Forum V: Archive
Compiled: Thurs, Mar 29, 2001 at 19:54:59 (GMT)
From: Mar 22, 2001 To: Mar 28, 2001 Page: 2 Of: 5


Katie Darling -:- My point, and I did have one... -:- Mon, Mar 26, 2001 at 17:12:14 (GMT)
__ Richard -:- Your post keep kicking up ideas - here's 2 -:- Mon, Mar 26, 2001 at 17:56:40 (GMT)
__ __ cq -:- 'the god america deserves' ... -:- Mon, Mar 26, 2001 at 20:24:18 (GMT)
__ Jim -:- My point, and I did have one... -:- Mon, Mar 26, 2001 at 17:27:56 (GMT)
__ __ Dermot -:- if you dont mind me saying... -:- Mon, Mar 26, 2001 at 20:24:34 (GMT)
__ __ __ Mercedes -:- if you dont mind me saying... -:- Tues, Mar 27, 2001 at 05:27:28 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Dermot -:- Hi Mercedes -:- Tues, Mar 27, 2001 at 22:49:26 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Mercedes -:- Hi Dermot -:- Wed, Mar 28, 2001 at 01:35:33 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Jim -:- I've a question for you, Mercedes -:- Tues, Mar 27, 2001 at 06:24:14 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Mercedes -:- Here is my answer Jim -:- Tues, Mar 27, 2001 at 17:04:28 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Jim -:- Mind if I continue? -:- Tues, Mar 27, 2001 at 17:26:39 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Mercedes -:- laughing!!!! -:- Tues, Mar 27, 2001 at 17:55:00 (GMT)
__ __ __ Hal -:- I know exactly what you mean Dermot... -:- Mon, Mar 26, 2001 at 21:40:07 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Dermot -:- yep hal 1st gen. english/total Irish family ! nt -:- Mon, Mar 26, 2001 at 21:58:24 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Hal -:- Me too ! Dermot OT -:- Tues, Mar 27, 2001 at 06:25:23 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Pat Conlon -:- Us Irishmen prefer a pint to therapy NT -:- Mon, Mar 26, 2001 at 21:43:21 (GMT)
__ __ __ Pat Conlon -:- Yes, Dermot - therapy is the Yank religion -:- Mon, Mar 26, 2001 at 21:39:13 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ JHB -:- I was about to say the same -:- Mon, Mar 26, 2001 at 21:47:31 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Dermot -:- hahah thats what I meant john !! nt -:- Mon, Mar 26, 2001 at 21:56:23 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Pat Conlon -:- You must be an Irish Latvian NT -:- Mon, Mar 26, 2001 at 21:54:33 (GMT)
__ __ Katie Darling -:- My point, and I did have one... -:- Mon, Mar 26, 2001 at 17:44:34 (GMT)
__ __ __ Jim -:- Boy, did you ever prove my point in spades! -:- Tues, Mar 27, 2001 at 00:05:51 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ moldy warp -:- Jim there's something about you that I gives me -:- Tues, Mar 27, 2001 at 01:03:44 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Jim -:- Something that I gives me the same urge, I guess -:- Tues, Mar 27, 2001 at 01:15:31 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Dermot -:- Jim ....how did you do that? OT -:- Tues, Mar 27, 2001 at 01:35:49 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Jim -:- Just check 'Quote this message in Reply' (nt) -:- Tues, Mar 27, 2001 at 01:45:32 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Dermot -:- Duhhh ....of course (nt) -:- Tues, Mar 27, 2001 at 01:53:58 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Jim -:- Why is it all MY supporters are kind of dumb? -:- Tues, Mar 27, 2001 at 01:55:39 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ JHB -:- Hey, I'm bright! -:- Tues, Mar 27, 2001 at 21:56:38 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Jim -:- What's the emoticon for blushing? -:- Wed, Mar 28, 2001 at 00:00:02 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ suchabuono -:- Well,like attracts like; 'Blow' me, pea-brain! LOL -:- Tues, Mar 27, 2001 at 18:29:07 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Jim -:- Well,like attracts like; 'Blow' me, pea-brain! LOL -:- Wed, Mar 28, 2001 at 00:03:20 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Brianless Smith -:- Was that you I supported that one time? I think so -:- Tues, Mar 27, 2001 at 07:50:32 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Jim -:- Uh oh! I can't post here if I can't joke safely -:- Tues, Mar 27, 2001 at 08:03:26 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Brainless Smith -:- Delete this Joke Thread / abusive and detrimental -:- Tues, Mar 27, 2001 at 20:59:24 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ sean -:- Uh oh! I can't post here if I can't joke safely -:- Tues, Mar 27, 2001 at 12:49:26 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Dermot -:- You surely dont mean me? -:) (nt) -:- Tues, Mar 27, 2001 at 02:10:12 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Pat the Fat Fag -:- We might be dumb but we've got chutzpah -:- Tues, Mar 27, 2001 at 02:07:35 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Sean the dumb Mick -:- We might be dumb but we've got chutzpah -:- Tues, Mar 27, 2001 at 03:56:58 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Marianne -:- Fag hag and weakness for Irish lads -:- Tues, Mar 27, 2001 at 14:16:37 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ sean the mushy -:- Voices in your fillings -:- Wed, Mar 28, 2001 at 03:39:24 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Seamus O' Malley -:- Oye broch 'n geshreegen--- Fock oim pissed nt ot -:- Tues, Mar 27, 2001 at 15:03:55 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Marianne -:- You all proved my point! -:- Wed, Mar 28, 2001 at 08:50:55 (GMT)
__ __ __ moldy warp -:- To Katie I'm English and I rather like American -:- Mon, Mar 26, 2001 at 22:40:45 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Pat Conlon -:- Moldy, boy/girl divergence - the thought occurred -:- Mon, Mar 26, 2001 at 22:50:39 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Gary Epton -:- Moldy, boy/girl divergence - the thought occurred -:- Tues, Mar 27, 2001 at 06:48:19 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Katie H. -:- great analogy (snicker) -:- Tues, Mar 27, 2001 at 13:38:06 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ moldy warp -:- Pat a touch of the men from Mars and women from -:- Mon, Mar 26, 2001 at 23:00:42 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Pat the Fat Fag -:- Yes, Moldy, gender differences are not my bag -:- Mon, Mar 26, 2001 at 23:59:49 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ moldy w -:- Pat the FF Agree agree and agree -:- Tues, Mar 27, 2001 at 00:20:15 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Pat the Fat Fag -:- Moldy: You gotta have heart......or is that balls? -:- Tues, Mar 27, 2001 at 02:15:13 (GMT)

em -:- MAHARAJI SUPPORTERS IN GREECE... -:- Mon, Mar 26, 2001 at 15:30:21 (GMT)
__ Jim -:- Took a wrong turn, white boy? (nt) -:- Tues, Mar 27, 2001 at 06:53:26 (GMT)
__ Richard -:- Try these websites -:- Mon, Mar 26, 2001 at 16:20:49 (GMT)
__ JHB -:- Contact Elan Vital -:- Mon, Mar 26, 2001 at 16:18:18 (GMT)
__ Mercedes -:- Not on this website (nt) -:- Mon, Mar 26, 2001 at 16:11:14 (GMT)
__ Steve Quint -:- They're All Greecy (nt) -:- Mon, Mar 26, 2001 at 15:56:57 (GMT)

La-ex -:- Why did we get involved in the first place?(poll) -:- Mon, Mar 26, 2001 at 14:59:55 (GMT)
__ Gary Epton -:- Why did we get involved in the first place?(poll) -:- Wed, Mar 28, 2001 at 06:03:16 (GMT)
__ Katie H -:- Why did we get involved in the first place?(poll) -:- Tues, Mar 27, 2001 at 13:46:25 (GMT)
__ __ Katie H. -:- BTW, I do have more reasons - uh oh -:- Tues, Mar 27, 2001 at 14:52:05 (GMT)
__ Bryn -:- Why did we get involved in the first place?(poll) -:- Tues, Mar 27, 2001 at 11:46:19 (GMT)
__ __ Pat Conlon -:- Bryn, thanks for saying this -:- Tues, Mar 27, 2001 at 19:18:47 (GMT)
__ Marianne -:- Why did we get involved in the first place?(poll) -:- Tues, Mar 27, 2001 at 10:24:35 (GMT)
__ Brian Smith -:- Why did we get involved in the first place?(poll) -:- Tues, Mar 27, 2001 at 00:10:02 (GMT)
__ Chuck Sprague -:- Why did we get involved in the first place?(poll) -:- Mon, Mar 26, 2001 at 22:10:33 (GMT)
__ __ Dermot -:- Chuck..what happened at Atlanta?? nt -:- Mon, Mar 26, 2001 at 22:37:16 (GMT)
__ __ __ Pat Conlon -:- Atlanta ''Propaganda Seminar'' re-post, Dermot -:- Mon, Mar 26, 2001 at 22:57:34 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Katie H. -:- Another ***BEST OF FORUM*** for J-M -:- Tues, Mar 27, 2001 at 14:24:15 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ donner -:- Atlanta ''Propaganda Seminar'' re-post, Dermot -:- Tues, Mar 27, 2001 at 01:23:03 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Pat Conlon -:- Donner, did you say ''amazing guts'' or -:- Tues, Mar 27, 2001 at 02:19:52 (GMT)
__ Pat Conlon -:- Why did we get involved in the first place?(poll) -:- Mon, Mar 26, 2001 at 21:09:22 (GMT)
__ Selene -:- Why did we get involved in the first place?(poll) -:- Mon, Mar 26, 2001 at 20:25:20 (GMT)
__ __ Selene -:- oh and lest I forget, on leaving - THE VIDEOS! -:- Mon, Mar 26, 2001 at 20:38:59 (GMT)
__ __ __ Pat Conlon -:- oh yes THE HALITOSIS AD VIDEOS! -:- Mon, Mar 26, 2001 at 21:13:27 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Selene -:- hahahaha oh god that's funny -:- Mon, Mar 26, 2001 at 21:23:01 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Pat Conlon -:- He defuses errors by making pre-emptive jokes NT -:- Mon, Mar 26, 2001 at 21:41:32 (GMT)
__ AJW -:- I got involved because... -:- Mon, Mar 26, 2001 at 19:51:42 (GMT)
__ Dermot -:- Here ya go mate ...123 -:- Mon, Mar 26, 2001 at 19:47:37 (GMT)
__ __ Pat Conlon -:- Twins separated at birth, Dermot -:- Mon, Mar 26, 2001 at 21:16:56 (GMT)
__ __ __ Dermot -:- Pat....another thing bout that trinket stall -:- Mon, Mar 26, 2001 at 21:44:16 (GMT)
__ Jim -:- Not so easy, LAX -:- Mon, Mar 26, 2001 at 17:15:22 (GMT)
__ __ Mercedes -:- Jim you have a real problem... -:- Wed, Mar 28, 2001 at 03:10:12 (GMT)
__ __ __ Jim -:- Well that's nice! Why do you say that? -:- Wed, Mar 28, 2001 at 16:42:41 (GMT)
__ __ la-ex -:- Not so easy, LAX/the second one, Jim. -:- Mon, Mar 26, 2001 at 23:54:15 (GMT)
__ __ AJW -:- Not so easy, LAX -:- Mon, Mar 26, 2001 at 19:55:28 (GMT)
__ __ __ donner -:- Not so easy, LAX -:- Tues, Mar 27, 2001 at 01:37:22 (GMT)
__ __ __ Lesley -:- okey dokey, LAX -:- Mon, Mar 26, 2001 at 21:32:16 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Selene -:- the revisionism -:- Mon, Mar 26, 2001 at 21:36:41 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Dermot -:- Selene it's 1-3 not 1-100 -:)) (nt) -:- Mon, Mar 26, 2001 at 21:48:22 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Selene -:- ok!! I must stop I know -:- Mon, Mar 26, 2001 at 21:55:15 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Dermot -:- ok!! I must stop I know -:- Mon, Mar 26, 2001 at 22:07:53 (GMT)
__ Richard -:- Great questions La-ex. Here are my reasons. -:- Mon, Mar 26, 2001 at 16:59:45 (GMT)
__ __ michael donner -:- Great questions La-ex. Here are my reasons. -:- Tues, Mar 27, 2001 at 01:04:14 (GMT)
__ __ __ Selene -:- once a catholic always a recovering ex catholic -:- Tues, Mar 27, 2001 at 02:36:56 (GMT)
__ __ __ Dermot -:- Great questions La-ex. Here are my reasons. -:- Tues, Mar 27, 2001 at 02:03:12 (GMT)
__ __ __ Jim -:- A close catholic / maharaji cult parallel -:- Tues, Mar 27, 2001 at 01:33:11 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Pat the Fat Fag -:- That also prevented fooling around -:- Tues, Mar 27, 2001 at 03:57:08 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Mercedes -:- Why from alpha to omega -:- Wed, Mar 28, 2001 at 03:25:57 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Pat Conlon -:- I'm glad I didn't throw away that Atlanta video -:- Wed, Mar 28, 2001 at 04:01:37 (GMT)

Salam -:- So Russel won an Oscar....ot -:- Mon, Mar 26, 2001 at 14:34:53 (GMT)
__ Joe -:- So Russel won an Oscar....ot -:- Mon, Mar 26, 2001 at 17:09:22 (GMT)
__ __ A newcomer -:- So Russel won an Oscar....ot -:- Tues, Mar 27, 2001 at 06:56:20 (GMT)
__ __ TD -:- I thought Bob Dylan looked like Vincent Price.... -:- Tues, Mar 27, 2001 at 04:30:17 (GMT)
__ __ Richard -:- Joe it was Hansi's birthday party -:- Mon, Mar 26, 2001 at 20:08:20 (GMT)
__ __ Joe -:- The Razzies -:- Mon, Mar 26, 2001 at 17:17:10 (GMT)
__ __ __ salam -:- hey joe -:- Mon, Mar 26, 2001 at 22:15:53 (GMT)
__ __ __ Jerry -:- Battlefield Earth -:- Mon, Mar 26, 2001 at 18:47:35 (GMT)
__ __ __ Selene -:- Blair Witch was a sequel? -:- Mon, Mar 26, 2001 at 17:25:18 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Joe -:- Blair Witch 'TOO' was a sequel... -:- Mon, Mar 26, 2001 at 17:54:28 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Monmot -:- Blair Witch 2: Book of Shadows -:- Mon, Mar 26, 2001 at 18:06:13 (GMT)

Richard -:- Maharaji, if you are reading, here's your speech. -:- Mon, Mar 26, 2001 at 03:51:33 (GMT)
__ Katie H. -:- For J-M ****BEST OF FORUM**** -:- Tues, Mar 27, 2001 at 14:04:29 (GMT)
__ Joe -:- Well done, Richard -:- Mon, Mar 26, 2001 at 19:16:32 (GMT)
__ Pat Conlon -:- Just as good second time around -:- Mon, Mar 26, 2001 at 04:22:41 (GMT)
__ __ la-ex -:- Richard, that letter is so damn good it should... -:- Mon, Mar 26, 2001 at 05:16:50 (GMT)
__ __ donner -:- Just as good second time around -:- Mon, Mar 26, 2001 at 04:42:28 (GMT)
__ __ __ janet -:- i say we all send it, to every devotee we know -:- Mon, Mar 26, 2001 at 05:36:43 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Katie Darling -:- Brilliant -:- Mon, Mar 26, 2001 at 17:32:46 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ moldy warp -:- Ditto Brilliant nt -:- Mon, Mar 26, 2001 at 23:22:42 (GMT)

Jean-Michel -:- Is it true that BaiJi' Sapuranands' sister? -:- Mon, Mar 26, 2001 at 02:51:22 (GMT)
__ Mercedes -:- Is it true that BaiJi' Sapuranands' sister? -:- Mon, Mar 26, 2001 at 04:07:23 (GMT)
__ __ donner -:- Is it true that BaiJi' Sapuranands' sister? -:- Mon, Mar 26, 2001 at 04:48:21 (GMT)
__ __ __ Jean-Michel -:- Trouble with Sampu's family -:- Mon, Mar 26, 2001 at 07:33:43 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Bin Liner -:- This is absolutely OUTRAGIOUS -:- Tues, Mar 27, 2001 at 01:01:05 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Kap -:- This is absolutely OUTRAGIOUS -:- Tues, Mar 27, 2001 at 13:32:31 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Pat Conlon -:- Ilegal money export by South African Indian premie -:- Mon, Mar 26, 2001 at 20:21:02 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ la-ex -:- WOW!!! JM,do Anth's journalists know about this? -:- Mon, Mar 26, 2001 at 15:51:39 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Jean-Michel -:- Soon enough if m/EV doesn't react appropriately -:- Mon, Mar 26, 2001 at 16:33:32 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Mercedes -:- criminal activity -:- Mon, Mar 26, 2001 at 15:28:31 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Jean-Michel -:- It IS !!!! and must stop -:- Mon, Mar 26, 2001 at 15:47:29 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Jean-Michel -:- Mr Rawat? Official representative? Glen Whittaker? -:- Mon, Mar 26, 2001 at 13:15:16 (GMT)

Gary Epton -:- Miragey -:- Mon, Mar 26, 2001 at 02:13:57 (GMT)
__ Brian Smith -:- Nice post Gary, and welcome aboard -:- Mon, Mar 26, 2001 at 07:25:48 (GMT)
__ __ Gary Epton -:- Nice post Gary, and welcome aboard -:- Mon, Mar 26, 2001 at 22:33:57 (GMT)
__ Richard -:- Welcome Gary! -:- Mon, Mar 26, 2001 at 03:22:40 (GMT)
__ Pat Conlon -:- Hi Gary and thanks to the oldtimer exes -:- Mon, Mar 26, 2001 at 02:53:21 (GMT)
__ __ Gary Epton -:- Hi Gary and thanks to the oldtimer exes -:- Mon, Mar 26, 2001 at 22:29:26 (GMT)
__ __ __ Pat Conlon -:- Are you sure Lard sells the ghee and not eat it NT -:- Mon, Mar 26, 2001 at 22:36:26 (GMT)
__ donner -:- Miragey -:- Mon, Mar 26, 2001 at 02:39:15 (GMT)
__ Jim -:- GARY! -:- Mon, Mar 26, 2001 at 02:17:10 (GMT)
__ __ Gary Epton -:- GARY! -:- Mon, Mar 26, 2001 at 22:22:39 (GMT)
__ __ janet -:- a handshake of welcome, and a chair in the study -:- Mon, Mar 26, 2001 at 05:46:17 (GMT)
__ __ __ Cynthia -:- Welcome to F5 -:- Mon, Mar 26, 2001 at 17:26:40 (GMT)

Patrick W -:- latest from me -:- Mon, Mar 26, 2001 at 01:46:49 (GMT)
__ JHB -:- I thought your post was too long.... -:- Mon, Mar 26, 2001 at 21:53:51 (GMT)
__ __ Jim -:- That's no way to make friends, John -:- Tues, Mar 27, 2001 at 00:34:04 (GMT)
__ Joe -:- Questions, Patrick -:- Mon, Mar 26, 2001 at 17:52:46 (GMT)
__ __ donner -:- Questions, Patrick -:- Tues, Mar 27, 2001 at 00:34:19 (GMT)
__ Abi -:- powerful stuff -:- Mon, Mar 26, 2001 at 13:11:02 (GMT)
__ Charlie -:- Well said!! Thanks (nt) -:- Mon, Mar 26, 2001 at 10:44:12 (GMT)
__ salam -:- firecrackers. -:- Mon, Mar 26, 2001 at 10:15:34 (GMT)
__ __ Pat Conlon -:- Go out not with a bang but a whimper NT -:- Tues, Mar 27, 2001 at 02:32:37 (GMT)
__ Brian Smith -:- I remember M saying that -:- Mon, Mar 26, 2001 at 09:13:12 (GMT)
__ __ such -:- thanks 4 sharing my rad idea;plan is proceeding(nt -:- Tues, Mar 27, 2001 at 01:31:58 (GMT)
__ __ Pat Conlon -:- Brian you are not radical but sensible -:- Mon, Mar 26, 2001 at 09:48:12 (GMT)
__ __ __ Brian Smith -:- Amen Mahatma Pat Ji, I mean that sincerely -:- Mon, Mar 26, 2001 at 21:42:13 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Pat Conlon -:- Gettin high with a little help from friends, Brian -:- Mon, Mar 26, 2001 at 21:48:49 (GMT)
__ Marianne -:- The Document Shredders -:- Mon, Mar 26, 2001 at 08:37:36 (GMT)
__ __ Brian Smith -:- No matter how much they shred,there is still a lot -:- Mon, Mar 26, 2001 at 09:33:21 (GMT)
__ Joe -:- A bit cryptic, patrick -:- Mon, Mar 26, 2001 at 05:28:11 (GMT)
__ __ Patrick W -:- A bit cryptic, patrick -:- Mon, Mar 26, 2001 at 17:50:11 (GMT)
__ __ __ donner -:- A bit cryptic, patrick -:- Tues, Mar 27, 2001 at 00:53:07 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Marianne -:- Ends justify the means: Jones and Rawat -:- Tues, Mar 27, 2001 at 10:57:44 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Susan -:- every chance you get? -:- Tues, Mar 27, 2001 at 17:06:01 (GMT)
__ __ __ Joe -:- A bit cryptic, patrick -:- Mon, Mar 26, 2001 at 18:47:18 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Pat Conlon -:- Ends justify means- reform or more revisionism -:- Tues, Mar 27, 2001 at 03:19:29 (GMT)
__ Richard -:- All I can say is ** Best Of Forum** post! -:- Mon, Mar 26, 2001 at 03:37:36 (GMT)
__ __ Jean-Michel -:- FA et al: Request reg ***Best of Forum***!! -:- Mon, Mar 26, 2001 at 07:37:32 (GMT)
__ Pat Conlon -:- Thanks, Patrick , for the info and your essay -:- Mon, Mar 26, 2001 at 03:33:23 (GMT)
__ donner -:- p.s. on raja ji -:- Mon, Mar 26, 2001 at 02:55:38 (GMT)
__ __ Brian Smith -:- Raji Ji is a parasite on a parasites ass -:- Mon, Mar 26, 2001 at 09:40:42 (GMT)
__ __ __ Pat Conlon -:- Raji Ji's ''Propagation Tour'' 1999 1st big drip -:- Mon, Mar 26, 2001 at 09:51:48 (GMT)
__ __ G -:- raja ji -:- Mon, Mar 26, 2001 at 06:07:52 (GMT)
__ __ __ Richard -:- raja ji = Daram Pal Singh Rawat (or Dharam) /nt -:- Mon, Mar 26, 2001 at 06:18:24 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ janet -:- 'Dharam Pal Singh Rawat' is correct -:- Mon, Mar 26, 2001 at 09:08:51 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ G -:- Where does he live? How much loot? -:- Mon, Mar 26, 2001 at 16:22:52 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Bazza -:- Where does he live? How much loot? -:- Tues, Mar 27, 2001 at 06:05:52 (GMT)
__ Selene -:- doing service all the time -:- Mon, Mar 26, 2001 at 02:47:30 (GMT)
__ donner -:- latest from me -:- Mon, Mar 26, 2001 at 02:34:34 (GMT)
__ __ bill-no way has he either -:- understood or accepted 'the past'..nt -:- Tues, Mar 27, 2001 at 14:42:28 (GMT)
__ Katie H. -:- Shredding the documents! - thanks, Patrick! (nt) -:- Mon, Mar 26, 2001 at 02:29:10 (GMT)
__ Roy -:- latest from me -:- Mon, Mar 26, 2001 at 02:18:41 (GMT)
__ Jim -:- Really wonderful -- thanks -:- Mon, Mar 26, 2001 at 02:14:22 (GMT)
__ __ JHB -:- Jim, I don't have any friends.... -:- Mon, Mar 26, 2001 at 21:51:35 (GMT)
__ __ __ Pat the Fat Fag -:- But I love you, you Latvian Irishman NT -:- Mon, Mar 26, 2001 at 22:04:12 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ JHB -:- Latvian Yorkshireman, please -:- Mon, Mar 26, 2001 at 22:19:46 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Pat Conlon -:- John: point taken, slap accepted -:- Mon, Mar 26, 2001 at 23:23:27 (GMT)
__ __ Mercedes -:- Really wonderful -- thanks -:- Mon, Mar 26, 2001 at 04:35:44 (GMT)
__ moldy warp -:- Very powerful post. Just taking it in at the mo nt -:- Mon, Mar 26, 2001 at 02:10:49 (GMT)


Date: Mon, Mar 26, 2001 at 17:12:14 (GMT)
From: Katie Darling
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: My point, and I did have one...
Message:
WOW!

WOW! I went off for a day and came back and got an e-mail saying there was a huge thread. It was a brilliant thread, I thought.

Re: The Substance thang: I just want to confess, apologize, and make abject amends: I don't think my original post was very clear. The whole thing about substances was a secondary analogy I was trying to use to make the point about K and MJ being an avoidance device. I have absolutely observed correlations regarding different substances and emotions, but then there's always a contrary argument I could make, too. I was just being lawyerly, trying to make a point. Because actually, I don't like those kind of categorizations except as dynamic, in-the-moment correlations. I can't stand the Louise Hay thing, for example, where your left knee means moving forward in your mother stuff or some such... Up to a certain point, noticing patterns and correlations can be illuminating, and beyond that point, it is limiting. I think that the way I put it forth was confusing. Oh yes, and... party on, dudes!

My point (and I did have one) was that there was something in ME that drew me to M and K, and which I used it to avoid. I thought it was very interestingly discussed. I particularly enjoyed the responsibility/non-reponsibility debate.

My approach is both/and (rather than either/or) on this. Whether one is a victim or not is not a fixed reality. It's just a belief. One belief says, 'I am a victim of circumstances.' The other says, 'I am the creator of my experience.' I consider beliefs to be TOOLS. There are moments when it is really appropriate to acknowledge that I was a victim. This can bring back the color to my cheeks, and the spring to my step. Otherwise I just beat myself up, and get more victimized. Once I complete that phase, I can try out the other belief, and explore where my experience might have been attracted by stuff inside me. If you have done this part, re the MJ experience, you know that it frees up enormous amounts of energy. The problem - in the sense of being deleterious to one's emotional health IMO - is when one gets stuck in either belief. If I get stuck thinking I'm a victim, then I will never own my power, reclaim my sovereignty etc. (BTW, I love these kinds of terms and words that some find uncool. For me and many others, they are the skin of, or codes for, very real bodies of experience). If I get into a rigid 'personal responsibility' stance, then it might work for me, but the problem then arises of projection, where I go around and tell OTHER PEOPLE that they are creating a particular reality, when at that moment what is needed is compassion and an acknowledgement of their hurt.

And, re. these phases I described above, of responsibility/non-responsibility: it's not linear. I might need to revisit them at different times. My own experience, these days, is that I attempt to hold both perspectives simultaneously, for different aspects of myself, which seems to work well, but it might sound a bit complicated.

So I like to swing both ways in my journey away from MJ and K (and in all other areas, but I'm trying to stay on-topic), in a dynamic and sensitive edge between acknowledging the outer shit which affected me, and the inner shit which prepaved my attraction to the outer shit. This edginess takes more effort, but seems to me to be the place where the most creative stuff happens. And the kind of healing/recovery/therapy/whatever that I personally advocate for leaving MJ is very creative. It is quite analogous to other kinds of creativity. It's a reorganization of self, by first introducing turbulence (changing beliefs) and allowing the chaotic process of change to occur. I have found myself (and many I have worked with) have gone through shifts and changes in the process of deep decultification (D.D. - HA! there's a new name for it!) that are incredibly enjoyable. A huge sense of having more of one's marbles available in many dimensions of the self. Although I don't like the long-term physical effects that my time in DLM had, there are ways in which the emergence from such a straitjacket forced me to go so deeply into parts of myself that I would never have gone willingly, but which turned out to be doorways to much more joy and fun. Deep decultification, where you include yourself in the experiment! The confines of the cult go deep, and simply opposing it can be a bit of a trap without the D.D.

I share Donner's concerns about the Forum, because I do have a passionate desire to do anything in my power to help people who are exiting, and I also believe in the value of safety. Safety means that it is okay to be vulnerable - that I will be held carefully and respectfully by those present as I go through my changes, because I am vulnerable when going through changes. Like a baby being born who really doesn't need anyone criticizing him for all the mess on his body. I think that there is a big disowned shadow of vulnerability that can loom up when leaving MJ. While we are under his Lota feet, we are completely open and surrendered and vulnerable to his 'power.' Then we discover that he is using his power abusively, and we get out and start reclaiming our own power (even if we are allergic to that phrase). Then we can become resistant to our own and others' vulnerability and feel threatened by it, and perhaps pounce on it in others and deny it in ourselves.

However, re this Forum, I understand that it's not appropriate to control it. But I am just adding my voice as much as I can to the consensus about care and safety. And I think that a link to an exiting section will be great. I offered to do this years ago, but never found the energy. I'm so glad there are lots of people into this now. Yippee!

About the addiction model: it can be helpful for some, as Richard said.

Thanks to Donner and Jim and La-ex and Susan and Katie and Richard and Joy and Joe and Pat and Jerry and all of you for your passionate ideas.

love Katie Darling

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Date: Mon, Mar 26, 2001 at 17:56:40 (GMT)
From: Richard
Email: None
To: Katie Darling
Subject: Your post keep kicking up ideas - here's 2
Message:
Thanks for that further exploration of the avoidance thing. Here are some thoughts it kicked up for me. Some ideas I've been noodling about explained in sketchy form.

Postie's First Theorem: Where the imagination ends, religion can begin.
THE RELIGION OF SATGURU
A desire for transcendance mixed with an hallucinagenic catapult launched me to an awareness of my self in the cosmos that was profound but not sustainable. I could not continue getting 'there' via drugs - not sustainable. So I was left with a huge void to be filled. In walks the Sat Guru who could not only explain everything but take on the role of 'understander'. I could relax and give all my 'need to know' to him and he'd tell me what I needed to know. In my current view, every religion is a convenient way to explain the unexplainable to the unimaginative. The avoidance here (as KD suggests) is avoiding having to take responsibility for my own awareness.


Postie's Second Theorem: The shadow of the counter culture's rejected materialism made Maharaji wealthy.
IF MAHARAJI IS GOD, HE'S THE GOD AMERICA DESERVES
This comment by the late Abbie Hoffman rings true these 28 years later. Many of us rejected the 'establishment' and the 'consumer culture' in the late 60's / early '70's. Some of us lived communally, and intentionally lived simply. But the shadow of that rejected consumerism was stil there. Maharaji was the perfect place to project that shadow because he was the only one who could possibly deserve to live the good life of consumerism. Naturally we would want him to have everything because we had rejected it. (There are huge self-worth issues wrapped up in this I'll leave to the shrinks.) The avoidance here is not dealing properly with or taking ownership for my desire to participate in the consumer culture.

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Date: Mon, Mar 26, 2001 at 20:24:18 (GMT)
From: cq
Email: None
To: Richard
Subject: 'the god america deserves' ...
Message:
... so that was the late Abbie Hoffman I saw saying that on the 'Lord of the Universe' documentary? (premies and ex-premies alike - please note: this is not the movie of the same title you saw projected on various ashram and church-hall walls - this is the documentary made at the time of Millennium 73 - another experience of the 'master' you may have yet missed.)


Veeeeeeeeery interesting point you make there, Rick, (or do you prefer to be called Richard?) - that the anti-consumerism of the late 60s and early 70s was a major contributory factor of us early premies projecting all our anti-materialist values onto the only person we thought capable of handling such 'bread-headed' concepts.

Strange how the object of our projections is still trapped in the materialism we professed to reject, ain't it?

Hmmmm, ... or if he ISN'T still trapped in materialism, how come he doesn't attempt to demonstrate that?

Remarkable to think that the followers trapped in Maya can be more free (a LOT more free, despite his material wealth) than the guru that would (well, that's what we were led to believe) once upon a time, have set them free ...

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Date: Mon, Mar 26, 2001 at 17:27:56 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Katie Darling
Subject: My point, and I did have one...
Message:
Katie,

I'd be interested in your response, if you wouldn't mind, to my comments in that thread:

'What I'm saying is that I think that counselling as a practise too easily smothers free debate. In so doing, it opens the door for all sorts of ideas that otherwise wouldn't see the light of day to find warm, sheltered comfort, comfort, perhaps, they just don't deserve.

You know, you say that you and some of your therapist friends 'played around' with listing some of these 'addiction correlations'. I don't mean to be rude but did you ever stop to think that maybe you guys were just making shit up and that perhaps it's unethical to try to impose these ideas, no matter how gently, on your clients as if you really knew what you were talking about? Is it the 'play' part of the exercise that somehow makes it all alright? Where's the accountability? Or is it all somehow just a bit beyond words?'

I mean, this whole 'correlation' thing. Is it ethical to trot that out at all unless you know that it's scientifically valid? Say you were counselling someone and you started to say this stuff, is your client going to be free to tell you that he thinks you're full of shit? Or is that going to just invite more 'focussing' on his 'defenses' etc.? The way I see it, it pretty well has to be the former or else there's no counsellor-client relationship at all. You're just a couple of equals talking about things. So I worry that the very assumption of the therapy hierarchy stifles free, honest expression.

By the way, ever hear of a guy named Am Rosen?

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Date: Mon, Mar 26, 2001 at 20:24:34 (GMT)
From: Dermot
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: if you dont mind me saying...
Message:
is it all as intricate, messy and serious as seems to be portryed ?
....in one sense I guess it is given what we've been through in the cult.....but something in me withdraws from taking all this counselling/cult recovery stuff so seriously....why? That's hard to explain.

I tend to empathise more with Jims approach and see all the (no doubt sincere) counselling approaches as somehow suspect. Being blunt (and I hope not too rude) it comes across to me as mumbo jumbo new age, new alternative, psychoanalytical ,ever so worthy but completely way over the top balderdash -:)) I know , I know you'll probably consider me a superficial moron for saying that!!

As I'm being so outspoken....may I continue? (pleaseee dont anyone take this personally)....is it coincidence (and I think I'm correct in this) that all the earnest proponents of all this heavy duty stuff are Americans? You know those American soaps....jeeze I can't remember the particular one that sums up what I'm trying to say......but it's about college kids...anyway....it's so mawkish ......one scene after another it's just really heavy emotional encounters....lots of sadness, tears, introspection, blame , guilt etc etc all very nice and worthy but so sticky.

Ok premies are stuck in a cult for various reasons but as we all came out of it for various reasons so will those who do....some though will remain in till they die.Let's face that FACT.
Other than the info on the site and the forum I dont think anything else will help. Oviously I'm in a minority on this(or I suppose I am)but that's the way I see it.

Sorrry if this has upset anyone....it's not meant to. Not in the slightest.It's just the way I feel.I especially hope the US reference doesnt offend anyone.....I made it because I do think in many ways the US is very different to the rest of the English speaking world. Emotionally and pychologically speaking. I know that's an outrageous generalisation .....but I think ( though there are more similarities in humans than differences) that cultural make up of a formative environment plays some part(only some mind you) of a persons Pychological make up. MY God that is a generalisation isn't it??/ Oh well sorry.

Best wishes to ya

Dermot

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Date: Tues, Mar 27, 2001 at 05:27:28 (GMT)
From: Mercedes
Email: None
To: Dermot
Subject: if you dont mind me saying...
Message:
Hi Dermot, I agree the US is its own thing but although I live here I was not born and raised here and I can tell you and whoever else that if it werent for the therapy I am in I would have never reached the point of leaving the cult. For me there were many reason why I was attracted to and stayed in such dysfunctional system, I felt protected etc, etc. I am really glad I am out and also I feel strongly that in my case I can correlate the experience I had with Mr. Rawat to addiction. In my case that was the case I was addicted to the high, the trance like feeling of being in his presence not realizing that I was making the stuff up, my brain was secreting whatever chemicals I needed to make me feel good. Yes it is a drug and it is inside of me, fuck. So I stay away now. I don't want to check out of reality and if therapy is needed so be it. I say that it may not be the solution for everybody. Each person needs to examine themselves and decide what for themselves what approach to take. I have a lot to deal with personally so I welcome the help.
Anyway this is my two cents worth.
Love,
Mercedes
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Date: Tues, Mar 27, 2001 at 22:49:26 (GMT)
From: Dermot
Email: None
To: Mercedes
Subject: Hi Mercedes
Message:
Thanks for your post....

Thats interesting about your therapy....what does it involve beside a direct debit bank arrangement -:)) No seriously ....what's the set-up? once a week /month.....and do you talk a lot about Rogue Rawat and your experiences of K or what?

I agree with what you said about 'every person should examine themselves' .....to me, that's all it needs. It's not easy though but really rewarding. Ive been reading this forum for quite a while, on& off and only recently posting....I can say 100% I'm an ex but it still amazes me how deep the conditioning went. The guy not only asked for our minds..he asked for our heart and 'soul' (whatever that is) or should I say he stole our mind, heart and soul......that'd be more accurate.

You know another thing that amazes me ......it still going on .....he came to England in 1970 and here we are 2001 and he's still plying his trade and getting away with it. I'll be seeing a few old mates around the country in the summer and some of em will still be going to vids ( or satellites I guess now)...hoping or wishing they get to Amaroo.....yet to me that is a distant and faraway world......not to them though....Rawat is still for many people that one unique, wise, ultra special person on the planet. I still like a lot of my premie though I havent been in touch for a while......I wonder what they'll make of my exness?

Anyway taake care....

wont be on the forum for the next few weeks .....gonna be busy

Cheers

Dermot

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Date: Wed, Mar 28, 2001 at 01:35:33 (GMT)
From: Mercedes
Email: None
To: Dermot
Subject: Hi Dermot
Message:
Thanks for your comments.
I see my therapist twice a month. We talk about everything, not particularly Rogue Rawart unless I bring it up. I say it all came to light after, and I already said this, a three day treatment workshop on codependence, my therapist was the moderator/presenter. It was great. So I deal with all my old stuff family issues, family addictions, etc.
It is great. It has helped me a lot.
And I agree with you that the conditioning and programing this guy did on us goes deep. It is good that this website excists (sp?)
Nice communicating with you.
Love to go to the UK.
Mercedes
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Date: Tues, Mar 27, 2001 at 06:24:14 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Mercedes
Subject: I've a question for you, Mercedes
Message:
Do you actually think that you could ever 'go back' now you know, for example, that Maharaji is a weak alcoholic? Or how about the stories of his exploitation of premie women? Do you think it's even possible that you could one day say you just don't care, you've got to start imagining he's in your breath again?

I don't.

As far as I'm concerned, anyone who truly reviews the current evidence about the man, where he's at and how he got there, the whole story, complete with its many chapters about guru sharks chasing each other around the pool, his profligate wealth, his killing the guy in India, all of it, has no choice but to say forget it. Yes, I know some premies have, in the past, slid back into the trap. That was all before the truth got blown wide open. I can't really imagine it now. Can you? Think about it.

Addiction, on the other hand, does require steady vigilance to avoid relapses, etc. It's usually a physical dependency, at minimum, and, as I mentioned before, one that can't be addressed by simple knowledge. We can know smoking's bad for us but quitting's another story. Once someone learns how fake Maharaji is, though, it really is game over.

Yes, there might be a lifetime of sorrow, shame and anger to follow. Maybe a need for all sorts of counselling. But I think the addiction model is more confusing than helpful in the circumstances. Not only does it raise unnecessary fears, like that of relapse, but it also incites unnecessary guilt. The way I see it, people really do have to assume some responsibility for the various addictions they fall prey to. But we were conned and sucked right in. I don't care what anyone says, it wasn't our fault. Anymore than any of the millions of peopel who get sucked into any religion. It's just getting sucked in, is all. Yet the addiction model, for all its talk of 'self empowerment' lays a sizeable guilt trip on the cult member. That can't help nothing.

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Date: Tues, Mar 27, 2001 at 17:04:28 (GMT)
From: Mercedes
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Here is my answer Jim
Message:
Hi Jim,
I agree with you that after reading this website I can't go back. It has helped me tremendously. Also I have to deal with that part of myself that needed to have such god/father/protector figure. For that I am in therapy. That tendensy in me predisposed me to m and his schemes. When I call it addiction I don't feel I will relapse by going back, I am acknowledging that I was getting a high, that high I don't want in my life be it with m or anyone else. Could be my boyfriend. It is complicated and I hope my words shed some light.
I am talking about being present not checked out in some fantasy. I feel that with m I was perpetuating a fantasy (with his absolute help) that he was my god. I am very pissed off at that, very I tell you. And I need to examine my own predisposition.
That's all.
Mercedes
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Date: Tues, Mar 27, 2001 at 17:26:39 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Mercedes
Subject: Mind if I continue?
Message:
Also I have to deal with that part of myself that needed to have such god/father/protector figure. For that I am in therapy. That tendensy in me predisposed me to m and his schemes.

Who told you this? How'd you figure out that you had this 'predisposition'? And would you say that all cult members have it as well? What about the early Mormons? Did all the original Mormons who followed Joseph Smith out west have such a predisposition? Certainly they were in a cult but he took whole towns and villages. Or at least large sections of same. Was he only catching the people with such dysfunctional tendencies? Did they all need therapy?

How about all the Serbs who supported Milosevic? Should we be air-dropping tens of thousands of therapists into Belgrade? Or all the arabs who exhibit such fanatical allegiance to their despots and clergy? Therapists all round?

Unless you were a serial cult joiner, with a whole littany of similar enslavements in your past, I'd say you have far too small a sample size to ever extrapolate the general 'truth' that youv'e got a problem.

Mind you, I can't imagine your therapist agreeing. Can you?

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Date: Tues, Mar 27, 2001 at 17:55:00 (GMT)
From: Mercedes
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: laughing!!!!
Message:
Jim you made me rolled over with laughter.
I can only talk about my own experience and if it benefits someone else fine. I am not generalizing. And yes I have a problem so I take care of it. That's why honesty with myself and other is super important and one of the many reasons I left the cult was the lack of it.
Loved the dropping of therapists in Belgrade bit.
I am still laughing.
As for the mormons yeap they are a cult alright and who knows why ppeople follow...
Still laughing
Mercedes
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Date: Mon, Mar 26, 2001 at 21:40:07 (GMT)
From: Hal
Email: None
To: Dermot
Subject: I know exactly what you mean Dermot...
Message:
Stop apologising !!!! You must be from the UK to keep saying sorry ?

I do that and I'm a Brit (well an Irish Brit )

Steve
Mulley.

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Date: Mon, Mar 26, 2001 at 21:58:24 (GMT)
From: Dermot
Email: None
To: Hal
Subject: yep hal 1st gen. english/total Irish family ! nt
Message:
z
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Date: Tues, Mar 27, 2001 at 06:25:23 (GMT)
From: Hal
Email: None
To: Dermot
Subject: Me too ! Dermot OT
Message:
I always remember one of the ' crocodile Dundee' films when I think of therapy.

He asks his girlfriend what a shrink does and she tells him that you just relax and talk to them really. His reply was ' well haven't they got any mates '.

I'm notputting down people who find therapy helpful. However you Dermot were expressing a cultural difference which I identify with.

We are , especially the males, a bit puzzled by this therapy for everything American trend. One reason is I think that British men are 'do it yourself' types on the whole. We go off into the proverbial Martian cave and sort it out. I'm not defending this trait as being the way to be but just telling it as I see it.

cheers
Steve

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Date: Mon, Mar 26, 2001 at 21:43:21 (GMT)
From: Pat Conlon
Email: None
To: Hal
Subject: Us Irishmen prefer a pint to therapy NT
Message:
j
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Date: Mon, Mar 26, 2001 at 21:39:13 (GMT)
From: Pat Conlon
Email: None
To: Dermot
Subject: Yes, Dermot - therapy is the Yank religion
Message:
It's all too much like navel-gazing for my tastes and I don't have the time or money to spend on that. Keeping my thoughts optimistic, real and honest and speaking positive truth works for me. I would rather make energetic progress in the good than endlessly analyze the bad.
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Date: Mon, Mar 26, 2001 at 21:47:31 (GMT)
From: JHB
Email: None
To: Pat Conlon
Subject: I was about to say the same
Message:
In Yorkshire, we don't do therapy, in fact those of us who've eard of it, say it's for those soft southerners.

Look it's bloody simple. Maharaji's a fraud, we find out, we dump him. Simple. What's the fuss all about?

John.

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Date: Mon, Mar 26, 2001 at 21:56:23 (GMT)
From: Dermot
Email: None
To: JHB
Subject: hahah thats what I meant john !! nt
Message:
zz
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Date: Mon, Mar 26, 2001 at 21:54:33 (GMT)
From: Pat Conlon
Email: None
To: JHB
Subject: You must be an Irish Latvian NT
Message:
j
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Date: Mon, Mar 26, 2001 at 17:44:34 (GMT)
From: Katie Darling
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: My point, and I did have one...
Message:
'Imposed these ideas on my clients?' Er... no! Just on you (and other victims of reading this Forum).

You sound really pissed off at some therapist. I don't really want to hold the other end of that stick.

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Date: Tues, Mar 27, 2001 at 00:05:51 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Katie Darling
Subject: Boy, did you ever prove my point in spades!
Message:
I sound really pissed off at some therapist? Really? How about I just think that lots of 'therapy' is bullshit. Or is that me being in denial or something?

Who gave you the special insight to tell the one from the other? To be able to dismiss my questions on the basis that they're really nothing but a reflection of what's wrong with me?

I assume that you mean well, Katie, but you just now exemplified everything that sucks about counselling. I approached you as one adult to another, equals, and tried to discuss this issue. You, on the other hand, side-stepped the substance of my comments and tried to stand on some higher perch to talk down to me about my 'anger'. Who gave you the right to do that? Your fellow therapists?

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Date: Tues, Mar 27, 2001 at 01:03:44 (GMT)
From: moldy warp
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Jim there's something about you that I gives me
Message:
an irresistable urge to argue with you. take that as a compliment if you like.You bring out the New Ager in me. Katie's just talking to you -talking up or down or sideways or whatever. It is adult to adult.Only you can put yourself in an inferior position to her. Reclaim your power. As Dr, Phil (of Oprah fame, my new Lord) quotes 'No one can make you feel inferior without your consent' (Eleanor Roosevelt) You should try co-counselling - totally equal.
Moldy W awaiting a bollocking
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Date: Tues, Mar 27, 2001 at 01:15:31 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: moldy warp
Subject: Something that I gives me the same urge, I guess
Message:
Hi moldy,

I never said for a moment that I 'felt inferior', did I? Read my post again if you have to. It's not there. But thanks, oh so much, for encouraging me to 'reclaim' my power. Do you mind if I ask you, like I asked donner earlier, if that means anything?

And yes, I really should try co-counselling. It sounds very exciting.

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Date: Tues, Mar 27, 2001 at 01:35:49 (GMT)
From: Dermot
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Jim ....how did you do that? OT
Message:
Jim

How did you get the 'moldy said'followed by her post..

and 'Jim said'.....

I can't find it in the help section.

Cheers

Dermot

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Date: Tues, Mar 27, 2001 at 01:45:32 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Dermot
Subject: Just check 'Quote this message in Reply' (nt)
Message:
hhhhhhhh
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Date: Tues, Mar 27, 2001 at 01:53:58 (GMT)
From: Dermot
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Duhhh ....of course (nt)
Message:
zz
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Date: Tues, Mar 27, 2001 at 01:55:39 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Dermot
Subject: Why is it all MY supporters are kind of dumb?
Message:
How come I don't get any of the smart ones? Huh? FA?
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Date: Tues, Mar 27, 2001 at 21:56:38 (GMT)
From: JHB
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Hey, I'm bright!
Message:
although I've got no friends apart from you

John
the friend of Jim

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Date: Wed, Mar 28, 2001 at 00:00:02 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: JHB
Subject: What's the emoticon for blushing?
Message:
That was so bea

UT

iful
, John. I'm printing this one!

Jim
The Friend of Jim

er, .... ?

The Friend of John

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Date: Tues, Mar 27, 2001 at 18:29:07 (GMT)
From: suchabuono
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Well,like attracts like; 'Blow' me, pea-brain! LOL
Message:
Jim:

This is just a JOKE, of course! [unlike your countless facetious insults and mean-spirited jokes and putdowns directed at others. haha]

Looks like someone maybe likes to indulge 'something' late at night, huh?! Your posts get weirder the later you stay up -- 'blow' or Scotch, what's your drug addiction, anyway?! Or is it EGO binging?! [This is just another JOKE, of course.]

Or, maybe you would like a REAL 'psychoanalysis' done by my psychiatrist friend who has been reading some of your viler posts? haha

Hell hath no fury like a pea-brain attorney. [just joking}

Hope you got MY point, dumbshit [another joke - like your 'fuck off' and 'fuck you' style language]! [as usual, probably not]

So, don't even bother responding... I don't associate with archetypal patent morons who don't know the first thing about social relations because they're so 'fucking' thick in the head and hopeless. haha

Honestly, If you ever want to have a civil, intelligent conversation, change your stupid ugly tune and denial. I'll bet you totally suck as a guitarist, too. [I've had to teach a lot of professional musicians how to undo and change their bad habits, sloppy technique, and ugly sound.]

hope you got the point this time, you dunce! Your real problem is that your mouth is bigger than your 'dick' (just joking, of course) Hey, 'I get to beat up on the dumb guy' {just joking, of course} Must be your 'old-agey squishy thinking'. You should set up a practice, hang out a solicitor shingle advertising 'Demented Panderer of Demeaning Stereotypes and Profane Insults'.
[haha, just joking, of course]

Maybe one day even a dumbshit like you will finally 'get the point'! In the meantime, bend over and go 'blow' yourself, you sick little pooftah... haha ...'cause You ARE the fucking joke, bloke!

As you yourself have phrased it [in so many ways] to others: 'fuck off', you total jerk-off. hope you got the point this time, Jim.

LOL,

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Date: Wed, Mar 28, 2001 at 00:03:20 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: suchabuono
Subject: Well,like attracts like; 'Blow' me, pea-brain! LOL
Message:
You're asking for it, such. Fuck off or you'll end up having another crisis of some sort. I can just feel it.
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Date: Tues, Mar 27, 2001 at 07:50:32 (GMT)
From: Brianless Smith
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Was that you I supported that one time? I think so
Message:
or was that some other Jim, Geez, you got me there....
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Date: Tues, Mar 27, 2001 at 08:03:26 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Brianless Smith
Subject: Uh oh! I can't post here if I can't joke safely
Message:
I'm starting to feel abused.
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Date: Tues, Mar 27, 2001 at 20:59:24 (GMT)
From: Brainless Smith
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Delete this Joke Thread / abusive and detrimental
Message:
and is not in the spirit if good safe joking, FA we need to make this forum .............. just kidding

HA HA HA HA Ha ha ha ha, ONE OF THE FUNNIEST yet from you Jim

From your rooting gallery

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Date: Tues, Mar 27, 2001 at 12:49:26 (GMT)
From: sean
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Uh oh! I can't post here if I can't joke safely
Message:
I do consider myself one of your 'supporters', though I don't leap to your defense-I think you're more than capable. Your posts are always clear and to the point. There are times when I think you ought to let things go, but what the hell. Sometimes it's good to let folks yell a bit.
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Date: Tues, Mar 27, 2001 at 02:10:12 (GMT)
From: Dermot
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: You surely dont mean me? -:) (nt)
Message:
zz
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Date: Tues, Mar 27, 2001 at 02:07:35 (GMT)
From: Pat the Fat Fag
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: We might be dumb but we've got chutzpah
Message:
Balls in English. But of course people like to argue with you because you enjoy arguing. You're the pro. We're just cheeky amateurs.
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Date: Tues, Mar 27, 2001 at 03:56:58 (GMT)
From: Sean the dumb Mick
Email: None
To: Pat the Fat Fag
Subject: We might be dumb but we've got chutzpah
Message:
Ah Jaysus Jimmy boyo, yer the grand one! Let me just put down me Guinness so's I can sup on yer teat, I'll try not to drool.
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Date: Tues, Mar 27, 2001 at 14:16:37 (GMT)
From: Marianne
Email: None
To: Sean the dumb Mick
Subject: Fag hag and weakness for Irish lads
Message:
Oh God, I'm laughin' and cryin' at the same time. You Irish lads were always my weakness (and Pat, you're a twofer: fag & Irish!!). It's that wry, silver tongued wit and humor, and those gorgeous, heart-melting smiles..... All tough on the outside and soft and mushy inside. Aye, I'm in love!

Now all of you Irish lads stop tormenting me! I know you're doing this on purpose. Did I mention the people who are talking to me through the fillings in my teeth?

Love yas, Marianne

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Date: Wed, Mar 28, 2001 at 03:39:24 (GMT)
From: sean the mushy
Email: None
To: Marianne
Subject: Voices in your fillings
Message:
Well, you know, once they dug up all the blackthorn the fairies had to have somewhere to go.
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Date: Tues, Mar 27, 2001 at 15:03:55 (GMT)
From: Seamus O' Malley
Email: None
To: Marianne
Subject: Oye broch 'n geshreegen--- Fock oim pissed nt ot
Message:
nt
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Date: Wed, Mar 28, 2001 at 08:50:55 (GMT)
From: Marianne
Email: None
To: Seamus O' Malley
Subject: You all proved my point!
Message:
Stop already. My tender heart can't stand it.

Maybe I'll have to create a female TED Farkel so I can flirt with you guys. Guess I'd better check with my husband first....


Much love, thanks for the laughs,
Marianne

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Date: Mon, Mar 26, 2001 at 22:40:45 (GMT)
From: moldy warp
Email: None
To: Katie Darling
Subject: To Katie I'm English and I rather like American
Message:
therapy stuff. Just backing you up here.I can be an old English 'just stiffen your lip and get on with it' gal on Tuesdays and Thursdays but rest of the week I'm into Dr Phil and his 'Life Strategy' thing (of Oprah fame). I can get a lot of mileage out of something you said at top of thread - about sometimes acknowledging victim thing and sometimes looking at 'why did I get into Lard thing'. Dr Phil says that if you look at your negative habits and choices you ALWAYS do them for a pay off - so you ask -'wots in it for me??' - cos there's always something. I reckon the divergent opinions on this thread are as much a boy/girl thing as an English/American thing.
Love Moldy Warp who has left the Lard and now worships Dr Phil (who's much better looking IMO)xx
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Date: Mon, Mar 26, 2001 at 22:50:39 (GMT)
From: Pat Conlon
Email: None
To: moldy warp
Subject: Moldy, boy/girl divergence - the thought occurred
Message:
to me too. Without sounding sexist, I hope, girls do like to talk about their inner feelings more than boys. And boys generally do seem to shy away from it.

I am not knocking therapy if it is done with a spirit of simplicity and honesty but still think it is best to live proactively and affirmatively rather than retro-actively and passively.

Also I don't believe in fighting evil but making progress in good, affirming health and sanity rather than dwelling on dis-ease, not resisting evil, but spreading goodness.

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Date: Tues, Mar 27, 2001 at 06:48:19 (GMT)
From: Gary Epton
Email: epton@magma.ca
To: Pat Conlon
Subject: Moldy, boy/girl divergence - the thought occurred
Message:
Well, sometimes you gotta back the car up before you can drive forward. There's a problem when the act of backing up becomes an on-going destination - with the help of the navigator. But with the right directions it couldn't hurt to blow off some exhaust and slip it into gear. Figure this guy-friendly car talk will make all the difference ...
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Date: Tues, Mar 27, 2001 at 13:38:06 (GMT)
From: Katie H.
Email: None
To: Gary Epton
Subject: great analogy (snicker)
Message:
Actually, I thought it was good, but the 'car talk' thing made me laugh. I know just as many women who are resistant to therapy as men, as a matter of fact.
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Date: Mon, Mar 26, 2001 at 23:00:42 (GMT)
From: moldy warp
Email: None
To: Pat Conlon
Subject: Pat a touch of the men from Mars and women from
Message:
Venus there. I agree with you though for anyone reading this I must add a very important caveat - I don't think this boy/girl difference is genetic - just conditioned.

Re:therapy. On tuesdays and thursadays (and possibly also Fridays) I worry that therapy always sets up a power-over situation... and I don't like handing over my power to anyone that is in a position of potential 'power-over' me... if you know wot I mean. (unless I need brain surgery and it is a brain surgeon)

On fighting evil: I can't generalise. Different situations require diff. actions. But I like your positive stance. Keep trucking babe. Love Moldyxxx

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Date: Mon, Mar 26, 2001 at 23:59:49 (GMT)
From: Pat the Fat Fag
Email: None
To: moldy warp
Subject: Yes, Moldy, gender differences are not my bag
Message:
I healed eight years of mental and physical sickness with affirmations so I prefer being positive and doing it on my own than being passive and letting it be done to me. Power cannot be given to someone. You have to take it for yourself.
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Date: Tues, Mar 27, 2001 at 00:20:15 (GMT)
From: moldy w
Email: None
To: Pat the Fat Fag
Subject: Pat the FF Agree agree and agree
Message:
I like taking (so to speak) Dr Phil (see my above post to Katie)at a distance from the tele or a book. But probably would not take kindly to taking him in person. (sts again)I have an aversion to handing my power over to anyone. Am into grabbing life by the balls. BTW love all your posts about Hindu satanism santaism. Apropos my Email about 'Letters froma senior to a junior devil' I must admit to rather liking the idea of their being evil to fight. Bit of the Aries 'knight in shining armour syndrome' no doubt!
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Date: Tues, Mar 27, 2001 at 02:15:13 (GMT)
From: Pat the Fat Fag
Email: None
To: moldy w
Subject: Moldy: You gotta have heart......or is that balls?
Message:
Wise One, Confuse You, Say: ''Never grab a bull by the balls. Poke a stick in its arse.''

But seriously; it's more like that old saying: ''Don't fight evil with evil.'' Make fun of it instead.

You know what I mean.

Like your new balls, Ram-lady.

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Date: Mon, Mar 26, 2001 at 15:30:21 (GMT)
From: em
Email: emanuela_gr@hotmail.com
To: Everyone
Subject: MAHARAJI SUPPORTERS IN GREECE...
Message:
I AM FROM GREECE AND I WANT TO FIND OUT ABOUT SUPPORTERS OF MAHARAJI IN GREECE ...IS VERY IMPORTANT ....PLEASE HELP ME
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Date: Tues, Mar 27, 2001 at 06:53:26 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: em
Subject: Took a wrong turn, white boy? (nt)
Message:
fffff
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Date: Mon, Mar 26, 2001 at 16:20:49 (GMT)
From: Richard
Email: None
To: em
Subject: Try these websites
Message:
This is a website for those who no longer follow Maharaji. The information you want may be at these websites:

Maharaji's site

Élan Vital

If you want to know the truth about Maharaji, please return and read the information gathered here.

All the best on your quest. - Richard

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Date: Mon, Mar 26, 2001 at 16:18:18 (GMT)
From: JHB
Email: None
To: em
Subject: Contact Elan Vital
Message:
For your info, this is a forum for former followers of Maharaji, and our purpose is to help former followers to free themselves from the cult. I am unaware of any former followers posting here from Greece.

Elan Vital is the organisation that supports Maharaji. They might be able to help you. If you are not a follower and are considering having Maharaji as a teacher, I strongly advise against it. Maharaji is a greedy fraud who has hurt many people. Read www.ex-premie.org to find more details.

John.

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Date: Mon, Mar 26, 2001 at 16:11:14 (GMT)
From: Mercedes
Email: None
To: em
Subject: Not on this website (nt)
Message:
no, no.
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Date: Mon, Mar 26, 2001 at 15:56:57 (GMT)
From: Steve Quint
Email: the_avenger55@hotmail.com
To: em
Subject: They're All Greecy (nt)
Message:
nt
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Date: Mon, Mar 26, 2001 at 14:59:55 (GMT)
From: La-ex
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: Why did we get involved in the first place?(poll)
Message:
Based on some posts below with Mike Donner, I'd like to ask everyone:

1)Why they got involved with M in the first place?(one or two of the top reasons)
2)Also, why did they stay for as long as they did?
3)Also, what was the 'final straw' for them that led them to leave?

I think a list would be very interesting...it might make an interesting summary to be put on a page for newcomers questioning their involvement...

I'm working on mine, will post them later...

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Date: Wed, Mar 28, 2001 at 06:03:16 (GMT)
From: Gary Epton
Email: epton@magma.ca
To: La-ex
Subject: Why did we get involved in the first place?(poll)
Message:
I got involved 'cuz I was shown an undeniable source of 'peace' inside.
I hung around 'cuz I trusted him implicitly.
I left him 'cuz he betrayed that trust by his actions: lack of responsibility and love and commitment towards those who dedicated their lives to him; revelations of hypocritical and dysfunctional behaviours; noticed that despite numerous fund-raising drives and revised methods of propogation the actual number of people receiving k and hanging around had dwindled.
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Date: Tues, Mar 27, 2001 at 13:46:25 (GMT)
From: Katie H
Email: None
To: La-ex
Subject: Why did we get involved in the first place?(poll)
Message:
Hi La-ex -
Why I got involved in the first place?

Two reasons. I was 16, had been doing a lot of spiritual searching, sometimes in pretty weird places. Also, my parents had mostly abdicated responsibility for me and their other kids starting when I was around age 14, which was quite scary. So what attracted me was:

1. The promise of easy enlightenment. I had read a LOT of spiritual books, and they all made it seem like it would take forever. The story on knowledge (at the time, anyway) was that it would change you overnight.

2. The attraction of an ordered lifestyle in a community. Basically, I wanted someone to care about me and tell me not to do self-destructive things. Maharaji had rules (back THEN, anyway), and the other premies in the community did really care.

What kept me in?
Well, receiving K was a big disappointment. Then I started thinking it was MY fault that it didn't work - if I could only be more devoted, or 'better' in some way, I would experience more. I heard people all around me talking about the great experiences they were having, so I was hoping I could feel that too.

Also, I was afraid to leave because of the rotten vegetables and other threats, and fear that Maharaji had supernatural powers and would make me go nuts if I didn't practice K.

What was the final straw?
I've already described this in detail recently, but it was realizing that DLM/EV was just another religion. Also, I grew up, to put it simply, and grew out of my need for a substitute parent.

Thanks for asking - good questions!
Take care,
Katie

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Date: Tues, Mar 27, 2001 at 14:52:05 (GMT)
From: Katie H.
Email: None
To: LAX
Subject: BTW, I do have more reasons - uh oh
Message:
Particularly the fear of apocalypse/save the world motivation, and thinking that it would 'fix' everything if everyone could be premies.

Every time I think about this, I come up with a different angle. It's a complicated topic - difficult to summarize in a paragraph!

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Date: Tues, Mar 27, 2001 at 11:46:19 (GMT)
From: Bryn
Email: Bryndaviesesq@hotmail
To: La-ex
Subject: Why did we get involved in the first place?(poll)
Message:
Got involved because of unconscious Mesiah/christian conditioning. Also high self expectation and idealism.

Stayed because of social re-enforcement. Also inner collapse of self due to no instruction about significance of k.techniques.

No final straw as such. Discovery of a rational body of literature on western esoteric experience. Forum info revaaled my potential for projection and self delusion. Prior to forum I had not evolved a language to reflect on M-his attributes and supposed attributes.
love bryn

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Date: Tues, Mar 27, 2001 at 19:18:47 (GMT)
From: Pat Conlon
Email: None
To: Bryn
Subject: Bryn, thanks for saying this
Message:
You said one of the reasons for leaving the cult was ''discovery of a rational body of literature on western esoteric experience.''

Thanks, yes we do have as much in our culture to do with metaphysics as anything that has come from India and is is often free of primitve superstitions and is not amoral or unethical.

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Date: Tues, Mar 27, 2001 at 10:24:35 (GMT)
From: Marianne
Email: delores@gofree.indigo.ie
To: La-ex
Subject: Why did we get involved in the first place?(poll)
Message:
Hi la-ex.

I got involved (November '72) because I wanted to change the world. I was only 16. Captain Rawat and DLM were then telling us that practicing knowledge was going to end war and hunger, that there would be 1000 years of peace. I wanted to be a part of that. I also wanted the extended family that I got in the ashram as mine was self destructing.

I stayed for 4 years, because I believed what I had been told about the cult master and the cult.

I left for a couple of reasons: I was working in the jails in San Francisco counselling inmates and helping them prepare for re-entry into the community. They had nothing. Captain Rawat and DLM had no interest in dealing with the real, everyday problems of people in desperate need. Then there was a big push to send money for the Malibu house. The contrast between the prisoners' lives and Captain Rawat's was too extreme for me. I couldn't justify giving him more money for something he did not need when these people I dealt with nearly every day could have changed their lives with a few hundred dollars -- gotten decent places to live, schooling, a modest car to drive to work, etc.

I also realized that I could do something meaningful in the world myself, without him, which could really help other people in a material way -- by becoming a criminal defense lawyer. So I guess I had an ephiphany: Rawat was greedy, other people are in dire need and he doesn't care, and I had the power to change the world myself.

Marianne

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Date: Tues, Mar 27, 2001 at 00:10:02 (GMT)
From: Brian Smith
Email: None
To: La-ex
Subject: Why did we get involved in the first place?(poll)
Message:
Good questions and a good excercise in examining our experience

1)Why they got involved with M in the first place?(one or two of the top reasons)
2)Also, why did they stay for as long as they did?
3)Also, what was the 'final straw' for them that led them to leave?

I had grown tried and distrustful of convenional religions, I was a real seeker of truth and checked out everything with an inquiring mind. At age 23, After a near death experience, (like Chuck mentioned below) I became deeply comitted to exploring the answers to my mortality and discovering the purpose of life. I was haunted by the idea that something was going on and I was missing it, I wanted to know what that greater purpose was.

I stumbled on to Maharaji in June 72 when I saw a poster announcing this 14 year old perfect masters visit to the city where I live, I gathered up all of my family and friends that I could and went to see him speak, he never showed up, most everyone else with me that night thought that it was because he was afraid of the christian demonstators. To me it represented the kind of irreverance and cavalier attitude that
exemplified supreme confidence of purpose and mission. This was exactly what I was looking for, How could anyone call an event and not show and still expect you to believe what they were saying about him unless he truly was the Lord incarnate. And they were calling him the Lord of the Universe and singing it and shouting it.
In my ignorance I interpreted it as a test of faith, I was hooked and I put everything in my life on hold and followed m to montrose and half way around the world for years.

Mata Ji, Bal Bagwan Ji and Bhole Ji were all sitting around on stage surrounded by flowers and mahatma's. It was a very heady evening for me and I was enchanted by it all, I had to know more,
I was obviously ripe for the picking.

I stayed 28 years and I rationalized all of M's many slight of hand moves and manipulations as lila, I was blinded by my illusion of devotion. I had many good experiences along the way and I tended to rely on eurphoric recall whenever anything distasteful about the cult and m presented itself.

I eventually drifted to the perifery, then again a couple of years ago I attempted to support the local church ladies and do service but the atmosphere was so filled with paranoia and power tripping that I threw my hands up and stayed out of it after a few months of wierdness.

I continued to do what I do best up until Dec of 2000, which was bring new folks to the videos events and recruit people to the cult. That all came to to a sudden stop after finding this site Dec/7/00, after just 6 (six) weeks of researching the data base and posting my own experiences I publicly reclaimed my freedom from the cult, posted my full name and am still processing and cleansing as of now.
It is good to be free and awake and I am making amends now to all of those that I mislead along the way.

The final straw was finding out the truth about m and the cult from others who spoke freely of their experience without fear.

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Date: Mon, Mar 26, 2001 at 22:10:33 (GMT)
From: Chuck Sprague
Email: bctanda@hotmail.com
To: La-ex
Subject: Why did we get involved in the first place?(poll)
Message:
Good questions:
1)Why they got involved with M in the first place?(one or two of the top reasons)
2)Also, why did they stay for as long as they did?
3)Also, what was the 'final straw' for them that led them to leave?

My answers:

1.) A close brush with death left me feeling vulnerable. It left me distrusting all concepts and beliefs about religion and life after death. M. was offer something that, he said, was not a concept, not a religion, and certainly not a cult, but an EXPERIENCE. My brush with death left me feeling very much in the present moment, and grateful for my life. I wanted to stay in that space, but without feeling terrified of death all the time. I had hopes that the meditation M. taught might be a practical way to do that.

2.) I came to Knowlege through the hippy-gay community of the Haight Ashbury. The Premies were mostly loving and fun to be with, if somewhat wacky. They had a healthy disregard for all the religious aspects of M and K, which reassured me. The hindu stuff started to dissapear in the 1980's, M. seemed less distant for a time, and I had high hopes he would really spread Knowledge in the west. The meditation did help me, in that it gave me a quiet, inner strenghth I hadn't been in touch with before. It didn't completely take away my fear of death, but it did help me to stay more in the present moment, and I came to see the fear of death as a healthy and natural thing anyway. Medition has helped me accept a lot of mysteries of life that can't be explained, to not bother about questions for which there are no answers (like what happens to you after you die). I had misgivings about a lot of the stuff surrounding M. and M. himself, but the good parts kept me going, and helped me tolerate the rest.

3.) Over the years, the hindu stuff started comming back, sometimes only moderately disguised. I had accepted a ''guru'' in 1981, which I was told meant ''teacher''. When M. began calling himself the Master all the time, it made me very uncomfortable. He began to emphasise the importance of himself more and more, and his satsang often sounded arrogant and self-serving. Getting invovled with the Participation Committee forced me to see that I was being used, as a resource to promote lies about M., using K. and Meditation as merely a lure to interest people in becoming devoted to M.

The final straw was the Atlanta Propagation Seminar. It made me ill. It was a dager in my heart. What he was saying and doing was something I would only have associated with a cult like the Moonies. I could not deny I was part of a cult. I felt we were simply being used to brainwash people, and propagation was all about gettting new devotees to increase the base of cash doners.

As ugly as that was, it forced me to face facts. All the ''good'' things I ever got through Knowlege were from my own efforts, and I could keep those and continue growing. No one needs a Master, except lower life forms like domestic animals.

The information on EPO helped me alot, but the real final push was the UGLINESS of what M. and his organization are doing, and how the greed, secrecy and lies are just too great for any reasonable, thinking person to ignore anymore. The biggest obtacle to spreading ANY kind of real knowledge is M. himself.

- Chuck, who is grateful to be enjoying life with both eyes open now, with the help of real friends, not an imaginary one.

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Date: Mon, Mar 26, 2001 at 22:37:16 (GMT)
From: Dermot
Email: None
To: Chuck Sprague
Subject: Chuck..what happened at Atlanta?? nt
Message:
zz
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Date: Mon, Mar 26, 2001 at 22:57:34 (GMT)
From: Pat Conlon
Email: None
To: Dermot
Subject: Atlanta ''Propaganda Seminar'' re-post, Dermot
Message:
Propagation Seminar in Atlanta, 2000

Maharaji addresses an audience of about 80 to 100 people in a hotel ballroom. The Pewks are seated around the edges of three sides and Rev Rawat occupies the fourth side surrounded by an array of corporate CEO-type sales-hype toys: a white drawing board, desk with laptop PC, lectern etc.

He walks around all through the sermon with a felt-tip pen in his hand acting very dotcommy, with one hand in his pocket and (I kid you not) his tongue often in his cheek. He sticks his tongue in the left cheek pouch between his bottom teeth and bottom lip whenever he tells a joke or says something which he thinks is profound or clever. While doing this fifth technique he is pulling a face which I think is meant to be a kooool California smile or perhaps a Bush-lite smirk.

The sermon is about the who, what, how of propagating Knowledge. Examples:

''Should everybody have Knowledge?'' He asks and puts his tongue in his cheek.

Then he looks at audience mischievously smirks and says: ''I see some of you nodding and others shaking their heads.''

He then does not answer the question (as he never does answer any questions) but non-sequiturs into another topic.

He blames the mahatmas for introducing Hinduism and says that it is not fair to blame him for this as some people do because he has said from the beginning that it is not a religion. He speaks as if the audience knows of the criticisms being levelled at him. The audience is after all quite exclusive, mostly rich Pewks and industrial strength church ladies.

He tells them that the most dangerous time to talk about Knowledge is when they are ''feeling that fuzzy feeling, you know the warm fuzzy feeling.'' He then says that it is dangerous because they will introduce concepts about who Maharaji is and that they should have NO concepts about the Master neither about what he is or isn't. And that they do not have to exaggerate his accomplishments or importance even if they are tempted too.

With his last pronouncement he puffs himself up and grins as the audience applauds. All those self-conscious flirtatious attention-getting tactics used to work when he was a chubby pretty little boy but he is now a dumpy, jowly, pompous old fool. The whole act comes off as a spin-control to the share-holders. These Pewks are after all the financial back-bone of the industry in the west. He looks like a huckster trying to impress pyramid scheme suckers that their ''investment'' will pay off big eventually.

Every five minutes or so he walks over to the desk and pushes just one key on the laptop then turns and swivels the pen in the air and says things like: ''Somewhere in Canada there is one guy who has shown the most impressive figures so far. I mean he is bringing more people to Maharaji than anybody else. How does he do it? Well, let me show you.''

He goes to the drawing board. It already has a wobbly circle drawn on it. He draw a small wedge in the circle with his felt-tip pen and says, ''This is how small a part actual propagation, introducing someone to Knowledge for the first time, is. The rest is keeping them there.''

He then wipes the small wedge out and turns to the audience with a flourish. They applaud and he grins from ear to ear having just demonstrated what a wonderful CEO he really is in that he was able to draw a wedge inside a pre-drawn circle and then erase it.

''So how does this guy do it?'' he asks; ''What is he doing right that make his figures the most impressive? Well, apparently this guy has studied every video in the local library and knows them all so well that he knows just exactly the right video to give to the right person to introduce them to Maharaji. That is the way to propagate Knowledge.''

Enough already. I have simply written what I saw not what I was thinking when I saw it. Let it speak for itself. He is truly an embarassment to civilized, intelligent people. It is hard to believe that people like John Horton were in the audience. Well, actually maybe not. I've known plenty of other dumb doctors in my 30 years in that business.

When it is over you come away not having learned anything. He has not answered any specific questions. He has told them that everybody should have Knowledge but that not everybody will be interested. He has said that they should tell people about Knowledge but that they should not talk about it. He has basically again said nothing as usual - hot air.

But the Pewks got the vibe I guess and that got them high and they felt so inspired and then they just wanted to tell everybody the good news when they got home but of course no one really wanted to here about a greedy selfish guru and they couldn't talk about it anyway so it's back to straightening out white table cloths at the video event held every week for the one aspirant who does not always show up.

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Date: Tues, Mar 27, 2001 at 14:24:15 (GMT)
From: Katie H.
Email: None
To: Pat Conlon
Subject: Another ***BEST OF FORUM*** for J-M
Message:
Great post, Pat!
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Date: Tues, Mar 27, 2001 at 01:23:03 (GMT)
From: donner
Email: None
To: Pat Conlon
Subject: Atlanta ''Propaganda Seminar'' re-post, Dermot
Message:
what a great story...nice to know that things haven't changed really since he use to do the same...none answers...amazing guts really.
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Date: Tues, Mar 27, 2001 at 02:19:52 (GMT)
From: Pat Conlon
Email: None
To: donner
Subject: Donner, did you say ''amazing guts'' or
Message:
a helluva pair of nuts? Either he's got a lot of chutzpah (balls in English) or he spends too much time practicing in front of a mirror and has forgotten left from right, right from wrong and good from evil. Needs a reality check.
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Date: Mon, Mar 26, 2001 at 21:09:22 (GMT)
From: Pat Conlon
Email: None
To: La-ex
Subject: Why did we get involved in the first place?(poll)
Message:
1) Got involved because the hippie/commune/revolution thing was falling to pieces and I thought the urug could be the leader who would unite us again in our dream of peace and love.

2) Stayed involved for 28 years because ..... see above.

3) Left because I saw that urug could not do above and actually was doing the opposite; when I saw that the Merry Prankster was Big Brother. Well, actually Big Brother's little brother, the incompetent, lazy drunken one, you know - like Hilly and Billy's embarassing brothers.

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Date: Mon, Mar 26, 2001 at 20:25:20 (GMT)
From: Selene
Email: None
To: La-ex
Subject: Why did we get involved in the first place?(poll)
Message:
1. Idealism, nothing else going on, lack of identity, a boyfriend who I was in love with, group hysteria and brainwashing.

2. Staye dbecause I never questioned it deeply and M made a big 'comback' late in late 80's and 90's and I caught the group get together bug again. Also had an influencial friend who I had really cared about who was a fanatic and I kind of envied her devotion, believed it was her touchstone and her salvation even though she was every bit as fucked up as me.

3. Left because the last two events I went to gave me the creeps because of the premie behavior, and because by 1997 I had changed and didn't NEED the group thing.

but as Jim said, it's hard to pinoint it all. This is an over simplification for me. But it hits the key points.

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Date: Mon, Mar 26, 2001 at 20:38:59 (GMT)
From: Selene
Email: None
To: ps to why I left
Subject: oh and lest I forget, on leaving - THE VIDEOS!
Message:
over and over. Every Sunday afternoon at some library or other place, under the anonymous name of 'World Wide Resources'
And the endless awful videos at the events and I hated them and squirmed in my seat. Learned to always try for an aisle seat. And looking around me and wondering, 'are they seeing something I'm not or are they nuts?'
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Date: Mon, Mar 26, 2001 at 21:13:27 (GMT)
From: Pat Conlon
Email: None
To: Selene
Subject: oh yes THE HALITOSIS AD VIDEOS!
Message:
With flying swans, rippling water and shifting clouds. I always expected them to end by saying: ''This tampon can be inserted without discomfort.''
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Date: Mon, Mar 26, 2001 at 21:23:01 (GMT)
From: Selene
Email: None
To: Pat Conlon
Subject: hahahaha oh god that's funny
Message:
And the saddest funny part about the tampon videos? I was sitting in one of the LB b'day fiascos toward the end, 97 maybe, when he MADE LOTS OF FUN of the nature videos.

I remember thinking well, why did you let them happen then? And also because of the work I do, thinking , these people put their heart and soul into producing these because they love M. (that's what I thought Bazza could maybe correct me or fill me in)
But I do remember thinking that. As IF he didnt' see each and every little detail that was shown at those things and could not have stopped the 'swans' that were being presented as late as 96.

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Date: Mon, Mar 26, 2001 at 21:41:32 (GMT)
From: Pat Conlon
Email: None
To: Selene
Subject: He defuses errors by making pre-emptive jokes NT
Message:
j
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Date: Mon, Mar 26, 2001 at 19:51:42 (GMT)
From: AJW
Email: None
To: La-ex
Subject: I got involved because...
Message:
Hi La-ex

Here's my two guilders worth.

Why did I get involved in the first place?

1. Brains scrambled on acid.
2. Timothy Leary said we all need a guru.
3. The Beatles and Rollings Stones had one, why shouldn't I?
4. Think I'm smart but can be very stupid.
5. Fate
6. Bad Karma
7. Bad Luck.

Why did I stay so long?

1. A big fish in a little puddle.
2. Fame and power.
3. I liked singing Arti.
4. Think I'm smart but can be very stupid.
5. We'd sold our house to move into the Ashram, and hence had nowhere to live.
6. Couldn't think of anything better to do.
7. I had faith.
8. I was brainwashed.
9. I wanted to devote my life to the God I'd seen on acid.
10. I like vegetarian food.

What was the final straw that made me leave?

It had to be the premie security guard throwing a mother and tiny baby out of a warm dry hall, into an awful rainstorm, 'because it was programme policy.'

Anth drippety dooh-dah.

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Date: Mon, Mar 26, 2001 at 19:47:37 (GMT)
From: Dermot
Email: None
To: La-ex
Subject: Here ya go mate ...123
Message:
1.Bit burnt out from too much acid.....succeptible to the charms ofsome dope smoking premie friends 'mind blowing cosmic satsang'.......then the Mission took control and finished off the brain washing.

2.Because I'm the worlds biggest fucking chump.

3.left and returned many times from 70s to 90s but I suppose the 'final straw', funnily enough was 'Rawts trinket divine sales bazaar' at longbeach 96. Though that certainly wasnt the all defining motivating trigger......it just happened to be the 'final straw'

Cheers

Dermot

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Date: Mon, Mar 26, 2001 at 21:16:56 (GMT)
From: Pat Conlon
Email: None
To: Dermot
Subject: Twins separated at birth, Dermot
Message:
You said: ''....left and returned many times from 70s to 90s but I suppose the 'final straw', funnily enough was 'Rawts trinket divine sales bazaar' at longbeach 96.''

Me too left and went back. That divine trinket sale in that huge hall certainly was more than a big drip - more like a mini tsunami.

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Date: Mon, Mar 26, 2001 at 21:44:16 (GMT)
From: Dermot
Email: None
To: Pat Conlon
Subject: Pat....another thing bout that trinket stall
Message:
Afriend of mine who I've lost touch ....but he and his wife were avid sincere premies....but more into feeling and expressing love as opposed to fanatical cultist madness.....turned to me at one point and said ' I feel like I'm in a cult'. I was so surprised because it was so out of character for him to say something like that.

Lost touch with them now ......maybe they are still premies.....dunno.

But wasnt it just fucking over the top in that hall hahahhaha just blatant commercial greed and exploitation run riot hahhaha

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Date: Mon, Mar 26, 2001 at 17:15:22 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: La-ex
Subject: Not so easy, LAX
Message:
You're going to get two different kinds of answers. There are the answers like 'I was interested in .....' 'so when my friend invited me to ......'

Straightforward and really, when you think of it, not that interesting. I mean, we all pretty much know that shit anyway.

But then you're going to get all sorts of psychological theories too. Stuff like 'I got knowledge because I was looking for the immediacy I never had with my real father ....' or 'I had such low self-esteem, coming as I did from an entirely codependent family, that I needed a firewall from the real world ...'

What are you looking for?

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Date: Wed, Mar 28, 2001 at 03:10:12 (GMT)
From: Mercedes
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Jim you have a real problem...
Message:
yeah...I think you need a shrink.
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Date: Wed, Mar 28, 2001 at 16:42:41 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Mercedes
Subject: Well that's nice! Why do you say that?
Message:
What are you talking about? Do I need a shrink to help me in my Recovery? Please, Mercedes, tell me about it.

(This should be funny)

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Date: Mon, Mar 26, 2001 at 23:54:15 (GMT)
From: la-ex
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Not so easy, LAX/the second one, Jim.
Message:
I wasn't looking for the mundane answer, like 'my friend brought me to the program'....

More like your second answer...the personal reasons for getting involved...things you might understand now, but didn't see then...the 'inner story'(sorry if I sound like Tim Gallwey)...

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Date: Mon, Mar 26, 2001 at 19:55:28 (GMT)
From: AJW
Email: None
To: Jimstrodamus
Subject: Not so easy, LAX
Message:
I didn't think you were into all that predicting the future stuff Jim.

So come on, why did you get involved? Why did you stay? What was the final straw?

Anth the sarcy echo.

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Date: Tues, Mar 27, 2001 at 01:37:22 (GMT)
From: donner
Email: None
To: AJW
Subject: Not so easy, LAX
Message:
good catch anth!
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Date: Mon, Mar 26, 2001 at 21:32:16 (GMT)
From: Lesley
Email: None
To: AJW
Subject: okey dokey, LAX
Message:
1. the one reason that stands out above all others is that I simply did not understand that a person could be deluded. I instinctively was attracted to and trusted the premie I met and it did not occur to me to question whether he knew what he was talking about because of his obvious sincerity. Though I was not brought up a catholic, again, it simply did not occur to me that god and jesus were in the same category as santa claus, so the story fitted my preconditioning.

2. Darshan has nothing to do with 'divine love', it is our own very human emotions being manipulated.

3. I realised I was deluded, and then I realised why, bye bye no more listening at the feet of the master for me.

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Date: Mon, Mar 26, 2001 at 21:36:41 (GMT)
From: Selene
Email: None
To: Lesley
Subject: the revisionism
Message:
I wanted to add that to my leaving reasons but have already added to it once.
How arrogant he is, to think that those of us who fell for one con would just shift gears, smirk amongst ourselves about his business savvy, and stick around for more under a new image?
Many have though.
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Date: Mon, Mar 26, 2001 at 21:48:22 (GMT)
From: Dermot
Email: None
To: Selene
Subject: Selene it's 1-3 not 1-100 -:)) (nt)
Message:
zz
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Date: Mon, Mar 26, 2001 at 21:55:15 (GMT)
From: Selene
Email: None
To: Dermot
Subject: ok!! I must stop I know
Message:
I have 63 conferences to delete. Time to try to work on work.
But the revisionism and watching the rationalizations was a big drip for me.
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Date: Mon, Mar 26, 2001 at 22:07:53 (GMT)
From: Dermot
Email: None
To: Selene
Subject: ok!! I must stop I know
Message:
Selene.....I was going to do some work ( urgent work as well ) this evening and haven't done a thing but read the forum ......I'm gonna have a break till the week-end or I'll be living in a cardboard box asking buddy for a dime -:)
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Date: Mon, Mar 26, 2001 at 16:59:45 (GMT)
From: Richard
Email: None
To: La-ex
Subject: Great questions La-ex. Here are my reasons.
Message:
I spent 3 days writing my soon to be published Journey so condensing will be a challenge but here goes.

1)Why I got involved with M in the first place?

Wanting to transcend my mundane existence. > Radical politics. > Awakening via psychtropic drugs and wanting to go beyond that. > Yoga. > Autobiography of a Yogi. > Be Here Now. > Stranger in a Strange Land, etc. > The word from a trusted source that Sat Guru had come.

2)Also, why did I stay for as long as I did?

Darshan and holy breath at Montrose provided unexplainable, formerly unattained conciousness (non-ordinary / transcendant experiences). The need to be part of a noble cause = save humanity. Acknowledgement and being valued for my skills. Need to be 'special'. Group agreement.

3)Also, what was the 'final straw' for me that led me to leave?

Several years of body/emotional work = group work, rebirthing/breathing, losing weight. Through all that I gained an inner authority that led me to reject M as an authoritarian bully. Came to a head at a 1987 knowledge review with M where he flippantly said 'you know you don't have to practice knowledge' - a precursor of the more arrogant 'if you don't like knowledge just walk'. I felt it cut through me like a spear to the solar plexus and realized I had being believing I HAD TO practice knowledge. At that point I decided to not totally reject M&K but to 'choose' it if I wanted it again. After choosing a 1994 nostalgic revisit to M&K I again rejected it as a seductively authoritarian trip.

4)Why do I participate on this forum? (this dovetails nicely with the other questions)

To help myself reclaim the positive aspects of the '1972 Richard' and lose the dependant aspects that needed the Perfect Authoritarian. To find out more about why I got involved. To share ideas and information with the other sincere seekers of truth. Help give current devotees a reasonable option.

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Date: Tues, Mar 27, 2001 at 01:04:14 (GMT)
From: michael donner
Email: None
To: Richard
Subject: Great questions La-ex. Here are my reasons.
Message:
my top two are intertwined some. to save the world via a combination of spiritualism and socialism (cum DUO, ashrams/collectives, etc). the catholic part of me regarded being an apostle of the lord as the highest calling of a human. so the combination offered by m was powerful as it played into those predispositions. he was a young (fitting some prophecies), charismatic leader, combining universal type spritualism and allowing me to play out my apostle need to help bring about a kingdom of heaven on earth. hooked for a long time.

to stay on was another matter. each new incarnation gave hope that my first hit of m was perhaps true afterall. leaving worship to become a humanitarian leader..no, backsliding again into devotion. no, beginning to finally create western initiators to really begin to spread knowledge and finally bring peace to all corners. no, back to devotion to him so he removed the intermediaries. oh, the part about part-time instructors got me again from 85 -87...real community based family men and women who could relate to the local folks...yes, that was the model that might just work...no, back to devotion and worship and removing the local intermediaries.

michael still a recovering ex-catholic, once a catholic always a recovering ex catholic.

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Date: Tues, Mar 27, 2001 at 02:36:56 (GMT)
From: Selene
Email: None
To: michael donner
Subject: once a catholic always a recovering ex catholic
Message:
That is truly disturbing, on top of just reading Jim's post below about being taught it was ok to be in groups but not just alone with another, not just 2.
I do not remember being taught that, but that's the point in a way, I don't remember a LOT of what I was taught but I will always remember the sense of guilt and being BAD that accompanied those lessons, for me 3 times a week after school in the Church basement and Saturday mronings at the 'Parish' . we were primed for M's shit.
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Date: Tues, Mar 27, 2001 at 02:03:12 (GMT)
From: Dermot
Email: None
To: michael donner
Subject: Great questions La-ex. Here are my reasons.
Message:
haha that back and forth stuff was funny. Yup ....another ex-catholic here......my 81 yo ma is still praying for my soul.....'faith of our fathers holy faith , we will be true to you till death' .....do they sing that in American catholic churches?

PS no offence meant when I've been spouting off about PAMS ....been prettty gung ho this evening -:))

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Date: Tues, Mar 27, 2001 at 01:33:11 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: michael donner
Subject: A close catholic / maharaji cult parallel
Message:
Hi Michael,

A few years ago someone showed me a book he had from when he was a young, catholic kid in Quebec. It was filled with all sorts of proscriptions as you, a catholic, might imagine (and which I'd describe better but I can't recall specifically). One stood out, one I do remember: kids were prohibited from hanging out in two's. Three or more was okay but two's were out. Why? Because, as the book frankly, explained, it was too easy for doubts to arise and circulate in a dialogue between two people than in larger groups. I dunno, that really struck me as the kind of mind control we wrestled with. I think the book was for some sort of catholic summer school or camp or something.

Jim
In Denial

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Date: Tues, Mar 27, 2001 at 03:57:08 (GMT)
From: Pat the Fat Fag
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: That also prevented fooling around
Message:
which many little catholic school boys did - especially in my boarding school and also later big boys did in the monastery.

It was the cruelty and sadism of my teachers (I was beaten every night for 3 months when I first went to boarding school by a vicious Quebecois Marist Brother ''to break my will) which left a scar for quite some time.

Seem to be hell of a lot of ex-catholics here. Chuck who was raised protestant never quite got the hang of the Hindu drag and incense juju like I did.

Catholics were ripe for the plucking after all that mystical mumbo-jumbo and ritual theatricality and mind-boggling beliefs such as transubstantiation, the ascension, the assumption and the immaculate conception which were Holy Dogma! Ta-da!

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Date: Wed, Mar 28, 2001 at 03:25:57 (GMT)
From: Mercedes
Email: None
To: La Ex
Subject: Why from alpha to omega
Message:
I was a gullible 18 year old. No self esteem (sorry Jim), idealistic. I was dazzled by the incense and satsang and altars (yeap recovering catholic alright).
Stayed because I had no where else to go, family had outcasted me and had no inner strengh. Won't go into detail suffice it to say I experienced a lot of abuse and suffered from that syndrome so I stayed.
left once, when I got married, when divorced I felt being called again. It was the safety of the old known stuff.
Straw that broke the cammel's back: started with the Atlanta video, he was so arrogant, still thought it was my critical mind.
Yeah therapy and after Oxnard I came in contact with this website. So I left, walked, good bye baby.
There you have it in a nutshell.
Mercedes
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Date: Wed, Mar 28, 2001 at 04:01:37 (GMT)
From: Pat Conlon
Email: None
To: Mercedes
Subject: I'm glad I didn't throw away that Atlanta video
Message:
It is priceless. It was also the final straw for me. It was obvious that he was insincere and narcissistic.
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Date: Mon, Mar 26, 2001 at 14:34:53 (GMT)
From: Salam
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: So Russel won an Oscar....ot
Message:
so what? he is a boofhead.(bahh cerise)

What about Crouching Tiger. What a load of shit. Friggin flying chineese bull crap. Bet you the whole thing is rigged by the chineese.

Can't belive how nice and sweet the Americans are. Oh, mushy mushy. If everyone in that hall contributed the income of on film only, am sure the world will be in a better shape.

All in all I think rawat should be there (wad you mean, he is a shitty actor?). But because I did not see him, he could have been sucking at

Salam@rawatsucks.orgy

Good night, this has been a wonderful show, see you later, good night, god bless (shut up Salam).

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Date: Mon, Mar 26, 2001 at 17:09:22 (GMT)
From: Joe
Email: None
To: Salam
Subject: So Russel won an Oscar....ot
Message:
Salam,

We in the USA do not have a royal family, so Hollywood celebrities are our royalty. The Oscars are self-congratulatory, gaudy, and really stupid. But it can be wonderful entertainment to either root for you faves or make fun of everyone. It's also known as the gay superbowl. Lots of people I know dressed up in tuxes, paid $100 per person and went to Oscar parties that raise money for all kinds of things.

I did notice that Jennifer Lopez once again wants to bare her body on national television. This time it was her breasts and the networks carefully relegated her to head shots. But Oh, La publicite! Glad Traffic won some awards, partly because it was one of the few films I saw. I liked Erin Brockovitch though.

BTW, this year the Oscars were held at Shriner Auditorium, this really gaudy theater from the 30s. In 1977, Maharaji held his birthday party program there. (Just a little trivia on a Monday morning.)

Do you Aussies watch the show live? Isn't it in the middle of the afternoon in Australia, on a workday?

Another BTW, Dylan sang his nominated song and accepted an oscar live from Sydney. Am I the only one who likes Dylan looks like Salvador Dali in his old age?

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Date: Tues, Mar 27, 2001 at 06:56:20 (GMT)
From: A newcomer
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: So Russel won an Oscar....ot
Message:
Joe,
Exactly my thoughts....Bob Dylan looking like Salvador Dali. He's sporting a miniature 'Dali' moustache. And the gauntness!! I'm going to see him on Friday night. Can't wait!!
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Date: Tues, Mar 27, 2001 at 04:30:17 (GMT)
From: TD
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: I thought Bob Dylan looked like Vincent Price....
Message:
Joe, you'll be glad to know that me and my flatmate had a special Oscars soiree at our place where we drank lots, ate food and paid out on everyone. Rip 'em to shreds coz they have more money and are more beautiful than us.... anyway, it's a challenge to not hear the news all day in Oz so that you can watched the delayed telecast without knowing who won....

Surprised that Russ won. I wanted Geoffrey Rush to win. Traffic was brilliant.

Kirstie

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Date: Mon, Mar 26, 2001 at 20:08:20 (GMT)
From: Richard
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: Joe it was Hansi's birthday party
Message:
I thought of that too last night. I rode non-stop from Denver to LA in the back of a pickup truck camper with 6 people. I slept throughout the entire program. Hey Hansi - we love you man!
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Date: Mon, Mar 26, 2001 at 17:17:10 (GMT)
From: Joe
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: The Razzies
Message:
This is the Oscar alternative, the worst movie awards called the 'Razzies', that also this past weekend:

It's Official: ‘BATTLEFIELD EARTH’ Is Tied With
‘SHOWGIRLS’ as RAZZIES’ All-Time WORST!
When a movie sweeps Tinsel Town’s Tackiest Trophy Derby, should it be considered a “Winning” Streak or a LOSING Streak? That’s just one of the questions the makers of the Big Budget Sci Fi Fiasco BATTLEFIELD EARTH will be asking themselves once they hear what “Won” at The 21st Annual Golden Raspberry (‘RAZZIE’) Awards. Their film, based on a best-selling novel by Scientology founder L. Ron Hubbard and starring an unrecognizable John Travolta as a Rasta-Haired, Yellow-Toothed, Cackling Psychotic Alien, took home spray-painted gold trophies in seven of the nine categories Dis-Honored in ceremonies held the traditional Day BEFORE the 73rd Annual Academy Awards® at the Radisson-Huntley Hotel’s Garden Room in Santa Monica, California.

Among the $2.49 statuettes claimed by BATTLEFIELD were: Travolta as Worst Actor, his wife Kelly Preston (as a six-foot-tongued alien secretary!) for Worst Supporting Actress, his co-star Barry Pepper as Worst Supporting Actor (in the role Travolta had wanted to play when he first started pitching the project nearly 20 years ago), Roger Christian for Worst Director, Worst Screenplay (Corey Mandell and J.D. Shapiro, based on Hubbard’s Novel) Worst Screen Couple (“Travolta and Anyone Sharing the Screen with Him!”) and, of course, Worst Picture. EARTH’s seven statuettes pull it into a dead-even tie with All-Time RAZZIE Champion SHOWGIRLS (Which won Worst Picture of the Decade at last year’s 20th Annual RAZZIE Awards).

The only two awards NOT given to BATTLEFIELD were in categories where it wasn’t even nominated: Worst Actress of 2000 went to last year’s Worst Actress of the Century “Winner” Madonna as a Single Mom fighting for custody of her child in The Ham-Fisted Melodramatic Ham-Fest THE NEXT BEST THING. Worst Remake or Sequel was BOOK OF SHADOWS: BLAIR WITCH, TOO, which grossed less than $30 million as the follow-up to last year’s $140+ million-grosser THE BLAIR WITCH PROJECT.

“Winners” were determined by mailing ballots to some 535 GRAF Members throughout 35 U.S. states and a dozen foreign countries. The actual award, a golf-ball-sized raspberry atop a mangled Super 8 film reel spray-painted gold, was designed by RAZZIE Founder John Wilson, a graduate of the UCLA Motion Picture/TV Department and author of EVERYTHING I KNOW I LEARNED AT THE MOVIES. As was the case 96.7% of the time in the previous 20 years, actual “Winners” were NOT expected to attend or make overlong thank you speeches…

For more info on the RAZZIE Awards, or to arrange in interview with RAZZIE Founder Wilson, please contact Headberry@razzies.com

21st Annual Golden Raspberry (RAZZIE) Award “Winners”

WORST Picture:
BATTLEFIELD EARTH (Warner Bros.) Elie Samaha, Jonathan D. Krane and John Travolta, Producers

WORST Actor:
John Travolta#@/BATTLEFIELD EARTH and LUCKY NUMBERS (Paramount)

WORST Actress:
Madonna* /THE NEXT BEST THING (Paramount)

WORST Screen Couple:
John Travolta and Anyone Sharing the Screen with Him BATTLEFIELD EARTH

WORST Supporting Actress:
Kelly Preston/BATTLEFIELD EARTH

WORST Supporting Actor:
Barry Pepper/BATTLEFIELD EARTH

WORST Remake or Sequel:
BOOK OF SHADOWS/BLAIR WITCH 2 (Artisan Entertainment) Bill Carraro, Producer.

WORST Director:
Roger Christian/BATTLEFIELD EARTH

WORST Screenplay:
BATTLEFIELD EARTH Screenplay by Corey Mandell and J.D. Shapiro, based on the Novel by L. Ron Hubbard

“WINS” PER PICTURE:

BATTLEFIELD EARTH – 7 RAZZIES (Worst Picture, Actor, Screen Couple, Supporting Actor, Supporting Actress, Director and Screenplay) Tying with the All-Time Record!

BOOK OF SHADOWS: BLAIR WITCH 2 – 1 RAZZIE (Worst Remake or Sequel)

THE NEXT BEST THING – 1 RAZZIE (Worst Actress/Madonna)

KEY: * Denotes Previous RAZZIE “Winner”;
# Denotes Previous RAZZIE Nominee;
@ Denotes Previous OSCAR® Nominee.

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Date: Mon, Mar 26, 2001 at 22:15:53 (GMT)
From: salam
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: hey joe
Message:
I can't belive you spent so much energy posting this stuff, I will be dead before I do it.
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Date: Mon, Mar 26, 2001 at 18:47:35 (GMT)
From: Jerry
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: Battlefield Earth
Message:
Now, I saw Battlefield Earth, and the word that comes to mind is 'cheezy', for some reason, in describing it. But, to be honest, I found the movie entertaining, and I know I'm not the only one who did. I also wouldn't be surprised if down the road it became a cult classic. It has that kind of flare.

Y'know?

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Date: Mon, Mar 26, 2001 at 17:25:18 (GMT)
From: Selene
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: Blair Witch was a sequel?
Message:
That's weird. I saw that one, ho hum.

I haven't seen Battlefield but someone who did said he thought he could see a lot of 'Scientology' like concepts sprinkled about in the movie. Glad it won it's just rewared.

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Date: Mon, Mar 26, 2001 at 17:54:28 (GMT)
From: Joe
Email: None
To: Selene
Subject: Blair Witch 'TOO' was a sequel...
Message:
I think the first one was 'Blair Witch Project' and the sequel was 'Blair Witch Too.'

I didn't see either one, but the sequel was what got the 'worst' award.

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Date: Mon, Mar 26, 2001 at 18:06:13 (GMT)
From: Monmot
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: Blair Witch 2: Book of Shadows
Message:
I went to the premiere of that one...the movie was the pits. The party afterward was even worse. Artisan was just trying to cash in on the first one. I don't like horror flix anyway, but I was obligated to go...
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Date: Mon, Mar 26, 2001 at 03:51:33 (GMT)
From: Richard
Email: None
To: Maharaji
Subject: Maharaji, if you are reading, here's your speech.
Message:
>>>>>This is a repost fom inactive but I think it's appropriate>>>>>>

Wild appluase ....................................

Thank you, thank you for that warm and enthusiastic welcome. I want to take a
moment to thank all of you who have contributed so much to making this event unfold
so wonderfully. (read off list of names of event team) It has always been the
energies of people like you that these events have ever happened. Thank you Erika for
that beautiful music we've all listening to, you are truly talented. That letter you wrote
to me has had an unexpected impact on me.

I want you to know how much I appreciate all of you coming here on such short notice
to hear me speak. It means so much to me that you are interested in my philosophy. I
am truly touched and thank you from my heart. But this will be the final gathering like
this ever.

As you can see, I've done away with the stage and chair. It just isn't right anymore for
me to sit so far above you all. It is I who should sit below you. As a dear former premie,
Sir David Simpkiss, has said 'I walk amongst saints'. Sir Dave, you are so right and I
was so wrong. And you are all truly saints to have put up with my arrogance and
tirades for so many long years and all the while never losing the revolutionary zeal you
brought to the party.

Over the years, many of you have contributed your time, your love, your careers, your
families, your money and your lives so that myself and my family could live a life of
luxury. Today that all changes. I have instructed my former loyal counsel Michael
Dettmers to liquidate all of my resources and set up a trust fund to be used however
you all see fit. The Malibu house will be turned over to the foundation to be used as a
counseling and retreat center for those to who I've caused damage. I have begged
Michael Donner to organize all of the past instructors as counselors for this center if
they are interested. The house, by the way is a remarkable achievement by so many
dedicated crafts people and I want to personally thank them now (read list of those
who built house).

I will be returning to India to live in a small house near the Ganges. There I plan to
spend my time following the path my father gave to me. For once, I'm going to practice
the knowledge that he showed me. In time I hope to reconcile with my brothers and
beg their forgiveness for violating the trust they placed in me. And once I get out of
substance abuse recovery, I will put my flight training to good use by volunteering with
Doctors Without Borders, transporting people in need of medical treatment. Perhaps
on trips back to the US I'll get to visit Marolyn and my children if they will allow it.

In the big-ning, when I first came to London, I was so full of inspiration and possibility.
Many of you greeted me there with so much love and dedication and I want you to
know I truly appreciated that. I was too young though and not disciplined and frankly, I
squandered that love and dedication. And I betrayed the mandate my father gave me
to bring peace to the world. I know I promised you the moon and when I realized it was
not possible, I could not face telling you the truth, until now. I took the coward's path
and found solace in alcohol abuse at first, then material possessions and women.
Today, I stand before you and say I am an alcoholic, a rageaholic and I am addicted to
having power over others because I am myself powerless. I am getting treatment for
these faults and I hope you can forgive me. Many never will and I will live with that. But
truly, I am sorry.

So now, I will stand here and if you have anything you would like to say to me, please
do. Thank you.

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Date: Tues, Mar 27, 2001 at 14:04:29 (GMT)
From: Katie H.
Email: None
To: Richard
Subject: For J-M ****BEST OF FORUM****
Message:
The speech we'd like to hear M give (as written by Richard).

Thanks, Richard, BTW - not sure if I told you that before.

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Date: Mon, Mar 26, 2001 at 19:16:32 (GMT)
From: Joe
Email: None
To: Richard
Subject: Well done, Richard
Message:
Great post. Thanks.
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Date: Mon, Mar 26, 2001 at 04:22:41 (GMT)
From: Pat Conlon
Email: None
To: Richard
Subject: Just as good second time around
Message:
Your imaginary Miragey says: So now, I will stand here and if you have anything you would like to say to me, please
do. Thank you.

Hey, Prem, fancy a pint at the pub? But only if you wear your full Krishna drag. The darts team would love to see you do your wobble dance.

I know, Richard, I probably ruined the serious intent of your post. But, ever since I left the cult, I can't stop laughing.

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Date: Mon, Mar 26, 2001 at 05:16:50 (GMT)
From: la-ex
Email: None
To: Richard
Subject: Richard, that letter is so damn good it should...
Message:
of course be sent to M.
It would be so appropriate for him to say something like that,and of course we all know it will never happen...

But your letter is wonderfully written and very heart felt,and makes so much sense...

It would be nice for all lurkers to read it, just because it is SO different than anything he would ever say, but SHOULD say...

It might get a few people thinking and feeling differently...

Nice work, again...

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Date: Mon, Mar 26, 2001 at 04:42:28 (GMT)
From: donner
Email: None
To: Pat Conlon
Subject: Just as good second time around
Message:
excellent bravo
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Date: Mon, Mar 26, 2001 at 05:36:43 (GMT)
From: janet
Email: None
To: donner and all
Subject: i say we all send it, to every devotee we know
Message:
the more places it pops up, the more he will be forced to address it. it wil become part of the lore like all the other stories we have heard and traded these many years. the subconscious asorbs everything and forgets nothing.
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Date: Mon, Mar 26, 2001 at 17:32:46 (GMT)
From: Katie Darling
Email: None
To: janet
Subject: Brilliant
Message:
Yes, it is a really good thing to keep repeating this.

It's so wonderfully disorienting to imagine MJ saying such a thing. Words have a lot of power, and just reading this, and rereading this, seems to move things around a bit. It opens up possibilities inside, and it doesn't matter at all if he says it or not - our subconscious may not even know the difference.

Thanks dude.

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Date: Mon, Mar 26, 2001 at 23:22:42 (GMT)
From: moldy warp
Email: None
To: Janet and Katie Darling
Subject: Ditto Brilliant nt
Message:
X
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Date: Mon, Mar 26, 2001 at 02:51:22 (GMT)
From: Jean-Michel
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: Is it true that BaiJi' Sapuranands' sister?
Message:
Is m's Indian cook actually Sampuranand's sister?

From what I understand, Sampuranand's family are the one who've helped m to start the whole Indian game again after the family split in the late 70s, and that Rawat is very much endebted towards them. True ?

Jean-Michel, still trying to straighten the Indian records .....

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Date: Mon, Mar 26, 2001 at 04:07:23 (GMT)
From: Mercedes
Email: None
To: Jean-Michel
Subject: Is it true that BaiJi' Sapuranands' sister?
Message:
Jean Michel I don't know whether she is Sampu's sister what I know is that she is impossible to do service with. She puts everybody down, is mean to people. She is not a nice person. This from a reliable source.
Mercedes
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Date: Mon, Mar 26, 2001 at 04:48:21 (GMT)
From: donner
Email: None
To: jean-michel
Subject: Is it true that BaiJi' Sapuranands' sister?
Message:
i do not think so...but donot know for sure...sampu was with m;'s father and took m under his wing after the death of father...and simply chose the 'right' side during the family feud. he has been loayal from the beginning and m could always count on him during, before and after to keep things going in india for him...sampu use to beg to come and stay in the west and be with m always...but m needed him to handle india for him...and as the loyal servant he did whatever bidding was required in both india and the west...sometimes handling troublesome mahatmas in the west for m.

and mercedes is completely correct, bai ji was a very difficult person to work with/for, because you never worked with bai ji, only for her.

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Date: Mon, Mar 26, 2001 at 07:33:43 (GMT)
From: Jean-Michel
Email: None
To: donner
Subject: Trouble with Sampu's family
Message:
I've heard from very reliable sources in India, that Sampu's got of lever in India, and that premies have a lot to complain about Sampu (and his associates' - namely Devanand in Nepal) ethics.

Sampu's is the head of criminal traffic between Nepal and Bombay's prostitutes houses, all of this using the Delhi ashram as an intermediate location. Many premies are aware of this fact, and can't report it to m because of the fear they have from Sampu.

I know of an instance of a person m knows personally, who can't report it, when he'd like to, because he'd have to be alone with him to do so. The reason why that person is scared is that he/she gave all his/her possessions to m long time ago, has a very small income, and is very scared of what will happen if he/she's rejected.

I know of another person who knows a lot about all this, and would like to leave m and the whole scene altogether. He/she's been very much disturbed by Sampu's misbehavior, and can't live because he/she's so scared of the consequences. That person doesn't have any material problem and could live by him/herself, but has been living in fear for many years because of what he/she knows.

Can anybody understand the situation, and maybe openly
share some more information ?

Mr Rawat ? I know you may read this ! Are you going to take responsibility over this ? Glen ? Would you report this to your master ?

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Date: Tues, Mar 27, 2001 at 01:01:05 (GMT)
From: Bin Liner
Email: patrick@dorrityp.freeserve.co.uk
To: Jean-Michel
Subject: This is absolutely OUTRAGIOUS
Message:

I can certainly understand the situation , although I know nothing of it .

The people this needs to be taken up with are NOT rawat & his associates , but those who may be in a position to put this pimp behind bars.

I am prepared to invest time in finding out who they may be .

Send me an e mail if you think I can help .

All the best.

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Date: Tues, Mar 27, 2001 at 13:32:31 (GMT)
From: Kap
Email: qwerty@pdai.com
To: all
Subject: This is absolutely OUTRAGIOUS
Message:
Maybe now someone will beleive me.(about the two Mahatmas coming to my house to kill me ).I should not have been ridiculed for speaking the truth.
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Date: Mon, Mar 26, 2001 at 20:21:02 (GMT)
From: Pat Conlon
Email: None
To: Jean-Michel
Subject: Ilegal money export by South African Indian premie
Message:
Rawat won't do anything about it because he knows about it already and is probably taking a cut of the filthy lucre. The Malibu Mob has tentacles in a lot of shady deals.

When I lived in South Africa, the head of DLM, Bhoolabai, was running a scheme to illegally take money out of South Africa because there were restrictions on the amount of money one could export. It gave me the creeps but I turned a blind eye to it because it benefitted me.

This is how it worked: The trusted inner cadre of premies would get free plane tickets to a festival in Europe or USA if they agreed to carry travellers checks which they would then hand over to a courier overseas when they landed. We also received some traveller's checks for ourselves. I financed all my trips abroad this way.

We would meet in a sleazy little office in downtown Johannesburg where all these creepy gangsters would issue you with plane tickets and checks. Then when you arrived at the other end you would meet up in a hotel room with the courier and sign the checks and hand them over. They were then deposited into a Swiss bank account.

I know that some of this money was money that was collected for and earmarked for Rawat (money donated by premies after kissing the sacred darshan juju slippers) and some of it was for Bhoolabai and his sleazy cronies' own Swiss accounts.

I finally could not take it anymore and resigned and left the ashram because of a run in I had with Bhoolabai about the misuse of other funds. I only just remembered this now. I think I must have deliberately developed amnesia about it in order to soothe my own conscience. I was extremely cultivated in those days and a trusted CC.

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Date: Mon, Mar 26, 2001 at 15:51:39 (GMT)
From: la-ex
Email: None
To: Jean-Michel
Subject: WOW!!! JM,do Anth's journalists know about this?
Message:
Can this be verified, and possibly reported to some of the sources that Anth has reported will be coming out with stories in the near future?
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Date: Mon, Mar 26, 2001 at 16:33:32 (GMT)
From: Jean-Michel
Email: None
To: la-ex
Subject: Soon enough if m/EV doesn't react appropriately
Message:
Let's see what unfolds .....
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Date: Mon, Mar 26, 2001 at 15:28:31 (GMT)
From: Mercedes
Email: None
To: Jean-Michel
Subject: criminal activity
Message:
Jean-Michel this is extremely serious. I hope that some how it gets exposed and the criminal activity stops.
Mercedes
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Date: Mon, Mar 26, 2001 at 15:47:29 (GMT)
From: Jean-Michel
Email: None
To: Mercedes
Subject: It IS !!!! and must stop
Message:
Too many premies and mahatmas are now aware of this.

The shame is that they're so scared of Sampuranand they can't complain to Rawat, fearing Sampu's retaliation.

I'm sure there are honest persons there who can do something about this.

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Date: Mon, Mar 26, 2001 at 13:15:16 (GMT)
From: Jean-Michel
Email: jmkahn@club-internet.fr
To: Jean-Michel
Subject: Mr Rawat? Official representative? Glen Whittaker?
Message:
This is an official request.

There are people I know and YOU personally know who would like to complain to YOU personally about Mr Sampuranand's misbehavior. These people are very much scared because of their present position and their relationship with Mr Sampuranand, and they don't want to jeopardize their present situation because of this. These people still trust you completely, and expect a lot from you regarding this issue.

Would you care emailing me? This will be kept confidential, IF you behave in a responsible manner.

There are many women who have been (and are in the process of being) victimized by this man and his accomplices, and this HAS TO stop.

You have every authority to do so, nobody else does for the moment.

Sincerely

Jean-Michel Kahn

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Date: Mon, Mar 26, 2001 at 02:13:57 (GMT)
From: Gary Epton
Email: epton@magma.ca
To: Everyone
Subject: Miragey
Message:
Howdy everyone:

I've been monitoring this site recently and since Mssrs. Dettmers and Donner have come forward with their first hand revelations of what m was really like in private I have found it truly liberating to confirm certain suspicions regarding his true nature. I've been harbouring anger and resentment towards m since the ashrams closed for the second time. It was handled with such callous disregard - no love, no respect, no responsibility, that I have never really gotten over it even though I continue to derive benefit from the meditation techniques. This separation of m from k is truly important to me because I was one of those confused beings who also tried to interpret this as a lila - in short: the ashram was a gift to allow me to focus entirely on m and k - he decided it had it's run and now I'm like a bird being kicked out of the nest. Time to fly.
I was there for his first impromptu get-together at his newly acquired land in Argentina - Tierra del amour - and I was sitting listening to a satsang when he started talking about this premie who kept pestering him with questions about the ashram - he suddenly became quite angry and announced for all to hear that this premie should just stick his head in a toilet and flush it! I was shocked. Not to belabour a point that has been talked about ad nauseum in this forum, but this is not about the appropriateness of closing the ashrams - there was every 'good' reason from the standpoint of presenting k in the west to financial liabilities with aging premies, etc. - this was about love, respect and taking responsibility. Through this forum I have learned about similar travesties with DECA, with the initiators, with his womanizing, and lack of concern about Jagdeo. What has emerged is a picture of a man who refuses to take responsibility - continues to blame others for problems within his organization. A man who while preaching that by his grace one could receive the keys to the kingdom of heaven while he himself was getting loaded, taking advantage of women and generally enriching himself on the backs of our labour. I would like to thank those who are responsible for putting this forum together so that this information can be available to people like me so I can without fear and confusion put to rest this unfortunate chapter in my life.

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Date: Mon, Mar 26, 2001 at 07:25:48 (GMT)
From: Brian Smith
Email: None
To: Gary Epton
Subject: Nice post Gary, and welcome aboard
Message:
You sound like you have been through it all and go back a long way. It is really good to hear from someone (forgive me for assuming) like yourself who has probably simmered for years under the surface from all of the accumulated unresolved issues that were inflicted upon you by m and the cult. If so it is quite the common condition that accompanies many here.

I sense that you have put a lot of thought into this and I am glad to see you post so openly and honestly, this is a great attitude to start with. I commend you for it.

You bring a lot to the table here and I hope to hear more from you in the future, please continue to post and take the steps to freedom and release. There really aren't any clear cut steps, or set time frame. Simply sharing your experiences and concerns openly with others who have gone through the same thing seems to bring forth the cleansing process as needed quite naturally.

It is an individual thing supported by a collective comittment to restore our free will and dignity by dispelling the illusions of m and the cult.

It all starts to make sense when we get the blinders off and see what is really going on and remove the cult muzzle and speak our thoughts freely once again.

You seem to be well on your way Gary, thanks for posting

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Date: Mon, Mar 26, 2001 at 22:33:57 (GMT)
From: Gary Epton
Email: epton@magma.ca
To: Brian Smith
Subject: Nice post Gary, and welcome aboard
Message:
Thanks for the welcome Brian and the warm words of encouragement. You're quite perceptive!
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Date: Mon, Mar 26, 2001 at 03:22:40 (GMT)
From: Richard
Email: None
To: Gary Epton
Subject: Welcome Gary!
Message:
Thanks for posting that well written commentary. I hope you feel welcome to post as often as you like. Every new arrival here puts one more facet to this 'crest jewel of discrimination'.
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Date: Mon, Mar 26, 2001 at 02:53:21 (GMT)
From: Pat Conlon
Email: None
To: Gary Epton
Subject: Hi Gary and thanks to the oldtimer exes
Message:
for creating this site and for making this forum possible.

Do you know what happened to that land in Argentina?

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Date: Mon, Mar 26, 2001 at 22:29:26 (GMT)
From: Gary Epton
Email: epton@magma.ca
To: Pat Conlon
Subject: Hi Gary and thanks to the oldtimer exes
Message:
Hi Pat. I've really appreciated your posts. To answer your question about Tierra del amor apparently ghee was discovered on the land and m is pumping 20,000 barrels a day to supply the world with arti candles.
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Date: Mon, Mar 26, 2001 at 22:36:26 (GMT)
From: Pat Conlon
Email: None
To: Gary Epton
Subject: Are you sure Lard sells the ghee and not eat it NT
Message:
j
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Date: Mon, Mar 26, 2001 at 02:39:15 (GMT)
From: donner
Email: None
To: Gary Epton
Subject: Miragey
Message:
you remind me to thank those who have put so much into this forum over the years as well...a big thanks!
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Date: Mon, Mar 26, 2001 at 02:17:10 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Gary Epton
Subject: GARY!
Message:
Hey man!

How're you doing? When you gonna come back out and jam a bit with us?

Happy to see you post like this. You were always such a principled guy (or at least you fooled me along those lines). So it's just great to see you finally take a stand like this.

Can your email handle a couple mp3's?

Jim

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Date: Mon, Mar 26, 2001 at 22:22:39 (GMT)
From: Gary Epton
Email: epton@magma.ca
To: Jim
Subject: GARY!
Message:
Hey Jim. I've noticed that you must be permanently hardwired into this forum - a kind of cultish cyberborg. Glad to hear you're still playing music -yes, pls send me your MP3s and I'll send you my band's URL! Gary
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Date: Mon, Mar 26, 2001 at 05:46:17 (GMT)
From: janet
Email: None
To: gary
Subject: a handshake of welcome, and a chair in the study
Message:
feel free to start a tab, it's going on rawat's account. never worry about belaboring old issues. if its the first time you've spoken up about it, then it's all new in the telling, and we're all very interested to listen to anything you have to say about it.
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Date: Mon, Mar 26, 2001 at 17:26:40 (GMT)
From: Cynthia
Email: None
To: Gary
Subject: Welcome to F5
Message:
Dear Gary,

Thanks for your heartfelt post. I left the ashram before m closed them down, so I missed that crazy scene. I drifted away for about 15 years, then tried him out again as he was getting started up with those ''fantastic'' satellite feeds in the late 90's.

As janet said, it's absolutely okay for you to discuss issues that have meaning to you, but have already been talked about here. Each of us is an individual now, and feel free to relax, say what you need to say, and I think you'll find the forum to be quite a safe harbor.

That quote from m about the premie sticking his head in the toilet was so cruel. Nice guy that goomraji, eh? Also, it reminded me of something my psycho-father chanted to me and my 4 sisters throughout our childhood: ''I should have flushed you down the toilet when you were born.'' What an image.

Welcome aboard. It's not a $7 million yacht, but this site is much more valuable!

Warm regards,
Cynthia

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Date: Mon, Mar 26, 2001 at 01:46:49 (GMT)
From: Patrick W
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: latest from me
Message:
Interesting day. I picked up Mike Dettmers today from Gatwick airport and he is now upstairs asleep in my spare room. We had a pleasant evening meal at 'Topolino's' and have had some nice chat with a few local friends.

In my usual diplomatic spirit, I tried to interest Glen Whittaker in talking about the ex-premie issues with Mike whilst he's in town. This mission failed when Glen politely declined to speak with him. Anyway Mike has been making some efforts to contact Raja Ji, who is apparently in England at present. Maybe they will chat - who knows?

I think that premies / Maharaji are probably undecided yet as to whether to adopt a policy of strictly 'no negotiation' with critics, or whether some placatation may be considered inevitable. Certainly many of the PAM's, despite their feelings of loyalty, do seem to be privately admitting that this forum and the revelations thereof are a healthy development. (the revelations are incidently almost all true as far as I can now see - anyway I am certain enough to put my name at the top of this post in good conscience) .

A couple of other telephone calls tonight. One from someone who wishes to remain anonymous and who dictated to me the following, to post on the forum. This is simply what they wanted me to post - I trust this person but they are not my words (in italics):

Premies in Miami are busy shredding documents pertaining to the past. ie. ashram application forms with signed vows, financial records of DLM/EV companies etc.

Also Maharaji is reported to be reading this site on a fairly regular basis. (Mike Donner please send your $50 for losing that bet) Supposedly he finds these revelations about his past behaviours even quite liberating because he no longer has to make any efforts to keep them secret. ( I always knew that we were doing 'service' here all along).

So, having had the chance to talk a little with Mike Dettmers it is now quite clear to me (just from the emails he's picking up and from what he and these other callers have said) that there is really a lot of interest in this site at all levels.

What also impressed me is that both Dettmers and I are both clearly motivated largely by the desire to uphold principles here, not so much because of feelings of personal anger or regret.

That is not to say that I don't feel some frustration that there is a need in the first place, in this matter of something that I trusted to be about Truth, God and Goodness, to have to ever examine whether my Masters behaviour was even more lacking in integrity than anything I could have come up with in my most sordid moments. Specifically it seems a very sorry state that a seeker of truth ends up having to deal with the fact that their master himself has taken considerable steps to cover up even the most basic truths about the things that go on in his private life. The bigger truth it seems does not, in this case, inspire even such fundamental honesty in he who claims to be in touch with the highest inspiration.

What hope is there for us? I say we should very carefully examine our lives and not be afraid to put those who would be our Masters to the test. Basically I am putting my trust in a higher God -and at the moment that means my better judgement - which has proved to be a more trustworthy resource.

In truth, I see that this is not a story whose conclusion we can avoid being a part of. At best we can take some responsibility in our lives and stand up for what truthful and sincere values and longings we put into this thing in the first place. We can change this story from being a wasteful tragedy, into a story where truth wins, and lies, cover-ups, travesties of truth, are seen for what they are. We are writing the history book here. Not just him. We can do some real good now by demanding that Maharaji comes clean. It is a travesty that the Master's pupils have to expose his hypocrisies rather than he admit them with an honest and forthcoming attitude.

If this knowledge is so great then where is the strength of character of the Master who is supposed, surely, to be the ultimate example of the benefits of his teaching?

Is it not suspicious that his most ardent followers are having such a crisis of confidence? That at this stage the fruits of his labours are notably his enormous wealth and a society of stilted premies who speak in terms of donations and the cold distribution of Knowledge by DVD -and less of personal and infectious happiness and inspiration? You want to be around the Master - you'd better be prepared to pay for that priviledge nowadays. Those privy to participation meetings will probably know what I mean.

I am rather shocked that so many people, like myself, who approached this man and his teachings with so much sincerity, are hesitant to stand up, in the face of these unfolding facts, to question the many contradictions that are coming to light. You should be ashamed of yourselves if you don't try to understand the truth about what is going on with Maharaji in this world. You should be ashamed if you are assuming it is the spotless 'show of the Master' and have disengaged your conscience and need to discern the truth. You should be ashamed if it is merely convenient for you to not re-examine the integrity of your trusted leader. Would you be party to lies? For how long?

Maharaji is right that time is precious. I do not wish to be half-hearted about my commitment to truth. That is why I take these discussions so seriously. That is why I am trying not to throw the baby out with the bathwater. If I can redeem some truth and inspiration from the years of sincere meditation, dedication and sacrifice -I shall. Maharaji most definitely should talk not to, but with those people who, in his power play, have felt abused, confused, or simply still have misgivings .

One of my main bug-bears has been simply 'Why do I have to feel embarrased about introducing loved ones to this experience?'. I wish to God I had the strength of faith (and hadn't been required to vow not to do) to show this meditation, with love and care to those who were interested.

Maharaji now caw can afford to retire as a multi-millionare. That is surely a fact. The air-brushed image of who he is we now know to be innaccurate. Many of us gave up our lives, our youths, to put him and his family in clover - as he effectively is now materialistically. He and his family live hugely opulent lifestyles based entirely on the efforts of premies, who have either donated their own money or made him the benefactor and shareholder in a multitude of their businesses. What did he do to deserve this?

He 'showed' Knowledge - but then this is supposed to be something we already have. Did he really do that? What do we really owe him? What do we owe ourselves in all this?

This Knowledge is by no means proven to be the sole property of this man in my opinion. I fail to see why it derives soley from him - why his part gives him such authority over people? Are we not all God's creatures too?? He's just winging it anyway isn't he? He's made mistakes hasn't he? Why can we not run with our inspirations and spread this knowledge ourselves?

Because he has, over the years, convinced us, from the outset, that this is not a possibility. Furthermore it is not allowed. It is a condition not to share this. It is to be a most private obsession. You are to refer people to the appropriate channel. (even if it is so cultic and cold as to be the last thing you would wish to impose upon your friends) .

What happened to us becoming 'like the Master'? Remember that? I remember hearing M saying we would all become like him. When??? When were gasping our last breath?? When you reach 70?

I strongly urge anyone who is a premie to really become proactive to engage Maharaji and premies to answer all their misgivings. I believe that most premies put their sincerity, their heart and soul into this with great trust. That is a lot to give. There is a lot to explain still.

When premies develop misgivings they should not be told to 'Walk' - to shut up -to bottle their feelings. The result of that practice is self-evident in this forum and the whisperings in the divided premie community we see today.
We should all re-unite. So-called 'exes' have not stopped pursuing the truth. I for one will never admit to being an ex-seeker, or for that matter an ex-lover of God. I owe it to my creator who I still love with all my heart to try to shed light on all the dark areas which I encounter where fear and confusion lurks. And so to bed.

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Date: Mon, Mar 26, 2001 at 21:53:51 (GMT)
From: JHB
Email: None
To: Patrick W
Subject: I thought your post was too long....
Message:
... just because I give you satsang, doesn't mean I have to read this long, well written, heartfelt, perceptive, post. Now, does it?

John.

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Date: Tues, Mar 27, 2001 at 00:34:04 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: JHB
Subject: That's no way to make friends, John
Message:
But it's nice to see you trying.

Jim
Possibly John's Only Friend

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Date: Mon, Mar 26, 2001 at 17:52:46 (GMT)
From: Joe
Email: None
To: Patrick W
Subject: Questions, Patrick
Message:
I think that premies / Maharaji are probably undecided yet as to whether to adopt a policy of strictly 'no negotiation' with critics, or whether some placatation may be considered inevitable.

Patrick, on what do you base this opinion that Maharaji is 'undecided' on how to deal with critics. Everything I have ever heard he has done in his entire life is to ignore, obfuscate, and denigrate critics. There have been scandals before. Why do you perceive this change?

Certainly many of the PAM's, despite their feelings of loyalty, do seem to be privately admitting that this forum and the revelations thereof are a healthy development. (the revelations are incidently almost all true as far as I can now see - anyway I am certain enough to put my name at the top of this post in good conscience) ...

So, having had the chance to talk a little with Mike Dettmers it is now quite clear to me (just from the emails he's picking up and from what he and these other callers have said) that there is really a lot of interest in this site at all levels.

This is more the effect in my opinion, in loosening the ties these people have with Maharaji, with their beginning to question his motives and morals. I assume you have talked to PAMs about this, but do they say it's healthy for Maharaji, or for them, personally? I wonder if admitting to YOU that this Forum and the revelations are a healthy development, translates into suggesting the same to any other PAMs, or horrors, Maharaji himself.

As I said down below, I would tend to discount the 'shredding' comment. BTW, was that anonymous person saying the shredding was going on because of this Forum? If true, I'm just amazed they didn't shred all that stuff years ago. And as for Maharaji reading this Forum, how does that person know? Indeed, I would tend to agree with Donner that Maharaji doesn't see it, and that premies are to scared to tell him about it. On the other hand, if he does read it, he sure is fucking miserable at responding, if the Elan Vital FAQs, and his reported comments are anything to gauge that on.

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Date: Tues, Mar 27, 2001 at 00:34:19 (GMT)
From: donner
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: Questions, Patrick
Message:
hi these are my questions also...not falling into wishful thinking and hoping? real current PAMs are saying this?
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Date: Mon, Mar 26, 2001 at 13:11:02 (GMT)
From: Abi
Email: None
To: Patrick W
Subject: powerful stuff
Message:
Patrick

Many thanks. A powerful post. Lifted my spirits.

Abi

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Date: Mon, Mar 26, 2001 at 10:44:12 (GMT)
From: Charlie
Email: None
To: Patrick W
Subject: Well said!! Thanks (nt)
Message:
xccxv
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Date: Mon, Mar 26, 2001 at 10:15:34 (GMT)
From: salam
Email: None
To: Patrick W
Subject: firecrackers.
Message:
Wow, great stuff, give it to me.
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Date: Tues, Mar 27, 2001 at 02:32:37 (GMT)
From: Pat Conlon
Email: None
To: salam
Subject: Go out not with a bang but a whimper NT
Message:
j
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Date: Mon, Mar 26, 2001 at 09:13:12 (GMT)
From: Brian Smith
Email: None
To: Patrick W
Subject: I remember M saying that
Message:
About how we would all one day be like him. Not sure that I would want to now. The point is he lied to me, he lied to us. As far as I am concerned any vows I made to him are off, including not revealing knowledge to anyone.

I haven't done it yet, but I think that someday I will and when I do it will be most liberating. More than anything because one more illusion about this whole trip will fall when I find out what the other party experiences. I can't imagine it being any different that what I got myself.

Years ago here in Portland there was a Bongo premie who stared revealing the techniques to many of the street people here and garnered himself quite a group of initiates. I remember the directives from the malibu headquarters to round up the perpetrator and all of those poor unfortunates who were mislead. It seems that they were all in dire need of being straightened out by a real mahatma and unwound otherwise they would suffer severe karmic consequences for all of eternity. This is the story that was passed down from the top DLM management anyway.

They never were gathered up, and for years I saw this one Bongo initiate around the NW area for years just hanging out as usual no apparent adverse effects from the experience, in fact I heard that he got off the street and quit drinking later. The Bongo premie was banished from giving satsang by the community and given the cold shoulder. He would crash satsang and the premie houses and give satsang anyway so that didn't stick. He is still around town somewhere. The only damage he suffered was the rejection that was heaped on him by the cult. He was always around because his wife and child at that time were living in a premie house and even though he was ostracized he would visit all day and sneak in the window at night. They later divorced for other reasons, she was his biggest defender for years.

If someone sincerely wants to find out what these techniques are all about, fuck it, I will show them. No strings, no master attached, no head trip included. Why not? I still enjoy meditating from time to time.
I always have, only now I have separated the master from the meditation and it has improved the quality.

'Become just like him one day he said', he is offhandedly right about that now that I think about it, he is quite like the not so special person, falling prey to the same temptations and corruptions as any anyone who abuses power. He is the same as a lot of low life conmen who take advantage and exploit others.
Master my ass.....

In that light, I or anyone else is more than qualified to reveal the techniques. This is the way the knowledge was originally intended to be spread anyway. In India either right up front as a renunciate or after so many years as a householder, anyone could choose of their own free will to travel and roam as a holy man and share their blessings and reveal what they know to others. Unless they were so unfortunate to have joined a juju darshan cult and got stuck in master worship.
That was mainly peasant class country style dogma though, the upper class could read and would not buy into such nonsense or dependance.

I personally incountered a roving sage while in India, all he possessed were the clothes he wore and a bowl to eat from, he had the same knowledge to share, and there are thousands more just like him.

Think how fast knowledge would spread if everyone shared it amoungst themselves.

I am being quite radical, I know.... But if m wasn't so greedy and making this a personal business that is the way it would go.

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Date: Tues, Mar 27, 2001 at 01:31:58 (GMT)
From: such
Email: None
To: Brian Smith
Subject: thanks 4 sharing my rad idea;plan is proceeding(nt
Message:
nt
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Date: Mon, Mar 26, 2001 at 09:48:12 (GMT)
From: Pat Conlon
Email: None
To: Brian Smith
Subject: Brian you are not radical but sensible
Message:
Interesting story about the bongo Lone Ranger giving K to street people. Someone who was one of the aspirants I took care off in 1980 started to give K during homosexual orgies in his flat. I was so upset with this that I cut him dead and would no longer have anything to do with him but I did not report him. He is now the City Contact in A-----.

Knowledge should ALWAYS have been given simply as a gift from from friend to another. The religious and organizational trappings are simply there to keep the Rawat family preaching industry going. And we see the dysfunction and pain that the incorrect way of giving K has caused. There is only one correct way to give K - in a manner of loving one's neighbor as one loves oneself.

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Date: Mon, Mar 26, 2001 at 21:42:13 (GMT)
From: Brian Smith
Email: None
To: Pat Conlon
Subject: Amen Mahatma Pat Ji, I mean that sincerely
Message:
High soul
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Date: Mon, Mar 26, 2001 at 21:48:49 (GMT)
From: Pat Conlon
Email: None
To: Brian Smith
Subject: Gettin high with a little help from friends, Brian
Message:
Hope to enjoy some good jazz with you soon.
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Date: Mon, Mar 26, 2001 at 08:37:36 (GMT)
From: Marianne
Email: None
To: Patrick W
Subject: The Document Shredders
Message:
Thanks for this post. Shredding documents, under certain circumstances, can constitute obstruction of justice. If everything is so grand in the land of EV, why destroy documents?
Possible explanations, but which this report only suggests, and does not prove (that's for you libel attorneys and EV monitors):

They fear lawsuits are brewing and are destroying evidence which would support the legal claims that might be brought against the cult.

Evidence of criminal and civil financial improprieties exists and is being destroyed.

You know, getting rid of documents is one way to draw the attention and interest of federal law enforcement officials. Thank you very, very much for this. And thanks to the person in Miami who gave you this information.

If I were you Attorney Robert Jacobs, and Milbank Tweed, I'd be very concerned about this report. Nasty stuff, this.

Marianne

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Date: Mon, Mar 26, 2001 at 09:33:21 (GMT)
From: Brian Smith
Email: None
To: Marianne
Subject: No matter how much they shred,there is still a lot
Message:
of incriminating documents, paperwork, photos and publications floating around out here.

Whomever is in possession of any offical DLM, or EV material keep it safe and handy for future use is needed.

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Date: Mon, Mar 26, 2001 at 05:28:11 (GMT)
From: Joe
Email: None
To: Patrick W
Subject: A bit cryptic, patrick
Message:
I don't disagree with your opinion, Patrick, but what proof do you actually have that anything on this website or Forum is doing anything more than encouraging M to stick his puffy face further into the sand?

An anonymous post about shredding documents (I can't believe they didn't do that many years ago, so this is of little value), and about M being 'relieved' (I don't believe that for a second), aren't exactly proof of anything.

And just what PAM's are 'relieved.' Certainly not Glen Whittaker. Who?

Sorry Patrick, but your post sounds more like conjecture than anything else. Nice thoughts, though.

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Date: Mon, Mar 26, 2001 at 17:50:11 (GMT)
From: Patrick W
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: A bit cryptic, patrick
Message:
what proof do you actually have that anything on this website or Forum is doing anything more than encouraging M to stick his puffy face further into the sand?

Let's be clear about this. I was just reporting what I heard - verbatim. A PAM told someone this who called me and said 'post this' - I said OK but you read out to me now how this is to be worded, I want it to be clear I am just passing this on. This person is someone I totally trust. Trust is all I have to go on here and I have never suggested otherwise. If Maharaji personally calls me and says 'I am relieved that people know these things' I will be the first to let you know. Until then it is merely what I was told by a trusted friend.

Now, I know for sure that many premies consider it to be a very desirable outcome that Maharaji and EV are more open and accessible about things. Premies are not all so stupid as to not see the benefits of openess at all levels . It seems to me quite probable that Maharaji is becoming more comfortable with the idea of people knowing about all these things. After all, he must be rather pleased that he has not been judged so harshly as maybe he expected or feared in the event of his 'un-doing'. (fear has to have been the motive for cover-up).

Also he has little choice in the matter. He cannot afford to 'stick his head in the sand' further, because the vast majority of his followers are actually people of integrity and conscience who will not stand by and give him the benefit of the doubt ad infinitum. What we are not going to see though is a sudden about turn. He will want to 'reform' in a way that does not involve 'losing face'.

So there we have it. The ex-premies have done him the huge service of exposing his cupboard skeletons that were in danger of engulfing him with corruption. The irony is that premies will see this, much like Clinton's dramatic public apologies, as further proof of his strength of character, and thus also further proof of the meaness of ex-premies for pointing out his inadequacies in the first place. He is so influential now that he cannot lose.

Remember he is also now a multi-millionare. I don't suppose anyone could take that away from him if they wanted. He may quite happily 'retire'. Maybe one of his kids will carry on the family business.

An anonymous post about shredding documents (I can't believe they didn't do that many years ago, so this is of little value), and about M being 'relieved' (I don't believe that for a second), aren't exactly proof of anything.

I am certain this was a factual report. Maybe they are just shredding the documents because they don't want to have to pay for storage any longer. However I would guess that it's no coincidence that they are doing this at this time when they are particularly concerned to forget this sensitive part of premie history.
'M relieved.' Maybe this is wishful thinking on the PAM's part. We'll see.

And just what PAM's are 'relieved.' Certainly not Glen Whittaker. Who?

It's Maharaji who they say is relieved. I wouldn't be so surprised. Despite all these revelations, Maharaji has actually retained a great deal of respect from those who are so pleased with Knowledge or are so loyal that they cannot consider the contradictions. It's a bit like Sinatra or someone - generally perceived as being a wonderful singer -the fact that his ferocious temper compelled him to try to push someone out of his 'plane because they served him a bad egg, or was involved to the hilt with the Mafia is overlooked. It's called turning a blind eye. OK Maharaji is not Sinatra but you get the principle, the analogy. Premies are so concerned with what they get from him, that they don't care if he has an adverse effect on others - maybe as long as it's not them that is. Notably, they don't even wish to put this in the equation. I call it a lack of social conscience - lack of empathy -lack of judgement - narrow-mindedness etc. How about 'selfishness'?

I also think there is an analogy wih the British train robber who in the UK had a particularly devastating effect on the poor guard he coshed to stop the train. When, however he reached the relative safe haven of South America, he was as pleased as Punch that his generosity (with money that was not his - although at first that was not known) disposed the locals to revere him as a most generous and kind man. In fact he became something of a local hero and even his reputation as a train robber somehow added to his status as a folklore hero.

It is a quirk of human behaviour that such a person is publically often never really judged in a very balanced way. It's amazing how as long as someone provides you with something you want you can overlook the fact that they may be treading on someone else. We're a selfish lot! There are so many examples of this in the world.

Sorry Patrick, but your post sounds more like conjecture than anything else. Nice thoughts, though.

What percentage of all the rumours have you heard about all this have turned out to be true aginst those that now seem false?? 98%? I trust the people I speak to and in almost every case the things these people have told me has been corroborated by others and turns out to be true.

I have no desire to be cryptic for no reason. In the past I have had people confide in me these sorts of reports and sometimes it is clear that they want me to post them kind of on their behalf because they have their own reasons not to do so.

I have in the past sometimes refused and at other times felt that it would be a great shame not to share these things which are telling. In this case I don't want to kill the goose that lays the golden egg by giving away names.

Thinking about it, I confess that I have become more confident, and increasingly comfortable about passing on these sorts of messages. Mainly because there is nothing that these people have told me over over the years which has, in the end, turned out to have been untrue - and on the contrary - what they have said, that even I could not at first believe , has been corroborated by several others independently as being actually quite true! Sometimes just the tip of the iceberg in fact.

So I am not in any position to prove anything of course, and yet it would seem to me very likely that the vast majority of what I hear is truthful, and I see that there is some value in breaking this cycle of secrecy to all concerned. It would seem that there is some agreement about this even amongst the 'x-rated' themseves and now, the 'x-rater' himself!

Do you think that Maharaji is beyond even the slightest pang of guilt?

I hasten to add that those things that have been posted here which have been later denied or proved untrue have not been from my sources of information.

I only listen to people with whom I have developed mutual trust and respect . Only those people who have an investment in believing these reports to be false, have complained. They of course are usually conspicuously not in a position to really know. They just need to deny, obfuscate and preserve their delusions. What needs to happen perhaps is that some people may like to offer some proof that these things are NOT true. I think that is more realistically the stage we have reached here.

Quite frankly, it is no longer an issue with most premies as to whether these things are true or not. They are now mostly inured to accepting the truth about what goes on behind the closed doors of both EV and Maharaji's house. What some people are struggling with is what they are to make of it all - whether this changes anything for them or not- whether this tells them anything about how trustworthy he is as a Master. That is a struggle for many.

As we know many premies still consider that Maharaji's personal behaviour is not an issue and that it does not reflect on his validity as a Master. They consider the good out-weighs the bad I guess.

It is a symptom of the atmosphere of 'us and them', the secrecy and cover up that has gone on, that now one has to accept that 'whispered rumour' is often the most reliable, if not only way, to get the fuller picture.

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Date: Tues, Mar 27, 2001 at 00:53:07 (GMT)
From: donner
Email: None
To: Patrick W
Subject: A bit cryptic, patrick
Message:
hi again i should have read this before i sent the message now above...gee, i'm almost ready to pay up on the bet after reading the above.

your point is excellent re the belief system about the good out weighing the bad. that was what kept me around in the last 2-3 years in the 80's. but the blaming, last of judgement, never taking any responsibility finally took its toll and i began to know within my heart that indeed the means is really the way and especially with m we always lived with the means, not the end...and he was mean to the end.

the same story...the ends justify the means. this process of m's was the message to those around him daily. it became the operational tone of his whole package...just like his hawaiian shirts at one point, or rolex watches for the instructors, etc.
as he did, so did those around him do.

glad to hear that some around him are beginning to wonder about whether the ends to really justify the means. with some it will take more years of abuse then already to shake the tree.

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Date: Tues, Mar 27, 2001 at 10:57:44 (GMT)
From: Marianne
Email: delores@gofree.indigo.ie
To: donner
Subject: Ends justify the means: Jones and Rawat
Message:
Thanks for that bit of information. You'll be interested to know that Jim Jones used that little phrase as the foundation for running Peoples Temple.

I have it on good authority that Captain Rawat hates to be compared with other cult masters, esp. Jones and Koresh, so I point out these similarities every chance I get.

Marianne

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Date: Tues, Mar 27, 2001 at 17:06:01 (GMT)
From: Susan
Email: None
To: Marianne
Subject: every chance you get?
Message:
Marianne, that would interfere with your law practice, you would be doing nothing but posting here all day and night.

Rawat is a CLASSIC cult leader, included as the archetype in many books on cults!

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Date: Mon, Mar 26, 2001 at 18:47:18 (GMT)
From: Joe
Email: None
To: Patrick W
Subject: A bit cryptic, patrick
Message:
Thanks for the clarification, Patrick. If the rumors (and I have to leave it in that category at the moment) that Maharaji follows what is said here are true, it will be interesting to see if that manifests in any way. So far, it hasn't, as far as I can tell. His behavior has not changed.

Now, I know for sure that many premies consider it to be a very desirable outcome that Maharaji and EV are more open and accessible about things. Now, I know for sure that many premies consider it to be a very desirable outcome that Maharaji and EV are more open and accessible about things. Premies are not all so stupid as to not see the benefits of openess at all levels.

Perhaps, but premies are also not so stupid as to want to have embarrassing things admitted to by Maharaji. As it is, there is still deniability, or at least a question about whether or not it's true. If M admits it, then it's confirmed. Plus, admitting and accepting responsbility are two different things, and the latter I doubt will come anytime before hell freezes over.

It seems to me quite probable that Maharaji is becoming more comfortable with the idea of people knowing about all these things. After all, he must be rather pleased that he has not been judged so harshly as maybe he expected or feared in the event of his 'un-doing'. (fear has to have been the motive for cover-up).

Maybe some premies do, and many premies couldn't care less. Also, you have to look at the alternative. If Maharaji isn't more open about things, so what?

It seems to me quite probable that Maharaji is becoming more comfortable with the idea of people knowing about all these things. After all, he must be rather pleased that he has not been judged so harshly as maybe he expected or feared in the event of his 'un-doing'. (fear has to have been the motive for cover-up).

Yes, but non-admission leaves open 'plausable deniability.' I wouldn't be so sure that so many premies even know about these things and if they do, without his admission, they can retain the idea that it isn't true. Plus, admission about the alcohol, sex, drugs etc., doesn't even address the real issue in my opinion, which is that Maharaji portrayed himself as God and then pretended he never did.

Do you think that Maharaji is beyond even the slightest pang of guilt?

Unfortunately, I think this may well be true, at least as to his personal behavior, and his 'perfect master' behavior. I see no evidence that he has ever felt guilty or remorseful about anything.

That's why I think it's best to focus on his followers, and the effect that information has on them, rather than him. So, I agree that the 'stuggle' a premie would go through about all this is the significant event, at least if it causes each person to take a step back and question what it is they are involved in, and tacitly and actively support, financially and otherwise, by that involvement.

Then, if Maharaji lost all his followers, he would be in trouble and that might really motivate him, although I'm not sure what he would really do about that.

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Date: Tues, Mar 27, 2001 at 03:19:29 (GMT)
From: Pat Conlon
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: Ends justify means- reform or more revisionism
Message:
Patrick W said: ''He will want to 'reform' in a way that does not involve 'losing face'.''

Uh-huh. I hope it makes his premies happy. I personally don't care about any socalled Master. I would however take pity on him if he wore sack cloth and ashes and begged in the street.

These PAMs that Patrick knows must be the saintlier type of premie. There are also quite a few unprincipled ones who have stuck by Rev Moonbeam through all the scandals. The latters' mentality is amply demonstrated by the premie mischief makers who post here.

The end always justifies the means to socalled leaders, masters and other totalitarian, authoritarianism. This is more spin-doctoring.

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Date: Mon, Mar 26, 2001 at 03:37:36 (GMT)
From: Richard
Email: None
To: Patrick W
Subject: All I can say is ** Best Of Forum** post!
Message:
This one post is a powerful editorial and deserves a prominent place in the archives. And best wishes to Michael Dettmers on his various quests. Perhaps Raja Ji will be posting soon? The more the merrier.
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Date: Mon, Mar 26, 2001 at 07:37:32 (GMT)
From: Jean-Michel
Email: None
To: Richard
Subject: FA et al: Request reg ***Best of Forum***!!
Message:
I've renounced reading all the forum posts long time ago, and it's become very hard for me to track the best posts.

Would you please keep illuminating the threads holding ***Best*** posts this way ?

Thank you !!

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Date: Mon, Mar 26, 2001 at 03:33:23 (GMT)
From: Pat Conlon
Email: None
To: Patrick W
Subject: Thanks, Patrick , for the info and your essay
Message:
You said: One of my main bug-bears has been simply 'Why do I have to feel embarrased about introducing loved ones to this experience?'. I wish to God I had the strength of faith (and hadn't been required to vow not to do) to show this meditation, with love and care to those who were interested....Why can we not run with our inspirations and spread this knowledge ourselves?

My main disappointment with Rev Rawat is the way he has either blown K out of proportion (in the beginning) or has currently cheapened it to Auto-K. My break with him was initially precipitated by this disagreement. I stuck with him because I felt that it was best to present K in uniform way but I now think that is not necessary.

He could have given us K and said go show others but of course it would then not have been a money-making business. Also there would have been mini-cults developing and quite a few really looney applications of K. But now I think who cares. The techniques after all are unimportant. It is still up to each individual to use them as they please.

As for vows: they are superstitious nonsense and not binding contracts in a courts of law. Rev Rawat also broke his vows to take care of the renunciates who entered the ashram system.

I think you would make a wonderful teacher and I would love to spend time with you talking about K. I have no intention of setting myself up as a teacher but I will definitely show my loved ones something that I enjoy.

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Date: Mon, Mar 26, 2001 at 02:55:38 (GMT)
From: donner
Email: None
To: Patrick W
Subject: p.s. on raja ji
Message:
i think raja ji gets off pretty easy around here. i gather he is in uk on m's business, touring to support m's message. he knows all this stuff about m, much more...how can he continue to support him...why does he?

ask him about his part in the detroit, halley, fakiranand story...he stirred that pot good back then. how raja ji and m shared women...raja ji is in it for the free ride...at least that is what m always contended about raja ji. the whole idea of keeping your potential enemies close.

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Date: Mon, Mar 26, 2001 at 09:40:42 (GMT)
From: Brian Smith
Email: None
To: donner
Subject: Raji Ji is a parasite on a parasites ass
Message:
He really has gotten off easy on all counts, some one who knows should rattle his cage.
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Date: Mon, Mar 26, 2001 at 09:51:48 (GMT)
From: Pat Conlon
Email: None
To: Brian Smith
Subject: Raji Ji's ''Propagation Tour'' 1999 1st big drip
Message:
It was so obvious that he was drumming up business for his keeper. The hired hand doing the dirty work for the Mob Boss. Yuck!
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Date: Mon, Mar 26, 2001 at 06:07:52 (GMT)
From: G
Email: None
To: donner
Subject: raja ji
Message:
'i think raja ji gets off pretty easy around here.'

Yes, he does. Btw, what's his real name?

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Date: Mon, Mar 26, 2001 at 06:18:24 (GMT)
From: Richard
Email: None
To: G
Subject: raja ji = Daram Pal Singh Rawat (or Dharam) /nt
Message:
nt
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Date: Mon, Mar 26, 2001 at 09:08:51 (GMT)
From: janet
Email: None
To: Richard
Subject: 'Dharam Pal Singh Rawat' is correct
Message:
think 'dharma'
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Date: Mon, Mar 26, 2001 at 16:22:52 (GMT)
From: G
Email: None
To: janet
Subject: Where does he live? How much loot?
Message:
Does he have more than one house? I know he's getting a lot of money out of this, I heard him bragging about his very expensive audio equipment, the same way that Prem brags. Prem talked about him ruining a Mercedes and thought it was funny. Dharam (aka 'Raja Ji') might be getting more of the take than we think.
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Date: Tues, Mar 27, 2001 at 06:05:52 (GMT)
From: Bazza
Email: None
To: G
Subject: Where does he live? How much loot?
Message:
Miami Beach in a very nice condo right on the intracoastal. And yes he does have a fetish for expensive audio/video gear - I helped install some of it in the condo. But he's also a 'successful private investor' ;)
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Date: Mon, Mar 26, 2001 at 02:47:30 (GMT)
From: Selene
Email: None
To: Patrick W
Subject: doing service all the time
Message:
That is priceless Patrick. HA, am speechless really leave it to M to find a way to rationalize even this place. I feel so much better now, knowing I am helping out.
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Date: Mon, Mar 26, 2001 at 02:34:34 (GMT)
From: donner
Email: None
To: Patrick W
Subject: latest from me
Message:
what a great post. so real and sincere...thanks.

(i'll need more then that to send the $50 on the bet) who says he is reading exactly? alvaro, patrick mckracken?

are you saying that now m will not have to keep his serious alcohol problem a secret, or his blaming nature quiet any longer...that those around him are glad this is all out in the open now...his two pack a day habit his lying nature regarding his ownership of the technology of one way to go inside for some peace and connection to self...his use of the excuse to spread k as a means to accumulate more wealth? amazing turn of events if so. his acceptance of his past statements...why are they shredding those documents in that case...(i stil have my signed vows etc as an instructor/initiator.) are they shredding all those huge blue files so many premies struggled over the applications to be instructors that m never read or really ever cared about...just make work for some of us around him.

interesting stuff

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Date: Tues, Mar 27, 2001 at 14:42:28 (GMT)
From: bill-no way has he either
Email: None
To: donner
Subject: understood or accepted 'the past'..nt
Message:
sfbngs
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Date: Mon, Mar 26, 2001 at 02:29:10 (GMT)
From: Katie H.
Email: None
To: Patrick W
Subject: Shredding the documents! - thanks, Patrick! (nt)
Message:
nt
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Date: Mon, Mar 26, 2001 at 02:18:41 (GMT)
From: Roy
Email: None
To: Patrick W
Subject: latest from me
Message:
Well said Patrick- I concur 100%.

As rawat challenged everyone to face the truth in their lives,
It will be interesting to see how he will face said truths which
presently stare him in the face. How much integrity will this
'master' bring to the table? It always irritated me that he
had nothing but scorn and derision for any other teachers-
Nows his chance to put up or shut up.

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Date: Mon, Mar 26, 2001 at 02:14:22 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Patrick W
Subject: Really wonderful -- thanks
Message:
If Mike ever does see Raja Ji tell him to say hi for me. He'll recall that I was the guy he met with for a drink and to whom he admitted his own frustration that Maharaji stonewalled him as well as the rest of us regarding who he thinks he is, etc.

Jim
The Former Holy Family's Friend

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Date: Mon, Mar 26, 2001 at 21:51:35 (GMT)
From: JHB
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Jim, I don't have any friends....
Message:
.... can you please sign off a post as JHB's friend? It would make me feel warm and fuzzy.

Thanks,

John.

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Date: Mon, Mar 26, 2001 at 22:04:12 (GMT)
From: Pat the Fat Fag
Email: None
To: JHB
Subject: But I love you, you Latvian Irishman NT
Message:
h
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Date: Mon, Mar 26, 2001 at 22:19:46 (GMT)
From: JHB
Email: None
To: Pat the Fat Fag
Subject: Latvian Yorkshireman, please
Message:
but I've already had a go at Erika for misusing the word 'love'. Look we haven't met yet and I probably can't make June 2nd, so can we save the love for later?:-)

John the been around SF bay in a seaplane.

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Date: Mon, Mar 26, 2001 at 23:23:27 (GMT)
From: Pat Conlon
Email: None
To: JHB
Subject: John: point taken, slap accepted
Message:
Should have said I loved (or enjoyed?) your posts. Until we find a better word I too do not like to cheapen it.

Pat, the silly old Irish fool.

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Date: Mon, Mar 26, 2001 at 04:35:44 (GMT)
From: Mercedes
Email: None
To: All
Subject: Really wonderful -- thanks
Message:
Thanks for all your posts. I had a difficult day today and I needed to read these posts to be reminded of the scumbag of a person m is. Thanks from my heart.
Mercedes
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Date: Mon, Mar 26, 2001 at 02:10:49 (GMT)
From: moldy warp
Email: None
To: Patrick W
Subject: Very powerful post. Just taking it in at the mo nt
Message:
X
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