Pat Conlon -:- Jim: Colloquialism vs Precise semantics -:- Thurs, Mar 22, 2001 at 09:14:07 (GMT)

__ Jim -:- Jim: Colloquialism vs Precise semantics -:- Thurs, Mar 22, 2001 at 15:53:28 (GMT)

__ __ Joe -:- To Judge -:- Thurs, Mar 22, 2001 at 19:30:59 (GMT)

__ __ __ Pat Conlon -:- Excellent analysis, Joe -:- Thurs, Mar 22, 2001 at 20:02:09 (GMT)

__ __ Pat Conlon -:- Drawing the line, Jim -:- Thurs, Mar 22, 2001 at 18:37:32 (GMT)

__ __ __ jnaet -:- may i jump in? -:- Fri, Mar 23, 2001 at 13:48:23 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ Pat Conlon -:- janet, long-winded but good conclusion NT -:- Sat, Mar 24, 2001 at 03:33:22 (GMT)

__ __ __ Jim -:- Different THAN vs. Different FROM -:- Fri, Mar 23, 2001 at 01:23:54 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ Pat Conlon -:- Different THAN vs. Different FROM, Jim Nitpicker -:- Fri, Mar 23, 2001 at 01:46:11 (GMT)

__ Abi -:- Don't knock Karl Marx -:- Thurs, Mar 22, 2001 at 10:49:10 (GMT)

__ __ such -:- Groucho:'Don't you know there's no Sanity Clause?' -:- Sat, Mar 24, 2001 at 07:02:31 (GMT)

__ __ Pat Conlon -:- Don't knock Karl Marx - I don't really, Abi -:- Thurs, Mar 22, 2001 at 18:42:08 (GMT)

Joe -:- Exit Counseling --- How do you get it? -:- Thurs, Mar 22, 2001 at 05:23:21 (GMT)

__ Katie H. -:- One thing that really helped me -:- Thurs, Mar 22, 2001 at 15:32:35 (GMT)

__ such -:- Fostering a healthy and safe environment -:- Thurs, Mar 22, 2001 at 08:02:22 (GMT)

__ Abi -:- Exit Counseling --- How do you get it? -:- Thurs, Mar 22, 2001 at 07:46:15 (GMT)

__ __ Katie Darling -:- Exit Counseling --- How do you get it? -:- Thurs, Mar 22, 2001 at 23:43:03 (GMT)

__ __ __ D_Thomas -:- Basic Assumptions -:- Fri, Mar 23, 2001 at 22:33:12 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ Katie H. -:- Basic Assumptions - depends on the therapist -:- Sat, Mar 24, 2001 at 16:33:35 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ Katie Darling -:- Basic Assumptions -:- Sat, Mar 24, 2001 at 01:03:44 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ such -:- some of my counsellor friends 'meditate',too (nt -:- Sat, Mar 24, 2001 at 06:58:46 (GMT)

__ __ __ Mercedes -:- Hola querida -:- Fri, Mar 23, 2001 at 05:08:03 (GMT)

__ __ __ such -:- very good! also, some counsellors have agendas (mt -:- Fri, Mar 23, 2001 at 03:31:58 (GMT)

Pat Conlon -:- FYI: Hippie premie reports from Portland -:- Thurs, Mar 22, 2001 at 03:20:56 (GMT)

__ la-ex -:- exactly!Goes along with startegies#1,3,4... -:- Sat, Mar 24, 2001 at 04:56:35 (GMT)

__ __ Pat Conlon -:- la-ex, this thinking is so typical of PWKs -:- Sat, Mar 24, 2001 at 05:49:11 (GMT)

__ __ __ such -:- bet the others thought you were 'in your mind' (nt -:- Sat, Mar 24, 2001 at 06:54:01 (GMT)

__ Joe -:- Extreme self-delusion -:- Thurs, Mar 22, 2001 at 17:53:24 (GMT)

__ donner -:- FYI: Hippie premie reports from Portland -:- Thurs, Mar 22, 2001 at 16:28:25 (GMT)

__ __ Connie -:- Glued to m and your TV -:- Fri, Mar 23, 2001 at 00:59:38 (GMT)

__ __ __ janet -:- this is exactly how i came to turn away! -:- Fri, Mar 23, 2001 at 14:34:19 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ Connie -:- this is exactly how i came to turn away! -:- Fri, Mar 23, 2001 at 14:48:07 (GMT)

__ __ __ Pat Conlon -:- Connie, I guess us new exes went through very -:- Fri, Mar 23, 2001 at 01:52:04 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ Connie -:- Pat, new exes, old gopis -:- Fri, Mar 23, 2001 at 06:47:57 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ Pat Conlon -:- Connie, here's a letter I just sent to a old gopi -:- Fri, Mar 23, 2001 at 09:32:26 (GMT)

__ Katie H. -:- This makes me sad -:- Thurs, Mar 22, 2001 at 15:39:50 (GMT)

__ __ Helen -:- This makes me sad -:- Fri, Mar 23, 2001 at 02:15:24 (GMT)

__ __ Pat Conlon -:- Joe, Donner, Katie. EV v Rev Rawat is THE strategy -:- Thurs, Mar 22, 2001 at 19:17:37 (GMT)

__ bill--'everyone else is -:- stupid and no one, not even my mom can stop me'.nt -:- Thurs, Mar 22, 2001 at 13:39:35 (GMT)

__ Richard -:- Blissful, satellite dish replaces arti tray /nt -:- Thurs, Mar 22, 2001 at 06:25:32 (GMT)

__ __ Francesca -:- Brilliant! the smarti dish n/t -:- Thurs, Mar 22, 2001 at 16:58:23 (GMT)

__ Francesca -:- Is this our dear friend from Arcata -:- Thurs, Mar 22, 2001 at 04:47:56 (GMT)

__ __ Pat Conlon -:- Is this our dear friend from Arcata no but he sent -:- Thurs, Mar 22, 2001 at 05:47:54 (GMT)

__ __ __ Francesca -:- Daily e-mails??!!!!! -:- Thurs, Mar 22, 2001 at 17:00:45 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ Pat Conlon -:- Daily e-mails? Yes, I have warned him I will block -:- Thurs, Mar 22, 2001 at 19:22:14 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ Francesca -:- Sigh, compassion ... -:- Thurs, Mar 22, 2001 at 19:50:00 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ Pat Conlon -:- But like many psychics he is also a WITCH -:- Thurs, Mar 22, 2001 at 20:10:40 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Joy -:- Selfish Premie Morality -:- Fri, Mar 23, 2001 at 03:18:08 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Katie Darling -:- Re the 'friend' -:- Fri, Mar 23, 2001 at 03:30:00 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Pat Conlon -:- Selfish Premie Immorality -methinks the lady doth -:- Fri, Mar 23, 2001 at 03:23:59 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ G -:- premies detesting each other -:- Thurs, Mar 22, 2001 at 20:36:51 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Pat Conlon -:- Grace race worse than rat race NT -:- Thurs, Mar 22, 2001 at 20:45:50 (GMT)

__ __ Mercedes -:- Just thinking.... -:- Thurs, Mar 22, 2001 at 05:25:15 (GMT)

__ __ __ Pat Conlon -:- Mercedes he likes to see gopis jealously fighting -:- Thurs, Mar 22, 2001 at 19:24:30 (GMT)

__ __ __ Richard -:- M's kids help present a new promo video series -:- Thurs, Mar 22, 2001 at 07:28:22 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ Pat Conlon -:- M's kids help - this is horrible -:- Thurs, Mar 22, 2001 at 09:18:18 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ Hanuman -:- M's kids help - this is horrible -:- Thurs, Mar 22, 2001 at 09:47:59 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ Tim Matheson -:- Welcome Hanu Man -:- Thurs, Mar 22, 2001 at 11:04:35 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ Pat Conlon -:- Hanuman is a monkey. Monkey see - monkey do -:- Thurs, Mar 22, 2001 at 10:13:56 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Hanuman -:- Hanuman is a monkey. Monkey see - monkey do -:- Fri, Mar 23, 2001 at 14:20:32 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Pat Conlon -:- Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the law... -:- Sat, Mar 24, 2001 at 03:23:27 (GMT)

Pat Conlon -:- Christianity v Maharajism/Krishnaism -:- Thurs, Mar 22, 2001 at 02:39:42 (GMT)

__ hanuman -:- Christianity v Maharajism/Krishnaism -:- Fri, Mar 23, 2001 at 14:53:34 (GMT)

__ __ Hal -:- Christianity v Maharajism/Krishnaism -:- Fri, Mar 23, 2001 at 20:08:16 (GMT)

__ Deputy Dog -:- Pat, thanks for these thoughts! -:- Fri, Mar 23, 2001 at 03:12:07 (GMT)

__ __ Pat Conlon -:- Dog, I always wondered why I was a ''bad'' premie -:- Fri, Mar 23, 2001 at 03:48:00 (GMT)

__ Helen -:- Christianity v Maharajism/Krishnaism -:- Fri, Mar 23, 2001 at 02:22:46 (GMT)

__ __ Pat Conlon -:- Helen, I enjoyed your post about university -:- Sat, Mar 24, 2001 at 03:36:06 (GMT)

__ __ __ Helen -:- Helen, I enjoyed your post about university -:- Sat, Mar 24, 2001 at 15:02:30 (GMT)

__ __ Joy -:- Brilliant, Helen -:- Fri, Mar 23, 2001 at 03:30:49 (GMT)

__ __ __ Helen -:- narcissistic mastubatory bliss fix -:- Fri, Mar 23, 2001 at 22:05:05 (GMT)

__ __ __ Susan -:- Brilliant, Helen I second that! (nt) -:- Fri, Mar 23, 2001 at 17:15:09 (GMT)

__ Jerry -:- Christianity v Maharajism/Krishnaism -:- Thurs, Mar 22, 2001 at 17:16:43 (GMT)

__ Francesca -:- Great post, and I am afraid -:- Thurs, Mar 22, 2001 at 04:33:29 (GMT)

__ __ Richard -:- Great Pat C: correct about darshan = addiction -:- Thurs, Mar 22, 2001 at 07:51:07 (GMT)

__ __ __ Robyn -:- Great Pat C: correct about darshan = addiction -:- Thurs, Mar 22, 2001 at 13:14:59 (GMT)

__ __ __ Pat Conlon -:- darshan = addiction. I knew you'd get it, Richard -:- Thurs, Mar 22, 2001 at 09:21:21 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ Mercedes -:- darshan = addiction. -:- Fri, Mar 23, 2001 at 04:55:16 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ Pat Conlon -:- Hi, Mercedes -:- Fri, Mar 23, 2001 at 06:31:50 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ Francesca -:- No, not the fundies! -:- Thurs, Mar 22, 2001 at 17:21:22 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ Pat Conlon -:- Jerry Fallwell could you please investigate Rawat -:- Thurs, Mar 22, 2001 at 19:10:30 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ la-ex -:- I think Pat Robertson would be best...nt -:- Fri, Mar 23, 2001 at 03:25:51 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Pat Conlon -:- Which devil is worse: Rev Rawat or Rev Robertson? -:- Fri, Mar 23, 2001 at 03:29:24 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Katie H. -:- Pat, I've had similar thoughts -:- Fri, Mar 23, 2001 at 12:29:21 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Pat Conlon -:- Katie, the nice christians are too tolerant -:- Sat, Mar 24, 2001 at 03:31:26 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ Francesca -:- Teletubby v Tubby Televangialist !!! n/t -:- Thurs, Mar 22, 2001 at 19:54:44 (GMT)

Jim -:- Maharaji takes one on the chin, still standing tho -:- Thurs, Mar 22, 2001 at 00:34:50 (GMT)

__ AJW -:- No emails in the 15th Century- Interesting. -:- Fri, Mar 23, 2001 at 10:45:16 (GMT)

__ Helen -:- Maharaji takes one on the chin, still standing tho -:- Fri, Mar 23, 2001 at 03:02:29 (GMT)

__ bill--again,'people want -:- me to be moderate BUT,' take THAT! mom..nt -:- Thurs, Mar 22, 2001 at 13:44:03 (GMT)

__ A Former Aspirant -:- This is pathetic -:- Thurs, Mar 22, 2001 at 05:36:16 (GMT)

__ __ Sir Dave -:- This is pathetic - an explanation -:- Thurs, Mar 22, 2001 at 11:58:56 (GMT)

__ Jim -:- I take it back, apparently it was better than ever -:- Thurs, Mar 22, 2001 at 01:47:26 (GMT)

__ __ Jim -:- You know, I think the church ladies keep me going -:- Thurs, Mar 22, 2001 at 01:54:12 (GMT)

__ __ __ Pat Conlon -:- Please Jim, some compassion for the church ladies -:- Thurs, Mar 22, 2001 at 09:26:07 (GMT)

__ Pat Conlon -:- ''to remind you of this breath?'' Rev Rawat, 3-18 -:- Thurs, Mar 22, 2001 at 00:53:31 (GMT)

__ __ la-ex -:- maybe M should market 'Iron Lung' machines ... -:- Thurs, Mar 22, 2001 at 04:28:43 (GMT)

__ Selene -:- so now he isn't a TEACHER either? -:- Thurs, Mar 22, 2001 at 00:43:09 (GMT)

__ __ Van Morrison -:- No Guru, No Method, Not Teacher -:- Thurs, Mar 22, 2001 at 13:17:39 (GMT)

__ __ __ Pat Conlon -:- Breathe in, breathe out - and you're high - NT -:- Fri, Mar 23, 2001 at 03:26:43 (GMT)

__ __ __ Selene -:- No Guru, No Method, Not Teacher -:- Fri, Mar 23, 2001 at 03:21:18 (GMT)

__ __ Pat Conlon -:- Not teacher or preacher - darshan veinding machine -:- Thurs, Mar 22, 2001 at 00:56:11 (GMT)

__ __ __ Tonette -:- My that's funny!!!! -:- Thurs, Mar 22, 2001 at 02:34:23 (GMT)

__ __ __ Selene -:- well it's shit, he has been calling himself -:- Thurs, Mar 22, 2001 at 01:39:10 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ Pat Conlon -:- Forget revisonism - still KRISHNA -DARSHAN is drug -:- Thurs, Mar 22, 2001 at 01:57:34 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ Lesley -:- darshan drug is a storm in a teacup -:- Thurs, Mar 22, 2001 at 19:53:17 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ Pat Conlon -:- darshan drug addiction easy to kick -:- Thurs, Mar 22, 2001 at 20:13:38 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Lesley -:- sure I do, though many are unaware of what they -:- Thurs, Mar 22, 2001 at 20:52:35 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Lesley -:- vulnerability -:- Thurs, Mar 22, 2001 at 21:00:25 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Lesley -:- yes I do, Pat -:- Fri, Mar 23, 2001 at 21:13:16 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Pat Conlon -:- vulnerability - I hope you have strong allies, Les -:- Thurs, Mar 22, 2001 at 21:25:18 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Pat Conlon -:- recovery from Krishnaism -:- Thurs, Mar 22, 2001 at 20:58:39 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ Connie -:- A soft centred chocolate -:- Thurs, Mar 22, 2001 at 07:47:42 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ Pat Conlon -:- A soft centred chocolate - with a heart of poison -:- Thurs, Mar 22, 2001 at 09:32:38 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ Gibran -:- this breath is sweet -:- Thurs, Mar 22, 2001 at 09:01:42 (GMT)

JHB -:- This thing about criticising Maharaji -:- Wed, Mar 21, 2001 at 23:39:22 (GMT)

__ Helen -:- I understnad the denial -:- Thurs, Mar 22, 2001 at 22:06:32 (GMT)

__ Bin Liner -:- I had a similar conversation recently .. -:- Thurs, Mar 22, 2001 at 21:15:22 (GMT)

__ __ Bobby -:- anyone know Clive Goodenough? -:- Fri, Mar 23, 2001 at 02:27:42 (GMT)

__ __ JHB -:- Saph??? (nt) -:- Fri, Mar 23, 2001 at 00:04:52 (GMT)

__ __ __ Bin Liner -:- No , he's gonzo , I thought we might have -:- Fri, Mar 23, 2001 at 00:42:31 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ JHB -:- No , he's gonzo , I thought we might have -:- Fri, Mar 23, 2001 at 00:51:40 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ Bin Liner -:- 32 yrs is what he told me nt -:- Fri, Mar 23, 2001 at 01:48:31 (GMT)

__ such -:- maybe he felt his personal space was being invaded -:- Thurs, Mar 22, 2001 at 07:08:38 (GMT)

__ __ Pat Conlon -:- You're a saint, Swami JI. Now if you would just -:- Thurs, Mar 22, 2001 at 09:36:25 (GMT)

__ __ __ suchabanana -:- I am that I am - transparent. apparent? soon... -:- Thurs, Mar 22, 2001 at 11:13:48 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ Pat Conlon -:- You nature is transparent and sincere, Swami NT -:- Thurs, Mar 22, 2001 at 19:00:32 (GMT)

__ __ JHB -:- I agree completely -:- Thurs, Mar 22, 2001 at 08:44:27 (GMT)

__ __ __ such -:- I Absolutely agree with you, JHB. thanks... (nt -:- Thurs, Mar 22, 2001 at 09:47:43 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ such -:- also, words once said are hard to retract... -:- Thurs, Mar 22, 2001 at 10:40:32 (GMT)

__ __ __ janet -:- i can see someone ex'ing who put up with a lot -:- Thurs, Mar 22, 2001 at 09:01:17 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ such -:- Excellent! many [ex]premies just moved along...(mt -:- Thurs, Mar 22, 2001 at 10:02:28 (GMT)

__ Francesca -:- You are right on. Cult-think all the way! n/t -:- Thurs, Mar 22, 2001 at 00:58:26 (GMT)

__ Pat Conlon -:- This thing about criticising Maharaji. John maybe -:- Wed, Mar 21, 2001 at 23:51:56 (GMT)

__ __ Jim -:- Criticize = Critique = Judge = Evaluate -:- Thurs, Mar 22, 2001 at 01:32:46 (GMT)

__ __ __ Pat Conlon -:- Criticize = good. Judge = bad -:- Thurs, Mar 22, 2001 at 02:03:53 (GMT)

__ __ Bobby -:- This thing about criticising Maharaji. John maybe -:- Thurs, Mar 22, 2001 at 00:37:31 (GMT)

__ __ __ Pat Conlon -:- Judgement implies anger , hatred and blame -:- Thurs, Mar 22, 2001 at 02:08:01 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ Jim -:- No it doesn't -:- Thurs, Mar 22, 2001 at 02:38:59 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ Pat Conlon -:- Oh there you are Jim -:- Thurs, Mar 22, 2001 at 02:42:43 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ Jim -:- Without judgement there's nothing to forgive -:- Thurs, Mar 22, 2001 at 04:19:46 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Pat Conlon -:- Without judgement there's ...Jim, you're right -:- Thurs, Mar 22, 2001 at 05:57:18 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Hi -:- Without judgement there's ...Jim, you're right -:- Thurs, Mar 22, 2001 at 06:32:27 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ CD -:- right -:- Fri, Mar 23, 2001 at 10:01:49 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Hi -:- What a bunch of nonsense CD. nt -:- Sat, Mar 24, 2001 at 02:45:23 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Pat Conlon -:- Hi, Hi. Who are you, Hi? Wise words. Thanks. -:- Thurs, Mar 22, 2001 at 08:59:58 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Hi -:- No wisdom here. It just seems to make sense. nt -:- Thurs, Mar 22, 2001 at 18:25:00 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ bill -:- Greetings Hi, post some more....nt -:- Thurs, Mar 22, 2001 at 14:00:23 (GMT)

__ Selene -:- This thing about criticising Maharaji -:- Wed, Mar 21, 2001 at 23:51:12 (GMT)

__ __ JHB -:- This thing about criticising Maharaji -:- Thurs, Mar 22, 2001 at 00:33:17 (GMT)

__ __ __ Hal -:- This thing about criticising Maharaji -:- Thurs, Mar 22, 2001 at 07:38:09 (GMT)

Way -:- Holi 2001 -:- Wed, Mar 21, 2001 at 18:27:35 (GMT)

__ bill -:- What? warlocks cant get wet either?....nt -:- Thurs, Mar 22, 2001 at 13:58:20 (GMT)

__ such -:- Holi shit!!!! (nt -:- Thurs, Mar 22, 2001 at 05:58:48 (GMT)

__ Abi -:- Holi 2001 -:- Thurs, Mar 22, 2001 at 01:52:08 (GMT)

__ cq -:- Holi space oddysey Batman! -:- Wed, Mar 21, 2001 at 20:27:14 (GMT)

__ __ Francesca -:- Where's da bathing cap? -:- Wed, Mar 21, 2001 at 23:27:50 (GMT)

__ __ __ cq -:- working on it - Friday pm OK for you? -:- Thurs, Mar 22, 2001 at 21:43:17 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ Francesca -:- yeah, we all have our day jobs!!! n/t -:- Fri, Mar 23, 2001 at 05:52:46 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ cq -:- ...and beauty sleep!Somehow the link now works(nt) -:- Fri, Mar 23, 2001 at 20:40:45 (GMT)

__ david m -:- Holi 2001 -:- Wed, Mar 21, 2001 at 19:52:08 (GMT)

__ __ Marianne -:- Hey there david m! -:- Wed, Mar 21, 2001 at 20:09:34 (GMT)

__ __ __ david m -:- Hey there Marianne...{OT} -:- Wed, Mar 21, 2001 at 20:16:34 (GMT)

__ Cynthia -:- Holi 2001...WHAT? They can't think of anything... -:- Wed, Mar 21, 2001 at 19:10:46 (GMT)

__ __ janet -:- i was just getting nostalgic the other day.. -:- Thurs, Mar 22, 2001 at 11:20:12 (GMT)

Hanuman -:- is still around.. -:- Wed, Mar 21, 2001 at 10:04:30 (GMT)

__ Nigel -:- Pompous ass... -:- Thurs, Mar 22, 2001 at 18:57:24 (GMT)

__ janet -:- well i tell you what hanuman. if you have a -:- Thurs, Mar 22, 2001 at 12:15:24 (GMT)

__ AJW -:- Hanuman, if you find it boring here... -:- Thurs, Mar 22, 2001 at 11:27:13 (GMT)

__ Dave Punshon -:- is still around.. -:- Thurs, Mar 22, 2001 at 10:46:25 (GMT)

__ __ AJW -:- Hi Dave (ot) -:- Thurs, Mar 22, 2001 at 11:28:56 (GMT)

__ __ Jethro -:- Hi Dave (OT) -:- Thurs, Mar 22, 2001 at 11:07:19 (GMT)

__ Pat Conlon -:- Hanuman committed hideous atrocities in the -:- Thurs, Mar 22, 2001 at 02:25:05 (GMT)

__ __ Mercedes -:- could not have said it better myself. Tk's Pat(nt) -:- Thurs, Mar 22, 2001 at 04:20:41 (GMT)

__ cq -:- You identify with being Hanuman??? but your post -:- Wed, Mar 21, 2001 at 21:21:11 (GMT)

__ __ Hanuman -:- You identify with being Hanuman??? but your post -:- Thurs, Mar 22, 2001 at 09:53:07 (GMT)

__ __ __ cq -:- does one bless people that one ALLEGEDLY damns??? -:- Thurs, Mar 22, 2001 at 21:46:11 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ hanuman -:- does one bless people that one ALLEGEDLY damns??? -:- Fri, Mar 23, 2001 at 14:35:40 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ cq -:- The doctrine according to Rumi -:- Fri, Mar 23, 2001 at 20:03:42 (GMT)

__ __ __ Jethro -:- If you realy were a Hanuman -:- Thurs, Mar 22, 2001 at 11:05:26 (GMT)

__ suchabanana -:- intelligence vs shit-for-brains:Lord, NOT Lard!(nt -:- Wed, Mar 21, 2001 at 20:12:11 (GMT)

__ New-Age Redneck -:- I prefer the title, 'dna-mukh,' thanks.... -:- Wed, Mar 21, 2001 at 18:31:48 (GMT)

__ Jim -:- Better keep praying, bud, is all I can say (nt) -:- Wed, Mar 21, 2001 at 17:16:42 (GMT)

__ Cynthia -:- is still around... -:- Wed, Mar 21, 2001 at 16:18:40 (GMT)

__ __ Hanuman -:- is still around... -:- Thurs, Mar 22, 2001 at 09:56:14 (GMT)

__ JHB -:- What's your basis for your belief system? -:- Wed, Mar 21, 2001 at 14:01:46 (GMT)

__ Bryn -:- Certainly saved you from a brilliant intellect- -:- Wed, Mar 21, 2001 at 13:10:40 (GMT)

__ Gibran -:- is still around.. -:- Wed, Mar 21, 2001 at 11:56:35 (GMT)

__ toby -:- is still around.. -:- Wed, Mar 21, 2001 at 11:35:59 (GMT)

__ __ Hanuman -:- is still around.. -:- Thurs, Mar 22, 2001 at 10:00:51 (GMT)

__ Ulf -:- is still around.. -:- Wed, Mar 21, 2001 at 11:20:02 (GMT)

__ Sir Dave -:- is still around.. -:- Wed, Mar 21, 2001 at 10:20:47 (GMT)

__ __ donner -:- is still around.. -:- Wed, Mar 21, 2001 at 15:47:15 (GMT)

Date: Thurs, Mar 22, 2001 at 09:14:07 (GMT) From: Pat Conlon Email: None To: Everyone and Jim Subject: Jim: Colloquialism vs Precise semantics Message:

Jim, a few thoughts that I have had since posting to you previously regarding the meaning of the word ''judge.'' This is a conversation that I have been meaning to have with you for quite a while. Colloquialism vs Precise semantics (Amateur vs Professional writing) The reason why I am making the effort to write this is because I believe that you provide an invaluable service here insofar as calling our attention to the need for verbal precision in a medium that relies entirely on that. I do not disagree with you when you criticize cliches, truisms and other assumptive thought. I don't even argue with you when you occassionally attack colloquialisms eventhough you also use colloquial language when having discussions with most of us. You are more precise when communicating with the FV eggheads and are particularly argumentative when faced with what you call New Age thinking. I don't see any wrong in your several modes of communication because a) you are completely sincere and totally without malice and b) because who am I to judge when English is my second language and I don't have much sympathy for the assumptive thinking of any group whether it is the rock-n-roll culture or the New Agers. And I have been writing and experimenting in two languages for 40 years - albeit quite lazily. Your approach to language seems to be determined by the following: You are trained and have become adept at writing very precise language under a deadline which usually becomes part of a legal record and the paper trail that you create can have serious consequences. You're a professional writer and speaker. Most of us use language much less rigorously. Your demand for precision is very useful in this medium but can also be tiresome for us lazier ''amateurs'' who often make assumptions about the language that we are speaking. You don't attack Joe or even Chuck both of whom write very dry, unflambyouant, factual posts. (But I know that Chuck, at least, does not care if he does not use words precisely.) Their intentions, honesty and motives are clear and their facts are usually straight. I have been writing ''imaginative'' stuff for 34 years and am less transparent. Creating fictional characters can do that to you as I'm sure the creators of Pauline and TED will attest. Writing novels makes one long-winded. Writing briefs makes one - well, brief. Two things popped into my head when I read your last response to me. The writers of the King James Bible used the word ''judge'' very differently from the way we do now. Tudor England saw ancient Israel through its own particular lens. The combined reality of Tudor Englishmen and their imaginative re-creation of ancient Israel produced a language which can only be understood in its particular context. Words can have different meanings inside of different contexts. For instance - ''cool.'' I'm sure you can think of you own examples. And the meaning of words have changed and are still changing. If Shakespeare had not indulged himself in neologisms we would not have - well, we would not have Shakespeare. You are absolutely right to ask us to adhere to currently accepted usages in order to facilitate communication in a totally verbal medium. Unfortunately (or fortunately depending on one's tastes) New Agisms and Coca-colloquialisms have entered currently accepted usage. You are fighting a loosing battle but I am glad that you are fighting it. What can I say - I'm a liberal who sees all sides and is happy that there are conservatives pulling in the reins and progressives whipping the horses. And that goes for more than language. I guess I really am long-winded because all I am asking for from you is to have a bit of patience and tolerance for the colloquialists. I'll be there right beside you in any attempts to foist group or cult think on us but I must warn you that I also regard the establishment as a group and I regard all groups as cults. I don't attack the establishment for the simple reason that I do not wish to cut off the branch on which I am sitting - the benefits of science, critical thinking, democracy and all the other achievements of western Judeo-christian thought (which includes the resurgence of platonism during the renaissance.) Everything else including New Agism and the dreadful rock-n-roll pop culture is fair game. I have jokingly called you a soto zen master (stop imagining and see reality) and referred to myself as an armchair yogi (the dreamer who gets lost in imagination.) They are very different types. Plato did not err when he wrote one of his finest works in the form of a discussion between people holding many different view-points, The Symposium. He wanted us to see all sides through his dialectic. I wish Marx had seen that too when propounding his dialectical materialism but instead he ended up a totalitarian who despised liberals and most of whose children committed suicide because of his stubbornness and inflexibility. No dictatorship has any redeeming value including Rev Rawat's mystical totalitarianism. Give me liberal agnosticism and Mozart's Requiem anyday. So now what were you saying about the word ''judge?''

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Date: Thurs, Mar 22, 2001 at 15:53:28 (GMT) From: Jim Email: None To: Pat Conlon Subject: Jim: Colloquialism vs Precise semantics Message:

So now what were you saying about the word ''judge?'' I don't have any problem with colloquialism generally. But there are two areas where I do take objection to 'new' language usage. One is when usage offends my ear, the other when words seem to get hijacked, turned on their side, sometimes even their head, resulting in nothing but confusion. In that respect, I don't think I'm different than you or anyone. It's just a matter of where you draw the line. What offends YOUR ear? What semantic smudging won't you take sitting down? For example, lots of people today say 'me and her' or 'me and him' in a subjective sense as in 'me and her went to the store'. Personally, I hate that. Yet I hear it all around me, adults as well as younger people, and I can't go around correcting everyone. Sometimes I say something, sometimes I let it slide. Likewise the complementary malapropism, people using 'I' as an object, as in 'That's what they said to him and I'. In fact, if I had to choose, I think I hate that one even more. It's abominal. Still, depending on the cirucmstances, I sometimes let it slide. That's life, eh? However, as you might have noted, I have no problem saying 'if I would have' which, for some reason, drives Laurie nuts. She can't help but correct me and has been doing so for years -- poor girl. Apparently, the correct usage is 'If I had' and her ear won't forget it. I understand that. (Yeah, right!) You, too, Patrick must have some minimal standards your ear will fight for. Everyone does. Even the most uneducated, feral street punk develops an ear for his or her language and knows a bad note when he or she hears it. So that's one thing. But the other bugaboo is this semantic fudging shit. I mean, really, let's look at what's happened with 'judge'. Somehow, somewhere, in the not too distant past, someone got it in their head that it was wrong for people to pass moral judgement on each other. I'm pretty sure this all started in the swinging sixities when people really pushed the envelope on doing their 'own thing' and not getting 'hung up' about anyone else's. So the little teenager gets upset when he found out his parents went to some 'key party'. He tells his cool uncle whose only advice is to be 'cool' about it and not 'judge'. Like, 'who are you to judge?' kinda thing. Like, you know? Okay, so like many social trends, there was some good to that moral solipsism. It broke up the obsessive Mrs. Cravetts syndrome ('Bewitched') where stifling conformity was the norm, indeed the norm was the norm. But, as often happens, there was some bad too. As I see it, the new agers in particular seized on this idea that 'judging' is somehow inherently bad. Why? Well to me the answer's pretty obvious: to protect their dumb-ass ideas from scrutiny. I mean isn't that obvious to you? The biggest proponents of this 'don't judge' thing, to me, are always the people with the strangest ideas. Like, what a surprise, huh? So then this whole bizarre trend occurs where one of the most natural, inescapable functions of daily life -- judgement -- is decried as something both undesirable and avoidable with practise. It is, of course, neither. All the same, with this dumb-ass idea circulating as it does, people are forced to either tip toe around it, making their judgements as they always do but either feeling pressured to muzzle themselves or finding some indirect way or expressing them. That, to me, is offensive. After all, it's not as if this little word-game, which is how I see it, isn't wielded as some great, moral imperative in certain circles. It is and, to the extent that that impairs honest communication, it really offends me. I'm not sure it's necessary or helpful to try to extrapolate this issue to bigger concerns like totalitarianism versus plurality and freedom. Frankly, I think that's a bit much. But I do think it's helpful to consider how word trends like this occur and how they affect your own communication. Okay. What's next? Want to talk about 'I Statements'? :)

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Date: Thurs, Mar 22, 2001 at 19:30:59 (GMT) From: Joe Email: None To: Jim Subject: To Judge Message:

Somehow, somewhere, in the not too distant past, someone got it in their head that it was wrong for people to pass moral judgement on each other. I'm pretty sure this all started in the swinging sixities when people really pushed the envelope on doing their 'own thing' and not getting 'hung up' about anyone else's. While I know there has been this attitude, it's a perversion of what was originally intended, and I don't think it came from the communal sixties, but more from the 'me-decade' of the 70s and the 'greed is good' decade of the 80s. The 60s were really all about making moral judgments about war, the enviroment, civil rights, discrimination, etc. It was largely a reaction to the conformity of the 50s with unquestioning patriotism, leaders above criticism, the conformity of the social order, etc. Also, I think the origin of the idea was very laudable, criticising, people, governments or institutions, who were making judgments about other people, but pretending, or deceiving themselves, that that wasn't what they were doing. It was a reaction to people being 'judged' for non-conformity, or being 'judged', simply because they belong to a certain group, race, etc. I think it was the 80s where all this really took off and got the implications you mention. It's individualism gone extreme. And I think it was then that it took on a new age tinge.

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Date: Thurs, Mar 22, 2001 at 20:02:09 (GMT) From: Pat Conlon Email: None To: Joe Subject: Excellent analysis, Joe Message:

I also see that a lot of the smudging of value judgements and tolerance taken to extremes arose out of desgregation to the point where totally unacceptable behavior has become the nornm in schools. What started as a sincere attempt to get rid of RACIAL discrimination then became the politically correct slogan NO discrimination at all. And no discrimination leads to chaos and the rule of the mob.

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Date: Thurs, Mar 22, 2001 at 18:37:32 (GMT) From: Pat Conlon Email: None To: Jim Subject: Drawing the line, Jim Message:

Well, thanks for taking the time to answer me in so much detail. You said: I don't think I'm different than you or anyone. It's just a matter of where you draw the line. What offends YOUR ear? What semantic smudging won't you take sitting down? ''Different than really offends my ear.'' But that is a grammatical not semantical error. I prefer ''different from.'' But my biggest objection to 'semantic smudging'' is, I think, the same as yours: insincerity or coyness such as the New Age usgaes of words like ''judge.'' If it were used biblically (to try, condemn and sentence) then it is indeed a heavy responsibility and one must expect to be judged accordingly. ''Judge ye that ye be not judged'' doen't mean ''do not judge.'' It means ''If you judge expect to be judged in return.'' In New Age terms it is used as a cop out to allow for smudging. It may have arisen sincerely enough in the age of desegregation but eventually became irritatingly stupid insofar as we are now expected not to have any discrimination or discernment whatsoever. In the end I judge a person's language not by semantics but by sincerity. The rest of my post may have been a bit over the top. I tend to experiment here as I am not getting paid for it and it is not a legal document. I don't mind being if my experiments are failures. Thanks again, Jim.

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Date: Fri, Mar 23, 2001 at 13:48:23 (GMT) From: jnaet Email: None To: Pat Conlon Subject: may i jump in? Message:

it occurs to me that the meaning of ':judge ye, that ye be not judged' is more an admonishment, or a wise piece of counsel, to weild the responsibility of being put in a position to have to render a judgement, very circumspectfully, so that when you do arrive at your judgement and hand it down, that it be so impeccable and so fair that none can criticize it, or find flaw, fault or objection to it. translate it into modern language: 'judge ye' is a command, with the verb adressed to you these days we dont voice the 'you' after the verb. usually we say 'if you judge' or 'when you judge'. 'judge ye, that..' today is rendered with an added qualitive 'so' we get 'if you judge, judge so that..' and 'ye be not judged' ye=you be not judged= to be judged implies to be judged by others, i e, to be criticized, found fault with, disliked, thought unfair, rejected, disagreed with. 'judge ye, that ye be not judged' thus translates into modern language as 'if/when you judge, do it so that none can find fault, disagree with, take issue with,criticize your manner at arriving at, and handing down, your judgement' which seems to me the soundest counsel and meaning to i that i have heard yet.

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Date: Sat, Mar 24, 2001 at 03:33:22 (GMT) From: Pat Conlon Email: None To: jnaet Subject: janet, long-winded but good conclusion NT Message:

j

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Date: Fri, Mar 23, 2001 at 01:23:54 (GMT) From: Jim Email: None To: Pat Conlon Subject: Different THAN vs. Different FROM Message:

Oxford: 'In sense 1 different from is generally regarded as the most acceptable collocation; to is common in less formal British use; than is established in US use and also found in British use, esp. when followed by a clause, e.g. I am a different person than I was a year ago.'

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Date: Fri, Mar 23, 2001 at 01:46:11 (GMT) From: Pat Conlon Email: None To: Jim Subject: Different THAN vs. Different FROM, Jim Nitpicker Message:

''Different than'' is used all the time in USA. It grates on my ears. The sentence that you gave as an example (''I am a different person than I was a year ago.'') however is not as ugly sounding because there is an interposing noun, ''person.'' ''I am different than I was a year ago,'' is really clunky. The word ''than'' is shorthand for ''from...that.'' ''I am different from the person that I was a year ago.'' But I am not a fanatical usage purist. Haven't you enjoyed some of my neologisms? Others seem to have. Pat, the Irish Joycian neologist, he wishes.

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Date: Thurs, Mar 22, 2001 at 10:49:10 (GMT) From: Abi Email: None To: Pat Conlon Subject: Don't knock Karl Marx Message:

Eleanor Marx didn't suicide because of her father! She married Edward Aveling who led her a merry dance. And let's not forget it was Marx who said 'religion is the opiate of the people'. Not his fault the pigs took over the farm. Abi who weeps at his grave at Highgate and likes shadow boxing in Platos cave

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Date: Sat, Mar 24, 2001 at 07:02:31 (GMT) From: such Email: None To: Abi Subject: Groucho:'Don't you know there's no Sanity Clause?' Message:

nt

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Date: Thurs, Mar 22, 2001 at 18:42:08 (GMT) From: Pat Conlon Email: None To: Abi Subject: Don't knock Karl Marx - I don't really, Abi Message:

That was a cheap dig. I was a Marxist for many years and some people still accuse me of it but my nature does not take kindly to totalitarian philosophy any more than it does to totalitarian religions (such as gurism) or politics. When I first went to Highgate to visit his tomb in 1968 when I was 21 I was seduced by a famous TV actor who suddenly popped up from behind the tomb and made his moves on me.

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Date: Thurs, Mar 22, 2001 at 05:23:21 (GMT) From: Joe Email: kevjo@mindspring.com To: Everyone Subject: Exit Counseling --- How do you get it? Message:

La-Ex and Katie D, have been talking down below about counselors or therapists who might be available to work with people leaving the Maharaji cult. It sort of seems like the website is good for providing information, the Forum is good for reading what people are saying and seeing there are others who have gone through the same thing, and maybe be able to test the waters anonymously to raise issues or concerns. But I think most people need somebody to talk to with the training, as well as an understanding of cults (preferably THIS cult), as well, to help sort through all this. As I said below, when I left the cult in 1983, even the Bay Area, which is supposed to be therapist-paradise, it was hard to find a therapist who could help, although I'm sure there are more now. I remember Joy and I found this guy Phil Kushman, through an ex-premie who left before we did, and Phil had organized an 'ex-members group' for ex-cult members only, with no therapists that Joy and I went to. We met in a church in Berkeley. Phil also did therapy one-on-one with many of us. I found the group a lot more helpful than sessions with Phil, which I ended after a few months, and then got into some more heavy-duty therapy. One of the things the group did was dispell the 'exceptionalism' that is inherent in cult programming. You know, the idea that THIS cult is better than THAT cult and the group I was in probably isn't really a cult, or maybe not as bad. Once you sit in a room with a bunch of ex-Moonies, you see pretty quickly that there are more similarities than differences. It's confronting, but very helpful. Phil was knowledgeable about cults in general, and that was good, but it was shear luck that I found him and the group. Now we are all older, and I'm sure there are ex-premies who are therapists, or could become therapists for this kind of situation. La-Ex says he knows one person who is an ex-premie therapist and does exit counseling. But it would be great if we could uncover other people who might do the same thing for people coming through here. I don't know if the numbers are going to keep increasing, but I have a strong belief they will. The walls seem to be crumbling and more people are going to need to be able to talk about this. And maybe there are some ex-premies here or lurking who might be able to do that as well. Also, it might be possible to have the 'group' therapy aspect on line, maybe moderated by a therapist. I just see people who are leaving, or considering leaving the cult and what turmoil is going on. It would be great if we could locate resources for them. Does anyone have any ideas? You can email me if you don't want to post publicly. Joe

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Date: Thurs, Mar 22, 2001 at 15:32:35 (GMT) From: Katie H. Email: None To: Joe Subject: One thing that really helped me Message:

Hi Joe - I think your idea about compiling a list of formal or informal exit counselors is a great idea. I did want to share something else that has really helped me, although it might not work for everyone. I have been in an e-mail group with four other women who I met on this forum for over two years. This group has been GREAT - and sometimes a lot better than talking to a therapist (although of course not a substitute). All the women in the group were/are at about the same phase of exiting, and about at the same stage in our personal lives, so we really can provide a lot of support to each other. Most of us have now met at least once in 'the Real World', which has also been a great experience. This might be a unique situation, but I encourage other people to try it. We found that it works best when the group is quite small (four, five, or six, people), but not TOO small (two people tends to be too small), and when the people in the group are willing to be open about themselves and accepting of each other. Also, you have to have time to write e-mail! The Recent Exes forum was an attempt to formalize this type of group experience - but the forum format seems a bit too public in some ways. (For certain things, it is better). Also, I personally liked the 'women-only' e-mail group because I don't have that much contact with other women in my daily life. I can tell there are people here that feel an affinity for each other and who are in the same phase of exiting, so they might want to try this. You can start out with just three people and see what happens - how the e-mail chemistry is... Again, I recommend that you don't make the e-mail group too large or it will be difficult to get to know each other. (I've also had good experiences connecting two exes in the same situation - two women who were married to current premies.) Take care, Katie H.

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Date: Thurs, Mar 22, 2001 at 08:02:22 (GMT) From: such Email: None To: Joe Subject: Fostering a healthy and safe environment Message:

Joe, I think developing an international referral list of knowledgeable professional counselling sources would be a good idea. Also, having an occasional [or regular] recovery/exit discussion group on-line at pre-scheduled times is fine [we tried it, and it was very nice], but then there is always the attendent risk that as people bare their feelings and open up, someone will just come in and flame/trample on them, or inject peer pressure, personal politics or other negative stuff -- which is Very harmful. Also, anyone with an HMO or national health plan should be able to get some mental health counselling. There's no stigma in that, whatsoever. When a person leaves a cult, depending on their degree of involvement, they may be feeling a lot of pain and vulnerability and really need someone to talk to, open up to - non-judgmentally, in a healthy and safe environment with no hidden agendas. That's another reason why it is important for this Forum to become a place where such situations are understood and respected by all - with loving kindness, patience, and tolerance. Each of us can still learn something about consciousness-raising, listening, and mutual respect, after all. Hopefully, positive and healthy steps have been made - and we are proceeding on the right track. (That is my own heartfelt wish, anyway.) Peace and lentils,

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Date: Thurs, Mar 22, 2001 at 07:46:15 (GMT) From: Abi Email: abray@murdoch.edu.au To: Joe Subject: Exit Counseling --- How do you get it? Message:

Joe, I think you've raised some very important issues. Sadly, it's true that not many therapists are trained in dealing with the emotional, mental, sexual, social and moral damage associated with cults. I suppose you could apply a crude co-dependecy model which would certainly cover many aspects but I really do think we're dealing with brainwashing and that goes beyond concepts of fostered dependency etc. There might be cult watch groups around who could direct people to therapists who have some experience in these things. Or community spaces where self-help groups could be set up. In terms of on-line support maybe a confidential space could be established where people could discuss issues. There is always the sense that EV are watching here like a voodoo Big Brother. I'm certainly happy to offer my personal support to any women who have been abused in any way. I'm not a trained therapist but I have a PhD in the medical and social history of eating disorders and women's issues around body image. And more importantly perhaps, I certainly went through it myself and did a lot of therapy and reading on this subject. So I can offer support if needed. E-mail address above. Abi

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Date: Thurs, Mar 22, 2001 at 23:43:03 (GMT) From: Katie Darling Email: darlingwave@aol.com To: Abi Subject: Exit Counseling --- How do you get it? Message:

Here's some quick thoughts on what I found particularly helpful in working with people (not only premies) exiting cults. I'm personally mostly on sabbatical rebuilding my bod, and not available any more for this, although I did it for years. The trouble with going to people for therapy who don't have any experience in a cult is that they can occasionally (not always) be too judgmental, without really understanding. Then the exiting person just gets a subtle experience of being fixed and shamed by an authority figure... same old same old... Here's some quick thoughts on what I found particularly helpful in working with people (not only premies) exiting cults. **Some of the stuff that needs to get cleared from the cult experience is similar to an addiction problem. One becomes addicted to the cult highs even though many other parts of one's life are falling apart. A person may transfer to another addiction (substances, for example) when leaving if the underlying roots of the addiction aren't addressed. *** Talking of addictiion...There is usually some resisted emotion or belief that holds a whole pattern of addiction in place. I've played with some of my therapist buddies at actually listing addictive substances according to the emotion that they help a person avoid (e.g. marijuana = resisted grief, alcohol = fear, coke = rage, chocolate = heartbreak or even heart-opening). I'm not being moralistic here, BTW, I'm talking about ADDICTION, which hurts oneself and others. I wonder what emotions being a premie helps one avoid? I think it is different for each person, but the sensation of personal power would seem to be a contender... and grief, fear, rage, heartbreak...? *** It's really important to tease out the various layerings of beliefs involved in a person's cult addiction. For example, there may be a layer of what we now consider unhealthy beliefs inculcated directly from MJ. This Forum is a really good place to have a lot of these beliefs reflected on and deconstructed. Then there is a deeper level of personal belief that makes one susceptible to these in the first place. Throwing off the first level of beliefs doesn't necessarily mean one has thrown off the second. For example, let's say one has (perhaps unconsciously) the underlying belief about oneself that 'I'm no good,' or that 'my personal power is too much' (and there are innumerable childhood scenarios that might tend to support such beliefs, and there may be innate tendencies too - as per some twin personality studies). Then you come along and run into MJ and it's a match! You know in your heart that he is your Lord and what he says is true, because he is speaking your deepest 'knowing' about life and yourself. It's really good to have some kind of counselling that goes deeper than just debriefing the cult experience, but also causes one to delve into the underlying patterns that brought one into it. *** It's really, really important to validate the positive experiences a person has had. Otherwise, a counsellor, as the new temporary guiding person, is once again asking the person to deny a part of themselves that has been real, just as MJ did to us. Some people on the Forum do this to premies who are wavering, probably with wellmeaning intent, but it's a bit like the birds grabbing the baby turtles as they stumble towards the ocean, as I think Joy put it...Then you just get the ole pendulum effect where people get very confused after a while and then go numb and kind of disintegrate inside, invalidating their own past positive experiences that THEY created through their effort, faith, etc... And then a person feels they have to jettison this sincere, spiritual or idealistic world-serving part of themselves. I have worked with more people in this kind of confused space than directly on their way out. *** The best person to work with an ex-premie is an ex-premie, because you can give the most realistic validation of anything the client wants to throw up as a unique, special, inarguable proof of the specialness of MJ. You've been there, done that, felt that. You are hopefully experiencing something better now. You are very helpful to an exiting person in this dual role. I just had an idea. Perhaps if there are local groups of ex-premies, they could hold an occasional invitation-only group meeting for premies considering leaving, or who left whenever, but feel they may have unresolved issues. Perhaps one or two fairly skilled people could coordinate it. These kinds of things work best, I think, with skilled facilitation by someone who is more recovered, and a lot of grass roots support where people can get to just speak and be heard, without being 'corrected.' Actually, I'd be willing to do an occasional group like this in the SF Bay area along with some of my esteemed buddies from here, whom I'm looking forward to meeting very soon... Even one time might be valuable (don't want to commit to a new job as I'm sliding out of the one I have!). Also, I could make a few suggestions about a minimalist format that might work. I bet some of you other therapist-counsellor types could too. I think this is really, really worth talking about. I haven't lost my passion for real service, and I don't think many of us have... and helping people who are trapped in a limited, fearful mindset is a real service. Yes, yes, katie darling, and so is taking care of your nasty cough a service! Yes mom! Love Katie Darling.

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Date: Fri, Mar 23, 2001 at 22:33:12 (GMT) From: D_Thomas Email: None To: Katie Darling Subject: Basic Assumptions Message:

Katie, isn't there an implicit assumption with therapy that what you have experienced out of the ordinary is a hallucination or delusion. If I have had experiences of Knowledge is that a delusion? But what if those experiences were actually real? Am I considered 'cured' when I no longer have those experiences? David

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Date: Sat, Mar 24, 2001 at 16:33:35 (GMT) From: Katie H. Email: None To: D_Thomas Subject: Basic Assumptions - depends on the therapist Message:

Actually, the really GOOD therapists that I've had have been spiritually-oriented people (I didn't pick them for that, it just ended up that way.) Two of them were traditional, yet open-minded, Christians; and the other two were more into alternative spirituality and/or non-traditional therapy. Anyway, I've had some 'out-of-the-ordinary' experiences which I've spoken about it counseling, and I never found myself discounted by any of these people. However, one thing that all these people had in common is that they viewed my 'out-of-the-ordinary' experiences as coming from deep within myself. I doubt that most good therapists would allow you to give credit to M for your own experiences! It's good to 'interview' therapists - go to one session with them (first session is often free), and find someone who won't discount you, and with whom you can work productively. Take care, D - Katie H.

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Date: Sat, Mar 24, 2001 at 01:03:44 (GMT) From: Katie Darling Email: None To: D_Thomas Subject: Basic Assumptions Message:

Well, exactly! That's why premies would do better with a more open-minded form of care.

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Date: Sat, Mar 24, 2001 at 06:58:46 (GMT) From: such Email: None To: Katie Darling Subject: some of my counsellor friends 'meditate',too (nt Message:

nt

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Date: Fri, Mar 23, 2001 at 05:08:03 (GMT) From: Mercedes Email: None To: Katie Darling Subject: Hola querida Message:

Thank you Katie for you insight. I totally support everything you've said. I have a wonderful therapist who specializes in addiction and cult exiting and believe me it works. I can share that after a 3 day treatment program with her on codependence so many thing started to become clear and this was one of them, painful as it has been I am glad for the progress. Hasta pronto, cuidate mucho. Mercedes

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Date: Fri, Mar 23, 2001 at 03:31:58 (GMT) From: such Email: None To: Katie Darling Subject: very good! also, some counsellors have agendas (mt Message:

mt

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Date: Thurs, Mar 22, 2001 at 03:20:56 (GMT) From: Pat Conlon Email: None To: Everyone Subject: FYI: Hippie premie reports from Portland Message:

pat, i had the most wonderful time at the event...maharaji was so funny..he served notice on anybody that was trying to tell him what to do (elan vital).....that he was a nonconfomist.....that he was free...and that he wasn't going to follow their schedules....instead of going to the knowledge review, which they scheduled.... he said countries that have peace will have war and countries that have war will have peace...'i'd like to see the faces of the people who try to edit this video'....he said i have the satellite now and the dvd and it will be released very soon....Pat, you would have loved it he put the cult and the churchladies all in their places....i feel that he misses you and did that for you....he even alluded to the fact that now we have the satellite, the communities aren't necessary....i can't wait to see this video....i'm sure that there will be a shake up at elan vital...everybody seems to be taping the satellite videos because i didn't see many premies buying them.... i ran into a dozen people from the 70's and the one who is in charge of visions catalogue and a former instructor, wants me to send her some of my mandalas and she said that she needs a front cover for the catalogue.....i told her that i was not going to send them over the computer because 'they retain the rights' she said that i should send it to her via the mail and that i would retain all rights and that they would only have the use of it....so i can't wait for maharaji to see my mandalas....they are so depictive of knowledge........

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Date: Sat, Mar 24, 2001 at 04:56:35 (GMT) From: la-ex Email: None To: Pat Conlon Subject: exactly!Goes along with startegies#1,3,4... Message:

Pat-to quote Margaret Singer, on the 6 strategies used by charismatic leaders to preserve their authority: 1)to keep followers off balance and their attention on the words and wishes of the leader, they may alter the doctrines and policies very suddenly. The shifts have a levelling effect that reasserts the superiority of the leader to the followers. 3)By condemning the acts of others, the leader can divert attention from their own failings and those of the group and provide a convenient excuse for the groups troubles. 4)Dissent is stifled through the careful control of information and the public use of ridicule and other means of peer pressure. Any apparent source of alternative leadership arising within the group is marginalized or simply ejected. WHO does he think EV is? (Don't his kids work for EV?) Isn't that one of his arms or legs,trying to do propagation?

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Date: Sat, Mar 24, 2001 at 05:49:11 (GMT) From: Pat Conlon Email: None To: la-ex Subject: la-ex, this thinking is so typical of PWKs Message:

They know something is wrong but cannot bring themselves to see who it is who is making it wrong. I confess I did the same for the whole of last year while sitting on the local participation committee. I don't know what it takes to suddenly see that the rot starts at the top. Probably free discussion which you cannot do with PWKs. Thank god I had two people to talk to who saw the same problem.

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Date: Sat, Mar 24, 2001 at 06:54:01 (GMT) From: such Email: None To: Pat Conlon Subject: bet the others thought you were 'in your mind' (nt Message:

nt

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Date: Thurs, Mar 22, 2001 at 17:53:24 (GMT) From: Joe Email: None To: Pat Conlon Subject: Extreme self-delusion Message:

Anybody who thinks for more than a second, that Elan Vital does ANYTHING without Maharaji's explicit approval is insane. The idea that Elan Vital is 'telling' Maharaji to do anything, or even has independent ideas about how to do anything without his direction is absurd. That this person, after all this time, actually believes what he is saying, is just amazing. I remember around 1979 and 1980, Maharaji was bad-mouthing DLM/ELan Vital then. I remember Dennis Marciniak, el presidente of DLM coming back from meetings with M very devestated. But the fact was DLM did nothing but try to carry out what M said he wanted, and then when that ultimately failed, DLM, and all the dedicated people in it, were the target. Seems some things never change. How do people in Elan Vital, continue on taking shit like that?

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Date: Thurs, Mar 22, 2001 at 16:28:25 (GMT) From: donner Email: None To: Pat Conlon Subject: FYI: Hippie premie reports from Portland Message:

speaking about m's comments about ev and being his own man same old story...first he creates dlm, duo, ev etc and then tears it down...puts hard working folks in their places, basicaly disrespecting their dedication creating confusion...all furthering the need to be glued only to him...and again, the communities are not needed?? only him.... ignore each other, we might confuse each other share our doubts and concerns with each other, oh my..wouldn't that be awful, next thing you know, we will not need him...only our communities and the people around us. what a novel idea. m is a good a trashing all else but that single pointed connection to him.

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Date: Fri, Mar 23, 2001 at 00:59:38 (GMT) From: Connie Email: None To: donner Subject: Glued to m and your TV Message:

It has/is going beyond ignoring each other, to isolating people from each other. It will be just you and your TV. Except for approved personnel no one will know what is going on, just what is screened. At least having videos at a hall gave you a perspective about the state of the community, and how people were. When halls are totally done away with, you could be told anything i.e., 'there are 50,000,000 aspirants waiting to take k', 'everyone's happy', and would not have any way of assessing the truth of it. It was one of the things I found very disturbing, when I really thought about it. Before doing this I had to first overcome my disdain for the community, which, in some respects, I was surprised I had. I saw that I didn't think too highly of most people, and even though part of it, seperated myself by my hidden, quiet superior attitude of 'they are so cultish, I'm not. It's just me and m'. So at first it suited me fine when I heard about the move to home viewing. I would never have to see those endless empty chairs again at a video event that I had grown to hate, or the same old people trying to hide the disappointment in their eyes, doing the same old things. Where did I get this attitude from? There was something worrying me about the whole thing though, and I started to question where isolating everyone from each other would lead. All the talk here about m's habit of shifting blame, playing people off against each other, and us blaming each other, have been very helpful in seeing cult behaviour in myself, that I was totally unaware of. Incredible!

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Date: Fri, Mar 23, 2001 at 14:34:19 (GMT) From: janet Email: None To: Connie Subject: this is exactly how i came to turn away! Message:

when the video thing started i 84, i just stopped going. period. no nightly satsang, even videos, since 1984. i had 4 premie friends. we never discussed maharaji except in the past tense. in 1993 i utterly lost touch with premies and satsang. didnt know where they were, the videos, the halls, nada. had my old tapes and photos, thats all. imagine my disbeleif when i found out four years later that there had been programs two blocks from my house, three times a week, all that time, and i never knew. so went once or twice. it was exactly as you and pat describe it. cold. lifeless. selfish. no humanity. no community. sterile. eek. I stopped going. moved out the the beach in 97. still didnt know where to go. found out where the local hall was. went to a couple of satellite feeds. unbelievable emptiness. no one talked. no one smiled. no one knew me and vice versa. couldnt repeat the experience. found out about how dish network worked. measured myself against it. pondered if i wanted to try. concluded 'ya know what, rawat? you've finally succeeded in pricing me out of your market. you've left me. you have taken your game where i can not follow. i always knew you considered me one of your bongos. i never had money to tuck into your gold silk striptease g strings. but i made it to every festival for years. i came to see you. i hung on. i saved a place for you no one else could ever sit in. and now you've just severed me. i have been culled from the herd and knackered. the party moves on to higher ground without me. i can't even reach the first rung.' and i conceived of such a hatred in that moment. but i still went to santa monica one more time. saw the old faces. did the old techniques.listened to him grate on and on, painfully. whatever it was, it was not me anymore. it was phantasmagorical. i didnt know those people. even the ones i once thought were friends, going back years. they spoke to me as if they never met me before, had important things to hurry off to, more important people to turn and see. i was dressed well. i didnt smell. i just did meditation. Ira woods. art evans,. gurucharnanand. bihari singh. prem pal himself. not people. not human anymore. snobs. shallow. phonies. it only sharpened the hatred. they treat me like this, after i came 28 years with them all. i went home early, anxious to get back to the things that were truly important to me. my cats. my son. my real friends. my garden. i hope they all spontaneously combust.

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Date: Fri, Mar 23, 2001 at 14:48:07 (GMT) From: Connie Email: None To: janet Subject: this is exactly how i came to turn away! Message:

Hi Janet In your post you said of m 'you left me'. That is how I felt. While everyone might say I left m, I know I tried my best, I believed in him and loved him. I was faithful to him and knowledge. It was he who left me, he was unfaithful to my sincerity. I am glad I could finally see this.

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Date: Fri, Mar 23, 2001 at 01:52:04 (GMT) From: Pat Conlon Email: None To: Connie Subject: Connie, I guess us new exes went through very Message:

similar experiences. Like you, I was pleased when I first learned that MTV was going to come straight to me and I would not have to mix with the ''cultish'' church ladies. Then one day I thought: ''But I want community. I like people. Where is this love that was going to unite the world?'' The penny dropped. He does not want us to love each other. He wants us to love only him. Krishna be damned. I feel sorry for the gopis.

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Date: Fri, Mar 23, 2001 at 06:47:57 (GMT) From: Connie Email: None To: Pat Conlon Subject: Pat, new exes, old gopis Message:

All this talk about what m said in Portland and krishna started me remembering. In Portland he said that enigmatic statement about how there will be war where there is peace, and peace where there is war. A statement like this has a slight apocalyptic hint. Everyone loves these type of psuedo predictions. Gives people a cause and mission. What the hell does it mean? The 'gopis' will probably interpret it as meaning times are going to get tough, they will be tested, and if doubts come up, will remember statements like that to renew their faith, and affirm to themselves that he knows what everyone is going through, and sincerely stick to their devotion to pass the test. Is it the 'world' that gets stronger, or is it simply that one becomes aware of things that personally disturb them? It is comforting to think personal discrimination and 'doubt' has a grander, more profound meaning. With our Christian indroctrinated culture, deep inside us, we love that stuff, it's like mother's milk. Back in the heyday of the Krishna movement in the west, when Prabuphada was alive, I remember something about a very apocalyptic view of the way the world would go. It justified their massive fund raising efforts. I think it was something like this. The world was going to hell. It was a cesspool of darkness and madness. Universal 'Krisha consciousness' was of prime importance. Anyone just hearing the chant 'hari krishna', eating food prepared with 'krishna consciousness', buying k.c. merchandise, would have their consciousness raised. By doing this it gave the true devotees a fighting chance. When the end of the world came, it would not be pleasant, for anyone. It and almost everyone and thing in it would be obliterated for all time. The only ones truely surviving would be a chosen few with the highest krishna consciousness, who would ascend to the land of honey, yogurt and music and be with krishna. Those devotees who didn't make the grade in consciousness raising, would kindly be spared annihilation. They would be stuck out there in the universe somewhere in this dank, dark, cold cave, mumbling and stumbling around forever, barely able to remember the chant. What a plight! PS The whole story about Arjuna did not just encompass the Bhagavad Gita, where the discussion between him and Krishna before the battle was recorded. It was part of a much larger epic, the Mahabharata. At the end of the Mahabharata, after Krishna was shot and killed, Arjuna never made it to Indra's heaven. Only his brother did, though they were all eventually reunited in the end to live in perpetual bliss. The human play between the gopis and Krishna is used as an analogy of the love possible between man and god. It played a small part in the overall story of Krishna, but it did engender a huge array of devotional cults in India. When I think about the different parts that make up the whole story of Krishna, the gopis, Arjuna and his brothers, and the different interpretions through history of which is more important, that story about a few blind people feeling different parts of the elephant comes to mind. Each one was convinced that the part they were feeling was what a whole elephant looked like. Gee, some of these stories come in handy!

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Date: Fri, Mar 23, 2001 at 09:32:26 (GMT) From: Pat Conlon Email: None To: Connie Subject: Connie, here's a letter I just sent to a old gopi Message:

Connie, I am going to show you a letter that I just sent to one of the old style gopis who does not like talking about his stuff but who I know believes it. Here it is. Dear Bruce, I'm green with envy - six hours of meditation. I haven't done that since I started the business. I'm lucky if I can get two hours a day. But actually that's enough for me nowadays. I like having financial independence while I am in this world just as Maharaji does. After all I am still alive not dead yet and I do enjoy having a good life. I thoroughly enjoy maya and see god's incredible beauty in it as reflection of the love, the energy that created this world. Most of the ex-premies are like me and are too intellectual to be Krishnaites, which is basically what M offers - bhakti yoga, affection for the master, darshan and shaktipat. I'm a wondering, solitary saddhu who prefers not to play that bhakti yoga game. I just prefer to practice the dhayna yoga and have always loved meditation. I did three of the kriyas (prakash, shabd, naam techniques) for two years before I met M and then Ashokanand really helped me with the talabya (fourth) before he left and went over to Bal Bhagwan Ji. So I'm not into worshipping a master. I prefer to get high with a little help from my friends in satsang. I would love to have satsang with you but I don't believe that we should just be listening to M's satsang all the time. It is twisting the path out of synch. We are meant to have satsang where we sing the praises of god with music and dancing and poetry. I only joined up with M because he promised to bring peace on earth and I thought that by now we would have had a beautiful Elan Vital and all be brothers and sisters in love and peace but M is Krishna who is not interested in uniting man into a family but simply wants his gopis to worship him. I actually left Maharaji when he stopped satsang in 1984. The most beautiful experiences I ever had (even better than darshan) were satsang with the Indian premies when they danced gharbas and sang bhajans in South Africa and united black and white all in love and joy. Then he started the video thing and told premies not to give satsang. I went back last year to do service doing prachar because I love Knowledge so much and believe that it can bring happiness to people. It took me a year to find out that M is not interested in bringing peace to this world. He does not want communities and want people to love one another. He is encouraging people to be selfish and isolated from one another. The broadcasts were the final straw for me when he said that there is now no need for community at all. It is out of whack. There are still a few idealistic premies around like you but most of them have become just like him, rich, isolated and selfish. Devotees need to be in touch with their guru. He has set himself up as the messiah. He will fall from that height. It is too high of a place for a yogi to place himself. We were all created equal and in the image of god. He has taken on too many gopis and cannot satisfy them all. There are 50,000 premies in The west and only 5,000 keep in touch with him anymore. These people were at one time in the 60s and 70s the most beautiful, idealistic and dedicated people in the world. People like you who had been involved in the anti-war movement or me who went to jail because of my stand against apartheid. We were the world's most idealistic people. We had a dream. My dream did not include multi-million dollar homes in Malibu, yachts, and hundreds of cars all for one greedy little Hindu from Hardwar. Mata Ji was right. He is selfish and irresponsible. Prempal may be a very powerful yogi. He may even be the reincarnation of Krishna, an avatar, Balyogeshwar (born lord of yogis) as the Indian premies call him but we are all gods and if one of the gods is naughty the others must tell him. And he is being very naughty. He has turned Knowledge into a money-making religion. I do not criticize those premies who choose to worship him. That is their prerogative. But I find it distasteful to have a master who is not modest, good, kind and gentle. And if you think he is gentle, think again. He twice closed the ashrams after he had promised the premies that they had that shelter for life. It destroyed many people financially who had given every penny that they had to him and some even killed themselves. This is immoral. I am not a fan of Krishnaism and prefer the gentle teachings of more modest masters, love one another, forgive, share, and be kind. The cult that he has created is no better than the scientologists. It is cold and uncaring. He created Elan Vital. If he is so well respected and loved why would the devotees that he loves the most and keeps closest to him be doing something that he does not want or be such creepy yuppie assholes. It took me a long time to figure that out because of the love and affection that I had for him. They say love is blind. Well, I sure was blind. So blind I couldn't see that his hand-picked managers inside of Elan Vital are a reflection of him. Enough. But I just wanted you to see why I am not following him anymore. I don't care if he is Krishna. I am a democratic person and believe that in this free world there is no place for a messiah or master. He needs to sit on a committe with all of us and come down off his high throne. He is not the only source of satsang and satsang - the coming together of brother and sister in love - is the most sacred thing on earth. Gurus come and go.

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Date: Thurs, Mar 22, 2001 at 15:39:50 (GMT) From: Katie H. Email: None To: Pat Conlon Subject: This makes me sad Message:

No offense to the person who wrote it, who sounds like he/she is very sincere, but I do feel for him/her. I have heard people say things like this about M for the last 25 years - at least. He likes to take the stance of rebelling against the organization HE created - the organization who did all the work of setting up this event, I might add. And the people who 'edit the videos' - don't they work for him, too? Yeah, yeah, Elan Vital is the bad guy, but Maharaji is OK. And he's not going to do what EV tells him to do - wow, what a rebel! Wonder what would happen if EV didn't do what HE told them to do. Of course, it's 'blissful' to be put down by the 'master', but sheesh! Thanks for posting this, Pat - Katie

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Date: Fri, Mar 23, 2001 at 02:15:24 (GMT) From: Helen Email: None To: Katie H. Subject: This makes me sad Message:

Me too. It's like M knows what to say to help ease a person's doubts but it's all a canned speech. Poor guy thinking M would give a shit about his mandalas.

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Date: Thurs, Mar 22, 2001 at 19:17:37 (GMT) From: Pat Conlon Email: None To: Katie H. Subject: Joe, Donner, Katie. EV v Rev Rawat is THE strategy Message:

It is Krishna and the jealous gopis all tearing each others' hair out all over again. He never wanted us to love one another or to create a neighborly community. He is mad and has driven his darshan-juju addicts mad. The cult is is a primitve throwback and can be understood completely if one realizes that he thinks he is Krishna. No amount of revisionism will solve that delusion of his or his gopis.

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Date: Thurs, Mar 22, 2001 at 13:39:35 (GMT) From: bill--'everyone else is Email: None To: Pat Conlon Subject: stupid and no one, not even my mom can stop me'.nt Message:

sdgh

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Date: Thurs, Mar 22, 2001 at 06:25:32 (GMT) From: Richard Email: None To: Pat Conlon Subject: Blissful, satellite dish replaces arti tray /nt Message:

nt

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Date: Thurs, Mar 22, 2001 at 16:58:23 (GMT) From: Francesca Email: None To: Richard Subject: Brilliant! the smarti dish n/t Message:

ha ha

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Date: Thurs, Mar 22, 2001 at 04:47:56 (GMT) From: Francesca Email: None To: Pat Conlon Subject: Is this our dear friend from Arcata Message:

whom I shall not out on the Forum? It sure sounds like him.

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Date: Thurs, Mar 22, 2001 at 05:47:54 (GMT) From: Pat Conlon Email: None To: Francesca Subject: Is this our dear friend from Arcata no but he sent Message:

pics of himself at the event and it is him who sends me daily emails to ''be grateful.''

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Date: Thurs, Mar 22, 2001 at 17:00:45 (GMT) From: Francesca Email: None To: Pat Conlon Subject: Daily e-mails??!!!!! Message:

How can you stand it? I think I would warn him that I was going to put a filter on his e-mail and block it like spam if he didn't cut it out! Yes, I too have these friends and family members that have a soft place deep in their heads that I can't seem to reach. There's cotton candy and unquestioned devotion in there. Sticky sticky.

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Date: Thurs, Mar 22, 2001 at 19:22:14 (GMT) From: Pat Conlon Email: None To: Francesca Subject: Daily e-mails? Yes, I have warned him I will block Message:

him but I feel a certain responsibility as it was me who brought him to Rev Rawat and he is dying of AIDS. But I keep him at arm's length and have done for many years as he is a fanatical gopi and does not have the intellectual capacity to thoroughly examine himself. One day enough will be enough and I will let him drown if he does not start thinking straight on his own.

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Date: Thurs, Mar 22, 2001 at 19:50:00 (GMT) From: Francesca Email: None To: Pat Conlon Subject: Sigh, compassion ... Message:

is always in fashion. At least with me dear. And I am such a nasty arrogant twit at times that it doesn't hurt much. But you will have to set boundaries as best you can. He was always so intuitive and almost psychic. I'm finding out that right-brained without left brained is a dangerous thing. Leads to lots of confusion. In the idea human specimen, those two sides and their functions were created for a reason. (Not to say that I fit that bill.) Francesca -- The dreamy artist who almost died from screechy Krishna gopi flute music is now glad for the machinists, accountants and other left brained influences on both sides of the family tree. Jai sacka blondes! --f

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Date: Thurs, Mar 22, 2001 at 20:10:40 (GMT) From: Pat Conlon Email: None To: Francesca Subject: But like many psychics he is also a WITCH Message:

That's why I am now officially a christian agnostic. I really do believe that the essence of christian ethics is the road to civilization. Many premies are amoral and detest each other like gopis scratching each others' eyes out to see Krishna. Maybe I should couch my argument as Apollo versus Dionysus for those who do not like the Christ v Krishna analogy. It is basically selfish demonic ecstasy vs loving thy neighbor.

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Date: Fri, Mar 23, 2001 at 03:18:08 (GMT) From: Joy Email: None To: Pat Conlon Subject: Selfish Premie Morality Message:

This apparent lack of ethics or morality amongst the premies was one of the major things which put me off, in the end. People would do just about ANYTHING if it was for M, or M requested it. No sense of personal accountability or moral judgment required. Very sick, in my opinion, and sad. It really was a rat race (rawrat race?). What an absolute RELIEF not to have to participate in that any longer. I STILL have the occasional nightmare about fighting others for close seats at a program. Where's the humanity in that, the kindness? (The Dalai Lama: 'My religion is kindness.') I do feel for your friend though (I remember him from smoking cigarettes with you guys on the front steps while satsang droned on in the SF ashram). Too bad he has to have such a pathetic belief system in his final days. It sounds almost as if he's trying to convince himself more than you that Prem Pal is the Lord. I send healing and best wishes his way.

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Date: Fri, Mar 23, 2001 at 03:30:00 (GMT) From: Katie Darling Email: None To: Joy Subject: Re the 'friend' Message:

I had a friend who died of cancer a couple of years back. In her last months she returned to a passionate relationship with MJ and kept showing everyone videos as they went to visit her. I missed this special opportunity though! I felt that it wasn't right to bust her if she was choosing this as the face of the divine to help her in her dying process. I'm sure the universe doesn't mind if you leave your body with the name of a fake guru on your lips.

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Date: Fri, Mar 23, 2001 at 03:23:59 (GMT) From: Pat Conlon Email: None To: Joy Subject: Selfish Premie Immorality -methinks the lady doth Message:

protest too much. Usually when the premies start with trying to bring me back into the fold, I feel they are preaching to themselves more than me. This guy, unfortunately never did have many morals, not at least ones that I was comfortable with. Too opportunistic and only when it was convenient.

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Date: Thurs, Mar 22, 2001 at 20:36:51 (GMT) From: G Email: None To: Pat Conlon Subject: premies detesting each other Message:

I remember being at a 'festival' (or whatever it was called at the time) in Europe. There was a crowd at an entrance and I was in the middle of that crowd. There was a lot of pushing going on, not outright pushing, but people invading each other's space, pressing against other people because they wanted to get in. They viewed other premies as being 'in their way'. There wasn't any love, not even common respect, happening. It was disgusting.

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Date: Thurs, Mar 22, 2001 at 20:45:50 (GMT) From: Pat Conlon Email: None To: G Subject: Grace race worse than rat race NT Message:

k

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Date: Thurs, Mar 22, 2001 at 05:25:15 (GMT) From: Mercedes Email: None To: Pat Subject: Just thinking.... Message:

...that he seems to thrive on rivalry, duality. Having to put someone or something down to be right, to be unique. It is sad, really. Mercedes

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Date: Thurs, Mar 22, 2001 at 19:24:30 (GMT) From: Pat Conlon Email: None To: Mercedes Subject: Mercedes he likes to see gopis jealously fighting Message:

It is a perverted and primitve religion which goes against everything that we value in civilized society.

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Date: Thurs, Mar 22, 2001 at 07:28:22 (GMT) From: Richard Email: None To: Mercedes Subject: M's kids help present a new promo video series Message:

A new 'aspects of knowledge' video series was showcased in Portland. Marolyn speaks on the tape, and Wadi, Daya plus one of the boys introduce each section. So the whole family is joining in on marketing now. Apparently this was very slick and overly scripted - made as some sort of infomercial. The satellite broadcast are now going to be free to anyone with Dish Network - middle of the night ol' Bubba's channel surfin' 'hey honey come here and check this dang thing out and bring me one of them long necks'.

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Date: Thurs, Mar 22, 2001 at 09:18:18 (GMT) From: Pat Conlon Email: None To: Richard Subject: M's kids help - this is horrible Message:

But I guess it's just showbiz as usual. After all most of the Malibu brats follow in their movie-star parents' footsteps. Captain Rawat the matinee idol and his mystical Krishna/Cleaver family!

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Date: Thurs, Mar 22, 2001 at 09:47:59 (GMT) From: Hanuman Email: None To: Pat Conlon Subject: M's kids help - this is horrible Message:

I think it's great, nothing can beat M!!!!!!

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Date: Thurs, Mar 22, 2001 at 11:04:35 (GMT) From: Tim Matheson Email: None To: Hanuman Subject: Welcome Hanu Man Message:

It's great to see someone else here who is not ashamed of LORD MAHARAJI's past or present BEHAVIOR. We love HIM no questions asked.

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Date: Thurs, Mar 22, 2001 at 10:13:56 (GMT) From: Pat Conlon Email: None To: Hanuman Subject: Hanuman is a monkey. Monkey see - monkey do Message:

Or as the chinese say all monkeys are liars but not all liars are monkeys. If you would like me to take you seriously then you will have to unmask yourself. I do not talk to anonymice. I may know you. Would you like me to check with the FA to trace you?

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Date: Fri, Mar 23, 2001 at 14:20:32 (GMT) From: Hanuman Email: None To: Pat Conlon Subject: Hanuman is a monkey. Monkey see - monkey do Message:

Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the law....

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Date: Sat, Mar 24, 2001 at 03:23:27 (GMT) From: Pat Conlon Email: None To: Hanuman Subject: Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the law... Message:

Are you a devotee of Aleister Crowley? But I guess that's the philosophy of Krishna-Rama-Rawat and his gopi-money-rats. No morals!

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Date: Thurs, Mar 22, 2001 at 02:39:42 (GMT) From: Pat Conlon Email: None To: Everyone Subject: Christianity v Maharajism/Krishnaism Message:

Many of the exes critique Rev Rawat from a decidedly Christian point of view. By that I mean they expect someone who sets themselves up to be a master to be good, kind, caring and modest. Maharajism is Krishnaism. Krishnaism has no such moral values. The master may be an arrogant drunken, lying, fornicating, thief and murderer and not even meditate and the gopis would still worship him. Krishanism is based entirely on getting high from the masters darshan. The master does not have to be special. He could in fact be the village idiot with Tourette's and a penchant for pedophilia. That is not important in Krishnaism. Only the darshan-juju drug fix is important to the guru addict. Krishnaism/Maharajism is a debased and outmoded religion which cannot appeal to any westerner who values the rule of law, democracy, neigborliness and common decency. It is for infantile masturbators of emotions, darshan drug addicts and other lazy, self-indulgent addicts of atavistic mysticism.

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Date: Fri, Mar 23, 2001 at 14:53:34 (GMT) From: hanuman Email: None To: Pat Conlon Subject: Christianity v Maharajism/Krishnaism Message:

i read a lot about democratic values on this forum recently ,that's why the US now have a president who was not elected by the people but by some fuckin' right wing supreme court bastards, right!!! you democratic people from the west interfere with any other nation who does not share your values of human rights and all that stuff.. the whole umma-islamic nation- is not gonna get bear with all your claims to have the superior view of the world, and that's just one bunch-a-people, there's others as well, i rather prefer a drunken immoral bastard as my teacher than all those hypocrite christian redneck type characters, mr academic conlon, that's why americans will always get their butt wet....the west is the best..alright, but the east is the beast......there will be peace in countries where there was war, and there will be war in counties where there was peace..it's YOU guys who want war, not M.... better watch out you might get a mighty backlash... i'm not threatening , just trying to explain a physical law..... PEACE, brother......

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Date: Fri, Mar 23, 2001 at 20:08:16 (GMT) From: Hal Email: None To: hanuman Subject: Christianity v Maharajism/Krishnaism Message:

Hi Man U Ham, Funny you deride those ol' christian fundamentalist redneck types because your post reminded me of them in vibe and content. You sound rather like a religious nut, fundamentalist , cult memeber you know? Hal Loosen up and deal with that anger, could be self disruptive and destructive man--- some meditation perhaps ?

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Date: Fri, Mar 23, 2001 at 03:12:07 (GMT) From: Deputy Dog Email: None To: Pat Conlon Subject: Pat, thanks for these thoughts! Message:

Man, you are batting a 1000 tonight. This, plus your post to Connie. Jeez! I keep saying, 'Why didn't I think of that!'

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Date: Fri, Mar 23, 2001 at 03:48:00 (GMT) From: Pat Conlon Email: None To: Deputy Dog Subject: Dog, I always wondered why I was a ''bad'' premie Message:

I was such an idealistic flower-child when I came to M and K and wanted the whole world to be drawn into a family of ecstatic love - the kind I had seen on acid. I eventually gave up my ideals because I thought the world was not ready for it and Rev Rawat knew better than me. I kind of dropped out for 17 years and just did my meditation and sent my checks ''to bring world peace and love.'' It took going back in and ''participating'' to cure me of any illusions that I had that Rawat wants to bring love into this world. I really went back because I loved meditating so much and thought I really wanted to help propagate it. It took me a year to realize that he does not really want to give K to everybody. There are 7 aspirants in SF whio have waited for 2 years but they are poor hippies and keep getting put off because they don't donate money. Slowly I am going back to my old ideals. I believe that the closest thing to a god that I can understand is love. BUt not love for an immoral guru. Love for each other. Kindness, forgiveness and neighborliness. I feel that the only PWKs left now are the ones who are only interested in themselves and all the idealists havev left. God, I just feel so happy to not have to try to fit my old flower-child heart into the weird cult that Rawat has created. I'm watching you Deputy because I know that you also are a true lover and a good man. Peace on earth to men of goodwill.

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Date: Fri, Mar 23, 2001 at 02:22:46 (GMT) From: Helen Email: None To: Pat Conlon Subject: Christianity v Maharajism/Krishnaism Message:

Yes I agree with you. It's a pernicious thing indeed. It ought to me another verse of Arti: Values, decency, judgment, philosophy, Give them to the lotus feet of love, Flush them all down the toilet of love, Throw away your love for your family, Give yourself up to poverty, That career was Maya anyway, Oh Jai Dev or Jai Satguru Dev

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Date: Sat, Mar 24, 2001 at 03:36:06 (GMT) From: Pat Conlon Email: None To: Helen Subject: Helen, I enjoyed your post about university Message:

Yes, we have a long tradition of good christians that beats anything Hindu.

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Date: Sat, Mar 24, 2001 at 15:02:30 (GMT) From: Helen Email: None To: Pat Conlon Subject: Helen, I enjoyed your post about university Message:

You know, I agree with you about Christians and Jews too! Who knew that Catholic University would awaken me from my premie dream? Though I could never be a Catholic (which is not the point anyway) I am grateful I went to school there. What a contrast in perspectives about service and intelligence. Maharaji missed the boat. His boat might have carried us for awhile but it's too flimsy to hold people for the long haul.

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Date: Fri, Mar 23, 2001 at 03:30:49 (GMT) From: Joy Email: None To: Helen Subject: Brilliant, Helen Message:

I love that. How true! How ironic that what we thought we were experiencing and reaching for (ultimate love, truth, peace) turned out to be exactly the opposite. But I guess that's the way with all cults, promise the earth, get the suckers roped in, then bleed them dry and turn them into amoral robots. Gee, sorry if that sounds a bit extreme, but it really was the way it was (for me). Let's hear the rest of your Arti, Larkette!

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Date: Fri, Mar 23, 2001 at 22:05:05 (GMT) From: Helen Email: None To: Joy Subject: narcissistic mastubatory bliss fix Message:

Thanks Joy. I still wonder about myself that I had such a flimsy sense of values and morals that I got sucked into the 'fuck the world, give me bliss' trap of M. When I went to grad school at Catholic U, I had such a drip! drip! drip! experience. Here were real religious people who served OTHERS in the name of God, without taking their emotional temperatures every 5 minutes to make sure they were having 'an experience.' I was so struck by that. Many of my professors and classmates were nuns, priests, and monks and were so intellectual too, they felt that serving God also meant developing one's brain. I really blossomed there. It was like an awakening for me, even though I am not Catholic, to be around people who were serious about religion but not addicted to a certain set of physiological sensations (as Father Mickey would brilliantly describe knowledge). Really, knowledge is just like SOMA (the drug) in the book Brave New World, a world where attachment to other people is considered a sin, and where seeking narcissistic good feeling with no regard for other peoples' feelings, is the whole goal. It's really scary to me that this became reality for me. I remember my mom telling me, 'There's alot more to life than wanting to feel HAPPY all the time!!' when I was a premie. At the time, I dismissed it as her martyr complex, but now I have to say I agree with her!! I like happiness as much as the next person, but some of life entails just dealing with responsibilities and doign what's right even when it doesn't feel blissful, ya know???

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Date: Fri, Mar 23, 2001 at 17:15:09 (GMT) From: Susan Email: None To: Joy Subject: Brilliant, Helen I second that! (nt) Message:

nt

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Date: Thurs, Mar 22, 2001 at 17:16:43 (GMT) From: Jerry Email: None To: Pat Conlon Subject: Christianity v Maharajism/Krishnaism Message:

It's true, Pat, that I imposed my puritan, Christian beliefs on how a true master should behave, but we were taught soon enough that it was all maya anyway or, at it's worst, lila, just Maharaji testing our faith by not living up to our Judeo/Christian expectations. Yes, once you've been convinced that someone is beyond reproach, that person can get away with anything. This is probably the most sickening aspect of getting caught up in a cult, where the rule becomes to discredit your own powers of discretion, and instead, just have unquestioning loyalty. Fuck that. And fuck you, Maharaji.

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Date: Thurs, Mar 22, 2001 at 04:33:29 (GMT) From: Francesca Email: None To: Pat Conlon Subject: Great post, and I am afraid Message:

very true. We didn't care, at the time that we got involved, whether he played by the rules. At least I didn't, and neither did anyone else I knew. Then when we got some sense, we bugged out.

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Date: Thurs, Mar 22, 2001 at 07:51:07 (GMT) From: Richard Email: None To: Francesca Subject: Great Pat C: correct about darshan = addiction Message:

You're on a roll with this Krishnaism / Darshan / Drug Addiction theory. We were the lab rats and it was certainly addicting. I was thinking today about when I went to a Long Beach event out of nostalgic curiosity and had passing thoughts of just letting go to 'that feeling' and being rescued and lifted out of this crazy world. I call it The White Knight Syndrom wherein said knight comes riding in on a white horse and saves the day. It is seductive to think you can get rescued or dance, dance, dance away from your pain but it is yourself that you abandon at those times. Fortunately for me the next year I built my own house and in the process rescued myself Hi, my name is Richard and I'm a recovering BhaktiJuJuholic.

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Date: Thurs, Mar 22, 2001 at 13:14:59 (GMT) From: Robyn Email: None To: Richard Subject: Great Pat C: correct about darshan = addiction Message:

Dear Richard and all, I never got high from darshan, thank god! I got high with something akin to mob mentality. When I got darshan I would look at m and think he looked borded and that he really looked down, not just literally, on the premies. At that time though, I didn't think anything about it maybe being from his want for money and that was one of the things he had to do to keep it coming. Love, Robyn

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Date: Thurs, Mar 22, 2001 at 09:21:21 (GMT) From: Pat Conlon Email: None To: Richard Subject: darshan = addiction. I knew you'd get it, Richard Message:

It's something that I'm experimenting with and it seems quite valid right now. I may end up by siccing the Satan-sniffing christian fundamentalists after Captain Voodoo Rawat.

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Date: Fri, Mar 23, 2001 at 04:55:16 (GMT) From: Mercedes Email: None To: Pat Conlon Subject: darshan = addiction. Message:

Pat you have hit the nail on the head. If you think it as addiction it is simple to understand the feeling of being intoxicated after kissing his feet. It is all in our heads. We with his help believed he was this otherwordly person he is not and got so addicted we left everything, got into debt trying to get that experience again and again and he continued and continues to push subtly now so that we do excactly that. Thank you dear. Mercedes

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Date: Fri, Mar 23, 2001 at 06:31:50 (GMT) From: Pat Conlon Email: None To: Mercedes Subject: Hi, Mercedes Message:

I hope what I post helps. It seems like you see things a bit like I do. Well a lot of us who only recently left. Like Connie and Lesley. Rev Rawat really is only a preacher who mesmerized us for a while - mass-hypnotism and auto-suggestion. Revivalist christian preachers do it all the time. Knowledge is just the Hindu version of christians getting a spiritual high at revivalist meetings.

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Date: Thurs, Mar 22, 2001 at 17:21:22 (GMT) From: Francesca Email: None To: Pat Conlon Subject: No, not the fundies! Message:

Fundamental christians. Sheesh Pat! Talk about making a deal with the devil. Thank the goddesses you're only half kidding. Here's a great quote from Thich Nath Hanh, which he didn't mean cynically, but I do: 'It is not only true that Christians need Jesus, but Jesus also needs Christians for His energy to continue in the world.' Yes, Rawat you old fart -- even our relationship with YOU was 'in our mind.' Francesca -- a collection of atoms that continues to perceive things

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Date: Thurs, Mar 22, 2001 at 19:10:30 (GMT) From: Pat Conlon Email: None To: Francesca Subject: Jerry Fallwell could you please investigate Rawat Message:

Why not pit the devils against one another? I am thinking of writing a letter to one of the bible thumpers. Can't stand any of them but hey, I don't think Rev Rawat stands a chance against Fallwell, Robertson et al.

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Date: Fri, Mar 23, 2001 at 03:25:51 (GMT) From: la-ex Email: None To: Pat Conlon Subject: I think Pat Robertson would be best...nt Message:

nt

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Date: Fri, Mar 23, 2001 at 03:29:24 (GMT) From: Pat Conlon Email: None To: la-ex Subject: Which devil is worse: Rev Rawat or Rev Robertson? Message:

The latter gives me almost as many creeps as the former.

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Date: Fri, Mar 23, 2001 at 12:29:21 (GMT) From: Katie H. Email: None To: Pat Conlon Subject: Pat, I've had similar thoughts Message:

But the televangelists scare me (I live in Virginia...home of both Falwell and Robertson). I know they wouldn't like the M trip if they saw it as a threat, or as somehow satanic (they think YOGA classes are satanic!), but their cooperation would come at a stiff price. Don't know if you're really serious about this. BTW, I find it interesting that Rawat is apparently choosing to go the televangelist route himself - this was suggested a while back on the forum. He certainly fits the mold. I just feel sorry for those poor people who will watch anything on cable at 3 AM or whenever his show is going to be on.

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Date: Sat, Mar 24, 2001 at 03:31:26 (GMT) From: Pat Conlon Email: None To: Katie H. Subject: Katie, the nice christians are too tolerant Message:

and liberal to fight him but I don't think I could stomach having those bible-thumping gorillas as my allies. Maybe a few letters to Revs Robertson and Falwell might be an idea. They destroyed poor old Tammy Faye for taking 3 mil out of 58 mil and being friendly to fags. Just mention child-molestation, drugs, and adultery and I'm sure they'd get their pal in the White House to look into it.

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Date: Thurs, Mar 22, 2001 at 19:54:44 (GMT) From: Francesca Email: None To: Pat Conlon Subject: Teletubby v Tubby Televangialist !!! n/t Message:

n/t

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Date: Thurs, Mar 22, 2001 at 00:34:50 (GMT) From: Jim Email: None To: Everyone Subject: Maharaji takes one on the chin, still standing tho Message:

Here's the latest summary report of Maharaji's Portland address this weekend. Note how he's whining about how hard it is to be a cult leader today, what with the internet and all. So what's he do? Resorts to the refuge of all cult leaders and religious pedants: inculcates fear about death and the great beyond. But hey, isn't this the 'die-and-see' guy? Sorry, I get a little confused: Maharaji spoke for over an hour in Portland, Oregon, on 18 March, and as he always does brought a unique freshness to a timeless message. He began by talking about the poet Kabir, who lived in 15th century India - a time without emails, trains or phones. Times were simpler then, but Kabir's advice which Maharaji said he had to tone down for public consumption was that we should only be concerned 'about this breath' because we have not come here to settle for good. 'People would have me be very moderate,' he said. 'But fortunately, I have a message to convey: Don't make your house in the bus terminal.' He explained that the bus terminal of this world had been designed for coming and going, so we shouldn't plan to live here for good. 'These are the fundamental things we forget.' 'I've come to remind you. I'm not preaching to you and I'm not teaching you... I am here to remind you of this breath, of the beauty of this existence.' Judging by his comments, the event will be broadcast by satellite soon. Don't miss it.

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Date: Fri, Mar 23, 2001 at 10:45:16 (GMT) From: AJW Email: None To: Jim Subject: No emails in the 15th Century- Interesting. Message:

I wonder how they communicated? I'd nearly reached to end and was thinking, 'blimey, he hasn't told everyone to keep breathing yet', then there it was in the last line. Anth still breathing, oops forgot, just passed out. Clunk.

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Date: Fri, Mar 23, 2001 at 03:02:29 (GMT) From: Helen Email: None To: Jim Subject: Maharaji takes one on the chin, still standing tho Message:

'This life is a bus terminal' For this I paid a thousand dollars? Oy.

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Date: Thurs, Mar 22, 2001 at 13:44:03 (GMT) From: bill--again,'people want Email: None To: Jim Subject: me to be moderate BUT,' take THAT! mom..nt Message:

dfj

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Date: Thurs, Mar 22, 2001 at 05:36:16 (GMT) From: A Former Aspirant Email: None To: Jim Subject: This is pathetic Message:

I'm afraid I don't give a flying crap about my breath. It seems to function quite well, thank you, without my paying any attention to it. I do not need anyone to remind me to breathe, and thank you very much, but I have much better things to do with my time. God knows I tried to figure out what this guy is about, but it's infathomable to me. I have never seen people sit around and listen to such a hollow, meaningless, talk and not much of anything. I learned at an early age that people are born and they die. In between that, they breathe. Why is this man talking about that, and why does he keep saying it over and over? And now, because of something about 'public consumption,' that's all he's going to talk about. Get me out of here.

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Date: Thurs, Mar 22, 2001 at 11:58:56 (GMT) From: Sir Dave Email: sirdavid12@hotmail.com To: A Former Aspirant Subject: This is pathetic - an explanation Message:

This belief that Maharaji expounds derives from a particular branch of Hinduism where people believe that remembering the name of God is essensial and by doing so at the time of death, one is saved by God and doesn't become re-incarnated as a frog or something like that. For instance, Mahatma Ghandi, on being shot by an assasin, shouted out 'Hari Rama' as he died. There are supposed to be many names of God in Hinduism. Later, the name of God was taken to be the sound that the breath makes and was given as 'So Hung' 'So Ham' and other such breathy names. The idea being that the sound of the breath was God speaking His name. Well, they do come up with some weird things in Hinduism. Later still, Maharaji dispensed with the 'So Hung' twaddle and even dispensed with the name of God stuff and just said that the breath itself was it and so it's all been changed and watered down from the original Hindu belief. Maharaji's knowledge is to concentrate, follow the breath for fifteen minutes each day. That's it, together with the plugging of one's ears for fifteen minutes to hear internal sounds and the concentration between the eyebrows (with the aid of the fingers) to look at optical nerve light. The fourth technique, which derives from an old Hatha Yoga technique of putting the tongue up behind the soft palate into the nasal cavity, has been changed also because Maharaji never understood it. Now he just teaches to put the tongue on the roof of the mouth. So I guess Maharaji talks about the breath since it's the only thing he's got to go on and he takes the old Hindu scriptures which talk about remembering the name of God (Krishna, Rama etc) and puts that onto remembering the breath, as explained above. Point of fact, meditation on the breath is nothing new and is practised by people who have nothing to do with Hinduism. For instance, it is taught by stress management people. So there you have it. An explanation of sorts.

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Date: Thurs, Mar 22, 2001 at 01:47:26 (GMT) From: Jim Email: None To: Jim Subject: I take it back, apparently it was better than ever Message:

From ELK: In Portland with love In the middle of the rain a great celebration, Maharaji was really happy in Portland. I could also feel the clarity of happiness. It felt so open and it really does get better and better, better than ever. It is really time to have fun, to enjoy, to be happy. All this time he has been inviting me to this endless celebration of joy. Ivete Belfort Mattos Sao Paolo, Brazil Thank God for the clarity of happiness

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Date: Thurs, Mar 22, 2001 at 01:54:12 (GMT) From: Jim Email: None To: Jim Subject: You know, I think the church ladies keep me going Message:

When I read shit like this, I can't stop. I want to wipe that bullshit smile off their faces. Nice guy, huh?

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Date: Thurs, Mar 22, 2001 at 09:26:07 (GMT) From: Pat Conlon Email: None To: Jim Subject: Please Jim, some compassion for the church ladies Message:

They are after all drug addicts and that devilish darshan/bhakti juju is a hard drug to kick. I know feeding them cold-turkey is more fun but I've never subscribed to schadenfreude - too Nazi.

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Date: Thurs, Mar 22, 2001 at 00:53:31 (GMT) From: Pat Conlon Email: None To: Jim Subject: ''to remind you of this breath?'' Rev Rawat, 3-18 Message:

Why can't he just make an Auto-breathe-reminding cassette tape for those poor people who need to be reminded to breathe? Duh!

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Date: Thurs, Mar 22, 2001 at 04:28:43 (GMT) From: la-ex Email: None To: Pat Conlon Subject: maybe M should market 'Iron Lung' machines ... Message:

he would make a great spokesperson for them, with his obsession with the 'breath thing'...we could all camp out at amaroo in the fields, in our 'pents', in iron lung machines and count the breaths at night, rather than sheep, as we blissfully await our darshan dream for the night... just an idea....

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Date: Thurs, Mar 22, 2001 at 00:43:09 (GMT) From: Selene Email: None To: Jim Subject: so now he isn't a TEACHER either? Message:

I've come to remind you. I'm not preaching to you and I'm not teaching you... I am here to remind you of this breath, of the beauty of this existence I'd say he's 'dancing around the issue' to quote someone I know :) :) Maybe he figures if he keeps changing labels he can't get pinned down? So will EV have to change their FAQ's? Don't they call him a teacher on there? I've been reminded of my breath quite well lately, after starting up an exercise routine after a 6 month or so lapse.

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Date: Thurs, Mar 22, 2001 at 13:17:39 (GMT) From: Van Morrison Email: None To: all Subject: No Guru, No Method, Not Teacher Message:

Just you and I... ...and nature...and the holy ghost In the garden... in the garden ...wet with rain

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Date: Fri, Mar 23, 2001 at 03:26:43 (GMT) From: Pat Conlon Email: None To: Van Morrison Subject: Breathe in, breathe out - and you're high - NT Message:

k

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Date: Fri, Mar 23, 2001 at 03:21:18 (GMT) From: Selene Email: None To: Van Morrison Subject: No Guru, No Method, Not Teacher Message:

And a whole shitload of money for the Not Teacher.

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Date: Thurs, Mar 22, 2001 at 00:56:11 (GMT) From: Pat Conlon Email: None To: Selene Subject: Not teacher or preacher - darshan veinding machine Message:

He has no other message than the bhakti juju one. He could sit and make raspberries all night and the devotees would drool. It's all about DARSHAN. I prefer darshan from my dogs - fewer strings attached.

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Date: Thurs, Mar 22, 2001 at 02:34:23 (GMT) From: Tonette Email: None To: Pat Conlon Subject: My that's funny!!!! Message:

Dog darshan-fewer strings attached!

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Date: Thurs, Mar 22, 2001 at 01:39:10 (GMT) From: Selene Email: None To: Pat Conlon Subject: well it's shit, he has been calling himself Message:

a Meditation Teacher, then he says something like that. Not that it's a surprise or a new tactic but it's annoying to say the least. So, what is he now, 'THE SPEAKER' ? If the rest of his life were not so contradictory, etc. etc. oh well, we all know this I am just hungup on that part of his quote at the moment. grrrrrr

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Date: Thurs, Mar 22, 2001 at 01:57:34 (GMT) From: Pat Conlon Email: None To: Selene Subject: Forget revisonism - still KRISHNA -DARSHAN is drug Message:

Maharajism is Krishnaism. Sure his PR and market research companies have told him to cool that kind of talk in the west but it still is all about goopis (like that typo) dancing with Krishna. This is why Knowledge is not given to aspirants right away but only after they have been hooked on the darshan drug (bhakti juju) via videos for five months. Krishnaism is all about getting blissed out by the guru's shaktipat (energy transfer/contact high.) The guru could have Tourette's and be shouting obscenities and the devotees would still get blissed. The guru could be immoral and corrupt and greedy but still give good darshan juju and the goopis would ooh and aah. He is NOT a meditation teacher and has never tried to be one. He is a darshan vending machine. The PWKs don't mind how many people he has killed, fucked, stolen from or lied to. They still get their darshan-juju fix from him. It's all about darshan nothing else. For anyone ''having affection'' for him (as he said on Sunday) he gives good DARSHAN. DARSHAN IS AN ADDICTIVE DRUG! NEED A FIX? GO TO GURU.

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Date: Thurs, Mar 22, 2001 at 19:53:17 (GMT) From: Lesley Email: None To: Pat Conlon Subject: darshan drug is a storm in a teacup Message:

I have been quite surprised at how easy it is to recover from the addiction!!! He talks up the 'thirst' until you think it quite acceptable to fly half way across the world to hear a couple of short addresses for him, and then when you get out of the teacup, pouf, the storm is over, the thirst is gone, you don't need or want to see him ever again, and you are certainly not looking for another to take over from him!

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Date: Thurs, Mar 22, 2001 at 20:13:38 (GMT) From: Pat Conlon Email: None To: Lesley Subject: darshan drug addiction easy to kick Message:

But do you agree that that is what Krishnaism/Maharajism is all about? Not meditation and self-empowerment.

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Date: Thurs, Mar 22, 2001 at 20:52:35 (GMT) From: Lesley Email: None To: Pat Conlon Subject: sure I do, though many are unaware of what they Message:

are doing. And of course, the damage of practising darshan addiction doesn't just disappear overnight, it does seem to heal of it's own accord, however, just like a cut does. I am reeling at the moment at the view I have now of how I had modelled my attitudes to life on those of the porky kid from hardwar with a narcissistic personality disorder!

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Date: Thurs, Mar 22, 2001 at 21:00:25 (GMT) From: Lesley Email: None To: Pat Subject: vulnerability Message:

Just about to go off line, but there is something I have been thinking about: people tend to join a religion when they are feeling vulnerable, and when you leave, you find yourself back in a vulnerable state, which can be a bit scary. If someone can just stick with you through that vulnerability and let you know that it will get better, that would be great, but what Rawat did was to take that vulnerability and make it pervasive, ie, yes you are fucked and you will be fucked forever if you don't take up the solution.

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Date: Fri, Mar 23, 2001 at 21:13:16 (GMT) From: Lesley Email: None To: Lesley Subject: yes I do, Pat Message:

If you equate surviving a cult to surviving an accident, my bones have knitted and i am trying my first steps without the crutches, doing pretty well too!lol Love Lesley

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Date: Thurs, Mar 22, 2001 at 21:25:18 (GMT) From: Pat Conlon Email: None To: Lesley Subject: vulnerability - I hope you have strong allies, Les Message:

I'm lucky in that my two husbands defected at the same time as I did. I hope you (and Connie too) have strong allies and friends to give you support in real life.

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Date: Thurs, Mar 22, 2001 at 20:58:39 (GMT) From: Pat Conlon Email: None To: Lesley Subject: recovery from Krishnaism Message:

I cannot believe that I swallowed such crap for 28 years. But isn't it fun to come home to your true nature and find that it was always there under the cult BS?

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Date: Thurs, Mar 22, 2001 at 07:47:42 (GMT) From: Connie Email: None To: Pat Conlon Subject: A soft centred chocolate Message:

M in the centre, dipped in and covered by age old knowledge. It's everyone who 'knows' big secret. Maybe for some, they are not even aware they have this secret. Pat, I understand your reference to Krishna and the fix on having darshan, though I also believe in people's psyches that it is not just restricted to 'external' darshan. There is also 'internal' darshan. The story of Krishna encompasses both. There was the blind, yearning love of the gopis for him and his response. It also involved the relationship between Arjuna and Krishna. That is more about letting go of all attachments, particularly family, friends, mentors. Against insurmountable odds and logic, the battle can be won with the help of Krishna , acting as a driver, not fighter, and the rememberance of his name (pwk assume this is m's 'knowledge'). It goes so far as to say 'if you remember me at the time of death, you will come to me'. Krishna is not the only one that he makes reference to. There are some poets (especially Indian) that he quotes frequently. He seems to have a few favourites - Kabir, Nanak, Mira, sometimes Rumi and Tulsidas. They all refer to the guru as someone unique and above reproach, and all express varying degrees of anguished longing in their verse. They refer to a 'name' but the guru is always greater. He has been quoting from these dead people for a very long time now. He might change other words, and try to deceive people with modern day speak, but he has consistently quoted the works of these poets with their message about the master. EV stating the Portland address began with a quote from Kabir, whose whole emphasis is on the guru/master and surrender is another example of the contradictary nature of the whole thing. EV will publically disavow any connection to 'Hindu trappings', but it is the first thing they mention he said.

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Date: Thurs, Mar 22, 2001 at 09:32:38 (GMT) From: Pat Conlon Email: None To: Connie Subject: A soft centred chocolate - with a heart of poison Message:

Thanks Connie. I'm glad you see where I am going. I'm experimenting with this. As I said to Richard, I'd like to sic the satan-sniffing christian fundamentalists on him. He's either nuts or he really is Krishna (hey what do I know - I'm an agnostic) in which case let's crucify Krishna for a change. He's been fucking the gopis for too many reincarnations. It just isn't nice and civilized. Yuk!

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Date: Thurs, Mar 22, 2001 at 09:01:42 (GMT) From: Gibran Email: None To: Connie Subject: this breath is sweet Message:

I'm sad cause Maharaji does't quote me anymore. What have I done? Love to the Master is sweet but you get cruzified. That's the fate all lovers have to bear. Gibran

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Date: Wed, Mar 21, 2001 at 23:39:22 (GMT) From: JHB Email: None To: Everyone Subject: This thing about criticising Maharaji Message:

I was speaking to a recent ex recently, and I did my thing where I asked him to give his top three criticisms of Maharaji. He answered that doing that was my definition of being an ex, not his. I asked him what didn't he like about G.W. Bush, and he answered his willingness to execute people. He also said that there were many worse people on this planet that were deserving of criticism, so he wasn't interested in trying to bring Maharaji down. I thought about this afterwards, and I realised that being able to criticise Maharaji has nothing to do with trying to bring him down (although that is certainly a worthy aim). No, it's about freeing our minds. This guy was quite happy to criticise Bush, whom he had never met, but still wouldn't criticise Maharaji. This did not gel with me. I think he is still trapped in cult think, and uses the excuse that Maharaji isn't as bad as Hussein, or Pinochet, to avoid having to face the truth that we followed a bad person. Being able to admit Maharaji is bad is good for our mental health, and doing it in public makes the criticism permanent. But also, it's important to be able to treat Maharaji like anyone else. If a shop assistant is rude, we criticise them. If our bosses behave badly we criticise them. We don't say there are worse people, we just express our feelings (appropriately, preferably). So why wouldn't this recent ex, who has just renounced the cult that Maharaji set up, criticise the cult leader? John.

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Date: Thurs, Mar 22, 2001 at 22:06:32 (GMT) From: Helen Email: None To: JHB Subject: I understnad the denial Message:

It's hard to criticize M at first. Those vestiges of adoration don't go away overnight. We gave him everything and attributed everything good to him, thus it's hard to see him as 'all that bad.' We think 'there must be some good in the man, since I experienced so much LOVE' M is just as bad as any other public figure who has hurt people. He just hides it all behind a big facade. Once the facade comes down and one can see him for who he is, the mystique is gone. It's gone gone gone, down the golden toilet! M's abuse may have not been physical torture or rape, but he re-created reality for us. That is HEAVY SHIT. Taking away peoples' experience of reality on a mass scale, and replacing it for his own gain. THAT IS HEAVY KARMA TO PAY! Dubya may be fond of the death penalty but M doesn't care who died for him or because of him either. Your friend's denial is your friend trying to distance himself from the real deal, that's all. Can't say I blame him. It's disturbing shit.

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Date: Thurs, Mar 22, 2001 at 21:15:22 (GMT) From: Bin Liner Email: None To: JHB Subject: I had a similar conversation recently .. Message:

...& the guy told me that he'd always resisted the cult aspects. Fair enough. Various other stuff. I concluded that I was talking to someone who had invested a different aspect of himself in this trip , than the follow my leader one . That's giving him the benefit of the doubt , but what the hell. 32 yrs in ; Guinness bk of records. One of the founding fathers , even if it was by accident. I'd be surprised if he were to get low down & personal with Rawat on these pages , but it would be nice now & again , if he were to fill in some of the historical blanks that sometimes come up.

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Date: Fri, Mar 23, 2001 at 02:27:42 (GMT) From: Bobby Email: None To: Bin Liner Subject: anyone know Clive Goodenough? Message:

Anybody in England know Clive Goodenough? In 1971 from Reading, England. He was a premie in 1970. Made the overland trek to India. I roomed with him in India 71. He used to hand make violins or fiddles. He used to tell funny stories about Afghanistan and the Prem Nagar Mahatmas scoring hash for him in 1970. Saph was there at that time too amongst a few other Westerners.

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Date: Fri, Mar 23, 2001 at 00:04:52 (GMT) From: JHB Email: None To: Bin Liner Subject: Saph??? (nt) Message:

asdf

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Date: Fri, Mar 23, 2001 at 00:42:31 (GMT) From: Bin Liner Email: None To: JHB Subject: No , he's gonzo , I thought we might have Message:

the same guy in mind. At Latvian night ?

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Date: Fri, Mar 23, 2001 at 00:51:40 (GMT) From: JHB Email: None To: Bin Liner Subject: No , he's gonzo , I thought we might have Message:

Probably, but the 32 years threw me. John.

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Date: Fri, Mar 23, 2001 at 01:48:31 (GMT) From: Bin Liner Email: None To: JHB Subject: 32 yrs is what he told me nt Message:

nt

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Date: Thurs, Mar 22, 2001 at 07:08:38 (GMT) From: such Email: None To: JHB Subject: maybe he felt his personal space was being invaded Message:

Dear JHB: Maybe he felt his personal space was being invaded. Friendly tip: Nowadays, when other people pressure me with THEIR own concepts or trips, if all else fails, I just tell them bluntly [in the most spiritual way, of course] to f--- off or shove it up their stupid f---ing a--es. So, suggest you simply respect his right to be Himself -- a unique being with His Own Free will and personal space and distinct individuality - NOT You, but Himself - and just let him be... Then, he'll respect you all the more, too. And then, you might be truly amazed with what he may eventually open up to express, freely - of his own volition... This isn't 'ex conversion', after all, or testing the faith of the new 'ex converts', is it - for you, JHB? Also, do you want him to remain your friend anymore, or not? Please understand that people exiting a cult clearly don't need pressure from anybody on earth - to conform to another set of subjective views or someone else's terms or personal politics ever again. However, some of the less astute exes apparently just don't 'get it', do they? Freedom means FREE to be whoever and however people want to be now [within the limits of society/laws] -- and, frankly, everyone else can go FUCK THEMSELVES. Now, do you get it? [Your friend was too meek or polite - careful: if you can't take a hint, a gnarlier recent ex might have had you on the ground, gasping for your last breath, within 2 seconds (depending upon how intrusive or obnoxious it felt to him/her, at that moment).] I left the New Left movement in 1970 because of asshole-enforced political correctness, absolute intolerance, and bogus, narrow-minded solutions - yet, ironically, some of those same douchebag ignoramus inquisitors and petty tyrants ended up as premies, too - and even became honchos. Now, some of them are exes, too -- still carrying around the same fucked-up intolerant mentalities and mediocre intellects. Well, hope that doesn't include you -- or anyone else here. If you'll notice, you related this conversation in terms of m, then dubya. See what you're doing now, in actuality -- playing personal politics? I see it clearly -- because it happened to me, too. I know better now... Good luck -- and good luck to your ex-friend. Peace and lentils,

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Date: Thurs, Mar 22, 2001 at 09:36:25 (GMT) From: Pat Conlon Email: None To: such Subject: You're a saint, Swami JI. Now if you would just Message:

take off your saffron robes and let us see who you are. Please.

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Date: Thurs, Mar 22, 2001 at 11:13:48 (GMT) From: suchabanana Email: None To: Pat Conlon Subject: I am that I am - transparent. apparent? soon... Message:

Pat, Saffron is the color of my True Love's face where nothing is sought, and mind is erased where nothing is thought, but then nothing debased where names have no meaning, and flesh only seeming to present a facade of the One who is dreaming... Peace and lentils,

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Date: Thurs, Mar 22, 2001 at 19:00:32 (GMT) From: Pat Conlon Email: None To: suchabanana Subject: You nature is transparent and sincere, Swami NT Message:

j

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Date: Thurs, Mar 22, 2001 at 08:44:27 (GMT) From: JHB Email: None To: such Subject: I agree completely Message:

which is why I dropped the subject pretty sharpish. You're very perceptive - I definitely felt I was invading his personal space, even though that part of the conversation only lasted about a minute. The point I'm making here in this public forum is that seeing Maharaji as just another human being, and applying the same critical thinking to him as we do to everyone else, is, I believe, healthy for us personally, and nothing to do with bringing him down. John.

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Date: Thurs, Mar 22, 2001 at 09:47:43 (GMT) From: such Email: None To: JHB Subject: I Absolutely agree with you, JHB. thanks... (nt Message:

nt

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Date: Thurs, Mar 22, 2001 at 10:40:32 (GMT) From: such Email: None To: John Subject: also, words once said are hard to retract... Message:

John: Even though the exchange with your friend lasted less than a minute, I have on several occasions made the callous mistake of saying inconsiderate things in one instant that forever changed a relationship with someone - for which I truly regretted. I cherish my few, trustworthy and honorable friends, and would I could make such amends to those whom my careless tongue offends. Peace and lentils,

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Date: Thurs, Mar 22, 2001 at 09:01:17 (GMT) From: janet Email: None To: JHB Subject: i can see someone ex'ing who put up with a lot Message:

and went along with a lot and did what was asked of them, but put everything thru a moral screener as it came in, and only agreed to do what they could conscionably approve. Such a person might have higher personal standards than Mj ever had, and might have been willing to go along and wait around to see if MJ was who he said he was, and perhaps at some point, that person just grew tired of waiting and going along. Such a person. being of higher moral character than Mj was, might not be given to such kinds of thinking as you were probing for. They might have jsut reached a point of walking away to better things, and their 'judgement' of MJ might be no more than a zero, something so minor and ineffectual as to be unworthy of wasting critical thought upon. sometimes one simply walks. there may be no 'reason' or passion about it, it's just the entire organism recognizing that it wants to be elsewhere, and going. i would bet you that is what the greatest percentage of people who received knowledge, practiced it for a time, and left, have done. not everyone has strong feelings about it. he is, after all, a pipsqueak to most people who first see him. inability to criticize him isnt necessarily a sign of being trapped in cult thinking. it could also be a sign of being occupied with much better thngs.

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Date: Thurs, Mar 22, 2001 at 10:02:28 (GMT) From: such Email: None To: janet Subject: Excellent! many [ex]premies just moved along...(mt Message:

Janet, you are VERY perceptive, m'dear!!!!! (and underappreciated -'cept by those like me)

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Date: Thurs, Mar 22, 2001 at 00:58:26 (GMT) From: Francesca Email: None To: JHB Subject: You are right on. Cult-think all the way! n/t Message:

n/t

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Date: Wed, Mar 21, 2001 at 23:51:56 (GMT) From: Pat Conlon Email: None To: JHB Subject: This thing about criticising Maharaji. John maybe Message:

if you change the phrase to ''critique'' Maharaji it would be less personal. I found that the church ladies were absolutely unable to critique or evaluate Rev Rawat because of the bhakti-juju taboo. But definitely for me just critiquing the Rev for years had already removed me from the realm of devotee. It is but a small step from critiquing to criticising. Some people don't like to criticize because it is too close to judging and judging can be a two-edged sword or simply against the moral values.

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Date: Thurs, Mar 22, 2001 at 01:32:46 (GMT) From: Jim Email: None To: Pat Conlon Subject: Criticize = Critique = Judge = Evaluate Message:

I can't for the life of me see any substantive difference between these terms, not in this context anyway. If you can I'd like to hear it. Yes, I know that 'criticize' assumes fault's already been found, 'critique' suggests an often-friendly performance assessment, 'judge' is some sort of a bugaboo for new agers and 'evaluate' is especially neutral. However, once you consider the actual thought process in action -- openly considering one's former cult leader -- the differences become non-existent.

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Date: Thurs, Mar 22, 2001 at 02:03:53 (GMT) From: Pat Conlon Email: None To: Jim Subject: Criticize = good. Judge = bad Message:

Criticism implies discernment or discrimination and maybe even taste. Judgement implies condemnation. To wean wavering premies off the Darshan-juju drug, it might be easier to ask them what they think about Rev Rawat as a meditation teacher first and then, once they have ''critiqued'' his performance, ask them what they think of someone who accidentally kills someone and then is so cowardly as to make someone else take the blame. That should lead to condemnation.

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Date: Thurs, Mar 22, 2001 at 00:37:31 (GMT) From: Bobby Email: None To: Pat Conlon Subject: This thing about criticising Maharaji. John maybe Message:

Hey, great statement Pat. Critiqueing is good. Some people don't like to criticize because it is too close to judging and judging can be a two-edged sword or simply against the moral values. Great statement. I've been an ex for many years and I'm not into getting angry because others tell me I'm supposed to. Yeah I get angry at things, but I'm really into de-constructing the anger. Don't need anger as my motivation or the basis of my experience. I'm actually more effective in accomplishing what I think is important to accomplish when not angry. I'm in the camp that doesn't believe in executions and other forms of severe punishment. There are other, genuine, more effective ways to reform the mind and change all our lives for the better. No easy answers here, just a few personal thoughts.

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Date: Thurs, Mar 22, 2001 at 02:08:01 (GMT) From: Pat Conlon Email: None To: Bobby Subject: Judgement implies anger , hatred and blame Message:

none of which are states of mind to dwell on for very long. Indulging in anger over a long period can be addicitve and lead to abuse of anger. Likewise with hatred. A burst of hatred is fine but seething long-term hatred can poison one. Blaming others can trap one in an ''I am a victim'' outlook which is not very good for self-esteem or self-confidence. I know all about this as I've been there.

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Date: Thurs, Mar 22, 2001 at 02:38:59 (GMT) From: Jim Email: None To: Pat Conlon Subject: No it doesn't Message:

That's new age bubble speak, Patrick. Judgement implies evaluating and that's it.

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Date: Thurs, Mar 22, 2001 at 02:42:43 (GMT) From: Pat Conlon Email: None To: Jim Subject: Oh there you are Jim Message:

Hey, I'm an agnostic christian and I don't like to hate or judge but prefer to forgive. I don't think it is new age at all. I think Maharajism is new age. I think being kind is civilization and common sense.

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Date: Thurs, Mar 22, 2001 at 04:19:46 (GMT) From: Jim Email: None To: Pat Conlon Subject: Without judgement there's nothing to forgive Message:

Patrick, Here's a dictionary definition of 'judge' from The Concise Oxford (Ninth Edition): 1) a. try (a cause) in a court of justice. b. pronounce sentence (on a person). 2) form an opinion about; estimate, appraise. 3) act as a judge of (a dispute or contest) 4) conclude, consider or suppose 5) a. form a judgement b. act as a judge So where's the problem?

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Date: Thurs, Mar 22, 2001 at 05:57:18 (GMT) From: Pat Conlon Email: None To: Jim Subject: Without judgement there's ...Jim, you're right Message:

You are quite right. I am using the word ''judgement'' inaccurately. And yes, you are right that we cannot forgive if we have not been offended and being offended means judging something against out standards. I will take back my misuse of the word and try to find a more accurate one - perhaps ''condemn'' or ''sentence.'' But maybe you will see what I am getting at and help me out with a better word. I think the biblical usage is also inaccurate. ''Judge ye that ye be not judged.'' for me means ''don't condemn and sentence someone to damnation but rather forgive.'' Typical religious mumbo-jumbo I know. I wdefinitely am very judgemental but then prefer to forgive IF the person repents. I think our disagreement is mostly a matter of my using sloppy lazy cliches.

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Date: Thurs, Mar 22, 2001 at 06:32:27 (GMT) From: Hi Email: None To: Pat Conlon Subject: Without judgement there's ...Jim, you're right Message:

Dear Pat: It is better to judge and expect to be judged ourselves. The other is just a moral blank check. Regards

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Date: Fri, Mar 23, 2001 at 10:01:49 (GMT) From: CD Email: None To: Hi Subject: right Message:

>It is better to judge and expect to be judged ourselves. Yes why of course. Now, what is the basis of the judgement? Oh, I see. There has been a debate on the foundation for a few thousand or more years. Very well. While you judge, keep the perspective of what can really be judged. Now, to judge or enjoy, that is the question ... CD

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Date: Sat, Mar 24, 2001 at 02:45:23 (GMT) From: Hi Email: None To: CD Subject: What a bunch of nonsense CD. nt Message:

g

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Date: Thurs, Mar 22, 2001 at 08:59:58 (GMT) From: Pat Conlon Email: None To: Hi Subject: Hi, Hi. Who are you, Hi? Wise words. Thanks. Message:

I heard you loud and clear.

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Date: Thurs, Mar 22, 2001 at 18:25:00 (GMT) From: Hi Email: None To: Pat Conlon Subject: No wisdom here. It just seems to make sense. nt Message:

d

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Date: Thurs, Mar 22, 2001 at 14:00:23 (GMT) From: bill Email: None To: Pat Conlon Subject: Greetings Hi, post some more....nt Message:

dfgs

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Date: Wed, Mar 21, 2001 at 23:51:12 (GMT) From: Selene Email: None To: JHB Subject: This thing about criticising Maharaji Message:

I read every page on this site when I first found it, and it was like a layer of shit got washed away with every page or journey I read. Maybe your friend has a different definition of criticism, thinks it's a negative thing rather than what (I think) you mean, which is critical thinking. Also I do know people who have left the cult but don't think it's healthy to dwell on the bad things from the past. It DID help me to bring up my bad memories, and share them here and find out that others had similar experiences. Right now what interests me more are the posts I read about the business end of EV and M's financial acrobatics, and also the status of the cult. And listening to new ex's. This recent ex may feel differently over time or may (right now) feel that his expereince in the cult wasn't so bad. And it's hard to admit to a lot of wasted time. I don't tell any of my work friends or business contacts about those years, at least not until we get to know each other much better.

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Date: Thurs, Mar 22, 2001 at 00:33:17 (GMT) From: JHB Email: None To: Selene Subject: This thing about criticising Maharaji Message:

Yes, I do mean employing critical thinking with regard to Maharaji. Regarding talking to normal people (:-)) I do tend to cheat when talking about my cult days by giving the impression, without directly lying, that I followed a guru when I was young without saying how long I believed in him. I just feel it's not possible to leave the cult without dealing with the core issue of the cult, which is not knowledge (never was) but is Maharaji's identity. If meditation ever becomes the core of Maharaji's teaching then maybe he will no longer be a cult leader, but a meditation teacher. John.

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Date: Thurs, Mar 22, 2001 at 07:38:09 (GMT) From: Hal Email: None To: JHB Subject: This thing about criticising Maharaji Message:

Hi John, I've found that my opinions and feelings have changed or transmuted many times during the time since I exited. I was where your friend was at the very beginning . I had very little criticism of Maha. My judgement of him was that he was a crappy spiritual teacher , that was about it. I then went through a phase of extreme criticism , bordering on hatred for him. It was through reading posts and the contents of this site that I really began to see what a shit he is but it took time. The guy took a large chunk of my life and filled my head with concepts about life which were detrimental to my happiness. I also had a tendenct to go and tell wavering premies about all the controversial information I'd found on this site. They viewd me as a fanatic! Some of them just want to slip away quietly. Have patience John and accept that people are different. Steve

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Date: Wed, Mar 21, 2001 at 18:27:35 (GMT) From: Way Email: None To: Everyone Subject: Holi 2001 Message:

'If you want to learn Hindi, you must go to a Hindi teacher. If you want to learn English, you need an English teacher, someone who knows the language. In the same way, to learn the Knowledge of the Soul, you need the living Master, the Satguru.' -the living Master, March 9, 2001, at the Holi 2001 festival.

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Date: Thurs, Mar 22, 2001 at 13:58:20 (GMT) From: bill Email: None To: Way Subject: What? warlocks cant get wet either?....nt Message:

dfdvh

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Date: Thurs, Mar 22, 2001 at 05:58:48 (GMT) From: such Email: None To: Way Subject: Holi shit!!!! (nt Message:

nt

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Date: Thurs, Mar 22, 2001 at 01:52:08 (GMT) From: Abi Email: None To: Way Subject: Holi 2001 Message:

Gosh, so there's lots of them about. Is it true that Holi is based on the Krishna ritual of squirting gopis? Something about washing karma away? (And maybe making their tops stick to them too?) Doesn't the ideology of karma justify the terrible caste system in India i.e. born an untouchable because of bad karma? I went to a Holi in Rome. I was terrified of those water guns. Glitter got in my eyes, in my mouth, in my hair. I'll never forget all those premies dressed in white jumping up and down screaming out 'we love you Maharaji!!!' as they got soaked by Satguru. Some would open their mouths, eveyone hand their hands up, everyone was streaked, laughing, crying, hyterical. I wonder what they said when they hired those guns. 'Listen we just need them for a day, we want to squirt coloured water at a couple of thousand people who will be dressed in white.' What? And when I went back to school what could I tell my friends? 'Oh, you know I and a couple of thousand people were squirted with coloured water by the Lord of the Universe and, phew, all the bad karma I accumulated over several hundred lifetimes was washed away'. Okay...

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Date: Wed, Mar 21, 2001 at 20:27:14 (GMT) From: cq Email: None To: Way and everyone Subject: Holi space oddysey Batman! Message:

Here's a fetching picture of Satpal (or BalBhagwanji as he used to be known) at the recent Khumb festival on the banks of the Ganges. Love that bathing cap! . . . Incidentally, I didn't realise he was also in the business of giving 'Knowledge', though he calls it by its Hindi name, 'Manav Dharam' well, you live and learn ...

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Date: Wed, Mar 21, 2001 at 23:27:50 (GMT) From: Francesca Email: None To: cq Subject: Where's da bathing cap? Message:

First link doesn't work -- please repost. --f

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Date: Thurs, Mar 22, 2001 at 21:43:17 (GMT) From: cq Email: None To: Francesca Subject: working on it - Friday pm OK for you? Message:

xxxxxxxxxxx

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Date: Fri, Mar 23, 2001 at 05:52:46 (GMT) From: Francesca Email: None To: cq Subject: yeah, we all have our day jobs!!! n/t Message:

n/t

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Date: Fri, Mar 23, 2001 at 20:40:45 (GMT) From: cq Email: None To: Francesca Subject: ...and beauty sleep!Somehow the link now works(nt) Message:

At least it did just now. If not, try this: http://www.geocities.com/agforumdata/balbhagwankumbh.jpg

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Date: Wed, Mar 21, 2001 at 19:52:08 (GMT) From: david m Email: None To: Everyone Subject: Holi 2001 Message:

Wow this is funny...I was just looking at Prem Nagar ashram...and was thinking boy things have changed...all of these buildings and guests rooms for a 1000....when I was there we had to sleep on the ground and eat Glucose d cookies and not much else...I guess lots of Money works wonders...Hail to the Chief...by the was which Brother is the Chief.??????Peace...David m

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Date: Wed, Mar 21, 2001 at 20:09:34 (GMT) From: Marianne Email: delores@gofree.indigo.ie To: david m Subject: Hey there david m! Message:

Could you please email me? Need your email address. Many thanks, O'Marianne

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Date: Wed, Mar 21, 2001 at 20:16:34 (GMT) From: david m Email: dmatteson@cvs.k12.mi.us To: Marianne Subject: Hey there Marianne...{OT} Message:

I have sent you several notes i hope you get this one...I'll send you more info on me later really busy at work putting on the Musical Grease...Hope to hear fm you soon...Peace,...David m

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Date: Wed, Mar 21, 2001 at 19:10:46 (GMT) From: Cynthia Email: None To: Way Subject: Holi 2001...WHAT? They can't think of anything... Message:

original? Sheesh! (To borrow Katie H.'s) expression. Thanks for the laugh, I need them...keep 'em coming... Cyn

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Date: Thurs, Mar 22, 2001 at 11:20:12 (GMT) From: janet Email: None To: Cynthia Subject: i was just getting nostalgic the other day.. Message:

trying to explain to my now grown son about holi when he was an infant. bbJ has nowhere near the impish charisma of our onetime sopping wet superhero, who got supreme staisfaction from blasting us on our asses in the orange bowl, but these pictures will do nicely to help me give him the sense of it. although the original holi was celelbrated as a food fight in a palace. btw--the hare krishna's celebrate holi too. i think they use fruit juice. idea--what if we ambushed him at a program... and played holi in reverse on him?? maybe with a battery of highpowered squirtguns? on his best suit? and put reeking bad perfume in the dye? or fruit juices?

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Date: Wed, Mar 21, 2001 at 10:04:30 (GMT) From: Hanuman Email: None To: Everyone Subject: is still around.. Message:

and is getting more and more bored reading all that stuff on the forum site...we used to call that 'manmukhs' in india, slaves to the mind compared to gurmukhs , slaves to the master.. kabir always referred to himself as the slave of the lord.. but what can one say to 20th century manmukhs with a brilliant intellect but no devotion to the master?i thank guru maharaj ji a thousand times that he has saved me from that and pray he won't ever let me end up as you poor people..my blessings to you

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Date: Thurs, Mar 22, 2001 at 18:57:24 (GMT) From: Nigel Email: None To: Hanuman Subject: Pompous ass... Message:

Have you posted here before, brother? If so, under what name? Just common courtesy. Anyway, posts like yours reveal a mind plagued with contradictions and an ugly hubris that masqerades as sincerity (loved the 'my blessings to you'). Yeah, we've all played that game to some extent, and it stinks. You know you wouldn't/shouldn't even be here if you mean it when you write: 'but what can one say to 20th century manmukhs with a brilliant intellect but no devotion to the master?i thank guru maharaj ji a thousand times that he has saved me from that and pray he won't ever let me end up as you poor people..' So how saved are you? A little bit saved? VERY saved? (Are your meddies a little bit infinite or very infinite indeed?) And how many posts did you read before forming your conclusions about our spiritual health? If one or two posts, then you are in no position to judge. If many posts, then you're as stuck in the maya as anybody else here. If you can't see that you might as well fuck off and meditate until you can.

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Date: Thurs, Mar 22, 2001 at 12:15:24 (GMT) From: janet Email: None To: Hanuman Subject: well i tell you what hanuman. if you have a Message:

heart attack and they have to crack open your chest to get at your heart, you be sure and put a standing order in your living will for them to look for the little man they will find sitting in your auricles and ventricles, to make real sure they don't accidentally electrocute him when they charge up those code blue paddles. of course, then theres the problem of where to put him and how to get him back in once they safely escort him out. and which chamber is he in? oh-- of course--the one that comes from the breath, so it would have to be the fresh red oxygenated blood from the lungs to the heart. oh wait--if he is in the breath, then does that mean babies in the womb who don't breathe, aren't with God? but i thought babies came from God! You know--from the Creator! from Heaven! innocent and unstained and pure! no...that can't be it. the soul enters at the first breath. i mean, the spirit. cause it leaves at death and the body stops breathing, right? i mean--thats how you can tell when the soul has left. cause the body stops breathing. so, does that mean that all babies are dead, while they're growing inside their mothers?? i mean, they don't breathe until they come out, right? but that can't be right!---- 'Cause i remember clearly, how my son kicked, and swam around inside me, for 18 weeks--thats 4 and a half months, before he came out, and then he breathed. are you trying to tell me that he was dead? or that he did'nt come from the Creator? he wasn't with God? this isnt making any sense at all. look--you keep saying that the connection to the Creator is in the breath, and when it leaves, you're dead. then you say that babies come from the Creator and are pure and unstained--but while they're growing inside their mothers,they don't breathe. so they're dead? then you say that the spirit is in the breath. but babies in the womb don't have breath. therefore you mean they don't have spirit? you've obviously never been pregnant. boy, oh boy, do they ever have spirit!! you just don't know what it's like, do you? you say the difference between a living body and a dead body is that the dead body doesnt breathe. but my son was living, and he was inside of me-- and he was very clearly alive--and active, and responsive to outside things, and he didn't start breathing until he got outside of my body!!! so what are you trying to say, exactly?? do you even know?? I don't think you know what you're talking about. And since you're never going to know what it's like to be pregnant and have a baby...maybe you better stop trying to tell those of us who've done it, what it's about. ok?

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Date: Thurs, Mar 22, 2001 at 11:27:13 (GMT) From: AJW Email: None To: Hanuman Subject: Hanuman, if you find it boring here... Message:

...why don't you fuck off to Enjoyingsnot.com and charge yourself up with excitement. You know, that stuff that puts you on the edge of your seat, 'Breathing is so great. It keeps you alive. Breath is really useful. It brings oxygen into your body. If you don't breath you will become dead, etc' Anth, hang on a minute while I check if I'm still breathing.

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Date: Thurs, Mar 22, 2001 at 10:46:25 (GMT) From: Dave Punshon Email: None To: Hanuman Subject: is still around.. Message:

so, you are thinking with the brain of a monkey - why not try the human brain you were born with

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Date: Thurs, Mar 22, 2001 at 11:28:56 (GMT) From: AJW Email: anthginn@yahoo.com To: Dave Punshon Subject: Hi Dave (ot) Message:

How's it hanging down there? Hope all is well with you and yours. Take care (don't forget to keep breathing). Anth in clogs.

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Date: Thurs, Mar 22, 2001 at 11:07:19 (GMT) From: Jethro Email: None To: Dave Punshon Subject: Hi Dave (OT) Message:

Thanks for help in getting the Piano. She is doing really well and has just won a prize. Love to C. Jethro

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Date: Thurs, Mar 22, 2001 at 02:25:05 (GMT) From: Pat Conlon Email: None To: Hanuman Subject: Hanuman committed hideous atrocities in the Message:

service of his master, Rama. Rama was an avatar of Vishnu just like Krishna and Rev Rawat. Krishnaism is a debased and anachronistic religion based on bhakti juju and darshan-drug addiction. Krishna's gopis were so jealous of each other they were ready to kill until Krishan conveniently manifested in thousands of forms to fuck em all. Maharajism is Krishnaism and is just as immoral/amoral, solipsistic and infantile. Premies are self-centered and blind to the faults of the darshan vending machine known as Rawat as long as they get their darshan-juju drug fix. Fuck everybody else. That is why many premies are hateful, spiteful, malicious and uncaring of the fellow men.

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Date: Thurs, Mar 22, 2001 at 04:20:41 (GMT) From: Mercedes Email: None To: Pat Conlon Subject: could not have said it better myself. Tk's Pat(nt) Message:

hh

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Date: Wed, Mar 21, 2001 at 21:21:11 (GMT) From: cq Email: None To: Hanuman Subject: You identify with being Hanuman??? but your post Message:

... your post reeks of spiritual arrogance. Well, they say that pride comes before a fall . . . I suggest you cotton on to the fact that damning all ex-followers of the guru means that you're judging one hell of a lot of people ( - like well over 80% of all that have taken 'knowledge'). People who you used to think of as your brothers and sisters. shame what ideology can do, isn't it?

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Date: Thurs, Mar 22, 2001 at 09:53:07 (GMT) From: Hanuman Email: None To: cq Subject: You identify with being Hanuman??? but your post Message:

Who the hell says I am DAMNING all ex-premies, no way , man, I just feel pity for you, that's all, and I gave you my blessings, does one bless people that one ALLEGEDLY damns???

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Date: Thurs, Mar 22, 2001 at 21:46:11 (GMT) From: cq Email: None To: Hanuman Subject: does one bless people that one ALLEGEDLY damns??? Message:

ask the real Hanuman (the one with the jar of devotion still stuck on his wrist). No human deserves to be worshipped by any other human, much though both parties might get off on it. Thus spake me.

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Date: Fri, Mar 23, 2001 at 14:35:40 (GMT) From: hanuman Email: None To: cq Subject: does one bless people that one ALLEGEDLY damns??? Message:

if you see the master as a normal human being then maybe... but i'll just quote maulana rumi here: 'behold in the form of the master, both the prophet, peace be upon him, and allah almighty are standing before you.' but you may have received deeper revelations than this ol'dude from persia, right?

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Date: Fri, Mar 23, 2001 at 20:03:42 (GMT) From: cq Email: None To: hanuman Subject: The doctrine according to Rumi Message:

You're quoting the same Rumi who said 'Beyond ideas of wrong doing and right doing, there is a field. I'll meet you there.' If we're to meet there, then we must both be able to distinguish the difference between true spirituality and mere fundamentalist evangelism. But then we wouldn't be 'beyond ideas of wrong doing and right doing', would we? Can it be true? Can even readers of the great Rumi benefit from applying a little common sense to what he said? There is a certain Logic to having one's feet on the ground, you know, no matter how grandiose one's idea. His love for God is evident. Unfortunately he anthropomorphises God into a human being, which is fine if that human being is true and honest and unaware that you're seeing her/him as God. There are, however, certain individuals who like to place themselves on their own pedestals, with the pre-meditated intent of fooling as many people as possible into showering them with that adulation which is rightfully reserved for the true origin of the universe. Anyway, back to that field which Rumi talks about. Are you 'Hanuman' ready to put your beliefs up for scrutiny? If not, then remember what I said in my first reply to you in this thread (and if you continue to look down your nose at 'spiritually inferior' punters such as moi - just remember what that marks you out as! i.e. a minor-league spiritual snob, as far as seeing the divine in all that is. And isn't that what the masters are supposed to do?) . . . However, if you are ready, then .... over.

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Date: Thurs, Mar 22, 2001 at 11:05:26 (GMT) From: Jethro Email: None To: Hanuman Subject: If you realy were a Hanuman Message:

you wouldn't hesitate in saying your real name.

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Date: Wed, Mar 21, 2001 at 20:12:11 (GMT) From: suchabanana Email: None To: Hanuman Subject: intelligence vs shit-for-brains:Lord, NOT Lard!(nt Message:

nt

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Date: Wed, Mar 21, 2001 at 18:31:48 (GMT) From: New-Age Redneck Email: None To: Hanuman Subject: I prefer the title, 'dna-mukh,' thanks.... Message:

the all-natural 'way', thanks!

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Date: Wed, Mar 21, 2001 at 17:16:42 (GMT) From: Jim Email: None To: Hanuman Subject: Better keep praying, bud, is all I can say (nt) Message:

ddddddd

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Date: Wed, Mar 21, 2001 at 16:18:40 (GMT) From: Cynthia Email: None To: Hanuman Subject: is still around... Message:

and wondering who the heck are you to give us your ''blessings?'' Geezum Crow! Furthermore, I'd much rather devote myself to myself (my mind and all that goes with it) rather than to Guru Maharaj Ji. And, as I always ask premies who post here, why do you use the old language instead of the new? Haven't you been in touch with the ''Master'' lately? He really doesn't like that kind of talk. Actually, he doesn't like any premies talking, from what I've heard. If we're so emeshed in the maya, why do you care about us and feel the need to protect the ''Lord of the Universe?'' He doesn't like that phrase anymore either.... Think about it! Cynthia

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Date: Thurs, Mar 22, 2001 at 09:56:14 (GMT) From: Hanuman Email: None To: Cynthia Subject: is still around... Message:

who the heck I am to bless you? well, just another megalomaniac..

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Date: Wed, Mar 21, 2001 at 14:01:46 (GMT) From: JHB Email: None To: Hanuman Subject: What's your basis for your belief system? Message:

Why do you believe these things? If you believe you are like Hanuman, then you must believe that Maharaji is like Ram. As you know, Ram was supposed to be an incarnation of Vishnu. Is Prem Pal Rawat an incarnation of Vishnu? Do you think there is any likelihood at all of this being true? A greedy drunken womaniser being the incarnation of Vishnu? And if it were true, why the fuck would you want to devote yourself to him? But of course, you are one of those one post premies that has lost the ability to debate, so we won't be seeing you again. John the free.

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Date: Wed, Mar 21, 2001 at 13:10:40 (GMT) From: Bryn Email: None To: Hanuman Subject: Certainly saved you from a brilliant intellect- Message:

and by the way it's the twenty first century. I'm sorry to carp Hanuman, but are you serious? Usually I let this kind of pompous delusion pass me by-but this?!! What are you thinking about yourself to write this?! You dont have to answer of course, its your business. The fact is your attitude reminds me of me. May I suggest you take what little wit is left to you and check a few things. Good luck Bryn

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Date: Wed, Mar 21, 2001 at 11:56:35 (GMT) From: Gibran Email: None To: Hanuman Subject: is still around.. Message:

Maharaji needs sweet little monkies like you. Oh I know you have a wonderfull heart. Gibran

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Date: Wed, Mar 21, 2001 at 11:35:59 (GMT) From: toby Email: None To: Hanuman Subject: is still around.. Message:

High Hanuman, That was one of the greatest devotees ever, I remember, a little understatement to you , I guess. So m. saved you a thousand times but you didn't seem to grow a bit, hmmmm. Maybe you still have the monkeys brain, and that is why you cannot make a difference between the Lord and m. Toby

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Date: Thurs, Mar 22, 2001 at 10:00:51 (GMT) From: Hanuman Email: None To: toby Subject: is still around.. Message:

..probably, yes!!!!!!!!!!

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Date: Wed, Mar 21, 2001 at 11:20:02 (GMT) From: Ulf Email: None To: Hanuman Subject: is still around.. Message:

But dont you see, if you are really bored of reading all this mindtalking here Why dont you stop????? You know somebody once said : If you like it, go on and if you dont like it , you shouldt stop!!!!! Wonder who that was ? Ulf

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Date: Wed, Mar 21, 2001 at 10:20:47 (GMT) From: Sir Dave Email: None To: Hanuman Subject: is still around.. Message:

'and pray he won't ever let me end up as you poor people' I said the same prayer myself once. I also said a prayer a few years ago that I wanted the truth about Maharaji, beyond all doubt. Here it is: The Truth about Maharaji Why would I want to devote myself to such a 'master' as this?

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Date: Wed, Mar 21, 2001 at 15:47:15 (GMT) From: donner Email: None To: hanuman Subject: is still around.. Message:

speaking of being a slave to your guru...does he want you to refer to him as guru maharaji anymore or master...or pray to him...i thought he was not saying those things anymore...when you pray to him...does he hear you and how does that happen. obviously you attribute to him extra ordinary powers right.

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