Forum V: Archive
Compiled: Thurs, Apr 12, 2001 at 23:29:13 (GMT)
From: Mar 31, 2001 To: Apr 11, 2001 Page: 3 Of: 5


Wildflower -:- Relevant Quote to Ponder -:- Fri, Apr 06, 2001 at 00:31:09 (GMT)
__ Pat Conlon -:- That's exactly why civilized people have democracy -:- Fri, Apr 06, 2001 at 01:22:43 (GMT)
__ __ janet -:- Idi Amin, Papa Doc Duvalier, Hitler, Saddam.. -:- Fri, Apr 06, 2001 at 07:53:24 (GMT)
__ __ __ Selene -:- Idi Amin? where did you get that from? -:- Fri, Apr 06, 2001 at 19:59:39 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Selene -:- oh just remembered -:- Fri, Apr 06, 2001 at 23:36:46 (GMT)
__ Bin Liner -:- I'll keep my Trap shut . (nt) -:- Fri, Apr 06, 2001 at 00:47:40 (GMT)

cq -:- Unethical investments? -:- Thurs, Apr 05, 2001 at 18:27:38 (GMT)
__ G -:- there's a lot of info on these companies ... -:- Fri, Apr 06, 2001 at 15:47:11 (GMT)
__ __ cq -:- there's a lot of info on these companies ... -:- Fri, Apr 06, 2001 at 16:51:25 (GMT)
__ __ __ cq -:- Blimey. They are the same. Some client-base! -:- Fri, Apr 06, 2001 at 17:48:26 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Bin Liner -:- Churn out more toasters you blissful helots.. -:- Sat, Apr 07, 2001 at 02:08:39 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ cq -:- Illegal? I don't think I was implying that, Bin... -:- Sat, Apr 07, 2001 at 12:48:29 (GMT)

Jim -:- Ode to Chairman Hamster -:- Thurs, Apr 05, 2001 at 17:58:11 (GMT)
__ AJW -:- JIm, you're being too hard on this one. -:- Fri, Apr 06, 2001 at 10:10:30 (GMT)
__ Jerry -:- You give up? -:- Thurs, Apr 05, 2001 at 19:36:45 (GMT)
__ __ Jim -:- touche! -:- Thurs, Apr 05, 2001 at 19:48:39 (GMT)
__ __ __ Babs -:- Bhakti Juju -:- Fri, Apr 06, 2001 at 04:48:47 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ cq -:- Projections of divinity -:- Sat, Apr 07, 2001 at 16:53:48 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Katie H -:- Bhakti Juju -:- Fri, Apr 06, 2001 at 17:25:54 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Connie -:- Bhakti Juju -:- Fri, Apr 06, 2001 at 07:35:58 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Lesley -:- Thanks, Babs -:- Fri, Apr 06, 2001 at 07:18:45 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Mercedes -:- but he never did anything for me... -:- Fri, Apr 06, 2001 at 05:29:56 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Pat Conlon -:- Babs, you and I are going to have some good -:- Fri, Apr 06, 2001 at 08:02:49 (GMT)
__ __ __ Jerry -:- touche! -:- Thurs, Apr 05, 2001 at 23:29:11 (GMT)
__ __ __ Lesley -:- Hotwired to the hamster's breadwarmer -:- Thurs, Apr 05, 2001 at 22:38:30 (GMT)
__ __ __ New-Age Redneck -:- stale in the Hamster's breadwarmer... -:- Thurs, Apr 05, 2001 at 20:26:54 (GMT)

Pete -:- A Premie Speaks -:- Thurs, Apr 05, 2001 at 17:55:31 (GMT)
__ such -:- stoned me to my soul,like some good rock-n-roll!nt -:- Fri, Apr 06, 2001 at 20:33:08 (GMT)
__ __ Steve Quint -:- Don't It Gratify When You See It Materialize -:- Fri, Apr 06, 2001 at 21:28:28 (GMT)
__ janet -:- i read all the posts first b4 replying 2 u -:- Fri, Apr 06, 2001 at 12:03:41 (GMT)
__ __ Tim G -:- i read all the posts first b4 replying 2 u -:- Fri, Apr 06, 2001 at 19:17:12 (GMT)
__ __ Pete -:- i read all the posts first b4 replying 2 u -:- Fri, Apr 06, 2001 at 14:18:52 (GMT)
__ __ __ cq -:- before you go Pete, may I share a thought with you -:- Sat, Apr 07, 2001 at 17:10:44 (GMT)
__ AJW -:- Pete, I found another Master for you. -:- Fri, Apr 06, 2001 at 09:38:47 (GMT)
__ __ Pete -:- Pete, I found another Master for you. -:- Fri, Apr 06, 2001 at 10:39:31 (GMT)
__ __ __ AJW -:- Who is Guru Maharaji? -:- Fri, Apr 06, 2001 at 15:55:46 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ ninna -:- Who is Guru Maharaji? -:- Fri, Apr 06, 2001 at 20:21:29 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ AJW -:- Hey ninna -:- Sat, Apr 07, 2001 at 07:51:17 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Jim -:- You, ninna, are a total fucking idiot -:- Sat, Apr 07, 2001 at 02:30:43 (GMT)
__ __ __ salam -:- cool man -:- Fri, Apr 06, 2001 at 12:12:18 (GMT)
__ selene -:- some things that I see in your post -:- Fri, Apr 06, 2001 at 01:03:20 (GMT)
__ Jerry -:- Hello, Pete -:- Thurs, Apr 05, 2001 at 23:48:45 (GMT)
__ bill--Pete, the more you -:- know on the subject, u will understand us...nt -:- Thurs, Apr 05, 2001 at 22:46:22 (GMT)
__ Forum Admin -:- Pete, Could you contact me? -:- Thurs, Apr 05, 2001 at 22:22:31 (GMT)
__ __ Forum Admin -:- Pete, cancel that! -:- Fri, Apr 06, 2001 at 00:31:52 (GMT)
__ __ __ AJW -:- What's up FA? -:- Fri, Apr 06, 2001 at 09:41:44 (GMT)
__ Tim G -:- A Premie Speaks -:- Thurs, Apr 05, 2001 at 21:20:35 (GMT)
__ Patrick Wilson -:- I think we may have met -:- Thurs, Apr 05, 2001 at 20:19:56 (GMT)
__ __ JHB -:- You mean I wasn't the first... -:- Thurs, Apr 05, 2001 at 21:45:50 (GMT)
__ Bin Liner -:- So keep your illusions and good luck .... -:- Thurs, Apr 05, 2001 at 19:36:49 (GMT)
__ Steve Quint -:- An Ex-Premie Speaks -:- Thurs, Apr 05, 2001 at 18:28:27 (GMT)
__ __ Pete -:- An Ex-Premie Speaks -:- Thurs, Apr 05, 2001 at 20:02:33 (GMT)
__ __ __ Steve Quint -:- An Ex-Premie Speaks -:- Sat, Apr 07, 2001 at 01:15:39 (GMT)
__ Gregg -:- Let the Stoning Begin! -:- Thurs, Apr 05, 2001 at 18:13:36 (GMT)
__ __ Pete -:- Let the Stoning Begin! -:- Thurs, Apr 05, 2001 at 18:49:05 (GMT)
__ __ __ Joe -:- Let the Stoning Begin! -:- Thurs, Apr 05, 2001 at 21:55:16 (GMT)
__ Katie H -:- Up to you, if that's what you want out of life -:- Thurs, Apr 05, 2001 at 18:09:56 (GMT)
__ __ pete -:- Up to you, if that's what you want out of life -:- Thurs, Apr 05, 2001 at 18:50:16 (GMT)
__ __ __ Helen -:- you've been candid, so I'll be also -:- Thurs, Apr 05, 2001 at 20:56:42 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Pat Conlon -:- That's it in a nutshell, Helen -:- Thurs, Apr 05, 2001 at 23:27:16 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ New-Age Redneck -:- Oh my gawd.....we're quoting Brittany Spears? -:- Thurs, Apr 05, 2001 at 21:10:55 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Tami Rainbow -:- Oh my gawd.....we're quoting Brittany Spears? -:- Fri, Apr 06, 2001 at 21:22:53 (GMT)
__ __ __ Katie H. -:- Up to you, if that's what you want out of life -:- Thurs, Apr 05, 2001 at 18:57:29 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Pete -:- Up to you, if that's what you want out of life -:- Thurs, Apr 05, 2001 at 19:44:09 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Brian -:- Christ!! It sounds like you ARE a brick -:- Fri, Apr 06, 2001 at 04:42:58 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Pat Conlon -:- Brian, you said a mouthful -:- Fri, Apr 06, 2001 at 08:16:47 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Way -:- Interesting question - 'what's the harm?' -:- Thurs, Apr 05, 2001 at 19:58:50 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Mercedes -:- thanks Way...you said -:- Fri, Apr 06, 2001 at 03:35:35 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Katie H -:- Yes, well said, Way - and Pete... -:- Thurs, Apr 05, 2001 at 20:44:53 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ New-Age Redneck -:- Well said, WAY!!! (nt) -:- Thurs, Apr 05, 2001 at 20:25:05 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Pat Conlon -:- Well said, WAY!!! (nt) -:- Thurs, Apr 05, 2001 at 23:29:26 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Pete -:- Interesting question - 'what's the harm?' -:- Thurs, Apr 05, 2001 at 20:05:42 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Way -:- Interesting question - 'what's the harm?' -:- Thurs, Apr 05, 2001 at 20:11:17 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Pete -:- Patrick,Way and ex-p gang - it wasn't me. -:- Thurs, Apr 05, 2001 at 20:41:01 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Way -:- Patrick,Way and ex-p gang - it wasn't me. -:- Thurs, Apr 05, 2001 at 20:57:09 (GMT)
__ New-Age Redneck -:- A Premie Speaks ???? -:- Thurs, Apr 05, 2001 at 18:09:47 (GMT)
__ __ Pete -:- A Premie Speaks ???? -:- Thurs, Apr 05, 2001 at 19:46:26 (GMT)
__ __ __ New-age Redneck -:- Ok Pete -:- Thurs, Apr 05, 2001 at 20:23:09 (GMT)
__ __ pette -:- A Premie Speaks ???? -:- Thurs, Apr 05, 2001 at 18:51:48 (GMT)
__ __ __ New-Age Redneck -:- You completely missed.... -:- Thurs, Apr 05, 2001 at 19:02:28 (GMT)
__ Way -:- First brick -:- Thurs, Apr 05, 2001 at 18:02:21 (GMT)
__ __ Pete -:- First brick -:- Thurs, Apr 05, 2001 at 19:48:08 (GMT)
__ __ __ AJW -:- You tell him Pete. (nt) -:- Fri, Apr 06, 2001 at 09:44:44 (GMT)
__ __ __ Pat Conlon -:- How can we throw bricks at you, Pete? -:- Thurs, Apr 05, 2001 at 23:36:35 (GMT)
__ Jim -:- All I can say is I'm glad I'm not you -:- Thurs, Apr 05, 2001 at 18:02:03 (GMT)
__ __ Pete -:- All I can say is I'm glad I'm not you -:- Thurs, Apr 05, 2001 at 18:52:43 (GMT)
__ __ __ Pat Conlon -:- Hi, Pete, you're okay in my book -:- Thurs, Apr 05, 2001 at 19:33:05 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Pete -:- Hi, Pete, you're okay in my book -:- Thurs, Apr 05, 2001 at 19:58:48 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Way -:- Information on the killing, etc -:- Thurs, Apr 05, 2001 at 20:07:59 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Pete -:- Information on the killing, etc -:- Thurs, Apr 05, 2001 at 20:13:26 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Pete -:- Comin back atchya. -:- Fri, Apr 06, 2001 at 10:24:05 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Forum Admin -:- Hey, I apologise! -:- Fri, Apr 06, 2001 at 10:55:12 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Pete -:- Apology accepted -:- Fri, Apr 06, 2001 at 11:05:54 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Katie H. -:- Just a note about what the FA said -:- Fri, Apr 06, 2001 at 10:39:24 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Pat Conlon -:- Hi, Pete, I've got to go to work too -:- Thurs, Apr 05, 2001 at 20:46:54 (GMT)

Robert Setton -:- Francesca + Bill on Abi's Dad -:- Thurs, Apr 05, 2001 at 16:41:49 (GMT)
__ Forum Administrator -:- Francesca + Bill on Abi's Dad -:- Fri, Apr 06, 2001 at 01:02:06 (GMT)
__ bill---Hello Robert, -:- Maybe Mike Dettmers would like to comment?...nt -:- Thurs, Apr 05, 2001 at 19:12:39 (GMT)
__ Monmot -:- Too tired to die... -:- Thurs, Apr 05, 2001 at 18:02:07 (GMT)
__ __ JHB -:- Busy doing everything -:- Thurs, Apr 05, 2001 at 18:26:22 (GMT)
__ __ __ Joe -:- Time flies when you'r drunk and stoned -:- Thurs, Apr 05, 2001 at 22:36:43 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Michael Dettmers -:- Robert, bill -- Joe said it all (nt) -:- Fri, Apr 06, 2001 at 11:45:30 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Michael Dettmers -:- Further thoughts (maybe OT) -:- Fri, Apr 06, 2001 at 23:54:12 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ New-Age Redneck -:- Joe, THIS IS A KEEPER!!!! -:- Thurs, Apr 05, 2001 at 22:40:11 (GMT)
__ __ __ Ms. P -:- Being devious is tedious -:- Thurs, Apr 05, 2001 at 21:13:11 (GMT)
__ Jim -:- There are TWO main issues, Robert -:- Thurs, Apr 05, 2001 at 17:31:14 (GMT)
__ Katie H -:- To Robert -:- Thurs, Apr 05, 2001 at 17:07:46 (GMT)
__ __ Robert Setton -:- To Katie -:- Sat, Apr 07, 2001 at 04:37:36 (GMT)
__ __ __ Nigel -:- Fables? -:- Sun, Apr 08, 2001 at 00:27:15 (GMT)
__ __ __ Forum Administrator -:- Re deleted paragraph -:- Sat, Apr 07, 2001 at 16:33:44 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Robert Setton -:- Re deleted paragraph -:- Sat, Apr 07, 2001 at 17:38:06 (GMT)
__ __ __ Katie H -:- Hey Robert -:- Sat, Apr 07, 2001 at 15:57:57 (GMT)

Abi -:- Update: Jagdeo is now a priority -:- Thurs, Apr 05, 2001 at 04:07:00 (GMT)
__ Selene -:- be careful Abi -:- Fri, Apr 06, 2001 at 00:35:27 (GMT)
__ bill---You mean SPIN -:- CONTROL is a priority...you are being HANDLED..nt -:- Thurs, Apr 05, 2001 at 19:18:13 (GMT)
__ Sir Dave -:- We all live in hope -:- Thurs, Apr 05, 2001 at 19:03:52 (GMT)
__ Cynthia -:- Update: Jagdeo is now a priority -:- Thurs, Apr 05, 2001 at 15:12:51 (GMT)
__ __ Zelda -:- Cynthias post is very important -:- Thurs, Apr 05, 2001 at 18:50:00 (GMT)
__ __ __ Joe -:- This is VERY important -:- Thurs, Apr 05, 2001 at 19:34:32 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Susan -:- My experience -:- Thurs, Apr 05, 2001 at 20:07:14 (GMT)
__ Katie H -:- Update: Jagdeo is now a priority -:- Thurs, Apr 05, 2001 at 14:40:01 (GMT)
__ __ Abi -:- Update: Jagdeo is now a priority -:- Thurs, Apr 05, 2001 at 14:47:37 (GMT)
__ __ __ Katie H. -:- Get some rest! and... -:- Thurs, Apr 05, 2001 at 14:54:39 (GMT)
__ sivan -:- Abi, could u tell me if Cathy is an Aussie? -:- Thurs, Apr 05, 2001 at 08:50:19 (GMT)
__ __ Abi -:- Abi, could u tell me if Cathy is an Aussie? -:- Thurs, Apr 05, 2001 at 10:14:18 (GMT)
__ __ __ CW -:- Cathy is an Aussie?No -:- Thurs, Apr 05, 2001 at 12:11:50 (GMT)
__ janet -:- print EV's site and policies. get a lawyer NOW -:- Thurs, Apr 05, 2001 at 06:53:11 (GMT)
__ __ Aaln Fenstermacher -:- print EV's site and policies. get a lawyer NOW -:- Thurs, Apr 05, 2001 at 15:33:07 (GMT)
__ __ __ Katie H. -:- Yes, I agree, Alan -:- Thurs, Apr 05, 2001 at 15:43:26 (GMT)
__ AJW -:- Throwing Kathy. -:- Thurs, Apr 05, 2001 at 06:03:25 (GMT)
__ __ Abi -:- Throwing Kathy. -:- Thurs, Apr 05, 2001 at 07:36:42 (GMT)
__ __ __ AJW -:- Hi Abi -:- Thurs, Apr 05, 2001 at 08:19:19 (GMT)
__ __ CW. -:- Throwing Anth -:- Thurs, Apr 05, 2001 at 06:48:03 (GMT)
__ __ __ Abi -:- Throwing Anth -:- Thurs, Apr 05, 2001 at 08:08:56 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Dr Cat Weasel -:- Throwing Anth -:- Thurs, Apr 05, 2001 at 09:12:30 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ New-Age Redneck -:- You don't seem to mind now.... -:- Thurs, Apr 05, 2001 at 19:40:21 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Dr Coyote -:- secret and powerful connections -:- Thurs, Apr 05, 2001 at 10:13:02 (GMT)
__ __ __ AJW -:- Yeah Cat. -:- Thurs, Apr 05, 2001 at 07:12:28 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Pat Conlon -:- Funny how eDRek's and my post re Catweasel -:- Thurs, Apr 05, 2001 at 08:27:52 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Jim -:- Oh shut up, Patrick! -:- Thurs, Apr 05, 2001 at 17:17:35 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Pat Conlon -:- No I won't shut up. The price of freedom is -:- Thurs, Apr 05, 2001 at 18:12:16 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Forum Admin -:- I deleted one Catweasel Post -:- Thurs, Apr 05, 2001 at 20:24:32 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Jim -:- The price of freedom is credibility -:- Thurs, Apr 05, 2001 at 18:22:09 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Pat Conlon -:- PS Jim, you were being unfair to bring up -:- Thurs, Apr 05, 2001 at 18:16:42 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Jim -:- No, it wasn't unfair -:- Thurs, Apr 05, 2001 at 18:24:31 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Pat Conlon -:- So, I'm wrong again and I apologize -:- Thurs, Apr 05, 2001 at 18:47:45 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Jim -:- So, I'm wrong again and I apologize -:- Thurs, Apr 05, 2001 at 18:52:07 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Pat Conlon -:- Jim, you're insatiable -:- Thurs, Apr 05, 2001 at 19:04:07 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Marianne -:- Yes, Jim, is insatiable-how did you know?-nt -:- Thurs, Apr 05, 2001 at 21:35:14 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Katie H. -:- You CAN'T just delete one post from a thread! -:- Thurs, Apr 05, 2001 at 14:36:47 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Roger eDrek -:- No complaints from me about the CW deletes -:- Thurs, Apr 05, 2001 at 20:10:44 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Catweaesel/CW/Victoria Bi -:- No complaints from me about the CW deletes -:- Fri, Apr 06, 2001 at 03:15:19 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Jim -:- FA, can't we get rid of this piece of shit? -:- Fri, Apr 06, 2001 at 03:28:52 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ CW -:- No-one is going to see the menance in that -:- Fri, Apr 06, 2001 at 05:18:01 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Nigel -:- YES ... as good an example as any to date. -:- Fri, Apr 06, 2001 at 04:09:29 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Forum Admin -:- I did warn you -:- Thurs, Apr 05, 2001 at 10:24:22 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ CW -:- I did warn you -:- Thurs, Apr 05, 2001 at 12:15:56 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Roger eDrek -:- CW? Is that CATWEASEL? FA, QUESTION? -:- Thurs, Apr 05, 2001 at 20:08:38 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Bazza -:- I did warn you -:- Thurs, Apr 05, 2001 at 17:06:12 (GMT)
__ __ __ jabet -:- he may be, and he will be exonerated. and thats -:- Thurs, Apr 05, 2001 at 07:00:16 (GMT)
__ Tonette -:- I think your father should have a lawyer too. nt -:- Thurs, Apr 05, 2001 at 05:01:02 (GMT)
__ Pat Conlon -:- Abi, I'd like to see this resolved for your sake -:- Thurs, Apr 05, 2001 at 04:49:24 (GMT)
__ __ Mercedes -:- I'd like to see this resolved for your sake too NT -:- Thurs, Apr 05, 2001 at 05:05:46 (GMT)
__ Jean-Michel -:- I'm glad to hear this !! -:- Thurs, Apr 05, 2001 at 04:37:13 (GMT)
__ TD -:- I don't think Cathy has behaved at all decently... -:- Thurs, Apr 05, 2001 at 04:35:51 (GMT)
__ __ Francesca -:- Cathy was pressured / auto brainwashing -:- Thurs, Apr 05, 2001 at 05:12:51 (GMT)
__ __ __ Pat Conlon -:- Powerful analysis, Francesca -:- Thurs, Apr 05, 2001 at 07:32:12 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Katie Darling -:- Powerful analysis, Francesca, and it's a spell! -:- Thurs, Apr 05, 2001 at 22:20:09 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Pat Conlon -:- Katie D, you're story reminded me of one -:- Fri, Apr 06, 2001 at 01:12:07 (GMT)
__ __ __ Abi -:- Still hope to meet Maharaji though -:- Thurs, Apr 05, 2001 at 05:52:36 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Francesca -:- Thanks for keeping us informed - love f n/t -:- Fri, Apr 06, 2001 at 22:32:38 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ janet -:- my guess is you will not. probly well send -:- Thurs, Apr 05, 2001 at 07:11:18 (GMT)


Date: Fri, Apr 06, 2001 at 00:31:09 (GMT)
From: Wildflower
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: Relevant Quote to Ponder
Message:
'The most dangerous man in the world is the contemplative who is guided by nobody. He trusts his own visions. He obeys the attractions of an inner voice, but will not listen to other men. He identifies the will of God with his own heart…And if the sheer force of his own self-confidence communicates itself to other people and gives them the impression that he really is a saint, such a man can wreck a whole city or a religious order or even a nation. The world is covered with scars that have been left in its flesh by visionaries like these.' - Thomas Merton

Sound like anyone you might know?

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Date: Fri, Apr 06, 2001 at 01:22:43 (GMT)
From: Pat Conlon
Email: None
To: Wildflower
Subject: That's exactly why civilized people have democracy
Message:
Only primitive feudalistic societies let megalomaniacs get away with their narcissism unchallenged.
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Date: Fri, Apr 06, 2001 at 07:53:24 (GMT)
From: janet
Email: None
To: Pat Conlon
Subject: Idi Amin, Papa Doc Duvalier, Hitler, Saddam..
Message:
Stalin, anyone care to add to the list?
the prophet muhammed?
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Date: Fri, Apr 06, 2001 at 19:59:39 (GMT)
From: Selene
Email: None
To: janet
Subject: Idi Amin? where did you get that from?
Message:
I'm lost.
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Date: Fri, Apr 06, 2001 at 23:36:46 (GMT)
From: Selene
Email: None
To: Selene
Subject: oh just remembered
Message:
I think I'm dumbing down for some reason. I should go back to M.
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Date: Fri, Apr 06, 2001 at 00:47:40 (GMT)
From: Bin Liner
Email: None
To: Wildflower
Subject: I'll keep my Trap shut . (nt)
Message:
shhh
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Date: Thurs, Apr 05, 2001 at 18:27:38 (GMT)
From: cq
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: Unethical investments?
Message:

Something Jim Sander mentioned in his eloquent, heart-felt and ultimately very clear letter to EV just got me thinking.

Jim said something along the lines of how it could have an adverse effect on his standing in the community, and at work, if people got to know about his involvement with the Maha.

It's just occurred to me -

1. Rawat is a director of quite a few premie businesses, isn't he?

2. Presumably a sizeable proportion of his income is derived from these?

3. Companies have to declare the names of their directors, don't they?

I don't know how much trouble it would be to find out the names of these companies, but if we could, then it should also be possible to discover who their main clients are.

And I wonder if it would be of interest to those clients to know just who is profiting from their commerce? i.e. Rawat, a man who I, for one, would not choose to do business with, or even be associated with.

Who knows - perhaps those clients might even be grateful for being informed of the simple facts.

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Date: Fri, Apr 06, 2001 at 15:47:11 (GMT)
From: G
Email: None
To: cq
Subject: there's a lot of info on these companies ...
Message:
... in the archives and on this site.
Deltek, Dunrite, International Conference Management,
and Amtext are some of the companies.

On thing though, don't count on Rawat being
a director, I doubt he's a director of any
of them, instead he's a hidden owner of all
or part of the business. Other people own
his interest in the company on behalf of him;
they are 'nominees', 'trustees', etc. Even so,
if someone uses a little common sense, it's
easy for them to see he's involved.

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Date: Fri, Apr 06, 2001 at 16:51:25 (GMT)
From: cq
Email: None
To: G
Subject: there's a lot of info on these companies ...
Message:
Thanks for the tip, G

I know you've been busy making a lot of this info available, but I was never too sure how it could be put to use. Maybe now I see!

BTW, is Dunrite Productions part of the same group as these guys: http://www.dunritegroup.com/experience.htm, who boast among their clients the following:

Compaq, NEC, Hewlett Packard, Andersen Consulting, Panasonic, McGraw Hill, Citibank, British Airways, Texas Instruments, Dell, Fiat, Mobil ... and a few more to boot.

If so, I wonder what percentage of the profits Rawat manages to take?

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Date: Fri, Apr 06, 2001 at 17:48:26 (GMT)
From: cq
Email: None
To: self, G and all
Subject: Blimey. They are the same. Some client-base!
Message:

One of the Dunrite guys (Jossi Fresco) even goes as far as putting a link to the Maha's site on his own!

And he's got some pretty big-name clients too:

IBM, Royal Mail, Microsoft, Toshiba, Lotus, Digital, Epson, BT ...

hmmmmm .....

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Date: Sat, Apr 07, 2001 at 02:08:39 (GMT)
From: Bin Liner
Email: None
To: cq
Subject: Churn out more toasters you blissful helots..
Message:
..& don't argue about the minimum wage .

I think Radhasoami influenced bullshitters of all persuasions ( not just dlm/ev ) are active & influential in the corporate world .

Shotguns , billy-clubs , eviction , & the threat of starvation are frowned on nowadays , so your average tycoon is only left with mind control as a means to increase productivity .

Having said that ,J . Fresco seems to be no more than a successful website designer.

If he wants to subsidise Rawat , so be it : deluded he may be , but that's in the eye of the beholder .

I can't see anything illegal in what they are doing .

Stupid , yes .

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Date: Sat, Apr 07, 2001 at 12:48:29 (GMT)
From: cq
Email: None
To: Bin Liner
Subject: Illegal? I don't think I was implying that, Bin...
Message:
the issue's about whether it's ethical to trade with a company that funds that confidence-trickster, Mr Rawat.

Remember the outcry that was unleashed in '99 when it was revealed that the Bank of Scotland was going to do business with Pat Robertson, the anti-gay evangelist? The bank lost a LOT of customers over that issue. The implications for companies such as the ones who trade with Dunrite are similar, I think (though on a much smaller scale).

I know Robertson and Rawat have very different messages, and both have their supporters and detractors, but at the end of the day, they both promote ideas which (though very different) are also highly suspect for many people. It remains to be seen whether the scandals surrounding Rawat are of a serious enough nature to cause embarrasment to companies who might not be too happy to be seen to support him, however directly or indirectly.

What it boils down to is this: are you happy that, when you purchase (for instance) a ticket for a British Airways flight, or a Dell computer - or, for heavens sake, even make a phone call on British Telecom, then some of you're money is (however small an amount I don't know, but it's the principle) - some of your cash is going to end up in the Maha's pockets.

A worrying thought.

As yet, we only have circumstantial evidence that Rawat profits from Dunrite (and other premie-run/owned companies), and it would have to be proven before I'd want to associate myself with a campaign to boycott any other company that trades with him. But it's a scenario that isn't too hard to envisage - if the evidence was watertight.

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Date: Thurs, Apr 05, 2001 at 17:58:11 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: Ode to Chairman Hamster
Message:
Here's the latest crying-through-my-tears bullshit from ELK:

A road of longing...

The distance between
You and me
Is a road of longing.

How wonderful you are
Watering my thirsty fields.

You are always
Seeking for me
Even when I roam
In the widest desert.

Will I ever be
Like that fire
Seeking only the core?

When I listen to you
I find myself in a beautiful garden
I cannot stop crying
From within me.

Igal Harari
Tel Aviv, Israel

Notice how she or he's not just crying but 'crying from within me'.

I give up.

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Date: Fri, Apr 06, 2001 at 10:10:30 (GMT)
From: AJW
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: JIm, you're being too hard on this one.
Message:
'Crying from the outside', now there's an interesting concept.

I think you're being too hard on this one Jim. Igal already admits the distance from the Captain is a long road- or was it a longing road- whatever.

And their relationship is described as the Captain wandering around a desert, looking for Igal, who must be around here somewhere. (Not really what you'd call 'close', 'loving' or even 'deep and meaningful'.

I got a bit lost with the fire seeking the core. Maybe it lost something in translation.

And of course, as the last verse indicates, it ends in tears.

So, I think old Igal is showing a bit more insight than you got at the first pass Jim.

Anth of the Poetry Conventicle

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Date: Thurs, Apr 05, 2001 at 19:36:45 (GMT)
From: Jerry
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: You give up?
Message:
I doubt it. But you know what the funny thing about these poems are? I don't know if they're talking about Maharaji or that 'place within'. Now let me ask you something Jim, based on these lines:

When I listen to you
I find myself in a beautiful garden
I cannot stop crying
From within me.

Do you think Igal is talking about a rich, personal experience he/she is having that's worth having, or do you think Igal is just saying shit that sounds good but isn't really happenning at all? You know, do you think Igal is bullshitting? Because I've got room for doubt in my mind that something is happenning to Igal that's enriching his life.

When I was a premie, I never, ever experienced anything like Igal is. I just hoped someday I would. I mean, what's wrong with finding yourself in a beautiful garden? I like gardens. So, the point I'm trying to make is if these people are in a space they're happy with, genuinely happy with (and who are we to say they're not?), why not just leave them the fuck alone?

The only premies I care about are the ones who are living on a prayer, who are caught up in the belief that Maharaji is their only hope, even though they've got no good reason, from their experience with him, that this is so. People like Igal, If he's happy, fine, fuck him is what I say.

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Date: Thurs, Apr 05, 2001 at 19:48:39 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Jerry
Subject: touche!
Message:
Jer,

I have to say that once or twice, as a premie, I did get so worked up, so Kabir'd, if you will, that my emotions went haywire. Kabir's fantasyland is enticing. Remember that one about the magical swing inside? I think I was working as an accounts receivable clerk for Canadian Admiral Corporation when I first read that. You get the picture.

But yeah, I do think that Igal's full of shit. They all are. We got so torqued up because we were in a major pressure cooker that just doesn't exist for these Pwk's anymore. It's more like they're just getting stale in the Hamster's breadwarmer. It's not intense enough for the real, good ol' fashioned mindfuck we used to enjoy. Mind you, they still love that Kabir shit, don't they? Can't put it down.

Can you imagine if Maharaji turned them on the Hardy Boys instead?

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Date: Fri, Apr 06, 2001 at 04:48:47 (GMT)
From: Babs
Email: ralphie@ralphiescafe.com
To: Jim
Subject: Bhakti Juju
Message:
I think I am most bothered by the lameness of today's premie poetry. I prefer the good ol' fashioned mindfucked stuff.

Back in the day, I used to write a lot of devotional drek based on my darshan experiences. I would read it aloud occasionally at satsang, and premies always lapped it up. Told me it was 'real poetry,' all except Charles Cameron, who labeled it 'effusive prose.'

Maybe nobody wants to remember how far off the deep end we went in terms of devotion to Maharaji when we actually believed him to be God-in-a-Bod. I am just now coming out of my twenty-year deep dark embarrassment and denial stage, and starting to give myself credit for creating those moments of bliss myself, by my own effort, rather than shaming myself for being so duped.

So here it is, from the Journals of Babs, from the heart of a gopi, unadulterated Bhakti Juju.
Lurking gopis take note: it is possible to feel this way, then walk away, and continue living.
Yes, even to continue 'enjoyinglife.'
There is life after maharajism.

I've been looking at You today
and tears-of-joy tracks still streak my face
and Your words of love still echo in my heart:
'Darshan is not a physical experience,'
You said, 'So it doesn't have to end.'

And I understand that the feeling I felt
when my heart wrapped around Your feet
wasn't coming from physical heart or feet
but from that place so deep inside.

The tunnel arch, flower-outlined and flower-garlanded,
looked like a bridal arch and I felt like His bride.
I felt like I had never been with Him before.
I felt like a virgin being brought before her husband-to-be,
the King of Kings, in disbelieving joy and true humility,
in gratitude and wonder and nervousness,
and the dawning of understanding anf the ache of desire.

And He smiled, the gentlest, the softest, the slowest,
the most tender, the most real of smiles.
And I wanted to love Him, I ached to love Him;
I was desperately aching for Him to know that I loved Him.
I didn't want Him to see my physical form at all;
I wanted my love to be so strong that He could sense me
drawing nearer and nearer to Him as a warmly glowing sphere
of energy and light; and that's what He was to me.
He was pure Love and I was nothing but His Love
and we were getting closer and closer and closer...

I smiled at Him, not because I wanted to smile,
or because I tried to smile to make Him smile,
but because I couldn't help smiling.
And then the smile stopped,
because the feeling was greater than the smile could say.

I saw that the sister in front of me was kissing His feet,
and I felt the love that she was feeling,
and it was so much love that it knocked something loose in me,
some last little separation, some limitation of love.
At the point where I felt I couldn't possibly feel more love,
I saw her kissing His feet and I felt even more love.
Then she was gone and there was nothing - nothing -
between me and Maharaj Ji.
There was no one even near me and Maharaj Ji.
And there was no hurry.

It was like that moment on stage
when all the lights are on you
and all the eyes are on you
and the silence is charged
with the energy of the very-present-moment,
and there is such a focus, such a power,
that all the nervousness goes flying away...

Up until the moment she stepped away from His feet,
my fingertips had been pressed tightly together
and the energy of anticipation
had been flowing through my body like an electric current.
I was trembling - no, vibrating - all over,
and I knew Maharaj Ji could see my hands
pushing against each other;
I wanted Him to know I loved Him so much
that I almost looked Him full in the face
and said it right out loud - but it wasn't necessary
because my hands were already saying it,
and my eyes and my heart,
and I knew that He knew.

It was my time to be alone with Him, and the shaking fell off,
and I was my real self, born new, His lover,
and I looked at His face all the way to His feet,
and then I looked at His feet, and I kissed His foot, gently;
I felt something beyond words, as though my heart became big, bigger than my body, and enclosed His feet,
as if my spiritual heart embraced His spiritual feet
while my physical lips touched His physical feet.
And then I whispered, 'I love You,'
too softly for His physical ears to hear,
and left without looking up or back, still bowing.'

Phew!

I assure you I actually felt that way, but I felt that way because I believed, not because he ever did anything for me. Ever. I did a lot for him, but he never did anything for me or for anybody I ever knew.

Babs the effusive

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Date: Sat, Apr 07, 2001 at 16:53:48 (GMT)
From: cq
Email: None
To: Babs
Subject: Projections of divinity
Message:
Truly passionate, beautiful poem there, Babs.
Cameron's professional envy was justified (though meanly expressed).

How strange to think that so many people's aspiriations toward the divine were focused on one small human being who had the audacity/chutzpah/greed to take on all that adoration.

If there was a God, I wonder how Rawat would answer to Her/Him.

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Date: Fri, Apr 06, 2001 at 17:25:54 (GMT)
From: Katie H
Email: None
To: Babs
Subject: Bhakti Juju
Message:
Hey Babs -
They wouldn't print your stuff on ELK - it HAS to be bland and lame to get on there.

BTW, I thought it was a good poem, although it's hard to get beyond the subject matter :). Charles Cameron must have been jealous, because you really can write.

Take care,
Katie

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Date: Fri, Apr 06, 2001 at 07:35:58 (GMT)
From: Connie
Email: None
To: Babs
Subject: Bhakti Juju
Message:
Ye gods Bab

That is something I could have written, back then, and I have to blushingly admit it, not so long ago - of course I would have kept it hidden. Expressing oneself so blatantly is not done today, thus resulting in, as you so aptly put it, the lameness that is called poetry today.

Give me raw passion any day over manicured rolling hills!

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Date: Fri, Apr 06, 2001 at 07:18:45 (GMT)
From: Lesley
Email: None
To: Babs
Subject: Thanks, Babs
Message:
That's gutsy, and puts the human face on it, thought the poetry was good! Love Lesley
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Date: Fri, Apr 06, 2001 at 05:29:56 (GMT)
From: Mercedes
Email: None
To: Babs
Subject: but he never did anything for me...
Message:
or anybody else I knew...
How true Babs. I can relate to the inhebriation I also felt during darshan and it was all in me. I made it up with his help because he promoted and sort of urged that drunkenness.
Well I may be in the throws of depression today and I am so glad to be out at the same time.
It is good to be reminded that he is a no good dude.
Mercedes
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Date: Fri, Apr 06, 2001 at 08:02:49 (GMT)
From: Pat Conlon
Email: None
To: Babs
Subject: Babs, you and I are going to have some good
Message:
times together when you come out in summer. You are a darling. I think you just posted a poem that could have been written by a lot of us gopis.

Especially thank you for saying: ''I assure you I actually felt that way, but I felt that way because I believed, not because he ever did anything for me. Ever. I did a lot for him, but he never did anything for me or for anybody I ever knew.''

I lived for darshan for ten years of my life, seldom stayed in a job for longer than a year, was always broke etc. I saw and felt things that I could not begin to describe and attributed it all to him just as I had prior to that attributed tripping to acid. Meanwhile it was all inside me.

It was very difficult considering that I never really liked him as a man or a friend or even as a human being. He always gave me the creeps. I was frightened of him and never completely trusted him. And I often felt unworthy of darshan and would burst into tears because he seemed to sense it and become stiff and uncomfortable.

The only time I ''connected'' with him in darshan was at Holi in Marbella in 77 (when he put his show on in a bullring.) I was the last person to go through darshan line because I ahd been having sex with an ex-lover after Holi and had forgotten about it. I heard someone yelling ''last chance'' so I ran in my dye stained Holi ''whites'' to the tent smelling of come and sweat and ran in feeling very carefree and gay. He blushed and lowered his eyelashes like a geisha girl and try to suppress a smile. From then on I was his. God, I'm was an easy lay.

Well, I used to be. I'm more staid now. If all those laughing buddhas and saddhus etc have the truth then I'll have to postpone it until my second childhood. Right now I have a living to earn not having been left any legacies.

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Date: Thurs, Apr 05, 2001 at 23:29:11 (GMT)
From: Jerry
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: touche!
Message:
Jim,

If Maharaji turned them onto the Hardy Boys, premies would read every book and swear the wisdom of the cosmos, or as our friend, Turner, so eloquently put it, 'existence in it's full detail' was between the covers.

I never did like Kabir. But I did make it a point to get a copy of a book of his poems since Maharaji liked him so much. Master this, master that is all it was about. No wonder Maharaji loves him. But, personally, I think premies would get a lot more from reading Harry Potter. Too bad Maharaji isn't recommending him.

About Igal being full of shit, I think only Igal knows for sure. But yeah, I can see where he might just be all Kabir'd up. I'm just a little hesitant to say so because I'm reluctant to say where other people are at when they're talking about what's going on inside of them where I can't see. The only thing I have to say to Igal is 'If you say so, pal. Now kindly take it somewhere else, thank you'.

But, er, I don't think that's going to happen. You see, we've got this fella in our camp who keeps dragging that shit over from theirs' :)

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Date: Thurs, Apr 05, 2001 at 22:38:30 (GMT)
From: Lesley
Email: None
To: Jim and Jerry
Subject: Hotwired to the hamster's breadwarmer
Message:
I'm not so sure that the 'A grade mindfuck' is not still kicking, I certainly re-experienced it at Amaroo in 97, and I was not the only one. The 'Lord of Love' is still strutting his stuff there, and people are giving their lives to him as devoutly as any ashram or mahatma premie did in the seventies.

We are all getting older now, and really need to grow up. And when I read a poem like that, it really bothers me to think of how bad it can get for a person lost in such an all embracing fantasy.

Just because Igal thinks he/she is getting something wonderful out of it, doesn't mean he/she isn't hurting too, as is evidenced by 'the longing'.

I saw a program on fetishist sex some time ago. Honestly, watching those people beating and humiliating eachother, pleasurably writhing, painfully embracing deep fantasies, confident enough to go public with it, even, sure that they were getting the 'good stuff' others were afraid to seek........well the bruises sure looked real!

Such is the power of emotional manipulation. The rotted hamster is still playing with the hearts of his premies.

Best Regards, Lesley

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Date: Thurs, Apr 05, 2001 at 20:26:54 (GMT)
From: New-Age Redneck
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: stale in the Hamster's breadwarmer...
Message:
Jim, that is CLASSIC! :-)
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Date: Thurs, Apr 05, 2001 at 17:55:31 (GMT)
From: Pete
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: A Premie Speaks
Message:
Greetings,
I was told by friends not to go near the place as everyone would come down on me like a ton of bricks, but what the hell. I only wanted to give another perspective on the premie world.
I've had knowledge for nearly 20 years although never went in an ashram or hung out with many other premies, except for the friends I had before getting knowledge. These friends and I were never very conventional and did not go to many official functions, satsangs etc. but just enjoyed meditating when we felt the need and getting together to talk about what we were doing with out lives and how we could get more out of it, improve ourselves etc.. Also we had, and still have, what I think is a healthy disregard for authority - including GM's. I, and I think most of my friends, never got into the devotional stuff, giving money ( we never had any) or bowing down or the rest of the mystic mumbo jumbo. I saw the whole thing as just a way of chilling out and sort of getting high without the drugs ( although without having to give up the occasional smoke). I guess we were like the kids at the back of the class - sort of glad to be in school but not wanting to get too involved in anything that required commitment or hard work.The thing is I always took the lord of the Universe thing with a pinch of salt and regarded it as part of GM's culture that I could live without.
Perhaps it is all a fantasy, but why is everyone on this site so against that. There aint to many things in this grim world that are both fun and fantasy, and if it turns you on, then why not?
There is no explaining Faith or Love or Emotion or just feeling that there is a greater good ( and its especially nice to feel part of that - even if, as you lot believe, that greater good is bad).
I have never been close to Maharaji, but from what I have read here over the last month, he sounds like a much kewler guy than I thought. He likes a drink and a smoke - the devil he is. Well if there's a sin in that I might as well give up. And these accusations about his initiators etc., although they may well be true, do not mean that he has plotted to abuse, kill etc. but that some of his followers have done these terrible deeds. In my experience, there are a good proportion of premies who are totally out to lunch - some of them should be in a padded cell.
So the point is, we enjoy practising knowledge, and I have not been convinced that GM is a conniving manipulator only out for what he can get. I know he and his family like the good life, who wouldn't, but he's not got it because of any of my donations and I can never remember him demanding money with menaces. If he is wrong in his preaching then so be it, but before I give it up I'd like to see something better.
Whatever gets you through the night - and it only gets worse as you get older. I'm certainly too old now to start again trying to find something that gives me the courage to face another day in this violent, shallow world.
I'm ducking down behind a wall now before you start stoning me.
Pete Marshall
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Date: Fri, Apr 06, 2001 at 20:33:08 (GMT)
From: such
Email: None
To: Pete
Subject: stoned me to my soul,like some good rock-n-roll!nt
Message:
nt
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Date: Fri, Apr 06, 2001 at 21:28:28 (GMT)
From: Steve Quint
Email: the_avenger55@hotmail.com
To: such
Subject: Don't It Gratify When You See It Materialize
Message:
Right in front of your eyes
That surprise

And they'll lay you down low and easy

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Date: Fri, Apr 06, 2001 at 12:03:41 (GMT)
From: janet
Email: None
To: Pete
Subject: i read all the posts first b4 replying 2 u
Message:
pete--
a couple of things emerge from reading everything posted to this thread.
Pete-- you say you have had knowledge for 20 years. i am wondering how old you are. they generally stopped giving knowledge to children around 1980 and set a minimal age at 18, so you would be at minimum, 38 or so?
you mention 'working on making yourself look 10 years younger before you go out'. at another point you mention that you are in the entertainment 'industry' and have a gig to go to work at. this leads me to deduce you might be a performer, maybe a rock guitarist in a band, that just plays around in bars and isnt known beyond your local region. if you were simply a roadie or a sound man, you wouldn't worry about how old you looked when you went to work. hence, you must be one of the ones who is in the public eye, and appearance matters in your line of work. to you.
you speak of seeing all the misery, violence , shallowness and suffering in the world, and feeling that one person can't make a difference. so you play your music, drink with your mates, toke a few, have a few laughs, and use the techniques to pull back out of the pain and get some distance from it.
the life of a rocker can be dangerous indeed. overdose is an everpresent possibility. live fast, die young. music is an emotional commitment, and probably musicians feel things and live through their feelings more immediately than do most folks. seeing as how they put it foremost to make their living and their identity, its quite a declaration of how one feels about being here in the world.

i, too, felt overwhelmed at all the suffering in the world, when i came to maharaji at age 20. i didnt see how i, by myself, could make any difference. the offer to hop into a movement that was global and promised world peace in my lifetime, throwing my lot in with millions of others, in every country, gave me the hope of the True Believer. Together we would do what me by myself could not.

For as long as it was just me, single, unattached, with no responsibilities to anyone, it worked. Kind of. But I noticed how crappy and dishonest it felt when i would get 'assigned' to go to out of the way, godforsaken situations as a convenient sop. I endured it for a short while and then found a way to get back in the heart of the action. New York city. Denver. Los Angeles. Boston. Miami. If i found myself stranded in the far reaches, I always managed to get back to some major hub, so i could feel i was part of what i joined for.
as I said, it worked as long as I was just by myself.
Surprise surprise. What a difference a day makes. I found myself pregnant in the first month of 1978, and overnight, had the scales ripped from my eyes. Actually, it started just before that. I started getting disability checks for depression, and suddenly all the doors shut in my face. Go get a place. Quit mooching off us. No room for you, here. Get on down the road! Quite a shock. No more happy , poor, communal sadhus. You can pay your own way-- so go do it, and leave us alone! We never liked you, anyway.
So first the outcast. Then conception. Then all these premies i had believed were my true friends, all at once were giving me the most offensive advice. I was horrified. I had nightmares of people clawing their way up a hill to tear the baby out of my hands and shred it alive, and I, slashing them to bits with a long sword, only to see them roll down the hill and spring up intact, and come at me again.
It stripped me of my illusions that i thought these were my friends. It repelled and alienated me. these were not my friends--these were monsters!
As I slowly came to terms with the reality that I was going to have a baby, and I resolved to go through with it, I began to look for a way to get myself situated, so that I could have a home and roots, to settle in and grow a child, fat and happy and amazed.
It was not to be. The premie world ripped me away from it again and again. The child's father resented me. He fought my choices at every turn. Without consulting me, he spent the rent on planefare to Holi and got us stranded in Miami, so we lost our stuff back in Denver. He put Maharaji first, himself second and the baby and me, last. He dragged us, town by town from one person's floor to another, taking odd jobs to survive. My checks were piling up 1500 miles away where I couldn't get them, while we went through this. He finally got enough to get himself on a bus, and he left me in florida, and he went back to Denver alone. He mailed me my checks from there and I cashed them to follow him back, expecting to recover a home and resume my nesting in. Not to be. I no sooner get back than i find we are homeless, and he wants to drive back to the east coast to show me to mom and dad before i start to show. So I spent 4 days in a bus from florida to Denver and 5 days in a car from denver to connecticut. His folks catch on at once and kick us out. More sleeping on people's floors while I get still bigger. He resents and blames me for him missing guru puja in Tucson. Pardon me, but the phone feed was irrelevant. There is a human being coming, and I have no home to give them yet. Can we please focus on the immediate priority? This is your kid we are talking about.
I finally made a move to get back to Denver without him, at my 8th month. He rejoined me, but not until he saw maharaji in atlantic city first. By the time we got another apartment, The baby was due anytime.
It came 4 weeks later.And 4 weeks after that, he spent the rent again-- on planefare to make us go to kissimmee. I wasn't even finished bleeding yet.
He stranded me on the campgrounds in the tent at the festival's end. Got a ride home and left me with the baby in the freezing mud and rain.
I got another taste of the famous premie uncaring. When I went and knocked on the doors of the heated trailers where the office personnel were, begging to please bring the baby inside to undress and change his diapers, I was sternly turned away. The child was 4 weeks old! They were telling me that I had to strip and bathe him outdoors with cold water in 35° weather in the tent at night! While they sat around pretending to be important in heated trailers, doing nothing!
By turns, I finally was taken north to washington DC, and again north, to the same grandparents house who threw us out that summer. I convinced grandpa to pay for a planefare to get me home to Denver. Meanwhile I slept on the bare floor of a premie house that was closing and vacating their lease, the baby on the hard floor beside me.
in mid january i finally walked back into our apartment with the baby in my arms, now 12 weeks old, and dad greeted us without getting up from his desk, as if i had just popped down to the corner store for diapers 10 minutes ago.
I overturned his desk on top of him with one hand, wordless, and fire flashing from my eyes.
Pete--have you sired any kids? Do you know where they are? Do they know you? Do you take care of them? Do they matter in life to you? Do you want to see that they have what they ought to, in life?
If the answer is no--would you? If you found out you had one coming?

Until I got pregnant, I didnt have to worry about anyone but myself. But when my child came into my life, suddenly it mattered, where i had to sleep, and what i had to eat, and whether the surroundings were clean, or warm enough, or undisturbed, and going to last. You can't grow something if you're going to keep uprooting it. Something awakens in you that you never knew lived in you. It ignites you to do things for that child that you never cared about for just yourself. I recommend it.

Fool that I was, I stayed with the guy. I thought together we could do more, and i thought since it was as much his as it was mine, he would see it likewise.
No.
Maharji first, him next, us distant last.
in april he spent the rent on planefare to holi again. and stranded us in florida again. permanently.
was I stupid? too patient? trying to surrender?
Or was I the realist, trying in vain to make a cult member wake up? And wasting my own life, and my son's, in the process?
he dragged me through a series of seedy apartments on the south beach and inland. he always had a nice place, but we weren't welcome there. his premie housemates 'didn't want the baby disturbing their vibe.'
Late one night, he drove out to the empty house he'd found for us to stay in, home from DECA, and when I voiced my annoyance, he slugged me in the midsection. I went down like a sack, unable to rise. My little son toddled in and saw me, gasping on the floor, and i whispered to him to go get my pillow and blanket
and cover me. He ran off on his chubby little legs and brought them back, covered me, then sat down and petted my head solicitously, while dad stalked around the empty rooms, pacing and huffing, feeling self righteous about what he had done.
He did not sleep in the house with us. He had important work to do at DECA in the drafting room, you see. Couldnt have any disturbances when he was home. So off he drove, to his nice house, leaving us there to crawl into the bedroom and reach the matress on the floor, as best we could. My liver hurt for months after that.
I woke one morning to find a construction foreman standing over me, and felt the house moving! It had been sold and was being trailered out to another town and the jacks were lifting it up, right then! I bolted awake and ran cross the street to a phone and called dad. He hastily arranged for some premies to come with a truck, and by sunset we had all my stuff, the baby and a newborn kitten in the vehicle, and were driven to another place. We stayed in a trailer in their yard, and pooped in the dirt after dark. it rained and the roof leaked, waking us up in a puddle at 3 am.
He found us another house to stay in, where the premies let us sleep on the livingroom couch. Everyone else had their own room.
Then he found us a real house, by DECA and the airport. It could have been great. But he brought home a spacy, busty girl, supposedly to be my 'mother's helper', but was boning her when i went out to grocery shop or took the baby to the lake to see the ducks. When i found out and yelled at him, he responded by throttling me on the bed, and tried to choke me with a pillow. That was the day I left him. I called the police and went next door, and arranged to go north to Gainesville with the baby and make a life without him.
In gainesville things got rough.The first landlord reneged on the lease the next morning, and i had to get a law student at the college to intercede for me to stay. he still evicted me, two months later. At the second place, the woman changed her mind weeks after i settled in, and asked me to vacate again( a premie woman with 3 kids.) At the hall, the security guy was an old friend of dad's who had twice left his own wife and 3 kids, to shack around, but he felt superior enough to threaten to report me to welfare for bringing my kid to satsang and letting him play without me in the childcare room, while i stood out in the hall to listen to satsang.
I was beginning to hate premies with a passion.
A premie mother i'd known in L A asked to stay with us to escape her egotistical boyfriend and we talked about renting a house for us and our kids. She reneged and went back to him, leaving me stranded.
Finally in desperation I called my family.
My dad came and got us, took us back to his million dollar home in a gated community--and then tricked me into a mental hospital, and took legal custody of my son, while i was drugged and locked up and could do nothing to stop him.
I didnt see my son for years.
the boy's dad came to see us, and I escaped by begging him to take me with him back to florida. guru puja was surreal that summer. my sister paid to fly me out to L A that fall, and took me to the first ex-premie i ever met. she wanted him to deprogram me, but so recently out of the hospital, I didnt want my head rearranged any further. I left on a bus for denver.Once there, my father refused to forward my checks, so i had to go back down to his house to retrieve them. premies took me with them to miami for dec 10th, and the kid's dad put me right back on a bus to denver, anxious to be rid of me.
and i planted myself in denver for the next ten years, in the same apartment, refusing to be moved by anything or anyone. I got a job. I got therapy. I went thru 3 psychiatrists, trying to get myself back. I joined a 12 step group for children of alcoholics. I dated a semi-expremie man for 6 years and with him, we went through a domestic violence arrest and court ordered counseling. I grew up. I got credit cards. I built a stable rental history. I helped get a mayor elected and participated in city government. And maharaji and the premies became more and more false, distant, supercilious and uncaring, as i met passionately involved people. I joined greenpeace. I wrote letters for amnesty international. I subscribed to TIME and to OMNI and rediscovered my brain.
I joined a metaphysics school. I ventured into other spiritual practices and the sky did not fall. hell did not come and get me. i was hired at the renaissance faire to be a crystal psychic when i found out i had the ability. I tried channelling and had a direct encounter with angels, christ, various famous and not famous spirits, and did extensive research on the Afterlife.
I still went to see maharaji when he was in town, but didnt go out of my way to attend events. I utterly stopped going to nightly satsang when it went over to all video events. It was a pretense. It was all an act. No one was real anymore. I had 4 friends who were premies, but we rarely talked about maharaji.
I had a girlfriend get murdered , her throat slashed ear to ear. i found her deathblood congealed in the snow at spring thaw and saved it for a year, till they caught her killer.
I worked for the AIDS project, and gave massages to gay men in the final stages of dying, who wept that i was unafraid to touch them.
Homeless men in my neighborhood made friends with me and poured out their life stories to me. They brought me things from their dumpster diving, and I took them hot food, in their hideouts, at midnight, in the snow.One fell off a bridge during a seizure, and lived in fear his leg would have to be amputated, and i held his hand thru two years of getting him back into the hospital for a new hip, then on disability and geting hm indoors and, in the end, back to work on the radio, after 24 years of dissolution on the road, believing the love of his life was dead. it turned out she wasnt.he had been lied to. he found her again. she still had all his 10,000 albums from his old job in the 60's, and their cat, who was 24 years old by then. i hope he found the courage to marry her. at last sight, he was still afraid to ask her, telling me he wasnt the man he used to be and he was afraid she would say no.(!)

so pete--there is a lot you can do if you come out from under the blanket and lay your hand on something besides a pint of brew. your life touches everyone. you can reach for the bottle, but the bottle doesnt reach back. you can't lean on it when you feel weak. It will fall down and break and cut you.
A human being, however, will look into your eyes and recognize that you care. When you reach for them, they will reach up and grasp your hand and gather their strength from your strength. You can help them up. You can walk with them when they need courage to face the unknown.
Little children will astonish you with their truth and perception. Animals will never judge you and lose interest if you don't spend all evening to try and look ten years younger. Your garden will never desert you for the next hot band.
Man, I wish I was where you are. I would set out and walk the land from one end to the other. I would greet every person I saw and spend time with each of them who would talk with me and share their lives. I would see the forests, the hills and valleys, feel the cold salt spray on my face, as I stared out over the sea, to the east and then to the west, to the south and the north. I would go see the palaces and the castles, the farms and the towns. I would go to scotland and to Ireland and to Wales, just wander and listen and see.
You know, pete--there is talk in some circles that all of britain will disappear under water in the next century. polar shift, melting icecaps, global warming...i dont know about you, but i would want to see it all, before it passed from sight. you could write about it, make music about it, set it all down for the world to remember. pass it on to your children's children's children. you don't have to see the ugliness and the pain and the powerlessness, through a glass, darkly. you can set out to see the humanity and the beauty and the wonder.
and hey--if you want to, reveal the techniques to whoever you think might like them! That's how it's traditionally done, from time immemorial! person to person, soul to soul. Thats what shri hans did. and he didnt need no gulfstream V and a collection of 5000 dollar watches to share it with 6 million people, one man to another.
you are not powerless. and the bottle is not your solace.get out of the spotlight and into the sunlight. get down off the stage and strike out for the next stage of your life. i promise you, it will be exhilarating.
and truly enlightening. the enightenment you seek is out there.

some other thoughts to toss in:
'all that is necessary for evil to triumph, is for enough good men to do nothing'

'garbage in, garbage out'

'If I am not going to be for myself, then who will be for me?
If I am only for myself, what am I?
If not now--when?'

c'mon peter:
at 18 I could see it. But at 40ish? haven't you been doing this long enough? Don't you know better? Is this fulfillment? What kind of a life are you going to have to look back on in your old age? What will you have done with the life God gave you? What do you think of yourself?
Not justifying to ME. To YOU!

????????????????????????

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Date: Fri, Apr 06, 2001 at 19:17:12 (GMT)
From: Tim G
Email: None
To: janet
Subject: i read all the posts first b4 replying 2 u
Message:
Hi Janet
I just travelled the road with you in my armchair and the journey was not, unfortunately, shocking but what I might have expected...the illusions as to caring premies.
I'm sad for you and very full of admiration. The 'lesson' was extremely tough but Boy did you make use of it and practise what it is to be a caring sensitive human being. I am in awe and feel myself challenged.
A great great letter
Love
Tim
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Date: Fri, Apr 06, 2001 at 14:18:52 (GMT)
From: Pete
Email: None
To: janet
Subject: i read all the posts first b4 replying 2 u
Message:
Hello Janet,
Thanks for the time spent on your reply. Reading it is certainly a sobering experience - you have certainly been through a lot.
I have given a lengthy response to some of the previous posts in the 'comin back atchya' post down at the bottom of this thread and thought it would be my last but you have drawn me back in. I was touched by the tough time your 'friends' gave you and I empathise. Loyalty is one of the greatest virtues in my book and those people who did not stand by you when you needed support are scumbags of the first degree. Of course saying and knowing that doesn't help and I can't believe the way your partner treated you when you were having the baby. Sounds like a bad case of fanatic lunacy and its just why I have always steered clear of the hardcore premie scene. I certainly would not expect some of those guys in suits to lend a hand to anyone.
You should write your story and sell the movie rights. My boring life pales by comparison but I would not like to go through any of what you have - mainly the cruelty of others.
I am afraid I am not much into all the metaphysics, channelling, encountering angels etc. I just like to avoid thinking about such things. I have not got your courage and perhaps that's why I have never got seriously into anything. I like my little corner of the world where nothing dramatic happens and reading your sad story makes me all the more determined to retain my quiet life as long as I can get away with it. My environment and experience is like a cotton candy fairy story after hearing about yours and I should never complain again ( I probably will though ). Not everyone can help change the planet - there have to be a few cowards around to make the rest of you look good ( just joking, what you do is intrinsically good). I'll just carry on looking out for myself and nearest and dearest until someone forces me to change. I admire the work you have done with Aids patients, the homeless, sick and disabled. I know I could never do anything like it - nor could I wander the country greeting people and sharing experiences - I'm more of the shy indoor sort.
We are all so different and jolly good thing it is, yet I do feel a bit guilty for enjoying a life of eat, drink and being merry when I should be doing more to help those in need.
Maybe I'll change one day.
Take Care - I hope the rest of your life is better than your premie years
Pete
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Date: Sat, Apr 07, 2001 at 17:10:44 (GMT)
From: cq
Email: None
To: Pete
Subject: before you go Pete, may I share a thought with you
Message:
- which is this:

a lot of strong, well-motivated, humanist-sympathising-type people have given their all to Maharaji over the years.

But what have they achieved?

And what has the Maha done with all that energy, time and effort (not to mention the cash) which could have been put to the use for which it was intended?

... well, the visible answer to that is - upgrading from a Gulfstream 4 to a Gulfstream 5 jet. (oh, and the $4 million yacht) etc. etc.

And still the numbers of people taking knowledge decline, year on year.

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Date: Fri, Apr 06, 2001 at 09:38:47 (GMT)
From: AJW
Email: None
To: Pete
Subject: Pete, I found another Master for you.
Message:
Hi Pete,

You sound like somebody who met this bunch of blokes in a pub, went partying with them, then woke up in their house next morning to find the walls covered in Nazi regallia.

You were just doing meditation, looking for a natural high like the rest of us. You may have dropped acid and opened your mind to the universe of spiritual mysteries, whatever your Journey was, it's 2001 and time to wake up.

Pete, although it doesn't feel like it right now to you, you're in a cult, just like the Moonies and the Hare Krishnas. I can prove it. Write down 10 characteristics of a religous cult, like the Moonies. Then check your list against Captain Rawats cult.

You say you never handed over any cash. Does this include registrations for festivals and events, donations to watch videos, buying divine paraphanelia, and the odd donation in a fund raising crisis?

Have you read Michael Dettmers account of the Captains not so perfect behaviour? How does his description of Rawat killing a cyclist and getting Sampuranand to take the blame, fit with your idea of the Perfect Master?

Pete, you say, before you give it up you'd like to see something better. Well there is someone better to follow than the Captain. Following this person will make you feel much better than you do now. You'll feel good inside. You'll be more free. You'll be higher. This person who I recommend you should follow is not perfect, but is much more of an approachable, sincere, moral, ethical soul. He has your interest, and the interest of those closest to you at heart. He doesn't want you to worship him. He loves you as much as life itself. He doesn't want any money from you. He is completely sincere.

He is called Pete Marshall.

Anth Ginn.

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Date: Fri, Apr 06, 2001 at 10:39:31 (GMT)
From: Pete
Email: None
To: AJW
Subject: Pete, I found another Master for you.
Message:
Anth,
This forum business could be addictive. I just wanted to say you made me laugh cos I sometimes do get that feeling that I've just woke up from some binge and wonder what the hell is going on.
I haven't read much here yet but probably will as I liked what you and some others have said - but I think I'll have to stop posting as I don't think I have the time in my life - there's not enough hours as it is.
I just posted an attempt at a reply to previous comments down at the bottom so I'll go off now and try to 'search for the hero inside myself' - he seems to be a good bloke.
Pete
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Date: Fri, Apr 06, 2001 at 15:55:46 (GMT)
From: AJW
Email: None
To: Pete
Subject: Who is Guru Maharaji?
Message:
Hi Pete,

Watch out, you're sashaying with the dark ones here. If you're using your real name, and you live in a 'Premie Community', expect an invitation out for a drink or a meal, and a 'little chat'.

Have you clicked the link at the top of the page and had a look around Ex-premie.org?

Maybe you were in an open prison and I was in maximum security. Whatever. It's good to be out and find out who Guru Maharaji really is.

Reminds me of a song. Or was it a book? No it was a movie.

Anth the media magnet.

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Date: Fri, Apr 06, 2001 at 20:21:29 (GMT)
From: ninna
Email: None
To: AJW
Subject: Who is Guru Maharaji?
Message:
I have never been here. I was a follower of Guru Mahaji about twenty-five years ago and thought he was great. I went to the astro dome and felt lots of love there, physically like an energy waving through me. Lots of people put him down. Where is his wife and children? If he is so bad why do people keep giving hem money? Money is nothing. Actually life is nothing but an illusion Mahaji can't hurt anyone unless they think he can.
I have moved on to A Course In Miracles by The Inner Light Foundation now. It is all you need. Try it for spiritual guidence. I am so glad to see Guru Mahaji's face again and feel the good things he gave me. Peace to you and may you find your way back home.
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Date: Sat, Apr 07, 2001 at 07:51:17 (GMT)
From: AJW
Email: None
To: ninna
Subject: Hey ninna
Message:
I'm home right now. I'm sitting at my pc typing, waiting for the kettle to boil.

Anth in a chair in a room in a house called home.

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Date: Sat, Apr 07, 2001 at 02:30:43 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: ninna
Subject: You, ninna, are a total fucking idiot
Message:
If he is so bad why do people keep giving hem money?

Your whole post is stupid but this line above is my favorite part.

'Course in Miracles' huh? Where can I learn more?

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Date: Fri, Apr 06, 2001 at 12:12:18 (GMT)
From: salam
Email: None
To: Pete
Subject: cool man
Message:
So, you won a medel for your post. congradulation.

A point to remember.

People post here for many reasons. some woek in very argumentative environmet, like lawyers, so they come here, What a better place to be in. Some post because that's the only place where they can speak (the wife and screaming all the time). Well am not going in all the details, but there is a part (a majorty) that have spent a lot of time with haramaharajgugu. In ashrams, out of ashrams and being cloose associates with him. Those are the pissed off ones. They can't bear to hear anything about haramaharajigugu. Those people have been hurt in one way or another.

Maybe to you it is hunky dory.

If you look cloosly you will see that there are a lot of shatared lives, dreams and promises. I would not want to just deal with the issue so lightly, though in general I think people have been civilized. As for Jagdeo, please do not forget that he worked for the maha. The maha knows about him and have not shown or acknowledged the wrong doing. Some of the people that Jagdeo abused happen to post here.

Well enjoy your stay. And we will meet again.

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Date: Fri, Apr 06, 2001 at 01:03:20 (GMT)
From: selene
Email: None
To: Pete
Subject: some things that I see in your post
Message:
I was the same kind of premie. On the fence, never sacrificing a whole lot, after the 70's but during the 70's that is another story.

What I learned upon leaving was that even with this distance from the organization or ritualistic aspect I had still accepted a lot of beliefs that were harmful or at the least arresting to my growth. I've described it various ways but one that stands out is the belief that 'this' life isn't real, don't pay attention to things that bother you, just meditate, go see M, etc. This was harmful for me. It may not be for you. Only you know that.

As for the abusive activities in his organization I do feel he is ultimately responsible. He is the CEO or CIO , whatever. The cult (sorry for that word but it's how I feel) would not exist without him and he has benifitted greatly and is the charismatic leader and needs to accept the responsibility that goes with it, like any other organization.

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Date: Thurs, Apr 05, 2001 at 23:48:45 (GMT)
From: Jerry
Email: None
To: Pete
Subject: Hello, Pete
Message:
Some people just took it a lot more seriously than you did -- actually, the way Maharaji wanted them to. I don't think M would describe you as an ideal premie, by any means, although I'm certain he's grateful for the plug.
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Date: Thurs, Apr 05, 2001 at 22:46:22 (GMT)
From: bill--Pete, the more you
Email: None
To: Pete
Subject: know on the subject, u will understand us...nt
Message:
sdghst
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Date: Thurs, Apr 05, 2001 at 22:22:31 (GMT)
From: Forum Admin
Email: forumfour@hotmail.com
To: Pete
Subject: Pete, Could you contact me?
Message:
Pete,

Please email me (forumfour@hotmail.com) regarding some discrepancies between your posts and your apparent location.

Many thanks,

Forum Admin

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Date: Fri, Apr 06, 2001 at 00:31:52 (GMT)
From: Forum Admin
Email: None
To: Forum Admin
Subject: Pete, cancel that!
Message:
I see what you're using, no problem. Though why you feel the need to use an anonymous proxy router service is beyond me, but as yet we have no rules against it.

So please ignore the request to email us, (unless you want to of course!) and sorry for being a tad trigger happy - but if you've seen all the troll activity here recently, you'll understand.

FA

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Date: Fri, Apr 06, 2001 at 09:41:44 (GMT)
From: AJW
Email: None
To: Forum Admin
Subject: What's up FA?
Message:
Forgot how to delete your own posts?

Ha ha ha.

Anth, who could have been a contender.

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Date: Thurs, Apr 05, 2001 at 21:20:35 (GMT)
From: Tim G
Email: timgitti@indigo.ie
To: Pete
Subject: A Premie Speaks
Message:
Hi Pete
Thanks for your post. Who am I to give you a roasting or try to change your beliefs or practices? I can only give you my reactions to what you say.
1.It seems clear that the closer you come to Mr Rawat and the more seriously you take his commandments the more you get hurt. You by your own admission skirted along on the outside and used Knowledge and Maharaji as a cool meditation practice and a bit of a social club. That way you didn't get hurt and were able to retain your individuality and choice quite appreciably
2. To retain a belief or life system purely because at a certain age it's too much hassle to find another one seems to denote a person who is content enough or frightened enough or depressed enough to cease being someone who is passionate about the truth...big or little T.
3. At my advanced age..55..I am still focused on watching life unfold and observing the cruelty inside and outside myself. In fact the very observation, if direct and unflinching leads to a freedom that we all as premies were supposedly so full of. What I'm saying is that there is life, freedom and understanding outside the mind set of premiedom with it's narrow breath worship.
4. Why not break free and explore..it's fun and enlivening..don't hide in the Known say I
5.Best Wishes
Tim
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Date: Thurs, Apr 05, 2001 at 20:19:56 (GMT)
From: Patrick Wilson
Email: patrick@patrickwilson.com
To: Pete
Subject: I think we may have met
Message:
Hi Pete, are you the same Pete Marshall who used to live in Hurstpierpoint and who first gave me satsang back in 74??
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Date: Thurs, Apr 05, 2001 at 21:45:50 (GMT)
From: JHB
Email: None
To: Patrick Wilson
Subject: You mean I wasn't the first...
Message:
... to give you satsang? Anyway, this guy (would I have known him?) seems far clearer about this K/M thing than I ever was, so it's probably best you heard it from him:-)

John.

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Date: Thurs, Apr 05, 2001 at 19:36:49 (GMT)
From: Bin Liner
Email: None
To: Pete
Subject: So keep your illusions and good luck ....
Message:
....if your perspective is representative of the core vote , the little chisler hasn't a hope .

He's still got you by the balls though whatever you say.

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Date: Thurs, Apr 05, 2001 at 18:28:27 (GMT)
From: Steve Quint
Email: the_avenger55@hotmail.com
To: Pete
Subject: An Ex-Premie Speaks
Message:
I was told by friends not to go near the place as everyone would come down on me like a ton of bricks, but what the hell.

Free speech is good. Free speech is very good. Truth comes in many forms. Take it where you find it.

I only wanted to give another perspective on the premie world.

I appreciate that.

The thing is I always took the lord of the Universe thing with a pinch of salt and regarded it as part of GM's culture that I could live without.
Perhaps it is all a fantasy, but why is everyone on this site so against that.

The more you believed the guy and took the whole trip seriously the more you likely got hurt. The hard-core offended ones that most of us are may have been too naive but it creates a sense of seeking justice and truth. As I said, I'll take the truth wherever I can find it.

I'm ducking down behind a wall now before you start stoning me.

The only way you are likely to get stoned around here is at a local ex-premie 'Latvian Night' party.

All The Best

Steve


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Date: Thurs, Apr 05, 2001 at 20:02:33 (GMT)
From: Pete
Email: None
To: Steve Quint
Subject: An Ex-Premie Speaks
Message:
Hi Steve,
Did you say Party - now you're talking my language.
I think that I'd be outnumbered though and get some heavy anti-satsang.
So long as there's lots of booze.
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Date: Sat, Apr 07, 2001 at 01:15:39 (GMT)
From: Steve Quint
Email: the_avenger55@hotmail.com
To: Pete
Subject: An Ex-Premie Speaks
Message:
Actually, some of the best times I've had have been with a friend whose still actively involved in maharaji's world. He's a relative johnny-come-lately, having received knowledge around 1990 so he's not as stuck in the old bullshit as many. I don't criticize m when I see my friend, but gradually the rift in beliefs has made me stay away from him more and more. I know a lot of people in the Vancouver pwk community, though, and he's one of the very few that's even close to normal. It's sad.

Steve

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Date: Thurs, Apr 05, 2001 at 18:13:36 (GMT)
From: Gregg
Email: None
To: Pete
Subject: Let the Stoning Begin!
Message:
Just kidding; you'll get some argument from us, obviously, but probably not much hostility.

Just a few points, Pete. First of all, you mention his drinking and smoking, but leave out his abusive behavior. This is a far more serious charge, since it bears more directly on his ability to teach others how to lead a happy life. Those close to him have often remarked on how unpleasant he can be to those close to him. Does this matter to you? Why not?

You said,
'...but before I give it up I'd like to see something better.
Whatever gets you through the night - and it only gets worse as you get older. I'm certainly too old now to start again trying to find something that gives me the courage to face another day in this violent, shallow world.'

I don't know how old you are, but I hope you don't seriously see your age as the thing that keeps you from finding something better.

There are lots of different meditations out there, and many ex-premies have found a lot of pleasure in exploring other realms of spiritual experience that don't involve a dubious 'Master.'
(Other exes are sick of spiritual teachers and New Age pretensions.)

Certainly you've had some groovy experiences with the four techniques and the comradeship of other premies. We all have. None of these experiences, though, were engineered by Maharaji. They have everything to do with you and your dedication and expectations, and nothing to do with the pathetic fraud who claims to be able to reveal God to people he doesn't even know.

You claim you were never into the devotion thing. OK, you don't worship him as Lord. But how do you view your relationship with him? There must be something there - otherwise you'd be grazing in greener spiritual pastures by now.

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Date: Thurs, Apr 05, 2001 at 18:49:05 (GMT)
From: Pete
Email: None
To: Gregg
Subject: Let the Stoning Begin!
Message:
Hello Gregg,
You say
'First of all, you mention his drinking and smoking, but leave out his abusive behavior. This is a far more serious charge'
And I agree - it is a serious charge. I have never liked to associate with people ( or gurus) who are abusive. But can you give some specific examples that are not just hearsay or sour grapes by those inner crowd who have not been sacked?
as for 'you don't worship him as Lord. But how do you view your relationship with him? '
I just see him as a guy that turned up one night when there wasn't much going on and told a few good stories, gave us a good laugh and has been part of the scene ever since.
Pete
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Date: Thurs, Apr 05, 2001 at 21:55:16 (GMT)
From: Joe
Email: None
To: Pete
Subject: Let the Stoning Begin!
Message:
I just see him as a guy that turned up one night when there wasn't much going on and told a few good stories, gave us a good laugh and has been part of the scene ever since.

Pete, something about what you are saying just doesn't ring true. Did you ever kiss Maharaji's feet? Did you ever pray to him? Did you ever try to devote your life to him? If any of that is true, I can't see how you think Maharaji is just a 'guy.'

And if you didn't do or believe any of that, did you believe anything he said? How many other things that he said did you just ignore, or choose to believe he was just kidding or lying. You know, like that the was the incarnation of God, that the purpose of your life was to devote it to him, etc.?

And even if you didn't believe any of that, don't you see how many other people did, and got damaged in the process? Doesn't that concern you, despite the fact that it didn't cost you too much?

Also, don't you think there is a serious problem is Maharaji is having sex with his followers, including carrying on an ongoing mistress relationship with one of them? Don't you think there is an inherent problem there?

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Date: Thurs, Apr 05, 2001 at 18:09:56 (GMT)
From: Katie H
Email: None
To: Pete
Subject: Up to you, if that's what you want out of life
Message:
...although you do make it sound very superficial and pointless, not to mention quite dreary - like a bunch of high school dropouts hanging around with other 'kewl guys', getting high, and fantasizing about life. I've been there and done that - and found it very depressing.

BTW, if it's just 'chilling out and getting high', why do you feel it's a part of a 'greater good'? Doesn't make sense to me.

No bricks, just sighs,
Katie

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Date: Thurs, Apr 05, 2001 at 18:50:16 (GMT)
From: pete
Email: None
To: Katie H
Subject: Up to you, if that's what you want out of life
Message:
Katie,
Re:
'getting high, and fantasizing about life. I've been there and done that - and found it very depressing.'
I'm sorry you found such activities depressing - there was always much more laughter at the back of my class, and we would not have been indulging in such things if it was not fun. I hope you were not one of Principal Skinners pet pupils - no offence and I know this is slightly superficial, but why can't we have a bit of fun? No matter how serious we are we are still going to end up dead. Maybe I could have been a genius who discovered a cure for something but I'm not that clever. I'm happy just hanging out with people that I care about and who care about me. And a few of us work in the entertainment industry so at least we give a few other people an escape from the 9 to 5. I reckon that's of some value.
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Date: Thurs, Apr 05, 2001 at 20:56:42 (GMT)
From: Helen
Email: None
To: pete
Subject: you've been candid, so I'll be also
Message:
Pete
Your candor is refreshing. Yet there is a sort of overall tone of cynicism/resignation that I fear is fed by your premie experience. I have always felt that M was the most materialist and cynical Guru/spiritual teacher around.

I think there is alot more to life than just having a good time, and passing the time being entertained, although there is nothing wrong with that as long as you don't hurt anyone else or participate in something that hurts other people.

Like Katie, I feel that how you live your life is up to you, but you must also be candid with yourself about the toll that M and his cult have taken on many many other people. While you were at the back of the class eschewing the 'authority figures' in the cult, they were doing alot of very wrong things. And yes, M was involved. He's not that innocent, in the words of Brittney Spears.

Right and wrong appear not to matter to you, in your value system of 'get it while you can 'cause life is a bitch and then you die.' In that case, you've got the guru that's just right for you. If you want to elevate yourself to having values that are a little more discriminating, you'll find that M doesn't appeal to you anymore. It's up to you. So have fun, dude.
Helen

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Date: Thurs, Apr 05, 2001 at 23:27:16 (GMT)
From: Pat Conlon
Email: None
To: Helen
Subject: That's it in a nutshell, Helen
Message:
You said: ''Right and wrong appear not to matter to you, in your value system of 'get it while you can 'cause life is a bitch and then you die.' In that case, you've got the guru that's just right for you. If you want to elevate yourself to having values that are a little more discriminating, you'll find that M doesn't appeal to you anymore. It's up to you. So have fun, dude.''

Thanks, Helen for pointing out the basic immorality of Maharajism.

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Date: Thurs, Apr 05, 2001 at 21:10:55 (GMT)
From: New-Age Redneck
Email: None
To: Helen
Subject: Oh my gawd.....we're quoting Brittany Spears?
Message:
Sorry, just couldn't let that one slip by..... he he he :-)
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Date: Fri, Apr 06, 2001 at 21:22:53 (GMT)
From: Tami Rainbow
Email: None
To: New-Age Redneck
Subject: Oh my gawd.....we're quoting Brittany Spears?
Message:
And, like, whut's rong with that? I strive to be just like her!
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Date: Thurs, Apr 05, 2001 at 18:57:29 (GMT)
From: Katie H.
Email: None
To: pete
Subject: Up to you, if that's what you want out of life
Message:
No, I wasn't a prize pupil - when I said 'been there and done that' re high-school drop-out, I was telling the truth. I guess hanging around and having a few laughs with the other 'kewl guys' was fun for a while, but it became depressing when nothing ever changed and none of the fantasies came true. (I still know some people from back then, and they are STILL hanging around and having a few laughs - and fantasizing about what they are gonna do when they win the lottery or something.)

But, as I said, if that's all you want out of life, that is up to you. I was just telling you how I felt about living that way - I don't find it to be much fun.

Katie

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Date: Thurs, Apr 05, 2001 at 19:44:09 (GMT)
From: Pete
Email: None
To: Katie H.
Subject: Up to you, if that's what you want out of life
Message:
ok Katie, you got me - I was being facetious and didn't mean to accuse you of being a swat - I don't even know you. I just was trying to say that seeking joy is a valid pursuit - just as good as wanting to be prim and proper. I think anything goes so long as you don't tread on anyone's toes and these guys who are 'hanging around and having a few laughs - and fantasizing about what they are gonna do when they win the lottery or something' may well be foolish but would they be any happier as President or policemen or janitors or lawyers... More to the point would they be more of a liability than an asset to society - as they are probably not suited to being a conservative member?
I respect that you have chosen not to go down that road but, getting back to the topic of knowledge, if some of us get a buzz out of it - where's the harm?
reespect
Pete
oh and it's not what I want out of life - I want enlightenment, happiness, wisdom and lots of love.
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Date: Fri, Apr 06, 2001 at 04:42:58 (GMT)
From: Brian
Email: brian@ex-premie.org
To: Pete
Subject: Christ!! It sounds like you ARE a brick
Message:
it's not what I want out of life - I want enlightenment, happiness, wisdom and lots of love

A quicker way to describe yourself is 'I just wanna have fun'.

Enlightenment is a word that you heard/read somewhere. Unfortunately I've heard more people talking about the value of seeking it than I have heard talk about the value of having it. The world is well-populated by the dim bulbs who spend their lives permanently socketed and thinking 'Someday my switch will come'.

You can also piss-off wisdom. In order to gain any you have to try something, evaluate it, and then correct until you get the desired result.

But that's not going to happen to you if your 'goals' are to wait until these magical results fall on you after doing nothing but 'hanging out' to actually earn them. Wisdom involves learning - a rare occurance in the back of the class among the adolescent gigglers and the 'too-kewl' do-nothings. The classroom analogy was yours, and it fits.

So maybe you'll be 'loved', but not by anyone who wants to live life off the playground. You'll be welcome to visit other people's functional lives, but they will show you the door when it gets late. That sort of love is the type shown to jesters, jokers, and others who lack any ambition to do more in life than hang out waiting to die happy. But you'll provide them with a sense of comic 'entertainment', and perhaps they'll drop something that they've earned into your tip-jar.

As for happiness - Drunks are happy. Idiots are happy. It's well within your grasp.

getting back to the topic of knowledge, if some of us get a buzz out of it - where's the harm?

Getting a buzz is the goal of morons. So you value Knowledge. Not enough to personally share it with others though, right?

You're a smart boy. But not as smart as Rawat. He keeps idiots like yourself as far away as possible. Unless they're volunteering their genius and talents to mow his lawn or wash his cars.

Of COURSE Rawat didn't get rich on your 'non-donations'! You have nothing to give.

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Date: Fri, Apr 06, 2001 at 08:16:47 (GMT)
From: Pat Conlon
Email: None
To: Brian
Subject: Brian, you said a mouthful
Message:
Your post was like a shot in the arm. That's the first time I've been treated to a long post from you and it was a pleasant surprise. Thanks.
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Date: Thurs, Apr 05, 2001 at 19:58:50 (GMT)
From: Way
Email: None
To: Pete
Subject: Interesting question - 'what's the harm?'
Message:
Pete,

Some of your posts so far have been tongue in cheek and some haven't. But I think I am getting the drift now. When you say all you want is 'getting a buzz,' you aren't being entirely honest and serious, and then you contradict yourself and say that you do in fact want all the higher values like wisdom and love, etc.

You ask what's the harm in using Knowledge to just get a buzz? Well, nothing, I guess, if that's what you want. But that's not what you really want, so the question becomes 'what's the harm in using Knowledge to get to enlightenment and truth?' The harm is that Rawat is not a living Master who gives us truth and love and enlightenment. We have to get these things for ourselves, standing on our own two feet, separate and independent of Rawat. As long as we rely on a false guru figure, we will not find our our own inner strength and our highest potential.

That's the harm.

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Date: Fri, Apr 06, 2001 at 03:35:35 (GMT)
From: Mercedes
Email: None
To: Way
Subject: thanks Way...you said
Message:
The harm is that
Rawat is not a living Master who gives us truth and love and
enlightenment. We have to get these things for ourselves, standing
on our own two feet, separate and independent of Rawat. As long
as we rely on a false guru figure, we will not find our our own inner
strength and our highest potential.


I really needed to hear that today and it is absolutely true.
Mercedes

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Date: Thurs, Apr 05, 2001 at 20:44:53 (GMT)
From: Katie H
Email: None
To: Way
Subject: Yes, well said, Way - and Pete...
Message:
...I'm glad to know that 'getting a buzz' isn't your aim in life. Thanks for 'confessing' :).

P.S. to NAR - hey there!

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Date: Thurs, Apr 05, 2001 at 20:25:05 (GMT)
From: New-Age Redneck
Email: None
To: Way
Subject: Well said, WAY!!! (nt)
Message:
nt
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Date: Thurs, Apr 05, 2001 at 23:29:26 (GMT)
From: Pat Conlon
Email: None
To: way
Subject: Well said, WAY!!! (nt)
Message:
k
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Date: Thurs, Apr 05, 2001 at 20:05:42 (GMT)
From: Pete
Email: None
To: Way
Subject: Interesting question - 'what's the harm?'
Message:
Ok Way,
so you're saying that knowledge is not the way.
So what is?
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Date: Thurs, Apr 05, 2001 at 20:11:17 (GMT)
From: Way
Email: None
To: Pete
Subject: Interesting question - 'what's the harm?'
Message:
Now you're asking me 'what is the way?' Yeah, right! How long have you got? Don't you have to go to work now?
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Date: Thurs, Apr 05, 2001 at 20:41:01 (GMT)
From: Pete
Email: None
To: Way and Patrick and all
Subject: Patrick,Way and ex-p gang - it wasn't me.
Message:
I do have to go now - just finished trying to make myself look 10 years younger and am off out the door.
I would glad to read your alternative 'way' when I come home.
And Patrick - it wasn't me.
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Date: Thurs, Apr 05, 2001 at 20:57:09 (GMT)
From: Way
Email: None
To: Pete
Subject: Patrick,Way and ex-p gang - it wasn't me.
Message:
Thanks Pete,

But I'm afraid I don't have any alternatives to offer. When I leave the guru, all I've got is what I came with. Life will teach me.

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Date: Thurs, Apr 05, 2001 at 18:09:47 (GMT)
From: New-Age Redneck
Email: None
To: Pete
Subject: A Premie Speaks ????
Message:
Pete, you said, '...If he is wrong in his preaching then so be it, but before I give it up I'd like to see something better...'

The 'something better' is called TRUTH, HONESTY, INTEGRITY, THINKING FOR YOURSELF... you know.... the REAL STUFF. There..... will you quit now?

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Date: Thurs, Apr 05, 2001 at 19:46:26 (GMT)
From: Pete
Email: None
To: New-Age Redneck
Subject: A Premie Speaks ????
Message:
oK new-Age Redneck,
I get your point and I've just learned how to do italics ( i think)
YES, I'll take the reality of war and poverty and death over lala-land fantasy any day. You can't fix it, if you don't acknowledge it! (Read that: Look it straight in the eyes without flinching).

I just feel powerless to do anything about it. What can anyone do? I certainly couldn't handle being a politician. All I try to do is be loyal and kind to those around me and hope that by being a part of a group of peacenics it will spread.
I give what I can to red nose day ( I voted for Jack Dee). I buy the Big Issue. I stand my round in the pub ( sorry to those non UK people who don't know what I'm on about). I feel terrible for the children on tv with the swollen bellies covered in flies and i would give anything to help and to be honest it saddens me more than I can say.
I know people here in England who are struggling to survive - and it is those that I chose to try to help. You can't be a good samaritan to everyone so I think it is cruel for you to say I guess some folks just have to run-away and hide their eyes and plug their ears, rather that even attempt to fix it, right? Someone has to be a coward for the heroes to shine, right?
although I readily admit to being a coward but I think I would be much more of one without the strength I get from practising knowledge
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Date: Thurs, Apr 05, 2001 at 20:23:09 (GMT)
From: New-age Redneck
Email: None
To: Pete
Subject: Ok Pete
Message:
In your original post, I don't believe you spoke of any altruitic bent on your part (just a party animal, so to speak). Whatever you are doing in the UK is GREAT! ANYTHING that you can do is great! You don't have to do EVERYTHING, just what you can..... Pete, if you are really doing that, then on my personal yardstick YOU are a hero! Not that my yardstick is all that meaningful, but you get my point.

The cowards, Pete, are those that CHOOSE to do NOTHING except hide from all of the problems. You have to look those problems in the eye (again, without flinching) to see them properly and know what to do. The world REALLY sucks (to a large degree) and we aren't even going to put a dent in the problems until we can say that (and mean it) without flinching. Aversion to a problem diverts the solution. If you don't 'see' the problem, how can you fix the problem? How can you even say that you 'care' about the problem, if you can't look those that are suffering from it squarely in the face? Hiding under a blanket NEVER solved ANY problem and it sure doesn't indicate any compassion. I thought we learned that as little kids...... maybe not.

BUT, don't give any credit for your compassion to that greedy little scheister. He had nothing to do with it! When was the last time you heard him say, 'don't send me money, feed the poor?' Would NEVER be the right answer? You bet it would! Even DUO was set up as a way to funnel money to that greedy little punk. He used it as a way (for a short while) to sucker us into thinking that we were 'doing something' for the world.

If most premies would spend some of their time and money on this, as opposed to sending it to the scheister who just squanders it on SAILBOATS, for god's sake, most of these problems would have significant dents put in them. That's a LOT of money we're talking about here. If EVERYONE did just a little bit, there would be no problems that could not be overcome (IMHO). What you 'believe in' isn't really all that important to anyone.... what you DO is important to EVERYONE! (IMHO)

Ok, I'm off my soapbox now.

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Date: Thurs, Apr 05, 2001 at 18:51:48 (GMT)
From: pette
Email: None
To: New-Age Redneck
Subject: A Premie Speaks ????
Message:
New age redneck,
The 'something better' is called TRUTH, HONESTY, INTEGRITY, THINKING FOR YOURSELF... you know.... the REAL STUFF
Hey, who says I'm not truthful, honest (isn't that the same thing) and think for myself ( I don't think for anyone else) As for the REAL STUFF - you mean old age, disease, war, poverty, lack of opportunity, political oppression, millions dying of disease, starvation etc. etc. Well you can wallow in it all you want i'm ageddinoutahere - what ever way I can that doesn't hurt my fellow creatures
Pete
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Date: Thurs, Apr 05, 2001 at 19:02:28 (GMT)
From: New-Age Redneck
Email: None
To: pete
Subject: You completely missed....
Message:
Pete: Did I say YOU weren't all of those things? Look again before you start throwing stones.....

I'm talking about the perfect scheister himself.... HE has NONE of those attributes.

And YES, I'll take the reality of war and poverty and death over lala-land fantasy any day. You can't fix it, if you don't acknowledge it! (Read that: Look it straight in the eyes without flinching). You can't have compassion for those that are suffering under the weight of those things, either, if you run-away and roll-your-own-dharma every day.

But, I guess some folks just have to run-away and hide their eyes and plug their ears, rather that even attempt to fix it, right? Someone has to be a coward for the heroes to shine, right?

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Date: Thurs, Apr 05, 2001 at 18:02:21 (GMT)
From: Way
Email: None
To: Pete
Subject: First brick
Message:
Boy are you asking for it!!!

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Date: Thurs, Apr 05, 2001 at 19:48:08 (GMT)
From: Pete
Email: None
To: Way
Subject: First brick
Message:
Way,
come on if you think you're hard enough ( just joking - don't throw any bricks )
Pete
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Date: Fri, Apr 06, 2001 at 09:44:44 (GMT)
From: AJW
Email: None
To: Pete
Subject: You tell him Pete. (nt)
Message:
come on you Reds
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Date: Thurs, Apr 05, 2001 at 23:36:35 (GMT)
From: Pat Conlon
Email: None
To: Pete
Subject: How can we throw bricks at you, Pete?
Message:
You are obviously an honest and honorable man unlike Rev Rawat whose ambitions have blinded him to common decency and democratic values.
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Date: Thurs, Apr 05, 2001 at 18:02:03 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Pete
Subject: All I can say is I'm glad I'm not you
Message:
You chose superficiality as an ideal, Pete. Have a nice life.
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Date: Thurs, Apr 05, 2001 at 18:52:43 (GMT)
From: Pete
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: All I can say is I'm glad I'm not you
Message:
Jim,
ouch - the first brick
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Date: Thurs, Apr 05, 2001 at 19:33:05 (GMT)
From: Pat Conlon
Email: None
To: Pete
Subject: Hi, Pete, you're okay in my book
Message:
You posted under your real name (I think) and you have been polite and friendly and willing to have a discussion instead of simply giving us a sermon.

I'm not into converting you. My biggest reason for leaving was because it has become just another boring money-making religion and really does not help to spread Knowledge (which can be a valuable tool IMO) at all - at least not in the west. Also it is far too secretive and undemocratic for my tastes.

But the clincher was finding out about Rawat switiching drivers after he accidentally killed a cyclist with the car that he was driving in India (Dettmers was an eye-witness) in order to not have the inconvenience of standing trial for vehicular manslaughter. Too selfish and cowardly for my tastes.

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Date: Thurs, Apr 05, 2001 at 19:58:48 (GMT)
From: Pete
Email: None
To: Pat Conlon
Subject: Hi, Pete, you're okay in my book
Message:
Hello Pat,
This is fun although a bit confusing. I feel I am having a conversation with too many people and I have to go to work soon.
However, your post has grabbed me by the goolies.
First of all I agree about the secretive thing and I would have no hesitation in telling any Tom Dick or Harry how to meditate if they either paid me enough money or were young and beautiful ( just kidding again ) But I would tell someone to try focusing on their breathing if I thought they were stressed out. It's on daytime tv and in every magazine for chrissake. I know the other techniques are common knowledge these days so I am puzzled as to why it is still a secret - and I get into a few arguments with fellow premies about this.
More seriously I am intrigued by you saying that Maharaji has killed someone - that's a bit too much mud slinging and why hasn't he been brought to trial if true?
Pete
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Date: Thurs, Apr 05, 2001 at 20:07:59 (GMT)
From: Way
Email: None
To: Pete
Subject: Information on the killing, etc
Message:
Pete,

It seems that you are not yet fully informed about all our objections to Mr. Rawat. There is a 14 objections letter that outlines all the objections and provides links to the whole story behind the objections. This letter includes references to the fatal hit and run accident.

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Date: Thurs, Apr 05, 2001 at 20:13:26 (GMT)
From: Pete
Email: None
To: Way
Subject: Information on the killing, etc
Message:
ok Way, I'll look in on your 14 objections but I'm shooting off now - got a gig tonight.
I'll look in when I get back
Pete
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Date: Fri, Apr 06, 2001 at 10:24:05 (GMT)
From: Pete
Email: None
To: Pete
Subject: Comin back atchya.
Message:
Oops I've been addressed by the Forum Administrator himself...

Though why you feel the need to use an anonymous proxy router service is beyond me, but as yet we have no rules against it.

Yes, my system is permanently configured with proxy and firewall and I am surprised that you think it is so wrong. I don't want to go in to the advantages such as the right to privacy, the prevention of unsolicited advertisements, government eavesdropping, the subversive collection of information by multinational companies so they can target you and increase their wealth,spamming, those naughty little bots, trojans etc. and many other reasons why it's important not to leave your portal to this crazy world wide open.
As I said before I am against authority and anything I can do to keep out of their way I will.
It sounds like you are quite the authoritarian ('as yet we have no rules') so I'm sorry (not) you could not access my location. I am also surprised that you would want to pin down my address. If you are that keen I should have given my house and phone number so you could pop round whenever you felt the need to call me a brick, moron, deprogram me or tell me that you are glad you are not like me, as a couple of the comments to my post said. I'm sorry, but what business is it of yours where I come from and if I was spiteful I would wish many a spam and trojan upon you for your naivite in not using these net tools yourself.
But as I am not a vindictive sort I'll just try and respond to some of the messages before I disappear and stop bothering your site with my proxy connection.
First of all I think I was warming to some of the ex gang until I saw your 'could you contact me' message ( it reminded me of being called out in class ) and, of course I am not tarring everyone with the same brush, but I think that I am now less inclined to believe the mud slinging. The general picture seems to be that GM is a machaevellian, greedy despot who sits around getting drunk and devising new schemes to torture the mugs he has lured into his game - he sees us all as gullible fools whose only purpose is to keep him and his family in a luxurious life style.
I have never been close to him but have seen and heard him quite a few times. This picture just does not ring true with me - but then it's just a matter of opinion and if I became certain that he was up to no good ( like trying to find out personal information information about me that I wished to remain private - sorry couldn't resist) then I may well change my opinion. There have been a few trusted allies of mine in the past that turned out to be not as trustworthy as I first thought so I am open to concrete direct evidence about a person's behaviour and character.
As to how I see Maharaji - I guess I was wrong to say something like 'one of the lads'. He's more like a coach. If I wanted to get fit I'd adopt some sort of fitness guru's regime; it used to be Jane Fonda many years ago. I could pick any one of many but if I go with Jane then I don't have to think she is infallible on all things fitness related - I don't even have to believe in her philosophy of fitness. But if I find that doing her exercises makes me feel better then that'll do me.
As for him ( or Jane Fonda) being responsible for the bad actions of those who practice the recommended techniques, I think that is ridiculous. GM is a bit like a manager, someone who spurs you on when you lose the thread of it all and as a most indisciplined person, without a bit of encouragement I would never meditate.
This is turning out to be a long post but probably not many of you will read it anyway so I'll carry on a bit longer trying to answer a couple of other people.
Joe, you say
Did you ever kiss Maharaji's feet? Did you ever pray to him? Did you ever try to devote your life to him? If any of that is true, I can't see how you think Maharaji is just a 'guy.'
And if you didn't do or believe any of that, did you believe anything he said? How many other things that he said did you just ignore, or choose to believe he was just kidding or lying. You know, like that the was the incarnation of God, that the purpose of your life was to devote it to him, etc.?
And even if you didn't believe any of that, don't you see how many other people did, and got damaged in the process? Doesn't that concern you, despite the fact that it didn't cost you too much?

Good points, at least better than wishing you weren't like me. I did get reluctantly swept along with some of the darshan stuff but never felt comfortable with it and, to be honest still wonder what it was all about and why GM allowed it to go on. I've always thought that it was his lack of authoritarianism - in giving the people what they want rather than saying how we should act, but I know there is some contradiction in that and his rules for ashram premies. I don't think I ignored anything but saw it as fun - a game - lila always meant to me that all the worlds a stage so lets pick a part and have some fun. It might be lord of the universe or fanatical devotee. I suppose I should have taken things more seriously but I did see the bad effects it had on others who became intense and that's why I avoided associating with the service brigade who did'nt seem to have an ounce of humour between them and were intent on 'serving the lord'. As if they were some sort of special beings picked to assist the liberation of mankind. So I guess I saw those who blindly followed as making their own bed.

Helen..
Right and wrong appear not to matter to you, in your value system of 'get it while you can 'cause life is a bitch and then you die.' In that case, you've got the guru that's just right for you. If you want to elevate yourself to having values that are a little more discriminating, you'll find that M doesn't appeal to you anymore

That's telling me Miss. Just joking. Right and wrong do matter to me - I will make every effort not to interfere in other peoples lives ( such as tracing their location for whatever reason - sorry I'm still mad at that ) and even help someone if they fall down but when I'm not doing charitable deeds or pursuing high ideals I like to have a good time and do fall into the category you describe. Maybe when my luck runs out I will want to change, and it's true that there are a few things in the Elan Vital camp that make me think twice - lack of such a forum as this for instance. One day I may join you all where the grass is greener and the wisdom is real; if you can understand Dawkins, Hawkins and all the others who say they are discovering 'truth'.
It seems the study of science seems to be the only alternative - but to me that's not much fun and certainly doesn't help in relationships or with emotional suffering, things I regard as more important than knowing the make up of DNA or how big the universe is.

Finally Brian - you have given me a good telling off - chasing me out of the playground. The funny thing is you are probably right - apart from me being a 'dim bulb who never learnt anything, a moron who is not loved by anyone, someone who aspires towards the happiness of a drunken idiot, and have nothing to give anyone'; apart from those few points I agree with everything you say.
But then nobody's perfect.
Anyone fancy a pint?
It's been fun crossing swords with all you whacky exes.
Pete

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Date: Fri, Apr 06, 2001 at 10:55:12 (GMT)
From: Forum Admin
Email: None
To: Pete
Subject: Hey, I apologise!
Message:
But you can't blame me for keeping an eye on things here! No, you're very sensible to use a proxy router service, and good luck to you. I didn't spot it at first, and the request to discuss this by email was meant in a friendly way, and as Katie says, we have been disrupted by people who are not as well meaning as you.

So please don't go away because of me.

Forum Admin

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Date: Fri, Apr 06, 2001 at 11:05:54 (GMT)
From: Pete
Email: None
To: Forum Admin
Subject: Apology accepted
Message:
Hey thanks,
I was probably a bit OTT anyway. It was just the first thing I saw this morning after a bit of a wild night and it rattled my sore head.
I feel a bit today like that Jim who said he wouldn't want to be me.
Anyhow, as I said I am trying to resist the lure of shooting the breeze too much on this forum, nothing to do with you or anyone here just got a lot of things going on at the moment that I have to take care of and I can see me over indulging ( as I tend to in most things )
Pete
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Date: Fri, Apr 06, 2001 at 10:39:24 (GMT)
From: Katie H.
Email: None
To: Pete
Subject: Just a note about what the FA said
Message:
Hey Pete -
Of course you don't have to stay here, but I wish you wouldn't take what the FA said personally. We have had a major troll infestation here recently, and our nerves are pretty raw. Unfortunately some of these trolls have pretended to be 'new people' just finding this forum, and have wasted a lot of time and sincerity on the part of the people who post here - thus causing suspicion of people like you. Don't know if this will make you feel any better, but I'll give it a shot.

Re Maharaji - you might want to read the EPO site itself for more information. Bear in mind that it's told with an ex-premie slant (naturally). Most people find the Journeys interesting.

Take care, and thanks for answering.
Katie

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Date: Thurs, Apr 05, 2001 at 20:46:54 (GMT)
From: Pat Conlon
Email: None
To: Pete
Subject: Hi, Pete, I've got to go to work too
Message:
So just a quick post. The killing was accidental butthe cover-up afterwards was not and that cover-up is rife inside the cult. When I talked about secrecy I did not mean secrecy about the techniques. I meant secrecy about the running of cult affairs which until three months ago I was participating in at the top level in my community. The sort of secrecy that leads to covering up M's vehicular manslaughter and denial of Jagdeo's pedophilia and the revisionism that is now being put out by EV and maharaji.org. It stinks and is so deceitful.

I hope you realize that, like me, you can still enjoy what Rawat calls Knowledge but that you don't have to compromise your integrity by covering up for him. I'm sure you're a big boy now and can stand on your own two feet. You don't need a master that you are ashamed of. In fact you don't need a master, period. K has been traditionally given in a very democratic way in India without all the master BS. Guru's use K to make money. It's just another religion like the 700 Club.

I hope I have another chance to talk to you. I like your attitude. And, yes, it can be a bit mind-boggling to have conversations with ten people at the same time. So just relax and have fun with us. I sense an irreverence in you that is refreshingly open and democratic. Thanks.

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Date: Thurs, Apr 05, 2001 at 16:41:49 (GMT)
From: Robert Setton
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: Francesca + Bill on Abi's Dad
Message:
[Edited - intrusive personal information removed by request. FA]

From what I've seen of M, I believe that if he became personally involved he would be very sweet, humble and highly sensitive to their suffering, that's just my observation from past meetings. He can be very difficult and annoying and knowallish but all in all he's a pretty cool guy most times and that's a conservative view. I've never seen him as God or the Perfect one when in my presence, only in imagination when he's far away, spiritual fantasy romance I call it.
One thing I've noticed whenever I've been remotely near to the action though, and it is a significant thing, that is whether we like it or not, he is an unbelievably busy man and busy men are incredibly frustrating to pin down, on any matter at all. I have been flattened many times, humiliated, angered because to me I am the most important being in the universe and he better notice. I have been offended by what I've seen as his 'arrogant aloofness' and then been told what he has to get done in the next half hour...and bowed my head in shame. I would not like to be as busy as that, in fact I go out of my way to organise spells of total nothing, irresponsible laziness. I am addicted to dawdling, pondering, I can't imagine what it must be like to constantly move around, to have 200 things to attend to every day.
I think 'Sir Dave' was right in saying...'The only way to prevent any such public defences would be to not have a public accusation of Jagdeo in the first place.'
I say that because on reading this post, it looks like a 'I'm on the M+J defense team.' That isn't the aim at all, I believe what I have read, I haven't a clue what to do about it emotionally except be detached, because I'm not involved. But I know if it was my kid...gggrrrrrr
I wish them warm regards,
Robert

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Date: Fri, Apr 06, 2001 at 01:02:06 (GMT)
From: Forum Administrator
Email: None
To: Robert Setton
Subject: Francesca + Bill on Abi's Dad
Message:
Robert could you please email me at forumfour@hotmail.com? Thank you.
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Date: Thurs, Apr 05, 2001 at 19:12:39 (GMT)
From: bill---Hello Robert,
Email: None
To: Robert Setton
Subject: Maybe Mike Dettmers would like to comment?...nt
Message:
sdffh
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Date: Thurs, Apr 05, 2001 at 18:02:07 (GMT)
From: Monmot
Email: None
To: Robert Setton
Subject: Too tired to die...
Message:
If Maharaji is too busy for years on end to deal with an unethical and illegal matter, the ignoring of which could lead to grave consequences, then I'd like to know what he's busy doing.

Pray tell.

Thanks.

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Date: Thurs, Apr 05, 2001 at 18:26:22 (GMT)
From: JHB
Email: None
To: Robert
Subject: Busy doing everything
Message:
Sailing his yacht? Very time consuming, as is drinking (every night by Donner, Dettmer and Mischler's testimonies). Also, after a joint it's very difficult to spare time for anything. And becoming an expert private investor requires daily study of the stock market. And inventing things? God, the endless failures before getting the invention right. And the music, poetry, these can just absorb one's time to the exclusion of all else.

Robert, seriously, if you've been reading here and thinking for yourself there is no way you would have come up with this defense of Maharaji.

Yes, he is busy. He is busy doing those things he wants to do to satisfy his selfish desires. And that includes keeping EV going to keep the cash coming in.

John.

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Date: Thurs, Apr 05, 2001 at 22:36:43 (GMT)
From: Joe
Email: None
To: JHB
Subject: Time flies when you'r drunk and stoned
Message:
And those states you just can't seem to get anything done. It's a real problem.

Maharaji is just as busy as a beaver. He runs his little legs off trying to save the world. What time does he have to deal with pedophiles in his employ? Flying his glider, sailing his yacht and collecting watches are lots more important and very time consuming. Having sex with his mistress probably takes a couple minutes a day too. With Viagra, it probably takes even more time.

Investing his millions also takes time. Hey, he's only human you know! I mean, he only has SO MANY servants. They can't do everything. He has to go to the bathroom by himself, you know. Why, in that 'delapidated' house he lives in, up there in Malibu, I'm sure he is constantly having to deal with roof leaks, and the rising damp. There are only so many hours in the day.

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Date: Fri, Apr 06, 2001 at 11:45:30 (GMT)
From: Michael Dettmers
Email: dettmers@gylanix.com
To: Joe
Subject: Robert, bill -- Joe said it all (nt)
Message:
nt
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Date: Fri, Apr 06, 2001 at 23:54:12 (GMT)
From: Michael Dettmers
Email: dettmers@gylanix.com
To: Robert
Subject: Further thoughts (maybe OT)
Message:
I've been pondering your question and I remembered the following management lessons:

Lesson Number One
*****************
A crow was sitting on a tree, doing nothing all day.
A small rabbit saw the crow, and asked him,
'Can I also sit like you and do nothing all day long?'
The crow answered: 'Sure, why not.'
So, the rabbit sat on the ground below the crow, and rested.
All of a sudden, a fox appeared, jumped on the rabbit and ate it.

Management Lesson:

To be sitting and doing nothing, you must be sitting very, very high up.

Lesson Number Two
*****************

A turkey was chatting with a bull.
'I would love to be able to get to the top of that tree,'
sighed the turkey, 'but I haven't got the energy.
'Well, why don't you nibble on some of my droppings?'
replied the bull. 'They're packed with nutrients.'
The turkey pecked at a lump of dung and found that it
actually gave him enough strength to reach the first
branch of the tree.

The next day, after eating some more dung,
he reached the second branch.
Finally after a fortnight, there he was proudly perched
at the top of the tree.
Soon he was promptly spotted by a farmer,
who shot the turkey out of the tree.

Management Lesson:

Bullshit might get you to the top, but it won't keep you there.

Lesson Number Three
*******************

A little bird was flying south for the winter.
It was so cold, the bird froze and fell to the ground in a large field.
While it was lying there, a cow came by and dropped some dung on it.
As the frozen bird lay there in the pile of cow dung,
it began to realize how warm it was.
The dung was actually thawing him out!
He lay there all warm and happy, and soon began to sing for joy.

A passing cat heard the bird singing and came to investigate.
Following the sound, the cat discovered the bird under the
pile of cow dung, and promptly dug him out and ate him!

Management Lessons:

1) Not everyone who drops shit on you is your enemy.
2) Not everyone who gets you out of shit is your friend.
3) And when you're in deep shit, keep your mouth shut!

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Date: Thurs, Apr 05, 2001 at 22:40:11 (GMT)
From: New-Age Redneck
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: Joe, THIS IS A KEEPER!!!!
Message:
Joe, this is excellent! BWAH HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA!
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Date: Thurs, Apr 05, 2001 at 21:13:11 (GMT)
From: Ms. P
Email: None
To: JHB
Subject: Being devious is tedious
Message:
and, hey, is time being taken up by him trying to get his own blond babes now? And, the fact that he's such a control freak (along with that extra challenge of being covert)is very time consuming.
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Date: Thurs, Apr 05, 2001 at 17:31:14 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Robert Setton
Subject: There are TWO main issues, Robert
Message:
One issue is how will the cult address the harm Abi suffered. That's what you're talking about.

The other issue is how can Maharaji ever justify knowing that Jagdeo was a pedophile and letting him continue to circulate in his extremely exalted postiion of trust as he did all those years.

According to Abi, her dad told MAHATMA Guru Charanand years ago. Did he not forward the report? If not, what does that say about this OTHER 'saint' of Maharaji's? But, better still, Susan was specifically told that Maharaji did indeed know about Jagdeo. She first reported him to Randy Prouty who said he'd told Maharaji. Then, years later, Judi Osborne confirmed the fact that Maharaji already knew!.

Busy? That's what you have to say? Maharaji was busy?

No, you're not on the 'M & J defence team' Can't imagine why anyone would think that. Paranoid, I guess. Must be the effect of the ex-premie cult conditioning. Pity, isn't it? All these good minds gone to waste?

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Date: Thurs, Apr 05, 2001 at 17:07:46 (GMT)
From: Katie H
Email: None
To: Robert Setton
Subject: To Robert
Message:
Dear Robert -
'If it were your kid', you might think it WAS the most important thing in the world, and you might be right. Maybe even Maharaji would think it was the most important thing in the world if it was HIS kid.

Re M being 'unbelievably busy' - it is very difficult for me to understand how someone could be too busy to deal with this issue for the last 20 years, or even assuming he didn't know about it back then (which is not clear), during the time Abi's story has been posted on this web site. I appreciate that you are trying to defend Maharaji here, but 'too busy' is not a good defense, IMHO, and makes it appear as if concern for other people is not a high priority for him.

You wrote:
I think 'Sir Dave' was right in saying...'The only way to prevent any such public defences would be to not have a public accusation of Jagdeo in the first place.'

Abi and Susan told their stories on this site KNOWING that they were going to have to defend themselves publically. They did this to help other people who may also have been abused by Jagdeo as children. If you believe that their stories are isolated incidents, and that Jagdeo never laid a hand on another child, then perhaps you might be justified in suggesting that they keep their accusations private. I don't believe that, and neither do they.

The Catholic church in the US stonewalled victims of child sexual abuse by priests for many years. They often just relocated priests to other geographical areas when their abuses became known in the Catholic community. The victims were FORCED to make the abuse public in order to get the Catholic Church to respond and to stop allowing these priests free access to children. There were several attempts to report sexual abuse by Jagdeo in the past, and these reports met with a similar non-response from DLM/EV - and by extension, Maharaji. It appears that making the reports of Jadgeo's abuse public has finally forced EV, and Maharaji, to deal with it - although I'm not as optimistic about the outcome as you appear to be.

Sincerely,
Katie Haering

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Date: Sat, Apr 07, 2001 at 04:37:36 (GMT)
From: Robert Setton
Email: None
To: Katie H
Subject: To Katie
Message:
I understand what you mean Katie, and also the tone of the other posts about this. I agree that M being a busy man does not preclude him from acting on this matter.
The genesis of my post actually originated from my surprise (and delight) in discovering that I knew Abi's father. For some reason my warm expressions about him were deemed 'intrusive' and removed by the administrator here. I hope at least Abi took some heart in knowing how well thought of her father is and how much support is there for both of them.
regards,
Robert

PS. I enjoyed Michael Dettmer's fables!

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Date: Sun, Apr 08, 2001 at 00:27:15 (GMT)
From: Nigel
Email: None
To: Robert Setton
Subject: Fables?
Message:
PS. I enjoyed Michael Dettmer's fables!

Perhaps you would like it better still if they were just fables, rather than fact?

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Date: Sat, Apr 07, 2001 at 16:33:44 (GMT)
From: Forum Administrator
Email: None
To: Robert Setton
Subject: Re deleted paragraph
Message:
Robert

Your 'warm expressions' about Abi's father also contained a very detailed physical description. This, and an general uneasiness about your post, is what prompted me to edit it after discussing it with Abi first.

FA

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Date: Sat, Apr 07, 2001 at 17:38:06 (GMT)
From: Robert Setton
Email: None
To: Forum Administrator
Subject: Re deleted paragraph
Message:
You're quite right to feel uneasy, read backwards my post carries a very different message.
Robert
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Date: Sat, Apr 07, 2001 at 15:57:57 (GMT)
From: Katie H
Email: None
To: Robert Setton
Subject: Hey Robert
Message:
I know you had good intentions in making your post, and I wouldn't have exactly called it 'intrusive', but sometimes people don't want too much personal information revealed in public, especially when they are going through a hard time. And they are allowed to ask the FA to remove it. I am glad Abi and her dad have support - let's hope that helps bring about some action.

Take care,
Katie

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Date: Thurs, Apr 05, 2001 at 04:07:00 (GMT)
From: Abi
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: Update: Jagdeo is now a priority
Message:
Dear All,
first of all, thank you for your support with all of this. It means a great deal to me, my father, Susan, and many others. Your support has kept us strong.

I've just spoken to my father who was approached by Cathy this morning at Amaroo. She has now read the letter and wishes to meet with him about it. She also told him that an unnamed person from Amaroo will also be involved. Someone is going to call from America. I suspect this person will be a lawyer but my father was not told this. It seems then that very quickly Jagdeo has become a priority for a few key people in Elan Vital.

My father is happy for the first time in months and feels that Cathy is a decent woman and that she will do what she can.

I continue to hope that my father gets the chance to speak to Maharaji in person. I would also welcome the chance to talk to Maharaji about this.

I hope that Maharaji gives my father the respect he deserves. He has been a devoted premie since '73.

I'll let you know what happens.

Best wishes

Abi

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Date: Fri, Apr 06, 2001 at 00:35:27 (GMT)
From: Selene
Email: None
To: Abi
Subject: be careful Abi
Message:
And best wishes. I have nothing further in advice it's been said today. Have a witness, etc. Just wanted to wish you all the best and let you know you have been a big inspiration to me.
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Date: Thurs, Apr 05, 2001 at 19:18:13 (GMT)
From: bill---You mean SPIN
Email: None
To: Abi
Subject: CONTROL is a priority...you are being HANDLED..nt
Message:
asdfh
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Date: Thurs, Apr 05, 2001 at 19:03:52 (GMT)
From: Sir Dave
Email: sirdavid12@hotmail.com
To: Abi
Subject: We all live in hope
Message:
I wouldn't hope for too much. They're back-pedalling furiously and trying to cover their tracks to save face. (How's that for mixed metaphores)

They may come on with the smooth sales talk but I'd be wary of what they're offering (if anything) and what their motives are. Their motives are basically to shut you up, I guess, and lay the matter to rest.

Remember, their main concern is for Maharaji's welfare and their own Elan Vital careers. Are they going to bring Jagdeo to face the music? Of course not and in my mind, that is what they should be doing.

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Date: Thurs, Apr 05, 2001 at 15:12:51 (GMT)
From: Cynthia
Email: None
To: Abi
Subject: Update: Jagdeo is now a priority
Message:
Hi Abi,

I have a few concerns about you and/or your father meeting with EV lawyers and Maharaji.

Don't go alone, please, and don't accept any conditions from EV as part of any meeting(s).

Also, if you are offered any type of meeting, it should be on neutral territory. That is, NOT on Amaroo grounds, not at his residence(s), nor any of the EV offices.

That would be a simple power ploy which any organization and its lawyers would propose to intimidate you. Make no mistake, EV, Maharaji, and all PAMs are out to protect HIM, as well as their own jobs.

I am suggesting this because there already is an imbalance of power, vis a vis, dealing with a cult leader. If you are notified, say, that you are invited to meet with EV representatives, and their conditions are/feel uncomfortable to you, don't do it. Listen to your intuition and gut feelings about this.

Take an informed lawyer, as well as someone other than your father, for your own support and well being.

The other thing I want to convey is that I am not surprised at the quick turn-around on Cathy's part. Remember, Maharaji despises being criticized, but he also wants to save his own ass, too.

One more thing: Abi, you owe no one any more details about the abuse itself. It is not necessary to get into all of the details again; it's also not appropriate, especially now. Plus at this point it's nobody's business. Sometimes folks can forget how difficult these things are to talk about. In this regard, you are in the position of power to decide for yourself.

I hope you're holding up okay, this stuff is nerve racking under normal circumstances, and these are not normal circumstances.

Take care of yourself, and be safe,
Love,
Cynthia

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Date: Thurs, Apr 05, 2001 at 18:50:00 (GMT)
From: Zelda
Email: None
To: To Abi
Subject: Cynthias post is very important
Message:
Hi Abi

I have only been observing this topic over the months.
I might have met you briefly in India or on the plane home.

You probably know all this and I dont know much,but:
The point I want to make is that, as Cynthis says, both you and your father need to have a lawyer or support person with you if you meet with any representatives from EV
In fact, you could just send a rep yourself until talks get to the point where your depostition is required.

My experience is that the victim may use the first meeting as an opportunity to unload details of the abuse - in order to somehow substantiate the claim-- but doing this ends up working against them. Dont devluge details.
Intial conversations can be taped by EV

You have them listening and that is significant-but it will be one of a series of meetings. --and dont be swayed by Cathys sympathetic demeanor. She is not responsible for or a representative of what attitude/defense may be coming down the pike from others in EV .

Much luck
Z

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Date: Thurs, Apr 05, 2001 at 19:34:32 (GMT)
From: Joe
Email: None
To: Zelda
Subject: This is VERY important
Message:
What Cynthia and Zelda are saying is VERY important. The whole purpose of a meeting, from EV's perspective, is to see what you know, and try to pin you down to it. I would bet the meeting would be recorded, without your knowledge, which is illegal in California, but might be legal in Australia. Even if it's illegal, they still might do it.

In such a meeting, I would stick to finding out what has happened with Jagdeo, what steps EV has taken to bring him to justice and prevent further abuse, what EV intends to do about you and other victims, as well as get information on what Maharaji and EV knew about all this. If they stick with the 'we didn't know' bullshit line, I would just split.

Frankly, now that I think about it, maybe a meeting might be good for your father, but probably not for you. Demand to know if the 'other person' is a lawyer. If it is, by all means, do not go to the meeting without a lawyer yourself.

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Date: Thurs, Apr 05, 2001 at 20:07:14 (GMT)
From: Susan
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: My experience
Message:
again, EV asked me if I wanted a meeting. I said I did not need to meet with them but if they wanted to meet with me ( putting the ball in their court ) I would, but only with a witness.

Michael Dettmers, who was talking to Marcia Leitner on my behalf because of my elanvitalaphobia, relayed to me that Marcia asked if it would be Michael who would be the witness. Michael said no but didn't say who it would be. This as I recall seemed to concern them and they never asked to meet with me. I don't know if my desire for a witness was the ultimate reason. I actually asked Joe if he would go with me if they wanted to meet me and he said he would. That was the plan.

As I think about it I agree with Joe. Your dad really should have someone there who is going to be an advocate for him, and that he can trust to be objective. Because if it doesn't go well, I do not trust them at all to remember what he said, as past experience shows. Also, your Dad being a premie, he could still feel a lot of 'awe' to get Rawats personal attention if that happened, and might be easily manipulated. I hope not though, a Dads desire to protect his daughter might be stronger than any cult programming.

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Date: Thurs, Apr 05, 2001 at 14:40:01 (GMT)
From: Katie H
Email: None
To: Abi
Subject: Update: Jagdeo is now a priority
Message:
Abi, I'm really happy that the support here has helped you and your dad. Some people have questioned why we keep talking about this issue on the forum, and I think SUPPORT is the primary answer. (The discussions on the forum also may have something to do with EV's re-prioritization of the Jagdeo issue!)

Glad your dad is feeling better about the whole thing - although I also hope he gets to speak to Maharaji - as you said, he deserves it.

Take care,
Katie H.

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Date: Thurs, Apr 05, 2001 at 14:47:37 (GMT)
From: Abi
Email: None
To: Katie H
Subject: Update: Jagdeo is now a priority
Message:
Dear Katie H
Thank you for all of that. I do think that the Forum has been central in getting the Jagdeo issue into view. And I think that decent people here have made that possible.

We'll just have to see how decent EV are.

Abi

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Date: Thurs, Apr 05, 2001 at 14:54:39 (GMT)
From: Katie H.
Email: None
To: Abi
Subject: Get some rest! and...
Message:
Really glad the forum and site have helped you and opened your dad's eyes (I read the story about your dad finding EPO below). This must have been a long hard road for you.

Take care of yourself,
Katie

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Date: Thurs, Apr 05, 2001 at 08:50:19 (GMT)
From: sivan
Email: -
To: Abi
Subject: Abi, could u tell me if Cathy is an Aussie?
Message:
each time i did service at amaroo it was with a girl called Cathy, and when i went to programs in sydney, she seemed to be in an organising position. Or is it an american person?
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Date: Thurs, Apr 05, 2001 at 10:14:18 (GMT)
From: Abi
Email: None
To: sivan
Subject: Abi, could u tell me if Cathy is an Aussie?
Message:
Dear Sivan,
I'm afraid I really have no idea. Sorry.

Abi

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Date: Thurs, Apr 05, 2001 at 12:11:50 (GMT)
From: CW
Email: None
To: Abi
Subject: Cathy is an Aussie?No
Message:
The lady you speak of Sivan is from Sydney . This one is different and comes from the US
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Date: Thurs, Apr 05, 2001 at 06:53:11 (GMT)
From: janet
Email: None
To: Abi
Subject: print EV's site and policies. get a lawyer NOW
Message:
i wouldnt be surprised if they take the site down temporarily. print out all they have publicly posted on EV, especially about sexual harassment--everybody else reading this, do likewise, for backup copies to supply abi's case

expect to be offered a settlement--money in return for never speaking about it again. dont take it.
press for full justice. money can't possibly make up for what jagdeo did you you and others. it can be transmuted into a class action suit on balf of any premie child jagdeo molested. maharaji definitely has the deep pockets to pay out a class action judgement.
don't be bought off and silenced for the rest of your life.
it has further reaches than that:
if they persude you to do it, we may be forced to remove all information on the internet about it by a legal act. we don't want that.

so do not bend. refuse to settle. and refuse to be silenced, for any price.

get a good lawyer. you might even ask for one of the famous grandstanding ones.
gerry spence in wyoming
f lee bailey in california

glora allred in los angeles.

these guys love high profile cases and publicity. they make take the case because of the defendent being a fatcat like maharaji.

and if there is a lawsuit, be sure maharaji is named as the defendent. jagdeo was his employee, there at his order, and would not have been in america or UK or unity school for any other reason in his natural life except for maharaji's orders.

fight the good fight.

[Offensive comment removed by Forum Admin - Janet, be very careful with your words here, and I don't think Abi will do what you so indelicately suggested she may do]

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Date: Thurs, Apr 05, 2001 at 15:33:07 (GMT)
From: Aaln Fenstermacher
Email: alan@woodcon.com
To: janet
Subject: print EV's site and policies. get a lawyer NOW
Message:
Janet,
How can you tell her to get a lawyer and then give her legal advice - (don't accept a settlement), that is soley Abi's choice, not the choice of what we on this board want. If she is offered some kind of legal settlement or document then she needs counsel but that is her choice. Regardless of how 'good and right' a case is it takes an emotional toll that can be greater than the finacial reward. Abi's well being is more important than M's downfall or fiscal loss, and that difficult choice is Abi's to make, not anyone elses.
A-
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Date: Thurs, Apr 05, 2001 at 15:43:26 (GMT)
From: Katie H.
Email: None
To: Aaln Fenstermacher
Subject: Yes, I agree, Alan
Message:
You wrote:
Abi's well being is more important than M's downfall or fiscal loss, and that difficult choice is Abi's to make, not anyone elses.

If any ex-premie here puts the fight against Maharaji above the well-being of an individual ex-premie, than that's an example of 'ends justify means' - which is something I deplore. Abi, Susan, Michael Dettmers, and everyone else are more important to me as people than as a means to accomplish something - and I really hope other people here feel the same way.

Take care, Alan -
Katie

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Date: Thurs, Apr 05, 2001 at 06:03:25 (GMT)
From: AJW
Email: None
To: Abi
Subject: Throwing Kathy.
Message:
Hi Abi,

I don't think we should expect anything other than more of the same from them.

It will be, 'We didn't know. Neither did Captain Rawat. Of course it's terrible. We are sorry. But guess what, we ain't going to do anything about it, because we don't accept any responsibility.'

Of course, I may be wrong, it could be, 'This is terrible. We are sorry. How can we start to make it up to you and the other victims?'.

Personally, I'd trust Kathy about as far as I can throw her. She is a cult zombie protecting her master.

Anth the Libran.

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Date: Thurs, Apr 05, 2001 at 07:36:42 (GMT)
From: Abi
Email: None
To: AJW
Subject: Throwing Kathy.
Message:
Anth,

I agree with you and expect that they will just deny it all. If so then we go to plan B.

btw I am a bit puzzled by CWs post. He seems a bit hysterical.You were in London at the time right?

take care

Abi

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Date: Thurs, Apr 05, 2001 at 08:19:19 (GMT)
From: AJW
Email: None
To: Abi
Subject: Hi Abi
Message:
Maybe your dad could ask them for the results of the inquiry they had about Jagdeo in the UK.

Jethro had a phone call with Ron Jeaves about it. I think he told him Jagdeo was heavily implicated in their enquiry. Ron also contacted Angus, the old headmaster of Unity School, and had a long conversation with him about Jagdeo.

The cult have always denied they ever held this enquiry.

Catweazle does seem a little over excited at the moment doesn't he?

Take care,
Anth the grey.

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Date: Thurs, Apr 05, 2001 at 06:48:03 (GMT)
From: CW.
Email: None
To: AJW
Subject: Throwing Anth
Message:
Were you a teacher at Unity School Anth?
Did you take responsibility for the welfare of your students as most teachers do?
If so will you not be named as negligent in any proposed action -by either party? Think about that Anth who likes to snipe from the sidelines.
You reckon you know who I am. How serious do you think I might be?
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Date: Thurs, Apr 05, 2001 at 08:08:56 (GMT)
From: Abi
Email: None
To: CW.
Subject: Throwing Anth
Message:
CW,

who are you and why do you hide behind this odd name?

Dr Abigail Bray

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Date: Thurs, Apr 05, 2001 at 09:12:30 (GMT)
From: Dr Cat Weasel
Email: None
To: Abi
Subject: Throwing Anth
Message:
You 'll have to watch the English serial of the same name. The World wide web will throw you up some interesting answers. But the best is the Cheyenne legend regarding the weasel. I invite you to investigate.
I am cyberspace creature.I read a lot of what transpires here. Take my word on this - I am much better informed and connected than I have ever let on here. One thing Abi -if you need to do something do not follow the advice offered here. Do what you would do with common sense in any other circumstance.
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Date: Thurs, Apr 05, 2001 at 19:40:21 (GMT)
From: New-Age Redneck
Email: None
To: Dr Cat Weasel
Subject: You don't seem to mind now....
Message:
Letting everyone know..... HOW CONNECTED YOU ARE.... oooooh Ahhhhh. Should we be afraid, now? If you are that closely connected, YOU would likely be a defendant, too. Is THAT why you protest too much?

Connected....... what a laugh.

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Date: Thurs, Apr 05, 2001 at 10:13:02 (GMT)
From: Dr Coyote
Email: None
To: Dr Cat Weasel
Subject: secret and powerful connections
Message:

Dear weasel enigma,

So you say you have powerful connections in EV. Elsewhere? I guess you talk to the EV monitors a lot. Exchange information, strategies and so on. Do they pay you, or is this service? Why the investment? Why do you do this?

Abi

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Date: Thurs, Apr 05, 2001 at 07:12:28 (GMT)
From: AJW
Email: None
To: CW.
Subject: Yeah Cat.
Message:
Sure Cat,

It's me who's the guilty one, not Jagdeo. Call the cops, get the lawyers, Jagdeo is innocent. It's Anth who's really the sleazeball child molestor.

Is this really the best you can do pal?

Anth, trembling in fear.

PS. I don't give a fuck what your real name is Cat. You parade your cult personality regularly enough here to make it obvious where you're coming from.

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Date: Thurs, Apr 05, 2001 at 08:27:52 (GMT)
From: Pat Conlon
Email: None
To: AJW
Subject: Funny how eDRek's and my post re Catweasel
Message:
DISAPPEARED without an note from the FA saying that our posts had been edited out. I wonder if the FA is also going to edit out this post. Funny how the FA says they have to delete a whole thread and cannot delete only one post from inside of a thread. This stinks of censorship. One word -cult.
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Date: Thurs, Apr 05, 2001 at 17:17:35 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Pat Conlon
Subject: Oh shut up, Patrick!
Message:
What a stupid thing to say! You are often so smart, so witty, so cool and so nice. Then, once in while, you say something entirely stupid. This was one of those times.

Cult, my ass. Even if you think the FA's doing an absolutely terrible job pruning this tree, even if you think it never, ever needs pruning, it is such a far, far cry from that complaint to making a case that this forum is anything even akin to a cult. That's offensive premie vomit we wipe off our windshields regularly. To see you spit up from inside the car is most discouraging.

You want to argue about whether this forum is a cult? You really wnat to do that? Fine, let's do it. I'll drive that idea so far down your throat you'll never get it out. See, when premies say that, they're beyond discussion. They're impossible to get to. But if someone actually amenable to rational discussion starts saying that shit, watch out.

So, what is it? Are you joing AUT, Cat and their other anonymous friends calling the ex's a cult? Yes or no? (And no, this isn't about being a 'lily white Canadian lawyer who lived in the wrong part of California for nine years).

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Date: Thurs, Apr 05, 2001 at 18:12:16 (GMT)
From: Pat Conlon
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: No I won't shut up. The price of freedom is
Message:
keeping an eye out for my rights of free speech at all times and making sure that I am not arbitrarily shut up. But I will apologize for using the word CULT. It was simply a means to an end and I mistakenly presumed that people would see that I was being deliberately hyperbolical.

I know that shouting CULT here is hyperbolical. I know it is not a cult. I'm not a complete idiot but sometimes a bit of hyperbole will stir things up. I used the word provocatively for very good reason. It got your attention didn't it? Arbitrary censorship, if left unchecked and un-noticed, can lead to, if not a cult, at least a secret cabal.

If you had been a witness to the deletion you would have seen how arbitrary it was. There are guide lines for the deletion of posts and, as far as I could tell, this deletion did not fall within those guide-lines but was done by suddenly changing the rules and we all know who changes the rules to suit themselves and does not abide by rules of social accountability.

The FA warned us that off-topic Catweasel posts would be deleted as well as those down-stream from his posts. However Catweasel's post was not deleted but eDreks's and mine were.

eDrek posted a message calling peoples' attention to the fact that Catweasel has re-invented himself as the respectable CW and should not be allowed to do so. I responded to him to back him up because I feel that new (or less observant) readers will be duped by this new shiny CW. He needs to be indentified as the trouble maker that he has been all along.

Of course FV is not a cult. If it were I would not be posting here but arbitrarily enforced censorship by invisible elves (the FAs) who are not accountable for their actions can lead to worse and I for one will always be a whistle-blower. How can such arbitrary censorship be trusted? It's a slippery slope.

Perhaps the FA would care to explain why he/she deleted those posts and perhaps should have done that when he/she first did it rather than give the impression that it is censorship by whim. The posts in themselves were not that important but were certainly more important than entire threads about astrology and definitely more on-topic.

A stitch in time saves nine.

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Date: Thurs, Apr 05, 2001 at 20:24:32 (GMT)
From: Forum Admin
Email: None
To: Pat Conlon
Subject: I deleted one Catweasel Post
Message:
your's and Roger's were downwind.

Forum Admin

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Date: Thurs, Apr 05, 2001 at 18:22:09 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Pat Conlon
Subject: The price of freedom is credibility
Message:
If this was a post-slavery forum you'd be quite the asshole accusing us of being slavemasters, wouldn't you? So what if you just did so to 'get attention'? You get lots of attention, Pat. I don't think you can fairly say you're ignored here.

So your real complaint is one of 'censorship', right? Does censorship imply cult? No, of course not. Although all cults censor (for argument's sake, at least) it is not at all the case that all cases of censorship suggest the existence of cults. Hardly.

Sorry, Pat, but especially here where we have actual cult members like AUT making their ridiculous arguments that this ex-cult site is somehow itself a cult, we sure don't need you doing the same for whatever reason. Think about it.

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Date: Thurs, Apr 05, 2001 at 18:16:42 (GMT)
From: Pat Conlon
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: PS Jim, you were being unfair to bring up
Message:
that bit from a past spat with you. I have apologized for that and made it absolutely clear that I was very wrong to say those things to you. I do not like to revisit old arguments that I have lost and apologized for already.
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Date: Thurs, Apr 05, 2001 at 18:24:31 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Pat Conlon
Subject: No, it wasn't unfair
Message:
Pat,

You blasted me personally with irresponsible hyperbole. Here, you've insulted all of us likewise. I'm sorry but I take great offence to another ex especially suggesting that this forum, which is anything but a cult, for god's sake, is one.

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Date: Thurs, Apr 05, 2001 at 18:47:45 (GMT)
From: Pat Conlon
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: So, I'm wrong again and I apologize
Message:
I guess it was a bit like shouting ''fire'' in a crowded theater. But I've never minded being shown that I am wrong. I've always been the sort of person who does not mind being the first to stick my neck out and make mistakes that others learn from. I'm just a very timid person.

And I concede that you still have a bit of mileage on my previous unfair attack on you but you're only allowed to bring it up two more times. You are one of the few people here with whom I am comfortable being confrontational towards because you can see through it immediately and call my bluff. I did use you as a scapegoat and I again apologize but as I said only two more times.

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Date: Thurs, Apr 05, 2001 at 18:52:07 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Pat Conlon
Subject: So, I'm wrong again and I apologize
Message:
You're alright, Pat. I never thought otherwise.

The only reason I brought the other up was because I thought there was some relevance. I don't know why the FA cut your comments as he did. I'm sure it was a good-faith call on his part although that's never much of an answer if you think you've been short-changed.

But only two more times, huh? Well, can I use THIS one, this 'cult' thing, a couple of more times beyond that? Please, Pat, you gotta leave me something here.

Jim
The Recent Ex-Premie's Friend

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Date: Thurs, Apr 05, 2001 at 19:04:07 (GMT)
From: Pat Conlon
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Jim, you're insatiable
Message:
I never accuse the exes of being a cult. I simply dropped a provocative phrase in anger. All I said was: ''One word - cult.'' No actual finger-pointing. More like ''if the shoe fits - wear it.'' And that was directed towards the FA's arbitrary authoritarianism or cult-like thinking.

But I won't use the word again in connection with anything other than the real culprits. Promise.

PS I hope you don't always keep score like this. Yeah, I know you do. So do I.

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Date: Thurs, Apr 05, 2001 at 21:35:14 (GMT)
From: Marianne
Email: None
To: Pat Conlon
Subject: Yes, Jim, is insatiable-how did you know?-nt
Message:
xxxxx
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Date: Thurs, Apr 05, 2001 at 14:36:47 (GMT)
From: Katie H.
Email: None
To: Pat Conlon
Subject: You CAN'T just delete one post from a thread!
Message:
Unless no one has answered it. That is the truth re the software that we use here. If you want posts about Catweasel to stay, then don't post them as replies. It's just a fact, Pat, not 'cult censorship'.
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Date: Thurs, Apr 05, 2001 at 20:10:44 (GMT)
From: Roger eDrek
Email: drek@oz.net
To: Katie H.
Subject: No complaints from me about the CW deletes
Message:
That Catweasel (sometimes referring to himself as CW) is like those obnoxious male cats who sprays the house. Fine with me it the FA cleans up his spray.
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Date: Fri, Apr 06, 2001 at 03:15:19 (GMT)
From: Catweaesel/CW/Victoria Bi
Email: tter!!
To: Roger eDrek
Subject: No complaints from me about the CW deletes
Message:
And your the foxy little pussy I'll sink my teeth into's neck. And then I'll scream to the whole neighborhood from under Pat Conlon's windows as I give you a lesson in supply and demand

'Name the Kittens after meeeeeeee !!!!!!!!!!!

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Date: Fri, Apr 06, 2001 at 03:28:52 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Catweaesel/CW/Victoria Bi
Subject: FA, can't we get rid of this piece of shit?
Message:
What's the problem? He posts from more than one location or something? This is a threat and he's clearly spent years harrassing people here. I'm sure that if you persuaded even one of his ISP's, if he has more than one, to cancel his account, you could then use that precedent with the rest.

I got Mili cancelled years ago and it worked. He backed off even after he got back online. Cat has no respect for this forum at all and he apparently laughs at you guys. If you'd like someone to contact his ISP on your behalf, I'd love to. But this forum doesn't deserve this kind of menacing bullshit. Sure, those of us who've been around for a while know that Cat's got no teeth but new people might not see that. Something should be done, I figure. Don't you?

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Date: Fri, Apr 06, 2001 at 05:18:01 (GMT)
From: CW
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: No-one is going to see the menance in that
Message:
Well known Robin Williams gag about his Cat. You try tooo hard Jim Tooo Hard
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Date: Fri, Apr 06, 2001 at 04:09:29 (GMT)
From: Nigel
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: YES ... as good an example as any to date.
Message:
Surely evidence beyond doubt Catweasel has no business here - and agreed with Jim about the further action.
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Date: Thurs, Apr 05, 2001 at 10:24:22 (GMT)
From: Forum Admin
Email: None
To: Pat Conlon
Subject: I did warn you
Message:
When I warned Catweasel about only posting on-topic, I said that other posts would be deleted, including all responses. The post deleted was purely an attack on Anth. All responses are deleted automatically by the forum software.

Censorship? Yes, definitely, and you, Pat are one the most vehement proponents of censorship on this forum.

Cult? Don't be silly:-)

Anyway, respond to Catweasel's rantings at your peril.

Forum Admin

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Date: Thurs, Apr 05, 2001 at 12:15:56 (GMT)
From: CW
Email: None
To: Forum Admin
Subject: I did warn you
Message:
It was the postion I would take on Anth as an LLB and guess what......
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Date: Thurs, Apr 05, 2001 at 20:08:38 (GMT)
From: Roger eDrek
Email: drek@oz.net
To: CW
Subject: CW? Is that CATWEASEL? FA, QUESTION?
Message:
It looks like our fiend Catweasel is posting with more than one alias again.

He's such a naughty boy.

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Date: Thurs, Apr 05, 2001 at 17:06:12 (GMT)
From: Bazza
Email: None
To: CW
Subject: I did warn you
Message:
What's an LLB?

Hi Cat. What happened to our chat on AG? Oh well, guess I'm not bright enough for you to consider worthy.

have a good 'un.

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Date: Thurs, Apr 05, 2001 at 07:00:16 (GMT)
From: jabet
Email: None
To: CW.
Subject: he may be, and he will be exonerated. and thats
Message:
only if the suit is brought in the UK where that chapeter of abuse took place. it also needs to be venued in Denver for that Unity School.

Anth was not the one who abused the kids.

He taught maharaji's kids--remember? would maharaji have such a teacher with his kids?

not likely

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Date: Thurs, Apr 05, 2001 at 05:01:02 (GMT)
From: Tonette
Email: None
To: Abi
Subject: I think your father should have a lawyer too. nt
Message:
nt
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Date: Thurs, Apr 05, 2001 at 04:49:24 (GMT)
From: Pat Conlon
Email: None
To: Abi
Subject: Abi, I'd like to see this resolved for your sake
Message:
I know that the exes want to see justice being done but mostly I am hoping that you will get satisfaction and be compensated for the pain that you have suffered.
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Date: Thurs, Apr 05, 2001 at 05:05:46 (GMT)
From: Mercedes
Email: None
To: Abi
Subject: I'd like to see this resolved for your sake too NT
Message:
NNN
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Date: Thurs, Apr 05, 2001 at 04:37:13 (GMT)
From: Jean-Michel
Email: None
To: Abi
Subject: I'm glad to hear this !!
Message:
Looks like something happened !!!
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Date: Thurs, Apr 05, 2001 at 04:35:51 (GMT)
From: TD
Email: None
To: Abi
Subject: I don't think Cathy has behaved at all decently...
Message:
as it's obviously only because of you writing about this matter on the forum and the EV monitors reading it, that she has been prompted to act. If she really was decent, she would have responded the first time your father gave her the letter.

Nope - she'll have to do a hell of a lot better than that to prove to me that she actually gives a shit about the victims of Jagdeo - her boss's paedophiliac mate.

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Date: Thurs, Apr 05, 2001 at 05:12:51 (GMT)
From: Francesca
Email: None
To: TD and Abi
Subject: Cathy was pressured / auto brainwashing
Message:
I believe that Cathy was pressured rather than acting from her heart or from human decency, but of course I wasn't there. We can all put on the 'decent' act, because there is decency within, even if our intentions are not decent. I hope that makes sense. I guess another way of saying it is that even rather horrible people (or good people under the control of horrible people) have some decency inside. They can tap it at times and shine it out of the ol' eyes and face, but they aren't to be trusted.

I am really glad that it appears they are making a gesture towards addressing this issue. I do believe that your efforts combined with the Forum is what is the fuel behind all this. Even the EV monitors are watching this one. So, perhaps, are premies like Erika. Abi, Susan, Dettmers and everyone -- good work, and don't let up on the pressure! All you lurkers out there, stay tuned!

But be careful about the meeting. And don't sign anything that hasn't been reviewed by your own lawyer. It will be interesting to see whether you can get through to 'the boss.' Abi -- you and your father are brave to be doing this. You because of what you've suffered, him because he also suffered and has a lot to lose if Rawat lets him down in so dramatic a fashion.

I stopped believing in Rawat's lordship before I moved out of the ashram in 1982, but it took several more years for all the programming to wear off. The bill of goods we sell ourselves is the hardest to divest ourselves of. I believe that the essential part of brainwashing it to get us to continue brainwashing ourselves -- auto brainwashing -- just needing a little programmed stimili of one sort or another to keep us going. I believe that is essential to cults. They can't go everywhere with us, but we go everywhere with ourselves.

That is part of the puzzle of why people who are otherwise intelligent and should know better coo and goo at the hamster babble.

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Date: Thurs, Apr 05, 2001 at 07:32:12 (GMT)
From: Pat Conlon
Email: None
To: Francesca
Subject: Powerful analysis, Francesca
Message:
You said: ''I believe that Cathy was pressured rather than acting from her heart or from human decency, but of course I wasn't there. We can all put on the 'decent' act, because there is decency within, even if our intentions are not decent. I hope that makes sense.''

It makes a lot of sense to me.

And you continued: ''I believe that the essential part of brainwashing it to get us to continue brainwashing ourselves -- auto brainwashing -- just needing a little programmed stimili of one sort or another to keep us going. I believe that is essential to cults.''

The whole of your post exuded common sense and heartfelt conviction but I only wanted to comment on those aspects of it.

Whether the EV officers believe that he is ''greater than god'' or the ineffable ''Master'' is almost beside the point. The fact remains that he is their BOSS, the big cheese. They may not care to define what exactly he is, but Rev Rawat is a very powerful presence in the cult whose word must be obeyed. It is totally creepy and completely alien to any sane, democratic westerner. It is precisely this lack of democratic feedback that has allowed the Rawat Family Farce to continue for so long in the west.

This EV officer, Cathy, is behaving true to cult conditioning and, as you so rightly point out, it is auto-brainwashing - probably brought about through fear. That smell of fear of Rev Rawat mixed with the syruppy devotion is what stinks the most. Decent people begin to behave badly. Their loyalty is to the BOSS and fuck everyone else in a civilized society. You have heard the premies who post here brazenly express their disdain for the norms of common decency and civil standards. Even more than that these cultists are willing to betray their fellow human beings.

If the premies who post here (mainly the braggards, Catweasel and Turner) claim that Cathy is in a cult because she has created one in her own mind and that Rev Rawat does not approve of the church ladies of EV then I would say to them: ''Then, if Rawat is so human, democratic, ordinary and approachable, why don't you tell him when he does things wrong? Or does he do no wrong in your eyes?''

But I think they will not see wrong in him because they too display all the earmarks of cult brainwashing: disdain for their fellow humans and for civilized society, fear-biting, paranoia, braggadacio and self-righteousness.

It is not their fault. Cultists are truly ''in their minds'' (meaning thinking nonsense) and ''out of touch with their hearts'' because they are denying their individuality and independence and have swallowed the urug's concepts hook, line and bloody sinker. Their heads are full of his amoral Hindu nonsense.


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Date: Thurs, Apr 05, 2001 at 22:20:09 (GMT)
From: Katie Darling
Email: None
To: Pat Conlon
Subject: Powerful analysis, Francesca, and it's a spell!
Message:
Yes, I was also very struck by the 'decent' discussion. It made me think of Judy Osborne who seems to have been one of the cover-up people in this case. I knew her. Definitely decent. Exudes decency, in fact.

And then I was thinking about myself. Sitting in an ashram in Uruguay or somewhere in the 70's, having been told to give 'heavy satsang' to the aspirants to prepare them for Knowledge, while the Mahatma went sightseeing. I'm a decent person. But I was under a spell. An absolute spell.

We all remember moments or long periods when the 'spell' compromised our decency. Yes, Abi, be careful!

love Katie Darling

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Date: Fri, Apr 06, 2001 at 01:12:07 (GMT)
From: Pat Conlon
Email: None
To: Katie Darling
Subject: Katie D, you're story reminded me of one
Message:
An initiator was visiting Durban to give K reviews. She told me not to let anyone into the room if they arrived late. Well, of course someone did - a sweet little old lady whom I was fond of. I had to tell her to leave. It nearly broke my heart.

When I went back to the satsang room and told the bitch of an initiator who it was she made me run after her and bring her back. It was the only white premie in Durban and she had loads of money. Sickening.

How are you? I hope recovering and soon to come and visit me.

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Date: Thurs, Apr 05, 2001 at 05:52:36 (GMT)
From: Abi
Email: None
To: Francesca
Subject: Still hope to meet Maharaji though
Message:
I hope that we do meet Maharaji. I want to know what he personally thinks about Jagdeo. I have lots of questions I want to ask. I know my father would appreciate it a great deal if Maharaji respected him enough to talk to him about all of this. He wrote the letter as one father to another and I hope that this means something to Maharaji. I will be very dissapointed if Maharaji does not meet him. My father often passes him at Amaroo while he's doing service there. He could have given the letter directly to him but chose to go through the appropriate chanels.

I'll keep you posted.

Got to sleep. This is exhausting.

Abi

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Date: Fri, Apr 06, 2001 at 22:32:38 (GMT)
From: Francesca
Email: None
To: Abi
Subject: Thanks for keeping us informed - love f n/t
Message:
n/t
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Date: Thurs, Apr 05, 2001 at 07:11:18 (GMT)
From: janet
Email: None
To: Abi
Subject: my guess is you will not. probly well send
Message:
lawyers or honchos to sweet talk you and your father out of it:
!!! don't go without a lawyer !!! please!!!
even if maharaji is named as a defendent, he could still weasel out of appearing, by letting his lawyers appear for him in court.
and they would counsel against him talking to you in person, because anything he might say to you would queer the deal in court.
he isnt gonna risk that! he has too much at stake here!
try to put on your full armor and take off your rose colored glasses. divest yourself of hopefull illusions. that's how we all got suckered into this in the first place!
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