Forum V: Archive
Compiled: Fri, Apr 20, 2001 at 21:26:27 (GMT)
From: Apr 08, 2001 To: Apr 17, 2001 Page: 4 Of: 5


Jean-Michel -:- New document on EPO ... -:- Wed, Apr 11, 2001 at 14:48:55 (GMT)
__ Pat Conlon -:- ''Even the tears of the rich are bitter.'' -:- Thurs, Apr 12, 2001 at 05:31:24 (GMT)
__ jondon -:- Frankincense, Gold and Myrrh -:- Thurs, Apr 12, 2001 at 04:12:42 (GMT)
__ AJW -:- Bravo Jean-Michel. -:- Wed, Apr 11, 2001 at 23:25:39 (GMT)
__ __ Cynthia -:- AJW, Camel Cigarette or the Mammal?.....n/t -:- Fri, Apr 13, 2001 at 02:22:03 (GMT)
__ Tami Rainbow -:- by his grace, so bootiful -:- Wed, Apr 11, 2001 at 22:08:03 (GMT)
__ Joe -:- Excellent -:- Wed, Apr 11, 2001 at 17:45:11 (GMT)
__ __ Nigel -:- I doubt whether he has ever voted -:- Fri, Apr 13, 2001 at 15:00:15 (GMT)
__ __ Kelly -:- Kelly don't fancy Telly neither! can't win, nt -:- Wed, Apr 11, 2001 at 22:34:11 (GMT)
__ __ __ suchabanana -:- remember, we have inner tele! (nt -:- Thurs, Apr 12, 2001 at 19:06:20 (GMT)
__ __ Cynthia -:- Brazen!... -:- Wed, Apr 11, 2001 at 18:20:41 (GMT)
__ __ __ Joe -:- Brazen!... -:- Wed, Apr 11, 2001 at 18:46:26 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Cynthia -:- Yeah, attracting the upper class! -:- Wed, Apr 11, 2001 at 22:16:29 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Joe -:- Going to Australia -- it's a bargain -:- Sat, Apr 14, 2001 at 18:19:57 (GMT)

girlzone -:- Who is Valerio G? -:- Wed, Apr 11, 2001 at 08:56:19 (GMT)
__ Ian Dury -:- Who is Valerio P? -:- Wed, Apr 11, 2001 at 11:28:31 (GMT)
__ __ jondon -:- top-dog at HR -:- Wed, Apr 11, 2001 at 12:16:23 (GMT)
__ __ __ Ian Dury -:- top-dog at HR -:- Thurs, Apr 12, 2001 at 00:41:44 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ jondon -:- Thanks Ian... -:- Thurs, Apr 12, 2001 at 04:30:09 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Joe -:- Who is Terry's husband who does res security? (nt) -:- Thurs, Apr 12, 2001 at 17:23:43 (GMT)
__ __ girlzone -:- Who is Valerio P? -:- Wed, Apr 11, 2001 at 11:56:18 (GMT)
__ __ __ Kelly -:- What sort of culture produces such an attitude -:- Wed, Apr 11, 2001 at 17:15:19 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Kev -:- What sort of culture produces such an attitude -:- Wed, Apr 11, 2001 at 20:09:52 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Disculta Darling -:- What a great idea for exiting premies! -:- Thurs, Apr 12, 2001 at 01:30:19 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ la-ex -:- Abused kids, anti-cult groups for starters nt -:- Thurs, Apr 12, 2001 at 02:32:22 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ suchabanana -:- yes,we are attaining our humanity -swirled peas(nt -:- Wed, Apr 11, 2001 at 18:20:50 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ toejamanand -:- can't believe I spelled peace rong, sorry swami nt -:- Wed, Apr 11, 2001 at 20:32:09 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ kev -:- I can't spell either (since not sense) Doh!! -nt -:- Wed, Apr 11, 2001 at 22:04:50 (GMT)
__ __ __ gerry -:- What sort of culture produces such an attitude? -:- Wed, Apr 11, 2001 at 15:00:47 (GMT)

Mad Scientist Helen -:- Reclaiming the intellect -:- Tues, Apr 10, 2001 at 23:17:12 (GMT)
__ Kelly -:- Bugger Bhakti! -:- Wed, Apr 11, 2001 at 22:01:07 (GMT)
__ Selene -:- Reclaiming the intellect but how? please tell me -:- Wed, Apr 11, 2001 at 02:21:44 (GMT)
__ __ Jim -:- Lots and lots of crossword puzzles (nt) -:- Thurs, Apr 12, 2001 at 05:35:28 (GMT)
__ __ __ PatC -:- Amen, Crosswords: calisthenics for the mind. NT -:- Thurs, Apr 12, 2001 at 23:26:56 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Jim -:- Uh, I was kidding. I'm confused - were you? (nt) -:- Fri, Apr 13, 2001 at 00:10:32 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ PatC -:- I thought you might be kidding but the NY Times -:- Fri, Apr 13, 2001 at 01:10:22 (GMT)
__ __ Bryn -:- Reclaiming the intellect but how? please tell me -:- Wed, Apr 11, 2001 at 11:59:19 (GMT)
__ __ __ Helen -:- memory -:- Wed, Apr 11, 2001 at 21:58:55 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Bryn -:- memory -:- Thurs, Apr 12, 2001 at 21:01:44 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Selene -:- memory -:- Wed, Apr 11, 2001 at 23:54:07 (GMT)
__ __ __ Selene -:- memory -:- Wed, Apr 11, 2001 at 14:31:25 (GMT)
__ __ Joy -:- Read, Selene, Read -:- Wed, Apr 11, 2001 at 02:27:11 (GMT)
__ __ __ Selene -:- Read, Selene, Read -:- Wed, Apr 11, 2001 at 02:33:22 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ PatC -:- Joy took the words out of my mouth -:- Wed, Apr 11, 2001 at 02:59:46 (GMT)
__ Joy -:- Great Post, Helen -:- Wed, Apr 11, 2001 at 02:18:44 (GMT)
__ __ Katie H -:- I couldn't stop reading -:- Thurs, Apr 12, 2001 at 12:20:21 (GMT)
__ __ Helen -:- reading is bliss -:- Wed, Apr 11, 2001 at 21:51:16 (GMT)
__ __ Disculta Darling -:- Voracious reading - curing analysis paralysis -:- Wed, Apr 11, 2001 at 08:44:43 (GMT)
__ __ Richard -:- The book M didn't read was Mein Kampf -:- Wed, Apr 11, 2001 at 04:55:13 (GMT)
__ __ __ Joe -:- Close but no cigar, Richard -:- Wed, Apr 11, 2001 at 21:11:02 (GMT)
__ __ __ Jethro -:- At least some of his devotees were into -:- Wed, Apr 11, 2001 at 08:00:25 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Helen -:- At least some of his devotees were into -:- Wed, Apr 11, 2001 at 21:32:46 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Dave Punshon -:- At least some of his devotees were into -:- Wed, Apr 11, 2001 at 10:33:07 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Jethro -:- Hi Dave -:- Wed, Apr 11, 2001 at 11:44:42 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ janet -:- YOU'RE A NEW NAME--TELL US ABOUT YOURSELF -:- Wed, Apr 11, 2001 at 11:17:30 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Dave Punshon -:- YOU'RE A NEW NAME--TELL US ABOUT YOURSELF -:- Wed, Apr 11, 2001 at 20:02:13 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ AJW -:- Hoi Dave -:- Wed, Apr 11, 2001 at 22:30:34 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Dave Punshon -:- Hoi Dave -:- Thurs, Apr 12, 2001 at 12:09:31 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Bazza -:- Jeezus Janet! -:- Wed, Apr 11, 2001 at 17:55:31 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Jethro -:- he's 'older' than you. Used to be called ex-mug NT -:- Wed, Apr 11, 2001 at 11:49:12 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Jethro -:- Oh I forgot to mention that most of -:- Wed, Apr 11, 2001 at 08:10:54 (GMT)
__ Gregg -:- Reclaiming the intellect -:- Wed, Apr 11, 2001 at 02:00:19 (GMT)
__ Pat Conlon -:- A shot in the arm, Helen. Thanks -:- Wed, Apr 11, 2001 at 00:13:29 (GMT)
__ __ Helen -:- Pat/Selene -:- Wed, Apr 11, 2001 at 03:22:51 (GMT)
__ __ __ Selene -:- Helen/Pat -:- Wed, Apr 11, 2001 at 03:41:03 (GMT)
__ jumbler -:- Reclaiming the intellect -:- Wed, Apr 11, 2001 at 00:08:13 (GMT)
__ __ Helen -:- rational mind as way to spiritual growth -:- Sat, Apr 14, 2001 at 05:21:52 (GMT)
__ __ PatC -:- ''supergurubabble'' - that's cute, jumbler -:- Wed, Apr 11, 2001 at 00:26:12 (GMT)
__ __ __ jumbler -:- ''supergurubabble'' - that's cute, jumbler -:- Wed, Apr 11, 2001 at 22:15:31 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ PatC -:- Hi, jumbler, sorry about that -:- Wed, Apr 11, 2001 at 23:58:23 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ jumbler -:- just stage fright -:- Thurs, Apr 12, 2001 at 23:17:13 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Helen -:- stage fright -:- Sat, Apr 14, 2001 at 05:15:06 (GMT)
__ __ __ Cynthia -:- Me too, Pat -:- Wed, Apr 11, 2001 at 01:11:50 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ PatC -:- Cynthia, many words were cheapened by the urug -:- Wed, Apr 11, 2001 at 02:54:40 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Cynthia -:- Hi Pat, those damn words!! -:- Wed, Apr 11, 2001 at 15:09:08 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ PatC -:- Hi Cynthia, those damn words!! -:- Wed, Apr 11, 2001 at 18:07:19 (GMT)
__ __ __ such -:- James rightly terms it: 'learned helplessness' (nt -:- Wed, Apr 11, 2001 at 00:42:33 (GMT)
__ suchabanana -:- Hear,hear!Reclaiming Intelligence vs. intellectual -:- Tues, Apr 10, 2001 at 23:57:16 (GMT)
__ __ Zelda -:- reclaiming the ability to reclaim -:- Wed, Apr 11, 2001 at 06:24:33 (GMT)
__ __ __ Berni -:- reclaiming the ability to reclaim -:- Thurs, Apr 12, 2001 at 18:12:20 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Zelda -:- reclaiming the ability to reclaim -:- Fri, Apr 13, 2001 at 07:48:55 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Berni -:- The Book Club -:- Fri, Apr 13, 2001 at 11:51:17 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ such -:- Heart vs. Head:Tristam Shandy,TJefferson's fave(nt -:- Thurs, Apr 12, 2001 at 22:22:37 (GMT)
__ __ __ Helen -:- reclaiming the ability to reclaim -:- Wed, Apr 11, 2001 at 21:39:51 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Zelda -:- reclaiming the ability to reclaim -:- Thurs, Apr 12, 2001 at 13:16:44 (GMT)
__ __ __ such -:- 'A mind is a terrible thing to lose...' damn quail -:- Wed, Apr 11, 2001 at 17:48:40 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Helen -:- Bush is worse with the malapropisms -:- Wed, Apr 11, 2001 at 21:42:25 (GMT)

Jule -:- Hi everyone -:- Tues, Apr 10, 2001 at 22:50:15 (GMT)
__ kev -:- Welcome to the rest of your life -:- Wed, Apr 11, 2001 at 21:59:22 (GMT)
__ Kelly -:- Hi everyone -:- Wed, Apr 11, 2001 at 20:10:30 (GMT)
__ __ Ulf -:- How can i ever trust my judgement again -:- Wed, Apr 11, 2001 at 21:35:57 (GMT)
__ __ __ Jim -:- That's why I'm here, Ulf. Don't worry, send money -:- Fri, Apr 13, 2001 at 02:58:11 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Ulf -:- Can i also sing Arti,? nt. -:- Fri, Apr 13, 2001 at 10:51:24 (GMT)
__ __ __ Kelly -:- How can i ever trust my judgement again? -:- Wed, Apr 11, 2001 at 22:08:37 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Ulf -:- How can i ever trust my judgement again? -:- Wed, Apr 11, 2001 at 23:23:09 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Berni -:- How can i ever trust my judgement again? -:- Thurs, Apr 12, 2001 at 18:23:24 (GMT)
__ bill -:- The Decettes were great Jule.........nt -:- Wed, Apr 11, 2001 at 16:46:05 (GMT)
__ janet -:- want a membership card? just tell this guy: -:- Wed, Apr 11, 2001 at 10:35:23 (GMT)
__ __ salam -:- Great mug shot janet. -:- Wed, Apr 11, 2001 at 14:50:00 (GMT)
__ __ __ salam -:- I thought you were a skinny old fart -:- Wed, Apr 11, 2001 at 14:51:30 (GMT)
__ Richard -:- Welcome Jule -:- Wed, Apr 11, 2001 at 05:15:00 (GMT)
__ Babs -:- Hi everyone -:- Wed, Apr 11, 2001 at 04:55:47 (GMT)
__ __ janet schwartz -:- I went to your wedding in denver-the 1st one! -:- Wed, Apr 11, 2001 at 06:57:33 (GMT)
__ Tony(Aussi Ji) -:- Your initials would'nt happen to be -:- Wed, Apr 11, 2001 at 03:57:17 (GMT)
__ __ Tony(Aussi Ji) -:- PS if they are. -:- Wed, Apr 11, 2001 at 04:07:16 (GMT)
__ __ __ Tony(Aussi Ji) -:- Don't bother reading above two posts -:- Wed, Apr 11, 2001 at 07:17:25 (GMT)
__ Deputy Dog -:- Hi everyone -:- Wed, Apr 11, 2001 at 02:45:32 (GMT)
__ Deputy Dog -:- Hi everyone -:- Wed, Apr 11, 2001 at 02:32:10 (GMT)
__ __ Deputy Dog -:- Sorry first post didn't show up so I re-posted (nt -:- Wed, Apr 11, 2001 at 02:52:42 (GMT)
__ __ Selene -:- informed faith? -:- Wed, Apr 11, 2001 at 02:42:17 (GMT)
__ __ __ Deputy Dog -:- informed faith? -:- Wed, Apr 11, 2001 at 02:59:06 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Nigel -:- Did you see my post below...? -:- Fri, Apr 13, 2001 at 18:02:31 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Jim -:- By the way, Dog, you didn't answer Selene's q -:- Wed, Apr 11, 2001 at 03:57:40 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Deputy Dog -:- I answered the question and more -:- Thurs, Apr 12, 2001 at 01:53:27 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Jim -:- Thank God for cross-examination -:- Thurs, Apr 12, 2001 at 04:47:36 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Deputy Dog -:- Thank God for God!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! -:- Fri, Apr 13, 2001 at 03:51:31 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Jim -:- COULD WE HAVE A REFEREE HERE PLEASE? -:- Fri, Apr 13, 2001 at 04:07:03 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ JHB -:- A Referee Writes:- -:- Fri, Apr 13, 2001 at 09:39:46 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ PatC -:- Being right's one thing. Rubbing someone's nose in -:- Fri, Apr 13, 2001 at 08:12:59 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Jim -:- That's why they call him Deputy DOG (nt) -:- Fri, Apr 13, 2001 at 22:25:16 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Lurker #27 -:- Jim, I don't BELIEEEEEVE it!!!!!!!! -:- Thurs, Apr 12, 2001 at 14:33:10 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Jim -:- Are you Joey? -:- Thurs, Apr 12, 2001 at 15:43:54 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Gerry -:- You'll like this Jim -:- Thurs, Apr 12, 2001 at 16:03:20 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Nigel -:- Great link, Gerry. I've bookmarked it (nt) -:- Fri, Apr 13, 2001 at 17:49:26 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Selene -:- and Dep my handy dandy online dic says -:- Wed, Apr 11, 2001 at 04:02:39 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Selene -:- but then again if you picked number 4 -:- Wed, Apr 11, 2001 at 04:26:52 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Deputy Dog -:- Selene - but then again if I picked number 4 -:- Thurs, Apr 12, 2001 at 02:30:35 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Selene -:- Why do I need M for any of that? nt -:- Thurs, Apr 12, 2001 at 22:57:40 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Deputy dog -:- Why do I need M for any of that? You don't! -:- Fri, Apr 13, 2001 at 03:35:14 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Jim -:- Left brain, right brain? You can't be serious -:- Wed, Apr 11, 2001 at 03:19:59 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Deputy Dog -:- Left brain, right brain? I am serious! -:- Wed, Apr 11, 2001 at 04:29:32 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Nigel -:- A little knowledge is a dangerous thing..? -:- Wed, Apr 11, 2001 at 11:18:57 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Jim -:- Wrong again, Dog -:- Wed, Apr 11, 2001 at 04:45:51 (GMT)
__ Selene -:- did we marry the same guy? -:- Wed, Apr 11, 2001 at 01:36:48 (GMT)
__ Roger eDrek -:- Hi everyone -:- Wed, Apr 11, 2001 at 00:13:43 (GMT)
__ __ Pat Conlon -:- I went back for one year, 2000, and that was it -:- Wed, Apr 11, 2001 at 00:34:14 (GMT)
__ suchabanana -:- Hi Jule! We were all such bananas!Peace+lentils(nt -:- Tues, Apr 10, 2001 at 23:39:35 (GMT)
__ __ PatC -:- Swami Ji, people who are born in Natal/kwaZulu -:- Tues, Apr 10, 2001 at 23:47:45 (GMT)
__ __ __ janet -:- i think you have appeal/a peel,,,nt -:- Wed, Apr 11, 2001 at 06:22:19 (GMT)
__ __ __ such -:- Tangerine Dream? Strawberry Fields Alarm Clock!(nt -:- Wed, Apr 11, 2001 at 00:01:25 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Joe -:- Surrealistic Pillow Fight in Carolina on my mind?n -:- Wed, Apr 11, 2001 at 01:13:54 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ PatC -:- Hey MrTangerine Man, call me mellow-yellow(nt -:- Wed, Apr 11, 2001 at 00:19:18 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ DeProGram Anand Ji -:- Quite Rightly...What a long strange trip it's been -:- Wed, Apr 11, 2001 at 05:06:28 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ such -:- I'm just Wild about Saffron! incense/peppermint... -:- Wed, Apr 11, 2001 at 00:36:59 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ PatC -:- I was hoping you'd say that -:- Wed, Apr 11, 2001 at 00:47:13 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ such -:- but is she fed vegetarian ahimsa? curious...(nt -:- Wed, Apr 11, 2001 at 01:38:50 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ PatC -:- Omnivore - too old to retrain when i got her(nt) -:- Wed, Apr 11, 2001 at 03:06:13 (GMT)
__ Pat Conlon -:- Hi Jule, good to have you here NT -:- Tues, Apr 10, 2001 at 23:28:00 (GMT)
__ Disculta Darling -:- Welcome, and some questions -:- Tues, Apr 10, 2001 at 23:25:59 (GMT)
__ __ Joe -:- I have the same question -:- Tues, Apr 10, 2001 at 23:58:32 (GMT)
__ __ __ G -:- the transition from the ultimate to the 'nice' -:- Wed, Apr 11, 2001 at 00:33:18 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Jerry -:- the transition from the ultimate to the 'nice' -:- Thurs, Apr 12, 2001 at 01:49:18 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ G -:- Perhaps... -:- Thurs, Apr 12, 2001 at 18:51:02 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Jim -:- That's quite funny, G (and a half-baked theory!) -:- Wed, Apr 11, 2001 at 01:23:34 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Joe -:- Being thankful for not having to try so hard -:- Wed, Apr 11, 2001 at 17:40:47 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Disculta Darling -:- Being thankful for not having to try so hard -:- Wed, Apr 11, 2001 at 19:46:32 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Joe -:- Being thankful for not having to try so hard -:- Wed, Apr 11, 2001 at 20:08:59 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ G -:- the crowded hut analogy -:- Wed, Apr 11, 2001 at 20:28:13 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Joe -:- the crowded hut analogy -:- Wed, Apr 11, 2001 at 20:50:14 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ G -:- a half-baked theory -:- Wed, Apr 11, 2001 at 03:03:29 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Joe -:- The crux of the matter -:- Wed, Apr 11, 2001 at 01:05:43 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ G -:- the Don Quixote diatribe -:- Wed, Apr 11, 2001 at 02:47:28 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Roy -:- The crux of the matter -:- Wed, Apr 11, 2001 at 01:46:58 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ G -:- Quixote -:- Wed, Apr 11, 2001 at 02:52:21 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Disculta Darling -:- This is so great... -:- Wed, Apr 11, 2001 at 08:40:07 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Roy -:- thanks G - I've often wondered about this... nt -:- Wed, Apr 11, 2001 at 04:27:15 (GMT)
__ Helen -:- Hi everyone -:- Tues, Apr 10, 2001 at 23:23:56 (GMT)
__ Jim -:- Oh no! Not another possible ex suicide! -:- Tues, Apr 10, 2001 at 23:09:17 (GMT)
__ JHB -:- Welcome Jule, to the real world -:- Tues, Apr 10, 2001 at 23:02:13 (GMT)

Peter -:- Protest and Protect? -:- Tues, Apr 10, 2001 at 18:38:11 (GMT)
__ Selene -:- we are changing the cult by changing -:- Wed, Apr 11, 2001 at 01:43:50 (GMT)
__ Cynthia -:- Picking for Information Peter???? n/t -:- Wed, Apr 11, 2001 at 00:47:57 (GMT)
__ Jim -:- Hi Peter -:- Wed, Apr 11, 2001 at 00:07:06 (GMT)
__ Pat Conlon -:- Peter, I'm sorry that you've encountered rudeness -:- Tues, Apr 10, 2001 at 22:23:44 (GMT)
__ Nigel -:- Protest and Protect? -:- Tues, Apr 10, 2001 at 20:03:40 (GMT)
__ __ Peter -:- Protest and Protect? -:- Tues, Apr 10, 2001 at 20:35:54 (GMT)
__ __ __ Nigel -:- Miserable, moi?! -:- Tues, Apr 10, 2001 at 21:12:18 (GMT)
__ __ __ gerry -:- You wuss -:- Tues, Apr 10, 2001 at 21:07:06 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Selene -:- it is so old isn't it? -:- Wed, Apr 11, 2001 at 02:31:41 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ gerry -:- My mamma sez so... -:- Wed, Apr 11, 2001 at 02:52:21 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Selene -:- I'll try other browsers tomorrow ot -:- Wed, Apr 11, 2001 at 03:07:56 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ gerry -:- try it again -:- Wed, Apr 11, 2001 at 03:17:00 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Selene -:- got it ok you are cute ot -:- Wed, Apr 11, 2001 at 03:25:32 (GMT)
__ cq -:- Despised? Your objection never mentioned that. -:- Tues, Apr 10, 2001 at 19:32:29 (GMT)
__ __ Peter -:- sorry cq but what's your point? -:- Tues, Apr 10, 2001 at 20:16:02 (GMT)
__ __ __ cq -:- you really are new here? -:- Tues, Apr 10, 2001 at 20:38:34 (GMT)
__ __ __ gerry -:- You're full of shit, Peter. -:- Tues, Apr 10, 2001 at 20:34:09 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Peter -:- How ugly and sad you have become! -:- Tues, Apr 10, 2001 at 20:50:30 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ gerry -:- No I was born that way you dildo. -:- Tues, Apr 10, 2001 at 21:34:12 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Way -:- Peter - don't let 'em get to you -:- Tues, Apr 10, 2001 at 21:03:54 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Lesley -:- Peter - who are you -:- Tues, Apr 10, 2001 at 21:28:07 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Peter -:- Peter - who am I? -:- Tues, Apr 10, 2001 at 22:30:17 (GMT)
__ Way -:- Protest and Protect? -:- Tues, Apr 10, 2001 at 19:25:27 (GMT)
__ __ A.S.F. -:- The A.S.F.'s current strategies -:- Tues, Apr 10, 2001 at 20:02:36 (GMT)
__ __ __ Elan Vital -:- The A.S.F.'s current strategies -:- Tues, Apr 10, 2001 at 20:39:20 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Steve Quint -:- FA - I Think This Is Not The Real Elan Vital -:- Wed, Apr 11, 2001 at 09:32:45 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Elan Vital -:- Thank you Steve -:- Wed, Apr 11, 2001 at 20:43:35 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Lesley -:- Plan B -:- Tues, Apr 10, 2001 at 21:04:00 (GMT)


Date: Wed, Apr 11, 2001 at 14:48:55 (GMT)
From: Jean-Michel
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: New document on EPO ...
Message:
The Rich are the real sufferers

Poor Little Rich Boy.

When called to account for the Sybaritic accouterments of the 16-year-old 'Perfect Master' Maharaji - the Maseratis, cabin cruisers, jet-flying lessons and $ 400,000 home - a spokesman offered the following: 'The Perfect Master life-style is in keeping with this era of science and technology. The world is rich so he must live rich. The rich are the real sufferers and the poors' sufferings are often exaggerated. The guru receiving presents from his devotees is no more different than Christ, the poor son of a carpenter, receiving the three wise men's offerings of frankincense, gold and myrrh'.

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Date: Thurs, Apr 12, 2001 at 05:31:24 (GMT)
From: Pat Conlon
Email: None
To: Jean-Michel
Subject: ''Even the tears of the rich are bitter.''
Message:
Said by Rev Rawat in the Cote Ivoire two years ago. Thanks J-M.
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Date: Thurs, Apr 12, 2001 at 04:12:42 (GMT)
From: jondon
Email: None
To: all
Subject: Frankincense, Gold and Myrrh
Message:
Interesting article about the comparison of J and M. I decided to research the value of Frankincense, gold and myrrh; and to evaluate it based on today's present rate of exchange and inflation. Back then in, oh say somewhere between 0-1 AD, when the three wiseguys brought the stuff to the baby J. An urn of Frankincense could have purchased a luxury 24-oar, two masted, wooden ship. Comparable today to about a 6 million dollar, 106 foot, diesel powered, aluminum yacht.

A container of Myrrh would have easily fetched a fine two-story cottage in Bethlehem with enough left over for a barn. On today's market it would be comparable to a 400,000 old, dilapidated house in the hills of Santa Monica with a bit left over to refurbish it (with the same slave labor of yesteryear of course).

The ingot of gold was worth enough back then enough to purchase a 26 million dollar Gulfstream V, which of course, was yet to be invented, but it shows that the comparison of M and J, is
equal in both a Qualitative sense and
in a Quantitative sense.

Man, I have seen the light...I think I will jump the fence and....no wait...I just got something in my eye and have been rubbing it......

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Date: Wed, Apr 11, 2001 at 23:25:39 (GMT)
From: AJW
Email: None
To: Jean-Michel
Subject: Bravo Jean-Michel.
Message:
Maybe he should be pushed through the eye of a needle on the back of a camel.

Anth the gate in the old city wall.

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Date: Fri, Apr 13, 2001 at 02:22:03 (GMT)
From: Cynthia
Email: None
To: AJW
Subject: AJW, Camel Cigarette or the Mammal?.....n/t
Message:
nt
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Date: Wed, Apr 11, 2001 at 22:08:03 (GMT)
From: Tami Rainbow
Email: None
To: frenchy boy
Subject: by his grace, so bootiful
Message:
At last you have posted something trulee worthwile for those of us that luv Maharaji. That is sooo bootyful wut he said about being like jezuz crist and taking riches only to add suffering to himself. That is soo bootyful it makes me cry to think of it. That pikture of maharaji on the cover of Peepul magazine is hot too, like Joe said!
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Date: Wed, Apr 11, 2001 at 17:45:11 (GMT)
From: Joe
Email: None
To: Jean-Michel
Subject: Excellent
Message:
Telly Savalas looks hot. And to think People only cost 35 cents back then.

It seems Elan Vital has continued the myth that rich people suffer so much. George W. Bush has the same philosophy with his tax cuts. It's the rich who need financial help, not the poor.

I'm sure Maharaji is a Republican.

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Date: Fri, Apr 13, 2001 at 15:00:15 (GMT)
From: Nigel
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: I doubt whether he has ever voted
Message:
- it would involve a personal endorsement of a mere human being (other than himself), which would certainly be a first.

But, yes, I can't imagine M being other than a conservative, whether he realises it or not.

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Date: Wed, Apr 11, 2001 at 22:34:11 (GMT)
From: Kelly
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: Kelly don't fancy Telly neither! can't win, nt
Message:
yuk
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Date: Thurs, Apr 12, 2001 at 19:06:20 (GMT)
From: suchabanana
Email: None
To: Kelly
Subject: remember, we have inner tele! (nt
Message:
nt
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Date: Wed, Apr 11, 2001 at 18:20:41 (GMT)
From: Cynthia
Email: None
To: Jean-Michel
Subject: Brazen!...
Message:
...and Telly was hot! I remember women and men of all ages just swooning over this guy--Kojak! Who always wore his suits too tight...''Who loves ya baby?''

**********

So, at age 16, goomraji had a wife, a kid, a $400,000 mansion, money up the geegee, servants at his feet, fast cars, and a cult.

This phrase gets me most of all:

The world is rich so he must live rich. The rich are the real sufferers and the poors' sufferings are often exaggerated.

I guess this ties in with that phrase, if you have $1 million you have to get another million to protect it, and on and on.

The world is so rich? Really? In India, in Africa? Even the US? Is there a U.S? Hmmm. It's only rich in ''Maharaji's PlayWorld'' where only he's alowed to truly enjoy the harvest of his premies' paychecks. It galls me that poor people are so discriminated against. M demeans the people who lose their lives to support him. The nerve.

I'm so glad I never had a trust fund or inheritance because I definitely would have given it away to him.

He's probably a registered Independent for PR reasons and a dyed in the wool Republican.

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Date: Wed, Apr 11, 2001 at 18:46:26 (GMT)
From: Joe
Email: None
To: Cynthia
Subject: Brazen!...
Message:
Not only that, you have to be at least fairly well off just to go to his 'events.' Even if you live in Australia, going to Amaroo costs mucho bucks. I have heard nothing about a sliding scale admission, nor any concern about people who might not have the do re mi to get in. Of course, if you give a lot, you get to sit 'close' and feel special.
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Date: Wed, Apr 11, 2001 at 22:16:29 (GMT)
From: Cynthia
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: Yeah, attracting the upper class!
Message:
Hi Joe,

I know premies who have into debt to get to Amaroo. Especially the ones the farthest away! Like the northeast.

I'd love to visit Australia one day. But not Amarooooo...By crocky, I want to see the Crocodile Hunter and his wife in their 'lair.' I would love to meet Aborgines people.

I'd die just of the bugs. You see, I'm a natural bug attractor. Yes, it's a joke among my friends: 'Cyn, just go to the corner of the deck, and the black flies, no-see-'ems and misquitoes will leave us alone.'

I noticed right before I left M, that the elitism had become prominent in the focus of attracting aspirants, and that spells: $$$$$

Hope you're well,
Love,
Cynthia

P.S. Loved your GetSmartCard

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Date: Sat, Apr 14, 2001 at 18:19:57 (GMT)
From: Joe
Email: None
To: Cynthia
Subject: Going to Australia -- it's a bargain
Message:
Quite apart from Amaroo, I am informed that Australia is a real bargain these days, once you get there. The Australian dollar has collapsed and is worth only about 50 cents US. A guy I was talking to last night says for Americans, everything is half price there. Apparently, this doesn't apply to Amaroo, though.

Do you think those mutual friends of ours in your neck of the woods are going to Amaroo? Hope not.

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Date: Wed, Apr 11, 2001 at 08:56:19 (GMT)
From: girlzone
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: Who is Valerio G?
Message:
Can anyone please provide any sort of information about a high ranking PAM called Valerio G. Does he have a brother? If so what is his name?

Thanks

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Date: Wed, Apr 11, 2001 at 11:28:31 (GMT)
From: Ian Dury
Email: None
To: girlzone
Subject: Who is Valerio P?
Message:
Valerio Pascotto is an inner-circle PAM who coordinates all of EV's 'trainings', including the 'special trainings' with 'the speaker'.
His brother Alvaro is also an inner circle PAM; he is an attorney, and is involved with most of the 'speakers' business deals.
Alvaro's wife, Linda, is the top-dog for EV 'Human Resources'.

Of course, all live in Malibu.
It's a family affair.

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Date: Wed, Apr 11, 2001 at 12:16:23 (GMT)
From: jondon
Email: None
To: Ian Dury
Subject: top-dog at HR
Message:
Ian, What ever happened to Terry Yingling at EV Human Resources?
Did she move on or is she with PR now? And is her husband a top-dog still with security? Thanks, jondon
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Date: Thurs, Apr 12, 2001 at 00:41:44 (GMT)
From: Ian Dury
Email: None
To: jondon
Subject: top-dog at HR
Message:
Jondon,

According to pals who remain active, Terry was with PR for years but has left that 'participation opportunity'.
Her husband remains vigilant as a member of the Divine Residence Security Force.

Ian

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Date: Thurs, Apr 12, 2001 at 04:30:09 (GMT)
From: jondon
Email: None
To: Ian
Subject: Thanks Ian...
Message:
...I had heard that Terry left that position. I wonder if it is because of all she read here during her daily duties of EPO monitoring. Her husband is strictly security at the residence? Does he ever do 'service' as security at events? He was pointed out to me once at an event as a 'Security Guy'. Not a very scary looking guy.

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Date: Thurs, Apr 12, 2001 at 17:23:43 (GMT)
From: Joe
Email: None
To: jondon
Subject: Who is Terry's husband who does res security? (nt)
Message:
nt
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Date: Wed, Apr 11, 2001 at 11:56:18 (GMT)
From: girlzone
Email: None
To: Ian Dury
Subject: Who is Valerio P?
Message:
Dear Ian,
thanks for that information. I wonder if these people ever stop and think for a moment about the consequences of their actions, about the lives of the people they effect. I wonder, for example, what they think about the Jagdeo situation? I know one PAM who laughed when he was told about it. Just laughed. I wonder why the sexual abuse of children is not taken seriously in Elan Vital? What sort of culture produces such an attitude?

girlzone

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Date: Wed, Apr 11, 2001 at 17:15:19 (GMT)
From: Kelly
Email: None
To: girlzone
Subject: What sort of culture produces such an attitude
Message:
What sort of culture produces such an attitude?
The sort that only cares about that 'feeling inside', the sort that excludes anything that is outside of their own experience of 'truth' to be not worthy of examination.
The sort that values 'feeling good' above everything, above any suffering they may see around them...after all what can they really do do help? And anyway, to quote the 'master' 'that's not our business. Let the rest of them worry about suffering and starvation etc. we're in the business of enjoying ourselves' ( Brighton 1994/5)
This is a question I have been contemplating for many years...'Is it possible to be truly happy, when even one other single human being is suffering?
There will always be suffering, hardship, injustice, It's part of life. The premie way is to forget about it. But that just doesn't work for me. So where does that leave me, in my innate quest for contentment?

Answer 1 Get nollidge, focus inside on my inner bliss and let the whole world carry on in it's ignorance?

Answer 2 Accept that suffering will always exist, but use any opportunity that comes along to get involved and help alleviate it. And, as a secondary priority, use whatever techniques I might find helpful to tune in to my own inner core of peace and stillness.

I found that during my life as a premie Answer 1 took pride of place. Nowadays, Answer 2 is proving a much more humanising alternative, not always as comfortable, but infinitely more satisfying to the human soul!
Love and peas
Kelly

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Date: Wed, Apr 11, 2001 at 20:09:52 (GMT)
From: Kev
Email: None
To: Kelly
Subject: What sort of culture produces such an attitude
Message:
Hi Kelly

Thanks for that lovely post. Sense I quit I have realized just how self-centred and selfish m's philosophy really is. Funny how the further I get away from m the more I see how bizzarre it all is.

like a lot of us, the first thing I did when I quit was to stop my standing orders to EV. But I now send the same money to a real charity that helps run away children. It makes me feel a lot better knowing that I maybe helping (all be it in a little way) my fellow human being. Which is more than can said of lardy boy.

Love Kev

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Date: Thurs, Apr 12, 2001 at 01:30:19 (GMT)
From: Disculta Darling
Email: None
To: Kev
Subject: What a great idea for exiting premies!
Message:
Kev, above, says that he has changed his standing order to EV and it goes to a charity instead. I've done the same since I left. You can keep a couple of kids going in Africa or the third world for a year for the price of a cognac.

When I was reading Kev's post, it occurred to me that this would be a great incentive to get wavering premies to make a definitive move. We could have it as a suggestion (maybe on the exiting page of this site) that they change their standing order to one of the following charities (we could have a list of children's charities or whatever). I think that this would give people a good feeling that might alleviate a lot of the subconscious programmed guilt they might be feeling as they leave. I mean, for some people, it is a great liberation to just spend the money themselves, but for others, I think this would create a great bridge where exiting would feel like an ethical step forward (which it is).

Just thinking. Whaddaya think?

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Date: Thurs, Apr 12, 2001 at 02:32:22 (GMT)
From: la-ex
Email: None
To: Disculta Darling
Subject: Abused kids, anti-cult groups for starters nt
Message:
ff
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Date: Wed, Apr 11, 2001 at 18:20:50 (GMT)
From: suchabanana
Email: None
To: Kelly aka Toejamanand
Subject: yes,we are attaining our humanity -swirled peas(nt
Message:
peace and lentils
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Date: Wed, Apr 11, 2001 at 20:32:09 (GMT)
From: toejamanand
Email: None
To: suchabanana
Subject: can't believe I spelled peace rong, sorry swami nt
Message:
peeees
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Date: Wed, Apr 11, 2001 at 22:04:50 (GMT)
From: kev
Email: None
To: toejamanand
Subject: I can't spell either (since not sense) Doh!! -nt
Message:
nt
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Date: Wed, Apr 11, 2001 at 15:00:47 (GMT)
From: gerry
Email: None
To: girlzone
Subject: What sort of culture produces such an attitude?
Message:
My two cents, Riotgrrrrl? A culture of narcissism, extreme self-centeredness, and corruption from the top down. Elan Vital is an org with no morals and no compunction against destroying peoples' lives to get what they want.

Don't let them get you down, you have all of our support, and love so hang in there.

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Date: Tues, Apr 10, 2001 at 23:17:12 (GMT)
From: Mad Scientist Helen
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: Reclaiming the intellect
Message:
Since you've all been so good about indulging me in sharing my little theory (or diagram that has no pictures, Katie D. tells me she can visualize it though), I thought of an essential part of recovery: Reclaiming the intellect. In recovery we reclaim our poor, maltreated and starved intellects and start to once again slake our intellectual thirst. EB describes the premie world as an intellectual desert. So many people here have remarked on how once they left, their intellectual appetites were voracious after all that deprivation. It's almost like we had to play catch up after all that time.

In the bhakti world of M the intellect was like the worst, most hated element of a human being. I was criticized constantly for being too intellectual in premie land.

It's not only in the bhakti tradition that the intellect is seen as inferior. I think the intellect is an undervalued part of spirituality that in fact, forms the basis of how one chooses to express oneself in the world and treat others(which to me should be the whole basis of religion). Without the intellect, there is no evaluative process, no moral thought. No wonder the intellect was what M wanted most to steal from us!

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Date: Wed, Apr 11, 2001 at 22:01:07 (GMT)
From: Kelly
Email: None
To: Mad Scientist Helen
Subject: Bugger Bhakti!
Message:
Dear Helen,

Firstly, I suffered from arrested intellectual developement for years! Through living the ashram life.

Secondly, I got into this through his Dad, who was far more intelligent and wrote a pamphlet called 'Read Think and Know' which answered all my questions (at the time) Talk about conflict!

Thirdly, I remember strongly believing, and I still do, that the intellectual search can take you to God...in fact, that all thoughtful enquiry will take you to the ultimate goal...albeit where the mind has to suspend thought and give way to a 'higher' consciousness, understanding, realisation. call it what you will!
Mostly, for me, it has involved dissolving into helpless giggles! C'est la vie! I'm sure I'll write a treatise on it one day...if I'm spared!!
Bugger Bhakti!
Kelly
PS I've forgotten the secret!

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Date: Wed, Apr 11, 2001 at 02:21:44 (GMT)
From: Selene
Email: None
To: Mad Scientist Helen
Subject: Reclaiming the intellect but how? please tell me
Message:
I don't think mine has returned yet. And I am NOT going to ask M for it, he has not a thing to give, only can take away.

Remember the days with the dumbest ditzs were considered 'so connected' when they gave satsang? I used to think, why can't I be like that?

selene another day of programming without a clue, sorry if I'm silly

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Date: Thurs, Apr 12, 2001 at 05:35:28 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Selene
Subject: Lots and lots of crossword puzzles (nt)
Message:
ggggggg
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Date: Thurs, Apr 12, 2001 at 23:26:56 (GMT)
From: PatC
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Amen, Crosswords: calisthenics for the mind. NT
Message:
k
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Date: Fri, Apr 13, 2001 at 00:10:32 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: PatC
Subject: Uh, I was kidding. I'm confused - were you? (nt)
Message:
dddd
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Date: Fri, Apr 13, 2001 at 01:10:22 (GMT)
From: PatC
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: I thought you might be kidding but the NY Times
Message:
crossword is my morning mental gymnastics.
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Date: Wed, Apr 11, 2001 at 11:59:19 (GMT)
From: Bryn
Email: Bryndaviesesq@hotmail.com
To: Selene
Subject: Reclaiming the intellect but how? please tell me
Message:
Hello Selene.
I have been reading a lot recently and it is definitely a good thing. What I have found though is the tendency for the content of what is read to go in one ear and out the other. This ability to forget is a blessing, but can be a problem too. So then I discovered that what I needed was a more active connection with my powers of memory. That was a very exiting discovery, because to investigate my memory was to look into the material of my own consciousness-that meant separating out language, image, emotion, and above all thinking. So to me the first step in 'reclaiming the intellect' was actually to focus on my faculty of memory in its many facets.

What I think is so crippling about K meditation (at least as it affected me) is the complete absence of any participation in it by the individual will. The will to consciously remember, I have found, is a great starting point for prodding a sleepy mind into action. Also conscious body- movement as in dance and drama with the emphasis on remembered sequences of gesture helps loads.

I don't actually agree with the idea that we are 'reclaiming' the intellect as ex-premies. We are more probably meeting it for the first time! Anyway thank you for your post. It gave me a chance to organise my thoughts which at the moment is a slow process.
love Bryn

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Date: Wed, Apr 11, 2001 at 21:58:55 (GMT)
From: Helen
Email: None
To: Bryn
Subject: memory
Message:
I think you're onto an important point with your idea about memory. Our minds did get lazy didn't they? Now let's see, what was I goign to say???

Regarding 'reclaiming' vs. meeting for the first time, I think I was pretty much into learning as a kid and teenager before I detoured into all this guru stuff. A mind being inquiring and wanting to learn seems pretty natural to me. That's what I meant by reclaiming, but you have a point there.

My memory is horrible, and I have a music gig Friday night with 5 new songs--help!

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Date: Thurs, Apr 12, 2001 at 21:01:44 (GMT)
From: Bryn
Email: Bryndaviesesq@hotmail.com
To: Helen
Subject: memory
Message:
Dear Helen,
This way of communicating is so volatile isn't it. My flippant comment about reclaiming etc. was felt by you to be a slight misunderstanding, and a diminishing of your point, and I can totally see now how this could be. But at the time I was simply intent on being frivolous!
Thank god neither of us has quick trigger fingers. This internet medium is very spiky. Its not talking and its not writing. Its not carving in stone, but its not consequence-free either. And neither is it listening as such, because there is no-one specific to listen to. Anyway I find it volatile and that makes me cautious. Five new songs in one gig? I know a lot about gigs of one kind and another-five new songs?! What will happen?
I always find people like what they know.
Love Bryn
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Date: Wed, Apr 11, 2001 at 23:54:07 (GMT)
From: Selene
Email: None
To: Helen
Subject: memory
Message:
I agree to some extent Helen, it's like we just stopped trying somehow. I have inate intelligence but am VERY bad about working on something that is overly hard for me. I tend to either squirm out of it or ask for help.

My new programming projects have maxed out my brain and I can't understand why.
I'd like to say it was all due to cult involvement but just can't. I do think all the things you said are valid though. It's just if I give myself an honest search I think it's even more complex than that but then,

Maybe it isn't. I didn't use my brain for an entire decade and more and that IS because of my involvement to a large extent. It's so confusing and this thread interests me so much because I am having the damndest time learning this new language.
(programming language) My boss and coworkers are just looking at me like 'What's the problem?' you are too hard on yourself, they say. And tell me I am ding fine. eesssh - It's all mixed up.

Time to read a work of fiction. I'm bummed. ps to my PERL helpers, its not PERL, they won't let me work in PERL anymore :(

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Date: Wed, Apr 11, 2001 at 14:31:25 (GMT)
From: Selene
Email: None
To: Bryn
Subject: memory
Message:
Thanks Bryn. What you are saying about memory has been something I have noticed as well. That was why I wrote to Helen and Pat that I know I am doing bad when I cannot read. The words go in and out and I have to go back to the page, or even paragraph I have just read again and again.
Fortunately that is an episodal thing with me but it IS taking practice especially with work tech stuff I am not all that interested in but have to know.
I think all the suggestions here have been great!! and am happy to see the image of the spaced out bimbo is passe, at lest outside of the cults.
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Date: Wed, Apr 11, 2001 at 02:27:11 (GMT)
From: Joy
Email: None
To: Selene
Subject: Read, Selene, Read
Message:
Anything and everything, not just fiction. That's my advice!
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Date: Wed, Apr 11, 2001 at 02:33:22 (GMT)
From: Selene
Email: None
To: Joy
Subject: Read, Selene, Read
Message:
Thanks Joy. Anything and everything except Java Manuals. They make me feel stupid.
Finally am getting around to Bridgette Jones Diary and now I see they have made a movie already!
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Date: Wed, Apr 11, 2001 at 02:59:46 (GMT)
From: PatC
Email: None
To: Selene
Subject: Joy took the words out of my mouth
Message:
There isn't enough time to read all the wonderful books in the world. It is great keeping company with really smart people. I still enjoy good literature, biographies and history - people watching.
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Date: Wed, Apr 11, 2001 at 02:18:44 (GMT)
From: Joy
Email: None
To: Mad Scientist Helen
Subject: Great Post, Helen
Message:
Excellent post Helen (as was your other one about mind/body split).

Do you remember how Maharaji used to denigrate book reading? He used to brag about how he'd only read two books in his life, and one was a flight manual. I remember him talking about trying to read a book once and tossing it away in disgust after five minutes. Somebody else might remember the exact quote, but I remember being somewhat shocked at the time, that he'd read so few books and thought it was of so little value, and tried to suppress my natural reading instinct accordingly.

And to think I let this dangerous ignoramus rule my life for 10 years, I can hardly believe it now. I've been a voracious reader ever since leaving, of course. How I could've let him suppress this most vital part of my being is a mystery. Oh well, I guess I'm making up for it now, and it's all the sweeter for having been missed. But it's just unbelievable, really. I didn't read a newspaper, listen to radio, watch TV or go to the movies for almost 9 years in the 1970s -- I didn't even know Watergate had happened (nor did I care). How can people say we weren't brainwashed and in a cult when we were denied access to information like that, told what to think and feel, and requested to suppress all intellectual functions?

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Date: Thurs, Apr 12, 2001 at 12:20:21 (GMT)
From: Katie H
Email: None
To: Joy
Subject: I couldn't stop reading
Message:
Even when I was a premie - and of course, starting to go to college and THINK stopped my premie career in its tracks. I consider myself lucky.

Joy, about Watergate - I know I have told this story before, but my best friend (before, during, and after we were premies) who is very bright and politically conscious, ended up being a 'householder' premie with a baby at the age of 18. She used to wait until her husband went to work in the morning and then secretly turn on NPR and listen to the Watergate hearings. She kept this a big secret from anyone in the premie community (maya, and all that), but she couldn't help it! I think some of us had a imperative need to keep learning even when we weren't supposed to.

And, BTW, I do NOT believe analysis leads to paralysis! Circular thinking can lead to paralysis - but analysis can END paralysis, if properly done (and sometimes you need outside input for this). I can understand why M doesn't want anyone to analyze anything, though.

Love,
Katie

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Date: Wed, Apr 11, 2001 at 21:51:16 (GMT)
From: Helen
Email: None
To: Joy
Subject: reading is bliss
Message:
Yes indeed. Reading is just about the most fun a person can have alone (singing is a close second for me).
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Date: Wed, Apr 11, 2001 at 08:44:43 (GMT)
From: Disculta Darling
Email: None
To: Joy
Subject: Voracious reading - curing analysis paralysis
Message:
Me too - I started when I left in 1984 and gradually speeded up to a frenzy of about a book a day. Everything from Bridget Jones Diart (I've read the sequel!) to travel to scientific, spiritual and psychological stuff.

Did any of you catch the quotes from the EV website below where they say that MJ is altogether against 'paralysis by analysis' or some such crap?

Of course, you can see why he wouldn't want anyone around him analyzing anything.

That 'I've read 2 books in my life' quote was a major drip for me.

love Disculta

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Date: Wed, Apr 11, 2001 at 04:55:13 (GMT)
From: Richard
Email: None
To: Joy
Subject: The book M didn't read was Mein Kampf
Message:
I vividly remember him saying he was being driven somewhere. Someone suggested he read Mein Kampf but instead he took it and flung it into the back seat. Funny how that image stuck with me. I would venture to theorize that instead of learning from history, M has put Hitler's autobiography in the back seat of his subconscious where it is festering.

Even in the ashram I always read novels, head books whatever. Saved by Kurt Vonegut's Slaughterhouse Five and Sirens of Titan and Ram Dass's The Only Dance There Is.

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Date: Wed, Apr 11, 2001 at 21:11:02 (GMT)
From: Joe
Email: None
To: Richard
Subject: Close but no cigar, Richard
Message:
Actually, it was 'The Rise and Fall of the Third Reich.'

But I recall the rest of it as you said. He was in a car and he picked up the book, read about a paragraph and threw it into the back seat. Then he proceeded to denigrate the very idea of wasting one's time reading books.

This must have been around 1973 or 1974, because it was shortly after I graduated college and got into the cult. I had read the book in college, really thought it was interesting, and had to work hard to repress my feelings about how anti-intellectual Maharaji was.

Let's face it. The whole cult was VERY anti-intellectual and I've heard it still is. I remember during the ashram inquisition in 1981, the Nazi David Smith, confiscated books of the ashram premies, and lambasted people who read them. He flipped when he found out that some of the ashram brothers played chess, which had been instigated by another initiator, BTW. He laid into me because he said I was too 'into' my job -- I guess because I actually talked to him about it.

But that all came from Maharaji. He is not well-read or well informed. No wonder he sounds like an incoherent child when he speaks.

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Date: Wed, Apr 11, 2001 at 08:00:25 (GMT)
From: Jethro
Email: None
To: Richard
Subject: At least some of his devotees were into
Message:
reading books about the Nazis.
When I moved to Acton ashram (circa 1979), I was shocked to find several books about the Gestapo. I think these premies were impressed by the Gestapo's organisation methods. Also, of course, 'The Godfather' was also really loved because, as it was explained to me, it taught us about devotion.

Shees, I feel sick to my stomach!!!

Why didn't I then?

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Date: Wed, Apr 11, 2001 at 21:32:46 (GMT)
From: Helen
Email: None
To: Jethro
Subject: At least some of his devotees were into
Message:
YIKES!!

That is stomach turning. Yes, they knew about blind devotion, all right!

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Date: Wed, Apr 11, 2001 at 10:33:07 (GMT)
From: Dave Punshon
Email: None
To: Jethro
Subject: At least some of his devotees were into
Message:
Interesting Jethro, I remember that at Acton too.
One of the premies, into security at the residence, went to his wardrobe and took a box out. In the box was a hand gun, Italian I believe. Sort of shocked me, but I was a brainwashed security
service guy at the time, so I justified it to myself in some way or another.
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Date: Wed, Apr 11, 2001 at 11:44:42 (GMT)
From: Jethro
Email: None
To: Dave Punshon
Subject: Hi Dave
Message:
I hope that some of those people will come forward.
I remember very clearly who was there.

You and I were the fools who went out to work to support those 'who served the Lord directly'.

Do you ever remember 'The General' doing any work for a living?
(Oh I forgot, his accident...what a good excuse for everything.)

I'm still really pissed at many of those guys.
Anyway, enough for now.

Love to C and yourself.

Jethro

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Date: Wed, Apr 11, 2001 at 11:17:30 (GMT)
From: janet
Email: None
To: Dave Punshon
Subject: YOU'RE A NEW NAME--TELL US ABOUT YOURSELF
Message:
havent seen you posst here before, Dave. you exing? thinking on it? still in UK?
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Date: Wed, Apr 11, 2001 at 20:02:13 (GMT)
From: Dave Punshon
Email: None
To: janet
Subject: YOU'RE A NEW NAME--TELL US ABOUT YOURSELF
Message:
Hi Janet

I used to post as ex-mug and have been an ex for about 5 years. Unfortunately because of a hectic work schedule recently I haven't had the chance to visit this forum much. Whenever I do,however, I thoroughly enjoy reading peoples' comments, and find most of them interesting and helpful.

wishing you the very best

Dave

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Date: Wed, Apr 11, 2001 at 22:30:34 (GMT)
From: AJW
Email: None
To: Dave Punshon
Subject: Hoi Dave
Message:
Hoya avond Dave,

hope all is well with you and yours. You should come along to one of our Latvian nights sometime and meet up with some old pals who've fallen from the holy path and have only a few years left before they burn in hell for eternity (like us two).

All is well in the lowlands, hope we can meet up sometime and chew the cud.

Anth the hairy tic

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Date: Thurs, Apr 12, 2001 at 12:09:31 (GMT)
From: Dave Punshon
Email: None
To: AJW
Subject: Hoi Dave
Message:
Hi Anth

It would be great to meet up with you sometime, perhaps the next Latvain night. Hope both Dot and yourself are well

all the best

Dave

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Date: Wed, Apr 11, 2001 at 17:55:31 (GMT)
From: Bazza
Email: None
To: janet
Subject: Jeezus Janet!
Message:
Bit trigger happy today?:)
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Date: Wed, Apr 11, 2001 at 11:49:12 (GMT)
From: Jethro
Email: None
To: janet
Subject: he's 'older' than you. Used to be called ex-mug NT
Message:
NT
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Date: Wed, Apr 11, 2001 at 08:10:54 (GMT)
From: Jethro
Email: None
To: Richard
Subject: Oh I forgot to mention that most of
Message:
these premies were doing prempal's personal security.
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Date: Wed, Apr 11, 2001 at 02:00:19 (GMT)
From: Gregg
Email: None
To: Mad Scientist Helen
Subject: Reclaiming the intellect
Message:
In the few late-seventies years I was involved with Rawat-worshipping: Looking back on it, it's really quite amazing to remember how many smart and sensitive folks were also on the bus.

I mean, you'd think intelligent people would stay away from such an obviously thought-free cult...unless...hmm. Maybe we equated the intellect with 1) society's problems...Vietnam,racism etc...
and 2) our own (family-related) psychological problems.

As it turned out, abandoning our thought processes did not solve our problems. 'No duh,' as today's youngsters would tell us.

Well, live and learn.

My brain is actually a beautiful thing. Thinking and meditating and feeling, along with the body, a beautiful thing.

THE MIND!! OOH! WATCH OUT FOR IT!

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Date: Wed, Apr 11, 2001 at 00:13:29 (GMT)
From: Pat Conlon
Email: None
To: Mad Scientist Helen
Subject: A shot in the arm, Helen. Thanks
Message:
You said: ''Without the intellect, there is no evaluative process, no moral thought. No wonder the intellect was what M wanted most to steal from us!''

Rev Rawat had a very poorly developed intellect and, like most arrogant ignoramuses, everybody was more stupid than him and that he of course was brilliant. Guruism is all about enthralling unthinking people.

I got caught up because I had blown a fuse on drugs and could no longer think my way out of my difficulties.

This also ties in with Babs question about how many of us also sacrificed our creativity which requires the most unfettered and bold intellect.

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Date: Wed, Apr 11, 2001 at 03:22:51 (GMT)
From: Helen
Email: None
To: Pat Conlon
Subject: Pat/Selene
Message:
Yes, I thought about Babs and her reclaiming her creativity. I loved what she said about the implication that anything original we created out of our own talent, skills, intellect was ego, unless it directly served Maharaji's mission (whatever that was).
The cursed ego! Worse than the devil himself!
This whole idea of giving up the ego is total hogwash.

I'm proud to have my ego back in tact and wouldn't give it away again if Jesus himself came and walked on the water in front of me. It's so ludicrous to give that away. If God wants 'his' children to not have egos, then all the medical and scientific advances will have to go too, and all the beautiful plays, books, musical scores, films, and ballets because all that is from creativity and ego. Selene, certainly your creativity in your writing is part of your intellect. I don't imagine you felt free to write the way you do when you were a premie. Then again, you were probably a rebel premie.

And yes, Pat, M is an ignoramous, without class and manners, and without intelligence. He's added nothing of value to religious and spiritual thought as far as I can see. I remember someone here noting the constrast between him and someone like Nelson Mandela. With that kind of real hero to measure him against, don't we all feel foolish for thinkg him (Maharaji) to be anything worth giving up our precious EGOS for, for God's sake.

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Date: Wed, Apr 11, 2001 at 03:41:03 (GMT)
From: Selene
Email: None
To: Helen
Subject: Helen/Pat
Message:
Interesting , I didn't write in the 70s premie years much at all. Wrote a lot in the 80s when M was hiding out for the most part and there was no premie community here. I found some of it a while back even poetry!!
Then no writing when he came back revised edition 90s M.
I think you are on to something there Helen and to this day I know when I am doing bad because I can't read.
Also, thanks for the complement.

Pat thanks too for the reading comment, you would not believe how many books I go through. Not so much literature, but I do try to read good reviews to find books and stay away from the supermarket picks.

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Date: Wed, Apr 11, 2001 at 00:08:13 (GMT)
From: jumbler
Email: None
To: Mad Scientist Helen
Subject: Reclaiming the intellect
Message:
Also the loss of ego, or do I mean self esteem, can be so harmful. I was fooled into believing that only by totally submiting to m and giving up my mind and ability to think, could I attain peace! I now realise we attain peace through rational educated thought and the awareness of spirituality. Meditation may be a factor in this process, supergurubabble certainly is not.
What pisses me off most is the cruel manipulation of troubled truth-seeking souls by DLM/EV, how many happy shiny people seek K?
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Date: Sat, Apr 14, 2001 at 05:21:52 (GMT)
From: Helen
Email: None
To: jumbler
Subject: rational mind as way to spiritual growth
Message:
One of the things that really strikes me again and again (something Runamok and I have discussed several times), is that a person can meditate 8 hours a day, have all kinds of samadhi experiences, get totally 'blissed out', etc. and still be a complete asshole. It kind of ilustrates that while meditation might help a person get 'there,' their will or ego has to be involved in the process of their becoming a better person. I'm not big on reading the Bible, but I always liked that Corinthians 13 that says (I'm paraphrasing) you can have all sorts of spiritual powers up the wazoo, but if you don't have love you don't have squat. So I agree that any spiritual growth occurs mainly by rational thought.

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Date: Wed, Apr 11, 2001 at 00:26:12 (GMT)
From: PatC
Email: None
To: jumbler
Subject: ''supergurubabble'' - that's cute, jumbler
Message:
In my post responding to Helen above I nearly wrote that the next step was ''surrender.'' I was terrified of what that meant but tried nevertheless to do it.

For me the biggest psychological healing to do on myself is cleaning up the wound that ''surrender'' bullshit left on my soul (for lack of a better word.)

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Date: Wed, Apr 11, 2001 at 22:15:31 (GMT)
From: jumbler
Email: None
To: PatC
Subject: ''supergurubabble'' - that's cute, jumbler
Message:
glad you liked it. er i'm a bit confused about your comments elsewhere on 'new names'. i'm new to the forum am i on probation here?
whoops forgot the shift key again.
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Date: Wed, Apr 11, 2001 at 23:58:23 (GMT)
From: PatC
Email: None
To: jumbler
Subject: Hi, jumbler, sorry about that
Message:
Was it the conversation between Cynthia and me that was confusing? We were talking about a new poster who she feels has used her and I was talking about a current cult member who has just started posting. We were just expressing our caution about them. DEFINITELY nothing to do with you, lad.

In fact I hope to hear a lot more from you. Good god, no, there's no ''probabtion.'' Just in the past month we have had a few premie disrupters here and some of us are a bit leery of two of the new posters, but as I said you are definitely not one of them. You didn't arrive and try to put a new spin on the old urug. I'm sure I'm not the only one who's pleased to have you here.

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Date: Thurs, Apr 12, 2001 at 23:17:13 (GMT)
From: jumbler
Email: None
To: PatC
Subject: just stage fright
Message:
Thanks for that, this place is a bit confusing to a new boy, lots of wierd stuff going on in the backgound obviously. Hope i can contribute some positive stuff from my experiences over the years as an ex.
I'm surprised how talking about k & dlm, has churned up forgotten emotions & feelings in me. Pretty positive though, Helen's posts have really made an impact.
See arond
Jumbler

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Date: Sat, Apr 14, 2001 at 05:15:06 (GMT)
From: Helen
Email: None
To: jumbler
Subject: stage fright
Message:
Hey Jumbler,
I was completely intimidated by this place when I first found it. Didn't think my skin was thick enough to deal with it. Now I take it small-ish doses and with a pound of salt. Lots of good info here and good people too. But its public nature makes it somewhat of a crap shoot. Just remember if you get flamed, sometimes it means the person sending out the flame is really angry about something totally unrelated. Anyway, take care.
Helen
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Date: Wed, Apr 11, 2001 at 01:11:50 (GMT)
From: Cynthia
Email: None
To: PatC
Subject: Me too, Pat
Message:
There're a lot of phrases and words that ''get me'' and surrender is one. The others are prayer, praying, soul, knowledge, bliss, it seems so many words got so tainted by the cultspeak and my internalizing those beliefs.

I have to reframe my thinking and feeling behind those words...

Hope you're well,
Cynthia

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Date: Wed, Apr 11, 2001 at 02:54:40 (GMT)
From: PatC
Email: None
To: Cynthia
Subject: Cynthia, many words were cheapened by the urug
Message:
I'm fine thanks. I hope you are well too.

Words like heart and soul which I never used relgiously but poetically have also been ruined by the urug. Even love. I am also carefully watching the peron who emailed you. A couple of us are.

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Date: Wed, Apr 11, 2001 at 15:09:08 (GMT)
From: Cynthia
Email: None
To: PatC
Subject: Hi Pat, those damn words!!
Message:
Thanks, Pat,

Words. Yes, I'm pretty upset about this person, and feel bad about posting an email, but I felt compelled to do it. I'm not paranoid, but I am angry right now. This, too, shall pass. As soon as I stop shaking....

Love,
Cynthia

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Date: Wed, Apr 11, 2001 at 18:07:19 (GMT)
From: PatC
Email: None
To: Cynthia
Subject: Hi Cynthia, those damn words!!
Message:
After I got flak for thinking two other trolls were agents provocateurs I have been very cautious of all new posters. Ordinary nice premies would not post here unless they were looking for answers to their doubts. The latest two newcomers definitely struck me from their first posts as being people to be cautious of. I got the creeps right from the start. But creeps aren't proof so I don't jump out and accuse anymore the way I did. I just wait and watch and hope that people do not start email confidences with these guys until there stories check out. Like you, I trust my instincts.
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Date: Wed, Apr 11, 2001 at 00:42:33 (GMT)
From: such
Email: None
To: PatC
Subject: James rightly terms it: 'learned helplessness' (nt
Message:
Peace and lentils,
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Date: Tues, Apr 10, 2001 at 23:57:16 (GMT)
From: suchabanana
Email: None
To: Mad Scientist Helen
Subject: Hear,hear!Reclaiming Intelligence vs. intellectual
Message:
Intelligence is capable wisdom, knowledge, intuition

the intellectual is incapable, pontificating supposition

in the cult, even innate intelligence was misunderstood,
defiled and derided,
to protect Mack Daddy of the 'hood...

Peace and lentils,

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Date: Wed, Apr 11, 2001 at 06:24:33 (GMT)
From: Zelda
Email: None
To: helen
Subject: reclaiming the ability to reclaim
Message:
yup
when I finally exed myself I became a ridiculous reader-classics from russian to hardy . I read like I had been starved for 20 years. Somehow it helped to develope my discretion that had been stunted for so long.

applied for Mensa - passed -and then flatlined and now I take ginko

intuitive thinking is my new bag

we should start a book club

Z

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Date: Thurs, Apr 12, 2001 at 18:12:20 (GMT)
From: Berni
Email: None
To: Zelda
Subject: reclaiming the ability to reclaim
Message:
Hi Zelda and everyone,
I've always wanted to be in a book club. If there is ever a sub-forum I'd love to join. I think you all agree on a book to read and then after a few weeks discuss the merits or not.
But regarding claiming back the intellect..
I think I experienced a backlash when I left and also got into reading. It was great to be able to read things and enjoy them for what they were rather than always seeing how an authors views fitted in with my certainties about life, god and all that stuff.
If I read anything whilst a premie and it became obvious that the writer was not inclined towards mystical interpretations then I gave up. Once I realised that my perspective on life might not be the absolute truth that I thought it was I absorbed other people's feelings in a much more open way and this in turn led to greater understanding of what it is to be human. Now I realise that there are a lot of people out there who know some important stuff, whereas whilst in the premie world the only person worth learning from was the 'one true guru'.
Studying some 'real' subject such as psychology, evolution, mathematics etc., although hard going, also helped and working towards a degree gave me much needed discipline to see something through to the end.
I have gotten lazy recently and must take up the intellectual pursuits again, although I think you can go too far down that road and become an 'academic' who might know lots about everything but has little experience of the real world.
I guess I'm still trying to find the balance between head and heart.
I have learnt that you cannot ignore the rational, reasonable argument and to be careful of following pipe dreams ( I still have 'em though ). No matter what we learn through reading I feel it will never be enough to give us courage and wisdom; in order to flourish as human beings we must interact with each other and this forum seems to be a good place to do it.
cheers
Berni
BTW If you are there Dave Punshon - are you still doing music? I always like what you did, and do you know how Phil Grealy or Jeff(now L*** - I won't say the new name for privacy reasons but I'm sure you know who I mean) is?
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Date: Fri, Apr 13, 2001 at 07:48:55 (GMT)
From: Zelda
Email: None
To: Berni
Subject: reclaiming the ability to reclaim
Message:
Hi Berni

it would be great to have a book club or at least a group reading the same book
Even a book list is a good start.

have no idea how to get one going though....
It would take a web page ect and I can barley work the toaster.
Z

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Date: Fri, Apr 13, 2001 at 11:51:17 (GMT)
From: Berni
Email: bernibe@flashmail.com
To: Zelda
Subject: The Book Club
Message:
Hi Zelda,
I've just written a reply to JHB (Spies at Latvian Night LOL)
in which I reveal my penchant for clubs of any sort ( except the premie sort ) so I will, given the time, investigate the web knowledge required to start such a club. I too am not much good at working toasters but I'm keen to learn more about using the web to make the world a smaller place.
If I ever get it together I'll post the news although I hope that some other web wizard on this forum will beat me too it as it could be quite a while.
cheers
Berni
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Date: Thurs, Apr 12, 2001 at 22:22:37 (GMT)
From: such
Email: None
To: Berni
Subject: Heart vs. Head:Tristam Shandy,TJefferson's fave(nt
Message:
nt
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Date: Wed, Apr 11, 2001 at 21:39:51 (GMT)
From: Helen
Email: None
To: Zelda
Subject: reclaiming the ability to reclaim
Message:
'reclaiming the ability to reclaim'--ain't it the truth? We all need to know how to relearn this for our own survival, because there will be lots of strife along the way, especialy if we're lucky enough to live to ripe old ages.

Yes a book club would be great. There are so many book titles mentioned here. Katie H is a great one for lending out her considerable collection of great books. Can you imagine though, a group of ex-premies trying to decide which book to read that month? How many ex-es does it take to put in a light bulb? One to replace the bulb and 29 to provide an analysis of it and 50 spin off threads on their analyses and...

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Date: Thurs, Apr 12, 2001 at 13:16:44 (GMT)
From: Zelda
Email: None
To: Helen
Subject: reclaiming the ability to reclaim
Message:
ya fer sure

a book club would need categories me thinks.

back to Klingslover...

Z.

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Date: Wed, Apr 11, 2001 at 17:48:40 (GMT)
From: such
Email: None
To: Zelda
Subject: 'A mind is a terrible thing to lose...' damn quail
Message:
First, I disengaged for a few years in the '80s when not much was going on in the cult - went to grad school and became a virtual fiend for studying and learning a host of new things, then ended up teaching college in 2 separate fields for 15 years. Also got involved with public service/charity, wrote hundreds of articles, gigged, composed, and produced music, then after making a final ex-it toward the close of the 20th century, wrote a book [which is going to the printer soon].

I now feel more confident and have regained my own identity, independent of any cult concepts and brain-washing [i.e. guru is God, Master, or the Father / premies are infants] -- tapping in on my own intuition, intelligence, and discernment based on life experiences. I also personally subscribe to a faith based on my inner relationship with my Creator, which includes silent prayer and meditations. My mind is a tool - Not my enemy. I do try to minimize any negative internal dialogue, and I have found that a natural, vitamin-rich low-fat diet and basic diaphragmic breathing exercises mitigate a number of health problems. Hatha yoga, weight-training, and/or other regular exercise (e.g. daily walks, especially for aging Baby Boomers) are great for one's physical and emotional well-being.

'A mind is a terrible thing to lose,' said silver-spoon politico Dan Quayle, mocked by many [including me]. Actually, there's a point there. In fact, I believe in being the Master of one's mind, and using one's cumulative intelligence as conscientiously as possible. Ignorance and mindless surrender of our lives and destinies to another fallible human being are not bliss. On the contrary, we have reclaimed the helms of our own ships. If I need any help crossing an ocean of material illusion, I know where to find it -- within. Indeed, the only trustworthy guru is within each of us; others need not apply...

Peace and lentils,

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Date: Wed, Apr 11, 2001 at 21:42:25 (GMT)
From: Helen
Email: None
To: such
Subject: Bush is worse with the malapropisms
Message:
...but regarding your post, 'others need not apply'--amen to that, brother.
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Date: Tues, Apr 10, 2001 at 22:50:15 (GMT)
From: Jule
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: Hi everyone
Message:
I have been reading here for a few months and it has really changed my life. Of all people, a PWK, somebody who is a devout premie, told me about this website. It seems all the premies know about it and lots of them talk about it. I think most of them lurk around here frequently, but wouldn't admit it. I asked other premies if they know about it, and they all did -- every one of them.

So, I've been reading, and it has really turned my head around. Now I feel like such an idiot for being involved with that jerk, or thinking he was anybody but a con man. I appreciate all you ex-premies a lot for having this place, so thanks from me. I know some of you -- or I did back when, and you would probably know me, too. I was a loyal ashram premie, IHQ-staffer, a 'Decette' (remember when we performed a 'rockets' routine at M's birthday party?), an initiator candidate, and all-around good cult member.

I'm currently married to a non-premie. He isn't the least bit interested in M or K, but never objected to me going to videos and going to programs. When I told him about all this, he was relieved. Seems he hasn't told me he was concerned about it for years, but thought I would eventually 'grow out of it.' I guess I finally have.

Some of it was fun, but what a gigantic waste of time it was. And to think I have carried on at the fringes, going to programs, watching videos (which are more vacant and boring than watching paint dry), and giving money. That's over now. Now I feel a little like a brat, needling my premie friends with the latest revelation about what a subhuman jerk Maharaji is. For his failure to stop Jagdeo, alone, he should be slapped silly and made to clean the toilets of everyone Jagdeo abused for the rest of their lives. That's the least he could do.

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Date: Wed, Apr 11, 2001 at 21:59:22 (GMT)
From: kev
Email: None
To: Jule
Subject: Welcome to the rest of your life
Message:
Hi Jule,

Just had to say hello and welcome to the forum. I have only been here a little while myself and I have to say it is like a breath of fresh to be able to take openly talk about m and what a SHIT he really is.

Must go now I'm starting to fall asleep at the keyboard Z z z z z z z z z z z z z z z..........

Goodnight Jule,

love kev.

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Date: Wed, Apr 11, 2001 at 20:10:30 (GMT)
From: Kelly
Email: None
To: Jule
Subject: Hi everyone
Message:
Hello and welcome to you Jule,
I've only been around here for quite a short time myself, getting on for 5 months now. it's been a very strange time, in a way, I'm glad I went through it in Winter (in this time zone anyway) Now, the sun is shining the grass needs cutting, I saw swallows today, there are flowers and blossom everywhere. I even got a bit sun-burned.
But listen, this is a very deeply traumatic experience, I kid you not. It has taken a lota of courage and honesty on my part, that I didn't even know i had....and a HUGE amount of support from this forum. Without this support, we would probably need therapy, and some of us still do. It is all still fresh for me and although I have celebrated my freedom, I have also been through some very flat times, where everything has come into question.
My first question.
How can I ever trust my judgement again? Answer?????
I also have a non premie husband, he also is relieved...but he was also part brainwashed. It's been a shock for him too.
My very best wishes
Kelly
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Date: Wed, Apr 11, 2001 at 21:35:57 (GMT)
From: Ulf
Email: None
To: Kelly
Subject: How can i ever trust my judgement again
Message:
Hi Kelly
Yes it is really something that can make you doubt your
own judgement.
How could i be such a fool , i keep asking myself
i dont know it all , but i am getting a lot closer to the answer
I was so very young , (21) .
And M came with the perfect solution for me
it all made sense.
I never even heard the name guru , before him.

I could get the real thing , without eating anything else
than that. this was fucking God, and the whole world could not
see that it was God
But i saw it clearly.
I was the chosen one ,, yes?

Now years later ,,come on ,, come on
Could i do the same mistake again, in another set up?

No i could never do that again.
But surely the thing that you , did once, makes you ,,, ???????

Best Ulf

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Date: Fri, Apr 13, 2001 at 02:58:11 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Ulf
Subject: That's why I'm here, Ulf. Don't worry, send money
Message:
You've been chosen all over again, Ulf. Where do you do your banking?
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Date: Fri, Apr 13, 2001 at 10:51:24 (GMT)
From: Ulf
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Can i also sing Arti,? nt.
Message:
o
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Date: Wed, Apr 11, 2001 at 22:08:37 (GMT)
From: Kelly
Email: None
To: Ulf
Subject: How can i ever trust my judgement again?
Message:
Thanks Ulf,
I'm just learning to live with uncertainty!
Isn't it so very much better than that awful BELIEF SYSTEM that we thought we didn't have?
It's such a sad joke, but at least I'm laughing!
All the very best to you, my virtual friend,
Kelly
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Date: Wed, Apr 11, 2001 at 23:23:09 (GMT)
From: Ulf
Email: None
To: Kelly
Subject: How can i ever trust my judgement again?
Message:
Yes it is much better now
But it is strange ,that you feel like a naked bird.
when you first walk away

how could anything that was the final truth, make you be left
with so much fear.?

But now i am also laughing.
( and crying )

Ulf

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Date: Thurs, Apr 12, 2001 at 18:23:24 (GMT)
From: Berni
Email: None
To: Ulf
Subject: How can i ever trust my judgement again?
Message:
Hello Jule and Ulf,
regarding trusting your judgement - I know just what you mean.
I can't believe I fell for it all and now am very careful about laying my view of life on anyone unless they ask for it - except for on this forum of course which seems a great place to air your views and, by getting some new opinions, re-inforce or be pursuaded to drop them.
Berni
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Date: Wed, Apr 11, 2001 at 16:46:05 (GMT)
From: bill
Email: None
To: Jule
Subject: The Decettes were great Jule.........nt
Message:
sdfhas
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Date: Wed, Apr 11, 2001 at 10:35:23 (GMT)
From: janet
Email: None
To: Jule
Subject: want a membership card? just tell this guy:
Message:
what the cards look like

be really annoying and flip your premie friend's noses with it.
I'm gonna laminate mine.

we still need a good back for em, now.

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Date: Wed, Apr 11, 2001 at 14:50:00 (GMT)
From: salam
Email: None
To: janet
Subject: Great mug shot janet.
Message:
you look lovely.
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Date: Wed, Apr 11, 2001 at 14:51:30 (GMT)
From: salam
Email: None
To: salam
Subject: I thought you were a skinny old fart
Message:
with tatered hair.
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Date: Wed, Apr 11, 2001 at 05:15:00 (GMT)
From: Richard
Email: post@rmi.net
To: Jule
Subject: Welcome Jule
Message:
I am also an IHQ veteran from 1973 - 1979 in the graphics department. I'm curious whether I know you so please feel free to email me with assurance of remaining anonymous if you wish. Otherwise, enjoy the show and please post more of your thoughts.

Richard Rogers

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Date: Wed, Apr 11, 2001 at 04:55:47 (GMT)
From: Babs
Email: ralphie@ralphiescafe.com
To: Jule
Subject: Hi everyone
Message:
Dear Jule,

Accent on the second syllable?
Weren't you a dancer/choreographer?
I'm happy for you.

Love.
Babs

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Date: Wed, Apr 11, 2001 at 06:57:33 (GMT)
From: janet schwartz
Email: None
To: julé
Subject: I went to your wedding in denver-the 1st one!
Message:
i know who you are, now! i recall there being a reception up in the mountains at some guys cabin with a wraparound balcony and a steep driveway. i also remember getting drunk for the first time since high school at the guy's bar. it was ...1974? snow on the ground. 14th and Emerson church?
if i recall aright, the marriage didnt last the year? hhope i'm not embarassing you publically saying this out loud here. the moon's in sag and i'm probably being way too blunt out loud.
it's actually ok. you were known at IHQ and the denver community and the premie grapevine carried all news faster than email does now. it did your rep no harm that I ever discerned.
I looked up to you, regardless of the foibles of your life. I thought you made the right decision about it, all circumstances considered.

what a kick to have you aboard! you gonna pop in here much and post? bring us reports from the front?

ahem!
brother, get this woman a GetSmart card at once!
Julé, we need a picture--in email or on the web (only if you want to put one up) so our enterprising fellow in the department can whip you up an official membership card of EPO.
you pick your own background color, own pic and your own favored ID number.

someone show Julé the gallery so she can decide if she wants to be an official card carrying member.

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Date: Wed, Apr 11, 2001 at 03:57:17 (GMT)
From: Tony(Aussi Ji)
Email: parisw@ozemail.com.au
To: Jule
Subject: Your initials would'nt happen to be
Message:
J.C would they?If they are and if you are an aussie,I know you.I hope it is Jule because if you are, your posts would encourage heaps of premies to join the ex premies.Congratulations Jule,welcome to freedom.

Cheers Tony.

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Date: Wed, Apr 11, 2001 at 04:07:16 (GMT)
From: Tony(Aussi Ji)
Email: parisw@ozemail.com.au
To: Jule
Subject: PS if they are.
Message:
your secret is safe with me.Mum will be the word.Promise,and hope to die.

Cheers Tony.

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Date: Wed, Apr 11, 2001 at 07:17:25 (GMT)
From: Tony(Aussi Ji)
Email: parisw@ozemail.com.au
To: Jule
Subject: Don't bother reading above two posts
Message:
I was mistaken.
Cheers Tony.
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Date: Wed, Apr 11, 2001 at 02:45:32 (GMT)
From: Deputy Dog
Email: None
To: Jule
Subject: Hi everyone
Message:
Hi Jule,

I'm a premie and I tell fellow premies about this site. I even phone them to keep them up-to-date. Why? Because although I believe in faith, I think it should be an informed faith.

Do we have anything to fear from any of this? No! G-d (not the concept of God) is in charge and everyone will get their karmuppance. If you follow your heart nothing will happen to you, you are protected.

As long as our actions are pure, we are safe. Enough sermonizing for now.

Amaroo should be very interesting!

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Date: Wed, Apr 11, 2001 at 02:32:10 (GMT)
From: Deputy Dog
Email: None
To: Jule
Subject: Hi everyone
Message:
I have been reading here for a few months and it has really changed my life. Of all people, a PWK, somebody who is a devout premie, told me about this website. It seems all the premies know about it and lots of them talk about it. I think most of them lurk around here frequently, but wouldn't admit it. I asked other premies if they know about it, and they all did -- every one of them.
------------------------------------------------
Hi Jule,

I too consider myself a premie and I also tell people about this site. I've even phoned premie friends to keep them up-to-date about the Dettmers revelations for example.

Why? Because I believe we should have faith, but it should be an informed faith. I'm glad this stuff is coming out. Amaroo should be interesting.

I believe each person gets their own karmuppance.

Listen yourself and be honest with yourself. If you follow your own heart you are protected.

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Date: Wed, Apr 11, 2001 at 02:52:42 (GMT)
From: Deputy Dog
Email: None
To: Deputy Dog
Subject: Sorry first post didn't show up so I re-posted (nt
Message:
afj
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Date: Wed, Apr 11, 2001 at 02:42:17 (GMT)
From: Selene
Email: None
To: Deputy Dog
Subject: informed faith?
Message:
That's a good one Dep. you could write for eV!
Can you explain to me why informed faith is NOT an oxymoron?
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Date: Wed, Apr 11, 2001 at 02:59:06 (GMT)
From: Deputy Dog
Email: None
To: Selene
Subject: informed faith?
Message:
Good one Selene,

I believe in being both left and right hemisphere, logical and intuitive. At least as best as I can.

I'm not one of those new-age guys who throw the rational mind into the garbage and live totally in spirit.

And I'm also not one of those old-age guys who worship the 'golden calf' of the rational mind. A nice balance is always good. Why do anything half-assed.

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Date: Fri, Apr 13, 2001 at 18:02:31 (GMT)
From: Nigel
Email: None
To: Deputy Dog
Subject: Did you see my post below...?
Message:
Hi Dep, I took the trouble to dig out a well-referenced argument on why it is a nonsense to think in terms of 'left brain/right brain' people. Did you read it? Any thoughts?

And OF COURSE 'informed faith' is an oxymoron (BTW: good question Selene). In trying to answer it further down this thread you effectively concede that point when you say faith apllies to areas where you don't know the answers, where you are thus uninformed, surely..? (I suspect you DO appreciate your error, even if you're not going to conceded it when talking to Jim...;)

Anyway, no harm can come from applying one's mind to such questions, provided you do it honestly and don't fear to wander into areas the guru wouldn't like you to go.

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Date: Wed, Apr 11, 2001 at 03:57:40 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Deputy Dog
Subject: By the way, Dog, you didn't answer Selene's q
Message:
Just thought I'd mention that you've side-stepped Selene's question which was:

'Can you explain to me why informed faith is NOT an oxymoron?'

If you're careful about this and don't just throw a bunch of words at it, that is, if you really think about the question, I think you'll realize the problem. Faith IS, by its very nature, uninformed. That's why its faith. Go ahead, look it up.

But let's look at your original post again:

I'm a premie and I tell fellow premies about this site. I even phone them to keep them up-to-date. Why? Because although I believe in faith, I think it should be an informed faith.

It sounds as if you're trying to play some sort of 'I-can-handle-anything' game. Why do you think premies should know all the dirt about Maharaji? First, you just have to assume he's dead set against it. He would hate the fact that you're calling up other premies and turning them on to the truth about him. Does that bother you at all? What kind of premie are you to betray him like that? I guess it sure pays to hid behind a cartoon character these days, doesn't it? Is this how you intend to carry on, with this secret hypocrisy? Likewise, when you do call premies and tell them about what you've learned here, do you tell them that you're none other than 'Deputy Dog'? Why not?

Do we have anything to fear from any of this? No! G-d (not the concept of God) is in charge and everyone will get their karmuppance.

What are you talking about? Are you suggesting that Maharaji's also susceptible to this 'law' you believe in? Is HE going to get HIS karmuppance? Do you secretly hate the fuck out of him? Are you looking for some way out of this that doesn't call for an actual decision on your part?

If you follow your heart nothing will happen to you, you are protected.

Hey, you're one of the guys that used to talk about how few spiritual 'concepts' you have, right? What happened? Anyway, it does sound like you're jamming the airwaves, Dog. Let me ask you this, is there ANYTHING you could ever learn about Maharaji that might finally force you to say that you're not, in fact, a premie? What? Does your own lack of moral limits bother you at all? What if YOU were Abi's father? What if it was one of YOUR daughters who'd been molested by Jagdeo? What would YOU expect of Maharaji -- fuck EV, it's Maharaji we're talking about -- in the circumstances?

As long as our actions are pure, we are safe.

Safe from what? The truth?

Enough sermonizing for now.

Aw, what a shame. You mean you've got more of that deep wisdom? Wow.

Amaroo should be very interesting!

Are you going? Why do you think it'll be 'interesting'? Again, are you secretly hoping for Maharaji's demise so you can walk out without having to partake in a jail break? Sure sounds like it.

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Date: Thurs, Apr 12, 2001 at 01:53:27 (GMT)
From: Deputy Dog
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: I answered the question and more
Message:
Hi Jim,

Whenever I have a dialogue with you, I always have this overwhelming feeling that I’m being harassed and cross-examined and it’s not a pleasant feeling.

In any event we’ve been through a lot of this before. I didn’t buy into a lot of the ashram concepts you had. So a lot of the concepts you are now trying to destroy or discredit, I never had, never! Most of the time you aren’t arguing with me but with yourself.

I answered Selene’s question about faith or belief. Let me explain further by saying that I make a distinction between what I know and what I don’t know. What I don’t know I put into the realm of faith or belief. What I do know I put into the realm if intellect.

Unlike you Jim, I am willing to admit that I don’t know everything. I am willing to accept some things about life that I can’t figure out and have no way of knowing, on faith. Why, because I simply don’t know.

I tell fellow premies about EPO because I think they have a right to know about M’s behavior. And like Clinton and Jackson, obviously M is not happy about people finding out about his stuff. Is that betrayal or simply reporting the facts? Do premies have the right to know about the character of their “Master?” IMO they have the right to an informed choice.

In fact most of the stuff reported here about M, his drinking and womanizing, his seeming lack of concern for others, the FAQs on Elan Vital, and his profligate lifestyle is sad.

IMO a premie is both a lover of both Truth and the truth, (and I know you won’t understand that distinction, it’s for the other exes) and it is Maharaji who is being hypocritical. I am being honest. If he hadn’t done the things reported on this site there would be nothing to say. And yes, I believe that people are susceptible to karma, or more exactly I “choose” to believe that. If the concept of karma is a lie it’s a useful lie.

I will always be a premie. As you know premie means lover of Truth, and IMO there is a big difference between a premie and just a Person With Knowledge. I have always made the distinction between M and my experience of K and I will always do my best to be loyal to the Truth inside, always. That’s where my loyalty is! Truth is within and is unchanging. The truth is without and can change.

As far as Amaroo goes, I won’t be there, and all I can say is let the chips fall where they may. Laissez faire! Hope you’re okay with that.

As for my faith, I like Buddhism which is definitely old-age (2,600 years old to be exact). I drifted into becoming a Buddhist just as you drifted into becoming an atheist. Hope you’re okay with that.

I’m also willing to admit that the left-brain right-brain theory is now being discredited. I find it a useful metaphor though, for the I-It and the I-Thou, for the phenomenon and noumenon, for the yin and yang, the conscious mind and the subconscious mind, for the heart and the intellect. It’s a useful way to describe those two parts of ourselves.

I know you deny having that second part. But hey, if you want to ignore your original nature and go through life worshipping the golden calf of the rational mind, fine by me. I’ll help myself to the best of both worlds. Hope you’re okay with that.

It was good to see the pictures of you and your lady. Laurie is quite the babe and you are looking well. May you both continue to be happy and successful.

I'm going to take a break for while. In fact I think I'd prefer having root canal work done than continue with this so called dialogue.

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Date: Thurs, Apr 12, 2001 at 04:47:36 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Deputy Dog
Subject: Thank God for cross-examination
Message:
Hi Jim,
Whenever I have a dialogue with you, I always have this overwhelming feeling that I’m being harassed and cross-examined and it’s not a pleasant feeling.

The feeling of being harrassed is just the effect of straining against the import of the question. Everyone bitches about being 'cross-examined'. Let's look at this, 'kay? What is it to cross-examine?. Oxford says it is to 'examine (esp. a witness in a law court) to check or extend testimony already given.' Hm, that's an interesting defintion. Makes you think a bit, doesn't it? You know what it makes me think? This: that people who object to being 'cross-examined' just don't want to have their words well-considered. They just like to say shit but don't really want to stand by it. What do you think? Why else would people not want to have their words 'checked'?

Anyway, I'll show you what I mean.

In any event we’ve been through a lot of this before. I didn’t buy into a lot of the ashram concepts you had. So a lot of the concepts you are now trying to destroy or discredit, I never had, never! Most of the time you aren’t arguing with me but with yourself.

Yes, you've said this before but, like so much else you say, it doesn't stand up well under close scrutiny. In that respect, you're just like the guy or gal who wrote those lying FAQ's for EV. Believe me, they don't want to be cross-examined either. Why, you literally can't find them. They're faceless, nameless liars. You, on the other hand, have a name, right? You're Deputy Dog and your word really stands for something .....(?)

I answered Selene’s question about faith or belief. Let me explain further by saying that I make a distinction between what I know and what I don’t know. What I don’t know I put into the realm of faith or belief. What I do know I put into the realm if intellect.

This is pretty confused. Some things you don't know you may still believe, but surely not all. Yet, look what you just said: what you don't know you 'put in the realm of faith or belief'. What's that supposed to mean? This is very sloppy verbiage, Dog. So if this is where you're at, talking this way, I could see why you resent having your words 'checked'. It might force you to think better and that doesn't seem to interest you.

Unlike you Jim, I am willing to admit that I don’t know everything.

Bullshit! I am willing to admit that I don't know everything. There! Satisfied?

I am willing to accept some things about life that I can’t figure out and have no way of knowing, on faith. Why, because I simply don’t know.

Terrible, terrible confusion you got going there, Dog. Do you mind if we actually look at this? You've actually just said that your reason for believing certain things, things you could never really prove or understand, is that you don't know them. You accept things on faith because you don't know them. What kind of nonsense is that? You don't know a lot of things. Do you then believe them all? How ridiculous!

I tell fellow premies about EPO because I think they have a right to know about M’s behavior.

Do you also tell them that you post here yourself? That you're Deputy Dog? Do you tell them that? I asked you before but you didn't answer. Again, more cross-examination, this time combing through past 'testimony' to see if you answered what was asked. Okay, you didn't. You didn't answer my question as to whether or not you tell premies who you are. Now, how does this make you feel? Do you resent the fact that I'm not letting you simply side-step the issue?

And like Clinton and Jackson, obviously M is not happy about people finding out about his stuff. Is that betrayal or simply reporting the facts?

False dichotomy, isn't it? You could be simply reporting the facts and still be 'betraying' Maharaji, couldn't you? Come on, Dog, deal with it! Do you or don't you think that you're betraying him? If you don't, do you think he'd agree? When does your own hypocrisy become an issue?

Do premies have the right to know about the character of their “Master?” IMO they have the right to an informed choice.

Not that I'm going to but, as a thought experiment, how would you like it if I posted your name? What do you think the EV monitors would do? You're one of the regular premie posters here and now you're saying that you think premies should know all this shit about Maharaji. You know there's no air of reality to any concern you might have for your physical safety. You're small potatoes compared to the Mikes for instance. You must know that. So what possible justification could you have for anonymously taking a stand that you know Maharaji would be very angry with? Where's your own integrity, John (oops! -- just kidding, but you get the point.)

In fact most of the stuff reported here about M, his drinking and womanizing, his seeming lack of concern for others, the FAQs on Elan Vital, and his profligate lifestyle is sad.

Agreed. But it's not just sad, is it? It's a bit worse than that, I'm afraid. What other words might you use to describe your Master's character?

IMO a premie is both a lover of both Truth and the truth, (and I know you won’t understand that distinction, it’s for the other exes) and it is Maharaji who is being hypocritical.

I'm sorry but I think you're in no position to be calling anyone else a hypocrite. You're in a position where you can run with the wolves and sleep with the sheep. Lover of Truth, Deputy Dog?

I am being honest. If he hadn’t done the things reported on this site there would be nothing to say. And yes, I believe that people are susceptible to karma, or more exactly I “choose” to believe that. If the concept of karma is a lie it’s a useful lie.

Too bad you have such a tenuous interest in reality. In any event, I dare you to email Maharaji and tell him the above. Not with an anonymous hotmail account under the name 'Deputy Dog' but as Tony ... oh, shit, I did it again!

I will always be a premie.

Yes, but will you always be Deputy Dog?

As you know premie means lover of Truth, and IMO there is a big difference between a premie and just a Person With Knowledge. I have always made the distinction between M and my experience of K and I will always do my best to be loyal to the Truth inside, always. That’s where my loyalty is! Truth is within and is unchanging. The truth is without and can change.

Yes, but there are people in the world too and, as you know, some of your fellow cult members might be forgiven for thinking that you are actually loyal to Maharaji. Are you? Tell us about it. Talk about your loyalty -- or lack of it -- to Maharaji.

As far as Amaroo goes, I won’t be there, and all I can say is let the chips fall where they may. Laissez faire! Hope you’re okay with that.

You avoided my questions entirely. How many times did I ask you in that last post if you weren't secretly waiting for the cult to break down so far that you didn't have to walk away, it just fell apart around you? Why didn't you answer that? You're very evasive for a 'lover of Truth', Dog. I'm not impressed. Are you?

As for my faith, I like Buddhism which is definitely old-age (2,600 years old to be exact). I drifted into becoming a Buddhist just as you drifted into becoming an atheist. Hope you’re okay with that.

Don't fuck with the term 'new age'. For you to be a Buddhist is new age. I don't care how old Buddhism is, that's not the point. What's so new age about you is the way you just dabble in all these little ideas, without any critical standards. And no, that's not just something I 'choose' to believe.

I’m also willing to admit that the left-brain right-brain theory is now being discredited. I find it a useful metaphor though, for the I-It and the I-Thou, for the phenomenon and noumenon, for the yin and yang, the conscious mind and the subconscious mind, for the heart and the intellect. It’s a useful way to describe those two parts of ourselves.

See? You're all make-believe. Too bad.

I know you deny having that second part. But hey, if you want to ignore your original nature and go through life worshipping the golden calf of the rational mind, fine by me. I’ll help myself to the best of both worlds. Hope you’re okay with that.

What offends me almsot as much as it bemuses me is your typical new age way of projecting religious bullshit where it just doesn't fit. I don't 'worship' the rational mind, not unless you want to fuck with the word 'worship' too. But that's the best you can do, isn't it?

It was good to see the pictures of you and your lady. Laurie is quite the babe and you are looking well. May you both continue to be happy and successful.

Thanks. No jokes. I'm glad you feel that way. With any luck, we will.

I'm going to take a break for while. In fact I think I'd prefer having root canal work done than continue with this so called dialogue.

This 'so-called dialogue' is my gift to you. Too bad you can't appreciate it.

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Date: Fri, Apr 13, 2001 at 03:51:31 (GMT)
From: Deputy Dog
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Thank God for God!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Message:
Jim,

I really think you are starting to lose it.

Harassment is obnoxious behavior. Why not define that? It means to vex by repeated attacks, to exhaust, to fatigue, to persistently annoy.

You didn’t address my question about you arguing with yourself.

My words are fine.

Admitting to not knowing things is not terrible confusion. Thinking you know everything is terrible confusion and despite what you say, you are a know it all.

I do tell some of my premie friends that I post here as Deputy Dog.

You say, “You could be simply reporting the facts and still be 'betraying' Maharaji, couldn't you?” What? I don’t think I’m betraying him? The stuff posted here is public knowledge. And guess what Jim, it wasn’t me! I didn’t do it.

I choose to be anonymous because of family reasons, my wife is still into M and K big time, and I have premie friends I don’t want to alienate.

I said my reaction to M’s behavior was one of sadness and I meant “sad.” I didn’t use sad to describe his character. There you go twisting words again.

You claim I have a tenuous interest in reality? What? You have a tenuous interest in Reality with a capital R. All you know is words and argument. I’m a soul man.

You say, “Yes, but will you always be Deputy Dog?” No, I will not always be Deputy Dog? Will you always be Jim Heller?

I am loyal to the experience inside, and worship G-d, (although technically Buddhists do not believe in G-d.) To thine own Self be true. If M falls that’s his problem not mine. I didn’t do it!

Despite all my previous posts trying to help you, you still don’t understand about the distinction between the truth and Truth?

You say, “For you to be a Buddhist is new age?” What the fuck do you mean by that?

You say, “What's so new age about you is the way you just dabble in all these little ideas, without any critical standards.” What? You mean I don’t think like you?

You say, “What offends me almost as much as it bemuses me is your typical new age way of projecting religious bullshit where it just doesn't fit.” For you Jim, everything associated with religion is bullshit.

In closing Jim, I think you are starting to lose it. There is a lot of weird thinking from you here. Not logical, there is no attempt to understand what I’m saying, my words are twisted, my ideas are deliberately misrepresented.

So sorry, but I just can’t appreciate or accept your wonderful “gift of dialogue.” Would you mind if I returned it and kept the money?

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Date: Fri, Apr 13, 2001 at 04:07:03 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Deputy Dog
Subject: COULD WE HAVE A REFEREE HERE PLEASE?
Message:
Anyone interested in taking a look at this recent exchange between Dog and me. What do you think? Am I losing it? Is Dog loosing it? Anyone?
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Date: Fri, Apr 13, 2001 at 09:39:46 (GMT)
From: JHB
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: A Referee Writes:-
Message:
No Jim, you're not losing it, but you are wasting your time. Clear rational thought is not something Dog is interested in. He has his religion, and it's a brave or foolhardy man who challenges someone's religion.

John.

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Date: Fri, Apr 13, 2001 at 08:12:59 (GMT)
From: PatC
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Being right's one thing. Rubbing someone's nose in
Message:
it is another. I think you're doing it because you believe that it is the most honest thing to do. You may be doing it because it works well in the adversarial milieu of the courthouse or you may be doing it for the wrong reasons such as self-righteousness or vanity. I doubt the latter because you are obviously clever enough to see through your own vanity. Though there are a couple of people here who think you're not a saint.

I can't really referee because I don't have the patience to deal with New Age cliches - perhaps because I have flirted with them too much and seen the difficulties they get people into. I've lived in the New Age capital of the world for 22 years and absorbed it by osmosis, then reacted to it furiously in the 80s when it touched me personally in the simplistic, hypocritical and feel-good Jesse Jackson sanctions against South Africa which destroyed the economy. I nearly became a Republican but took up libertarianism instead.

New Age thought began with the introduction of ''spiritualism.'' This was a late 19th century off-shoot of the New Thought movement in New England. At the bottom end of the scale, talking to ghosts became popular. At the top, Mary Baker Eddy founded the now respectable Church of Christ, Scientist. This newfound fascination with the imagination opened up the doors to Theosophy, Krishanmurthi, Yoganand and later Meher Baba.

Now we have the whole New Age smorgasbord: astrology, crystals, UFOs, scrotal meditation, chanting on Mt Tamalpais to save whales, Shirley McClain and Maharajism. Jim, not everyone understands that it is intellectually lazy for a westerner to adopt Buddhism. Even I, who am an opera-lover and a believer that no culture holds a candle to the west, find yoga interesting.

Pop culture will absorb New Age thought and Coca-Cola will be sold with collectible sets of crystals. The Reagans had a personal astrologer. Curmudgeons and sticklers are outnumbered as they have always been. As I've said before, I think you're a saint, like that one who was determined to save the drowning scorpion even though it stung him again and again.

It's not a losing battle because sticklers always manage to maintain little outposts of civilization but I don't have the patience, like you, to talk to Dog and Sandy and have been rude to both of them and regretted it because they are both decent men. I just don't have the stomach for rubbing noses in accidents.

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Date: Fri, Apr 13, 2001 at 22:25:16 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: PatC
Subject: That's why they call him Deputy DOG (nt)
Message:
hhhhhh
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Date: Thurs, Apr 12, 2001 at 14:33:10 (GMT)
From: Lurker #27
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Jim, I don't BELIEEEEEVE it!!!!!!!!
Message:
Jim, I can't believe you actually said this, 'I am willing to admit that I don't know everything. There! Satisfied?'

Satisfied? No, I'm seriously taken aback! Shattered is more like it. Jeeze! Now I'm going to have to go and lie down.

First I find out about M, and now this!

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Date: Thurs, Apr 12, 2001 at 15:43:54 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Lurker #27
Subject: Are you Joey?
Message:
Who the hell are you, anyway? Like I need this, a bad joke from someone too afraid to post under their own name.
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Date: Thurs, Apr 12, 2001 at 16:03:20 (GMT)
From: Gerry
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: You'll like this Jim
Message:
(snicker)
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Date: Fri, Apr 13, 2001 at 17:49:26 (GMT)
From: Nigel
Email: None
To: Gerry
Subject: Great link, Gerry. I've bookmarked it (nt)
Message:
nt
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Date: Wed, Apr 11, 2001 at 04:02:39 (GMT)
From: Selene
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: and Dep my handy dandy online dic says
Message:
(I suppose you could squeak by with number four but the others don't quite get into the informed faith thing much IMO.)

The noun faith has 4 senses (first 4 from tagged texts)

1. religion, faith, religious belief -- (a strong belief in a supernatural power or powers that control human destiny; 'he lost his faith but not his morality')

2. faith, trust -- (complete confidence in a person or plan etc; 'he cherished the faith of a good woman'; 'the doctor-patient relationship is based on trust')

3. religion, faith -- (institution to express belief in a divine power; 'he was raised in the Baptist religion'; 'a member of his own faith contradicted him')

4. faith -- (loyalty or allegiance to a cause or a person; 'keep the faith'; 'they broke faith with their investors')

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Date: Wed, Apr 11, 2001 at 04:26:52 (GMT)
From: Selene
Email: None
To: ps
Subject: but then again if you picked number 4
Message:
And gave any credence to what has been posted about M here, how could you not 'break faith'
Informed faith the way you used it in your post still not making sense Dep. Sorry.
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Date: Thurs, Apr 12, 2001 at 02:30:35 (GMT)
From: Deputy Dog
Email: None
To: Selene
Subject: Selene - but then again if I picked number 4
Message:
Selene,

Forget about M. If you have experienced what used to called Holy Name (and I'm sure you have) how could you break faith with that?

To have experienced the life force and found a way to harmonize with it is to find your true nature. How can you break faith with your Self?

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Date: Thurs, Apr 12, 2001 at 22:57:40 (GMT)
From: Selene
Email: None
To: Deputy Dog
Subject: Why do I need M for any of that? nt
Message:
nt
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Date: Fri, Apr 13, 2001 at 03:35:14 (GMT)
From: Deputy dog
Email: None
To: Selene
Subject: Why do I need M for any of that? You don't!
Message:
Be your own unique self. That's all God wants from you.
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Date: Wed, Apr 11, 2001 at 03:19:59 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Deputy Dog
Subject: Left brain, right brain? You can't be serious
Message:
Sounds pretty new age to me, Dog. That left brain / right brain idea is completely dumb. No one talks tath way anymore except .....that's right, Dog. You're busted.

You're a NEW AGE Deputy Dog, no getting around it.

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Date: Wed, Apr 11, 2001 at 04:29:32 (GMT)
From: Deputy Dog
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Left brain, right brain? I am serious!
Message:
Yes I am serious. Neurosurgeons talk about different parts and halfs of the brain having different functions. Read up on it if you like.

It's all a question of balance Jim, between spirit and intellect. But if you don't believe in Spirit (I honestly don't see how you couldn't after 8 years in an ashram doing two hours of meditation a day) but hey, if you don't in spirit, then go and live in your intellect. Put all your eggs in that basket.

Live in that limited way if you wish. Ignore that peaceful and spacious part of you. Don't bother me none!

And Jim, unlike you, I hardly ever think about M. Not the bahkti type. I thought you knew that.

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Date: Wed, Apr 11, 2001 at 11:18:57 (GMT)
From: Nigel
Email: nigel@redcrow.demon.co.uk
To: Deputy Dog
Subject: A little knowledge is a dangerous thing..?
Message:
Hi Dog,

I think Jim's right that new-agers and pop-psychologists have completely misrepresented the question of hemisphericity. You should maybe note the bits I have emphasized in the following passage.
>>>>>

'For some theorists, the verbal-spatial distinction defines the difference in the functioning of the two cerebral hemispheres, with the left hemisphere the 'linguist,' and the right hemisphere the 'map maker.' This model neatly fits the fact that performance on the various verbal tests is more impaired by lesions to the left hemisphere, while performance on spatial tests is more impaired by lesions to the right hemisphere (Levy, 1974). But other theorists suggest that the distinction between the hemispheres must be conceived differently. In their view, the right hemisphere is specialized for the organization of space, whereas the left hemisphere's speciality is organization in time. Thus, if language functions are found more in the left hemisphere, it is not because of a specialization for language per se. Rather, it is because language, like many other functions, depends crucially on precisely timed sequences of elements. The person who is insensitive to what comes first and what comes second cannot possibly speak or understand the speech of others. Tap is not the same word as pat, and the sentence 'The dog bit the man' is crucially different from 'The man bit the dog.' To summarize this view, the right hemisphere is more concerned with what goes where, the left more with what comes when (Bogen, 1969; Tzeng and Wang, 1984).

Although the space versus time hypothesis is rather speculative, it fits in well enough with the facts we have described in this chapter. The same is not true of the many accounts written for the general public. Some authors go so far as to equate left-hemispheric function with western science and right-hemispheric function with eastern culture and mysticism. In the same vein, others have argued that western societies overly encourage left-brained functions at the expense of right-brained functions and that we need special efforts to train the neglected right hemisphere (e.g., Ornstein, 1977). One author recommends 'Ten Ways to Develop Your Right Brain,' one of which involves drowning out the presentation of information with music (Prince, 1978, cited in Springer and Deutsch, 1998). There is, however, no persuasive evidence for any of these popular claims. In many cases, the distinctions being proposed-between the rational and the intuitive, the analytic and the artistic, or between western and eastern philosophies of life-are not so clear cut. In other cases, the distinctions fit badly with, or go wildly beyond, the available evidence. And even if these distinctions are sometimes useful, there is little reason to believe that each mode corresponds to the functioning of one of the brain hemispheres. After all, despite the mythic appeal of two modes of thinking, there may turn out to be five, or ten, or a hundred modes of thought, and this obviously would not map neatly onto the two hemispheres (Levy, 1985; Efron, 1990).

The popular misconceptions are particularly misleading when they imply that the two cerebral hemispheres, each with its own talents and strategies, endlessly vie for control of our mental life. Instead, each of us has a single brain. Each part of the brain (and not just the cerebral hemispheres) is quite differentiated and so contributes its own specialized abilities to the activity of the whole. But in the end, the marvelously complex, extraordinarily sophisticated skills that we each display depend on the whole brain and on the coordinated actions of all these components. Our hemispheres ate not cerebral competitors. Instead, they pool their specialized capacities to produce a seamlessly integrated single mental self. [my emphases]
(Gleitman, Fridlund & Reisberg, 1999)

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Date: Wed, Apr 11, 2001 at 04:45:51 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Deputy Dog
Subject: Wrong again, Dog
Message:
Neurosurgeons talk about different parts and halfs of the brain having different functions. Read up on it if you like.

I have and your silly idea of 'left brain' or 'right brain' people is a blowout. Sorry but that's the way it is. Read up on it if you like.

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Date: Wed, Apr 11, 2001 at 01:36:48 (GMT)
From: Selene
Email: None
To: Jule
Subject: did we marry the same guy?
Message:
I just posted that about my husband in a thread below to 'david'.
Anyway, thought it was funny.
But I don't have any premie friends to needle, thankfully.
Seems some ex's can't understand why some of us hung around so long.
I thought G's answer was fairly accurate, funny too. I am SO GLAD TO BE OUT!!!!!
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Date: Wed, Apr 11, 2001 at 00:13:43 (GMT)
From: Roger eDrek
Email: drek@oz.net
To: Jule
Subject: Hi everyone
Message:
going to programs, watching videos (which are more vacant and boring than watching paint dry)

Yes, that was me too. I was really giving Knowledge a chance again in the 90s through regular attendance of videos and programs and giving money. There was a moment or two of renewed excitement, but after the local video novelty wore off the videos were really boring and Maharaji is the same big cosmic tease that he's always been and he isn't that interesting once you grow up a little bit.

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Date: Wed, Apr 11, 2001 at 00:34:14 (GMT)
From: Pat Conlon
Email: None
To: Roger eDrek
Subject: I went back for one year, 2000, and that was it
Message:
I felt so enthusiastic when I was told about the new ''team'' concept that I decided to go back and help withthe local videos etc. That lasted for a few weeks and it just got worse from there on.

I suppose that it didn't help that I could not view things in quite the same way after someone told me about the Jagdeo scandal and then, once I read your site, the cult began to look more and more like the Monty Python Show.

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Date: Tues, Apr 10, 2001 at 23:39:35 (GMT)
From: suchabanana
Email: None
To: Jule
Subject: Hi Jule! We were all such bananas!Peace+lentils(nt
Message:
nt
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Date: Tues, Apr 10, 2001 at 23:47:45 (GMT)
From: PatC
Email: None
To: suchabanana
Subject: Swami Ji, people who are born in Natal/kwaZulu
Message:
are know as Banana Boys. That's me. But I'm a real tropical fruit. Maybe a guava.
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Date: Wed, Apr 11, 2001 at 06:22:19 (GMT)
From: janet
Email: None
To: PatC
Subject: i think you have appeal/a peel,,,nt
Message:
day o
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Date: Wed, Apr 11, 2001 at 00:01:25 (GMT)
From: such
Email: None
To: PatC
Subject: Tangerine Dream? Strawberry Fields Alarm Clock!(nt
Message:
nt
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Date: Wed, Apr 11, 2001 at 01:13:54 (GMT)
From: Joe
Email: None
To: such
Subject: Surrealistic Pillow Fight in Carolina on my mind?n
Message:
nt
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Date: Wed, Apr 11, 2001 at 00:19:18 (GMT)
From: PatC
Email: None
To: such
Subject: Hey MrTangerine Man, call me mellow-yellow(nt
Message:
g
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Date: Wed, Apr 11, 2001 at 05:06:28 (GMT)
From: DeProGram Anand Ji
Email: SharkDC@AOL.com
To: PatC
Subject: Quite Rightly...What a long strange trip it's been
Message:
nt
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Date: Wed, Apr 11, 2001 at 00:36:59 (GMT)
From: such
Email: None
To: PatC
Subject: I'm just Wild about Saffron! incense/peppermint...
Message:
e-Lec-tri-cal ba-Nan-a!

which way to Carnaby St., mate? Gee, what are all these people doing parading with those 'Lord of the Universe' signs? What gives, anyway? 'The Gods Must Be Crazy'!! Only mad dogs and Englishmen in the Kalahari...

Peace and lentils,

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Date: Wed, Apr 11, 2001 at 00:47:13 (GMT)
From: PatC
Email: None
To: such
Subject: I was hoping you'd say that
Message:
I'm just mad about Saffron my Aussie Sheepdog. She is the only one of five dogs who is an adept at ahimsa and she absolutely adores every living creature. A true saint. I named her after the daughter in ''Absolutely Fabulous.''
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Date: Wed, Apr 11, 2001 at 01:38:50 (GMT)
From: such
Email: None
To: PatC
Subject: but is she fed vegetarian ahimsa? curious...(nt
Message:
nt
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Date: Wed, Apr 11, 2001 at 03:06:13 (GMT)
From: PatC
Email: None
To: such
Subject: Omnivore - too old to retrain when i got her(nt)
Message:
j
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Date: Tues, Apr 10, 2001 at 23:28:00 (GMT)
From: Pat Conlon
Email: None
To: Jule
Subject: Hi Jule, good to have you here NT
Message:
j
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Date: Tues, Apr 10, 2001 at 23:25:59 (GMT)
From: Disculta Darling
Email: None
To: Jule
Subject: Welcome, and some questions
Message:
Glad that you are here, and that the forum has helped. Could I interrogate you a bit (in a completely friendly way)? I'm really curious about fringe premie life, after the level of involvement that you described.

How does one go from initiator candidate to occasional, bored video watcher without feeling something is weird here?

I was a full-on go-all-the-way premie like you described yourself. He was my lord, and I was part of his world-saving team. When this was clearly no longer the case, I was pretty soon outa there. There were so many other much more interesting things to explore, including 'spiritually.' I can imagine (perhaps) getting into the fringe version if you come in at that level, but I just can't imagine the internal process of going from gung-ho to fringe without leaving. I know thousands of people have done this shift and it's probably the majority experience - even among exes here, but it just occurred to me to ask you this. Also asking anyone else, including some of you very new exes. What was it like to go from 100 mph to 10 mph and still be 'in?'

love Disculta Darling

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Date: Tues, Apr 10, 2001 at 23:58:32 (GMT)
From: Joe
Email: None
To: Disculta Darling
Subject: I have the same question
Message:
It's the thing I find most baffling about people who hung around all those years. I have never been able to figure out how somebody made the transition from the ultimate, to the 'nice.' It never has made any sense to me.
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Date: Wed, Apr 11, 2001 at 00:33:18 (GMT)
From: G
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: the transition from the ultimate to the 'nice'
Message:
I made that transition, and I still can't figure out how I did it. It was a weird experience.

Somehow you have to hold conflicting beliefs in your head. I guess the idea is that in 'Maharaji's world', nothing has to make sense or be logical because it's such a mystical far-out place. I held on to the belief that even though he isn't God like he said he was, somehow he's enlightened anyway. I guess I chose not to think about what kind of confusion or whatever could have caused him to claim to be God.

Later I heard him say that he didn't know how the techniques work and 'I don't know' when asked what happens when you die. So ok, he's not enlightened, but he's a lot more than I am. Why I still thought even that I don't know. Habit?

Then I heard him recite poetry in a way that would make the Vogons cringe, particularly when he hoarsely wispered like he was talking to, and thereby torturing, a baby, so ok I thought, maybe not, but he's two steps ahead of me. Huh? Maybe low self esteem.

Then I heard him bray like a donkey and call it singing; my speed on approaching the exit greatly increased.

Then I paid $45 to hear him insinuate, via the king and the golden bowl analogy, that he was the messiah, the only way, and that I was basically a piece of shit, the begger. All this while looking like he had a hangover, and I hadn't heard any of the stories of his drinking. He was also in front of a statue of Don Quixote, which seemed odd. At this point the cognitive dissonance became too great and I was out.

How do people believe that the Bible is the Word of God when clearly there are contradictory statements in it? Someone at my work believes that everything in the Bible is literally true, including two angels guarding the doors to the Garden of Eden, and they had swords. That's right, swords. I would have tried to have a discussion with her, but I couldn't get a word in edge-wise.

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Date: Thurs, Apr 12, 2001 at 01:49:18 (GMT)
From: Jerry
Email: None
To: G
Subject: the transition from the ultimate to the 'nice'
Message:
That was good, G, (and amusing, if I might add) and I think you hit on a real important point, which is why do people continue to believe in spite of the evidence for why they no longer should? My own 'neurological' theory is that some people just don't 'rewire' quite as readily as others do. You see the evidence, but something just doesn't register, the transistors that should turn on, don't, the neurons that should rearrange themselves to the new data for a new model of reality, stay put. It's like Lemmings. They see the cliff ahead, but nothing enters their minds that they should stop before they run over it, and over they go, because all they know is to keep running in formation, nothing else.
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Date: Thurs, Apr 12, 2001 at 18:51:02 (GMT)
From: G
Email: None
To: Jerry
Subject: Perhaps...
Message:
That could be a factor for some people.

Some other possible factors are
1) not wanting to change
2) dishonesty
3) attachment
4) fear that leaving Rawat could open up a can of worms,
in terms of questioning all of one's beliefs. You know
we have different opinions on beliefs, but I agree that
questioning beliefs as a good thing. Not being willing
to question one's beliefs is a sign of insecurity about
them.
5) feeling that leaving Rawat means that one must stop
meditating completely, whereas it's really an individual
desision. I wonder if anyone in a hatha yoga cult feels
that if they leave their guru that they must stop
stretching. Sounds silly. Plenty of people stretch, and
they don't have a guru.

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Date: Wed, Apr 11, 2001 at 01:23:34 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: G
Subject: That's quite funny, G (and a half-baked theory!)
Message:
It's all good but 'particularly when he hoarsely wispered like he was talking to, and thereby torturing, a baby' made me smile out loud.

So here's a theory as to why long-time premies were able to slide so easily into blithe superficiality. Maybe it's just a function of their getting tired trying to be so darn 'heavy' all the time. All those early years of really trying to scale the wall, so to speak. It gets old. Then you look around and see no one else even trying anymore, or the few that do looking pretty fucking weird. What's that? Can't relate anymore? Welcome to the club.

And getting older would fit in there too, I imagine. We brought our youthful enthusiasm to the cult which stoked our fires immeasurably. But youthful enthusiasm fades, no matter what you're doing, and, if what you're doing includes being a cult member, you're bound to see a change.

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Date: Wed, Apr 11, 2001 at 17:40:47 (GMT)
From: Joe
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Being thankful for not having to try so hard
Message:
I think that's a good point, Jim.

I recall in 1976 feeling relieved to some degree that we might be moving out of the heaviness into a period when it might be okay to stop repressing all desires, ambitions and worldly interests. I remember feeling like a sophisticated premie, almost, for doing the integration, albeit short lived, and some gratitude to Maharaji for lightening things up.

So, now, weired as it sounds, a premie might feel grateful to Maharaji, for not requiring satsang, or two hours of meditation, or ashrams, or vegetarianism, or communities. Now it's okay to have a relationship, a decent job, drink wine, and no more embarrassing talk about saving the world, perfect master, lord of the universe, etc. The relief overwhelms the obvious question about what all the religious heaviness was about if it can just be dropped without explanation. Instead, they are just grateful (and tired).

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Date: Wed, Apr 11, 2001 at 19:46:32 (GMT)
From: Disculta Darling
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: Being thankful for not having to try so hard
Message:
Yes, I can relate to this, too. But it's a bit Stockholm Syndromey, isn't it? Being grateful to your captors, or thanking someone when they stop standing on your foot.

Oh well.

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Date: Wed, Apr 11, 2001 at 20:08:59 (GMT)
From: Joe
Email: None
To: Disculta Darling
Subject: Being thankful for not having to try so hard
Message:
Yes, it all flows from the idea that Maharaji is the ultimate say in everything, be it lila, or agya, or deciding how things should be. So, if the cult gets less weird or knowledge-lite is easier to do, then they are grateful to him. Since they are psychologically bound to him whatever he does, they are grateful especially when he is less heavy.

But then, I think there are also many masochist premies who feel they deserve to be abused and punished, or yelled at, or belittled, by him, but that's kind of a different problem.

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Date: Wed, Apr 11, 2001 at 20:28:13 (GMT)
From: G
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: the crowded hut analogy
Message:
Rawat used to talk about an analogy in which some guy complained to someone (maybe his guru?) about his small hut. The guru character told him to put his ducks in the huts, the guy protested and complained more, so the guru told him to put his goats in the hut, etc. Finally he told him to put his cows in the hut. After that the guy just like, you know, freaked out and yelled at the guru. Then the guru told him to remove all his animals from the hut, and the guy now felt like the hut was spacious.

I don't remember when Rawat told this story, but it sounds like a bit of spin doctoring.

Years ago, a premie even recounted this story to me as a rationalization of Rawat's abuse and heaviness (the ashrams, satsang every night, yelling, etc.).

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Date: Wed, Apr 11, 2001 at 20:50:14 (GMT)
From: Joe
Email: None
To: G
Subject: the crowded hut analogy
Message:
I remember that story. But like a lot of stupid stories he told, that one seemed particularly pointless. I guess it was to just adjust your attitude and then everything is okay. It all depends on how you look at it, right? That's the essense of a cult if you as me. You just learn to adjust your perspective to say all that's bad is due to your mind, or possibily Maharaji teaching you a lesson, and hence it's actually really beautiful.

And then, of course, everything good is due to Maharaji. It's a closed system, completely circular and really based on the fear that life will become 'miserable' without him, and certainly there would be no way to rationalize everything that happens. It's like what someone was saying; what's the alternative? When you are in a close system, you can't see an alternative. You have to get out of it first, and that's why ex-premies and premies have such a hard time communicating. That's why someone as intelligent as Erika can go for years not asking the most basic, indeed necessary, questions.

BTW, I LOVE discussing the psychology of all this. It's much more interesting than any of the spiritual stuff, to me.

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Date: Wed, Apr 11, 2001 at 03:03:29 (GMT)
From: G
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: a half-baked theory
Message:
I think those are also factors.

Maybe another thing is long-time premies not knowing what else to do, not having 'an alternative'. More than one premie has posted a question like 'Do you have an alternative?' Like there has to be AN alternative, perhaps like they have to follow someone or some religion, looking for a simple answer, instead of embracing the complexity of life and trying to live well, which takes a lot more effort than what maharajism suggests. And perhaps there's a gut level factor of having to give up the emotional dependency on Rawat. It's a little like giving up a drug habit.

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Date: Wed, Apr 11, 2001 at 01:05:43 (GMT)
From: Joe
Email: None
To: G
Subject: The crux of the matter
Message:
I held on to the belief that even though he isn't God like he said he was, somehow he's enlightened anyway. I guess I chose not to think about what kind of confusion or whatever could have caused him to claim to be God.

This is the crux, isn't it? It's like when Erika was around here a couple of weeks ago feeling somewhat confronted by questions. She admitted that Maharaji claimed to be god, and then at some point stopped, and she had once believed it, but no longer did,m and she was to the point of hoping to get an explanation from him.

But the question I couldn't figure out why she wasn't asking, or apparently wasn't the least bit disturbed about this until just recently. Like, somehow she never got around to asking what is kind of the essential question: What kind of defective person IS Maharaji, that he could have been WRONG about something like that, and why would you even consider listening to somebody who was that screwed up? It just such a huge, huge, huge thing. Maybe SO huge, that the circuits overload and that's it. Maybe you have to take it in small pieces or 'drips' because it is too overwhelming to take it on all at once.

And then you compromise and adjust and you kind of forget about it. Maybe something like that.

Would love to hear more about the Don Quixote diatribe. When was that?

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Date: Wed, Apr 11, 2001 at 02:47:28 (GMT)
From: G
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: the Don Quixote diatribe
Message:
The Don Quixote diatribe was about a year ago, it was called a 'unique event' and was hyped heavily. It turned out to be a prerecorded broadcast, not live, and lasted only around 40 minutes total - for the entire event. I suppose it was from Rawat's Malibu mansion. He was sitting beside a very expensive looking piano, and in front of a painting of a bird flying above a wave and the Quixote statue. He seemed a bit ill at ease as he looked into the camera. There was something very strange about the way he was talking and his expression. Either I was seeing something I hadn't noticed before or he his performance was off. Come to think of it, many times his performance has been off, just consider 'Suck the rat!' I mean really.

I think what snapped for me was that I was trying to view him as a little bit enlightened, maybe worth listening to, maybe I can still learn a little from him, but he would have none of that. Oh no, according to his insinuation (though he didn't have the balls to come out and say it), he's the King who owns the Golden Bowl and everyone else is just a begger. A begger asks for the Bowl, the King gives it to him, but the idiot begger doesn't know what to do with it, so he gives it back to the King. Of course, if pressed about this, he could always claim he wasn't talking about himself, and the thing is, he would be right. But he certainly was feeding premies' false illusions about who he is.

Later on in the video he said something like 'enjoy it, even if you do it yourself', which seemed to contradict the analogy. Perhaps that was a cue to those seeing through the charade to 'leave'. I think this is something con men do, they only want people willing to be very gullible to be their victims, there's less risk that way.

Well I figured, fine, I'm outta here, this time for good.

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Date: Wed, Apr 11, 2001 at 01:46:58 (GMT)
From: Roy
Email: z
To: Joe
Subject: The crux of the matter
Message:
The crux or pivot point for me was... is he god or not??
If not- who the hell needs this ridiculous circus - complete
with meglomaniacal millionaire.. fuck him. This forum speaks
volumes to the question of his divinity. ( i think not watson.)

In one of rotguts recent satellite broadcasts which was highly touted ( he produced/directed/created/wrote music for/starred in
etc./etc.) a broadcast from his humble Malibu estate- showing
him as the gentle man about the house/ and lots of those ocean
wave shots/ a leisurly dad/god about the house with the kids etc.
He chose to do his indoor soliloquy with what appeared to be an
iron replica of picasso's Don Quixote (!!!) just in view behind
him... I've often wondered what the intended sybolism was meant
to say?? I guess the obvious- failed chivalry.

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Date: Wed, Apr 11, 2001 at 02:52:21 (GMT)
From: G
Email: None
To: Roy
Subject: Quixote
Message:
A premie recently posted about having a dream about Rawat being someone trying to accomplish an impossible mission. And he wrote that as if that's a GOOD thing. Premies are realizing this ain't working, and maybe Rawat is trying to put a spin on it.
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Date: Wed, Apr 11, 2001 at 08:40:07 (GMT)
From: Disculta Darling
Email: None
To: G
Subject: This is so great...
Message:
Yeah, thanks for your responses on the God-to-ordinary question.

And I just loved the baby-whispering, horse-braying, making a video with a hangover descriptions... heh heh heh!

Giggling back to bed

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Date: Wed, Apr 11, 2001 at 04:27:15 (GMT)
From: Roy
Email: z
To: G
Subject: thanks G - I've often wondered about this... nt
Message:
z
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Date: Tues, Apr 10, 2001 at 23:23:56 (GMT)
From: Helen
Email: None
To: Jule
Subject: Hi everyone
Message:
I agree--make him clean toilets forever!

So heartening to see your post and to know that someone was changed because of the forum. It certainly had that effect on me also.

And tell all your fence sitting premie friends that we (at forum 5) are not all ogres who wallow in hate and bitterness. Many of us are downright idealistic and positive.

Take care and thanks for posting,
Helen

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Date: Tues, Apr 10, 2001 at 23:09:17 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Jule
Subject: Oh no! Not another possible ex suicide!
Message:
Now I feel a little like a brat, needling my premie friends with the latest revelation about what a subhuman jerk Maharaji is.

Hi Jule,

I hope you're not planning to do anything desparate.

Okay, this is joke is in decidedly poor taste, especially as I knew of several people who really did kill themselves because of their faith in Maharaji, never their lack of it ('Wrestling with doubt' is only wrestling because of the underlying faith that makes it all so troubling).

I guess I was just making fun of one of the things premies have thrown out here over time, that we bear a terrible responsibility for shattering dreams, no matter how pathetic they might be. Well, you seem okay. Nice to hear from you.
don't forget your Smart Card. :)

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Date: Tues, Apr 10, 2001 at 23:02:13 (GMT)
From: JHB
Email: None
To: Jule
Subject: Welcome Jule, to the real world
Message:
Well I think it's real:-) At least your husband will think you're more real now. And people complain about this place....

John the escaped two and a bit years ago.

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Date: Tues, Apr 10, 2001 at 18:38:11 (GMT)
From: Peter
Email: PeterBarrett6@btinternet.com
To: Everyone
Subject: Protest and Protect?
Message:
Hi there.

Two points regarding my recent first exploration of ex-premies org, although the second point is what I'm most interested in.

Firstly, it has been over twenty years since I walked away from Divine Light Mission. But having only just discovered ex-premie org after a good friend mentioned it (another ex-premie), and though I barely give Maharaji a thought nowadays. I don’t think I really appreciated the extent of the bad feeling towards M from many ex’s. Hence, I had first read with some concern many of the earlier postings, and then the replies to my own posting on whether or not M ought to be pitied rather than despised?

Obviously I bow to the individual experiences of those who responded; we cope with our own lives in our own way. However, since for myself far better or worse things have happened to me in my life other than Maharaji. And not least the tragic death of my wife at age 39, but from whom I learnt far more about love, compassion, truth and the simplicity of life than I ever did from Maharaji. Truly M's impression on my life is now virtually insignificant.

What I am interested in now though is whether or not those who feel so strongly are involved in any direct action? I mean other than the website, have there ever been any protest outside programmes? My own superficial observation seems to indicate that Maharaji is still able to keep an extremely low profile?

Surely if all is true regarding the reality behind the M’s mask, since I left DL before a lot of the shit happened. Then others need to be actively discouraged from becoming involved! Who protects the sincere but gullible people ‘desperately seeking something’?

Peter.

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Date: Wed, Apr 11, 2001 at 01:43:50 (GMT)
From: Selene
Email: None
To: Peter
Subject: we are changing the cult by changing
Message:
One mind at a time [snicker]
EPO is what it is. There's lot of info in the archives regarding what's been done or not done. That's the thing about this place, we (especially if not anonymous) are for the most part out in the open and anyone can have the advantage of popping in out of the blue and judging.

Now keep in mind I am on the EPO bongo list so I may not be privy to ALL that has been accomplished via direct action. That's a joke Peter, Know what they are?
(uh I think it's a joke anyway )
You said it, you are new. might not be the time to try to correct all the warts here.

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Date: Wed, Apr 11, 2001 at 00:47:57 (GMT)
From: Cynthia
Email: None
To: Peter
Subject: Picking for Information Peter???? n/t
Message:
n/t
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Date: Wed, Apr 11, 2001 at 00:07:06 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Peter
Subject: Hi Peter
Message:
Don't know what everyone's getting all jumpy about. I get your question about 'direct action' but you get the answer now, I guess. None planned or carried-out particularly. But a few things have been done beyond posting here or establishing and maintaining these sites.

For one thing, as Way mentioned, letters have been sent, calls made, there was the ad for the MRC letter. There've been several efforts to inculcate a little press interest (nothing much happening there yet, I'm afraid, although I'm told two strong pieces are coming down the pike). A few of us participated in a very revealing prank on ELK, the premie website. You can read about that somewhere around here.

So what else is there anyway? What would you like to see done? What would you be willing to do in that respect? We're pretty much committed to lawful, non-threatening behaviour. Those are the paramters. What do you have in mind?

P.S. I'm also sorry to hear about your wife. When did you lose her?

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Date: Tues, Apr 10, 2001 at 22:23:44 (GMT)
From: Pat Conlon
Email: None
To: Peter
Subject: Peter, I'm sorry that you've encountered rudeness
Message:
I am also sorry to hear about the tragic loss of your wife.

I can't explain what prompted much of the rudeness from other posters. Your post seemed pretty straightforward. There does seem to be some misunderstanding and few guys here think you are still a cultist. My only excuse is that the forum is regularly bombarded by cult trolls who seek to put a new spin on the old urug.

I hope that you will stick around and sort out the misunderstandings. Welcome.

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Date: Tues, Apr 10, 2001 at 20:03:40 (GMT)
From: Nigel
Email: None
To: Peter
Subject: Protest and Protect?
Message:
Hi again Peter,

When you ask 'Who protects the sincere but gullible people ‘desperately seeking something’? my first thought was to offer you the job ;)

The thing is, in addition to those, so far, modest protests listed by Way below, I don't think you should underestimate the presence of this website. It has sprouted and grown from nothing in four years and the number of people reading is increasing exponentially. Traditional 'direct action' protests can sometimes find limited audiences. I remember, as a premie, occasionally encountering (usually Christian fundamentalist) pickets outside events and just walking past without taking any notice - certainly without taking any of their leaflets.

Also, 'direct' activists for whatever cause can be viewed as obsessives, with crackpot views of their own (as Greenpeace members are frequently portrayed).

Via the internet, however, I think you can bypass many of these problems and spread your protest directly into the homes of all interested parties. No real need to track down aspirants' addresses in the west, since very few are without web access nowadays and natural curiousity will inevitably lead many of them here. (This site has already prevented many such from getting more deeply involved.) As truly direct action goes I can't think of a better resource than EPO - the chance for people to meet and interrogate not only a handful of brave souls standing outside an event, but an ever-growing 'army' of ex-members, including a few who were highly placed within the organisation. And you can provide so much more information for people to browse at leisure than you otherwise might. The best complementary activity would, I think, be simply to advertise this site at events or wherever, as has been done with the business cards.

(Though a disgruntled ex with a concealed megaphone inside an event would be great fun, it has to be said! - especially if another ex with a camcorder were on hand to capture the look on Lardy's face!)

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Date: Tues, Apr 10, 2001 at 20:35:54 (GMT)
From: Peter
Email: None
To: Nigel
Subject: Protest and Protect?
Message:
Hi Nigel

As I keep saying I'm new to the forum, but why is that there seems to be so many people who think they need to be so rude.

I've just responded to cq who seems to think I'm some kind of EV infiltrator. Because I'm new I keep asking questions, thats all. Like I said to cq open and honest debate. Yet I have never come across so much resistence, anger, or on occasion even paranoia.

Thanks for your the welcome! This all seems like a very select club! I think I'll go back to a world where all this means nothing.

I'm beginning to think that there's little difference between ex's and premies. Both are miserable, except one does'nt know it yet.

Peter.

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Date: Tues, Apr 10, 2001 at 21:12:18 (GMT)
From: Nigel
Email: nigel@redcrow.demon.co.uk
To: Peter
Subject: Miserable, moi?!
Message:
hope you didn't mean me too, Pete. This is just a fun kind of hobby - beats watching TV, and you too might find it addictive in sure course. Having met cq I don't think he's remotely miserable either (nor particularly rude down below). The thing is, after previous apparent 'fact-finding' visits from strangers, I hope you'll see there is a need to be cautious, especially when discussing things like possible direct action.

I think if you stick around you'll see we're a harmless enough bunch. But 'like premies?' Good grief - I hope not. I can't imagine any premie applying brain to analysing the cult process in the way that Helen, say, does down below. Posts like that are well worth logging in for anyday, IMO.

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Date: Tues, Apr 10, 2001 at 21:07:06 (GMT)
From: gerry
Email: None
To: Peter
Subject: You wuss
Message:
As I keep saying I'm new to the forum, but why is that there seems to be so many people who think they need to be so rude.

Ha, you ain't seen nuthin yet, shit-for-brains. You're whining about some perceived rudeness when people have KILLED THEMSELVES following your puerile, greasy little pukey god.

I've just responded to cq who seems to think I'm some kind of EV infiltrator. Because I'm new I keep asking questions, thats all. Like I said to cq open and honest debate. Yet I have never come across so much resistence, anger, or on occasion even paranoia.

Boy, have you ever lived a sheltered life then. Look asshole, this cult apologist technique of trying to make Ex-premies look angry, paranoid, etc. is getting really old, and it's ineffective. So can it now, einstein.

Thanks for your the welcome! This all seems like a very select club! I think I'll go back to a world where all this means nothing.

Yeah, go back to the 'real' world of Goober and his happy goofy dupes. You belong there.

I'm beginning to think that there's little difference between ex's and premies. Both are miserable, except one does'nt know it yet.

You stunning asshole! How can you possible know ONE person's subjective experience, let alone a whole group ?

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Date: Wed, Apr 11, 2001 at 02:31:41 (GMT)
From: Selene
Email: None
To: gerry
Subject: it is so old isn't it?
Message:
Their either: A. .outright mean attacks or
B. the PC approach to fixing us all.
And then, when confronted the indignant hurt tone.

Not sure Peter fits this category, haven't made up our collective mind have to wait and see what everyone else thinks first before I dare say or think.

Who said you are cute? I never saw a picture. (but you 'sound' cute)

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Date: Wed, Apr 11, 2001 at 02:52:21 (GMT)
From: gerry
Email: None
To: Selene
Subject: My mamma sez so...
Message:
Oh all right.

Here's the The Enigmatic Filament Fighter

I don't need no Smart Card though, I'm smart enuff...

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Date: Wed, Apr 11, 2001 at 03:07:56 (GMT)
From: Selene
Email: None
To: gerry
Subject: I'll try other browsers tomorrow ot
Message:
so this is it?
We're sorry, but this page is currently unavailable for viewing. If this site belongs to you, please read this help page for more information and assistance.

oh yeah I didn't read the help. Tomorrow. unelss it's not about me and you need to fix something?

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Date: Wed, Apr 11, 2001 at 03:17:00 (GMT)
From: gerry
Email: None
To: Selene
Subject: try it again
Message:
It worked fine just a minute ago, although I did get that same page you did the first time I tried it.

And no, I'm not doing anything deliberate with my hands, they look weird yeah, and don't even ask what that green light is, because I don't know.

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Date: Wed, Apr 11, 2001 at 03:25:32 (GMT)
From: Selene
Email: None
To: gerry
Subject: got it ok you are cute ot
Message:
glad you expained the hands thing. The green light well...
You have a black and white cat, my favorite. My cat Lucy looked like that. I haven't been able to replace her yet.
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Date: Tues, Apr 10, 2001 at 19:32:29 (GMT)
From: cq
Email: None
To: Peter
Subject: Despised? Your objection never mentioned that.
Message:
Peter, the post I think you're referring to never mentioned anything about 'despising' anyone.

Your objection seemed to be that exes 'shouldn't' feel anger, an opinion that I countered in my reply to you (below).

In your original post, you said this: '... my main point for writing is to say, that whilst I am new to ex-premie org I have monitored many of the postings for awhile now'

Forgive me for saying so, but there's a world of difference between merely 'lurking' and 'monitoring'.

Can you see how a public, international forum like this is not the place to discuss 'direct action'?

Forgive me if I'm being unecessarily cautious here, but how do we know you're not an EV monitor?

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Date: Tues, Apr 10, 2001 at 20:16:02 (GMT)
From: Peter
Email: None
To: cq
Subject: sorry cq but what's your point?
Message:
Dear cq

I'm sorry but I don't understand the point of your response?

Firstly, I had no objection to ex's feeling whatever they want to feel. Its their own individual experience, and what do I know of it! I was actually asking what I thought was a question, you know open and honest debate!Or have you forgotten how? Had you read most of the other postings you would have observed a wide range of responses, from indifference to dispised.

But what did you mean by lurking? Who's lurking? I hope you were not suggesting something sinister about my interest in ex-premie.org? Is this how you greet all new people, accuse them of lurking!

As for your remark 'Can you see how a public, international forum like this is not the place to discuss 'direct action''? Check out the next comment by 'Way'.

Finally, is the 'we' in your final comment a secret inner group suspicious of every new person to the website? Will I need to be initiated? How do I become a 'we'.

I'm disappointed with your attitude

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Date: Tues, Apr 10, 2001 at 20:38:34 (GMT)
From: cq
Email: None
To: Peter
Subject: you really are new here?
Message:
for the record, and for clueing other readers of this thread in, let me repeat your and my posts, then we'll talk about 'open and honest debates':

Date:
Sun, Apr 08, 2001 at 22:58:23
From:
Peter
Email:
None
To:
Everyone
Subject:
Pity rather than anger?
Message:

Hi there

Discovering ex-premie org has been recently new for me. However, I have over the years
often wondered where all the premies had gone, since their cetainly not at satsang evenings
anymore! Those evenings in Leeds are only attended by a smattering of diehards, or those
haplessly searching for something. But over the years there must have been hundreds
initiated from Leeds alone? With such a drop out rate its not what you would call a success
story!

However, my main point for writing is to say, that whilst I am new to ex-premie org I have
monitored many of the postings for awhile now. And I whilst can understand the
disappointment many feel that Maharaji turned out to be only human after all, and one with
such disturbing failings. Nevertheless, surely all the anger only disempowers us and keep us trapped by his power. I would suggest that pity is perhaps a more appropriate response.

Since if Maharaji fell from grace along the way it was only from the pedestal we had put
him upon. We gave him the power over us!I personally hold no malice towards him, in
fact, if all is true that has recently been revealed, then surely he is more the victim of his
own deception than ever we could’ve been from the spiritual sham he perpetrated. Since
we are now free of the deception, whilst for many others under the spell the illusion lives
on, and on, and on.

I recognise that it is important to deter wherever possible those who might naively fall foul
of the lure, or to help and assist those who take the courageous step of breaking free.
Since for evil to succeed good people only have to do nothing at all! But the anger only
makes us look malicious and spitefull, rather we should have pity.
One day Maharaji will
need to face himself...

Still I do enjoy the more humorous tone to some of the postings.

Peter.

.
.
.
my (cq's) reply:

Date:
Mon, Apr 09, 2001 at 21:43:24
From:
cq
Email:
None
To:
Peter
Subject:
On reclaiming your ability to feel anger -
Message:

Peter, this may sound harsh, but try at least to take it in the spirit in which it's meant:

You need to able to feel anger. Not just you, - everyone. Anger is a natural part of being
human, and it has a purpose. You might disagree, but consider this:

any teacher that tries to dissociate you from your ability to feel anger (or from any other
emotion that is your natural human birthright) - is out to weaken you, though they'll
probably claim the opposite.

There are those of us who have seen that there are 'thieves in the temple' - and for us,
anger is real, and it needs expression.

Dissociation from reality is often a gradual process. If you've been involved with Maharaji
for any length of time, it will doubtless come as surprise to you to be asked to consider that
you have been involved with dissociating yourself from the one thing you thought you were
attaining.

The fact is, for all his talk of finding your 'true reality' and your 'true self', Maharaji entraps
people into a belief-system that is more about losing touch with the reality of the
wholeness - the totality - of their true self.

.
.
.
You say 'surely all the anger only disempowers us and keep us trapped by his power'

No, Peter.

Reclaiming our ability to feel anger is a major part of re-empowering ourselves to be
ourselves. Our whole selves.

The Maha's power was in persuading us ever-so docile, humble, adoring, mindless sheep
to keep AWAY from owning our anger. Getting the flock to be dependent on him and his
so-called 'grace' was his motive. It is not the way of the true seeker.

.
.
.

One final thing:

You say of yourself that even though you are 'new to ex-premie org I have monitored
many of the postings for awhile now'

Excuse me?

You're new here, yet you've 'monitored' many of the postings?

Well, OK, though it sounds like you're a former EV monitor, welcome, nonetheless.

I was a devotee myself, once.

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Date: Tues, Apr 10, 2001 at 20:34:09 (GMT)
From: gerry
Email: None
To: Peter
Subject: You're full of shit, Peter.
Message:
You did INDEED attempt to tell people how to think or feel. You want people to 'feel sorry' for the greasy little indian pimp.

And your use of the word 'monitoring' does ring a little sininster as it is well known that EV monitors this site. But you never answered cq's question: are you an EV monitor?

Piss off with you attempts at making Chris look bad. If you want a real rough welcome, well you've come to the right person.

And Way isn't necessarily all knowing about what is happening behind the scenes.

As far as this little gem goes,
Finally, is the 'we' in your final comment a secret inner group suspicious of every new person to the website? Will I need to be initiated? How do I become a 'we'.

All I can say is you are probably a guru ass-licker and apologist and you can fuck off. There is no we here, cult man, only in your dreams, you fucking robot.

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Date: Tues, Apr 10, 2001 at 20:50:30 (GMT)
From: Peter
Email: None
To: gerry
Subject: How ugly and sad you have become!
Message:
Well Gerry

Did'nt you get a lot off your sad disturbed little mind. I remember now why I left DL in the first place, because it was full of unhappy ugly little brained bastards like you.

Bet you were in Divine Sales or something like that!

Read my posting to Nigel. You certainly quailify. You have all the attributes of one very very sick person.

Hope you get well soon. And the aswers no! If you can remember the question.

Peter.


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Date: Tues, Apr 10, 2001 at 21:34:12 (GMT)
From: gerry
Email: None
To: Peter
Subject: No I was born that way you dildo.
Message:
What's a 'brained bastard?' Someone who received nollige from Fakiranand?

As far as being miserable, I'm living my dream life, pal. You're just a handy punching bag for a little side fun. Why? because you're a cult apologist and I hate your cult and it's leader, the dim bulb Filament.

I have ALL the attributes of a very sick person? ALL??? Every single one? Jeez, that's...GREAT, doctor, thank you. I feel better now.

Oh, and assholeji, I was the World Wide Coordinator for raggedety ass junk pickers like you.

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Date: Tues, Apr 10, 2001 at 21:03:54 (GMT)
From: Way
Email: None
To: Peter
Subject: Peter - don't let 'em get to you
Message:
Don't go because they're giving you a hard time. I'm still reeling from the fact that Gerry doubts my omniscience, but such cruel words won't scare me off, no siree.
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Date: Tues, Apr 10, 2001 at 21:28:07 (GMT)
From: Lesley
Email: None
To: Peter
Subject: Peter - who are you
Message:
Well, until you show yourself, I can only guess.

Are you sitting there, genuinely bemused at not getting a sympathetic and trusting response, as you are sure you would if we could only see your face.....

Or are you yet another incarnation of a multi alias poster. Is Catweasel sharpening his claws?

If you are the former, my sympathies, just try to understand, hang in here, and you will end up having a great conversation, challenging the beliefs you hold, and hopefully experiencing some changes in your life for the better.

If you are catweasel, turn off the computer, go for a long solitary walk on the beach, take a deep breath, think about what you are going to eat for dinner, talk to a friend face to face.

Best Regards, Lesley
PS Lay off Gerry, I hate it when people insult him.

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Date: Tues, Apr 10, 2001 at 22:30:17 (GMT)
From: Peter
Email: None
To: Lesley
Subject: Peter - who am I?
Message:
Hi Lesley

Who am I? Is it important?

The answer to your other question is yes.

And my life is great thank you. Since I've been out of DL long enough to have had one!

As for laying off gerry.Well! He/she is a bit of a shit. And if he/she wants to play games I'm pretty good at them.

Well good night.

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Date: Tues, Apr 10, 2001 at 19:25:27 (GMT)
From: Way
Email: None
To: Peter
Subject: Protest and Protect?
Message:
Peter,

The anti-Maharaji movement has been pretty much limited to this website, so far.

No significant protests at events or elsewhere.

A few brave souls have ventured into programs armed with ex-premie.org business cards, which they left in restroom stalls and other strategic places.

Jondon once made a sign and stood outside one of the morning television news shows in NYC which shows their sidewalk audiences on air.

The '14 objections letter' has been sent out to quite a few higher-ups in the current organization.

And there was the MRC, the Maharaji Responsibility Campaign, who took out an ad in a Boston newspaper when Maharaji had a program there in early 2000, I believe.

Something is currently 'in the air' about a Maharaji expose in some sort of publication, but that is not confirmed.

We tried to get Michael Moore interested with his television show, but no bite.

We've tried to get 20/20 and other USA news shows interested, as well as some tabloid magazines, but no bites.

There is extremely little public interest in Maharaji, who is small potatoes in the larger scheme of things. His organization is the West is dwindling and hardly anyone has even heard of him.

But things could change. If Elan Vital starts to grow in the West, via satellite, the anti-guru forces might have more to do, more reason to act.

I think there is little more we can do to persuade some premies against their guru. Picketing their events with signs, etc. might only make them dig in their heals more. Some premies will always want to be cult members, depending on a guru for their truth in life. They are more likely to drink poisoned koolaid in Amaroo than grow up and take charge of their own lives. So what can you do?

But I don't mean to discourage you. Any ideas?

I agree that people should be warned against involvement with Rawat's personality cult. I would love to get my hands on a list of current aspirants with their addresses!!!

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Date: Tues, Apr 10, 2001 at 20:02:36 (GMT)
From: A.S.F.
Email: None
To: Peter
Subject: The A.S.F.'s current strategies
Message:
The Amaroo Sabotage Forces have hired an airplane loaded with stink bombs to drop on several targets throughout the upcoming, four-day, April program. Elan Vital spies have broken our codes, but don't worry: the premie ground-to-air anti-stink-bomb defenses are only halfway functioning, if our intelligence reports are accurate.
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Date: Tues, Apr 10, 2001 at 20:39:20 (GMT)
From: Elan Vital
Email: None
To: A.S.F.
Subject: The A.S.F.'s current strategies
Message:
Ha! You fools!

The Amaroo event is FULLY secured against ASF attack. It's true that Plan A's technology still has a few bugs, but Plan B is fully operational! Each premie participant will be given a security package. This package is to be kept on one's person at all times, but only opened in case of an emergency. It contains a photo of the lotus feet and a gardenia blossom. In the event of a stink attack, the photo is pressed to one's forehead, and the blossom is pressed to one's nostrils. Under no circumstances will Maharaji's satsang be disrupted or discontinued!

So there!

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Date: Wed, Apr 11, 2001 at 09:32:45 (GMT)
From: Steve Quint
Email: the_avenger55@hotmail.com
To: FA
Subject: FA - I Think This Is Not The Real Elan Vital
Message:
The real Elan Vital would not be using such unsynchronized terms as 'premie' and 'satsang'.

Steve

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Date: Wed, Apr 11, 2001 at 20:43:35 (GMT)
From: Elan Vital
Email: None
To: Steve Quint
Subject: Thank you Steve
Message:
Steve,

We at Elan Vital appreciate you noticing an imposter puttng up posts, in a vicious and cruel fashion, claiming to be Elan Vital. As you correctly note, Elan Vital would not use the words 'premie' or 'satsang' as we believe those are horrible, misleading Hindu concepts which, if they were ever used in the history of our non-cult-like organization, they were literally forced onto Maharaji, probably through the threatened use of weapons of mass desctruction.

As Glenn Whittaker so brilliantly points out in his perspective, it was only through Maharaji's HURCULEAN EFFORT that he selflessly saved us from such damaging concepts that came from backward and ignorant, although well-meaning Hindus, like certain Mahatmas. Elan Vital also has reason to believe that certain of Maharaji's 'family members' may have hoisted these dangerous terms onto the organization in an attempt to make it appear it was a cult. One of them, who shall remain nameless but has the initials 'SP', we believe, is still, to this day, propogating such concepts in the World.

Thank you for your clarification, and don't forget to get your registration form, and the money is US currency, in for the extravaganza that will be AMAROO 2001.

In addition to the gourmet food and the full-stocked bar, we are pleased to announce that a new rendition of 'Krishna Lila' will be performed on opening night, starring the original, now middle-aged cast, who, although moving a little slower these days, has been rehearsing well, once we were able to let out the seams of the costumes.

In Synchronization,

Elan Vital

CHILD MOLESTATION IS OUR LOWEST PRIORITY

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Date: Tues, Apr 10, 2001 at 21:04:00 (GMT)
From: Lesley
Email: None
To: Elan Vital
Subject: Plan B
Message:
Ah, but the AWLF (Amaroo Wallabies Liberation Front) has come up with a counter plan, THEY KNOW ABOUT THE GARDENIAS, and will simply bound up and eat them, not the photos though, after all a wallaby can suffer from indigestion too.
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