Forum V: Archive
Compiled: Wed, May 02, 2001 at 22:46:04 (GMT)
From: Apr 21, 2001 To: Apr 30, 2001 Page: 4 Of: 5


El santo -:- What means 'Rarankaar'? -:- Mon, Apr 23, 2001 at 18:21:23 (GMT)
__ Jethro -:- What means 'Rarankaar'? -:- Tues, Apr 24, 2001 at 05:56:33 (GMT)
__ cq -:- What means 'Rarankaar'? -:- Mon, Apr 23, 2001 at 18:37:20 (GMT)
__ __ El Santo -:- What means 'Rarankaar'? -:- Mon, Apr 23, 2001 at 22:15:41 (GMT)
__ __ __ cq -:- What means 'Rarankaar'? take two -:- Tues, Apr 24, 2001 at 17:46:28 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ El Stanto -:- Thanks, cq -:- Tues, Apr 24, 2001 at 19:55:08 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ cq -:- well, if you knew in the first place - -:- Tues, Apr 24, 2001 at 20:14:38 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ El Santo -:- well, if you knew in the first place - -:- Wed, Apr 25, 2001 at 15:22:43 (GMT)
__ __ __ PatC -:- Rarankaar is the car that Rawat killed a man with -:- Tues, Apr 24, 2001 at 00:51:14 (GMT)

Sandy -:- When you admit that you are weak, ignorant and -:- Mon, Apr 23, 2001 at 15:49:50 (GMT)
__ DeProGram Anand Ji -:- What? Come again? -:- Tues, Apr 24, 2001 at 04:25:14 (GMT)
__ Katie Darling -:- Yes, it kinda does something to your head -:- Tues, Apr 24, 2001 at 03:10:38 (GMT)
__ __ Sandy -:- Yes, it kinda does something to your head -:- Wed, Apr 25, 2001 at 02:54:22 (GMT)
__ Sir Dave -:- You're as weak as you think you are -:- Mon, Apr 23, 2001 at 20:48:26 (GMT)
__ Mickey the Pharisee -:- When you admit that you are weak, ignorant and -:- Mon, Apr 23, 2001 at 19:56:34 (GMT)
__ __ Sandy -:- When you admit that you are weak, ignorant and -:- Wed, Apr 25, 2001 at 05:08:07 (GMT)
__ __ Lesley -:- 'It is not evil or wrong to make a decision' -:- Mon, Apr 23, 2001 at 20:42:17 (GMT)
__ PatC -:- Sandy, I don't understand this part of your post -:- Mon, Apr 23, 2001 at 19:44:56 (GMT)
__ Loaf -:- When you admit that you are weak, ignorant and -:- Mon, Apr 23, 2001 at 18:46:37 (GMT)
__ __ PatC -:- Loaf, I'm drawing up a contract now -:- Mon, Apr 23, 2001 at 19:52:01 (GMT)
__ Toby -:- Why is it that complete surrender never took place -:- Mon, Apr 23, 2001 at 15:56:32 (GMT)
__ __ Loaf -:- But I equally KNEW he WAS the One.. Hmmm (NT) -:- Mon, Apr 23, 2001 at 21:13:41 (GMT)
__ __ salam -:- Hello -:- Mon, Apr 23, 2001 at 18:19:11 (GMT)
__ __ __ PatC -:- Yes, Toby and Salam -:- Mon, Apr 23, 2001 at 19:55:25 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Katie Darling -:- Bummer! Did I know all along? -:- Mon, Apr 23, 2001 at 20:37:48 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Bin Liner -:- I knew right from the beginning that I ... -:- Mon, Apr 23, 2001 at 23:20:00 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ PatC -:- Bin, you're a treasure - great post and story -:- Tues, Apr 24, 2001 at 01:16:30 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Katie Darling -:- The beauty of this world -:- Tues, Apr 24, 2001 at 01:58:08 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ PatC -:- Beauty of this world better than any imaginary -:- Tues, Apr 24, 2001 at 02:11:24 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Katie Darling -:- Beauty of this world better than any imaginary -:- Tues, Apr 24, 2001 at 05:12:44 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ PatC -:- hey, Katie, I became a writer so I could imagine -:- Tues, Apr 24, 2001 at 07:13:49 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Katie Darling -:- hey, Katie, I became a writer so I could imagine -:- Wed, Apr 25, 2001 at 21:11:35 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Mickey the Pharisee -:- Beauty of this world better than any imaginary -:- Tues, Apr 24, 2001 at 02:40:28 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Sandy -:- Hi Mickey -:- Wed, Apr 25, 2001 at 14:23:14 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Mickey the Pharisee -:- Hi Sandy -:- Wed, Apr 25, 2001 at 16:24:06 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Sandy -:- Hi Mickey -:- Wed, Apr 25, 2001 at 17:06:52 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Mickey the Pharisee -:- Sources -:- Wed, Apr 25, 2001 at 19:58:15 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Sandy -:- Sources -:- Wed, Apr 25, 2001 at 20:39:22 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Mickey the Pharisee -:- Sources -:- Wed, Apr 25, 2001 at 23:42:41 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Szandy -:- I am not going down this road any further -:- Thurs, Apr 26, 2001 at 00:01:25 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Mickey the Pharisee -:- Thank you. nt -:- Thurs, Apr 26, 2001 at 00:05:37 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ PatC -:- Amen, Mickey. Thanks for your post. -:- Wed, Apr 25, 2001 at 17:04:02 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ PatC -:- Thank you for that, Mickey. I see why you live in -:- Tues, Apr 24, 2001 at 02:51:58 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Cynthia -:- Beauty of this World... -:- Tues, Apr 24, 2001 at 15:56:34 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ PatC -:- Cynthia, I do miss lush green-ness -:- Tues, Apr 24, 2001 at 18:17:49 (GMT)

toby -:- Wolle (Wolfgang) Peters -:- Mon, Apr 23, 2001 at 14:44:25 (GMT)
__ AJW -:- Wolle (Wolfgang) Peters -:- Tues, Apr 24, 2001 at 09:13:39 (GMT)

Tony -:- EPO site is making a dent -:- Mon, Apr 23, 2001 at 13:25:30 (GMT)
__ such -:- just hope someone has 'comprehensive coverage'!(nt -:- Thurs, Apr 26, 2001 at 06:52:06 (GMT)
__ JSK -:- EPO site is making a dent -:- Tues, Apr 24, 2001 at 13:59:34 (GMT)
__ Mr. Mind -:- EPO site is making a dent -:- Mon, Apr 23, 2001 at 18:18:07 (GMT)
__ cq -:- the Maha is EV's biggest liability -:- Mon, Apr 23, 2001 at 18:09:15 (GMT)
__ __ G -:- 'resistance will come from where you least expect' -:- Mon, Apr 23, 2001 at 23:30:42 (GMT)
__ __ Sir Dave -:- Most of our computing is done in India -:- Mon, Apr 23, 2001 at 19:58:08 (GMT)
__ __ __ salam -:- Guadeloupe -:- Tues, Apr 24, 2001 at 14:57:15 (GMT)
__ __ __ janet -:- thats excellent news. it means that we are -:- Tues, Apr 24, 2001 at 11:37:15 (GMT)
__ __ __ Sir Dave -:- Discovered Guadeloupe is in West Indies (nt) -:- Mon, Apr 23, 2001 at 20:12:24 (GMT)
__ Sir Dave -:- and here's why -:- Mon, Apr 23, 2001 at 14:31:43 (GMT)
__ __ JohnT -:- more ... -:- Mon, Apr 23, 2001 at 18:46:08 (GMT)
__ __ __ Gregg -:- the winner: HotBot! -:- Mon, Apr 23, 2001 at 19:28:19 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Sir Dave -:- He's well screwed then (nt) -:- Mon, Apr 23, 2001 at 19:59:16 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Tony -:- When I said EPO,I should've given all -:- Mon, Apr 23, 2001 at 21:53:31 (GMT)

Nigel -:- The dead skunk and the timewarp experiment -:- Mon, Apr 23, 2001 at 11:22:29 (GMT)
__ Mel Bourne -:- The dead skunk and the timewarp experiment -:- Tues, Apr 24, 2001 at 08:06:09 (GMT)
__ __ Nigel -:- The dead skunk and the timewarp experiment -:- Tues, Apr 24, 2001 at 09:48:12 (GMT)
__ __ __ Katie H -:- The dead skunk, Fakiranand, and naming names -:- Tues, Apr 24, 2001 at 13:54:27 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Nigel -:- Well if not 'singing praises'... -:- Tues, Apr 24, 2001 at 14:48:26 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Katie H. -:- Well if not 'singing praises'... -:- Wed, Apr 25, 2001 at 00:47:27 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Nigel -:- Why do suppose I'm NOT at Amaroo? -:- Wed, Apr 25, 2001 at 02:13:53 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Katie -:- I can just see it (snicker) -:- Wed, Apr 25, 2001 at 13:24:06 (GMT)
__ __ __ Mel Bourne -:- The dead skunk and the timewarp experiment -:- Tues, Apr 24, 2001 at 11:06:08 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Nigel -:- see my reply on 'Oh really, Mel' sub-thread...(nt) -:- Tues, Apr 24, 2001 at 11:44:33 (GMT)
__ Jim -:- Oh come on, Nige -- that one's simple too -:- Mon, Apr 23, 2001 at 23:29:17 (GMT)
__ __ janet -:- oh my dear brother, have you forgotten? -:- Tues, Apr 24, 2001 at 12:16:01 (GMT)
__ __ Mel Bourne -:- Oh come on, Nige -- that one's simple too -:- Tues, Apr 24, 2001 at 08:37:02 (GMT)
__ __ __ Nigel -:- Oh, really, Mel? -:- Tues, Apr 24, 2001 at 09:22:53 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Mel Bourne -:- Oh, really, Mel? -:- Tues, Apr 24, 2001 at 11:21:01 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Nigel -:- Oh, really, Mel? -:- Tues, Apr 24, 2001 at 11:41:51 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Katie H -:- Nigel and Mel -:- Tues, Apr 24, 2001 at 14:02:35 (GMT)
__ __ PatC -:- Jim - that's brilliant. A MUST READ POST! -:- Tues, Apr 24, 2001 at 01:32:47 (GMT)
__ __ __ Mel Bourne -:- Jim - that's brilliant. A MUST READ POST! -:- Tues, Apr 24, 2001 at 08:39:44 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Nigel -:- Lighten up, Mel... -:- Tues, Apr 24, 2001 at 10:21:42 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Mel Bourne -:- Lighten up, Mel...OK -:- Tues, Apr 24, 2001 at 11:35:25 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ PatC -:- Mel, you can't offend me. I don't know who you are -:- Tues, Apr 24, 2001 at 18:01:04 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Way -:- Mel, I thought you were attending Amaroo -:- Tues, Apr 24, 2001 at 13:57:29 (GMT)
__ TD -:- I'm glad the fact that M killed a man has been.... -:- Mon, Apr 23, 2001 at 22:57:21 (GMT)
__ berni -:- The dead skunk and the timewarp experiment -:- Mon, Apr 23, 2001 at 21:18:42 (GMT)
__ Lesley -:- Doing the timewarp experiment -:- Mon, Apr 23, 2001 at 20:27:25 (GMT)
__ PatC -:- Nigel, you have just put my thoughts into words -:- Mon, Apr 23, 2001 at 19:34:55 (GMT)

PatC -:- Yes, Premies, I am still very fond of Maharaji -:- Mon, Apr 23, 2001 at 08:34:41 (GMT)
__ jumbler -:- fondness my arse -:- Tues, Apr 24, 2001 at 00:10:03 (GMT)
__ __ Nigel -:- Concise, eloquent, well-put... -:- Tues, Apr 24, 2001 at 23:16:04 (GMT)
__ __ __ Moldy Warp -:- Concise, eloquent, and most impressive -:- Tues, Apr 24, 2001 at 23:22:52 (GMT)
__ __ PatC -:- That's the way, jumbler. As the Yanks would say -:- Tues, Apr 24, 2001 at 01:37:43 (GMT)
__ __ __ jumbler -:- rambling on.... -:- Wed, Apr 25, 2001 at 00:43:11 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ PatC -:- bringing Rev Moon Beam Rawat to accou -:- Wed, Apr 25, 2001 at 23:34:03 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ cq -:- bringin' the Singh bin to account -:- Wed, Apr 25, 2001 at 18:36:37 (GMT)
__ __ __ cq -:- dish best eaten cold -:- Tues, Apr 24, 2001 at 19:06:13 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ PatC -:- dish best not eaten at all - Hamster Spam -:- Tues, Apr 24, 2001 at 19:21:31 (GMT)
__ Katie Darling -:- Yes, Premies, I am still very fond of Maharaji -:- Mon, Apr 23, 2001 at 16:04:11 (GMT)
__ __ PatC -:- Katie, in the early seventies Miragey was a real -:- Mon, Apr 23, 2001 at 18:29:42 (GMT)
__ Sandy -:- Pat -:- Mon, Apr 23, 2001 at 13:58:14 (GMT)
__ __ PatC -:- Sandy, thank you for your passionate story -:- Mon, Apr 23, 2001 at 19:06:47 (GMT)
__ __ Katie Darling -:- Sandy - your hairy journey -:- Mon, Apr 23, 2001 at 15:23:43 (GMT)
__ Bryn -:- Yes, Premies, I am still very fond of Maharaji -:- Mon, Apr 23, 2001 at 13:49:40 (GMT)
__ __ PatC -:- Jesuits say: ''Give me a child before 7 years old -:- Mon, Apr 23, 2001 at 19:21:02 (GMT)
__ __ Disculta -:- That's fascinating, Bryn! (Long response) -:- Mon, Apr 23, 2001 at 15:49:44 (GMT)
__ __ __ Bryn -:- To Pat and Disculta. -:- Tues, Apr 24, 2001 at 12:10:51 (GMT)

jondon -:- Handicap facilities at Amaroo??? -:- Mon, Apr 23, 2001 at 02:33:24 (GMT)
__ Pete Brach -:- Handicap facilities at Amaroo??? -:- Mon, Apr 23, 2001 at 06:46:53 (GMT)
__ __ cq -:- they had false gurus in Krishna's time too? (nt) -:- Tues, Apr 24, 2001 at 18:36:28 (GMT)
__ __ Jim -:- Hi Pete Brach -:- Tues, Apr 24, 2001 at 03:49:30 (GMT)
__ __ PatC -:- Hi, Peter, and welcome to Forum Five -:- Mon, Apr 23, 2001 at 09:27:41 (GMT)
__ __ salam -:- Handicap facilities at Amaroo??? -:- Mon, Apr 23, 2001 at 08:06:26 (GMT)
__ Francesca -:- From Amaroo Application packet -:- Mon, Apr 23, 2001 at 05:48:15 (GMT)
__ __ Francesca -:- I forgot to add -- don't have a baby there or ... -:- Mon, Apr 23, 2001 at 05:50:08 (GMT)
__ __ __ Tonette -:- He liked the name Sunita too! -:- Tues, Apr 24, 2001 at 01:59:52 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ such -:- all I got was a stinkin' Hans Jayanti t-shirt (nt -:- Thurs, Apr 26, 2001 at 06:43:42 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ PatC -:- You've got a good memory, Tonette -:- Tues, Apr 24, 2001 at 02:33:27 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Tonette -:- one can only hope -:- Tues, Apr 24, 2001 at 03:15:02 (GMT)
__ __ __ magnolia -:- Baby Naming -:- Mon, Apr 23, 2001 at 11:49:20 (GMT)
__ __ __ PatC -:- I remember Satganga from Kissimee -:- Mon, Apr 23, 2001 at 09:37:20 (GMT)
__ __ __ janet -:- i midwifed a birth at guru puja, miami -:- Mon, Apr 23, 2001 at 08:32:54 (GMT)
__ __ __ janet -:- i midwifed a birth in the miami conv center -:- Mon, Apr 23, 2001 at 08:29:55 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ PatC -:- God bless little Sita now all of 21 years old -:- Mon, Apr 23, 2001 at 09:43:27 (GMT)
__ G -:- I doubt it. -:- Mon, Apr 23, 2001 at 03:21:11 (GMT)
__ __ Peter Howie -:- I doubt it. -:- Thurs, Apr 26, 2001 at 03:30:10 (GMT)
__ __ Mercedes -:- toilets and showers -:- Mon, Apr 23, 2001 at 13:55:43 (GMT)
__ __ salam -:- There are no obligation to provide facilities -:- Mon, Apr 23, 2001 at 08:15:25 (GMT)
__ __ __ PatC -:- That's barbaric, Salam -:- Mon, Apr 23, 2001 at 09:33:59 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Francesca -:- Pat, if you read my post above -:- Mon, Apr 23, 2001 at 16:22:21 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ salam -:- Am only stating a fact -:- Mon, Apr 23, 2001 at 18:03:37 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Francesca -:- Makes sense to me, salam -:- Mon, Apr 23, 2001 at 19:21:37 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ PatC -:- Exactly! He wants US dollars, but not US laws. NT -:- Mon, Apr 23, 2001 at 19:57:57 (GMT)

Jim -:- Help, I'm in Anagram Land! -:- Mon, Apr 23, 2001 at 02:13:13 (GMT)
__ Jim -:- *** SOME GREAT PAMAGRAMS!! *** -:- Wed, Apr 25, 2001 at 00:43:09 (GMT)
__ a0aji -:- Help, I'm in Anagram Land! -:- Mon, Apr 23, 2001 at 06:11:09 (GMT)
__ PatC -:- Ashram wang tippler fondles his overture?! -:- Mon, Apr 23, 2001 at 02:22:45 (GMT)
__ __ janet -:- how many words can you find in..... -:- Mon, Apr 23, 2001 at 04:05:45 (GMT)
__ __ __ cq -:- how many words can you find in..... -:- Mon, Apr 23, 2001 at 19:18:03 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ PatC -:- LOL: 'Rent-boy stirs idle penis.' -:- Mon, Apr 23, 2001 at 20:00:37 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ cq -:- there's more ... -:- Tues, Apr 24, 2001 at 19:53:08 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ PatC -:- there's more ... anagram generator -:- Tues, Apr 24, 2001 at 22:36:15 (GMT)
__ __ __ PatC -:- Janet likes this game! -:- Mon, Apr 23, 2001 at 08:37:43 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ janet -:- Janet likes this game! -:- Mon, Apr 23, 2001 at 08:41:56 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ PatC -:- We'll play it at SF ''Pigeon Fanciers' Night'' -:- Mon, Apr 23, 2001 at 08:51:36 (GMT)

Hitoshi -:- Happy to see you with not guru - ho boy no help? -:- Sun, Apr 22, 2001 at 17:17:23 (GMT)
__ AJW -:- Cliff Richards -:- Mon, Apr 23, 2001 at 10:21:51 (GMT)
__ salam -:- I liek mielki twoi mateie. -:- Mon, Apr 23, 2001 at 08:28:21 (GMT)
__ TD -:- Reminds me of that Turkish 'kiss kiss' guy (nt) -:- Mon, Apr 23, 2001 at 03:22:14 (GMT)
__ Sir Dave -:- I'll guard your milk products (nt) -:- Mon, Apr 23, 2001 at 00:29:46 (GMT)
__ __ Sir Dave -:- PS -:- Mon, Apr 23, 2001 at 00:39:40 (GMT)
__ __ __ Sir Dave -:- PPS -:- Mon, Apr 23, 2001 at 00:57:18 (GMT)
__ Steve Quint -:- Hajimemashite -:- Sun, Apr 22, 2001 at 17:28:53 (GMT)
__ __ bagoshite -:- Hajimemashite -:- Sun, Apr 22, 2001 at 21:34:57 (GMT)
__ __ __ Steve Quint -:- How Do You Do -:- Sun, Apr 22, 2001 at 21:38:05 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ janet -:- wanna be our japanese liason to the japanese ex's? -:- Mon, Apr 23, 2001 at 04:36:11 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ DV -:- Reminds me of a friend who put Ichichu Sosumi on -:- Sun, Apr 22, 2001 at 23:56:09 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ janet -:- took me a while to get it: -:- Mon, Apr 23, 2001 at 04:37:37 (GMT)


Date: Mon, Apr 23, 2001 at 18:21:23 (GMT)
From: El santo
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: What means 'Rarankaar'?
Message:
Also spelled 'rarankar', 'Raran Kar', 'Raran Kaar', etc.

A Radhasoami word, indeed one of the few actually coined by them...

Just thought that since a genuine religious scholar or two be popping up on this board of late, at least one of thee (Pat? Not that you must carry this budren unduly) might actually know.

(Parenthetically, Goomrajie HAS INDEED ripped the Dharamdasi folks off... but only up to the level of his highskool-dropout level of education.)

What I remember best about what passed for premie 'intellectuals' of the late '70's/early '80's was that most of 'em (the self-professed ones, I mean) tended to be lightweight careerist state-college assistant perfesser types. Them with genuine major league intellects tended to renounce all such pursuits as a form of 'surrender to De Lawd'. This, to me, was a very fascinating dichotomy-- smart folks acting 'simple', simple folks posturing as 'smart'. Almost like wrestling fans of the era-- 'marks' vs. 'smarts'... the latter refusing to break the code of 'kayfabe'... for various ideosyncratic reasons... the 'marks' occasionally professing doubts about the 'legitimacy' of the occasional Race-over-O'Conner decision...

Still... what means 'Rarankaar'? Didn't Hans 'teach' said mantra? I really wanna know!

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Date: Tues, Apr 24, 2001 at 05:56:33 (GMT)
From: Jethro
Email: None
To: El santo
Subject: What means 'Rarankaar'?
Message:
Rarankaar is a mantra and mantras often don't have any meaning, thei idea being that you don;t have any associations with the word.
That's the best I can do.

Regards Jethro

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Date: Mon, Apr 23, 2001 at 18:37:20 (GMT)
From: cq
Email: None
To: El santo
Subject: What means 'Rarankaar'?
Message:
As in:

JYOT NIRANJAN
OANKAAR
RARANKAAR
SOHANG
SATNAAM

???

http://www.ex-premie.org/best/bof01262000162905.htm#P_01GX might help.

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Date: Mon, Apr 23, 2001 at 22:15:41 (GMT)
From: El Santo
Email: None
To: cq
Subject: What means 'Rarankaar'?
Message:
Thanks for the response, but quite obviously it doesn't answer my rather straightforward Q.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, screw Rawat! (A filthy capitalist opportunist/exploiter/scumbag, doubtless!)

But not my point!

(Sorry to have disturbed anyone here. And to think I referred to the ex-Radhasomai satsangi as 'lightweights'!)

Mea culpa ad nauseum, ad absurdum!!!!

-- El Santo The Shit-Ignorant 'Aspirant' to Jnana Yoga.

Oh, wot de hell...

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Date: Tues, Apr 24, 2001 at 17:46:28 (GMT)
From: cq
Email: None
To: El Santo
Subject: What means 'Rarankaar'? take two
Message:
found a site that gives the English translation of Hindi words here: http://downloads.members.tripod.com/ompeace/hindiword.html

The nearest they have is this:

'OMkaara' = the syllable om

so Raran kaar could mean 'the syllables Raran'.

Like Jethro said, if it's a mantra, it might be intended to have no meaning/word associations at all. Just a sound to focus on.

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Date: Tues, Apr 24, 2001 at 19:55:08 (GMT)
From: El Stanto
Email: None
To: cq
Subject: Thanks, cq
Message:
Raah= road, journey, method

Kaar= reason

??

Your idea of mantra= 'vibration' = 'Word' makes a bit of sense.

Thanx for the dictionary connection. Been there, done that, but maybe next time I can 'connect' y'all to something or other you be innarested in learnin'...

like what 'ran' means?

Why I'd be happy to!

Thanx and take care...

--El Santo

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Date: Tues, Apr 24, 2001 at 20:14:38 (GMT)
From: cq
Email: None
To: El Stanto
Subject: well, if you knew in the first place -
Message:
- why the *^!& did you ask?

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Date: Wed, Apr 25, 2001 at 15:22:43 (GMT)
From: El Santo
Email: None
To: cq
Subject: well, if you knew in the first place -
Message:
Um, because I did some additional research and was boorish enough to assume that folks who had earlier responded to the thread might be interested in a partial answer?

Think maybe?

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Date: Tues, Apr 24, 2001 at 00:51:14 (GMT)
From: PatC
Email: None
To: El Santo
Subject: Rarankaar is the car that Rawat killed a man with
Message:
Just kidding of course but I couldn't resist the joke.

But seriously, El Santo, sorry but I don't know. I've studied ancient yoga more than guru-worship cults. I will let you know if ever I find out in my sniffing around gurujism.

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Date: Mon, Apr 23, 2001 at 15:49:50 (GMT)
From: Sandy
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: When you admit that you are weak, ignorant and
Message:
filled with the impurities of this world and only the Grace of the Master can possibly save you, oh, let's say 365 x 20 = 7300 times, it kind of does something to your head. Not only your head, but to every single cell in all of the layers of your body, from the etheric to the physical, if you truly believe it to the point of knowing. Every body reacts differently to stimuli, and some bodies have allergic type reactions that other bodies do not, much like strawberries or some other plants affect some people and not others. I believe, from direct personal and observational experience here on this site, that every body is reacting a bit differently to Maharaji now, with various levels of experience on both the premies' and ex-premies' sides. And I also believe that although courage and committment to one's own truth and experience is extremely important, that some premies here (myself one) are conflicted for reasons they (I) cannot as yet summarize coherently. Something is holding me back and I am pretty sure it is not fear, inertia or ignorance. It is deeper than that and it does not feel like a negative emotion. It is obviously present when I practice Knowledge as an experience of the utmost kindness despite all the rest of life swirling by and all the attitudes, mind games and head trips, and even many bad things that have happened to me, even though they were not committed by PAMS. Shit still happened to me, and if God was watching, what was up with that? I never stopped believing in God because shit happened and He allegedly had the power to stop the bad stuff, but did not.

If all I wanted was my own 'fix' as someone described on another thread, and I did not care about what was happening to the people around me, why would I hang out here? Yeah, I know, somebody told me to keep Knowledge and toss Maharaji....which takes us back full circle to telling ourselves how weak, ignorant, and filled with the impurities of the world we are...and not good for much without the Grace. Ex-premies look at that statement as the most disempowering statement, and premies see it as the opposite.
The paradox that I thought would never happen...yeah, I bet all of us thought it would never happen at one time or another.

Reminds me, I gotta get in touch with Mark about seeing both sides.

Sandy

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Date: Tues, Apr 24, 2001 at 04:25:14 (GMT)
From: DeProGram Anand Ji
Email: not given
To: Sandy
Subject: What? Come again?
Message:
nt
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Date: Tues, Apr 24, 2001 at 03:10:38 (GMT)
From: Katie Darling
Email: None
To: Sandy
Subject: Yes, it kinda does something to your head
Message:
I remember some incident where I was very ill and in a bit of a rambling, shocked state, and I found myself blathering some lines from arti - some horrible lines which fortunately I can no longer remember, of a similar vein to the weak and ignorant crap you quoted. This was more than a decade after leaving the cult, BTW, and I had spent many years reprogramming my mind with self-affirming, self-loving ideas. It was quite chilling to realize that some part of my body/brain was still operating on the slave program.

I say this to agree with you, Sandy, that the amount of programming some of us received, or self-inflicted, is not to be taken lightly. (Although taking it lightly once it surfaces is one of the best ways I have found to deactivate it!).

On the other hand, this is all the more reason to start a new program. Like for example, every day say, 'I am strong, and wise and filled with the purity of nature.' There are also some excellent alternate versions to Arti and other devotional songs that have appeared on this forum. Maybe it would be a good idea to sing one of those each day. Or if they are too offensive, make up a new one of your own, with a lot of powerful affirmation about your freedom and innate goodness and your direct, that is DIRECT connection to the source of everything. I have had a lot of benefit, personally, from silly songs I have made up and sung in the car, the shower, in front of my altar (I still have one).

Love Katie Darling

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Date: Wed, Apr 25, 2001 at 02:54:22 (GMT)
From: Sandy
Email: None
To: Katie Darling
Subject: Yes, it kinda does something to your head
Message:
Katie,

We are both and at once weak, ignorant and filled with the impurities of this world AND the crown of creation, what a piece of work is man, how noble in reason, how infinite in faculties, in form and movement how like an angel, in apprehension how like a god. How can this be? Beats the hell out of me. But that is my experience, which I have thought is wrong. But it isn't. I don't have to choose one from column a and one from column b. It's not like that.

The seeds of both good and evil are in all of us. Which ones get watered are the ones that will grow, like Frannie said about what feels good and what feels bad in a more recent thread up top about gratitude. Gratitude keeps unseemly pride in check. it is the balance that allows the good to flow and the bad to wither in us, or that's how it looks to me at what feels like a rather clear moment.

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Date: Mon, Apr 23, 2001 at 20:48:26 (GMT)
From: Sir Dave
Email: sirdavid12@hotmail.com
To: Sandy
Subject: You're as weak as you think you are
Message:
Maharaji who? It's all in your own head, man. Any importance you give to Maharaji is your own individual trip. Who is Guru Maharaj Ji???

As time goes on I have less memory of him. He's extremely insignificant. I'd rate the Kray twins as having had far more positive influence over humanity than that Indian guy. They were world famous, you know. Even had a film made about them. I've read their autobuographies which make fascinating reading.

If you want to clear your head of all this guru clap-trap, read 'Born Fighter' by Reg Kray or Ron's autobiography, I forget the title. Then you may have a clearer insight into what really matters in life and what you can or cannot do.

Both the Kray twins believed in God. Both had a strict moral code and both triumphed over severe adversity - they were imprisoned for over thirty years until they died.

Leave these pontificating gurus behind and learn about some real people who have seen life in the raw and made good come out of bad.

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Date: Mon, Apr 23, 2001 at 19:56:34 (GMT)
From: Mickey the Pharisee
Email: None
To: Sandy
Subject: When you admit that you are weak, ignorant and
Message:
Sandy, it is too bad that you 'admitted' such things. Personally, leaving M and the so-called knowledge proved to me that I was not weak. Finishing my under-graduate degree and going on to finish two Master's degrees showed me that I was not ignorant. As for the impurities of this world, well, I think that much of that is just hooey!

I haven't seen any proof of God stopping bad things from happening and I don't think that every good thing that happens necessarily comes from God, either. Perhaps you need to examine your theology; a good dose of reality, figuring out what is real and how much of what you believe is the result of wanting it to be true rather than admitting what is false, may help you make a decision instead of all this agonizing.

Once you have seen both sides, you need to decide which one is authentic and which is false. It is not evil or wrong to make a decision.

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Date: Wed, Apr 25, 2001 at 05:08:07 (GMT)
From: Sandy
Email: None
To: Mickey the Pharisee
Subject: When you admit that you are weak, ignorant and
Message:
Hi Mickey,

I have copied your letter and inserted my responses with asterisk:

Sandy,

It is too bad that you 'admitted' such things.

*Didn't we all admit such things for years by saying that simple little prayer he gave us?

Personally, leaving M and the so-called knowledge proved to me that I was not weak.

*Depends what you call weak, or what he meant by it..weak in what way?

Finishing my under-graduate degree and going on to finish two Master's degrees showed me that I was not ignorant.

*I applaud your accomplishments in the academic realm, but is that what you really think he meant by ignorant? What do you think he was referring to that we are ignorant of?

As for the impurities of this world, well, I think that much of that is just hooey!

*Interesting response. Perhaps you'd feel differently if you lived in the Northeast Corridor between Washington DC and NYC or some such place. And do you think that physical impurities is all he meant? 'The impurities of this world'...worldly impurities...temptations of the heart, mind and flesh, in a nutshell the seven deadly sins as they are called. Why do you call this hooey? Humankind has been struggling with this since history was first written. It is your vocation to advance the cause of purity in the world....so why the hooey. If man were not full of these things, then why would he need to be saved? From what, if not himself?

Let's put the books down and all the degrees and speak in the spirit to each other and not pull clerical rank. I don't think Jesus went for that. Let's just try to talk. Please forgive my directness and do not take it as an offense. When I am very tired I speak more directly. I am still sorry for dropping my end of our e-mail correspondence. I plead alot of things have been copping my head very close to home, but that is no excuse to treat a brother badly.

I haven't seen any proof of God stopping bad things from happening and I don't think that every good thing that happens necessarily comes from God, either.

*Another interesting and eclectic remark from a man of the cloth.
No, he doesn't stop some bad stuff, but not being responsible for all good things? I never heard a clerical person say this.

Perhaps you need to examine your theology; a good dose of reality, figuring out what is real and how much of what you believe is the result of wanting it to be true rather than admitting what is false, may help you make a decision instead of all this agonizing.

*I am coming to a place of not agonizing but not choosing one side or the other either. Getting beyond duality feels different than I expected it.

Once you have seen both sides, you need to decide which one is authentic and which is false. It is not evil or wrong to make a decision.

*It is not evil or wrong to see both sides either, Mickey. Is your religion a missionary one? And if so, wouldn't it be your sworn obligation and labor of love to convert as many folks as possible to your faith, including me? And if that were true, would I be upset at you? No, I would not. I would respect you for being true to your beliefs and politely listen and then go my way if I was not touched.

You assumed that when there are two sides, one is true and one is false. Classic Christ-Devil, good-evil, Judeo-Christian stuff.
That may be true in some situations, but in other situations, you may just have two sides of a story that both have their truth to tell. Or they may both be bullshitting each other. It's not all black and white, Mickey. And one doesn't need to be a Bible scholar to speak of it with authority if the holy spirit is active within that person.

Brother Sandy

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Date: Mon, Apr 23, 2001 at 20:42:17 (GMT)
From: Lesley
Email: None
To: Mickey the Pharisee
Subject: 'It is not evil or wrong to make a decision'
Message:
Well said, Michael. I think many of us can attest that the process of meditation and darshan actually requires that you set aside, belittle, do not trust, your critical faculties. After a while, it actually gets to a point that you think it is bad, dangerous, unloving, to make decisions.

Great to see you here, best regards, Lesley

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Date: Mon, Apr 23, 2001 at 19:44:56 (GMT)
From: PatC
Email: None
To: Sandy
Subject: Sandy, I don't understand this part of your post
Message:
You said: ''Yeah, I know, somebody told me to keep Knowledge and toss Maharaji....which takes us back full circle to telling ourselves how weak, ignorant, and filled with the impurities of the world we are...and not good for much without the Grace.''

Please let's talk about this a bit more because I cannot see the reasoning behind that statement. I threw out Miragey but kept doing the gyanyoga and many exes have done the same thing so I don't understand what you are saying. I'm not arguing with you or trying to belittle you. I really want to understand you.

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Date: Mon, Apr 23, 2001 at 18:46:37 (GMT)
From: Loaf
Email: None
To: Sandy
Subject: When you admit that you are weak, ignorant and
Message:
Hi sandy

I think this torn in two directions dilemma is faced by anyone breaking free or challenging ANY belief system or addiction.

When I described in great detail to my doctor what I was going through some years ago - he said that it was identical to the psychological and emotional journeys that he had seen countless heroin addicts undergo.

The 'safe place' a.k.a. 'within' MAY be a trap. Not lethal... but a place of comfort which distorts the concious placing of the self in the world.

For EG I was chatting to Bryn earlier on and he said something that fair made me sit up and squawk.... he said (And I probably mis-quote Bryn)...

'when Socrates said 'know thyself' there was no implication of 'within' - our SELF is just as much defined outside of our body' (or words to that effect).

social, economic, emotional forces have shaped us and continue so to do.

my battle (back to the old pro/anti dilemma)has been to redefine and understand the forces that have brought me to rawat.. which have empowered him, knowledge to the point where I am now needing to 'dissolve K and M' into a larger picture which also includes ME. Not to deny - but to gain perspective.

I think bryn has broken deep and personal ground with his recognition of his school influence - and each of us has our own journey to a point of reconcilliation - not with M - but with our own sweet selves.

My time with Maharajuju was great. I really did have a great time - i travelled the world and the seven seas... (everybodys looking for something)...

It was a glamorous, social, VERY understandable (now) but an undeniably psychologically manipulative and actually quite dangerous relationship with him which has made it difficult for me to have relationships with fellow mortals for quite a while.... but somehow I got out of the monkey trap and initially i did weep and mourn the loss of my orange - however now have to find a new set of navigational aids which will make sense of this larger world, which Includes ElanVital and maharaji AND the bliss of darshan.. but also includes and embraces my own psyche and that of Jim Heller !!

Yikes !

You are not on your own sandy - read PatC's wonderful posts such as the one below about the techniques.. makes sense to me

Loafie

Is there any hope for my getting an endorsement/advertising payment from Pat ?

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Date: Mon, Apr 23, 2001 at 19:52:01 (GMT)
From: PatC
Email: None
To: Loaf
Subject: Loaf, I'm drawing up a contract now
Message:
What percentage do you want as your fee to be my agent?

I just loved your post. Thank you so much for saying that you had a good time during your involvement with Maharajism BUT that you still knew it to be wrong. We didn't get into it because we hated it. We got into it because it was fun and exciting but it was still wrong. Guruism will always be wrong and messianic guruism is absolutely evil.

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Date: Mon, Apr 23, 2001 at 15:56:32 (GMT)
From: Toby
Email: None
To: Sandy
Subject: Why is it that complete surrender never took place
Message:
It is very simple.

Down deep down in your spirit and soul, almost not reachable
but like an anchor, there is something that knows that
Maharaji is not the one.Period.

Toby

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Date: Mon, Apr 23, 2001 at 21:13:41 (GMT)
From: Loaf
Email: None
To: Toby
Subject: But I equally KNEW he WAS the One.. Hmmm (NT)
Message:
somebody must be lying !
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Date: Mon, Apr 23, 2001 at 18:19:11 (GMT)
From: salam
Email: None
To: Toby
Subject: Hello
Message:
Sandy mate,

you maybe having these questions, but I don't think everyone does, and am not sure who are the premies here. Perhaps you can point them out.

I really can't understand why are you so hung up on hahaji and k. you' re either there or here. But you certainly have one foot in each camp. Only problem the two camps are moving apart and that may affect how far you can streach.

It's really easy. Hahaji can be god, I don't really care. What I want from him is to say that he is a lieying god and an imposter. Also a sorry folks is in order. Otherwise he can do as he pleases.

[oh shit got go to bed, cya]

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Date: Mon, Apr 23, 2001 at 19:55:25 (GMT)
From: PatC
Email: None
To: salam
Subject: Yes, Toby and Salam
Message:
Toby, you are absolutely right. Deep dopwn inside we knew all along that he was not THE ONE because there is no such thing as THE ONE!

Salam thanks for saying this: ''Hahaji can be god, I don't really care. What I want from him is to say that he is a lieying god and an imposter. Also a sorry folks is in order. Otherwise he can do as he pleases.''

My thoughts exactly.

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Date: Mon, Apr 23, 2001 at 20:37:48 (GMT)
From: Katie Darling
Email: None
To: PatC
Subject: Bummer! Did I know all along?
Message:
Did I really know all along that he wasn't 'the one?'

You're probably right, Toby. Certainly, in 20-20 perfect hindsight, I can remember the points of doubt. But there are things I 'know' now that I sometimes doubt - like I know I'm with the right dude, but when we're both cranky I have all kinds of other thoughts.

What I can say is that there is an 'I' that knew he wasn't the one, which re-emerged after 12 years or so of my possession by an 'I' that knew he was. Bummer. Oh well.

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Date: Mon, Apr 23, 2001 at 23:20:00 (GMT)
From: Bin Liner
Email: None
To: Katie Darling
Subject: I knew right from the beginning that I ...
Message:
...didn't WANT him to be the one .

So much so that I was the only person from my 'k' session not to go & kiss his tootsies in thanksgiving afterwards , instead I slipped down the stairs when my position in the queue allowed it .

This was the bungalow in Golden Manor , London ,& the teenage greater than god happened to be in residence at the time .

Thing is when I saw the light I recognised it , & even remembered the last time I'd seen it & the circumstances : age 10 months , in a pram . I worked out the age later during a particularly freaky conversation with my mother , where she confirmed my memory as being correct (details of the pram).

What greater confirmation could there be that the little fucker was god .
I HATED the fact that he was god , but I couldn't deny it .

I disliked his loathsome family , his creepy fascist organisation , his mindless high-rankers (cockney rhyming slang) , & just about everything else about the whole business .

However he was god , the circumstances were lila , & I was a piece of shit for having ,like Simon Peter , rejected him from the start .

Trying to reconcile these things, now that I look back , make me realise that I was on the borderline of mental illness for about 13 yrs .

There's only so much one can take , for me it was meeting the girl who became my wife & thinking ,'so she's not a premie , fuck it , who cares ' .

The residual belief was still there of course & I kept up the meditation , as & when , went to events when convenient, & forgot about the glory days .

Discovering this site put the nail in the coffin & recent posts like PC 's below about the yoga stuff have been really useful.

You shouldn't worry about being gullible , most people are in one way or another , & when there's no information available from which you can make a judgement ,only a small minority will go against the grain .

Here's a little true story to cheer you up : The Islandman ,Tomas O'Crohan (sp).

In the C19th , the Blasket Islands , off the coast of Kerry , Ireland , were one of the most isolated places on Earth .

So isolated that despite being part of the UK & the greatest Empire since Rome , then in its industrialised heyday , they mantained a form of government that pre-dated the Normans .

They elected a King .

Many years after primary education was compulsory(1874?) they received their 1st visit from a School's Inspector.

This man wore glasses & none of the children had ever heard of, let alone seen such things .

Consequently they were terrified , & in the playground there was much discussion of who he was & where he'd come from .

The consensus was that he'd come from Hell.

One 9 yr old said , against the others , 'I wouldn't be too sure about that '.

At the age of 21 , he was elected the next King .

Makes ya think:Pat Dorrity

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Date: Tues, Apr 24, 2001 at 01:16:30 (GMT)
From: PatC
Email: None
To: Bin Liner
Subject: Bin, you're a treasure - great post and story
Message:
I first heard about Rev Strangelove Rawat when he went to the Glastonbury rock festival. It gave me the willies not only because I had come to hate rock festivals (and rock) but because it seemed so commercial, crass and arrogant. Such self-promotion and advertising put me off. Two years later and brought to a very low point in my life I crawled to him for help.

Like you I spent the remainder of my time with Rawat bordering on mental illness. My illness took the form of anger and irritability. Now I realize that I was angry with Rawat all that time for being someone I could not like, trust or respect but who had shown me that yoga could produce wonderful sensations.

The bhakti-juju guru-worship is designed to evoke those feelings of love. But I now find this world more beautiful than anything I ever saw on acid and I don't have to imagine anything better. I'm a cheap darshan-drunk and get darshan from lots of beautiful things.

The hummingbirds which nest in our garden every spring and summer are back and they have built their nest in a branch of a tree that hangs right over one of the garden paths. It is only five feet from the ground and I pray that Pussy Too doesn't find it. There a foot away from my face is the nest the size of a half a wallnut shell lined with soft down and two chicks the size of peanuts.

Mom feeds them with nectar from the bottlebrush tree next to them and dad flies in swooping curcles in the sky above to mark his territory. Mom and dad are only an inch long and appear brown until they sit in the sun on the clothesline and sing. Allen's hummingbird is the only singing one. In the sun, their bodies are like shot silk emerald green and peacock blue irridescing into black velvet. Dad's throat flashes black then ruby more beautiful than any jewel.

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Date: Tues, Apr 24, 2001 at 01:58:08 (GMT)
From: Katie Darling
Email: None
To: PatC
Subject: The beauty of this world
Message:
Thanks, Pat. That was good for me too!

I've always wanted to see a hummingbird's nest. Chicks the size of peanuts? My husband just came in and I showed him the post, and now we are going to be imagining peanut-size humming-bird chicks all evening. Better than 'where's our mortgage payment coming from?'

Now I have to drag you up to my place and take you hiking up behind my house. where there are mountains with green velvet tablecloths laid over them, and hawks and dozens of different colored wildflowers. I know you're going to say that you can't do that much exercise, but did you see my post below where I explained that I am going to teach you to fly (which is independent of your weight!)?

Yours in darshan-of-the-world
Katie Darling

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Date: Tues, Apr 24, 2001 at 02:11:24 (GMT)
From: PatC
Email: None
To: Katie Darling
Subject: Beauty of this world better than any imaginary
Message:
stuff about santas, angels, fairies, gurus or telepathic irridescent ETs etc etc.

Actually I'm fit as a fiddle and do a lot of walking not quite the ten mile hikes in the wilderness or cliff climbing that I used to do up until my surgery in 99 but I still enjoy a good hike.

In fact we are planning some time off now and one of the things we'll be doing is a hike in Cascade Canyon because the dogs can run off leash and there is not too much poison oak. We take a picnic with us and have lunch near one of the waterfalls. Can we take the dogs for a walk in your neck of the woods?

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Date: Tues, Apr 24, 2001 at 05:12:44 (GMT)
From: Katie Darling
Email: None
To: PatC
Subject: Beauty of this world better than any imaginary
Message:
There's tons of poison oak right now, in certain areas. It's the Miwok trail, up above Tennessee Valley. Everyone brings their dogs, but there is definitely oak. But Pat, what about FLYING?
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Date: Tues, Apr 24, 2001 at 07:13:49 (GMT)
From: PatC
Email: None
To: Katie Darling
Subject: hey, Katie, I became a writer so I could imagine
Message:
FLYING and not have to actually do it. I can also imagine skiing and bungee jumping and other dangerous sports. I'll just watch you and put myself in your shoes.

It's been years since I was on the Miwok Trail and I think dogs are banned even on-leash. I'm not mad about poison oak ever since Chuck and I got stoned in some woods in Bolinas once and danced in a patch of bluebells. Chuck got a bit carried away and rolled in some poison oak by mistake.

Just watched Billy Elliott and imagined that I was a kid daydreaming about ballet without having to go through all the agony. Best movie I've seen in months.

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Date: Wed, Apr 25, 2001 at 21:11:35 (GMT)
From: Katie Darling
Email: None
To: PatC
Subject: hey, Katie, I became a writer so I could imagine
Message:
Yes, that was a brilliant movie. Although it did remind me of the verbal abuse in my family, which is from northern England.

Okay, you don't have to fly, or walk the Miwok (although dogs are all over it).

See you at pigeon-fanciers ;––)

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Date: Tues, Apr 24, 2001 at 02:40:28 (GMT)
From: Mickey the Pharisee
Email: None
To: PatC
Subject: Beauty of this world better than any imaginary
Message:
Pat, I loved your description of the hummingbird babies. This morning I saw two Toucans sitting on the branches of a tree in our yard; the sunlight was reflecting off their beaks and it was beautiful. Then they both flew away. There is really nothing like seeing a Toucan fly; the way they balance everything with those enormous beaks! At that same moment four green and yellow parakeets flew over me, squawking and heading for their favorite tree.

This evening I was standing outside looking at the stars while the dog did her business and saw a kinkajoo walking along the telephone line. When I look at the rainforest next to my home and all the birds and animals which surround me and the incredible stars (very little ambient light around here) I, too, appreciate how the actual beauty of this world is better than the imaginary worlds of mysticism.

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Date: Wed, Apr 25, 2001 at 14:23:14 (GMT)
From: Sandy
Email: None
To: Mickey the Pharisee
Subject: Hi Mickey
Message:
I, too, appreciate how the actual beauty of this world is better than the imaginary worlds of mysticism. -Mickey

Mickey,
I am very surprised by this comment from you in light of Jesus' saying that His kingdom was not of this world and that the kingdom of heaven is within us. Imaginary worlds of mysticism? Do you really think He was deferring to nature as His kingdom, with no inner mystical reference to the inner experience of the 'kingdom of heaven being within us'?

There's bullshit woo-woo mystical where someone is skinning folks and then there is the genuine article. Can you please explain your comments a bit further?

I too appreciate nature in all its glory and sort of envy your climate and surroundings, being in New Jersey and all. yeah, I know, I'm not supposed to covet. Thanks for the mental images of your life experience in the rain forest region.
Sandy

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Date: Wed, Apr 25, 2001 at 16:24:06 (GMT)
From: Mickey the Pharisee
Email: None
To: Sandy
Subject: Hi Sandy
Message:
Sandy, I will say right off that I am not a fan of the gospel attributed to John; it is full of mysticism and the big Magic Jesus. The references to Jesus's kingdom come from John. I prefer the synoptics, especially Mark, but I also know that none of them are accurate historical depictions of the life of Jesus. They are theological documents, they are depictions of what one might call 'Salvation History.'

Also, if you read any recent English translations (except for the terrible New International Version) you will see that the text reads 'The Kingdom of Heaven (or God's Kingdom or the Reign of God) is in your midst,' not 'within you.' I have mentioned this many times here, especially when some premie proof-texter would bring up that phrase. The Reign of God is a world without hatred or racism or classism or sexism or homophobia or illness or poverty or gurus or all those things which keep us from working together for the good.

You read the scriptures as mystical documents, full of prophecy and little gnostic secrets. I read them as depictions of the faith of people thousands of years ago but not historically accurate. I try to read them keeping in mind the political, social, and cultural context. The majority of what you consider prophecy in the Hebrew and Christian scriptures was not prophetic in the woo-woo Nostradamus/Edgar Cayce sense, put prophetic in the sense of calling people to repentance. Isaiah was usually talking about Cyrus of Assyria when he talked about the Messiah; later the Christians took those prophecies and applied them to Jesus. The gospel accounts were written with those prophecies in mind; those events probably did not happen.

I believe that Jesus wanted people to work to eliminate poverty and injustice; I don't think he was a magic, mystical guy.

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Date: Wed, Apr 25, 2001 at 17:06:52 (GMT)
From: Sandy
Email: None
To: Mickey the Pharisee
Subject: Hi Mickey
Message:
I believe that Jesus wanted people to work to eliminate poverty and injustice; I don't think he was a magic, mystical guy. -M the P

I think Jesus was both a social engineer and a mystic. Have you ever read the books by Edmund Szekeley of the International Biogenic Society, one series being some thin paperbacks entitled 'The Essene Gospel of Peace'? In it, purported to be direct translations from ancient scrolls found in the desert circa Dead Sea Scrolls, Jesus talked aobut being a vegan, doing enemas, fasting and using plants to heal disease. Also in these writings are prayers from Moses that sound very much like Native American prayers.

I'm not as wigged out about a hippie dippie Jesus as you may interpret from my limited postings here.

S

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Date: Wed, Apr 25, 2001 at 19:58:15 (GMT)
From: Mickey the Pharisee
Email: None
To: Sandy
Subject: Sources
Message:
Sandy, I haven't read the book you mentioned nor even heard of it. I have my doubts that Jesus was a vegan and was into enemas and stuff. There were many non-canonical books floating about, especially during the third century. They were like little spiritual novels, but they were not meant to be taken literally. In the Acts of Peter there are talking dogs and flying scorcerers, but I think we all know that it is just a story. I would be inclined to but your ancient scrolls of the desert in that category. I own some Essene scriptures and have read them, but they have more to do with Essene eschatology and nothing to do with diet outside of the usual rules from the Torah.

Sandy, I know that what bothers me about your posts on the bible and such is your willingness to accept almost any non-orthodox source or anything which goes against accepted scholarship, yet you seem to reject anything orthodox. It is as if you are still sixteen years old, rebelling against everything. This makes it difficult for me to converse with you, because I find most of your sources to be questionable.

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Date: Wed, Apr 25, 2001 at 20:39:22 (GMT)
From: Sandy
Email: None
To: Mickey the Pharisee
Subject: Sources
Message:
Sandy, I know that what bothers me about your posts on the bible and such is your willingness to accept almost any non-orthodox source or anything which goes against accepted scholarship, yet you seem to reject anything orthodox. -Mickey

Sounds like what they told Jesus. He accepted the non-orthodox source of the Spirit of the law, not just the letter. And he stood in the place of the law, personally personified the summation of the whole law as Love, Forgiveness and Compassion, this style to forever replace the-eye-for-an-eye Old Covenant. I realize how revolutionary and dangerous He must have looked to the orthodoxy of his day, which refers to your second point. And no, I do not think I am He, but I am his little brother and I have been a great admirer of His and devotee of His ever since we were introduced in that silly mystical thing you don't believe in...toucans flying in the sunset, my brother Mickey, may be very beautiful, but are no match to meeting up with the spirit of Christ...it must just be the semantics, because I can't believe you said that. -Sandy

It is as if you are still sixteen years old, rebelling against everything. This makes it difficult for me to converse with you, because I find most of your sources to be questionable. -Mickey

If you look at these two sentences you just said, you are mixing age level with competence to evaluate my sources. I think that is age discrimination against teenagers everywhere AND I also think it's a power trip that you didn't even know you were doing.
I forgive you. The scribes and pharisees found Jesus so totally questionable they did not come to His aid in the face of death.
NOW THAT'S QUESTIONABLE! So if you, who hold the keys to the present orthodoxy find me questionable, I am in good company.

Sandy

PS Talking dogs and flying sorcerers...'but I think we all know that is just a story'. Mickey, if you believe that Christ got crucified, died, got entombed for a few days, and rose from the dead to ascend to Heaven, then what's the stretch to believe in talking dogs and flying sorcerers?

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Date: Wed, Apr 25, 2001 at 23:42:41 (GMT)
From: Mickey the Pharisee
Email: None
To: Sandy
Subject: Sources
Message:
Please, Sandy, you spend way too much time convincing yourself that you and Jesus share the same ideas. We will never agree; you are incapable of overcoming your Sunday School theology. As for your comment accusing me of ageism, I'm sure you may have noticed teen-age rebellion, that rebellion which seems to kick against anything whether or not the idea is worth rebelling against. You know, unthinking rebellion. That is what I accuse you of. It doesn't matter if one is sixteen or fifty-two, one should actually think about what one is rebelling against and for what reasons.

You are anti-intellectual; you have convinced yourself that this means you understand the spirit of the Law instead of the letter, but I don't think you even understand the spirit. Jesus was knowledgable about the Law, you just make up cute little stories about what it was like to be around Jesus.

I know that you are unable to see the sanctity dripping from your post, but you really need an editor.

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Date: Thurs, Apr 26, 2001 at 00:01:25 (GMT)
From: Szandy
Email: None
To: Mickey the Pharisee
Subject: I am not going down this road any further
Message:
You said nothing about what I spoke to you about. You just went into critique mode.

These slightly irritated but restrained veiled insults about each other's ability to discern the truth and who knows Jesus better....this is where I get off the train. You can have the last word on my alleged incompetency, immaturity, whatever you wish. I will sit out this tango.


Sandy

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Date: Thurs, Apr 26, 2001 at 00:05:37 (GMT)
From: Mickey the Pharisee
Email: None
To: Szandy
Subject: Thank you. nt
Message:
dddddddddd
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Date: Wed, Apr 25, 2001 at 17:04:02 (GMT)
From: PatC
Email: None
To: Mickey the Pharisee
Subject: Amen, Mickey. Thanks for your post.
Message:
I sometimes jokingly refer to myself as an agnostic Anglican but I'd come to sermons at your church any day.

Recently I posted Paul's Cor 13 to Sandy which to me is a blue-print for civilization not theological mumb-jumbo but I was misunderstood. I did that because the Sermon on the Mount is too long but to me that is the ultimate blue-print for heaven on earth.

Thanks again.

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Date: Tues, Apr 24, 2001 at 02:51:58 (GMT)
From: PatC
Email: None
To: Mickey the Pharisee
Subject: Thank you for that, Mickey. I see why you live in
Message:
Panama. The exuberance of wild life in the tropics is more psychedelic than any silly acid trip. But sometimes I'm lucky and, as soon as I open my eyes in the morning, I realize that everything single little thing that I am seeing is....well I'm not a poet so I'll use Blake:

''To see the world in a grain of sand

and heaven in a wild flower.''

Who needs drugs, urugs or Hindu mumbo-jumbo when we have our senses and simple intelligence?

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Date: Tues, Apr 24, 2001 at 15:56:34 (GMT)
From: Cynthia
Email: None
To: PatC
Subject: Beauty of this World...
Message:
Yes, Pat, and everyone,

That's why I chose to live in Vermont. It's like living in a different country because it changes so little in terms of development. There are a lot of political fights about this, but for the most part, preserving the beauty of the land is and has been the major priority.

Winter is over and most of the snow has melted into the mountain streams that flow down into the Mad River in the deep valley where I live. The roar of Mad River can't be described. I live and sleep by it. I can't believe we actually do see ruby throated hummingbirds here--they migrate from so far away and are so tiny--plant anything that's a shade of red (like bee balm or echinachea) and we can sit and watch those little hovercrafts for hours--fast little fuckers, too.

The change of seasons is so dramatic this time of year. Over the weekend as I drove around so many people were outside raking lawns, removing winter's detritus, getting rid of the crusty old leaves and salty gravel from their yards. I call it ''scratching Mother Earth's back.'' Everything comes back to life in so many shades of green it takes my breath away. This is all around me. I know I sound like a Vermont commercial, but I actually DON'T want more people to come and live here. The fewer the better. There's a bumper sticker some people have that says ''Welcome to Vermont, Now Go Home.'' But it is tongue in cheek because tourism is the industry here.

It can be a hardship living in a totally rural state but it's worth it. Come and visit sometime....

Love,
Cynthia

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Date: Tues, Apr 24, 2001 at 18:17:49 (GMT)
From: PatC
Email: None
To: Cynthia
Subject: Cynthia, I do miss lush green-ness
Message:
We won't have any rain for 6 months now during the summer and everything turns brown and whar few streams we have become dry creek beds. My garden is xerophytic - mostly plants from that part of South Africa with a summer drought.

I meant to say Anna's (not Allens's) hummmingbird is the only one that sings. Anna's throat is deeper red than Allen's too.

Seeing fall in New England is still on my wish list. But you can keep the winters.

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Date: Mon, Apr 23, 2001 at 14:44:25 (GMT)
From: toby
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: Wolle (Wolfgang) Peters
Message:
Does anybody remember Wolle Peters?
He used to take care of maharajis car park and was a resident premie as far as I know.
His ex-wife petra took care of rajajis(or m's haha) navlata for a while.
He left in the end of the eightees back to hamburg but he didn't
leave the cult.
Does anybody know details?
Was he X-rated?
Maybe M.Donner, or M.Dettmers know?

Toby

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Date: Tues, Apr 24, 2001 at 09:13:39 (GMT)
From: AJW
Email: anthginn@yahoo.com
To: toby
Subject: Wolle (Wolfgang) Peters
Message:
Hi toby,

Wolfgang is still living in Hamburg. He has been sick lately. He had a kidney transplant and I think there were problems recently, but I don't know any details. I saw him in London a few weeks ago and he seemed alright, but I think his kidney kicked up when he got back to Hamburg.

Email me if you want to get in touch with him.

Anth Ginn

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Date: Mon, Apr 23, 2001 at 13:25:30 (GMT)
From: Tony
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: EPO site is making a dent
Message:
G'day all,
It looks as though EPO is working.In the rather small community that i belomged to up until exing 6 months ago,there had been a few aspirants who had been coming along each week to video events.They seemed quite intent on getting K,but all of a sudden they turned away.These aspirants were contacted just prior to the recent K session in Sydney,but did not bother to show.
This begs the question.WHY?I know one of these aspirants is married to a guy who was not interested in coming to programs.He said instead he would check out M on the net instead.Here is the first clue Sherlock.I bet he found EPO.I am presuming the other two aspirants may have done the same thing too.After all more and more people are getting online and surfing the net
At video programs people are told that they can look up various K sites.Whenever I am told web addresses it goes in one ear and out the other.I just use search engines instead.I wonder how many premies and aspirants have done the same and found EPO.It will be interesting to see.

Cheers Tony.

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Date: Thurs, Apr 26, 2001 at 06:52:06 (GMT)
From: such
Email: None
To: Tony
Subject: just hope someone has 'comprehensive coverage'!(nt
Message:
nt
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Date: Tues, Apr 24, 2001 at 13:59:34 (GMT)
From: JSK
Email: None
To: Tony
Subject: EPO site is making a dent
Message:
What a difference a year makes.

Last year (or so) I put up the questions to the 'search engines' and came up blank.

the truth will set you free

or as b dylan said 'I used to care but things have changed'

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Date: Mon, Apr 23, 2001 at 18:18:07 (GMT)
From: Mr. Mind
Email: None
To: Tony
Subject: EPO site is making a dent
Message:
Yes Tony, the existence of the various Ex-Premie sites has helped much. I also feel that our successful infiltration of the Synchronized Participation Teams is reaping rewards as well.
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Date: Mon, Apr 23, 2001 at 18:09:15 (GMT)
From: cq
Email: None
To: Tony
Subject: the Maha is EV's biggest liability
Message:

It must come as a terrible shock for newbies and aspirants, who previously knew little or nothing of M's real history, to discover a place like ex-premie.org, where quotes, pictures and first-hand accounts of life with the Maha all give a very different picture to the one that elan vital (and the maha) prefer to propagate.

The very fact that EV and M are so eager to deny their past must be a major factor in accounting for the dwindling numbers of aspirants. The only places where EV has a hope of gaining newcomers are in places where there is no access to the internet. And there's not going to be too many of those places left before long - even in third world countries (so-called, I believe, not because of 'first' or 'second' world, but because at the time the phrase was thought up, the poorer nations accounted for ONE THIRD of the world's cultures).

Ironic isn't it - how spreading 'knowledge' is accomplished most easily among people who have NO knowledge of M's past.

If premies genuinely and seriously want to propagate this meditation, you know what the biggest stumbling-block to that is?

Yup, the biggest liability is none other than the Maha hisself.

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Date: Mon, Apr 23, 2001 at 23:30:42 (GMT)
From: G
Email: None
To: cq
Subject: 'resistance will come from where you least expect'
Message:
'Resistance will come from where you least expect it.'

- said by goomiragey himself

Does this make him a prophet???

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Date: Mon, Apr 23, 2001 at 19:58:08 (GMT)
From: Sir Dave
Email: None
To: cq
Subject: Most of our computing is done in India
Message:
Since Indian labour is cheaper than in Britain and because the work ethic is very strong in India, our main big national organisations do their computing in India. They're well connected in the cities.

On The Truth about Maharaji website, the top countries to visit it are America, Australia, Canada and the UK as you'd expect but there are regular hits from India and India is the thirty second most prolific country to visit the site, ahead of Italy, Mexico and Brazil.

South Africa has visited slightly more than India and seems to be the main African country to visit the site but Morocco has visited and also Guadeloupe (is that in Africa?).

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Date: Tues, Apr 24, 2001 at 14:57:15 (GMT)
From: salam
Email: None
To: Sir Dave
Subject: Guadeloupe
Message:
shit bang little island in the caribbian south of Puerto Rico. 1780 sq km. about 450,000 people. 4% Indian religion.

Thanks, that will be 5 bucks.

Contact the CIA for further details.

http://www.cia.gov/cia/publications/factbook/geos/gp.html

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Date: Tues, Apr 24, 2001 at 11:37:15 (GMT)
From: janet
Email: None
To: Sir Dave
Subject: thats excellent news. it means that we are
Message:
reaching the Indians in India,, and probably the expatriate Indian community in south africa that Pat C was so worried about getting the facts to.
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Date: Mon, Apr 23, 2001 at 20:12:24 (GMT)
From: Sir Dave
Email: None
To: Sir Dave
Subject: Discovered Guadeloupe is in West Indies (nt)
Message:
zzz
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Date: Mon, Apr 23, 2001 at 14:31:43 (GMT)
From: Sir Dave
Email: None
To: Tony
Subject: and here's why
Message:
Well, if they search for Maharaji on AltaVista they'll get Not Maharaji's Mixed Bag in at number six on the index on the first page amongst all Maharaji's spam. At number 17 they'll get Jean Michel's site and at number 24 they'll get ex-premie.org.

On Yahoo! they'll get Roger Drek's site and ex-premie.org immediately on the first page and going to the sites, they'll get Not Maharaji's Mixed Bag again in the first 20 sites amongst all the Australian and other country's Elan Vital crap.

At Google.com they'll get a lot of Maharaji's Italian spam (why so much?) but indispersed amongst it is Roger Drek's pages of revelations about Maharaji.

Worst of all, on Excite it's just terrible for the Lord. On the very first page they'll see Roger Drek's pages with Maharaji dancing with his flute and also more stuff from Roger. They'll also see a link to Maharaji's (unofficial) Homepage.

Looks like he's fucked, every which way.

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Date: Mon, Apr 23, 2001 at 18:46:08 (GMT)
From: JohnT
Email: None
To: Sir Dave
Subject: more ...
Message:
... august and impressive sites you mentioned, Sir Dave. But even my own modest effort turned up when I searched Google for ex-premie org!

The more sites ex-premies and friends put up (preferably with links to epo and the other places you mentioned) the better will we rate in the various search engines.

Build sites (however modest) and link them to the heavy-weights, that's what I say!

JohnT
never a premie

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Date: Mon, Apr 23, 2001 at 19:28:19 (GMT)
From: Gregg
Email: None
To: JohnT
Subject: the winner: HotBot!
Message:
A search for 'maharaji' turned up ex-premie org hits on the 4th, 5th and 7th place, and a Drek hit on #9!
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Date: Mon, Apr 23, 2001 at 19:59:16 (GMT)
From: Sir Dave
Email: None
To: Gregg
Subject: He's well screwed then (nt)
Message:
xxx
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Date: Mon, Apr 23, 2001 at 21:53:31 (GMT)
From: Tony
Email: None
To: Sir Dave
Subject: When I said EPO,I should've given all
Message:
The other ex premie sites the credit as well.Good work guys.When I learn a bit more about this fucking computer I will try and do a site myself like John T suggested.

Cheers Tony.

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Date: Mon, Apr 23, 2001 at 11:22:29 (GMT)
From: Nigel
Email: fitzroy@liverpool.ac.uk
To: Everyone
Subject: The dead skunk and the timewarp experiment
Message:
It is frustrating to watch the tired rationalisations of visiting premies but their arguments can be disturbingly familiar. Although it is twenty years since my days of full-on commitment, for over half a decade I absorbed and lived the devotee's worldview so completely I swear I could yet flip into that mode of thinking at the drop of a krishna crown. It's like riding a bike: once learned, forever there in some latent memory loop, another Piagetian schema or script (or 'macro', to use Pat C's recent term in a dysfunctional sense).

There was no internet or ex-premie website when I was a paid-up cultist. But if there had been, how would I have felt by, say, Michael Dettmers' disclosures? How would I have posted to an online forum? Would I yet float disengaged above the turmoil? I fear this last answer might be 'yes'.

So what follows is an attempt to take that old cult trainset down from the attic, blow the dust off and see well how it runs in the face of the allegations now publically available. For the most part, the exercise is easy: a case of selective attention to detail, dilution of significant content, the well-turned blind eye and hastily-assembled alibi. I say it is 'mostly easy', but is there a point where playing premie's advocate becomes impossible?

Well, let's give it a whirl... (BTW: none of the following five paragraphs bear any resemblance to my present views)

re. Jagdeo. Disgusting business, of course, and tragic he could get away with it for so long. But I don't believe M knew anything about the abuse - otherwise he'd have done something about it. Of course he would. Maybe premies passed their concerns up the food chain, but the chances are if word reached the top it was probably expressed as minor concerns that the mahatma was showing 'a bit too much affection' towards the kids - completely innocent - but liable to be misconstrued. Maybe M did say 'keep an eye on him so nobody gets the wrong idea', but took no firmer action because the full facts were hidden from him.

And I have no problem with M's wealth. For me it is like Judas in the Bible complaining about the expensive oil Mary used to annoint Jesus' feet. Jesus said 'the poor are always with you, but I am not' etc. Maharaji, at least, can own all that stuff and not become corrupted or attached to it. Anyway, the things of this world are finite - the things that really matter are not of this world and thanks to M are mine to enjoy. Hell - give him the bloody lot, I say. It is a small price to pay for the most incredible, unbelievable, everlasting gift he has bestowed on all of us. Besides, for all we know, M may give a fortune to good causes but would surely be too modest to mention it.

Re. Drinking and drugs. I can think of two equally-plausible justifications here. First, when you are permanently connected to the source, you can indulge in the sauce with impunity. Nothing can touch you - but by so doing you can understand where the Western mind is at - all our weaknesses and failings - and therefore how to present K in a non-Hinduistic manner. Or possibly, to take on a human form is to take on susceptibility to those human weaknesses, to suffer cravings, pleasures and pains along with the rest of us, much as Christ did; who, come to think of it, was criticised in his day for associating with thieves and prostitutes...

Which brings us to the 'sexual predator' allegations. Well, what do we really know here? M was in a difficult position. Surely as entitled as anyone else to a fulfilling adult relationship, what options did he have when he discovered his wife was being unfaithful? Given the special nature of His work, what chances to meet suitable new partners without encouraging the premie gossips or shit-stirrers? Lining up a few exploratory blind dates is no crime. Who can say whether the purpose was explicitly sexual or that M's behaviour was other than gentlemanly during such liaisons?

Re. Being God, then not being God. Well there's nothing unreasonable here given a basic knowledge of M's cultural background. The guru, as faciliator of the devotee's experience of God is freely accorded God-like status by the norms of bhakti tradition. Bringing that tradition to the west was found to cause confusion among would-be recruits raised with a different God concept. There is also a generational factor; the decades roll on so the message must be tailored not only to its location but also to its times.

But then there's the hit and run incident........

And sorry - here's where my clockwork winds down. I simply can't do it. How can anyone? Unless Dettmers is lying (and who would risk their professional reputation with a libel of that magnitude?) we must accept that having accidentally knocked down a cyclist, Maharaji fled the scene, leaving a man to die and an innocent houseboy to take the rap. And never mind that DLM compensated (or bought the silence of?) the bereaved family, M's behaviour on the day defies all standards of decency and morality - never mind that such behaviour is also criminal under any legal system you care to cite. In this case, not even Turner's 'cultural relativist' stance will hold water.

As Clint Eastwood says in Unforgiven: 'It's a hell of thing to kill a man'.

That Maharaji can kill a man then flee like a coward was almost a shock when I read it last year - even by the low standards I had come to expect of M. I am certain my timewarped premie belief system would not have survived this revelation - no matter how much of a K experience I might have felt I was having. There's no ambiguity in the events of the incident and thus no room for spin-doctoring.

So I simply could never have sat and listened to him give satsang again - and I don't understand how the likes of Mel, Sandy or Dep can stomach this ugly knowledge about their 'Master' and continue to sing his praises. The guy's a worm. A yellow-bellied creep whose behaviour on this one occasion negates whatever reframing or positive spin you can cook up to justify the rest of it. I mean, surely?!

The unfortunate cyclist might be long buried but - in the immortal lines of Loudon Wainwright:

'There's a dead skunk in the middle of the road / and it's stinking to high heaven'.

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Date: Tues, Apr 24, 2001 at 08:06:09 (GMT)
From: Mel Bourne
Email: None
To: Nigel
Subject: The dead skunk and the timewarp experiment
Message:
Nigel

An interesting point you've raised here.

Firstly there are some major differences between you (and other ex's) and people like Sandy, Dep or myself. The most obvious being how long you've been out of the 'cult'. Although you say switching your mindset is as easy as riding a bike, you have the advantage of been an 'ex' for a considerable period of time (from your post I couldn't tell whether it's 15 or 20 years). This, course, makes it very easy to express the depth of your indignation about Maharaji. I other words you are used to thinking like an 'ex' and have had years of practice.

Don't be fooled into thinking that Dep, Sandy, myself or other premies are any LESS indignant about these matters than you, but we are coming from a different emotional background. We are having to grapple with our own conflicts involving genuine feelings of love and respect for Maharaji and the information that has been given on this site. We have no experience of being 'ex's' and, therefore, cannot immediately meet your expectations and on how we should react and express ourselves.

In fact your assertions maybe a tad hypocritical. For example, how did you (and other ex's) factor the Fakiranand incident into your daily life of devotion. Although there was no internet then, the episode was well known in the community. Did you complain loudly about the incident with all the self righteous indignation you are now using to complain about premies who are trying to come to terms with their own changing perceptions, or did you simply bury it in satsang, service and meditation like everyone else?

I think you are treating us a bit too unfairly. These days we are NOT 'singing Maharaji's praises' as your sanctimonious spin would have everyone believe, we are simply trying to come to terms what we have been presented with, and, not unsurprisingly, may be inclined to vacillate in our opinions.

Mel

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Date: Tues, Apr 24, 2001 at 09:48:12 (GMT)
From: Nigel
Email: None
To: Mel Bourne
Subject: The dead skunk and the timewarp experiment
Message:
In fact your assertions maybe a tad hypocritical. For example, how did you (and other ex's) factor the Fakiranand incident into your daily life of devotion. Although there was no internet then, the episode was well known in the community. Did you complain loudly about the incident with all the self righteous indignation you are now using to complain about premies who are trying to come to terms with their own changing perceptions, or did you simply bury it in satsang, service and meditation like everyone else?

As a premie I knew nothing about the hammer attack. I had heard about the pie incident, but the bit about Fakiranand's divine retribution was strangely absent from the accounts I heard. Would it have made a difference? Probably not - unless it were also established that M authorized the attack. My post here was about the man himself - the guy who demanded I surrender the reins of my life, and in whom I had placed total trust, over and above all significant others in my life.

Anyway, I see nothing hypocritical in giving the honest view that I truly cannot conceive of remaining a premie or feeling any love for the man whisked away in his getaway car that day in India. M had just killed a man, for Christ's sake. My residual faith in Balyogeshwar's omni-everything would have expired along with the poor cyclist.

That's the point I was making.

How about you? Can you or any premie really now sit through a video of M walking in slo-mo across the wet sands to the sounds of new-age harps without images of that shabby incident intruding like a bad smell?

I think you are treating us a bit too unfairly. These days we are NOT 'singing Maharaji's praises' as your sanctimonious spin would have everyone believe, we are simply trying to come to terms what we have been presented with, and, not unsurprisingly, may be inclined to vacillate in our opinions.

Perhaps you personally are no longer singing his praises, exactly, but you all seem to be cutting the guy way too much slack for your own good.

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Date: Tues, Apr 24, 2001 at 13:54:27 (GMT)
From: Katie H
Email: None
To: Nigel
Subject: The dead skunk, Fakiranand, and naming names
Message:
Hey Nigel (and Mel) -
Nigel, I thought your post was very good EXCEPT for naming Mel, Sandy, and Dawg at the end. I don't see either of these three going around 'singing Maharaji's praises', although you may be correct about cutting the guy too much slack (some EX-premies do this, too, BTW!) There are definitely premies around who think in the way portrayed by your post - but I don't see Mel and Dawg doing it - at least not lately - and Sandy seems to be all over the place right now.

Stereotyping of any group of people raises my hackles (I HATE the 'men are from mars, women are from venus' stuff, for example), and I can see why Mel was annoyed that you mentioned him. I dislike it when people associate me with an attitude I don't have, and especially when they refuse to allow me to change - I've been though that on this forum, as y'all probably know!

Re Fakiranand (to change the subject) - we were told about the incident in satsang directly after it happened. The head of the community was VERY upset about it, told everyone that it was a terrible thing, and wrong, and that M had NOT encouraged it, and in fact, deplored it. So, yes, it was easy to fit it into our mind-set at the time - crazy premies going nuts. Of course we didn't know that M cooperated in getting Fakiranand out of the country (although he WAS only 16 at the time - and Mata Ji may have had more to do with it than he did.)

Take care,
Katie

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Date: Tues, Apr 24, 2001 at 14:48:26 (GMT)
From: Nigel
Email: None
To: Katie H
Subject: Well if not 'singing praises'...
Message:
Hi Katie,

Perhaps I did use too broad a brush in naming Mel, Dep and Sandy - but only in terms of their current forum contributions, not in terms of the rationalisations they have employed over the past couple of years on this forum. And I suspect they must still be employing similar excuse-making strategies, if only on a subtle level, if they imagine M has a shred of credibility left after reading all the information this website has made available.

Mel's stance until recently has always been politely hostile - or that is impression I have gained - and I would say he has made plenty of broad brush attacks on forum posters of his own. (It's all in the archives, right back to his earliest posts where he objected to posts about Jagdeo being published here.)

And as Way, below, points out, Mel has stated very recently he would still be visiting Amaroo. In the context of my thread, a very salient point. It is as if our hit-and-run driver (amongst other things) still might just have something to teach us about life, the universe and everything.

re. your post lower down. Point taken that recent exes is maybe innapropriate after all, and yes, there really is nowhere for questioning premies to go on the web if they don't like the frank exchanges which happen here. An obvious oversight on the part of Elan Vital, methinks.

But there is always email, of course, and - as you know - plenty of TLC available from exes here, at least those of us whose style of support is thus oriented ;)


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Date: Wed, Apr 25, 2001 at 00:47:27 (GMT)
From: Katie H.
Email: None
To: Nigel
Subject: Well if not 'singing praises'...
Message:
Hi Nigel -
I know what you mean about the archives - however, people DO change (some of the ex-premies on here have posted very 'singing praises' posts at first!), and I like to give them credit for it if possible. I think Mel, Dawg, and Sandy have changed - and the archived posts point this out. (I have changed as well since I first started posting here.)

If Mel is indeed going to Amaroo, I'd like to hear what he says when he comes back. And I also can understand his reasons for going - I did the same thing when I was on the edge of leaving. The event (then, festival) ended up being the final drip - actually, more like a bucket of cold water right in my face - but I felt like I had to give M a chance.

Hey, I thought YOU were going to Amaroo too :)!

Take care, Nigel -
Love,
Katie

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Date: Wed, Apr 25, 2001 at 02:13:53 (GMT)
From: Nigel
Email: None
To: Katie H.
Subject: Why do suppose I'm NOT at Amaroo?
Message:
Laptop and cell-phone technology has come a long way since the Lord landed..;)
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Date: Wed, Apr 25, 2001 at 13:24:06 (GMT)
From: Katie
Email: None
To: Nigel
Subject: I can just see it (snicker)
Message:
You and Mel at Amaroo, sitting next to each other and typing on your respective laptops :).

Well, have a good time, Nigel - wherever you are!

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Date: Tues, Apr 24, 2001 at 11:06:08 (GMT)
From: Mel Bourne
Email: None
To: Nigel
Subject: The dead skunk and the timewarp experiment
Message:
Nigel

'How about you? Can you or any premie really now sit through a video of M...without images of that shabby incident intruding...'

Speaking for myself, of course not.

'..but you all seem to be cutting the guy way too much slack for your own good.'

Not at all, it may seem that way to you, but we are in a process of a deep personal adustment that doesn't have to comply to a time frame dictated by you (instant?).

Mel

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Date: Tues, Apr 24, 2001 at 11:44:33 (GMT)
From: Nigel
Email: None
To: Mel Bourne
Subject: see my reply on 'Oh really, Mel' sub-thread...(nt)
Message:
nt
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Date: Mon, Apr 23, 2001 at 23:29:17 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Nigel
Subject: Oh come on, Nige -- that one's simple too
Message:
When I first heard about this car accident, I was almost confused. That is, I almost started thinking about it instead of just enjoying the simplicty of my own life. Life is precious, as Maharaji so lovingly reminds me every chance I get to go into within inside or buy another video. So precious, indeed, that Maharaji knew how important it was for him to be able to quickly leave India and continue doing what he's so selflessly committed to doing, travel the world with his message of appreciation and gratitude.

How easy it would have been, I realized, for Maharaji to stay there in India for however long it might have taken the authorities to complete their investigation. All of India loves Maharaji so he could have oh so simply sat back, enjoying all of India's gifts of love and attention. He could have treated it as one big vacation and really done nothing for days or even weeks. But Maharaji's never like that. Rather than hiding behind some thin excuse to beg off his taxing schedule, Maharaji left the country. (I mean, this is if anything at all happened in the first place and I honestly don't see the point of even talking about that on account of its inherent negative connotation not to mention the fact that it certainly doesn't affect me. If Maharaji killed someone then that guy had THAT experience. It's not my experience, is it?) I see nothing wrong with that nor am I ever going to judge my master anyway.

All I know for sure is that I have an experience. Now, I understand that Maharaji may have paid off the negligent 'victim's family although it's not clear if they paid Maharaji anything at all for any damage to his vehicle or his own pain and suffering. Anyway, my point is that that's THEIR experience. I've got mine and you've got yours. The bicyclist had his. So who am I to judge?

Besides, it should also be said that Maharaji was a LOT younger then and, temporarily at least, back subject to the morals and conventions of another part of the world, one that we know absolutely nothing about. It would be presumptuous for anyone of us to comment, especially in light of the fact that this entire episode must be unimaginably difficult for the family of the bicyclist. I don't think they'd appreciate knowing that their loved one's death is being blabbed about so insensitively here by Dettmers and his gang. But then, as we all know, Dettmers never did get it anyway, did he?

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Date: Tues, Apr 24, 2001 at 12:16:01 (GMT)
From: janet
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: oh my dear brother, have you forgotten?
Message:
it says in the Gita that whatever the Lord touches, He liberates. That bicyclist had the most divine death one could hope for! Remember how the very reason the whole Bhagavad Gita took place was because Arjuna saw his relatives and family massed on the battlefield for War and he could not bring himself to kill all these people he knew and loved and grew up with? And in breaking down to Krishna, his charioteer and best friend, that was what moved Krishna to explain to him that he was not the Doer, that all these people were already dead by Krisha's will, and that Arjuna was simply carrying it out? and he showed him His True Form so that Arjuna would understand who his friend was, and would see that it was all Maya and not real.
Didn't Krishna specifically tell him that to be killed by the Lord guaranteed instant liberation and the holiest death a being could ask? The very touch of the Lord purifies all karmas and all sins and returns the soul to its pure source.
Don't you remember?
Mahraji was MEANT to kill that person and personally free them from the cycle of birth and death. He did'nt need to wait around and deal with the police and the authorities. It wasn;t important who they thought did it. One is as good as another to agencies like that. The brother who stood in and answered for Maharaji was showing the strongest devotion and service a devotee could ever show. He reaped great blessings by serving his lord in such a selfless way, enabling maharaji to leave at once and continue his nonstop work of giving this gift to all humanity. What we are thought of by the ignorant creatures of the world is of no matter. There will always be confused persons who will judge and not understand and measure everything by what they themselves think. It is a waste of time to stop and argue with them. They will see and come in their own time. Maharaji wants to give his time only those sincere seekers, those souls who are truly thirsty, truly ready, who have banged their head on the four corners of this world and have found it to be false. Only such souls as this are truly ready to surrender the reins of their life and be shown the Truth.
O my brother, how could you doubt that it was Perfect, just the way it happened? Maharaji KNEW that brother would be there on that bike, and was there at the perfect time to liberate him from this world and fulfill the greatest destiny any human being could long for.
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Date: Tues, Apr 24, 2001 at 08:37:02 (GMT)
From: Mel Bourne
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Oh come on, Nige -- that one's simple too
Message:
Jim

You seem to change mind sets more easily than, Nigel. Are you a better bicycle rider too?

The problem is that you (and he) are confusing a projection of you own former premie mind sets with the views of current premies. You do yourself and your former 'premie-self' a huge disservice if you really think that the majority of rank and file premies are as insensitive you portray, but you've always had this predisposition for stereotyping haven't you?

Mel

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Date: Tues, Apr 24, 2001 at 09:22:53 (GMT)
From: Nigel
Email: None
To: Mel Bourne
Subject: Oh, really, Mel?
Message:
The problem is that you (and he) are confusing a projection of you own former premie mind sets with the views of current premies.

re. the 'views of current premies'. Check the names who have responded to this thread. Most exited in the last couple of years. Strangely, Pat C reckons I'm echoing his thoughts.

Or are the views of current premies not the same as those of the nineties?

Evolution, I guess...

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Date: Tues, Apr 24, 2001 at 11:21:01 (GMT)
From: Mel Bourne
Email: None
To: Nigel
Subject: Oh, really, Mel?
Message:
Nigel

Do you really think that I am unware that some premies probably think in the way you have parodied in your original post, maybe even the more recent ex's that you've cited would. That certainly doesn't indicate that most other premies would. Stop trying to gloss over the fact that the purpose of your post was designed to deliberately stereotype and ridicule premies including those like myself who contribute to this site. You named us specifically.

Some support you provide for people who are trying to make adjustments!

Mel

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Date: Tues, Apr 24, 2001 at 11:41:51 (GMT)
From: Nigel
Email: None
To: Mel Bourne
Subject: Oh, really, Mel?
Message:
Sorry, you are completely wrong, Mel. I was NOT trying to stereotype or ridicule anybody and I'm not glossing anything over. I still find the premie belief system fascinating - and a bit frightening - not least because I was as susceptible as you or any of the others to its attractions.

As for 'parody', no parody intended - that was exactly how I used to think. Maybe your rationalisations have been different to mine, but I doubt you could have been a premie this long without having equivalent cognitive strategies, if not the same ones.

Maybe you are a little over-sensitive at present? - understandable if you are going through a major re-evaluation of your involvement. In which case 'recent exes' might be a more congenial environment. Seriously. You choose to post here, and your comments, past and present, are thus fair game for public scrutiny as I see it.

(And mightn't there have been a touch of ridicule and stereotyping of ex-premies in your 'sycophant' comment to Pat, below?)

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Date: Tues, Apr 24, 2001 at 14:02:35 (GMT)
From: Katie H
Email: None
To: Nigel
Subject: Nigel and Mel
Message:
Hey Nigel and Mel -
Just so you know, Recent Exes is for those who clearly state they are ex-premies. Many of the people who have chosen to post there do not want their posts to be read by current premies (understandable, I think, when you are trying to work things out.) There really isn't a place for current questioning premies to post.

Also, my experience on this forum is that 'support' is communicated in a lot of different ways and the effectiveness of the tone of said support varies from person to person. Some wavering premies do indeed respond positively to some very confrontational posts - I have seen this happen over and over again (on the other hand, it makes other people just get into endless arguments). Some premies are more responsive to gentle and supportive posts. Both kinds of posts can be found on this forum - it ain't a perfect system, but it's all we have.

Take care, both of you -
Katie

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Date: Tues, Apr 24, 2001 at 01:32:47 (GMT)
From: PatC
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Jim - that's brilliant. A MUST READ POST!
Message:
You said it perfectly. I bet Glen Whittaker will use most of your post for his EV revisionism project. Ten US dollars. You on?
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Date: Tues, Apr 24, 2001 at 08:39:44 (GMT)
From: Mel Bourne
Email: None
To: PatC
Subject: Jim - that's brilliant. A MUST READ POST!
Message:
Pat

What a sycophant, and I thought you were capable of independent thought as a junior 'ex'.

Mel

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Date: Tues, Apr 24, 2001 at 10:21:42 (GMT)
From: Nigel
Email: None
To: Mel Bourne
Subject: Lighten up, Mel...
Message:
Didn't you even raise the merest flicker of a smile reading Jim's post? Come on, you must have done!

Anyway, praise and sycophancy are two different things. The former is for exes whose posts are rated, and the latter for PAMS holding posts which are 'x-rated'.

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Date: Tues, Apr 24, 2001 at 11:35:25 (GMT)
From: Mel Bourne
Email: None
To: Nigel
Subject: Lighten up, Mel...OK
Message:
Nigel

Didn't you even raise the merest flicker of a smile reading [my post to Pat?] Come on, you must have done!

Pat, unfortunately, copped some of the annoyance I felt regarding your original post.

I apologise, Pat, if I offended you.

Mel

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Date: Tues, Apr 24, 2001 at 18:01:04 (GMT)
From: PatC
Email: None
To: Mel Bourne
Subject: Mel, you can't offend me. I don't know who you are
Message:
I know you mean well and I accept your apology although I understand why you insulted me and accept the insult too as long as you realize that I was joking. Thank god Jim knows when I'm being dry or wry. I hope you also saw that Jim's post was meant to be over the top.

I hear your obvious sincerity. I just wish I could get to know you better and you would tell us who you really are.

I do wish you well. As I said to Sandy, I went through the struggles you guys are having for a long time before I posted here. And even then some exes accused me of cult thinking and of course they were right. It takes a while to find one's very own voice after having either had to toe the party line or been silenced for many years. Good Luck.

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Date: Tues, Apr 24, 2001 at 13:57:29 (GMT)
From: Way
Email: None
To: Mel Bourne
Subject: Mel, I thought you were attending Amaroo
Message:
Mel,

The last time we 'talked' you were planning on attending Amaroo this year. Yet you seem to be posting here on the first day of the event. Are you attending? I was hoping you would attend and let us know your reactions.

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Date: Mon, Apr 23, 2001 at 22:57:21 (GMT)
From: TD
Email: None
To: Nigel
Subject: I'm glad the fact that M killed a man has been....
Message:
...acknowledged again here in such depth, as I cannot fathom how even the most hard-core premies justify or cult-rationalise that particular issue. The others I can understand, as I deluded myself into believing them too. What if the Bible had a story in it about Jesus running over a Samaritan in his chariot and killing him, and then his disciples go and buy off the family's silence..... mind you he could of for all we know - but hopefully in his mythological way, he raised the poor squashed bastard from the dead! ;-)
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Date: Mon, Apr 23, 2001 at 21:18:42 (GMT)
From: berni
Email: None
To: Nigel
Subject: The dead skunk and the timewarp experiment
Message:
Hi Nigel,
Just wanted to say 'great post' - you have a way with words - and to comment on a couple of things
Although it is twenty years since my days of full-on commitment]
me too. Also the fact there was no ex-premie website/forum made it hard to have the confidence to abandon the ship that was heading for Nirvana.
but I don't think, and sincerely hope that I will never slip back into that mode of thinking. I 've learned my lesson and it was a hard one.
As to being premie advocate..
I agree that M possibly did not know about Jagdeo or many of the other terrible things that were going on in his spiritual community. He probably did not want to be bothered with details ( like most higher managers) and the premies immediately below him did not risk upsetting him with these unpleasant details.
The whole thing was a fantasy world and no one would want to rock the boat with worldly matters.

Another good point I have no problem with M's wealth. For me it is like Judas in the Bible complaining about the expensive oil Mary used to annoint Jesus' feet
if he was indeed the lord of the universe surely we couldn't object to a few Rolls Royces and the other luxuries, after all he did create the universe - or at least knew a man(god) who did.
Wasn't this the logic that we used and that maharji talked about as being the divine logic based on a true infinite foundation.
wow - we were fools to fall for it weren't we? One thing it has taught me is never to be cocky about what I think is the right way to live this life. 'won't get fooled again' (here's hoping)
Anyway - thanks for the insightful post
cheers
Berni

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Date: Mon, Apr 23, 2001 at 20:27:25 (GMT)
From: Lesley
Email: None
To: Nigel
Subject: Doing the timewarp experiment
Message:
I don't think I could have walked over the procurement, using, and dumping of the blondes. That really disgusted me. After Amaroo '97, where I met Monica Lewis, I had a series of truly horrific nightmares. One comes to mind where Maharaji was like a terrified bully child pursued by harpies who had finally joined up together and were exacting their judgement!

Incidentally, try imagining what it is like to have nightmares like that when you are a hapless premie!

What actually happened for me when I first visited this site, was seeing all the lies and revisionism laid out. Hey, he's lying about my past, I don't like that......hmmmmmmm, what else is he lying about?!?

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Date: Mon, Apr 23, 2001 at 19:34:55 (GMT)
From: PatC
Email: None
To: Nigel
Subject: Nigel, you have just put my thoughts into words
Message:
It's quite eerie because I have been thinking along exactly the same lines. I knew about the meat, booze and wealth, the god-not-god and all the other human weaknesses and it did not bother me. Chuck even told me about the Jagdeo stuff over a year ago and it did not bother me. But as soon as I read about the manslaughter wobble dance it was over for me.

It was easy to rationalize all his other peccadilloes but that one is absolutely unjustifiable. This to me is the crux of the matter and the one thing that I always post to visiting premies.

Thank you so much for writing this post and doing the work of putting my thoughts into words.

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Date: Mon, Apr 23, 2001 at 08:34:41 (GMT)
From: PatC
Email: pdconlon@yahoo.com
To: Everyone
Subject: Yes, Premies, I am still very fond of Maharaji
Message:
I will probably always think of Miragey with a tinge of affection. Why? Because, like Patty Hearst, I became enamored of my kidnapper into a mysterious cult? No. It's because I'm a sentimental person and usually recall the best parts of my past fondly and embellish them with romance and adventure.

My first ten years of involvement with Maharajism were both heaven and hell. I was older than most of my premie peers as I had been older than most of my hippie brethren and I straddled the beatnik/hippie divide and belonged psychologically and culturally more to the former than the latter.

I know with certainty that I suffered more mental conflict in the cult than most of my premie peers in the seventies. I belonged more to the beatnik (''Sartresque nausea'' ''existential angst'' ''why kill time when you can kill yourself'') generation than the flowerchild (''do you own thing'' ''make love not war'' ''tune in, turn on and drop out'') generation.

Those same premie peers were mostly ''fringe'' premies who did not chase after darshan as frenetically as I did or sacrifice personal comfort and happiness as I did or give all their money to Rawat as I did. Maybe it is not a generational thing but an individual trait because many current posters (who are much younger than I am) displayed the same single-minded dedication and seriousness of purpose.

Those same fringe premie peers of mine are still in the cult and most of them would have a fit if I told them it is a cult. I don't think they have ever taken it quite as seriously as I have. The thing that I have noticed most about the premies who post here is that they strike me as having been ''fringe premies'' all along.

The premies that I know in San Francisco are also like that. They have been able to adapt to the revisionism (''don't worry, be happy'' ) because they never took the old LOTU (''guru is greater than god'') stuff seriously.

For that reason I cannot take Sandy or Deputy Dog seriously but strangely I am able to feel sympathy for the Catweasels and Cerises of FV because at least they are passionate enough to attempt to defend their Master and are not simply wishy washy apologists for a woo-woo new age feelgood church of no social responsibilty and white suburban apathy.

So, yes, I am still fond of Miragey but that does not mean that I will let Rev Moon Lighting as a Pilot Rawat off the hook. He got rich (and misused his wealth) on the backs of those who made sacrifices in his name 20 to 30 years ago. Yes, I am still fond of the mirage of the LOTU who bounced in like a 13 year old Merry Prankster but enough is enough. The jowly debauchee of Malibu no longer claims my sympathies.

PS to Rev Moon Beam: ''You better make good, sir, before it is too late. Do you need me to spell it out for you? Sorry, if you haven't figured it out for yourself already, then it really is too late.''

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Date: Tues, Apr 24, 2001 at 00:10:03 (GMT)
From: jumbler
Email: None
To: PatC
Subject: fondness my arse
Message:
I'm pissed, you're pissed, we're all pissed off......
why?
because of one simple fact
the guru's methods & mission LIED to honest, innocent genuine, naive, hopeless, lost, truth seekers
he told us his way was THE way,
he didn't say 'hang on, take your time, consider the alternatives, read, learn, understand, then come to me'
he said 'fall at my feet now, with no consideration for your family, friends, or well being & it will all be o.k, regardless of your maturity, mental health or any other consideration, do it now my son, oh & i'll take your meagre belongings & grasp on sanity while i'm at it'
fondness, fondness are you fucking serious?
the guy's damaged how many lives?
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Date: Tues, Apr 24, 2001 at 23:16:04 (GMT)
From: Nigel
Email: None
To: jumbler
Subject: Concise, eloquent, well-put...
Message:
You said it all, jumble person. Cheers!
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Date: Tues, Apr 24, 2001 at 23:22:52 (GMT)
From: Moldy Warp
Email: None
To: Nigel
Subject: Concise, eloquent, and most impressive
Message:
x
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Date: Tues, Apr 24, 2001 at 01:37:43 (GMT)
From: PatC
Email: None
To: jumbler
Subject: That's the way, jumbler. As the Yanks would say
Message:
It sounds like you're mad. Mad means been heatedly angry whereas pissed means being coldly indignant in the US. I waver between the two but all I know is that revenge is a dish best eaten cold. He must pay for his lies and other crimes.
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Date: Wed, Apr 25, 2001 at 00:43:11 (GMT)
From: jumbler
Email: None
To: PatC
Subject: rambling on....
Message:
I don't want to attack spirituality,yoga,meditation,or even the 'techniques', all of which are beneficial to humankind.
Information about which is available without loss of self, or need of superdupergurism from your local bookshop.

My gripe is with 'the mission' as I knew it in the 70's & what I percieve it to be continuing today....

How would this question stand up in a court of law, morality or common justice?

Did/does the 'product' that DLM/EV offer, & the means by which it was/is propogated cause people harm?
If the answer is yes,
Then Captain Dingbat O'Krishnahat as CEO of DLM/EV is culpable, & should be brought to account.

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Date: Wed, Apr 25, 2001 at 23:34:03 (GMT)
From: PatC
Email: None
To: jumbler
Subject: bringing Rev Moon Beam Rawat to accou
Message:
I'll do my bit by discrediting guruism (all gurus stink in my book even the socalled good ones.) For me, if you've got a product sell it honestly but GOD is not a product that can be sold. I will show my friends and family how to meditate if they want to learn but I'm not going to say to anyone that's it's god for crying out loud.

But I am also personally looking into a tax investigation because as far as I'm concerned I was deceived into thinking that I was donating money to help Rawat spread K all over the world. Meanwhile the pig was using it to buy watches, artwork and yachts and pay off the family of the guy he killed with his car.

You can do your bit too whatever form that takes.

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Date: Wed, Apr 25, 2001 at 18:36:37 (GMT)
From: cq
Email: None
To: jumbler
Subject: bringin' the Singh bin to account
Message:
you're absolutely right there Jumbler, but the thing is - unless there's a law in your country against indoctrinating people into cults, the authorities have nothing to act on.

However, if a felony/crime can be proved to have taken place, with more than just circumstantial evidence, then you've got something to work with.

The task of bringing Rawat to account is not an easy one, but can you imagine how much harder it would be without ex-premie.org?

I guess we're just doing the best we can, with the info we've got.

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Date: Tues, Apr 24, 2001 at 19:06:13 (GMT)
From: cq
Email: None
To: PatC and Jumbler
Subject: dish best eaten cold
Message:
does this (click here) help?
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Date: Tues, Apr 24, 2001 at 19:21:31 (GMT)
From: PatC
Email: None
To: cq
Subject: dish best not eaten at all - Hamster Spam
Message:
I never touch pork especially not Long Pig as the Melanesians call human meat. As for Lardy Hog Guru Greaseball...the less said the better - too gelatinous.
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Date: Mon, Apr 23, 2001 at 16:04:11 (GMT)
From: Katie Darling
Email: None
To: PatC
Subject: Yes, Premies, I am still very fond of Maharaji
Message:
Very interesting post, Pat.

When I think of my early approach to MJ, I remember one of the most magical times of my entire life. I was nobody's standardized hippy - for one thing, the drugs made me weird(er). I could no longer be the entity that my intensive British education had prepped me to be. I slipped into a mode that felt archetypal and mythological, as though I was remembering an ancient self. Although almost everything about MJ and K was distasteful to my intelligence and sensibilities, there was a maverick feeling about the whole thing that got me in. It was all so amateurish, but there was this passionate belief in the potential salvation of the planet. I dedicated myself passionately, giving up my education (I left university to join the ashram), the respect of everyone I knew, and, for many years, the opportunity to have a few pennies to buy my preferred hair conditioner. I was completely dedicated. And in that, weird and dysfunctional though it was, there was a kind of passion that was ignited, that gave me the juice to go to all these places Mata Ji and MJ sent me and be completely inspired and sure that I was telling people about the ABSOLUTE, the one and only, the LOTU.

So I sometimes read the more watered down (and frankly less insane) versions of premiedom that express on this website, and I must admit that there is a part of me, too, that doesn't get it. But hey, put up the rainbow flag of diversity, I say.

Much love Pat, Katie Darling

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Date: Mon, Apr 23, 2001 at 18:29:42 (GMT)
From: PatC
Email: None
To: Katie Darling
Subject: Katie, in the early seventies Miragey was a real
Message:
person for me but by the time I came to the US in 78 he was just a dot on a far-off stage and then that dot became a slickly packaged video and now he just another televangelist. Now I realize that I have never really known the man at all.
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Date: Mon, Apr 23, 2001 at 13:58:14 (GMT)
From: Sandy
Email: None
To: PatC
Subject: Pat
Message:
'For that reason I cannot take Sandy or Deputy Dog seriously but strangely I am able to feel sympathy for the Catweasels and Cerises of FV because at least they are passionate enough to attempt to defend their Master and are not simply wishy washy
apologists for a woo-woo new age feelgood church of no social responsibilty and white suburban apathy.' -PatC

Pat,

I can understand how you have judged me. For the sake of the conversation you have begun on this thread and for accuracy, I want to chart some of my history too. This is not a defense, but one really needs to watch it when one labels or pidgeonhole folks. I have told parts of this story before, so if anyone is seeing this twice, chill out. It's for Pat.

I was consciously seeking 'truth' and the meaning to life since the late 60's. After leaving college and living on a communal farm (a technicolor beatnik hippie monestary, you would have loved it), I traveled around, testing many of the scriptural promises of being taken care of...I hitched around the US without a backpack, food or money, slept by the roadside under trees, and had many very amazing experiences. I earned my keep, working odd jobs for food and needs as I went my way and feeling very free and in sync with the universe. I did this without a 'parachute' of having somewhere to go if I screwed up, even though my folks would have welcomed me with open arms, that was not an option.
Then as I was passing thru Chicago in 1973, I joined a robed holy order and spent threee years with them. Had some very amazing experiences there too. Owned about three robes, a summer one, a winter one, a spare, and the rest of my belongings fit into one dresser drawer. I learned how to help cook and wash clothes for thirty. We would get up predawn, pray, meditate, then go out to day jobs to support the brotherhouse. I have worked in warehouses, metalforming shops, administrative offices, many different jobs. After work we would come home, clean up then have dinner and classes or go out walking and talking to people.
Free time was on Saturday. I got $5-10.00 week spending money.
That was for three years 1973-76. During that time I lived in Chicago, Wichita, Detroit, Carbondale, Indianapolis.

During my time in the Order, I saw a poster of Maharaji, in 1974 in Indianapolis. Then I was sent to Carbondale, IL where I met premies and started to become convinced from within and without that I should leave the Order and seek Knowledge. I had no doubt in my mind that Maharaji was who I was seeking and the Knowledge was all the good stuff from all the scriptures rolled into one simple experience. That process took 4 years..I had alot to clear out from Judeo-Christian-hippie ethic, or so I thought. I wandered around, hitching from Miami to Toronto, following mahatmas and programs around and demanding to have Knowledge revealed, for I was a wandering and sincere sadhu, who had left a holy order to meet up with the livng Master. I slept on premie house floors and lawns from Toronto to Hartford to Philadelphia, doing day work and pleading for Knowledge. I was told by at least two mahatmas (Barbara Kolodney and Some guy whose name I don't recall) that I would not be allowed to get Knowledge until I got a job and my own place to stay, in other words, until I was self-supportive on the physical. So with the help of some very nice premies who kind of kept a lead wire on me like a hot-air balloon to keep from it flying away, I settled down for a spell in Philly long enough to receive Knowledge in 1978. Then within a year, I went to Miami to the 1978 program and stayed there until 1985. Got set up with a job, a place, etc with the help of some Miami premies.

I looked around and listened to the mahatmas and the coordinators and Maharaji of course. What I heard him speak to my heart (can't show you the exact quote) is that I could have anything I wanted in this life as long as I put Knowlege first and did satsang, service, and meditiation, which I did. I figured I had done my time in ashram life and I could now be free to live any style I chose. I remember going to meetings for the ashram and also to meetings for the householders. What I heard was travel at your own speed and give what you feel to give of yourself, don't force it. That was circa early 80's in Miami. Maharaji lived there at the time and life was good. I was never rich, never did any real close service to him, never in on any rez stuff, always had a pile of bills to pay, and was very conflicted when Maharaji used to say it was OK to get in trouble with the little boss...just be cool with the big boss...this was in direct reference to staying over at programs and possibly losing one's job. The little bosses were employers and anyone else in authority in one's life, and of course, Maharaji was the big boss.

So let's take a moment here, Pat and look at something. I had gone from being a college student to being a communal farmer to being a wandering sadhu in the best and most faithful tradition of the term, to being a robed brother, to being an aspirant to being a premie. It felt like lifetimes of stuff coming out in those years, like a composite of a soul on a search, using any and every way to find what was sought, without any mental barriers or fences holding me back from looking wherever I thought it might be. This was done without a credit card from daddy in my hip pocket, no net.

In 1981 I met a premie lady while doing service and we married a year later. Our first son was born in 1984 in Miami. We moved to NJ in 1985. Second son born in 1988. Life was good, but material plane was a struggle, commom situation of millions. I was never lazy but work was becoming harder and harder to find, with downsizing and high-tech taking over. I am still discovering ways to survive in right livlihood. Then in the late 90's, I ran across this site. Since then and for the sake of the essence of what is being expressed here, my life has changed dramatically. My wife now has something else to complain about besides my being intermittently in and out of work (but it was OK when Maharaji said not to worry about the little bosses)...now she thinks I have been brainwashed by you exers. The mere fact that I converse with folks on this site freaks her out. She doesn't even realize that I am very conflicted about all this, just the fact that I talk to you all suggests to her that I have lost it. She wants to separate now, and I would say in large part due to my less than 100% good feelings about Maharaji.

OK, enough about me. I just wanted to share a bit with you to let you know that I do not fit the description you ascribed above. Of course I want to do the right thing in all situations in my life. Of course I want to do the right thing here now.
But after going through what I just lined out above and realizing that is almost the sum total of my adult life, I have to catch my breath and look around real hard before I make another major move. I don't want to knee-jerk again, I want to go slow and do what is right for me and for the general good as well.

I am not without common sense, morality, compassion, empathy. Of course I recognize the injustice, the unfairness, the immorality, the hypocrisy the sickness and criminality that is recorded here. I'm not blind. But I am conflicted about how it's being played and how I should play it in my own life. I still believe that Maharaji's bottom line is spreading Knowledge, not his boat or jet or land or watches, even though it looks that way to you.

But suburban wishy washy woo-woo? You got the wrong house, Pat.

Sandy

PS As for the 'white suburban apathy' you accuse me of, in 1988 I quit a very lucrative career in executive recruiting which would have translated into a very comfortable retirement, because I was faced with the rampant behind closed door discrimination in the industry. Major companies we dealt with wanted Barbie at the front desk (whether she can type or not), and a white American educated male as the plant manager. Period. Alot of this stuff was starting to cross my desk, since I was good at placing people. After a few calls and conversation with others in the work, I left the industry sooner than do racial, sexual, age, weight, and all other forms of discrimination against anyone. I called the state dept of labor in NJ and they told me it's everywhere and you can't really do anything aobut it unless you want to become a major whistle blower. Black executive recruiters in NYC were even doing it to their own brothers and sisters just to make the placement and collect the commission. Some things just can't be legislated or changed overnight. This stuff will go on until people's hearts have changed. And I didn't want to be an accomplice.

So Pat, this in not a defense or anything like that. It's just an attempt to give you a more complete picture of someone you judged. Everyone else, rip away if you must. I have greater pains than you could ever inflict here by cutting my words up.

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Date: Mon, Apr 23, 2001 at 19:06:47 (GMT)
From: PatC
Email: None
To: Sandy
Subject: Sandy, thank you for your passionate story
Message:
When I start writing a post impulsively, as I did last night, I never know where it will end up. I started the thread thinking that I was going to say that I had once, in the early seventies, passionately adored a real person but that I had to admit that I never really knew him except mostly as a dot on a far-off stage or as a slickly packaged televangelist and that really I had adored a mirage.

But the post took a turn I had not planned on. At least it evoked your terrific response for which I am glad.

By the time I moved to the US in 78 a lot of that early seventies cosmic energy and a feeling that we really knew Miragey had disappeared. There had been a sort of glasnost in 76 which had toned down the LOTU vibe and I know premies who came in after that were not as crazy in love with him as the old acidheads had been. That slight loosening of the reins allowed premies of the late seventies and early eighties to interpret what Miragey said anyway they wished. But till then it had been verboten. If Miragey said eat shit we'd eat shit.

My partner of 19 years, Chuck, who got K in 1980 never really understood my gopiness. He tolerated it and probably just figured that I was like that because I had taken too much acid. For him, Miragey was just a guru/teacher. Only now, as I am recalling my early premie days, is he seeing to what extent I was a gopi. I never had to sell a kidney like Pauline Premie but I still had it bad. When you were getting K in Miami I was sleeping on the roof of the satsang hall in Coral Gables because I had just spent every penny to get to Kissimee.

But I don't want to make it seem that I think that I was a more fanatical gopi than you. Your story showed me that you also were really a passionate seeker. (I spent two years in a monastery before I got K too and I know that you don't do that unless you are serious.) No, I think you were a hungry gopi and that is why you are still fond of Miragey. I wish I could tell you what final thought broke my attachment to him but it wasn't quite like that. It took years.

In the end the only difference between you and me is that I am not married to a premie. That must be a very difficult position to be in and I am very sympathetic to your problem and please know that I wish you well.

The only thing I have ever asked of you (or anybody) is that you be true to yourself. If you want to be a passionate premie that's fine with me as long as you are passionate and not just apologetic about your love for him. I have always appreciated your posts when you are speaking with that fire in your belly.

I know you don't really have anything to be annoyed about with Miragey personally. I do. I can't stand that I have been lied to about something as important as love. To me the closest thing I have ever known to something which I may want to call GOD is love. When Miragey said: ''Give me your love and I will give you peace,'' I took him literally and once i give my love it is for ever. I feel that he has treated my love disrespectfully. I'm not going to let him get away with that.

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Date: Mon, Apr 23, 2001 at 15:23:43 (GMT)
From: Katie Darling
Email: None
To: Sandy
Subject: Sandy - your hairy journey
Message:
Thanks for posting what is essentially your 'journey.'

I admire how you take a lot of hits and determinedly hang in here, holding your shifting ground, not being any particular way to placate anyone. Even though it may sometimes feel unkind, and I personally wouldn't do my gradual leaving in that public way (too sensitive) I feel sure that it will make you very strong in your own truth, which, after all, is the antithesis of cultism.

I'm so sorry to hear that your flirtations with this page have freaked your wife out and made your marriage rocky. All the more courage for you to have continued this hairy journey.

It's a very hairy journey, stepping out of one certainty and not immediately entering another, but exploring the edges of uncertainty the way you are doing it. You are still a kind of wandering saddhu, I would say. Who gives a shit if I agree with all your speculations? What business is it of yours? I am here to support your journey into your own truth.

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Date: Mon, Apr 23, 2001 at 13:49:40 (GMT)
From: Bryn
Email: None
To: PatC
Subject: Yes, Premies, I am still very fond of Maharaji
Message:
Dear Pat,
Just chatting with Loaf and then saw your post so:
I am not fucked up because I was drawn into Rawats cult;I was drawn into Rawats cult because I was fucked up. Obvious enough- but get this. I stumbled on a website of the old boarding school/military academy I was sent to age six/seven back in 1956- St Georges College, DEHRA DUN! You may or may not know that His Lordship was educated down the road at an identical institution called St Josephs, Dehra Dun.
I admit at this stage of my life that this place set in stone in my mind certain values and assumptions. It set them so deep that it was only at the sight of the place on the internet that I remembered that I had been there! In short, put a kid of six in a place like this and he will be fucked up for life.
What interests me is the dawning possibility that I have been fucked up by exactly the same forces that fucked him up. Only difference is he hasn't realised yet. As long as you never waver and navigate staunchly by your unconscious Military/Jesuit brainwashing you will always come out a winner-at least in your in your own mind. Its a great formula for charisma, and getting money/ power. The classic reaction for me was to become a spiritual campaigner-direct opposition to such overwhelming forces is impossible for a child,but all that's another story.
Al I want to convey here is that me and rawat were fucked up by the same school!
love Bryn
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Date: Mon, Apr 23, 2001 at 19:21:02 (GMT)
From: PatC
Email: None
To: Bryn
Subject: Jesuits say: ''Give me a child before 7 years old
Message:
and we'll have him for the rest of his life.''

Your story is fascinating. Were you born in India?

St Joseph's was not Jesuit was it?

Yes, like you, I was fucked up before I met LOTU. That's why I went to him. I went to him for help but soon discovered that god only helps those who help themselves.

I became a catholic when I was 7 when I had to sit in the back of a catechism class in detention. I heard this: ''Why did god make you? He made you to know him, to love him and to serve him.''

I was baptised a few months later and went to catholic boarding school when I was 11 and ended up joining the order (Marist Brothers) for two years before I saw through THAT cult.

There seem to be a lot of ex-catholic ex-premies.

I would love to learn more about you.

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Date: Mon, Apr 23, 2001 at 15:49:44 (GMT)
From: Disculta
Email: None
To: Bryn
Subject: That's fascinating, Bryn! (Long response)
Message:
This is one of the most interesting posts I have read in a long time! I have looked at my own involvement with MJ a lot. Why did I get magnetically drawn to him, rather than one of the other gurus or schmurus around?

As I was exploring all this, after leaving the cult, through various kind of therapeutic exploratory vehicles, my more urgent question was this: 'Why do I tend to attract the kind of men I attract (which relationships are not working out happily, needless to say)?' To my amazement and annoyance (I was and am too rebellious against the standardized therapy world to want to buy this 'easy answer') I found that I was continually attracting men like -- yes -- MY DAD! Not that they looked like him or were in any way externally like him - in fact I never dated a 5'2' physicist (although come to think of it, someone else was 5'2', but I'm getting there...).

The way these guys resembled my dad was in a more subtle way. My limbic attractors recognized certain patterns of the way these guys habitually organized their attention. (The whole subject of limbic attractors, a.k.a. the 'gosling imprinting syndrome,' which I have mentioned before on this page, is really fascinating to me, and if anyone is interested, try the extraordinary book, by a group of scientists, 'A General Theory of Love.') Sometimes I would be fooled by externals, but later, in retrospect, it would be clear why that one guy, among all the long-haired dudes at the party, piqued my - er - interest. The next thing I realized was that Maharaji fell into this same category for me. He was activating the very same limbic attractors as the particular kind of wrong-for-me like-my-dad guys I was having a difficult time with. This was a big revelation to me. Who knew? I was never really attracted to MJ in 'that' way, although I think I pretended to be, in true gopi style. But the real attraction, for me, was to a man who was very sure of himself in a certain way, but not that interested in me, beyond what I could do to enhance him (you see why I am posting as Disculta here, not that my dad even has a computer, bless him...?).

Bryn, when I read your account of the typical personality fostered by your school and Maharaji's, I almost jumped out of my ergonomic chair. Same profile as the one I described above! And then I thought about it, and realized that my dad also went to the sister school, in another English colony (Wales). So the actual source of my cultic attraction and bondage to MJ actually stemmed from the school my dad went to! Glad I've finally got it all figured out!

(BTW, re the 'man' thing, I gradually disconnected some of my limbic wiring, and over a few years shifted my attraction pattern, and now I am living happily ever after with my right partner, who is not 5'2').

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Date: Tues, Apr 24, 2001 at 12:10:51 (GMT)
From: Bryn
Email: Bryndaviesesq@hotmail
To: Disculta
Subject: To Pat and Disculta.
Message:
Thanks for your posts. I am doing a major review of it all at the moment, and things are connecting and opening so fast I find it hard to find a starting point to make an immediate sensible reply. I was taught to read and write at the nightmare Catholic Acadamy in Dehra Dun-the technique was you were given as many cane strokes on the hand as you made mistakes-so composing text on the subject is a bit of a sweat at the moment!
Rawat said they were Jesuits once, Pat. The details could be different.
Disculta, you said something like 'a certain kind of strength' in a man (the gender issue is irrelevent here IMO). Yes, I have access to that strength, and it is no more than armour. I suspect Rawat of the same bogus mastery. It is all done 'underneath' and has the religious military feel of the 'Inquisition'!
I know of the Jesuit bragging about their power to 'save'. They are subtle bastards-but so am I.
I am going to stop now. I,ll probably be back later. Thanks again
love Bryn
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Date: Mon, Apr 23, 2001 at 02:33:24 (GMT)
From: jondon
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: Handicap facilities at Amaroo???
Message:
One of the local premies had an operation on her knee recently and will be attending the Event in Amaroo, in a wheel chair. I wonder if, in his infinite wisdom, M has incorporated in the building plan the ADA (American Disabilities Act) specs for handicapped people (sorry, physically disabled). Or maybe he incorporated the ADA (Amaroo Disabilities Act) specs:
This is the Outback, baby, rough it.

She is staying in the DELUXE Tent which allows you to use the shower and toilet facilities which is off limits to the Peons, or people who can't quite cough up enough dough for the doughboy. Can't wait to hear her stories about how wonderful it was and how blissed out she gets. The other premies are drawing straws to see who has to push her around the whole week. At least she won't be stepping on those nasty scorpions.

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Date: Mon, Apr 23, 2001 at 06:46:53 (GMT)
From: Pete Brach
Email: waig2000@aol.com
To: jondon
Subject: Handicap facilities at Amaroo???
Message:
Hi everyone,

I am joining the forum because Guru Maharaji was a tremendous part of my life at one time. In the Gita I understand that Krishna stated that even those who follow a false guru with the right attitude will be blessed. It is my impression that a fair percentage of the premies were bhakti yogis from past lives. I don't think that the efforts we made was a waste of time. For me to love, know and serve God is still the purpose of life.

I know that a lot of ex-premies feel betrayed and harbor deep resentment. But you know, trials and tribulations come to every single person in pursuit of truth. If we can have the courage to accept our lot in the right spirit we will progress.

Best to all of you,
Pete Brach

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Date: Tues, Apr 24, 2001 at 18:36:28 (GMT)
From: cq
Email: None
To: Pete Brach
Subject: they had false gurus in Krishna's time too? (nt)
Message:
plus ca change ...

(and welcome to the forum)

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Date: Tues, Apr 24, 2001 at 03:49:30 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Pete Brach
Subject: Hi Pete Brach
Message:
It is my impression that a fair percentage of the premies were bhakti yogis from past lives.

Hi Pete. So, if we divide the forum into spiritual and non-spiritual for one of our regular baseball games, which side you want to play on? Hm, let me guess .....

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Date: Mon, Apr 23, 2001 at 09:27:41 (GMT)
From: PatC
Email: None
To: Pete Brach
Subject: Hi, Peter, and welcome to Forum Five
Message:
You said: ''In the Gita I understand that Krishna stated that even those who follow a false guru with the right attitude will be blessed.''

Now, that's the kind of guy I like to have at a party but I'm a sentimental old fool. Don't let the party-poopers, wet-blankets and parade-pissers get to you.

''Stiffen your sinews, summon up your blood;

Disguise fair nature....etc etc etc'' as the Bard would say.

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Date: Mon, Apr 23, 2001 at 08:06:26 (GMT)
From: salam
Email: None
To: Pete Brach
Subject: Handicap facilities at Amaroo???
Message:
what rock you've been under.

Krishna said. Well tell Krishna that I said %$^tf)+

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Date: Mon, Apr 23, 2001 at 05:48:15 (GMT)
From: Francesca
Email: None
To: jondon
Subject: From Amaroo Application packet
Message:
On page 2 of the application:

'Assisted Access
Assisted access is a service for those who need some
assistance in getting to the conference venues or who have
special seating requirements for medical or physical
impairment reasons. On-site transport to the Pavilion,
amphitheatre and campground reception will be provided.
Bathroom facilities for people with disabilities will be provided
in all main event areas, including Pavilion, Amphitheatre,
Reception and the Campgrounds.
Assisted access staff will be available to help with appropriate
seating at event venues. We are unable to provide individual
attendants or equipment. We will arrange for your attendant
to be accommodated next to you if required. When
registering for the event, please note your assisted access
category on the form, and then fax a letter to +61 7 5464 8388
to provide the name of your attendant or other information.
Assisted Access Categories:-M
for mobility impairment. For those who will require
vehicular transport to event venues.
V for visual impairment.
W for wheelchair users.
H hearing impairment.
A if you are bringing an attendant or if you are an attendant.

then on page 5 they talk about how to fill out the fax form for assisted access

item 9 on page 6, the application, is for the assisted access code.

If they read the instructions for filling out the application (most people don't read these and just wing it, I guess) they would have read about what to do, so hopefully they've made arrangements. The amaroo application is in PDF format on the Elvan Vital website and if you search for the word access (click on the little binocular icon on the toolbar and type in 'access' you'll find the first occurrence, then click the icon with the binoculars and the arrow above it to find successive occurences).

Of course, on page 4, HAIL THE ENTRANCE OF THE LAWYERS, they tell you that they aren't obligated to do squat for you, and if you paid a lot of money to get there, too bad:

'MEDICAL CONDITIONS
If you or any member of your party is an expectant
mother or suffers from any physical challenge or
medical condition, you must check with your
doctor about the advisability of travelling abroad.
While we endeavour to provide the highest level
of service to all our participants, we cannot
generally provide special facilities or assistance for
disabled participants and it is your responsibility to
arrange for such assistance. Neither Elan Vital Ltd,
the Operators nor any of its suppliers, shall be
liable for any illness, injury or death arising from a
medical condition whether or not such medical
condition was pre-existing at the commencement
of the arrangements and whether or not it was
disclosed to Elan Vital Ltd or the Operators.'

And here's the applicable law:

'LAW APPLICABLE
The contract incorporating these conditions in
governed in all respects by the Law of the State of
Queensland in Australia and any legal action
arising must be litigated in the appropriate Court
having jurisdiction in that State.
Elan Vital Ltd Registered Office: 3 The Drive, Hove, East Sussex.'

Then they tell your friend she may further be screwed:

'All bookings are accepted strictly on the basis
that you accept these conditions. Bookings may
be cancelled and we reserve the right to levy full
cancellation charges as set out in these conditions.
SPECIAL REQUESTS
We will endeavour to comply with any special
requests you may have. These must be made in
writing at the time of booking. However, we
cannot guarantee that any special requests will
be provided.'

And here's the gobsmacker:

'CONTRIBUTIONS
Regardless of the method of payment, all voluntary
additional contributions are deemed to be in
favour of the Elan Vital organisation nominated by
you and will not be refunded in the case of
cancellation by you or us.'

How sweet. That $800 per person you paid to sleep in that tent. I you don't come or if we cancel, well, shove it, pal.

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Date: Mon, Apr 23, 2001 at 05:50:08 (GMT)
From: Francesca
Email: None
To: Francesca
Subject: I forgot to add -- don't have a baby there or ...
Message:
it might get a great name like Satganga. It really happened, as the old timers can attest. The rumor was that the parents were freaked out about the great name. Hope they didn't use it! I think it meant river of satsang, or something so appropriate to being born at a program.
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Date: Tues, Apr 24, 2001 at 01:59:52 (GMT)
From: Tonette
Email: None
To: Francesca
Subject: He liked the name Sunita too!
Message:
Lots of little girls in cult land with that name. He sure wasn't very original! Quickly ran out of material just like his tired, repetitive dogma.

Satganga was named at Rome, Hans Jayanti 1977

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Date: Thurs, Apr 26, 2001 at 06:43:42 (GMT)
From: such
Email: None
To: Tonette
Subject: all I got was a stinkin' Hans Jayanti t-shirt (nt
Message:
nt
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Date: Tues, Apr 24, 2001 at 02:33:27 (GMT)
From: PatC
Email: None
To: Tonette
Subject: You've got a good memory, Tonette
Message:
So, Satganga was named at Rome, Hans Jayanti 1977. I knew I was there when it happened but couldn't place it exactly. So little Sattie will be 24 soon. I wonder how many Goth piercings and tattoos she has or if she is a church-lady in waiting.
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Date: Tues, Apr 24, 2001 at 03:15:02 (GMT)
From: Tonette
Email: None
To: PatC
Subject: one can only hope
Message:
That Satganga and all the premie children developed into adults outside of their cult parents thinking. Hopefully a real generation trap between premie children and their parents evolved so the children have a way out of M's trap.

The innocent children of premies is a recurring theme that continues to bug me to this day. I know how I felt at the time when I witnessed first hand some of the conditions these children were subjected to because their parents were in a cult. Always putting the Lard of the Universe first. 'Grace will take care of us' thinking. I could go on and on. At the time I thought 'damn feed that kid some decent food.' Your child is sick, needs a doctor. Why are you leaving your 2 year old for hours and hours on end so you can go to satsang? What? You're on food stamps and welfare and still send money to the Lard? Incrediable.

What really irks me is that the powers that be, M and his PAM's and his initiators/instructors must have had some idea of what was going on with some of these children and yet was anything said? Nope not a word!

Major drip, major drip, drip, drip was some inane festival, Miami, 1979, when some asshole initiator was commenting 'from his heart' in his satsang in front of 15,000 people about the pregnant women in the darshan line. These women disgusted him. They should dedicate their lives and how could they get into such a condition if indeed they were doing that (dedicating their lives) and don't you know premies, that you can never be a 24 hour devotee if you have a kid. Kids just get in the way. But a true devotee is what M is asking of us and it is such a small thing since M has given us soooooo much! I wish I could remember who said it but I remember it was some big wig like Ira Woods or Randy Proudy.

I really felt sorry for premie kids and that was way before I became a mother myself. From my vantage as the mother I've become, it makes me as sick as Abi and Susan's molestation.

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Date: Mon, Apr 23, 2001 at 11:49:20 (GMT)
From: magnolia
Email: None
To: Francesca
Subject: Baby Naming
Message:
There's a premie daughter in these parts - around 21 years old - named Daya.

Hmmm, wonder where that name came from?

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Date: Mon, Apr 23, 2001 at 09:37:20 (GMT)
From: PatC
Email: None
To: Francesca
Subject: I remember Satganga from Kissimee
Message:
Poor kid - now 23 years old and cringing at Goth-punk raves surrounded by people called Dweezil or Dragula.
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Date: Mon, Apr 23, 2001 at 08:32:54 (GMT)
From: janet
Email: None
To: Francesca
Subject: i midwifed a birth at guru puja, miami
Message:
while maharaji was onstage in mid day.
no lie
it was guru puja, i think 1980. One of my premie neighbors in the building, emily bouwsma, was pregnant and i had been trying to take care of her all year. she was a classic space case, took everything she heard regarding doing without all material attachments, to a frightening extreme. she had a 3 year old daughter named Corina with her as well. they lived in a bare room with a foam mat on the wooden floor, had one aluminum pot and one bent spoon in the kitchen, no shower curtain and half a rag and a bar of soap in the bathroom.
i had studied midwifing during my own pregnancy in 1978, hoping to deliver at home. so i knew what to watch for. I shadowed emily at the convention center all day, keeping a watchful eye on her. She wandered around upstairs with corina in tow, looking spaced and mildly pained, but softly evaded my inquiries as to her state. She went and lay down in the darkened meditation room for some time and i kept an eye on the door, and at some point she came out looking clearly strained and seemed to be making for the bathroom. i intercepted her and asked her to describe to me what she was feeling. she whispered that she thought she had to go take a shit. I asked if she was having labor pains and she looked distantly distracted and admitted that she might be. I asked whenher die date was and she allowed as to how it might be right around now. I glanced down and there was liquid trickling down her leg, and she grunted and gripped corinna and squeezed her eyes shut. i got emphatic and used all my persuasion to sway her to listen to me. I pointed out that it appeared to me that her water was breaking and running down her leg. I struggled to get her to understand that the sensation she thought was feeling of needing to take a shit was the baby's head pressing on her rectum as it entered the birth canal, and that if she insisted on going in the stall just then and sitting down to relieve herself, she ran a terrible chance of expelling the baby head first into icy cold water in the toilet! She seemed to hesitate and be confused and wan and torn by this concept, so i pressed further. I pleaded with her to let me escort her down to the first aid beds, and at least have someone trained, there, in case that was what was happening, and if she was still sure she only had to use the bathroom, she could use theirs down there. This broke her state of reluctance and I walked her to the escalators and took her down to the first aid curtained area.
Thank God.
Just As I escorted her in to the room with the full size double bed, Maharaji hit the stage-- and every premie in sight evacuated en masse, and ran into the hall to listen to him--with the esception of me, Emily, Corina and the midwife on the first aid watch.
suddenly the four of us were alone in pindrop silence and I gently steered emily over onto the bed, where she crawled on all fours and started groaning and grunting and straining, her face turned crimson with holding her breath to push. Thank god i had done the midwife reading I had.
The first aid midwife posted herself at the back end , ready, with little corina looking on with her excitedl,where the baby would be emerging, while i stationed myself to stay with emily, by her face, and be her birthing coach. I had to hold emily's reddened face in my hands amd endeavor to capture her attention,and rub her cheeks and remind her to breathe and not burst a blood vessel, straining with the pushes. No one had been there for me like that,during my birth, and i had made a vow, never to let another woman go thru that sense of abandonment that I was served when it happened to me. Each time she started to grunt and strain, I gave her my shoulder and chest, and heavily braced against her head and face, to give her something to aim at and drive against. When she wasn't gasping or straining, I had a moment to grab a cold wet washcloth from the near sink, and press it to her face to abate the fierce fever of exertion. The midwife, Corina and I helped her wrestle her few clothes off, in between the mighty groans and strains of pushing.
She stayed on all fours throughout. I dont think it was ten minutes from when we got there to when she made her final exertion, and I heard little Corina exclaiming ''s got little hands! and blue eyes like mommie!' and Emily gave me a tired, spent, wan smile and sank her head, dazed, onto my chest.

And out into the world came baby girl Sita, eyes huge and blue and astonished to see people for the first time. Corinna was all excited, chirping to the midwife, with wonder, at how her new baby sister looked just like mommie, with the same blonde hair and the same blue eyes and the same ethereal stare. sita didnt cry or split the air with the typical wail. She breathed, and sighed, and coughed, and looked around, and squirmed to see where mommie was.
after all--maharaji was giving satsang, and the world stopped in its tracks to listen, right?

it was a forunate thing that it happened that way. maharaji gave us the best thng we could have had--total silence, no interference, no distraction, no ignorant interlopers.

Corina kept stroking her sisters hands in welcome and marvel while emily gathered herself to turn around and sit up and take her new daughter to herself.

All in all, it happened exactly as its supposed to happen.
I can only hope and pray that if there are any pregnant mothers due to deliver, and they go into labor in Amaroo, that there will be women or men in the immediate vicinity who understand and know what to do.

It need not be a problem if the principals keep their wits about them.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Mon, Apr 23, 2001 at 08:29:55 (GMT)
From: janet
Email: None
To: Francesca
Subject: i midwifed a birth in the miami conv center
Message:
while maharaji was onstage in mid day.
no lie
it was guru puja, i think 1980. One of my premie neighbors in the building, emily bouwsma, was pregnant and i had been trying to take care of her all year. she was a classic space case, took everything she heard regarding doing without all material attachments, to a frightening extreme. she had a 3 year old daughter named Corina with her as well. they lived in a bare room with a foam mat on the wooden floor, had one aluminum pot and one bent spoon in the kitchen, no shower curtain and half a rag and a bar of soap in the bathroom.
i had studied midwifing during my own pregnancy in 1978, hoping to deliver at home. so i knew what to watch for. I shadowed emily at the convention center all day, keeping a watchful eye on her. She wandered around upstairs with corina in tow, looking spaced and mildly pained, but softly evaded my inquiries as to her state. She went and lay down in the darkened meditation room for some time and i kept an eye on the door, and at some point she came out looking clearly strained and seemed to be making for the bathroom. i intercepted her and asked her to describe to me what she was feeling. she whispered that she thought she had to go take a shit. I asked if she was having labor pains and she looked distantly distracted and admitted that she might be. I asked whenher die date was and she allowed as to how it might be right around now. I glanced down and there was liquid trickling down her leg, and she grunted and gripped corinna and squeezed her eyes shut. i got emphatic and used all my persuasion to sway her to listen to me. I pointed out that it appeared to me that her water was breaking and running down her leg. I struggled to get her to understand that the sensation she thought was feeling of needing to take a shit was the baby's head pressing on her rectum as it entered the birth canal, and that if she insisted on going in the stall just then and sitting down to relieve herself, she ran a terrible chance of expelling the baby head first into icy cold water in the toilet! She seemed to hesitate and be confused and wan and torn by this concept, so i pressed further. I pleaded with her to let me escort her down to the first aid beds, and at least have someone trained, there, in case that was what was happening, and if she was still sure she only had to use the bathroom, she could use theirs down there. This broke her state of reluctance and I walked her to the escalators and took her down to the first aid curtained area.
Thank God.
Just As I escorted her in to the room with the full size double bed, Maharaji hit the stage-- and every premie in sight evacuated en masse, and ran into the hall to listen to him--with the esception of me, Emily, Corina and the midwife on the first aid watch.
suddenly the four of us were alone in pindrop silence and I gently steered emily over onto the bed, where she crawled on all fours and started groaning and grunting and straining, her face turned crimson with holding her breath to push. Thank god i had done the midwife reading I had.
The first aid midwife posted herself at the back end , ready, with little corina looking on with her excitedl,where the baby would be emerging, while i stationed myself to stay with emily, by her face, and be her birthing coach. I had to hold emily's reddened face in my hands amd endeavor to capture her attention,and rub her cheeks and remind her to breathe and not burst a blood vessel, straining with the pushes. No one had been there for me like that,during my birth, and i had made a vow, never to let another woman go thru that sense of abandonment that I was served when it happened to me. Each time she started to grunt and strain, I gave her my shoulder and chest, and heavily braced against her head and face, to give her something to aim at and drive against. When she wasn't gasping or straining, I had a moment to grab a cold wet washcloth from the near sink, and press it to her face to abate the fierce fever of exertion. The midwife, Corina and I helped her wrestle her few clothes off, in between the mighty groans and strains of pushing.
She stayed on all fours throughout. I dont think it was ten minutes from when we got there to when she made her final exertion, and I heard little Corina exclaiming ''s got little hands! and blue eyes like mommie!' and Emily gave me a tired, spent, wan smile and sank her head, dazed, onto my chest.

And out into the world came baby girl Sita, eyes huge and blue and astonished to see people for the first time. Corinna was all excited, chirping to the midwife, with wonder, at how her new baby sister looked just like mommie, with the same blonde hair and the same blue eyes and the same ethereal stare. sita didnt cry or split the air with the typical wail. She breathed, and sighed, and coughed, and looked around, and squirmed to see where mommie was.
after all--maharaji was giving satsang, and the world stopped in its tracks to listen, right?

it was a forunate thing that it happened that way. maharaji gave us the best thng we could have had--total silence, no interference, no distraction, no ignorant interlopers.

Corina kept stroking her sisters hands in welcome and marvel while emily gathered herself to turn around and sit up and take her new daughter to herself.

All in all, it happened exactly as its supposed to happen.
I can only hope and pray that if there are any pregnant mothers due to deliver, and they go into labor in Amaroo, that there will be women or men in the immediate vicinity who understand and know what to do.

It need not be a problem if the principals keep their wits about them.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Mon, Apr 23, 2001 at 09:43:27 (GMT)
From: PatC
Email: None
To: janet
Subject: God bless little Sita now all of 21 years old
Message:
Thanks Janet for another wonderful story. I hope you're keeping this stuff.
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Mon, Apr 23, 2001 at 03:21:11 (GMT)
From: G
Email: None
To: jondon
Subject: I doubt it.
Message:
When I was at Amaroo, I saw someone in a wheelchair have a very hard time. There were long distances to cross over fairly rough ground. They were able to get around but it was difficult.

I wonder what laws Australia has regarding disabled people.

Do the Pee-ons not have access to toilets and showers?

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Date: Thurs, Apr 26, 2001 at 03:30:10 (GMT)
From: Peter Howie
Email: None
To: G
Subject: I doubt it.
Message:
Hi there.

The laws here are reasonably advanced for this sort of thing. Someone who was interested could create quite a stink if the law hadn't been followed. But would any guru-fearing-devotee dare to do such a thing.

Others who could also complain are mostly out fighting more important fights - such as getting governments to acknowledge their responsibilities etc.

Access is one of the big concerns for people with disabilities. My fantasy is that MJ wold be more inclined to make jokes about the problems than do anything about them.

Cheers

peter

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Date: Mon, Apr 23, 2001 at 13:55:43 (GMT)
From: Mercedes
Email: None
To: G
Subject: toilets and showers
Message:
there are toilets and showers they are not the fancy ones with marble and whotever else they have, they are like trailers with a bunch of shower and toilet stalls.
The class divission is very clear there but of course no one is really thinking about that.

You know that in Portland, a friend of mine told me, that m said that people that didn't go to Amaroo would get the satellite' condensed version but they'd miss all the fun. I told my friend that that was mean and that it was wrong to encourage people to go into debt to get the 'fun' of it. Anyway I felt it was total manipulation on his part.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Mon, Apr 23, 2001 at 08:15:25 (GMT)
From: salam
Email: None
To: G
Subject: There are no obligation to provide facilities
Message:
for the disabled. EV is a private enterprise and as such they only do it on voluntery bases. Not sure about the goverment bodies, but most of these have them.

As far as get pushed in a wheel chair, well what can I say. If between 4000 dick heads no one has the sympathy to open their eyes and realise that someone needs help going up a hill with a wheel chair, then they can all get fucked.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Mon, Apr 23, 2001 at 09:33:59 (GMT)
From: PatC
Email: None
To: salam
Subject: That's barbaric, Salam
Message:
In California, if you spend more than $79,000 on construction of a public facility, you are obligated to provide handicapped access and amenities. I know that from personal experience.

I thought Oz was the last bastion of unionist egalitarianism.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Mon, Apr 23, 2001 at 16:22:21 (GMT)
From: Francesca
Email: None
To: PatC
Subject: Pat, if you read my post above
Message:
In the disclaimer portion of the Amaroo application packet, they have clear language saying they don't have to do squat for the handicapped, and that they are under the laws in Queensland.

In fact, if you look, the word handicapped never appears in the application, and they only speak of 'access' issues. They have you rate your problem, tell them what you need, and then have a disclaimer that says basically - if we don't do anything for you, tough noogies.

It is barbaric. But what does it take for people to get a clue? Took a lot for me; hope it doesn't take as much for them.

--f

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Date: Mon, Apr 23, 2001 at 18:03:37 (GMT)
From: salam
Email: None
To: Francesca
Subject: Am only stating a fact
Message:
wether it is barbaric or not.

Oz is Oz and California is California. Anyone with his right mind should not go bush in a wheel chair.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Mon, Apr 23, 2001 at 19:21:37 (GMT)
From: Francesca
Email: None
To: salam
Subject: Makes sense to me, salam
Message:
No argument there. US law is way different from Oz law, I'm sure. In the US, if he'd built a conference center in our equivalent of the bush, the conference center itself would have to be accessible. He wants US dollars, but not US laws.
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Mon, Apr 23, 2001 at 19:57:57 (GMT)
From: PatC
Email: None
To: Francesca
Subject: Exactly! He wants US dollars, but not US laws. NT
Message:
j
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Date: Mon, Apr 23, 2001 at 02:13:13 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: Help, I'm in Anagram Land!
Message:
Prempal Singh Rawat

ashram wang tippler
gimp plantar washer
mantraps pig whaler

Lord of the Universe

fervid louse throne
finest ho overruled
fondle her vitreous
fondle his overture
founder holier vest
one threefold virus
overfeed ruin sloth
on outlived refresh
devil fester honour

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Wed, Apr 25, 2001 at 00:43:09 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: *** SOME GREAT PAMAGRAMS!! ***
Message:
'Person Around Maharaji' (PAM) yields the following rich anagrams:

Hard Marijuana Snooper

Morn Sue Paranoid Rajah

Ho User Primadonna Raja

Armoured Joan Piranhas

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Date: Mon, Apr 23, 2001 at 06:11:09 (GMT)
From: a0aji
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Help, I'm in Anagram Land!
Message:
juju hair grama! (guru maharaj ji)
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Date: Mon, Apr 23, 2001 at 02:22:45 (GMT)
From: PatC
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Ashram wang tippler fondles his overture?!
Message:
Or is that, ''Overture: Ashram tippler fondles his wang?''

You'd be good at Merle Reagle's crosswords.

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Date: Mon, Apr 23, 2001 at 04:05:45 (GMT)
From: janet
Email: None
To: PatC
Subject: how many words can you find in.....
Message:
i like this game! let's all play
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Date: Mon, Apr 23, 2001 at 19:18:03 (GMT)
From: cq
Email: None
To: janet
Subject: how many words can you find in.....
Message:

Take the phrase 'The best things in life are free' - anagramaticize it, and, hey presto, you get the anagram 'Nail-biting refreshes the feet'

Be that as it may, there are some poor souls whose names lend themselves to somewhat less attractive anagrams. For instance:

'Ronald Wilson Reagan' = 'A long-insane Warlord'
'Camilla Parker Bowles' = 'I'm Palace balls-worker'
'Mister Newton Gingrich' = 'Nice right-wing monster'
'President Boris Yeltsin' = 'Endless insobriety trip'; 'one isn't terribly pissed'; or even 'Rent-boy stirs idle penis.'
'The Artist Formerly Known as Prince' = 'Foreskin-chewer rants importantly'

Finally, spare a thought for poor old Virginia Bottomley, (formerly in Margaret Thatcher's cabinet) = 'I'm an evil Tory bigot'
or 'Virginia Bottomley, Heritage Secretary' which comes out as: 'I am the icily overbearing greatest Tory'; 'Ahoy! steamily energetic vibrator tiger' or even 'I am a cheesy toiletry vibrator greeting'

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Date: Mon, Apr 23, 2001 at 20:00:37 (GMT)
From: PatC
Email: None
To: cq
Subject: LOL: 'Rent-boy stirs idle penis.'
Message:
Did you make those up, cq? I love your sense of humor.
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Tues, Apr 24, 2001 at 19:53:08 (GMT)
From: cq
Email: None
To: PatC
Subject: there's more ...
Message:
I'm not bright (or patient) enough to think up things like that, Pat, though I believe there are one or two computerised anagram-generators on the market that make things a bit easier.

There's plenty of sites out there with some remarkable examples, such as

That's one small step for a man, one giant leap for mankind - Neil A. Armstrong

becomes

A thin man ran; makes a large stride; left planet, pins flag on moon! On to Mars!

**********

and


To be or not to be: that is the question; whether 'tis nobler in the mind to suffer the slings and arrows of outrageous fortune

becomes:

In one of the Bard's best-thought-of tragedies, our insistent hero, Hamlet, queries on two fronts about how life turns rotten

**********

Can you believe it?

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Date: Tues, Apr 24, 2001 at 22:36:15 (GMT)
From: PatC
Email: None
To: cq
Subject: there's more ... anagram generator
Message:

Find out what your name means.

Patrick Conlon On-line

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Date: Mon, Apr 23, 2001 at 08:37:43 (GMT)
From: PatC
Email: None
To: janet
Subject: Janet likes this game!
Message:
So where's your contribution?
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Mon, Apr 23, 2001 at 08:41:56 (GMT)
From: janet
Email: None
To: PatC
Subject: Janet likes this game!
Message:
I'm gonna get out my scrabble set and do it right brained.
I once did this with a friend , using the name of Jim Morrison, and got 257 words out of it. anagrams are fun and how many words is even more revealing.
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Mon, Apr 23, 2001 at 08:51:36 (GMT)
From: PatC
Email: None
To: janet
Subject: We'll play it at SF ''Pigeon Fanciers' Night''
Message:
You better be there, lass.
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sun, Apr 22, 2001 at 17:17:23 (GMT)
From: Hitoshi
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: Happy to see you with not guru - ho boy no help?
Message:
Many tiems I am thinking about with Maharji in Japan.
Now I can view this and remember the visting again.
Please visit me at

http://www.geocities.com/Tokyo/Villa/9930/

Excuse english

Hitoshi

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Date: Mon, Apr 23, 2001 at 10:21:51 (GMT)
From: AJW
Email: None
To: Hitoshi
Subject: Cliff Richards
Message:
Hitoshi,

Saying you are a big Cliff Richards fan will not get you laid.

The only people who like Cliff Richards are Christian women, over the age of 55, who show up at his concerts with their knitting, wearing anoraks. They are either virgins or married to Estate Agents with grown up children.

If you want to develop and deep and meaningful relationship with a Western girl, I suggest you start listening to some different music.

Try the Trashcan Sinatras, Abdullah Ibrahim or Tom Waits.

Anth, the arbiter of good taste.

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Date: Mon, Apr 23, 2001 at 08:28:21 (GMT)
From: salam
Email: None
To: Hitoshi
Subject: I liek mielki twoi mateie.
Message:
boofheadi
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Mon, Apr 23, 2001 at 03:22:14 (GMT)
From: TD
Email: None
To: Hitoshi
Subject: Reminds me of that Turkish 'kiss kiss' guy (nt)
Message:
nt
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Date: Mon, Apr 23, 2001 at 00:29:46 (GMT)
From: Sir Dave
Email: None
To: Hitoshi
Subject: I'll guard your milk products (nt)
Message:
zzz
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Date: Mon, Apr 23, 2001 at 00:39:40 (GMT)
From: Sir Dave
Email: None
To: Hi tosh
Subject: PS
Message:
You might have seen that brilliant website, Eric conveys an emotion but I think the time is now right for Hitoshi conveys an emotional milk product or some such idea.

Fery funny site mate, whoever you are and I can guess.

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Date: Mon, Apr 23, 2001 at 00:57:18 (GMT)
From: Sir Dave
Email: None
To: Sir Dave
Subject: PPS
Message:
Now it's linked to from

Anything Goes Links

in the Funny stuff section.

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Date: Sun, Apr 22, 2001 at 17:28:53 (GMT)
From: Steve Quint
Email: the_avenger55@hotmail.com
To: Hitoshi
Subject: Hajimemashite
Message:
Steve Quint to moshimasu. Yoroshiku onegai shimasu.

1973 kara 1975 made Tokyo de sunde imashita. Ima Canada no Vancouver de sunde imasu.

AcDc suki desu ka? Kyo, hajimete AcDc no concerto ni ikimasu. Sugoku tanoshimasu.

Email dozo.

Ogenki de.

Steve

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Date: Sun, Apr 22, 2001 at 21:34:57 (GMT)
From: bagoshite
Email: None
To: Steve Quint
Subject: Hajimemashite
Message:
you what?????
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Date: Sun, Apr 22, 2001 at 21:38:05 (GMT)
From: Steve Quint
Email: the_avenger55@hotmail.com`
To: bagoshite
Subject: How Do You Do
Message:
My name is Steve Quint. Pleased to meet you.

I lived in Tokyo from 1973 to 1975. Right now I live in Vancouver, Canada.

Do you like AC/DC? I'm going to see them for the first time today. I'm very excited.

Please feel free to email me.

Be well.

Steve

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Date: Mon, Apr 23, 2001 at 04:36:11 (GMT)
From: janet
Email: None
To: Steve Quint
Subject: wanna be our japanese liason to the japanese ex's?
Message:
if Pat Conlon is gonna try to reach the indian ex's, how bout you be our japanese outreach person? It shouldnt be all that hard to translate the really damning parts of this site into japanese and get the right metatags into the webpage top. If you can't do webpage design, you can do the translation and one of us can ccp your text into the website for you.

there were a lot of japanese premies.

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Date: Sun, Apr 22, 2001 at 23:56:09 (GMT)
From: DV
Email: None
To: Steve Quint
Subject: Reminds me of a friend who put Ichichu Sosumi on
Message:
his phone account. They didn't catch it, either.
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Date: Mon, Apr 23, 2001 at 04:37:37 (GMT)
From: janet
Email: None
To: DV
Subject: took me a while to get it:
Message:
for the dense:

'I cheat you. So sue me'

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