Abi -:- OPEN LETTER TO MAHARAJI -:- Sun, Apr 15, 2001 at 00:35:06 (GMT)

__ AJW -:- OPEN LETTER TO MAHARAJI -:- Tues, Apr 17, 2001 at 12:37:58 (GMT)

__ Joe -:- Huh? -:- Mon, Apr 16, 2001 at 03:05:38 (GMT)

__ __ Jim -:- Joe, it IS progress -:- Mon, Apr 16, 2001 at 03:15:02 (GMT)

__ __ __ Joe -:- What kind of progress? TINY, if any. -:- Mon, Apr 16, 2001 at 03:29:37 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ Jim -:- Are you kidding? I'm on the edge of going back! -:- Mon, Apr 16, 2001 at 08:25:07 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ Joe -:- Are you kidding? -:- Mon, Apr 16, 2001 at 17:21:24 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ Jim -:- No, not kidding at all -:- Mon, Apr 16, 2001 at 17:41:27 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Joe -:- Shortsighted, Jim -:- Mon, Apr 16, 2001 at 20:46:15 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ JHB -:- Shortsighted, Jim -:- Mon, Apr 16, 2001 at 21:51:10 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Joe -:- Shortsighted, Jim -:- Tues, Apr 17, 2001 at 16:04:11 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ JHB -:- Well, you sound like a defector -:- Tues, Apr 17, 2001 at 16:22:04 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Jim -:- Right, John, this is a fight we can win -:- Mon, Apr 16, 2001 at 21:59:33 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Jim -:- Well, we'll just see now, won't we? -:- Mon, Apr 16, 2001 at 21:46:09 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Joe -:- Buy what? -:- Mon, Apr 16, 2001 at 22:17:19 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Jim -:- OK, what would you suggest? -:- Mon, Apr 16, 2001 at 22:58:47 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Joe -:- What I suggest... -:- Tues, Apr 17, 2001 at 16:00:32 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Francesca -:- This is why I threw up my hands -:- Mon, Apr 16, 2001 at 23:33:04 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Jim -:- This is why I threw up my hands -:- Mon, Apr 16, 2001 at 23:38:07 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Francesca -:- Actually nothing more than we are ... -:- Tues, Apr 17, 2001 at 04:30:02 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Joe -:- People getting out... -:- Tues, Apr 17, 2001 at 16:07:10 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Bin Liner -:- That was true for me Joe ...A residual (nt) -:- Tues, Apr 17, 2001 at 19:56:15 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ Richard -:- What is the 'Turner Argument'? -:- Mon, Apr 16, 2001 at 15:06:17 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ Jim -:- The 'Turner Argument' -:- Mon, Apr 16, 2001 at 17:07:33 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Richard -:- M's prescription = MahaViagra for Omnimpotence! nt -:- Mon, Apr 16, 2001 at 22:24:27 (GMT)

__ Francesca -:- Maharaji is a coward and a liar -:- Sun, Apr 15, 2001 at 06:43:44 (GMT)

__ __ Cynthia -:- Maharaji is a coward and a liar -:- Sun, Apr 15, 2001 at 21:06:03 (GMT)

__ __ __ Francesca -:- Thanks for the confirmation and the concern -:- Sun, Apr 15, 2001 at 23:19:41 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ Susan -:- Thanks for the confirmation and the concern -:- Mon, Apr 16, 2001 at 02:23:40 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ Jim -:- Don't worry about Abi -:- Mon, Apr 16, 2001 at 01:25:33 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ Susan -:- I agree, Abi is no one's fool -:- Mon, Apr 16, 2001 at 02:11:19 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ Francesca -:- Susan and Jim, thanks for the clarification -:- Mon, Apr 16, 2001 at 17:52:48 (GMT)

__ __ PatC -:- Maharaji is a two-faced fake and fraud -:- Sun, Apr 15, 2001 at 09:03:14 (GMT)

__ janet -:- kill the scapegoat,bypass the capo -:- Sun, Apr 15, 2001 at 06:31:22 (GMT)

__ Jim -:- The real implications of this: bye, bye, Turner -:- Sun, Apr 15, 2001 at 05:33:59 (GMT)

__ __ Susan -:- Jim you are brilliant -:- Sun, Apr 15, 2001 at 14:42:45 (GMT)

__ Pat Conlon -:- What a lying, cheating sonofabitch, Rawat is! -:- Sun, Apr 15, 2001 at 04:59:13 (GMT)

__ Sir Dave -:- OPEN LETTER TO MAHARAJI -:- Sun, Apr 15, 2001 at 04:12:13 (GMT)

__ __ Jim -:- I think you're missing the point completely, Dave -:- Sun, Apr 15, 2001 at 04:54:30 (GMT)

__ __ __ Sir Dave -:- I think you're missing the point completely, Jim -:- Sun, Apr 15, 2001 at 11:21:46 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ Jim -:- You have to minimize and exaggerate to get there -:- Sun, Apr 15, 2001 at 16:31:17 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ Katie H -:- Collective bad memory -:- Sun, Apr 15, 2001 at 16:58:44 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ Joy -:- Collective bad memory -:- Sun, Apr 15, 2001 at 19:28:09 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Katie Darling -:- Collective bad memory -:- Mon, Apr 16, 2001 at 00:32:10 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Jim -:- Calling All Jagdeo Watchers! -:- Mon, Apr 16, 2001 at 01:05:33 (GMT)

__ __ __ PatC -:- Exactly!! -:- Sun, Apr 15, 2001 at 05:05:11 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ bill- -:- yup -:- Sun, Apr 15, 2001 at 12:39:30 (GMT)

__ bill -:- prem rawat IS elanvital...he was backed into a -:- Sun, Apr 15, 2001 at 03:33:08 (GMT)

__ __ Susan -:- agree -:- Sun, Apr 15, 2001 at 03:40:07 (GMT)

__ Joey -:- A couple q's and comments -:- Sun, Apr 15, 2001 at 02:14:50 (GMT)

__ Bin Liner -:- Well done Abi , you got through ...... -:- Sun, Apr 15, 2001 at 01:41:15 (GMT)

__ Susan -:- Abi, I hope that M will follow through -:- Sun, Apr 15, 2001 at 00:52:33 (GMT)

__ __ Katie H. -:- Susan, I do too - trying to understand -:- Sun, Apr 15, 2001 at 15:02:40 (GMT)

__ __ __ Helen -:- Susan, I do too - trying to understand -:- Sun, Apr 15, 2001 at 15:25:16 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ Katie H -:- Thanks Helen - but don't get me started! :) -:- Sun, Apr 15, 2001 at 15:33:08 (GMT)

__ __ Susan -:- also, I am getting freaky phone calls -:- Sun, Apr 15, 2001 at 01:24:56 (GMT)

__ __ __ Bazza -:- Report it to the cops -:- Sun, Apr 15, 2001 at 04:16:58 (GMT)

__ __ __ Abi -:- also, I am getting freaky phone calls -:- Sun, Apr 15, 2001 at 01:48:57 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ Susan -:- whoever it is -:- Sun, Apr 15, 2001 at 02:03:47 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ Bazza -:- star 69 -:- Sun, Apr 15, 2001 at 04:21:29 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ G -:- Any advice for Susan?, call trace -:- Sun, Apr 15, 2001 at 02:29:54 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ Susan -:- Since I posted it has stopped -:- Sun, Apr 15, 2001 at 04:59:43 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Selene -:- not surprised it stopped -:- Sun, Apr 15, 2001 at 05:08:15 (GMT)

__ __ Richard -:- Abi, some questions -:- Sun, Apr 15, 2001 at 01:10:49 (GMT)

__ __ __ Abi -:- Abi, some questions -:- Sun, Apr 15, 2001 at 01:55:42 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ FoMF (or whatever) -:- Abi, some questions -:- Sun, Apr 15, 2001 at 02:53:57 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ michael donner -:- Abi, some questions -:- Mon, Apr 16, 2001 at 03:40:53 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ Bazza -:- Why don't you... -:- Sun, Apr 15, 2001 at 04:27:42 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ Susan -:- a concern FoMF -:- Sun, Apr 15, 2001 at 03:38:12 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ PatC -:- Susan, you summed it up completely -:- Sun, Apr 15, 2001 at 09:25:54 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ FoMF (or whatever) -:- a concern FoMF -:- Sun, Apr 15, 2001 at 04:22:59 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Jim Sander -:- FOMF-would you consider answering my post? -:- Sun, Apr 15, 2001 at 20:06:31 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Jerry -:- Are you happy, now? -:- Sun, Apr 15, 2001 at 15:03:12 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ fomf -:- Are you happy, now? -:- Sun, Apr 15, 2001 at 18:00:24 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Abi -:- Thank you -:- Mon, Apr 16, 2001 at 13:24:41 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Jerry -:- Are you happy, now? -:- Sun, Apr 15, 2001 at 20:36:43 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ kev -:- The bigger picture-FoMF -:- Sun, Apr 15, 2001 at 12:33:57 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ PatC -:- and the biggest lie of all: ''M is not EV'' NT -:- Sun, Apr 15, 2001 at 19:06:00 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Selene -:- a concern FoMF -:- Sun, Apr 15, 2001 at 05:22:09 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Bazza -:- Great minds....... -:- Sun, Apr 15, 2001 at 05:46:59 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Selene -:- Great minds.......oh just read it -:- Sun, Apr 15, 2001 at 05:51:24 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Bazza -:- At the risk of labouring the point... -:- Sun, Apr 15, 2001 at 05:07:41 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Chuck Sprague -:- Excellent, Bazza! (nt) -:- Sun, Apr 15, 2001 at 18:35:23 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ PatC -:- Mike Finch should be ashamed of this friend -:- Sun, Apr 15, 2001 at 09:31:28 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Moldy Warp -:- Pat - did you get my email?! (ot)(nt) -:- Sun, Apr 15, 2001 at 15:51:37 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ PatC -:- Yes, Moldy, but mine to you bounced this a.m. -:- Sun, Apr 15, 2001 at 17:33:55 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Moldy Warp -:- Check mailbox again please...(nt) -:- Sun, Apr 15, 2001 at 20:25:37 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ PatC -:- Okay, I will (nt) -:- Sun, Apr 15, 2001 at 21:07:17 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Nigel -:- Exactly, Bazza.... -:- Sun, Apr 15, 2001 at 09:00:35 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Jim -:- That's not quite right, FoMF (if you're still here -:- Sun, Apr 15, 2001 at 05:02:06 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Abi's Big Sister -:- Valerio -:- Sun, Apr 15, 2001 at 08:29:40 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Ian Dury -:- Valerio - M's lawyer - that says it all! (nt) -:- Sun, Apr 15, 2001 at 13:52:13 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Ian Dury -:- Sorry - Valerio - brother of M's lawyer (nt) -:- Sun, Apr 15, 2001 at 19:13:39 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ donner -:- Sorry - Valerio - brother of M's lawyer (nt) -:- Mon, Apr 16, 2001 at 03:23:55 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ bill -:- rawat's right hand mafia.... (nt) -:- Mon, Apr 16, 2001 at 20:49:34 (GMT)

Ulf -:- Going on -:- Sat, Apr 14, 2001 at 21:44:21 (GMT)

__ Katie H -:- Going on -:- Sun, Apr 15, 2001 at 14:34:22 (GMT)

__ Bryn -:- Going on -:- Sun, Apr 15, 2001 at 12:51:18 (GMT)

__ Mercedes -:- I was just thinking... -:- Sun, Apr 15, 2001 at 02:06:51 (GMT)

__ Abi -:- Going on -:- Sun, Apr 15, 2001 at 00:02:04 (GMT)

__ Selene -:- it slowly gets better -:- Sat, Apr 14, 2001 at 23:04:15 (GMT)

__ Jim -:- It's a real issue, Ulf -- no question about it -:- Sat, Apr 14, 2001 at 21:50:16 (GMT)

__ __ JHB -:- I agree, but my problem is that.... -:- Sat, Apr 14, 2001 at 22:20:31 (GMT)

__ __ __ PatC -:- It's more embarassing for those who left recently -:- Sat, Apr 14, 2001 at 23:46:20 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ Selene -:- I forgot that part in my post to Ulf -:- Sat, Apr 14, 2001 at 23:52:30 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ Katie H -:- Really important, Selene -:- Sun, Apr 15, 2001 at 15:55:21 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ Selene -:- Really important - agree -:- Sun, Apr 15, 2001 at 20:04:58 (GMT)

__ __ __ Zelda -:- it sort is part of your biographical CV -:- Sat, Apr 14, 2001 at 22:44:39 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ Ulf -:- Thank you -:- Sun, Apr 15, 2001 at 17:59:44 (GMT)

Abi's Big Sister -:- EPO: Well financed, international organization -:- Sat, Apr 14, 2001 at 17:17:30 (GMT)

__ janet -:- I SAY-YOURE DELUSIONAL AGAIN TAKE YOUR MEDS -:- Sun, Apr 15, 2001 at 04:01:27 (GMT)

__ Sir Dave -:- EPO: Well financed, international organization -:- Sat, Apr 14, 2001 at 19:45:27 (GMT)

__ __ Abi's Big Sister -:- EPO: Well financed, international organization -:- Sat, Apr 14, 2001 at 20:24:37 (GMT)

__ __ __ Jean-Michel -:- They have to rationalyze it some way -:- Sat, Apr 14, 2001 at 20:41:38 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ Katie H -:- Don't I wish this was true! (snicker) -:- Sun, Apr 15, 2001 at 15:11:45 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ Susan -:- yes, that the Miragey has so many ex's money? -:- Sun, Apr 15, 2001 at 00:41:46 (GMT)

__ Kelly -:- I'd like to offer my services as Treasurer -:- Sat, Apr 14, 2001 at 19:44:36 (GMT)

__ salam -:- what about the dimples? -:- Sat, Apr 14, 2001 at 17:43:07 (GMT)

__ __ Selene -:- what about the dimples? -:- Sat, Apr 14, 2001 at 18:14:01 (GMT)

__ __ __ sean -:- What about my missing fingers? -:- Sun, Apr 15, 2001 at 05:07:55 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ Selene -:- I didn't even know there was a handshake -:- Sun, Apr 15, 2001 at 05:12:24 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ sean -:- Didn't you get the manual? -:- Mon, Apr 16, 2001 at 00:59:59 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ Selene -:- no I never will -:- Mon, Apr 16, 2001 at 01:15:54 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ janet -:- yo-we got gang signs, 2? word up, homies! -:- Sun, Apr 15, 2001 at 07:23:28 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ salam -:- please tell me what's the object of the discussion -:- Sun, Apr 15, 2001 at 09:27:14 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Selene -:- don't think it's object oriented Salam -:- Sun, Apr 15, 2001 at 23:56:56 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Salam -:- If it is not an Oop then it's a Noop -:- Mon, Apr 16, 2001 at 00:20:39 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Selene -:- Noop -:- Mon, Apr 16, 2001 at 00:31:20 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ salam -:- donno. -:- Mon, Apr 16, 2001 at 12:40:03 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Selene -:- shhh remember what Janet said above - OT -:- Tues, Apr 17, 2001 at 02:44:03 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ ps -:- oooops didn't mean you SB - OT -:- Tues, Apr 17, 2001 at 02:53:33 (GMT)

If Rawat and EV really -:- cared about Jagdeo danger... -:- Sat, Apr 14, 2001 at 11:28:33 (GMT)

__ same poster -:- best way to protect all from Jagdeo/Amaroo -:- Sat, Apr 14, 2001 at 12:17:07 (GMT)

__ __ Abi -:- best way to protect all from Jagdeo/Amaroo -:- Sun, Apr 15, 2001 at 01:47:32 (GMT)

__ __ Roger eDrek -:- Maybe they should cancel Amaroo -:- Sat, Apr 14, 2001 at 22:47:51 (GMT)

Jean-Michel -:- Pat Halley's videoclip back online -:- Sat, Apr 14, 2001 at 07:35:43 (GMT)

__ janet -:- i cant view it. can it be reformatted in: -:- Sun, Apr 15, 2001 at 04:13:39 (GMT)

__ Selene -:- anyone know? -:- Sat, Apr 14, 2001 at 18:34:31 (GMT)

__ cq -:- J-M, please read: -:- Sat, Apr 14, 2001 at 15:11:46 (GMT)

__ Steve Quint -:- We Have A Sir Dave, What About A St. Patrick (nt) -:- Sat, Apr 14, 2001 at 13:47:45 (GMT)

__ kev -:- Best m video I've ever seen -:- Sat, Apr 14, 2001 at 12:17:44 (GMT)

__ Jean-Michel -:- Halley's videoclip might not work with Netscape! -:- Sat, Apr 14, 2001 at 08:12:08 (GMT)

__ __ JSK -:- Halley's videoclip might not work with Netscape! -:- Mon, Apr 16, 2001 at 15:16:53 (GMT)

__ __ salam -:- Halley's videoclip might not work with Netscape! -:- Sat, Apr 14, 2001 at 11:10:34 (GMT)

__ __ __ Bazza -:- Halley's videoclip does work with Netscape! -:- Sat, Apr 14, 2001 at 22:44:57 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ salam -:- I found out that being an asshole doesn't take -:- Sat, Apr 14, 2001 at 23:57:44 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ Bazza -:- I agree -:- Sun, Apr 15, 2001 at 04:06:30 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ salam -:- I care -:- Sun, Apr 15, 2001 at 09:38:34 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Selene -:- I care -:- Sun, Apr 15, 2001 at 18:47:47 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ salam -:- thanks love -:- Sun, Apr 15, 2001 at 23:51:21 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Selene -:- you are very welcome nt -:- Mon, Apr 16, 2001 at 00:22:02 (GMT)

__ __ __ Berni -:- Frightening stuff -:- Sat, Apr 14, 2001 at 13:05:57 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ Bazza -:- LOTU video -:- Sat, Apr 14, 2001 at 21:53:12 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ Joe -:- Frightening stuff -:- Sat, Apr 14, 2001 at 17:47:02 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ Babs -:- Frightening stuff -:- Sat, Apr 14, 2001 at 15:23:43 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ sean -:- Frightening stuff -:- Sun, Apr 15, 2001 at 04:24:37 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ Katie H -:- Tough guys with big mouths -:- Sun, Apr 15, 2001 at 15:17:38 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ sean -:- Tough guys with big mouths -:- Mon, Apr 16, 2001 at 01:06:40 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Katie H -:- Tough guys with big mouths -:- Mon, Apr 16, 2001 at 03:01:20 (GMT)

Bazza -:- Well the search for the Poet Laureat is under way: -:- Sat, Apr 14, 2001 at 05:52:13 (GMT)

__ Bryn -:- Well the search for the Poet Laureat is under way: -:- Sat, Apr 14, 2001 at 10:39:12 (GMT)

__ PatC -:- Enjoying Life without Knollidge -:- Sat, Apr 14, 2001 at 09:02:52 (GMT)

anon -:- fyi - as announced on 'firstclass' -:- Sat, Apr 14, 2001 at 02:46:37 (GMT)

__ Babs -:- 250 words or less? Hard for me to be that concise. -:- Sat, Apr 14, 2001 at 15:56:12 (GMT)

__ Marianne -:- Journeys lite -:- Sat, Apr 14, 2001 at 09:18:28 (GMT)

__ __ salam -:- Journeys lite -:- Sat, Apr 14, 2001 at 11:16:33 (GMT)

__ Richard -:- We could all send in our stories -:- Sat, Apr 14, 2001 at 03:17:26 (GMT)

__ Jim -:- Here's my entry -:- Sat, Apr 14, 2001 at 03:14:45 (GMT)

__ __ Joe -:- God Jim, brutal... -:- Sat, Apr 14, 2001 at 17:50:24 (GMT)

__ __ bill -:- Yow James, potent as usual....nt -:- Sat, Apr 14, 2001 at 04:15:11 (GMT)

Abi -:- FOMF: Some Questions -:- Sat, Apr 14, 2001 at 02:20:52 (GMT)

__ michael donner -:- FOMF: Some Questions -:- Mon, Apr 16, 2001 at 22:52:41 (GMT)

Date: Sun, Apr 15, 2001 at 00:35:06 (GMT) From: Abi Email: None To: Everyone Subject: OPEN LETTER TO MAHARAJI Message:

Dear Maharaji, first of all, thank you for taking the time to speak with my father alone yesterday. I am pleased that you appreciate that he deserves respect. My father is a decent and courageous man. I also appreciate that you are deeply sorry for the pain that Jagdeo has caused me, my brothers and my father. I understand that you feel you can't speak to me directly but I have listened with an open heart to the apology you passed on to me via my father. I have let the rest of my family know how very sorry you are and we are glad of this. Thank you for caring about us as fellow human beings. Your humanity shone through at the meeting you had with my father. I understand that you feel that you and Elan Vital are different agencies and that this matter must be taken up with them. That the damage will be taken care of by Elan Vital. In this respect Valerio, acting for Elan Vital, told my father that they will do everythng they can to bring Jagdeo to justice. I hope this is done as swiftly as possible. I and others are concerned that he may be abusing children now. I am very glad that after all these years the truth about this man Jagdeo is being faced. I am glad that Valerio is also acting with integrity about this matter. Valerio also said that Elan Vital will offer a public apology. I look forward to that happening very soon. I think this will represent an important moment for a great many people. I hope very much that you can also address the matter when you speak at Amaroo. This represents a unique and powerful opportunity for healing. I hope that my father and I can continue to have a respectful dialogue with you and Elan Vital about this matter. You were once my Master. Now I am beginning to understand your humanity. Thank you Maharaji. With respect, Abi

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Date: Tues, Apr 17, 2001 at 12:37:58 (GMT) From: AJW Email: None To: Abi Subject: OPEN LETTER TO MAHARAJI Message:

Hi Abi, Here's my take on the situation. The progress with the cult coming to terms with their support and sponsorship of Jagdeo has been hard and slow. They have only moved their position with the utmost reluctance, when they've had absolutely no choice. They are fighting a rearguard action. They started out claiming he was completely innocent, and have only been moved from this position by force. Their sole concern has always been with protecting Rawat. They have never shown any sympathy or support for his victims. I think their greatest worry must be an international lawsuit from Jagdeo's victims. I think they'll do anything to avoid this. This fear may have been connected to the cult name change, from DLM to Elan Vital. After the name change, they said Jagdeo had been in the employ of DLM, which had nothing to do with Elan Vital. Similarly, they try to make out there is no connection between Rawat and Elan Vital. He is not responsible for anything that happens in the cult. It is nothing to do with him. This is disgusting. And I think when Rawat met your dad, they again thought they would put the matter to bed for once and for all. Otherwise they wouldn't have wheeled Rawat out for the occasion. It's great that your dad got to see him. This is good progress, but we still have a long way to go. I think Rawat's response was pathetic. (I wonder how he would have reacted if Jagdeo had been sexually molesting Wadi and Daya when they were little.) I can't believe that the cult managed to conduct an enquiry without contacting any of the victims. Jagdeo should be handed over to the police. A public effort should be made to find all his victims. Satisfactory financial compensation should be paid to all his victims. Rawat should publicly apologise, both verbally and in writing. An enquiry should be set up to find out who first reported Jagdeo's crimes to cult officials, who subsequently reported crimes, and what was done afterwards. Is it true that after many reports of his behaviour, Jagdeo was sent out to the Far East to continue committing his crimes on the Indian children of premies out there, in full knowledge of cult officials? Anth, pausing for breath.

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Date: Mon, Apr 16, 2001 at 03:05:38 (GMT) From: Joe Email: None To: Abi Subject: Huh? Message:

Maharaji, I don't understand. Has Maharaji made any attempt to contact YOU to apologize and say he was sorry for what Jagdeo did to you? Did he mention to your father his intention to do that, or did he ask your father if it would be okay for him to call you, write to you, or otherwise express his sympathy? Why do you 'understand' that he can't speak to you directly? What is keeping him from doing that? Is he afraid of you? Has he lost his voice? Is he sick?Did either Maharaji or Elan Vital offer any compensation to your father, and did Maharaji say is there is any attempt to address the other victims, including Susan? What if they don't happen to have a premie father to insist on a meeting? Did Maharaji say why it took almost two years, numerous denials, and a public campaign over the internet, before he was motivated to express any sympathy to anyone about any of this? Does he say why he didn't come forward immediately when you and Susan reported this, and met with you and apologized then? Doesn't he think it sounds a little questionable to apologize and sympathize only after your father demanded to meet him, and only after this has been talked about on the internet for almost two years? Why does NOTHING come from his side? Why does Maharaji 'understand' that Elan Vital and he are 'separate entities,' and why must it be takem up with 'them' and not him? First, the Elan Vital and Maharaji are separate entities only on paper, and only in the legal sense, all of which exists to do just what he is taking advantage of at the moment, to shield Maharaji from liability, but more importantly, be an excuse for Maharaji not taking even moral or ethical responsibility for what happened to you. This is reprehensible behavior, and flies in the face of his supposed sympathy for you and your family. Elan Vital is supposedly going to give a public apology. What is preventing Maharaji, himself, from giving a public apology, as opposed to some faceless corporation? Isn't he, Maharaji, what Elan Vital is all about, I mean, it wouldn't even exist if he didn't, right? And isn't he supposed to be the master, the one who is supposedly in charge of the instruction of his students? If one of his students is assaulted under his 'mastership,' shouldn't he publicly address that? Why isn't he? Where is the leadership? Why isn't he putting his actions behind the supposed concern he has for you and your father? Speaking at Amaroo? Out in the middle of nowhere? How about on the Elan Vital website? How about in a letter published in the New York Times? How about some kind of public responsbility? I mean, it's great and all that he commiserated with your father, but those private meetings don't take much, shall we say, courage, now do they? Sorry, I'm glad you see this as progress, but I am not impressed. Of course, FOMF said I wouldn't be, so there you have it.

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Date: Mon, Apr 16, 2001 at 03:15:02 (GMT) From: Jim Email: None To: Joe Subject: Joe, it IS progress Message:

Joe, I agree with all of your questions and comments save the last. Maharaji's opened a door here. He's played a card, put a foot forward, however you want to put it. He's done something which clearly restricts his future plays accordingly. We'll see how this plays out but, as I see it, when you're trying to debunk the Sphinx it's kind of good to get him to say something, no matter how unsatisfactory.

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Date: Mon, Apr 16, 2001 at 03:29:37 (GMT) From: Joe Email: None To: Jim Subject: What kind of progress? TINY, if any. Message:

Don't fall into the trap of blowing out of proportion Maharaji's smallest moves, just because we've been here for years and he's never done anything but ignore critics. And I don't see this restricting him whatsoever. He is just dumping Jagdeo, if necessary, just like he has dumped anybody else who got to be a problem, but admits nothing, not even that it really happened, just that he's sorry if it did, to a premie who wants desperately to think he's an honorable man. So what? And he appears to have convinced Abi's father, and I guess Abi too, that 'Elan Vital,' is separate from him and will handle it all. No demands, apparently, that he personally see that this happens. No, Elan Vital, in all it's competence and independence, will just do a bang up job bringing Jagdeo to justice. What if they don't? How long to they have? Would Elan Vital sue Jagdeo? On what grounds? How are the victims any better off? Maharaji, is, however, better off, because he appears to have even convinced you that he is doing the honorable thing, even if very small. He did the easy thing, and only after years of pressure. And, actually, he didn't do anything, except perhaps help himself a little here.

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Date: Mon, Apr 16, 2001 at 08:25:07 (GMT) From: Jim Email: None To: Joe Subject: Are you kidding? I'm on the edge of going back! Message:

Joe, Nothing was going to stop Abi's dad from meeting with Maharaji. Nothing was going to stop Abi from posting about it. All that's happened. Question is: what, if anything, can we get or at least learn from all this? As I say, besides whatever use Maharaji's comments to her father may be to Abi, there is a precedent set here. Like I said, I think this fretful gesture on Maharaji's part blows the Turner argument out of the water. Now, I know, you're going to say that no one ever takes that shit serious anyway, all that 'He's-God-and-doesn't-answer-to-us-mere-mortals' stuff. Well, I'm not so sure about that. It IS a cult, don't forget. Plus, Maharaji demonstrated for once and for all his cowardly, deceiving nature by trying to hide behind EV. That's there too for anyone really looking. Bedtime!

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Date: Mon, Apr 16, 2001 at 17:21:24 (GMT) From: Joe Email: None To: Jim Subject: Are you kidding? Message:

Really, Jim, if Maharaji had stuck with the 'I don't have to answer to anyone' bullshit, I think it would be MUCH more transparent what a cult it all actually is. Now, it's much worse, because there is the facade of caring humanity, without having to actually demonstrate anything of the sort. I can't see how you could possibly think that's positive.

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Date: Mon, Apr 16, 2001 at 17:41:27 (GMT) From: Jim Email: None To: Joe Subject: No, not kidding at all Message:

Joe, I disagree. Maharaji's conceded way more than he planned to by taking this meeting as he did. I've already stated why I think so a couple of times. For example, like I said below, he's truly undermined the Turner POV which, though we may laugh, still sustains a substantial part of the cult faithful, I'd imagine. Beyond that, who could ever take seriously a one-shot, indriect, accept-no-responsibility 'apology' in the circumstances? Just wait until some premie tries to make that argument here. This show of concern on Maharaji's part is going to blow up like a cheap cigar unless something substantial follows to back it up. But there's no room for that in this cult. Hey, if Maharaji does try to suddenly bakc up this isolated moment somehow he'll have to completely change the rules of engagement. He'll have to do more than have this one little island of concerned hand-holding in his portfolio. Unfortunately for him, though, he's facing a very unanswerable history and he knows it. That's what I think anyway.

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Date: Mon, Apr 16, 2001 at 20:46:15 (GMT) From: Joe Email: None To: Jim Subject: Shortsighted, Jim Message:

The Turner POV will be retained by those who hold it no matter what. Remember lila? Whatever he does is just fine to them. He still doesn't need to answer to anyone, but out of his kindness he met with a mere mortal and gave sympathy. That doesn't in the least undermine the Turner POV. How does it? And even if it did, I don't get why you don't see how undermining the Turner POV for public consumption, benefits M, and does nothing to benefit the victims. I think it's obvious. I know you have some kind of idea that this is some kind of sea change, but I don't understand why you think that. And don't be silly. Maharaji has washed his hands of this and now 'Elan Vital' takes over, and we are right back where we started. Oh yeah. Now Elan Vital (and not Maharaji) will publically say they sympathize with the victims, it that's what they are. Big deal. How is that any different from where we were last week?

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Date: Mon, Apr 16, 2001 at 21:51:10 (GMT) From: JHB Email: None To: Joe Subject: Shortsighted, Jim Message:

And don't be silly. Maharaji has washed his hands of this and now 'Elan Vital' takes over, and we are right back where we started. Oh yeah. Now Elan Vital (and not Maharaji) will publically say they sympathize with the victims, it that's what they are. Big deal. How is that any different from where we were last week? Joe, This is why having the evidence that Maharaji runs EV prominent on this site is important. Maharaji will not be able to distance himself from EV if we publish pages of first hand evidence that Maharaji makes all the big decisions. John.

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Date: Tues, Apr 17, 2001 at 16:04:11 (GMT) From: Joe Email: None To: JHB Subject: Shortsighted, Jim Message:

Very good, John. But how do you propose to do that? I guess we need defectors. I can say that when I was an employee of Elan Vital (unpaid, with no benefits), Maharaji made all but the most mudane decisions. Not the details, because Maharaji sucked at details. But, the leadership of Elan Vital met with him and got directions on what to do and how he wanted to proceed. Maharaji also worked through 'messengers' who relayed what he wanted to Elan Vital. Actually, Elan Vital didn't do much of anything except put on programs and raise money. That was about it.

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Date: Tues, Apr 17, 2001 at 16:22:04 (GMT) From: JHB Email: None To: Joe Subject: Well, you sound like a defector Message:

Write up your personal experience of Maharaji directing Elan Vital and send it to J-M for posting on the EPO site. Unforunately, I only ever saw Maharaji at programs, and although I'm sure there must evidence in Maharaji's speeches that he ran EV/DLM, I can't think of anything at the moment (apart from his claim to run the entire universe, let alone EV/DLM!). If enough people who have that first hand experience submit their testimonies, and these are posted alongside EV and Maharaji's claims to separation, those claims will look absurd. It would also help bring Maharaji into the frame if Jagdeo ever gets convicted. he wouldn't be able to hide behind his claim that EV has nothing to do with him. John.

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Date: Mon, Apr 16, 2001 at 21:59:33 (GMT) From: Jim Email: None To: JHB Subject: Right, John, this is a fight we can win Message:

Yes, exactly. Maharaji's talked a bit now but what he's said doesn't make sense. So we can prove that. Will there be some premies who don't give a shit what the truth is? Sure, but they're not 'target audience' anyway. Same thing with this Lila stuff. Yes, Turner or someone like him could still say that even Maharaji's almost-tears with Abi's dad don't mean for a second that he's stuck in this world just like the rest of us. Who's going to buy that, though? Fewer and fewer, even among the cultmembers, is my guess.

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Date: Mon, Apr 16, 2001 at 21:46:09 (GMT) From: Jim Email: None To: Joe Subject: Well, we'll just see now, won't we? Message:

Joe, Maybe you're right and I'm just being silly. (?) But you keep talking about how Maharaji's going to spin this way and that and I keep talking about how that won't cut it. We're really talking at cross-purposes, I think. YES, Maharaji's going to distance, whitewash, lie and evade his responsiblity over this issue like all others. Question is, though, will the premies ultimately buy it? You say yes and I say not without more dissension in the ranks and clouds of doubt. Where it all leads, we'll just have to see. Don't be such a pessimist.

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Date: Mon, Apr 16, 2001 at 22:17:19 (GMT) From: Joe Email: None To: Jim Subject: Buy what? Message:

And how long will you wait until you decide whether anything has happened? And suppose Elan Vital 'fires' Jagdeo. So what? They fired Parlokanand; I guess their fired Fakiranand, too. Now, just what do you think those things did? They aren't going to prosectute Jagdeo (they have no grounds), or turn him over to the cops, either. Will they tell Abi where he is so she can persue a claim? Maybe, about the same time they fire him. I still do get that anything has actually happened. They already said Jagdeo was in India. What more is that? More likely though, is you won't hear much of anything. And nothing from Maharaji. Like I said, a whitewashed sympathy card, carefully worded, might get issued, someplace. The premies will 'buy it' to the same degree they buy it now. Actually, I think it might just give a few fence-sitters cover to give M the benefit of the doubt. That's about it.

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Date: Mon, Apr 16, 2001 at 22:58:47 (GMT) From: Jim Email: None To: Joe Subject: OK, what would you suggest? Message:

What do you suggest, Joe?

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Date: Tues, Apr 17, 2001 at 16:00:32 (GMT) From: Joe Email: None To: Jim Subject: What I suggest... Message:

I suggest that we NOT get on some kind of bandwagon saying something has fundamentally changed because, supposedly, Maharaji met with a premie and comiserated with him, while at the same time, he used the occasions to further distance himself from responsbility behind a shell, inept, corporation that he pretends is separate from him. I suggest we not let Maharaji have his cake and eat it too.

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Date: Mon, Apr 16, 2001 at 23:33:04 (GMT) From: Francesca Email: None To: Jim Subject: This is why I threw up my hands Message:

I'm with Joe. At this point, don't think this advances the ball one iota. Maharaji will do his song and dance, and those that believe will believe. The only thing to be accomplished is that Abi will get closure on this and/or move on, unless the long arm of the law can get EV and/or Jadgeo. And if they can, Maharaji will do his song and dance, and those that believe will believe. Of course, a few fence sitters may fall off while they watch, and maybe more will come out of this that hasn't yet evolved. I care about Abi, but other than that, I just don't see anything but personal stuff for her and/or her father happening out of this. --f

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Date: Mon, Apr 16, 2001 at 23:38:07 (GMT) From: Jim Email: None To: Francesca Subject: This is why I threw up my hands Message:

Francesca, Nothing radical is likely going to happen as a result of this meeting. But unravelling the cult leader's mystique might be more of a gradual thing anyway. OK, you're frustrated. Same question I asked Joe: what would YOU suggest?

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Date: Tues, Apr 17, 2001 at 04:30:02 (GMT) From: Francesca Email: None To: Jim Subject: Actually nothing more than we are ... Message:

already doing. And you and Joe take a lot of credit for this forum being here, as well as a bunch of other folks. There was a saying, 'knowledge is power.' That doesn't mean M's Knowledge. It means knowing what's going on and being as honest as I can about it. I agree with you in the sense that each 'drip' as Anth once said, adds to the accumulation of the watershed created by the final drip. Every drip counts. Every insightful post on this forum, every crack in the armor. I actually don't believe that they'll be an EV and M armageddon. It's more like some people will get it and get out. So no reason to be frustrated, either. You are right about that. What was I expecting? Maharaji will do his dance, and those that believe will believe. Until the day he dies, perhaps. --f

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Date: Tues, Apr 17, 2001 at 16:07:10 (GMT) From: Joe Email: None To: Francesca Subject: People getting out... Message:

This is the real objective, in my opinion. And it IS working, just like you said. Also, I think all this helps people who aren't active premies, but still hold on to some residual belief that he's the Perfect Master, in the back of their heads someplace. I think this website has really helped a lot of those people make a clean break from Maharaji and the cult.

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Date: Tues, Apr 17, 2001 at 19:56:15 (GMT) From: Bin Liner Email: None To: Joe Subject: That was true for me Joe ...A residual (nt) Message:

nt

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Date: Mon, Apr 16, 2001 at 15:06:17 (GMT) From: Richard Email: None To: Jim Subject: What is the 'Turner Argument'? Message:

Is that like the Eiger Sanction? For all us Forum Skimmers, please explain Jim.

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Date: Mon, Apr 16, 2001 at 17:07:33 (GMT) From: Jim Email: None To: Richard Subject: The 'Turner Argument' Message:

Richard, Once in a while some joker comes here to remind us that Maharaji answers to no man, woman, expectation, norm or moral convention. He's God, after all. Indeed, though we sometimes forget, he's not even bound by so-called physical 'laws' or any such nonsense. He's God. Turner was just the latest proponent of such idiocy (idiocy which I nonetheless believed wholeheartedly, myself, way back when). Maharaji's solicitous, albeit entirely suspect, handwringing with Abi's dad scuttles that argument. Now Maharaji's at least conceding that he should care about these things, is hopelessly impotent to know or control even his own saints (bye bye 'omnipotence', 'omniscience' and the other one, whatever it was). Indeed, even if you grant Maharaji full sincerity this late in the game and feel inclined to somehow overlook the fact that he's completely at odds with people like Susan who claim good reasons to believe that he knew about Jagdeo long before now, even if you're willing to overlook his cowardly referral to EV, you still are left with the impression of a very human kind of guy, scrambling to protect himself. Bye bye, Turner!

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Date: Mon, Apr 16, 2001 at 22:24:27 (GMT) From: Richard Email: None To: Jim Subject: M's prescription = MahaViagra for Omnimpotence! nt Message:

nt

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Date: Sun, Apr 15, 2001 at 06:43:44 (GMT) From: Francesca Email: None To: Abi Subject: Maharaji is a coward and a liar Message:

Abi: I am glad that he at least had a kind demeanor with your father, but that's easy to do when backed into a proverbial corner. Maharaji is a liar, pure and simple. His response would get me angry except that I lost my father last week and a lot of stuff pales in importance. Maharaji is continuing to play the blame game. On one hand, he claims that it is his knowledge and his instructors giving it under his agya. Then when an instructor is a pedophile, he blames Elan Vital??? Divide and conquer, as Donner said many times. Pure baloney. I lost my respect for Maharaji. I feel sorry for him, because he can never, in many lifetimes, repay the damage he has done, and the trust he has betrayed. There will be hell to pay for him, and I don't relish anyone else's suffering. Francesca

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Date: Sun, Apr 15, 2001 at 21:06:03 (GMT) From: Cynthia Email: None To: Francesca Subject: Maharaji is a coward and a liar Message:

Dear Francesca, First, I am sorry for your loss. I too, lost someone close to me this week. I hope you are okay. I am probably sticking my neck out here again, but I also agree that I don't believe a thing Maharaji says. If he met with Abi's father, who is still a premie, he knew he would have power over him. And it's not like M isn't a seasoned actor. For Maharaji to separate himself from EV is ludicrous. I don't buy that M doesn't have complete control over everything that happens with EV. He got backed into a corner, and, like a blubbering alcoholic, gave his apologies. Been there, done that. As far a his complicity in the crimes Jagdeo committed against Abi, Susan, and how many others--it's obvious to me. He is complicit in that he has allowed (for whatever reasons) a known pedophile to wander this earth to abuse innocent children again. If Maharaji really cared about these children, most likely the children of HIS PREMIES, this would have stopped years ago. I just don't believe that he has 'forgotten' or never knew about this. Don't get me wrong....JAGDEO, and only Jagdeo, is (I'll say allegedly) guilty for these crimes, but for so many people to suddenly lose their memories is just a bit too convenient. Especially right before a big ''event'' in Amaroo...PR you know.... I wouldn't trust anyone from EV and that's from the top down. What makes anyone think that Maharaji, after all these years, would suddenly NOT be a megalomaniac? No, these reports have been coming in for years and now m has to face the music, and he's doing it in his typical manipulative way--psych out a premie father, shed a few tears, and blame everything about his life on the people around him, not to mention making false promises. I sincerely doubt he has changed just because a lot of pressure was put on him here. But I do believe the lawyers are having a lot of meetings right now.... Just my 2Cents, Love, Cynthia

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Date: Sun, Apr 15, 2001 at 23:19:41 (GMT) From: Francesca Email: None To: Cynthia and Pat Subject: Thanks for the confirmation and the concern Message:

Cynthia and Pat: Thanks for your kind words, and concern. My mother, one of my sisters and I spent several days together after my father died. Abi's situation came up in passing, after I mentioned my own pedophiliac mahatma, Parlokanand, and Marianne's joking comment to me that the Catholic priest who baptised me could (theoretically) have been in the same boat. My sister talked about similar abuses in the Catholic church, and I mentioned Abi's situation. We all agreed that, no matter how much respect I had for my father and his religion, if a Catholic priest had sexually abused or molested me and was being moved around by the church rather than being taken out of circulation, my mother and sister would not have expected me to refrain from taking my father's (and mother's) church all the way to the boards, if I felt I had been violated. And that includes not believing excuses and runarounds from monsignors, bishops and cardinals. And mind you, this conversation happened during a period when our love and respect and honor for my father (and all he believed and stood for) is running high, due to his very recent passing (last Sunday). I believe your portrayal of the situation that could easily have happened (or will happen) between M and Abi's dad is accurate. He is a devotee. I have close relatives who are devotees also, and I'm sure they could find some way to screw their heads around this and make it right. They know enough mucky mucks that I'm sure they'll hear about Abi and her dad, if they don't know already. I know of Tibetan Buddhist lamas (some lamas are not monastics -- lamas aren't by definition monks, although some are) that supposedly hit on attractive female students or potentional students. There seems to be a string of girlfriends that are coincidentally students, and often new students, at any rate. I have seen firsthand how students can turn their heads around and justify the whole thing, especially when, on the balance, they see the lama doing good work. And there is nowhere near the level of brainwash or 'god-in-a-bod' that we got with M in Tibetan Buddhism, and still the students justify it. I can only imagine the level it gets to when you think M is at the level of Jesus Christ or Buddha (although I don't believe they or anyone else is god-in-a-bod either -- I've dumped that theory as folklore). Since I bailed out of K so many years ago, this whole thing mystifies me no end. I read Abi's open letter and threw my hands up. Separately from this forum, I think Abi will have to sort out her own course amongst several factors: 1) how she feels about what happened to her re Jagdeo 2) her ties to her premie father and mother, and the influencing factor of not wanting to 'mess' with their relationship to the Lard in order to get her own closure re number 1) above 3) her own relationship with Maharaji, if there is one, separate from how she speaks about him on this forum -- she must look in her own heart for that one, and keep her own counsel, beyond the influence of her father, her mother, M, or any of us on this forum On number 3, it is easy to trash someone in groups, and not really mean it. Abi's open letter to Maharaji leads me to believe that she may want, almost as desperately as her father, to believe that M is OK and that the Jagdeo situation is everyone else's fault. That would be a pity, but if she is not ready to see M for what I think he truly is, she has to work from her own honest evaluation, and take it from there. I would not want her to do otherwise. It is only when we have our own sense of balance and the answers are coming from our own wholeness that we can feel good about the conclusions we come to, and build upon them. I wish her the best of luck and will listen to what she and everyone on this forum has to say to us as this unfolds. --f

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Date: Mon, Apr 16, 2001 at 02:23:40 (GMT) From: Susan Email: None To: Francesca Subject: Thanks for the confirmation and the concern Message:

I am so sorry about your Dad. You have been a great source of support here for me and I just want to tell you I am sorry. It sounds like your Dad was a really good man, and you must get some of your strenth of character from him.

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Date: Mon, Apr 16, 2001 at 01:25:33 (GMT) From: Jim Email: None To: Francesca Subject: Don't worry about Abi Message:

3) her own relationship with Maharaji, if there is one, separate from how she speaks about him on this forum -- she must look in her own heart for that one, and keep her own counsel, beyond the influence of her father, her mother, M, or any of us on this forum What kind of romantic hokum is that, Francesca? Maharaji's a cult leader who made millions on the pretense that he was the Lord of the Universe, Saviour of Mankind, come with more power than ever before, who, in fact, inaugurated a '1,000 Years of Peace' in 1973. Neither Abi, your or anyone has to solemnly 'look into [their] own heart' or make any similar 'Vision Quest' regarding this asshole. Now, before you say 'what the fu..??' let me add that I don't think for a minute that you think any higher of Maharaji than do I. I mean that's obivous. So what are we arguing about? Well, I think that you unwittingly have kind of done the very same thing you're 'throwing your hands up' at Abi for. You're bringing a certain level of class and default respect, if you will, to unseemly circumstances. That's how I read Abi's post. I get the impression that she feels naturally compelled, just as a person who's trying to find the ethical highwater mark in such a sleazy situation, to afford Maharaji some 'benefit of the doubt', I guess, regarding his current motives. It was that which she was giving the nod to, nothing else. So, was Maharaji in any way sincere when he fretted and commisserated with Abi's dad? Maybe. Abi wasn't there so she's doing the civil thing of giving the guy just a little room -- for now, at least -- to grown into. But Abi's no fool. She's fully aware of the blatant juxtaposition of Maharaji's account vis-a-vis Susan's. She's also more than hip to how very little he's done so, so late in the game. I mean, I don't mean to speak for her but I've been in touch with her a bit recently and those are certainly my impressions. Just like you, I think, never meant to actually grant such possible deference to an imaginary 'relationship' with a predatory, venal cult leader. But the words just come out sometimes. Why? Because they're standard fare in normal human realations. Normally, if you were talking with a friend about how she should view her relationship with another, your final comments would apply. But they don't here for the reasons I gave. On number 3, it is easy to trash someone in groups, and not really mean it. Abi's open letter to Maharaji leads me to believe that she may want, almost as desperately as her father, to believe that M is OK and that the Jagdeo situation is everyone else's fault. That would be a pity, but if she is not ready to see M for what I think he truly is, she has to work from her own honest evaluation, and take it from there. I would not want her to do otherwise. It is only when we have our own sense of balance and the answers are coming from our own wholeness that we can feel good about the conclusions we come to, and build upon them. I wish her the best of luck and will listen to what she and everyone on this forum has to say to us as this unfolds. Honestly, Francesca, Abi's far past this crossroads. Her particularly respectful tone in her letter to Maharaji notwithstanding.

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Date: Mon, Apr 16, 2001 at 02:11:19 (GMT) From: Susan Email: None To: Jim Subject: I agree, Abi is no one's fool Message:

I have talked to her on the phone and emailed a great deal with her. She is an incredibly bright, strong intelligent woman. Her post really, to me, just reflects that Abi is a very ethical person and I agree she is doing what is right given the circumstances. By Abi continuing to address this whole thing as if she expects Rawat to behave honorably, she makes it harder and harder for him to do otherwise, and if he does fail to do otherwise, it will stand in stark contrast to Abi's strength, courage, and sincerity. Especially courage.

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Date: Mon, Apr 16, 2001 at 17:52:48 (GMT) From: Francesca Email: None To: Susan Subject: Susan and Jim, thanks for the clarification Message:

because Abi can't answer all these posts, and I wasn't looking for an answer, really. Susan, thanks for the kind words re my Dad and our interactions here. I have gotten a lot of support from you and others on the forum, and that is a comfort. And Jim, I still believe that we Vision Quest people are going to have to find our way out of the cult the same way we came in, as ourselves. You and I DO agree on what and Who is Guru Maharaj Ji, but some of us do process things differently. I will say however, that you gave me some food for thought about the ethical high road, and where to draw the line. That being said, I don't like to be too sure of anything, because, after all, I was once sure that Maharaji was the Lord. Whatever the h*ll that means. love -- f

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Date: Sun, Apr 15, 2001 at 09:03:14 (GMT) From: PatC Email: None To: Francesca Subject: Maharaji is a two-faced fake and fraud Message:

I feel quite insulted by Rawat's disingenuous claim that it is EV's responsibility and not his. I will definitely be making some effort to show that he is being sneaky and deceitful. It's so nice to have you back. I am sorry that you lost your father. As you know, my mom kicked the bucket the year before but, at the risk of sounding woo-woo (as Katie Darling would say) I don't feel as if she's completely disappeared. There's more to love than meets the eye.

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Date: Sun, Apr 15, 2001 at 06:31:22 (GMT) From: janet Email: None To: Abi Subject: kill the scapegoat,bypass the capo Message:

all this talk about valerio will handle it and mj saying EV is separate from him...even the crocodile tears part... what a relief for them. make jagdeo the lightning rod, make him fall on his sword, give his life for his master. judy osborne claims not to remember. says she was working in miami at the time. got a lot of requests to get things to maharaji. reported back that maharaji was'glad to hear that it was not a new incident'. therefore he knew about the first incident. so why the tears all of a sudden now? who lied? judy? a go between? maharaji? Randy supposedly reported it. Gurucharnanand supposedly reported it. Judy supposedly reported it. FOMF supposedly is the only one in their circle who remembers hearing about it. I remember hearing about it. but supposedly maharaji didnt know. but he was glad it was not a new incident. we can not let them make jagdeo the scapegoat. maharaji must be named as a defendant. sue, abi. sue, susan. class action.

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Date: Sun, Apr 15, 2001 at 05:33:59 (GMT) From: Jim Email: None To: Abi Subject: The real implications of this: bye, bye, Turner Message:

Maharaji turned a real corner when he met with Abi's dad. By deigning to actually meet with the father of an ex-premie with an historic complaint against one of his agents and then urging him to accept his own sincere remonstrations of concern and, apparently, some implied guilt and remorse as well, Maharaji has put his human foot forward. He could have played the other one, taken a Turner step, if you will, but he didn't. So now we have a Maharaji who, at least in this one encounter, was apparently pained to establish trust, to regain or, at least, reaffirm the respect Abi's father might have for him. Well, the way I see it, that kind of effort on Maharaji's part just can't be a one-shot deal. If he never, ever drops the drawbridge again and let some mere mortal question him, as he did here, how hollow will this one little session look in time? Very, I should think. Very indeed. Alright, I'm thinking, if Maharaji wants to fight to regain some credibility let the battle begin! He wants people like Abi or her dad to respect him in any way, shape or form, then he's got to indulge us, all of us. There are questions, Maharaji, many, many questions. Right off the bat, I'm thinking, what about Susan? When does she or her representative get their audience with the Wizard? And how about Abi herself? If Maharaji wants to apologize, surely he'd want to do so face-to-face, wouldn't he? And how about Dave Weiner's family, huh? You know, their boy hung himself because he got so freaked out by Maharaji's dire warnings that it was better to die than to let the mind lead one astray from his Holy Lotus Feet. What about them, Maharaji? Well, well, I know. One step at a time and all that. And who knows hwere Maharaji's really coming from. As I said before to Dave, he's likely lying even now on account of the fact that Susan's likely not. Still, he could have meant it when he spoke apparently with some show of empathy to Abi's dad. I guess, if you're reading this, Maharaji, and you really are sincere, all I can say is that, it's kind of like that old saying I heard somewhere: You take one step towards us, and we'll take a thousand steps towards you. That's a bit of a joke but, honestly, if Maharaji ever actually tried to do a Krishnamurti, even this late in the game, after he divested himself of all of most of his obscene and obscenely-obtained wealth, compensated us all and even cooked the subji himself at our next Truth And Reconciliation Committee Hearings potluck, there is a point where we might all actually forgive him. Something for him to look forward to, at least. Anyway, fuck you, Turner! You lost, bud. Maharaji pulled the rug out from underneath you. You might be wanting to shop around for another cult leader, if he continues to disappoint. And Maharaji, if you do nothing else right in your life, thank you for that one.

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Date: Sun, Apr 15, 2001 at 14:42:45 (GMT) From: Susan Email: None To: Jim Subject: Jim you are brilliant Message:

I love this post. ( but that one below, that sic one, that is embarrassing)

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Date: Sun, Apr 15, 2001 at 04:59:13 (GMT) From: Pat Conlon Email: None To: Abi Subject: What a lying, cheating sonofabitch, Rawat is! Message:

I am happy for you, Abi, if this is what you want and if it makes amends for your pain. But, for me, it has made me angrier with Rawat than I have been in a long time. In your letter you say that Rev Rawat feels that he ''and Elan Vital are different agencies and that this matter must be taken up with them.'' This canard must be exposed soon. No doubt that is according to the letter of the law but certainly it is not in keeping with the spirit of the law. Everything possible must be done to show that there is a chain of command from Rawat to the officers of EV. For me this was my final drip. It is so deceitful, responsibiltity-shirking and sleazy that I cannot believe that premies are not totally disgusted by this. If Rawat is so distant from and unpleased with EV then he should get rid of them and do his socalled work on his own. All the original money came from DLM/EV that has set him up for life as an independently wealthy man. He is a coward, a fraud, a liar and I personally am going to do everything that I can to find that missing link in the chain of command. It is one thing when two-faced politicians use legal technicalities to skirt the law but this man has set himself up as a Master of Truth. He must be brought to account now. In the meantime, Abi, I hope that are going to sue EV into bankruptcy.

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Date: Sun, Apr 15, 2001 at 04:12:13 (GMT) From: Sir Dave Email: None To: Abi Subject: OPEN LETTER TO MAHARAJI Message:

One thing I've always thought was that Jagdeo's child abuse is a seperate issue to the main concerns people have with Maharaji. Premies were abused by Maharaji and their lives were damaged entirely by his direction. Jagdeo needs to be brought to book for any crimes he has committed but it's a seperate issue to what Maharaji has done and continues to do. Maharaji has successfully distanced himself from the child abuse because he is no fool. The fact that he hasn't personally distanced himself from it in the past must be due to his ill informed advisors. Only you can comment on how helpful Maharaji is regarding your past trauma. It is not for others to pass judgement because we weren't the victims. But we can pass judgement on everything else Maharaji says and does because it concerns us and has affected us. I never thought that Jagdeo's abuse of children was a stick to beat Maharaji with, mainly because Maharaji can easily distance himself from it, as he has now done. But certainly it is a stick to beat the abuser himself and make him realise the wrong he has done. In that respect I hope you are successful.

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Date: Sun, Apr 15, 2001 at 04:54:30 (GMT) From: Jim Email: None To: Sir Dave Subject: I think you're missing the point completely, Dave Message:

There are two reasons why what you're saying doesn't fly. One, like Joey said below, the only reason we even had these exalted demi-gods walking amongst us, these 'great souls', these 'mahatmas', was that it was all part and parcel of Maharaji's Lord of the Universe act. Every Jesus needs his John the Baptist, I guess. So Maharaji a bunch of them. It was all his show in any event. Thus, Maharaji was fully responsible for these men and women he, as our Lord, no less, endorsed as trustworthy, indeed, as virtual extensions of himself. Like a captain on a ship, one of his favorite over-worked metaphoric identities, he was responsible for it all. Beyond that, of course, he was responsible even further when these mahatmas started 'falling', one by one. Think about it. One after another of these Indian men, for the most part, flip out on their unquestioned power in the face of endless temptation. It wasn't that these guys were all necessarily perverse (I'm specifically not talking about Jagdeo's pedophiliac tendencies, here, but rather all the sexual exploitation the mahatmas indulged in), it was propbably just the situation. They were confused boys and men playing something they weren't. And why? Just to perpetuate Maharaji's own aggrandizement. So when these guys started falling apart, Maharaji had a responsibility, then and there, to immediately, openly deal with the systemic problem his 'system' had created. But did he do that? Hardly! What he did was whisk these guys away, one by one, secretly, quietly, so as to disturb the facade as little as possible. Mahatmas raped women, molested boys, seduced girls, got them pregnant, why, we even saw Tejeshwaranand turn one of our Vancouver ashrams into an actual harem, at one point. Whenever the cult had to deal with these messes, it always did the same thing. Quiet, middle of the night, Air Fakiranand flights back to who-knows-where. In the morning, nothing. And somewhere in there's Jagdeo. And this is the second reason that Maharaji's completely on the line, Jagdeo-wise: Susan. It's this simple, Dave. Either Susan's a liar, and Judy Osborne never did tell her that Maharaji already knew about Jagdeo (just like Randy had assured her he did when she first asked him to tell Maharaji and he later said he had), or she's not. You decide. If Maharaji told Abi's dad, as it appears, that this was all news to him, then it's Maharaji or Susan. Don't you agree? What do you think?

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Date: Sun, Apr 15, 2001 at 11:21:46 (GMT) From: Sir Dave Email: None To: Jim Subject: I think you're missing the point completely, Jim Message:

All I'm saying is that Maharaji can easily wriggle out of this one. Of course he's not blameless and almost certainly lying when he feigns no knowledge of Jagdeo's crimes but nobody is going to be able to pin anything on him. Seeing it from the victims' perspectives, they at least now have a chance of getting the abuser brought to justice and I think that's what they want. Maharaji isn't the child abuser and though people can point fingers at him and blame him for complicity in all this, he knows that there's nothing anyone can do him for. He's safe and can freely stage manage crocodile tears for all the adoring premies. People can call him a liar but that's about it. They've no power to do anything more. It would be ridiculous to suggest that Maharaji wanted Jagdeo to go and abuse children. So what happened? That much is a mystery but I suspect Maharaji's loyalties to an old family friend (Jagdeo) who has had some sort of power over him - that's what allowed Maharaji to pass the responsibility of Jagdeo onto other people and hope the situation would go away.

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Date: Sun, Apr 15, 2001 at 16:31:17 (GMT) From: Jim Email: None To: Sir Dave Subject: You have to minimize and exaggerate to get there Message:

Dave, You're completely minmizing the effect that all of this has had and will continue to have within the premie world. It's really so simple, too, now. Either Susan's lying or Maharaji is (with a slight nod to Katie's theory that Maharaji could have plumb forgot whatever he was told back then because of alcohol). No one said that Maharaji ever wanted Jagdeo to do this or was even a child abuser himself. Thanks for clarifying that though. (?) No, the real problems here are just what we've always focussed on and which I tried to explain above: the culture of gods and demi-gods that Maharaji was responsible for and which facilitated such exploitation and Maharaji's apparent lie, even now, in the face of Susan's story. You say Maharaji can 'easily wriggle out of this' If his meeting with Abi's dad is any indication, I'd say, yeah, he's wriggling alright. Don't know how easy it is, though. Doesn't sound like a lot of fun to me. Especially, when the word gets out to the premie world that he's taking these kinds of meetings.

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Date: Sun, Apr 15, 2001 at 16:58:44 (GMT) From: Katie H Email: None To: Jim Subject: Collective bad memory Message:

It seems that EVERYONE who has been notified about what was going on with Jagdeo has forgotten about it. I read Susan's account of her phone call with Judy Osbourne, and Judy sounds like she really DID forget about it - or doesn't want to remember for some reason. I suspect that the memory has been supressed because of extreme cognitive dissonance. Randy Prouty claims that he 'forgot' or 'didn't understand'. FoMF says he heard about it but didn't think about it; he can't remember who he heard it from, and it's not at all clear what he heard. I am not sure if Maharaji is saying that he never heard about it - that is not clear from Abi's story. Perhaps he just did not take it seriously when he did hear about it (although that seems hard to believe), or he was drunk when he heard about it. I'm kind of skeptical about the collective bad memory here (unless practicing knowledge really rots your brain...) Could all these people have forgotten, been in denial, repressed the memory, etc.? It just seems unlikely - or very weird.

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Date: Sun, Apr 15, 2001 at 19:28:09 (GMT) From: Joy Email: None To: Katie H Subject: Collective bad memory Message:

Katie, I can see how this can happen. After all, you're always supposed to be enjoying life in Maharaji's world, aren't you? Perhaps bad news like this which would require one to take some sort of action resulting in negative publicity and lots of pain and suffering for people was just too much for them all to bear (M included)? So much easier to get in denial, stick one's head in the sand (which is what practicing K is about anyhow) and pretend the nasty stuff will go away. Perhaps if you don't acknowledge its existence it will magically disappear and you won't have to break the spell of supposed blissfulness. I've seen this attitude in premies lots of times. Major, big-time denial of the seamier side of life. I've always wondered about the sort of exalted position among the mahatmas that Jagdeo seems to have. Is it that he is an old family friend and knew M's father and mother? I remember when he arrived in Denver the respect and special attitude which was directed towards him, but from listening to his droning and boring satsang, couldn't figure out why. I thought perhaps because he was older, but this makes sense that he could be a family friend, which could also be why M is reluctant to deal with him properly. Can anyone confirm this? But hopefully all that denial is over (thanks to all the screaming going on here) and M will now 'do the right thing' and bring Jagdeo to justice in the proper way--not just defrocking him as a mahatma (big deal), but actually criminally prosecuting him, which is what he truly deserves. I will hold off on acknowledging Maharaji's supposed humanity until I see this happening.

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Date: Mon, Apr 16, 2001 at 00:32:10 (GMT) From: Katie Darling Email: None To: Joy Subject: Collective bad memory Message:

Yes–– I, too, never quite got the fuss about the great Jagdeo. What a pedantic bore! I REMEMBER! I just remembered another detail about what I heard back then about the Jagdeo situation. I have no idea who told me, but I knew lots of PAMs and PAPAMs. Whoever it was said that Jagdeo was allowed to keep on touring after his pedophilia became known (to MJ?) But that there was one person appointed in each community to 'keep an eye on him' around kinds. I am certain I heard this. Wouldn't it be great to have one of his watchers come forward?! love Katie Darling

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Date: Mon, Apr 16, 2001 at 01:05:33 (GMT) From: Jim Email: None To: Katie Darling Subject: Calling All Jagdeo Watchers! Message:

This doesn't surprise me. Maharaji had a lot riding on his parade of Holy Men. Thus he well could keep them in circulation, even after all sorts of transgressions, just like you remember. Imagine a police force doing this. Or a school board. No public notice, just a little sideline monitoring. After all, we wouldn't want the premies to loose their cult-level reverance and trust for all the mahatmas, would we?

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Date: Sun, Apr 15, 2001 at 05:05:11 (GMT) From: PatC Email: None To: Jim Subject: Exactly!! Message:

Not only that but Jagdeo was one of the senior mahatmas in the Prem Nagar mafia who helped set up the current godfather. There is a direct link. No amount of legal finagling can separate the two men. They have been working together from the beginning. This is a travesty.

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Date: Sun, Apr 15, 2001 at 12:39:30 (GMT) From: bill- Email: None To: PatC Subject: yup Message:

Good points, also, there is no way randy prouty would have kept this from rawat. The inner circle types would have seen this as something to tell rawat. This news got to him way back when.

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Date: Sun, Apr 15, 2001 at 03:33:08 (GMT) From: bill Email: None To: Abi Subject: prem rawat IS elanvital...he was backed into a Message:

corner and the ex's were howling and he was facing a public relations disaster. Still is. We have been contacting numerous people and so rawat CHANGED his mind and played like he was concerned and denied knowing about this or having anything to do with it. That is a lie. This is not a humanitarian act. Although compared to his complete disregard stonewalling, it looks like some breakthrough. He was never a master and always a fraud, and this apology is in his best interests and so maybe once in his goddamn life he did something a bit normal. Something billions would have done long before now. Abi, I am glad that this can help you. You deserve any and all that can come to you. Many people had to scream bloody murder over years and even last week you were being blown off. I am still more than disgusted with him and there will certainly be no apology for all of HIS NUMEROUS atrocities to so very many. Happy Easter to you. May this help the process. He owed you this and more. He cant meet YOU huh? Coward. Liar. Fraud.

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Date: Sun, Apr 15, 2001 at 03:40:07 (GMT) From: Susan Email: None To: bill Subject: agree Message:

of course he can meet with Abi. He just has to care more about Abi's well being than his own hide. We'll see.

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Date: Sun, Apr 15, 2001 at 02:14:50 (GMT) From: Joey Email: None To: Abi Subject: A couple q's and comments Message:

I also appreciate that you are deeply sorry for the pain that Jagdeo has caused me, my brothers and my father. Abi, When we come to terms with the underlying forces or dynamics inherent in m's cult as in all cults, I wonder if Jagdeo's abuse can be viewed as the problem in and of itself. As stated in the 'Guru Papers': In recent years, myriad scandals within different spiritual communities have come to light. The scandals expose that the leader, or the group with the leader's knowledge, was involved in behavior contrary to the espoused message and values....these abuses were not merely isolated aberrations; rather the structure of surrendering to an authority not only increases the liklihood of corruption, but makes corruption nigh inevitable. As you and I both know, Abi, m is the ultimate authority in our cult and surrender to him the ultimate goal. We have to be cognizant of the fact that Jagdeo was only able to become an authority figure to the chidren 'by the grace of Guru Maharaji.' Did m indicate to your dad what meaningful measures he would undertake so that these underlying dynamics at the base of the corruption and abuse in his cult would be eliminated ? I understand that you feel you can't speak to me directly Why do you understand this Abi? Why can't he speak to you directly? Your humanity shone through at the meeting you had with my father I'm sorry, Abi...but I feel m has a long way to go before his humanity shines through. To begin with, dealing with the points raised in Susan's post is essential if this issue is to be addressed in a meaningful way.

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Date: Sun, Apr 15, 2001 at 01:41:15 (GMT) From: Bin Liner Email: None To: Abi Subject: Well done Abi , you got through ...... Message:

...but you got fucked over. Rawat would'nt speak to you directly because he was advised not to , for legal reasons that I don't know much about. Of course he feels that he & EV are different agencies , that's only stating the obvious . He is a 'private investor' who EV invite to speak at their functions . Smart . I really don't know what to say Abi , you & your family have been enmeshed in this nightmare & you are the ones who know what is in your best interests as to the means of sorting it out. But as you've posted in public about this ,& as I am a member of the public who knows nothing about the details , can I suggest that you are being given the bum's rush . Anyway I salute your perseverance in the cause of truth & justice , am amazed that you've made a breach in the wall , & wish you & your family well .

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Date: Sun, Apr 15, 2001 at 00:52:33 (GMT) From: Susan Email: None To: Abi Subject: Abi, I hope that M will follow through Message:

The only way to show that this meeting reflects his sincere understanding of this matter is for M to take appropriate action: A public apology to you and all victims of Jagdeo A public apology for any insinuation of the part of his people ( and they are his people he is the head of EV , we all know it even if it isn't what it says on a piece of paper) that we were nuts, lying, feebleminded. The only reason that things have come this far IS that we screamed and screamed and screamed publicly until we were heard. A public investigation of Jagdeo with a sincere effort to find all his victims and help them. I dare them to write every premie on the mailing list of EV and ask them to come forward if they were victims or know victims of Jagdeo. Most of all, use all their resources to find Jagdeo and use every way possible to see he is prosecuted in a court of law. The likely victim in 98 might be a very proscutable case in India. And an Indian jail would be an appropriate place for Jagdeo to spend the rest of his life. Mr. Rawat, show that you care more about protecting the Abi's of this word than protecting yourself.

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Date: Sun, Apr 15, 2001 at 15:02:40 (GMT) From: Katie H. Email: None To: Susan Subject: Susan, I do too - trying to understand Message:

I've read Abi's two posts in this thread over and over again trying to understand what is going on. I actually believe that M was sincere and almost crying when he talked to Abi's dad. I also believe that he had heard about the Jagdeo stuff before, but may have not been listening, or may have not cared at the moment. I think one has to take possible alcohol consumption into account here - alcoholics can get real emotional and caring and then forget about whatever the next day. Or vice versa - they can blow something off that is important by drinking. I'm just hoping M was sober when he talked to Abi's dad... What Abi's post reflect to is the extent of Maharaji's insulation from his own organization - and the people in it. He appears to be insulated, by his own wishes, from anything that might 'bother' him, or make him uncomfortable. Yes, Elan Vital is legally separate from M, but since Elan Vital wouldn't even exist except for M, it's unrealistic for him to NOT KNOW what is going on - if in fact he doesn't know. I can believe that he would deliberately choose to not know because it's boring, or because he's just not interested, or because he doesn't take the time to understand it, but in fact it is his responsibility to know what his right-hand organization is doing. In detail, no matter how boring. I also feel that Maharaji may be insulated by his alcohol consumption - assuming he is still drinking, which I don't know for a fact. Alcohol is a great insulator - and an isolator too. Frankly, Maharaji reminds me of Ronald Reagan (I hope this doesn't offend you, Susan:)!) Reagan was apparently a nice man in person, but he also seemed to prefer to be insulated from most of so-called 'details' of his administration (at least the ones he wasn't interested in!). Some of these supposed 'details' involved actions by members of the U.S. government that were illegal and reprehensible. As a result, Reagan seemed like a figurehead who was able to make inspiring speeches, but who was clueless about real day-to-day happenings in his administration - except in the rare cases when someone actually got through to him. And also as a result, he was 'Teflonized', because he could always say something happened without his knowledge. I think this is irresponsible. I guess I have to wonder what keeps Maharaji so 'busy' if he doesn't have to run his own organization, and doesn't have a clue what's going on (if this is true). Oy - this is really hard to understand! Anyway, I am glad Abi's dad finally got through and that M apparently actually LISTENED to him.

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Date: Sun, Apr 15, 2001 at 15:25:16 (GMT) From: Helen Email: None To: Katie H. Subject: Susan, I do too - trying to understand Message:

Hey Katie, Great post. The Ronald Reagan analogy is great. Asleep at the switch comes to mind! Remember when Ronald said there were no homeless people in the U.S.? As DC hometown girls, you and I both know that there are homeless people who live in Lafayette Park right across from the White House. You have to be a total dork not to see that. The distancing M does from EV, whether intentional or some sort of intense denial, is bizarre. He lives in his own little castle in the clouds.

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Date: Sun, Apr 15, 2001 at 15:33:08 (GMT) From: Katie H Email: None To: Helen Subject: Thanks Helen - but don't get me started! :) Message:

The weird thing is that the Reagan 'disconnect' WORKED, and so does the Maharaji 'disconnect'. People believed in it. I'm not saying that Reagan wasn't a nice guy in person - from all accounts, he was, and he did appear to know about some things that interested him - but then there were things like the 'no homeless people' (as you said - you just have to take a walk around the general area of the White House to see that that is not true!) I think it's unfortunate that people will buy that someone like Maharaji is above it all, and therefore doesn't have responsibility. Love to you - Katie

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Date: Sun, Apr 15, 2001 at 01:24:56 (GMT) From: Susan Email: None To: anyone Subject: also, I am getting freaky phone calls Message:

someone is calling, staying on the line and saying nothing. I hope this is not some attempt at intimidation.

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Date: Sun, Apr 15, 2001 at 04:16:58 (GMT) From: Bazza Email: None To: Susan Subject: Report it to the cops Message:

Give them the background - exiting the cult, exposing incidents of child abuse by cult 'mahatma', etc etc. They will take you seriously and find out who is responsible. If it is a premie, go to the press with it.

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Date: Sun, Apr 15, 2001 at 01:48:57 (GMT) From: Abi Email: None To: Susan Subject: also, I am getting freaky phone calls Message:

Could be some randy bastard or other who is apparently tearing his hair out as we speak.

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Date: Sun, Apr 15, 2001 at 02:03:47 (GMT) From: Susan Email: None To: Abi Subject: whoever it is Message:

I tried *69 ( a call back function ) and it 'this feature is functioning but won't work with this number'. If it happens again I will find out the legal thing to do to stop it. There are ways to trace harrassing callers pretty easily these days.

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Date: Sun, Apr 15, 2001 at 04:21:29 (GMT) From: Bazza Email: None To: Susan Subject: star 69 Message:

Just blocks normal consumer caller ID. The Feds will be able to trace it no matter what the caller does to hide it. Misuse of the telephone system is also a felony, especially if it crosses State lines. If you don't want to go that route just yet, speak with an operator or phone co. rep - they can initiate call-logging for you so if it does continue you already have a history on file. Email me if you're not sure what to do bazza

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Date: Sun, Apr 15, 2001 at 02:29:54 (GMT) From: G Email: None To: Susan Subject: Any advice for Susan?, call trace Message:

Susan, Maybe one of the lawyers here can give you some advice. I believe there are some good guidelines for dealing with harassing phone calls. The call can most likely be traced by the telephone company via a Call Trace feature. I can't see any reason this service would not be available. Here's some information on, for example, Grand River Mutual Telephone's Call Trace feature. The identity of the caller can be provided by the telephone company to the police. G

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Date: Sun, Apr 15, 2001 at 04:59:43 (GMT) From: Susan Email: None To: G Subject: Since I posted it has stopped Message:

but I will take all this advice if it resumes. I wondered if it was someone who was drunk? Stoned? Maybe they passed out? You could tell there was someone saying nothing on the other side of the phone. And also, I do not know who it was. Too many prospects at this point.

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Date: Sun, Apr 15, 2001 at 05:08:15 (GMT) From: Selene Email: None To: Susan and Abi Subject: not surprised it stopped Message:

Susan I'm sorry about the phone calls. It's a horrible feeling. As has been said *69 won't work. They can use e-switching etc to hide where they are calling from. But you can complain, file a report to police. Stalking is taken much more seriously these days. Abi I hope you found comfort and will continue to. It makes me ill that M still hides but he knows now that it's not so easy anymore.

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Date: Sun, Apr 15, 2001 at 01:10:49 (GMT) From: Richard Email: None To: Susan Subject: Abi, some questions Message:

I am confused. Is this a hypothetical letter or is it based on the fact your dad had a meeting with M? If your dad did have the meeting, could you relate some of what went on there? Did your dad deliver the letter that relates your story? What was said to M? What did he say? Do I read corrctly that M says he has nothing to do with his instructors' schedules? If so that is not at all believable. Thank you, Richard

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Date: Sun, Apr 15, 2001 at 01:55:42 (GMT) From: Abi Email: None To: Richard Subject: Abi, some questions Message:

My father met Maharaji alone yesterday at Amaroo for about 40min and spoke with him about the Jagdeo issue. Maharaji had only just read my father's letter the day before. He was very moved, very upset, almost to tears. They spoke father to father about this issue. Basically M said how sorry he was over and over again and that EV had to take care of it. My father then met with Valerio who said that EV would seek to bring Jagdeo to justice, offer a public apology and see about dealing with the damage this has caused. Valerio maintains that Jagdeo is in India somewhere. I have a three year old boy I have to take care of right now so I have to go. Abi

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Date: Sun, Apr 15, 2001 at 02:53:57 (GMT) From: FoMF (or whatever) Email: None To: Abi Subject: Abi, some questions Message:

Abi, I am very pleased to hear this meeting took place. I can also tell you that Valerio is a very honorable man, and if he says the matter will be dealt with by Elan Vital, it will. He is a man of his word. This is not an issue of premies vs ex's. This is a matter of a)finding closure for the victims and b) making sure it never happens again. You have more sympathy among the premies I speak to than you can possibly know. Childhood is precious. Hearing what happened to you makes my own dysfunctional childhood sound like a cakewalk. Love and best wishes, Friend of Abi, Susan, Mike Finch, and anyone else with a kind and fragile heart

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Date: Mon, Apr 16, 2001 at 03:40:53 (GMT) From: michael donner Email: None To: FoMF (or whatever) Subject: Abi, some questions Message:

hi fomf...just returned and have read a couple of your recent posts. you sound as if you are still in the know. i understand that alvaro...valario's brother is m's guy for int'l financial and legal stuff. is the valario referred to his brother and one time cook at residence...?? my question is, did m assign him because valario is now legally or in some way connected to e.v.? or was he selected to meet with abi's father as a special assignment given to him by m for this purpose? if valario is not the head of int;l e.v. then what power will valario have with/over e.v. to bring jagdeo to justice (so to speak)? especially given that m is somehow trying to distance himself from e.v. and if you are in the know...what is your personal belief/understanding regarding e.v.'s separation from m's control. is it possible that e.v. could act outside the wishes of m?? that anyone could retain their positon in e.v. if they did not do what m wanted? please respond to these particular questions. thanks and why it is easy to know that i did not ever hear of jagdeo and randy and judy did is because of the back door channels that m has carefully kept in place over the years...if someone wanted access to m...sort of outside the 'normal' dlm/ev way the 'residence' premies were always there for that purpose. perhaps that might explain valario's involvement even now if indeed he is not an e.v executive but really a residence person who m feels he can trust and who others will listen to becasue he is from the 'residence'. what do you think might be going on here?

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Date: Sun, Apr 15, 2001 at 04:27:42 (GMT) From: Bazza Email: None To: FoMF (or whatever) Subject: Why don't you... Message:

just say who you are, Friend of Mike Finch? You realize how weird you come across as - making out to be everybody's pal and yet not having the cohones to reveal yourself? A general rule of thumb here is that anonymous premie posters warrant very little credibility. Take a stand, or why bother wasting your time? Yeah 'love and best wishes' to you too bazza (Barry Shaw)

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Date: Sun, Apr 15, 2001 at 03:38:12 (GMT) From: Susan Email: None To: FoMF (or whatever) Subject: a concern FoMF Message:

You seem to be very forthright, and I really appreciate your comments. I have no doubt that the fact that many premies have joined us in voicing our intolerance that the Jagdeo issue has gone unanswered for so long has been a factor leading to some change in the response of Rawat. My concern is the Valerio is honorable part. Maybe he is, I do not know him, but I have heard rumors that just a week ago what Valerio said was different, and it was implied what we were saying about Jagdeo was groundless and must reflect mental imbalance on our parts. Why the change? I can only guess there was a change in strategy? A change in strategy because ? I do not know. Maybe Rawat decided it was time to deal with this. But that is the problem. My antennae tell me that to this day a substantial part of the premie world is willing to lie, and be decietful, to protect Rawat. Why? Because they see him as a 'master' and worthy of loyalty that goes beyond ethics. Rawat, if he really talked man to man to Abi's dad. Needs to dispel that notion. He needs to confront his past and apologize. Because he is a human with too much power, and that power and the sickening loyalty it engenders is in large measure why Jagdeo got away with this for so long. I do not think people would have known about Jagdeo for years and done nothing were it not the culture of worship we were all enmeshed in. A culture Rawat nurtured, he was the one we sang arti to 'superior power in person'. He needs to deal with Jagdeo, but he then needs to deal with a lot of other things. Jagdeo though, in my mind, is the first thing he should deal with. If it is true he really is, I welcome that. I take offense, as any thinking person should, to the notion EV and Rawat are such seperate entities. That is a sham, a shell game, and it would be easily proven as such in court if it came to that. If Rawat said tomorrow, I want so and so and so and so to resign, they would. In my day, if he had said he wanted them to bark like dogs and hop on one foot at the next event they would have too. Nothing makes me think that his power in EV has fundamentally changes. It is simply an organization by which he can attempt to insulate himself from liability, and I think he thinks the general public will buy that, and only premies willbuy that , and I think premies will buy the London Bridge if Rawat was selling that too.

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Date: Sun, Apr 15, 2001 at 09:25:54 (GMT) From: PatC Email: None To: Susan Subject: Susan, you summed it up completely Message:

You said: ''...a substantial part of the premie world is willing to lie, and be decietful, to protect Rawat. Why? Because they see him as a 'master' and worthy of loyalty that goes beyond ethics.'' And: ''I take offense, as any thinking person should, to the notion EV and Rawat are such seperate entities. That is a sham, a shell game...'' And: ''It is simply an organization by which he can attempt to insulate himself from liability, and I think he thinks the general public will buy that, and only premies will buy that , and I think premies will buy the London Bridge if Rawat was selling that too.'' I had to repeat what you said because you said it so clearly and powerfully and, as far as I am concerned, this convenient ''separation of church and reverend'' issue cannot be iterated enough. To me the Jagdeo issue will not be an effective lever until the illusion that Rev Rawat and EV are separate entities is dispelled. It is THE main lie.

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Date: Sun, Apr 15, 2001 at 04:22:59 (GMT) From: FoMF (or whatever) Email: None To: Susan Subject: a concern FoMF Message:

Susan, My concern is the Valerio is honorable part. Maybe he is, I do not know him, but I have heard rumors that just a week ago what Valerio said was different, and it was implied what we were saying about Jagdeo was groundless and must reflect mental imbalance on our parts. Why the change? I can only guess there was a change in strategy? A change in strategy because ? I do not know. Maybe Rawat decided it was time to deal with this. Well - I've sort of gone out of my way (and out on a limb) to tell you that almost no one remembers hearing about the Jagdeo incidents. I posted here to tell you I was the only person I'd come across in the premie world who HAD - and again, I know a lot of people. You have to admit that the two subjects - the general antagonism for M, and Jagdeo's crimes, get mixed up together here. Just read this thread, or the one that came out of the report of your call to Judy. It likely confused the issue. I think what happened is it finally sunk in that this is real, and needs to be dealt with, separate from any other issues. Like I said in my original post, its sort of incomprehensible that Donner and/or Dettmers never heard about it. I don't understand it. Yet, all of a sudden, after I 'confessed' to hearing about it, 2 ex's admitted they'd heard about it too. As Abi asks - WHO ELSE KNEW? Its a very good question. I think we'd ALL like to know that answer. Including EV. But that is the problem. My antennae tell me that to this day a substantial part of the premie world is willing to lie, and be decietful, to protect Rawat. Why? Like I said before, you really can't view us as a clump. Are there are people who would do that? Probably. Why? Seems pretty clear. Misplaced values. Would I? No. I can also tell you he has never asked me to lie or be deceitful. He has asked me to be impeccable in my actions. Whether he asked me to or not, I would attempt to do that. That's MY responsibility. Its my life, my conscience, my journey (lite or otherwise). I can only re-iterate one thing. If Valerio says he is going to deal with this - it WILL be dealt with. So - I'm done posting here. I wish you the best....

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Date: Sun, Apr 15, 2001 at 20:06:31 (GMT) From: Jim Sander Email: None To: FoMF (or whatever) Subject: FOMF-would you consider answering my post? Message:

It was posted down below, under Susan-my phone call with Judy today. It's under my name: JS-FOMF-I have a few questions... I'd just like to know a bit more about where you stand on some of this stuff, especially since you say that m has never asked you to lie or anything like that. In my opinion, we were all being asked to lie, when we went out into the communities to 'propagate' the Knowledge-lite, when we all knew something quite different had gone on and was going on... Take care, JS

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Date: Sun, Apr 15, 2001 at 15:03:12 (GMT) From: Jerry Email: None To: FoMF (or whatever) Subject: Are you happy, now? Message:

So, FoMF, Maharaji has come down off his perch and expresses regret over this whole sordid situation, but sorry, his hands are clean of it; 'may I refer you to, Elan Vital? I really must be getting back on my perch so I can be loved and adored, once more, as I have always been'. Do you feel Maharaji has cleared his name? Are all doubts removed from your mind? Will you go home and shower your pictures of Maharaji with big, wet, kisses and more love and devotion than ever before? Isn't that what it's all about, FoMF? Don't you secretly hate anybody who questions Maharaji or does anything to cause you to question him? Well, think about this. Maharaji waited a looooong time before he came down off his throne to soothe your little mind that he's blameless in this affair. Aren't you a tad angry at him for that? Shouldn't he have spoken up sooner? Just lila, perhaps, a test. Or the perfect timing of the perfect master, who does everything, just perfectly, right? There might be others, here, who think you're sincere about your concern for the victims, but, Christ, FoMF, have they forgotten you're in a cult? They must have, because if they haven't, they'd remember their own days in it, when, in their minds, all of this would have just been maya, lila, lies and deceit meant to bring Maharaji down. But by coming down off his throne, himself, he's stopped us from doing that, hasn't he? What a guy! I think you're despicable. Your thin veneer of concern covering your hate is clear to see for people who haven't forgot what it means to be in a cult. You're living on a cloud of devotion, and we almost brought you down from that. Surely, you must hate us for it. How could you do otherwise? I don't know exactly what your intent in posting here is, but it's certainly not to express compassion for those damaged by this superstitious cult.

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Date: Sun, Apr 15, 2001 at 18:00:24 (GMT) From: fomf Email: None To: Jerry Subject: Are you happy, now? Message:

Okay - one last time. I am happy the situation is being dealt with. I'm disappointed it took so long. I trust the person who is dealing with it. I think you're despicable. Your thin veneer of concern covering your hate is clear to see for people who haven't forgot what it means to be in a cult. You're living on a cloud of devotion, and we almost brought you down from that. Surely, you must hate us for it. How could you do otherwise? I don't know exactly what your intent in posting here is, but it's certainly not to express compassion for those damaged by this superstitious cult. I don't hate you...I dont even f'ing know you. You, on the other hand, who dont know me, think I'm despicable. One of us is being a little twisted here, and frankly, it ain't me. I apologize if my relief at this thing being dealt with came off as cult-like. I was just happy to see some possible closure for the victims. You know what, if that makes me a cult-member - I'll live with it. Now, say what you will about my intentions in posting here - but at least we all learned something interesting. We found out that there were some people who'd heard the rumors besides me. And that they were floating around Denver. So, that's a good start. I will continue to snoop around and try to find out who knew what, and when they knew it. Take care

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Date: Mon, Apr 16, 2001 at 13:24:41 (GMT) From: Abi Email: None To: fomf Subject: Thank you Message:

xx

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Date: Sun, Apr 15, 2001 at 20:36:43 (GMT) From: Jerry Email: None To: fomf Subject: Are you happy, now? Message:

I apologize if my relief at this thing being dealt with came off as cult-like. I was just happy to see some possible closure for the victims. You know what, if that makes me a cult-member - I'll live with it. It's not that you come off as cult-like. You don't, yet you're in a cult. You believe in Maharaji as a true master, some kind of divine entity. We question that. So, now Maharaji has done something that reassures you that he's a true master after all, perfect in every way. What I find despicable is that you act as if THAT's not the bottom line. I'm just basing this on when I believed in M, and I don't think I was anywhere near devoted as you are. I was a fringe premie who left right after satsang so I didn't have to stick around for that pagan ritual called arti. I bet you were right there in the middle of it, whooping it up with the rest of them. Now, all of a sudden you're happy that the victims have found closure. Sorry, FoMF, but the two images don't go terribly hand in hand. What I suspect is that now that Maharaji has finally done something to address this issue, you're just bursting at the seams to start singing arti again, later for the victims.

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Date: Sun, Apr 15, 2001 at 12:33:57 (GMT) From: kev Email: None To: FoMF (or whatever) Subject: The bigger picture-FoMF Message:

Hello FoMF (or whatever) You said in your post 'I can also tell you he has never asked me to lie or be deceitful' Er hello FoMF, do you or have you ever propagated m's k I very much suspect you have being the good premie that you are. So tell me this FoMF, when you tell new people about m and his wonderful k do you also tell them that m once liked to be called The Lord of the Universe and at one time loved to dress up as Lord Krishna and dance about on the stage like a big prate. Or maybe you tell them about how m encouraged his premies to live in his ashrams and live the life of a monk and have no hanky-panky while all the time he was having as much hanky-panky as possible. Or maybe (as your such an honest person and of course would nerver tell a lie) that m has made millions out of being the 'Lord of the Universe' and the fact that he lives in a fucking great big house on the hill in Malibu. The list is endless FoMF and I'm sure you could add to it yourself. So do you tell new people any of the above? No I very much doubt it. You may not think that you lie for m but each time you do not tell a person the whole truth about m's past you are still lying for him. One of the main reasons I quit was because I realised that for the last 13 years a large part of my life was based on one big lie and that lie is still being repeated each time you tell someone about m and not tell them the whole story. Hope you get to read this FoMF, Kev.

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Date: Sun, Apr 15, 2001 at 19:06:00 (GMT) From: PatC Email: None To: kev Subject: and the biggest lie of all: ''M is not EV'' NT Message:

g

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Date: Sun, Apr 15, 2001 at 05:22:09 (GMT) From: Selene Email: None To: FoMF (or whatever) Subject: a concern FoMF Message:

How did you go out on a limb when no one knows who you are? Your comments were appreciated so that's fine with me but I wouldn't say you risked much.

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Date: Sun, Apr 15, 2001 at 05:46:59 (GMT) From: Bazza Email: None To: Selene Subject: Great minds....... Message:

I just asked him/her that!! :) But true, right?

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Date: Sun, Apr 15, 2001 at 05:51:24 (GMT) From: Selene Email: None To: Bazza Subject: Great minds.......oh just read it Message:

It won't hurt him to read it twice

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Date: Sun, Apr 15, 2001 at 05:07:41 (GMT) From: Bazza Email: None To: FoMF (or whatever) Subject: At the risk of labouring the point... Message:

assuming you're still here that is - (Isn't amaroo broadcasting soon??) Well - I've sort of gone out of my way (and out on a limb) to tell you that almost no one remembers hearing about the Jagdeo incidents. I posted here to tell you I was the only person I'd come across in the premie world who HAD - and again, I know a lot of people. You do realize how stupid this sounds coming from somebody who won't give they're name, don't you? In what way are you going out on a limb? You have taken absolutely no risk at all saying what you have...you're ANONYMOUS, remember? Duh! And gee, thanks for letting us know you're the 'only person I'd come across in the premie world who HAD [heard about Jagdeo incidents]', big help Mr....Mrs....Ms.....? You have to admit that the two subjects - the general antagonism for M, and Jagdeo's crimes, get mixed up together here. Why do you think that is? Couldn't be that M. happens to be the cult leader, and Jagdeo a cult official, and the former has shirked all responsibility for the latter's crimess, which I might add were only possible by virtue of the access to children M. granted him as an Initiator? Think about that for a moment will you? Just read this thread, or the one that came out of the report of your call to Judy. It likely confused the issue. I think what happened is it finally sunk in that this is real, and needs to be dealt with, separate from any other issues. Nice attempt at spin. Trouble is, after a while you kinda get the knack for recognizing cult-spin for what it is, an attempt at maneouvering the onus away from maharaji and towards some intangible 'circumstances'. Why should it be dealt with away from other issues? The issue IS the fact that children were sexually abused BY one of M.'s representatives, IN one of M,'s ashrams, and in an environment of trust, respect and fear CREATED by M. Talk your way around that if you can. WHO ELSE KNEW? Its a very good question. I think we'd ALL like to know that answer. Including EV. So why don't y'all put your names down on a petition to maharaji and DEMAND some answers. Yeah, I can see that happening, you can't even identify yourself here, let alone get in your Master's face about it. Like I said before, you really can't view us as a clump. Are there are people who would do that? Probably. Why? Seems pretty clear. Misplaced values. Would I? No. I can also tell you he has never asked me to lie or be deceitful. He has asked me to be impeccable in my actions. Whether he asked me to or not, I would attempt to do that. That's MY responsibility. Its my life, my conscience, my journey (lite or otherwise). This is a gem. Don't you think that engaging in a conversation, hinting that you know certain facts about this situation and defending your integrity and maharaji's honour, without saying who you are IS being deceitful? Why can't you see that? I can only re-iterate one thing. If Valerio says he is going to deal with this - it WILL be dealt with. Well if YOU say so, we can rest assured, right? Jeezus...... So - I'm done posting here. I wish you the best.... Have a nice day.

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Date: Sun, Apr 15, 2001 at 18:35:23 (GMT) From: Chuck Sprague Email: None To: Bazza Subject: Excellent, Bazza! (nt) Message:

A

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Date: Sun, Apr 15, 2001 at 09:31:28 (GMT) From: PatC Email: None To: Bazza Subject: Mike Finch should be ashamed of this friend Message:

and should perhaps think of disowning him/her with his/her fake bravery behind a face of anonymity. Thanks, Bazza. That was an wonderful post.

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Date: Sun, Apr 15, 2001 at 15:51:37 (GMT) From: Moldy Warp Email: None To: PatC Subject: Pat - did you get my email?! (ot)(nt) Message:

nt

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Date: Sun, Apr 15, 2001 at 17:33:55 (GMT) From: PatC Email: None To: Moldy Warp Subject: Yes, Moldy, but mine to you bounced this a.m. Message:

I just sent it again.

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Date: Sun, Apr 15, 2001 at 20:25:37 (GMT) From: Moldy Warp Email: None To: PatC Subject: Check mailbox again please...(nt) Message:

nt

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Date: Sun, Apr 15, 2001 at 21:07:17 (GMT) From: PatC Email: None To: Moldy Warp Subject: Okay, I will (nt) Message:

j

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Date: Sun, Apr 15, 2001 at 09:00:35 (GMT) From: Nigel Email: None To: Bazza Subject: Exactly, Bazza.... Message:

But at least Abi now has FOMF's anonymous guarantee that Valerio is an 'honourable man'... I guess that means the kind of guy who will deal with the matter objectively; the kind of non-devotee who, if instructed by M to ensure that no mud sticks to the Krishna crown would ignore said instruction to serve the greater cause of justice and humanity. Funny that Glen Whittaker a while back should assure Anth by mail that EV had already investigated the matter but turned up nothing. Not a sausage. That Jagdeo, moreover, no longer had anything to do with the cult - that although they knew nothing about the abuse, they just happened to remove him from active service around the time the allegations reached a public platform. Perhaps a less honourable man was in charge at that point? The implications of Abi's post today are that the previous EV investigation into Jagdeo's child abuse must have been carried out WITHOUT M's knowledge or consent. As if.

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Date: Sun, Apr 15, 2001 at 05:02:06 (GMT) From: Jim Email: None To: FoMF (or whatever) Subject: That's not quite right, FoMF (if you're still here Message:

Susan said: But that is the problem. My antennae tell me that to this day a substantial part of the premie world is willing to lie, and be decietful, to protect Rawat. Why? You replied: Like I said before, you really can't view us as a clump. Are there are people who would do that? Probably. You're side-stepping her point. She's specifically talking about the percentage or portion of premies who'd lie for Maharaji. For you to concede that there are probably people who'd do that, without commenting on what porportion of premies they might be, evades the point. Of course you wouldn't want to evade anything here, so I thought I'd just point that out for you. Now, do you or don't you agree that 'a substantial part of the premie world is willing to lie, and be decietful [sic] to protect Rawat'?

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Date: Sun, Apr 15, 2001 at 08:29:40 (GMT) From: Abi's Big Sister Email: None To: Jim Subject: Valerio Message:

I don't trust this person. I understand that he also recently said that Elan Vital and Divine Light Mission are unrelated organizations. That is a lie. There is a corporate document on file with the Secretary of State in California which shows that the name of Divine Light Mission was changed to Elan Vital. If Valerio is willing to lie about something so easily disproven, what else is he lying about? All this from the person who days ago suggested that Abi needed professional help because 'his' investigation turned up no abuse by Jagdeo. FOMF, it is this behavior by Valerio that undermines your assertion that Valerio is going to take care of the situation in an honorable way. Maharaji just read the letter from Abi's dad? What are these people thinking? They are afraid the messenger is going to be killed. Abi and Susan, you have forced the cult to finally deal with Jagdeo's sexual abuse -- at least to confront it. Time will tell if they actually do anything about it. Your hard work and painful honesty have been an inspiration to all of us. The cult is mouthing the right words now. As my mother used to say, 'The road to hell is paved with good intentions.' The next few days and weeks will tell us which road they intend to take.

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Date: Sun, Apr 15, 2001 at 13:52:13 (GMT) From: Ian Dury Email: None To: Abi's Big Sister Subject: Valerio - M's lawyer - that says it all! (nt) Message:

xx

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Date: Sun, Apr 15, 2001 at 19:13:39 (GMT) From: Ian Dury Email: None To: Abi's Big Sister Subject: Sorry - Valerio - brother of M's lawyer (nt) Message:

xx

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Date: Mon, Apr 16, 2001 at 03:23:55 (GMT) From: donner Email: None To: Ian Dury Subject: Sorry - Valerio - brother of M's lawyer (nt) Message:

valario is the brother of alvaro...both made initiators/instructors by m. valario and alvaro are and have been xrated for a long long time...alvaro took over from john miller as butler and valario became cook at residence for years. those is l.a. know more about there recent past then i do.. valario studied psychology for awhile. alvaro has taken over most of what michael dettmers use to do...on the international coordination of m's personal financial/legal stuff. interesting that brothers are working both sides of the street for m. one for e v apparently and one personally...both supported by e.v. i'll bet.

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Date: Mon, Apr 16, 2001 at 20:49:34 (GMT) From: bill Email: None To: donner Subject: rawat's right hand mafia.... (nt) Message:

dvcbnds

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Date: Sat, Apr 14, 2001 at 21:44:21 (GMT) From: Ulf Email: None To: Everyone Subject: Going on Message:

Hey all Please no new age answers here I went to see some new people, with my wife and my kids , they where nice people and the kids and my wife had a great time , and so did i , somehow. One year ago i left M Since then i have lost my belive system completly, and i am so very happy that i did , i cant belive i was 25 years involvet. But at the risk off you thinking i am a fool, i most say that it is not feeling very well for me now. I am a mann with no past life , my talking with people are not what i want to talk about.And it is not because i want to tell them about my involment with M Off course i tell my wife , and she understand a part of the way (She was newer a premie, or into religions at all) I know all the answers , beeen in psyko analyses for 4 years and stopped , because i was done, no more qustions, finito. So really i dont need all the right answers. And i am not feeling that i know more than any of you So here i am allmost 50 years It is mostly O.k. but not really Perhaps there are a lot like me out there, on this forum we are happy that it is all over . But how do you really go on. Ulf

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Date: Sun, Apr 15, 2001 at 14:34:22 (GMT) From: Katie H Email: None To: Ulf Subject: Going on Message:

Hi Ulf - I think you've expressed what a lot of people here are feeling - or have felt (very good post, by the way). I don't think there are any 'answers', although you've gotten some good responses. As Mercedes said, it IS like coming out of a bad marriage. You do feel like you've lost a piece of your past, and that you have to pick up little pieces of yourself that got lost too, but are worth keeping. As Bryn said, a lot of people who are around our age and were never premies feel the same way (I don't know if that makes you feel any better, but it does make me feel better). I know parents whose kids are all grown up tend to feel that way too. And, as Bryn also said, you have to remember who you were BEFORE these things happened to you - that helps me too. You wrote: I am a man with no past life , my talking with people are not what i want to talk about.And it is not because i want to tell them about my involvment with M. I am not sure exactly what you mean here, but I think I feel the same way sometimes. I don't really have a long history with anyone who is around in my life now. There are whole parts of my life that I don't talk about because no one is interested, or because they won't be able to understand. It's not just the involvement with M, it is all the little things that happened along the way too. Sometimes it makes me feel unreal - like you said: I am 45 years old and have no past life. It has really helped me to post on the forum. I feel like I got a big part of my life back - the time when I was involved with Maharaji. I don't want to talk about the devotion, or about M, but it is good to be able to talk about what happened back then. Also, one thing Brian and I have found is that we miss 'satsang' (NOT satsang about M !!, but I don't know what else to call it). I mean people talking about what is important in their lives. We have met some ex-premies in person and we have liked being with them a lot because they DO think and talk about these things - we usually don't even talk about being premies when we are together, but we seem to be interested in the same things. Anyway, no answers from me, but your question of 'how do you really go on' was a good one. I hope it helps to know that some other people out there are thinking the same thing. Love, Katie

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Date: Sun, Apr 15, 2001 at 12:51:18 (GMT) From: Bryn Email: Bryndaviesesq@hotmail.com To: Ulf Subject: Going on Message:

Dear Ulf, Your question 'how do you really go on?' inspires in me a great respect for you. Me, I am going back to the point when I first heard about k, and then backing up again some. I do know that it is possible to salvage something from the 25 years of sleep. What is salvageable depends on how you as an individual invested yourself in the first place. For me it was mystical egotism that drove me. So at least I am now in possession of a vast repertoire of un-assimilated 'cosmic' stuff! Big deal some might say but to me it retains some value. Another rather weak plus to build on is the realisation that all my delusion has been focused in one box(sort of)! I have spoken to other fifty-plus folk (not exs) and they describe similar uncertainties about how to go on, but their past is littered with unresolved strands from an overwhelming number of different directions. Small consolation I know. It is not neccessary to write off such a large chunk of life as beyond redemption, and I am certain that this is an evolution, not a void. Your question is actually a vey delicate compass needle I think. I have been an ex for sure, only about six months, but that little question has been steering me for years. Finally ( could go on for pages), the techniques of K have a lot to answer for. Thats why I am backing up so far in reviewing all this. My worldview at the time of first encountering K and the guru was totally in my un-conscious. It needed first to be made conscious, then worked with. Instead I was given the means to merge it out of existence altogether. I now take the notion of a world view seriously and I investigate in a spirit of responsibility and some caution-PERSONALLY. Anyway Ulf thanks for putting the question. love Bryn Ps It is such a relief to have my OWN life back. K. and M literally made me a spectator in my own life.

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Date: Sun, Apr 15, 2001 at 02:06:51 (GMT) From: Mercedes Email: None To: Ulf Subject: I was just thinking... Message:

...that our years in the cult are like a bad marriage. What a concept! So now I am out, some people are interested as other posters have said some are not so you go along. This is a fact that is part of us, part of our lives, don't know what else to say. Mercedes

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Date: Sun, Apr 15, 2001 at 00:02:04 (GMT) From: Abi Email: None To: Ulf Subject: Going on Message:

Dear Ulf, you start by respecting that you are a courageous man, you start by respecting your quest for truth, you start by speaking out, you start by finding the humour in all of this. You laugh out the pain. Feel no shame. Love, Abi

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Date: Sat, Apr 14, 2001 at 23:04:15 (GMT) From: Selene Email: None To: Ulf Subject: it slowly gets better Message:

Thanks for the new agey comment. It's getting to be a bit much for me too. Life just goes on Ulf, what's the alternative? I have learned my three years out of the cult that I was and am still missing the drama - which was a big part of the belief system for me. We had a special knowledge or secret after all (barf) I've started to learn to appreciate the little things and learn to value what I was brainwashed to not value. It's HARD!!! Extremely hard for me. I had the excuse of raising 2 kids for a lot of that time and did get a career together don't ask me how!! But I did finally this year tell 2 of my close friends one who I had met while going to school and one from work. They didn't seem to find it all that weird. The 70's were just plain weird anyway and many people were into some new age thing or another. It gets better. Still hard though, for me but better.

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Date: Sat, Apr 14, 2001 at 21:50:16 (GMT) From: Jim Email: None To: Ulf Subject: It's a real issue, Ulf -- no question about it Message:

Ulf, The only thing I could suggest is that you find some way to weave your history with the cult back into the narrative you have and share regarding who you are. When I first applied to law schools I had to write essays about myself. Rather than tell the whoel truth, I fudged the cult years, describing myself as a bit of a traveller, a guy who did a few unassuming jobs ehre and there. I always regretted that petty subterfuge. I am a product of my times. I had a hula hoop as a kid, a black light as a teenager (I STILL have one!) and a guru as a young cult member. You don't like it, too bad. That's me. It's a funny story, let's have a few laughs with it ... live and learn, whatever. Jim The Counsellor's Counsellor

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Date: Sat, Apr 14, 2001 at 22:20:31 (GMT) From: JHB Email: None To: Jim Subject: I agree, but my problem is that.... Message:

...I am now happy to talk about following a guru when I was 20, and admitting to taking quite a few years to extricate myself, but I still have a problem, on those rare occasions I talk about it, in admitting it was only two and a half years ago since I got out. Many people knew me in my thirties and forties, and never knew I was into a guru. So far, giving the impression it was something I did when I was young has been fine, and it's been refreshing to be honest in that limited way. Maybe I'll wait until I'm 60 before being totally honest about the length of my involvement:-) John.

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Date: Sat, Apr 14, 2001 at 23:46:20 (GMT) From: PatC Email: None To: JHB Subject: It's more embarassing for those who left recently Message:

I've now told my friends and family and of course some are surprised because they did not even know I was in a cult. I was ashamed of the urug for the past 18 years and told no one. The other thing is that those who stayed until recently also have many other interests besides the cult because we were not living in ashrams or involved full-time. However I've been so exhilirated to be out of it that I can't help telling people about it even my customers. Nearly everyone is interested and many have said: ''Oh, yes, I was into Shri Chinmoy or Rajneesh etc.'' If people seem interested then it is liberating to just tell the truth. So what if it's embarassing. Decent people accept shame and humiliation as part of life and appreciate honesty. Like Jim, I fudged my CV (resume) to get back into pharmacy in the US after years of dumb jobs in between festivals. I also paid the price for telling those lies because of course you have to have a good memory to tell lies. It was just like it was before I came out of the closet about being queer. Something was never quite right and I always felt I was hiding something. At first I was too pushy about it and then, once the novelty wore off, I didn't bother to tell people but neither did I hide it. Ulf, I think it was such a big part of our lives that we want to talk about it. Those people who are interested will immediately show it. If they aren't go onto another subject. If they are curious just be honest and you will probably be surprised at the fascinating conversations you will have. Most people have done something to be ashamed of in their lives. Truth really does break down barriers between people and I have connected more sincerely and freely with new friends than ever before. It's not like I am trying to impress my friends and customers with anything. I don't know anyone who I need to impress. The people I know are all ordinary folks like me. If you have unresolved issues that you want to talk about to other exes then just talk about them here. I know I keep finding things that other people post here very helpful.

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Date: Sat, Apr 14, 2001 at 23:52:30 (GMT) From: Selene Email: None To: PatC Subject: I forgot that part in my post to Ulf Message:

I do downplay how *long* I stayed. Just seeing my real friends non-judgemental reaction to my being in a cult at all was great though. Another thing, I learn a lot by watching people around me. What makes them happy, excited about life. I NEVER learned that stuff! I don't even think I learned how to love and care and nurture another human being other than my kids until this year!! And a lot of that was because I saw how much those things mean to those I care about or want to care about, something like that.

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Date: Sun, Apr 15, 2001 at 15:55:21 (GMT) From: Katie H Email: None To: Selene Subject: Really important, Selene Message:

You wrote: Another thing, I learn a lot by watching people around me. What makes them happy, excited about life. I NEVER learned that stuff! I don't even think I learned how to love and care and nurture another human being other than my kids until this year!! And a lot of that was because I saw how much those things mean to those I care about or want to care about, something like that. I grew up 'guessing what normal was', like so many of the rest of us. I did learn some of it from some of the more well-balanced premies I knew. I don't even think they were trying to teach it - and they probably thought it was just incidental or 'maya' compared to the M stuff. Stuff like actually enjoying eating dinner with other people, having a comfortable house, and so forth was mostly new to me. And as for learning how to love, care, and nurture another human being - that is an on-going process for me :). Love you, Katie

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Date: Sun, Apr 15, 2001 at 20:04:58 (GMT) From: Selene Email: None To: Katie H Subject: Really important - agree Message:

It's scary, really scary, to wake up one day and realize my identity and ability to feel for others was gone, if not stopped halfway into it's growth! And after all those years of being around people who were talking about love. I saw what you are saying in some of the premies way back then too Katie. And like you, it was a new and good experience for me after not being taught a thing growing up. I have an awful time with self help books but my therapist lent me an easy to read one last week. I didn't read it :) but did scan it and one thing that stood out was a paragraph about how adolescents learn from their parents how to or even if they can, survive in the big scary world out there. And some of us didn't get those lessons. So yes the early premie houses and communities did provide some of that for both of us. But that was then. I couldn't find that feeling in my last go around - stayed with sme premies near Malibu near the end and all I felt was sadness and a sense of loss. I get like Ulf, depressed and downright SCARED being at the age I am and knowing I didn't get the right toolkit. In fact, got a lot of bullshit programming added on from M. I really think having to work has saved my butt, especially since I've been around the same people for about 13 years now. A blessing and a curse :) but it has given me a sense of continuity and identity. As for the caring and loving and nurtuing of another, yes it is ongoing. At least I found out I was incapable of it, now I can work on it because i do want to. This type of disassociation is described here a lot in one form or another.

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Date: Sat, Apr 14, 2001 at 22:44:39 (GMT) From: Zelda Email: None To: ULF Subject: it sort is part of your biographical CV Message:

like being at Woodstock or the Light Saber. maybe I am old fashioned but our generation who got into a cult and 'did' some of the music back then and some of the other carry on - well we help the world have a conscience now. some new age might have crept in but i hope you know what I mean. still it is a bit wierd to talk to someone new -when I have a huge cult vaccum in the past. so I too fudge since I have only been out a couple of years. but it is true that I was in India and Rome ect- I just go kind of quiet when they ask why I went there. sometimes I refer to it as ''my Indian phase''. This comes up because Mhaha named one of my kids and indian name and I gave the other one an Indian name. Most times people say 'aha' with a knowing nod. The 50 age group for the most part have a few 60--70's vaccuums in their past - I dont find a need to expound. being a baby boomer is kind of a brother/sisterhood and no explanations are needed. if they dont know what happened back then maybe they shouldnt. Zelda the skywatcher.

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Date: Sun, Apr 15, 2001 at 17:59:44 (GMT) From: Ulf Email: None To: Zelda Subject: Thank you Message:

All of your answers , had made sense to me and i think you are all wonderfull people Really this forum are getting more and more importent for me Should it not be the other way around? Today i am feeling much better , but sometimes this depression really gets me And hey, I cant teel myself anymore that it is just my mind It do not work that way any more Thank you all for the support, wish someday i could meet you all Regards Ulf

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Date: Sat, Apr 14, 2001 at 17:17:30 (GMT) From: Abi's Big Sister Email: None To: Everyone Subject: EPO: Well financed, international organization Message:

Yes folks, you will be delighted to know that, according to Elan Vital and Maharaji, we are a 'large, well financed, international organization'. This sounds rather like a drug cartel, doesn't it? Now that we have been found out, and our vast resources and level of synchronization uncovered, I'm heaving a sigh of relief. No more having to deny the truth about our activities. No more having to write revisionist history FAQ's on the EPO site. To that end, I can now report that the latest Board of Directors and Shareholders meeting held on March 10 in London was a resounding success. Meetings are also scheduled for June 2 in San Francisco and in the Pacific Northwest in May. Final agendas for these meetings will be posted here. The most important business to be conducted at these meetings is the election of new members of the Board of Directors. Two different slates are competing for your votes. One slate is headed by Jim 'Hell' Heller. The 'Hell' slate oes not believe in God, would ban all premies from posting on the forum and would require the use of at least one expletive in every post. These slate members have also committed to making one phone call a week to a PAM in order to harangue them about issues of concern to ex-premies. The opposing slate is headed by Katie 'Take Care' Haering. The 'Caring' slate supports spiritual pursuits, believes in dialogues with premies, and would suspend temporarily any ex-premie who is abusive to another ex-premie (mostly this applies to the guys). The 'Caring' slate has committed itself to bringing Jagdeo to justice and has been consulting bounty hunters about the viability of such a plan. Every ex-premie is permitted to vote. In order to do so, you must first email the FA and get a special Catweasel protected password. You must also obtain a GetSmart card, containing both 'Before' and 'After' photos. Then, you must learn and perfom the secret EPO handshake. Finally, you must sign a draft permitting EPO to witdraw $1,000 US Dollars from your account every month for 'expenses'. Once you have done all of this, you will be permitted to vote. Looking forward to full participation! Abi's Big Sister

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Date: Sun, Apr 15, 2001 at 04:01:27 (GMT) From: janet Email: None To: Abi's Big Sister Subject: I SAY-YOURE DELUSIONAL AGAIN TAKE YOUR MEDS Message:

WHAT STUPIDITY. NOW WE'RE SUPPOSEDLY IN THE SAME LEAGUE WITH EV??? WOOO NOW I'M GOING TO NEED A WHOLE NEW WARDROBE. GUESS I BETTER HIT THE DUMPSTERS UP IN BEVERLY HILLS AND HOPE THAT SPRING CLEANING AND EASTER BRINGS ME LAST YEAR'S LOOK IN MY SIZE.

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Date: Sat, Apr 14, 2001 at 19:45:27 (GMT) From: Sir Dave Email: None To: Abi's Big Sister Subject: EPO: Well financed, international organization Message:

Where is it written that Maharaji and Elan Vital said that? Of course, my own part of the organisation is financed by the well known millianaire publisher, Mr G.E.O. Cities. .. Dave

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Date: Sat, Apr 14, 2001 at 20:24:37 (GMT) From: Abi's Big Sister Email: None To: Sir Dave Subject: EPO: Well financed, international organization Message:

I don't divulge my sources, but believe me, people from EV said these things in the last few days. Sir Dave, I am sure they have factored in Mr. GEO Cities and your vast income.

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Date: Sat, Apr 14, 2001 at 20:41:38 (GMT) From: Jean-Michel Email: None To: Abi's Big Sister Subject: They have to rationalyze it some way Message:

I guess. As they'll never be able to face reality, then there has to be some valid explanation for EPO's strength: MONEY !!!!

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Date: Sun, Apr 15, 2001 at 15:11:45 (GMT) From: Katie H Email: None To: Jean-Michel Subject: Don't I wish this was true! (snicker) Message:

I wonder where they think the 'well-financed' part COMES from. Sheesus! Oh yeah, I 'forgot' I was independently wealthy. Can someone remind me so I can quit my day job :)?

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Date: Sun, Apr 15, 2001 at 00:41:46 (GMT) From: Susan Email: None To: Jean-Michel Subject: yes, that the Miragey has so many ex's money? Message:

Abi's childhood home? Joe's trust fund? The money earned or worth of the years of effort of so many former ashram premies? The person with the deepest pockets is Rawat himself. If a well financed mulitnational organization is bringing Rawat down we all know the reality. His own actions, lack of action, and inablilty to accept responsbility for his past and present are bringing him down. He is his own worst enemy. The well financed organization is Rawat, and EV, and since no one has more control over EV's machinations than Rawat himself he is effectively self destructing due to his own cowardice.

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Date: Sat, Apr 14, 2001 at 19:44:36 (GMT) From: Kelly Email: None To: Abi's Big Sister?? Subject: I'd like to offer my services as Treasurer Message:

I am over 18, of sound mind, ( erhem!) and have never been convicted for fraud. Although I did once belong to a cult that was basically a total fraud. I'm sure you won't hold that against me, because I freely gave them money for years, and they don't even charge a membership fee. So $1,000 dollars a month will not be a problem for me, and I would rise to the challenge of handling extremely large sums of money. What sort of company car would I get? a Lexus would do. And out of pocket expenses of up to say $40,000 dollars a month? But what does salam mean about dimples, are they a job requisite? Can anyone recommend a good plastic surgeon? Yours since early Kelly Konne

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Date: Sat, Apr 14, 2001 at 17:43:07 (GMT) From: salam Email: None To: Abi's Big Sister Subject: what about the dimples? Message:

How come I think I know you?

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Date: Sat, Apr 14, 2001 at 18:14:01 (GMT) From: Selene Email: None To: salam Subject: what about the dimples? Message:

Do you have dimples Salam? I'm thinking I should get ne of those glam pics done for my card :) I don't check my spelling or punctuation and don't fit into either faction since I can't figure out what to discuss or not discuss and can't go back to Hell. What to do? But of course the 1000 $$ a month is not a problem I am happy to donate so maybe they'll let me hang around.

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Date: Sun, Apr 15, 2001 at 05:07:55 (GMT) From: sean Email: None To: Selene Subject: What about my missing fingers? Message:

I'll never master that handshake and I paid my dues two years in advance!

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Date: Sun, Apr 15, 2001 at 05:12:24 (GMT) From: Selene Email: None To: sean Subject: I didn't even know there was a handshake Message:

Just as well it sounds like. Hey someone actually talked to me today. I was starting to think the bongo list was being passed around again :)

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Date: Mon, Apr 16, 2001 at 00:59:59 (GMT) From: sean Email: None To: Selene Subject: Didn't you get the manual? Message:

It covers all of it. Don't let any premies see it-very hush hush, on the QT, know whut I mean, nudge nudge, wink wink.

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Date: Mon, Apr 16, 2001 at 01:15:54 (GMT) From: Selene Email: None To: sean Subject: no I never will Message:

I've dissembled too many times on here to get the manual. I hate reading manuals anyway. i did find out the registration fee for the CA Strategic Planning Meetings are quite expensive but of course I do not mind. It's a small price to pay. A mind is a terrible thing to waste. On that note, I think I'll go watch Future-rama. Been here too much on and off today. How do you meditate w/o those fingers? Just kidding!!

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Date: Sun, Apr 15, 2001 at 07:23:28 (GMT) From: janet Email: None To: Selene Subject: yo-we got gang signs, 2? word up, homies! Message:

E--P'S, YO. WE COOL! WE DOWN WID DAT. SHOW YOA COLORS, MAN. CHEEE-IL. 'S'ALL GUUUD. KNOWHUTAMSAYIN?

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Date: Sun, Apr 15, 2001 at 09:27:14 (GMT) From: salam Email: None To: janet Subject: please tell me what's the object of the discussion Message:

hey Selene, u could be right, Bazza is here. zo wazup with you? Are u one a satair again. I had a great day of doing absolutly nothing, above from eating, talking, drinking and falling backward and having a good afternoon sleep. can't complain about it. 20 years ago I would have spent it on that fat gugu haharaji and will be blaming myself for not meditatiting for more than half the morning.

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Date: Sun, Apr 15, 2001 at 23:56:56 (GMT) From: Selene Email: None To: salam Subject: don't think it's object oriented Salam Message:

You give my posts in this thread too much credit by calling them satire but thanks. I was being a brat, buttons got pushed.

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Date: Mon, Apr 16, 2001 at 00:20:39 (GMT) From: Salam Email: None To: Selene Subject: If it is not an Oop then it's a Noop Message:

Don't worry, same here. So do think Bazza is a b***o?

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Date: Mon, Apr 16, 2001 at 00:31:20 (GMT) From: Selene Email: None To: Salam Subject: Noop Message:

sorry I think Bazza is OK. And I don't think he is Rob. That was a Cat thing. and well, we know how Cat can be. My new Where is Carmen Electra suspect is Robert S. So much for that. I understand why you got angry initially but it's too complicated to follow. As you said, what a bunch!!! Where is that SB anyway?

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Date: Mon, Apr 16, 2001 at 12:40:03 (GMT) From: salam Email: None To: Selene Subject: donno. Message:

Haven't spoken to her in a long time. Bitch never answers(Ohh don't tell her or am dead meat). So you think Rob is among us, yar?

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Date: Tues, Apr 17, 2001 at 02:44:03 (GMT) From: Selene Email: None To: salam Subject: shhh remember what Janet said above - OT Message:

(not sure what I am OT of though) Speaking names is a powerful invokation. That was what I meant, Janet mentions this above. eeesh. I'm burnt out, programmed all day no more - going to watch mindless TV Aly McBeal and read British version of same, Bridgete Jones's Diary. Hamnmy you out there? Thanks for comparing my writing style too bad the author beat me to it. sigh. I had read the reviews and tried to read before a long time ago but could not read at all then. L, Selene no alcohol units 4 tobacco units 1100 hundred calories but worked them off in stress.

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Date: Tues, Apr 17, 2001 at 02:53:33 (GMT) From: ps Email: None To: ps Subject: oooops didn't mean you SB - OT Message:

I hate e communications.

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Date: Sat, Apr 14, 2001 at 11:28:33 (GMT) From: If Rawat and EV really Email: None To: Everyone Subject: cared about Jagdeo danger... Message:

...they would take the necessary steps to have this man brought before the authorities for questioning. Despite his age, he is a sick and troubled man. If Rawat cared about anyone other than himself, this would be the obvious move to ensure some safety to those still vulnerable to him. Susan is in the best position to know about Judy's veracity. However, if EV has any credibility they must now bring this matter to the authorities and to the remaining cult population. Really, it should have been done a long time ago but at this point they must. If they don't, their unspoken reply is that Rawat's goals are more important than public safety. Who knew what and when-'to the best of their recollection'-has its own value but right now not later is the time to surrender Jagdeo for questioning. Anything less, at this point, makes Rawat and EV part of the danger not the solution.

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Date: Sat, Apr 14, 2001 at 12:17:07 (GMT) From: same poster Email: None To: Rawat and EV Subject: best way to protect all from Jagdeo/Amaroo Message:

Besides turning Jagdeo over to the authorities for questioning, Rawat MUST speak to this issue himself at the Amaroo cult event. His silence on the matter is a statement in itself, i.e. I am a sociopath.

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Date: Sun, Apr 15, 2001 at 01:47:32 (GMT) From: Abi Email: None To: same poster Subject: best way to protect all from Jagdeo/Amaroo Message:

I trust that Maharaji and Elan Vital (whoever he is) will do the right thing. I am trusting that they will.

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Date: Sat, Apr 14, 2001 at 22:47:51 (GMT) From: Roger eDrek Email: drek@oz.net To: same poster Subject: Maybe they should cancel Amaroo Message:

This year's Amaroo event is going to be so, so beautiful. Welcome to the World of Knowledge premies. Welcome to the World of Expensive Wrist Watch Collections paid for by the suffering of innocents at the hands of pedophiles that are sheltered by our wonderful Lord of the Universe Perfect Master Master Humanitarian leader Teacher swindler.

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Date: Sat, Apr 14, 2001 at 07:35:43 (GMT) From: Jean-Michel Email: None To: Everyone Subject: Pat Halley's videoclip back online Message:

An excerpt of the Lord of the Universe Video

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Date: Sun, Apr 15, 2001 at 04:13:39 (GMT) From: janet Email: None To: Jean-Michel Subject: i cant view it. can it be reformatted in: Message:

windows media player, mpeg, realaudio, or a wav. form?

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Date: Sat, Apr 14, 2001 at 18:34:31 (GMT) From: Selene Email: None To: Jean-Michel Subject: anyone know? Message:

Did Patrick ever ask for or receive any kind of restitution? (if the answer is in the video I'll have to wait to use IE to see it)

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Date: Sat, Apr 14, 2001 at 15:11:46 (GMT) From: cq Email: None To: Jean-Michel Subject: J-M, please read: Message:

Have you come across the following site called 'The Main Line of Masters of Sant Mat in the Kali Yuga?' I thought it might interest you: http://www.members.iex.net/~naam/lineage.html

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Date: Sat, Apr 14, 2001 at 13:47:45 (GMT) From: Steve Quint Email: the_avenger55@hotmail.com To: Jean-Michel Subject: We Have A Sir Dave, What About A St. Patrick (nt) Message:

nt

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Date: Sat, Apr 14, 2001 at 12:17:44 (GMT) From: kev Email: None To: Jean-Michel Subject: Best m video I've ever seen Message:

Thanks Jean-Michel This really shows m in his true light i.e a complete ASSHOLE Best Whishes Kev

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Date: Sat, Apr 14, 2001 at 08:12:08 (GMT) From: Jean-Michel Email: None To: Jean-Michel Subject: Halley's videoclip might not work with Netscape! Message:

needs some plugin, I don't know which one ...

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Date: Mon, Apr 16, 2001 at 15:16:53 (GMT) From: JSK Email: None To: Jean-Michel Subject: Halley's videoclip might not work with Netscape! Message:

does not work, computer can't determine plugin necessary

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Date: Sat, Apr 14, 2001 at 11:10:34 (GMT) From: salam Email: None To: Jean-Michel Subject: Halley's videoclip might not work with Netscape! Message:

is this a bazza job again. Active X sucks.

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Date: Sat, Apr 14, 2001 at 22:44:57 (GMT) From: Bazza Email: None To: salam Subject: Halley's videoclip does work with Netscape! Message:

Activex removed just to keep salam happy. Now it just has the Netscape (embed) tags - before it had both and should have worked fine. If you're prompted for a plug-in, time to update your browser or go get a free Real Player Real.com So what good stuff you got on your website then?

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Date: Sat, Apr 14, 2001 at 23:57:44 (GMT) From: salam Email: None To: Bazza Subject: I found out that being an asshole doesn't take Message:

me very far. What about you? Also I don't intend to dedicate what's left of my life hating haramaharajgugu or tripping over the dead root of k.

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Date: Sun, Apr 15, 2001 at 04:06:30 (GMT) From: Bazza Email: None To: salam Subject: I agree Message:

Yeah your right, being an asshole is getting you absolutely nowhere so what - you gonna change? And who asked you about the rest of your life? Who cares? I sure don't.

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Date: Sun, Apr 15, 2001 at 09:38:34 (GMT) From: salam Email: None To: Bazza Subject: I care Message:

about my life. Thanks for the offer anyway boofhead.

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Date: Sun, Apr 15, 2001 at 18:47:47 (GMT) From: Selene Email: None To: salam Subject: I care Message:

Hi Salam, It's a big step (for me anyway) to care about 'this' life; Glad you had a good weekend. From Someone who cares

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Date: Sun, Apr 15, 2001 at 23:51:21 (GMT) From: salam Email: None To: Selene Subject: thanks love Message:

I did need that.

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Date: Mon, Apr 16, 2001 at 00:22:02 (GMT) From: Selene Email: None To: salam Subject: you are very welcome nt Message:

nt

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Date: Sat, Apr 14, 2001 at 13:05:57 (GMT) From: Berni Email: bernibe@flashmail.com To: Jean-Michel Subject: Frightening stuff Message:

Thanks for putting that up Jean Michel, I had never seen it before. Quite upsetting really as it brings back memories of how I used to feel in those days. Pat Halley seems like a nice guy, although in those days I would have regarded him as an evil menace and seem to remember at the time feeling angy and amazed that anyone could have done anything against the lord himself. To my shame I even think I understand the anger of the dude who said if he'd been around when Pat threw the pie he would have killed him?/slit his throat? ( i can't make out exactly what he says). Mind you I don't think I ever went as far as wanting to be violent but you do get into such a state as a devotee, really caring about maharaji so much that you lose your reason. Q.'so you'd kill a man for throwing a pie?' A.' On the spot!' That's heavy stuff. There seems to be some missing at the beginning. Is there any history to the press conference and does anyone know who the DLM characters were? I am surprised that maharji would be trying to have any sort of dialogue that wasn't satsang/propaganda. Put a shiver into my Easter Hols that has. Berni

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Date: Sat, Apr 14, 2001 at 21:53:12 (GMT) From: Bazza Email: None To: Berni Subject: LOTU video Message:

There is a direct link on the video page to the LOTU video for sale at amazon.com

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Date: Sat, Apr 14, 2001 at 17:47:02 (GMT) From: Joe Email: None To: Berni Subject: Frightening stuff Message:

The Lord of the Universe video is available on Amazon, and sets up the whole sequence of events very well. I think you can get it for $29.95 and it is well worth it. Just do a search on Amazon for 'lord of the universe' and it comes right up. You get to see in the video the whole press conference, and from that see what an arrogant brat Maharaji actually is/was. Of course, at the time, I just thought he was patient and misunderstood because the press corps didn't have 'that experience.' That part about Pat Halley is just a small part of the video. Prominently featured are Mahatama Gurucharanand, Rennie Davis, Abbie Hoffman (as an opposing view), Mata Ji in all her corpulent arrogance. BTW, as Babs said, the security guy who said he would have slit Halley's throat was Michael (Fats) Goldstein. He seemed like a nice guy, really. Just goes to show you what a cult will do to people. The video has no narration. It all speaks for itself with stunning clarity.

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Date: Sat, Apr 14, 2001 at 15:23:43 (GMT) From: Babs Email: ralphie@ralphiescafe.com To: Berni Subject: Frightening stuff Message:

Mr. 'On the Spot' is Michael Goldstein. He was in the WPC ashram in Denver, and after making his horrendous declaration was invited to do security at the Residence.

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Date: Sun, Apr 15, 2001 at 04:24:37 (GMT) From: sean Email: None To: Babs Subject: Frightening stuff Message:

Michael was also a real jerk and constantly trying to impress everybody with how tough he was. He was full of shit, but we had plenty of others around who were actually quite willing and able to do something like that. I always thought it was ironic as hell that of all the people they could walk up to and ask something like that, it was him.

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Date: Sun, Apr 15, 2001 at 15:17:38 (GMT) From: Katie H Email: None To: sean Subject: Tough guys with big mouths Message:

Hi Sean - I knew several premies like Michael Goldstein who were always 'talking tough' (a street thing or something - I STILL know some people like that!). And, yes, it's ironic that they interviewed him. I don't think the people who would actually slit someone's throat would proclaim it on camera, but you can always get someone who wants the attention to say something like that. Like we say around here - it's so 'east coast' :). Love, Katie

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Date: Mon, Apr 16, 2001 at 01:06:40 (GMT) From: sean Email: None To: Katie H Subject: Tough guys with big mouths Message:

'So East Coast'. Eeoooh! You hippies, I just don't know! There was a decidedly rowdy bunch from the east coast. The NY boys doing security for a while were a scary crew. I stayed away from them.

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Date: Mon, Apr 16, 2001 at 03:01:20 (GMT) From: Katie H Email: None To: sean Subject: Tough guys with big mouths Message:

Hey Sean - It's not 'hippies' - it's the people who are from the area which I now live in (about 4 hours north of you). They think *I'm* 'east coasty' too - I was born in Washington DC, so maybe they are right :).

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Date: Sat, Apr 14, 2001 at 05:52:13 (GMT) From: Bazza Email: None To: Everyone Subject: Well the search for the Poet Laureat is under way: Message:

ELK Expressions is simply flooded with poems today. Here are the nominations for Poet Laureat: +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ Sea of love We are the tide it is turning the sea is love Stephen Webb Aberdeen, Scotland **************************************************** Life I want to embrace as much of life as I can... I want my cells to be satisfied from this waterfall I am only a vase, let life fulfill me Thank you Marie Emma Tarnawiecki Miami Beach, USA *************************************************** Infrared I saw the sun dancing sparkles on the water as you do inside my heart. The dancer awaits in anticipation of the next lesson in perfection which exudes in the rhythm of unison with breath. Every pore breathes in and out, the perfume of a spring night. The dancer remembers again the sweetness of the moment, melts and merges in the sweetest of all dances.. I see the sun dancing infrared as you do inside my heart. Magdeline Soderberg Eureka, Ca, USA [Magdeline receives a 'special mention' for including a photograph of an inflamed hemmorrhoid with her submission] ***************************************************** No thing What is this that makes me feel so right? Is it the heaven within? I don't know. It's been called that. Is it the real or true self? I don't know. It's been called that. Is it the universal soul? I don't know. It's been called that. Is it the supreme truth? I don't know. It's been called that. Is it the kingdom of god? I don't know. It's been called that. Is it pure consciousness? I don't know. It's been called that. Is it the infinite abode? I don't know. It's been called that. Is it the union of one? I don't know. It's been called that. All I know is that someone very special gave me a very special gift; and , when I listen to him and accept his gift it makes me feel perfect, like nothing else has. That's the only Knowledge I need. Jim Sakshaug Marblemount, USA +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ Thank you...we'll let you know.

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Date: Sat, Apr 14, 2001 at 10:39:12 (GMT) From: Bryn Email: None To: Bazza Subject: Well the search for the Poet Laureat is under way: Message:

I like this opener from one of Will the Bards sonnets... 'My love is like a fever longing still For that which further nurseth the disease' The closing couplet is even better: 'For I have sworn thee fair and thought thee bright Who art as black as hell as dark as night'

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Date: Sat, Apr 14, 2001 at 09:02:52 (GMT) From: PatC Email: None To: Bazza Subject: Enjoying Life without Knollidge Message:

Here's some real poetry. William Shakespeare. 1564-1616 LOVE TELL me where is Fancy bred, Or in the heart or in the head? How begot, how nourishèd? Reply, reply. It is engender'd in the eyes, With gazing fed; and Fancy dies In the cradle where it lies. Let us all ring Fancy's knell: I'll begin it, Ding, dong, bell. All. Ding, dong, bell. ************************************* Christopher Marlowe. 1564-93 The Passionate Shepherd to His Love COME live with me and be my Love, And we will all the pleasures prove That hills and valleys, dales and fields, Or woods or steepy mountain yields. And we will sit upon the rocks, And see the shepherds feed their flocks By shallow rivers, to whose falls Melodious birds sing madrigals. And I will make thee beds of roses And a thousand fragrant posies; A cap of flowers, and a kirtle Embroider'd all with leaves of myrtle. A gown made of the finest wool Which from our pretty lambs we pull; Fair-linèd slippers for the cold, With buckles of the purest gold. A belt of straw and ivy-buds With coral clasps and amber studs: And if these pleasures may thee move, Come live with me and be my Love. The shepherd swains shall dance and sing For thy delight each May morning: If these delights thy mind may move, Then live with me and be my Love. ******************************************* Her Reply (WRITTEN BY SIR WALTER RALEIGH - 1564-93) IF all the world and love were young, And truth in every shepherd's tongue, These pretty pleasures might me move To live with thee and be thy Love. But Time drives flocks from field to fold; When rivers rage and rocks grow cold; And Philomel becometh dumb; The rest complains of cares to come. The flowers do fade, and wanton fields To wayward Winter reckoning yields: A honey tongue, a heart of gall, Is fancy's spring, but sorrow's fall. Thy gowns, thy shoes, thy beds of roses, Thy cap, thy kirtle, and thy posies, Soon break, soon wither - soon forgotten, In folly ripe, in reason rotten. Thy belt of straw and ivy-buds, Thy coral clasps and amber studs, All these in me no means can move To come to thee and be thy Love. But could youth last, and love still breed, Had joys no date, nor age no need, Then these delights my mind might move To live with thee and be thy Love. Did Raleigh know that Marlowe was a pooftah and was writing his poem to his nephew? It was said that Marlowe was murdered in a pub because of a gambling debt whereas he was really killed in a gay bar by a male prostitute.

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Date: Sat, Apr 14, 2001 at 02:46:37 (GMT) From: anon Email: None To: Everyone Subject: fyi - as announced on 'firstclass' Message:

Thursday, April 12, 2001 4:49:21 PM US News & Information From: Steve Rush Subject: A request for stories about how K touched your life To: US News & Information Hi. A new website is in development, Knowledgeinfo.org, and we are soliciting individual stories for the PERSPECTIVES section. We are looking for people with Knowledge who want to tell brief personal stories of their experience in encountering and receiving Knowledge, any obstacles they overcame and how they enjoy Knowledge today. This is a chance to speak from your heart, and appeal to the heart. The selections are going on a web site intended for people interested in Knowledge, and could likely be their first contact with Maharaji and Knowledge, after perhaps receiving a business card with the web site address, or seeing a satellite broadcast. If you have a simple, relatable story written in your own words about how Knowledge has touched your life, we are interested. (In some cases, it may be possible to tape an interview with you.) If you don’t have a story, but you know someone who may have one, please forward this message to them. Deadline: May 5, 2001 Maximum length: 250 words, approx. 1 page typewritten Please submit to Jennifer Boire on First Class, or at jenco@dsuper.net Please note: Not all submissions will be used. If we are able to use your submission, a signed release form will be required. Your submission may be condensed and/or edited for publication.

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Date: Sat, Apr 14, 2001 at 15:56:12 (GMT) From: Babs Email: ralphie@ralphiesafe.com To: anon Subject: 250 words or less? Hard for me to be that concise. Message:

How about: I was just fine when I received Knowledge and then I was fucked up for the next thirty years.

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Date: Sat, Apr 14, 2001 at 09:18:28 (GMT) From: Marianne Email: None To: anon Subject: Journeys lite Message:

I guess they've seen how powerful the Journeys section of EPO is in helping people exit the cult, so they've decided to do one of their own. They ought to include a warning at the beginning of it: 'Knowledge' can be dangerous to your physical well being and mental health. Marianne

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Date: Sat, Apr 14, 2001 at 11:16:33 (GMT) From: salam Email: None To: Marianne Subject: Journeys lite Message:

Maybe if they are nice to Brian, he will let them copy some of the journies. Now what is wrong with that ha? Am an ex, but does that mean that I lost k when I found out that it sucks. Nooooo. So what's the problem. I demand to be heard. Now ye eer me you (ev) dorcks. I want to exercise my rights. Yah. you go and speak to janet and she will fix u up. Sheesh (that was a good rush) p.s. was it u that asked me for my phone, or was it an EV imposter.

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Date: Sat, Apr 14, 2001 at 03:17:26 (GMT) From: Richard Email: None To: anon Subject: We could all send in our stories Message:

We are looking for people with Knowledge who want to tell brief personal stories of their experience in encountering and receiving Knowledge... If you have a simple, relatable story written in your own words about how Knowledge has touched your life, we are interested. Doesn't say you have to be currently practicing K to send in a story. This could be fun. Especially personal 'touching' stories involving mahatmas.

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Date: Sat, Apr 14, 2001 at 03:14:45 (GMT) From: Jim Email: None To: anon Subject: Here's my entry Message:

Dear Jennifer, Hi, how ARE you? Can you remember any of the songs we used to sing together, Jenny, way back when? I'm sure you're every bit as beautiful as then. I called Sue [her sister] sometime last year. I didn't get a chance to ask about you before Sue told me to get a life and hung up but maybe next time. Jennifer, have you read any of the real dirt on Maharaji -- yes, dirt, good, honest, dirt -- people like Dettmers and Donner have spoken out about on the ex-premie forum? Did you know before that all the while you and I were good little ashram premies in Toronto and Ottawa, he was having guys like Dettmers procure girls for him, getting stoned and becoming a full-fledged alcoholic? What's the first thing that crosses your mind when you hear this? Hopefully something more than 'Why couldn't it have been me?' Jen, pretty as you were, Maharaji liked blondes. Sorry. What do you make of the fact that Maharaji killed a guy in that car accident in India, then fled the country leaving some poor sucker in the ashram to take the rap? Or the fact that, even while he was pushing his fundraising machine into drone patrol, he had John Miller secretly buy him a multi-million dollar yacht? And on and on ... How about the EV FAQs, Jennifer? You know, the ones where EV claims that Maharaji never asked to be worshipped? And then what about this Jagdeo stuff, huh? Maharaji knew for years that Jagdeo was a pedophile. Didn't give a fuck apparently. You got kids now, Jen? Girls? How old are they? I guess you love them very much, huh? Well, I've got good news for you! Mahatma Ji's coming to town! The cult is crumbling, Jennifer, and the reason is that the truth is finally coming out. So, classic question: are you a seeker of truth? Still? Jim Heller

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Date: Sat, Apr 14, 2001 at 17:50:24 (GMT) From: Joe Email: None To: Jim Subject: God Jim, brutal... Message:

But absolutely right on.

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Date: Sat, Apr 14, 2001 at 04:15:11 (GMT) From: bill Email: None To: Jim Subject: Yow James, potent as usual....nt Message:

sdfga

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Date: Sat, Apr 14, 2001 at 02:20:52 (GMT) From: Abi Email: None To: Everyone Subject: FOMF: Some Questions Message:

Dear FOMF, I just glanced below at some of the things you were saying and I have to say that there was something which really stoood out for me. It was when you said that you'd known about Jagdeo for 15+ years but that it had never really sunk in. I am not in any way accusing you of being a bad person and I respect that you have written about this on this forum. I hope you understand that my questions to you are not antagonistic and not designed to paint you in a bad light. Could you please tell me how it was that you first heard about Jagdeo? Who told you? Who else knows? I hope that you can try and answer my questions. And again I am not trying to discredit you in any way. Respectfully Abi

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Date: Mon, Apr 16, 2001 at 22:52:41 (GMT) From: michael donner Email: None To: fomf Subject: FOMF: Some Questions Message:

hi fomf...some questions also re valario...what is his role with e.v. these days? is he still cooking at the residence? or both? what m passed the assignment to valario to bring jagdeo to justice via e.v.. does valario have authority within e.v.? or wil his authority come from m giving him this assignment (agya)? and finally, please address the issue of separation of m and e.v. when m anc give an assingment to someone to affect e.v.? thanks

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