Forum V: Archive
Compiled: Thurs, Mar 29, 2001 at 19:54:59 (GMT)
From: Mar 22, 2001 To: Mar 28, 2001 Page: 3 Of: 5


Gossip -:- K.session this weekend in UK. -:- Sun, Mar 25, 2001 at 23:16:13 (GMT)
__ Lester -:- K.session this weekend in UK. -:- Mon, Mar 26, 2001 at 18:32:58 (GMT)
__ Jerry -:- DVD -:- Mon, Mar 26, 2001 at 16:55:51 (GMT)
__ __ Cynthia -:- I'd rather watch the old 'Inherit the Wind' (nt) -:- Tues, Mar 27, 2001 at 19:36:52 (GMT)
__ such -:- Yes,+order Prem model deluxe 'Armchair Traveler'nt -:- Sun, Mar 25, 2001 at 23:40:04 (GMT)

la-ex -:- Calling all counselors and do-gooders alike... -:- Sun, Mar 25, 2001 at 20:23:08 (GMT)
__ Kap -:- Calling all counselors and do-gooders alike... -:- Tues, Mar 27, 2001 at 13:56:05 (GMT)
__ __ JHB -:- How's the fundraising going? -:- Tues, Mar 27, 2001 at 20:59:37 (GMT)
__ janet -:- the chat room is already made and ready... -:- Mon, Mar 26, 2001 at 06:25:13 (GMT)
__ __ salam -:- fuck talkcity -:- Mon, Mar 26, 2001 at 09:38:52 (GMT)
__ __ __ janet -:- re talkcity -:- Mon, Mar 26, 2001 at 10:36:17 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ salam -:- I can trash their website. -:- Mon, Mar 26, 2001 at 10:45:29 (GMT)
__ Dermot -:- Calling all counselors and do-gooders alike... -:- Sun, Mar 25, 2001 at 21:21:00 (GMT)
__ Sir Dave -:- Non exit councelling -:- Sun, Mar 25, 2001 at 20:40:16 (GMT)
__ __ The Former Ellen B. Good -:- Non exit councelling -:- Mon, Mar 26, 2001 at 03:40:08 (GMT)
__ __ __ Selene -:- am awake now -:- Mon, Mar 26, 2001 at 17:20:57 (GMT)
__ __ __ salam -:- Don't be so selfish -:- Mon, Mar 26, 2001 at 09:48:15 (GMT)
__ __ __ Jim -:- Hi, Eb! -:- Mon, Mar 26, 2001 at 06:12:50 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ eb -:- Busy with drugs/drinking/orgies OT -:- Mon, Mar 26, 2001 at 15:26:40 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Nigel -:- Have a large one for me, eb -:- Mon, Mar 26, 2001 at 17:21:01 (GMT)
__ __ __ Joe -:- Ellen I miss your wonderful, wry humor....(nt) -:- Mon, Mar 26, 2001 at 05:53:03 (GMT)
__ __ __ Selene -:- lots of love eb -:- Mon, Mar 26, 2001 at 04:36:58 (GMT)
__ __ __ Katie H. -:- Ellen, so nice to see you here - love you (nt) -:- Mon, Mar 26, 2001 at 04:15:37 (GMT)
__ __ __ Richard -:- Welcome Ellen - that's an encouraging story. -:- Mon, Mar 26, 2001 at 03:44:54 (GMT)
__ __ moldy warp -:- Some thoughts on nonexit couselling -:- Sun, Mar 25, 2001 at 21:02:49 (GMT)
__ __ __ Sir Dave -:- Some thoughts on nonexit couselling -:- Mon, Mar 26, 2001 at 00:12:49 (GMT)
__ __ Richard -:- Sir Dave, about Non exit councelling -:- Sun, Mar 25, 2001 at 20:50:07 (GMT)
__ la-ex -:- a few other points... -:- Sun, Mar 25, 2001 at 20:34:43 (GMT)
__ bill -:- here?....nt -:- Sun, Mar 25, 2001 at 20:33:30 (GMT)

Katie Darling -:- Keeping the 'exit counseling' conversation alive -:- Sun, Mar 25, 2001 at 03:16:30 (GMT)
__ salam -:- KD -:- Mon, Mar 26, 2001 at 00:59:56 (GMT)
__ Susan -:- list of therapists? -:- Sun, Mar 25, 2001 at 18:30:25 (GMT)
__ donner -:- Keeping the 'exit counseling' conversation alive -:- Sun, Mar 25, 2001 at 17:32:05 (GMT)
__ Babs -:- On the benefits of therapy -:- Sun, Mar 25, 2001 at 04:36:24 (GMT)
__ __ Katie Darling -:- On the benefits of therapy -:- Sun, Mar 25, 2001 at 06:41:23 (GMT)
__ __ Richard -:- On the benefits of therapy -:- Sun, Mar 25, 2001 at 06:10:25 (GMT)
__ Jim -:- Marijuana = resisted grief? Where's THAT from? -:- Sun, Mar 25, 2001 at 03:38:25 (GMT)
__ __ Katie Darling -:- Marijuana = resisted grief? Where's THAT from? -:- Sun, Mar 25, 2001 at 06:19:50 (GMT)
__ __ __ Jim -:- Sorry, I'm not with you -:- Sun, Mar 25, 2001 at 18:41:33 (GMT)
__ __ __ Katie H. -:- Marijuana = resisted grief? Where's THAT from? -:- Sun, Mar 25, 2001 at 15:50:45 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Katie Darling -:- Hey Katie -:- Sun, Mar 25, 2001 at 15:57:38 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Susan -:- Hey Katie D=marijuana=drowning feelings of guilt? -:- Sun, Mar 25, 2001 at 18:34:20 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Katie H. -:- Hey back, Katie -:- Sun, Mar 25, 2001 at 16:03:47 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Katie H. -:- Also, suppressing the 'dark' or 'shadow' side -:- Sun, Mar 25, 2001 at 16:05:34 (GMT)
__ __ __ Jerry -:- I'm curious, too -:- Sun, Mar 25, 2001 at 08:23:02 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ donner -:- I'm curious, too -:- Sun, Mar 25, 2001 at 17:30:29 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Jim -:- You sure about all that, donner? -:- Mon, Mar 26, 2001 at 01:41:39 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ donner -:- You sure about all that, donner? -:- Mon, Mar 26, 2001 at 02:10:12 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Jerry -:- What did I say that was so wrong? -:- Sun, Mar 25, 2001 at 22:04:00 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ donner -:- What did I say that was so wrong? -:- Mon, Mar 26, 2001 at 01:38:39 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Jim -:- False premise, premies -:- Mon, Mar 26, 2001 at 01:55:15 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ donner -:- False premise, premies -:- Mon, Mar 26, 2001 at 02:46:08 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ la-ex -:- False premise, premies/disagree with 'trend'.. -:- Mon, Mar 26, 2001 at 05:02:03 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ donner -:- False premise, premies/disagree with 'trend'.. -:- Mon, Mar 26, 2001 at 05:20:16 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Jim -:- Luck of the draw maybe? -:- Mon, Mar 26, 2001 at 04:53:57 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ donner -:- Luck of the draw maybe? -:- Mon, Mar 26, 2001 at 05:06:21 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ la-ex -:- Luck of the draw maybe?/Jim,I gotta agree w/MD -:- Mon, Mar 26, 2001 at 14:55:24 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Jim -:- Oh no, it's Recovery Talk! -:- Mon, Mar 26, 2001 at 05:46:45 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Hal -:- Same for me Jim -:- Mon, Mar 26, 2001 at 07:37:15 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Pat Conlon -:- Donner, were you more passionate and intense than -:- Mon, Mar 26, 2001 at 03:05:17 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ donner -:- Donner, were you more passionate and intense than -:- Mon, Mar 26, 2001 at 05:29:33 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Pat Conlon -:- Donner, thanks - your tales of M's incompetence -:- Mon, Mar 26, 2001 at 09:24:29 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Richard -:- guru worship addictive like drug abuse -:- Mon, Mar 26, 2001 at 00:06:40 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Jim -:- Addiction is NOT a good analogue for this cult -:- Mon, Mar 26, 2001 at 01:27:46 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Jerry -:- guru worship addictive like drug abuse -:- Mon, Mar 26, 2001 at 01:24:44 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Richard -:- Would 'dependency' be a better word to describe... -:- Mon, Mar 26, 2001 at 03:00:22 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Joy -:- I Don't Agree, Donner -:- Sun, Mar 25, 2001 at 20:13:11 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ donner -:- I Don't Agree, Donner -:- Mon, Mar 26, 2001 at 01:42:44 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ la-ex -:- I'm curious, too/Lets keep the good ideas coming -:- Sun, Mar 25, 2001 at 20:09:59 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ donner -:- I'm curious, too/Lets keep the good ideas coming -:- Mon, Mar 26, 2001 at 01:47:00 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ JHB -:- I'm curious, too/Lets keep the good ideas coming -:- Sun, Mar 25, 2001 at 20:28:01 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Katie H. -:- You're right, John - my apologies to Michael -:- Sun, Mar 25, 2001 at 20:31:19 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Katie H. -:- Can some of y'all work on some of this? -:- Sun, Mar 25, 2001 at 20:19:33 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Joe -:- The Forum as a limited format -:- Sun, Mar 25, 2001 at 20:03:54 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ donner -:- The Forum as a limited format -:- Mon, Mar 26, 2001 at 01:56:11 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Dermot -:- Aint nothing much wrong with the much.. -:- Mon, Mar 26, 2001 at 19:14:33 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Pat Conlon -:- Well said, Dermot, cheers, here's another pint NT -:- Mon, Mar 26, 2001 at 21:58:49 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Dermot -:- nothing much wrong with forum I mean! nt -:- Mon, Mar 26, 2001 at 19:17:31 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Jim -:- That's illogical, donner -:- Mon, Mar 26, 2001 at 02:06:25 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ donner -:- That's illogical, donner -:- Mon, Mar 26, 2001 at 02:17:18 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Katie H. -:- feeling left out -:- Mon, Mar 26, 2001 at 02:28:19 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Jim -:- Mike, I'm with you but isn't it unavoidable? -:- Mon, Mar 26, 2001 at 02:23:27 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ such -:- no dogma,hazing- Not ok:'harass the new guy'.JIM!! -:- Mon, Mar 26, 2001 at 04:03:25 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Jim -:- What's wrong, such? Can't you read? -:- Mon, Mar 26, 2001 at 04:34:56 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ such -:- sometimes subliminal truth masquerades as'joke'(nt -:- Mon, Mar 26, 2001 at 05:05:48 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Jim -:- fuck off, will ya? -:- Mon, Mar 26, 2001 at 06:02:39 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Pat Conlon -:- gentle swami...... -:- Mon, Mar 26, 2001 at 04:34:26 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ such -:- r.e.aliases:rt of privacy,people's own business(nt -:- Mon, Mar 26, 2001 at 05:09:58 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ such -:- repecting personal space, boundaries,+ safety (nt -:- Mon, Mar 26, 2001 at 05:14:16 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ donner -:- Mike, I'm with you but isn't it unavoidable? -:- Mon, Mar 26, 2001 at 02:50:44 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Joe -:- One other thing -:- Sun, Mar 25, 2001 at 20:10:06 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Katie H. -:- confirming what Joe said about 'ot' -:- Sun, Mar 25, 2001 at 20:27:48 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Pat Conlon -:- OTs helped me to get to know the people behind -:- Sun, Mar 25, 2001 at 22:10:25 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Richard -:- You are correct donner -:- Sun, Mar 25, 2001 at 19:35:19 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ donner -:- You are correct donner -:- Mon, Mar 26, 2001 at 02:00:52 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Katie H. -:- to michael donner, re the forum -:- Sun, Mar 25, 2001 at 19:17:39 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ donner -:- to michael donner, re the forum -:- Mon, Mar 26, 2001 at 02:06:42 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Susan -:- good points and hard to address -:- Sun, Mar 25, 2001 at 18:51:50 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Katie H. -:- right on, Susan -:- Sun, Mar 25, 2001 at 19:43:30 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Katie Darling -:- I'm curious, too -:- Sun, Mar 25, 2001 at 15:52:05 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Jerry -:- I'm curious, too -:- Sun, Mar 25, 2001 at 17:11:51 (GMT)
__ __ cerise -:- Marijuana = to GET HIGH -:- Sun, Mar 25, 2001 at 03:58:51 (GMT)
__ __ __ Pat Conlon -:- Marijuana = to GET HIGH = fun with Victoria -:- Sun, Mar 25, 2001 at 10:10:47 (GMT)

jondon -:- Premies are back from Portland -:- Sun, Mar 25, 2001 at 01:43:06 (GMT)
__ such -:- Invasion:Body Snatcher;Mind terrible thing to Lose -:- Sun, Mar 25, 2001 at 23:12:58 (GMT)
__ Dermot -:- Premies are back from Portland -:- Sun, Mar 25, 2001 at 02:41:56 (GMT)
__ Ulf -:- Premies are back from Portland -:- Sun, Mar 25, 2001 at 01:49:49 (GMT)
__ __ jondon -:- They said that it was a ...... -:- Sun, Mar 25, 2001 at 12:44:52 (GMT)

marsha donner -:- hello and more -:- Sun, Mar 25, 2001 at 00:35:09 (GMT)
__ Roger eDrek -:- thanks! -:- Sun, Mar 25, 2001 at 20:52:16 (GMT)
__ Cynthia -:- hello and more...thank you marsha... -:- Sun, Mar 25, 2001 at 19:26:24 (GMT)
__ Connie -:- hello and thanks -:- Sun, Mar 25, 2001 at 12:37:11 (GMT)
__ Brian -:- A request -:- Sun, Mar 25, 2001 at 03:58:12 (GMT)
__ __ marsha -:- A request -:- Sun, Mar 25, 2001 at 14:26:06 (GMT)
__ __ __ Brian -:- A question -:- Sun, Mar 25, 2001 at 16:34:35 (GMT)
__ __ bill burke -:- Thank you Marsha, do post again...nt -:- Sun, Mar 25, 2001 at 05:15:40 (GMT)
__ __ __ such -:- hi again, bill...nt -:- Mon, Mar 26, 2001 at 04:33:15 (GMT)
__ __ __ marsha -:- Thank you Marsha, do post again...nt -:- Sun, Mar 25, 2001 at 14:30:03 (GMT)
__ sean -:- hello and more -:- Sun, Mar 25, 2001 at 02:49:27 (GMT)
__ Ms. P. -:- Namaste, Marsha, You Go Girl! -:- Sun, Mar 25, 2001 at 02:49:15 (GMT)
__ Pat Conlon -:- Marsha please don't leave, please, please -:- Sun, Mar 25, 2001 at 01:58:44 (GMT)
__ Selene -:- thanks SO much Marsha -:- Sun, Mar 25, 2001 at 01:39:02 (GMT)
__ __ Richard -:- Very powerful story, Marsha -:- Sun, Mar 25, 2001 at 01:53:38 (GMT)
__ Susan -:- thank you Marsha -:- Sun, Mar 25, 2001 at 01:22:48 (GMT)
__ Dermot -:- Hi marsha.. -:- Sun, Mar 25, 2001 at 01:16:36 (GMT)
__ Mercedes -:- hello and more -:- Sun, Mar 25, 2001 at 00:50:33 (GMT)
__ Ulf -:- hello and more -:- Sun, Mar 25, 2001 at 00:45:45 (GMT)
__ __ donner -:- hello and more -:- Sun, Mar 25, 2001 at 00:53:46 (GMT)
__ __ __ joe -:- just a hello -:- Mon, Mar 26, 2001 at 17:20:21 (GMT)
__ __ __ Ulf -:- hello and more -:- Sun, Mar 25, 2001 at 01:07:51 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ salam -:- hello and more -:- Sun, Mar 25, 2001 at 05:42:24 (GMT)
__ JHB -:- hello and more -:- Sun, Mar 25, 2001 at 00:44:11 (GMT)
__ __ Kev -:- hello and more -:- Sun, Mar 25, 2001 at 11:25:22 (GMT)

Joy -:- Guru = GREATER THAN GOD? -:- Sat, Mar 24, 2001 at 21:27:15 (GMT)
__ G -:- claiming to be God -:- Mon, Mar 26, 2001 at 00:51:57 (GMT)
__ __ Joy -:- Okay, Jim and G, I admit I'm not exactly correct -:- Mon, Mar 26, 2001 at 03:31:03 (GMT)
__ __ __ G -:- well said and ... -:- Mon, Mar 26, 2001 at 05:46:53 (GMT)
__ __ moldy warp -:- Great link G wot foul lies EV is short for EVIL nt -:- Mon, Mar 26, 2001 at 01:40:31 (GMT)
__ P.T.Lurker -:- Guru = GREATER THAN GOD? -:- Sun, Mar 25, 2001 at 14:56:50 (GMT)
__ __ G -:- now brought to you by DVD Ji -:- Mon, Mar 26, 2001 at 01:16:16 (GMT)
__ Jerry -:- Guru = GREATER THAN GOD? -:- Sun, Mar 25, 2001 at 14:27:54 (GMT)
__ suchabanana -:- the Prem model Lazee-Boy deluxe Armchair Traveler! -:- Sun, Mar 25, 2001 at 05:43:31 (GMT)
__ __ Joy -:- Breath Counting etc. -:- Sun, Mar 25, 2001 at 06:44:44 (GMT)
__ __ __ Pat Conlon -:- Joy I resisted taking drugs for BP -:- Sun, Mar 25, 2001 at 09:22:09 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Katie H -:- blood pressure (ot) -:- Sun, Mar 25, 2001 at 16:18:49 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Joy -:- blood pressure (ot) -:- Sun, Mar 25, 2001 at 16:25:08 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Katie H -:- blood pressure (ot) -:- Sun, Mar 25, 2001 at 17:09:59 (GMT)
__ __ __ such -:- the breath stuff IS good for lowering BP etc. -:- Sun, Mar 25, 2001 at 08:48:34 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Joy -:- Good Social Commentary -:- Sun, Mar 25, 2001 at 16:32:42 (GMT)
__ Jim -:- Sorry, Joy, but I'm not with you there -:- Sun, Mar 25, 2001 at 03:27:51 (GMT)
__ __ Lester -:- Sorry, Joy, but I'm not with you there -:- Sun, Mar 25, 2001 at 08:58:34 (GMT)
__ __ __ Pat Conlon -:- Thanks Lester, as a newbie -:- Sun, Mar 25, 2001 at 09:24:51 (GMT)
__ __ Joy -:- He's Still Claiming to be GREATER -:- Sun, Mar 25, 2001 at 06:38:27 (GMT)
__ __ sean -:- I remember that one -:- Sun, Mar 25, 2001 at 05:36:07 (GMT)
__ Mercedes -:- Guru = GREATER THAN GOD? -:- Sun, Mar 25, 2001 at 00:57:18 (GMT)
__ __ Richard -:- Joy, I've got most Divine Light, AIID, DT, EV -:- Sun, Mar 25, 2001 at 02:13:11 (GMT)
__ __ __ Joy -:- Hang Onto Those, Richard -:- Sun, Mar 25, 2001 at 02:49:22 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Katie Darling -:- HP = a nasty sauce from England! nt -:- Sun, Mar 25, 2001 at 03:05:53 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Brian Smith -:- Similiar to Daddy's Sause, another english -:- Sun, Mar 25, 2001 at 06:56:34 (GMT)
__ donner -:- Guru = GREATER THAN GOD? -:- Sun, Mar 25, 2001 at 00:43:26 (GMT)
__ __ suchabanana -:- bingo! (nt -:- Sun, Mar 25, 2001 at 02:32:41 (GMT)
__ __ __ G -:- one time he admitted ... -:- Mon, Mar 26, 2001 at 01:04:06 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ such -:- capricious to suit his fancy:da Karma Chameleon(nt -:- Mon, Mar 26, 2001 at 04:29:05 (GMT)
__ Dermot -:- Joy...he also said -:- Sat, Mar 24, 2001 at 21:55:30 (GMT)
__ Pat Conlon -:- Guru = GREATEST LIAR ON EARTH -:- Sat, Mar 24, 2001 at 21:45:16 (GMT)
__ __ Katie Darling -:- 'Focus upon the form of Guru Miragey... -:- Sun, Mar 25, 2001 at 03:08:07 (GMT)
__ __ __ Dermot -:- 'Focus upon the form of Guru Miragey... -:- Sun, Mar 25, 2001 at 03:18:58 (GMT)

scottc. -:- assumptions -:- Sat, Mar 24, 2001 at 20:33:21 (GMT)
__ Ms. P -:- assumptions -:- Sat, Mar 24, 2001 at 23:09:34 (GMT)
__ __ scottc. -:- assumptions -:- Sun, Mar 25, 2001 at 00:29:21 (GMT)
__ Lesley -:- are you referring to the evil hindu santaism? -:- Sat, Mar 24, 2001 at 22:54:52 (GMT)
__ __ scottc. -:- are you referring to the evil hindu santaism? -:- Sat, Mar 24, 2001 at 23:02:53 (GMT)
__ __ __ Lesley -:- are you referring to the evil hindu santaism? -:- Sat, Mar 24, 2001 at 23:27:16 (GMT)
__ Hal -:- Assume- makes an ass out of u and me -:- Sat, Mar 24, 2001 at 21:54:09 (GMT)
__ __ scottc. -:- Assume- makes an ass out of u and me -:- Sat, Mar 24, 2001 at 22:58:14 (GMT)
__ __ __ Katie H. -:- Assume- makes an ass out of u and me -:- Sun, Mar 25, 2001 at 20:52:09 (GMT)
__ __ __ Joe -:- And do you also -:- Sun, Mar 25, 2001 at 20:42:31 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ scottc. -:- And do you also -:- Sun, Mar 25, 2001 at 22:33:10 (GMT)
__ __ __ Katie Darling -:- Hyperbolic froth -:- Sun, Mar 25, 2001 at 01:58:07 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ scottc. -:- Hyperbolic froth -:- Sun, Mar 25, 2001 at 18:21:38 (GMT)


Date: Sun, Mar 25, 2001 at 23:16:13 (GMT)
From: Gossip
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: K.session this weekend in UK.
Message:
FA, reverting to anon. on this post please, to keep the tit-bits flowing.
Friend of a friend invited to a hotel near Heathrow. Got put up overnight, and given K by dvd at some point in the proceedings. This is the new way?
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Mon, Mar 26, 2001 at 18:32:58 (GMT)
From: Lester
Email: None
To: Gossip
Subject: K.session this weekend in UK.
Message:
Yes, and phone calls are happening all over the UK tonight trying to get contributions towards the £10,000 that the session supposedly cost (They are £4000 short).

Another tit-bit: Premlata was the main speaker at an Introductory programme (I refuse to say 'event') at Thousand Oaks sometime last week.

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Date: Mon, Mar 26, 2001 at 16:55:51 (GMT)
From: Jerry
Email: None
To: Gossip
Subject: DVD
Message:
Is there a way to get a copy of that Knowledge session by DVD? I need a review but am too lazy to leave the house for one. Seriously, I bet that's one DVD that's kept under lock and key. I wonder how many copies are in circulation. Imagine, the Knowledge Of God on DVD. There's something about that just doesn't seem right.
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Date: Tues, Mar 27, 2001 at 19:36:52 (GMT)
From: Cynthia
Email: None
To: Jerry
Subject: I'd rather watch the old 'Inherit the Wind' (nt)
Message:
nt
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sun, Mar 25, 2001 at 23:40:04 (GMT)
From: such
Email: None
To: Gossip
Subject: Yes,+order Prem model deluxe 'Armchair Traveler'nt
Message:
http://www.sabrecare.co.uk/contact.html
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Date: Sun, Mar 25, 2001 at 20:23:08 (GMT)
From: la-ex
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: Calling all counselors and do-gooders alike...
Message:
I want to make a proposal here, primarily because there is so much incredible dialogue happening so quickly about the idea of counselling, therapy, 'exiting' etc,...coupled with the fact that the numbers of 'exiters' will be increasing dramatically, it seems...

(Check out the thread by Katie D, called 'exit counselling' below, to see what I'm referring to.)

Can we all agree on some way to share ideas and think about creating something very useful here?

What is the best way?

1-agree to post on a certain night at a certain time and discuss ideas?
2-a chat room?
3-conference call?
4-a few people draw up some guidelines, submit it to the Forum, and ask for comments?

This is getting somewhere...how can we all get together and share ideas to make it work?

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Date: Tues, Mar 27, 2001 at 13:56:05 (GMT)
From: Kap
Email: None
To: la-ex
Subject: Calling all counselors and do-gooders alike...
Message:
My Friendship Ranch is still the only positive thing that has emerged from all this talk. This is a positive project that will save your soul. Get into it . Be here now! A project of a beautiful Ranch were we can all retire and vacation in peace. For Ex premies only
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Date: Tues, Mar 27, 2001 at 20:59:37 (GMT)
From: JHB
Email: None
To: Kap
Subject: How's the fundraising going?
Message:
and when will the ranch be open for bookings?

John.

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Date: Mon, Mar 26, 2001 at 06:25:13 (GMT)
From: janet
Email: None
To: la-ex
Subject: the chat room is already made and ready...
Message:
when the forum went down for four days, i created a chat room at talkcity titled EPOF5. it is there anytime two or more want to use it. at present it has no ops or moderator but it could, if you think it ought to.
to get there--
start at http://www.talkcity.com

or start here

when the homepage comes in,
look for the icon that says 'chat' and click

on the next screen, look for the input bar that says 'already know what room you want?' and type in EPOF5

you can register as a onettime visitor, or you can decide to register as a membmber of talkcity so that your name in chat can't be used by anyone else.

if you're familiar with chat and IRC, you can use pIRCh and mIRC and bookmark the room.

i like talkcity because it doesnt have the annoying stop and go format of so many other chat services like traffic signals. you just type your words and enter and up they go.

i cant use java chat either, so a lot of other chats are useles to me.

but the room is already in place, to serve the purposes of this site. consider it my contribution to the effort.
the topic of the room is registered 'for ex-followers of Prem Pal Singh Rawat'. the public can see that and wonder who the hell that is, but those who need it will know.

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Date: Mon, Mar 26, 2001 at 09:38:52 (GMT)
From: salam
Email: None
To: janet
Subject: fuck talkcity
Message:
everytime you have posted this, I have tried to login, but the shitheads don't except my passwords. I happen to have a trace scrambler on my browser so they do not collect stats on me, my cookies are disabled and they don't like it, so they can stick it up their nose. Find somewhere else.

p.s. don't take this personally.

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Date: Mon, Mar 26, 2001 at 10:36:17 (GMT)
From: janet
Email: None
To: salam
Subject: re talkcity
Message:
if you went i dont know if anyone would even be in the room. people would have to decide to go over there at a known time, for there to be anyone but you and the greeter bot.
i understand your wanting not to be tracked,but im not clear on how you registered your password. did you go thru the steps of registering yourself as a member of talkcity with a chat name that no one else could log in with? is that the password you mean? the one you put on your own membership? if so, did you scramble yourself when you were doing it, or after you completed it, left, and came back another day?
they do have a means to come in anonymous, thru e-z-talk lite. cookies and trackers wouldnt matter then.
you know they track so that if anybody uses the rooms to stalk or commit crimes in the real world, they have info for prosecution. but if you made a membership for yourself and then deny them ability to ID that its really you, they arent gonna let you in. we have had some sicko cloners this last year.

can you think of a way to solve this logjam?

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Date: Mon, Mar 26, 2001 at 10:45:29 (GMT)
From: salam
Email: None
To: janet
Subject: I can trash their website.
Message:
Will that solve the problem?

Seriously, I clicked on the link, typed EPOF5, was asked for a name and a password, I type haraji in both cases but still did not work. My patience in cases like that is very short. I have already smashed few monitors, am running short here.

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Date: Sun, Mar 25, 2001 at 21:21:00 (GMT)
From: Dermot
Email: None
To: la-ex
Subject: Calling all counselors and do-gooders alike...
Message:
hmm as long as the end result doesn't end up like that recent UK Elan Vital synchronisaton psycho babble organisation......I couldn't even work out what the fuck they were talking about!!

I personally found this site alone within and without the forum was more than enough to help me and evidently it has helped all the other exes here from the first few people who started it 4 yrs or so ago to the present.

Maybe I have an aversion to such an overtly organised 'official' approach because eventually it will inevitably create a life of its own....maybe I'm wary of a 'frankestein' being created....the road to hell is paved with good intentions etc etc

But I hear what you're saying ....for those who wish to do it and for those who wish to receive it I'd wish you all the luck in the world.....personally anything beyond the forum and maybe personal email would have been anathema to me.....BUT I SPEAK FOR MYSELF ONLY !!!!!

Good luck and Best wishes

Dermot

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Date: Sun, Mar 25, 2001 at 20:40:16 (GMT)
From: Sir Dave
Email: None
To: la-ex
Subject: Non exit councelling
Message:
I have already arranged something and have two of the Michaels who will be assisting. However, I have desisted from calling it 'exit counceling'. Rather I have put forward the idea that there be a few people who would be willing to help anyone, premie, /ex-premie or non-premie who feel they need to talk with someone away from this site.

The help will be either by email, phone or both. Again, I don't agree with the term 'exit councelling' because it narrows the field and in my own experience, when you need help you do not need a label.

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Date: Mon, Mar 26, 2001 at 03:40:08 (GMT)
From: The Former Ellen B. Good
Email: None
To: Sir Dave
Subject: Non exit councelling
Message:
Starting in 1983, I tried every type of therapeutic modality to deal with clinical depression that Knowledge hadn't fixed during the previous 10 years. (John Horton told me I wasn't meditating enough if I was depressed).

Seeking inspiration, I started reading the Forum in 1997 (all the while, feeling creepy like M would know, but I was totally hooked). Within 6 months, I was deprogrammed--thank you all!! Sir Dave's site, AG, revealed to me the truth about my MPD, so now I'm all fixed. ; ) At least I recognize it.

I don't read this site very often anymore, but the stories about how M spent his time between festivals/events or (whatever they're called) are quite fascinating. Now I don't feel so bad about the drinking/drugs/orgies/lifestyle I had. I was a fringe premie who never lived in an ashram, partied often, and felt guilty about it at festivals.

Never could fit in anywhere, but just reading the forum was enough for me to break free mentally.

Again, thanks.
eb

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Date: Mon, Mar 26, 2001 at 17:20:57 (GMT)
From: Selene
Email: None
To: The Former Ellen B. Good
Subject: am awake now
Message:
The forums were enough for me too Ellen.
But I think IF one can find the right kind of conselor that some people benefit from that and may even need it to help sort out the M thing.
Mine is very good that way. She went to see M when she lived in Florida ages ago and was not impressed. So we have been able to work on that along with the other weird things I have going on.
Anywone who could do this type of thing would need a LOT of experience and training, I'd think.

It's good people want to try to make an organized effort here but I am not sure it would work. We can't even meet for chat. but best of luck to you guys.

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Date: Mon, Mar 26, 2001 at 09:48:15 (GMT)
From: salam
Email: None
To: The Former Ellen B. Good
Subject: Don't be so selfish
Message:
and keep it to yourself, tell us more. The party has been on for a while. Wanna dance? :)
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Date: Mon, Mar 26, 2001 at 06:12:50 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: The Former Ellen B. Good
Subject: Hi, Eb!
Message:
Where you been anyway? We've all got Smart Cards now. How'd you get in without one?
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Date: Mon, Mar 26, 2001 at 15:26:40 (GMT)
From: eb
Email: None
To: all
Subject: Busy with drugs/drinking/orgies OT
Message:
in my spare time, of course.
Thanks for the warm welcomes!
I'm serious about the deprogramming--the forum is where it happened for me because I was able to actually 'think' about topics previously forbidden. And although I didn't consciously believe M to be God by 1997, I still carried a lingering fear that maybe he was.
Has anyone calculated the number of hours we averaged immersed in listening to satsang-drivel while focusing on our breath? Especially all the hours at festivals! (I just had a memory--screaming bole shri's in Miami--shiver).
Back to the party...
eb
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Date: Mon, Mar 26, 2001 at 17:21:01 (GMT)
From: Nigel
Email: None
To: eb
Subject: Have a large one for me, eb
Message:
Good to see you here eb. I'm just off outa here for a bit - but, anyway hi!
Nige
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Date: Mon, Mar 26, 2001 at 05:53:03 (GMT)
From: Joe
Email: None
To: The Former Ellen B. Good
Subject: Ellen I miss your wonderful, wry humor....(nt)
Message:
nt
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Date: Mon, Mar 26, 2001 at 04:36:58 (GMT)
From: Selene
Email: None
To: The Former Ellen B. Good
Subject: lots of love eb
Message:
It's revealing isn't it?
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Date: Mon, Mar 26, 2001 at 04:15:37 (GMT)
From: Katie H.
Email: None
To: The Former Ellen B. Good
Subject: Ellen, so nice to see you here - love you (nt)
Message:
nt
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Date: Mon, Mar 26, 2001 at 03:44:54 (GMT)
From: Richard
Email: None
To: The Former Ellen B. Good
Subject: Welcome Ellen - that's an encouraging story.
Message:
It's encouraging that you reading the forum gave you what you needed to recognize the truth for yourself. Thanks for sharing it here and welcome!
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Date: Sun, Mar 25, 2001 at 21:02:49 (GMT)
From: moldy warp
Email: None
To: Sir Dave
Subject: Some thoughts on nonexit couselling
Message:
This is just a collection of thoughts that have occurred to me as I have read this thread.
This forum is a really good place to lurk and just read as one is going through the first 'stages' (or any) of 'exiting'.
The fact that there is no pressure, or official 'exiting procedure' implied (ie by a specific link) is very liberating and the opposite of EV crap.
So, I think, any overt advertising about talking to exes about leaving the cult would have to be very subtley done to avoid frightening anyone away at a deeply confronting period in their lives
And the exes involved in the process would need to be very careful and tender with exiters...no pressure ...instead very democratic and open. The last thimg we need is to make people feel we are the ones 'to look up to' as an aspirant was brainwashed into 'looking up to' a premie.
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Date: Mon, Mar 26, 2001 at 00:12:49 (GMT)
From: Sir Dave
Email: None
To: moldy warp
Subject: Some thoughts on nonexit couselling
Message:
And very valid points you make too. As I hinted at below, when I first started reading and posting about Maharaji on the net, I was appalled at the pressure that was put on me from a few ex-premies to change my way of thinking. I was repulsed by such attempts to tell me what to think!

Actually, I don't personally think I'll ever really get over the Maharaji thing. I put too much of my heart into it for too long and one never goes back to 'normal' after such a thing. A bit like how one never really can go back to normal after dropping acid.

My small help and support safety net is not primarily aimed at people to exit Maharaji's cult. If they want to exit, so be it but the people who are involved are not going to try and pressure anyone into changing their view. That is not the nature of the help which I think is needed. I am offering a safety net for people, premie or ex-premie who need help beyond what this forum or the premie sites have to offer.

Why am I doing it? I guess the same reason why I've done anything here on the net regarding Maharaji - because it needs to be done. And the people involved are diverse and very uncultlike. This is more about immediate personal contact with someone when it is most needed. Contact with someone who cares. Isn't that one of the reasons why we devoted ourselves to Maharaji - because we cared what happened to people and couldn't bare to see suffering in the world.

Actually, I do look up to the people who have voluntered to help in this way. But I mean that in the best possible way, because they are fine people.

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Date: Sun, Mar 25, 2001 at 20:50:07 (GMT)
From: Richard
Email: post@rmi.net
To: Sir Dave
Subject: Sir Dave, about Non exit councelling
Message:
David, could you email me about your idea? I'd like to be of help if appropriate for me to do so. I saw your thread about this but it vanished rapidly as they all do these days.

Richard

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Date: Sun, Mar 25, 2001 at 20:34:43 (GMT)
From: la-ex
Email: None
To: do-gooders
Subject: a few other points...
Message:
1-I see no need to argue or compete, as to the merits of the Forum.
Some people love it, others don't.
I'd leave it just as it is.

We can have both.(Forum, plus an 'exiting' section).

2-maybe the proposed 'exiting' section should not be a forum(as Katie mentions, who would monitor it....good point)

Maybe it could be a series of steps that people were led through that would encourage them to begin the self-examination process by themselves.
I've been involved in the 'Option Process' which is a form of 'Socratic Dialogue' taught by the Kaufmans. It is extremely simple,but can be extremely insightful and powerful. It's also easy to understand and practice yourself.(just one idea)

We don't want to get in the business of 'saving' anyone.
They need to 'save' themselves, but we can assist in their journey, especially with stories,information and encouragement.

Maybe people could e-mail in questions, and a list of 'exit counselors, for lack of a better title, could answer those questions every so often.

I don't know..'Dear Abby' for the premies or something?

It wouldn't be a live forum like Forum 5 is, but something in between the 'live' forum and a static web page.....

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Date: Sun, Mar 25, 2001 at 20:33:30 (GMT)
From: bill
Email: None
To: la-ex
Subject: here?....nt
Message:
dghk
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Date: Sun, Mar 25, 2001 at 03:16:30 (GMT)
From: Katie Darling
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: Keeping the 'exit counseling' conversation alive
Message:
There has been a thread among recent-fast-disappearing threads about how to help premies exiting, what kind of therapy works, should we have a link on here to appropriate counsellors, or have another moderated forum or something.

I and others who have mentioned being counsellors get a lot of e-mails, and this indicates a need that I think would be really valuable to try and fill somewhere on EPO, at least with good links. BTW, officially, 'exit counselling' refers to a particular practice developed by certain people post-deprogramming. I am using it the way Joe did below, in a generic sense.

I posted the following below, as a thread was disappearing, and am reposting to keep helpful discussion going:

'Here's some quick thoughts on what I found particularly helpful in working with people (not only premies) exiting cults.
I'm personally mostly on sabbatical rebuilding my bod, and not available any more for this, although I did it for years.

The trouble with going to people for therapy who don't have any experience in a cult is that they can occasionally (not always) be too judgmental, without really understanding. Then the exiting person just gets a subtle experience of being fixed and shamed by an authority figure... same old same old...

Here's some quick thoughts on what I found particularly helpful in working with people (not only premies) exiting cults.

**Some of the stuff that needs to get cleared from the cult experience is similar to an addiction problem. One becomes addicted to the cult highs even though many other parts of one's life are falling apart. A person may transfer to another addiction (substances, for example) when leaving if the underlying roots of the addiction aren't addressed.
*** Talking of addictiion...There is usually some resisted emotion or belief that holds a whole pattern of addiction in place. I've played with some of my therapist buddies at actually listing addictive substances according to the emotion that they help a person avoid (e.g. marijuana = resisted grief, alcohol = fear, coke = rage, chocolate = heartbreak or even heart-opening). I'm not being moralistic here, BTW, I'm talking about ADDICTION, which hurts oneself and others. I wonder what emotions being a premie helps one avoid? I think it is different for each person, but the sensation of personal power would seem to be a contender... and grief, fear, rage, heartbreak...?
*** It's really important to tease out the various layerings of beliefs involved in a person's cult addiction. For example, there may be a layer of what we now consider unhealthy beliefs inculcated directly from MJ. This Forum is a really good place to have a lot of these beliefs reflected on and deconstructed. Then there is a deeper level of personal belief that makes one susceptible to these in the first place. Throwing off the first level of beliefs doesn't necessarily mean one has thrown off the second. For example, let's say one has (perhaps unconsciously) the underlying belief about oneself that 'I'm no good,' or that 'my personal power is too much' (and there are innumerable childhood scenarios that might tend to support such beliefs, and there may be innate tendencies too - as per some twin personality studies). Then you come along and run into MJ and it's a match! You know in your heart that he is your Lord and what he says is true, because he is speaking your deepest 'knowing' about life and yourself. It's really good to have some kind of counselling that goes deeper than just debriefing the cult experience, but also causes one to delve into the underlying patterns that brought one into it.
*** It's really, really important to validate the positive experiences a person has had. Otherwise, a counsellor, as the new temporary guiding person, is once again asking the person to deny a part of themselves that has been real, just as MJ did to us. Some people on the Forum do this to premies who are wavering, probably with wellmeaning intent, but it's a bit like the birds grabbing the baby turtles as they stumble towards the ocean, as I think Joy put it...Then you just get the ole pendulum effect where people get very confused after a while and then go numb and kind of disintegrate inside, invalidating their own past positive experiences that THEY created through their effort, faith, etc... And then a person feels they have to jettison this sincere, spiritual or idealistic world-serving part of themselves. I have worked with more people in this kind of confused space than directly on their way out.
*** The best person to work with an ex-premie is an ex-premie, because you can give the most realistic validation of anything the client wants to throw up as a unique, special, inarguable proof of the specialness of MJ. You've been there, done that, felt that. You are hopefully experiencing something better now. You are very helpful to an exiting person in this dual role.

I just had an idea. Perhaps if there are local groups of ex-premies, they could hold an occasional invitation-only group meeting for premies considering leaving, or who left whenever, but feel they may have unresolved issues. Perhaps one or two fairly skilled people could coordinate it. These kinds of things work best, I think, with skilled facilitation by someone who is more recovered, and a lot of grass roots support where people can get to just speak and be heard, without being 'corrected.'

Actually, I'd be willing to do an occasional group like this in the SF Bay area along with some of my esteemed buddies from here, whom I'm looking forward to meeting very soon... Even one time might be valuable (don't want to commit to a new job as I'm sliding out of the one I have!).

Also, I could make a few suggestions about a minimalist format that might work. I bet some of you other therapist-counsellor types could too.

I think this is really, really worth talking about. I haven't lost my passion for real service, and I don't think many of us have... and helping people who are trapped in a limited, fearful mindset is a real service.

Yes, yes, katie darling, and so is taking care of your nasty cough a service! Yes mom!

Love Katie Darling.

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Date: Mon, Mar 26, 2001 at 00:59:56 (GMT)
From: salam
Email: None
To: Katie Darling
Subject: KD
Message:
am glad this turned out to be a good post.

Nice to see you back.

Salam

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Date: Sun, Mar 25, 2001 at 18:30:25 (GMT)
From: Susan
Email: None
To: Katie Darling
Subject: list of therapists?
Message:
Dear Katie,
I would like to see a list of therapists on the breaking free part of ex premie org. I suppose there could be concerns about endorsing these people and lawsuits. But, perhaps a disclaimer could be attached?
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Date: Sun, Mar 25, 2001 at 17:32:05 (GMT)
From: donner
Email: None
To: Katie Darling
Subject: Keeping the 'exit counseling' conversation alive
Message:
great post...see my comments below.
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Date: Sun, Mar 25, 2001 at 04:36:24 (GMT)
From: Babs
Email: ralphie@ralphiescafe.com
To: Katie Darling
Subject: On the benefits of therapy
Message:
I walked out of the cult twenty-two years ago but I didn't start seeing a therapist until three years ago.

I called and scheduled my first appointment with him because I wanted to work on anger. I seemed to be feeling a lot of anger that wasn't directly caused by or related to the events of my life. My extremely patient husband called it 'Id Rage,' a sort of all-pervasive anger that never went away completely and flared up easily, despite the fact that I had been taking Zoloft daily, religiously (!) for about six years.

So I didn't seek help from an exit-counselor. I didn't realize I still had unresolved issues with Maharaji.
I didn't even mention to my therapist that I had been involved with a cult when I was in my twenties.
But one day I was sitting on the floor playing with his wooden blocks, and I kept building this altar/throne
platform/thing over and over, and the next thing you know I was singing twameva and arti.
Very entertaining for him, no doubt.

I painted a chair draped in white satin with a sunburst backdrop in rainbow colors. He asked me if I could sit in a chair like that and I was absolutely appalled. 'Of course not!' So he asked me to paint a chair that I could sit in, and I painted one of those ladderback Mexican chairs with cane seats, bright, gaudy flowers on each of the slats of the ladder.

He asked me to look at both chairs and find something, anything they had in common. I looked and looked. Couldn't think of anything. Took them home. Still couldn't think of anything.
Finally hit on the notion of bugs. Bugs are everywhere. Maybe they're so small we can't see them, like dust mites, but there could be microscopic bugs sitting on Maharaji's chair and on my chair, yes?

I found a sheet of bug stickers from some long-forgotten little girls' birthday party, you know, the party favor collectible type stickers, and I stuck ants all over my paintings of the chairs. I stuck a big green praying mantis right in the middle of the satin-draped throne, one claw raised as if he was preaching and gesturing. I mounded ants on the satin foot-pillow; a yummy lunch for the mantis after his speech.

It was fun making fun of Maharaji but it was scary, too. It wasn't until I actually revealed the four techniques to my therapist that I finally felt like I was free. Writing about my cult experiences for The Sun magazine was very therapeutic, too, as was writing my 'Journey' for this site. I'm certain I still have stuff to work through, but at least I'm off the Zoloft now. I can imagine that having another ex-premie as a counselor would save quite a bit of explanation... I can also imagine a roomful of exes draining their glasses, hurling them into the fireplace, and gleefully shouting 'that ******* bastard!'

So if anybody in Denver wants the name of a great addictions counselor, Naropa graduate, who is familiar with ex-premie angst, feel free to e-mail me; and if anybody in Denver wants to drain and hurl glasses, ditto. It's almost Spring and Persephone is rising!

Love,
Babs

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Date: Sun, Mar 25, 2001 at 06:41:23 (GMT)
From: Katie Darling
Email: None
To: Babs
Subject: On the benefits of therapy
Message:
He he he he. I don't remember reading about this in the Sun either.

The amazing thing is that this was years after you had supposedly 'forgotten' about Miragey. I guess that's what inspires me to at least keep a conversation going about this stuff. I didn't know until I knew how much deep wounding I had, and how much help was possible, and maybe some people reading here are in the same situation. I know that I was brought up in a family that absolutely reviled anything smacking of therapy (even though my mom was an experimental psychologist - rats in mazes, you know). Then I went on to another family that absolutely reviled therapy - MJ's world. I had to be hurting pretty badly to break my own taboo and get some help. I was surprised to find how important it was in my happiness.

Ah... bugs and mantises, thrones and foot-pillows. just goes to show how much FUN we can have clearing our Miragey stuff dont-it?

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Date: Sun, Mar 25, 2001 at 06:10:25 (GMT)
From: Richard
Email: None
To: Babs
Subject: On the benefits of therapy
Message:
Wow Babs, praying mantis and ants? Wow. Too late for any witty observation but, wow!

Which issue of Sun were you in? I've subscribed for years.

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Date: Sun, Mar 25, 2001 at 03:38:25 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Katie Darling
Subject: Marijuana = resisted grief? Where's THAT from?
Message:
Just curious, Katie, where do you get this stuff?
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Date: Sun, Mar 25, 2001 at 06:19:50 (GMT)
From: Katie Darling
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Marijuana = resisted grief? Where's THAT from?
Message:
Don't know if you really want to know?This is only intended for people for whom it feels helpful. I'm not up for arguing, but I'm happy to tell you 'where I got this stuff,' although it was in chatting with other therapists that I put it into words.

Had a lot of clients over the years into various different substances. The example you picked, marijuana: lots of people who accessed incredible creativity or mellow feelings by smoking dope, but as they greyed into their forties, mostly couldn't get creative without dope, and the 'creativity' seemed to be looping round and round. I started to notice that they were people with a lot of unfelt grief. Often, when they felt and integrated it, they were able to be creative, mellow, etc. without dope (or with). The dope had previously been a way of bypassing the sadness to get them more in touch with a part of themselves. I noticed similar things with other substances: they were bypass devices to help people get around intense unresolved feelings to a zone where things felt okay.

The main point I was really making in my post was: what was the MJ and K drug helping us bypass, emotionally? Different for different people, just as my little substance rundown is just a generalization that I threw in to make this other point. And in relationship to therapeutic issues of exiting, I think that looking at what we needed it to avoid in ourselves can be helpful. And I was making the point that we may still be avoiding that, in which case we may not be really healed or recovering ourselves, just switching avoidance strategies.

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Date: Sun, Mar 25, 2001 at 18:41:33 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Katie Darling
Subject: Sorry, I'm not with you
Message:
Don't know if you really want to know?This is only intended for people for whom it feels helpful. I'm not up for arguing, but I'm happy to tell you 'where I got this stuff,' although it was in chatting with other therapists that I put it into words.

Katie,

You've always struck me, right from the start, as a really neat, intelligent woman. Was it five years ago that we first met on alt.support.ex-cult? You and Scott Perry answered my question: has anyone ever heard of the former, teenage Lord of the Universe, Guru Maharaj Ji? You posted as 'Unlimited' and it was wonderful meeting you then. Someone, at least, remembered this bizarre trip. Fortunately for me, both of you were nice and thoughtful. Yet, even then I think we sparked a bit, you and I. I never had enough respect for your counselling world and I think that set us off against one another a bit.

So what's new, eh? I'm still me and I still have some real doubts about this stuff. For example, I must say I'm not surprised by your reaction above to my question about the pot = grief theory. Why is it that you counselling types so often aver frank, non-counselling discussions about the theories you use in counselling? If yours was a scientific theory, I couldn't imagine you responding to my question with that classic, 'sensitivity' litmus test of a question: do you really want to know? What are you screening for? Sincerity? Yeah, I asked. I wanted to know. Big deal? No. No big deal. It's a discussion.

Okay, so then you do elaborate, thank you very much. Here's your explanation:

Had a lot of clients over the years into various different substances. The example you picked, marijuana: lots of people who accessed incredible creativity or mellow feelings by smoking dope, but as they greyed into their forties, mostly couldn't get creative without dope, and the 'creativity' seemed to be looping round and round. I started to notice that they were people with a lot of unfelt grief. Often, when they felt and integrated it, they were able to be creative, mellow, etc. without dope (or with). The dope had previously been a way of bypassing the sadness to get them more in touch with a part of themselves. I noticed similar things with other substances: they were bypass devices to help people get around intense unresolved feelings to a zone where things felt okay.

What's going on here? You seem to be defending a theory -- that pot smokers have a lot of unfelt grief -- but the theory's never clearly on the table open for debate. Sorry, Katie, nothing personal, but that's what I hate about the counselling world. There's not much room for open dialogue. Say I was one of your clients, say I smoked dope and say you laid this theory on me. Say, of course, that you did it as graciously, appropriately, sensitively, kindly, patiently, warmly and caringly as possible. Sure, I'll give you all that. Indeed, I wouldn't expect that you, knowing you the little I do, would ever be any less than that (that's meant to be a compliment, by the way). Say you even did it for free. Even still, I think there'd be all sorts of pressure for me to adopt your theory no matter what I really thought and no matter whether it's really true or not. Honestly, isn't that the case?

What I'm saying is that I think that counselling as a practise too easily smothers free debate. In so doing, it opens the door for all sorts of ideas that otherwise wouldn't see the light of day to find warm, sheltered comfort, comfort, perhaps, they just don't deserve.

You know, you say that you and some of your therapist friends 'played around' with listing some of these 'addiction correlations'. I don't mean to be rude but did you ever stop to think that maybe you guys were just making shit up and that perhaps it's unethical to try to impose these ideas, no matter how gently, on your clients as if you really knew what you were talking about? Is it the 'play' part of the exercise that somehow makes it all alright? Where's the accountability? Or is it all somehow just a bit beyond words?

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Date: Sun, Mar 25, 2001 at 15:50:45 (GMT)
From: Katie H.
Email: None
To: Katie Darling
Subject: Marijuana = resisted grief? Where's THAT from?
Message:
Hi Katie (and as you said, this is only for people who 'want to know' - snicker) -
I think those are NLP concepts, although I could be wrong. I found them helpful myself. The one I particularly remember is cigarette smoking is an anger suppressor. This is TRUE - in my experience!

BTW, this COULD all be related to brain chemistry - but I doubt if it's been quantified experimentally - I think it's all empirical.

Love,
Katie H.

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Date: Sun, Mar 25, 2001 at 15:57:38 (GMT)
From: Katie Darling
Email: None
To: Katie H.
Subject: Hey Katie
Message:
Yes (I gave up smoking when I got K come to think of it) but.... did you get the actual point I was making (which was to use substances as an analogy and to suggest figuring out what the 'substance' ofMJ and K might have been drawn in to suppress)??

I mean, who cares about the drug stuff? Well, apparently it's an ISSUE (snicker).

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Date: Sun, Mar 25, 2001 at 18:34:20 (GMT)
From: Susan
Email: None
To: Katie Darling
Subject: Hey Katie D=marijuana=drowning feelings of guilt?
Message:
Any research on that? I have wondered if some people drown their conscience with lots of pot.
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Date: Sun, Mar 25, 2001 at 16:03:47 (GMT)
From: Katie H.
Email: None
To: Katie Darling
Subject: Hey back, Katie
Message:
Yes, I did get the point - but I did get sidetracked by the analogy :).

A lot of people here have said that M & K has the effect of emotional retardation. I have heard so many recent exes say that they have the emotions of a 20-year-old in a 45-year-old body. Perhaps addiction to the M and K 'substance' has something to do with not wanting to take on personal responsibility? Or is this too easy?

Love,
Katie

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Date: Sun, Mar 25, 2001 at 16:05:34 (GMT)
From: Katie H.
Email: None
To: Katie
Subject: Also, suppressing the 'dark' or 'shadow' side
Message:
That was a big part of it for me, as I just wanted that part of myself to GO AWAY so I wouldn't have to deal with it.
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Date: Sun, Mar 25, 2001 at 08:23:02 (GMT)
From: Jerry
Email: None
To: Katie Darling
Subject: I'm curious, too
Message:
Katie,

As a student of psychology, how much studying of brain chemistry have you done? Don't you think marijuana just alters brain chemistry, and in doing so just makes people creative where otherwise they wouldn't be? I'm only talking about certain individuals. Obviously, not everybody becomes a creative genius after a toke or two. But the main point I'm trying to make is that I don't think marijuana, or any other substance, opens doors or bypasses them as you suggest, to who we are. I think it just changes us because of the effects it has on our brains.

I disagree that there's a 'real' us that needs to be confronted instead of being sidestepped through the use of substances and/or gurus. And to be honest, if there's some kind of substance out there that can change me from sad to happy, without me giving up my freedom, or without any longterm negative effects, bring it on. It's all just brain chemistry as far as I'm concerned, so if science ever finds that magic pill, which I'm almost certain someday they will, I'll be one of the first in line.

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Date: Sun, Mar 25, 2001 at 17:30:29 (GMT)
From: donner
Email: None
To: Jerry
Subject: I'm curious, too
Message:
this conversation is both interesting and frustrating for me...like the forum generally. someone (in this case katie d.) starts a serious thread about exit counselling and next thing we know it becomes a conversation about the pros and cons of pot smoking, brain chemistry etc. is this deliberate or unconscious sabatage?

have a look at the whole list of threads today, most days and it feels very much like (to me of course) a group of friends chatting about various topics, random hits, few jokes and ...well kinda cultist really.

this raises the issue that was the context for this thread in the beginning...how to most effectively present material in a way that is most useful for current premies, fence sitting premies to engage in their personal process of recovery from the m cult.

now, maybe i've got the whole thing wrong and don't understand the place this forum has within the whole of the ex site. maybe the ex-site home page needs to be enhanced to steer those seeking recovery from the cult help to other corners of the site...counselling corner, keeping the best of posting corner up to date etc.

but frankly speaking, i get a mixed message for the regulars posting here...seems on one hand that they (we) want to be in contact and in conversation with those working towards exiting. the other message is that its a place to chat and share jokes and inuendo with the others posting.

now, of course it does not have to be either or, but many folks posting lately (my self included) spoke to being turned off to the site as a source of reliable information or conversation without trashing, and the whole thing quickly moving into trivia, blaming and flaming.

maybe a separate forum for all the ot stuff perhaps. certainly i am ready to hear more about understanding the sublties of this site and its hoped for place in bring assistance to others.

and one comment on katie d's original point...until we move from anger and blame...both wonderful and natural places to go and feel when leaving such a cult...and into looking at what it is within us (me) that i did...what i wanted, what i got out of the situation that i choose...then recovery is not complete. once again, there is no guru without devotee...the old velcroe concept of the hook and pin...without the hook inside me for the message of the guru there is no connection. and i believe that without figuing out that part of myself, my own needs, drives and weaknesses, i will replace the guru with something else, with other relationships similiarly structures...will find other ways to give my power away, to avoid my own power and miss making my own contribution and establishing relationships that are not co-dependent.

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Date: Mon, Mar 26, 2001 at 01:41:39 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: donner
Subject: You sure about all that, donner?
Message:
and one comment on katie d's original point...until we move from anger and blame...both wonderful and natural places to go and feel when leaving such a cult...and into looking at what it is within us (me) that i did...what i wanted, what i got out of the situation that i choose...then recovery is not complete. once again, there is no guru without devotee...the old velcroe concept of the hook and pin...without the hook inside me for the message of the guru there is no connection. and i believe that without figuing out that part of myself, my own needs, drives and weaknesses, i will replace the guru with something else, with other relationships similiarly structures...will find other ways to give my power away, to avoid my own power and miss making my own contribution and establishing relationships that are not co-dependent.

I don't mean any disrespect to you, Katie or even Katie for that matter [joke!], but I don't buy any of that. To me, this entire sentiment, complete with relevant jargon about 'co-dependency' and 'recovery' is far off the mark. Is this an open subject for you or not? The reason I ask is that I've found, right here on this forum in fact, but elsewhere as well, that people defend this kind of 'recovery' thinking with something like religious zeal at times. For instance, they're quick to brand me this or that ('in denial' perhaps?) simply for challenging the idea.

How about you? Open topic or taboo?

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Date: Mon, Mar 26, 2001 at 02:10:12 (GMT)
From: donner
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: You sure about all that, donner?
Message:
open discussion jim. no probs...but those sentiments are my current life experience and have been helping me greatly take more responsibility in shaping my life into more peace and enjoyment and greater intimacy in my relationships. but go ahead, shot (no jim, not your own foot!)
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Date: Sun, Mar 25, 2001 at 22:04:00 (GMT)
From: Jerry
Email: None
To: donner
Subject: What did I say that was so wrong?
Message:
My response was in direct proportion to things Katie D contends are true, like this stuff about different drugs being used to cover up various emotions. Maybe that's so (although I think marijuana is tied to grief, cocaine is tied to rage is a load of malarkey), but that doesn't mean we are running from who we 'truly' are. We're just changing it. Granted, an argument can be given that because personality changes are effected by drugs, that makes them not real, but still, I'm a little surprised that you and Katie think I've gotten offtrack by responding to that aspect of her post. She started it, not me. What am I supposed to do, just divine what's most important in what's being said and respond accordingly?

If you don't want to discuss something, don't start a discussion on it. And anyway, what does exit counselling have to do with drugs to begin with? Katie seems to think there's a correlate between drug abuse and guru worship. Maybe there is, but if you ask me, that's stretching it, and not even worth investigating. If anybody needs exit counselling on anything upon leaving the cult, it's on their shattered dreams, not what they were running away from by running into the arms of their guru. It's pretty obvious what's being run away from, a cold, uncaring world. It doesn't take a brain surgeon to see that. So, where does somebody go to find the love and kindness they hoped would save them in the cult? That's the issue I would address. And why would somebody even run into the arms of a guru for it to begin with, when it's not really there? Got any ideas?

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Date: Mon, Mar 26, 2001 at 01:38:39 (GMT)
From: donner
Email: None
To: Jerry
Subject: What did I say that was so wrong?
Message:
hi jerry...i think they run into the arms of the guru because they think it is there...when they find it is not, they likely run into the arms of someone else, or something else thinking and hoping the same...until they finally realize that its the running elsewhere that is the issue...so the question for me is..why did i run into the arms of m, what was going on for me then and to what extent is it still going on for me now. i want to change the patterns in my life fundamentally.
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Date: Mon, Mar 26, 2001 at 01:55:15 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: donner
Subject: False premise, premies
Message:
donner,

I distinctly recall the wave of 'propagation' that caught me up and likely you too was all about selling the most alluring package possible to everyone and anyone. I can't see how getting k, at least then, was anything more than just catching a wave in the zeitgeist.

It's like cocaine. Everyone was doing it in the late seventies (actually, I missed out because I was in a cult) and I think it'd be facile to suggest that people who fell prey to coke then were out looking for some giant plug to fill a gaping hole. They were just people fucking around, trying to have more fun and getting lost, sometimes with dreadful consequences, in the process.

Cigarettes, same thing. Everyone smoked back in the fifties and early sixties. Is it really that useful to ask what deep dissatisfaction our parents and grandparents were seeking to resolve by smoking? No, I don't think so. They were just smoking.

And how about those hordes and hordes of Indian premies? Personal issues to resolve? More co-dependency to look forward to without deep insights to 'break the cycle' (I'm not sure exactly what cycle we're talking about but there's usually one not far at all when this recovery stuff starts up)? That strikes me as all odd and beside the point. We became premies because we got caught up in a trend. It could have and indeed did often happen to just about anyone. Remember the 'all walks of life' bullshit? Well, it was true to some extent. And no, I don't think that that only means that only the co-dependent or addiction-prone non-hippie types got k. Rather, it was just the unlucky ones.

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Date: Mon, Mar 26, 2001 at 02:46:08 (GMT)
From: donner
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: False premise, premies
Message:
jim...if it was just a big net and you were innocently swimming along then why did we (i) get caught and so many others did not.
i was around many many friends at the time of 72 that thought it was crap but for some reason it did not sound like crap to me...same message, same net...where was i at at that time, what was my pattern, programming til then that resonated with the message when it clearly did not to most of my friends then? this is my side of the dance...the side i want to understand better.

ya, we were caught up...why us...i contend that there is/was somethng in us that is worth understanding better.

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Date: Mon, Mar 26, 2001 at 05:02:03 (GMT)
From: la-ex
Email: None
To: donner
Subject: False premise, premies/disagree with 'trend'..
Message:
Jim-I can't completely agree with your 'trend' theory.
There are parts of it that are valid, but I distinctly remember being told by every person around me, to NOT get into the guru, because he was a fraud, and a money grubber.(they don't seem so stupid now...)

So, there was something pulling me towards M from within me, that was much more powerful than a 'trend'.

I have always avoided trends like the plague, and when 'premie trends' came up, I could spot them a mile away, and knew them for what they were...

So, I have to agreee with Mike....the knowledge craze was there, but it was more than the craze, or fad, that kept me going for so long...I believe the answer to that question is a bit different for each of us, but it might be interesting for everyone to identify the one or two main things that they think caused them to get into it, and why they stayed....it would be interesting to see how long the list went, and what it contained...

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Date: Mon, Mar 26, 2001 at 05:20:16 (GMT)
From: donner
Email: None
To: la-ex
Subject: False premise, premies/disagree with 'trend'..
Message:
would be a great list. my top two would be to 'save the world' via a combination of spiritualism and socialism (cum DUO), the catholic part of me re being an apostle of the lord as the highest possible human potential so, the combination was very powerful for me...a young (fit the prophesies), charismatic leader, combining spiritualism, allowing me to be an apostle with a mission to bring peace on earth. wow. hooked for a long time

to say...played into my deep sense of loyalty, boundless hopefulness that it would turn around and really start working (spread k to the world) and fear of judas story. remember the apostle who joined jesus thinking jesus was gonna free the jews and create a worldly kingdom of heaven on earth and then finding out it was not gonna be like that dispaired and betrayed...oh, not me, no way this was gonna be me....i am still a recovering catholic...all ex catholics are i think.

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Date: Mon, Mar 26, 2001 at 04:53:57 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: donner
Subject: Luck of the draw maybe?
Message:
Hi donner,

I think it's a great question, this 'why us?' or 'why me?', but I think it's got a fairly simple answer: happenstance. I mean, with myself, I know the various little things that occurred in my life leading up to my hearing satsang at a time when it would interest me. Jut a lot of little cultural things, like having a girlfriend whose whole family was into yoga. I thought that was exotic and wanted to impress her, I guess. I wanted to develop something of her older brother, Bob's, apparently 'high' presence.

So that lead to Be Here Now. And that lead here and thatlead there and, next thing you know, my friends, Steve and Dave, are telling me about a guru and, guess what? I'm really into that, man!

I mean, who'll try anything? The young? The naive? Anyone with a little interest in the area?

I realy don't think there was any special anything, good or bad, within me that got me to check out the guru. It could have been heroin, it could have been snowboarding. All would depend on context, social influence, all that stuff.

Yes, some of our friends were more cynical about all ths shit back then but then maybe they just weren't doign exactly the same reading we were. It doesn't take much to make someone even a little interested when, after all, you're being offered eternity-on-a-stick, no money down, try it, you'll like it.

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Date: Mon, Mar 26, 2001 at 05:06:21 (GMT)
From: donner
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Luck of the draw maybe?
Message:
hi again...one last post for the evening...jim, you sound too much like a victim...like you don't make choices and its all 'happenstance' did you say? come on jim, give yourself more credit then that...happenstance? imagine owning your own power...no one to blame just choices you are making each moment, learning from the results and making more choices...becoming a better person each time. good nite jim, warmly michael
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Date: Mon, Mar 26, 2001 at 14:55:24 (GMT)
From: la-ex
Email: None
To: donner
Subject: Luck of the draw maybe?/Jim,I gotta agree w/MD
Message:
Jim-I agree again with Mike.
Your 'happenstance' theory sounds a little weak.
With the presence you have shown on the Forum here, I can't imagine you being the type of guy who would just go with the flow, like the smokers of the 1950's...

I think there's deeper reasons we all got in and got hooked for so long...

I could go with 'happenstance' theory for lets say the TM movement...a lot of college kids paid their $75, got the mantra and practiced for 6 months or so...probably practice once and a while when they feel like it now....I'd call that 'happenstance', but certainly not the M stuff....remember, we all did a lot of things that went against our sense of : comfort, social respectability, career opportunities, relationship possibilities, personal power, family ties,friendships, health, wealth etc. etc.

What I'm saying is that it was powerful, and their are powerful reasons why we went along for so long....'happenstance' would have knocked us out after the first year or so, like many TMers....

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Date: Mon, Mar 26, 2001 at 05:46:45 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: donner
Subject: Oh no, it's Recovery Talk!
Message:
Sound like the Victim, huh? Guess what, Mike. I WAS the victim. Completely. And so were you no matter how much you 'own your own power' (what does that mean, anyway?).

Maharaji hit my life like a carefully prepared sting operation. I'm eighteen years old, like I said, a bit interested in spirituality. Thought the idea of a guru was kind of cool. Thought maybe there were things to experience that were out-of-this-world and all that. Get invited to the big, mansion-y house that was the ashram in Toronto. Everyone doing their subtle love-bombing thing. Then there are the pictures, the genuflection, the satsangs, let's not forget the satsangs! Then you got your shaved-headed 'holy men' coming to town.

Christ, Mike, it was a set up! So I wasn't cynical enough to see thorugh it. Yeah, if there was a mistake that was it but, honestly, can you blame an 18 year old in '72 for not being cynical enough? Don't forget, there was absolutely no negative information to go by. Nothing but the hot, hot press of the guru's myth-making machine for historical context etc.

No, sorry, Mike, it's absurd to say that I wasn't a victim. That's exactly what I was.

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Date: Mon, Mar 26, 2001 at 07:37:15 (GMT)
From: Hal
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Same for me Jim
Message:
Exactly my experience . Also 18 in 1972. Fun loving hippy kid , interested in getting high, music. Thought meditation sounded a bit exotic, like a new drug that none of my friends had tried.

I wasn't looking to fill a gap just thought the premies were an evolution from hippies.

They were a couple of years older than me and talking about the ultimate high, better than acid, world peace......

I didn't like maha when I first saw him...squeeky voice ..couldn't understand him..he wasn't what attracted me one bit. I prefered the baldy saffron robed ones meself..

Hal

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Date: Mon, Mar 26, 2001 at 03:05:17 (GMT)
From: Pat Conlon
Email: None
To: donner
Subject: Donner, were you more passionate and intense than
Message:
your friends who did not fall for Rev Rawat? That seems to be something that I have found out about the exes. They are on a whole a lot more energetic and enthusiastic than ordinary folk, more idealistic, inspired and sometimes introspective. Many of the remaining PWKs seem apathetic and passive. Anyone with any sense of independence or initiative and leaders and self-starters have left.
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Date: Mon, Mar 26, 2001 at 05:29:33 (GMT)
From: donner
Email: None
To: Pat Conlon
Subject: Donner, were you more passionate and intense than
Message:
generally true i think. tho many of my friends then were quite energetic...berkely at the time and running with some deeply commited radicals..but generally true...

i wonder who is still around and getting things done sometimes these days. when i heard that the guy who was once on our bongo list of instructors is/was in charge of security (oh, sorry, safety) at the programs, i had to laugh at the irony of that one.

reminded me of when m use to make instructors...there would be these huge stacks of applications and i (sometimes others, bill paterson before me with same experience as me) would 'screen' them and make recommendations (told to) and m would completely ignore those recommendations and pick some really odd duck (so to speak), saying that he could make anyone an initiator (meaning a good one, no matter how troubled or terrible a speaker, etc), 'just watch me'. and i watched how he basically put many sincere folks into those positions and situations and they fell apart completely, became sick and totally dysfunctional. his personal ego trip.
it became unbearable...and then be assigned to 'clean up the mess' he had made in their lives. part of the last straw of 1984.

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Date: Mon, Mar 26, 2001 at 09:24:29 (GMT)
From: Pat Conlon
Email: None
To: donner
Subject: Donner, thanks - your tales of M's incompetence
Message:
and insouciance keep on opening my eyes more. I am sorry that a catholic idealist (me too - in monastery for two years before M)had to see all that stupidity combined with such power. Well, this time the Judas Iscariot's are right.

Did you ever have experiences of darshan with him in ordinary situations or did that only happen during the darshan line? Don't answer if you don't want to. (By darshan I mean what Jim calls ''the big magic punch.'')

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Date: Mon, Mar 26, 2001 at 00:06:40 (GMT)
From: Richard
Email: None
To: Jerry
Subject: guru worship addictive like drug abuse
Message:
Katie seems to think there's a correlate between drug abuse and guru worship.

Katie D is suggesting they are both addictions and I agree. Both can be treated as an addiction with the root cause being a need to fill a void or mask an emotion. Both are addictions in that when under the influence, you are powerless to stop. It's an interesting modality and perhaps useful to some. It's too bad a post that was so well intentioned causes some of us to pick apart her therapeutic musing. She clarified by saying it was an idea derived from work with her clients. The spirit of the post made sense to me as a way to view guru/devotee thing. Not hard science but a further way to demystify the dealer.

People leaving M&K need help and support. If they come here it is our obligation to provide help. I think that's what she was saying and I agree.

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Date: Mon, Mar 26, 2001 at 01:27:46 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Richard
Subject: Addiction is NOT a good analogue for this cult
Message:
I fully agree with Jerry. Katie was showing us an example of what she and her colleagues have to offer. She didn't have to give the addiction / emotional baggage examples but she did. So it's completely fair game to ask where and how she got them and why she believes they're true. I somehow doubt that if she got an unquestioning laudatory response, no one would be bitching about how irrelevant her original comments were. Challenging the idea is the real problem, isn't it?

Personally, I think the addiction analogy is more misleading than helpful. For one thing, I don't really like to see addiction used for anything but real, physical dependencies because the looser, vaguer usage starts getting pretty meaningless on the margins. Everything becomes an addiction if you're not careful. Even calling things 'addictions'. In any case, addiction problems are usually all about will power and having the wisdom and strength to stay away from something.

The cult, though, is different. It's never as if the cult member knows he's in a cult and just can't find the willpower to stay away. I've never heard a premie, at least, talk about the Maharaji cult that way. Have you? So there's no inner turmoil such as one finds with other addictions and perceived bad habits. Frankly, as we've seen in a number of cases, once someone turns the corner and stops letting the cult tell them how to think, they're out. Thirty year 'addictions', if you will, come to a grinding halt and that's that. Sure, the person might need all sorts of support but I don't think labelling their cult involvement as an addiction serves an purpose save to confuse.

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Date: Mon, Mar 26, 2001 at 01:24:44 (GMT)
From: Jerry
Email: None
To: Richard
Subject: guru worship addictive like drug abuse
Message:
Well, Richard, I don't see it as an addiction. And if some people don't like that I've challenged Katie's ideas about that as well as her notions that there are tailor made drugs for various emotions, well, that's just TFB.

I consider my tour with Maharaji to be based on unfounded beliefs in a God above and that Maharji was His gift to the planet so we could know Him, and be saved by that Knowledge. I didn't get much out of following Maharaji, unlike drugs and alcohol which have a very definite affect, and do alter brain chemistry, thereby inducing addiction because of said alterations which the body comes to rely upon. No such change in physiology happens to a premie where physical withdrawal symptons are the result when you break free from the cult.

Yeah, there's an emotional withdrawal I suppose, but what really happens is you just throw in the towel because M & K just ain't taking you there. But are you now left without a drug to lean upon because of it? I wouldn't look at it like that. That's certainly not what happenned to me. And while I might consider that Maharaji is a means for masking emotions, what I think he really is, is a means for chasing the dream that there really is something more than... this.

That's what I went to Maharaji for. I wanted to believe it was all true, that there was a place inside me that Maharaji had the key to unlock. I was a young man who saw nothing but a vacant regimen ahead of him unless somebody like Maharaji could change that and offer me a way of life other than the drudgery my parents had in store for me. Really, it was just too much to bear, the thought that all my life was going to be was 9 to 5, and then death. Maharaji said no, no, no! Life is so much more than that! So, I checked it out. Sadly, it seems that life isn't much more than that, and Maharaji failed to deliver on his promise that it is.

Now, how does that relate to addiction? And as far as exit counseling goes, for me personally, this website is all I need. If others need more, well, that's them, not me. I don't know what to do about that.

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Date: Mon, Mar 26, 2001 at 03:00:22 (GMT)
From: Richard
Email: None
To: Jerry / Jim
Subject: Would 'dependency' be a better word to describe...
Message:
...the relationship between guru and devotee? Wouldn't you say that's true?

Personally, I quit practing K in 1987 or 1988 when I realized M was an arrogant authoritarian and I was no longer DEPENDENT upon his presence in my life. It was like breaking an addiction and it took several years of physical and emotional work to be know I should quit. I was physically holding fear in my body that had to be released before I felt safe to give up the dependency. So there may be a case for craving darshan as an addiction.

In about 1993, I went to Long Beach to 'check it out' and got re-hooked by the 'drug' of nostaligia. It felt comforting and familiar (despite the bad poetry and devotional muzak) but eventually I felt myself slipping back into a depency on M and his world. Fortunately I recognized 'that feeling' and slammed on the brakes. That ol' time religion is like a drug for sure.

By the way, I did defend Katie's addiction comparison by saying it may be useful for SOME people, not all. I think any way you come to the exit door is a good way. So if there are X number of premies or recent ex-es that benefit from thinking of darshan as a drug - what's the biggie? Others may find the fuel they need in simply knowing M is an alcohol abuser or abuser of devotees or a hit and runner.

Very lively topic so there's obviously a huge charge around this. More food for the mind.

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Date: Sun, Mar 25, 2001 at 20:13:11 (GMT)
From: Joy
Email: None
To: donner
Subject: I Don't Agree, Donner
Message:
I don't agree. I think the diversity of subject matter and type of posts (but always tying back in to the main topic) is what makes the Forum so vibrant and interesting.

Things which aren't exactly on topic are almost always marked OT, so you can choose to read that or skip over, and people also mark NT when there's no text so you don't waste time opening it. I personally like to just peruse the threads and get a great kick out of just the headers alone. I take awhile and am pretty selective about what (and who) I read on here. Sometimes I spend more time just scrolling and deciding what to read than actually reading. You can get a feel for when something's a chit-chat thread, or has some substance.

I think it's a great place for ex's to network and blow off steam and jive and just hang out. There's lots more serious places on the site if people want the straight info.

Just my 2¢
--Joy

P.S. But one thing I do agree with you on, Michael, is your $50 bet that M doesn't read this site. I think it would be too confronting to his self-image as Perfect Master/God Incarnate to read this regularly. Recall how when Mishler and Dettmers almost had him convinced to get down off his throne he always snapped back into his God persona big time. And I can't imagine he posts either. I think ex-s flatter themselves that M is engaging in dialogue with them somehow. It's kind of sad really, like trying to get attention from your dad, who couldn't be bothered with you. No, I wouldn't hold my breath on M posting or reading here, that's for sure. He's no doubt too busy with his new yacht and Gulfstream jet.

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Date: Mon, Mar 26, 2001 at 01:42:44 (GMT)
From: donner
Email: None
To: Joy
Subject: I Don't Agree, Donner
Message:
thanks joy...good points to beef up the other parts of the site then perhaps is the idea and you are correct about it being a place to blow off steam i guess.
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Date: Sun, Mar 25, 2001 at 20:09:59 (GMT)
From: la-ex
Email: None
To: donner
Subject: I'm curious, too/Lets keep the good ideas coming
Message:
I agree with so many things that so many are saying here, that I am beginning to feel that there could be a very valuable addition to the EPO site in the works...

I agree that the forum has its moments of greatness, including humor, insight, spirited debate, wacky humor and stories etc.and also it's moments where people may be turned off....I also think that it might be better focused on the real work of helping people:

1)understand more of the dynamics of the cult:
2)begin the questioning period, and feel OK about it.
3)talk to others about these issues, such as other exes, counselors, people willing to just listen or chat off line etc.
4)determine if they want to exit or not.
5)if they want to exit, to begin the exit process.

If these objectives are to be met, we would certainly need another type of forum or page where these things could be worked on...a place where only these issues were talked about, for a specific reason and purpose.

I think we might be best off if we let the Forum stay just as it is,and begin a different part of the EPO site solely for the 'exiting process'.

This 'exiting' part could contain relevant articles(hopefully not too lengthy or clinical), relevant journeys,'cult list questions' to ask yourself, relevant posts from the archives that dealt with the exiting issue,a place to ask questions that could be answered by a number of people who volunteered to write once in awhile(again, not too much burden on any one person, hopefully), links to good books or articles, counselling centers and networks,possibly e-mails to talk to someone here(have to make sure we don't over-extend ourselves here again)....

There really is a lot of potential here, and a chance to do a lot of good.
It would have to be well thought out and discussed, but I think a simple, clear formula could emerge.
We would want to make certain that nobody gets overloaded with too much work(we're all plenty busy I'm sure), and we would need to have a few discussions and some general guidelines we agreed on.

I do believe that anything we did, if it was simple, clear and accessible, would be helpful.

A lot of this is already here...maybe we just need to look at it all, and rearrange some of it, and put it onto a page that the newcomer is easily directed to, that states that this section is for new people considering questioning their involvement and/or leaving the cult....

I think everyone has a good point here.(maybe we're all holding a different part of the elephant).
Like Donner says, the forum is interesting, but can be offputting as well.(I generally like the rowdiness and unpredictability of it).
I'd favor letting it stay as is, but including another section that would be a bit more serious and educational, that really gets more to the work of understanding,leaving, healing, self-empowerment after leaving, letting go, reconciling with old friends and family members, etc...

I also think that in no way should it be implied that someone could get 'free therapy' here, or that it should be attempted.
But, we could certainly help 'point the way' and encourage someone to get help from the proper sources...

Comments?

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Date: Mon, Mar 26, 2001 at 01:47:00 (GMT)
From: donner
Email: None
To: la-ex
Subject: I'm curious, too/Lets keep the good ideas coming
Message:
one idea might be to put a heading on the home page of names and email addresses of those of us who are willing and interested in having more conversation, uninteruptted so to speak with anyone on the fence so to speak i would put my name there for such. perhaps on rotating basis...something like what sir dave or jean michel suggested a week or so ago.
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Date: Sun, Mar 25, 2001 at 20:28:01 (GMT)
From: JHB
Email: None
To: la-ex
Subject: I'm curious, too/Lets keep the good ideas coming
Message:
Katie,

I've also been thinking about this, and the idea of multiple rooms for the forum appeared in my brain (I notice someone else, sorry forgotten who, had the same idea). Not sure if it could work tho.

But, I think you said we don't direct newcomers to the forum. Sorry, that's wrong. The new site page has the forum as the second item after the introduction. If people skip the into, they will come straight here.

John.

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Date: Sun, Mar 25, 2001 at 20:31:19 (GMT)
From: Katie H.
Email: None
To: JHB
Subject: You're right, John - my apologies to Michael
Message:
It used to be on the bottom of the page (didn't seem to make much difference, though!). I apologize for the mis-statement - and thanks for pointing this out, John.
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Date: Sun, Mar 25, 2001 at 20:19:33 (GMT)
From: Katie H.
Email: None
To: la-ex
Subject: Can some of y'all work on some of this?
Message:
As it stands, the current section of the site that deals with exiting is called 'Breaking Free'. Brian and I wrote this in late '97/early '98 - and yes, it could stand to be updated and improved - a lot. However, I still like the TONE of the pages - I think they are accessible for people who are on the fence.

La-ex, you don't have to be a computer genius to WRITE something, or come up with a synthesis and links to other parts of the site (just write out the URL's!). Also, I know a lot of y'all - including some recent exes - are in touch with each other, so you could work on this together. You don't necessarily have to make a page - just come up with the content. That is the hard part!

About the idea of another forum - it sounds like a great thought, but I have to wonder who would be willing to adminster it!

Take care -
Katie H.

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Date: Sun, Mar 25, 2001 at 20:03:54 (GMT)
From: Joe
Email: None
To: donner
Subject: The Forum as a limited format
Message:
have a look at the whole list of threads today, most days and it feels very much like (to me of course) a group of friends chatting about various topics, random hits, few jokes and ...well kinda cultist really.

I would actually say it is the opposite of a cult. It's just open discussion, although there is a general topicm and if there was anything 'cultlike' about it, you would hear screams from the participants. Yes, some people here have become friends, and sometimes familiarity breeds contempt, but more often I think it's affection, respect, friendship, support, which I don't think any of us will ever be without a need for.

As Katie says, you just can't control how you would like threads to go, and I used to get frustrated with that, but that's just he way it is. Sometimes threads go beautifully, and sometimes they don't, for all kinds of reasons. I think you kind of have to let go of that. Despite all this, the Forum has been amazingly successful, I think partly due to the fact that it isn't regulated much.

The website is the source of all the basic information, and the Forum also ends up as a source for the website. You and Michael Dettmers, bring up information, and that is culled from the Forum and goes permanently on the website, due to the hard work of people like Brian and J-M.

And to answer your question, that seems to be the best way to do it -- to see the forum as an open discussion with a general topic, and then the website as a permanent despository of certain information that comes up on the Forum, so that people can access it permanently.

This Forum isn't for everyone and was never intended to be. Some peole won't like this environment and some will. Part of the limitation is just the internet format, which isn't easily controlled, but I think in the big picture, that's a benefit. And I have also seen that some people say they hate the Forum and don't want to be hear because of the way people are, etc., but I have also seen that that sometimes isn't the real reason. Sometimes people are just not ready to deal with all this, especially in a public forum. That the Forum isn't the way they would like it to be, is I think sometimes, just an excuse.

I agree about moving from anger and blame, I mean as a central focus, although all the anger may never go away, but that isn't a bad thing. One of the reasons I participate here is that I'm motivated by the fact that I wasted years of my life following Maharaji, and this allows me to do something positive about that, to take that negative thing and do something constructive with it. It isn't perfect, but it is certainly having some effect.

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Date: Mon, Mar 26, 2001 at 01:56:11 (GMT)
From: donner
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: The Forum as a limited format
Message:
i guess i must seem like a control freak...just trying to say how it seems and feels to me and others who joined in recently.

what are some of the signs of cultish...certainly not a cult god forbid joe...but notice the language for example...there is an in group, newcomers, use of known (to the in group) abbreviations that us newcomers need to ask about...there is the enemy..which each cultish needs...m for example...then the subtlers labelling that goes on...lurkers for example, and a group of friends even can feel warm and fuzzy to you if you arre one and a bit clickish if you are not...sharing of pictures, inside jokes...spreading of gossip and second hand stories....

joe, these are classic signs of cultish behaviour. and probably there is a place for this...but it might be that it works at cross purposes with helping others to exit, to experience this site as welcoming and non judgemental and safe...yes, they need first and formost to feel safe during the delicate process.
what do you think joe? respectfully submitted

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Date: Mon, Mar 26, 2001 at 19:14:33 (GMT)
From: Dermot
Email: None
To: donner
Subject: Aint nothing much wrong with the much..
Message:
I thinlk you've got to widen your scope rather than intensely studying it thread by thread, day by day.

I'm a new poster (though not a new reader)and as far as I can over the months and years of the forums life I think there has been phenomonally relevant intelligent and illuminating posts.

What are you looking for? To rid the forum of all its comics ...drek, anth, farkel etc etc To rid the forum of all its diverse personalities and characters? To rid the forum of all OT output?
I could go on and on, Mike. And put in place some straight laced,middle of the road cult recovery thereaputic unit? God that'd be disastrous!! That's when you might see the beginnings of a cult( or lets call it counter-cult but it'd be the same thing).

Mike, you've said your new to the net ...well I've been online for years.....don't get too frazzled by netspeak and forumspeak etc that's just the surface culture. I reckon it'd be impossible to control something as fluid,creative and dynamic as this forum.

I think you'll just have to accept the good with bad. the crap with cool, the abusive with the kind....I know you PAMS are used to runing things:-) but if this place turns into some sedated vehicle, I for one would be outa here never to return ( good riddance you may say:-) }

Remember not all of us are driven by some squeaky clean desire to de-cult people in a certain fashion......just being an ex-premie living a life ...working not working...blowing dope not blowing dope, drinking not drinking, following an alternative spiritual path or being an out an out atheist....and on and on it goes.....we are just people with one fundamental common link between us......ex-premies.

However if people want to do things beyond the forum in a more organised way ....then do it .....all power to ya elbow,,,,BUT PLEASEEE just let the forum flow along and evolve naturally.

Just expressing my opinion.....

Best Regards

Dermot

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Date: Mon, Mar 26, 2001 at 21:58:49 (GMT)
From: Pat Conlon
Email: None
To: Dermot
Subject: Well said, Dermot, cheers, here's another pint NT
Message:
k
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Date: Mon, Mar 26, 2001 at 19:17:31 (GMT)
From: Dermot
Email: None
To: Dermot
Subject: nothing much wrong with forum I mean! nt
Message:
zz
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Date: Mon, Mar 26, 2001 at 02:06:25 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: donner
Subject: That's illogical, donner
Message:
i guess i must seem like a control freak...just trying to say how it seems and feels to me and others who joined in recently.

Nothing wrong with that and nothing wrong, either, I hope you'll agree, with me seeming to argue with everything you say here. :) See, smiley face! That's me.

what are some of the signs of cultish...certainly not a cult god forbid joe...but notice the language for example...there is an in group, newcomers, use of known (to the in group) abbreviations that us newcomers need to ask about...there is the enemy..which each cultish needs...m for example...then the subtlers labelling that goes on...lurkers for example, and a group of friends even can feel warm and fuzzy to you if you arre one and a bit clickish if you are not...sharing of pictures, inside jokes...spreading of gossip and second hand stories....

joe, these are classic signs of cultish behaviour. and probably there is a place for this...but it might be that it works at cross purposes with helping others to exit, to experience this site as welcoming and non judgemental and safe...yes, they need first and formost to feel safe during the delicate process.
what do you think joe? respectfully submitted

This cult analogy is bullshit, I'm afraid. It's illogical. Yes, any group of people will by definition have some characteristics in commone with a cult. Why? Because they're both groups of people. It's groups of people that share all these similiarities, like in jokes, and the like. But that's trivial. If it weren't, one would be able to say that any group of people was cultish, in part, and that completely drains the word of its otherwise potent meaning.

You want tell-tale signs of cult activity here, there or anywhere, you better find some of the significant defining traits. You know, stuff like oppressive, authoritarian structure, having an unquestionable cult leader, that kind of stuff. Gossip, even among friends, won't cut it.

By the way, 'lurker' is an internet-wide term for people who read newsgroups or bulletin boards but don't contribute. No one here made it up.

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Date: Mon, Mar 26, 2001 at 02:17:18 (GMT)
From: donner
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: That's illogical, donner
Message:
yes, i went to far no doubt...but jim, try to listen to what some of the new comers have been saying about how it feels...that is the main point here...no aguments really...no significant signs of cult of course jim...not being computer person i am not aware of normal computer language (which also makes me feel like an outsider in this relm)...lurkers, trolls etc.but can you see how some of what we say here and how we say it does not feel too inclusive, welcoming? that is my point really...
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Date: Mon, Mar 26, 2001 at 02:28:19 (GMT)
From: Katie H.
Email: None
To: donner
Subject: feeling left out
Message:
Hey Michael -
If people are feeling left out or not included - that's important. Other people have mentioned that before - in fact, it's been brought up for years. The problem is that, as I said below, I don't see it when I'm doing that, and I don't think other people do either. So maybe you, or other people who feel that way, can gently confront some of us if we are doing that to you?

Re the in-jokes and stuff like that - I'm always willing to explain them (not that they are all that funny - some of them are, though!) There are a lot of really intelligent people here who like to play with words - so you do get a lot of 'site-speak'. I think Richard's idea of a glossary (perhaps including internet terms as well) is a good one.

Take care,
Katie

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Date: Mon, Mar 26, 2001 at 02:23:27 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: donner
Subject: Mike, I'm with you but isn't it unavoidable?
Message:
Isn't it just human nature that people grow comfortable with each other after some time? They develop a common history, some group norms, it's all inevitable. And isn't the corollary that newcomers always feel some initial awareness of that group's environment, if not nervousness or trepidation, when they first approach?

I'm a big boy now but I still feel a little something when I walk into a party. After a bit, I'm part of the group, though, and get to harass the new guy. That's the point, isn't it? [smiley face emoticon in an abundance of caution]

Jim
The Insider

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Date: Mon, Mar 26, 2001 at 04:03:25 (GMT)
From: such
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: no dogma,hazing- Not ok:'harass the new guy'.JIM!!
Message:
this ain't no frat -- no hazing. They even banned that shit in the US Marines. Leapin' lizards and Moldy Madeleine O'Hare's bones!!!

C'mon, man, we already went through this bs. Let's don't keep reinventing the wheel here. no steps backward. get with the program of what lots of people have been saying. Frankly, I thought you were doing really well here of late with your 'cooler' attitude.

with the groovier vibe, Look at all the folks
pickin' up the pieces, and making this joint feel really alive!!

'I get to harass the new guy'. and maybe get your ass dumped on, too, by everybody else again, and again -- duh! So, get that supercilious smirk off your face, man. That ain't even funny, anymore...

donner & co. aren't djuro and some of those other bleeping dweebs (who clearly deserve whatever they get - as well as 'you know who'). Save the smarmy sarcasm for the real shitheads. I thought you grew up, man.

C'mon Jimbo. If this is a party, then let's welcome the newcomers to truly party hearty! make 'em feel comfortable, so they can unleash their inhibitions and FEEL GOOD. A lot of people haven't felt good, Jim, because of this miragey shit - and then the fallout hurts, too, for many. Even discussing it revives a lot of stuff inside that people have kept suppressed - often for many years. You still got anger yourself [and have said as much (even though you weren't even sucked in all that many years)] -- meaning that your shit on the subject ain't all worked out, either. no slip slip sliding - you ol' backslider insider. haha We're all bozos on the bus. You're right that, like any group, it takes awhile for people to feel comfortable with each other. donner and others will come to understand that fact - it's human nature.

Also, just because someone just posted here doesn't necessarily mean they are new to the ex-thingy-wingy. Some people have also been through some changes you or I probably haven't even seen or it made it through yet, too. There's no dogma here. And people like Patrick also need to lay off, too, as you correctly pointed out yesterday with their own agendas of peer pressure. People need a comfort zone around their personal space, vs in-your-face. Most of us just wanna be Free and safe to express who we are, not a new cult mentality.

So, let's roll out the welcome mat! C'mon, bro, plug in the Fender and on with the show -- and let's have some good-time rock-n-roll! The more the merrier...

Peace and lentils,

yo' bro

PS also, some of these new posters have some valuable and helpful information, councilor! piecing together the whole puzzle, helping each other make sense of what was not fully comprehensible - because it had been long concealed -- now revealed.

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Date: Mon, Mar 26, 2001 at 04:34:56 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: such
Subject: What's wrong, such? Can't you read?
Message:
I'm a big boy now but I still feel a little something when I walk into a party. After a bit, I'm part of the group, though, and get to harass the new guy. That's the point, isn't it? [smiley face emoticon in an abundance of caution]

THAT's what you're jumping up and down about? That joke? That most obvious joke? The one I even went out of my way to telegraph as such even though at the time I thought 'really, who'd be stupid enough to miss this one?'?

Sorry, such, but I'm not sorry about nothing. This is ridiculous.

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Date: Mon, Mar 26, 2001 at 05:05:48 (GMT)
From: such
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: sometimes subliminal truth masquerades as'joke'(nt
Message:
nt
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Date: Mon, Mar 26, 2001 at 06:02:39 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: such
Subject: fuck off, will ya?
Message:
Come on, such,

I don't need you to psychoanalyze me. Remember last time? It was a joke, such. You know? Like your puns? A joke?

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Date: Mon, Mar 26, 2001 at 04:34:26 (GMT)
From: Pat Conlon
Email: None
To: such
Subject: gentle swami......
Message:
You said: ''There's no dogma here. And people like Patrick also need to lay off, too, as you correctly pointed out yesterday with their own agendas of peer pressure.''

Which Patrick did that in what post?

Not me! I have five dogs but no dogmas.

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Date: Mon, Mar 26, 2001 at 05:09:58 (GMT)
From: such
Email: None
To: Pat Conlon
Subject: r.e.aliases:rt of privacy,people's own business(nt
Message:
nt
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Date: Mon, Mar 26, 2001 at 05:14:16 (GMT)
From: such
Email: None
To: such
Subject: repecting personal space, boundaries,+ safety (nt
Message:
nt
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Date: Mon, Mar 26, 2001 at 02:50:44 (GMT)
From: donner
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Mike, I'm with you but isn't it unavoidable?
Message:
good question...is it unavoidable? perhaps to some extent not. is it worth being aware of the need to be inclusive and to create a safe envirnoment for the sake of the purpose...and can we elevate our awareness to allow this to happen? i am just trying to contribute to that process.

do you do much mediation work in your lawyering business? mediation requires creating safe environments as a first step towards the possibility of acturally joining together...not falling apart.

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Date: Sun, Mar 25, 2001 at 20:10:06 (GMT)
From: Joe
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: One other thing
Message:
I have actually heard recent ex-premies say they appreciated seing the ex-premies here entering into 'off-topic' threads. I think it was important to them to see us as people with all kinds of viewpoints and interests, personalities, etc. And that certainly comes accross. This helps mitigate against the idea that we are just a bunch of hateful, negative people who refuse to move on, being obsessed with opposition to Maharaji. What comes up in those off-topic threads is that the ex-premiesl are a varied and talented group of people who are doing lots of things in their lives that have nothing whatsoever to do with either Maharaji, or opposition to him.
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Date: Sun, Mar 25, 2001 at 20:27:48 (GMT)
From: Katie H.
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: confirming what Joe said about 'ot'
Message:
Hi Joe -
VP (who you will remember) told me that the only reason he began posted on the forum is because he read an exchange between you and me where we were talking about NFL football (snicker!). That convinced him that we were 'normal people' and not just a bunch of weirdos.

Boy, we sure fooled him :)!

Love,
Katie

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Date: Sun, Mar 25, 2001 at 22:10:25 (GMT)
From: Pat Conlon
Email: None
To: Katie H.
Subject: OTs helped me to get to know the people behind
Message:
names. To get a feel of their characters and trust some and dismiss others.

Perhaps a section for newly exiting cultees would be good. I have thought that several forums might help. Each dedicated to certain topics: new exits, philosophical discussions, cult history and reminiscences, baby throwing contests etc. Just kidding baout the last one. But you catch my drift I hope.

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Date: Sun, Mar 25, 2001 at 19:35:19 (GMT)
From: Richard
Email: None
To: donner
Subject: You are correct donner
Message:
Your points are all well said and much needed. The forum is all of those things and it is sometimes frustrating to see a well intended idea devolve into squabbling or one upmanship. I lurked (read but did not post) here for a couple of years, partly from a National Enquirer guilty pleasure but mostly for the chance of occasionally reading a thread that would help me. In the past several months, the quality and consistancy of information I find useful has increased. But still, if I sent a friend here, they may find powerful revelations or in-house squabbling depending on the day's content. Frustrating to not know for sure they'll get the message.

A few observations about this forum:

• It's made of a diverse group of former devotees of Maharaji plus the stray current devotee. Some will agree with a point, some disagree and others pick up on some minor detail and derail an otherwise good topic (as you said about this one).

• A lot of really good information gets exchanged here concerning the truth about M. Some is heresay or inuendo and there should be more accountability.

• A lot of banter takes place as an escape valve / comic relief. It's much needed. Off topic threads are begun with OT in the header and this is useful.

• Another site called Anything Goes was started to handle a lot of the flame wars and OT stuff. (You should have read here before that was started.)

• Every new poster contributes his / her unique viewpoint. Every day it seems, there are more viewpoints arriving. For example your comments above helps raise the bar in terms of staying on purpose.

• There is a huge amount of information available on the website at http://www.ex-premie.org (button at the top of this page) other than what's posted here. Unfortunately, newcomers probably come to the forum and never see the other stuff. That does need attention.

• This site was created by and run by volunteers and the content is ever evolving. Again, the intention of the site is ever changing - hopefully towards staying on purpose.

It is important for me to remember my purpose here as you said above your purpose was to figure out the guru / devotee - velcro thing.

My purpose here is to:
• Figure out the Richard that was drawn to GMJ and Knowledge in 1972.
• Keep alive the parts that are healthy (inspired, passionate, creative, etc) and let go of the destructive ones (giving power away, self worth projected on others, not taking responsibility for my choices).
• Tell the truth about myself in relation to M&K and hopefully help others while doing so.

When I remember those things before posting, my posts are (IMHO) much more effective.

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Date: Mon, Mar 26, 2001 at 02:00:52 (GMT)
From: donner
Email: None
To: Richard
Subject: You are correct donner
Message:
well said thanks for sharing the backgroud and insights.
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Date: Sun, Mar 25, 2001 at 19:17:39 (GMT)
From: Katie H.
Email: None
To: donner
Subject: to michael donner, re the forum
Message:
Hi Michael -
You wrote:
this conversation is both interesting and frustrating for me...like the forum generally. someone (in this case katie d.) starts a serious thread about exit counselling and next thing we know it becomes a conversation about the pros and cons of pot smoking, brain chemistry etc. is this deliberate or unconscious sabatage?

I'd have to say unconscious, and I don't think the people who derail the threads think of it as sabotage, but rather as standing up for their personal beliefs. For example, someone can (and has) write a brilliant post about their ideas about M's motivation and psychology, and then end the post with something like 'M is a typical Saggitarius'. The thread then ends up being an argument about the validity of astrology. I see this as 'off topic' but many people here do not.

Also, some people here are quite against any form of counseling or therapy, as you may have gathered. I'm glad Katie D. keeps bringing it up, personally - and it sounds like more people on the forum NOW are able to relate to what she has to say.

One thing I've observed over the years on the forum is that threads tend to degenerate into off-topic, arguments, and jokes as they get longer. (Maybe because of the law of entropy - snicker!) This isn't always the case, though, so it can be frustrating trying to find relevant posts.

You wrote:
have a look at the whole list of threads today, most days and it feels very much like (to me of course) a group of friends chatting about various topics, random hits, few jokes and ...well kinda cultist really.

In my experience, lots of on-line forums are like this - in-jokes, personal friends talking to each other, and so forth. I really wouldn't call it 'cultist' - I think that's a bit extreme. The problem is that you really do not notice the clubbiness of the forum when you are IN it - so I think it's good for people to keep bringing the subject up.

this raises the issue that was the context for this thread in the beginning...how to most effectively present material in a way that is most useful for current premies, fence sitting premies to engage in their personal process of recovery from the m cult.

now, maybe i've got the whole thing wrong and don't understand the place this forum has within the whole of the ex site. maybe the ex-site home page needs to be enhanced to steer those seeking recovery from the cult help to other corners of the site...counselling corner, keeping the best of posting corner up to date etc.

Actually, the homepage doesn't steer people towards the forum, in my opinion, anyway - it's at the bottom of the page of links, and you have to go through the forum introduction page first. BUT, the forum seems to be the page that everyone wants to look at first. It's obvious that some new posters here don't bother to look at the rest of the site first - understandable, I guess, but frustrating.

but frankly speaking, i get a mixed message for the regulars posting here...seems on one hand that they (we) want to be in contact and in conversation with those working towards exiting. the other message is that its a place to chat and share jokes and inuendo with the others posting.

now, of course it does not have to be either or, but many folks posting lately (my self included) spoke to being turned off to the site as a source of reliable information or conversation without trashing, and the whole thing quickly moving into trivia, blaming and flaming.

The forum IS both - and also I can tell you that it is extremely difficult to control the content of the forum without alienating people (and without severely stressing the FA's). I used to post on another ex-premie forum where there was an attempt made to control content, and it was difficult to post 'acceptably' there.

There is always going to be a certain amount of chit-chat (OK) and unsubstantiated gossip, blame, and flame (not so OK) on here because the discussion is not moderated - or is very lightly moderated. I'm sorry if this turns people off - really! - but I don't think I or anyone else wants to get into controlling what people post here. And it does tend to be dynamic and ever-changing - sometimes you'll get a week of really relevant and helpful posts, and then sometimes you'll get a week of chit-chat.

I do think, though, the 'in-group' thing that you mentioned could be somewhat corrected if people were more aware of it. As I said earlier, it's hard to see it when you're IN it. And I think a certain amount of personal communication and reinforcement is good, honestly.

You wrote:
maybe a separate forum for all the ot stuff perhaps. certainly i am ready to hear more about understanding the sublties of this site and its hoped for place in bring assistance to others.

The original concept for this forum was that it was a place for ex-premies to connect with each other. It wasn't necessarily meant as a place for 'helping others' (if by that you mean people no the fence, or current premies who are struggling.) It was mostly a place for exes to connect, talk about their experiences, meet old friends, etc. It's evolved into a lot more than that - but that was the original intention.

Anyway, as I said, I am sorry that people are turned off by the forum. I agree that it is imperfect, chaotic, anarchistic, unfocused, argumentative, disagreeable - BUT, it's what it is: a dynamic system powered by the people who post here. As I said, I've also been very frustrated by it, but have learned to accept it. I don't think anyone can change the forum without posting on it - and, even then, they might not change it very much - depending on the mood at the time.

Take care -
Katie H.

P.S. and BTW, I think an 'ot' forum is a good idea. One does exist (Sir David's 'Anything Goes', but it's not used by very many people. Most of the people who use this forum are interesting and intelligent and would like to hear each other's opinions on 'ot' stuff (news, movies, music, science, religion, etc.)

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Date: Mon, Mar 26, 2001 at 02:06:42 (GMT)
From: donner
Email: None
To: Katie H.
Subject: to michael donner, re the forum
Message:
as a newcomer, thanks for the background and info...i'm beginning to get the picture more clearly...so i'll keep adding my voice to the mix for the time being. warmly
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Date: Sun, Mar 25, 2001 at 18:51:50 (GMT)
From: Susan
Email: None
To: donner
Subject: good points and hard to address
Message:
I think we should make an effort to direct new people toward reading the ex premie site as a whole, and then the best ofs....

I think there is more than one dynamic on the board. I do think that the primary purpose is to help people out of the cult, expose the cult, and help us all clear out the cobwebs of the cult

But, we in the proccess make friends, and start engaging in 'chit chat', and we have had threads on OT things such as the academy awards, the Clinton/Lewinsky scandal, the election...endless stuff about Chomsky and evolutionary psychology.

And the topic of limiting the discussion to on topic has come up before. The biggest argument against it is the common experience we all shared...the cult. Anything that smacks of censorship tends to set off our ex cult member antennae. We may have to put up with the rambling and hard to get to the good stuff nature of the forum for the sake of freedom of speech. There are a few rules, no threats, no using anothers handle...I am sure more, but the rules are quite minimal.

One idea would be to divide discussion by topics as is done on other net boards. One could come to a main board directory, and see 5 topics lets say...recent ex's, old time ex's, ex PAM, off topic posts and imposters....just kidding. But we could pick 5 topics. I am just not sure I like the idea, but it is something we could explore.

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Date: Sun, Mar 25, 2001 at 19:43:30 (GMT)
From: Katie H.
Email: None
To: Susan
Subject: right on, Susan
Message:
And the topic of limiting the discussion to on topic has come up before. The biggest argument against it is the common experience we all shared...the cult. Anything that smacks of censorship tends to set off our ex cult member antennae. We may have to put up with the rambling and hard to get to the good stuff nature of the forum for the sake of freedom of speech.

This is so true - we used to make jokes about being FA's on a forum where EVERYONE has (understandable) issues with authority - and that includes the FA's themselves. It's not easy - and the FA's often get flak for enforcing even the few rules that exist here.

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Date: Sun, Mar 25, 2001 at 15:52:05 (GMT)
From: Katie Darling
Email: None
To: Jerry
Subject: I'm curious, too
Message:
Thanks for your comments. Funny how my actual point seems to have gone to the sidelines. Did you think I was moralizing against marijuana? If you read my original post, I made it clear that I wasn't, and in my response to Jim, I said that after clearing grief, the people I was describing could be creative without dope, OR WITH.

I'm all for creative chemistry. Nuff said.

Do I think 'there's a 'real' self that needs to be confronted instead of being sidestepped through the use of substances and/or gurus' as you put it? Not 'confronted.' There is certainly a self with less stored-up, unfelt, unacknowledged sadness/fear/anger that feels GOOD.

love Katie Darling

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Date: Sun, Mar 25, 2001 at 17:11:51 (GMT)
From: Jerry
Email: None
To: Katie Darling
Subject: I'm curious, too
Message:
Katie, (or should I call you 'darling'? Is that your real name?)

I was just homing in on one aspect of your post which sparked some of my own ideas about brain chemistry and how that makes us who we are. But I understand the gist of your post is about exit counselling. While I agree that it might be a good thing for ex-premies and premies on the fence to meet and share their experience, I don't agree that 'skilled' moderators are called for. I think just letting people get together and hashing it out, in person, much the same way it's done on this forum is all that's required.

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Date: Sun, Mar 25, 2001 at 03:58:51 (GMT)
From: cerise
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Marijuana = to GET HIGH
Message:
good one Jim, that really annoyed me, all this 'classification' therapy analysis prognosis, a really good money spinner for the new age spindoctors, there's hundreds here and mum's seen them all!!

What's wrong with...

marijuana = to GET HIGH!

oh yea sorry I forgot, I'm just a stupid young chick (pretending to be god knows what) No, a god knows what pretending to be a stupid young chick! who actually thinks she's really smart!!
:C

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Date: Sun, Mar 25, 2001 at 10:10:47 (GMT)
From: Pat Conlon
Email: None
To: cerise
Subject: Marijuana = to GET HIGH = fun with Victoria
Message:
It takes one to spot one, angel-tits.

Sorry to steal your thunder,

Thelma

Oh what fun. Let's get stoned together at the next Latvian Night, Vicki.

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Date: Sun, Mar 25, 2001 at 01:43:06 (GMT)
From: jondon
Email: None
To: All
Subject: Premies are back from Portland
Message:
Well the old timers returned this evening with their stories of the two day event. The first was a splendid day of M telling them how he did not follow protocol and expected to spend the second day with the aspirants and some initiators (instructors).
They also got to see K-lite, the 'new cutting edge technological encrypted magic DVD' of M presenting knowledge. Now the instructors can give knowledge with this DVD and if it gets into the hands of the evil empire (EPO) it cannot be de-coded.

The second day was 4 videos of all new stuff about life, breathing, the simplicity of life, blah, blah, blah......ad naseum. When it was over....nobody moved for 30 minutes, then someone began crying and everyone clapped and laughed with this joy that he has given us.

BOOOOORRRRRIIINNNGGGG

He is sending his message out soon, via new initiators. I have 2 friends going to hear this woman speak at the end of the month. It should be interesting to hear what she has to say. Let me guess: (cut and paste above paragraph). My friends are more excited about the new plush chairs they can park their asses in while trying to stay awake through this crap

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Date: Sun, Mar 25, 2001 at 23:12:58 (GMT)
From: such
Email: None
To: jondon
Subject: Invasion:Body Snatcher;Mind terrible thing to Lose
Message:
nt
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Date: Sun, Mar 25, 2001 at 02:41:56 (GMT)
From: Dermot
Email: None
To: jondon
Subject: Premies are back from Portland
Message:
Hi Jondon

.....and so it goes on and on and on .....same old stuff, same old bullshit.

Btw , what do you your premie friends think about you posting here.....do they question anything? Or is it not spoken about?

Cheers

Dermot

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Date: Sun, Mar 25, 2001 at 01:49:49 (GMT)
From: Ulf
Email: None
To: jondon
Subject: Premies are back from Portland
Message:
Hi Jondon
Do you know , how many people there where at the event
in Portland,
Ulf
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Date: Sun, Mar 25, 2001 at 12:44:52 (GMT)
From: jondon
Email: None
To: Ulf
Subject: They said that it was a ......
Message:
pretty full-house. Lots of the California PAMs were there, Terry Y., R.McD. and his special friend.
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Date: Sun, Mar 25, 2001 at 00:35:09 (GMT)
From: marsha donner
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: hello and more
Message:

thankyou forum Posters for your humanity. I have felt such heart and wisdom and connection with you. Thankyou for your persistence, your availability to those who are beginning their “rites of passage” to claim their own power. It takes courage. I did not have support at that time, mid 80’s, and I believe if I could have fully greived the loss... loss of my whole Idenity when i left m and k, .I wouldn’t have been angry for so long afterward. (anger covers alot of the pain it seems to me) Now, I am 52, playing with a full deck and feel very happy to be alive. I have no regrets. I have been reading the Forum since Michael Donner posted, this will be my one and only post. I wanted to contribute because i appreciate the effort you are all making. It generally feels responsible , honest with good laughs to boot.

So I will share a few insights, nothing really new but just to support the forum and I believe to free my self up more of any m residue. Also because i will feel less like a voyeur. The beginning of my extrication really began after a year and a half of being the servant of the servant’s in Miami Beach. ( I had previously lived in Portand and Eugene hi carol) Semi-close. Some fun, lots of laughs, tons of work, no recognition and burn-out ...plus guilt cause i was sneaking into mikes room everynight...second hand Darshan experience you know!. I lived amonst a circle of exhausted, fearfull and confused young people, very sincere but way to stressed to be conscious of anyone but themselves and getting some form of attention from m. The exclusion game was a big one for me. not being invited to parties-trying to get a glimpse, to feel special. (how embarrassing ly pathetic, but certainly socially acceptable in this circle, even encouraged.) After a few years of therapy, unraveling and relaxation,,those years seem crazy and also perhaps normal for adocesents who lived through the 60’s where all our heros were killed and nixon became pres.

It’s my observation that m fit perfectly into my family scenerio. My dad was not around much , he did not know how to connect with me , he was at times mean and violent. M was the same, not a very nice boy, did not seem to know how to connect (even as he became a young adult,) he often seemed to be entertained by others’ misery , and was abusive (, verbally abusive, and even physically...I remember when Mike blissfully recounted how M kicked him in the balls.)

There were 2 incidences that i would like to convey that cracked my tightly wound belief system around m and k. first one: I was finally invited to become an instructor, part time in 85-86. M had basically totally ignored me up until this conference, i was living with mike donner and I kept finding myself in situations where i was treated like i didn’t exist and it was not a spiritual experience. It was like I did not exisit. I was gaining enough sense of self at that point to realize that i perhaps deserved a bit of respect. duh! Well at the conference I had a very strange experience. m felt like we need a k review so Loring baker was going to teach us how to do the techniques. But I thought ... what.. are you kidding me, I have been faithfully doing this thing for 12 years or so and i even had 2 or 3 significant experiences. I know how to do this simple thing..welll i think(rationaliztion covering up discomfort at questioning m) maybe there is something new, something that will really give me a great meditation. So here comes Loring whom i know, he looks at me with these snakey blank eyes and says in a monotone voice “put the pads of your thumbs here “etc. It was absolutely the same thing i had been doing day after day for years. I suddenly felt weird and tried to connect with him. I said,” loring i know how to do this ( nervous giggle) your kidding... right.”...and then he restates exactly what he had just said ..”.put the pads of your thumbs here”.etc. . he was so cold,, like a robot...well i felt punched in the stomach. Again that feeling of hey where is the respect for me, i am not stupid, i have been loyal for years, this is not what k is all about, putting thumbs in your ears just right? Where is the connection. I began to unravelright then and there. I talked to others but they kind of had the same snakey look except for the cynics like Mike and his buddies who were used to this stuff. But i think i was beginning to see how i acted to others when they had doubts or were in their mind and it was not right. It felt cold. Funny little thing that became huge for me. I quit the instructor scene the day i got the call that i could be one . How we happen to unravel is so unique to each of us. for me I began to really see m’s flaws and I began to allow myself to feel the feelings of hurt, disgust, loss., I guess i could go on and on but it seems everyone will see what is important for them as they individuate,, as the system failsthem. It is quite an amazing process. it can be scary.. but oh so worth it.

Grief struck me hard. i cried for a long time. Michael was on the edge also but this was a rites of passage for me , I had to do it alone. Our culture is not good at this sort of thing, honoring grief, so there was no room for me in the premie world. It was like being shunned , who would I talk to , cry to, as I told my revelation that m was a man and not a very nice one at that. It was a tough time for both of us. We did not do the break in a very conscious manner, it was strange for a few years. So good job Forum. Please do consider a counseling site. I made it and i have appreciation for my resiliency and a trust to make choices that will further my opening to compassion and wisdom. It is a natural human process of growing up and i feel very tender towards all who are or have embarked on this journey.

The other incident that deeply affected me was in regards to a friend that disclosed how she felt greatly harmed by m. I would say that she felt raped, I will say that i felt it was close to rape and if it felt that horrible then it was. i will also say it was not violent physically but mentally and emotionally it was. I will also say that it was power over someone, a clear abuse of power from one who is narssisstic to extremes over one who felt powerless. I will not write any details or answer questions regarding this incident because it is not my story, Only the effect it had on me. I felt a real sense of helplessness after i heard her story, of her abuse and then her long road to recovery. I told all the premies i could about it.,, i wonder what premies do to justify this kind of behavior in someone they profess to love. Any excuse i gave to m because of his lousy upbringing or that he was just a kid .or the sex..power..guru trip..whatever, could no longer be justified. Abuse (sexual/psychological/emotional) is not ok with me. I feel anger , now when i imagine the pain of this woman, and i feel responsible to encourage those who hear this reality check regarding m that they disengage and stop supporting him. he does not practice what he preaches. H e is an energy suck. The sooner he has no devotees the sooner he will no longer be guru. Of course there are many accounts of his weak character. It would be a better road to recovery for him if his premies really let him go.

Thankyou again and namaste.
marsha( fish mays) donner

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Date: Sun, Mar 25, 2001 at 20:52:16 (GMT)
From: Roger eDrek
Email: drek@oz.net
To: marsha donner
Subject: thanks!
Message:
I quit the instructor scene the day i got the call that i could be one

Wow! That's courage and standing up for your convictions.

And thanks for giving us an insiders view of the ugliness even though you, yourself, were outside of the inner circle looking in as you stated. It really helps me to hear from the people in or near the inner circle because sometimes I will think to myself that I'm being too hard on Maharaji. The rank and file premie on the outside might hear rumors of such behavior, but because of the distance and the constant propaganda efforts by HQ or EV or DLM or DUO or however the rumors lack credibility.

Also, hearing of your personal experience with the Knowledge review is really helpful because I thought the same thing, but again as a lowly premie I would think that I needed to surrender more. And it's really good to hear that the 'higher' premies like yourself were like everybody else - wondering what the hell this shit is about. You know that the lowly field premies like myself thought that you guys were having a higher experience.

Anyway, thanks!

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Date: Sun, Mar 25, 2001 at 19:26:24 (GMT)
From: Cynthia
Email: None
To: marsha donner
Subject: hello and more...thank you marsha...
Message:
Marsha, I don't know what to say, except, that was a courageous post. I want to thank you for your honesty. I also appreciate very much your comments on the grieving process.

It's true that our culture does not allow us to grieve, and so often it's held inside and turns into unbearable pain--especially concerning m.

Maharaji is guilty of so many abuses and I gasped at the one you mentioned about Donner being kicked in the balls. Yes, m is a master of manipulation and abuse. The biggest one for me right now is the spiritual abuse. Unwinding the deepest belief system I ever adopted (adoring him) and believing he was my lord and would ALWAYS care for me, well, it's been difficult.

Thank you again...You sound so clear and healed. I agree with Selene who said below that your post is a definite **BEST OF...**

Warmest regards,
Cynthia Gracie

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Date: Sun, Mar 25, 2001 at 12:37:11 (GMT)
From: Connie
Email: None
To: marsha donner
Subject: hello and thanks
Message:
Reading the active threads today, yours, Ms P's and Lester's stood out brightly for their humanity and sincerity.

Marsha, yours touched me.

I hope if you get the urge, you will post again.

Thanks.

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Date: Sun, Mar 25, 2001 at 03:58:12 (GMT)
From: Brian
Email: brian@ex-premie.org
To: marsha donner
Subject: A request
Message:
Thanks for writing this, Marsha. It's very moving.

If you would be willing to let me put it online in the Journeys section, please email me at brian@ex-premie.org.

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Date: Sun, Mar 25, 2001 at 14:26:06 (GMT)
From: marsha
Email: None
To: Brian
Subject: A request
Message:
My server couldnt send to your e mail.i am a computer idiot..please use the post on the journey site and thankyou marsha d
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Date: Sun, Mar 25, 2001 at 16:34:35 (GMT)
From: Brian
Email: brian@ex-premie.org
To: marsha
Subject: A question
Message:
Great, I'll put it online. Journeys entries remain the 'property' of the person submitting them so if you want to update/remove/add to your entry, you can email me or use the form located on the Journeys page.

Do you want that as being from 'Marsha', 'Marsha D', 'Marsha Donner', or ( ? )?

And thank you - from the many who will benefit from reading it!

As for your mail server not sending to my address, sometimes my server refuses email to a particular address. When that happens to me, I just re-send it (maybe at a later time). The mail server usually comes to its senses eventually :)

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Date: Sun, Mar 25, 2001 at 05:15:40 (GMT)
From: bill burke
Email: None
To: Brian
Subject: Thank you Marsha, do post again...nt
Message:
sdghs
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Date: Mon, Mar 26, 2001 at 04:33:15 (GMT)
From: such
Email: None
To: bill burke
Subject: hi again, bill...nt
Message:
nt
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Date: Sun, Mar 25, 2001 at 14:30:03 (GMT)
From: marsha
Email: None
To: bill burke and all
Subject: Thank you Marsha, do post again...nt
Message:
thankyou for the encouragement of course i will post again if and when i feel i can contribute marsha
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Date: Sun, Mar 25, 2001 at 02:49:27 (GMT)
From: sean
Email: None
To: marsha donner
Subject: hello and more
Message:
Marsha, I hope you will continue to contribute to the interchange around here. I tell myself that somewhere inside their minds, premies who read this forum are actually digesting and processing this stuff far from their devotee minds and it will one day bear fruit. I can't help them much, I'm afraid. I no longer have anything to say to them, I can't even carry on a conversation. They are all worth reaching, maybe something you say will get past the defenses and get them thinking again.
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Date: Sun, Mar 25, 2001 at 02:49:15 (GMT)
From: Ms. P.
Email: None
To: marsha donner
Subject: Namaste, Marsha, You Go Girl!
Message:
What do you think the Lakota would have done with M???
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Date: Sun, Mar 25, 2001 at 01:58:44 (GMT)
From: Pat Conlon
Email: None
To: marsha donner
Subject: Marsha please don't leave, please, please
Message:
I need you. We all need you here to help us out of the lies and deceit of 30 years of Rawat's rubbish. Please hang around for a little while longer and talk wiht us.
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Date: Sun, Mar 25, 2001 at 01:39:02 (GMT)
From: Selene
Email: None
To: marsha donner
Subject: thanks SO much Marsha
Message:
Amazing how we all may have had different details but the same unraveling not matter how close to M in terms of cult organization.

You post meant a lot to me and others as well I'm certain.
If we still have a place to keep 'best of forum' I'd put your post there. Although you may not be comfortable with something like that, don't know.
I know I am going to save it and reread it.

Selene, eating pizza at the keyboard. So much for my spring cleaning.

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Date: Sun, Mar 25, 2001 at 01:53:38 (GMT)
From: Richard
Email: None
To: Marsha
Subject: Very powerful story, Marsha
Message:
Thank you for sharing your amazing, powerful story with us. If I had heard your story or read Michael's letter in 1986 it would have changed the way I've viewed Maharaji since then. I found my inner authority around then and quit practing K after 14 years of daily meditation. I sort of 'put it behind me' and no longer needed an authoritarian leader but never really felt M should be held accountable. That is until I started reading some of the stories posted here. The net has brought many of us together again these decades later and as the stories unfold we're all a bit more impowered with each one.

When Bob Mishler left his service in 1976 and spoke out against M, I asked a former IHQ friend why? His comment was 'you don't want to know, it's just food for the mind'. He was right, I didn't want to know but now I do. Your story, Michael's (he said not to call him Mike) and many others is indeed 'food for the mind'.

So to all the wavering PWK's I say, eat up the mind food's ready and it's scrumptious!

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Date: Sun, Mar 25, 2001 at 01:22:48 (GMT)
From: Susan
Email: None
To: marsha donner
Subject: thank you Marsha
Message:
that was an eloquent post and one I could really relate to. You describe the experience of waking up to the reality of the cult so well, and the sense of fear and aloneness, and loss. I think what you said about loss was so right on.

I hope your friend has found a way to heal from her abuse from M. As stories of that have come out I always think of how absolutely devastating that would have been. I think we all have had a sense of betrayal, and self loathing, after our experiences in the cult. I suppose we all have felt 'spiritually' raped. The hideousness of what women went through when they were also sexually abused in a very real way by someone masquerading as the superior power in person....no comparison. I am glad you told a lot of premies about it I hope it woke a few up. I also respect the tactful way you posted that protected her right to tell the story herself if she ever chooses to.

I can understand why you said 'one and only' post, and you did make it a good one! But please feel welcome to post again if you change your mind. You are very articulate and I am sure I would enjoy reading more of what you have to say.

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Date: Sun, Mar 25, 2001 at 01:16:36 (GMT)
From: Dermot
Email: None
To: marsha donner
Subject: Hi marsha..
Message:
Thanks for your post. Very moving. Like everyone seems to be saying...hope you post some more

Cheers

Dermot

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Date: Sun, Mar 25, 2001 at 00:50:33 (GMT)
From: Mercedes
Email: None
To: marsha donner
Subject: hello and more
Message:
Hi Marsha, thank you for being so open, as a new ex myself I feel this forum has and is invaluable. Also I repeat what i have said other times and echos your words that therapy is essential. So welcome and a big hug to you.
Mercedes
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Date: Sun, Mar 25, 2001 at 00:45:45 (GMT)
From: Ulf
Email: None
To: marsha donner
Subject: hello and more
Message:
Thank you
For your statemens, but surely this is not your first and
only post,is it ?

regards ULF

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Date: Sun, Mar 25, 2001 at 00:53:46 (GMT)
From: donner
Email: None
To: Ulf
Subject: hello and more
Message:
i have the pleasure of living with the wonderful woman who posted here...and enjoy her courage and vision. (it is her first post by the way)
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Date: Mon, Mar 26, 2001 at 17:20:21 (GMT)
From: joe
Email: None
To: donner
Subject: just a hello
Message:
Nice to hear from an old friend,
Hi Marsha
xoxo, Joe
(Eugene)
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Date: Sun, Mar 25, 2001 at 01:07:51 (GMT)
From: Ulf
Email: None
To: donner
Subject: hello and more
Message:
My best wishes to Marsha
and please if she will ,, we wouldt love (need)
to know her also.
Her post here are really importent, everyones statements
is needed, i think more and more

best wishes

Ulf

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Date: Sun, Mar 25, 2001 at 05:42:24 (GMT)
From: salam
Email: None
To: donner
Subject: hello and more
Message:
thank you for making that clear. She sounds wonderfull. Lucky you.
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Date: Sun, Mar 25, 2001 at 00:44:11 (GMT)
From: JHB
Email: None
To: marsha donner
Subject: hello and more
Message:
Great post, Marsha, and I understand why you wouldn't want to post again, but please leave the door open:-)

John.

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Date: Sun, Mar 25, 2001 at 11:25:22 (GMT)
From: Kev
Email: None
To: marsha donner
Subject: hello and more
Message:
Thank you so much Marsha for posting. I am sending a copy of your post to a friend of mine who is still following the nasty little man. I hope your post will help her see the real truth about M.

Thanks again Marsha.

Love & best wishes,
Kev

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Date: Sat, Mar 24, 2001 at 21:27:15 (GMT)
From: Joy
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: Guru = GREATER THAN GOD?
Message:
Down below somewhere someone quotes the Élan Vital FAQ page wherein they ask if Maharaji ever claimed to be God, and EV replies that no, Maharaji never claimed he was God.

I worked closely with Maharaji's satsangs during the devotional 1973-1979 years, typesetting, transcribing them and perusing them for pertinent quotes for the publications. I can confirm that Maharaji never did actually come out and say that he was God, so EV does not lie when they say that. What they omit to tell you is what he did say, repeatedly, and that was that Guru is GREATER than God! The rationale behind this being that because guru reveals God, (which somehow God conveniently managed to not be able to do himself), this makes him therefore greater and worthy of worship instead.

There was a piece of his satsang to this effect which I used to have from him from 1971 when he first came to London. I liked it so much I had it typed up and pasted in the front of my devotional photo album. I wish I had saved it to quote here, but can only remember that the last part was that because guru supposedly bridges that gap between you and God, guru's physical form is precious and to be . . . (here it trails off and you get to fill in the blank--worshipped and showered with diamonds, cash, fancy cars, residences and $40m jets = translates as gratitude in present day EV terminology). He was a master at that (if nothing else), the understated implication. In fact, it's how he runs his whole setup. Plus, he always used to use 'guru' in the third person, but since he was then calling himself GURU Maharaj Ji, the implication was always there that he was talking about himself. So he implied, constantly implied, that he was not just God, but in fact greater than God.

This makes my blood boil now, the absolute cheek of it. I am thoroughly convinced he is the biggest scam artist and trickster on the planet.

In an attempt to lower blood pressure without resorting to drugs, I recently got some tapes on breathwork from Dr. Andrew Weil, a popular alternative healing doctor who does shows on Public TV here in America. In them he speaks openly about pranayama yoga and the technique of following your breath, and instructs how to do this to quiet your thoughts, relax your body etc. (sound familiar?) [This is not actually the reason I got the tapes, there is a relaxing breath he teaches during which you hold and count which is supposed to cure myriad health problems, including the BP.] Anyhow, it struck me as Dr. Weil was detailing these breathing techniques, and ascribing them as basic yoga techniques, that he was giving credit where credit was due and not trying to conscript them as his own property and puff himself up into something he wasn't (i.e. a guru). Which is basically what Maharaji does, he takes common Hindu yoga meditation techniques (see the Radhasoami links on this site) and purloins them as his exclusive property and then sets himself up as the author of whatever experience you may have with them, conning you into paying respect and gratitude to him. What a thief! The extent to which he has gotten away with this is absolutely astounding. That's why I think he is the biggest trickster on the planet and in need of exposé at all costs.

I mean, what if Dr. Weil put on the mala and Krishna crown and started dancing around the stage?! Or did a darshan line, raking in hundreds and thousands of dollars while everyone kissed his feet? Couldn't you just see it, Dr. Weil with his big bushy beard in the Krishna drag?? Perhaps he and M could do a double Hindu Wobble Dance together? The absurdity of it all is just too much to fathom, how M could (and still continues to) get away with this.

[P.S. Apologies to Dr. Weil for using him as fodder for this post; I actually have a lot of respect for him as an alternative doctor and healer, who actually does some GOOD in people's lives and doesn't claim to be anything other than what he is, a mere human being with a lot of medical knowledge.]

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Date: Mon, Mar 26, 2001 at 00:51:57 (GMT)
From: G
Email: None
To: Joy
Subject: claiming to be God
Message:
'Maharaji never did actually come out and say that he was God, so EV does not lie'

Elan Vital's response to the question 'Did Maharaji ever say he was God?' starts with this wording:

'No, Maharaji never at any time claimed to be God. ...'

Someone saying/claiming to be God covers a lot more ground than just coming out and saying 'I am God.' (which means God incarnate). It covers any equivalent of that statement. Prem Rawat, by his words, actions, and lack of action, did claim to be God, in fact he still claims to be God, he's just somewhat more sneaky about it. Consider the quote of Rawat in Jim's post 'Sorry, Joy...', here's an excerpt: '... The highest manifestation of God is Guru. So when Guru is here, God is here ... Guru Maharaj Ji knows all. Guru Maharaji is Brahma (creator). Guru Maharaji is Vishnu (Operator). Guru Maharjai is Shiva (Destroyer of illusion and ego). ... Guru Mahraji is the Supremest Lord in person ...' That's the equivalent of saying 'I am God.' He certainly wasn't talking about Joe Schmo in seat 34Q. He had us sing 'arti' to him, which contains the word 'You are the superior power in person.' He sat there approvingly while we sing this devotional song. He doesn't correct people when they mistakenly believe that he is God incarnate. He has people kiss his feet. He dressed up as Krishna (supposedly an incarnation of God).
Consider if someone dressed up as a police officer, made his car look like a police car, went out and gave people tickets, then arrested and handcuffed someone and took them to the police station. This person would get arrested for impersonating a police officer. He couldn't successfully defend himself by saying 'I didn't say 'I am a police officer.'' I think that would get a few chuckles.

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Date: Mon, Mar 26, 2001 at 03:31:03 (GMT)
From: Joy
Email: None
To: G
Subject: Okay, Jim and G, I admit I'm not exactly correct
Message:
He's claiming it by implication and sanctioning premies' behaviour of worshipping him as such, all the time. This much is blatantly obvious. I guess what I just meant was that I never remember him directly saying it like that: 'I am God'. That would have been too easy to argue with and refute. He's more subtle about it (sort of) and expects it to be understood and to be treated as such. It really is a cunning illusion he has fostered, so unspoken yet so implied. Because Arti isn't sung any more (in the West) those blatant words have slipped from current memory, which is why EV thinks they can whitewash over them, but he still perpetrates the more subtle illusion of himself as God, and it still washes with thousands of indoctrinated old-timers. I guess that's what gets me, is how he can still get away with it to the extent he does.

But you and Jim are both right, he, in his own way, DEMANDS that he be treated as God incarnate, and has even come out and said it straight like you quoted, on the very rare occasion (in the very early days).

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Date: Mon, Mar 26, 2001 at 05:46:53 (GMT)
From: G
Email: None
To: Joy
Subject: well said and ...
Message:
Not only that but he presents this weird idea that he is both God incarnate and also just an ordinary guy. Yes, an ordinary guy who just happens to be God incarnate. Oh, and who cares if this doesn't make any sense to our minds (that is, our reason). That's just mind, you see. In 'Maharaji's world', things don't have to make logical sense. What a crock. He just doesn't want people to see the obvious. He's not pretending to not know everything, he doesn't. He's not pretending to be fucked up, he is fucked up and more than usual.

This reminds me of the fantasy of Clark Kent, mild-mannered reporter, who really is Superman. It's just a comic book, and Krishna is just a fictional character in a novel. Btw, didn't Rawat used to talk about comic book superheroes? Hmmmm.

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Date: Mon, Mar 26, 2001 at 01:40:31 (GMT)
From: moldy warp
Email: None
To: G
Subject: Great link G wot foul lies EV is short for EVIL nt
Message:
X
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Date: Sun, Mar 25, 2001 at 14:56:50 (GMT)
From: P.T.Lurker
Email: None
To: Joy
Subject: Guru = GREATER THAN GOD?
Message:
Isn't the point supposed to be that Guru is greater than God because, at any one given time, there is only ONE 'Perfect Master' on the planet who has the power to 'switch on' the direct line to God? If I remember correctly, in the early 70's, we were told that you HAD to receive 'Knowledge' to be able to experience God (or the life force within, or whatever you want to call it). Meditation WITHOUT 'Knowledge' could only, at best, give one a degree of peace of mind. It was the 'magic touch' of the initiator that was required before any Divine experience was possible. I received that 'magic touch' back in '74, but try as I might, I couldn't seem to make the connection!
Is this still the case today? Does an initiator have to press his finger into ones forehead to impart the necessary connection? Surely now, in the age of the silicone chip, and digital technology, it would be possible to implant a device into the brain (controlled by Maharaj'ji, of course), whereby instantaneous access to the primordial vibration can be achieved? Using a 'pay per view' system, where each time the device was used, one's credit card was automatically debited, Maharaj'ji could still make his money, and the user might be guaranteed an interference free connection every time!
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Date: Mon, Mar 26, 2001 at 01:16:16 (GMT)
From: G
Email: None
To: P.T.Lurker
Subject: now brought to you by DVD Ji
Message:
'I received that 'magic touch' back in '74, but try as I might, I couldn't seem to make the connection! Is this still the case today? Does an initiator have to press his finger into ones forehead to impart the necessary connection?'

No, the 'only way' changed, now it's done by a Most Holy DVD video. Actually, there's multiple copies, so they should all be given names, like DVD Ji, DVDanand Ji, ...

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Date: Sun, Mar 25, 2001 at 14:27:54 (GMT)
From: Jerry
Email: None
To: Joy
Subject: Guru = GREATER THAN GOD?
Message:
Joy,

I'm convinced that the only reason that people receive Knowledge, and then stick around after they do, is because they see a personal saviour in M, himself. Why else would anybody do it? Maharaji is just playing the bhakti yoga card. It's very popular in India. The master is all, and yes, any experience you have with K is attributed to him.

What makes it particularly insidious, and devious, in the west is that nobody admits this is what's happenning. In India, they're very upfront about it, and have no qualms about calling Maharaji 'greater than God'. But in our neck of the woods, it's a game of 'pretend this isn't happenning'. It's apparent Maharaji wants to maintain his role in your experience, but he doesn't want to play the same role, here, as he does, there. Too many complaints, I guess.

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Date: Sun, Mar 25, 2001 at 05:43:31 (GMT)
From: suchabanana
Email: None
To: Joy and Everyone
Subject: the Prem model Lazee-Boy deluxe Armchair Traveler!
Message:
Joy:

Andy went the same route - Wesleyan University in Connecticut, then on up the highway to Harvard Square... [Also, Tim Gallwey captained the Crimson tennis team.]

BREATH COUNTING, etc.:
Joy, the counting bit to which you referred is very much in the Buddhist traditions. The diverse Buddhist groups have tons of variations on breath meditations. The counting is ok for relaxation and just getting into the deeper, healthy breathing cycles and expanding the abdomen, but is not itself considered a pure form of breath meditation [i.e. Dzogchen]. The Buddha had his own different explanations about watching the breath in and out, too. Ditto, the Tibetan lamas -- and hosts of other types of Buddhist monks.

And in the Hindu trad, there are references in the Upanishads and Vedic scriptures, as well.

In one WPC ashram, we used to do the counting bit as a warmup to Holy Name [that is, when the guys were hanging with Joe Lopez]

TRADS AND CORPORATE FADS:
Yeah, I guess the beard makes Andy look like a guru, too, nowadays. Plus, he's making millions of dollars, just like 'you-know-who'. At least Andy's not another 'guru' poser - unlike the pedophile Sly Baba, the money-grubbing Maharishi-Hindu juju clone MD Deepak Chopra [and his brats], the Calvin Klein-clad counsellor-guru-minister of the Morrissey family Enrichment Center, and especially 'you know who', et al ad infinitum.

So, by now, breath meditation (and counting), and holistic living and eating right is all really just basic generic stuff - i.e. what's in Andy's books. Countless people of the beatnik and hippie generations have tried various meditations and diets and hatha yoga for decades; 99.9% of them just aren't into capitalizing on it. (Most of them also don't have the socially approved sanction of MD as a stamp of approval appended to their names.)

When I was in the cardiac ward [family genetic history] even the staid Catholic hospital had videos on all sorts of breathing and relaxation techniques, as well as separate menus for various types of vegetarians/fruitarians. This stuff is all over the place now -- K-mart, Safeway, Costco.

Perhaps I should have gotten my own meditation book out sooner. Hey, Salam [if you're reading this], maybe we really Should rethink that DVD video! haha

Capitalist-corporate General Mills granola, Christy Brinkley yoga videos and Walmart Birkenstocks of the 21st century. It's like a capitalist-spiritualist epidemic. [Whoa there, now I sound like someone else here at epo.] Psst- Wanna buy some genuine Corning crystals. It's good stuff. What's your sign? Let's check your horoscope here in Reader's Digest/Cosmo/Washington Post, etc. You like tie-dye? We got the new Jones New York mini-skirt suit in five delicious tie-dye patterns and colors. And that Jerry Garcia limited-edition necktie will look great with your Armani jacket. diet, anyone? Here's the Aly McBeal 'gorge til you puke' natural slimfast diet.

THE 'ARMCHAIR TRAVELER'!:
Wait, may I interest you in the ultimate, state-of-the-art Meditation chair?! Or, just giving a meditation technique review, or perhaps for those long speaking engagements? How about the Prem model Lazee-Boy deluxe Armchair Traveler?!!! [haha, whoops, excuse me, madam.] For the discerning petite up to full-figured meditator - one size fits all - only the absolute Best, most Comfortable and Luxurious Hi-Tech chair ever crafted will do! Comes with wireless remote, 30 chair and foot settings, 24k gold atomic clock, NASA-tested temperature control, retractable titanium baragon, headrest remote-adjustable mink earmuffs (the mink died naturally, of course), and too many other incredible features to possibly list here. Meticulously handcrafted and perfected from designs developed over 30 grueling years in secret cult labor camps specifically for meditation programs and speaking engagements by the most discerning of all speakers and world travelers. Yes, the Ultimate, creme de la creme in meditation chairs. May I present the Prem Rawat model Lazee-Boy deluxe Armchair Traveler!!! Voila! It also disassembles and fits into this beautiful velvet-lined, fiberglass case [same material as used in the Stealth fighters]. Speaking of expensive airplanes, this baby will easily stow in the storage compartments of any of the larger luxury jets -- including the Gulfstream G-4, G-5, Boeing 747, and even the President's Air Force-1 aircraft. The price? Uh, well, it's kind of like a yacht, madam. If you have to ask, then you obviously can't afford it. Sorry...

In retrospect, the true believers and counter-culture were clearly sold out a long time ago -- about 20-25 years ago. Passive, Love peaceniks and small-time hippie entrepreneurs ripped off by hardcore greedy individuals and big corporations. just the same old, same old... human history. Darwin's survival of the shittiest -- like cockroaches.

r.e. Today's megacorporate spiritualist New Age culture. I don't really buy into it... I frankly anticipated and expected it [human nature being what it is on this dark planet], but I was never x-rated enough to see that, the whole time, we 'premies' were being sold down the river by our own piggy guru, too.
Well, Up against the wall, muthaf---a!!

Ok, there goes my venting for the month of March. Back to the groovier stuff...

What do you get when you play New Age music backwards?
New Age music.

What happens when you play Country music backwards?
You get your spouse, job, and dog back.

What happens when you gag Rich Neal and smash his microphone?
You stop being tone-deaf, and your nausea immediately goes away.

What happens when someone trips over the electrical cord and pulls out the plug during a miragey video?

Everyone wakes up!

Time to go: I'm feeling hungry for some Buddha's Delight. But I don't think I can find sucha joint here on the sunny side of the Himalayas. Way way too much basmati rice...

Hey, Yogi, you score any picnic baskets today? Excellent, Dude!!

Peace and lentils,

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Date: Sun, Mar 25, 2001 at 06:44:44 (GMT)
From: Joy
Email: None
To: suchabanana
Subject: Breath Counting etc.
Message:
I'm not really interested in Dzogchen or Buddhist meditations anymore, nor enlightenment via breathing etc. Just want to see if I can lower my BP without taking any toxic pills with icky side effects. Weil claims it works a treat, I'm willing to give it a try. That's all. That's not to say the Buddhist meditative traditions don't have validity, I'm just not all that interested in them as enlightenment vehicles any more.

And as for all the rest of that . . . geez, what are you on tonight, such?

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Date: Sun, Mar 25, 2001 at 09:22:09 (GMT)
From: Pat Conlon
Email: None
To: Joy
Subject: Joy I resisted taking drugs for BP
Message:
But caved in when they would not do surgery UNLESS i took them. Atenolol 25mg once a day. Took a while to get used to remembering to po a pill. And it worked fine with few side effects. And I am very cynical about pharmaceuticals having worked in it for 30 years. It's no big deal. The body is quite resilient.
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Date: Sun, Mar 25, 2001 at 16:18:49 (GMT)
From: Katie H
Email: None
To: Pat Conlon
Subject: blood pressure (ot)
Message:
Pat and Joy -
I completely understand not wanting to take drugs for BP (or anything that you have to take every day). However, my brother-in-law recently had a massive stroke and died at age 46 - this was a combination of high blood pressure (treatable) and two aneurisms in his brain (bad genetic luck). If he had NOT had the aneurisms, he probably wouldn't be dead - but he might be severely disabled (which for some people - including my brother-in-law) would be worse.

Anyway, just a cautionary tale. I don't want to lose any more friends!

Love,
Katie

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Date: Sun, Mar 25, 2001 at 16:25:08 (GMT)
From: Joy
Email: None
To: Katie H
Subject: blood pressure (ot)
Message:
Hi Katie. Thanks for the kindly advice/warning. Yes, I could think of nothing worse than a stroke, either, which is why I'm motivated to try and change this naturally. Don't want to end up like Ram Dass!

So far, have managed to reduce it 20 points with the breath counting and a very powerful acupuncture treatment! So there's hope on the horizon.

Sorry to hear about your brother-in-law. I guess we're all getting of an age where death is a distinct possibility at any time. It makes you realize what's precious in your life (and it certainly ain't M!). Nice to hear from you, take care.

Love,
Joy

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Date: Sun, Mar 25, 2001 at 17:09:59 (GMT)
From: Katie H
Email: None
To: Joy
Subject: blood pressure (ot)
Message:
Hi Joy -
Glad to hear that you've been able to lower your blood pressure without drugs - that's great!

Yes, my brother-in-law's death really made me realize (all over again) that life is short. I've had other people in my family die suddenly, so I was aware of that possibility, but Bob and I were almost the same age, and I have known him since we were both much younger. His death seemed so premature that it's been hard to deal with.

Take care, Joy, & thanks,
Katie

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Date: Sun, Mar 25, 2001 at 08:48:34 (GMT)
From: such
Email: None
To: Joy
Subject: the breath stuff IS good for lowering BP etc.
Message:
Joy,

just imbibed 3 Nepalese 'milkshakes'. haha [just kidding, of course...]

In India, they even have McDonald's, but the burgers are vegeburgers -- like tofu, rice and grains, or something. Tastes like those really bad Morningstar frozen vegeburgers at Safeway.

r.e. the breath stuff -- yeah, my doctor recommended I keep doing the breath meditation for my blood pressure, heart, lungs, arteries, and other health reasons, too.

guess I surprised you with the other trains tonight; it just got to me how badly many of us had our youth, good intentions, and progressive projects/visions just totally ripped off and coopted by greedy mega-corporations and slimebags -- and many of us here by m. Now, all these movements and innovations that down-to-earth people worked on and created cumulatively are multi-billion dollar industries serving other greedy people who don't even share the same values or altruistic motivation, for the most part.

It's like the best and most decent right-on stuff that grass-roots folks generated in the late '60s and early '70s was taken over by the monolithic international power structure. My friends with small natural foods stores have been put out of business by the chains selling big-brand versions of the same stuff. ditto for my old friends with little tie-dye and batik stores. Or, these companies that ravage the environment now put the ecology spin on their bs media spots --e.g. 'Weyerhauser, the tree-growing company'. [yeah, clearcut the big trees and plant seedlings] You should see all the huge clearcuts from the air when you fly over the Western US and Canada. They just leave strips of trees along the highways, to keep things out of view of motorists driving through so that people won't be aware of what's really happening. Now, the Japanese are doing the same thing in Siberia. Meanwhile, we're being told how groovy everything is by the govts., corps., and the right-wing capitalist media. Lies, lies, lies. They're ravaging the world for the sake of blind GREED.

Also, look how twisted and perverse and ugly the media has gotten in the last 10 years -- sick! The media is inculcating kids and people wherever there is television with some sick stuff -- no wonder most industrial cultures are having so many social problems - and breakdowns in families, juvenile delinquency, violence in schools, uglier and uglier noise for music, tarty suggestive clothing worn by young girls at school, Jagpedos empowered on the internet, etc. Guess what the hot show is on the tube in China? World Wrestling Federation. Life is imitating the worst excesses of television.

Similarly, Big Brother m. on the tube - impersonal infomercials for Kn. To think some of us devoted more than half our lives - for what?!! sorry to vent. but I feel very disheartened tonight, and as I watch these patterns being copied in the so-called Third World, as fed by the more industrialized nations. Communities and family structures and the environment are being destroyed, wherever I've traveled.

Also, I saw some photos of a bunch of the chairs specially designed for m. Wish I could have scanned them. It would be funny if anyone with pictures of some of the more customized festival thrones posted 'em. That's a whole other subject that totally relates to the megalomania. There was a thread earlier today about some stuff m. said 5 months -- the tightrope stuff, and then about armchair travelers. His logic is patently illogical and distorted, plus downright scary in the concepts he is feeding into people's heads on those videos, with some of the frightful stuff he says.

The concept-maker was not the mind, but miragey himself.

anyway, that's what I have been feeling this evening... just sad for a whole generation of well-meaning, trusting souls - and those who will live in this world in the near future. Poison rivers, poisoned air, poisonous and sick media, illegitimate regimes in power [even in the USA (e.g. dubya)], poisoned animals in England and Europe, and poisonous so-called spiritual leaders.

so, I'm just going to focus on my own projects. too old to try and save the world -- it's useless, beyond just trying to be as good as possible in one's own life and in contacts with others.

G'night.

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Date: Sun, Mar 25, 2001 at 16:32:42 (GMT)
From: Joy
Email: None
To: such
Subject: Good Social Commentary
Message:
I appreciated your social commentary and pretty much agree with all of it. As a resident of the Pacific Northwest, I am continually shocked every time I fly in from the Easterly direction, at the extent of the clearcutting. It really is appalling.

And the destruction of the animals in Britain and elsewhere at the moment is incredibly distressing (along with the destruction of the statues in Afghanistan). It's like the planet's gone mad all of a sudden.

So, rave on Suchabanana!

And if you've got any info re the chairs, do post it. I remember that disgusting one he had made for Hans Jayanti 78, with air conditioning installed in it and everything, while we all had to bake in the hot Florida sun, sitting jammed together on the ground. He's such a megalomaniac with all these custom projects he concocts for his slaves to build.

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Date: Sun, Mar 25, 2001 at 03:27:51 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Joy
Subject: Sorry, Joy, but I'm not with you there
Message:
I can confirm that Maharaji never did actually come out and say that he was God, so EV does not lie when they say that.

What about shit like this:

Who is Guru? The highest manifestation of God is Guru. So when Guru is here, God is here, to whom will you give your devotion? Guru Maharaj Ji knows all. Guru Maharaji is Brahma (creator). Guru Maharaji is Vishnu (Operator). Guru Maharjai is Shiva (Destroyer of illusion and ego). And above all, Guru Mahraji is the Supremest Lord in person before us. I have come so powerful. I have come for the world. Whenever the great come,the worldly oppose them. Again I have come and you are not listening. Every ear should hear that the saviour of humanity has come. There should be no chance for anyone to say that they haven't heard of Guru Maharaj Ji. Those who have come to me are already saved. Now its your duty to save others. Shout it on the streets. Why be shy? When human beings forget the religion of humanity, the Supreme Lord incarnates. He takes a body and comes on this earth ......

It couldn't be clearer.

I mean, he played it both ways, upside down, inside out and backwards. And yes, he habitually did this coy thing with the third person and all that. But quotes like the above are ground zero bullseyes.

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Date: Sun, Mar 25, 2001 at 08:58:34 (GMT)
From: Lester
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Sorry, Joy, but I'm not with you there
Message:
3 August 1972, Denver

Question: What does it feel like to be Lord of the Universe?

Maharaji: No feeling, no feeling at all. One with the highest frequency. Yes?

Question: Lord, I would like your grace.

Maharaji: OK. Yes?

It all sounded pretty clear to me who I was involved with at the time (and for the next 27 years, unfortunately....).

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Date: Sun, Mar 25, 2001 at 09:24:51 (GMT)
From: Pat Conlon
Email: None
To: Lester
Subject: Thanks Lester, as a newbie
Message:
who was conned for 28 years I can tell you I am only now beginning to see the light - the real light. It's called reality and straightforward honesty and truth without all the Hindu hyperbole and voodoo.
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Date: Sun, Mar 25, 2001 at 06:38:27 (GMT)
From: Joy
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: He's Still Claiming to be GREATER
Message:
than God in this quote: 'When Guru is here, when God is here -- to whom will you give your devotion?' I'm just amazed at his ego, that he can actually come out with this stuff. But even more amazed, as Dermot says below, that we were chumps enough to fall for it.

But yeah, I seem to recall this, sometime around 1970, 71, 72? That's an incredible quote -- where is it from, do you know?

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Date: Sun, Mar 25, 2001 at 05:36:07 (GMT)
From: sean
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: I remember that one
Message:
That was a biggie.
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Date: Sun, Mar 25, 2001 at 00:57:18 (GMT)
From: Mercedes
Email: None
To: Joy
Subject: Guru = GREATER THAN GOD?
Message:
Thanks Joy, I feel that he said it in many ways and implied it and to this day he says 'remember me' because at the time of death you will go towards that you remember the most so remember me. That is saying I am God.
As for me I have prayed to him as if he were God and to this day I catch myself almost unconsciouly attempting to pray to this person and I have to stop and correct myself. Talk about being programmed. Damn I am so angry I need to have my HP and I remind myself that my HP has no form it is the Great Spirit not a rotten person such as he is.
Mercedes
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Date: Sun, Mar 25, 2001 at 02:13:11 (GMT)
From: Richard
Email: None
To: Mercedes
Subject: Joy, I've got most Divine Light, AIID, DT, EV
Message:
So if you feel the urge to transcribe, you're welcome to them. There are so many accounts of this not subtley implied God thing as Donner says. How about the darshan tunnel in Miami Beach when he started screaming at people because they mishandled someone. Something like 'these are MY creatures'. More Hindu confusion perpetrated by the Indians? I don't think so.

Also, Mercedes, what is an 'HP'?

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Date: Sun, Mar 25, 2001 at 02:49:22 (GMT)
From: Joy
Email: None
To: Richard
Subject: Hang Onto Those, Richard
Message:
Those will get more valuable as time goes by. (I've already transcribed those speeches, and there they are! I don't think I could spend another minute of my life with that man's voice in my ears, I would gag to death. I certainly loved it back then, though, it was a very intimate service, or so it felt.)

Yeah, the whole praying thing is just bizarre. He was saying that back then as well, a lot more directly. I'm sure you can find many quotations from those publications. So no, Maharaji doesn't exactly come out and say directly 'I am God' but he just hints around it in so many different ways and demands that his followers treat him as if he were, as Donner says. And this praying thing is a major hook into that belief system. The thing which prompted me to write this post was looking at that photo from the EV website, linked down below, of current PWK's. They were so *obviously* enjoying what Patrick calls darshan-juju, and had such worshipful adoration in their faces, it freaked me out. I just can't believe he can still get away with this and that people still believe it, it's shocking.

P.S. I believe the HP Mercedes refers to would be a Higher Power? Something I believe exists for everyone, in whatever form they wish to perceive it. It's just for me, it no longer is the drunken, fornicating, greedy kid called Maharaji, so it's really hard to stretch the imagination to people still doing that with him.

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Date: Sun, Mar 25, 2001 at 03:05:53 (GMT)
From: Katie Darling
Email: None
To: Joy
Subject: HP = a nasty sauce from England! nt
Message:
trta
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Date: Sun, Mar 25, 2001 at 06:56:34 (GMT)
From: Brian Smith
Email: None
To: Katie Darling
Subject: Similiar to Daddy's Sause, another english
Message:
sticky wicket of a condiment
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Date: Sun, Mar 25, 2001 at 00:43:26 (GMT)
From: donner
Email: None
To: Joy
Subject: Guru = GREATER THAN GOD?
Message:
god or greater then god...for sure he has spoken so many times about praying to him...begging for his help, with meditation, with staying out of our minds, etc. he has claimed and at least subtly still does that we should/should have prayed to him.

who do we normally, if we do at all, pray to? god or a saint at least. and how does this person that we pray to hear our prayer and help us in response of our prayers? he, m in this case, must have extraordinary powers at least...to keep track of so many people sitting all over the planet at different times day and nite praying to him...him listening and taking care of business.

if these are not the same attributes of what is normal assigned to god then tell me what that is all about?

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Date: Sun, Mar 25, 2001 at 02:32:41 (GMT)
From: suchabanana
Email: None
To: donner
Subject: bingo! (nt
Message:
nt
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Date: Mon, Mar 26, 2001 at 01:04:06 (GMT)
From: G
Email: None
To: suchabanana
Subject: one time he admitted ...
Message:
One time in the 80's he admitted that he didn't hear premies' prayers. Duh! Why would he even make such an admission? Because for years he pretended that he did hear them. People don't normally say things like that.

But those few brief admissions didn't last, he's been back to the some old bullshit for years now.

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Date: Mon, Mar 26, 2001 at 04:29:05 (GMT)
From: such
Email: None
To: G
Subject: capricious to suit his fancy:da Karma Chameleon(nt
Message:
nt
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Date: Sat, Mar 24, 2001 at 21:55:30 (GMT)
From: Dermot
Email: None
To: Joy
Subject: Joy...he also said
Message:
on more than one occasion (unfortunately I don't have anything verbatim on hand right now) that the supreme power .....'that power' came down and manifested into the human form of Guru Maharaj Ji....so while it's true, most times he used the guru is greater than god angle he also prety much said he was god. If we take 'that power' to mean 'god' then ...what else can we assume other than this boy guru is saying he is god manifest?

Hahaha I sometimes wonder who's the biggest chump.....him for claiming it or me for believing it!!

Best Wishes

Dermot

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Date: Sat, Mar 24, 2001 at 21:45:16 (GMT)
From: Pat Conlon
Email: pdconlon@yahoo.com
To: Joy
Subject: Guru = GREATEST LIAR ON EARTH
Message:
Chuck and I were just talking about the revisionsism and the lies on EV and the fact that all the premies that we know think it's okay to lie. Rev Rawat is a psychopathic liar and I am beginning to think that most premies are too.
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Date: Sun, Mar 25, 2001 at 03:08:07 (GMT)
From: Katie Darling
Email: None
To: Pat Conlon
Subject: 'Focus upon the form of Guru Miragey...
Message:
Always remember His every word is holy!'

Sounds like god-in-a-bod to me!

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Date: Sun, Mar 25, 2001 at 03:18:58 (GMT)
From: Dermot
Email: None
To: Katie Darling
Subject: 'Focus upon the form of Guru Miragey...
Message:
hahha yup god-in-a-bod

yeah actually I Completely forgot about that song.....it was one of my favourite ...nice lilting haunting tune....ALWAYS REMEBER THE SUPREME POWER IN PERSON la la la la la la la la la la la la la la

hahahhaa

ah how trusting and innocent we were !!

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Date: Sat, Mar 24, 2001 at 20:33:21 (GMT)
From: scottc.
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: assumptions
Message:
Some words to chew on from;'The Four Agreements' d.m. ruiz:
' If others tell us something, we make assumptions, and if they don't tell us something we make assumptions to fulfill our need to know and to replace the need to communicate. Even if we hear something and we don't understand, we make assumptions about what it means and then believe the assumptions. We make all sorts of assumptions because we don't have the courage to ask questions. These assuptions are made so fast and unconsciosly most of the time because we have agreements to communicate that way.'

I know sometimes the momentum to translate the context of what's being said by someone gets moving very fast,especially when that someome has been identified as the enemy.Be cautious not to bury the point of your conveyance in hyperbolic froth,as it makes it very easy to dismiss.

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Date: Sat, Mar 24, 2001 at 23:09:34 (GMT)
From: Ms. P
Email: None
To: scottc.
Subject: assumptions
Message:
Funny thing... I spent a few hours w/'Angel' Ruiz. Gotta say he & his followers remind me of another 'cult.' I DID ask him questions. And when I asked him what he did during a 'ritual' and he responded that he so-called 'blew them into another consciousness...' I replied, oh really?! I don't think so. I didn't assume he was telling me the truth.

Talk is cheap? These guys are everywhere, I swear!

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Date: Sun, Mar 25, 2001 at 00:29:21 (GMT)
From: scottc.
Email: None
To: Ms. P
Subject: assumptions
Message:
oh well, big hat no cattle. It looked good in print. So much for a face to face carry over.
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Date: Sat, Mar 24, 2001 at 22:54:52 (GMT)
From: Lesley
Email: None
To: scottc.
Subject: are you referring to the evil hindu santaism?
Message:
Are you saying try and speak clearly without running off at your emotional mouth, in case the very real point you are making gets lost?

On the assumption that I am correct, I agree and good point, but also it gave me, and I would assume others, such a good chuckle it was worth it!

Best regards, Lesley

ps did you see my response to you in Katie H's thread? it went inactive on the instant.

pps Liked my typo so much I didn't correct it!

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Date: Sat, Mar 24, 2001 at 23:02:53 (GMT)
From: scottc.
Email: None
To: Lesley
Subject: are you referring to the evil hindu santaism?
Message:
Lesley: What part gave you a chuckle? Are you being dismissive or cryptic? or neither,please expound. I don't recall your post , but that does'nt mean I didn't read it.
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Date: Sat, Mar 24, 2001 at 23:27:16 (GMT)
From: Lesley
Email: None
To: scottc.
Subject: are you referring to the evil hindu santaism?
Message:
What part gave me a chuckle?
Pat in full flight: evil hindu SATANISM? when I realised where he had taken me, it made me laugh, here's another one, evil hindu sadism lol! not to mention evil hindu santaism from my typo!

The post I made was in answer to your question to me about what constitutes an appropriate place to express your anger, I suggested the cause of the anger was the appropriate place.

Carrying on that theme, about dealing with the hard feelings that are surfacing in people as they realise that they have modelled their attitudes to life on those of a person who is perpetrating a very big porky, I would like to say that I read your post to Hal and got the feeling that you were talking about ev experiences, it sure resonated with me! Best Regards, Lesley

PS I try to be straight in how I talk in print, if I want to be sarcastic, I will say that is what I am doing. If it comes over a bit cryptic, that is me trying to say too much in too few words.

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Date: Sat, Mar 24, 2001 at 21:54:09 (GMT)
From: Hal
Email: None
To: scottc.
Subject: Assume- makes an ass out of u and me
Message:
Very noble but we're just normal human beings not saints. I do make assumptions but seldom act on them immediately. If 5 guys walk down the road towards me carrying baseball bats whilst staring at me and whispering to each other , I sure do make an assumption. Sometimes my assumptions are justified sometimes I miss the mark and they're way out of line. However that's human nature.

Maharaji * assumes* that he can talk his way out of any controversies with the premies and he seems to fool plenty of them every time he speaks.

I think it's natural to make assumptions. Don't you do it too ?

Hal

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Date: Sat, Mar 24, 2001 at 22:58:14 (GMT)
From: scottc.
Email: None
To: Hal
Subject: Assume- makes an ass out of u and me
Message:
hal: yes, everday, dozens of them. Some of my assumptions are not damaging, others are. My purpose for quoting the assumptions piece was to prompt a reflection re: the cycle of blurring the spoken with the implied re: M.s words. It's all too easy to join the residents of a lynch mob who purport intelligence and then flush it down the status quo toilet in the name of unity of thought.
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Date: Sun, Mar 25, 2001 at 20:52:09 (GMT)
From: Katie H.
Email: None
To: scottc.
Subject: Assume- makes an ass out of u and me
Message:
Hi Scott -
I believe that M's words are DELIBERATELY ambiguous, and thus that people (premies or non-premies) cannot help but make assumptions when hearing or reading them. How else are they suppoed to understand what he is saying (and I think he can speak English well enough by now to more clearly convey what he would like to say - IF he wants to.) And I further believe that anyone who speaks ambiguously can then say that they 'didn't intend' to say/imply/suggest whatever they did say/imply/suggest.

BTW, I know there is a feeding frenzy here sometimes when someone reports something new that M has just said, but I think that is because it reopens some old wounds. I personally didn't like his 'peace-war' words at the Portland program because I am SICK of vaguely apocalyptic prophetic-seeming statments - and I found the words about the tightrope to be a thinly disguised threat. I guess the apocalyptic stuff is meant to be threatening as well, so it all adds up to the same thing for me: Maharaji scaring people into following him.

I wrote a relatively long response to the post you wrote when you had to catch a train - I will repost it when it comes up in the archives.

Take care,
Katie

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Date: Sun, Mar 25, 2001 at 20:42:31 (GMT)
From: Joe
Email: None
To: scottc.
Subject: And do you also
Message:
My purpose for quoting the assumptions piece was to prompt a reflection re: the cycle of blurring the spoken with the implied re: M.s words. It's all too easy to join the residents of a lynch mob who purport intelligence and then flush it down the status quo toilet in the name of unity of thought.

Is your purpose also to dissuade the opposite? Is it also to note that there is a tendency in a cult to give the cult-leader endless dispensations when he contradicts himself, lies, covers-over, avoids responsbility, answers to no one, and makesf downright destructive comments and denies he ever made thim, as well as to always, always give him the benefit of every conceivable doubt?

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Date: Sun, Mar 25, 2001 at 22:33:10 (GMT)
From: scottc.
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: And do you also
Message:
Joe: Yes Joe, you're right, more than a tendency, more like an epidemic of collusion that spreads faster and more invasively than it can be monitored. Assumptions become conclusions if left unchecked, regardless of who initiates them. The degree of expectation aroused is I think in direct proportion to the disappointment/betrayal felt if the assumed benefit of that expectation is unfulfilled. there's a mouthful.Yes, I have been perp and victim of the bullshit machine that exists. Will it ever be remedied? I don't know if it's possible, given the weight of history and the impact of its own vicious cycle.
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Date: Sun, Mar 25, 2001 at 01:58:07 (GMT)
From: Katie Darling
Email: None
To: scottc.
Subject: Hyperbolic froth
Message:
Can I borrow this phrase? I'm not being sarcastic - I thought it was great!

love Katie Darling-not-in-a-lynch-mob

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Date: Sun, Mar 25, 2001 at 18:21:38 (GMT)
From: scottc.
Email: None
To: Katie Darling
Subject: Hyperbolic froth
Message:
..sure dear, no patent pending or copy right on the inside of my head. s.
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