Forum Admin -:- To Cerise and Interested Parties -:- Mon, Mar 26, 2001 at 22:44:20 (GMT)

__ cerise -:- this isn't a chat room? -:- Tues, Mar 27, 2001 at 04:38:25 (GMT)

__ __ Abi -:- GO AWAY -:- Tues, Mar 27, 2001 at 07:09:20 (GMT)

__ __ Abi -:- this isn't a chat room? -:- Tues, Mar 27, 2001 at 07:07:03 (GMT)

__ __ __ sean -:- vapid and contrived -:- Tues, Mar 27, 2001 at 12:41:07 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ Abi -:- vapid and contrived -:- Tues, Mar 27, 2001 at 14:27:20 (GMT)

__ __ Bazza -:- Boy do you sound different -:- Tues, Mar 27, 2001 at 05:04:34 (GMT)

__ __ __ cerise -:- oh....so sorry MR Consistent -:- Tues, Mar 27, 2001 at 13:49:26 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ Bazza -:- True colours showing now -:- Tues, Mar 27, 2001 at 21:03:54 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ Nigel -:- Final cerise-related thought... -:- Wed, Mar 28, 2001 at 00:30:52 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ Dermot -:- Nigel -:- Wed, Mar 28, 2001 at 00:39:45 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ Pat Conlon -:- True colours showing now - hear, hear! -:- Tues, Mar 27, 2001 at 21:22:49 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ Cynthia -:- PULEESE, STOP ENGAGING CERISE!!!! -:- Tues, Mar 27, 2001 at 15:06:54 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ JHB -:- My question from below -:- Tues, Mar 27, 2001 at 14:05:48 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ cerise -:- and my attempt at an answer... -:- Tues, Mar 27, 2001 at 14:40:11 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ JHB -:- and my attempt at an answer... -:- Tues, Mar 27, 2001 at 20:20:23 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ cerise -:- cerise has left the building -:- Wed, Mar 28, 2001 at 05:32:28 (GMT)

__ __ __ Dermot -:- between 40 -50 with a girls fake D.license -:))nt -:- Tues, Mar 27, 2001 at 07:34:39 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ cerise -:- Patience smartboy, and keep the flannel warm... -:- Tues, Mar 27, 2001 at 13:52:51 (GMT)

__ Francesca -:- Exactly -- we need to stop being such a bunch of -:- Tues, Mar 27, 2001 at 00:49:32 (GMT)

__ __ Dermot -:- BS Francesca.......dont demean yourself -:- Tues, Mar 27, 2001 at 00:51:29 (GMT)

__ Dermot -:- Totally out of order FA -:- Tues, Mar 27, 2001 at 00:17:21 (GMT)

__ __ Forum Admin -:- Totally out of order FA -:- Tues, Mar 27, 2001 at 00:38:00 (GMT)

__ __ __ Dermot -:- Totally unbelievable...I give up -:- Tues, Mar 27, 2001 at 00:49:34 (GMT)

__ __ moldy warp -:- Dermot check out my conversation with FA a few -:- Tues, Mar 27, 2001 at 00:34:38 (GMT)

__ __ __ Dermot -:- Dermot check out my conversation with FA a few -:- Tues, Mar 27, 2001 at 00:39:00 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ Brian -:- Look at it this way, coach -:- Tues, Mar 27, 2001 at 03:12:38 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ Dermot -:- True.... -:- Tues, Mar 27, 2001 at 03:39:43 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ salam -:- I agree with Dermont -:- Tues, Mar 27, 2001 at 07:04:16 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ cerise -:- and I agree with Salam! -:- Tues, Mar 27, 2001 at 14:13:03 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ salam -:- you're up the creek without a paddle -:- Wed, Mar 28, 2001 at 03:37:54 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ moldy warp -:- Goodonya Dermot Keep catharting nt -:- Tues, Mar 27, 2001 at 00:43:33 (GMT)

__ __ DERMOT -:- ps -:- Tues, Mar 27, 2001 at 00:21:03 (GMT)

__ __ __ Cynthia -:- I don't advocate censorship.... -:- Tues, Mar 27, 2001 at 01:32:47 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ Chuck Sprague -:- Good advice Cynthia.... -:- Tues, Mar 27, 2001 at 02:52:42 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ Cynthia -:- Good advice Cynthia....(re: my computer) (OT) -:- Tues, Mar 27, 2001 at 14:56:58 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ Chuck Sprague -:- The voice isn't mine, it's Marvin the Martian... -:- Tues, Mar 27, 2001 at 19:53:21 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ Dermot -:- blabbermouth Dermot is genuinely humbled (nt) -:- Tues, Mar 27, 2001 at 02:59:21 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ Marianne -:- It's ok, Dermot -:- Tues, Mar 27, 2001 at 12:35:41 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Dermot -:- Hi Marianne -:- Tues, Mar 27, 2001 at 22:24:12 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Selene -:- Dermot please don't beat yourself up -:- Tues, Mar 27, 2001 at 22:33:57 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Katie H -:- Dermot please don't beat yourself up - I agree -:- Tues, Mar 27, 2001 at 22:56:18 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Selene -:- well ok we can share it 60/40 -:- Tues, Mar 27, 2001 at 22:59:22 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Dermot -:- Hey u 2 masochists..... -:- Tues, Mar 27, 2001 at 23:36:46 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Katie H -:- Hey Dermot -:- Wed, Mar 28, 2001 at 01:17:06 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Katie H. -:- well ok we can share it 60/40 -:- Tues, Mar 27, 2001 at 23:04:04 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Katie H. -:- Agree with Marianne -:- Tues, Mar 27, 2001 at 13:52:24 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Cynthia -:- Absolutely, Katie and Marianne -:- Tues, Mar 27, 2001 at 14:48:42 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Katie H. -:- Absolutely, Cynthia -:- Tues, Mar 27, 2001 at 14:59:01 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Katie H. -:- P.S. Another issue -:- Tues, Mar 27, 2001 at 15:17:54 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Cynthia -:- P.S. Another issue -:- Tues, Mar 27, 2001 at 15:56:51 (GMT)

Chuck Sprague -:- The things visiting premies don't see about us... -:- Mon, Mar 26, 2001 at 21:17:07 (GMT)

__ such -:- kindling?I thought party was a weenie roast!LOL(nt -:- Tues, Mar 27, 2001 at 03:16:15 (GMT)

__ Pat Conlon -:- Also why do we hang here and keep posting? -:- Tues, Mar 27, 2001 at 02:58:46 (GMT)

__ __ Brian Smith -:- This is the only place I can go for the medicine -:- Tues, Mar 27, 2001 at 07:42:50 (GMT)

__ __ __ moldy warp -:- Agree muchly Brian love Moldy nt -:- Tues, Mar 27, 2001 at 23:59:22 (GMT)

__ Dermot -:- Well said Chuck...good post as usual (nt) -:- Mon, Mar 26, 2001 at 22:13:29 (GMT)

__ Pat Conlon -:- Thanks Chuck, yes we do enjoy life and are happy -:- Mon, Mar 26, 2001 at 21:34:21 (GMT)

__ __ Dermot -:- 'no pompous little,,,' hahahahhah nt -:- Mon, Mar 26, 2001 at 22:15:59 (GMT)

__ __ __ scottc. -:- 'no pompous little,,,' hahahahhah nt -:- Mon, Mar 26, 2001 at 23:26:25 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ Katie H. -:- Great post, Scottc - admire your honesty -:- Tues, Mar 27, 2001 at 13:31:31 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ janet -:- i learned kubler-ross's stages differently -:- Tues, Mar 27, 2001 at 10:53:09 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ scottc. -:- i learned kubler-ross's stages differently -:- Tues, Mar 27, 2001 at 15:26:55 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ Pat Conlon -:- Scott, Chuck and I have talked about you a lot -:- Mon, Mar 26, 2001 at 23:39:17 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ JHB -:- Scott, welcome back to the struggle -:- Mon, Mar 26, 2001 at 23:33:45 (GMT)

Sandy -:- Bill Moyers exposes corrupt chemical industry (OT) -:- Mon, Mar 26, 2001 at 19:44:52 (GMT)

__ G -:- I saw him interviewed this morning (OT) -:- Tues, Mar 27, 2001 at 02:03:26 (GMT)

__ cq -:- love of money=root of evil?-you told Maharaji?(nt) -:- Mon, Mar 26, 2001 at 19:47:58 (GMT)

__ __ Sandy -:- Let's all get up and dance to a song that was a -:- Mon, Mar 26, 2001 at 20:07:20 (GMT)

__ __ __ cq -:- I'm doing fine ... -:- Mon, Mar 26, 2001 at 20:36:58 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ Sandy -:- You seem kind of on the attack from the getgo... -:- Mon, Mar 26, 2001 at 21:44:46 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ Pat Conlon -:- It's a western christian idea not amoral Hinduism -:- Mon, Mar 26, 2001 at 21:53:17 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ Sandy -:- Beware of Maya = Love of Money, or so I thought -:- Mon, Mar 26, 2001 at 22:24:57 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Pat Conlon -:- think truth, honesty, love, respect Sandy -:- Mon, Mar 26, 2001 at 22:41:24 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Sandy -:- A rationalization that tries to 'gotcha' me -:- Mon, Mar 26, 2001 at 23:00:27 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Pat Conlon -:- Nature, not God, is amoral and indifferent -:- Mon, Mar 26, 2001 at 23:48:20 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Pat Conlon -:- I don't have the answer, Sandy, but I'll guess -:- Mon, Mar 26, 2001 at 23:33:50 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Moldy Warp -:- A rationalization that tries to 'gotcha' me -:- Mon, Mar 26, 2001 at 23:08:45 (GMT)

__ __ __ Joy -:- Thanks for Bringing This Up, Sandy -:- Mon, Mar 26, 2001 at 20:14:00 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ Sandy -:- Hits us where we breathe.... -:- Mon, Mar 26, 2001 at 20:25:39 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ Joy -:- Hits us where we breathe.... (and more) -:- Tues, Mar 27, 2001 at 03:05:15 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ Sandy -:- Joy -:- Tues, Mar 27, 2001 at 13:16:40 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Jim -:- Here's a question for you, Sandy -:- Tues, Mar 27, 2001 at 16:58:54 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Sandy -:- Here's a question for you, Sandy -:- Tues, Mar 27, 2001 at 17:53:09 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Jerry -:- Here's a question for you, Sandy -:- Wed, Mar 28, 2001 at 12:04:39 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Joy -:- Sandy -:- Tues, Mar 27, 2001 at 16:40:35 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ Pat Conlon -:- Fence-sitters' Forum- brilliant, Joy -:- Tues, Mar 27, 2001 at 03:42:55 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Jim -:- That's very funny, Joy -- Imagine the aliases -:- Tues, Mar 27, 2001 at 06:39:20 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Joy -:- No Really, You Guys, I think it's a good idea -:- Tues, Mar 27, 2001 at 07:20:25 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Pat Conlon -:- Nothing ever Happens instead of Anything Goes? -:- Tues, Mar 27, 2001 at 08:52:06 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Sandy -:- Aliases and kid stuff from the playground -:- Tues, Mar 27, 2001 at 13:30:39 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Jim -:- 'What goes around comes around'? Is that a curse? -:- Tues, Mar 27, 2001 at 16:20:19 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Sandy -:- 'What goes around comes around'? Is that a curse? -:- Tues, Mar 27, 2001 at 17:58:20 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Pat Conlon -:- Sandy, many hands make light work -:- Tues, Mar 27, 2001 at 19:44:17 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Sandy -:- No problem -:- Tues, Mar 27, 2001 at 22:07:48 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Katie H. -:- Sandy, you HAVE changed -:- Tues, Mar 27, 2001 at 13:35:08 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ Pat Conlon -:- I was in pahrmacy for 30 years and they are part -:- Mon, Mar 26, 2001 at 20:31:54 (GMT)

Francesca -:- Comments from Donner -- sub forums -:- Mon, Mar 26, 2001 at 19:24:40 (GMT)

__ Gary Epton -:- Comments from Donner -- sub forums -:- Tues, Mar 27, 2001 at 05:05:34 (GMT)

__ Selene -:- it works there because it's a techie forum -:- Mon, Mar 26, 2001 at 20:20:10 (GMT)

__ __ Richard -:- Here's another forum organized by topic -:- Mon, Mar 26, 2001 at 20:48:04 (GMT)

__ __ __ Selene -:- well granted people do bond with their cars but -:- Mon, Mar 26, 2001 at 20:58:05 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ Richard -:- Forum organization is not limited to cars or tech -:- Mon, Mar 26, 2001 at 23:05:43 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ Selene -:- agreed Richard. I'd volunteer -:- Mon, Mar 26, 2001 at 23:17:41 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ Richard -:- No problem Selene -:- Mon, Mar 26, 2001 at 23:39:06 (GMT)

__ __ __ Francesca -:- see my post below in troll thread n/t -:- Mon, Mar 26, 2001 at 20:49:53 (GMT)

__ __ Francesca -:- it works there because it's a techie forum -:- Mon, Mar 26, 2001 at 20:45:57 (GMT)

__ __ __ Cynthia -:- it works there because it's a techie forum -:- Tues, Mar 27, 2001 at 01:51:35 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ Francesca -:- I've always thought that if trolls were ignored .. -:- Tues, Mar 27, 2001 at 05:02:49 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ Selene -:- not rediculous at all -:- Tues, Mar 27, 2001 at 02:08:53 (GMT)

Cynthia -:- Wasting Time On Trolls.......FA??? -:- Mon, Mar 26, 2001 at 18:42:27 (GMT)

__ Richard -:- Wasting Time On Trolls - simple solution -:- Mon, Mar 26, 2001 at 20:33:43 (GMT)

__ __ Francesca -:- See my comments above -:- Mon, Mar 26, 2001 at 20:48:19 (GMT)

__ Forum Admin -:- I'm working on it -:- Mon, Mar 26, 2001 at 19:58:56 (GMT)

__ __ Selene -:- haha I was going to joke about that to Cynthia -:- Mon, Mar 26, 2001 at 20:04:18 (GMT)

__ __ cq -:- 'Deleted the worst excesses...' so how do future -:- Mon, Mar 26, 2001 at 20:04:06 (GMT)

__ __ __ Forum Admin -:- An attempt at an answer -:- Mon, Mar 26, 2001 at 20:20:44 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ cq -:- Give me 24 hours to think about this, please? -:- Mon, Mar 26, 2001 at 20:41:31 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ Bazza -:- To me its quite simple Chris -:- Tues, Mar 27, 2001 at 04:39:43 (GMT)

__ __ __ Selene -:- because cq, it will never ever end -:- Mon, Mar 26, 2001 at 20:05:25 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ cq -:- not the 'Brer Rabbit' tar baby fable? -:- Mon, Mar 26, 2001 at 20:39:54 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ Selene -:- you know -:- Mon, Mar 26, 2001 at 20:48:45 (GMT)

__ Chuck Sprague -:- I agree, Cynthia... -:- Mon, Mar 26, 2001 at 19:26:13 (GMT)

__ __ Forum Admin -:- Chuck, I've just counted the posts... -:- Mon, Mar 26, 2001 at 20:08:43 (GMT)

__ __ __ moldy warp -:- FA Can't make up my mind about this -:- Mon, Mar 26, 2001 at 23:18:53 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ Forum Admin -:- Simple - stick to the issues.... -:- Mon, Mar 26, 2001 at 23:28:41 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ moldy warp -:- FA yeh but maybe for the exes who go OT to argue -:- Mon, Mar 26, 2001 at 23:46:43 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ Forum Admin -:- That's OK ..... -:- Mon, Mar 26, 2001 at 23:56:45 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ moldy warp -:- FA I don't blame anyone when forum fills up with -:- Tues, Mar 27, 2001 at 00:02:54 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Forum Admin -:- The FAs don't have friends ..... -:- Tues, Mar 27, 2001 at 00:09:07 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ moldy warp -:- The FAs don't have friends ..... -:- Tues, Mar 27, 2001 at 00:39:51 (GMT)

__ __ __ Pat Conlon -:- FA, delete the lot - but then again they provide -:- Mon, Mar 26, 2001 at 20:28:58 (GMT)

__ Pat Conlon -:- Wasting Time On Trolls.......FA??? -:- Mon, Mar 26, 2001 at 19:03:43 (GMT)

__ __ Dermot -:- I'm just ignoring 'cerise' until -:- Mon, Mar 26, 2001 at 21:29:51 (GMT)

__ __ Cynthia -:- Thanks, Pat -:- Mon, Mar 26, 2001 at 19:21:38 (GMT)

__ __ __ cq -:- you never go to AG unless this site is down ??? -:- Mon, Mar 26, 2001 at 19:46:04 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ Cynthia -:- you never go to AG unless this site is down ??? -:- Tues, Mar 27, 2001 at 01:13:57 (GMT)

JHB -:- A gem from Donner you may have missed -:- Mon, Mar 26, 2001 at 17:59:07 (GMT)

__ Brian Smith -:- So this is what and why? -:- Mon, Mar 26, 2001 at 21:37:37 (GMT)

__ __ donner -:- So this is what and why? -:- Tues, Mar 27, 2001 at 00:23:45 (GMT)

__ __ __ Brian Smith -:- I guess m thought he could make a silk purse out -:- Tues, Mar 27, 2001 at 01:13:25 (GMT)

__ __ Jethro -:- Brian, I think the Malcomb you mention -:- Tues, Mar 27, 2001 at 00:23:18 (GMT)

__ __ __ Brian Smith -:- No clue, a really nice guy apparently set up by M -:- Tues, Mar 27, 2001 at 01:24:39 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ Jethro -:- Brian,can you tell me what happened to him?NT -:- Tues, Mar 27, 2001 at 01:48:11 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ Brian Smith -:- I have no idea, maybe donner knows -:- Tues, Mar 27, 2001 at 04:46:20 (GMT)

__ __ Pat Conlon -:- Also explains Whittaker, Smith and Belkis NT -:- Mon, Mar 26, 2001 at 22:00:37 (GMT)

__ __ __ Brian smith -:- good examples of other failed experiments (nt) -:- Tues, Mar 27, 2001 at 01:29:07 (GMT)

__ Francesca -:- Oh my God -:- Mon, Mar 26, 2001 at 18:58:24 (GMT)

__ __ Pat Conlon -:- Oh my God- what a sick cult of Santaism -:- Mon, Mar 26, 2001 at 19:07:32 (GMT)

Bazza -:- Is this sad or what? OT -:- Mon, Mar 26, 2001 at 17:54:37 (GMT)

__ cq -:- sad that you think launderettes are sad, Baz -:- Mon, Mar 26, 2001 at 19:53:05 (GMT)

__ __ Bazza -:- sad that you think launderettes are sad, Baz -:- Tues, Mar 27, 2001 at 06:02:02 (GMT)

__ __ __ cq -:- I think one of us farted (nt) -:- Tues, Mar 27, 2001 at 20:26:21 (GMT)

__ JHB -:- It's sad..... -:- Mon, Mar 26, 2001 at 18:00:35 (GMT)

__ __ Jerry -:- It's sad..... -:- Mon, Mar 26, 2001 at 19:04:38 (GMT)

__ __ __ Sir Dave -:- Jerry, an important sad question -:- Mon, Mar 26, 2001 at 23:04:10 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ Jerry -:- Jerry, an important sad question -:- Tues, Mar 27, 2001 at 11:59:36 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ Jerry -:- Hey, Dave! -:- Tues, Mar 27, 2001 at 22:19:34 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ Sir Dave -:- Hey, Dave! -:- Wed, Mar 28, 2001 at 01:43:14 (GMT)

__ __ __ Pat Conlon -:- It's absolutely fabulous, darling and I wish I had -:- Mon, Mar 26, 2001 at 19:10:41 (GMT)

Date: Mon, Mar 26, 2001 at 22:44:20 (GMT) From: Forum Admin Email: None To: Everyone Subject: To Cerise and Interested Parties Message:

Cerise, As you are not an ex-premie, you are a guest here, but you have treated this forum as an open chat room. I must tell you it is not. It is here to help people understand Maharaji, knowledge, and related subjects, and help those who are renouncing their allegience to Maharaji. You have also posted some extremely tasteless posts. I am giving you the benefit of the doubt, and putting this down to your immaturity. Those posts have been removed. In the interest of balance, others have made unfounded accusations against you. Some of those have also been removed, but you should understand that you have blundered in here, and your behaviour has upset people. If you wish to post here, please make an honest attempt to discuss the subject matter of this forum. Although others are questioning your identity, my role as Forum Admin does not allow me to make such judgements without sound evidence. If evidence that you are not who you say you are emerges, or if you continue to abuse the aims of this forum, you will be banned from posting here. To other intersted parties, Please try to stick to the subject matter of this forum if you wish to debate with Cerise. Thank you Forum Admin

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Date: Tues, Mar 27, 2001 at 04:38:25 (GMT) From: cerise Email: None To: Forum Admin Subject: this isn't a chat room? Message:

well that's funny, I've seen dozens of threads that are full of cliquey, syrupy backpatting chit chat that have absolutely nothing to do with M or K. Reading those creates a feeling of being an outsider to a converstation between housewives in a laundromat - killing time that's all, wasting time in fact. FA: I acknowledge the request you have made and have already apologised for something I said to a friendly person late one night in private (that's a silly mistake for one). I wasn't aware that my posts were being scanned by people looking to destroy me. Odd that my recent post about Abi's awful encounters hasn't come to light, or perhaps not, it would kill the vitriol somewhat unfortunately for some. FOR THE RECORD - AB, I was appalled by your story and would have screamed blue shit if that happened to me. Don't worry, good lawyers can ferret out pedeophiles decades after it hasppens. FA: Thanks for removing the slanderous comments made to me and please watch for these people, they will strike again with no reason and please remember I come to this forum without a headfull of bitterness and resentment. Questions mainly and comments relating to them. Please think about a forum site for aspirants and children of long time pwk so that we can bring some clarifty to the debate instead of accusation and spite. The reason we engage this site is that we don't get to speak to anyone on the EV site, all we get is links to other 'information' so it's nice to actually talk to other people and hear their interesting perspectives. I also suggest that this forum be made a closed set password only entry, that way everyone will have to prove who they are before getting access. I'd love to see the identity of some of my hate mail senders who cower underneath their crappy anonimous monikers. PS, I'm not a troll, and though some people here may lack a few iq points I hope that YOU have read my early longer posts and are well aware that I'm here to learn and share. - Trolling is for bored teenagers who want to cause trouble and get attention. I get enough believe me. Oh, that reminds me - Dermot, your humiliation may have only just begun. Soon I take my driving test and hopefully after that I'll have a licence that carries my name photo and address. I already asked what format to send a scan in (but the old women just laughed at me). I'll find a way and if you're luckiy enough to see my licence then I suggest you have a large flannel ready for the extremely large amount of gouey yellow and slimy mess that will be pouring down your face onto your nice white T shirt. FA: Please allow for Australians, we are a fighting race and if we get kicked we give it right back, it's just our nature. We are held in contempt by many English and American people but when they meet us they go 'Oh, you're so different that we expected!' yea, your dead right we are! cheerio, and I'll try to behave myself. #(:) C

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Date: Tues, Mar 27, 2001 at 07:09:20 (GMT) From: Abi Email: None To: cerise Subject: GO AWAY Message:

just in case the message wasn't clear

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Date: Tues, Mar 27, 2001 at 07:07:03 (GMT) From: Abi Email: None To: cerise Subject: this isn't a chat room? Message:

Everything you say seems vapid and contrived. Appealing to national stereotypes about the 'Aussi battler' is just as pathetic as excusing yourself on the grounds that you're 'young'. You disgust me. GO AWAY

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Date: Tues, Mar 27, 2001 at 12:41:07 (GMT) From: sean Email: None To: Abi Subject: vapid and contrived Message:

'Vapid and contrived', exactly. From the start her posts have been dishonest, self-congratulatory blather. Adolescent silliness with some venality thrown in. She whines about being attacked and then goes on about being a tough Aussie. Cerise is a fraud. Whether or not Cerise is 40 or 15 is irrelevant to the fact that 'she' is a fraud. Just playing games. Hate to see someone just deleted from the forum, but if Cerise has no real interest in anything intelligent and is just a troll, maybe that is the best solution.

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Date: Tues, Mar 27, 2001 at 14:27:20 (GMT) From: Abi Email: None To: sean Subject: vapid and contrived Message:

Sean Best to stonewall. I regret engaging. As Richard said DO NOT RESPOND Abi

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Date: Tues, Mar 27, 2001 at 05:04:34 (GMT) From: Bazza Email: None To: cerise Subject: Boy do you sound different Message:

Cerise, you aged 10 years overnight!! What happened to the sloppy grammar, lack of capitals and punctuation, the stunted ICQ hipop talk? You sound almost....mature! BTW, did you figure out your age yet??LOL!!

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Date: Tues, Mar 27, 2001 at 13:49:26 (GMT) From: cerise Email: None To: Bazza Subject: oh....so sorry MR Consistent Message:

sometimes I put in more effort than others yea and sometimes I wear a skivvy and shorts, other times an evening dress sometimes I swear like a bikie other times I sound like a choirgirl sometimes I walk sometimes I run sometimes I write like a uni graduate, other times I scrawl like a 7 year old sometimes I watch serious documentaries other times trashy games shows sometimes I cook an A la carte meal, other times it's beans on toast getting the picture mr consistency? BTW - I'm 57, live in a dirty unit, smoke half an ounce of Drum tobacco a day, slosh a quart of whiskey, have bad breath, ten strands of hair, yellow fingers and you are my only contact with an intellligent lifeform scram Abi >>> this wasn't sent to you

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Date: Tues, Mar 27, 2001 at 21:03:54 (GMT) From: Bazza Email: None To: cerise Subject: True colours showing now Message:

Whatever your age, you're a fucking lying worthless piece of shit, so fuck off.

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Date: Wed, Mar 28, 2001 at 00:30:52 (GMT) From: Nigel Email: None To: Bazza Subject: Final cerise-related thought... Message:

Neat forensic work Bazza, re. cerise's inconsistencies. But isn't the most glaring one this: would a thirsty aspirant, desperate for that experience, reveal that she was living in Sydney, female and 22 years old, daughter of premies etc? As if 22-yr-old, Sydney resident, female aspirant daughters of premies were two a penny and that confessing to being one such didn't give her ID away to the cult in general and affect her chances of getting the Special K... Oh, fuck off, please. And fuck off 'cerise' forever. You're transparent.

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Date: Wed, Mar 28, 2001 at 00:39:45 (GMT) From: Dermot Email: None To: Nigel Subject: Nigel Message:

You'll probably get a really unconvincing reply from 'cerise' which he (the drunken middle-aged ex-pat hahah) thinks convinces you once and for all that he's a 22yo cutey ... what a sad bastard ....on ICQ he's probably an 18yo from Auckland New Zealand with moonie parents .....and on IRC a 17yo tasmanian abused by her father.

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Date: Tues, Mar 27, 2001 at 21:22:49 (GMT) From: Pat Conlon Email: None To: Bazza Subject: True colours showing now - hear, hear! Message:

Cunning, conniving, calculating probably done by a committee of divine clones and Rev Moonbeam's Borgs. BLOCK CERISE!

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Date: Tues, Mar 27, 2001 at 15:06:54 (GMT) From: Cynthia Email: None To: EVERYONE Subject: PULEESE, STOP ENGAGING CERISE!!!! Message:

Sorry for shouting, I just wanted to catch your attention.... Talk ABOUT her, fine, if you engage her, we'll be wasting our time. He/she/it won't go away if we engage her. This troll is so stupid it doesn't even know how to keep one persona per alias LOLOLOL!! IMO, Cynthia P.S. Abi, I understand why you couldn't resist the temptation. This wasn't directed at you, sister.

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Date: Tues, Mar 27, 2001 at 14:05:48 (GMT) From: JHB Email: None To: cerise Subject: My question from below Message:

Cerise, We were talking about the possibility of you receiving knowledge the Maharaji way. I put the following scenario to you:- Now, imagine you actually do it. You patiently wait, you tell yourself that you won't be fooled, you're not going to be bound in some group where everyone feels that they're special. And then you receive the techniques, and have a cosmic experience. What then? Everything you've read here about Maharaji not being necessary will go out of the window, and all the things you've been told by M and premies will become true for you. And tears of gratitude will flow, and you will be bound to your master, and will not listen to any more bad stories about him. Do you want that? Then there would be no doubt about you being in a cult. Remember, whatever you experience has nothing to do with Maharaji, but in that situation you will be so vulnerable, and you will believe that it has everything to do with him. So if you are interested in serious debate, is this what you want? John.

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Date: Tues, Mar 27, 2001 at 14:40:11 (GMT) From: cerise Email: None To: JHB Subject: and my attempt at an answer... Message:

yea thanks John. I'm more confused than ever about now, went to a video tonight hoping to get blissed out and was bored by it. It wasn't 'New' like they said, just a rehash so I was sulky and confrontative about that and left in rather a cloud (hard in a small community). about the tears of gratitude etc, i can't see that happening cos it doesn't feel emotional for me, more like a buzz, a high that i DIDN'T get tonight! I've seen people go into that teary stuff and I don't get it. then I came here and saw Abi's cold hard post and just freaked, what a heart shrivelled woman she must be not to have the decency to take my sincere apology at face value, in fact what a total....no, I musn't, but by heck some people here are are just plain scary awful, I've never seen anything like it. Others are warm and helpful and they give confidence and hope. You guys have some stuff going here and I hope it grows into a good place for all sorts of people. I would like to debate but it won't work if what i say is ignored and I've said so many times - the group thing in this community is really tame and the people I've seen come and go and get K and return are the same regular people they were before, if it isn't like that where you live, I'll accept that but you'll have to accept how it is for me too. If we were still in Sydney I might well agree with you though! that's partly why M+D left. I'm trying to leave here now to get with some crazy chicks and some new people on icq. I'm kind of hoping there'l be no more posts to answer right now. but thanks for your interest in helping - you ARE making a difference, no matter what I do in the future, that's cool and it means something to me. thanks J :)C

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Date: Tues, Mar 27, 2001 at 20:20:23 (GMT) From: JHB Email: brauns@apollo.lv To: cerise Subject: and my attempt at an answer... Message:

Cerise, It's obvious you're not welcome here any more, so it would be difficult continuing this discussion on this forum. If you would like to continue by email, my address is above. John.

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Date: Wed, Mar 28, 2001 at 05:32:28 (GMT) From: cerise Email: None To: JHB Subject: cerise has left the building Message:

well, I'm just passing through the lobby right now actually... thanks JBH for your post, I've noted your address. Personal e-mail has become the thing for me over the last 24hrs, i've gotten dozens of lovely mails from people all over the world. it seems the FA here is the only one with a clear, balanced view of the big picture - that there are hundreds of people out there watching this ForumV and they don't all see things the way those people do that are huddling around their latest victim of the evil, twisted unholy morally bent corrupt cult devil worshippers all pretending to be someone else!! The insane negative energy is very clear to see from a little distance so I definitely know which way I'm leaning now. i haven't got time to do much except answer emails right now . I'll flip you something when I get through. thanks for your time and patience John and your refreshing lack of overzealous uncon'troll'ed emotion! :) C

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Date: Tues, Mar 27, 2001 at 07:34:39 (GMT) From: Dermot Email: None To: Bazza Subject: between 40 -50 with a girls fake D.license -:))nt Message:

z

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Date: Tues, Mar 27, 2001 at 13:52:51 (GMT) From: cerise Email: None To: Dermot Subject: Patience smartboy, and keep the flannel warm... Message:

V

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Date: Tues, Mar 27, 2001 at 00:49:32 (GMT) From: Francesca Email: None To: Forum Admin Subject: Exactly -- we need to stop being such a bunch of Message:

candy-ass liberals. If you allow anyone to do anything they want here under the banner of freedom of speech, pretty soon no one with any sense or time will want to post here. I understand being soft-hearted and all that, but enough is enough. For example, I remember when I lived in the ashram and one of my friends in the ashram worked for a lawyer. She told him how money didn't mean anything to her, what was important to her in life, etc. He totally violated her openness and proceed to do something funny with her taxes and her paycheck. She had been consistently underpaid for a period of time. I remember how shocked we were when we both found out. She also was intelligent enough to see how she had laid herself open, although it didn't excuse his actions. I think Brian, the FAs and the people who are doing all the work here, and possibly some people who want to be part of a support group for Brian and the FAs should make these decisions, not we random posters, although they can certainly listen to our opinions. The rest of us here are merely providing a lot of hot air (including myself, of course). ;-)

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Date: Tues, Mar 27, 2001 at 00:51:29 (GMT) From: Dermot Email: None To: Francesca Subject: BS Francesca.......dont demean yourself Message:

zz

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Date: Tues, Mar 27, 2001 at 00:17:21 (GMT) From: Dermot Email: None To: Forum Admin Subject: Totally out of order FA Message:

FA I know having power may give you a thrill but please , if you will, read the following word by word , line by line and then tell me why you have censored whole threads of posts. (from the homepage): 'AFTER YEARS OF PASSIVELY LISTENING TO MAHARAJI YOU CAN NOW SPEAK YOUR MIND' (from forum intro): 'THE FORUM IS AN UNMODERATED COLLECTION OF ONGOING THREADED DISCUSSIONS WHERE EX-PREMIES, CURRENT PREMIES, AND NON PREMIES EXPRESS THEIR VIEWS ON ANYTHING AND EVERYTHING RELATED TO FOLLOWING MAHARAJI AND PRACTISING KNOWLEDGE' (ALSO):'IF YOU ARE A CURRENT PREMIE,BE AWARE THAT MOST OF THE PEOPLE WHO POST ON THE FORUM ARE EX-PREMIES AND THAT SOME EX'es WILL BE EXPRESSING NEGATIVE FEELINGS TOWARDS MAHARAJI AND HIS ORGANIZATION.IF YOU POST PRO-MAHARAJI MESSAGES YOU MAY BE MET WITH ANGER OR RIDICULE . BE PREPARED FOR THIS BUT DONT LET IT PUT YOU OFF FROM EXPRESSING YOUR OWN VIEWS AND FEELINGS HERE' clear as daylight isnt it? So what gives you the right to delete a whole thread of posts?? When I questioned cerises Id and motives I never once called for her to be blocked, banned , deleted .....I was expressing my own opinions on her reasons for being her. It was my decision to speak to her or ignore her. yOU SAY 'AS YOU ARE NOT AN EX-PREMIE YOU ARE A GUEST HERE ' really?? I thoght it was for exes, premies and non premies......or do I reading glasses??????? As for stick to subject if i wish to debate with her .....who are YOU to tell me what I should and should not debate about for chrissakes. (actually I KNOW who you are ...dont think I dont...I'm not stupid matey) I know you are emblazoned by Donners recent calls for a good 'christian' clean-up .He's a nice guy but he's not god almighty. As far as I'm concerned a PAM no longer is in a positon of great authority or exaggerated influence. I like the guy.....I learn from the guys experience and kowledge. PERIOD. IM AGAINST ARBITARY CENSORSHIP ON THIS FORUM BECAUSE I VALUE THIS FORUM GREATLY. DERMOT

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Date: Tues, Mar 27, 2001 at 00:38:00 (GMT) From: Forum Admin Email: None To: Dermot Subject: Totally out of order FA Message:

Dermot, No thread was deleted from the active index. Only a part of a thread where Cerise was particularly unpleasant concerning Jagdeo's child abuse. Threads in inactive are deleted as a matter of course in preparation for the inactive index to be archived. A judgement is made about what should be archived. When I found this forum I trawled the archives for information about Maharaji. I know the debate about Cerise would not have been helpful to me if it had been in the archives. You correctly quote the introduction:- THE FORUM IS AN UNMODERATED COLLECTION OF ONGOING THREADED DISCUSSIONS WHERE EX-PREMIES, CURRENT PREMIES, AND NON PREMIES EXPRESS THEIR VIEWS ON ANYTHING AND EVERYTHING RELATED TO FOLLOWING MAHARAJI AND PRACTISING KNOWLEDGE' You are correct is pointing out the word 'unmoderated'. This is incorrect, and I shall ask the Webmaster to correct this. Although we try to maintain freedom of speech, there are limits. Even the current (soon to be revised) forum guidelines include limits to free speech. However, if people express 'their views on anything related to following Maharaji and practicing knowledge', and do not transgress the other guidelines, then no censorship will be necessary. Regarding whether Cerise is a guest, well, the name of the site is ex-premie.org. Anyone who is not an ex-premie is by definition a guest (although still welcome). Forum Admin

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Date: Tues, Mar 27, 2001 at 00:49:34 (GMT) From: Dermot Email: None To: Forum Admin Subject: Totally unbelievable...I give up Message:

So you wouldnt have found the debate about cerise 'helpful'. I may have done. Many others may have done. It clearly revealed the dishonesty inherent in being a premie and the honesty of being an ex. and did so in a very interesting manner. the site is ex-premie.org agreed...... but part of the site is the forum and as I've already pointed out ......its for exes, prems,and nons......now have a word with the webmaster....get that changed too and you win the argument again!! I posted my disgust about the post to ABI ....agreed it was horrible. Censor it ? why? Again it shows the depths prems will go to to defend the guru. This christian/judaeo moralism is stifling the forum !!!!

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Date: Tues, Mar 27, 2001 at 00:34:38 (GMT) From: moldy warp Email: None To: Dermot Subject: Dermot check out my conversation with FA a few Message:

threads down. I agree with you mostly. But FA gets pressure from both sides.. those who want the awkward timewaster duplicitous type of premie poster blocked and those who want a free-for-all. I spent 5 mins looking for my retort to cerise and or cw to see if he/she/they replied before I realised it had been deleted. It is carthartic for me to engage with these people/person sometimes. I deliberately didn't swear even though I felt like it. I just told cerise/cw to go and have their boring conversation elsewhere. I also wonder if premie posters are arguing with themselves really ... people don't always say everything they mean. Perhaps it's their way of exiting(although they don't know it yet). Or maybe I'm just being naive?? But who could say? Maybe we should all have a vote.(But then who is 'we' on an open forum??) Though I am aware that for FA it is time consuming to deal with this stuff.

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Date: Tues, Mar 27, 2001 at 00:39:00 (GMT) From: Dermot Email: None To: moldy warp Subject: Dermot check out my conversation with FA a few Message:

It's an OPEN forum....I hope it is at least. The PAMS are taking over hahaha soon we'll have smartcards.....and talk pychobabble. SSorry PAMS no ffence meant just getting my outrage out of my system......much better than keeping it in. SEE? I'm learning all about therapy too -:))

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Date: Tues, Mar 27, 2001 at 03:12:38 (GMT) From: Brian Email: brian@ex-premie.org To: Dermot Subject: Look at it this way, coach Message:

As much as you or anyone else here values the forum, there is NOBODY who places a higher value on it then the ones who ensure that it was here when you first found it and that it will be here tomorrow for someone else to find. Maybe you're not always happy with the goal that they slap a puck into, but they're off their butts and doing the job. And they win far more games than they lose :)

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Date: Tues, Mar 27, 2001 at 03:39:43 (GMT) From: Dermot Email: None To: Brian Subject: True.... Message:

I've had my rant.....and I can well see the work and dedication that goes into it as I sit on my butt and pontificate. hmm while I'm around though I'll still pipe up for non-censored (well ok minutely censored ....if it does HAVE to be done) posting. But hey everyone ...I DO appreciate the behind the scenes work. Cheers Dermot

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Date: Tues, Mar 27, 2001 at 07:04:16 (GMT) From: salam Email: None To: Dermot Subject: I agree with Dermont Message:

Cerise, is something that intersts everyone. It also gives an insite of how young people behave around k. Ofcourse I appriciate the effort behind the sences, but.....you know what I mean.

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Date: Tues, Mar 27, 2001 at 14:13:03 (GMT) From: cerise Email: None To: salam Subject: and I agree with Salam! Message:

thanks Sales. i know you weren't actually supporting me personally but I'm so desperate for some kind of respect or at least Acknowledgement that i'll take it as valid. I'm afraid sometimes i don't behave very well around K, went to a video tonight and got bored shitless. i confronted the 'information' lady about why i'd heard this stuff before when it was advertised as 'New Introduction Video'. She said they kept the same intro (that American woman talking over shots of humanity at large) but changed the talk after it, funny I was sure I'd heard the 'talk' before as well. I gave her rather a strange look and then left feeling even stranger because I know them and they know me. don't think I've done my personal PR much good today either here or with them. you know what? i really WISH I had something LIKE K so I could just crawl into it and dissappear, daren't smoke a J cos i'll probably totally freak. what do you do to chillout? and please don't say get thouroughly pissed! because I get sick too soon for that. I know, I'll hit icq, we got a new 'member' today another guy, yikes! seeya #(:

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Date: Wed, Mar 28, 2001 at 03:37:54 (GMT) From: salam Email: None To: cerise Subject: you're up the creek without a paddle Message:

don't know what to say. K or not K, that is the question. In the end will never make a difference. You are life and life is you. Haraji is a poofta and a con artist. He has no interest wahtso ever in anyone or anybody unless he/she contributes to his goal, which I must say is ambigious. So, if you get a hot potato, that is something you have to deal with. Is your second name Val. Found my icq num.:113 137 182, I don't use it much.

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Date: Tues, Mar 27, 2001 at 00:43:33 (GMT) From: moldy warp Email: None To: Dermot Subject: Goodonya Dermot Keep catharting nt Message:

X

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Date: Tues, Mar 27, 2001 at 00:21:03 (GMT) From: DERMOT Email: None To: Dermot Subject: ps Message:

not just ''following maharaji and practising knowledge' it actually also ends with 'AND LIFE AFTERWARDS' which even broadens topic matter ad infinitum

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Date: Tues, Mar 27, 2001 at 01:32:47 (GMT) From: Cynthia Email: None To: Everyone Subject: I don't advocate censorship.... Message:

When I started the thread about cerise, I was merely suggesting that folks kind of stop paying attention to he/she/it. The reason I did that was because of the very demeaning statement cerise made about/to Abi. I wasn't suggesting censorship, I don't think, I'll have to go back and read it. I was asking the opinion of the FA, but not ACTION. Where can the line be drawn? With us. cerise was seductive and I almost got caught by her. I didn't even read the first of her very long threads. I read a remark she made about ignoring my posts. Then I started to calculate her age, and it just didn't jive. Blaa blaa blaa...But, the thread she referred to was an indignant one of mine about Jagdeo. She tried to push my buttons, but I had cerise pegged very quickly. After all, she's a pretty bad act, IMO. I thought I was merely pointing out the fruitlessness of giving attention to her or anyone who we now know is a troll. They can't talk to themselves. And if they do, and/or start a lot of threads, then it will become apparent to us and the FAs that this person may need to be blocked. I don't see the point in discussing this First Amendment issue again. cerise is a troll. IGNORE HER. PULEESE! IGNORE HER. Cynthia

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Date: Tues, Mar 27, 2001 at 02:52:42 (GMT) From: Chuck Sprague Email: bctanda@hotmail.com To: Cynthia Subject: Good advice Cynthia.... Message:

Hi Cynthia. I agree that ultimatily, ignoring trolls is the best policy. I think it was Katie H. who first posted the Troll Alert website address. They seem to say the same thing. Francesca has advocated that for a long time, too. I don't like censorship either, but neither would I like to see forum V degenrate into ''anything goes''. And finding the happy balance is a big problem for the F.A., as not everyone will be pleased with whatever they decide. Ultimately, this is a privately owned website. Since we aren't paying any kind of fee or tax to use it, we can only make suggestions on how it run. In the end, the owners get to do as they please. I'm glad they aren't completely indiffernt to our concerns. This forum may not be perfect, but I have to say I have yet to see anything better regarding openly discussing M. and K., and I am glad it is here. I like the idea of dividing the forum up into sections, but I don't feel I can push for that, because who is going to do all the work? And when I complain to the FA when I think good stuff is scrolling off, I realize too that since I'm not volunteering to do the work they do, my complaints only mean so much. I'm sure it's not easy running this forum, and it takes a lot of time. It's pretty easy to start a forum via a service like Hotboards.com, but how many of us have the time to manage it, paid or unpaid? All things considered, I think your suggestion to ignore the trolls really is the best thing most of us can do. I guess we just need to keep reminding each other, and new people, of that when a lot of trolling starts. It seems to be an ongoing thing. On another topic, how is your computer doing? You said you were having problems, but they were improving? If it's an older machine, I have found they work best with software that isn't much older than the machine itself. Difficult to do when there is constant pressure to upgrade everything. I have a computer help page that has some links to websites that I have found very helpful for troubleshooting problems. You may find some help there if your computer keeps acting up. - Chuck, who would like to be a geek but doesn't have the time.

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Date: Tues, Mar 27, 2001 at 14:56:58 (GMT) From: Cynthia Email: None To: Chuck Sprague Subject: Good advice Cynthia....(re: my computer) (OT) Message:

Hi Chuck, I bookmarked both sites. My computer is pretty old, but still has a lot of steam left in it. I reloaded w98, which fixed a lot of missing and corrupted files (if I start messing with system files, I dig a deep hole for myself). Then I called my ISP and I discovered they had done a lot of upgrading and my connection was not configured correctly. I think (I hope) my problems are resolved...so far, so good. Thanks for the link. Is that your voice? Love, Cynthia

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Date: Tues, Mar 27, 2001 at 19:53:21 (GMT) From: Chuck Sprague Email: bctanda@hotmail.com To: Cynthia Subject: The voice isn't mine, it's Marvin the Martian... Message:

... from the Buggs Bunny cartoons. One of my computers is an old 486, with only 16 megs of RAM. I have win98 version 1 installed on it, can't use any version newer than that without having problems, but it is fine if I stick to what it can handle. The windows magazine website has a lot of useful tips for tweaking windows to make it do what you want. Hope the links are useful. - Chuck

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Date: Tues, Mar 27, 2001 at 02:59:21 (GMT) From: Dermot Email: None To: Chuck Sprague Subject: blabbermouth Dermot is genuinely humbled (nt) Message:

x

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Date: Tues, Mar 27, 2001 at 12:35:41 (GMT) From: Marianne Email: None To: Dermot Subject: It's ok, Dermot Message:

We all blab too much here once in a while. I go back and forth on the censorship/free speech thing myself alot, although when premies and trolls become assholes, and especially when they hassle Abi and Susan, I tend to want to boot the jerks. How are you doing? Marianne

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Date: Tues, Mar 27, 2001 at 22:24:12 (GMT) From: Dermot Email: None To: Marianne Subject: Hi Marianne Message:

Thanks for your post.....yeah I'll have to learn to really think things through before I post. The censorship issue is a really difficult one isn't it? So many angles to view it from but almost impossible to get a whole view of it. Every partial view has its pros and cons. Very frustrating. ....and if I've helped to allow that shit 'cerise' to stay and good ole Abi to go ....then that is so depressing.Bad news. I'm ok thanks...a bit busy so may not be on the forum much for a while. How are you getting on ? Still in Eire? Best regards to ya Dermot

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Date: Tues, Mar 27, 2001 at 22:33:57 (GMT) From: Selene Email: None To: Dermot Subject: Dermot please don't beat yourself up Message:

That's MY department and I got here first so nya nya. Sorry, I know this was to Marianne. You were the FIRST one, as far as I could see to even bring up the fact that something was amiss. Someone else may have and I missed it, I was trying to read sideways with a filter on when those posts came about. And because you had the courage to do what you did that bitch will I hope be outta here soon. She/it has already managed to make me very upset and not at all for the reasons she-it probably thinks. The censoship issue is so complex indeed. I for one will not ever again be mad when someone who goes this far gets blocked and the sooner the better IMO.

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Date: Tues, Mar 27, 2001 at 22:56:18 (GMT) From: Katie H Email: None To: Selene Subject: Dermot please don't beat yourself up - I agree Message:

No, Selene, that's MY department (snicker!) I agree with Selene that it's a complex issue. And it's difficult to know what to do, or what might be right - one sort of has to deal with it situation by situation (like the poor FA), and we don't always make the right decisions. I, too, appreciated you're 'I'm going to get flak for this' post - thanks very much. Take care, Katie

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Date: Tues, Mar 27, 2001 at 22:59:22 (GMT) From: Selene Email: None To: Katie H Subject: well ok we can share it 60/40 Message:

You can have the 60 since YOU were here first. I'm more of a drama queen though that's for sure. Cringe.

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Date: Tues, Mar 27, 2001 at 23:36:46 (GMT) From: Dermot Email: None To: Selene...Katie H Subject: Hey u 2 masochists..... Message:

can I join ya-:)) anyway thanks for your posts....jeeze wouldn't be a real drag to be a politician or something like that ....having to deal with issues left and centre......one difficult issue at a time is enough for me. ....anyway as long as Abi returns to post again things won't be so bad. Cheers Dermot

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Date: Wed, Mar 28, 2001 at 01:17:06 (GMT) From: Katie H Email: None To: Dermot Subject: Hey Dermot Message:

(as we say here in the Southern US) Yes, I feel bad for the FA's too :). IMHO, Abi knows how to take care of herself, and that's a blessing. Take care, Katie

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Date: Tues, Mar 27, 2001 at 23:04:04 (GMT) From: Katie H. Email: None To: Selene Subject: well ok we can share it 60/40 Message:

Well, you know us Swedes - we suffer in silence (but make sure everyone knows it - snicker) whereas the Irish tend to emote. I do feel bad about Dermot and the FA - I think it's really hard to try to do the right thing all the time. Love you, Katie

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Date: Tues, Mar 27, 2001 at 13:52:24 (GMT) From: Katie H. Email: None To: Marianne Subject: Agree with Marianne Message:

I am torn between allowing premies (or whatever) to speak freely here, and protecting the people who are already here against gratuitous abuse, or anything that will make them unwilling to use the forum.

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Date: Tues, Mar 27, 2001 at 14:48:42 (GMT) From: Cynthia Email: None To: Katie H. Subject: Absolutely, Katie and Marianne Message:

I completely agree with you both. Especially re: the dreadful post made about Abi. That's verbal abuse, beyond flaming. To delete something like that IMO is like deleting a personal threat or graphic porn. When such abusive statements about or to any victims of Jagdeo occur, I personally will (and possibly can we as a cohesive group???) consider those an attack against me, EPO, and the exes on F5. That Jagdeo issue ain't going away. I just am not, like, you know, forgetting about it. So...we can always expect trolls. Love, Cynthia

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Date: Tues, Mar 27, 2001 at 14:59:01 (GMT) From: Katie H. Email: None To: Cynthia Subject: Absolutely, Cynthia Message:

Sometimes I don't think some of the people here understand how offensive those posts are. This is not a criticism of anyone, by the way - obviously, there are plenty of things *I* don't understand about other people. I think there should be zero tolerance for posts intended to trivialize OR manipulate victims of sexual abuse. (And isn't trolling just manipulation?) Perhaps not answering them is a good idea, but YES, I think the FA should be asked to delete them. I feel like I'm leaving myself open for trolling by saying this, but so be it. Take care, Love, Katie

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Date: Tues, Mar 27, 2001 at 15:17:54 (GMT) From: Katie H. Email: None To: all Subject: P.S. Another issue Message:

Re victims of sexual abuse, I'm not just talking about Abi and Susan - that term encompasses many people on here (and possible many readers as well). In fact, I hate it when Abi and Susan get labelled as 'the ones who got abused' or treated as victims, by anyone on here. Neither of them ACTS like a victim, and I believe they shouldn't be treated as such (even compassionately) just because they were brave enough to tell their stories. I feel weird just writing this - like it's an invasion of privacy - but I do need to say it.

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Date: Tues, Mar 27, 2001 at 15:56:51 (GMT) From: Cynthia Email: None To: Katie H. Subject: P.S. Another issue Message:

I am not beyond being triggered by the issue of sexual abuse. I have to say that nothing surprises me anymore, though. It's true, I feel as if I've seen/and/or heard it all. Plus, percentages prove it. That is, the percentage of women and men who have been abused as children is quite high. I, too, feel sensitive about posting this, because in the past I have been too graphic on the subject, and I have triggered folks. Enough said... Love, Cynthia

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Date: Mon, Mar 26, 2001 at 21:17:07 (GMT) From: Chuck Sprague Email: bctanda@hotmail.com To: Joe and Everyone Subject: The things visiting premies don't see about us... Message:

(Joe, this is in response to your ''The broken dam syndrom'' post below, in the thread ''Why do premies bother to post here?''. I'm posting my reply up here, in case the thread below gets Troll-Scrolled into the inactive index today.) Hi Joe: Great post! The more I read here, the more I have to respect the experience you and Jim have regarding premies who post here. You have been seeing this for years, so your observations carry a lot of weight with me. Thank you both. Much of what you said fits in with what Jim said in his post: ''As for the ex's, you try, as best you can, to find some unifying negative characteristic, some shared flaw or blind spot, by which you can discount us, explain us all away. You pick fights and then use our various ways of defending ourselves as proof of our inherently weak nature. You find excuses to square off against us for, as you know, the more we're alike [the more we are like YOURSELVES], the more trouble you're in. Thus an obviously nice guy like Patrick C. becomes a deeply bitter, negativity-soaked lost soul. Joe's a tight-ass. We're ALL whiners.'' I wonder if that is how they perceive us generally? We got ourselves into a cult of our own making, then rebelled against it, unlike themselves, who were never in a cult, but prospering with their happy, sucessful lifestyle? I had used most of the rationalizaions and excuses Erika had mentioned in her posts. They work for awhile, by themselves, but when put together with the larger picture, they just don't hold up under scrutiny. Most of us here do say negative things about M. and our experience with him. But that is our experience, so when we talk about him, that is what we say. It hardly sums up our entire lives, or our current happiness. If premies judge us only by what we say here about M., they could get the impression that we are terrible unhappy. But the topic here IS M., and if that is something we are critical of, then so be it. We have lots of other things going on in our lives, but those are OT (Off Topic) here. We email each other of the boards about other stuff. We've met in person with you and Kevin twice since posting here, and there is plenty of other things to talk about than bitching about M. I'm having loads of fun in my life, and I think a lot of people here are, too. There is all the negative stuff, but there is wit and humor too. A lot of intelligent, interesting people post here. It's better than most things on TV! And as we share our stories, we connect the dots, the pieces come together, and we start to see a larger picture of what we were involved with, and how and why. That hardly makes us losers, or a bunch of sad sacks to be pittied. I just hope that Erika and Scottc and other premies realize that just because we don't get our jollies from M. anymore, doesn't mean that we don't get our jollies AT ALL anymore, or that dissing M. and baby-throwing is all we ever talk about, or that we aren't capable of being happy anymore. That would be absurd. When Erika first posted as Sezyou, I thought she sounded haughty. When I tried to look at it more charitably, I thought perhaps she was just trying to tell us, ''look at my life, it works so well, how could I possibly be in a CULT?'' Well, my life wasn't a living hell while still in the cult. I was enjoying a good life, too. Much of it worked just fine. People can ''enjoy their lives'' while being decieved and taken advantage of. I was ''Enjoying my life'' as a premie, but there were things that always bothered me, and over the past serveral years, those things became more pronounced. With new information, both from EPO, and my distastful experience last year in trying to work with the Participation Committee, I was able to re-evaluate everything to do with M., see what was working for me, and what wasn't. I concluded I didn't need a Master, so I chucked him. I am enjoying life, and meditation now, even more than before, without having an ''imaginary friend'' to try and relate to somehow, and to send checks to. I am experiencing such a sense of RELIEF now. It's like getting rid of a parasite that was sucking my energy and resources. I haven't stopped enjoying life; I'm now enjoying it more than ever! I'm not trying to convert anyone into becoming an ex-premie. And like you Joe, I tend to think like you do about Erika and Scott. You said: ''I think Scott is in the 'fighting back' phase. But both Scott and Erika are smart people, who function well in the world, and so they have a problem in that they can kind of tell when they are sounding ridiculous, unlike some of the other premies who come here. And I also take both of them at their words that they are trying to sort all this out.'' I've occasionally had doubts, but I'm certianly willing to leave ''room for doubt in my mind'' that that may well be what they are trying to do. But when Scottc makes comments like the one he made to Cynthia in a post below: ''And you're right, I do have a chip on my shoulder. Take a look around this site. Lots of kindling'' I have to wonder what he's really trying to do here? Is he just ''fighting back''? I mean, KINDLING? Is that what we are? LOL! Kindling for who? Who is trying to start a fire? What for, out of who, and why?

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Date: Tues, Mar 27, 2001 at 03:16:15 (GMT) From: such Email: None To: Chuck Sprague Subject: kindling?I thought party was a weenie roast!LOL(nt Message:

nt

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Date: Tues, Mar 27, 2001 at 02:58:46 (GMT) From: Pat Conlon Email: None To: Chuck Sprague Subject: Also why do we hang here and keep posting? Message:

I share a huge chunk of my history with the people here and I can talk to them the way I used to talk to my closest premie friends (half of whom are now exes) in the old days BUT it is NOT the way I can talk to most synchronized PWKs nowadays. Here we can share reminiscences, speculate, argue about whether to throw the baby (Rev Moonbean Rawat) out with the bath water (K or dhyana yoga) or not. We can laugh and joke and be irreverent the way god in all her egalitarian wisdom meant us to be. I enjoy the baby throwing contests. My absolute favorite currently is to try to imagine the scene of vehicular manslaughter and how brave, fearless, decent, responsible and honest Rev Moonbeam behaved afterwards. I enjoy reading the arguments for and against keeping the bathwater, splashing in it or soaking in it or throwing the tepid and dirty stuff out and taking a shower with clean warm water.

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Date: Tues, Mar 27, 2001 at 07:42:50 (GMT) From: Brian Smith Email: None To: Pat Conlon Subject: This is the only place I can go for the medicine Message:

I need to heal the wounds of betrayal, anger, fear, frustration, faith foiled and dreams spoiled to name a few reasons that come to mind. The medicine I need is truth and laughter, no one else anywhere else is willing to tell the truth about M and laugh at him and about him in the way that it is done here. laughter the best medicine, truth the great healer, keep it coming and I'll keep coming back

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Date: Tues, Mar 27, 2001 at 23:59:22 (GMT) From: moldy warp Email: None To: Brian Smith Subject: Agree muchly Brian love Moldy nt Message:

X

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Date: Mon, Mar 26, 2001 at 22:13:29 (GMT) From: Dermot Email: None To: Chuck Sprague Subject: Well said Chuck...good post as usual (nt) Message:

zz

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Date: Mon, Mar 26, 2001 at 21:34:21 (GMT) From: Pat Conlon Email: None To: Chuck Sprague Subject: Thanks Chuck, yes we do enjoy life and are happy Message:

I have you and Andy and five dogs and a crazy cat and a quarter-million dollar dilapidated beach cottage (not kidding - it's SF) and a successful business and lots of wonderful friends and making many more through FV and a clean conscience with no more cult lies, deceit, secrecy, revisionism and paranoia cloggin up our arteries. And best of all no pompous little Hindu Santa telling me to breathe.

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Date: Mon, Mar 26, 2001 at 22:15:59 (GMT) From: Dermot Email: None To: Pat Conlon Subject: 'no pompous little,,,' hahahahhah nt Message:

z

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Date: Mon, Mar 26, 2001 at 23:26:25 (GMT) From: scottc. Email: None To: Dermot Subject: 'no pompous little,,,' hahahahhah nt Message:

Chuck: I don't question the quality of your life. I have some very close friends who are ex's and clearly are happy, healthy and content. i also have many friends w/o K. and they too are like-wise satisfied w/ their life. Do I use inuendo or suggestive ploys to get them to 'see the light ' and aspire to K. Absolutely not. I used to play those tricks and i made myself ill.Also, I don't necessarily consider a chip on ones shoulder to be reason for regret. Many of us have them and yes they do start fores from time to time. the recent posts re: waverers, lurkers, visitors and trolls has prompted me to ask myself some questions about where I fall. At various times I know I've fallen into every category and have morphed from one to the next in a single post. I'm sure many of you are familiar w/ Kubler-Ross' SARAH acronym as it relates to death and dying. When we, or loved ones are nearing death we tend to go through the spectrum of emotions that span those of Shock,Anger,Rejection, Acceptance and eventually Help (SARAH) These feelings don't have a time schedule, they may linger or surge forth and back again, ripping apart the fabric of ones relationships, both with oneself and others. There is no statute of limitations on how long it should or will take. I still mourn my fathers death after 20 years.He was at times an abusive irish -catholic cultist who believed in the spare the rod spoil the child belief system. It was difficult letting go of his influence and impact on my life...I still haven't. Don't assume that my ordeal w/ coming to terms w/ M. is resolved or even close to it. My flail is in process.Mao gave orders during the great march to ' carry the wounded and shoot the stragglers.' the question that struck me when I first heard that was' I wonder if the wounded shot themselves so they'd get carried/ Maybe the stragglers would be your strongest soldiers if you found out why they were straggling...' IOW, Be discerning when making the distinction between Tolls, Lurkers, visitors, etc. the degree of anguish felt is in direct relationship to the depth of dependency nurtured, so be careful and cognizant when ripping muscle and tendon away from bone...it may take awhile.

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Date: Tues, Mar 27, 2001 at 13:31:31 (GMT) From: Katie H. Email: None To: scottc. Subject: Great post, Scottc - admire your honesty Message:

And you are correct about the grief process (although I learned it the way Janet did.) Take care, Katie H. (or should that be katieh:)?)

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Date: Tues, Mar 27, 2001 at 10:53:09 (GMT) From: janet Email: None To: scottc. Subject: i learned kubler-ross's stages differently Message:

i was taught that the stages go Denial Anger Bargaining Depression Acceptance/ John Bradshaw added a 6th, that i have tested and found must occur in order to get to the other side== betwen depression and acceptance comes grieving. the acknowledgement that 'it hurts. it really is that bad' and these stages apply to the loss of anything significant or a change that cannot be undone.

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Date: Tues, Mar 27, 2001 at 15:26:55 (GMT) From: scottc. Email: None To: janet Subject: i learned kubler-ross's stages differently Message:

Janet: thanks for the correction. i think the SARAH thing is some cute bastardization of DABDA....who would ever name their kid DABDA. Acronyms R Us probably gets a kickback.S.

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Date: Mon, Mar 26, 2001 at 23:39:17 (GMT) From: Pat Conlon Email: None To: scottc. Subject: Scott, Chuck and I have talked about you a lot Message:

and we agree that you are sincere and definitely worth talking to. Gotta take the five mongrels to the park to play now but I do want to talk with you heart to heart, man to man. And I know that Chuck does too but neither of us want to try to convince you about anything. Eleven of our closest friends are premies and we agree to disagree and love them anyway and they love us. PS Also there are quite a few really lost soul PWKs. PPS Say hi to Cynthia

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Date: Mon, Mar 26, 2001 at 23:33:45 (GMT) From: JHB Email: None To: scottc. Subject: Scott, welcome back to the struggle Message:

Scott, I assume you've done the appropriate research here? I mean reading the other pages on this site. If not, I recommend the Nuts and Bolts, Indian Background, and the Journeys. After a serious read of these, it's hard to imagine any real conflict. Pain, sadness, regret, and anger, yes... but conflict? No. John.

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Date: Mon, Mar 26, 2001 at 19:44:52 (GMT) From: Sandy Email: None To: Everyone Subject: Bill Moyers exposes corrupt chemical industry (OT) Message:

Tonight on PBS at 9 pm eastern time U.S. there will be a TV show with Bill Moyers exposing how corrupt the chemical industry is and how there are over 75,000 unapproved and untested chemicals loose in the environment now, and how some very powerful folks don't want the public to know this. At www.ourstolenfuture.org there are accounts of how Moyers is being maligned and attacked for doing this show. It's showing on KQED (I think) in San Francisco at midnight. Check your local listings. You want to track down some truly evil shit, check this out. The love of money does appear to be the root of all evil. Sandy

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Date: Tues, Mar 27, 2001 at 02:03:26 (GMT) From: G Email: None To: Sandy Subject: I saw him interviewed this morning (OT) Message:

The expose tonight will show how the chemical industry KNEW they were harming people but covered it up. There are many, I believe he said thousands, of internal memos proving this. The first 90 minutes will be the expose, the last 30 minutes is to allow the chemical industry to respond. So far, all they have done is attack Moyers. Way to go Bill!

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Date: Mon, Mar 26, 2001 at 19:47:58 (GMT) From: cq Email: None To: Sandy Subject: love of money=root of evil?-you told Maharaji?(nt) Message:

well, HAVE you told maharji yet?

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Date: Mon, Mar 26, 2001 at 20:07:20 (GMT) From: Sandy Email: None To: cq Subject: Let's all get up and dance to a song that was a Message:

hit beofre your guru was born... Though he was born oh not that long ago The guru should know, the guru should know... (kudos to the Beatles) No, I have not told Maharaji the almost 2,000 year old adage about the love of money being the root of all evil that is attributed to Paul. I figured Maharaji should already know the essence of that statement most intimately. Don't ya think? And I really do see a way that somebody can have alot of stuff including money and still be righteous with it. Seems you all have brought up some points that bring into question whether Maharaji has done so or not. This is the big time. If I have to remind my spiritual guide that the overriding love of money (and the material plane in general) is the root of all evil, then we both have problems, don't we? How you doin'? Sandy

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Date: Mon, Mar 26, 2001 at 20:36:58 (GMT) From: cq Email: None To: Sandy Subject: I'm doing fine ... Message:

and both your, mine and the Maha's mother were born a long, long time before the Roman citizen Paul was credited with the saying that 'love of money is the root of all evil'. However, that doesn't change a thing, as regards the Maha's relationship to money, and the people from whom it's come for him (other than it's the stock market he now values as being more precious than 'his' premies). Why should the Maha know 'the essence' of the saying 'love of money is the root of all evil'? He's had no experience of its opposite for a long, long time, has he, Sandy? (and it's for you to decide whether I'm referring to money or evil here). And why do you think that means we 'both' have problems? Please indicate precisely what you mean to say ... ... or fade away, sincerely or not, as the case may be ...

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Date: Mon, Mar 26, 2001 at 21:44:46 (GMT) From: Sandy Email: None To: cq Subject: You seem kind of on the attack from the getgo... Message:

Why should the Maha know 'the essence' of the saying 'love of money is the root of all evil'? -cq In my opinion, anyone who claims to be a teacher of the inner way should know this. It's a basic truth that crosses all lines of culture and time, so whether one is from the east or west, it should be self-evident, intuitively obvious to the most casual observer, so to speak. And this is not to say that one cannot have money and still be holy, or that one must be an aesthetic to be spiritual, no. -Sandy And why do you think that means we 'both' have problems? -cq I was reffering to him and me, not you. Read it again...Sandy

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Date: Mon, Mar 26, 2001 at 21:53:17 (GMT) From: Pat Conlon Email: None To: Sandy Subject: It's a western christian idea not amoral Hinduism Message:

Just as love your neighbor is the basis for civilization. Rawat does not subscribe to western Judeo-christian values of love, kindness, forgiveness, honesty and modesty. He is a Hindu with Hindu ''flexible morals.'' Like - there is no right or wrong, good or evil. You've heard him say that. He is an immoral opportunist.

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Date: Mon, Mar 26, 2001 at 22:24:57 (GMT) From: Sandy Email: None To: Pat Conlon Subject: Beware of Maya = Love of Money, or so I thought Message:

Pat, I always thought that the worship of the material plane in any way shape or form (epitomized by money) was considered a no-no in all the major schools of thought regarding self-realization. Although your comment does recall to me a little story about some Asian businessmen who were at a meeting with some western businessmen. The Asians (Japanese I think) were praising the art of deception as a way of winning a business negotiation. The western businessmen were aghast and insulted at such a thing, to which the Asians replied something like 'When Joe Montana (famous former quarterback of the San Francisco 49ers) fakes to the left and throws to the right and makes a touchdown pass that wins a championship game and thus brings millions if not billions of dollars into the San Francisco area, has he not negotiated a very successful business deal by deception? What is the difference between him and us?' I know, I know....we are talking about much more here. Sandy

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Date: Mon, Mar 26, 2001 at 22:41:24 (GMT) From: Pat Conlon Email: None To: Sandy Subject: think truth, honesty, love, respect Sandy Message:

You are an idealist like me and we came to M and K because we thought it was about love and truth. He thinks it's about fun and games - lila, anything goes and fuck the simpletons like us. He is evil and hateful and we were duped because we were lovers of peace and wanted brotherhood and saintliness. He is Krishna the trickster fucking the ten thousand gopis without vaseline.

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Date: Mon, Mar 26, 2001 at 23:00:27 (GMT) From: Sandy Email: None To: Pat Conlon Subject: A rationalization that tries to 'gotcha' me Message:

Pat, One of the ways my head would take it when he would make what we call 'mistakes' was 'hey, God allows hurricanes slam into grass hut islands and kill babies in their sleep. But I still beleive in God, so maybe a Master can be just as appearingly amoral to us. This is a point I have been getting snagged on repeatedly, where it makes me pause. What gets me is that I know people who love him and have had nothing but positive experiences with him, and I now know people who have had very bad experiences with him. Neither group of people seem to respect or recognize the validity of the other's right to exist. Why am I not surrounded by other people who have been where I have been and see what it is that is before us and ask 'Why is it like this?' And get some straight answers and not a zen story in response. Sandy the one hand clapping

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Date: Mon, Mar 26, 2001 at 23:48:20 (GMT) From: Pat Conlon Email: None To: Sandy Subject: Nature, not God, is amoral and indifferent Message:

God manifests as love in human beings and human beings express that love for each other through common decency, kindness and forgiveness. Western teachers, like Christ, preached that. Hinduism accepts that god and nature are cruel and indifferent and many of their teachers have been immoral and do not teach love thy neighbor.

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Date: Mon, Mar 26, 2001 at 23:33:50 (GMT) From: Pat Conlon Email: None To: Sandy Subject: I don't have the answer, Sandy, but I'll guess Message:

In the days when I felt like a miserable, squashed, pessimistic victim, I was treated as such. When I turned my thoughts around and began to live affirmatively, positively and optimistically, warm, loving, kind people came into my life. Perhaps nice premies saw M as a nice guy. I know that I saw whatever I wanted to see in him until I saw that he was not only just an ordinary human being but a very ordinary religious businessman with no morals. Beauty is in the eyes of the beholder; darshan in the hearts of devotees. As he said a week ago in Portland: ''Only those who have affection for me can see that I am the Master.'' I don't hate him but I am no longer too fond of him and therefore he is no longer my Master. Krishnaism of which Maharajism is a cult is not known for teaching love of neighbor and kindness but love of guru and fuck your neighbor. Not my kind of religion.

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Date: Mon, Mar 26, 2001 at 23:08:45 (GMT) From: Moldy Warp Email: None To: Sandy Subject: A rationalization that tries to 'gotcha' me Message:

Sandy said 'What gets me is that I know people who love him and have had nothing but positive experiences with him' Moldy replies Are you sure??? I know they say that and I would have evaluated my experiences with M as 'nothing but positive' once and attribute any negative experiences to the unsurrendered state of my 'mind'. However... are there any premies that are in a positive happy loving space all the time ??... answer NO ...so when they are miserable, how do they evaluate that ... they just haven't figured out the damage that is being done to their spirits YET. love Moldy

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Date: Mon, Mar 26, 2001 at 20:14:00 (GMT) From: Joy Email: None To: Sandy Subject: Thanks for Bringing This Up, Sandy Message:

As a person who's been chemically injured, I'm avidly looking forward to this documentary tonight. I wonder if M will watch it and feel any guilt for the thousands of people he exposed to dangerous and toxic chemicals while they were working on that plane at DECA? I had one friend from IHQ who was wiped out for years from her working in the cockpit of that plane unprotected by proper masks etc. She has finally recovered her health, but for many years she had to live with her parents and eat an extremely limited diet and take massive supplements to try and heal herself. Thank God she eventually did, apparently the other woman who worked with her has already died of cancer. Also, I didn't know there was an ourstolenfuture.org. That's a wonderful book by Theo Colborn, which I recommend to anyone interested in the effects toxic chemicals are having in our environment and bodies. It's very well researched and is shocking in its implications.

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Date: Mon, Mar 26, 2001 at 20:25:39 (GMT) From: Sandy Email: None To: Joy Subject: Hits us where we breathe.... Message:

That expression has the impact it does because of the simple truth it bears. It doesn't go 'hits us where we digest' or 'hits us where our hearts beat' or 'hits us where we process bile and enzymes'....no. The phrase with the impact is 'hits us where we breathe' for a very simple and basic reason. I too have been damaged by 'progress' and 'modern problems', where I breathe to be exact. Every year in the fall I get a very bad case of asthmatic bronchitis, have to use numerous inhalers and take it easy. Believe me when I say that I have to literally work very hard and go very slow at times, just to be able to walk and breathe at the same time. I know on a very gut level that I have been damaged and poisoned by our high-tech industrial society. Tonight I hope to hear some details about how that may have happened. I mean, if the government made deals with the tobacco companies to spike butts with deadly and addictive nicotine just to keep customers coming back for more, and keep the tax revenues rolling in, what won't they do? Hope you are finding ways to cope and heal. What in particular is your ailment? Sandy

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Date: Tues, Mar 27, 2001 at 03:05:15 (GMT) From: Joy Email: joy52@earthlink.net To: Sandy Subject: Hits us where we breathe.... (and more) Message:

Hi Sandy. Sorry to hear about your yearly bout with asthma. Fortunately I do not have breathing symptoms, they're more in the neurological and nervous system side, i.e. I become spaced out, have cognitive difficulties, confused, upset, shaky, jittery etc., when exposed to petrochemicals, pesticides, deodorizers, etc. It started out from just one consistent daily exposure (laser printer toner) and then spread to many other substances which cause the effect. (This is known as kindling, or the spreading phenomenon, and the overall condition is Multiple Chemical Sensitivity.) We've talked about this a bit on the Forum here. Sir Dave also has it, and Katie Darling (Disculta), as well. I am SO glad I did not acquire this in service to M, as then I really WOULD be angry! But I'm sure about 6 or 7 years dealing with the photographic chemicals when I typeset his publications didn't help, and may have set me up for the illness later on. Thanks for your interest, though. Have you read Our Stolen Future? That is an awesome book. Now, a little more on topic: Above, you said, 'Why am I not surrounded by other people who have been where I have been and see what it is that is before us and ask 'Why is it like this?' And get some straight answers and not a zen story in response.' This is, after all, the ex-premie Forum, which is why we mostly tend to see the subject of M in a certain light. Maybe you should start a 'Fencesitters Forum' where these issues can be discussed amongst premies with major questions without censorship or judgement? It's too bad EV's forums don't allow for this. What conclusion does that lead you to? Anyhow, I'm perfectly happy to discuss stuff about M without it becoming a flame war, all-or-nothing type of argument. E-mail if you'd like.

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Date: Tues, Mar 27, 2001 at 13:16:40 (GMT) From: Sandy Email: None To: Joy Subject: Joy Message:

Joy, We both know that EV is not about to have such a site or setting, at least not one where the control is given up to the posters, at least not now, probably not ever. Also, when I asked the question 'why am I not surrounded by...' above, I meant in terms of other premies, not the exes here. You have already asked your questions and gotten your answers. As for the term 'fence sitter', I do not think it is a fair call. I am not the same as I was two years ago, and I daresay that the coming two years will bring more change yet. We here are all somewhere on the spectrum between the most adamant premie and the most adamnat ex-premie, and the term 'fence sitter' smacks of peer pressure, namecalling and weakness. I do not cop to peer pressure or namecalling, and it has taken anything but weakness to come here, reveal my identity, share my personal feelings and experiences, and search for the deeper meaning to life that we all originally sought back in the day... Sandy

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Date: Tues, Mar 27, 2001 at 16:58:54 (GMT) From: Jim Email: None To: Sandy Subject: Here's a question for you, Sandy Message:

What do you make of the many premies who now come here, learn the truth about Maharaji, think about it a bit, then bite the bullet and call a spade a spade (i.e. a fraud a fraud)? Does it irk you that they're somehow able to do what you've been unable to do even though you've spent literally years here 'trying to understand'? Does that embarrass you at all? Make you skittish? Defensive? Proud? Confident? Confused? What?

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Date: Tues, Mar 27, 2001 at 17:53:09 (GMT) From: Sandy Email: None To: Jim Subject: Here's a question for you, Sandy Message:

What do you make of the many premies who now come here, learn the truth about Maharaji, think about it a bit, then bite the bullet and call a spade a spade (i.e. a fraud a fraud)? Does it irk you that they're somehow able to do what you've been unable to do even though you've spent literally years here 'trying to understand'? Does that embarrass you at all? Make you skittish? Defensive? Proud? Confident? Confused? What? -Jim It does not embarrass or irk me. It makes me feel that I am somewhere along a continuum that includes everyone who is now or ever was a premie. I do not need to justify or defend where I am at. And I too can enjoy myself along the way, even if there are unresolved matters. In this physical life, there will always be unresolved matters. That does not require us to be unresolved people. So have a nice day. Sandy

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Date: Wed, Mar 28, 2001 at 12:04:39 (GMT) From: Jerry Email: None To: Sandy Subject: Here's a question for you, Sandy Message:

I saw that show, Sandy, and I saw the industry experts resonse to it. You know something? Their response to the obvious evidence that the chemical industry did nothing to protect their workers is not unlike a premie's denial about M's obvious fraudulence and hypocrisy in light of his actions as exposed right here on this forum.

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Date: Tues, Mar 27, 2001 at 16:40:35 (GMT) From: Joy Email: None To: Sandy Subject: Sandy Message:

Sandy, I apologize if I offended you, I didn't mean to. You're as welcome here and have just as much right to be here, as anybody else. Sometimes I can be a bit insensitive, and as I was thinking about what I posted later on, I felt it was probably a bit flippant and offensive. (Too bad you can't delete posts after you've posted them!) So, apologies if I was too harsh, and I DO appreciate your heartfelt posts on occasion, and what you had to say about the Moyers thing etc. Thanks for calling me on the 'brat pack', us/them mentality which it's easy to polarize into. I forget sometimes we're all on our own particular spiritual path and it can be a real challenge to have respect for someone else's viewpoints which are different from your own, but which used to be your own. I think this is one of my main challenges in listening to premies here, learning to have respect for their feelings/experiences, while at the same time trying to understand and say why those same experiences with the same teacher are no longer true for me. Anyhow, I wish you luck on your journey to find what is the truth for you, in whatever form that may take. All the best, Joy P.S. What did you think of the Moyers special? He really pulled off the kid gloves after the first hour, didn't he?

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Date: Tues, Mar 27, 2001 at 03:42:55 (GMT) From: Pat Conlon Email: None To: Joy Subject: Fence-sitters' Forum- brilliant, Joy Message:

Sandy could set up a forum at Hotboards.com for free. It would be over-run in a week.

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Date: Tues, Mar 27, 2001 at 06:39:20 (GMT) From: Jim Email: None To: Pat Conlon Subject: That's very funny, Joy -- Imagine the aliases Message:

Hi, this is 'Beat's me'. Anyone here? Yeah, I'm here. It's me, Confused. Oh hi, Beats Me. I was thinking about something How Should I Know was saying on the forum last week ....

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Date: Tues, Mar 27, 2001 at 07:20:25 (GMT) From: Joy Email: None To: Jim Subject: No Really, You Guys, I think it's a good idea Message:

That way they could hash some of this stuff out for themselves without (a) bothering us, and (b) being attacked and scared back to premiedom by the more enthusiastic members of EPO. Test the waters, as it were, get used to discussing some of these ideas, before entering the rapids over here. Just an idea. What would it be called, though? Any clever names spring to mind? Patrick? Just finished watching the Moyers special, and it was pretty good. We've all got a few hundred toxic chemicals (at least) swimming around in our blood, PCBs, dioxins, pesticides, that's very reassuring. On that healthy thought, I bid you all goodnight.

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Date: Tues, Mar 27, 2001 at 08:52:06 (GMT) From: Pat Conlon Email: None To: Joy Subject: Nothing ever Happens instead of Anything Goes? Message:

After reading Jim's post I cracked up and now I can't take the idea seriously anymore. Perhaps we could have a library of answers to questions (they're nearly always the same) which we could just copy and paste in response to fence-sitters questions.

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Date: Tues, Mar 27, 2001 at 13:30:39 (GMT) From: Sandy Email: None To: Pat Conlon Subject: Aliases and kid stuff from the playground Message:

Pat, As I told Joy, the fencesitter peer pressure name game is antithetical to your purpose and it is insulting to those who you have extended a welcome to on your opening pages. Very tacky. Making fun of others is a very old game usually played by - but not limited to - the very young. This whole little riff smacks of some cruel little playground crap. You all have your laughs. What goes around comes around. Meanwhile, I will continue at my own pace, as we all do, and speed up or slow down based on my own instruments, undisturbed by your contempt for my relative speed. Too bad it has now become a time-sensitive race for so many of you, and whoever takes slower is harassed and demeaned. Kid stuff. So have a good day anyway. Sandy

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Date: Tues, Mar 27, 2001 at 16:20:19 (GMT) From: Jim Email: None To: Sandy Subject: 'What goes around comes around'? Is that a curse? Message:

Or a threat? That's pretty heavy new age shit you're dabbling in there, Sandy. Please, whatever you do, remember there are innocent women and children here. Please, be careful what you wish for. After all, as a wise man once said ...... A Stitch in Time Saves Nine

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Date: Tues, Mar 27, 2001 at 17:58:20 (GMT) From: Sandy Email: None To: Jim Subject: 'What goes around comes around'? Is that a curse? Message:

'What goes around comes around'? Is that a curse? -Jim Depends on what's going around, doesn't it? Silly question from such a smart guy. Your sarcasm is so heavy it's not funny, from a purely objective critical point of view. Sandy

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Date: Tues, Mar 27, 2001 at 19:44:17 (GMT) From: Pat Conlon Email: None To: Sandy Subject: Sandy, many hands make light work Message:

That was not a joke at YOUR expense. It was a laugh at Jim's joke. Don't be too touchy. I am NOT making fun of you or making light of your predicament. I have already told you but am not sure if your read it: I went through what you are going through for 8 years in the 80s. The difference was that I had another sympathetic premie to discuss my doubts with and by the time I got here I had resolved most issues. So please don't take affense at what I said. Sure I joke. I have been the butt of fag jokes since I was a little sissy boy and I am only now starting to get that in proportion and not let them upset me. But a joke from me is always ONLY a joke not a dig or sarcasm. I am sorry that you have not understood me holistically and seen that I empathize with you totally. That does not mean that I will suddenly start getting all serious again. It is my nature to make light of heavy things.

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Date: Tues, Mar 27, 2001 at 22:07:48 (GMT) From: Sandy Email: None To: Pat Conlon Subject: No problem Message:

Pat, No offense taken. My wife and I both had gay brothers. Both passed on in '89. I don't judge you. That's not my job here. Sandy

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Date: Tues, Mar 27, 2001 at 13:35:08 (GMT) From: Katie H. Email: None To: Sandy Subject: Sandy, you HAVE changed Message:

I was reading some of your posts last night, and thinking about some of your posts from when you started posting here. Your attitude is quite different. Most people don't have the courage to post here while they are still undecided - think that that's probably why you don't find others like yourself on this forum. You might want to read scottc's post in the thread above, though, as he addressed something similar. Take care, Katie

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Date: Mon, Mar 26, 2001 at 20:31:54 (GMT) From: Pat Conlon Email: None To: Sandy Subject: I was in pahrmacy for 30 years and they are part Message:

of the chemical/agribusiness industry. There is nothing that they will not stoop to doing. I gave it up because I started to feel like a dirty drug pusher.

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Date: Mon, Mar 26, 2001 at 19:24:40 (GMT) From: Francesca Email: notinherent@yahoo.com To: Everyone Subject: Comments from Donner -- sub forums Message:

Donner said: now, maybe i've got the whole thing wrong and don't understand the place this forum has within the whole of the ex site. maybe the ex-site home page needs to be enhanced to steer those seeking recovery from the cult help to other corners of the site...counselling corner, keeping the best of posting corner up to date etc. Donner's got a valid point here. He suggested that there possibly be separate forums for certain subject areas. That is not a bad idea. The previous forum I was a part of was a discussion group on mini disc recording. (I haven't gone there in months because one forum is enough, thank you.) Now I know this is a programming thing, and some folks will never stay on topic (sometimes myself included) but on the other board there were discussion categories. If you were, for example interested in repair, as opposed to purchasing, MP3 and MD, recording, etc., you could go to THAT forum and post. It's a free board, like this one, and there is a lot of chatter there as well, but I like Donner's idea. I know this involves programing scripts, website interface redesign, and all that sort of stuff, but it might be worth a try. Someplace for serious discussions of deconstruction and exit counseling, could be separate from say, a more chatty atmosphere. The example below even has a link to a chat room, although I personally don't like chat. Example of other board Webmaster and posters, what do you think? I know that you can't prevent people from being off the wall, but I'm wondering if we couldn't agree to make a 'troll' policy and let the FA take down all their posts or filter them out until they behave (I agree, Cynthia!). The best thing (it worked great on the other board when folks would do it) was to ignore the trolls, but in two months, to my dismay, I haven't seen that happening here. By the way, I consider incorrigible premies to be trolls. The problem is, you never know when they're going to turn. But Erika, and Deputy Dog were never trolls in my wildest dreams, and Sandy has gained my respect also. Difficult choices, I know. Love and peace, Francesca

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Date: Tues, Mar 27, 2001 at 05:05:34 (GMT) From: Gary Epton Email: epton@magma.ca To: Francesca Subject: Comments from Donner -- sub forums Message:

I feel that when this forum reaches a certain critical mass (in terms of the number of people posting and the amount of sheer dialogue) it will be necessary to have more specific forums. There will be many new people posting who will not take the time to review the archives and for many of the long-term posters a certain boredom or lack of interest may set in with wading through discussions that have been hashed out many times. Yes, these threads could be ignored and new ones started - but meaningful long-term dialogue would probably ensue from a more focussed approach. As well the sheer jumble of issues/traumas/revelations etc., could present a rather confusing and daunting picture. One future active forum could deal with people that need some tlc in exiting, another for debating, another for dishing the dirt, chatting, etc. It is probably only a matter of time before more people will have to become involved in the technical work of running this site and obviously a lot more discussion will have to take place as to how best divide the forums. This is undoubtedly a start.

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Date: Mon, Mar 26, 2001 at 20:20:10 (GMT) From: Selene Email: None To: Francesca Subject: it works there because it's a techie forum Message:

Easy to make sub categories and stick to them, easy for people to fnd the right sub forum. We do this at work. For one thing, I don't know how many of us feel equipped to be advice givers on an expert counseling level. I speak for myself only. I do agree with Cynthia. But am torn on the censoship issue. Ignore them and they will go away or come around, to me, seems the best route. I should follow my own advice, I know.

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Date: Mon, Mar 26, 2001 at 20:48:04 (GMT) From: Richard Email: None To: Selene Subject: Here's another forum organized by topic Message:

Sorry to waste another post as Ive complained about that. I tagged this onto my post on the next thread down. I support a multiple-area forum but question the ability of this group to maintain it. The current web volunteers are maxed out I'm sure. I belong to a Miata owners' forum (cost for software is one time US$250) where there are dozens of permanent topic areas but it requires many monitors. Any new idea, no matter how helpful, needs to be backed by a willingness to chip in time to make it happen. I don't want to step on anyone's toes on this. I'm sure we this group would readily fund any changes. Another very nice feature on the InfoPop type forum (such as the Miata one) is the ability for the reader can search a topic, thread or entire site by key word.

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Date: Mon, Mar 26, 2001 at 20:58:05 (GMT) From: Selene Email: None To: Richard Subject: well granted people do bond with their cars but Message:

Still it's a safer forum it's more technical and about an inanimate object. (I'm disppointed with my new Toyota btw) I still can't see the model for this place. For people, very emotional people, able to pick and choose categories. I am open and this isn't an intent to diss, but I don't see it.

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Date: Mon, Mar 26, 2001 at 23:05:43 (GMT) From: Richard Email: None To: Selene Subject: Forum organization is not limited to cars or tech Message:

This and Francesca's example of forums are both meant as ways in which areas of interest can be conveniently organized. If this forum wants to meander (and there is probably an equally strong case for that) then so be it. These are simply suggestions of ways in which repeated topics can be kept together to make them easier to access. Even with these more structured categories, there is no reason to squelch the freeflowing nature we enjoy now. Both could happen but any additions will need maintainence = volunteer help.

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Date: Mon, Mar 26, 2001 at 23:17:41 (GMT) From: Selene Email: None To: Richard Subject: agreed Richard. I'd volunteer Message:

And since I have to do computing I am not all that interested in this would be a good motivational thing for me. As I said, I am not meaning to diss. but here is the but, there's always a but: But I once volunteered to help out here with one idea that well, let's just say the idea was not working for me, it's a long story. so I am just trying to suss out what we are aiming at before jumping in. And I do think it works fairly well as is. My example, I am a crappy PERL programmer. When I manage to pilfer and massage code and get help and get the code to work, I let it stay although it is always nagging me that it could be better. I'm open. Didn't mean to offend you I don't think I have but just making sure.

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Date: Mon, Mar 26, 2001 at 23:39:06 (GMT) From: Richard Email: None To: Selene Subject: No problem Selene Message:

Oh no, I'm not offended at all. I just wanted to put forth some options as Francesca did and didn't want the suggestions to be misinterpreted..

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Date: Mon, Mar 26, 2001 at 20:49:53 (GMT) From: Francesca Email: None To: Richard Subject: see my post below in troll thread n/t Message:

n/t

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Date: Mon, Mar 26, 2001 at 20:45:57 (GMT) From: Francesca Email: None To: Selene Subject: it works there because it's a techie forum Message:

I understand the point -- that techie stuff is easier to categorize. But I don't think that people would necessarily be giving advice -- I probably used the wrong terms because I picked up on Donner's and Katie's exit counseling thing. But for example, if there were categories like this with descriptions of what goes on, such as: The Inner Workings of the Cult (description) Deconstructing devotion (description) Still involved (description) Recent exes (description) Off topic discussion (with a description) It wouldn't have to be those exact categories, but you can see what I mean. And even with the other board, the categories didn't always work. That's why I got bored with it, plus the same discussions over and over. Oh well. Shelf life. --f

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Date: Tues, Mar 27, 2001 at 01:51:35 (GMT) From: Cynthia Email: None To: Francesca Subject: it works there because it's a techie forum Message:

I appreciate the suggestions about having different boards for different topics. I just get this icky feeling about things changing around here. You know, it's my icky feeling, so I'll have to think about this. I don't think the Forum is broken, so I don't see any reason to fix it. What the goals of Ex-Premie.Org are in terms of exit counseling need to be discussed very seriously if such a move is to be made. Exit counseling. I cringe at the liability issue(s). Will professionals do it? It's a lot more involved than merely setting up boards. This icky feeling I get is also based upon that icky feeling I have always felt when goomraji changed things around, which, as we all know, was ALL THE TIME! Grrrrr. This transferred into my worklife when I worked for large and small corporations, whose CEO's etc., had nothing to do but reorganize, so they did it all the time. Again, that's my personal issue. The other issue is technical staff, etc. Basically, I think once a troll is recognized as a troll, we can, as adults, learn to resist that temptation to fight, joke, and/or encourage them. Cerise is a real doozy. I had her ticket real fast. I am starting to ramble so I'll stop here. I know it probably sounds ridiculous, but it's nearly my bedtime. So I need to sign off for today. Love, Cynthia

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Date: Tues, Mar 27, 2001 at 05:02:49 (GMT) From: Francesca Email: None To: Cynthia Subject: I've always thought that if trolls were ignored .. Message:

the problems go away. It's a great exercise in resisting commenting, especially when I get baited. Happy dreams! --f

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Date: Tues, Mar 27, 2001 at 02:08:53 (GMT) From: Selene Email: None To: Cynthia Subject: not rediculous at all Message:

I'm open to changing the forum if it needs it and I have this weird philosohy, hope it doesn't sound premie-ish but I think if it needs to grow and change, it will. These stirrings may be a start. I wanted it to be synchronous(as in chat) at one point, but now after seeing some of these trolls in action, I'm thinking that was naiive and based on technology, not on people. btw that is always a good comparison to look at when looking at change to a working interface. I liked all your suggestions. Too bad it's gotten so mixed up but that is part of it all once someone manages to distupt to this extent. If it's not broke don't fix it is GOOD, unless it gets too broke. And it will take a lot more than one not too good at it troll to do that. This one is beta material at best, imo, and had good timing, big surprise. And I am so glad you brought that up about exit counseling. I said it, in a response to Ellen, that it would take qualified professionals with lots of experience. Just my opinion.

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Date: Mon, Mar 26, 2001 at 18:42:27 (GMT) From: Cynthia Email: None To: Everyone Subject: Wasting Time On Trolls.......FA??? Message:

Hello All, I've noticed that some folks are still conversing with someone called ''cerise.'' Hasn't s/he/it already been established to be a troll or at least a pesty adult premie, or what? Lots of other valuable stuff is being discussed on other threads, and I was wondering about this. Are the conversation(s)worth using the space here? What's up on this one? Thanks, Cynthia

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Date: Mon, Mar 26, 2001 at 20:33:43 (GMT) From: Richard Email: None To: Cynthia Subject: Wasting Time On Trolls - simple solution Message:

DO NOT RESPOND TO THEM. DO NOT RESPOND TO THEM. DO NOT RESPOND TO THEM. Responding only strokes their needy egos and wastes the number of posts available. I'm annoyed at myself for even joining this thread but think it's important. Trolls, stirrers, one-shot wonders, drive by premies - whatever you call them they are an easy target but draw fire power away from where it belongs. It may be fun to pull their legs off and watch them thrash about but that's about the extent of it. It serves no other purpose. If someone comes here sincerely, they should be engaged in conversation. If they are not honest jus walk away from them and they'll wander off to some other chat room to get their ya-ya's. I would also support removing chronic forum abusers after fair warning. I support a multiple-area forum but question the ability of this group to maintain it. The current web volunteers are maxed out I'm sure. I belong to a Miata owners' forum (cost for software is one time US$250) where there are dozens of permanent topic areas but it requires many monitors. Any new idea, no matter how helpful, needs to be backed by a willingness to chip in time to make it happen.

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Date: Mon, Mar 26, 2001 at 20:48:19 (GMT) From: Francesca Email: None To: Richard Subject: See my comments above Message:

I acknowledge what you're saying here. More volunteers, more time. The other board I mentioned above did require volunteers for the other topics. In fact, that's how they got the other topics. The Webmaster said fine, if you'll volunteer. So I guess unless you get a flood of e-mails from people with time -- I admit I don't have any -- I'll be very happy and thankful for what you are already doing! --f

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Date: Mon, Mar 26, 2001 at 19:58:56 (GMT) From: Forum Admin Email: None To: Cynthia Subject: I'm working on it Message:

I've already deleted the worst excesses of Cerise, but I'm not convinced about blocking her yet. I'll post again later, but could you please, urm, .... stop 'wasting time on trolls' until then?:-) Forum Admin

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Date: Mon, Mar 26, 2001 at 20:04:18 (GMT) From: Selene Email: None To: Forum Admin Subject: haha I was going to joke about that to Cynthia Message:

But I could tell she is frustrated with all this and I don't blame her. 'The Excesses of Cerise'. Good name for a story. Thanks for staying on this one, FA.

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Date: Mon, Mar 26, 2001 at 20:04:06 (GMT) From: cq Email: None To: Forum Admin Subject: 'Deleted the worst excesses...' so how do future Message:

so how do future readers of this forum make up their own minds? Please, FA, take this plea seriously - if the cost of storage space is not an issue, WHY censor? I, and no doubt many others, would appreciate at least an attempt at an answer, difficult though it might be.

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Date: Mon, Mar 26, 2001 at 20:20:44 (GMT) From: Forum Admin Email: None To: cq Subject: An attempt at an answer Message:

The bit that was deleted was Cerise posting a tasteless cruel comment to Abi, and the uproar that followed. You may not have read them, but many did, added to the thread, and some also requested that Cerise be blocked (that's also censorship). Chris, the reasons for censorship are nothing to do with storage costs, they are to do with allowing this forum to provide information about the cult, and to help those leaving the cult do so. An extreme case would be if the entire active index was filled with total gibberish. Would you like to log in here and see that? Below Donner seems to be advocating much stricter censorship (or maybe self censorship) to keep the forum more focused, and here you are advocating no censorship. Anyway, Chris, you've complained about censorship several times now. Do you have anything constructive to say? Forum Admin

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Date: Mon, Mar 26, 2001 at 20:41:31 (GMT) From: cq Email: None To: Forum Admin Subject: Give me 24 hours to think about this, please? Message:

seriously. Very.

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Date: Tues, Mar 27, 2001 at 04:39:43 (GMT) From: Bazza Email: None To: cq Subject: To me its quite simple Chris Message:

My belief is the forum isn't just some general chat room or ICQ or whatever, the internet is swamped with those. I see it as a place where people like myself can come and read experiences which we relate to and which help us make the difficult transition of dumping something we've been involved in for maybe half our lives. Don't get me wrong, I wouldn't enjoy it if it was all about maharaji and nothing else, you need a little verbal decoration to colour the place, but I think sometimes there is so much miscellaneous crap padding out the threads that it is hard to see what the purpose is, and you have to be something of a veteran to pick your way among the chaff to find the wheat. Imagine how much harder it is for someone entering for the first time, trying to figure out if there is anything worthwhile or relevant for them. Have you ever looked through a list of Yahoo or AOL chat room topics and found something you thought might be interesting, only to find the place full of adolescents yelling 'wasssssupppp!!!!' to each other? Also, if the first post Mr/Ms Newbie landed on was cerise's rape horror story from the press, he/she may not even bother to click on another post at all. Anyway I'm not too good at expressing myself but I think you get the gist. Maybe there needs to be another (!) forum, an ex-premie social club scene, a bit like AG perhaps before it turned into the Cuckoo's Nest.

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Date: Mon, Mar 26, 2001 at 20:05:25 (GMT) From: Selene Email: None To: cq Subject: because cq, it will never ever end Message:

Ever hear the 'Tar Baby' fable?

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Date: Mon, Mar 26, 2001 at 20:39:54 (GMT) From: cq Email: None To: Selene Subject: not the 'Brer Rabbit' tar baby fable? Message:

I'm all ears. (oops was that me, or Brer Rabbit who said that?)

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Date: Mon, Mar 26, 2001 at 20:48:45 (GMT) From: Selene Email: None To: cq Subject: you know Message:

The kid (or was it the rabbit?) sticks a hand on the tar baby, it's stuck so he sticks another hand to get out and that gets stuck so he sticks a foot to try to push out the hands.... So forum wise, You make one response, troll answer, you reply someone else comes in and supports either them or you, troll eats that shit up and devours time and space. OR what I've gotten caught up in, you want to join into the conversations with other ex's ABOUT the problem. I can't seem to stop doing this because I am fascinated by the problem and possible solutions, not about this one person really but about the issue. It's part of what I enjoy at work and what makes my job interesting . I don't know if my interest and posting about it this time is a good thing or not. If Dermot didn't speak up I would have continued to try to ignore this one and I'm very glad he did because it was bugging when I read here. Don't know the answer really.

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Date: Mon, Mar 26, 2001 at 19:26:13 (GMT) From: Chuck Sprague Email: bctanda@hotmail.com To: Cynthia Subject: I agree, Cynthia... Message:

A lot of really good threads have scrolled into inactive in record time. It would seem there are some premies posting here who aren't really discussing anything, just getting us to pay attention to them, by making outrageous statements to get reactions. They also seem to be trying to drive wedges between people who post here regularly. Meanwhile, the important stuff scrolls off. The board has really picked up in activity in recent days, and in response there has been an influx of divine trolls. Do we need to do some pest contol?

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Date: Mon, Mar 26, 2001 at 20:08:43 (GMT) From: Forum Admin Email: None To: Chuck Sprague Subject: Chuck, I've just counted the posts... Message:

...in the thread below that Jim started to Cerise. OK, I've already deleted a big chunk, but the results are still revealing. There are 12 posts by Cerise and premies, and 36 by exes. Good threads are disappearing because of the efforts of exes. Forum Admin still dealing with this.

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Date: Mon, Mar 26, 2001 at 23:18:53 (GMT) From: moldy warp Email: None To: Forum Admin Subject: FA Can't make up my mind about this Message:

I kind of agree that time wasters should not be allowed to hog the forum but... somewhere I posted that these premies are arguing with another dissenting part of themselves really. So should they be given a chance to do it here??? I don't believe that premies are one-pointedly totally into Lard... there's nearly always some little part of them that doubts... are they trying to silence that part by posting here... and if so wot should FV do about it... send them to AG???

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Date: Mon, Mar 26, 2001 at 23:28:41 (GMT) From: Forum Admin Email: None To: moldy warp Subject: Simple - stick to the issues.... Message:

.... and if they won't debate, ignore them. That's not what a lot of the exes have been doing here with the Cerise thing. Forum Admin

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Date: Mon, Mar 26, 2001 at 23:46:43 (GMT) From: moldy warp Email: None To: Forum Admin Subject: FA yeh but maybe for the exes who go OT to argue Message:

(me included) are having a useful carthartic purging-the-last-vestages-of cellular-lurking-premiedom experience themselves???

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Date: Mon, Mar 26, 2001 at 23:56:45 (GMT) From: Forum Admin Email: None To: moldy warp Subject: That's OK ..... Message:

...but don't blame the premies (or people like Cerise) when such purging fills the forum, or when others complain, and the FAs clear the mess up:-) Forum Admin

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Date: Tues, Mar 27, 2001 at 00:02:54 (GMT) From: moldy warp Email: None To: Forum Admin Subject: FA I don't blame anyone when forum fills up with Message:

this stuff. But I appreciate you re in a tough position and have to keep to a middle path (so to speak).And you have a hard job so sorry if I sounded a bit confrontational there FA. Still friends? Moldy W

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Date: Tues, Mar 27, 2001 at 00:09:07 (GMT) From: Forum Admin Email: None To: moldy warp Subject: The FAs don't have friends ..... Message:

.... as it's not possible to enter into personal relationships in this role. We save such human emotions for our secret identities. Forum Admin

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Date: Tues, Mar 27, 2001 at 00:39:51 (GMT) From: moldy warp Email: None To: Forum Admin Subject: The FAs don't have friends ..... Message:

There's no answer to that! Well there is - still accepting my ISP thingy or whatever it's called Mr Spock? Love (although you can't accept it) Captain Kirk

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Date: Mon, Mar 26, 2001 at 20:28:58 (GMT) From: Pat Conlon Email: None To: Forum Admin Subject: FA, delete the lot - but then again they provide Message:

such a good contrast for visiting readers (pc for lurkers) to see just how sick the cult is and how they thrive on fear and lies while the exes go about their simple task of speaking the truth.

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Date: Mon, Mar 26, 2001 at 19:03:43 (GMT) From: Pat Conlon Email: None To: Cynthia Subject: Wasting Time On Trolls.......FA??? Message:

Wasting time on them is exactly want they want: to disrupt the forum and cast a net of cult fear. It is best not to attack evil but to ignore it and concentrate on posting positive stuff. I wish I had taken my own advice and ignored them. But the creepy lies made me angry. I am too new here to know for sure what's going on but I have a hunch that Catweasle and Cerise are in cahoots or are one and the same person. Their posts are always made in the same thread at the same time. Their tones of voice are the same. Mostly Cat is obnoxious but whenever he talks to cerise he begins to sound like cerise - whole paragraphs not the usual nasty one-liners etc. They are EV agent provocateurs and spin doctors. We'll probably never know for sure but I smell cult PR. Same operation also doing baz, Hanuman, Djuro etc. Regular premies would not post hit and run satsang. Regular premies would not even be looking at FV. They are scared of it. These are the EV monitors and may even be Rawat and a few of his creeps and goons and thugs. They are pretending to be anti-cult/EV and pro Rawat and K (just like he does) but they are the real Mc Coy. They are here to disrupt the forum and throw in molotov cocktails of satsang, spin and doubt in waverers minds. These are not amateurs. Regular premies are not like that but I have known enough EV honchos to know that they are immoral and twisted and would stoop to anything. They attack and provoke and try to make exes suspicious of each other and create their special brand of paranoia as they are doing with the Rob thing on AG. Their currency is fear. Slowly I am finding all my old wisdom hidden under layers of cult-think and one piece of wisdom is not to attack evil but to ignore it and put out more good. So I will not be going after them on FV but just post positive stuff. I have just finishing emailing a bunch of my behind the scenes pals who are upset about these EV saboteurs and all I could say to them was ignore them and continue to post fearlessly. If you live in love and truth and goodness then there is nothing to fear. Not even the master of Santaism.

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Date: Mon, Mar 26, 2001 at 21:29:51 (GMT) From: Dermot Email: None To: Pat Conlon Subject: I'm just ignoring 'cerise' until Message:

whoever it is comes clean. I don't mind if they are a premie or a wavering premie as long as they are honest about it. Hal made a short funny post down below saying how the real cult premie was taking over the sweet lil girl -:) it's a weird sort of premie who'd want to cause havoc here ....even when I considered myself a premie I had a friend who'd left the cult and joined the yogahansa group....but I just felt like it was his choice to do whatever he wanted to ....never got my knickers in a twist over it. I even think there are some really good people still premies ...I certainly dont dislike or even worse hate them.....it's just that I have left PPSR forever.....hallelujah ...praise the lord hahaha

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Date: Mon, Mar 26, 2001 at 19:21:38 (GMT) From: Cynthia Email: None To: Pat Conlon Subject: Thanks, Pat Message:

Hi Pat, That was a good post. You did get sucked into that and I felt bad for you. I never go to AG unless this site is down, to find out what might be going on, so I am very unfamiliar with Catweasle, except that I know the person has been harrassing folks here for a LONG time. I can't waste my energy on dealing with characters like that--it saps my energy. Btw, I think I have gotten my computer working properly. I cannot wait until my ISP gets cable modem service up and running here (they're working on it). Sooo, that's all for now...I've got to get into town to do some errands. But, I will be back. Love, Cynthia

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Date: Mon, Mar 26, 2001 at 19:46:04 (GMT) From: cq Email: None To: Cynthia Subject: you never go to AG unless this site is down ??? Message:

well, there's more to AG than being a storm-drain for FV, Cynthia. (I only say that 'cos I posted - last Saturday - a thread that I thought too OT for FV, but nonetheless, its a thread that's worth a look, IMO). (whaddya mean - curiosity killed the cat??)

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Date: Tues, Mar 27, 2001 at 01:13:57 (GMT) From: Cynthia Email: None To: cq Subject: you never go to AG unless this site is down ??? Message:

cq, It's a long story, why I don't go to AG, and not worth rehashing. I don't have enough time to keep up with this board, so I choose to hang here. Cynthia

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Date: Mon, Mar 26, 2001 at 17:59:07 (GMT) From: JHB Email: None To: Everyone Subject: A gem from Donner you may have missed Message:

From way down below (probably a good few hours old) I liked this gem from Donner about how instructors were selected:- i wonder who is still around and getting things done sometimes these days. when i heard that the guy who was once on our bongo list of instructors is/was in charge of security (oh, sorry, safety) at the programs, i had to laugh at the irony of that one. reminded me of when m use to make instructors...there would be these huge stacks of applications and i (sometimes others, bill paterson before me with same experience as me) would 'screen' them and make recommendations (told to) and m would completely ignore those recommendations and pick some really odd duck (so to speak), saying that he could make anyone an initiator (meaning a good one, no matter how troubled or terrible a speaker, etc), 'just watch me'. and i watched how he basically put many sincere folks into those positions and situations and they fell apart completely, became sick and totally dysfunctional. his personal ego trip. it became unbearable...and then be assigned to 'clean up the mess' he had made in their lives. part of the last straw of 1984.

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Date: Mon, Mar 26, 2001 at 21:37:37 (GMT) From: Brian Smith Email: None To: JHB Subject: So this is what and why? Message:

I wondered how Malcom ? (I forgot his last name) made it as instructor. I really do not want to discredit anyones effort but he stands out as a good example of this experiment. Lousy speaker, inept bumbling, lame and limp personality, the absolute least likely to person to convey the most sacred knowledge according to M. He must have been one of M's test tube babies, a behind the scene's wager, a sick and sorry failed attempt for M to prove a point. I know that Malcom tried to do his best but he was so ill equipped to deal with the rigors and demands of the job, It sounds like he probably was just a pawn in the play of M's personal power agenda that donner describes here. Sorry Malcom if you read this, if you do, maybe you already know and can contribute you own version.

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Date: Tues, Mar 27, 2001 at 00:23:45 (GMT) From: donner Email: None To: Brian Smith Subject: So this is what and why? Message:

malcolm is a good example of exactly that. wonderful guy, totally ill equiped to handle that form of 'service'...but then m claimed he could do anything...a failed alchemist really and a fraud at that.

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Date: Tues, Mar 27, 2001 at 01:13:25 (GMT) From: Brian Smith Email: None To: donner Subject: I guess m thought he could make a silk purse out Message:

of a sows ear, what arrogance. He must have believed his own press, he really did think he was god. Is this an accurate assumption Michael?

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Date: Tues, Mar 27, 2001 at 00:23:18 (GMT) From: Jethro Email: None To: Brian Smith Subject: Brian, I think the Malcomb you mention Message:

was my room mate for a while in the ashram. Do you know his surname or where he can=me from?

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Date: Tues, Mar 27, 2001 at 01:24:39 (GMT) From: Brian Smith Email: None To: Jethro Subject: No clue, a really nice guy apparently set up by M Message:

to prove a point, what total disregard of other peoples lives and abilities. This kind of brings up an interesting point though, since there is so much wiggle room in the requirement of Instructor by M and he can throw the qualifications out at will. Maybe he is right, anyone can be an instructor, I mean how difficult is it to poke someone in the eyes, tell them to push their tonque back past their tonsils, get them to breathe deeply, and stick their thumbs in their ears. It is a wide open field and anyone can play....

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Date: Tues, Mar 27, 2001 at 01:48:11 (GMT) From: Jethro Email: None To: Brian Smith Subject: Brian,can you tell me what happened to him?NT Message:

nt

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Date: Tues, Mar 27, 2001 at 04:46:20 (GMT) From: Brian Smith Email: None To: Jethro Subject: I have no idea, maybe donner knows Message:

more about him (Malcomb). He just seemed to disappear about a year or so after becoming an instuctor in the late 70's. I never saw him again at the festivals or events after that, he was kind of low key so he might attended without attracting attention to himself. I really don't know or never heard anything about him after that, this was always a mystery to me cause we had many gossipy church ladies who loved to talk like they were on the inside track about this kind of stuff. I did hear through the rumor mill heard that donner had moved to Eugene after his departure which is close to Portland. I asked Doug B. for his # and was informed that Michael had no desire to talk with premies for personal reasons. I completely understood that then and now, only for different reasons. It would have been rude of me to impose on him anyway and I am sure at that time he hadn't sorted it out yet himself and wasn't ready to openly share his story. All in due time as we all got here and everything is being said and shared more openly than I would have ever imagined. Many thanks to you donner, I am glad that you are contributing here today.

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Date: Mon, Mar 26, 2001 at 22:00:37 (GMT) From: Pat Conlon Email: None To: Brian Smith Subject: Also explains Whittaker, Smith and Belkis NT Message:

h

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Date: Tues, Mar 27, 2001 at 01:29:07 (GMT) From: Brian smith Email: None To: Pat Conlon Subject: good examples of other failed experiments (nt) Message:

w

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Date: Mon, Mar 26, 2001 at 18:58:24 (GMT) From: Francesca Email: None To: JHB Subject: Oh my God Message:

Donner's giving us the skeleton's under the flesh and bones. This happened to a premie who was my ashram roomie for a short time. I will not name names, but I was told that she was on the bongo list in LA as far as who should be called to give satsang. I really liked her so I didn't have the heart to even hint to her that I knew that. Then she was called for an IDP program (Initiator Development Program) shortly after I moved into the ashram. The few times I saw her after that, she was still a fledgling instructor and she was doing OK. She did stay at our house and one change that I noticed was that her needs had been simple, and suddenly she asked for Kiehls cosmetics and other little expensive 'queenie' things the female instructors felt they were entitled to. This while the ashram sisters would live chock-a-block with too many people in rooms, too much stuff in all the drawers and closets. I heard that Grace Wallis was also considered a bongo in the NY area until she was called for the IDP. I remember when they first trotted out the IDP candiates (they were usually brought down to the LA satsang hall to give satsang during their program) she had a lot of nervous tics. She seemed to lose those after I saw her later. Although she was always kind to me personally, and several of my non-ashram friends just loved Grace, her 'queenie' demands and expensive illnesses are legendary. I don't totally blame Grace, of course, because before I moved out of the SF ashram I told our community coordinator that the instructors should be given limits, and Grace should just be told 'no.' That was the only interaction I've ever had with Marsha Leitner that was close to an argument, and I could tell she thought the instructors and their needs were sacrosanct. The huge responsibility coupled with the ridiculous amount of power that instructors were given over other premies, even when they were pampering their egos going to expensive restaurants, buying expensive clothes and suits and breaking ashram furniture by being careless (David Smith's comment -- 'cheap chair') must have been equally hard for folks, such as Mr. Smith, that were a bit mentally unstable. However, to sing the praises, there were some instructors like Elliot Brye, who was just her wonderful self. She grew wheat grass in our ashram kitchen. Thanks, Mike Donner AND John. --f

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Date: Mon, Mar 26, 2001 at 19:07:32 (GMT) From: Pat Conlon Email: None To: Francesca Subject: Oh my God- what a sick cult of Santaism Message:

run by a drunken incompetent fool. Congratulations all you guys for getting out of it. Let's party hearty. Whoo whoo!

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Date: Mon, Mar 26, 2001 at 17:54:37 (GMT) From: Bazza Email: None To: Everyone Subject: Is this sad or what? OT Message:

Maybe its because I've been too busy to log in much recently, but right now I'm sat in a public laudromat with my laptop hooked up via my cellphone, reading the forum! Probably not a good idea in my neighbourhood either!! :)

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Date: Mon, Mar 26, 2001 at 19:53:05 (GMT) From: cq Email: None To: Bazza Subject: sad that you think launderettes are sad, Baz Message:

... more the half the population of the earth can't yet afford to use one. (sorry, mate, but it needs saying - we don't ALL aspire to being rich bastards like the Maha, y'know).

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Date: Tues, Mar 27, 2001 at 06:02:02 (GMT) From: Bazza Email: None To: cq Subject: sad that you think launderettes are sad, Baz Message:

But then they probably can't afford clothes either so it sort of evens itself out right? Why's everyone gone quiet all of a sudden....?

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Date: Tues, Mar 27, 2001 at 20:26:21 (GMT) From: cq Email: None To: Bazza Subject: I think one of us farted (nt) Message:

peeeeeeoooooooo!

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Date: Mon, Mar 26, 2001 at 18:00:35 (GMT) From: JHB Email: None To: Bazza Subject: It's sad..... Message:

...but probably better than watching your knickers go round:-) John.

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Date: Mon, Mar 26, 2001 at 19:04:38 (GMT) From: Jerry Email: None To: JHB Subject: It's sad..... Message:

Oh, I don't know, JHB, there's something soothing about watching suds. I always worry that I didn't put enough soap in the damn machine. After about 5 minutes or so you know by watching as it fills up with water. There's nothing quite like knowing, by the amount of suds, that you poured in just the right amount of soap. What's sad is that Bazza might be missing out on this great experience by looking at his computer instead.

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Date: Mon, Mar 26, 2001 at 23:04:10 (GMT) From: Sir Dave Email: None To: Jerry Subject: Jerry, an important sad question Message:

Were you 'Bluebeard' who appeared on this forum about two years ago for one day only? How's that for being sad?

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Date: Tues, Mar 27, 2001 at 11:59:36 (GMT) From: Jerry Email: None To: Sir Dave Subject: Jerry, an important sad question Message:

To be honest, Sir D, I don't recall. As a goof, trying to be funny, I've posted under several aliases now and again if the context called for it, but Bluebeard doesn't stand out as one of them. Why, what's so sad about Bluebeard? And what's so important about it?

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Date: Tues, Mar 27, 2001 at 22:19:34 (GMT) From: Jerry Email: None To: Jerry Subject: Hey, Dave! Message:

You've got me going with this. I vaguely remember posting as Bluebeard, but I don't remember what I said or in what context I said it. But what's really bugging me is why you're bringing it up now. Like you said, it was two years ago. And what do you mean, how's that for being sad? You're weirding me out, man.

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Date: Wed, Mar 28, 2001 at 01:43:14 (GMT) From: Sir Dave Email: None To: Jerry Subject: Hey, Dave! Message:

By 'sad' I mean, how's that for being sad? As in, how sad a person can I be for even hanging onto that piece of trivial information for two years. But what actually reminded me were the links that eDrek gave above to the Rob stuff. I had a look and there was Bluebeard's post and I remember thinking it was eDrek at the time. And then I read it again and low and behold, there at the end of Bluebeard's post was the name 'Jerry'.

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Date: Mon, Mar 26, 2001 at 19:10:41 (GMT) From: Pat Conlon Email: None To: Jerry Subject: It's absolutely fabulous, darling and I wish I had Message:

a laptop to pass away times waiting. Aren't we so lucky to have escaped the Santa whose toys should all be recalled as dangerous for unsuspecting and trusting kiddies.

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