Forum V: Archive
Compiled: Wed, Apr 04, 2001 at 14:21:22 (GMT)
From: Mar 27, 2001 To: Apr 03, 2001 Page: 2 Of: 5


Dermot -:- When Mr Rawat saves face -:- Sat, Mar 31, 2001 at 09:52:52 (GMT)
__ Pat Conlon -:- Taking the high road, Patrick W -:- Sat, Mar 31, 2001 at 19:13:38 (GMT)
__ Patrick W -:- When Mr Rawat saves face -:- Sat, Mar 31, 2001 at 13:34:12 (GMT)
__ __ Kelly -:- When Mr Rawat saves face -:- Sat, Mar 31, 2001 at 15:26:59 (GMT)
__ __ Jerry -:- Walking from God -:- Sat, Mar 31, 2001 at 14:28:31 (GMT)
__ __ Jim -:- Sorry, Patrick, something about this irks me -:- Sat, Mar 31, 2001 at 14:16:41 (GMT)
__ __ __ Patrick Wilson -:- Sorry, Patrick, something about this irks me -:- Sat, Mar 31, 2001 at 18:02:42 (GMT)
__ __ Dermot -:- Excellent Patrick... -:- Sat, Mar 31, 2001 at 13:53:44 (GMT)

Abi -:- Service and compensation: Some questions -:- Sat, Mar 31, 2001 at 02:18:00 (GMT)
__ janet -:- three answers to your Q's -:- Sat, Mar 31, 2001 at 04:36:08 (GMT)
__ __ Alan Fenstermacher -:- three answers to your Q's -:- Sat, Mar 31, 2001 at 05:52:28 (GMT)
__ __ __ Selene -:- we lost our jobs - read - livelihood -:- Sat, Mar 31, 2001 at 21:08:07 (GMT)
__ __ Abi -:- premie electrocuted while doing service -:- Sat, Mar 31, 2001 at 05:03:04 (GMT)
__ __ __ janet -:- premie electrocuted while doing service -:- Sat, Mar 31, 2001 at 05:51:06 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ sean -:- premie electrocuted while doing service -:- Sat, Mar 31, 2001 at 17:14:56 (GMT)
__ donner -:- Service and compensation: Some questions -:- Sat, Mar 31, 2001 at 03:22:27 (GMT)
__ __ Abi -:- Michael Dettmers can you help? -:- Sat, Mar 31, 2001 at 03:31:31 (GMT)
__ __ __ Michael Dettmers -:- Michael Dettmers can you help? -:- Sat, Mar 31, 2001 at 05:52:15 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Abi -:- PS -:- Sat, Mar 31, 2001 at 06:35:41 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Abi -:- thanks -:- Sat, Mar 31, 2001 at 06:15:39 (GMT)
__ Babs -:- Is M Judgmentproof? -:- Sat, Mar 31, 2001 at 03:10:49 (GMT)
__ __ Joy -:- Is M Judgmentproof? -:- Sun, Apr 01, 2001 at 04:35:04 (GMT)
__ __ __ Francesca -:- You've given a good example of the flip side ... -:- Sun, Apr 01, 2001 at 04:43:45 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Marianne -:- Lawsuit talk -:- Sun, Apr 01, 2001 at 09:51:58 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Joy -:- Lawsuit talk -:- Sun, Apr 01, 2001 at 16:40:31 (GMT)
__ __ Marianne -:- Is M Judgment proof? -:- Sat, Mar 31, 2001 at 07:18:19 (GMT)
__ __ __ Francesca -:- Agree -- lawsuits are not a cure-all -:- Sun, Apr 01, 2001 at 01:53:35 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Katie H -:- Thanks, Francesca and Marianne -:- Sun, Apr 01, 2001 at 02:13:21 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Francesca -:- Thanks for the kind thoughts -:- Sun, Apr 01, 2001 at 04:46:13 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Katie H. -:- Thanks for the kind thoughts -:- Sun, Apr 01, 2001 at 16:23:27 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Francesca -:- You're the second one who has recommended ... -:- Sun, Apr 01, 2001 at 16:53:29 (GMT)
__ __ Francesca -:- Not totally, I'm sure -:- Sat, Mar 31, 2001 at 05:52:24 (GMT)
__ Dermot -:- 'Rawats private property is theft' Abi:)) -:- Sat, Mar 31, 2001 at 02:41:54 (GMT)
__ Cynthia -:- Service and compensation: Some questions -:- Sat, Mar 31, 2001 at 02:38:14 (GMT)

Pat Conlon -:- EPO is a cult of anti-Indian white Jews -:- Fri, Mar 30, 2001 at 19:48:41 (GMT)
__ janet -:- this is hate speech. report it to his ISP -:- Sat, Mar 31, 2001 at 06:19:17 (GMT)
__ __ Pat Conlon -:- Troll gone Janet - thanks for blowing the whistle -:- Sat, Mar 31, 2001 at 08:51:34 (GMT)
__ Sir Dave -:- EPO is a cult of anti-Indian white Jews -:- Sat, Mar 31, 2001 at 02:30:55 (GMT)
__ __ Pat Conlon -:- Thanks Sir Dave for taking the time read my post -:- Sat, Mar 31, 2001 at 05:39:16 (GMT)
__ Jerry -:- Have you lost your way? -:- Sat, Mar 31, 2001 at 02:23:54 (GMT)
__ __ Pat Conlon -:- Have you lost your way? No, just being kind -:- Sat, Mar 31, 2001 at 05:35:11 (GMT)
__ __ __ sean -:- Have you lost your way? No, just being kind -:- Sat, Mar 31, 2001 at 05:54:31 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Pat Conlon -:- Ghandi's eldest son ended up hating him -:- Sat, Mar 31, 2001 at 06:13:20 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ sean -:- Ghandi's eldest son ended up hating him -:- Sat, Mar 31, 2001 at 16:18:58 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ cq -:- Little known fact about Gandhi - -:- Sat, Mar 31, 2001 at 16:06:02 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ sean -:- Little known fact about Gandhi - -:- Sat, Mar 31, 2001 at 16:20:57 (GMT)

Dermot -:- Someone tell me ...is'Raja ji' part of the con -:- Fri, Mar 30, 2001 at 19:18:30 (GMT)
__ Richard -:- When he spoke in Seattle, RJ talked about..... -:- Sat, Mar 31, 2001 at 00:26:40 (GMT)
__ __ Dermot -:- When he spoke in Seattle, RJ talked about..... -:- Sat, Mar 31, 2001 at 00:44:59 (GMT)
__ __ Pat Conlon -:- On the nose again, Richard NT -:- Sat, Mar 31, 2001 at 00:38:00 (GMT)
__ __ __ Richard -:- OK, a funny RJ 'darshan' story -:- Sat, Mar 31, 2001 at 00:58:36 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Dermot -:- Slightly OT weird darshan confrontaion. -:- Sat, Mar 31, 2001 at 01:18:19 (GMT)
__ Selene -:- it depends -:- Fri, Mar 30, 2001 at 23:40:07 (GMT)
__ __ sean -:- it depends -:- Sat, Mar 31, 2001 at 03:26:10 (GMT)
__ __ Dermot -:- Stormtroopers.....-:)) (nt) -:- Fri, Mar 30, 2001 at 23:42:54 (GMT)
__ AJW -:- Raja ji and the con. -:- Fri, Mar 30, 2001 at 21:57:04 (GMT)
__ __ Dermot -:- OK anth... -:- Fri, Mar 30, 2001 at 22:13:04 (GMT)
__ __ __ AJW -:- Dermot, you may well be right. -:- Fri, Mar 30, 2001 at 22:24:57 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Dermot -:- AJW....Benefit of the doubt -:- Fri, Mar 30, 2001 at 23:07:58 (GMT)
__ donner -:- Someone tell me ...is'Raja ji' part of the con -:- Fri, Mar 30, 2001 at 21:46:00 (GMT)
__ __ AJW -:- mike -:- Fri, Mar 30, 2001 at 22:03:10 (GMT)
__ __ __ donner -:- mike -:- Fri, Mar 30, 2001 at 22:23:12 (GMT)
__ jondon -:- There is an old saying... -:- Fri, Mar 30, 2001 at 20:03:36 (GMT)
__ __ moldy warp -:- There is another old saying... -:- Fri, Mar 30, 2001 at 21:43:35 (GMT)
__ __ __ moldy warp -:- Anth-read your post. I stand somewhat corrected nt -:- Fri, Mar 30, 2001 at 22:01:48 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ AJW -:- hi moldy -:- Fri, Mar 30, 2001 at 22:29:39 (GMT)
__ __ Pat Conlon -:- keep friends close but enemies even closer -:- Fri, Mar 30, 2001 at 20:19:08 (GMT)
__ Pat Conlon -:- Poor old Number Two Ji -:- Fri, Mar 30, 2001 at 19:50:56 (GMT)
__ __ AJW -:- Yeah but Pat, -:- Fri, Mar 30, 2001 at 22:09:12 (GMT)
__ __ __ Lester -:- AJW, I'm confused -:- Sat, Mar 31, 2001 at 06:33:27 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ AJW -:- AJW, I'm confused -:- Mon, Apr 02, 2001 at 08:57:13 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Jim -:- Lester, you're confused about being confused -:- Sat, Mar 31, 2001 at 21:44:16 (GMT)
__ __ __ Pat Conlon -:- Yeah Anth, I actaually like No 2 Ji when I met him -:- Sat, Mar 31, 2001 at 00:48:44 (GMT)
__ __ Francesca -:- I agree, Dermot and Pat n/t -:- Fri, Mar 30, 2001 at 19:54:09 (GMT)

Michael Dettmers -:- Raja Ji, Patrick W., care? etc. -:- Fri, Mar 30, 2001 at 16:51:38 (GMT)
__ Roger eDrek -:- This is gonna be a lame post, but... -:- Sat, Mar 31, 2001 at 20:45:55 (GMT)
__ __ Jim -:- Lame is right! -:- Sat, Mar 31, 2001 at 21:21:27 (GMT)
__ __ __ Roger eDrek -:- Well, sheesh to you, Jim -:- Sat, Mar 31, 2001 at 21:48:20 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Jim -:- This IS like a war crimes tribunal -:- Sat, Mar 31, 2001 at 22:01:35 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Roger eDrek -:- Damnit Jim, I don't care about. What about this.. -:- Sat, Mar 31, 2001 at 22:36:46 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Lester -:- Much more than a two bit player -:- Sun, Apr 01, 2001 at 08:18:09 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Pat Conlon -:- Lester, what do you mean Shri Raja Juju Ji -:- Sun, Apr 01, 2001 at 09:06:50 (GMT)
__ Katie H -:- Thanks, Michael - and a few words about blaming -:- Sat, Mar 31, 2001 at 16:17:17 (GMT)
__ bill -:- Raja Ji, Patrick W., care? etc. -:- Sat, Mar 31, 2001 at 10:23:59 (GMT)
__ Susan -:- thanks Michael -:- Fri, Mar 30, 2001 at 20:25:59 (GMT)
__ Francesca -:- Discussion NOT about Raja Ji is getting lost ... -:- Fri, Mar 30, 2001 at 20:03:24 (GMT)
__ __ Dermot -:- Discussion NOT about Raja Ji is getting lost ... -:- Fri, Mar 30, 2001 at 20:28:32 (GMT)
__ __ __ Jerry -:- Discussion NOT about Raja Ji is getting lost ... -:- Fri, Mar 30, 2001 at 22:13:24 (GMT)
__ __ __ JHB -:- How do you justify this claim? -:- Fri, Mar 30, 2001 at 21:29:58 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Dermot -:- How do you justify this claim? -:- Fri, Mar 30, 2001 at 22:01:24 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ JHB -:- How do you justify this claim? -:- Fri, Mar 30, 2001 at 22:15:27 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Dermot -:- How do you justify this claim? -:- Fri, Mar 30, 2001 at 23:00:49 (GMT)
__ Richard -:- Thank you for the update -:- Fri, Mar 30, 2001 at 19:12:46 (GMT)
__ Pat Conlon -:- Spin-control for Indian premies -:- Fri, Mar 30, 2001 at 18:16:05 (GMT)
__ __ Apologies R Us -:- Spin Control -:- Sat, Mar 31, 2001 at 01:44:49 (GMT)
__ __ __ Pat Conlon -:- to forgive is divine - too true - who're you? NT -:- Sat, Mar 31, 2001 at 04:59:03 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Gary Epton -:- to forgive is divine - too true - who're you? NT -:- Sat, Mar 31, 2001 at 20:19:47 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Pat Conlon -:- Oops, Gary, too many names. I'm not psychic NT -:- Sat, Mar 31, 2001 at 21:26:25 (GMT)
__ Ulf -:- Raja Ji, Patrick W., care? etc. -:- Fri, Mar 30, 2001 at 17:24:43 (GMT)
__ Jim -:- Oh, Michael -- what a pickle! -:- Fri, Mar 30, 2001 at 17:08:57 (GMT)
__ __ Michael Dettmers -:- Oh, Michael -- what a pickle! -:- Fri, Mar 30, 2001 at 17:30:07 (GMT)
__ __ __ Jim -:- Dilemna? No? Hmmmmm........... -:- Sat, Mar 31, 2001 at 03:11:05 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Michael Dettmers -:- Dilemna? No? Hmmmmm........... -:- Sat, Mar 31, 2001 at 06:26:15 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Jim -:- Raja Ji's different -:- Sat, Mar 31, 2001 at 14:00:09 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Cynthia -:- Jim...Re: Dettmers and Raja Ji... -:- Sat, Mar 31, 2001 at 20:11:09 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Dermot -:- Exactly Jim...like I said...it's messy (nt) -:- Sat, Mar 31, 2001 at 03:18:44 (GMT)
__ __ __ donner -:- Oh, Michael -- what a pickle! -:- Fri, Mar 30, 2001 at 18:42:18 (GMT)
__ __ __ Brian -:- Good for you -:- Fri, Mar 30, 2001 at 18:41:52 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Jim -:- Transparent-slam-against-Jim-time, Brian? -:- Fri, Mar 30, 2001 at 20:59:55 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Anonomousie -:- Is it Jim slamming time again?.....nt -:- Sat, Mar 31, 2001 at 10:33:39 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Dermot -:- Btw Brian -:- Fri, Mar 30, 2001 at 18:52:01 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Brian -:- I don't think so -:- Fri, Mar 30, 2001 at 19:50:51 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Dermot -:- Yep..you win on that one-:)) (nt) -:- Fri, Mar 30, 2001 at 19:55:53 (GMT)
__ __ __ Dermot -:- Why the fuck did you and PW -:- Fri, Mar 30, 2001 at 18:16:12 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Patrick W -:- Why the fuck did you and PW -:- Fri, Mar 30, 2001 at 19:23:23 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ And On Anand Ji -:- Why the eff did you and PW -:- Sun, Apr 01, 2001 at 15:21:20 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Dermot -:- Patrick -:- Fri, Mar 30, 2001 at 19:47:39 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Michael Dettmers -:- Why the fuck did you and PW -:- Fri, Mar 30, 2001 at 18:53:34 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ janet the scold -:- tsk! with no synchronization! see what happens? -:- Sat, Mar 31, 2001 at 08:26:30 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Pat Conlon -:- Mr Dettmers you are a honorable man -:- Fri, Mar 30, 2001 at 19:06:48 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ cq -:- Steady, Pat. Shades of Mark Anthony, no? (nt) -:- Fri, Mar 30, 2001 at 19:29:15 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Dermot -:- cq you're making me chuckle tonight-:)) (nt) -:- Fri, Mar 30, 2001 at 20:01:52 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Pat Conlon -:- I'm a dumb yank so I missed the joke (nt) -:- Fri, Mar 30, 2001 at 20:06:18 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Dermot -:- Michael Dett -:- Fri, Mar 30, 2001 at 19:04:09 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Marianne -:- Angry Irish lad -:- Fri, Mar 30, 2001 at 19:28:54 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Marianne -:- Angry Irish lad -:- Fri, Mar 30, 2001 at 20:41:33 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Dermot -:- oops sorry Marianne, from Dermot 'thick Mick'(nt) -:- Fri, Mar 30, 2001 at 20:53:49 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Marianne -:- Thick Mick -:- Fri, Mar 30, 2001 at 21:38:08 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ cq -:- old habits die hard ... -:- Fri, Mar 30, 2001 at 18:40:14 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ JHB -:- Why the fuck did you and PW -:- Fri, Mar 30, 2001 at 18:22:40 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ DERMOT -:- John....NO ! -:- Fri, Mar 30, 2001 at 18:30:22 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Pat Conlon -:- Dermot, the same thought crossed my mind -:- Fri, Mar 30, 2001 at 18:36:14 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ donner -:- Dermot, the same thought crossed my mind -:- Fri, Mar 30, 2001 at 18:52:16 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Cynthia -:- donner, I'd bet RJ has read F5... -:- Fri, Mar 30, 2001 at 19:50:08 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Dermot -:- 99.9 % of course he's read this site !! (nt) -:- Fri, Mar 30, 2001 at 20:37:39 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ donner -:- 99.9 % of course he's read this site !! (nt) -:- Fri, Mar 30, 2001 at 21:48:21 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Dermot -:- 99.9 % of course he's read this site !! (nt) -:- Fri, Mar 30, 2001 at 22:32:16 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Pat Conlon -:- Yes, Donner, I am hardcore anti-gurujism -:- Fri, Mar 30, 2001 at 19:14:21 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ donner -:- Yes, Donner, I am hardcore anti-gurujism -:- Fri, Mar 30, 2001 at 21:59:59 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Dermot -:- Donner ...can u read ????? -:- Fri, Mar 30, 2001 at 18:58:24 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ donner -:- Donner ...can u read ????? -:- Fri, Mar 30, 2001 at 22:02:51 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Dermot -:- Donner ...can u read ????? -:- Fri, Mar 30, 2001 at 22:54:03 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Francesca -:- My husband thought some people were name dropping -:- Fri, Mar 30, 2001 at 19:04:34 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Patrick Wilson -:- My husband thought some people were name dropping -:- Fri, Mar 30, 2001 at 22:52:52 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Pat Conlon -:- Patrick W, I concede defeat and bow to your -:- Sat, Mar 31, 2001 at 02:10:48 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Patrick Wilson -:- Patrick W, I concede defeat and bow to your -:- Sat, Mar 31, 2001 at 11:04:19 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Dermot -:- Pat C....why should Rawat save face???? -:- Sat, Mar 31, 2001 at 02:29:35 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Pat Conlon -:- The quality of mercy is not strained..... -:- Sat, Mar 31, 2001 at 05:07:00 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ bill--be hardline, only -:- when you lose your humor are you victimized..nt -:- Sat, Mar 31, 2001 at 10:45:21 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Dermot -:- Well said Patrick W ....BUT -:- Sat, Mar 31, 2001 at 00:33:22 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Francesca -:- Doing your own thing is a good idea ... -:- Fri, Mar 30, 2001 at 23:06:27 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ donner -:- My husband thought some people were name dropping -:- Fri, Mar 30, 2001 at 22:06:19 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Marianne -:- Agree w/Frannie re: repent/recant-nt -:- Fri, Mar 30, 2001 at 19:39:27 (GMT)
__ __ __ Jim -:- Oh, Michael -- what a pickle! -:- Fri, Mar 30, 2001 at 17:39:26 (GMT)
__ Francesca -:- It's not easy being friends with them -:- Fri, Mar 30, 2001 at 17:06:01 (GMT)

Wildflower -:- Life and Growth Beyond M -:- Fri, Mar 30, 2001 at 16:37:27 (GMT)
__ Babs -:- Current Practice -:- Sat, Mar 31, 2001 at 06:55:51 (GMT)
__ __ Wildflower -:- Current Practice -:- Sat, Mar 31, 2001 at 21:38:46 (GMT)
__ __ __ Francesca -:- Another good one is Thich Nath Hanh -:- Sun, Apr 01, 2001 at 07:23:50 (GMT)
__ __ __ Francesca -:- My friends have raved about that book also n/t -:- Sun, Apr 01, 2001 at 06:53:48 (GMT)
__ Pat Conlon -:- Hi, Wildflower, we sure have a lot of catching up -:- Sat, Mar 31, 2001 at 03:50:01 (GMT)
__ m and m donner -:- Life and Growth Beyond M -:- Sat, Mar 31, 2001 at 03:19:44 (GMT)
__ __ Wildflower -:- Life and Growth Beyond M -:- Sat, Mar 31, 2001 at 21:41:28 (GMT)
__ Francesca -:- Eclectic prescriptions -:- Fri, Mar 30, 2001 at 18:59:46 (GMT)
__ Gregg -:- Life and Growth Beyond M -:- Fri, Mar 30, 2001 at 17:53:23 (GMT)
__ __ Helen -:- Life and Growth Beyond M -:- Sat, Mar 31, 2001 at 22:27:03 (GMT)
__ __ __ Francesca -:- Love you Helen! Great post. -:- Sun, Apr 01, 2001 at 19:50:36 (GMT)
__ __ __ And On Anand Ji -:- Nice post, Helen (nnt) -:- Sun, Apr 01, 2001 at 18:28:52 (GMT)


Date: Sat, Mar 31, 2001 at 09:52:52 (GMT)
From: Dermot
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: When Mr Rawat saves face
Message:
And confesses with some lame duck excuse or other to his out and out hypocrisy…I wonder if (while he's on the subject of drugs, booze, sex & marriage, seeking wealth and material gain) he'll bother to mention how he counselled us all ( and I suppose the ashramites in particular) against blowing dope, drinking booze, getting married, having relationships with others apart from him, bothering to engage the world seriously ( apart that is from using it as a means to make money to give to him or travel to see him) ???

And when he's saved face and devout followers turn to his detractors and say' So where's the hypocrisy? He's come straight hasn't he? What's the big deal? Live and live brother/sister ! ' I guess all the years of bullshit will count for nothing. After all isn't that the way our 'teacher' taught us? If something doesn't fit previous satsangs and deliberations…..shift the goalposts…change the rules….it doesn't really matter. Everything except 'that experience' can be revised…..it's all a game ……we used to call it Lila now we call it …well now we call it whatever he wants us to call it. The Jagdeos and the 'fuckuanad ji with a hammer' can be sacrificed in the great scheme of things.

I guess also a new, perhaps slightly toned down method of fundraising will emerge. Perhaps, just satellite broadcasts ( it'll save on travelling expenses , save meeting anyone face to face ) and then I guess we can all live happily ever after.

Mr Rawat, his premies, ex-premies …everyone sugary buggery happy as larry. Can't wait for this new dawn brothers and sisters. Can't wait.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sat, Mar 31, 2001 at 19:13:38 (GMT)
From: Pat Conlon
Email: None
To: Dermot
Subject: Taking the high road, Patrick W
Message:
I'll answer you up here since you reposted your response to me from below. Allowing someone to save face usually benefits the forgiver not the forgiven. The forgiver takes the high-road, feels kind and merciful. The forgiven is not crushed and, if he has any decency, will retire modestly and lick his wounds.

But allowing arrogant people to save face often also gives them enough rope to really hang themselves. Rev Moonbeam is not irredeemably evil. I have seen the shy, insecure side of him once when alone but that was many years ago and he may have grown harder.

Last year an Indian gentleman in Berkeley (near San Francisco) was charged with importing under-age girls from his village in India for sex and indentured servitude. This was uncovered when one of the girls died of carbon monoxide poison in one of the hundreds of improperly maintained rental flats he owns.

A TV crew went to his village in India and discovered that he was called ''God'' by the poor villagers who sold their daughters to him. He had built a school and a clinic. In the US he was villified as greedy, immoral, corrupt and evil. Recently he agreed to a plea bargain and will not spend the rest of his life in prison as had been expected by his detractors.

The picture that emerged was of a bascially incompetent and stupid man who had made a lot of money buying up slums and who did not know how to handle either wealth or power in a civilized society.

The case reminded me so much of Rev Rawat. He really has set himself up too high, up above the law and above standards of common decency and he has done that out of ignorance and greed. When the time comes for him to be accountable I will be content to see him cut a plea bargain. He may save face but not in my eyes.

I don't want to make a scapegoat of him for my distaste for guruism. He is not the only perpetrator of this religious scam. I will simply continue to try to debunk all vendors of god and other mystic charlatans.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sat, Mar 31, 2001 at 13:34:12 (GMT)
From: Patrick W
Email: None
To: Dermot
Subject: When Mr Rawat saves face
Message:
'Bearing in mind all your efforts for building bridges and creating dialogue between premies and ex-premies etc let's for arguments sake say you are wholly successful in doing this ....ok?.....then what would be the result or lets say what would be the 'ideal' result in your view?

Why do you suppose that I have an ‘ideal’ result in mind – I don’t. Initially a possible best result would, in my view, be that Maharaji and Raja Ji, Instructors, EV staff and all the premies in the hierarchy from the top down, acknowledge that there are problems that should not be brushed under the carpet. Once that we all agree that there is are problems that should be addressed, then we can all move on to how to best resolve them.

For instance.....WHERE DO THE RAWATS BROS STAND IN ALL THIS? He continues to ply his trade with premie followers ? He is completely dis-credited ? The EV organisation is disbanded? Rape victims are compensated? .....I'd sincerley like to know what end view you,MD and others taking a proactive stance hope to ultimately achieve? Or maybe you don't see it in those terms....' anyway look forward to your reply. BTW were you always so controversial ....even as 'anon'? ;))

Yes I was. My honest answer is I don't have a vision of how this story develops or ends.
Clearly some people like Maranne (the lawyer) and maybe Jim have some ideas about this and can do their thing on the behalf of people who want material pay-back. That’s not my personal crusade though I acknowledge and empathise with those who feel that way.

I just believe that premies should know what goes on, that their safe world of restricted information, where they believe they need to ask no questions and simply wallow in and glorify the big Answer, could do with a little wake up call. A few home truths need to be known in my opinion. Maharaji should at the very least not be allowed to blame people for his mistakes and neither should anyone who supports him in this type of revisionism. A little education is needed. Education starts with knowing the facts. The facts are what we are trying to present here on Brian’s website.

People who are coming to him for knowledge should know the historical effects of the thing they are getting into. In short all the unhealthy cultic aspects of the thing need to have light shed upon them, and if any good remains then fine .

Re Raja Ji. I don't know him personally. I totally agree that his investment in the whole thing seems to have been partly about him enjoying the massive material benefits of being the Lord's brother. One of my pet disgusting memories is of doing service at Reigate. We had to polish the cars (the many expensive ones that Maharaji and Raja Ji kept there at the time). I had no money of my own, no car, no nothing and was engaged in devolving everything I had become into being one of Maharaji's moronic monks - a heinous requirement that I now view as having been a total waste of my time.

An expensively besuited Raja Ji rolled up in a sparkling blue Lambourghini Contache and then proceeded to discuss which mobile phone system and HiFi he wanted installed in his new plushest of the plush Range Rover (also parked in there) with Peter Lee or Jack. Talk about the lifestyles of the rich and famous – talk about chalk and cheese – talk about different rules for some than for others – talk about hierarchy – priviledge and the spoils of power. The whole scenario struck me in the gut as weird. Here was this guy having all this fun with cars, girls etc and yet we were consigned to the pits and eternal renunciation. I rationalised it then as we all did but now, it pisses me off hugely to think of all the fun I could have been having but didn’t -thanks to his brother's indoctrination. And yes, he supported this stuff from a high level -sure he is answerable too.

I suspect maybe it really bothered these guys that mere premies could have these things too. I remember a satsang of Maharaji's - when he was given a new BMW - where he screamed -'And you will never have one of these cars!' to the suitably humbled and fawning assembly - who had clubbed together effectively in the first place to provide him with this gift. You know I really think that he felt that premies did not deserve success in the world, money etc. and that he did. It was a clear put down. I now see this as being a rather a typical trait for his‘religious’ Indian type (without wanting to sound rascist) - I have a friend here who is a professor of hinduism, and he has lived for a long time in India and has a very good grasp of their psyche. (He was also once a premie) He told me that Indians like this are generally very impressed with money and ironically it means a lot more to them than the westerners who they like to accuse of being so materialistic.

My father, for example, was an English gentleman of manners, culture, ideals and substantial means, he however drove around in a beaten up old Austin and he had no interest in proving his worth by driving posh cars etc or wearing gaudy jewellery and fashionable suits. Conversely, Maharaji and his brother seemed wholly impressed with such displays of wealth.

As I said, I don’t know Raja Ji. When I was in the premie band scene, he never spoke to me, although I saw him a few times. I think he is quite a shy person. Apparently he is a very nice guy in many ways. He once showed some interest in my music and called me to request a record on vinyl – that’s all.

I actually met and got more of a personal feel for Maharaji himself. Again he struck me as quite shy in this off-stage situation (maybe this was an initial reserve whilst I was checked out- I don’t know) and yet as someone who was definitely the boss in his own realm. This was what impressed me more. I was once or twice alone with him but not for long unfortunately. Once at Reigate Yorum Weis wasted no time in hurling himself face down in the grass in Reigate to crawl up to Maharaji’s feet whilst M and I talked about sounds for the musical instruments that he was interested in. I recall that Maharaji glanced down for a moment – it was a bit odd although I did not get the impression that I was expected to follow suit fortunately.
Over time I was troubled that those around showed such fearful respect for him and could not understand why he did nothing to release them from this state. I came reluctantly to the conclusion that it suited him to have people frightened of him; and that bugged me.

There are of course other people close to Maharaji who have benefited from the wealth that he attracted. Notably his kids. They are undoubtedly getting a first rate education and living the lives of the rich and famous. For example his son apparemntly jetted recently to London courtesy of British Airways First Class – to sample the delights of the London Club scene. This sort of stuff is common knowledge and accepted by premies both here and in the USA. These kids have money. What they make of it God knows. I have heard variously that some of them think, or thought at some time that it was a cult. Certainly they don’t seem to embarrassed about it right now.

All I know is that at age 25 I was released from jail (ashram) to start my own life. Now at 44, I am doing better than many but I still have difficulties supporting my family that I would surely not have had if I had got going earlier. Of course others have expressed these types of resentments in varying degrees. So maybe Maharaji should offer people some financial recompense. I dunno. . Frankly I’m not sure I how I would feel about accepting something like this even if it were offered. As you have pointed out, there are many who have suffered far worse from the put downs – mentally - and what they are owed is totally unquantifiable. I want only to see real understanding to develop. It’s a mess in many ways.

As far as I’m concerned he can keep his planes, boats and money – it means nothing in the grand scheme of things - but he cannot deny us the right to remind him and his supporters of the bad side-effects of his past edicts –and he cannot stop my development as a spiritual being now.

Was I to suppose, when instructed to ‘Walk’ rather than remain to question him, that I should abandon all aspirations to know God, myself, my values? His implication seemed rather that , tail between legs, those who couldn’t take the heat should skulk off back to Hell and to their 'rathole' purposeless mundane lives of delusion and Mind Gratifiction. It’s have it ‘My Way’ or not at all. The parallels with Frank Sinatra increase.

Like I said, he probably takes the attitude that to make an omelette you make have to break a few eggs. That’s fine as long it’s not you who are the dumb egg – as many of us have discovered we were to our cost.

Incidently I don't have too much time today so could you read my post to Pat Conlon below which covers some of my feelings about all this - what the hell I'll paste it here too – I’m taking the kids swimming:



Pat Conlon Wrote:
I would prefer it if Rev Rawat could reform and ''not loose face'' at the same time, as you have put it.

I replied:
Thanks for taking the trouble to read my posts. I don't think that I actually said that I would prefer it that Maharaji didn't lose face. If you reread that bit I think you will see I was saying that that was what premies most definitely would prefer. Maybe we're driving at the same thing here though.

May be it would be appropriate and even good for Maharaji's soul that he indeed 'lose the faces' which have been scaring premies into all the damaging sorts of submissions we have seen. Underneath I'm sure he has a decent 'face', that is more humble and human that does not need adulation etc.

In the case of someone like Saddam Hussein one can envisage that he would rather die and take a bunch of people with him rather than 'lose face'.

My point is that premies certainly think that M is not in this category even if he has made some mistakes that have cost some people dearly. They think that he has also benefitted others and don't want this part of the equation overlooked.

I can understand this. Regarding my personal feelings of forgiveness. I am by no means full of forgiveness - I seem to be able to forget about the lost years etc when I am immersed in the present. From time to time something happens which reminds me of how miserable I was in the ashram -how scared I was by M's satsangs, how put down I was by his instructors etc. and a wave of injustice kicks in. That reaction is still very much there -which seems to be very much in the forefront of many people's minds here right now also -visa vi Dermot.

I have a friend who is in prison for Cocaine smuggling who shares a cell with a double murderer and hangs out with a cannibal. He is a premie and meditates hours every day. He wrote to me that he finds that even these people have a soft centre if you approach them with heart. I believe people should account to the society in which they live (including Maharaji) for their actions. It's a tricky balance to strike between punishing people harshly and offering them a chance to reform. I feel that the way of reform is the nobler way but sometimes I too think that the only way to deal with crazy destructive people is to destroy them.

My mission over the last few years here has been to not let that be forgotten or brushed under the carpet. Now if Maharaji would address this and apologise I would feel that some sort of justice had been done..



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Date: Sat, Mar 31, 2001 at 15:26:59 (GMT)
From: Kelly
Email: None
To: Patrick W
Subject: When Mr Rawat saves face
Message:
Patrick,
Thats a great post and I thoroughly agree with all you have had to say in previous posts about communication and keeping the channels open for dialogue and discussion, no matter how much we may disagree. We're all in the same boat, and we all have our crosses to bear. Please excuse the sweeping cliches, but they're generally true!
As a recent ex, I have been having many interesting and sometimes very distressing conversations with premies, including the odd PAM. The thing is, I still love these people and I respect their continued faith and loyalty to their 'Master', despite the fact that I do not share this, any more, in any way.
But, I'm not suddenly their enemy and at war! with them....I agree with you Patrick, we were all in this together, we shared an ideal...the ideal remains the same. The sincerity, the innocent, heartfelt sincerity with which we dedicated our lives to the search for truth, this I will never deny.
When M came into my life, I really thought that I was a disciple of the living Lord, I really did! 30 years later, I know differently, but back then, I bought it. Lock, stock and smoking barrel. Little did I know that the barrel was full of cognac! and hash!

But I tellya one thing, if I had known, I would have wanted in there. X rate me any day! The fact that the Scamster and his bro and friends were having all that fun, while I was sincerely trying to live up to the ideals, as presented to me, by said Scamster, and basically, arresting my developement in the process, pisses me off big-time!
Kelly

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Date: Sat, Mar 31, 2001 at 14:28:31 (GMT)
From: Jerry
Email: None
To: Patrick W
Subject: Walking from God
Message:
Was I to suppose, when instructed to ‘Walk’ rather than remain to question him, that I should abandon all aspirations to know God, myself, my values?

That's a good question. Let's suppose, for argument's sake, that Knowledge is the pathway to know God, and those who are coming to no such realization have a genuine desire to know God, they have that guileless heart that's required (to me that means having a genuine desire to know God, it doesn't mean 'removing all doubt' about those who claim to have the key to such knowledge, as I'm sure Maharaji would define it).

So what do you do when, after receiving Knowledge, you remain ignorant of God, and the only advice given is to take a walk? Where do you go then? Does Maharaji even care, this Perfect Master master of the age, or is he just happy to be done with you? How can someone who claims to have the keys to the kingdom be content to rid himself of true seekers who have failed to find what they're looking for? I guess the question would be, who's failed who here? And seriously, if there is a God, and Knowledge is the way to know him, should anybody who sincerely wants to know him be told to take a walk? There's something very not right about that.

How's about this for an answer to this dilemna? Maybe there is no God, and maybe that's why Knowledge doesn't 'work', and maybe that's why Maharaji can be content to tell those who haven't found God to take a walk, because he knows, perhaps through his own experience (or lack of), that there's nothing to be found.

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Date: Sat, Mar 31, 2001 at 14:16:41 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Patrick W
Subject: Sorry, Patrick, something about this irks me
Message:
Initially a possible best result would, in my view, be that Maharaji and Raja Ji, Instructors, EV staff and all the premies in the hierarchy from the top down, acknowledge that there are problems that should not be brushed under the carpet. Once that we all agree that there is are problems that should be addressed, then we can all move on to how to best resolve them.

It's like working with the Third Reich or something. Maharaji has no business being in business, period. No doubt none of this will ever happen anyway, but if somehow it did, I'm disgusted by the thought of any 'adjustments' or 'improvements' that allow him in any way to continue the charade of being an anything.

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Date: Sat, Mar 31, 2001 at 18:02:42 (GMT)
From: Patrick Wilson
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Sorry, Patrick, something about this irks me
Message:
It's like working with the Third Reich or something. Maharaji has no business being in business, period. No doubt none of this will ever happen anyway, but if somehow it did, I'm disgusted by the thought of any 'adjustments' or 'improvements' that allow him in any way to continue the charade of being an anything.

Ha Ha! That reminds me that I jokingly commented to Mike that he was like Lord Chamberlin going to see Hitler in the 30's! Clearly Hitler was not in the mood for compromise since he was on such a roll in his power trip- and he made Chamberlin look a fool for his inneffectual diplomacy. I don't really think that Maharaji represents quite the same sort of danger to humanity do you?
The thing is, if you want to put Maharaji out of business go right ahead. How are you going to do that? My preference is primarily that the facts are out -there is a watchdogeven, if you like -so that people can make their own minds up whether to do business with M.

Let me give you a topical analogy.
Here in the UK there was, until he recently drowned himself falling off his luxury yacht, a remarkably nasty piece of work called Robert Maxwell. This monstrous personage plundered his shareholders money and pensions and ruined many lives by his greed. He died before the could be held fully responsible for the mess he had caused. I visited his grave accidently when at the Mount of Olives in Jerusalem. (His wealth managed to secure him a nice little priviledged plot for eternity anyway).

So his son has been taking the flak for his part in the scam. He cannot do business in the UK with many people, basically because nobody will do business with him! Not because the law has put him out of business as many people think should have happened. So in some way justice is done. He's just a sad lonely guy.

I have no wish to see Maharaji made a martyr either. I think that the negotiation is not really a matter of accepting the sort of compromise you abhor. It is more a matter of
bursting the bubble of fear that exists and informing everybody that we don't buy the crap. Oh by the way Raja Ji is speaking this weekend to ze premoids I gather- wonder how he's feeling about all this. A little like the young Maxwell?
I wonder how these guys can face the public and still preach their righteous stuff, knowing that people are probably sitting there going 'yeah, but it's not as good as a good line of coke is it -nudge, nudge, wink wink'

Supper's ready -back later!

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Date: Sat, Mar 31, 2001 at 13:53:44 (GMT)
From: Dermot
Email: None
To: Patrick W
Subject: Excellent Patrick...
Message:
Thanks for your post ....I really appreciated it and could relate to practically all of it .....well all of it I suppose.

That's all I wanted to know mate and you expressed it with great eloquence hahah.

As you were writing it I was probably writing my swan song or 'temporary' swan song if there is such a thing.

Your little story of cleaning the cars for the Divine jet set was a riot.And your hopes for the future vis a vis the cult was very clear.

Thanks for taking the time and care to respond....hope you enjoyed the swimming.

If you're interested I've posted a temporary adieu above.

Cheers and Good Luck

Dermot.

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Date: Sat, Mar 31, 2001 at 02:18:00 (GMT)
From: Abi
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: Service and compensation: Some questions
Message:
Hi,
I was distressed to hear that a premie at Amaroo had a breakdown while doing service out there and it made me think about the whole issue of service. I know that in order to do service at Amaroo one has to sign a ten page confidentiality paper. Nothing which happens out there must be discussed.

What is someone had an accident doing service which had a short-term or long-term impact on their ability to work? How would Elan Vital deal with this? What sort of compensation would they be given? Would the ten page confidentiality paper they have to sign prohibit them from speaking out about this?

As far as I know there is no workers compensation for premies doing service. It is free labour and as far as I know there is no contract entered into which protects them. Is this true?

I know of a premie who was doing service many years ago and a wall fell on him crushing most of the bones in his body. He has been in chronic pain ever since. I know of another premie who damaged his back doing service at an Indian ashram and has suffered ever since. These premies have to pay their medical bills for injuries done while doing service. I'm sure there must be many other examples. I'd like to here about them.

Then there is the emotional harm experienced by being over-worked and treated with disrespect while doing service. And what about women doing service who are subjected to sexual abuse and offensive sexist remarks?

It seems to me that if Elan Vital honestly cared about the people who work for them for free then it would go out of its way to compensate those who have been harmed while doing service. Unless of course Elan Vital cares nothing for premies and is only interested in exploiting their labour. Serfs have no rights in a feudal system.

A spectre is haunting Elan Vital - the spectre of EPOism.
Rawats private property is theft.
Premies have nothing to lose but their chains.

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Date: Sat, Mar 31, 2001 at 04:36:08 (GMT)
From: janet
Email: None
To: Abi
Subject: three answers to your Q's
Message:
other people I knew of who suffered serious acidents while doing service:
in the Kittredge building lobby, while premie carpenters were redecorating the entry, there were two horrendous accidents involving the elevator, in which two different brothers waited for the doors to open in the lobby so they could move materials into the car, and each tme, the doors opened but the car was not there, and they fell into the open shaft. One of them touched the cable that fed the power to the car and was hideously electrocuted from the tips of his fingers that grasped the cable, all the way to his feet, which were still touching the threshold when he fell in and carried the current to ground.He lived to tell about it in 401 later. He as in a coma for many days in the burn unit. The other brother--Jack, I think, was his name, did not get burned or a shock but he fell to the bottom of the shaft and got hurt quite a bit.

your raising this issue, and the replies so far, make me think, among other things, that I never signed no steenkin paper, releasing any part of Maharaji's domain from liability! I never took the ashram vows, but i did service anywhere i was asked to. I worked in the Alive Kitchen and we had one guy accidentally get his hand pulled into the automatic vegetable chopper--that was no small thing. i ran the Shelter after Amherst because I was asked to, and damn straight if anything had happened to me, I would have been wide open to sue.
These idiots don't have the business sense to take out an insurance policy for their workers, and use some of that obscene income of Maharaji's, to pay the premiums, to take care of premies who do service at places like Amaroo or DECA or La Tierra Del Amor, and head off the situation before it happens. It's like becoming a mail order bride for some skinflint lovelorn millionaire, and not hashing out a prenuptial agreement, so that if he dies or divorces, you discover you get nothing!
I suppose ever since the power 80's, tho, all the affluent, worldly PWK's probably have their own insurance policies, which they pay for with their own incomes.
my, how the mighty have fallen. my, how the petty have risen.
if EV and MJ have the alacrity to read this, let us hope for humanitarian reasons, if not cynical ones, that they have the presence of mind to go take out such a policy before someone files a wrongful death suit.

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Date: Sat, Mar 31, 2001 at 05:52:28 (GMT)
From: Alan Fenstermacher
Email: alan@woodcon.com
To: janet
Subject: three answers to your Q's
Message:
I was in the Denver ashram doing construction work in and around the Kittregde building and I don't remember that (not that it it didn't happen, just that I don't remember it).

We did a lot of crazy things like loading materials on top of the elevators to get it upstairs and I remember working in the shaft while the elevators were in use. I still have my elevator key for opening the doors from the outside when the cab isn't there. Do you remember the name of the person who got hurt?

When we demoed the 6th floor and moved materials up to the 6th floor we used a winch or by hand and there were a few times the material 'got away' about 3-4 floors in the air. I scraped a lot of asbestos off of walls and ceiling there. The only time I wasn't in Denver was about 3 months in 73 I was in Houston and in 75 I was in Orlando (Kissimmee) for about 3 months.

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Date: Sat, Mar 31, 2001 at 21:08:07 (GMT)
From: Selene
Email: None
To: thread
Subject: we lost our jobs - read - livelihood
Message:
For six months probabion due to being lead on stage production for the Tucson 'festival' god how it makes me sneer to call it a festival.
Having willingly accepted responsibility for what happened at the convention center stage tech wise was admittedly stupid beyond belief but it was part of the job.
Some idiots destroyed an opera curtain - those things are expensive. Lights were broken, the whole place was a mess no production before that I know of resulted in that much UNPAID or UNCOVERED liability.
Of coursse my ex hubbie was so fanatical about M his mouthing off to the administrators didn't help I admit that. But still, M should have covered the costs and we should not have lost the income. lots of money.
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Date: Sat, Mar 31, 2001 at 05:03:04 (GMT)
From: Abi
Email: None
To: janet
Subject: premie electrocuted while doing service
Message:
Janet,

that is a really awful story about the premie who was electrocuted when he was doing service. Terrible. Did he stay with the cult? Did the cult help him get better at all?

Abi

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Date: Sat, Mar 31, 2001 at 05:51:06 (GMT)
From: janet
Email: None
To: Abi
Subject: premie electrocuted while doing service
Message:
since it happened in denver, i presume they took him to denver general, which is a public hospital that must treat anyone brought in.
when he told his story in 401 later, he said just an instant before felt the current come ripping down his arm, he felt Holy Name close around him and seal him off from the pain to come. said the entire time they later told him he was in a coma, he was away in the Light, playing like a baby on the lap of maharaji...
his flesh crawled like melted plastic. he showed us the scars. his arm looked like someone had spread his flesh around like frosting on a cake. all the while he told the story, his eyes were blasting full of light like diamonds, seeing somewhere faraway.

i do believe he said premies came to visit him in the hospital. maharaji might have even gone once. that part i am not solid on tho.

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Date: Sat, Mar 31, 2001 at 17:14:56 (GMT)
From: sean
Email: None
To: janet
Subject: premie electrocuted while doing service
Message:
Sounds like the same premie that I heard in Denver. As I recall He said it happened in Philly at a big hotel there.
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Date: Sat, Mar 31, 2001 at 03:22:27 (GMT)
From: donner
Email: None
To: Abi
Subject: Service and compensation: Some questions
Message:
good questions and some good points...worth exploring..i'll bet michael dettmers has considered this issue about exploitation before...protection against
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Date: Sat, Mar 31, 2001 at 03:31:31 (GMT)
From: Abi
Email: None
To: donner
Subject: Michael Dettmers can you help?
Message:
with these questions. I'd really appreciate it.

with respect,

Abi

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Date: Sat, Mar 31, 2001 at 05:52:15 (GMT)
From: Michael Dettmers
Email: dettmers@gylanix.com
To: Abi
Subject: Michael Dettmers can you help?
Message:
Abi,

Thanks for your heartfelt, sincere, and important questions. I don’t pretend to have all of the answers but I will do my best to share what I know or think. Please bear in mind, however, that I have been out of the cult for well over a decade. I’ve never been to Amaroo for example, and don’t know anything about the ten-page confidentiality agreement other that what I have read on the Forum.

Certainly, Élan Vital is legally required to provide workers compensation for all of its employees. It is my understanding that such coverage doesn’t extend to volunteers. If, however, people doing service are signing confidentiality agreements, it might be implied in a court of law that their activities are being sufficiently directed and controlled by the organizing entity that a de facto employment condition exists, in which case they may be entitled to workers compensation. I am, of course, speaking about how such matters are viewed under US law. I don’t know if similar provisions exist in Australia and elsewhere.

Whether Maharaji and/or Élan Vital can be held legally responsible for injuries incurred while doing service can only be determined after examining the circumstances and facts on a case-by-case basis. I’m sure that Maharaji’s and Élan Vital’s lawyers are doing everything they can to anticipate and prevent such lawsuits from occurring.

Also, members of the cult might find it difficult or unthinkable to bring an action against Elan Vital and/or Maharaji if they are still believers. Their own feelings of betrayal and the peer pressure from other cult members represent powerful forces against taking such an action. If they are fortunate enough to get out of the cult, it may be too late to bring an action in some, but certainly not all, situations.

When Susan and I wrote to Maharaji last July to inform him about Jagdeo, he assigned Marcia Leitner, a member of Élan Vital’s Board of Directors, to respond to our letters. Marcia is a lawyer who specializes in human resource issues. During our conversation, she told me that she conducted courses about sexual harassment in the workplace with all employees of Élan Vital including all instructors. I don’t know if those courses were limited to Élan Vital in the USA, or if they were conducted worldwide.

To me, you get to the heart of the matter when you say, “It seems to me that if Elan Vital honestly cared about the people who work for them for free then it would go out of its way to compensate those who have been harmed while doing service.“ That is exactly what should happen. Unfortunately, 'doing the right thing' has not been one of Maharaji's or Elan Vital's strong points.

Michael

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Date: Sat, Mar 31, 2001 at 06:35:41 (GMT)
From: Abi
Email: None
To: Michael Dettmers
Subject: PS
Message:
Dear Michael,
I forgot to thank you for helping us with the Jagdeo issue. You have great integrity. I respect that.

Best wishes

Abi

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Date: Sat, Mar 31, 2001 at 06:15:39 (GMT)
From: Abi
Email: None
To: Michael Dettmers
Subject: thanks
Message:
Dear Michael,
thanks for clarifying all of that. Your point about the confidentiality papers signalling a defacto workers contract is interesting. I'm sure they've covered themselves a great deal. Still, it would be interesting to read the papers. I noticed that the Amaroo registration papers made a legal point of not taking responsiblity for any injuries or 'loss of enjoyment' (?!) experienced when attending the site.

Also a good point about premies not understanding that they have any rights at all if they are injured. I seem to recall some premies dismissing injuries as karmic lessons from M. And certianly janets description of the premie who got electrocuted fits in with that.

I guess EV is a very slick 21stC multi-national empire now and there are very few chinks in the corporate armour. Telling truth to power is a complex thing.

Thanks

Abi

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Date: Sat, Mar 31, 2001 at 03:10:49 (GMT)
From: Babs
Email: ralphie@ralphiescafe.com
To: Abi
Subject: Is M Judgmentproof?
Message:
I have a vague recollection of signing some papers back in '73 @ IHQ, prepared by some premie attorneys also working @ IHQ, waiving my rights and holding Maharaj Ji blameless in case of basically anything. Does anybody else remember signing anything like that? (M's donner, Dettmers, Richard, Joy?)

I remember thinking how stupid and unnecessary it was at the time, as if any of us would ever want anything at all from him other than more opportunities for blissful service. In retrospect, however, I'm sorely afraid that his gigantic ass is well covered - at least from lawsuits by former ashram premies - thanks to the foresight of those of us who managed to get law degrees BEFORE signing our lives away...

Any comments, Marianne? Are you thinking along these lines?

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Date: Sun, Apr 01, 2001 at 04:35:04 (GMT)
From: Joy
Email: None
To: Babs
Subject: Is M Judgmentproof?
Message:
Hi Babs. I certainliy don't remember signing anything like that. But then again, it was so long ago (28 years) that I probably just can't remember.

Just after I got out of the cult and went to visit my friend who had been injured at DECA by the chemicals she was working with unprotected in the cockpit of that obscene 707, I encouraged her strongly to try and file a workers' comensation lawsuit against DECA, but she wasn't interested in doing this. (I was working for a workers' comp. insurance defence law firm at the time, so saw people getting awards for much lesser injuries all the time.) I'm not sure what her motivations were for not wanting to do it, but they probably were private to her. Sometimes when you're in an injured position, you're not in the mood for a legal fight, you want to employ all your available energy towards healing, and I can only assume that's where she was at with it all. I, personally, would've sued the [Krishna] pants off him straightaway if it had been me, but then maybe I would've been too dazed and confused by it all as well. I agree with Katie and Frannie that lawsuits are emotionally harrowing and not the easiest things to go through, particularly when you're down and out.

I believe the idea of a class action lawsuit has been discussed here many times. I used to ask Joe about it a lot, and he used to rattle off reasons why it'd be a waste of time. I just love the idea of it, I'm a very litigious person, if only for the publicity value alone. Too bad we can't conjure up something, think of the newspaper articles it would generate. I would love to sue Prem Pal Singh Rawat (aka Guru Maharaj Ji aka Lord of the Universe) for brainwashing me into giving up nine years of wages, plus associated pension and social security income plus my gold bracelets (family heirlooms), plus exposing me to toxic chemicals in the course of said service (photographic chemicals in the typesetting room) for a number of years, when my immune system was no doubt compromised due to lack of sleep, improper nutrition and the stress of communal living/sleeping arrangements, sleep deprivation due to early morning arti wakeup calls etc. Ooh, it'd be so fun to put all that down in a lawsuit!

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Date: Sun, Apr 01, 2001 at 04:43:45 (GMT)
From: Francesca
Email: None
To: Joy
Subject: You've given a good example of the flip side ...
Message:
of lawsuits. If you are not majorly emotionally involved in whether you win or lose, and seeing the negative publicity would be worth it all, indeed somewhat the point of it all, under some circumstances, a lawsuit could be fun, I suppose.

The only thing I'd worry about for anyone is that Pandora's box would open up once you got in the ring. I remember when some art students were doing a pugilistic performance piece and ended up in a real boxing match when they started to hurt each other. In other words, it got ugly, and emotions came out that they didn't know were there.

And then again, maybe he'll meet his very own Paula Jones!

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Date: Sun, Apr 01, 2001 at 09:51:58 (GMT)
From: Marianne
Email: None
To: Francesca, Joy, et al.
Subject: Lawsuit talk
Message:
Anyone seriously contemplating suing Captain Rawat and company ought to do it offline. This thread of course is only addressing the theoretical possibility or viability of such a suit. Sorry to get all technical here, but I am sure you understand my motivation. I am in complete agreement with the sentiments you all have expressed.

Marianne

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Date: Sun, Apr 01, 2001 at 16:40:31 (GMT)
From: Joy
Email: None
To: Marianne
Subject: Lawsuit talk
Message:
No, I don't think I realistically would do it, at this point. I'm just fantasizing. But I sure would like to see somebody take it on, and would certainly be there to back them up 100% with emotional support.

As Francesca says, there is that really intense emotional side of a lawsuit, which puts you through the ringer and makes it almost not worthwhile. When I became chemically sensitive thanks to dailiy exposure to laser printer and photocopier toner in my law firm in a 'sick building' there were quite a few people who wanted me to file a workers' comp suit against my employer, since I worked for the #1 law firm in the area and they represented Boeing against their chemically injured workers, hence were considered the 'bad guy'. My doctor was just itching to take these people on in a legal fight, with me as the guinea pig in the middle. I didn't want any part of it, I felt like a little ant which would've gotten stomped on and ground to dust immediately by the giant big-bucks law firm, and was too emotionally and physically fragile to put myself through that kind of thing for the sake of proving a point, no matter how important of a point. So yes, I do understand this aspect of it well.

But maybe a bunch of people could do a class action suit against him or something, for the publicity value? That way it wouldn't be just one person who'd have to be the focus. Still fantasizing, it's just always something I'd like to see done to Rawat. How else can one redress injustice in a civilized society?

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Date: Sat, Mar 31, 2001 at 07:18:19 (GMT)
From: Marianne
Email: None
To: Babs
Subject: Is M Judgment proof?
Message:
I don't think that M is judgment proof.

And yes, I think about these issues quite a bit. Whether someone has the right to sue, or ought to sue, is something that has to be decided on an individual basis, just as Michael Dettmers said.
I don't think lawsuits are the cure all for what ails people. Just because someone has a cause of action doesn't necessarily mean they should sue.

Marianne

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Date: Sun, Apr 01, 2001 at 01:53:35 (GMT)
From: Francesca
Email: None
To: Marianne
Subject: Agree -- lawsuits are not a cure-all
Message:
Totally agree that having a cause of action is only part of the equation. During my brief tenure in insurance defense and then in torts from the plaintiff side, I saw firsthand what a toll it took on our clients. Wrongful deaths were especially painful, as can be expected.

Lawsuits are not always about healing. It really is a case-by-case basis for sure. I'll never forget what one of our partners said in the insurance defense firm -- something to the effect that people come to the law looking for justice. And all they get is the law. It's hard to explain that to the clients.

love, f

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Date: Sun, Apr 01, 2001 at 02:13:21 (GMT)
From: Katie H
Email: None
To: Francesca
Subject: Thanks, Francesca and Marianne
Message:
I really dislike lawsuits after having been involved in one because of my father's death. This was a malpractice lawsuit which we WON, but it was horrible. I am just thankful that I only had to listen to the summation, not the testimony, because I was a potential witness. Also, it took five years to bring the case to trial - which meant lack of closure for those years.

I am not trying to discourage anyone from bringing a case if they really feel they want to - just asking that people educate themselves as to what that would involve. Also, I think there are a few people who have posted here who I think have grounds that would lead to either a successful lawsuit or an quick out-of-court settlement (although I'm not sure they could accept the terms of a settlement).

Francesca, hope you are all right, by the way - what you are going through is so difficult.

Love,
Katie

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Date: Sun, Apr 01, 2001 at 04:46:13 (GMT)
From: Francesca
Email: None
To: Katie H
Subject: Thanks for the kind thoughts
Message:
Emotions are a bit of a rollercoaster, as you can imagine. I'm trying not to use the situation of a terminal illness in the family as an excuse to be negative or overdo it. Early grieving is fine, but chanelling it into some bullsh*t or other is not.

Boy do I get angry easy though.

LOVE, f

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Date: Sun, Apr 01, 2001 at 16:23:27 (GMT)
From: Katie H.
Email: None
To: Francesca
Subject: Thanks for the kind thoughts
Message:
I remember getting real impatient with what I saw as b.s. when I was going through the same thing. It was sort of like I got down to a place where I could see what was REALLY important. I can't live like that all the time though - too intense.

You are probably familiar with Stephen Levine's work, but just in case you are not, his book 'Who Dies?' was very helpful to me and my sister when we were in that situation.

Love to you -
Katie

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Date: Sun, Apr 01, 2001 at 16:53:29 (GMT)
From: Francesca
Email: None
To: Katie H.
Subject: You're the second one who has recommended ...
Message:
that book. That will be my next one -- since I'm now reading Facing Death and Finding Hope by Christine Longaker. Before that, Kubler-Ross' book On Death and Dying (I think) has been invaluable. It is making the rounds in my family.
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Date: Sat, Mar 31, 2001 at 05:52:24 (GMT)
From: Francesca
Email: None
To: Babs
Subject: Not totally, I'm sure
Message:
Years ago, when I was first becoming a paralegal I worked with an attorney that did some tort work. (God I hated it -- too much discovery.) He told me that agreements where you sign away your right to make claims re accidents and injuries are not bulletproof. His exact comment was, 'there's ways to get around those.' Situations can arise in which, under tort (personal injury) law, it could be considered unconscionable to hold someone to such an agreement.

Usually it would have to do with the degree negligence on one side, and the extent of the injuries on the other. And would be extremely fact-driven, i.e. general principles would apply but it would largely rely on the exact set of circumstances. One of which would be the exact terms of the agreement.

Hope that helps, and if there's a tort lawyer in the house, jump in.

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Date: Sat, Mar 31, 2001 at 02:41:54 (GMT)
From: Dermot
Email: None
To: Abi
Subject: 'Rawats private property is theft' Abi:))
Message:
Your post deserves a good think....we have all been slaves of Prem pal singh Rawat. Some have suffered .....and I've mentioned it before that their have been many premie suicides( he's not responsible for ALL those suicides but SOME....no doubt about it .....his mind control/domination methods played a large part in some lost, trusting , fucked up people to exit this life......and they are not even a statistic......DLM/EV paid them no heed.....they were just bongos.

Best Wishes

Dermot

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Date: Sat, Mar 31, 2001 at 02:38:14 (GMT)
From: Cynthia
Email: None
To: Abi
Subject: Service and compensation: Some questions
Message:
Hi Abi,

That was one good post and beautifully written, too.

I can't fathom calculating the damage done to premies. But, I bet lawyers can:)))))

That's all I can say....
Love,
Cynthia

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Date: Fri, Mar 30, 2001 at 19:48:41 (GMT)
From: Pat Conlon
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: EPO is a cult of anti-Indian white Jews
Message:
Anonymous divine troll: ''mr conlon insults millions of indian people who sincerely pray to their lord krishna, but he calls them a bunch of infan-tile masturbators!''

This latest crap from a clone of Divine Troll Inc confirms my hunch that our next skirmish really must be directed at the Indian premies who are being duped by Rev Moonbeam Rawat into thinking that he is Krishna.

Webmaster I hope you will consider, if technically possible, inserting a few Hindi-script metatags and keywords for search-engines as well as a small Hindi-script introductory paragraph on page one of EPO.

If the Indian premies need a guru they would be better off looking for one closer to home whose life can be scrutinized more closely that Rev Rawat's.

However gurujism is a pernicious lie and I would prefer that they release themselves of this superstition and walk independently in this world.

This may not happen for many generations but I would at least be satisfied if the Indian premies found out that Rev Rawat eats meat and drinks alcohol and commits adultery. This would cause them a lot of distress and perhaps they could find a more honest and modest guru - if they still need one.

Anonymous continues: ''tbose 'sucksessfull businessmen' amongst the ex-premies like dettmers and conlon, and they are even proud of it..you know what they are to me? a bunch of props to this capitalist system of the jewish-christian whities who would like to control the world.''

This is too cute. It sounds like the American Indians' crying ''racism'' when criticized for their improper handling of casinos for the enrichment only of their families and not the whole tribe. Or the recent Wen Ho Lee scandal.

I guess your revelations, Mr Dettmers, are a real threat to Rev Rawat's reputation among the Indians. I know they don't like me to talk about the bhakti juju. Their attempt to intimidate me by email started right after I posted my first essay about it.

As for the digs at western civilization. Well, I guess it must be a cult, a white Jewish conspiracy. Pity I only have one-eighth Jewish blood or I could also cry ''racism.''

Time to educate the Indian premies. Anybody have access to a Hindi-script word-processor?

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Date: Sat, Mar 31, 2001 at 06:19:17 (GMT)
From: janet
Email: None
To: Pat Conlon
Subject: this is hate speech. report it to his ISP
Message:
also to the cops. its prosecutable in this state.
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Date: Sat, Mar 31, 2001 at 08:51:34 (GMT)
From: Pat Conlon
Email: None
To: janet
Subject: Troll gone Janet - thanks for blowing the whistle
Message:
FA banned the bugger. I just emailed the FA to say thanks again for taking me seriously. I'd rather trolls get the impression that they are being watched carefully and lurkers learn that if they want to post they better introduce themselves and not sneak in the back door. In fact I would like to see a guideline written that encourages first-timers to introduce themselves properly.

Like: ''Hi, I'm a divine troll and I am here to disrupt the proceedings'' or ''Hi, I'm Matilda Moneybags and I've read the whole of EPO and am now an ex-premie. I'm the lawyer who put Rev Bakker in jail (poor sod) and I wish to do some pro bono work on the Rev Rawat case.''

That's a joke Salam.

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Date: Sat, Mar 31, 2001 at 02:30:55 (GMT)
From: Sir Dave
Email: None
To: Pat Conlon
Subject: EPO is a cult of anti-Indian white Jews
Message:
Both true racism and the incorrect accusation of racism are often the last resorts of a lost argument and a lost cause.

No white ex-premies are racist if we bowed down to an Indian man.

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Date: Sat, Mar 31, 2001 at 05:39:16 (GMT)
From: Pat Conlon
Email: None
To: Sir Dave
Subject: Thanks Sir Dave for taking the time read my post
Message:
I guess this is one thread that won't take off.

And, yes, I often view with suspicion all cries of racism and yes, if we had been racist, we would not have found Rev Rawat so enticingly attractive.

Maybe I'm a characterist. I have prejudices against people with bad characters.

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Date: Sat, Mar 31, 2001 at 02:23:54 (GMT)
From: Jerry
Email: None
To: Pat Conlon
Subject: Have you lost your way?
Message:
Let me ask you something, Pat. Do you honestly believe there's such a thing as an honest, enlightened soul who's only concern is the development of his disciples? I don't. I think they're all egomaniacs who need the adulation of their disciples to give them their cheap rush.

As far as 'enlightening' the Indian premies to Maharaji's shennanigans so they can look for somebody they can more closely scrutinize, you've got to be kidding. Scrutiny of one's master is the last thing a devotee wants to do. It's all about blind faith. The master can do no wrong. Whatever he does is perfect. It's just our demon minds incapable of grasping this noble truth that's the problem.

So how dare you talk of scrutinizing the master, you, you monmot, you. No such word exists in a devotee's dictionary.

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Date: Sat, Mar 31, 2001 at 05:35:11 (GMT)
From: Pat Conlon
Email: None
To: Jerry
Subject: Have you lost your way? No, just being kind
Message:
You said: ''Let me ask you something, Pat. Do you honestly believe there's such a thing as an honest, enlightened soul who's only concern is the development of his disciples?''

My answer is I don't know of any but I do know good people so maybe there is one good guru in India who is modest and responsible. Guruism is such an integral part of Hinduism that it probably won't disappear over-night.

Gurus to them are pretty much like our preachers are to us and maybe there have been some sincere preachers. I am allergic to all priests and others who would set themsleves up as messengers of god but I don't knock those who are less independent minded than me.

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Date: Sat, Mar 31, 2001 at 05:54:31 (GMT)
From: sean
Email: None
To: Pat Conlon
Subject: Have you lost your way? No, just being kind
Message:
From what I've read, Gandhi came close. He had some drawbacks (didn't do too well with his kids), but he never avoided facing his faults either. Course a lot of folks will make a guru where there wasn't one.
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Date: Sat, Mar 31, 2001 at 06:13:20 (GMT)
From: Pat Conlon
Email: None
To: sean
Subject: Ghandi's eldest son ended up hating him
Message:
He was born while G was in South Africa and chose to remain behind when G returned to India. The son was only 19 at the time. Later he was ''reconciled'' but remained in SA to run Phoenix farm near where I was born and raised. He never did see his dad ever again.

The Gujerati premies in SA always have a pic of Rawat and Ghandi (also a Gurjerati) on there altars to which they do puja.

Some historians have argued that G caused more bloodshed by his fasts and other ''saintly'' actions than many warlords. Anti-Muslim riots etc.

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Date: Sat, Mar 31, 2001 at 16:18:58 (GMT)
From: sean
Email: None
To: Pat Conlon
Subject: Ghandi's eldest son ended up hating him
Message:
I don't think you could blame Gandhi for the bloodshed, after all it has continued to this day. I do think he was vital in getting out from colonial rule. One of the problems I see through history for those with big visions is that those closest to them get sacrificed. I truly believe that if you must sacrifice your spouse or children or friends, you have missed the boat somehow. It MUST include everyone. And if it can't then stop and rethink the path. Not one being is worth the sacrifice. If they want to sacrifice themselves then that is their choice, but if the choice is made for them, legitimacy is lost. ANY form of slavery is wrong, wrong, wrong. And I will fight it to my dying breath.
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Date: Sat, Mar 31, 2001 at 16:06:02 (GMT)
From: cq
Email: None
To: Pat Conlon
Subject: Little known fact about Gandhi -
Message:
sorry to repeat myself, and on this serious thread too, but the urge is just too strong ...


Mahatma Gandhi, as you know, walked barefoot most of the time, which produced an impressive set of calluses on his feet. He also ate very little, which made him rather frail and with his odd diet, he suffered from bad breath.

You know what this made him?

Ready????

.
.
.

It's simple - (altogether now)

a super callused fragile mystic plagued with halitosis !
.

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Date: Sat, Mar 31, 2001 at 16:20:57 (GMT)
From: sean
Email: None
To: Oh my god!!!
Subject: Little known fact about Gandhi -
Message:
Now I have a pain between my ears.
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Date: Fri, Mar 30, 2001 at 19:18:30 (GMT)
From: Dermot
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: Someone tell me ...is'Raja ji' part of the con
Message:
or not????

He's sure done well out of it IMO .....and he still trucks round on part of his bro

So why is Richard , Donner etc treating him ' just like any on of us'.

Get real fellas the guys a leach on a leach .....and his WPC were close to fucking criminal ......so should I just lay off the fella ....tell me please?????? tell me.

Dermot

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Date: Sat, Mar 31, 2001 at 00:26:40 (GMT)
From: Richard
Email: None
To: Dermot
Subject: When he spoke in Seattle, RJ talked about.....
Message:
... his long time close friends, an Indian couple who did not have Knowledge or even know about M. After years of friendship, RJ opened up to them and told them who is brother was. This was supposed to be a story about how NOT to be ashamed of M&K and to encourage us to introduce others to M&K. But what was most revealing to me is how M's brother could have such a long time relationship with people who had no idea of his family background.

Part of the con by association and benefits derived, perhaps but as reticent as most of the PWK's to talk about M&K.

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Date: Sat, Mar 31, 2001 at 00:44:59 (GMT)
From: Dermot
Email: None
To: Richard
Subject: When he spoke in Seattle, RJ talked about.....
Message:
Yes Richard but we werenytso reluctant in the early days were we? I remember accosting people on the street in my ashram days ......and feeling so high that I thought I could walk on air....(of course I was high on my own bullshit and deep deep down probably knew that 'no ....I havent seen light brighter than a tousand suns'......Yeas later as googoopop discouraged us to talk then likwise we became reluctant to talk .

Now as for RJ.....hmmm he has friends for years and they dont know about his involvement? So is milking it and too ashamed of telling his close friends?? When I got K to my mothers shame I wrote a 12 page to a catholic priest, told all my relatives and friends and any staranger I coulsd accost.So why has RJ ALWAYS been so reticent. Seems a bit suspicious to me.

Cheers

Dermot

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Date: Sat, Mar 31, 2001 at 00:38:00 (GMT)
From: Pat Conlon
Email: None
To: Richard
Subject: On the nose again, Richard NT
Message:
k
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Date: Sat, Mar 31, 2001 at 00:58:36 (GMT)
From: Richard
Email: None
To: Pat Conlon
Subject: OK, a funny RJ 'darshan' story
Message:
When I lived in the ashram in Denver, maybe 1974-ish, someone got the idea to bake Raja Ji some banana nut bread, as I recall. His younger bro' was out of town at the time and RJ was hanging at the Dalia Street res. So by the time the bread gets baked, the group of well wishers had grown to maybe a half dozen. We all pile in one of those DUO blue Valiants and show up unnaounced, thinking we'll just drop the nut bread off. Next thing, we're ushered into the res and in walks RJ and his pal Donner. We did pranam much to RJ's embarrassment I think. Then someone said, 'Raja Ji we've brought you some banana nut bread'. I think he about fell off his chair laughing and then asked us if we had a car - to leave in I presume.
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Date: Sat, Mar 31, 2001 at 01:18:19 (GMT)
From: Dermot
Email: None
To: Richard
Subject: Slightly OT weird darshan confrontaion.
Message:
I think this happened at the Palace of Peacebut not completely certain though i was present!

A guy stands up and shouts and lambasts the LOTU haha ....he's a bit too angry and BIG for security to confront him directly.He just swears and insults our precious master then slowly leaves.

when I moved to the Leicester ashram .....then moved out back into the dope smoking premie scene ....I meet the guy ....turns out he used to be in the SAS (elite military regiment) and is heavily into black magic and also quite a good artist(paintings) as well as getting off on torturing and dissecting cats and such like. I heard he recently died. Was always very polite with me ....and always you to ask (in a very well bred voice) ....oh soyou're not still in the ashram then?

For some reason all the heavy dude psychopaths i came across were always very polite andperformed their violent deeds elsewhere hahaha

Dermot

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Date: Fri, Mar 30, 2001 at 23:40:07 (GMT)
From: Selene
Email: None
To: Dermot
Subject: it depends
Message:
If he is only stupid and ugly cut him a little slack but if he is stupid and ugly AND mean that is a different story. Based on his storm troopers of old that I had to deal with, I'd say he is the latter.
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Date: Sat, Mar 31, 2001 at 03:26:10 (GMT)
From: sean
Email: None
To: Selene
Subject: it depends
Message:
He had his little 'secret police' crowd in Denver. Used to sneak around spying on the premies. They used to sit outside my house all hours reporting on the ashramers who came to hang out and get a little relief.
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Date: Fri, Mar 30, 2001 at 23:42:54 (GMT)
From: Dermot
Email: None
To: Selene
Subject: Stormtroopers.....-:)) (nt)
Message:
zz
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Date: Fri, Mar 30, 2001 at 21:57:04 (GMT)
From: AJW
Email: None
To: Dermot
Subject: Raja ji and the con.
Message:
Hi Dermot,

Raja ji was indoctrinated into the family business since a child too. In the 70s, he was supposed to be Shiva, or Vishnu or somebody, like Marylin was supposed to be Durga-ji. Anyway, after it was declared that all that stuff suddenly never happened, and he found himself with a wife and a couple of children. He never got to be Lord of the Universe, like his little brother, and big brother, and had to settle for being a premie, albeit the brother of the Perfect Master and son of the previous Perfect Master.

I got to know him when he had an apartment in London. It was just around the corner from The Ritz, off Piccadilly. He never seemed comfortable with it all, often nervous. He always treated me, and as far as I could see, the premies around, as equals, rather than servants. He didn't have the air of superiority of his kid brother. It was always easy to talk to him. He never tried to be smart, or preach or anything. In spite of his strange upbringing, he seemed to maintain a bit of genuine humility, and I think this is maybe what made both the Michaels maintain some respect for him, simply as a fellow human being who treated them well when he didn't have to. It would have been very easy for him to use his position to abuse people, but he didn't seem to be into that.

My own feelings towards him are similar. I'd be happy to sit down and have a meal with the guy, even just to ask him how the children are getting on, and how he's finding life as brother of the Perfect Master nowadays.

And who knows Dermot, maybe he's having second thoughts about worshiping his kid brother, just like the rest of us did.

Anth the fifth columnist.

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Date: Fri, Mar 30, 2001 at 22:13:04 (GMT)
From: Dermot
Email: None
To: AJW
Subject: OK anth...
Message:
thanks for that ......and yes maybe he's gonna renounce his brother ......(what are the odds you reckon?)

And yes I know a LOT of premies have and do like the guy....but give me a break matey he can't possibly be called an ordinary premie no matter how nice or unassuming ......I'm sure I'd like a line of coke with him and smoke some nice weed or have a little drink or whatever ....a nice guy no doubt.......BUt I'd sure as hell pull him up on his family biz empire for the simple reason it took control of my whole adult life.

He was in on it from his fathers days then his brothers days.....you telling me he doesnt know what REALLY is going on ??

I didnt know because I was just a faceless devottee fed everything Prem pal and the Mission fed me .....But Raja Ji ???

Pull the other one Anth.... I reckon our cool guy Dharam ....humble friend of all premies KNEW EXACTLY WHAT WAS AND IS GOING ON ......

Dermot

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Date: Fri, Mar 30, 2001 at 22:24:57 (GMT)
From: AJW
Email: None
To: Dermot
Subject: Dermot, you may well be right.
Message:
I have to admit it, because I've seen how my view of his kid brother has changed over the time I've been out of the cult.

I definitely haven't finished putting the jigsaw together yet, but I can see picture clearly forming.

I'm also becoming aware that I still carry a desire to be nice to everyone in world all the time, which sometimes isn't the appropriate attitude.

However, my current position with Raja Ji, is I'm still prepared to give him the benefit of the doubt.

Anth, still stained with love and peace.

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Date: Fri, Mar 30, 2001 at 23:07:58 (GMT)
From: Dermot
Email: None
To: AJW
Subject: AJW....Benefit of the doubt
Message:
Well in a face to face situation .....sucker as I am ....maybe I'd give him the benefit of the doubt.

I will concede (after dissing the guy left right and centre) that I don't know him from Adam.

If you and MD like him as a friend then he must have something going for him.

Even so ....persoanl attacks and defences aside.....I'm yet to be convinced of his culpability. And Donners perspective is a little different from yours and MD's and seems to say that Raja ji milked the sacred golden cow whilst we were milked of our own lives.

I'd be happy to be proved wrong but somehow doubt I wil be

Cheers Anth

ps you moving from Holland? To where?

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Date: Fri, Mar 30, 2001 at 21:46:00 (GMT)
From: donner
Email: None
To: Dermot
Subject: Someone tell me ...is'Raja ji' part of the con
Message:
i don't think i treat him like one of us...whatever that means. to me he is currently deep into the cult and one major proponent of it...mostly cus he likes the rich and famous life style...always has.
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Date: Fri, Mar 30, 2001 at 22:03:10 (GMT)
From: AJW
Email: None
To: donner
Subject: mike
Message:
hi mike,

Did you get the impression it all sat a bit uneasy with him? I used to get the feeling he was always a bit nervous and uncomfortable with his lot in life?

Whaddya think?

anth, always look on the bright side of life, de doo, de doo dedoodedoo.

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Date: Fri, Mar 30, 2001 at 22:23:12 (GMT)
From: donner
Email: None
To: AJW
Subject: mike
Message:
rj was always nervous...but i was never sure why he was nervous...might have been the coke he used sometimes...he sure enjoyed the power that his leadership of wpc gave him...and he used it as leverage to get a good deal with m upon its dismantling into dlm regular security. he also shared one woman that i know of with m much to claudia's chagrin. that was long ago and i have no idea these days.

i agree with your comments re his deep programming into it all from youth in india...he could have made different choices many times along the way...but personally, i think he has always been into the good life and money and status from the beginning and treated his 'duties' as a job so to speak. i never experienced rj as believing in m as lord...but joined the show for the money.

but then, i never had the 'personal' experiences that michael dettmers did/has. i always felt that rj never particularly liked me. but then i never really liked him much either...the money thing then was troubling to me...i looked the other way with m for a long time but everyone else i had a hard time not being judgemental about.

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Date: Fri, Mar 30, 2001 at 20:03:36 (GMT)
From: jondon
Email: None
To: Dermot
Subject: There is an old saying...
Message:
keep your friends close

but your even enemies closer.

Don't know who said it but...

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Date: Fri, Mar 30, 2001 at 21:43:35 (GMT)
From: moldy warp
Email: None
To: jondon
Subject: There is another old saying...
Message:
Blood is thicker than water. I would not trust Raja Ji as far as I could throw him. (not that I would actually resort to throwing him anywhere you understand -honest)
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Date: Fri, Mar 30, 2001 at 22:01:48 (GMT)
From: moldy warp
Email: None
To: AJW
Subject: Anth-read your post. I stand somewhat corrected nt
Message:
X
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Date: Fri, Mar 30, 2001 at 22:29:39 (GMT)
From: AJW
Email: None
To: moldy warp
Subject: hi moldy
Message:
I'm still getting it all in focus myself.

think I'll go and watch the end of Ben Hur.

anth the blearyeyed.

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Date: Fri, Mar 30, 2001 at 20:19:08 (GMT)
From: Pat Conlon
Email: None
To: jondon
Subject: keep friends close but enemies even closer
Message:
Nice observation, Jondon.
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Date: Fri, Mar 30, 2001 at 19:50:56 (GMT)
From: Pat Conlon
Email: None
To: Dermot
Subject: Poor old Number Two Ji
Message:
He's a leach all right, Dermot. Probably not the brains behind the scam but definitely sitting very pretty on the proceeds of it.
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Date: Fri, Mar 30, 2001 at 22:09:12 (GMT)
From: AJW
Email: None
To: Pat Conlon
Subject: Yeah but Pat,
Message:
I don't think he's a happy bunny.

First, he has to worship his kid brother. Think what that does for the self confidence.

He's had serious heavy pressures in his private, family life.

He hasn't got any qualifications, work experience, training or anything. The only kind of job he could get would be something like washing cars, washing dishes in an Indian restaurant or something.

As well as the mental indoctrination he's had, he's also tied to the cult because it's his livelihood. On the other hand, he's got to be only too aware of his brothers fucked up behaviour, so he's caught between a rock and a hard stone in one way.

And like I said above, he never came across as an unpleasant person at all.

Anth the devotee of Brahma.

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Date: Sat, Mar 31, 2001 at 06:33:27 (GMT)
From: Lester
Email: None
To: AJW
Subject: AJW, I'm confused
Message:
Anth, I'm confused. For the past few months I have been reading your vitriol against Maharaji and now find you being Raja Ji's apologist. I've not too many personal feelings either way about him. I saw him about 2 years ago and thought he was quite laid back and about 12 years ago my wife suggested to him that being M's brother and all the access and privilege that brought must make premie life quite nice. His fairly battered look in response told a story.

However, not that long ago, M talked about wanting to make the whole show a family affair - something to the effect of Premlata doing the PR stuff, Datya the music, Marolyn whatever (I can't remember the details) and how that would make his 'work' so much easier and focussed. And it is starting to happen - someone reported the recent video with each section being introduced by a different child, Premlata was the main speaker at a big intro event in California a couple of weeeks ago, Daya is the events diva and Raja Ji has definitely been a big part of that plan for the past 30+ years.

Raja Ji is an integral part of the machine which is perpetuating the myth of the Supreme Being scam - he knows the truth about Maharaj Ji and what has been going on and yet persists in taking the luxuriant lifestyle pickings of obedience. History is littered with stories of such people. Maybe deep down a nice guy, but I cannot feel sorry for him, give him sympathy or the benefit of the doubt - there is no doubt, because he is a charlatan too.

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Date: Mon, Apr 02, 2001 at 08:57:13 (GMT)
From: AJW
Email: None
To: Lester
Subject: AJW, I'm confused
Message:
Hi Lester,

I don't have all the answers by any stretch of the imagination, and I've seen how my view of Captain Rawat has changed since I left the cult.

Initially my response to Rawat in my personal relationship with him, was to take him as I found him. I also had the same attitude to his brother.

I'd like the chance to sit down with Raja and have a chat myself. I wonder if he believes it all, like the premies, or if he too has come to the conclusion it's a con, but he won't get a better job anywhere else, so he sticks with it.

Maybe you're right Lester. Maybe he is a charlatan too. But who knows, maybe he struggles with it all, believing his brother did take on his dads job as Lord of the Universe in person.

I really don't know, but I'd like the chance to talk to him and find out.

Anth taking it as it comes.

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Date: Sat, Mar 31, 2001 at 21:44:16 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Lester
Subject: Lester, you're confused about being confused
Message:
With you all the way, Lester.
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Date: Sat, Mar 31, 2001 at 00:48:44 (GMT)
From: Pat Conlon
Email: None
To: AJW
Subject: Yeah Anth, I actaually like No 2 Ji when I met him
Message:
The day before I got K I met him and got a ''darshan'' high off him because he smiled so beautifully and did indeed seem modest and shy (but I twice had that with rawat too when I met him ''off stage'' and once in darshan when I was the last person to go through.)

Until recently I always preferred him to the Rev Moonbutt but he seems to be such a weak and lazy and veanl man. However I would cut him slack if he turned Judas.

Thelma says' No 2 Ji is a Virgo Goat, conflicted, easily led and neurotic.

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Date: Fri, Mar 30, 2001 at 19:54:09 (GMT)
From: Francesca
Email: None
To: Pat Conlon
Subject: I agree, Dermot and Pat n/t
Message:
n/t
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Date: Fri, Mar 30, 2001 at 16:51:38 (GMT)
From: Michael Dettmers
Email: dettmers@gylanix.com
To: Everyone
Subject: Raja Ji, Patrick W., care? etc.
Message:
Last night I returned from the UK where I spent a day with Patrick Wilson in Brighton to discuss a project I am working on that could require his skills a composer and musician, and three days in London on other business. I didn’t have time to check in on the Forum during my trip, so I have just now done my best to catch up.

Let me start by saying how surprised I am at some of the negative responses to the post Patrick made last Monday about his report of a phone call he received from a friend who is in close contact with current PAMs. I was there when the call came in. At one point, Patrick handed me the phone because he thought I should hear first hand what this person was saying. What this person told me corresponds exactly to what Patrick reported.

Having said that, I agree with Michael Donner’s, and other’s reaction to what was reported under the heading “care?” Based on the comments by Patrick’s friend, Maharaji and/or his advisors may now feel it is timely to own up to the reports I and other’s have made about his behind the scenes lifestyle with a view of putting it all behind him so that he can get on with his work. I can imagine a scenario in which he admits to his drinking and sexual addictions by blaming it on the corrupting influence of manipulative PAMs and licentious women who were bent on exploiting his innocence for their personal gain in much the same way his mother Mata Ji tried to blame Sampurnanand and Marolyn for his corrupt western ways when the family split up. Maharaji has always been good at deflecting responsibility for his failures onto others as he did recently at his organizer training sessions by blaming the Indian mahatmas for all the concepts about him and knowledge. I have no reason to think that he would adopt a different tact with respect to his personal hypocritical behavior.

In my opinion, the real issue is not about Maharaji’ lifestyle. It is about him taking responsibility and accountability for the abuse his lies and deception have inflicted upon others, and about making amends for that abuse. It is about honestly looking himself in the mirror and realizing that his assumed identity as the Master is a lie, and bringing to an end the scam he has perpetuated on the basis of that lie. That is a degree of honesty and integrity that I believe is beyond him. Too bad, because if the reports of his current wealth are accurate, he could retire from the scene in reasonable comfort while simultaneously taking steps to financially compensate some of the victims most aggrieved by his and/or his agents abuses.

Of course, during my brief visit with Patrick we did discuss the Forum, his conversations with current premies and their reactions to the EPO. He wondered if I would like to speak with Glen Whittaker. I told him that I had no problem speaking or getting together with Glen. When Patrick presented this idea to Glen, however, he politely declined. I didn’t take it personally. I understand the fear that exists around M and I’m sure that Glen would not like it reported that he met with me without first having received permission.

Patrick also informed me Raja Ji was somewhere in the UK, possibly in London. I was unaware of that fact so we made a couple of phone calls and reached a person who promised to give Raja Ji Patrick’s number with a request to call me. Early the next morning he called. We had a brief conversation and arranged to meet for lunch last Wednesday in London. I was not surprised that Raja Ji called me since, as I have previously reported, we have stayed in touch once or twice a year by phone and had previously met for lunch about five years ago when we both happened to be in Berkeley. However, I had had only one conversation with him since I began posting on the Forum and, at that time, the subject was not raised. I felt certain the topic would be raised over lunch, which it was.

As I have said before, I developed a friendship with Raja Ji during my years of service with M, a friendship that he has continued to honor after I left. Consequently, I have chosen to honor that friendship by not publicly criticizing him on the Forum, although I am sensitive to some of the legitimate criticisms that have been directed his way. When we met for lunch, he requested that our conversation remain between the two of us and I acceded to that request. I did tell him, however, that I would report that we met. A good part of our meeting was spent on catching up on each other’s lives but finally we got down to my posts on the Forum. In my conversation, I wanted him to understand the process I went through in coming to grips with my past involvement with M and my own culpability in helping Maharaji perpetuate the abuses I have documented. I also made crystal clear what I believe are the real issues M must face, as I have delineated above. By the way Jim, I did pass on your hello.

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Date: Sat, Mar 31, 2001 at 20:45:55 (GMT)
From: Roger eDrek
Email: drek@oz.net
To: Michael Dettmers
Subject: This is gonna be a lame post, but...
Message:
I only left the cult a few years ago and saw Raja on his community tours a number of times.

While I don't know Raja at all and we all know that personas are often different than their real life persona, I really got the, ok here it is, 'vibe' that Raja was an ok, approachable person.

In fact, just a few years ago I noticed him out in the parking lot before his little program and he noticed me and nodded and smiled a hello. Don't get me wrong and believe that I thought for one instant I was having a blissful darshan experience like the old days. No, it was just one person to another and there wasn't even the feel of 'oh, aren't WE special because WE'VE got Knowledge.'

And you've got Jim Heller's story of their meeting in L.A. years ago where Raja expressed his own questions and doubts in an honest fashion (from the report that Jim gave us.)

Sure, Raja is probably getting a stipend from his brother and he'd be a better person if he renounced it all and walked away, but let's be real about it. It's probably not going to happen. Hell, what might happen is that Maharaji might cut him off.

Anyway, I don't fault Michael Dettmers one bit for wishing to retain a friendship with Raja. Regardless of the cult thing I know that I met and got to know a lot of really good people during that time. And I believe that friendships can still exist regardless. You might just want to avoid that one touchy subject.

Finally, we've seen that at TED Farkel's Transmission Repair Auto-Knowledge Centre (TRAC) that Raja has adjust rather well during his stay there. If TED Farkel says that Raja is ok then that's good enough for me!

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Date: Sat, Mar 31, 2001 at 21:21:27 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Roger eDrek
Subject: Lame is right!
Message:
Anyway, I don't fault Michael Dettmers one bit for wishing to retain a friendship with Raja. Regardless of the cult thing I know that I met and got to know a lot of really good people during that time. And I believe that friendships can still exist regardless. You might just want to avoid that one touchy subject.

Would you feel differently if you knew that Raja Ji also has millions in cash and assets, wealth only acquired at your expense, relatively-recently-out-of-the-cult-good-buddy-of-mine-who-,-by-your-own-admission-,-might-be-considerably-better-situated-materially-yourself-(-not-that-you're-doing-all--that-bad-now-don't-get-me-wrong)? Wouldn't you like to know before deciding how much slack, if any at all, you want to cut him?

Looked at another way, tell me one thing Raja Ji ever did beside not play his own Holy Family Member Smart Card to the max in each and every possible way? Dettmers talks about them being friends. What? They used to fly in the same part of the plane or something?

Sorry, I'm missing something, I guess. All I know is that we turned the Ottawa ashram into our pathetic version of a four-star restaurant for him and his wife in the mid 70's. I didn't get to serve them myself but rather peaked from around the corner with the rest of us naughty 'kids' staying up past our bedtime. Afterwards, he took his cutie to the Chateau Laurier for the night. I went back to my room which I shared with Stuart McDougall.

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Date: Sat, Mar 31, 2001 at 21:48:20 (GMT)
From: Roger eDrek
Email: drek@oz.net
To: Jim
Subject: Well, sheesh to you, Jim
Message:
I went back to my room which I shared with Stuart McDougall.

Jim, at least you had someone in your room to love. ;)

Geez, this is like War Crimes stuff, isn't it?

Does Raja Ji really have millions from the deal or is he just a very high camp follower who gets an allowance from King Rat?

Sure, he played a part in the bad old days and he ate that lousy vegetarian fare at your crumby ashram in Ottawa. We were all sucked into it and maybe he was too.

Honestly, I'm not sure if I was in his shoes I'd be doing anything different. What are his choices? Let's say he's got no big pile of cash stashed and is getting some kind of an allowance from King Rat.

1. Do you think that allowance from King Rat is going to be very much?

2. Tell King Rat he's a phony and do what? Get a job? A job doing what?

Realistically, if (and I think that's a big if) Raja Ji has got a big pile of cash you gotta know that there is no way that it will be removed from him via lawsuits. So, if he has this money is he going to give it up and become a sadhu?

Sure, I'm might be all wrong about the guy because I really don't know. The question is how much of a co-conspirator could Raja Ji really be? I wouldn't think much of one. Do you really think that Maharaji is a consensus kind of guy?

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Date: Sat, Mar 31, 2001 at 22:01:35 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Roger eDrek
Subject: This IS like a war crimes tribunal
Message:
I wasn't saying that I know that Raja Ji is loaded. I'm just saying it's a very real possibility and that I'd like to know if he was or not before I knew what to think about him.

But what do you think of Lester's post above to Anth ('AJW, I'm confused')? After reminding us that even now M's using his family to further the business, he writes:

Raja Ji is an integral part of the machine which is perpetuating the myth of the Supreme Being scam - he knows the truth about Maharaj Ji and what has been going on and yet persists in taking the luxuriant lifestyle pickings of obedience. History is littered with stories of such people. Maybe deep down a nice guy, but I cannot feel sorry for him, give him sympathy or the benefit of the doubt - there is no doubt, because he is a charlatan too.

Agree? Disagree?

You know, at a certain point in time, the family business cabal broke apart. Raja Ji made a choice then to play this role out with his brother. We'll never know how m might have fared if he didn't have at least one brother supporting him then. In any event, Raja Ji played that part and played it to the hilt. So now I'm particularly upset that Michael's got himself into this situation where he can't even talk about him anymore. Think about it -- before lunch: Michael can talk freely, here or in private, about how he thinks the family dynamic's going, what role Raja Ji's playing, how possibly amenable he might be to this or that. After lunch: sorry. Can't talk about any of this.

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Date: Sat, Mar 31, 2001 at 22:36:46 (GMT)
From: Roger eDrek
Email: drek@oz.net
To: Jim
Subject: Damnit Jim, I don't care about. What about this..
Message:
What about you and this Stuart McDougall character sharing a bedroom? That's what real people with enquiring minds want to know about. And they want pictures, too. Ya got any? Hell, I don't need your pictures. I got my own and I can make them be anything I want them to be.

Ok, listen. This is an argument that I can't win because I really don't know the guy nor the story behind the guy.

However, my impression from being there in the cult in the 90's is that Raja Ji is a really small time two bit player. It seemed to me, again, I really don't know the inside stuff, that Maharaji is obligated to keep his big brother on the payroll and that he needs to give Raja something to do once in awhile to justify it to himself or whatever.

Raja shows up and he's not a very good speaker. He doesn't light up the audiences, the money doesn't start flowing. It really felt like the guy was just going through the motions and maybe enjoying some of the mingling with a few people, but it seemed that he'd rather be home doing whatever. That's my gut feel on the guy.

Sure, in the old days he might seemed to be a player and might be in charge of the nefarious WPC and by his not going back to Inida with mom he lent Prem Pal some legitimacy, but really? Raja was the worst public speaker. He had no pizazz. Keeping him off the stage as time went on was a good idea because I think the more we saw of the un-Holy family other than Maharaji the more inclined we were to see that they were not Holy in the least. Whereas on the other hand, Maharaji held our attention much better and could pull off the Lord of the Universe schtick (sp?). Again, it was pretty apparent that Raja and Mata, and Bhole and Sat Pal didn't have that stage presence at all and from a business standpoint it was better to keep them out of sight.

That Holy Family fervor that you mention was, IMO, short lived and as time went on (80's and 90's) was embarassingly forgotten by premies without any reservation whatsoever. The focus really did shift more and more to Maharaji exclusively. And in those years I really doubt that any premie believed that Raja Ji was some kind of fucking God. Ok, maybe Pauline Premie, but that's about it.

The money, the crimes...

Sure he was a charlatan. I would have been, too, for christ's sake. Like what do I do? Stay here in India and be somewhat rich or go to America and live it up in a luxourious money fast car playboy lifestyle and all I gotta do is continue to play my part in the family business?

Come on, Jimbo. Wake up and smell the coffee. I know that you are the suffering Public Defender there in Victoria in your seedy Chinatown apartment with a view of the alley in the back of the Chinese resturant. You're smoking an unfiltered Lucky Strike and pensively looking out that window when there's a knock on the door. You put down your glass of single malt scotch, walk over and open the door and there's a dropdead gorgeous blond with a pillow case stuffed full of U.S. cash and she says that she's in some kind of trouble. What are you gonna do? Tell her to turn herself in?

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Date: Sun, Apr 01, 2001 at 08:18:09 (GMT)
From: Lester
Email: None
To: Roger eDrek
Subject: Much more than a two bit player
Message:
Raja Ji is much more than a small time two bit player. I don't know the role he currently has, but in the not too distant past, a visit to the UK from him was very much seen as a precursor to a visit by Maharaji - i.e he was sent by M to check everything out. He was also responsible for overseeing the whole world tour schedule farce which seemed to occur each year. Maybe 'only folowing orders', but right at the hub.
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Date: Sun, Apr 01, 2001 at 09:06:50 (GMT)
From: Pat Conlon
Email: None
To: Lester
Subject: Lester, what do you mean Shri Raja Juju Ji
Message:
''....was also responsible for overseeing the whole world tour schedule farce which seemed to occur each year. Maybe 'only following orders', but right at the hub.''

Could you elaborate? Did No 2 Ji actually plan the schedule?

I of course have this vision of total chaos ''at the hub'' with Rev Monnbeam Rawat pacing up and down with a felt tip pen and occassionally punching a key on his laptop while No 2 Ji fiddles with his crotch and John Horton Ji and Glen Whittaker Ji stare inscrutably with that look on their faces that shows that they have their tongues in some snot.

But I'm open to hearing that some actual thought went into the planning process eventhough I doubt it very much.

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Date: Sat, Mar 31, 2001 at 16:17:17 (GMT)
From: Katie H
Email: None
To: Michael Dettmers
Subject: Thanks, Michael - and a few words about blaming
Message:
Hi Michael -
First, thanks for taking the time to do all this EPO/EV-related stuff while you were on a business trip. I have no problem with you not being able to divulge the conversation you had with Raja Ji - as you said, the other option would have been not to meet with him at all, which would not even had a potential postive effect. I respect your integrity in this matter, and it seems as if other pwk's do too - and are thus willing to communicate with you 'off the record'. Your trustworthiness is apparently keeping the lines of communication open, and helping people feel comfortable about talking to you without fear of being outed in some way.

You wrote, re Maharaji addressing some of the things he's done wrong in the past:
I can imagine a scenario in which he admits to his drinking and sexual addictions by blaming it on the corrupting influence of manipulative PAMs and licentious women who were bent on exploiting his innocence for their personal gain in much the same way his mother Mata Ji tried to blame Sampurnanand and Marolyn for his corrupt western ways when the family split up. Maharaji has always been good at deflecting responsibility for his failures onto others as he did recently at his organizer training sessions by blaming the Indian mahatmas for all the concepts about him and knowledge. I have no reason to think that he would
adopt a different tact with respect to his personal hypocritical behavior.

I agree with you here - especially as Maharaji seems to find it impossible to take on personal responsibility for anything negative. I just have to wonder how long the 'blame game' is going to work. It seems like Maharaji has been able to blame people who did things when he was in his teens and early twenties succesfully - I just wonder how many people are going to buy that he could still be so 'innocent' and easily manipulated in his late twenties and thirties. IMHO, many of the pwk's have to be smart enough to realize this. I doubt that they'd accept this 'corruption of innocence' defense from any other person their own age, and I tend to think they might see through Maharaji here.

You wrote:
In my opinion, the real issue is not about Maharaji’ lifestyle. It is about him taking responsibility and accountability for the abuse his lies and deception have inflicted upon others, and about making amends for that abuse. It is about honestly looking himself in the mirror and realizing that his assumed identity as the Master is a lie, and bringing to an end the scam he has perpetuated on the basis of that lie. That is a degree of honesty and integrity that I believe is beyond wealth are accurate, he could retire from the scene in reasonable comfort while simultaneously taking steps to financially compensate some of the victims most aggrieved by his and/or his agents abuses.

I agree that Maharaji has not shown that he is capable of this kind of self-examination. I also agree that he could compensate some of the victims AND retire comfortably (although I doubt that he will EVER feeel that he has 'enough' money) with a small number of hard-core followers around him, if he so desired. And I also think that this outcome would probably be unwelcome to many of the ex-premies - but I tend to be a fairly pragmatic person and this would seem to be the most realistic scenario - and I'd settle for it.

I'm far less concerned with punishing Maharaji than I am with the people who are currently following him - some of whom, I feel, are in great pain. I believe that there are people who will never stop viewing Maharaji as the 'perfect master' no matter what happens (even a 'Life of Brian' scenario!) - and that's just the way it is. But he could help a lot of people by making it clear that they have no obligation to be 'grateful to him'.

Take care, Michael -
Katie

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Date: Sat, Mar 31, 2001 at 10:23:59 (GMT)
From: bill
Email: None
To: Michael Dettmers
Subject: Raja Ji, Patrick W., care? etc.
Message:
Thank you Michael, Great post.

Hasn't it always been the case that raja defers to prem?
Well, maybe they argued like brothers when they were young but
when raja moved out of the Malibu house in (75)? to live with Claudia, was that a point when the lines between them were drawn
more clearer and prem from (that?) point on was master and didnt let raja forget it?
I dont suppose prem could stand to have an equal around.

prem would say at programs sometimes that premies around him would make one to many jokes or take things too far in thier
dareing to converse with him, and for a moment forget that he is the master and that fearful deference would slip away, and prem would reassert himself as greater than them and they better watch thier behaviour.

I suppose raja had wider boundries than all premies were allowed, but boundries non the less.

As far as raja is concerned, I would guess that damage was done
just by him meeting you at all. If we didnt know about you meeting raja, and then we found out, no one who is capable of reading your previous posts clearly would doubt you for a second.
However, those on the other side WOULD have reason to doubt raja.

prem might make a joke or two about having a drink after dealing with 'the world' but it is very unlkely that he will admit publically to any excess whatsoever and will presume that many of his victims do not read english and even hindi, and they will be out of the information loop anyway so why should he spill the beans himself?

In reading posts here, I start to hallucinate I guess, because to me the uproar about the report from Patrick was mostly
distrust of the information itself rather than doubts that Patrick was once again bullshitting us.....JUST KIDDING PATRICK!

Thanks for helping so many of us out in such a big way.

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Date: Fri, Mar 30, 2001 at 20:25:59 (GMT)
From: Susan
Email: None
To: Michael Dettmers
Subject: thanks Michael
Message:
Interesting.

I completely support how you handled this difficult situation.

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Date: Fri, Mar 30, 2001 at 20:03:24 (GMT)
From: Francesca
Email: None
To: Michael D and Everyone
Subject: Discussion NOT about Raja Ji is getting lost ...
Message:
in this thread, which is, IMO the most important point. I think it is a side issue that Dettmers had lunch with an old friend, who happens to be a rich-boy probably fun, charming leach off the family coffers. If Mike D has an in to the nest of hornets, that's a side issue. Raja Ji is a leach off the family business, but not a direct party, just a beneficiary.

The important point Mike made -- to me -- is his observations about the repent and recant issue, and do we care? posts. Mike's take is that the Rat would find a way to blame his way out of it. Or the old divide and conquer, as Donner spoke of.

I don't think this in an angle that the rest of us focused on -- that M will not change his stripes overnight. He has been the queen bee of a large hive. The MVP. He is going to save his own ass at all costs. He cannot help but smell the coffee at some point. He may be smelling it now, or he will smell it soon. And he will try to do spin control, and damage control. It will certainly be everyone else's fault, and he will twist himself into a new revision so that the deluded will still be able to follow.

EPO is for those who have, or wish to, drop off the rotting turnip truck. --f

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Date: Fri, Mar 30, 2001 at 20:28:32 (GMT)
From: Dermot
Email: None
To: Francesca
Subject: Discussion NOT about Raja Ji is getting lost ...
Message:
....and the sad thing is many premies and EX premies would be happy for PREM PAL AND DHARAM SINGH RAWAT ..... to keep their ill gotten gains and slink off to Mauritus or wherever as long as they 'sort of ' of 'partially' admit 'something' ...'anything'.

In other fields they'd be stripped of their assets and incarcerated for the damage done to so many sincere trusting people.

Dermot

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Date: Fri, Mar 30, 2001 at 22:13:24 (GMT)
From: Jerry
Email: None
To: Dermot
Subject: Discussion NOT about Raja Ji is getting lost ...
Message:
I don't want any apologies, and I'm not interested in seeing M change his stripes, either. I just want to see Maharaji and his bag of myths and legends fade away into history the same as all others eventually do. But as long as people hold fast to his basic philosophy, that there's this place within, put there by a loving creator, for us to dive into for a reprieve from life's trials, and all that's needed to find it is the loving care of the 'master', I guess he won't be going anywhere soon, and as they say, there's a sucker born every minute. As long as that's the case, that's how long there'll be the Maharajis of the world among us.
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Date: Fri, Mar 30, 2001 at 21:29:58 (GMT)
From: JHB
Email: None
To: Dermot
Subject: How do you justify this claim?
Message:
Which ex-premies say thay would be happy for the Rawat brothers to slink off to Mauritius and keep all their ill-gotten gains?

It's not a view I've ever heard. Of course, most exes would like to, and need to, get on with their lives, so if the Rawat brothers did that, the exes wouldn't be chasing them across the planet with their legal advisers.

So, Dermot, I don't know why you're so angry with us, but as you've made the accusation, you have to justify it.

John.

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Date: Fri, Mar 30, 2001 at 22:01:24 (GMT)
From: Dermot
Email: None
To: JHB
Subject: How do you justify this claim?
Message:
John

Before anything I want to say I don't want to bicker with you in nasty sort of way....I like and respect you too much for that.....as you know when I emailed you about our 'journeys'

But having said that ....

1. I said 'the sad thing is' ....that is not anger it is sadness that such an outcome would be acceptable.

2.I am not angry with 'us' ie all the ex-premies ....I merely pointed out some premies and ex's would be happy with that.

3. the justification ( I don't want to name an individual(s) just yet ....I've searched for the post and it does exist.....I think it is one of 3 people and I think it is a PAM (and whoever said it is perfectly entitled to their opinion as I am mine)

The particular post was posted TODAY ....in it reference was made to the fact that Prem Pal now has enough wealth to retire comfortably and stillgive money to those severley damaged ie jagdeos victims etc etc.

My immediate thought was 'why accept and allow that he should retire comfortably on ill gotten gains' ie money from trusting sincere premies......$30, ooo of it yours if I'm not mistaken.

Why should he? most Premies would accept that ....this ex thinks that ....and I'm assuming (perhaps this is where I fall down as I'm referring to one ex ...but It wouldn't surprise me if there's more) think that.

I think that justifies my post 100 %

Don't you??

Cheers

Dermot

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Date: Fri, Mar 30, 2001 at 22:15:27 (GMT)
From: JHB
Email: None
To: Dermot
Subject: How do you justify this claim?
Message:
No it doesn't justify your post. Direct your arguments more precisely. If an individual has said something you disagree with, then confront them, but don't point your spray gun at an undefined larger group of exes (you said 'many ex-Premies').

No, this won't degenerate into a slanging match, I just think you're expressing your justifiable anger here a little too loosely:-)

John.

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Date: Fri, Mar 30, 2001 at 23:00:49 (GMT)
From: Dermot
Email: None
To: JHB
Subject: How do you justify this claim?
Message:
Point taken .....you think it doesn't justify it I think it does (but only partially-:))

But more seriously ....you're right ....most of my posts ( tonight at least) are not focussed enough ....not adequately though tout

well I'll live and learn.....I hope!!

Cheers

Dermot

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Date: Fri, Mar 30, 2001 at 19:12:46 (GMT)
From: Richard
Email: None
To: Michael Dettmers
Subject: Thank you for the update
Message:
I believe you acted in integrity and have done everyone, including RJ, a service by expressing your concerns to a fellow human being. Whatever comes from that is strictly RJ's concern alone. Nothing is to be gained by betraying another's trust.
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Date: Fri, Mar 30, 2001 at 18:16:05 (GMT)
From: Pat Conlon
Email: None
To: Michael Dettmers
Subject: Spin-control for Indian premies
Message:
Dettmers said: ''I can imagine a scenario in which he admits to his drinking and sexual addictions by blaming it on the corrupting influence of manipulative PAMs and licentious women who were bent on exploiting his innocence for their personal gain in much the same way his mother Mata Ji tried to blame Sampurnanand and Marolyn for his corrupt western ways when the family split up.''

Many of the western PWKs have known about the debauchery (but not the illegalities) for quite sometime. But the reports of boozing, adultery and meat-eating will definitely alienate most of the devout Indian premies who are very conservative and frown on that sort of behavior.

Michael I am glad that you had the opportunity to tell Raja Ji your story but I doubt if it will ever get back to Rev Rawat.

It is time to do a Hindi version of EPO.

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Date: Sat, Mar 31, 2001 at 01:44:49 (GMT)
From: Apologies R Us
Email: None
To: Pat Conlon, Dettmers, et
Subject: Spin Control
Message:
The only mea culpa you can expect from m goes something like this: Don't crucify the messenger. I am just the vessel that God's message come through. I am not bodily perfect and I am not perfect in my behavior. I am the oracle, yet the vehicle is human. To err is human, to forgive is divine, and the spirit just keeps on truckin'
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Date: Sat, Mar 31, 2001 at 04:59:03 (GMT)
From: Pat Conlon
Email: None
To: Apologies R Us
Subject: to forgive is divine - too true - who're you? NT
Message:
k
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Date: Sat, Mar 31, 2001 at 20:19:47 (GMT)
From: Gary Epton
Email: None
To: Pat Conlon
Subject: to forgive is divine - too true - who're you? NT
Message:
Sorry Pat - me again.
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Date: Sat, Mar 31, 2001 at 21:26:25 (GMT)
From: Pat Conlon
Email: None
To: Gary Epton
Subject: Oops, Gary, too many names. I'm not psychic NT
Message:
h
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Date: Fri, Mar 30, 2001 at 17:24:43 (GMT)
From: Ulf
Email: None
To: Michael Dettmers
Subject: Raja Ji, Patrick W., care? etc.
Message:
I think i understand how hard it is for you , wanting to
be true to your word.
Have you ever read about the Coventry syndrom , world war 2 ?

Regards Ulf

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Date: Fri, Mar 30, 2001 at 17:08:57 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Michael Dettmers
Subject: Oh, Michael -- what a pickle!
Message:
Hi Mike,

I fully appreciate and support you in your efforts, agree with your comments above and extend to you a hearty, early morning Vancouver Island 'hello'. We're not Latvians here but we do have our customs. So, let me simply say, as we do here in our quiet little nook of paradise, hello. Hello, Michael.

But, God, Mike, how can you maintain this committment to Raja Ji? Or, put another way, how can you do it ethically? Or, put another way, how can you DO this to us? Raja Ji, for all his personal qualities which, I'm sure, are abundant, is a member of the former Holy Family and, more to the point, a significant perpetrator, not to mention, beneficiarly of the cult bullshit we suffered and, let's not forget (if you consider the broader, collective 'we', i.e. those still in), suffer. In short, he's a major player in an ongoing fraud. How can you share confidences with him and tell us about it?

Sorry, I understand the sentiment. I just don't get the thinking.

By the way, are you at least free to say whether or not he said hello to ME? Just asking.

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Date: Fri, Mar 30, 2001 at 17:30:07 (GMT)
From: Michael Dettmers
Email: dettmers@gylanix.com
To: Jim
Subject: Oh, Michael -- what a pickle!
Message:
But, God, Mike, how can you maintain this committment to Raja Ji? Or, put another way, how can you do it ethically?

The way I see it Jim, I had two choices. One was to meet with Raja Ji and agree to his request for confidentiality, or decide not to meet with him. It was not an option for me to agree to his request and then to break my agreement. I chose to meet with him and used it as an opportunity to share with him my own process of coming to grips with my involvement in the cult, and to clearly express first hand my views about Maharaji. As a friend, I owed him that much. Who knows what effect, if any it may have. But, at least, he now knows where I stand and how I got here.

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Date: Sat, Mar 31, 2001 at 03:11:05 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Michael Dettmers
Subject: Dilemna? No? Hmmmmm...........
Message:
Mike,

You know I like you. I'm sure we'll have lunch one day too, perhaps. But, Mike, I'm afraid I'm going to have to have you arrested. You understand, huh? The cause and everything......

No, seriously, this is problematic and let me tell you why. Before you met with Raja Ji, you and I might have talked or emailed each other as we have before. Say the conversation drifted to what, if anything, RJ might say or do, should you ever contact him. After all, that's one of the big curiosities here -- what on earth is happening in the House of Rawat and how, if at all, is EPO affecting it. But now I can't ask you that. You suddenly have gotten this choice, select insight that you're beholden to keep mum about.

But maybe I can ask you. Maybe you'll let me, or this one or that one, maybe donner, say, in on the goods. Well, first, that would still be betraying your promise to RJ. In addition, it creates a new kind of 'x-rated' quality that sofar we've been fortunate enough to avoid. There are no insiders here (or, if there are, I guess I'm sure not one of them!).

See the problem? How can you ever join the rest of us 'innocents' in even talking about these matters? You're sworn to secrecy all over again.

You know, that one time I met with RJ for a drink downstairs at my office when I lived in L.A. I'm sure He [joke!] never expected me to blab all over what he told me. I'm sure he expected me to cherish his confidence as he solemnly commisserated with my frustration with his brother, the cult leader. I'm just glad I never promised nothing in that regard. Mind you, this was before the net and all that. He never imagined that information could flow so well so fast.

Elsewhere, you say that RJ has 'honoured your friendship'. How exactly did he do that, Michael? By calling you back? By getting together for lunch? I don't know. I think that it's sad, sad, sad, that the one guy who might have any sway with the guy can't even talk about him frankly any more.

Maybe donner can talk with him some day. Mind you, I'm sure the terms will be likewise. And then what have we got?

Look, I don't pretend to have all the answers but, don't forget, I'm a lawyer. I look for problems. :) I think I've found one.

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Date: Sat, Mar 31, 2001 at 06:26:15 (GMT)
From: Michael Dettmers
Email: dettmers@gylanix.com
To: Jim
Subject: Dilemna? No? Hmmmmm...........
Message:
Jim,

I am currently in contact by phone and by e-mail with a couple of premies who were PAMs many years ago, and who still consider themselves premies. They are troubled by my reports on the Forum and we are in the midst of discussing their concerns. They have asked me to keep our conversations confidential and I am doing so. In fact, I completely understand why they would prefer to keep these conversations private as they are in the midst of processing perhaps the most significant aspect in their lives. Why would I not extend the same courtesy to Raja Ji, even if I didn’t consider him a friend? He was open to meeting with me, and I took the opportunity to explain to him why I have taken the stand I have taken with Maharaji.

Jim, your curiosity is understandable but not always appropriate. As I said, I would have preferred that Patrick had never posted my possible meeting with Raja Ji. On the other hand, if I met with Raja Ji and didn’t tell anyone, and then it leaked, I might be accused of deception. Sometimes it is not possible to please everyone. Such is life.

Michael

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Date: Sat, Mar 31, 2001 at 14:00:09 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Michael Dettmers
Subject: Raja Ji's different
Message:
I am currently in contact by phone and by e-mail with a couple of premies who were PAMs many years ago, and who still consider themselves premies. They are troubled by my reports on the Forum and we are in the midst of discussing their concerns. They have asked me to keep our conversations confidential and I am doing so. In fact, I completely understand why they would prefer to keep these conversations private as they are in the midst of processing perhaps the most significant aspect in their lives. Why would I not extend the same courtesy to Raja Ji, even if I didn’t consider him a friend? He was open to meeting with me, and I took the opportunity to explain to him why I have taken the stand I have taken with Maharaji.

Big difference, for [to?] my money. Raja Ji's a principle perpetrator and beneficiary of the cult fraud. He's not just a former PAM. We used to be able to at least talk about what he might be thinking, what he might ever some day say or do, depending on if he learns this or that, if such and such a thing happens. All speculation, all shared, all open. Now it's like your big secret or something. Yeah, that bugs me. What's the use of talking with you about any of this now? What can you do but patronizingly nod and smile?

I repeat, wouldn't it be nice if one of us could actually get through to Raja Ji one day? Oh, what's that you say? One of us did? Really? Well, what happened? ...... Oh, I see ......none of my business.... Okaaaaaaaayyyyyyyyyy......

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Date: Sat, Mar 31, 2001 at 20:11:09 (GMT)
From: Cynthia
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Jim...Re: Dettmers and Raja Ji...
Message:
Hi!

Yesterday I was not bothered at all by Dettmers posting about the meeting then not being able to reveal what transpired.

Your post made me think about the secrecy issues within a cult, how they have changed/affected my life and how I feel about secrets. I also remember what I've learned about boundaries. So I'm undecided about this.

The main issue for me is Raja Ji, brother of Prem and beneficiary of the cult's financial resources. I don't know if he is a premie or not. Of course he has K, but does he worship his brother, Prem? How does he feel about his position of being supported by premies who DO think Prem's the lord? And so on.

I'd like to know. But, Michael does have integrity and I respect that he went to that meeting knowing he couldn't divulge to us or anyone the discussions which took place. I suspect Raja Ji got an earful. I hope so.

I think I have an answer to your dilemma about speaking with Michael about Raja Ji. Don't change anything about how you communicate with Michael. You can still ask him anything you want, and if he can answer, he will. It's his responsibility to tell you if he can't answer your question, so if I were you, I wouldn't censor yourself with him vis a vis what you talk to him about.

And I'm not talking about a cross-examination here. Just the relationship the two of you have created here.

Just my 2Cents Worth,
Love,
Cynth

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Date: Sat, Mar 31, 2001 at 03:18:44 (GMT)
From: Dermot
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Exactly Jim...like I said...it's messy (nt)
Message:
zz
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Date: Fri, Mar 30, 2001 at 18:42:18 (GMT)
From: donner
Email: None
To: Michael Dettmers
Subject: Oh, Michael -- what a pickle!
Message:
right on...i would have done the same. i do the same with 'lesser' pwk.
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Date: Fri, Mar 30, 2001 at 18:41:52 (GMT)
From: Brian
Email: brian@ex-premie.org
To: Michael Dettmers
Subject: Good for you
Message:
Thanks for sharing what you could, Michael. And I personally applaud your not being swayed by what others want you to divulge.

What makes you a credible source of information to me isn't that you tell everyone everything that you know, but that you demonstrate a level of integrity that shows me that what you do share is trustworthy.

I agree with your views that Maharaji will never own up to more truth than is required to continue to tell his more-profitable lies.

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Date: Fri, Mar 30, 2001 at 20:59:55 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Brian
Subject: Transparent-slam-against-Jim-time, Brian?
Message:
Nice to hear from you again!
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Date: Sat, Mar 31, 2001 at 10:33:39 (GMT)
From: Anonomousie
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Is it Jim slamming time again?.....nt
Message:
dfxh
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Date: Fri, Mar 30, 2001 at 18:52:01 (GMT)
From: Dermot
Email: None
To: Brian
Subject: Btw Brian
Message:
I'm not trying to impugn MD's integrity....I know you never said I did .....but a little bit of an implication could be construed from your post.

I respect MD ... I do. But as far as I'm concerned this conflict of interest- friends with Dharam Singh Rawat .....and our stanace vis a vis the Rawats is best KEPT 100 PER CENT OFF THE FORUM.

I f we are in the dark so be it .... so keep it off the forum. period. UNTIL THE CON ARTIST DHARAm SINGH RAWAT IS PREPARED TO COME CLEAN WITH ALL OF US .....

Best Regards

Dermot

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Date: Fri, Mar 30, 2001 at 19:50:51 (GMT)
From: Brian
Email: brian@ex-premie.org
To: Dermot
Subject: I don't think so
Message:
I'm not trying to impugn MD's integrity... I know you never said I did... but a little bit of an implication could be construed from your post.

I shouldn't praise someone's integrity because doing so implies that you didn't?

That viewpoint would have me 'implying' that everyone who isn't me holds a different viewpoint than my own, and I should therefore not post rather than offend anyone who isn't signing my post. I don't think so.

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Date: Fri, Mar 30, 2001 at 19:55:53 (GMT)
From: Dermot
Email: None
To: Brian
Subject: Yep..you win on that one-:)) (nt)
Message:
zz
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Date: Fri, Mar 30, 2001 at 18:16:12 (GMT)
From: Dermot
Email: None
To: Michael Dettmers
Subject: Why the fuck did you and PW
Message:
Tell us about this strictly private and confidential meeting then ???????? What's the fucking point Michael ??? So we know what?
Nothing that's what we know.

Presumably PW knew that your meeting with Raji ( fuck that name 'great king') whats his name? Dharam or something. So why did PW first mention it .....and you now mentioning it here ......it has ZILCH value.

HE'S A CULPABLE WITH THE FRAUD AND CON AS HIS BROTHER ( it's a family business isn't it?).

So he's your friend ......then keep that friendship to yourself of this PUBLIC EX-PREMIE FORUM IN FUTURE. THAT'S MY OPINION.
..... and who gives a flying fuck whether Dharam singh Rawat say's hello to Jim or not .....what's that got to do with anything??......though I guess Jimbo was tongue in cheek about that.

Sorry for this angry post but it really pissed me off.

Prem and Dharam Singh Rawat are conning peoples hearts mids and souls all over this world. And they'll milk it till they go to their graves if they can get away with it.

Other wise .....Best Regards to you Michael....

Cheers

Dermot

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Date: Fri, Mar 30, 2001 at 19:23:23 (GMT)
From: Patrick W
Email: None
To: Dermot
Subject: Why the fuck did you and PW
Message:
Subject: Why the fuck did you and PW tell us about this strictly private and confidential meeting then ???????? What's the fucking point Michael ??? So we know what?
Nothing that's what we know.

Chill out Dermot - and by the way, I know no more than you about what they talked about in this meeting either. I fully expected it to be a private affair actually - that's undoubtedly to do with Raja Ji's pre-conditions to this meeting rather than Michael's of course. Michael is rightly honouring his agreement with Raja Ji not to broadcast the nature of their discussion. My take it's that it's very good that they spoke and right that he should do so.

A lot of premies and ex-premies, believe it or not, do not want the secrecy and denial to continue. The very fact that Michael has publically stated that he even had this discussion with Maharaji's 'ambassador' (for that's what we were once told he was) means that premies will take this whole thing more seriously. If you get all cross with Michael (or me) for telling you then I think you're missing the point badly.

Are you suggesting that there should be no discussion, diplomacy, friendliness or negotiation -in short - no communication between so-called ex-premies and premies? I think that anything that blurs the already divisive distinctions between those who are supposed to have 'walked' and those who count themselves as 'on board' the good ship 'Maharaji' as it were, is a good step.

Maharaji says that he expects 'opposition' - 'There has always been opposition to The Master' - as if the fact that former premies are not prepared to let him off the hook for the stuff he put them through, somehow proves his status even more. He both aggrandises himself and distracts from the relevance of the criticisms of his critics at a stroke by saying this.

It's almost as if he is painting the picture that his opposition is coming from some group who have had no experience of what this is all about - from outside - from the 'Arya Samaj' or the Romans or something -people who have no understanding of his teachings and who just object to him for whatever reasons.

Not so in this case. My experience is that in this current story, the criticism is coming largely from those very people who practised exactly what he asked to the hilt. His closest and most attentive and sincere followers in fact. I can say that for myself. I followed his instructions very closely and gave up everything to practice knowledge and obey him - a large portion of my life in fact.

I feel that the 'us and them' aspect of ex-premies versus premies is extremely divisive stuff and that it suits Maharaji in some ways that these current discussions, meetings etc. betweeen FORMER FRIENDS in many cases, are seen to devolve into mistrust and fighting. It distracts from the fact that we were ALL once very into this whole thing and some of us are not prepared to just embark on a campaign of trashing the whole thing, torpedoing the whole ship with all our friends and loved ones still on board.

There are many exes (mostly those who have not been so recently involved) who clearly are having a great time planning the destruction of the cult - don't give a shit who suffers in the process . People like myself are sensitive to the feelings of loyalty and the sincerely held beliefs of remaining friends who are premies and prefer to conduct a more internal revolution for the moment.

I imagine that I share some of the feelings of people like Erica for instance - who want to give Maharaji a chance to come clean or at least to oferr a satisfactory explanation.

Donner asked me what I think about whether a repentant Maharaji would make a difference. I say resoundingly YES. I think Maharaji has, in the minds of premies, to be given the opportunity to make some redress. Premies will soon stop defending and supporting him if he does not show the strength of character to do this.

Mike's meeting was extremely important in communicating to premies at large that the message has been received at a high level (we all know Raja Ji is only the 'Lords brother' -but that's still considered by many as pretty high level!)

One of the ways that Maharaji has so far successfully avoided addressing the issues and problems that have occurred in his mission, is by saying that he never received the complaint (as in Abi's case I believe). Some people have reported that he gets very cross with premie messengers that deliver bad news -that he apparently does not want to hear. So he never heard the complaint so he never had to do anything right? Plausable deniability.

Now here we have Michael delivering the message to his brother, very publically, that there is a forum to which a great many of his bro's followers are glued,and where a number of former followers are demanding that the things that he would brush under the carpet are addressed. Now there is NO plausible deniability about the delivery of this message.

OK so we don't know the exact content of their discussion but we know that Michael drew Raja Ji's attention to the forum and it's issues. That my friend, was 'the fucking point' as you put it.

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Date: Sun, Apr 01, 2001 at 15:21:20 (GMT)
From: And On Anand Ji
Email: and_on_anand@yahoo.com
To: Patrick W
Subject: Why the eff did you and PW
Message:
OK so we don't know the exact content of their discussion but we know that Michael drew Raja Ji's attention to the forum and it's issues. That my friend, was 'the fucking point' as you put it.

Spot-on, Patrick. Nice post.

-And On Anand Ji

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Date: Fri, Mar 30, 2001 at 19:47:39 (GMT)
From: Dermot
Email: None
To: Patrick W
Subject: Patrick
Message:
Your long was post was well written and interesting.

I'll try to deal with the main points you made.

Of course I don't want the secrecy and denial to continue either.
The sooner everything is out in the open the better it will be for everyone. Except perhaps who will suffer because their dreams of the 'Lord ' are shattered.They , or some of them, will probably suffer greatly and some may breakdown completely. However, sadly, that's a price worht paying for the sake of truth and honesty.

YES Yes yes there should be 'communication' between premies and ex's BUT I dont consider Raja ji a premie as such .....In my opinion ALL premies are victims IF it's true Prem Pal is a con. I'm convinced he is.Therefore all premies are victims of his con.
I do not consider RAJA JI a premie. I strongly believe he knows his bro is a con but has just been milking it along with him.He is a amjor part of the problem.

In my view there is no 'us and them '.....most, not all, of my closest, dearest friends are premies.My beef is with Prem and his brother.

For the rest of your post.....yup do what you gotta do .....same with MD etc....of course some form of 'negotiation' has to take place.

Maybe my anger with the 2 Rawat bros got the better of me with my effing and blinding post. My gut feeling though is that somewhere in my posts I'm right ( hahah) but my emotion prevented me from getting to the root of it and then expressing it . duhhh.

Anyway alls fair in love and war ....blah blah blah

Cheers

Dermot

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Date: Fri, Mar 30, 2001 at 18:53:34 (GMT)
From: Michael Dettmers
Email: dettmers@gylanix.com
To: Dermot
Subject: Why the fuck did you and PW
Message:
Dermot,

Patrick decided on his own to report that we had made an effort to contact Raja Ji. When I read his post the next morning, I told him I would have preferred if he had not mentioned it, but by then it was too late. Subsequently, Jim asked me to report on my meeting with Raja ji. Rather than ignore his request or pretend that the meeting didn't happen, I wrote what I wrote.

Michael

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Date: Sat, Mar 31, 2001 at 08:26:30 (GMT)
From: janet the scold
Email: None
To: Michael Dettmers
Subject: tsk! with no synchronization! see what happens?
Message:
when are all you chaotic ex premies going to realize how much smoother things go when you get synchronized before participation??? no wonder The Master doesn't let everybody go off in their own direction! why, just look at all this uproar! I don't understand it!
when are you all just going to see sense and stop arguing and come back to him and just sit down and start listening and start breathing together again??? I'm just going to go inside, and smooth my tablecloths now.
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Date: Fri, Mar 30, 2001 at 19:06:48 (GMT)
From: Pat Conlon
Email: None
To: Michael Dettmers
Subject: Mr Dettmers you are a honorable man
Message:
I hope you know by now that I trust you completely and you have now satisfactorily answered any questions I had about why you mentioned the meeting with Number Two.
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Date: Fri, Mar 30, 2001 at 19:29:15 (GMT)
From: cq
Email: None
To: Pat Conlon
Subject: Steady, Pat. Shades of Mark Anthony, no? (nt)
Message:
'and they are all honourable men ...' (William Shakespeare, 'Julius Caesar' - and, yes I know you knew that)
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Date: Fri, Mar 30, 2001 at 20:01:52 (GMT)
From: Dermot
Email: None
To: cq
Subject: cq you're making me chuckle tonight-:)) (nt)
Message:
z
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Date: Fri, Mar 30, 2001 at 20:06:18 (GMT)
From: Pat Conlon
Email: None
To: Dermot
Subject: I'm a dumb yank so I missed the joke (nt)
Message:
k
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Date: Fri, Mar 30, 2001 at 19:04:09 (GMT)
From: Dermot
Email: None
To: Michael Dettmers
Subject: Michael Dett
Message:
Well that's a very clear answer Michael. Very plausible .

My anger is not directed at you and PW really ....I'm just sick to death of the Rawts. I know you are friends with Dharam (?) and I honestly DO respect that.. but that also makes it very messy.

Thanks for your answer Anyway.

Best Regards

Dermot

PS I occasionally shoot from the hip and let emotion override cool detachment......hmmmmm

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Date: Fri, Mar 30, 2001 at 19:28:54 (GMT)
From: Marianne
Email: delores@gofree.indigo.ie
To: Dermot
Subject: Angry Irish lad
Message:
Well, Dermot, I actually agree with some of the sentiments you have expressed. But, I think one of the big lessons I've learned this last week with the asshole premies (not all of them are asshholes-- I mean the latest virulent variety) and with the 'I quit' announcements, is that we're all dealing with this in our own ways. For all I know, Michael told Captain Rawat's brother that he ought to get M to pay reparations to Abi and Susan, among others. If he did, then I thank him.

We have all developed our own ideas about what should happen and how, but I think it is necessary that the struggle occur on many fronts, and be conducted in many different manners. When we published the MRC letter, it created lots of drama here. Some exes bitterly disputed what we did. But, the letter also forced EV's hand, and they published the FAQ's, which have definite legal implications should any litigation ever come about.

I would never talk to these people (the Rawats) face to face. I'd talk to their lawyers though. I don't think we can quite forsee the results of meetings like this. I commend Michael for doing it in any event, even though I find the thought personally distasteful. It's his decision. And it may have done some good.

You often write things here with which I agree. You often express your ideas in a passionate way that strikes a chord with me. These posts help others to figure out where they stand on the issues, and decide what action, if any, they intend to take. Look at Jim Sanders' letter to his premie community in North Carolina. That's a perfect example of someone taking individual action designed to educate others and freeing himself in one fell swoop.

I heartily encourage your passionate and heartfelt posts. I also support Michael and Patrick's decision to meet with Brother Rawat, even though I'd never do it. That's the beauty of the forum and EPO. No lock step. Freedom. Disputes. Differences. Agreements. No one telling us what to do. Thinking things through for ourselves, making progress in our own, individual lives, mistake my mistake, success by success.

Feeling philosophical lately,
Marianne

PS The subject title was a joke, but I didn't need to tell you that, did I?

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Date: Fri, Mar 30, 2001 at 20:41:33 (GMT)
From: Marianne
Email: None
To: Marianne
Subject: Angry Irish lad
Message:
Hi Babes

I'm all out of long posts now.....my emotional anger took over my brain tonight ......lost a little bit of my thinking capacity hahaha

Always nice to hear from you .......you going to Australia next?

Jeeze you get around

Best Wishes

Paddy Malone

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Date: Fri, Mar 30, 2001 at 20:53:49 (GMT)
From: Dermot
Email: None
To: Marianne
Subject: oops sorry Marianne, from Dermot 'thick Mick'(nt)
Message:
zz
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Date: Fri, Mar 30, 2001 at 21:38:08 (GMT)
From: Marianne
Email: delores@gofree.indigo.ie
To: Dermot
Subject: Thick Mick
Message:
Send me yer email and I'll tell you all about my next trip -- to Aussieland.

Marianne

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Date: Fri, Mar 30, 2001 at 18:40:14 (GMT)
From: cq
Email: None
To: Dermot
Subject: old habits die hard ...
Message:
... and still the pond life gets told nothin'

Well to be honest Dermot, I too was kind of pissed at what appeared at first sight to be a major tease on Mike's part, and was going to ask MD much the same question as you have, though perhaps in a somewhat more moderated tone (but perhaps that's my problem.)

But then I thought to myself, what's a diplomat like Mike supposed to do? Sever all ties? uh-uh, that's not in the job description.

Mike, I think, is at least keeping the lines of communication open between exes and those, like Raj/Dharma (is that his real name?) who are close to the 'throne', as it were.

Mike might not be in a position to divulge the details of his conversation, but since the meeting wouldn't even have taken place without that requisite, I don't think any blame should be left at his door for what he's done.

One day, perhaps, the Maha and his minions might feel brave enough to attempt to communicate with us ex-followers. After all, it's evident that we can and do have an effect on his fortunes. We gave him power over us. We can also take that power away.

And there's one more thing Master Maha would be well advised not to forget, - and that's the undeniable fact that ex-premies far outnumber current ones.

His premie-resource has always been dwindling, ever since the late 70s.

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Date: Fri, Mar 30, 2001 at 18:22:40 (GMT)
From: JHB
Email: None
To: Dermot
Subject: Why the fuck did you and PW
Message:
I think hearing this has some value. We now know that Raja Ji has heard first hand Dettmers' reason for renouncing Maharaji. I find that interesting.

Thanks, Michael.

John.

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Date: Fri, Mar 30, 2001 at 18:30:22 (GMT)
From: DERMOT
Email: None
To: JHB
Subject: John....NO !
Message:
Dharam singh can read the forum like the rest of us ,,,,,,,I took it for 100 per cent that he read MD's reasons on the forum .

So what !!!!!!!!!!!

Best Wishes

Dermot

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Date: Fri, Mar 30, 2001 at 18:36:14 (GMT)
From: Pat Conlon
Email: None
To: DERMOT
Subject: Dermot, the same thought crossed my mind
Message:
Dettmers' post did come across as a bit of a puff piece or showing off the feather in his cap that he had schmooze-fest with number two. I hope that was not the intention. Say it ain't so, Michael.
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Date: Fri, Mar 30, 2001 at 18:52:16 (GMT)
From: donner
Email: None
To: Pat Conlon
Subject: Dermot, the same thought crossed my mind
Message:
hi pat...boy, you are hard core! i would never assume that r.j. has read forum...nor would i pass on an opportunity to share my process with someone i have a very long history with who is stil influential in the cult. i'd take the time to give it one more go and figure it couldn't hurt...especially a friend...have done so recently and will do it possible in future. i didn't get the impression of puff peice...rather a brother getting back to the forum after long and probably tiring trip...give the guy a break! and besides he doesn't even have a cap for all his feathers.
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Date: Fri, Mar 30, 2001 at 19:50:08 (GMT)
From: Cynthia
Email: None
To: donner
Subject: donner, I'd bet RJ has read F5...
Message:
In 1998 or '99, RJ was doing a fundrasing tour and had a program in Boston, which I didn't attend but my sister did. This was when m first put up his own website.

During his speech, RJ said (paraphrased) Look at both of the sites, both the good and the bad, and make your choice....

I made the assumption that RJ did/does read the site, but it's purely speculation.

Because I was still involved then and didn't have a computer, I went to the library and looked at both sites. Well, you know where I eventually ended up.

As far as M. Dettmers meeting w/RJ, I think it's a good ''in.'' I respect that Michael can keep confidences. I don't care what they spoke about, either. Michael's straightforward here about how he feels about m, and I'm sure he was with RJ.

Details? I personally don't need them. I don't grok the uproar about it.

Best,
Cynthia

P.S. Did I say bet? I take that back! Or I'll bet you a quarter!

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Date: Fri, Mar 30, 2001 at 20:37:39 (GMT)
From: Dermot
Email: None
To: Cynthia
Subject: 99.9 % of course he's read this site !! (nt)
Message:
zz
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Date: Fri, Mar 30, 2001 at 21:48:21 (GMT)
From: donner
Email: None
To: Dermot
Subject: 99.9 % of course he's read this site !! (nt)
Message:
what do you base your opinion upon...could be true of course but i would guess not. also, he is not a computer person anyways but why do you think he does?
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Date: Fri, Mar 30, 2001 at 22:32:16 (GMT)
From: Dermot
Email: None
To: donner
Subject: 99.9 % of course he's read this site !! (nt)
Message:
Hi Mike

You don't need to be a computer person to get to this site....it's a source of information like a book, magazine,tv prog,radio prog .....etc if as MDsays they've kept in touch presumably he'd know Michael (a) left the cult and (b) joined the website on it's front page and in the forum.

Given 'raja jis' involvement with the cult It would be a strange un-curious human INDEED if he didnt check out what was being written about his benefactor Prem Pal and more importantly what wwas being written in PUBLIC FORUM about himself.Natural human curiosity would almost FORCE him to read it. If a top exec of Coca Cola knew that a media outlet was pumping out anti-coca cola stuff and naming executives .....the least they'd do was READ it.Unless they were totally thick.

So basically that's what I base it on.

Cheers

Dermot

ps if I ever get on yer tits .....I'm not as bad I seem .....my bark is worse than my bite ...I'm not the malicious sort -:))

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Date: Fri, Mar 30, 2001 at 19:14:21 (GMT)
From: Pat Conlon
Email: None
To: donner
Subject: Yes, Donner, I am hardcore anti-gurujism
Message:
I've made it very clear that I will not attck or blame PWKs but Number Two Ji is not a PWK. Although basically a parasite, he's part of the Rawat family business. I realize that you are more of a gentleman than I am but, while I keep the gloves on for PWKs, I take them off for officers of Rawat Inc.
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Date: Fri, Mar 30, 2001 at 21:59:59 (GMT)
From: donner
Email: None
To: Pat Conlon
Subject: Yes, Donner, I am hardcore anti-gurujism
Message:
ok pat...when it comes to rj but you seemed so intense this morning re michael...anyways this thread digresses. no problem
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Date: Fri, Mar 30, 2001 at 18:58:24 (GMT)
From: Dermot
Email: None
To: donner
Subject: Donner ...can u read ?????
Message:
No one is saying he shouldnt respect his friendship and I greatly resent you implying such things .I say until the con artist Dharam singh Rawat and his bro come clean then let's not pussyfoot around giving them special treatment. HE'S PART OF A HUGE CON .

If MD is friends ....ok .....nothing wrong with that.

But mixing it in private fully and then PARTIALLY on the forum is stupid IMO.

bEST WISHES

dERMOT

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Date: Fri, Mar 30, 2001 at 22:02:51 (GMT)
From: donner
Email: None
To: Dermot
Subject: Donner ...can u read ?????
Message:
you seemed to take some personal offense...i do not think you had even posted on this thread when i commented above...oh well. i read fairly well actually...but slowly by the way.
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Date: Fri, Mar 30, 2001 at 22:54:03 (GMT)
From: Dermot
Email: None
To: donner
Subject: Donner ...can u read ?????
Message:
hey Mike

Your laid back nonchalent humility shames me -:))

Best Rgards

from

the bull in the china shop

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Date: Fri, Mar 30, 2001 at 19:04:34 (GMT)
From: Francesca
Email: None
To: Dermot
Subject: My husband thought some people were name dropping
Message:
when I told him about some of the posts, for instance when Patrick W (who I respect greatly) mentioned that Dettmers was at his house. My husband was like, 'so?' I'm sure he'd think the same about Dettmers' mention of lunch with Raja, at least after hearing about it on a superficial level.

The bigger issue that Dettmers talked about for me in that post is the fact that even if the cockroach repented and recanted, he'd still blame the whole thing on someone else.

SAD.

Love, f

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Date: Fri, Mar 30, 2001 at 22:52:52 (GMT)
From: Patrick Wilson
Email: None
To: Francesca
Subject: My husband thought some people were name dropping
Message:
Although this was Mike's personal meeting with Raja JI, I felt some involvement I guess - even flattered myself if I am honest - that I had kind of been instrumental in getting them together. Especially since my idea of getting dialogue with Glen had so miserably failed. As I said I think it is a way forward to get people to talk. Clearly that is not by any means a general opinion. I know what I hear on the other hand from premies and they think it is a good idea too.

Anyway I have made fair investment of time in addressing these issues over the years and I am allowing myself to feel quite pleased with myself with this result. So all you critics can basically get stuffed. I am doing my own thing and I couldn't care less if certain people on this forum think it's against 'ex-premie 'policy' - or to do with my desire for ex-premie status. I feel good about it!

Really I think it's very short-sighted to be anything other than in full support for opening communication lines. You guys who just want to fight with Maharaji in my opinion are just playing into his idea that he has these enemies and then premies just defend him all the more vigorously.

Like I said I am sick of (but getting used to) having my intentions misinterpreted here. So again to my detractors - think what you like - I am doing my best to be proactive -if you think I have other motives so be it.

I am aware of the the questionable rewards of name dropping and am not surprised to be accused of such. I did however make Mike's acquaintance under the following circumstances. When I heard he was in London a few months ago (from this forum) I seized the opportunity to ask to talk with him so that I might hear,as it were, from the horses mouth about his revelations. If anything, I hoped that this meeting would clarify some things for me personally, and then naturally others, with whom I was having discussions, indirectly.

I think Mike Finch can relate to this:
One minute you are worshipped because of your association with someone famous (in his case with M. (and have people kissing your feet etc.) and then the next minute you are totally ignored for what you are without 'him' around.
In my case I recall coming from total obscurity (as a status-less ashram worker bee) to myself being somewhat acknowledged and paid attention to as soon as my post-ashram musical work started to be noticed and used by Maharaji.

The prosaicness of the process and circumstances of this sudden interest in me after being so long ignored, made quite a deep impression. So I consider myself relatively immune to the temptations of attempting to bolster my own credibility by associating with others since I am rather acutely sensitive to the transparency of this principle.

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Date: Sat, Mar 31, 2001 at 02:10:48 (GMT)
From: Pat Conlon
Email: None
To: Patrick Wilson
Subject: Patrick W, I concede defeat and bow to your
Message:
more sensible approach.

Since my unfair dig at you I have gone back to look at your posts and have found that you are being true to yourself - a peace loving, kind and honest man who prefers negotiation to confrontation. I actually think that is a far better way to go about doing things than I have done. I also prefer peace to war.

My hitherto confrontational stance has led to me being harassed by email and stalked on FV by anonymous trolls and I do not like that. I know what I am up against and I cannot win. I think your approach is more sensible. I would prefer it if Rev Rawat could reform and ''not loose face'' at the same time, as you have put it.

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Date: Sat, Mar 31, 2001 at 11:04:19 (GMT)
From: Patrick Wilson
Email: None
To: Pat Conlon
Subject: Patrick W, I concede defeat and bow to your
Message:
I would prefer it if Rev Rawat could reform and ''not loose face'' at the same time, as you have put it.

Thanks for taking the trouble to read my posts. I don't think that I actually said that I would prefer it that Maharaji didn't lose face. If you reread that bit I think you will see I was saying that that was what premies most definitely would prefer. Maybe we're driving at the same thing here though.

May be it would be appropriate and even good for Maharaji's soul that he indeed 'lose the faces' which have been scaring premies into all the damaging sorts of submissions we have seen. Underneath I'm sure he has a decent 'face', that is more humble and human that does not need adulation etc.

In the case of someone like Saddam Hussein one can envisage that he would rather die and take a bunch of people with him rather than 'lose face'.

My point is that premies certainly think that M is not in this category even if he has made some mistakes that have cost some people dearly. They think that he has also benefitted others and don't want this part of the equation overlooked.

I can understand this. Regarding my personal feelings of forgiveness. I am by no means full of forgiveness - I seem to be able to forget about the lost years etc when I am immersed in the present. From time to time something happens which reminds me of how miserable I was in the ashram -how scared I was by M's satsangs, how put down I was by his instructors etc. and a wave of injustice kicks in. That reaction is still very much there -which seems to be very much in the forefront of many people's minds here right now also -visa vi Dermot.

I have a friend who is in prison for Cocaine smuggling who shares a cell with a double murderer and hangs out with a cannibal. He is a premie and meditates hours every day. He wrote to me that he finds that even these people have a soft centre if you approach them with heart. I believe people should account to the society in which they live (including Maharaji) for their actions. It's a tricky balance to strike between punishing people harshly and offering them a chance to reform. I feel that the way of reform is the nobler way but sometimes I too think that the only way to deal with crazy destructive people is to destroy them.

My mission over the last few years here has been to not let that be forgotten or brushed under the carpet. Now if Maharaji would address this and apologise I would feel that some sort of justice had been done.

I don't have too much time to write carefully as I would like today so I'll move on to Dermots question now. Thanks Pat.

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Date: Sat, Mar 31, 2001 at 02:29:35 (GMT)
From: Dermot
Email: None
To: Pat Conlon
Subject: Pat C....why should Rawat save face????
Message:
Does he give a shit about you? me? others?

No way mate.....he cares about No 1....

He,s fucked up minds and lives and done very well thank you very much.

The guy deserves NOTHING from us.....he OWES us.

Dermot

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Date: Sat, Mar 31, 2001 at 05:07:00 (GMT)
From: Pat Conlon
Email: None
To: Dermot
Subject: The quality of mercy is not strained.....
Message:
I missed your Shakespearian allusion (I have come to bury Caesar not to praise him) so I'm throwing one back at you. I believe in being merciful because it is good for me.

But more honestly right now I am exhausted from dealing with anonymous trolls and email and feel that my hardline approach is making the Borg scared and in turn they then try to scare me and we end up in a cycle of fear.

I prefer to be merciful, kind, gentle and loving. It solves problems without creating new ones. And it makes me feel superior to my enemies.

Pat, who never was very good at being saintly.

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Date: Sat, Mar 31, 2001 at 10:45:21 (GMT)
From: bill--be hardline, only
Email: None
To: Pat Conlon
Subject: when you lose your humor are you victimized..nt
Message:
sdffh
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Date: Sat, Mar 31, 2001 at 00:33:22 (GMT)
From: Dermot
Email: None
To: Patrick Wilson
Subject: Well said Patrick W ....BUT
Message:
If you have the time and inclination would you please answer a question?

Listen ...first off ...I know you've taken a lot of flak from people (myself included I suppose......yet I don't think Ive ever tried to impugn your, Md's or any other premies or ex-premies INTEGRITY.... only the Rawat family biz).....Anyway the question is this and this will be the THIRD time I've asked it.Once in a direct response to your original 'report' thread....then as a reminder in that thread.....and now here.

Of course you don't have to answer but this IS a forum for discussion so where better to ask ?

I'll try to frame it so that you understand what I'm really getting at.....ok here it goes 'Bearing in mind all your efforts for building bridges and creating dialogue between premies and ex-premies etc let's for arguments sake say you are wholly successful in doing this ....ok?.....then what would be the result or lets say what would be the 'ideal' result in your view?
For instance.....WHERE DO THE RAWATS BROS STAND IN ALL THIS? He continues to ply his trade with premie followers ? He is completely dis-credited ? The EV organisation is disbanded? Rape victims are compensated? .....I'd sincerley like to know what end view you,MD and others taking a proactive stance hope to ultimately achieve? Or maybe you don't see it in those terms....'

....anyway look forward to your reply. BTW were you always so controversial ....even as 'anon'? ;))

Best Regards

Dermot

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Date: Fri, Mar 30, 2001 at 23:06:27 (GMT)
From: Francesca
Email: None
To: Patrick Wilson
Subject: Doing your own thing is a good idea ...
Message:
in some ways. After all, we wouldn't want to start another cult, would we? Every time we get a little concensus or agreement amongst us anyway, we're accused by some posters of being a smarmy new ex-cult.

Then when we bicker and fuss, we're accused of being a bunch of wackos.

Good for you, wherever the process takes you. Keep sharing. I'm all ears.

Love, f

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Date: Fri, Mar 30, 2001 at 22:06:19 (GMT)
From: donner
Email: None
To: Francesca
Subject: My husband thought some people were name dropping
Message:
yes f, that is the main point. we were gettng at that point yesterday as well...what difference will it make if he recants...except for the long line of those still addicted to the cult begging for him to return as lord and master. oh, visions of his triumphant comeback....laughable scenario either way.
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Date: Fri, Mar 30, 2001 at 19:39:27 (GMT)
From: Marianne
Email: None
To: Francesca
Subject: Agree w/Frannie re: repent/recant-nt
Message:
xxxx
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Date: Fri, Mar 30, 2001 at 17:39:26 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Michael Dettmers
Subject: Oh, Michael -- what a pickle!
Message:
Yeah, maybe you've got a point there. Running to court (we're in endgame). Let me think about it. I definitely understand on one level. But let me think about it some more. (Not that you asked, of course.)
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Date: Fri, Mar 30, 2001 at 17:06:01 (GMT)
From: Francesca
Email: None
To: Michael Dettmers
Subject: It's not easy being friends with them
Message:
I appreciate your courage. For us folks who had no personal ties with GMJ and Raja Ji other than our imaginary devotion, I don't have to deal with any of them as people. (I've done years of self psychoanalysis however. Although I was in the band, I have not kept up with Bhole Ji, and the chances of my coming in contact with him are slim to none -- and he wasn't a guru, he was more like a friend.)

Deconstructing the mental baggage is hard enough, as years of posts on this forum will attest. Having to do the face-to-face thing takes integrity and guts. Please continue to share your personal journey.

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Date: Fri, Mar 30, 2001 at 16:37:27 (GMT)
From: Wildflower
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: Life and Growth Beyond M
Message:
Thanks to all who welcomed me! (Patrick C. – I’m looking forward to eating your great food on 6/2)

Does anyone have any interest in discussing life and growth – both spiritual and psychological – beyond m?

Donner, I really appreciated your post about having the same issues that came up with m come up in your marriage, and how you had to face all that in therapy. One thing I found when I had my crisis with m was that all my family of origin issues came flooding in. I am sure one of the things I got in my years with m was a “vacation” for a while from my family of origin stuff. Maybe I was able to even believe I could meditate it all away. But much to my surprise (and unhappiness at the time), all that stuff was out there waiting for me. I too found therapy very helpful. Now, in retrospect, I’m grateful for both the “vacation” and the crisis. I’m a much healthier person now that I’ve worked through all those issues, and my crisis catapulted me right into the thick of all that.

As for the “vacation” years, I think I needed some time away from my issues to see that there was another way to live. I always give credit where it is due. Life in the ashram taught me that I could look at life through a spiritual lens, and while m’s lens didn’t work out in the long run, I still go to the optometry shop of life on a regular basis to check on a working spiritual prescription. I’ve shopped at lots of optometry shops since m, and taken what I liked from each of them to form an eclectic prescription for myself. Some of the things that have been of benefit to me in addition to my years in therapy are:12 step groups, Jewish meditation, Buddhist meditation, Quaker silent worship, exposure to Waldorf (my kid is at a Waldorf school and I’ve done a lot of workshops at the training college), and some books. Two books that come to mind right off the top of my head are A Path With Heart by Jack Kornfield, and My Grandfather’s Blessings by Remen.

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Date: Sat, Mar 31, 2001 at 06:55:51 (GMT)
From: Babs
Email: ralphie@ralphiescafe.com
To: Wildflower
Subject: Current Practice
Message:
My old pal Nona from the Houston ashram recently gave me Jack Kornfield's other book, After the Ecstasy, the Laundry. I really liked it.

I actually went through a kind of basic initiation ritual with a Tibetan lineage based in Boulder. It was a ceremony called 'Taking Refuge.' I was given a Tibetan name, 'Nyingje Gamo,' which means 'Joyful Compassion Lady.'

I wanted to do this because I had been practicing Buddhist techniques of meditation and reading lots of books on Buddhism, but I felt very isolated. Buddhism met all three of my pre-existing conditions for a club I would be willing to join:

1. Nobody asked for or got a single penny at any time. No money. Nothing, nada, zero, zip.

2. I would not be required to attend any meetings, services, lectures, rituals, satsangs, or potlucks.

3. My life would not change in any external way whatsoever.

I am happy to report that the Buddhists welcomed me very warmly and have since left me completely alone. I never gave them any money, and went back to a sangha only once to hear my best friend from high school who was a featured speaker. My life changes all the time, but it always has. Buddhism hasn't changed it any.

Having a practice is having something to hang onto through the changes. I don't think it matters what you do, as long as you do something. (My husband does Tai Chi and I can really tell when he doesn't do it...) I try to sit three times a day, ten minutes each time, because I know I can't concentrate for very long. Never was a very good meditator. More of a service freak.

Not sure the Forum is the right place to talk about current spiritual practice, however. Please e-mail me if you want to continue the conversation.

Love,
Babs

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Date: Sat, Mar 31, 2001 at 21:38:46 (GMT)
From: Wildflower
Email: None
To: Babs
Subject: Current Practice
Message:
Wow, what a great title! I ordered Kornfield's book immediately. Thanks for tip. I can't wait to read it!
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Date: Sun, Apr 01, 2001 at 07:23:50 (GMT)
From: Francesca
Email: None
To: Wildflower and Babs
Subject: Another good one is Thich Nath Hanh
Message:
He is a Vietnamese Buddhist teacher. One of his books is the Miracle of Mindfulness, but he has a host of others on sitting and walking meditation. He was a peace activist during the Vietnam War and has taught at Kornfield's center, Spirit Rock, as well as all over the world, of course. I just spoke with a friend tonight who completed a one month retreat with Jack Kornfield (he just got back home yesterday).

Love - f

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Date: Sun, Apr 01, 2001 at 06:53:48 (GMT)
From: Francesca
Email: None
To: Wildflower
Subject: My friends have raved about that book also n/t
Message:
n/t
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Date: Sat, Mar 31, 2001 at 03:50:01 (GMT)
From: Pat Conlon
Email: None
To: Wildflower
Subject: Hi, Wildflower, we sure have a lot of catching up
Message:
Looking forward to seeing you again after all these years. We have a LOT to talk about and the topic that you have just touched on is a big one which is often discussed on the Recent Ex-premies Forum which Francesca can tell you about.

You will find many of us ready to talk about spiritual growth after Rev Rawat but it sometimes gets lost in the myriads of other topics discussed here.

I am starting to think that we got suckered into Hinduism because it just seemed so much more groovy than say Quaker meditation. But there is a long western tradition of meditation. They may not have called it that but the outcome was the same - peace of mind.

One thing Rawat and most Hindus seem to have forgotten is that the most important ingredient for peace of mind is a clear conscience.

I'm looking forward to seeing you posting here more.

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Date: Sat, Mar 31, 2001 at 03:19:44 (GMT)
From: m and m donner
Email: None
To: Wildflower
Subject: Life and Growth Beyond M
Message:
loved your post and will respond when we return. thanks for posting and see ya in a bit. for now.
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Date: Sat, Mar 31, 2001 at 21:41:28 (GMT)
From: Wildflower
Email: None
To: m and m donner
Subject: Life and Growth Beyond M
Message:
Have a great journey! Looking forward to your response.
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Date: Fri, Mar 30, 2001 at 18:59:46 (GMT)
From: Francesca
Email: None
To: Wildflower
Subject: Eclectic prescriptions
Message:
Yes dear Wildflower, let's hear it for eclectic prescriptions.

Monmot did a great post a week ago or so about paradigm shifts. You could also call it a change of prescription, of sorts, which usually ends up adding something to the mix.

My take on it is that when there's time for a major paradigm shift there is a certain amount of stress and dissonance. The old prescription doesn't do it any more, and yet life is happening, and for me, begs to be accepted, harmonized or understood. But there's holes in the current logic, the spiritual practices I am doing isn't cutting it, whatever -- it doesn't meet the needs. So the search for a new paradigm is a little more gut wrenching, heart wrenching or soul stirring, because the butterfly is bursting out of its cocoon. There's a lot of unanswered questions and a need to know.

But unlike a butterfly, the old paradigm is incorporated into the new paradigm, and the new paradigm answers a lot of questions that were niggling at me in the old paradigm. Then life is good, even when it's bad, because there is a sense of being centered and in the flow again.

Of course, for minor paradigm shifts, we just need a slight change in prescription.

And you are so right about the vacation years from your family and friends, and any sort of normal engagement with 'the world.' I used to think my mother was so wierd because she was always whining about her two daughters in the ashram, like we somehow were too distant from her. It was sort of wistful, plaintive and ANNOYING. But she, as a mother, understood the major rejection of family and friends, and the layer of padding that was there between any closeness with family. I told her that a few weeks ago. It was a monument to a mother's perception. We were not quite tuning her out, but we were tuning her distant. It's the reason why so many people were deprogrammed. The families could see that the distance was caused by the cult and they either freaked or the premie tuned them out too much or too fast for it not to be a major shift.

The one vacation that was good for me was from romantic liasons and relationships. I needed the emotional break. Unfortunately for some, in the bloom of their youth, and too gripped by the clutches of the cult to move on, there was a lot of 'puberty and post-puberty lost' going on. A lot of anguish (love lost, guru lost), a lot of fear (the ashram was sold as the real way), etc.

I can't really say credit where credit is due where M or the ashram is concerned. There are good aspects to everything, because humans have wonderful things about them as well as bad things about them, and they can learn and grow from any situation, no matter how wierd. And we can come together and make something good out of it, with the goodness that naturally comes from within ourselves and all around us. However, dedicating my life to a fat Indian fraud disguised as the essence of Holy Name, the breath I breathe, my Creator, the Lord, the truth, is a sick, sick concept.

Love --f

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Date: Fri, Mar 30, 2001 at 17:53:23 (GMT)
From: Gregg
Email: binduesque@yahoo.com
To: Wildflower
Subject: Life and Growth Beyond M
Message:
Hi W. There has been a lot of talk over the years on this forum about spiritual practices. A surprising (OK, maybe not surprising) number of exes are involved with meditation, many similar to yours, it sounds like.

With all the important stuff about M coming out these days on the Forum, though, this might not be the best time for this kind of discussion.

Please e-mail me...I'd be happy to talk about it with you!

Gregg

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Date: Sat, Mar 31, 2001 at 22:27:03 (GMT)
From: Helen
Email: None
To: Gregg/all
Subject: Life and Growth Beyond M
Message:
I agree with Babs that practice helps one get through life's changes and I agree with Pat that a clear conscience is the best way to inner peace.

These days I meditate on being part of humanity. That's the whole enchilada for me. I love that quote from the rabbi (rabbi Hillel???) that the essence of Judaism is to treat others as one would like to be treated and that everything else is commentary. This is the biggest lesson I learned from going to hell and back with the guru trip. It's a good lesson to have learned and I am glad I learned something. It seems to be the common ground of why we ex-premies are so attracted to one another, because we have realized how precious our humanity is and how we almost lost it for a fraudulent spiritual guide who himself has no humanity. So we find it one another and rejoice.
Peace to all--
Helen

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Date: Sun, Apr 01, 2001 at 19:50:36 (GMT)
From: Francesca
Email: None
To: Helen
Subject: Love you Helen! Great post.
Message:
I had to tell my hubby about those sentiments because they were inspiring to me this AM.
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Date: Sun, Apr 01, 2001 at 18:28:52 (GMT)
From: And On Anand Ji
Email: and_on_anand@yahoo.com
To: Helen
Subject: Nice post, Helen (nnt)
Message:
I agree with Pat that a clear conscience is the best way to inner peace.

[nnt == no new text]

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