Forum V: Archive
Compiled: Wed, May 02, 2001 at 22:46:04 (GMT)
From: Apr 21, 2001 To: Apr 30, 2001 Page: 5 Of: 5


salam -:- Cult and society -:- Sun, Apr 22, 2001 at 16:03:44 (GMT)
__ Steve Quint -:- Cult and society -:- Sun, Apr 22, 2001 at 17:24:43 (GMT)
__ __ salam -:- take some pistacho with you. -:- Mon, Apr 23, 2001 at 08:35:01 (GMT)

Marianne -:- Back to San Francisco -:- Sun, Apr 22, 2001 at 14:23:00 (GMT)
__ Nigel -:- Keep the spare room vacant, Mar... -:- Mon, Apr 23, 2001 at 18:46:55 (GMT)
__ PatC -:- San Francisco, open your Golden Gate -:- Sun, Apr 22, 2001 at 17:09:40 (GMT)
__ Gregg -:- welcome back (what's the opposite of belated?)! nt -:- Sun, Apr 22, 2001 at 16:04:50 (GMT)
__ salam -:- On a cork?...............nt -:- Sun, Apr 22, 2001 at 15:58:48 (GMT)
__ Kelly -:- Back to San Francisco -:- Sun, Apr 22, 2001 at 15:12:15 (GMT)
__ __ Katie Darling -:- What I love about this -:- Mon, Apr 23, 2001 at 03:36:00 (GMT)
__ __ __ PatC -:- SF Latvian Night is now to be known officially as -:- Mon, Apr 23, 2001 at 08:49:53 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Katie Darling -:- YES! -:- Mon, Apr 23, 2001 at 15:52:06 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ PatC -:- Who were you channelling? -:- Mon, Apr 23, 2001 at 18:24:24 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Katie Darling -:- Til death or exiting do us part... -:- Mon, Apr 23, 2001 at 20:30:46 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ AJW -:- Latvian Pigeons. -:- Mon, Apr 23, 2001 at 10:45:19 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ PatC -:- We declared our independence from you monarchists -:- Mon, Apr 23, 2001 at 18:14:27 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ AJW -:- Bonne Appetit Pat et Al (whoever Al is). -:- Tues, Apr 24, 2001 at 09:29:47 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Marianne -:- The SF ex gig -- reservations -:- Mon, Apr 23, 2001 at 10:04:18 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ PatC -:- Marianne, you can fancy my pigeon any time -:- Mon, Apr 23, 2001 at 18:17:14 (GMT)

janet -:- praise from the Radhasoami ex's to us Ex-P's: -:- Sun, Apr 22, 2001 at 12:44:51 (GMT)
__ connectthedots_99 -:- praise from the Radhasoami ex's to us Ex-P's: -:- Sun, Apr 22, 2001 at 23:48:08 (GMT)
__ __ PatC -:- Hi, Dots, we were all on the ''road is a sham' -:- Mon, Apr 23, 2001 at 08:58:57 (GMT)
__ __ __ G -:- Here's a post there re eating dirt that Raji JI.. -:- Mon, Apr 23, 2001 at 17:52:55 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ G -:- another post 'Are ducks dogs' -:- Mon, Apr 23, 2001 at 18:01:53 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ PatC -:- Yes, G, I bookmarked that satsangi site and will -:- Mon, Apr 23, 2001 at 20:05:58 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ PatC -:- Now where did they dig up that piece of dirt? -:- Mon, Apr 23, 2001 at 18:01:02 (GMT)
__ __ a0aji -:- URL for praise from the Radhasoami ex -:- Mon, Apr 23, 2001 at 05:59:44 (GMT)
__ __ janet/Jai -:- hey!!!cool! you came over!!! waiter! a table! -:- Mon, Apr 23, 2001 at 04:54:14 (GMT)
__ __ __ Connectthedots -:- Let's Party -:- Tues, Apr 24, 2001 at 04:08:29 (GMT)
__ __ G -:- If you want some web help... -:- Mon, Apr 23, 2001 at 04:42:59 (GMT)
__ __ __ G -:- or some investigative help... -:- Mon, Apr 23, 2001 at 04:55:09 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Connect the dots -:- or some investigative help... -:- Tues, Apr 24, 2001 at 04:26:33 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ G -:- Don't know until you try. -:- Tues, Apr 24, 2001 at 16:52:33 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ connectthedots -:- Don't know until you try. -:- Wed, Apr 25, 2001 at 03:25:37 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ PatC -:- Good for you, G. Let's put all the fakirs out of -:- Mon, Apr 23, 2001 at 09:01:49 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ G -:- Yes, all of them. -:- Mon, Apr 23, 2001 at 15:44:18 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ connectthedots -:- Enter daylight..... -:- Tues, Apr 24, 2001 at 13:32:21 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ G -:- Enter daylight..... -:- Tues, Apr 24, 2001 at 23:13:22 (GMT)
__ __ Roy -:- divine market realities in a global economy -:- Mon, Apr 23, 2001 at 04:13:35 (GMT)
__ __ __ janet -:- not to mention websites.smirk. -:- Mon, Apr 23, 2001 at 04:56:14 (GMT)
__ __ Francesca -:- Welcome and thanks for your valuable input n/t -:- Mon, Apr 23, 2001 at 00:33:26 (GMT)
__ Francesca -:- Wow Janet! -:- Sun, Apr 22, 2001 at 21:22:58 (GMT)

Elizabeth -:- Who i am and why i am here -:- Sun, Apr 22, 2001 at 09:28:46 (GMT)
__ Tonette -:- Good luck with your sister -:- Tues, Apr 24, 2001 at 03:58:16 (GMT)
__ PatC -:- Hi, Elizabeth. Janet's the life and soul of this -:- Mon, Apr 23, 2001 at 09:05:47 (GMT)
__ Katie Darling -:- Hi and welcome -:- Sun, Apr 22, 2001 at 09:45:57 (GMT)
__ __ Elizabeth -:- Hi and welcome -:- Sun, Apr 22, 2001 at 10:09:50 (GMT)
__ __ __ a0aji -:- Hi and welcome -:- Mon, Apr 23, 2001 at 05:40:49 (GMT)
__ __ __ Jai satchitananda -:- Hellow and welcome (nt) -:- Sun, Apr 22, 2001 at 23:19:10 (GMT)

ExTex -:- What's it all about, Alfy? -:- Sun, Apr 22, 2001 at 06:13:24 (GMT)
__ Sivan/Sam -:- What's it all about, Alfy? -:- Tues, Apr 24, 2001 at 06:45:11 (GMT)
__ Tonette -:- Why are you angry with us? -:- Tues, Apr 24, 2001 at 03:38:14 (GMT)
__ __ ExTex -:- Why are you angry with us? -:- Wed, Apr 25, 2001 at 16:51:13 (GMT)
__ a0aji -:- What's it all about, Alfy? -:- Mon, Apr 23, 2001 at 04:45:48 (GMT)
__ Jim -:- What's it all about, Alfy? -:- Sun, Apr 22, 2001 at 22:47:27 (GMT)
__ __ ExTex -:- Ha Ha Ha -:- Wed, Apr 25, 2001 at 16:59:19 (GMT)
__ Francesca -:- Oh, liberate us please, O wise one -:- Sun, Apr 22, 2001 at 21:30:07 (GMT)
__ __ JHB -:- Not again - what's going on? -:- Sun, Apr 22, 2001 at 21:39:21 (GMT)
__ __ __ Francesca -:- Sorry if I offended you -:- Sun, Apr 22, 2001 at 22:46:58 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ JHB -:- Apology accepted:-) (nt) -:- Sun, Apr 22, 2001 at 23:12:24 (GMT)
__ Katie H -:- Hey, ExTex -:- Sun, Apr 22, 2001 at 14:44:06 (GMT)
__ __ ExTex -:- Hey, Katie H -:- Wed, Apr 25, 2001 at 17:15:33 (GMT)
__ __ Jim -:- Why DON'T you put testimonial letters up, Katie? -:- Sun, Apr 22, 2001 at 22:14:54 (GMT)
__ __ __ Francesca -:- Also wondering -:- Sun, Apr 22, 2001 at 22:49:07 (GMT)
__ __ __ JHB -:- I was wondering the same -:- Sun, Apr 22, 2001 at 22:33:50 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Katie H -:- Talk to Brian :) - he gets them (nt) -:- Mon, Apr 23, 2001 at 02:13:06 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Katie H -:- My further feelings about this -:- Mon, Apr 23, 2001 at 12:19:59 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Francesca -:- I think you're right on this one -:- Mon, Apr 23, 2001 at 16:27:39 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Katie H -:- I think you're right on this one -:- Tues, Apr 24, 2001 at 01:07:43 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Francesca -:- I think you're right on this one -:- Tues, Apr 24, 2001 at 05:10:34 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Jim -:- Not me -:- Mon, Apr 23, 2001 at 18:49:55 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Francesca -:- the law would be squishy there, Jim -:- Mon, Apr 23, 2001 at 19:37:09 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Jim -:- What's 'the law' got to do with this? -:- Mon, Apr 23, 2001 at 23:05:51 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Francesca -:- One more thought -:- Tues, Apr 24, 2001 at 00:03:27 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Francesca -:- More a policy thing, but you got me started -:- Mon, Apr 23, 2001 at 23:56:23 (GMT)
__ Loaf -:- This is now a social club with a 'mission' -:- Sun, Apr 22, 2001 at 06:50:23 (GMT)
__ __ Nigel -:- Odd anagram: 'elan vital' = 'El Latvian'! nt -:- Sun, Apr 22, 2001 at 11:20:51 (GMT)
__ __ __ Jim -:- 'Gratitude' = 'A tired tug' (nt) -:- Sun, Apr 22, 2001 at 22:24:43 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Jim -:- Synchronization = A corny shit inn Oz (Amaroo?) (n -:- Sun, Apr 22, 2001 at 22:27:38 (GMT)
__ __ __ PatC -:- Prempal Rawat = Pamper a trawl! Or is it Troll? NT -:- Sun, Apr 22, 2001 at 19:02:30 (GMT)
__ __ __ Kelly -:- Hi Elgin! Where do you keep your marbles? -:- Sun, Apr 22, 2001 at 17:49:33 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ PatC -:- Radhasoamis: this ''road is a sham'' NT -:- Sun, Apr 22, 2001 at 19:06:21 (GMT)
__ __ __ janet -:- Odd anagram: 'elan vital' = 'El Latvian'! nt -:- Sun, Apr 22, 2001 at 11:25:09 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ PatC -:- Maharaji = A hair jam! Like a fur ball? Cough! NT -:- Sun, Apr 22, 2001 at 18:58:37 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Kelly -:- Keep your furry balls outa here Pat C, nt -:- Sun, Apr 22, 2001 at 19:32:07 (GMT)
__ JHB -:- What's it all about, Alfy? -:- Sun, Apr 22, 2001 at 06:22:46 (GMT)
__ __ PatC -:- Amen Brother Loaf and Squire John -:- Sun, Apr 22, 2001 at 07:24:26 (GMT)
__ __ __ JHB -:- Enough of throwing Latvian babies! -:- Sun, Apr 22, 2001 at 10:15:40 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ PatC -:- We meant obese middle-aged Hindu babies! NT -:- Mon, Apr 23, 2001 at 01:07:54 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Loaf -:- But the bathwater... its precious and holy ! (nt) -:- Mon, Apr 23, 2001 at 06:52:16 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ PatC -:- the bathwater... we'll drink it at San Francisco -:- Mon, Apr 23, 2001 at 09:10:55 (GMT)
__ __ __ Katie Darling -:- Ex-Tex, ole friend -:- Sun, Apr 22, 2001 at 09:22:38 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ ExTex -:- Ex-Tex,Caves In -:- Wed, Apr 25, 2001 at 17:27:01 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ a0aji -:- I thought -you- were Ma Jong! -nt- -:- Mon, Apr 23, 2001 at 05:11:30 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Francesca -:- Great post, Katie D -:- Sun, Apr 22, 2001 at 22:51:43 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Katie H. -:- Katie D - your recent posts... -:- Sun, Apr 22, 2001 at 15:30:48 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Katie Darling -:- Recovered memories -:- Mon, Apr 23, 2001 at 03:03:38 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Katie H -:- You and other SF/LA exes should write it up! -:- Tues, Apr 24, 2001 at 01:31:37 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ PatC -:- A collaboration needs and editor, Katie. You game? -:- Tues, Apr 24, 2001 at 01:43:54 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Katie Darling -:- Not me, I NEED an editor -:- Tues, Apr 24, 2001 at 02:01:19 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ PatC -:- What's your book about? -:- Tues, Apr 24, 2001 at 02:38:07 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Katie Darling -:- What's your book about? -:- Tues, Apr 24, 2001 at 05:16:27 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ PatC -:- Well I hope you will be near the sea in Hawaii -:- Tues, Apr 24, 2001 at 07:26:35 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ PatC -:- Recherchez du Temps Perdu -:- Mon, Apr 23, 2001 at 09:14:28 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Lesley -:- plopping in to add my testimonial, and ex-tex -:- Sun, Apr 22, 2001 at 21:12:45 (GMT)

Peter Premie -:- I love to tell the story, of M and all his glory.. -:- Sun, Apr 22, 2001 at 04:58:21 (GMT)
__ DeProGram Anand Ji -:- I love to tell the story, of M and all his glory.. -:- Tues, Apr 24, 2001 at 07:33:45 (GMT)
__ Kelly -:- Peter Premie,you're just not synchronised. -:- Sun, Apr 22, 2001 at 14:19:31 (GMT)
__ __ Marianne -:- Kelly girl, where've you been? ot -:- Sun, Apr 22, 2001 at 14:24:52 (GMT)
__ Tim Matheson -:- to Peter P and other active PwKS only -:- Sun, Apr 22, 2001 at 13:19:56 (GMT)
__ toby -:- I love to tell the story, of M and all his glory.. -:- Sun, Apr 22, 2001 at 11:32:44 (GMT)
__ SB -:- Yes, shut up! -:- Sun, Apr 22, 2001 at 11:14:36 (GMT)
__ __ Jim -:- Couldn't you tell this was a joke? Sheesh! (nt) -:- Sun, Apr 22, 2001 at 22:10:24 (GMT)
__ __ __ Peter Premie -:- Thanks Jim.Each statement has double meaning.nt -:- Mon, Apr 23, 2001 at 00:53:32 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Cynthia -:- Yeah, Really, Uh, Duh......n/t -:- Mon, Apr 23, 2001 at 01:23:29 (GMT)
__ Luke Pewk -:- You ask: should you tone down your satsang? YES! -:- Sun, Apr 22, 2001 at 07:30:34 (GMT)
__ __ la-ex -:- Irony deficiency here-if you read each comment... -:- Sun, Apr 22, 2001 at 12:50:53 (GMT)

la-ex -:- has anyone heard about the new k trainings? -:- Sun, Apr 22, 2001 at 04:28:02 (GMT)
__ Kelly -:- has anyone heard about the new k trainings? -:- Sun, Apr 22, 2001 at 17:31:00 (GMT)
__ __ Francesca -:- Just read that Miragey thread -:- Mon, Apr 23, 2001 at 18:04:49 (GMT)
__ __ __ Kelly -:- Just read that Miragey thread -:- Tues, Apr 24, 2001 at 20:28:54 (GMT)
__ __ Francesca -:- Great one, Kelly -:- Sun, Apr 22, 2001 at 18:52:27 (GMT)
__ __ Marianne -:- Uh, I think EV is associated with knowledge -:- Sun, Apr 22, 2001 at 18:09:18 (GMT)
__ __ __ Kelly -:- Uh, I think EV is associated with knowledge -:- Sun, Apr 22, 2001 at 18:50:27 (GMT)
__ PatC -:- The Citywide ''Particpation Team'' arranging -:- Sun, Apr 22, 2001 at 07:48:17 (GMT)
__ __ Francesca -:- Good information and astute comments -:- Sun, Apr 22, 2001 at 16:14:50 (GMT)
__ __ __ PatC -:- Yes, Francesca, I was invited but -:- Mon, Apr 23, 2001 at 17:56:23 (GMT)

Francesca -:- A poem for the mindless ones -:- Sun, Apr 22, 2001 at 04:18:02 (GMT)
__ PatC -:- Singing yiyi yippee yippee yi -:- Mon, Apr 23, 2001 at 01:04:28 (GMT)
__ suchabanana -:- So, throw 'em a bone, where the wallabes roam! (nt -:- Sun, Apr 22, 2001 at 07:47:30 (GMT)

JHB -:- Masturbation -:- Sat, Apr 21, 2001 at 22:22:34 (GMT)
__ suchabanana -:- The personality cult is,like, 'MASTERbation'! -:- Sun, Apr 22, 2001 at 07:55:07 (GMT)
__ Mel Bourne -:- Masturbation -:- Sun, Apr 22, 2001 at 05:56:01 (GMT)
__ __ JHB -:- The serious point about this -:- Sun, Apr 22, 2001 at 10:07:05 (GMT)
__ __ __ Francesca -:- Here's a part of a post to Kelly, above by me -:- Mon, Apr 23, 2001 at 00:40:48 (GMT)
__ __ __ Mel Bourne -:- The serious point about this -:- Sun, Apr 22, 2001 at 15:35:13 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Gerry -:- Thanks Mel, you just pointed out -:- Mon, Apr 23, 2001 at 16:01:00 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Mel Bourne -:- Thanks Mel, you just pointed out -:- Tues, Apr 24, 2001 at 08:14:58 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Francesca -:- A good, honest post, Mel. Thanks! n/t -:- Mon, Apr 23, 2001 at 00:42:56 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ JHB -:- The serious point about this -:- Sun, Apr 22, 2001 at 20:04:25 (GMT)
__ Bazza -:- That's why people join a cult -:- Sun, Apr 22, 2001 at 02:52:45 (GMT)
__ Nigel -:- Yes - a reasonable analogy, John -:- Sun, Apr 22, 2001 at 01:26:10 (GMT)
__ __ Moldy Warp -:- No more lonely practices -:- Sun, Apr 22, 2001 at 01:37:17 (GMT)
__ __ __ Loaf -:- Oh no !!! They have both started to Moo !!! (OTT) -:- Sun, Apr 22, 2001 at 06:52:57 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Moldy Warp -:- Hey Loaf - get yer tutu ready OT -:- Sun, Apr 22, 2001 at 14:27:07 (GMT)
__ Sir Dave -:- Masturbation -:- Sun, Apr 22, 2001 at 00:02:55 (GMT)
__ __ PatC -:- Masturbation - especially if your hands are tied! -:- Sun, Apr 22, 2001 at 01:11:38 (GMT)
__ PatC -:- Meditation=Masturbation? Yes! -:- Sat, Apr 21, 2001 at 23:51:40 (GMT)
__ Helen -:- Masturbation -:- Sat, Apr 21, 2001 at 22:49:16 (GMT)
__ JHB -:- PS.... -:- Sat, Apr 21, 2001 at 22:45:09 (GMT)
__ __ janet -:- fascinating comparison. hm. -:- Sun, Apr 22, 2001 at 11:37:46 (GMT)
__ Marianne -:- Answer: I think so -- nt -:- Sat, Apr 21, 2001 at 22:36:43 (GMT)

Jim -:- Is this funny? Sick? Funny? Sick and funny? -:- Sat, Apr 21, 2001 at 21:41:25 (GMT)
__ SB -:- SAD, very SAD: He got another 19 year old -:- Mon, Apr 23, 2001 at 11:48:12 (GMT)
__ Roy -:- reads like j. peterman or lands end catalog. nt. -:- Sun, Apr 22, 2001 at 00:40:42 (GMT)


Date: Sun, Apr 22, 2001 at 16:03:44 (GMT)
From: salam
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: Cult and society
Message:
online magazine at:

http://www.cultsandsociety.com/

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Date: Sun, Apr 22, 2001 at 17:24:43 (GMT)
From: Steve Quint
Email: the_avenger55@hotmail.com
To: salam
Subject: Cult and society
Message:
Am thinking of going to the satellite event today to see old friends. What do you think?

Steve

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Date: Mon, Apr 23, 2001 at 08:35:01 (GMT)
From: salam
Email: None
To: Steve Quint
Subject: take some pistacho with you.
Message:
Just in case it get's quite.
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Date: Sun, Apr 22, 2001 at 14:23:00 (GMT)
From: Marianne
Email: MarianneDB@aol.com
To: Everyone
Subject: Back to San Francisco
Message:
I am headed back to San Francisco later this week. My Irish email account expires in a few days. To reach me in the future, use the email address above.

Many, many thanks to all you European exes who opened your hearts and homes to me during my time here this year and last. I have loved meeting you all.

You know where to find me when you make your way across the pond. My door will always be open to you.

Most of all, thanks for the great laughs at the Latvian Nights. What a crew we are!

Much love to all, Marianne

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Date: Mon, Apr 23, 2001 at 18:46:55 (GMT)
From: Nigel
Email: None
To: Marianne
Subject: Keep the spare room vacant, Mar...
Message:
The Latvian invasion (UK division) might be upon you before you know...;)
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Date: Sun, Apr 22, 2001 at 17:09:40 (GMT)
From: PatC
Email: None
To: Marianne
Subject: San Francisco, open your Golden Gate
Message:
Marianne the Fag Hag IS comin' home!
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Date: Sun, Apr 22, 2001 at 16:04:50 (GMT)
From: Gregg
Email: None
To: Marianne
Subject: welcome back (what's the opposite of belated?)! nt
Message:
s
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Date: Sun, Apr 22, 2001 at 15:58:48 (GMT)
From: salam
Email: None
To: Marianne
Subject: On a cork?...............nt
Message:
nt
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Date: Sun, Apr 22, 2001 at 15:12:15 (GMT)
From: Kelly
Email: None
To: Marianne
Subject: Back to San Francisco
Message:
Hi Marianne,

I'm really sad to see you go. You were one of the first to respond to me when I first posted last Nov, and you followed through with a phone call. I intend to have a chat with Ex-Tex on this very subject. It has been exes like you, and Disculta Darling and la-ex and Joy and Salaam and Michael Dettmers and Susan and all the wonderful people I have met and engaged with on and off this forum, that have helped my process of extricating myself from the insidious influences of this cult.( I have only named a few of those people who responded to my first posts, there were more and there have been many more since. I have even met some of them in the flesh, so to speak, at Latvian night and really enjoyed and benefited from their company)

You have been a great support to me, and I know to many others as well. Thanks for sticking around for so long!

I hear you're gonna be making it big in the media round here soon! Why don't you tell us about it before you return?

I know you're still just an e-mail away, but there's something about being in the same time zone! Don't you think?

Take care, and give my love to the Latvian diaspora!
Kelly

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Date: Mon, Apr 23, 2001 at 03:36:00 (GMT)
From: Katie Darling
Email: None
To: Kelly
Subject: What I love about this
Message:
is that we - and you especially - are reclaiming the fun of being part of a community of supportive people worldwide. An unexpected benefit of cult involvement. In fact, everyone should join a cult, so that they can later have Latvian nights. I think any excuse is a good one - even pigeon-fancying - to feel like a part of a fun global family.

It's all good.

Welcome back. Looking forward to having your actual darshan at Latvian night.

I'm going to Hawaii for two weeks next Thursday. Don't cry for me, anyone.

love Katie Darling

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Date: Mon, Apr 23, 2001 at 08:49:53 (GMT)
From: PatC
Email: pdconlon@yahoo.com
To: Katie Darling
Subject: SF Latvian Night is now to be known officially as
Message:
San Francisco Pigeon Fanciers Club Night.

Katie Darling said: ''....everyone should join a cult, so that they can later have Latvian nights. I think any excuse is a good one - even pigeon-fancying - to feel like a part of a fun global family.''

We don't want to be copy-cats and use the Europeans' term for our get-togethers so I hereby announce that the ''San Francisco Pigeon Fanciers Club'' will be having a party at my restaurant on June 2nd starting at 5pm with cocktails and hor d'oeuvres. Buffet supper to follow at 7pm.

Please contact me or Marianne to make reservations for a night of pigeon fancying in the garden of good and evil.

Thank you, Katie sweetie dahling. You are brilliant.

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Date: Mon, Apr 23, 2001 at 15:52:06 (GMT)
From: Katie Darling
Email: None
To: PatC
Subject: YES!
Message:
I knew I was channeling when I wrote that.

Pigeon-fancying is indeed a very worthwhile occupation for all of us. Plus, we have crossed the pond, and need our own lingo!

love Katie Darling (ex-pat Brit)

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Date: Mon, Apr 23, 2001 at 18:24:24 (GMT)
From: PatC
Email: None
To: Katie Darling
Subject: Who were you channelling?
Message:
The US sitcom ''All in the Family'' was a copy of the UK ''Till Death Us Do Part.'' Wasn't the Brit version of Archie Bunker a pigeon-fancier? Or am I thinking of Karl Malden in ''On the Waterfront?'' Whoever - it's perfect.

See you at the first annual meeting of the San Francisco Pigeon-Fanciers' Club in the Gardens of Good and Evil.

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Date: Mon, Apr 23, 2001 at 20:30:46 (GMT)
From: Katie Darling
Email: None
To: PatC
Subject: Til death or exiting do us part...
Message:
That was an incredible program (the English version). My whole family used to crowd round the TV in fascination at the brilliant representation of a right-wing asshole. He probably was a pigeon-fancier. But I still agree it's a good name for us.
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Date: Mon, Apr 23, 2001 at 10:45:19 (GMT)
From: AJW
Email: None
To: PatC
Subject: Latvian Pigeons.
Message:
Pat,

Pat,

We had a committee meeting about this. You can only have a pigeon fancying night if at least 51% of the birds were laid as eggs in Latvia.

And you've got to call it, 'The Latvian Pigeon Fanciers Night'.

We're so worried about this break-away group you're trying to start, we're to sending our lawyer over on Wednesday to threaten and scare you and your ornithological mates with legal action, if you suggest that the Pigeon Fanciers are in anyway related to the Latvians.

Anth, mental faculties in severe decline after six months in...Dot, which country are we in?...Where's me shoes?...What day is it?

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Date: Mon, Apr 23, 2001 at 18:14:27 (GMT)
From: PatC
Email: None
To: AJW
Subject: We declared our independence from you monarchists
Message:
in 1776 and will not be dictated to by the likes of you. Anyway, in San Francisco, everyone has a little Latvian blood in them. Why, even the Chinese are Irish on St Pat's day.

The problem with announcing Latvian Night at a restaurant in a city with a Latvian population of 10,000 is that we will be mobbed and there won't be any room for us Pigeon Fanciers.

Sure wish you could be here, Anth.

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Date: Tues, Apr 24, 2001 at 09:29:47 (GMT)
From: AJW
Email: None
To: PatC
Subject: Bonne Appetit Pat et Al (whoever Al is).
Message:
We'll be over one day Pat, hopefully in the next 12 months, if our retirement plans go right ('Retire', 'Drop Out Again', it's all semantics to an old hippy).

Anyway, we've got a sofa booked with Marianne and Raphael, so we hope to be over there in the forseeable future.

We're about to hit the road again, and will be out of the Netherlands this time next week.

Have a great night. I'm sure you will.

Anth, who will be represented by a stoned pigeon, which will probably arrive late.

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Date: Mon, Apr 23, 2001 at 10:04:18 (GMT)
From: Marianne
Email: MarianneDB@aol.com
To: PatC
Subject: The SF ex gig -- reservations
Message:
To make a reservation for drinks and/or dinner, reach me at this email address. Pat and I have a complete list of everyone who has given an RSVP so far.

So Pat, does this new name for our ex event mean you are going to let me fancy your pigeon?

Just wondering.

Love, Marianne

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Date: Mon, Apr 23, 2001 at 18:17:14 (GMT)
From: PatC
Email: None
To: Marianne
Subject: Marianne, you can fancy my pigeon any time
Message:
as long as you don't pluck my two chickens.

See you soon.

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Date: Sun, Apr 22, 2001 at 12:44:51 (GMT)
From: janet
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: praise from the Radhasoami ex's to us Ex-P's:
Message:
just got this over at yahoo clubs, Radhasoami Studies:
Jai, I am wowed by the www.ex-premie.org site.
It is very well designed, it is easy to navigate to the various information categories. The writing is effective, straightforward and intelligent.
It would be a better layout for the ex satsangi site IMO...I think people can still have dialogues but for those seeking information and support, they can go right to what they need without struggling thru dozens of posts.
I will correspond with you, there is much correlation between the establishment of your centers and what Radha Soami Satsang Beas is doing now. The psychology is just the same. Only RSSB Masters hide their wealth, Maharaji flaunted it.
Connect the dots
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Date: Sun, Apr 22, 2001 at 23:48:08 (GMT)
From: connectthedots_99
Email: None
To: janet
Subject: praise from the Radhasoami ex's to us Ex-P's:
Message:
Greetings everyone, I am an ex-satsangi and our group has very much in common with you. Although I had no idea until now how comprehensive your site was, I have mentioned it several times on our site that Satsangis would do well to learn from your experience.

In many ways, you are 20 years ahead of our experience. RSSB-Radha Soami Satsang Beas under the direction of (God Incarnate) Gurinder Singh has directed an ambitious global expansion.

Reading the well presented history here is in many ways a mirror of what is being unvieled in RSSB. The changes in identity to merge into the western market, the pressure to donate and the impact on people's lives. Several of my long time dear friends (now estranged) have become inner circle in the organization and I correspond with one of the highest ranking representatives who maintained a close relationship with the Masters until recently and has resigned. There are already numerous personal tragedies and suicides with the progressively more complex and pressured scenarios coming into play.

One major difference however is the RSSB Masters have been very secretive about their profiteering, the organization's rise to power in the punjabi region of Northern India has been accomplished in great part due to stealth, low profile.

Now with the young, brash Gurinder Singh at the helm- global expansion and all that comes with it.....the mixed messages, the pressure to donate (because he is God and whatever he encourages is divine) but not wanting the scrutinization that comes with outlandish claims and high profile.....yes, it is a chapter from the novel you have experienced years before.

Our website, ExSatsangiSupportGroup.com has not been very active lately although there is an outer circle of very good contributors who check in. It is currently supervised by a temporary. I am hoping it will survive and a webmaster will study your site and impliment a similar one. One of the main functions is to provide support for those who are having concerns and feel isolated. (I love your 'breaking free' too)

Thank you for the invitation to participate Jai and all
Best regards, Connect the dots

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Date: Mon, Apr 23, 2001 at 08:58:57 (GMT)
From: PatC
Email: None
To: connectthedots_99
Subject: Hi, Dots, we were all on the ''road is a sham'
Message:
or Radhasoami path if you connect the dots in that anagram. I think we'll have a lot of fun connecting all of our dots. Welcome.
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Date: Mon, Apr 23, 2001 at 17:52:55 (GMT)
From: G
Email: None
To: PatC
Subject: Here's a post there re eating dirt that Raji JI..
Message:
stepped on.

A post called 'This is more disgusting!' dated 2/8/01:

'One of Guru Maharaji's (PremRawat)devotee's once ate a piece of earth that Raja Ji stepped on.

RajaJi is prempal's brother who many of his followers used to believe was the incarnation of Vishnu. They also believed that the other brothers were Brahma and Vishnu.'

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Date: Mon, Apr 23, 2001 at 18:01:53 (GMT)
From: G
Email: None
To: PatC
Subject: another post 'Are ducks dogs'
Message:
Here's an excellent ex-satgangi post dated 1/30/01:

Are ducks dogs? bad_ass_bertha
1/30/01 11:12 pm
I suppose those who remain in the fold despite cognitive dissonance and/or bad experiences inside the sangat, or with the guru/Master -- is that they feel it is God's Will. That it is the Master's way of slipping the rug out from underneath the ego, and if their feelings got hurt or some other indignity, that was probably a good thing as it chipped away a piece off their self importance. This, of course, is dogma --- a religious supposition that makes people quite pliable and amenable to control. They are sacrificing their 'ego' to 'God's Will' through obedience to the Will of the Master. But folks rarely look at the hazards of this thinking -- the flip side of it - esp. from a historical point of view (such as the Aztecs -- perhaps the rudest example of the RESULTS of unquestioning submission to a 'God' via orders from a Divine Broker.)

An error in discrimination is assuming one must surrender one's critical, logical faculties. One can't do this anyhow, one can only pretend to, and that is where cognitive dissonance enters in. The priest tells me that the dog is a duck. I do not want to offend the priest or be a bad person in the eyes of God. So I say, 'sure, OK, that is a duck'. But the mind does not believe it, so it is in conflict. It is screaming, 'NO NO, that is a DOG!' Another example: 'The Master never says he is a Master, yet the guru lets Professor BigWampa right next to him wax on about the guru's greatness and how the guru is God Himself in flesh.' The power of discernment lets us know there is something incongruous about this. But we accept or ignore the conflict. Somehow we must float the mind because the information is not a match. Oh, says the disciple that is OK because the whole object is to defeat the mind. The ego must be sacrificed to the guru, or Master, or God. But the ego is a concept, we can't scrape our image off the mirror and give it over to anything, or anybody anyhow. What we do do is screw up our natural neural-navigational system.

The theology or religion interjects 'Oh, you are making your own ego and mind your God'. No. We are simply making use of what was forged through a long, long, process of evolution. Our neural network is organized to sort out information accurately for survival. But as soon as we put 'Religion' into it, esp. an abstract dogmatic one, we feel duty-bound to abort recognition of conflicting data. Enter cognitive dissonance….and the result of that is not 'enlightenment' but impairment of brain function. Read history and weep at the consequences, they are horrendous. We are not allowed to contradict the guru or priest and say, 'well, shit, it looks like a dog to me buddy why are you calling it a 'duck''? We are not allowed to go to the microphone and ask: Prof. BigWampa just referred to you as God in Flesh is that true? Is that what you think your are? The answer would be 'No, sister, I am just a sevadar, I am doing my seva.' One could press on and ask: BUT, people, books and Prof. BigWampa refer to you as The Lord in Flesh, why do you LET THEM misrepresent you?' That would be considered 'highly improper'…we know that. But it should NOT BE IMPROPER. The mind was designed for that, let it do it's job without throwing a bunch of superstitious religious garbage in its ballpark which only causes cognitive mayhem.

One does not PREACH love, one can only (maybe) inspire it. A mother does not need somebody to preach to her how she should feel about her baby; a person 'in love' with somebody also doesn't need to be preached to about their relationship with the beloved…it is in them. When a system develops around love, does one still have love, or only a system of control? IMHO, we are much more likely to be 'taken to the cleaners' than taken to 'God'.

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Date: Mon, Apr 23, 2001 at 20:05:58 (GMT)
From: PatC
Email: None
To: G
Subject: Yes, G, I bookmarked that satsangi site and will
Message:
be reading it a lot. Too eerie how many of their experiences match ours. The game has just begun.
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Date: Mon, Apr 23, 2001 at 18:01:02 (GMT)
From: PatC
Email: None
To: G
Subject: Now where did they dig up that piece of dirt?
Message:
I think we're going to have fun with the ex-satsangis. I've known quite a few practicing satsangis as well Sai Babarians.
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Date: Mon, Apr 23, 2001 at 05:59:44 (GMT)
From: a0aji
Email: None
To: connectthedots_99
Subject: URL for praise from the Radhasoami ex
Message:
http://clubs.yahoo.com/clubs/exsatsangisupportgroup?s

The domain you mention seems to be unreachable from here. A search on some keywords brought the above link -- seems correct.

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Date: Mon, Apr 23, 2001 at 04:54:14 (GMT)
From: janet/Jai
Email: None
To: connectthedots_99
Subject: hey!!!cool! you came over!!! waiter! a table!
Message:
by all means! i hope you make it a regular thing to come by! feel free to start a tab. order anything ya want. the Guru's gonna pay for all of it. Myself, I chainsmoke marlboro reds and slug flavored gourmet cappucino all night and favor the more intellectual and argumentative discussions.

we're always open. we never close. one of our reg's referred to this as the all night word salad café and diner. I prefer to think of it as a really cool coffeehouse.
we have poetry, open mike, art exhibits, a free lending library, spontaneous, unscheduled mini classes and enlightening lectures, the occasional english as a second language dropin, and oodles of socio-political-humanitarian-intellectual trading of views and opinions.

It's so cool that you came over!!

Hey everybody--meet my friend from the yahoo club for Radhasoami Studies. this is our cousin, ConnectTheDots_99. We met on the message board over there and I invited them to drop in and say hi and get introduced around.

So, 'Dots--what'll ya have? Hungry? Ya smoke? You wanna sit out on the patio or in here by the fire? Or do ya just wanna roam around and see the place?

I'll be here if ya need me. I stay here all night, pacific time zone hours. Just yell if you want something.

Janet (Schwartz) of venice

aka
Jai Choix
( J Schwa)

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Date: Tues, Apr 24, 2001 at 04:08:29 (GMT)
From: Connectthedots
Email: None
To: janet/Jai
Subject: Let's Party
Message:
Thanks for the warm welcome! It's such a deja vu reading the stories here. You sure share my sense of FUN too. My best times ever were living it up in gypsy Flamenco cabarets.

So....yes, I'd love to pull up a chair and break bread with kindred spirits and spill sangria.....
CTD

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Date: Mon, Apr 23, 2001 at 04:42:59 (GMT)
From: G
Email: None
To: connectthedots_99
Subject: If you want some web help...
Message:
I would be willing to provide some help with web design, graphics, and HTML. Some others here might also be willing to help.
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Date: Mon, Apr 23, 2001 at 04:55:09 (GMT)
From: G
Email: None
To: connectthedots_99
Subject: or some investigative help...
Message:
I might be able to help you expose his assets, if you haven't already done so. I was able to track down Rawat's yacht and other assets, so I know how to go about it, specifically for assets in the U.S., but also the general procedure, which would hopefully apply to assets in India. Does he have assets in the U.S.?

Exposure of assets sounds like more of an achilles heel for the goorinder and his ilk than it is for Rawat, since Rawat has flaunted some of his wealth. Providing real evidence of his assets would be very useful since it would counter the rationalization of 'Oh, they are just making this up.'

Let me know.

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Date: Tues, Apr 24, 2001 at 04:26:33 (GMT)
From: Connect the dots
Email: None
To: G
Subject: or some investigative help...
Message:
Do tell!! Exposing even some of the finances of RSSB would be a torpedo hit (I love it). Unlike Maharaji, The RSSB Masters have piously proclaimed thier humble servitude when in reality they are ruthless profiteers who, like the stories you tell here, do not care one bit about who gets hurt.

Getting any information from an institution that has secrecy down to a science for generations seems like a David vs. Goliath mission.

The 'Dera' the headquarters in the punjab is no less than a huge fortress city now GUARDED BY THE INDIAN MILITARY no less. They have bought off everyone they need to in India to guard their fleecing operation. As I mentioned they are embarking on global expansion where they may be more vulnerable....I don't think they are conforming to laws here in the states and like your experience there are many reports of being asked to smuggle, mostly consumer goods but money too.

Do you really think it is possible? I have heard from good sources it is such a tangled web, too hard to track and the financial structure is compared to an amoeboid shape...when scrutiny is detected it just changes shape....

Uncovering assests is tantalizing.....

CTD

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Date: Tues, Apr 24, 2001 at 16:52:33 (GMT)
From: G
Email: None
To: Connect the dots
Subject: Don't know until you try.
Message:
Hi Dots,

May I call you Dots?

I think it's worth making an effort. It's hard to tell how much you'll find out. You just have to take it a step at a time. It sounds like it may be impossible to track down all the assets, but you might be able to track down some. You might not be able to provide absolute proof, but maybe reasonable evidence that will influence those who have not abandoned all reason. It may be necessary to view your efforts as containment.

G

PS Perhaps we should use email to converse about the detais.
I'll provide an email address in a reply to 'Enter daylight'.

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Date: Wed, Apr 25, 2001 at 03:25:37 (GMT)
From: connectthedots
Email: None
To: G
Subject: Don't know until you try.
Message:
G,

Yes, it will be interesting to just try and see what happens. Ironically, these Godmen may be more vulnerable because of their proclaimations of personal humble living with no material benefit from their position than those who are obvious.

The expose' of the plane hit a nerve for those who hadn't abondoned reason because it shattered the image of the humble non-material saints. Perhaps just a few more examples like this would make a difference.

If they are going to take people to the cleaners, they should at least have to break a sweat doing it. Maybe we can make the job more difficult.....

Yes, email is a good idea....I'll look for your address...Dots

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Date: Mon, Apr 23, 2001 at 09:01:49 (GMT)
From: PatC
Email: None
To: G
Subject: Good for you, G. Let's put all the fakirs out of
Message:
business. Funny how ''fakir'' means ''beggar'' but all these fakers are stinking rich.
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Date: Mon, Apr 23, 2001 at 15:44:18 (GMT)
From: G
Email: None
To: PatC
Subject: Yes, all of them.
Message:
Especially the worst of the worst, like Sai Baba. I helped out a little by providing some info to an ex sai follower and it felt great. It's not pleasant to face it, but there are many more people in other cults. Cults are a wide spread problem and I think ex-cult members should work together.
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Date: Tues, Apr 24, 2001 at 13:32:21 (GMT)
From: connectthedots
Email: None
To: G
Subject: Enter daylight.....
Message:
G.,

You speak my language. There are many fronts where these guys are frauds....all the junk scholarship used to support their positions and so on. But my approach has been....follow the money.

I did expose the existance of a private jet and tarnished the image considerably across the internet. Many refused to believe it untill it became public knowledge... I know it rattled RSSB because there were veiled reverences in the western newsletter.

I am now estranged with my inner circle friends. I do have one source who can perhaps provide clarifications if needed.

Yes, they have begun considerable land investments in the US, Vancouver, Canada and several centers in Europe, England.
The center in Petaluma, California is the most developed. On the exsatsangisupportgroup site in 'photos' there is a newsletter posted (where they are brainwashing for labor) and there is some detailed information on officers, and addresses so forth.

From their constant 'concept shifts' as Jai referred to the Maharaji behavior, I feel they are insecure about their activities in the states, they clearly don't have the same red carpet protection as in India.

What do you need to do your sleuth work? Let's party.
Connect the dots

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Date: Tues, Apr 24, 2001 at 23:13:22 (GMT)
From: G
Email: gsmithman@hotmail.com
To: connectthedots
Subject: Enter daylight.....
Message:
Connect the dots,

My email is shown above. We might want to use email for some of this. What do you think? I'm wondering if RSSB might be monitoring and I don't want to use up space here on details.

What do you mean by 'junk scholarship'?

Good going on exposing that jet!

Do they use company names not beginning with 'Radha Soami'?

Here's some info, I've got more:

From Search for Exempt Organizations at the IRS web site, seaching for 'Radha':

Organization Name/City/Code:

Radha Soami Foundation Beas Minneapolis Center
Minneapolis, MN
None - A public charity with a 50% deductibility limitation.

Radha Soami Satsang USA
Three Rivers, MI
None - A public charity with a 50% deductibility limitation.

Radha Soami Society Beas - America
Fayetteville, NC
None - A public charity with a 50% deductibility limitation.

Further information from the IRS is available, but I can't do it right now. It involves downloading a huge file, searching, and translating codes.

I have some more info that I can email to you. I got it from the web.

G

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Date: Mon, Apr 23, 2001 at 04:13:35 (GMT)
From: Roy
Email: z
To: connectthedots_99
Subject: divine market realities in a global economy
Message:
Avatars face stiff competition in the new economy -
buyouts, mergers, public offerings..

'Hey,my Captain Fudgebar stock is down 30%' !!

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Date: Mon, Apr 23, 2001 at 04:56:14 (GMT)
From: janet
Email: None
To: Roy
Subject: not to mention websites.smirk.
Message:
if theyre so all knowing and all seeing, why didnt they forsee the rise of THIS?
giggle.
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Date: Mon, Apr 23, 2001 at 00:33:26 (GMT)
From: Francesca
Email: None
To: connectthedots_99
Subject: Welcome and thanks for your valuable input n/t
Message:
n/t
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Date: Sun, Apr 22, 2001 at 21:22:58 (GMT)
From: Francesca
Email: None
To: janet
Subject: Wow Janet!
Message:
We can't be everywhere at once. Glad to see you reaching out to these folks. Keep posting on this. Love, f
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Date: Sun, Apr 22, 2001 at 09:28:46 (GMT)
From: Elizabeth
Email: Cheshirecat_90291@yahoo.com
To: Everyone
Subject: Who i am and why i am here
Message:
Hello,
My name is Elizabeth, and i am a friend of Janet's.

I am familair to cults, and the damage they can do:

I was in a satanic cult for awhile, when i was roughly 16, 17--( and i still have nightmares on that one,)

I was brainwashed by the teachings of the Worldwide Church of God (this was when Mr Armstrong was head of the church, from 1984-1988)

and my sister Sindy has been a member of the MSIA cult, run by John Roger Higgins, since around 1981 or 82. (Higgins looks evil! I have been thrown out of my sister and her husband's home, for saying just that!)

When I met Janet in 1994, she was very much into M., and as I got to know her, it did not appear to be fake or whatever an outsider might think. I told her M's pictures not look evil the way John Roger's photos did, to me. Janet never pressured me to get into M. or Knowledge; in fact, she did'nt talk about it much at all. I had to ask her about it periodically, if there was something I was curious about, that I wanted to know. I got the sense that she answered me as honestly as she could.

Then came the secrets-- the stuff she would not tell me, such as what Knowledge actually was, and how to do it.

I never wanted to go to programs.

Does anyone mind my posting here? Janet has been telling me about this site and this forum for some months, now, and there's a lot i want to ask, and I have stuff I'd like to share, from my own experience with cults.

For starters,
Did M ever stress any of your relationships? and, if so, how did you fix them?

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Date: Tues, Apr 24, 2001 at 03:58:16 (GMT)
From: Tonette
Email: None
To: Elizabeth
Subject: Good luck with your sister
Message:
Yes, you are most welcome here.

There is alot of cult info in general terms on this site and others. Would your sister be interested in viewing some of the material here? Might be a start for her in any case.

The similarities among cults is astounding! Bound to at least start the first drip as they say.

Kind regards
Tonette

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Date: Mon, Apr 23, 2001 at 09:05:47 (GMT)
From: PatC
Email: None
To: Elizabeth
Subject: Hi, Elizabeth. Janet's the life and soul of this
Message:
party so I'm sure she'll make you feel right at home. Welcome.
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Date: Sun, Apr 22, 2001 at 09:45:57 (GMT)
From: Katie Darling
Email: None
To: Elizabeth
Subject: Hi and welcome
Message:
You're most welcome to post here. We love to share perspeetives on the whole cult thing.

Did MJ ever stress relationships. Duh! Well, yes, to put it mildly. There is a thread below started by Jim called 'this needs to be reposted' in which a lot of us talk about this. MJ basically encouraged us to break up our relationships to join his ashrams to devote ourselves fulltime to serving his coffers. Many marriages broke up, people left kids. I stayed in my marriage, but it was very stressed for me by the guilt of not moving back in the ashram.

I have read a book about the John Roger cult ('Life 102: What to do when your guru sues you') that makes it sound uncannily like the experience of many of us here, especially those who were involved in the early days.

Come in and party.

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Date: Sun, Apr 22, 2001 at 10:09:50 (GMT)
From: Elizabeth
Email: None
To: Katie Darling
Subject: Hi and welcome
Message:
Thank you so much for making me feel better about being here.That book you talked about is where i got most of my info on msia.my sister thinks of jr as a kind of god did you have anything like lessons that were like lectures and you paid out the rear to learn?Something like the msia discourses

What was the bait?

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Date: Mon, Apr 23, 2001 at 05:40:49 (GMT)
From: a0aji
Email: None
To: Elizabeth
Subject: Hi and welcome
Message:
Hi Elizabeth.

The contents of SustainedAction.Org were of interest to me, since I bought into some of Castaneda's thinking, for a while.

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Date: Sun, Apr 22, 2001 at 23:19:10 (GMT)
From: Jai satchitananda
Email: fducados@hotmail.com
To: Elizabeth
Subject: Hellow and welcome (nt)
Message:
NT
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Date: Sun, Apr 22, 2001 at 06:13:24 (GMT)
From: ExTex
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: What's it all about, Alfy?
Message:
I've been gone for a long while. Actually popped by to see if Anth (one of the most gifted humourists I have had the pleasure of reading... since M. Twain.) and Selene, and the crew were still hanging here. (I knew I could probably find Jim Heller Marianne and Roger lurking about.) I just dropped in and you know what?... this is starting to seem like a pretty weird scene, in and of itself.

How long will this drag on? The evaluating of and analysing of this whole GooMargie/DLM/EV truly bogus scene? The thought occurs to me.... HEY GET A LIFE!! Who cares what this guy is still trying to perpetrate and why? We made it through their B.S. and so will others. We can stand to show that it is not the end of your damn life to get mixed up in a bogus scam like this (there are a million of them... try Christianity for a start)... as you are looking for the 'truth'.

But for crying out loud GET OVER IT! This is turning into The 'Cult of The Anti-Cult'. Absurd. Too much attention being paid to and obsessing about a scene that is so OBVIOUSLY BOGUS!!! And also for a lot of you posting here..it was SUPPOSED to be over a LONG time ago! Me, I got sucked in at Montrose Co. Guru Puja in the 70's. It takes time and energy to work back out of it all, keeping what you want. But it does get worked out! HEY- MOVE ON! The Karmic wheel spins and will take care of this insane charade. Around and around it goes and where it stops nobody knows! Ha Ha Ha! Grab life by the throat and leave no stone unturned!?

PS- How about those beautiful souls standing firm against shit culture in Quebec??? HAVE A THOUGHTFUL AND MEANINGFUL EARTH DAY 2001.

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Date: Tues, Apr 24, 2001 at 06:45:11 (GMT)
From: Sivan/Sam
Email: -
To: ExTex
Subject: What's it all about, Alfy?
Message:
i come here, not just to hopefully see the demise of m and the freeing of the scared little souls (and just the lovely humans) who still cling to him, but because I enjoy the amazingly interesting lives,lived by so many
who post here. Take another look and personally, I've never encountered a site, where so many interesting, informed people say so much- not just on m, but so many fascinating topics. Also, I find them very supportive to people who post genuinely.
After giving up an hour a day to meditate- they (including me) probably spend that time here- doesn't mean they dont have many hours and many interests to get on with....hey?
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Date: Tues, Apr 24, 2001 at 03:38:14 (GMT)
From: Tonette
Email: None
To: ExTex
Subject: Why are you angry with us?
Message:
Hey, I enjoyed reading your posts when you were here. But your thread doesn't remind me of the Ex-Tex I was fond of. Not at all.

What's up?

Yes this is a wierd scene. Truly.

For some, like me, it's a kind of fascination although I don't post very much. Call it a hobby.
For some it's almost a social scene.
For some it's exposure to the truth about M and his cult.
For some it's a kind of therapy.
For some it is a social service.
And for some, it is something entirely different.

But you have to admit that M and his cult damages people and in the spirit of helping others we endure.

Hopefully, this site will be here as long as M has a cult and then probably after that as well. This site will probably be here as long as there are personality cults around so is it safe to say, we might be here forever? Oh God!

Anyway glad you dropped in.

Fondly
Tonette

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Date: Wed, Apr 25, 2001 at 16:51:13 (GMT)
From: ExTex
Email: None
To: Tonette
Subject: Why are you angry with us?
Message:
Oops, did I sound angry? My apologies to ALL. Not angry my friends.... I don't know how to put it. Definetly NOT angry!

I guess it is more of CONCERN. Concern and alarm for those who seem to be still engaged in all this GooMargie stuff LONG after they supposedly have disengaged from it. Remember 'a black sheep is still a sheep!'

Isn't occupying one's mind with all the concerns of the comings and goings of the GooMargie and his dwindling herd of turtles a form of obsessing with and hanging on to an unhealthy scene... by pretending to be dissing on it and no longer reacting to it's influence.

I don't know where I am going with this (there's your opportunity Jim, ha ha ha, set myself up) but it is great to have interacted with all of you in the past on all the stuff that we talked and fought about. I really like a lot (of what I know) of you. I just hate to see the rehashing and rehashing over and over of something that we supposedly are not involved with anymore. Does anyone know what I mean? It seems pretty unhealthy.

Then again, how else would I have been able to virtually meet you knuckleheads...one and all... and that has been of value.

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Date: Mon, Apr 23, 2001 at 04:45:48 (GMT)
From: a0aji
Email: chris@hafey.com
To: ExTex
Subject: What's it all about, Alfy?
Message:
The thing is, if people here did get a life, the place would probably go off the grid. I think some of the dialogs with the muckety-mucks that has happened here recently is valuable; I don't really need to understand what happened to me anymore, but that could be a simple artifact of having really understood it all too well -- that I was misled. EPO was critical to that understanding.

In an ideal world I think some kind of a 'Watcher' mentality would better suit this place; it is quiet until someone new shows up and asks a good question. Kind of like how IRC is, sometimes -- lots of people sit on a channel, auditing it, but not speaking actively unless something of real value crops up.

On IRC, for reasons I'm not quite sure of, what usually happens in practice is someone settles in on the channel and babbles inanely, until someone who thinks they share ownership of the channel drives them off with insults and other antisocial activity.

The channels on IRC worth dipping into are the HOWTO/Help type channels, where the theme is you ask 'em, we answer 'em.

I'm not sure how that model might be fitted to EPO, assuming anyone was interested in changing the model (or affecting a new one).

-a0aji (chris@hafey.com)

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Date: Sun, Apr 22, 2001 at 22:47:27 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: ExTex
Subject: What's it all about, Alfy?
Message:
PS- How about those beautiful souls standing firm against shit culture in Quebec??? HAVE A THOUGHTFUL AND MEANINGFUL EARTH DAY 2001.

Oh, you mean the CULT OF THE ANTI-ESTABLISHMENT or something?

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Date: Wed, Apr 25, 2001 at 16:59:19 (GMT)
From: ExTex
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Ha Ha Ha
Message:
I can always count on you .... inconsistant you are not. Good one, LOL!
But of course I am consistant too... I don't like corporate run governments, don't like most governments....and I am almost always correct! LOL!
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Date: Sun, Apr 22, 2001 at 21:30:07 (GMT)
From: Francesca
Email: None
To: ExTex
Subject: Oh, liberate us please, O wise one
Message:
Go away and come back in another 3 years. I don't need to listen to Rawat, and I don't need to listen to you. Besides throwing Latvian babies we would like one of the 'get a lifers' to volunteer. We will see if we can throw the 'get a life' volunteer farther than the baby.

--f

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Date: Sun, Apr 22, 2001 at 21:39:21 (GMT)
From: JHB
Email: None
To: Francesca
Subject: Not again - what's going on?
Message:
Fransesca,

What's with the throwing Latvian babies reference? An in joke? As I said to Pat and Loaf below, it's a little tasteless. Pack it in please.

John.

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Date: Sun, Apr 22, 2001 at 22:46:58 (GMT)
From: Francesca
Email: None
To: JHB
Subject: Sorry if I offended you
Message:
Was just joking off their joke. Actually the Knowledge babies that we threw out with the charanamrit bathwater would have been a better type of baby, anyway ;-)

We're still throwing those, from the looks of it!

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Date: Sun, Apr 22, 2001 at 23:12:24 (GMT)
From: JHB
Email: None
To: Francesca
Subject: Apology accepted:-) (nt)
Message:
gfhdf
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Date: Sun, Apr 22, 2001 at 14:44:06 (GMT)
From: Katie H
Email: None
To: ExTex
Subject: Hey, ExTex
Message:
How ya doing :)?

I second what Loaf and JHB and Katie D. said.

My significant other (Brian) is the webmaster of this site. He got involved before Montrose - I got K later in the year. We DID leave and 'get a life' (sometimes TOO MUCH of a life!) but we're both committed to this site because it is still helping people a lot - we don't put testimonial letters on the site, but Brian gets a lot of them. I think it's quite worthwhile - and I think that the other long-time posters here feel the same way.

There are still people involved with the M cult that are coming here for help. It is NOT 'obviously bogus' to many people - unfortunately. Lots of new people have started posting since Michael Dettmers began posting his experiences (see home page for the link.) Some of the information that has come out on here has changed quite a few people's minds about following Maharaji.

There have been new developments re the Jagdeo child abuse incidents. I believe that these developments came about, in large part, as a result of this site and forum.

I agree that there are plenty of other bogus scenes, and good causes, that need time and energy. (I don't have your certainty that the Karmic wheel will take care of all these things, either!) However, I feel that we can (and have) made a real difference in our own lives and in other people's lives right here.

Take care,
Katie

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Date: Wed, Apr 25, 2001 at 17:15:33 (GMT)
From: ExTex
Email: None
To: Katie H
Subject: Hey, Katie H
Message:
Good points all. I was being kind of a flippant jerk in my off the cuff original posting. (See above response to Tonette) No hard feelings I hope. I was not intending to say that it was all a waste of time. I think that a hell of a lot of good has come from this site. No doubt.

I am just concerned about the amount of focus that some of us have kept on the GooMargie and his herd of turtles.... when that could actually be a part of STILL being part of the GooMargie scene... in a weird way reacting to GM negatively is still reacting, responding and being influenced by GooMargie!!! It sure is not washing one's hands of it all; moving on; getting the whole thing into the past.
Oh Well....I meant no insult.

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Date: Sun, Apr 22, 2001 at 22:14:54 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Katie H
Subject: Why DON'T you put testimonial letters up, Katie?
Message:
...we don't put testimonial letters on the site, but Brian gets a lot of them.

Any reason you guys don't share these or put them up as a matter of course? You'd think they'd be the very kinds of letters you'd want to display, no? As in others might enjoy them as well, kind of thing?

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Date: Sun, Apr 22, 2001 at 22:49:07 (GMT)
From: Francesca
Email: None
To: Jim and Katie H.
Subject: Also wondering
Message:
Aren't they kind of like journeys? What's the diff? I guess that people aren't volunteering to have them posted. As JHB suggested below, you could give them a choice to have them posted, and you could give a further choice to keep them anonymous. Do you think some of them would add to the value of the content here?
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Date: Sun, Apr 22, 2001 at 22:33:50 (GMT)
From: JHB
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: I was wondering the same
Message:
They could be posted anonymously if the senders wanted, couldn't they?

John.

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Date: Mon, Apr 23, 2001 at 02:13:06 (GMT)
From: Katie H
Email: None
To: JHB
Subject: Talk to Brian :) - he gets them (nt)
Message:
nt
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Date: Mon, Apr 23, 2001 at 12:19:59 (GMT)
From: Katie H
Email: None
To: Katie H
Subject: My further feelings about this
Message:
I have mixed feeling about this. First, some people DO post their testimonials on the forum - and anyone can if they want to. I think the people that don't may not want to see their writing in public (although John is correct that it could be done anonymously, with permission.) I have gotten some e-mails like that privately, but mostly from people who are emphatic about not posting on the forum for one reason or another - maybe other here have too.

Secondly, I don't really like the idea of only posting the 'nice' e-mails; it reminds me too much of ELK (Ex-premie 'Expressions', anyone?) Finally, it's not up to me, cause I won't have to do the work.

BTW, I did write more in my post than that one line, but oh well...

Gotta go to work!

Take care,
Katie

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Date: Mon, Apr 23, 2001 at 16:27:39 (GMT)
From: Francesca
Email: None
To: Katie H
Subject: I think you're right on this one
Message:
I usually get totally turned off by testemonials and anecdotals. But could I suggest that, if their story appears to be valuable, that you or Brian suggest that they submit it as a journey, if they feel moved to share?

Thanks for all your hard work, by the way. I'm reading 'Who Dies' and it is a very good book; thanks for recommending it.

Love, f

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Date: Tues, Apr 24, 2001 at 01:07:43 (GMT)
From: Katie H
Email: None
To: Francesca
Subject: I think you're right on this one
Message:
Hey Francesca -
Brian is ALWAYS looking for Journeys entries - don't worry! He has posted some letters when people are looking for someone (usually a lost relative), or are just really weird (Venusians, etc.)

Glad you are liking 'Who Dies' - I think it's a great book. I have liked all his other books too.

Also, I am sorry about your dad (I never communicated this to you, but you probably figured it out!). My sister's first husband (my 16-year-old nephew's father) died last month, and it brought back so many feelings for both of us about our dad's death. Mostly, we have both been trying to help my nephew - it is hard to lose a parent when you are that young! - but it's been pretty intense.

Hope your dad had a peaceful passing (I'm thankful to say that my brother-in-law did), and that you, your mother, and the rest of your family are doing all right.
Love,
Katie

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Date: Tues, Apr 24, 2001 at 05:10:34 (GMT)
From: Francesca
Email: None
To: Katie H
Subject: I think you're right on this one
Message:
My father went peaceful at the end Katie, but before that very rough going at times. But then that helps us understand he had to go. I feel for your 16-year old nephew. Another person to keep in my thoughts. Always good to have people to care about besides myself. I get boring after a while -- I know the song so well.

I post on here so darn much I haven't worked on my Journey in ages. Unfortunately, it was becoming a book. I may need to chop it down for general consumption, and write the long one for my own personal exorcism. But I'm afraid I'm going to have to do the long one because I need to do it. I could always post the long version on Geocities. Don't ask me when I'll ever finish though.

Love, f

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Date: Mon, Apr 23, 2001 at 18:49:55 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Francesca
Subject: Not me
Message:
I'm just guessing but I'd imagine that most letters come from people who come upon the site anew. They might not have even SEEN the forum, for all we know. In any event, they might consider the forum something for 'people-who-have-decided-to-post-on-the-forum' and might not see themselves in that light. Thus, they write a letter to the webmaster instead.

I thought there actually were a few letters Brian'd put up a long time ago but when I went to find them they weren't there. But letters of that kind aren't really the private kind. That is, unless the writer's made a specific point of asking for some special confidentiality or something. Come on, they're just 'letters to the editor', aren't they? I think we should all see them, the good, the bad and the ugly. Why not?

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Date: Mon, Apr 23, 2001 at 19:37:09 (GMT)
From: Francesca
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: the law would be squishy there, Jim
Message:
I know that if they were letters to a US government website, that would certainly be true; they'd be public records. But I can tell you that even government agencies would wring their hands about who they'd piss off by just posting stuff without people's knowledge. Just because it may possibly legally and technically be posted doesn't mean that it should.

I understand your point, however, about a lot of people seeing us on Forum V as a bunch of whingeing whatevers, and don't want to be considered part of the Forum. I too, though that at one time. Their input WOULD be valuable. I just don't think it would be wise for Brian or anyone to take an e-mail written to the webmaster and post it on the site. I don't know the law re private entities and e-mail or correspondence, but I think that it would be even more protected than e-mail to a public entity.

In California, here's Article I, Section I of the California Constitution:

'CALIFORNIA CONSTITUTION
ARTICLE 1 DECLARATION OF RIGHTS

SECTION 1. All people are by nature free and independent and have inalienable rights. Among these are enjoying and defending life and liberty, acquiring, possessing, and protecting property, and pursuing and obtaining safety, happiness, and privacy.'

I only know the California Public Records Act as it applies to government entities however, and do not profess to know the law re e-mail to Webmasters. I just don't think it would be a great idea to get someone pissed off at us that is already pissed off at the hamster, though. If they post on the Forum, it's fair game. I'd say that people need some sort of informed consent before their letters get put on the site. That's not from a legal point of view, just from a policy point of view, and of course that's just my 2 cents.

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Date: Mon, Apr 23, 2001 at 23:05:51 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Francesca
Subject: What's 'the law' got to do with this?
Message:
What are you talking about, Francesca? People write to a web site which, as is common, has a page with these letters, pro or con. Sometimes names are removed at the authors' request. It's so common, I can't see what all the fuss is about.

Jim

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Date: Tues, Apr 24, 2001 at 00:03:27 (GMT)
From: Francesca
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: One more thought
Message:
Some pages have letters sections, where you fill in a form and the letter is obviously for posting--plus you can see what gets done with the others like it, and there are instructions on the form. Sir Dave has similar stuff on his site where premies and ex-premies write letters looking for each other. That would be different than posting e-mails sent to the Webmastser.

I digress, but I went to Sir Dave's site it was so disgusting to read the letters by dewy eyed premies looking for lost lovers of the hamster that I almost hurled. I was afraid that some of these people would find me. Horrors! I know enough of them already.

The rest of Sir Dave's site, however, is EXCELLENT, and is worth a cruise and revisits. He's compiled important information, and the search engine is great.

Cheers, f

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Date: Mon, Apr 23, 2001 at 23:56:23 (GMT)
From: Francesca
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: More a policy thing, but you got me started
Message:
. . . when you claimed that the e-mails sent to Brian aren't considered private. I'm not sure that's true, and that's what the legal discussion was about. And like I said upside down and backwards, it doesn't matter what the law is.

Without people's permission, I think a sufficient number of people would be shocked or feel betrayed if they sent an e-mail to the Webmaster and found it posted on the site. I personally think (and again this is just my opinion) that it would be a bad idea to do that to people; especially when we have a Journeys section and a Forum section the person sending the e-mail obviously chose NOT to use.

You and I don't mind using our real names and getting up on the soapbox. But it's not for everyone. And I don't think we want to do anything to turn people off to this site who might otherwise benefit from it. It would be very easy to ask the person if the letter was OK for publication, with or without their name on it and avoid the possibility of ruffling feathers.

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Date: Sun, Apr 22, 2001 at 06:50:23 (GMT)
From: Loaf
Email: None
To: ExTex
Subject: This is now a social club with a 'mission'
Message:
sounds familiar ?

What we need are ex-premie houses where we can be more focussed perhaps. Jim and Anth and Donner and Mike Dettmers and other B list celebs can tour and inspire us... we can be invited into a the 'journey chair' to speak the truth... for it is the company of truth we seek.. still

for this place IS simply a equal and opposite black hole reversal of the culture of Elan Vital.. we are Lativ Nale - the anti-cult, M.L.D.

One day... one day we can buy our own land.... how is the fund raising appeal for Jims truss coming along ?

And how far can a Latvian baby be hurled before a drop of water is spilled ?

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Date: Sun, Apr 22, 2001 at 11:20:51 (GMT)
From: Nigel
Email: None
To: Loaf
Subject: Odd anagram: 'elan vital' = 'El Latvian'! nt
Message:
nt
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Date: Sun, Apr 22, 2001 at 22:24:43 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Nigel
Subject: 'Gratitude' = 'A tired tug' (nt)
Message:
ggggggg
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Date: Sun, Apr 22, 2001 at 22:27:38 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Synchronization = A corny shit inn Oz (Amaroo?) (n
Message:
ddddddd
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Date: Sun, Apr 22, 2001 at 19:02:30 (GMT)
From: PatC
Email: None
To: Nigel
Subject: Prempal Rawat = Pamper a trawl! Or is it Troll? NT
Message:

pamper a trawl
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Date: Sun, Apr 22, 2001 at 17:49:33 (GMT)
From: Kelly
Email: None
To: Nigel
Subject: Hi Elgin! Where do you keep your marbles?
Message:
You surely haven't lost them again have you?
That's hilarious. Elan Vital = El Latvian.
Same old song, just a different 'Singh er'
Don't forget his whole name is
Prem Pal Singh Rawat.
It all makes sense now, thanks to those who have published the Indian Roots etc.
Sikh and you will find!
Kelly
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Date: Sun, Apr 22, 2001 at 19:06:21 (GMT)
From: PatC
Email: None
To: Kelly
Subject: Radhasoamis: this ''road is a sham'' NT
Message:
asi

road is a ham

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Date: Sun, Apr 22, 2001 at 11:25:09 (GMT)
From: janet
Email: None
To: Nigel
Subject: Odd anagram: 'elan vital' = 'El Latvian'! nt
Message:
hey-- why not? we are them, just significantly rearranged in a different order. we could even make a logo from that. or a graphic morph.

where's postie? he can do it

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Date: Sun, Apr 22, 2001 at 18:58:37 (GMT)
From: PatC
Email: None
To: janet
Subject: Maharaji = A hair jam! Like a fur ball? Cough! NT
Message:
ahari

jam

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Date: Sun, Apr 22, 2001 at 19:32:07 (GMT)
From: Kelly
Email: None
To: PatC
Subject: Keep your furry balls outa here Pat C, nt
Message:
cnt
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Date: Sun, Apr 22, 2001 at 06:22:46 (GMT)
From: JHB
Email: None
To: ExTex
Subject: What's it all about, Alfy?
Message:
ExTex,

In case you haven't noticed, the cult is still in existence, people are still trapped in it, and people are still extricating themselves from it. Many of the current contributors have only escaped in the last 6 months, and no doubt others are reading this now, and just beginning to seriously consider the possibility that they are in a cult.

So I for one am really glad that the posters who were here two and a half years ago when I first started reading here hadn't taken your advice and moved on.

John.

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Date: Sun, Apr 22, 2001 at 07:24:26 (GMT)
From: PatC
Email: None
To: JHB
Subject: Amen Brother Loaf and Squire John
Message:
Loaf,

When do we hold the first annual Latvian Baby Throwing Contest?

John the landed gentleman,

Yes, some of us have just started talking our way out of the cult right here with your help and the help of the old-timers who haven't got bored with us yet.

Thanks to all of you.

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Date: Sun, Apr 22, 2001 at 10:15:40 (GMT)
From: JHB
Email: None
To: PatC
Subject: Enough of throwing Latvian babies!
Message:
Somewhat tasteless I think, Loaf and Pat.

But speaking of land, I have 100 acres of fine Latvian forest and grazing land. OK, so it's not the 1700 acres that the Master Baiter (thanks Such!) has in Amascrew, but I don't yet have the thousands of mugs sending me their monthly tithes.

But land here costs between 25-50 USD an acre, so get those cheques in and we'll soon have a venue to rival Amascrew!

John who is planning to have some Latvian babies but needs to find a woman first.

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Date: Mon, Apr 23, 2001 at 01:07:54 (GMT)
From: PatC
Email: None
To: JHB
Subject: We meant obese middle-aged Hindu babies! NT
Message:
l
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Date: Mon, Apr 23, 2001 at 06:52:16 (GMT)
From: Loaf
Email: None
To: PatC
Subject: But the bathwater... its precious and holy ! (nt)
Message:
lol very funny post Pat :0)
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Date: Mon, Apr 23, 2001 at 09:10:55 (GMT)
From: PatC
Email: None
To: Loaf
Subject: the bathwater... we'll drink it at San Francisco
Message:
Pigeon Fanciers' Club Night on June the second. You're invited and bring the two mooing people or should I say cooing?
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Date: Sun, Apr 22, 2001 at 09:22:38 (GMT)
From: Katie Darling
Email: None
To: PatC
Subject: Ex-Tex, ole friend
Message:
I'm willing to respond to your point (although I'm going to do it from memory rather than quoting you).

I've got a life. Big involvements with many community projects and service work and relationships including a great marriage and lots of close friends with whom I have many hobbies. Posting on this forum is only a tiny piece of it. The value for me is many-fold:

First, I get a fun hobby to distract me from the many layers work I do (like writing a book) on my computer. It's my first experience of getting to know people online and it's quite fascinating and compelling, I must admit. I am drawn into it as an amazing experiment. Some of the writing is brilliant and funny and some of it is inane and a bit like 'the old days,' in that anything out of a particular party-line viewpoint is attacked ferociously. I just live around those parts, as in life.

Second: I have been an ex-premie for 17 years, and barely think about mJ at all. However, there were certain intense layers of programming that occurred in the cult that somehow affected my nervous system and body in such a way as to make me chronically ill for over 20 years, and I am deliberately exploring the recapitulation of some of the stuff as a means of recovering my health by sourcing where it went off the rails. It is helping quite a bit, I think, and I think other people are involved in similar projects some minor, some more major, here.

Third: I'm very interested in helping people extract themselves from MJ's world if it has become limiting and fear-based, and recently I have been inspired to stay around here as so many premies have plopped in here with a lot of gratitude, and often with a real need for loving interaction, and I enjoy providing that.

I acknowledge that there are some long-term regular posters here who seem to 'live' here. I don't think they are exactly obsessed with MJ. I think this forum and bringing MJ to justice is their chosen hobby. Coulda been Ma Jong. There are times when I react and have somewhat similar judgments to those you express above. I don't see myself being here forever. But I don't think I will leave in a fit of resistance, because in my experience that usually means I have more business to complete with the resisted thang.

love Katie Darling

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Date: Wed, Apr 25, 2001 at 17:27:01 (GMT)
From: ExTex
Email: None
To: Katie Darling
Subject: Ex-Tex,Caves In
Message:
I fall like a house of cards in response to that LOVELY posting. Thanks. Well put .....
The point of my original post was directed at 'some long-term regular posters here who seem to 'live' here'...
In my abrasive way I was trying to show concern.
I didn't make that very obvious, did I?
Sorry.
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Date: Mon, Apr 23, 2001 at 05:11:30 (GMT)
From: a0aji
Email: None
To: Katie Darling
Subject: I thought -you- were Ma Jong! -nt-
Message:
-nt-
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Date: Sun, Apr 22, 2001 at 22:51:43 (GMT)
From: Francesca
Email: None
To: Katie Darling
Subject: Great post, Katie D
Message:
Wish we could auto respond it to the 'get a life' crew. Actually, we should have about 10 of them that have been posted over time.

Love 'ya --f

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Date: Sun, Apr 22, 2001 at 15:30:48 (GMT)
From: Katie H.
Email: None
To: Katie Darling
Subject: Katie D - your recent posts...
Message:
...about the past have been amazing! Are you 'recovering' these memories, or what? (Just wondering!). Hope it's helpful to you to write these posts - they have helped me understand a lot of what went on behind the scenes.

Love,
Katie

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Date: Mon, Apr 23, 2001 at 03:03:38 (GMT)
From: Katie Darling
Email: None
To: Katie H.
Subject: Recovered memories
Message:
ha ha ha hah a

No, not recovered memories. Boy, I've got massive amounts of these kinds of things in my brain. I had a rather varied premie career, from ashram premie to instructor assistant sent around the world, to IHQ drone, to married-to-a-rich-premie special front row premie, to ex-premie helping lots of other people exit. I never even thought that the stuff about the Malibu instructors' training was that interesting, but now I'm realizing how many such weird spaces I lived in.

Thank you to all my fans,

love, katie the darling

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Date: Tues, Apr 24, 2001 at 01:31:37 (GMT)
From: Katie H
Email: None
To: Katie Darling
Subject: You and other SF/LA exes should write it up!
Message:
I've been reading what you have written here, and what Joe has written, and what Pat C. and Francesca and others have written - it is fascinating - especially because of all the different viewpoints. Y'all should consider collaborating on a co-authored 'Journey' - it would be very interesting (and not only to ex-premies.)

Love,
Katie

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Date: Tues, Apr 24, 2001 at 01:43:54 (GMT)
From: PatC
Email: None
To: Katie H
Subject: A collaboration needs and editor, Katie. You game?
Message:
I don't know about a joint Journey but perhaps an anthology of stories surrounding the time that we were all knew each other in the cult. Like Rashomon. Same time frame described by Joe, Joy, Francesca, Chuck, Wildflower and me. But maybe Katie D should be editor since she is here now eventhough she was not in SF 20 years ago.
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Date: Tues, Apr 24, 2001 at 02:01:19 (GMT)
From: Katie Darling
Email: None
To: PatC
Subject: Not me, I NEED an editor
Message:
I've been going through quite a few editors for my book. They end up worse writers than me! In fact, come to think of it, Katie H.or even Pat, you are both articulate. Want the job? Know anyone?
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Date: Tues, Apr 24, 2001 at 02:38:07 (GMT)
From: PatC
Email: None
To: Katie Darling
Subject: What's your book about?
Message:
If you don't want to talk about it that's fine. You can tell me in private. I'm working on four at present myself so I can't offer my services but I wouldn't mind talking to you about your project.
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Date: Tues, Apr 24, 2001 at 05:16:27 (GMT)
From: Katie Darling
Email: None
To: PatC
Subject: What's your book about?
Message:
Yes, definitely offline. I have 4 book projects too, but one which is the principle one with potential publishers and all. I'd love to talk to you about it.

I'm going to Hawaii on Thursday (to work) for two weeks, so I may not see you before Pigeon Fanciers' Night. Still got flu.

Much love

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Date: Tues, Apr 24, 2001 at 07:26:35 (GMT)
From: PatC
Email: None
To: Katie Darling
Subject: Well I hope you will be near the sea in Hawaii
Message:
So you can breathe plenty of germ-killing ozone. I hardly ever had colds or flu when I went swimming or surfing everyday in Durban and now if I get one I just walk down to the beach but of course I can't swim as you know - turn blue in 10 minutes in that freezing Pacific.
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Date: Mon, Apr 23, 2001 at 09:14:28 (GMT)
From: PatC
Email: None
To: Katie Darling
Subject: Recherchez du Temps Perdu
Message:
Just had to say it eventhough I hate Proust. He used to masturbate while poking rats with knitting needles.
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Date: Sun, Apr 22, 2001 at 21:12:45 (GMT)
From: Lesley
Email: None
To: Katie H.
Subject: plopping in to add my testimonial, and ex-tex
Message:
Sure, this isn't the only scam running, but it is the one that caught me, and it is the one I therefore feel responsible to do something about.

Having said that, I would suggest that the 'receptors' into which the M & K scam fitted were there thanks to christianity and god worship in general, so I talk about that too.

Best Regards, Lesley

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Date: Sun, Apr 22, 2001 at 04:58:21 (GMT)
From: Peter Premie
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: I love to tell the story, of M and all his glory..
Message:
I just wanted to share some of my feelings with all of you.
I love to share with everyone, because the gratitude for the gift of participation is so inspiring.

Lately, I have been talking with some of my colleagues at work, but some of them have given me funny looks after hearing some of my inspiring heart felt comments.

I always wonder where I should start, what should I say?

For instance, the other day, I shared these feelings with some fellow employees:

I think you should really check out this knowledge.
You will be very fortunate to get it to work for you.

I most enthusiastically recommend my teacher with no qualifications whatsoever.

I urge you to waste no time in considering him as your teacher too!

I can assure you that no person would be better as your teacher.

All in all, I cannot say enough good things about my teacher or recommend him too highly.

His hand picked instructors are really special. I am pleased to say that many of them are former colleagues of mine.

Finally, I believe that some of the instructors are men of many convictions.

I don't know...they didn't really appreciate my inspirational talks with them.
Some of them kind of snickered at me.
Do you think I should tone down the satsang a bit?

Just wondering,
Peter Premie
(maybe I need a training or two)

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Date: Tues, Apr 24, 2001 at 07:33:45 (GMT)
From: DeProGram Anand Ji
Email: not given
To: Peter Premie
Subject: I love to tell the story, of M and all his glory..
Message:
You need tone down your satsang to the vibrational or subliminal level , you do this by choking yourself with your own tounge (nectar technique) while consentrating on the holy name (breath) .
You won't be able to speak while doing this but if done in the right way
you won't experience that same feeling of rejection and alienation. In time everyone will notice how enlightned you have become and seek out your wisdom and advice.

Oh one more thing, while practicing this technique don't hold your breath!

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Date: Sun, Apr 22, 2001 at 14:19:31 (GMT)
From: Kelly
Email: None
To: Peter Premie
Subject: Peter Premie,you're just not synchronised.
Message:
Peter,
Don't you remember Mwaji's Twainings, where he said how it would be really good if everyone talked about nollige the same way and to quote him exactly, he said...

Maharaji…. “Let me put it very simply. Are you, in your own self, content with not having to define Maharaji? Maharaji is Maharaji. So how comfortable are you with not having to define Maharaji? That’s the real question, are you comfortable with that? '

So, you see Peter, you really have been trying too hard and have been complicating the simplistic message of the master. Mwaji is the master of simplicity. Mwaji is Mwaji. That's all you need to tell people. Are you comfortable with that?

So, you really must tone it down. These outrageous claims , like 'there is a master and he has this knowledge' is just so over the top. You are raising peoples expectations to unrealisable levels. Next thing, you'll be telling them that' breath is a powerful thing' How do you think they will handle that?

Team member no 507
Kelly

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Date: Sun, Apr 22, 2001 at 14:24:52 (GMT)
From: Marianne
Email: None
To: Kelly
Subject: Kelly girl, where've you been? ot
Message:
What's happening with you? Next time our paths cross, looks like it will be in the states.
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Date: Sun, Apr 22, 2001 at 13:19:56 (GMT)
From: Tim Matheson
Email: None
To: Peter Premie
Subject: to Peter P and other active PwKS only
Message:
Well said Peter. As OUR LORD MAHARAJI has told us over and over and as recently as last night in my nightly darshan dream, ''Just because it looks like a pig and oinks like a pig, doesn't mean it is a pig.'' What good does it do us to be ashamed of HIS BEHAVIOR>

The MAYA is all around us. All we can do is hold on to those ADORABLE LOTUS FEETS of YOU KNOW WHO !!

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Date: Sun, Apr 22, 2001 at 11:32:44 (GMT)
From: toby
Email: None
To: Peter Premie
Subject: I love to tell the story, of M and all his glory..
Message:
Hi Peter ,
I think you are doing great and no instructor has the right to block you.
With your experience it is your duty to introduce yourself to
Maharaji, no matter how difficult it might be.
So go to Malibu or where ever he might just be now ,and
find out the grace and compassion he has for you and how
much he acceppts your devotion and service that you offer.

I mean, what you just wrote ,if it is really real, you must go.

Otherwise it is just a dream that will nerver manifest.

toby

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Date: Sun, Apr 22, 2001 at 11:14:36 (GMT)
From: SB
Email: None
To: Peter Premie
Subject: Yes, shut up!
Message:
Look. Why talk about what you don't know? To this point of your involvement you don't have an idea of what hits you, so, why talk?

Involvement in a cult destroy your perceptions and makes you see all backwards. Why advertize craziness, just because you are not able any longer to see what the involvement does to you? Not fair! mahalard did a number in your head and now you think you know. What do you know? That you have become a cult member? He is no lord Peter. Trust me. Just a fat greedy guru.

WAKE UP!

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Date: Sun, Apr 22, 2001 at 22:10:24 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: SB
Subject: Couldn't you tell this was a joke? Sheesh! (nt)
Message:
ffffffff
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Date: Mon, Apr 23, 2001 at 00:53:32 (GMT)
From: Peter Premie
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Thanks Jim.Each statement has double meaning.nt
Message:
bb
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Date: Mon, Apr 23, 2001 at 01:23:29 (GMT)
From: Cynthia
Email: None
To: Peter Premie
Subject: Yeah, Really, Uh, Duh......n/t
Message:
n/t
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Date: Sun, Apr 22, 2001 at 07:30:34 (GMT)
From: Luke Pewk
Email: None
To: Peter Premie
Subject: You ask: should you tone down your satsang? YES!
Message:
SHUT UP!

You're just giving the aspirants concepts about YKW (You Know Who, otherwise known as the Speaker.)

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Date: Sun, Apr 22, 2001 at 12:50:53 (GMT)
From: la-ex
Email: None
To: All
Subject: Irony deficiency here-if you read each comment...
Message:
very carefully,you will see a completely different meaning than the one you might think of at first....

For instance,'I can assure that no person would be better as your teacher', or 'I urge you to waste no time in considering him as your teacher'....

Read them twice, and carefully...

Cut, Pete, cute...

(Are you related to Pauline?)

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Date: Sun, Apr 22, 2001 at 04:28:02 (GMT)
From: la-ex
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: has anyone heard about the new k trainings?
Message:
I heard the other day that there are new knowledge presentation trainings for the pwk's to go through.
The community must have a minimum of 50 pwk's signed up at a cost of about$75-100 each to go through the training.

The 'training' takes 2 full days and is run by a certified trainer from ev.

This is to educate pwk's on how to bring people to k.

Does anyone know someone who has crashed one of these events?

I was told that anyone, however marginal, is invited to attend.
Some communities are finding it hard to find 50 warm bodies willing to give up a weekend for the training, anyone is welcome.

What can they possibly cover in 2 days?
How weird is this thing gonna get?

Mavbe we should take up a small collection and sponsor someone to go and report back. It might not be too hard to do.

I don't think I could stomach it right now...anyone else feel up for it?

Also, I heard that only 3,000 signed up for analroo...

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Date: Sun, Apr 22, 2001 at 17:31:00 (GMT)
From: Kelly
Email: None
To: la-ex
Subject: has anyone heard about the new k trainings?
Message:
Hi ex-lax,

The recent, ie July and Sept 2000, trainings at Atlanta (July) and Amaroo, (Sept) were planned to be recorded on DVD and Video and disseminated throughout the fiefdom. ' so that everyone can know how to present knowledge throughout the whole world'
As you know, I transcribed a few excerpts from that broadcast, it was my next to final 'drip' (See 'Best of forum' 'Miragey's recent diatribe') I was watching it again today to catch a quote for a friend who just couldn't believe he had really said things like.....

'Maharaji… “Knowledge, and all things associated with it, are compliments of the Master.
The Master doesn’t want knowledge sessions to happen, Guess what? They’re not happening.
The Master changes the rules, creates the rules, disposes of these rules, as the Master wishes.
The possibility of knowledge is brought to you by the compliments of your friendly Master.'

I really don't have to make any effort to expose the fundamental failings of this fallacious f**ing master. He, only has to open his mouth, and , you dear premies, only have to open your minds..... to make the connection.

Once a devotee, now a free thinking human being!( well, on the way, anyway!)
Kelly

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Date: Mon, Apr 23, 2001 at 18:04:49 (GMT)
From: Francesca
Email: None
To: Kelly
Subject: Just read that Miragey thread
Message:
Great stuff. All the premies posting their blather on this Forum are his worst nightmare! Or so he said. I'm sure you remember this:

Whatever we forge for the future, we have to remember.. where.. we.. came from, and we have to remember, most importantly, how incredibly dangerous, incredibly dangerous, this stuff is….. Shooting your mouth off is not innocent by any stretch of the imagination….What you say in your…fuzzy feeling…you know what I mean…fuzzy feeling? When you’re feeling nice and oooh sooo inspired, can be deadly dangerous. What you say cannot have any tolerance for mistakes…..What do you think?….Does this far of the history make any sense? And why I’m bringing this up? Because I see you in the same shoes. There’s a lot more of you than there were of them…..Comprende?…..Just playing Russian roulette with a lot more guns. Your chances go up. I don’t want to be in those shoes. I don’t think these mistakes have to happen and I don’t think these mistakes need to be there”

This was the 'button your lip' talk. It's so sick. Convince everyone you are god incarnate, that everything is up to him, and then tell people that they'd better not tell anyone that in their own words, or it would be bad PR. I mean scary. My exit was around the time that ordinary PWKs were forbidden to give satsang (1985). Only instructors and those specially ordained could do so. And sastang could only be in certain places, and certainly not in people's homes. And the instructor would be the only one who could orchestrate or organize this stuff, for fear that it wouldn't follow the lard's specifications. My husband and I smelled that skunk in the middle of the road that Nige talks about in the thread above. Big time. We were outta there. I no longer saw it as agya. I saw it as suspicious manipulation, pure and simple. The yuppie image, the sterile programs in banks with satsang done by automatons who were once real people.

Priceless stuff. Blessings on your little typing fingers for that one!

love, f

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Date: Tues, Apr 24, 2001 at 20:28:54 (GMT)
From: Kelly
Email: karen@ringrose.org.uk
To: Francesca
Subject: Just read that Miragey thread
Message:
Hi Francesca,
Just read your posts! It's a strange life on this forum, sometimes I have time to read everything, then days go by, and I lose touch. The worst of it is when I do finally join in, something comes up the next day and I can't stick around to even continue a conversation. Sometimes it must appear very rude!

Anyway, thanks for your responses. I have that broadcast in it's entirety but it is so cut about and edited that it wouldn't make much sense to transcribe it. However, I have others, like the Harrogate UK event last Sept, which I watched again recently. It is shocking. In between pouring scorn on all and sundry he talks absolute drivel. I'll get down to doing some transcribing soon.
I really think the man is condemned out of his own mouth. He does a better job than we could ever do! It really is hard to come to terms with the fact that I swallowed it for so long.

Love Kelly

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Date: Sun, Apr 22, 2001 at 18:52:27 (GMT)
From: Francesca
Email: notinherent@yahoo.com
To: Kelly
Subject: Great one, Kelly
Message:
You are a great contribution to this Forum, and continue to be. I will look up that thread, because now you've intrigued me. I don't get to read them all because we have to be selective or we'd spend all day on the computer. I hope that the entire broadcast can be transcribed someday for us, by someone. If the sound track was made into a cassette tape, I'd be willing to help.

We old war horses have to do our thing, deconstruct, dredge up the lies, warn others about the rocks under 'his ocean,' but what he is saying currently is vitally important, so your information is extremely helpful. Otherwise, all I can say is that he lied and he drank, up to, er 1987. But then what? That's 14 years ago! Though he probably hasn't stopped, he can certainly assert that he has.

And congratulations on your new found freedom. I just crawled out of another reigion (Tibetan Buddhism) myself. I am allergic to them right now, although I sitll think meditation is of value. The way I rate the value of it is whether it makes me kinder to others and expands my view outside of myself to everything I can perceive, instead of just myself and my reactions. But that can go too far also. I read a great essay in Inquiring Mind (a Buddhist magazine) last night by a 20-year Zen practitioner, the editor of a well-known Buddhist journal, Turning Wheel. She said that she was going through a crisis because of rejection by a lover, and actually needed a sense of self to get through it. The rejection and her feeling of nothingness was becoming a crisis. At one point she left a Zen meditation session, went to Tilden Park in Berkeley and rolled down a hill until the sticks and stones scratched her and poked her to feel her own existence. The zen meditation where she was losing her sense of self was only making it worse, and I don't think she'll ever go back to it in the same way.

My pattern in life was to get schnookered by those who claimed to know god better than I did, and I would be a good doggie, and then rebel. (Catholic church, Knowledge (in and out twice), Tibetan Buddhism.) I am back to the smorgie, and yes you bastard Rawat, I am enjoying life, thank you, and I am also hating it, depending upon what's on my plate. The good thing is that it doesn't matter whether I love it or hate it, or like the way I'm reacting or don't like it. It's it, and that's that. I'd rather accept it than stuff it.

And it is really nice to wake up in the morning knowing that I no longer have to meditate, or have a 'practice' in order to be a human being. In some ways, I am better without it. I have a great devil's advocate at work who is the most kind and caring person to her family. She derailed her entire career at one point because her sister was dying. But she can't stand religion, and she thinks that people who meditate are self-absorbed and selfish. She keeps me honest. I can see how holier-than-thou I was about it now. Like if I meditated it was sacred, and more important than something someone else was doing. What a sick value judgment and a load of rubbish! What right have I! I'm amazed that people loved me anyway.

Thanks again Kelly. Love, f

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Date: Sun, Apr 22, 2001 at 18:09:18 (GMT)
From: Marianne
Email: None
To: Kelly
Subject: Uh, I think EV is associated with knowledge
Message:
So Captain Rawat says: 'Knowledge, and all things associated with it, are compliments of the Master.'

Now try to tell us how you have nothing to do with Elan Vital, Captain. And also explain exactly what the 'Master' bit means, would you?

You are a walking dream for any skillful cross-examiner, Captain Rawat. And so is anyone who insists that Elan Vital and DLM are unrelated.

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Date: Sun, Apr 22, 2001 at 18:50:27 (GMT)
From: Kelly
Email: None
To: Marianne
Subject: Uh, I think EV is associated with knowledge
Message:
Uh, I think you're write! You really have to be stooopid in the extreme, to follow this guy. Shirley his middle name is Sue.
Do I know him?
Kelly (the androgenous)
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Date: Sun, Apr 22, 2001 at 07:48:17 (GMT)
From: PatC
Email: None
To: la-ex
Subject: The Citywide ''Particpation Team'' arranging
Message:
the ''Introduction to Knowledge'' Propagation Trainings in the Bay Area is by invitation only. That is where these things are discussed.

A bit of a non-sequitur here: A recent fundraising event held in Marin County attracted 70 PWKs from a metropolis of over 5 million. It was also by invitation only and the Haight crusty premies were not invited (the church-ladies don't like BO.) This is the SmartCard set, basically really lovely people.

Another n-s: Last year the keyword for the city Participation Teams was ''enthusiasm.'' God knows I had it a year ago and tried to get a bit going. This stemmed from Rev Moon Lighting as a Pilot Rawat's speech of 1999 in which he said: ''We now have the technology to make any type of propagation materials but what we need is to have the technology of the nineties combined with the enthusiasm of the seventies.''

Well, the enthusiasm in anemic not only because the PWKs are middle-aged mortgagees with teenagers and favorite TV shows but because there isn't a lot to be enthusiastic about.

The fact is that PWKs are just like anybody else: either they aren't especially happy and therefore don't have anything to tell anybody anyway or they are quite contented and have realized that they have brought about their own contentment with their own effort and hard work and therefore they cannot sing the praises of an outside agent such as YKW.

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Date: Sun, Apr 22, 2001 at 16:14:50 (GMT)
From: Francesca
Email: None
To: PatC
Subject: Good information and astute comments
Message:
As a member of the 'Citywide Participation Team' in your days of 'enthusiasm,' did you even get invited to one of these? Did you actually go, and what happened the?

I'm just wondering if they roll out corporate training type of premies -- working for free (as service) but charging the premies who come, of course -- to give those 'team building' type of pep talks and new strategies for approaching people. I would think that if they roll out something too corporate-training like bizarre, only people with certain types of jobs, making certain types of money would relate to that type of BS or at least be familiar with it. In other words, with the Haight crowd, it isn't just the BO. I don't think some of them would buy the BS.

One of the purposes of that corporate training stuff (besides just the dissipation of energy so that others can do the hatchet job) is to have employees get a new or fresh point of view (even if nothing's actually changed) that, in theory at least, helps them be more effective. (The corporate trainers call these new ideas 'tools' or something like that.) So the training may give the PWKs that are doing 'propagation' some fresh encouragement, but they are only going to go out and beat the same dead horse. I mean, if they've been around for years (and many have), how many more friends and relatives can you either alienate, indoctrinate, or come to a truce on the whole thing with? And as you say, how may of these friends and relatives see that these yuppies got where they got because of their smarts and innovative ideas, hard work, and possibly ability to kiss high arse?

--F

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Date: Mon, Apr 23, 2001 at 17:56:23 (GMT)
From: PatC
Email: None
To: Francesca
Subject: Yes, Francesca, I was invited but
Message:
Just knowing that it was exclusive and secretive was the proverbial last straw that broke this camel's back. I resigned the week before the Bay Area Wide Team meeting took place.
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Date: Sun, Apr 22, 2001 at 04:18:02 (GMT)
From: Francesca
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: A poem for the mindless ones
Message:
Larkin has inspired me to add some of my own turds of unwisdom to this site. Enjoy! (Or not -- I can't help you there!)

Whoopee Ti-yi-yo, you mindless ones

I am the devil's advocate
and this I can't deny
It's fun to tell my story
and expose the guru's lie

In all the world's religions
followers are somewhat hosed
especially where you end up
a-kissin' someone's toes

He says your mind's your enemy
public, number one
One way to turn it off, I guess
is a bullet and a gun

You can fight it 'till the day you die
it's here and then it's gone
But if you don't make friends with it
it won't leave you alone

But the guru says your mind is bad
his philosophy is grim
His solution is to turn it off
and start believing him

He insinuates you're hopeless
but he'll show you the way
Just remember that you're breathing
and the problems go away

The cognitive dissonance
will soon get so intense
The world becomes your enemy –
jump in the guru's fence

He says you're in his shelter now
and he say this even though
The only thing he's good at
is extracting people's dough

His lovers and his liquor
his Radhasoami lies
His empire and his waistline
yes, it's all gaining size

So leave your mind on the borderline
of sanity, and then
it won't be long, keep hanging on –
the guru is your friend

Just bring your US dollars
and drag your friends to 'vids'
Don't tell him his instructors
like having sex with kids

Where never was heard a discouraging word
on the great Australian range
Whoopee ti-yi yo, you mindless ones
your guru's pretty strange

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Date: Mon, Apr 23, 2001 at 01:04:28 (GMT)
From: PatC
Email: None
To: Francesca
Subject: Singing yiyi yippee yippee yi
Message:
My favorite line is:

Don't tell him his instructors
like having sex with kids

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Date: Sun, Apr 22, 2001 at 07:47:30 (GMT)
From: suchabanana
Email: None
To: Francesca
Subject: So, throw 'em a bone, where the wallabes roam! (nt
Message:
nt
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Date: Sat, Apr 21, 2001 at 22:22:34 (GMT)
From: JHB
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: Masturbation
Message:
When I lived in Manchester having decided to give up university for a life of seeking after truth, I was living in a bedsit (one room with shared kitchen and bathroom). My neighbour, who went on to become relatively successful, was an avant-garde musician, and I was telling him my immature theories about the purpose of life, and I cited the yogi reaching self realisation in a cave as something to aim for. He referred to this as no different to masturbation.

I hadn't thought about this for a long time, and the reactions below to my descriptions of some of the highs I've had strangely reminded me of this.

So, is there a difference between meditation and masturbation (apart from the different techniques)? Both are personal and private. Both can give pleasure (although masturbation is more consistent for me). Neither provide any help to society. And both lead nowhere else by any measure I am aware of.

So are we all a bunch of wankers?

John.

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Date: Sun, Apr 22, 2001 at 07:55:07 (GMT)
From: suchabanana
Email: None
To: JHB
Subject: The personality cult is,like, 'MASTERbation'!
Message:
However, the only one getting his jollies off is the Master Baiter -- 'you-know-who'! haha
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Date: Sun, Apr 22, 2001 at 05:56:01 (GMT)
From: Mel Bourne
Email: None
To: JHB
Subject: Masturbation
Message:
JHB

Masturbation involves sexual activity as, no doubt, some meditation techniques might as well. The techniques of Knowledge, however, don't and therefore can't be defined in that way.

If you extended the definition of 'masturbation' to any activity that gave someone pleasure (other than just sexual pleasure), then playing cricket, collecting stamps, gardening and riding horses would qualify (although the latter may qualify with the current definition, anyway).

Mel

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Date: Sun, Apr 22, 2001 at 10:07:05 (GMT)
From: JHB
Email: None
To: Mel Bourne
Subject: The serious point about this
Message:
The subject arose before I'd heard of Maharaji in that conversation with my neighbour. We were talking about the meaning and purpose of life, and I believed that the purpose was self-realisation. OK, so after 30 years of this particular Maharaji trip, no one has come up with any evidence that 'realising knowledge' has any meaning.

So what does 'self-realisation' mean? Well, if it means anything then it's having a better understanding of oneself. OK, that's unarguably a laudable aim, but it's very debatable as to whether it's the purpose of life. Which 'reduces' the purpose of life, to my own personal purpose in life. Feel love, happiness, have a secure, safe home, be close to my friends and family, and use whatever talents I have to do something worthwhile, as well as trying to understand myself better.

So how do meditation and masturbation come into this? Only that they both can help me feel good for a while, but both can and, IMO should, play only a small part in building the sort of life I want.

So I guess I'm addressing this to those of you who place meditation, and the feelings you get from meditation, in a higher regard than I now do. Does meditation deserve that lofty position in your thoughts?

John.

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Date: Mon, Apr 23, 2001 at 00:40:48 (GMT)
From: Francesca
Email: None
To: JHB
Subject: Here's a part of a post to Kelly, above by me
Message:
on this very point:

... I just crawled out of another religion (Tibetan Buddhism) myself. I am allergic to them right now, although I sitll think meditation is of value. The way I rate the value of it is whether it makes me kinder to others and expands my view outside of myself to everything I can perceive, instead of just myself and my reactions. But that can go too far also. I read a great essay in Inquiring Mind (a Buddhist magazine) last night by a 20-year Zen practitioner, the editor of a well-known Buddhist journal, Turning Wheel. She said that she was going through a crisis because of rejection by a lover, and actually needed a sense of self to get through it. The rejection and her feeling of nothingness was becoming a crisis. At one point she left a Zen meditation session, went to Tilden Park in Berkeley and rolled down a hill until the sticks and stones scratched her and poked her to feel her own existence. The zen meditation where she was losing her sense of self was only making it worse, and I don't think she'll ever go back to it in the same way.

My pattern in life was to get schnookered by those who claimed to know god better than I did, and I would be a good doggie, and then rebel. (Catholic church, Knowledge (in and out twice), Tibetan Buddhism.) I am back to the smorgie, and yes you bastard Rawat, I am enjoying life, thank you, and I am also hating it, depending upon what's on my plate. The good thing is that it doesn't matter whether I love it or hate it, or like the way I'm reacting or don't like it. It's it, and that's that. I'd rather accept it than stuff it.

And it is really nice to wake up in the morning knowing that I no longer have to meditate, or have a 'practice' in order to be a human being. In some ways, I am better without it. I have a great devil's advocate at work who is the most kind and caring person to her family. She derailed her entire career at one point because her sister was dying. But she can't stand religion, and she thinks that people who meditate are self-absorbed and selfish. She keeps me honest. I can see how holier-than-thou I was about it now. Like if I meditated it was sacred, and more important than something someone else was doing. What a sick value judgment and a load of rubbish! What right have I! I'm amazed that people loved me anyway.

Yes, it is the discussions on this forum, and with my friends and family, along with my own particular stew at the moment, that has caused me to question all of this 'meditation' stuff. And the great inquisition has only begun. Major assumptions are going out the window lately.

Thanks for bringing this up again.

Love, f
Francesca

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Date: Sun, Apr 22, 2001 at 15:35:13 (GMT)
From: Mel Bourne
Email: None
To: JHB
Subject: The serious point about this
Message:
JHB

'Does meditation deserve that lofty position in your thoughts?'

In short, 'yes'.

Why? As well as occassional feelings of peace and wellbeing, there is another spin off for me. One of the conventional goals of meditation in Buddhist thought is the development of positive qualities like patience, compassion and the like which could not really be classified as spiritual in a 'nirvana' or 'realising Knowledge' sense. But I've found over the years as a result of the practice that I am really no different from anyone else. So what?

The patient practice of constantly trying to focus and then refocus my attention on the technique shows me that my thoughts are constantly there and they will probably always be, but it has also made me an observer of my own thought processes and emotional reactions to the situations that arise in my life. Through the practice, I've learnt to be patient with myself, and because I see that my thought processes etc, are essentially the same as other people's, hopefully patient with them too.

I believe compassion is based on the ability to see other people's situations as similar to your own so observing and your own reactions to the world around you helps you understand other peoples reactions too. A deeper understanding of who we are, how we operate and how we relate can obviously make all our lives easier.

As for the 'merging with the Infinite' and all that kind of stuff, who knows? I certainly don't, but I guess that will take care of itself if its meant to happen.

I don't claim that that other meditations would not help in developing these qualities, but certainly the 'Knowledge' techniques are the only one's that I am using and they seem to suffice. Although I don't profess constant 'patience or compassion', I believe that my behaviour might be a little worse if I did not practice.

Anyway this is what I've 'realised' and that's the reason I value it so much.

Mel

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Date: Mon, Apr 23, 2001 at 16:01:00 (GMT)
From: Gerry
Email: None
To: Mel Bourne
Subject: Thanks Mel, you just pointed out
Message:
how utterly worthless Nollidge is. If a little more compassion and patience are the benefits of years of 'practise' and 'graditude' then dude, I'd say you've been had. What makes you think you would not have developed these qualities to the extent you have, without meditation?
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Date: Tues, Apr 24, 2001 at 08:14:58 (GMT)
From: Mel Bourne
Email: None
To: Gerry
Subject: Thanks Mel, you just pointed out
Message:
Gerry

What makes you think you would not have developed these qualities to the extent you have, without meditation?

Why, absolutely nothing, how would I really know? (but I have been meditating!)

Mel

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Date: Mon, Apr 23, 2001 at 00:42:56 (GMT)
From: Francesca
Email: None
To: Mel Bourne
Subject: A good, honest post, Mel. Thanks! n/t
Message:
n/t
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Date: Sun, Apr 22, 2001 at 20:04:25 (GMT)
From: JHB
Email: None
To: Mel Bourne
Subject: The serious point about this
Message:
Although I don't profess constant 'patience or compassion', I believe that my behaviour might be a little worse if I did not practice.

Mel,

Thanks for your nonest reply. So you admit that you don't really know whether your behaviour would be better or worse if you didn't practice these particular methods of meditation.

All the best,

John.

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Date: Sun, Apr 22, 2001 at 02:52:45 (GMT)
From: Bazza
Email: None
To: JHB
Subject: That's why people join a cult
Message:
There's no difference 'doing it yourself' whether meditation or masturbation, but at least when you join a cult you stand a better chance of getting screwed!
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Date: Sun, Apr 22, 2001 at 01:26:10 (GMT)
From: Nigel
Email: None
To: JHB
Subject: Yes - a reasonable analogy, John
Message:
..and being in love and expressing it craps on both lonely practises from a very great height, in my experience.
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Date: Sun, Apr 22, 2001 at 01:37:17 (GMT)
From: Moldy Warp
Email: None
To: Nigel
Subject: No more lonely practices
Message:
Most totally agree. More love from a person than your wildest dreams could imagine from a meditation technique.
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Date: Sun, Apr 22, 2001 at 06:52:57 (GMT)
From: Loaf
Email: None
To: Moldy Warp
Subject: Oh no !!! They have both started to Moo !!! (OTT)
Message:
aaaarg ! Lots of love to you both :0)

Loafie

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Date: Sun, Apr 22, 2001 at 14:27:07 (GMT)
From: Moldy Warp
Email: None
To: Loaf
Subject: Hey Loaf - get yer tutu ready OT
Message:
And yer oop shadooeydooey WaWas. Yer band is ready to roll(Moos permitting) xxxxxxMoldio
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Date: Sun, Apr 22, 2001 at 00:02:55 (GMT)
From: Sir Dave
Email: None
To: JHB
Subject: Masturbation
Message:
The best thing about masturbation is that you can get someone else to do it for you, especially if your hands are tied. The same is not true for meditation.
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Date: Sun, Apr 22, 2001 at 01:11:38 (GMT)
From: PatC
Email: None
To: Sir Dave
Subject: Masturbation - especially if your hands are tied!
Message:
Ooooh, baby! Now that is fun! Especially if you keep bringing your partner almost to climax but stop short and tease and tease and tease. It's all part of what is erroneously known as ''tantric sex.''
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Date: Sat, Apr 21, 2001 at 23:51:40 (GMT)
From: PatC
Email: None
To: JHB
Subject: Meditation=Masturbation? Yes!
Message:
Absolutely on the nose, John. And I have always felt that sharing it with someone else should be an intimate and private affair between consenting adults in the privacy of their own home. Certainly not a religion and definitely not a money-making god-vending business.
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Date: Sat, Apr 21, 2001 at 22:49:16 (GMT)
From: Helen
Email: None
To: JHB
Subject: Masturbation
Message:
It depends I think. The whole trip that Maharaji led was very narcissistic and pleasure-oriented.

But if someone wants to meditate or masturbate for that matter, and they don't put it above every other activity, and avoid their daily responsibilities because of it, it's not inherently bad.

What is bad about knowledge per Maharaji's specifications, is that it was suppoed to be 'it', the only thing, and everything else was supposed to be maya/illusion.

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Date: Sat, Apr 21, 2001 at 22:45:09 (GMT)
From: JHB
Email: None
To: JHB
Subject: PS....
Message:
... of course there is nothing wrong with masturbating, and I'm sorry if my use of the word 'wankers' was taken to imply there was.

John the knows what he likes

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Date: Sun, Apr 22, 2001 at 11:37:46 (GMT)
From: janet
Email: None
To: JHB
Subject: fascinating comparison. hm.
Message:
both involve stimulating the body at specificpoints to focus the attention...
both require some sustained effort.
both hope to reach an altered state of consciousness.
( in that respect i think masturbation gives much better odds for arriving at the desired destination pretty much every time)
both are purported methods of discharging excess tension and reaching a sense of all pervasive relaxation.
both deliberately self-manipulate the nervous system.

and just for the record, both orgasm and the alpha state of awareness, which some biofeedback meditations aim for as the desired state to reach, both of these states fire the nerves and brain at exactly 8 cycles per second.

so maybe there is no difference--except where you apply the contact.

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Date: Sat, Apr 21, 2001 at 22:36:43 (GMT)
From: Marianne
Email: None
To: JHB
Subject: Answer: I think so -- nt
Message:
xxx
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Date: Sat, Apr 21, 2001 at 21:41:25 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: Is this funny? Sick? Funny? Sick and funny?
Message:
This is a testimonial from the premie page, Appreciation. It's a 19 year-old aspirant showing how thoroughly 'ready' she is. As she puts it, she's finally 'totally, utterly, extremely grateful'. Okay, little doggie, now that you've got all the right answers ..... It's pretty transparent really. The way she's able to say that she want's Knowledge for herself, not her family (there was never any pressure anyway). The way she knows how to express her gratitude for the simplicity she finds 'attending events'. The non-questioning way she accepts the fact that 'the only reason' she couldn't receive Knowledge last year was that she 'needed to listen more'. She's even got that premie cliche down about how 'last time' it was this way or that way but this time 'is different'. What do you think?

I want Knowledge for myself, not for my family

How did you first hear about Maharaji?

When I was born, I think. I can't remember the first day. There were always pictures in the house. Mom would say, 'This is Maharaji and if you want, he can help you'. There was never any pressure. I want Knowledge for myself, not for my family. But I see the difference it makes for them. All my mother's family have knowledge.

The first time I saw Maharaji was at the St. Denis Theatre in Montreal; I was nine years old. Whenever he came to town, I made an effort to go and see him. In Brighton, U.K. last year I went through a Knowledge Selection. The instructor said I was on the right track but needed to listen some more.

What has it been like attending events?

It's been really good. I enjoy it. At the end of a hectic day it's a beautiful way to unwind and go to simplicity.

What are your feelings about Maharaji and about receiving Knowledge?

I can't believe it's coming. I'm not anxious or fidgety. I just can't believe it's happening. Once I'm there it will become real. I remember being so upset at Brighton. I was helping out, all three days at Wembly and at Brighton, winding cables, taping boxes. I had a good time, but it was very emotional at the same time. This time is different. I'm happy I went through the selection in England last year. The only reason I couldn't receive Knowledge then was that I needed to listen more. Other people had other reasons.

Is there anything else you'd like to add?

I am totally, utterly, extremely grateful.

- Lena Gohil, 19, aspirant ready to receive Knowledge this June.

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Date: Mon, Apr 23, 2001 at 11:48:12 (GMT)
From: SB
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: SAD, very SAD: He got another 19 year old
Message:
I saw myself there....

(I hate you maharajilard)

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Date: Sun, Apr 22, 2001 at 00:40:42 (GMT)
From: Roy
Email: 7
To: Jim
Subject: reads like j. peterman or lands end catalog. nt.
Message:
z
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