Forum V: Archive
Compiled: Fri, Apr 20, 2001 at 21:26:27 (GMT)
From: Apr 08, 2001 To: Apr 17, 2001 Page: 5 Of: 5


Robert Setton -:- Yes new here, but have looked around a bit now -:- Tues, Apr 10, 2001 at 17:38:09 (GMT)
__ AJW -:- It's that tune again -:- Wed, Apr 11, 2001 at 10:00:09 (GMT)
__ __ Bazza -:- I must haved missed him in the tunnel -:- Wed, Apr 11, 2001 at 16:49:57 (GMT)
__ __ __ Robert Setton -:- It was in an open field -:- Fri, Apr 13, 2001 at 06:14:37 (GMT)
__ __ __ AJW -:- Bazza, I read my name and my mind went blank... -:- Wed, Apr 11, 2001 at 23:18:04 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Bazza -:- Anth you vain bugger -:- Thurs, Apr 12, 2001 at 02:52:06 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ AJW -:- You should see me in drag Bazza. -:- Thurs, Apr 12, 2001 at 08:42:28 (GMT)
__ __ Robert Setton -:- It's that tune again -:- Wed, Apr 11, 2001 at 14:49:10 (GMT)
__ __ __ AJW -:- It's that tune again -:- Wed, Apr 11, 2001 at 23:10:58 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Robert Setton -:- It's that tune again -:- Thurs, Apr 12, 2001 at 18:29:18 (GMT)
__ Bin Liner -:- So you don' t feel you ' ve been betrayed... -:- Tues, Apr 10, 2001 at 20:23:05 (GMT)
__ __ Bryn -:- So you don' t feel you ' ve been betrayed... -:- Tues, Apr 10, 2001 at 20:43:25 (GMT)
__ Jim -:- It's like thanking Typhoid Mary for a little kiss -:- Tues, Apr 10, 2001 at 18:22:50 (GMT)
__ __ Robert Setton -:- not quite Jim -:- Thurs, Apr 12, 2001 at 17:41:16 (GMT)
__ __ __ Jim -:- How does your post answer mine? -:- Thurs, Apr 12, 2001 at 23:03:51 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Robert Setton -:- very simply I thought... -:- Fri, Apr 13, 2001 at 04:20:16 (GMT)
__ Disculta Darling -:- Re the 'All-night word diner' -:- Tues, Apr 10, 2001 at 17:49:56 (GMT)
__ __ Robert Setton -:- Re the 'All-night word diner' -:- Wed, Apr 11, 2001 at 15:42:08 (GMT)

GetSmart -:- GetSmart cards are ready -:- Tues, Apr 10, 2001 at 01:46:52 (GMT)
__ GetSmart -:- Hey you vain and winey loosers -:- Wed, Apr 11, 2001 at 00:17:23 (GMT)
__ PatC -:- My card stinks - I'm so vain -:- Tues, Apr 10, 2001 at 18:33:25 (GMT)
__ __ Nige -:- You're not the only one, Pat.. -:- Tues, Apr 10, 2001 at 22:40:41 (GMT)
__ __ __ PatC -:- I was looking at your pic , Nigel, and.... -:- Tues, Apr 10, 2001 at 23:44:50 (GMT)
__ Jim -:- Can Laurie and I share one? -:- Tues, Apr 10, 2001 at 17:26:34 (GMT)
__ __ Jim -:- Thanks, GetSmart, but they didn't work -:- Tues, Apr 10, 2001 at 23:30:20 (GMT)
__ __ __ Jim -:- Ok, it worked. Amaroo here I come! (nt) -:- Tues, Apr 10, 2001 at 23:41:55 (GMT)
__ Katie H -:- Wow! -:- Tues, Apr 10, 2001 at 11:43:40 (GMT)
__ Nigel -:- Can U use my pic below? wanna getsmart too.. -:- Tues, Apr 10, 2001 at 04:09:37 (GMT)
__ __ GetSmart ® -:- Nigel, your card is ready -:- Tues, Apr 10, 2001 at 06:12:31 (GMT)
__ __ __ Babs -:- But shouldn't it say 'Nigel and Friend?' nt -:- Tues, Apr 10, 2001 at 20:45:53 (GMT)
__ Joy -:- GetSmart cards are ready -:- Tues, Apr 10, 2001 at 02:00:32 (GMT)
__ __ Katie Darling -:- GetSmart cards are ready -:- Tues, Apr 10, 2001 at 08:04:35 (GMT)
__ Babs -:- They are fabulous, dahling -:- Tues, Apr 10, 2001 at 01:59:21 (GMT)
__ __ janet -:- I'm laminating mine! flash it at EPO nights--ID -:- Tues, Apr 10, 2001 at 06:42:42 (GMT)

Elan Vital -:- Response to cq -:- Mon, Apr 09, 2001 at 23:56:56 (GMT)
__ cq -:- Response to the totally anonymous cq -:- Tues, Apr 10, 2001 at 17:50:40 (GMT)
__ such -:- Amaroo - the sequel to Outback 'Survivor' (nt -:- Tues, Apr 10, 2001 at 15:42:03 (GMT)
__ Richard -:- Thank you EV -:- Tues, Apr 10, 2001 at 00:27:19 (GMT)
__ __ Roger eDrek -:- ah, yes, Winters... -:- Tues, Apr 10, 2001 at 01:08:40 (GMT)
__ __ __ eb -:- ah, yes, Winters... -:- Tues, Apr 10, 2001 at 01:16:22 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ janet -:- as I understood it,Norwood Winters... -:- Tues, Apr 10, 2001 at 06:59:18 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Roger eDrek -:- thanks, Janet. -:- Tues, Apr 10, 2001 at 19:23:59 (GMT)

G -:- Amaroo - latest update -:- Mon, Apr 09, 2001 at 19:57:45 (GMT)
__ G -:- Amaroo 'reggo' to close 15 April -:- Tues, Apr 10, 2001 at 03:32:46 (GMT)
__ __ janet -:- April 15th-why is that date familiar? uhhhhh -:- Tues, Apr 10, 2001 at 07:16:05 (GMT)
__ __ __ Nigel -:- Of course! - well spotted janet... -:- Tues, Apr 10, 2001 at 12:35:08 (GMT)
__ __ Nigel -:- Standard Aussie thing... -:- Tues, Apr 10, 2001 at 05:13:32 (GMT)
__ __ __ sam -:- Nigel, it's already had the abbrevi -:- Wed, Apr 11, 2001 at 09:39:21 (GMT)
__ __ __ cq -:- so 'knowledge' becomes 'nolly' ??? -:- Tues, Apr 10, 2001 at 19:47:07 (GMT)
__ __ __ G -:- 'milking credibility-by-Oz-association' -:- Tues, Apr 10, 2001 at 15:19:02 (GMT)
__ __ __ Tony(Aussi Ji) -:- Actually we call it rego.You're right Nigel. -:- Tues, Apr 10, 2001 at 07:05:41 (GMT)
__ such -:- Passes? We don't need no stinkin' entry passes -:- Tues, Apr 10, 2001 at 00:36:37 (GMT)
__ JHB -:- How can they afford it??? -:- Mon, Apr 09, 2001 at 22:09:28 (GMT)
__ Cynthia -:- ...but I've got my plane ticket booked....n/t -:- Mon, Apr 09, 2001 at 20:11:24 (GMT)
__ Joe -:- Amaroo - latest update -:- Mon, Apr 09, 2001 at 20:10:45 (GMT)
__ __ G -:- 'very long delays' -:- Mon, Apr 09, 2001 at 22:43:23 (GMT)
__ __ __ Connie -:- agree......EV speak always needs translation nt -:- Mon, Apr 09, 2001 at 23:30:14 (GMT)
__ __ Bazza -:- So much for automation -:- Mon, Apr 09, 2001 at 20:39:16 (GMT)
__ __ Marianne -:- Entry Denied! -:- Mon, Apr 09, 2001 at 20:23:11 (GMT)
__ __ __ Cynthia -:- ...but I used my elderly mother's credit card.... -:- Mon, Apr 09, 2001 at 21:37:55 (GMT)
__ __ __ Tony(Aussi Ji) -:- Hey Marianne.. -:- Mon, Apr 09, 2001 at 20:50:28 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Sivan/Sam -:- sounds good , tone(nt) -:- Wed, Apr 11, 2001 at 09:53:06 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Marianne -:- Hey Tony -:- Mon, Apr 09, 2001 at 20:57:11 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Tony(Aussi Ji) -:- Hey marianne.And so it cmae to pass -:- Tues, Apr 10, 2001 at 07:12:51 (GMT)
__ __ __ Selene -:- Entry Denied! -:- Mon, Apr 09, 2001 at 20:29:29 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ G -:- Gotta PAY! -:- Mon, Apr 09, 2001 at 22:02:50 (GMT)
__ __ Cynthia -:- ...and I lost my Smart Card...oh geeze...n/t -:- Mon, Apr 09, 2001 at 20:13:21 (GMT)

cq -:- the 'cream of what is given' plus a pinch of salt -:- Mon, Apr 09, 2001 at 19:43:56 (GMT)
__ Mercedes -:- Thanks Chris n/t -:- Mon, Apr 09, 2001 at 20:25:54 (GMT)

cq -:- Cough ... splutter ... read this at your peril: -:- Mon, Apr 09, 2001 at 18:05:40 (GMT)
__ Sandy -:- To cq -:- Tues, Apr 10, 2001 at 15:09:28 (GMT)
__ __ cq -:- I was quoting EV there, Sandy -:- Tues, Apr 10, 2001 at 20:24:17 (GMT)
__ __ __ Sandy -:- Evolooshun -:- Wed, Apr 11, 2001 at 00:09:06 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ cq -:- Evolution is about species, not individuals -:- Wed, Apr 11, 2001 at 15:42:05 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Sandy -:- Evolution is about species, not individuals -:- Thurs, Apr 12, 2001 at 15:55:12 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Jim -:- Actually, Chris, it's the other way around -:- Wed, Apr 11, 2001 at 17:45:11 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ cq -:- Not so, Jim - check this: -:- Thurs, Apr 12, 2001 at 16:06:54 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Jim -:- No, that's not what I meant -:- Thurs, Apr 12, 2001 at 19:30:37 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Steve Quint -:- Check The Dictionary -:- Thurs, Apr 12, 2001 at 16:45:20 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ cq -:- check the link, Steve - -:- Thurs, Apr 12, 2001 at 17:08:12 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Steve Quint -:- Check Some Decent Dictionaries -:- Thurs, Apr 12, 2001 at 18:54:28 (GMT)
__ Jean-Michel -:- The Rich are the Real Sufferers: People Weekly 74 -:- Tues, Apr 10, 2001 at 07:52:58 (GMT)
__ __ cq -:- cough, splutter ... apoplexy ... -:- Tues, Apr 10, 2001 at 18:06:04 (GMT)
__ Gregg -:- Spinning psychobabble -:- Tues, Apr 10, 2001 at 00:25:03 (GMT)
__ __ Nigel -:- True - and even if he was... -:- Tues, Apr 10, 2001 at 01:06:37 (GMT)
__ Elan Vital -:- Cough ... splutter ... read this at your peril: -:- Mon, Apr 09, 2001 at 23:40:15 (GMT)
__ Nigel -:- Written by Turner, perhaps..? (nt) -:- Mon, Apr 09, 2001 at 19:33:21 (GMT)
__ Cynthia -:- ''Quiet Family Retreat...Leaking Bungalow...' -:- Mon, Apr 09, 2001 at 18:52:16 (GMT)
__ __ DeProGram Anand Ji -:- ''Quiet Family Retreat...Leaking Bungalow...' -:- Mon, Apr 09, 2001 at 21:47:57 (GMT)
__ __ cq -:- shortcircuiting the thinking process -:- Mon, Apr 09, 2001 at 19:09:34 (GMT)
__ __ __ Cynthia -:- shortcircuiting the thinking process -:- Mon, Apr 09, 2001 at 20:09:25 (GMT)
__ Bazza -:- Malibu Mansion -:- Mon, Apr 09, 2001 at 18:28:41 (GMT)
__ __ Selene -:- Malibu Mansion -:- Mon, Apr 09, 2001 at 18:55:53 (GMT)
__ __ __ Bazza -:- Funnier still if I was the videographer -:- Mon, Apr 09, 2001 at 20:43:08 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ janet -:- go for it baz. pitch it to the brass. -:- Tues, Apr 10, 2001 at 08:17:32 (GMT)

Katie Darling -:- Spiritual abandonment -:- Mon, Apr 09, 2001 at 17:28:14 (GMT)
__ Way -:- Spiritual abandonment -:- Mon, Apr 09, 2001 at 18:59:29 (GMT)
__ __ Katie Darling -:- Spiritual abandonment -:- Tues, Apr 10, 2001 at 22:58:34 (GMT)
__ __ __ Way -:- Spiritual abandonment -:- Wed, Apr 11, 2001 at 14:46:29 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Katie Darling -:- Spiritual abandonment -:- Wed, Apr 11, 2001 at 20:09:47 (GMT)
__ Mercedes -:- betrayal -:- Mon, Apr 09, 2001 at 18:43:01 (GMT)
__ __ Cynthia -:- Personal Betrayal and Abandonment... -:- Mon, Apr 09, 2001 at 20:02:05 (GMT)
__ __ __ Katie Darling -:- Phosphorescent green moss -:- Mon, Apr 09, 2001 at 21:50:16 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Mercedes -:- Phosphorescent green moss -:- Mon, Apr 09, 2001 at 23:56:01 (GMT)

david -:- helping loved ones break free -:- Mon, Apr 09, 2001 at 16:31:48 (GMT)
__ such -:- thought I was in for 'life': cost me a kid + wife -:- Tues, Apr 10, 2001 at 20:00:35 (GMT)
__ Bazza -:- Have to decide what you want -:- Mon, Apr 09, 2001 at 23:17:02 (GMT)
__ __ David -:- Have to decide what you want -:- Tues, Apr 10, 2001 at 00:25:52 (GMT)
__ Kev -:- helping loved ones break free -:- Mon, Apr 09, 2001 at 19:25:15 (GMT)
__ __ David -:- helping loved ones break free -:- Mon, Apr 09, 2001 at 20:49:09 (GMT)
__ cq -:- I hope yours isn't to be another relationship that -:- Mon, Apr 09, 2001 at 18:56:30 (GMT)
__ Way -:- How much does she know? -:- Mon, Apr 09, 2001 at 18:33:01 (GMT)
__ __ David -:- How much does she know? -:- Mon, Apr 09, 2001 at 21:01:49 (GMT)
__ __ __ Way -:- So I married a guru lover... -:- Mon, Apr 09, 2001 at 21:13:40 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ David -:- So I married a guru lover... -:- Mon, Apr 09, 2001 at 21:18:24 (GMT)
__ Susan -:- another pitch for a book -:- Mon, Apr 09, 2001 at 16:35:56 (GMT)
__ __ Susan -:- link -:- Mon, Apr 09, 2001 at 16:37:26 (GMT)
__ __ __ Daivd -:- link -:- Mon, Apr 09, 2001 at 16:42:10 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Selene -:- relationships with premies -:- Mon, Apr 09, 2001 at 18:03:16 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ David -:- relationships with premies -:- Mon, Apr 09, 2001 at 21:14:02 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Katie Darling -:- Empathy -:- Mon, Apr 09, 2001 at 22:07:00 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ David -:- Empathy -:- Mon, Apr 09, 2001 at 22:42:53 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Selene -:- easily influeced is what I was -:- Mon, Apr 09, 2001 at 22:05:03 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ David -:- easily influeced is what I was -:- Mon, Apr 09, 2001 at 22:50:29 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Selene -:- that's great David -:- Mon, Apr 09, 2001 at 23:01:18 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ David -:- that's great David -:- Tues, Apr 10, 2001 at 00:27:57 (GMT)

Helen -:- My theory of mind/body stress of cult followers -:- Mon, Apr 09, 2001 at 12:07:59 (GMT)
__ la-ex -:- great post-similar to one I psted a few weeks ago -:- Tues, Apr 10, 2001 at 22:15:06 (GMT)
__ __ Helen -:- haven't heard of either (nt) -:- Tues, Apr 10, 2001 at 22:55:03 (GMT)
__ Katie H -:- Helen ***BEST OF FORUM**** for your two posts -:- Tues, Apr 10, 2001 at 11:46:44 (GMT)
__ __ Helen -:- thanks Katie -:- Tues, Apr 10, 2001 at 23:02:59 (GMT)
__ __ __ Katie H. -:- Helen, YES and thanks! I have a full mailbox (nt) -:- Thurs, Apr 12, 2001 at 12:02:04 (GMT)
__ Joe -:- Helen, really excellent. -:- Tues, Apr 10, 2001 at 03:33:08 (GMT)
__ __ Helen -:- Helen, really excellent. -:- Tues, Apr 10, 2001 at 22:57:06 (GMT)
__ Roger eDrek -:- Great post, indeed, it takes me back -:- Mon, Apr 09, 2001 at 23:26:29 (GMT)
__ __ Helen -:- Roger -:- Tues, Apr 10, 2001 at 23:27:10 (GMT)
__ Helen -:- My theory--more -:- Mon, Apr 09, 2001 at 12:11:40 (GMT)
__ __ Selene -:- a keeper should be part of the site -:- Mon, Apr 09, 2001 at 18:14:00 (GMT)
__ __ Mark -:- A BEST **** -:- Mon, Apr 09, 2001 at 17:25:22 (GMT)
__ __ __ Helen -:- Selene/mark -:- Mon, Apr 09, 2001 at 21:27:17 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Mark -:- Selene/mark/Holy Smokes -:- Tues, Apr 10, 2001 at 04:43:22 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Selene -:- that movie is SO BAD it's almost good -:- Tues, Apr 10, 2001 at 00:54:33 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Mark -:- that movie is SO BAD it's almost good -:- Wed, Apr 11, 2001 at 01:21:05 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Richard -:- I liked the initiation juju and sex scenes also -:- Wed, Apr 11, 2001 at 15:22:46 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Helen -:- that movie is SO BAD it's almost good -:- Tues, Apr 10, 2001 at 01:22:41 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Selene -:- deprogrammers -:- Tues, Apr 10, 2001 at 02:06:12 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Mercedes -:- deprogrammers -:- Tues, Apr 10, 2001 at 05:01:22 (GMT)
__ __ AJW -:- Excellent posts Helen. -:- Mon, Apr 09, 2001 at 16:58:14 (GMT)
__ __ __ Helen -:- Excellent posts Helen. -:- Mon, Apr 09, 2001 at 21:09:01 (GMT)
__ __ Katie Darling -:- Yes, yes, yes -:- Mon, Apr 09, 2001 at 14:02:00 (GMT)
__ __ __ Helen -:- Yes, yes, yes -:- Mon, Apr 09, 2001 at 21:13:38 (GMT)
__ __ __ Mercedes -:- Yes, yes, yes -:- Mon, Apr 09, 2001 at 15:21:34 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ G -:- Yes, yes, yes -:- Mon, Apr 09, 2001 at 17:07:50 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Helen -:- G/Mercedes -:- Mon, Apr 09, 2001 at 21:33:56 (GMT)
__ __ Nigel -:- Great post, Helen - everyone read. -:- Mon, Apr 09, 2001 at 13:37:03 (GMT)
__ __ __ Helen -:- Great post, Helen - everyone read. -:- Mon, Apr 09, 2001 at 21:18:06 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Nigel -:- thanks - I've had mailbox problems -:- Mon, Apr 09, 2001 at 23:12:58 (GMT)
__ __ __ Richard -:- Great post, Helen - some thoughts -:- Mon, Apr 09, 2001 at 17:01:33 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Helen -:- Great post, Helen - some thoughts -:- Mon, Apr 09, 2001 at 21:22:23 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Helen -:- a question for Richard -:- Mon, Apr 09, 2001 at 21:43:50 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Richard -:- Precipitation not Participation -:- Tues, Apr 10, 2001 at 00:18:15 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Helen -:- Precipitation not Participation -:- Tues, Apr 10, 2001 at 01:29:56 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Lesley -:- Yes, 'crystal analysis', Helen -:- Mon, Apr 09, 2001 at 20:49:21 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Helen -:- great to hear it,, Lesley! -:- Mon, Apr 09, 2001 at 21:24:11 (GMT)

Peter -:- Pity rather than anger? -:- Sun, Apr 08, 2001 at 21:58:23 (GMT)
__ cq -:- On reclaiming your ability to feel anger - -:- Mon, Apr 09, 2001 at 20:43:24 (GMT)
__ __ moldy warp -:- cq- very good points nt -:- Mon, Apr 09, 2001 at 23:33:55 (GMT)
__ Peter -:- Pity rather than anger, perhaps not! -:- Mon, Apr 09, 2001 at 19:07:29 (GMT)
__ Katie H. -:- Anger is OK, but we are not all angry -:- Mon, Apr 09, 2001 at 12:15:12 (GMT)
__ __ Bin Liner -:- Well said Katie , I'm only sporadically ... -:- Mon, Apr 09, 2001 at 20:23:49 (GMT)
__ Bryn -:- Pity rather than anger? -:- Mon, Apr 09, 2001 at 10:47:13 (GMT)
__ Nigel -:- Pity rather than anger? - not a matter of choice -:- Mon, Apr 09, 2001 at 08:40:47 (GMT)
__ AJW -:- No more Mr Nice Guy. -:- Mon, Apr 09, 2001 at 07:35:41 (GMT)
__ __ PatC -:- Is Part 2, No more Mr Nice Guy, online yet? NT -:- Mon, Apr 09, 2001 at 07:51:37 (GMT)
__ __ __ AJW -:- Yes, Brian put it up a couple of days ago. -:- Mon, Apr 09, 2001 at 08:02:18 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Connie -:- Just read part 2 Anth -:- Mon, Apr 09, 2001 at 08:54:41 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ AJW -:- Hi Connie. -:- Mon, Apr 09, 2001 at 17:07:10 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Mercedes -:- Part 2 -:- Mon, Apr 09, 2001 at 16:11:48 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Selene -:- wasn't it strange to go back? -:- Mon, Apr 09, 2001 at 19:18:48 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ PatC -:- Thanks, Anth. Yes, that's my bedtime reading -:- Mon, Apr 09, 2001 at 08:08:47 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ PatC -:- Okay, just read Part Two and you're still -:- Mon, Apr 09, 2001 at 08:38:43 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ AJW -:- Shit. -:- Mon, Apr 09, 2001 at 09:47:37 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Roy -:- anth the mench part 2 - a double ovation nt -:- Wed, Apr 11, 2001 at 05:26:20 (GMT)
__ JHB -:- Pity rather than anger? -:- Mon, Apr 09, 2001 at 04:34:33 (GMT)
__ Gregg -:- Pieta (Mata Ji holding Maharaj Ji?) -:- Mon, Apr 09, 2001 at 02:26:18 (GMT)
__ Bazza -:- Disagree with you Peter -:- Mon, Apr 09, 2001 at 00:08:09 (GMT)
__ PatC -:- Pity rather than anger? The high road! -:- Sun, Apr 08, 2001 at 23:32:02 (GMT)
__ Lesley -:- Pity rather than anger? -:- Sun, Apr 08, 2001 at 23:01:04 (GMT)
__ Kev -:- Pity rather than anger? -:- Sun, Apr 08, 2001 at 22:37:52 (GMT)
__ __ Selene -:- I don't feel sorry for him -:- Sun, Apr 08, 2001 at 23:18:54 (GMT)
__ __ __ Bazza -:- Good point selene -:- Mon, Apr 09, 2001 at 00:18:00 (GMT)


Date: Tues, Apr 10, 2001 at 17:38:09 (GMT)
From: Robert Setton
Email: None
To: Bazza and JWB
Subject: Yes new here, but have looked around a bit now
Message:
I take your point Barry and have actually been getting to know things a little better here. I've just spent a few hours in the 'journey's' section of this site and finished with the very long first part of the story by Anth. I was absolutely fascinated and very impressed by the writing and delivery, good stuff. I was around in UK in the early Reigate days, though someone like him would have been a god to me. The thought of being so close so often used to put us prols into a complete daze (that reminded us we were nowhere near as 'clear' and therefore 'unworthy' to be in such a hallowed postion). His story reminded me strongly of what utter shit we were full of then and I feel some sorrow for being such a stupid sodding pratt with my parents during my years in UK. One time, during a premie house fundraiser (in Catford, near Palace of P) I took the 'housefather' Clive Holmes, a good friend, down to my parents house in the country where I proceeded to persuade mother that some of our old family portraits were much better off as jumble sale items than lying deep in the bowels of the attic. She (smartly) gave me some rubbish pictures in huge fancy gold frames so I left with my premie pride glowing. Clive was cool and gave her just enough 'satsang' to keep me happy without freaking her out. My parents came to Alexandra Palace for Guru Puju in 73 but were very put out when he was half an hour late onstage and there was nowhere comfortable for them to sit amongst hundreds of stoned dazed (but standing) hippies. They became tired after an hour and left. Me? I was doing personal 'security' at the darshan line right in front of him, what did I care?! I was young, arrogant, blind and stupid, perfecting faking spiritual humility because it might get me something in return.
I'm quite tired now after my marathon read but will endevour to put you into the picture about me as I go along. I don't have a lot of time for netsurfing but will write. I had some great times and was very lucky too (sorry, graced) but was never in a solid, paid position near the hub of the wheel. My journey was good for me, but is boring compared with Anth's and probably many others, I look forward to reading the second half. Many journeys have been the same and it is a great gift to be able to express it with such candor, honesty and most of all humour, like all good Brit humour it's true, black, naughty, irreverent and we as a nation have been reared on it!
Who's side am I on? Well, everybody's. I still have love and respect for M and enjoy K. But my eyes are open, not closed and I also totally, truly, enjoy reading stuff like I have tonight, you can draw your own conclusions about what that might mean. I have friends in all categories (prems, exes, never beens, never wantobes, maybes and fanatical religious idiot zealots) and hope I always will. My rule has always been, no matter what school, institution, club, cult or group you're in - break as many of the rules as much of the time as possible. No job has lasted more than six months, no house more than 10 years. If there's one thing I thank M for it's the reminder that I'm only here for a pissy little minute before it's off to the next crazy world and new lifeform.
But right now I must away to bed or the wife will start to wonder what the hell I'm doing starting to stay up all hours. Is this what you people are starting? An ALL night word diner for alphabetholics?!
regards,
Robert
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Date: Wed, Apr 11, 2001 at 10:00:09 (GMT)
From: AJW
Email: None
To: Robert Setton
Subject: It's that tune again
Message:
Thanks for your kind comments about my Journey. I've posted the second part now, so you can go back and read that too if you want. It explains how my attitude changed after I quit the Captains cult.

It made me laugh to read that you endowed me godlike status at the time. I used to do the same to premies who I thought were 'closer to the lotus feet' too.

Glad you made it out Robert. (I always hear the theme tune for the Great Escape at moments like this)

Anth, da da da der, da da der.

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Date: Wed, Apr 11, 2001 at 16:49:57 (GMT)
From: Bazza
Email: None
To: AJW/Robert
Subject: I must haved missed him in the tunnel
Message:
..or was he Steve McQueen trying to jump his Harley over the barbed wire?

Anyway Anth, when did Robert say he was out of the cult? I guess I should be polite and address this to Robert. Robert, when did you say you were out of the cult?

Maybe I need to pay more attention in class, because so far all I recall reading is your quiet admiration of maharaji, a few reminiscences from the old Reigate days, bit of name dropping and your general 'approval' of the issues raised on the forum.

Examples:

I still have love and respect for M and enjoy K

From what I've seen of M, I believe that if he became personally involved [in the child abuse situations] he would be very sweet, humble and highly sensitive to their suffering, that's just my observation from past meetings. He can be very difficult and annoying and knowallish but all in all he's a pretty cool guy most times and that's a conservative view.

I have been offended by what I've seen as his 'arrogant aloofness' and then been told what he has to get done in the next half hour...and bowed my head in shame.

But nowhere have you actually come out and said you are no longer a cult member. Forgive me if I'm mistaken, but I think the Escape Committee should blow out the candles and put the cake back in the fridge until you clarify things a bit.

PS Are you still living in England? (I'm a Brit too), I know most the people you mentioned, plus a bunch more in Reigate.

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Date: Fri, Apr 13, 2001 at 06:14:37 (GMT)
From: Robert Setton
Email: None
To: Bazza
Subject: It was in an open field
Message:
And since when did I have to prove myself to you until considerd 'worthy' enough to talk with? I think you've got it the wrong way around here Bazza. I seem to remember starting this conversation, so if you wish to join in - it is you who has to prove to me that YOU are worth talking to. That's how the view looks from this window anyway.

Remember, I don't have a clue who you are either.

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Date: Wed, Apr 11, 2001 at 23:18:04 (GMT)
From: AJW
Email: None
To: Bazza
Subject: Bazza, I read my name and my mind went blank...
Message:
...not to mention how far flattery goes with me.

Robert really liked my Journey Bazza, that makes him an instant cyber-pal as far as I'm concerned. I got the impression he'd left the cult, but you're quite right, I went back and read his post again, and he may well indeed still be a premie.

But it doesn't matter. As I've already made friends with him, I'll charm him out gently.

You've got to look on the bright side haven't you?

Anth the eternal optical illusion

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Date: Thurs, Apr 12, 2001 at 02:52:06 (GMT)
From: Bazza
Email: None
To: AJW
Subject: Anth you vain bugger
Message:
Acting like a blonde!

Bazza who has absolutely nothing against blondes!

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Date: Thurs, Apr 12, 2001 at 08:42:28 (GMT)
From: AJW
Email: None
To: Bazza
Subject: You should see me in drag Bazza.
Message:
I think Robyn's got a photo somewhere- being British- you understand these matters.

Anthia the tart.

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Date: Wed, Apr 11, 2001 at 14:49:10 (GMT)
From: Robert Setton
Email: None
To: AJW
Subject: It's that tune again
Message:
Ok Anth. I'll tackle the next episode. Interesting, isn't it, how we all looked 'up' the ladder at those higher and greater than us, constantly demeaning our own life experience, and ALL this in our stupid imagination! I'm keen to find out how I became so full of fear and so lacking in confidence that I would make heros out of turkeys. Of course, just to confuse the issue, in amongst the babbling critters there were some birds of paradise. I was already walking wounded at the beginning of DLM. Ten years of public school made us into arrogant asses on the one hand, defeated wimps on the other. We finally emerged as a dangerous and unpredictable mix of the two.
Talking of my friends...
You wouldn't happen to know whereabouts of Charlie Mcrow, Charlie Donaldson, Naomi and Clive Holmes, Peter Dawson, Bullent Accar, Milky Cole...? there's many familiar faces in my head, I'll have to search my memory for names. Unfortunately with some of the dearest I have no idea what their surnames are. There were some truly remarkable characters around in the early 70's. I remember before one festival Mark from the Catford PH took my new BarcleyCard and announced..'We're all getting new suits'. Several hundred pounds later we returned with new clothes and exotic pot plants for the house. I thought it was a huge joke at the time. My parents cut the card up and paid the bill. I lost my inheritance, they could see exactly where that was headed, ahem.
regards,
Robert
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Date: Wed, Apr 11, 2001 at 23:10:58 (GMT)
From: AJW
Email: anthginn@yahoo.com
To: Robert Setton
Subject: It's that tune again
Message:
Hi Robert,

I sometimes wonder how I got hooked. Maybe because:

It was fashionable at the time to have a guru.
My brains were scrambled by LSD.
I was young and naive.
I was brainwashed.

I've got some news of some of the people you mentioned, and could probably put you in touch with a couple of them. I'd prefer to conduct personal gossip by email if that's ok with you Robert. So drop me a line and I'll fill you in on the dirt.

Anth the wait till I tell you what's happened to old...

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Date: Thurs, Apr 12, 2001 at 18:29:18 (GMT)
From: Robert Setton
Email: ramfish@one.net.au
To: AJW
Subject: It's that tune again
Message:
Fantastic, I'd like to email them, there's some wonderful girls I 'knew' ahem, but unfortunately the relationship did not require me to remember mere details like names and addresses. Sod it! And the blokes, I'd be more than happy to share a few pints of ale with some of those mad delightful clowns. Premie men had more 'image' to let go of perhaps, so we hammed it up to become gentle smiling androcolites issuing a haze of loving energy towards every prick we ever met. Dammit boys, we lost our manhood! No, actually mine went in fits and came back in starts.

I guess you'd be fairly busy with other things right now so I won't bang on. Any emails adds of the London based early 70's prems would be most engaging. A friend showed me a big photo of my girlfriend and I sitting in (almost!) the front row at Trafalgar square after the huge DLM peace march through the city. The place was JAMMED... We poured for hours over the photo, scanning the hundreds of smiling faces in a frenzy of dizzy gossip and longing. I will have the thing scanned proper and send it around, bloody spectacular we were!
Yes, email if you wish, excellent. Like you and other veteran cybersurfers I have a busy inbox now, so please just hang if there's a gap. Some really interesting things have happened since cyberspace came good, I have some very serious relationships with people I've never met and may never meet. It's absolutely incredible, the greatest communication revolution the world has ever seen. Tried to make money out of it (by selling crappy Skybiz websites) then just got back to the issue - communication.
I'll look forward to your next. The pub analogy in the thread above was a classic, it was great to see your humour again after the very stirring 2nd journey output. It's tone was more serious and I could feel the strain. Still, excellent writing and every episode we explore in words lets us see a bit more of ourselves escape.
regards,
Robert ..who should know when to get the fuck off the net... and into bed.

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Date: Tues, Apr 10, 2001 at 20:23:05 (GMT)
From: Bin Liner
Email: None
To: Robert Setton
Subject: So you don' t feel you ' ve been betrayed...
Message:
....at a level that is difficult to come to terms with , let alone explain to others , & virtually impossible to put into words .

Oh lucky man !

Rawat's still got you by the balls though .

Good luck with your next ' lifeform ' , I thought that was a type of ladies undergarment.

Don't get your knickers in a twist .


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Date: Tues, Apr 10, 2001 at 20:43:25 (GMT)
From: Bryn
Email: None
To: Bin Liner
Subject: So you don' t feel you ' ve been betrayed...
Message:
A person who is on everyones side can't be betrayed.The classic benign, lofty, posture of the wounded christian. I was that soldier.
love Bryn
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Date: Tues, Apr 10, 2001 at 18:22:50 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Robert Setton
Subject: It's like thanking Typhoid Mary for a little kiss
Message:
If there's one thing I thank M for it's the reminder that I'm only here for a pissy little minute before it's off to the next crazy world and new lifeform.

What if that's not true? What if there are no further 'cray worlds', no 'new lifeforms'? It's called religion, Robert. You've been had.

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Date: Thurs, Apr 12, 2001 at 17:41:16 (GMT)
From: Robert Setton
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: not quite Jim
Message:
Like I said to Anth, my rule has always been, no matter what school, institution, club, cult or group you're in - break as many of the rules as much of the time as possible.
Add religion to the list.
No religion can contain someone who is steadfast in their fight to remain a free sprit. I believe that.
Regards,
Robert
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Date: Thurs, Apr 12, 2001 at 23:03:51 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Robert Setton
Subject: How does your post answer mine?
Message:
Sorry, Robert, but you've confused me. I was challenging your belief in future lives and the like. You come back with what a wild and crazy rule-breaking kind of guy you are. What's the connection?
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Date: Fri, Apr 13, 2001 at 04:20:16 (GMT)
From: Robert Setton
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: very simply I thought...
Message:
Jim, I was responding to the 'you've been had' line. This is one of the unfortunates with e-mails, misunderstandings are common. Belief in future lives? No not really. I strongly believe that once the power is cut - the hard drive and every piece of software, every folder and every file crashes for good and then exist only in (living) people's memory. That's why I reckon, be selfish, be very selfish about having a good time, but WITHOUT harming others in that process. I think that's what we're all learning to do, with varying degrees of success. As a certain 'mahatma' will find out if he's been having a lend of innocents, every action has it's reaction, and time is no hinderence to the great Karmic wheel.

Sadly, I'm not that wild anymore. Too many court cases began to bore me, and the police obsession with always having to win no matter whether they're right or not, is exhausting. I won my last case, representing myself before a district court judge. After my testimony he gave me a token grilling, pondered and then threw the whole case out. I nearly applied for a place on the bar.
regards,
Robert

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Date: Tues, Apr 10, 2001 at 17:49:56 (GMT)
From: Disculta Darling
Email: None
To: Robert Setton
Subject: Re the 'All-night word diner'
Message:
Well, yes.

Been having that two hours in the middle of the night insomnia recently, and I go to my computer and - well - if I start doing some actual WORK it might keep me awake, so I use the forum as a sleep aid. Except it's often quite stimulating.

Be warned!

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Date: Wed, Apr 11, 2001 at 15:42:08 (GMT)
From: Robert Setton
Email: None
To: Disculta Darling
Subject: Re the 'All-night word diner'
Message:
Quite agree yes! I find it goes the other way around too. I go to bed and start thinking all sorts of stuff to say to people who are online, if it get really interesting in my head I force myself up to post, or at least write it down. The later I stay online the more wired I become, it's a great boon to be able to talk with people of very similar age and experience.
Extraordinary, this modern world, I think we find the internet talks stimulating because it's so alive compared with TV and printed conversations. To talk in semi real time is very different than reading a newspaper, magasine or book. Almost as good as real time talk and sometimes less stressful. Still, nothing like a good story to end the day with and with that in mind I think I'll take another look at the journeys.
regards,
Robert
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Date: Tues, Apr 10, 2001 at 01:46:52 (GMT)
From: GetSmart
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: GetSmart cards are ready
Message:
As we at GetSmart strive to be as synchronized as Élan Vital, the Getmart cards you ordered quite awhile ago were delayed for technical reasons. Actually, in the spirit of truthfulness, the leaderless GetSmart team forgot.

Here they are. If your photo looks like you've driven coast to coast non-stop on nothing but tofu and trail mix, it's because that is the quality of the photo provided. If you want to send another, there are instructions on the GetSmart page. If you haven't yet ordered one, ditto.

Here are the GetSmart cards.

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Date: Wed, Apr 11, 2001 at 00:17:23 (GMT)
From: GetSmart
Email: None
To: GetSmart
Subject: Hey you vain and winey loosers
Message:
Just wait til we add webcams later this year.

Revised and additional GetSmart Cards

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Date: Tues, Apr 10, 2001 at 18:33:25 (GMT)
From: PatC
Email: None
To: GetSmart
Subject: My card stinks - I'm so vain
Message:
I wish you had used my current pic instead of that drippy flower-child wimp that I used to be. Oh well - am I the only person who thinks they look better older than when young?

The rest are terrific though. Thanks. No wonder you've been too busy to post lately.

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Date: Tues, Apr 10, 2001 at 22:40:41 (GMT)
From: Nige
Email: None
To: PatC
Subject: You're not the only one, Pat..
Message:
..who thinks they look better now than then.

Nige

(who too was a drippy teenage flower child wimp with terrible clothes and bad hair, before becoming a drippy punk-rocker wimp with not-quite-so-terrible clothes and not so much bad hair etc. It must be personal evolution or something...)

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Date: Tues, Apr 10, 2001 at 23:44:50 (GMT)
From: PatC
Email: None
To: Nige
Subject: I was looking at your pic , Nigel, and....
Message:
I suddenly realized I could see the boy beneath the man's face and thought. ''I know that face. '' I probably saw you at one of the Euro Rawat Guru Shows in the 70s.

The thing I enjoyed the most about those shows was people-watching. Just sitting outside smoking joints and watching and enjoying the wonderful energy and enthusiasm of the early premies. Then I'd fall asleep during the Very Rev's rants.

Yes, I think you're much better looking now too - in fact strikingly so. Beauty sure is character. Explains why the urug looks like a super-market caramel pudding - all sugar and fluff with a few toxic additives.

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Date: Tues, Apr 10, 2001 at 17:26:34 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: GetSmart
Subject: Can Laurie and I share one?
Message:
It's not exactly in the ashram manual but I sent you a pic of both of us. (Oh yeah, she's gonna LOVE this .......)
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Date: Tues, Apr 10, 2001 at 23:30:20 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Thanks, GetSmart, but they didn't work
Message:
All I get is the frame, no pic.

Hell, do I have to pay for this? Shit!

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Date: Tues, Apr 10, 2001 at 23:41:55 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Ok, it worked. Amaroo here I come! (nt)
Message:
ffffff
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Date: Tues, Apr 10, 2001 at 11:43:40 (GMT)
From: Katie H
Email: None
To: GetSmart
Subject: Wow!
Message:
You are truly talented (not kidding). I have to admit that I like Brian's the best (snicker!) Thanks!
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Date: Tues, Apr 10, 2001 at 04:09:37 (GMT)
From: Nigel
Email: nigel@redcrow.demon.co.uk
To: GetSmart
Subject: Can U use my pic below? wanna getsmart too..
Message:
The one in the Latvian thread? Or should I send it?
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Date: Tues, Apr 10, 2001 at 06:12:31 (GMT)
From: GetSmart ®
Email: None
To: Nigel
Subject: Nigel, your card is ready
Message:
GetSmart ®
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Date: Tues, Apr 10, 2001 at 20:45:53 (GMT)
From: Babs
Email: ralphie@ralphiescafe.com
To: GetSmart ®
Subject: But shouldn't it say 'Nigel and Friend?' nt
Message:
the wine bottle, of course
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Date: Tues, Apr 10, 2001 at 02:00:32 (GMT)
From: Joy
Email: None
To: GetSmart
Subject: GetSmart cards are ready
Message:
Gee, thanks, GetSmart, I feel so, well, synchronized now! Love my Miami hot pink background, too. Do I need this to get into Latvian night (otherwise known as NW EPO night)? Will I experience long delays otherwise?

Jai ho, brother,
Always looser rather than tighter,
Joy

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Date: Tues, Apr 10, 2001 at 08:04:35 (GMT)
From: Katie Darling
Email: None
To: Joy
Subject: GetSmart cards are ready
Message:
Wow, thanks!

I don't know what to say. I have always wanted one. This is a very, very very very special moment for me. I, too will laminate it and take it everwhere. Will it work in Sears?

Did anyone else find that their computer crashed when looking at Pat Conlon's (gorgeous) card?

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Date: Tues, Apr 10, 2001 at 01:59:21 (GMT)
From: Babs
Email: ralphie@ralphiescafe.com
To: GetSmart
Subject: They are fabulous, dahling
Message:
Is it okay to laminate?
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Date: Tues, Apr 10, 2001 at 06:42:42 (GMT)
From: janet
Email: None
To: Babs
Subject: I'm laminating mine! flash it at EPO nights--ID
Message:
lets see those EV trolls crash our soirées without their bona fide hogrown ex cards.
I've been musing on what to put on the backs.
maybe the krishna crown in a red circle slashed thru?
or each of us, our own head, with the krishna crown on it?
or maybe morph together the pie-in-face shot with one of him in the crowwn?
or one cut together of gooberjee in one of his immaculate 44 extra extra short suits, sitting on his gold toilet with his trousers pooled around his feet? we have so many of him sitting on chairs, it should be easy to find one that fits perfectly on a gold toilet. with the crown on, too? cognac in the one hand,doobie in the other?
or maybe with a wad of cash in his hand, getting ready to wipe himself??

we DO need to find something for the backs of the cards, y know

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Date: Mon, Apr 09, 2001 at 23:56:56 (GMT)
From: Elan Vital
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: Response to cq
Message:
Dear cq or whoever you anonymous poster happens to be:

The totally and completely cultless Elan Vital is as pleased as punch that, finally, some correct and updated information on Maharaji and his message is being communicated among the outrageous lies and hurtful comments that are regularly hurled at Maharaji, and Elan Vital, by anonymous people like you on the internet. But even in the wake of such cruetly, Elan Vital perseveres.

These aAnonymous people, we might add, should have their motives questioned. In fact, we at Elan Vital spend nearly all our time questioning those motives, and find it completely and utterly unnecessary to address the allegations, when the motives of those alleging such things are in doubt, question, and/or subject to implied slander.

While we have ooodles of time to question motives, we have no time whatsoever to address any of the criticisms, since once we finish impuning motives, we must set about promoting Maharaji and his message and have no time for anything else. Right now, we are spending countless hours in an attempt to scare the crap out of our members to get them to cough up money in advance to go to Amaroo, since, so far, only 33 people have reserved by paying, we mean donating, $800 for the opportunity to pay thousands of dollars more to sleep in the Australian outback. We thought it was brilliant to present the prospect of flying thousands of miles and getting stuck in the middle of nowhere without an entry pass, should make them go into hock if necessary to get the money to us by the 15th. God, we're good!

Nevertheless, we appreciate your re-printing our clear, completely straight-forward and thorough answers to questions frequently asked, from out internet website. We have gone so far as to decide NOT to sue you to within an inch of your life for copyright infringement. That's just the kind of ethical and caring organization we are, something we have learned in a synchronized fashion though leaderless work groups and the practice of technique number 5.

The meterial you reprinted proves that, far from living a luxurious lifestyle, Maharaji has been living, for 17 years, in a delapitated, leaking bungalow in one of the poorest sections of Malibu, which hardly has room for his 36 luxury vehicles and his multi-million dollar watch collection. Why, space was so tight, Mahararji almost found it necessary to move the watch collection and several jetliners to his delapidated house in the United Kingdom, or to his delapidated estate in India, and even possibly the unbelievable slum Maharaji inhabits when in Australia.

Yes, Maharaji's selfless willingness to practically camp out up in the hills of Malibu to save money so he can selflessly give the experience of knowledge to people is legendary, which has been recognized by the legislatures of several states, and the City Council of Detroit. Why, in Detroit, Maharaji was also given flowers and a cream pie for dessert. That's how impressed Detroit was. They don't just give throw those things at anyone, you know.

Also, we have observed that Maharaji doesn't live all that well, what with having to deal with California power outages and the possibility of fires. We were discussing this with Maharaji just the other day, as Maharaji landed his helicopter on his $8 million yacht, and he emphasized it is a difficult, almost spartan life he lives. Why, at times even food is a problem as anyone can tell by looking at Maharaji. But, being the light-hearted, enigmatic guy he is, Maharaji always has his little, bitty, thimball fill of cognac after his dinner of rice and beans. He is just so enigmatic. Who knows what he will do next! Why, we gave up trying to predict in 1971.

Moreover, dealing with the delalpidated house is one of the reasons Maharaji is so busy. He is constantly climbing up onto the roof repairing leaks and that takes lots of time. In fact, that is the reason he is installing the helicopter pad on his yacht, so he can more quickly get back to repair the roof, before heading off to save mankind from maya and misery on his $40 million Gulfstream Jet, made necessary because flying Commerical Airliners First Class is worse than hell, which Maharaji said to Michael Dettmers one time.

People do not understand that flying first class is a terrible hardship for Maharaji, which is something Elan Vital is sure no one else would put up with. Can we really expect Maharaji to do that? How could you be so cruel to even think that?! Denying Maharaji the basic human necessities, like a $40 million Gulfstream would just be criminal.

Thank you for your interest. If you seek further information, please contact Pauline Premie at the Public Relations Department of Elan Vital, which is not a cult, since Elan Vital differs from a cult in a number of ways displayed on a complicated and professional-looking matrix on our website at www.elanvital.org. Elan Vital and Maharaji believe strongly, that if you put anything into a chart or bar graph, at least some people will think it's important and true. We are sure you will, too.

Pauline can be reached at ElanVital@wearenotacultwereallyaren't.org.

In Synchronized Leaderless Participation,

Elan Vital

CHILD SEXUAL MOLESTATION IS OUT LOWEST PRIORITY SINCE 1971

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Date: Tues, Apr 10, 2001 at 17:50:40 (GMT)
From: cq
Email: None
To: Elan Vital
Subject: Response to the totally anonymous cq
Message:
Thanks ever so for clarifying all that, EV person.

How on earth did I ever get to think that he 'lived the high life'? How right you are to paint a much truer picture of the selfless sacrifice that he personifies so enigmatically. Move over Mother Theresa!

Oh, and thank you for today's extract from your Master Non-Leader and well-known spelling mistake Maharatji, which I faithfully reproduce below (and in a humble attempt to demonstrate how synchronised with your message I really am, I won't be sending you a bill for propagating his message).

Here it is, from the bottom of the woodpile (mind the spiders and snakes, now):

.
.
.
.
Edited excerpt, Maharaji in Durban, 13th October 2000


'I have a heart that persists in being
fulfilled. But my mind is inquisitive. It
wanders, it searches and probes. To it,
there are false hopes and it buys into
them, there are false dreams and it
accepts them. It goes, it pushes in
that direction. These dreams are
awfully nice, but they never tell what
lies behind each rock. You know when
you have wood piled up for a long
time, you don't go messing in that pile.
Why? Scorpions can live there. Things
you may not like. Snakes could be
living there. People come, innocently pick up a piece of
wood, and get bitten. What lies behind the log, I don't
know. What lies behind the rock, I don't know. But the
inquisitive in me says, 'Find out.' Why? Why should I
make this life's endeavor to find out if there is a
scorpion under the rock? Why? It's not bothering me,
I'm not bothering it, fine.

How simple it is that I have been given a heart which
says, no, look for the truth, look for the reality, look for
the simplicity in your life. Look to be fulfilled. To be
content. To find a state of being in which you are free.
That's real freedom. '

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Date: Tues, Apr 10, 2001 at 15:42:03 (GMT)
From: such
Email: None
To: Elan Vital
Subject: Amaroo - the sequel to Outback 'Survivor' (nt
Message:
nt
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Date: Tues, Apr 10, 2001 at 00:27:19 (GMT)
From: Richard
Email: None
To: Elan Vital
Subject: Thank you EV
Message:
Like the patron saint of IHQ Denver, Norwood Winters used to say, 'Mraahgeeee.... you blow my mind!'
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Date: Tues, Apr 10, 2001 at 01:08:40 (GMT)
From: Roger eDrek
Email: drek@oz.net
To: Richard
Subject: ah, yes, Winters...
Message:
What was his story?
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Date: Tues, Apr 10, 2001 at 01:16:22 (GMT)
From: eb
Email: None
To: Roger eDrek
Subject: ah, yes, Winters...
Message:
I remember him lying in the street in front of the Divine Shelter back in '74 to prove his faith in gooomraji. Whatever happened to Winters?
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Date: Tues, Apr 10, 2001 at 06:59:18 (GMT)
From: janet
Email: None
To: eb
Subject: as I understood it,Norwood Winters...
Message:
was a larimer street wino (back in the days when that was skid row--before larimer square got urban renewal money and was transformed into a yupscale tourist trap in the 80's) that the denver premies found derelict and plastered in the gutter and gave satsang to, and invited to come to the lotus feet and promised him that maharaji would save him. he came with them and did indeed clean up and receive knowledge, and his dedication was sincere, as far as his wino'd brain could present. He made himself into a clown to entertain the premie children, but when he wasnt at satsang or service, he usually lived in godforsaken rooms in denver's gloomier haunts.
He had a room upstairs at 1333 High street when I lived in the basement and my friend had the next room down the hall, as did a premie couple next to her.

He was lonely and forever yearning for a woman to take a shine to him. I personally was a party to an emergancy rescue in the mid 70's, along with 2 or 3 other premies, who took him to university hospital ER to have his stomach pumped, to bring him back from an attempted suicide. He had taken an overdose of pills he was on. I was later told by a brother who lived around him that it had to do with being jilted by a young premie female he had gotten his hopes up about.

I lost touch when i moved from denver to miami for the DECA years, but i understand he died quite some years back. Maybe others can fill in more details.

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Date: Tues, Apr 10, 2001 at 19:23:59 (GMT)
From: Roger eDrek
Email: drek@oz.net
To: janet
Subject: thanks, Janet.
Message:
Yeah, he was a character. Those were the daze.
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Date: Mon, Apr 09, 2001 at 19:57:45 (GMT)
From: G
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: Amaroo - latest update
Message:
From www.amaroo.org - Latest Updates:

'Registration for Amaroo 2001 to close on 15th April

Volunteers working at local registration offices around the world will be leaving to attend the Amaroo 2001 event and registration will close by midnight GMT 15th April.

All those planning to attend the event must register by 15th April. It will be greatly appreciated if participants register before this deadline to allow for confirmation of amphitheater and campsite spaces.

Those arriving without registration may experience very long delays and risk not being able to obtain an entry pass in time for the event.'

Well isn't that special?

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Date: Tues, Apr 10, 2001 at 03:32:46 (GMT)
From: G
Email: None
To: all
Subject: Amaroo 'reggo' to close 15 April
Message:
That's how www.enjoyinglife.org puts it under 'What's New'.

'Reggo - as the Aussies call it - for Amaroo 2001 will be closing next weekend. This announcement was just posted on www.events.elanvital.org'

Isn't that wording just so cool, so hip, so sauve?

This is another tactic that con men use, they act that way to put you off balance.

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Date: Tues, Apr 10, 2001 at 07:16:05 (GMT)
From: janet
Email: None
To: G
Subject: April 15th-why is that date familiar? uhhhhh
Message:
oh, NOW I REMEMBER:

THAT'S THE DATE BY WHICH ALL U S CITIZENS HAVE TO FILE THEIR INCOME TAXES TO THE INTERNAL REVENUE SERVICE! AND OF COURSE, OUR LITTLE HEDONIST WOULD NEVER DO ANYTHING SO FOOLISH AS TO DENY HIMSELF A MOMENTS PLEASURE BY SAVING ANY OF HIS OBSCENE INCOME AGAINST A FUTURE DAY WHEN THE TAXES ARE DUE TO BE PAID. AFTER ALL--THIS IS THE GUY WHO SMUGLY ASSURED US FROM HIS THRONE IN MIAMI THAT'MONEY IS LIKE A TOILET--YOU HAVE TO KEEP IT FLUSHED, OR IT BEGINS TO STINK'.

SO OBVIOUSLY THEY ARE COUNTING ON THE REGISTRATION 'TAKE' TO COVER THE TAXES THEY NEED TO PAY BY APRIL 15TH.

ANYONE GOT A BETTER EXPLANATION?

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Date: Tues, Apr 10, 2001 at 12:35:08 (GMT)
From: Nigel
Email: nigel@redcrow.demon.co.uk
To: janet
Subject: Of course! - well spotted janet...
Message:
..and just shows what a load of bull was EV's claim that the early registration deadline was about processing applications in time for the festival - which for a presumably computerised transaction makes no sense at all.

I think the lying is so automatic for some of these cultsters they hardly realise they're doing it, let alone feel any shame.

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Date: Tues, Apr 10, 2001 at 05:13:32 (GMT)
From: Nigel
Email: None
To: G
Subject: Standard Aussie thing...
Message:
Abbreviate everything - much as they do in Liverpool, UK. Example: reef shoes are 'reefos', board shorts are 'boardies', sunglasses are 'sunnies'. So yes, Aussies probably do call registration 'reggo'.

And very cool I'm sure for EV to pick up on it - just as they've been milking credibility-by-Oz-association in all their pre-Amaroo publicity. Surprised if they don't start calling M Margie...

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Date: Wed, Apr 11, 2001 at 09:39:21 (GMT)
From: sam
Email: -
To: Nigel
Subject: Nigel, it's already had the abbrevi
Message:
ation. Remember it used to be Guru Maharaji + (Ji ?).
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Date: Tues, Apr 10, 2001 at 19:47:07 (GMT)
From: cq
Email: None
To: Nigel
Subject: so 'knowledge' becomes 'nolly' ???
Message:
as in 'Noilly Prat'?

Make mine a small one.

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Date: Tues, Apr 10, 2001 at 15:19:02 (GMT)
From: G
Email: None
To: Nigel
Subject: 'milking credibility-by-Oz-association'
Message:
Good wording, they would probably like to call him the wizard of Oz, but then that might get people thinking.

Around the time I 'received Knowledge', I heard someone refer to him as the wizard of Oz, it was before a 'festival', and we were 'off to see the wizard'. It's too bad I didn't think about it more.

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Date: Tues, Apr 10, 2001 at 07:05:41 (GMT)
From: Tony(Aussi Ji)
Email: parisw@ozemail.com.au
To: Nigel
Subject: Actually we call it rego.You're right Nigel.
Message:
we abbreviate everything you can imagine over here.I sat down one time to write out as many abbreviarions as I could.It was a very lomg list.
eg.Swimming costume--Cossies
Bar-b-que--barby
Australians--aussies
Breakfast---Brekky
underpants---undies
Football---footy
beautiful---beauty
Aluminium boat---tinny
can of beer---tinny
bricklayer---bricky
sunglasses---sunnies
boat users---boaties
Kookaburras---kookies
great big rocks---goolies
testicles---goolies
Television---tele

And so the list goes on.There was a movie in the sixties about Aussies called,aptly enough,'they're a weird mob'

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Date: Tues, Apr 10, 2001 at 00:36:37 (GMT)
From: such
Email: None
To: G
Subject: Passes? We don't need no stinkin' entry passes
Message:
Yeah, give your hard-earned money to someone who knows how to REALLY Spend it, then spend your entire annual vacation in transit, standing in lines, camping out with the bugs and snakes, using a portable latrine, and listening to the Rev. Jim Jones Rajneesh in the flesh. [Incidentally, where's his lil' bitty tent and porta-potty?]

Passes? We don't need no stinkin' passes! Tex, let's cut 'em off at 'the pass'!

I can almost picture it in my lil' crystal ball now: I blew my whole bank account to go camping and get sunburnt at some desolate spot near Ipswich, Queensland, and all I got was this lousy eiydhiwndy t-shirt!! ['Hey, dude, what's with the stupid shirt, anyway?' 'Uh, I think it means 'even in your dumbest hours I will not deceive you'. ...You know, like it's an 'in' joke, or somethin'. ...Duh, I think you gotta be what's called an X-rated premie or PAM to grok the fullness of the double entendre meaning there.' ...'What's a 'Premie', you ask? No-no, it's not like a 'premature baby', dude! Oh sh--, NOT this conversation again...]

Nope, I'll definitely pass... The deja vu flashbacks are plenty already. Ozzies et al catching some waves at Surfer's Paradise, or Tahiti, Maui, Rincon, Biarritz (or even surfing on-line) sounds like a better bet! thanka very much...

Peace and lentils,

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Date: Mon, Apr 09, 2001 at 22:09:28 (GMT)
From: JHB
Email: None
To: G
Subject: How can they afford it???
Message:
How can the volunteers working for EV afford to go to Amaroo? If they can, then how did they get the jobs for EV? They obviously have been holding back from complete devotion. And if they are employed full-time by EV, then EV funds are being misused by paying such high salaries.

Elan Vital, you should sack anyone who works for you in whatever capacity who can afford to go to Amaroo!

John
the friend of Elan Vital

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Date: Mon, Apr 09, 2001 at 20:11:24 (GMT)
From: Cynthia
Email: None
To: G
Subject: ...but I've got my plane ticket booked....n/t
Message:
nt
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Date: Mon, Apr 09, 2001 at 20:10:45 (GMT)
From: Joe
Email: None
To: G
Subject: Amaroo - latest update
Message:
Those arriving without registration may experience very long delays and risk not being able to obtain an entry pass in time for the event.'

How long could it possibly take to issue an 'entry pass?'

It sounds to me like a threat to get people to send in their moola in advance. I can't imagine if somebody showed up paying the exhorbitant costs to attend that desolate 'event,' that Elan Vital wouldn't take their money, US currency of course.

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Date: Mon, Apr 09, 2001 at 22:43:23 (GMT)
From: G
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: 'very long delays'
Message:
It seems that they will say 'We're not saying we won't let you in, we're just having very long delays, it's your fault for not registering (and PAYING) before.' (except maybe if premie ji has $$$$$$$$). I guess they figure that if a premie isn't willing to pay now, they won't be willing to pay later. They don't want to admit that they are going against their supposed 'admission is free to all events' policy, which is probably required by law given that EV is officially a charity, so they say 'very long delays'. And they except premies not to see through this bullshit. It's insulting.

It reminds me of the election fraud that has occured which has descriminated against blacks and other minorities, like 'your name is not on the list.' or 'we're understaffed'.

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Date: Mon, Apr 09, 2001 at 23:30:14 (GMT)
From: Connie
Email: None
To: G
Subject: agree......EV speak always needs translation nt
Message:
grrrr
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Date: Mon, Apr 09, 2001 at 20:39:16 (GMT)
From: Bazza
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: So much for automation
Message:
I thought all the hype about the need for a Smart Card at Amaroo was intended to obviate the need for Entry Passes. Why don't they just leave an 'Honor System' donation box by the electronic turnstile - don't they trust their fellow humble devotees?
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Date: Mon, Apr 09, 2001 at 20:23:11 (GMT)
From: Marianne
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: Entry Denied!
Message:
Oh, they're afraid of last minute gate crashing by the exes from Latvian Night Ipswich.
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Date: Mon, Apr 09, 2001 at 21:37:55 (GMT)
From: Cynthia
Email: None
To: Marianne
Subject: ...but I used my elderly mother's credit card....
Message:
Hi Marianne,

I'm feeling impish today. Finally, a few days in the 50's!

Sounds to me like the Amaroo Event is a big 'ole flop, and I'd bet a penny Capt. Rawat's mad as shit!

Good. Participation down. Good....

How are you?

Love,
Cynthia

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Date: Mon, Apr 09, 2001 at 20:50:28 (GMT)
From: Tony(Aussi Ji)
Email: parisw@ozemail.com.au
To: Marianne
Subject: Hey Marianne..
Message:
Hi Marianne,
Where does this term Latvian come from?I thought Latvians' were natives of Latvia.
A latvian night out sounds like a thoroughly good 'piss up' of exes.Can you enlighten me please?(No,I won't be needing four techniques for this kind of enlightenment)

Cheers Tony.

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Date: Wed, Apr 11, 2001 at 09:53:06 (GMT)
From: Sivan/Sam
Email: -
To: Tony(Aussi Ji)
Subject: sounds good , tone(nt)
Message:
RSVP (TICK)
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Date: Mon, Apr 09, 2001 at 20:57:11 (GMT)
From: Marianne
Email: None
To: Tony(Aussi Ji)
Subject: Hey Tony
Message:
Ok, here it is. Latvian Night started when a group of nasty and wily British exes decided to get together and plot the end of the known universe. They decided to do this after reading each others' posts on the forum. They met at the Latvian Social Welfare Club in London, where John (JHB) then lived. For some reason, they were able to keep the bar open all night (even after, legend has it, hamzen barfed all over everyone and everything). John lived at the Latvian Club because he is Latvian! So, the ensuing ex-premie get togethers all came from these humble beginnings, and came to affectionately be known as 'Latvian Nights'.

Does that answer your question?

Marianne

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Date: Tues, Apr 10, 2001 at 07:12:51 (GMT)
From: Tony(Aussi Ji)
Email: parisw@ozemail.com.au
To: Marianne
Subject: Hey marianne.And so it cmae to pass
Message:
that the Latvian's would meet to barfe(sorry I digress)
Thank You Marianne I have got it now..

Cheers Tony.

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Date: Mon, Apr 09, 2001 at 20:29:29 (GMT)
From: Selene
Email: None
To: Marianne
Subject: Entry Denied!
Message:
Whatever their reasoning it would be a mean thing to do to premies who have gone to a lot of effort and expense to get there. It's pressure tactics IMO.
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Date: Mon, Apr 09, 2001 at 22:02:50 (GMT)
From: G
Email: None
To: Selene
Subject: Gotta PAY!
Message:
They don't want any premie thinking they're going to get in for free, they don't want any premie showing up saying they can't afford the outrageous fees and want to attend anyway. So they'll have guru goons checking for proof of purchase.
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Date: Mon, Apr 09, 2001 at 20:13:21 (GMT)
From: Cynthia
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: ...and I lost my Smart Card...oh geeze...n/t
Message:
nt
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Date: Mon, Apr 09, 2001 at 19:43:56 (GMT)
From: cq
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: the 'cream of what is given' plus a pinch of salt
Message:
From a site entitled Psychology of Spiritual Sects, the following could be of interest to many. It's not particularly well-written, but the author appears to speak from experience, and the conclusion of what he has to say rings very true for me:
.
.
.
the following is item no. 1: (check the link for the other chapters - headings given below)
.
.
.
'features of psychological influence most common to spiritual movements'
.
.
1. Type of members.

There are many types of members, each with its own motivation.

First of all there are the ones who have been moved to do so out of a genuine spiritual aspiration, prepared to sacrifice.

Other members may have been searching for a truth behind the dreadful aspects of life around them and an escape therefrom.

People who wrestle with a psychological problem seek (unconsciously) a key or solution to it in a particular teaching or discipline.

Then there are those that did so out of a feeling of isolation and loneliness. Lack of true companionship may have made them long to be taken up in a fraternity of kindred souls.

People will be drawn to a brotherhood whose aims are within their reach of comprehension and nearest to their hearts. A religious background may make them veer towards a sect that accomodates nostalgia, like the Jehova Witnesses.

For younger people it may be an escape from having to enter into a harsh materialistic society. They are in an idealistic life-cycle, prepared to give up their study and career to a worthy cause.

Some older people can never make up their minds and wander from one cause to another.

Finally there are those who wrestle with a father/mother complex. The childhood's need for such archetypal figure may persist in later life. It is transferred subsequently to the master, who then holds sway over him/her.

The weaker the individual's independance, the more will he be tied to the group.
.
.
.


Contents include:
1. The outlook/aspiration of their members
2. The authority of the leader/founder
3. Shared belief in a scripture, revelation, or sayings.
4. Uniqueness of the movement.
5. Salvation through baptism, initiation, or conversion.
6. Belief in a prediction/prophecy
7. Belief versus intellect/Secrets
8. Common practice of a ritual
9. Sacrifice. Financial secrecy, favours to the rich
10. Unquestioning leadership, reprehensible behaviour amongst members.
11. Fear of expulsion

.
.

Enjoy the read, and I hope you find it worth it too.

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Date: Mon, Apr 09, 2001 at 20:25:54 (GMT)
From: Mercedes
Email: None
To: cq
Subject: Thanks Chris n/t
Message:
iii
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Date: Mon, Apr 09, 2001 at 18:05:40 (GMT)
From: cq
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: Cough ... splutter ... read this at your peril:
Message:
just found the following on EV's site, which I think has been added to recently. Does it sound like spin to you too?

from:http://www.elanvital.org/behind_the_message.htm (emphases added where I've chosen to)

.
.
.

'In 1974, when being driven up the Pacific Coast Highway in Malibu,
he saw a dilapidated structure atop an isolated mountain and it caught his eye.
The leaking bungalow, built as a weekend retreat by a Hollywood director, was
some way off from the celebrated beach-side community. Maharaji was
unaware of the prestige of the area, but the beauty of the landscape was
breathtaking and gave him a sense of refuge from the very adult
responsibilities that he had to face on a daily basis.

Eleven months after their marriage, Maharaji and Marolyn had their first
child, a girl they named Premlata. Three more children followed, Hans,
Dayalata and Amar.

The family still live in the same house, now rebuilt and added to. Maharaji
relishes it as his quiet family retreat, when taking a break from his busy
schedule of relentless travel and tours.

.
.
.
...

Maharaji’s passion for flying is led by his commitment to regularly travel the
world in order to bring his message to as broad an audience as possible. A jet
is leased for this purpose as the schedule is often demanding, and it has
proven virtually impossible to conveniently and safely construct it around
commercial flight schedules
.

.
.
.
...

His successful lifestyle does not fit with general concepts of what a
teacher or master should be like. He is very open about the fact that for him
there is absolutely no conflict between enjoyment of the things of this world
while also pursuing a path of inner fulfillment, provided you are clear about
where your priorities lie. For him there is a big distinction between enjoying
material comforts and becoming attached to them. However when you take a
closer look, he certainly doesn't lead what could be termed a high life.

.
.
.
...


Despite the many occurrences which have affected him over the years, he
relentlessly trusts in life and people and this is perhaps his most enigmatic
trait. He appears to be very much a believer in the 'analysis leads to paralysis'
syndrome
and instead encourages people to recognize their actions, learn
from them and move on. He comments: 'The whole process of learning is
like climbing a set of stairs and you know that once you have left that
step, if you go back to it you're not going anywhere. You're always
leaving the steps and each is important, and in the process of
continuing on you have to leave the steps behind. That’s what growth
is, that’s what evolving is.

.
.
.
...

What Maharaji will do next is anyone’s guess. One thing is sure, and that is that
his commitment to continue to teach is unquestioned and his constant effort
to find better and better ways to do this is relentless. Maharaji is the child
guru who didn’t burn out or fade away
and that, combined with a total
dedication to his students
and a total disregard for ever doing what is
expected
, is the main reason why the 'world' may never fully accept or reject
him.'

.
.
.
.
.
.
.

Well, there you go folks. What a rugged individualist. The main reason the world 'may never fully accept him' - hah! Wake up EV. The main reason the world ain't ever going to accept him is because he is a confidence trickster, and lives the life of one.

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Date: Tues, Apr 10, 2001 at 15:09:28 (GMT)
From: Sandy
Email: None
To: cq
Subject: To cq
Message:
'Despite the many occurrences which have affected him over the years, he relentlessly trusts in life and people and this is perhaps his most enigmatic trait. He appears to be very much a believer in the 'analysis leads to paralysis' syndrome and instead encourages people to recognize their actions, learn
from them and move on. He comments: 'The whole process of learning is like climbing a set of stairs and you know that once you have left that step, if you go back to it you're not going anywhere. You're always leaving the steps and each is important, and in the process of continuing on you have to leave the steps behind. That’s what growth is, that’s what evolving is.' -from cq's post above

cq,

I can certainly relate to the analysis-paralysis thing and the climbing a set of stairs being like evolution. I think those two word pictures are accurate and universal. The thing is, at least for me, when I am climbing the stairs of my own evolution, if I happen to step on the toes of someone else who is also on their stairway to their evolution, I am quick to apologize and excuse myself for trespassing on them, and take responsibility for any damage I am responsible for and try to make it right. I consider that part of my evolution too, not just how high and fast I can get on my staircase. That is the part that irks me, not that shit has happened to premies at the hands of officials in EV/DLM, for shit happens everywhere to everyone at some point in time. But how it was dealt with - or rather not dealt with - is my point of contention. And I am not some goody-two-shoes, I just think that if we all took more care with each other and if more care was taken with cases like Susan's and Abi's when they happened, there would not be such a groundswell of opposition now.

Sandy

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Date: Tues, Apr 10, 2001 at 20:24:17 (GMT)
From: cq
Email: None
To: Sandy
Subject: I was quoting EV there, Sandy
Message:
I was quoting EV there, Sandy. I hope you didn't think those were my sentiments.

As for 'analysis-paralysis' - the phrase (a new one on me, I must admit) - seems to suggest that any attempt at evaluation can only lead to stagnation. Not a very scientific stance to take, IMO. And as for M and EV's use of the word 'evolution' - quite frankly it appears to me to be totally inappropriate.
.
.
.
Evolution happens, regardless of whether we want it to.
Evolution oftens results in extinction of some species.
Evolution is not comparable to a 'staircase' - when you reach the top of a staircase, it can't take you any further upwards can it?

And, incidentally, though you might not relate to/identify with being a 'goody-two-shoes' - what is it that they 'evolve' into, if you don't mind me getting you to have another look at the belief-system you've apparently bought into?

.
.

Take care, now, and mind how y'go.

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Date: Wed, Apr 11, 2001 at 00:09:06 (GMT)
From: Sandy
Email: None
To: cq
Subject: Evolooshun
Message:
I was quoting EV there, Sandy. I hope you didn't think those were my sentiments. -cq

I know. -Sandy

As for 'analysis-paralysis' - the phrase (a new one on me, I must admit) - seems to suggest that any attempt at evaluation can only lead to stagnation. Not a very scientific stance to take, IMO. And as for M and EV's use of the word 'evolution' - quite frankly
it appears to me to be totally inappropriate. -cq

I believe the condition was included of 'too much' analysis leads to... -Sandy

Evolution happens, regardless of whether we want it to. -cq

Yes, but evolution is not merely time passing. It is a refinement of something, not just the aging of it. And evolution happens regardless of whether we want it to or not as you said, but we can choose to not evolve and go extinct by not cooperating with the powers that bring about evolution if we want to. So it's a party and we are all invited but everybody doens't make it there for one reason or another. -Sandy

Evolution oftens results in extinction of some species. -cq

Yeah, the ones who either can't or won't evolve. -Sandy

Evolution is not comparable to a 'staircase' - when you reach the top of a staircase, it can't take you any further upwards can it? -cq

Pick the metaphor that suits you. Can't you imagine a staircase, a spiraling circular one, that reminds you of the double helix itself, with no beginning or end, upon which all life plays out?
That's the kind of staircase I was thinking of. -Sandy

And, incidentally, though you might not relate to/identify with being a 'goody-two-shoes' - what is it that they 'evolve' into, if you don't mind me getting you to have another look at the belief-system you've apparently bought into? -cq

Oh, I don't know....goody-two-hip-boots? -Sandy

Take care, now, and mind how y'go. -cq

Thanks for the tip. -Sandy

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Date: Wed, Apr 11, 2001 at 15:42:05 (GMT)
From: cq
Email: None
To: Sandy
Subject: Evolution is about species, not individuals
Message:
Evolution is about species, not individuals.

Far better to use words such as 'development' or 'progress' when speaking of one person's lifetime.

(and let's face it, if Maharaji uses a buzz-word, it's bound to be questionable - it's just a pity he doesn't question it, either that or no-one around him's got the bottle to educate him about it).

Evolution? click here for an animated overview of where we all came from.

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Date: Thurs, Apr 12, 2001 at 15:55:12 (GMT)
From: Sandy
Email: None
To: cq
Subject: Evolution is about species, not individuals
Message:
It's about both species and individuals no matter what you say.
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Date: Wed, Apr 11, 2001 at 17:45:11 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: cq
Subject: Actually, Chris, it's the other way around
Message:
Evolution's very much about individuals, rather than species. Nice site though.
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Date: Thurs, Apr 12, 2001 at 16:06:54 (GMT)
From: cq
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Not so, Jim - check this:
Message:
I've heard you have an interest in these matters, Jim, so I'm surprised to hear you voicing such an opinion.

If I'm so wrong in my understanding of what constitutes evolution, could you perhaps point me to a site that would clarify things? Til then, mind if I stick with this description from Douglas J. Futuyma? (one of today's most respected evolutionary biologists), who says:


'The ontogeny of an individual is not considered evolution; individual organisms do not evolve. The changes in populations that are considered evolutionary are those that are inheritable via the genetic material from one generation to the next.'

- Douglas J. Futuyma, 'Evolutionary Biology', Sinauer Associates 1986

More at http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/evolution-definition.html

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Date: Thurs, Apr 12, 2001 at 19:30:37 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: cq
Subject: No, that's not what I meant
Message:
Chris,

I wasn't saying that evolution concerns the changes or adaptation, such as it is, in one individual's lifespan. That's certainly not evolution. Rather, it's the process of adaptive change of individuals from one generation to the next. Sure, the species evolves over time but it's only through the process of random mutation and natural selection of individuals within the species.

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Date: Thurs, Apr 12, 2001 at 16:45:20 (GMT)
From: Steve Quint
Email: the_avenger55@hotmail.com
To: cq
Subject: Check The Dictionary
Message:
All dictionaries I've consulted agree that evolution is, in it's most basic sense, a process of unfolding.

Steve

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Date: Thurs, Apr 12, 2001 at 17:08:12 (GMT)
From: cq
Email: None
To: Steve Quint
Subject: check the link, Steve -
Message:
which goes on to say:

quote:
.
.
.
Unfortunately the common definitions of evolution outside of the scientific community are different. For example, in the Oxford Concise Science
Dictionary we find the following definition:

'evolution: The gradual process by which the present diversity of plant and animal life arose from the earliest and most primitive organisms,
which is believed to have been continuing for the past 3000 million years.'

This is inexcusable for a dictionary of science. Not only does this definition exclude prokaryotes, protozoa, and fungi, but it specifically includes a term
'gradual process' which should not be part of the definition. More importantly the definition seems to refer more to the history of evolution than to
evolution itself. Using this definition it is possible to debate whether evolution is still occurring, but the definition provides no easy way of distinguishing
evolution from other processes. For example, is the increase in height among Caucasians over the past several hundred years an example of evolution?
Are the color changes in the peppered moth population examples of evolution? This is not a scientific definition.

Standard dictionaries are even worse.

'evolution: ...the doctrine according to which higher forms of life have gradually arisen out of lower..' - Chambers

'evolution: ...the development of a species, organism, or organ from its original or primitive state to its present or specialized state;
phylogeny or ontogeny' - Webster's

These definitions are simply wrong. Unfortunately it is common for non-scientists to enter into a discussion about evolution with such a definition in
mind. This often leads to fruitless debate since the experts are thinking about evolution from a different perspective. When someone claims that they
don't believe in evolution they cannot be referring to an acceptable scientific definition of evolution because that would be denying something which is
easy to demonstrate. It would be like saying that they don't believe in gravity!
.
.
.
end

One thing's for sure - the word 'evolve' means a lot of different things to different people.

My point to Sandy was meant to question the use of a high-falutin' word like 'evolving', when 'developing' or 'progressing' are far more clear, far more accurate, and far less pretentious.

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Date: Thurs, Apr 12, 2001 at 18:54:28 (GMT)
From: Steve Quint
Email: the_avenger55@hotmail.com
To: cq
Subject: Check Some Decent Dictionaries
Message:
All four dictionaries I've checked give very similar definitions. Webster's is representative:

Main Entry: evo·lu·tion
Pronunciation: 'e-v&-'lü-sh&n, 'E-v&-
Function: noun
Etymology: Latin evolution-, evolutio unrolling, from evolvere
Date: 1622
1 : one of a set of prescribed movements
2 a : a process of change in a certain direction : UNFOLDING b : the action or an instance of forming and giving something off : EMISSION c (1) : a process of continuous change from a lower, simpler, or worse to a higher, more complex, or better state : GROWTH (2) : a process of gradual and relatively peaceful social, political, and economic advance d : something evolved
3 : the process of working out or developing
4 a : the historical development of a biological group (as a race or species) : PHYLOGENY b : a theory that the various types of animals and plants have their origin in other preexisting types and that the distinguishable differences are due to modifications in successive generations
5 : the extraction of a mathematical root
6 : a process in which the whole universe is a progression of interrelated phenomena
- evo·lu·tion·ari·ly /-sh&-'ner-&-lE/ adverb
- evo·lu·tion·ary /-sh&-'ner-E/ adjective
- evo·lu·tion·ism /-sh&-'ni-z&m/ noun
- evo·lu·tion·ist /-sh(&-)nist/ noun or adjective

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Date: Tues, Apr 10, 2001 at 07:52:58 (GMT)
From: Jean-Michel
Email: None
To: cq
Subject: The Rich are the Real Sufferers: People Weekly 74
Message:
There is nothing new in EV's PR discourses ! Reads this ...

The rich are the real sufferers

from People Weekly Magazine Article - July 1, 1974.

The page will be improved, I'm expecting better scans and magazine's cover.

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Date: Tues, Apr 10, 2001 at 18:06:04 (GMT)
From: cq
Email: None
To: Jean-Michel
Subject: cough, splutter ... apoplexy ...
Message:
Does it really say there that a spokesman for the Maha said this: (presumably spokesman means 'on behalf of the one he's speaking for'?)

quote:

'The guru receiving presents from his devotees is no more different than Christ, the poor son of a carpenter, receiving the three wise men's offerings of frankincense, gold and myrrh'.

.
.
.

this'll come as news to the recent premies who believe his spiel about 'never claimed to be God'. (and no doubt the spokesman loved associating the 'three wise men' with devotees).

What a blatant con it was!

Less blatant now, but still just as damaging.

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Date: Tues, Apr 10, 2001 at 00:25:03 (GMT)
From: Gregg
Email: None
To: cq
Subject: Spinning psychobabble
Message:
This is what EV says Maharaji says:

'and instead encourages people to recognize their actions,
learn
from them and move on.'

Bullshit. Maharaji never encouraged anyone to move on. Or to recognize their actions, for that matter. He only encouraged us to cleave to him. Period. Even today, in this supposedly non-devotional period, all the EV poet wannabes lavish the Master with hosannahs to the highest.

M is not the plain-speaking wholistic guru therapist this EV spinmeister paints him as.

He is an Indian playboy with a great Western gig.

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Date: Tues, Apr 10, 2001 at 01:06:37 (GMT)
From: Nigel
Email: nigel@redcrow.demon.co.uk
To: Gregg
Subject: True - and even if he was...
Message:
Who needs a 'plain-speaking wholistic guru therapist' anyway?

Though I've no doubt every plain-speaking wholistic guru therapist needs to be needed.

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Date: Mon, Apr 09, 2001 at 23:40:15 (GMT)
From: Elan Vital
Email: None
To: cq
Subject: Cough ... splutter ... read this at your peril:
Message:
Dear cq or whoever you anonymous poster happens to be:

The totally and completely cultless Elan Vital is as pleased as punch that, finally, some correct and updated information on Maharaji and his message is being communicated among the outrageous lies and hurtful comments that are regularly hurled at Maharaji, and Elan Vital, by anonymous people like you on the internet.

Anonymous people, we might add, whose motives should be highly questioned. In fact, we at Elan Vital spend nearly all our time questioning those motives, and find it completely and utterly unnecessary to address the allegations, when the motives of those alleging such things are in doubt, question and/or subject to implied slander. While we have ooodles of time to question motives, we have no time whatsoever to address any of the criticisms, since once we finish impuning motives, we must set about promoting Maharaji and his message and have no time for anything else. Right now, we are spending countless hours in an attempt to scare the crap out of our members to get them to cough up money to go to Amaroo, since, so far, onloy 33 people have reserved by paying, we mean donating $800 for the opportunity to pay thousands of dollars more to sleep in the Australian outback.

Nevertheless, we appreciate your re-printing our clear, completely straight-forward and thorough answers to questions frequently asked, from out internet website. We have gone so far as to decide NOT to sue you to within an inch of your life for copyright infringement. That's just the kind of ethical and caring organization we are, something we have learned in a synchronized fashion though leaderless work groups and the practice of technique number 5.

The meterial you reprinted it proves that, far from living a luxurious lifestyle, Maharaji has been living, for 17 years, in a delapitated, leaking bungalow in one of the poorest sections of Malibu, which hardly has room for his 36 luxury vehicles and his multi-million dollar watch collection. Why, space was so tight, Mahararji almost found it necessary to move the watch collection and several jetliners to his delapidated house in the United Kingdom, or to his delapidated estate in India, and even possibly Australia.

Yes, Maharaji's selfless willingness to practically camp out up in the hills to save money so he can selflessly give the experience of knowledge to people is legendary, which has been recognized by the legislatures of several states, and the City Council of Detroit. Why, in Detroit, Maharaji was also given flowers and a cream pie for dessert. That's how impressed Detroit was. They don't give those things away, you know.

Also, we have observed that Maharaji doesn't live all that well, what with having to deal with California power outages and the possibility of fires. We were discussing this with Maharaji just the other day, as Maharaji landed his helicopter on his $8 million yacht, and he emphasized it is a difficult, almost spartan life he lives. Why, at times even food is a problem as anyone can tell by looking at Maharaji. But, being the light-hearted, enigmatic guy he is, Maharaji always has his little, bitty, thimball fill of cognac after his dinner of rice and beans. He is just so enigmatic. Who knows what he will do next! We gave up trying to predict in 1971.

Moreover, dealing with the delalpidated house is one of the reasons Maharaji is so busy. He is constantly climbing up onto the roof repairing leaks and that takes lots of time. In fact, that is the reason he is installing the helicopter pad on his yacht, so he can more quickly get back to repair the roof, before heading off to save mankind of maya and misery on his $40 million Gulfstream Jet, made necessary because flying Commerical Airliners First Class is worse than hell, which Maharaji said to Michael Dettmers one time. People do not understand that flying first class is a terrible hardship for Maharaji, which is something Elan Vital is sure no one else would put up with. Can we really expect Maharaji to do that? How could you be so cruel to even think that! Denying Maharaji the basic human necessities, like a Gulfstream would just be criminal.

Thank you for your interest. If you seek further information, please contact Pauline Premie at the Public Relations Department of Elan Vital, which is not a cult, since Elan Vital differs from a cult in a number of ways displayed on a complicated and professional-looking matrix on our website at www.elanvital.org. Elan Vital and Maharaji believe strongly, that if you put anything into a chart or bar graph, at least some people will think it's important and true.

Pauline can be reaced at ElanVital@wearenotacultwereallyaren't.org.

In Synchronized Leaderless Participation,

Elan Vital

CHILD SEXUAL MOLESTATION IS OUT LOWEST PRIORITY SINCE 1971

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Date: Mon, Apr 09, 2001 at 19:33:21 (GMT)
From: Nigel
Email: None
To: cq
Subject: Written by Turner, perhaps..? (nt)
Message:
nt
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Date: Mon, Apr 09, 2001 at 18:52:16 (GMT)
From: Cynthia
Email: None
To: cq
Subject: ''Quiet Family Retreat...Leaking Bungalow...'
Message:
Hi cq,

I just looked at today's EV newsletter, and he's blabbing on and on about breathing again. This one is very funny, I must say.

Don't get me started about the airplane excuses....but I liked the following.

Whoever writes these things narratives is a truly shitty writer, IMO, btw.

He comments: 'The whole process of learning is like climbing a set of stairs and you know that once you have left that step, if you go back to it you're not going anywhere. You're always leaving the steps and each is important, and in the process of
continuing on you have to leave the steps behind. That’s what
growth is, that’s what evolving is.

Okay, so I'm walking up a set of stairs, and oops! I forgot to get my snack in the kitchen, I can't go back, because I must leave the steps behind. Which means, I must jump from the step I'm on, down to the first floor, which could be very dangerous if I'm almost in my upstairs office where my computer is. I could get, like, you know, really hurt.

Besides, I have this weird ''falling up stairs'' karma juju, and I'll tell you, whenever I fall up the stairs, I always must go down. Now what am I supposed to do about that? This didn't start happening after I became an ex, btw. I have bad foot karma juju...can't count the injuries I've have on my feet and toes!

So I guess I'll just ignore what he says, as usual, and go back a step, really deep into my mind, and consider this a dumbing down style of spin doctoring. Sheesh! What a guy!

Love,
Cynthia

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Date: Mon, Apr 09, 2001 at 21:47:57 (GMT)
From: DeProGram Anand Ji
Email: not given
To: Everyone
Subject: ''Quiet Family Retreat...Leaking Bungalow...'
Message:
A pathetic and transparent attempt to rationalize away everything.

A bungalow is by definition a one storied house with a low pitched roof.

A mansion is a large imposing residence! Mr. Rawat lived in a mansion and was very much aware of the prestige associated with living in a mansion!

The former abode of a humble HOLLYWOOD DIRECTOR, give me a fucking break!

DO I HAVE THE WORD IDIOT WRITTEN ACROSS MY FOREHEAD?

MR. RAWAT YOU CAN KEEP ON SELLING, BUT I DON'T BUY A WORD OF IT!

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Date: Mon, Apr 09, 2001 at 19:09:34 (GMT)
From: cq
Email: None
To: Cynthia
Subject: shortcircuiting the thinking process
Message:
What amazes me (well, after hearing him spout the same old, same old for so long, perhaps the word 'amaze' is a misnomer) - is that on one hand he's saying that his

'message has never changed',

THEN that his mission is always 'evolving',

THEN that the 'unchanging' is what matters,

THEN that '... in the process of continuing on you have to leave the steps behind'.

.
.
.

It would be obvious to anyone but an enamoured premie that the guy's message is designed to do one thing and one thing only - to fuck your head up until you can't think straight anymore.

And did Peter (below) really suggest that we should pity a man who's still fucking around with peoples' heads, relationships, ... lives?

Excuse my language, and my exasperation, but -

Sheeeeesh.

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Date: Mon, Apr 09, 2001 at 20:09:25 (GMT)
From: Cynthia
Email: None
To: cq
Subject: shortcircuiting the thinking process
Message:
It's true, the contradictions are so clear and so phony, too. You'd have to be brainwashed, programmed, whatever, to be able to even listen to him.

And don't think for one moment that his ''speak'' isn't planned and orchestrated. It is. Isn't it obvious? Fuck the heads up of as many people as he can, and collect their money....

....so he can live in a very shabby section of Malibu!

Lately, these ''releases'' seem to correspond to what's happening on the forum. Am I paranoid? I don't think so. Read between the lines!

LOLOL!

Love,
Cynthia

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Date: Mon, Apr 09, 2001 at 18:28:41 (GMT)
From: Bazza
Email: None
To: cq
Subject: Malibu Mansion
Message:
I was thinking we should suggest the Malibu Mansion as a feature on 'This Old House' - how a Successful Private Investor turned a leaky old hilltop bungalow into a sprawling, luxurious habitat with little or no money coming from his own pocket.
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Date: Mon, Apr 09, 2001 at 18:55:53 (GMT)
From: Selene
Email: None
To: Bazza
Subject: Malibu Mansion
Message:
That's so funny Bazza! For sme reason I got into watching that show for a while. I'm picturing it now.

The house thing really bugs me. I remember the old house, it was quite nice. Of course I didn't live inside with the leaky roof and how long was it they put up with this delapitation? 18 years?

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Date: Mon, Apr 09, 2001 at 20:43:08 (GMT)
From: Bazza
Email: None
To: Selene
Subject: Funnier still if I was the videographer
Message:
I'm on the call-list for the production company which films TOH, I'd make sure we got close-ups of the Golden Toilet. Maybe we could syndicate it to 'Lifestyles of the Rich and Famous' too.
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Date: Tues, Apr 10, 2001 at 08:17:32 (GMT)
From: janet
Email: None
To: Bazza
Subject: go for it baz. pitch it to the brass.
Message:
for both shows.
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Date: Mon, Apr 09, 2001 at 17:28:14 (GMT)
From: Katie Darling
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: Spiritual abandonment
Message:
As I described below in the 'evil' thread, I went to the Ananda ashram last week with a girlfriend who wanted a retreat from her kids, and with whom I wanted to spend a weekend. I knew about the Kriyanand scandal, but thought he had been fired from the community. I was shocked to find that, while he wasn't there, he was being praised as a great guru and 'model of humanity'. (he has fled to his followers in Italy where, apparently, they find all the outrage at the Swami's sexual abuse of about 30 devotees just 'really American').

I came back and read the website of the followers who initiated lawsuits against him, and got into communication with them, and they came and looked at this site and loved it, and posted a bit way way below.

Anyway, my friend whom I went with knew nothing of all this, and we have been e-mailing back and forth about it ever since. Here is a great quote from her last e-mail (she's not an ex-premie):

'Those who have the positive parent projection on the guru are painfully threatened if they are finding a deep healing from their childhood negative parent who has given them comfort, only then to admit they are being betrayed and abandoned again...I assume you know this transference better than me. Must be incredibly painful and hard to accept when it is cloaked in spiritual yada such as unconditional love, forgiveness, detachement...but all of that emotional devotion is useless without the mental qualities of wisdom, discernment and discrimination. Than is why I have always felt the Bhakti devotional path of Hinduism is obsolete without the Jana path (Mental component) to balance it.'

I thought this was a pretty hot paragraph, and that someone here might enjoy reading it. The whole issue of spiritual abandonment was incredibly painful for me. I definitely turned to MJ and the whole 'spiritual family' to heal the wounds of my own family, and it was beyond disappointing to feel betrayed. The big challenge for me has been to NOT be run by this betrayal, but to keep opening up more and more to my own healing, to having a loving family of friends around me, to an ever-deepening love affair with life, albeit with discrimination and more wisdom.

Love Katie Darling

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Date: Mon, Apr 09, 2001 at 18:59:29 (GMT)
From: Way
Email: None
To: Katie Darling
Subject: Spiritual abandonment
Message:
Katie D.,

How interesting that you went to the Ananda community. I've been wondering how they can maintain, at this point. You missed Swami Kriyananda in person by a month. He was giving the Sunday sermons in March. Did he go back to Italy? His presentation is quite good as the quintessential Godly man, he can be quite convincing based on image alone.

I can't locate the earlier posting by the ex-Kriyananda people. Perhaps it hasn't yet been archived, or it has been deleted?

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Date: Tues, Apr 10, 2001 at 22:58:34 (GMT)
From: Katie Darling
Email: None
To: Way
Subject: Spiritual abandonment
Message:
Hi Way

The Way that can be spoken is not the true way.

Yeah, he went back to Italy, but was coming back for something soon.

You saw him? What a coincidence that you were there. It would have been funny if we'd both been there at the same time, and I'd looked across at you and thought 'that must be Way.' Are you from this neck of the woods?

Their thread was in the last week or so, and I think was titled 'another scumbag to avoid.'

I bet they'd love to hear from you about what you perceived. I get the feeling they're a bit more lonely in their opposition than we are.

Heyway, isn't that 'attack Peter' thread above embarrassing?

love Katie Darling

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Date: Wed, Apr 11, 2001 at 14:46:29 (GMT)
From: Way
Email: None
To: Katie Darling
Subject: Spiritual abandonment
Message:
Hi Katie D,

I'm in the Midwest, so I don't have quite as lovely a place to walk as you do, but I do find some beautiful or interesting spots, nevertheless, and walk alot.

I have never been to the Ananda community, although I've been a fan of theirs for years, until the lawsuit, of course. I watched a Sunday sermon of Donald Walters (as I prefer to call him) which is provided as a Realplay movie on Ananda's official website. So I did not see him in person, nor do I want to. His sweet, silky smooth delivery makes me sick.

It makes me sad that some of their old-timers are still loyal to a man, instead of loyal to their own ideals.

Yeah, I think Peter got a raw deal from both cq and gerry, but he should be able to handle it. He seems kindof upset with gerry.

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Date: Wed, Apr 11, 2001 at 20:09:47 (GMT)
From: Katie Darling
Email: darlingwave@aol.com
To: Way
Subject: Spiritual abandonment
Message:
Re 'being a fan of theirs'

I have a big soft spot for Yogananda, and read his book again after 30 years while at Ananda. Are you on the RE forum? I have a feeling you are, in which case you probably read the amazing Yogananda event that happened between me and another poster. Do you feel good about Yoganand? Is this why you were a fan of Ananda until the lawsuit?

love Katie Darling (email address above if you like)

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Date: Mon, Apr 09, 2001 at 18:43:01 (GMT)
From: Mercedes
Email: None
To: Katie Darling
Subject: betrayal
Message:
Katie you wrote:
'I thought this was a pretty hot paragraph, and that someone
here might enjoy reading it. The whole issue of spiritual abandonment was incredibly painful for me. I definitely turned to MJ and the whole 'spiritual family' to heal the wounds of my
own family, and it was beyond disappointing to feel betrayed.
The big challenge for me has been to NOT be run by this
betrayal, but to keep opening up more and more to my own
healing, to having a loving family of friends around me, to an
ever-deepening love affair with life, albeit with discrimination
and more wisdom.'

Thank you so much, for me the transferrence was very real and the betreyal I feel cuts deep. Rawat was not only my Master, but my father figure, my God figure...anyway it is very dysfunctional and I think when your God is no longer what do you do? I have moments of dissorientation then I go to the mountains and feel connected to that Higher Power again, I stop feeling abandoned. I guess healing takes time and I am glad I can talk about it.
Love ya!!!!
Mercedes

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Date: Mon, Apr 09, 2001 at 20:02:05 (GMT)
From: Cynthia
Email: None
To: Mercedes
Subject: Personal Betrayal and Abandonment...
Message:
Hi Mercedes and Katie,

Spiritual abandonment remains my most difficult phase in healing from the cult right now.

I've already grieved the loss of the personal connection (a devotional love to m) which turned out to be false. This, after 10 years of therapy for my childhood fiasco! I got very angry that I had yet another big abandonment issue, one that defined my entire spirituality, my soul, my beliefs. It's possible to leave Maharaji behind, though. I don't love him at all anymore. I don't think of him as anything but the cult leader of the cult I was in. He still pisses me off though...

The snow is finally melting here and I can smell soil. I saw a bit of moss on the bank across my driveway where a hedgerow of big old maples still sit dormant. When the moss is fully exposed it'll be phorescent green for a couple of weeks. It thrills me every year.

Spring is quite dramatic in Vermont. I can't wait to be able to get to my swimming hole--it's down about 40 feet from the bank of my Mad River. The river flows north and some mill worker years ago laid stone steps making it an easy walk to this day, down into smooth boulder foundations. The bank changes every year.

I moved to this rural area because I need to see natural beauty every day. Even on it's worst day, Vermont is beautiful. Living in the Green Mountains is tough physically, mentally, and financially. I'ts worth it to me so I can see the drastic changes in the seasons, and to be up close and personal with it.

What's my spirituality? I don't have a clue, but I love living and I love where I live. A good step. I can't even think about spirituality, faith, beliefs, etc.; makes me queasy...

Katie, your friend wrote a real hot paragraph. You did too. I enjoy your posts very much and learn a lot from you. Thanks.

Love,
Cynthia

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Date: Mon, Apr 09, 2001 at 21:50:16 (GMT)
From: Katie Darling
Email: None
To: Cynthia
Subject: Phosphorescent green moss
Message:
How beautiful is your description!

I've been hiking every single day for the last two or three weeks - initially out of desperation to create a change in my health, and now out of more and more love and wonder. I have always loved nature, but recently it seems to be pulling me further in. I was talking to my hubbie earlier about our hot date tonight, and instead of dinner and a movie, which it would have been up until recently, it's dinner and a hike.

I live at the edge of the hills north of San Francisco. Just steps from my door, you can hike for miles, to the ocean or up and down the coast. There is a rock about a mile up the hill, which we go and sit on to meditate, or whatever it is we do. Often we have excited conversations about our latest ideas. Sometimes we make out. Sometimes we just sit and bask in the 360 degree view. It is all green and full of flowers now.

Much love to you Cynthia and Mercedes and all of you,

Katie Darling

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Date: Mon, Apr 09, 2001 at 23:56:01 (GMT)
From: Mercedes
Email: None
To: Katie Darling and Cynthia
Subject: Phosphorescent green moss
Message:
Yes it sounds beautiful. I hear what you are saying Cynthia and Katie about being close to nature I've been working in my garden yesterday and today and I feel different already. It always grounds me.
I love hiking and go up to the mountains around Seattle, always have a deep experience Winter or Summer. Love to be deep in the woods. Love being alone in general out there.
Love to you both.
Mercedes
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Date: Mon, Apr 09, 2001 at 16:31:48 (GMT)
From: david
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: helping loved ones break free
Message:
Hello everyone,

I have been reading your postings for some time now. I was an aspirant for two years in the early nineties. My fiancée ,now my wife, was a lifer at the time and still is.

After going to a live program, it was apparent to me, that M wanted to be worshiped. That's all I needed to know. I was finished with the cult. However, my wife is still very much involved. This situation is a difficult one for me. I do not feel I can be honest with her. If I told her what I know and how I feel, I fear that would mean the end of our relationship. I love my wife, and in every other way she is a healthy and normal person. However, she puts the cult first, and is very irresponsible about her financial obligations to the family. She will spent money on going to programs, but she will not pay a light bill.

I would love to see her quit the cult. My guess is: she is in the cult for life.

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Date: Tues, Apr 10, 2001 at 20:00:35 (GMT)
From: such
Email: None
To: david
Subject: thought I was in for 'life': cost me a kid + wife
Message:
David,

been there, done it -- way back when. I was a loyal premie then, too - and frankly disliked some local amoral ex-premies for a long time afterward, especially for their constant mockery of nice premies and their encouraging the premie wife to do drugs with them and then have sex with their coke dealer [even in front of my kid] while I was gone or at work. She turned into a faithless, witchy coke whore -- but a goody-goody in the blind eyes of her parents. Consequently, I used to think most ex-premies were fucked-up. Of course, some are, too...

Wife and I split up a Long long time ago, and in court she and her rich family's attorney lied, lied, lied, and then finally used the cult pretext to prevent me from seeing my kid. I was the nice guy in court -- never even brought up her drugs and wild ho activities in front of the kid. Lost everything I had. Very embittering and painful -- 'til I forgave within myself years later. [Advice to anyone: Although it's always preferable to try and sort things out amicably with people, Never go into court unprepared or reluctant to kick ass, if necessary, if your kids and home are at stake.]

David, you can never tell how people's attitudes/feelings may change, however, regardless of m. or otherwise. Having one leg of a relationship in a cult and one leg outside is definitely an uncomfortable situation - particularly if there is a sharp picket-fence post in the middle.

Choices include: patience/understanding, maybe show her a tour of the gnarly info about the Lard on this site, do some research on the meditation techniques so you can explain how they are available free elsewhere and how people with no guru/master have the same types of experiences from meditation, politely change the subject to a different topic of conversation to make it clear you aren't interested in hearing about m., maybe try a marriage counselor, find some new active and healthy bonding activities/hobbies together, and Don't enable her cult addiction by funding any donations or plane tickets/expenses to m. events.

If she doesn't push the guru juju trip on you [or kids, if you have any], you could just take a live and let live approach, too, and be very loving. There are millions of families with husbands-wives of different faiths, divergent political leanings, etc., after all. But understand that she is a longtime codependent to an abusive, deluded megalomaniac. She has been falsely conditioned to associate her own inner experience with m. Longtime strings she's had to m. may be hard for her to break, emotionally and rationally. If it gets rough at some point in the relationship, marital and personal counseling might help. Confrontations about m. in the marriage will most likely only drive her in the opposite direction. Without pressure, she may gradually come around to a new way of looking at things, in her own way and own time.

Whatever happens, just be a decent human being - then no guilt or regrets later. Good Luck!! You will surely need it, brother.

Peace and lentils,

P.S. 25+ years later, my kid is still resentful about the breakup and its effects.

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Date: Mon, Apr 09, 2001 at 23:17:02 (GMT)
From: Bazza
Email: None
To: david
Subject: Have to decide what you want
Message:
Hi David

I'm no therapist, just a regular joe, but seems to me you have a few separate issues going on and maybe you need to sort out what is bugging you the most.

Most people who are ardent followers of maharaji are completely sold on him, blinded by all the hype about him and fiercly defensive of this 'special person' in their lives. I think if you challenge that head on and openly criticise him, you are on a hiding to nothing. Better to look at how her involvement with the cult is affecting you and your relationship together and address that as openly and honestly as you can.

The finances are a separate issue really. While she's still devoted to m and the cult, he will always be a priority (for her)as far as money goes. So maybe try to reach a compromise - look at your overall money scene and agree on a budget, eg she has $200 a week to spend on the goomer and you have $200 to spend on hookers and beer. Works for me at least.

Beyond that, mate, the only thing you can do is maybe get her to look through the main website here (links at top) and get into some discussions on this forum with rational, polite debaters like Jim and salaam.

If all else fails, I'm told there are some pretty foxy single chicks who are forum regulars:)

Good luck
bazza

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Date: Tues, Apr 10, 2001 at 00:25:52 (GMT)
From: David
Email: None
To: Bazza
Subject: Have to decide what you want
Message:
Good advise, but I am already spending $300 a week on hookers and beer.
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Date: Mon, Apr 09, 2001 at 19:25:15 (GMT)
From: Kev
Email: None
To: david
Subject: helping loved ones break free
Message:
Hi David,

Relationships with premies are never easy and as Selene said below 'there are no easy answers' I have friends who are still premies and I know most of them have read the ex-premie.org site but simply choose to stay with m. But the good news is that a lot of premies do read the site and decide enough is enough and quit the cult for good.

So although you say 'I would love to see her quit the cult. My guess is: she is in the cult for life' I would just like to say that I to saw myself being with m for life but when I read the truth of how m really was/is I made the right move and quit. So please David do not be afraid to tell youe wife what you know. Some times truth is the hardist thing to take but in the end it is the best thing to have.

What ever your decision your wife makes I am sure she will still love you.

Good luck.

Kev a once very devoted premie but now a very happy free man.

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Date: Mon, Apr 09, 2001 at 20:49:09 (GMT)
From: David
Email: None
To: Kev
Subject: helping loved ones break free
Message:
Hi Kev,

your post is very encouraging. At some point I will bring the topic up with my wife. I am hoping that M will get some bad press, and I will use that event as a point of discussion.

I hope you are right about Premies reading this site. I know my wife has connected by accident to site a few years ago. It seems to me that she has avoided the site since. She does not want anything to mess up her faith.

It is great to have an honest discussion with someone about the flying guru. Later

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Date: Mon, Apr 09, 2001 at 18:56:30 (GMT)
From: cq
Email: None
To: david
Subject: I hope yours isn't to be another relationship that
Message:
I hope yours isn't to be another relationship that gets trampled by the 'lotus feet' of that 'spiritual' charlatan.

Some of the posts below suggest that we should feel pity for the Maharaji. I fail to see why, when the damage done to human relationships by his irresponsibility to face up to the consequences of his preaching still continues, decade after decade.

The man has a responsibility. And that responsibility is to stop entrapping people into dependency on him and his so-called 'knowledge'. No matter what his father might have told him to do.

.
.
.

Jeffrey Masson (at http://www.xs4all.nl/~wichm/psymove.html - a site worth perusing) has this to say about gurus:

Every guru claims to know something you cannot know by yourself or through ordinary channels.

All gurus promise access to a hidden reality if only you will follow their teaching, accept their authority, hand your life over to them.

Certain questions are off limits. There are things you cannot know about the guru and the guru's personal life. Every doubt about the guru is a reflection of your own unworthiness, or the influence of an external evil force. The more obscure the action of the guru, the more likely it is to be right, to be cherished.

Ultimately you cannot admire the guru, you must worship him. You must obey him, you must humble yourself, for the greater he is, the less you are - until you reach the inner circle and can start abusing other people the way your guru abused you. All this is in the very nature of being a guru.

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Date: Mon, Apr 09, 2001 at 18:33:01 (GMT)
From: Way
Email: None
To: david
Subject: How much does she know?
Message:
David,

You could at least make sure that your wife knows all about her guru's sexual proclivities and certain troubling facts such as the hit and run accident/coverup. She may not be aware of Maharaji's extensive drinking problem and the x-rating, etc. If she becomes fully informed, she will certainly have cause for concern, at the very least. I suggest you print up the 14 objections letter for her.

You don't really say how intense the problem is. If you have children, and their college funds are being diverted to Amaroo 2001, then you have an immediate and severe problem. Be that as it may, the lack of full and honest communication between you is of course troublesome, as you say.

Good luck.

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Date: Mon, Apr 09, 2001 at 21:01:49 (GMT)
From: David
Email: None
To: Way
Subject: How much does she know?
Message:
Hi Way,

When I break the ice on the M thing, I will show her the 14 objections.

What really gets me is that she keeps trying to get others involved, and they watch the videos for awhile and then finally get the picture and toss the Guru. My wife just keeps trying.

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Date: Mon, Apr 09, 2001 at 21:13:40 (GMT)
From: Way
Email: None
To: David
Subject: So I married a guru lover...
Message:
Does she write Maharaji love poems? If so, you need to put your foot down!

(Sorry, David, just joking, and good luck!)

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Date: Mon, Apr 09, 2001 at 21:18:24 (GMT)
From: David
Email: None
To: Way
Subject: So I married a guru lover...
Message:
She she written him. However, I do not think she has done that in awhile.
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Date: Mon, Apr 09, 2001 at 16:35:56 (GMT)
From: Susan
Email: None
To: david
Subject: another pitch for a book
Message:
Steve Hassan's 'releasing the bonds' addresses how to help someone you care about out of a cult.
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Date: Mon, Apr 09, 2001 at 16:37:26 (GMT)
From: Susan
Email: None
To: Susan
Subject: link
Message:
http://www.freedomofmind.com/
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Date: Mon, Apr 09, 2001 at 16:42:10 (GMT)
From: Daivd
Email: None
To: Susan
Subject: link
Message:
Thank you Susan. I'll check the site out.
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Date: Mon, Apr 09, 2001 at 18:03:16 (GMT)
From: Selene
Email: None
To: David
Subject: relationships with premies
Message:
Hi David
Your post was very vivid to me. In the last go around in the 9's I was the premie, my husband had never heard of M. I downplayed how much it all meant to me and he didn't question my running off to events all the time. We were financially ok at that point forunately.
When I took him to see M he was polite in his feedback to me but never tried to get involved.
And when I finally made the break he told me he was very relieved.
So it's great you came here and so openly shared what it's like on the other side. Susan's link is a good one. I hope it helps.

I'm sure you know there's no easy answers for what you are going through.

For me, my husband's non-judgemental attitude was good in some ways but he did get a few doubts into my dumb head. I remember one time he asked me if EV/Maharaji donated money to any charities or helped out society in some way. I gave the standard answer about changing the world by changing one heart at a time blah blah but even as I answered him I remember feeling shallow. And it helped, those littles things that someone we care about might say that make us examine ourselves.

Best wishes and good to see you here.

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Date: Mon, Apr 09, 2001 at 21:14:02 (GMT)
From: David
Email: None
To: Selene
Subject: relationships with premies
Message:
Selene, your husband's approach was very similar to my own.

I just hope that my wife has that spoonful of doubt that will grow over time. However, I sure do not see wavering.

Were you the perfect believer to the end, or did you begin openly challenging the cult's party line?

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Date: Mon, Apr 09, 2001 at 22:07:00 (GMT)
From: Katie Darling
Email: None
To: David
Subject: Empathy
Message:
I've never been in your position but I have known a lot of people who are. Mostly couples where one person has left and the other hasn't. Recently, I was in Hawaii with a realtor, looking at a plot of land, and I realized that his wife, whose name he mentioned, had the name of a premie I once knew. I asked if it was she, and he said, yes. I told him I had been a premie, and although he was circumspect and correct in his communication, I got a strong feeling from him - a combination of having to let go and allow his wife to do her thing (she was a premie when he met her) and wanting her to wake up and smell the coffee. He took the address of this site, but I don't think he was really going to show it to her.

Like people said above, there aren't any easy answers. It's very sensitive when it's an intimate love relationship. You need her love just as she needs yours. Broaching the subject may feel threatening to your needs for stability and safety - what if she had to choose and didn't choose you?

I'm sure that won't happen though. I think that the good news is that the power that MJ used to have over people is lessening dramatically with time. Although I haven't seen him for years, people report that he is becoming more boring, less charismatic, and that the whole involvement is losing its magic, if it ever had any. And this site is definitely seeding doubts in the premie community at large on some level. I reckon that if you just hang in there, taking care of yourself and loving her, it will work itself out. If not, contact us again and we'll send in the EPO-SWAT team. (That's a joke!).

Sending you lots of love and support,

Katie Darling

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Date: Mon, Apr 09, 2001 at 22:42:53 (GMT)
From: David
Email: None
To: Katie Darling
Subject: Empathy
Message:
Katie Darling,

you are funny. Thank you for your comments.

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Date: Mon, Apr 09, 2001 at 22:05:03 (GMT)
From: Selene
Email: None
To: David
Subject: easily influeced is what I was
Message:
that was me...

Hi again David
I worried I may have been too lowkey in my last msg to you. It's so hard to judge what is happening with someone else.
Not paying bills is kind of a bad sign. but only you can be the judge of how bad it is.

I am not a good example perhaps. I was wondering for about 2 years what the heck I was doing still hanging out with those people and going to the events. I would squirm and die of impatience during the videos and only 'got' it when M came out to speak. 'got it' by my definition meaning got the group high or what I thought I had come for.
Always looked for an aisle seat so I could get out quick :)
In fact the year before I left I only went to local videos and to see M because of an influencial friend.

But you'd be surprised I was total gung ho (or is it so hung?) in the 70's so you never know.

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Date: Mon, Apr 09, 2001 at 22:50:29 (GMT)
From: David
Email: None
To: Selene
Subject: easily influeced is what I was
Message:
Selene,

Don't worry about any comments you have made. You and the others on ex-premie.org have been extremely helpful. What has happened, is, my course of action has been validated, and I have more hope that some day my wife will see M for the fake that he is.

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Date: Mon, Apr 09, 2001 at 23:01:18 (GMT)
From: Selene
Email: None
To: David
Subject: that's great David
Message:
Don't give up. Maharaji is insidious becuase it is all so toned down only people like you who live with someone really into it can see the effects on critical thinking, etc.
It sounds like you love your wife very much. That can be the strongest influence even though it may take time. I know this from my own wild ride.
Hope to see you around.
Best,
Selene
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Date: Tues, Apr 10, 2001 at 00:27:57 (GMT)
From: David
Email: None
To: Selene
Subject: that's great David
Message:
Thanks, I'll be around.
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Date: Mon, Apr 09, 2001 at 12:07:59 (GMT)
From: Helen
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: My theory of mind/body stress of cult followers
Message:
Pat asked me to post this as a new thread. It's my theory of the stress cycle of the cult follower.Here it is, quickly, before aol bumps me off again. I am not sure how to represent this visually.

The aspirant listens to incoherent stuff (satsang) over and over again. His/her body and mind wants 'out' and the stress pattern begins. At this stage, if the aspirant leaves the cult environment, he or she can recover fairly easily from the stress. Many devotees start to have mental or physical stress symptoms at this point.(stage 1)

After awhile, the brain that used to work with the body to process and resolve traumatic experiences, switches off and the devotee starts letting others do his/her thinking. This is very pernicious. It's part of the brainwashing process, and sets the chronic patterns of a body-mind split into motion. (stage 2)

The dynamics in diagram 1 and 2 continue until the devotee begins to see his mind as a separate entity from himself. He has now disowned the Self and has split off from himself. He no longer trusts his own hunches or bodily signals. A good example of this would be Joan Aptor saying that sometimes 'her mind wished that Maharaji would die in a plane crash so this would all be over.' physical or mental problems become worse and start becoming chronic at this stage. (stage 3)

The devotee is now in a very vulnerable state, having disowned his mind and body. The locus of control is no longer inside him but 'out there.' He sometimes thinks that Maharaji is making his every breath happen or that maharaji is giving him certain experiences in meditation. He has completely bought the concept that the world is not to be trusted and no longer engages in 'worldly' activities. In this vulnerable state it is hard to keep a job, have a fulfilling intimate relationship, or stick up for himself in the normal daily squirmishes that constitute adult life. (stage 4)

END POINT OF THE CYCLE--stage 5: CONGRATULATIONS MAHARAJI!! You have now re-created the world for someone and made him into a zombie. It will possibly take years for this human being to get out of your grip. He or she will possibly be plagued with chronic mental or physical illness which was set into motion when the mind and body went into a state of splitting and when body systems shut down (a phenomena also called 'hibernation' in fibromyalgia and chronic fatigue research) in an effort to cope with the traumas of cult life.

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Date: Tues, Apr 10, 2001 at 22:15:06 (GMT)
From: la-ex
Email: None
To: Helen
Subject: great post-similar to one I psted a few weeks ago
Message:
about the steps of brainwashing, by Margaret Singer.I will go back and check the similarities between them.

Also, A book by Rober Tif(l)ton, is supposedly the bible of deprogrammers, esp. one chapter.

Do you, or anyone else know about it?

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Date: Tues, Apr 10, 2001 at 22:55:03 (GMT)
From: Helen
Email: None
To: la-ex
Subject: haven't heard of either (nt)
Message:
fjhasljsld
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Date: Tues, Apr 10, 2001 at 11:46:44 (GMT)
From: Katie H
Email: None
To: Helen
Subject: Helen ***BEST OF FORUM**** for your two posts
Message:
I'm really impressed! That's some great THINKING there.

Love you,
Katie

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Date: Tues, Apr 10, 2001 at 23:02:59 (GMT)
From: Helen
Email: None
To: Katie H
Subject: thanks Katie
Message:
Did you get my email???
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Date: Thurs, Apr 12, 2001 at 12:02:04 (GMT)
From: Katie H.
Email: None
To: Helen
Subject: Helen, YES and thanks! I have a full mailbox (nt)
Message:
nt
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Date: Tues, Apr 10, 2001 at 03:33:08 (GMT)
From: Joe
Email: None
To: Helen
Subject: Helen, really excellent.
Message:
I could just feel going through those cycles. I think this ought to be on the website permanently. I think it explains clearly what a lot of us have said in lots of other ways. Thanks so much for that. Well done.
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Date: Tues, Apr 10, 2001 at 22:57:06 (GMT)
From: Helen
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: Helen, really excellent.
Message:
Thanks, it would be great for it to be part of the site.
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Date: Mon, Apr 09, 2001 at 23:26:29 (GMT)
From: Roger eDrek
Email: drek@oz.net
To: Helen
Subject: Great post, indeed, it takes me back
Message:
I'll never forget how it all began. First seeing Maharaji speak and not understanding anything because of his accent and rambling discourse. Next was trying to get Knowledge but having to endure the 30 days of satsang to soften up my mind. And, indeed, the whole body/mind split began and I kept telling myself to just hang on until I get the Big Knowledge and then I get away from these crazy people and their crazy shit that they are trying to force feed me. But it was too late and I was hooked.

And the whole brainwashing leaves you a completely confused and disempowered person who is always waiting for something to happen by His Grace.

Hopefully, premies will read this stuff and consider what has happened to them. And hopefully the general public will read this stuff and avoid getting sucked into being turned into a zombie.

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Date: Tues, Apr 10, 2001 at 23:27:10 (GMT)
From: Helen
Email: None
To: Roger eDrek
Subject: Roger
Message:
Yeah, there's a turning point between 'must have this knowledge' and 'it's too late' that got all of us.

'Must have this knowledge' was a thought coming from our brains.

'It's too late, I'm totally gone'--was not.

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Date: Mon, Apr 09, 2001 at 12:11:40 (GMT)
From: Helen
Email: None
To: everyone
Subject: My theory--more
Message:
The diagram needs to have a feedback loop drawn in around stage 5. The frustrating interactions the devotee has with the world (in stage 5) due to his inability to cope as his brain is no longer functioning, reinforce his superstituous beliefs about the world and cause him to further cling to the meditation and pray to Maharaji. So his frustrations never get resolved, and his childlike coping mechanism (clinging to the lotus feet), keep him dependent and weak.
NOW, how does all this get resolved???

This theory needs something positive at the end. THE HEALING PROCESS, stage 6--Ideally, the person reclaims all his/her disowned thoughts/feelings/physical symptoms. Thus begins the process of the ex-devotee becoming, in the words of Joseph Campbell, 'the authority of his own life.' He gave up the authority or power at the point where he started to disown his own thoughts, feelings, and bodily symptoms as 'other' (or 'Mr. Mind')

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Date: Mon, Apr 09, 2001 at 18:14:00 (GMT)
From: Selene
Email: None
To: Helen
Subject: a keeper should be part of the site
Message:
Thanks Helen. I saw myself so much in your descriptions of the cycles. And they can all be very sublte (not always!) which makes it even harder to know where you are at in any given cycle.
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Date: Mon, Apr 09, 2001 at 17:25:22 (GMT)
From: Mark
Email: None
To: Helen
Subject: A BEST ****
Message:
Best analysis of the process since Harvey Keitel in 'Holy Smoke' - before he lost it !
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Date: Mon, Apr 09, 2001 at 21:27:17 (GMT)
From: Helen
Email: None
To: Selene/ Mark
Subject: Selene/mark
Message:
Selene--yeah, the process is subtle, and since the devotee ends up distrusting his/her mind, there is no way to analyze the whole shabang in a coherent way. Pretty smooth way to disempower people, eh?

Mark--haven't seen holy smokes. Is it any good? Kate Winslet is someone I am a big fan of, mainly cause she doesn't starve herself ha ha

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Date: Tues, Apr 10, 2001 at 04:43:22 (GMT)
From: Mark
Email: None
To: Helen
Subject: Selene/mark/Holy Smokes
Message:
All I can say is a very unique movie.On of a kind.
With no pat answers on the cult experience, but worthwhile.
Certainly thought provoking.
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Date: Tues, Apr 10, 2001 at 00:54:33 (GMT)
From: Selene
Email: None
To: Helen
Subject: that movie is SO BAD it's almost good
Message:
One of those. god it's bad. But it almost got there.

I've been on my best behavior all damned day posting like correctly and all (minus typos of course) so I hate to blow my image but I gotta say Kate Winslett gets really kinky and I thought it was a very sexy scene.

Harvey (the deprogrammer) looks like a moron and that is rough coming from me I usually really like him. But I think his doofieness is intentional (?)

selene - cycle 4 or 7 ? of deprogramming still have some clusters of some things around my head.

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Date: Wed, Apr 11, 2001 at 01:21:05 (GMT)
From: Mark
Email: None
To: Selene
Subject: that movie is SO BAD it's almost good
Message:
I agree.
Had its moments
(especially the sex and darshan scenes)
and a bit heavy handed in the end.
But certainly looked at the Juju phenomenon with fresh eyes.
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Date: Wed, Apr 11, 2001 at 15:22:46 (GMT)
From: Richard
Email: None
To: Mark
Subject: I liked the initiation juju and sex scenes also
Message:
I believe Pat C refers to it as shakti-put wherein the guru gives the seeker a flash of energy / light. That was very well done and gave some credibility and rational explanation for those 'unexplainable experiences' I had. I was dissappointed in the route the film took though, wherein the Keitel character transferred his long supressed (?) devotion onto Kate Winslet. Erotic but pitiful.
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Date: Tues, Apr 10, 2001 at 01:22:41 (GMT)
From: Helen
Email: None
To: Selene
Subject: that movie is SO BAD it's almost good
Message:
You think they were trying to make Keitel's character doofy--as in, deprogrammers are kind of doofy? That does seem to be the image. I don't know much about them (deprogrammers) but the image seems sort of like the CIA, covert and not exactly an antidote to the compelling attractions of bliss fixes.
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Date: Tues, Apr 10, 2001 at 02:06:12 (GMT)
From: Selene
Email: None
To: Helen
Subject: deprogrammers
Message:
I haven't even had a friend or acquaintance who's had an encounter with a deprogrammer.
It does seem odd, the kidnapping etc.

Remember how we all feared Ted Patrick wasn't that his name?
I think in my inner self I half hoped he would come out of nowhere and rescue me but you know that brings up an interesting
thought, isn't that the same type of helpless conciousness?

Wonder how successful deprogramming really is?

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Date: Tues, Apr 10, 2001 at 05:01:22 (GMT)
From: Mercedes
Email: None
To: Selene
Subject: deprogrammers
Message:
I don't know much about deprogrammers, deprogramming was banned because it constituted kidnapping. that's another trauma on top of the most recent one of being in a cult. I don't think it really works.

About the movie I really didn't like it, he gets totally triggered into sex addiction with Kate and it all gets out of control from then on. And in the end did she really recovered? Dunno. They had an addictive relationship which continued after they were separated...that was not love at all it was insanity.

Anyway that was my impression of the movie.

Mercedes

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Date: Mon, Apr 09, 2001 at 16:58:14 (GMT)
From: AJW
Email: None
To: Helen
Subject: Excellent posts Helen.
Message:
I find stuff like this really helpful. Your explanation of how we separate from 'our mind' is a real insight into how we came to give up our free will and ended up in a line to kiss Captain Rawats clay feet.

Thanks,

Anth who fell asleep on the train, and doesn't know what stage he's at since he woke up.

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Date: Mon, Apr 09, 2001 at 21:09:01 (GMT)
From: Helen
Email: None
To: AJW
Subject: Excellent posts Helen.
Message:
HA HA. I also lost the plot somewhere along the line and find it hard explaining to people how I came to recognize some guy as the Lord and kiss his feet. My husband says that something like that wasn't on his 'radar screen at all.'
Problem is, it can happen and it did happen. At some point our brains got lazy and we stopped listening to the parts of us telling us to run fer them thar hills!!
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Date: Mon, Apr 09, 2001 at 14:02:00 (GMT)
From: Katie Darling
Email: None
To: Helen
Subject: Yes, yes, yes
Message:
You and I have discussed this stuff quite a bit - the way the mind and body split, and what pernicious results this causes, like chronic illness.

But your analysis, (with its diagrams that can only be seen by the initiates) is very good and clear, and one thing it made me realize is that I split right at the beginning, after 3 days of satsang and receiving knowledge. I had been in a particularly centered place in my life, knowing just what to eat, and doing lots of yoga, and more in touch with myself than ever in my life. Then I remember going and eating a load of crap - not that it's a big deal, but it was different, for me, and a symptom of the split beginning. Then I stopped doing my yoga, which was the thing that had really brought me INTO myself after my dissociated childhood. Then it was all downhill - 'do service all day and all night if you can, and soon you will stand in the palm of his hand' - until I became chronically ill.

As for the recovery cycle: It has seemed to me at times that that 'locus of control' which I projected outwards has been lost to my grasp, regarding my physical health, since that time. But just recently I have felt a deep shift (after two decades of illness). Re-integrating body, mind and emotions has been the key for me. Although the cognitive part (realizing the whole thing was false) was a start, for me the absolute key in my healing has been to consciously re-embrace my body and emotions in various ways. They didn't just come running back like sheep when I exited. I have had to give them quite a bit of attention.

Thanks for this, Helen darling

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Date: Mon, Apr 09, 2001 at 21:13:38 (GMT)
From: Helen
Email: None
To: Katie Darling
Subject: Yes, yes, yes
Message:
YES! Embrace your body. I still have so much anxiety in my muscles. I tell my body, 'I am listening' and the pain calms down. My body is still traumatized from all those years I didn't listen to it, when it was breaking down because I wouldn't take care of myself.
WOW, intersting that the split happened so suddenly with you. It's different for each person I am sure.
Formulating my theory, which is nothing new to any us, but just a conceptualization of it all, has helped me alot.
I'm glad there's been a shift with your health. Me too.
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Date: Mon, Apr 09, 2001 at 15:21:34 (GMT)
From: Mercedes
Email: None
To: Helen and Katie Darling
Subject: Yes, yes, yes
Message:
Helen you wrote:
END POINT OF THE CYCLE--stage 5:
CONGRATULATIONS MAHARAJI!! You have now re-created the world for someone and made him into a zombie. It will possibly take years for this human being to get out of your grip. He or she will possibly be plagued with chronic mental or physical illness
which was set into motion when the mind and body went into a state of splitting and when body systems shut down (a phenomena also called 'hibernation' in fibromyalgia and chronic fatigue research) in an effort to cope with the traumas of cult life.

And Katie thank you too for your insight.

I don't know when my split begun, it was eary on I'm sure. I am realizing now how I gave all my power away to Rev. Rawat and how much I've suffered because of it.
When I left the cult the first time my body was a wreck, totally out of balance. It improved with time and I am still having to be careful with it. The worst for me I think is the damage to my brain chemistry which I am dealing with presently. I am fucked up and yeah I come from a dysfunctional family and maybe that predisposed me to this but the fucking brainwashing performed on us was draconian.
Thank you so very much for these posts.
Love...
Mercedes

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Date: Mon, Apr 09, 2001 at 17:07:50 (GMT)
From: G
Email: None
To: Mercedes
Subject: Yes, yes, yes
Message:
Yes, viewing 'the mind' as 'the other' is part of the trap. For me, a split happened within my mind. Certain thoughts, like those in favor of Rawat, I judged acceptable and not 'the mind', I didn't even view them as thoughts or concepts. Others I labeled 'the mind', no good, bad, evil, regardless of whether they were true or not. Rawat talked about concepts as being bad, but really he didn't mean all concepts, the concepts he was inflicting us with were excluded from this label. He actually fostered 'the mind', the crazyness that he was presumably warning of us.

My reason was telling me something was very wrong with the whole picture. Oh, but that's just 'logic' Rawat said, don't listen to that, just ignore it. What a weird idea, that logic drives you crazy.

So the wheels of reason were turning, but they were not in gear, I would not act based on my reason or the 'negative' emotions that were telling me to get out. A major problem with this is that (IMO) it's impossible to warp your mind like this without it harming your entire mentality.

I remember thinking 'he's a con man, he's crazy'. I even burned a picture of him many years ago, but I wouldn't get out. I moralized and thought that it was 'bad' to not hold him in the highest regard, despite evidence to the contrary. The feelings of guilt enslaved me.

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Date: Mon, Apr 09, 2001 at 21:33:56 (GMT)
From: Helen
Email: None
To: G/Mercedes
Subject: G/Mercedes
Message:
Yes, viewing the mind as other sucks. G, you describe the battle well. The battle was our internal efforts to break free of the incoherent shit in the cult, but we thought the battle was Mr. Mind hurting us. Crazy shit, eh? Mind good, not bad!

Mercedes, I wish you good mental health. It's a lifetime process, the first part for me was to learn how to stop beaing myself up.

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Date: Mon, Apr 09, 2001 at 13:37:03 (GMT)
From: Nigel
Email: nigel@redcrow.demon.co.uk
To: Helen
Subject: Great post, Helen - everyone read.
Message:
I thought you caught it all perfectly, especially that point about the locus of control shifting until it's 'out there' (which relates to a post I did once called 'the illusion of surrendered control'. You've explained really how people like Joan Apter can refer to the wishes of her mind in the third person. Which, come to think of it, is something all premies used to do when giving satsang. God, what a dysfunctional process to put yourself through...
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Date: Mon, Apr 09, 2001 at 21:18:06 (GMT)
From: Helen
Email: None
To: Nigel
Subject: Great post, Helen - everyone read.
Message:
Thanks Nigel!I have been tryign to email you the info you asked for, 2 times, and it bounced back. What am I doing wrong? Did you get the info you needed? I have it.
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Date: Mon, Apr 09, 2001 at 23:12:58 (GMT)
From: Nigel
Email: nigel@redcrow.demon.co.uk
To: Helen
Subject: thanks - I've had mailbox problems
Message:
I think it's either the full moon or (more likely) heavy sunspot activity causing electromagnetic interference...
Anyway, I don't have it yet. Perhaps you could send it to both the above address as well as fitzroy@liverpool.ac.uk.

Thanks,
Nige

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Date: Mon, Apr 09, 2001 at 17:01:33 (GMT)
From: Richard
Email: post@rmi.net
To: Helen
Subject: Great post, Helen - some thoughts
Message:
Absolutely crystal analysis Helen. If you fax me the diagram, I will put it online for all to view.

Some thoughts occurred to me while reading your post.

1.) I believe (at least in my case) before Stage 1 can be successful, the initiate has to be 'baited' or 'distracted'. For the mind/body split to occur, there has to be a 'good' reason. For me it was the uniqueness of a teenage guru combined with helping save the world enhanced by unexplainable transcendantal experiences. For others it was inner peace, salvation, lord of the universe, etc. That 'hook' that got me in the first place stayed with me through all the times I observed all evidence to the contrary. It's the one thing that is the hardest to undo because it is the deepest.

2.) I had a predisposition to wanting to escape my ordinary life and my conflicted mind. A conventional upbringing and profound LSD-inspired awakening left me with many unanswered questions. Satsang answered them all. After my unexplainable trips, any explanation would do.

3.) I agree with your entire analysis. I would add that once the 'locus is put out there', it was only natural to project my hopes and dreams for wholeness on Maharaji. He was the One who was perfect, after all, so why not provide him with everything he wanted and treat him with all the respect I would deserve if I was only whole. I'm shit, he's shinola.

4.) Becoming one's own authority. This was how I made my first break in 1987. For 2 years prior, I did a lot of cathartic physical / emotional work. Once I began owning my successes and mistakes I realized I was my own authority. After that, M appeared as an arrogant authoritarian that made little sense.

An appropriate quote: Burnout is equal to the energy expended trying to convince the world you are someone you are not.

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Date: Mon, Apr 09, 2001 at 21:22:23 (GMT)
From: Helen
Email: None
To: Richard
Subject: Great post, Helen - some thoughts
Message:
Love the burnout quote and love your addition of motivation for giving away one's power as an essential ingredient in the diagram. You are so right. In order for stage 1 to happen (listening to hours of incoherent satsang) there has to be some motivational pull keeping the person from saying 'fuck this bunk.' For me, I was sold on the idea of a guru as the key to enlightenment and heard than M could get me there fastest. Funny how that belief drove me to do totally irrational things.

Thanks for that, I will add that to the theory--if you don't mind!

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Date: Mon, Apr 09, 2001 at 21:43:50 (GMT)
From: Helen
Email: None
To: Richard and everyone
Subject: a question for Richard
Message:
There needs to be another stage before stage 5, the precipitating event when the devotee starts listening to himself again and reclaiming his/her emotions, thoughts and feelings--the drip, drip, drip experience that Anth talked about in his journey. The process of reclaiming one's self can take years. Someone might still call themselves a premie, but be embracing parts of himself or herself, or doubting M in a big way, even in secrecy (not sharing it with other premies). I'd also like to incorporate something like Kohlberg's stages of moral development in my theory because I think that in the process of leaving M, people have a sort of moral crisis. If they can work through that, I think they actually can achieve a higher level of moral development.

I'm just having fun here and have no desire to write a dissertation on this or anything! It's just fun for me, to articulate this stuff. It's part of the healing process for me and for many of us here. If we can articulate what happened to us, and name it, we can understand it. And that is the key.

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Date: Tues, Apr 10, 2001 at 00:18:15 (GMT)
From: Richard
Email: None
To: Helen
Subject: Precipitation not Participation
Message:
There needs to be another stage before stage 5, the precipitating event when the devotee starts listening to himself again and reclaiming his/her emotions, thoughts and feelings--the drip, drip, drip experience that Anth talked about in his journey.

I think you mean 'after' stage 5. Excellent idea again. This whole treatise really should be ironed out and kept as a permanent document. After all we were the lab rats in this experiment.

For me, all the doubts (drips) kept accumulating but until I chose to be my own authority, my belief in M as the Authority (big 'A') was firm. I just stopped practicing K and seeing M but never really broke the spell. That takes a definitive act (or acts) of turning away. One big way for me was to begin posting on Forum V. Even though I had 'left M & K' in 1986 or so, I reclaimed my authority completely by publicly stating that. It was amazing how much residual unknown fear was released the day I posted under my real name.

For others there may be a big 'ah-ha' where it all becomes clear in one swell foop followed by a public declaration or letter to M.

So there must be a questioning phase followed by getting answers followed by a definitive break. This could take days or years depending on the individual.

Precipitation not Participation

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Date: Tues, Apr 10, 2001 at 01:29:56 (GMT)
From: Helen
Email: None
To: Richard
Subject: Precipitation not Participation
Message:
And interaction with others seems critical. The support of others and being able to tell them exactly what you are going through, seems to be a big part of breaking loose and getting free. Cults, like dictatorships, rely in being information vacuums, and controlling whatever information gets desseminated. So being able to share information is essential to the waking up process. The Internet is great for that--for taking apart all the prevarications and the myths of Maharaji's little camelot and helping us all see who he really is.

There is a lot of fear for people posting their names and venting their anger here. But it really feels good too.

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Date: Mon, Apr 09, 2001 at 20:49:21 (GMT)
From: Lesley
Email: None
To: Helen
Subject: Yes, 'crystal analysis', Helen
Message:
Recently, I was horrifyingly awestruck at having 'lost my faith', now it looks more like I lost my faith at eighteen, and have just regained my faith, my faith in myself.
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Date: Mon, Apr 09, 2001 at 21:24:11 (GMT)
From: Helen
Email: None
To: Lesley
Subject: great to hear it,, Lesley!
Message:
Without faith in oneself there is nothing, nada, zip. I am getting glimpses of that too, for me, and it feels great!
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Date: Sun, Apr 08, 2001 at 21:58:23 (GMT)
From: Peter
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: Pity rather than anger?
Message:
Hi there

Discovering ex-premie org has been recently new for me. However, I have over the years often wondered where all the premies had gone, since their cetainly not at satsang evenings anymore! Those evenings in Leeds are only attended by a smattering of diehards, or those haplessly searching for something. But over the years there must have been hundreds initiated from Leeds alone? With such a drop out rate its not what you would call a success story!

However, my main point for writing is to say, that whilst I am new to ex-premie org I have monitored many of the postings for awhile now. And I whilst can understand the disappointment many feel that Maharaji turned out to be only human after all, and one with such disturbing failings. Nevertheless, surely all the anger only disempowers us and keep us trapped by his power. I would suggest that pity is perhaps a more appropriate response.

Since if Maharaji fell from grace along the way it was only from the pedestal we had put him upon. We gave him the power over us!I personally hold no malice towards him, in fact, if all is true that has recently been revealed, then surely he is more the victim of his own deception than ever we could’ve been from the spiritual sham he perpetrated. Since we are now free of the deception, whilst for many others under the spell the illusion lives on, and on, and on.

I recognise that it is important to deter wherever possible those who might naively fall foul of the lure, or to help and assist those who take the courageous step of breaking free. Since for evil to succeed good people only have to do nothing at all! But the anger only makes us look malicious and spitefull, rather we should have pity. One day Maharaji will need to face himself...

Still I do enjoy the more humorous tone to some of the postings.

Peter.

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Date: Mon, Apr 09, 2001 at 20:43:24 (GMT)
From: cq
Email: None
To: Peter
Subject: On reclaiming your ability to feel anger -
Message:
Peter, this may sound harsh, but try at least to take it in the spirit in which it's meant:

You need to able to feel anger. Not just you, - everyone. Anger is a natural part of being human, and it has a purpose. You might disagree, but consider this:

any teacher that tries to dissociate you from your ability to feel anger (or from any other emotion that is your natural human birthright) - is out to weaken you, though they'll probably claim the opposite.


There are those of us who have seen that there are 'thieves in the temple' - and for us, anger is real, and it needs expression.

Dissociation from reality is often a gradual process. If you've been involved with Maharaji for any length of time, it will doubtless come as surprise to you to be asked to consider that you have been involved with dissociating yourself from the one thing you thought you were attaining.

The fact is, for all his talk of finding your 'true reality' and your 'true self', Maharaji entraps people into a belief-system that is more about losing touch with the reality of the wholeness - the totality - of their true self.

.
.
.
You say 'surely all the anger only disempowers us and keep us trapped by his power'

No, Peter.

Reclaiming our ability to feel anger is a major part of re-empowering ourselves to be ourselves. Our whole selves.

The Maha's power was in persuading us ever-so docile, humble, adoring, mindless sheep to keep AWAY from owning our anger. Getting the flock to be dependent on him and his so-called 'grace' was his motive. It is not the way of the true seeker.

.
.
.

One final thing:

You say of yourself that even though you are 'new to ex-premie org I have monitored many of the postings for awhile now'


Excuse me?

You're new here, yet you've 'monitored' many of the postings?

Well, OK, though it sounds like you're a former EV monitor, welcome, nonetheless.

I was a devotee myself, once.

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Date: Mon, Apr 09, 2001 at 23:33:55 (GMT)
From: moldy warp
Email: None
To: cq
Subject: cq- very good points nt
Message:
x
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Date: Mon, Apr 09, 2001 at 19:07:29 (GMT)
From: Peter
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: Pity rather than anger, perhaps not!
Message:
As I began.. I am new to the ex-premie forum, indeed, I have had very little contact with premies since I walked away around about 1980. Except, I sometimes found myself wandering back to a programme here or there, since the whole thing is a bit like a bad smell, it lingers awhile! Or untill it finally sunk in to me just how empty it all really was.

Anyway, I suppose that since it is now over twenty years since I began to break away, and that so much more has happened in my life that I now rarely give M a thought. I must admit though that whilst I did not get too hurt myself, I should've recognised that others felt more strongly. Perhaps pity is far too much...

Many thanks for reading my posting and for your responses. I will continue to keep in touch.

Peter.

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Date: Mon, Apr 09, 2001 at 12:15:12 (GMT)
From: Katie H.
Email: None
To: Peter
Subject: Anger is OK, but we are not all angry
Message:
Hi Pete -
I understand your point, but I see this forum more as a place for the people who have found it to express how they are feeling, than as a public information site. Frankly, I don't care very much what the general public thinks of the forum. The rest of the site is there for public information - the forum can be used for people to say how they are feeling - whatever that is. And a LOT of the people here ARE very angry - especially after years of suppressing it, and I believe it's important for them to be able to get angry at Maharaji, and to say so in public. I think it is part of the separation process, and is, in fact, EMPOWERING, if we don't get stuck in it.

Keep in mind that there are people posting here who were involved for 20 years or more, and are just now reclaiming their life - and it is quite liberating for them to be able to express negative feelings about Maharaji. I'd rather see these people be able to express anger here than worry about the risk of turning off some unknown readers, if you understand what I mean.

I am not personally angry at Maharaji anymore - most of the time (sometimes I read something on the forum about how a person was ill-treated and DO get very angry for a while.) I don't really pity him much either though - although I am glad I am NOT him. I don't really feel that he is the victim of his own deception - or at least that he is an UNWILLING victim of his own deception. A lot of the posters here have overcome far worse things - I don't see that Maharaji has tried very hard to change himself, or to stop victimizing other people because of his own delusions. I also do not believe that we put him on the pedestal - he put himself there. Maybe we helped keep him there, but he was a willing participant, and he still is.

Take care,
Katie

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Date: Mon, Apr 09, 2001 at 20:23:49 (GMT)
From: Bin Liner
Email: None
To: Katie H.
Subject: Well said Katie , I'm only sporadically ...
Message:

...angry myself , but as far as the pity goes no way .

He's done rather well for himself whatever his state of mind might be .

If he ever ends up in a tent on a freezing mountainside due to his 'life-choices ', then I' ll reconsider .

In the meantime fuck him .

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Date: Mon, Apr 09, 2001 at 10:47:13 (GMT)
From: Bryn
Email: Bryndaviesesq@hotmail.com
To: Peter
Subject: Pity rather than anger?
Message:
Hello Pete. Nice to hear your ten cents worth. I don't go near Leeds any more. It makes me actually tremble to recollect the place! What a total mind-fuck it all was. Feel free to email, and I'll read your posts when ever I'm on.
Phew, I'm afraid I am slipping into the past now . AAAArgh.
love Bryn
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Date: Mon, Apr 09, 2001 at 08:40:47 (GMT)
From: Nigel
Email: nigel@redcrow.demon.co.uk
To: Peter
Subject: Pity rather than anger? - not a matter of choice
Message:
Discovering ex-premie org has been recently new for me. However, I have over the years often wondered where all the premies had gone, since their cetainly not at satsang evenings anymore! Those evenings in Leeds are only attended by a smattering of diehards, or those haplessly searching for something. But over the years there must have been hundreds initiated from Leeds alone? With such a drop out rate its not what you would call a success story!
However, my main point for writing is to say, that whilst I am new to ex-premie org I have monitored many of the postings for awhile now. And I whilst can understand the disappointment many feel that Maharaji turned out to be only human after all, and one with such disturbing failings. Nevertheless, surely all the anger only disempowers us and keep us trapped by his power. I would suggest that pity is perhaps a more appropriate response.
Since if Maharaji fell from grace along the way it was only from the pedestal we had put him upon. We gave him the power over us!I personally hold no malice towards him, in fact, if all is true that has recently been revealed, then surely he is more the victim of his own deception than ever we could’ve been from the spiritual sham he perpetrated. Since we are now free of the deception, whilst for many others under the spell the illusion lives on, and on, and on.
I recognise that it is important to deter wherever possible those who might naively fall foul of the lure, or to help and assist those who take the courageous step of breaking free. Since for evil to succeed good people only have to do nothing at all! But the anger only makes us look malicious and spitefull, rather we should have pity. One day Maharaji will need to face himself...
Still I do enjoy the more humorous tone to some of the postings.

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>.

Hi Pete,

Two points: you write as if anger were an attitude rather than a natural reaction to being conned by a mind-fucker. Yes, there are some angry posts here – or, more true to say, some people’s posts express varying degrees of anger, some of the time. It’s an emotion, that’s all – just like pity is an emotion – and anger (or pity) may be triggered by any number of factors: painful memories, scandalous behaviour covered up, latest news of M’s ongoing money-grabbing scam, feelings of empathy for others’ posts etc.

You prefer to pity M, apparently – which is your prerogative - but can you really decide what to feel at any given moment? And if not, why presume to dictate to others how they should be feeling?

My other point is: what’s wrong with anger, anyway? You say it makes us look ‘malicious and spiteful’. I disagree (and who exactly are ‘we’? - and who's judgement should we worry about?)

Spite is spite, malice is malice and anger is anger. Why confuse them? Anger can be, and often, ought to be, the most natural and appropriate response, as Lesley says, to spark the necessary changes, whether on a personal level or in taking necessary action to help others still caught in the cult-snare. Anger prompted me to write my ‘journeys’ entry, which several people have since told me helped them reframe their own involvement and get the hell out - which was a great feeling, and went some way to compensating for my regret about getting others involved in the first place. Far from being 'disempowering', I'd say the opposite is frequently true.

Anyway, I doubt anybody logs on here to get angry. My overriding sensations when reading the forum are of amusement and fascination – but then you stumble on, say, the child-abuse saga and evidence of M’s failure to deal with the problem when first informed… then what? What are you supposed to feel? What do you feel, Pete?

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Date: Mon, Apr 09, 2001 at 07:35:41 (GMT)
From: AJW
Email: None
To: Peter
Subject: No more Mr Nice Guy.
Message:
Hi Peter,

I think I felt like you when I first quit. But after two and a half years my attitude changed.

When I first left the cult, I wrote my Journey and put it on EPO. I think it reflected your attitude. I saw the Captain more as a victim than a perpetrator. However, my attitudes have changed since then.

Last week I sent the second part of my Journey, 'No More Mr Nice Guy,' to Brian, to put up on EPO. This explains, in detail, why my attitude has changed.

I'm not smart enough to put up a link, so you'll have to go to Ex-Premie.org, from the top of the page, then go to the Journeys.

Anth, the blatant self-publicist

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Date: Mon, Apr 09, 2001 at 07:51:37 (GMT)
From: PatC
Email: None
To: AJW
Subject: Is Part 2, No more Mr Nice Guy, online yet? NT
Message:
j
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Date: Mon, Apr 09, 2001 at 08:02:18 (GMT)
From: AJW
Email: None
To: PatC
Subject: Yes, Brian put it up a couple of days ago.
Message:
It's been added on to the back of the first part of my Journey.

Some bedtime reading Pat. Let me know what you think.

When are you going to write yours?

Anth the long and winding road

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Date: Mon, Apr 09, 2001 at 08:54:41 (GMT)
From: Connie
Email: None
To: AJW
Subject: Just read part 2 Anth
Message:
Yours was one of the first journeys I read. I could relate to it, plus laugh at myself in a very turmoiled time.

Part 2 is a worthy appendix.

Who knows, by 2010 might be up to part V1, just like the Rocky movies. You too could have been a contender (ha ha).

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Date: Mon, Apr 09, 2001 at 17:07:10 (GMT)
From: AJW
Email: None
To: Connie
Subject: Hi Connie.
Message:
Thanks for your comments.

If everything goes to plan, the Journey Part VI will be written by a ghost writer, and I'll buy half of Scotland with the advance on Royalties.

Anth, Just Another Bimbo Waiting to Be Discovered.

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Date: Mon, Apr 09, 2001 at 16:11:48 (GMT)
From: Mercedes
Email: None
To: AJW
Subject: Part 2
Message:
I am with you Anth, right now I feel I am in the anger stage. I touch on it sporadically though.
I left the cult before in '88 and walked back in in '95. During that time I didn't dare to feel anger towards Cap. Rawat.
Now in '01 I walked out for the last time and boy I am angry. He sucked the lifeforce out of me and many others. As a result I am now faced with the fact that I have to start all over again.
F@#*!!!! You Cap. Rawat you stinking SOB....
I guess I am getting in touch with my anger right now.

Thank you Anth..

Mercedes

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Date: Mon, Apr 09, 2001 at 19:18:48 (GMT)
From: Selene
Email: None
To: Mercedes
Subject: wasn't it strange to go back?
Message:
I did a very similar thing time-wise. And at first when I went back in the 90s I got totally into it, 'blissed out' even.
Then as time went on it just got worse and worse, the yard sales or whatever they were in the halls with his pics, etc.. the changing of the lyrics from songs I remembered, so strange.
I suppose you could say we were lucky we did remember the old stuff so we had some perspective (?)
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Date: Mon, Apr 09, 2001 at 08:08:47 (GMT)
From: PatC
Email: None
To: AJW
Subject: Thanks, Anth. Yes, that's my bedtime reading
Message:
I wish you an easy but exciting day with at least one pleasant surprise. I am writing it. But I need to stop writing on FV for instant gratification and finish it in solitude. That's hard for a social butterfly. Now onto your Journey Pt ll. Yum-yum.
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Date: Mon, Apr 09, 2001 at 08:38:43 (GMT)
From: PatC
Email: None
To: PatC
Subject: Okay, just read Part Two and you're still
Message:
Mr Nice Guy but maybe even nicer.
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Date: Mon, Apr 09, 2001 at 09:47:37 (GMT)
From: AJW
Email: None
To: PatC
Subject: Shit.
Message:
I guess I need to work on it a bit. Maybe if I joined an extreme right-wing political group or something.

Comrade Anth with Lemonade in his Petrol Bomb and Water in his Pistol.

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Date: Wed, Apr 11, 2001 at 05:26:20 (GMT)
From: Roy
Email: z
To: AJW
Subject: anth the mench part 2 - a double ovation nt
Message:
z
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Date: Mon, Apr 09, 2001 at 04:34:33 (GMT)
From: JHB
Email: None
To: Peter
Subject: Pity rather than anger?
Message:
In addition to the other responses I would also add that I think your your generalisation that we are all angry here is way off the mark. Although I have felt some anger during the two years since I left, it hasn't been the dominant emotion, and definitely isn't now. That's a feeling of being stupid for falling for the con in the first place. But pity? No I can't find any pity for him either.

Also, he certainly put himself on the pedestal by claim like 'I have come with more power than ever before', and countless other quotes.

John.

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Date: Mon, Apr 09, 2001 at 02:26:18 (GMT)
From: Gregg
Email: None
To: Peter
Subject: Pieta (Mata Ji holding Maharaj Ji?)
Message:
Hi Peter.
I was less hurt by the cult than many, so I would mostly agree with you. Others might disagree.

Maharaji was a victim of his upbringing. Just as many child abusers were abused as children themselves and thus deserve our pity - as well as our anger for not taking it upon themselves to take responsibility for their wounds and to avoid hurting others. It is a very sad cycle.

Not that the Satguru cycle is likely to be repeated too long!

However, I wouldn't agree with this statement of yours:

'Nevertheless, surely all the anger only disempowers us and
keep us trapped by his power.'

Anger helps some of us. His power is only over his devotees. They are the ones who are to be pitied.

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Date: Mon, Apr 09, 2001 at 00:08:09 (GMT)
From: Bazza
Email: None
To: Peter
Subject: Disagree with you Peter
Message:
Since if Maharaji fell from grace along the way it was only from the pedestal we had put him upon.

I joined the cult in 1977 and not only was maharaji already firmly planted atop the pedestal, I soon learnt that he designed, built and decorated it himself.

I don't care how young he was then, he isn't stupid and knew what the score was. He clearly enjoyed the trappings of being Perfect Master and wasn't about to rock his own boat.

It's to your credit that you feel so magnanimous (sp?) toward him, but IMO he neither needs nor deserves your goodwill. Save it for the abused children, those whose careers and future security were wrecked, the sincere seekers who prematurely abandoned their search for Truth and most of all, the remaining cult 'diehards' who have yet to wake up and smell the coffee.

bazza
(Barry Shaw)

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Date: Sun, Apr 08, 2001 at 23:32:02 (GMT)
From: PatC
Email: None
To: Peter
Subject: Pity rather than anger? The high road!
Message:
I agree with you. Having pity on him is what I often feel for him when I think of the things he has sacrificed on the way: the friendship, trust and respect he could have had from the best people of our generation being the most important.

But every now and then I get quite angry at having been lied to. I don't think he knew that he was lying to us in the beginning but I know for sure that he now knows that he is conning people. That is very naughty and deserving of a big slap which I prefer to deliver in the form of mockery. Rev Rawat really is more laughable than sinister.

But honestly Pete, wouldn't you like to squelch a pie in his smug face or put some itching powder in his silk panties just once?

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Date: Sun, Apr 08, 2001 at 23:01:04 (GMT)
From: Lesley
Email: None
To: Peter
Subject: Pity rather than anger?
Message:
The good thing about getting angry is that it energises you to make the necessary changes, and that feels good. One of the first things I did was cancel my monthly donation, but I didn't take down the photo for a while, I didn't want to travel so far in anger that I forgot my past.

I have yet to feel pity for Maharaji since I stopped being an empathetic devotee, I can't imagine that I ever would, unless he took the unprecedented step of actually talking to us, and actually elicited it.

Regards, Lesley

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Date: Sun, Apr 08, 2001 at 22:37:52 (GMT)
From: Kev
Email: None
To: Peter
Subject: Pity rather than anger?
Message:
Hi Peter

Well I mostly agree with you the that we should have pity for m I think we should always remember that we are the main victims of m's years of lies and deception he has fed us in the past. You say in your post 'Since if Maharaji fell from grace along the way it was only from the pedestal we had put him upon' yes it is true we did put on a pedestal but please let us not forget it was him who Lorded it over us and made us feel so lowly and small.

So my main point is Peter, yes it is ok to feel sorry for m but we must never forget that we are the victims of his abuse of power over us.

Best wishes and welcome to the forum,

Kev

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Date: Sun, Apr 08, 2001 at 23:18:54 (GMT)
From: Selene
Email: None
To: Kev
Subject: I don't feel sorry for him
Message:
It's not up to me to say how anyone else goes about exiting the cult. If feeling pity for M helps fine.

I can't find any reason to pity him except the general compassion we are supposed to feel toward those who are messed up. And that is a personal case by case choice, for me.
And then there is the theory that we heal faster if we forgive those who have harmed us, directly or through neglect.
but that is too general for me.
I have seen in my life that forgiveness is healing stuff .
I believe in it as an internal process and very personal to an individual. I have to go at my own pace.

Where has he publically given any apology or compensation? Did I miss it?

He continues to benefit greatly financially from his position of psuedo-superiority and has done nothing to change that concept of himself as a charismatic leader except to change the spin and most of his core followers are from his Lord of the Universe era.
That in and of itself keeps me from feeling compassion for him.

It's ok if others want to pity him. Or offer him the chance to somehow (can't imagine how) compensate. But I'll need a bit more to go on before I can get there.

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Date: Mon, Apr 09, 2001 at 00:18:00 (GMT)
From: Bazza
Email: None
To: Selene
Subject: Good point selene
Message:
It's a nice human trait to feel pity for wrong-doers, but that usually comes after they have STOPPED the wrong-doing and expressed remorse. This ass-hole is still at it and shows no signs of giving it up - I mean you have to know when you're busted, right?!
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