Forum V: Archive
Compiled: Wed, May 02, 2001 at 22:46:04 (GMT)
From: Apr 21, 2001 To: Apr 30, 2001 Page: 3 Of: 5


Jim -:- Australian Bad Poetry Contest Begins! -:- Tues, Apr 24, 2001 at 15:50:59 (GMT)
__ janet -:- and no pants on?..................nt -:- Wed, Apr 25, 2001 at 08:15:49 (GMT)
__ Larkin -:- My entry (assuming rhyme is dead, man..) -:- Wed, Apr 25, 2001 at 02:32:59 (GMT)
__ __ Larkin -:- My other entry... -:- Wed, Apr 25, 2001 at 02:42:03 (GMT)
__ __ __ Francesca -:- THESE ARE MUST READS, FOLKS! -:- Wed, Apr 25, 2001 at 05:25:00 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Jim -:- All of Larkin's stuff is great (nt) -:- Wed, Apr 25, 2001 at 17:58:43 (GMT)
__ __ __ Larkin -:- And my rear entry... -:- Wed, Apr 25, 2001 at 03:11:05 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ PatC -:- Music to my ear: the whole damn cult's a fiddle NT -:- Wed, Apr 25, 2001 at 08:00:15 (GMT)
__ Francesca -:- Is this for real! -:- Tues, Apr 24, 2001 at 17:48:42 (GMT)
__ __ Jim -:- Uh, partially -:- Tues, Apr 24, 2001 at 17:55:48 (GMT)
__ __ __ Francesca -:- Well the part I'm lampooning -:- Tues, Apr 24, 2001 at 18:40:20 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Kelly -:- Well the part I'm lampooning -:- Tues, Apr 24, 2001 at 20:45:20 (GMT)
__ Steve Quint -:- Hopefully OT -:- Tues, Apr 24, 2001 at 17:02:32 (GMT)
__ __ Zelda -:- Rawwatt! Hurry to Steves link above!Please NT -:- Tues, Apr 24, 2001 at 19:33:19 (GMT)

Jean-Michel -:- This is a scoop: magazine just published on EV -:- Tues, Apr 24, 2001 at 15:48:08 (GMT)
__ Nigel -:- This is a scoop: magazine just published on EV -:- Wed, Apr 25, 2001 at 14:56:08 (GMT)
__ suchabonhomme -:- Allons enfants de la vie libre, c'est la joie... -:- Wed, Apr 25, 2001 at 07:10:07 (GMT)
__ Katie H -:- Congratulations, J-M! -:- Wed, Apr 25, 2001 at 00:53:58 (GMT)
__ Tim G -:- This is a scoop: magazine just published on EV -:- Wed, Apr 25, 2001 at 00:22:35 (GMT)
__ __ cq -:- er, you mean a blow for ... er, not freedom?(nt) -:- Wed, Apr 25, 2001 at 18:19:13 (GMT)
__ Francesca -:- Loved the cover, can't read French -:- Wed, Apr 25, 2001 at 00:01:25 (GMT)
__ Elan Vital -:- We are appalled -:- Tues, Apr 24, 2001 at 23:50:19 (GMT)
__ Kelly -:- This is a scoop: magazine just published on EV -:- Tues, Apr 24, 2001 at 19:42:04 (GMT)
__ Jim -:- Here's Alta Vista's English version of your page -:- Tues, Apr 24, 2001 at 17:13:25 (GMT)
__ __ AJW -:- Bravo Jean-Michel -:- Wed, Apr 25, 2001 at 10:26:49 (GMT)
__ __ cq -:- alternative translation (nearly as odd as AV's) -:- Tues, Apr 24, 2001 at 18:05:34 (GMT)
__ __ __ cq -:- with working link -:- Tues, Apr 24, 2001 at 18:11:21 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Jean-Michel -:- calling all translators -:- Wed, Apr 25, 2001 at 08:05:36 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ cq -:- sussed that, J-M. Good work. Waiting patiently(nt) -:- Wed, Apr 25, 2001 at 18:24:29 (GMT)
__ __ Jim -:- This is hilarious! -:- Tues, Apr 24, 2001 at 17:21:13 (GMT)
__ __ Jim -:- My favorite part -:- Tues, Apr 24, 2001 at 17:16:37 (GMT)
__ Way -:- Bravo! -:- Tues, Apr 24, 2001 at 16:54:22 (GMT)
__ __ Jean-Michel -:- Quick before premies buy them all (nt) !! -:- Tues, Apr 24, 2001 at 16:57:29 (GMT)
__ Jim -:- Hate to ask but ........... -:- Tues, Apr 24, 2001 at 15:54:25 (GMT)
__ __ Jean-Michel -:- Here's a quick summary ... -:- Tues, Apr 24, 2001 at 16:32:50 (GMT)
__ __ __ bill -:- Chef JM, You have cooked his goose beautifully..nt -:- Thurs, Apr 26, 2001 at 07:57:45 (GMT)
__ __ __ Ulf -:- Very very very , Good, thanks,!!!!! nt. -:- Tues, Apr 24, 2001 at 18:09:01 (GMT)
__ __ __ Jean-Michel -:- Forgot to mention the many pictures of m -:- Tues, Apr 24, 2001 at 17:14:11 (GMT)
__ __ __ Joe -:- Wow -:- Tues, Apr 24, 2001 at 16:35:20 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Jean-Michel -:- Before you translate -:- Tues, Apr 24, 2001 at 16:54:03 (GMT)
__ __ Jean-Michel -:- This is no secret ! -:- Tues, Apr 24, 2001 at 16:10:52 (GMT)
__ __ __ janet -:- i can do it with french collaboration -:- Wed, Apr 25, 2001 at 09:14:38 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Katie H -:- Janet, this is great! -:- Wed, Apr 25, 2001 at 14:08:12 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Jean-Michel -:- I can help ! -:- Wed, Apr 25, 2001 at 09:30:34 (GMT)
__ __ __ Jerry -:- It is to me! -:- Tues, Apr 24, 2001 at 16:20:38 (GMT)
__ __ __ Marianne -:- Can you give us some highlights? -:- Tues, Apr 24, 2001 at 16:19:51 (GMT)
__ __ Kaj -:- Great! -:- Tues, Apr 24, 2001 at 15:57:53 (GMT)
__ __ __ Jean-Michel -:- I think I'm going to retire now ... -:- Tues, Apr 24, 2001 at 17:03:22 (GMT)

Mr. Mind -:- Adult Children of Alcoholics -:- Tues, Apr 24, 2001 at 10:55:20 (GMT)
__ DeProGram Anand Ji -:- Adult Children of Alcoholics -:- Wed, Apr 25, 2001 at 06:28:48 (GMT)
__ Katie H -:- Adult Children of Alcoholics -:- Tues, Apr 24, 2001 at 14:08:23 (GMT)
__ __ Joe -:- Adult Children of Alcoholics -:- Tues, Apr 24, 2001 at 16:17:37 (GMT)
__ __ __ Katie H -:- Adult Children of Alcoholics -:- Wed, Apr 25, 2001 at 00:26:26 (GMT)
__ Scott T. -:- Adult Children of Alcoholics -:- Tues, Apr 24, 2001 at 13:46:00 (GMT)
__ __ a0aji -:- Adult Children of Alcoholics -:- Tues, Apr 24, 2001 at 23:33:47 (GMT)
__ __ Mr. Mind -:- Scott and Katie/you are my mother and you are... -:- Tues, Apr 24, 2001 at 14:27:43 (GMT)
__ __ __ Katie H -:- Personality factors -:- Wed, Apr 25, 2001 at 00:33:05 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Scott T. -:- Personality factors -:- Wed, Apr 25, 2001 at 05:22:02 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Katie H -:- Personality factors -:- Wed, Apr 25, 2001 at 13:09:38 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Scott T. -:- Personality factors -:- Wed, Apr 25, 2001 at 13:53:36 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Katie H -:- Personality factors -:- Wed, Apr 25, 2001 at 14:12:27 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Scott T. -:- Personality factors -:- Wed, Apr 25, 2001 at 14:50:12 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ bob -:- Personality factors -:- Wed, Apr 25, 2001 at 16:44:57 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ PatC -:- bob, Rawat drowns his shame with booze -:- Thurs, Apr 26, 2001 at 01:54:35 (GMT)
__ __ __ anonymous parody-maker -:- parody of Arti (OT) -:- Tues, Apr 24, 2001 at 23:23:48 (GMT)
__ __ __ bob -:- adult exguruholics... -:- Tues, Apr 24, 2001 at 19:26:17 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ PatC -:- Great post, bob -:- Tues, Apr 24, 2001 at 19:35:30 (GMT)

Francesca -:- I'm fakking sick of being grateful -:- Tues, Apr 24, 2001 at 05:29:09 (GMT)
__ Joe -:- I'm fakking sick of being grateful -:- Tues, Apr 24, 2001 at 16:27:19 (GMT)
__ __ Francesca -:- Suzanne's posts about Amarscrew were great n/t -:- Tues, Apr 24, 2001 at 18:35:18 (GMT)
__ Sir Dave -:- I'm fakking sick of being grateful -:- Tues, Apr 24, 2001 at 12:43:26 (GMT)
__ __ Gregg -:- my daughter and the Ten Commandments -:- Tues, Apr 24, 2001 at 14:47:46 (GMT)
__ __ __ Francesca -:- Bossy GOD, I love it - thanx! n/t -:- Tues, Apr 24, 2001 at 15:51:43 (GMT)
__ __ salam -:- Am bloody greatful for being sick -:- Tues, Apr 24, 2001 at 14:34:24 (GMT)
__ __ __ Sandy -:- You are one funny dude or dudette... -:- Wed, Apr 25, 2001 at 04:27:48 (GMT)
__ __ __ Prof Heinz Baked-Beans -:- Rawat will turn to ice -:- Tues, Apr 24, 2001 at 15:38:56 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ salam -:- That's a crappy idea -:- Wed, Apr 25, 2001 at 10:27:59 (GMT)
__ __ Scott T. -:- Things that cause me to be full of grate: -:- Tues, Apr 24, 2001 at 13:21:31 (GMT)
__ JHB -:- Sandy - PLEASE READ! -:- Tues, Apr 24, 2001 at 09:43:28 (GMT)
__ __ Sandy -:- JHB - PLEASE READ! -:- Wed, Apr 25, 2001 at 14:14:07 (GMT)
__ __ __ PatC -:- Yes I judged you as been preachy -:- Wed, Apr 25, 2001 at 17:24:07 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Sandy -:- This world and my life are miracles to me too -:- Wed, Apr 25, 2001 at 17:53:23 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ PatC -:- Since I first started reading your posts, Sandy -:- Wed, Apr 25, 2001 at 18:31:05 (GMT)
__ __ Sandy -:- Grateful = Great-full -:- Wed, Apr 25, 2001 at 01:03:21 (GMT)
__ __ __ Sandy -:- And furthermore -:- Wed, Apr 25, 2001 at 02:31:10 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Katie H -:- 'grateful to' versus 'grateful for' -:- Wed, Apr 25, 2001 at 12:56:09 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Scott T. -:- steeped in ignorance -:- Wed, Apr 25, 2001 at 14:23:10 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Sandy -:- being grateful right here right now for no special -:- Wed, Apr 25, 2001 at 14:32:32 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Scott T. -:- being grateful right here right now for no special -:- Wed, Apr 25, 2001 at 15:58:01 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Sandy -:- the existence of the 'central clearing house' -:- Wed, Apr 25, 2001 at 16:18:26 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Scott T. -:- the existence of the 'central clearing house' -:- Wed, Apr 25, 2001 at 22:26:40 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ PatC -:- You couldn't resist that sanctimonious PS to your -:- Wed, Apr 25, 2001 at 08:20:23 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Sandy -:- Your sitting in judgement of me is what is -:- Wed, Apr 25, 2001 at 13:04:33 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Sandy -:- PS -:- Wed, Apr 25, 2001 at 02:58:16 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Francesca -:- Being conscious and awake... -:- Wed, Apr 25, 2001 at 06:19:32 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Sandy -:- I just saw REAL gratitude for life on CNN... -:- Wed, Apr 25, 2001 at 17:41:01 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Francesca -:- Definitely, cool story and good example -:- Wed, Apr 25, 2001 at 20:14:21 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Hal -:- Gratitude Sucks ! -:- Wed, Apr 25, 2001 at 18:33:50 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Sandy -:- Gratitude Sucks ! -:- Wed, Apr 25, 2001 at 19:37:33 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ hal -:- Gratitude Sucks ! -:- Thurs, Apr 26, 2001 at 06:49:35 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Sandy -:- Gratitude opens positive energy channels -:- Thurs, Apr 26, 2001 at 13:50:29 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Hal -:- Gratitude opens positive energy channels -:- Thurs, Apr 26, 2001 at 19:17:23 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Sandy -:- Gratitude opens positive energy channels -:- Thurs, Apr 26, 2001 at 20:35:07 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Jim -:- Why don't you 'cop to' evolution? -:- Thurs, Apr 26, 2001 at 22:09:12 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Sandy -:- I can't believe you said such a stupid thing -:- Thurs, Apr 26, 2001 at 23:47:12 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Hal -:- I know where you're coming from Sandy -:- Wed, Apr 25, 2001 at 21:32:14 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ PatC -:- I know where you're coming from Hal -:- Thurs, Apr 26, 2001 at 01:46:14 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Hal -:- Pat - I love your posts too-thank you nt -:- Thurs, Apr 26, 2001 at 06:45:27 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Francesca -:- Great post Hal -- some good stuff there n/t -:- Wed, Apr 25, 2001 at 23:13:14 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Hal -:- thanks - you started a good thread Francesca nt -:- Thurs, Apr 26, 2001 at 06:43:34 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Sandy -:- Being conscious and awake... -:- Wed, Apr 25, 2001 at 12:59:16 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Francesca -:- This is an ex-premie forum -:- Wed, Apr 25, 2001 at 15:59:49 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Sandy -:- This is an ex-premie forum and premies are invited -:- Wed, Apr 25, 2001 at 16:32:11 (GMT)
__ PatC -:- Back to your punk roots babe? -:- Tues, Apr 24, 2001 at 06:59:30 (GMT)
__ Scott T. -:- I'm fakking sick of being grapeful -:- Tues, Apr 24, 2001 at 06:07:57 (GMT)

Jim -:- OK, so you're stuck on a desert island ....... -:- Tues, Apr 24, 2001 at 02:15:48 (GMT)
__ JHB -:- Ivette - she like nature -:- Tues, Apr 24, 2001 at 09:28:09 (GMT)
__ AJW -:- Depends on the fauna Jim... -:- Tues, Apr 24, 2001 at 09:21:15 (GMT)
__ __ PatC -:- You mean flora, Anth. I'll take the fauna -:- Tues, Apr 24, 2001 at 19:42:17 (GMT)
__ __ __ AJW -:- Pat you're biased. -:- Wed, Apr 25, 2001 at 10:37:26 (GMT)
__ __ GTP -:- reminds me of a joke: -:- Tues, Apr 24, 2001 at 19:07:30 (GMT)
__ __ Jim -:- I dunno, that there Janet's looking pretty darned -:- Tues, Apr 24, 2001 at 15:26:17 (GMT)
__ __ __ janet -:- WATCH IT, BUDDY! I BITE AND SCRATCH. AND HISS. -:- Thurs, Apr 26, 2001 at 08:23:18 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Jim -:- I bet (nt) -:- Thurs, Apr 26, 2001 at 20:23:16 (GMT)
__ __ __ Jim -:- Oops, I meant 'JanICE' -- sheesh! (nt) -:- Tues, Apr 24, 2001 at 15:29:24 (GMT)
__ Nigel -:- I'll take Ivette - style a tad more economical.. -:- Tues, Apr 24, 2001 at 07:47:31 (GMT)
__ TD -:- Why not have all three? Maharaji could! (nt) -:- Tues, Apr 24, 2001 at 02:25:23 (GMT)

Helen -:- How to Gain Mystical Followers -:- Tues, Apr 24, 2001 at 02:06:23 (GMT)
__ Scott T. -:- How to Gain Mystical Followers -:- Tues, Apr 24, 2001 at 14:09:35 (GMT)
__ Bryn -:- What a Menu! Have fallen for and used many! -:- Tues, Apr 24, 2001 at 12:23:25 (GMT)
__ Nigel -:- Thanks, Helen - I think his analysis... -:- Tues, Apr 24, 2001 at 10:04:02 (GMT)
__ __ Scott T. -:- Thanks, Helen - I think his analysis... -:- Tues, Apr 24, 2001 at 14:16:58 (GMT)
__ __ __ Helen -:- playing survivor -:- Tues, Apr 24, 2001 at 20:58:57 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Scott T. -:- playing survivor -:- Wed, Apr 25, 2001 at 04:42:51 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Nigel -:- Good post, but why 'patriotism'? -:- Wed, Apr 25, 2001 at 14:05:28 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Scott T. -:- Good post, but why 'patriotism'? -:- Wed, Apr 25, 2001 at 16:17:02 (GMT)
__ Loaf -:- Thanks Hel ... It rings bells :0) (nt) -:- Tues, Apr 24, 2001 at 06:25:48 (GMT)
__ PatC -:- That's good, Helen. Thanks for posting it. NT -:- Tues, Apr 24, 2001 at 02:28:03 (GMT)

jondon -:- Salam...How's the weather... -:- Tues, Apr 24, 2001 at 00:11:04 (GMT)
__ salam -:- Hurricans are predicted for next week -:- Tues, Apr 24, 2001 at 14:00:30 (GMT)
__ janet -:- same as i have here at home in venice. ahhhh -:- Tues, Apr 24, 2001 at 10:03:58 (GMT)

Gerry -:- Is it OK to cuss here? -:- Mon, Apr 23, 2001 at 21:55:11 (GMT)
__ salam -:- I don't know what cuss is -:- Thurs, Apr 26, 2001 at 08:40:28 (GMT)
__ Katie H -:- Well, sheesh! -:- Tues, Apr 24, 2001 at 01:13:17 (GMT)
__ Mickey the Pharisee -:- Cuss all you want! -:- Mon, Apr 23, 2001 at 22:04:12 (GMT)
__ Tony -:- I don't fucking well see why fucking well not.NT -:- Mon, Apr 23, 2001 at 21:59:16 (GMT)
__ PatC -:- Is it OK to cuss here? Yes! Is Patty all right? -:- Mon, Apr 23, 2001 at 21:58:28 (GMT)
__ __ Gerry -:- Is Patty all right? Yes -:- Mon, Apr 23, 2001 at 22:18:28 (GMT)
__ __ __ bill -:- Hi Gerry, hope she does well....nt -:- Thurs, Apr 26, 2001 at 08:17:20 (GMT)
__ __ __ Scott T. -:- Oops, two-legged. -:- Tues, Apr 24, 2001 at 16:15:59 (GMT)
__ __ __ Scott T. -:- Two wheeled advocacy. -:- Tues, Apr 24, 2001 at 15:49:28 (GMT)
__ __ __ PatC -:- My wishes for Patty's full recovery of her health -:- Tues, Apr 24, 2001 at 00:46:53 (GMT)
__ __ __ Francesca -:- Is Patty all right? Yes -:- Mon, Apr 23, 2001 at 22:37:47 (GMT)

EV -:- Help Wanted -:- Mon, Apr 23, 2001 at 20:56:29 (GMT)
__ PatC -:- I nominate Rev Schmitz as the next Perfect Master -:- Tues, Apr 24, 2001 at 02:21:48 (GMT)
__ __ Rev Schmitz -:- No,no Pat. Me and you together. With your... -:- Wed, Apr 25, 2001 at 16:16:45 (GMT)
__ __ __ PatC -:- Thanks for offer, Rev but I don't like gurujism NT -:- Wed, Apr 25, 2001 at 17:09:47 (GMT)
__ __ janet -:- I nominate Bill Gates as the next Perfect Master -:- Tues, Apr 24, 2001 at 10:10:08 (GMT)
__ __ __ such -:- how 'bout Robin Williams! [nt -:- Thurs, Apr 26, 2001 at 06:55:34 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ PatC -:- Robin Williams? And Dreams May Come or -:- Thurs, Apr 26, 2001 at 07:51:12 (GMT)


Date: Tues, Apr 24, 2001 at 15:50:59 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: Australian Bad Poetry Contest Begins!
Message:
After months and months of anticipated appreciation, the annual Australian Bad Poetry Contest began with a flourish at 'Amaroo', a strange campground near Brisbaine in the middle of nowhere. As the winner of last year's contest, Prem Pal Singh Rawat, an Indian-born real estate agent from Malibu, California, took the stage, the crowd settled in for the kind of 'inimitable uniqueness' (a favorite line from Rawat's crowd pleaser last year, 'Into Within Inside Lies a Love that's Waiting to Wait No Longer') Rawat's famous for. Ever the master of the sugar-soaked cliche, Rawat wasn't to disappoint this year as everyone, regardless of race, creed, sect or religion, began to feel --

An incredible resonance

It was a beautiful day that turned into a perfect evening. The 4000 people that made it to Amaroo wended their way up the long hill to the amphitheatre as the heat of the hot Aussie sun weakened in the late afternoon. By 4.30 pm, everyone was seated. The air was clear, the sky blue, birds sang, as a carpet of silence slowly spread its way across the audience. With just five minutes to go before the event started, the quiet was total: it was a silence of expectation, of longing and appreciation.

MC Derek Harper, in high spirits, welcomed everyone to Australia. And then Maharaji came on stage to rapturous applause. Dressed in a shirt and tie and a black silk bomber jacket he talked for nearly an hour and a quarter. It was an unforgettable speech, wide-ranging and inspiring.

He talked lyrically about life and breath: 'Don't take a breath and lose the feeling. You don't have to. It is a miracle. It is the miracle of all miracles.'

He explained that it is not possible to know what either simplicity or divinity really are until you experience the breath really touch you. It touches us, he said, like a hand playing a harp within us and then 'an incredible resonance resonates through our whole being.'

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Date: Wed, Apr 25, 2001 at 08:15:49 (GMT)
From: janet
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: and no pants on?..................nt
Message:
well, its his land, i guess he can go around on it without pants if the mood takes him.
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Date: Wed, Apr 25, 2001 at 02:32:59 (GMT)
From: Larkin
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: My entry (assuming rhyme is dead, man..)
Message:
Platitude

A commonplace remark delivered
with gravitas
by the spiritually superior
or morally bankrupt
in lieu of meaningful communication
or emotional engagement.
The cheapening of language, each banal turn of phrase
A load of old trite.
Fragmented, airy concepts turn in on themselves
looking for ever-more-subtle layers
of emptiness and vapidity.
But a platitude to its mother is a fine-looking baby.

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Date: Wed, Apr 25, 2001 at 02:42:03 (GMT)
From: Larkin
Email: None
To: Larkin
Subject: My other entry...
Message:
my lord is like a red, red wine
so rich, and often drunk
as cuddly as a porcupine
as fragrant as a skunk
as distant as the milky way
much better viewed from far away
and as for those wise words you say
i've never heard such bunk.

my lord is like a panto queen
so cute in krishna crown
who waves a flute he cannot toot
and capers like a clown
but when he wiggles, heaven's above,
our souls cry out: we're all yours, guv,
just take us in the name of love!
you've won this round, hands down.

my lord is like a spoiled brat
who never once knew hardship
who's charity's an enterprise
and I don't mean the starship
whose dupes that follow in his way
will all sign up to work all day
receive no thanks, nor even pay
to serve his perfect lardship

my lord is like a violin
but wider round the middle
whose same old tune's a vile din
the whole damn cult's a fiddle
if shit were brains, with your IQ
you'd never need to use the loo
the one gold-plated just for you
except, perhaps, to widdle.

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Date: Wed, Apr 25, 2001 at 05:25:00 (GMT)
From: Francesca
Email: notinherent@yahoo.com
To: Larkin
Subject: THESE ARE MUST READS, FOLKS!
Message:
Great job again Larkin! His lardship is the porcine porcupine divine! As we scream, will you dunce, dunce, dunce!

And he does. Be still, my heart!

--f

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Date: Wed, Apr 25, 2001 at 17:58:43 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Francesca
Subject: All of Larkin's stuff is great (nt)
Message:
dddddd
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Date: Wed, Apr 25, 2001 at 03:11:05 (GMT)
From: Larkin
Email: None
To: Larkin
Subject: And my rear entry...
Message:
If you can lose your mind when all about you
Are losing theirs in search of what is true
If you can trust Prem Pal when all men doubt you
Cast scorn upon their foolish doubting too,
If you can wait and not be tired by waiting,
Two hours or more to kiss his lotus feet
In spite of dehydration, overheating
Just to see him on his golden seat:
If you can dream of nothing but your master
If you can think there's progress in his game
And fail to see your life's become disaster
And everybody thinks you're quite insane
If you can swear it's simple truth you've spoken
And those who can't accept it must be fools,
Or watch the things you gave your life to, broken,
'Coz Prem is God, and Prem Pal makes the rules

If you can make one heap of all your earnings
And blow them on a trip to Amaroo
For nothing less will satisfy your yearnings
When watch your breath is all you want to do
If you can force your heart and nerve and sinew
To serve your master till the day he's gone,
And so hold on when there is nothing in you
Except the Will which says to them: 'Hold on!'
If you can in the ashram keep your virtue
Where Prem says you may look but mustn't touch
If you don't care that loving friends desert you
But tell yourself you never liked them much
If Prem Pal fills your every waking minute
So much you have to say farewell to many
His is your life and everything that's in it,
And--which is more--you'll be a bleedin' premie !

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Date: Wed, Apr 25, 2001 at 08:00:15 (GMT)
From: PatC
Email: None
To: Larkin
Subject: Music to my ear: the whole damn cult's a fiddle NT
Message:
l
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Date: Tues, Apr 24, 2001 at 17:48:42 (GMT)
From: Francesca
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Is this for real!
Message:
If someone could read that or hear that and not understand how ridiculous it is, what can I say!!!

This is a real hoot: 'Into Within Inside Lies a Love that's Waiting to Wait No Longer'

Did M actually say or write that??

'within inside' has always been a fun little term. This guy has turned redundancy into a high art. He should have to go through one proper writing course, and his students should have to take one semester of philosophy. Keep on posting. This stuff is great. And the 'resonance resonates. Well duh. You could have fooled me.

This stuff is where Maharaji's true richness lies. Grab it, baby! Yeah!

--f

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Date: Tues, Apr 24, 2001 at 17:55:48 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Francesca
Subject: Uh, partially
Message:
The boldface text is from ELK. The first part was a joke. But you're right about 'within inside'. I remembered that when I saw 'resonating resonance'.
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Date: Tues, Apr 24, 2001 at 18:40:20 (GMT)
From: Francesca
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Well the part I'm lampooning
Message:
remains the same, I guess. I figured the intro may have been yours. But 'within inside' was one of his cutey cutey terms. An 'inside' expression for those who truly lived inside and didn't dare look outside.

It's so clear that he doesn't know what he's talking about that it's amazing. Does he have any poetry books out?? LOLs!!!

--f

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Date: Tues, Apr 24, 2001 at 20:45:20 (GMT)
From: Kelly
Email: None
To: Francesca
Subject: Well the part I'm lampooning
Message:
I've got one or two of his pomes somewhere, they are truly crass.
This is just a quick hello to let you know that I have replied to your posts way below. But check the thread above. M at Amaroo, fluent drivel! How can anyone take him seriously?
Kelly
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Date: Tues, Apr 24, 2001 at 17:02:32 (GMT)
From: Steve Quint
Email: the_avenger55@hotmail.com
To: Jim
Subject: Hopefully OT
Message:
A kool page.
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Date: Tues, Apr 24, 2001 at 19:33:19 (GMT)
From: Zelda
Email: None
To: Prom Pawwed Sinjed
Subject: Rawwatt! Hurry to Steves link above!Please NT
Message:
nt
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Tues, Apr 24, 2001 at 15:48:08 (GMT)
From: Jean-Michel
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: This is a scoop: magazine just published on EV
Message:
in France.

L'Aliénation Sectaire - N° Spécial Mai 2001 de 'Combat'

Enquête et témoignages sur le cas Elan Vital

Don't miss it (if you can read French) !!!!


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Date: Wed, Apr 25, 2001 at 14:56:08 (GMT)
From: Nigel
Email: None
To: Jean-Michel
Subject: This is a scoop: magazine just published on EV
Message:
'Bonjour Jean, comment vas-tu?'
'Tres bien, merci, et toi?
'Pas mal'
'Dis donc, ou est la bibliotheque?'
'C'est tous droit. Tu y vas toute de suite?'
'Oui, je cherche un livre'
'Pourquoi?'
'J'ai faime.'
'Qui est-ce?'
'C'est un ami'
'Comment s'appelle t'il?'
'Il s'appelle Paul. Je voudrai a presenter Paul Martin.'
'Bonjour Paul, comment vas-tu?'
'Tres bien, merci, et toi?
'Je me suis casse la jambe!'
'Qu'est-ce que tu pense a faire pendant des grand vacances?'
'Je voudrais allez au bord de la mere'
'Ah bien. Tu y vas toute de suite?'
'Oui. La plume de ma tante est dans le bureau de mon oncle.'
'C'est formidable! Sank 'eavens for leetle girls.'
'Aimez vous Charles Aznavour? Johnny Halliday?'
'Non. Je t'aime moi non plus.'
'Plaisir d'amour ne durent un moment. Chagrin d'amour durent toute la vie.'
'Merci beaucoups. La recherche de temps perdu.'
'Mais si tu doit partir, va temps!
'Mais je me suis casse la jambe!'
'Merde!'

Sorry that's all the gallic stuff I know, but you catch my drift... Nice one J-M.

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Date: Wed, Apr 25, 2001 at 07:10:07 (GMT)
From: suchabonhomme
Email: None
To: Jean-Michel
Subject: Allons enfants de la vie libre, c'est la joie...
Message:
[pas d'autre texte...]

Paix et legumes,

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Date: Wed, Apr 25, 2001 at 00:53:58 (GMT)
From: Katie H
Email: None
To: Jean-Michel
Subject: Congratulations, J-M!
Message:
I just wish I could read French :). All I know about 'Combat' is that Sartre used to write a lot of articles for them.

This is definitely a HUGE scoop - and I'm sure it took a lot of effort on your part. You are to be congratulated!

Lots of love,
Katie

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Date: Wed, Apr 25, 2001 at 00:22:35 (GMT)
From: Tim G
Email: None
To: Jean-Michel
Subject: This is a scoop: magazine just published on EV
Message:
Congratulations. I get the feeling you have put a lot of work into this. Probably boring to do it, but it is a public service.There are so many more wonderful things to attend to in this world than the crummy old cult we got involved in. Enlightenment for one (with a small 'e' as well as a big one)
Anyway this is a blow for freedom.
love
Tim
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Date: Wed, Apr 25, 2001 at 18:19:13 (GMT)
From: cq
Email: None
To: Tim G
Subject: er, you mean a blow for ... er, not freedom?(nt)
Message:
English can be a bitch sometimes.
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Wed, Apr 25, 2001 at 00:01:25 (GMT)
From: Francesca
Email: None
To: Jean-Michel
Subject: Loved the cover, can't read French
Message:
It looks like the spiders from Mars or something. One of my sisters CAN read French so at least I'll give her the link and she can read it. Is the article longer than what's on the website? You mentioned photos and I didn't see any. I'm assuming the stuff on the website is a 'teaser' to read the whole thing.

Good work, in any event. Best wishes, f

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Date: Tues, Apr 24, 2001 at 23:50:19 (GMT)
From: Elan Vital
Email: None
To: Jean-Michel
Subject: We are appalled
Message:
Dear Jean Michel:

Elan Vital is dismayed and appalled that something negative about Maharaji and knowledge was published in some rag in France. We aren't surprised, though, Masters through the ages have had to put up with a lot worse. They are never accepted you know, and people always, because they are confused and bound to burn in hell for all eternity, oppose the Master. All the Masters have always been attacked, so, in that sense, all you ex-premies are just fulfilling a role that has been around for ages. Maharaji feels strongly that everything is just so beautiful, and were it not for the fact that the Pwks were so ungrateful and stingy, he would have put you all out of business years ago.

Regarding translation of the article in question, as described on the Amaroo section of the Elan Vital website, Elan Vital has set up translation in Amaroo in a number of languages, 10 to be exact: Urdo, Swahili, Crow, Souix, Esperanto, Classical and Pig Latin, Gaelic, Farsi, and English. So far, we haven't had much request for these translations, although a few Pwks were told that translation from English to English isn't really necessary an they seemed to have that understanding that this is true and just so beautiful.

Nevertheless, we would be happy arrange for a translation of the article from French to English. In fact, we have already translated it, and we find that, by some miracle, it isn't negative at all, and all of it is now on the Elan Vital Website, as a history of Maharaji and his message. It's just so beautiful.

Sincerely in synchronization,

Elan Vital

Elan Vital: Absolutely not a cult since 1971

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Date: Tues, Apr 24, 2001 at 19:42:04 (GMT)
From: Kelly
Email: None
To: Jean-Michel
Subject: This is a scoop: magazine just published on EV
Message:
Hi Jean Michel,
This looks really interesting! Can you tell us a little about this magazine, before you retire! What sort of circulation does it have. What type of people read it etc. I would love to buy a copy, but I think we should let the premies read it first!
I really like the cover, and I'm loking forward to your complete translation, then you can relax!
Well done
Kelly
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Date: Tues, Apr 24, 2001 at 17:13:25 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Jean-Michel
Subject: Here's Alta Vista's English version of your page
Message:
Initially devoted to the fight against the AIDS, the Combat review covers from now on the field of the public health and the questions known as of company. Among these last, the topic of the sects does today the One of the topicality, in particular through the lawsuit concerning the Command of the Solar Temple and the fate of this young Witness of Jéhovah refusing a vital blood transfusion... In addition, before long, the members of Parliament will take again their debate on the concept of mental handling. COMBAT publishes (in April 2001) a special number of 44 pages on this topic. It includes/understands three parts: - the first entitled ' For a public discussion on sectarian alienation ' will be devoted to the discussion in depth on the concepts of sect, mental handling, social control with, inter alia contributions, a discussion with Alain Vivien, President of the Interdepartmental Mission of Fight against the Sects, of the articles of Jean-Luc Guilhem and Hubert Lisandre and an opinion column of Thierry Meyssan, president of the Voltaire Network for the freedom of expression; - the second part, entitled ' Investigation with the c?ur of Vital Dash, sect of Gourou Maharaji ', includes/understands series of articles which reveal the operation of this movement particularly little known, its composition, analyze the speech of them, present of them its economic ramifications in the training area of the adults; - the third part, entitled ' Free words of ex-in love ', includes/understands several talks and testimonys of former disciples, in particular that of a former administrator of the sect which animates a Internet site today to help ' those which want to come out of there '. The design and the realization of this number must much with testimonys of former followers of Vital Dash (or of the Mission of the Divine Light) and with certain ' premies ' which accepted an exchange. Some of them testify in the third part of this number. That they are thanked here for their decisive contribution and their confidence. The anonymity of some of them, for reasons of security, inter alia, is and will be completely guaranteed. This number also profited from the consultings of Thierry Meyssan, president of the Voltaire Network. Among the documentary sources, it is necessary to quote the Internet site of the ex-Premies, the movements and associations of fight against the sects. Before diffusion, this number was the subject of a step near and the Minister of Interior Department Public prosecutor. Synopsis of this Special Number. 1st Part: Stakes. For a public discussion on sectarian alienation. - sectarian Alienation and social control: two faces of mental handling? Can one speak about the sects differently than by formulating a moral judgement? Which could be the bases of a political approach of the sectarian phenomenon? By Gilles Alfonsi. - noninfluence with freedom. In the generalized conditioning of the social individuals, to fight against the influence - that it is sectarian or different - exerted by an organization on a person is not enough. By Jean-Luc Guilhem. - Handling, standards and realities: an excess of ordinances. The concept of mental handling makes the dead end on the reasons which lead to unslung enthusiasms, sectarian or psychotherapeutic. By Hubert Lisandre. - the fight against the sects: the business of the greatest number. The President of the interdepartmental Mission of Fight against the sects approaches the principal current stakes of the debate on the sectarian influence. Discussion with Alain Vivien. - the Woman, Gourou and the psychoanalist. Tell for small the human ones on the path. By Jean-Luc Guilhem. 2nd Part: Inquire. With the c?ur of Vital Dash, sect of Gourou Maharaji. - It was once Vital the Elan sect Entirely dedicated to the worship of the gourou Maharaji, Elan Vital develops techniques of sophisticated handling. By Gilles Alfonsi. - the day when I saw Maharaji with the Palate of the Congresses. U
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Date: Wed, Apr 25, 2001 at 10:26:49 (GMT)
From: AJW
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Bravo Jean-Michel
Message:
Tu es un hero. C'est formidable.

Je can't wait a reader le translation.

Anth le paysanne.

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Date: Tues, Apr 24, 2001 at 18:05:34 (GMT)
From: cq
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: alternative translation (nearly as odd as AV's)
Message:
Slightly better translation from http://ets.freetranslation.com:5081/ -- Translation Results by SDL International --

Initially consecrated to the fight against Aids, the magazine
COMBAT cover henceforth the field of public health and said questions
of corporation. Among these last, the theme of the sectes done
today it A current event, notably through the process concerning
the order of the Solar Temple and the sort of this young Witness
Jéhovah refusing a vital blood transfusion... On the other hand,
before long, the parliamentary will resume their debate on the
concept mental manipulation. COMBAT publish (to the month of
April 2001) a special number of 44 orderlies on this theme. It
understands three parts: - The first entitled 'For a public debate on
the l'aliénation sectaire' will be consecrated to the debate bottom
on the notions secte, of mental manipulation, of social check with,
between other contributions, a maintenance with Alain Vivien,
Preside Mission Interministérielle Fight against the Sectes,items
John-Luc Guilhem and Hubert Lisandre and a free tribune of
Thierry Meyssan, preside Network Voltaire for the liberty
expression; - The second part, entitled 'Investigate to the cœur
Vital d'Elan, secte of the Gourou Maharaji', understands a series of
items that reveal the functioning of this particularly poorly known
movement, his composition, some analyze the speech, in present its
economical ramifications in the domain of theformation of adults; -
The third part, entitled 'Free words d'ex-amoureux', understands
several maintenances and testimonies of former disciples, in
particular the one of a former administrator of the secte that
animate today a site Internet to help 'those that want some to go
out'. The conception and the realization of this number have a lot to
the testimonies of former followers Vital d'Elan (or Mission of the
Divine Light) and to certain 'premies' that accepted an exchange.
Certain of them témoignent in the third part of this number. What
they here are thanked for their decisive contribution and their
confidence. The L'anonymat of certain of them, for reasons
security, between other, is and totally will be guaranteed. This
number also benefitted from the counsels Thierry Meyssan, preside
Network Voltaire. Among the sources documentaries, it is
necessary to quote the site Internet of the ex-ex-premies, the
movements and associations fight against the sectes. Before
broadcasting, this number did the object of a gait near of the
Procureur of the Republic and minister of the interior. Brief of this
Special Number. 1st Part: Enjeux. For a public debate on the
l'aliénation sectaire. - Aliénation sectaire and social check: two
faces of the mental manipulation? Is able-one to speak of sectes
otherwise that while formulating a judgement morale? Which could
be the foundations of a political approach of the phenomenon
sectaire? By Gilles Alfonsi. - Non-mastery to liberty. In the
generalized conditionnement of the social individuals, fight against
the mastery - that she sectaire or other - exercised by an
organization on a person does not suffice. By John-Luc Guilhem. -
Manipulations, norms and realities: an excess of orders. The notion
mental manipulation does the l'impasse on the reasons that drive to
enthusiasms débridés, sectaires or psychothérapeutiques. By
Hubert Lisandre. - The fight against the sectes: the matter of the
biggest number. The President of the Mission interministérielle Fight
against the sectes approach the principal current enjeux of the
debate on the mastery sectaire. Maintenance with Alain Vivien. -
The Woman, THE Gourou and the psychanalyste. Tell for small of
humans on the way. By John-Luc Guilhem. 2nd Part: Investigate.
To the cœur Vital d'Elan, secte of the Gourou Maharaji. - It was
once the secte Vital Elan Completely devoted to the worship of the
gourou Maharaji, Vital Elan develop techniques manipulations
sophistiquées. By Gilles Alfonsi. - The day where I saw Maharaji
to the Palace of Congresses. A lecture of the gourou Maharaji, this
is a show where nothing is left at random. At the time of his last
turned, it has once furthermore left a to remember 'impérissable'.
For his wallet? By the inspector Voitou. - The hazardous
reconversion of the Gourou. Likable network to the service of a
professor meditation or organization tentaculaire to the service of
the enrichment of a despote, the l'ancienne Mission of the stretched
Divine Light a hazardous reconversion. To the peril of faith? By
Pascal Damoinet. - A pseudo-philosophy poorly déguisée at the
planning stage of individual emancipation. The witty path proposed
by Maharaji, through a pseudo-philosophical rhétorique,
s'apparente itself to a bricolage discursif teinté of funny histories.
Especially, it annihile the l'ambitieuse look for of a peace intérieure,
the quest of the happiness of which it wants himself the dépositaire
of keys. By Gilles Alfonsi. - The fine techniques of the Knowledge.
The placement in scene of the teaching of the four techniques that
form the knowledge raise register of the l' auto-illusion. By Pascal
Damoinet. - Management & Performance. Management &
Performance, undertaken spécialisée in the formation of adults and
the formation continue, is directed by of important responsible of
Vital d'Elan. She revendique of prestigious customers. By Gilles
Alfonsi. - Chronic of the fortune Maharaji. By the inspector
Voitou. 3rd Part: Testimonies. Words. - The fronde of the
'ex-ex-premies' against the Lord of the universe. Former
administrator of the Mission of the Divine Light then of Vital Elan,
J'S-M Kahn is today it one of the animateurs of a fronde of the
former followers against the system Maharaji, notably in the
framework of the site Internet ex-premie. org. Maintenance with
J'S-M Kahn. - Ex-premie or ex-first. This is not the least
characteristic Vital d'Elan to have sécrété his own negative pôle, by
a site open to all the disappointed secte. By Hubert Lisandre. - Old
in love of Maharaji, I am henceforth insoumis. Former premie
(disciple) Mission of the Divine Light then of Vital Elan, François
Denis relates his unique trajectory in the secte, of his adolescence
to his recent rupture. Maintenance with François Denis. - My cruel
witty disappointment. Frank Algier, former follower Vital d'Elan,
témoigne of his traverse witty. For him, this is sure, Maharaji is not
the Lord of the universe. By Frank Algier. - The religious
manipulation of Vital d'Elan, an among so other. Testimony of an
ancienne follower Vital d'Elan. She denounces the exploitation of
religious feelings, so in the movements marginaux that in the
authorized churches. By Estelle River. - Free Tribune to the
president of the Network Voltaire. Révérend Moon, the Return.
By Thierry Meyssan.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Tues, Apr 24, 2001 at 18:11:21 (GMT)
From: cq
Email: None
To: all
Subject: with working link
Message:
Link should be: http://www.freetranslation.com/

Initially consecrated to the fight against Aids, the magazine
COMBAT cover henceforth the field of public health and said questions
of corporation. Among these last, the theme of the sectes done
today it A current event, notably through the process concerning
the order of the Solar Temple and the sort of this young Witness
Jéhovah refusing a vital blood transfusion... On the other hand,
before long, the parliamentary will resume their debate on the
concept mental manipulation. COMBAT publish (to the month of
April 2001) a special number of 44 orderlies on this theme. It
understands three parts: - The first entitled 'For a public debate on
the l'aliénation sectaire' will be consecrated to the debate bottom
on the notions secte, of mental manipulation, of social check with,
between other contributions, a maintenance with Alain Vivien,
Preside Mission Interministérielle Fight against the Sectes,items
John-Luc Guilhem and Hubert Lisandre and a free tribune of
Thierry Meyssan, preside Network Voltaire for the liberty
expression; - The second part, entitled 'Investigate to the cœur
Vital d'Elan, secte of the Gourou Maharaji', understands a series of
items that reveal the functioning of this particularly poorly known
movement, his composition, some analyze the speech, in present its
economical ramifications in the domain of theformation of adults; -
The third part, entitled 'Free words d'ex-amoureux', understands
several maintenances and testimonies of former disciples, in
particular the one of a former administrator of the secte that
animate today a site Internet to help 'those that want some to go
out'. The conception and the realization of this number have a lot to
the testimonies of former followers Vital d'Elan (or Mission of the
Divine Light) and to certain 'premies' that accepted an exchange.
Certain of them témoignent in the third part of this number. What
they here are thanked for their decisive contribution and their
confidence. The L'anonymat of certain of them, for reasons
security, between other, is and totally will be guaranteed. This
number also benefitted from the counsels Thierry Meyssan, preside
Network Voltaire. Among the sources documentaries, it is
necessary to quote the site Internet of the ex-ex-premies, the
movements and associations fight against the sectes. Before
broadcasting, this number did the object of a gait near of the
Procureur of the Republic and minister of the interior. Brief of this
Special Number. 1st Part: Enjeux. For a public debate on the
l'aliénation sectaire. - Aliénation sectaire and social check: two
faces of the mental manipulation? Is able-one to speak of sectes
otherwise that while formulating a judgement morale? Which could
be the foundations of a political approach of the phenomenon
sectaire? By Gilles Alfonsi. - Non-mastery to liberty. In the
generalized conditionnement of the social individuals, fight against
the mastery - that she sectaire or other - exercised by an
organization on a person does not suffice. By John-Luc Guilhem. -
Manipulations, norms and realities: an excess of orders. The notion
mental manipulation does the l'impasse on the reasons that drive to
enthusiasms débridés, sectaires or psychothérapeutiques. By
Hubert Lisandre. - The fight against the sectes: the matter of the
biggest number. The President of the Mission interministérielle Fight
against the sectes approach the principal current enjeux of the
debate on the mastery sectaire. Maintenance with Alain Vivien. -
The Woman, THE Gourou and the psychanalyste. Tell for small of
humans on the way. By John-Luc Guilhem. 2nd Part: Investigate.
To the cœur Vital d'Elan, secte of the Gourou Maharaji. - It was
once the secte Vital Elan Completely devoted to the worship of the
gourou Maharaji, Vital Elan develop techniques manipulations
sophistiquées. By Gilles Alfonsi. - The day where I saw Maharaji
to the Palace of Congresses. A lecture of the gourou Maharaji, this
is a show where nothing is left at random. At the time of his last
turned, it has once furthermore left a to remember 'impérissable'.
For his wallet? By the inspector Voitou. - The hazardous
reconversion of the Gourou. Likable network to the service of a
professor meditation or organization tentaculaire to the service of
the enrichment of a despote, the l'ancienne Mission of the stretched
Divine Light a hazardous reconversion. To the peril of faith? By
Pascal Damoinet. - A pseudo-philosophy poorly déguisée at the
planning stage of individual emancipation. The witty path proposed
by Maharaji, through a pseudo-philosophical rhétorique,
s'apparente itself to a bricolage discursif teinté of funny histories.
Especially, it annihile the l'ambitieuse look for of a peace intérieure,
the quest of the happiness of which it wants himself the dépositaire
of keys. By Gilles Alfonsi. - The fine techniques of the Knowledge.
The placement in scene of the teaching of the four techniques that
form the knowledge raise register of the l' auto-illusion. By Pascal
Damoinet. - Management & Performance. Management &
Performance, undertaken spécialisée in the formation of adults and
the formation continue, is directed by of important responsible of
Vital d'Elan. She revendique of prestigious customers. By Gilles
Alfonsi. - Chronic of the fortune Maharaji. By the inspector
Voitou. 3rd Part: Testimonies. Words. - The fronde of the
'ex-ex-premies' against the Lord of the universe. Former
administrator of the Mission of the Divine Light then of Vital Elan,
J'S-M Kahn is today it one of the animateurs of a fronde of the
former followers against the system Maharaji, notably in the
framework of the site Internet ex-premie. org. Maintenance with
J'S-M Kahn. - Ex-premie or ex-first. This is not the least
characteristic Vital d'Elan to have sécrété his own negative pôle, by
a site open to all the disappointed secte. By Hubert Lisandre. - Old
in love of Maharaji, I am henceforth insoumis. Former premie
(disciple) Mission of the Divine Light then of Vital Elan, François
Denis relates his unique trajectory in the secte, of his adolescence
to his recent rupture. Maintenance with François Denis. - My cruel
witty disappointment. Frank Algier, former follower Vital d'Elan,
témoigne of his traverse witty. For him, this is sure, Maharaji is not
the Lord of the universe. By Frank Algier. - The religious
manipulation of Vital d'Elan, an among so other. Testimony of an
ancienne follower Vital d'Elan. She denounces the exploitation of
religious feelings, so in the movements marginaux that in the
authorized churches. By Estelle River. - Free Tribune to the
president of the Network Voltaire. Révérend Moon, the Return.
By Thierry Meyssan.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Wed, Apr 25, 2001 at 08:05:36 (GMT)
From: Jean-Michel
Email: None
To: cq
Subject: calling all translators
Message:
The page on EPO is merely a PRESENTATION/INTRODUCTION to the articles.

You'll have to wait a bit to have the articles online ....

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Wed, Apr 25, 2001 at 18:24:29 (GMT)
From: cq
Email: None
To: Jean-Michel
Subject: sussed that, J-M. Good work. Waiting patiently(nt)
Message:
and bravo!
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Date: Tues, Apr 24, 2001 at 17:21:13 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: This is hilarious!
Message:
'Handling, standards and realities: an excess of ordinances. The concept of mental handling makes the dead end on the reasons which lead to unslung enthusiasms, sectarian or psychotherapeutic. By Hubert Lisandre. - the fight against the sects: the business of the greatest number. The President of the interdepartmental Mission of Fight against the sects approaches the principal current stakes of the debate on the sectarian influence. Discussion with Alain Vivien. - the Woman, Gourou and the psychoanalist. Tell for small the human ones on the path. By Jean-Luc Guilhem. 2nd Part: Inquire. With the c?ur of Vital Dash, sect of Gourou Maharaji. - It was once Vital the Elan sect Entirely dedicated to the worship of the gourou Maharaji, Elan Vital develops techniques of sophisticated handling. By Gilles Alfonsi. - the day when I saw Maharaji with the Palate of the Congresses.

The Palate of the Congresses? Too much!

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Date: Tues, Apr 24, 2001 at 17:16:37 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: My favorite part
Message:
the third part, entitled ' Free words of ex-in love ', includes/understands several talks and testimonys of former disciples, in particular that of a former administrator of the sect which animates a Internet site today to help ' those which want to come out of there '.
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Tues, Apr 24, 2001 at 16:54:22 (GMT)
From: Way
Email: None
To: Jean-Michel
Subject: Bravo!
Message:
JM,

Felicitations! Je vais me procurer ce numero toute suite. Merci pour tous vos efforts!

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Tues, Apr 24, 2001 at 16:57:29 (GMT)
From: Jean-Michel
Email: None
To: Way
Subject: Quick before premies buy them all (nt) !!
Message:
aaa
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Date: Tues, Apr 24, 2001 at 15:54:25 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Jean-Michel
Subject: Hate to ask but ...........
Message:
JM,

This looks incredible. Only problem is .... I hate to ask ....um, well, what does it say?

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Tues, Apr 24, 2001 at 16:32:50 (GMT)
From: Jean-Michel
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Here's a quick summary ...
Message:
There are 3 parts in this 44 pages magazine.

1st part: 5 articles on the sociological, political and psychological aspects of cults, including the interview of a French government official !

2nd part: 7 articles. Original investigation on EV in France
- EV's manipulation techniques
- m's last program in Paris. Some journalists sneaked in the event. Including copies of EV's documents.
- what's EV about.
- analysis of EV's propaganda and m's addresses
- the techniques of k (demonstrated with pictures)
- management & performance: investigation on the premies' managing consultant business in France
- m's wealth

3rd part: testimonies
- presentation of the ex-premie movement and EPO!
- analysis of the ex-premies' action
- 3 testimonies (me, and 2 other French exes)
- an article on rev Moon

These guys did a fantastic job.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Thurs, Apr 26, 2001 at 07:57:45 (GMT)
From: bill
Email: None
To: Jean-Michel
Subject: Chef JM, You have cooked his goose beautifully..nt
Message:
fdsh
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Tues, Apr 24, 2001 at 18:09:01 (GMT)
From: Ulf
Email: None
To: Jean-Michel
Subject: Very very very , Good, thanks,!!!!! nt.
Message:
eee
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Date: Tues, Apr 24, 2001 at 17:14:11 (GMT)
From: Jean-Michel
Email: None
To: Jean-Michel
Subject: Forgot to mention the many pictures of m
Message:
including some of the old Krishna crown .... and several illustrations. I bet Mr Rawat won't like these drawings ...

Most of these pictures are not around anymore, and the journalists found most them in old DLM's magazines in the French National Library ...

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Date: Tues, Apr 24, 2001 at 16:35:20 (GMT)
From: Joe
Email: None
To: Jean-Michel
Subject: Wow
Message:
Aren't there software programs that will do a translation?
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Date: Tues, Apr 24, 2001 at 16:54:03 (GMT)
From: Jean-Michel
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: Before you translate
Message:
you'll need to have the magazine online ..... and that should happen shortly !!

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Date: Tues, Apr 24, 2001 at 16:10:52 (GMT)
From: Jean-Michel
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: This is no secret !
Message:
It says a lot .....

44 pages to translate. Anybody volunteers ?

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Date: Wed, Apr 25, 2001 at 09:14:38 (GMT)
From: janet
Email: None
To: Jean-Michel
Subject: i can do it with french collaboration
Message:
i took french from age 12 to college and got straight A's. but i haven't used it in years, and i never got to go to france and use it in everyday life.
i could do a partial translation, if i had a french counterpart who could fine tune my memory of the actual meanings of terms, as the french understand them. my first run-thru of the article, before i read your quick summary, matched the meanings about 94% correctly. so perhaps you can think of a french ex who is reasonably versed in english, well enought that i could work together with? between their correcting my french and I adjusting their use of english, we could turn out a good translation of the issue.

i think the alta vista attempt pretty much proved how useless THAT method is...

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Date: Wed, Apr 25, 2001 at 14:08:12 (GMT)
From: Katie H
Email: None
To: janet
Subject: Janet, this is great!
Message:
Translation is a lot of work, but it sounds like you can do it. Brian's been able to do some Spanish translation, although it sounds like your French is better than his Spanish, but you do need help from a native speaker. Anyway, it would be great if you could do that!
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Date: Wed, Apr 25, 2001 at 09:30:34 (GMT)
From: Jean-Michel
Email: jmkahn@club-internet.fr
To: janet
Subject: I can help !
Message:
GREAT !!

I guess we can 1st translate that introductory page ....

Email me a draft, and we'll see if this is feasible.

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Date: Tues, Apr 24, 2001 at 16:20:38 (GMT)
From: Jerry
Email: None
To: Jean-Michel
Subject: It is to me!
Message:
How about just telling us what it's about at least? I haven't got a clue from anything you've said so far.

Does it have something to do with France's entry into the Miss Universe pageant, perhaps? No?

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Date: Tues, Apr 24, 2001 at 16:19:51 (GMT)
From: Marianne
Email: None
To: Jean-Michel
Subject: Can you give us some highlights?
Message:
Or lowlights, as the case may be.
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Date: Tues, Apr 24, 2001 at 15:57:53 (GMT)
From: Kaj
Email: None
To: J-M
Subject: Great!
Message:
Good work, J-M!
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Date: Tues, Apr 24, 2001 at 17:03:22 (GMT)
From: Jean-Michel
Email: None
To: Kaj
Subject: I think I'm going to retire now ...
Message:
With EV's and m's thanks ....
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Date: Tues, Apr 24, 2001 at 10:55:20 (GMT)
From: Mr. Mind
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: Adult Children of Alcoholics
Message:
I found the passage below and found some of it relevant to the question-how could I have been so stupid as to get involved in the Maharaji cult? I hope it is helpful to some others.
_________________________________________________________________

Many of us found that we had several characteristics in common as a result of being brought up in an alcoholic or other dysfunctional households.

We had come to feel isolated, and uneasy with other people, especially authority figures. To protect ourselves, we became people pleasers, even though we lost our own identities in the process. All the same we would mistake any personal criticism as a threat.

We either became alcoholics ourselves, married them, or both. Failing that, we found other compulsive personalities, such as a workaholic, to fulfill our sick need for abandonment.

We lived live from the standpoint of victims. Having an over developed sense of responsibility, we preferred to be concerned with others rather than ourselves. We got guilt feelings when we trusted ourselves, giving in to others. We became reactors rather than actors, letting others take the initiative.

We were dependent personalities, terrified of abandonment, willing to do almost anything to hold on to a relationship in order not to be abandoned emotionally. We keep choosing insecure relationships because they matched our childhood relationship with alcoholic or dysfunctional parents.

These symptoms of the family disease of alcoholism or other dysfunction made us 'co-victims', those who take on the characteristics of the disease without necessarily ever taking a drink. We learned to keep our feelings down as children and keep them buried as adults. As a result of this conditioning, we often confused love with pity, tending to love those we could rescue.

Even more self-defeating, we became addicted to excitement in all our affairs, preferring constant upset to workable solutions.

This is a description, not an indictment.

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Date: Wed, Apr 25, 2001 at 06:28:48 (GMT)
From: DeProGram Anand Ji
Email: not given
To: Mr. Mind
Subject: Adult Children of Alcoholics
Message:
Being a ACOA, an EXPremie, and a recovering alchoholic, I can concur with most of this statement. I think that I was unconsciously trying to replace my alchoholic father, (a tough insensitve irishman) with a 'peace loving' Father knows best who seemed to have all the answers for everyone. I didn't realize I was trading one alchoholic father for another one. And also one dysfuctional family for another, how could I know I was only 12 years old. All I knew was compared to my violent alchoholic home DLM looked like a paradise. I didn't realise that it was an insidious form of slavery and dependancy, I didn't want acknowledge that fact. I was in denial about it.
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Date: Tues, Apr 24, 2001 at 14:08:23 (GMT)
From: Katie H
Email: None
To: Mr. Mind
Subject: Adult Children of Alcoholics
Message:
Hey Mr. Mind -
I'm familiar with that quote (I think it's from Janet Gerhinger Wotitz? Maybe I'm wrong), and I agree with a lot of it but not all of it. I think it tends to read like an indictment, and I have found personally that people can, and do, change - especially when they recognize those things in themselves. Also, all ACOA's don't have all those characteristics, and as Scott pointed out, many people who were raised in non-alcoholic homes DO have some of those characteristics. But otherwise, the quote (and other material about ACOA's) is very applicable to many of us ex-premies.

TC -
Katie

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Date: Tues, Apr 24, 2001 at 16:17:37 (GMT)
From: Joe
Email: None
To: Katie H
Subject: Adult Children of Alcoholics
Message:
Katie,

I agree about how the quote reads, and I also think that ACOAs have degrees of those characteristics. Plus, there are all other kinds of circumstances that enhance or mitigate against them. Although I blame the cult for causing me lots of damage, I think the propensities for me to do what I did existed before I was ever in the cult, and really did come from my childhood. I only made this connection through lots of therapy.

I'm an ACOA myself, and I see some of those characteristics in me, but some of them I don't.

But it makes sense to me, that people who may have grown up in an unstable family, made so by alcoholism or some other addiction, might be more attracted to an idyllic father figure, who, although in a young body, is actually an ancient being who has been around since creation. That could be very comforting. Plus, the cult offered, a simple, ordered life, or at least it did back when I was involved, and a kind of 'family' of premies, the ashram, the community, etc.

Now, since ashram and even communities are weak or nonexistent in the cult, I think the comfort the cult gives is a belief that there is some kind of bedrock truth that can always be relied upon, and they might go to see Maharaji so that he and the group can reinforce that belief.

I think fundamentalist religions do much the same thing.

Joe

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Date: Wed, Apr 25, 2001 at 00:26:26 (GMT)
From: Katie H
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: Adult Children of Alcoholics
Message:
Hey Joe,
(Hope your family is not under water, btw!)

I was definitely attracted to the 'family' and 'order' aspects of following M because I was an ACOA. Also, I was used to cognitive dissonance and weird things happening within a family, so that didn't seem that bad to me either. However, one other thing I got from growing up in an alcoholic home was a very strong need never to be trapped in a bad situation again - that is what helped me to LEAVE - I felt like I was gonna die if I didn't.

I am not too bad at making and keeping commitments in general, but I won't honor doomed commitments.

One more thing that Mr. Mind pointed out was that ACOA's are used to drama in their lives and some even become addicted to it. I got used to it for sure, but never became addicted (luckily). I know a few other ACOA's who are struggling with their need to be in dramatic situations, and it's not easy. I think M and company fed this need for some of us.

Take care, and keep dry :)
Love,
Katie

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Date: Tues, Apr 24, 2001 at 13:46:00 (GMT)
From: Scott T.
Email: None
To: Mr. Mind
Subject: Adult Children of Alcoholics
Message:
MM:

I've been thinking about this lately in the context that my childhood was very idyllic. Neither of my parents were alcoholic, although mildly dysfunctional WASPs. I spent most of my childhood traipsing around a rural neighborhood investigating the strange goings-on of the animal kingdom. I got along well with people, had a decent sense of self, did well in school, etc. Then came the sixties with the drug culture, and the seventies with the gurus. After that I seemed to have acquired all the characteristics of ACAs and other abused children that you mention. This was especially noticeable in terms of the fact that my romantic relationships where no longer good for me. So, I don't think it was my childhood that was the problem, but my young adulthood in a rather dysfunctional and incomplete society that I did not understand at all.

It's important to understand your social environment. The trouble is, I don't see our social environment getting better... but rather, worse. There will be a lot of screwed up people who had pretty good childhoods in terms of their parental conditions, and there will be a lot more children raised in wildly dysfunctional families. I think the guru business will do fine, unless we acquire a more accurate understanding of our social environment. Gurus essentially substitute for real knowledge and understanding of conditions that most people disregard.

--Scott

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Date: Tues, Apr 24, 2001 at 23:33:47 (GMT)
From: a0aji
Email: chris@hafey.com
To: Scott T.
Subject: Adult Children of Alcoholics
Message:
Scott,

There are many causes for dysfunction in the family,
including shared trauma. For example, if a sibling
loses both legs in a car accident, that's plenty of
trauma to turn the whole family dysfunctional.

a0aji

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Date: Tues, Apr 24, 2001 at 14:27:43 (GMT)
From: Mr. Mind
Email: None
To: Scott T.
Subject: Scott and Katie/you are my mother and you are...
Message:
Hi you guys,

While this subject applies to those of us who had alcoholic parents, it applies to all of us in the sense of accepting Mr. Maha as a substitute parent and unless we were just 'social premies', we did. We took his words and actions(those that we knew of)as acceptable. We imitated him in many ways. He was a role model, just as our parents were. Somehow, we learned to live a life filled with inconsistencies. We sought true love but many also learned to step on others at their whim. It was all just an illusion anyway, right??

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Date: Wed, Apr 25, 2001 at 00:33:05 (GMT)
From: Katie H
Email: None
To: Mr. Mind
Subject: Personality factors
Message:
Hey Mr. Mind -
This is a hot topic around here :), but I really think that all of us who entered the cult had some pre-disposing personality characteristics - although not the SAME pre-disposing personality characteristics - and that these personality characteristics were amplified by time spent following Maharaji. But I do think the personality characteristics were there before we joined.

For example, I needed the order and sense of security, and the parental figures provided by older premies (I NEVER could see Maharaji as a parent figure - he's a year younger than I am. I think I was lucky!) Some people needed, as you said, the drama and constant upheaval and excitement. I think other people needed the sense of being superior at SOMETHING - we did all think that we were spiritually superior (and I think some premies still think this.) I know there are many more reasons.

Also, it was the 'easy' path to enlightenment (or it was supposed to be easy - until you got into it!) - I know that factored into my decision to join :).

Take care,
Katie

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Date: Wed, Apr 25, 2001 at 05:22:02 (GMT)
From: Scott T.
Email: None
To: Katie H
Subject: Personality factors
Message:
Katie:

Well, I don't know. I figure I was a premie because it looked like the best thing around, and at some point something broke through my defenses. So, are impregnable defenses the answer? I don't think so. I'd be willing to consider a messianic figure again, under the right circumstances. I figure being *willing* to consider, is better than the fantasy that unwillingness is some sort of protection. A lot of skeptics were enthralled by Hitler. So I figure to treat all these guys the same at first blush, knowing full well where it can lead, and also knowing that I *can* make that mistake (or something very similar) again.

And because I know I *am* susceptible I'm also willing to say that the potential prize isn't worth the risk. So it's not just these social dysfunctions everyone talks about that are the problem either, but also a kind of greed. It's the same thing that motivates people to hang onto a stock portfolio just a little too long. Weakness yeah, but who's *not* susceptible?

--Scott

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Date: Wed, Apr 25, 2001 at 13:09:38 (GMT)
From: Katie H
Email: None
To: Scott T.
Subject: Personality factors
Message:
Hey Scott -
I know we disagree about this :). I guess I wonder why being a premie looked to you like the 'best thing around' in the first place! That takes a certain amount of innocence, and a lot of imagination. I'm not saying these are bad qualities - I would guess that almost all of us here possessed them. I know a lot of people who would have never entertained the thought of following a guru.

I also knew quite a few people people who were attracted to receiving Knowledge, got it, realized it wasn't what it was cracked up to be, walked away, and never looked back. (Which is apparently why DLM/EV instigated the long indoctrination period before receiving K.) I think that those of us that stuck it out for a while must have also had certain other personality characteristics or fixed ideas (possibly inherent guilt, belief the work ethis, belief in the idea that you don't get something for nothing, thinking that we weren't 'good enough' etc.)

Re 'being willing to consider a messianic figure again', I don't feel that way at all. In fact, I feel very strongly that no one and nothing is or can be 'the answer' - and I am very averse to anyone who presents either themselves or some idea in that way. But maybe that is not what you meant.

I hear what you are saying about greed, but I also think that continued susceptibility involves, as I said, a certain amount of innocence and imagination - maybe personal laziness as well (as in wanting someone else to do it for you.)

Anyway, interesting thoughts -
Take care, Scott
Love,
Katie

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Date: Wed, Apr 25, 2001 at 13:53:36 (GMT)
From: Scott T.
Email: None
To: Katie H
Subject: Personality factors
Message:
Katie:

I meant merely that charisma is essential. It's not an 'optional' thing overall, even though it may seem that way for a long period of time. Believing that it is, is some sort of illusion. We may not all be attracted to the same brand of charisma, but that's just a matter of the way you've set your front door lock, what beliefs you happen to have adopted at the time, etc. There were plenty of people who would not have considered a Guru sure, but many of them followed other charismatic leaders who were just Gurus under a different guise. Many of those people seem completely devoid of imagination to me. What I'm interested in is finding a way to help us differentiate between the good and bad variety. I don't expect to always be able to tell, either; just get better at it. I figure it's safer to assume you *can* be conned, rather than operate under the assumption that you can't.

I could explain all of this in terms of 'getting where we need to be' so that tradition and rationality are sometimes inadequate. If you happen to have successfully excluded charisma then you may be left in the station. Apparently Neanderthal wasn't susceptible. As humans we invented the phenomenon for a reason, and--as it turns out--a perfectly good reason. It gets us past obstacles we would not otherwise be able to traverse, mostly because of what we 'don't know' and therefore can't assume or even consider. Then again, you could go a whole lifetime, or a society could go several generations, without needing that particular device. But when you do need it, and it's not there, you die (or just fade away).

(I suspect this is going to be a very unpopular proposition. I just happen to think there's a lot more evidence *for* than against it. After all, if it *were* possible to safely exclude individual charisma it would solve a lot of problems.)

--Scott

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Date: Wed, Apr 25, 2001 at 14:12:27 (GMT)
From: Katie H
Email: None
To: Scott T.
Subject: Personality factors
Message:
Hey Scott -
You're getting into the theoretical realm - not my strong point. I tend to be suspicious of charisma of any sort now (although I will admit that I'm influenced by it.) But I think charisma needs to be proved by a person's actions - although that ain't always easy.

I know you've thought about this a lot :)!

Take care,
Katie

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Date: Wed, Apr 25, 2001 at 14:50:12 (GMT)
From: Scott T.
Email: None
To: Katie H
Subject: Personality factors
Message:
Katie:

Being suspicious of charisma is very healthy. It's about 95% bad, or maybe more. And although I think good charisma is correlated with certain behaviors, I'm not sure those arrive at the level of a standard. After all, the very nature of charisma is that it transcends conventional standards, which is why it's useful in the first place. It's one of those 'Catch 22' things about the human condition.

I should add, however, that there are situations that are not a close call... especially when the charismatic individual has been operating for a long time. Evidence builds up. The problem is, what to do when the individual shows up for the first time, or is just starting the process. That's when we're most vulnerable, and also when the *need* for charisma is greatest. It's a true dilemma.

My rule of thumb is that if followers seem blocked from exit, psychologically or physically, then that's a very strong indication that something's wrong. But we don't always asses that exit condition accurately. It may seem, for instance, that the exit is open when it actually isn't, or vice versa. I suppose I am personally more convinced by charismatic leaders who don't invest a great deal in hiding their own warts either. I think it may be unrealistic to expect charisma to have a 'perfect' manifestation. Teddy Roosevelt, FDR and Washington come to mind. It's also interesting that a reasonably healthy society tends to generate more 'good' charisma than bad, and the reverse seems also to be true. On the other hand, everyone believes they live in a 'reasonably healthy' society.

'Flawed charisma' is also a fascinating topic. The notion that Lincoln's stature made him somewhat charismatic, even though it is attributable to Marfans and would have eventually killed him had he not been assassinated, fits the picture.

--Scott

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Date: Wed, Apr 25, 2001 at 16:44:57 (GMT)
From: bob
Email: None
To: Scott T.
Subject: Personality factors
Message:
Most of us have experimented with charisma: Have you ever been on the satsang chair? The whole game was to somehow tap into the
-grace?- and let your ramblings be guided by it. Somehow this worked from time to time. (scary huh) It was finding an equilibrium between talking as a person and being a medium, a zombie. Premies who were older, or had had more life experience generally did better.
It could be likely one of the pillars of the charisma found in this cult: even the guru went through this at a young age, with expert guidance.
I found the charisma of some mahatmas much stronger, of course they really were dressed for succes!! M. never got good at it, as these days show at the amaroo gathering (does he have no sense of shame, embarresment?)
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Date: Thurs, Apr 26, 2001 at 01:54:35 (GMT)
From: PatC
Email: None
To: bob
Subject: bob, Rawat drowns his shame with booze
Message:
He actually seems to be too thick-skinned to feel shame or embarassment or, if he does feel a twinge of it, he drowns it with cognac. At one time he had to be carried to bed every night because he was so drunk.
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Date: Tues, Apr 24, 2001 at 23:23:48 (GMT)
From: anonymous parody-maker
Email: None
To: Mr. Mind
Subject: parody of Arti (OT)
Message:
You are my hooker,
You are my dealer,
You are my bookie,
My bored lackey.

You are Krishna!
You are Nixon!
Oh you are Gerald Ford,
Stumbling on the first tee.

You are a sawz-all!
You are a sawz-all,
Oh you are a sawz-all,
Cutting away my self-esteem.

Guru Fraud Mirage G,
My wife was with you
While I was doing service
On your 240 Z.

etc.

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Date: Tues, Apr 24, 2001 at 19:26:17 (GMT)
From: bob
Email: bob_s_32792@yahoo.com
To: Mr. Mind
Subject: adult exguruholics...
Message:
Yesterday I found the maha websites , just browsing, What a flood of emotions suddenly came up! It was '72 and I was only 18.
After a very bad, almost lethal Lsd-overdose 1 1/2 yr before, I was eager to get the knowledge etc. Maybe it saved my life because I was quite confused at the time and it kept me off the street. Going to India was cool, and after that I lived in the ashram for 3 yrs, being in the lower echelon of 'spaced-out' premies. I never had the feelings for M, but thought that this was a psychopathic trait in me(!) After 3 years DLM cut the fat, and I was forced to move out. Good for me!! I was able to distance myself very gradually, but remained on the outer fringes,I thought of myself as a 'thinking premie' Got married to another 'thinking premie' (I still have the scars to prove it!). 9 years later I really quit seeing any value in the whole system, started revealing the techniques to some friends(which I think is the best acknowledgement of distancing,because it revokes the authority of M. as the perfect master by making the promise to him as such null and void(and surprise, no instant stroke!)), and divorced. 10 years later,being rather independent, how guruholic would I still be? I am very UNvegetarian and feel biased against religion.(too much baggage) Try to be productive etc. But yesterday made me wonder: Did I wrap this up properly, or have I just closed off a part of me because it became too toxic?
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Date: Tues, Apr 24, 2001 at 19:35:30 (GMT)
From: PatC
Email: None
To: bob
Subject: Great post, bob
Message:
You said: ''Did I wrap this up properly, or have I just closed off a part of me because it became too toxic?''

If you stick around here for a while I think you will find out.

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Date: Tues, Apr 24, 2001 at 05:29:09 (GMT)
From: Francesca
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: I'm fakking sick of being grateful
Message:
I've come full circle. I didn't ask to be born. I don't know if this world is wonderful. I don't know if life is wonderful. It's just the only thing I know. Things could definitely be worse, but that's obvious. I'm not intimidated by the 8 billion six million forms of choriasi (suffering) I could be reincarnated back in, because I don't believe in it, not the Tibetan Buddhists 6 realms and all the various and sundry hells (there are many hot and cold ones). You can't scare me by telling me that if I'm not grateful and take advantage of this life I'll come back as an ant.

Feeling good and doing good feels good. Feeling bad and doing bad feels bad. Simple, eh? At least for tonight.

Plus, even if someone saved my life (someone did actually, when I was young), I do not think of her every day of my life and ooh and aah and praham to her photo and put flowers in front of it. She lived on my street when I was a kid and I don't even know where she is now. I appreciate her kindness. It took me years to realize I was actually out of my body watching the whole rescue thing (I was drowning).

Whatever you did for me. Whatever anyone did for me. So thanks already. Sheesh.

Francesca -- reacting to the fact that the word grateful shows up too much everywhere, even in this bloody post.

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Date: Tues, Apr 24, 2001 at 16:27:19 (GMT)
From: Joe
Email: None
To: Francesca
Subject: I'm fakking sick of being grateful
Message:
Well said, Francesca.

Gratitude can be a good feeling to have, but then you have to kind of let go of it and move on, or it becomes a trap, like it is for so many premies. A trap set by Mr. Rawat, who is also the benficiary (undeserved) for the gratitude.

Like I think Suzanne was saying about Amaroo, gratitude is actually a lousy feeling, and it's very debilitating. Having to be grateful to somebody else is kind of like slavery. It ties you down to someone or something and I think that's unhealthy.

That girl who saved you probably got as much benefit out of that as you did. It wasn't entirely a selfless act; it was what she did automatically or what she thought she was supposed to do, or perhaps she knew that she wouldn't have been able to live with the guilt if she didn't. It's a lot more complicated than simply gift and gratitude.

But Maharaji doesn't give anything to anyone. He just convinces people that all the good things that happen to them are due to him, and if they aren't grateful, they might go away. So, just like a rabbit's foot or some lucky charm, you might as well hold onto him and his cult, lest bad things begin happen. And as long as there is a critical mass of other people reinforcing that belief, many people will hold onto it.

Maharaji, ought to be the one, if he had any integrity, to break that unhealthy bond. He's the one, that if he came clean, and told the truth, could end his cult of gratitude slavery.

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Date: Tues, Apr 24, 2001 at 18:35:18 (GMT)
From: Francesca
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: Suzanne's posts about Amarscrew were great n/t
Message:
n/t
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Date: Tues, Apr 24, 2001 at 12:43:26 (GMT)
From: Sir Dave
Email: None
To: Francesca
Subject: I'm fakking sick of being grateful
Message:
Sheesh, double sheesh. I didn't know about the Buddists 6 realms, the Moonies only have three and the Christians just two. I'm very UNgrateful for all the religions and all their claptrap. We'd all be better off without them.

My eight year old daughter has a healthy sceptisism about it all and doesn't believe in any of them. And I agree with her.

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Date: Tues, Apr 24, 2001 at 14:47:46 (GMT)
From: Gregg
Email: None
To: Sir Dave
Subject: my daughter and the Ten Commandments
Message:
Sir Dave, your comment about yr 8-year old daughter reminded me of the time I took my 7-year old girl (who just turned 9 last week) to the Mother Cabrini shrine...a giant statue of Jesus that looks out over Denver. It's a nice little hike up a hill...about two hundred steps.

Anyway, one of the features at the top is a series of ten giant gravestone-looking things, featuring the Ten Commandments.

Not having had much of a Christian education, Quinn had a lot of questions about them. So I dutifully tried to explain them all. The ones about not lying, stealing, murderering or kissing (as I tactfully put it) your neigbor's wife all made sense.

But the first few (like, thou should have no other gods but ME ME ME!) were just plain wrong, in her opinion. What kind of god would be that bossy, she wondered.

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Date: Tues, Apr 24, 2001 at 15:51:43 (GMT)
From: Francesca
Email: None
To: Gregg
Subject: Bossy GOD, I love it - thanx! n/t
Message:
n/t
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Date: Tues, Apr 24, 2001 at 14:34:24 (GMT)
From: salam
Email: None
To: Sir Dave
Subject: Am bloody greatful for being sick
Message:
Now this is something. where the hell did they get 8 million incarnations. Assuming a life time averages 70 years, that will be 8 by 7=56. Add the zeros will make it 560 000 000 and that is not taking into account that you don't get incarnated immediatly. Say every 300 years, humm, that will be something like 3 by 8=24, put the zero in again, makes it 2400 000 000. So add the numbers up and you're looking at least at 3 billion friggin years of looking at rawat. Fuck, where is my medicine?

Wouldn't that make it time for the universe to blow up again? I wonder how rawat will survive the blast?

Salam- the crazy professor

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Date: Wed, Apr 25, 2001 at 04:27:48 (GMT)
From: Sandy
Email: None
To: salam
Subject: You are one funny dude or dudette...
Message:
No disrespect intended, I just don't pay alot of attention to gender in cyberspace. You just made me laugh after a particularly rough day and I think that is a very high thing.
Not that I agree with or disagree with whatever you said, just how you said it was funny and cracked me up. Thank you!
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Date: Tues, Apr 24, 2001 at 15:38:56 (GMT)
From: Prof Heinz Baked-Beans
Email: lab@physics.edu
To: salam
Subject: Rawat will turn to ice
Message:
Hmm, ze latest theory iz zat ze universe will just kind of fade away wizout any big bangs. So zat means zat we will be left in ze dark wiz ze Rawat getting colder und colder until we all freeze.

I zink zat ze science still haz a way to go, yar?

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Date: Wed, Apr 25, 2001 at 10:27:59 (GMT)
From: salam
Email: None
To: Prof Heinz Baked-Beans
Subject: That's a crappy idea
Message:
You can freeze on you own. I am eating beans and having a blast.
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Date: Tues, Apr 24, 2001 at 13:21:31 (GMT)
From: Scott T.
Email: None
To: Sir Dave
Subject: Things that cause me to be full of grate:
Message:
1. No debtor's prisons.
2. Human genome not controlled by insurance industry (yet).
3. GPS (the technological innovation dyslexics have been waiting for).
4. Handheld 'puters and palm devices (the technological innovation procrastinators have been waiting for).
5. Recumbent bicycles. (Now you can ride fast while sitting in a lawn chair.)
6. Bananas.
7. No debtor's prisons.

--Scott

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Date: Tues, Apr 24, 2001 at 09:43:28 (GMT)
From: JHB
Email: None
To: Francesca
Subject: Sandy - PLEASE READ!
Message:
Francesca has expressed far more eloquently some of what I've been trying to say.

Thank you, Fransesca, I'm also so grateful!

John the Grateful Dead fan.

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Date: Wed, Apr 25, 2001 at 14:14:07 (GMT)
From: Sandy
Email: None
To: JHB
Subject: JHB - PLEASE READ!
Message:
So JHB,

I read Francesca's rant on dysfunctional gratitude and how screwed up it can make a person and how great it is to just feel someting and not put labels on it. Of course I agreed with her basic theme. I responded with my thoughts which were summarily reamed and taken as wrong a way as they could be taken.

It's like you want me to talk about cows, but you don't want me to mention milk, moo, horns, hoofs, or anything else that is my direct experience of cows. Damned if I do and damned if I don't in your book, or so it seems. It also seems that you will not have peace with me unless I see all this your way. I do not need that agreement with you to have peace with you.

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Date: Wed, Apr 25, 2001 at 17:24:07 (GMT)
From: PatC
Email: None
To: Sandy
Subject: Yes I judged you as been preachy
Message:
but that's probably the pot calling the kettle black because I know I am too. I guess we'll never see eye to eye. I am an agnostic and you are a believer in ''spirit.''

By agnostic I mean I don't like any totalitarian explanations for anything and prefer just to live with not explaining things that are beyond my current understanding. And for me this world and my life in it are miracles enough for me without looking for something more.

I have wanted to see if anything that I could say would help you free yourself of uncomfortable conflicts but I guess it won't so I'll back off. In the end it is you who will work things out for yourself. I know that I would not like to be given advice all the time so forgive me if I have interfered. I wish you well.

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Date: Wed, Apr 25, 2001 at 17:53:23 (GMT)
From: Sandy
Email: None
To: PatC
Subject: This world and my life are miracles to me too
Message:
I just choose to additionally believe that there is a miracle maker, a part of whom is in me and in everyone else too. I give credit to this formless Being for being the source and creator of the miracles of this world and my life. I respect your right to how you believe and I do not think mine is better or anything like that. Mine works for me and yours works for you. If either of us want to shop around for other ways of seeing it, we are both smart enought ot know that is an option anytime. For now, I say live and let live.

And even if we never see eye to eye, I greet you on the way of Life as we pass and wish you a good and safe journey wherever you are going, and I hope that you can wish me the same.

Namaste
Sandy

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Date: Wed, Apr 25, 2001 at 18:31:05 (GMT)
From: PatC
Email: None
To: Sandy
Subject: Since I first started reading your posts, Sandy
Message:
I have wished you well and will continue to do so. If I had met you many years ago we could have talked as if we were we on the same playing field. As I've said to you before, it took me years to work through parting company with Rev Rawat.

But just because I don't want a Master does not mean that I expect all my dear premie friends to agree with me. I don't ever try to convince them and I won't do it with you. I've always preferred preaching to the choir. Live and let live is a very good recipe. Thanks.

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Date: Wed, Apr 25, 2001 at 01:03:21 (GMT)
From: Sandy
Email: None
To: JHB
Subject: Grateful = Great-full
Message:
JHB,

I read it and I don't relate. I always want to remember that something much greater than the sum total of my personal mortal thoughts, words and deeds dwells inside me as long as I have life, and when that leaves this body, the body has no more use.
I don't say this to put myself down or to stay 'under' the thumb of someone who has spent alot of time reminding me of that presence. I say this because it is the force that drives me to acknowledge this phenom we call being alive. It is the thing that makes my life pricelss whether I am a millionaire or whether I live in a cardboard box. I know that I AM a particle of that experience of Life itself in the clearest reality -we all are- that I am not my body but rather I am the spirit that dwells within it. Knowledge is a great reminder of this reality, notwithstanding anything else Maharaji or any of his people have done or said.

How someone else chooses to express his or her experience of life, gratitude or ingratitude, is a very personal thing that I do not choose to judge. But as for me, I am grateful to have had this chance to say my peace. If someone wants to gush, that's their business. If someone wants to be the strong silent type, that's their business. I am not into grouptalk or groupthink, in either premie or ex-premie jargon. I just like to let it fly. Anyway, I think that the true experience of genuine gratitude cannot be put into words or any outward act, only a symbol of it can make it to the material plane, kind of like love. It's what is going on in one's heart that counts, when all is said and done.

I have said all this because you emphatically pointed me to this thread. I am really not interested in the reviews to my post.

Sandy


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Date: Wed, Apr 25, 2001 at 02:31:10 (GMT)
From: Sandy
Email: None
To: JHB
Subject: And furthermore
Message:
When someone ceases to place value upon something and to be grateful and care-full for that valuable thing, then that thing has lost value for that person and it is therefore more likely to be broken, lost, stolen, abused, forgotten, or actually cease to exist, be destroyed.

That thing could be a piece of jewelry, a CD, a book, a relationship or a life. I know this is a very sensitive issue here as some premies did commit suicide and some here are their friends. I am not a judge of those people by any means, so don't come running at me with all your indignation, any of you. I had friends in my life who ended theirs too, but for other reasons. Your friends and mine lost sight for whatever reason for long enough to allow the thought to enter their brains that life was not worth living. We who remain alive grieve for our friends, more than for anything else we have lost in this life, the lives of loved ones. Why? Because of the very thing that is being refuted here in this thread...gratitude for being alive. Losing sight of that, for whatever reason, allows the thief to come in and steal that most precious of all things we have going for us.
They are all gone and that hurts deeply in a way that will never go away completely. Maybe the reason the hurt doesn't go away over a loved one who has taken their life is that because life IS so valuable and so deserving of that 'terrible thing' called gratitude. Before any of you begin to feverishly take apart my syntax and start to cut me down word for word, take a look at the whole message, for when you start to cut you will lose the essence which is the most important part. The letter kills, but the spirit is life. Look between the lines and into your own life before you start to butcher my words.

And suicide is not the only way one can lose their life over forgetting gratitude. Just being unconscious long enough to step into the path of an oncoming bus or something like that can do it just fine. So therefore, there is established a direct connection between consciousness and life. And there is also a need to be conscious enough to know we have something to be grateful for. How one expresses it, as I said, is a matter of style. But there is no substitue for the genuine article, nor is there a substitute for life. This is the bigtime, no rehearsals.
We are on the air and there are no retakes here.

I think you know what I'm talking about and that is all for now.

Sandy

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Date: Wed, Apr 25, 2001 at 12:56:09 (GMT)
From: Katie H
Email: None
To: Sandy
Subject: 'grateful to' versus 'grateful for'
Message:
Hey Sandy -
I can relate to what Francesca said. I am grateful FOR many things in my life, but I'm not grateful for 'my life' per se - I kinda got stuck with it, and it hasn't been easy in a lot of ways. (I am relatively pragmatic about this - I don't believe in life at all costs!) And I am not grateful TO any supreme (or other) being for the things I am grateful FOR.

This may be weird, but it is how I feel.

TC,
Katie

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Date: Wed, Apr 25, 2001 at 14:23:10 (GMT)
From: Scott T.
Email: None
To: Katie H
Subject: steeped in ignorance
Message:
Katie:

Well, the problem that religious people have is that they don't know *who* to be grateful to, as a general rule. I mean, not *really*. And not knowing that if they claim to be grateful then they're just sort of deceiving themselves and others, which ought to be pretty obvious. I calculate that I'm *willing* to be grateful for life, etc., if I could just figure out what the hell's going on, or at least arrive at a consistent theory. Lacking that, I *can't* really be grateful. It's not actually a matter of choice though.

--Scott

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Date: Wed, Apr 25, 2001 at 14:32:32 (GMT)
From: Sandy
Email: None
To: Scott T.
Subject: being grateful right here right now for no special
Message:
reason other than existence itself....I have had that experience and I have also had times in my life when shit was stacked so high around me that I have lost sight of that simple reality of the joy of being alive. I have been through some very deep depressions and have come out the other side, thank God. If I have to choose which state feels better, getting back to Francesca's good/bad scenarios, for me it definitely feels better to have a sincere and deep appreciation on my desktop at all times through life's trials and tribulations.

If you drop your keys on a dark street at night and you can't find them, and then a car drives by and the headlights illuminate the street and reveal where your keys fell and you pick them up, you may never know who was driving the car. But you can still be grateful for the light that shined on the thing you lost and thank the driver in your heart even though he didn't even know he was helping you. Or better yet, you can thank the 'central clearing house' for sending a car with its brights on down the street you happened to be on. Some might call this superstition, but I don't. Thanking the light and the creator of it can never hurt.

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Date: Wed, Apr 25, 2001 at 15:58:01 (GMT)
From: Scott T.
Email: None
To: Sandy
Subject: being grateful right here right now for no special
Message:
Sandy:

Well, my attitude is: If there *is* a 'central clearing house' then I'm grateful to it, and if there isn't then I'm just relieved that I was damned lucky (and recognize that I won't always be). That attitude avoids 'magical thinking.' I'd also add that not knowing the specific attributes of the 'central clearing house' undermines any impulse to gratitude, or at least dilutes it. It's the 'accountability' thing. Knowing who is accountable, in more than a superficial sense, seems a requirement for sincere and deep gratitude. At least, that's the case for me.

I think you'll find that the 'magical thinking' thing leads you to some very strange places; places I would rather avoid if possible. I think you may also be habitually underselling the emotional advantages of realism, equating it somehow with fatalism. Realism confers an emotional sense of well-being not entirely unlike gratitude.

--Scott

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Date: Wed, Apr 25, 2001 at 16:18:26 (GMT)
From: Sandy
Email: None
To: Scott T.
Subject: the existence of the 'central clearing house'
Message:
Scott,

By 'central clearing house', I mean the interconnectedness of all life and the natural intelligence that 'guides' it when not being screwed with by those cancer-like particles of the whole who think they know better and try to reinvent it, bringing death and disease along with them. Like if you are walking down the street and a tree branch is hanging low and you just notice it a split second before you run into it and your automatic responses cause you to duck and avoid getting a stick in your eye....you did not have to write a memo, do a study or take a survey of your quasibillions of cells as to what action to take, it just happened...I think that this phenom exists from the cellular level all the way up to the cosmic level in a system that is left alone to be itself and not messed with.

Knowledge makes me mindful of that and appreciative of it.

Sandy

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Date: Wed, Apr 25, 2001 at 22:26:40 (GMT)
From: Scott T.
Email: None
To: Sandy
Subject: the existence of the 'central clearing house'
Message:
Sandy:

Hmmm... Sounds like there aren't any difficult choices, tradeoffs, or dilemmas in your universe. Not much room for individualism, either. But real world systems are set up to deal with contention of one kind or another, viewing it as somewhat inevitable, and their success generally depends upon how well they balance conflicting objectives and interests. If you think everything is simple it must be hard to conjure up the motivation to deal with anything that isn't.

On the other hand, there is quite a good argument to suggest that people do cope with problems in a fairly pragmatic way... and one ought to take that into account when talking about social systems. Engineers are responsible for a lot more scientific progress than physicists. But they don't write as well, so most people think it's the other way around.

--Scott

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Date: Wed, Apr 25, 2001 at 08:20:23 (GMT)
From: PatC
Email: None
To: Sandy
Subject: You couldn't resist that sanctimonious PS to your
Message:
SERMON ON GRATITUDE AND HUMILITY
could you Reverend?

Francesca was doing a jokey dance of joy at being free of a silly stultifying religious superstition and you hit her over the head with cliches about humiltity and platitudes about gratitude.

And this peice of sophistry takes the cake: ''Just being unconscious long enough to step into the path of an oncoming bus or something like that can do it just fine. So therefore, there is established a direct connection between consciousness and life.''

That's pure Maharajism. I'm sorry but I guess as long as you take that ignoramus for a Master you won't be able to think like an ordinary reasonable person.

I'm sorry you ignored my two very sympathetic posts to you inviting more sensible discussion but instead chose to stoop so low as to preach about life in mealy-mouthed cliches.

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Date: Wed, Apr 25, 2001 at 13:04:33 (GMT)
From: Sandy
Email: None
To: PatC
Subject: Your sitting in judgement of me is what is
Message:
sanctimonious. Putting a negative spin my efforts to communicate is your shortcoming, not mine.

For all my comments to take the whole message and don't pick apart the syntax went to hell, eh Pat? I'm not here to gain your approval or anyone else's either. I spoke my piece just like Francesca did. I did not judge her and made a point of saying so. You and I have had some connections in the past, but on this one you are being really one-sided about who can express and how. But that is your prerogative.

Sandy

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Date: Wed, Apr 25, 2001 at 02:58:16 (GMT)
From: Sandy
Email: None
To: JHB
Subject: PS
Message:
The seeds of both good and evil are in all of us. Which ones get watered are the ones that will grow, like Frannie said about doing what feels good and what feels bad. Gratitude keeps unseemly pride in check. It is the balance that allows the good to flow and the bad to wither in us, or that's how it looks to me at what feels like a rather clear moment.

Being humble and grateful is not the same as groveling or gushing. That's just a cliche, a stage that people go through to something more subtle if you can hang in there, kiddo.

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Date: Wed, Apr 25, 2001 at 06:19:32 (GMT)
From: Francesca
Email: None
To: Sandy
Subject: Being conscious and awake...
Message:
in its pure state, has nothing to do with gratitude. Gratitude is an emotion. It's some people's reaction to being alive including yours I guess. Gratitude is what manipulative religions preach we should have, and I've been beaten over the head with it for years. And when I say I'm sick of it, now you pick up the stick and give me your sermon. You don't listen and respect people for where they are coming from, dude, you preach to them.

And for someone who was not going to make value judgments, you equate your concept of 'gratitude' with value, with something good and spiritual and my lack of it with something bad. Your concept of gratitude is something that I need to 'hang in there' and get. In the guise of being kind, you're being as insulting as hell, and holier-than-thou.

You also assuming that if someone doesn't 'value' something in the way that you think they should value it, then they will just throw it away. How about just being with it, and not calling it anything at all. I don't wish to cultivate clinging to anything, including life. But I'm not going to throw it away, either.

It's the airy-fairy talk that gets to me. Your view is your prerogative, but I won't measure up to your stick, babe. I am not looking for 'gratitude,' or for life really. I'm here while I'm here, and when I'm gone, I hope that whatever I am can be cool with that as well.

Sandy, I was born this way, and I'm sick of being told I should be grateful for being alive. I'm alive. Big deal. I'm almost 52, and in about 30 years or sooner I'll be dead. If the only thing precious is life, well, I'll be SOL one day, won't I? Or will I? Who knows. I don't trust the people who say they do know, however. So quit preaching to me.

--f

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Date: Wed, Apr 25, 2001 at 17:41:01 (GMT)
From: Sandy
Email: None
To: Francesca
Subject: I just saw REAL gratitude for life on CNN...
Message:
Francesca,

Nice name by the way. I always liked it alot. Is it pronounced fran-CHEZ-ka? Very beautiful name. Really, not just sucking up. Very strong and passionate, two qualities I respect in a person.
I had turned off the Forum on my 'puter and was determined to go take care of some things I have to do. Went upstairs, started to layout my paperwork, turned on the tube for background and was captivated by a story on CNN about a little plane that had to land on only one wheel today - the landing gear had malfunctioned - in Opa Locka, Florida, I think it was. Anyway, it was a great video clip of this guy making a damn near perfect landing on only one wheel. The two guys in the plane scampered away from the aircraft quickly for concern of fire or explosion, which did not happen. The camera stayed on the two guys getting away from their plane. I watched wide-eyed and mouth agape with the corners starting to turn slightly upward in sheer empathy and recognition as those two guys, hugged, kissed, embraced and patted each other on the back with so much high energy. The one who was the passenger affectionately toussled the pilot's hair, with more love and appreciation than the relationships of parent-child, lovers, husband-wife, or friends could muster.
I felt it so strong through the TV, got goose pimples all over
(you can't fake that), and felt most fortunate to have witnessed two grown men drop their male macho cultural homophobic thing and just show each other how happy and grateful they were to be alive. That's what I call gratitude, not the groveling and shucking and jiving that the religions had us all doing for generations. Those guys got a second chance and they knew it.

There was so much juice in seeing that, that I just wanted to share it with you and not be preachy or anything, just try to share a cool story. I have more than one speed, ya know.

Sandy

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Date: Wed, Apr 25, 2001 at 20:14:21 (GMT)
From: Francesca
Email: None
To: Sandy
Subject: Definitely, cool story and good example
Message:
of a definition of gratitude that we both can agree on. AND thanks for sharing it.

Thanks, and re my name, I know you're not sucking up, you're just trying to be friendly and find common ground. That's a good trait in anyone. My name is pronounced kind of the way you said it, I think, but I don't use the accent. Everyone tries to spell it franchesca because of the way I say it.

It is hard to talk via e-mail. You seem to have a need to write reams about the way you see things, and I'm sure I'd get along with you if we were in the same circle. You are a caring, feeling person and once we get entrenched in our ideas the differences probably seem greater than they actually are. I only stay away from abusive people and axe murderers, but even them, I wish them well. (Although I will not wish them success in their perceived endeavors!)

best wishes --f

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Date: Wed, Apr 25, 2001 at 18:33:50 (GMT)
From: Hal
Email: None
To: Sandy
Subject: Gratitude Sucks !
Message:
Suppose I kept telling my kids that they should be grateful to me and their Mom for giving them life and never to forget the kindness we had in giving them life. Wouldn't that be the weirdest and most egotistical trip for a parent to lay on their kids ?

Why would anyone think that if there is a Supreme invisible Creator that they/he/ she/ or it would want humans to be grovelling and saying thank you all the time??

Only a megolomaniac , fat fuck of a gooroo thinks in those terms.

This gratitude trip makes me nauseous.

Hal

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Date: Wed, Apr 25, 2001 at 19:37:33 (GMT)
From: Sandy
Email: None
To: Hal
Subject: Gratitude Sucks !
Message:
Suppose I kept telling my kids that they should be grateful to me and their Mom for giving them life and never to forget the kindness we had in giving them life. Wouldn't that be the weirdest and most egotistical trip for a parent to lay on their kids? -Hal

Not if your kids had a long history of ingratitude as a group and you needed to embed in them the understanding of what it is. Repetition is the mother of learning anything. Let's just say, for the sake of argument, that's what Maharaji is doing and not harping, just re-stating the basic and obvious for the record, to reestablish it in the human psyche. In the Olympics, there are the participants and then there are the timekeepers and the judges. I think Maharaji is one of those guys who reminds us, this is what we have to jump over if you are in this event and the time is ticking. I don't see him as competing in this. -Sandy

Why would anyone think that if there is a Supreme invisible Creator that they/he/ she/or it would want humans to be grovelling and saying thank you all the time?? -Hal

I don't think that is the situation. I think the Supreme invisible Creator, if there is one as you say, just wants us to live and be in the state of gratitude as much for ourselves as for Him/Her/It. It makes me feel more human, more myself. What we say in words is of much less importance than what we are feeling and experiencing. Words are by their own nature are at least one step removed from any experience we are trying to report, and therefore information is inevitably lost. The cliche 'words cannot express' is not a cliche at all, but rather an accurate summation of our communication skills as a species when it comes to our own sentient experience.

Only a megolomaniac , fat fuck of a gooroo thinks in those terms.
This gratitude trip makes me nauseous. -Hal

Did you catch those guys who just landed on one wheel on CNN? I'll bet ya they are going to be grateful for a long, long time and it won't get old a bit....

Hal

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Date: Thurs, Apr 26, 2001 at 06:49:35 (GMT)
From: hal
Email: None
To: Sandy
Subject: Gratitude Sucks !
Message:
Sandy ,

having re-read your post , I suspect that what you are refering to as gratitude ( Maha's spin) could in ordinary terminology be called 'simple appreciation of the good things in life'.

hal

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Date: Thurs, Apr 26, 2001 at 13:50:29 (GMT)
From: Sandy
Email: None
To: Hal
Subject: Gratitude opens positive energy channels
Message:
having re-read your post , I suspect that what you are refering to as gratitude (Maha's spin) could in ordinary terminology be called 'simple appreciation of the good things in life'. -Hal

Hal,

Now I'm not trying to one-up you or drag out this conversation, but there is something that I have to say here for the sake of accuracy. The 'simple appreciation' you speak of above I see as not just for 'the good things IN life', but for Life itself, and in particular the Bestower of it, whatever or whoever you conceive that Bestower to be. For life was bestowed upon us, there is no mistaking that, and for me, when I feel simple appreciation and direct it to the Almighty ____________ (fill in the blank), the giver, it adds a dimension that is not present when I just am grateful for the effects and not the Cause.

Peace,

Sandy

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Date: Thurs, Apr 26, 2001 at 19:17:23 (GMT)
From: Hal
Email: None
To: Sandy
Subject: Gratitude opens positive energy channels
Message:
Gratitude for life itself Hmmm ... Life was bestowed upon us .. you know that for sure? Then you must know who or what bestowed it ??? I don't.

How do you know that we didn't create ourselves or just evolve to a point where we became conscious that we have life ??

You do seem to know a hell of a lot more than li'l ol' me . Is that because you have the true nollij ?

kind regards,
Hal

ps don't feel obliged..

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Date: Thurs, Apr 26, 2001 at 20:35:07 (GMT)
From: Sandy
Email: None
To: Hal
Subject: Gratitude opens positive energy channels
Message:
Hal,

I have no hard copy data, no 8 x 10 glossies with circles and arrows and a paragraph on the back, no proof like that.

But when I look at life and everything in it, I am humbled and I am witness to the evidence surrounding me wherever I am, of a creative entity much smarter and more powerful and loving than myself at this point in time. So I cop to Its presence and give respect to those who make an effort to honestly and sincerely speak on Its behalf.

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Date: Thurs, Apr 26, 2001 at 22:09:12 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Sandy
Subject: Why don't you 'cop to' evolution?
Message:
You know, of course, that evolution is all about explaining life WITHOUT a 'creative entity'? Do you understand the process evolution describes? Do you even see an issue there?
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Date: Thurs, Apr 26, 2001 at 23:47:12 (GMT)
From: Sandy
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: I can't believe you said such a stupid thing
Message:
'You know, of course, that evolution is all about explaining life WITHOUT a 'creative entity'? Do you understand the process evolution describes? Do you even see an issue there?' -Jim

That's like discussing changes in the automotive industry and denying the existence of the designers. I hope you never lose your eyesight because you only seem to believe in what you can physically see...and if you go blind, you won't see anything and you probably won't believe in anything either.

An atheist and a believer in God were standing outside admiring the stars and planets one particularly clear night. The believer praised God for the beauty of the creation and the athiest just cracked on his friend and told him there was no creator, everything just evolved. The believer kept his peace and his silence.

The next day, the believer went to the hobby store and purchased a model solar system mobile. He carefully assembled, glued, strung, painted and hung the piece in his room. His ahteist friend came over and complimented his friend on the mobile and asked who had made it. The believer replied to his athiest friend that no one had made it, it just evolved, with a knowing smile.

hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha

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Date: Wed, Apr 25, 2001 at 21:32:14 (GMT)
From: Hal
Email: None
To: Sandy
Subject: I know where you're coming from Sandy
Message:
I was there too not so long ago but these days it really doesn't make sense to me.

I am . I don't know how I'm here or who put me here. Nature is.

I don't know if the experiences I have had in meditation of light / energy / love , are coming from anywhere outside of ME.

A recent study of meditators by accredited scientists has shown something interesting. Focused meditation as opposed to just sitting , has an effect on the area of the brain which controls our sense of separateness from other and creates a feeling of oneness with all. I think that's great, to feel oneness I mean- but is it REALITY ? It would be kinda absurd to lose your sense of discrimination in some situations wouldn't it?

I try and keep my beliefs to a minimum these days, for the first time ever! I must say I feel able to generate more of what I need and want in life than I was able to with a lot of ideas I'd taken on board from various teachings.

I started at one point asking myself questions and found that I knew very little! I'd say to myself when confronted with someone else's theory -' Do I really know if this is true?'

Going back to the gratitude. This was definitely an idea infiltrated into my awarenes through reading spiritual stuff and mainly from Maharaji.

I don't feel grateful to be alive anymore than I feel grateful to be in a state of wakefulness at this moment rather than being asleep. Maybe there are times to be grateful ie when you mentioned some guys landing on one wheel but maybe there are times to be fucking ungrateful , like when you are being ripped off or tortured or shot or something. I think it would be construed as insanity to be singing the praises of this wonderful life in some situations.

Sometimes I think lifes a bitch, then you fucking die! Other times I feel good. I'm into honesty these days more than any idealistic thinking. It feels so good not to pretend to be a saint , or above it all.

best wishes to you Sandy,

Hal

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Date: Thurs, Apr 26, 2001 at 01:46:14 (GMT)
From: PatC
Email: None
To: Hal
Subject: I know where you're coming from Hal
Message:
You said: ''I'm into honesty these days more than any idealistic thinking. It feels so good not to pretend to be a saint, or above it all.''

Couldn't agree more. I enjoyed your whole post. Thanks

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Date: Thurs, Apr 26, 2001 at 06:45:27 (GMT)
From: Hal
Email: None
To: PatC
Subject: Pat - I love your posts too-thank you nt
Message:
nt
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Date: Wed, Apr 25, 2001 at 23:13:14 (GMT)
From: Francesca
Email: None
To: Hal
Subject: Great post Hal -- some good stuff there n/t
Message:
n/t
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Date: Thurs, Apr 26, 2001 at 06:43:34 (GMT)
From: Hal
Email: None
To: Francesca
Subject: thanks - you started a good thread Francesca nt
Message:
nt
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Date: Wed, Apr 25, 2001 at 12:59:16 (GMT)
From: Sandy
Email: None
To: Francesca
Subject: Being conscious and awake...
Message:
Hi Francesca,

It seems like the ex-premies have poetic license to express however they want, and when a premie takes the same initiative, there is just negative spin all over the place.

I was not preaching, I am not holier than you and I know it, and I was just 52 a few weeks ago. If you perceived that I was being preachy, your perception was wrong. But I am sorry anyway, that there is so much static between us that you did not hear what I was saying or see where I was coming from.

What you describe as the gratitude that you are trying to free yourself from is not really gratitude. It's a guilt and fear laced poisonous mixture of control mechanisms that have been used for ages to control populations by clerics.

I agree that the wordless and labelless experience is higher and better than all the other stuff.

Sandy

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Date: Wed, Apr 25, 2001 at 15:59:49 (GMT)
From: Francesca
Email: None
To: Sandy
Subject: This is an ex-premie forum
Message:
Sandy:

This is an ex-premie forum, if you haven't noticed. There are many days when I see that your discussions, and to be fair, folks discussing things with you, dominate this forum. No one is saying that you can't post on here, but if you can't stand the heat, get out of the kitchen. I'm not going to post my ideas on EV for example (although I'm sure they'd never allow the posts on in the first place), or some other premie forum.

In fact, I was reluctant to respond to your 3 posts, and respond to this one -- because with you, the discussions go on and on and on and don't seem to get anywhere. I don't read most of your posts. Let's agree to disagree.

And again, this is an ex-premie forum. Your point of view is in the minority here. I think it is safe to say that the majority of the people on here don't dislike you as a person, but don't agree with your ideas. So quit whining about it.

I personally have no bad feelings toward you, but I find you as preachy as hell. Your perception is that you are not preaching, but why the heck else do you come on here and try to shovel shit against the tide?

--f

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Date: Wed, Apr 25, 2001 at 16:32:11 (GMT)
From: Sandy
Email: None
To: Francesca
Subject: This is an ex-premie forum and premies are invited
Message:
to attend and participate...'anything and everything' from both premies and ex-premies is welcome according to your forum's intro. If that policy ever gets altered, I promise not to try to storm the gates. That would be preaching in the sense that you are accusing me of.

As I scan up and down the threads, I think you are exaggerating when you say I am domintaing the conversations here. There are many many threads I don't even go near or participate in.

We can agree to disagree, but can you take the spin off it that somehow you are the righteous one and I am off my nut? That is preachy to me.

As for being in the minority, that is of no matter to me. And I'm not whining about anything, just observing and stating my observations.

If we do ever talk again, I will make every effort to be more down to earth and less 'preachy', if by that you mean not be serious and sincere about the most important thing happening to us, that being alive and able to feel good about it. If you want to be happy and grateful in a pure way and not put words on it, great. If I want to wax poetic about the same subject, please allow me the same respect to express myself as you wish to have yourself. If the Golden Rule is being preachy, then dust off the pulpit because here it is...treat me and how I deal with the same respect as how you would like others to treat you and how you deal. It's easy for people of like mind to agree and get along just fine. The proof of the pudding is if we allow others we don't agree with to express and not slam them just because we disagree.

Sandy

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Date: Tues, Apr 24, 2001 at 06:59:30 (GMT)
From: PatC
Email: None
To: Francesca
Subject: Back to your punk roots babe?
Message:
That was too refreshing. I am so fucking gushingly grateful for it. I guess we can expect you to turn up for San Francisco Latvian Pigeon-Fanciers' Night with a new spikey hairdo, black leather and glittery stockings. I hope you don't have any tattoos done while you're in this mood - or piercings. Just kidding but isn't it fun not to believe all that goddam eastern bullshit anymore and to not have to be fucking ''spiritual.''
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Date: Tues, Apr 24, 2001 at 06:07:57 (GMT)
From: Scott T.
Email: None
To: Francesca
Subject: I'm fakking sick of being grapeful
Message:
Francesca:

I thought it was 'greatful' but I must have been thinking of 'grapefruit.' Never could keep that strait.

--Scott

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Date: Tues, Apr 24, 2001 at 02:15:48 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: OK, so you're stuck on a desert island .......
Message:
....and these are your companions. So say, as time goes by you really, really start getting lonely. You need some warmth, some affection. You'll do, say almost anything for just a little lovin'. You're a guy and you want to get laid. Question: who would you pick and what would you be willing to say or do to synchronize with her?

First there's Janice:

When I come into the realm of my heart
I am brought into this most beautiful place,
in my core , in my center.
I am surrounded by love, joy
harmony , and bountiful, sweet happiness.
So delightful, enjoyable I find it to be
my home sweet home, right inside of me.
I love how I was made
who I really am , free.
Free to champion my inner companion.
It is the best kind of fun there is
because it has no ill effects, never turns sour,
like trying to have fun in this world can.
Come, come my friendly master calls
into the inner circle of the heart
where the most fun, enjoyable party is happening,
the eternal party of life.
Overflowing with bliss it is.
I am most thankful
for this invitation to join in the fun
of the inner festival each day.

Then there's Ivette:

My land has so many palm trees
filled with thrushes whose song fills the air.
Our fields are full of beauty and life,
and our lives are full of love.
As my land offers so much,
so the long and lonely nights are dedicated
to the delights of Knowledge.
With our sincere simplicity and joy
we have found the source of the palm trees,
and the bird song that fills the air.

Finally, Eleni:

Since I heard about Amaroo,
every morning,
my heart has been singing...
How wonderful the human heart is
and how thankful I feel
that I possess one.
My heart is my compass
always pointing towards the truth,
always showing me the way,
always yearning for the good,
the beautiful,
the fine.
Always rejoicing at being in such refined company.
My heart beckons my continuously
to focus on he words of my master,
and forever soar
in this aliveness
in this light
in this incredible beauty.

Tough, huh? Well, no one said the spiritual path was easy.

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Date: Tues, Apr 24, 2001 at 09:28:09 (GMT)
From: JHB
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Ivette - she like nature
Message:
She just thinks it comes from some personal feelings she gets from meditating.

John.

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Date: Tues, Apr 24, 2001 at 09:21:15 (GMT)
From: AJW
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Depends on the fauna Jim...
Message:
...if there are melons growing on the island there might be a viable alternative.

A melon doesn't give satsang.
It won't take your house and car when you split up.
You can use the skin at a sunhat.
Melons never fake orgasms.
They always come across on the first date.

Anth the seedy.

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Date: Tues, Apr 24, 2001 at 19:42:17 (GMT)
From: PatC
Email: None
To: AJW
Subject: You mean flora, Anth. I'll take the fauna
Message:
over any of these socalled homo sapiens females. That baboon over there on the coconut tree is beginning to look sexy to me.
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Date: Wed, Apr 25, 2001 at 10:37:26 (GMT)
From: AJW
Email: None
To: PatC
Subject: Pat you're biased.
Message:
You're a friend of my wife, Dorothy.

Anth the crip tic

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Date: Tues, Apr 24, 2001 at 19:07:30 (GMT)
From: GTP
Email: None
To: AJW
Subject: reminds me of a joke:
Message:
This guy is stranded on this island and he naturally yearns for a sexual outlet, but, there being no women (or men) around, he starts finding the island's goats attractive. Despite his best efforts, though, he is unable to catch one.

Anyway, one day a beautiful woman, after falling off a cruise ship one night, swims toward the island. Exhausted, she is close to drowning when the guy spots her and saves her.

She says, 'Thank you thank you thank you! How can I ever repay you for saving my life?! I'll do anything! Anything!'

So he says, 'Really? OK. Can you help me catch a goat?'

Gregg

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Date: Tues, Apr 24, 2001 at 15:26:17 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: AJW
Subject: I dunno, that there Janet's looking pretty darned
Message:
good, eh --


Janice Wilson:

Amaroo wishes

From Baldwinsville, New York

I sure wish that I could be in Amaroo with Maharaji this week. But I know that this love is so big that if I open my heart to it, I will be, feel included. After all he has only told me about a million times, that what I am looking for is inside of me.

So dig I will ! And I love digging up the treasure in my very own heart, so much fun, discovering, uncovering, so much joy, love, all within me. What a gift it is to be a human being, alive, with the pleasure of the gift the master brings for the student. I sure wouldn't want it any other way! Cheers, everyone :)

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Date: Thurs, Apr 26, 2001 at 08:23:18 (GMT)
From: janet
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: WATCH IT, BUDDY! I BITE AND SCRATCH. AND HISS.
Message:
GET BACK ON YOUR OWN SIDE OF THE COURTROOM.
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Date: Thurs, Apr 26, 2001 at 20:23:16 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: janet
Subject: I bet (nt)
Message:
ffffffff
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Date: Tues, Apr 24, 2001 at 15:29:24 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Oops, I meant 'JanICE' -- sheesh! (nt)
Message:
fffffff
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Date: Tues, Apr 24, 2001 at 07:47:31 (GMT)
From: Nigel
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: I'll take Ivette - style a tad more economical..
Message:
..and therefore over soonest.

Honestly, though, these ELK editors publish half a ream of new gopi 'product' on a daily basis with seemingly no baseline for quality. And it just piles up.

If anything, these collected works make the practice of K appear like an obsessive-compulsive disorder - almost as if they're trying to conjure up an experience by chanting in this hyper-ecstatic language.

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Date: Tues, Apr 24, 2001 at 02:25:23 (GMT)
From: TD
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Why not have all three? Maharaji could! (nt)
Message:
nt
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Date: Tues, Apr 24, 2001 at 02:06:23 (GMT)
From: Helen
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: How to Gain Mystical Followers
Message:
I copied and pasted this from an email newsletter I get from a guy named Gary Lee. It's a really interesting newsletter and although I don't agree with 100% of what he says, he always makes me think. I am posting it with his permission:

'Guru-worshipers, channelers, religious fanatics, 'holy rollers', psychics,
self-proclaimed human gods, “thetans”, 'alien abductees', astral and time
travelers, “clears”, prophets, and those with a variety of mystical
experiences, exhibit an array of unusual traits that indicate they have
fantasy-prone personalities. Why are some people so “into” things like
ghosts, alien abductions, past-life regression and other flaky, space cadet
stuff? Why, in an age of science, are ideas without scientific support so
widely held?

Why are we so in love with gurus? What is our big hang up about having a
charismatic holy figure to hang on to? It’s really all about our passion for
mystical guidance. I know a lot of you are into this.

Well, here’s a study that’s basically saying that it’s because the guru
TELLS US WHAT WE WANT TO HEAR. Life’s unknowns make us feel vulnerable and
it’s our insecurity that makes us susceptible to the offer of easy,
no-struggle, lifetime guidance.

Believers easily dismiss a skeptic’s resistance to the guru’s message as
“fear of the awesome truth.” Those who have “seen the light” have
transcended such petty hang-ups like the logical mind. Oh yeah - right!
Unbelievers are supposedly relying too much on “the mind” and refuse to
listen to their heart. “You should trust your dreams, your intuition and
your longing for transcendence. You should surrender to your heart and not
your head.” “If you have imagined that you have lived in a previous life or
dreamt you have been abducted by aliens, you probably have.”

Gurus 'have all the answers,' so they can quell your fears. “There is no
death.” “I have the truth. I will lead the way.” That’s their usual message.
And this release from the fear is easily obtained. The peace and
enlightenment offered by most modern gurus doesn’t require a lifetime of
discipline. It requires only that you suspend your critical judgment, attend
their lectures, seminars, meditations and workshops, or buy their books and
tapes.

I have my own explanation for all of this, but I must be careful not to
offend anyone with my bluntness. It’s too easy to just say, “Hey! Get a
life!” Such crude frankness won’t fly too far. I’m way too tough because I
used to be into all of this.

I know that if you are really wrapped up in the Guru Trip, all the answers
are worked out for you ahead of time from on high. On the other hand, some
of you are tired of being assaulted by this kind of thing and are trying to
think rationally about it. Maybe this study can help you pick your way
through all of this.

Researchers have listed certain identifying characteristics of people who
fantasize profoundly. Cursory examinations by psychologists and
psychiatrists might find such subjects to be perfectly normal, while more
detailed knowledge about the person’s background and habits would reveal to
a trained observer a pattern of fantasy proneness.

Researchers note that mystical subjects exhibit such symptoms as being
easily hypnotized, having vivid memories, and experiencing waking dreams, as
well as being readers of occult, 'spiritual' and highly imaginative novels.
Subsequent studies by others drew similar conclusions.

The criteria for mystic-proneness – and openness for the guru’s message -
generally includes such features as having a rich fantasy life, showing high
hypnotic susceptibility; claiming psychic abilities and healing powers,
reporting out-of-body experiences and vivid or 'wide-awake' dreams, having
apparitional experiences and religious visions, and viewing events in terms
of omens.

In one study of otherwise normally functional individuals who reported they
had been abducted or had persistent contacts with gods, angels, or
extraterrestrials, almost all of them had one or more major characteristics
of fantasy-prone personalities.

Conversion, Persuasion, Hypnosis And “Master Manipulation” Tactics Used By
Guru’s And Mass Movements

Here are some techniques used on mystical, fantasy-prone personalities to
obtain fake self-esteem, unearned power, money, sex, adulation, respect,
worship, followers, odd satisfaction, goodies, suckers, etc.

· Shock and confusion techniques

· Bringing up old negative feelings

· Purging of old repressed emotions (through “venting” and catharsis)

· Expectation (of heavens blessings, paradise, nirvana, etc.), claimed
benefits

· Staged spectacles

· Bombardment (with lectures, scriptural studies, love, etc.) - they try to
shower you with affection and brotherhood to make you feel like part of a
special group (this works very well on insecure types from dysfunctional
families)

· Insider lingo is used to make you feel part of the group, as is jargon,
foreign words/languages, and metaphysical-new age-cosmic
bullshit-non-sequitur distractions

· They often try to get you to admit to your secret 'sins' or skeletons in
your closet- so they can use it as leverage and control

· They preach that you should sacrifice for 'the truth', 'duty', 'good',
'the cause', 'higher powers', 'God', 'the system', 'minority rights', etc.

· Charismatic leadership is very effective - the leaders are really
cool-looking, attractive, look the part, appears sincere/humble or powerful

· Half truths, (some valid stuff mixed with B.S.), non-sequiturs, out of
context, specious, inspirational, wimpy, positive, airy fairy thinking type
approaches work on most people

· They employ parables, slogans, proverbs, chants, truisms, quotes, poems,
twisted logic

· Leaders and followers have 3 distinct, noticeable, hypocritical attitudes;

(1) Selflessness and humble seriousness and (2) bliss, joy, prayerful
ecstasy when the group convenes, but they (3) let go of these phony masks
and act ‘worldly’ - just like most anyone else afterwards, or when no one is
looking.

· They often use pressure, coercion, fear, threats of hell or “illusion
taking you over,” damnation, stress, tense scheduling, uncertainty,
agreements, guilt, proselytizing, 'sell-it-by-zealot', dogma, blame,
mystical claims, expectations, doom saying, Satan, Armageddon, etc.

· Obligation, 'duty', “you must do this and that”, “You must surrender!” -
lots of 'you shoulds' are very useful. They try to appear 'for your own
good', necessary, 'spiritual', harmless

· You must 'have faith' and throw away/rise above reason

· Mass movements tend to spawn fanatic followers (zealots, true believers,
activists)

· Strange or unaccustomed diets, diet cultism, 'sacraments', 'magic
bullets', are sometimes effective in changing your blood chemistry, and can
keep you feeling 'spacey'

· Imbedded Commands.

· Left-Brain Distraction.

· Pavlovian conditioning

· The Voice-Roll Techniques used by hypnotists, lawyers and preachers.

· 'Sell It By Zealot': a technique that subverts positive human values.

· Born-Again hypnosis and conversion.

· Thought-Stopping Techniques: used by cults and military to make the mind
to go 'flat.'

· New Age “trance induction”

· Offering of lifetime guidance (has 'all the answers'), no effort/easy way
answers, 'solves all problems', “If it’s not in my book or our leader
doesn’t teach it, it is no good”

· Tries to appear 'scientific'

· Isolation from society (Us vs. Them)

Rarely does a person who is being bamboozled by these tactics realize it at
the time. In fact, many of these techniques can leave you in a
semi-permanent, altered state.

Knowledge of these methods is the best way to protect yourself better
against mind-altering conversion from politicians, gurus, lawyers, fire and
brimstone preachers, media, government agencies, cults, human potential
training groups, fanatics, new age/occult groups, Moonies, dictators,
born-again redneck fundamentalists, trained spellbinders, special cause
groups, communists, some business rallies, as well as by 'cosmic foo-foo's'
('cosmic foo-foos' are those evading reality in groundless, goofy, New Age
and other mystical illusions).

The way to reveal the brainwashing schemes or behavior is to broadcast its
deceptions. Don’t expect mass media to help much in this regard since they
reap many of its benefits.

Politicians, born-again preachers, cult leaders, human-potential training,
U.S. intelligence and Armed Services as well as sales people are also
actively using many of these persuasion techniques and subtle manipulative
methods.

Realize that the jargon taught in the seminar supports their programming. If
you associate with people in your group who use 'forum-speak' or special
lingo, you reinforce the 'us versus them' indoctrination.'

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Date: Tues, Apr 24, 2001 at 14:09:35 (GMT)
From: Scott T.
Email: None
To: Helen
Subject: How to Gain Mystical Followers
Message:
Helen:

In one study of otherwise normally functional individuals who reported they
had been abducted or had persistent contacts with gods, angels, or
extraterrestrials, almost all of them had one or more major characteristics
of fantasy-prone personalities.

I find that there's a burgeoning industry that purports to understand these things, but ironically demontrates the very conditions it supposedly studies. In other words, it looks like 'bad science' in the service of emotional security. What's the difference between the above statement and a similar statement based on the coincidences observed in astrology? What does 'one or more major characteristics of fantasy-prone personalities' mean? Clearly this stuff is post-coded, so it's all a sort of self-fulfilling prophesy... as is so much of modern psychology. I mean, who *doesn't* have one or more of these characteristics, and what about the people who are pretty clearly unimaginative but who have had some of these experiences? What theory explains that? No, this looks to me like science grasping at straws. A real scientific finding would be far more tentative given this sort of 'evidence.' As such, it would be far less 'reassuring,' and the damn books wouldn't sell.

--Scott

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Date: Tues, Apr 24, 2001 at 12:23:25 (GMT)
From: Bryn
Email: None
To: Helen
Subject: What a Menu! Have fallen for and used many!
Message:
I don't know how to stop! Its all I know.
Love Bryn
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Date: Tues, Apr 24, 2001 at 10:04:02 (GMT)
From: Nigel
Email: None
To: Helen
Subject: Thanks, Helen - I think his analysis...
Message:
...was spot-on in some respects, notably the observable characteristics of cult belief systems and behaviour, but somewhat off the mark in his identifying of 'fanatasy-prone' personalities and that woolly stuff about susceptibilty to 'hypnotism' and 'left-brain distraction'.

I don't believe there is anything to distinguish a potential cult recruit from anybody else, nor any deliberate brainwashing involved. In most cases I think the most powerful draw is the friendship, inspiration and seeming 'normality' of existing cult members - people so obviously NOT brainwashed, you feel safe to venture further in.

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Date: Tues, Apr 24, 2001 at 14:16:58 (GMT)
From: Scott T.
Email: None
To: Nigel
Subject: Thanks, Helen - I think his analysis...
Message:
Nige:

I don't believe there is anything to distinguish a potential cult recruit from anybody else, nor any deliberate brainwashing involved. In most cases I think the most powerful draw is the friendship, inspiration and seeming 'normality' of existing cult members - people so obviously NOT brainwashed, you feel safe to venture further in.

I think we see eye to eye on this stuff. The primary characteristic of a cult follower is the fact that he or she is human. Any other correlations would only serve to illustrate, or draw in relief, what these characteristics are (as opposed to some idealized logic). This is not a vain exercise, but the results wouldn't let anyone off the hook. It would just lead to a better understanding of the human condition, and possibly better public policy.

--Scott

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Date: Tues, Apr 24, 2001 at 20:58:57 (GMT)
From: Helen
Email: None
To: Scott T./Nige
Subject: playing survivor
Message:
Good points, you guys. One of the variables I see again and again with this cult stuff is that there are so many variables, making the fact of 'being human' the only consistent variable. You are right. As far as research goes, I am still trying to weed out the child care research for my own edification and it's nearly impossible, so you are right about that, too. Methodology for social science is full of its own variables.

I do agree with Gary Lee that our lives (especially those of Americans) are pretty mundane today. In yesteryear, people may have dabbled in the occult here and there, but really didn't have time to worry about such things as there was too much work to do just to survive.

Case in point--Scott, did you see that article in the Washington Post Style section a few weeks ago about the lawyers who got lost on a mountain in Colorado (in the snow, freezing temps, at night)? They actually thought twice about asking the sheriff's dept to send a search party, until one couple in the party, who were new parents, said 'damn straight we want a search party! Enough of playing 'survivor'-- we've got a kid at home who is counting on us!'

Our ancestors would have had much more fear and respect for nature than these guys AND would have been better prepared. My point is (and I did have one), life is too cushy for us nowadays, so we crave extremes --either of the 'natural' or paranormal variety.

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Date: Wed, Apr 25, 2001 at 04:42:51 (GMT)
From: Scott T.
Email: None
To: Helen
Subject: playing survivor
Message:
Helen:

Yes, people were more concerned with the excitement of just surviving in yesteryear. That could explain the fascination with reality TV. But..., I don't want to go back. I prefer to see it as though we never had the time to be concerned about the right things before, and now we don't know enough to be concerned about the right things. And, come to think of it, I'm pretty wrapped up in survival, but it's more like dredging up enough extra money to pay for the dental work with all the expenses of insurance and payments on student loans and taxes and whatnot. So, we have all this *crap* going on, because we still aren't concerned about the right things, and we're still preoccupied with survival. It's just that the survival is so... boring and unrewarding. But, I really hate getting lost in the wilderness. I HATE it. I'd much rather be bored.

And you can't base a society on contracts, which appears to be the current liberal fantasy. Society is based on love, loyalty and patriotism, not contracts. People who think they can keep 'business' separate from love, friendship, and loyalty are just poops, and there are way too many poops around.

--Scott

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Date: Wed, Apr 25, 2001 at 14:05:28 (GMT)
From: Nigel
Email: None
To: Scott T.
Subject: Good post, but why 'patriotism'?
Message:
As far as I can see it tends to breed hatred for foreigners and ethnic sub-groups. Patriotism was the rallying banner for 'ethnic cleansing' to be carried out in the Balkans and it must have fuelled countless similar atrocities through the centuries.

Also, isn't Dubya's misguided economic patriotism behind his ripping up of the Kyoto agreement?

No, stuff patriotism - let's have a global village which focuses on universal problems and solutions.

Nige the human racist.

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Date: Wed, Apr 25, 2001 at 16:17:02 (GMT)
From: Scott T.
Email: None
To: Nigel
Subject: Good post, but why 'patriotism'?
Message:
Nige:

David Gautier is more eloquent on this issue of patriotism than I. I see it in somewhat the same sense as love. One can always he misguided, but that's not the best reason to avoid it. Essentially patriotism says 'I am willing to sacrifice my life for the sake of the continued existence of this collection of social rules,' even when there is nothing about the collection that would confer an individual benefit over the competing set. Without the potential for that kind of 'selfless' act then larceny and authoritarianism would have a decided advantage.

For instance, there is nothing about the US Constitution that actually binds subsequent generations to those principles, or would even suggest that adherence to the prinicples doesn't consistently work against certain individuals in the society (youth, for instance). In other words, there is no legalistic or social/logical/communitarian argument for adherence to the Constitution in the absence of the imposition of force, other than simple patriotism. (This also applies to 'unwritten' constitutions.)

--Scott

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Date: Tues, Apr 24, 2001 at 06:25:48 (GMT)
From: Loaf
Email: None
To: Helen
Subject: Thanks Hel ... It rings bells :0) (nt)
Message:
ark yarp yabber
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Date: Tues, Apr 24, 2001 at 02:28:03 (GMT)
From: PatC
Email: None
To: Helen
Subject: That's good, Helen. Thanks for posting it. NT
Message:
h
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Date: Tues, Apr 24, 2001 at 00:11:04 (GMT)
From: jondon
Email: None
To: Salam
Subject: Salam...How's the weather...
Message:
in the Ivory Rock area this week? From what I have seen on the net it looks like they could'nt have picked a better week. 70's in the day 60's in the evening. By his grace, of course.
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Date: Tues, Apr 24, 2001 at 14:00:30 (GMT)
From: salam
Email: None
To: jondon
Subject: Hurricans are predicted for next week
Message:
and that's no bull.
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Date: Tues, Apr 24, 2001 at 10:03:58 (GMT)
From: janet
Email: None
To: jondon
Subject: same as i have here at home in venice. ahhhh
Message:
no need to go anywhere.
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Date: Mon, Apr 23, 2001 at 21:55:11 (GMT)
From: Gerry
Email: gkl1@techline.com
To: Everyone
Subject: Is it OK to cuss here?
Message:
Hi everyone,

The Forum has been quite interesting lately, but I've little time to read or respond since I'm too busy doing all the household stuff, trying to get another business off the ground, and taking care of Patty AFTER SOME BUTTWIPE DRIVER WITH HER HEAD UP HER ASS HIT PATTY WHILE PATTY WAS IN THE CROSSWALK ATTEMPTING TO CROSS THE STREET !!!

Sheesh, fuck, shit, damn, hell, piss, peas and garbanzo beans!

PS to Sandy: I have a simple little business idea in which you might be interested. Drop me an e-mail if so.

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Date: Thurs, Apr 26, 2001 at 08:40:28 (GMT)
From: salam
Email: None
To: Gerry
Subject: I don't know what cuss is
Message:
but if you want, I can go and run that character down?

Also, don't know who Patty is (wife?) but I hope she will be ok. I had a car accident years ago and I am lucky I was alive. Cruches for six months and never really healed.

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Date: Tues, Apr 24, 2001 at 01:13:17 (GMT)
From: Katie H
Email: None
To: Gerry
Subject: Well, sheesh!
Message:
Hey Gerry -
I'm really sorry to hear about Patty's accident! Here in Blacksburg, the kids on campus walk out directly in front of cars with no hassle - I'm sorry she got stuck with someone that wasn't paying attention (but the county should take care of it pronto, IMHO!)

I was on crutches for 7 weeks last fall (broken foot) and they suck! I never got used to walking on mine - and I found out how many supposedly 'handicapped-accessible' buildings were NOT.

I hope Patty recovers soon - and that she gets a temporary handicapped sticker (they really do help.)

Love to both of you -
Katie

P.S. Fun fact : did you know that 'sheesh' (as used by me) came from a bulletin board Brian used to post on where one wasn't allowed to swear? I've used it on other similar forums, and it is contagious.

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Date: Mon, Apr 23, 2001 at 22:04:12 (GMT)
From: Mickey the Pharisee
Email: None
To: Gerry
Subject: Cuss all you want!
Message:
Sheesh, Gerry!
Is Patty going to be alright? How fast was this person going?
Was the driver running a red light? I was hit by a car when I was a teen, and it was not fun.

When I was in Berkeley, we could walk across the street backwards, wearing a blindfold and the cars had to stop the minute one's foot came off the sidewalk, but here in Panama anything goes! People dart across the street from every direction, busses and taxis stop in the middle of the road, and the majority of the drivers seem to make up rules as they go along. People get hit by busses all the time here.

I hope that Patty will be alright, and I'll keep you both in my prayers.

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Date: Mon, Apr 23, 2001 at 21:59:16 (GMT)
From: Tony
Email: None
To: Gerry
Subject: I don't fucking well see why fucking well not.NT
Message:
LOL
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Date: Mon, Apr 23, 2001 at 21:58:28 (GMT)
From: PatC
Email: None
To: Gerry
Subject: Is it OK to cuss here? Yes! Is Patty all right?
Message:
That's terrible, Gerry. Please answer and say how she is.

That's why I will never carry a gun. I would shoot too many drivers.

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Date: Mon, Apr 23, 2001 at 22:18:28 (GMT)
From: Gerry
Email: None
To: PatC
Subject: Is Patty all right? Yes
Message:
Although she will be laid up for some time, Patty's doing better than she was last Tuesday. She was able to back pedal when she saw the driver was aiming straight for her apparently not seeing her. She was hit in the left leg and knocked down. The car ended up a full car length past her before it could stop, so I don't think this driver was going fast, since she had just turned the corner. It could have been much worse and for that I'm feeling TRUE graditude (not the phony baloney gooroo version.)

Her knee is very swollen and sore but she has no fractures and is getting around on crutches pretty well now. She's had a lot of pain and discomfort and of course, it fucked up her life. She has been attending college as well as going to work and is afraid this is gonna blow her straight A average!

It was a county employee and county vehicle that struck her so this is going to get interesting. Thanks to everyone for their prayers and concern. It feels good.

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Date: Thurs, Apr 26, 2001 at 08:17:20 (GMT)
From: bill
Email: None
To: Gerry
Subject: Hi Gerry, hope she does well....nt
Message:
fgsdsf
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Date: Tues, Apr 24, 2001 at 16:15:59 (GMT)
From: Scott T.
Email: None
To: Gerry
Subject: Oops, two-legged.
Message:
Gerry:

Saw the 'back pedal' term, and figured she must have been on a bike (although crossing the street in the crosswalk on a bike is *not* the appropriate thing to do.) I assume she was walking? When I was a kid drivers were required to stop if anyone was in the crosswalk, no matter where they were. I've noticed that in Northern Virginia drivers tend not to stop or even slow down, and have wondered what the legal status of that must be. Clearly there isn't any attempt to prosecute these cases, no matter what the law is. I've thought of tossing a big fat tomato at the windshield of drivers who roar through crosswalks while I'm in them, but am pretty sure that would get the wrong person in trouble. Still, would feel great though. Best of luck in your action.

--Scott

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Date: Tues, Apr 24, 2001 at 15:49:28 (GMT)
From: Scott T.
Email: freewheeling@bigfoot.com
To: Gerry
Subject: Two wheeled advocacy.
Message:
Gerry:

One of my pet peeves is the difference between the way the motorcycle advocacy groups deal with these kinds of 'accidents,' and the way bicycle advocacy groups choose to deal with them. If you hit a motorcyclist you'll end up in some sort of guaranteed court dispute, since their policy is to aggressively pursue both criminal and civil actions wherever they can. Their motto is 'Hit a motocyclist, go to jail.' While they're not able to win every case, especially where the fault clearly doesn't lie with the automobile driver, the implication is clear.

In contrast, if you hit a bicyclist chances are you'll get away with it no matter who's at fault, since bicycle advocacy groups like the League of American Bicyclists (This is the wimpy PC renaming of the League of American Wheelmen. Somehow 'LAB' doesn't convey quite the same thing as 'LAW.') has never supported a criminal or civil action against a wayward 'cager,' yet has the gall to ask for contributions. The underage driver who wantonly killed Judy Flannery in Nokesville, VA (a world class tri-athlete) got a modest reprimand and the adult in the car wasn't even charged. (This may have been the other way around. I can't recall for sure.) Given those kinds of incentives I can't see why every psychopathic driver isn't targetting bicyclists. I wonder what it would take to change things? There is supposedly some new administration in LAB, but I haven't seen a change in policy yet, and won't contribute any of my money until I do.

--Scott

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Date: Tues, Apr 24, 2001 at 00:46:53 (GMT)
From: PatC
Email: None
To: Gerry
Subject: My wishes for Patty's full recovery of her health
Message:
AS WELL AS DAMAGES! I hope she gets compensated well and quickly. My prayers for your success with this too.
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Date: Mon, Apr 23, 2001 at 22:37:47 (GMT)
From: Francesca
Email: None
To: Gerry
Subject: Is Patty all right? Yes
Message:
Well I may as well join the pile on. I've got so many people I'm sending good wishes to each day that I'm sure to remember to do it. Best to both of you.

Hope Patty heals quickly.

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Date: Mon, Apr 23, 2001 at 20:56:29 (GMT)
From: EV
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: Help Wanted
Message:
Recent developments have affected our level of participation and distribution. It seems with the slowing economy and bankruptcy of moral values, the market for spiritual gurus has been adversely affected. Though our imported wunderkind from India has been our main focus thus far, waning numbers has forced us to re-structure and begin the search for new Lords of the Universe.

As such, we are now accepting new clients and actively scouting potential messiahs. We feel we have a lot to offer to such a candidate. Our resources are quite diverse; from video tapes to satellite broadcasts as well as engineering multi-national live appearances. Our structure, staff and experience is quite versatile and reliable. The real crux of our resources are thousands of volunteers willing to blindly contribute time, labor and funds. We've the highest expertise in the exploitation of the faithful.

Please submit your current flock statistics along with a resume and scripture to EVFORYOU.org

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Date: Tues, Apr 24, 2001 at 02:21:48 (GMT)
From: PatC
Email: None
To: EV
Subject: I nominate Rev Schmitz as the next Perfect Master
Message:
Dear EV,

The problem with your current Lord of the Universe is that he makes up the rules as he goes along and then has to tell fibs about his past mistakes. Rev Schmitz knows exactly how to make rules and enforce them.

He also does not have any sentimental hang-ups about trying to be nice and letting everyone love him. He will be completely happy to be hated by everybody because he is used to it. Because they are no longer in fashion or given much respect anymore, whatever Perfect Master you pick will be criticized and villified so you might as well pick one who enjoys it and has a streak of masochism.

It also helps for a Perfect Master to be cruel, almost psychopathically sadistic because he must be able to ignore the suffering of his devotees as he bankrupts them with his greedy follies and ruins their family lives and crushes careers.

So I nominate Rev Schmitz. Anyone second that.

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Date: Wed, Apr 25, 2001 at 16:16:45 (GMT)
From: Rev Schmitz
Email: None
To: PatC
Subject: No,no Pat. Me and you together. With your...
Message:
creative and eloquent flair for describing the techniques and practice of them,combined with my 'muscle' and ability to keep the masses in place, we'd be a one-two punch that could rock!

We could be the new millenium's version of Charanand/Fakiranand, or Padarthanand/Sampuranand, or Mutt/Jeff, Laurel/Hardy, ...think about it, possibilities are endless!

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Date: Wed, Apr 25, 2001 at 17:09:47 (GMT)
From: PatC
Email: None
To: Rev Schmitz
Subject: Thanks for offer, Rev but I don't like gurujism NT
Message:
l
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Date: Tues, Apr 24, 2001 at 10:10:08 (GMT)
From: janet
Email: None
To: PatC
Subject: I nominate Bill Gates as the next Perfect Master
Message:
david smith can be a headstone, for all i care.
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Date: Thurs, Apr 26, 2001 at 06:55:34 (GMT)
From: such
Email: None
To: janet
Subject: how 'bout Robin Williams! [nt
Message:
nt
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Date: Thurs, Apr 26, 2001 at 07:51:12 (GMT)
From: PatC
Email: None
To: such
Subject: Robin Williams? And Dreams May Come or
Message:
whatever that movie was called with the wonderful animation done like paintings of the masters and the terrible new age cliches.

I bought my first computer (a Commodore 64) at Sears in San Francisco while he was buying one too in 81 or 82. He wanted his for playing games and I for the word processing. Chuck, who was with me, had darshan from him.

Yes, he'd make a good Perfect Master. A big fake (with not a patch on the real Patch Adams) with cute and endearing traits.

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