Forum V: Archive
Compiled: Thurs, Apr 12, 2001 at 23:29:13 (GMT)
From: Mar 31, 2001 To: Apr 11, 2001 Page: 5 Of: 5


Archie McDonald -:- Time to move on -:- Mon, Apr 02, 2001 at 11:04:42 (GMT)
__ Mercedes -:- Time to move on -:- Thurs, Apr 05, 2001 at 05:10:19 (GMT)
__ Jethro -:- Hi Archie, nice to see you again -:- Tues, Apr 03, 2001 at 18:05:18 (GMT)
__ Bryn -:- Time to move on -:- Tues, Apr 03, 2001 at 11:34:58 (GMT)
__ Gary Epton -:- Time to move on -:- Tues, Apr 03, 2001 at 02:26:16 (GMT)
__ Tony(Aussi Ji) -:- Time to move on -:- Mon, Apr 02, 2001 at 20:53:20 (GMT)
__ Bin Liner -:- Hello Archie. It's a mind fuck , but what the ... -:- Mon, Apr 02, 2001 at 20:42:28 (GMT)
__ Pat Conlon -:- Thanks, Archie -:- Mon, Apr 02, 2001 at 17:23:59 (GMT)
__ Susan -:- good to hear from you Archie (nt) -:- Mon, Apr 02, 2001 at 17:09:43 (GMT)
__ Katie H. -:- Thanks for your post, Archie -:- Mon, Apr 02, 2001 at 11:10:05 (GMT)
__ __ janet -:- tell others what you're thinking.break the silence -:- Mon, Apr 02, 2001 at 12:39:50 (GMT)
__ __ __ Marianne -:- Congratulations and welcome -:- Mon, Apr 02, 2001 at 13:01:36 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Richard -:- Congratulations and welcome Archie! -:- Mon, Apr 02, 2001 at 17:19:39 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Richard -:- BTW: Archie mentioned 'Jim Conlon' OT -:- Mon, Apr 02, 2001 at 17:23:45 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Pat Conlon -:- We've been trying to keep it secret from Laurie NT -:- Mon, Apr 02, 2001 at 21:06:04 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ a0aji -:- So hung. Curl your tung. Squeeze ur eyeballs.. -:- Mon, Apr 02, 2001 at 17:46:07 (GMT)

Jim -:- Hey relax, premie-ji. The enemy's within -:- Mon, Apr 02, 2001 at 06:34:28 (GMT)
__ Lurker #27 -:- Hey relax, premie-ji. The enemy's within -:- Mon, Apr 02, 2001 at 21:12:10 (GMT)
__ __ Sir Dave -:- Everybody IS conscious!!! -:- Tues, Apr 03, 2001 at 00:33:23 (GMT)
__ __ __ Lurker #27 -:- Everybody IS conscious!!! -:- Tues, Apr 03, 2001 at 13:36:13 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Jerry -:- Everybody IS conscious!!! -:- Tues, Apr 03, 2001 at 18:03:47 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Lurker #27 -:- Everybody IS conscious??? -:- Tues, Apr 03, 2001 at 18:32:02 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Jerry -:- Everybody IS conscious??? -:- Tues, Apr 03, 2001 at 20:33:25 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ G -:- Definitions of conscious -:- Tues, Apr 03, 2001 at 23:42:30 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Jerry -:- Hey, we're on the same page! -:- Tues, Apr 03, 2001 at 23:58:29 (GMT)
__ Cynthia -:- Yeah, I saw that one today, too... -:- Mon, Apr 02, 2001 at 17:10:02 (GMT)
__ Jerry -:- Hey relax, premie-ji. The enemy's within -:- Mon, Apr 02, 2001 at 10:56:43 (GMT)
__ Pat Conlon -:- Rev Rawat - the maestro of unconsciousness -:- Mon, Apr 02, 2001 at 07:51:36 (GMT)
__ __ Jim -:- Great post, Pat (nt) -:- Mon, Apr 02, 2001 at 16:12:28 (GMT)
__ __ __ Pat Conlon -:- Thanks Jim and PS: The ''evolution'' of M and K -:- Tues, Apr 03, 2001 at 01:50:45 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ grandpa -:- Thanks Jim and PS: The ''evolution'' of M and K -:- Wed, Apr 04, 2001 at 09:02:06 (GMT)
__ __ bill -:- The magazine reaction people that come here -:- Mon, Apr 02, 2001 at 12:49:15 (GMT)

NorthWestie -:- Instructor Ira Wods on tour -:- Mon, Apr 02, 2001 at 05:07:19 (GMT)
__ jondon -:- Instructor Yvette -:- Tues, Apr 03, 2001 at 14:19:05 (GMT)
__ __ Francesca -:- Was that Yvette Korell? -:- Tues, Apr 03, 2001 at 21:02:02 (GMT)
__ Jim Sander -:- Instructor Ira Wods on tour/My talk with Ira -:- Mon, Apr 02, 2001 at 11:00:46 (GMT)
__ __ Turner -:- Lest we forget. -:- Tues, Apr 03, 2001 at 00:00:30 (GMT)
__ __ __ Marianne -:- Turner: M need not be socially responsible -:- Tues, Apr 03, 2001 at 07:29:34 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Turner -:- Turner: M need not be socially responsible -:- Tues, Apr 03, 2001 at 21:58:20 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Marianne -:- Please keep posting, Turner -:- Wed, Apr 04, 2001 at 09:48:37 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Turner -:- Please keep posting, Turner -:- Wed, Apr 04, 2001 at 16:00:05 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Pat Conlon -:- M not socially responsible- good post, Marianne NT -:- Tues, Apr 03, 2001 at 17:46:42 (GMT)
__ __ __ Jim -:- Lest we don't think about this clearly -:- Tues, Apr 03, 2001 at 01:29:46 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Turner -:- Lest we don't think about this clearly -:- Tues, Apr 03, 2001 at 23:22:28 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Jim -:- Okay, Turner, let's talk in another year or so -:- Wed, Apr 04, 2001 at 05:35:24 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Turner -:- Okay, let's... -:- Wed, Apr 04, 2001 at 16:20:10 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ simlesby -:- Lest we don't think about this clearly -:- Wed, Apr 04, 2001 at 01:18:29 (GMT)
__ __ __ Roger eDrek -:- Lest we forget the past -:- Tues, Apr 03, 2001 at 00:36:10 (GMT)
__ __ __ JHB -:- Lest we forget. -:- Tues, Apr 03, 2001 at 00:12:21 (GMT)
__ __ Pat Conlon -:- Good analysis, Jim S - the premie blind spot NT -:- Mon, Apr 02, 2001 at 17:31:58 (GMT)
__ Francesca -:- Oh no, Phil is still a church lady. sigh. -:- Mon, Apr 02, 2001 at 05:55:30 (GMT)
__ __ Pat Conlon -:- Where's Joe? See, Stoiber's still a church-lady! -:- Mon, Apr 02, 2001 at 08:02:59 (GMT)
__ __ __ Joe -:- I've been away, but that's not nice, Pat -:- Mon, Apr 02, 2001 at 16:56:09 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Pat Conlon -:- Joe, point taken and slap accepted NT -:- Mon, Apr 02, 2001 at 17:35:11 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Joe -:- That's okay, Pat. -:- Mon, Apr 02, 2001 at 20:27:33 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Pat Conlon -:- Joe, I was been smart-alecky and dumb -:- Mon, Apr 02, 2001 at 21:34:32 (GMT)
__ __ __ Mercedes -:- Phil -:- Mon, Apr 02, 2001 at 15:04:18 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Francesca -:- Would you convey my best wishes to Phil -:- Mon, Apr 02, 2001 at 22:08:30 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Mercedes -:- Would you convey my best wishes to Phil -:- Tues, Apr 03, 2001 at 04:23:44 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Agent 007 -:- Phil is ok by me -:- Mon, Apr 02, 2001 at 21:23:12 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Agent 007 -:- Mercedes, are you from Seattle? -:- Mon, Apr 02, 2001 at 21:21:59 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Joy -:- Phil (ot) -:- Mon, Apr 02, 2001 at 16:37:21 (GMT)

Mercedes -:- ruthless, cunning...service??? -:- Mon, Apr 02, 2001 at 01:25:51 (GMT)
__ Jean-Michel -:- Translators' trappings -:- Mon, Apr 02, 2001 at 16:53:00 (GMT)
__ __ Katie Darling -:- But Jean-Michel, you don't understand! -:- Tues, Apr 03, 2001 at 10:21:48 (GMT)
__ __ __ Jean-Michel -:- Elisa upgraded to instructorship -:- Tues, Apr 03, 2001 at 16:19:59 (GMT)
__ Roy -:- Which premies are dearest to the hamster?? nt -:- Mon, Apr 02, 2001 at 04:22:03 (GMT)
__ Pat Conlon -:- Grace race worse than rat race - yuck! NT -:- Mon, Apr 02, 2001 at 04:07:27 (GMT)

Dermot -:- URGENT..Dettmers/Anth........is 'Raja Ji '... -:- Sun, Apr 01, 2001 at 19:37:49 (GMT)
__ AJW -:- URGENT..Dettmers/Anth........is 'Raja Ji '... -:- Mon, Apr 02, 2001 at 09:01:10 (GMT)
__ bill -:- Maybe you misread Dettmers post?..nt -:- Sun, Apr 01, 2001 at 22:18:21 (GMT)
__ Jim -:- URGENT..Dettmers/Anth........is 'Raja Ji '... -:- Sun, Apr 01, 2001 at 20:05:14 (GMT)
__ __ a0aji -:- Nice post, Jim. nnt -:- Mon, Apr 02, 2001 at 03:58:30 (GMT)
__ __ janet -:- is 'Raja Ji'off limits now?...hell no! -:- Mon, Apr 02, 2001 at 00:25:28 (GMT)
__ __ __ BBB -:- is 'Raja Ji'off limits now?...(a small aside) -:- Mon, Apr 02, 2001 at 01:37:07 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Connie -:- is 'Raja Ji'off limits now?...(a small aside) -:- Mon, Apr 02, 2001 at 08:02:32 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Connie -:- above post, no reference to M. Dettmers intended -:- Mon, Apr 02, 2001 at 08:43:35 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Pat Conlon -:- Connie, the new non-cult PAMs are different -:- Mon, Apr 02, 2001 at 08:51:48 (GMT)
__ __ __ Selene -:- he always seemed kind of lost to me -:- Mon, Apr 02, 2001 at 00:29:51 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Gary -:- my impression too. nt -:- Tues, Apr 03, 2001 at 01:18:25 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ janet -:- well, ya never know. people can discover -:- Mon, Apr 02, 2001 at 00:46:36 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Selene -:- that I know -:- Mon, Apr 02, 2001 at 00:56:58 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ janet -:- i thought about those days. He was 18 then.and be -:- Mon, Apr 02, 2001 at 02:44:28 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Pat Conlon -:- Who's next guru? My money's on a bitch fight -:- Mon, Apr 02, 2001 at 08:24:52 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Selene -:- It won't matter -:- Tues, Apr 03, 2001 at 00:04:01 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ janet -:- you fags just love bitchfights, is all. -:- Mon, Apr 02, 2001 at 08:46:25 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Pat Conlon -:- But straight guys love mud-wrestling dykes -:- Mon, Apr 02, 2001 at 08:58:24 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ janet -:- astrologically, wadi isnt the likely one. -:- Mon, Apr 02, 2001 at 09:45:51 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Pat the Astrology Fag -:- astrologically, wadi isnt the likely one. I agree -:- Mon, Apr 02, 2001 at 10:29:12 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ janet -:- astrologically, isnt Amar a sag-cap cusp? -:- Mon, Apr 02, 2001 at 14:06:02 (GMT)
__ Francesca -:- Bye Dermot, hope you come back soon! n/t -:- Sun, Apr 01, 2001 at 19:46:25 (GMT)

Pat Conlon -:- Bye, I'm going back to Maharaji -:- Sun, Apr 01, 2001 at 18:26:30 (GMT)
__ janet -:- interesting typo, there, pat:'suck a gift' -:- Mon, Apr 02, 2001 at 00:35:38 (GMT)
__ __ Pat Conlon -:- Holy Cow, Janet! -:- Mon, Apr 02, 2001 at 03:56:26 (GMT)
__ Roger eDrek -:- Me too. I can't stand this shit anymore -:- Sun, Apr 01, 2001 at 20:58:38 (GMT)
__ __ Gregg -:- I know you guys were just April Fooling, but... -:- Sun, Apr 01, 2001 at 23:53:56 (GMT)
__ __ __ Selene -:- hey I never left his Lotus Feetsies -:- Sun, Apr 01, 2001 at 23:56:37 (GMT)
__ __ Pat the Fat Fag -:- Any room in your ashram for Pauline Premie -:- Sun, Apr 01, 2001 at 23:14:12 (GMT)
__ Tony(Aussi Ji) -:- I was waiting for it Pat,you cunny funt.LOL.ha ha. -:- Sun, Apr 01, 2001 at 20:55:32 (GMT)
__ __ Pat Conlon -:- Really did get K April Fool's Day 1973 NT -:- Sun, Apr 01, 2001 at 23:12:19 (GMT)
__ __ __ Richard -:- I got married on 4.1.84 -:- Mon, Apr 02, 2001 at 02:54:28 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Pat Conlon -:- Happy anniversary to the two of you -:- Mon, Apr 02, 2001 at 03:58:29 (GMT)
__ __ __ Selene -:- that should have told you something huh? -:- Sun, Apr 01, 2001 at 23:54:38 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Pat Conlon -:- that should have told you something huh? It did -:- Mon, Apr 02, 2001 at 00:38:22 (GMT)
__ aoaji -:- Bye, I'm going back to Maharaji -:- Sun, Apr 01, 2001 at 18:46:49 (GMT)
__ __ Cynthia -:- Hey, aoaji, nice to see you!! n/t -:- Sun, Apr 01, 2001 at 22:05:01 (GMT)
__ __ __ aoaji -:- You too! -:- Mon, Apr 02, 2001 at 03:38:50 (GMT)
__ __ JohnT -:- Bye, I'm going for a while -:- Sun, Apr 01, 2001 at 20:26:37 (GMT)
__ __ __ aoaji -:- Bye, I'm going for a while -:- Mon, Apr 02, 2001 at 04:43:55 (GMT)
__ __ __ janet -:- the origin of April Fool's day... -:- Mon, Apr 02, 2001 at 01:17:04 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Pat Conlon -:- Well, happy April Fish to you too...........NT -:- Mon, Apr 02, 2001 at 04:01:14 (GMT)

Gary Epton -:- M -:- Sun, Apr 01, 2001 at 17:26:37 (GMT)
__ Robert Setton -:- M -:- Mon, Apr 02, 2001 at 08:40:08 (GMT)
__ __ Brian -:- Peace Dud -:- Mon, Apr 02, 2001 at 16:53:47 (GMT)
__ Francesca -:- I can't relate -:- Mon, Apr 02, 2001 at 06:07:07 (GMT)
__ __ Gary Epton -:- I can't relate -:- Mon, Apr 02, 2001 at 20:46:31 (GMT)
__ __ __ Katie H -:- Good question - maybe a new thread -:- Wed, Apr 04, 2001 at 12:35:33 (GMT)
__ __ __ Francesca -:- I have people I love dearly -:- Mon, Apr 02, 2001 at 22:14:33 (GMT)
__ __ Joe -:- My sentiments exactly. -:- Mon, Apr 02, 2001 at 20:21:50 (GMT)
__ __ Pat Conlon -:- The spell was broken, and the smell began. Fab! NT -:- Mon, Apr 02, 2001 at 08:29:55 (GMT)
__ Cynthia -:- The M persona.... -:- Sun, Apr 01, 2001 at 22:20:08 (GMT)
__ __ Pat Conlon -:- I always fell asleep during Rawat's rants -:- Sun, Apr 01, 2001 at 23:17:04 (GMT)
__ Bin Liner -:- Since he got modern , he's often reminded me of -:- Sun, Apr 01, 2001 at 20:21:39 (GMT)
__ Kelly -:- M's stage persona. -:- Sun, Apr 01, 2001 at 19:45:21 (GMT)
__ __ Bin Liner -:- Snap ! Hope you're well (nt) -:- Sun, Apr 01, 2001 at 20:25:50 (GMT)
__ Roy -:- M -:- Sun, Apr 01, 2001 at 18:22:56 (GMT)
__ __ janet -:- anyone want an astrological take on this? -:- Mon, Apr 02, 2001 at 03:54:47 (GMT)
__ __ __ Hal -:- Thanks janet- -:- Tues, Apr 03, 2001 at 08:04:24 (GMT)
__ __ __ Jim -:- No, thanks. Astrology's bullshit (nt) -:- Mon, Apr 02, 2001 at 15:28:20 (GMT)
__ __ __ Pat the Astrology Fag -:- thanks Janet. My chart was wrong - I had Moontits -:- Mon, Apr 02, 2001 at 10:16:08 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Jim -:- Come on, guys. Astrology is bunk -:- Mon, Apr 02, 2001 at 15:40:48 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Mark -:- Come on, guys. Astrology is bunk -:- Mon, Apr 02, 2001 at 20:37:16 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Jim -:- Carl Jung? Sorry, not impressed at all -:- Mon, Apr 02, 2001 at 23:53:54 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Pat Conlon -:- Yes, Jim, Astrology is bunk. Slap accepted -:- Mon, Apr 02, 2001 at 17:45:10 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Cynthia -:- Fun Bunk, though... -:- Mon, Apr 02, 2001 at 16:44:55 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ cq -:- and Jim wouldn't want to limit our FOS would he? -:- Mon, Apr 02, 2001 at 20:02:13 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Jim -:- You and your FOS -:- Mon, Apr 02, 2001 at 23:55:42 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ janet -:- well my latest working theory is... -:- Wed, Apr 04, 2001 at 01:56:59 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Jim -:- well my latest working theory is...ridiculous -:- Wed, Apr 04, 2001 at 05:27:20 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ cq -:- now when have I ever told you to shut up, Jim? nt -:- Tues, Apr 03, 2001 at 17:36:48 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Jim -:- So when did you stop hitting your wife, Chris? -:- Wed, Apr 04, 2001 at 05:31:51 (GMT)

G -:- New Indian DUO site. -:- Sun, Apr 01, 2001 at 17:02:01 (GMT)
__ Gary Epton -:- New Indian DUO site. -:- Sun, Apr 01, 2001 at 21:51:38 (GMT)
__ __ Voyeur -:- New Indian DUO site. -:- Sun, Apr 01, 2001 at 23:30:58 (GMT)
__ __ __ Gary Epton -:- New Indian DUO site. -:- Mon, Apr 02, 2001 at 01:54:26 (GMT)
__ Alan Fenstermacher -:- New Indian DUO site. -:- Sun, Apr 01, 2001 at 18:10:31 (GMT)
__ __ Bin Liner -:- English is the lingua franca of educated India (nt -:- Sun, Apr 01, 2001 at 23:06:08 (GMT)
__ Salam -:- New Indian DUO site. -:- Sun, Apr 01, 2001 at 17:34:59 (GMT)
__ __ janet -:- try the 'anout india' section for truly -:- Mon, Apr 02, 2001 at 04:23:13 (GMT)
__ __ __ G -:- they don't focus on the basics -:- Mon, Apr 02, 2001 at 11:46:09 (GMT)
__ __ G -:- Amaroo update -:- Sun, Apr 01, 2001 at 22:59:38 (GMT)
__ __ __ Jean-Michel -:- Jeep Nominees etc -:- Mon, Apr 02, 2001 at 15:52:16 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ G -:- Jeep Nominees etc -:- Mon, Apr 02, 2001 at 17:30:10 (GMT)

Wildflower -:- Denial is not a river in Egypt -:- Sat, Mar 31, 2001 at 22:37:36 (GMT)
__ AJW -:- And you can't make lingerie out of my ears. -:- Sun, Apr 01, 2001 at 11:57:26 (GMT)
__ Brian Smith -:- Right on target Wildflower! -:- Sun, Apr 01, 2001 at 10:10:48 (GMT)
__ Pat Conlon -:- Great post, Wildflower -:- Sun, Apr 01, 2001 at 05:50:16 (GMT)
__ __ Wildflower -:- Great post, Wildflower -:- Mon, Apr 02, 2001 at 13:45:38 (GMT)
__ janet -:- b4 i read other's posts back 2 u... -:- Sun, Apr 01, 2001 at 05:49:12 (GMT)
__ Gary Epton -:- Denial is not a river in Egypt -:- Sun, Apr 01, 2001 at 03:14:05 (GMT)
__ Helen -:- Denial is not a river in Egypt -:- Sun, Apr 01, 2001 at 02:26:28 (GMT)
__ Francesca -:- Good cut to the chase! -:- Sun, Apr 01, 2001 at 01:37:59 (GMT)
__ gerry -:- I like this post... -:- Sat, Mar 31, 2001 at 22:51:08 (GMT)
__ __ Roy -:- thanks for pointing out the obvious ...nt -:- Sun, Apr 01, 2001 at 01:03:42 (GMT)
__ __ Jerry -:- Me too (nt) -:- Sat, Mar 31, 2001 at 23:46:35 (GMT)


Date: Mon, Apr 02, 2001 at 11:04:42 (GMT)
From: Archie McDonald
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: Time to move on
Message:
I have been involved with K and M to a greater or lesser degree for 29 years. Up until 3 weeks ago I was just about to be called to help and do a set up for a knowledge review for new premies at a local event where I live. I have read the EPO in great detail over the past weeks. What I have read here is a catalyst to alot of the doubts I have been having for a very long time but (Never leave room for doubts in your mind ect)pushed them into the background. I have cancelled my standing order to EV and my participation in above mentioned review. Like Jim Conlon I want some answers for all those years. WHAT THE HELL HAS BEEN (IS) GOING ON NOT KNOWN BY THE MAJORITY, because they just don`t see behind the screen of secrecy that surrounds Maharaji.

Time to move on. Chains are falling off. Don`t feel freaked just a mixture of relief, anger, disillusionment and happy.


Thanks to all the people that have had the courage to post here.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Thurs, Apr 05, 2001 at 05:10:19 (GMT)
From: Mercedes
Email: None
To: Archie McDonald
Subject: Time to move on
Message:
Hi Archie, it was a good decision. Sometimes it gets rough for me and I know walking out was the right thing non the less.
Mercedes
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Tues, Apr 03, 2001 at 18:05:18 (GMT)
From: Jethro
Email: None
To: Archie McDonald
Subject: Hi Archie, nice to see you again
Message:
You know me by my former name(if you remember me that is), Eddie
Fisher.
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Tues, Apr 03, 2001 at 11:34:58 (GMT)
From: Bryn
Email: Bryndaviesesq@hotmail.com
To: Archie McDonald
Subject: Time to move on
Message:
29 years is a long time Archie. How many hours under the blanket is that? How many silent affirmations about yourself and the Master? 29 years is long enough to completely transform your body-mind relationship. Your perceptual/conceptual life has been completely wired one way. It is no mean feat to disentangle that lot.

I speak as a 26 year man, and I only mention the above for positive reasons. There is much to be discovered I think and good luck on the next stage of the journey of a thousand miles that begins with one step.

love Bryn

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Tues, Apr 03, 2001 at 02:26:16 (GMT)
From: Gary Epton
Email: epton@magma.ca
To: Archie McDonald
Subject: Time to move on
Message:
Hi Archie.

Glad to hear that with the information provided here that you are making a principled stand against further participation in the guru biz. I'm new to forum V as well, but like yourself could not ignore revelations regarding m - confirming his uncaring, cavalier attitude towards those that sincerely listened to and responded to his directives. The revelations regarding m have gone well beyond my wildest suspicions and therefore left me little choice but to begin the process of exorcising him from my consciousness. The irreverence found here and at Roger's House of Drek is oddly liberating don't you think?

Gary

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Mon, Apr 02, 2001 at 20:53:20 (GMT)
From: Tony(Aussi Ji)
Email: parisw@ozemail.com.au
To: Archie McDonald
Subject: Time to move on
Message:
G'day Archie,
This is PRECISELY how I felt six months ago.For me it was a great relief,NO make that a huge relief to know I could take back the reigns of my life again.Guess what?Archie,it just keeps getting better from here on in.Six months down the track,I feel better almost on a daily basis.
My warmest regards to you mate.Enjoy your newfound freedom.

Cheers Tony.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Mon, Apr 02, 2001 at 20:42:28 (GMT)
From: Bin Liner
Email: None
To: Archie McDonald
Subject: Hello Archie. It's a mind fuck , but what the ...
Message:
...hell.

Better out than in .

As this business slowly unravels , the people I feel sorry for are those who refuse to believe the evidence .

All the best: Pat Dorrity

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Mon, Apr 02, 2001 at 17:23:59 (GMT)
From: Pat Conlon
Email: None
To: Archie McDonald
Subject: Thanks, Archie
Message:
Now watch yourself get happy real fast. Nothing beats the feeling of relief at not having to send hard-earned money that is not used for what you thought it was being used. Thanks for posting.
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Mon, Apr 02, 2001 at 17:09:43 (GMT)
From: Susan
Email: None
To: Archie McDonald
Subject: good to hear from you Archie (nt)
Message:
nt
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Mon, Apr 02, 2001 at 11:10:05 (GMT)
From: Katie H.
Email: None
To: Archie McDonald
Subject: Thanks for your post, Archie
Message:
I must admit that I opened it with a bit of dread, since several people a month post telling the people on this forum to 'move on' with their lives and not post on here. Your post was a nice surprise - and I was happy to hear it. Congratulations on breaking free.

Twenty-nine years is a long time. Hope you'll keep posting here if you have more to say.

Take care,
Katie H.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Mon, Apr 02, 2001 at 12:39:50 (GMT)
From: janet
Email: None
To: Archie McDonald
Subject: tell others what you're thinking.break the silence
Message:
i can feel your chains falling off from all the way over here in L A.
stretch, wander, breathe, look around, take off.
being cramped in that tiger cage for 29 years leaves one rather stiff, huh?
take all the time you need to recover yourself. unwind carefully. get to know the world all over again with new eyes
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Mon, Apr 02, 2001 at 13:01:36 (GMT)
From: Marianne
Email: delores@gofree.indigo.ie
To: Archie
Subject: Congratulations and welcome
Message:
Hi Archie. Congratulations on getting free of the cult. Thank you for telling us about it too. It is heartening to those of us who post here that our message is being heard.

It appears you have posted with your real name. Could you tell us where you live and what information specifically was most important for you to learn from the site and the forum?

I look forward to hearing more from you.

Marianne

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Mon, Apr 02, 2001 at 17:19:39 (GMT)
From: Richard
Email: None
To: Marianne
Subject: Congratulations and welcome Archie!
Message:
As a former teacher (not M) said 'Tell the truth faster and have more fun per hour'!
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Mon, Apr 02, 2001 at 17:23:45 (GMT)
From: Richard
Email: enquire@mind.com
To: all
Subject: BTW: Archie mentioned 'Jim Conlon' OT
Message:
Pat Conlon, Jim do you want to make an announcement? How sweet.
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Mon, Apr 02, 2001 at 21:06:04 (GMT)
From: Pat Conlon
Email: None
To: Richard
Subject: We've been trying to keep it secret from Laurie NT
Message:
k
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Mon, Apr 02, 2001 at 17:46:07 (GMT)
From: a0aji
Email: None
To: satnam night live
Subject: So hung. Curl your tung. Squeeze ur eyeballs..
Message:
and push with your thumbs.
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Mon, Apr 02, 2001 at 06:34:28 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: Hey relax, premie-ji. The enemy's within
Message:

The adversary is unconsciousness

Edited excerpt, Maharaji in Durban, 13th October 2000

There is an ocean of sorrow, but there is an ocean of joy. It takes a little effort to make your way to the ocean of joy. Unconsciousness will take you to sorrow. Consciousness will take you to joy. In unconsciousness, you will lose the day. In consciousness, you will save the day. In unconsciousness, the breath will come and it will go, and you will not know. In consciousness, the breath will come, you will know, and you will be filled. Hey. Even a card player figures out which card he should put down and which one should he keep in order to win a hand. If he starts putting cards down randomly, he's probably bound to lose. Even a chess player knows which move to make, what complications it will create and which will be the benefits. You're a player, too, because there is an adversary. And the adversary is nothing more than unconsciousness.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Mon, Apr 02, 2001 at 21:12:10 (GMT)
From: Lurker #27
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Hey relax, premie-ji. The enemy's within
Message:
I assume this is sarcasm, and what you really mean is that the enemy is without. And yes, I couldn't agree more. M is the enemy!

And if M is toppled from power, life will be fantastic! Everyone, absolutely everyone on the planet will be conscious - and there will be no more pain, fear, and suffering. It will be paradise.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Tues, Apr 03, 2001 at 00:33:23 (GMT)
From: Sir Dave
Email: None
To: Lurker #27
Subject: Everybody IS conscious!!!
Message:
Unless they're under anasthetic, in deep sleep or brain damaged. Once again, Maharaji has shown his ineptitude with the English language.
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Tues, Apr 03, 2001 at 13:36:13 (GMT)
From: Lurker #27
Email: None
To: Sir Dave
Subject: Everybody IS conscious!!!
Message:
Everybody IS conscious!!! Unless they are drunk, in a rage, depressed, under hypnosis, drugged, in a state of fear, jealousy, the list goes on and on.
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Tues, Apr 03, 2001 at 18:03:47 (GMT)
From: Jerry
Email: None
To: Lurker #27
Subject: Everybody IS conscious!!!
Message:
Listen, #27, neither you nor Maharaji understands the meaning of consciousness, nor the mystical trappings attached to it. Consciousness has nothing to do with state of mind. It is merely the observer of all things. Understand? How do you suppose people are aware if they're happy or sad, enraged or at peace? Through their consciousness. Capiche?

It's talk like this that shows me that Maharaji hasn't got the foggiest notion of what the mystics speak about when discussing consciousness. And these are the mystics of his own heritage. In the west, consciousness was always taken for granted, never given the spiritual significance it's been given in the east, until recently, since eastern philosophy has crossed our borders.

But, Christ, you'd think that Maharaji would at least know something along these lines, would have some understanding of consciousness' significance as studied by the eastern mind. He doesn't know squat. And because you're his student, Lurker #27, neither do you.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Tues, Apr 03, 2001 at 18:32:02 (GMT)
From: Lurker #27
Email: None
To: Jerry
Subject: Everybody IS conscious???
Message:
Jerry have you ever had a hangover?
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Tues, Apr 03, 2001 at 20:33:25 (GMT)
From: Jerry
Email: None
To: Lurker #27
Subject: Everybody IS conscious???
Message:
Yeah, I've had plenty of hangovers. I wasn't unconscious while having them. In fact I was all TOO conscious of them. I would have rather been unconscious, that's how much hangovers suck.

You're making a classic mistake in defining consciousness. You're associating it with a very specific state of mind. You think that unless you're experiencing a blissful state, you're unconscious. That's not so. Consciousness is just awareness, moment by moment, of whatever your life's experience is, happy or sad, drunk or sober, hungover even.

Or think of it like this. As Einstein said, 'Nothing is so difficult to discern as that which is right under our nose.' If consciousness isn't what's right under our nose, I don't know what is, and judging from the amount of people who think like you do, I'd say for some strange reason, that's very difficult to discern.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Tues, Apr 03, 2001 at 23:42:30 (GMT)
From: G
Email: None
To: Lurker #27
Subject: Definitions of conscious
Message:
How do you get 'aware of one's breath' or 'not in a rage' from one of the dictionary definitions shown below. Which of these definitions do you think he's using? Which one are you using?

From an online dictionary entry for conscious:

conscious
adj.

Having an awareness of one's environment and one's own existence, sensations, and thoughts. See Synonyms at aware.

Mentally perceptive or alert; awake: The patient remained fully conscious after the local anesthetic was administered.

Capable of thought, will, or perception: The development of conscious life on the planet.

Subjectively known or felt: conscious remorse.

Intentionally conceived or done; deliberate: a conscious insult; made a conscious effort to speak more clearly.

Inwardly attentive or sensible; mindful: was increasingly conscious of being stared at on the street.

Especially aware of or preoccupied with. Often used in combination: a cost-conscious approach to further development; a health-conscious diet.

n.

In psychoanalysis, the component of waking awareness perceptible by a person at any given instant; consciousness.

[From Latin conscius: com-, com- + scire, to know; see skei- in Indo-European Roots.]

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Tues, Apr 03, 2001 at 23:58:29 (GMT)
From: Jerry
Email: None
To: G
Subject: Hey, we're on the same page!
Message:
G,

When I first saw your name under mine, I thought, 'Oh, boy, here we go again', but then I saw you were addressing yourself to #27. I agree with your assessment of consciousness (in this regard) and apparently so does the dictionary. Maybe it will sink in with the Lurker, or maybe even M if he's reading as has been rumored.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Mon, Apr 02, 2001 at 17:10:02 (GMT)
From: Cynthia
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Yeah, I saw that one today, too...
Message:
But the main point that glared out at me was the bit about the ''Adversary.''

So I guess we should rename this site ''Adversaries R Us.''

Unconsciousness? A few cognacs will make him unconscious.

He's not a very good spin doctor, he's too transparent, IMO.

Cynth

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Mon, Apr 02, 2001 at 10:56:43 (GMT)
From: Jerry
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Hey relax, premie-ji. The enemy's within
Message:
So when you're unconscious you feel sorrow. I wonder what Maharaji thnks is required to feel anything, sorrow or joy. Perhaps...

consciousness?

I always thought unconsciousness meant oblivion, where you felt or knew nothing at all, not dark nor light, pain nor sorrow. But what do I know? I'm not the Perfect Master. I've got no such license to fuck with words and their meanings as he does.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Mon, Apr 02, 2001 at 07:51:36 (GMT)
From: Pat Conlon
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Rev Rawat - the maestro of unconsciousness
Message:
I bet those poor Durban premies sat and lapped it up. Of course most of the premies in Natal/KwaZulu are Indian women who only speak Gujerati, haven't got a clue what he's saying and are just there for the darshan juju.

The translation is often done in that special Stepford Wives tone of voice where words cease to have meaning and become as soothing as a new age tape of waterfalls and mating whales. The husbands are often outside smoking cigarets and doing business.

Sounds like Rev Rawat knows all about unconsciousness. When you have an uneasy conscience and have done bad things that you are ashamed of and do not practice any sort of mental hygeine or sanity you are bound to have to take to the bottle to go to sleep at night.

(I've been there so I know all about unconsciousness. I did night shift for 7 years in a hospital pharmacy and had to take Halcion to sleep plus quite a bit of booze. It coincided with a ''dark night of the soul'' caused by watching 14 of our freinds die one after the other of AIDS in the 80s, most of whom were premies.)

Knowledge sure has been downsized. I can remember when it was the Knowledge of God (''My Knowledge is God'') and a guarantee of immortality. It went through such subtle permutations that my guru-addled brain didn't notice. Well, I always fell asleep when he spoke and I was there mostly for the shakti juju along with the Indian ladies.

Finally drips began getting through. First it was the Rev's pronouncement about 5 years ago that ''Knowledge was the closest we would ever get to immortality.'' Shit, I thought, you mean I am still never really going to be immortal? Then finally last year came the pronouncement that we could offer people ''the possibility of Knowledge.''

Poor old Rev Rawat the Fudgemeister. I don't blame him. I take full responsibilty for being a lazy ignoramus.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Mon, Apr 02, 2001 at 16:12:28 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Pat Conlon
Subject: Great post, Pat (nt)
Message:
fffffff
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Tues, Apr 03, 2001 at 01:50:45 (GMT)
From: Pat Conlon
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Thanks Jim and PS: The ''evolution'' of M and K
Message:
happened so gradually that I didn't notice it until I went back into the belly of the beast after 17 years of having nothing to do with other premies (except Chuck and Francesca and we were all exiting slowly.)

During that time the only contact I had was going to see him every couple of years if he went somewhere (like Rome) which I wanted to see and watching the videos at home which I hardly remember because they put me to sleep and I had a good excuse to take a nap.

His recorded speeches did evolve from the whisper/shout technique to his current confident smarminess. They are now delivered quite soothingly and his talks have taken on a more new age vibe and the accompanying sound-track ''music'' is often the same synthesized stuff they use for mating whales and Shirley McClain's memoirs. Soporific stuff mostly.

I forgave him all because I had made the mistake of seeing him as the source of the shakti vibe. In my mind he was the creator made flesh and he still is to most of the PWKs that I know. The industrial strength church ladies of course have learned how to fudge just as well as the Fudgemaster.

After I heard him say: ''I don't know your name and I don't want to know your name'' to those very same premies in Durban two years before your quote, I started listening more carefully.

Then he began to say things like ''if you don't like Knowledge, take a walk...it's not for everybody.'' Okay, so my savior does not want to get to know me and he doesn't give a shit whether I'm saved or not.

I got the message loud and clear - he doesn't give a damn about anything except himself and his family, just like any other ordinary everyday smug preposterously rich Malibite.

When premies who have bought into the revisionist fudge post here, I nearly always want to say to them: ''No matter what the politically correct cult-speak for M and K are nowadays, you are holding onto him as your Master because of some serious reason.''

They know that it is not just to ''enjoy life and be grateful for it.'' Most people know how to do that. Most people don't have to be reminded what a strange and wonderful gift breathing is. No, they are holding on to him because they think that he is the savior. They are fibbing and fudging and using coy words.

Well, they are welcome to a savior who doesn't want to get to know them and couldn't care less if they walk away and whose message has evolved from ''I am greater than God and I can save you'' to ''don't worry, be happy.'' This is not a kind, merciful and loving savior. It is a cold calculating selfish insouciant manipulator.

Sounds like most gods especially that well-known psychopath, Jehovah. Only peasants need gods. Slaves need saviors and beasts of burden need masters.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Wed, Apr 04, 2001 at 09:02:06 (GMT)
From: grandpa
Email: None
To: Pat Conlon
Subject: Thanks Jim and PS: The ''evolution'' of M and K
Message:
great post Pat - know what you mean
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Mon, Apr 02, 2001 at 12:49:15 (GMT)
From: bill
Email: None
To: Pat Conlon
Subject: The magazine reaction people that come here
Message:
wont need to think they were lazy and stupid and I dont think you were either.
Dont forget, those close to him who were also NOT lazy or dumb
could not easily break away even though they saw quite bit!
The programming was quite intense and when you looked around at 'the world' and other religions, it was hard not to see all the stupidity there.
As long as rawat played it confidently, and didnt let his gaurd down, what did we have to go on to bail out?
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Mon, Apr 02, 2001 at 05:07:19 (GMT)
From: NorthWestie
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: Instructor Ira Wods on tour
Message:
EVENT WITH INSTRUCTOR IRA WOODS
-------------------------------
Ira Woods, one of Maharaji's instructors is traveling and is currently in
Seattle. This Tuesday April 3 there will be an event at 8:00 PM at the
Johnson Controls Building. Ira will be giving a presentation regarding
Maharaji's recent activities, propagation, and preliminary planning for
2002 including the possibility of inviting Maharaji to Seattle. Phil
Stoiber, treasurer for PSVP, will also have a brief financial update.

(PSVP = Puget Sound Video Presentations)

What about the last time M was 'invited' to Seattle and 'accepted', then cancelled at the 11th hour so he could work on his AutoKnowledge DVD? I imagine there are a few people in Seattle and elsewhere still out some serious coinage for the lost deposits on cancelled halls, hotels, etc. Lila or Grace? You make the call.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Tues, Apr 03, 2001 at 14:19:05 (GMT)
From: jondon
Email: None
To: NorthWestie
Subject: Instructor Yvette
Message:
Yvette something was in the area this past week, discussing M's current decision to use the auto lite-K package to seduce newbies. The three hour visit included some video of M in Portland talking to aspirants. She mentioned that there was approximately 200 of them. I was told it was actually less.
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Tues, Apr 03, 2001 at 21:02:02 (GMT)
From: Francesca
Email: None
To: jondon
Subject: Was that Yvette Korell?
Message:
I knew her in LA. She was a wonderful, sweet person and a service junkie. In fact, she usually couldn't stay awake during satsang. It put her right to sleep.
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Mon, Apr 02, 2001 at 11:00:46 (GMT)
From: Jim Sander
Email: None
To: NorthWestie
Subject: Instructor Ira Wods on tour/My talk with Ira
Message:
After my first letter went out to EV, I received a call from Ira Woods.

I have always liked and respected Ira; I first ran into him in the 1972 NYC days at the 83rd St. ashram...

We had a 2 hour 'heart to heart' talk.

The first hour was really just reminiscing and talking about our lives...rather enjoyable...

At the end of the two hour talk I realized that nothing of substance was going to be talked about.
At one point Ira told me that his mind looks for things to criticize about knowledge: it looks for a way to prove that it doesn't work, but that he keeps coming back to the realization that it is perfect, and works.(or words to this effect). All the issues of the letter just didn't seem to affect him, although he did acknowledge that this stuff does affect new people...

At that point I realized that there was no hope in having a conversation with him about the essence of the letter.
We were just talking 'apples and oranges'.

He did admit that the EPO site was having a negative effect on the way people, especially aspirants, viewed M and K.

As a friend of mine noted, I wasn't going to get too far with Ira, as Ira probably has an IRA from the boss....not too likely to criticize the hand that feeds...

Basically, I saw that premies have a totally different way of evaluating or judging maharaji than new people do, or exes do,(they just stay numb about it, and don't really 'feel'it) and while it serves them well in the short term(it prevents them from leaving), it is also the reason that no one else wants to get into it...this 'refusal to see' is a double edge sword...helps keep them in, but also prevents others from entering, as they won't cut m the slack that the premies have to...

There is absolutely no room for rational or critical evaluation.
M is simply 'off the table' for discussion, as that would be seen as 'judging ones master', and that is not something that one does. After all, m doesn't judge you, right?

Oh well, it was a nice conversation, and Ira's a nice guy....

He didn't call back after the second letter, nor did Kathie Thomas, and I understand why...

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Tues, Apr 03, 2001 at 00:00:30 (GMT)
From: Turner
Email: None
To: Jim Sander
Subject: Lest we forget.
Message:
Jim, please…did I miss something? Since you became a premie many years ago has something changed? I don’t mean the people, the trappings, the evolutionary things…those are bound to change. I mean the substantial things, like where is the root of truth and untruth? When is a person truly freed? Things like, how can I truly feel complete inside? Or, how do I KNOW these things in a way that is beyond doubt? These basics surely haven’t changed.

You received K and practiced it for a number of years but what did you understand? If these questions have not been answered for you, I would say nothing! Do you think if someone can show the answers to these questions it matters a hang how they spend their free time? Why do you insist on this person fitting into your mold of social respectability? He’s not vying for your crumby acceptance, like some televangelist.

Your doubts and confusion and that of the others like you will not derail the efforts of such a person who can answer these questions. But if you choose to die on that hill, go for it. You’ll become just another obstacle that will be circumvented…I have no doubt about that. But realize that after you have, you will be left with the same unanswered set of questions as you’ve always had. The same thirst to know. The difference is you may not have the guts any more to look for the answers.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Tues, Apr 03, 2001 at 07:29:34 (GMT)
From: Marianne
Email: None
To: Turner
Subject: Turner: M need not be socially responsible
Message:
Ok Turner, I changed one of your words. You said he didn't have to be socially 'respectable'. But there's no difference in meaning between the two phrases, is there? And if there is, go ahead and describe the difference to all of us.

This comment is appalling. What you are actually telling us is that Captain Rawat's behavior does not need to conform to that of the rest of civilized society. Big mistake there, Turner. That is one of those Hindu concepts that the mahatmas spread -- only God doesn't have to behave in the same manner as the rest of us frail humans. Moreover, you have just ADMITTED his behavior is not socially respectable. Thank you for that.

Captain Rawat is now saying that he is merely a teacher of meditation. Why would be possibly be exempt from behaving like the rest of us, in a socially respectable or responsible manner? What you are really saying is that Captain Rawat did not have any responsibility for controlling Jagdeo; for controlling his own sexual, physical and emotional abuse of his followers; did not have to control his drinking binges, including physical harm done to others while under the influence of alcohol; did not have any obligation to control his unmitigated greed or desire for the trappings of obscence wealth, acquired on the backs of his followers (not from any business acumen); that he has no obligation to tell the truth about the history of the cults he has headed, etc.

Turner, I can't wait to find out your real identity. You must be known to the EV Monitors - perhaps you are one yourself. Perhaps you have a position of authority within the EV corporate structure. If your statement that Captain Rawat does not need to be socially respectable can be traced back to someone with legal authority within the cult, I'd say that the Board of Directors should be concerned about the potential fallout from such a statement.

Thank you for your very meaningful contribution to our understanding of what premies are thinking today. You really opened my eyes.

Marianne

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Tues, Apr 03, 2001 at 21:58:20 (GMT)
From: Turner
Email: None
To: Marianne
Subject: Turner: M need not be socially responsible
Message:
Ok Turner, I changed one of your words. You said he didn't have to be socially 'respectable'. But there's no difference in meaning between the two phrases, is there? And if there is, go ahead and describe the difference to all of us.

Marianne, you are a lawyer, if anyone should know the difference between the words “respectable” and “responsible” it should be you. They are not interchangeable so stop trying to baffle with bullshit. For example, one can be socially responsible and still get no respect.

What you are actually telling us is that Captain Rawat's behavior does not need to conform to that of the rest of civilized society.

“Civilized society” is different based upon the society and times. So which society and times do you hold up as the gold standard? Some Islamic societies let a man kill his wife if she’s been unfaithful to him. Our society believes in killing people whom our courts deem guilty of heinous crimes, and once on death row, if DNA becomes available that could absolve the defendant, it is not necessarily admissible. And this same society does nothing to alleviate one of its most serious causes of premature death …guns. So which civilized society are you talking about Marianne? Which one is worthy enough to define what is respectable for he, me or anyone else? I pay no homage to society Marianne, yours or any one else’s. And I pity you or anyone else if you do.

…you have just ADMITTED his behavior is not socially respectable. Thank you for that.

Marianne here’s what I said. “Why do you insist on this person fitting into your mold of social respectability?” Read, Jim Sander’s mold of social respectability. You are quite a piece of work…really!

Captain Rawat is now saying that he is merely a teacher of meditation.

Maharaji is saying he is a Master. People come to him to learn. If I come to someone to humbly learn something, whoever that person is, I give them license to teach me. If I feel uncomfortable by their methods I can leave and find someone who is more compatible with my learning style. Many thousands of people feel very comfortable with Maharaji as their teacher. The ones who don’t should just go, instead of perennially whining about it.

What you are really saying is that Captain Rawat did not have any responsibility for controlling Jagdeo;…

Are you saying he didn’t control him once he found out? What facts do you base that on? Facts Marianne…not supposition. Again, you are a lawyer. I expect you to exercise some integrity in your allegations. But then again, you are a lawyer...

…for controlling his own sexual, physical and emotional abuse of his followers;…

Who has stepped forward claiming sexual abuse? What kind of physical abuse are you talking about? Beatings? Again, who has stepped forward? Emotional abuse??? Prove it! And give us more than Oprah styled anecdotes from your disenchanted ex-premie buddies. Prove it all Marianne instead of making trumped up claims. You’ve been bullshitting us for years now. You’re a lawyer, why don’t you stop blowing wind and make something stick.

…did not have to control his drinking binges, including physical harm done to others while under the influence of alcohol;…

Last time I looked drinking alcoholic beverages is not against the law. He has never compromised his events or his flying as a result of drink, so control is clearly not an issue. And who was harmed physically? Have they stepped forward to lay charges? Do you have any victims in hand with a sound case who are willing to step forward and be heard? Just as I thought…

…did not have any obligation to control his unmitigated greed or desire for the trappings of obscence wealth, acquired on the backs of his followers (not from any business acumen);…

This is a value judgment…a subjective and biased opinion. You have no idea about his motives, nor do the two mikes for that matter. What wealth he has is not obscene, and if something was given to him, it was for the most part given out of sincere love, not on the backs of his followers. Once again Marianne, the tenor of your allegations exaggerates the facts beyond reality. You’re trying far too hard!

…that he has no obligation to tell the truth about the history of the cults he has headed, etc.

The truth. Hmmm. I presume you mean the facts here. Maharaji’s message is and always has been concerning getting to know one’s own heart. These, the relevant facts have never changed. The rest is subject to argument…for which I’m not about to waste my time haggling with you. That said, there have been bumps along the way. But why advertise it? Do you really think Firestone is going to include in its upcoming ad campaign statistics about their tires being faulty? They’ve corrected the problem and now they are moving on.

Thank you for your very meaningful contribution to our understanding of what premies are thinking today. You really opened my eyes.

Marianne, would you like to know what premies today are thinking of you? Nahh…another time.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Wed, Apr 04, 2001 at 09:48:37 (GMT)
From: Marianne
Email: None
To: Turner
Subject: Please keep posting, Turner
Message:
Your nasty little diatribes are the best advertisement against getting involved with Captain Rawat and his cult that one could possibly imagine.

Are you authorized by Captain Rawat and Elan Vital to invite lawsuits? Your post does indeed do that. I wouldn't be so cavalier about this invitation.

As for 'making something stick', a whole lot is about to 'stick' to the cult, those who run it, and Captain Rawat in the very near future. Happy reading.


Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Wed, Apr 04, 2001 at 16:00:05 (GMT)
From: Turner
Email: None
To: Marianne
Subject: Please keep posting, Turner
Message:
Diatribe? You know Marianne, the more I read the gunk you post the more I see what an unpleasant person you must be. What I wrote was certainly not a diatribe. What kind of lawyer you must be!! So full of shit.

As for making it stick, hey go for it, but I can't help but notice that you guys have been predicting the end of Maharaji for years now and you're starting to sound like these wacko doomsday cults predicting yet another date for the end of the world. Sure keep it up Marianne. You are obviously past the point of needing to retain any social shame or credibility.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Tues, Apr 03, 2001 at 17:46:42 (GMT)
From: Pat Conlon
Email: None
To: Marianne
Subject: M not socially responsible- good post, Marianne NT
Message:
k
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Tues, Apr 03, 2001 at 01:29:46 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Turner
Subject: Lest we don't think about this clearly
Message:
Jim, please…did I miss something? Since you became a premie many years ago has something changed? I don’t mean the people, the trappings, the evolutionary things…those are bound to change. I mean the substantial things, like where is the root of truth and untruth? When is a person truly freed? Things like, how can I truly feel complete inside? Or, how do I KNOW these things in a way that is beyond doubt? These basics surely haven’t changed.

First of all, some of those things can't change because they don't exist in the first place. 'The root of truth and untruth', what the hell does that mean? If you know, spell it out, because this kind of vague phraseology means nothing. 'When is a person truyl freed?' You mean from Maharaji? Freed from what? Oh, I see, freed from the mind, right? Answer: when they die. How can you truly feel complete inside? Answer: you can't. How do you know these things in a way that is beyond doubt? Answer: you can't. You're not saying anything. You might as well be writing sanskrit -- WITHOUT understanding it. Looks nice and spiritual but means nothing.

You received K and practiced it for a number of years but what did you understand?

When? In '73, '78, '88 or 2001?

If these questions have not been answered for you, I would say nothing!

Good, then shut up.

Do you think if someone can show the answers to these questions it matters a hang how they spend their free time?

Well, first you have to accept that there even ARE questions to answer. You haven't established that yet. So ... well, forget about the next step. What about it, Turner? Care to turn off the fog machine and actually say something?

Why do you insist on this person fitting into your mold of social respectability? He’s not vying for your crumby acceptance, like some televangelist.

It's called morality, cult boy. You're disgusting. Anyone outside your cult and many even within would see that.

Your doubts and confusion and that of the others like you will not derail the efforts of such a person who can answer these questions.

Well, your question assumes so much, like there actually is some special answer man. But hwatever, the point is you're talking about your cult leader. Fine. So what's the question? Could we derail his efforts? Ha! We already have, Turner! And, believe me, dude, the momentum's on this side of the fence. Very funny, though. Thanks for the laugh.

But if you choose to die on that hill, go for it. You’ll become just another obstacle that will be circumvented…I have no doubt about that. But realize that after you have, you will be left with the same unanswered set of questions as you’ve always had. The same thirst to know. The difference is you may not have the guts any more to look for the answers.

No one enjoys certainty like a cult member. To the extent that that's true, you're right. Leave the cult, leave certainty behind. Maybe one day YOU'll have the guts to step out of the shadows yourself. Until then, though, seeing as you're so courageous and all, who are you anyway?

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Tues, Apr 03, 2001 at 23:22:28 (GMT)
From: Turner
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Lest we don't think about this clearly
Message:
Could we derail his efforts? Ha! We already have, Turner! And, believe me, dude, the momentum's on this side of the fence.

Derailed…we’ll see. You are no more than a background noise running interference. And as for momentum, it’s all virtual. Like virtual reality you have very little bearing on the outcome of what’s really happening. If you had attended the recent Portland event you’d have seen just how much impact your momentum is having on him. The hall was full and he was in top form.

And Jim you really need to be a bit more open minded. There really is a truth beyond what can be conjured up with your relatively tiny intellect. No shit!

Keep up the good work dude.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Wed, Apr 04, 2001 at 05:35:24 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Turner
Subject: Okay, Turner, let's talk in another year or so
Message:
The cult's stumbling and you know it. Maharaji sure does anyway. So let's just see what happens, shall we? Maybe your 'great intellect' will end up squirming a bit pretty soon. Can't wait, myself. Until then, though, you might as well just lock yourself up in a closet and talk to yourself. You're so far out of touch with the real world any communication's impossible.
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Wed, Apr 04, 2001 at 16:20:10 (GMT)
From: Turner
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Okay, let's...
Message:
The cult is indeed stumbling and will fall...we are in agreement there Jim. And what will stand in its place will be something undeniably true. What will be the death knell for the cult will be all the people like you who've been hanging on waiting for some magical moment to happen will be forced to face the fact they've spent the last 20+ years doing little more than hero worshipping, and in that time their experience had gone about as deep as a pimple. These folks will indeed depart, but not without trying to make as much of a stink as they can. No biggie. The ones remaining will know something the others were never able to know. And they will have the pleasure of quietly ushering in people who really want to know about this life...some of whom will have stumbled upon the satellite channel while surfing late one night; some of whom will catch some streaming video on the net; some will have received a video or audio cassette from a friend or co-worker, or some new media that gets utilized.

You see Jim, there is a hunger to know the real answers out there that jerks like you have no bearing on. You are just noise Jim...a bunch of static. The sum total of your life...static. Something to be proud of big guy.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Wed, Apr 04, 2001 at 01:18:29 (GMT)
From: simlesby
Email: None
To: Turner
Subject: Lest we don't think about this clearly
Message:
Keep it coming, bro'...they 're loving it. nt
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Tues, Apr 03, 2001 at 00:36:10 (GMT)
From: Roger eDrek
Email: drek@oz.net
To: Turner
Subject: Lest we forget the past
Message:
Do you think if someone can show the answers to these questions it matters a hang how they spend their free time?

So if Maharaji ate babies for breakfast that's ok?

you will not derail the efforts of such a person who can answer these questions

Hmmm, by cracky are we talking about such a person that happens to be God? Like THE Lord of the Universe?

You’ll become just another obstacle that will be circumvented

Jim, you are a heathen, a judas. You will pay for your digression against the Lord.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Tues, Apr 03, 2001 at 00:12:21 (GMT)
From: JHB
Email: None
To: Turner
Subject: Lest we forget.
Message:
Turner,

How can you say that the questions Jim asks don't matter? And doesn't the fact that EV refuses to respond to them say a lot about Maharaji's organisation?

You appear to be morally bankrupt.

And yes, I've heard celestial music.

John.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Mon, Apr 02, 2001 at 17:31:58 (GMT)
From: Pat Conlon
Email: None
To: Jim Sander
Subject: Good analysis, Jim S - the premie blind spot NT
Message:
j
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Mon, Apr 02, 2001 at 05:55:30 (GMT)
From: Francesca
Email: None
To: NorthWestie
Subject: Oh no, Phil is still a church lady. sigh.
Message:
One of my old ashram buddies. Really nice guy, too. And I spoke with an old friend who went to see M in 1997 and found his talk inspiring, as if he was talking 'right to me.'

Depressing. And not April Fool. At least she's not sending in donations and running around the world going to programs. And I told her about EPO '-]

--f

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Mon, Apr 02, 2001 at 08:02:59 (GMT)
From: Pat Conlon
Email: None
To: Francesca
Subject: Where's Joe? See, Stoiber's still a church-lady!
Message:
Francesca, Joe told me that he had seen Phil with a brand new Log Cabin Republican type husband. You know the Uncle Tom type fags. As soon as Joe said that I remembered what it was about Phil I could never warm up to. (Sorry Phil I always thought you were a bit of a nutless wonder.)

He's a dyed in the wool church lady but I just wish he would kick the guru habit and go to MCC instead or join Dignity and become a Sister of Perpetual Indulgence. The drag's more fun than those three piece church lady suits.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Mon, Apr 02, 2001 at 16:56:09 (GMT)
From: Joe
Email: None
To: Pat Conlon
Subject: I've been away, but that's not nice, Pat
Message:
I also agree that Phil Stoiber is a nice guy. But I don't believe I ever made any characterizations about Phil, or the person I saw Phil with at Beach Blanket Babylon one night, quite a few years ago. I was happy to see Phil, whom I remember fondly.

I have no idea if he has a husband, let along the man he was with was one and the same, and I certainly don't know what that person's political affiliation is. The 'Uncle Tom' words are yours, not mine, but since I don't believe you have ever met the guy I have no idea what you base that on, other than the fact that you didn't 'warm up' to him when he lived in the ashram, although I doubt you ever really gave him a chance, seeing as you had him pegged at a distance and never let him get near you.

I remember Phil as a very sincere, caring and sensitive person. I assume he still is. Just because somebody is a 'church lady' it doesn't mean they are defective. I was most likely a church lady myself once, and I would hope no one would hold it against me, either.

Really, Pat, please don't put words into my mouth; I didn't make negative comments about Phil. I also don't get this insulting opinion of yours that just because somebody is homosexual, they are somehow more at fault for believing in Maharaji.

BTW, Dignity and the Sisters are not related organizations.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Mon, Apr 02, 2001 at 17:35:11 (GMT)
From: Pat Conlon
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: Joe, point taken and slap accepted NT
Message:
k
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Mon, Apr 02, 2001 at 20:27:33 (GMT)
From: Joe
Email: None
To: Pat Conlon
Subject: That's okay, Pat.
Message:
I am sorry to see that Phil is still involved though.
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Mon, Apr 02, 2001 at 21:34:32 (GMT)
From: Pat Conlon
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: Joe, I was been smart-alecky and dumb
Message:
Yes, of course he is a sweet guy and I am also sorry to see that he is still in the cult. We worked together for a while at CPMC and he really was a gentle person. I'm such a silly bitch sometimes and say stupid shit. How are you? I figured you were out town. This joint has been jumping.
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Mon, Apr 02, 2001 at 15:04:18 (GMT)
From: Mercedes
Email: None
To: Pat Conlon
Subject: Phil
Message:
I know Phil's still involved but I love him dearly and I mean dearly he's my friend. So what everybody has their own time.
mercedes
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Mon, Apr 02, 2001 at 22:08:30 (GMT)
From: Francesca
Email: None
To: Mercedes
Subject: Would you convey my best wishes to Phil
Message:
He was in my circle of folks that I could heart-to-heart with in the San Francisco ashram. We were all trying to figure out what was going on, the eternal search. Looking around at ourselves and everything around us. Those things never change, unless I think I know it all and can stop at some point. (I sure hope not.)

He was always honest, caring and up front with me and I wish him ALL the best.

--f

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Tues, Apr 03, 2001 at 04:23:44 (GMT)
From: Mercedes
Email: None
To: Francesca
Subject: Would you convey my best wishes to Phil
Message:
Hi Francesca, yes he is still that way honest and a sweetheart and I will convey your greetings to him.
love,
mercedes
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Mon, Apr 02, 2001 at 21:23:12 (GMT)
From: Agent 007
Email: None
To: Mercedes
Subject: Phil is ok by me
Message:
I knew Phil. He's ok.
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Mon, Apr 02, 2001 at 21:21:59 (GMT)
From: Agent 007
Email: everglades007@hotmail.com
To: Mercedes
Subject: Mercedes, are you from Seattle?
Message:
Mercedes,

Are you from Seattle? Or did you live there?

Email me if you wish at everglades007@hotmail.com

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Mon, Apr 02, 2001 at 16:37:21 (GMT)
From: Joy
Email: None
To: Mercedes
Subject: Phil (ot)
Message:
I used to run into Phil when I worked 'across the street' from him downtown Seattle (he was in the Art Museum, I was in the Wa. Mutual Tower). We'd sometimes take the same bus home together. I never knew him all that well in SF, but we'd have some good chats on the bus, and he was a really sweet guy, I agree. Just a genuinely nice person, M issues aside. I can't hold it against him that he's still a church lady, to each his own.

Hope to meet you at Seattle's upcoming Latvian night, Mercedes!

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Mon, Apr 02, 2001 at 01:25:51 (GMT)
From: Mercedes
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: ruthless, cunning...service???
Message:
I've been pondering and taking inventory about my experiences doing service and came to the conclussion that it was an awfull environment. In the area I did service, translation, everybody was trying to ingratiate themselves so that they would translate the urug, I felt for me it was a losing battle, there is no kindness, no loving anything it is ruthless and ugly, it is hyerarchical and people are better than the rest. I am really disgusted. I needed to vent.
Mercedes
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Mon, Apr 02, 2001 at 16:53:00 (GMT)
From: Jean-Michel
Email: None
To: Mercedes
Subject: Translators' trappings
Message:
I've been watching this endless game for decades.

Most of them want to be allowed in the k and pre-k sessions/selections. And they actuallyt fight sometimes for this !!

The funniest lila is when they're allowed to translate the urug, but the booths are backstage, and they don't get to see him .... What a laugh!!

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Tues, Apr 03, 2001 at 10:21:48 (GMT)
From: Katie Darling
Email: None
To: Jean-Michel
Subject: But Jean-Michel, you don't understand!
Message:
Yes, J-M but do you know the grace - la grace - la gracia! of feeling the Lord's words come through your own mouth? And all nestled up there in the booth with headphones on, we felt so close to the action, so one with him. You wouldn't understand!

BTW Mercedes, is Elisa still the main translator? She was a good friend of mine, until I became a bit exey.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Tues, Apr 03, 2001 at 16:19:59 (GMT)
From: Jean-Michel
Email: None
To: Katie Darling
Subject: Elisa upgraded to instructorship
Message:
a few years back ....

Oh yeah, I've felts that grace, but also enjoyed the fights ....

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Mon, Apr 02, 2001 at 04:22:03 (GMT)
From: Roy
Email: z
To: Mercedes
Subject: Which premies are dearest to the hamster?? nt
Message:
z
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Mon, Apr 02, 2001 at 04:07:27 (GMT)
From: Pat Conlon
Email: None
To: Mercedes
Subject: Grace race worse than rat race - yuck! NT
Message:
l
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sun, Apr 01, 2001 at 19:37:49 (GMT)
From: Dermot
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: URGENT..Dettmers/Anth........is 'Raja Ji '...
Message:
now a no no topic??

I have gone , believe me , but I must return to make this post as it seems to me that something vitally important is being carefully avoided and ' swept under the carpet'.

Since MD's London lunch date with Dharam Singh Rawat it seems to me that no2 Dharam is now 'out of bounds' as far as this forum is concerned I'm also at a loss to understand why MD didn't lay down his own terms for the meeting instead of automatically deferring to Dharam Singh.

Surely the best tactic would have been to inform Dharam that he'd love to meet him but due to his loyalty to ex premies and the forum the meeting must be an OPEN and honest one. If he received a refusal then there'd always be a future opportunity when the heat is really on the Rawats . There's a good chance Dharam would then come running ….no strings attached.

I've noticed Lester's post to Anth 'AJW…I'm confused' has been left un-answered. Anth…..Lester makes a good point….it deserves an answer matey.

Also , an important post from Jim to MD 'RajaJi's different' has been left un-answered too.Now I've noticed MD/Jim exchanges in the past and they always seem to reach a public conclusion. Not so here! Why??

I've made the point before about 'us and them'.Is there a hierarchy of important, crucially RELEVANT information access on this forum or not?

I also repeat my recent post question: ' is 'Raja Ji' part of the con or not???

Best Wishes to Y'all

Now I'm gone….promise !!

Dermot

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Mon, Apr 02, 2001 at 09:01:10 (GMT)
From: AJW
Email: None
To: Dermot
Subject: URGENT..Dettmers/Anth........is 'Raja Ji '...
Message:
Hi Dermot,

I've not had much time for forum frolics the past few weeks, so I'm not up to speed at the moment.

I've replied to Lester's question down below.

Raja-ji isn't a no no topic with me. I don't know the guy all that well, but the times I did spend with him, he always seemed OK.

There's this eternal dilema of human relationships, do we take people as they are, or do we take them as the job they do. There is a grey area in the middle. When I stare at it, I don't have any answers.

Anth who also has a grey area in the middle of his head.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sun, Apr 01, 2001 at 22:18:21 (GMT)
From: bill
Email: None
To: Dermot
Subject: Maybe you misread Dettmers post?..nt
Message:
sdfha
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sun, Apr 01, 2001 at 20:05:14 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Dermot
Subject: URGENT..Dettmers/Anth........is 'Raja Ji '...
Message:
Dermot,

Oh my God, this is going to seem like the biggest fucking set up ever. Here's what happened. Dermot emailed me with these same concerns wondering aloud if I'd talked with Mike and if I'd somehow been 'appeased' and that's why I'd dropped the issue and Mike hadn't replied further. I told Dermot that not only had that not happened but that it wouldn't. That I was disinclined to call Mike just because I didn't want to get some insider scoopy, even if I could (and, of course, let's be clear, I didn't assume I could, given Mike's promise to RJ. But, human nature being what it is, I did think it was at least possible). Indeed, I actually urged Dermot to post something to this effect so that I wouldn't be a lone wolf on this one.

So guess what I did? Yes, I called Mike! Was it my intention to compromise him or me? No, not at all. At the same time, I consider Mike a friend and I wanted to talk about how I thought it was difficult for me to talk to him with this new secret package on the table, so to speak, but un-openable.

Dermot, I love you. You are tres cool and, as I told you in email, you and I are quite on the same page on this. As I told Mike just a few minutes ago, I still think there's an issue there. Nothing's changed except now, well, what can I tell you? I've been bought off.

No, seriously, here's what happened. I called Mike. We talked about this issue. I can tell you right now that he did not tell me a single thing RJ said (other than that he remembers meeting me -- with nothing further on that point -- just remembers meeting me). I didn't ask. In fact, we both agreed that we wouldn't go there for all the right reasons. RJ, if you're reading this, you should know that that's the case.

On the other hand, as he already did here, Mike explained to me what HIS side of the conversation was. Well, not so much in terms of a dialogue. After all, that would be a very easy way to breach the spirit of his promise to RJ. He didn't do that. Rather, Mike told me what he said here, that he explained his own process to date. He didn't tell me and I didn't ask what RJ's response was.

Now, I still maintain this bugs me a bit. As I told Mike, I don't expect anything from m or his family or top-drawer PAMs beyond a chance to look in their eyes as they're confronted with some of the shit we went through. That's really all I expect. A lot less than the South African Truth and Reconciliation Committee closure but something. Well, Mike's now had a chance to get a bit of that and, unfortunately, unless RJ ever does take a principled stand (assuming he ever breaks from m at all, which I don't assume or know anything about), that look is something we might never hear about. That's the compromise. That's what I wanted and that's what I don't get.

Question: do I think that there was anything more to the meeting but Mike expressing his own process? No, I don't. I trust Mike on that score.

Question: do I fault Mike for meeting with him? Hm, no, not really. Hard to truthfully put myself in his shoes, isn't it? The situation was fraught with ethical peril for Mike, I do think that. But I also think that Mike was cognizant of that throughout and avoided same. Let's remember, Mike is in the process of explaining the development of his own 'consciousness-raising' (did I say that?). It would have been too, too ironic for him to blow all that personal capital in the very conversation he's explaining its development, wouldn't it? I think Mike was aware of that.

So, that's that. It IS an imperfect world. This happened. I can live with it. I have Mike's word that there was nothing even approaching him talking with RJ as some sort of entreaty to the the cult, to m via RJ, let's say. It wasn't like that and I trust him accordingly.

Now, having said all that, there is something I infer from this situation. I infer that RJ is not, in any way, centrally positioned to BE any sort of 'broker' vis a vis m. I just figure that if he was, Miek could not have met with him as he did and all that.

I can talk about that more later but I really do have to get to work this aft. Got to write a closing address for tomorrow.

Dermot, I just pray that you don't feel that I somehow set you up here. Like I say, I really appreciate that you saw the issue as I did. I hope that you can accept the resolution that I think's possible. Again, I reached this point without any secret nothing from Mike. Please accept this as true.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Mon, Apr 02, 2001 at 03:58:30 (GMT)
From: a0aji
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Nice post, Jim. nnt
Message:
nnt==no new text

I can talk about that more later but I really do have to get to work this aft. Got to write a closing address for tomorrow.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Mon, Apr 02, 2001 at 00:25:28 (GMT)
From: janet
Email: None
To: Jim, dermot, mike, all
Subject: is 'Raja Ji'off limits now?...hell no!
Message:
nobody made any kind of pact to lay off Dharam Pal, and Dettmers has not brought back with him any kind of agreement not to discuss him. All he has done is have lunch with him and it sounds like common courtesy about personal lives is being honored.
We can go on discussing Raja Ji here!
I am somewhat disappointed by the seeming conclusion that brother #2 does not seem to have any sway with the power on the Throne, but given what we know of medieval power struggles, reversals of fortune and the tides and times, the saga isn't over yet, and there can always be future unexpected developments in which the balance of power dramatically shifts and opportunism leaps into the breach. The survivors of Hans have never been known to resist opportunism, now, have they? And in families this ambitious, greedy and divided, there is ample potential for such spectacles.
Scenarios:
Supposing Prem Pal goes down in his plane or his yacht and all aboard are fatally lost? Would it seem possible that RajaJi might step forward into the breach and assume the role in his brother's mantle, albeit with a different style?
Is it beyond the realm of imagination that he might actually bring his humility and his personal modesty to the leadership, preferring to lead without the court intrigues, dilatory exaggeration and self aggrandizement of his brother? Turn the focus back onto Knowledge and Service and his own quiet way of practicing what his father showed him?
Considering that neither Hans nor Amar has ever given Satsang in public, in sharp contrast to three of the four sons of Hans, who have been doing this since they were young children,
and considering that the hindu view of women pretty much precludes the chances of any of the rawat women taking the throne,
and the long experience and familiarity of RajaJi with the premies and they with him, the world over,
It is entirely likely that it would be RajaJi who would step into the vacancy and assume the the mantle of leadership over the global flock.
He could keep his rich lifestyle, stay in the business he has always known, keep all the friends he has made all over the world, and hopefully carry the job with far less bombast and ego, pain and human abuse than his brother did.
We had a discussion here some time recently about the contrast in styles between Satpal and Prempal, saying that Satpal seems to focus his following on service and personal fastidiousness, while Prempal has opted to drive his toward unrelenting adulation and devotion toward himself, personally.
Since Dharam pal is uncomfortable with personal adulation, it stands to reason that if he took over leading the flock, he would do it in a manner reflecting his classic preferences. That's human nature.
And even more so, since terms such as 'satguru' and 'surrender' have been forsaken in contemporary parlance of Knowledge. Rajaji would have no need to go anywhere near that whole inflated spectacle, and would be free to direct his remarks to his own humbler appreciation for results of the practice when speaking to assemblies.
Given Prempal's meat-eating diet, smoking, drugging and drinking, and his bombastic temper, type-A impatience and abusive ridicule of his employees,
he's also a prime candidate on the fast track to a massive heart attack, and I'd say it's due sometime pretty presently, here. audience, Start your countdowns.
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Mon, Apr 02, 2001 at 01:37:07 (GMT)
From: BBB
Email: None
To: janet
Subject: is 'Raja Ji'off limits now?...(a small aside)
Message:
hi janet,

in reference to the succession issue - not that long ago M spoke of wanting to leave everything in order, as best he could for his successor whether it be a him or her. I was quite taken aback at the time - the possibility of a female 'perfect master'.

Maybe it was a demonstration of political correctness, but at the time i thought it was profoundly prophetic!!(maybe I was being profoundly pathetic??)

About Raja Ji...an image I carry with me from a couple of years ago. M was approaching alone over a large expanse of grass. No-one was around. I happened to be looking through a window. Raja Ji appeared, his girlfriend close behind. Raja Ji fell to the ground and pranamed at M's feet. He stayed there for quite some time. M stared off into the distance.

Of course I was deeply moved.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Mon, Apr 02, 2001 at 08:02:32 (GMT)
From: Connie
Email: None
To: BBB
Subject: is 'Raja Ji'off limits now?...(a small aside)
Message:
Hi BBB

I remember m saying that about his successor, alluding to it being male or female, but who knows what he really meant.

It is just speculation, but I can't see Raja Ji taking over, IMO there would have to be a mighty big overhaul.

In the past few years, Raja Ji has worked on the event side of things, often in charge. I think that was his role brief at one point, maybe still is. Within the current team format of course.

He does go to places to talk, like he is doing now in London. To drum up business.

He is looked after in the same manner as all of m's family, off the love, generosity and sincerity of people, excluding those who have bought their way in. They sit, drink and chat with him. They can look him in the eye. To some he is friend, to others he is there to serve.

It has often been said by PAMS that living off m and being totally dependant upon him, has not been good for raja. That maybe he would have been so much more if he had to stand on his own two feet. So, in one way he was/is both perpertrator and victim, like many.

But I think his position is unique, he is not particularly loved and treated well for himself, but for who he is, m's brother. As his brother, he has automatically been given semi-divine status, plus oodles of consciousness. Even though leaner, his facial features and expressions bear a striking resemblence to m at times, must be Rawat family features and attitudes.

I wonder what he sees when he looks in the mirror?

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Mon, Apr 02, 2001 at 08:43:35 (GMT)
From: Connie
Email: None
To: Connie
Subject: above post, no reference to M. Dettmers intended
Message:
Michael left years ago. I trust his integrity and honesty.

I am talking about now, within the current mode.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Mon, Apr 02, 2001 at 08:51:48 (GMT)
From: Pat Conlon
Email: None
To: Connie
Subject: Connie, the new non-cult PAMs are different
Message:
Dettmers had ideals, values and a conscience. I know who you are talking about - the guys who have been able to stomach all the Fudgemeister's crap and are full of it themselves.
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Mon, Apr 02, 2001 at 00:29:51 (GMT)
From: Selene
Email: None
To: janet
Subject: he always seemed kind of lost to me
Message:
They probably just 'keep' him. I mean what would he do join Scientology and get a bus boy job?
At least Bhole Ji was having fun.
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Tues, Apr 03, 2001 at 01:18:25 (GMT)
From: Gary
Email: None
To: Selene
Subject: my impression too. nt
Message:
z
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Mon, Apr 02, 2001 at 00:46:36 (GMT)
From: janet
Email: None
To: Selene
Subject: well, ya never know. people can discover
Message:
surprising resolve and strength when circumstances leave them no alternative. I know motherhood did it to me...
you know that saying?
'some men are born to greatness, some seek it, and some men have it thrust upon them'?

and the soviets have an adage, that 'men do not make hstory; History makes men.'

perhaps if such a scenario came to pass, rajaji would finally come into his own and find his true strength as a man. Great responsibility can transform a person, can kickstart a vast maturing of character and selfdiscovery that one heretofore never knew was latent within oneself.

and there is another saying i cannot recall in exact quoting that conveys the idea that a reluctant leader is actually the best kind, for they carry no illusions into the role and do the most honest job of handling it.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Mon, Apr 02, 2001 at 00:56:58 (GMT)
From: Selene
Email: None
To: janet
Subject: that I know
Message:
Motherhood changed me completely and immediately. You are right but I can't see him getting kicked out on his ass w/o anything to live on which is about what it would take for any of those spoiled brats in that family.

Still can's say I would choose to have him really a leader of anything I can think of Janet. Those security guys were awful but that was ages ago so who knows?

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Mon, Apr 02, 2001 at 02:44:28 (GMT)
From: janet
Email: None
To: Selene
Subject: i thought about those days. He was 18 then.and be
Message:
ing a virgo, he was probably acting on the general teenage ill considered frenzy of his superior, who was his 16 year old brother. Virgos tend to serve, not lead, y'know. as long as someone else is taking the lead, they'll try to go along and be helpful and get into the spirit of things. They take their cues from watching the boss.
Sat Pal is a virgo too, but he's the oldest, the firstborn. He had, what?- 6 years of growing up under Shri Hans's serious fatherhood, before little imperious, squalling Prem Pal was born? He had already seen his next brother and his second brother born in those 6 years, and had probably had some responsibility for looking after them, as eldest children do, even if it was nothing more than watching them and seeing that they didn't eat dirt and bugs or wander away. All this in a world without Prem Pal. Just mom and dad and his two younger brothers, simple bhole ji and shy rajaji, who were only 4 and 2 until the day prem pal came along.
With his age difference,seriousness and obvious intelligence, it's not likely that satpal was impressed much with the act of baby brother. By the time satpal reached age 7, prempal would have barely been walking and getting out a few single words.By the time satpal reached the wise old age of 8, prempal would have been all of 2--the terrible 2's. everything is 'no! Mine!do it myself!'.
Remember when you were 8? How did you view two year olds?? Not especially impressed, were you? Your dad towered over you and your siblings were just annoyances, who kept taking your stuff, and getting into things, and telling on you. Remember how unthinkabley vast the differences seem, to children just a year apart in age? It tends to continue, all the way up until maybe late highschool, with the younger children looking up to the elder in awe and trust, unable to imagine what they must know and understand, and older children looking back down on those younger than them with contempt, or zero interest, as still doing 'kid stuff', or with sober, pseudo-mature caretaking of them, like little parents, standing in for mom and dad and imitating them. Or tormenting them.
So Satpal would not have been impressed with baby brother, regardless. His memory of shri hans, of dad, would have been the first and foremost touchstone in his reality, and Dad's death when he was 14 wouldn't have changed that memory. What does a 14 year old think of an 8 year old? When Prempal held forth vehemently and rhetorically to the crowds about 'serving Guru Maharaji', Satpal doubtless heard it in his mind to mean honoring his memory of Hans, his own father. Prempal's words were always couched in a way of refrence that left it open to the listener to construe what they wanted to believe it referred to, for them.
So Satpal would have never been inclined to view baby brother as his superior, despite all. His disgust and retreat home to India to continue as he did makes perfect sense, consistent with what we know the world over, about birth order, development and sibling maturity contrast.
Rajaji's behavior is consistent with the model as well. He was 2 when prempal came into the world. He was much younger, closer in age and development, all along. Given his personality shyness and being a middle child, he is used to being overlooked, going along, seeing his eldest and his youngest brothers get more attention, by their turns, and not expecting much.
Being as Rajaji was 18 when the blowup happened, and prempal 16, its not surprising that they would decide to rebel against mom, and stick with the good life in the west, as any teenage brothers would, to make their break for male independence.
It is also not surprising that gentle Bhole ji, at 20, and responsible Satpal at 22 would go with mom, back to the stronghold of Hans, their father and their Maharaji.

Given the loyalty war and the habits of the followers of prempal since, I really doubt that they would all happily switch to Satpal if Prempal died. And in light of our recent discussions about what keeps Rajaji chained to where he is, I don't think he would return to the homeland and willingly subsume himself under Satpal, either. Not while Prempal's loyal flock wanted him to stay, and were happy to keep him in the manner to which he has become accustomed, and looked to him for cues.

So that's my view of them. I can't see anyone in EV stepping into the vacancy. I can't see any of his kids doing it. They haven't the long experience or the temperament, nor the place that Rajaji has held for 30 years in the minds of the premies. We have known Marolyn and the kids since 1974, and none of them has displayed anything like the attention- holding desire or willingness for public appearance that the brothers Rawat have/did, whichever side of the family line they espoused, at any given point in their lives.

So all things considered, Rajaji is the only logical one I can see stepping into the breach if/when Prempal dies.
Now, If Rajaji were to die in the same event at the same time Prempal did, I don't know of anyone in the present spectrum, who could remotely assume and carry the mantle. the premies would have to cling to the videos and written body of Prempal's words until they all died out. He would become like all the other dead authors who've left movements behind. Elan Vital would have no choice left but to become like the Self- Realization Fellowship, or the Krishna Temple, or the Church of Scientology, carrying on their outreach based on pushing the works of their departed leader [Yogananda, Prahbupad, L. Ron Hubbard].
Yeeesh.
What a spectre.
And we would be the detractors. Would it be worth fighting against, anymore?
Hm.
It certainly is with Scientology. It certainly is with the Krishna Temple. They're still pernicious to the gullible, even without their leaders alive anymore...
so, I guess, yeah, we would.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Mon, Apr 02, 2001 at 08:24:52 (GMT)
From: Pat Conlon
Email: None
To: janet
Subject: Who's next guru? My money's on a bitch fight
Message:
Premlata vs Dayalata. But will we have to call them Mistresses?

I see the convention center in the year 2020 when finally after years of seething animosity the two Holy Cows take off their gloves and claw at each others eyes on stage while the church ladies gasp.

After they are debunked and dethroned they take up a career mud-wrestling in cheap bars all over southern California. Daya moonlights as a torch singer but her lovely mezzo is ruined from screaming at her devotees for 20 years.

Premlata's life is never the same again when the dentist tells her he cannot cap her teeth one more time. She gets dentures and drinks vodka straight from the bottle in cheap motels and prays to a photograph of her dead father.

I honestly don't wish this on you ladies, but it will be your fate if your follow in your father's footsteps. The guru business is dead in the west. Too silly and undemocratic.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Tues, Apr 03, 2001 at 00:04:01 (GMT)
From: Selene
Email: None
To: Pat Conlon
Subject: It won't matter
Message:
It will all be DVD and satellite. They can put any talking head they wantup there. Keep the one they have for that matter.
But I've always thought Dya.
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Mon, Apr 02, 2001 at 08:46:25 (GMT)
From: janet
Email: None
To: Pat Conlon
Subject: you fags just love bitchfights, is all.
Message:
you just wish you were that sexy, miss thing!
.
.
.
actually, i liked the film noir sisters concept. it would make a funny pulp novel to write.
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Mon, Apr 02, 2001 at 08:58:24 (GMT)
From: Pat Conlon
Email: None
To: janet
Subject: But straight guys love mud-wrestling dykes
Message:
I once wrote a short story about when Wadi takes over and how it devolves into a cult of hedomism. This cult becomes the new religion of the west: consumerism, recreational sex and me-ism taken to the nth degree.
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Mon, Apr 02, 2001 at 09:45:51 (GMT)
From: janet
Email: None
To: Pat Conlon
Subject: astrologically, wadi isnt the likely one.
Message:
wadi is a Pisces. Daya is a cancer. I would bet on her. Cancers have this hidden agenda. They can seem all soft and needy and retiring, but they never forget to provide for themselves. They can be shockingly selfish in the clinches. and once their claws clamp onto something. they are incapable of letting go of it.
they are both water signs, but daya is the stronger of the two. Wadi is a mutable sign and her sun is 90° to her old man's, Not good. cross purposes, conflicts, squaring off. he already aborted her attending USC, made her come home and work in the family business. pisces is not one to outright oppose. they will yeild, but harbor resentment, and it will emerge in satire or in elusiveness and escaping. Or they will self sabotage so that no matter what happens, they somehow just can't win. they can actually win for losing. It's one way to get what they want in the end.
Daya on the other hand, being cancer, is 150° to her father's sun. the angle is known as quincunx or inconjunct. It acts like a mirage, drawing both people to get better, go farther, try things they never would have attempted to go for, if apart. they will never get to the goal they think they are setting out to reach, but by enticing each other, both will travel a far way from where they began and have learned a hell of a lot for it by the time they realize it.

marolyn is a scorpio, the third of the three water signs. she's fixed, daya is cardinal; or cadent, wadi is mutable or changeable, adaptable. fixed signs make others come to them, they want it the way they see it. cadent signs like to set a pace, like to think they are setting an example of the right way to do things, showing other how to be. changeable signs are flighty and elusive, like to be surrounded by variety and a lot of different stimuli, are involved with the differences between things and like to switch from one thing to another. they adapt.

any time you have two people of the same element, they are likely to get along. anytime you have two people of the same 'speed', there are likely to be clashes. its like two norths or two souths. they repel because they are alike, and competing for the same spot. you can't have two centers. you can't have two pace setters. you can't get two grasshoppers to jump in tandem. One of them can stay and one will have to find themselves another arena.

so marolyn and her daughters are a water trine: one scorpio [fixed water] one cancer[cadent water] and one pisces [mutable water]. its harmonious and operates on feelings and gut senses. one is the anchor [mom] one is the pacesetter [daya] and one is the adapter [wadi]. since mom has had a brain aneurism, she by her own admission has pulled back within herself and avoids all stress. wadi, being the adaptable water one, has already had one cross purpose to dad and lost, and has had to adapt, albeit with her own private escape. that leaves daya,a pacesetter without competition from mom or big sis, not in conflict with dad, and while appearing soft and desirable and vulnerable, is nobody's fool and has definite personal intents to see that she is never without what she intends to possess and protect of her own. and she won't go at it directly, either. remember, crabs move sideways.

yu heard it here first. feel free to refer back and see if my words bear out over time.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Mon, Apr 02, 2001 at 10:29:12 (GMT)
From: Pat the Astrology Fag
Email: None
To: janet
Subject: astrologically, wadi isnt the likely one. I agree
Message:
That's why I imagine Wadi retiring to lick her wounds while Daya scratches her way to the top with her crab claws. I hear you.

Now the boys? Hans another Virgo (too modest like Bubblegum Ji and Number Two Ji) and Amar a Cap. HMMH? Maybe Amar? All spit and polish. Business.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Mon, Apr 02, 2001 at 14:06:02 (GMT)
From: janet
Email: None
To: Pat the Astrology Fag
Subject: astrologically, isnt Amar a sag-cap cusp?
Message:
i confess, by the time amar was conceived and born, i must have been already leaving and didnt realize it. i was utterly unaware of his gestation and birth, unthinkable in earlier times. the news took me by surprise and made me realize how little i cared anymore. i heard about it some time after the fact and was jarred to realize that i had left the whole mass hoo-ha behind that much. try as i might, i remained incurious about it.
wasnt he born on christmas or something like that?
doesnt that make him a sag-cap cusp?

my landlord is one. dead on the winter solstice. and he has both personalities, in spades.
he has the cap love of hanging onto anything that is still potentially useful or fixable, the longterm eye to gradually and methodically planning his work and working his plan, the cap love of system and order and tangible value...
he has acquired a stable of properties that give him income, which he repairs himself with said materials.

and he is a university physicist of scientific pursuit, still intellectually young at age 60 something, and in sag tradition can hold forth with a wall of wwords about next to nothing and make it sound grand and important and speechified.

my grandfather was a sag cap cusp, and he , too, built up a fortune in tangible business, laying roads in new york. also very methodical. responsible, systematic, sank his worth into abiding, enduring, rock solid real estate.

my mom was a cap, but had an aries ascendent that i think was her undoing. never amounted to anything. too busy tossing her head and rebelling and defying expectations. wasted her life in bitterness and drank herself to death.

so, what, if anything, do we know of Amar, other than that he is learning to pilot a plane like dad did, and that both sons have made the club scene in london?

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sun, Apr 01, 2001 at 19:46:25 (GMT)
From: Francesca
Email: None
To: Dermot
Subject: Bye Dermot, hope you come back soon! n/t
Message:
n/t
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sun, Apr 01, 2001 at 18:26:30 (GMT)
From: Pat Conlon
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: Bye, I'm going back to Maharaji
Message:
Twenty-eight years ago today I received M's wonderful gift of K and I am feeling so grateful that I realize that I made a mistake in turning my back on him.

After reading Sandy's posts yesterday, I realized that I am a fool and should never have stopped feeling grateful for that experience within inside of myself that is suck a gift.

All the allegations against M are not important. Everyone knows that god is above human understanding and does not have to obey silly man-made laws. So I am returning to help M spread his beautiful gift all over the world.
.

.

.


APRIL FOOL

Sorry, I just couldn't resist it. I may have been a fool for 28 years but no more.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Mon, Apr 02, 2001 at 00:35:38 (GMT)
From: janet
Email: None
To: Pat Conlon
Subject: interesting typo, there, pat:'suck a gift'
Message:
but we all know, pat! you don't suck tit, pat! you're a gay man! so once again, freud has betrayed your real sentiments. We know you too well!
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
although if my abovementioned scenario happened, if rajaji assuming the mantle came to pass, I might actually consider going back, to see if things had unfrozen any, and returned to a more humanly honest reality. it would be interesting to see if people would come out of their shitty selfish attitudes and emerge from the trance. but i would be damned wary.
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Mon, Apr 02, 2001 at 03:56:26 (GMT)
From: Pat Conlon
Email: None
To: janet
Subject: Holy Cow, Janet!
Message:
I saw the typo and decided to leave it.

But, you are freaking me with talk about considering what it would be like going back to a GOOOROOO. Who the fuck needs a urug anyway?

Not me. As I said if Jesus walked across the water to save us I would ask her to sit on the Salvation Committee with the rest of us. No masters for me. God is a democrat.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sun, Apr 01, 2001 at 20:58:38 (GMT)
From: Roger eDrek
Email: drek@oz.net
To: Pat Conlon
Subject: Me too. I can't stand this shit anymore
Message:
Catweasel, Cerise, Anything Goes closing down, Raja Ji, Sandy, da Rapper, Rob McHoaxer, Cerebus (sp?), etc.

I couldn't take it anymore last night and I got out my framed picture of Maharaji giving darshan at Guru Puja, I pranamed, sang arti and meditated.

Brothers and sisters, the peace was and still is THERE, in THAT place. Open yourselves up to it again. Say NO to the MIND and embrace THAT love, the love that is Maharaji.
.

.

.

.

.

.

April Fool too!

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sun, Apr 01, 2001 at 23:53:56 (GMT)
From: Gregg
Email: None
To: Roger eDrek
Subject: I know you guys were just April Fooling, but...
Message:
me, I'm really going back to the Lotus Feet. I know darshan is a little outre these days, but I'm hoping for some swooning at Amaroo. I mean, what's really important in this precious life? Grousing on the Internet or connecting with what is really precious within?

By His Grace, i once understood (lowercase 'I' represents my newfound humility and intent to 'understand,' i.e. 'stand under' the everflowing fountain of His Grace - sorry if I'm getting repetitive, but if repeating the glories of His Grace is a crime, count me guilty on all charges, your honor)the purpose of this life - to love, honor and obey the Perfect Master - and I am prepared to once again submit to the yoke of Faux Hinduism in this precious lifetime.

Oh shit. Would you look at the date? Thank God, I'm free at last. Prostations to the Lotus Feet are Null and Void on this date. Thank God.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sun, Apr 01, 2001 at 23:56:37 (GMT)
From: Selene
Email: None
To: Gregg
Subject: hey I never left his Lotus Feetsies
Message:
haha April Fool's

Selene - anonymous trools favorite pick for fool of the year

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sun, Apr 01, 2001 at 23:14:12 (GMT)
From: Pat the Fat Fag
Email: None
To: Roger eDrek
Subject: Any room in your ashram for Pauline Premie
Message:
and Thelma the Church Lady?
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sun, Apr 01, 2001 at 20:55:32 (GMT)
From: Tony(Aussi Ji)
Email: parisw@ozemail.com.au
To: Pat Conlon
Subject: I was waiting for it Pat,you cunny funt.LOL.ha ha.
Message:
ha ha.I knew you would be first cab off the rank with the april fools day joke.Cheers mate.

Tony.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sun, Apr 01, 2001 at 23:12:19 (GMT)
From: Pat Conlon
Email: None
To: Tony(Aussi Ji)
Subject: Really did get K April Fool's Day 1973 NT
Message:
h
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Mon, Apr 02, 2001 at 02:54:28 (GMT)
From: Richard
Email: None
To: Pat Conlon
Subject: I got married on 4.1.84
Message:
We were going to Jamaica for a vacation anyway and figured why waste the romantic potential. People are usually express amazement that we were married next to a waterfall in Ocho Rios. They weren't along for the ride in the back seat of the Justice of the Peace's 65 Rambler with dingle ball headliner. Soooo romantic. If things ever go whacky, a chicken killed under a full moon and the anullment is final.

Had a nice walk to celebrate today in the Nisqually Wildlife Refuge - epicenter of the 2.28.01 quake. Eagles, Redtail Hawk, geese, blue herons and a strange cayote looking dog - ooooh, I just got it - he's the April Fools the trickster. Peace y'all.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Mon, Apr 02, 2001 at 03:58:29 (GMT)
From: Pat Conlon
Email: None
To: Richard
Subject: Happy anniversary to the two of you
Message:
Bet you never forget your anniversary.
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sun, Apr 01, 2001 at 23:54:38 (GMT)
From: Selene
Email: None
To: Pat Conlon
Subject: that should have told you something huh?
Message:
Mine was May 72 Manhattan and I am happy to say I do not know the exact date. Still have my 'commandments' stored somewhere though, I think unless I went on a destroy mission while manic. I'll have to check, they would be funny to scan and post.
Do the Indians get commandments or was that a ploy or hook for us Catholic/Christian types?
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Mon, Apr 02, 2001 at 00:38:22 (GMT)
From: Pat Conlon
Email: None
To: Selene
Subject: that should have told you something huh? It did
Message:
Also it's a hard date to forget. But after the K session I said to myself, ''Well, I guess I got fooled because I knew those techs already.'' Then I didn't bother to go and see Rev Moontits until the following year. Unfortunately the darshan juju hooked me.

Well, the Indians in South Africa had the same vows to take.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sun, Apr 01, 2001 at 18:46:49 (GMT)
From: aoaji
Email: None
To: Pat Conlon
Subject: Bye, I'm going back to Maharaji
Message:

That Will Never Happen.

<tm>
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sun, Apr 01, 2001 at 22:05:01 (GMT)
From: Cynthia
Email: None
To: aoaji
Subject: Hey, aoaji, nice to see you!! n/t
Message:
nt
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Mon, Apr 02, 2001 at 03:38:50 (GMT)
From: aoaji
Email: None
To: Cynthia
Subject: You too!
Message:
nt
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sun, Apr 01, 2001 at 20:26:37 (GMT)
From: JohnT
Email: None
To: aoaji
Subject: Bye, I'm going for a while
Message:
Nice to see you back aoaji. I've got too much to do to read here for a while, so I'm out of here.

I'll still putting the brain and fingers to use for the home team though - so I'll be back (to coin a phrase) when it's time.

Whatever that is.

JohnT
- never a premie

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Mon, Apr 02, 2001 at 04:43:55 (GMT)
From: aoaji
Email: and_on_anand@yahoo.com
To: JohnT
Subject: Bye, I'm going for a while
Message:
Sorry I missed you, John. Be well. -- aoa ji
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Mon, Apr 02, 2001 at 01:17:04 (GMT)
From: janet
Email: None
To: JohnT et al
Subject: the origin of April Fool's day...
Message:
I just finished reading a bunch of aprl fool's pseudo science posts on the Discovery site, and thought I'd relate some history with my own observations added:
It seems that back in the 1500's, The presiding Pope made the decision to change the western christian world's convention of marking time over to the Gregorian Calendar, which set the beginning of the new year, new year's day, at january 1st instead of the centuries long natural practice of celebrating the beginning of the year at the spring equinox, which falls somewhere in the region of march 19th to march 24th each year.
The writers of the article never thought to connect the Pagan sense of the seasons and astronomy/astrology to this phenomenon, but i see it clearly, so i am inserting my wisdom here, to complete the explanation:
The Pagan French celebrated the end of the old year and the beginning of the new with a week of general merriment, jokes, feasting, pranks and parties, beginning on the equinox and continuing until April first. When the change of the calendar was imposed by the Pope, a number of the French were slow to change with the times, continuing to hold to the former ways, either out of ignorance, not understanding, subbornness, sentimentality or confusion. Those who saw magnificent opportunity to take advantage of this confusion continued to play on their fellow man, sending them false invitations to nonexistent new year's parties, telling them excited stories and rumors of such things to get them going, assuring them that no such change had happened, or that it had been rescinded, and playing similar tricks on the gullible, naive and hapless.
A person who fell for such tricks, fully believing anything they were told, earned the reputation for being «un Poisson d'Avrile», or 'an april fish.'

Now:
the transition from the old zodiacal [pagan] year to the new, at the spring equinox, is the change from the last sign of the zodiac--Pisces, the Fish--to Aries, the Ram. The sign of Pisces is known for its gullibility, naivete, willingness to 'Believe', its sympathy for one and all, and its reluctance to leave the past behind. It is easy to fool a Pisces, because they make a lifelong career out of believing everything anyone tells them. Hence, the practice of playing on that gullibility, especially lingering at the end of the sign and the year just closed.
The practice spread all over Europe with the adoption of the new calendar, and made its way to America with the european emigration to the new world. The fish of April became the April Fool.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Mon, Apr 02, 2001 at 04:01:14 (GMT)
From: Pat Conlon
Email: None
To: janet
Subject: Well, happy April Fish to you too...........NT
Message:
l
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sun, Apr 01, 2001 at 17:26:37 (GMT)
From: Gary Epton
Email: epton@magma.ca
To: Everyone
Subject: M
Message:
One of the things that kept me tied to m for so long (aside from my experience of k) was that I was by and large quite impressed with his public addresses. When you consider the sheer volume of speeches he has given, there was/is an uncanny ability to talk about the experience in a fresh way, a new context, etc. In all the in-person and video presentations that I have witnessed, I never saw m be at a loss for words, hesitate, or betray any nervousness. For me the cool and consistent manner in which he gave his message was in some ways more important than the message itself. I'm wondering if anyone could relate any personal anecdotes of what it was like being with m in private and whether m's vibe ever got weird - not just angry or sexual - just unfocussed and ill at ease? Also what was it like getting stoned with m - ever sense any paranoia? It's hard for me to imagine how anyone continually getting stoned and/or drunk with m could still revere him as Lord. What's the story here???
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Mon, Apr 02, 2001 at 08:40:08 (GMT)
From: Robert Setton
Email: None
To: Gary Epton
Subject: M
Message:
A good question Gary. I had Cynthia's experience where M was both subdued and reserved whenever I'd overtly express my love or admiration of him, and scathing and sarcastic when I was in my bumbling humble premie mode. Had a good night after he arrived at Reigate (UK res) once, me and Sandy C had just brought the blue velvet bedspread back from the dry cleaners when Peter Lee drove in with the 'boss'. We gathered the luggage etc and did the usual stand back and wait routine. That night we had a welcome party and I remember many unknown people rushing around arranging drinks and food snacks. We always felt invaded because we wanted it to be us (about 7) and him but there were always imported staff and hangers on. However, later when we were all high he got into a jokey session with me pushing and saying what a useless blabbermouth I was (because I used to talk a lot with the gardener who couldn't read or write). It was a hilarious time and I must admit I felt special, at one over intoxicated point I grabbed M by the shoulders and, shaking him lightly, blurted something about getting Charles Cameron to write another Who is Guru Maharaji? book. He looked interested for a millisecond and then said somethingh like 'fat Chance of that!' and burst into giggles. I really wanted to pursue this line and followed him into the large drawing room where he was immediately distracted by others. It was frustrating for me because in those situations I'd always get inspired with ideas to help promote the Mission. He'd always tell me to relax, enjoy (or other verbal pacifiers). I probably could now but I was too holy and pious to do so then because of the concepts I had of DLM which I took far too seriously. My concepts have changed considerably over the years, to say the least. But no matter what, I always attempted to prize my personal experience of life and K over anything that happened around him.
regards,
Robert
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Mon, Apr 02, 2001 at 16:53:47 (GMT)
From: Brian
Email: brian@ex-premie.org
To: Robert Setton
Subject: Peace Dud
Message:
It was frustrating for me because in those situations I'd always get inspired with ideas to help promote the Mission. He'd always tell me to relax, enjoy (or other verbal pacifiers).

Maharaji used to talk about how he could personally prevent the bombs from falling - or else cause them to rain flower-petals from the sky rather than radioactive fallout - if we'd only help him spread his Knowledge. His greatest 'successes' in recruiting active 'help' came about in the West among those who had practiced hiding from nuclear war beneath our desks as children in school. It's not surprising that you took his 'mission' far more seriously than he did, while his real 'Peace Bomb' was being bottled at some distillery.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Mon, Apr 02, 2001 at 06:07:07 (GMT)
From: Francesca
Email: None
To: Gary Epton
Subject: I can't relate
Message:
Sorry to disagree, but I can't even begin to tell you. Our posts are numerous over the past few months about how annoying, overhistrionic and awful he is as a public speaker. As soon as I stopped having 'that connection' I couldn't wait for him to stop alternately screaming and whispering, babblingly, as if he were talking to a baby or a lover. From quasi abusive to fake intimate. So transparent once I wasn't thinking he was god and I really needed to get it, here. I couldn't wait for him to shut up. He was like an embarassing used car salesman of spirituality on some bad TV channel late at night. It was hokey. It was awful. It was unbelievable that I ever fell for it. The spell was broken, and the smell began.

Sorry on that one. Were you in the ashram? Did you hear his famous Kissimmee rants? They are legendary. They were traumatizing if you were trying to please him. Later on, when I thought of what he said, it was just plain bizarre. A lot of what he says is alternatively arrogant, bizzare and pointless.

I especially loved the famous line, 'suck the rat, it's full of coca-cola. [screaming, almost unglued here] YOU LOVE COCA-COLA!!' Yuck.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Mon, Apr 02, 2001 at 20:46:31 (GMT)
From: Gary Epton
Email: epton@magma.ca
To: Francesca
Subject: I can't relate
Message:
Well obviously I'm at odds with a lot of the people who post here regarding m's public addresses, and that's okay. Certainly you're entitled to consider me a dolt or m the spiritual equivalent of McDonalds. However, like I said, I was as impressed as much by the way he spoke (no nervous tics, hesitation, etc) as I was by what he said. And for me although he may have rambled, he certainly always had a point, and a new context and/or examples for talking about the 'experience'. However, my purpose here is not to 'defend' m. What I am curious about (for my own understanding and closure) is the contrast between the 'public' and the 'private' m. How his walk differed from his talk. I'm trying to get a peak behind the curtain of the wizard of oz: his nature, demeanor, because us rank and filers didn't know any better. Kinda like what Dettners has already informed us of - but another voice, another anecdote, etc. Oh yeah, and what was it like to get stoned with him; and if you were getting drunk and stoned on a regular basis with him, how it was possible to continue to revere him as a master or more. So far, not many of the reply posts have addressed any of the above.
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Wed, Apr 04, 2001 at 12:35:33 (GMT)
From: Katie H
Email: None
To: Gary Epton
Subject: Good question - maybe a new thread
Message:
I think you need a better title to get the responses you want. (I can't comment personally on M's non-formal speaking style, and I always thought he was boring in an almost hypnotic way too. Still can't listen to him without zoning out.)
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Mon, Apr 02, 2001 at 22:14:33 (GMT)
From: Francesca
Email: None
To: Gary Epton
Subject: I have people I love dearly
Message:
who love to hear his babble, so I would never consider you a dolt. Your comments are always of value here.

Sorry but I can't talk to your other part of the question because I wasn't an 'insider' by any stretch of the imagination.

--f

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Mon, Apr 02, 2001 at 20:21:50 (GMT)
From: Joe
Email: None
To: Francesca
Subject: My sentiments exactly.
Message:
I never thought he made much sense. Absolutely impossible to follow, and I even thought so when I was a premie, although I thought it was all my fault. But if one believed in him, you tried anyway. It's all part of the Emperor's New Clothes syndrome.
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Mon, Apr 02, 2001 at 08:29:55 (GMT)
From: Pat Conlon
Email: None
To: Francesca
Subject: The spell was broken, and the smell began. Fab! NT
Message:
j
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sun, Apr 01, 2001 at 22:20:08 (GMT)
From: Cynthia
Email: None
To: Gary Epton
Subject: The M persona....
Message:
Hi Gary,

I just noticed your post and wanted to tell you that I, too, always thought that goomraji was a brilliant speaker. I thought he was brilliant. Period.

That was part of the programming, I believe. When you sit in satsang for hours, listening to how brilliant he is, and how his message strikes each of us individually it's difficult not to bite the hook.

Yet, based on what I've learned about exes (who post here) some didn't always feel that way. In the short time I had personal contact with him, he was either sarcastic and rude, or reserved and quiet (translated to me ''humble'').

On the phone he was quiet, subdued when I spoke with him. His stage personality is beyond me, now, because his satsangs are so convoluted and transparent, as well as, dumb-sounding.

He's a freak.

Cynthia

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sun, Apr 01, 2001 at 23:17:04 (GMT)
From: Pat Conlon
Email: None
To: Cynthia
Subject: I always fell asleep during Rawat's rants
Message:
And felt so guilty because I thought it was my mind and that I was not listening with my heart. Irritated the shit out of the church ladies when I snored and fell sideways.
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sun, Apr 01, 2001 at 20:21:39 (GMT)
From: Bin Liner
Email: None
To: Gary Epton
Subject: Since he got modern , he's often reminded me of
Message:

...Dave Allen , a remarkably smooth & fluent Irish comedian , who was very popular in England in the 70's with his own show on the BBC.

He sat in a chair , in front of an audience , & talked .

No props , no nothing , just himself wearing a suit .

Thing is Dave Allen wasn't in the god business , quite the opposite .

I know what you mean about Rawat's public speaking abilities , he's good at it for sure .

Gotta give the guy credit for something.

Dave Allen was funnier though.

As for getting stoned with Rawat , the very thought of it makes me paranoid , never mind what the actualite must've been like for those who did .

The point is surely that ,if you & I ,& thousands of other dumb fucks had known about all this back then , we'd've bailed out .

But we didn't know : now we do .

FUCK HIM .

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sun, Apr 01, 2001 at 19:45:21 (GMT)
From: Kelly
Email: nome
To: Gary Epton
Subject: M's stage persona.
Message:
Hi Gary,
this is something that gave me great pause for thought for a long time. My first post on this forum last Nov was under the title 'Lord or Fraud' and my last plaintive question was...'How does he do it? How does he present such a blissful enlightened presence? and the answer came through loud and clear.
IT'S AN ACT, it's his stage persona. He's been rehearsing for years, it's easy for him. He knows the script so well, that he can ad lib and make it all seem natural.

But, never mind that, the real question is 'Who is the man behind the stage persona?' do you know him? did he ever invite you for tea? of course not. When I was in the ashram in Delhi, I was told over and over again, that when he went for a walk, we should not line the roads or try to see him, we should stay out of sight, that this was M's personal exercise time. He did not want to see us!!

Of course, I was very confused by this, like , where did these instructions come from? 'Was it really M's wish that he didn't want to see us?' Personally I could not believe it. Of course he must want to see his premies, and I know many others who shared this belief. And yet, when I saw him strut past, looking entirely pissed off, when he saw me lurking behind a bush!! I thought something is very wrong here!

Something IS very wrong here.
Kelly

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sun, Apr 01, 2001 at 20:25:50 (GMT)
From: Bin Liner
Email: None
To: Kelly
Subject: Snap ! Hope you're well (nt)
Message:
q
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sun, Apr 01, 2001 at 18:22:56 (GMT)
From: Roy
Email: z
To: Gary Epton
Subject: M
Message:
Hi Gary,
I was also strung along by what I considered outstanding oratory-
( gee how could this guy not be god uhhhhh.... ok. )
Being only an undergrad at the DREK school of human psychology-
( I'm not a real doctor ) I recall hearing psychopaths have an
uncanny ability to con and convince people of all sorts of lies,
and deceit- especially when mixed with some credible information
ie. your truth lies within etc. Also m at one time had a fairly
respectable provenance - what with being the favorite of the last
perfect(cough,twitch) incarnation. Strong stuff - which once accepted creates a foundation on which other lies may be added. His being born into the buisness/ and his personality disposition bring alot to the sham. I keep thinking of another master- Buster Keaton, who was born onto the vaudeville stage and whose mother and father were also adept at theater thus giving him a leg up in the biz, making his performances stunningly smooth and masterful.
( remember on the guru's tours he would work up a type of stump speech ( not unlike Bush jr.) and ply his tired
stories and personal hyperbole throughout the tour.)
I only knew the onstage rawat- I naively assumed this to be the whole person.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Mon, Apr 02, 2001 at 03:54:47 (GMT)
From: janet
Email: None
To: Roy and all
Subject: anyone want an astrological take on this?
Message:
I did rawat's horoscope many years ago, and it comes back to me, now that i can let myself think freely, rather than only in the acceptable ways.
To begin with, rawat was born when the sun was in sagittarus. I have never yet known a sag to be at a loss for words. they can put up a wall of words at the merest impetus. They love to hold forth, long and self importantly, and can make the most ordinary subject material for limitless pontification and inflation. They are observant but tactless, farseeing but restless. Their sign is half horse and half man, not wanting to be caught, tamed, broken, held or ridden. They like unlimited freedom and lots of space in which to escape, dodge, switch and bolt. Sagittarius is the mutable fire sign. fire consumes fuel and gives light and heat. it is a hungry element, craving fuel on which to feed. you cannot hold it, only watch it. You can't afford to get too close or you will get burned.
Being the mutable of the fire signs, sag is the kind of fire that must travel in quest of more fuel or it will die out. It fears being boxed in.
In addition to his sagittarius sun, Maharaji was born with Jupiter in Leo.
Jupiter is the planet of excess and abundance. Jupiter brings volume, plenty, increase.
Leo is the fixed fire sign. Its ruling planet is the Sun itself. The Sun is the center of our solar system. It is the source of all the energy and gravity that keeps life going on earth and keeps earth in its orbit, close enough to keep warm and lit. Leo as a sign is accustomed to being in the center of attention, like it's ruler, the Sun. It is used to being the brightest light in the room, indeed, in the vicinity, spacewise. There is none who can even remotely hope to compete with it in mass, lighte, heat, presence or vital importance. Being as these attributes are innately felt by anyone with Leo energy in their chart, they are maxed to the top when the planet in Leo is Jupiter. The leo innate need and sense of rightful place in the center of attention is driven into overwhelming appetite by Jupiter's presence there.
So here we have a sagittarius sun, born to the fondness of overblown pontification and self educated philosophistry, multiplied to the obscene scale of the Jupiter in Leo conviction of divine right to be the unchallenged, blinding center of attention, dimming any other would-be rival, and holding one and all in orbit within the commanding/demanding grip of unmatched mass.

Just our luck.
By the way- he also has libra rising, which is where his perpetual carping for 'synchronization' and doing things all together as one comes from. Librans always want everyone to be of one mind together. It just agonizes them when people can't get together and agree and act in unison. Unfortunately, they themselves have a built- in nemesis, in their own compulsion to provide the opposite of whatever is presently being put forward. They do it for the sake of being sure that both sides are always considered, but their very opposition destroys the unity and commonality of whatever group they are so desperately wanting to see come together as one. They can't help it. Libra begins at the 180° mark on the wheel of the year, on the fall equinox, when day and night are exactly equal and the year itself is divided exactly in half. Talk about duality! Everything and its opposite is equally true, and they yearn for a resolution to this angst. They crave balance, beauty, harmony, peace. They can't tolerate disturbance and unpleasantness. Conflict distresses them highly.
Ironically, they are generally relieved when a strong, forceful, personally convicted leader emerges and takes over the purpose of the group, because they can't make decisions alone. They prefer to bounce their dilemmas off another and work their way to a realization by countering them, and disagreeing, and playing the devil's advocate, until they reach some sort of ultimate fact that settles it in their minds for the moment.
But its never over.
As the last two chapters of the I Ching delineate:
hexagram 63,Before completion: perfection. everything in balance. culmination. all has reached it rightful place. attainment, stillness, rest, nothing remains to be done. it is finished.
hexagram 64, After completion: perfection cannot remain forever. movement begins, and with it, destabilization. momentum gathers. change comes on. what has been accomplished recedes into the past and the new approaches. the wheel begins to turn once more. the point of perfect balance is past, and a new creation demands to come into manifestation.

the japanese have a saying for this:
'always most beautiful, just before'
the americans have one as well
'can't have your cake, and eat it, too'

anyway, hope that helps everybody see prempal in the light of some of his horoscope. He's a blinding illustration of the traits.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Tues, Apr 03, 2001 at 08:04:24 (GMT)
From: Hal
Email: None
To: janet
Subject: Thanks janet-
Message:
I appreciated the effort you made to type that out. I've been interested in astrology in the past. Apparently there is no scientific proof but I notice that for the people I know well that their astrology does fit with their personality as I know them.

I found it interesting to know where those other planets you mentioned are positioned. Where's his moon by the way , besides in the shape of his face and his similarity to another cult leader ?

hal

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Mon, Apr 02, 2001 at 15:28:20 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: janet
Subject: No, thanks. Astrology's bullshit (nt)
Message:
hhhhhhhh
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Mon, Apr 02, 2001 at 10:16:08 (GMT)
From: Pat the Astrology Fag
Email: None
To: janet
Subject: thanks Janet. My chart was wrong - I had Moontits
Message:
with Aquarius ascendant (like me) and that skewed everything. Yuk!

Also born in Year of Rooster: strutting show-off, conflicted, work leads to little success etc.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Mon, Apr 02, 2001 at 15:40:48 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Pat the Astrology Fag
Subject: Come on, guys. Astrology is bunk
Message:
There's no excuse for believing in this stuff anymore, now is there? Not only is there no valid reason to taek the hypothesis 'Astrology is valid' seriously, but astrology's been handily debunked in several studies, good, controlled, scientific studies, that showed how even 'astrologers' astrologers', the guys reknown and respected in their field by other astrologers, are entirely useless at doing what they claim to be able to do: use astrology to describe anything significant about stuidied subjects. They couldn't do it. Their 'analysis' was no better than random pin-the-tail-on-the-donkey stuff. Nada benefit, just lots of smoke.
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Mon, Apr 02, 2001 at 20:37:16 (GMT)
From: Mark
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Come on, guys. Astrology is bunk
Message:
Carl Jung did an interesting scientific study using certain specific astro points-sun,moon,rising, which might balance your assessment of it being scientifically invalid.Its just an early version of the Meyers-Briggs personality test.Non determinant.

eg. you,anon,dettmers,myself,all scorps

plus M's chart did point to early death of father and public controversy w/mom or wife

so put it in the 'actually i'm not an expert, but my opinion is ...' category.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Mon, Apr 02, 2001 at 23:53:54 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Mark
Subject: Carl Jung? Sorry, not impressed at all
Message:
I've got my choices here. Resort to some collateral ad hominem attack on Carl Jung the Nazi sympathizer or stick to the subject. Hm, tough one.

Anyway, Jung was just another dreamer, wasn't he? A fun, cheating-on-his-wife-for-years-and-years new age kind of guy? (Oops! What's THAT got to do with anything?) You say he conducted a 'scientific study' on astrology. This is the first I've ever heard of this. What was the study, what was the protocol, what were the results and where can I read about it?

I did find this:

Skeptic shit on Jung

But if you can show me something or somehow further explain yourself, I'd be most interested.

Whether or not I share a birth sign with a few guys here is meaningless to me. Am I missing something.

As for Maharaji's own chart, god, Mark, you can't be serious. My chart said that I'd probably end up working with people. Amazing, huh?

Finally, regarding my 'expertise', how can someone be an 'expert' in a bogus discipline? Wouldn't the experts be those who understand why it's bunk? No, I'm not even one of those but those are the experts I'd look to, not the practicioners.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Mon, Apr 02, 2001 at 17:45:10 (GMT)
From: Pat Conlon
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Yes, Jim, Astrology is bunk. Slap accepted
Message:
I know I have better things to think about but I still have occassional fits of nostalgia for new age chit-chat.
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Mon, Apr 02, 2001 at 16:44:55 (GMT)
From: Cynthia
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Fun Bunk, though...
Message:
Jim,

Well, now I guess we know the truth about Astrology! Jim has spoken!

I think astrology is fun stuff, never put much faith into it, but I do read my daily horoscope. It's fun bunk!

Love,
Cynth

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Mon, Apr 02, 2001 at 20:02:13 (GMT)
From: cq
Email: None
To: Cynthia
Subject: and Jim wouldn't want to limit our FOS would he?
Message:
FOS=freedom of speech?

OT or otherwise.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Mon, Apr 02, 2001 at 23:55:42 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: cq
Subject: You and your FOS
Message:
What about mine?
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Wed, Apr 04, 2001 at 01:56:59 (GMT)
From: janet
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: well my latest working theory is...
Message:
microcosm, macrocosm. I'm looking at what we know of the atom and of chemistry, on the micro scale: we have a center with great mass, and we have bodies in orbits around that mass, with definite periodicities to their presence in those orbits. the electron valence shells.
we have stable arrangements of those electron locations and we have unstable placements.
the angles of attraction determine the structural strength of molecules. this is visibly evident in crystallization, where the angles can be viewed with the naked eye at the intersection of planes.
so there is a definite geometry to these periodicites.

then we go to music physics. wave mechanics, cycles, vibrations, harmonies and dissonances.
a string plucked generates a sine wave. and a sound wave, if within an audible number of cycles persecond. let's take concert A, 440cps for reference.
that sine wave can be divided in half,ie, you can fret the string, and it will resonate at another note, compatible with A.
it can be interupted at 1/3 and still resonate at a note compatible with A
true again at the 1/5
and at the 1/7 and at the 1/9th
these are called the harmonics of the original note.

they are pleasing to our ears.
not so at other fractional divisions.
the unpleasing points, we call dissonances.
we create pleasing chords with various compatible fractions, and matematically, we find that the # of cps of the notes in the chords are mathmatically divisible, indicating a common denominator of all the fractions. we might call this a kind of audible geometry.

now to the macrocosm:
the solar system resembles the atom. it, too. has a vast mass at the center, with bodies orbiting it periodically. those orbits are established, in a way similar to the electron shell valences. each body keeps to its distance from the center, and to its periodic orbiting of the center.
each body completes so many cycles per-? we have not a common unit in parlance for 'cycles per___', but we can stipulate one.
it is not beyond conceiving that these bodies , cycling as they do in regular periodicities, could be generating a kind of hum, tone, resonance.
a sine wave is generated by a point on the circumference of a circle, as the circle turns at a steady rate and the center of the circle travels in one direction at the same rate.
the same sine wave that a string forms, when plucked.
a circle with a point on its circumference would describe the orbit of a planet, with the sun in the center. that point[planet] travels at a steady rate
at so many cycles per____.
one could mentally picture that orbital path as a string, that could be snipped, and strung like a guitar string between two points, with no leftover, and pulled to the proper tension. there definitely is a characteristic tension on that 'string': when the planet is it its orbit, the tension, or pull between the planet and the sun, is what keeps it at its orbital distance and moving. so we 'tighten' the 'string' to match the tension it has in orbit.
and we pluck this string.
it resonates.
it displays harmonics at the nodal points. the 3rd,5th,7th,9th.
we do this with each of the planetary orbits, one by one, snipping and laying the circles out at their respective lengths, pegging them and drawing them to their characteristic tension when in orbit.
and we strum them.
music.
each one resonates. each one has a length, has harmonics, has periodicities.

the music of the spheres?

let us put them back in their orbits, now, appreciating their individual tensions, periodicities, resonances, and their positions.

taking the molecular model, and the crystalline,
let us consider those harmonics again. there is a regular geometry to the division of each of those circles, that appears when they are cut and strung straight, and it is still there when we put them back into the solar system in their places.
but once back in orbit, where does one mark the begnning of the circle?.
one cannot. there is no start and finish. all the bodies orbit at different rates perpetually. each has their resonance frequency, but the so called 'end pegs' vanish in the circular formation.

but there is relative position. bodies can form angles relative to each other, just as the electrons in valence shells do. and there are harmonious angles which are stable, comfortable, balanced, compatible, and there are angles which cause difficulty and instability.

consider those relative positions to be much like the fretting of a string instrument. some are harmonious and resonate like beautiful chords, when the fingers fret the strings just right.
some are accidentals, which are dissonant but interesting.
some are utterly disharmonious, mathmatically and structurally.
because all the bodies resonate, move around their circles in periodicity,without stopping, the angles formed come into being and then vanish again as time moves. some are 'good', some are not so good, but they occur and vanish again, as the notes of music do.

it is true in microcosm. it is not hard to stipulate that it happens in macrocosm as well.

and being as we live on earth in the midst of all the resonances generated, it is within the bounds of belief to accept that since we are part and parcel of it, no doubt it affects us. we could not escape it.
we know that sound affects us. why think otherwise about this?

and to point out a still greater macrocosm, our solar system rotates along the outer edge of a galaxy, in yet another periodicity, cycling,and that rotates around a still more distant center, also cycling.

think of those as the sub-bass range of this resonance.

astrology is the study of the angles and harmonics of these resonating bodies, and their effect on events.

i have my times of consulting it, and my times of leaving it, but i've been studying it for 32 years of my life, and it has helped me more than harmed me. and i do think there is valid natural reason to think it affects us. i have just given you why.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Wed, Apr 04, 2001 at 05:27:20 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: janet
Subject: well my latest working theory is...ridiculous
Message:
astrology is the study of the angles and harmonics of these resonating bodies, and their effect on events.

No it's not. Astrology is a bunch of superstitious mumbo jumbo that assumes some outlandish and unproveable nonsense and builds upon it accordingly. Pure castles made of sand. Nothing scientific about it. Indeed, it's entirely antithetical to the spirit of science.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Tues, Apr 03, 2001 at 17:36:48 (GMT)
From: cq
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: now when have I ever told you to shut up, Jim? nt
Message:
hmmmm?
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Wed, Apr 04, 2001 at 05:31:51 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: cq
Subject: So when did you stop hitting your wife, Chris?
Message:
Chris,

I wish you'd just once be a little more accurate when you attack me. Just once, please! Look again. I didn't tell anyone not to talk about astrology. Rather I said it was bullshit.

There's a big, big difference and your whining about Freedom of Speech is irrelevant and insulting. If I sound impatient it's because you've done this so many times now. Look, you want to talk about astrology, be my guest. So will I. I'll talk about it too.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sun, Apr 01, 2001 at 17:02:01 (GMT)
From: G
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: New Indian DUO site.
Message:
There is a new Indian web site for DUO (Divine United Organization, which is basically Elan Vital/Divine Light Mission in India).

The URL is

http://www.duo.org.in/

Here's a link: www.duo.org.in

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sun, Apr 01, 2001 at 21:51:38 (GMT)
From: Gary Epton
Email: None
To: G
Subject: New Indian DUO site.
Message:
I copied the following from the site's 'press kit':

Maharaji attended 123 events in 26 countries with a total attendance of more than 3 lacks people.(freudian slip?)

Maharaji speaks on the subject of juman development (maybe there is a judeo/christian conspiracy) and an individual's educating people in the 'potential of human life' through an individual learning progress called Knowledge. He holds learning Sessions for people who are interested in receiving the gift of Knowledge. His teaching are currently being studied in 86 countries all over the world. (sic)

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sun, Apr 01, 2001 at 23:30:58 (GMT)
From: Voyeur
Email: None
To: Gary Epton
Subject: New Indian DUO site.
Message:
A clarification is required on the method of counting used in the Indian subcontinent
A 'lac' is 100,000 as in 100,000 rupees or 100,000 people
A 'crore' is 10,000,000 as in 10,000,000 rupees or 10,000,000 people.
At least that is the way I remember it from the days when I used to do business there!
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Mon, Apr 02, 2001 at 01:54:26 (GMT)
From: Gary Epton
Email: None
To: Voyeur
Subject: New Indian DUO site.
Message:
Thanks a lac I did not know that.
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sun, Apr 01, 2001 at 18:10:31 (GMT)
From: Alan Fenstermacher
Email: alan@woodcon.com
To: G
Subject: New Indian DUO site.
Message:
Why would they offer a site in a language that is not native to over a billion residents of the intended audience of the host country? They might as well print books for those who can't read. What is the point? Marketing genius at its best. It must be meant for western folks looking for an Eastern experience - of course once they get that experience the will be lead to EV FAQ and find out that they are the new people putting Indian concepts on m.
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sun, Apr 01, 2001 at 23:06:08 (GMT)
From: Bin Liner
Email: None
To: Alan Fenstermacher
Subject: English is the lingua franca of educated India (nt
Message:
f
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sun, Apr 01, 2001 at 17:34:59 (GMT)
From: Salam
Email: None
To: G
Subject: New Indian DUO site.
Message:
At last they got it going.

OK, who wants to have a go first?

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Mon, Apr 02, 2001 at 04:23:13 (GMT)
From: janet
Email: None
To: Salam
Subject: try the 'anout india' section for truly
Message:
worthless information not on topic. a teacher would flunk t for essay writing
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Mon, Apr 02, 2001 at 11:46:09 (GMT)
From: G
Email: None
To: janet
Subject: they don't focus on the basics
Message:
They focus on having fancy graphics, but then don't pay attention to spelling, grammar, or having meaningful content intelligently worded. They have gotten too complicated, probably due to Rawat's corrupting influence. It reminds me of poor quality products that are sold by fancy advertisements, presentations at work that initially look glitzy but are devoid of meaning, and people who are all talk and no action. Like Rawat.
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sun, Apr 01, 2001 at 22:59:38 (GMT)
From: G
Email: None
To: Salam
Subject: Amaroo update
Message:
Amaroo slide shows

In the 'Vision' slide show, you can see how much these peoples' time, effort, and money is being wasted. They probably don't realise that Prem Rawat ('Maharaji') personally owns Amaroo via 'Jeep Nominees' owning 'Ivory's Rock Conference Center', which is the company that owns 'Amaroo'.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Mon, Apr 02, 2001 at 15:52:16 (GMT)
From: Jean-Michel
Email: jmkahn@club-internet.fr
To: G
Subject: Jeep Nominees etc
Message:
Do you have copies of documents showing who's behind this screen?

If you do have them, I'd really like to have a page made out of this...

JM

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Mon, Apr 02, 2001 at 17:30:10 (GMT)
From: G
Email: None
To: Jean-Michel
Subject: Jeep Nominees etc
Message:
There are some posts about it, and I think I have copies of some of them. Salam might also have some copies and further info. We might be able to get more info by purchasing corporate records. How to do this is contained in the posts. I've already spent quite a bit of money, so I suggest that we start a fund to purchase corporate records, I've held back because of the costs involved. This applies not just to IRCC, but to other companies. One sticking point is how do you find out who is behind Jeep Nominees. Even if we find the owners of Jeep Nominees, they are owning it on behalf of you know who. The same applies to 'Trustees of Evan Vital Trust' (which owns Elan Vital Ltd.), and the other companies. Rawat's lawyers have made things difficult to prove. But to anyone willing to use their common sense, it's evident that Rawat owns all of it.

Are the archives fully searchable?

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sat, Mar 31, 2001 at 22:37:36 (GMT)
From: Wildflower
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: Denial is not a river in Egypt
Message:
When we imagine that m will apologize or own up or make restitution, or that those who work for him and value his attention and positive regard (real or - mostly- longed for) will do so, we are imagining a transformation of character. How many people in this world do you personally know who have truly transformed their characters? I know very few. How many of those people did it in response to external pressure? For me, the answer is none. What do we really think here, folks? Unless I’m missing something, m is a person in mid life with a 30 year history of substance abuse. He abuses alcohol, drugs, sex, and most importantly other people. His main drug of choice is being adored, and he is totally addicted to it. Isn’t that what I’ve been reading here? When he is confronted by others or merely by life not going his way, he exhibits the classic behavior of any alcoholic/addict: he blames, he denies, he manipulates. What do we really think – that there’s classic silver under here and the proper pressure will take the tarnish off? What we’ll likely get is what we’ve always gotten. There is no reason that I can imagine why this tiger would change his stripes.

Now let’s look at hard-core premies. They’ve got an addiction too – devotion. It’s giving them what they want. They’re satisfied. Try attacking that and you’ll just entrench them more. They’ll avoid you or they’ll attack back. Pretty elementary.

Who’s in a state of flux? Who’s really interested in transformation? The aspirant! Now there’s a person who, for internal reasons, is wanting to change. There’s a person who is open and receptive. If you really want to protect people from m’s influence, target aspirants with the truth. Leaflet outside public events and aspirant events. Publish in the press in publications aspirants might read. Other ideas from creative folks out there?

This business of hoping/wishing/dreaming that m is going to go through some kind of 'reformation' or that he will make an attempt to repair damage is ridiculous! He’s in complete denial that he has caused any damage, and his main motivation is to meet his own internally driven needs. This reminds me of the many years I spent thinking that if I would only behave in a certain way I could get love from family of origin members who were incapable of giving that love. It'll never happen. Get real, you guys!

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sun, Apr 01, 2001 at 11:57:26 (GMT)
From: AJW
Email: None
To: Wildflower
Subject: And you can't make lingerie out of my ears.
Message:
Right on the nose Wildflower.

I agree that all that 'hope for reconciliation' is wishful thinking. There are, however other ways to sort these things out.

My image of Captain Rawat coming to terms with his past, is not one of him sitting down at a table with a bunch of suits, discussing how best he can make up for the mess he's caused.

It's more one of a cop, dragging him by the collar, kicking and squealing, along to a court. His pilot hat with gold spaghetti, bounces into the gutter, another relic lost to humanity. It will be found alongside the holy grail, and Jesus's school reports, at the end of time.

Anth, (no matter how hard you try, you'll never turn one of my ears into silk underwear)

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sun, Apr 01, 2001 at 10:10:48 (GMT)
From: Brian Smith
Email: None
To: Wildflower
Subject: Right on target Wildflower!
Message:
you just pointed out the archilles heel of the cult. In fact the aspirant stage is the only phase where there is still a shred of free will left for an earnest and inquiring individual to 'leave no stone unturned'

It's an interesting and pertainent point you bring up here because I was still bringing people to the cult right up until last Dec when I first discovered the ex-premie site.

One of my best friends who had been an aspirant for 4 years (can you imagine that) was deeply into the whole thing and sitting right on the bubble for being suckered. He had dutifully attended video events for months on end, He had already talked to several instructors, and a few years ago we had traveled to Oakland to see M speak and the Portland event was going to be the coup de gra'ce in his quest to consumate this thing.

To make a long story short, I confessed my culpability for misleading him, I came forward with the newfound information that I had recently discovered and showed him the ex-premie website.

He was shocked, and hugely disappointed, and is still slightly depressed and traumatized. More importantly though he got to see the truth first, at a point in time where he could view the information with an open mind, no blinders on, still in possession of his free will and he concluded the obvious.

Given both sides of the story to consider, my friend concluded that this whole business with m and the cult is pretty phony and flaky. He declined the chance see M when he spoke here in Portland 2 weeks ago as did I. This was not just a casual curiousity seeker either, (4) four years is a lot of time to invest pursuing the knowledge and he stated that he really enjoyed listening to M speak and attending the video events.

He simply had no other information to compare his experience to other than the propaganda that was perpetrated by the cult and he was well on his way to a good brainwashing.

Now after looking at both sides of the coin, he has determined that he cannot continue to listen to or follow Maharaji in good conscience. I simply showed him the site, spoke to him briefly about my position and let him ask the questions. I did nothing else to persuade him to change his mind, I figured after 4 years the decision had to be his own based on his reasons and not mine.

Now he wants to attend the next regional latvian night and meet more exe's one day.

Saved by the bell on this one, had he been indoctrinated any further he may have slipped out of reach and could have wasted many years being confused and abused by the cult and the conman.

I can no longer deal with that responsibility in good conscience. I am also going back to and making ammends to the many people that I involved, particularly my younger sister and ex-brother in law who ended up in deca and moving to Miami. The cult destroyed his and my sisters marriage, or played a big factor in doing so it seems.

What a sorry wake of wreakage that M leaves in his trail and will never acknowledge. The best place to put a stop to this is to never let it start.

Brian: who will head off all aspirants at the pass from now on when possible and direct them to ex-premie.org.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sun, Apr 01, 2001 at 05:50:16 (GMT)
From: Pat Conlon
Email: None
To: Wildflower
Subject: Great post, Wildflower
Message:
I was thinking today: A cult is based on followers adoring their master. If all the premies leave him, it will still be a cult because he is so totally in love with himself.

No, I don't think he will change. He was corrupted by that adoration at too young an age.

But I always leave room for a person to change. My own proud as a peacock alcoholic father changed into a meek sweet teetotaller a few years before he kicked the bucket.

AA might fix Rev Moonbeam Rawat yet.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Mon, Apr 02, 2001 at 13:45:38 (GMT)
From: Wildflower
Email: None
To: Pat Conlon
Subject: Great post, Wildflower
Message:
Wonderful Joke! That one will keep me chuckling for days!
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sun, Apr 01, 2001 at 05:49:12 (GMT)
From: janet
Email: None
To: Wildflower
Subject: b4 i read other's posts back 2 u...
Message:
correct analysis as far as the personal goes. now how about the civil/criminal?
martial arts sensei always teach their students that getting personal emotions involved in one's responses destroys one's effectiveness. one must learn to fight dispassionately without becoming personally nvolved.
we have two lawyers in our ranks. they have training in this.
Maharaji IS an alcohholic. The 12 steps of al-anon apply here in spades. The first counsel one gets, even before one approaches al-anon, is that if the alcoholic won't get help, you can. And John Bradshaw always points out that relationships are like mobiles. If any member of the mobile changes their position, it forces the entire rest of the mobile to shift too, whether they want to or not. The aim of al-anon and all 12 step programs is not to reform anyone else. It is to help you realize serenity and how to achieve it, regardless of what the alcoholic does or does not.
If we follow the AA model, we leave Maharaji to sink or rise on his own decisions. If we follow the intervention/substance abuse model, we corner him in a captive situation from which he can't escape and confront him , and crowd him into rehab. The end justifies the means. He brainswashed us, turnabout is fair play. He can suffer some endless weeks of brainwashing at our hands, being worn down.
If we follow the legal model, we go after him like OJ Simpson in a civil trial, looking for punitive damages and divesting him of his assetts to make full restitutions to those he defrauded and harmed.

you are absolutely right about the premies wanting him to play it to the hilt. If we took away their toy they would be devastated and clamor for him to come back. And he would sit there with his fat-cat grin and shrug and say 'See? they WANT me like this! They won't LET me stop it!'

so public information is the only way to cut off the spread of the phenomenon. but of course, with satellite broadcasting being the next stage of global propagation, we can't get into everyone's livingroom and counter his broadcasts. people with satellite programming who watch dish network will see his broadcasts while idly surfing around , bored and looking for something to stare at, and he knows damned well we won't be able to come on and give the other side of the story.
so the public media is the only way to speak to it.
talk radio might be one means.
the free giveaway papers that publish in many cities, that like to do exposé's on things like this, are another. In the US, I could suggest the papers owned by the New Times of Phoenix, Los Angeles, Miami, and Westword in Denver.

But as Michael Donner has brought up, here in recent postings, we all came to Maharaji despite the rest of the world's pretty much spotting him for what he was. The newspapers never gave him favorable press, no matter how we tried to set it up. Think about Millennium. Think about the Merv Griffin Show. Think about the Detroit Pie. Think about the family break-up. We went ahead and let ourselves be drawn in, despite plenty of news reports in the public light of ridicule, cynicism and scorn.

So the work here goes on. Perhaps there is no pushing the river. Perhaps each person is at their own place in the journey of learning, and it is not possible to change masses of people or even individuals as we would like to. We can only work on ourselves and share with others who want to listen.
Thank god for the internet. No one gets to edit and reframe our own words. We get to speak in our own voices, rather than getting posed in someone else's light when they interview us and then write the article with their own slant or agenda in it.

Let the discussion resume. This is as much as I can see of our options.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sun, Apr 01, 2001 at 03:14:05 (GMT)
From: Gary Epton
Email: None
To: Wildflower
Subject: Denial is not a river in Egypt
Message:
He’s in complete denial that he has caused any damage, and his main motivation is to meet his own internally driven needs And externally driven needs. His main drawing card for future cash flow is the intimation that he is the lard - remove that canard and the ol' bank account will dry out faster than an amaroonian mud puddle.
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sun, Apr 01, 2001 at 02:26:28 (GMT)
From: Helen
Email: None
To: Wildflower
Subject: Denial is not a river in Egypt
Message:
So true, wildflower.
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sun, Apr 01, 2001 at 01:37:59 (GMT)
From: Francesca
Email: None
To: Wildflower
Subject: Good cut to the chase!
Message:
Part of the purpose of this site, I might add, is so that aspirants who are surfing the 'net for information about their prospective 'master' will hear the voices of dissent -- and of course read the Detters stuff, best of forum stuff, the history of the origin religion here, etc.

Some good ideas for folks that might be activists to leaflet at program locations, too. Good and clear run down of the problem, the syptoms, and the likelihood of any change.

I think you're right -- my major changes are always at those major paradigm shifts. Becoming an aspirant was one of them. I quit doing drugs (including hardcore stuff) in 1973 before receiving K and never looked back. But there are many things about myself that I will try to better until the day I transition out of this body.

Love, f

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sat, Mar 31, 2001 at 22:51:08 (GMT)
From: gerry
Email: None
To: Wildflower
Subject: I like this post...
Message:
It has some good ideas in it. I agree and well said, Wildflower.
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sun, Apr 01, 2001 at 01:03:42 (GMT)
From: Roy
Email: zz
To: Wildflower
Subject: thanks for pointing out the obvious ...nt
Message:
z
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sat, Mar 31, 2001 at 23:46:35 (GMT)
From: Jerry
Email: None
To: gerry
Subject: Me too (nt)
Message:
nt
Return to Index -:- Top of Index