: Mar 18, 2001 To: Mar 24, 2001 Page: 5 Of: 5


Joe -:- The Personal v. the Big Picture -:- Mon, Mar 19, 2001 at 06:07:58 (GMT)
__ Katie H. -:- Thanks, Joe - and it's true for all of us -:- Tues, Mar 20, 2001 at 18:19:44 (GMT)
__ donner -:- The Personal v. the Big Picture -:- Tues, Mar 20, 2001 at 00:32:43 (GMT)
__ Chuck Sprague -:- The importance of the Big Picture... -:- Mon, Mar 19, 2001 at 20:30:51 (GMT)
__ __ Kelly -:- The Big Picture...I heartily concur. nt -:- Mon, Mar 19, 2001 at 22:58:41 (GMT)
__ Francesca -:- Yes, brother Joe, I testify! -:- Mon, Mar 19, 2001 at 18:27:55 (GMT)
__ __ Francesca -:- Forgot to mention that it was not 'cruel shoes' -:- Mon, Mar 19, 2001 at 20:40:47 (GMT)
__ __ Joe -:- The worst part -:- Mon, Mar 19, 2001 at 18:41:37 (GMT)
__ __ __ Joe -:- Sorry Franny, that was to you not Erika, -:- Mon, Mar 19, 2001 at 18:44:29 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Francesca -:- Sorry Franny, that was to you not Erika, -:- Mon, Mar 19, 2001 at 20:44:02 (GMT)
__ Susan -:- great post -:- Mon, Mar 19, 2001 at 16:57:49 (GMT)
__ Jerry -:- The Personal v. the Big Picture -:- Mon, Mar 19, 2001 at 11:59:43 (GMT)
__ AJW -:- The Personal v. Sanity -:- Mon, Mar 19, 2001 at 10:33:43 (GMT)
__ Dermot -:- Blocks to premie Realization -:- Mon, Mar 19, 2001 at 09:01:40 (GMT)
__ __ Joe -:- Blocks to premie Realization -:- Mon, Mar 19, 2001 at 17:54:33 (GMT)
__ __ __ Katie Darling -:- Hey Joe -:- Mon, Mar 19, 2001 at 18:09:19 (GMT)
__ Connie -:- Excellent as usual Joe -:- Mon, Mar 19, 2001 at 06:57:30 (GMT)
__ __ Francesca -:- You've stated one of Erika's key conflicts ... -:- Mon, Mar 19, 2001 at 22:17:01 (GMT)
__ __ __ Connie -:- Yep, the good part -:- Tues, Mar 20, 2001 at 00:29:21 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Francesca -:- Supporting each other -:- Tues, Mar 20, 2001 at 00:55:10 (GMT)
__ __ Joe -:- Well said, Connie -:- Mon, Mar 19, 2001 at 19:18:05 (GMT)
__ TD -:- Brilliant Joe - that totally sums it up....!! -:- Mon, Mar 19, 2001 at 06:46:14 (GMT)
__ __ Marianne -:- Agree wholeheartedly -:- Mon, Mar 19, 2001 at 11:03:07 (GMT)
__ __ __ Pat Conlon -:- I hope she does sort it out -:- Mon, Mar 19, 2001 at 11:20:13 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Katie Darling -:- I hope she does sort it out -:- Mon, Mar 19, 2001 at 11:38:05 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Brian -:- Looking at what's leftover afterwards -:- Mon, Mar 19, 2001 at 15:21:25 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ bill--good to see -:- you posting more Brian....nt -:- Tues, Mar 20, 2001 at 23:48:47 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Francesca -:- Just read this again, GREAT POST***** n/t -:- Tues, Mar 20, 2001 at 04:58:38 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Monmot -:- The Human Face on the Mechanism of Denial -:- Mon, Mar 19, 2001 at 22:14:53 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Chuck Sprague -:- Great posts, Monmot and Brian (nt) -:- Tues, Mar 20, 2001 at 01:55:47 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Francesca -:- Paradigm shift -:- Tues, Mar 20, 2001 at 00:05:13 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Monmot -:- You Betcha -:- Tues, Mar 20, 2001 at 02:15:48 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Francesca -:- Here's to dark hallways!! LOLs n/t -:- Tues, Mar 20, 2001 at 05:04:18 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Joe -:- Wow, awesome post... -:- Mon, Mar 19, 2001 at 22:26:39 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Richard -:- Brian, Monmot, Joe - I am doing that now -:- Mon, Mar 19, 2001 at 23:28:17 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Monmot -:- It ain't easy, but you're doing it.... -:- Tues, Mar 20, 2001 at 02:25:37 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Richard -:- You're totally Monmot... and we love it!! /nt -:- Tues, Mar 20, 2001 at 02:33:43 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Joe -:- Brian, Monmot, Joe - I am doing that now -:- Mon, Mar 19, 2001 at 23:54:02 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Pat Conlon -:- I'm peeling onions and having some good cries -:- Tues, Mar 20, 2001 at 01:06:07 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Monmot -:- Here's a vitual hanky... -:- Tues, Mar 20, 2001 at 02:30:13 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Pat Conlon -:- Here's a vitual hanky...If that typo were vital... -:- Tues, Mar 20, 2001 at 02:40:18 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Francesca -:- Just what you always wanted.. brilliant! -:- Tues, Mar 20, 2001 at 05:09:29 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Pat Conlon -:- I always new we were twins separated at birth NT -:- Tues, Mar 20, 2001 at 08:45:56 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Katie Darling -:- Brian, that's brilliant! nt -:- Mon, Mar 19, 2001 at 18:07:19 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Richard -:- I agree Brian brilliant re: self-protection /nt -:- Mon, Mar 19, 2001 at 21:51:37 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Test -:- Test -:- Wed, Mar 21, 2001 at 04:10:59 (GMT)

janet -:- speech to mail to all premie organs of reading -:- Mon, Mar 19, 2001 at 04:12:44 (GMT)
__ janet -:- i just got here. read my letter to richard: -:- Tues, Mar 20, 2001 at 08:03:03 (GMT)
__ __ Katie H. -:- Janet, thanks for this -:- Tues, Mar 20, 2001 at 18:36:26 (GMT)
__ __ __ Richard -:- thanks Katie H nt -:- Tues, Mar 20, 2001 at 19:01:47 (GMT)
__ __ Richard -:- OK, OK here's a pic of us kissing to make up -:- Tues, Mar 20, 2001 at 16:12:12 (GMT)
__ __ Pat Conlon -:- Honest and heartfelt once again, Janet -:- Tues, Mar 20, 2001 at 08:44:19 (GMT)
__ JHB -:- Janet, In view of Richard's feelings... -:- Mon, Mar 19, 2001 at 08:40:04 (GMT)
__ __ AJW -:- All great artists steal -:- Mon, Mar 19, 2001 at 11:35:26 (GMT)
__ __ __ JohnT -:- All great artists steal - and JohnT too! -:- Mon, Mar 19, 2001 at 14:58:28 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ bill--Maybe John T, -:- but they are worth the time.....nt -:- Tues, Mar 20, 2001 at 23:45:52 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Richard -:- Oh hell, it was only the Sistine Chapel Ceiling -:- Mon, Mar 19, 2001 at 17:15:34 (GMT)
__ Richard -:- FA - could you please delete this thread? -:- Mon, Mar 19, 2001 at 05:44:57 (GMT)
__ __ Dermot -:- FA - could you please delete MY thread? -:- Mon, Mar 19, 2001 at 13:25:39 (GMT)
__ __ Sir Dave -:- Well the original's here -:- Mon, Mar 19, 2001 at 11:45:26 (GMT)
__ __ Forum Adminstrator -:- FA - could you please delete this thread? -:- Mon, Mar 19, 2001 at 06:29:46 (GMT)
__ __ Pat Conlon -:- FA - I'll second that. Janet meant well but -:- Mon, Mar 19, 2001 at 05:57:11 (GMT)
__ __ __ Barry -:- Hey you Irish bastard!(nt) -:- Mon, Mar 19, 2001 at 06:00:18 (GMT)

G -:- 'synchronization' -:- Mon, Mar 19, 2001 at 03:29:48 (GMT)
__ Brian -:- 'operating in unison' -:- Mon, Mar 19, 2001 at 15:49:29 (GMT)
__ Sir Dave -:- 'synchronization' - Pidgin English more like -:- Mon, Mar 19, 2001 at 11:59:30 (GMT)
__ __ Richard -:- Knowledge in London = cabbie education -:- Tues, Mar 20, 2001 at 04:36:42 (GMT)
__ AJW -:- 'synchronization' -:- Mon, Mar 19, 2001 at 11:55:05 (GMT)
__ SB -:- And -:- Mon, Mar 19, 2001 at 11:19:44 (GMT)
__ Pat Conlon -:- Why has no one posted a response to this? -:- Mon, Mar 19, 2001 at 11:00:19 (GMT)

anon -:- Portland event update news 5pm: -:- Mon, Mar 19, 2001 at 03:03:15 (GMT)
__ Richard -:- Just got my Portland event invitation in the mail -:- Mon, Mar 19, 2001 at 23:14:05 (GMT)
__ __ Francesca -:- Me too! LOL -:- Tues, Mar 20, 2001 at 00:13:05 (GMT)
__ __ __ la-ex -:- Me three!LOL, but was that intentional or not?nt -:- Tues, Mar 20, 2001 at 01:26:16 (GMT)
__ __ such -:- u 2?! such blissful synchronization! (mt -:- Mon, Mar 19, 2001 at 23:18:19 (GMT)
__ __ __ Pat and Chuck -:- us too - NT -:- Tues, Mar 20, 2001 at 00:56:06 (GMT)
__ an old friend -:- Went last night -:- Mon, Mar 19, 2001 at 20:25:03 (GMT)
__ __ Richard -:- Went last night - thanks 'old friend' /nt -:- Mon, Mar 19, 2001 at 21:01:20 (GMT)
__ __ Pat Conlon -:- More ''evolution'' -:- Mon, Mar 19, 2001 at 20:35:21 (GMT)
__ __ __ Chuck Sprague -:- It gives me the creeps... -:- Mon, Mar 19, 2001 at 23:12:22 (GMT)
__ __ __ old friend -:- More ''evolution'' -:- Mon, Mar 19, 2001 at 22:06:57 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ suchabanana -:- Guess our satsang has inspired da Karma Chameleon! -:- Mon, Mar 19, 2001 at 23:14:44 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ old friend -:- Is this old or an original verse?More about event -:- Tues, Mar 20, 2001 at 07:40:29 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Katie H -:- Oops, busted! -:- Tues, Mar 20, 2001 at 23:25:35 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Pat Conlon -:- Thanks, old friend, for another excellent report -:- Tues, Mar 20, 2001 at 08:30:03 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Francesca -:- Touche! The Rod McKuen of gurus!!!! -:- Tues, Mar 20, 2001 at 05:28:41 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Pat formerly Thelma -:- Mahatma Such Ji - you are such a banana - split -:- Mon, Mar 19, 2001 at 23:29:49 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Francesca -:- Oh no, I thought the same thing tonight -:- Tues, Mar 20, 2001 at 05:31:18 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Pat Conlon -:- We're so damned synchronized, Francesca NT -:- Tues, Mar 20, 2001 at 08:34:08 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ SuchaBanana -:- i m just a simple koan-head:Koanan the Bananagram! -:- Tues, Mar 20, 2001 at 00:35:58 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Katie Darling -:- More ''evolution'' -:- Mon, Mar 19, 2001 at 22:22:59 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ old friend -:- More ''evolution'' -:- Mon, Mar 19, 2001 at 22:33:16 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Katie H. -:- Katie Haering and Katie Darling -:- Tues, Mar 20, 2001 at 19:41:08 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Pat Conlon -:- More ''evolution'' - Bhakti Juju! THIS IS SCARY!!! -:- Mon, Mar 19, 2001 at 22:19:43 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ olf friend again -:- Yeah it felt a bit scary going there -:- Mon, Mar 19, 2001 at 22:44:31 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Francesca -:- I know I could not be a mole because ... -:- Tues, Mar 20, 2001 at 05:51:49 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Pat Conlon -:- Is this synchronization or synchronicity, Fran? -:- Tues, Mar 20, 2001 at 08:36:55 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Francesca -:- It's the cheese! -:- Tues, Mar 20, 2001 at 14:35:10 (GMT)
__ Katie H. -:- great writing - very atmospheric! -:- Mon, Mar 19, 2001 at 04:01:23 (GMT)
__ donner -:- Portland event -:- Mon, Mar 19, 2001 at 03:51:42 (GMT)
__ __ anon -:- attendance tonight:Not bang,but whimper...+have Qs -:- Mon, Mar 19, 2001 at 05:50:47 (GMT)
__ __ __ Marianne -:- Did eDrek go inside? -:- Mon, Mar 19, 2001 at 19:08:05 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Pauline Premie -:- Did eDrek go inside? -:- Mon, Mar 19, 2001 at 20:06:56 (GMT)
__ Pat Conlon -:- and now back to the Jim in the newsroom at EPO -:- Mon, Mar 19, 2001 at 03:09:13 (GMT)
__ __ Cw -:- Sure smells like Heller..... -:- Mon, Mar 19, 2001 at 08:13:20 (GMT)
__ __ __ Jim -:- Cat's like the Monty Python 'Holy Grail' knight -:- Mon, Mar 19, 2001 at 15:41:50 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Nigel -:- 'Tis merely a flesh wound...' -:- Mon, Mar 19, 2001 at 18:16:43 (GMT)
__ __ __ AJW -:- Panic Stations. -:- Mon, Mar 19, 2001 at 11:02:20 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ CW -:- A Fool sees what he believes -:- Mon, Mar 19, 2001 at 13:44:37 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ AJW -:- I agree with you Cat. -:- Mon, Mar 19, 2001 at 17:27:05 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Marianne -:- So true, Cat. An epiphany? nt -:- Mon, Mar 19, 2001 at 13:53:22 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ CW -:- So true, Cat. An epiphany? nt -:- Mon, Mar 19, 2001 at 13:57:20 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ JohnT -:- Cat lies like a cheap rug ... -:- Mon, Mar 19, 2001 at 14:18:11 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Pat Conlon -:- Panic Stations. The real Millennium -:- Mon, Mar 19, 2001 at 11:25:01 (GMT)

Patrick (formerly Anon) -:- My turn for 'then and now' I suppose. -:- Mon, Mar 19, 2001 at 01:48:08 (GMT)
__ Bin Liner -:- Why did you have a hole in your -:- Mon, Mar 19, 2001 at 03:08:58 (GMT)
__ __ Pat Conlon -:- California shirtlifter? -:- Mon, Mar 19, 2001 at 03:11:05 (GMT)
__ la-ex -:- Then=Donovan.Now=Phil Collins. Pretty Wife nt -:- Mon, Mar 19, 2001 at 02:04:12 (GMT)
__ __ Jim -:- Wife nothing. Does your mom still look like that? -:- Mon, Mar 19, 2001 at 02:24:56 (GMT)
__ __ __ bill -:- anon, -:- Mon, Mar 19, 2001 at 04:55:11 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ bill -:- 'could' not 'cold'.....nt -:- Mon, Mar 19, 2001 at 04:56:12 (GMT)
__ __ moldy warp -:- Donovan - just wot I was going to say nt -:- Mon, Mar 19, 2001 at 02:15:29 (GMT)
__ Richard -:- Outrageous site Patrick/anon -:- Mon, Mar 19, 2001 at 02:04:06 (GMT)
__ Pat Conlon -:- If you had a pic of you in a second hand suit and -:- Mon, Mar 19, 2001 at 01:51:52 (GMT)
__ __ Patrick Wilson -:- that generated some hits! -:- Tues, Mar 20, 2001 at 03:21:29 (GMT)
__ __ __ bill--Those are high hit -:- #'s your right. Wonder if m is one of them!..nt -:- Tues, Mar 20, 2001 at 23:40:18 (GMT)
__ __ __ Richard -:- website hits = mine went way up too -:- Tues, Mar 20, 2001 at 04:08:12 (GMT)

Jim -:- Pick one -:- Mon, Mar 19, 2001 at 00:06:59 (GMT)
__ Thelma -:- Neither Tweedledum nor Tweedledee -:- Mon, Mar 19, 2001 at 00:26:12 (GMT)
__ JHB -:- Neither -:- Mon, Mar 19, 2001 at 00:15:04 (GMT)
__ __ Jim -:- Y not write some for Bhole Ji and Raja Ji too? -:- Mon, Mar 19, 2001 at 00:21:43 (GMT)
__ __ __ Mata Ji -:- Hey heller, what am I, chopped liver? nt -:- Mon, Mar 19, 2001 at 00:54:29 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ such -:- Lighten up,Mata baby!You look a bit ashen faced(mt -:- Mon, Mar 19, 2001 at 07:31:14 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Brian Smith -:- No Mata Ji, you are just dead, circa 1991 remember -:- Mon, Mar 19, 2001 at 01:42:57 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Mata Ji -:- Sorry. I thought this was the astral plane...nt -:- Mon, Mar 19, 2001 at 01:45:12 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Brian Smith -:- No Mata Ji , this is the internet, Now go back to -:- Mon, Mar 19, 2001 at 01:49:11 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Mata Ji -:- I see Dead Satgurus They don't know they're deadnt -:- Mon, Mar 19, 2001 at 02:06:37 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Bohle Ji -:- Mata Ji, do you know where your kids are? (nt) -:- Mon, Mar 19, 2001 at 07:29:55 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ janet -:- can't you come kick prempal's fat butt? nt -:- Mon, Mar 19, 2001 at 02:15:47 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ JHB -:- Hey heller, what am I, chopped liver? -:- Mon, Mar 19, 2001 at 00:58:43 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Jim -:- Oh, John, you don't know what you missed -:- Mon, Mar 19, 2001 at 01:00:52 (GMT)
__ __ __ janet -:- theyre all welfare cheats anyway....nt -:- Mon, Mar 19, 2001 at 00:52:27 (GMT)

Moldy Warp -:- M and us travel to Hans Jayanti 77!!! -:- Mon, Mar 19, 2001 at 00:04:31 (GMT)
__ Joy -:- What a Contrast! -:- Mon, Mar 19, 2001 at 04:55:16 (GMT)
__ Connie -:- M and us travel to Hans Jayanti 77!!! -:- Mon, Mar 19, 2001 at 00:38:44 (GMT)
__ __ Pat Conlon -:- Jayanti 77 - pasta 3 times a day and constipation -:- Mon, Mar 19, 2001 at 01:48:22 (GMT)

AJW -:- Trouble in the Ranks, Cracks in the Cult? -:- Sun, Mar 18, 2001 at 22:34:30 (GMT)
__ Francesca -:- No - trouble in the banks, crocks in the cult! n/t -:- Tues, Mar 20, 2001 at 05:11:36 (GMT)
__ Tony Walker (Aussi Ji) -:- Trouble in the Ranks, Cracks in the Cult? -:- Mon, Mar 19, 2001 at 09:14:19 (GMT)
__ __ CW -:- What's your name? -:- Mon, Mar 19, 2001 at 14:18:45 (GMT)
__ __ __ Tony Walker -:- Your nose does'nt work Puss. -:- Mon, Mar 19, 2001 at 20:07:08 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Pat Conlon -:- Nose does'nt work because you put it out of joint -:- Mon, Mar 19, 2001 at 20:41:17 (GMT)
__ __ __ Nigel -:- FA - Anonymous twerp doing it again. -:- Mon, Mar 19, 2001 at 15:33:51 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Jim -:- FA -- Nigel's right for a change -:- Mon, Mar 19, 2001 at 15:45:57 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Tony Walker -:- Yeah piss him off! nt -:- Mon, Mar 19, 2001 at 20:16:25 (GMT)
__ __ __ JohnT -:- Just sniffin' around - what's CAT's name ? -:- Mon, Mar 19, 2001 at 15:23:48 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ THAT IS A THREAT FA- CW -:- Christian?For Christs sake_Who 's kidding who? -:- Tues, Mar 20, 2001 at 06:38:09 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Katie H. -:- to John T and Catweasel -:- Tues, Mar 20, 2001 at 18:41:46 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Cw -:- Pity you cant pick your chain being yanked? -:- Tues, Mar 20, 2001 at 10:40:15 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ janet -:- the criminal wants the law to protect him??? -:- Tues, Mar 20, 2001 at 09:30:41 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Pat Conlon -:- You are so BAD, janet - what about that spoonful -:- Tues, Mar 20, 2001 at 10:21:39 (GMT)
__ __ AJW -:- Hangin' to the left. -:- Mon, Mar 19, 2001 at 10:37:22 (GMT)
__ Cw -:- Trouble in the Ranks, Cracks in the Cult? -:- Mon, Mar 19, 2001 at 06:36:08 (GMT)
__ __ AJW -:- So Cat, let's see if I've got this right. -:- Mon, Mar 19, 2001 at 10:00:04 (GMT)
__ __ __ CW -:- Nah , you 're dreaming Anth -:- Mon, Mar 19, 2001 at 13:55:36 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ AJW -:- Wild horses wouldn't drag me to that shithole. -:- Mon, Mar 19, 2001 at 17:33:58 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ CW -:- Wild horses wouldn't drag me to that shithole. -:- Tues, Mar 20, 2001 at 02:42:38 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Jim -:- Michael Collins? Try Bugsy Malone (nt) -:- Tues, Mar 20, 2001 at 04:52:24 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ CW -:- Michael Collins? Try Bugsy Malone (nt) -:- Tues, Mar 20, 2001 at 06:26:49 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ JohnT -:- I've got a picture of YOU too, CAT -:- Mon, Mar 19, 2001 at 15:28:18 (GMT)
__ Jim -:- ***Nominee for Best Anth Signature Phrase*** -:- Sun, Mar 18, 2001 at 22:57:35 (GMT)
__ __ Tony Walker (Aussi Ji) -:- They're all fantastic.can't choose..nt -:- Mon, Mar 19, 2001 at 20:10:15 (GMT)
__ __ AJW -:- Postcards from a Veg' -:- Sun, Mar 18, 2001 at 23:13:43 (GMT)
__ __ __ Marianne -:- I know why it's falling apart -:- Sun, Mar 18, 2001 at 23:21:07 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ test -:- test -:- Tues, Mar 20, 2001 at 20:09:45 (GMT)


Date: Mon, Mar 19, 2001 at 06:07:58 (GMT)
From: Joe
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: The Personal v. the Big Picture
Message:
From time to time premies (PWKs) come to the Forum and say something like:

I have a good life, and I'm successful and happy. I practice knowledge and I enjoy it, and I find Maharaji inspiring, and I enjoy seeing him at events and in videos. I don't give much money to Maharaji or Elan Vital, and although things were pretty weird in the 70s and 80s, Maharaji has straightened all that out now, and it's not a cult. Also, I have had a couple of really great personal experiences with Maharaji (in darshan, or in talking with him etc.,), and it was one of the most profound experiences in my life.

And then there are the really funny things to explain the contradictions that inevitably are presented to these people, like:

I didn't see the commandments as commandments, like I thought never leave room for doubt was about finding truth (just really badly worded);

I thought pranaming was a yoga exercise;

I never understood 'Lord' and so it didn't affect me, and, boy of boy, I just didn't have the means to think it had anything to do with 'god', etc.

I never took that stuff literally, and it wasn't meant to be.

etc>

You know, the stuff that's on Drek's website of the premie responses. We have them all memorized by now.

Well, one retort to this, other than, well that isn't MY experience, is the bigger picture. You know, how Maharaji never gave a shit about the premies, how he treated the ashramites and the Initiators, as well as his disgraceful personal behavior, greed, etc. I mean, Maharaji himself is the biggest problem for premies, because he is such an easy target. And not very good at PR.

I think one example of this came up when Erika was saying she had a really groovy conversation with Maharaji about whether she should leave the ashram and get married in 1982. She was really scared to bring it up (which is weird and undermines her contention that fear wasn't involved 'for her,' (again the subjective defense.)) Maharaji apparently didn't say much, kind of said she should make up her own mind, but she saw it as him being supportive of her as a person, and making up her own mind. Okay, personal level.

Now the bigger picture.

What was going on outside that room where Erika sat with Maharaji in 1982? Well, I'll tell you one thing that was going on, David Smith, acting on orders from Maharaji himself, was terrorizing the ashram premies in the Bay Area, in a fashion that would make the Spanish Inquisition pale. There wasn't the slightest suggestion that we ashramites should 'see what's true for us' or that we should 'just take a vacation and see how things go,' or that 'we should just think about it and see how we feel' etc.

No, we got a very different message from Maharaji than Erika did, and it was 'surrender now' 'shape up or ship out,' and you aren't allowed to even read books, let alone have 'special friends.' No, it was really different. Frannie can testify to what this was like.

So, the picture I am getting, as as confirmed by the Mikes, is that Maharaji lets others carry out the dirty work, but can play nicey in a private setting. He sets the Nazi David Smith loose on us in San Francisco, while in Miami, he's telling Erika to take a vacation, teach music to her kids, and make up her own mind about the ashram. Right at the very same time. Which is more significant? The personal, or the bigger picture?

So, what do you do? Take Erika's 'personal experience' of M, and expand that into a 25-years devotion, or do you take the uncarring treatment of dozens of other premies who weren't sitting in a room with him and dump this fraud for what he is?

Isn't this kind of one of the basic problems here?

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Date: Tues, Mar 20, 2001 at 18:19:44 (GMT)
From: Katie H.
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: Thanks, Joe - and it's true for all of us
Message:
It's called social consciousness. There's a lot of things we all could do that would be 'good for us', but would indirectly hurt other people.

In my experience it is very hard to make someone have social consciousness - especially about a particular issue where they haven't seen or don't believe in the harm being done to others by something they support. (I'm not implying that Erika or other premies don't have social consciousness in other areas - I know they do.) That is the value of this site and forum - or part of the value. I know the revelations here affected me in that way.

Take care - and lots of love,
Katie

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Date: Tues, Mar 20, 2001 at 00:32:43 (GMT)
From: donner
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: The Personal v. the Big Picture
Message:
great post and great point joe....and how many times did i hear behind someone's back what m really thought and of course did not say to them to their face. so even the 'nice' stories have a different side to them.
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Date: Mon, Mar 19, 2001 at 20:30:51 (GMT)
From: Chuck Sprague
Email: bctanda@hotmail.com
To: Joe
Subject: The importance of the Big Picture...
Message:
The Big Picture is exactly what a cult does not want you to see. I've just been reading all the replies to this thread, and they are so excellent. A lot of good points have been made.

The cult thrives on keeping premies focused on the 'small' picture. The rationalizations and justifications premies make work just fine, as long as they don't see the bigger picture. Premies like Sandy's wife don't want to hear a word of what is said here, because they instinctively know that their fragile belief system could be blown apart by new information, information that would allow them to connect the dots, and see the larger picture.

I have to give Erika credit for at least posting here, and being willing to examin some things. She's been given a lot to think about, and I'm sure it's too much to assimilate all at once. She said she was going to withdraw, that she has to let some of this information 'percolate' for a while. She said she couldn't answer all the questions people have asked, because she doesn't have answers for some of those questions herself. She didn't say she would never post here again, only that she would post less, and she needed time to think. When premies get new information, they either try to reject it, or try to assimilate it. I think Erika is doing the latter, and it's often not a comfortable experience. I hope she will perservere.

I feel that on the whole, she was treated pretty well here. I know she felt battered at times, but I think part of that is because premies are not used to having their opinions and experiences with K and M examined and critisized, or challenged, I mean really critically challenged (as opposed to lite critisms exchanged between premies). And part of that has nothing to do with ex-premies. As someone wisely pointed out, it is a part of the internet experience. In that respect Forum V is not much different than other internet forums.

I felt she was pretty brave to post here as a premie, I couldn't post here until after I had made a definite mental break with M., and even then it was difficult. But it sure has been worth it! I resolved to be not afraid to look at the bigger picture. The truth always holds up to scrutiny, while lies are ultimatly exposed by it. I have only lost illusions, and what I have gained in their place is much more satisfiying. The truth really does set you free.

I'm glad Erika took the time to post here, I feel a lot of good issues were brought up and addressed, that may help many people who read the forum. I hope we will hear more from Erika, when she has had some time to assimilate things and sort things out for herself. When premies get new information, it can be upsetting, for a time. But it doesn't have to ''ruin'' your experience of life, in fact, you may end up enjoying life more, once you sort yourself out. I know I am experiencing a lightness and freedom these days that I haven't felt in years, I'm just free to be me, free to be myself, without trying to fit myself in somebodys box. I'm very grateful.

Thanks Joe, for sticking to the facts, and not letting us lose sight of the larger, complete picture.

Thanks Susan, for reminding Erika (and everyone that reads here) that even people in cults can have good experiences. I had once thought that I could not possibly be in a cult, because I had good experiences. That seems so silly now. If people only had bad expriences in cults, they wouldn't stay in them. EVERYONE has good and bad experiences, whoever they are. That's life.

Thanks everyone, for your contributions here.

- Chuck Sprague, who believes a Master is someone who owns a dog (unless it's Themla in her fishnet stockings).

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Date: Mon, Mar 19, 2001 at 22:58:41 (GMT)
From: Kelly
Email: None
To: Chuck Sprague
Subject: The Big Picture...I heartily concur. nt
Message:
Thanx
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Date: Mon, Mar 19, 2001 at 18:27:55 (GMT)
From: Francesca
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: Yes, brother Joe, I testify!
Message:
I have spoken of 'the purge' in other posts for the past several months. Joe is not exaggerating. In fact, after Herr Schmitz went through the men's ashram where Joe lived (in Oakland), it caused such personal devasatation amongst the ashram brothers who had so little of their own to begin with --
in the sense of belongings
in the sense of personal space
in the sense of time for oneself (for healthy personal growth)--

that Schmitz had to go a little lighter on everyone else. As I remember it, all personal belonging were going to be taken away. No books, no non-premie music, no magazines, etc. We were told that it was going to be so bad that my ashram sister took her math textbooks to her aunt's house (she used to teach at the college level in another state) and I took little personal items liked stuffed animals to work and put them in a file drawer.

However, we sisters in SF were not totally spared, as Barara Mahler was going around our house even before the purge and throwing our stuff away. She figured she had authority from on high. 'No books that the Lord does not want us to read!' she said, gloatingly, as she held a copy of Steven Martin's 'Cruel Shoes' over the trashcan and dumped it in. She went through the whole house for books. She threw away certain foods (like artificial mayonnaise) because after that horrible Kissimmee ashram meeting tirade of the Bratguru, she decided that we should have, 'No substitute foods for the foods the Lord would not want us to eat!'

The funny thing was that Eve Jacobs came to the ashram after Schmitz left, and Eve was reading the same novel that Barbara had thrown away (one of the sisters had been reading it until it was unceremoniously dumped).

I hope Barbara has lightened up, because I haven't seen her in years. But all the years I did know her, she was hot and cold -- i.e. reasonable, and then fanatical.

Love, F

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Date: Mon, Mar 19, 2001 at 20:40:47 (GMT)
From: Francesca
Email: None
To: all
Subject: Forgot to mention that it was not 'cruel shoes'
Message:
that Eve was reading. Barbara threw out a lot of books. I didn't pay any attention to what she was reading, but one of the other sisters thought it was really funny, and talked to Eve about how she enjoyed the book!
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Date: Mon, Mar 19, 2001 at 18:41:37 (GMT)
From: Joe
Email: None
To: Francesca
Subject: The worst part
Message:
You know, Erika, really the most damaging part of what Smith did to was was twofold.

1. He gave these fire and brimstone speeches to the asrham premies, that were completely abusive, the subject being that we were useless pieces of shit, that Maharaji was angry that we were so spaced and undevoted, and it was our fault there weren't any aspirants, and that we had better get our act together, (i.e. turn into mindles automatons, just like David Smith.

2. He maintained that he had directions from Maharaji to do just what he did. And like you said, since Maharaji had already been so heavy on us at Kissimee, it didn't even seem inconsistent.

That was the worst part. Funny, Maharaji apparently never got around to telling Smith that we should all take a vacation, and just be good to ourselves, and just figure what 'was true for us,' unlike what he apparently implied to Erika.

Now, clearly in retrospect, David Smith was mentally ill, but Maharaji is ultimately responsible here.

By the way, one of my unanswered letters to Maharaji, covered this very subject. The lack of response from Maharaji, after having devoted myself and every cent of my earnings to him for 10 years, was a major drip for me.

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Date: Mon, Mar 19, 2001 at 18:44:29 (GMT)
From: Joe
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: Sorry Franny, that was to you not Erika,
Message:
Although it might not hurt her to read it.

BTW, I printed out that picture of you and it's on the bulletin board behind my desk. Every time I look at it, I can't stop laughing. Thanks, so much. Laughter is always good, and very theraputic.

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Date: Mon, Mar 19, 2001 at 20:44:02 (GMT)
From: Francesca
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: Sorry Franny, that was to you not Erika,
Message:
I figured that out! but thanks. I also fogot to mention that it was an astute comparison between Erika's scene with MJ talking about teaching music to her kids and following her heart, and David Schmitz stomping on ours.

After all, no friend, no family, no feelings except 'devotion,' puke blah, puke blah, puke blah

Glad you liked the picture!

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Date: Mon, Mar 19, 2001 at 16:57:49 (GMT)
From: Susan
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: great post
Message:
Again, you are one of the most insightful writers here. And also you have been one of the personally kindest to me....thanks for another great post.
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Date: Mon, Mar 19, 2001 at 11:59:43 (GMT)
From: Jerry
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: The Personal v. the Big Picture
Message:
The thing about Erika is that she approached Maharaji with an image of him in her mind that he was way above her. This wasn't just some nice guy that was giving her friendly advice. To Erika, this was the guy who came down off his throne in heaven to mingle with us lowly humans, and impressed the heck out of her for doing so. What Erika needs to do is look more closely at Donner's and Dettmer's testimonies and see the guy for who he really is... a goddam hypocrite! Even hypocrites can give good, friendly advice. It doesn't make them nice people. It just shows what kind of facade they can carry off.
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Date: Mon, Mar 19, 2001 at 10:33:43 (GMT)
From: AJW
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: The Personal v. Sanity
Message:
Hi Joe,

That's right on the ball. I would questions Erika's interpretation of her conversation with Captain Rawat. If Erica believed that the Captain was the Superior Power in person while she was talking to him, this clouds her interpretation of the event.

Premies are incredibly good at changing the Captains sow's ears into silk purses.

If the Captain is the Lord of the Universe, everything he does and says is for the benefit of Erica's soul. Of course she's going to put her best face on it.

I'd say Erica's 'personal experience' is as open to as much interpretation as she herself has put on it. (Multiply everything by infinity and you always get the answer you want.)

Anth the finite.

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Date: Mon, Mar 19, 2001 at 09:01:40 (GMT)
From: Dermot
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: Blocks to premie Realization
Message:
Really good post Joe. I was thinking along vaguely similar lines this morning before reading your post.

I came up with three blocks to premie realization but I'm sure there are many more.

1. Not reflecting on the flow of chance and circumstance of their lives from birth to present day.

2. Continuing to believe that the vagaries of their individual, subjective experience (the common experience of the human animal)is somehow reliant on the grace and favour(or otherwise) of Prem Pal Singh Rawat.

3. Not thinking deeply and dispassionately enough on the ever increasing revelations (especially of PAMS) in the public domain regarding the hypocritical words and behaviour of Prem Pal Singh Rawat.This 'not thinking' is perhaps due to a desire to not confront head on such revelations but rather to sentimentally hope that somehow they will just go away and former certainties will return in full grace and glory.

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Date: Mon, Mar 19, 2001 at 17:54:33 (GMT)
From: Joe
Email: None
To: Dermot
Subject: Blocks to premie Realization
Message:
. Continuing to believe that the vagaries of their individual, subjective experience (the common experience of the human animal)is somehow reliant on the grace and favour(or otherwise) of Prem Pal Singh Rawat.

Very well said. And the subjective experience feeds off the doubt in themselves that is inherent in the cult system. I have a good experience with M or knowledge, and if I don't, it must be my fault, not M or knowledge. The result is, M gets credit for all that is good, and nothing that's bad.

Fortunately, most of us in the West were raised with at least the rudiments of a sense of justice and right and wrong. I know for me, it was the way I saw OTHERS being treated in the cult that got me to question, and it was only later that I saw how miserable I was myself, so conditioned I was to discount my ability to know or analyze those things myself.

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Date: Mon, Mar 19, 2001 at 18:09:19 (GMT)
From: Katie Darling
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: Hey Joe
Message:
you said: 'I know for me, it was the way I saw OTHERS being treated in the cult that got me to question, and it was only later that I saw how miserable I was myself, so conditioned I was to discount my ability to know or analyze those things myself. '

Funnily enough I had just written almost the exact same thing in my post in this thread below quoting my letter to Erika.

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Date: Mon, Mar 19, 2001 at 06:57:30 (GMT)
From: Connie
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: Excellent as usual Joe
Message:
Extremely valid subject, Bigger picture v Smaller picture.

Thanks for taking the time to express it so clearly.

Illustrates the way the organization works and how people operate, and the slide of loss of morals, integrity, compassion and growth. This has been going on for 30 years for some.

I never knew David Smith was like that, I've read a few times here about his abusive behaviour from different people, all stating the same thing. Just thought he was a bit distant. Incredible eh.

BTW, you have never come across to me on FV as 'inflexible'. Your posts have always indicated someone of integrity and decency, with a strong sense of what is right and wrong (& funny and maybe a little frustrated at times). This was one of the things that caught my attention on this forum, as it was in COMPLETE contrast to the world of k, where unfortunately there is only the smaller picture view, doesn't matter about the rest, ABSOLUTELY EVERYBODY is totally dispensable, without a second thought given to them. MY EXPERIENCE AND WHAT I FEEL AND DO is the only thing that matters. The bigger picture in pwkdom is universal only in the context of seeing and doing for m the person.

It was tearing me apart. Even though it took so long for me to see it for what it was, I feel lucky not to have lost every shred of humanity in me, and could recognize the total corruptness of it all.

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Date: Mon, Mar 19, 2001 at 22:17:01 (GMT)
From: Francesca
Email: None
To: Connie
Subject: You've stated one of Erika's key conflicts ...
Message:
quite articulately, though several of us have in different ways -- me Susan, Joe, and so many others in threads all over the place this weekend. (So many posts directed at one person can be tough, but I hope she reads them, although I don't expect her to keep trying to answer. In fact, too much answering may disrupt the processing.)

It's the lack of compassion for others that is such a key component of M's cult. Being able to 'turn up' connection to my own experience and 'tune out' the experiences of others. Divide and conquer, as Mike Donner said. That phrase comes back to me in so many ways, applied to situations vis a vis the cult.

I think you were the one who also described the scene so well where a wife gets invited to M's secret invite bash, doesn't even tell her own husband and they see each other (or their children, or their good friends) as they come in. And smile that 'secret little smile.' Aren't we so lucky! Oh, puke.

I've been reading some stuff that Elisabeth Kubler-Ross said about working with death and dying and it is interesting to apply some of the concepts here. The more that others die, the more invincible we may feel, rather than the other way around -- instead of having more compassion, more empathy. The dying can almost become pariahs. That's extreme, but the tendency to push them away because we don't understand, or don't want to understand, or don't want to be in the same 'club' they're in, is there. I think this happens in a smaller way with life's other slings and arrows. There are many primitive emotions we have, and they are not noble. It's best to see the tendencies for what they are and often they are overcome, just in the knowing and being gentle to ourselves as well.

I saw that I can even push away my own father's death process somewhat if I am not mindful, because it is not me who's dying. It's important that I don't do that, that I allow it to be part of my process too. The same with other people's pain. When we are one, when we are interconnected, I see that it is my pain too. Then I don't run.

Yah, we all wake up, that's the good part!

Francesca

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Date: Tues, Mar 20, 2001 at 00:29:21 (GMT)
From: Connie
Email: None
To: Francesca
Subject: Yep, the good part
Message:
Francesca

Sad to hear about your father, you have my sympathy. I hope he is comfortable and from what you have said, know he is being supported, a very important thing when dying.

Supporting each other, only as much as we are capable of, when losing a loved one is an important expression of compassion and care, even though it can be hard. I think this is because those surrounding someone's leaving of life have no way of computing what it is like, we can only observe, plus realize that we will go through this process as well. Saying goodbye to someone we loved, or who has just always been there is never easy.

Very good relating dying and death to leaving the cult, many parallels.

Take care.

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Date: Tues, Mar 20, 2001 at 00:55:10 (GMT)
From: Francesca
Email: None
To: Connie
Subject: Supporting each other
Message:
Yes, the other part of the equation is that this is just as much about supporting my mother and everyone else involved.

My mother-in-law is in the hospital on this coast re her degenerative arthritis (family circus, I know), and my father-in-law has a hard time just dealing with it. He feels so much compassion and helplessness that he just has to get away sometimes. Reminds me of some Winston Churchill quote about 'those that stand and wait.'

Thanks for your kind thoughts, and your affirming of the parallels.

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Date: Mon, Mar 19, 2001 at 19:18:05 (GMT)
From: Joe
Email: None
To: Connie
Subject: Well said, Connie
Message:
Thanks Connie. It is kind of amazing how supposedly Maharaji is giving this 'gift' of love, understanding and peace, and yet the whole organization around him and the way people are treated, is so fucked up.

I did hear that a bunch of the hierarchy of Elan Vital resigned because they were, once again, put in the awkward position of doing unethical things surrounding covering up Jagdeo's child molestation. So, I think most people do have a conscience, and a breaking point.

A point about David Smith, and really it applies to others too. David could be a real nice guy sometimes. But I think his mental state was/maybe still is, one that is highly susceptible to dogmatically carring out the orders of somebody he thinks is God, and then all other morals, conscience, and human decency go out the window, if he thinks that's required to do what Maharaji wants. And then, also because of the whole 'surrender' system Maharaji set up, Smith had a whole group of people, almost completely vulnerable to what he inflicted on them. So, Maharaji is responsible both or utilizing Smith, and also for making his victims so vulnerable.

I think that's clearly what happened in the ashram inquisition Frannie, I, and others accross the world have talked about in connection with Mr. Smith. I do think it was due to his own mental problems, but it was Maharaji who made it all possible.

Connie, I really enjoy your posts, and I think your perspective is very important, because you were so recently involved.

Joe

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Date: Mon, Mar 19, 2001 at 06:46:14 (GMT)
From: TD
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: Brilliant Joe - that totally sums it up....!!
Message:
So, what do you do? Take Erika's 'personal experience' of M, and expand that into a 25-years devotion, or do you take the uncarring treatment of dozens of other premies who weren't sitting in a room with him and dump this fraud for what he is?

I've read a lot of profound things on this website over the years, but Joe - this one - is a cracker and really hit home for me. Especially as so many of us became premies because of someone telling us about 'their personal experience' of M and K. If our only exposure to the whole cult had been the 'big picture' sort of stuff, we'd never have gotten sucked in, or even if that happened, stayed very long. I think that is why so many premie lite aspirants, piss off once they've received K. Unless they've got a constant source near by (ie premie partner/friend/etc) to keep reinforcing the 'personal experience' tales, then the 'big picture' stuff would soon put them off (expensive events, dysfunctional premies, fat squeaky Indian twat on a chair sprouting garbage)...

Mind you - it also cuts both ways. For a number of ex-premies who witnessed seeing Maharaji act like a total and utter bastard in a private setting - that probably got them out quicker than the big picture stuff.... in the end, they were probably much luckier than people like Erika who got the 'I'm your nice touchy-feely guru' sanitised version of M. They're out while she's still being misled by a fraud - all because of a couple of nice 'personal experiences'. Wonder if Erika had seen him do a hit'n'run of an Indian man - or witness him discarding one of the female premies he'd just shagged - would she still be espousing how 'nice he was'....

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Date: Mon, Mar 19, 2001 at 11:03:07 (GMT)
From: Marianne
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: Agree wholeheartedly
Message:
Thank you for saying all of that. And Joe, you're extremely open minded and kind hearted. Erika has a great deal of sorting out to do.

Marianne

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Date: Mon, Mar 19, 2001 at 11:20:13 (GMT)
From: Pat Conlon
Email: None
To: Marianne
Subject: I hope she does sort it out
Message:
I think she bit off more than she could chew. Top of the morning to you. It was so hot for two days the fog was sucked right in.
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Date: Mon, Mar 19, 2001 at 11:38:05 (GMT)
From: Katie Darling
Email: None
To: Pat Conlon, Joe etc.
Subject: I hope she does sort it out
Message:
I think she IS sorting it out. I don't need her to agree with me. I'm more concerned about people who are really suffering in cult-think and maybe don't see any way out, or people who are out and really suffered but never did a recovery process. Thousand of ex-premies in suspended animation, not quite realizing they have P.T.C.S.D. (Post-Traumatic Cult Stress Disorder).

Joe, I think the big/small picture thing is one of the cruxes of the matter. This is part of what I wrote way below to Erika, whom I knew.

'I really get what you are saying about the validity of your experience no matter what ours were (you can read mine all over the place here - used to be Disculta, and I have a Journey). I was thinking about it last night, and I remembered two clients I had in my therapy practice years ago, who were sisters. One had been consistently sexually abused by their grandfather. The other wasn't. She thought of him as a kindly old Santa Claus-type figure. The issue they were having was between themselves - the molested one feeling that the other one should cut all ties with the ailing old geyser. Both their experiences were valid. Should the non-molested one be influenced by the other one's experience?

I think it's a valid question. I have spent a lot of my life since being a premie in various explorations of belief systems and how different realities can co-exist and both be valid, and how to stretch one's consciousness to integrate both sides of something. Both grandfathers were the 'real' grandfather, some of the time. But a full understanding of the grandfather included both, I think.

I actually left MJ because of the effects I saw that his irresponsible disowned behavior was having on others, more than on me. I became outraged (I wrote about the details of this in a recent inactive post). Briefly, I wrote a very long letter to him detailing how things he was saying and doing were making premies suicidal - I had dealt with three in a week, and what was he going to do to clear up the confusion. I knew who to give the letter to (having been a mail-answerer myself) and never heard anything and exited. Only later did I realize to what extent I myself was traumatized and my health battered by some very direct stuff that MJ did and said.'

We are above the fog up here, but have been watching it snaking in on our hikes in the glorious headlands. Cough cough.

Love to all, Katie Darling

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Date: Mon, Mar 19, 2001 at 15:21:25 (GMT)
From: Brian
Email: brian@ex-premie.org
To: Katie Darling
Subject: Looking at what's leftover afterwards
Message:
Something that I found helpful when I was sorting through the false beliefs that I held and the underlying beliefs that supported them was an idea that I had heard or read somewhere before.

That everything I believe or do, regardless of whether it's objectively in my best interest, is always believed or done by a part of me that is trying to protect me from some danger that is posssibly long-forgotten. That part of me is always looking out for me, and seems to require praise for the job done so far and then relieving of duty before it will stop 'helping'.

In many cases, I had forgotten the initial danger because I've already 'delegated' the job of watching out for it to some behavior or belief. I raised some shield long ago and could then forget what the threat was, since it had been 'dealt with' and no longer needed my conscious attention.

When I question those beliefs later, I feel anxiety rising from the part in charge of maintaining that 'protection'. Incorporating other people's accounts with my own helps to complete the 'Big Picture'. But it's still very hard to remove the 'Personal' behaviour or belief after I've unconsciously built it up to reinforce its protective effect.

It's easy to say that I should quit my job after it's been 'proven' to me that my employer's product line includes nerve gas. But the only reason that I spent as long at that (or any other) company as I did was to provide for my family and protect myself from being pennyless in my old age. I wanted steady work at a good income promising a pension.

If I'm not able to see that those are my real concerns, I'm forced to rationalize that Acme Company also makes soap - a very helpful product - and to remember the good friends that I've made, the company picnics, etc. It's counter to my own self-protection to even consider quitting, so the rationalisations pour from my un-examined needs.

Or maybe I write letters to the the Board of Directors in the hope of getting the harmful product dropped from production. I want to view them as not being aware of the harm in the product, and if I point it out, THEY will change so that I won't have to.

But their reasons to continue in their own self-protective behaviors are just as powerful as mine, so the gas rolls on.

When I was working through my beliefs about Maharaji, I found that part of me didn't even want to risk my being able to review the real reason for buying into it in the first place, and it was hard to drag it out of myself. For me, it was the underlying belief that there is a God and 'he' knows what I'm doing even if I don't. That I should live on faith rather than take any responsibility for areas of my life that might result in a massive eternal mistake - like damnation.

It was as if that part of me responsible for ensuring that the total 'me' didn't end up in Hell was refusing to put the subject on the table for discussion. The consequences were so extreme and I had proven to myself that too many times that I was incapable of making the 'right' decision on 'important' matters.

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Date: Tues, Mar 20, 2001 at 23:48:47 (GMT)
From: bill--good to see
Email: None
To: Brian
Subject: you posting more Brian....nt
Message:
asfg
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Date: Tues, Mar 20, 2001 at 04:58:38 (GMT)
From: Francesca
Email: None
To: Brian
Subject: Just read this again, GREAT POST***** n/t
Message:
thank you thank you
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Date: Mon, Mar 19, 2001 at 22:14:53 (GMT)
From: Monmot
Email: None
To: Brian
Subject: The Human Face on the Mechanism of Denial
Message:
Brian:

Fabulous post which deconstructs how we create, and remain in, denial. Denial is such an effective tool in protecting ourselves, particularly because its strength is in allowing us to believe, albeit unconsciously, that we're safe as long as the belief(s) which the denial is protecting remain in place.

Ironically, quite the opposite it true, and it usually takes quite a lot, if not disastrous, challenges to these unstated and unchallenged beliefs before we will examine them. Thomas Kuhn wrote a book delineating the mechanics of a paradigm shift and one thing I remember from reading this book is that there's an incredibly enormous amount of stress right before a paradigm shift. After the shift takes place, quesions which apparently had no answers were automatically answered post-shift, because the new paradigm's parameters incorporate the old paradigm while simultaneously expanding into a new dimension, allowing a previously and seemingly impossible perspective to emerge.

I remember the incredible stress I felt when I was in the process of leaving M, and how, after much quesioning of my beliefs, there finally was cool relief. All the questions about K and M which I couldn't integrate into my previous belief system were either answered or became non-issues afterward. Kind of like leaving the paradigm of fear and entering into the process of self-realization without an external monitor or internalized M judging every move. Quite freeing actually, and although it's the end of one restrictive system, it's the beginning of another expansive one. Sometimes I think life is just a process of paradigm shifts.

So although many of us may have been hurt and angered by M, we are fortunate to have been able to use those hurts and anger as the motivating force to evict ourselves from CultLand and allowing us to enter into the greener pastures of our own lives as we choose to live them.

M

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Date: Tues, Mar 20, 2001 at 01:55:47 (GMT)
From: Chuck Sprague
Email: None
To: Monmot
Subject: Great posts, Monmot and Brian (nt)
Message:
Been there, done that, got the T-shirt. And what a RELIEF afterward!
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Date: Tues, Mar 20, 2001 at 00:05:13 (GMT)
From: Francesca
Email: None
To: Monmot
Subject: Paradigm shift
Message:
Great post there. This really got to me:

Thomas Kuhn wrote a book delineating the mechanics of a paradigm shift and one thing I remember from reading this book is that there's an incredibly enormous amount of stress right before a paradigm shift. After the shift takes place, quesions which apparently had no answers were automatically answered post-shift, because the new paradigm's parameters incorporate the old paradigm while simultaneously expanding into a new dimension, allowing a previously and seemingly impossible perspective to emerge.

Like births. But only with the death of old ways of looking at things, because the new paradigm's parameters incorporate the old paradigm while simultaneously expanding it into a new dimension.

Leaving K behind is not the only major paradigm shift I've gone through over the past 20 years, but it was one of the biggies. I went through one over the past two years, and that description you posted really nailed it for me. And yes, the K stuff was incorporated into the next paradigm and into the latest one. But it's amazing that the K stuff is still getting worked on, because each time the paradigm shifts, all that old crap comes along and gets retooled, reunderstood, and rexplained.

Does this make sense??

Love, f

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Date: Tues, Mar 20, 2001 at 02:15:48 (GMT)
From: Monmot
Email: None
To: Francesca
Subject: You Betcha
Message:
Hey F:

I completely understand what you're saying. I recently had a shift in which the resulting perspective was the total opposite of the one I had before the shift. It had to do with my childhood which, obviously, precedes my time with K & M, so it makes perfect sense that your understanding and perspective regarding K (and any other important aspects of your life) get shifted also. Usually, too, with these shifts, the emotional load carried gets lightened for some reason. Maybe experiencing these paradigm shifts is akin to experiencing a sort of emotional evolution in motion.

I think going through life resisting and not allowing these shifts is equivalent to living the unexamined and inauthentic life. You tend to get stuck. But it's hard work and takes a lot of willingness to hang glide over the abyss and to live with ambiguity while you're getting your belief system retooled.

One of my favorite T-shirts (now defunct) said on the front: When one door closes, another opens. And on the back it said: But the hallways sure are dark. I always thought that described a paradigm shift to perfection, plus it's funny.

Thanks, F
M

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Date: Tues, Mar 20, 2001 at 05:04:18 (GMT)
From: Francesca
Email: None
To: Monmot
Subject: Here's to dark hallways!! LOLs n/t
Message:
n/t
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Date: Mon, Mar 19, 2001 at 22:26:39 (GMT)
From: Joe
Email: None
To: Monmot
Subject: Wow, awesome post...
Message:
I'm continually amazed how I can relate so vividly to an anlysis like you just wrote. Reading your post is like putting flesh on the bones of my views on what actually happened. Leaving M, or at least the lead-up to leaving M, was one of the most stressful, and at the same time exciting, periods in my life. And that's so true about all the answers coming to questions I hadn't dared ask before.

Of course, for many of us, what goes along with getting the answers is the feeling of having been so stupid to have not seen them before the shift.

Thanks for that great post.

Joe

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Date: Mon, Mar 19, 2001 at 23:28:17 (GMT)
From: Richard
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: Brian, Monmot, Joe - I am doing that now
Message:
Even after basiclly setting M & K aside in 1987, I never really made a clean break as, say Donner did by mailing M that letter. So last week when I began posting as myself, my palms sweat for 2 days, I voraciously read and responded to everything and have incredible energy and positive outlook. This I attribute to letting go of the fear I did not know I was carrying. I was living sub or semi-conciously in the old self-protective paradigm) using both Brian's and Monmot's model). In fact, Joe, I was still somehow in 'that place' inside.

This is a huge psychological revelation here gents.

Richard - sweaty palms no more

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Date: Tues, Mar 20, 2001 at 02:25:37 (GMT)
From: Monmot
Email: None
To: Richard
Subject: It ain't easy, but you're doing it....
Message:
Richard:

Getting wise to ways of denial is like catching a demon in your blindspot, and you're to be congratulated for being willing and able to do so. It's weird, because Thomas Kuhn was writing about scientific paradigms, but everything he said fit to perfection the emotional and psychological paradigm shift I had just experienced. It really helped me see that I hadn't been insane, but that I had endured an arduous process.

Congrats to all of us really, because you have to go through this one way or another in order to fully separate from M, sort of like casting out the devil in our heads.

Take care
M

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Date: Tues, Mar 20, 2001 at 02:33:43 (GMT)
From: Richard
Email: None
To: Monmot
Subject: You're totally Monmot... and we love it!! /nt
Message:
nt
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Date: Mon, Mar 19, 2001 at 23:54:02 (GMT)
From: Joe
Email: None
To: Richard
Subject: Brian, Monmot, Joe - I am doing that now
Message:
Richard,

From what I can tell, you've come quite some way. (If that speech for M at Portland is any indication. That was really great, by the way.

Joe

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Date: Tues, Mar 20, 2001 at 01:06:07 (GMT)
From: Pat Conlon
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: I'm peeling onions and having some good cries
Message:
Layers and layers of Maharajism concepts peeling away only to find old paradigms some of which feel as comfortable as an old pair of slippers and others which are no longer useful. Having a good cry of relief and and even bigger belly laugh that I have
DIS-enchanted myself of that old bhakti juju spell.
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Date: Tues, Mar 20, 2001 at 02:30:13 (GMT)
From: Monmot
Email: None
To: Pat Conlon
Subject: Here's a vitual hanky...
Message:
You make me laugh with your wise and funny insights, and I am forever grateful to you for coming up with bhakti juju.

Gee, what do you think's at the center of the onion?

N

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Date: Tues, Mar 20, 2001 at 02:40:18 (GMT)
From: Pat Conlon
Email: None
To: Monmot
Subject: Here's a vitual hanky...If that typo were vital...
Message:
...you would be in the typo hall of fame along with ridiculting.

At the center of the onion? Who knows? I love opening surprise presents. I'm an optimist, so I'm sure is just what I always wanted.

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Date: Tues, Mar 20, 2001 at 05:09:29 (GMT)
From: Francesca
Email: None
To: Pat Conlon
Subject: Just what you always wanted.. brilliant!
Message:
I love it when you say things like that!

==f

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Date: Tues, Mar 20, 2001 at 08:45:56 (GMT)
From: Pat Conlon
Email: None
To: Francesca
Subject: I always new we were twins separated at birth NT
Message:
j
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Date: Mon, Mar 19, 2001 at 18:07:19 (GMT)
From: Katie Darling
Email: None
To: Brian
Subject: Brian, that's brilliant! nt
Message:
zcv
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Date: Mon, Mar 19, 2001 at 21:51:37 (GMT)
From: Richard
Email: None
To: Brian
Subject: I agree Brian brilliant re: self-protection /nt
Message:
nt
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Date: Wed, Mar 21, 2001 at 04:10:59 (GMT)
From: Test
Email: None
To: Richard
Subject: Test
Message:
Joebeforeandafter
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Date: Mon, Mar 19, 2001 at 04:12:44 (GMT)
From: janet
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: speech to mail to all premie organs of reading
Message:
Here's M's speech for tonight in Portland: 

i edited richard's draft of the speech mj ought to give, and reposted it here. i feel we each ought to send it to all the possible email organs where premies would read it. the more of them that see it, the deeper inroads. and the chance mj will read it.

he could make world headlines as the First Guru Who Ever Deprogrammed Himself.

Wild applause....................................
Thank you, thank you, for that warm and enthusiastic welcome.

I want to take a moment to thank all of you who have contributed so much to making this event unfold so wonderfully. (reads off list of names of Portland team) It has always been because of the energies of people like you, that these events have ever happened.

Thank you, Erika, for that beautiful music we're all listening to, You are truly talented. That letter you wrote to me has had an unexpected impact on me.

I want you all to know, how much I appreciate all of you coming here, on such short notice, to hear me speak. It means so much to me, that you are interested in my philosophy. I am truly touched, and I thank you all, from my heart.

But this will be the final gathering we hold, like this, ever. I have come to a lifechanging realization, about myself, and about all of you.

As you can see, I've done away with the stage and chair. It just isn't right anymore for me to put myself so far above you all. In fact, I feel now that it is I who should sit below you. As a dear former premie in the UK, Sir David Simpkiss, has said 'I walked amongst saints, and did not recognize it'.

Sir Dave, you are so right, and I have been so wrong. You all truly have been saints, to put up with my arrogance and tirades, for all these many long years,---- and all the while, you never lost the revolutionary zeal you brought to the party. I misused you and abused you and still you stayed for me.

Over the years, many of you have given up comfort, incomes, homes, your time, your love, your careers, your families, your money and your lives, so that I and my family could live a life of luxury. Today that all changes.

I have requested my former friend, and honest counsellor, Michael Dettmers, to come back and oversee the liquidation of all of my resources. My net worth is then to be set up a trust fund, to be used however you all see fit.

The Malibu house will be turned over to the Foundation, to be used as a counselling center and a retreat, for those to whom I've caused so much damage. Every one of you will be welcome there, when ever you need help.
I have begged Michael Donner whether he would kindly consider a request to return for a time, and organize all of the past instructors, as counsellors for this center,-- but only if they are interested.
But frankly, after the way i treated them, I would understand it if they did not want to return to anything involving me.

The house, by the way is a remarkable achievement-- by so many dedicated crafts people, and I wanted to personally thank them now, if you will permit me to read this list of those who built my house?
[reads off entire list with personal comments of true appreciation]

Once I vacate the malibu house and see that all the residences around the world, as well as the lands, are liquidated into the Trust, there will be another change:

I will be returning to India to live in a small house near the Ganges. There I plan to spend the rest of my life truly following the path my father gave to me, as he followed it himself. For once, I'm going to practice the Knowledge that he showed me. In time I hope to reconcile with my brothers and earn back their forgiveness, for the way I violated the trust they placed in me. As for my mother, Mata Ji...well, i guess it is too late to be able to make amends to her in this world. She was right about what i did, and I disappointed all her hopes in me as her youngest son. I know what i did, and it ends here.

some of you may know this; some of you may not. But it is time I came clean to you all:
My name is Prem Pal, and I am an alcoholic. I have been an alcoholic since I came to the West. Many concerned premies have tried to bring this to my attention, going all the way back to Bob Mischler.

Michael Dettmers and later, Michael Donner, each in their time, confronted me with my behavior and their difficulty with working for me, if i continued in it. I did not listen. Each of them resigned from their post--rather clearly i might add--directly due to it. And still i continued to drink, daily. I planned my schedule around my drinking. I never went a day without it.
In my alcoholism, I terrorized my children, my wife, my staff, and entire gatherings of all of you, at festivals. That was not me you were seeing. That was a monster. You have never known me as I really am--and never have I.

For this reason and many others, I am checking myself into a rehab program, where i will withdraw from the years of alcohol and drugs I have been using since i was a young teenager. I intend to find out who I am, when there is nothing left but me.

You gave me your trust and i returned it with pain. I owe you all, so deeply. I have so many amends to make. I am sure it will take me the rest of my life to do so...

And once I get out of the substance abuse facility and I am living my life in sobriety and Recovery, I think I will put my flight training to good use, perhaps by volunteering with Doctors Without Borders. I could enjoy helping transport people in need of medical treatment around the world.

Perhaps on trips back to the US, I'll get to visit Marolyn and my children, if they will allow me to see them, after all I've put them through. The children are all grown up now...It's time they went out into the world and found out what they can do with the unique talents they have. Not healthy for them to live isolated away from the rest of the world. I kept Wadi from college, and that was a mistake on my part. I intend to 'butt out' of her life decisions and trust her judgement of what's right for herself. And I mean that wih all my kids.

I was pushed into a career that was decided for me, you might say...and we all now how that turned out. I don't even know what I could have been!
I guess it's time to find out, huh?

You know....
In the big-inning, when I first came to London, I was so full of inspiration and possibility. Many of you greeted me there with so much love and dedication, and I want you to know, I truly appreciated that. I was too young to know what to do with it, though, and I was not disciplined enough and frankly, I feel I have squandered your love and dedication.

And I feel I have betrayed the mandate my father gave me-- to bring peace to the world. I know, I promised you the moon... and when I realized it was not possible, I could not face telling you the truth, until now.

I took the coward's path. I sought escape and solace in alcohol, at first, and then in material possessions, and then in other women. None of it worked, not really. And you guys paid for it all.

Today, I will stand before you and confess that I am an alcoholic, a rageaholic and I am addicted to having power over others. I realize now that I have done this because I am, in myself, powerless over these things. I am going into treatment for these faults, and I hope you can forgive me.

Many never will and I will live with that. But truly, I am sorry.
And I am grateful to you all. You made it all possible for me to make this journey. By myself, I couldn't have done any of it.
But found out what kind of person I am when I am given unlimited horizons, and I became a monster--to myself, and to you.
Please--don't ever let me do that to you again!

So now, I will stand here and the ushers will circulate wireless mikes, and if you have anything you would like to say to me, or ask me, please do. Unlike in the past, I will stay and respond to you for as long as you need me to.

Thank you.

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Date: Tues, Mar 20, 2001 at 08:03:03 (GMT)
From: janet
Email: None
To: janet
Subject: i just got here. read my letter to richard:
Message:
dear richard:
i wrote you a long reply, and it vanished, when i went into storage to get the text of the speech, to illustrate why i did what i did to your original.
sigh.
the essence of what i wanted to say was basically this: my sincere apology.
first i corrected the typos and spelling errors. no biggie there. then i went back and corrected the grammar for tense and plurality. no biggie there. I studiously stuck to the original order you wrote in. where i embellished, it was because I am all too familiar with alcoholism, having been the child of an alcoholic and having attended both open Alcoholics Anonymous and Adult Children of Alcoholics meetings in the 80's in Denver. In the long text that i lost, I described to you a great deal of my journey of living with the nightmare, while growing up, and the dam bursting in adulthood, with the realizations of what that did to me, and how it happens to all ACA's. Knowing that maharaji is an alcoholic, and that the premies are codependent enablers, I wanted to be sure the wording was dead on, to hit them where they live.
As the saying goes, it takes one to know one, and so in reading over your speech,I felt moved to amend the text to sound more accurate to what an actual alcoholic says, when they genuinely take the step you have him taking here. Since the premies are all codependently enmeshed in protecting him, much of their waking up depends on his utter honesty. What I did to your original words may not seem significantly different to you, but to any ACA, AA or Al Anon, I believe the changes I made do make a subtle difference in truth in attitude.
I genuinely apologize for jumping the gun and posting my rehash before coming to you and showing you what i did. I never worked in publications, so I'm kind of awkward about the stages you go through to write, proof, edit, final draft and then go to press. The net makes it all so fast I forgot to follow protocol. I should know better. It was your work. I never should have altered it without bringing it to you, much less making it public without discussion and your permission. It should have been a mutual collaboration with discussion behind the scenes, before anything further was done, that went into the publlic eye. Again--my bad. I know better.
[although if someone did that to me, i think I might read theirs, compare it to mine, and leave both of them up with bylines, for the free market to decide whose they like better. That's just me, after working for years on not letting myself get bent out of shape over things i can let be, if theres no great harm done. That, too, is an outgrowth of living in Recovery: learning to recognize what my Serenity is, and not allowing anything to supplant it. They have a saying in Recovery--'Nothing is worth trading your Serenity for']
Rather than have the FA take the second version down, suppose we keep them up side by side for the readers to read both versions.. I want you to have all the credit for writing it. I don't want credit. I never lusted after bragging rights or ego props. I just care that it gets done and gets the attention it deserves. I know you sweated blood to compose that. It was a brave move, both in facing yourself and in facing him. I know far more than i can say here, about that. I want it clear in public that that speech was created by you. if my name is connected to it at all, it should be only as proofreader and distributor.
I strongly believe every effort must be made to get this into the hands and eyes of as many premies as conceivable. the rumor grapevine should be stoked with this everywhere. maharaji will be thus forced to see it, read it and address it, regardless of whether he cares to or not.. once it enters the stream, especially on the internet, it takes on a life of its own and it will not go away.   I mean, hell--we all remember, verbatim, things he uttered clear back in 1971!!!
even in denying it, it will get stronger every time it's repeated. i was surprised at your passive disinterest in mailing it out. that to me smells a lot like the powerlessness i recognized in myself in codependency counseling. to have a viable idea and not follow through on it. So where you might have the inner shyness, modesty, paralysis, doubt, disbelief, pride,disdain...to take it that far, I believe in it, and i have the conviction born of years of overcoming the damage my codependency did to me, to take it public with a keen intent. Holding back benefits no one. Life is not a dress rehearsal! This is the performance! This is earnest! They're waiting.
There is one other aspect to this that we can bring into play, if you prefer. I would much rather be friends with you, and be of mutual agreement, than to get off on the wrong foot and be someone you thought of forever after with distaste, because of this. I knew you in Denver, though you may not remember me. I am sure you knew David Hurlburt, when he worked in the art dept., both at the Kittredge bldg and as art director for Light Reading. David Is my son's father. We have been related by blood because of that for 23 years. I always liked you, and more so recently on the forum, for your jokes and puns.
what i was thinking was, in copyright law, in hollywood, if you change something 15%, you can legally claim to have created something different from the author's original. so depending on how you want to be associated with this particular piece, you can lay claim to it under your own name, as you put it up, or you can consign it to me and say that i acted on my own impulse and it was none of your doing. or none of the above. Just another option. as i said, its your piece. it deserves your byline. i am offering to be the bad guy if you want the flak directed away from you. but i think this is too important to just modestly efface it, and go on. I volunteer sincerely to take the flak if you prefer not to. I think its that important. If you want to preserve your nice-guy reputation, well--I am used to sticking out like a blazing firebrand. Doesnt bother me. Not when i believe in something completely. And i believe in this.
so here's my rewrite again. tell me if you object to things in it. I want you to be happy. I like you, and i dont want to ruin that.
----------------------------janet

richard wrote me asking me to delete my post. this was my second draft answer to him. the first vanished from cache when i went to retrieve the speech.

i never intended to try to co opt or steal this speech as if it were my own . I brought it up top so it wouldnt go inactive so soon. In its original thread below, richard was so passive about doing anything else with it, I felt it deserved more than that. I thought i made it clear that i took his and prepared it for distributing thru the premie channels. I did not think i changed it radically or even worrisomely. i spell checked, grammar matched, and shortened some statements into crisper parsing. how much do any of you feel i altered its meaning, impact, feeling, intent, or any other characteristic it presented with??

i honestly want to know.

i am a lifelong proofreader and corrector. sorry. i find errors in published books that the editors missed!

richard, i felt it was more like removing the centuries of grime off the sistine chapel, than adding a tie dye and lava lamps. honest, i did.

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Date: Tues, Mar 20, 2001 at 18:36:26 (GMT)
From: Katie H.
Email: None
To: janet
Subject: Janet, thanks for this
Message:
Hi Janet -
I was a bit upset by your original post because you did a lot more than 'editing' Richard's speech. I'm sensitive to this because I do a lot of editing - and it's really only OK to make spelling/grammar/clarity changes - not OK to make additions or changes in content without checking them out with the original author. I also write, and I've taken my name as author off at least one thing where my co-authors changed it in ways I didn't agree with.

I'm also sensitive to this because of what ELK did/does to submissions by premies (read the stuff on Ex-Premie.Org about this!) under the name of 'editing'.

By the way, I am a ACOA (of two A's), and I do understand your wanting to add 12-step language. It means a lot to me too. However, there are people here who have been burned by some of the cult-like aspects of AA (there are 'church ladies' EVERYWHERE), and they might be quite turned off by that language.

Take care -
Katie H.

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Date: Tues, Mar 20, 2001 at 19:01:47 (GMT)
From: Richard
Email: None
To: Katie H.
Subject: thanks Katie H nt
Message:
nt
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Date: Tues, Mar 20, 2001 at 16:12:12 (GMT)
From: Richard
Email: None
To: janet
Subject: OK, OK here's a pic of us kissing to make up
Message:
NOT.

I was at first angry and dismayed that my 'speech' got co-opted and embellished but I'm also flattered Janet was inspired to take my writing and run with it. There are a lot of strong emotions running through this group. Writing it was a powerful experience but it achieved what I wanted personally and I was pleased with the response. A few more months in my writers-who've-been-edited therapy group and I should be good as new.

Richard

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Date: Tues, Mar 20, 2001 at 08:44:19 (GMT)
From: Pat Conlon
Email: None
To: janet
Subject: Honest and heartfelt once again, Janet
Message:
I get the feeling that you would be the kind of person who upset me a lot in real life but whom I would nevertheless love.
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Date: Mon, Mar 19, 2001 at 08:40:04 (GMT)
From: JHB
Email: None
To: janet
Subject: Janet, In view of Richard's feelings...
Message:
... perhaps you could ask the FA to delete your version, which IMO doesn't really add anything to Richard's heartfelt post.

John.

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Date: Mon, Mar 19, 2001 at 11:35:26 (GMT)
From: AJW
Email: None
To: JHB
Subject: All great artists steal
Message:
Hi John,

All great artists steal from each other. Some even blatantly repaint great works of other artists.

Great movies are remade.

Great songs re-recorded.

Richard should be happy. Imitation is the greatest form of flattery.

Anth who wanders lonely as a cloud.

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Date: Mon, Mar 19, 2001 at 14:58:28 (GMT)
From: JohnT
Email: None
To: AJW
Subject: All great artists steal - and JohnT too!
Message:
Well, I dunno, Anth, you gotta be careful, but in this case Janet acknowledged she was building on someone else's words so yes, it was a tribute. Richard could be flattered (unhappy, perhaps; but flattered).

Damnedest thing, though Janet, I've been thinking of plagiarising (oop! I mean consciously aborbing influences from... ) your stuff. What a coincidence. I thought about it and decided you wouldn't mind too much.

You see, I've been reading Walt Whitman (I thought he was awful at first, but I'm slowly learning to appreciate his style) and I thought a Whitman style poem about a certain Fat Fraud could be good. Then I thought the various rants (as one ranter to another, I mean that in the nicest possible way, of course) of Janet of Venice would provide plenty of material to draw on for that work.

Anyway, steal the idea if you like, Janet. It takes me months to write these things.

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Date: Tues, Mar 20, 2001 at 23:45:52 (GMT)
From: bill--Maybe John T,
Email: None
To: JohnT
Subject: but they are worth the time.....nt
Message:
asfdag
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Date: Mon, Mar 19, 2001 at 17:15:34 (GMT)
From: Richard
Email: None
To: all
Subject: Oh hell, it was only the Sistine Chapel Ceiling
Message:
The addition of a few gargoyles and lava lamps look quite nice really. Now maybe a nice tie-dye outfit for David.

grrrrrrrrrrr,

Postie-angelo

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Date: Mon, Mar 19, 2001 at 05:44:57 (GMT)
From: Richard
Email: post@rmi.net
To: FA
Subject: FA - could you please delete this thread?
Message:
It contains a post I feel very strongly about that has been edited and embellished. I'm flattered janet but prefer my simpler original version (with your spelling cx). The original is still active below.

Richard

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Date: Mon, Mar 19, 2001 at 13:25:39 (GMT)
From: Dermot
Email: None
To: FA
Subject: FA - could you please delete MY thread?
Message:
I mean the one 2 steps up from this thread in Joes excellent post/thread.

As a vain bastard , I thought I came across as pompous, condescending.....who the fuck am I to dispense certainty to anyone......premie or no premie......my own head needs sorting out , never mind anyone elses!

Nah I don't suppose you'll delete it.....but if you do I couldn't give a shit......and if you don't ....well I also couldn't give a shit about that

best regards.....Dermot

Ps Keep up the recent good work .....have you locked the scissors away only to be used in life threatening situations?

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Date: Mon, Mar 19, 2001 at 11:45:26 (GMT)
From: Sir Dave
Email: sirdavid12@hotmail.com
To: Richard
Subject: Well the original's here
Message:
Your original post is here Richard at What people think about Maharaji.

I think Janet meant well, after all she didn't claim it was all her own work.

I'll put some of Michael Donner's posts on the site when I get the time. It really is hard to keep track of all the posts these days - well actually, impossible.

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Date: Mon, Mar 19, 2001 at 06:29:46 (GMT)
From: Forum Adminstrator
Email: None
To: Richard
Subject: FA - could you please delete this thread?
Message:
Unfortunately Richard, plagiarism isn't considered grounds for deletion, so this time I will err on the side of free speech and let the post stand.

FA

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Date: Mon, Mar 19, 2001 at 05:57:11 (GMT)
From: Pat Conlon
Email: None
To: Richard
Subject: FA - I'll second that. Janet meant well but
Message:
I completely understand Richard's feelings on the subject.
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Date: Mon, Mar 19, 2001 at 06:00:18 (GMT)
From: Barry
Email: None
To: Pat Conlon
Subject: Hey you Irish bastard!(nt)
Message:
Hi Pat! What did you get up to for Saint Patties day?
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Date: Mon, Mar 19, 2001 at 03:29:48 (GMT)
From: G
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: 'synchronization'
Message:
The 'glossary' thread prompted me to look up the word 'synchronization'. Here's the definition:

synchronization

It looks like Rawat has seriously perverted the meaning of this word. All I see in the definition is a time element, things occuring at the same time, nothing about obeying the agya of 'the Master' or doing things 'his way'.

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Date: Mon, Mar 19, 2001 at 15:49:29 (GMT)
From: Brian
Email: brian@ex-premie.org
To: G
Subject: 'operating in unison'
Message:
I think that's the definition that EV would apply to their use of the word.

It's sad too, in my opinion. Rawat's view of his 'mission' is to take what is actually a world of diverse and unique individuals and to encourage them all to march in lock-step toward his personal goal of self-enrichment. Gather them all together in Amaroo and then have to pass only one hat that accepts only one currency - USD.

Maharaji is the Master. The Master tells you whether you can talk about your breath, when you can talk about your breath, and who is to hear the words that he alone controls in this world - the words you create with your own breath. Breath that, like the world you were born into, is the Master's to command.

Take all the different colors in the Master's palette and pour them together. How very black the Master's world is.

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Date: Mon, Mar 19, 2001 at 11:59:30 (GMT)
From: Sir Dave
Email: None
To: G
Subject: 'synchronization' - Pidgin English more like
Message:
Hasn't he just about taken a whole load of words from the English language and given them his own meanings. For instance, 'knowledge' does not mean practising three and a half techniques once a day. You don't 'experience' knowledge, you learn it or glean it and once you have learned it, you can pass it on to others.

His terminology about 'people getting knowledge' is ridiculous. and I've thought that for a long time. It's like Pidgin English.

'Did you get knowledge today?'

'No, I got knowledge yesterday.'

It's like saying, 'Hey Baas, you got trade fo' me brother?'

Which is what some of the prostitutes might say to Englishmen in the former Colonies.

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Date: Tues, Mar 20, 2001 at 04:36:42 (GMT)
From: Richard
Email: None
To: Sir Dave
Subject: Knowledge in London = cabbie education
Message:
Taking knowledge is what the prospective cabbies call learning every single street in London. Our UK buds pointed out a man on a motorbike with a huge book of maps on the handlebars. Apparently a very stressful several year process and no guarantee of a job. I saw a PBS documentary on this, too.

I was always curious how Londoners asked people if they wanted to 'take knowledge'. Did they have to explain GMJ wasn't a taxi cab company owner? Can any Brits answer this burning question.

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Date: Mon, Mar 19, 2001 at 11:55:05 (GMT)
From: AJW
Email: None
To: G
Subject: 'synchronization'
Message:
Hi G

In culttown, 'synchronisation' means synchronising your bankers order with Captain Rawats's bank account.

Anth who fell in a sink once.

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Date: Mon, Mar 19, 2001 at 11:19:44 (GMT)
From: SB
Email: None
To: G
Subject: And
Message:
the fact that he has requested synchronization from the premies for years, by using that word he shows that he is a cult leader!
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Date: Mon, Mar 19, 2001 at 11:00:19 (GMT)
From: Pat Conlon
Email: None
To: G
Subject: Why has no one posted a response to this?
Message:
Because we're allergic to being synchronized.
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Date: Mon, Mar 19, 2001 at 03:03:15 (GMT)
From: anon
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: Portland event update news 5pm:
Message:
3/18/01
'Portland event at Arlene Schnitzer Concert Hall -- it's 5 pm, an hour before the speaker is scheduled at the 6 pm event. Rain has been falling on and off throughout the afternoon. There are only about 20 people standing outside the front entrance of the hall on Broadway, waiting to get in. No listing about Maharaji or Elan Vital whatsoever appears on the marquee above the hall's main entrance. [a not-so secret event, or someone just doesn't want any publicity nowadays?] At the back entrance, there are 2 security people and no one is in line at all. Have been sitting at a coffee shop across from the hall's backstage entrance for awhile. There are middle-aged premies in suits with little badges at the next table. Overheard: gushy darshan story [he waved back to us from his hotel window; we were so excited I nearly wet my..., etc.], then seating was originally supposed to be odd-seating [every other seat], but now it's been changed in the balcony to random seating, encourage anyone in the upper balcony down into the lower balcony and fill in the seats, and everyone be in your seat by 5:40 pm. The coffeeshop is closing this moment, and the premie suits are leaving. Obvious security guys are scouring the entire block (one looks like Jack the Vancouver contactperson), a notorious LA premie blonde groupie oldtimer is loitering on the sidewalk next to the backstage entrance, a funky white Japanese subcompact is temporarily blocking the backstage loading ramp, plainsclothes cops are hanging out, and it would clearly be a waste of time for anyone to try get a decent pic of the Lard of the Universe, as his car pulls into the loading area, big doors close behind the car, and Lard gets out/in without direct observation. Lots of speaker security personnel for such an apparently poorly attended event.'
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Date: Mon, Mar 19, 2001 at 23:14:05 (GMT)
From: Richard
Email: None
To: anon
Subject: Just got my Portland event invitation in the mail
Message:
This is too much. I'm starting to wonder if someone lies to M so he doesn't know these mailings arrive all over North America AFTER the event is over. I would be more amazed if this was the only time this happened bit it isn't. The times I went to Long Beach - big International event - the mailing arrived a few days prior to the event date or right after I got home.
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Date: Tues, Mar 20, 2001 at 00:13:05 (GMT)
From: Francesca
Email: None
To: Richard
Subject: Me too! LOL
Message:
I got it the day before, in the late afternoon. I get it bulk mail because I haven't gone to a program in years, and haven't contributed anything since the 80s.

But even when I contributed sporadically they still didn't tell me about programs until it was too late. That was one of the things I addressed in my 'exit' letter to Haharaji. It historically has been a hallmark of EV. Only fanatics go to these things, who slavishly stay on the hot line or in the know. Those in the hinterland need not apply.

No, he never answered that letter, nor did any of his official letter answers. But I believe the last two letters I wrote I told them not to bother. If the big guy wasn't getting it, that was my answer right there.

--f

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Date: Tues, Mar 20, 2001 at 01:26:16 (GMT)
From: la-ex
Email: None
To: Francesca
Subject: Me three!LOL, but was that intentional or not?nt
Message:
nt
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Date: Mon, Mar 19, 2001 at 23:18:19 (GMT)
From: such
Email: None
To: Richard
Subject: u 2?! such blissful synchronization! (mt
Message:
mt
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Date: Tues, Mar 20, 2001 at 00:56:06 (GMT)
From: Pat and Chuck
Email: None
To: such
Subject: us too - NT
Message:
j
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Date: Mon, Mar 19, 2001 at 20:25:03 (GMT)
From: an old friend
Email: None
To: all
Subject: Went last night
Message:
I got there at six and showed my internet reservation printout pass number.(I had to register online but did not have to pay the suggested fee of $45.)There were people at every door and entrance and around tables of goods like videos and tapes that were now covered with cloth. Was too late to be seated downstairs with the ticket they handed me with a seat number, so went to the upper dress mezanine and took an available seat. The hall was large and beautiful...the old Paramount Theater, and mostly full.
Some people continued to arrive late and be led to a seat.

It started with videos...one to do with the upcoming opportunity in Amaroo. Maharaji spoke about an hour. Many disconnected references to the preciousness of life and breath, priorities, joy, etc. etc. etc.

Lots of cheering and applause at each charming joke or reference to himself as being Master or because he was told he shouldn't say that, since it wasn't politically correct, he refered to himself or Master as 'you know who' several times in the story he told about the devotees who recieved 4 seeds from you know who...and the rest of the story about what they did with them and what pleased you know who the best....

He spoke of being spontaneous and planning to stay that way... Of the future of events being for fun and satellite videos for the serious messages. That got lots of loud cheering and responses.

In order to come to the K review and program today, I would have had to wait in line for formal event registration or get a Smart card. I chose not to. I have no desire to go again. Whatever threads of nostalgic infatuation seem to be gone for good.

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Date: Mon, Mar 19, 2001 at 21:01:20 (GMT)
From: Richard
Email: None
To: an old friend
Subject: Went last night - thanks 'old friend' /nt
Message:
nt
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Date: Mon, Mar 19, 2001 at 20:35:21 (GMT)
From: Pat Conlon
Email: None
To: an old friend
Subject: More ''evolution''
Message:
You said: Lots of cheering and applause at each charming joke or reference to himself as being Master or because he was told he shouldn't say that, since it wasn't politically correct, he refered to himself or Master as 'you know who.'

This is proof that Rev Rawat does know what is being said here and he is ''evolving'' because of what he learns here. His spin doctors will continue to revise his image in response to our criticisms. This has been bothering me for a while now and has inhibited me from saying anything nice about ''Knowledge'' eventhough I still enjoy meditating.

I would not mind if he continued to be a successful preacher but he has built his success on the backs of thousands of people whom he has harmed and I personally will enjoy seeing him be held accountable.

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Date: Mon, Mar 19, 2001 at 23:12:22 (GMT)
From: Chuck Sprague
Email: bctanda@hotmail.com
To: All
Subject: It gives me the creeps...
Message:
When I first started looking at this site a few years ago, it seemed to me that M. began to actually address things that were said about him on EPO, indirectly. Sometimes he's denied things outright, (''I've NEVER said anyone would go to Hell for not practicing Knowledge'', he's said many times), to more vague references, to his ''critics'' who have simply ''misunderstood'' him.

I've been temped to talk at length about some things that were said in particular videos, that were big ''Drips'' for me, but I have help back, lest the videos are taken out of circulation or edited, or the critisizems used to edit future videos. I feel the failure of propagation in the west, and the failure to keep new premies interested, is largely due to M. himself. It concerns me that his spin doctors could use our critique of him to polish the image of him they are trying to market. All the videos and most if not all the broadcasts are edited, why help the editors do their job?

Some of the things M. says to the aspriants nowadays make me cringe. I realized I could never bring anyone I know to knowledge the way things are done now. The people I mix with are far too sensible. I hope he keeps saying things that make reasonable people cringe. I don't want to correct him, I think he doing a fine job of shitting in his own nest.

- Chuck, who isn't paid to offer spin control advice.

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Date: Mon, Mar 19, 2001 at 22:06:57 (GMT)
From: old friend
Email: None
To: Pat Conlon
Subject: More ''evolution''
Message:
He also made a joking comment about wanting to see the faces of the people who would be editing the videos!

There were some 'profound' sounding statements about bhakti...something like, there being no real translation from hindi because it is not just devotion, which implies obedience, but a devotion which has complete freedom, 'FREEDOM!'; references to Nanak; a statement...I'll try to remember it right: Without affection there cannot be recognition, without recognition there cannot be love, without love there cannot be truth (or was it truth??? not sure!)

He also said he didn't come to teach and preach...but of course he did just that.

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Date: Mon, Mar 19, 2001 at 23:14:44 (GMT)
From: suchabanana
Email: None
To: old friends/bookends
Subject: Guess our satsang has inspired da Karma Chameleon!
Message:
Karma Chameleon's latest discourse sounds like astute 'revisionism' and Darwinian adaptation: now it's devotion with 'Freedom' [after 30 years -- yeah,right!], and the p.c. Master (sshhh), I mean 'you know who.' [cute assessment of the present cult-think: a kinder and gentler p.c. guru cult -- sounds vaguely familiar, somehow... Hey, Chameleon, you just an imitator; get your own material, dude!]

I do not come to bury Caesar... Maybe we should just send the Karma Chameleon to obedience school for further instruction and regrooving. Where's the leather mistress with the whips? ...Oh well, how about the shorn flagellants with the hairshirts, then?

The credo of devotees (er, students) enraptured and waiting for the holy revisionist words at the feet of 'you know who':

'I do not mind that gold is often tinsel,
And if you please, I'd rather not be told.
It's thinking it is gold that makes it precious
And thinking it is precious makes it gold.'

...Confusing the self-effulgent Light with the flatulent wet match -- Karma Chameleon, the Rod McKuen of gurus.

Peace and lentils,

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Date: Tues, Mar 20, 2001 at 07:40:29 (GMT)
From: old friend
Email: None
To: suchabanana
Subject: Is this old or an original verse?More about event
Message:
'I do not mind that gold is often tinsel,
And if you please, I'd rather not be told.
It's thinking it is gold that makes it precious
And thinking it is precious makes it gold.'

Whatever it is, I like it! Very approbo.

I am going a little nuts here,(well I have always been...maybe that's why I see clearly now) but for what it is worth:Wake up premies: The emperor has no clothes!

Suspend disbelief and just remember your breath, right? It is precious, so-o-o precious. These words kept coming to me today about M: shameless self-grandisement. Enormous delusional self-perception. Humongous ego, so big it can hold all of you inside it, captive like the caged bird. Harness the breath and ancient techniques for peaceful feelings from focusing on them and call it the proof of the truth of the one who revealed it to you. It is not proof! Your feelings are not truth.

Remember this one: 'The sun does not know darkness' He said that last night, too. It was just sort of interpersed into the rest of the stuff he said...very hard to find or follow a cohesive line of thought because there really wasn't one. Maybe saying that is like saying 'You see, I am the sun, obviously, 'you know who', so I cannot see anything that is dark...like all those complaints and stuff you might hear about me, so I cannot ever mention those things publicly because I can never see them! You see??? An argument my premie friend to me tonight was a variation of one I've heard before (MAYBE EVEN SPOKE MYSELF!)if you need a doctor and the doctor who can give you the medicine you need doesn't fit your concept of how he should look or be or act, are you going to reject him or judge him, or are you going to take the medicine and thank him? He said how do you know he isn't the Master? And what harm does it cause if he isn't? I think many premies are like this. They like the meditation, appreciate that M showed it to them, enjoy seeing him from time to time and don't know or don't care what anyone says.

Maharaji was singing to the choir and no one there cares if he sings off key, except for at least me! And fellow ex's. Although, there was a woman a few seats ahead who was taking notes and left before he finished speaking. He also talked about trends, like the trend to all be buddhas, and that the breath has never been trendy; he joked about coffee and told about how he started drinking coffee and now has to carry his own coffee and coffee maker around with him; about how you won't get any email if you don't turn the computer on...and on and on. Oh yeah, he told about the event he had recently in India and how wonderful it was when (I forgot the number) but maybe 7000 premies got to have darshan including a person who was dying brought on a stretcher to see him one last time. Applause, applause.

I could not go back today. I found out from a friend that the knowledge review was all on video, the afternoon event was more videos and M did not reappear even 'though last night he alluded to the possibility he would do something spontaneous that wasn't in the schedule. Just another carrot. This event was an advertisement to come play 'under the sun, moon and stars' with him in Amaroo!

Thanks for being here. I need to get this stuff out. I can't stay anon...I have chickens and llamas and cats, and God save me: premie friends!!!! Next time I go to a program...if there is a next time: I want Gerry and Jim on either side!!! Where were you boys?

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Date: Tues, Mar 20, 2001 at 23:25:35 (GMT)
From: Katie H
Email: None
To: old friend
Subject: Oops, busted!
Message:
You're really outing yourself here (but that's OK, I think!) Good to see you here, and, again, good to read your report of the program.
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Date: Tues, Mar 20, 2001 at 08:30:03 (GMT)
From: Pat Conlon
Email: None
To: old friend
Subject: Thanks, old friend, for another excellent report
Message:
front the front lines. I realized I was not cut out to be a mole either. A couple of anonymice have said they remain so in order to be spies. I guess I don't have either the cloak and dagger personality or else I really couldn't be bothered to waste my time. I'm sure glad you got to go and further demystify the urug. Yep, he's a Hindu televangelist.
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Date: Tues, Mar 20, 2001 at 05:28:41 (GMT)
From: Francesca
Email: None
To: suchabanana
Subject: Touche! The Rod McKuen of gurus!!!!
Message:
Right own!

I also think that if he's revising things based on this Form V don't worry honeys! I would give him an 'F' folks, and that stands for many things, including you FLUNKED, you LOOSER!

* Being cute and not coming out and saying he's the master -- we've already ACCUSED him of that. It's transparent, phony and so poorly disguished as to be ludicrous, and he's still doing it.
* Twisting around concepts until you'd need a torque wrench to even figure out what might have been twisted around; well we've already accused him of that and he's still doing it.
*Being a drunken sot that doesn't meditate but does a lot of talking, cooing, screaming and preaching -- we've already accused him of that, and he's still doing it.

Ah yes!

$800: given to me by each person stupid enough to pay for the right to pay even some more to sweat in a tent with no air conditioning in the Australian outback.

$10 million: that they also gave me for my yacht!

Being called the Rod McKuen of Gurus: Priceless!

There's some things you can't buy, but as long as you put cash on the barrelhead, pucker up and breathe, you can use your Master Card.

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Date: Mon, Mar 19, 2001 at 23:29:49 (GMT)
From: Pat formerly Thelma
Email: None
To: suchabanana
Subject: Mahatma Such Ji - you are such a banana - split
Message:
my sides laughing at your little koans. Yes, this is the only place that satsang (company of truth) is happening and it really makes me not want to say too much if it empowers the old Karma Chameleon.
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Date: Tues, Mar 20, 2001 at 05:31:18 (GMT)
From: Francesca
Email: None
To: Pat formerly Thelma
Subject: Oh no, I thought the same thing tonight
Message:
This is like the old days of satsang but far better, because we don't have to stay on an agreed upon cult-like topic!

Shhhhssssh. People may leave the forum in droves!

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Date: Tues, Mar 20, 2001 at 08:34:08 (GMT)
From: Pat Conlon
Email: None
To: Francesca
Subject: We're so damned synchronized, Francesca NT
Message:
k
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Date: Tues, Mar 20, 2001 at 00:35:58 (GMT)
From: SuchaBanana
Email: None
To: Pat formerly Thelma
Subject: i m just a simple koan-head:Koanan the Bananagram!
Message:
speaking of banana splits:

Most unwise to make banana split - reduces wit by half.

You know, my last partner could not even bake my apple pie... but (s)he sure could make my banana cream...

[ha ha, p.c.-revised old swami joke - actually first heard from Soupy Sales, the same comedian who started out professionally with a live Saturday kiddie show on Detroit television - Lots of pie-throwing every week - which naturally gave teen reporter Pat Halley the idea to throw a cream pie in the face of the young Karma Chameleon at the city hall].

Karma karma karma karma karma cha-me-le-on...

Peace and lentils,

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Date: Mon, Mar 19, 2001 at 22:22:59 (GMT)
From: Katie Darling
Email: darlingwave@aol.com
To: old friend
Subject: More ''evolution''
Message:
So, was it full? Our spies have gotten us all interested, and then apparently got taken out by the other side.

Are you the 'old friend' who posted anonymously (as An Old Friend) to me years ago on this forum?

If so, wanna e-mail me?

love Katie Darling

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Date: Mon, Mar 19, 2001 at 22:33:16 (GMT)
From: old friend
Email: None
To: Katie Darling
Subject: More ''evolution''
Message:
Shit I can never stay anon for long...no really I do not remember! I guess if I want to report back here occasionally, it would be better to be anon. Don't you think? I am an old Portland resident. Please do not try to out me. Are you the Katie with Brian? I forgot.
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Date: Tues, Mar 20, 2001 at 19:41:08 (GMT)
From: Katie H.
Email: None
To: old friend
Subject: Katie Haering and Katie Darling
Message:
Hi, old friend -
I am Katie Haering (not Katie Darling) - a.k.a. Katie H. to avoid confusion and I am the one who is with Brian :). If we have corresponded off the site, I don't recall who you are, but even if I did, I wouldn't out you, and I KNOW Katie Darling wouldn't out you either.

BTW, it's fine with me if you remain anon - some of my best friends here post anonymously. And thanks for the posts about the Portland program.

Take care,
Katie H.

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Date: Mon, Mar 19, 2001 at 22:19:43 (GMT)
From: Pat Conlon
Email: None
To: old friend
Subject: More ''evolution'' - Bhakti Juju! THIS IS SCARY!!!
Message:
You said: ''There were some 'profound' sounding statements about bhakti...something like, there being no real translation from hindi because it is not just devotion, which implies obedience, but a devotion which has complete freedom,
'FREEDOM!'; references to Nanak; a statement...I'll try to remember it right: Without affection there cannot be recognition, without recognition there cannot be love, without love there cannot be truth (or was it truth??? not sure!)''

Thanks old friend. Rawat has seldom before used the word bhakti. Sounds like he has been reading about my demystification of bhakti juju and then studying the Hindu writings about it because that is it in a nutshell.

You canot see the guru as god unless there is AFFECTION.

Stop plagiarizing me Rev Rawat. Just kidding. I doubt if he reads here anyway but his spin doctors do and have no doubt told him that he better start explaining things to the pewks as some exes are onto his little game.

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Date: Mon, Mar 19, 2001 at 22:44:31 (GMT)
From: olf friend again
Email: None
To: Pat Conlon
Subject: Yeah it felt a bit scary going there
Message:
and while it was OK because I got there just in time for the program for which I sat alone and rather anonymously. Then I ran into an old friend I hadn't seen in about 14 years and we talked awhile. Then I left after being too late to sign up for anything else, and I didn't run into anyone else! And now when I think about going back...it still feels uncomfortable. Guess I'm not cut out to be a mole or spy!

It was an almost full house: lots of slightly balding heads and also many young people. I estimate the there were about 2 to 3 thousand but I'm not sure how many fit in the place.

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Date: Tues, Mar 20, 2001 at 05:51:49 (GMT)
From: Francesca
Email: None
To: olf friend again
Subject: I know I could not be a mole because ...
Message:
I can't stand to listen to him. I went to a program in 1992. I hope, NEVER AGAIN. Besides, too many people know me. That's why I get for being a 2nd string community songbird. ==f

PS it ain't worth it. It will turn my brain to cheese.

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Date: Tues, Mar 20, 2001 at 08:36:55 (GMT)
From: Pat Conlon
Email: None
To: Francesca
Subject: Is this synchronization or synchronicity, Fran?
Message:
or simply that great minds think alike. What's the emotikon for looking pleased as punch?
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Date: Tues, Mar 20, 2001 at 14:35:10 (GMT)
From: Francesca
Email: None
To: Pat Conlon
Subject: It's the cheese!
Message:
Maybe our old fart brains have turned to cheese!
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Date: Mon, Mar 19, 2001 at 04:01:23 (GMT)
From: Katie H.
Email: None
To: anon
Subject: great writing - very atmospheric!
Message:
Would love to hear further reports if possible. Did you go?
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Date: Mon, Mar 19, 2001 at 03:51:42 (GMT)
From: donner
Email: None
To: f.a.
Subject: Portland event
Message:
hi whoever you are, can we get reliable info about the portland program attendance...is it tonite?
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Date: Mon, Mar 19, 2001 at 05:50:47 (GMT)
From: anon
Email: None
To: donner
Subject: attendance tonight:Not bang,but whimper...+have Qs
Message:
Dear donner,

didn't go inside -- left that to some other curious people. will ask them this week, however. also, Roger Drek flew up to Portland, too, this weekend.

VERY IMPORTANT - bringing something to closure for many people after 28 years:
There are some serious questions about the timeline and m.'s knowledge of/involvement in: 1) the conspiracy to murder reporter Pat Halley in August '73, and 2) the subsequent felony conspiracy he personally authorized to get the fugitives out of the US before they could be apprehended by the law.

It appears m pretended to disavow any impending revenge or assassination, on the one hand, but encouraged it on the other hand through his outright displays of anger [after the pie-throwing incident at the Detroit City Hall], his verbal asides to the mahatmas and DLM honchos, and the fact that he made no effort whatsoever to prevent the 'hit', even though he was apparently aware beforehand [what did he know, when, and what did he do, etc.?].

Then, after the murder attempt barely failed, you recently related here that m. ordered you to Detroit to 'get Fakiranand out of the country' -- thereby committing a criminal felony and engaging others in criminal racketeering -- just like the Mafia's Godfather. What do you know about Fakiranand and Fletcher's involvement/arrangements, r.e. how they set it up, who paid for their plane tickets to Detroit [and later out of the country], where they [and m.] were when m. told you to go to Detroit [was this the same day as the 'hit' , or the next day, etc.?]

Since statutes of limitations have clearly expired and there was a $10,000 settlement later paid to Pat, anyway, could you now Please tell everyone here EVERYTHING you know and can possibly remember about the facts/details/those involved in the 1) assassination attempt and the 2) subsequent flight from justice conspiracies, what you heard/or were told/was said, Witnessed, what you/they did, what Happened, the Logistics: in a Factual Chronological Sequence -- in Denver, then in Detroit, then Chicago, etc. and right afterwards organizationally [DLM spin-doctoring, settlement] r.e. this situation?

Other participants, witnesses you are aware of, and who else besides Fakiranand and Fletcher, who else in the car to Chicago, + you mentioned Rajeshwar's and other mahatmas' involvement? [thought he was once a judge, too!], etc.

Also, during the last phone calls between Denver and the Detroit ashram while Fakiranand was still there, some said you were going up and down the stairs relaying info to Fakiranand and someone else waiting in the car outside in front, and that one of the last phone calls [if not the last] before you left in the car for Chicago was a conversation with maharaji (according to Richard Royal, ashram general secretary, as related that night to other premies). What was Really going on?

Been wondering (along with others) for 28 years... Your indepth thoughtful response will also help clarify this subject in regard to the related epo site info already posted about the very serious m-Fakiranand-Halley matter.

Also, even believing that m might be the Lard of the Universe at that time, didn't you question his agya to commit a felony and to engage you and others in a criminal felony [on top of the murder attempt], and didn't you have any doubts, or misapprehensions? Why didn't you simply refuse the Godfather's assignment or immediately contact the police? Were you fearful, brainwashed to justify it somehow, or was this just more heavy business for the Lard? It frankly seems, in retrospect, that he deliberately selected people as his close subordinates who would do just about anything for him, unquestioningly, and without remorse or critical thinking...

Some of the former premie 'pawns' innocently and unwittingly involved in related 'service' in these same matters have expressed how they literally Agonized for years over the fact that they were 'used' by the DLM and/or ashram honchos to somehow assist the perpetrators, and that they didn't realize the ramifications of what was even happening until later; they were simply lied to by the premies in authority. Some DLM and Detroit ashram honchos obviously knew all along and didn't tell them, as these 'pawns' were ordered about on important organizational business, getting gas, food, reservations, guarding telephones from eavesdroppers, keeping Fakiranand away from the other inquisitive premies, etc.

For their sakes, please...

best wishes

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Date: Mon, Mar 19, 2001 at 19:08:05 (GMT)
From: Marianne
Email: None
To: anon
Subject: Did eDrek go inside?
Message:
Was TED there?

Thanks for this report. Great work observing the goings on.

Marianne

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Date: Mon, Mar 19, 2001 at 20:06:56 (GMT)
From: Pauline Premie
Email: None
To: Marianne
Subject: Did eDrek go inside?
Message:
I doubt very much that Roger eDrek would go inside. I mean, if he did start going inside and getting in touch with his breath, he wouldn't be such a negative, troubled, inflexible person, like that 'Joe' person, and might be able to have THAT UNDERSTANDING of THAT gift, and actually be inspired to breathe by listening to what Maharaji hast to say.
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Date: Mon, Mar 19, 2001 at 03:09:13 (GMT)
From: Pat Conlon
Email: None
To: anon
Subject: and now back to the Jim in the newsroom at EPO
Message:
Great report from the front line anon. Thanks.
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Date: Mon, Mar 19, 2001 at 08:13:20 (GMT)
From: Cw
Email: None
To: Pat Conlon
Subject: Sure smells like Heller.....
Message:
Are you for real Heller?
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Date: Mon, Mar 19, 2001 at 15:41:50 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Cw
Subject: Cat's like the Monty Python 'Holy Grail' knight
Message:
You know the guy who keeps getting his limbs cut off and keeps daring the other guy to even THINK of taking a go at him? Eventually he's just an arm-less, leg-less stump but he can't stop daring his opponent. Well, everyone here must know the scene. Tell me that's not Cat.
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Date: Mon, Mar 19, 2001 at 18:16:43 (GMT)
From: Nigel
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: 'Tis merely a flesh wound...'
Message:
You've used the word 'stump' twice now today, Jim. No wonder cat pinches your words for his vocabulary when you make it so easy for him to understand their context.
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Date: Mon, Mar 19, 2001 at 11:02:20 (GMT)
From: AJW
Email: None
To: Cw
Subject: Panic Stations.
Message:
Cat,

What's happening man? Captain Rawat can't even fill a tatty little hall in Oregon, there's panic and civil war in Amaroo?

I wonder if the Cognac consumption is rising at the same rate the attendences are falling? He hates half-empty halls you know- takes it as a personal insult.

Or is it all just a lila Cat? Once the monmats like me have been cleared out the way, the Golden Age will come rolling right in?

Anth laughing all the way to the nuthouse.

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Date: Mon, Mar 19, 2001 at 13:44:37 (GMT)
From: CW
Email: None
To: AJW
Subject: A Fool sees what he believes
Message:
Anth the publicity machine.In your dreams..............
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Date: Mon, Mar 19, 2001 at 17:27:05 (GMT)
From: AJW
Email: None
To: CW
Subject: I agree with you Cat.
Message:
A fool sees what he believes.

I used to see this chubby Indian bloke, dressed up like Santa Clause in a gold papier-mache crown, smelling of cognac, and I believed he'd created the Universe.

Wasn't I a prat Cat?

Anth who won't be appearing in Amaroo this year due to a computer error.

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Date: Mon, Mar 19, 2001 at 13:53:22 (GMT)
From: Marianne
Email: None
To: CW
Subject: So true, Cat. An epiphany? nt
Message:
xxxx
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Date: Mon, Mar 19, 2001 at 13:57:20 (GMT)
From: CW
Email: None
To: Marianne
Subject: So true, Cat. An epiphany? nt
Message:
You guys;I'm happy enough with what is
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Date: Mon, Mar 19, 2001 at 14:18:11 (GMT)
From: JohnT
Email: None
To: CW
Subject: Cat lies like a cheap rug ...
Message:
... badly.

Very badly, indeed.

You are happy with what is, are you Cat? So you changed a cult to change the world... How come??

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Date: Mon, Mar 19, 2001 at 11:25:01 (GMT)
From: Pat Conlon
Email: None
To: AJW
Subject: Panic Stations. The real Millennium
Message:
You said: ''Once the monmats like me have been cleared out the way, the Golden Age will come rolling right in?''

I beg to differ. Once the manmuts all get together for Latvian Nights in the gardens of good and evil - there will be whole lotta shaking going on.

Foe of snakes and friend of the little people.

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Date: Mon, Mar 19, 2001 at 01:48:08 (GMT)
From: Patrick (formerly Anon)
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: My turn for 'then and now' I suppose.
Message:
Hi everyone,

Since there seems to be some interest and amusement at seeing 'then and now' pictures of us all, I finally give in and invite you to laugh at me too!

Some of you guys at 'Latvian Night' (notably Hamzen and TG) wanted to hear some of my music. I've just put a bunch of MP3's up on my site so you can take a listen if you want. They are 128k, 44.1 khz, joint-stereo files, so they're not so small - mostly about 2.5 MB's. Fun if you have a reasonably fast connection. Mikus Finchus won't have any problem with his T1 connection.

Mike I have put a bigger demo QuickTime Movie of my latest
3D rendered film 'Samadhi' up there too.

So here's the link:

This
was me just before I heard about Maharaji in 1973


Love Patrick Wilson (formerly Anon)

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Date: Mon, Mar 19, 2001 at 03:08:58 (GMT)
From: Bin Liner
Email: None
To: Patrick (formerly Anon)
Subject: Why did you have a hole in your
Message:

shoe at the age of 16 ?

You certainly didn't seem to be a deadbeat at Latvian night.

I can't get over the improvement : it couldn't be down to your notoriously long involvement with the noted Fakir rawat could it ?

Keep well .

I haven't got the tek to put my mugshot up , & I wouldn't anyway .

No California shirtlifter is going to railroad me into exposing myself in public .

Love Pat Dorrity

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Date: Mon, Mar 19, 2001 at 03:11:05 (GMT)
From: Pat Conlon
Email: None
To: Bin Liner
Subject: California shirtlifter?
Message:
Oh go on Bin. I'll show you mine if you show me yours.
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Date: Mon, Mar 19, 2001 at 02:04:12 (GMT)
From: la-ex
Email: None
To: Patrick (formerly Anon)
Subject: Then=Donovan.Now=Phil Collins. Pretty Wife nt
Message:
nt
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Date: Mon, Mar 19, 2001 at 02:24:56 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: la-ex
Subject: Wife nothing. Does your mom still look like that?
Message:
Always a treat to see your site, Patrick. Just watched Samadhi which was really well done. What happened to the estate? Let's have a big Latvian festival there or something. We can all bring laptops and chat away for days with each other.
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Date: Mon, Mar 19, 2001 at 04:55:11 (GMT)
From: bill
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: anon,
Message:
terrific site Anon, I agree with Jim about your mom.
I love your 16 year old photo. I didnt look at how you look at this age as I already have a distinguished image of you that no photo cold capture.

Your posts for years have been a real help to me and others.
Thanks again.

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Date: Mon, Mar 19, 2001 at 04:56:12 (GMT)
From: bill
Email: None
To: bill
Subject: 'could' not 'cold'.....nt
Message:
adfh
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Date: Mon, Mar 19, 2001 at 02:15:29 (GMT)
From: moldy warp
Email: None
To: la-ex
Subject: Donovan - just wot I was going to say nt
Message:
X
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Date: Mon, Mar 19, 2001 at 02:04:06 (GMT)
From: Richard
Email: None
To: Patrick (formerly Anon)
Subject: Outrageous site Patrick/anon
Message:
Got lost in there for a few weeks actually. I especially like the way ganga smoke comes out of speakers to accompany the animation and music.
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Date: Mon, Mar 19, 2001 at 01:51:52 (GMT)
From: Pat Conlon
Email: None
To: Patrick (formerly Anon)
Subject: If you had a pic of you in a second hand suit and
Message:
short hair from the Palace of Peace days, I'd recognize you. For one minute there it startled me because it looks so much like a pic of me I have getting high in Epping Forest circa 1972.
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Date: Tues, Mar 20, 2001 at 03:21:29 (GMT)
From: Patrick Wilson
Email: patrick@patrickwilson.com
To: Pat Conlon
Subject: that generated some hits!
Message:
OK guys thanks for the responses:

especially like the way ganga smoke comes out of speakers to accompany the animation and music.

I gave up smoking a while ago. It must be coming from your end Richard.

Jim: the country estate got sold for a pittance in 1965. The money was used (I imagine) to send me and my bro' to school. Shame but times change. Thanks for your mp3. It's cool. ..Chuckle. My mum is 80 and seems is very young at heart and looks younger too. My dad was a lucky guy, he was married to a pretty lady 30 years his junior.
I am lucky too - my wife's a gem.

Pat C, It's weird but I don't seem to have any photos from those early premie days -I spent ages trying to find that one of me with long hair. I probably would remember you too. I think I was pretty unnoticable back then -being so humble and shy an' all.

Bill: thanks -I have a fond mental image of you but I'd like to meet you. I'm sure you look different than I picture you but that's fine! You're right I look weird now - I'm officially old . It's not really the real me being old!

Interestingly, posting my URL generated over 110 hits in 24 hours. That tells me that there are quite a few people surfing through here.

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Date: Tues, Mar 20, 2001 at 23:40:18 (GMT)
From: bill--Those are high hit
Email: None
To: Patrick Wilson
Subject: #'s your right. Wonder if m is one of them!..nt
Message:
dghd
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Date: Tues, Mar 20, 2001 at 04:08:12 (GMT)
From: Richard
Email: None
To: Patrick Wilson
Subject: website hits = mine went way up too
Message:
Patrick,

Your increased hits made me go hmmmmm. So I checked the stats on my site where the pages I've been uploading are stored. Visits for a typical day to my site is maybe 5 or 6 (hey It's not Amazon.com). On the day I posted my then/now photos and the next 3 days with the GetSmart cards, the unique visits went to 134 - 118 - 198 - 85. So this shows about the same number of visits as you. Interesting. I'll check tomorrow since I put up the Krishna crown page today.

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Date: Mon, Mar 19, 2001 at 00:06:59 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: Pick one
Message:
>Tweedledum:

'His father passed away in 19th July 1966, bequeathing his mission and unfinished work to his eldest son. When the time came, young Maharaj Ji took command with his characteristic zeal and efficiency, dedicating himself to fulfilling his father's dreams. He has never deviated from the ideals and path taught by Shri Hans Ji Maharaj, no matter what the cost. His integrity and clarity of vision, his noble character, self-discipline and patient effort have earned him the respect of all sections of society.'

or:

>Tweedledee:

'This idyllic childhood came to a sudden end however when his father died in 1966. Suddenly the eight year old child was faced with the task of stepping into his father's shoes. It is not a given that the new master emerges from the previous master’s family. Indeed from the tradition that Shri Hans Ji Maharaj came, this is the only time when it has stayed in the family.

However the circumstances surrounding how the young Sant-ji became Maharaji are curious. Those close to him at the time said that he had always behaved with a confidence and sense that he was to be the next master, and his father had made it known that it would be his destiny to take this teaching around the world. However his succession was not accepted by some of the leaders of what was now a large and widely recognized organization.

On the day after the funeral, a large crowd waited in the grounds of Prem Nagar ashram for an announcement to be made on who should be the next master. Meeting in a small room— a meeting from which Maharaji was excluded on grounds of youth— the key people could not make a decision. Meanwhile, the young Maharaji went out to reassure the people who had gathered to mourn their master’s death. This speech apparently moved the people who heard it to tears. In it Maharaji said there should be no weeping, for what the master taught was always with them, and that he for one was ready to take Knowledge forward. And thus the decision was made, not through discussion but through the genuine feeling that Maharaji had evoked in the people present.'

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Date: Mon, Mar 19, 2001 at 00:26:12 (GMT)
From: Thelma
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Neither Tweedledum nor Tweedledee
Message:
I prefer tweed suits and strings of pearls.

I emailed you.

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Date: Mon, Mar 19, 2001 at 00:15:04 (GMT)
From: JHB
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Neither
Message:
Why I should I believe either of these? Were you there? Was anyone here there? Let's face it, it's probably all bollocks.

John the lumberjack.

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Date: Mon, Mar 19, 2001 at 00:21:43 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: JHB
Subject: Y not write some for Bhole Ji and Raja Ji too?
Message:
How rude that only two of the brothers get to have ridiculous hagiographies. What about Bhole Ji and Raja Ji? Can't they play?

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Date: Mon, Mar 19, 2001 at 00:54:29 (GMT)
From: Mata Ji
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Hey heller, what am I, chopped liver? nt
Message:
nt
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Date: Mon, Mar 19, 2001 at 07:31:14 (GMT)
From: such
Email: None
To: Mata Ji
Subject: Lighten up,Mata baby!You look a bit ashen faced(mt
Message:
mt
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Date: Mon, Mar 19, 2001 at 01:42:57 (GMT)
From: Brian Smith
Email: None
To: Mata Ji
Subject: No Mata Ji, you are just dead, circa 1991 remember
Message:
November 25th 1991 you officially left your body
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Date: Mon, Mar 19, 2001 at 01:45:12 (GMT)
From: Mata Ji
Email: None
To: Brian Smith
Subject: Sorry. I thought this was the astral plane...nt
Message:
nt
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Date: Mon, Mar 19, 2001 at 01:49:11 (GMT)
From: Brian Smith
Email: None
To: Mata Ji
Subject: No Mata Ji , this is the internet, Now go back to
Message:
the light, we can't have dead people out here mucking about
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Date: Mon, Mar 19, 2001 at 02:06:37 (GMT)
From: Mata Ji
Email: None
To: Brian Smith
Subject: I see Dead Satgurus They don't know they're deadnt
Message:
nt
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Date: Mon, Mar 19, 2001 at 07:29:55 (GMT)
From: Bohle Ji
Email: None
To: Mata Ji
Subject: Mata Ji, do you know where your kids are? (nt)
Message:
nt
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Date: Mon, Mar 19, 2001 at 02:15:47 (GMT)
From: janet
Email: None
To: Mata Ji and Hans
Subject: can't you come kick prempal's fat butt? nt
Message:
please?
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Date: Mon, Mar 19, 2001 at 00:58:43 (GMT)
From: JHB
Email: None
To: Mata Ji
Subject: Hey heller, what am I, chopped liver?
Message:
Not yet, as far as I know. But what do you think about your little venture to the west?

John the never saw the Holy Mother in the flesh.

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Date: Mon, Mar 19, 2001 at 01:00:52 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: JHB
Subject: Oh, John, you don't know what you missed
Message:
Her skin was golden and her frown was deeper than a million black holes. I must say that, with respect to my ashram vows, I never once had sexual fantasies about her.
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Date: Mon, Mar 19, 2001 at 00:52:27 (GMT)
From: janet
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: theyre all welfare cheats anyway....nt
Message:
nt
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Date: Mon, Mar 19, 2001 at 00:04:31 (GMT)
From: Moldy Warp
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: M and us travel to Hans Jayanti 77!!!
Message:
What Michael wrote about Hans Jayanti 77 so affected me that I wanted to bring it, and my reply up to the top, cos the posts are moving so fast. The thing that gets me about below is how not-surrendered Lard was compared to us premies doing our sincerest best to realise K and surrender our 'minds'. (our 'minds'as in premie-speak being the bit of us that wanted to be somewhere more comfortable)

Michael Dettmers wrote:
The idea for securing and converting a large jet into a flying residence for him and his family was Maharaji’s. Who else would come up with such an idea? He had seen world leaders disembark their private L1011’s, and DC10’s on TV and thought, “Why not me?”
Let me give you a little additional background for this decision. In November 1977, Maharaji held an international Hans Jayanti festival in Rome. The person who was tasked with securing a chartered aircraft to transport M and his family encountered some last minute snags, and the deal fell through. Consequently, M et. al. were forced to travel First Class on SAS Airways from LA to Denmark. At the time, M had two very young children, Wadi and Hansi. One or both of them cried throughout most of the flight. Several of the First Class passengers complained about the noise. Maharaji, who was now quite drunk and needed to pee, was very uncomfortable using the public head. I distinctly remember him coming to my seat and saying, “This is the worst experience I have ever had in my life.” He wasn’t exactly blaming me for the situation, but he was making it clear that it was my job to see that he never had to fly commercial airlines again. To complete this journey, we managed to charter a Folker jet for the trip from Denmark to Rome.
While in Rome, I took charge of securing a charter aircraft from Rome to … (I can’t remember if he went home to Malibu, or if he headed for London). In any case, the chartered aircraft lost an engine shortly after takeoff. The plane had to circle Rome while dumping fuel before making an emergency landing back in Rome. That did it. Maharaji made it absolutely clear that I had to secure him a plane that could accommodate him, his family and his staff and that it had to be a plane that was impeccably maintained by his people. No more charters.
During this period, Maharaji owned a twin-engine Cessna aircraft, which he used for personal recreation -vacations to the Bahamas and such. Following the Rome fiasco, he charged his co-pilot with the task of finding a suitable aircraft. The result was the used Boeing 707, one of the first Pan Am 707’s in service, and now comfortably retired on an airfield in Dublin, Ireland. I was in M’s office in Malibu when he received a call from his co-pilot enthusiastically proclaiming that he had found the “diamond in the rough” aircraft that was just perfect for Maharaji. Maharaji poured us each another drink and I was dispatched to Ireland with Raja Ji to consummate the deal.
Michael

Moldy replied:
God, Michael, thanks for that post! That brought back some memories for me. Hans Jayanti Rome 77 was my honeymoon (yes, only on this site could I admit this!). A whole bunch of us travelled from Newcastle-upon-Tyne, England, to Rome on a double-decker bus with metal-backed seats!-sleeping (or rather, failing to) upright. There were lots of small kids on that bus. Someone's baby caught a virus (or some sort of serious bug -can't remember what) and nearly died. The bus hit a bridge at a border stopping, narrowly avoiding maiming the adults and kids upstairs in the front seats. Kids cried a lot (as they would stuck on a bus for 3 days!).But we generally tried to keep our spirits up and surrender our 'minds' (which were freaking out a bit!)But the thing about your post that gets me even more than god-in-a-bod's transport demands, is that he was getting pissed. And there's us, seriously deprived of sleep and comfort ( not to mention sanity), worshipping him as Krishna!

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Date: Mon, Mar 19, 2001 at 04:55:16 (GMT)
From: Joy
Email: None
To: Moldy Warp
Subject: What a Contrast!
Message:
That is a very moving tale, Moldy. The contrast could not be greater. I rode from Denver to New York (and back) for that 'festival' in the back seat of a Volkswagen (nonstop, no hotel/sleep breaks). Let's see M try that!

What a spoiled brat he is. Imagine, First Class not being good enough for him. Who the hell does he think he is, God or something?

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Date: Mon, Mar 19, 2001 at 00:38:44 (GMT)
From: Connie
Email: None
To: Moldy Warp
Subject: M and us travel to Hans Jayanti 77!!!
Message:
yep, me too, took a long plane flight (28 hrs?), one nights sleep, then from London to Rome on bus - 2 days?. Arrived late at night, just in time to get a few hours sleep before it started.

Remember how we had to wait hours for him to come. That 3 day program never ended till after midnight. Did we have a 2 hour meditation stint as well? That was done at a few I've been to. I lived on apples and yogurt.

Back then I thought it was all bliss (and who knows what was in the yogurt), not sleep deprivation and travel fatigue. Hey maybe that's what k really is, jet lag and exhaustion.

Aaah the memories.

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Date: Mon, Mar 19, 2001 at 01:48:22 (GMT)
From: Pat Conlon
Email: None
To: Connie
Subject: Jayanti 77 - pasta 3 times a day and constipation
Message:
Thank god I went with the Indians from Durban and could get a curry and rice fix occassionally.
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Date: Sun, Mar 18, 2001 at 22:34:30 (GMT)
From: AJW
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: Trouble in the Ranks, Cracks in the Cult?
Message:
Hi,

I was just down in the Inactive Index, looking for a discussion I was having about the Taliban with Jim, when I came across Moll of Moles posts. They are very interesting.

It seems there's trouble down-under, and folk are saying, 'Enough is Enough.' I've heard from elsewhere that the registrations for Amaroo are abysmally low. Moll also talks about fund raising meetings being organised for large donors, indicating a crisis on top of the normal crisis.

Can it really be that this is when the cult begins to crumble? Or is this wishful thinking?

We need hard facts. Catweazle, come on. Give us the party line. Mel, salam, aussie-ji formerly known as Tony Bennett, what's happening down there?

Anth the malicious, propagandist, gossip trying to start nasty rumours when really everything's perfect, by His grace.

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Date: Tues, Mar 20, 2001 at 05:11:36 (GMT)
From: Francesca
Email: None
To: AJW
Subject: No - trouble in the banks, crocks in the cult! n/t
Message:
n/t
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Date: Mon, Mar 19, 2001 at 09:14:19 (GMT)
From: Tony Walker (Aussi Ji)
Email: None
To: AJW
Subject: Trouble in the Ranks, Cracks in the Cult?
Message:
G,day Anth,
How ya goin'old son.How are they hangin' and how's it swingin'
It would seem as though registrations are low over here.Unfortunately,I hate to say cw could be right in that Aussies are notorious for being late starters.A lot of premies might be holding out but they had better hurry up with their rego payments in US dollars as the Aussie dollar is on a downward spiral.
I remain optimistic that a lot of Aussies won't show at the last moment or will say that they will wait till next time around.
There was another important conference call the other night about the dilemma,but I don't know any details as yet.
Bt the way Anth where did you get the Tony Bennett from?Was it my rendition of My Way (his way)?

Cheers Tony.

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Date: Mon, Mar 19, 2001 at 14:18:45 (GMT)
From: CW
Email: None
To: Tony Walker (Aussi Ji)
Subject: What's your name?
Message:
Come on Toe Knee.You know ive had a little sniff around.And you just dont exist. What are you playing at?
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Date: Mon, Mar 19, 2001 at 20:07:08 (GMT)
From: Tony Walker
Email: None
To: CW
Subject: Your nose does'nt work Puss.
Message:
Christ CW check again.I have only been an ex for 6 months or so and already I don't exist?You have my name,my email address,I have even mentioned where I live somewhere and you still can't find me.Do you need to be hit by a Mac truck to get it.
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Date: Mon, Mar 19, 2001 at 20:41:17 (GMT)
From: Pat Conlon
Email: None
To: Tony Walker
Subject: Nose does'nt work because you put it out of joint
Message:
Tony - by being fearless and up front and speaking the TRUTH unlike this particular coward skulking ANONYMOUSLY!
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Date: Mon, Mar 19, 2001 at 15:33:51 (GMT)
From: Nigel
Email: nigel@redcrow.demon.co.uk
To: CW
Subject: FA - Anonymous twerp doing it again.
Message:
You mentioned the rule about anonymous premies stalking individual known exes. CW's been doing this to pretty well every Australian ex who ever posted here. On the one hand he may be doing more damage to the cult than he intends, on the other I don't think Tony, Pete, Salam or whoever should have to deal with this idiot's intimidation every time they set foot on the forum.
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Date: Mon, Mar 19, 2001 at 15:45:57 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Nigel
Subject: FA -- Nigel's right for a change
Message:
It really is too much to let this fool, impotent and stupid as he is, do this. Don't you think?
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Date: Mon, Mar 19, 2001 at 20:16:25 (GMT)
From: Tony Walker
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Yeah piss him off! nt
Message:
nt
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Date: Mon, Mar 19, 2001 at 15:23:48 (GMT)
From: JohnT
Email: None
To: CW
Subject: Just sniffin' around - what's CAT's name ?
Message:
So Cat,

You like outing people and exposing them do you?

Me too, Cat. Shall we play? Of course, I've got nothing to be ashamed of and nothing to lose, as I regularly make my full name and other details known. Here. But you, well, you are skulking in the shadows, and people will look at you very differently, once I let them know the results of my sniffing around, won't they?

Of course you know that.

CAT = anonymous coward, but not for long.

AHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!

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Date: Tues, Mar 20, 2001 at 06:38:09 (GMT)
From: THAT IS A THREAT FA- CW
Email: None
To: JohnT
Subject: Christian?For Christs sake_Who 's kidding who?
Message:
Step up to the plate John. So who is a nasty snivelling anonymous poster. Put your name to THAT pile of crap. Without your name it is simply a baseless allegation and pure hearsay.
And your threat doesn't worry me. Are you allowed to make Threats? People Out themselves. Who have I outed? And remember..Tony does not exist.
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Date: Tues, Mar 20, 2001 at 18:41:46 (GMT)
From: Katie H.
Email: None
To: THAT IS A THREAT FA- CW
Subject: to John T and Catweasel
Message:
To the best of my knowledge, you aren't allowed to 'out' people on this forum - anyone (Yeah, I KNOW it's happened, but the FA's are stricter about this now!) However, I don't think THREATENING to out someone is forbidden, although the FA's might want to comment on this.

VIOLENT threats or insinuations are not allowed, as I hope everyone here knows by now.

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Date: Tues, Mar 20, 2001 at 10:40:15 (GMT)
From: Cw
Email: None
To: Janet
Subject: Pity you cant pick your chain being yanked?
Message:
Oh my. Janet , I think it best we dont communicate.
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Date: Tues, Mar 20, 2001 at 09:30:41 (GMT)
From: janet
Email: None
To: CatWeasel
Subject: the criminal wants the law to protect him???
Message:
cat, from following all your posts since i ex'ed in october, i conclude you are no premie.you go after people here like a stalker. you talk like a psychotic. you have some bizarre jihad mentality that doesn't resemble Knowledge or Rawat's indications where to look in life at all!

you say you are happy with 'what is'. but you come careening down on posters out of nowhere as if it were your personal vendetta to destroy them.

that isnt 'happiness with what is'

your chosen name combines the characteristics of two vicious hunter-killers. so does your alter ego, victoria bitter.

your make threats to us, here, and then cry for justice when someone uses your own tactics against you?

I hope john T does 'out' you, for the world's sake, the premies' sakes, and for your own. Once we know who you are, we can put the australian police on to your case. you are a dangerous individual. you clearly need to be locked away from society.

we may be able to succeed in this before Amaroo, to protect the others there. If not, we will alert festival security so that you will be apprehended at the gates and taken away from the event and arrested and isolated. you have visibly given us all the evidence we need.

i deeply doubt you have ever been a premie. i believe you probably are a stalker, who has found something to attach themselves to and to hunt down prey. the net is full of them, and so are the cities of the world. and they all give themselves away in time. they can't shut up about how clever they are, and it's their undoing, every time.

you know that minks are weasels, don't you? know how they kill em for mink coats?? they electrocute them up their anuses with hi voltage cattle prod stuns, and skin em alive while they're still stunned and can't bite.

i believe ECT is probably what you will get in custody. you seem to require it profoundly.

be sure and watch for the Light when they throw the switch. You'll be completely paralyzed and unable to move, from the muscle relaxants, but you should be completely conscious. It should be the greatest experience of your life. and after the course of treatments is run, all that hostility and venom will be gone. they'll seat you right up front at the next program, you'll be such a model of calm and tranquillity for all the premies.

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Date: Tues, Mar 20, 2001 at 10:21:39 (GMT)
From: Pat Conlon
Email: None
To: janet
Subject: You are so BAD, janet - what about that spoonful
Message:
of sugar? Helps the medicine go
d
o
w
n.
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Date: Mon, Mar 19, 2001 at 10:37:22 (GMT)
From: AJW
Email: None
To: Tony Walker (Aussi Ji)
Subject: Hangin' to the left.
Message:
Hi Tony,

That was a late night joke about Tony Bennett, drawing on a reference to 'The Artist Formerly Known as Prince.' Sometimes I'm too smart for my own good.

Can you find out what went on during the conference call on Saturday night Tony? I'd love to know what that was all about.

Anth the nosey parker

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Date: Mon, Mar 19, 2001 at 06:36:08 (GMT)
From: Cw
Email: None
To: AJW
Subject: Trouble in the Ranks, Cracks in the Cult?
Message:
Truth is Anth it really comes down to a few Poms showing a lack of sensitivity. Our economy has groaned to a stop and is just about to start rolling backwards. The Aussie Dollar is the lowest its ever been.However the issue has been addressed and ,no,it isn't falling over. Rego is good . Aussies are last minute creatures.
We are resiliant people , just watch us work it out. Anth , it is wishful thinking. And Tony Walker is an anagram for a non-existent person.
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Date: Mon, Mar 19, 2001 at 10:00:04 (GMT)
From: AJW
Email: None
To: Cw
Subject: So Cat, let's see if I've got this right.
Message:
Registration is extremely low- like still in 3 figures, but this is 'good'. (I guess two figures is 'bad' right?)

There's trouble between the Poms and Aussies.

There's trouble between the Aussies and the Aussies.

There's a massive financial crisis in the cult. Charging an arm and a leg to fart in Amaroo was supposed to sort it out, but it seems to be going from bad to worse.

There was a crisis phone conference on Saturday night. (Anybody know what that was all about?)

Aussies may be last minute creatures Cat, but what about the hoardes of faithful from around the world? How are their registrations going?

Anth, thinking wishfully.

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Date: Mon, Mar 19, 2001 at 13:55:36 (GMT)
From: CW
Email: None
To: AJW
Subject: Nah , you 're dreaming Anth
Message:
Not as well plugged in as you use to be.
What you are describing down here is a figment of YOUR imagination. As you say,wishful thinking on your part.
The rest of the world? Much better than you make out.
As well , the best gauge of how things are going here is the 'entry pass' (What could that be?). And it's going well. Got yours? I've got your photo Anth. Where is your application?
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Date: Mon, Mar 19, 2001 at 17:33:58 (GMT)
From: AJW
Email: None
To: CW
Subject: Wild horses wouldn't drag me to that shithole.
Message:
Hi Cat,

I'd rather inject red wine vinegar into my testicles than spend any time in Cultworld Cat. Really, my zombie, arse licking, stop-thinking, toe-kissing, money-giving, days of slavery, self-lobotomy and deeeeelusion are over thank you very much.

So Cat, I've got it all wrong. It's all propaganda. What's the real story? Thousands of registrations? Jumbos flying in from all over the world? Come on, you can tell me. I'm your friend. Don't be shy. Nobody's going to do anything to you. It's only information. Wocha scared of?

Anth the Organic Hambone in a Bad Moog.

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Date: Tues, Mar 20, 2001 at 02:42:38 (GMT)
From: CW
Email: None
To: AJW
Subject: Wild horses wouldn't drag me to that shithole.
Message:
What does it matter to you. I guess you'll find out soon enough.
As for the rest of this lot on the current thread? What did I say about Poms? Brings out the Michael Collins in me
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Date: Tues, Mar 20, 2001 at 04:52:24 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: CW
Subject: Michael Collins? Try Bugsy Malone (nt)
Message:
gggggg
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Date: Tues, Mar 20, 2001 at 06:26:49 (GMT)
From: CW
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Michael Collins? Try Bugsy Malone (nt)
Message:
Michael Collins killed uppity and superior Englishmen for a noble cause. But your right Jim - If I was Bugsy I could also shoot the odd Canuck -Pity about the noble cause. Perhaps I could be a Ned Kelly and shoot all the bloody agents of the crown. Speaking of shooting did you see Twiz's reference to a madmen friend of his in Sydney running around with an AK47. Ohhh Salam???? Me , I dont see that as Kosher. What about you Jim?
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Date: Mon, Mar 19, 2001 at 15:28:18 (GMT)
From: JohnT
Email: None
To: CW
Subject: I've got a picture of YOU too, CAT
Message:
 

AHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!

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Date: Sun, Mar 18, 2001 at 22:57:35 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: AJW
Subject: ***Nominee for Best Anth Signature Phrase***
Message:
Good one, Anth.

Could this really be endgame? Is it possible that any day now all the premies will do the right thing, throw the bum out and finally elect a decent satguru?

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Date: Mon, Mar 19, 2001 at 20:10:15 (GMT)
From: Tony Walker (Aussi Ji)
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: They're all fantastic.can't choose..nt
Message:
nt
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Date: Sun, Mar 18, 2001 at 23:13:43 (GMT)
From: AJW
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Postcards from a Veg'
Message:
I wouldn't be surprised if they're fucked Jim.

Lets say only a few hundred have registered. One of the ideas of this cultfest was to repair the financial damage being done by falling donations to Captain Rawat's 'Cognac and Private Jets for World Peace' fund.

If this one is a complete flop they'll really be in the shit. Who knows, maybe they'll even cancel it, particularly if the Captain throws a tantrum because the Aussie premies are in revolution. He's done that kind of thing before.

Wouldn't that be a gas. The remaining three or four hundred faithful, who were actually dumb enough to cough up thousands to camp in the bush, won't even get their money back.

That'll do a lot to keep the remaining hardcore of the cult keen and ready to donate for the next one. Their credibility will be completely shot.

It really could be the end Jim. Much better it's all over fast. Maybe there'll be a boom in Psychotherapy, or even Moonie membership. Who knows?

Anth on a postcard please.

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Date: Sun, Mar 18, 2001 at 23:21:07 (GMT)
From: Marianne
Email: None
To: AJW
Subject: I know why it's falling apart
Message:
Latvian Night spies reported our plans and everyone quit.

Marianne

PS Jonathan Cainer was just on the telly!!!! He's gone up in the world, hasn't he?

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Date: Tues, Mar 20, 2001 at 20:09:45 (GMT)
From: test
Email: None
To: Marianne
Subject: test
Message:
CNN
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