Forum V: Archive
Compiled: Fri, Apr 20, 2001 at 21:26:27 (GMT)
From: Apr 08, 2001 To: Apr 17, 2001 Page: 3 Of: 5


la-ex -:- Pat C.+JM-has the Sampuranand issue been fully exp -:- Thurs, Apr 12, 2001 at 19:01:42 (GMT)
__ PatC -:- My post re currency smuggling in Africa (Hey, Abi) -:- Fri, Apr 13, 2001 at 01:04:18 (GMT)
__ __ Abi -:- My post re currency smuggling in Africa (Hey, Abi) -:- Fri, Apr 13, 2001 at 02:07:20 (GMT)
__ __ __ PatC -:- Abi, I was thinking more in terms of a friendly -:- Fri, Apr 13, 2001 at 02:42:01 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Abi -:- Abi, I was thinking more in terms of a friendly -:- Fri, Apr 13, 2001 at 03:50:14 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ PatC -:- Abi, I have to say no -:- Fri, Apr 13, 2001 at 04:43:57 (GMT)
__ Jean-Michel -:- Pat C.+JM-has the Sampuranand issue been fully exp -:- Thurs, Apr 12, 2001 at 20:39:54 (GMT)
__ __ Cynthia -:- This Sounds Like a Case for Amnesty International -:- Thurs, Apr 12, 2001 at 21:28:18 (GMT)

Susan -:- we need everyone's help -:- Thurs, Apr 12, 2001 at 17:25:28 (GMT)
__ Jean-Paul -:- Africa, dangerous place for Jagdeo -:- Thurs, Apr 12, 2001 at 21:41:56 (GMT)
__ Richard -:- Susan, I emailed you some info /nt -:- Thurs, Apr 12, 2001 at 19:30:39 (GMT)
__ __ Susan -:- got it thank you -:- Thurs, Apr 12, 2001 at 19:45:59 (GMT)
__ Abi -:- we need everyone's help -:- Thurs, Apr 12, 2001 at 17:41:45 (GMT)
__ __ Susan -:- an example letter to media -:- Thurs, Apr 12, 2001 at 19:38:51 (GMT)
__ __ Cynthia -:- we need everyone's help -:- Thurs, Apr 12, 2001 at 18:33:57 (GMT)
__ __ __ Abi -:- we need everyone's help -:- Thurs, Apr 12, 2001 at 18:39:33 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Cynthia -:- No, I didn't mean for you to talk to him... -:- Thurs, Apr 12, 2001 at 20:39:21 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Joe -:- African EV Contacts -:- Thurs, Apr 12, 2001 at 19:21:10 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Zelda -:- African EV Contacts- alert police in each city. -:- Fri, Apr 13, 2001 at 11:52:25 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Jean-Michel -:- Could be Ivory Coast or elsewhere -:- Thurs, Apr 12, 2001 at 20:42:29 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ bill--surely south africa -:- is a place he would stay. lots of indians.,...nt -:- Fri, Apr 13, 2001 at 04:44:32 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ jondon -:- The Isle of Mauritius...nt -:- Sat, Apr 14, 2001 at 13:30:11 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ la-ex -:- this might get some action..... -:- Thurs, Apr 12, 2001 at 19:08:35 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Zelda -:- Oprah? 'Cult victims speak out'? NT -:- Fri, Apr 13, 2001 at 08:00:11 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Bazza -:- this might get some action..... -:- Thurs, Apr 12, 2001 at 20:49:23 (GMT)

Abi -:- JAGDEO IS IN AFRICA -:- Thurs, Apr 12, 2001 at 12:43:33 (GMT)
__ PatC -:- Abi, I should have answered you here but -:- Fri, Apr 13, 2001 at 01:06:23 (GMT)
__ Joe -:- Flown around by Elan Vital? -:- Thurs, Apr 12, 2001 at 16:50:35 (GMT)
__ __ Abi -:- YES -:- Thurs, Apr 12, 2001 at 16:54:29 (GMT)
__ __ __ Cynthia -:- Abi, have you considered contacting Marolyn Rawat? -:- Thurs, Apr 12, 2001 at 17:08:18 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Know it All -:- I have Marolyn's phone number if you want it (nt) -:- Thurs, Apr 12, 2001 at 23:11:16 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Forum Admin -:- Posting under someone else's id -:- Fri, Apr 13, 2001 at 20:47:13 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Kelly -:- I have Marolyn's phone number if you want it (nt) -:- Thurs, Apr 12, 2001 at 23:16:36 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Know it All -:- I have Marolyn's phone number if you want it (nt) -:- Thurs, Apr 12, 2001 at 23:25:22 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Sir Dave -:- Why do you trust this shit? -:- Thurs, Apr 12, 2001 at 17:23:57 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Nigel -:- I wouldn't call it naivety Dave.. -:- Thurs, Apr 12, 2001 at 18:44:43 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Jerry -:- I wouldn't call it naivety Dave.. -:- Fri, Apr 13, 2001 at 22:00:29 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Jerry -:- And as for Jagdeo... -:- Fri, Apr 13, 2001 at 23:36:27 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Cynthia -:- Agree Nigel... -:- Thurs, Apr 12, 2001 at 20:56:51 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ la-ex -:- I agree Nige..maybe 2 courses of action... -:- Thurs, Apr 12, 2001 at 18:51:15 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Nigel -:- 'the best way to write to M..'? -:- Thurs, Apr 12, 2001 at 20:28:42 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Joe -:- Direct Action -:- Thurs, Apr 12, 2001 at 23:51:32 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ bill -:- Direct Action--sign me up....nt -:- Fri, Apr 13, 2001 at 04:57:55 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Abi -:- well said -:- Thurs, Apr 12, 2001 at 18:50:48 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Susan -:- well said Nigel -:- Thurs, Apr 12, 2001 at 18:48:04 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Abi -:- yes -:- Thurs, Apr 12, 2001 at 17:20:11 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Cynthia -:- yes/no...I agree with Sir Dave.... -:- Thurs, Apr 12, 2001 at 18:18:38 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Joe -:- Anyone know how to contact Judy Osborne? (nt) -:- Thurs, Apr 12, 2001 at 17:11:21 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Abi -:- Anyone know how to contact Judy Osborne? (nt) -:- Thurs, Apr 12, 2001 at 17:24:24 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Joe -:- There's a 'Judith Osborne' in Marin (CA) -:- Thurs, Apr 12, 2001 at 17:20:48 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ 411 -:- It's not her - careful folks. -:- Fri, Apr 13, 2001 at 02:48:53 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ JHB -:- Phone her and ask her. (nt) -:- Thurs, Apr 12, 2001 at 23:43:40 (GMT)
__ __ __ Joe -:- It makes me wonder..... -:- Thurs, Apr 12, 2001 at 17:06:57 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ la-ex -:- It makes me wonder.....remember this? -:- Thurs, Apr 12, 2001 at 18:47:10 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Joe -:- No, I don't. -:- Thurs, Apr 12, 2001 at 19:02:01 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Abi -:- It makes me wonder.....remember this? -:- Thurs, Apr 12, 2001 at 18:52:25 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Abi -:- It makes me wonder..... -:- Thurs, Apr 12, 2001 at 17:17:35 (GMT)
__ Karen Ringrose (Kelly) -:- My e-mails to Deepak Bhandari -:- Thurs, Apr 12, 2001 at 16:08:45 (GMT)
__ __ Joe -:- Karen, can you explain? -:- Thurs, Apr 12, 2001 at 19:34:05 (GMT)
__ __ __ Kelly -:- Karen, can you explain? I'll try -:- Thurs, Apr 12, 2001 at 21:07:10 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Joe -:- Thanks Kelly. That helps tell the whole story. -:- Thurs, Apr 12, 2001 at 21:54:20 (GMT)
__ __ __ Marianne -:- Not forum fodder -:- Thurs, Apr 12, 2001 at 20:27:46 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ janet -:- then form an email ring and keep us all in it -:- Fri, Apr 13, 2001 at 04:05:21 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Bin Liner -:- I agree (nt ) -:- Thurs, Apr 12, 2001 at 22:26:55 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Joe -:- Cool it, Marianne.... I disagree -:- Thurs, Apr 12, 2001 at 20:54:26 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Bin Liner -:- Cool it Joe .. we'll never get any story if .. -:- Thurs, Apr 12, 2001 at 22:31:05 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Kelly -:- Cool it Joe .. we'll never get any story if .. -:- Thurs, Apr 12, 2001 at 23:10:30 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ bill -:- you could email him again...........nt -:- Fri, Apr 13, 2001 at 05:01:11 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Katie H -:- Kelly, I agree - and thanks -:- Fri, Apr 13, 2001 at 00:55:34 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Joe -:- Frightening the pigeons -- absolute nonsense -:- Thurs, Apr 12, 2001 at 23:05:58 (GMT)
__ __ Jim -:- Bad letter, Kelly -:- Thurs, Apr 12, 2001 at 19:14:07 (GMT)
__ __ __ Kelly -:- Hey Jim man, I know bad means good! -:- Thurs, Apr 12, 2001 at 21:28:18 (GMT)
__ __ __ Nige -:- God - wasn't it awful...? -:- Thurs, Apr 12, 2001 at 21:02:01 (GMT)
__ __ Cynthia -:- Can this be placed into 'Jagdeo section?' -:- Thurs, Apr 12, 2001 at 18:38:24 (GMT)
__ __ __ Sir Librarian -:- Can this be placed into 'Jagdeo section?' -:- Fri, Apr 13, 2001 at 09:37:49 (GMT)
__ __ Susan -:- thank you Karen also ****best of****** -:- Thurs, Apr 12, 2001 at 18:04:51 (GMT)
__ __ __ Jean-Michel -:- It will be in the Jagdeo issue page -:- Thurs, Apr 12, 2001 at 20:43:46 (GMT)
__ __ __ Abi -:- thank you Karen also ****best of****** -:- Thurs, Apr 12, 2001 at 18:06:49 (GMT)
__ __ bill -:- wow Kelly....thank you for your great integrity.nt -:- Thurs, Apr 12, 2001 at 17:39:04 (GMT)
__ __ Joe -:- Randy Prouty -:- Thurs, Apr 12, 2001 at 16:39:20 (GMT)
__ __ __ Joe -:- And they just can't explain Judy Osborne! -:- Thurs, Apr 12, 2001 at 16:44:12 (GMT)
__ __ Joe -:- Admiral Job, Kelly, and very powerful -:- Thurs, Apr 12, 2001 at 16:36:00 (GMT)
__ __ Abi -:- another betrayal, more lies -:- Thurs, Apr 12, 2001 at 16:26:31 (GMT)
__ Jean-Michel -:- Then somebody should get in touch with EV -:- Thurs, Apr 12, 2001 at 12:54:40 (GMT)
__ __ bill -:- the hell with ev, contact that countries police.nt -:- Thurs, Apr 12, 2001 at 13:04:33 (GMT)
__ __ __ Abi -:- two steps -:- Thurs, Apr 12, 2001 at 14:47:33 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ janet -:- interpol, too--he changes countries. he's global -:- Fri, Apr 13, 2001 at 04:33:10 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ interpol link -:- here -:- Fri, Apr 13, 2001 at 04:56:10 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ bill -:- thanks Catweasel....nt -:- Fri, Apr 13, 2001 at 05:06:58 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ JHB -:- Why did you say Catweasel? -:- Fri, Apr 13, 2001 at 22:49:53 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ bill -:- Hi JHB.............nt -:- Sat, Apr 14, 2001 at 19:54:14 (GMT)

Abi -:- OPEN LETTER TO MAHARAJI -:- Thurs, Apr 12, 2001 at 10:19:00 (GMT)
__ Roger eDrek -:- Abi, your letter will be read! -:- Sat, Apr 14, 2001 at 04:25:50 (GMT)
__ Jim Sander -:- Very, very courageous, Abi. Thank you. nt -:- Fri, Apr 13, 2001 at 00:38:03 (GMT)
__ Tony(Aussi Ji) -:- What a beautiful letter Abi. -:- Thurs, Apr 12, 2001 at 23:04:20 (GMT)
__ Susan -:- he is a coward -:- Thurs, Apr 12, 2001 at 17:58:30 (GMT)
__ Jim -:- Great letter, Abi. Just great -:- Thurs, Apr 12, 2001 at 15:39:16 (GMT)
__ bill -:- rawat aint no maharaji...nt -:- Thurs, Apr 12, 2001 at 13:07:13 (GMT)
__ Katie -:- Abi, I'm sorry -:- Thurs, Apr 12, 2001 at 12:22:10 (GMT)
__ __ Abi -:- Abi, I'm sorry -:- Thurs, Apr 12, 2001 at 12:45:12 (GMT)
__ __ __ Katie H -:- I understand, Abi -:- Fri, Apr 13, 2001 at 00:21:40 (GMT)
__ __ __ bill--is is too late for -:- the magazine article to include this?....nt -:- Thurs, Apr 12, 2001 at 13:15:11 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ bill -:- Abi -:- Thurs, Apr 12, 2001 at 13:20:56 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Abi -:- Abi -:- Thurs, Apr 12, 2001 at 13:50:25 (GMT)
__ Abi -:- OPEN LETTER TO CHARANAND,RANDY AND JUDY -:- Thurs, Apr 12, 2001 at 10:56:05 (GMT)
__ __ Cynthia -:- SHAME ON CAPTAIN RAWAT AND ELAN VITAL.... -:- Thurs, Apr 12, 2001 at 14:23:31 (GMT)
__ __ __ Abi -:- Organised peadophilia? -:- Thurs, Apr 12, 2001 at 16:16:58 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Cynthia -:- Organised peadophilia? Looks Like it is so, Abi... -:- Thurs, Apr 12, 2001 at 18:09:18 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Abi -:- Organised peadophilia? Looks Like it is so, Abi... -:- Thurs, Apr 12, 2001 at 18:32:01 (GMT)
__ __ toby -:- OPEN LETTER TO CHARANAND,RANDY AND JUDY -:- Thurs, Apr 12, 2001 at 12:19:28 (GMT)
__ __ __ Abi -:- OPEN LETTER TO CHARANAND,RANDY AND JUDY -:- Thurs, Apr 12, 2001 at 16:46:58 (GMT)
__ __ __ Way -:- Randy Prouty -:- Thurs, Apr 12, 2001 at 14:09:33 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Nigel -:- God - what a boring webpage! (ot) -:- Fri, Apr 13, 2001 at 09:11:01 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ bill -:- His Email just got more exciting.........nt -:- Fri, Apr 13, 2001 at 16:19:23 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Abi -:- Randy Prouty -:- Thurs, Apr 12, 2001 at 14:20:49 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Mercedes -:- Dear... -:- Thurs, Apr 12, 2001 at 14:30:38 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Abi -:- yes, cowards all -:- Thurs, Apr 12, 2001 at 14:35:00 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ red butler -:- yes, cowards all -:- Thurs, Apr 12, 2001 at 21:12:44 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ E. Windsor -:- and then.. -:- Fri, Apr 13, 2001 at 01:50:25 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ red butler -:- and then.. -:- Fri, Apr 13, 2001 at 03:27:59 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ E. Winsdor -:- and then.. -:- Fri, Apr 13, 2001 at 04:47:10 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ E, Windsor -:- and then.. -:- Fri, Apr 13, 2001 at 14:47:52 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Susan -:- Red Butler you are JUST great but one change -:- Fri, Apr 13, 2001 at 00:46:09 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Bin Liner -:- Apologies for slagging you off ages ago(nt) -:- Thurs, Apr 12, 2001 at 22:45:33 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Jethro -:- How do they rationalise it? -:- Thurs, Apr 12, 2001 at 16:53:56 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Abi -:- How do they rationalise it? -:- Thurs, Apr 12, 2001 at 17:00:58 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Selene -:- How do they rationalise it? -:- Thurs, Apr 12, 2001 at 22:42:48 (GMT)

Jerry -:- Radhasoami or Dharamdasis? -:- Thurs, Apr 12, 2001 at 03:43:41 (GMT)
__ Pat Conlon -:- Thanks Jerry, terrific sleuthing on your part. -:- Thurs, Apr 12, 2001 at 05:28:41 (GMT)
__ __ Jean-Michel -:- Another important fact IMO -:- Thurs, Apr 12, 2001 at 07:54:24 (GMT)
__ __ __ Jerry -:- Wait a second, JM -:- Thurs, Apr 12, 2001 at 17:32:26 (GMT)
__ __ __ AJW -:- Another important fact IMO -:- Thurs, Apr 12, 2001 at 09:53:50 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Jean-Michel -:- Your books are in a bad shape -:- Thurs, Apr 12, 2001 at 09:56:23 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ AJW -:- Go on, spoil my dream you bastard. -:- Thurs, Apr 12, 2001 at 10:08:37 (GMT)
__ __ __ PatC -:- Thanks for that link, Jean-Michel -:- Thurs, Apr 12, 2001 at 08:15:24 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Jean-Michel -:- What I was trying to say -:- Thurs, Apr 12, 2001 at 09:54:13 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Jean-Michel -:- And don't forget: if Anth's been a teacher -:- Thurs, Apr 12, 2001 at 10:00:06 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Anth's Goons -:- J-M, We know where you live! -:- Fri, Apr 13, 2001 at 21:20:48 (GMT)
__ __ PatC -:- PS: from the EPO archives -:- Thurs, Apr 12, 2001 at 07:53:50 (GMT)
__ __ __ janet -:- PAT CAN U ANSWER THIS FOR ME?Cv v v v SEE B LO -:- Thurs, Apr 12, 2001 at 10:19:23 (GMT)
__ __ __ janet -:- thank you so much for this. synchronicity.... -:- Thurs, Apr 12, 2001 at 10:03:03 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ janet -:- maybe the ones to teach are his kids! tell them! -:- Thurs, Apr 12, 2001 at 10:16:26 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ PatC -:- To J-M and Janet -:- Thurs, Apr 12, 2001 at 17:50:15 (GMT)
__ __ __ PatC -:- PPS: ''Rewriting of history started with Hans'' -:- Thurs, Apr 12, 2001 at 08:02:13 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ JHB -:- Have you read Happy's Journey? -:- Fri, Apr 13, 2001 at 21:30:00 (GMT)

Peter -:- Last message -:- Wed, Apr 11, 2001 at 22:08:02 (GMT)
__ Cynthia -:- Peter, One More Thing... -:- Thurs, Apr 12, 2001 at 21:53:55 (GMT)
__ Abi -:- please don't go -:- Thurs, Apr 12, 2001 at 18:14:39 (GMT)
__ cq -:- You like pitying people AND playing victim, Peter? -:- Thurs, Apr 12, 2001 at 18:08:35 (GMT)
__ Katie H. -:- to Peter -:- Thurs, Apr 12, 2001 at 11:58:41 (GMT)
__ salam -:- Last message -:- Thurs, Apr 12, 2001 at 06:55:08 (GMT)
__ janet -:- peter, wait. please! let us make it up 2 u. -:- Thurs, Apr 12, 2001 at 03:46:35 (GMT)
__ __ JHB -:- Can I challenge this statement? -:- Thurs, Apr 12, 2001 at 06:12:41 (GMT)
__ __ __ Katie H -:- John, maybe I'm naive... -:- Thurs, Apr 12, 2001 at 12:09:03 (GMT)
__ __ __ AJW -:- Spies at Latvian Night. -:- Thurs, Apr 12, 2001 at 10:04:32 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Berni -:- Spies at Latvian Night LOL - -:- Thurs, Apr 12, 2001 at 21:14:10 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ JHB -:- Spies at Latvian Night LOL - -:- Thurs, Apr 12, 2001 at 22:50:09 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Berni -:- Spies at Latvian Night LOL - -:- Fri, Apr 13, 2001 at 11:43:06 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Fanny Adam -:- Bet you're the life and seoul of the party! nt -:- Sat, Apr 14, 2001 at 05:15:28 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ JHB -:- Is Berni your real name? -:- Fri, Apr 13, 2001 at 20:14:06 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Berni -:- Is Berni your real name? -:- Sat, Apr 14, 2001 at 11:18:49 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ JHB -:- Look Anth... -:- Thurs, Apr 12, 2001 at 12:24:05 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ salam -:- I figured that much -:- Thurs, Apr 12, 2001 at 10:37:52 (GMT)
__ Gregg -:- the Forum -:- Thurs, Apr 12, 2001 at 02:21:11 (GMT)
__ Cynthia -:- Never Say Never, Peter.... -:- Thurs, Apr 12, 2001 at 01:30:50 (GMT)
__ Jim -:- Could we talk a bit before you go, please? -:- Thurs, Apr 12, 2001 at 01:18:04 (GMT)
__ __ Deputy Dog -:- Yea Peter, stick around for some more abuse (nt) -:- Thurs, Apr 12, 2001 at 01:59:00 (GMT)
__ __ __ Katie H. -:- Sheesh, Dog! -:- Thurs, Apr 12, 2001 at 12:00:23 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Jim -:- Why do you always do that, Katie? -:- Thurs, Apr 12, 2001 at 15:53:04 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Katie H -:- Sheesh, Jim! -:- Fri, Apr 13, 2001 at 00:19:34 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Jim -:- Sorry, maybe it's my imagination -- anyone? -:- Fri, Apr 13, 2001 at 02:30:37 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Deputy Dog -:- Sorry, maybe it's my imagination -- anyone? -:- Fri, Apr 13, 2001 at 04:02:55 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Jim -:- With all due respect, Dog, that's not the issue -:- Fri, Apr 13, 2001 at 04:11:44 (GMT)
__ __ __ AJW -:- Come on Dog... -:- Thurs, Apr 12, 2001 at 08:28:59 (GMT)
__ __ __ Jim -:- If it's so bad why do you keep coming back? -:- Thurs, Apr 12, 2001 at 04:06:54 (GMT)
__ __ __ janet -:- BAD DOG! OUTSIDE! NO BISCUIT 4 U! NO! QUIET! -:- Thurs, Apr 12, 2001 at 03:55:15 (GMT)
__ AJW -:- Peter's lightning visit to the Forum. -:- Wed, Apr 11, 2001 at 22:59:35 (GMT)
__ __ Brian Smith -:- Peter's lightning visit to the Forum, Yes Anth -:- Thurs, Apr 12, 2001 at 01:12:05 (GMT)
__ __ __ bill -:- Yer painting with too broad a brush Peter..nt -:- Thurs, Apr 12, 2001 at 13:12:45 (GMT)
__ Sir Dave -:- I missed it all but -:- Wed, Apr 11, 2001 at 22:58:39 (GMT)
__ Moldy Warp -:- Last message - a few points from your post -:- Wed, Apr 11, 2001 at 22:56:18 (GMT)
__ __ Selene -:- the 'getting to know you stage' -:- Thurs, Apr 12, 2001 at 00:18:19 (GMT)
__ __ __ moldy warp -:- the 'getting to know you stage' -:- Thurs, Apr 12, 2001 at 05:19:24 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Nige -:- amen...(nt) -:- Thurs, Apr 12, 2001 at 05:25:57 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ moldy warp -:- ditto amen...(nt) -:- Thurs, Apr 12, 2001 at 05:29:18 (GMT)
__ __ Nige -:- Gawd, wot a wimp.... -:- Wed, Apr 11, 2001 at 23:55:47 (GMT)
__ __ __ Moldy Warp -:- Not myself, I hope! -:- Thurs, Apr 12, 2001 at 00:02:46 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Nige -:- No.. night-night.(nt) -:- Thurs, Apr 12, 2001 at 00:13:39 (GMT)
__ Ulf -:- Last message -:- Wed, Apr 11, 2001 at 22:46:33 (GMT)
__ gerry -:- You're Welcome -:- Wed, Apr 11, 2001 at 22:37:08 (GMT)
__ Kelly -:- Last message, I hope not. -:- Wed, Apr 11, 2001 at 22:25:37 (GMT)
__ __ Disculta Darling -:- Me too nt -:- Thurs, Apr 12, 2001 at 01:49:36 (GMT)


Date: Thurs, Apr 12, 2001 at 19:01:42 (GMT)
From: la-ex
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: Pat C.+JM-has the Sampuranand issue been fully exp
Message:
explained?

I think you guys posted about the Sampuranand issue a few weeks ago.
Something about the Indian ashrams, drugs, prostitution etc....

I definitely DO NOT want to start spreading rumours, but can you summarize what was being talked about in those posts?

Does any of this dovetail with Abi's and others stories?

If you are not comfortable with talking about this stuff at this point, I totally understand, but it has crossed my mind with the recent posts...

Thanks,
la-ex

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Date: Fri, Apr 13, 2001 at 01:04:18 (GMT)
From: PatC
Email: None
To: la-ex
Subject: My post re currency smuggling in Africa (Hey, Abi)
Message:
The president of DLM in South Africa from 74 to the late 80s when he died was Bhoolabai. He took over from the patriarch of the Sony family (one of the wealthiest clans in S Africa) who defected en masse to Satpal in 74. Bhoolabai smuggled money from the wealthy Indian premies in S Africa to Switzerland for Rawat. I left S Africa after similar financial shennanigans involving Hirabai (the second in command in Durban.)

****************************************************************

Abi, I don't know who took over as president after Bhoolabai died. Whoever it is is probably the patriarch of the wealthiest Gujerati family in Lenasia which is a predominantly Indian suburb of Johannesburg. DLM/EV was run like a family/mafia business in S Africa. The men seldom had anything to do with the actual ''spiritual'' side of things but handled the finances while the women attended to religious devotions etc.

Any white premies with titles in EV are merely token frontmen and the real power still lies with the wealthiest Gujerati patriachs. The women are treated like children. I watched many scandals being covered up. Rapes, adultery and child-molestation were quickly hushed-up. The women would shut up and obey completely.

It probably is not very different today because Indian men of my generation or younger were not as interested in religion as they were in business. The premies are mostly uneducated women and they are powerless. They will not speak out.

If Jagdeo is in S Africa it is probably because of the exclusivity of the Indians there. They are a very insular community, very defensive and secretive. You could try phoning the EV office in Lenasia and ask who the EV president is.

Most of the Indian premies that I used to know are in Durban and, since Hirabai died, I have no idea who is the boss there. I doubt if Jagdeo is moving in any circles except the Indians. There are only a handful of premies of other races.

Trying to enlist the help of the current government is probably not an option. Corruption is the norm. Cape Town is now the child prostitution capital of the world. It is run by the Russian mafia with the help of Cubans who defected when they were posted to Angola. It is also now the largest conduit for heroine and contraband guns in the world.

You could also phone the EV office in Durban to ask who is the boss there now. If it is Hans Singh I will write a cover letter to him for you. But he is Hindi and it is probably the Gujerati Patels or Maharajas who are really in charge. You might also want to casually ask if Jagdeo is in South Africa. If you come up with any names that I know I will introduce you.

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Date: Fri, Apr 13, 2001 at 02:07:20 (GMT)
From: Abi
Email: None
To: PatC
Subject: My post re currency smuggling in Africa (Hey, Abi)
Message:
Pat,

thanks. You are a source of important information and you have a good nose and are very intelligent

Everything you say makes sense to me. He was sent to the real Indian heavies no?

My feelings are that any information has to be got undercover. They will block anything else. We are dealing with large scale organised corruption. And I think we only know about the tip of the ice-berg.

Please tell us about the abuses you know about.

Abi

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Date: Fri, Apr 13, 2001 at 02:42:01 (GMT)
From: PatC
Email: None
To: Abi
Subject: Abi, I was thinking more in terms of a friendly
Message:
phone call to the Durban EV contact. Phoning Lenasia will get you through to the honchos. But the premies in Durban are very laidback and the phone number is probably someone's home phone. Just a call like: ''Oh hi I'm Abi and I'm trying to find an old friend, Pat Conlon.''

Brief chat will ensue. If they are new premies they will not know me. Then you ask them innocently who the current head of EV is in South Africa and say that you heard that your favorite mahatma, Jagdeo, was in S Africa. ''Is that true? How nice etc. Is there anyway that I can contact him?''

Now I can kick myself for not keeping up my S African contacts. I wish I could be of more concrete help.

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Date: Fri, Apr 13, 2001 at 03:50:14 (GMT)
From: Abi
Email: None
To: PatC
Subject: Abi, I was thinking more in terms of a friendly
Message:
Can you call please. I'm just too exhausted, I really am.
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Date: Fri, Apr 13, 2001 at 04:43:57 (GMT)
From: PatC
Email: None
To: Abi
Subject: Abi, I have to say no
Message:
There are several reasons for my not doing it. I do not have a real reason to do it and am not good at dissembling or playing-acting being a spy and I don't particularly want to reconnect with premies from there. I'm sorry. Perhaps someone else will volunteer.
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Date: Thurs, Apr 12, 2001 at 20:39:54 (GMT)
From: Jean-Michel
Email: None
To: la-ex
Subject: Pat C.+JM-has the Sampuranand issue been fully exp
Message:
Maybe someone can dig out one of my posts about it from the forum's archive.

Briefly: Sampuranand (and his friend Devanand from Nepal) get to convince young unemployed female premies from villages in Nepal to come to India and be offered jobs. They're 1st convinced to come to the Delhi ashram to 'do service', and then they are convinced to go to Bombay or other places, where they're forced to go work in brothels. This has been reported by 2 mahatmas. It looks like many premies know about it in Delhi, but can't do anything about it because Sampu is the main Rawat's honchos there.

They'd like to report it to Rawat directly but they can't. They truly believe he could do something about it. They're wrong IMO when you look at what he's done for Jagdeo .........

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Date: Thurs, Apr 12, 2001 at 21:28:18 (GMT)
From: Cynthia
Email: None
To: Jean-Michel
Subject: This Sounds Like a Case for Amnesty International
Message:
Hi Jean-Michel,

If what you said is true, or if there are allegations and/or evidence to substantiate an investigation, Amnesty International must be contacted.

Just look at their home page:

Sorry, no html:

http://www.amnesty.org/

Perhaps, this may also apply to Jagdeo, since Elan Vital International seems quite happy to keep him hopping from country to country, and by doing such, are placing CHILDREN AT RISK!

This is very important. It's about children and women being hurt/tortured NOW.

Many thanks for your work,
Love,
Cynthia

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Date: Thurs, Apr 12, 2001 at 17:25:28 (GMT)
From: Susan
Email: sjhklh@earthlink.net
To: Everyone
Subject: we need everyone's help
Message:
Dear all, premies, ex premie, never premies..ie fellow human beings.

Abi, other anonymous victims, and I are trying to brainstorm as to what our next action should be. We are very upset that Jagdeo has not been stopped, and that the cult is actively covering up his location and continuing in their blame the victims strategy.

I ask all who read this who are struggling with decisions as to whether or not to come forward with information to please post it or write us.

To all who read this, we know of more than a few other victims who are unwilling to speak out publicly. For good reason too, EV demonizes those who make the choice to discuss Jagdeo publicly, and for adult who were once the victims of a pedophile, the prospect of leaving themselves open to the underhanded tactics of this cult is terrifying. But believe us, this goes beyond premie vs ex premie. My feeling is the premies I knew were mostly good people. I believe it is a cowardly minority of premies at the top, and Rawat himself, that want to cover this up. I hope so much that anyone who is a premie who is reading says this to themselves. Am I in a cult? If you do not believe you are in a cult than it should be okay to tell the truth about what you know. Right? Would an organization and a leader that really want to spread a gift of hope and peace to the human beings of our world ask you to remain silent? If EV, Maharaji and knowledge represent something that is good, why do they ask their members to do something SO WRONG?

Anyone who knows anything that can help us. Please speak out. Write us, post about it, write EV, but don't let them make you a part of their conspiracy of silence.

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Date: Thurs, Apr 12, 2001 at 21:41:56 (GMT)
From: Jean-Paul
Email: None
To: Susan
Subject: Africa, dangerous place for Jagdeo
Message:
If Jagdeo touches a child in Africa and if it is known and proved, he will be automatically lynched by the local people. The sanction will be immediate.
African people can easily revolt against white people if they judge that there is something unfair and unjust. An african friend told that an instructor has been called colonizer and were told to shut up. They could not buy her story.
I think that african responsible for elan vital will keep their common sense if something is going wrong and they will react.
The best would be to warn them so that they stay attentive to what is going on.
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Date: Thurs, Apr 12, 2001 at 19:30:39 (GMT)
From: Richard
Email: None
To: Susan
Subject: Susan, I emailed you some info /nt
Message:
nt
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Date: Thurs, Apr 12, 2001 at 19:45:59 (GMT)
From: Susan
Email: None
To: Richard
Subject: got it thank you
Message:
This will be of tremendous help.
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Date: Thurs, Apr 12, 2001 at 17:41:45 (GMT)
From: Abi
Email: None
To: Susan
Subject: we need everyone's help
Message:
Well said.

Here are the things we need to know right now.

* More details about Jagdeo in Africa. I have a contact I'm working on who I trust but we need the video that showed him in Africa.
* If anyone knows of anyone in EV in Africa that would help too.
* We have to track him down and inform the police
* We might think about alerting the Dehli police about a possible child abuse ring there.
* We need to know of any premies who were given the special task of watching Jagdeo in the late 70s.
* We need to know who the children were at the Denver Unity School and what happened to them
* We have to find out more about Jagdeo's background
* Does anyone have any contact with Rawats family or origin so that we can ask them about him
* We need the women who were abused to put some iron into their souls and speak out now.
* We need to start cataloguing the various crimes of the Mahatmas

Just some points for starters. We have to unite, put aside our personal squabbles with each other and give this a priority. No more bickering, nose to the grind stone.

I hope that premies, ex-premies and people who just watch understand how important this is.

Abi

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Date: Thurs, Apr 12, 2001 at 19:38:51 (GMT)
From: Susan
Email: None
To: all
Subject: an example letter to media
Message:
Dear Mr. Walsh,

I have been a long time fan of your show. I also lived in Miami at the time Adam was murdered. I looked at his picture every day, and cried with so many around the country when we learned he had been murdered. His life touched so many so deeply.

I am writing regarding a pedophile I am hoping you might consider profiling on your show. The case is very unusual and I am not sure if it is something you will be interested in or not. I hope you will at least hear me out and research it a bit.

I am a former member of the religous cult the 'Divine Light Mission', now called 'Elan Vital', these are the followers of the former Guru Maharaj Ji. The followers were knows as 'premies'.

I was involved at the age of 13 with this cult. I was molested by an official of this cult known as a 'mahatma' at age 15. I found out that he had molested a friend of mine very seriously at the age of 12. I reprted this pedophile to a cult official.

Via a network of ex followers of this Guru on the web, I have since discovered that there are victims of this pedophile around the world. We are trying to put an end to the crimes of this man, which appear to have been committed around the world from 1970's to only a few years ago.

Rather than writing a long letter, I am enclosing a link to the subject on the ex cult member website. I hope you will read it and consider if there is any sort of assistance you can give us in stopping this monster from abusing one more child. The cult is apparently hiding him in Africa at the current time, and is actively hiding its culpability in allowing this man to travel the world on their payroll despite repeated reports of his sexual abuse of children.

I would very much appreciate a response acknowledging that you read my letter, even if you are unable to help us bring this abuser to justice.

Thank you,

Susan Haupt

http://www.ex-premie.org/pages/jagdeo.htm

above is a link to the pedophile matter specifically

http://www.ex-premie.org/

this is a link to the ex cult site generally.

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Date: Thurs, Apr 12, 2001 at 18:33:57 (GMT)
From: Cynthia
Email: None
To: Abi
Subject: we need everyone's help
Message:
Abi and Susan,

Is it viable to contact the police in California in the cit(ies) where Elan Vital is located/registered with information that they are harbouring a pedophile? Have you tried to inform the police in Malibu, or any other towns where m has residences, as well as other international EV headquarters, to at least begin an investigation?

Is there an African EV headquarters and/or residence? Can police be contacted in their jurisdiction to at least inform them of a pedophile being supported, transported, and harboured by this EV/Rawat cult?

What about Amaroo? Think that Jagdeo will be Australia at the ''event?'' Can you contact the police that he may be coming into the country?

At this point I feel quite helpless, so I'm kind of brainstorming here.

I hope I not being a pest by writing so much. I have to go off-line for a while now. And I agree, this is far too serious to be having petty arguments. I, for one, personally take the point.

Love to you both,
Cynthia

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Date: Thurs, Apr 12, 2001 at 18:39:33 (GMT)
From: Abi
Email: None
To: Cynthia
Subject: we need everyone's help
Message:
Dear Cynthia,
thanks for those very pragmatic suggestions. I can't follow through with them right now as I'm approaching burn out.

I will ask someone at Amaroo if Jagdeo is due in town. I'd like to have a chat with him about a few things myself.

abni who needs to eat and sleeps

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Date: Thurs, Apr 12, 2001 at 20:39:21 (GMT)
From: Cynthia
Email: None
To: Abi
Subject: No, I didn't mean for you to talk to him...
Message:
Abi,

I wouldn't recommend at this juncture for you to speak with Jagdeo. If someone can make calls for you (because you are so exhausted) I just have the following suggestions:

Contact the local police in the jurisdiction of the Amaroo town (Ipswich?), the African Consulate in Australia, the Australian Immigration/Customs officials (at airport) might be alerted that he is possibly coming into the country (to go to this event) and give his background...that he's been harboured by this Elan Vital cult and is a possible/probable risk to children if he's allowed into the country. That it's possible he might arrive in a Gulfstream (which I would doubt, but more info is better than less). They park the fancy jets in a ''special'' place in airports.

Maybe it's far fetched, but if you have someone who can make calls for you, perhaps at least some attention will be placed on Amaroo event itself by local officials.

I know you need to take care of yourself, Abi and Susan, I know this is exhausting, so get some rest and know you have my and many others' support here. But...you've gotta find some more strength because you are pursuing this...think of how wonderful it would be to nap this monster, get him out of circulation so he can't hurt any other children ever again.

Love,
Cynthia

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Date: Thurs, Apr 12, 2001 at 19:21:10 (GMT)
From: Joe
Email: None
To: Abi
Subject: African EV Contacts
Message:
According to the Elan Vital website, the only Elan Vital contacts in Africa are in South Africa. The numbers are as follows:

South Africa
Cape Town (0)21 794 0982
Durban (0)88 121 3033
Johannesburg (0)88 121 8363
Lenasia (0)88 120

How about just calling them up and see if Jagdeo is there, has been there, or is coming there? They probably have recordings which might give an event where Jagdeo might appear.

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Date: Fri, Apr 13, 2001 at 11:52:25 (GMT)
From: Zelda
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: African EV Contacts- alert police in each city.
Message:
theyll find him.. Interpol to track him and do same in each locale.
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Date: Thurs, Apr 12, 2001 at 20:42:29 (GMT)
From: Jean-Michel
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: Could be Ivory Coast or elsewhere
Message:
there are quite some premies there too ...... I have a few phone numbers there I guess .....
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Date: Fri, Apr 13, 2001 at 04:44:32 (GMT)
From: bill--surely south africa
Email: None
To: Jean-Michel
Subject: is a place he would stay. lots of indians.,...nt
Message:
sdh
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Date: Sat, Apr 14, 2001 at 13:30:11 (GMT)
From: jondon
Email: None
To: bill--surely south africa
Subject: The Isle of Mauritius...nt
Message:
nt
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Date: Thurs, Apr 12, 2001 at 19:08:35 (GMT)
From: la-ex
Email: None
To: Abi,Susan
Subject: this might get some action.....
Message:
do you know how easy it is to get on local cable access TV?

If someone wants to do any type of TV show for any reason, the local cable access station has to, by law, enable you to do so.
They will train you and help you produce your show, and show it on the local cable access channel.
The more requests, the more showings it will get.

A half hour talk show could be produced very easily and quickly for no money, and shown on local Malibu stations, and any other station in the country for that matter...

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Date: Fri, Apr 13, 2001 at 08:00:11 (GMT)
From: Zelda
Email: None
To: Thread
Subject: Oprah? 'Cult victims speak out'? NT
Message:
NT
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Date: Thurs, Apr 12, 2001 at 20:49:23 (GMT)
From: Bazza
Email: bshaw8@bellsouth.net
To: la-ex
Subject: this might get some action.....
Message:
I can produce & shoot in Ft Lauderdale/Miami, I'm in the biz and I have connections in local TV. I also have connections at Knight Ridder, the USA's largest media publisher. Let's do this.

bazza
(Barry Shaw)

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Date: Thurs, Apr 12, 2001 at 12:43:33 (GMT)
From: Abi
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: JAGDEO IS IN AFRICA
Message:
According to a very reliable source the peadophile is now being flown around Africa spreading Knowlwedge to the worlds most uneducated, most vulnerable and most poor.

We were told that he left the Delhi ashram after he was questioned by Deepak. We were told that he had gone back to his family village. They lied. Elan Vital just gave him a new assignment. He is now being cared for by some people who know my source. He is being waited on hand and foot, treated like a holy man, has access to children. It is disgusting.

SHAME ON YOU DEEPAK. You too have sacrified your humanity.

But the person who knows this also saw Jagdeo in Africa on a Connect video recently. They don't even bother to cover up their lies. Will people please find a copy of this video and send the forum all the details.

This is disgusting.

Abi

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Date: Fri, Apr 13, 2001 at 01:06:23 (GMT)
From: PatC
Email: None
To: Abi
Subject: Abi, I should have answered you here but
Message:
I answered you in a post above trying to cover two topics at once. See la-ex's new thread re Sampuranand above.
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Date: Thurs, Apr 12, 2001 at 16:50:35 (GMT)
From: Joe
Email: None
To: Abi
Subject: Flown around by Elan Vital?
Message:
Did your source tell you that ELAN VITAL is flying Jagdeo around Africa to 'spread knowledge' and that ELAN VITAL gave him the African assignment? Really?

We all know from Elan Vital's behavior and Maharaji's silence that neither gives a shit about Jagdeo's victims, only protecting Maharaji, but the downright galling incompetence of actually associating Elan Vital with Jagdeo, given all the publicity about his sexual molestations of children while an employee of Elan Vital, is just mind blowing.

Is he really on an official Elan Vital tour?

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Date: Thurs, Apr 12, 2001 at 16:54:29 (GMT)
From: Abi
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: YES
Message:
I can hardly comprehend it myself. It makes me suspect several very dark things.
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Date: Thurs, Apr 12, 2001 at 17:08:18 (GMT)
From: Cynthia
Email: None
To: Abi
Subject: Abi, have you considered contacting Marolyn Rawat?
Message:
Abi,

Okay, I've now gotten over the shock that EV is still employing Jagdeo, but something must be done. I am sitting here feeling helpless, outraged, and wanting to do something.

Is it true that Judy Osborne was/is a midwife, and if so, did she deliver any of Marolyn's babies?

Maybe it's time to make a plea to the wife of Rawat and mother of his children, Marolyn Rawat.

I wouldn't presume to write an open letter here to her, but I wonder if there might be a way to actually get a real letter to her.

I don't know Marolyn, can't predict what her reaction would be, but she may be an avenue to try.

A suggestion only. I wonder if Marolyn knew/or has known about this and what she would think about this. I don't know, Abi...is it worth a try?

Love,
Cynthia

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Date: Thurs, Apr 12, 2001 at 23:11:16 (GMT)
From: Know it All
Email: None
To: Cynthia
Subject: I have Marolyn's phone number if you want it (nt)
Message:
Let me know if you want it.

Best regards,

Know it All

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Date: Fri, Apr 13, 2001 at 20:47:13 (GMT)
From: Forum Admin
Email: None
To: Know it All
Subject: Posting under someone else's id
Message:
I have good reason to believe you're not the person who normally posts as Know It All. Please respect the rule about not using someone else's id.

Thank you,

Forum Admin

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Date: Thurs, Apr 12, 2001 at 23:16:36 (GMT)
From: Kelly
Email: karen@ringrose.org.uk
To: Know it All
Subject: I have Marolyn's phone number if you want it (nt)
Message:
I'm sure Cynthia wants it and so do I. Thanks, I would be very grateful if you would send it to me.
Kelly
Karen Ringrose
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Date: Thurs, Apr 12, 2001 at 23:25:22 (GMT)
From: Know it All
Email: None
To: Kelly
Subject: I have Marolyn's phone number if you want it (nt)
Message:
Hi Kelly,

Maybe I should email it to you as they may decide to change the number.

I called it once and it said for Mr. Rawatt press 1 and for Mrs Rawat press two and for Mr Rawat's sectretary press 3. I pressed 3 and got to talk to the secretary.

Regards,

Know it All

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Date: Thurs, Apr 12, 2001 at 17:23:57 (GMT)
From: Sir Dave
Email: sirdavid12@hotmail.com
To: Cynthia
Subject: Why do you trust this shit?
Message:
The whole Rawat gang are a bunch of criminals. They won't listen to your pleas, they'll just laugh. They're just a bunch of deceivers, liars and swindlers. All of them and the higher up the echelon they are, the worse they are.

Apply the rules of the real world to this bunch of low-lifes and you'll see them for what they are. They pretended the Lord had come to get money from sincere lovers of God. They see the premies as fools whose only use is to be milked for every last penny.

It's pitiful to see the naivity here. How people think they can appeal to 'Maharaji's better side'.

The only language they'll understand is brute force and strength. Nothing less.

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Date: Thurs, Apr 12, 2001 at 18:44:43 (GMT)
From: Nigel
Email: None
To: Sir Dave
Subject: I wouldn't call it naivety Dave..
Message:
It's pitiful to see the naivity here. How people think they can appeal to 'Maharaji's better side'.

Agree with basic point, but by such high-profile appeals to 'Maharaji's better side' it will swiftly become apparent that he doesn't possess one. I bet there are more than a few premies watching this (unfortunately horrible, sick) saga with bug eyes, and who will, I am sure, quit in their thousands before the year is out when the Hamster fails to deal with it properly - or at all...

The cult will die in the West in the very near future - I can't see it doing otherwise. The guy's such a transparent joke: ammoral, vain, uncaring and narcissistic.

I am mostly concerned that Jagdeo be taken 'out of action' (and I shudder to think...) ASA-bloody-P.

The fat one can wait - protect the kids first, and if that means bombarding EV or M with unsolicited mail until someone amongst them is forced to choose humanity over devotion, then so be it.

M's balls on a plate can wait until later.

Abi: more power to your elbow...

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Date: Fri, Apr 13, 2001 at 22:00:29 (GMT)
From: Jerry
Email: None
To: Nigel
Subject: I wouldn't call it naivety Dave..
Message:
The cult will die in the West in the very near future -I can't see it doing otherwise.

Actually, Nigel, I can see it 'evolving' into something else. I've been doing a fair amount of reading in Indian philosophy, lately, and it's amazing how one belief has built upon another, by rebels here and there, from the Shramanical Hindus who rebelled against the Vedic Priests, to Buddha who rebelled against the Shramanical Hindus, to Guru Nanak who taught that only through devotion to an enlightened master can one become enlightened, himself (yes, he was the first, back in the 1400s), to the current brand of 'enlightenment' being practiced in the West by former devotees of India's gurus who are seeking it on their own, much like the ancient ascetics who went off into the woods to find their own personal Atman, or even the hermitical Taoists, who rebelled against the established Confucians in China. Many of our very own ex-premies would fit into this type of category.

But the cult, as it is established in the West, now, however watered down, is doomed. I agree with you on that. The Western mind is just to trained for independence to allow another control it for any great length of time. But like I said, I just think it's going to evolve into something else, and it's probably people like ex-premies who are still into spirituality, who are going to be the forbears of whatever that is.

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Date: Fri, Apr 13, 2001 at 23:36:27 (GMT)
From: Jerry
Email: None
To: Jerry
Subject: And as for Jagdeo...
Message:
I am mostly concerned that Jagdeo be taken 'out of action' (and I shudder to think...) ASA-bloody-P.... M's balls on a plate can wait until later.

I'm glad you have that perspective, Nigel. I wonder sometimes if people really care about it in this way, or if they're just using it to advance the cause against Maharaji. I mean, if it does that, all fine and good, but the real issue, at this time, should be about putting a leash on Jagdeo.

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Date: Thurs, Apr 12, 2001 at 20:56:51 (GMT)
From: Cynthia
Email: None
To: Nigel
Subject: Agree Nigel...
Message:
For me, the most important thing is today, the children he is in contact with and most definitely at risk.

I'm doing some brainstorming and making some contacts which will take a couple of days. There's got to be a way to stop him now!

I agree with Marianne, too, background details about what folks are actually doing should not be revealed here for EV to look at.

However, they must know this saga IS coming to an end soon.

Elan Vital is harbouring a pedophile! My god. This is a dire situation and it's time for us to protect the children if we can....and not just in the west. Thank you for your post Nigel, you know that I abhor the abuse of a child and I will do everything in my power to investigate solutions to this. I also agree with you about letting the fat one wait. But HE, better give in soon.

This is so important.

Love,
Cynthia

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Date: Thurs, Apr 12, 2001 at 18:51:15 (GMT)
From: la-ex
Email: None
To: Nigel
Subject: I agree Nige..maybe 2 courses of action...
Message:
will ultimately help bring it all out, and down...

I think that the best way to write m is in a very professional, high minded way...of course, he doesn't respond, or BS's you when he does, and this becomes quite apparent to any premie, except for the most 'true believing' of them.

When this fails, I think it makes the more direct, street level tactics more justified, and the two of them work together just fine...

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Date: Thurs, Apr 12, 2001 at 20:28:42 (GMT)
From: Nigel
Email: None
To: la-ex
Subject: 'the best way to write to M..'?
Message:
..I think Abi's just done it up above.

Though I think you're right in that there are probably all sorts of complemetary ways of firing the pressure-cooker. Letters from teachers, writers, lawyers, plumbers and sheep-shearers, humble premies aghast, etc. Room for everyone who feels appalled by this shit, I think.

Marahaji 'came for all of us'. Maybe its time that all of us came for him..?

But, yes, it needn't be an 'either/or' thing. Street protest or letter-writing or both - whatever... Abi and Susan are asking for help, and I think we should ALL help if we can. So much more worthwhile than arguing the toss over whether C******** is a troll or one or other of the Pete's is an EV potplant, I reckon.

I want to do something, but I'm not sure what.

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Date: Thurs, Apr 12, 2001 at 23:51:32 (GMT)
From: Joe
Email: None
To: Nigel
Subject: Direct Action
Message:
I really think that if Maharaji ever does programs again in the West, it's time for a few protesters with signs, and notifications to the local press that they should be asking about the pedophile accusations of a current high priest of the cult. I would be willing to do so myself.
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Date: Fri, Apr 13, 2001 at 04:57:55 (GMT)
From: bill
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: Direct Action--sign me up....nt
Message:
adfh
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Date: Thurs, Apr 12, 2001 at 18:50:48 (GMT)
From: Abi
Email: None
To: Nigel
Subject: well said
Message:
You got it in one.
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Date: Thurs, Apr 12, 2001 at 18:48:04 (GMT)
From: Susan
Email: None
To: Nigel
Subject: well said Nigel
Message:
you are a man of intelligence and integrity. Thank you.
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Date: Thurs, Apr 12, 2001 at 17:20:11 (GMT)
From: Abi
Email: None
To: Cynthia
Subject: yes
Message:
Dear Cynthia,
I have in fact discussed this with someone today. Maybe a mother will understand what an adulterous husband does not.

Abi

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Date: Thurs, Apr 12, 2001 at 18:18:38 (GMT)
From: Cynthia
Email: None
To: Abi
Subject: yes/no...I agree with Sir Dave....
Message:
Abi,

I rethought this while posting to you below. What Sir Dave said is quite right. You don't have anything to lose by trying to contact Marolyn Rawat, but as Dave said, the family's tightly controlled, and especially Marolyn, I would suspect.

Media exposure is the answer. But how?

Love,
Cynthia

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Date: Thurs, Apr 12, 2001 at 17:11:21 (GMT)
From: Joe
Email: None
To: Cynthia
Subject: Anyone know how to contact Judy Osborne? (nt)
Message:
nt
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Date: Thurs, Apr 12, 2001 at 17:24:24 (GMT)
From: Abi
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: Anyone know how to contact Judy Osborne? (nt)
Message:
Or what about posting a letter in the local Malibu paper, one that everyone reads in that gorgeous haven for so many interesting people. We could sign a petition with it.
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Date: Thurs, Apr 12, 2001 at 17:20:48 (GMT)
From: Joe
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: There's a 'Judith Osborne' in Marin (CA)
Message:
Could that be her?
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Date: Fri, Apr 13, 2001 at 02:48:53 (GMT)
From: 411
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: It's not her - careful folks.
Message:
Her contact info is in the right hands. Careful with shooting first and asking questions later.
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Date: Thurs, Apr 12, 2001 at 23:43:40 (GMT)
From: JHB
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: Phone her and ask her. (nt)
Message:
gffg
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Date: Thurs, Apr 12, 2001 at 17:06:57 (GMT)
From: Joe
Email: None
To: Abi
Subject: It makes me wonder.....
Message:
Is it possible that Jagdeo HAS SOMETHING on Maharaji? What else could explain his treatment. Certainly Maharaji has been quite willing to dump people in the past who caused some kind of problem for him (usually making someone else to the dumping), but why this big exception for Jagdeo?

It always seemed to me that Jagdeo considered himself some kind of 'special Mahatma' and that Maharaji had some kind of 'special' respect for him. I always thought it was because Jagdeo was older, or had some kind of exhaulted position in India and that carried over to the West. It always seemed weird. Also, KK said that Maharaji used to hide the fact that he smoked cigarated, drank, and ate meat from Jagdeo -- like he was keeping it from a parent or teacher he didn't want to get a scolding from. Strange.

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Date: Thurs, Apr 12, 2001 at 18:47:10 (GMT)
From: la-ex
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: It makes me wonder.....remember this?
Message:
Joe- I don't know if you remember in 1976-77, when Bob Mischler was exiting DLM, and he told the premies that m had a drinking problem.

The story I heard at that time was that Bob had gone to the residence and m appeared at the front door, flat out drunk, and had an encounter with him.

It was jagdeo who began to tell premies at satsang these stories about krishna appearing before arjuna drunk, as a 'lila', to test his faith.
We were told by jagdeo that bob had failed his test of faith, because m's 'drunkenness' was simply a 'test of faith'.

I guess one hand washes the other...you scratch my back, I'll scratch yours...

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Date: Thurs, Apr 12, 2001 at 19:02:01 (GMT)
From: Joe
Email: None
To: la-ex
Subject: No, I don't.
Message:
Did Mishler just tell premies informally that Maharaji had a drinking problem? I know he talked about it in the radio interview in 1979, but was it at some kind of public event?

I never knew about Maharaji's drinking until one of Maharaji's lawyers told me about his drunkenness after I had already left the cult and been away for a couple of years. I knew there was a Mishler interview, but I didn't know what was in it until I saw the transcript on this website. So I guess I missed both Mishler's statements and Jagdeo's rationalizations.

BTW, did Jagdeo have a glass eye?

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Date: Thurs, Apr 12, 2001 at 18:52:25 (GMT)
From: Abi
Email: None
To: la-ex
Subject: It makes me wonder.....remember this?
Message:
But I think there is more to it than that.
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Date: Thurs, Apr 12, 2001 at 17:17:35 (GMT)
From: Abi
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: It makes me wonder.....
Message:
Susan and I have wondered the same thing. I suspect it has something to do with the early years of DLM, even before it came to the west, maybe about how it came to the west and how it operated there. I wonder what sort of relationship M's mother has with Jagdeo and what Rawat's family of origin think of the man. Would be interesting to ask them about this matter, see if they care to comment. Apparently Jagdeo is an old family friend.

I smell a Ratwat.

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Date: Thurs, Apr 12, 2001 at 16:08:45 (GMT)
From: Karen Ringrose (Kelly)
Email: karen@ringrose.org.uk
To: Abi and everyone
Subject: My e-mails to Deepak Bhandari
Message:
In the light of this shocking information that Jagdeo is at large in Africa. I am posting copies of my recent correspondance with Deepak in India. Abi, this news makes me feel sick.

e-mail dated 18th March 2001
Hi Deepak,

The reason I have contacted you is about something that has been bothering me for some time, and it’s not a pleasant subject, namely, the Jagdeo issue.

I’m sure you are fully familiar with the allegations against him going back many years, but I have only recently read all the information about this on the ex-premie website, including the accounts of his victims, in particular Susan and Abi, and there is no doubt in my mind that they are true. There is also no doubt in my mind that Maharaji has known about it for some time.

I am hoping you can fill in some gaps for me and also perhaps reassure me. You see, I witnessed a couple of incidents while staying in the IOC that now worry me greatly. In particular, I remember the youngest of the housekeeping staff; she only looked about 13 or 14, crying her eyes out because she didn’t want to go to Mahatma ji’s room to perform some ‘service’ for him. The older women were teasing her and I got the impression that she would not say why. Anyway, I couldn’t make head nor tail of it, and it was not my business so I just left it. Although I do remember how thoroughly miserable she was the whole time I was there.

I’m sure you can understand what concerns me now. I saw how he lived, and how he was treated. Basically he was waited on hand and foot, and he was in a position of respect with all the authority and power of a Mahatma. He could easily have used this position, as he had in the past with Susan, Abi, and many others, to continue to satisfy his perverted sexual desires with the young housekeeping staff and maybe other younger children elsewhere in the ashram.

So, as you can imagine, I have many questions, like: -

Did you or anyone else in authority in the ashram know of these allegations?
When did you find out? And what did you do about it?
Did you question him about it? And what did he say?
Did Maharaji question him about it?
Did Maharaji talk to you about it? And what did he say?
I understand Jagdeo has left the ashram, is that because of the allegations?
When did he go? And where has he gone?
Have any measures been taken to ensure he cannot continue this behaviour?
Have any enquiries been carried out among the ashram staff to see if he was indulging in paedophile behaviour while living in the ashram?

I’m sorry to put it bluntly like that but those are the obvious questions that would come to anyone’s mind. They certainly come to my mind and I find that I am quite haunted by them. I was a victim of sexual abuse as a child and I know the lasting damage it can do. I spent a lot of time talking with Jagdeo (at meal-times especially!) and I am quite shocked by all this. Which is why I am appealing to you in person to answer my questions.

In the bigger picture, the general impression I get from the ex-premies is that Maharaji should have and could have acted on this issue years ago, and that by failing to take action he has probably enabled Jagdeo to continue to abuse young girls and boys all over the world, including in India, for many years.
There is no doubt in my mind that this single issue is responsible for a lot of people losing faith in Maharaji, becoming disillusioned and leaving. It is not going to go away until it has been properly addressed by the appropriate people. In this case, I think it’s down to Maharaji himself, and to Elan Vital to take the initiative.

I realise this is heavy duty stuff to suddenly bring up out of the blue, but I do hope you can take some time to answer. If you would prefer to talk on the phone please give me a call and I will call you back at my expense. I seem to have lost your home phone number, but if you send it with a convenient time for me to call, I’ll call you there. My phone number is *********
With many fond memories of my time in the ashram, including fighting off the red stripe gang!
All best wishes,
Karen


e-mail dated 2nd April 2001

Dear Deepak,

Thanks for phoning me on Friday; I really appreciate you taking the time to talk to me. It was a bad line for me, I could hear my own voice echoing all the time and you were rather faint so I was shouting, sorry about that! So anyway, just to re-cap on our conversation.

As I understand it, the first you heard of the allegations against Jagdeo was when they came out on the ex-premie website, you said maybe 1999, and that you then took the evidence to Jagdeo, and along with one or two others you interviewed him about it. He was very upset and totally denied it. You told him to go away and think about it for some time, and then you interviewed him again? (I wasn’t clear about this) and he still denied it, but that eventually he came to you in tears and said that with this hanging over his head, he could not stay in the ashram, and he left. As far as you know, he went back to his family, but that you do not know for sure where he is now.

I understand that you spoke with Maharaji about this, and that he told you that prior to 1999 he had not heard about it, and that, knowing how strict M has been in the past with any Mahatma who stepped out of line, that you believe he could not possibly have known about it or he would certainly have taken action. Also you said that because he has such a sharp memory, he could not have forgotten about it.

You think it is most likely that the people Susan spoke to had failed to pass it on to M, and that, in fact you had spoken to Randy Prouty about it and he had said that he had not clearly understood what Susan had told him. When I mentioned that Susan had then told Judy Osborne about it and what she had reported back to Susan, i.e. that M had heard about it and was glad it was not a new incident, you had no information on that.

You explained to me that people are always asking you to pass messages on to M and that it puts you in an awkward position, so you tell them to write to him. I said it was a shame that neither Susan nor Abi had ever heard from him about this. In fact, although I have heard M say that he personally reads every letter that is sent to him, I consider this somewhat unlikely and have certainly heard of other instances where genuine grievances have remained unacknowledged.

The one thing that I feel we did not properly address in the phone call was my concern about the incident that I witnessed involving the young housekeeping girl and my worries that Jagdeo may have been abusing her and others. You expressed your certainty that nothing like that could go on in the ashram, that you have very strict rules etc. But you did not say whether you had conducted any investigation to check on this.

I have talked to ******about this, and of course she knows the housekeeping staff much better than me. The incident I witnessed was before she arrived. She does not rule out that my suspicions may be justified, but she has not read the allegations against Jagdeo and only has a vague idea of what they are. She does offer another explanation of why a young girl would be crying and not want to go to Mahatma ji’s room. From her observation, (mine too) all the housekeeping staff were terrified and oppressed by him. He was a very demanding man, he had them all running around for him day and night. He was so fussy and particular, everything had to be done perfectly, and he wore them out. So she is not surprised that one of them was crying because she did not want to go to his room. This in itself presents a picture of an abusive authority figure who exploited his position of power for his own benefit. However, she also feels that the staff should be questioned about it, but that it would need to be done very sensitively, and by a qualified person and probably a woman. It would be no good you asking them Deepak, because they are all in awe of you, and would not speak freely.

Deepak, I urge you to do everything you can to find out the truth about this. I believe very strongly that he was guilty of some terrible acts of sexual abuse on young children in the West. Because of my own past experience, I have read up on the subject and I know that paedophiles do not change their habits without treatment, and even then, they often don’t. I also have personal experience of a convicted sex offender and am familiar with the ability to totally deny it, and lie about it, and cry about it.

I would still like some reassurance that Jagdeo is no longer in a position to commit any more paedophile acts. I don’t know what the law is in India about this, or how much protection there is for children. I suspect it may well be less than in this country. Perhaps you could give me some information on this? I do know that many people are also anxious to know whether any measures have been taken to safeguard children in the community where he is now living. Can you do anything about this? Or find out?

I know you were shocked and upset by my original letter, and I realise you will find this one equally upsetting. I know how much you love and respect Maharaji and how sincere you are, I can hear it loud and clear in your voice. I also feel very sincere about trying to uncover the truth about Jagdeo, and to do what I can, even at this late date, to see some justice done and to help Susan, Abi and his other victims, at the very least, to get some acknowledgement for what they have suffered. I personally think this really needs to come from Maharaji himself.

Could you confirm that I have accurately recorded the relevant points of our conversation? I would really like to be able to tell Susan and Abi about the current situation, and any more information you have would also be very welcome.

Once again, thanks for phoning me, I am really pleased that you are open to a free discussion on this very difficult subject.

With my very best wishes
Karen

e-mail dated 11th April 2001

Dear Deepak,
I e-mailed you on 2nd April 2001, with my comments and notes after our phone conversation of
Friday 30th March.
In my e-mail I asked you to confirm the relevant points of our conversation.
I realise this puts you in a difficult position, but in my opinion, the TRUTH
is by far the most important factor here.
I realise you may be away, travelling, in Amaroo, or whatever! But, I also know this is not an excuse for not receiving e- mail, not in this day and age!
So...if you don't respond in another 24 hours, (i.e. by Friday 13th April 2001) I will assume your silence means that you don't want to address this matter further. In which case, I will free to copy and distribute my previous e-mails to anyone I wish.
As you may have gathered, I feel very strongly about this particular issue, I feel it has been handled very badly, and all with a view to saving face for Maharaji, with little consideration for the real circumstances, and absolutely no humane care and concern for the actual and genuine suffering of Jagdeo's victims.
In the circumstances, I have no alternative but to take this rather adversarial line with you, someone who, I like and admire, and whom I would like to think of as a friend.
Sorry Deepak,
With very best wishes
Karen
karen@ringrose.org.uk


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Date: Thurs, Apr 12, 2001 at 19:34:05 (GMT)
From: Joe
Email: None
To: Karen Ringrose (Kelly)
Subject: Karen, can you explain?
Message:
1. Who is Deepak Bhandari?

2. When were you at the IOC and saw Jagdeo being waited on, and you saw one of his servants crying? How recently was that?

3. Who is 'the red stripe gang?' I assume that's a joke.

4. Did Deepak talk to Judy Osborne? Did Deepak make any attempt to contact either Susan or Abi? Did you ask him about that?

5. When Deepak confronted Jagdeo, what specific information did he give him? Did he reprint, for example, Abi's story from the internet and give that to him? How specific was he? Do you know?

6. What was your relationship with Deepak? Have you known him for some time?

Thanks again for your great help in all this.

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Date: Thurs, Apr 12, 2001 at 21:07:10 (GMT)
From: Kelly
Email: karen@ringrose.org.uk
To: Joe
Subject: Karen, can you explain? I'll try
Message:
1. Deepak Raj Bhandari is the guy who is now running things in India and Nepal. M's right hand man out there. Prior to this he was in charge of the Delhi ashram, he took over after Sampuranand 'retired' due to ill health? I got the impression while I was there that he had been brought in to clean up the ashram after Sampu's somewhat corrupt regime. I can't elaborate any further on that, except to say that Sampu has a large luxurious house in the ashram grounds.

2. I stayed in the then called IOC section of the ashram for extended periods, 6-8 weeks at a time. twice a year from April 1996, to Nov 1998. I used to arrive well in advance of major events to help in the preparation, and there would be just a handful of us including Jagdeo who was a permanent resident. I'm pretty sure the scene I witnessed was the last time, Nov '98

3 the red stripe gang is a joke, they go around the ashram prior to events, with red paint, painting the bottom of every wall, building, tree in sight. If it stands still, they paint it! the top is painted white. I was always trying to hold them at bay!

4 I don't think Deepak has talked to Judy Osbourne, I very much doubt he has tried to contact Susan or Abi. He asked me if I knew them, I said just through e-mail. Our conversation was mostly confined to his questioning of Jagdeo, how horrible it all was for him, and how upset Jagdeo was. Total denial.

5 Deepak told me he took the information from EPO to Jagdeo, I assumed he had printed it out, but he certainly confronted him with the allegations from the site. Sorry, I don't know how specific it was. He told me he had told Jagdeo to think about it for some time, that it would be best if the truth came out, that they could help him, but he still denied it.

6 I first met Deepak in 1975 in Kathmandu, when I was living with an old friend of his. then I met him again in the ashram in 1996 when I started doing service there, I had to report to him and saw quite a lot of him....I like him, he has a great sense of humour.

I'm sure there's more I can add to the picture, at the moment I am still reeling from the totally mind boggling news that Jagdeo is engaged in official EV business in Africa. Are they totally mad? Are they totally irresponsible? What will it take to stop him?

Thanks to you and everyone else who has commended my action, it really was the least I could do. now I'm thinking, what is the most I can do?
Kelly

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Date: Thurs, Apr 12, 2001 at 21:54:20 (GMT)
From: Joe
Email: None
To: Kelly
Subject: Thanks Kelly. That helps tell the whole story.
Message:
I don't know if they are mad, just uncarring or incompetent.

One of the things that is the most sad is that there are very sincere people who are premies, who really think they are doing the right thing and sincerely believe that Maharaji has integrity. It's worse for people, maybe like Deepak, who might get caught in the middle, because Maharaji refuses to come forward and take any responsbility himself. The problem is they have faith in someone who isn't worthy of it. But they are often sincere people. I feel sorry for them.

Thanks again for sharing that information. I really do think it will be very helpful in sorting all this out.

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Date: Thurs, Apr 12, 2001 at 20:27:46 (GMT)
From: Marianne
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: Not forum fodder
Message:
Sorry Joe, but I don't think Karen should be divulging all this information on the forum for the EV monitors to read.
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Date: Fri, Apr 13, 2001 at 04:05:21 (GMT)
From: janet
Email: None
To: Marianne
Subject: then form an email ring and keep us all in it
Message:
im gld i read it. i dont care if i read it here or in my email--just put me on the list. 'I'll reactivate my 'reply all' function for this.
whoever wants to be on the ring, say so here. we can take this into email and deny EV their info.
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Date: Thurs, Apr 12, 2001 at 22:26:55 (GMT)
From: Bin Liner
Email: None
To: Marianne
Subject: I agree (nt )
Message:
b
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Date: Thurs, Apr 12, 2001 at 20:54:26 (GMT)
From: Joe
Email: None
To: Marianne
Subject: Cool it, Marianne.... I disagree
Message:
I really disagree. I think we should get the whole story if we can.
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Date: Thurs, Apr 12, 2001 at 22:31:05 (GMT)
From: Bin Liner
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: Cool it Joe .. we'll never get any story if ..
Message:
... we frighten the pidgeons .

Slowly , slowly , catchee , monkee .

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Date: Thurs, Apr 12, 2001 at 23:10:30 (GMT)
From: Kelly
Email: None
To: Bin Liner and Marianne
Subject: Cool it Joe .. we'll never get any story if ..
Message:
To Marianne and Bin liner,

This Jagdeo issue is really rather an urgent matter, the paedophile's on the loose again, I think it is important we publicise this to warn everyone and also to galvanise people into action. As far as gleaning any more information from Deepak or anyone else, I think I've got all I'll ever get, and it turns out to be well out of date anyway. Far from living a disgraced life as an outcast in some remote village in India, he's touring Africa and being treated with respect and honour.

As a source of information, I've outlived my usefulness. I also feel that I have fulfilled a pledge I made to myself and to Susan and Abi to find out what I could about Jagdeo in India. I found out what I could, which was almost nothing. My guess is that he was tucked away in the Delhi ashram for years, because they thought he could do little harm there. Well I suspect that even there, he may well have abused. Will we find out? I doubt it, but we can and must do everything we can to stop him from from committing any more crimes against innocent children and young women.

I think our strength is in sharing information,and sending out powerful messages to those still involved in the cult to please help stop this outrageous abuse of power.

Count me in for some real action now!
Love to you both
Kelly

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Date: Fri, Apr 13, 2001 at 05:01:11 (GMT)
From: bill
Email: None
To: Kelly
Subject: you could email him again...........nt
Message:
sdfh
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Date: Fri, Apr 13, 2001 at 00:55:34 (GMT)
From: Katie H
Email: None
To: Kelly
Subject: Kelly, I agree - and thanks
Message:
For what it's worth, I think it's important that people know what is going on with Jagdeo right now. It might prevent someone from getting hurt, at the very least. I have heard speculation about what he is doing in India for a long time - I don't think most of the Western premies know anything about him anymore.

Your e-mails to Deepak were amazing and brave - thanks so much for doing that.

Love,
Katie

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Date: Thurs, Apr 12, 2001 at 23:05:58 (GMT)
From: Joe
Email: None
To: Bin Liner
Subject: Frightening the pigeons -- absolute nonsense
Message:
I'm not in favor of frightening anyone, and I don't think my questions to Kelly will frighten anyone, and I think those requests were completely appropriate, and I think when you read Kelly's response to my questions you will see that is the case.

What I am actually afraid of, is people being 'frightened' from telling the story publicly, or telling incomplete stories, because of some oblique inferences that these things shouldn't be talked about, because of some non-existent, fairy-tale litigation concern. I'm getting a little sick of that, to tell you the truth.

I firmly believe that bringing all this out publicly is by far the best policy. If some individual has a lawsuit issue, I'm sure they will be informed by their attorney about what to say and what not to say. I don't think any of that applies to Kelly, and certainly not to me.

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Date: Thurs, Apr 12, 2001 at 19:14:07 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Karen Ringrose (Kelly)
Subject: Bad letter, Kelly
Message:
Sorry, I meant excellent letter. I get mixed up a bit.

The Judy Osborne twist is the clincher. And all the better to see Majharaji denying any knowledge now.

Wonder how Judy and Randy feel now? Assuming Susan's telling the truth (I crossed that bridge a long time ago), both Prouty AND Maharaji are liars. Prouty for pretending to have possibly misunderstood Susan (he didn't at all, according to Osborne) and Maharaji for knowing all along just like Osborne said and just like he denied to Deepak here. Only so many ways you can slice this pie. Good work.

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Date: Thurs, Apr 12, 2001 at 21:28:18 (GMT)
From: Kelly
Email: karen@ringrose.org.uk
To: Jim
Subject: Hey Jim man, I know bad means good!
Message:
I also know that you could argue that black is white! and probably convince me!
They really have got themselves tied up in knots haven't they?
But, what is it going to take to get some justice here?
It seems to me there's only one place that Rawat will ever be made to answer our questions, and that's in court.
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Date: Thurs, Apr 12, 2001 at 21:02:01 (GMT)
From: Nige
Email: nige@redcrow.demon.co,uk
To: Jim
Subject: God - wasn't it awful...?
Message:
Kelly, you're a star! - or maybe a constellation, black hole or something... Well done!
Nige (Sagittarius, Venus - or more probably - rage rising. Grrr...)
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Date: Thurs, Apr 12, 2001 at 18:38:24 (GMT)
From: Cynthia
Email: None
To: Karen Ringrose (Kelly)
Subject: Can this be placed into 'Jagdeo section?'
Message:
Karen, Kelly,,,

Thank you for posting these emails. It sounds as if you dealt with it in a balanced way, but you still got stonewalled.

There must be so much fear surrounding this and you have a lot of courage.

Thank you,
Cynthia

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Date: Fri, Apr 13, 2001 at 09:37:49 (GMT)
From: Sir Librarian
Email: None
To: Cynthia
Subject: Can this be placed into 'Jagdeo section?'
Message:
It's all in the child abuse section on The Truth about Maharaji site, for your future reference.
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Date: Thurs, Apr 12, 2001 at 18:04:51 (GMT)
From: Susan
Email: None
To: Karen Ringrose (Kelly)
Subject: thank you Karen also ****best of******
Message:
you have done a very brave thing, and a very honorable thing, with writing these letters and posting them.

My respect and gratitude to you.

Susan

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Date: Thurs, Apr 12, 2001 at 20:43:46 (GMT)
From: Jean-Michel
Email: None
To: Susan
Subject: It will be in the Jagdeo issue page
Message:
I guess ..........
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Date: Thurs, Apr 12, 2001 at 18:06:49 (GMT)
From: Abi
Email: None
To: Susan
Subject: thank you Karen also ****best of******
Message:
I agree, must be a 'best of'.

Karen you are a gem

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Date: Thurs, Apr 12, 2001 at 17:39:04 (GMT)
From: bill
Email: None
To: Karen Ringrose (Kelly)
Subject: wow Kelly....thank you for your great integrity.nt
Message:
sdfg
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Date: Thurs, Apr 12, 2001 at 16:39:20 (GMT)
From: Joe
Email: None
To: Karen Ringrose (Kelly)
Subject: Randy Prouty
Message:
You think it is most likely that the people Susan spoke to had failed to pass it on to M, and that, in fact you had spoken to Randy Prouty about it and he had said that he had not clearly understood what Susan had told him.

So, now Randy Prouty, the lying ******, is changing his story and saying he DOES remember what Susan told him, but nos is saying he misunderstood what she said? Hey, yeah, that's real believable.

Message to Elan Vital Monitors to tell Randy Prouty. Randy, dear, you are dissembling. Remember Bill Clinton?

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Date: Thurs, Apr 12, 2001 at 16:44:12 (GMT)
From: Joe
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: And they just can't explain Judy Osborne!
Message:
And she's the real killer for Maharaji, because she told Susan Maharaji knew about Jagdeo being a pedophile in 1979, and now Maharaji says he didn't know about it until 1999. I guess all they've said about Judy is that 'she can't remember.' She hasn't dissembled publicly yet like Randy is. With both Judy and Randy fall on their swords to protect their Master? Do theyr realize that by doing so they are also protecting Jagdeo? Do they realize they are continuing to heap abuse on Jagdeo's victims in that process? Can they sleep at night?
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Date: Thurs, Apr 12, 2001 at 16:36:00 (GMT)
From: Joe
Email: None
To: Karen Ringrose (Kelly)
Subject: Admiral Job, Kelly, and very powerful
Message:
Thanks for sharing the emails. And thanks more for caring about this as strongly as you do.
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Date: Thurs, Apr 12, 2001 at 16:26:31 (GMT)
From: Abi
Email: None
To: Karen Ringrose (Kelly)
Subject: another betrayal, more lies
Message:
Karen,
thanks for making these letters public. It must be a shock to realise that he lied to you about all of this. What else are they hiding huh?

Thank you Karen

Abi

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Date: Thurs, Apr 12, 2001 at 12:54:40 (GMT)
From: Jean-Michel
Email: None
To: Abi
Subject: Then somebody should get in touch with EV
Message:
in Africa and elsewhere .......
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Date: Thurs, Apr 12, 2001 at 13:04:33 (GMT)
From: bill
Email: None
To: Jean-Michel
Subject: the hell with ev, contact that countries police.nt
Message:
sdgnasg
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Date: Thurs, Apr 12, 2001 at 14:47:33 (GMT)
From: Abi
Email: None
To: bill
Subject: two steps
Message:
1. find out from Elan Vital by what ever means necessary where Jagdeo is exactly and what his schedule is. I'll work on it but I don't have a great deal of time.

2. Then when we know Susan and I will report him to the police

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Date: Fri, Apr 13, 2001 at 04:33:10 (GMT)
From: janet
Email: None
To: Abi
Subject: interpol, too--he changes countries. he's global
Message:
we have everything we need to be successful at this. we are global . we have E_P's in the US, Canada, UK, europe, central america & australia. we have two lawyers. we have a computer security whiz. we have a member with ties to africa. we have two public victims. we have a former teacher from the school. we have contacts in india, africa, and at rawat's house. we have a televison producer with ties to the media. we have a publications and advertising whiz. we have the www.
the only thing that can stop us is us.
there is nothing that can stop an idea whose time has come.

and i beleive mr rawat quoted that to us once. 'what's supposed to happen, has to happen'

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Date: Fri, Apr 13, 2001 at 04:56:10 (GMT)
From: interpol link
Email: None
To: janet
Subject: here
Message:
http://www.interpol.com/
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Date: Fri, Apr 13, 2001 at 05:06:58 (GMT)
From: bill
Email: None
To: interpol link
Subject: thanks Catweasel....nt
Message:
asdga
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Date: Fri, Apr 13, 2001 at 22:49:53 (GMT)
From: JHB
Email: None
To: bill
Subject: Why did you say Catweasel?
Message:
I thought we'd seen the end of that name.

John.

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Date: Sat, Apr 14, 2001 at 19:54:14 (GMT)
From: bill
Email: None
To: JHB
Subject: Hi JHB.............nt
Message:
bmlk;;/v.
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Date: Thurs, Apr 12, 2001 at 10:19:00 (GMT)
From: Abi
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: OPEN LETTER TO MAHARAJI
Message:
Dear Maharaji,

my parents got Knowledge in the early 70s. They gave their lives to you. My father has been your devotee for decades. My brothers and I grew up thinking that you were a magical being, full of divine love and compassion. You were everything to me, my father, mother, brother and friend. You were all riches and you were all wisdom. As a child I walked the streets and gave out out flyers advertising Knowledge to people.

I prayed to you every day. I went to as many satsang meetings as possible. I got Knowledge when I was thirteen. I thought this was the most magical day of my life. I thought it was my real birthday and celebrated it as such. My bedroom was full of photos of you. I picked wildflowers from the local wood and put them in front of the alter to you on my dressing table. I had photo albums full of pictures of you. I meditated for an hour every morning before I went to school and an hour before I went to bed. I bowed down to my alter of you twice every day. I bowed down to an alter of you every time I went to satsang. I cried when I sang Arti. I loved you so much. I tried to practice Holy Name all day at school. I went to satsang instead of doing homework. I organised satsang meetings with other premie children at our school.

I did service whenever I could. I went around my village collecting things for a fundraising raffle for you. People shut the door in my face when I asked them for their old things because they knew I was a premie child, but I didn't care because I loved you. I picked blackberries and made jam and sold it to premies and gave you the money. My mother made your children toys. I lived for the chance to go to festivals and see you and kiss your feet. Every day I got on the school bus I was teased by other children for loving you. They teased me and my brothers endlessly. They said we kissed your feet but I felt such gratitude for being able to kiss your Lotus feet and I defended you all through primary school and all through high school. I kissed your feet so many times Maharaji and you don't even know who I am or what I look like.

My one dream in life was to grow up and spread Knowledge. I wanted to become an initiator. I vowed I would never marry and that when I became an initiator I would buy a gold ring and wear it forever because it would mean that I was wedded to you. I thought I could spread peace and help people find happiness in you. I thought you were a Perfect Master, that I was one of the lucky ones who had been chosen to spread your Word. I thought you were Love incarnate, divine, all knowing, full of compassion, my master.

I prayed to you for protection when your Mahatama Jagdeo was sexually abusing me when I was a little girl. He did this to me in front of my brothers. He went from child to child to child and he told us not to look at what he was doing to the others. We looked. We remember. And then he told everyone but me to leave the room. Do you understand for a moment how scared I was when Jagdeo shut the door behind them? I turned to you, I looked at a photo of you on the wall and I prayed for all I was worth that you would protect me.

Why can't you even say sorry? I treasured all the letters people from Divine Light Mission and then Elan Vital sent me when I wrote to you over the years. What have you done with the letter my father just sent you? Have you even read it? Why don't you meet my father and I? Why can't you spare us a few hours of your time when we have given you so many years of our lives?

Tell me why?

Abi

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Date: Sat, Apr 14, 2001 at 04:25:50 (GMT)
From: Roger eDrek
Email: drek@oz.net
To: Abi
Subject: Abi, your letter will be read!
Message:
It's hard to imagine that with all the premies who lurk here and the EV monitor, too, that word won't get around to even Rawat that your letter needs to be read.

Your letter is very powerful and demands to be read.

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Date: Fri, Apr 13, 2001 at 00:38:03 (GMT)
From: Jim Sander
Email: None
To: Abi
Subject: Very, very courageous, Abi. Thank you. nt
Message:
bb
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Date: Thurs, Apr 12, 2001 at 23:04:20 (GMT)
From: Tony(Aussi Ji)
Email: parisw@ozemail.com.au
To: Abi
Subject: What a beautiful letter Abi.
Message:
Hi Abi,
That was a beautiful letter Abi.I truly hope the bastards are brought to justice,for your sake and all the others' who have been abused as well.Not to mention the children he is abusing now as well.
I wish you all the best Abi and I am keeping my fingers and toes crossed for you.
CHeers Tony.
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Date: Thurs, Apr 12, 2001 at 17:58:30 (GMT)
From: Susan
Email: None
To: Abi
Subject: he is a coward
Message:
that is why. He cares more about protecting himself than protecting kids.

What I don't get is how he can't see that the way to protect himself is actually to deal with this. It will get bigger and bigger until he does, the longer he waits the worse it gets.

He is a coward.

Great letter Abi. Hopefully it will get through to people with hearts out there.

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Date: Thurs, Apr 12, 2001 at 15:39:16 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Abi
Subject: Great letter, Abi. Just great
Message:
This'll rock his world a bit. No doubt about it.
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Date: Thurs, Apr 12, 2001 at 13:07:13 (GMT)
From: bill
Email: None
To: Abi
Subject: rawat aint no maharaji...nt
Message:
afdsg
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Date: Thurs, Apr 12, 2001 at 12:22:10 (GMT)
From: Katie
Email: None
To: Abi
Subject: Abi, I'm sorry
Message:
I wish you WOULD get some answers, but think it's unlikely that you'll get them from Maharaji. Your letter is very moving - hope it at least helped to write it.

Love,
Katie

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Date: Thurs, Apr 12, 2001 at 12:45:12 (GMT)
From: Abi
Email: None
To: Katie
Subject: Abi, I'm sorry
Message:
Katie,
thank you.
With respect, this isn't a form of therapy.

Abi

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Date: Fri, Apr 13, 2001 at 00:21:40 (GMT)
From: Katie H
Email: None
To: Abi
Subject: I understand, Abi
Message:
I didn't mean it that way, although I can see how it sounded that way. The news about Jagdeo is disgusting in more ways than one - I'm still reeling.
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Date: Thurs, Apr 12, 2001 at 13:15:11 (GMT)
From: bill--is is too late for
Email: None
To: Abi
Subject: the magazine article to include this?....nt
Message:
asfg
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Date: Thurs, Apr 12, 2001 at 13:20:56 (GMT)
From: bill
Email: None
To: bill--is is too late for
Subject: Abi
Message:
Contact the police in that country.
The city, and provide whatever info you have and do it today.
Let them act if they want. Give them the option.
You never know how the local police chief views this sort of issue.
You might get a real result out of just allowing them to have information.
Just him being called in for questioning is a huge plus.
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Date: Thurs, Apr 12, 2001 at 13:50:25 (GMT)
From: Abi
Email: None
To: bill
Subject: Abi
Message:
I don't know where abouts in Africa he is and nor does my friend. I was hoping that someone on the inside would be able to help with this.

Of course I shall be calling the police if I only knew where he was.

I hope Jagdeo gets AIDS or is pushed out of the plane.
Abi

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Date: Thurs, Apr 12, 2001 at 10:56:05 (GMT)
From: Abi
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: OPEN LETTER TO CHARANAND,RANDY AND JUDY
Message:

Dear Charanand, Randy and Judy,
shame on you all for the way you have sacrificed your humanity.

Charanand, I respected you most of all of the Mahatmas. I thought you were a wise and gentle man with a pure heart. You gave me a card after my father told you. I kept it for years. It was gold and red and you wrote to me in a fountain pen about how I must respect my one true Father, meditate and thus elivate my soul. I kept this card even when it was battered and old. I threw it out after Susan was stonewalled. How dare you pretend that you remember nothing. My father respected you too. Have you become so drunk on Western materialism that you too have forgotten to listen to your own heart, your own soul? Shame on you.

And Randy. How do you sleep at night? How do you justify what you have done? What possible justification is there. What a betrayal. Shame on you.

Judy. You are a woman. Where is your woman's heart? Look at the children around you and now think about the pain they would go through if they were sexually abused. Shame on you too.

Shame on you all. You have lost your humanity.

Abi

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Date: Thurs, Apr 12, 2001 at 14:23:31 (GMT)
From: Cynthia
Email: None
To: Abi
Subject: SHAME ON CAPTAIN RAWAT AND ELAN VITAL....
Message:
Abi,

SHAME ON THEM, Abi, you are right, they are cowards of the worst kind.

I can hear and feel your frustration and sadness. Your letter to Rawat, and the one to Charanand, Randy Prouty and Judy Osbourne says it all. They are a shameless bunch of immoral cowards.

Shame on all of them for abandoning a little girl, and other children who were wounded so deeply. If I could, I would fly to Africa today and search this guy out and drag his ass to the police. I would do it Abi, if I could, I really would. The only life he deserves is in jail.

As you know, just because the man is old means nothing. So what he's old? I am really sick of hearing ''he's an old man'' excuse, too.

I know he's still out there perping kids, because that's what he does. This monster is and never has been anythingt a pedophile. That's what he lives for, and Elan Vital and Maharaji ALLOW it to continue with full knowlege they are harbouring him. Sick, sick, sick.

I just cannot get it through my head and heart how they can live with themselves. Elan Vital, Rawat and their legal department are the stupidest bunch I've ever come across.

I want to ask you this. Do you still want to continue to be public about this here? I ask because I don't want to make assumptions. And if you've been reading, you know I made a big ass out of myself recently, so I don't want to step on your boundaries...

My love and support is with you, Abi. If you have the strength, don't give up and know you much support here.

Sending you a big hug...I wish I could do it in person,
Love,
Cynthia

P.S. Don't forget to pamper yourself and rest if you can...

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Date: Thurs, Apr 12, 2001 at 16:16:58 (GMT)
From: Abi
Email: None
To: Cynthia
Subject: Organised peadophilia?
Message:
There is a chilling moment when you realise just what harbouring a peadophile means when harbouring entails sending that peadophile around the world (possibly first class) into vulnerable communities where there are plenty of unprotected children. They are not simply protecting Jagdeo. They are doing more than that. By letting him into communities where children are exposed to him they are effectively, if not consciously, condoning the sexual abuse of children. They are guilty of the sexual abuse of children by proxy.

I am worried about what we have learnt about the Delhi ashram selling young girls to brothels. We can be almost certain that Deepak knows about this and that he might even have been involved to the extent at least that he was aware that the ashram had connections with the criminal underworld in India. Can we be certain that those connections have suddenly been severed. Would they be if they are lucrative? I am worried that EV might be involved in a peadophile ring in some way. We know that Asia is a favourite target for those creatures who delight in raping and abusing children. Women and children there are denied basic human rights. They are objectified as sexual objects, mere meat, human trash. There are plenty of poor young girls on the streets in India. These are horrible thoughts indeed. But when I hear that Jagdeo is in Africa and that Elan Vital has lied so much I wonder why they are not only protecting him but are placing him in positions where he can continue to rape and abuse children. Just what are we dealing with here? Why are they protecting him? What are they covering up. Is it worse than we thought?

I assume that Jagdeo was already a peadophile before he became involved in Divine Light Mission. He often made reference to how much he missed his children, especially his daughter. What was he running from when he entered Divine Light Mission? Why has he been given such special treatment?

What does it mean when an international organisation with an elaborate media system sanctions the activities of a peadophile?

Abi

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Date: Thurs, Apr 12, 2001 at 18:09:18 (GMT)
From: Cynthia
Email: None
To: Abi
Subject: Organised peadophilia? Looks Like it is so, Abi...
Message:
Abi,

Your post sent chills down my spine because I've been thinking the same thing about India and Africa regarding the treatment of girls and women, and the presence of Jagdeo and other sex offenders under Capt. Rawat's control in those countries should be sending big red flags to EV's legal dept., but it appears they do believe they are above the law.

This picture is changing drastically since your father's and your latest ''shrug-off'' from EV and Capt. Rawat. I posted below a suggestion that you make a plea to Marolyn Rawat. Now I don't think that would help. She has too much to lose.

This is what I wish for you: I wish that at least one of the other victims you know would also find the courage within themselves to come forward. I'm talking about those within your age group who were at the school when you were there. In cases like these, it always is much more difficult to for police and EV to ignore more than one person.

This stonewalling by EV is beyond my comprehension. EV employees and their Captain Rawat must really believe they are above the law. And not just the US and UK, but all the continents and countries in which Jagdeo and the other of his ''mahatma'' sex offenders travelled on his behalf on his tab.

So I am making a plea to the other victims of Jagdeo to please come forward privately, if you can. This is beyond just one victim and nothing in this world could really hurt you more than you've already been hurt. It won't be an easy thing, but think about how many more children are being hurt today. It's an individual choice, I know, just think about it, please. If you know how to contact Susan or Abi or anyone else involved off of this forum, please, if you can, tell your story. I can't believe I'm asking this of sexual abuse survivors, but this case is quite different. If you are unable emotionally to deal with this, that's understandable; but please think about Abi's courage and persistence, and see if you might be able to do the same.

The fact that Jagdeo and others of his ilk have been harboured by a cult must be made public. There is not shaming the victims/survivors, the shame lies entirely on the head of Rawat, EV, Prouty, Osborne, and ANY ONE ELSE who has had knowledge of these crimes and has done nothing to--at the very least--stop these men from abusing children NOW. Twenty years is a long time for a pedophile. My guess would be that Jagdeo has hundreds of victims--and is an active abuser to this day. Pedophiles usually have about 200-300 victims in their lifetimes and those are conservative estimates. They are predators and don't stop because they grow old.

Abi, I wish I could say I am praying for you, but I don't pray these days. So, I am continuously sending you warm thoughts, gratitude for your enormous courage.

If anyone has access to media, this could be a breaking story. I've been reading some of the cult sites, and cults with less history and standing than EV and Maharaji have been taken to court for these very same crimes.

Love to you,
Cynthia

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Date: Thurs, Apr 12, 2001 at 18:32:01 (GMT)
From: Abi
Email: None
To: Cynthia
Subject: Organised peadophilia? Looks Like it is so, Abi...
Message:
I agree Cynthia. And I do think that there must be so many out there who have been damaged. There are days when I feel I can't go on and then I remember my brothers and those other kids and think about the chidren at the Denver Unity School and Susan and the women she knows and I know I have to speak out until this is resolved.

So please women, put some iron into your souls. Find your wild self, the self that survived, and find the strength you already have and speak out about Jagdeo and the others. The shame is all theres. Let the anger out.

A friend of mine told me about an espisode of buffy the vampire slayer. Dark men who floated above the ground invaded a town and stole everyones voice. But then someone had the courage to scream and the more she screamed the more everyones voice came back. Shout it out. Exorcise the internalised abuser. Vomit it out. Expell the poison. Get rid of it. Its a deathly curse this silence. Cure it with a life affirming scream.

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Date: Thurs, Apr 12, 2001 at 12:19:28 (GMT)
From: toby
Email: None
To: all
Subject: OPEN LETTER TO CHARANAND,RANDY AND JUDY
Message:
it strucks,

so if you put it all together
you can refer to Maharaji only as a criminal subject.

The criminal should be brouht down


Toby

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Date: Thurs, Apr 12, 2001 at 16:46:58 (GMT)
From: Abi
Email: None
To: toby
Subject: OPEN LETTER TO CHARANAND,RANDY AND JUDY
Message:
At the very least they have a lot of damage control to do.
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Date: Thurs, Apr 12, 2001 at 14:09:33 (GMT)
From: Way
Email: None
To: Abi
Subject: Randy Prouty
Message:
Public contact information for Randy Prouty is available at the website http://www.worldassoc.com, in case you would like to send your letters to him.
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Date: Fri, Apr 13, 2001 at 09:11:01 (GMT)
From: Nigel
Email: nigel@redcrow.demon.co.uk
To: Way
Subject: God - what a boring webpage! (ot)
Message:
I can't imagine anything in terms of design and content more guaranteed to drive casual surfers away. 'Exciting' it ain't.
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Date: Fri, Apr 13, 2001 at 16:19:23 (GMT)
From: bill
Email: None
To: Nigel
Subject: His Email just got more exciting.........nt
Message:
sdfhs
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Date: Thurs, Apr 12, 2001 at 14:20:49 (GMT)
From: Abi
Email: None
To: Way
Subject: Randy Prouty
Message:
Thanks for that. I shall!
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Date: Thurs, Apr 12, 2001 at 14:30:38 (GMT)
From: Mercedes
Email: None
To: Abi
Subject: Dear...
Message:
Abi I hear your pain, your courage, your anger and I am glad you are giving them back their shame, they acted shamelessly.
As for the pedophile yes he is sick and also he should be accountable for his actions. He should be in jail.
As for Rawat and the gang they are hypocrites (sp?)they are not to be trusted.
Much love for you Abi,
Mercedes
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Date: Thurs, Apr 12, 2001 at 14:35:00 (GMT)
From: Abi
Email: None
To: Mercedes
Subject: yes, cowards all
Message:
Mercedes,

yes they are cowards. I have no respect for them. They are helping to protect a peadophile. How do they understand themselves? How do they rationalise it?

Mercedes, we have to speak out.

Abi

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Date: Thurs, Apr 12, 2001 at 21:12:44 (GMT)
From: red butler
Email: None
To: Abi
Subject: yes, cowards all
Message:
Hearing a knock Julie looked up from her desk in the ancillary office. 'Come in, he's still playing video games on his new projector.'

The huge rosewood door swung open and one of the Marys stepped just inside. 'Here,' she said stretching her arms towards the desk, 'you have to read these.'

Inside his office, the Boss snapped on the audio. Video games, my ass, he thought. Dumb bitches still don't know about the new system. He smiled to himself and rubbed his damp palms vigorously on thighs. They'd shit if they know about the camera in the can.

Julie rose from her desk with a sigh. 'Not more bad new I hope.'

'The worst, I'm afraid. They found out about Jagdeo in Africa and they're trying to get video.'

'Fuck, er excuse me,' stammered Julie, 'and he was in such a good mood today. His eyes were even clear and he was smiling. Damn!'

'Julie, that's not all. They found out about the Delhi ashram, ah, fundraising operation for propogation. And there's more and more talk about a major publication doing a huge story, lies I'm sure, about the whole thing.'

The panic was slowly creeping up the Boss's throat til it had him like a steel clamp. 'Omigid, omigid omigod' he muttered over and over. He was no longer hearing or seeing anything on the new system. He didn't feel the warm wetness that was beginning to drip off the ebony chair and onto the persian carpet.

It was the smell that finally brought him out of it. What the fuck... The stench was overwhelming but he was returning to his senses. 'Julie, he snarled, 'send Patrick in here immediately and get the lawyers over here now!'

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Date: Fri, Apr 13, 2001 at 01:50:25 (GMT)
From: E. Windsor
Email: None
To: red butler
Subject: and then..
Message:
Reaching for his rosewood cabinet, he opened it with a shaking hand, grabbed the nearest bottle, tore off the top, threw it across the room, and gulped for all he was worth. (And he is worth a lot). Gulping away, a brilliant plan came to his mind. Yes, this was it, the plan, his wonderful plan. He slumped against his chair, put his feet up on the desk and took another swig.

Patrick walked in. His face was anxious, pale, he smiled tightly, tried not to look at the wet patch, the bottle. 'You called Boss?'
'Yeah Pat, lissen to me boy, hees sa plan. We tell them to fuck off and deny it all. Got it? Oh and the video, get them all, thas right, recall the lot. Now!' The boss suddenly sprang to his feet and thumped the desk hard. The bottle still in his other hand, his pants wet, his flesh wobbling with rage, he was not a man to be messed with. Patrick stepped back and smiled diplomatically. 'But Boss what about Jagdeo?'
'I pay you to take care of these things boy. You still want ya house huh. Deal with it. And don't forget, I know nothing. Got to get Amaroo happening. Don't want a media story here. Wes Monica? I wants Monica!! And legal people now, you deal with them. Deepak! Send in Deepak'

The boss lurched toward his gold plated paper basket and vomited.

Patrick decided it was the right time to leave. Julie came in quickly and cleared up the mess and took the Boss to bed. A group of people huddled around his bedroom door whispering. Deepak came striding down the corridor. No-one spoke. He knocked.
'Sthat you Deepak? Come in!'

Deepak entered. 'The gang in Dehli, they suspect. Deny everything. They'll go away. Talk to the chief of police, you know the one. Fools. They can't touch us.'

'Yes but what about Jagdeo?'

'No poor African child gonna talk huh. Its other stuff thats important. Get your priorities right. And now go, leave me. Send in Monica, I want a little bit of Monica!' The Boss began to laugh hysterically. Deepak bowed and left the room.

All over Amaroo, the place they call Journeys End, PAMs made desperate phone calls across the world, to Malibu, Africa and New York. And all the while the great event was getting closer. Tension grew in the Divine Land. Doubts began to surface. People argued with one another, things broke down. But the Boss remained in bed with Monica, a bottle and a few videos.

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Date: Fri, Apr 13, 2001 at 03:27:59 (GMT)
From: red butler
Email: None
To: E. Windsor
Subject: and then..
Message:
The loud pounding on the door startled Julie until she remembered: the lawyers. Plastering her face with her best bliss smile she swung open the heavy door. A shock ran through her body when the two men flipped open their ID's.

'Federal marshalls, ma'am' here to speak to Mr. Rawrat. Julie winced at the mispronunciation but nodded and led them towards the inner office. 'Mr. Rawrat's in there,' she said pointing out the double door with the gorgeous gold leaf swans. 'I doubt you'll get much out of him though. I think he's meditating.'

The shorter agent opened the door and stepped in. His nose wrinkled at the boozy smell and both agents blinked their eyes in an attempt to focus through the smoke and dim light. He heard a rustling and snorting as he approached the king size pull-out sofa bed. Why are the ultra rich always such decadent slobs, he wondered.

“Mr. Rawrat, we’d like to talk with you down in our office if that’s all right with you.” Even if it wasn’t, this guy's goin' for a ride. Pedophiles! Christ, nothing made a cop sicker to stomach than that!

The Boss’s eyes rolled back in head as he reached below the mattress for his bottle. “Whoa, hold it right there! Don’t move!” shouted the older agent. Both had drawn their 9mm’s and thus contributed greatly to the already burgeoning stream of incontinence spreading across the dark blue silken duvet.

“Outta bed now pal.” the younger guy said as they lower their firearms. The Boss stared back with bloodshot eyes. “But I’m not dressed,” he finally said.

“Out now” the older agent said. The little Indian man’s legs kicked at air as he struggled to roll of the huge sofa bed. The agents were surprised at his stature and the younger one actually snickered when they saw the tiny member lost between the man’s fat thighs. How the hell could a little greaseball like him get a woman like her in bed? he wondered, looking over at the nearly comatose body of the man’s companion...

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Date: Fri, Apr 13, 2001 at 04:47:10 (GMT)
From: E. Winsdor
Email: None
To: red butler
Subject: and then..
Message:
The sprawling body of the near comatose woman stirred slightly at the instrusion. She lifted her head.
'Prem baby woz happin?'
'Who is the broad, fat man' said the older agent.
The bloodshot eyes of prem baby were popping out of his head, he was frantically searching the room for his clothes, knocking over ashtrays, bongs and empty bottles. He was too freaked out to answer.
'Your wife know about this?' said the agent with a nasty grin.
The younger agent picked up a soggy pair of large white underpants and threw them at prem baby. They slapped against his chest, fell to the floor. 'Get a move on buddy, we're talking you down to the station.'

Outside the Divine bedroom several minds were disintegrating. Julia was chewing the ends of her immaculate hair, thinking of all that must be organised for the Event. Patrick was slowly and carefully banging his head against the wall. Julie couldn't cope with it. She burst in. 'Maharaji, Marilyn is arriving on Monday with the kids there's a problem with the sewage system in Fine Dining kangaroos keep breaking through the fence the local Aboriginal community want to hold a sacred dance at the rock there's a rat problem and oh, oh.' Prem baby slapped her hard and she slumped to the floor.
'OK buddy, that's GBH too. Get your daks on and get your ass out of here now'.

Monica began to cry. 'But prem baby you said she wasn't coming until late next week. What about our little cuddle pie days, oooh baby ooh.'

'Shut the **** up!' said the ex-Lord of the Universe.

Patrick burst in holding his head and a mobile phone.
'You can't take him down. We don't know who Jagdeo is. We've never employed him. We don't know where he is. Elan Vital and Jagdeo have never been connected in any way at all. It's true really it is and we've got letters to prove it. Our lawyers just said so.'

and then...

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Date: Fri, Apr 13, 2001 at 14:47:52 (GMT)
From: E, Windsor
Email: None
To: E. Winsdor
Subject: and then..
Message:
Under extreme stress Patrick had the unfortunate habit of doing the techniques. It was like a sophisticated nervous twitch. He forced his tongue down the back of his throat and counted to ten slowly. He was only dimly aware of the sobbing woman on the disheveled bed, the stench of something unmentionable and his Lord and Master stumbling about the room in his wet underpants. The agents were standing very still with their arms crossed. Patrick disengaged his tongue and spoke. He forced a blissful smile.
'Yes, and we've got many letters to prove that Divine Light Mission isn't the same as Elan Vital and he's not called Guru Maharaj Ji Lord of the Universe anymore just Maharaji and sometimes Captain Rawat. So you see you've got nothing on us.'

'Oooh prem baby you promised!' wailed Monica from the bed.

'And what's more we have a psychologist who can prove that these claims come from mentally unbalanced people.'

The agents said nothing, just made a few notes in their little books and glanced around at the chaos.

Prem baby continued to scramble about looking for his clothes. Julie lent against the wall hyperventilating, then her mobile rang. She darted up and said 'Divine Residence, may I help you'.

It was a reporter from a large television show in Australia. They wanted to speak to Mr Rawat. 'I'm very sorry Yana but I'm afraid he's busey at the moment. But you might like to try Alberto Humderpinkernickle at Public Relations.'

'What? What was that?' screamed Patrick. The awful stress of trying to organise the Event at Amaroo, the recent chaos, the rumours, and now this, had finally undone him. He snapped and thrust his thumbs into his ears, placing his fingers on the top of his head. 'All mad, these ex-premies are all mad!' He then stuck his tongue down the back of his throat and sat down on the floor and began to meditate.

'Bout the time the world knew about you lot, I'd say' said the shorter agent.

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Date: Fri, Apr 13, 2001 at 00:46:09 (GMT)
From: Susan
Email: None
To: red butler
Subject: Red Butler you are JUST great but one change
Message:
would make that story perfect.

A fan under his chair!

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Date: Thurs, Apr 12, 2001 at 22:45:33 (GMT)
From: Bin Liner
Email: None
To: red butler
Subject: Apologies for slagging you off ages ago(nt)
Message:
b
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Date: Thurs, Apr 12, 2001 at 16:53:56 (GMT)
From: Jethro
Email: None
To: Abi
Subject: How do they rationalise it?
Message:
Hi Abi
Some months ago a devotee of satpal was posting here.
I asked him what happened to the mahatma(Vedpraktanand), who was sent back to India in about 1974/5. He had sexually abused some women. Vedpraktanand joined satpal when the split happened.

Anyway, satpal's devotee did address the issue and said
'in the ashram all is forgiven'. He also said that vedpraktanand is now travelling around India teaching Shastras(Hindu scripture).

I tried to get more information, but got no reply. The person just stopped posting.

I don't think these people have any rationalisation, they just have a mantra in the back of their heads saying 'don't worry, maharaji is in control, all I need to do is remeber HIM, ...blah..blah'.

I'm sure you get my drift.

Take care
Jethro

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Date: Thurs, Apr 12, 2001 at 17:00:58 (GMT)
From: Abi
Email: None
To: Jethro
Subject: How do they rationalise it?
Message:
They are brainwashed perhaps, but does this void them of any ethical responsibilities. Are they so alieanted from any real human emotion that they simply do not feel or think in a way which most othe people would consider to be ethical?

And I know about the rape this woman experienced with this foul Mahatma.

Where did they get these people from? The local prison system? Where they into rehabilitating criminals or was it very corrupt from the start?

I can't help but think the worse.

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Date: Thurs, Apr 12, 2001 at 22:42:48 (GMT)
From: Selene
Email: None
To: Abi
Subject: How do they rationalise it?
Message:
Morality was never a lesson I remember M teaching. It's a world where 2 things matter:
focusing on him, and supposedly on Knowledge whatever that is

The rest is not real to them and the ways and means of rationalization are mind boggling when this minset prevails.

You wrote a great letter to M. I'm not sure what else to say
except to wish you well. It feels inadequate but don't know what else to do.

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Date: Thurs, Apr 12, 2001 at 03:43:41 (GMT)
From: Jerry
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: Radhasoami or Dharamdasis?
Message:
This post is particularly directed to Jean-Michel and Pat, our two resident experts on Maharaji's origins. I've been thumbing through 'Radhasoami Reality', and I'm not so sure that DLM, and now Elan Vital, can be considered sects of it. I think they might really be of the Kabirpanthis group, particularly the branch known as Dharamdasis. Here's why, and I quote:

Dharamdasi teachings are less specific about the higher levels of consciousness than Radhasoami teachings. Furthermore, they require a different kind of initiation and emphasize a spiritual practice that focus on breathing excercises, at least at the initial stages, rather than listening for an interior sound. Radhasoami spiritual masters consistently and vehemently denounce breathing excercises, distancing their own form of yoga, surat shabd yoga from hatha yoga, which emphathizes the control of one's breath and one's internal winds.

Whoa! What's wrong with this picture? I know there's no 'control' of the breath in the Knowledge techniques, but there is still great emphasis on using the breath as a means to enlightenment. So, how do you reconcile Radhasoami's 'vehement' denouncement of breathing techniques if you're going to say Maharaji comes from that camp?

Another reason why I think Maharaji might have greater ties to the Dharamdasis is because of their greater reverence for Kabir. They believe, in fact, that they are direct followers of Kabir. Not only that, but their main tenet is that Kabir continues to manifest himself in a lineage of spirtual masters. Could Maharaji be the latest incarnation of Kabir?! Oh, swoon at the thought!!

Anyway, JM, Pat, what do you have to say to this? Am I missing something, here?

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Date: Thurs, Apr 12, 2001 at 05:28:41 (GMT)
From: Pat Conlon
Email: None
To: Jerry
Subject: Thanks Jerry, terrific sleuthing on your part.
Message:
I will definitely follow up on this. Thanks a lot for the research. Like most yoga disciplines, different cults overlap and call similar techniques by different names.

Shabd yoga was adopted by the early Sikhs as their favorite kriya among the many techniques of prior traditions called variously raja, jnana, dhyana, kundalini, kriya, gyana, shakti etc etc (all descended from a time before writing but first spoken of in the Shiva Puranas and Upanishads and codified by Patanjali.)

The Beas cults descended from the Sikhs but had also at one time been influenced by the Kabirpanths. They all cross-pollinated each other in much the same way that the New Thought Movement sects affected and grew out of each other in New England in the second half of the 19th century.

The yoga renaissance in India is often compared with the Science of Mind movement in that they both decided to prune some of the more arcane theology from old religions and emphasize the ''spiritual'' aspects.

All of these ''spiritual'' yoga cults disdain the breath exercises of hatha yoga and call the breath the Name or the Word and emphasize is mystical aspects instead of simply the health aspects as in hatha.

Now I will check out the Dharamdasis connection. Satpal has definitely read some of their stuff and it shows in his emphasis on teaching his premies old-fashioned morals.

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Date: Thurs, Apr 12, 2001 at 07:54:24 (GMT)
From: Jean-Michel
Email: None
To: Pat Conlon
Subject: Another important fact IMO
Message:
is that father Hans died when his children were quite young.

Maybe Hans was very litterate in Radhasoami teachings (don't forget he's also been a follower of Sawan Singh) and Sant mat teachings (through Sarupanand), but he never had the time to teach his children properly.

Don't forget to read Antidote to Nuclear Bombs, published by DLM in 1962, and very similar to Radhasoami books.

According to some testimonies, some of Rawat's mahatmas would teach k differently in the late 60 and early 70s (giving the Radhasoami 5 names at least).

If you read Radhasoami books (I own one of Kirpal's books), you'll see that the Rawats were plagiarizing Radhasoamis discourses in the 70s, and still do so (usually edited in the videos).

My opinion is that a good part of Hans' teachings (re meditation - and 'spiritual help') have been lost along the way ....

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Date: Thurs, Apr 12, 2001 at 17:32:26 (GMT)
From: Jerry
Email: None
To: Jean-Michel
Subject: Wait a second, JM
Message:
I don't think speculating that Hansji died while his sons were still young does a good job of explaining the discrepancies between Maharaji's teachings and those of the Radhasoami tradition. One thing I think can be pretty certain is that Radhasoami masters, traditionally, don't teach breathing excercises. So how did they find their way into DLM? I'm certain Hansji must have taught them. I don't think Maharaji would be that bold, and independent, from his father's teachings that he would embark on a method of his own. I'm almost certain the techniques we learned from Maharaji, he learned from his father, or something similar to them. And if his father taught breathing excercises, than where did HE learn them? Not from the Radhasomis to be certain.

So, now I'm almost certain that the Anand Swarup of the Radhasoami tradition is not the Swarupanand listed on Maharaji's website. Also the other masters listed in Maharaji's lineage, on his website, are nowhere to be found in the Radhasoami tradition, neither before nor after Swarupanand. The author of 'Radhasoami Reality' does say, however, that the lineage he has charted does not include all of the masters of the lineage, only those most noteworthy. So historically, if Hansji was part of the Radhasoami lineage, he's basically, well, small potatoes in the overall scheme of things.

Still, I have to say, that as far as I'm concerned, the fact that breathing excercises are very much a part of Maharaji's teachings, and I do believe a part of his lineage's as well, would exclude the Radhasomai tradition from his heritage, or at least diminish their importance. Another possibility I'm thinking about is maybe Hansji was some kind of renegade or the disciple of renegades who incorporated elements of both traditions, the Dharamdasis AND the Radhasoamis.

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Date: Thurs, Apr 12, 2001 at 09:53:50 (GMT)
From: AJW
Email: None
To: Jean-Michel
Subject: Another important fact IMO
Message:
Bonjour Jean-Michel,

That was a nice surprise to see that tatty old book getting a second lease of life. I remember plucking it from the shelves as we broke up the Divine Library in 75, when the Education Ashram closed. It was a skinny little orphan, waiting for a home. Who would have thought it would achieve international fame and stardom on EPO?

You really are doing great things to the site Jean-Michel. I had a look the other day. It's looking good too. Merci beaucoup.

A bientot

Anth who loves books as objects as well as words.

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Date: Thurs, Apr 12, 2001 at 09:56:23 (GMT)
From: Jean-Michel
Email: None
To: AJW
Subject: Your books are in a bad shape
Message:
where did you leave them ? That's not your copy I used, someone else's ....
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Date: Thurs, Apr 12, 2001 at 10:08:37 (GMT)
From: AJW
Email: None
To: Jean-Michel
Subject: Go on, spoil my dream you bastard.
Message:
Is there no poetry left in life?
Ou sont les enfants de Rimbaud?
Are we all turning to concrete?
Encore un jour, la meme merde.

Anth le devolvant

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Date: Thurs, Apr 12, 2001 at 08:15:24 (GMT)
From: PatC
Email: None
To: Jean-Michel
Subject: Thanks for that link, Jean-Michel
Message:
I will read some more of it later.

You said: ''Maybe Hans was very litterate in Radhasoami teachings (don't forget he's also been a follower of Sawan Singh) and Sant mat teachings (through Sarupanand), but he never had the time to teach his children properly.''

I think you are saying that Hans was a fairly responsible man when it came to being a preacher but failed as a father. Yes, he was too ambitious and megalomaniacal to have a real relationship with his kids.

You are also saying that he failed to educate his sons, Prem and Sat. Satpal seems to be choosing the conservative approach to the dharam (law, ethics and dogma) and includes that word in his organization's title.

Prem is really ignorant of everything to do with the dharam or the yoga and revels in being an iconoclast except for promoting the religions' most primitive aspect, the Kabirpanthi bhakti.

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Date: Thurs, Apr 12, 2001 at 09:54:13 (GMT)
From: Jean-Michel
Email: None
To: PatC
Subject: What I was trying to say
Message:
is that Hans died when his children were very young, and not in an age to be able to understand the teachings.

That's why Prempal doens't know more than the place where to stick your fingers and your tongue !!

Not that I value the Radhasoami/Sant mat teachings - specially after reading what the ex-followers of these gurus also say - but Rawat's kids were too young to know/understand much.

I guess Mataji was in charge of the kids, and she was not into guruing (except for darshan and money I guess).

My guess is that if they'd have had a proper mentor after Hans' death, they'd have mention it, or show it in some way. The Rawats are illiterate (which is fine - but not when you pretend doing what he's trying to do) ...

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Date: Thurs, Apr 12, 2001 at 10:00:06 (GMT)
From: Jean-Michel
Email: None
To: Jean-Michel
Subject: And don't forget: if Anth's been a teacher
Message:
of Rawat's children, then you can imagine who's been Prempal's teacher .....

I'll have to hide somewhere Anth's goons are not going to find me now ....

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Date: Fri, Apr 13, 2001 at 21:20:48 (GMT)
From: Anth's Goons
Email: None
To: Jean-Michel
Subject: J-M, We know where you live!
Message:
FA - this is not a threat, and anyway, we know where you live as well.
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Date: Thurs, Apr 12, 2001 at 07:53:50 (GMT)
From: PatC
Email: None
To: Jerry
Subject: PS: from the EPO archives
Message:
Here are two long posts arguing that DLM/EV is a direct descendant of the Agra branch of the Radhasoamis. I agree with the writer of the posts.

The funny Hindu titles and exotic names tend to make it all seem mystical but, when I see the words swami, guru, Beas or DLM, I think preacher, reverend, PTL and the Moonies. Same business, different religion.

The Guru Lineage

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Date: Thurs, Apr 12, 2001 at 10:19:23 (GMT)
From: janet
Email: None
To: PatC
Subject: PAT CAN U ANSWER THIS FOR ME?Cv v v v SEE B LO
Message:
read my next post and respond?
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Date: Thurs, Apr 12, 2001 at 10:03:03 (GMT)
From: janet
Email: None
To: PatC and J_M
Subject: thank you so much for this. synchronicity....
Message:
this has been on my mind since last night when i read david lane and posted to the radhasoami club on yahoo about us.
pat, i don't think the comment that hans never had the time to teach his sons properly referred to any kind of magalomania, I think it refers to the sad truth that he died so suddenly when his sons were still too young to grasp the kind of mature teachings that he would have schooled them in, had he lived to educate them in their later years.
we know their ages at his death:
sant ji was 8, raja ji was 10, bhole ji was 12 and satpal was 14. and they had all only had knowledge for 2 years.
i have been brooding on all this and i think prempal is apallingly ignorant and unschooled for the job hans handed him. ( or that the mahatmas thrust him onto the throne for, in the wake of hans's death, whichever version you ascribe to). given prem's scorn for book reading, his assuming the throne at age 8, his aborting his schooling in the 9th grade and his probable ignorance by family concealment of the radhasoami lineage and history, he has no clue what he is and what he comes from, and no adult seasoning or familiarity with his own religious context. what a sad thing at his age!

and this is the man who means to take Knowledge to the world by way of global satellite tv?
talk about the blind leading the blind!

wonder what he would do with a set of books giving him his own lineage and spiritual ancestry?
now there would be a gift with some meaning.

but alas--it would probably be like the rose in the bell jar, in ''the little prince''. she was the only rose he knew and took care of. when he saw a whole hedge of roses he couldnt accept it.

pat--tell me again--what did the radhasoami's rise in response to? didnt you say something awhile back that they were a reaction to western incursions into their land? the british occupation of india? colonialism and christian missionaries??

w3ould you go over that again?
something about this is giving me the creeps and i cant name it yet.

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Date: Thurs, Apr 12, 2001 at 10:16:26 (GMT)
From: janet
Email: None
To: janet
Subject: maybe the ones to teach are his kids! tell them!
Message:
prem pal may be a lost cause, but certainly his sons and daughters are of an age to be hungry to know more about their real family history. maybe sending them a set of the books is the way to give the heirs the true schooling in their own relious context. it would be one possible way to get this pathetic effort back on track, and pull the whole project back into some kind of sense. something ought to be done to correct for the ignorance and illiteracy of prempal's place in this whole saga. He's a travesty to the story, a kind of medieval placekeeper during the dark ages of the history, only able to hold onto the barest, crudest rudiments of the teachings, until the full understanding could come back.
he kind of reminds me of that show--
:'you ARE the weakest link! Goo'bye!'
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Date: Thurs, Apr 12, 2001 at 17:50:15 (GMT)
From: PatC
Email: None
To: janet and J-M
Subject: To J-M and Janet
Message:
Sorry, Jean-Michel, I really did miss the point you were making about Hans dying when the boys were too young to have yet learned anything. However Satpal has continued studying the tradition that his religion comes from and is fairly well respected in India.

Prempal on the other hand probably would have eschewed study no matter how old he had been when his father died. His personality is that of the arrogant ''auto-didact'' (a word which EV so proudly uses in their bio of him.) His whole spchiel is Kabirpanthi bhakti. Kabir the uneducated drunken ecstatic singing blissfully of devotion.

Janet, the christian influence on the radhasoamis is not my theory. Other writers have theorized that the Beas cults arose in response to christian missionaries luring the pious working-classes from traditional Hinduism. Radhasoami incorporated christian values such as love/compassion/morals and toned down the more bizarre aspects of Hinduism to create a religion more to the tastes of the vaisya caste who were on the whole hardworking, conservative and family oriented.

Till then yoga had pretty much been the domain of non-householders, monks etc. It had never been organized into a ''church.'' The Beas gurus saw that the vaisya house-holders were attracted to christianity because of its community and family orientation. They were the first gurus to create Hindu ''churches.'' Till then it had been a chaotic mix of myth and yoga. The people worshipped statues in temples and saddus did yoga. The Beas gurus simplified the theology and mixed it with yoga for householders.

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Date: Thurs, Apr 12, 2001 at 08:02:13 (GMT)
From: PatC
Email: None
To: Jerry
Subject: PPS: ''Rewriting of history started with Hans''
Message:
The above mentioned posts end thus:

''Accordingly, there can be absolutely no question about the fact that DLM is an offspring of the Radhasoami sect. This is a fact that already Hans Ji tried to silence, and it is never mentioned in DLM/EV. The rewriting of history is nothing new, it did not start with Prem Pal and his brother Sat Pal. It started already with Hans Ji.''

That's no surprise. I'm sure it started with the first guru.

The real mystery is: Who is ''happy,'' the alias of the poster? I'd really like to know who he/she was/is.

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Date: Fri, Apr 13, 2001 at 21:30:00 (GMT)
From: JHB
Email: None
To: PatC
Subject: Have you read Happy's Journey?
Message:
The real mystery is: Who is ''happy,'' the alias of the poster? I'd really like to know who he/she was/is

I don't know if Happy has ever outed himself, but he was a regular when I first came to the forum. His journey is well worth reading.

John.

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Date: Wed, Apr 11, 2001 at 22:08:02 (GMT)
From: Peter
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: Last message
Message:
One final message…

I had never wished to attack anyone on the forum, but gerry’s and others continued abusive remarks to me simply got too much.

I didn’t want to nor even ask to join the forum. Nor did I think that I would have to prove myself to anyone there. My initial contact with ex-premie org was through a simple request for any information regarding an alleged incident that might have happened at Spencer Place ashram in Leeds. Any further contact was primarily only by way of waiting around for any response to my request.

I soon though naively allowed myself to be drawn into the forum, and to make one or two what I thought were innocent remarks. Although I quickly realised that nothing is innocent or simple on the forum and that I had seriously underestimated what is an established and deeply rooted culture of the ex-premie.org forum.

However, the level of fear and the malicious abuse expressed about me surprised me (although hardly any of you know me). And that I might be an EV monitor or some premie infiltrator left me reeling from the waves of its paranoia. Having been away for so long from the influence of M and DL/EV, or for that matter from any kind of premie, ex’s or not. This time has allowed me to develop a more open and trusting approach to my life. Sorry if this is naïve! I had seriously forgotten how the years of brainwashing, the extremely narrow thinking, and a total loss of individualism removes a sense of humanness from those who have grovelled at those lotus feet.

I was unprepared for the vicious onslaught from the small but very aggressive group of self appointed ‘guardians’. But which left me, and to be honest, with the overriding and disturbing impression that Maharaji still has a powerful hold over the minds of many who now refer to themselves as ex’s? Clearly I did not understand their horror regarding any reference to certain key words, or the paranoia culture of infiltration, or the almost cult-like protectionism of each other.

Sadly all of this showed me that the influence M is still alive in their minds, be it now in his reversed role of the demonised alter ego Captain Rawat; but alive and well all the same and still got his clutches into so many ex’s. And since I had to struggle for years to remove such a powerful influence from my own, I do not intend to allow its insidious nature back into my own mind.

I thank you for a very big lesson.

Peter

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Date: Thurs, Apr 12, 2001 at 21:53:55 (GMT)
From: Cynthia
Email: None
To: Peter
Subject: Peter, One More Thing...
Message:
Peter,

Look, I know I made a mistake and I hurt your feelings. I don't ask people to forgive me because, well, I'm a bit messed up about that Christian concept. I do have a request though.

Please read the threads above about Abi and Susan. Jagdeo is being underwritten by Elan Vital and Maharaji and he is most certainly hurting children, and any child around him is at risk. I have no doubts about the veracity of Susan's and Abi's stories. This is a very urgent matter.

If you can put aside your anger at me, and just accept for now that I made this mistake, perhaps your input would be helpful in solving this strange saga of DLM/EV/Maharaji harboring a pedophile.

All I ask is that you read the threads. Thanks.

Cynthia

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Date: Thurs, Apr 12, 2001 at 18:14:39 (GMT)
From: Abi
Email: None
To: Peter
Subject: please don't go
Message:
Please don't leave. Just take some time out for a while. Think of that little boy. Speak what he cannot say.
Abi
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Date: Thurs, Apr 12, 2001 at 18:08:35 (GMT)
From: cq
Email: None
To: Peter
Subject: You like pitying people AND playing victim, Peter?
Message:
You like pitying people AND playing victim?

Like it or not, posting on any public forum doesn't guarantee a sympathetic reception to your message.

I felt I needed to counter some assumptions that you made in your second thread here, which was to tell everyone how you think they should and shoudn't feel about the Maha.

You said that 'the anger only makes us look malicious and spiteful' (wrong, mate - anger is anger, malice is malice and spite is spite - muddle those three up and you're painting with a very wide brush indeed). Your third thread (called 'protest and protect') then confused things even more by suggesting the choice we had was between pitying M and despising him.

Since when has feeling anger towards someone been synonymous with despising them?

You seem to disapprove of anger being seen as a healthy and natural emotion, and you equate it with far more damaging emotional states. You once said: 'anger only disempowers us and keep us trapped by his (M's) power'

Well, I for one choose to disagree with that Peter. But that's OK, debate and disagreement are part of what this Forum's all about.

But you really do over-egg the pudding when you come up with lines like this:

' ... and that I might be an EV monitor or some premie infiltrator left me reeling from the waves of its paranoia.'

Ahem,
Look mate, you said you were new to EPO but had been 'monitoring' it (your description, not mine) for some time.

Are you suggesting that it's 'paranoia' to think that EV monitors this site? NO, it's a reality.
Is it 'paranoia' to think that premies infiltrate and post here under false pretences? Again, NO, it's not paranoia, it's a fact that some premies do.

Was it paranoia to consider that the above might apply to you ...? That's a question that may seem ridiculously obvious to you. 'Of course it's paranoia' you'll say, because you know you're not an infiltrator. Therefore any suspicion that others might have about you is unjustified in your book. Well, call it paranoia if you need to, but I hope you won't suggest that surrendering all doubts is a viable alternative!

Anyway, good luck, wherever you find yourself next.

Chris

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Date: Thurs, Apr 12, 2001 at 11:58:41 (GMT)
From: Katie H.
Email: None
To: Peter
Subject: to Peter
Message:
Hi Peter -
I am sorry that you had a bad experience here, even though I do take exception to your remarks about 'cults' and 'paranoia'. I know that I answered one of your posts - the one about anger, which I did NOT think was out of line, by the way - and I was not rude (although I did disagree - but that's OK, right?) Several other people were polite to you too - just mentioning this, so you don't tar everyone with the same brush. You have made some big generalizations in your post above - I feel that they are untrue.

However, I do know that a bad encounter with even one person can sour someone on a message board or forum - I have a friend who went through the same thing on another message board. She had an argument with ONE guy - with twenty people backing her up, but decided to leave anyway, even after the guy apologized. I didn't understand it, but she just did not feel comfortable posting there anymore - and that was OK. Saying that, I do wish you'd give the forum another chance, but will understand if you do not.

In response to some of the other things you and others have brought up - yes, I think some of the things we talk about here are difficult to understand - especially some of the jokes. If you've been away from DLM/EV for a while, you probably won't get some of them - for instance 'smart card' references, or talk about Amaroo, etc. I hope you and others feel OK about asking questions about these things. I agree that it can be difficult to join into an on-going conversation - which is basically what this forum is. Not an 'inner circle', but just a group of people who have been posting here for a while. It is the same on other message boards, IMHO - at least the ones I've looked at or posted on.

Re being protective of other posters here - yes, we do tend to do that. It's human, IMHO, not a sign of a cult. When you get to know someone, you tend to see them as more than their posts (even when their posts are obnoxious and off-the-wall).

Re paranoia and trust - I actually have become LESS trusting of other people on the internet since I started posting here, although this doesn't transfer into my daily life. It's really easy for someone to fake an identity on the internet, or to lie, and some people are very good at it. I have been burned at least twice - nothing major, but enough to make me watch what I say and watch what other people say too. I think it is just common sense. However, I still think it is better to be too trusting (to an extent) than too suspicious.

That said, I didn't see anything wrong with any of your posts except perhaps a slight tendency to challenge people here (not a real problem). I have a couple of other ex-premie friends who think there is too much anger here - they are like you in that they left the cult fairly early on, and didn't have any lasting bad effects from their experience. My own sister is an ex-premie and when I first told her about this site, she said 'It wasn't Maharaji's fault - it was the premies' fault.' (And we lived in a really NICE community - at least compared to other stories I've heard on here.) She has changed her mind now, but that was her first reaction - she felt sorry for Maharaji too.

About your post questioning 'direct action' - I didn't answer, but disagree with the need for any direct action (civil disobedience type stuff). This site has had an enormous impact on aspirants and on current premies - you don't see or read about it on the forum all the time either. Brian, the webmaster, gets lots of e-mails from former aspirants and former premies who never even post on the forum - just read the site. Frankly, I don't feel the need to picket a program or anything like that - it's always been my philosophy to tell the truth as I see it, and let the people who want to listen hear it if they want to. I'm not into shoving anything down someone's throat (I did enough of that as a premie!).

Finally, I wish you'd reconsider your decision not to post here (although I will understand if you don't want to do it). You have gotten at least two sincere apologies, which I appreciate, and hope you can too. Yes, there are people here who will disagree with you (myself included) - the ex-premies here don't seem to be able to agree on anything most of the time! - but I believe that the suspicion that you encountered were unwarranted - and lots of people have said the same thing.

Take care,
Katie H.

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Date: Thurs, Apr 12, 2001 at 06:55:08 (GMT)
From: salam
Email: None
To: Peter
Subject: Last message
Message:
What you give is what you get. The only gurdians here are the ones that care that things are not repeated. some of us sound like paranoid, can be right sometimes, but then there are reasons to justify that. Do not be so simplistic. there are no simple remarks and there is no joining the forum. This place is what we make it.

Also don't be such a baby, you really haven't seen flame. you want hot chillies? there are many ways of delivering them.

This place is open to anyone, however, it is guarded by exes so that exes are not abused. you are welcome to stay and post, but I always followed the the saying 'put you money were your mouth is', ie, do not just say something for the sake of saying, if you do that, you'll get brick hurrled at you.

you really need to be awake to see what is going on. Read and lurke for few more years, maybe that will help,

cheers,

you'll be back.

(hey a simple sorry is all that is to it)

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Date: Thurs, Apr 12, 2001 at 03:46:35 (GMT)
From: janet
Email: None
To: Peter
Subject: peter, wait. please! let us make it up 2 u.
Message:
gerry did not know you were a 20 year ex.

i read the whole board.
LOOK: WE ALL APOLOGIZE
gerry mistook you for a premie who was coming here and condescending to us.
he completely missed your introduction saying you left dlm 20 years ago.

peter, we get premies coming here, all the time, thinking that we are poor, misguided shmucks who ' never had an experience' or ' didnt really meditate' and the like. its a hell of a backhanded crack to have to put up with. you didn't say it to us, but they did, and they do, and it's gotten so we're expecting it, half the time.

we did the drill. we were there. we went the distance. we left after doing all of it and more.

gerry was triggering off that. he thought you were another one, coming in and laying the same stuff on us. his whole attitude vanished, when he 'got it'-- that you're an ex of 20 years.

you got the brunt of his wrath at all the people who came before you. it was his error.

the paranoia has a basis too. we have one poster who keeps changing identities, and tries to get the sick details of what jagdeo did to the children. its nauseating and fixated, and has nothing to do with the welfare of the victims.
we have another one who stalks members from one continent and tries to scare them with claiming he can reveal their identities. despite repeat warnings and hails of abuse,they too have tried to change identities to get back in and do more of same.

we know that elan vital has monitors reading the site daily and reporting back.
EV sent infiltrators to the last london get together of ex's. it was held in a public establishment, so they could come in like the rest of the general public, but they eavesdropped on private conversations between ex's and reported back to HQ later.
maharaji tried to have his lawyers shut roger eDrek's site down. It went down for some time, but roger fought his way back up, and won his rights back to be on the web.

so there is, indeed, a sound basis for the paranoia.
isnt it sick? isnt it stupid? we live in a crappy time. it's annoying that we have to encounter this.

some of it here is just the net itself. some is the due to the strange climate of EV. but if you can give it time and let the shock wear off, its worth being part of.

consider it like a hazing.

i learned about everyone here by following the postings for a long while, till i got the flavor of each person's ways.

i understand your thinking you could just walk in and talk, like normal everyday interaction. trouble is,
see, we are neither/ nor. we arent premies, and we arent ordinary people. we are ex's. normal people have never been thru the bizarrity that we have. and premies are still devoutly wedded to it. we arent either of those categories.
ordinary people dont have weirdos like maharaji and his organization watching them like we do. or friends still stuck in it, who respond like cardboard cutouts when you try to reason with them.

maybe you can help us with the transition. I wish i had just 'walked away', 20 years ago. you have an advantage here, that you can share with us.
just give eveybody time to check you out and get used to you.
i take you at face value. i have no reason to do otherwise, not unless and until events give me a reason. if you present honestly, it will bear out. if you turn out to be something other than what you first present to be,in time you'll hang yourself with your own rope. at some point, whatever deception may have been in progress will become visible. I DO NOT THINK YOU ARE DECEIVING US. i prefer to take things as they appear. its so much wasted tension to imagine all these other things.

please come back and let us start over. there was a basis for each of the obnoxious responses you received, and you did not deserve them.

is there anything you would LIKE to hear us say to you, that would change your mind?

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Date: Thurs, Apr 12, 2001 at 06:12:41 (GMT)
From: JHB
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: Can I challenge this statement?
Message:
Janet said:-

EV sent infiltrators to the last london get together of ex's. it was held in a public establishment, so they could come in like the rest of the general public, but they eavesdropped on private conversations between ex's and reported back to HQ later.

What is this apparent statement of fact based on?

The only people who appeared to be eavedropping on us were a couple from Norway who were intrigued by the sign on our table in the bar which said 'Latvian Night'. Being from Norway (a small northern European country), they were naturally interested in a gathering of people that on the face of it were also from a small northern European country. The fact that we were not speaking Latvian, nor had Latvian accents, made our get-together more intriguing. Before we left for the restaurant, I spoke to them, and explained who we were, and why the name, and I am satisfied with their explanation of their curiosity.

Now did I miss something? And if I did, I'd be very interested to hear the details. I did have a few beers that night after all! Was there any other evidence of EV spies? Or is this another example of our paranoia gone aver the top?

John
less suspicious than most (I suspect!)

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Date: Thurs, Apr 12, 2001 at 12:09:03 (GMT)
From: Katie H
Email: None
To: JHB
Subject: John, maybe I'm naive...
Message:
but who would want to spy on a 'Latvian night' or any other public gathering of ex-premies? What could they conceivably gain? (Unless they just wanted to have a good time?)

Spooks R us?

Love,
Katie

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Date: Thurs, Apr 12, 2001 at 10:04:32 (GMT)
From: AJW
Email: None
To: JHB
Subject: Spies at Latvian Night.
Message:
John,

We didn't notice the spies until after the heroin, speed, whiskey and tranq's ran out. I think it was about four in the morning, about an hour after we finally finished smoking the crack and the acid was starting to come on. There were these three blokes with microphones in the tops of their pens that followed us around the room. One of them had a camera in the end of his cigarette and was broadcasting the whole event live to about 600 security premies who were hiding in the hotel cellar, all wearing headphones and carrying guns. I saw them when I was being sick. Anyway, they implanted a sort of high-tech transmitter in my arse. It tells them what I'm thinking.

Fucking hell John. Where were you?

Anth it's all coming back to me now.

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Date: Thurs, Apr 12, 2001 at 21:14:10 (GMT)
From: Berni
Email: bernibe@flashmail.com
To: AJW
Subject: Spies at Latvian Night LOL -
Message:
Anth you are funny, but I'm glad my name's not Peter - wasn't there another one of them run out of town the last week or so?
I do think there were a few unkind words directed towards him and I may be missing something but he doesn't sound like a threatening sort to me. Even if he is a premie spy then all the more reason to exchange ideas rather than calling names.
What happened to 'all you need is love' ?
Berni
Apart from being able to handle your crack and acid, do you have to be Latvian to go to a Latvian Night?
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Date: Thurs, Apr 12, 2001 at 22:50:09 (GMT)
From: JHB
Email: None
To: Berni
Subject: Spies at Latvian Night LOL -
Message:
Berni,

Being Latvian by blood is totally unnecessary, but being Latvian in the sense of being free from Maharaji is very desrable to attend these parties.

John the Latvian

PS, Berni, where are you from?

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Date: Fri, Apr 13, 2001 at 11:43:06 (GMT)
From: Berni
Email: bernibe@flashmail.com
To: JHB
Subject: Spies at Latvian Night LOL -
Message:
Hello John the Latvian,
My blood is probably Irish but,if being free of believing in the superstitious mumbo jumbo that I used to as a premie,then I am Latvian through and through.
I don't know if it has anything to do with anything but when I was a lad I had some really good friends who hailed from the Ukraine. We used to have good times at the Ukrainian Club.
I also worked for a Polish chap and had the odd drink or three at the Polish Club in Chiswick.
I've played guitar in many an Irish Club ( and quite a few working-mans clubs)
I've been refused entry to a couple of West End Clubs although I was once invited to join the Chelsea Arts Club - but foolishly refused.
I'd like to be a member of the Groucho but (sorry old joke )wouldn't want to be a member of any club that would have someone like me as a member.
If I was younger I would be a member of Home, Fabric and all the other rave places but with my back...
I think that's probably enough clubs for now.
I live in the big smoke (London)
Berni the OldClubian who in reality never goes out and spends all his time in front of the t.v. or computer
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Date: Sat, Apr 14, 2001 at 05:15:28 (GMT)
From: Fanny Adam
Email: None
To: Berni
Subject: Bet you're the life and seoul of the party! nt
Message:
nt
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Date: Fri, Apr 13, 2001 at 20:14:06 (GMT)
From: JHB
Email: brauns@apollo.lv
To: Berni
Subject: Is Berni your real name?
Message:
...if so do I know you? The Berni(e) I know is a friend on Jane and Angie (if you're the same Berni(e) you'll know who I mean).

John Brauns

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Date: Sat, Apr 14, 2001 at 11:18:49 (GMT)
From: Berni
Email: None
To: JHB
Subject: Is Berni your real name?
Message:
Hi John,
Yes Berni's the real name but I'm not the same Berni you knew - sorry. I've never been a big wig in premiedom and dropped out about 10 years ago - before the days of ex-premie.com - which made it pretty isolating and scary. Thinking about it now makes me realise what a good thing this site is for recent dissenters.
Anyway, I didn't know many proper premies except for my circle of friends so I doubt if we would have crossed paths.
Nice to meet you now though.
Berni.
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Date: Thurs, Apr 12, 2001 at 12:24:05 (GMT)
From: JHB
Email: None
To: AJW
Subject: Look Anth...
Message:
...crack, heroin, speed, and whisky are all very well, and I'm sure in normal sircumstances you can handle them, but you're not telling me you took them after drinking Latvian Black Balzams?????

YOU IDIOT!! That's a lethal combination. Go and see you priest immediately.

Sheesh! (copyright Katie Haering)

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Date: Thurs, Apr 12, 2001 at 10:37:52 (GMT)
From: salam
Email: None
To: AJW
Subject: I figured that much
Message:
was gonna say something about the security camrras, but seeing that you had a transmitter implanted you sound fine.
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Date: Thurs, Apr 12, 2001 at 02:21:11 (GMT)
From: Gregg
Email: None
To: Peter
Subject: the Forum
Message:
I'm a little busy now and have not read the repies below so I may be repeating them but, anyway, here goes:

The fact that we are engaged in the business of demystifying the faux-guruhood of Maharaji does not prove that we are somehow under the spell of Maharaji.

That I have to spell this out to you is apalling, and points to the extent to which premies have been brainwashed to discount logic, reason, and common sense.

I await, and expect to await and await, your reply.

Gregg.

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Date: Thurs, Apr 12, 2001 at 01:30:50 (GMT)
From: Cynthia
Email: None
To: Peter
Subject: Never Say Never, Peter....
Message:
Peter,

I saw your post a couple of hours ago and decided to think about my reply before jumping in here. I've read all the responses thus far and value them all, including, Gerry's, but of all of them I liked Anth's.

Yet the most prominent thoughts I am having right now is that I owe you an apology, and that EPO isn't a cult.

I am sorry for misjudging you and making an accusation. One of the things I want to convey to you is that we are allowed to make mistakes here, as I have made in judging you. The second thing is that I hope you don't judge everyone by the actions or words of the few, or me. That's not fair either.

I went back today and re-read all of your posts and the threads which you started. In some you were honest and calm, yet in others you were indignant and sarcastic. Then you came up with the post to Gerry, expressing a lot of rage. This caused me to feel concern about your intentions.

It's sobering to be wrong, believe me. I wish Maharaji would ''sober up.'' You see, I had a VERY rocky beginning here also. I entered the room and I thought I knew what was wrong with the place and I was gonna fix it come hell or high water. I started thread after thread not realizing that I was the newcomer. I left. Came back. Left. Then came back and here I am. Why?

Because this is the only place in the world, yes, the world, where a person who has been involved in Maharaji's cult can come to discuss the issues which surround exiting his cult and not have to explain everything. Each of us is individual but we all for whatever reasons, became emeshed inside of that insidious cult in devotion to that greedy, con-man, Capt. Rawat. So yes, perhaps Maharaji still occupies our thoughts and belief systems--that's the entire point of even posting here. To try to make sense of the brainwashing, body-sapping, soul-stealing and mind-fucking that Maharaji did to us. To seek support and to help others who are having difficulty because it's a long healing stretch.

I'm trying to recover from the love and devotion that I had for him, the essence of my spirituality, and to realize that he is a human (and not a very nice one at that) and that I also am human, imperfect, and able to realize I can have faults, and make mistakes which is good if I learn from them. It's the ability to admit that I'm wrong that makes me a whole person. That does not make me infallible, though, and I am glad of it.

This forum is quite different from any internet newsgroup, forum, or webring. You don't have to stop posting here just because you don't like me, or 'cuz I did you wrong.

I sincerely hope you can understand what I am trying to say. I can assure you that if EPO and this forum were a cult, I'd have been avoiding it like the plague, believe me.

I can't think of anything else to say. I don't claim to be perfect, in fact, I've been striving NOT to be perfect for a long, long time. I do like being human, though. Again, I'm sorry.

I also hope the issue you discussed is resolved on way or another. It's late for me and I have to sign off for tonight.

Sincerely,
Cynthia J. Gracie

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Date: Thurs, Apr 12, 2001 at 01:18:04 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Peter
Subject: Could we talk a bit before you go, please?
Message:
Peter,

I, for one, didn't see much cause for suspicion in any of Cynthia's points and I sure wouldn't have leapt to her conclusion even if I did. There just wasn't enough there.

Nor did I think Gerry had made any sort of case against you. I go over that with him in the thread below that deals with this.

On the other hand, we do get all sorts of interlopers, trolls, premies and troublemakers here. Unfortunately, some people jsut say something at some point that raises suspicion a bit and yes, they get patted down. It's unfortunate but it happens. I'm not excusing anyone's unwarranted attack on you, just trying to put it in some perspective.

Now I can understand your anger, Peter. If you're just another ex dropping in, you're right, what a fucked reception, huh? I'd be angry too, I'm sure. All the same, your whole thesis that Maharaji still has our minds somehow, only now in reverse, is stupid and offensive. What you're dealing with here is more a reflection of internet suspicion, sometimes justified, sometimes not, than anything to do with Maharaji. It's too bad you won't stick around, actually, if you've got those kinds of silly ideas still surfing your brain waves.

So, if you go, too bad. This place is for anyone and everyone who ever got stuck in the Maharaji cult. Thus, it's yours too. If you were wronged you deserve an apology. If you really are some sort of deceiver, you don't. If you stick around it'll all get clarified sooner or later. It always does.

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Date: Thurs, Apr 12, 2001 at 01:59:00 (GMT)
From: Deputy Dog
Email: None
To: Peter
Subject: Yea Peter, stick around for some more abuse (nt)
Message:
Fill your mind with things that are going to get you there.
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Date: Thurs, Apr 12, 2001 at 12:00:23 (GMT)
From: Katie H.
Email: None
To: Deputy Dog
Subject: Sheesh, Dog!
Message:
I know you and Jim don't get along, but do you really think everyone here is abusive? (I don't think so.) That comment seems unworthy of you, IMHO.
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Date: Thurs, Apr 12, 2001 at 15:53:04 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Katie H.
Subject: Why do you always do that, Katie?
Message:
Why do you always do that? Characterize some premie's resistance to rational dialogue -- yes, that applies to Dog. See my post below 'Thank God for cross-examination' -- as a simple personality conflict, usually, as it happens, between them and me? Your post implies that while I might be 'abusive', others -- like you, perhaps? -- aren't.

Is that what you think, Katie? That I 'abuse' Dog? I get so sick of hearing you say this shit. Who do YOU abuse, Katie? Oh, I see: no one. Who do YOU 'not get along with'? Oh, I see: no one. My, my, my, aren't we pleased with ourselves!

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Date: Fri, Apr 13, 2001 at 00:19:34 (GMT)
From: Katie H
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Sheesh, Jim!
Message:
Remind me not to post until I've had about 10 cups of coffee! I didn't like Dog's post and was expressing that - and no, I didn't mean to imply anything that you inferred. Your and Dog's posts to each other are MUTUALLY critical - and I don't see how anyone by any stretch of the imagination could say that you and he 'get along'. I said NOTHING about myself - although your post tells me and everyone else plenty about what YOU think of me.

Thanks a lot.

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Date: Fri, Apr 13, 2001 at 02:30:37 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Katie H
Subject: Sorry, maybe it's my imagination -- anyone?
Message:
Sorry to jump on you, Katie, but take a look at what you said again:

I know you and Jim don't get along, but do you really think everyone here is abusive? (I don't think so.) That comment seems unworthy of you, IMHO.

Am I just imagining it? See, I can't help but think your message is pretty clearly 'I don't have a problem with you thinking Jim's abusive, Dog, but surely you don't think that about the rest of us [good folk of the forum], do you?'

Wouldn't it be nice to see you one day say something along the lines of 'Shut up, you looser!' ...sorry, I started to make a joke here, I think, but just gettign this far is cracking me up. That's why -- or one reason I'd never be a good comedian. Can't stop laughing at my own jokes ...

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Date: Fri, Apr 13, 2001 at 04:02:55 (GMT)
From: Deputy Dog
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Sorry, maybe it's my imagination -- anyone?
Message:
No it's not just your imagination Jim. I for one think you are abusive. And what's with 'Shut up, you looser!' Watch the spelling there Jim.

My complete response to you is below in 'Thank God for God!!!!!'

Jeez the posts are flying by these days.

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Date: Fri, Apr 13, 2001 at 04:11:44 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Deputy Dog
Subject: With all due respect, Dog, that's not the issue
Message:
The question, Dog, isn't whether or not you think I'm abusive. Rather, it's whether or not Katie does. See?
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Date: Thurs, Apr 12, 2001 at 08:28:59 (GMT)
From: AJW
Email: None
To: Deputy Dog
Subject: Come on Dog...
Message:
...it ain't as bad as all that is it? I remember you having a civilised conversation with someone here around late '99.

How are things hanging with you and the Captain nowadays?

Anth, rotting with the cabbages in Hell.

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Date: Thurs, Apr 12, 2001 at 04:06:54 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Deputy Dog
Subject: If it's so bad why do you keep coming back?
Message:
Dog,

You're on thin ice on this one. This forum has been invaluable for you despite your every effort to avoid connecting the dots. It's intellectual cowardice, Dog. What you call worse than a root canal, is just the prospect of having to face the truth.

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Date: Thurs, Apr 12, 2001 at 03:55:15 (GMT)
From: janet
Email: None
To: Deputy Dog
Subject: BAD DOG! OUTSIDE! NO BISCUIT 4 U! NO! QUIET!
Message:
dog, what are you doing? trying to keep our guests from coming in? do you think you can persuade this man to go back to maharaji? not likely.

what then? since when did you decide to guard our door? this place is for EX- premies, dog. you arent an EX. are you? have you decided that this is your home, now? your turf? your territory? that you're gonna sleep by the door and bark at new people to keep them from coming in?

bad dog. nononononono! boff your nose with a newspaper! go home! this is not your house! shoo ! until you can behave, you have to stay outside. and not in the front yard where the doorbell is! now git! go on! go home!

or i will call the dogcatcher and they will take you to the pound! bad dog.

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Date: Wed, Apr 11, 2001 at 22:59:35 (GMT)
From: AJW
Email: None
To: Peter
Subject: Peter's lightning visit to the Forum.
Message:
So there we were, sitting in the bar, having a beer, when in bursts Peter. He whirls around a few tables, has a natter with a couple people, and the next thing you know he's in a scrap with one of the locals. Then he's up on the table, telling us he ain't coming back to our bar ever again, because there's a load of nutter here (as if we didn't know already) and he's off out the door.

Well, I think he's standing outside actually, listening to what we say about him. I'll bet you he sticks his head round again and says something else before he goes.

Anyway, I reckon it's a pity he didn't count how many people were rude to him, then count how many people post on the forum. He would find that most people here are usually quite friendly, supportive and sympathetic. (I hope he's still listening.)

The fights that break out here are strange. They're like artillery battles. You never see the person you're shooting at. You've most likely never even met them. (We'd very rarely say such nasty things to people if you met them in person.) But when it's just a name on a screen, it's easy to start shooting.

One of the prices of having an atmosphere of freedom of expression here, is that people who have never met each other may be rude to each other for trivial reasons. If a premie comes here and gives satsang, then we've every right to tell them to fuck off. And if they persist, we are justified in repeating the message more creatively. But if we start setting into each other, for really petty reasons, then there's something wrong.

One great thing about this place is it's completely ephemeral. By the weekend, everybody will have forgotten about this, and if you don't post for a few days, they'll all forget about you too. Even if you've been posting every day for ages. It's like the daily newspapers. Who can remember the headlines or the gossip from last week? Only the people who they were about, or the people who wrote them. Nobody else gives a toss.I guarantee, if you return in three or more days, nobody will even remember you said you were leaving.

And just as there were premies who were a bit loopy, there are ex-premies who are a bit loopy. You don't have to take everything everybody says as the truth. We're all individuals with our own opinions. Of course people disagree. Big deal. It's not personal.

Anyway Peter, (if you're still there) all the best mate.

Anth who knows what it feels like to get slagged off on the forum. (Most people get into a slanging match sometime or other.)

BLither blather past my bedtime.

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Date: Thurs, Apr 12, 2001 at 01:12:05 (GMT)
From: Brian Smith
Email: None
To: AJW
Subject: Peter's lightning visit to the Forum, Yes Anth
Message:
Well Anth, it looks as if you have definined the general atmosphere of the forum and common condition of communication in many of lifes aspects quite accurately. You pretty much tell it like it is, I love your bar room bit, what a graphic breakdown, I have been there and seen that so many times, great analogy.

It behooves me to think that one would simply throw in the towel just because there are some unpleasantries exchanged over differences of opinion. That is mostly what life is anyway...

Agreement is great when it happens and you can chance find it, but one rarely does.

Come on Peter, hoist another round, lets have a go at it and remember, it is quite the exercise in mental and emotional resilence to test the boundries of one's experiences here.

Yes, there are different rules and some strange protocol involved out here, but where else can you could you engage in these issues at the no holds barred level that has to exist for anyone to make progress one way or the other regarding M and the cult.

I think that you will find out that it is not so bad to hammer at each other when digging for the truth of these deeply imbedded issues we deal with here. It is just different, and it can sometimes be quite explosive and confrontational.

By embracing the process and the difference's instead of taking your self out of the game is the way to fruitful inquiry. Trying to make a normal conversation under normal rules is just another soggy expectation when dealing with the abnormal issues raised by the cult and M.

What we are dealing with here cannot be considered normal, I think that it is very abnormal to join into a cult and believe what I used to believe about M the cult and that whole business.

I say it is unrealistic of me to think that I can get out of an abnormal situation without abnormal effort and abnormal confrontations. I made the most progress when challenged and under fire and when I felt the most uncomfortable.

I do hope that this is not your last post and that you can see what is really going on here. No matter what communication style or personality that you encounter here, I have learned to trust the common motive of every serious exe who posts here.

I think that we are all struggling with the same stuff, and we just want to be free, one of the ways that we can express our freedom is to vent openly for the first time with others who know what we are talking about.

That is a not so abnormal after all, so don't quit yet Peter, it does get better

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Date: Thurs, Apr 12, 2001 at 13:12:45 (GMT)
From: bill
Email: None
To: Brian Smith
Subject: Yer painting with too broad a brush Peter..nt
Message:
fsdgsh
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Date: Wed, Apr 11, 2001 at 22:58:39 (GMT)
From: Sir Dave
Email: sirdavid12@hotmail.com
To: Peter
Subject: I missed it all but
Message:
I'm afraid I've missed all the abusive posts which you're talking about but I'm sorry that some people here have abused you. I read originally some post about two ashram premies in leads who raped a young boy. Was that you who wrote about that?

I don't know how or why some people have decided to abuse you. If they have, don't get involved. They are not worth the effort or the time spent typing a message. Just because someone is an ex-premie, it doesn't mean they are worth listening to or trying to communicate with.

I don't know who you are but I was an ashram premie in the Midlands and Stoke in the early seventies. Our paths would have crossed. Email me if you want.

.. Dave

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Date: Wed, Apr 11, 2001 at 22:56:18 (GMT)
From: Moldy Warp
Email: None
To: Peter
Subject: Last message - a few points from your post
Message:
I got roasted by a few posters and accused of being a premie mole when I was new here. I posted a joke about if everyone here had spent as much time meditating as they did posting on FV they would all have realised K by now - the irony seemed obvious to me at the time - but unfortunately words alone cannot always convey what we mean and things can get misconstrued.

You wrote:
'Although I quickly realised that nothing is innocent or simple on the forum and that I had seriously underestimated what is an established and deeply rooted culture of the ex-premie.org forum.'

Well, yes, this is an established forum and people who post get to know each other.But, if you have been reading this for some time you MUST know that there is a huge diversity of opinion here
It is a place where people can express all kinds of emotions without having them censored as 'mind' by Rawatculture.
It is also a place that changes and shifts in flavour depending on who's posting and as new posters arrive.

You wrote:
'I soon though naively allowed myself to be drawn into the forum, and to make one or two what I thought were innocent remarks.'

But, if you post here you do it totally out of free will, not cos anyone here is drawing you in.
And your last 3 paragraphs - you are ranting a bit there - come on admit it! It was fair enough of you IMO to get upset with Gerry (sorry Gerry)but, as I said people here get angry ( as you MUST know if you have been monitoring/lurking or wotever anyone calls it.If you persevere you will find lots of warmth and friendliness here. Lucky you if you have regained your innocence and freedom (and I don't mean that to sound sarcastic)- for some it takes a long time and one of the great things about this forum is that it allows people to express themselves as they are going through many different psychological processes.

You wrote:
'the almost cult-like protectionism of each other'.

Well come on - what's wrong with a protective attitude to people you are coming to know and love here?
I hope you stick around
Yours Moldy who is ABSOLUTELY NOT IN ANY KIND OF CULT

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Date: Thurs, Apr 12, 2001 at 00:18:19 (GMT)
From: Selene
Email: None
To: Moldy Warp/Peter/thread
Subject: the 'getting to know you stage'
Message:
During one of our organizational brainwashings by outside consultants, I mean work not the cult! we had this workshop on the getting to know you stage.
I was going to go into a big lecture to Peter about first impressions but decided fuck it what do I know anyway?
I do know that I felt fairly comfortable with a few of the other new posters here, and it felt good to exchange discussion with them.
Gut feelings are something I have ignored far too often and been seriously burnt. Anyway I don't think I was rude really, irreverent maybe but sheesh all the posts were so damned heavy.
And thanks Moldy (what a name!) for the comments about supporting others we care about here. It's not a bad thing!! and we felt the rath of a few nasty people coming through here lately.
Not talking about Peter in this case.
It sucks to get attacked and at least for me makes me more suspicious. Only a fake god could create followers that mean.
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Date: Thurs, Apr 12, 2001 at 05:19:24 (GMT)
From: moldy warp
Email: None
To: Selene
Subject: the 'getting to know you stage'
Message:
yeh . I agree with you about feeling comfortable with people here. Getting attacked sucks, but getting attached doesn't, and one of the amazing things about this forum is that it allows like-minded people to get to know each other and start their lives anew xxx.
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Date: Thurs, Apr 12, 2001 at 05:25:57 (GMT)
From: Nige
Email: None
To: moldy warp
Subject: amen...(nt)
Message:
luv ya moldy warp.

xxx

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Date: Thurs, Apr 12, 2001 at 05:29:18 (GMT)
From: moldy warp
Email: None
To: Nige
Subject: ditto amen...(nt)
Message:
I luv ya too Nige
xxx
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Date: Wed, Apr 11, 2001 at 23:55:47 (GMT)
From: Nige
Email: None
To: Moldy Warp
Subject: Gawd, wot a wimp....
Message:
..well said, Moldy, I say!
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Date: Thurs, Apr 12, 2001 at 00:02:46 (GMT)
From: Moldy Warp
Email: None
To: Nige
Subject: Not myself, I hope!
Message:
x
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Date: Thurs, Apr 12, 2001 at 00:13:39 (GMT)
From: Nige
Email: None
To: Moldy Warp
Subject: No.. night-night.(nt)
Message:
x
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Date: Wed, Apr 11, 2001 at 22:46:33 (GMT)
From: Ulf
Email: None
To: Peter
Subject: Last message
Message:
Hi Peter
My wishing well to you , but if you , yourself have
left all the brainwashing , you should know why people
response to your posting the way they do, and understand why.?

so you should stay, it will be good for all of us.

Ulf

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Date: Wed, Apr 11, 2001 at 22:37:08 (GMT)
From: gerry
Email: None
To: Peter
Subject: You're Welcome
Message:
One final message…

I had never wished to attack anyone on the forum, but gerry’s and others continued abusive remarks to me simply got too much.

You did pretty well in the mosh pit yourself, Pete. One of the scrappier mudslingers to ride into town in a while. Nice shootin', Cowboy.

I didn’t want to nor even ask to join the forum.

There's nothin' to join, Tex. No dues, no voting, no meetings but we do have GetSmart (tm) cards if you'd like one.

Nor did I think that I would have to prove myself to anyone there.

You proved yerself real good, there pahdner.

My initial contact with ex-premie org was through a simple request for any information regarding an alleged incident that might have happened at Spencer Place ashram in Leeds. Any further contact was primarily only by way of waiting around for any response to my request.

OK I stayed out of that thread.

I soon though naively allowed myself to be drawn into the forum, and to make one or two what I thought were innocent remarks.

'Naive and innocent.' Now Tex, that hardly describes you. You're a roping doping cattle rustler from way back, I suspect...

Although I quickly realised that nothing is innocent or simple on the forum and that I had seriously underestimated what is an established and deeply rooted culture of the ex-premie.org forum.

You smarten up just a tad too late, old son. And stop shootin off about 'cults' and 'culture.' Yer makin' me nervous.

However, the level of fear and the malicious abuse expressed about me surprised me (although hardly any of you know me). And that I might be an EV monitor or some premie infiltrator left me reeling from the waves of its paranoia.

Were those 'amber' waves of paranoia you was seein' boss, I get those Sometimes too.

Having been away for so long from the influence of M and DL/EV, or for that matter from any kind of premie, ex’s or not. This time has allowed me to develop a more open and trusting approach to my life. Sorry if this is naïve! I had seriously forgotten how the years of brainwashing, the extremely narrow thinking, and a total loss of individualism removes a sense of humanness from those who have grovelled at those lotus feet.

Well quit yer grovellin' and join us then! We have a nightly hoedown and only an occasional shootout but that gives folks somethin' to talk about and they like that.

I was unprepared for the vicious onslaught from the small but very aggressive group of self appointed ‘guardians’. But which left me, and to be honest, with the overriding and disturbing impression that Maharaji still has a powerful hold over the minds of many who now refer to themselves as ex’s? Clearly I did not understand their horror regarding any reference to certain key words, or the paranoia culture of infiltration, or the almost cult-like protectionism of each other.

Sadly all of this showed me that the influence M is still alive in their minds, be it now in his reversed role of the demonised alter ego Captain Rawat; but alive and well all the same and still got his clutches into so many ex’s. And since I had to struggle for years to remove such a powerful influence from my own, I do not intend to allow its insidious nature back into my own mind.

Now of all the cockimanie ideas you got Doc, this one takes the blue ribbon. The corrupt Captain Rawat is the reality and 'Maharaji' is the alter ego. Get that one straight, even if you miss all the rest, pappy.


I thank you for a very big lesson.

Peter

Well good byes are always sad, I done a few myself but, you know, the good thing is they aint always so final. YOU'LL BE BACK !!!

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Date: Wed, Apr 11, 2001 at 22:25:37 (GMT)
From: Kelly
Email: karen@ringrose.org.uk
To: Peter
Subject: Last message, I hope not.
Message:
Hi Peter,
I haven't read all your posts and the reposts, I haven't had time. I just want to say that as a recent ex, I have seen some extraordinary behaviour here. I have also been blessed with a large portion of cowardice, so have never had to suffer the slings and arrows etc! However, I have noticed that those who stay the course, usually end up older and wiser! For what that's worth.

I DID notice your original post and I sincerely hope that doesn't get lost in the general turbulence. I am working in this general area, so, if you would care to e-mail me, I'd be pleased to hear from you.
All the best
Kelly

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Date: Thurs, Apr 12, 2001 at 01:49:36 (GMT)
From: Disculta Darling
Email: None
To: Kelly
Subject: Me too nt
Message:
dpuhfd
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