Forum V: Archive
Compiled: Thurs, Apr 12, 2001 at 23:29:13 (GMT)
From: Mar 31, 2001 To: Apr 11, 2001 Page: 2 Of: 5


Babs -:- Show and Tell -:- Sat, Apr 07, 2001 at 00:00:51 (GMT)
__ Jim -:- Show and Tell -:- Tues, Apr 10, 2001 at 20:26:25 (GMT)
__ Cynthia -:- Babs, Tim G. and Robyn...WOW -:- Sun, Apr 08, 2001 at 15:41:47 (GMT)
__ AJW -:- Which one's Nelson? -:- Sun, Apr 08, 2001 at 08:21:35 (GMT)
__ Kelly -:- Show and Tell -:- Sat, Apr 07, 2001 at 21:54:05 (GMT)
__ __ Babs -:- I can't wait ... -:- Sat, Apr 07, 2001 at 23:13:47 (GMT)
__ __ __ Kelly -:- I can't wait ... -:- Sun, Apr 08, 2001 at 14:58:20 (GMT)
__ such -:- Thanks! got me in good mood on road to Mandalay(nt -:- Sat, Apr 07, 2001 at 20:28:40 (GMT)
__ __ Babs -:- Give my regards to Mandalay! nt -:- Sat, Apr 07, 2001 at 23:23:52 (GMT)
__ __ __ such -:- ...remember me to Her old Squire (nt -:- Mon, Apr 09, 2001 at 01:29:30 (GMT)
__ Katie H -:- Babs, thank YOU for the inspiration. -:- Sat, Apr 07, 2001 at 16:06:14 (GMT)
__ __ Katie H. -:- P.S. and I really liked the media, too. -:- Sat, Apr 07, 2001 at 16:10:55 (GMT)
__ __ __ Babs -:- Show me yours! -:- Sat, Apr 07, 2001 at 23:49:09 (GMT)
__ Mike Finch -:- Mandala Sites -:- Sat, Apr 07, 2001 at 13:13:03 (GMT)
__ __ Babs -:- Mandala Sites -:- Sun, Apr 08, 2001 at 00:05:14 (GMT)
__ Tim G -:- Show and Tell -:- Sat, Apr 07, 2001 at 09:16:03 (GMT)
__ __ Babs -:- Wow. Really BIG Wow. -:- Sun, Apr 08, 2001 at 00:45:10 (GMT)
__ Robyn -:- Show and Tell -:- Sat, Apr 07, 2001 at 03:29:15 (GMT)
__ __ Babs -:- Thanks for visiting -:- Sat, Apr 07, 2001 at 04:59:29 (GMT)
__ __ __ Robyn -:- to Babs and Salam -:- Sat, Apr 07, 2001 at 11:16:49 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Salam -:- anything for you me darling -:- Sat, Apr 07, 2001 at 17:32:48 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Robyn -:- here it is Babs, well the post from Salam -:- Sat, Apr 07, 2001 at 18:56:26 (GMT)
__ Helen -:- Show and Tell -:- Sat, Apr 07, 2001 at 03:07:46 (GMT)
__ __ Babs -:- Thanks for visiting -:- Sat, Apr 07, 2001 at 05:20:15 (GMT)
__ __ __ Helen -:- too high standards--a ticket to hell -:- Mon, Apr 09, 2001 at 01:33:35 (GMT)
__ Roy -:- Show and Tell -:- Sat, Apr 07, 2001 at 01:39:04 (GMT)
__ __ Babs -:- Thanks for visiting -:- Sat, Apr 07, 2001 at 05:23:36 (GMT)
__ Richard -:- Show and Tell - wonderful -:- Sat, Apr 07, 2001 at 01:33:10 (GMT)
__ __ Babs -:- Thanks for visiting -:- Sat, Apr 07, 2001 at 05:46:30 (GMT)
__ Pat Conlon -:- Babs, the writer and the artist! -:- Sat, Apr 07, 2001 at 01:26:51 (GMT)
__ __ Robyn -:- Babs, the writer and the artist! -:- Sat, Apr 07, 2001 at 11:20:23 (GMT)
__ __ __ Pat Conlon -:- Robyn, was that a piece of your jewelry? -:- Sat, Apr 07, 2001 at 18:02:33 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Babs -:- Not just beautiful and delicate... -:- Sun, Apr 08, 2001 at 01:04:24 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Katie H -:- The labrys? symbol -:- Sun, Apr 08, 2001 at 02:53:43 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Robyn -:- Robyn, was that a piece of your jewelry? -:- Sat, Apr 07, 2001 at 18:58:42 (GMT)
__ __ Babs -:- Thanks for visiting -:- Sat, Apr 07, 2001 at 05:55:58 (GMT)
__ __ __ Pat Conlon -:- I cheat, Babs -:- Sat, Apr 07, 2001 at 07:46:49 (GMT)
__ __ Joy -:- How Do You Do That, Patrick? -:- Sat, Apr 07, 2001 at 04:47:57 (GMT)
__ __ __ Babs -:- Thanks for visiting -:- Sat, Apr 07, 2001 at 06:09:59 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Tim G -:- Congrats Babs -:- Sat, Apr 07, 2001 at 13:38:32 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Babs -:- Thanx Tim -:- Sat, Apr 07, 2001 at 23:01:01 (GMT)
__ __ __ Pat Conlon -:- Joy, with Windows you right click but Mac not sure -:- Sat, Apr 07, 2001 at 05:05:25 (GMT)
__ Selene -:- thanks Babs nice work I hoped it helped! nt -:- Sat, Apr 07, 2001 at 00:30:09 (GMT)
__ __ Babs -:- Thanks for visiting -:- Sat, Apr 07, 2001 at 06:25:01 (GMT)
__ __ __ Selene -:- I will - lots of weeds to pull -:- Sat, Apr 07, 2001 at 22:32:24 (GMT)
__ __ Zelda -:- Wow-whats the medium?? NT -:- Sat, Apr 07, 2001 at 03:48:27 (GMT)
__ __ __ Babs -:- Not exactly computer-generated, huh? -:- Sat, Apr 07, 2001 at 04:48:59 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Zelda -:- Not exactly computer-generated, huh? -:- Sat, Apr 07, 2001 at 05:56:38 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Babs -:- Further reading -:- Sat, Apr 07, 2001 at 06:49:38 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Zelda -:- Further reading -:- Sun, Apr 08, 2001 at 06:49:13 (GMT)
__ Mercedes -:- They are beautiful - nt- -:- Sat, Apr 07, 2001 at 00:26:57 (GMT)
__ __ Babs -:- Thank you, Mercedes - nt -:- Sat, Apr 07, 2001 at 06:28:51 (GMT)
__ __ __ Disculta Darling -:- Wow Babs -:- Sat, Apr 07, 2001 at 17:03:19 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Babs -:- Good morning! Glad you could make it! -:- Sat, Apr 07, 2001 at 22:53:59 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Katie Darling -:- Good morning! Glad you could make it! -:- Sun, Apr 08, 2001 at 03:31:05 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ bill--Great Art! -:- Hi Babs, Thanks for the link and the thread.nt -:- Mon, Apr 09, 2001 at 12:59:11 (GMT)

Nigel -:- Arrested development (but released on bail) -:- Fri, Apr 06, 2001 at 23:54:35 (GMT)
__ Katie H -:- Another ***BEST OF FORUM*** to Nigel -:- Tues, Apr 10, 2001 at 12:02:33 (GMT)
__ __ Nigel -:- Ta, Katie, and others below.Good to let off steam! -:- Tues, Apr 10, 2001 at 16:58:21 (GMT)
__ Gail -:- Thanks for blowing my socks off, Nigel. (nt) -:- Mon, Apr 09, 2001 at 17:40:46 (GMT)
__ __ Nige -:- Hosiery removal all part of service ma'am nt;) -:- Tues, Apr 10, 2001 at 00:23:39 (GMT)
__ Joe -:- You're a very good man, Nigel -:- Sun, Apr 08, 2001 at 18:55:31 (GMT)
__ __ bill -:- That could be said about you too Joe...nt -:- Mon, Apr 09, 2001 at 12:50:38 (GMT)
__ bill -:- Arrested development (but released on bail) -:- Sun, Apr 08, 2001 at 04:39:11 (GMT)
__ Helen -:- Arrested development (but released on bail) -:- Sat, Apr 07, 2001 at 03:45:00 (GMT)
__ moldy warp -:- nige - OT -:- Sat, Apr 07, 2001 at 02:23:11 (GMT)
__ __ Nigel -:- mold - OT -:- Sat, Apr 07, 2001 at 08:21:07 (GMT)
__ __ __ moldy warp -:- Nige OT -:- Sat, Apr 07, 2001 at 11:43:39 (GMT)
__ Pat Conlon -:- Now, Nige, you know you don't envy New Age -:- Sat, Apr 07, 2001 at 01:14:02 (GMT)
__ __ moldy warp -:- Pat you agnostic ignoramous -:- Sat, Apr 07, 2001 at 01:23:50 (GMT)
__ __ __ Pat Conlon -:- Moldy, you shameless flatterer -:- Sat, Apr 07, 2001 at 01:33:08 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ moldy warp -:- Moldy, you shameless flatterer -:- Sat, Apr 07, 2001 at 01:45:12 (GMT)
__ moldy warp -:- Nige - Chop that wood, carry water... -:- Sat, Apr 07, 2001 at 00:20:45 (GMT)
__ __ Nigel -:- Nige - Chop that wood, carry water... -:- Sat, Apr 07, 2001 at 00:47:17 (GMT)
__ __ __ moldy warp -:- Nige - Chop that wood, carry water... -:- Sat, Apr 07, 2001 at 01:19:39 (GMT)
__ Selene -:- Arrested development (but released on bail) -:- Sat, Apr 07, 2001 at 00:06:04 (GMT)

Peter -:- Child Abuse. -:- Fri, Apr 06, 2001 at 22:49:54 (GMT)
__ Sir Dave -:- Child Abuse. -:- Sat, Apr 07, 2001 at 08:23:58 (GMT)
__ Cynthia -:- Child Abuse. -:- Fri, Apr 06, 2001 at 23:51:07 (GMT)
__ __ Selene -:- yet another idea to get rid of, for me -:- Sat, Apr 07, 2001 at 00:02:24 (GMT)
__ Forum Administrator -:- Child Abuse. -:- Fri, Apr 06, 2001 at 23:09:40 (GMT)
__ moldy warp -:- EVERYONE READ PETER'S POST! -:- Fri, Apr 06, 2001 at 23:08:50 (GMT)
__ __ bill -:- Agreed...Calling her majesty's subjects...nt -:- Sun, Apr 08, 2001 at 04:41:48 (GMT)

Archie McDonald -:- For Chistsake somebody grab the Cognac -:- Fri, Apr 06, 2001 at 10:03:27 (GMT)
__ janet -:- For Chistsake somebody grab the Cognac -:- Fri, Apr 06, 2001 at 12:05:58 (GMT)
__ AJW -:- Now here's a plan. -:- Fri, Apr 06, 2001 at 10:26:27 (GMT)
__ __ janet -:- Now here's a plan. -:- Fri, Apr 06, 2001 at 12:10:48 (GMT)
__ __ __ Way -:- Maharaji, if you are reading here today... -:- Fri, Apr 06, 2001 at 14:57:01 (GMT)

Pat Conlon -:- Rev Rawat's ''Knowledge'' is a perversion -:- Fri, Apr 06, 2001 at 04:58:18 (GMT)
__ Cynthia -:- Pat, thanks for your post... -:- Sat, Apr 07, 2001 at 19:43:24 (GMT)
__ __ PatC -:- Above post FROM cynthia TO PatC -:- Sat, Apr 07, 2001 at 20:35:42 (GMT)
__ Joe -:- Not so sure, Pat -:- Sat, Apr 07, 2001 at 19:34:23 (GMT)
__ __ PatC -:- Joe, I think your post deserves more of a response -:- Sat, Apr 07, 2001 at 20:39:27 (GMT)
__ __ __ PatC -:- ......and here it is -:- Sun, Apr 08, 2001 at 17:33:47 (GMT)
__ CD -:- light -:- Sat, Apr 07, 2001 at 11:17:18 (GMT)
__ __ Pat Conlon -:- CD, when Rawat stopped satsang he silenced us -:- Sat, Apr 07, 2001 at 20:11:02 (GMT)
__ __ Bryn -:- light -:- Sat, Apr 07, 2001 at 15:42:47 (GMT)
__ __ __ Pat Conlon -:- light -:- Sat, Apr 07, 2001 at 17:43:56 (GMT)
__ __ Jim -:- Hey, CD, trying to have a one-way discussion? -:- Sat, Apr 07, 2001 at 13:47:04 (GMT)
__ Bryn -:- K techniques numb individuality -:- Fri, Apr 06, 2001 at 19:42:13 (GMT)
__ __ Pat Conlon -:- K techniques cause mental conflict and confusion -:- Sat, Apr 07, 2001 at 01:40:51 (GMT)
__ __ __ Joe -:- Not 'techniques.' -:- Sat, Apr 07, 2001 at 20:00:19 (GMT)
__ __ __ moldy warp -:- K techniques cause mental conflict and confusion -:- Sat, Apr 07, 2001 at 02:07:27 (GMT)
__ Joy -:- Awesome Post--EVERYONE PLEASE READ PATs POST! -:- Fri, Apr 06, 2001 at 18:53:45 (GMT)
__ __ Pat Conlon -:- Joy, I really started writing those notes for you -:- Fri, Apr 06, 2001 at 18:57:58 (GMT)
__ Bobby -:- meditation - not just for relaxation -:- Fri, Apr 06, 2001 at 18:27:21 (GMT)
__ __ Pat Conlon -:- Bobby re tantra -:- Fri, Apr 06, 2001 at 20:03:56 (GMT)
__ __ Gregg -:- relaxation and meditation -:- Fri, Apr 06, 2001 at 18:46:52 (GMT)
__ __ __ Pat Conlon -:- relaxation and meditation, Bobby and Gregg -:- Fri, Apr 06, 2001 at 18:54:38 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Helen -:- mental health is numero uno -:- Sat, Apr 07, 2001 at 03:30:40 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Helen -:- mental health is numero uno part 2 -:- Sat, Apr 07, 2001 at 03:52:33 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Cynthia -:- Helen, I'd be very interested in your diagram... -:- Sat, Apr 07, 2001 at 19:16:49 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Pat Conlon -:- Yes, Helen, I'd like to see your diagram -:- Sat, Apr 07, 2001 at 05:19:51 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Helen -:- my theory (or diagram) -:- Mon, Apr 09, 2001 at 02:13:00 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Helen -:- my theory (or diagram) part2 -:- Mon, Apr 09, 2001 at 02:52:24 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Pat Conlon -:- Helen, please repost this as a NEW THREAD -:- Mon, Apr 09, 2001 at 08:03:57 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Bobby -:- spirituality and mental health -:- Fri, Apr 06, 2001 at 20:07:44 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Pat Conlon -:- spirituality and mental health -:- Sat, Apr 07, 2001 at 00:00:34 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Gregg -:- mental health is number one: Yes! (nt) -:- Fri, Apr 06, 2001 at 19:52:13 (GMT)
__ Steve Quint -:- Rev Rawat's ''Knowledge'' is a perversion -:- Fri, Apr 06, 2001 at 18:19:02 (GMT)
__ Jim -:- Thanks for the background, Pat (nt) -:- Fri, Apr 06, 2001 at 17:39:45 (GMT)
__ Katie H -:- Rev Rawat's simplified ''Knowledge'' -:- Fri, Apr 06, 2001 at 16:34:23 (GMT)
__ __ Bobby -:- Differences with K presentation -:- Fri, Apr 06, 2001 at 17:43:47 (GMT)
__ __ __ Katie H -:- Differences with K presentation -:- Fri, Apr 06, 2001 at 17:45:54 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Bobby -:- Differences with K presentation -:- Fri, Apr 06, 2001 at 18:35:28 (GMT)
__ Mike Finch -:- Rev Rawat's ''Knowledge'' is a perversion -:- Fri, Apr 06, 2001 at 14:56:32 (GMT)
__ __ Bobby -:- post-K spirituality -:- Fri, Apr 06, 2001 at 17:58:20 (GMT)
__ __ Jean-Michel -:- Vipassana + m's techniques -:- Fri, Apr 06, 2001 at 17:39:16 (GMT)
__ __ Pat Conlon -:- Hi, Mike, -:- Fri, Apr 06, 2001 at 17:35:51 (GMT)
__ __ __ Katie H. -:- Pat, please read JHB and my posts re 'agenda' (nt) -:- Fri, Apr 06, 2001 at 17:43:58 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Pat Conlon -:- Katie H and JHB re Forum agenda -:- Fri, Apr 06, 2001 at 17:59:28 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Katie H -:- Thanks, Pat -:- Sat, Apr 07, 2001 at 01:32:29 (GMT)
__ __ Berni -:- Rev Rawat's ''Knowledge'' is a perversion -:- Fri, Apr 06, 2001 at 16:50:38 (GMT)
__ __ __ Mike Finch -:- Rev Rawat's ''Knowledge'' is a perversion -:- Fri, Apr 06, 2001 at 19:20:15 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ berni -:- Rev Rawat's ''Knowledge'' is a perversion -:- Fri, Apr 06, 2001 at 19:26:08 (GMT)
__ __ __ Katie H -:- Rev Rawat's ''Knowledge'' is a perversion -:- Fri, Apr 06, 2001 at 16:56:52 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ berni -:- Rev Rawat's ''Knowledge'' is a perversion -:- Fri, Apr 06, 2001 at 19:13:21 (GMT)
__ __ Jerry -:- Not off topic, Mike -:- Fri, Apr 06, 2001 at 16:12:49 (GMT)
__ __ __ Katie H -:- Jerry, re meditation -:- Fri, Apr 06, 2001 at 16:21:00 (GMT)
__ __ JHB -:- I agree Mike, and disagree, Pat. -:- Fri, Apr 06, 2001 at 16:02:16 (GMT)
__ __ __ PatC -:- You are right, John. Thanks for clearing that up. -:- Sat, Apr 07, 2001 at 23:40:21 (GMT)
__ __ __ Joe -:- Thanks, John, I completely agree (nt) -:- Sat, Apr 07, 2001 at 19:49:30 (GMT)
__ __ __ Katie H -:- Thanks, John, well put! (nt) -:- Fri, Apr 06, 2001 at 16:12:17 (GMT)
__ __ Katie H. -:- Pat and Mike - 'Main Agenda?' -:- Fri, Apr 06, 2001 at 16:00:04 (GMT)
__ __ Way -:- Rev Rawat's meditation -:- Fri, Apr 06, 2001 at 15:31:45 (GMT)
__ Wildflower -:- Rev Rawat's ''Knowledge'' is a perversion -:- Fri, Apr 06, 2001 at 14:14:19 (GMT)
__ AJW -:- Pat, fancy a discussion? -:- Fri, Apr 06, 2001 at 09:58:42 (GMT)
__ __ Pat Conlon -:- Pat, fancy a discussion? Sure, Anth but -:- Fri, Apr 06, 2001 at 17:48:25 (GMT)
__ __ __ AJW -:- It got crowded. -:- Fri, Apr 06, 2001 at 19:07:56 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Pat Conlon -:- Bonne weekend to you to, dear Anth -:- Fri, Apr 06, 2001 at 19:40:31 (GMT)
__ mark -:- Rev Rawat's ''Knowledge'' is nothing -:- Fri, Apr 06, 2001 at 05:21:34 (GMT)
__ __ AJW -:- Poetic posts. -:- Fri, Apr 06, 2001 at 10:02:06 (GMT)
__ __ Pat Conlon -:- Baie dankie my seuntjie -:- Fri, Apr 06, 2001 at 07:06:42 (GMT)
__ Mercedes -:- Rev Rawat's ''Knowledge'' is a perversion -:- Fri, Apr 06, 2001 at 05:15:19 (GMT)
__ __ AJW -:- A message from the Lowlands. -:- Fri, Apr 06, 2001 at 10:21:49 (GMT)
__ __ Tonette -:- Yes, it can be very hard -:- Fri, Apr 06, 2001 at 07:52:52 (GMT)
__ __ Connie -:- Rev Rawat's ''Knowledge'' is a perversion -:- Fri, Apr 06, 2001 at 07:25:37 (GMT)
__ __ __ Katie H -:- Mercedes and Connie -:- Fri, Apr 06, 2001 at 16:10:56 (GMT)
__ __ __ Pat Conlon -:- Hey, every body gets the blues -:- Fri, Apr 06, 2001 at 08:10:53 (GMT)
__ __ Pat Conlon -:- Hi Mercedes, let's talk by email about that -:- Fri, Apr 06, 2001 at 07:10:34 (GMT)
__ __ Babs -:- Breathing while walking -:- Fri, Apr 06, 2001 at 06:03:30 (GMT)
__ __ __ Pat Conlon -:- Breathing while walking -:- Fri, Apr 06, 2001 at 07:21:30 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Babs -:- Yes, your dogs are divine, but... -:- Fri, Apr 06, 2001 at 17:09:10 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Mercedes -:- Breathing while walking -:- Fri, Apr 06, 2001 at 14:42:23 (GMT)

TD -:- This issue of Maharaji being a really 'busy man' -:- Fri, Apr 06, 2001 at 04:04:20 (GMT)
__ TD -:- Actually I should correct the bit I said.... -:- Fri, Apr 06, 2001 at 04:30:11 (GMT)
__ __ Robert Setton -:- Yes, busy as any I'd say -:- Sat, Apr 07, 2001 at 17:24:21 (GMT)
__ __ __ Jim -:- Naive or stupid? Which one is it, Robert? -:- Sat, Apr 07, 2001 at 22:39:40 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Nigel -:- In a nutshell, Jim. -:- Sat, Apr 07, 2001 at 23:12:23 (GMT)


Date: Sat, Apr 07, 2001 at 00:00:51 (GMT)
From: Babs
Email: ralphie@ralphiescafe.com
To: Everyone
Subject: Show and Tell
Message:
I've really enjoyed the recent threads about life after maharajism, in which you guys have shared what you have learned about other forms of meditation, and how you have benefitted from therapy. I think such conversations are appropriate on the Forum because, let's face it, we're all in recovery here.

I'm not interested in dwelling in Victimland, and ultimately I do take responsibility for all the decisions I've made in life. On the other hand, Maharaji did accept my adoration, and my belief in his divinity caused me to make countless decisions that I would never have made otherwise.

I mean, I was an hippie before I was a premie, and it wasn't easy to go to work for Dow Chemical in order to pay off those Millennium debts. You remember Dow, maker of napalm, burner of babies? But I digress... Lots of us did unsavory things because of 'agya.' It was all part of a Divine Plan, right?

I was an artist before I was a premie, too. I studied art, architecture, art history, and photography at Rice, Stanford, Berkeley, and the San Francisco Art Institute. After receiving Knowledge, I vowed not to create art as self-expression any more - too much of an ego trip - but was happy whenever DLM asked me to paste-up publications or put together greeting cards for Maharaji.

After leaving the cult in '79, I stayed stuck in this 'I can do art only if specifically asked to do so' mode. I took the occasional sign-painting job, did calligraphy on wedding invitations, designed posters, chalkboards, that sort of thing. But doing any kind of art work was really traumatic, accompanied by procrastination, all nighters, crying jags, and snapping at the people I love. Yucky stuff. Twenty years of it.

So when my brilliant, gay, Latvian, Buddhist therapist suggested a mandala a day to keep the Seasonal Affectiveness Disorder at bay, I thought he was nuts. Told him art made me crazy. But gave it my best shot, anyway...

I am very, very happy to be able to share the results with you today. Just shows what a person can accomplish if you remember to breathe while you doodle.

Consider it a virtual art opening. Help yourself to the virtual wine and cheese. Click on any of the thumbnails to enlarge.
Enjoy!

Mandalas

With love from Babs

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Tues, Apr 10, 2001 at 20:26:25 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Babs
Subject: Show and Tell
Message:
Really nice Mandelas, Babs. Particularly, the sunflower and spiral shell ones. But they're all nice. Thanks.

As for:

I'm not interested in dwelling in Victimland, and ultimately I do take responsibility for all the decisions I've made in life.

That's fine. Take responsibility, sure. But could you tell me exactly what you think that responsibility was? As i see it, our responsibility was pretty small in the sense that we were set up and fell prey to an elaborately structured, hindu scam. In fact, we WERE victims. Like it or not, that's what happened.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sun, Apr 08, 2001 at 15:41:47 (GMT)
From: Cynthia
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: Babs, Tim G. and Robyn...WOW
Message:
I loved all of your work. I especially love that all of your work is the ''old-fashioned kind,'' that is, using natural media rather than PC generated.

Regarding gardening, I too, love to keep a garden. When I created my first one here in Vermont, I was fortunate to have a small plot, so I made raised beds, fenced it off (only so my cats wouldn't pee in the beds), and it is in a spot high above where two rivers converge. Idyllic, truly. My little peninsula.

I love pulling weeds. I'm a two fisted weed puller, and it gets a lot of angry/negative energy out. I find that when I enter that small plot of land, it's better than any meditation I've ever done. Getting my hands in the soil is the best.

Thanks for your exhibitions!
Love,
Cynthia

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sun, Apr 08, 2001 at 08:21:35 (GMT)
From: AJW
Email: None
To: Babs
Subject: Which one's Nelson?
Message:
Hi Babs,

I like your Mandalas, and they're probably even better in real life than they are on the net (just like eDrek). There are also some interesting links on that site.

Anth wondering where all the Buddhas went.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sat, Apr 07, 2001 at 21:54:05 (GMT)
From: Kelly
Email: None
To: Babs
Subject: Show and Tell
Message:
Babs,
I can hardly believe the parallels. That whole thing about ego and creativity. And guess what I decided to do..Yes...Mandalas.
However, my last ego-less! paintings were of Amaroo. I'll fill you in on all of this at a later date. I'd love to talk, but time is short at the moment.
Yours are beautiful,
another time,
Kelly
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sat, Apr 07, 2001 at 23:13:47 (GMT)
From: Babs
Email: ralphie@ralphiescafe.com
To: Kelly
Subject: I can't wait ...
Message:
to hear the whole story, but I guess I'll have to. Promise me you'll get back to me on this one. The ego/creativity thing seems to have affected a lot of us. Can you post your Amaroo paintings? What about your mandalas? You are such a tease! Wish we could talk in person, but thanks for your feedback. Exes can be such warm, supportive, compassionate people! I am just basking in the attention. Love, Babs
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sun, Apr 08, 2001 at 14:58:20 (GMT)
From: Kelly
Email: None
To: Babs
Subject: I can't wait ...
Message:
Hi Babs,
I have been meaning to get on with the business of learning how to post pictures etc..I know it's not hard, but so far, I haven't even taken photos! It often takes me some time to fulfil promises but I will get around to it...Unfortunately, I destroyed most of the Mandalas in a fit of pique after my recent rending of the veil of delusion.They weren't very good anyway, they were more asymetrical and abstract than yours. One or two survive and I will let you see them. The sad thing is that I decided the only way out of the ego trap was to paint for 'him' hence the mandalas and the Amaroo pics. I'll post them, I promise!
Kelly
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sat, Apr 07, 2001 at 20:28:40 (GMT)
From: such
Email: None
To: Babs
Subject: Thanks! got me in good mood on road to Mandalay(nt
Message:
nt
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sat, Apr 07, 2001 at 23:23:52 (GMT)
From: Babs
Email: ralphie@ralphiescafe.com
To: such
Subject: Give my regards to Mandalay! nt
Message:
Come back soon!
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Mon, Apr 09, 2001 at 01:29:30 (GMT)
From: such
Email: None
To: Babs
Subject: ...remember me to Her old Squire (nt
Message:
nt
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sat, Apr 07, 2001 at 16:06:14 (GMT)
From: Katie H
Email: None
To: Babs
Subject: Babs, thank YOU for the inspiration.
Message:
I was an artist too, and I have real problems doing art unless I have an 'assignment' of some sort (I can't tell you how many pictures I've done of agricultural stuff at work - it's kind of fun, though). I can't do it just for me - it has to have a purpose of some sort. Occassionally I have been able to break out of this, but not very often. I think your therapist had a wonderful idea, and I want to try it too - I like the challenge of creating within a limited context.

Your mandalas are really great - my favorites were Lono, and Sunflower - can see you must be a wonderful representational artist too.

Thanks so much for the inspiration.

Katie H.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sat, Apr 07, 2001 at 16:10:55 (GMT)
From: Katie H.
Email: None
To: babs
Subject: P.S. and I really liked the media, too.
Message:
I use also pen, pencil, water color, etc., too - although I've always been fond of felt-tip markers and now paint pens (which contain opaque paint), because I'm not really a painter. I like to see work using those materials, too - as I said, it's inspiring.

Thanks again.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sat, Apr 07, 2001 at 23:49:09 (GMT)
From: Babs
Email: ralphie@ralphiescafe.com
To: Katie H.
Subject: Show me yours!
Message:
I liked what Tim G - who is really a painter - said about painting. When it's going well, you feel just like a four-year-old playing in the dirt.

I'd love to see your work. Seems like lots of exes are artists. Not surprising, really, that we have a lot of imagination. I mean, we all imagined that Capt. Rawat was the Lord of the Universe, didn't we? Probably comes of growing up on Alice in Wonderland and trying to imagine three impossible things before breakfast every day...

Thanks for attending my 'virtual opening' and for your kind words of encouragement. See you around the Forum.

Love,
Babs

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sat, Apr 07, 2001 at 13:13:03 (GMT)
From: Mike Finch
Email: None
To: Babs
Subject: Mandala Sites
Message:
Hi Babs and others

This link has a good index of Mandala sites on the Web:

http://www.abgoodwin.com/mandala/centerc.shtml

Beware: you will spend hours and hours of clicking if you go there !

-- Mike

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sun, Apr 08, 2001 at 00:05:14 (GMT)
From: Babs
Email: ralphie@ralphiescafe.com
To: Mike Finch
Subject: Mandala Sites
Message:
Dear Mike,

Thanks for the link. I added it to my 'favorites,' and I can tell I'll be hanging out there a lot... if I can tear myself away from the Forum, that is! So many virtual hugs and handshakes here...

Love,
Babs

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sat, Apr 07, 2001 at 09:16:03 (GMT)
From: Tim G
Email: timgitti@indigo.ie
To: Babs
Subject: Show and Tell
Message:
Hi Babs, Thanks for the show...They are lovely especially the flower head ones. I like them when they are less geometrical and more organic...a slight nod to the Art Deco era and also Hundertwasser,
I too was (and am) an Artist. In the premie days I came under a lot of pressure to give it up both internally and externally....it was a mind/ego activity you know. When I had a show with an 8 foot picture of the Natterjack Toad Himself and some mandalas too I think I was forgiven and became a token DLM artist. But I sure know what you are talking about.
Be glad to be an artist and express yourself that way....like everything else it can be an ego trip or a natural activity that you do for the love of it.
AND you are very talented.
Good on your Latvian Therapist!
Thanks for the virtual snack.
Love from your brother of the brush
Tim
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sun, Apr 08, 2001 at 00:45:10 (GMT)
From: Babs
Email: ralphie@ralphiescafe.com
To: Tim G
Subject: Wow. Really BIG Wow.
Message:
I've been checking out your home page and am quite the overwhelmed (as my kids say) by your accomplishments.
In case anybody missed Tim's address, here it is again:

http://www.beara.org/test/

Just mind-numbingly gorgeous stuff.
The Facing Darkness series is as beautiful as any image captured by the Hubble and Fires is the next best thing to standing on the rim of Kilauea Caldera while Madam Pele is putting on one of her shows.

I am humbled, as Ben Stein says, and grateful for your encouragement,
and inspired to keep 'playing in the dirt.'
You play in the dirt like God plays in the dirt.
You can quote me on that.

It is totally unfair that you are so cute. And a musician too.
Dang.

Virtually pranamming in the direction of County Cork,
Babs

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sat, Apr 07, 2001 at 03:29:15 (GMT)
From: Robyn
Email: None
To: Babs
Subject: Show and Tell
Message:
Dear Babs,
Thanks! They are beautiful! Sometime I'll show you my jewlery. :)
I remember looking at my first piece, the first drawing and the finished product and being amazed that it was in me. It seemed so much more intense/powerful then I think of myself but it really helped me to know that the thing that came through was in me, part of me. Good stuff. Thanks again.
Love,
Robyn
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sat, Apr 07, 2001 at 04:59:29 (GMT)
From: Babs
Email: ralphie@ralphiescafe.com
To: Robyn
Subject: Thanks for visiting
Message:
I'd love to see your jewelry, and yes, creating stuff IS very intense and powerful and you learn a lot about yourself while you're doing it and sometimes it's even fun.

Thanks for the feedback. I'm as nervous as if this was a real art opening. I'm just waiting for somebody to ask where to click for the refreshments...

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sat, Apr 07, 2001 at 11:16:49 (GMT)
From: Robyn
Email: None
To: Babs
Subject: to Babs and Salam
Message:
Dear Babs,
Well your 'opening' was a success from what I see. :) If someone wants refreshements tell them to get their bums us and go to their kitchen! :)

Dearest Salam,
Is there anyway you can do what you did with my necklace on AG? First off I never did get it right and you made it oh so nice size wise. :)
Love,
Robyn

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sat, Apr 07, 2001 at 17:32:48 (GMT)
From: Salam
Email: None
To: Robyn
Subject: anything for you me darling
Message:
You are me darling, aren't you?

There ye go

Click to see rAAbyns' pretty neckless

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sat, Apr 07, 2001 at 18:56:26 (GMT)
From: Robyn
Email: None
To: Salam
Subject: here it is Babs, well the post from Salam
Message:
Dear Salam,
You are so sweet. Thanks. Hope you are sleeping now.
Love,
Robyn
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sat, Apr 07, 2001 at 03:07:46 (GMT)
From: Helen
Email: None
To: Babs
Subject: Show and Tell
Message:
Dear Babs
I had tears in my eyes looking at your mandalas and reading your post. Thank you for sharing your positivity here. I go through similar travails with my creative process. Glad you found a way to enjoy art again. They are breathtaking, my daughter was amazed as well and we had to open up each one as we couldn't decide which was our 'favorite.'
Helen
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sat, Apr 07, 2001 at 05:20:15 (GMT)
From: Babs
Email: ralphie@ralphiescafe.com
To: Helen
Subject: Thanks for visiting
Message:
How old is your daughter? (Mine is seventeen.) I'm really glad you both enjoyed the doodles. I am enjoying the process a lot more, now that I've lowered my standards...

I figured there might be a few 'exes' out there who went through a similar, talent-denying, ego-suppressing period and could understand how good it feels to get over it. Thank you for understanding. Really. It means a lot.

Love,
Babs

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Mon, Apr 09, 2001 at 01:33:35 (GMT)
From: Helen
Email: None
To: Babs
Subject: too high standards--a ticket to hell
Message:
I have come to recognize that having impossibly high standards is a sure way to nip the creative urge right in the bud.
And a sure way to NEVER have fun or produce anything. Case in point, I am trying to write a romance novel of all things after years of struggling to write the meaningful, spiritual epic young adult novel of all time. My daughter is 8. Your creative process was very inspirational. Thank you.
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sat, Apr 07, 2001 at 01:39:04 (GMT)
From: Roy
Email: z
To: Babs
Subject: Show and Tell
Message:
Dear Babs, these are very wonderful... thanks (again) for sharing
your talents. If you only do art on request...
I COMMAND YOU TO DO MORE ART!!! (please)
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sat, Apr 07, 2001 at 05:23:36 (GMT)
From: Babs
Email: ralphie@ralphiescafe.com
To: Roy
Subject: Thanks for visiting
Message:
Dear Roy,
Aw, shucks.
Love,Babs
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sat, Apr 07, 2001 at 01:33:10 (GMT)
From: Richard
Email: None
To: Babs
Subject: Show and Tell - wonderful
Message:
A really nice slide show here on a Friday afternoon. Wonderful expressions.

R

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sat, Apr 07, 2001 at 05:46:30 (GMT)
From: Babs
Email: ralphie@ralphiescafe.com
To: Richard
Subject: Thanks for visiting
Message:
Dear Richard,

I guess the link works...
I'm actually blushing from all the wonderful things everybody is saying, but your kind words are especially meaningful because of our shared memories. If I had stopped to consider that you would likely be one of my viewers, I probably wouldn't have had the nerve to post. You'll have to explain to me someday how you managed to retain your creativity in and out of the cult. Quite the feat.

Your admirer,
Babs

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sat, Apr 07, 2001 at 01:26:51 (GMT)
From: Pat Conlon
Email: None
To: Babs
Subject: Babs, the writer and the artist!
Message:
I enjoyed them all but especially the autumn one so I put that as wallpaper on my computer.
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sat, Apr 07, 2001 at 11:20:23 (GMT)
From: Robyn
Email: None
To: Pat Conlon
Subject: Babs, the writer and the artist!
Message:
Dear Pat,
I actually have some of Salam's art work as the wall paper on my PC and have been cycling pics of art work from people I know as my wall paper! :) Apparently we are a talanted lot. :)
I see I am becoming virtually forgien! :) I've noticed words like lot and bum coming out as sounding more natural then anything else. :)
Love,
Robyn
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sat, Apr 07, 2001 at 18:02:33 (GMT)
From: Pat Conlon
Email: None
To: Robyn
Subject: Robyn, was that a piece of your jewelry?
Message:
The necklace that Salam posted a link to?

Very beautiful and delicate.

I wish Salam would post some of his art too.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sun, Apr 08, 2001 at 01:04:24 (GMT)
From: Babs
Email: ralphie@ralphiescafe.co,
To: Robyn
Subject: Not just beautiful and delicate...
Message:
...a very intense and powerful piece! I thought it was a butterfly at first glance, then I saw the face. Bet nobody messes with you when you wear that! Reminded me that the Greeks used the same symbol for 'butterfly' as for 'double-headed axe,' and carved them all over the Labyrinth. Thanks for sharing. More! More! And thanks, Salam, for posting the link.

Love,
Babs

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sun, Apr 08, 2001 at 02:53:43 (GMT)
From: Katie H
Email: None
To: Babs
Subject: The labrys? symbol
Message:
I think the double headed axe is called the labrys? You are correct that it's very powerful - I have two pairs of labrys earrings - one large, and one small, and I DO wear them when I don't want anyone to mess with me. (It's a woman thang...)
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sat, Apr 07, 2001 at 18:58:42 (GMT)
From: Robyn
Email: None
To: Pat Conlon
Subject: Robyn, was that a piece of your jewelry?
Message:
Dear Pat,
Thanks, yes that was the first thing I ever did. I hope to get my own stuff so I can make jewlery at home. I did that in college. It all started out as flat sheets of metal.
Love,
Robyn
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sat, Apr 07, 2001 at 05:55:58 (GMT)
From: Babs
Email: ralphie@ralphiescafe.com
To: Pat Conlon
Subject: Thanks for visiting
Message:
The original of the autumn mandala is framed and hanging on the wall in the guest room. Your room, if you're ever in town.

BTW, aren't you overdue for a vacation? I mean, you work fourteen hours a day, you're always on this Forum, when do you sleep? I'm worried about you.

Love,
Babs

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sat, Apr 07, 2001 at 07:46:49 (GMT)
From: Pat Conlon
Email: None
To: Babs
Subject: I cheat, Babs
Message:
I've got a computer at home and one at work. Whenever I have a tea break I sit down and the first thing I do after looking at email is look here. Sometimes FV is as comfortable as my kitchen - not always. But it was tonight.

I bet you've got a lovely cozy nest which would make Ferdinand the Bull purr. Remember him? My house is more like a ''bunk-house'' with 3 adult male slobs and five dogs and a beach full of sand almost in the back yard.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sat, Apr 07, 2001 at 04:47:57 (GMT)
From: Joy
Email: None
To: Pat Conlon
Subject: How Do You Do That, Patrick?
Message:
I'd like the darkblue one as a background on my computer. How do you get it as background wallpaper? I have a slightly older Mac, so it may not work.

They're seriously beautiful, Babs. If you haven't already met him, Tim Goulding, who posts here as Tim G., is a very accomplished professional artist who lives in Ireland, his paintings are gorgeous, you might want to chat with him a bit about art.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sat, Apr 07, 2001 at 06:09:59 (GMT)
From: Babs
Email: ralphie@ralphiescafe.com
To: Joy
Subject: Thanks for visiting
Message:
...and thanks for the tip. I hope Tim G posts again soon. (Are you out there somewhere, Tim?)

If you have trouble with the wallpaper, maybe Ralphie can help you. He has virtual wallpapering experience. Glad you liked one enough to want to use it!

Love,
Babs

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sat, Apr 07, 2001 at 13:38:32 (GMT)
From: Tim G
Email: timgitti@indigo.ie
To: Babs
Subject: Congrats Babs
Message:
Hi Babs
Congratulations on your virtual show...it seems to have elevated us all today.
Next week I have a film crew coming in connection with a four part documentary on 'Spirituality and the Arts'. Hum Hum. I'm fairly allergic to the term Spirituality but I suppose I can't deny it's use.
Gardening is a wonderful artform and a great simple way of being in the moment and free of brother Ego, the old rascal.
When all is going well in painting it's more like being 4 years old again and playing in the dirt.
If you'd like to see what I'm up to try looking at; beara.org/test soon to be timgoulding.com
love from Tim
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sat, Apr 07, 2001 at 23:01:01 (GMT)
From: Babs
Email: ralphie@ralphiescafe.com
To: Tim G
Subject: Thanx Tim
Message:
I just added your homepage to my favorites. See ya around!
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sat, Apr 07, 2001 at 05:05:25 (GMT)
From: Pat Conlon
Email: None
To: Joy
Subject: Joy, with Windows you right click but Mac not sure
Message:
Right click on pic brings up menu. One item on menu is SET AS WALLPAPER.
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sat, Apr 07, 2001 at 00:30:09 (GMT)
From: Selene
Email: None
To: Babs
Subject: thanks Babs nice work I hoped it helped! nt
Message:
nt
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sat, Apr 07, 2001 at 06:25:01 (GMT)
From: Babs
Email: ralphie@ralphiescafe.com
To: Selene
Subject: Thanks for visiting
Message:
...and thanks for your good wishes. The mandalas did help me get through a tough winter, but now that spring is here, I'd rather be outside playing in the dirt. Doodling and weed-pulling are just about the only two activities that are simple enough for me to perform and maintain some kind of breath-awareness at the same time. Weed-pulling is better for getting rid of anger, though.

Have a wonderful spring!
Love,
Babs

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sat, Apr 07, 2001 at 22:32:24 (GMT)
From: Selene
Email: None
To: Babs
Subject: I will - lots of weeds to pull
Message:
I didn't plant early enuf for a garden though, too late it will be 100 degrees soon. But I have some flowers and a few things that came back from last year's garden. Outside gardening is great for anger and also just for the blahs.
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sat, Apr 07, 2001 at 03:48:27 (GMT)
From: Zelda
Email: None
To: Babs
Subject: Wow-whats the medium?? NT
Message:
nt
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sat, Apr 07, 2001 at 04:48:59 (GMT)
From: Babs
Email: ralphie@ralphiescafe.com
To: Zelda
Subject: Not exactly computer-generated, huh?
Message:
I use old-fashioned stuff. Brushes and pens,watercolors and inks, colored pencils. The Luma watercolors that come in little glass bottles with eyedroppers.

(I don't know if you can still buy Luma watercolors, actually. I bought 'em back in the 70's to do those greeting cards for you-know-who and finally used 'em up on the mandalas.)

Thanks for the 'Wow.'
Are you named after the Nintendo Game?

Love, Babs

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sat, Apr 07, 2001 at 05:56:38 (GMT)
From: Zelda
Email: None
To: Babs
Subject: Not exactly computer-generated, huh?
Message:
what magnifican geometry. Do you dry the water colors between layers-- or is it all done at once?

I heard recently that there is an american indian thing where one works hard on a mandala then puts it in a fire to burn it. something about the reallizations incorporated in the mandala joins the great spirit or something like thaat

surely not this kind though

I used to have a mad crush on Dobie Gillis then Maynard broke my heart--- it s a long story......

... never heard of the game

your work inspired me to find my box of paints and see if I can get the lids off......

:)
Z

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sat, Apr 07, 2001 at 06:49:38 (GMT)
From: Babs
Email: ralphie@ralphiescafe.com
To: Zelda
Subject: Further reading
Message:
Dear Zelda,

I have seen beautiful, colored-sand mandalas created by Native Americans, and equally beautiful Tibetan sand mandalas, much more intricate and labor-intensive than mine. Their impermanence somehow makes them even more beautiful.

You might enjoy a book called Navajo & Tibetan Sacred Wisdom: The Circle of the Spirit by Peter Gold.

Hope you can get the lids off.

Love,
Babs

P.S. Maynard???????

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sun, Apr 08, 2001 at 06:49:13 (GMT)
From: Zelda
Email: None
To: Babs
Subject: Further reading
Message:
many thanks for that reference

Maynard as in G Crebs-- old tv program-

the lids came off an I am 'doing palm sunday ' in water color washes-
legend has it that each day of this week a planet reveals the shadow side- so to speak.

so today is super dark indigo on the bottom of the page and light magenta at the very top- and that full moon glow in the middle..

the magenta works down and the indigo lightens up - progressively through the week . Indigo ends towards spring green and the magenta area is yellow gold

.. or something like that. Its a type of soul therapy.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sat, Apr 07, 2001 at 00:26:57 (GMT)
From: Mercedes
Email: None
To: Babs
Subject: They are beautiful - nt-
Message:
beautiful
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sat, Apr 07, 2001 at 06:28:51 (GMT)
From: Babs
Email: ralphie@ralphiescafe.com
To: Mercedes
Subject: Thank you, Mercedes - nt
Message:
thanks a lot!
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sat, Apr 07, 2001 at 17:03:19 (GMT)
From: Disculta Darling
Email: None
To: Babs
Subject: Wow Babs
Message:
These just made my morning after a sweaty, hot flashy night!

I just got the yantram program for generating computer mandalas, which I have been having fun with, but these are natch! Analog rocks! Totally rad, Babs babe!

love Katie Darling

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sat, Apr 07, 2001 at 22:53:59 (GMT)
From: Babs
Email: ralphie@ralphiescafe.com
To: Disculta Darling
Subject: Good morning! Glad you could make it!
Message:
Dear Katie Darling,

I didn't know that you were Disculta! I'm going to go back and read the archives now...

Glad you liked the Luddite Mandalas. You're a therapist, aren't you? Can you believe that my therapist is actually Latvian? Isn't that a hoot?

So sorry to hear about your hot flashes and night sweats. I went through those about six months ago, but I didn't want to do hormones, so I asked my acupuncturist about it and he prescribed these little round black Chinese pills that look just like papaya seeds. They are cheap and effective. One of them is called 'Plum Flower Brand Eight Flavor Rehmannia Teapills.' The Chinese name is 'Zhi Bai Di Huang Wan.' The other label is all in Chinese characters, unfortunately, but unless you live in a very small town in the very deep South, you can probably get free advice from the counterperson in your local herbal remedy store.
I strongly encourage you not to suffer needlessly. I was waking up every two hours, every night; and I'm sure you know how lack of deep sleep affects your mood... With medication, just like therapy and spiritual practices, there are many alternatives out there. What works for me may not work for you, but all I can tell you is what works for me. I hope you do whatever you need to do to get some rest. All my love and total understanding -

Babs

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sun, Apr 08, 2001 at 03:31:05 (GMT)
From: Katie Darling
Email: None
To: Babs
Subject: Good morning! Glad you could make it!
Message:
Thanks, I took down the name. My acupuncturist said to get on estrogen right away (natural kinds).

I appreciate the love and support very much. I still want to know if you're that red-headed Babs from IHQ. I asked ages ago, but then the thread went inactive and I never checked.

So are you?

love Katie Darling

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Mon, Apr 09, 2001 at 12:59:11 (GMT)
From: bill--Great Art!
Email: None
To: Katie Darling
Subject: Hi Babs, Thanks for the link and the thread.nt
Message:
sdfyga
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Fri, Apr 06, 2001 at 23:54:35 (GMT)
From: Nigel
Email: nigel@redcrow.demon.co.uk
To: Everyone
Subject: Arrested development (but released on bail)
Message:
I don’t know whether anyone else can relate to this, but one of the more subtle effects of involvement with this mindwarp known as Knowledge was for me the retarded development of what you might call a ‘worldview’. Most people by the age of twenty-five or thirty tend to know where they stand on most things and could sum up their ‘outlook on life’; this needn’t be anything profound or well-worked-out, but more a case of knowing your own mind or (if you prefer) feelings about things.

Instead, Margie insisted I reject and fear the mental effluent my brainwaves, so there was not much chance of said self-knowledge happening whilst under the influence of his simplistic ‘mind-vs- maharaji’ model of the universe. Paradoxical, really, since Knowledge is supposed to be about knowledge of the ‘self’. Bollocks. It is about ignorance and denial of the self.

Most people hope for a practical, cohesive bedrock belief or philosophy they can refer to and apply to new situations. We might be programmed that way. Something that will hold true across all spheres of activity including the political, the moral, the spiritual, the personal, the scientific etc., including the day-to-day nitty-gritties such as health, drugs, diet and childcare. Prem Rawat is an authority on absolutes (to the extent that he has always been certain about his absolute authority…) So we listened to him. It was this need for certainty (mine, and no doubt, his, too) which brought me into the Knowledge trip but which the cult spectacularly failed to deliver. The worst thing being it took me ten years to realise it. Maharaji’s basic message – implicit or explicit – is once you have Knowledge, the other stuff doesn’t matter. Beautifully simple; simplistically ugly.

The premie solution is to listen first to Maharaji or at least other premies to see whether the Only One has pronounced on the matter in hand. Unfortunately, on many subjects (eg. morality) he said nothing beyond ‘the only sin is to know the truth and then go away from it’, or ‘what good are your principles if you’re going to die anyway?’ He certainly never mentioned the right thing to do after running over and killing a cyclist, for instance...

And when he HAS spoken out on other issues it was the most unadulterated bullshit (check out the ‘dead seeds’ argument for vegetarianism). More unfortunately still, he changed his mind on so many things over the years (astrology, karma, reincarnation, I am Superior Power in Flab but I never wanted to be a leader…) that anyone trying to take the guy seriously ends up dazed and confused - which, come to think of it, are the perfect attributes for the compliant signer of bank drafts, still seeking a place beyond that confusion.

Get your concepts blown on a regular basis and be shown, yet again, what an insignificant worm you are for wanting things to believe in in the first place...

As for the rest, well, forget the political. Crazy politicians are – like the rest of us – in their heads, looking after their careers, full of desires and ambitions, and political solutions won’t bring answers to any of the suffering in the world, will they? (nb: Some truth there, but politicians are not the same thing as a need for political action.)

No, ‘happiness is the practical solution. Everyone gets happy. That’s it… tee-hee-hee…’ was Prem’s giggling prescription for peace on earth - gleefully mistaking outcome for method, perhaps due to a surfeit of ice-cream and TV horror movies - alongside: ‘Peace isn’t the absence of war…’ [er, actually, Prem, that’s exactly what it is!]. And let’s not forget he actually promised to deliver peace within his lifetime. A yearor so back I was thinking of sending a few propagation pamphlets to the Kosovan refugees to let them know the good news about what’s surely gonna happen in what’s left of Prem’s giggling-with-happiness lifetime but, on balance, demurred… (The kids who watched their folks being murdered might not be ready)

And yes, I too want things to believe in. Why not? But I will choose, and have chosen what to believe in. Or maybe I have no choice, since I cannot believe in the unbelievable. When it comes down to it, that part of me that was being permanently suppressed and smothered while I was trying to live ‘in that place’ twenty-nine hours a day, is actually the only part of me I even care about – and which those few special people who care about me care about also…

The part of me that even thinks for itself, makes uncoerced choices, and can interact meaningfully with other people -– and I mean all other people, and not just other cult members. (And you only have to read the contributions of our premie guests on this forum to see the severe shortfall in basic social skills and critical thinking that will accrue from too long spent under a blanket or watching videos…)

Or the part of me that is as much a physical being as anything else. Do you remember that premie song that started: ‘You are not your body. You are not your mind…’?

Sorry, but mind and body - are exactly what you are. Hallelujah! Enjoy them – they are among the most wonderful things that evolved on this planet - alongside yeast, hops and the grape, of course.

So I have fudged together a new worldview in a freelance fusion of Darwinism, atheism, humanism, art and lit (remember when M banned books from ashrams?), Amnesty Internationalism, left-of-centre politics with a spoonful of non-mystical environmentalism thrown in… Shostokovich, Miles Davis, Van Morrison... [list of other musical favourites removed by forum good taste editor]... substitute your own.

No serious drugs except half a gallon of real ale or a nice bottle of red wine, and – of course – a sense of wonder, too much coffee and black sense of humour. But you don’t need to agree with or embrace any of that to reject the teachings of the guru. Find whatever suits you best, I say after first applying some honest, critical scrutiny. You’ll never regret it.

Sometimes I envy those exes with a strong new-age tendency, who carry on meditating without the guru and read their experience is some kind of spiritual merging with the universal juice – no particular worldview except rivers flowing back to ocean of infinity - that Margie was a signpost on the rocky road to... Hell, sometimes I envy CD, for his unshakeable belief in the benevolent playfulness of fookin infinity and the sheer mellow purpose and rightness of everything that is, was, and ever more shall be - oh… But then, again, I wouldn’t want to tell the folks in Kosovo that just at the moment. There’s too much pain in the world for such glibness.

Find something that will apply as much to others as to yourself, I reckon, and if you don’t feel embarrassed telling them about it, then it might be something worth telling them about.

Find something - better still, choose a few things to believe in before they choose you. The chances are, if you are an ex, that you came to Margie because you cared about things like the truth, the whole truth and nothing but… or else because you wanted to know love. Both are out there, in my experience - no guru or devotional commitment necessary. Go get ‘em…or at least enjoy the experience of being your own authority on what is best for you.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Tues, Apr 10, 2001 at 12:02:33 (GMT)
From: Katie H
Email: None
To: Nigel
Subject: Another ***BEST OF FORUM*** to Nigel
Message:
Thanks - really great post. Marking it for J-M to collect.
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Tues, Apr 10, 2001 at 16:58:21 (GMT)
From: Nigel
Email: None
To: Katie H
Subject: Ta, Katie, and others below.Good to let off steam!
Message:
nt
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Mon, Apr 09, 2001 at 17:40:46 (GMT)
From: Gail
Email: None
To: Nigel
Subject: Thanks for blowing my socks off, Nigel. (nt)
Message:
nt
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Tues, Apr 10, 2001 at 00:23:39 (GMT)
From: Nige
Email: nigel@redcrow.demon.co.uk
To: Gail
Subject: Hosiery removal all part of service ma'am nt;)
Message:
nt
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sun, Apr 08, 2001 at 18:55:31 (GMT)
From: Joe
Email: None
To: Nigel
Subject: You're a very good man, Nigel
Message:
Despite Maharaji, it seems to me like you have done pretty well, from what I can see, in developing an excellent and coherent basis of values and a sense of justice for yourself. And that post was just another example. It would be a great loss to all of us if those qualities of yours, as well as your sharp and humanistic intellect, were still glued shut in Maharaji's truncated philosophy. Thanks for being here, Nigel.
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Mon, Apr 09, 2001 at 12:50:38 (GMT)
From: bill
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: That could be said about you too Joe...nt
Message:
dsfhfsa
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sun, Apr 08, 2001 at 04:39:11 (GMT)
From: bill
Email: None
To: Nigel
Subject: Arrested development (but released on bail)
Message:
Hi Nigel,
Maybe keep this post handy and repost it when the newbies arrive off the magazine article.
As Jim would say, its a keeper.
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sat, Apr 07, 2001 at 03:45:00 (GMT)
From: Helen
Email: None
To: Nigel
Subject: Arrested development (but released on bail)
Message:
So true. M is such a lightweight himself. Can you imagine him weighing in on the issue between the U.S. and China?
How naive were we to think that everything had a simple solution-stick your thumbs in your ears and so-hung it all away!
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sat, Apr 07, 2001 at 02:23:11 (GMT)
From: moldy warp
Email: None
To: Nigel
Subject: nige - OT
Message:
did you get my Email re swimming and walking - somuts up with post - got message it was not sent so I've sent it again x
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sat, Apr 07, 2001 at 08:21:07 (GMT)
From: Nigel
Email: None
To: moldy warp
Subject: mold - OT
Message:
No, not yet. Something strange going on with my mailbox...
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sat, Apr 07, 2001 at 11:43:39 (GMT)
From: moldy warp
Email: None
To: Nigel
Subject: Nige OT
Message:
Youve definitely got an imp in yer mail box. Had 2 returned so I'll try again today
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sat, Apr 07, 2001 at 01:14:02 (GMT)
From: Pat Conlon
Email: None
To: Nigel
Subject: Now, Nige, you know you don't envy New Age
Message:
dreamers and mystics. I loved your post. Everyday since cutting my umbilical cord to the urug I feel my intellect coming more alive.

How the fuck did I survive for 28 years being an intellectual cripple? All of a sudden it is no longer an effort to think straight. I never gave up on my intellect but there was a dissonance with what I had to stomach form the urug.

Of course, since finding out that not only did he fill our heads with nonsensical concepts but that he also deliberately teaches a perverted form of meditation, I have realized exactly what was wrong with me. He mind-fucked me.

Mostly it's nice to sink back into my true nature which is like a comfortable chair. No mental conflicts. No having to try to understand weird concepts or believe in anything. Not having to compare everything with the ''ultimate truth.''

I'm quite happy being an agnostic ignoramus who thinks life is fine without having to try to squeeze some spiritual claptrap into my protesting brain. I'd rather study botany or history.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sat, Apr 07, 2001 at 01:23:50 (GMT)
From: moldy warp
Email: None
To: Pat Conlon
Subject: Pat you agnostic ignoramous
Message:
You have more wisdom in your little toe than mind-fucker has in his entire (and it is pretty entire) body.
God- I love this forum!
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sat, Apr 07, 2001 at 01:33:08 (GMT)
From: Pat Conlon
Email: None
To: moldy warp
Subject: Moldy, you shameless flatterer
Message:
How many exes have you fallen in love with just through their words here? Sometimes I start feeling like I'm in the same room with them. Their ''realness'' just is almost palpable.
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sat, Apr 07, 2001 at 01:45:12 (GMT)
From: moldy warp
Email: None
To: Pat Conlon
Subject: Moldy, you shameless flatterer
Message:
Oh -you've got my number! Pat - you romantic poet you!
Beats trying to fall in love with Lard hands down!
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sat, Apr 07, 2001 at 00:20:45 (GMT)
From: moldy warp
Email: None
To: Nigel
Subject: Nige - Chop that wood, carry water...
Message:
What's the sound of one hand clappin'- Enlightenment - don't know what it is.
Very special post...just taking it in x
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sat, Apr 07, 2001 at 00:47:17 (GMT)
From: Nigel
Email: None
To: moldy warp
Subject: Nige - Chop that wood, carry water...
Message:
You are much skilled in the arts of crypticism, moldio - but it sounded cool;)
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sat, Apr 07, 2001 at 01:19:39 (GMT)
From: moldy warp
Email: None
To: Nigel
Subject: Nige - Chop that wood, carry water...
Message:
You know - Van the Man - Enlightenment - was having a philosophical moment courteousy of other bottle of Chilean red - oops - supposed to be saving that wasn't I? will go to chez tescos and get more supplies. BTW - your post - mental effluent bit - very very funny.
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sat, Apr 07, 2001 at 00:06:04 (GMT)
From: Selene
Email: None
To: Nigel
Subject: Arrested development (but released on bail)
Message:
Of course I can relate. I said as much to Pete below and have said so often. Put a serious trauma/traumas from childhood that you don't deal with into the mix and out comes a mess after the bandaid of googooism goes away.

I cannot believe what spilled out since the lid blew off the pressure cooker 3 years ago, and also on a positive note the healing that has taken place once I stopped using M's platitudes as a balm.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Fri, Apr 06, 2001 at 22:49:54 (GMT)
From: Peter
Email: Peter.Barrett6@btinternet.com
To: Everyone
Subject: Child Abuse.
Message:
Last night at a dinner party a guest who happened to be a psychologist was interested that I had once been a member of Divine Light during the early 70's and that I had lived for a time in the ashram at Spencer Place, Leeds. However, I was quite unprepared for his reason of interest nor the story he was about to tell me.
It seems he had recently been working with a man who as a child lived in the house next door to the ashram in Leeds. At the time the boy had been what you might describe as 'a bit simple' and had suffered psychologically for many years after a particular incident. Years later he was eventually able to disclose to the psychologist how he had been repeatedly raped by two ashram members on occaision in a van (actually the boy described it as an old ambulance) and even on occaision in the ashram itself.
The boy has provided a name (but which I choose not to disclose at the moment), a description of the room inside the ashram, and in fact I recall the old ambulance myself. I was obviously shocked, but the story contained too many elements for me to deny that the account could've been true.
I am therefore posting this message for anyone who might have been connected to the Leeds ashram/premie community and who might harbour knowledge or fears that such incidents might have happened there. Or that there might people who know of other incidents elsewhere. Please get in touch, since in light of the Jagdeo incident, how many others have had their lives ruined by such callous behaviour? If I can get enough collaboration I am quite prepared to post other details I am hold regarding this alledged disturbing and evil episode at Leeds.

Peter Barrett.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sat, Apr 07, 2001 at 08:23:58 (GMT)
From: Sir Dave
Email: None
To: Peter
Subject: Child Abuse.
Message:
I hope that this man can help the police bring his former torturers to book. That's a very serious criminal offence that has been committed.
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Fri, Apr 06, 2001 at 23:51:07 (GMT)
From: Cynthia
Email: sylviecyn@yahoo.com
To: Peter
Subject: Child Abuse.
Message:
Dear Peter,

I'm not surprised, but I am surprised. What I am trying to say is that child sexual abuse is so pervasive in our society that it is very likely more people will be coming forward. I've been waiting to hear from a male survivor of such abuse...I knew it was a matter of time.

I am a survivor of child abuse, but within my family of origin. However, I have been through extensive therapy, and have very close contacts with professionals (not just therapists) but many nationally known professional who work in the field of child abuse prevention in the U.S.

I want to thank you for your post. The only way to rid our society (even the society within a cult) of this insidious behavior against children is to speak out about it.

However, as the FA stated below. Please be very cautious about revealing any details, identities and circumstances. Not only is EV reading, but also premies who may be the perpetrators (or know of the perpetrators) in this case.

I know a lot about this issue, i.e., child sexual abuse. I cannot emphasize enough that the individual (both victim and perp) must not be named here. At least not now.

If you would like to email me, my address is above. I won't be able to answer tonight, as I must go off-line soon, but please feel free to write. All exchanges will be kept strictly confidential. That I can promise.

Isn't it sad, how many children are made to suffer? This is just unacceptable.

Thank you, Peter, for posting this. I'm sure you'll get many more responses.

Best,
Cynthia

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sat, Apr 07, 2001 at 00:02:24 (GMT)
From: Selene
Email: None
To: Cynthia
Subject: yet another idea to get rid of, for me
Message:
I've still had this lingering thought that back then all premies were idealistic and caring and blah blah....
Just shows me how long it really does take to get it all out of one's system. I mean people are people and being a 70s premie didn't guarantee anything. duh!
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Fri, Apr 06, 2001 at 23:09:40 (GMT)
From: Forum Administrator
Email: None
To: Peter
Subject: Child Abuse.
Message:
Peter

Thank you for posting this very disturbing information.

I would ask that you do not post the victim's name without his express permission, and if he does give it, I would feel more comfortable if he either posted himself or at least emailed me at forumfour@hotmail.com to verify he agrees to his name being published in connection with these incidents.

I would also caution you that revealing the alleged perpetrators' names here would almost certainly prejudice any possible criminal and/or civil action the victim may be considering, and also may expose you to possible libel action if you cannot substantiate the claims. I would have no choice but to edit out names and other identifying details as soon as I saw them.

I'm sure you have thought all this through already, but I hope you will understand I have say this.

Thank you.

FA

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Fri, Apr 06, 2001 at 23:08:50 (GMT)
From: moldy warp
Email: None
To: Peter/Everyone
Subject: EVERYONE READ PETER'S POST!
Message:
Dear Peter, I didn't have anything to do with Leeds ashram ,so I can't be of any help myself. But, as I was up and about on the forum as your post arrived -just wanted to say thank you for posting this.
Love Moldy
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sun, Apr 08, 2001 at 04:41:48 (GMT)
From: bill
Email: None
To: moldy warp
Subject: Agreed...Calling her majesty's subjects...nt
Message:
asdfa
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Fri, Apr 06, 2001 at 10:03:27 (GMT)
From: Archie McDonald
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: For Chistsake somebody grab the Cognac
Message:
The Lord of the Universe has manifested with more powers than ever before and is now ratassed pissed after hogging all the cognac. This may have led to adverse affects such as possible Global Warming, El Nino, Earthquakes and Volcanic eruptions in various parts of the Globe not to mention unknown upheavals in various parts of the Universe.

For Chritsake somebody grab the Cognac.

Regards

Archie (having a temporary pureile moment)

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Fri, Apr 06, 2001 at 12:05:58 (GMT)
From: janet
Email: None
To: Archie McDonald
Subject: For Chistsake somebody grab the Cognac
Message:
when he farts, are those sunspots? solar flares?
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Fri, Apr 06, 2001 at 10:26:27 (GMT)
From: AJW
Email: None
To: Archie McDonald
Subject: Now here's a plan.
Message:
Hmmmn,

Now you've got me thinking Archie.

Maybe we could break into his house, steal all his Peter Frampton LPs, call him up and say, 'If you don't endow us with magical yogic powers immediately, we'll scratch, 'Frampton Comes Alive,' on both sides.

Anth, yougorralarfinnit?

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Fri, Apr 06, 2001 at 12:10:48 (GMT)
From: janet
Email: None
To: AJW
Subject: Now here's a plan.
Message:
here's a supreme political statement: hurl molotov cocktails at the mailbu house, made with his cognac brand and his best handkerchiefs.
imagine the conflagration if the next malibu fire reached his winecellar?
better yet--two birds with one stone: sabotage his gulfstream V by pouring all his cognac into the jet fuel tanks.
ever seen a grown man cry?
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Fri, Apr 06, 2001 at 14:57:01 (GMT)
From: Way
Email: None
To: Prem Pal Rawat
Subject: Maharaji, if you are reading here today...
Message:
Dear Lord of the Universe,

It may have come to your attention that a small minority of your devotees have lost their way and are attempting to crucify you, figuratively speaking, on the Internet. I am sure that your turn as Jesus Christ left you with little taste for such messy situations.

You may also have noticed that planet Earth is presently experiencing a great deal of trials and tribulations of every conceivable sort.

It has recently been respectfully suggested that there might be a connection between these sad circumstances and your over-consumption of alcohol.

Is there perhaps some place in the Universe where the Lord can go for a little intervention and counseling? If not, please create such a place, and go there before it is too late.

signed,

Way, your erstwhile devotee

p.s. I tried your Knowledge for a couple decades, but I never got any deeper than a pimple. Sorry bout that.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Fri, Apr 06, 2001 at 04:58:18 (GMT)
From: Pat Conlon
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: Rev Rawat's ''Knowledge'' is a perversion
Message:
These are some notes for an article that I am writing (not for FV.) I thought I would post these here for those of you are interested in meditation. I have decided not to talk about that subject here unless it relates directly to the main agenda which is to bring Rev Rawat to account. Part of this article does touch on that.

Last year Chuck began to research the Radhasoami stuff and I began to look into the yoga aspects because I know what a few of the Hindi words mean and because I studied it before meeting Rawat. This article is the result of that research. These are, as I said, only my preliminary notes and, if you are seriously interested, I would suggest that you do your own research. There are many resources on the net as well as your local library. I will not publish the completed article here.

Meditation is variously called dhyana, jnana, kriya, raja yoga. Each school of yoga mixes and matches techniques and other teachings according to whatever tradition they are descended from but there is plenty of overlap and they are all basically the same.

The word ''yoga'' means yoke, bind, tie, unite. The word religion (from the Latin to tie back into) has similar connotations. Yoga or religion simply means practicing being whole, complete. Pure religion without theology is simply a way to be healthy and sane. A healthy mind in a healthy body.

Patanjali, who first wrote about yoga extensively, meant it to be a holistic way to be healthy. His writings are ancient and mixed up with the cosmology of his day but it is possible to see the essence of what he was saying. Hatha yoga was the way to maintain a healthy body. Dhyana yoga was the set of exercises to maintain a healthy mind. (Dhyana means not only meditation but also mind.)

There are similar exercises in the west for maintaining a healthy mind and conscience. These also arose from theological roots and were based on solitary prayer and contemplation to purify what the primitives called the ''soul.'' This has evolved over the years into the modern movement known as ''Science of Mind'' which is a combination of christian ethical humanism and the discipline known familiarly as ''the power of positive thinking.'' Current practitioners of Science of Mind also often do breathing meditation for relaxation.

Dhyana yoga is not the only way to attain peace of mind and probably for many people formal meditation is not even necessary. Meditation techniques are for those people who require ''training wheels'' to attain peace of mind and mental health.

Yoga is surrounded with Hindu mystique and seems so strange and wonderful but the fact is that it is really not much different from sitting quietly and being calm - what the Quakers call ''Silent Prayer.'' The theological and mystical aspects of it are completely a product of the age in which it was first codified. Primitive people thought in terms of invisible forces and other superstitions including calling consciousness ''god.''

I won't go there as my approach to meditation is simply that it is a tool for maintaining mental health. What people want to call peace of mind is up to them. I prefer not to attach theological labels to it.

When you start to study other yoga teachers you begin to see that many of the more modest and ethical teachers actually caution against teaching dhyana yoga to people with strong theological concepts. Some will not teach the techniques to anyone who still believes in any sort of god.

The tradition from which Maharajism sprang was not altogether evil or even overly primitive. It sought to make yoga accessible to the masses. It blended theology (Sikhism or Krishnaism) with yoga teachings in deference to the god-believing householders it was aimed at. Pranayama (breath meditation) became the Holy Name of God. Shabd (the inner sound) became Divine Music. Talabya became Nectar.

I don't know if Rawat Senior started the eyeball-squeezing routine but that was definitely a corruption of that technique. Squeezing the eyeballs produces phonemes which uneducated peasants (and tripped out acid-heads) could believe to be the Divine Light of God.

Rawat Junior has modified this technique from squeezing to light pressure which does not produce phonemes. He has also rid his socalled ''Knowledge'' of much of the Hindu theology but, when he introduced it to the west 30 years ago, he relied heavily on the theological mumbo-jumbo to induce the mass-hypnosis and auto-suggestion that produced our experiences of bliss. His current remaining western premies all still harbor theological concepts if you dig deep enough below the revisionism. AND he still refers to it as GOD within.

Bhakti yoga is designed to ''open the hearts'' of the believers in feelings of faith, love and hope. The darshan contact high is directly related to what we in the west have known as romantic love. When two people ''fall in love'' it means that they lower all psychological barriers and become completely trusting, vulnerable and open to each other. This produces the feelings of oneness and devotion that result in love songs, babies and much western art.

The only tradition of romantic love in India is tantric yoga (yab-yum, Shiva-Shakti, Krishna-Radha) and it is regarded as a religious experience. This is not surprising in a culture that still regards marriage as a business contract forged through arranged marriage. Bhakti yoga, or guru-worship, is completely out of place in the west and as we have seen always produces dysfunctional cults.

In India gurus are accorded similar spiritual status as revivalist christians regard their preachers. There are as many gurus in India as there are preachers in the west. Rawat Senior was the first to pervert this tradition into messianism and as Sitaram points out was practically a christian in this regard. It was no accident that he sent rawat Junior to a catholic school.

The other thing that you will notice as you study yoga is that Rawat Senior and Junior have deliberately taught the techniques incorrectly. They may not have been the first to do so. It could have arisen through ignorance on the part of the Radhasoami gurus or it could have been a calculated move designed to keep people trapped and dependent on the Rawat guru business.

I will not go into detail about the traditional way of using the techniques because FV is not a meditation school. Suffice it to say that, when I made my break with the urug 3 months ago, I decided to go back to doing the techniques the way I did them for two years before I met Rawat. This is the tried, trusted and traditional way.

I did this mostly as a way to free my practice from any connection to Maharajism but I soon discovered that the way that Rawat teaches yoga actually sets up a conflict with the mind. Ethical yoga teachers actually warn against practicing them the way that he teaches them and caution that it can lead to madness and confusion.

This could be happening because Rawat is ignorant and does not meditate or it could be part of the calculated and manipulative Rawat family messiah business. By teaching the yoga incorrectly their students will never graduate but always be dependent on the guru for guidance at best and at worst will be driven insane.

However the biggest lie of all is surrounding it with mystical mumbo-jumbo and giving it the arcane name ''Knowledge'' and setting the mind up as the enemy within. Yoga shows you that the mind is what you are and teaches you self-control and serenity. It is no accident that the word dhyana means both mind and meditation.

It is also no accident that the related Hindi word ''gyana'' means both conscience and consciousness. True yoga and true religion are simply means of attaining mental health, a clear consciousness and a clean conscience, to be at peace with oneself, to be whole, healthy and at ease not ''dis-eased.'' And morality and ethics are all part of it. Honesty and respect of neighbor is essential to peace of mind.

Maharajism is an evil perversion of a simple mental health regimen designed to instill dependence on the guru and keep him in business. If Rawat taught true yoga he would put himself out of business. The techniques are freely available and the means of using those techniques efficiently are best taught by one friend to another as is still the custom among guruless saddhus in India. Guruism is hucksterism pure and simple. And messianic guruism is the greatest evil of all.

I don't believe in theology but, if christians want to know who is the anti-Christ, they would be advised to look at Rev Rawat.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sat, Apr 07, 2001 at 19:43:24 (GMT)
From: Cynthia
Email: None
To: Pat Conlon
Subject: Pat, thanks for your post...
Message:
Hi Pat,

This is very interesting, though I am one of the folks here who stays away from meditation. (I have to tell you that I first wrote 'mediation,' I realized the typo and corrected it, but it's a funny slip, don't you think?) I digress. I learned a lot from your post, Pat.

In particular, I liked this:

''.....The darshan contact high is directly related to what we in the west have known as romantic love. When two people ''fall in love'' it means that they lower all psychological barriers and become completely trusting, vulnerable and open to each other. This produces the feelings of oneness and devotion that result in love songs, babies and much western art.''

I've never been able to put it into words, that darshan thing, and you explained it well. It's clear that the biggest, and most successful aspect of keeping people trapped, as m does, is through his efforts to keep the falling in love thing going. I was emeshed in it, and it's been a difficult thing to break out of. I am free of it now, finally!

Thanks,
Cynthia

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sat, Apr 07, 2001 at 20:35:42 (GMT)
From: PatC
Email: None
To: Pat
Subject: Above post FROM cynthia TO PatC
Message:
Well, Cynthia, as the urug said in Portland recently: ''You can only recognize the Master when there is affection.''

Take the love out of the equation and he is obviously just another businessman making money out of the god scam.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sat, Apr 07, 2001 at 19:34:23 (GMT)
From: Joe
Email: None
To: Pat Conlon
Subject: Not so sure, Pat
Message:
Very interesting analysis, Pat.

Clearly, as has been commented about on this Forum for years, the the fight with the mind is and was the most damaging part of the practice of knowledge, to which many of us can testify from personal experience. It certainly was miserable, even if it wasn't destructive. But I would be careful in suggesting that simply practicing the techniques would lead to 'madness and confusion.' I just think they are completely ineffective at doing much of anything, besides wasting time. Suggesting that they might actually hurt someone who practices them implies some kind of power that I don't think they have. It's the idea of meditation that the premies 'like' it isn't what they actually do, or what they actually 'experience.' I think the 'mind is the devil,' destructive belief system, exists even if somebody doesn't do the techniques at all. It's completely unrelated to the techniques.

Bhakti yoga, or guru-worship, is completely out of place in the west and as we have seen always produces dysfunctional cults.

Sounds like it's actually out of place in India too. I know there are large anti-Guru movements in India to rid people of what is seen as an archaic, destructive system. But, suggesting that the reason guru-worshp is 'dysfunctional' is because of cultural differences, I think, is false, and actually plays into the cult's argument that the whole problem just boils down to cultural misunderstandings. It's equally bogus in both cultures in my opinion, even though there is more of a history of it in one.

Also, I don't think M's Catholic education is much of an influence in this regard, because the Catholic Church, unlike a lot of other sects, isn't the least bit messianic, and never has been, at least not for several centuries.

Finally, I think calling Maharaji the anti-Christ also gives him more 'credit' than he is due. You make it sound like if he had his head scewed on right he could really help people by spreading yoga techniques that really would promote mental health. Again, since I think those techniques are basically worthless, although some people might find them relaxing (but no more beneficial than a stress-relief/stress management class), I don't think that's true. Fraud, yes. Scheister, yes. But anti-Christ, no.

Finally, despite TM's bogus studies and claims, I have never seen any good evidence that meditation techniques, with or without some kind of belief system attached, promote mental health, and certainly no evidence that they do so to any greater degree than anything else. It's all anecdotal and subjective, always boiling down to the infamous 'this is my experience.'

My point here is that I don't believe Maharaji is just misguided from a 'good' path of helping and teaching people. I don't think, even if he promoted the 'right' techniques, and didn't put himself in the middle of the whole process, that he would really be benefitting anyone. He would be, like Gregg said, be a two-bit relaxation/meditation instructor in some college town, making a meager living on people who think it's groovy to try to get mellow through meditation.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sat, Apr 07, 2001 at 20:39:27 (GMT)
From: PatC
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: Joe, I think your post deserves more of a response
Message:
than I have time for right now as I have to go to work. You raised too many important points and i want to respond carefully. I'll get back to you.
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sun, Apr 08, 2001 at 17:33:47 (GMT)
From: PatC
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: ......and here it is
Message:
As promised, Joe, here are my answers to the important points that you raised.

You said: Clearly, as has been commented about on this Forum for years, the fight with the mind is and was the most damaging part of the practice of knowledge, to which many of us can testify from personal experience. It certainly was miserable, even if it wasn't destructive. But I would be careful in suggesting that simply practicing the techniques would lead to 'madness and confusion.' I just think they are completely ineffective at doing much of anything, besides wasting time. Suggesting that they might actually hurt someone who practices them implies some kind of power that I don't think they have. It's the idea of meditation that the premies 'like' it isn't what they actually do, or what they actually 'experience.' I think the 'mind is the devil,' destructive belief system, exists even if somebody doesn't do the techniques at all. It's completely unrelated to the techniques.

Rev Rawat's teachings (for lack of a better word) are of course the most damaging aspect of Maharajism. I always thought that he had mistakenly chosen the word ''mind'' to describe ''uncontrolled imagination'' because English was his second language and he was uneducated. So I cut him some slack. But the fact is that Rawat Senior also used the Hindi word for ''mind'' to define what the ''enemy within'' was. I now realize that it is a calculated strategy to create self-doubt and keep the guru in business.

Yes, the techniques in themselves without the Maharajism are quite harmless. However anyone who practices them is obviously investing some sort of hope or expectation of achieving something from them. It is this expectation, not the techniques, which can be dangerous if unrealistic. The techniques can be harmful if taught irresponsibly and with exaggerated claims as Rawat does.

You quoted me as saying: ''Bhakti yoga, or guru-worship, is completely out of place in the west and as we have seen always produces dysfunctional cults.''

And then commented: Sounds like it's actually out of place in India too. I know there are large anti-Guru movements in India to rid people of what is seen as an archaic, destructive system. But, suggesting that the reason guru-worshp is 'dysfunctional' is because of cultural differences, I think, is false, and actually plays into the cult's argument that the whole problem just boils down to cultural misunderstandings. It's equally bogus in both cultures in my opinion, even though there is more of a history of it in one.

Thank you for pointing that out. I did not make my real thoughts clear there. Guruism may have had a value in the past for peasants IF the guru were ethical but I do not believe that it is a harmless religion. Nine times out of ten it is simply a way of making money and gaining power. I will be very happy to see the end to the guru business altogether here and in India. But the god business is very lucrative and that might not happen over-night.

You said: Also, I don't think M's Catholic education is much of an influence in this regard, because the Catholic Church, unlike a lot of other sects, isn't the least bit messianic, and never has been, at least not for several centuries.

I agree. I raised the point because I wanted to discuss Sitaram's contention that Rawat Senior was a messianic christian but did not develop the thought correctly. My post was only notes. I am still studying the Radhasoami/Christian connection but now I must simply concede that you are right in pointing out my error.

You said: I think calling Maharaji the anti-Christ also gives him more 'credit' than he is due. You make it sound like if he had his head scewed on right he could really help people by spreading yoga techniques that really would promote mental health. Again, since I think those techniques are basically worthless, although some people might find them relaxing (but no more beneficial than a stress-relief/stress management class), I don't think that's true. Fraud, yes. Scheister, yes. But anti-Christ, no.

I added that sentence about the anti-Christ once I had copied and pasted my notes into FV and regretted saying it almost as soon as I clicked the SUBMIT button. I'm an idiot sometimes and cannot resist sounding pompous and exaggeratedly theatrical. I absolutely agree with you.

You continued: Finally, despite TM's bogus studies and claims, I have never seen any good evidence that meditation techniques, with or without some kind of belief system attached, promote mental health, and certainly no evidence that they do so to any greater degree than anything else. It's all anecdotal and subjective, always boiling down to the infamous 'this is my experience.'

Yes, not everyone will get something out of meditation and it definitely is NOT the only way to achieve peace of mind. TM teaches mantras which I know nothing about. But cardiologists now regularly teach pranayama (breath meditation) to lower blood-pressure and reduce stress. It is a technique that is common to most schools of meditation and seems to work for a lot of people but not all.

You end: My point here is that I don't believe Maharaji is just misguided from a 'good' path of helping and teaching people. I don't think, even if he promoted the 'right' techniques, and didn't put himself in the middle of the whole process, that he would really be benefitting anyone. He would be, like Gregg said, be a two-bit relaxation/meditation instructor in some college town, making a meager living on people who think it's groovy to try to get mellow through meditation.

Precisely! And his handful of students certainly would not be able to provide him with homes on four continents, jet planes and fancy yachts. And it looks like Oprah will be putting even those two-bit meditation teachers out of business soon.

No, meditation is like wine. Not everybody enjoys wine or even gets the same result from drinking it. It is not a necessity of life and is merely something to be enjoyed by those who want to do it. Not everyone wants to experience altered states of consciousness.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sat, Apr 07, 2001 at 11:17:18 (GMT)
From: CD
Email: None
To: Pat Conlon
Subject: light
Message:
>I don't know if Rawat Senior started the eyeball-squeezing routine but that was definitely a corruption of that technique. Squeezing the eyeballs produces phonemes which uneducated peasants (and tripped out acid-heads) could believe to be the Divine Light of God.

Have you ever had a positive experience from focusing with the light technique? Not the squeezing or some initial idea that you have seen something. But when you get beyond a point of thought and do experience a deep beautiful feeling and possibly something else that you might find hard to explain but makes you wonder.

CD

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sat, Apr 07, 2001 at 20:11:02 (GMT)
From: Pat Conlon
Email: None
To: CD
Subject: CD, when Rawat stopped satsang he silenced us
Message:
You asked: ''Have you ever had a positive experience from focusing with the light technique?''

Yes, I have. Thanks for respondiing. Isn't it nice to be able to talk about it with each other? If we had continued to have satsang we would have all grown and eventually realized that we would like to share this with our friends.

Instead of being secretive and coy about it and putting our friends through Rawat's aspirant nonsense we could have just shown our friends in an open, honest and brotherly way.

But of course that would have put Rev Rawat out of business. There is no need for a guru. Gurus are there just to keep themselves in business. We can get high with a little help from our freinds.

I wish you well.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sat, Apr 07, 2001 at 15:42:47 (GMT)
From: Bryn
Email: bryndaviesesq@hotmail
To: CD
Subject: light
Message:
Dear CD ,
I notice you say 'focusing WITH the light technique' (my caps). What does that mean exactly? I have to ask because it makes a big difference if I am to try to answer your question. Do you mean 'with' in the sense of merging with, or with in the sense of by means of? If its the latter (by means of}, I must ask: focusing WHAT by means of the light technique?

Or do you actually mean focusing ON the light technique? The questions still remain -WHAT is doing the focusing and what is being focused?

Or do you mean that the LIGHT (technique) is focusing too? On 'you' presumably. The next thing to happen would be that you are going to go WITH the light- a merging with? If this is so I have to ask: what happens to YOU at this point? Are you still in relationship WITH the light? Or have you BECOME the light? If so how do you know this happened to you? Is this 'that feeling'?

The point of all this word play, centered as it is around one tiny loose phrase of yours, is to point to a delusory and institutionalised vagueness that comes with K meditation. If I was a happy premie I would just 'know what you mean' and onward we would go. But I actually suspect you of being (deep down)willfully evasive on this, and wrapping the whole thing up in a convention of imprecision. The reason you do this,I suggest, is because you have had no instruction and have not the faintest idea of what your relationships are to the light, the light technique, thought, feeling, or any of the rest of your meditational life. You are accodingly very vulnerable. If M. had a few less students he could perhaps take the time to clarify.
love Bryn

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sat, Apr 07, 2001 at 17:43:56 (GMT)
From: Pat Conlon
Email: None
To: Bryn
Subject: light
Message:
You said: ''The point of all this word play, centered as it is around one tiny loose phrase of yours, is to point to a delusory and institutionalised vagueness that comes with K meditation. If I was a happy premie I would just 'know what you mean' and onward we would go. But I actually suspect you of being (deep down)willfully evasive on this, and wrapping the whole thing up in a convention of imprecision. The reason you do this,I suggest, is because you have had no instruction and have not the faintest idea of what your relationships are to the light, the light technique, thought, feeling, or any of the rest of your meditational life. You are accodingly very vulnerable. If M. had a few less students he could perhaps take the time to clarify.''

Thank you, Bryn, your last sentence said it all. A few hundred students can't supply the money for yachts.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sat, Apr 07, 2001 at 13:47:04 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: CD
Subject: Hey, CD, trying to have a one-way discussion?
Message:
Why should anyone ever answer any of your questions when you won't answer ours? Last time you posted I'd asked you if any of the scandalous things you'd learned here about Maharaji had affected your opinion of him at all. Your answer was to the effect of you like beer or something equally cowardly and ridiculous.

So tell me, why would any one answer any of your questions when you don't do the same?

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Fri, Apr 06, 2001 at 19:42:13 (GMT)
From: Bryn
Email: bryndaviesesq@hotmail.com
To: Pat Conlon
Subject: K techniques numb individuality
Message:
This subject is complex to write about. Thanks for the background Pat.

I attribute a large part of my brainless and uncritical perception of myself in relation to M., to the effect of doing K as 'instructed'.

K meditation confused me in relation to the world around me as well. It wildly stimulated my mystical, visionary, tendencies, keeping me in a state of spiritual arrested development.(It makes you baby-like on the inner planes.)

K. made evaluation of myself in the context of what was happening to me impossible. Formulation of an exact overview of what was happening to me 'in there' couldn't be achieved. I am now winning through to such a picture.

Premies accept M's silence on 'within inside' as authority, even delicacy on his part. I don't think it is. It is a veil, a barrier drawn by an eastern perspective, and I reccomend premies to explore the possibility that 'knowlege' is essentialy an entity that needs expanding on.

Love Bryn

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sat, Apr 07, 2001 at 01:40:51 (GMT)
From: Pat Conlon
Email: None
To: Bryn
Subject: K techniques cause mental conflict and confusion
Message:
I am beginning to suspect that the techs were deliberately taught incorrectly in order to create mental unbalance. The main focus in the guru industry is the guru not the yoga. If he taught them correctly people would have just walked away and said thanks, I understand, that's nice. But selling them as mystical and then showing them in a way that creates hallucinations in some susceptible people really is evil.
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sat, Apr 07, 2001 at 20:00:19 (GMT)
From: Joe
Email: None
To: Pat Conlon
Subject: Not 'techniques.'
Message:
It isn't the 'techniques' that cause problems, it's the belief system. Isnt' that what you mean? The 'techniques' are innocuous; and it's not so much what people even believe about the 'techniques' that is damaging either -- It's what they believe about themselves, about Mahararji, about the system of finding happiness, etc. That's what is really damaging.
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sat, Apr 07, 2001 at 02:07:27 (GMT)
From: moldy warp
Email: None
To: Pat Conlon
Subject: K techniques cause mental conflict and confusion
Message:
yeh and there was that whole shit about surrendering = all about guru not techniques . i remember a friend of mine being completely broken down in a pre-K selection process. - crying for hours - all , at the time, supposed to be part of the surrender process. And I remeber someone going temporarily bongos after getting k and going naked in public ( better not reveal details - confidentiality and all that) and bloody Jagdeo being not in the least concerned!
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Fri, Apr 06, 2001 at 18:53:45 (GMT)
From: Joy
Email: None
To: Pat Conlon
Subject: Awesome Post--EVERYONE PLEASE READ PATs POST!
Message:
Wow, Patrick, that is an awesome post. You said it a thousand times better than I ever could, why I don't believe people should continue to practice 'knowledge' after leaving M. If people wish to continue meditating, find another, more appropriate, less guru-centered way of doing it, there are thousands of them out there.

I know you've been working on this for a long time, and I really appreciated reading it. This post is a 'keeper' and I hope the FA's put it somewhere permanently on the site.

See you soon!
Love,
Joy

P.S. Interesting fact re the phonemes producing the sensation of light. I once had a blinding experience of 'divine light' or whatever you want to call it when opening a very hot gas oven. Completely blinded by light for many seconds. The exact same light I used to see (sometimes!) doing the techniques, only even brighter. Phonemes?

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Fri, Apr 06, 2001 at 18:57:58 (GMT)
From: Pat Conlon
Email: None
To: Joy
Subject: Joy, I really started writing those notes for you
Message:
I was going to email them to you and then decided that I'd share them here.
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Fri, Apr 06, 2001 at 18:27:21 (GMT)
From: Bobby
Email: None
To: Pat Conlon
Subject: meditation - not just for relaxation
Message:
Hi Pat,

You go into some depth here on meditation as a relaxation device and how that relates to Hindu and contemporary contexts.

Pardon me for perhaps not addressing all your concerns here as I don't have a lot of time for this but I would like to mention just a few things.

For one, meditation is a lot more than a simple relaxation technique for some people. I agree that meditation is effective and valuable for peace of mind and relaxation, but there is much more available. Both Hinduism and Buddhism have identified and developed specific practices and techniques to access deep inner states of awareness.

You state: Yoga is surrounded with Hindu mystique and seems so strange and wonderful but the fact is that it is really not much different from sitting quietly and being calm - what the Quakers call ''Silent Prayer.''

That's really not the case in all contexts. In some cases that is correct, some yogas would involve simple sitting practice (which by the way can be quite full and much more, in my view, than simple mind-calming). However, some yogas are quite involved and bring in many modes with mind, body and spirit. Experiential altered states can be quite active.

You also state: The only tradition of romantic love in India is tantric yoga (yab-yum, Shiva-Shakti, Krishna-Radha) and it is regarded as a religious experience.

Tantra yogas are widely misunderstood. Really they are not about 'romantic love' at all. Tantra yogas are secret mantra teachings and practices designed to bring one to enlightenment.

Your words: True yoga and true religion are simply means of attaining mental health, a clear consciousness and a clean conscience, to be at peace with oneself, to be whole, healthy and at ease not ''dis-eased.'' And morality and ethics are all part of it. Honesty and respect of neighbor is essential to peace of mind.

I agree with this very much and would add that there is more to the spiritual path. Maharaji I don't think has a clue. Actually I think his perception of spirituality is about 'calming' (or getting rid of?) the mind. M seems very grounded in materialism. That could be OK I guess as a basis, but grasping at that brings much suffering.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Fri, Apr 06, 2001 at 20:03:56 (GMT)
From: Pat Conlon
Email: None
To: Bobby
Subject: Bobby re tantra
Message:
Yes, sorry I did use the word Tantra incorrectly but it is the way it is currently understood in the west. I have read that tantra came from Tibet to the pre-Vedic Indus valley and that Shiva may have been a Tibetan. The Shiva Puranas use the word correctly. I wanted to use the phrase shakti yoga or kundalini yoga but did not feel like having to explain those so I chose tantra (in it's incorrect but popularly understood form) as short-cut colloquialism.
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Fri, Apr 06, 2001 at 18:46:52 (GMT)
From: Gregg
Email: None
To: Bobby
Subject: relaxation and meditation
Message:
Good posts, Pat C. and Bobby. Meditation is primarily a form of relaxation for many folks. The 'corpse pose' in hatha yoga, where you lie on your back and progressively relax all your muscles from bottom to top, is very relaxing.

There are some forms of meditation, though, that while very invigorating and refreshing, are not exactly designed for 'relaxation.' I'm referring to 'energy' meditations (often involving breath, visualizations, mantra, chakras, etc.) that are designed to 'change state', or 'access deep inner states of awareness' as Bobby puts it.

The 'four techniques' can sometimes relsult in relaxation or changed state, although Bobby and Pat and I and many other exes have found techniques that work better for us.

It seems as if many of us have found techniques that don't stress the dichotomy between 'inner' and 'outer' that Maharajism was so into. All of the theological dualisms implicit in Maharajism definitely informed our experience of meditation.

This duality encouraged us to do way too much inner monitoring, preferring one state over another. This is the antithesis of what enlightenment is all about, and this is why so few premies ever seemed to experience that relaxed and compassionate and all-inclusive awareness that's labeled 'enlightenment.' We were too tense and selfish and worried and goal-driven and indoctrinated to really 'get it.' I was, anyway!

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Fri, Apr 06, 2001 at 18:54:38 (GMT)
From: Pat Conlon
Email: None
To: Gregg
Subject: relaxation and meditation, Bobby and Gregg
Message:
I hear both of your viewpoints. I just am very cautious and somewhat reluctant to talk about subjective experiences. For me the starting point is mental health and after that the sky's the limit. My main point was that Rawat completely misses the mental health aspects and we have seen the consequences of that both in his personal life (booze) and in the dysfunctionality of his premies. Without mental health the rest is dangerous.
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sat, Apr 07, 2001 at 03:30:40 (GMT)
From: Helen
Email: None
To: Pat Conlon
Subject: mental health is numero uno
Message:
Pat, I am really with you on this, and I have enjoyed reading your analysis. I am fascinated by your well supported hypothesis that M's techniques actually furthered mental conflict. I've heard several people here, including Sir D, say that M's meditation made them feel horrible.

I am in complete agreement with you about mental health being the essential foundation. I believe that it is job number one, kind of like the hard drive on the computer. Everything else is a floppy for me. Spiritual or religious practices that negate, belittle, or minimize mental health are anything *but* 'spiritual.'

Thanks for putting your thoughts up here. I have been working on a diagram which outlines the cycle of trauma of people in cults (what happens to their bodies when they disown their minds). You might be interested in it.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sat, Apr 07, 2001 at 03:52:33 (GMT)
From: Helen
Email: None
To: Pat
Subject: mental health is numero uno part 2
Message:
Gurus and teachers who subject their devotees/students to humiliations or enormous stress, or separate them from their loved ones in the name of the devotee's greater 'spiritual growth' or to 'help them surrender' are in the category of mental health killers for me. It's so damaging to people to have spirituality equated with madness, and pain. It's so UN-spiritual for one human being to treat another this way.
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sat, Apr 07, 2001 at 19:16:49 (GMT)
From: Cynthia
Email: None
To: Helen
Subject: Helen, I'd be very interested in your diagram...
Message:
It sounds fasinating and I think it would be of help to me and others.

Would it be possible to post it here?

Thanks,
Cynthia

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sat, Apr 07, 2001 at 05:19:51 (GMT)
From: Pat Conlon
Email: None
To: Helen
Subject: Yes, Helen, I'd like to see your diagram
Message:
Chuck has just given me an essay on the New Thought Movement. He's studied this for a while but it is all new and facinating to me. Do you know what I'm talking about?
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Mon, Apr 09, 2001 at 02:13:00 (GMT)
From: Helen
Email: None
To: Pat Conlon/Cynthia
Subject: my theory (or diagram)
Message:
Here it is, quickly, before aol bumps me off again. I am not sure how to represent this visually.

The aspirant listens to incoherent stuff over and over again. His/her body and mind want 'out' and the stress pattern begins. At this stage, if the aspirant leaves the cult environment, he or she can recover fairly easily from the stress. Many devotees start to have mental or physical stress symptoms at this point.(diagram 1)

After awhile, the brain that used to work with the body to process and resolve traumatic experiences, switches off and the devotee starts letting others do his/her thinking. This is very pernicious. It's part of the brainwashing process, and sets the chronic patterns of a body-mind split into motion. (diagram 2)

The dynamics in diagram 1 and 2 continue until the devotee begins to see his mind as a separate entity from himself. He has now disowned the Self and has split off from himself. He no longer trusts his own hunches or bodily signals. A good example of this would be Joan Aptor saying that sometimes 'her mind wished that Maharaji would die in a plane crash so this would all be over.' physical or mental problems become worse and start becoming chronic at this stage. (diagram 3)

The devotee is now in a very vulnerable state, having disowned his mind and body. The locus of control is no longer inside him but 'out there.' He sometimes thinks that Maharaji is making his every breath happen or that maharaji is giving him certain experiences in meditation. He has completely bought the concept that the world is not to be trusted and no longer engages in 'worldly' activities. In this vulnerable state it is hard to keep a job, have a fulfilling intimate relationship, or stick up for himself in the normal daily squirmishes that constitute adult life. (diagram 5)

END POINT OF THE CYCLE--digram 6: CONGRATULATIONS MAHARAJI!! You have now re-created the world for someone and made him into a zombie. It will possibly take years for this human being to get out of your grip. He or she will possibly be plagued with chronic mental or physical illness which was set into motion when the mind and body went into a state of splitting and when body systems shut down (a phenomena also called 'hibernation' in fibromyalgia and chronic fatigue research) in an effort to cope with the traumas of cult life.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Mon, Apr 09, 2001 at 02:52:24 (GMT)
From: Helen
Email: None
To: Pat/ Cynthia
Subject: my theory (or diagram) part2
Message:
The diagram needs to have a feedback loop drawn in around stage 6. The frustrating interactions the devotee has with the world (in stage 6) due to his inability to cope as his brain is no longer functioning, reinforce his superstituous beliefs about the world and cause him to further cling to the meditation and pray to Maharaji. So his frustrations never get resolved, and his childlike coping mechanism (clinging to the lotus feet), keep him dependent and weak.

NOW, how does all this get resolved???

This theory needs something positive at the end. THE HEALING PROCESS, stage 7--Ideally, the person reclaims all his/her disowned thoughts/feelings/physical symptoms. Thus begins the process of the ex-devotee becoming, in the words of Joseph Campbell, 'the authority of his own life.' He gave up the authority or power at the point where he started to disown his own thoughts, feelings, and bodily symptoms as 'other' (or 'Mr. Mind')

BTW, I envision this as one diagram with different stages, so I really should have said 'Stage 1, Stage 2,' etc (instead of 'diagram 1, diagram 2,' etc)

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Mon, Apr 09, 2001 at 08:03:57 (GMT)
From: Pat Conlon
Email: None
To: Helen
Subject: Helen, please repost this as a NEW THREAD
Message:
This thread will be gone by tomorrow and I would like everybody to see this. I was tempted to repost it as a new thread myself but felt that I should ask you to do it first.

Despite the revisionism a lot of this is still taking place albeit in a slightly more subtle way. Please think about posting it as a new thread. It will be sure to generate a lot of discussion. To me, this is the crux of the matter.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Fri, Apr 06, 2001 at 20:07:44 (GMT)
From: Bobby
Email: None
To: Pat Conlon
Subject: spirituality and mental health
Message:
Actually depends on what you mean as 'mental health' as well. Thirty years ago I was diagnosed as schizophrenic. I consider these same 'schizophrenic' experiences to be visionary encounters. They put me way out of balance. However, I could never leave the enormous effect they had on the way I perceive 'what is' and how I live my life.

Conventional psychiatry did not work for me, just as it does not work for many. The psychiatric drugs were poison. Psychiatry and drugs may work for some. The only thing that has worked for me to come to terms with my life experiences are the profound spiritual teachings, for me, this is in Tibetan Buddhism.

I consider authentic spiritual perspectives, whatever they may be, to be vital for those of us who have 'gone off the deep end' and who are more or less mentally dysfunctional vis a vis widely held societal norms.

I have strong interest in spiritual perspectives and practices for mental health survivors and consumers and have done a lot of work in these areas. Next month I'll be doing a workshop called Meditation and the Healing Path.

I agree that meditation for ordinary relaxation is important. Important for me, too. I just wanted to point out that there are other contexts and frames of reference for spirituality. These are notably absent with Maharaji.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sat, Apr 07, 2001 at 00:00:34 (GMT)
From: Pat Conlon
Email: None
To: Bobby
Subject: spirituality and mental health
Message:
I'm not a very spiritual person. When I lived in a catholic monastery I was always being told that I was materialistic and had no faith. So I'm not the best person to talk with about that.

The more I have read about schizophrenia and autism the more I am inclined to think that these are not states of insanity but something else altogether which has not yet been explained.

By insanity I mean psychopathy/sociopathy. Other states of mental dis-ease are not insanity but neurosis or being anxious due to imagined fears which probably everybody has exeperienced in adulthood. By sanity I mean having strength, self-confidence, equanimity, serenity and bravery. Having a clean conscience is the most important part.

But I'm an ignoramus when it come to psychology too.

Mostly what I was getting at is that Rawat's Knowledge can actually cause mental instability because he teaches yoga incorrectly probably deliberately to create fear of the mind and dependence on him. Also the concepts that he stuffs down premies' throats are ignorant, negative and designed to create confusion and distrust of one's own reason.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Fri, Apr 06, 2001 at 19:52:13 (GMT)
From: Gregg
Email: None
To: Pat Conlon
Subject: mental health is number one: Yes! (nt)
Message:
b
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Fri, Apr 06, 2001 at 18:19:02 (GMT)
From: Steve Quint
Email: the_avenger55@hotmail.com
To: Pat Conlon
Subject: Rev Rawat's ''Knowledge'' is a perversion
Message:
All I would like to add is that when, from time to time, I have gone back to the video presentations in the past eight months I have found the pwk's to be very strange. If there are new aspirants, they will be part of a very odd strain of 21st century superstitious people looking for answers from a disgraced teacher when they would be better off in therapy and/or twelve-step programs, etc.

It seems like in many ways the most lasting and pervasive remnant of rawat's teaching and 'knowledge' is spiritual snobbery. Not a very impressive result of thirty years in the west - years where the world has been moving very quickly.

Steve

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Fri, Apr 06, 2001 at 17:39:45 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Pat Conlon
Subject: Thanks for the background, Pat (nt)
Message:
gggggg
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Fri, Apr 06, 2001 at 16:34:23 (GMT)
From: Katie H
Email: None
To: Pat Conlon
Subject: Rev Rawat's simplified ''Knowledge''
Message:
Hi Pat -
Re the wrong teaching of the techniques, there was a man that posted here years ago who received K from one of SatPal's mahatmas after the Guru Puja festival in Amherst (don't ask me how he got out to India). He said he was taught NINE techniques - the extra ones involved the breath and emphasis not just on the so-hum sound. (Please do not ask me for the exact details, as he was reluctant to reveal them - but he did say they are around out there).

When he came back to the U.S. he went to one of Maharaji's K reviews and thought that the person giving the review had shortened it by leaving off some of the techniques! He later realized that the supposed 'Knowledge' meditation had been similified for Westerners.

Bobby Manrodt also said something similar to this, based on something he was told, or found out, when he was at PremNagar in 1972 (I cannot remember exactly - if Bobby is out there, maybe he could clarify).

Anyway, they both indicated that the so-called sacred four techniques weren't all there was. This was a big revelation for me - and for others here.

BTW, they have radically changed the way they teach the techniques (although not the number of techniques) since I received K - it's on the site. This also leads me to doubt that these techniques are set in stone and handed down from the ages.

Take care,
Katie

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Fri, Apr 06, 2001 at 17:43:47 (GMT)
From: Bobby
Email: None
To: Katie H
Subject: Differences with K presentation
Message:
Hi Katie,

Yes, re: alternate presentations of K.

I was in India at Prem Nagar for the 1971 as part of the 'Westerner' invasion. Divine Light Mission had chartered a 747 that left from England. At this time I was involved with collating and I think stapling some DLM pamphlets. I clearly remember reading through at least a few of these that spoke of more Hindu oriented techniques that were part of knowledge. This included a lengthy references to the value of the sacred syllable OM.

These DLM pamphlets disappeared. I wish I had saved some.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Fri, Apr 06, 2001 at 17:45:54 (GMT)
From: Katie H
Email: None
To: Bobby
Subject: Differences with K presentation
Message:
Hi Bobby -
Wow, synchronicity :)! As I recall, 'om' was used in one of the alternate breath techniques.

Thanks for answering!
Love,
Katie

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Fri, Apr 06, 2001 at 18:35:28 (GMT)
From: Bobby
Email: None
To: Katie H
Subject: Differences with K presentation
Message:
Hi Katie!

Don't recall whether OM was presented as a breathing thing. Did I say that? Memory gets sparser for some things as I get older... =:)

I love what Francesca signed with a week or two ago,
something like 'a collection of points with perceptions'. Somehow that comes in here and that's pretty much what I think of myself as these days.

Love, Bobby

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Fri, Apr 06, 2001 at 14:56:32 (GMT)
From: Mike Finch
Email: None
To: Pat Conlon
Subject: Rev Rawat's ''Knowledge'' is a perversion
Message:
Hi Pat

A good post, and mirrors what I have been going through recently.

For a month or two now I have been doing the meditation that I originally did 32 years ago before I got K.

This is a form of Buddhist Vipassana meditation, and in essence involves choosing some inner point in yourself, and focusing on it. But you are not concentrating on it in a one-pointed way, but rather you are aware of everything else going on around you and within you, with your peripheral awareness as it were. Having identified being aware of something else, you gently disengage from it and re-focus on whatever your center point is, in this open-ended way.

Now there are many traditions as to what this inner point should be, but many just say it does not matter - it can be anything: your breath, the sensation of air moving in your nose, the rise and fall of your abdomen, the tongue in your mouth, counting your breaths, whatever - it doesn't matter.

As I say, I have been doing this for a while, and find it really good - refreshing, clear, and I have learnt alot about myself in doing it.

A few days ago, I thought: if it doesn't matter what this starting point you choose actually is, what would happen if I used the K
techniques as the central point (one after the other) and practice the Vipassana meditation around them ?

As you said in your post, this is not the Forum to get into meditation techniques, so I won't go into my personal experience, but I find the results interesting.

You also say that the main agenda for this Forum is to bring M to account, as you put it.

For my side, this is not my priority. My priority is to accept that I am where I am now, and to decide where and how to move forward. This is the main reason that I do not post so much on the Forum - the main agenda is not my agenda. That does not mean I don't sympathise with it, just that my time is limited and I have to prioritise, and my priority is 'what do I do now' rather than 'why am I here, or how did I get here, and can I blame M for it'.

This thread topic is unusual on this Forum, but I am delighted to see it, and felt I must post to it. If ever a Forum opens up where this kind of topic IS the main agenda, I will be much more active in it.

-- Mike

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Fri, Apr 06, 2001 at 17:58:20 (GMT)
From: Bobby
Email: None
To: Mike Finch
Subject: post-K spirituality
Message:
Hi Mike,

Though I've pretty much consistently practiced meditation from the time I first received knowledge, 30 years ago, I haven't done the orthodox set of techniques for most of that time. As part of my basic set of daily spiritual practice I do my own version of simple breath meditation. I also do kechari mudra, the nectar. I'm now very much a Tibetan Buddhist.

Also, I left M years ago and so, while I sympathize with those who feel hurt and abused, I have no interest in participating in much of what goes on in this forum. Actually I am interested very much in various anecdotal and first person accounts of ex-premies and ex-premies. I've enjoyed your posts.

There is some discussion on the 'Recent ex forum' regarding various takes on spiritual practice. Contact Helen if you are interested in joining.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Fri, Apr 06, 2001 at 17:39:16 (GMT)
From: Jean-Michel
Email: None
To: Mike Finch
Subject: Vipassana + m's techniques
Message:
A few days ago, I thought: if it doesn't matter what this starting point you choose actually is, what would happen if I used the K
techniques as the central point (one after the other) and practice the Vipassana meditation around them ?

This is exactly the way I've been practicing the k techniques since 1974 (when I also took a Vipassana course - because I was feeling frustrated with m's meditation), and always benefitted from meditation afterwards.

I've always found m's way of explaining the techniques a bit odd, and as a matter of fact I know that most persons who've received k never had a chance to get something from meditation ....

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Fri, Apr 06, 2001 at 17:35:51 (GMT)
From: Pat Conlon
Email: None
To: Mike Finch
Subject: Hi, Mike,
Message:
Like you, my priority is not to bring Rawat to account but to move on. But that is the main item on the FV agenda so whenever my interests overlap I will contribute.

Although I haven't checked it out, there is a forum where more of these types of topics are discussed and that is the Recent Exes Forum. Someone here should be able to direct you to that. I haven't had the time to check it out.

Unfortunately I have also become very fond of a handful of posters here and I thoroughly enjoy my conversations with them and end up posting and responding and generally spending far too much time here.

Chuck and I actually did get a forum together to discuss post-Maharajism meditation but it is just sitting there as neither of us have had the time to get it off the ground. Perhaps, if there is interest, we should.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Fri, Apr 06, 2001 at 17:43:58 (GMT)
From: Katie H.
Email: None
To: Pat Conlon
Subject: Pat, please read JHB and my posts re 'agenda' (nt)
Message:
Sorry, I feel like I'm spamming this thread!
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Fri, Apr 06, 2001 at 17:59:28 (GMT)
From: Pat Conlon
Email: None
To: Katie H.
Subject: Katie H and JHB re Forum agenda
Message:
I understood your admonishments that ''bringing Rawat to account is not the only item on the agenda.'' In the short while that I have been here I have seen that the exes do not really have a collective agenda.

I mostly don't like to talk about meditation in particular as it is really only interesting to a handful of people here and also because I am very aware that it is not necessary for most and that there are also many different ways for those who want to do it to practice.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sat, Apr 07, 2001 at 01:32:29 (GMT)
From: Katie H
Email: None
To: Pat Conlon
Subject: Thanks, Pat
Message:
It was just that you said 'the forum agenda IS...', which, as you said above, is not true.

Also, maybe people aren't interested in meditation per se, but I think more people would be interested in discussing life after K. You seem to have gotten a lot of answers to your post, anyway.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Fri, Apr 06, 2001 at 16:50:38 (GMT)
From: Berni
Email: None
To: Mike Finch
Subject: Rev Rawat's ''Knowledge'' is a perversion
Message:
Hi Mike & Pat,
I enjoyed reading your posts and like what you say, Mike, about having a forum to discuss where we go from here and how to get the most out of life rather than discredit our ex 'master'. I used to pop in to this forum in it's early days and found it useful to read the irreverant jibes and debunking of the whole charabang. I got tired of it all though and became a very irregular visitor - never really adding anything to the debate. Another reason was lack of time and opportunity which is still the case although I do seem to have the odd half hour to peruse the posts lately.
Meditation is an interesting subject and, although its many years since I tried to do it, I still wonder if it has any value. Your writing is very persuasive Pat but I still am not convinced of why sitting still and concentrating on something pretty boring is good for you. I think these days I would also have the problem of grim association with the premie regime even if just sat in the lotus position.
I share Anths view that whatever you see, hear or experience by trying these techniques is nothing 'spiritual'. I don't even know what spiritual means.
However I agree with Katie when she talks about using a method to calm the mind. There are times when worrying about something can keep you awake and even lead to depression. It would be nice to have a technique to control over-thinking. Also to control physical pain. I've seen documentaries where people are being operated on, including a lady having her stomach completely cut open and poked inside whilst she chatted to the nurse, all under the influence of hypnosis. I don't know much about it but self hypnosis sounds like a type of meditation.
Anything to make the cruise through life easier would be good so long as there are no religious connections.
If you don't mind me asking Mike, are you the premie who used to study Nuclear Physics or something similar and give satsang around London a long long time ago (1970's). If so I always enjoyed your intelligent talks, a refreshing change from 'it's like, you know, far out, the lord has come to us this day etc.'.
There were a few times in St Peters Church hall and other such places ( very few) when the pain of sitting on a hard floor and the tiredness,hunger, feelings of inadequacy etc. were in abeyance and somebody was saying something interesting.
I must stop now I'm having an unwelcome flashback
Berni
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Fri, Apr 06, 2001 at 19:20:15 (GMT)
From: Mike Finch
Email: None
To: Berni
Subject: Rev Rawat's ''Knowledge'' is a perversion
Message:
Bernie writes: 'If you don't mind me asking Mike, are you the premie who used to study Nuclear Physics or something similar and give satsang around London a long long time ago (1970's).'

Yes, that was me.

-- Mike

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Fri, Apr 06, 2001 at 19:26:08 (GMT)
From: berni
Email: None
To: Mike Finch
Subject: Rev Rawat's ''Knowledge'' is a perversion
Message:
Thanks Mike,
An honour to make your aquaintance.
I look forward to your future posts.
Berni.
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Fri, Apr 06, 2001 at 16:56:52 (GMT)
From: Katie H
Email: None
To: Berni
Subject: Rev Rawat's ''Knowledge'' is a perversion
Message:
Hi Berni -
You can read my post to Mercedes and Connie below to see what I do to calm my mind. I don't know if most people would call it meditation, but it works for me. I want to emphasize that I don't think there is any 'one size fits all' meditation for everyone.

Also, I agree with you that self-hypnosis, as practiced, is a form of meditation.

BTW, I NEVER sit on the floor to do meditation, because of the associations you describe. (Too many memories of wondering when the hour is going to be up!) I sit in a chair or lie down. I WELCOME it if I fall asleep. It's nice not to have strict rules about what you 'should' do.

Take care,
Katie

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Fri, Apr 06, 2001 at 19:13:21 (GMT)
From: berni
Email: None
To: Katie H
Subject: Rev Rawat's ''Knowledge'' is a perversion
Message:
Hi Katie - we meet again,
Nothing to say really except that I know what you mean.
Falling asleep is ok sometimes.
I am still in two minds about the benefits of 'meditation' although I would love to have some sort of method of turning on and dropping out of the vale of tears that life sometimes seems to be.
Berni
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Fri, Apr 06, 2001 at 16:12:49 (GMT)
From: Jerry
Email: None
To: Mike Finch
Subject: Not off topic, Mike
Message:
Mike,

On topic posts are NOT limited to trashing Maharaji. Re-examining his lessons and their value, or lack of, is just as much on topic. That includes a re-examination of the meditation techniques he teaches and what they're really good for, or in my case, why they're useless.

If meditation's true purpose is to heighten awareness then meditation, as far as I am concerned, defeats itself, for the simple reason that it ignores the fact that we already ARE conscious. It leads you to believe that meditation is required to achieve something you already are born with.

If you want to 'be in the now', just wake up and realize that you already are. Meditation is not a requirement for this. In fact, it's a waste of time. The only reason I can see for people meditating is if it's a means for them to achieve states of awareness not ordinarilly available to them. Some people seem to be able to do that. I'm not one of them, nor do I want to be.

It's become clear that Maharaji has downplayed the effects of meditation to the point where all you should hope for from it is an appreciation of life. That's a far cry from 'realizing God' which is what the original objective was. When was the last time you heard Maharaji talk about his unique power to reveal God to those searching for him? Looooong time ago.

So, since Mahararaji is no longer in the business of openning third eyes to see God with, and meditation is not even touted anymore as having the ability to do that, who needs it, and what for, to be conscious? We already are.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Fri, Apr 06, 2001 at 16:21:00 (GMT)
From: Katie H
Email: None
To: Jerry
Subject: Jerry, re meditation
Message:
Hi Jerry -
If you want to 'be in the now', just wake up and realize that you already are. Meditation is not a requirement for this. In fact, it's a waste of time. The only reason I can see for people meditating is if it's a means for them to achieve states of awareness not ordinarilly available to them. Some people seem to be able to do that. I'm not one of them, nor do I want to be.

I'm not going to even touch the spiritual aspect of this (for obvious reasons), but I don't think meditation is a 'waste of time'. Waking up and realizing that you are 'in the now' and keeping that perception IS what some people call 'walking meditation'. Regarding sitting down and meditating, it's very helpful to people like me who have extremely active minds. I'm not saying that that is a BAD thing - obviously, it's really helpful to me at time - but sometimes I just need to get away from it, and meditating (of some sort - just focusing on something that isn't a problem I have to solve) really helps me.

I don't see it as being a waste of time - it actually helps me NOT waste time by worrying things to death in my head, and giving me a broader perspective. I would never say that 'everyone should meditate', and I would especially not say that everyone should meditate in a certain way, but I don't think you should discount it for everyone.

Take care,
Katie

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Fri, Apr 06, 2001 at 16:02:16 (GMT)
From: JHB
Email: None
To: Mike Finch
Subject: I agree Mike, and disagree, Pat.
Message:
Mike wrote:-

You (Pat) also say that the main agenda for this Forum is to bring M to account, as you put it.

For my side, this is not my priority. My priority is to accept that I am where I am now, and to decide where and how to move forward. This is the main reason that I do not post so much on the Forum - the main agenda is not my agenda.

Although Pat wrote that as though it were an accepted truth, this is far from the case. I'm sure it's true for Pat as he's feeling now, although that could change. No, the main purpose of this forum for me (and I know, for others) is helping exes in the process of coming to terms with having held Maharaji in unreasonably high regard for so long, and then no longer doing so. That includes, of course, our need to decide how to move forward without him. Two other important purposes are helping current premies leave the cult, and informing aspirants about what they're trying to get into.

John.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sat, Apr 07, 2001 at 23:40:21 (GMT)
From: PatC
Email: None
To: JHB
Subject: You are right, John. Thanks for clearing that up.
Message:
I did word that very badly.

I said: ''I have decided not to talk about that subject here unless it relates directly to the main agenda which is to bring Rev Rawat to account.''

I should have said that talking about meditation, while not the main FOCUS on FV, can be one of the other topics we discuss especially if it helps aspirants to see what they're getting into or helps premies see what they have gotten into or helps exes with similar interests.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sat, Apr 07, 2001 at 19:49:30 (GMT)
From: Joe
Email: None
To: JHB
Subject: Thanks, John, I completely agree (nt)
Message:
nt
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Fri, Apr 06, 2001 at 16:12:17 (GMT)
From: Katie H
Email: None
To: JHB
Subject: Thanks, John, well put! (nt)
Message:
nt
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Fri, Apr 06, 2001 at 16:00:04 (GMT)
From: Katie H.
Email: None
To: Mike Finch
Subject: Pat and Mike - 'Main Agenda?'
Message:
I don't think talking about meditation, or about 'life after Maharaji', as Wildflower brought up once, is off topic OR 'distracts from the main agenda' here. I think it's something relevant that a lot of people might want to discuss - and it has been spoken about here before.

JMHO - but I don't think we should limit the topic here unnecessarily.

Take care,
Katie

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Fri, Apr 06, 2001 at 15:31:45 (GMT)
From: Way
Email: None
To: Mike Finch
Subject: Rev Rawat's meditation
Message:
Do premies ever practice the meditation of Rawat's Knowledge exactly as he prescribes it? And do they like it?

I gave away my baragon to one of my ashram brothers, years before Rawat advised against baragons. I found all the body postures that require a support to be entirely distracting. I did not want to put my thumbs in my ears, or my fingers on my eyeballs, or my tongue in the back of my throat. And I didn't want to say so hung over and over again or be aware of my breath.

What I wanted was that experience of entering into the silence where the light shines, leaving behind all tensions, to humbly approach whatever higher powers may be, and to find my muse, in order to co-create a worthwhile life where 'Beauty is Truth and Truth is Beauty, and that is all ye know on Earth and all ye need to know.'

I long ago found what works for me, and I don't constantly give myself reviews about it.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Fri, Apr 06, 2001 at 14:14:19 (GMT)
From: Wildflower
Email: None
To: Pat Conlon
Subject: Rev Rawat's ''Knowledge'' is a perversion
Message:
Absolutely fascinating post! You win the historical research award!I am definately interested in pursuing this further with you in person or by e-mail. I will be in touch.
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Fri, Apr 06, 2001 at 09:58:42 (GMT)
From: AJW
Email: None
To: Pat Conlon
Subject: Pat, fancy a discussion?
Message:
I was reading one of your posts below, where you gave the impression you were all for people practising Knowledge, but thought Rawat had been incredible bad PR, for what you see as a valid practice.

When I was shackled to the Captain's feet, one of the things that kept me there was, 'Knowledge.'

I just did the light technique for a few seconds (poke yourself simultaneously in two eyes). My experience was the as when I was a believer. Same if I do the breathing technique, noise in the ear, or snot technique.

I experience exactly the same as I ever did.

The only thing that's changed is that I no longer believe those coloured patterns I see when I press my eyeballs is 'Divine Light'. I no longer believe that when I concentrate on my breathing, I am connecting to the source of inner peace.

I really have thrown all my ideas about the experience away. And what's left? Something on the same level as when you lay on your back and watch those funny, semi transparent, microbe shapes, drifting across your retina on the backdrop of a blue sky.

It's nothing to do with anything sprititual whatsoever. All that stuff is a big belief system.

I think it's all a load of bollocks, like Santa Claus.

Whaddya think Pat?

Anth the icon at last.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Fri, Apr 06, 2001 at 17:48:25 (GMT)
From: Pat Conlon
Email: None
To: AJW
Subject: Pat, fancy a discussion? Sure, Anth but
Message:
we'll just end up agreeing with each other.

Like you said: ''It's nothing to do with anything sprititual whatsoever. All that stuff is a big belief system.''

That is my point precisely. Rawat's Knowledge is a perversion of a system of mental-health exercises. It appeals to primitive and superstitious people.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Fri, Apr 06, 2001 at 19:07:56 (GMT)
From: AJW
Email: None
To: Pat Conlon
Subject: It got crowded.
Message:
Hi Pat,

I'd just finished breakfast, you'd just started the thread, I thought we could have a little natter with nobody else around. The next thing there's ten million responses and you're fast asleep in bed, or whatever.

Anyway, you weren't around to have an Irish discussion, so I kicked the cat instead.

Bonne weekend Pat.

Anth the 00

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Fri, Apr 06, 2001 at 19:40:31 (GMT)
From: Pat Conlon
Email: None
To: AJW
Subject: Bonne weekend to you to, dear Anth
Message:
I just wanted to add that I use the word Knowedge when talking with current premies for convenience sake. Also I went back because I enjoyed it but that was then and this is now.

Pat, who's been boning up on Rawat's tricks of trade and can't stand snakes.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Fri, Apr 06, 2001 at 05:21:34 (GMT)
From: mark
Email: None
To: Pat Conlon
Subject: Rev Rawat's ''Knowledge'' is nothing
Message:
Hi Pat long time no speako

Knowledge it never was
so
Premies we never were
so
Ex Premies we cannot be
so
What are we?

I think
just
well intentioned fools
ignorant of an alien culture
whose
rules, values and objectives differ from ours

as your message
so clearly
explains

Tot siens boetie

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Fri, Apr 06, 2001 at 10:02:06 (GMT)
From: AJW
Email: None
To: mark
Subject: Poetic posts.
Message:
mark

sometimes we trash the commas
to make
our messages

like poetry

nearly always a fucking disaster

but yours is different

anthon

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Fri, Apr 06, 2001 at 07:06:42 (GMT)
From: Pat Conlon
Email: None
To: mark
Subject: Baie dankie my seuntjie
Message:
I hope you haven't been spying on me here without piping up and saying something. Just kidding. I've been meaning to email you but hesitated because I think you owe me one. Don't want to be pushy. I hope you and your family are well.

En totsiens ook, boetjie.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Fri, Apr 06, 2001 at 05:15:19 (GMT)
From: Mercedes
Email: None
To: Pat Conlon
Subject: Rev Rawat's ''Knowledge'' is a perversion
Message:
Thanks Pat for your insight. Now I am curious as to what's the correct way? I haven't been able to practice since I walked 1.5 months ago the most I've done is sit and breathe.
And also I'd like to say that some days are really hard for me, I get depressed and angry.
At least I know this too shall pass I feel comfort just reading FV sometimes.
Thank you
Mercedes
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Fri, Apr 06, 2001 at 10:21:49 (GMT)
From: AJW
Email: None
To: Mercedes
Subject: A message from the Lowlands.
Message:
Hi Mercedes,

When I was a premie, it was easy to tell somebody how to stop feeling depressed. Take the magic pill of Captains Rawats Knowledge and everything will be OK.

Now it's not so simple. I don't have anything to say anymore. I feel a bit like someone who is in a crowd, out of which someone has been dragged to be shot. I'd like to feel sorry for that person, but in truth, I'm just glad it wasn't me.

It's two and a half years since I quit. I was a total gung-ho premie. I believed it all. Perfection was a big part of my life, both in the form of the Perfect Master and the experience within. Now it's gone. It all turned out to be made of cardboard. I have to rejoin the human race again, and learn how to be honest with myself.

There is one, massive advantage in this process, which by far outweighs all the introverted perfection of the cult. That is, I'm becoming my real self again. I don't have to force all my ideas about life through the keyhole of the Captains private jet.

So whatever feelings I have nowadays, at least they belong to me. I'm not pissing away my life in cloud-cuckoo land, even if the weather gets bad out here sometimes.

Hang on in there Merc'.

Anth making it up as I go along.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Fri, Apr 06, 2001 at 07:52:52 (GMT)
From: Tonette
Email: None
To: Mercedes
Subject: Yes, it can be very hard
Message:
Hell, I exited years ago and I still get angry about the whole shebang! Sometimes I feel spiritually robbed. Jaded. Morose. Thank you M, you fat fuck! How dare you take people's hearts and mangle them! Look at all you have done.
But life goes on. We evolve whether we want to or not. This world has alot of beauty to offer, lots of love. You are far better off than M or the hopeless deluded folks who 'stay in touch.' Talk about depressing. Now that's depressing! How would you like to still be 'one of them?'
Or better yet someone who has exited and who doesn't have some comfort here in the form of the forum? It can be worse.
Hang in there, and if the depression gets too long or prolonged or out of hand go see a doctor. Seriously.

Kindest regards-Tonette

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Fri, Apr 06, 2001 at 07:25:37 (GMT)
From: Connie
Email: None
To: Mercedes
Subject: Rev Rawat's ''Knowledge'' is a perversion
Message:
Hi Mercedes

I know what you mean. I'm going through the same. Sometimes it all seems too much. I keep coming back to FV, reading the good stuff here helps.

Take care.

Hi Pat

Liked your post, as always these type of posts are very helpful.

Take care too.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Fri, Apr 06, 2001 at 16:10:56 (GMT)
From: Katie H
Email: None
To: Connie
Subject: Mercedes and Connie
Message:
Hey to both of you - and to everyone else -
Mercedes, I don't think there is any 'right way' to meditate. This is one of the big problems I have with the knowledge meditation - we were taught that it was the ONLY way. Maharaji made fun of other kinds of meditation - saying things like 'If you meditate on a candle, you'll become a candle' and stuff like that. I didn't want to practice the knowledge meditation after I left M, and I didn't want to practice any other kind of meditation because I had believed some of the things he said. It took me years to do anything similar, and I started with visualization - I guess because it isn't called meditation.

Well, it works better for me than the K meditation ever did. I have an active mind and I am a visual person, and it helps so much to have something to focus on. I just use colors, usually - sometimes light. (I NEVER saw light with the K meditation - not real light anyway.) I have found that it works really well just to visualize it - it doesn't have to appear. Also, looking at a candle seems to work well - and I haven't turned into a candle yet :).

Connie, I am sorry both you and Mercedes are feeling depressed and overwhelmed. I know it can't be easy, but I really believe it is part of the process of losing a belief system. It is sort of like getting a divorce in many ways. Sometimes the depressed feelings seem to go on forever (I know by experience) - but I think it helps to know that other people are going through it and have gone through it and have come out the other side.

Love to both of you,
Katie

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Fri, Apr 06, 2001 at 08:10:53 (GMT)
From: Pat Conlon
Email: None
To: Connie
Subject: Hey, every body gets the blues
Message:
It's natural. That's why I like torch-singers and opera. It's only natural to be depressed. I sometimes feel that there is a big societal pressure to ''don't worry be happy.'' My god is that boring and exhausting. There are ways to cheer up.

For me the best thing is to make myself strong, stoical and not expect happiness and to think optimistically and creatively. And hard work always helps. Thank god I wasn't born rich otherwise I'd sit on my duff feeling sorry for myself in between Oprah and the next box of chocolates.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Fri, Apr 06, 2001 at 07:10:34 (GMT)
From: Pat Conlon
Email: None
To: Mercedes
Subject: Hi Mercedes, let's talk by email about that
Message:
I don't think it's a good idea for me to talk about it here as I am not into teaching. But I'll share it with you privately as friend to friend.
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Fri, Apr 06, 2001 at 06:03:30 (GMT)
From: Babs
Email: ralphie@ralphiescafe.com
To: Mercedes
Subject: Breathing while walking
Message:
A month and a half? Wow. Sitting and breathing is good.
I still get depressed and angry. It takes time.
Hang in there!
Love,
Babs
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Fri, Apr 06, 2001 at 07:21:30 (GMT)
From: Pat Conlon
Email: None
To: Babs
Subject: Breathing while walking
Message:
Taking the dogs for a brisk walk out here along the coast when the wind whips up salt spray and you can breathe the ozone from the breaking surf - now that's breathing.

Am I the only one who thinks that being at peace is partly an outcome of growing older, mellowing. I'm a lot more tolerant and easy-going. As for the anger and depression - I'm learning teaching myself anger control (especially when driving) and the depression ( I call it the blues) is often accompanied by or followed by some deeper understanding.

My god being happy all the time like these cultists is boring and exhausting when you have to keep up the act. I think that's why Rev Rawat turned to booze. He might be a lot happier now if he had sometimes just come right out and said; ''I'm angry and depressed.''

But I guess messiahs and other dream-peddlers have got to keep up the act. The show must go on.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Fri, Apr 06, 2001 at 17:09:10 (GMT)
From: Babs
Email: ralphie@ralphiescafe.com
To: Pat Conlon
Subject: Yes, your dogs are divine, but...
Message:
I meant 'walking' in the sense of 'just walk away,' walking away from maharajism. I was impressed that Mercedes could 'sit and breathe' on a regular basis, this soon after 'walking.' But if you want to breathe while walking your dogs, hey, I don't have a problem with that either. I think people should breathe while they're doing just about anything except swimming under water.

Love you!
Babs, who breathes even in her sleep

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Fri, Apr 06, 2001 at 14:42:23 (GMT)
From: Mercedes
Email: None
To: Pat.. Tonette.. Babs..
Subject: Breathing while walking
Message:
Connie...Anth
Thank you everyone, it is good to know it is okay to be depressed and that it will not last forever and if it does I'll do something about it.
There is no way around it but through it so I hang in here for the sake of my sanity.
Love you all...
Mercedes
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Fri, Apr 06, 2001 at 04:04:20 (GMT)
From: TD
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: This issue of Maharaji being a really 'busy man'
Message:
Down below in a post by Robert Setton with regards to Abi's father's potential meeting with Maharaji, he notes the following about Maharaji...

One thing I've noticed whenever I've been remotely near to the action though, and it is a significant thing, that is whether we like it or not, he is an unbelievably busy man and busy men are incredibly frustrating to pin down, on any matter at all. I have been flattened many times, humiliated, angered because to me I am the most important being in the universe and he better notice. I have been offended by what I've seen as his 'arrogant aloofness' and then been told what he has to get done in the next half hour...and bowed my head in shame.

I'd like to ask Robert a couple of questions in addition to the comments Joe and JHB made in response to this post.

What other 'busy men' does Robert know and how does he classify this? And what makes him think that all busy men are 'frustrating to pin down'.

I must admit I used to think this while a premie and thought it was totally justifiable him travelling in a Gulfstream IV to get to events all round the world, but that perception has changed dramatically since I left premiedom and resumed proper work in Corporate Land. I have seen how men and women behave who have far bigger and busier schedules than Maharaji would, make more presentations to more people around the world than he does, and who do all this by (heaven forbid) using commercial airlines. Sure there are some people I've come across that are 'frustrating to pin down' but I've learnt that those ones are often the ones who can't time manage and who are trying to cover up their incompetencies by appearing 'too busy' to meet with anyone.

Last year I was sent to the US to work in the Head Office of the company I work for, and to give you an indication of it's size - it has a $15US billion turnover, and over 3600 offices in 56 countries. Anyway my project team sat around the corner from the big kahuna, the CEO - who used to pop by and say g'day everytime he made his way to the kitchen to make HIS own coffee. You can imagine what his travel schedule was like too. Anyway, I found it refreshing that despite his level of responsibility, he was a very approachable and friendly guy who you could directly ask questions (either in person or via email) and always gave you quality time (even plebs like me). Sure he had managers under him looking after the divisions and regions of the business but then SO DOES MAHARAJI.

So using corporate analogies, what would we say Maharaji's level of responsibility is on? Is he on a par with a CEO of a large multinational company? Is he as busy as say Bill Gates or Rupert Murdoch? Or is he more on a par with celebrities like Tom Cruise or statesmen like Nelson Mandela who everyone wants to meet and spend time with (both people I have heard who are very friendly to even nobodies they get introduced to, and do not display the 'arrogant aloofness' that Robert says he felt Maharaji had).

So Robert - is Maharaji as busy as these people?

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Fri, Apr 06, 2001 at 04:30:11 (GMT)
From: TD
Email: None
To: TD
Subject: Actually I should correct the bit I said....
Message:
....about those people who present to more people around the world than Maharaji does. I should have said excluding India, but in places like the US and Europe where the most he gets would be a couple of thousand at an event - then definitely.
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sat, Apr 07, 2001 at 17:24:21 (GMT)
From: Robert Setton
Email: None
To: TD
Subject: Yes, busy as any I'd say
Message:
TD You asked me what busy men do I know? What a question! I know many busy people socially and I work in publishing, the entire building buzzes from dawn to dusk, including two floors of huge offset printing machines. There are too many busy men and women there to mention and, of course, we all get strung out and short tempered occasionally.

Remembering the (comparitively) little I have seen of Maharaji, yes he was most definitely as busy as anyone else I've seen. But he has this ability to switch off and act like he doesn't have a care in the world. I have found that to be rare and I think it can be confusing for people looking on. I was confused by his ability to change so fast. I also believe that being busy in a large secure work environment (in one place) is markedly different than constantly changing location within a very tight schedule. However, as I told Katie, I acknowledge that none of what I've said diminishes the responsibilty to address the outstanding issues mentioned here.

Gates and Murdoch are interesting, merely because of their staggering wealth and power. I've heard Murdoch is extremely charming and Gates rather inept at person to person communication. As far as Tom Cruise or Nelson Mandela are concerned, I would suggest that they also are very much in the business of self promotion, one considerably more weighty and useful than the other! Although Maharaji promotes the role of the master in his talks, I have not seen the slightest desire to ingratiate himself with all and sundry in his personal life. Polite but shy is my call there.
Regards,
Robert

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sat, Apr 07, 2001 at 22:39:40 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Robert Setton
Subject: Naive or stupid? Which one is it, Robert?
Message:
Remembering the (comparitively) little I have seen of Maharaji, yes he was most definitely as busy as anyone else I've seen.

Doing what exactly? What actual tasks have you ever seen Maharaji undertake? Specifics, please.

But he has this ability to switch off and act like he doesn't have a care in the world. I have found that to be rare and I think it can be confusing for people looking on. I was confused by his ability to change so fast.

What the hell are you talking about? I guess to answer you're going to have to first tell us what demanding and difficult tasks it is that he's 'switch[ing] off', then tell us why you think he's done so. And this 'act like he doesn't have a care in the world' comment, are you tacitly admitting he's all show for cult members like yourself? What?

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sat, Apr 07, 2001 at 23:12:23 (GMT)
From: Nigel
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: In a nutshell, Jim.
Message:
You've just summarised some of what I've posted up top. Missed your post whilst typing.

The 'as if' phrase in 'as if he didn't have a care in the world' probably says a lot. Drama, pretense, role-play. The 'as-if' factor, again. Live your lives 'as if' I were omniscient, omnipresent, omnigurgling and life threafter will be nowt but the cat's pyjamas.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index