Forum V: Archive
Compiled: Thurs, Mar 29, 2001 at 19:54:59 (GMT)
From: Mar 22, 2001 To: Mar 28, 2001 Page: 5 Of: 5


alex -:- enjoy your life -:- Fri, Mar 23, 2001 at 16:45:52 (GMT)
__ janet -:- your post angers me deeply. can you handle it? -:- Sat, Mar 24, 2001 at 11:23:54 (GMT)
__ __ SB -:- Good Post!! Thanks. NT -:- Sun, Mar 25, 2001 at 12:02:56 (GMT)
__ salam -:- Dear Alex -:- Sat, Mar 24, 2001 at 04:46:57 (GMT)
__ G -:- enjoy your life -:- Fri, Mar 23, 2001 at 22:50:24 (GMT)
__ __ SB -:- Only FEW: Said by the Master... -:- Sun, Mar 25, 2001 at 12:25:12 (GMT)
__ suchabanana -:- same techs available - w/o bogus guru 'strings' -:- Fri, Mar 23, 2001 at 21:43:20 (GMT)
__ Jerry -:- enjoy your life -:- Fri, Mar 23, 2001 at 21:43:13 (GMT)
__ __ alex -:- enjoy your life -:- Sat, Mar 24, 2001 at 04:53:45 (GMT)
__ __ __ Jerry -:- I think you're wrong, Alex -:- Sat, Mar 24, 2001 at 17:27:45 (GMT)
__ cq -:- re 'finger pointing, whining and unresolved anger' -:- Fri, Mar 23, 2001 at 21:21:34 (GMT)
__ Jethro -:- enjoy your life -:- Fri, Mar 23, 2001 at 18:33:05 (GMT)
__ __ alex -:- enjoy your life -:- Fri, Mar 23, 2001 at 19:42:50 (GMT)
__ __ __ Pat Conlon -:- enjoy your life, alex -:- Fri, Mar 23, 2001 at 19:51:17 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ sivan -:- what's the fuss? -:- Sat, Mar 24, 2001 at 04:51:04 (GMT)
__ Way -:- Alex - questions and answers -:- Fri, Mar 23, 2001 at 18:07:08 (GMT)
__ __ alex -:- Alex - questions and answers -:- Fri, Mar 23, 2001 at 19:22:54 (GMT)
__ __ __ Bazza -:- So by your definition...... -:- Sat, Mar 24, 2001 at 05:39:38 (GMT)
__ __ __ Cynthia -:- Alex , Alex, Alex.... -:- Fri, Mar 23, 2001 at 20:12:46 (GMT)
__ __ __ Pat Conlon -:- Alex - questions and answers - you're an idealist -:- Fri, Mar 23, 2001 at 19:57:08 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Pat Conlon -:- Alex - PS - ''a better alternative'' -:- Fri, Mar 23, 2001 at 20:04:52 (GMT)
__ __ __ Way -:- Alex - more questions and answers -:- Fri, Mar 23, 2001 at 19:47:50 (GMT)
__ Gregg -:- the 'better alternative' -:- Fri, Mar 23, 2001 at 17:12:31 (GMT)
__ Jim -:- The ol' Premie Mexican Standoff -:- Fri, Mar 23, 2001 at 17:02:58 (GMT)
__ __ alex -:- The ol' Premie Mexican Standoff -:- Fri, Mar 23, 2001 at 17:47:48 (GMT)
__ __ __ la-ex -:- Alex baby!With that sidestepping, you could work -:- Sat, Mar 24, 2001 at 01:42:03 (GMT)
__ __ __ Jerry -:- I've got another question -:- Fri, Mar 23, 2001 at 21:59:32 (GMT)
__ Nigel -:- The return of Mr Get-a-Life! -:- Fri, Mar 23, 2001 at 16:51:19 (GMT)
__ __ Helen -:- Yes but here is the worse type yet -:- Fri, Mar 23, 2001 at 22:18:12 (GMT)
__ __ __ JHB -:- Great post, but you spelt loosers wrong! (nt) -:- Sat, Mar 24, 2001 at 12:39:17 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Tami Rainbow -:- Great post, but you spelt loosers wrong! -:- Sat, Mar 24, 2001 at 14:57:38 (GMT)
__ __ Jim -:- Fuck! I should have read you first, Nige -:- Fri, Mar 23, 2001 at 17:04:58 (GMT)
__ __ __ Nigel -:- Fuck! I should have read you first, Nige -:- Fri, Mar 23, 2001 at 17:07:17 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Pat Conlon -:- Fuck! I'm glad I read all of your posts first -:- Fri, Mar 23, 2001 at 18:51:20 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ cerise -:- This has been a great thread guys! -:- Sat, Mar 24, 2001 at 05:40:56 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Katie H -:- we have to repeat ourselves, Cerise -:- Sat, Mar 24, 2001 at 17:01:40 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Abi -:- this damn thing -:- Sat, Mar 24, 2001 at 13:38:25 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ cerise -:- she may be -:- Sat, Mar 24, 2001 at 13:58:45 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Sherlock Holmes -:- Young Lady -:- Sat, Mar 24, 2001 at 08:43:16 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ cerise -:- Yes kind sire? -:- Sat, Mar 24, 2001 at 14:50:43 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Hal (Sherlock ) -:- Ok I'm on the wrong track again ! -:- Sat, Mar 24, 2001 at 17:24:20 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Pat Conlon -:- Cerise, you sure have it figured out -:- Sat, Mar 24, 2001 at 06:09:15 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ alex -:- Cerise, you sure have it figured out -:- Sat, Mar 24, 2001 at 22:39:13 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ cerise -:- well sort of, not quite -:- Sat, Mar 24, 2001 at 07:35:03 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Abi -:- contact high + Indian food = -:- Sat, Mar 24, 2001 at 13:13:18 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ cerise -:- sure i had darshan Abi, like I said -:- Sat, Mar 24, 2001 at 14:05:01 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Abi -:- whatever... -:- Sat, Mar 24, 2001 at 14:24:04 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Pat Conlon -:- Cerise, here are the answers to your questions -:- Sat, Mar 24, 2001 at 10:07:57 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ cerise -:- Thanks -:- Sat, Mar 24, 2001 at 15:07:42 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Jim -:- Have you thought about this, Cerise? -:- Sat, Mar 24, 2001 at 22:46:36 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Pat Conlon -:- Cerise: Rawat is perfect and Hitler loved Jews -:- Sat, Mar 24, 2001 at 18:53:42 (GMT)

Aghast -:- What the ****? -:- Fri, Mar 23, 2001 at 12:08:11 (GMT)
__ Sir Dave -:- What the ****? - an explanation -:- Fri, Mar 23, 2001 at 17:37:05 (GMT)
__ old friend -:- Peace and lentils! Next he talked about stew! -:- Fri, Mar 23, 2001 at 17:21:55 (GMT)
__ Nigel -:- Same old posturing as divine seer... -:- Fri, Mar 23, 2001 at 16:48:54 (GMT)
__ Connie -:- Aghast, I do not think -:- Fri, Mar 23, 2001 at 13:42:55 (GMT)
__ __ la-ex -:- I knew JFK, JFK was a friend of mine, and you sir. -:- Fri, Mar 23, 2001 at 14:54:06 (GMT)
__ __ __ donner -:- I knew JFK, JFK was a friend of mine, and you sir. -:- Fri, Mar 23, 2001 at 15:43:39 (GMT)
__ __ Abi -:- Aghast, I do not think -:- Fri, Mar 23, 2001 at 14:11:13 (GMT)
__ __ __ Connie -:- Waiting the Word of the Master or -:- Fri, Mar 23, 2001 at 14:28:55 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ suchabanana -:- It's plagiarized from Krishnamurti's book: -:- Fri, Mar 23, 2001 at 19:54:35 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Abi -:- It's plagiarized from Krishnamurti's book: -:- Sat, Mar 24, 2001 at 12:45:31 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ such -:- drop-Dtuning]together now:We're allLoveLoveLove(nt -:- Sat, Mar 24, 2001 at 17:28:40 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Abi -:- Waiting the Word of the Master or -:- Fri, Mar 23, 2001 at 15:22:38 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Susan -:- Abi, your wit is incredible! -:- Fri, Mar 23, 2001 at 16:42:35 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Abi -:- Abi, your wit is incredible! -:- Sat, Mar 24, 2001 at 13:46:41 (GMT)
__ AJW -:- He forgot to say... -:- Fri, Mar 23, 2001 at 12:59:05 (GMT)
__ __ Abi -:- funny and so awfully true -:- Fri, Mar 23, 2001 at 15:30:32 (GMT)
__ Katie H. -:- I agree -:- Fri, Mar 23, 2001 at 12:37:23 (GMT)
__ __ janet -:- i'm one too. see my post under DISHnet,, -:- Fri, Mar 23, 2001 at 13:15:12 (GMT)
__ __ __ Katie H. -:- Funny, Janet! -:- Fri, Mar 23, 2001 at 18:28:20 (GMT)
__ __ __ Hanuman -:- i'm one too. see my post under DISHnet,, -:- Fri, Mar 23, 2001 at 14:06:24 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Sananda -:- Sh Starseed -:- Sat, Mar 24, 2001 at 22:40:49 (GMT)

The Watcher -:- Are these corporate clients supporting Rawat? -:- Fri, Mar 23, 2001 at 12:01:40 (GMT)
__ salam -:- Are these corporate clients supporting Rawat? -:- Fri, Mar 23, 2001 at 14:26:29 (GMT)
__ __ WF -:- Are these corporate clients supporting Rawat? -:- Fri, Mar 23, 2001 at 16:01:39 (GMT)
__ __ __ Francesca -:- You'd have to trace the money stream in a way that -:- Fri, Mar 23, 2001 at 20:20:50 (GMT)
__ __ la-ex -:- Should Deltek's clients know who Deltek supports?n -:- Fri, Mar 23, 2001 at 14:55:57 (GMT)

Tony Walker (Aussi Ji) -:- Anyone know where Padarthanand is ? -:- Fri, Mar 23, 2001 at 11:23:05 (GMT)
__ cerise -:- hey Tony... -:- Sat, Mar 24, 2001 at 06:45:59 (GMT)
__ __ Tony Walker (Aussi Ji) -:- hey Cerise -:- Sat, Mar 24, 2001 at 22:15:18 (GMT)
__ __ Katie H. -:- We didn't really 'know' these people, cerise -:- Sat, Mar 24, 2001 at 16:45:54 (GMT)
__ __ Abi -:- petite PAM? -:- Sat, Mar 24, 2001 at 13:58:20 (GMT)
__ __ __ cerise -:- yeay and not ashamed of it -:- Sat, Mar 24, 2001 at 15:41:20 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Abi -:- whatever..... -:- Sun, Mar 25, 2001 at 00:58:31 (GMT)
__ Joe -:- Padarthanand -:- Fri, Mar 23, 2001 at 19:52:07 (GMT)
__ __ G -:- smiling faces sometimes... -:- Fri, Mar 23, 2001 at 22:08:46 (GMT)
__ __ __ Joe -:- Yes, very cute... -:- Fri, Mar 23, 2001 at 23:21:53 (GMT)
__ __ Ulf -:- Krisnasukanand -:- Fri, Mar 23, 2001 at 19:58:48 (GMT)
__ __ __ Steve Quint -:- Krisnasukanand -:- Sat, Mar 24, 2001 at 01:10:18 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Ulf -:- Krisnasukanand -:- Sat, Mar 24, 2001 at 11:53:52 (GMT)
__ __ __ Katie Darling -:- Krisnasukanand... too cute! nt -:- Sat, Mar 24, 2001 at 01:01:37 (GMT)
__ Abi -:- Anyone know where Padarthanand is ? -:- Fri, Mar 23, 2001 at 13:51:55 (GMT)
__ __ salam -:- That me gal. -:- Fri, Mar 23, 2001 at 14:30:25 (GMT)
__ janet -:- no ya dont-another sexual user and betrayer -:- Fri, Mar 23, 2001 at 13:18:37 (GMT)
__ __ Tony Walker (Aussi Ji) -:- Thanks guys,There goes another concept -:- Fri, Mar 23, 2001 at 20:28:26 (GMT)
__ __ __ Salam -:- Sorry mate -:- Sat, Mar 24, 2001 at 12:27:35 (GMT)
__ __ __ janet -:- its wot we're 'ere for mate. -:- Sat, Mar 24, 2001 at 12:20:57 (GMT)

janet -:- bear with me. this is long but a major awakening -:- Fri, Mar 23, 2001 at 10:46:09 (GMT)
__ cq -:- bear with me. this is long but a major awakening -:- Sat, Mar 24, 2001 at 17:54:09 (GMT)
__ Katie H. -:- recognizing our shadow side -:- Sat, Mar 24, 2001 at 16:22:38 (GMT)
__ Salam -:- I don't watch ER -:- Sat, Mar 24, 2001 at 14:14:08 (GMT)
__ Monmot -:- bear with me. this is long but a major awakening -:- Fri, Mar 23, 2001 at 20:03:38 (GMT)
__ __ cerise -:- good for you Monmot -:- Sat, Mar 24, 2001 at 07:43:34 (GMT)
__ __ __ Monmot -:- and good for you Cerise -:- Sat, Mar 24, 2001 at 18:53:20 (GMT)

Jean-Michel -:- Heard rumors of Rawat coming to Europe? -:- Fri, Mar 23, 2001 at 10:35:48 (GMT)
__ Tony Walker (Aussi Ji) -:- Maybe he has gone to luides to pray LOL.nt -:- Fri, Mar 23, 2001 at 11:38:36 (GMT)
__ __ Tony Walker (Aussi Ji) -:- Or maybe the Palace of Peace for ol'times sake.LOL -:- Fri, Mar 23, 2001 at 11:41:53 (GMT)
__ AJW -:- Hot news from London. -:- Fri, Mar 23, 2001 at 10:55:52 (GMT)
__ __ Patrick -:- Hot news from London. -:- Fri, Mar 23, 2001 at 12:17:01 (GMT)
__ __ __ janet -:- kidnap him,deprogram him, bring him here. -:- Fri, Mar 23, 2001 at 13:22:12 (GMT)
__ __ __ AJW -:- Imagination -:- Fri, Mar 23, 2001 at 12:45:51 (GMT)

Francesca -:- Check out Saddle Pal's version of WPC. yikes. -:- Fri, Mar 23, 2001 at 00:07:50 (GMT)
__ bill -:- Narcissists love a color gaurd.......nt -:- Fri, Mar 23, 2001 at 04:13:41 (GMT)
__ la-ex -:- Shouldn't EPO have an honor guard with uniforms .. -:- Fri, Mar 23, 2001 at 03:21:18 (GMT)
__ __ Francesca -:- Yes, I noticed the humanitarian programs also -:- Fri, Mar 23, 2001 at 05:25:35 (GMT)
__ __ __ Pat Conlon -:- Satpal does not seem to stress the bhakti -:- Fri, Mar 23, 2001 at 06:22:43 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ El Santo -:- Satpal does not seem to stress the bhakti -:- Fri, Mar 23, 2001 at 21:28:54 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Pat Conlon -:- Thanks, El Santo - and you're right about -:- Sat, Mar 24, 2001 at 00:39:18 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ janet -:- he was always the virtuous one doncha know? -:- Fri, Mar 23, 2001 at 11:31:21 (GMT)
__ Bin Liner -:- They didn't give you a stick Fran..... -:- Fri, Mar 23, 2001 at 01:41:23 (GMT)
__ __ Francesca -:- YOW!!! n/t -:- Fri, Mar 23, 2001 at 05:27:40 (GMT)

Bobby -:- ex-premies now and then - updated -:- Thurs, Mar 22, 2001 at 21:09:00 (GMT)
__ DV -:- Hey Bobby. -:- Sun, Mar 25, 2001 at 05:45:11 (GMT)
__ Brian Smith -:- Thanks for the memories Bobby -:- Thurs, Mar 22, 2001 at 21:42:02 (GMT)
__ __ Carol -:- No the date is right -:- Fri, Mar 23, 2001 at 16:57:36 (GMT)
__ __ __ and... -:- and the baby on my lap is the man the left in Now -:- Fri, Mar 23, 2001 at 17:56:51 (GMT)
__ __ __ Carol -:- Oops, Brian, I read your answer below -:- Fri, Mar 23, 2001 at 17:06:38 (GMT)
__ Pat Conlon -:- ex-premies now and then - thanks, Bobby NT -:- Thurs, Mar 22, 2001 at 21:21:43 (GMT)

berni -:- Old Romantic to Jim the pragmatist -:- Thurs, Mar 22, 2001 at 20:32:20 (GMT)

Malibu Council Lurk -:- Rawat approved to take a Crap - with conditions ! -:- Thurs, Mar 22, 2001 at 17:31:51 (GMT)
__ AJW -:- The Captain need more space. -:- Fri, Mar 23, 2001 at 11:16:38 (GMT)
__ __ salam -:- Anth, you need to be deprogrammed! -:- Fri, Mar 23, 2001 at 14:40:09 (GMT)
__ such -:- gigo (nt -:- Fri, Mar 23, 2001 at 03:37:10 (GMT)

Nigel -:- Consciousness: reply to G from inactive (semi-OT) -:- Thurs, Mar 22, 2001 at 16:48:31 (GMT)
__ Jerry -:- What about memes, Nige? -:- Thurs, Mar 22, 2001 at 21:11:33 (GMT)
__ berni -:- Consciousness: reply to G from inactive (semi-OT) -:- Thurs, Mar 22, 2001 at 20:59:42 (GMT)
__ __ Nigel -:- No, 'Jean-Paul Satre was a drunken fart!' -:- Fri, Mar 23, 2001 at 16:07:27 (GMT)
__ G -:- Consciousness -:- Thurs, Mar 22, 2001 at 19:59:41 (GMT)
__ Jim -:- Amen, brudda Nigel! -:- Thurs, Mar 22, 2001 at 16:53:16 (GMT)
__ __ Bryn -:- Amen, brudda Nigel! -:- Fri, Mar 23, 2001 at 21:44:13 (GMT)
__ __ __ Jim -:- I'll try this -:- Sat, Mar 24, 2001 at 01:58:30 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Bryn -:- Pity I didn't impress you-I would have liked to. -:- Sat, Mar 24, 2001 at 18:34:51 (GMT)
__ __ Francesca -:- First sentence agreed -:- Thurs, Mar 22, 2001 at 19:41:28 (GMT)
__ __ __ Pat Conlon -:- Francesca, now you know why I call myself agnostic -:- Thurs, Mar 22, 2001 at 19:49:45 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Jerry -:- Francesca, now you know why I call myself agnostic -:- Thurs, Mar 22, 2001 at 20:25:55 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Pat Conlon -:- I've always been a cheap drunk, Jerry -:- Thurs, Mar 22, 2001 at 20:40:44 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Helen -:- doggy darshan -:- Fri, Mar 23, 2001 at 02:24:58 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Pat Conlon -:- doggy darshan see pic above, Helen - NT -:- Fri, Mar 23, 2001 at 02:32:54 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Helen -:- LOL, my dog is queen bee too (nt) -:- Fri, Mar 23, 2001 at 02:59:06 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Francesca -:- Yes it's wise not to get out there too deep! -:- Thurs, Mar 22, 2001 at 19:52:56 (GMT)

Patrick Wilson -:- Interesting new Indian sites online . -:- Thurs, Mar 22, 2001 at 16:07:10 (GMT)
__ G -:- 'virtual puja' -:- Thurs, Mar 22, 2001 at 21:50:40 (GMT)
__ __ la-ex -:- I've got an idea,but need eDrek or someone who -:- Sat, Mar 24, 2001 at 04:27:42 (GMT)
__ __ __ G -:- tech details -:- Sat, Mar 24, 2001 at 19:30:18 (GMT)
__ Jean-Michel -:- I'll HAVE TO update my website!! -:- Thurs, Mar 22, 2001 at 18:32:57 (GMT)
__ Francesca -:- Great POST on not practicing religiously -:- Thurs, Mar 22, 2001 at 17:09:58 (GMT)
__ WMary -:- Maybe gurucharanand... -:- Thurs, Mar 22, 2001 at 16:54:03 (GMT)
__ Jim -:- Thank you SO much, Patrick -- and an idea -:- Thurs, Mar 22, 2001 at 16:34:30 (GMT)
__ __ janet -:- this i could get INTO! i have a sari... -:- Fri, Mar 23, 2001 at 12:08:12 (GMT)
__ __ Anon -:- OK Jim..U need to check this... -:- Thurs, Mar 22, 2001 at 22:39:51 (GMT)
__ __ __ Susan -:- I loved it you Swamis!!!!! -:- Fri, Mar 23, 2001 at 16:28:03 (GMT)
__ __ __ Abi -:- OK Jim..U need to check this... -:- Fri, Mar 23, 2001 at 14:20:04 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Jim -:- Yeah, I thought so too -:- Fri, Mar 23, 2001 at 17:11:07 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Abi -:- Yeah, I thought so too -:- Sat, Mar 24, 2001 at 01:48:44 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Steve Quint -:- Yeah, I thought so too -:- Fri, Mar 23, 2001 at 17:20:41 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Jim -:- I think she's completely into it (nt) -:- Fri, Mar 23, 2001 at 17:27:43 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Francesca -:- There is a tutu picture actually ... -:- Fri, Mar 23, 2001 at 17:04:42 (GMT)
__ __ __ janet -:- excellent. just how i see myself. saved it -:- Fri, Mar 23, 2001 at 12:21:06 (GMT)
__ __ __ Loaf -:- I have wept and hooted for 8 minutes....so far.. -:- Fri, Mar 23, 2001 at 07:37:07 (GMT)
__ __ __ Francesca -:- Tears rolling down my face -:- Fri, Mar 23, 2001 at 05:36:59 (GMT)
__ __ __ Jim -:- That is SOOOOO fucking good! -:- Fri, Mar 23, 2001 at 04:00:18 (GMT)
__ __ __ Katie -:- Anon, that's frightening! (But very funny!) -:- Fri, Mar 23, 2001 at 03:50:05 (GMT)
__ __ __ Pat Conlon -:- THAT'S A HOOT. ALL THE SWAMI EXES!!! -:- Thurs, Mar 22, 2001 at 23:09:48 (GMT)
__ __ __ G -:- ^^^ A MUST SEE ^^^ -:- Thurs, Mar 22, 2001 at 23:03:53 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ G -:- ^^^ Anon's Swami Service ^^^ -:- Thurs, Mar 22, 2001 at 23:50:09 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Katie H. -:- Quit laughing at us, G, and send in YOUR pic:)! nt -:- Fri, Mar 23, 2001 at 12:31:36 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ G -:- Who's laughing at you? -:- Fri, Mar 23, 2001 at 17:06:38 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Katie H. -:- Maybe we're all in the wrong business! -:- Fri, Mar 23, 2001 at 18:30:10 (GMT)
__ __ Pat Conlon -:- That was a low blow, Jim -:- Thurs, Mar 22, 2001 at 19:42:48 (GMT)
__ __ __ Steve Quint -:- I Found A Good Caricature Of Jim -:- Thurs, Mar 22, 2001 at 19:57:44 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Pat Conlon -:- Jim's a Jewish leprechaun? No wonder I like him NT -:- Thurs, Mar 22, 2001 at 20:04:14 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Steve Quint -:- Here's A Really Close Likeness -:- Thurs, Mar 22, 2001 at 20:26:55 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Pat Conlon -:- Looks like Jim found the pot of gold NT -:- Thurs, Mar 22, 2001 at 20:44:18 (GMT)
__ donner -:- Interesting new Indian sites online . -:- Thurs, Mar 22, 2001 at 16:20:56 (GMT)
__ __ Way -:- Thanks, PW, this deserves a permanent link (nt) -:- Thurs, Mar 22, 2001 at 16:23:56 (GMT)
__ __ __ Patrick W -:- More from 'Shree Nagli Sahib'... -:- Thurs, Mar 22, 2001 at 23:29:47 (GMT)

SB -:- Satellite Feed FREE??? Who knows about this? -:- Thurs, Mar 22, 2001 at 14:14:11 (GMT)
__ Richard -:- The EV video broadcasts may soon be free -:- Fri, Mar 23, 2001 at 06:38:29 (GMT)
__ __ SB -:- Thanks Richard (nt) -:- Sat, Mar 24, 2001 at 05:07:21 (GMT)
__ Selene -:- infomercial -:- Fri, Mar 23, 2001 at 03:12:15 (GMT)
__ __ SB -:- infomercial -:- Sat, Mar 24, 2001 at 05:08:38 (GMT)
__ AJW -:- What's 'Dish Network'? -:- Thurs, Mar 22, 2001 at 18:14:22 (GMT)
__ __ SB -:- What's 'Dish Network'? -:- Fri, Mar 23, 2001 at 00:08:39 (GMT)
__ __ __ AJW -:- I once was lost but now I'm lost. -:- Fri, Mar 23, 2001 at 10:39:48 (GMT)
__ __ Cynthia -:- Dish Network, as in DishNet, or ''Got Dish?'' -:- Thurs, Mar 22, 2001 at 20:36:23 (GMT)
__ __ Chuck Sprague -:- What's 'Dish Network'? -:- Thurs, Mar 22, 2001 at 19:45:25 (GMT)
__ __ __ janet -:- the dish is 18' across, portable, comes with a -:- Fri, Mar 23, 2001 at 13:09:52 (GMT)


Date: Fri, Mar 23, 2001 at 16:45:52 (GMT)
From: alex
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: enjoy your life
Message:

dear all

i have been visiting your site over the last few years.
so i just wanted to say a few things. i am a premie who is practicing and also going to events with maharaji. but first a question to michael dettmers and everyone else who cares to think about it.
some of you mention the fact that you still practice knowledge so how does that feel? obviously there is an experience otherwise you would have stopped by now.
this is what i feel. i received knowledge 26 years ago. i was in the ashram for the first 2 years after that the ashram left, i did not leave it. ( 1976 )
but ever since i received knowledge i have enjoyed it very much. in the beginning i did not really get the maharaji trip. i used to get uncomfortable with all the mass hysteria. over the years though i began to appreciate maharaji and the inspiration he provided. very early on i realized also that he was not perfect he actually said it himself for those who could hear.
so first of all i think that most of you guys out there never really experienced knowledge. and as a matter of fact most people today who are considering themselves active premies also don't have a clear understanding of knowledge. so i am staying away from all of that. the current organization is mostly a bunch of scared, confused, needy career oriented people. and in the absence of a solid experience that is inevitable.
but there are people who i respect and love who are in touch with themselves, who are not afraid to address the issues and who do have an experience of knowledge and that for me is what it is all about.
so i do appreciate the existence of ex-premie and the openness and frankness with which things are discussed. however i would like to remind you that it seems there is a lot of finger pointing and whining and unresolved anger out there and i think it still applies that when you point your one finger the three remaining ones point to yourself.
to conclude i think that when someone receives knowledge the first question is did it work as promised? and i am very aware that it takes a lot of effort and the right kind of effort and a lot of sincerity etc. so if knowledge works why not leave it at that? if knowledge does not work, walk away. why be obsessed with maharaji and everything else? get a live, learn, have some fun and take it all with a lot of grains of salt. and please, why not come up with an alternative that is better?
i am not aware that anybody has expressed anything like that. but then i have not read everything that is posted here.
so hopefully that can be a positive contribution to this site and good luck to all of you.

alex

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sat, Mar 24, 2001 at 11:23:54 (GMT)
From: janet
Email: None
To: alex
Subject: your post angers me deeply. can you handle it?
Message:
It absolutely enrages me when someone presumes to pop in here and thinks they've come to save us all, as if theyre some pitying angel looing in on the damned souls in hell.
It enrages me that you think we came here to whine and point fingers because we somehow 'didnt get it' or 'didn't experience the Knowledge' or 'never really practiced' it and that this is some kind of sour grapes club.
this site started out as a place where people who had been premies could meet others who had been premies and talk about it. in open talking, more and more became known here.
i say 'had been'premies. you prefer to draw a line around the change in perception that you beleive happens with practicing the techniques, and call that alone, the Knowledge, and you say that all the rest of it is something else.
lets start with your line then.
if those techniques really do transform a person's perceptions of life and make them more vulnerable, soft, receptive, gentle, and in all ways more innocent and childlike,
then the last thing that should ever happen in a social group made up of people like that, is abuse, pain, guilting,manipulation,takeing shamelss advantage of,browbeating, overworking and banishment.
if doing the meditation opens a person, can you understand how being subject to such cruelty would drive them to leave? why would they stay?
like trusting children, they--we--believed all we were told, and did what we were told. we were told to do things, and to beleive things, that were harmfull for us. the very opening and gentling you speak of, was then turned and used to hurt us, day in and day out.
you dont tell a trusting child put his hand in fire. you don't stand him in a third story window and give him a cape made out of a blanket and tell him if he jumps out, he will fly. you don't tell him if he runs fast enough, he can run between the cars and get across the street. you dont throw him into deep water and tell him he can breathe water just like the fish.

he will believe you, and do it, because you said so, and he believes you know everything. he certainly thinks you know more about everything than he does.

if he does not lose his life for trusting you and believing you, he will do just as you say--and instantly his own body will tell him what you told him isnt true, isnt good for him, hurts, feels all wrong, is something he must never do again.
if he survives the burn to his hand, the breaks in his bones, the injuries to his body, the near drownng in the deep water, he will have learned not to trust you again and trustwhat his own body and sense tells him.
how much bigger is it if someone comes down the pike and declares he can show you god, that he comes to bring peace to the world in your lifetime, and if you give your life over to him utterly, it will happen?
if you trust him, if you believe him, if you do as he says, and your own body tells you that this isnt good, this is harmful, that this hurts, that it isnt so at all--is it any mystery why you would back away and leave, and tell others as well?
is it surprsing if you should meet another who was in the same thing, that you should ask each other and tell each other what it was like for you?

if it ever was what we were told it was, it would not now look and feel like this.
this, meaning like this site is, and 'this, meaning what maharaji and the premies and EV and the whole sordid mission now looks and feels like.
it would look very, very different.
first of all, maharaji himself does not use 'the knowledge'. he doesnt meditate. he is not remotely like the state you have chosen to describe as resulting from the techniques. you talk about 'your true self'. is that what he shows everyone? well if that's true, and he's the leader showing how to live in that state, i hope he dies soon or goes to prison, because if the world turned into all people operating like he does, not even a family could last long enough to bring children into the next generation. the human race would die out in a war of ego, selfishness, consumption, profligate waste, uncaring, using, abusing, conscience-less self gratification and ennui.
you talk about respect. maharaji has none, for anyone. when his wife nearly died, three times, from an aneurism, a weak spot in her blood vessel, ballooning out, and then bursting, and flooding blood in her brain, he adressed her as if it had been something she did deliberately, 'to' them all. as if she could have decided not to do it!

we all were full premies, here. we all know the same stuff you know. we all realized knowledge. we gave our trust. we did what we were told to. we believed our teacher/master/guru/leader/salesman/ we went without sleep, without adequate food, medical care, dental care, shut out our families, left jobs, educations, crossed the world and came back, believing this guy and his promise.

until our bodies, our true selves, told us clearly to stop it. our own senses told us not to believe this, not to do this, anymore.
and it was only then that we began to put together the true story of what this guy has been doing with our trust, all these years.
he asked for money to spread knowledge to the world. we gave money. but thats not what it got used for.
it went into his pocket for him to waste on his own appetites while we starved.

he is a monstrosity. we made it possible. it is our responsibility to the world to unmake what we created of him. without us, our money, our belief, our willingness, our work, without premies, he is nothing.
if we take back all we gave, he will again be nothing.
it will be good for him.
if knowledge works, as you say, he will know utterly and for certain, then. if it is truly all one needs in life, then he certainly will have the only thing he needs.

thats how his father did it. it was good enough for him.
the knowledge is not his. he can take it to the world,if he wants to, yes, by all means, do so. but it is not his. if i want to teach the whole world about the alphabet, i can do that. but its not my alphabet. no one owns it. could i justify and defend collecting millions of dollars from people i taught the alphabet to, telling them i have to take it to the whole world, and instead i keep spending that money on watches and jets and yachts and mansions and
jewelry for my wife and my kids and the sexiest of my female students....
and i tell them they must never reveal what i taught them to anyone else, only i can do that---
and then they find out that it is taught for free in whole continents for nothing, its common knowledge, no secret, and that they have wasted 30 years of their life doing whaat i said and believing what i said...
yes they would be furious. with good reason.

here we are, alex.

you've been 'had'. so have we all.

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Date: Sun, Mar 25, 2001 at 12:02:56 (GMT)
From: SB
Email: None
To: janet
Subject: Good Post!! Thanks. NT
Message:
NT
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Date: Sat, Mar 24, 2001 at 04:46:57 (GMT)
From: salam
Email: None
To: alex
Subject: Dear Alex
Message:
Very nice of you to remind us of how many fingers we have. I noticed that you have been doing a lot of thinking lately. You really should do more meditation instead.

Just to remind you that there is a web atiquiete that goes like this: In My Opinion (IMO) or In My Humble Opinion (IMHO) or In MY Not So Humble Opinion (IMNSHO), well I can go on if you want.

So, you think we are a bunch of loosers? Never mind. Hang around and keep posting for a while and see what happens,

Salam the ex-looser

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Date: Fri, Mar 23, 2001 at 22:50:24 (GMT)
From: G
Email: None
To: alex
Subject: enjoy your life
Message:
'i was in the ashram for the first 2 years after that the ashram left, i did not leave it.'

After that, did you move back in the ashram? If not, why?

'...i did not really get the maharaji trip.'

And now you do 'get the maharaji trip'? I take it that you agree that it's a trip.

'mass hysteria'

This hysteria was fostered and encouraged by Rawat.

'... he was not perfect ...'

Ok, name three ways in which he is not perfect.

'...never really experienced knowledge...don't have a clear understanding of knowledge...'

And you think you do? Why don't you capitalize it? Rawat does. Are you saying it's less than what he bills it as?

'a bunch of scared, confused, needy career oriented people'

Well if Rawat were such a good teacher (Oh, I forgot, now he's not a teacher) you would think they wouldn't be so scared, confused, and needy. Suppose there were a math teacher and all his students were failing, wouldn't it be reasonable to suspect that there's something wrong with his teaching? Like maybe he's teaching them that 2 + 2 = 5. Why blame the students? No wonder he says he's not a teacher.

'...not afraid to address the issues...'

For instance?

'when you point your one finger the three remaining ones point to yourself'

Just because I'm not perfect doesn't mean that I don't have the right to point out Mr. Rawats faults, especially since he's pretending to be more enlightened than he is. Sometimes my faults are pointed out and it does me good. This is such a thing as constructive criticism and it applies to him.

'did it work as promised?'

No, he billed it as the 'Knowledge of God' that he could show, not just as a way to calm down, feel good, or become sedated. He said 'I can show you God.' The sounds were billed as 'Celestial Harmonies', 'Divine Music' and such, the light, which I don't think is essentially different than normal sensations of light, as 'the Divine Light of God', the feeling of breathing as the 'Holy Name'. Sure, it feels good to breath, but that's not because of a Mr. Prem Rawat. I find that focusing on my breath works better if I combine it with stretching, which he has never recommended. That's right, he's never recommended any kind of physical exercise to feel better. If fact, I exercised less because of him.

'walk away'

That's code for 'Don't expose him.' That boat don't float.

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Date: Sun, Mar 25, 2001 at 12:25:12 (GMT)
From: SB
Email: None
To: G
Subject: Only FEW: Said by the Master...
Message:
Don't you get it? If you think you are one of those few you are truly especial! Alex is one.

Mahalard said many times (I have a casette) that only few will realize what k really is. Humble...(bullshit) BTW, that is a good way to feep ANY devotee. Moving the carrot I call it. Try harder, give more, do more and then you may get it. Be devoted, centered, clear, as David Smith put it. To day I call it empty. That is where you are gone. When a premie becomes a puppet she/he can't see who is moving the strings; the premie is too busy surrendering, being a devotee. Lard tells premies NOT to QUESTION, right? I wonder why. After all, only few are going to get it.

In that program (mentioned casette) and I was there, maharaji rawat created a great impression in people's minds because I remember people were talking and talking about it after the program ended. It created fear that one may not get it; the vegetable satsang comes in mind as a deterrant to leave... It was for me to keep on trying at least, even if I felt I may be wrong and what I was experiencing wasn't it. More humility was needed then. I was a devotee after all, like Alex. Mahalard clearly has said MANY times that to serve the master is the most important thing a premie can do. What do premies like Alex think all the garbage they hear from mahalard goes? It sinks in and well. Then you talk and behave just as he wants you too...Alex is one of 'them' alright. Sucked.

HOW SUBLIME! THE GURU IS FAKE and is using premies energies to sustaing himself and in a gross way brainwashes people to become his servants and we are whinning? Yeap, Alex got it right. NOT!

Hi G!

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Date: Fri, Mar 23, 2001 at 21:43:20 (GMT)
From: suchabanana
Email: None
To: alex
Subject: same techs available - w/o bogus guru 'strings'
Message:
Dear Alex:

Some of us have seen inner light for 40+ years, heard the inner sounds ditto, years before ever hearing of Prem Rawat, and some of us have found all 4 techs readily available elsewhere in books (e.g. Vedic, Buddhist, Sufi texts, etc.) and presented by common unassuming yoga instructors - recognizing that there is NO need whatsoever for worship/dedication to a false [or any] guru -- especially someone who used distortions, manipulations, and enforced a false monopoly -- r.e. these basic meditation techs, and people's OWN personal experiences based on their OWN sincerity -- to enrich himself and his family and suck premies dry - while gorging on their diverted non-profit donations like an unscrupulous blood-sucking leech, to the tune of more than $100 million.

Prem also committed a witnessed criminal 'hit and run' where he killed someone and split the scene and had a premie take the blame (in India, as related by Dettmers), and he personally ordered Donner/DLM to expedite the aiding and abetting of top DLM fugitive aides/mahatmas from the law, who had conspired and then tried to murder reporter Pat Halley in Detroit in August, 1973 --

Alex, that's just for starters...

You know, some of us have been meditators for about 30 years, while others bagged it finally. To each their own. However, 'you know who' is clearly unworthy to masquerade as anyone's Master. For some people, it takes a certain amount of detachment from the cult, and the resources of information now available at EPO and some other websites - to get the whole picture about the unholy scams and coverups that have been perpetrated by the Rawat gang abusing the Name of God. Prem is just a bhaktijuju guru combo of Jim Jones, Bakker, Swaggert, Rajneesh-Osho-Tojo, LR Hubbard KGB, Bring'em plenty and Bring'em Young, Blubber Free John-Adidan, Sly Baba, Savanarola, and big-bucks payola.

And let no one ever again confuse one's own inner experiences of whatever meditation techs with the propaganda and deluded Napoleonic ramblings of a callous, grossly Maya-addicted guru/aka Master. I actually forgave the guy, but I certainly don't forget, and he and EVI [formerly DLM] must at least be held accountable for the harboring of pedophiles, the huge amounts of diverted non-profit donation money, and other wrongdoings. The fundamental facts presented on this site are not bs -- they're true. Check 'em all out yourself - like I did (and others).

If one wishes to believe in a higher power [aka God] and meditate - no problem with me or lots of others here, whatsoever. In fact, Good Luck - and enjoy your life, too...

Peace and lentils,

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Date: Fri, Mar 23, 2001 at 21:43:13 (GMT)
From: Jerry
Email: None
To: alex
Subject: enjoy your life
Message:
to conclude i think that when someone receives knowledge the first question is did it work as promised?

That might be your advice but it sure isn't Maharaji's. As far as Maharaji is concerned, Knowledge 'works' for everybody. He contends that those who say it doesn't just can't accept it. Do you agree?

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Date: Sat, Mar 24, 2001 at 04:53:45 (GMT)
From: alex
Email: None
To: Jerry
Subject: enjoy your life
Message:
hi jerry,

thanks for your reply.
its a tricky question. and it is very old. krishna tells arjun 'drawing back the restless and fidgety mind from all the objects after which it runs, he should repeatedly fix it on god.' 6/26 and arjun pretty much gave up. so krishna says again ' the mind is restless no doubt, and difficult to curb, but it can be brought under control by repeated practice and by the exercise of dispassion.' 6/ 35
so who is wrong and who is right?
i think knowledge works but it takes a lot of effort at least it does for me. so i am not surprised if someone says it does not work and gives up. and then they would be right that it did not work for them.

alex

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Date: Sat, Mar 24, 2001 at 17:27:45 (GMT)
From: Jerry
Email: None
To: alex
Subject: I think you're wrong, Alex
Message:
And I also think you judge those who give up unfairly. How do you know how much effort we put in? It seems to me that you have a pre-conceived notion that Knowledge does work, provided that the proper effort is applied. I use to buy into this (and it was what kept me going for the longest time), but after 18 years of trying just one more time with just a little more effort, I think I can say, in all honesty, that I gave Knolwedge a 'fair chance', to quote Maharaji. So, if I were you, I would reconsider this idea you have that the proper amount of effort pays off.

What I would also like you consider is -- if this is the Knowledge of God, how come it 'works' for some and not for others? Why would God create me, fill me with a longing to know him, and then deny me the fulfillment of that longing if Knowledge is the means to achieve it? Because of a lack of effort, Alex? The effort is in the longing as far as I can tell. If that longing is not fulfilled, then obviously, you're looking in the wrong place. It won't matter how much effort you put into it, it's like trying to squeeze water from a stone. But try telling that to Maharaji.

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Date: Fri, Mar 23, 2001 at 21:21:34 (GMT)
From: cq
Email: None
To: alex
Subject: re 'finger pointing, whining and unresolved anger'
Message:
you're absolutely right, there is a lot of 'finger pointing, whining and unresolved anger' on the Forum, but I have to point out that your use of the word 'whining' indicates (at least to me) that you apparently think people shouldn't be allowed to express their dissatisfaction. No doubt the likes of George W Bush, Tony Blair and Saddam Hussein (inter alia) would like to claim that all criticism of their policies is nothing but 'whining'.

There is a lot to be said, however, of being aware of the 'victim' mentality. Perhaps the innate dependency-creating aspect of M's message has a lot to answer for, as far as that is concerned.

Or would I be yet another victim of transference in thinking that the dependence on him (that he undeniably encourages) is somehow my fault? Well, anything 'negative' about the cult is always someone else's fault, isn't it?

Perhaps it wouldn't be too uncharitable to think of such symptoms of post-cult/guru/master involvement as being an unpleasant, yet evidently real part of distancing oneself from a one-time leader who now denies ever having been a leader (according to Maharaji's website).

The unresolved anger. Now that's another matter.

Who do you think ex-premies should get angry at?

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Date: Fri, Mar 23, 2001 at 18:33:05 (GMT)
From: Jethro
Email: None
To: alex
Subject: enjoy your life
Message:
Alex,
Firstly I am not one of those who 'pratice knowledge'. In fact I stopped using the term while I was still a follower of prem rowatt. So I can't really answer your questions.


But I do have a couple of questions for you.

1, What do YOU mean by 'practicing knowledge'?.. in fact what do YOU mean by 'knowledge'?(This is not intended to be facecious, I really think the above phrases are used differently by different people.)

2, You say that you realize that m is not perfect and is human. So, how do you feel about him protecting a paedophille and his complete silence on the whole subject?

3, you say'as a matter of fact most people today who are considering themselves active premies also don't have a clear understanding of knowledge.'
Now that is a really interesting statement. Please tell me how you know these people don't have a clear understanding?

Thanks Jethro

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Date: Fri, Mar 23, 2001 at 19:42:50 (GMT)
From: alex
Email: None
To: Jethro
Subject: enjoy your life
Message:
hi jethro,

thanks for your reply,

maybe check my post to 'way' about questions one and three.
as for question two i don't think m. encourages this type of behavior. what has been done by élan vital or m. to help resolve this case i don't know. if there is an investigation by the police and élan vital and m. is cooperating i would consider it sufficient. if m. is expected to make statements about all the crazy things premies have done over the years i think he would be very very busy. not to mention that he does not seem to have the greatest track record in his own personal life. and if i were in his position i would probably prefer to focus on my stated mission which is to make knowledge available.

alex

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Date: Fri, Mar 23, 2001 at 19:51:17 (GMT)
From: Pat Conlon
Email: None
To: alex
Subject: enjoy your life, alex
Message:
Hi Alex, you said: ''...and if i were in his position i would probably prefer to focus on my stated mission which is to make knowledge available.''

I am one of those who still practice knowledge and have for 30 years and enjoy it a lot. But I don't think M is doing a very good job of ''making K available'' in the west.

He may be successful in India and elsewhere among the Indian ex-pats but I think as long as he is pushing the importance of focussing on the ''Master'' in the west that this will actually put sensible poeple off.

Ditto everything you said about the current PWKs. I think they are like that because their focus is not practice but the Master. For me it is very uncomfortable to have a ''Master'' especially somone who, as you say, ''does not seem to have the greatest track record in his own personal life.''

I prefer to get high with a little help from my friends.

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Date: Sat, Mar 24, 2001 at 04:51:04 (GMT)
From: sivan
Email: -
To: all
Subject: what's the fuss?
Message:
If u ask most people - they experience k without any techs.
I think most ,who I ask, see light.
Nearly everyone hears the old cricket sound.
Anyone who does basic yoga gets the breath thing.
Most of us us old premies were going thru' the hormonal upheaval of puberty and all the attached psycho/mania ( for some).
It was really easy to put it all down to the magical- feels like finally growing up to see thru' it.
About 20 years ago, someone said to me- being into a cult or drugs stops your development during those years and your ability to mature. I couldn't see it at time , but see the cult disability aspect now.
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Date: Fri, Mar 23, 2001 at 18:07:08 (GMT)
From: Way
Email: None
To: alex
Subject: Alex - questions and answers
Message:
Alex,

Will you answer these three questions:

(1)What do you mean by saying that 'Knowledge works'?

(2)You seem to be claiming that you can judge whether or not somebody else is experiencing Knowledge? How can you do that?

(3)Do you believe that people who are students of Mr. Rawat are the only people who are having that experience?

I will try to answer two of your questions:

(1) About why some ex-premies are what you call 'obsessed with Maharaji.' First, I think that is a bad term. We are not so much obsessed with Maharaji as we are simply very concerned about what we see as the con job that he is perpetrating on people. We want to let people know about his lies. We feel that when he instructs people to accept him as the Master, he is doing much more harm than good. People need to be empowered with truth and consciousness and joy, yes indeed, but they need to find their connection directly and not through Mr. Rawat or any of the other hundreds of false gurus out there. This is our perspective. This is why we don't just walk away and forget about it. Even if you have a different perspective, I think you can understand that, yes?

(2) What is the experience of Knowledge like for an ex? I meditated for about two years before I heard about Guru Maharaj Ji. Then I practiced the four techniques for about five years. Then, while I was still living in the ashram, I gave away my baragon and abandoned all the hand and tongue postures of Knowledge (considering them a distraction rather than a help) and simply concentrated within myself to the silence and the light. I rejected Rawat as the Master about four years ago. The experience I have of 'Knowledge' or of my own inner soul, whatever you want to call it, has not varied in all those years. The quiet is the same, the light is the same, the peace is the same, the joy is the same.

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Date: Fri, Mar 23, 2001 at 19:22:54 (GMT)
From: alex
Email: None
To: Way
Subject: Alex - questions and answers
Message:
way,

thanks for your reply,

first your first and third question.
funny enough you already answered them in your second paragraph. you seem to be enjoying your inner experience so it seems knowledge does work for you. knowledge being your own true inner self and you being able to connect with it. never mind the technicalities of techniques.
since you are not actively involved with maharaji it seems obvious that you can have an experience whether you are with m. or without and that seems to answer the question about exclusivity.
how do i judge whether somebody has an experience or not? for me somebody who is in touch with his true nature starts to express kindness, openness, respect, joy etc. not because he or she is trying to but they start to emanate naturally. like a flower that is at the peak of bloom will emanate a fragrance. actually that is what i feel devotion is as well. devotion does not manifest for somebody but is a natural consequence of clarity and manifests without judgment. it as a wonderful state of being.

alex

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Date: Sat, Mar 24, 2001 at 05:39:38 (GMT)
From: Bazza
Email: None
To: alex
Subject: So by your definition......
Message:
for me somebody who is in touch with his true nature starts to express kindness, openness, respect, joy etc. not because he or she is trying to but they start to emanate naturally. like a flower that is at the peak of bloom will emanate a fragrance. actually that is what i feel devotion is as well. devotion does not manifest for somebody but is a natural consequence of clarity and manifests without judgment. it as a wonderful state of being.(emphasis mine)

....NONE of the other premies who post here are actually experiencing THAT feeling, THAT love. Kinda sad isn't it?

Just wondering how long your ambivalent attitude will hold up when the quesions here start to hit home a bit deeper. We've seen it happen many times - premies come in exuding love and light and end up calling us all the names under the sun when the real truth about maharajji starts getting under their skins

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Date: Fri, Mar 23, 2001 at 20:12:46 (GMT)
From: Cynthia
Email: None
To: alex
Subject: Alex , Alex, Alex....
Message:
Alex said:

how do i judge whether somebody has an experience or not? for me somebody who is in touch with his true nature starts to express kindness, openness, respect, joy etc. not because he or she is trying to but they start to emanate naturally. like a flower that is at the peak of bloom will emanate a fragrance. actually that is what i feel devotion is as well. devotion does not manifest for somebody but is a natural consequence of clarity and manifests without judgment. it as a wonderful state of being.

Alex, your statements are concepts (remember those?). How do you know everything about everyone's experience of so-called Knowledge and wrap them into a bundle and make a statement such as you did above? Maharaji doesn't have a special key. He lied to us. That's only one reason we very boldly point the finger at him and ask 'What are/have you been doing for the past 30 years?'

Some ex-premies do practice various types of meditation, including the techinques which M offers. Btw, HE doesn't own them, they are ancient techniques. When I was involved in the cult, I was an ashram premie and I was in full devotional mode. Yes, I practiced the K, the techniques and had experiences. So what? So what? That's immaterial to the question at hand.

Do you know M personally? Have you ever seen him in action behind the facade of a staged performance? Have you ever questioned his motives, and btw, do you know he bought a $7 million yacht, just for fun, but off the backs of premies' efforts? Do you still entertain the belief he is Lord of the Universe, Perfect Master, etc.? Do you give him money? If not, why not? If so, why?

How do you reconcile a man (Maharaji, Prempal Singh Rawat) as being a man? No ''man or woman'' harbors a pedophile, a malicious, sick individual, such as ''Mahatma (great soul)'' Jageo, who sexually abused the children of his devotees and did nothing! Maharaji has known about his for years and has brushed it off as if it is meaningless. Well, sexually abusing children is far from meaningless and Maharaji and Jagdeo still have not admitted publicly or at least privately, to Jagdeo's victims that they were seriously injured by an agent of M.

And, why blame the messengers? That's all the ex-premies are. Yes, we make fun of him, to allay our grief at his outrageous behavior and betrayals over the many years we devoted our lives to him.

Neither Michael Dettmers nor Michael Donners have anything to gain (quite the opposite) by posting here and revealing first hand, witnessed accounts of Maharaji's ammoral, immoral, and criminal behavior over the years.

Did you know that Maharaji hit and run (killed a premie) and got away with it in India? Or is he exempt from all criminal behavior because he gives you a feeling of becoming kind, and opening like a flower.

You know, I have a life which is quite good. I enjoy it, too. Does that surprise you? The world of Maharaji is extremely closed compared to the options and experiences we can have without being in a personality cult. The mind is not the devil as M continues to say.

That said, I suggest you go back and read all about the pedophile, Jagdeo and what he did to Susan and Abi, and by many accounts, many, many other children, some who are still so emotionally damaged (even in adulthood) cannot come forward. Are you aware what child sexual abuse does to a person throughout their life? Especially when committed by a person in the positino of power in which Maharaji placed Jagdeo?

Btw, Jagdeo still is living free, has not had to answer for his crimes to legal authorities, nor has he ever apologized to his victims. Why? To protect Maharaji and especially himself. Pedophiles tend to not have consciences. They have a mutually exclusive pact IMO: Maharaji has never acknowledged to the victims of Jagdeo that they were wronged, and they have received no compensation of ANY KIND, to allay their lifelong suffering. Jagdeo lives in India, probably still perping kids, and what has Maharaji done? NOTHING! What do you think of that?

I personally don't accept that Maharaji is even a teacher--I think he's too screwed up personally to be anyone's teacher. Based on eyewitness accounts posted here, he's a drunk, has abused his power by using female premies as his sex toys, has harbored a sex offender, and, as I recently discovered from Dettmers, used to spoon feed Cognac to his infants and toddlers, Yes, his OWN CHILDREN!

In my opinion Maharaji gets absolutely no credit for any experience you or anyone else has ever had with K, because he is a liar and a fraud. It's in YOU, Alex. It has nothing to do with Maharaji--he's just a crutch.

Cynthia

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Date: Fri, Mar 23, 2001 at 19:57:08 (GMT)
From: Pat Conlon
Email: None
To: alex
Subject: Alex - questions and answers - you're an idealist
Message:
You said practicing K makes you want to ''express kindness, openness, respect, joy...''

Join the ranks of the idealists here. There aren't too many left among the PWKs. There are a few but most have become so focussed on loving the ''Master'' that they have little time to love one another or to spread that love. Most of them don't really want to propagate K. And those who do have been silenced by M and can bo longer speak from their hearts byt have to do it with ''propagation packages.''

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Date: Fri, Mar 23, 2001 at 20:04:52 (GMT)
From: Pat Conlon
Email: pdconlon@yahoo.com
To: alex
Subject: Alex - PS - ''a better alternative''
Message:
The alternative, if you are not 100% happy with M or the PWKs, is to teach Knowledge yourself. You sound like a wonderful, warm and sensible person and would make a terrific teacher. I intend to do it if any of my friends are interested.

I spent 17 years not telling anybody about K because I was so ashamed of M and the PWKs. But I enjoy K and will share it with my loved ones.

Please feel free to email me if you want to. I wish you clarity, consciousness and contentment.

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Date: Fri, Mar 23, 2001 at 19:47:50 (GMT)
From: Way
Email: None
To: alex
Subject: Alex - more questions and answers
Message:
Alex,

Well, no, I could not have answered my own questions, because my questions were specifically what do YOU mean when you say 'Knowledge works.' I already know what I think.

However, from your response, I do start to understand your perspective, which does not seem to demand exclusivity to Rawat and those four particular techniques. And, if I am reading you correctly, what you mean by 'Knowledge works' is simply that a person enjoys the inner experience they get when practicing it.

Given what I now see as your perspective, I am afraid I have a little bad news for you. You are an extremely rotten mouthpiece for Prem Pal Rawat and I will have to report you to his authorities immediately. Let me remind you that Rawat's Knowledge is the Raj Vidya, the place where the finite merges with the Infinite. No mortal can reach this place deep within without devotion to the living Master. That's quite impossible. No one can even be taught the four techniques without the proper understanding about the absolute necessity for the living Master.

Gratious heavens, if we are to believe in your perspective, Alex, then all those premies who have been initiated by Satpal - (aka Bal Bhagwan Ji - see his website Manav Dharam) - they might also be able to realize this perfect Knowledge, without Prempal's assistance in any form. You don't mean to say that, do you???? Gee whiz, what kind of a devotee are you anyway? I regret to say this, but I think your smart card should be revoked. I do hope you are planning on attending the Amaroo festivities - they might get you back on track.

By the way, Alex, you seem to have gotten a slightly wrong impression about the reasons that ex-premies reject Rawat. It is not because he is a normal human being and therefore imperfect (which is, as you say, rather forgiveable); but that he is an outright fraud and a pathological liar and he behaves in a manner that no human being should ever behave in.

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Date: Fri, Mar 23, 2001 at 17:12:31 (GMT)
From: Gregg
Email: None
To: alex
Subject: the 'better alternative'
Message:
Premies mostly agree on the meaning of life, ex-premies don't. We find out our own truths, and are happier doing so.

This site has many purposes. One of them is to encourage premies like you to learn who Maharaj Ji really is. Learning about the nature of this fraudulent 'Master,' we'd hope you might honestly confront your reasons for clinging to this belief system.

Many of us still meditate (though few of us still use the 4 techniques), but feel greater freedom and fulfillment now that we no longer follow the religion of Maharajism. Really, now, aren't you ready to graduate from spiritual kindergarten?

Sorry if I sound elitist and patronizing, but, knowing what you do about Maharaji (if you've cruised around this site at all), I can't understand how you could give credence to anything he says.

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Date: Fri, Mar 23, 2001 at 17:02:58 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: alex
Subject: The ol' Premie Mexican Standoff
Message:
Hey, fella, I just dare you to try reconcile these two statements:

'i think that most of you guys out there never really experienced knowledge. and as a matter of fact most people today who are considering themselves active premies also don't have a clear understanding of knowledge. so i am staying away from all of that. the current organization is mostly a bunch of scared, confused, needy career oriented people.'

with:

'i would like to remind you that it seems there is a lot of finger pointing and whining and unresolved anger out there and i think it still applies that when you point your one finger the three remaining ones point to yourself.'

I love it!

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Date: Fri, Mar 23, 2001 at 17:47:48 (GMT)
From: alex
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: The ol' Premie Mexican Standoff
Message:
hi jim,

good point,
u did not really answer my question about practising knowledge though.
to your point. i like to distinguish between facts and judgement.
facts come from observations, judgements from our reaction to those facts.
just like it may be a fact that maharaji does all the things people claim he does what is my judgement of him?
should i condemm him or apriciate the fact that he gives knowledge to people and inspires them. once i accept he is human just like you and me i prefer to apriciate his efforts. just like i appriciate anybodys efforts that is sincere ( as much or as little as they are and that is for them to know ). and maybe forgive his shortcomings, not overlook but forgive. because it is not different for me. when i can start to accept my shortcomings i am the one who benefits.
so i have no problem in beeing critical, sarcastic etc. so long as i don't start to judge.

alex

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Date: Sat, Mar 24, 2001 at 01:42:03 (GMT)
From: la-ex
Email: None
To: alex
Subject: Alex baby!With that sidestepping, you could work
Message:
for EV!

First, you ignore the point Jim makes(well, you acknowledged his point, then proceed to completely ignore it).

Then, you say it's ok to be sarcastic and critical, as long as you don't judge??

Third, you say that M's bad actions only show that he is human, just like all of us?

I don't know ANYBODY who acts like that asshole acts towards others...
If you believe in something like the concept of 'karma', do you ever wonder what kind of 'karma' M is accruing?
Or is he the Master, and above it all??

Just wondering...

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Date: Fri, Mar 23, 2001 at 21:59:32 (GMT)
From: Jerry
Email: None
To: alex
Subject: I've got another question
Message:
Alex,

As far as you seem to care, Maharaji could be the biggest dickhead in the world, but you still 'appreciate' his efforts. Let me ask you this; how can somebody be such a dickhead, yet at the same time be the guy whose imparting the experience of 'true self'? It just doesn't seem to add up.

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Date: Fri, Mar 23, 2001 at 16:51:19 (GMT)
From: Nigel
Email: None
To: alex
Subject: The return of Mr Get-a-Life!
Message:
and i think it still applies that when you point your one finger the three remaining ones point to yourself

You said it. Think about it.

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Date: Fri, Mar 23, 2001 at 22:18:12 (GMT)
From: Helen
Email: None
To: Nigel
Subject: Yes but here is the worse type yet
Message:
Yup. Too true. Actually I liked Alex's post (it seemed more sincere) than the variety I've seen here of late. Here's the type (much exagerated, I know):

I am a beautiful blonde lawyer who lives in the foothills of L.A. and I am fabulously successful. And yes, I am a premie. My husband is a handsome and brilliant cardiologist, and did I mention fabulously successful? We have had knowledge for 23 years and it is not inhibited our ability to be fabulously successful in the world. We contribute to charity in our spare time and have 3 beautiful, brilliant and fabulously successful children. We are hoping to retire to our beautiful vacation home in Aspen where we plan to teach yoga, and make goatmilk spa products. Our lives are happy and blissful and we have so much to be grateful for. This knowledge has never impeded with our education or our ability to interact with and do business with a broad cross-section of people. And did I mention that we are fabulously successful?

I feel sorry for all you poor ex-es who obviously take the past way too seriously. You too, could be like me, and Blake (my husband) and have it all--all you've ever dreamed of. Well, go back to your little whiny party, I am going to get a facial and pedicure at Roxanna's Day Spa down on Rodeo Drive and then buy my spring wardrobe. Toodles, losers!

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Date: Sat, Mar 24, 2001 at 12:39:17 (GMT)
From: JHB
Email: None
To: Helen
Subject: Great post, but you spelt loosers wrong! (nt)
Message:
LOL!
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Date: Sat, Mar 24, 2001 at 14:57:38 (GMT)
From: Tami Rainbow
Email: None
To: JHB
Subject: Great post, but you spelt loosers wrong!
Message:
I notised that too. I don't see what wuz rong with that post anyway, why is Helen making fun of her? I am blond too and hope to be fabulus too, by His Grace. ANd get a sucksexful husband.

Love
Tami
(Are u rich???)

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Date: Fri, Mar 23, 2001 at 17:04:58 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Nigel
Subject: Fuck! I should have read you first, Nige
Message:
Although, why you think it's so important to post what I'm going to post just before I get a chance to is beyond me.
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Date: Fri, Mar 23, 2001 at 17:07:17 (GMT)
From: Nigel
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Fuck! I should have read you first, Nige
Message:
You're not paying attention are you? Saves forum space if we post on behalf of others.
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Date: Fri, Mar 23, 2001 at 18:51:20 (GMT)
From: Pat Conlon
Email: None
To: Nigel et al
Subject: Fuck! I'm glad I read all of your posts first
Message:
You all anticipated what I was going to say and I would have been taking up precious space. Thanks you. I'll let you guys divine my thoughts and post for me from now on.
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Date: Sat, Mar 24, 2001 at 05:40:56 (GMT)
From: cerise
Email: None
To: Pat Conlon
Subject: This has been a great thread guys!
Message:
this has been a fabulous thread. thanks!
I really like Alex, you must be a cute guy! but enough of that he he. As usual with the responses the cream rises to the top.
Alex, some hints about your replyers...
ignore salem who just stabs and pokes at everybody, skip a lot of Cynthias lines, too long and tedious repeats of past posts, laugh loudly at Jim who'll run rings around you if you argue! Listen with heart to Pat cos that's where he speaks from. helen sounds pretty bloody confident of herself! Nigel seems quite a laugh but i don't know him or any of the others so won't comment.
This is like a school essay project, sifting and sorting.
so alex, thanks for your messages i really liked the tone and feeling, you seem to me to be really balanced about pwk and the ex pwk and K. People like you make me remember that one day I want to try this damn thing for myself!!!
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Date: Sat, Mar 24, 2001 at 17:01:40 (GMT)
From: Katie H
Email: None
To: cerise
Subject: we have to repeat ourselves, Cerise
Message:
Sometimes I wish we didn't - sometimes I feel like I'm VERY boring - but new people come onto this forum all the time. And sometimes, people don't 'hear' replies unless they are made directly to them.

Speaking of repetition and Alex's post - I've read what seems like hundreds of posts like Alex's - and they all say pretty much the same thing. Many of them have included the same 'finger-pointing' example - you know, the three fingers pointing back at you. Not saying Alex wasn't sincere, but he's incorrect in thinking that what he had to say hadn't been said on here before - even in the last couple of weeks.

Re K - I'm kind of surprised that you have NOT 'tried it out' yet. Sounds like you've watched and still watch more than enough videos to qualify. And re the darshan line - I'm surprised that you haven't been through one of those yet if you've been to Amaroo for events.

Take care,
Katie H.

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Date: Sat, Mar 24, 2001 at 13:38:25 (GMT)
From: Abi
Email: None
To: cerise
Subject: this damn thing
Message:
Hmmmmm.

I think Cynthia is brilliant btw.

Are you going to Amaroo?

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Date: Sat, Mar 24, 2001 at 13:58:45 (GMT)
From: cerise
Email: None
To: Abi
Subject: she may be
Message:
brilliant I just thought that it was a repeat rave if you know what I mean. I think this forum is getting too popular for people to repeat themselves.

No, i have no smartcard or K so Amaroo is off limits for me (sigh!)

seeyaAb!
c

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Date: Sat, Mar 24, 2001 at 08:43:16 (GMT)
From: Sherlock Holmes
Email: None
To: cerise
Subject: Young Lady
Message:
You are most entertaining and charming. However something seems amiss to both myself and Watson.

Your knowledge of the cult seems a little too comprehensive for the daughter of a dope smoking spaced out premie from New Zealand. I also am wondering what the fascination is in hanging around a bunch of old fogies like us? How come your 'DAD? seems to know every premie in the Western world and yet headed for NZ back in '74?
I do enjoy your posts very much and please don't leave until you're ready but won't you come clean ?

Me thinks that like myself you are a fictional character.

Could it be that your Dad is even the big Daddy? Just a stab in the dark.

Hal

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Date: Sat, Mar 24, 2001 at 14:50:43 (GMT)
From: cerise
Email: None
To: Sherlock Holmes
Subject: Yes kind sire?
Message:
he he, what are you smoking in your pipe these days Mr Holmes??!
you must be old fogies if you think 'hanging round here' is a big deal. I hang around at least 8 sites a week. Tell you what, lets talk my favorite site, it's called Baluchitherium: My Humble Edward Van Halen Tribute. Now I totally love the guy who put this one together (better than the officila VH site) and Holmes I can tell you everything about everything that Van Halen have done or do. What would you suspect me of being on that forum, Wolfgang Van Halen? (Ed's son)

But back to your inquisition, I've been 'hanging around' you premie lot for ALL my life and have liked M for most of it.
I just don't see the need or point for the mindless corporate zeal I've seen and (mostly) heard about over the last ten years. Mum and Dad have been really upset by some fuckwits with K and they feel M has saved them from that holy church shit. As I got older they talked to me like 'What are you going to do C?' I said, 'I'm waiting that's what, cos I'm having a ball in life right now and damn sure I'm not joining any cult or club. I would like to trey K for myself though no matter wht everyone tells me here. It's like gossip, on the VH site about a new song, I have to hear the damn thing myself before I KNOW, I don't care what anyone says about anyone, it's my life and I'm finding out for myself.

As for the line..'daughter of a dope smoking spaced out premie from New Zealand'. where do you get that from? dad went to NZ then came here. The spaced out premie dope cadet is in your imagination again. He's a very together dude thanks!
If you're trying to get him to write to you, you'll have to wait, he's off to Amaroo this Monday and won't be back until after April.

Yea my knowledge of the cult is very big, I've probably met and had curry with more instructors, honchos, groovers, naughty pwk, holy pwk, freaked out pwk than you've ever seen. I've hung around M a bit when he was walking around the Amaroo site checking it out years ago, he was really funny and very nice to me, I don't think it was darshan like that, he was just a normal dude and the same height as I was then!!
so yea, what would you like to know about next? I can cover the early years in London, NZ and all activity here since the 70's, I admit most of the information is mum and dad's but I refuse to be treated like an imposter just because I was too young to become famous pwk's like all you are. You'd be surprised to know how many of US there are, I know over 20 pwk kids who are my friends and we could tell you stories (mainly of our parents) that would make your pipe smoke straighten up real fast! I think i better find the pic of me (in stroller) at Hans Jayanti 1979 (you can see the crowds around the place) and then post one of me now except that you'll think I'm showing off.
I don't know if 'suspicion' is rife here but I'd like it to be known that of the 8 websites I belong to this is the only one where my identity has been questioned. What does that mean?? search me sherlock!
By the way the single JUMP by Van Halen is 119 on the ALL TIME BEST songs ever recorded, pretty bloody amazing eh? Edward wanted to make the keyboard intro 20 minutes long but the record company said no-one would buy it. Edward said recently that no-one outside of family has ever heard his BEST work cos it isn't 'commercial'. What a suckface shallow world. They said at school'What's a chick like you following a guitar hero for, Madonna not good enough? Well folks, Madonna is the QUEEN!!! and I was brought up on her as well, and Kylie our own Aussie Princess!! BTW: dad is a very good guitarist and he knows heaps of musos, some very famous ones, he used to film bands in Sydney.What do you want to know next Sherlock? I know about almost EVERYTHING!!! Don't worry, dad said that after Am2001 he'll probably come back and speak to the forum, he told me people will accuse me of being him - and as usual he's right!

Sorry for raving but there's no more posts to me so I'm off to icq now because my frind mindbinder is predicting an all out middle eastern war soon because Saddamm H is making a Jerusalem Liberation Army of 20 Divisions!! He (mb) reckons there'll be a huge war between Arabs and Jews very very soon that could become WW3 cos the chinese are talking to Iran about stuff. So, I wouldn't take anything spoken here too seriously, it ain't that important to the BIG picture!!
Thanks for the kind words Sherlock and I don't care who you are (as long as your nice to me!!!)
lol
C

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Date: Sat, Mar 24, 2001 at 17:24:20 (GMT)
From: Hal (Sherlock )
Email: None
To: cerise
Subject: Ok I'm on the wrong track again !
Message:
Sorry ,

I thank you for your wonderful post and explanation.

I love your posts so I humbly beg you to stick around. If I wasn't an old fogie I'd be having fantasies about meeting you.

You are such a lovely personality to have here on the fogie forum.

Wishing you joy and continuing freedom.

Love
Steve Mulley aka hal

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Date: Sat, Mar 24, 2001 at 06:09:15 (GMT)
From: Pat Conlon
Email: None
To: cerise
Subject: Cerise, you sure have it figured out
Message:
You said Alex sounds like a good guy. I thought so too. You also said: ''People like you (Alex) make me remember that one day I want to try this damn thing for myself!!!''

You can find the actual techniques here on EPO or on websites about kriya yoga, raja yoga, jnana yoga or kundalini yoga (different names used by different people for the same thing.)

But the big thing with the kriyas (techniques) is that they are useless without what Rev Rawat calls Knowledge which is the vibe that comes from meditating. The Hindus call the vibe that is given when the techniques are shown shaktipat or energy transfer (contact high.)

Your mom and dad can probably show you how to meditate if they enjoy it. Rev Rawat makes lots of bucks out of keeping them secret and telling premies not to show people but I believe that it should be free and that we can show them to anyone we want to. Rawat turned something that was free and beautiful into a money-making religion. Ask you mom and dad to show you.

But that will still never make you a premie because the other big thing is darshan which I hope you never have because it is bad juju. That is when you see the guru as god because of the love and faith you have in him. That is the voodoo that we are all trying to recover from.

To me it is better to have faith in yourself and trust yourself. I never liked or trusted priests and others who tried to tell me they can show you god.

If we needed somebody else to show us god that means this universe is a nasty trick. We don't need anybody else except ourselves to be complete.

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Date: Sat, Mar 24, 2001 at 22:39:13 (GMT)
From: alex
Email: None
To: Pat Conlon
Subject: Cerise, you sure have it figured out
Message:
hi pat, cerise,

great posts.
last thing first.' if we needed somebody else to show us god. ' even if it is your mom or pop it is still somebody else if you want to know the techs. we just were not born with it and in a way it is very unusual. we expect our happiness to come through our actions externally. when we start going inside it is a radical turnaround, literally.
just a couple of things. whatever i say is about here and now. it is part of my own evoulution. so i am benefitting from it and the discussion that is taking place. so thanks to all of you. couple of points. knowledge is not beeing sold. i never paid money for it nor do i know of anybody who did. however it was never free. people used to wait for it for years and years. why? it is not just 4 techniques. incidentally i knew those too from books but it did not do me any good. why? i did not know that those were THE THING which brings me to my other point. pat you mention krya yoga. that is about the techniques. raja yoga is the complete buffet. everything included ( karma yoga, tantra yoga blah blah blah ) or to put it another way this is about life, everything included nothing excluded.
jnana yoga is about discrimination and understanding which is where i feel most people are unclear. to quote 'to think is gods gift to us, what we think about is our gift to ourselves'
and no, mind ( the great good ol devil? ) is not equal to thinking. which brings me to a point i think is crucial. all this stuff has come out of india and similar places ( i love lao tsu for example ). most translations have been inaccurate in as much that when people say bhakti in india they mean something very different than when people in the west say devotion. how do i know? i live with an indian person who is involved in translating texts and we have many many discussions about all that. actually even the big m. addressed the issue in the last event in portland. ( yes i was there and had a lot of fun ) devotion in the west has the implication of being blind. it is part of our judeo christian tradition which is IMHO very warped and gross. knowledge and everything associated with it i.e. life is subtle, delicate, is a dance. so easy to miss. we in the west want to measure, weigh, prove. anyway i don't want to ramble on. my spelling please forgive. i do run spell check but sometimes i forget. and my native tongue is not english.

have fun
alex

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Date: Sat, Mar 24, 2001 at 07:35:03 (GMT)
From: cerise
Email: None
To: Pat Conlon
Subject: well sort of, not quite
Message:
not really in fact!! I learned at school how to 'sound' like I know what's going on cos that's what get a pass in exams, I can appear to know but not really know.
I know the K techniques but nothing happens except I hear my mind chattering away like a monkey, it's an annoying feeling so I stop. This contact high sounds alright!!
I had darsan at hans J in florida with mum, he drove by her a few times. Do you think I felt something and want to get to know him better? Sometimes i feel like that, a kind of connection. On the videos I get a good buzz from him talking (when I'm not looking around at the guys in the room..) and other times he seems very insistent about stuff and really arrogant like he's a big time dude who knows and we don't.
you know what his favorite saying is???...

DON'T YOU KNOW??? and I feel like saying..'NO I don't!!!'
C

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Date: Sat, Mar 24, 2001 at 13:13:18 (GMT)
From: Abi
Email: None
To: cerise
Subject: contact high + Indian food =
Message:
Hi Cerise,

so you had 'darshan' in Florida. I thought you said you were two at the time...

About this 'contact high' associated with darshan. I'm sure if people touched Madonna/Beck/Elvis/Lennon/ etc they'd get high too. It's the star aura thing doncha know. If you were a celeb then maybe people would get high touching, being near you too.

Listen, I'm afraid I have to tell you that Rawat is in fact a mere human being. Which means he eats, sleeps, suffers the occassional bout of constipation, passes wind (maybe even when he's giving darshan), burps (again maybe even when giving darshan - I think it's called Holy Breath), probably looks at himself naked in the mirror and thinks 'gee whiz maybe I should cut back on eating so much', gets in bad moods and nags his wife, is nagged by wife, brushes his teeth, scratches himself, shaves, etc. Human, all too human.

What would you do if he farted when you were having darshan? Think about it, visualise it and then accept the reality that countless premies have in fact been there when the Lord of the Universe passed wind as they kissed his feet.


Abi

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Date: Sat, Mar 24, 2001 at 14:05:01 (GMT)
From: cerise
Email: None
To: Abi
Subject: sure i had darshan Abi, like I said
Message:
i was two at the time, Mum spent hours walking me around the site in my stroller. She passed M a few times and went all gooeyee.
i didn't do the line or anything but I'd like to see what it's like from my own view one day.
c
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Date: Sat, Mar 24, 2001 at 14:24:04 (GMT)
From: Abi
Email: None
To: cerise
Subject: whatever...
Message:
rrrrrrrrrr
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Date: Sat, Mar 24, 2001 at 10:07:57 (GMT)
From: Pat Conlon
Email: pdconlon@yahoo.com
To: cerise
Subject: Cerise, here are the answers to your questions
Message:
You said: I had darsan at hans J in florida with mum, he drove by her a few times. Do you think I felt something and want to get to know him better?

You may have picked up you mother's excitement and you probably picked up the crowds excitement. He's got a very good act with some powerful old-fashioned yoga juju going. It's known as Bhakti yoga. He also thinks that he is Krishna.

He does not say this in the west but hints at it but he says it straight out to the Indians. They think differently from us and worship people and cows and snakes and also have the worst form of apartheid called the caste system. They marry off their daughters when they are two and sell there children into slavery. There are more slaves in India than anywhere else in the world.

The juju that he does is accepted as normal among Indians who don't mind mob hysteria and mass hypnosis. They also have very active imaginations and worship 3,000 gods. Primitive, darling. Too, too atavistic for westerners.

So, yes, you may have felt something but you can get the same feeling by doing tantric sex and having a terrific orgasm with someone whom you trust and respect. That's the same feeling as bhakti and it's best to keep it between consenting adults in the privacy of your own home.

When it's done in a crowd it's kind of cheap and definitely not classy. Also the whole idea of having some silly human being to worship as a Master is dumb, undemocratic and downright boring unless you're into s and M and I'm not so it creeps me out.

You said: Sometimes i feel like that, a kind of connection. On the videos I get a good buzz from him talking (when I'm not looking around at the guys in the room..) and other times he seems very insistent about stuff and really arrogant like he's a big time dude who knows and we don't.

If you think he gives good satsang you should have heard some of the old time premies. Sometimes with the Indians some old women all shrivelled up would get up and talk for an hour in Gujerati (which I do not understand) and the vibe in the room would get so high it was better than any acid I ever took. That vibe is some sort of sweet love.

If you have ever seen Rev Rawat talking into a camera directly without an audience of adoring devotees you would see that he is boring. The vibe comes from him being adored by his audience. He picks it up and goes with it. It is not in him. He is basically a very ordinary guy with a fairly good product.

Yes, the techniques are not were it's at. There are some things which I do not like to post here. If you are interested I will tell you by email. The reason is that Rev Rawat recently used a phrase that I had written to one of his instructors and I do not want him to use ideas to make his juju work better in the west. I do not agree with the idea of a master.

I've said this before but I'll say it again. I am a democrat. We are all equal. If Jesus arrived tomorrow and walked across the water to save us, I would ask her to sit on the Salvation Committee with the rest of us.

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Date: Sat, Mar 24, 2001 at 15:07:42 (GMT)
From: cerise
Email: None
To: Pat Conlon
Subject: Thanks
Message:
that's very interesting Pat, I think I get the jist of most of your words, I feel that you , Jim and a couple of others are a little out of my intellectual league and I don't completly follow it all but that's ok. I posted a long note to Sherlock and I wanted to leave for icq but saw your post. I told him that no matter what is said about M and K I still am keen to see for myself, if you read the post It's kind of clear I think. I never take anyone's word for it on other sites because everyone's giving everyone else advice, you get immune to it after a while but that doesn't mean it's not listened to and processed like all other info.
my fingers are sore!! Do you type properly or bang down like I do on the ends of fingers? painfull...
cu P
C:)
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Date: Sat, Mar 24, 2001 at 22:46:36 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: cerise
Subject: Have you thought about this, Cerise?
Message:
I posted a long note to Sherlock and I wanted to leave for icq but saw your post. I told him that no matter what is said about M and K I still am keen to see for myself, if you read the post It's kind of clear I think. I never take anyone's word for it on other sites because everyone's giving everyone else advice, you get immune to it after a while but that doesn't mean it's not listened to and processed like all other info.

In order to supposedly 'get k' from Maharaji you have to prove that you're thoroughly indoctrinated in the cult belief system. That's what all the videos are about and that's what the careful, careful screening process is for too. You can't approach any of this with your arms crossed. You can't keep your thoughts to yourself. And those thoughts that you're forced to share better not be doubts about Maharaji. If so, you're not ready. Watch another month or so of videos.

That's how one receives k. And that's what you want to do one day? You might just as well say that you want to become a cult member in order to see for yourself what it's like. Otherwise, like others have mentioned, if you want the techniques, they're on the net. No big deal, just a lot of hindu hype.

So which is it: do you want the techniques or do you want to try being a cult member?

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Date: Sat, Mar 24, 2001 at 18:53:42 (GMT)
From: Pat Conlon
Email: None
To: cerise
Subject: Cerise: Rawat is perfect and Hitler loved Jews
Message:
You said: ''I feel that you, Jim and a couple of others are a little out of my intellectual league and I don't completly follow it all but that's ok.''

I'm not an intellectual. I'm an old fogey armchair yogi. Jim, yes, he's an egghead and he has some discussions here with the other eggheads that really are way over my head and I would have to have a dictionary handy to look up every other word. Perhaps there were one or two words you had to look up to understand my post. I hope you weren't too lazy and just decided to brush me off.

You have made it pretty clear that no one can put ideas into your head. I am not trying to convince you of anything. I know that, if you are anything like my son, that you do not trust anything completely except your own experience and you'll figure things out for yourself. Your generation isn't as gullible as us old hippies burnt out on acid that Rev Rawat caught in his trap 30 years ago. So I know you'll be fine.

You said in a response to another post: ''Mum and Dad have been really upset by some fuckwits with K and they feel M has saved them from that holy church shit.''

With thinking like that then I guess we can let Hitler off the hook. He was NOT responsible for sending 6 million Jews to the gas chambers. It was just his Nazi fuckwits who must have misinterpreted what he said when he told them, ''I love Jews.''

They thought he said, ''I love Jews for breakfast.'' So they roasted them for him. Yeah right Hitler was not to blame for the organization that grew up around him. No, he was a vegetarian saint who really wanted to save the Jews but his mindless fuckwit Gestappo misinterpreted him.

Rev Rawat is as responsible for creating ''that holy church shit'' as Hitler was for killing Jews. The ''holy church'' is his creation.

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Date: Fri, Mar 23, 2001 at 12:08:11 (GMT)
From: Aghast
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: What the ****?
Message:
'In Portland he said that enigmatic statement about how there will be war where there is peace, and peace where there is war.'

Could somebody please explain? Someone below thinks it is an apocalyptic warning to give premies the feeling that they have to be 'strong' to get through the opposition to the truth. But it sounds like he has been reading some ridiculous speech-writing book and thinks he is Winston Churchill or Kennedy.

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Date: Fri, Mar 23, 2001 at 17:37:05 (GMT)
From: Sir Dave
Email: None
To: Aghast
Subject: What the ****? - an explanation
Message:
Don't take any notice of what Maharaji says. After all, he is The Lord of the bongos and quite frankly, as mad as a hatter.

Anyone who takes anything this guy says seriously is in for trouble.

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Date: Fri, Mar 23, 2001 at 17:21:55 (GMT)
From: old friend
Email: None
To: Aghast
Subject: Peace and lentils! Next he talked about stew!
Message:
You know it was the talk about the same stuff going on and on that has always gone on.
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Date: Fri, Mar 23, 2001 at 16:48:54 (GMT)
From: Nigel
Email: nigel@redcrow.demon.co.uk
To: Aghast
Subject: Same old posturing as divine seer...
Message:
(So what happened to 'humble teacher'?)

Rawat has never abandoned his pretence of knowing more than he does - of his being this clairvoyant possessor of powers. As always, the impression is skillfully managed such that no specifics are given, merely these teasing hints about his all-knowingness.

For God's sake can't some adventurous wavering premie call his bluff on this bullshit? Shout out loud for the guy to explain himself or renounce his pretensions. If they ever let me into one of these events, I'm sure that's what I'm going to do.

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Date: Fri, Mar 23, 2001 at 13:42:55 (GMT)
From: Connie
Email: None
To: Aghast
Subject: Aghast, I do not think
Message:
that he was meaning it as an apocalyptic warning.

I did not say that. Please read the post again.

The post was more about how people could interpret it, from a common cultural heritage. Something that I think is of value to explore.

I said it had slight apocalyptic meaning. I believe people listening could unconsciously/consciously relate to it from shared Christian values. We have been fed for generations on fire and brimstone stories, heaven and hell, and tests of great faith.

I think people cannot help but bring some of that Christain conditioning into the realm of k, albiet rearranging it to fit in with their concepts of what k is. The 'maya' or age of darkness (kali yugu), which he has talked about in some of his addresses in the last year, also plays into this, it always fights knowledge.

I included in the post what the Krishnas view of the world was, and what they were about, trying to create a contrast between two differing cults, them and EV.

I am not sure what EV's world view is at the moment, but it does include devotion, there does not seem to be much of k.

The Krishnas intepretation of the bhagavad gita, was not just about devotion, but included a grim fight (paralleling Arjuna's fight) preparing for an apocalyptic event. That part of the post had nothing to do with m or what he said in Portland.

BTW, I don't think he ever tries to be like a Winston Churchill or Kennedy, he is not a politician canvassing for votes or electoral approval.

Hope this clarifies.

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Date: Fri, Mar 23, 2001 at 14:54:06 (GMT)
From: la-ex
Email: None
To: Connie
Subject: I knew JFK, JFK was a friend of mine, and you sir.
Message:
(maharaji) are no JFK, or Churchill for that matter.

This war/peace statement is the same old same old horseshit from m that we have always heard..

Seemingly wise or prophetic, but a totally benign stupid statement that could be interpreted in any way you want to,
and can also be wiggled out of in any way he might want to.

It says nothing, although to the devotee, always waiting the word of the master, it has just enough mystical possibility to keep them coming back for more...

If he is so wise, or prophetic, he would just come out and say it, whatever it might be, so that it could then stand in the court of public opinion for all to evaluate and judge....

But that would be to reasonable to expect, wouldn't it....

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Date: Fri, Mar 23, 2001 at 15:43:39 (GMT)
From: donner
Email: None
To: la-ex
Subject: I knew JFK, JFK was a friend of mine, and you sir.
Message:
i agree with your assesment la-ex
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Date: Fri, Mar 23, 2001 at 14:11:13 (GMT)
From: Abi
Email: None
To: Connie
Subject: Aghast, I do not think
Message:
Connie,
do you remember that old DLM song which was basically about M being Krishna? A line like 'listening to catch his orders in the very midst of the fight' . That was a reference to the battle and the first person pov in the song was Arjuna i.e. we are all Arjuna and he is Krishna. What was it called? In fact I think it might even have been my dear friend Anth who would once tell us stories about the child god Krishna as we all sat in a circle at his feet. (When we weren't tormenting premies and running amok that is) I really did think that M was Krishna and in fact (and this is very humiliating) I even had a crush on Krishna and decided that I must have been a gopi in a past life who had now reincarnated as a premie child to be close to my master again. Bleh!
Abi
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Date: Fri, Mar 23, 2001 at 14:28:55 (GMT)
From: Connie
Email: None
To: Abi
Subject: Waiting the Word of the Master or
Message:
We're all Love, can't remember which was the title.
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Date: Fri, Mar 23, 2001 at 19:54:35 (GMT)
From: suchabanana
Email: None
To: Connie
Subject: It's plagiarized from Krishnamurti's book:
Message:
AT THE FEET OF THE MASTER

'At the Feet of the Master
Watching the hidden light
listening to catch his orders
in the very midst of the fight

Seeing his slightest signal
across the heads of the throng;
hearing his faintest whisper
above earth's loudest song.'

-- J. Krishnamurti

written when he was a boy,
later published and copyrighted in 1970

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Date: Sat, Mar 24, 2001 at 12:45:31 (GMT)
From: Abi
Email: None
To: suchabanana
Subject: It's plagiarized from Krishnamurti's book:
Message:
Thanks Bananaman,

at least know I can tell myself that the reason I found that song so moving was because it was plagerized.

Abi

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Date: Sat, Mar 24, 2001 at 17:28:40 (GMT)
From: such
Email: None
To: Abi
Subject: drop-Dtuning]together now:We're allLoveLoveLove(nt
Message:
nt
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Date: Fri, Mar 23, 2001 at 15:22:38 (GMT)
From: Abi
Email: None
To: Connie
Subject: Waiting the Word of the Master or
Message:
Oh no! Now the whole song has flooded my head and I'm suddenly back there crooning over the Hamster. 'We're all love, love, love, love, love, love By His Grace'. No wonder I grew up a little cynical about lurv.

btw Check your e-mail

Abi

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Date: Fri, Mar 23, 2001 at 16:42:35 (GMT)
From: Susan
Email: None
To: Abi
Subject: Abi, your wit is incredible!
Message:
You crack me up.

Maybe it was the blue skin?

Did Krishna have some sort of cyanotic heart defect?

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Date: Sat, Mar 24, 2001 at 13:46:41 (GMT)
From: Abi
Email: None
To: Susan
Subject: Abi, your wit is incredible!
Message:
It was the blue skin, the countless arms, the long black glossy hair, the phallic flute, the rouged feet, the dress. Later I had a crush on Mr Spock and he was an alien with pointy ears. Sometime later it was Monkey from that tv show 'Monkey Magic'. It seems I had an issue with humans. Therapy anyone?
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Date: Fri, Mar 23, 2001 at 12:59:05 (GMT)
From: AJW
Email: None
To: Aghast
Subject: He forgot to say...
Message:
'There will be day where there is night and there will be night where there is day.

It will be cold where it is hot and it will be hot where it is cold.

It will be summer where it is winter and it will be winter where it is summer.

It will be dark where there is light and there will light where it is dark.

There will be thin people where there were fat people and fat people where there were thin people.

There will be a tin of beans where there was a slice of battenburg cake and battenburg where there were beans.

There will be ex-premies where there were premies and there will be premies where there are people who have stopped thinking for themselves.

(A prophet such as myself could go on like this all day. I learned it from my old guru, Captain Rawat. You just open your mouth and out comes the bullshit. In Hindi it's called 'satsang'- which literally translated means- 'Company of a bad smell.' It comes from an old Sanskrit word for an elephant turd.)

Yeah for it is written.

St Anth the Unwashed Patron of Etymologists.

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Date: Fri, Mar 23, 2001 at 15:30:32 (GMT)
From: Abi
Email: None
To: AJW
Subject: funny and so awfully true
Message:
So funny Anth! God, it really was/is like that. For a while I thought it was a metaphysical challenge, a sort of thinking beyond the binary, calling attention to the limits of the evil rational Mind. I thought I had to listen with another ear, suspend my critical disbelief and open my heart to His Masters Voice.

btw do you think that M really posted a while back?

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Date: Fri, Mar 23, 2001 at 12:37:23 (GMT)
From: Katie H.
Email: None
To: Aghast
Subject: I agree
Message:
Sounds like a portentious, PREtentious, and meaningless statement to me. He's always said stuff like that - some premies attach a lot of weight to it.

Katie the recovering apocalyptic.

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Date: Fri, Mar 23, 2001 at 13:15:12 (GMT)
From: janet
Email: None
To: Katie H.
Subject: i'm one too. see my post under DISHnet,,
Message:
the starship of Sunanda,the New Jerusalem
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Date: Fri, Mar 23, 2001 at 18:28:20 (GMT)
From: Katie H.
Email: None
To: janet
Subject: Funny, Janet!
Message:
or maybe that'll be the hour when jesus finally has it up-to-here and returns through the clouds on his starship the New Jerusalem and busts him for being the antichrist. «quelle confusion, n'est-ce pas?»

:)

(although I can't STAND the book of Revelations and believe Jesus himself would have been aghast at the use people have made of it over the centuries!)

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Date: Fri, Mar 23, 2001 at 14:06:24 (GMT)
From: Hanuman
Email: None
To: janet
Subject: i'm one too. see my post under DISHnet,,
Message:
improper spelling, janet, the guy is called Sananda, which is the new age name for Jesus the Christ, sananda was one of the
four sons -not suns- of Brahma, the creator, alright??
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Date: Sat, Mar 24, 2001 at 22:40:49 (GMT)
From: Sananda
Email: None
To: Hanuman
Subject: Sh Starseed
Message:
They are already moving closer to me here than those of you lost in obeisance to gurus. The time for gurus like myself was in the piscean age. each must now realise their own true potential without bowing down to another.

These so called ex followers are on the right track home. Do not speak in ignorance and arrogance we beg you

Ashtar command - Lightship salvation.

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Date: Fri, Mar 23, 2001 at 12:01:40 (GMT)
From: The Watcher
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: Are these corporate clients supporting Rawat?
Message:
Do they have a right to know?

Over 1,100 Clients to Attend Deltek's 2001 International User Conference in Dallas, Texas, March 25-28

MCLEAN, Va., March 20 /PRNewswire/ -- Deltek Systems, Inc. (Nasdaq: DLTK), a worldwide provider of business software, solutions and consulting services to professional services firms and project-based businesses, today announced that over 1,100 clients will be attending the company's international user conference in Dallas, Texas, Sunday, March 25-28, 2001.

The four-day event will take place at the Wyndham Anatole Hotel in Dallas, Texas, where attendees will have the opportunity to choose from among more than 200 general, technical and practice management sessions. The sessions focus on giving clients the information they require to make the best and most cost-effective deployment and use of Deltek's enterprise and professional services automation solutions.

Deltek's product family includes applications for project and financial accounting, client relationship management, time collection and employee expense, proposal automation, corporate and project planning, budgeting and forecasting, resource management and scheduling, human resources and payroll, business intelligence and e-Business.

One of the major highlights of the conference are the 'Stories from the Field' sessions, in which Deltek clients give presentations on their innovative achievements and successes with Deltek applications. The sessions address such topics as using Deltek integrated solutions to meet organizational change, achieving successful and rapid implementations of Deltek applications in large and small firms, as well as successfully deploying Deltek solutions and business intelligence reporting systems in a multinational environment.

A series of 'Business Sessions' is also being offered to address the development and implementation of business processes and best practices relating to project management activities, accounting and finance operations, and government contract management and compliance as well as human resources, payroll and other employee-facing programs. Sessions on information technology explore the potential impacts of new Microsoft technologies and recent technical developments in server and remote access systems, as well as providing Deltek's perspective on the critical issues, trends and approaches in the dynamic field of enterprise application integration.

'We are delighted to bring our customers and partners together to listen to their feedback and provide them the opportunity to share their experiences with others,' said Deltek's President and CEO, Ken deLaski. 'We're especially looking forward to showcasing all of the new and exciting product development plans underway as well as our new services offerings that can help our clients to reach even greater levels of project business success'.

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Date: Fri, Mar 23, 2001 at 14:26:29 (GMT)
From: salam
Email: None
To: The Watcher
Subject: Are these corporate clients supporting Rawat?
Message:
I don't see the relation. Or am I missing something?
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Date: Fri, Mar 23, 2001 at 16:01:39 (GMT)
From: WF
Email: None
To: salam
Subject: Are these corporate clients supporting Rawat?
Message:
Salam,

If you look up Delteks SEC information you will find that Onae Trust (Robert Jacobs) trustee has a significant amount invested in Deltek. If you recall the Onae Trust was the Owner of Prem Mark Foods formerly Rainbow Grocery in Colorado. When Prem Mark was purchased by another natural food giant it was the members of the Onae Trust who reaped the profit.

Also, Mr Delaski, Stephen Sordoni, and Alvarro Pascotto (Registered Agent of Wahadamar Inc.) are Directors of Prime Resources LLC, (listed as registrant of the GulfStream IV.)

Finally, you can review employees and Regional Representatives of Deltek on the web and you will find that Booth Dyes is/was employed by Deltek.

I doubt you'll get much more information as 'The Onae Trust', 'Wahadamar Inc.' and 'Prime Resources' are sacred cows amongst the PAMS and it is politically incorrect to mention these issues ;-)

WF

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Date: Fri, Mar 23, 2001 at 20:20:50 (GMT)
From: Francesca
Email: None
To: WF
Subject: You'd have to trace the money stream in a way that
Message:
... is concretely reasonable to them. The dots would have to be connected with corporate government filings (in California and I believe other states) -- that's Secretary of State stuff.

In California, for example, charitable trusts have to register with the Attorney General's office, and they have to file certain documents that are public records.

But they would want the bottom line, on paper, with no aspect of rumor or innuendo, I'd imagine. There's a pretty good one posted on the yacht, for example.

They've got to make certain types of filings and disclosures to keep out of trouble with the IRS and state income tax laws in the states in which these various corporations are incorporated. At least that much, I can guess.

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Date: Fri, Mar 23, 2001 at 14:55:57 (GMT)
From: la-ex
Email: None
To: salam
Subject: Should Deltek's clients know who Deltek supports?n
Message:
n
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Date: Fri, Mar 23, 2001 at 11:23:05 (GMT)
From: Tony Walker (Aussi Ji)
Email: parisw@ozemail.com.au
To: Everyone
Subject: Anyone know where Padarthanand is ?
Message:
I know he would still be into Knowledge.I gor K off him and I always admired him.He was a very humble man and totally dedicated to M and K.Apparently Maharishi tried to recruit him about 25 years ago,as he was very impressed by him.
I saw Padarthanand(paddy)about 3 years ago in Sydney.He hadn't chanded much,except for a suit instead of a the safron gear and was now sporting hair instead of the coconut look.
Yes,a very fine human being.I hope one day he sees the light and skips the cult

Cheers Tony.

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Date: Sat, Mar 24, 2001 at 06:45:59 (GMT)
From: cerise
Email: None
To: Tony Walker (Aussi Ji)
Subject: hey Tony...
Message:
hey Tony,

have you see your post at the bottom of this thread?

if you can be so easily persuaded to NOT believe what you did half an hour before then i think thats not a very strong real feeling in the first place.
if you feel someone is a 'fine human being' then why not try to be true to that feeling and only change when you feel it, not when people say something else about it.

ps: i could be biased cos P was very nice to me when I was a kid and he didn't touch me or anything.

cu
C

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Date: Sat, Mar 24, 2001 at 22:15:18 (GMT)
From: Tony Walker (Aussi Ji)
Email: None
To: cerise
Subject: hey Cerise
Message:
No,That is what the truth is all about.I can have feelings about things based on what I think is fact,but when the truth is applied to that situation,the feelings can change.If Padarthanand has been involved in these allegations then obviously my feelings towards him are going to change.This is human nature.When I knew Paddy I was 19 years old and very naive.Lots of naive people trust others until the truth is revealed to them and then they CHANGE.I think there is a parallel in there somewhere.
Cheers Tony.
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Date: Sat, Mar 24, 2001 at 16:45:54 (GMT)
From: Katie H.
Email: None
To: cerise
Subject: We didn't really 'know' these people, cerise
Message:
I think Tony wrote that he 'admired' Pardathanand, not that they were good friends or anything. That's different - it's an unequal relationship. I've been shocked on this forum by revelations about people I admired in DLM/EV too. It didn't mean that I totally wrote the person off - just that I now saw another aspect to their character. People can be good and bad at the same time (IMHO, anyway).
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Date: Sat, Mar 24, 2001 at 13:58:20 (GMT)
From: Abi
Email: None
To: cerise
Subject: petite PAM?
Message:
Who else have you met?
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Date: Sat, Mar 24, 2001 at 15:41:20 (GMT)
From: cerise
Email: None
To: Abi
Subject: yeay and not ashamed of it
Message:
Hi Ab, you'll have to read my post to Sherlock where I think I said who I had met and hung around, all of them, including M. What's that got to do with anything?

I'm still intriged about K cos Pat said he's had it 30 years and still did it. There's lots like him you know. I like him and it makes sense to me that he'd be like that. I don't really care what the people (some of you hate) are like as long as they're nice to ME! I include M in that equation. perhaps I'm a bit young to understand another way to be.
:)
C

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Date: Sun, Mar 25, 2001 at 00:58:31 (GMT)
From: Abi
Email: None
To: cerise
Subject: whatever.....
Message:
rrrrrrrrrrrrrr
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Date: Fri, Mar 23, 2001 at 19:52:07 (GMT)
From: Joe
Email: None
To: Tony Walker (Aussi Ji)
Subject: Padarthanand
Message:
There are a number of women, well three that I am aware of, who claim Padarthanand sexually assaulted them. So, perhaps he isn't as wonderful as you think.

Padarthanand lost his shiny head in the 70s, and by the late 70s, was touring the USA with a full head of hair and a beard.

As I mentioned a few days ago, Padarthanad was also a racist, which also reduced his 'humble servent' role in my eyes.

Also, when I was coordinator in Miami, he met with me complaining that there were 'bongo premies' (in his view)sitting in satsang, who 'security' should do something about, like ban them from satsang. When I explained that everyone had the right to be in satsang, even people he didn't like, he got upset with me.

Finally, Padarthanad used to go around the world talking about what a together place the Pacific was, which he apparently ruled as his private kingdom. He used to say that since he was such a great Mahatma, a very high percentage of the premies in Australia practiced knowledge, in comparison to everywhere else. Unfortunately, the statistics in Australia did not support his egotistical claims. Seems people in Australia are just as skilled as seeing through the cult as anywhere else.

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Date: Fri, Mar 23, 2001 at 22:08:46 (GMT)
From: G
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: smiling faces sometimes...
Message:
'Smiling faces sometimes they don't tell the truth.'

SMILING FACES SOMETIMES

I don't know if the lyrics are accurate, but it will do.

I was also fooled by Padarthanand. He looks so cute, what a charming smile, how could he be a sicko? But sometimes 'Smiling faces show no traces of the evil that lurks within.'

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Date: Fri, Mar 23, 2001 at 23:21:53 (GMT)
From: Joe
Email: None
To: G
Subject: Yes, very cute...
Message:
Also very handsome, once he grew some hair.
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Date: Fri, Mar 23, 2001 at 19:58:48 (GMT)
From: Ulf
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: Krisnasukanand
Message:
I got K from Krisnasukanand.
does anybody know if he is still around M ?

Ulf

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Date: Sat, Mar 24, 2001 at 01:10:18 (GMT)
From: Steve Quint
Email: the_avenger55@hotmail.com
To: Ulf
Subject: Krisnasukanand
Message:
Krishnasukanand was just about the first premie I ever had contact with. I hung around him for about a week in 1972 and had some very powerful experiences that I thought were 'enlightenment'. I have since come to realize that it is foolish and can be very dangerous to try to label inner experiences.

A few years ago a prominent premie friend told me that Kris was a homeopathic doctor in India and that he had run into him at a festival there.

Steve

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Date: Sat, Mar 24, 2001 at 11:53:52 (GMT)
From: Ulf
Email: None
To: Steve Quint
Subject: Krisnasukanand
Message:
Hi steve
Thanks for your answer , and yes, there is no use to
label our expiences as something that is enlightenment
i do agree,, very much.
But this mean that Krisnasukanand is still a premie
of M, is that what you are saying ?
Best Ulf
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Date: Sat, Mar 24, 2001 at 01:01:37 (GMT)
From: Katie Darling
Email: None
To: Ulf
Subject: Krisnasukanand... too cute! nt
Message:
poadhg
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Date: Fri, Mar 23, 2001 at 13:51:55 (GMT)
From: Abi
Email: None
To: Tony Walker (Aussi Ji)
Subject: Anyone know where Padarthanand is ?
Message:
He's due to arrive in Brisbane soon. And he's a fucking wanker.
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Date: Fri, Mar 23, 2001 at 14:30:25 (GMT)
From: salam
Email: None
To: Abi
Subject: That me gal.
Message:
I was going to say something on the line, but you beat me to it.

Oh bloody hell, am a coco-nut head, and a jolly wolly humble papadam muncher. Please give me few ruppies. hahaha.

F**k him.

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Date: Fri, Mar 23, 2001 at 13:18:37 (GMT)
From: janet
Email: None
To: Tony Walker (Aussi Ji)
Subject: no ya dont-another sexual user and betrayer
Message:
its in the recent archives. look for it.
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Date: Fri, Mar 23, 2001 at 20:28:26 (GMT)
From: Tony Walker (Aussi Ji)
Email: None
To: everyone
Subject: Thanks guys,There goes another concept
Message:
into the shithouse.Is there nothing sacred in M's world.Apparently,as it would seem No!Oh well,onward I go,and some more excess baggage gone.Thanks again guys and dolls

Cheers Tony

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Date: Sat, Mar 24, 2001 at 12:27:35 (GMT)
From: Salam
Email: None
To: Tony Walker (Aussi Ji)
Subject: Sorry mate
Message:
I used to think the same, but gave it up long time ago. Makes the shit house overflow but.

So what's the plan for Amaroo, I don't think I can make, have a presentation on 24 April. Pitty, I was all geared up for it. Sheesh. Bet you them folk at EV can relax their balls now.

Thinking of getting a real smart card, do not know why though?

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Date: Sat, Mar 24, 2001 at 12:20:57 (GMT)
From: janet
Email: None
To: Tony Walker (Aussi Ji)
Subject: its wot we're 'ere for mate.
Message:
the daylight hurts when you first take the blindfold off.
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Date: Fri, Mar 23, 2001 at 10:46:09 (GMT)
From: janet
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: bear with me. this is long but a major awakening
Message:
for me. I have just recovered a part of me that has never been wholly mine to be before. Ot has to do with death, and life, and fake religiosity versus real knowing of the self.

It came back to me while watching tonight's tv episode of ER. It involved a scene where two of the doctors are struggling to save the life of an asian teen girl who arrives with multiple gunshot wounds.They open her chest and find a bullet hole in the front of her heart, they close it they shock her. the heart fails to fill with blood. one of the doctors thinks to check underneath and finds an exit wound on the back side. he closes it wuickly. they try again. hearbeat resatarts. she's saved. they clean up and get her set to go upstairs to critical care. the one doctor is left in the trauma bay with her after the others head to other patients. another, younger asian teen girl suddenly comes in the trauma bay, asks if this is so and so. doctor says yes, asks why. girl answers 'because I'm her sister' and pulls out a snub nosed 38 and fires six more deafening shots into her on the table at point blank range, splattering blood and brains all over the doctor and the walls, and she escapes in the chaos. the young doctor pulls back in revulsion, tearing off mask, gown, gloves, tie,goggles,shirt, as he staggers back to get away from the room in disgust and shock. Others surge into the room, trying to save her, all over again, as he streaks for the bathroom to wash off the mess and the horror. the other doctor who was with him when they first successfully stabilized her comes in to find him in his t shirt in the washroom, water running loudly, his head over the basin, dripping, unable to shake off what he witnessed. the second doctor tells him to take the rest of the day off and go home. the first one says he's ok. the second makes a point of ordering him home. so he signs out and goes home.
background story on the young doc in shock: Name 'John Carter' hes from a rich old money family. he wants to do emergency medicine. the family thinks he's nuts, that not where the money and prestige is. but he's determined. early on, one of his cousins at art school got into heroin and came to him for under the table prescriptions to get past withdrawal. John refused, instead stayed at home with him thru withdrawal. Thought the guy was out and safe. Turns around and sees him brought into the ER on a heroin overdose, Personally sits vigil over him to save his life. They guy lives, but comes out of his coma a simpleton, career ruined, insitutional for life.
Fast forward a year. Carter and his assigned med student Lucy Knight are treating an unruly foreign guy who thinks everyone is trying to steal his organs. They sedate him and do a spinal tap. He wakens and struggles. They call psych but they can't get downstairs for him for some hours. They go on to other patients. Theres a birthday party in the staff lounge. someone brought a cake.the knife to cut it disappears. Lucy goes to check on the paranoid. Carter goes to look for Lucy. the patient's not in his bed. the room is dark. As Carter steps into the room, he feels a long knife go into his kidneys and he falls to the floor, bleeding to death. Across the floor he sees Lucy, bleeding to death as well, struck by the same patient.
Carter and Lucy get found before they die. Heroic efforts are made to save them each. After exhaustive procedures, it seems they will make it. However, Lucy goes into a stroke from a clot, and dies just before they finish on Carter.
Carter is wheelchair bound for months in his own hospital. He's in terrible pain but puts a face on and assures one and all it's not so bad. His frustration is visible. He graduates to crutches and is allowed to return to work gradually. What no one knows is that he has become addicted to painkillers from his convalescence. He is stealing them from pharmacy. He is found out. He is fired and forced to choose rehab or the streets. He goes to rehab. And withdrawal. Just like his cousin who showed so much promise.
He makes it thru and comes back clean. He is reinstated starting over at the bottom. Pee tests, no sharps, no needles, no handling meds. Simple stuff only. He has nightmares. He has flashbacks of the attack. He overreacts to patients who put up a struggle, seeing the paranoid in each one all over again. The head of psych invites him upstairs to talk, anytime he feels he wants to. Everyone keeps a watchful eye on him. He starts weight training at home, buys boxing equipment, he says, to 'get his strength back'.
When he gets sent home from the washroom, after the gunshots in the trauma bay, he goes straight to his punching bag and its clear he's letting out all his adrenaline killer instinct on the weighted bag,seeing the psycho in its surface, and the teen with the gun an hour ago, destroying all his painstaking work on her sister, and all the other faces of all the other violence he has watched and witnessed and seen come out those swinging doors at the ward.
when he has spent his ferocity, he decides he's ready to go back to the hospital and return to work, finish his shift. and back he goes. Into the lounge, open the locker, on with the white coat, up with the stethoscope, out into the halls once more to work his craft.
Background on the other doctor, who ordered him to go home after the gunshots:
This is Luka. Croatian. A Pediatrician and a surgeon. Recently came to America from Kosovo. Saw his wife and 2 children blown away in their apt bldg by a falling shell, from a block away, while going to the corner store for bread, one sunday morning. Gentle fellow, impish, careful, doesn't want to talk about the war in a lot of detail, tends to steer the conversation onto pleasanter things.
Luka lkes a certain nurse, Abby. Abby asks him out that night. So they go ut after shifts over to a local pub. Play foosball, eat supper, decide to take a walk along lake michigan afterwards. A skinhead mugs them from behind with a lead pipe. Strikes Luka first, from behind, sending him to the pavement with a blow to the back of the head. Then he turns on Abby with the pipe. Luka comes up behind him and slams him to the wall. Can't stop smashing his head back. Can't stop when the guy slides to the ground. Luka goes on bashing the skinhead's skull on the ground,like a man ppssessed, well past the point of subduing him. Abby has to force herself between Luka and the guy to break his spell. Something tells her this is a side to Luka he doesn't want anyone to know was there.
Next thing we see is Luka and Abby back at the ambulance bay wheeling the bleeding skinhead into trauma. Carter is there to take him in and the team goes to work on saving his life. Luka and Abby are made to stand behind the observers glass and watch them labor to keep him from losing his life.
Luka is strange now. Can't stand to have anyone touch him. Is in his own world, string thru the glass. A nurse appraoches him from behind, to put an ice bag to his lacerations, which are bleeding down the back of his head, and he lashes out in PTSD reflex, lost in wartime mode, not knowing who's coming up behind him and trying to take him out. Scares Abby and the nurse, both. In the trauma room, it's unclear whether themugger will live or not. They lose him, they get him back.
They lose him, they get him back. After 45 minutes of CPR, Carter finally calls it, and recites the time of death.
Luka stalks out of the ER unseeing, a haunted man, and pushes aside all efforts to address him or follow him. He goes out into the frigid winter night, coatless, consumed with another time, another place, another life.
-------------
I was riveted. I was blown wide open. I saw myself. It all came back to me.

The Healer becomes the Killer. The Killer becomes the Healer.

The Killer and The Healer are One and the Same.
------------------------------

Background on me, and what has happened to me tonight:

I know for the first time in my life that I have it in me to be both, and that both are right.
I never knew i had it in me to murder, until my father took my child. I experienced for the first time the biological rage that the female has to guard her young. I wanted to kill to get my son back. It was a feeling that I never knew lived in me, until circumstance brought it to the fore. They say the female is deadlier than the male. The male fights ritualistically; for dominance, for territory, for mating. Not the female. She fights with far more ferocity, without regard to self, with no thought of preservation, only to see that her children have what they must. She will kill anything that gets in her way--mate, kin,enemy, stranger, familiar, if they come between her and her young. And I knew it when it reared its head in me. I was not insane. I knew I was clearer than i had ever been in my life. I knew it was my biological instincts, rising out of the depths to retake what was mine, was of me.
And I was also crippled, with the higher, religious ages of 'higher behavior', the doctrines that life is sacred, the ten commandments to honor thy father and thy mother, thou shalt not kill, thou shalt not covet. I loved my father. I revered him. I held him above all men i had ever known in my life. And i saw myself murdering him, was possessed of seething fantasies i could not stop, of taking his life, over and over, in first one way, then another, then a third. I was obsessed and i knew it was so. I was afraid i would carry out one of these acts, if i went anywhere near him. So i put myself in what i called my maximum security prison. I confined myself to stay in Denver, and to Colorado, while he had my boy in Texas, telling myself I could do anything and go anywhere, just so long as i didn't leave the state. It was for my safety and for his. I battled the urges for an entire decade, unable to resolve the two extremes. I did not not which was true. I knew what i felt in my blood--i wanted to kill. I wanted it frantically and madly with all my being. and i knew the religious commandments were all true and right and i was honor bound to honor them.
I was at war with my soul. My higher nature and my lower nature wanted to destroy each other. Each despised the other for what it wanted.

I remember walking the streets and alleys of Denver, seething in my mind, thinking of all the bullies and criminals and just stupid ordinary people who go ahead and puch out someone's lights whenever the mood seizes them. I though of how i held onto my self control and refused to do that, no matter what the circumstances, and how i did it to uphold a Higher Law. I would stalk and rage and growl 'when do I get MY turn, God?? When do I get to let loose? HUH? Everybody ELSE gets to do it. Why do I have to be the exemplary one?? When are you gonna let me have a turn??'
Three times I got jumped in Denver during the 80's. The first time, a guy shadowed me home from a friend's. I felt him, gave him the slip, but he found me again. He jumped me piggyback. I slammed him up against a brick wall and reached back and started to pop his eye out with my finger. He hollered and i let him get away.
the second guy tackled me for using his backyard faucet to wash my hands, after stomping a large saack of pop cans down, to redeem. I bit him in his fat, lardy arm. He cried and whimpered that i hurt him.
The third guy jumped me from behind,on a silent winter night, just feet from my back door. I planted my feet and bellowed for the manager. He threw me to the ice and fled. I evidenced head injury signs. speech garbling,incoordination, speech aphasia. at the hospital the x ray tech shoved my head toward a film--i smacked her back, just as I watched young doctor Luka do tonight, to the nurse with the icebag. I relived it suddenly. PTSD. That was me. That happened to me. Oh my god. No one comes up behind me like that. I will kill before i turn to find out who you are. Don't do it.

When i was finished at the ER that night, they callously told me to walk home the 5 blocks to my house. at 3 am. right thru the same neighborhood the guy had just jumped me in, and gotten away.
I truly do not remember how i got home. a taxi? called a friend? maybe i did walk it? I do not remember. what stupidity, on the part of the hospital, to say that to me.
for the next six months, I was prepared to kill anything that tried to touch me. I carried a weapon. not an obvious one. a huge river stone, concealed within grocery sacks, made to look like groceries i was carrying home. But i waited, I wanted, for someone, to try something. I WANTED an excuse to kill someone. I was just seething for someone to take it all out on.

after 6 months, I left the stone behind, and took to carrying a lead pipe as a walking stick. not passively. I swung it, spun it, and struck at things as i walked, to make it clear from a distance that i was vicious, if anyone was eyeing me for a try.

watching young doctor Carter blast away at that boxing punching bag tonight, i saw myself, in PTSD, after the attack in Denver. Arming myself, sharpening my wits, preparing myself, so as to never be taken off guard again.

I saw myself in Luka. To this day I cannot allow anyone to walk behind me on a street. I can feel them from blocks away. You don't come up from behind me and surprise me. I may strike and kill you and be unable to stop myself.

And the last scene, watching Luka bolt out into the winter night, i relived all over again my insoluble war in my soul bewteen my lower and higher nature.

am i the killer? am i the healer?
luka the doctor smashes a thug's head into pulp to stop him from hurting him or his date--and he can't stop himself, once he feels himself bashing him--
but then he turns around and wants to use every ounce of his healing art, to save the human life he a moment ago pushed to the brink of oblivion with his bare hands.

and all at once i saw thru. i got it.

i got ME.

i saw all the way down to the bottom of
the fake religiosity, the fake guilt, the fake control over human behavior. maharaji ism. the ten commandments. Sandy's cage of confusion and what-if's. all of it fake. its not me. its not real.

i am both. I am the killer, and i am the healer. both are me. i will do the one or the other, whichever you present me with. you come at my life, i will kill you. but i also want to heal you, and can, and will, if i can. if i have me, all here.

the strangest thing happened, as this came over me.

in trying to keep on making my way thru the world, all those years of trying to control the murderous wants, i fell back on operating by sheer forced thought. i didnt dare trust my emotions, i wasnt living. i was getting by. i was aping.

but tonight, bringing back this sense of me,
the sense of unreality left me. everything in the room got brighter, more real, more 'here'. i felt like i had come back into myself., the me i knew as whole, once, upon a time.
the self hatred evaporated.

i tried thinking about different things. they all felt good. i listened for the torture in my soul. none. i have chucked the religiosity and embraced myself as i know myself to be.

i can blow hot and cold. its okay. i am both..
i can kill. i can heal. i can want to do both--to the same person, and its not a conflict now. i am what i am.

i could not have done this without this open arena, this public experiment in the company of my peers, to go ahead, and dump all of what i have tried to carry around, and be, and live up to,and not be, or not do, in the name of religion, since i was old enought to understand stories.

the exploration continues.

thank you for listening. i know it was long.

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Date: Sat, Mar 24, 2001 at 17:54:09 (GMT)
From: cq
Email: None
To: janet
Subject: bear with me. this is long but a major awakening
Message:
I printed out your post last night. It deserves a wider audience than just this Forum. Thought of publishing it? Perhaps the rumoured forthcoming media-exposes of M might find a place for your insights? Anyway, you write very well, and it was a compelling read.

Jung said much about the process of what he called individuation, a part of which is about being able to re-integrate our past experiences (and our 'shadow-side') with the totality of what we're capable of being, and what we really are.

So much of the Maha's message is all 'happy, happy, joy, joy' and it's blatantly obvious to me, if not to current premies, that following his message - and consequently disowning the parts of our psyche that aren't all 'happy happy' or warm and fuzzy - well what does it lead to? A very fractured, fear-based and unresolved type of personality, IMO.

Re-integrating with the totality of ourselves. For that, the Maha is definitely NOT a help, but a hindrance.

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Date: Sat, Mar 24, 2001 at 16:22:38 (GMT)
From: Katie H.
Email: None
To: janet
Subject: recognizing our shadow side
Message:
Hi Janet -
What you have written IS very important. I agree with Monmot about recognizing our shadow, or dark, side - the part that can kill, do bad things, etc. I think it's people who refuse to acknowledge that their shadow side exists who tend to be compelled to do bad things, or things they think of as 'bad' (classic example is the televangelist caught with prostitutes - and of course, M is another classic example.)

Take care -
Katie H.

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Date: Sat, Mar 24, 2001 at 14:14:08 (GMT)
From: Salam
Email: None
To: janet
Subject: I don't watch ER
Message:
Don't dig it.

I must say it was hard reading your post. But aren't you glad you did not kill anyone including your father?

But I did miss the conclusion of your experience, what was the result if there was any? or are you still in the process of awakening?

I have noticed how intense you can be when you talk about your experience as a mother, your son, father...etc.

Part of 'awakeining' is to understand where we're coming from. Happly for me, I did leave the maha a long time ago, though that does not mean I don't carry scares in a mental, psychological or whatever else there is. But as I did not have any contact with him or with premies, I was able to stand up and in one strock, cut my dependance on him. Even that wasn't easy, as the moment I did it, every thing around me just collapsed and I was left totally confused and aimless, it took me a long time and a lot of effort to come back and be sane again.

I have read your posts and know that you went from one side of the country to the other chasing his sorry ass, and I take it that that did nothing but to reinforce your co-dependancy on him. Breaking free from it is not easy.

Am not sure if am making any sense, but really, all I can say is take it easy. Life is too short to live it hating someone and allowing him to abuse you. Be happy in what you do.

Take care and be well

Salam

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Date: Fri, Mar 23, 2001 at 20:03:38 (GMT)
From: Monmot
Email: None
To: janet
Subject: bear with me. this is long but a major awakening
Message:
Hi Janet:

Quite the epistle you've written. Sounds like you've let a major shadow out of the closet, and IMO, recognition of the shadow parts of ourselves are always good. It allows the shadow to move from unconciousness to conciousness, and it them stops being a shadow, and frees up the energy which was used to keep it hidden from ourselves. Your story reminds me of a book by Robert Bly called 'The Little Book of the Human Shadow,' and you might find it interesting reading. It's a small book but very enlightening.

I was attacked once by a man who tried to rape me at knifepoint, and in our struggle, the guy cut me up on the legs etc. But for some reason, when he knifed my hand, I went into some dissociative state and knocked off both his hats, his sunglasses, dislodged his knife, and came to with him pinned to a chainlink fence with my elbow lodged firmly on his neck. To this day, I can't remember doing it, just the results. Up to that point, evil was a construct and something I read about and pondered, but wasn't a reality (or so I thought) in my life. It became real after that, and realizing that had a major impact on my life, both good and bad, too much to go into right now. Those fugue states (now called dissociative states) are powerful in very weird ways.

I'm glad you've been able to integrate your experience with your father concerning your son. It must feel damn good.

This might be somewhat disjointed. I've got to run, but I wanted to respond to your post before I split.

Take care.

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Date: Sat, Mar 24, 2001 at 07:43:34 (GMT)
From: cerise
Email: None
To: Monmot
Subject: good for you Monmot
Message:
well done Monmot, hope you shoved his nuts up his arse with your knee. And you Janet, sounds like a hellish trip you have endured.
Hope you can relax now and chill. God, if i get done like that I'll kick to kill, honest, actually that nearly did happen once at the lunch break and there was two guys trying to rip my dress. I kicked one so hard he had to go home for the afternoon, and guess what? I got told OFF for being rough! yea right, typical male schoolteacher who said 'they were just joking around' with me.
JERKING around I call it!!
lol
C
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Date: Sat, Mar 24, 2001 at 18:53:20 (GMT)
From: Monmot
Email: None
To: cerise
Subject: and good for you Cerise
Message:
I'm glad you kicked him home...it's inexcusable that a teacher would try to justify that kind of behavior. And they wonder why there are so many school shootings nowadays. Abusing and bullying your schoolmates seems to be accepted for some wacko rason. And then when you leave your teens or something, that kind of behavior is supposed to magically disappear. It feels good to fight back. My attacker was eventually sent to Bride School, even though it took three grueling years of me hounding the dude through the (in)justice system.

Glad to meet you, Cerise. Nice name, whether moniker or not.

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Date: Fri, Mar 23, 2001 at 10:35:48 (GMT)
From: Jean-Michel
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: Heard rumors of Rawat coming to Europe?
Message:
Can anybody confirm ? Locations ?
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Date: Fri, Mar 23, 2001 at 11:38:36 (GMT)
From: Tony Walker (Aussi Ji)
Email: paris@ozemail.com.au
To: Jean-Michel
Subject: Maybe he has gone to luides to pray LOL.nt
Message:
nt
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Date: Fri, Mar 23, 2001 at 11:41:53 (GMT)
From: Tony Walker (Aussi Ji)
Email: None
To: J-M
Subject: Or maybe the Palace of Peace for ol'times sake.LOL
Message:
nt
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Date: Fri, Mar 23, 2001 at 10:55:52 (GMT)
From: AJW
Email: None
To: Jean-Michel
Subject: Hot news from London.
Message:
Hi J-M,

I heard they've hired the Friends Meeting House in North London but are having problems getting enough people to register. There are 62 seats in the place and registration will cost $2500, plus a voluntary donation of at least $2000 to cover the cost of the hall and the speakers private jet. No refunds in the event of cancellation. Tacky merchandise will be on sale at inflated prices.

Anth with his ear to the ground, finger on the pulse, nose to the grindstone, toe on the line, putting his best food forward.

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Date: Fri, Mar 23, 2001 at 12:17:01 (GMT)
From: Patrick
Email: None
To: AJW
Subject: Hot news from London.
Message:
Raja Ji is coming to town. That's what I heard.
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Date: Fri, Mar 23, 2001 at 13:22:12 (GMT)
From: janet
Email: None
To: Patrick
Subject: kidnap him,deprogram him, bring him here.
Message:
abduct him to latvian night and give him sodium pentothal. help him get a life.
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Date: Fri, Mar 23, 2001 at 12:45:51 (GMT)
From: AJW
Email: None
To: Patrick
Subject: Imagination
Message:
Your source is probably more reliable than mine Patrick.

My information comes from my imagination.

Anth the caught red-handed.

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Date: Fri, Mar 23, 2001 at 00:07:50 (GMT)
From: Francesca
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: Check out Saddle Pal's version of WPC. yikes.
Message:
Satpal's army

Supposed to be doing humanitarian 'crowd control' at festivals, but in the second picture, those guys in the 2nd row have long sticks. I've heard about those sticks re the crazy Buddhist events in India also.

To be fair, one you work up devotees into a bhakti juju froth, they do tend to charge the stage. Stopped a few of them myself in my old audience security days. But they didn't give me a stick. International festivals were the worst. When push came to shove, none of the miscreants knew a word of English.

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Date: Fri, Mar 23, 2001 at 04:13:41 (GMT)
From: bill
Email: None
To: Francesca
Subject: Narcissists love a color gaurd.......nt
Message:
fgsdaf
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Date: Fri, Mar 23, 2001 at 03:21:18 (GMT)
From: la-ex
Email: None
To: Francesca
Subject: Shouldn't EPO have an honor guard with uniforms ..
Message:
as well?
I like those hats they wear.

BTW, on a serious note, did you notice how many social service projects sat pal sponsors?
If they are for real, it really shows you how self centered and degenerate m is...never any thing for humanity, just more toys for his 'rotundity'...and silly schemes to pull in more suckers for the knowledge scam...sad that his kids are buying into the family business....

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Date: Fri, Mar 23, 2001 at 05:25:35 (GMT)
From: Francesca
Email: None
To: la-ex
Subject: Yes, I noticed the humanitarian programs also
Message:
I have a feeling they are for real. Though I don't go for the Bhakti juju trip I think that it is a marked contrast to M, who doesn't try to do anything for anyone except 'give' K, and then demand your next 3 lifetimes and your first born child in exchange for telling you to watch your breath.

Sheesh!

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Date: Fri, Mar 23, 2001 at 06:22:43 (GMT)
From: Pat Conlon
Email: None
To: Francesca
Subject: Satpal does not seem to stress the bhakti
Message:
He is more in the tradition of the Radhasoami gurus. That is he is a minister/pastor. He doesn't spend hours yakking at his premies. He encourages them to have satsang and service is doing things like helping out after the earthquake.

Rahdasoami was started in the 1880's as a challenge to the growing influence of the Christian missionaries. It reformed guruism in so far as it took the emphasis away from guru-worship and instigated communal values and neighborly love which it borrowed from christianity.

Radhasoami had originally grown out of Sikhism in the Punjab which itself had been a reformation of Hinduism with the introduction of the Muslim ideas of one god and social responsibility. The Beas cults grew out of that in reaction to the demonic aspects of Krishnaism/guru-worship.

When Shri Hans guru kicked the bucket he followed a very Beas tradition in that he made most of his mahatmas into gurus and many Rahdasoami gurus to this day sit on a democratic committe much like the council of churches. Most of their gurus have day jobs as Post Masters, School Masters and Railway Station masters. They do not make a lving out of being a guru.

Shri Hans had messianic ambitions and was despised by the other Beas gurus. It was Shri hans who first dressed up as Krishna and claimed to be an avatar. Prempal simply followed in his father's footsteps and took reformed gurism back to its demonic roots in Krishna worship.

Radhasoami is simply a ''spiritual'' religion like Quakerism or Unity. If you think of ancient Hinduism as being the Catholic church then Buddhism is Lutheranism, Sikhism is like Methodism, Radhasoami is the equivalent of the ''spiritual'' christian sects of the Great Awakening. Yoga is simply Hindu religion much as prayer or rituals are to christians. Yoga after all can be very accurately translated into relgion.

The more I study the western tradition of mysticism the more I see that all the states of consciousness attributed to yoga are also claimed by the various mystical christian sects. We were so awed by oriental mumbo-jumbo by the time Rev Rawat came along that we fell for it. I personally was also very ignorant of our Platonic and Judeo-christian traditions.

Also Krishnaism fell neatly into my LSD saturated brain, fanciful, ecstatic, flambuoyant and hyperbolical. But guru-worship is a debased religion fit only for peasants. I know that the more educated Gujerati premies treat Rawat very much like a preacher and are not given to gushing but they are still Krishnaists and Rawat is the avatar. It is yoga revivalism.

Satpal seems to fit the Radhasoami tradition better. He was always more dry and plodding than Prem and actually quite boring but he seemed like he would probably read and study unlike Prem who thinks he knows everything already and only reads consumer magazines and watches TV.

Ashokanand said that Prem was irresponsible and selfish and would create chaos and that is why he went over to Satpal. Satpal is in the religion business but is more in keeping with Billy Graham - a respectable revivalist, while Prem may be compared with the charismatic holy rollers, faith healers and other semi-insane bible thumpers. He is also the hindu equivalent of Rev Moon, the messiah. Rev Rawat is Krishna and Rev Moon is Christ - at least in their own minds and those people on whom they have worked their psychological juju and mass-hypnotism.

Satpal seems to be quite modest in comparison. In the end it is just religion and they are all priests and some people need priests and some even need messiahs. I've always been allergic to priests and lately I have become absolutely disgusted with messiahs. We only need masters if we don't have any clever friends and most of my friends a lot smarter than me.

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Date: Fri, Mar 23, 2001 at 21:28:54 (GMT)
From: El Santo
Email: None
To: Pat Conlon
Subject: Satpal does not seem to stress the bhakti
Message:
Not too shabby an analysis. Though I hope it won't sound too churlish to point out that a Radhasoami guru (cf Thakar Singh) or two still plays the bhakti game full-blown.

I enjoy reading your posts, Pat. Ever pass through Ioway?

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Date: Sat, Mar 24, 2001 at 00:39:18 (GMT)
From: Pat Conlon
Email: None
To: El Santo
Subject: Thanks, El Santo - and you're right about
Message:
some of the other Radhasoami gurus. Many of them are full-blown creeps. But even some of the bhakti ones seem to fit in with their small communities and take care of the villagers kindly and the bhakti seems small-scale and comfy not messianically megalomaniacal like ''you know who.''

Se you in Ioway one day.

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Date: Fri, Mar 23, 2001 at 11:31:21 (GMT)
From: janet
Email: None
To: Pat Conlon
Subject: he was always the virtuous one doncha know?
Message:
they are textbook illustrations of their zodiac charts. satpal the virgo--modest, exacting, serving, analytical, fastidious,work work work.
prempal the sagittarius: expansive,philosophical,overindulgent, life of the party, unrestrainable, lets see whats over the next horizon, loves extravagance and spectacle and pomp and Importance. party party party. and an unfailing tendency to blow it just at the most pivotal moment. a legend in their own mind. open mouth, insert foot. grand entrance, pratfall.classic ability to lead everone on, build them up for the Next Big Thing, then leave em hanging. half of their ideas never happen, the other half are too outrageous to work, but they pull em out of the fire and amaze everybody just when you'd written them off.
the trouble is--no one knows which half is which. including they themselves.'

and then we have Hans, the Scorpio:' it's me against the world. no one understands me. i will go it alone. I will withstand all adversity and prove i am stronger than all of you put together. no group decides anything for me! I will win by my passion. No one will keep me from what is mine! I know the deepest Secret, and by it, I shall control you!! You shall be mine! No one else's!

Its my way or the highway! All or nothing! Those who are not with me, are against me! I am the only one!! I know you to your core! i know your deepest, secret fear! you wil surrender all unto me. i possess you! you must desire me with all your being! be loyal, and i will share all with you. betray my trust, and you shall cease to exist in my sight! even death cannot keep me down! like the phoenix, i shall rise again and again. the greatest gift i shall bequeath to [the world/you] shall come from my loins!!'

think about each of them in turn. don't their satsangs, their whole 'take' on existence and how to use knowledge, just reek of their zodiac attitudes?

amazing, aint it?

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Date: Fri, Mar 23, 2001 at 01:41:23 (GMT)
From: Bin Liner
Email: None
To: Francesca
Subject: They didn't give you a stick Fran.....
Message:
....because private armies are illegal in Anglo/Americano land , & thank god & our forefathers for that.

What would you have done if you'd been issued with one ?

What would I have done ?

Best not to dwell on it too much .

A couple of years ago I met up with a real old Rip Van Winkle
premie/hippie , grey hair down to the waist , with a taste for
strange cacti grated onto his breakfast cornflakes .

This guy had gone to India to get Rawat's darshan , but got confused & ended up at the bbj fest instead.

It took him quite a while to realise his mistake , seeing as he got taken in hand & plonked on a podium in front of the stage along with the other Western guests.

However when big brother took the throne he freaked & made for the exit.

Well , they didn't want him to split , but in trying to find a way out he landed backstage at one point & was confronted by men with automatic rifles .

They chucked him out sharpish.

I know this guy is unlikely to get a computer , so he'll never find out about the Rawat family business .

It's sad , I liked him a lot.

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Date: Fri, Mar 23, 2001 at 05:27:40 (GMT)
From: Francesca
Email: None
To: Bin Liner
Subject: YOW!!! n/t
Message:
n/t
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Date: Thurs, Mar 22, 2001 at 21:09:00 (GMT)
From: Bobby
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: ex-premies now and then - updated
Message:
Carol and Richard with now and then pix
Portland Oregon premies 1975 on page 2

ex-premies now and then

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Date: Sun, Mar 25, 2001 at 05:45:11 (GMT)
From: DV
Email: None
To: Bobby
Subject: Hey Bobby.
Message:
This post will probably disapear before you read it, but anyway, there is a person in that photo that I was wondering if you could identify for me. I heard a rumor that he committed suicide. I knew him since childhood. His name is Henry ( and/or Carl) Kamm. I think he lived in Portland as a premie, and I was hoping if anyone in that photo may still be around and may know his fate.
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Date: Thurs, Mar 22, 2001 at 21:42:02 (GMT)
From: Brian Smith
Email: None
To: Bobby
Subject: Thanks for the memories Bobby
Message:
I was there at that time although I am not in the shot I recall being at work and just missing the pic shot.
I remember all of those faces and can still recall some of the names. Michael Bergman is there in the shot as well so I think the time of this photo was earlier than 75, more like late 73.

This is a great encapsulation of the time and of the people and friends that I came up with here in Portland.
I guess ignorance is bliss, even though I know now that I was extremely miss-guided, reflecting back on all of these old premies rekindled many fond memories and times shared with these folks.

There was some good that came from this experience, and I found it in the people and friends that I met along the way.

Thanks for the memories

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Date: Fri, Mar 23, 2001 at 16:57:36 (GMT)
From: Carol
Email: None
To: Brian Smith
Subject: No the date is right
Message:
I know the date because of Noah on my lap. He was born Oct. 1975 and is less than a year old here. I'm in the purple coat. My husband of that time is Jim sitting behind me to the left in the picture. My son Jeff and his Aunt Tana are on the bottom right.

Miles Armstrong, my dear friend who died in 1999 is the third from the left, top.

Brian, why didn't you say you were from Portland when I asked you before? You know me!

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Date: Fri, Mar 23, 2001 at 17:56:51 (GMT)
From: and...
Email: None
To: Carol
Subject: and the baby on my lap is the man the left in Now
Message:
My sons Noah and Michael. We were feeling a bit giddy!
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Date: Fri, Mar 23, 2001 at 17:06:38 (GMT)
From: Carol
Email: None
To: Brian
Subject: Oops, Brian, I read your answer below
Message:
Again, I am sorry.
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Date: Thurs, Mar 22, 2001 at 21:21:43 (GMT)
From: Pat Conlon
Email: None
To: Bobby
Subject: ex-premies now and then - thanks, Bobby NT
Message:
k
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Date: Thurs, Mar 22, 2001 at 20:32:20 (GMT)
From: berni
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: Old Romantic to Jim the pragmatist
Message:
I'm probably breaking all the rules by posting this at the top but I'm new here so don't ban me just yet and it seems that posts disappear down to the inactive index before you can blink -so forgive me this once - this is in reply to Jim from a post by Cerise titled 'my post is almost outa sight' ( I know what you mean Cerise)

Hi Jim,
Nice to meet you too. Thanks for your response; I will be buying 'Unweaving the Rainbow' ASAP - when I have time to read it is another matter.
You say he misses the point?
there's no way that science and reality could ever keep up with magical thinking. I mean, come on, eh! However wonderful the real world is, it's limited. Fantasy isn't.
In the spirit of the dialectic i'll have to disagree. Back to my previous inaccurate quote about 'more things in heaven and earth' and add to that the old cliché 'truth is stranger than fiction'. We are constantly discovering things that we never imagined and the things that many have imagined often come true ( look at genetic engineering, cloning, the internet.....) As to the limitations of the real world - the boundaries continue to expand. We haven't found the end of the Universe yet have we? but more importantly we are always finding new ways to ease the pain and take control of the lousy hand that life has sometimes dealt us - there was a fascinating documentary on tv recently about some guy with Parkinson’s disease, whose violent shaking ( a side effect of the synthetic dopamine? given to relieve the symptoms ) was ended when he took Ecstasy and has since been the subject of studies at some Manchester College which look like providing a far better cure for this terrible affliction.
But I digress - and I am probably just being awkward. What I'd really like to take issue with is the way you see 'romantic'. I know it's a grey area and open to misinterpretation but I did not mean it in any way connected to Liz Taylor (bless the ole philanthropissed) or her best mate Michael Jackson. I digress again but did you see the wedding of Uri Geller with MJ and his crutches? - no that whole scene is not what I meant by romantic. What I meant was when you first fell in love. You thought about your partner day and night, the feeling that you had gave you the strength and courage to endure almost anything.
Or when you hear a piece of music, or see a painting that makes the hair on the back of your neck stand up and you get a queasy feeling in your tummy.
Or when someone does you a favour and there is no rhyme or reason to it - even when you are the one doing the favour or contributing to some charity that helps total strangers. Where's the logic in any of this?
You say 'We've all got a bit of that shit, I guess. but I think there may be something more to it than waste matter.
I've always hated the 'work ethic', 'deferred gratification' and all those pragmatic ways of looking at life - all perfectly reasonable but after a hard day at the office or the coal face - if we didn't think there was more to life than that then pass the sleeping pills.
Mind you what do I know. I fell for a 13 year old kid telling me to surrender the reigns of my life to him or I would be eternally damned?
All the best
Berni

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Date: Thurs, Mar 22, 2001 at 17:31:51 (GMT)
From: Malibu Council Lurk
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: Rawat approved to take a Crap - with conditions !
Message:
f. Application No. 4-00-180 (SEVA, Malibu) Application of SEVA Corporation of America for 475 sq.ft. gate house, trash enclosure, dog run, two entry gates, fencing, and septic system, at 5812 South Rambla Del Orto, in Malibu, Los Angeles County. (SMH-V) [APPROVED WITH CONDITIONS]

This just in from a very reliable source:

Prem Pal Singh Rawat shits entirely too much. The City of Malibu is considering placing a ceiling limit on the amount of shit flowing from the Rawat family and their friends.

Stay tuned for more info.
MCL

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Date: Fri, Mar 23, 2001 at 11:16:38 (GMT)
From: AJW
Email: None
To: Malibu Council Lurk
Subject: The Captain need more space.
Message:
Hi MCL,

I wonder if the Captain has a never-ending, unsatiable desire to make his house bigger, just like he has a constant desire for a bigger better private jet.

Maybe somebody should tell him happiness is not an attribute of matter, but a quality of soul and that material gratification will never satisfy that longing within.

Anth who needs more spacecake

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Date: Fri, Mar 23, 2001 at 14:40:09 (GMT)
From: salam
Email: None
To: AJW
Subject: Anth, you need to be deprogrammed!
Message:
Hasn't anyone told you yet?
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Date: Fri, Mar 23, 2001 at 03:37:10 (GMT)
From: such
Email: None
To: Malibu Council Lurk
Subject: gigo (nt
Message:
nt
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Date: Thurs, Mar 22, 2001 at 16:48:31 (GMT)
From: Nigel
Email: nigel@redcrow.demon.co.uk
To: Everyone
Subject: Consciousness: reply to G from inactive (semi-OT)
Message:
I have marked this post 'semi-OT' but I think it goes to the heart of the cult's belief system centering as it does on notions of 'inifinite' or 'eternal' consciousness etc. - terms which are casually chucked around by new-agers and gurus as if they represented some sort of higher understanding, when the terms are, I think, no more than vacuous, feelgood waffle. G had replied to a longer post of mine about consciousness...

(n)>'Cartesian 'ghost in the machine' hovering in the vicinity of the pineal gland'

(g)>I don't believe in Cartesian duality nor that a ghost hovers near the pineal gland.
'in a coma', 'deep sleep'

Well Descartes certainly held that belief. (As a product of his age, you can't really blame him for that.)

(g)>You don't know whether people in comas have awareness or not. I'm not limiting consciousness to mean being awake, aware of the physical world. Ditto for deep sleep. How do you know whether you experience something during deep sleep? Simply because you don't remember? Suppose someone suffers amnesia and doesn't remember what happened the previous day? Does that mean they had no awareness? Second, even if people in comas or deep sleep are totally devoid of awareness (their awareness skips over physical time), that doesn't imply that consciousness is material. Are you assuming that awareness exists within physical space and time?

I am convinced by the medical evidence that memory is integral to consciousness; not memory for information, but simply the registering of one's perceptions or internal processes involves memory centres of the brain.

If a former coma patient has no memory of being conscious during the coma, all available indicators would seem to confirm that. A person wide awake will report being aware, their awareness will be observable and an MRI scan will show predicatable patterns of activity. If a patient shows a mere flicker of consciousness, this too will be observable and the brain scan will show a flicker of appropriate activity. No consciousness: nothing visible, no relevant neural indicator. I know what that says to me, and yes it certainly does place consciousness within physical space and time. To believe otherwise requires the calling-in of unknowns, for which there is no reliable evidence. Again, it's about Occam's Razor.

(n)> 'How, if consciousness were independent of our biological selves, could a doctor's anaesthetic knock us out in five seconds flat - or at all?'

(g)>It's waking consciousness that gets knocked out. I didn't say that the state of our consciousness is independent of biology, drugs, etc. It obviously isn't. I don't know why you're even bringing this up. You seem to believe there must be a dichotomy between Cartesian duality and what you believe.

Depends what you mean by 'Cartesian duality'. Decartes believed an independent mind/self/soul could control the body without being a product of that body. In that sense there is a yawning gulf between his view and mine.

What evidence - if you have any - is there for consciousness manifesting anywhere outside of a living, waking brain? And without it why bother speculating on its existence? The only reason I can think of is that said belief will facilitate other beliefs the believer enjoys holding regarding the soul and its supposed immortality.

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Date: Thurs, Mar 22, 2001 at 21:11:33 (GMT)
From: Jerry
Email: None
To: Nigel
Subject: What about memes, Nige?
Message:
I suspect the 'spiritualization' of consciousness stems back to a time more ignorant than our own when less was known about the correlates between brain chemistry and conscious experience. Today, it's just a meme that's been handed down from generation to generation, in the eastern world mostly, and now thanks to the guru invasion of the sixties and seventies (Should I say 'Fuck the Beatles!' for this), the meme has washed up on the shores of the western world to infect a whole generation of new-agers who never would have thought this way had said invasion never occurred.
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Date: Thurs, Mar 22, 2001 at 20:59:42 (GMT)
From: berni
Email: None
To: Nigel
Subject: Consciousness: reply to G from inactive (semi-OT)
Message:
Descartes - ooh yes, I think I was a devotee of him before GM. Another or many people I mistook for heroes.
It sounded so convincing 'I think therefore I am'. Then I read Wittgenstien ( well a few pages) and agreed that this was such an arrogant statement and fell for his argument that reality exists regardless of what we think and that to make such a statement meant that you were giving up on trying to find out anything. I wish I could remember the rest of W. but it's been a while.
there was one thing though about the pursuit of 'self realisation' - he said it was just as likely as scissors cutting themselves.
So, I'm with you Nigel on Descartes - wasn't he famous for being a 'drunken ole fart' - After all Aristotle was famous for his drinking problem :)
Berni

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Date: Fri, Mar 23, 2001 at 16:07:27 (GMT)
From: Nigel
Email: None
To: berni
Subject: No, 'Jean-Paul Satre was a drunken fart!'
Message:
And 'Aristotle hit the bottle' as I recall. Forgotten the rest..
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Date: Thurs, Mar 22, 2001 at 19:59:41 (GMT)
From: G
Email: None
To: Nigel
Subject: Consciousness
Message:
'Well Descartes certainly held that belief.'

So?

'I am convinced by the medical evidence that memory is integral to consciousness ... MRI scan ...'

I'll repeat my question, if someone suffers anmesia and doesn't remember the previous day, does that mean that they had no awareness the day before? It is merely your opinion that they are actually measuring awareness, and that's based on your assumption that brain activity is all there is to consciousness. It's circular reasoning and I disagree. How is it that we can be aware of multiple sensations at the same time? This is evidence that awareness is not within physical space and time. I don't need to call in any unknown. No, it's not about Occam's Razor, which is a tool, and what constitutes 'unnecessary complexity' is debatable. You think that your opinion about what's unnecessary in this case is right. So what? I think you are improperly using this tool.

'Decartes believed an independent mind/self/soul could control the body without being a product of that body.'

There are gradations between total independence and total dependence. I'm not saying a totally independent mind has total control over the body. I think you are using a 'straw man' argument.

'What evidence - if you have any - is there for consciousness manifesting anywhere outside of a living, waking brain?'

The main evidence is the nature of our qualia. We are aware of multiple sensations at the same time. Also, whereas scientists have learned a great deal about brain function, they have not found an explanation for awareness and qualia. A few have even thrown up their hands and basically said that qualia are not real, which is totally absurd. I don't think our awareness is really within physical space and time, it just seems that way.
There is other evidence, but what's the use of discussing this? You have already rejected outright all evidence that doesn't support your theory. As to a rock being aware, I don't believe that, but what do I know?

'If I don't see it, it's not there.'
That seems to be your belief system. I totally disagree.

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Date: Thurs, Mar 22, 2001 at 16:53:16 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Nigel
Subject: Amen, brudda Nigel!
Message:
What evidence - if you have any - is there for consciousness manifesting anywhere outside of a living, waking brain? And without it why bother speculating on its existence?

My favorite questions regarding all this.

Something so simple even a layperson like me can get it.

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Date: Fri, Mar 23, 2001 at 21:44:13 (GMT)
From: Bryn
Email: bryndaviesesq@hotmail.com
To: Jim
Subject: Amen, brudda Nigel!
Message:
The consciousness to evaluate such a matter could of course only arise in a living awake brain. So at one level the question will always prove itself to be well founded. I prefer a fuzzier approach more along the lines of characterising my concept of consciousness.

What about the the animals? It's not human consciousness but the fact that it is consciousness outside a waking human brain could suggest a possibility of a more widespread location of consciousness.?

Doesn't the human organism replace its substance over a period of years? How is this situation compatable with the persistence of memory. It could argue for a looser connection between memory- consciousness and brain.

The faculty of imagination, when experienced in after-images, has a living out of the body feel. I know this is a dodgy one. But self-reflection (for me at least) has to asign this experience to the 'non-spatial' dept. It is focused around my brain, but not in it.(Rawat has got rich on this)

What is wrong with speculation. Every hypothesis is no more than a speculation at its moment of birth. The hypothesis arrives. Surely an allowable question is 'where' did it come from?

One could reverse your question above and demand: By what reasoning do you corral consciousness into the single organ of the brain and then seek to enquire why it is not to be found anywhere else? The human organism is profoundly intergrated with its environment. So to decide to limit consciousness to a brain only location could be willfully to call a portion of the phenomenon the entire phenomenon.

Or something. Love Bryn

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Date: Sat, Mar 24, 2001 at 01:58:30 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Bryn
Subject: I'll try this
Message:
The consciousness to evaluate such a matter could of course only arise in a living awake brain. So at one level the question will always prove itself to be well founded. I prefer a fuzzier approach more along the lines of characterising my concept of consciousness.

Sorry, Bryn, but not sure what you mean there.

What about the the animals? It's not human consciousness but the fact that it is consciousness outside a waking human brain could suggest a possibility of a more widespread location of consciousness.?

Not sure there either but, if it's any help, I certainly think that animals have consciousness. They've got brains, don't they? Brains are a necessary, although insufficient, prerequisite for consciousness. No brain, no consciousness.

Doesn't the human organism replace its substance over a period of years? How is this situation compatable with the persistence of memory. It could argue for a looser connection between memory- consciousness and brain.

I'm not a brain scientist, biologist or doctor but I think that this isn't a real problem for any of them. The body replaces cells, when it does, gradually. I don't know the exact mechanism but I don't think there's anything in the process that suggests any sort of 'looser connection' like your mention. In any event, I don't think we replace brain cells period. Although maybe we do. I seem to have read something recently that says that, in fact, we might.

The faculty of imagination, when experienced in after-images, has a living out of the body feel. I know this is a dodgy one. But self-reflection (for me at least) has to asign this experience to the 'non-spatial' dept. It is focused around my brain, but not in it.(Rawat has got rich on this)

Naw, that doesn't impress. Imagination's in the brain just like all the other mental faculties. I can't imagine otherwise and know of no evidence to that effect either.

What is wrong with speculation. Every hypothesis is no more than a speculation at its moment of birth. The hypothesis arrives. Surely an allowable question is 'where' did it come from?

What are you saying? That hypotheses come from somewhere outside the brain? Now why in the world would you say that?

One could reverse your question above and demand: By what reasoning do you corral consciousness into the single organ of the brain and then seek to enquire why it is not to be found anywhere else? The human organism is profoundly intergrated with its environment. So to decide to limit consciousness to a brain only location could be willfully to call a portion of the phenomenon the entire phenomenon.

What do you think a brain is, anyway? Have you read much about them? Maybe you should. You seem interested enough. Why not read some science instead of just wondering aloud? There are so many good, entertaining and eminently readable books on topic out there. My guess is that you'd enjoy the effort.

Or something. Love Bryn

You must be female, huh? Tell me you're female.

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Date: Sat, Mar 24, 2001 at 18:34:51 (GMT)
From: Bryn
Email: bryndaviesesq@hotmail
To: Jim
Subject: Pity I didn't impress you-I would have liked to.
Message:
Wondering out loud is a good thing. It is the future of communication in my opinion. I can never be sure of what I think, until I've heard how it sounds.
I really don't want to have to do the clarifying what I mean in the light of what I think you mean about what I was trying to mean process. I would if this was a talking situation. Writing is so solitary. Hope that's ok with you.
I am flattered that you think I'm female! But I'm not. If I told you I was, as you requested me to, would you disagree with me?
Love Bryn
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Date: Thurs, Mar 22, 2001 at 19:41:28 (GMT)
From: Francesca
Email: None
To: Jim and Nigel
Subject: First sentence agreed
Message:
second sentence ...

different strokes for different folks. I enjoy exploring nonordinary reality, and yet I seem to be finding that it's not something separate for ordinary reality.

Whether I can do that, or contact any of that stuff I seem to contact 'out there' or 'in there' without a living, waking brain is something that I don't know. And yes, of this stuff, religions are made.

To quote old Lardy: 'Die and see.' (his answer to questions about reincarnation)

He did say some good stuff, because is is SUCH and arrogant wise-ass.

--f

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Date: Thurs, Mar 22, 2001 at 19:49:45 (GMT)
From: Pat Conlon
Email: None
To: Francesca
Subject: Francesca, now you know why I call myself agnostic
Message:
My hunch is that my consciousness is a function of my brain and will disappear when the brain dies and decomposes. That energy will dissolve back into formless energy before turning into daisies. I do not have an immortal soul with an identity.

Maybe we can tune into the energy of which matter is composed but right now only eastern mystic mumbo-jumbo talks about that and I have become allergic to ALL mysticism.

I meditate for my mental health, peace of mind and subjective joy. I cannot be arrogant enough to label what I experience as the TRUTH.

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Date: Thurs, Mar 22, 2001 at 20:25:55 (GMT)
From: Jerry
Email: None
To: Pat Conlon
Subject: Francesca, now you know why I call myself agnostic
Message:
Nice post, Pat. I only wish I could get as much out of meditation as you do. As it is, I have to spend a fortune on computer games to get a rush. Meditation would be so much cheaper.
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Date: Thurs, Mar 22, 2001 at 20:40:44 (GMT)
From: Pat Conlon
Email: None
To: Jerry
Subject: I've always been a cheap drunk, Jerry
Message:
Doesn't take much to get me high. Why, I get darshan from my dogs. Just kidding.
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Date: Fri, Mar 23, 2001 at 02:24:58 (GMT)
From: Helen
Email: None
To: Pat Conlon
Subject: doggy darshan
Message:
Hey, darshan from dogs is far better than from M. Dogs never lie about love after all and Maharaji DOES!!
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Date: Fri, Mar 23, 2001 at 02:32:54 (GMT)
From: Pat Conlon
Email: None
To: Helen
Subject: doggy darshan see pic above, Helen - NT
Message:
k
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Date: Fri, Mar 23, 2001 at 02:59:06 (GMT)
From: Helen
Email: None
To: Pat Conlon
Subject: LOL, my dog is queen bee too (nt)
Message:
hdfsajhdsah
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Date: Thurs, Mar 22, 2001 at 19:52:56 (GMT)
From: Francesca
Email: None
To: Pat Conlon
Subject: Yes it's wise not to get out there too deep!
Message:
Too many paradigm shifts all ending up with the same unanswerable questions. 'Losing my religion.'

Love --f

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Date: Thurs, Mar 22, 2001 at 16:07:10 (GMT)
From: Patrick Wilson
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: Interesting new Indian sites online .
Message:
I have been looking at these websites which have recently sprung up. They are of particular interest because they are the websites of the Indian Group that, just like Divine Light Mission, claims descent from the gurus Swarupanand and before him, Dayal Ji . In fact they have the very same photos of these gentlemen that Mahaarji himself has posted on his website at www.maharaji.org (in the 'Masters' section) ., where he states firmly 'This is the traceable history thus far.'

On this site you will see that their 'Shree Dada Guru' is none other than Maharaji's 'Dayal Ji' aka 'Advaitanand' (same photo) also their 'Shree Nagli Niwasi Bhagwan aka 'Guru Maharaj ji' aka 'Swarupanand' is of course Shri Hans' guru (Maharaji's dad's guru). There display the same mugshots of this rather unremarkable looking, little bespectacled Indian gentleman who was worshipped by so many, including Maharaji's dad, as the Living Lord .

On this website there is a link to a 'Gallery' of all their favourite 'divine' personages. At the top you will see Dayal Ji and Swarupanand and below literally dozens of photos and details about the subsequent Mahatmas .

The anonymous person who referred me to this site says that he has been in touch with this organisation in India (you can email him from the site) and was informed that when Swarupanand died he empowered all the named mahatmas (100s of them) mentioned on the web site to continue his work. It is somewhat strange that Hans ji wasn't mentioned . However it is clear from the early DLM documents (reproduced on this site) that Shri Hans was a very controversial guru who attracted major opposition because, for example, he initiated women (which was unthinkable to some people). In fact DLM say that his denigrators went to considerable lengths to blacken his name - rather like EPO I guess - circulating 'tracts' etc. History repeats itself.

Mike Finch told me this:

I remember years ago when I went with Gurucharnand to Sarupanand's temple in Leicester, he was talking about this, saying that Sarupanand DID pass the mantle on to Shri Hans, but did not let any of the other mahatmas know because they would be jealous or something, and there was generally a big bust up with lots of ill-feeling all round. It is certainly is possible.

Possible yes, but rather unlikely merely since there a lot of testaments to the contrary. One thing for sure is that we'll never really know the truth (with a small 't') because the mists of time and the vagaries of successive generations of would-be Masters, have successfully enveloped and obscured the facts. They all like to believe that they have this noble line of descent with 'The Saints' of India.

I spoke with a well-known UK premie figure the other day who said that he strongly believes Maharaji to be the only person alive today giving this message. My question is, what about all these other Gurus? When they sit down and practice the same meditation techniques, why do you suppose their experience is less valid, especially since they are manifestly raving about their experience just like Maharaji's premies do? How can one judge that?

Take Maharaji's brother Satpal whose website clearly proves that someone else is indeed managing to propogate Knowledge to the satisfaction of many of his followers even as far as here in the West. Who can argue that Maharaji has the sole power to show this stuff any more? Also see my 'Journey' (under 'Anon') where I have included Professor David Lane's description of the experiment he did revealing the techniques to his class of students in California. Despite the fact that he claimed no special powers or 'Grace' and the students had no former months of satsang or preparation, they all saw and felt the exact same things that we all did in our long prepared-for initiations ceremonies into Knowledge.

It seems to me that what Maharaji provides (that we may feel we need) is simply the 'structure' in terms of encouragement and being given reasons why we should practice this stuff.

It was rather telling that in my conversation with the aforementioned prominent premie, I remarked that I still practice meditation although I don't do it religiously . Indeed I do it when I feel like it, not because I have an obligation or am afraid of being eaten up by 'Mind' and delusion if I don't. I said 'I don't do it every day'. The reply was straightaway 'Oh but you should!' Whilst I appreciate that this reflected his enthusiasm for the results of his own practice, I don't think I imagined that there was an element of 'you should do it or else you'll be missing out on something very critical'. My own experience is that there can be a negative addictive effect of fearful indulgence in any practice like this. For example, many premies say 'when I practice I have a better day - a richer experience' The impliction and experience is that it is otherwise worse.

My experience is, and was, that sometimes I actually have a bad day even though I meditate faithfully in the morning. So although it is advocated that by being 'aware of the breath' and focussed on the feeling etc. one becomes protected from the world or suffering -of course this is not really always the case. Again, my experience is that it only takes, for example, a bad turn of health, to put me right back in my body. So I embrace life as being ok in all these states of mind. In fact I think those premies who desperately cling to 'that experience' become ironically more rigid and locked into their 'egoistic' own worlds than ever. So maybe the secret to becoming relaxed is to stop practicing so religiously!

Anyway here are the links


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Date: Thurs, Mar 22, 2001 at 21:50:40 (GMT)
From: G
Email: None
To: Patrick Wilson
Subject: 'virtual puja'
Message:
At www.shreenanglisahib.com there is 'virtual puja'. The arti tray and the flowers are movable. Idol worship via the internet. Who would have thought that computer mouses would be used as instruments in religious rituals.
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Date: Sat, Mar 24, 2001 at 04:27:42 (GMT)
From: la-ex
Email: None
To: G
Subject: I've got an idea,but need eDrek or someone who
Message:
is a computer whiz to make it happen....

Why don't we set up our own 'virtual puja' site for those premies who can't afford to get the real 'puja' in person?

(Exes could frequent the site as well, in the privacy of their own home, if they miss the 'good old days', and they wouldn't have to tell anyone...)

Of course, once we have them 'virtual puja-ing' on the EPO site, they're just a mouse click away from the 'truth about maharaji'...

I'd work on it myself, but I'm a computer luddite...

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Date: Sat, Mar 24, 2001 at 19:30:18 (GMT)
From: G
Email: None
To: la-ex
Subject: tech details
Message:
The moving of the arti tray and flowers is done with JavaScript. The JavaScript code is included inline in the HTML page, which can be seen with 'view source'. Different versions of the HTML page are probably needed for the different browsers. The banner at the top is done with Shockwave Flash. The arti tray is an animated gif. The HTML and images could be saved and modified.
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Date: Thurs, Mar 22, 2001 at 18:32:57 (GMT)
From: Jean-Michel
Email: None
To: Patrick Wilson
Subject: I'll HAVE TO update my website!!
Message:
Great find !!
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Date: Thurs, Mar 22, 2001 at 17:09:58 (GMT)
From: Francesca
Email: None
To: Patrick Wilson
Subject: Great POST on not practicing religiously
Message:
Thanks for sharing those thoughts, Patrick, and wording your experience so eloquently. Although I don't practice K, I practice various forms of meditation, and I totally agree with what you've expressed, negative addictive effects, using it to protect oneself from the world rather than accepting life (we can't always be 'enjoying life'). You are absolutely right about the egotistical effect of clinging to 'the experience' having the negative effect of locking one back into one's ego. After all, who is clinging, and who is eperiencing -- why me, me, me! Embracing life as being OK in 'all these states of mind' can be the best medicine and meditation.

Boy am I still learning. But that's a good thing.

Peace, be well, Francesca

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Date: Thurs, Mar 22, 2001 at 16:54:03 (GMT)
From: WMary
Email: None
To: all
Subject: Maybe gurucharanand...
Message:
is the brains behind the entire operation. He figured he'd hook the little kid up....make up a big story about him being the next in the lineage.....head over to America (the land of opportunity) and make it big...ride his coat tails, knowing that the kid would take care of him-besides charanand is old school, does'nt require much-a bed of nails in a small hotel will suffice. Then sit back and watch as the kid runs the operation and either sinks or swims.
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Date: Thurs, Mar 22, 2001 at 16:34:30 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Patrick Wilson
Subject: Thank you SO much, Patrick -- and an idea
Message:
Thanks for the links and thanks for the post. This one's a keeper for sure.

You know, I think Mahatma Guru Charananad Ji is lying. It just doesn't make sense to me that one guru's going to secretly give his imprimatur to one disciple with nothing to prove the fact, especially when he knows that there's a seething pit of gape-mouthed snakes all vying for the prize. How could that be? I mean it's not as if, once the 'mantle' was transferred, Shri Hans had anything to show for it to prove hsi 'ascendancy' and stop any opposition. Indeed, the exact opposite was true. No, sounds like bullshit to me.

By the way, looking at the 'Gallery' of conmen, especially with the 'newly added' ones (like a common pron site, or so I'm told), made me think how funny it would be for us to make our own gallery only using all our own pictures suitably morphed and the like. Wouldn't it be a gas to see Janet as some sort of 'Mata Ji'? No? Fine then go down a little further and look for Selene! Or Abi or anyone. And Patrick C. as some sort of Bubba Free John? Too funny, eh?

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Date: Fri, Mar 23, 2001 at 12:08:12 (GMT)
From: janet
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: this i could get INTO! i have a sari...
Message:
and my hair is a lot greyer now since the last pic. i could easily doll myself up with tilak and sandal paste and a sari and repackage myself as some 'ascended master'

aren't we all?

let's see....
call me...KaliMata
yes. i think that will do nicely.
I have realized my Kali nature.i can kill my children because i can bring them forth again at will. I am the mother of the KaliYuga. That is why i make my home in the world's capitol of Maya--los angeles. Where illusion is king and death is a daily ritual.
who's next?
pat conlon--you're an armchair yogi--how bout you in yoga whites on an armchair with a tome open on your knees, teaching us religious history? get yourself a turban somewhere. yeah we'll call you 'the Turban from Durban'

whaddya think?

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Date: Thurs, Mar 22, 2001 at 22:39:51 (GMT)
From: Anon
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: OK Jim..U need to check this...
Message:
link to some more Swamis
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Date: Fri, Mar 23, 2001 at 16:28:03 (GMT)
From: Susan
Email: None
To: Anon
Subject: I loved it you Swamis!!!!!
Message:
thanks for the work! It was fun!
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Date: Fri, Mar 23, 2001 at 14:20:04 (GMT)
From: Abi
Email: None
To: Anon
Subject: OK Jim..U need to check this...
Message:
Oh, so funny! How clever. Priceless.

Swami ? is cute.

Can someone morph pics of M as a large hamster, a rat, the fat man who exploded from The Meaning of Life, a hippo in a tutu, or ET?

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Date: Fri, Mar 23, 2001 at 17:11:07 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Abi
Subject: Yeah, I thought so too
Message:
Swami ? is cute.

There are many masters, but this guy....I almost feel like he knows me inside out. Uncanny.

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Date: Sat, Mar 24, 2001 at 01:48:44 (GMT)
From: Abi
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Yeah, I thought so too
Message:
Oh, you mean that you.. and, oh, really?! Swooooon. And here I was imagining all along that you looked like Dworkins. %)
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Date: Fri, Mar 23, 2001 at 17:20:41 (GMT)
From: Steve Quint
Email: the_avenger55@hotmail.com
To: Jim
Subject: Yeah, I thought so too
Message:
You find the guy cute too? What does Laurie think of that?

Steve

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Date: Fri, Mar 23, 2001 at 17:27:43 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Steve Quint
Subject: I think she's completely into it (nt)
Message:
ggggggg
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Date: Fri, Mar 23, 2001 at 17:04:42 (GMT)
From: Francesca
Email: None
To: Abi
Subject: There is a tutu picture actually ...
Message:
I think it is on Sir Dave's site -- or one of the sites with a choice of pictures of Rawat that have been, well shall we say, slightly altered.

I don't have the link offhand but it's been posted several times in the last onslaught.

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Date: Fri, Mar 23, 2001 at 12:21:06 (GMT)
From: janet
Email: None
To: Anon
Subject: excellent. just how i see myself. saved it
Message:
to my scrapbook. thanks for revealing me in my true nature. gotta get me one of those white cotton swaths of fabric an shit. i'll look just like all the other freaks on venice beach. i can pose with harry perry in his turban and yoga whites on skates,,and my son's monk friend 'Bodhi' in his sackcloth robes. the tourists will pay big bucks to pose with us.
now i can pick up some spare cash this summer. problem solved. why didnt i think of this!?
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Date: Fri, Mar 23, 2001 at 07:37:07 (GMT)
From: Loaf
Email: None
To: Anon
Subject: I have wept and hooted for 8 minutes....so far..
Message:
Oh bliss joy and radiant wit !

Where do I send my photo and my $777 ?

Bholay Shree Niggle Bish Ki Jai !!!!

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Date: Fri, Mar 23, 2001 at 05:36:59 (GMT)
From: Francesca
Email: None
To: Anon
Subject: Tears rolling down my face
Message:
I'm trying not to wake up my husband who is sleeping on the couch. What a f-ing hoot! Shri Niggle Bish!

Bowling shriek, and arti farti!

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Date: Fri, Mar 23, 2001 at 04:00:18 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Anon
Subject: That is SOOOOO fucking good!
Message:
I love it. I go to work and spend the day slaving away. I coem home and I'm a saint just like I always wanted to be! Too fucking much. How can I get a copy of these, Patrick? Too fucking much.
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Date: Fri, Mar 23, 2001 at 03:50:05 (GMT)
From: Katie
Email: None
To: Anon
Subject: Anon, that's frightening! (But very funny!)
Message:
The pics look real - clothes really make a difference - yow!
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Date: Thurs, Mar 22, 2001 at 23:09:48 (GMT)
From: Pat Conlon
Email: None
To: Anon
Subject: THAT'S A HOOT. ALL THE SWAMI EXES!!!
Message:
They all look like saints except for Fag Ji (me) who looks like an old debauchee. I wonder why? Thanks anon.
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Date: Thurs, Mar 22, 2001 at 23:03:53 (GMT)
From: G
Email: None
To: all
Subject: ^^^ A MUST SEE ^^^
Message:
Look at the serenity, the love, the joy emanating from those holy faces!
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Date: Thurs, Mar 22, 2001 at 23:50:09 (GMT)
From: G
Email: None
To: all
Subject: ^^^ Anon's Swami Service ^^^
Message:
You too can be an incarnation of God! For just $777, Anon can transform you into a living saint! Just send your picture and $777 to Anon, and he was send you a picture (suitable for framing) of you as The True Swami. For an additional $111, a virtual frame will be included, or for an additional $222, a virtual alter. Accessories are available, such as a mouse-movable arti tray and garland of flowers, Think of the benefits! You can use this picture to get devotees, or if you're less ambitious, just worship yourself!
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Date: Fri, Mar 23, 2001 at 12:31:36 (GMT)
From: Katie H.
Email: None
To: G
Subject: Quit laughing at us, G, and send in YOUR pic:)! nt
Message:
nt
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Date: Fri, Mar 23, 2001 at 17:06:38 (GMT)
From: G
Email: None
To: Katie H.
Subject: Who's laughing at you?
Message:
I'm serious, I see a lot more love, joy, and contentment in your faces than in the faces of those 'gurus'. They look like a bunch of sourpusses, some look downright depressed. It's strange how the trappings around someone can alter peoples' perception of them.
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Date: Fri, Mar 23, 2001 at 18:30:10 (GMT)
From: Katie H.
Email: None
To: G
Subject: Maybe we're all in the wrong business!
Message:
Although I'd be downright depressed myself if I had to be a swami.

BTW, that pic of me looks just like my mom - talk about scary!

Love,
Katie Ma

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Date: Thurs, Mar 22, 2001 at 19:42:48 (GMT)
From: Pat Conlon
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: That was a low blow, Jim
Message:
You said: ''And Patrick C. as some sort of Bubba Free John?''

Jesus Christ, Jim, that's horrible. I hope you were being REALLY ironic when you said that. But who would you be?

Chuck is working on a morphed pic of our dog Margie (aka Maharaji because she's such a bossy bitch) wearing the Krishna crown.

Saint Patrick, dispeller of snakes and lover of the little people.

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Date: Thurs, Mar 22, 2001 at 19:57:44 (GMT)
From: Steve Quint
Email: the_avenger55@hotmail.com
To: Pat Conlon
Subject: I Found A Good Caricature Of Jim
Message:
I've met Jim. I think this is pretty descriptive.
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Date: Thurs, Mar 22, 2001 at 20:04:14 (GMT)
From: Pat Conlon
Email: None
To: Steve Quint
Subject: Jim's a Jewish leprechaun? No wonder I like him NT
Message:
j
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Date: Thurs, Mar 22, 2001 at 20:26:55 (GMT)
From: Steve Quint
Email: the_avenger55@hotmail.com
To: Pat Conlon
Subject: Here's A Really Close Likeness
Message:
I hope Jim doesn't get upset that I'm outing him.

http://pelicanpub.com/childrens/lucky%20o'leprechaun.htm

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Date: Thurs, Mar 22, 2001 at 20:44:18 (GMT)
From: Pat Conlon
Email: None
To: Steve Quint
Subject: Looks like Jim found the pot of gold NT
Message:
j
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Date: Thurs, Mar 22, 2001 at 16:20:56 (GMT)
From: donner
Email: None
To: Patrick Wilson
Subject: Interesting new Indian sites online .
Message:
thanks for al the hard work...very interesting...tho historical
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Date: Thurs, Mar 22, 2001 at 16:23:56 (GMT)
From: Way
Email: None
To: donner
Subject: Thanks, PW, this deserves a permanent link (nt)
Message:
nt
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Date: Thurs, Mar 22, 2001 at 23:29:47 (GMT)
From: Patrick W
Email: None
To: all
Subject: More from 'Shree Nagli Sahib'...
Message:
The friend of mine who initially found this site (but who wishes to remain anonymous) received this rather predictable reply from someone at that website:

'Hans ji Maharaj was one of the men who served shree guru maharaj ji but didnt recieve the divine blessing from shree guru maharaj ji who was the main divine power. shree hans ji maharaj is not accewpted as the successor of shree guru maharj ji beacuse there was no one to take the succession after him . shree guru maharaj ji gave blessing to many saints and mahatams who later formed the ashrams in different part of the world and in india. hans ji maharaj married twice and had sons one satpal maharaj and another balyogeshwar as it is said and written that no is after shree guru maharaj and no one will be there. for more details i will mail you shortly... there is no one after shree guru maharaj ji..... and this balyogeshwar didnt ever recieved blessing from these divine incarnation . so dont, get confused and visit pages of vision, gallery in the site provided where you will find our history that from where the thrown started and where it ended.'

No, NO! You're wrong mate - Mahatma Guru Charanand says so for a start! Bloody hell..no one seems to agree on any part of this history.. What a can of worms.

POOR OLD GOD..HE'S SO MISUNDERSTOOD ISN'T HE?

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Date: Thurs, Mar 22, 2001 at 14:14:11 (GMT)
From: SB
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: Satellite Feed FREE??? Who knows about this?
Message:
Richard says bellow:

From: Richard
Email: None
To: Mercedes
Subject: M's kids help present a new promo video series
Message:
A new 'aspects of knowledge' video series was showcased in Portland. Marolyn speaks on the tape, and Wadi, Daya plus one of the boys introduce each section. So the whole family is joining in on marketing now. Apparently this was very slick and overly scripted - made as some sort of infomercial.
The satellite broadcast are now going to be free to anyone with Dish Network - middle of the night ol' Bubba's channel surfin' 'hey honey come here and check this dang thing out and bring me one of them long necks'.

Is it true? Free?

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Date: Fri, Mar 23, 2001 at 06:38:29 (GMT)
From: Richard
Email: None
To: SB
Subject: The EV video broadcasts may soon be free
Message:
Sorry I just noticed this. Actually got away from the office today and went to a photo exhibit. There is life beyond FV.

As Charles says, Dish Network is a commercial subscription service like cable only via satellite. Direct TV is another similar service. EV got a deal with Direct TV to broadcast videos as a pay per view. EV charged people about $15 to $25 per person per video to receive the broadcast. This is what people watched at the local video presentations - pay per view - and EV was hitting up the local group for $$ per person.

Months ago, EV sent a mailing and a local email requesting that people help sponsor the video broadcasts. You would pay $X per month, direct deduction or via automatic credit card, to help fund the broadcasts. Bizarre but true. The punch line is apparently enough PWKs offered to sponsor the deal so soon the broadcasts will free. So anybody with Dish Network can watch it. Thus the over produced Knowledge infomercial will soon be as available as Ron Popeil and the Rotiserie Grill and No Money Down Real Estate.

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Date: Sat, Mar 24, 2001 at 05:07:21 (GMT)
From: SB
Email: None
To: Richard
Subject: Thanks Richard (nt)
Message:
Nt
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Date: Fri, Mar 23, 2001 at 03:12:15 (GMT)
From: Selene
Email: None
To: SB
Subject: infomercial
Message:
That's the first thing that came to my mind. Right up there with the Tarot card readers and the Singles lines.
way to go M.
I hope you get info on this.
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Date: Sat, Mar 24, 2001 at 05:08:38 (GMT)
From: SB
Email: None
To: Selene
Subject: infomercial
Message:
What a bunch!

Hi darling!

luv u

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Date: Thurs, Mar 22, 2001 at 18:14:22 (GMT)
From: AJW
Email: None
To: SB
Subject: What's 'Dish Network'?
Message:
And how much does it cost?

Maybe it's a pyramid selling organisation that organises home parties, like Tuppeware, except it's just dishes they sell.

Anth losing it more and more each day.

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Date: Fri, Mar 23, 2001 at 00:08:39 (GMT)
From: SB
Email: None
To: AJW
Subject: What's 'Dish Network'?
Message:
Ususally premies had to pay ('donate') for each satellite broadcast certain amount each time and I heard in other place that is going to be free. I am curious to know why he is doing it.

Lost eh? Comparing your state to what? Too much ricola? LOL

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Date: Fri, Mar 23, 2001 at 10:39:48 (GMT)
From: AJW
Email: None
To: SB
Subject: I once was lost but now I'm lost.
Message:
Hi SB,

Ricola,
Booze,
Work,
Children,
Pollution,
General Decay
Old Age
Debt,
Bad Diet
Worry,
Stress
Health.

But not necessarily in that order.

Other than that, things are going along OK.

Anth who can see the light at the end of the tunnel but thinks it might be an oncoming train.

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Date: Thurs, Mar 22, 2001 at 20:36:23 (GMT)
From: Cynthia
Email: None
To: Chuck Sprague
Subject: Dish Network, as in DishNet, or ''Got Dish?''
Message:
The advent of EV and Dishnet came as I was about to leave. It's available through satellite distributors/retailers, and even Sears!

It's advertising, as I read it a couple of years ago, was that it was a satellite program devoted to private broadcasts, as EV uses it, or for corporations to use it for conferences.

It was never free--that must be changing for aspirants. In fact, was quite expensive, especially if the Rotund One was having a two day program somewhere. Not only that, as many of you know, frequently, we'd be paying $25.00/per video feed, with sometimes 2 feeds per day, and often they were broadcasting tapes of a feed ''because they couldn't get the air time,'' or probably needed to edit.

Got Dish? Was, as I remember, a slogan on the many pamphlets send out by EV.

I don't know what the big deal is. We were saying in 1998 that the aspirants shouldn't be paying for these events anyway. But, it's a cult, so what do I know? (snicker)

Best,
Cynthia, Once more buried in 18'' of wet snow, with no let up in sight. Winter Wonderland my ass! Enough is enough! Even the folks with plows on their trucks are getting stuck! Isn't it spring yet?

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Date: Thurs, Mar 22, 2001 at 19:45:25 (GMT)
From: Chuck Sprague
Email: bctanda@hotmail.com
To: AJW
Subject: What's 'Dish Network'?
Message:
Dish Network
is one of the worlds fastest growing satellite dish TV networks, offering the largest amount of channels to choose from. Acording to a review I read on C-Net, they have a reputation of offering off-beat religious programing, that no other satellite broadcasters will touch.

When we left the Committee meetings last Christmas, there was talk in the organization about M's broadcasts being offered for free eventually, as a way to reach new aspriants. It seemed to me that M. was really making an effort to go the televangest route. The churchladies were very excited about it.

- Chuck, who never got the hang of being syncronized.

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Date: Fri, Mar 23, 2001 at 13:09:52 (GMT)
From: janet
Email: None
To: Chuck Sprague
Subject: the dish is 18' across, portable, comes with a
Message:
decoder box. Sears sells em. you point it at the sky at a certain angle for where you are on the globe. YOu can buy em used, new, clearance price back stock or even get one free. Sears had 100$ ones in last year's back stock.
YOu can order the cheapest package of programming for around 10$ a month for the basic stations, or go up by $5 or $10 with each more expansive choices of channells. like cable, you get basic and premium channels. if you order the $35 or $45 dollar pkg, you can be given the dish for free.
i seem to remember that maharaji broadcasts on channel 91 or 95.
for bare bones purists who only wanted the dish to watch him and nothing else, dish would let you buy the satellite tray for 100, and their box and pay a $5 'activation' charge a month to keep the box turned on, and you could pay for MJ's broadcasts on a pay- per- view basis by paying Visions deirectly, and they would give you the access code to punch into the box at broacast time to watch him.
i called last year to ask if i was too poor to afford the asking price, could they let me see them for free, and they hemmed and hawed and asked if i could aford $5 or 10 dollars a month? they threw the 'donation' guilt back on me to decide by.

never did buy the set up. my son was gung ho for us to do it. he wanted 900 channels of global tv to surf!

unlike a cable subscription, which is tied to your local area, you own the dish and can take it with you. you mount it on your house or in an open area with a clear shot at the part of the sky where the nearest relay satellite is for where you are, it connects to your tv by coaxial cable. RF 56 i think.

but you can dismount it and take it with you--or build it a portable stand that you can adjust for angle and azimuth , and with a tv, a generator, the decoder box-- voila--instant image anywhere.

maharaji in the jungles of kenya. maharaji on Mt everest at base camp. maharaji in antarctica. maharaji watching maharaji on the Serenity, halfway to fiji.

yup. its a reality. I cant wait for the day he jamss all global communnication channels and announces 'ATTENTION, PEOPLE OF EARTH...'

or maybe that'll be the hour when jesus finally has it up-to-here and returns through the clouds on his starship the New Jerusalem and busts him for being the antichrist.
«quelle confusion, n'est-ce pas?»

we live in interesting times.

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