Forum V: Archive
Compiled: Wed, Apr 04, 2001 at 14:21:22 (GMT)
From: Mar 27, 2001 To: Apr 03, 2001 Page: 3 Of: 5


Cynthia -:- Goomraji's Latest Goop... -:- Fri, Mar 30, 2001 at 16:25:56 (GMT)
__ Plato -:- Goomraji's Latest Goop... -:- Sat, Mar 31, 2001 at 01:06:20 (GMT)
__ cq -:- pipped me to the post -:- Fri, Mar 30, 2001 at 17:57:44 (GMT)
__ Jim -:- The rest is even worse! warning: major mind fuck -:- Fri, Mar 30, 2001 at 16:58:38 (GMT)
__ __ G -:- I wish I were a fish, that's what I'd truly like -:- Sat, Mar 31, 2001 at 17:47:29 (GMT)
__ __ Dermot -:- Jim/cq......really FUNNY !! (nt) -:- Fri, Mar 30, 2001 at 21:33:14 (GMT)
__ __ cq -:- the 'fridge magnet' school of philosophy -:- Fri, Mar 30, 2001 at 19:18:56 (GMT)
__ __ __ Pat Conlon -:- When the Irish and Brits come out swinging -:- Fri, Mar 30, 2001 at 20:16:47 (GMT)
__ __ Cynthia -:- The rest is even worse! warning: major mind fuck -:- Fri, Mar 30, 2001 at 18:59:01 (GMT)
__ __ Francesca -:- Yes 'there is pain'!!! -:- Fri, Mar 30, 2001 at 18:30:04 (GMT)
__ __ moldy warp -:- Jim - I'm not arguing with you today! -:- Fri, Mar 30, 2001 at 18:04:17 (GMT)
__ __ Mercedes -:- major mind fuck /brainfarting -:- Fri, Mar 30, 2001 at 17:40:48 (GMT)
__ donner -:- Goomraji's Latest Goop... -:- Fri, Mar 30, 2001 at 16:33:54 (GMT)
__ __ Pat Conlon -:- Rev MOONbutt gives up on mindless nirvana -:- Fri, Mar 30, 2001 at 18:25:29 (GMT)
__ __ __ G -:- Hindi version -:- Fri, Mar 30, 2001 at 20:09:30 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Pat Conlon -:- Hindi version - didn't J-M study Hindi? -:- Fri, Mar 30, 2001 at 20:20:51 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Jean-Michel -:- I did, but Charananand came and messed up -:- Fri, Mar 30, 2001 at 21:18:48 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Pat Conlon -:- Hi J-M, any other exes know Hindi? -:- Fri, Mar 30, 2001 at 21:27:45 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ janet -:- i did a search for translator sites tonite -:- Sat, Mar 31, 2001 at 08:51:53 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Pat Conlon -:- Hindi can be understood by most northern Indians -:- Sat, Mar 31, 2001 at 18:14:29 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ G -:- Good points, also -:- Sun, Apr 01, 2001 at 03:53:26 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Pat Conlon -:- No Sikhs - many are fundamentalist -:- Sun, Apr 01, 2001 at 09:27:37 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Katie H -:- Translation sites... -:- Sun, Apr 01, 2001 at 00:13:04 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Pat Conlon -:- Translation...yes, bad. I can do phonetic Hindi -:- Sun, Apr 01, 2001 at 01:44:56 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ G -:- Since the translation is a lot of work... -:- Sun, Apr 01, 2001 at 03:27:56 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ G -:- I have an idea. -:- Sun, Apr 01, 2001 at 03:41:48 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Pat Conlon -:- I have an idea - I'm listening , G -:- Sun, Apr 01, 2001 at 09:22:04 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ G -:- phonetic Hindi -:- Sun, Apr 01, 2001 at 16:51:44 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Pat Conlon -:- We'll have to take this conversation up -:- Sun, Apr 01, 2001 at 17:49:26 (GMT)

An undivine troll -:- Re Healing, PTSD and other stuff -:- Fri, Mar 30, 2001 at 13:37:26 (GMT)
__ janet -:- Re Healing -:- Sat, Mar 31, 2001 at 11:39:07 (GMT)
__ Pat Conlon - I wish you -:- You are not a troll and I thank you for your post -:- Sat, Mar 31, 2001 at 03:37:13 (GMT)
__ Brian Smith -:- I never came here to heal, I came to talk -:- Sat, Mar 31, 2001 at 03:13:29 (GMT)
__ Hal -:- Interesting post - thanks. Nt -:- Fri, Mar 30, 2001 at 21:03:46 (GMT)
__ __ Hal -:- ps ever met a certain scandinavian called Bj..nt -:- Fri, Mar 30, 2001 at 21:10:26 (GMT)
__ __ __ Katie H -:- my sentiments exactly, Hal (nt) -:- Sat, Mar 31, 2001 at 16:23:21 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Hal -:- It 's pretty easy to spot ain't it katie ? ot / nt -:- Sun, Apr 01, 2001 at 12:59:08 (GMT)
__ Susan -:- this isn't a censorable post at all -:- Fri, Mar 30, 2001 at 15:39:32 (GMT)
__ Connie -:- Re Healing, PTSD and other stuff -:- Fri, Mar 30, 2001 at 14:45:05 (GMT)
__ __ Chuck Sprague -:- Thank you, Connie, well said. -:- Fri, Mar 30, 2001 at 20:39:58 (GMT)
__ gerry -:- Not a bad post, on the whole... -:- Fri, Mar 30, 2001 at 14:36:36 (GMT)

Babs -:- On The Sun but not completely OT -:- Fri, Mar 30, 2001 at 05:42:13 (GMT)
__ Joy -:- A Message from Katie D. -:- Fri, Mar 30, 2001 at 16:55:42 (GMT)
__ Neighbor Gregg -:- Journaling: OT -:- Fri, Mar 30, 2001 at 15:15:59 (GMT)
__ Jerry -:- Not OT at all! -:- Fri, Mar 30, 2001 at 12:20:52 (GMT)
__ carol -:- Love your writing! and hello nt -:- Fri, Mar 30, 2001 at 10:55:32 (GMT)
__ Pat Conlon -:- NOT OT: Thank the muses you kept that journal -:- Fri, Mar 30, 2001 at 09:11:18 (GMT)
__ Francesca -:- Love you, Babs -:- Fri, Mar 30, 2001 at 06:01:23 (GMT)
__ Richard -:- On The Sun - definitely ON topic Babs -:- Fri, Mar 30, 2001 at 06:00:06 (GMT)
__ __ Roy -:- journal generosity -:- Sat, Mar 31, 2001 at 02:58:57 (GMT)

Tony(Aussi Ji) -:- nedd help from exes married to premies -:- Fri, Mar 30, 2001 at 04:40:24 (GMT)
__ Pat Conlon -:- God, I wish I could help you, Tony -:- Sat, Mar 31, 2001 at 05:13:46 (GMT)
__ __ Tony(Aussi Ji) -:- God, I wish I could help you, Tony -:- Sat, Mar 31, 2001 at 20:54:35 (GMT)
__ Moldy Warp -:- Tony - tried to Email you -:- Fri, Mar 30, 2001 at 17:30:23 (GMT)
__ __ Tony(Aussi Ji) -:- Woops!I stuffed up.here is my correcr -:- Sat, Mar 31, 2001 at 20:38:42 (GMT)
__ __ Tony(Aussi Ji) -:- G'day Moldy,My email address should -:- Sat, Mar 31, 2001 at 20:04:12 (GMT)
__ donner -:- nedd help from exes married to premies -:- Fri, Mar 30, 2001 at 16:29:51 (GMT)
__ __ Tony(Aussi Ji) -:- nedd help from exes married to premies -:- Sat, Mar 31, 2001 at 20:10:16 (GMT)
__ Katie H. -:- nedd help from exes married to premies -:- Fri, Mar 30, 2001 at 15:19:17 (GMT)
__ __ Tony(Aussi Ji) -:- nedd help from exes married to premies -:- Sat, Mar 31, 2001 at 20:19:48 (GMT)
__ magnolia -:- make more love, not war! -:- Fri, Mar 30, 2001 at 15:16:40 (GMT)
__ __ Tony(Aussi Ji) -:- make more love, not war! -:- Sat, Mar 31, 2001 at 20:25:30 (GMT)
__ salam -:- nedd help from exes married to premies -:- Fri, Mar 30, 2001 at 15:07:47 (GMT)
__ __ Sandy -:- alcohol as therapy and communication tool -:- Fri, Mar 30, 2001 at 17:17:24 (GMT)
__ __ __ salam -:- Say that to Tony -:- Sat, Mar 31, 2001 at 11:12:09 (GMT)
__ Sandy -:- nedd help from exes married to premies -:- Fri, Mar 30, 2001 at 14:31:00 (GMT)
__ __ Tony(Aussi Ji) -:- nedd help from exes married to premies -:- Sat, Mar 31, 2001 at 20:43:36 (GMT)
__ __ salam -:- nedd help from exes married to premies--ot -:- Fri, Mar 30, 2001 at 16:12:50 (GMT)
__ Tonette -:- Each situation is a little different -:- Fri, Mar 30, 2001 at 10:13:26 (GMT)
__ __ Tony(Aussi Ji) -:- Each situation is a little different -:- Sat, Mar 31, 2001 at 20:35:27 (GMT)

Katie H. -:- Pat C - the new revisionism? -:- Thurs, Mar 29, 2001 at 20:12:50 (GMT)
__ Pat Conlon -:- the new revisionism - I will address this later -:- Thurs, Mar 29, 2001 at 21:00:17 (GMT)
__ __ Pat Conlon -:- OK, Katie, here it is -:- Fri, Mar 30, 2001 at 02:16:46 (GMT)
__ __ __ Katie H -:- Patrick, thanks for telling us! -:- Fri, Mar 30, 2001 at 06:13:28 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Pat Conlon -:- I am ''grateful'' for the delete button -:- Fri, Mar 30, 2001 at 08:48:52 (GMT)
__ __ __ Francesca -:- Tell the truth and shame the Scamster! -:- Fri, Mar 30, 2001 at 05:23:07 (GMT)
__ __ __ Gregg -:- Pudding Proof -:- Fri, Mar 30, 2001 at 05:00:29 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Pat Conlon -:- better late than never/ I am very ''grateful'' -:- Fri, Mar 30, 2001 at 08:41:05 (GMT)

Forum Admin -:- Amaroo -:- Thurs, Mar 29, 2001 at 18:50:34 (GMT)
__ Tony(Aussi Ji) -:- My best mate works at Amaroo -:- Thurs, Mar 29, 2001 at 20:58:18 (GMT)
__ Brian -:- Amaroo: a monument to self-sacrifice -:- Thurs, Mar 29, 2001 at 19:47:48 (GMT)
__ __ Loaf -:- Very True Brian... -:- Fri, Mar 30, 2001 at 07:14:50 (GMT)
__ __ Francesca -:- Correction -- didn't mention it there n/t -:- Thurs, Mar 29, 2001 at 20:24:16 (GMT)
__ __ Francesca -:- I agree -- Did mention this same concern below -- -:- Thurs, Mar 29, 2001 at 20:21:38 (GMT)
__ Katie H. -:- I feel for these people -:- Thurs, Mar 29, 2001 at 19:35:55 (GMT)
__ __ Kelly -:- I feel for these people -:- Thurs, Mar 29, 2001 at 21:06:38 (GMT)
__ __ __ Katie H. -:- Thanks, Kelly -:- Thurs, Mar 29, 2001 at 21:13:50 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Kelly -:- It was a shock to hear that M owns Amaroo -:- Thurs, Mar 29, 2001 at 21:45:40 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Katie H. -:- to echo Donner's post below - M could give it back -:- Thurs, Mar 29, 2001 at 21:50:58 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Kelly -:- Haha! good one, and pigs might fly! nt -:- Thurs, Mar 29, 2001 at 21:55:51 (GMT)
__ Nigel -:- 'ex-premie onslaught...?' -:- Thurs, Mar 29, 2001 at 18:58:02 (GMT)
__ __ Katie H. -:- They're talking about YOU, Nigel :) (nt) -:- Thurs, Mar 29, 2001 at 19:37:05 (GMT)
__ __ G -:- You know, the stink bombs :) -:- Thurs, Mar 29, 2001 at 19:11:52 (GMT)
__ __ cq -:- Skywriting?? Brilliant idea - any Oz exes around? -:- Thurs, Mar 29, 2001 at 19:07:07 (GMT)
__ __ __ Nervous 'Roo Organizer -:- Note to self -:- Fri, Mar 30, 2001 at 03:34:00 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ cq -:- propagation certainly has taken a new turn! (nt) -:- Fri, Mar 30, 2001 at 18:20:35 (GMT)
__ __ __ Selene -:- plane carrying banner might be cheaper -:- Thurs, Mar 29, 2001 at 19:20:54 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Cynthia -:- Selene, LOLOL!.... -:- Thurs, Mar 29, 2001 at 22:09:25 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Selene -:- similar thoughts -:- Fri, Mar 30, 2001 at 01:22:03 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ G -:- Could do something in Ipswich, parade down... -:- Thurs, Mar 29, 2001 at 21:09:57 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Francesca -:- What about: 'Monica Lewis will you marry me' n/t -:- Thurs, Mar 29, 2001 at 20:28:40 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Selene -:- haha I wonder... -:- Thurs, Mar 29, 2001 at 22:46:07 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Francesca -:- haha I wonder... -:- Thurs, Mar 29, 2001 at 23:33:19 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Selene -:- two banners then -:- Fri, Mar 30, 2001 at 01:06:38 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Katie -:- a suggestion -:- Fri, Mar 30, 2001 at 01:12:28 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Francesca -:- Three banners then ... uh, no, actually we need .. -:- Fri, Mar 30, 2001 at 06:16:37 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Marianne -:- Frannie, you are a bad girl! -:- Fri, Mar 30, 2001 at 10:27:15 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Francesca -:- Frannie, you are a bad girl! -:- Fri, Mar 30, 2001 at 16:55:11 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Selene -:- another great one! -:- Fri, Mar 30, 2001 at 01:23:53 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Katie H -:- so is asking for US dollars only for registration! -:- Fri, Mar 30, 2001 at 01:32:12 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Selene -:- oh I get it. greed wins and in that case -:- Fri, Mar 30, 2001 at 01:42:59 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Marianne -:- Selenie!!!! -:- Thurs, Mar 29, 2001 at 19:23:15 (GMT)

michael donner -:- care? -:- Thurs, Mar 29, 2001 at 06:22:30 (GMT)
__ Gregg -:- Yes! -:- Fri, Mar 30, 2001 at 04:07:02 (GMT)
__ Katie H. -:- expect nothing - but hope? -:- Thurs, Mar 29, 2001 at 22:20:55 (GMT)
__ __ donner -:- expect nothing - but hope? -:- Fri, Mar 30, 2001 at 02:29:48 (GMT)
__ __ __ Katie H -:- expect nothing - but hope? -:- Fri, Mar 30, 2001 at 06:11:04 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ donner -:- expect nothing - but hope? -:- Fri, Mar 30, 2001 at 15:38:16 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ donner -:- expect nothing - but hope? -:- Fri, Mar 30, 2001 at 15:54:32 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Katie H -:- expect nothing - but hope? -:- Fri, Mar 30, 2001 at 16:10:02 (GMT)
__ Wildflower -:- care? -:- Thurs, Mar 29, 2001 at 22:15:45 (GMT)
__ __ Mercedes -:- Thanks... -:- Fri, Mar 30, 2001 at 03:36:03 (GMT)
__ __ Pat Conlon -:- Hi, Wildflower, any friend of Francesca's -:- Fri, Mar 30, 2001 at 02:29:11 (GMT)
__ __ Katie H. -:- Thanks, Wildflower -:- Fri, Mar 30, 2001 at 01:10:38 (GMT)
__ __ Richard -:- Wonderful post Wildflower and welcome! -:- Fri, Mar 30, 2001 at 00:56:13 (GMT)
__ __ Moldy Warp -:- Hello Wildflower. nice to 'meet' you -:- Fri, Mar 30, 2001 at 00:46:02 (GMT)
__ Bryn -:- If this is going to be part of my evolution... -:- Thurs, Mar 29, 2001 at 22:05:29 (GMT)
__ Francesca -:- I don't care -:- Thurs, Mar 29, 2001 at 18:38:16 (GMT)
__ Richard -:- A glimmer of humility or humanity would help -:- Thurs, Mar 29, 2001 at 16:24:54 (GMT)
__ Susan -:- Wow GREAT subject!!! -:- Thurs, Mar 29, 2001 at 15:05:17 (GMT)
__ __ donner -:- Wow GREAT subject!!! -:- Fri, Mar 30, 2001 at 02:40:40 (GMT)
__ __ __ Susan -:- I agree with you -:- Fri, Mar 30, 2001 at 02:53:32 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Richard -:- The speech was written for me and others here -:- Fri, Mar 30, 2001 at 05:43:22 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ donner -:- The speech was written for me and others here -:- Fri, Mar 30, 2001 at 15:39:45 (GMT)
__ __ Kelly -:- Wow GREAT subject!!! and great thread! -:- Thurs, Mar 29, 2001 at 21:34:29 (GMT)
__ Connie -:- care? -:- Thurs, Mar 29, 2001 at 14:58:41 (GMT)
__ __ donner -:- care? -:- Fri, Mar 30, 2001 at 02:44:00 (GMT)
__ bill -:- better that the devil keep his horns. -:- Thurs, Mar 29, 2001 at 13:45:10 (GMT)
__ __ bill -:- Anyone care to call Kitty Kelley?...nt -:- Thurs, Mar 29, 2001 at 13:51:48 (GMT)
__ Scott T. -:- care? -:- Thurs, Mar 29, 2001 at 12:37:45 (GMT)
__ Loaf -:- I agree MD ! Forget M - lets heal US ! -:- Thurs, Mar 29, 2001 at 12:37:43 (GMT)
__ Dermot -:- 'hope for and expect from?' -:- Thurs, Mar 29, 2001 at 11:46:25 (GMT)
__ __ Francesca -:- Great post Dermot, especially this, for me -- -:- Thurs, Mar 29, 2001 at 18:45:09 (GMT)
__ Patrick Wilson -:- My position since I posted that report. -:- Thurs, Mar 29, 2001 at 11:35:00 (GMT)
__ __ donner -:- My position since I posted that report. -:- Fri, Mar 30, 2001 at 02:52:03 (GMT)
__ __ __ Dermot -:- Patrick W... -:- Fri, Mar 30, 2001 at 14:53:54 (GMT)
__ __ __ Patrick W -:- My position since I posted that report. -:- Fri, Mar 30, 2001 at 11:51:20 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ donner -:- My position since I posted that report. -:- Fri, Mar 30, 2001 at 15:43:58 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Susan -:- can people really change, and if they change how -:- Fri, Mar 30, 2001 at 16:07:56 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ donner -:- can people really change, and if they change how -:- Fri, Mar 30, 2001 at 16:39:39 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Connie -:- difference between people changing -:- Sat, Mar 31, 2001 at 00:36:51 (GMT)
__ __ __ Susan -:- so what? -:- Fri, Mar 30, 2001 at 03:05:01 (GMT)
__ __ Pat Conlon -:- Patrick W - I apologise -:- Thurs, Mar 29, 2001 at 19:18:53 (GMT)
__ __ __ Patrick Wilson -:- To my detractors -:- Thurs, Mar 29, 2001 at 20:23:59 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ bill--I must be too dense -:- to see the flaws of my forum mates!...nt -:- Fri, Mar 30, 2001 at 02:24:34 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ bill--I managed to miss -:- rawat's grevious defects as well--for years!!..nt -:- Fri, Mar 30, 2001 at 02:26:54 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Pat Conlon - I wish you -:- would stop posting only one-liners and give us -:- Fri, Mar 30, 2001 at 02:34:04 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ bill -:- Im off to boston so give me a few days....nt -:- Fri, Mar 30, 2001 at 12:49:32 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Katie H -:- PW, he already apologized to you once -:- Thurs, Mar 29, 2001 at 20:59:10 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ donner -:- PW, he already apologized to you once -:- Fri, Mar 30, 2001 at 02:55:25 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Katie H -:- I AM the one who posted about thread deterioration -:- Fri, Mar 30, 2001 at 06:20:41 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Patrick W -:- PW, he already apologized to you once -:- Thurs, Mar 29, 2001 at 21:19:31 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Katie H. -:- Well, if that's the way you feel -:- Thurs, Mar 29, 2001 at 21:23:12 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Pat Conlon -:- PW, please leave your journey - it helped me NT -:- Thurs, Mar 29, 2001 at 21:05:02 (GMT)
__ __ Francesca -:- I personally appreciate you Pat W ... -:- Thurs, Mar 29, 2001 at 18:51:49 (GMT)
__ __ Sir Dave -:- The wolves Patrick, the wolves are baying -:- Thurs, Mar 29, 2001 at 16:47:28 (GMT)
__ __ Friend of Patrick -:- My position since I posted that report. -:- Thurs, Mar 29, 2001 at 16:22:34 (GMT)
__ __ __ Jim -:- Please, certify me as an 'M Hater' -:- Fri, Mar 30, 2001 at 17:24:27 (GMT)
__ __ __ donner -:- My position since I posted that report. -:- Fri, Mar 30, 2001 at 15:46:47 (GMT)
__ __ __ Brian -:- Don't worry -:- Thurs, Mar 29, 2001 at 23:39:54 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ donner -:- Don't worry -:- Fri, Mar 30, 2001 at 18:47:01 (GMT)
__ __ __ bill -:- The unconcious oneness is too blame! -:- Thurs, Mar 29, 2001 at 17:42:28 (GMT)
__ __ __ Katie H. -:- Thank you, but please don't generalize -:- Thurs, Mar 29, 2001 at 16:59:40 (GMT)
__ __ __ Sir Dave -:- Why tar everyone with the same brush? -:- Thurs, Mar 29, 2001 at 16:34:10 (GMT)
__ __ __ Richard -:- Patrick W and Friend of Patrick and.... -:- Thurs, Mar 29, 2001 at 16:31:03 (GMT)
__ __ __ Marianne -:- Thanks for this post -:- Thurs, Mar 29, 2001 at 16:27:40 (GMT)
__ __ Connie -:- My position since I posted that report. -:- Thurs, Mar 29, 2001 at 13:35:44 (GMT)
__ __ bill -:- wow, Anon, that must have been quite a lunch!..nt -:- Thurs, Mar 29, 2001 at 13:15:38 (GMT)
__ __ __ bill -:- Anon -:- Thurs, Mar 29, 2001 at 14:04:58 (GMT)
__ __ Katie H -:- My position since I posted that report. -:- Thurs, Mar 29, 2001 at 12:43:16 (GMT)
__ __ JHB -:- Stick around, please! -:- Thurs, Mar 29, 2001 at 12:42:35 (GMT)
__ __ Dermot -:- My position since I posted that report. -:- Thurs, Mar 29, 2001 at 12:20:13 (GMT)
__ __ __ Francesca -:- I agree. What's the point of talking to Raja Ji -:- Thurs, Mar 29, 2001 at 20:55:15 (GMT)
__ Sir Dave -:- care? -:- Thurs, Mar 29, 2001 at 11:34:01 (GMT)
__ __ donner -:- care? -:- Fri, Mar 30, 2001 at 02:59:43 (GMT)
__ __ Selene -:- meeting and sharing -:- Thurs, Mar 29, 2001 at 17:40:45 (GMT)
__ AJW -:- care alright -:- Thurs, Mar 29, 2001 at 10:17:24 (GMT)
__ __ donner -:- care alright -:- Fri, Mar 30, 2001 at 03:00:59 (GMT)
__ Pat Conlon -:- care? Whether Rev Rawat reforms or not? No! -:- Thurs, Mar 29, 2001 at 08:38:02 (GMT)
__ __ Lester -:- care? Whether Rev Rawat reforms or not? No! -:- Thurs, Mar 29, 2001 at 13:04:35 (GMT)
__ __ __ Pat Conlon -:- Thanks for that long post Lester - terrific -:- Fri, Mar 30, 2001 at 05:46:51 (GMT)
__ __ __ Dermot -:- Good post Lester ! (nt) -:- Thurs, Mar 29, 2001 at 13:09:54 (GMT)
__ Brian Smith -:- You are absolutely right donner -:- Thurs, Mar 29, 2001 at 08:32:35 (GMT)
__ Daneane -:- care? -:- Thurs, Mar 29, 2001 at 07:43:24 (GMT)
__ __ bill -:- Great post Donner, you too Daneane...nt -:- Thurs, Mar 29, 2001 at 14:07:31 (GMT)
__ Mercedes -:- Ditto!!!!!!! NT -:- Thurs, Mar 29, 2001 at 07:00:12 (GMT)
__ Rick -:- care? -:- Thurs, Mar 29, 2001 at 06:54:17 (GMT)
__ __ Marianne -:- Justice -:- Thurs, Mar 29, 2001 at 09:38:22 (GMT)
__ __ __ Pat Conlon -:- Justice - thank you, Marianne NT -:- Thurs, Mar 29, 2001 at 19:46:13 (GMT)
__ __ __ janet -:- Justice-i stand with YOU. this is what I want 2 c -:- Thurs, Mar 29, 2001 at 11:17:38 (GMT)
__ __ __ Tonette -:- Way to go Marianne -:- Thurs, Mar 29, 2001 at 10:24:41 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ red butler -:- dream 19 recycled... -:- Thurs, Mar 29, 2001 at 16:50:38 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Rick -:- well done, red butler BRAVO nt -:- Fri, Mar 30, 2001 at 12:16:55 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Susan- Even better the -:- second time around! nt -:- Fri, Mar 30, 2001 at 20:58:12 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Selene -:- good to see you Red Butler -:- Thurs, Mar 29, 2001 at 17:32:09 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ bill -:- our own Hunter S Thompson....nt -:- Thurs, Mar 29, 2001 at 17:49:36 (GMT)


Date: Fri, Mar 30, 2001 at 16:25:56 (GMT)
From: Cynthia
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: Goomraji's Latest Goop...
Message:
EV newletter, for 3/30/01:
Edited excerpt, Maharaji in Thessalonika, 2nd March 2001

''I'm sure that everybody here has dreamt of having a dream house, of building themselves a dream house. I'm sure people have
dreamt of what it would be like to wear certain clothes, or go to
certain places. To have a particular car, or to have riches.
But have you dreamt of a life with no questions, just answers? Have you dreamt of a life with no confusion, just clarity? What would that be like? What do you think? To the mind, it would be like, 'Huh? No thank-you. Thinking is good. Questions are important.' Somebody came up with this formula a long time ago.
Questions are good because they lead you to the answers. So, how old are you? Thirty, forty, fifty, sixty? Take a look around. Isn't it still all questions and no answers? All questions, every day.

''Remember those days that can only be recalled from movies, when they had only horses. No highways, no roads - and the dream of that man who invented the automobile. He dreamed that, one day, people wouldn't have to sit behind a horse. I don't know if you have sat behind a horse. If you had, you would know you definitely get much more than you pay for. But in his dream, you wouldn't have to feed this thing hay, and you would be able to cover long distances so quickly. The world would be a 'better' place.

''There's lots of those horse-less carriages now. You still don't want to get too close to their backs. The only difference is, at least you know the horse is organic: it won't kill you. I mean even if you walked into a room where there was one horse and you closed all the doors, it still wouldn't kill you by the morning. And so, here we are, with plenty of horse-less carriages. And yes, people go further and further. And yet, has it really changed the face of the world for the better?

''Then, of course, you also had those Wright brothers, dreaming of flying. Now, they're trying to come up with these mega-giant airplanes - so big that they are at the design limit of a conventional tube-fuselage attached to a conventional wing. Will the world be a better place? Will your questions be answered? Will your problems be solved?

''Or will that only happen on that day where you recognize simplicity in your life, when you feel that breath coming, like a blessing - like a divine blessing. If God had hands, this is how that power would choose to touch you with its divinity. So obvious and yet so subtle. So needed, and yet so transparent. So complicated, but so simple. To recognize my thirst for that, to acknowledge my yearning, is what I want in my life. Yes, there will be other things. But this is what I really want. This is my track. Let me be fulfilled every day. Let that be my motto. My school used to have a motto: 'Work is worship.' I thought it was neat. But 'Let me be fulfilled,' would have made a better motto.

''It's not too late. Not too late, to begin. To begin by feeling the simplicity, to begin with that feeling of gratitude which says, 'Thank you for this life. Thank you.' And to whom? Don't you know?''

*********

Cynthia says: whaafuck? The goob is at it again, and his brazenness (sp?) to continue to speak about dream houses, cars, and planes--well, I'm amazed at his audacity, again. He did leave out timepieces this time, anyway....

What an idiot! And the last line is a corker, too.

No responses necessary. This one happened to catch my attention because it was said so recently! Btw, where the hell is Thessalonika?

Best,
Cynthia, Up to my neck in yet another Nor'easter (12-18 inches expected), having cabin fever, and very much in need of green grass and leaves!

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Date: Sat, Mar 31, 2001 at 01:06:20 (GMT)
From: Plato
Email: None
To: Cynthia
Subject: Goomraji's Latest Goop...
Message:
Btw, where the hell is Thessalonika?
Greece
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Date: Fri, Mar 30, 2001 at 17:57:44 (GMT)
From: cq
Email: None
To: Cynthia
Subject: pipped me to the post
Message:
Just got off work and was about to post the following when I noticed your post Cynthia. Still, here's what I was going to say:


Today's spoutings from M on the EV website are remarkable in their crassness (that's a personal opinion you realise, feel free to disagree), but one quote I'll mention here as an example of the 'unanswered question' ploy that the Maha so often uses. Those 'in the know' will immediately recognise what answer he's expecting his devoted ones to come up with.

Heeeeeeeeeere's Maha: in Thessalonika, 2nd March 2001

'It's not too late. Not too late, to begin. To begin by feeling the
simplicity, to begin with that feeling of gratitude which says,
'Thank you for this life. Thank you.' And to whom? Don't you
know?
'

.
.
.

I know!

er ... my parents?

(and not you, you deceitful, insinuating, greedy little greaseball ...)

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Date: Fri, Mar 30, 2001 at 16:58:38 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Cynthia
Subject: The rest is even worse! warning: major mind fuck
Message:
Thinking is not bad. I'm not saying don't think. Don't mistake me. It's not in the mind's nature not to think. Don't even try to make it do it. It does not know this thing called 'not thinking'. It will chase you around saying, 'Why don't you try to get me not to think?' So that you sit there and ask yourself, 'Have I reached the state where I'm not thinking?' And then, 'I think I've reached the state where I'm not thinking.' It will do that to you. But it's not its nature not to think. Okay, that's the set up. After years of trying to sell us just the opposite, the Hamster tries to co-opt the practical (like in 'DuHHH!') reply that it's simply impossible to stop thinking. So now the Hamster tries to somehow make that simple truth his own. Check it out -- HE's now telling US that we have to be realistic about this. What a joke, huh? But then he comes in with soem obscure but menacing hindu mumbo jumbo: With the mind, so much pride, so much ego comes into it. The wind blows, and it picks up a leaf and the leaf begins to fly for a few feet. The leaf should not start thinking that it has the capability to fly, because it doesn't. It was the wind that lifted it. What the fuck is THAT? We're supposed to take this seriously? This hackneyed anthropomorphism? Is this a children's book? 'At the Back of the North Wind' or something?

So it is that you, too, stand on the pillar of that breath and think. Not otherwise. You're not alive because of your capacity to think. You're alive because you're standing on that beautiful pillar of breath.Holy Moly! What an amazing mind-fuck. I can just imagine myself still in the cult hearing this and trying out yet another new template, this one weirder than many. The Hamster's trying to get me to somehow imagine my thinking on a bed of breath like curry on rice. And what? I'm actually supposed to live like that? Well, I guess it beats imagining his own fat, greasy Hamsterness on a swing inside like he was urging last year, but still ..... Without knowing that, you are like a leaf that is blown a few feet by the wind and says, 'Ah. I can fly now.' No, that was the wind. It just picked you up. There's a humility here. What kind of humility? Not the kind of humility that embraces guilt. No, no, no. Wrong ingredient. Liar! That's exactly what this is -- a new guilt trip. If you're not as humble as a leaf, well, you're on the wrong page. This is the beauty of Knowledge. It is not about what you did yesterday. It is about recognizing today, about acknowledging today, about seeing the ageless within, and being happy.I live for your poetry, you idiot. Quit teasing me like this.

We have become creatures of thinking. Thought, thought, thought, thought, thought - we don't even know what to think about anymore. People have to tell us what we should be thinking about. It's called 'news'. Sit back, relax, turn on your TV. Now you can get some download - information of what it is that you should be thinking about. Is this not the Hamster's way of telling his cult members that 'no news is good news' as in 'what the hell do you really need to learn anything about me for, anyway?' Call me paranoid but I think he's being a bit paranoid here.

You have forgotten your simplicity and have become complicated. And in your complication, you feel pain because you have separated from the most fundamental thing there is.Now there's a nice fridge magnet for you! Talk about positive affirmations. Have you ever seen a fish out of water? Do you know what it's trying to do? It's trying to swim back to the water. It doesn't know it's been pulled out of water. It doesn't know that maybe somebody is going to kill it. It doesn't know any of those things. All it knows is by taking that tail and swinging it, maybe, just maybe, it will get back to its home, it will get back to that water, where it can breathe. What kind of existence is it to be a fish? Down there, you don't have phones, you don't have computers, you don't have cars, you don't fly, you don't have television. But that fish is not interested in television, is not interested in your policies and politics. It just wants one more chance to get back to that water because it knows that's where it will need to be to breathe, to exist. To be.

A fish just wants to get back to its home, back to that water, where it can breathe.

And look at us. We're the fish that is pulled out of the water, and we say, 'Wow. Nice boat.' We're the ones pulled out of the water and we go, 'Wow. An imported net.' And as the person gets ready to cut the head off, we say, 'Look at that German knife. Isn't that incredible? High quality.' Because the basics have evaporated.Okay, I'm the first to enjoy a good joke and the knife thing's funny. But really, brothers and sisters, is this not the ugliest of mind-fucks? A dumb fish thinks nothing at all and he's chastising us for doing a bit better than that. Instead we should be gasping for breath or something? What a motherfucker he is. Maharaji, one day I'd like a public audience with you. Anytime, anyplace. You name it, asshole. I'll wipe that dumbass grin off your face. Either that or see you hold it on with both hands in sheer embarrassment.

When the simple is converted into the complicated, there is pain. When all you have is questions and no answers, there is suffering. When love has gone, there is pain. That is why you cannot afford to forget who you are.What? A fish? A leaf? What? Tell me, guru, because, yes, I'm forgetting. Hell, let's face it, I've forgotten. Tell me, please, oh Master. I give up. Here's my credit card number. Let thine will be mine. I surrender. How's the yacht?

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Date: Sat, Mar 31, 2001 at 17:47:29 (GMT)
From: G
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: I wish I were a fish, that's what I'd truly like
Message:
to be.

'... But that fish is not interested in television, is not interested in your policies and politics. It just wants one more chance to get back to that water because it knows that's where it will need to be to breathe, to exist. To be.

A fish just wants to get back to its home, back to that water, where it can breathe.

And look at us. We're the fish that is pulled out of the water, and we say, 'Wow. Nice boat.' We're the ones pulled out of the water and we go, 'Wow. An imported net.' And as the person gets ready to cut the head off, we say, 'Look at that German knife. Isn't that incredible? High quality.' ...'

Gosh, that fish is so superior to me, I wish I were born a fish instead of being a lowly human being. Then I too would gasp before being killed by a fisherman. I want to gasp just like that fish. Maybe I should get a lobotomy, then it would be easier to just focus on my breath. I wouldn't be interested in any of that evil stuff like TV and policies and politics. I would only love my goo miragey and give Him that evil money in my wallet so He can clean it by buying things like a 106 foot yacht, a house in LA where he can give some special charnamrit to some of His gopis, and many expensive watches. There's just something about Him spending my money that cleans it.

Ok, now I'll be serious. I wonder if Rawat ever thought of the fact that breathing, besides helping to sustain us, can also contribute to our death (via the damaging effects of oxygen like free radical damage). I could be that breathing feels good because that good feeling represents something that is good for our bodies, whereas holding our breath feels bad because we are not supposed to, it keeps us in line. I still focus on the feeling of my breathing sometimes, and it can be relaxing and feel great, but turning it into a deity is strange. This shows that Rawat doesn't understand meditation. In the '80s someone asked him how the techniques work, he said 'I don't know.'

In this mind fuck, he lumps everything about the world into one big gooby goopy goo, as if it is all bad for us and will kill us. Oh, except for making money for him then giving him the money, listening to him and doing what he says, as if he's not part of the world. It's like he's saying 'Don't watch TV, it will kill you! Don't get involved with politics, it's deadly! Watch out for those evil policies of yours, you should only obey me. I am the Master, you will obey ME! Otherwise you will DIE!'

I am appalled. This very recent illusory goo from goomiragey is just as vile as anything he's ever said.

Some of it does seem like he's talking to himself, he could have easily said 'Look at that Rolex watch. Isn't that incredible? High quality.', and he probably does have the very finest quality German knives in his kitchen, after all, how does he know about them, why is he talking about them? They are probably a lot better than my cutlery, not that I care, I'm not nearly as materialistic as him.

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Date: Fri, Mar 30, 2001 at 21:33:14 (GMT)
From: Dermot
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Jim/cq......really FUNNY !! (nt)
Message:
zz
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Date: Fri, Mar 30, 2001 at 19:18:56 (GMT)
From: cq
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: the 'fridge magnet' school of philosophy
Message:
Great phrase there Jim - the 'fridge magnet' school of philosophy

Re-arrange the following words in almost any order to summarise the so-called 'philosophy' of Master Maha (ha-ha-ha) -

.
.
.

simplicity

life

is

inside

the

gratitude

breath

key

of

within

knowledge

mind

master

money


.
.
.
(I may have missed a few ... but then again, too few to mention).

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Date: Fri, Mar 30, 2001 at 20:16:47 (GMT)
From: Pat Conlon
Email: None
To: cq
Subject: When the Irish and Brits come out swinging
Message:
I have to go to work. Shit. Have fun, guys.
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Date: Fri, Mar 30, 2001 at 18:59:01 (GMT)
From: Cynthia
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: The rest is even worse! warning: major mind fuck
Message:
Jim,

I don't know where you get the energy, but that was one good analysis...

Of all my observations, and as Donner said below, Capt. Rawat's focus is entirely upon himself. He does sound like a rambling, narcissistic boozer talking to himself. No variation on theme, babble, babble, babble...no wonder Amaroo's turning in to a total wash out!

YET, the scary, dangerous part is that it a TOTAL MIND-FUCK!

I always hesitate to post these ''speeches'' but today I couldn't resist...especially the part at the end:

Thank you for this life. Thank you.' And to whom? Don't you
know?'

I cannot believe that he still persists....LOLOL!

Love,
Cynth


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Date: Fri, Mar 30, 2001 at 18:30:04 (GMT)
From: Francesca
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Yes 'there is pain'!!!
Message:
'When the simple is converted into the complicated, there is pain.'

He's hit the nail on the bloody head here! This guy doesn't even know how to meditate, so all he does is talk about the breath, and breathing and then goes off on a million tangents. Yes, by god, there is pain! He's made the simple fact that we breathe, without ever taking us past that, into a zillion permutations of babble.

This other part Jim, is so true:

Rawat: Without knowing that, you are like a leaf that is blown a few feet by the wind and says, 'Ah. I can fly now.' No, that was the wind. It just picked you up. There's a humility here. What kind of humility? Not the kind of humility that embraces guilt. No, no, no. Wrong ingredient. Jim: Liar! That's exactly what this is -- a new guilt trip. If you're not as humble as a leaf, well, you're on the wrong page.

You've got the dancing spiritual cockroach by the tail here. His talks, for years, have been peppered with different versions of these guilt trips. His message to me is always to babble this gentle fluff, and then sucker-punch 'ya with -- You ignorant fool. I'm here to show you the way.

Great commentary Jim -- thanks for posting that!

-f

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Date: Fri, Mar 30, 2001 at 18:04:17 (GMT)
From: moldy warp
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Jim - I'm not arguing with you today!
Message:
Christ Almighty that is a vile piece of literature from Rawat!!!!!
Dear aforesaid Rawat - PLEASE NOTE I am very happy thinking. I like my mind. I am my mind. I like my ego - Christ, I spent enough painful years being a doormat and ego-denying woman in the name of your vile cult. If we didn't have 'complicated' people who thought deeply about war, injustice and global pollution where would we be - We'ed be in la-la land with you. Don't give me your Rousseauesque crap about simplicity.Go read a book you moron!
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Date: Fri, Mar 30, 2001 at 17:40:48 (GMT)
From: Mercedes
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: major mind fuck /brainfarting
Message:
Thanks Jim, I think this guy a totally paranoid and is trying to sell the same wares with different names, colors etc, but in essence the same bullshit. I am mad, really mad at him for his devious ways.
Thanks for making me laugh.
mercedes
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Date: Fri, Mar 30, 2001 at 16:33:54 (GMT)
From: donner
Email: None
To: Cynthia
Subject: Goomraji's Latest Goop...
Message:
m drowns his questions with alcohol and material possessions. his questions must haunt him...poor guy. sounds like self talk to me. don't question anything, just have another drink...and enjoy monica in australia all you can while it lasts.
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Date: Fri, Mar 30, 2001 at 18:25:29 (GMT)
From: Pat Conlon
Email: None
To: donner
Subject: Rev MOONbutt gives up on mindless nirvana
Message:
He has not practiced or realized Knowledge and has steadily down-sized his product for years now until it is all about ''enjoying life and gratitude and not asking any questions.''

Just listen to the Master and feel the old bhakti juju and you'll be all right. The Indian premies would be shocked to see this translated into Hindi.

We need a Hindi version of EPO.

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Date: Fri, Mar 30, 2001 at 20:09:30 (GMT)
From: G
Email: None
To: Pat Conlon
Subject: Hindi version
Message:
I could help with the technicals, like fonts, but we would need someone who can translate to Hindi.
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Date: Fri, Mar 30, 2001 at 20:20:51 (GMT)
From: Pat Conlon
Email: None
To: G
Subject: Hindi version - didn't J-M study Hindi?
Message:
I'm sure we can find a way. Thanks for taking me seriously, G.
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Date: Fri, Mar 30, 2001 at 21:18:48 (GMT)
From: Jean-Michel
Email: None
To: Pat Conlon
Subject: I did, but Charananand came and messed up
Message:
with my Hindi course!

Believe it or not, but my Hindi teacher invited him (after beind invited by a premie Hindi student, Glena I recall, to do so), to have a satsang once instead of one of our Hindi course!

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Date: Fri, Mar 30, 2001 at 21:27:45 (GMT)
From: Pat Conlon
Email: None
To: Jean-Michel
Subject: Hi J-M, any other exes know Hindi?
Message:
I hope your teacher didn't fall for the urug.
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Date: Sat, Mar 31, 2001 at 08:51:53 (GMT)
From: janet
Email: None
To: Pat Conlon
Subject: i did a search for translator sites tonite
Message:
when i posted my reply to the Venusians, below. who says we have to have an ex-p help us translate? the net has no dearth of ways to render a site into another language.
do a search for 'translation websites' and see what pops up.
remember how many languages there are on the indian subcontinent. hindi is only one.
that freak, jagdeo, spoke 9 of them.
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Date: Sat, Mar 31, 2001 at 18:14:29 (GMT)
From: Pat Conlon
Email: None
To: janet
Subject: Hindi can be understood by most northern Indians
Message:
which is where most of the Indian premies are from. The Indian ex-pats are mostly Gujerati and they understand Hindi quite well.
Rev Moontits always gives his Indian satsang in Hindi. A short Hindi intro to EPO is all that is necessary and a few metatags and keywords for search-engines. Most internet savvy Indians probably read English.
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Date: Sun, Apr 01, 2001 at 03:53:26 (GMT)
From: G
Email: None
To: Pat Conlon
Subject: Good points, also
Message:
Those are good points. I wonder if any exes have old DLM publications in Hindi, they could be scanned and put on the site. Maybe one of these other sikh groups would be interested in helping out, that would be weird, eh? My feeling though is that it would be cleaner not to involve them.
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Date: Sun, Apr 01, 2001 at 09:27:37 (GMT)
From: Pat Conlon
Email: None
To: G
Subject: No Sikhs - many are fundamentalist
Message:
It would be like asking Pat Robertson to help us get Rev Moontits Rawat to be declared a satanist. Horrible company to keep.
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Date: Sun, Apr 01, 2001 at 00:13:04 (GMT)
From: Katie H
Email: None
To: Pat Conlon
Subject: Translation sites...
Message:
do not really 'translate' very well. Have you ever tried to take something from say, the French Forum, and use one of those translation sites to understand it? You can get the jist of it, but it's not any kind of translation you can put on line as part of a page.

I'm not meaning to throw cold water on this because I think it is a good idea, but you do need a human translator. And as J-M and the Spanish forum/site people can testify, it's a lot of work.

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Date: Sun, Apr 01, 2001 at 01:44:56 (GMT)
From: Pat Conlon
Email: None
To: Katie H
Subject: Translation...yes, bad. I can do phonetic Hindi
Message:
but I thought it would look nicer in Hindi script. I'll work on something and show it to you.
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Date: Sun, Apr 01, 2001 at 03:27:56 (GMT)
From: G
Email: None
To: Pat Conlon
Subject: Since the translation is a lot of work...
Message:
it might be good to focus on what is most important. I think it would be worth the effort (and money if need be) to go out of our way to get the essentials translated.

One way to handle the Hindi text would be to make image files of the text and put them on the web pages. This is technically simpler but the download would be slower.

Another way is to have the reader pre-download fonts, such as described on this web page:

FONTS FOR DOWNLOAD , which is from sikhnet.com. There are also other fonts there, like Gurbani and Punjabi. But would an Indian premie go out of their way to download fonts so they could see 'negative' information about Rawat?

Another way is to have a Hindi font that is dynamically downloaded. However, the readers web broswer must be set up to handle this, not all browsers will support this.

The most sure fire way is to make images of the text. An important thing with that is to compress the image as much as possible without affecting legibility.

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Date: Sun, Apr 01, 2001 at 03:41:48 (GMT)
From: G
Email: None
To: Pat Conlon
Subject: I have an idea.
Message:
If we can't get a translator, I know people at my work who know Hindi. Maybe someone would be willing to translate. If I had a word processer that supported Hindi, it could be typed in a word processer, then I could convert the text to image files with a graphics program. The only problem is 1) I might have to persuade someone with a little money 2) the word processer could cost quite a bit of money. My understanding is that it is not simply enough to have Hindi fonts in a word processer, the software itself must support Hindi.

So for the Hindi speaking pwks, a question is what to focus on, what information would have the greatest impact? What is a no-no to them?

Many of Rawat's followers speak Hindi but not English. As to how many of them have access to the web and would find the web pages I don't know. Besides English, Spanish, French, and Hindi, there are other languages spoken by pwks, but first things first.

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Date: Sun, Apr 01, 2001 at 09:22:04 (GMT)
From: Pat Conlon
Email: None
To: G
Subject: I have an idea - I'm listening , G
Message:
I'm not a techie so some of what you said is over my head. The Japanese have Japanese script word-processors. If you go to any anime sites you usually have to download a Japanese script program otherwise it looks like Janet's Venutian language above.

The Indian sites don't usually have that and are often written phonetically with a LOT of English - probably because of the British connection.

I don't think much more has to be done than a few metatags and keywords written in phonetic Hindi for Hindi search engines and a short introductory paragraph in phonetc Hindi (with perhaps a graphics rendered Hindi script Headline - it would LOOK nice) detailing Rev Moonbeam Rawat's adultery, meat-eating, drinking and drug-taking.

The Indian premies are VERY conservative. The irony is that what appeared to us to be groovy in the 70s was actually the equivalent of being a born again christian in India.

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Date: Sun, Apr 01, 2001 at 16:51:44 (GMT)
From: G
Email: None
To: Pat Conlon
Subject: phonetic Hindi
Message:
I can ask someone at work about phonetic Hindi and translating. That sounds easier and faster than using Hindi characters. Remind me if I forget.

The content of the current meta tag looks like this:

META NAME='keywords' CONTENT='guru maharaj maharaji cult meditation premie elan vital divine light mission prempal rawat'

IMO this could be enhanced a bit, e.g. maybe by adding prem and knowledge and duo.

The phonetic Hindu keywords could be added to this tag or there could be a separate tag for a another web page that would have a Hindi introduction to the web site. Might want to include the keywords duo, divine, united, organization. Elan Vital's new Indian site is www.duo.org.in and is in English.

The keywords at www.maharaji.org are: Maharaji, Maharaj ji, maharaji, maharaj ji, maharaji.org, Maharaji's message, Mahraji; and Maraji. They forgot miragey and goomiragey. I suppose that 'Mahraji' and 'Maraji' are there because he thinks many premies are so stupid that they can't spell 'Maharaji'. The keywords at in.mahraji.org (the Hindi version) are the same. The keywords at www.elanvital.org are: Elan Vital, Maharaji, Knowledge, and Maharaji's message.

In case we would want to eventually use dynamic fonts, we could do the same thing that was done at maharaji.org and use the same fonts. There's the possibility that some Hindi readers' browsers have already been set up to display the Hindi fonts used.

The Hindi version of maharaji.org uses dynamic font downloading and uses the Chanakya true type font (Chanakya.ttf). There is a fonts help page which says that either IE 4.x or higher or Netscape 4.5 or higher is required. These are the tags used with IE 5.5 (I omitted the less thans and greater thans):

LINK HXBURNED REL='fontdef' SRC='http://in.maharaji.org/fonts/dynamic/cha_in.pfr'

STYLE TYPE='text/css'

!-- $WEFT -- Created by: Webmaster (webmaster@maharaji.org.com) on 10/21/99 --
@font-face {
font-family: Chanakya;
font-style: normal;
font-weight: normal;
src: url(http://in.maharaji.org/fonts/dynamic/CHANAKY0.eot);
}
--

/STYLE

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Date: Sun, Apr 01, 2001 at 17:49:26 (GMT)
From: Pat Conlon
Email: None
To: G
Subject: We'll have to take this conversation up
Message:
Sounds like you're inspired. This thread's about to go so we'll have to talk about it later.
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Date: Fri, Mar 30, 2001 at 13:37:26 (GMT)
From: An undivine troll
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: Re Healing, PTSD and other stuff
Message:
Hi

I have been lurking around here for some time. Sometimes I have laughed, sometimes I have cried, sometimes I have found interesting information and sometimes I have been shocked. That is entertainment.

If there ever was a cult, this is the ultimate cult (And don’t BS that a cult needs a leader).

In this (chat) room people come. If he is a so-called premie, he is an asshole or a troll and if such a person continues to post his or her perspectives  which are  unacceptable posts for the cult, ultimately he or she will be blocked.  Meanwhile he will be attacked by about 50 fighting “sharks”. Fighting for what I don´t know.

If a person “positive” to the cult comes around, he is greeted with “Welcome aboard” “Welcome (-- to the cult)”

This is not about cults. This is about something that happened to me.

A lot of serious and traumatic things happened in my life. Finally I was totally exhausted and burnt out and could not function. So finally I was diagnosed to suffer from Post Traumatic Stress Disorder. (PTSD). I happened to come across a clinical psychologist who had great success in working for people with the same suffering. Her treatment is based upon “neuro feedback” system.

Neuro feedback system was originally created for Nasa to train the mental strength of astronauts and to enable them to cope with difficult situations. Later it was also discovered that it was a good treatment to cure post traumatic symptoms.

If you don’t like Knowledge you should STOP READING HERE.

I started to go to treatment and my therapist is a nice lady. I told her that I meditated and she had some knowledge about that subject. I told her I used to have great experiences, but that meditation was difficult for me now. I also said that I a lot of times experienced a “treasure” within my self, but it appeared to me that the key to open this treasurebox, is a “feeling of gratitude” which in my situation was pretty hard to find. Without knowing what kind of meditation, she actually advised me not to meditate for a while as she said the feeling of “failure” would worsen my situation. She also told that western people “couldn’t meditate because of stress”. She stated that even when people had paid a small fortune to learn to meditate, only about 1 % continued to “practice”

My first training was exiting. Through sensors to the skin you are connected to a computer that measures things happening in your body. First lesson was to teach me how to breathe properly. I should watch a balloon on the screen and when I breathed correctly, the balloon would lift. The only way I could make the bloody balloon to lift, was by doing the third technique. During this lesson you could later read on a diagram for how long period you breathed efficient, inefficient or medium efficient. The lady came and told me “this is the western kind of meditation” She explained that I had some scars and wounds in my being and the theory is that healing happens when a person was breathing properly.

Next time with this training did not work as well, for some reason my pulse was above 100 but my therapist told this might happen when you have post traumatic suffering.

My next training was about my brainwaves. Sensors where connected to my ears and to the back of my head. I was told to lie down, close my eyes, and listen to the headphones. The sound was an imitation of the sounds for a baby in a mother womb. The computer registered 3 different brainwaves and later the therapist could read how I was thinking. She could read the different patterns and I actually again went beyond this sounds and into meditation for a while as I listened to the “sound of silence” M though me, and I think it was really impressive even if there is a long a way to go.

Will it help, I don´t know.

To me this is maybe showing me that if there is a God, he indeed works in mysterious ways. This is also my contribution to the discussion of the so-called “healing process” that some people say is happening here at the Forum. IMHO for instance Jim is the proof that encountering the source of your trauma cannot heal you. Reading this site, I have come to the conclusion that most of the people probably suffer more or less of post traumatic symptoms. That is the only way I can explain the attitude and behaviour here. It seems like many cases are from a textbook. In addition the Forum seems to create an addiction for a lot of people, and as a result, I honestly think the “cult”ivated brain patterns and brainwashing that happen here, will never heal anyone.

Finally as I have kind of studied this place for some time. It is interesting stuff. Pat talks about the churchladies of EV, but appears to be almost nothing but churchladies right here. Due to some research I have found that some of the things that are told here, is correct, and some is nothing but lies.
In my life I have encountered a few manipulative psychopaths and borderliners and “been there, done that” I recognise a few cases here. Don’t throw your admiration for pigs, is my advice.

Hopefully in a process of healing, I just say that personal questions will not be answered. (Actually it is none of your business)

 
An undivine troll

(waiting to be sensored away, but are carefully not saying too much- yet.)

Ps. If I don’t respond to comments about this issue, it is because I am soon going away for a few days.

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Date: Sat, Mar 31, 2001 at 11:39:07 (GMT)
From: janet
Email: None
To: An undivine troll
Subject: Re Healing
Message:
you wrote
I have been lurking around here for some time. Sometimes I have laughed, sometimes I have cried, sometimes I have found interesting information and sometimes I have been shocked. That is entertainment.
.......
without denigrating your process,
we aren't doing this for entertainment. we are doing it to get straight, get the truth, get our right minds back in our own possession. and to help others do same. you are included in those 'others' if you need us.
...................

'If there ever was a cult, this is the ultimate cult (And don't BS that a cult needs a leader).'
by this you seem to mean that there is an 'in crowd' and an 'out crowd' here. I could see why you would say that at times, and if we take the observation to heart, it would only be to remember to be true to our individual assessments and not let anyone else do our thinking for us.the mob mentality can eclipse finer personal perception, so thanks for the tweak of conscience, in any instance when it's a valid reminder.

'In this (chat) room people come. If he is a so-called premie, he is an asshole or a troll and if such a person continues to post his or her perspectives  which are  unacceptable posts for the cult, ultimately he or she will be blocked.  Meanwhile he will be attacked by about 50 fighting 'sharks'. Fighting for what I don´t know.'

:fighting for what, I don't know---
we are fighting for our validity, our rights, for justice, for our individuality back. we were unceasingly harped on to forsake our own minds, our own feelings, our own instincts, our own judgement, our own intelligence, for years. We were insulted. we were guilted. we were held to an impossible standard. we were sleep deprived. we were used like slaves. we were persuaded to act unethically, illegally, immorally,selfishly, thoughtlessly, inconsiderately, insensitively, all against our innate human natures.
we remember how it was done. we can recognize the methods instantly whenever someone brings them around us again. we are protecting ourselves against the things we remember being used to harm us.
if those things harmed us, there is a good chance they are harming others, including those who come here and speak the same words we heard when we were caught in the trap. the frenzy of reaction is a sign of the strength of our recognizing the methods. no one is going to come in here and rebrainwash us to go back to our former state of abuse. we have become too aware, too savvy, too clear, on how it was done.

'If a person 'positive' to the cult comes around, he is greeted with 'Welcome aboard' 'Welcome (-- to the cult)'
[by cult, you mean EPO, here, not EV]
if someone comes here no longer comfortable or completely sold on their membership in the EV/Maharaji cult heirarchy, we welcome them because we each remember when we were at that point. we don't want joiners. we want to help the person reach their own realizations thru their own process. they can leave, come back, post again or not. no one can make another person post. its patently not possible. all we do is put up information and thoughts and feelings. or read others'. no one 'has' to do anything. and if you'll notice, every one of us just offers up our individual thoughts and feelings and the new person is asked sincerely what their view is.

'This is not about cults.'
then why are you accusing us with being another cult of our own?

'This is about something that happened to me.'
you could have presented with that and we would have listened just as readily.

'If you don't like Knowledge you should STOP READING HERE.'
thanks for the warning, but perhaps you misunderstand what we are trying to get to on this site.
we are trying to reach individual states of clarity as to what happened to us with Maharaji, what if any of it was good, what was bad, what we each think was worth retaining and what we feel we need to jettison, and whether there is more that needs to be done, personally and/or as a group.

...' I told her I used to have great experiences, but that meditation was difficult for me now....it appeared to me that the key to open this treasurebox, is a 'feeling of gratitude' which in my situation was pretty hard to find.'
this, right here, speaks of some deep part of yourself, trying to get the message to you that something in your real, deep self knows something is not right. what you are feeling is not gratitude. you are feeling something else, very disturbing, which is serious enough to drive you to therapy.
how is this sense you are experiencing, any different from what moved each of us to leave, or to stop meditating, or to take the step to set down the beliefs we were trying to live, by while declaring ourselves members of Maharaji's organization, and begin to question what exactly had we beme involved in?

...' She stated that even when people had paid a small fortune to learn to meditate, only about 1 % continued to 'practice''
how does her counsel and information differ from ours, here, that the vast majority of people who ever received Knowledge left it behind after some time?

'My first training was exiting.
[boldface mine. is this a typo? interesting freudian slip, if so. did you mean 'exciting'? because you've actually said EXITING .

'...First lesson was to teach me how to breathe properly... The only way I could make the bloody balloon to lift, was by doing the third technique. ... The lady came and told me 'this is the western kind of meditation' She explained that I had some scars and wounds in my being and the theory is that healing happens when a person was breathing properly.'
so first she had you stop meditating for a while and then she had you use plain old biofeedback, devoid of religious trappings or guru worship, in order to focus on your breath.

'Next time with this training did not work as well, for some reason my pulse was above 100 but my therapist told this might happen when you have post traumatic suffering.
i have done an immense amount of study and work on healing methods, and the easiest brief idea i could give you about this is that the body never forgets a trauma, though the conscious mind will actively keep it from awareness, because if it were to stay in the foreground, reacting to life would become impossible and endanger your survival. but it stays in the body, imprinted, complete with emotions, beliefs, fears and devices you put in place, connected to it, to protect you automatically, until such a time as you can create a place, or events create a situation, for it to come to the surface again and communicate to you what it is and what it wants you to do for it to release. you may have to honor it by reliving it all over agian, but slowly, in a different setting, not where it first happened to you. you can trust your own process. you will only be aware of as much as is safe for you to bring forward at any time. it may come in stages.you may need to grieve. you may have memories you have long repressed or denied. you may be preoccupied or distant for awhile, while it is working its way to the surface. it actually hurts more coming out than it did going in, because going in, there wasnt time to do all this. there is time, when it comes out, to grasp it, in all the time it needs. while there is pain, there is awakening and vaster self knowledge coming , too. it is a pain you can embrace in its coming out. because you are reasserting what it was really like. you are reclaiming the truth of what happened to you, breaking the seal and releasing it, not carrying it around inside and covering it up anymore.


'My next training was about my brainwaves.... The sound was an imitation of the sounds for a baby in a mother womb....
and I actually again went beyond this sounds and into meditation for a while as I listened to the 'sound of silence' M taught me.
... The computer registered 3 different brainwaves and later the therapist could read how I was thinking.
...She could read the different patterns
'
here we have a bit of a problem. if this is a good thereapist, she will get past this.
i had a similar EEG done myself when my family wanted to make sure I wasnt a mental case as a result of being in the cult.like you, I found myself not doing what the researcher asked me to do. I went into one of the techniques while wired up and on the table, and although i thought i felt great, the tester became alarmed when i did not respond and do what they were telling me to. I frankly just didn't want to come out of meditation to talk. they told my parents later that i showed evidence of'an anomalous spike pattern' that gave them reason to think i had 'suffered a petit mal seizure' during the test. I had done no such thing. I had basically ignored the tester because i liked 'going into the silence'.
the net result was, they got a false positive reading, because i didn't follow directions, but pulled away into 'Knowledge' instead of focusing where the tester needed me to, to take brainwave readings.
brainwaves come in four flavors: alpha, beta, delta and theta.
alpha is awake but in idle,like staring mindlessly at tv. beta is problem solving, actively using your mind. theta is dropping off to sleep, losing physical world consciousness, and delta is deep, dreamless restorative unconsciousness. you can move back and forth, but can only be in one at a time.

the sounds of the womb were supposed to get you back to the beginning of your life before you were born, so as to begin at the beginning. if you have some traumatic chapter in your memory, the researcher is trying to go back to square zero and work forward to find where it happened to you.
sinking into Knowledge is not going to reset that clock for her or for you. its not cooperating with the landmarks.

' and I think it was really impressive even if there is a long a way to go.
be mindful of the premie trend towards believing that Knowledge is superior to everyone else and trying to show it. I made the same mistake in my EEG. I paid for it with 8 months of locked mental treatment i didnt warrant.

Will it help, I don´t know.

'To me this is maybe showing me that if there is a God, he indeed works in mysterious ways.'
this is yourself,
you are healing you. don't disown it and hand it away to some unknown entity. it is your own self, trying to talk to you from your own depths. You were there when it happened to you and you are here now to listen, if you only will help it come back to you and get out.

' This is also my contribution to the discussion of the so-called 'healing process' that some people say is happening here at the Forum.'
give yourself all the time it takes, and stay with it. talk thru the urges you might get, to run back and take convenient refuge in the crowds and the mass practices. the answer isnt there. the trauma in you, that is crying out to come out, isnt there, and isnt welcome there, either. this thing inside you, the trauma, wants YOU to acknowledge it. it doesnt want someone else's attention. it doesnt want to have cookie cutter propaganda stuffed down its throat to silence its cries, to drive it back down into the darkness of misery and suffering. It wants out. and there is no place for it among the frozen smile Nazi's of EV. Such things threaten and defy their brittle façade.


'IMHO for instance Jim is the proof that encountering the source of your trauma cannot heal you...'
have you encountered the source of YOUR trauma yet? are you healed of yours yet?do you know what it is, yet? I would wait on that pronoucement about Jim until you have gotten to your own!

' Reading this site, I have come to the conclusion that most of the people probably suffer more or less of post traumatic symptoms.
That is the only way I can explain the attitude and behaviour here.
It seems like many cases are from a textbook.
'
perhaps, at the moment, you are pretty much absorbed in working at your own, and that would tend to have you seeing it in everyone and everything. it's normal. but it's not permanent.I wouldn't call it a conclusion. I'd call it a present perception, a reflection of working on understanding your own state.

' In addition the Forum seems to create an addiction for a lot of people,...'
there is excitement, there is attentiveness, there is the daily desire to find out what else has come to light that bears on our past and sheds understanding on our present--but most addictions are destructive substitutes for addressing real life problems where they need to be faced. Jim gets to court, Mike Dettmers flies to London and back, the Donners go on vacation, Everyone one who works goes to work, Pat and Chuck run their restaurant and take care of 5 dogs and a cat...
I don't see anyone here substituting the forum for a real life.
[except for me, of course!lol lol lol]

...' and as a result, I honestly think the 'cult'ivated brain patterns and brainwashing that happen here, will never heal anyone.'
mob mentality anywhere won't--whether its EV or EPO or the KKK. but if you think you see a new mob forming, say so. call it as you see it.


Finally as I have kind of studied this place for some time. It is interesting stuff.

Pat talks about the churchladies of EV, but appears to be almost nothing but churchladies right here.
i have never seen the churchladies of EV argue and roar and hold forth like i see E-P's do here! the rows of the last few days prove it! if you mean the righteous indignation, I 'd say we each have our own collection of beefs we carry, yes.

'Due to some research I have found that some of the things that are told here, is correct, and some is nothing but lies.
we started off just sharing our thoughts. there is speculation, there is baiting, there is new information coming to light as time progresses. we do retract innaccuracies when facts prove us wrong.

'In my life I have encountered a few manipulative psychopaths and borderliners and 'been there, done that.' I recognise a few cases here. Don't throw your admiration for pigs, is my advice.'
[i assume you are meaning to say, 'Don't cast your pearls before swine'. Good advice. Some of us seem to like swine baiting, despite the wisdom offered.Ah, well, to each his own. consider it Rodeo entertainement between acts.]

'Hopefully in a process of healing, I just say that personal questions will not be answered. (Actually it is none of your business)'
you sound very defensive, anticipating things that have not been directed at you. No one can force you to say anything here. But you have already shared some personal things with us, without anyone inquiring of them, and you can always share more when you're ready. Or simply read and not post. Nothing here is compulsory.
 
'An undivine troll

(waiting to be sensored away, but are carefully not saying too much- yet.)'

sounds as if you are fearful of being set upon, because at this point you are not sure what you are. you want to post, you want to relate what's been happening to you, you fear all premies who speak here are going to be attacked, and uniformly censored or ridiculed. you dont want that to happen to you. there is confusion evident in your framing it this way. it seems you may be experiencing confusion as to where you are at, as to what we are about, and as to what EV is about, and whether you will be accepted by any of them, including yourself.

'Ps. If I don't respond to comments about this issue, it is because I am soon going away for a few days.'
you're free to come and go as you please, but be aware that if you are gone several days, your post will move into the inactive and you will not be able to respond to any replies that were posted to you, unless you think to go check the incactive and copy over to the active list.
this is also a convenient and transparent way to throw something up on the wall and dash away before you might become legitimately engaged in dialog with anyone who responds to you here. hit and run, as it were. you have had the courage to speak your first piece. do you have no courage to stay and interact? what do you fear?

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Date: Sat, Mar 31, 2001 at 03:37:13 (GMT)
From: Pat Conlon - I wish you
Email: None
To: An undivine troll
Subject: You are not a troll and I thank you for your post
Message:
Thank you for being honest and straightforward. I hope you realize that I am not being malicious when I make fun and use words like ''church-lady.'' To me laughter is the best medicine.

Yes, I think we have all suffered a bit of PTSD and for me my best therapy is to make jokes and have a bit of fun.

But I also know when to be serious and I read your post seriously because your sincerity is so obvious. Thanks again and I wish you the best in healing yourself.

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Date: Sat, Mar 31, 2001 at 03:13:29 (GMT)
From: Brian Smith
Email: None
To: An undivine troll
Subject: I never came here to heal, I came to talk
Message:
honestly and openly about my experience of what has been going on over the years. And I am no church lady, for the last 20 of my 28 years in, I mainly stayed independant and out of the inner circle, the power trips sickened me.

If you have folllowed my posts and progress over the last 3 months you will get a sense of how my awareness has shifted from apolegetic to awareness.

I got here in Dec and I was convinced that these poor lambs out here has somehow lost their way. I set about trying my best to explain how they should somehow just forgive and forget and let maharaji off of the hook, after all Knowledge wasn't so bad and we did get that.

I am not going to tell you what you should or shouldn't do here regarding your reasons for posting. You seem to have done ample research and have put in the time and effort to inquire.

I looked at the information with an open mind, I studied the other examples of Guru's and mystics who perpetrate the same myths and dole out the same meditation techniques. I reviewed that data against my own experiences and it just did not stack up anymore in favor of continuance.

I have determined that I no longer need a master, I graduated myself from the cult and I am moving forward with my life managing my own destiny both spiritual and otherwise just fine.

Go ahead and meditate if you wish, but don't you somehow feel that what M represents, his hoarded wealth, affairs, drinking, womanizing etc. belies his role as a master, teacher, or otherwise person worthy of your devotion.?

So far the forum has been the only place that I can talk freely about these issues and ask these questions.
Any healing that shows up out of the inquiry is purely a coincidental by-product.

I hope that we can continue the conversation

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Date: Fri, Mar 30, 2001 at 21:03:46 (GMT)
From: Hal
Email: None
To: An undivine troll
Subject: Interesting post - thanks. Nt
Message:
vcnf
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Date: Fri, Mar 30, 2001 at 21:10:26 (GMT)
From: Hal
Email: None
To: troll boy
Subject: ps ever met a certain scandinavian called Bj..nt
Message:
nt
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Date: Sat, Mar 31, 2001 at 16:23:21 (GMT)
From: Katie H
Email: None
To: Hal
Subject: my sentiments exactly, Hal (nt)
Message:
oy veh!
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Date: Sun, Apr 01, 2001 at 12:59:08 (GMT)
From: Hal
Email: None
To: Katie H
Subject: It 's pretty easy to spot ain't it katie ? ot / nt
Message:
Sherlock to watson
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Date: Fri, Mar 30, 2001 at 15:39:32 (GMT)
From: Susan
Email: None
To: An undivine troll
Subject: this isn't a censorable post at all
Message:
Dear Undivine troll,

I do not think you are acting like a troll in the least. I do not think your post should be censored. I do not agree with your post, ( well there may be a few points I do agree with ) but I do not think this place is a cult. I suggest you read 'releasing the bonds' by Steve Hassan if you want to learn more about how to identify a cult.

Erika too, stated her case and was in no way a troll. In fact, many premies have come here and posted and not acted like trolls at all.

I think the difference is the goal. You seem to just want to state your case, and why you dissagree, and even some concern. That isn't 'trolling'....

The goal of a troll is to bait people and upset them and most of all get the max amount of attention. There are trolls on the DISNEY boards, yep, the DISNEY boards. It is just a form of entertainment for some individuals to take potshots at people in cyberspace.

I am making a point not to really get into the content of your post, suffice it to say that if this is a cult, it is doing one rotten job at controlling the thought proccesses of its membership. We can't agree on anything!

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Date: Fri, Mar 30, 2001 at 14:45:05 (GMT)
From: Connie
Email: None
To: An undivine troll
Subject: Re Healing, PTSD and other stuff
Message:
Undivine troll, you said:

'If you don’t like Knowledge you should STOP READING HERE'.......
'Reading this site, I have come to the conclusion that most of the people probably suffer more or less of post traumatic symptoms. That is the only way I can explain the attitude and behaviour here. It seems like many cases are from a textbook. In addition the Forum seems to create an addiction for a lot of people, and as a result, I honestly think the “cult”ivated brain patterns and brainwashing that happen here, will never heal anyone.'

I am not sure what you mean by this, if you have PTSD you are reading here. Do you mean it is ok to read here if you like knowledge?

You said you had been lurking for a long time. If this is your how you see it, are you not in danger of becoming addicted yourself and receiving the same 'cultivated brain patterns and brainwashing that happens here'?

Also:

'Due to some research I have found that some of the things that are told here, is correct, and some is nothing but lies.'

Was your research comprehensive and exhaustive? Where did you get your answers/information from? What are the things that are correct? What are the things that are lies?

You rightly stated that personal questions were none of anyone's business. In the last week, that is what people were standing up for here, personal attacks on people directly related to abuse they had suffered and had courageously posted publically to let others know that this had gone on.

It is stated in the forum introduction that this is an ex-premie forum, and if premies/pwk post they should be prepared to be met with anger and negativity by some. That seems very upfront and honest.

When I started looking here, I went through the archives and IMO premies still posting now, were initially tolerated and listened too, until they crossed the line, and became nasty, or led those here on a wild goose chase. A lot of these posts had nothing to do with the forum's stated purpose, they were personal attacks. No one is saying they are saints here, therefore when so confronted I find it normal behaviour for people to try to defend against such attacks. So I don't really understand your comment:

'If he is a so-called premie, he is an asshole or a troll and if such a person continues to post his or her perspectives which are unacceptable posts for the cult, ultimately he or she will be blocked. Meanwhile he will be attacked by about 50 fighting “sharks”. Fighting for what I don´t know.

If a person “positive” to the cult comes around, he is greeted with “Welcome aboard” “Welcome (-- to the cult)”

To finish with, what you term 'positive', I see as keeping on topic of what the forum is intended for, as well, a cult deprogramming tool for those who want it.

Respectfully.

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Date: Fri, Mar 30, 2001 at 20:39:58 (GMT)
From: Chuck Sprague
Email: None
To: Connie
Subject: Thank you, Connie, well said.
Message:
I'm glad you posted this, you said pretty much everything I would have liked to have said.

It's ironic when premies post here, all upset that negative things are being said about M., and they feel we are unjust because they can't come here and praise M. without being critisized. I mean, the site IS calle ''Ex-Premie.org'' How many clues do they need? That is the topic, after all.

And thank you for so rightly pointing out that plenty of Premies do post here and disagree with us, without being ''banned''. Some have been posting here for years.

I think many of the Premies who post here do feel ''attacked'' when people here disagree with them, because it's such a contrast to the sycronized premie world, where debate is not encouraged. To disagree with a Premie's beliefs is often percieved by them as an attack on them.

The only people who get ''banned'' here are Trolls, because they do not debate, but only try to heckle and disrupt debate. Such people have often been tolerated here for far too long, in IMO.

If premies feel that somethings said here are outright lies, they could spell it out for us, tell us exactly what the problem is, so we can fix it, not just accuse us of lying and then run off. There is a great respect here for the truth and facts. The truth will always hold up to scrutiny, and what we are doing here is srcutinizing. If we are wrong about something, then lets talk about it, to get it right. I too, would like to know more about this poster's ''reseach'' (I hate to use the name ''Undivine Troll'', because I have yet to see that this person is a Troll. They shouldn't assume we think so).

It's kind of funny when Premies post here claiming ''No one should read this site, it's bad for you'', then run off. After all, they are reading it. And nobody has to come here if they don't like it. I found it confronting and uncomfortable in the begining, but ultimately that was helpful. There is so much information on the rest of the site as well, the forum is just a small part of it.

- Chuck, who does not see all premies as ''the enemy''.

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Date: Fri, Mar 30, 2001 at 14:36:36 (GMT)
From: gerry
Email: None
To: An undivine troll
Subject: Not a bad post, on the whole...
Message:
Looks like you're on the way out of the cult. I don't want to frighten you but you are showing all the signs.

Did you ever stop to consider that your PTSD was possibly caused (at least in part) by your involvement with rawat?

You say some of the information here is 'nothing but lies.' Could you clarify? And how much confidence do you have in your own research? Is it correct? Is your information from other cult members or people outside the cult who, presumably would be more objective?

And lastly, if K is so powerful and cleansing or healing why are you such a mess?

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Date: Fri, Mar 30, 2001 at 05:42:13 (GMT)
From: Babs
Email: ralphie@ralphiescafe.com
To: Katie D. and Richard
Subject: On The Sun but not completely OT
Message:
You both wanted to know in what issue of The Sun magazine my writing had appeared. I blush to admit that it was a very short piece, indeed, after they edited it, but it did appear in the 'Readers Write' section, July 1999, Issue 283.

As I am sure you know, The Sun encourages submissions from its readers each month on subjects chosen by the magazine. Here's their invitation, and I quote, 'Readers Write asks readers to address subjects on which they're the only authorities. Topics are intentionally broad in order to give room for expression.Writing style isn't as important as thoughtfulness and sincerity.'

Kind of like the Forum, huh? The month my submission was published, the subject was Privacy. Here's the edited version, just as it appeared. See if you can guess which 'cult' I was referring to:

In my early twenties, I joined a religious cult and quickly learned what a luxury privacy really is. My life consisted of communal work and meals and nights spent in dormitory-style sleeping quarters. I was never alone, except in meditation, where we were required to cover ourselves completely with a sheet lest an uninitiated person catch a glimpse of us practicing the cult's secret techniques.

In that makeshift chamber only slightly larger than the confines of my skin, I wept, dreamed, drooled, and heard voices. I saw roses blooming in winter and fields of diamonds stretching to infinity. I also clawed at my hands and arms until they bled, and pulled out my eyebrows and eyelashes with my fingernails. I was both engulfed in love and drowning in self-hatred.

The avowed purpose of this practice - extreme communality alternated with periods of solitary confinement - was the destruction of personality. It probably would have worked had I not sabotaged it by keeping a journal. I called it 'my memory,' and in it I wrote down everything that was too wonderful or too terrible to say out loud. That journal is what saved me.

Barbara Johnson
Denver, Colorado

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Date: Fri, Mar 30, 2001 at 16:55:42 (GMT)
From: Joy
Email: None
To: Babs
Subject: A Message from Katie D.
Message:
Hi Babs. Katie D's away for awhile, but I forwarded your post to her via e-mail as I thought she'd like to see it. She was delighted and asked me to forward the following comment to you:

'Katie Darling says thank you, she loved your article, and she hopes your lashes and brows have grown back!'

I loved it too, BTW. I subscribed to The Sun for a year or two and Readers Write was always my favorite section.

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Date: Fri, Mar 30, 2001 at 15:15:59 (GMT)
From: Neighbor Gregg
Email: None
To: Babs
Subject: Journaling: OT
Message:
Great short pithy piece. The joys of journaling! Do you still keep a journal? I have several of them I wrote in while in my twenties, including some satsang to myself, I'm afraid. But some cool stuff in there, too. I'll have to dig 'em up again.

I keep a sporadic journal of stuff about my daughter which I'll give to her some day. Yesterday I took her skiing at Copper where she developed a passion for speed...that's what skiing's all about, really. Nice views, but if you really want to commune with nature, go x-country.

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Date: Fri, Mar 30, 2001 at 12:20:52 (GMT)
From: Jerry
Email: None
To: Babs
Subject: Not OT at all!
Message:
Very ON topic Babs. Very, VERY on topic. Thanks for sharing it.
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Date: Fri, Mar 30, 2001 at 10:55:32 (GMT)
From: carol
Email: None
To: Babs
Subject: Love your writing! and hello nt
Message:
smiling
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Date: Fri, Mar 30, 2001 at 09:11:18 (GMT)
From: Pat Conlon
Email: None
To: Babs
Subject: NOT OT: Thank the muses you kept that journal
Message:
Reading that article, I got such a strong whiff of the only time I spent living in a western ashram and it sent a shudder up my spine. The ashram experiment was definitely ''cult'' to the max.

A month after I got K I nearly died of peritonitis from a burst appendix and had emergency surgery. Afterwards my marriage was not the same. It was like I had woken up from a dream.

I was living in Glasgow and asked Glen Whittaker if I could move into the ashram. He was kind enough to let me stay there for a month until he told me I had to go back to my wife as she was pregnant.

(Thanks Glen. You were very kind in those days and also very open and honest and sweet. What happened to turn you into the man who writes lies for Rev MOONbutt Rawat?)

No matter how sweet the vibe in the ashram was, I can remember feeling violated by the lack of privacy. I had lived in communes before but it could not compare. I probably had the same amount of lack of privacy in both situations at least physically but in the ashram I often felt like my mind was being fucked without vaseline. Ouch.

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Date: Fri, Mar 30, 2001 at 06:01:23 (GMT)
From: Francesca
Email: None
To: Babs
Subject: Love you, Babs
Message:
Keep writing it down and telling it like it is!

Please!

--f

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Date: Fri, Mar 30, 2001 at 06:00:06 (GMT)
From: Richard
Email: None
To: Babs
Subject: On The Sun - definitely ON topic Babs
Message:
Everytime I read your posts they transport me to the time and place you are writing about. Personally I'm glad to remember some of those times with a bit of humor and humility. I see a novel or screenplay in your future similar to the memoir-ish Almost Famous. Thanks for retrieving that piece you wrote for The Sun and I'm glad your journals were spared.
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Date: Sat, Mar 31, 2001 at 02:58:57 (GMT)
From: Roy
Email: None
To: Babs
Subject: journal generosity
Message:
Babs,
reading this is why I like your posts - and the sun. i appreciate
you giving us a peek under your meditation blanket, and
reminding us of the less than PC ashram period.( I could not
would not join - hence a 2nd class premie. ) perhaps being
closer to the fire- people were cooked ( and consumed ) earlier.
Roy- who spent to many half baked years in the cult.
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Date: Fri, Mar 30, 2001 at 04:40:24 (GMT)
From: Tony(Aussi Ji)
Email: paris@ozemail.com.au
To: Everyone
Subject: nedd help from exes married to premies
Message:
G'day all,
I am married to a practising premie who is a local contact.When i exed late last year everything seemed ok.We decided to tolerate each others'point of view.
Unfortunately this is not working out so well now.My wife is involved a lot with premies and aspirants and Elan Vital.She is also on First Class(confidential Elan Vital email)When I outed a few weeks ago,EV were on to her immediately,as I could have leaked important info.Whilst I had the freedom to go onto first classs and spy,I chose not to.Any info I shared on this site was via convesations I had with my wife or other premies.
Elan Vital suggested she change her password,so I would'nt be able to access it.I have to say the lady who rang was very nice about it.It was not like the Gastapo.
Anyway my wife doesn't wish to hear about the ex premie site at all anymore.
There is a certain amount of resentment coming from this situation (both sides)
So there must be other exes out there in the same situation as me.Maybe you can tell me how you have handled this yourselves

Cheers Tony.

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Date: Sat, Mar 31, 2001 at 05:13:46 (GMT)
From: Pat Conlon
Email: None
To: Tony(Aussi Ji)
Subject: God, I wish I could help you, Tony
Message:
It was the other way around for me. I became a church-lady and the wife walked away. She never liked or trusted Rawat. The cult drove a wedge between us and years of bitterness and battles over my son.

I ended up hating her because she hated Rawat and could not see what a wonderful person she was. I am just about to write her a letter and apologise for the pain that I caused he over the past 28 years.

I wish you well.

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Date: Sat, Mar 31, 2001 at 20:54:35 (GMT)
From: Tony(Aussi Ji)
Email: parisw@ozemail.com.au
To: Pat Conlon
Subject: God, I wish I could help you, Tony
Message:
G'day Pat,
Thanks mate and good luck with your letter.I am sure she will like the apology.

Cheers Tony.

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Date: Fri, Mar 30, 2001 at 17:30:23 (GMT)
From: Moldy Warp
Email: None
To: Tony(Aussi Ji)
Subject: Tony - tried to Email you
Message:
but got netzip download demon and then another box said 'specified server cannot perform operation'. Will try again later, or failing that, post something here. I am in a kindof similar situation No easy answers. More later, here or by Email (have you another address??) Love Moldy
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Date: Sat, Mar 31, 2001 at 20:38:42 (GMT)
From: Tony(Aussi Ji)
Email: parisw@ozemail.com.au
To: Moldy Warp
Subject: Woops!I stuffed up.here is my correcr
Message:
email address.Sorry.

Tony.

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Date: Sat, Mar 31, 2001 at 20:04:12 (GMT)
From: Tony(Aussi Ji)
Email: paris@ozemail.com.au
To: Moldy Warp
Subject: G'day Moldy,My email address should
Message:
be ok.Try it again.

Cheers Tony.

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Date: Fri, Mar 30, 2001 at 16:29:51 (GMT)
From: donner
Email: None
To: Tony(Aussi Ji)
Subject: nedd help from exes married to premies
Message:
hi tony...not my situation of course...years ago, my partner was really pissed while i was still involved (towards the end game). difficult times.

total honesty is always the best answer in every partnership in my view. as you change your partner will have to adjust and visa versa...the law of relationships. focusing on yourself and making the changes you need to for yourself is the best of course...and will model the honesty to the other. whatever feeling come up as you move further away from the cult own them competely and never blame he for what you are feeling...but express your feelings as they happen...as information to someone you care about and try to 'wonder' about your feeling together...almost as if they were someone else's. make any sense?

good move not to use the password etc. let that be her domain and give her space...she will appreciate that most of all.

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Date: Sat, Mar 31, 2001 at 20:10:16 (GMT)
From: Tony(Aussi Ji)
Email: paris@ozemail.com.au
To: donner
Subject: nedd help from exes married to premies
Message:
G'day Mike,
I haven't had a chance to thank you for your invaluable contribution to this forum.Thank you .
Thank you for your imput re my marital problem.Fortunately in the last couple of days the dust has settled and things are looking ok again.

Cheers Tony.

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Date: Fri, Mar 30, 2001 at 15:19:17 (GMT)
From: Katie H.
Email: None
To: Tony(Aussi Ji)
Subject: nedd help from exes married to premies
Message:
Hi Tony -
Obviously, I'm not an ex married to a premie, but I know a couple of women who are. It's a difficult situation. Both of their husbands are as active in EV as your wife is.

I think Tonette gave you some great advice - it's important that the marriage - if you wish to save it - come before either of your feelings about Maharaji. This is how the women I know have handled it - they were lucky in that their husbands were cooperative and wanted to stay married. Your decision NOT to use your wife's First Class password is an example of this. Your marriage is far more important than anything you might have gained by doing that.

You wrote:
Anyway my wife doesn't wish to hear about the ex premie site at all anymore.

One of the women I know made a deal with her husband that if she could talk about the ex-premie site, he could talk about his feelings about Maharaji for an equal length of time. She didn't really LIKE this, but recognized it as fair. And then he didn't feel as pressured by her. This seemed to help a bit.

I imagine your wife is under pressure from the local community too - let's hope they will learn to accept the situation gracefully.

Take care, Tony -
Katie H.

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Date: Sat, Mar 31, 2001 at 20:19:48 (GMT)
From: Tony(Aussi Ji)
Email: paris@ozemail.com.au
To: Katie H.
Subject: nedd help from exes married to premies
Message:
G'day Katie,
Thank you for your kind words.Fortunately things are looking better(much better) again.Since the change of password the dust has settled and things are back to normal again.WE have been married for 24 years so there is a very strong bond there and we will survive,as we have always talked a lot about things and problems.She is a lady who will not let the sun set on a problem,whereas I can get the shits and want to sulk for awhile.She has never allowed me to do that.Thank christ for that.
Thanks again Katie.

Cheers Tony.

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Date: Fri, Mar 30, 2001 at 15:16:40 (GMT)
From: magnolia
Email: None
To: Tony(Aussi Ji)
Subject: make more love, not war!
Message:
tony-

i am neither an ex or married, but i have posted a couple of times in the past regarding my premie fiancee. i have become a regular reader of this forum as a result of finding out just what my man has been involved in for the last 30 years. at first i naively supposed that the revelations in this website would shock, repulse and finally free him from his connection to m. no such luck. i then decided to rarely talk to him about m, but i found that my continuing interest in the forum (better than a soap opera!) began to feel like an illicit affair, a dirty secret that i was hiding. he, also, quit telling me when he was going to videos, like m. was his chick on the side. in the past few weeks, i have tried to re-open the dialogue, and have tried to look at it as a weird cultural phenomenon - you guys have convinced me that it is a cult, of course, but i try to suspend all disbelief when talking to him about his premie friends, his premie history, his videos, et cetera. he tells me about m.'s fabulous breathing revelations, and i smile and go, oh yes, breathing is so important, i belong to the heartbeat worshipping faction myself. i have tried to get him to laugh about it all, and talk about my old fundamentalist christian days, and remind him that we didn't have darshan but we got 'slain in the spirit' and got as blissed out and saw as much light as anybody. i keep trying to demonstrate that yes, all of this really happens to you, but that it happens to other people in other ways. anyway, i say, find common ground, avoid arguments without keeping too many secrets, try not to proselytize her into the ex world, and keep your sense of humor!! love is more important than dogma - make love, not war!

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Date: Sat, Mar 31, 2001 at 20:25:30 (GMT)
From: Tony(Aussi Ji)
Email: parisw@ozemail.com.au
To: magnolia
Subject: make more love, not war!
Message:
G'day Magnolia,
Thank you for your kind words.You are in a very unusual situation youself.Good luck.

Cheers tony.

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Date: Fri, Mar 30, 2001 at 15:07:47 (GMT)
From: salam
Email: None
To: Tony(Aussi Ji)
Subject: nedd help from exes married to premies
Message:
Aussiji

It is all part of the process of getting free. You decided what you wanted and you have to accept the result.

But is it worth it to break your family for haramaji? I don't think so.

So what if EV called her and said this or that. And so what if she is a premie or not. Look at what both of you have together.

Me, I will take her out and get some liquer in her then talk...:)

But then, don't take my word for it.

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Date: Fri, Mar 30, 2001 at 17:17:24 (GMT)
From: Sandy
Email: None
To: salam
Subject: alcohol as therapy and communication tool
Message:
Me, I will take her out and get some liquer in her then talk...:)
-salam

Salam,

I have never been a big drinker, we don't keep a bar in the house, just a bottle of blackberry brandy and some banana rum which was a gift....a six-pack of some good beer (Samuel Smith) or a bottle of wine maybe once a month. But I must agree with you that on occasion, some alcoholic drink can be very therapeutic and open up some channels of conversation and honesty that would not open otherwise. Nothing is evil in itself, but for how we use it. And although alcohol has been abused forever, it is still a good way to break the ice, if not abused. Even getting loaded has its virtues in the right setting.

So on this matter I must agree with you. Cheers!

Sandy

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Date: Sat, Mar 31, 2001 at 11:12:09 (GMT)
From: salam
Email: None
To: Sandy
Subject: Say that to Tony
Message:
Really I don't drink, as am on medication. But every now and then I find my self drunk. Don't know how it happens. Though I regret it after. But I agree. I think Tony has been ignoring the misses and he needs to make amends.
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Date: Fri, Mar 30, 2001 at 14:31:00 (GMT)
From: Sandy
Email: None
To: Tony(Aussi Ji)
Subject: nedd help from exes married to premies
Message:
I am married to a practising premie who is a local contact.When i exed late last year everything seemed ok.We decided to tolerate each others'point of view. Unfortunately this is not working out so well now. My wife is involved a lot with premies and aspirants and Elan Vital. She is also on First Class (confidential Elan Vital email)When I outed a few weeks ago,EV were on to her immediately,as I could have leaked important info. Whilst I had the freedom to go onto first classs and spy,I chose not to. Any info I shared on this site was via conversations I had with my wife or other premies. Elan Vital suggested she change her password, so I would'nt be able to access it. I have to say the lady who rang was very nice about it. It was not like the Gastapo. Anyway my wife doesn't wish to hear about the ex premie site at all anymore. There is a certain amount of resentment coming from this situation (both sides) So there must be other exes out there in the same situation as me. Maybe you can tell me how you have handled this yourselves. -Tony

Hey Tony,

Although I am not an official card carrying ex-premie, I am and have been in sympathy with the movement because of a few very profound examples of abuse of power presented here.

When I first heard the first big 'drip' (as you put it here) and felt it on my head, I told my wife about it. I tried to present the information as objectively and calmly as I could. But the moment she picked up on the fact that the bottom line of what I was saying would put Maharaji in question in any way, she shut down and got angry, accusing me of allowing myself to get brainwashed by this site. She doesn't want to hear a thing from here....devotion or denial or both mixed together, I don't know.

We had other mid-life things happening about the same time, which insured that with the present mindset, this stage of our lives would be no walk in the park. Even if all the other issues got fixed, I really feel that this issue about my questioning Maharaji or anything about him would still be a major sticking point with my wife. So I am just being civil and not bringing it up anymore to her.

I have no idea what she has told other premies in the area or if she has communicated anything to EV directly about me, but I really cannot care about that. Shakespeare said 'to thine own self be true and then you won't be false to anyone else' and that is my goal. I am sad that we can't wake up at 3:00 am and just chat anymore about whatever either of us has on our minds like we did when we first met. Very sad. We have two teenage sons who pick up on the whole thing.

I am trying to remember the story in The Aquarian Gospel by Levi Dowling, of how Jesus told a woman devotee whose husband did not like him what to do. He said she should be a good devotee but stay with her husband, be a good and devoted wife, and never mention Jesus' name to her husband. In that way over time, Jesus in his wisdom said that the husband would get a taste of God's Love through his wife. So even though the roles and the situation are not the same, I hope you get what I am trying to say. Whatever we believe or don't believe, just to share quiet, non-confrontational love with someone you don't see eye-to-eye with can be very therapeutic.

Happy trails,

Sandy

PS Simple things like doing the dishes or cooking a meal can rack up alot of mileage to show you still care by your actions, when words fail.

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Date: Sat, Mar 31, 2001 at 20:43:36 (GMT)
From: Tony(Aussi Ji)
Email: parisw@ozemail.com.au
To: Sandy
Subject: nedd help from exes married to premies
Message:
G'day Sandy

Thanks mate.

Cheers Tony.

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Date: Fri, Mar 30, 2001 at 16:12:50 (GMT)
From: salam
Email: None
To: Sandy
Subject: nedd help from exes married to premies--ot
Message:
hey Sandy,

that was a good reply down below, I like it. Sorry about the slug, did not really mean it.

Am sure that'll save you one step!!

Salam waiting for a rope.

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Date: Fri, Mar 30, 2001 at 10:13:26 (GMT)
From: Tonette
Email: None
To: Tony(Aussi Ji)
Subject: Each situation is a little different
Message:
Hello. Greetings from Maryland.
I was an ex for many years living with a premie. He was by no stretch of the imagination as involved as your wife. All he wanted was a yearly 'fix' of darshan and his hour of meditation. Sounds reasonable.....right?
Well, his premie status did at times cause resentment and friction between us. I would of gone ballistic had he ever wanted to send money to either M or EV but he never pressed it. I remember being extremely hurt and annoyed on several occassions. Once when he took a week and left me, our 7 year old son and 2 year old daughter so he could spend what should have been our vaction time and money to see the fat fraud in England. Another memorable moment was the time he took off the last 4 days of our vacation at the beach so he could attend several 'programs' that were nearby featuring you know who. I was 6 months pregnant at the time and our son was 5. Nice guy, eh?
Well the fact of the matter is he is and was. He's been a wonderful father and at times a wonderful husband and I have to admit I do love him. But......
I would caution you to make it very clear to your wife certain understandings that are not negotiable. Mainly, your relationship with her and your marriage should be more important than anything that M or EV might ask of her. Do you have children if that is not too personal of a question? Because that does change the situation some. I feel for you because it is not easy and I didn't even have a spouse that was all that involved. It just pissed me off often to see him giving any crediability to M whom by that time I had no doubt was an evil man. I held my tongue alot and there came a time, fairly quickly, when we avoided talking about it. I was not going to change him. Life went on.
It surprises me to see you take such a cavalier attitude about EV involving itself in your household. Not the gestapo? Worse!
HOW DARE THEY INTERFER BETWEEN YOU AND YOUR WIFE!!!!
By the way, what are they hiding? But does it surprise you when you had mahatamas and initiators telling married people they should divorce and join the ashram? Pregnant women they should consider abortion?
I would like to add more but I am way out of time. Just don't let your guard down concerning EV. Set some ground rules with her regarding her involvement, be patient and get ready to hold your tongue on ocassion.
Hope this helps. I wish you luck. You are gonna need it.

Kind regards
Tonette

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Date: Sat, Mar 31, 2001 at 20:35:27 (GMT)
From: Tony(Aussi Ji)
Email: parisw@ozemail.com.au
To: Tonette
Subject: Each situation is a little different
Message:
G'day Tonette,
Than you for your imput.Fortunately the dust has settled and things are ok again.I think because we have been married for 24 years and have raised a daughter and now raising a teenage son we have been through a lot together.We will work it out I am certain.Lately,since my exing,I have been much more tolerent of things in general.This new found peace and freedom is helping as well.

Cheers Tony.

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Date: Thurs, Mar 29, 2001 at 20:12:50 (GMT)
From: Katie H.
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: Pat C - the new revisionism?
Message:
You wrote:
Currently I am being bombarded by premies in real life to buy into this new revisionsism and so I am particularly sensitive to this issue at present.

Can you elaborate? I'm guessing this is something worth talking about. Most of us don't have all that much 'real-life' contact with involved current premies, so would like to hear what you have to say.

Thanks,
Katie

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Date: Thurs, Mar 29, 2001 at 21:00:17 (GMT)
From: Pat Conlon
Email: None
To: Katie H.
Subject: the new revisionism - I will address this later
Message:
As I was thinking about talking about this in detail, I realised that I have to be careful to write it so as not to identify anybody. I will have to tread carefully as I do not believe in blaming the church-ladies. They are sincere and are being manipulated by the ''businessmen'' such as...well. Let me write about it later. but thanks for bringing it up.
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Date: Fri, Mar 30, 2001 at 02:16:46 (GMT)
From: Pat Conlon
Email: None
To: Pat Conlon
Subject: OK, Katie, here it is
Message:
Hi Katie,

I'm just sitting down for the first time today. I had a lot of work to do today and couldn't answer you sooner but I'm glad that I had a bit of time to think about it before I did.

First let me say that I don't believe that any premies are to blame except maybe the ''businessmen'' (like Glen Whittaker whose name appears as an officer of a company doing business with EV) and I have received no pressure from them because I don't know many of them and I am a nonentity in their eyes.

And the local CC, the instructor and two EV honchos (whom I have named here before) stopped pressuring me because they saw me go through my disillusionment over the period of a year and know that it is useless to attempt to sway me once I have made up my mind. They have also been instructed not to put anything into writing and always request ''face to face'' meetings which I have declined.

Some of the pressure has been anonymous email or email from people I do not know. When I first started posting here I got a lot of email from supposed lurkers who said they also still enjoyed K but were not in a cult. I at first felt elated that they contacted me but eventually I began to see that they were pushing the new revisionism: ''Yes, there is a cult but the premies created it and M and K are great.'' I stopped responding.

Then, soon after I posted my first essay about bhakti juju, the mail became really obnoxious - just like the stuff that gets posted here by the trolls. I started deleting them without opening especially after I got a few 25K emails which I deleted immediately in case they were viruses. This stuff has continued unabated and as soon as you block it the sender's address is changed.

(So, if anybody whom I don't know is thinking of emailing me, please mention it here first as I will delete it. I only open mail from people I know.)

Anyway all of this was annoying and probably wound me up to the point where I over-reacted to the trolls here - especially the one that sucked up to us first and turned out to be a hoax. I hated myself for falling for that because it had already happened via email a couple of times. This stuff is all meant to intimidate and frighten.

But the real pressure has been from premies whom I have known for 20 to 30 years in South Africa, UK, Eire and US. Three people whom I regard as friends are instructors. I have had friendships and/or ''relationships'' with them that were some of the strongest bonds I ever formed. It is like emotional blackmail.

One of them (I have known her for 30 years and received K with her when we both lived in the same commune) feels totally betrayed and devastated as she regarded me as her inspiration. She is a EV church-lady in Ireland and has become adept at the new revisonism.

Another one is someone whom I brought to K and through whom I met Chuck. He is now a CC and moves in the industrial strength church-lady circles. He is the one who sends me daily emails to be ''grateful.'' He also has AIDS and may not have long to live and I do not want to alienate him completely.

I can't cut these people out of my life. They are being manipulated by the EV spin-doctors and really do not see that they are in a cult. They love Rawat and do not realize that HE is the cult. Without him it would simply be a church. To me that's the difference between a church and a cult. A cult is a PERSONALITY cult and has a leader.

But it has mostly been the email from ''well-wishers'' whom I do not know that made me feel that there was a planned conspiracy. I know I am a nonentity in the eyes of EV but I also know that I have stirred up shit with my writing all through my adult life and I seem to have incurred their wrath with my bhakti juju posts here.

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Date: Fri, Mar 30, 2001 at 06:13:28 (GMT)
From: Katie H
Email: None
To: Pat Conlon
Subject: Patrick, thanks for telling us!
Message:
I really appreciate it. I was not happy to hear the story about the revisionist e-mails, and even less happy to hear about the harassing ones. I wonder if this is happening to anyone else on here? It really makes me angry that you were/are beubg harrassed like this.
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Date: Fri, Mar 30, 2001 at 08:48:52 (GMT)
From: Pat Conlon
Email: None
To: Katie H
Subject: I am ''grateful'' for the delete button
Message:
I stopped reading the divine spam weeks ago and then the trolls started here with hanuman following me around posting Aleister Crowley stuff like ''Immorality is immortality'' or ''Let do what thou wilt be the whole of the law.'' It drained me for a while and then it made me angry. Hey I'm an a card carrying bleeding heart liberal do-gooder and that stuff just sounds so ''teenage male on crack'' to me - ugly and dumb. I'm glad it's gone. Must thank the FA.
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Date: Fri, Mar 30, 2001 at 05:23:07 (GMT)
From: Francesca
Email: None
To: Pat Conlon
Subject: Tell the truth and shame the Scamster!
Message:
Yes dear Pat, you can sure stir up de shit.

Just put some filters on that e-mail program. I'm so glad that I have been disinvolved for so many years, and those I know that are involved are not at all surprised to know that I am getting outspoken about it.

They've known me for too many years, and I always get around to rebellion sooner or later.

'We won't get fooled again.'
==The Who

Yeah, we can hope, and take affirmative moves to keep our eyes open and to keep our brains from turning to cotton candy fluff. We actually used to call people 'fluffy' who exhibited the signs of fuzzy logic in the early seventies, before I received K. Didn't learn and became a fuzzball myself to ease the pain, and got a whole lot more pain in the bargain. Drugs and cults don't ease the pain in the end. The just leave you with a different kind of pain, and a hangover.

Burp. Love 'ya, f

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Date: Fri, Mar 30, 2001 at 05:00:29 (GMT)
From: Gregg
Email: None
To: Pat Conlon
Subject: Pudding Proof
Message:
Pat, thanks so much for your last two big posts. I was floored, really, to come face to face with what it means to be faithful to Guru Maharaj Ji in these last sad days of the cult. (Not that the cult won't last for a few more decades...we boomers will certainly yield a few octogenarians...)

I was always on the fringes, but in thrall to bhakti juju as much as those truly in the know.

In the end, cults are the responsibility of those who know better. If the masses are told that the master is divine, they will so believe. It is in our nature, as humans, to believe.

I am not bitter. My life was not destroyed by the cult. But some lives were. And it is not our fault for believing; it is their fault for deceiving.

It is Maharaji's fault, and it is the fault of all who did not alert the masses. ALTHOUGH it may be the case that they were as deceived as the rest of us because of their dysfunctional upbringing and they needed to believe...so where does it end?

With M, of course. He is not omniscient, but neither is he stupid. He knows what is going on. And does nothing. Some God.

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Date: Fri, Mar 30, 2001 at 08:41:05 (GMT)
From: Pat Conlon
Email: None
To: Gregg
Subject: better late than never/ I am very ''grateful''
Message:
I put my own involvement down to ignorance. I did not know anything about Shri Hans' heretical form of guruism which led to his messianism. It would not hav emeant much to me 30 years ago anyway. I was a burnt out desperate acid-head.

Slowly I straightened my mind out and attributed it to K and Rev MOONbutt. (I'm playing with variations of ''moon'' nowadays to draw attention to the similarities with that other cult.)

Right now, when I get those reminders to be ''grateful'' I answer: ''Oh but I am grateful. I am grateful that I was taught Shakespeare in school AND that I undertood it unlike the majority of my class-mates. I am grateful that I was introduced to opera AND I am grateful that I enjoy it unlike most others who hear it. I am grateful that I got K AND enjoy it more than most of the lazy bums who call themselves PWKs. Yes I am very grateful that I met Rev MOONbeam and fell for the bhakti juju because I learned a lot about my own imagination from it AND i'm really grateful that I finally realized that things around him were getting worse NOT better.''

The funny thing is the PWKs feel that the new non-cult church is better than the old Hindu cult. They don't see that it is worse, more duplicitous, sneaky, revisionist, conspiratorial and cold and calculating.

I have been reluctant to talk about the divine Borg spam that I have received by email because it did upset me and I can't pretend that I was not nervous. I'm glad I said and got it out but the last few weeks here have drained me having to deal with divine/mad? trolls that sounded the same as the fanatics emailing me.

I'm pooped. And it's tax time with a foot of forms to check before sending them off.

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Date: Thurs, Mar 29, 2001 at 18:50:34 (GMT)
From: Forum Admin
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: Amaroo
Message:
We have received the following brief report from Amaroo, from a person who wishes to remain anonymous for the time being:

'I have done service at Amaroo recently. Whilst some people are having a quiet good time, others have

1. Mutineed against an overbearing manager.

2. Had a complete psychological collapse - i.e. nervous breakdown (one of Amaroo's founders).

3. Are on medication to cope with the stress and dysfunctionality (a senior manager).

Also, the PR Team is bracing for an ex-premie onslaught around event time.

M arrives onsite tomorrow. '

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Date: Thurs, Mar 29, 2001 at 20:58:18 (GMT)
From: Tony(Aussi Ji)
Email: None
To: Forum Admin
Subject: My best mate works at Amaroo
Message:
When I say best mate,unfortunately that is on hold now that I am an ex.He is struggling to raise a family on the little wage he is payed at Amaroo.I hope when this whole shitheap collapses he is ok.I will be there for him naturally.

Cheers Tony.

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Date: Thurs, Mar 29, 2001 at 19:47:48 (GMT)
From: Brian
Email: brian@ex-premie.org
To: Forum Admin
Subject: Amaroo: a monument to self-sacrifice
Message:
My heart goes out to the people who are having it all fall in on them at once, and I hope that they have someone around them that can give them sane support (ie, family, non-cult friends, etc).

I know that some of the people who have poured their efforts and hearts into Amaroo, and into the utopian vision that it represents to them, have posted here on the forum. While there's always talk around the forum about bringing Rawat down, little attention is paid to the end-result when it finally happens - thousands of people getting a shocking wake-up call at the same time, and the traumatic emotional damage they're left with.

I've seen posts here to the effect that after the fall, the site and forums won't be needed anymore, and everyone will wander off chanting, 'We won! We're number One!'.

That's not going to be the case. Instead there will be an even greater need for support to those people who are standing in the shoes we left behind.

The only ex-premies at Amaroo that Rawat should care about are those who have spent years of their lives and thousands of dollars to give their time away in exchange for the sound of their own last drip.

But the sad fact is that he doesn't care about them. He doesn't care about them at all.

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Date: Fri, Mar 30, 2001 at 07:14:50 (GMT)
From: Loaf
Email: None
To: Brian
Subject: Very True Brian...
Message:
.. and the problem runs deep.

I think it is one thing to have 'outgrown' or had a slow dawning realisation - and blimey that has been hard enough for me - I really didnt know if I was coming or going for a while - but the 'old timers' will have dug themselves in even further - financially, socially, emotionally - and a collapse there - especially if M is angry/bitter against US - may give vent to some horrible behaviour.

If elan vital/Visions/wahadamar/ etc.. are having a hard time - either M wont hear about it until it is too late - in which case I imagine some senior management crises are impending - but more likely if there is an 'endgame' looming which they dont want M to know about - undoubtably someone trusted (not M) will run off with a lot of money to pick up their own life.

Knowing that there are millions or billions of dollars around M - I think the smart ones are positioned to grab a piece of pie.

Of course the fact that M will blame them and us for failing to serve him..will only cause the die hards to claw their way closer to him... but he is right to suspect their motives. The weary and the weak are all impressively armed now... and how the worm has turned.

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Date: Thurs, Mar 29, 2001 at 20:24:16 (GMT)
From: Francesca
Email: None
To: Brian
Subject: Correction -- didn't mention it there n/t
Message:
n/t
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Date: Thurs, Mar 29, 2001 at 20:21:38 (GMT)
From: Francesca
Email: None
To: Brian
Subject: I agree -- Did mention this same concern below --
Message:
in a post in response to Donner about what would happen if Lardy did recant and repent. Since I don't need him to, and it wouldn't change a thing for me really, I'm more worried about the people whose lives it would shatter.

Of course we have all seen the judge, city councilperson, mayor, senator, congressman (I'm not mentioning president because COME ON, everyone KNEW) who gets caught with a girlfriend the wife and kids didn't know about, or does some other crime that causes them to resign or forefeit office, and it is always a trauma for the family and close friends. In this case it would be lots of people (some of whom I know and love) who don't have a clue about this or don't want to.

Francesca

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Date: Thurs, Mar 29, 2001 at 19:35:55 (GMT)
From: Katie H.
Email: None
To: Forum Admin
Subject: I feel for these people
Message:
And I'm not being facetious. I have talked briefly to a couple of people who have worked on Amaroo, and a lot of the folks there are VERY committed, not only to M, but to ecological restoration. They have worked very hard and very unselfishly to restore the land around Amaroo, and, also, I'm sure, to make the 'events' there a success.

Anyway, it's not fun to hear about anyone going through this, although I suppose it might just be part of the process.

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Date: Thurs, Mar 29, 2001 at 21:06:38 (GMT)
From: Kelly
Email: None
To: Katie H.
Subject: I feel for these people
Message:
Me too Katie,
I have some good friends out there, really lovely people. Also for a while, I shared in that vision, and I loved the place, the most beautiful dramatic landscape, and birdsong like I have never heard anywhere else on this planet, all day and all night and especially at dawn and wallabies etc etc.(never mind the brown snakes!)
I also feel for those people who are working themselves into the ground to try to fulfil their improbable master's impossible demands.
But don't worry too much about their coming disillusion. I've only just been through it myself and it was devastating.. BUT, it was liberating, and now I feel like I've got my life back. I'm glad I went through it, really glad. Wouldn't have missed it for the world!
You and I, and every ex-premie who has been through the awakening from the cult trance, would not ever swap it for that blissful ignorance we once lived in, would we?
It's inevitable.
love Kelly
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Date: Thurs, Mar 29, 2001 at 21:13:50 (GMT)
From: Katie H.
Email: None
To: Kelly
Subject: Thanks, Kelly
Message:
I just feel bad when I think of all the good things some of the people there have done (I am one of those weirdo commie crackpot environmental scientists - a guy actually called me that on another forum!). I would hate to see the land that they have put so much effort into be placed back into farming or worse, if M decides he doesn't want Amaroo.

But, yeah, I agree that, although the disillusionment is hard, they will be happier when they go through it. It's hard to hear about people having nervous breakdowns and so forth, but it is good to know that they have friends like you and Tony if they need to talk.

Thanks again,
Katie

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Date: Thurs, Mar 29, 2001 at 21:45:40 (GMT)
From: Kelly
Email: None
To: Katie H.
Subject: It was a shock to hear that M owns Amaroo
Message:
When I think of all the hard labour that has gone into transforming that land, real hard labour. All along I kind of assumed, because we were led to believe, that it was sort of communally owned, ie. by EV Australia. To find that he owns it and leases it back to the premies...What a suck!
Kelly
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Date: Thurs, Mar 29, 2001 at 21:50:58 (GMT)
From: Katie H.
Email: None
To: Kelly
Subject: to echo Donner's post below - M could give it back
Message:
to the premies. They deserve it, and shouldn't just be the tenant farmers, so to speak.
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Date: Thurs, Mar 29, 2001 at 21:55:51 (GMT)
From: Kelly
Email: None
To: Katie H.
Subject: Haha! good one, and pigs might fly! nt
Message:
nt
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Date: Thurs, Mar 29, 2001 at 18:58:02 (GMT)
From: Nigel
Email: None
To: Forum Admin
Subject: 'ex-premie onslaught...?'
Message:
I wonder what that could be...?

An Oz-based ex once suggested to me that given the glorious clear blue skies above the site, it wouldn't take too much cash or effort to hire a skywriting pilot to write 'Lardy is a fraud! (or equivalent) across the - sorry HIS - firmament.

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Date: Thurs, Mar 29, 2001 at 19:37:05 (GMT)
From: Katie H.
Email: None
To: Nigel
Subject: They're talking about YOU, Nigel :) (nt)
Message:
nt
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Date: Thurs, Mar 29, 2001 at 19:11:52 (GMT)
From: G
Email: None
To: Nigel
Subject: You know, the stink bombs :)
Message:
Yea, I got mine ready, plus the howitzer to launch them. :)

Has the press and the locals been notified?

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Date: Thurs, Mar 29, 2001 at 19:07:07 (GMT)
From: cq
Email: None
To: Nigel
Subject: Skywriting?? Brilliant idea - any Oz exes around?
Message:
and if the skywriter were to write

'Maharaji is God'

in big, bold letters across the firmament -

wouldn't THAT get more attention - in the papers too?

Brilliant idea, Nige.

Others skywriting suggestions eagerly awaited.

.
.
.

(thinks ... bet it rains).

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Date: Fri, Mar 30, 2001 at 03:34:00 (GMT)
From: Nervous 'Roo Organizer
Email: None
To: cq
Subject: Note to self
Message:
Deploy anti aircraft defenses and mandate only PAMs can look up.
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Date: Fri, Mar 30, 2001 at 18:20:35 (GMT)
From: cq
Email: None
To: Nervous 'Roo Organizer
Subject: propagation certainly has taken a new turn! (nt)
Message:
bang!
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Date: Thurs, Mar 29, 2001 at 19:20:54 (GMT)
From: Selene
Email: None
To: cq
Subject: plane carrying banner might be cheaper
Message:
Msg is:

Free Happy Hour - Cognac real food - HaraJi's house - 5 p.pm

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Date: Thurs, Mar 29, 2001 at 22:09:25 (GMT)
From: Cynthia
Email: None
To: Selene
Subject: Selene, LOLOL!....
Message:
How about this:

''Drop by at the Ivory Rock Residence--all are welcome--snot cards needed.''

As far as the ''poor'' premies at Amaroo...well, I emphathize, but I think they'll be okay.

Life is rought in a cult, eh? Decisions, decisions....

Love,
Cynthia

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Date: Fri, Mar 30, 2001 at 01:22:03 (GMT)
From: Selene
Email: None
To: Cynthia
Subject: similar thoughts
Message:
I'm sure they work their fingers to the bone and all but in view of all the info available on their
'speaker teacher' it's a little hard to feel toooooo badly for them. I do wonder if those who leave can handle it, those I do feel bad for . I mean, I went bonkers for a while the last few years, and I never gave that much to the guru/teacher but in some ways it was my life because it was my belief system.
Another often overlooked thing:
if they have enough financial independence to do Amaroo on any basis once or a lot, then hell I say let them go through their process til they figure it out.
Which reminds me once again:

As often as I lament having to work a normal job I have also seen over and over how it has kept me off the deep end. I have to function so : I take my meds!!! AND have learned cooperation and other social skills I never would have learned in a cult.

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Date: Thurs, Mar 29, 2001 at 21:09:57 (GMT)
From: G
Email: None
To: Selene
Subject: Could do something in Ipswich, parade down...
Message:
... the street with huge pictures of 'Guru Maharaj Ji - Lord of the Universe', for old times sake. The locals would love it.
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Date: Thurs, Mar 29, 2001 at 20:28:40 (GMT)
From: Francesca
Email: None
To: Selene
Subject: What about: 'Monica Lewis will you marry me' n/t
Message:
n/t
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Date: Thurs, Mar 29, 2001 at 22:46:07 (GMT)
From: Selene
Email: None
To: Francesca
Subject: haha I wonder...
Message:
How many premies would even know what that meant?
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Date: Thurs, Mar 29, 2001 at 23:33:19 (GMT)
From: Francesca
Email: None
To: Selene
Subject: haha I wonder...
Message:
I guess we'd have to sign it Love, Prem Pal Singh Rawat! 'Twoud sure get them thinking. And it would be priceless to have some moles with cameras to capture the expressions on the honchos, or the murmur of the crowd as they buzzed about it, trying to figure out what it meant.

I couldn't resist because that 'will you marry me' stuff ends up on a certain percentage of those banners.

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Date: Fri, Mar 30, 2001 at 01:06:38 (GMT)
From: Selene
Email: None
To: Francesca
Subject: two banners then
Message:
because that is a great one. The happy hour ad could be in celebration of their engagement.
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Date: Fri, Mar 30, 2001 at 01:12:28 (GMT)
From: Katie
Email: None
To: Selene
Subject: a suggestion
Message:
from someone in my house :):

YOUR U.S. DOLLARS AT WORK

Gotta admit, the 'will you marry me, Monica?' is very funny.

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Date: Fri, Mar 30, 2001 at 06:16:37 (GMT)
From: Francesca
Email: None
To: Katie
Subject: Three banners then ... uh, no, actually we need ..
Message:
four. The fourth one will say, 'Thanks for the yacht!'

Good one -- US Dollars at work. Unfortunately the Pewks are working much harder.

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Date: Fri, Mar 30, 2001 at 10:27:15 (GMT)
From: Marianne
Email: None
To: Francesca
Subject: Frannie, you are a bad girl!
Message:
Did the nuns used to rap your knuckles in school? You are one of those girls who was a bad influence.

'Thanks for the yacht' indeed! hahahahahaha

Marianne

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Date: Fri, Mar 30, 2001 at 16:55:11 (GMT)
From: Francesca
Email: None
To: Marianne
Subject: Frannie, you are a bad girl!
Message:
Here we talk about another cult. My cousin Cissy and I were in the same class in first grade in Catholic school. Just looking at least other from across the class, we would smile or outright crack up. The first grade nun cured me of all that smartass stuff in short order. She was so mean and awful and I was so traumatized by it all that I became a submissive little dreamy girl with a hidden world for several years after it. Not hard for a first born child anyway.

The first grade nun would blame me for things I didn't do and stand me up in front of the class. If I did well on a test, she would say to me in front of the others, 'smarty got all the questions right. We'll get her next time' or something to that effect. So I'd try to intentionally answer a few questions wrong so she'd leave me alone, but she'd crow about how 'smarty' didn't get every question right. There was no winning with her.

I read Greek Mythology, fairy tale books and biographies during class, at least in 2nd grade, by hiding the book in my desk and pretending to pay attention to the teacher while I was reading. Sort of primitive multi-tasking. If I was called on to answer a question, I'd have to regroup and answer correctly or reasonably, so I wouldn't get busted. So I wasn't the smartest person in the class, but I got to read a lot of books, too!

I started rebelling at 13, and although I must say practicing K got me to stop reacting to everything, I still come back to rebellion. And my 6-year old smartass self. Not the nuns, not CoocooRaji the dancing spiritual cockroach, not the rigid constructs of the Tibetan Buddhist teachings can hold me down for long. My karma runs over dogma. Eventually.

Love 'ya, --f

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Date: Fri, Mar 30, 2001 at 01:23:53 (GMT)
From: Selene
Email: None
To: Katie
Subject: another great one!
Message:
But some would say it's USA centric :(
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Date: Fri, Mar 30, 2001 at 01:32:12 (GMT)
From: Katie H
Email: None
To: Selene
Subject: so is asking for US dollars only for registration!
Message:
Notice I didn't say PEOPLE from the U.S. - just money :).
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Date: Fri, Mar 30, 2001 at 01:42:59 (GMT)
From: Selene
Email: None
To: Katie H
Subject: oh I get it. greed wins and in that case
Message:
It's a good one!

I was in Santa Monica when the film Independence Day was being hyped. Must have been there for some event. As I tended to do, I took off alone and did the SM to Venice walk, sat one the beach and all these copter flew overhead suddenly with various banners, 'the time is coming', 'Prepare for the Final Confrontation',
'Independence Day Arrives soon' each helicopter had a different banner.
The movie hadn't even been talked about where i live (big surprise) and the helicoptors were Army green so I kinda got weirded out, asked a waiter on the boardwalk about it.

I am imagining a similar situation with all the banners over Amaroo.

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Date: Thurs, Mar 29, 2001 at 19:23:15 (GMT)
From: Marianne
Email: delores@gofree.indigo.ie
To: Selene
Subject: Selenie!!!!
Message:
That was hilarious! Just think - he'd try to bogart the cognac bottle, just like the joints.

Thanks for the kind words below.

Could you email me please?

Marianne

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Date: Thurs, Mar 29, 2001 at 06:22:30 (GMT)
From: michael donner
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: care?
Message:
i've been thinking about what i want or expect from/of m since patrick w. posted the other day. interesting process.

assuming that m and those current PAMs are now somehow more comfortable that m has been outed re the x-rating scene...so what does that mean to me/us?

it means nothing really.

then, assume for a moment that m apologized for all the things that have been enumerated on this site and elsewhere over the years. what would that mean to me/us. he stopped blaming, took responsibiltiy for his past, present and future behaviour, learned some real organizational skills that finally got the technology of meditation spreading around the world, etc. what would that mean to me/us then?

would he really stop thinking/saying/acting as if he owned the technology of knowledge? would he really give up the special place he has claimed for himself as the only ligitimate source of true inner peace? imagine that he did give all that up, really come down off that special pedestal he/we has created over time.
what would he be then? what would be his place in the world of social change/spiritual evolution/personal fulfilment movement?

its not like m has ever really been a world leader...as i/we might have hoped at one time,or even expected based upon his rethoric. Its not like he has ever build any coalitions with other leaders in the past 30 years of his 'work', made a real name for himself that might provide a platform that would allow him and (us with him) to play on the world stage of ...what...world peace, new age, heaven on earth, food for starving people, you name it.

so, if he apologized, changed and became less abusive, greedy, authoritarian, propritary...how would i respond to him? as i reflect on this (very unlikely and remote possibiltiy) i realize that i still would have no interest in joining with him (remember, due the the 'change in him' it would no longer be a matter of 'following' him). Why would i consider joining with him...to what end, towards what goal? i sit here and cannot even imagine a reason that would compel me to join with him. not only has he no credibility anymore...all the false starts towards any meaningful change...but he has no platform, no clear purpose, no rational system to effect any of the changes that interest me in working towards...either within myself or within some community/collective situation.

so, the whole things about weather or not he is/was/will ever change is moot, a non-starter with me.

furthermore, i spent way too many months/years thinking about m changing..to become somehow again what i was looking for. and i have no control over him...nor do i want any...but i can control my own process towards changing myself. i can continue to empower myself. continue to move towards what i enjoy and feel joy in being involved in/with. the people in my life, to become more truely intimate and caring and giving. to build community where i live, with the people i care about and who care about me.

and imagine, if someday m takes an interest in those issues that are important to me...consensus building, community building, personal development, intimate relationships, personal empowerment and shared appreciation and mutual valuing... and somehow in the context of those things our paths cross...at some convention, meeting, workshop, whatever...wouldn't that be amazing and interesting.

what do you think about what we hope for and expect from m?

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Date: Fri, Mar 30, 2001 at 04:07:02 (GMT)
From: Gregg
Email: binduesque@yahoo.com
To: michael donner
Subject: Yes!
Message:
I wish I had the time to read all the posts below. Maybe tomorrow. But for now: I so agree. Maharaji and his sorry posse are so last year.

Seriously, there is not much we can do to change the minds of M's thousand-man-and-woman entourage. And M is unlikely to change.

We can be here to call attention to what is. What is true about M and his life and his mission.

I hadn't thought about the issues Donner brought up until now. What if M did own up to his past and present? The way Donner frames the issue, it becomes pretty clear that the best thing for M to be would be to keep on keepin' on w/ his Master of the Cult thing. Q.E.D.

Thanks for yr input, Mike.

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Date: Thurs, Mar 29, 2001 at 22:20:55 (GMT)
From: Katie H.
Email: None
To: michael donner
Subject: expect nothing - but hope?
Message:
hey michael (lower-case),

I gave up on expecting anything from M a long time ago. I can't even remember expecting anything from him when I was a premie - I mean, how can you expect something from the Incarnation? They are always right! But generally, I've found it's better NOT to expect people to change - part of growing up, I guess.

I would HOPE, however, that M could learn to act like an adult human being. I'm talking about someone who is able to take responsibility for their own actions, to apologize, and to make amends where necessary. Of course, I hope the same for everyone else in the world, so I'm not singling M out. But it would help a lot of people if he could do this. I think it would also be hard for a lot of people WHILE it was helping them, unfortunately, but that's what happens when people who have been lying all their lives finally tell the truth.

I would never even think of following M again, or 'joining with him' or anything like that. It was almost hard for me to answer your question after reading that part of your post. But after reading your posts, and Michael Dettmer's posts, and J-M's posts for a while, I think there is something different about people who actually got to be 'people around Maharaji' - if only for a little while. It's something I don't envy at all - and I wish you the best of luck in dealing with it. There seems to be a lot of loyalty there, and it also seems to be far harder to break the bonds. Sometimes it's a bit hard for the rest of us to understand, but it's getting clearer.

Take care, michael,
Katie

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Date: Fri, Mar 30, 2001 at 02:29:48 (GMT)
From: donner
Email: None
To: Katie H.
Subject: expect nothing - but hope?
Message:
hi katie h...its hard for me to understand how you got the impression that i am at all interested in joining m. i reread my post and clearly i said the opposite...interesting...and loyalty? where do you see that i what i am/have been saying?
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Date: Fri, Mar 30, 2001 at 06:11:04 (GMT)
From: Katie H
Email: None
To: donner
Subject: expect nothing - but hope?
Message:
Hi michael -
I didn't mean to give the impression that I thought you wanted to join with M in any way - you absolutely did not say that. From your post - and by comparing the feelings you have with my feelings about M - I did get the feeling that you do care about him (in a compassionate way) more than someone like me could do because you knew him personally. I might be really off base with this, but that is what I meant by loyalty. I did not mean.that you were loyal to him in any other way - just caring and compassion for someone you once knew. You just seem to write about him in a more personal way than most of the other people here - although maybe it is just your style.

Anyway, apologies if I implied something weird about your post - I really liked it.

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Date: Fri, Mar 30, 2001 at 15:38:16 (GMT)
From: donner
Email: None
To: Katie H
Subject: expect nothing - but hope?
Message:
hi thanks for clearing that up...i was not sure what you meant.
an interesting observation...will have to ponder that. i feels tons of anger and lots of disappointment still to this day re m..perhaps because i knew him more closely but more likely because i put more hope onto him as an individual/potential leader-saviour. my personal biography leading up to 1972 receiving k created/allowed that projection/hope.

also interesting re personal relationship with m. i have in the past referred to having a personal relationship with m and others have referred to same...thinking more clearly about this its certain that i did not have what i would now call a personal relationship with him at all during all those years of being close to him 'physically'. he never allowed a personal relationship with anyone as far as i could tell. not by any reasonable standards including converstion, personal interest, personal caring, give and take..any sense of respectful equality, etc. this dawned on me in about 1990 finally. and became another wonderment for me re why i stuck around so long afterall.

speaking with perhaps more compassion...actually i hope i am learning more compassion...comes with less blame and projection and more ownership of my own choices i think...but nothing specific with m really....something i am aware of wanting to cultivate more in my life.

thanks, warmly michael

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Date: Fri, Mar 30, 2001 at 15:54:32 (GMT)
From: donner
Email: None
To: katie h
Subject: expect nothing - but hope?
Message:
one more little thing if you read below my running conversation with patrick w...you will notice that i posted this question and thoughts mainly for folks that tend to think like he does during, what i believe to be, a natural period in exiting the m cult.
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Date: Fri, Mar 30, 2001 at 16:10:02 (GMT)
From: Katie H
Email: None
To: donner
Subject: expect nothing - but hope?
Message:
Thanks, donner - that did help me understand the point of your post. I just don't think about Maharaji very much (and I never could be as devoted as I wanted to be, although I sure ACTED like it) but I understand that a lot of other people here do.
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Date: Thurs, Mar 29, 2001 at 22:15:45 (GMT)
From: Wildflower
Email: None
To: michael donner
Subject: care?
Message:
This is my first, and possibly only, post. Francesca told me about this site a while back and I have been cruising it, looking for and finding first hand accounts of many of the things I've heard rumors about over the years. I salute those of you who have bravely and honestly come forward. It is a contribution to the many of us for whom it was important to hear the truth from those who were there.

Michael, I always thought you were one of those in whom a vein of integrity ran deep and true, and your posts here have certainly borne that out. I salute you and thank you for your open sharing of your on-going life story. To me, being among folks who are willing to put their search for meaning and dignity and truth in life out on the table for the mutual benefit of all participants is what the 'company of truth' is really about.

I was a garden variety ashram premie who moved out after six years because I wasn't willing to have a life of celebacy. I always maintained some sort of fence between m the person in the body and m the inner spiritual guide, so I never wanted one of those so coveted positions of service which brought one into close proximity with him physically. My personal crisis came in 1983, when he was doing those question and answer sessions at programs. His response to someone sounded to me like he was invalidating the person's inner experience in favor of m's physical presence and direction, and I totally freaked. I spent years in a process of coming to terms with knowing that m was not any longer and never could again be a teacher to me, and yet wanting to continue to practice the techniques without any longer associating them with m. Mostly I struggled alone, as no one - premie or ex-premie - seemed to be able to really understand my sense of dilemma.

Now, years later, moved on and healed, I follow the advice given in 12 step groups: take what you like and leave the rest. One of the things I've taken is a quote in which m said, 'The master is the manifestation of the longing of the student.' The way I look at it now, my higher power or spiritual guiding force or whatever you want to call it will use anything I'm open to in order to reach me and teach me what I need to know. At one time in my life, I obviously needed m as a teacher. Outgrowing that was painful but very expanding for me. Now I'm open to other avenues, and my higher power has wasted no time in making use of those. It may be a bumpy and spiral shaped journey, but I am growing. My heart is opening. My life has always been a spiritual journey, and it always will be. In one sense, I take personal responsibility for all that m ever was to me, both good and bad. That was obviously the lens I needed. Now I need another one.

Here's to continued growth!

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Date: Fri, Mar 30, 2001 at 03:36:03 (GMT)
From: Mercedes
Email: None
To: Wildflower
Subject: Thanks...
Message:
Hi Wildflower, thank you for posting, reading your post has helped me a lot. I am mostly angry this days, angry at having been a hostage to the most awful and mean predator, I too had to change HP's. And the transition has been a bit rough. It is nice to know that my HP has not shape or form.
Hope you keep posting.
Love,
Mercedes
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Date: Fri, Mar 30, 2001 at 02:29:11 (GMT)
From: Pat Conlon
Email: None
To: Wildflower
Subject: Hi, Wildflower, any friend of Francesca's
Message:
is a friend of mine. Thank you for you post but I was hoping you would stick around for a bit and tell us more.
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Date: Fri, Mar 30, 2001 at 01:10:38 (GMT)
From: Katie H.
Email: None
To: Wildflower
Subject: Thanks, Wildflower
Message:
Hope you will post again if you feel like it. I was interested to read about your struggle to practice the techniques without associating them with M, and glad to know it was successful.

I also really liked this, about what caused you to leave M:
His response to someone sounded to me like he was invalidating the person's inner experience in favor of m's physical presence and direction, and I totally freaked.

YES! Thanks for bringing that up. I think that still happens all the time.

Take care,
Katie

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Date: Fri, Mar 30, 2001 at 00:56:13 (GMT)
From: Richard
Email: None
To: Wildflower
Subject: Wonderful post Wildflower and welcome!
Message:
Please continue to read the site, once the dust settles, and do post again. I enjoyed reading your thoughts.

Richard

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Date: Fri, Mar 30, 2001 at 00:46:02 (GMT)
From: Moldy Warp
Email: None
To: Wildflower
Subject: Hello Wildflower. nice to 'meet' you
Message:
You have an interesting perpective (in your last para) about M fulfilling a need in you at that time. I'm not sure I totally agree, from my perpective.But I can see that that is an empowering perpective for some people. Hope you post somemore, if you feel to. Nice name BTW. Are you female - must be with a name like that -don't answer if you don't want to. Happy journeying!
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Date: Thurs, Mar 29, 2001 at 22:05:29 (GMT)
From: Bryn
Email: bryndaviesesq@hotmail.com
To: michael donner
Subject: If this is going to be part of my evolution...
Message:
...and not a twenty five year catastrophe, I can't afford to spare a thought for the individual formerly known as M.

Frankly my dear..

love Bryn

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Date: Thurs, Mar 29, 2001 at 18:38:16 (GMT)
From: Francesca
Email: None
To: michael donner
Subject: I don't care
Message:
Unlike you Mike, I guess I never wanted to change him. I did send a few letters asking for some administrative changes -- better treatment of us peons that were trying to go to programs on only 1 to 2 weeks notice, or a little child care for premies who showed up after not seeing His Fatness for several years only to be told they weren't allowed in without a baby sitter. (Some had driven for hours, or flown down. By the time they got a babysitter, 2 hour program over -- blip. I don't have kids, I was doing ushering in the hall and just couldn't believe what folks were being told at the door.) But I digress.

Once I realized that he wasn't what I thought he was, and then of course as we've all discussed, even if he was, I probably wouldn't want it anyway, I just don't care. They only reason I post on here is to deconstruct, find old friends, make new ones from people I barely knew, and to warn others to stay away from Rawat, and guru-disciple trips in general.

Peace and Love, f

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Date: Thurs, Mar 29, 2001 at 16:24:54 (GMT)
From: Richard
Email: None
To: michael donner
Subject: A glimmer of humility or humanity would help
Message:
Donner, you've cast the cold hard light of day on the romantic notion that if one can just excuse away enough of M's behaviour, underneath there would be a true teacher. It is clear, this is not the case. Excellent point and a real koan for anyone questioning their involvement with M&K. It helps to continue the demystification.

A glimmer of humility or humanity on M's part would help justify the faith, energy, dedication and love I brought to the party. That M had potential but lost his way. The reason I quit practicing K and attending events was because I realized that M hadn't fullfilled, his potential his promises or my own imagination of what a true teacher should be.

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Date: Thurs, Mar 29, 2001 at 15:05:17 (GMT)
From: Susan
Email: None
To: michael donner
Subject: Wow GREAT subject!!!
Message:
I am so glad your voice is here...this is actually something I mulled over myself.

I do not know if you have read the 'MRC' letter but a group of us decided to DO something different than just the site here. We wrote a letter, to Rawat, and some of the people who wrote it were wavering premies, and asked him to apologize and take responsibility for his past. It was hard to write as it had to speak for us all and we don't all see things the same.

But the letter was POWERFUL. I thought. It was powerful because it wrote to him as a human, as a human worth salvaging for his own humanity.

And the non response said it all.

But, what if Rawat did give Richard's speech, what if he did develop a conscience and really step down from his role. I too, agree, I would not in anyway want to have anything to do with him. That would not change. But boy, things for the current premies ( or PWKS ) would change, he could bascially set them mentally free. He could get them help in learning to think for themselves and get their own personal power back. And Rawat, for the first time in his life, could have real friends, ( not me ), real relationships, and sort of see if he can manage in this world without living a lie. The concept of this change, as impossible as it seems to me ( I think he is a sociopath ) is almost healing to think about. It really points out the contrast to what is.

Anyway, I like the question, I think in visualizing it, visualizing Richards speech, visualizing the aftermath, one becomes clear on what he should do. And it becomes clearer just where the harm is in all this, and how those premies who are left still could really benefit, and live the rest of their live the rest of their lives joined back with the authentic true self who was lost to the cult.

Also, if Rawat made Richards speech. I would personally find it healing. Some of my anger would diffuse.

If Rawat and the premies who knew about Jagdeo were to ever tell the truth about Jagdeo, and ask for my forgiveness, it would mean a lot to me, a WHOLE lot.

Jagdeo himself no way it would matter, I don't think a creep like that has a soul. He hurt people I love too much, and nothing he could say would matter to me.

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Date: Fri, Mar 30, 2001 at 02:40:40 (GMT)
From: donner
Email: None
To: Susan
Subject: Wow GREAT subject!!!
Message:
hi susan...i do not agree that if he gave richard's speech that he would'set the current pwks free' we can really only free ourselves. more then likely many pkws would pine away, beg him to come back as their lord and saviour. free ourselves. but, i did read your letter and it was many of the things i would say...and i too somewhere inside wish he would stop being a prick but mostly i hope that others get out of his way rather then hope he will stop being a prick.
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Date: Fri, Mar 30, 2001 at 02:53:32 (GMT)
From: Susan
Email: None
To: donner
Subject: I agree with you
Message:
I have thought to that if Rawat gave that speech there would be premies who would see it as a test of faith.

But I think it would also be a catalyst at least, for many, to get back what part of their personal power they have relinquished to the guru.

I also agree it will never happen. I agree as well that the place to put our hope for the people left in the cult is that they will take their power back themselves, and not waste a moment of 'this precious life' waiting for him to change.

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Date: Fri, Mar 30, 2001 at 05:43:22 (GMT)
From: Richard
Email: None
To: Susan
Subject: The speech was written for me and others here
Message:
Someone close to me was going to Portland that day and I needed an editorial outlet for everything I was feeling. Loss, separation, fear. It did me good to put in words the things that I would want to hear from M. Mainly just to let myself and others see the dramatic contrast between my imagination and M's reality.

It's odd the years that rolled by waiting for M to be the guru I was drawn to while I ignored the dissonance.

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Date: Fri, Mar 30, 2001 at 15:39:45 (GMT)
From: donner
Email: None
To: Richard
Subject: The speech was written for me and others here
Message:
right on richard!
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Date: Thurs, Mar 29, 2001 at 21:34:29 (GMT)
From: Kelly
Email: None
To: Susan
Subject: Wow GREAT subject!!! and great thread!
Message:
Hi Susan ,donner, Richard, Francesca, Connie and all, thanks for some really great thought provoking stuff.
I think I have come to the same conclusion as all you guys.
It would be too little too late, no point now, not for me anyway.
I think the only answer is the truth, the whole truth and nothing but he truth, and I just don't see how Rawat will ever be able to face it. One of the first conclusions I came to, when I woke up, so to speak, was that he is the most deluded of us all. It's interesting you call him a sociopath, Susan. I heard a psychologist define the real nature of a psychopath, on the radio the other night....I really wish I could remember what he said, but it described M perfectly!
Thanks to you all
Kelly
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Date: Thurs, Mar 29, 2001 at 14:58:41 (GMT)
From: Connie
Email: None
To: michael donner
Subject: care?
Message:
Micheal, you said:

'assuming that m and those current PAMs are now somehow more comfortable that m has been outed re the x-rating scene...so what does that mean to me/us?'

Absolutely nothing, why did he think it so necessary to hide this stuff in the first place. If true, IMO this is just another strategic move.

'Assume for a moment that m apologized for all the things that have been enumerated on this site and elsewhere over the years. what would that mean to me/us.'

No matter how convincing the apology, I would find it hard to trust anything he said. For me, trust, once betrayed is very difficult to restore. The betrayal I feel in regards to him is complex, encompassing many levels, physical, emotional, mental, spiritual.

'he stopped blaming, took responsibiltiy for his past, present and future behaviour, learned some real organizational skills that finally got the technology of meditation spreading around the world, etc. what would that mean to me/us then?'

Taking responsibility partially implies an active process, and if this was the case, IMO that would take the rest of his life, so spreading the meditation is a moot point. If he did have time, he would have to actually meditate consistently for a long period to know what he is talking about. I don't think the learning of organizational skills himself, is as important as trusting and letting others use their skills to full potential, instead of using sabotage and playing people off against each other to keep them powerless.

'would he really stop thinking/saying/acting as if he owned the technology of knowledge? would he really give up the special place he has claimed for himself as the only ligitimate source of true inner peace? imagine that he did give all that up, really come down off that special pedestal he/we has created over time.
what would he be then? what would be his place in the world of social change/spiritual evolution/personal fulfilment movement?'

Don't know if he ever will. If he did come down off the pedestal, I have no evidence that he would place any value on being concerned about social change/spiritual evolution/personal fulfillment. In fact, everything he says, seems to indicate that he mocks those things.

what do you think about what we hope for and expect from m?

As with others, things I hope for:

Answers and some resolution and making sense of the time I spent in the cult. Justice, honesty, humanity.

Things I expect from m:

Respect, care and just plain common decency to fellow human beings, as I expect from any other. Expectation and reality do not necessarily go together though.

The biggest question I think is what would it mean if he publically acknowledged he wasn't the Master as we in the west interpreted it and the perpertration of this myth by him. Or the devotee/master relationship was not particularly suited to a western culture. Even if he did all the things you stated, knowing he wasn't, and being a devotee wasn't what was required, would you still want to be associated with him as just a meditation teacher/inspirational speaker?

This is what I finally understood. If I decide I need a meditation teacher, I would choose someone who practices what they preach and whom I respect.

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Date: Fri, Mar 30, 2001 at 02:44:00 (GMT)
From: donner
Email: None
To: Connie
Subject: care?
Message:
you said it!
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Date: Thurs, Mar 29, 2001 at 13:45:10 (GMT)
From: bill
Email: None
To: michael donner
Subject: better that the devil keep his horns.
Message:
The programming went so deep for so many that his insane babbleing cant make the zealots bolt.

Sandy, who has seen all the data presented here, has a hard time accepting it still.

If rawat comes to sanity, after he dies the zealots will take the -fixed rawat- videos and splice them with the lord of the universe ones in thier attempt to proclaim 'he was here.'

All that music, all the photos of him looking good in the crown,
all the photos of him with large crowds, all the stats of his flying time, all the twisted praises, will all be distilled into the after his death propagation drive.

He will be enshrined as the god in heaven and he came to give his knowledge to the kaliyuga and to many won't THAT be
'amazing and interesting'...!

Better that he stay the confused narcissist or whatever clinical
titles he qualifies for.

He doesnt think he has to answer to anyone, but it IS 'amazing and interesting' that all those that play god go insane!
Life is too short, there is no redemption for a devil of this
type. And I say good for that.

Someone will make some real money writing the lessons of this
mad religious gamble.

Yet another spawn of buddha and his misperceptions of life.
Now THERE was an insane godhead.

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Date: Thurs, Mar 29, 2001 at 13:51:48 (GMT)
From: bill
Email: None
To: bill
Subject: Anyone care to call Kitty Kelley?...nt
Message:
sdfh
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Date: Thurs, Mar 29, 2001 at 12:37:45 (GMT)
From: Scott T.
Email: None
To: michael donner
Subject: care?
Message:
Michael:

Nice to meet you. I've been away.

Actually, having M make a public statement of the sort that's been speculated about *would* make some minor difference to me. I'm a Democrat, and believe in the principle of amelioration. The notion that a lifelong exploiter could have an epiphany of that sort renews my faith in the principle of amelioration, since it supports the underlying contention they people can learn and reform after they've left HS (or in M's case, after they've reached the age of 17). It even suggests (albeit faintly) that I might have a thing or two to learn myself, perish the thought. Of course, OJ will always claim someone else did the deed, so you can't win them all.

--Scott

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Date: Thurs, Mar 29, 2001 at 12:37:43 (GMT)
From: Loaf
Email: loafji@yahoo.com
To: michael donner
Subject: I agree MD ! Forget M - lets heal US !
Message:
Mike - you have hit the nail on the head here...

M is NOT the issue here (for me anyhow). People are. People like me and you and you and you who are coming to terms with what has happened to them.

Throughout my time as a PWK, The little man behind the curtain ... I never saw. I only saw the act - the projection.. the Wizard of Oz.

Now that the curtain is drawn back - and I realise I was fooled -part of me shatters- and I have to pick up the pieces myself. M is out of the equation more than EVER... in reality he was never in it... just the Guru, the focal point... the all powerful wizard.

But M as a fucked up mortal deserves no more attention than any other fucked up mortal- and if he turned up at a workshop of mine - I doubt if he would be of any particular interest at all.

Its like waking up from being hypnotized... and I feel lost - and suddenly I need love and support and help from You guys.. just to put words and names to so many unthought thoughts.

Thankyou everyone for being here - and thankyou Mike for this post - which has clarified something very important for me.

Thankyou.

Loaf

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Date: Thurs, Mar 29, 2001 at 11:46:25 (GMT)
From: Dermot
Email: None
To: michael donner
Subject: 'hope for and expect from?'
Message:
Well ....I'll start with expect,,,,,,,,I expect he'll continue to milk it as much as he can ,,,,,and then to pass on the family biz to one of his sons or daughters.

I hope as many premies as possible find out what a hypocrite he has been all these years ....so many in fact that he has to accept that the game is over.

I'm not vindictive by nature but DLM /EV under his ownership and control ( how can he ever pretend that he has no responsility for those two organisations? ,,,,sheesh) has been responsible for countless suicides (lest we forget .....and I forget often) and all sorts of abuse of power, manipulation and mis-representation. Jim's the resident lawyer...dunno much about that side of it,

I'd be happy if he truly and genuinely renounces the whole caboodle and genuinely explains in absolute, chronological detail why he started to do what he did and why he continued the deception for 30 odd years ....and what he is going to do to atone for his actions.

Having said that I don't think he really gives a toss about changing (Krishnamurti renounced being the world teacher because he realised early on that it was all a load of theosophical society baloney.....I dont think m has the courage to genuinely face the fact that he's not something special.)

Not too long ago .....maybe 3 or so years ago he said that he has his enemies but as long as he has more friends than enemies then he can live with it. The reality is that 's how he sees it.

As long as he has needy, dependent people around him to 'feel that longing' and then attribute that to him ....then he'll just carry on. a stick and a pie chart and a bunch of people around him who'll laugh at his jokes and gaze in wonder upon him ....that's his world.

It's pathetic really. How come I believed it for so long???

Dermot

sucked in early,escaped late,,but better late than never

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Date: Thurs, Mar 29, 2001 at 18:45:09 (GMT)
From: Francesca
Email: None
To: Dermot
Subject: Great post Dermot, especially this, for me --
Message:
As long as he has needy, dependent people around him to 'feel that longing' and then attribute that to him ....then he'll just carry on. a stick and a pie chart and a bunch of people around him who'll laugh at his jokes and gaze in wonder upon him ....that's his world.

Says it all -- the world of the Master of lies, flies and cries.

--f

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Date: Thurs, Mar 29, 2001 at 11:35:00 (GMT)
From: Patrick Wilson
Email: None
To: all
Subject: My position since I posted that report.
Message:
Pat Conlon wrote below:

I am a suspicious streetwise old fag and I can smell dishonesty, scams and con games a mile a way. Patrick W's posts stink of subtle revisionist propaganda inserted into the forum in the guise of criticizing Rawat but all the time it is the work of a subtle APOLOGIST.

He then kindly continues:

posting RUMORS about Rawat's reform is very naughty especially when it is written in pompous pious tones of hushed devoutness.

So what do you guys want -should I continue to pass this stuff on to you at the risk of being insulted that I am a premie troll or some other such stupid name??

This is what I have to say to Mr Hard-liner Pat Conlon:

Before you start tarring me with your conspiratorial brush for passing on this rumour, why don't you ask Donner about this?.. he also has since spoken directly with this person whose report I simply posted verbatim. , although he has not chosen to make this so clear. Anyway I'm sure he could confirm that I was accurately passing on the message and that my comment about it was a clearly distinct matter.

Your current suggestions about are frankly more offensive than anything any premies have even levelled at me. 'Pious tones of hushed devoutness'. and 'stinking revisionist propoganda' are mean-spirited accusations and I find this quite hurtful.

Rude people like you and Brian make me also consider not bothering to post here. I am struggling to justify my own continued presence here under the circumstances. You choose to attack people like me because I don't measure up to your standards of hard-line approach. That's not for me thanks.

I admit that I have been trying to get the two 'sides' to talk. I think that is healthy. Are you saying that you advocate no negotiation?? I tried to arrange that Mike Dettmers could talk with Glen the other day -that failed - I suppose you think that that makes me a collaborator. Mike did get to have lunch with Raja Ji though. I guess that makes him a collaborator too in your opinion does it? Whatever - I'm sick of your rude suspiciousness. The last thing I need is people like you questioning my sincerity here.

I thought I made it clear that I am devoutly pursuing truth here. The way you are going you will put off all sincere people from posting. If this place becomes the one-sided domain of ex-premies with no room for other view then I am going to withdraw like a shot. I have already asked Brian to remove my 'journey' in protest to what I see as a growing trend for smug rudeness and intolerance apparently championed by people like him and you.

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Date: Fri, Mar 30, 2001 at 02:52:03 (GMT)
From: donner
Email: None
To: Patrick Wilson
Subject: My position since I posted that report.
Message:
i for one hope you continue...and yes, i did hear what you heard and reported...and that is what prompted me to wonder...so what?
there is so much more then m and those around him becoming comfortable with the x-rated scene coming into the open...so what about all the rest...far more important stuff discussed here?

what do you think patrick, would it does it make any difference to you?

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Date: Fri, Mar 30, 2001 at 14:53:54 (GMT)
From: Dermot
Email: None
To: PW
Subject: Patrick W...
Message:
Hello Patrick.

While you're at it...

...be grateful if you or MD would acknowledge and respond to my question mate....see 'my position since......' regarding contacting Glen,Rja Ji and 'negotiations etc'

Cheers

Dermot.

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Date: Fri, Mar 30, 2001 at 11:51:20 (GMT)
From: Patrick W
Email: None
To: donner
Subject: My position since I posted that report.
Message:
I'll have to get back to you on your question because I am busy working right now. My immediate answer would be yes, some sort of redress from M would be very liberating, not just to me but for many people.
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Date: Fri, Mar 30, 2001 at 15:43:58 (GMT)
From: donner
Email: None
To: Patrick W
Subject: My position since I posted that report.
Message:
hi patrick, while you ponder this consider this question...can anyone liberate you? for me, we can only liberate ourselves...that is the key to empowerment and real freedom. conversely, only m can liberate himself and become free of the false life he has created as guru...the guru of gurus, etc.

while his redress might give some satisfaction...liberation??
be wary of the jailer who changes his spots and opens the door to another round of more of the same indisquise.

let me know what you think? us know.

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Date: Fri, Mar 30, 2001 at 16:07:56 (GMT)
From: Susan
Email: None
To: donner
Subject: can people really change, and if they change how
Message:
does it affect others...

In other instances in my life, a sincere apology, and then a change in behavior that makes it clear that the regret is real....have mattered.

Moreover, I have without a doubt done things I seriously regret, and have hurt others, and I have apologized, and tried to make amends, and change. Most people have.

We are discussing if Rawat were to really change. As I said before, I think the human capacity for introspection and conscience may be lacking in him, he may not even be able to change, because he may be lacking the capacity to really feel empathy. This in no way excuses anything. Anymore than I would excuse Ted Bundy or John Wayne Gacy because they are sociopaths.

But lets say he could change... that there is a kernel of a soul in there we haven't seen.

It would matter to me. An apology, and amends, and his ceasing to be a cult leader, that would be good, and I would respect that he tried to stop the whole charade. It would be good for the current premies if he tried to shake them and say this is a cult! Let me find you help to get on your feet mentally again! I am sorry, I have wounded you deeply. Please forgive me.

I would not have anything to do with him. I would hope he would give up being any sort of teacher. Most would not forgive him I would guess, that is fine. But a sincere apology would also mean giving up any position where he could recreate the cult.

I do not think this is going to happen.

Look, a pig just flew by my window (NOT)

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Date: Fri, Mar 30, 2001 at 16:39:39 (GMT)
From: donner
Email: None
To: Susan
Subject: can people really change, and if they change how
Message:
ya, i agree mostly...a sincere apology and real change would serve everyone well, no doubt about it. i was addressing that sense of waiting and hoping for a change... and what is inside us that wants one...any remenants of that old devotional need to give our power away still,,,that is more my point/question. but ya, it would be good for him and others...also bet that the line of those begging him to make a guru comeback would be long...all that begging would be sickening.
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Date: Sat, Mar 31, 2001 at 00:36:51 (GMT)
From: Connie
Email: None
To: donner
Subject: difference between people changing
Message:
due to a realization they have and honestly wanting to change and 'change' being forced upon them by circumstances.

That is why I think hearing that m may be glad that some stuff that was x-rated has been exposed is just a strategic move. If true, I don't think he woke up one day and had an epiphany and felt remorse or an honest need for redress re his duplicity. Looks more like it has been forced upon him, IMO.

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Date: Fri, Mar 30, 2001 at 03:05:01 (GMT)
From: Susan
Email: None
To: donner
Subject: so what?
Message:
I think perhaps he is relieved because:

He can give darshan and smoke ( pot or cigars ) at the same time. No more getting a jones pretending.

The gifts in darshan lines might be more usuable...cognac, hash, marlboros, good cigars

He can play Peter Frampton at any program he wants, and no one will think less of him.

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Date: Thurs, Mar 29, 2001 at 19:18:53 (GMT)
From: Pat Conlon
Email: None
To: Patrick Wilson
Subject: Patrick W - I apologise
Message:
I am truly sorry for being so fanatical and self-righteous. The only excuses that I have to offer is that I have recently been bombarded both here and in real life with reports like yours and I was feeling besieged by it. I have never doubted your sincerity till then. Also I am a new ex and like a new ex-smoker am hardline and uncompromising.

I do know that the oldtimers here have not taken what I said seriously and have dismissed it as new ex paranoia and it may well be. But I will do anything that you think is necessary to restore newcomers' trust in you in case they have taken what I said seriously because of not knowing you. Please feel free to chastise me in any way that you see fit. I have always respected your previous posts and I am afraid that I shot the messenger.

Right now I don't care whether Rawat repents or not so it irritated me. Also because of the bombardment by Ev in my personal life I have become overly touchy about what I perceive as spin-control. My humble apologies, Patrick, and I hope that we can resolve this issue.

I WAS VERY WRONG to make such irresponsible statements.

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Date: Thurs, Mar 29, 2001 at 20:23:59 (GMT)
From: Patrick Wilson
Email: None
To: Pat Conlon and Brian
Subject: To my detractors
Message:
Apology totally accepted - we'll forget that little hiccup Pat. Thanks.

Now that just leaves one long overdue apology outstanding...that is from webmaster Brian for trying so desperately to paint me as some kind of trite, self-centred trouble maker over the years.

Hi Brian, since you appear determined to offload your nastiness and paranoia on me, I don't suppose you can demonstrate the same strength of character as Pat, to back down from your more constant, dreary misinterpretations of my intentions can you? No, I thought not.

Incidently I am not going to give you the pleasure of withdrawing from posting here, but as you may have gathered I find your remarks so abjectly pathetic and tiresome that I cannot bring myself to have anything more to do with you or your website - so thanks for removing my journey.. I feel much better for that.

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Date: Fri, Mar 30, 2001 at 02:24:34 (GMT)
From: bill--I must be too dense
Email: None
To: Patrick Wilson
Subject: to see the flaws of my forum mates!...nt
Message:
sdfhsj
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Date: Fri, Mar 30, 2001 at 02:26:54 (GMT)
From: bill--I managed to miss
Email: None
To: bill--I must be too dense
Subject: rawat's grevious defects as well--for years!!..nt
Message:
dfgh
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Date: Fri, Mar 30, 2001 at 02:34:04 (GMT)
From: Pat Conlon - I wish you
Email: None
To: bill--I managed to miss
Subject: would stop posting only one-liners and give us
Message:
your take on Buddhism. I thought you were going to answer me weeks ago when I asked. I know you did but it was only a one-liner. As someone who always thought Buddha was quite a sensible fellow I would really enjoy reading an essay from you demystifying the old fart. How about it?
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Date: Fri, Mar 30, 2001 at 12:49:32 (GMT)
From: bill
Email: None
To: Pat Conlon - I wish you
Subject: Im off to boston so give me a few days....nt
Message:
sdfh
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Date: Thurs, Mar 29, 2001 at 20:59:10 (GMT)
From: Katie H
Email: None
To: Patrick Wilson
Subject: PW, he already apologized to you once
Message:
In the LAST e-mail war. You did not acknowledge this apology in any way. It may be impolite and ungracious not to apologize, but it's also impolite and ungracious to not accept or even acknowledge someone's apology - and it certainly makes the person less likely to apologize in the future.

BTW, I wish you wouldn't have removed your journey because of a personal conflict with Brian - it was a great Journey, and has helped a lot of people I know. But, as I said earlier, you're entitled - just wish you would reconsider.

Take care,
Katie

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Date: Fri, Mar 30, 2001 at 02:55:25 (GMT)
From: donner
Email: None
To: Katie H
Subject: PW, he already apologized to you once
Message:
see folks, this is how threads get tangled and off topic...start a new thread for this and stick to the topic above...as someone pointed out...threads always deteriorate...lets consider trying something new...stay on topic or start a new thread..but here i am, off topic in the middle of this thread...
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Date: Fri, Mar 30, 2001 at 06:20:41 (GMT)
From: Katie H
Email: None
To: donner
Subject: I AM the one who posted about thread deterioration
Message:
OK, I'm embarassed now. Sorry about that. (And this.)
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Date: Thurs, Mar 29, 2001 at 21:19:31 (GMT)
From: Patrick W
Email: None
To: Katie H
Subject: PW, he already apologized to you once
Message:
I did not acknowledge his apology in any way because it still sounded unrepentantly patronising to me - period. Obviously I was right. He's stubbornly clinging to his wrong ideas about me - so he can jolly well accept the consequences of his nastiness towards me - which I have stated.
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Date: Thurs, Mar 29, 2001 at 21:23:12 (GMT)
From: Katie H.
Email: None
To: Patrick W
Subject: Well, if that's the way you feel
Message:
There's nothing I can do about it. I still think that closing down communication doesn't help matters, but so be it.
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Date: Thurs, Mar 29, 2001 at 21:05:02 (GMT)
From: Pat Conlon
Email: None
To: Katie H
Subject: PW, please leave your journey - it helped me NT
Message:
k
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Date: Thurs, Mar 29, 2001 at 18:51:49 (GMT)
From: Francesca
Email: None
To: Patrick Wilson
Subject: I personally appreciate you Pat W ...
Message:
and your voice here.

The thing that everyone made a big deal about, posting someone's personal address, is extremely technical. You merely posted a public government record that happened to contain someone's personal address because that's the address those persons gave the government, to be made part of a public record.

There was a case along these lines in California, filed against a state agency by some doctors (I think they were prison doctors). They lost the case and the court told them they were free to use a PO Box. In that case, it was no major big deal to the doctors until everything was put on the Internet (but they were warned and chose to sue rather than get PO Boxes, I guess).

It gets hair-trigger around here, but please hang in mate. Some of us love 'ya.

Sincerely,

Francesca

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Date: Thurs, Mar 29, 2001 at 16:47:28 (GMT)
From: Sir Dave
Email: sirdavid12@hotmail.com
To: Patrick Wilson
Subject: The wolves Patrick, the wolves are baying
Message:
They are baying for your blood. This place is just like the real world. Sometimes worse. Thankfully, it's only a collection of web pages. The wolves may turn on anyone here and the pack instinct sets in.

I think you've been unfairly victimised. It's ridiculous to think that you've got some hidden agenda. People only have to read your posts on my site, The Truth about Maharaji and look at the ashram section and read the posts by 'Anon' (which was your previous name) and they can see that you're hardly Maharaji's apologist.

One thing I do disagree with you on although it's not something I consider very important; that is your hopes that Maharaji will listen to reason and turn around to reconsider his position.

I don't personally think Maharaji's worth the effort. He's just a con man, pure and simple. He would have no idea of your high ideals and standards, Patrick.

Anyway Patrick, if it were to come down to a fight here, I would be on your side and offer you my full support.

.. Dave

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Date: Thurs, Mar 29, 2001 at 16:22:34 (GMT)
From: Friend of Patrick
Email: None
To: Patrick Wilson
Subject: My position since I posted that report.
Message:
It is with sadness I note the deterioration of the quality of the forum over the last few datys.This right after a brief period when meaningful discussions, insights, thoughtful and thought provoking posts were so plentiful.
There is a grave danger that those who remain posting are creatting their own cult, albeit the inverse of the one they left.
Maharaji still being the focus, where instead of singing his praises, one must slag him off, the ex-honchos are the new honchos and the rest toe the party line on what's allowed to be said.
I was the one who told Patrick I'd heard M had read the forum on occasion and his brave-faced response. This I did after reading some post of Donner's where he doubted anybody would have the guts to relay any content to M let alone M himself ever taking a look.
That this could turn into Patrick being an APOLOGIST
naughtily writing about Rawats reform in pompous pious tones of hushed devoutedness,is a bit of a stretch.
We're all human beings trying to make some sense of our existence.This forum has allowed everyone who once counted on Maharaji to 'help' us in doing that the opportunity to evaluate whether any involvement with him is or was worth it.
It woul be a shame if people who would like to clarify their feelings about Maharaji, like Erika for instance, were put off from using the forum by its being monopolized solely by certified Maharaji haters ..
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Date: Fri, Mar 30, 2001 at 17:24:27 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Friend of Patrick
Subject: Please, certify me as an 'M Hater'
Message:
It woul [sic] be a shame if people who would like to clarify their feelings about Maharaji, like Erika for instance, were put off from using the forum by its being monopolized solely by certified Maharaji haters ..

Oh yeah, baby! I AM an M Hater and proud of it. Am I a Prem Pal Singh Rawat hater? Who knows? Never really met the guy. But M and everything he stands for? Did you read his latest satsang above? You fucking well bet I hate him. He's a blight on humankind. And I've NEVER used that expression in my life!

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Date: Fri, Mar 30, 2001 at 15:46:47 (GMT)
From: donner
Email: None
To: Friend of Patrick
Subject: My position since I posted that report.
Message:
not sure about m haters...but generally agree with you about our tone and being civil and open to others coming on and working with them if genuine.
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Date: Thurs, Mar 29, 2001 at 23:39:54 (GMT)
From: Brian
Email: brian@ex-premie.org
To: Friend of Patrick
Subject: Don't worry
Message:
In the 4 years that the forum has been online the conversation and tone have swung from one extreme to another - driven by the swinging 'group-mood' of the people posting at the time. It always to finds its center.

Right now, there is a much larger 'stable' population to help offset those of us who still swing at times.

But nobody attempting to deal with their own inner conflicts after leaving the cult will find everything that they need at any given point on the forum. It's useful to the process, but it's not a cure-all. Most of the hard work is done off-line and alone.

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Date: Fri, Mar 30, 2001 at 18:47:01 (GMT)
From: donner
Email: None
To: Brian
Subject: Don't worry
Message:
thanks for that insight and background
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Date: Thurs, Mar 29, 2001 at 17:42:28 (GMT)
From: bill
Email: None
To: Friend of Patrick
Subject: The unconcious oneness is too blame!
Message:
Buddha never did figure out how the unconcius oneness downloaded
human nature to us while maintaining it's unconcious state and didnt know that a part of itself had somehow escaped and was in humans like those here that are careening from cults to anticults to moodswings to moon related moodswings to moodswings based on factors such as pre or post morning coffee, pre or post sex,
lack of sleep, or general enragement over present day buddha's
trying to guide us back to the unconcious oneness when it cant be done because there IS no unconcious oneness in the first place!
Why shouldnt we be bonkers somedays??
No need to lament that we are nuts!
Enjoy it.
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Date: Thurs, Mar 29, 2001 at 16:59:40 (GMT)
From: Katie H.
Email: None
To: Friend of Patrick
Subject: Thank you, but please don't generalize
Message:
I very much appreciate you posting and confirming the report - not to mention your telling Patrick about it in the first place. I was one of those people who did not believe that M would EVER read this site, particularly the forum. (If you were M, would you?)

However, the remarks about Patrick W. being a possible apologist were made by only ONE person here (as far as I can tell). This is a public forum and things like this happen. I think the accusation is ridiculous, and so do many other people here. Please give us some credit.

Thanks, and hope you'll post again.

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Date: Thurs, Mar 29, 2001 at 16:34:10 (GMT)
From: Sir Dave
Email: None
To: Friend of Patrick
Subject: Why tar everyone with the same brush?
Message:
I also think that the recent attacks on Patrick are ridiculous and unfounded. But if you look, you'll see that the attacks have only come from two people, three at the most.
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Date: Thurs, Mar 29, 2001 at 16:31:03 (GMT)
From: Richard
Email: None
To: Friend of Patrick
Subject: Patrick W and Friend of Patrick and....
Message:
Just give it a moment or two for the smoke to clear. With all of the truth being told recently, there has been a huge amount energy released in the form of both inspiration as well as squabbling. Once the smoke and dust clears from this 'blast' of revelation and insight, some good work can be done.

Thank you Patrick W for your efforts on our behalf and your well intentioned posts. Keep participating. It makes us all stronger.

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Date: Thurs, Mar 29, 2001 at 16:27:40 (GMT)
From: Marianne
Email: delores@gofree.indigo.ie
To: Friend of Patrick
Subject: Thanks for this post
Message:
While I do not agree that the forum is on the verge of turning into its own cult, I appreciate your post, Friend of Patrick. I especially appreciate you showing up to verify what you said to Patrick. Thank you very much.


Marianne

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Date: Thurs, Mar 29, 2001 at 13:35:44 (GMT)
From: Connie
Email: None
To: Patrick Wilson
Subject: My position since I posted that report.
Message:
Patrick

I read all your posts, and each one I have found sensitive, intelligent and clear. Some have brought tears to my eyes. They have helped me greatly.

I don't really understand what lead to your decision to delete your journey or your questioning whether to continue posting or not. Everyone's intepretation of things here, including mine, seems to be so different. I am still getting used to it.

If you leave, I hope it is only for a short time, until you come back and again post, IMO, your unique valued perspective.

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Date: Thurs, Mar 29, 2001 at 13:15:38 (GMT)
From: bill
Email: None
To: Patrick Wilson
Subject: wow, Anon, that must have been quite a lunch!..nt
Message:
dfhj
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Date: Thurs, Mar 29, 2001 at 14:04:58 (GMT)
From: bill
Email: None
To: bill
Subject: Anon
Message:
Hi Anon,
Somehow I miss all the most contencious posts it seems!
Too Many posts and not enough time makes for a hit and miss forum visit.
I didnt know but I bet you did, about a coming Magazine article?
I think your journey and posts might be as useful to others as they were to me.

Whoever is pissing you off, maybe they are having a bad day?
I dont know...it is a hot site sometimes!
That is kind of big news about the Magazine article.

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Date: Thurs, Mar 29, 2001 at 12:43:16 (GMT)
From: Katie H
Email: None
To: Patrick Wilson
Subject: My position since I posted that report.
Message:
Dear Patrick,
I hope you will consider continuing to post here, and re-consider your postition about removing your journey, which has been helpful to a lot of people. Could you perhaps table the decision for a week? It's been a rough week here, and I think a lot of people have said or done things that they might have not done otherwise.

I understand what you mean about the rudeness and being accused of insincerity. The same things have happened to me on this forum, mostly because of my non-hardline attitude towards premies, and, yes, it does make one not want to participate here (and I have taken some breaks for my own sanity.) I do not see this as a 'growing trend' - in fact, I think the forum is getting more civil. But perhaps this has not happened to you personally here before.

I very much appreciate your posts here, and I think most of the other people here do too. And I do not think you are an apologist, a collaborator, or whatever (frankly, I think that is a ridiculous accusation).

Take care,
Katie

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Date: Thurs, Mar 29, 2001 at 12:42:35 (GMT)
From: JHB
Email: None
To: Patrick Wilson
Subject: Stick around, please!
Message:
Patrick W,

I hope you stay. As you know I also received your post about revealing personal addresses, and it did annoy me that I couldn't see the other recipients, but it's no big deal. I hope you and Brian can make up.

I also think Pat Conlon is getting a bit hard-line (sorry about talking about you Pat in the third person!), and a little more tolerance for the variety of human expression here would be welcome. Trolls are mythical characters - the people who post here, whatever their motives, are human. Engage them or don't engage them, trust them or don't trust them, but remember they are human like all of us.

John.

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Date: Thurs, Mar 29, 2001 at 12:20:13 (GMT)
From: Dermot
Email: None
To: Patrick Wilson
Subject: My position since I posted that report.
Message:
Patrick

As far as I'm concerned there's room enough here for people of all persuasions.

I look at like this. An Ex-premie is somenone who used to be a sincere premie of Rawat and who is now free of that allegiance deep down in their heart of hearts. That's it really. That, in many cases, is about all we'll have in common . In some cases we'll have more in common. But that is the bottom line. I once was a premie, now I'm not a premie.

Whatever you come up with with your sources. I'd like to see it and read it. Whether you or someone else believes this that or the other is of no matter to me (ultimately). I'm 50 soon ....with a bit of luck I'll have 20 or 30 or more years left(touch wood) but that isnt a long time.....I aint got time to piss about with another ' movement' I had most of my adult life with DLM/EV. However I would like to know the real story of what was and is going on in the movement that conned me for so long.

Also I have a lot of friends who are still premies ( though I havent seen any for a long while). I like , respect and care about a lot of them. If they decide to stay with Rawat till they die, so be it. It's their choice......I won't like or dislike them any more or less or whatever. I'd prefer it if all the premies found out what a hypocrite , and ultimately what a charlatan m was and is but whether that is a realistic proposition......at this stage I haven't got a clue.

Just out of interest though I'd like to ask you and M Dettmers an open and honest question and hope one or both of you can give me an answer. ......What do you realistically hope to achieve by contacting Glen, Raja Ji et al .....I'm not saying you should or shouldt do it ....I'm curious......you expect them to do what?
Concievably one of em may report everything verbatim to m but Donner has said for years and years whenevr m was taken to a certain point he couldnt hack it and returned to the big devotional thing. I used to be a catholic ......then I used to be a premie.....Idont want or need devotion per se anymore .....so what do you hope to ' negotiate'.....I genuinely dont get it.

Best Regards

Dermot

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Date: Thurs, Mar 29, 2001 at 20:55:15 (GMT)
From: Francesca
Email: None
To: Dermot
Subject: I agree. What's the point of talking to Raja Ji
Message:
I'm really glad I wasn't a PAM, because I have no bridges to burn with these people on a personal basis. I knew Bhole Ji and Sat Pal as a small raggedy crew of the 'end of Bhole Ji's band' members and a few other monmots and excommunicants from the LA circle of PWKs, but that was years ago and I made my break by fading away.

I like Richard's logo -- just walk away.

--f

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Date: Thurs, Mar 29, 2001 at 11:34:01 (GMT)
From: Sir Dave
Email: None
To: michael donner
Subject: care?
Message:
It's remarkable that once Maharaji is taken off the pedestal in one's mind, he just appears like any other con merchant and the feeling about him is pretty neutral.

My view is that the people who are hoping that Maharaji will come clean and transform his mission, they must still be holding a candle for him in their minds/hearts. I guess that's natural since they've been his devotees for so many years. They're still his potential devotees, if only he would straighten up his act.

Personally, I couldn't bare to listen to another word he said. I think he wrecked a potentially beautiful thing. In the seventies there was a movement of people who had received k and if they had been left to their own devices, without the 'leadership' of Maharaji, a lot of good could have come of it.

When the ashrams were abandoned in about 1976, there were communities of premies. These weren't fanatics or weird, synchronised cult people, they were just ordinary people who had some similar ideals and aims (very different to Maharaji's). Had they been left to expand and grow, with those intimate evening getogethers in people's living rooms which were called 'satsang' but were more like group therapy or sharing, I think only the best of things would have resulted.

If we had taken Maharaji out of the equation back then, the people who had received knowledge would have grown together and individually, in a natural way and only good could have resulted from it.

Unfortunately, Maharaji destroyed all that. But to answer your question. I want or expect nothing from Maharaji.

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Date: Fri, Mar 30, 2001 at 02:59:43 (GMT)
From: donner
Email: None
To: Sir Dave
Subject: care?
Message:
right on sir dave
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Date: Thurs, Mar 29, 2001 at 17:40:45 (GMT)
From: Selene
Email: None
To: Sir Dave
Subject: meeting and sharing
Message:
That was the whole thing for me really, community. I used to feel so frustrated that I had young children and couldn't fully focus on those festivals, blah blah.

Now I see it was a very fortunate thing for me because once the community spirit left there was nothing left except M talking and that didn't do it for me.
Not sure about the knowledge thing though, I still don't think he gave me anything. I used to get more out of my daily 2 hour improv dance classes. And I am fairly sure that I'd breathe even if I hadn't sat in a room and gotten initiated.

It's hard to imagine M doing anything that would equate to an amends and I'm not even bothering to think about that until I see some reason to.

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Date: Thurs, Mar 29, 2001 at 10:17:24 (GMT)
From: AJW
Email: None
To: michael donner
Subject: care alright
Message:
Hi Mike,

I think if he really does decide to get down off his throne, the first thing he'll need is psychiatric care and counselling.

He's been worshipped as God Almighty since he was a little boy and this has obviously fucked him up.

It may be a couple of years before he's in healthy enough shape to open that Luxury Used Car Mart on the Pacific Coast Highway.

Anth who is only joking in the last paragraph.

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Date: Fri, Mar 30, 2001 at 03:00:59 (GMT)
From: donner
Email: None
To: AJW
Subject: care alright
Message:
exactly...years of therapy
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Date: Thurs, Mar 29, 2001 at 08:38:02 (GMT)
From: Pat Conlon
Email: None
To: michael donner
Subject: care? Whether Rev Rawat reforms or not? No!
Message:
Thanks Mike for posting that. It was like a shot in the arm or a breath of fresh air. Having your calm, serious voice here has been a very pleasant development. And thank you for bringing the committee back to the agenda at hand.

I have been thinking the same thing since the rumors were posted. I also have been thinking, is this rumor wishful thinking on the part of a sincere church-lady or a deliberate leak of disinformation by a diehard ''businessman'' like Glen Whittaker? but that's another subject.

You said: ''What do you think about what we hope for and expect from m?''

I don't expect anything from Mr Rawat and have no right to expect anything from anybody except those with whom I have entered into a contract. I have severed mine with Rev Rawat and released him from his contractual obligations to me because I no longer need the product or service that I contracted for and I prefer doing business with straight-dealers.

Neither do I hope for anything from him. I do however hope something FOR him. I hope that he will one day be happy and at peace with himself without either delusions of grandeur or ghosts of dead fathers and other superstitions and illusions to hound him.

I wish him well as I wish all people well.

On a less personal note: I would hope that he straightens things out and speaks respectfully, honestly and as an equal to the premies and apologizes for the mess that he has made and gives back all the money he stole from the ashram premies and has wasted on his whims and silly schemes.

But I will not be inviting him to sit on a committee of democratic and civilized men of goodwill any time soon. He needs some remedial education - perhaps a Rhodes scholarship and a dose of Platonism - before he will be able to engage in any serious discussions with sensible men and women.

But I'll settle for him making a publicly broadcast confession to the pope in St Peter's Piazza or whatever it's called.

That's a joke, Salam.

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Date: Thurs, Mar 29, 2001 at 13:04:35 (GMT)
From: Lester
Email: None
To: Pat Conlon
Subject: care? Whether Rev Rawat reforms or not? No!
Message:
Firstly, glad to see you posting Pat - I much appreciated your welcome to me when I first posted, and was concerned at your recent reactions to things going on in the Forum. As such I really concur with what you say about Mike's message and how it has brought a focus and air of calm back to the Forum.

For me , Mike's comments tie in with LA-ex's post about the reasons for joining DLM in the first place.Trying to look back over all those years to 1971, I seem to remember myself as young, impressionable, naive, idealistic, seeking for the 'Truth' etc. etc. who happened to come across Maharaji (I remember at the time saying to a friend how glad I was that I hadn't come across Hare Krishna first, because I 'd have had to had the haircut - shows how much a discerning person I was). And he wooed me: light of a 1000 suns (appealing idea), concept of Satguru (could you afford not to follow), mystique of the 'secret knowledge', world peace movement and so on. And I was kept there over the years by awe of the Master (or my concept of him), fear, guilt, lack of real introspection, lazy thinking, peer pressure and probably a sense of there's nothing better out there. But mainly, the thing that kept me in was that I believed I was dealing with the latest incarnation of the true master.

The Ex-premie site enabled me to see through this and stripped away the myth. I'd stopped active involvement months before, but the vestiges remained (and much stronger than I imagined). But as soon as it became clear that Maharaji has got feet of clay - I know some of you would be stronger than that! - there was nothing left, except an organisation which I felt no affinity for and despised much of the time, and a set of meditation techniques which sometimes I find a little calming.But as many of you have said, I could have read these in a book in any case. This realisation was directly due to the Forum.

So if M was to apologise/reform or whatever, as far as I am concerned (from a purely personal point of view) it would make no difference at all. He has nothing to offer me, he is an irrelevance, and of course he will never think to compensate the hurt and deceit for which he is responsible. I read on the site how hurt some people have been, and of course that puts a different spin on it than I have described, and I can only respect those other feelings. For me, I have come out more or less unscathed (I think). What I see is how much I allowed my life to be retarded by falling for the whole show for so long. When I was a new premie, I used to think that I had the wisdom of lifetimes - now I realise how lazy I was in just absorbing and regurgitating his so simplistic view of the world and my life. I guess I hardly had my own views and opinions, cos I didn't need them to thrive in his domain (just the opposite, in fact, they would have got in the way). Now I feel I'm in remedial class, with a lot of growing and learning to do.

So it's time to reconstruct, move forward - and that process started months ago and it's good. And that's where the Forum can be so strong. I beleive that most premies will never be able to see through what they are involved in by people offering a logical argument against its validity, because subconsciously they feel that they have so much to lose - such arguments are confronting, but can easily be dismissed by the non-analytical devotee.And we all know it, most premies do not and will not analyse what they are involved in or doing. But when the myth of the Master is exploded by honest witness statements of his hypocrisy and double standards and self-seeking mission, the rest just falls away and you are left thinking 'How could I ever have been so stupid for so long?'

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Date: Fri, Mar 30, 2001 at 05:46:51 (GMT)
From: Pat Conlon
Email: None
To: Lester
Subject: Thanks for that long post Lester - terrific
Message:
And I nearly DID join the hairless Krishnas - oh my god.

You said: ''How could I ever have been so stupid for so long?''

It was not stupidity. Ignorance of the facts maybe but not stupidity. You can see here that some of the smartest most wonderful people in the world were suckered and loyalty and idealism kept them in.

Some saw through it faster than others. I always was a slow learner but a thorough learner and a lesson once learned by me needs never to be repeated. I don't care if he reforms.

Good to have you here, Lester.

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Date: Thurs, Mar 29, 2001 at 13:09:54 (GMT)
From: Dermot
Email: None
To: Lester
Subject: Good post Lester ! (nt)
Message:
zz
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Date: Thurs, Mar 29, 2001 at 08:32:35 (GMT)
From: Brian Smith
Email: None
To: michael donner
Subject: You are absolutely right donner
Message:
There is nothing in it any more for me. He has no leadership skills no real functional organization that could facilitate any worthwhile contribution to the world.

He really is rather inept and ineffectual at spreading knowledge, his attrition rate would be an embarrassment to any other CEO anywhere else when it comes to crunching numbers.

A public acknowledgement to those that he has harmed over the years remains a remote possibility, even if he did make ammends, I doubt that it would stop him from continuing to perpetrate his myth.

The only logical recourse we as individuals can take is to process the many unresolved issues through our own efforts and means. The forum is a good place to get in touch with our individual and collective concerns and start walking the path towards recovery.

He could do nothing to atone for the years of confusion and abuse of power that he has yielded all these years.

The one thing that would make me happy would be if he renounced the world, gave up his many homes, yacht, airplanes, sex toys, booze and cigarettes, stripped down to a loin cloth, with only a beggers bowl for a possesion and wandered the ganges riverbank for the rest of his life.

Fat chance that he would ever do anything even remotely spiritually redeeming like that!

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Date: Thurs, Mar 29, 2001 at 07:43:24 (GMT)
From: Daneane
Email: None
To: michael donner
Subject: care?
Message:
Why should you expect anything from him? Why think about what he could do to be or become someone you would once again follow? Seems to me the root of the problem is thinking you need to follow anyone. You said it yourself...its about your friends and making a life you can sleep at night with.
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Date: Thurs, Mar 29, 2001 at 14:07:31 (GMT)
From: bill
Email: None
To: Daneane
Subject: Great post Donner, you too Daneane...nt
Message:
sfgsh
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Date: Thurs, Mar 29, 2001 at 07:00:12 (GMT)
From: Mercedes
Email: None
To: michael donner
Subject: Ditto!!!!!!! NT
Message:
ss
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Date: Thurs, Mar 29, 2001 at 06:54:17 (GMT)
From: Rick
Email: None
To: michael donner
Subject: care?
Message:
I think old mahamoohoo belongs at the back of the bus for a very long time. No more nuthin' for that sucker til many moons pass. There are plenty of others to steer the big ship of the 'planet' and bump heads about all the highfalutin things that need doin'.

And like you aluded to, Mike, the mahagooglygoo hasn't exactly established himself in any realm but his own dirty cult... and that doesn't carry much weight around 'town'.

So, he could say he's sorry. That would be nice, mostly for himself. Unless he's got lots of cash, in which case he could make some form of amends.

And admitting his fraudelance as a guru might help many people who haven't fished themselves out of the muck yet.

But as far as any residual status for the poncey guru... forget it.

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Date: Thurs, Mar 29, 2001 at 09:38:22 (GMT)
From: Marianne
Email: None
To: donner
Subject: Justice
Message:
Look, I don't expect anything from this guy. I've been away from it for so long the idea of having anything to do with him or his fecking cult does not even enter my mind.

But, what do I want to happen, in my wildest dreams? My sentiments run along the same theme as Brian Smith's above. But I have very specific ideas about what I'd like to see.

In big federal criminal fraud cases, where someone is found guilty or pleads guilty, the government often forces the guilty party to disgorge improperly obtained funds. I would like Captain Rawat to give up all his improperly obtained funds. And the government considers profits made from funds initially improperly obtained to be wrongly obtained as well. The same should apply here. Abi, Susan and the other victims of sexual abuse by mahatmas, Catpain Rawat, AND OTHER OFFICIALS OF DLM/EV, should all be compensated for their pain and suffering, lost life opportunities, etc. Those who were kicked out of the ashrams with not a dime to their names should be compensated. Those whose health was damaged by forced slave labor in various 'divine' enterprises should be compensated. Those who developed mental impairments, or whose pre -existing mental difficulties were exacerbated by involvement in the cult, should be compensated. Those who were convinced to give up inheritances, or personal or real property to the cult, should be compensated. Those who suffered emotional and physical abuse by Captain Rawat or those working for him should be compensated.
Those who were fraudulently convinced to give monthly donations to the cult should be compensated.

The guy should be forced to go somewhere and concentrate on his breath for a few decades, and realize how truly beautiful it is. Stripped of all the trappings of wealth he's accumulated. Yeah, go tell us how to enjoy life when you have nothing but the clothes on your back, Catpain Rawat.

Oh, and I'd like him to explain about the recent shredding of documents too. But of course, that will be someone else's fault, won't it?

Marianne

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Date: Thurs, Mar 29, 2001 at 19:46:13 (GMT)
From: Pat Conlon
Email: None
To: Marianne
Subject: Justice - thank you, Marianne NT
Message:
l
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Date: Thurs, Mar 29, 2001 at 11:17:38 (GMT)
From: janet
Email: None
To: Marianne
Subject: Justice-i stand with YOU. this is what I want 2 c
Message:
i want all that you delineated, and to see him while away some years in prison for his crimes. and perhaps to add a condition to his sentence that he is forbidden to adress groups for the rest of his life.
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Date: Thurs, Mar 29, 2001 at 10:24:41 (GMT)
From: Tonette
Email: None
To: MariannE
Subject: Way to go Marianne
Message:
My sentiments exactly.

You're a lawyer, do you think that could ever happen?

Tonette

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Date: Thurs, Mar 29, 2001 at 16:50:38 (GMT)
From: red butler
Email: None
To: Tonette
Subject: dream 19 recycled...
Message:
His eyes were open but not yet comprehending much. He ran his tongue across his teeth, and there was a raw gap in the front that was new. Of course, his head was pounding and his throat was parched, but what was that sound? The high pitch whine so close by made him think of a helicopter blade grabbing at air, struggling to reach lift speed. When was that?

Mostly though, the noisy darkness scared him. He felt a breeze where there shouldn't be one and suddenly realized his pants, christ! even his underpants where gone. Slowly, he rose to his feet, stumbling over beer bottles and sterno cans. He brushed away the crusty film staining his chilled buttocks, and dimly thought of satin sheets and the roar of ocean waves. Where was that...?

From the railroad yard came the faint glimmer of dawn and the greasy little Indian man was able to take stock of himself. Looking around dazedly, he found his trousers in a pile. 'At least they're dry,' he thought. They might even pass for clean in the dark, though he knew the strong ammonia smell would give him away. But nobody would give a shit at the mission. 'Mission', the word rattled noisily in his sick, addled brain. Something about 'mission.' What was that...?

Slowly he made his way up the bank to the freeway shoulder. Cars whizzing by in their rush hour frenzy dizzied him even further. 'Gotta remember this place,' he promised himself. 'Not that crowded, and pretty safe, though the company was a little rough. It ain't Malibu, but not bad for East LA,' he thought.

'Malibu,' the word haunted him. 'Ah fuck it” He couldn't remember that stuff any more but he did remember some bottles he stashed by the Safeway dumpster last night. He was all right. He was fine. And the beer he'd by from the bottle deposit would be just the way to start his day...

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Date: Fri, Mar 30, 2001 at 12:16:55 (GMT)
From: Rick
Email: None
To: red butler
Subject: well done, red butler BRAVO nt
Message:
nt
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Date: Fri, Mar 30, 2001 at 20:58:12 (GMT)
From: Susan- Even better the
Email: None
To: Rick
Subject: second time around! nt
Message:
nt
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Date: Thurs, Mar 29, 2001 at 17:32:09 (GMT)
From: Selene
Email: None
To: red butler
Subject: good to see you Red Butler
Message:
He could always migrate north to Booneville.
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Date: Thurs, Mar 29, 2001 at 17:49:36 (GMT)
From: bill
Email: None
To: Selene
Subject: our own Hunter S Thompson....nt
Message:
dfgs
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